Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber
1 Monday, 8 April 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to say something with
7 respect to the last day we had here, and I have some complaints to make.
8 As we're going to --
9 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Milosevic, we must now get on with this
10 case. If you have complaints about the last day, we will deal with
11 administrative matters at the end of the case -- at the end of the
12 morning, rather. I have some matters to deal with myself, and we'll hear
13 you then.
14 Yes, Mr. Nice. We have received the atlas here, which can be
15 exhibited, given an appropriate number in due course.
16 MR. NICE: The accused has only just received it. Other maps have
17 been either Exhibit 3 or 4. Whether this, because it includes both area
18 maps and town maps, might be 3A, I don't know; alternatively, given a
19 second number. It's comparatively easy to follow. I can explain it now
20 or later.
21 JUDGE MAY: Have you a witness here?
22 MR. NICE: We have two witnesses, for whom full protective
23 measures have been granted and whose evidence is to be heard in closed
25 JUDGE MAY: In that case, we had better deal with administrative
Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber
1 matters now. There are some matters I want to deal with.
2 The first point is to alert the parties and the Prosecution to
3 some matters we are going to deal with later this week. The first is the
4 Registrar's report on Defence facilities, which has been made available.
5 We will take that together with a request which has been made by the
6 accused to the Registry that he be permitted to forward relevant Tribunal
7 documents, including witness statements and summaries, to his associates.
8 That can be clarified at the hearing.
9 The second matter we'll deal with later in the week is the
10 admissibility of the binder evidence. A binder has been provided by the
11 Prosecution relating to Bela Crkva. The Chamber has looked at it and we
12 would wish to hear submissions about it before we make a ruling on its
14 We have also received from the Prosecution a position paper
15 regarding the length of the case. We wish to discuss that later this
16 week, when the parties have seen it. However, we would make these
17 observations: that we have ourselves been reviewing the progress of the
18 case. We are concerned at its potential size and length. We have only
19 exercised our powers under Rule 73 bis in relation to the Kosovo
20 indictment. We will have to consider those powers in relation to the
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina indictment after submission of the pre-trial
22 brief. We will expect the Prosecution to tailor its case in order to
23 ensure that a reasonable number of witnesses are called and there is a
24 reasonable time estimate. We will wish to consider, with the Prosecution,
25 whether the full extent of the case as pleaded should be presented, in
Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber
1 particular, the very large number of municipalities involved in the Bosnia
2 indictment. And it may be that the case can properly be put before the
3 Court by a smaller representative number and that similar appropriate
4 reductions may be made elsewhere.
5 We have in mind considering, at this stage, so that the parties
6 are fully aware of the position, imposing a time limit for the whole
7 Prosecution case, bearing in mind the interests of justice, which include
8 the ability of an accused to defend himself against the various charges
9 and also the public interest in ensuring that justice is done
10 expeditiously. Clearly, before any such order is made, there must be the
11 opportunity for the Prosecution to address us, and in that connection, the
12 Prosecution should, by the end of the week, be able to give us an estimate
13 of the time which they contemplate will be taken in their case and an
14 estimate of the total number of witnesses. These are all matters which
15 can be dealt with at the end of this week, we have in mind.
16 Now, unless there are any matters which anybody wants to make,
17 raise in relation to that, I propose next to deal with a ruling which the
18 Prosecution -- which the Trial Chamber are going to give in relation to
19 scope of cross-examination, having heard submissions from the Prosecution
20 and the other parties.
21 I understand the interpreters have copies of this. The --
22 Mr. Nice, if you'd like to take a seat.
23 The Trial Chamber invited submissions from the Prosecution and the
24 amicus on the scope of cross-examination in this case. We have now
25 received these submissions and considered them. This is our ruling:
1 Summarising the submissions, they are these: The Prosecution
2 submits that cross-examination on the activities of the KLA and the NATO
3 bombing should be permitted only to the extent that they are potential
4 sources of legal defence. It should be for the accused to establish the
5 relevance of cross-examination to the factual or legal issues. They
6 further submit that when the interests of justice so require, the Trial
7 Chamber may curtail comments, repetition, and argument during
8 cross-examination, together with overly-personal questions.
9 On the other hand, the amici point out that the same expectation
10 and performance cannot be expected from a litigant in person, who is
11 traditionally given more leeway, and the Court can exercise control by
12 ruling that a certain approach is impermissible or by extemporary
13 rulings. They submit that the accused should be entitled to continue with
14 his defence relating to KLA activity and NATO bombing in order to justify
15 the conduct of the Serb forces and to establish, one, what damage was
16 caused by the bombing and, two, what aggression was carried out by the
17 KLA. They also point out that this line of cross-examination is relevant
18 to the credibility of witnesses. They further submit that this
19 cross-examination does not fall foul of the principle prohibiting tu
20 quoque defences, that is, attempting to justify a party's own conduct by
21 reference to the unlawful conduct of another party, since the accused is
22 asserting that he was acting in defence of his territory and people.
23 The Trial Chamber agrees with the amici, both as to the scope of
24 cross-examination and to its conduct. We are satisfied that the accused
25 is entitled to raise issues concerning the activities of the KLA and the
1 NATO bombing since both are relevant to his case as a potential defence.
2 He is further entitled to put specific instances to witnesses as part of
3 his case and to test the witnesses' credibility.
4 Meanwhile, the Trial Chamber, while recognising the leeway which
5 must be given to a litigant in person, will continue to exercise control
6 over the cross-examination in order to prevent irrelevant questions,
7 comment, and argument. In this connection, it is particularly important
8 in a case of this size to avoid needless consumption of time.
9 The Trial Chamber has noted a tendency on the part of the accused
10 towards lengthy questions and speech-making. While making all due
11 allowance for the difficulties facing a person defending himself in person
12 and the fact that the accused is not a professional advocate, the Trial
13 Chamber, in the interests of justice, will continue to place time limits,
14 where required, on cross-examination of witnesses. Adequate time will be
15 allowed for reasonable and proper cross-examination, but time should not
16 be wasted, and witnesses should not be subject to unnecessary,
17 argumentative, or repetitious cross-examination.
18 That is our ruling. We will hear any matters which the parties
19 wish to raise on other matters since this is convenient.
20 Is there anything the Prosecution wants to raise at this stage?
21 MR. NICE: Nothing. At some stage I want to help you understand
22 the map. It won't take very long.
23 JUDGE MAY: Well --
24 MR. NICE: We'll do it straight away?
25 JUDGE MAY: We'll do it straight away.
1 MR. NICE: It's a slightly technical document and I think it can
2 be useful. I found it -- I've only had my copy of the map this morning,
3 having seen it earlier but not retained a copy. The pages I think that
4 will help us most, starting at the beginning, are Roman numeral i, the
5 Contents page, particularly because it identifies, starting at pages 18,
6 on the left-hand side, those towns for which we have town maps - I don't
7 think they are otherwise indexed - starting with Prishtine and Decan, and
8 so on. So page i shows where we have town maps.
9 The following pages, ii and iii, are obviously useful, just
10 providing, on the left-hand side, an area map, as is Roman pages iv and v,
11 which gives an interesting view of the topography of the area generally.
12 Thereafter, I think there are three pages that will help the Chamber find
13 its way through the map.
14 The first is at Roman x which -- and xi. X shows, on the
15 left-hand side, the various references to either United Kingdom, United
16 States, or Yugoslav military map numbers should we need matters in
17 detail. There are three superimposed grids there that give the relevant
18 map number, should we need to find them.
19 Roman numeral xi simply identifies in the conventional way which
20 pages that follow give which particular parts of the map. So starting on
21 from there, we have the conventional atlas, which is useful.
22 The town maps begin at 18 and, as I say, are only indexed, at
23 least so far as I've been able to discover, at the beginning of the book.
24 Then the next most helpful page for the Court will be, ordinary
25 numerals, page 45, which explains the index, although I still haven't
1 worked out one reference. And page 45 has the municipalities rather
2 helpfully set out for us on 1 to 30, with the map setting out which the
3 municipalities are. And if we then take, simply as an example, the very
4 first listed town, Abri e Eperme, we see that it's in municipality 3. I'm
5 afraid the following codes I can't fully explain, or indeed explain at the
6 moment, but it can then be found on ordinary page 6, with a conventional
7 atlas grid reference N15. So that that page and the following pages will
8 enable us to find towns or villages on the ordinary page numbers. They
9 can also tell us in which municipality a town or village lies, and the
10 earlier pages will help us find our way around the map otherwise.
11 Nothing else at this stage, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, a comment with respect
14 to the request made by the other side to limit the cross-examination when
15 we're talking about NATO-pact forces and their activities and the KLA and
16 the explanation given in that regard.
17 I would like to make things quite clear. It is not a question of
18 any kind of justification for crimes, alleged crimes of the army of
19 Yugoslavia and the police, by putting forward the crimes committed by NATO
20 and the KLA. Quite the contrary. I maintain that the army of Yugoslavia
21 and the police did not commit crimes and that the individual crimes could
22 only have been committed by individual criminals. Therefore, nobody is
23 trying to justify crimes that nobody committed, and the army and the
24 police did not commit crimes. The crimes on the territory of Kosovo and
25 the whole of Yugoslavia were committed by the NATO pact and the terrorist
1 organisation the KLA, and I want that to be quite clear. Ultimately, this
2 will out, the truth will out, and the public will be able to see this.
3 However, with respect to the criticisms made in respect of
4 cross-examination that is ongoing, I should like to complain to you,
5 Mr. May, personally, because last time you switched my microphone off more
6 than ten times, and then you interrupted my cross-examination and
7 therefore made it impossible for me to complete my cross-examination, and
8 you did not do so for the first time either.
9 Something else that I consider to be quite unacceptable is that
10 you allowed the Prosecutor, during my time for cross-examination, to
11 manipulate with some papers here, where allegedly the -- which the witness
12 had allegedly referred to in his fabricated conversation, and at the same
13 time tried to hide a paper that he handed out to us, the text of the
14 Second Protocol of the Geneva Convention, in fact, because it was
15 subsequently quite obviously, due to his competence, that the paper was to
16 the advantage of Yugoslavia and not to his false witness. So this was an
17 attempt to cover it up. I think that this kind of manipulation, which is
18 obvious to those people following the trial, is quite impermissible, and I
19 demand that manipulations of this kind be stopped.
20 Now I come to a separate question for which I have a criticism and
21 complaint to make. You brought it up in a way that was not quite clear to
22 me what my possibilities are. I have no contacts with my associates, and
23 I demand that I be allowed to --
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we are going to discuss this later in
25 the week. There will be a time when we consider the paper by the
1 Registrar on the Defence facilities. We will also consider your request.
2 Now, it will be convenient to deal with it then. Meanwhile, any criticism
3 which you have, as alleged, are matters for the Trial Chamber to deal with
4 during the course of evidence. You've heard our ruling on
5 cross-examination. That ruling will be followed. We will allow
6 reasonable cross-examination, but that which is not reasonable will not be
7 allowed, and indeed your microphone will be switched off if you continue
8 in that way. But if you cross-examine reasonably, of course you're
9 entitled to do that.
