Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber
1 Tuesday, 9 April 2002
2 [Closed session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
7 WITNESS: WITNESS K16 [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for --
11 JUDGE MAY: It's on, yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [In English] Yes, it is.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. I'm sorry if what happened to you happened. And you say that it
15 happened at the beginning of April and that you left [redacted]in the
16 second half of May, which means that from the event to your departure from
17 [redacted], about six weeks went by.
18 Did you report the incident to anyone?
19 A. In what place are you thinking?
20 Q. I mean, for example, did you report it to the police station or
21 the court or the prosecutor's office or the municipality or the social
22 services or to any of the authorities, in fact?
23 A. You mean in [redacted]?
24 Q. Well, in [redacted]. You didn't live in a village. You're from
25 [redacted], aren't you?
Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber
1 A. Yes. When my uncle's wife came back -- went back home and told
2 him that the police had taken the daughters, my grandmother went to the
3 police and reported the case. She said, "Two policemen took the girls,"
4 and the policemen laughed at her. They asked her, "Were they pretty? How
5 were they?"
6 Q. You had the municipality. You had the office of the prosecutor.
7 You had a series of other organs. You had the courts.
8 A. We didn't have anything.
9 Q. You haven't heard of the municipality and the social welfare
10 service, for example, as part of the municipality?
11 A. I heard about them, but they never were of any help to us.
12 Q. Well, that's what it's usually like until you ask for help and
13 assistance. But once you ask for it, then the service is at the disposal
14 of the people that come and ask for assistance.
15 So you didn't contact any of those?
16 A. Had they been the ones to help us, we wouldn't have been
17 maltreated at all.
18 Q. My question was: Did you report the incident to anybody, and did
19 you complain to anybody about it, and you say you did not. Did I
20 understand you correctly?
21 A. No, I did not report the case.
22 Q. You described in greater detail in your statement what happened;
23 that it was in the periphery of [redacted], not in the rural area, in the
24 village. It was on the outskirts of [redacted]. And two men in a dark blue
25 Golf stopped, as you say here in the statement, and that's what you said
Public Redacted Version of Previous Closed Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber
1 too, I believe, and that there were no number plates on the car. That's
2 what it says here. The car had no registration plates. You say, "On the
3 way, we were stopped by two men in a dark blue Golf car. The car had no
4 registration plates."
5 A. I said there were two persons, and it was a blue -- dark blue
6 Golf, and there were two policemen. They had uniforms. The uniform was
7 in two green colours and a brown colour.
8 Q. Yes. Go ahead, please.
9 A. It's not brown but yellow.
10 Q. The car had no registration plates. That's what you said.
11 A. No.
12 Q. And the man who got out had a small pistol in his hand. That's
13 what you said, a small pistol.
14 A. Yes. He had a gun.
15 Q. I have heard the interpreters say "revolver." Was it a revolver
16 or a pistol?
17 A. It was -- I had never seen a handgun before, but it was this big.
18 I don't know what "revolver" means and what "handgun" means, but it was
19 the first time in my life I saw a handgun like that.
20 Q. So two men in a dark blue Golf car, with no registration plates,
21 one of them holding a small pistol in his hand, as you say. Let's see
22 another piece of information that we have here. They had insignias on the
23 sleeves of their shirts, and I can see here, according to what it says, a
24 remark by the interviewer says that the witness recognised the insignia on
25 a photograph shown to her as being members of the units of Republika
2 Did you think that perhaps one of those two men with a small
3 pistol -- that the police do not move around in a car with no number
4 plates? Did you perhaps think that they were not policemen but
5 criminals? Did that occur to you?
6 A. This happened during the war. All the policemen had taken the
7 cars from people and removed the number plates because they were scared,
8 or I don't know why. And so during that time, there were normal police
9 cars, but they would also go around in private cars without number plates.
10 Q. And they had uniforms that didn't belong to them on; is that what
11 you're saying?
12 A. No. No. They had uniforms, but they were the uniforms that you
13 gave them yourself.
14 Q. Without going into who supplied them with the uniforms, you
15 recognised the uniforms as being the uniforms of the army of Republika
17 JUDGE MAY: It can be put to the witness.
18 What is suggested is that you identified the uniforms as those of
19 the army of Republika Srpska. Did you do that or not?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not distinguish the
21 uniforms. I didn't know whether they belonged to Republika Srpska or who
22 else, but I knew that they were Serbs, the persons who were wearing these
23 uniforms were Serbs, and I do not know where they came from or where they
24 may have come from.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. I'm asking you the following -- that is to say, I asked you the
2 question because those uniforms, after the war in Bosnia, could be bought
3 at any marketplace, as usually happens after wars. They were readily
4 available at marketplaces. So they were driving a car with no
5 registration plates, they did not wear police uniforms, they had some
6 small pistol in their hands. An official pistol officially issued is
7 rather large. So did it occur to you that these weren't in fact
8 policemen, but criminals?
9 A. They may have been criminals that you paid. How can I know that?
10 Q. I'm asking you, in view of the very noticeable characteristics,
11 characteristic features, whether that had occurred to you. You say no,
12 unless I paid them, unless they were in my pay, but as you know, there
13 were a lot of criminals during the war.
14 JUDGE MAY: She has dealt with that. She said they may have been
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You said that there was nothing going on in [redacted], no
18 unpleasantness. [redacted]is rather large. There are about 15.000
19 inhabitants; is that right?
20 A. I do not know how many inhabitants live in [redacted].
21 Q. Yesterday the Prosecutor asked you whether the Albanians were
22 mistreated in [redacted], where there were several thousand people living,
23 and you said you saw one Albanian who claimed that he had been beaten by
24 the police. And that's all you saw of any abuse or maltreatment; is that
1 A. I saw that personally. I saw that person being beaten, because he
2 was very close to me. He was a neighbour. And I've also heard about
3 other people. However, I have not seen them.
4 Q. You said yesterday, and I made a note of this: "I saw one example
5 of a man who was beaten, who had been beaten." And these are your words,
6 the following: "He said that he had been beaten by the police."
7 So yesterday you did say that you had seen it but that he had said
8 that that had happened to him. Now you say you saw it. Which of the two
9 is correct? Did you see it or did he tell you? Were you saying what
10 actually happened yesterday or were you saying what happened today?
11 A. I think it's the same. If I had seen him or if he had told me
12 that that had happened to him, you should understand that if I say that I
13 saw him, I really saw him. I'm not blind. When I speak to someone, I
14 look at that person.
15 Q. I'm not asking you whether you saw him. That's what you said.
16 But you didn't see him actually being beaten. What happened was that he
17 told you that he had been beaten; is that right? Is that right?
18 A. I saw him after he was beaten. I did not see him while he was
19 being beaten.
20 Q. All right. Thank you. You also said that, apart from that small
21 pistol, they had an axe. Where was that axe? Where did they have that
22 axe? I'm talking about the two men.
23 A. The policemen had the axe inside the car. After I went into the
24 car, I saw it there. And after we left the car to go into the house that
25 I mentioned, they took the axe with them.
1 Q. Policemen with an axe, with small pistols, with a uniform from a
2 marketplace, and a car with no registration plates.