10 Now we'll hear the evidence.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How can you assess --
12 JUDGE MAY: No. It's not a matter for argument now.
13 MR. NICE: One small point arising from the wholly-inappropriate
14 use of the word "manipulation" by the accused relating to the evidence of
15 Mr. Ashdown.
16 Just to remind the accused through Your Honours: Mr. Ashdown came
17 in on the second day of giving evidence, giving an account of the document
18 that he had drawn to the attention of this accused. He made it plain that
19 insofar as there had been a change in what was expected by way of his
20 account, it was something he had appreciated overnight. He had given the
21 Prosecution no notice in advance of the change that was about to be made,
22 and there had, of course, been absolutely no contact between the
23 Prosecution and Mr. Ashdown between the first day of his giving evidence
24 and the second about the content of his evidence. So the observation of
25 the accused is entirely inappropriate.
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now we'll hear the evidence.
2 Yes. We'll go into closed session for this witness.
3 [Closed session]
4 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano, we'll go on for about an hour and then
5 we'll take the first break.
6 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution calls K20.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
9 WITNESS: WITNESS K20
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.
15 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, with the assistance of the usher, I
16 would like to show the witness this document. It's a one-page document
17 containing the name and date of birth of the witness.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness see the document.
19 MS. ROMANO: I have copies also here. Do we have an exhibit
20 number for that?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit [redacted], which will be kept under
23 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.
24 Examined by Ms. Romano:
25 Q. Witness, I would like for you to review the paper that has just
1 been handed over to you, and without saying your name, can you tell the
2 Court if this is your correct name? Yes or no.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Next to your name, do you see the number K20?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Throughout these proceedings, you will be referred to by that
7 number. Do you understand that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Do you also see your birth date under your name?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that your correct date of birth?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Witness, at the bottom of the page, you see number K27, and next
14 to this number there is a name. Do you know this person? Yes or no.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I will ask you to, at any time you want to refer to this person
17 during your testimony, you do not mention the name of this person but
18 instead you say, "K27." Do you understand that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Witness, how old are you?
21 A. Twenty-three.
22 Q. You were born and you live in [redacted], in the municipality of
23 [redacted]; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who do you live with?
1 A. I live with my father - with my parents - my mother, my brothers,
3 Q. How many brothers and sisters you have?
4 A. I have [redacted] brothers, [redacted] sisters.
5 Q. Thank you. How many houses there were in [redacted]before the war,
7 A. How many houses? I can't know. However, I gave a number, an
8 approximate number of 150, because otherwise I can't know.
9 Q. It's not a problem. It's just approximately I would like to know
10 how many people living in your town before the war. Only if you can say
12 A. I cannot say, but that's an approximate figure.
13 Q. And are you Albanian?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And were all the villagers in your town, in [redacted], Albanians?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you understand or speak the Serbian language?
18 A. I do not understand and neither do I speak it.
19 Q. Thank you. Were there people coming from other villages? Were
20 they coming to live in [redacted]at a certain point?
21 A. During the war?
22 Q. Yes. Or even before the war.
23 A. During the war, some people came, because I do not know about
24 before the war.
25 Q. And what happened during the war? Why did the people come to your
2 A. Before the war, I don't know, as I said; but during the war, some
3 people came as they were being chased by the police and the army.
4 Q. And when you say "the war," what are you referring to?
5 A. The war in 1999, the 28th of March. That's when they left as they
6 were being chased from their village. From [redacted]village, they were
7 brought to [redacted].
8 Q. And how do you know that? How do you know they had been chased?
9 A. That's what they said when they came. They said, "We were kicked
10 out of our houses. We were told to go."
11 Q. And did they -- did they give any specifics about who drove them
12 out of their houses?
13 A. Well, they said, "The police and army came into our houses and did
14 not give any direction whatsoever, just told us, `Get out of the house.'"
15 Q. Thank you. Witness, on the 28th of March, 1999, were you at
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What happened that day?
19 A. That day, I was at home, and -- we were at home, and we heard some
20 shots being fired. So we went out on the balcony, and we saw the police
21 and army coming. Actually, we saw an army truck coming.
22 Q. When you refer "we," are you referring to your family?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And were you at house somewhere? Did you see the armed trucks
1 A. I was at home, but when we heard the shots, we went out on the
2 balcony and we saw them.
3 Q. Can you describe the type of vehicle that you saw?
4 A. I saw a truck with soldiers, and then the soldiers came off the
6 MS. ROMANO: May I have the witness be shown Exhibit 18, I
7 believe. No, no. I'm sorry. I think it's 17. Sorry.
8 Q. Witness, I would ask you to look at those photos and see if you
9 can recognise the truck that you saw or the vehicle that you saw that
11 A. The truck I cannot recognise because I saw it from -- from very
12 far, but however, I will take a look even though I cannot recognise.
13 There is none.
14 Q. No problem. Thank you, Witness. So you were on the balcony --
15 MS. ROMANO: Yes. Thank you.
16 Q. So, Witness, you were on the balcony and you saw the army vehicle
17 arriving. What did you and your family do?
18 A. We went downstairs, and we had -- some of our brothers were big in
19 age, and so we told them to go away.
20 Q. Where did they go?
21 A. They left towards the fields and off to another village.
22 Q. And why did -- why did your brothers leave?
23 A. Because when boys were bigger in age, we were scared that they
24 might take them. So that's why we told them to go away.
25 Q. Were they associated or members of the KLA?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did they become associates or members of the KLA at any time?
3 A. They left. After that day, they went to seek shelter with the
5 Q. Was there KLA in your town,(redacted) ?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And do you know if there were KLA headquarters or KLA soldiers in
8 nearby villages or villages around (redacted) ?
9 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
10 Q. Do you know of any KLA near your town, KLA base or KLA soldiers?
11 A. There was one three villages away from our village.
12 Q. What was there?
13 A. What? Well, I do not know, but there were voices that said that
14 three villages away from ours there was some KLA presence.
15 Q. Thank you. After your brothers run away, what you and the rest
16 your family do?
17 A. We stayed at home that evening, and it became dark. We heard some
18 shots, and we heard some people crying out, so we didn't know what to do.
19 So we went to our neighbours' because we had no idea what was going on and
20 we were scared.
21 Q. How long did you stay in your neighbours'?
22 A. We stayed until the next morning. We first went to a field
23 because we were scared. Then we went back to our neighbours' house where
24 we slept that night.
25 Q. And did you come back to your house the next day?
1 A. Yes. The next day, we went back early in the morning. My father,
2 my mother went back as well, and then we went back home as well.
3 Q. And during the night when you spent in your neighbours' house, did
4 you see or hear anything? I believe you said you heard shots.
5 A. During the night we went to -- when we went to our neighbours',
6 that's when we heard shouting and screaming. We had no idea what was
7 going on. We only went there.
8 Q. Thank you. On the 29th of March, you and your family returned
9 home. So what happened that day?
10 A. Yes. That day, on the 29th of March, we went inside our home, and
11 my brother came out and said, "Father, the police are here." My father
12 said, "Don't leave, my son, because they will kill you." And then my
13 father went out as well. And then one policeman came inside the house
14 through one window from the back of the house.
15 Q. Witness, can you describe -- you refer to a policeman. How do you
16 know it was a policeman? Was he wearing a uniform?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you describe the uniform?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What colour was the uniform?
21 A. It was blue in colour. Blue.
22 Q. Do you remember anything else, any insignia?
23 A. Insignia? I do not remember any insignia. I did not see. I
24 recognised the police uniform.
25 Q. If I show you a photo, do you believe you're going to be able to
2 A. Yes. If it's there, yes.
3 MS. ROMANO: May the witness be shown Exhibit 18, please.
4 Q. Witness, there are a series of photos of uniforms. Can you look
5 at them, please, and see if you can recognise the uniform you saw.
6 A. Yes. This one.
7 Q. Which number?
8 A. Number 6.
9 MS. ROMANO: Do we have an image? No, I don't think the ELMO is
11 A. I do not see it. Now I do. Now I do.
12 Q. Can you please again point to the photo that you recognise, the
13 photo 6.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness, you said that a policeman came to
16 your house. Was it just one, or outside there were more policemen? What
17 was happening outside your house? Could you see?
18 A. The policeman came inside and spoke something in Serbian. We did
19 not understand. My father went out because the other policemen were out.
20 So we thought he said something like, "Go out" to us, so we went out. And
21 my father spoke to them in Serbian, and they asked him who was in, and my
22 father said, "It's just me and my children." Then they told us to go back
23 inside the house, get dressed, and get some food with us because we would
24 be sent somewhere. Once we went out, we saw that there were a lot of
25 policemen and soldiers.
1 Q. This policeman, he spoke in Serbian?
2 A. He spoke Serbian once and then he started speaking Albanian. He
3 spoke in Albanian the following: "Get some clothes and some food, get
4 dressed, because we are going to take you someplace."
5 Q. Did you and your family leave the house?
6 A. At that moment?
7 Q. Yes, after the policeman told you to do so.
8 A. We went out and we walked away. When we went out, we saw there
9 were a lot of policemen and soldiers. One soldier had a certain kind of
10 weapon with some doves in a circle - I do not know what that weapon is
11 called - and he pointed it towards us once we went out.
12 Q. Witness, you refer also to soldiers and policemen. How did you
13 know they were soldiers and policemen?
14 A. I knew according to their uniforms.
15 Q. Can you describe the uniform that the soldiers were wearing?
16 A. Yes. It was green, brown, and something greenish.
17 MS. ROMANO: May I have the witness shown Exhibit 18 again,
19 Q. Witness, can you see any -- on any of these photos, the uniform
20 that you referred to?
21 A. No, I cannot recognise here. However, the uniforms are not the
22 same as then, but the colours are more or less the same, that is, green,
23 brown, and greenish.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you, Witness. So coming back to the point where you
25 and your family left your house, can you describe what happened after
2 A. When we went outside the house, they sent us to the street, and we
3 saw there were a lot of military vehicles, tanks and trucks. I do not
4 know the names of them.
5 Q. No problem. And where did you go, your family?
6 A. We were sent to a basement.
7 Q. Where was this basement?
8 A. It was in our village, but far from our house.
9 Q. And who else was sent to the basement with you?
10 A. When we went there, three families were already there, and our
11 family. First we were there, and then they would bring to the basement
12 anyone they would find in the street after the shooting; like, women, men,
13 et cetera.