3 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's a comment, Mr. Milosevic.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You said that they took away some money from you. How much
8 A. I did not say -- they did not take my money. I only said they
9 asked for Deutschmarks. I did not have any Deutschmarks, so they gave the
10 money back to me and then said, "Go to the shop where you were going to go
11 and buy what you wanted to buy earlier."
12 Q. So they didn't take anything from you, in fact?
13 A. Well, they took enough. They took enough, if you really want to
14 know. There was nothing more they could have taken from me.
15 Q. I'm talking about the material goods.
16 You went off to Macedonia alone, and your family stayed on in
17 [redacted]. Did I understand you correctly?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Why did you decide to go on your own although your family
21 A. I could no longer live there. I was under stress. I was
22 shaking. I was really scared. The policemen were coming all the time.
23 They were robbing and stealing from people along the way, and I was afraid
24 that the same thing that happened to me would be repeated.
25 Q. I didn't understand you very well yesterday when you gave an
1 explanation about when you were travelling, how they -- travelling to
2 Macedonia, how they forced you to go among some trees, as I understood you
3 to say. And then you said that they told you that Serbs had hidden some
4 weapons in that place or some ammunition. Once it was ammunition, the
5 next time weapons, but never mind. And that they forced you to go there
6 so that NATO could bomb that ammunition and then you would die. That was
7 the explanation given, as far as I was able to gather, by the Prosecutor;
8 is that right? Is that what you said? Is that the explanation you gave?
9 A. The Serbs fired against us when we were in that field, and they
10 directed us towards those trees in order to spend the night there. And on
11 our way there, a woman came out of one of the houses nearby and said, "Do
12 not go there, because they have hidden ammunition there." And she said,
13 "It may happen that NATO may bomb that place and then they may -- they
14 will blame NATO for killing you."
15 Q. I heard that the Prosecutor explained yesterday that you had said
16 that you were forced to go there so that NATO could bomb you. Did I
17 understand that incorrectly?
18 A. Maybe you misunderstood it.
19 Q. Obviously I misunderstood. You also said that, in the train, they
20 took money from you for the ticket. And it says here: "We had to give
21 some money to the conductor -- conductors that boarded the train. I gave
22 140 dinars to one of them, and he returned 40, said, `Something for us and
23 something for you.' At that time, 140 dinars was about ten marks, ten
24 German marks."
25 So he -- you had to pay for the ticket. Do you think that he took
1 [as interpreted] You more money than the ticket cost or was that the money
2 required to pay for the ticket? Is that how much the ticket cost?
3 A. I said I paid 100 dinars for the ticket. The ticket -- I know the
4 ticket cost less than that. I mean, he did not return the rest that he
5 was supposed to return to me. He said, "Something for you and something
6 for us."
7 Q. He gave you 40 dinars change back; is that right?
8 A. No. No. If you really want to know this, he did not return any
9 of the rest to me -- correction, change.
10 Q. But you wrote that he gave you 40 dinars back. That's in your
11 statement, the statement that you signed.
12 A. As far as I remember, I did not say that he returned 40 dinars to
14 Q. It's on page 5 of your statement. It says: "I gave one of them
15 140 dinars, and he gave me back 40, saying, `Some for us and some for
16 you.'" And that's what conductors very often say.
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You have some copies.
18 MS. ROMANO: Yes.
19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's have a copy of the statement.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. It's on the last page of your statement. It's as you were
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues]...
24 JUDGE MAY: Exhibit what number, please?
25 THE REGISTRAR: [redacted], and it will be kept under seal.
1 JUDGE MAY: Witness K16, what was being put to you is that in the
2 statement which you made in June of 1999, you said:
3 "When we got on the train, we had to give some money to the
4 conductors who got on the train. I gave one of them 140 dinars and he
5 gave me back 40, saying, 'Some for us and some for you.'"
6 Now, can you clarify that? It appears in your statement. Do you
7 remember if it's right or not? And the question is: Did you -- did he
8 give you back 40? If you can't remember, just say so.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. At the end, you said that you got on the train, that you travelled
12 to Macedonia on that train, and that they didn't stop you until you got to
13 Blace. Blace is in Macedonia. Therefore, no one prevented you,
14 mistreated you, said an ugly word to you; is that right?
15 A. I know for a fact that when we set off on our trip on the second
16 day, no one said a word to us.
17 Q. So you went to Macedonia of your own free will?
18 A. I didn't really want to go, but conditions were such that I
19 couldn't stay.
20 Q. But your family stayed under those same conditions?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. This was an ordinary passenger train on its regular journey across
23 the border that you took, wasn't it?
24 A. It was a normal passenger train, carrying people.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I
4 wouldn't really have any questions for this witness had the Court not been
5 provided with her earlier statement. So now I'd like to refer to that
6 statement. A few sentences below this mention of 140 dinars, there's a
7 point I'd like to clear up.
8 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
9 Q. Madam Witness, you said yesterday that on this field, they shot at
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But in this earlier statement, on the same page, just below where
13 you said how much you paid the conductor, you said: "They didn't shoot at
14 us." This was in your earlier statement, that you saw people with weapons
15 but that they didn't shoot at you.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I wonder whether this is a problem in
17 mistaken translation, but in the English version, it says that:
18 "We had to stay in a field there until about 1700 hours and then
19 the paramilitaries started shooting into the air from across the rail
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] In the air, yes, but then the
22 next sentence says: "They didn't shoot at us." Next sentence: "They
23 didn't shoot at us." It is quite correct. They shot into the air, but
24 she said: "They didn't shoot at us."
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 JUDGE MAY: Well, we've noted that.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 Q. I would also like to ask: Since you stayed in [redacted]from the
4 24th of March until the 21st of May, you remained living with your
5 family. Close to your house, were there any shells falling on [redacted]in
6 general, shells dropped by NATO forces?
7 A. There was no bombing by NATO forces near us.
8 Q. In [redacted]? But what about [redacted]?
9 A. There was bombing in [redacted], as far as I've heard.
10 Q. Did you hear the explosions in [redacted], and if you did, how many
12 A. I heard explosions -- I heard explosions in [redacted], but where
13 they were, I don't know.
14 Q. If you can tell us, tell us, please; if you can't, you can't. How
15 frequently did you hear those explosions?
16 A. I'm very sorry, but I wasn't able to say how many times they
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.
20 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:
21 Q. Witness, you said that you did not report the incident, the rape.
22 Maybe it would be helpful for the Judges and for the Court to know the
23 consequences for a Kosovo woman if they report an incident such like
24 that. Can you just describe this for us, how hard it is and what are the
1 A. It's a terrible thing. People laugh at you. They don't take into
2 account whether you were forced to do it or -- they look at you with a bad
3 eye and they don't want to stay with you. They now think that I am a
4 spoiled person.
5 Q. And what about any marriage prospects?
6 A. I don't know about these people. I think I can't.
7 Q. Take your time.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Have you anything else, Ms. Romano?
9 MS. ROMANO: Just one more question.
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Can you deal with one more question, please?
11 MS. ROMANO: Just one more.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 MS. ROMANO:
14 Q. Witness, it was alleged that the two men - by the accused - that
15 the two men were in the car and stopped and, after, raped you, they were
16 simple criminals. When they stopped -- when the car stopped and they
17 talked to you, they asked you for ID; isn't it correct?
18 A. Yes. First they asked for my ID, and I think that criminals never
19 ask for your ID.
20 Q. And they were wearing uniforms?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you used to see -- you also refer to a lot of policemen in
23 your neighbourhood. They all wore uniforms?
24 A. Yes, they were in uniform.
25 Q. And that was also the regular police that you used to see before
1 the war?
2 A. The regular police that I saw before the war, I saw them during
3 the war, looting.
4 Q. And you also mentioned that they were driving cars with no
5 registration plates. Was that common?
6 A. Yes, it's true.
7 Q. And why the police was driving cars with no registration plates?
8 Do you know?
9 A. Perhaps to hide themselves from NATO and to go on -- in for
10 looting and so that people wouldn't know that policemen are going in for
12 Q. Thank you, Witness.
13 MS. ROMANO: No further questions.
14 JUDGE MAY: Witness K16, that concludes your evidence. Thank you
15 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 [The witness withdrew]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
13 Pages 2609-2631 – redacted – closed session
1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.03 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE MAY: One preliminary matter and it's this: The Trial
5 Chamber today heard an application in closed session in relation to the
6 evidence of a particular witness. The application was for the evidence to
7 be heard in closed session. The Trial Chamber rejected the application,
8 the nature of the evidence not being such that, when weighed against the
9 need for a public trial, that such an order was warranted. The transcript
10 of the ruling will be released in due course.
11 Yes. We'll hear the next witness.
12 MS. ROMANO: Mr. Andras Riedlmayer. Your Honours, the Chamber as
13 well as the amici and the accused, they have the report that is entitled
14 "The Destruction of Cultural Heritage in Kosovo 1998, 1999." The
15 report's composed by an executive summary and although the survey contains
16 a database of approximately hundreds of sites, the Prosecution has just
17 disclosed extracts related to the sites alleged in the indictment.
18 In arriving at The Hague, Mr. Riedlmayer, he brought with him
19 blown-up photos and photos with a better quality of the indictment sites
20 as well as some additional photos. They are the same photos that we have
21 already disclosed but they are in a better quality. And the Prosecution
22 produced this booklet containing the summary report and all the photos
23 separated in order by the indictment sites, and so we propose to introduce
24 this as an exhibit. And that will be used by Mr. Riedlmayer during his
1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Ms. Romano, you can take this evidence
2 fairly shortly since we have the report.
3 MS. ROMANO: Yes. I just would like to make it easy for the Court
4 to be able to understand and later on to use the report --
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
6 MS. ROMANO: -- more efficiently.
7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.
11 WITNESS: ANDRAS RIEDLMAYER
12 MS. ROMANO: Can I give you the copies? And, Your Honours, I also
13 don't think the Chamber has Mr. Riedlmayer's curriculum vitae, what I
14 would propose to introduce as an exhibit, and instead of going through it
15 in detail and just ask a few questions about his experience and
17 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 88.
18 MS. ROMANO: Thank you. And I have here the curriculum and
20 Examined by Ms. Romano:
21 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, can you please state your full name to the Court.
22 A. Andras Janos Riedlmayer.
23 Q. You're currently the bibliographer for the Documentation Center
24 for Islamic Architecture, Aga Khan Program, Fine Arts Library at Harvard
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. And according to your CV, you have university degree, more
3 specifically, two masters --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between answer
5 and question. Thank you.
6 MS. ROMANO:
7 Q. -- and in library --
8 JUDGE MAY: You're being asked to slow down, Ms. Romano.
9 MS. ROMANO: Oh.
10 Q. And from Princeton, and in Library and Information Science from
11 Simmons College of Boston?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. For several years, you have been focused on the study of
14 documentation of destruction of cultural heritage. That's correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And as an art documentation specialist, when and how did you get
17 involved in the research and study of destruction of cultural heritage,
18 and particularly in the Balkans region?
19 A. Yes. I've been working as an art documentation specialist for
20 more than 15 years. I've been working on the study of the history and
21 culture of the Balkans for some 30 years now. In the late 1980s, I was
22 working on a project on the protection of cultural property in armed
23 conflict and compiling a bibliography on it. When the conflict in the
24 Balkans broke out, I immediately saw reports of the destruction of
25 cultural property and I started collecting information with a view towards
1 studying it.
2 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, can you just briefly describe any prior works that
3 you have done in this field --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- before the Kosovo project.
6 A. During the war in Bosnia between 1992 and 1995, I did a series of
7 studies on the destruction of libraries and archives and the destruction
8 of historical architecture. Some of these were published, others were
9 presented as documentary films. And I also testified before the
10 Commission for Security and Cooperation in Europe on cultural destruction
11 in Bosnia.
12 Q. And the articles and the lectures are all listed in your
13 curriculum --
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. That's correct? Mr. Riedlmayer, I would like to just go into the
16 background of the survey, the background of the report. As you said, in
17 the course of your work in 1998, you became aware of the fact that in
18 Kosova, various sites of cultural heritage were possibly being damaged or
19 destroyed. From that time, you started to collect the information. Can
20 you just tell the Court what kind of information?
21 A. When the conflict began in 1998, there were reports in the media,
22 starting in the summer of 1998, that suggested that cultural heritage may
23 have been targeted by either side. There were also various allegations
24 coming from various governmental and unofficial sources. At the time, I
25 was simply at the level of collecting this information. When the war
1 broke out in March with the NATO bombardment of Yugoslavia, the
2 allegations multiplied while the sources of information narrowed
3 considerably because of the absence of independent observers in Kosovo.
4 Q. Thank you. And the sources that you are referring to, they are
5 listed in Appendix 3 of your report, in pages 23 to 24; that's correct?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. They are the reports by Yugoslav governmental and professional
8 institutions, and reports by Kosovar refugees, and media accounts; that's
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. When and how the idea of a Kosovo cultural heritage project came
13 A. At the end of hostilities in June of 1999, it was clear to me that
14 someone would have to establish what had happened with regard to cultural
15 heritage in Kosovo. Reporters were flooding back into Kosovo, and while
16 they rarely covered cultural heritage as such, they mentioned the
17 destruction and there were lots of pictures broadcast. I made inquiries
18 with UNESCO to see whether they were pursuing any systematic study, and
19 the answer was no. I put out an Internet appeal, and Mr. Andrew Herscher,
20 an architect whom I had known professionally, approached me with the idea
21 that we should do a study together.
22 Q. So this was when? June?
23 A. This was the end of June/beginning of July 1999.
24 Q. And so you and Mr. Andrew Herscher undertook the project?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. And can you just give also to the Court the qualifications of
2 Mr. Herscher?
3 A. Yes. Mr. Herscher is a trained architect. He has degrees in
4 architecture from Princeton University and Harvard University and is
5 completing a doctorate in architectural history, theory, and criticism.