14 Q. And was the basement full?
15 A. When we were there, no, but maybe three days later it was full.
16 Q. While you were in the basement, do you remember seeing a neighbour
17 called [redacted]?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was she in the basement?
20 A. When we were in the basement, she had been -- they had gone to her
21 house and killed her father and one of her first cousins and then brought
22 them in the basement.
23 Q. Did she tell you who did that?
24 A. Yes. She said the police and the army came there and took them
25 out and killed them.
1 Q. Thank you. Witness, while you were in the basement, where were
2 the soldiers and the policemen?
3 A. We were in the basement. They were in the second floor, above
4 us. And from there, they would fire. They would shoot downwards.
5 Q. Do you know where they were shooting or to what they were
7 A. They were shooting downwards. However, I do not know what they
8 were shooting at. They said there was KLA downwards, towards -- in the
9 direction of village of [redacted].
10 Q. And did they come to the basement?
11 A. They, the police?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Yes. They would come at all times. They would look at us, and
14 because the children were crying because they were scared, they said, "You
15 shouldn't cry. You should have thought earlier, because now you're at war
16 with the state. But NATO will come and help you."
17 Q. Did you hear anything else? Did you hear what was happening
19 A. Outside?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. I do not understand. Could you repeat the question, please?
22 Q. Yes. Apart from the shooting, did you hear anything else?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Thank you. When did you get out of the basement?
25 A. We were left in the basement for quite a long time, and we
1 became -- there was many of us there, and it was hard to stand there. It
2 was very hard to breathe, so they opened a window for us. The police and
3 the army opened a window for us.
4 Q. And what happened after?
5 A. Then later they took us out. A bit earlier, someone spoke to a
6 commander, and saying, "What are you?" "Albanians." So they took that
7 person and placed him in front of us and started beating him in front of
9 Q. Why were they beating that person?
10 A. I don't know. Only because he said, "Mr. Commander, may I speak
11 to you?"
12 Q. And what happened after?
13 A. Then they sent us to a field.
14 Q. They sent all the people that were inside the basement to this
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Where was this field?
18 A. Close to that house.
19 Q. And what happened while you were in the field?
20 A. We were sent to the field, and then they brought a tank and some
21 jeeps with certain weapons. They were beating us, and we thought they
22 wanted to kill us.
23 Q. And were you or any other villagers searched for valuables or
24 documents at that time?
25 A. At the time, they sent us out in the field, as I said, and then
1 they pointed -- they first pointed their weapons towards us, as if wanting
2 to kill us, and then they left five men only there and sent the rest back
3 to the basement, where we were earlier.
4 Q. Again I will repeat the question: While you were in the field,
5 were you or any other people searched for documents or for valuables? Did
6 the police or the soldiers, did they search you?
7 A. After they sent us there, they sent us back to the basement in
8 order to take our documents.
9 Q. And did they actually take any of the documents?
10 A. Well, when they put us in there, first thing, they searched five
11 men and took whatever they found on them, and then they searched us women
12 and took what they found on us.
13 Q. Witness, if -- let's make it clear if I am understanding you. You
14 were in the field. You, your family, and the other people, you were taken
15 to the field; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then you said that five men were taken. Were taken to where?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where were they taken to?
20 A. They sent them back to the basement where we were. They took them
21 back to the basement in order to search them.
22 Q. And they were doing this with all the villagers?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So they took five people, and after, they took another five?
25 A. Yes, by five. Once five men and then five men, and then they went
1 to the women. They searched them, and they took whatever they found on
3 Q. When you say "whatever they found," can you give an example of
4 what was taken from the people?
5 A. Yes. They took money, documents, watches.
6 Q. Thank you. From the meadow, where were you and the others taken?
7 A. They searched all of us, and then they took myself, my sisters,
8 and two other women and sent them -- sent us to the basement to search
10 Q. And after they searched all of you, what happened?
11 A. Then after they searched us, they sent us to another house. They
12 sent us to the meadow first. It started raining. It became dark. And
13 they said, "Come. We'll take you in." So they took us to another house
14 close to the previous one.
15 Q. Who went with you to this house?
16 A. That house, I was with my mother, my sisters, and [redacted]brothers.
17 Q. So from the meadow, you were taken back to the house. Was it the
18 same house?
19 A. No. It was another one.
20 Q. And did there come a time where they separate men, women, and
22 A. Separated the men, and they put them back in the basement where
23 they were. And we thought that's where they placed them, but they had
24 actually put them on two tanks [as interpreted]. And they sent us in
25 another house, meaning women and children, and they put us in a place for
2 Q. Excuse me. Witness, I think I have a problem. It may be
3 translation. Where did they put the men?
4 A. They put the men in the house where we were, in the basement of
5 the house where we were but in two tanks.
6 Q. What do you mean with "two tanks"?
7 A. Both of them -- in the second floor.
8 Q. Witness --
9 A. On top of the basement.
10 Q. So what you're referring is that you said that you thought the men
11 were in -- put in the basement, but in fact they were put on the second
12 floor of the same house. That's correct?
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. So I believe we have an error in translation here when we refer to
15 "tanks." It's not "tanks." It's "second floor." Just for the record.
16 So, Witness, the men -- all the men were put in the second floor,
17 and where did they take the women and children?
18 A. They took us to another house, and some of us they put in a cattle
20 Q. And what happened that night, Witness?
21 A. In that place where they left us, a soldier came to us and spoke
22 to us in Albanian, and they told us that they needed four persons.
23 Q. Can you describe this soldier? Can you describe the uniform he
24 was wearing if he was wearing a uniform?
25 A. Yes. He had a green uniform.
1 Q. You said he was speaking in Albanian. That's correct?
2 A. He spoke Albanian. He said in Albanian, "We want some girls."
3 Q. What did they need the girls for?
4 A. He said he needed us to clean up.
5 Q. Who were selected among the girls?
6 A. They took me and [redacted] K27.
7 Q. Where did the soldier take all of you firstly?
8 A. He took me outside, outside the door.
9 Q. Were there more soldiers or police outside the house?
10 A. There were.
11 Q. What happened to you and to the other girls?
12 A. The soldier who spoke Albanian put a light in my face and said do
13 I want a cigarette. And then they looked at our faces with their torches,
14 and they released [redacted]
16 Q. Who took [redacted] and to where?
17 A. That soldier took her and took her inside.
18 Q. Inside where?
19 A. The one who -- the one who took me -- the one with the green
20 uniform, the one who took me out of the room.
21 Q. To where did he take [redacted]?
22 A. Took -- took her to an old house.
23 Q. And who took you and K27 and to where?
24 A. They took me and then they took the [redacted]into an old
25 house, and then they took me to another one.
1 Q. And what about K27?
2 A. Another soldier took K27.
3 Q. Was K27 taken to the same house as you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you describe that place?
6 A. Yes. It was the old house of the same person, but that person in
7 question has two houses, a new one and an old one, and we were sent to the
8 yard of the new house, and they took K27 away. The policeman could speak
9 some Albanian. And he was in the yard. A soldier approached me and spoke
10 Serbian, but I did not understand.
11 Q. Were you taken inside the house?
12 A. That policeman who was there, I told him -- when the soldier
13 approached me, I told him, "Please kill me, because God knows what they
14 are going to do to me." And he said, "No, I will not kill you."
15 Q. Had you seen this policeman before?
16 A. I had seen him because he sent us out. He drove us out of the
18 Q. Was this policeman the man who got inside your house at the
19 beginning, during the morning?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So, Witness, who took you inside the house?
22 A. In the house or -- can you repeat, please?
23 Q. Yes. You were taken inside the house. Is it correct?
24 A. That soldier who spoke Serbian to me took me, as I said, took me
25 to the yard of that house, as I said, and took me inside the house.
1 Q. And where was the policeman at that time?
2 A. He was in the yard at first. Then I was put into a burnt room in
3 a burnt house.
4 Q. So what happened after you were put in this burnt room?
5 A. The soldier started taking off my clothes.
6 Q. Did he use violence against you while he was taking your clothes
8 A. I couldn't know because I was lost. I know -- I only know that he
9 took off my clothes.
10 Q. Did he take all your clothes off?
11 A. Yes. He took off my T-shirt and my jeans, but he didn't take my
12 jeans completely off. Until the knees only.
13 Q. And where were you at that moment? Where were you standing? Did
14 you have your back against the wall? Do you remember?
15 A. At first I was standing there, only standing in the middle of the
17 Q. Then what happened?
18 A. Well, just a little bit, please.
19 Q. Take your time, Witness. I know it's hard. I don't have too many
20 questions and get more details.
21 A. He undressed me and then put me in a bathroom because I started
22 screaming. Then he slapped me, and he stuffed my T-shirt in my mouth.
23 And the policeman who spoke Albanian also came there. I not know which of
24 them slapped me, but I know that one slapped me.
25 Q. And what happened to you?
1 A. He said, "Why are you screaming? Aren't the other ones girls as
2 well?" Then he put me in a bathroom.
3 Q. When you say "he," it was the soldier who put you in the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what did he do to you?
7 A. I got dressed, but he undressed me again.
8 Q. And then what did he do next?
9 A. Then he undressed me completely. He undressed himself --
11 Q. And what did he do?
12 A. Then he put out his genital organ and placed it inside my
14 Q. Did you have pain?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did he do anything else to you?
17 A. First he pushed me against the wall and then he forced me to kneel
18 down on a tough piece of wood - I don't know - but my knees were hurt.
19 Q. And while you were kneeling on this wood floor, what did he do to
21 A. He was raping me.
22 Q. And when you say "rape," what do you mean with that?
23 A. Well, how can I say? How should I say it properly?
24 JUDGE MAY: Did he do the same thing as he had done before?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.
2 Q. Where was the policeman during this time?
3 A. He was guarding outside the bathroom door.
4 Q. And after this soldier left, were you allowed to go?
5 A. No. The policeman was guarding and was flashing his torches at us
6 and then brought in the other one.
7 Q. Who was this other one person?
8 A. It was a soldier. They only spoke Serbian. I did not understand
9 them. And he came and did the same thing as the first one.
10 Q. How many times did he do that to you?
11 A. How many times?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. I cannot know, because it was a long time. It took long.
14 Q. And after this second soldier left, did another man come in?
15 A. Then I started getting dressed. They didn't let me get dressed,
16 and brought in another one.
17 Q. It was another soldier?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what did he do?
20 A. He too did the same thing as the previous two.
21 Q. And after the third man left, what happened?
22 A. The third -- when the third one came in, I asked a policeman who
23 was watching the door, the bathroom door, I asked him to let us go, let us
24 all go, because I was scared and I wanted to die. And he said, "Don't
25 worry." I asked him to kill me, and he said he wouldn't. So he brought
1 in the other one.