6 He has also worked in the Balkans for the past ten years, including
7 assessment of war damage in Mostar after the war in Bosnia.
8 Q. And how did you and Mr. Herscher, how did you obtain funding for
9 the project?
10 A. We first approached Harvard's Centre for Middle Eastern Studies to
11 ask if they would act as our institutional sponsors for such a project.
12 After they indicated that they would be agreeable, we approached the
13 Packard Humanities Institute, an American-registered charity that supports
14 conservation of archeological sites and cultural heritage, and they agreed
15 to provide funding for the expenses of our project.
16 Q. Thank you. What were the goals of the Kosovo project?
17 A. Our project had three basic goals. One was to establish the fact
18 of what had happened, the second was to provide a basis for post-war
19 reconstruction, and the third was to provide material that could be useful
20 to the ICTY in its work.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Riedlmayer, could you kindly put a pause between
22 the question and answer. Bear in mind the translation.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 MS. ROMANO: Please, Mr. Riedlmayer, can you just wait after I
25 make my question until you answer, otherwise it won't be possible for
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 MS. ROMANO:
4 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, the study focused on damage to architectural
5 heritage from the three major religious communities: Islamic, Roman
6 Catholic and Serb Orthodox, as well as damage to the historical civil
7 architecture; that's correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And how did you and Mr. Herscher -- sorry. No. First, can you
10 give us a brief overview what constitutes an Islamic, Roman Catholic, or
11 Serbian Orthodox site?
12 A. Those are the three principal religious communities in Kosovo.
13 Each of them has houses of worship. In addition to houses of worship,
14 there are also other buildings. In the case of Islamic, the house of
15 worship would be a mosque or a dervish lodge or a tekke or Koran schools
16 and other educational institutions, also religious libraries and
17 archives. In the case of the two Christian communities, the Catholic and
18 the Serbian Orthodox, we are dealing primarily with churches and
19 monasteries, but the Serbian Orthodox Church also has a seminary in
21 Q. Among all the sites that are listed in Kosovo, how did you and
22 Mr. Herscher select the ones to be included in the survey?
23 A. We based our work on several categories. First we surveyed the
24 published literature on heritage in Kosovo, the publications of the
25 Monuments Protection authorities, and the scientific literature. From
1 that we compiled a list, as well as any published pre-war documentation on
2 these sites.
3 Our second category was sites about which there had been
4 allegations of damage. These are the allegations listed in Appendix
5 number 3.
6 Q. Approximately how many sites in total the survey contain?
7 A. The survey has 560 sites, which actually covers a larger number of
8 buildings because some sites have more than one building.
9 Q. And that includes religious sites and also civil architecture?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. After the sites were selected, the database was developed, the
12 information was gathered, you start the research, and you went to Kosovo?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. When was that?
15 A. We did our first fieldwork in Kosovo during the month of October
17 Q. Was it at that time that you also had contact with the Office of
18 the Prosecutor?
19 A. Yes. We stopped at The Hague on our way to Kosovo, and we had a
20 meeting with the Office of the Prosecutor.
21 Q. What was the nature of the meeting and the conversations that you
22 had with representatives of the office?
23 A. We first asked them -- asked the Office of the Prosecutor whether
24 they would be interested in the kind of information that we were
25 collecting. They answered in the affirmative. They also told us that we
1 would not be acting as agents of the Tribunal. They also indicated some
2 of the kinds of things that would be useful for their work, things that we
3 might not have thought of on our own. For example, the importance of
4 obtaining recent pre-destruction photos, if possible, of damaged sites.
5 They also indicated that in the event we should encounter
6 eyewitnesses to the destruction, we were to take basic information and
7 names and contact but that we were not to conduct extended witness
8 interviews, that the Tribunal would take care of that. Our main task was
9 to document the damage to the architecture.
10 Q. Thank you. In total, how long it took to develop your project and
11 how many times, how many trips did you make to Kosovo?
12 A. The project took approximately two years to complete, in the
13 course of which we made three trips to Kosovo of roughly three weeks
14 each. Our first trip was in October of 1999, and there were follow-up
15 trips in October of 2000 and March of 2001. The survey was finished in
16 the summer of 2001.
17 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, I'm going to ask you to briefly describe first the
18 methodology used and the sources used in your report, and second, I will
19 ask you to explain the categories used to assess the damage and
20 destruction recorded. So first, the methodology and the sources.
21 A. As I indicated, our first step was to do research, before heading
22 into the field, to see what documentation existed of the pre-war condition
23 of these buildings. We took this along to Kosovo, and as we visited each
24 site, there would be a series of steps that we would then take.
25 The first step would be to go to a location and identify and
1 verify the site. This was done by interviewing locals but also by
2 comparing our pre-war documentation. In the case of a building that was
3 totally destroyed, if we had plans, you could trace the foundations. If
4 one had pre-war photographs, surrounding buildings would still offer
5 identification of the site.
6 Once we had done this, we would then take several photographs to
7 document the site, and Mr. Herscher and I would consult with each other
8 and agree on the description and categorical assessment of the damage.
9 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, before we go to the categories, I think that in
10 Appendix 2 of your report, pages 17 to 22, apart from the field assessment
11 made by you and Mr. Herscher that you have just described, there is also a
12 description, that of other sources, of various other sources that you used
13 for the sites that you have not visited. So can you just explain that for
14 the Court?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If you -- if you need to use the report, with the assistance of
17 the usher, maybe we can put the report on the --
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness -- let the witness have his
20 THE WITNESS: I have a copy.
21 JUDGE MAY: Put it on the ELMO, then, if that's the idea. Have we
22 got a spare copy so that the witness can have one? One for the ELMO.
23 That's right. And then the witness can have his.
24 THE WITNESS: So in order of presentation, the first one was our
25 field investigations which I have described.
1 MS. ROMANO:
2 Q. And how many -- how many sites did you and Mr. Herscher visit in
4 A. We visited approximately 144 sites in person. The second largest
5 group of sites are those documented by the International Management Group,
6 an intergovernmental organisation which was commissioned by the European
7 Union to conduct an assessment of damage to buildings and infrastructure
8 in Kosovo. Their work was completed in the spring of 2000, and we were
9 able to obtain a copy of their database during our second visit to Kosovo.
10 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, you can go very briefly on the sources. Just
11 mention the name and a brief, a short, short explanation.
12 A. The other two -- the other three main sources were the three
13 religious communities; the Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate, with which we
14 exchanged documentation - they also have published a great deal of their
15 documentation - the Roman Catholic Diocese, we had interviews with clergy;
16 and the Islamic community, which had a very large archive of photographs
17 collected by Professor Sabri Bajgora, who is the assistant mufti of
18 Kosovo. We also had information from the Institute for the Protection of
19 Monuments of Kosovo, the local institute in Djakovica, UNMIK's Department
20 of Urban Planning in Pec, and a number of private individuals who are
21 named in that appendix.
22 Finally, we also took account of media accounts. We never
23 included any sites on the sole authority of media accounts, but where
24 first-hand media reports were available, we included them and identified
25 them as such.