2 Q. And can you describe the other person?
3 A. The other one did the same thing as the first three.
4 Q. And was he a soldier as well?
5 A. Yes, a soldier. He only spoke Serbian. I did not understand.
6 Q. Did you scream? Did you try to defend yourself during all this
8 A. I was screaming, but I was powerless.
9 Q. And after the fourth man left, were you allowed to go?
10 A. After that, yes. I got dressed and the policeman said, "Do you
11 want to wait for your friends or do you want to leave alone?" And I said,
12 "No. I will go."
13 Q. So where did you go?
14 A. Then I went to the room where I was earlier.
15 Q. And back to that room, did you join your mother and your sisters?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know what happened to the other two girls, K27 and [redacted]
19 A. Yes, I know, because the same thing that happened to me happened
20 to [redacted] too.
21 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness. What happened on the next
22 morning, on the 30th of March?
23 A. The 30th of March?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. On the 29th of March -- on the 29th of March happened what
1 happened, the thing that happened, and on the next day we were sent to
3 Q. Can you describe how were you sent to Albania?
4 A. Yes. They made us leave those rooms early in the morning and they
5 told us we would go. They said, "You are going to Albania and you will
6 live there as if in America."
7 Q. Were the women and children, were they told to leave the house?
8 By whom?
9 A. We were told by the person to whom -- the person I referred to
10 earlier, called "Commander," or addressed as "Commander." Before we set
11 off for Albania, they separated 40 men and had them stay there.
12 Q. Was the commander a soldier?
13 A. The commander was wearing police clothes, but the person addressed
14 him as "Mr. Commander."
15 Q. He was wearing a police uniform?
16 A. Yes, something like a police uniform.
17 Q. So what happened to the 40 men? Where were they sent to?
18 A. They put them inside that basement and, since that day, nothing
19 was heard or known of them.
20 Q. So you have never seen these men again?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And what happened to the women and children?
23 A. We were placed on trucks and tractors and were told to set off
24 towards Albania.
25 Q. How long did it take to reach the border with Albania?
1 A. We set off around 1000 hours, and I do not know what time it was
2 when we reached the border, but we were in [redacted]when it was getting dark.
3 Q. Did other people join the convoy?
4 A. There was another car.
5 Q. During all this time while you were travelling, did the police or
6 the army accompany you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So if the army or the police were not with you, why did you
9 continue and you went to Albania?
10 A. But they told us so, and we set off towards that direction. On
11 the way, we did see policemen and soldiers.
12 Q. And in the border, were you allowed to cross without any problems?
13 A. Yes. We were searched. We were asked where we are from. We
14 said, "We're from [redacted]," and we were allowed to go.
15 Q. And were you asked to present or to show documents?
16 A. We told them that our documents had been taken from us.
17 Q. Witness, did you think you had a choice? Did you think you could
18 stay in your village or you had to leave?
19 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
20 Q. After you were told by the soldiers to leave to Albania, did you
21 think you had a choice? Could you choose to stay in your village?
22 A. No, we couldn't have stayed. There was no way we could have
23 stayed there.
24 Q. And why?
25 A. Because we had no place to stay, the place being full of policemen
1 and soldiers.
2 Q. Witness, in Albania, did you receive any medical treatment?
3 A. When I went to Albania, I was very sick, and we were sent to a
4 camp. I did not know what happened. I just felt my knees feel weak and I
5 went unconscious. Then my mother and father took me to a safe place -- to
6 a doctor, excuse me.
7 Q. And did you receive medical treatment?
8 A. Yes. I was visited by a doctor. He gave me three pills, because
9 I was having my period, or I was menstruating during the rape, so he told
10 me to take those three pills.
11 Q. Are you still suffering, physically or mentally, the consequences
12 of what happened to you?
13 A. Yes, very much so.
14 Q. How hard is it in your society to face what happened to you?
15 A. Well, yes.
16 Q. Thank you, Witness.
17 MS. ROMANO: That's all. I don't have any further questions.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you. We'll adjourn now. But before we
19 do, there's a matter for the registrar.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll adjourn now. There is a possibility that
22 we can sit proper hours for the rest of this week. We're investigating
23 that. So we may be able to sit in the afternoon from tomorrow onwards
24 until Friday, but we'll see.
25 MS. ROMANO: Excuse me, Your Honour, but not for today?
1 JUDGE MAY: Not today, no.
2 Witness K20, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes, and then
3 when you come back, we'll conclude your evidence. Would you remember
4 during the adjournment not to speak to anybody about your evidence, and
5 that does include the Prosecutors. Could you be back, please, at a
6 quarter past 11.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.54 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.
9 THE REGISTRAR: The Kosovo Atlas 2 bundle will be numbered Exhibit
11 JUDGE MAY: I'm told there will be no problem about sitting for
12 the rest of this week during the course of the afternoon, so we'll sit
13 tomorrow 9.30. We may go a little later than 4.00, but we'll see how we
14 get on. Friday there may be difficulties about because we've got another
16 Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] I'm sorry to hear what happened to you, if it
19 happened to you, but my question is: What proof do you have that this did
20 happen to you?
21 A. Once more, please. I do not understand. Once more, please.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, she's asking you to clarify your
24 THE ACCUSED: [In English] It's not functioning here so I haven't
25 heard it.
1 Q. [Interpretation] My question was I said that I was sorry that this
2 happened to you, if it did indeed happen. My question is: What evidence
3 do you have to prove that this did happen?
4 A. It is true that it happened to me, because I did not come here
5 to ...
6 JUDGE MAY: Do you want to finish that? You didn't come here to,
7 to what?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not come here to lie. That
9 happened. I'm not here to lie. That is true.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Yes, but this is a very serious crime which in any proceedings
12 needs to be corroborated with evidence. Do you have any evidence in
13 addition to your statement?
14 JUDGE MAY: Well, that will be -- that will be for the
15 Prosecution. Whether corroboration is required is a matter of law. It's
16 not required in this Tribunal for such an allegation.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So regardless of whether there's any
18 evidence, this Tribunal accepts what the witness states, even without any
19 evidence. Am I understanding it correctly?
20 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't necessarily accept what the witness said.
21 That's a matter for the Tribunal to decide, on considering all the
22 evidence. But as a matter of law, corroboration is not necessarily
23 required for an allegation of this sort. That is what I was correcting
24 you on.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Does that also apply to my next
1 question? On the basis of what is it concluded that this was done by
2 policemen and soldiers, if it was done, and not by someone else? Is that
3 also to be taken only on the basis of the statement?
4 JUDGE MAY: No. You can ask the witness how it was she concluded
5 that those who did it were soldiers and policemen.
6 Can you help us with that, Witness?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is very true they were
8 policemen and soldiers. I know that.
9 JUDGE MAY: But the question is: How did you know they were
10 policemen and soldiers? It may be obvious, but you need to explain to
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is because I speak according to
13 their uniforms and due to the fact that they were speaking Serbian.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. But you said, describing their mutual relationships, that the
16 person they addressed as "Commander" was wearing a police uniform. Is
17 that right?
18 A. Police uniform. The person addressed him as "Mr. Commander," and
19 he said, "I've worked with him, and I know him."
20 Q. Who said he had worked with him and he knew him?
21 A. When a villager from [redacted]village said that.
22 Q. So on the basis of what you have said, a police officer, according
23 to your testimony, was in command of soldiers. Did I understand you
25 A. All soldiers? What do you mean? I'm not sure I understand.
1 You're referring to policemen or soldiers? I do not understand you.
2 Q. You mentioned the presence of soldiers, and you said that the
3 commander was a policeman. So you are claiming that this commander, a
4 policeman, was in command of soldiers. That can be inferred from the
5 testimony that you gave a moment ago.
6 A. That policeman that I mentioned was commanding the soldiers in the
7 burnt house where I was during the time I was raped. That's who I was
8 speaking about.
9 Q. So you are confirming that this policeman was commanding soldiers
10 in your village. I'm asking you this because such a situation is
11 impossible for a policeman to be in command of soldiers. So I want to
12 clarify this to see what it is exactly, what is exactly right.
13 A. They were wearing army uniforms, as I said. The policeman was
14 wearing police uniform. I described the uniform to you.
15 Q. I am drawing attention to the fact that there can be no situation,
16 formal or informal, with a policeman commanding soldiers, except what I
17 heard from you just now in your testimony. Is your recollection correct
18 of what you're saying? Please think it over once again.
19 A. I remember very well. I remember very well, and it is very true,
20 and I saw it with my own eyes. I saw the policeman and the soldiers.
21 Q. Very well. We obviously can't get to the bottom of this
22 because -- even though it is quite unbelievable, but answer my next
23 question, please. Did you find out, after everything that happened,
24 anything at all which would provide an answer to the question who were the
25 perpetrators of this act, what their names were, who they were?
1 A. I do not know that. I don't understand Serbian. I don't know.
2 Q. Did anyone carry out an investigation into this crime that was
3 committed against you as you allege?
4 A. Once more, please, the question.
5 Q. My question is: Do you know whether any investigation was
6 conducted into the crime that you allege was committed against you? Did
7 an official body investigate this?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Did you know any one of the persons who were present on the 28th
10 and 29th of March in your village?
11 A. No.
12 Q. But obviously one of your villagers did know this person whom you
13 describe as the commander; is that correct?
14 A. I did not say my fellow villager. I said a villager from [redacted]
16 Q. Very well. But in any case, this was somebody you knew?
17 A. I did not know him. I only saw him there, and I knew that he was
18 from [redacted]village.
19 Q. How did you know that he was from [redacted]village?
20 A. Because he said himself.
21 Q. Could you identify this person? He was an Albanian. Was he an
22 Albanian from the village of [redacted]?
23 A. He was Albanian.
24 Q. Could you have found out from him the name of this alleged
25 commander who was wearing a police uniform?
1 A. He said, "Mr. Commander." He did not mention any name.
2 Q. I understand that he didn't mention any name at the time, but in
3 view of the crime that you alleged was committed against you, wasn't it
4 logical for you to ask him the name of this man whom he said he knew from
5 before and with whom he had worked?
6 A. He was -- before. He was there on the first day, before the crime
7 happened. That was the day when the person referred to him as "Mr.
9 Q. Didn't it seem logical to you that you should find out who was
10 responsible for the act that you said was committed against you so that
11 you should inquire who those people are, what their names are?
12 A. It was logical, but why should I have asked for their names?
13 Q. Because you're claiming that they committed a crime against you,
14 so surely somebody who commits a crime should be held responsible for this
15 and taken to justice.
16 A. They committed them.
17 Q. Yes, but I assume you want those who committed a crime to be held
18 responsible and to be punished for that crime.
19 A. Yes, I want that to happen.
20 Q. Well, isn't it logical, then, for you to inquire who those people
21 were so that they can be held to account for the crime they committed, if
22 they committed it?
23 A. I cannot know those persons. I couldn't, because I did not
24 understand Serbian, and they were speaking, but I did not understand them.
25 Q. Yes, but do you know what it is that you are testifying about at
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts. Pages 2542 to 2551.
1 these proceedings against me? What is the subject of your testimony? Do
2 you know that?
3 JUDGE MAY: That's not for the witness. All she can say is what
4 she is giving evidence about.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. When did you return to Kosovo?
7 A. I returned three months later.
8 Q. And in the period of more than two years that have gone by, have
9 you heard of rapes in Kosovo?
10 A. Yes, I have heard.
11 Q. Are there many cases of rape in Kosovo now?
12 A. Yes, many. He knows it himself.
13 Q. Do you know whether heads of state or government whose troops are
14 stationed in Kosovo are being held responsible for that?
15 JUDGE MAY: It's not a matter for the witness. It's a matter of
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let me go back to the
18 statement, then.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You said in your written statement that I have read, and also in
21 your testimony a moment ago, that soldiers and policemen were waging a
22 struggle against members of the KLA, and in your written statement you
23 even added that the KLA had forces in a nearby village. That is what is
24 stated in your statement. So my question is: In view of this battle that
25 was ongoing, did they evacuate you to the basement in order to protect you
1 so that nobody would get killed in the fighting? Was that your
2 understanding or was it something else?
3 A. How in order not to get killed? There was a war.
4 Q. There was a war on, and usually when there is a war and when there
5 is shooting, civilians are sheltered in basements so that they -- somebody
6 wouldn't get hit by a bullet. So do you believe that they were protecting
7 you by ordering you to go down into the basement?
8 A. They were not protecting me, and there was no fighting. They were
9 shooting downwards, but there was no fighting in the meantime. It was
10 only them opening fire downwards. And I said -- I did not say the KLA was
11 in a nearby village. I said it was stationed three villages away from my
13 Q. You said that a moment ago. That is true. But here in your
14 statement, on page 3, third paragraph, it says, and I'm now reading your
15 statement: "The KLA had a base in a nearby village." And then you go on
16 to say that: "At that time, [redacted]older brothers fled to the mountains one
17 day before the Serbs entered the village, and as far as I know, they
18 joined the KLA." So you're talking about a village nearby.
19 A. It is not close. It's three villages away. They went to seek
20 shelter there. They left. They escaped from the Serb forces.
21 Q. I'm not asking you about why they left and why they were in the
22 KLA, but I'm saying that the conflict between the army and the police was
23 against the KLA in the nearby village, according to what you stated here.
24 Is that correct or not?
25 A. What do you mean, the police? What army? I do not understand
2 Q. The army and the police that you say was in your village, that's
3 the army and the police that I am referring to.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. They told you to go to the basement, and from what you said, you
6 hastened to go to the basement and then they turned you back to get
7 clothes, to put on shoes, and to collect food to take with you. Is that
9 A. It is true, but when he came in through the window, he spoke
10 something in Serbian. We did not understand him. And then he started
11 speaking in Albanian, and he said, "We will bring you to the basement,"
12 even though we didn't previously know where they were going to send us.
13 Q. I understand all that, but when they told you to get dressed, put
14 your shoes on, take some food and go back to the basement, and after that
15 there was shooting, does that mean that they wanted to protect you from
16 the danger, to get you away from the danger of that shooting that was
17 taking place in front of you, or not?
18 A. There was no danger whatsoever. The danger was coming from them.
19 Q. And who were they shooting at?
20 A. How do I know towards who they were shooting? They were shooting
22 Q. What do you mean "downwards"? Is your house on a hill, your
23 village on a hill?
24 A. I will not answer this question. I came here as regards my case,
25 what happened to me, and I told you which direction they fired towards.
1 Q. I'm just asking you something about what you yourself said here
2 because I don't have any other information except from what you -- except
3 what you told us here. So is your house up on a hill, when you say they
4 fired downwards? You used the word "downwards." So was it a village
5 lower down from your village? What do you mean when you use the word
7 A. We were in [redacted]village. I said to you earlier that they were
8 shooting downwards towards [redacted]village. I explained it earlier.
9 Q. And how far is [redacted]village from your own village?
10 A. It's very close.
11 Q. How long would you need on foot to go from your village, [redacted], to
12 [redacted]village? Walking distance, how much time would it take you?
13 A. Ten minutes.
14 Q. And how many members of the KLA were in [redacted]?
15 A. There was no KLA in [redacted], but they were shooting downwards
16 towards [redacted]village.
17 Q. All right. You said that the basement in the neighbouring house
18 where you went to was not full but that, several days later, it became
20 A. Was not full. What was it filled with a few days later? I do not
21 understand this.
22 JUDGE MAY: That was your evidence as it was translated to us,
23 that three days later, the basement was full. Now, you also said that on
24 the 29th these various events happened, then on the next day you left for
25 Albania. It may be that you can clarify that for us.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 28th, I said, they came. The
2 Serb forces came to our village and shot towards [redacted]village. There
3 was some fighting that day, and people were saying that they are fighting
4 with the KLA. But next day, they came and took us from the house and put
5 all the villagers in the basement. The basement was full within one day,
6 that is, on the 29th of March. Not within three days. I did not say so.
7 Then on the 30th of March is when I said they sent us towards
8 Albania. On the 28th, they took us to the basement and to the house where
9 we spent one night, and then we were sent to Albania.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And when did they send you to Albania; on the 30th or the 29th?
12 A. On the 29th they seized us there. We were in the basement. On
13 the 30th, they sent us towards Albania, on the 30th of March.
14 Q. So that means you just spent one night in the basement; is that
16 A. One night.
17 Q. How, then, did you say that several days later the basement became
18 full up?
19 JUDGE MAY: She has explained that as being an error. She didn't
20 say that.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not understanding this. I said
22 on the 29th of March --
23 JUDGE MAY: The translation was that three days later, the
24 basement was full. That was the translation of your evidence as we
25 understood it. Now you've explained that was an error.
1 Yes. Perhaps we can move on to something else, Mr. Milosevic.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You said that, from the fields, they took five people to the
4 basement to search them and that, after that, they would bring them in
5 five by five; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in your written statement, you said that they took ten men
8 back to the basement to search them. Now, what is true? Was it five or
9 was it ten?
10 A. I said five the first time and then five others after that were
11 taken and searched.
12 Q. How many were there in all? The first time five and the second
13 time five. How many men in all? That would make it ten, wouldn't it?
14 A. I do not know. There were many. It was not ten. They took them
15 five by five. They took five, searched them and them brought them back,
16 and then five others, and so on.
17 Q. Well, I'm asking you this because you said that they took ten, and
18 then afterwards you said five by five, five and then five again. Did you
19 see them when they were being searched?
20 A. We did not see them. They were sent inside after being taken from
21 the meadow, and then when they came back, they had their clothes in their
23 Q. How, then, do you know whether they took anything from them or
24 not? You didn't see it.
25 A. They said so themselves. My father's watch was taken, and he was
1 also told to give them the documents and money.
2 Q. Do you know any other instance except for your father?
3 A. Yes. My uncles were there.
4 Q. Did they take anything away from them?
5 A. Yes. They took everything they found on them.
6 Q. How many men were there there?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. You don't know how many men there were in all over there?
9 A. I don't know what their number was. There were many of them, but
10 I do not know the exact number.
11 Q. You said a moment ago that there were 40 of them.
12 A. I said 40 were separated, and nothing is known what happened to
14 Q. You said that they came into the basement in your house, or to
15 you, that they came to you in the basement to look for women to do some
16 cleaning. When was that?
17 A. Not in the basement but in those two rooms in the other house
18 where I said we were sent to another house during the night where there
19 were two rooms, and they said, "We need some girls to clean the dishes,"
20 correction, "Wash the dishes."
21 Q. But when was that? What time?
22 A. I don't know the time, but it was night-time.
23 Q. This is what it says in your statement, the written statement that
24 I have here in front of me, and it is on page 4:
25 "That night at around 2200 hours, three Serb soldiers came into
1 the room where we were staying, and I saw that they had torches with
2 them. They told us that they needed ten persons to clean and tidy up."
3 A. I said one soldier came in with a battery light, but I do not
4 remember the time. I didn't know what the time was because it was dark
5 and we were staying in the candlelight. And they said, "We need some
6 girls to clean up."
7 Q. That is a little different in some of the details, if we compare
8 it to your written statement. You are repeating to us now that one
9 soldier turned up with a torch, and in your written statement you say that
10 three Serb soldiers turned up. Now, what are you telling us now? Did
11 they say they needed girls for washing dishes? And here in your written
12 statement you say that those three -- that there were three soldiers and
13 that they asked for ten people to do the cleaning, they needed ten persons
14 to clean. Can you remember what actually happened? Because there's
15 rather a substantial difference between what you are telling us now and
16 what we can read in the written statement.
17 A. I said that one soldier came and said, "We need some girls."
18 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, excuse me.
19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
20 MS. ROMANO: If it's of any help, I can hand out the statement --
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll see it.
22 MS. ROMANO: -- to which Mr. Milosevic has made reference.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit [redacted].
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 4, the witness therefore
25 claims that one soldier turned up with a torch and asked for girls.
1 That's what she said. On page 4, in the middle of page 4, actually, it
2 says the following:
3 "At about 2200 hours that evening, three Serbian soldiers came in
4 the room where we stayed. I saw that they had torches with them. They
5 told us that they needed ten persons to clean."
6 Therefore, it was not one, but three. And she now claims that it
7 was one. In her statement, she says three. She now says "girls," where
8 they asked for persons, ten persons to clean, and not four, as she has now
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Now, which of these is correct?
12 JUDGE MAY: The witness has given her evidence about it.
13 Unless there's anything you want to add, we'll move on to the next
14 point. Is there anything you want to add?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know one soldier came and took
16 us. I remember that soldier with the torch, who is the one who took us
17 and said, "We need some girls to clean up --" Correction, "... to wash
18 the dishes." My sister told my mom to go, because she had an idea of what
19 was to happen. But the soldier spoke to her in Serbian, saying, "You, old
20 lady, sit down."
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. It says, continuing on here, that several older women stood up and
23 wanted to go with them but that they sent them back.
24 A. It does not state a number. I only said my sister told my mom to
25 go, because she thought -- she thought she knew what was going to happen;
1 and he spoke to her in Serbian, saying, "You, old lady, sit down."
2 Q. This soldier spoke in Albanian, as far as I was able to understand
3 you, what you were saying. Is that correct? Is that right?