1 As Your Honours will note, in many cases these sources were
2 cross-corroborated with each other, and in all cases, we included only
3 sites for which photographic documentation was available.
4 Q. Thank you. So we passed through the methodology and the sources.
5 Can you right now please walk us through the categories of assessment of
6 damages --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- established.
9 A. Initially we had in mind using UNHCR's categories. However, we
10 found that they were designed for housing and not necessarily appropriate
11 for historical monuments, especially since we were doing the survey in
12 part with establishing the feasibility of reconstruction in mind.
13 Category 1 is self-explanatory. It's "undamaged buildings."
14 "Lightly damaged" is a rather large category, and we were
15 extremely conservative in assigning it in the sense that it covers any
16 damage that does not impair the main structure of the building. This
17 means that it includes everything from vandalism and small fires set in
18 the building to shell holes in the wall to even a minaret or a steeple
19 blown up but the main structure remaining intact. Part of the roof could
20 be smashed, but if the roof as a whole was still okay and the perimeter
21 walls were standing, we called it lightly damaged.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 A. "Heavily damaged" is any structure that has suffered significant
24 structural damage to its main elements. Typically, it would be a building
25 that was completely burnt out, often with roof collapsed, major blast
1 damage, damage to perimeter walls.
2 "Almost destroyed" is the next-to-last category. This would be a
3 building which was missing some of its principal parts, like one or more
4 of the perimeter walls, which would require complete reconstruction but
5 which still had some elements standing.
6 "Completely destroyed" is again self-explanatory. It's a
7 building which had no reusable parts left standing above ground.
8 Q. Thank you. So as a result of your research, you and Mr. Herscher
9 prepared this joint report entitled "The Destruction of Cultural Heritage
10 in Kosovo." And as I explained to the Court before, the report is
11 comprised by a summary of the findings and a database containing all the
12 sites, and with specific and detailed information. It also contains the
14 I would ask you, Mr. Riedlmayer, by using the report that is on
15 the ELMO, if you can briefly walk us through the findings for the
16 destruction of the religious cultural sites: Islamic, Roman Catholic, and
17 Serbian Orthodox. It's pages 7 and 10 of the report.
18 A. Just a second. Okay. I've already outlined what constitutes the
19 religious heritage, so I will skip that part. In the case of Islamic
20 architectural heritage, the primary category of buildings that suffered
21 damage was mosques. We are fortunate that we have a published figure for
22 the number of mosques in Kosovo on the eve of the war, and as of 1993,
23 according to the Islamic community, there were 607 mosques in Kosovo. Our
24 documentation showed that more than one-third of these were either
25 destroyed or damaged, and the evidence suggests that this happened in
2 Q. What was the evidence that you had that it happened in 1998/1999?
3 A. There are three kinds of factors that would indicate this. One is
4 the nature of the damage. If the damage is fire, you can often tell if
5 it's recent from things like smell. If the building is burnt out, by the
6 growth of vegetation or otherwise inside. Blast damage certainly
7 indicates that this occurred during some kind of conflict. And vandalism
8 indicates that it was not an accidental event.
9 The second kind of indication is the statements of eyewitnesses,
10 which usually corroborated the evidence of the material evidence.
11 Thirdly, the existence of recent pre-war photographs of the
12 buildings in their undamaged condition suggests that the destruction was
13 in the last few years. Many of our pre-destruction photos come from 1997,
14 so it makes very clear that the destruction happened subsequent to that.
15 Q. In your report, you give us an approximate figure how many mosques
16 were damaged in 1998, 1999. Can you give us this figure?
17 A. Yes. Roughly 225.
18 Q. The next one would be the Roman Catholic.
19 A. Okay. There was much less information available concerning Roman
20 Catholic sites, mainly because, first of all, there were fewer of
21 them - the Roman Catholic community is the smallest of the three
22 communities in Kosovo - but also because there appeared to be a great deal
23 less damage to Catholic sites. In many places where housing and Islamic
24 monuments had been destroyed in large proportion, Catholic monuments
25 remained intact.
1 Q. And the Serbian Orthodox?
2 A. Kosovo is known as the site of many of the most important
3 monuments of the Serbian Orthodox Church, and these are probably the
4 best-published monuments of any of the communities in Kosovo, both in
5 terms of pre-war documentation and also in terms of documentation of
6 damage to the monuments. What we tried to do is visit as many of these as
7 possible, concentrating our efforts on monuments that were not well
8 documented already by sources such as the Serbian Orthodox Church.
9 Subsequent to our first visit, we engaged in an exchange of photos
10 and other information with the eparchy of Raske and Prizren. Our findings
11 were, first of all, that the Serbian Orthodox monuments that were alleged
12 to have been destroyed or damaged by NATO, we found no sign of damage that
13 could be attributed to air attacks. We did, however, find that a great
14 many of these monuments, as many as 80 or more, had been damaged after the
15 war, presumably in attacks by returning Albanians.
16 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, in your research you also came across several
17 sites claimed by Yugoslav authorities to have either been destroyed or
18 serious damage by the NATO airstrikes, and among them some of the Orthodox
19 churches. In arriving at The Hague, you brought us a photo that I have
20 here with me of the Orthodox church in Dreznic [phoen] -- Dreznic?
21 A. Drsnik.
22 Q. Drsnik. That was claimed to be bombed by NATO, and I have copies
23 of the photos. Can you give us an explanation of what that constitutes?
24 There are two photos. I just have one colour copy, and the others are,
25 unfortunately, black and white for the moment.
1 A. This is for the ELMO.
2 THE REGISTRAR: The curriculum vitae will be numbered Prosecution
3 Exhibit 89, and the first picture, Prosecution Exhibit 90.
4 A. We made a point of taking all allegations seriously, and that is
5 why we visited almost all of the sites for which damage was claimed by
6 various Yugoslav official bodies during the war. This is a church, the
7 church of St. Paraskeva, in the village of Drsnik, municipality of Klina.
8 According to the Institute for Protection of Monuments of the Republic of
9 Serbia and the Ministry of Information, during the war, according to them,
10 in April of 1999, this church suffered serious damage from NATO bombs. We
11 went to the village and found the church with its roof intact, its modern
12 metal belfry intact. However, clearly a fire had been set inside the
13 building. You can see the smudge marks above the door and the initials
14 "UCK," KLA, scrawled into the soot.
15 Could I have the next picture, please. In the interior of the
16 church, a fire had been set, causing damage to mural paintings on the
17 walls, and in addition, someone had gone there and defaced the murals,
18 again with the initials "UCK," with Xs across the faces of the saints and
20 So we included this in our database, but it's very clear that the
21 damage was not done by bombs but by human beings, from the ground up.
22 According to the Serbian Orthodox Church and news reports, the Serb
23 inhabitants of the village left in the second half of June, so it stands
24 to reason that the damage occurred subsequent to that.
25 MS. ROMANO:
1 Q. That Serbian Orthodox Church is mentioned -- is the one mentioned
2 in your report on page 9; is it correct?