4 A. He spoke Albanian.
5 Q. And you said that a policeman also spoke Albanian?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did anybody else except those two, the soldier and the policeman,
8 speak in Albanian that you heard?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And who said what you heard coming from the basement, with respect
11 to NATO and the rest of it, that you quoted in your statement? Who said
12 that? One of those two or a third person? You said that one of the
13 officers said that.
14 A. Yes, I said so, but now I could not remember at present. I said
15 that the person to whom the previous person referred to as "Mr. Commander"
16 is the one who spoke Albanian.
17 Q. Now, this is a third person speaking Albanian, and you don't know
18 of any other person who was talking in Albanian?
19 A. I know about the policeman; as I said, the soldier spoke Albanian
20 and the person who said, "NATO will save you."
21 Q. Now, were these people Serbs or were they Albanians?
22 A. They were Serbs.
23 Q. How many soldiers and policemen were there in all? How many would
24 you say? Your opinion, approximately, roughly. How many of them were
1 A. I cannot know. There were many of them.
2 Q. Twenty, thirty, forty? How many would you say? Fifty?
3 A. Lots and lots of them. Not forty, fifty. A lot of them. There
4 were a lot of them scattered around the village.
5 Q. Do many Serbs in Kosovo speak Albanian?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. You said that the policeman stood guard in front of the door when
8 they were committing the crime against you.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who was he guarding you from?
11 A. He was guarding the order in which they came.
12 Q. Did he want to hide what they were doing, to mask it?
13 A. I don't know. He brought them by order there. I do not know.
14 Q. And who threatened you and told you that you weren't allowed to
15 speak about it? Him or somebody else?
16 A. Can you repeat the question once more, please?
17 Q. I understood you to say that he told you that you weren't allowed
18 to tell anybody what had happened but that you were to say that you were
19 doing some cleaning. Did he tell you that or somebody else, one of the
21 A. That policeman who spoke Albanian.
22 Q. When you started out of the village on your way to Albania, how
23 many of you were there?
24 A. I cannot know that. There were many. I don't know.
25 Q. You said trucks and tractors. How many trucks and tractors would
1 you say there were?
2 A. I don't know. There were many tractors. There was one truck, but
3 I don't know. Where we were, one villager said there's 500 from [redacted]and
4 500 from [redacted], but I don't know any further.
5 Q. From [redacted], you went towards [redacted]and then down to Albania; is
6 that right? Is that the route you took?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You passed through many places. Did you know anybody? Did you
9 have any relatives, friends, relations, in any of those places on the way,
10 or acquaintances perhaps?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You said that nobody escorted you, any of the policemen or
13 soldiers, that is. Is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's true. No one accompanied us.
15 Q. Did you want to go to Albania?
16 A. No, we didn't want to.
17 Q. Now, as no one accompanied you or were escorting you, you could
18 have stayed anywhere in Kosovo if you wanted to; is that right?
19 A. No, we couldn't. Throughout the way, we saw policemen and
20 soldiers. They would ask us, "Where are you from?" and we would tell
22 Q. Yes, but nobody prevented you from stopping anywhere and staying.
23 A. They didn't stop us. They only directed us towards Albania. We
24 did not stay -- dare stay there any longer.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no more questions.
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no questions
3 for the witness linked to the testimony she has given about her
5 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, I have nothing to ask you about what you
7 have told us about, but I am interested in two points only.
8 Before you went to the basement, you were in a large group of
9 people of almost 300 of them; is that correct?
10 A. Before they sent us to the basement?
11 Q. Were you one of a large group of people numbering some 300 - not
12 just from your own village but from the surrounding villages, too - who
13 had reached your village?
14 A. I do not understand.
15 Q. I'm just reminding you of what you said earlier on. "Before going
16 to the basement, at that time I was in a large group of people of about
17 300 of them."
18 A. Three hundred people before we were sent to the basement? I said
19 when they were first sent to the basement at the beginning. Is that what
20 you're asking? I said there were three families and us.
21 Q. I'm just reminding you that that is what you said earlier on, but
22 never mind. Do you remember how many people from other villages were
23 there with you before you went down to the basement? Were there people
24 there whom you didn't know at all?
25 A. From the other villages, I said -- I said when we went to the
1 basement, there were only three families and us. Along the way, we didn't
2 see anyone. We were the first ones to be taken from our village, and when
3 we were sent to the basement, we found three families there.
4 Q. But I would like to know the following: Those 40 or 50 men who
5 stayed behind, as you said, and of whom you said you never saw them again,
6 were they all from your village?
7 A. No. There were -- there were some from our village, from [redacted]
8 village, and from [redacted]village. I said 40 people.
9 Q. And the few from your village, did you see them later on? Did you
10 meet them again, those who were from your village?
11 A. No. Even today nothing is known as to their whereabouts.
12 Q. Could you give us a few names of those people from your village
13 whom you never saw again?
14 A. No, I cannot.
15 Q. Were there people from other villages among them, among the people
16 who were in the basement, who stayed behind?
17 A. Whether there were -- once more the question, please.
18 Q. In addition to the people from your village who were left behind
19 when you left and about whom you never heard anything, were there people
20 from other villages among them? Not just people from your own village but
21 from other villages as well.
22 A. I said from the villages of [redacted], and our village. So
23 there were 40 people from other villages who were -- from three villages,
25 Q. Did you inquire among those people from the other villages whether
1 they ever saw their villages again? Did they come home? And if they did,
2 do you know any name? Could you give us a name?
3 A. Name of who? Whose name?
4 Q. You said that among those people who remained in the basement when
5 you left for Albania, that there were quite a number of people from the
6 surrounding villages and whom you never saw again. Did their relatives in
7 those other villages see them again, villages in which you don't live?
8 A. I did not see them.
9 Q. Very well. Thank you. I have just one more thing to ask you, and
10 it relates to your earlier statement. Allow me to read to you what you
11 said, and that's all I have to ask you.
12 "While we were in the basement, we could hear shooting outside.
13 Most probably that was because of the fighting between the Serbs and the
14 KLA. The KLA had a base in a nearby village."
15 That is what you stated earlier. Is that correct or not? And
16 that's all I have to ask.
17 A. I said three villages. They are close by. They are in the same
18 commune, municipality, that of [redacted], but they are not close by to our
20 Q. No. But you yourself said that shooting was heard outside, and
21 you said, "Most probably that was because of the fighting between the
22 Serbs and the KLA." That's what you said. If that is wrong, you tell us,
23 but that is what you said.
24 A. I said that they were fighting. They were shooting. The police
25 were shooting. I heard that the shots came from Serb forces. This is
1 what I said. And that we were in the cellar in the basement and that they
2 were shooting from [redacted]village downwards. I have not heard any shots
3 coming from downwards.
4 Q. Thank you. No. But you said that your conclusion was that it was
5 because of the fighting between the Serb forces and the KLA. That is what
6 you said. Now you're giving us a different explanation. Thank you.
7 A. No. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. I just
8 said what I saw and what I heard.
9 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Romano.
10 MS. ROMANO: Just two matters, Your Honour.
11 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:
12 Q. Witness, when asked by the accused if you thought that the Serb
13 forces were protecting you and the villagers by taking you to the
14 basement, you answered no. Can you tell us why?
15 A. Why they took us to the basement, you mean?
16 Q. No. Why did you think -- why did you not think that they were
17 protecting you?
18 A. They -- I know that they took us to the basement. This is all I
19 know. I don't know that they wanted to protect us. They told us to go
20 there to that basement and this is all I know.
21 Q. And while you were in the basement or even after, when you were
22 taken outside, did you see the Serb forces maltreating, mistreating the
23 villagers, beating or hurting them?
24 A. Yes. Yes. I saw them. I saw the commander and some police.
25 They were carrying weapons.
1 Q. And did you see them beating anybody?
2 A. I saw the man who addressed the commander as "Mr. Commander." He
3 was killed. I saw that Albanian guy who was placed before us, and he was
4 killed -- sorry, he was beaten.
5 Q. And while you were in the field, you had your valuables and
6 documents taken; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Thank you. Witness, did you tell anybody of what happened to you,
9 about the crime that was committed against you?
10 A. Only you here. I didn't tell anyone about that, with the
11 exception of what I stated in my statement.
12 Q. And didn't you report to the police or to any investigation or
13 investigative authority?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. And why didn't you do that?
16 A. I don't know why I didn't do that.
17 Q. How often are women in your society, how often are women in Kosovo
18 or in your village, how often they report such a crime, when a crime like
19 this is committed against them?
20 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
21 Q. To make it more simple: If someone, a girl like you, has a crime
22 committed against her, is it common or it's easy for her to report that
23 crime to the police?
24 A. I don't know what to say. Maybe it is hard to say.
25 Q. It is hard to report. Do you have the support of your family if
1 you do that?
2 A. I personally have the support of my family, but it is indeed very
3 difficult to tell of such things.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness.
5 MS. ROMANO: No further questions.
6 JUDGE MAY: Witness K20, that concludes your evidence. Thank you
7 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to
9 We'll adjourn now for a quarter of an hour, a quarter to 1.00.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would like to take the
16 WITNESS: WITNESS K16
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to sit down.
22 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, I would like to show this witness this
23 document. Again, it's a one-page document containing the name of the
24 witness and the date of birth.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit [redacted], under seal.
1 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.
2 Examined by Ms. Romano:
3 Q. Witness, I would like for you to review the paper that is just in
4 front of you, and without saying your name, can you tell the Court if this
5 is your correct name? Yes or no.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Next to your name, do you see the number K16?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Throughout these proceedings, you will be referred to by that
10 number. Do you understand that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you also see your birth date under your name?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that your correct date of birth?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How old are you, Witness?
17 A. Twenty-four.
18 Q. Do you live in [redacted]?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Where do you live in [redacted]?
21 A. I live in the outskirts of the city, a place called [redacted].
22 Q. Is [redacted]is neighbourhood of [redacted]?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. ROMANO: May I have the witness shown [redacted] -- no, it's
25 map -- just a second. It's [redacted].
1 Q. Witness, can you look at this map and can you show the Court where
2 is your neighbourhood? This is a map of the [redacted]town.
3 MS. ROMANO: Can the map be put on the ELMO, please?
4 Q. Witness, you need to point on the map that is next to you.
5 A. It's up here somewhere. Here you can see [redacted],
6 [redacted]; and [redacted] is up here.
7 Q. And where is the centre? Where is [redacted], the centre of the
8 town? If you cannot find it, it's fine. No problem.
9 A. Here.
10 Q. Thank you. Who do you live with in [redacted]?
11 A. I live with my father, mother, and [redacted] brothers.
12 Q. What's your ethnicity?
13 A. I'm an Albanian.
14 Q. And were most of the people in your neighbourhood Albanians?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were there Serbs?