3 A. Let me see.
4 Q. At the bottom of page 9.
5 A. Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: The last photograph will be numbered Prosecution
7 Exhibit 91.
8 MS. ROMANO:
9 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, also to illustrate the damage to religious sites,
10 after arriving here in The Hague, you produced this chart with one of our
11 investigators, and that will be helpful to illustrate the damage of all
12 three religious sites. If you can give us a brief explanation of the
14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 92.
15 A. This is a breakdown by the number of buildings in each category.
16 The red columns represent Roman Catholic sites; the yellow columns,
17 Serbian Orthodox sites; and the blue columns, Islamic sites. As you can
18 see, the largest number of damaged sites is definitely Islamic. The
19 "undamaged" columns do not represent by any means the total corpus; we
20 included undamaged buildings only if there had been allegations or if we
21 happened to cross them. But the "damaged" categories are fairly
22 representative of the facts on the ground.
23 MS. ROMANO:
24 Q. Thank you. As I mentioned before, in your database it contains
25 hundreds of sites.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But we have just used the ones that are alleged -- that were
3 mentioned and listed in the indictment. They are organised in the order
4 of the indictment. Can you please walk us through at least two of the
5 sites, the one that you have visited in person and the one that you rely
6 on some other information, and show the Court where can we find the
7 information: the category of the damage, who did it, and the information.
8 So if we can get the report and maybe go for the first site, that is,
9 Celine. It's not numbered, but maybe --
10 A. It's right after the text.
11 Q. -- the number can be helpful. It's K0209346.
12 A. All right. What you see there -- if you could try to get the
13 whole page in.
14 Okay. What you see is a sample page from our database. It's a
15 very simple entry and very typical of the large number of entries where we
16 had very basic kind of information. First all, notice at the bottom the
17 surveyors. In this case, the information comes from -- is corroborated by
18 two third-party sources, the IMG database and Professor Sabri Bajgora of
19 the Islamic community.
20 The second thing, a photograph. We included, as you were told, no
21 information unless we had corroborating photographs. This is an example
22 of a completely destroyed building. As you see, there is very little left
23 of the original structure.
24 The type of information we recorded were the names, if known, the
25 village, the date of construction, the period, whether it had officially
1 protected status, type, setting, building condition and the state of
2 adjacent buildings. You can see adjacent buildings with old roof tiles,
3 so it makes it more likely this structure was singled out rather than hit
4 along with other types.
5 Q. Maybe you can use the blown-up photo.
6 A. Yes. If you go to the next page there.
7 Q. The second -- the next page.
8 A. Yes. You can see here the -- this, which is either a fragment of
9 an arch or maybe the minaret's broken, it's hard to tell. But you can
10 tell this building next to it has old roof tiles, clearly not a recent
11 repair. So this was an example of the kind of site where we were working
12 with second hand information.
13 For examples of sites that we visited first hand, I would suggest
14 that you go to K029370.
15 Q. That's Djakovica.
16 A. That's the Djakovica market. This was under official legal
17 protection. You can see that it had a number of different names it was
18 known by. You can see that the damage report is quite detailed, and we
19 have photos from a variety of sources. One example here of a number of
20 photos we have of the bazaar taken right before the war, one taken during
21 the destruction, by a resident of Gjakove, and on the next page two
22 further photos, one pre-war photo and one after.
23 This is also an example of an informant's statement. Again we
24 merely summarised what we heard, and when we had the opportunity, we
25 obtained contact information.
1 The next page. The next page lists some of our background
2 research under "Bibliography" under pre-war photos as well as media
4 I'm now turning to two photos past. Yes, this one. This is a
5 photo that we took after the war. You can see the burnt-out shops of the
6 bazaar with the walls in between the burnt-out shops still standing. In
7 the background is the Hadum Mosque. You can see the top of the minaret's
8 been shot off, and there's a hole in the minaret halfway down, from impact
9 of some kind of projectile.
10 The next page. The next page is our entry for the Hadum Mosque
11 itself. It's a rather elaborate complex and seems to have been damaged in
12 more than one phase. The front part of the mosque has been burnt, as was
13 the library next to it. And then again, according to what we found and
14 the statements of eyewitnesses, the top of the minaret, when it was shot
15 off, landed on the library and collapsed the rear wall.
16 Go to the next page. You will see a close-up of the burnt front
17 of the mosque, the charred base of the minaret, and the burnt-out facade
18 of the library, as well as a pre-war photo that shows the extended portico
19 that was burnt down.
20 Then if you go two pages further, you can see the remains of the
21 burnt portico. Again it's clear that this is fire-charred remains. The
22 portico extension was built in the eighteenth century, made largely of
24 And finally, there's an entry for the mosque library which we
25 covered not only as a building but as a cultural institution, and that was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 first burnt, and then if you look at the next photo, you can see the
2 collapsed rear wall. We dug around in the rubble and found the remains of
3 the top of the minaret, including most of the fragments of the minaret's
4 carved balcony. So it's very clear that what collapsed the rear here was
5 the toppling of the upper portion of the minaret.
6 So that gives you an idea of the type of documentation we have.
7 Q. And the same type of -- the format is all over the database? You
8 can find the same type of information all --
9 A. Right.
10 Q. -- with all the sites?
11 A. Yes, whether it's mosques, churches, or civil sites.
12 Q. And all the sites listed in the indictment, they have been object
13 of assessment --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- by you and Mr. Herscher?
16 A. Or by third-party sources such as the IMG database and/the Islamic
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer.
19 MS. ROMANO: I don't have further questions.
20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the exhibit be brought back.
21 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the accused.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] You travelled to Kosovo via The Hague, did you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you expressed the wish here to work for the purposes of the
3 Tribunal; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And they told you that you wouldn't be working as their agent.
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. But that they are very interested in your activity.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does that mean that they would like to use your activity as the
10 result of the work of an objective analysis which they have no influence
12 A. I cannot speak of their intentions, but they gave us no directions
13 as to what our findings should be.
14 Q. Did they give you any instructions at all?
15 A. The kind I outlined, namely what would be -- make useful evidence;
16 photographs. They also told us not to depose witnesses but merely to take
17 basic information and contact information. Basically, they told us to
18 record the facts as we find them, which was also our intention.
19 Q. But a moment ago you said that you looked into all the places that
20 were mentioned in the indictment.
21 A. We -- the -- if you look at the indictment, the places which are
22 mentioned and which are represented by photographs here are represented in
23 the amended indictment, which was produced after we had supplied the
24 Tribunal with our report.
25 Q. But that report of yours coincides with the indictment. You
1 concluded your report in 2001, as you said.
2 A. Yes. And we submitted it to the Tribunal in the summer of 2001.
3 The amended indictment, as far as I know, was produced in October of
5 Q. As far as I know, the indictment was published in May 1999, when
6 the war was still ongoing.