17 A. There were.
18 Q. How many Serbs compared to how many Albanians?
19 A. There were more Albanians, but there were some Serbs. About ten
20 houses. I don't know, maybe more, I'm not sure. I didn't have contact
21 with them.
22 Q. Do you understand the Serbian language?
23 A. Yes, I do. To understand it, yes.
24 Q. After the 24th of March when the NATO bombing started, how was the
25 life in your neighbourhood?
1 A. I -- it was quiet. People were shut up inside their houses, and
2 there were a lot of police on the streets, but at the beginning, there
3 weren't very much trouble.
4 Q. Were people from other villages or part of your town coming to
5 live in your neighbourhood at that point?
6 A. Very close there weren't, but roundabout there were.
7 Q. Where they coming from?
8 A. From [redacted]municipality.
9 Q. And do you know the reason why they were leaving their homes and
10 coming to your neighbourhood?
11 A. They said that the Serbian police were throwing them out of their
12 houses and they couldn't live in peace.
13 Q. Witness, you mentioned that there were police present in your
14 neighbourhood. Can you describe if they wore uniforms?
15 A. They had uniforms of dark blue mixed with -- they had three of
16 those colours; a dark blue and a lighter blue and then camouflage
18 Q. Witness, I will show a series of photos, and I will ask you to try
19 to identify a photo of the uniform you are referring to.
20 MS. ROMANO: May I have the witness shown Exhibit [redacted], please.
21 Q. Which number, please?
22 A. Six.
23 Q. Thank you. What were they doing in your neighbourhood?
24 A. They were patrolling the streets up and down, and they were
25 shooting in the air. They looted the shop opposite.
1 Q. Was there -- was there any looting or burning?
2 A. There was looting in the house -- in the shop -- from the shop
3 opposite our house, and I saw this myself.
4 Q. Can you describe, what did you see?
5 A. The police came at the beginning with a car, with a woman. I
6 don't know who it was. And they broke down the door of the shop, and they
7 took things from inside, and they put these things in the car and went
9 Q. Was there any mistreatment of Albanians in your neighbourhood?
10 A. I only know one case nearby. Somebody had come from a village - I
11 don't know who it was - who was beaten very badly, body -- entire body
12 was - how to say? - bruised, navy blue.
13 Q. And who caused the beating?
14 A. He said he was beaten by the police.
15 Q. Thank you. Do you remember when the NATO bombing started?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was your village hit by any bomb?
18 A. Do you mean a bomb from NATO? No.
19 Q. From any other forces?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you describe?
22 A. A hundred metres from the house, two policemen shot from a car.
23 And there was another case further up. I don't know how far from the
24 house. But we heard this shooting.
25 Q. I asked you about bombing, and you said that you didn't know any
1 bombing from NATO that hit your town. You also mentioned that not from
2 NATO but from other forces.
3 A. No, not bombing.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
5 A. Perhaps I didn't understand correctly. I said there were two
6 detonations, and these were explosions from Serbian policemen who threw
7 explosive devices. It wasn't from NATO.
8 Q. Thank you. That clarifies.
9 Was there a time when the people in your neighbourhood left the
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When was that, and what was the reason for them to leave?
13 A. It was a week after the NATO bombing started, and people left
14 [redacted]and we saw them coming down towards our neighbourhood, into the
16 Q. Were they scared of the NATO bombing?
17 A. I don't believe they were. I saw people fleeing. And when they
18 came, we asked them why they were fleeing, and they said that they had
19 been expelled by the police.
20 Q. Did anybody from your family leave?
21 A. No.
22 MS. ROMANO: I would like to show the witness this document. It's
23 a handmade sketch, made by the witness. The one that has been distributed
24 right now is the translation. I have here the original.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit [redacted].
1 MS. ROMANO: And I would like the witness to work with the
3 Just one clarification: Do you need -- Madam Clerk, do you need
4 both, the original and the translation? Maybe we can --
5 THE REGISTRAR: We need both, both the original. This document
6 will be kept under seal.
7 MS. ROMANO: So I have here the original. I have the original and
8 I have the translation, because it's written in Albanian. So in order to
9 help the Court, maybe we can --
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Put them both in.
11 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.
12 Q. Witness, do you recognise this sketch?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you make it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In early April, you went to [redacted]with your Aunt [redacted]and
17 your cousin [redacted]of 12 years old. Do you remember that day? Yes or
19 A. I remember that day. That day, I went out with my uncle's wife
20 and my cousin, and we went out.
21 Q. Why did you go to [redacted]that day?
22 A. We went out to buy milk from my aunt's son, and some other things
23 that we needed.
24 Q. Using the sketch that you made, can you describe to the Court the
25 route that you took from your house to [redacted]and what happened that
1 day, starting from your house.
2 A. We left our house to go to the town, and we went through the back
3 streets to go faster, and it was safer. And we went along the road that
4 goes to the market. And when we wanted to get this road that goes to the
5 market by the [redacted] school, two policemen came with a car and
6 stopped us.
7 Q. Can you describe what type of a car?
8 A. It was a dark blue Golf.
9 Q. And you saw two men in the car?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you said they were policemen. How do you know that?
12 A. Yes, they were. The policeman was here and got out of the car and
13 came up to us.
14 Q. Was he wearing a uniform?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was it the same uniform that you described before?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What was the difference?
19 A. This uniform had three colours too, but it was dark green, light
20 green, and yellowish-brown.
21 Q. Do you remember seeing that uniform in the photos that you looked
22 at right before?
23 A. It's something similar to number 10, but not exactly the same.
24 Q. What is the difference?
25 A. The colours were sort of lighter, and it had on the arm something
1 like an eagle, but I don't really know what to say. It was -- it was a
2 Serbian flag. I don't really know what sort they have there, and I can't
3 describe it exactly.
4 Q. No problem. Thank you, Witness. And were they armed?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What kind of weapons?
7 A. They had pistols, an axe, and I don't know what else. And I don't
8 know what else, but those two things I remember very well.
9 Q. Witness, you said that one of the men got off the car. And did he
10 speak to you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What did he say?
13 A. First they asked for our identity cards. I had my identity card,
14 but my aunt didn't.
15 Q. Was he speaking in Albanian or Serbian?
16 A. Serbian.
17 Q. So he asked for your IDs?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you give him your ID?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did he keep your ID?
22 A. Yes, he kept it. And then he -- he didn't give it back.
23 Q. What did he say, ask, or order you to do after that?
24 A. He told my aunt to go home.
25 Q. Did she go home?
1 A. Yes. Yes. She set off.
2 Q. And you and your cousin remained there?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then what happened after?
5 A. The police asked -- the policeman asked me how old I was, and I
6 told him. And he asked, "Are you married?" and I said, "No, I'm not
7 married." No, first -- first he asked me where my husband was, and I
8 said, "I'm not married." And he asked, "Why aren't you married?" and I
9 said, "I'm just not." And then he asked do I have brothers, and I said,
10 "Yes, I have [redacted]." "And how old are they?" and I said, "One is 13." And
11 I'm not sure what I said, but I know that I didn't tell the truth. And he
12 asked me who do I with live, and I told him that I live with my mother,
13 father, and brothers.
14 Q. Why didn't you tell him the truth about your brother?
15 A. Because I was frightened that they would go to my home and take my
16 brothers and kill them, and I don't know.
17 Q. Were you forced to get into the car at any time?
18 A. Yes. During the conversation, he asked, "Do you have anybody, any
19 strangers in the house?" And I said -- and they said, "Are you sure?"
20 And I said, "No, we don't." And he said, "Now -- now we'll go to your
21 home and see who's there." And I said, "Okay. No problem." And he said,
22 "Get into the car. We'll go. We'll go." And I said, "There's no
23 problem." I said, "I'll walk and you follow in the car."
24 Q. So did you walk?
25 A. No. Then he took out his pistol and forced me into the car.
1 Q. And what happened to your cousin?
2 A. And he came with me and they forced both of us into the car.
3 Q. So again with the help of the sketch, can you please describe
4 where did they take you to?
5 A. We set off on this road along here and went up there and then
6 turned right along this road, straight, and then -- and then they turned
7 right again. Then they went up to the left. And I said -- when he turned
8 left, I said, "We should turn right to go to my home." And they looked at
9 each other and laughed.
10 Q. So when and where did the car stop?
11 A. It went straight up there to the place where the arrow is there
12 and there it stopped.
13 Q. Can you describe what kind of place is this? Is this a house?
14 A. Yes, it's a house.
15 Q. Have you been before in this house?
16 A. No.
17 Q. After arriving at the house, what happened?
18 A. They went in with the car, but they couldn't get into -- into the
19 yard with the car. And here they stopped, where the arrow is here. And
20 one of them got out of the car and went up to the door of the house. He
21 wasn't able to open it, so he kicked it and broke the door down. He was a
22 very strong man.
23 Q. Witness, this was early April; isn't it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you remember exactly the day?
1 A. No.
2 Q. At what time of the day was that?
3 A. It was in the morning, after 10.00. I'm not sure exactly, but it
4 was the morning.
5 Q. That was the time when you arrived at this house?
6 A. It was between 10.00 and 11.00. I'm not sure.
7 Q. So after they broke the house, the door of the house, did you get
9 A. He opened the door and looked round for a while and then took us
10 out of the car and forced us to go into this house here.
11 Q. And what happened inside the house? Where were you taken to?
12 A. Once they forced us in, they separated us in a room which was
13 close to the exit door. They sent my cousin to the corridor or another
14 room, I do not know.
15 Q. And where did they send you?
16 A. They sent me to this house here. There was a door right there,
17 and there was a room. I do not know how many rooms there were. I only
18 know that there was a room where I was sent.
19 Q. Can you describe the room?
20 A. It was -- there was a door on the left. There was a kind of long
21 wardrobe, and on the other side there was something either like a desk or
22 a sewing machine, and then there was a big bed.
23 Q. And what happened after you -- after you arrived in this room?
24 A. I was in the room with one policeman. He was there with me, and
25 he said, "Do you have money with you?" I said, "Yes. I have 400
1 dinars." That's what I had at the time. I do not know what their value
2 is. He opened my bag and searched through my bag and took my purse out.
3 Q. And what did he do next?
4 A. He said, "Do you have Deutschmarks?" I said, "No, I don't have
6 Q. So what did he do next?
7 A. After that, he said, "Take your clothes off to see whether you
8 have money, Deutschmarks, in your body -- correction, on your body."
9 Q. And did you take your clothes?
10 A. I did not take my clothes off myself. He took my jumper off. He
11 took off my sweater -- correction, my body. He took all my clothes off,
12 everything that I was wearing.
13 Q. And did he search you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How did he do that?
16 A. He took my clothes off also on the lower part of my body. He took
17 my pants off and everything I had on.
18 Q. And how did they search you? How did he search you? After he
19 took your clothes off, he continued searching?