7 JUDGE MAY: What is the date of the amended indictment? We'll be
9 THE WITNESS: 29 October.
10 JUDGE MAY: October '99 [sic]. So what you're saying,
11 Mr. Riedlmayer, is that you produced your report, then there was the
12 amended indictment. It's right that what is in your report is reflected
13 in that amended indictment.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
15 JUDGE MAY: But not in the original.
16 THE WITNESS: Not in the original. The original mentions cultural
17 heritage in generic terms but mentions no specific sites.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Well, all right, but I think that this relationship between your
20 work and the indictment has been established.
21 But you said, before giving us that explanation, that when you
22 went to Kosovo via The Hague, that you raised the question of how much
23 your work will be beneficial and useful to the Tribunal and its needs.
24 A. We would have gone to Kosovo regardless but we approached the
25 Tribunal because we felt that the kind of work that we were doing might
1 assist them in their work. It does not reflect in any way as to the
2 conclusions of the report.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who paid you for the -- were you paid for this
5 THE WITNESS: We were not paid for the work. Our expenses were
6 paid by the grant.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: From the foundation.
8 THE WITNESS: From the foundation, yes.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Did you give thought to the findings for the requirements of the
11 Tribunal and the fact as to whether the -- this Tribunal was trying those
12 who committed the bombing and destroyed cultural monuments in Kosovo
13 during the NATO airstrike, the NATO aggression?
14 JUDGE MAY: Do you understand the question or not?
15 THE WITNESS: I think I do. If I understand the question
16 correctly, I must say I pointed out that we took all allegations
17 seriously, including the ones made about NATO damage to cultural heritage
18 sites in Kosovo, and we took great care to investigate them. And if we
19 had found that NATO had damaged these sites, we would have reported
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. But in your oral presentation now, it seems to spring into the
23 first plan or -- like in the newspapers, the front line, what you are
24 asserting, that is to say, that NATO did not damage Serb churches, Serbian
25 churches. Is that your finding and conclusion?
1 A. That was our finding, yes.
2 Q. So it is your finding that NATO did not damage Serbian churches.
3 How were the Serbian churches damaged then?
4 A. The damage to Serbian churches that we found can be attributed to
5 attacks after the war by Kosovar Albanians. This is not only our
6 findings, but it is also the official finding of the Serbian Orthodox
7 Diocese of Raska in Prizren. If you look at their documentation in
8 Raspeto [phoen] Kosovo, Krusevat [phoen] Kosovo, it makes it quite clear
9 that these attacks occurred after the end of the war.
10 Q. Let's leave to one side for the time being the fact that I
11 completely challenge the fact that NATO did not damage with its bombs the
12 Serb cultural monuments, but the one you mentioned just now -- what you
13 said just now is something that I would like to ask you.
14 Whose troops throughout that time in Kosovo and Metohija, during
15 the time that you said the Kosovars -- the Albanians destroyed the
16 churches, whose troops were they?
17 A. Whose troops were what?
18 Q. I'm sorry. Whose troops were in Kosovo at the time? The NATO
19 troops, were they in Kosovo and Metohija throughout the time that you
20 consider the churches were destroyed in?
21 A. KFOR was there, which includes, of course, not only NATO but
22 Russian and other forces.
23 Q. Well, you just mentioned this publication by the Serbian Church,
24 which I see Mr. Wladimiroff holding in his hands just now. And they have
25 flags, the flags of countries showing whose troops are responsible for the
1 security of the territory in which those churches were destroyed. I
2 didn't see any Russian ones, but I did see American, Italian, French,
3 German flags, et cetera. Now, are those states responsible for the
4 destruction of the cultural monuments in areas protected by their troops?
5 JUDGE MAY: That's not for the witness to say. He's here giving
6 evidence about the damage, not about the responsibility or otherwise of
7 KFOR, which is a different issue.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's a different issue, I don't
9 think I can agree that that is not relevant, because Mr. Riedlmayer in his
10 report speaks about the causes and ways in which the cultural monuments
11 were destroyed and damaged.
12 JUDGE MAY: You can ask him if he found out while he was in Kosovo
13 who was responsible for the security of the various churches and if he
14 knows anything about how they came to be destroyed, despite that
16 Now, can you help us to that, Mr. Riedlmayer?
17 THE WITNESS: Only to a degree. Our primary task was to assess
18 the condition of the buildings rather than the security atmosphere. We
19 did find that most Serbian Orthodox churches that we came across, such as
20 the Pec Patriarchate or the churches in Prizren, and numerous churches in
21 various areas such as in south-eastern Kosovo, in the Pomoravia [phoen],
22 all had heavy NATO guard in front of them. On the other hand, a number of
23 ruined churches in abandoned villages had no guards on them, and we
24 brought up this issue in our conversation with UNMIK officials in Pristina
25 and urged them to provide protection for all churches, whether they are
1 intact or not and whether they are world-class sites or village sites.
2 But that was the extent of our involvement.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You, therefore, in preparing your work, had in mind the
5 requirements of the Tribunal's indictment, on the one hand; and on the
6 other, did you have any instructions? Did you receive any instructions by
7 the financiers of your project? And you said that they were the -- it was
8 the Centre for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard, I believe, and the
9 Packard Centre. And so was it Packard, Harvard, and the Tribunal?
10 A. We received instructions from none of these as to what we should
11 look at. We did not perform the study in order to support any particular
12 indictment. We hoped that the results of our investigations would help
13 bring to justice whoever targeted cultural and religious heritage in
14 Kosovo. As far as our sponsors and funders are concerned, they supported
15 us, but they gave us no instructions whatever.
16 Q. And do you expect, in view of the fact that your report was
17 financed and carried out, do you expect the subjects, that is to say, the
18 countries -- or rather, the country that led the NATO aggression,
19 including you too, can be accepted as being objective?
20 JUDGE MAY: That's not for the witness. You can ask him if -- you
21 can ask him this:
22 What's suggested is that your evidence is not objective,
23 Mr. Riedlmayer. It was, I guess, what's been alleged. Now, can you deal
24 with that?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Just deal with it.
2 THE WITNESS: I am an American national. However, if we had found
3 evidence that NATO had destroyed heritage, we would have reported it all
4 the same. We were not working for the government. Our conclusions are
5 entirely our own and our own responsibility.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did you use, in the course of your investigations and research,
8 facts and figures and information by NATO but also by the Yugoslav
9 authorities, Yugoslav state institutions, as to the dates and locations of
10 the NATO airstrikes?
11 A. Absolutely. We took all available information into account.
12 Q. So you did have in mind the NATO information and the locations by
13 NATO and the Yugoslav organs as to the dates and locations of the NATO
14 airstrikes; is that correct? You had these?
15 A. We had the locations that were cited. The allegations primarily
16 came from the Yugoslav sources, and so those had a heavier weight in our
17 choice of sites. What NATO statements and photographs were published were
18 largely in reaction to Yugoslav allegations.