20 A. Yes. He had me lay down on the bed, and I was laying the same way
21 I am sitting on the chair right now, only my back part was laying down.
22 He pushed my legs open, and he looked at my genital organs to see whether
23 I was hiding any money. He placed his finger there.
24 Q. And did he do anything else at the time or did he leave the room?
25 A. I objected to opening my legs wide, and he hit me with a gun or
1 something that he had in his hand. I only know that he hit me on my leg.
2 Q. And after that, did he do anything else?
3 A. After that, he said, "Now we will entertain ourselves a little
5 Q. And then what happened?
6 A. Then when I realised what was going to happen to us, I begged him
7 to -- not to do anything to my cousin. I said, "You can do anything you
8 want to me, but do not touch my cousin."
9 Q. And then what happened?
10 A. She was very young, and -- how can I say?
11 Q. Take your time.
12 A. Then he said, "I will go now and see." I don't know. He left the
13 room and then the other policeman came in. He came into the room where I
15 Q. Was the second man also the policeman who was in the car with
16 you? It was the same man?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So after he entered the room, what did he do?
19 A. He took off his clothes in the lower part of his body and he
20 approached me. I was on the bed. I was wrapped in a blanket.
21 Q. Were you still naked?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. After he took his pants down, he approached you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What did he do?
1 A. He pushed my legs open, he took away my blanket, he pushed my legs
2 wide open, and he was trying to approach me.
3 Q. And after this, how many times did he try to approach you?
4 A. I don't know. The bed was big, and it went on until I went as
5 close as the corner of the bed, and there was no way further I could go.
6 Q. Then what happened?
7 A. And he started raping me.
8 Q. By "rape," you mean what?
9 A. I don't know. He was penetrating me all the time. I was trying
10 to push him off - correction - to fight him off, but I couldn't.
11 Q. Did you have pain?
12 A. Yes, very much pain.
13 Q. And did he say anything while he was penetrating you?
14 A. Yes. He said, "You are a bad woman." How can I say? He said, in
15 Serbian, "Bad chick." He said this type of words.
16 Q. Did you scream or did you cry?
17 A. I did not scream, not even for one moment. I did not scream. I
18 only cried. Tears were going down my cheeks, but I did not want my cousin
19 to hear my screaming and my pain.
20 Q. Did there come a time when he stopped doing this and left the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what happened after he left the room?
24 A. He left. As long as he was in the position, during which time I
25 was in bed, the other policeman came in and said something like, "Hurry
1 up. Go faster." And then he turned his back on me and took
2 me -- actually, I did not give off any sign or so. I do not know how that
3 ended up, but he turned me with his back on him [as interpreted], and then
4 when it was over, he left the room and another policeman walked in.
5 Q. This policeman that walked in was the same one that was the first
6 time with you, that tried to search you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So he came back, and after he entered the room, what did he do?
9 A. He took his pants off as low as his knees, and he had a gun in one
10 hand and told me to open my mouth and he placed his genital organ in my
11 mouth. I felt like throwing up. I was almost exploding. Then he turned
12 me with his back towards him [as interpreted] and penetrated me until he
13 finished whatever it is that he was doing.
14 Q. And did there come a time when he left the room?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then what happened after? What happened to you?
17 A. Then we were sent outside that house, in the street here. They
18 gave me my ID card back and told us -- they said, "Keep going this way,
19 because you cannot go this other way." They said, "Go to town and buy
20 whatever it is that you wanted to buy." And then, "Do not tell anything
21 about what happened, because if you do, we will come back to you and
22 exterminate you."
23 Q. Do you know if they hurt or harmed your cousin while she was in
24 the house?
25 A. No. Fortunately, she was saved. Only her lip was hurt, nothing
1 else besides that.
2 Q. Can you - again, with the help of the sketch - can you very
3 briefly describe the route that you and your cousin took back home, and
4 what, if anything, you saw?
5 A. We set off on this street which leads to here. We stopped here.
6 There were cars. I knew that if we went straight on this direction, there
7 were policemen, plus there were cars coming from all directions, and
8 certainly there were policemen, because other people did not dare go out,
9 did not dare go out on foot let alone by car. So we returned this
10 direction, on the railway track. By the track, we stopped for a while
11 because we saw many policemen who were sunbathing and playing music. In
12 this site there was a car with policemen coming, and he obviously saw us,
13 because he was pushing the car pedal really hard. And so he was waiting
14 for us to go out on the street, but we crossed the place very quickly, so
15 he was unable to reach us by car. And because of this, he took his gun
16 outside the car and fired, and we heard the bullets that were fired and
17 reached some place very close to us but couldn't seize us. So we quickly
18 reached to turn on the right side, and we saw a dead person there.
19 Q. Witness, why were there so many policemen?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. And why were people so afraid of the police?
22 A. Because every time police stopped them, they maltreated them.
23 Maybe not everybody was beaten or raped, but if I can say, there were
25 Q. After you arrived home, how were you feeling?
1 A. Very bad. Exhausted. I don't know. I took too many sleeping
2 pills, many. I was shaking. I felt cold. I took sleeping pills. I
3 tried to take a rest. I don't know.
4 Q. Did you have pain?
5 A. I did have pain.
6 Q. Was there a time when you and the rest of your family left Kosovo?
7 A. Not with the family, but my parents and my [redacted]brothers stayed at
8 home, whereas myself and my aunt went to Macedonia, set off towards
10 Q. And how many people left with you?
11 A. [redacted]
12 [redacted]. Maybe 20 people, maybe more. I don't know.
13 Q. And why you all decided to leave?
14 A. Because we were scared. We were not safe staying there. We were
15 not safe about anything. We didn't know what was going to befall on us.
16 Q. Were you scared about the NATO bombing?
17 A. No. I was never scared of that.
18 Q. Were you scared about the KLA or the fighting between KLA and the
19 Serb forces?
20 A. I don't know. I knew that the KLA existed. I never saw any of
21 them. They were not close to us. I don't know. I don't know what to say
22 in regard to this. I was not scared too much.
23 Q. So why --
24 A. I was only scared because of the Serb policemen, the Serbs.
25 Q. Can you please describe to the Court, how did you travel to the
2 A. Yes. From [redacted]'til -- we set off from [redacted]actually at
3 5.00 in the morning from the street, on the 21st, from the street where
4 the [redacted] is. So we were on a bus.
5 Q. 21st of which month?
6 A. 21st of May.
7 Q. Thank you. You can continue.
8 A. We went on the bus and travelled on the bus until [redacted].
9 From [redacted], we took the train. And then on the 21st of May, we
10 travelled until [redacted]. In [redacted], we were sent back. A policeman or
11 something like a policeman who was wearing a dark blue uniform went on the
12 train and said, "You cannot go further because we don't know what's
13 happening on the other side." He simply said, "You cannot go further,"
14 and made us go back to a village where they were left on a meadow.
15 Q. How many people were travelling with you in the train?
16 A. There were many. I don't know. Maybe 2, 3.000, 4.000, maybe
17 more. I don't know.
18 Q. Did you have to pay for the trip?
19 A. Yes. I paid 100 dinars. I myself paid that sum. I don't know
20 about the others. I know that I gave -- I paid 100 dinars in order to go
21 to Macedonia.
22 Q. Who you paid? To whom you give the money?
23 A. I do not remember. I don't know. I only know that I paid that
25 Q. When you say -- if you were sent back, you were sent back to a
1 field. Can you describe this location?
2 A. In that meadow, we stayed until 5.00 p.m. We didn't know what was
3 going to happen to us. Maybe it was 5.00. And there was a very young
4 Serb who -- actually, two persons who came there by horse and cart. One
5 of them was riding the horse. And before us there were some armed Serbs
6 who started shooting at us.
7 Q. Where was this meadow located? What was the village next to this
9 A. The meadow was near [redacted]village, and before it was the
10 railway. In the back, there was [redacted] [phoen] village, and then on the
11 left side, there was a Serb village, and before that, there was another
12 Serb village, but that's as much as I know.
13 Q. So what happened while you were in the -- you and the other people
14 were in this field?
15 A. They started shooting, and we left the place in all different
16 directions. We were directed towards a place where there were some
17 trees. And a woman went out from one of those houses and said, "Do not go
18 there." She said, "Go someplace further down in the village, because we
19 do not dare go there because there our Serb neighbours have killed some
20 people, so they would kill you too."
21 Q. Witness, first, who was shooting?
22 A. The Serbs. Those young men were wearing green soldier clothes. I
23 don't know about other ones, but I remember their beards. Not beards. I
24 remember the -- the hoods they had, that they wore on their heads.
25 Q. And why did the woman tell you not to go to the place?
1 A. I don't know. Someone said that Serbs had -- had hidden arms, and
2 probably because of the presence of weapons, maybe NATO might attack you
3 and -- implying that NATO was not fighting against them but against the
4 Albanian population.
5 Q. So you are saying that there was ammunition hidden in that place?
6 A. That's what I heard. I don't know. I'm not certain. I did not
7 see it myself.
8 Q. And the reason for the ammunition was to attract the NATO?
9 JUDGE MAY: This is by no means clear. Yes, Ms. Romano. We're
10 almost at the end of the evidence. It might be helpful if we could finish
11 in the next few minutes.
12 MS. ROMANO: Yes, Your Honour, we will finish, but I wanted to
13 clarify what the witness said before here, that "maybe NATO might attack
14 you." The witness implied that the ammunition was hidden there.
15 JUDGE MAY: She said that somebody said that Serbs had hidden
16 arms, and probably because of the presence of weapons that "maybe NATO
17 might attack you."
18 MS. ROMANO: That's what I wanted to clarify. That was what the
19 witness wanted to say, or what she heard.
20 JUDGE MAY: That's what she said.
21 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.
22 Q. So did you board another train?
23 A. Yes. That night, we slept in one house in [redacted]. The next
24 day, we took the train and set off towards Macedonia.
25 Q. Do you remember if the train was full?
1 A. Yes. There were 13 to 15 cars, and the corridors even were
2 filled, were full of people.
3 Q. Were the police or army on board on the train you took?
4 A. I don't know. I don't remember. Maybe there were in the first
5 cars, maybe the first and the second one, but I don't know.
6 Q. And at the border, what happened?
7 A. At the border, we went in a crowd, five by five. They were
8 counting us, and they took down notes on a piece of paper. They would
9 draw four straight lines, and then they would draw a fifth horizontal line
10 across them and then they let us go, they'd let us cross.
11 Q. When did you come back to Kosovo?
12 A. Soon after the NATO deployment.
13 Q. Are you still suffering from what happened to you?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. ROMANO: No further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now.
13 Page 2591 – redacted – closed session
13 Page 2592 – redacted – closed session
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day
5 of April 2002, at 9.30 a.m.