19 Q. Very well. And do you know the percentage and share, as you
20 conducted research and investigation, what the share and percentage was of
21 Christian and how much of the Ottoman cultural heritage? What was the
22 ratio in Kosovo and Metohija? Let me make myself clearer. I'm not
23 talking about the absolute number of all churches and so on, but what
24 comes under the term of "cultural heritage," Christian and Ottoman, in
25 Kosovo and Metohija.
1 A. Okay. As our report makes clear, it is very hard to come up with
2 statistics. Serbian sources generally speak of a thousand or more
3 Orthodox sites, but in fact many of these are archeological sites rather
4 than standing buildings. And by the parameters of our survey, we
5 concluded archeological sites. They're not as vulnerable to damage and
6 they tend to be harder to document in terms of pre-war photographs. So we
7 did not visit archeological sites, whether Stone Age or medieval.
8 In terms of actual standing monuments, we went by a publication of
9 the Institute for the Protection of Monuments of the Republic of Serbia,
10 published in the spring of 1999, which lists approximately 210 Orthodox
11 sites that were under protection. However, out of those, approximately 40
12 were twentieth-century buildings. So it's -- that's a rough number.
13 In terms of the Ottoman heritage, it's also very complicated. The
14 construction during the Ottoman period included some Christian monuments.
15 For example, the Pec Patriarchate was enlarged several times under Ottoman
16 rule. Out of the -- I assume you mean mosques, and if you mean mosques,
17 out of the 600-odd mosques, roughly half or more were of the Ottoman
18 period. There was very little construction after the fall of the Ottoman
19 rule in Kosovo, of mosques, until the 1980s, when there was an increase of
20 construction of houses of worship, both Christian and Muslim.
21 Q. And did you observe and take note of the fact that in that
22 respect, until the war began and the destruction began, there was no
23 discrimination with respect to the construction both of Christian and
24 Muslim religious buildings in Kosovo? Do you have any information about
1 A. That wasn't part of our survey. We did observe the fact that as
2 opposed to 210, approximately, Orthodox sites in Kosovo, only about 15 to
3 20 mosques were under official legal protection. So what discrimination
4 there was was certainly in terms of the attention paid to these monuments
5 by the official organs.
6 Q. In the form of attention or in the form of the actual state of
7 affairs with respect to the buildings that make up the cultural heritage
8 and their state?
9 A. What I mean is in terms of the amount of state monies for
10 restoration and conservation, of which the majority went to officially
11 listed sites, and since more of the officially listed sites were Orthodox,
12 more of the money was spent on the Orthodox sites. Also in terms of the
13 actual protection, in legal terms, a number of the listed monuments that
14 were mosques had been badly altered by unauthorised repairs, it seemed, in
15 recent decades, without apparently being stopped by the authorities, even
16 though these were listed monuments. But that wasn't the principal focus
17 of our study.
18 Q. Yes, but do you know that in professional assessments, which I
19 assume are objective because they do not only refer to Yugoslav
20 institutions, that the share of Christian in relation to Ottoman cultural
21 heritage in Kosovo and Metohija is somewhere between 75:25 -- the ratio is
22 75:25, that that is roughly the ratio? Are you aware of that ratio?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And apart from this latest publication, from which you quoted a
25 moment ago and said that you used the 1999 institute for the Serbian
1 cultural heritage, did you use any other Serbian publications, historical
2 documents, books related to the history of art, and so on and so forth,
3 which relate to the buildings that you investigated, the sites you
5 A. Yes, sir. If you will look at a number of these entries, which
6 have extensive bibliographies, you will see that we covered all the
7 available literature. We looked at Yugoslav art historical journals, the
8 annuals of the Institute for the Protection of Monuments of Kosovo, of
9 Serbia, international publications. There's a recent monograph by Gojko
10 Subotic which covers Serbian heritage in Kosovo encyclopedically. We
11 invested a lot of preparation before ever going to Kosovo, and we
12 continued to track publications that appeared after our initial field
13 work, to the extent that we were able.
14 Q. And of these consultations and the Institute for the Protection of
15 Cultural Monuments in Pristina and Prizren, did you include those too?
16 A. Yes, we did.
17 Q. Do you consider that it would be logical if an international
18 expert team would have been set up to look into the state of affairs and
19 to investigate and research the state of cultural and historical monuments
20 in Kosovo which would be able to avoid a partial approach, or an approach
21 under the shadows of this Tribunal, or the financing of it from countries
22 which led the aggression against Yugoslavia? Did you ever give thought to
23 that? Would that be of value? Would that have been beneficial, in view
24 of the fact that one of the most interesting places on the continent of
25 Europe was worthy of the attentions of an objective international expert
1 team of professionals instead of the kind of approach that we have here?
2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, that seems to be making the same point
3 again, that this witness's work is not objective, and he's answered that.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Then I have a specific,
5 concrete question.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Do you know about the letter from Slobodan Curcic, a respected
8 art historian and professor, to your colleagues from Princeton, for
9 example, which was published in the USA ECOMOS May/June 2000, and it
10 assessed your report as one-sided because they said that it referred for
11 the most part to Islamic cultural monuments?
12 A. I'm aware of it, yes. What Mr. Milosevic seems to be referring to
13 was the publication of a preliminary version of our report in the
14 newsletter of the US committee for ECOMOS, the International Council on
15 Monuments and Sites. In the subsequent issue, Professor Curcic wrote a
16 letter to the editor in which he misconstrued our report quite
17 dramatically, claimed that we had not covered any Serbian Orthodox sites,
18 and made some allegations about our findings. I'm aware of it. I think
19 it's completely mistaken on Professor Curcic's part.
20 Q. All right. Very well. You differ there, and that is allowed. A
21 difference of opinion is allowed.
22 Have you heard of a pamphlet, a pamphlet this time, by the Islamic
23 religious community in Kosovo, under the title of, "Serbian Barbarism
24 Against Islamic Monuments in Kosovo," February 1988, published in Pristina
25 in the year 2000? Did you happen to have this pamphlet in your hands?
1 A. I've seen the book, yes.
2 Q. And the photographs, some of the photographs, or perhaps some of
3 the findings from that pamphlet, which was compiled by Sabri Bajgora, whom
4 you mentioned otherwise, did you take them over from that pamphlet of his?
5 A. We did not. We examined the photographs that the Islamic
6 community had collected in October of 1999 and took originals of the
7 photographs at that time. Subsequently, when the Islamic community
8 published this actually small book, they used some of the same
10 Q. And do you know who Sabri Bajgora is?
11 A. Yes. He is the assistant mufti, second in the hierarchy of the
12 Islamic religious community in Kosovo, and he's professor at the Faculty
13 of Islamic Studies in Pristina.
14 Q. So he specialises in Islamic faith.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And Sabri Bajgora, whom you consider to be a relevant source, is
17 he scientifically qualified to assess the condition of cultural heritage
18 in Kosovo? Do you consider him to be a qualified expert to assess the
19 state of cultural heritage in Kosovo?
20 A. No. He's not a conservation professional, and we did not ask for
21 his opinion on things. We simply asked him for photographs, concerning
22 which we made our own conclusions.
23 JUDGE MAY: It is now in fact 3.00. It's time to adjourn for a
24 short period. We'll adjourn for quarter of an hour.
25 Mr. Riedlmayer, will you remember in this and any other
1 adjournment not to speak to anybody about your evidence, including members
2 of the Prosecution team, until it's over.
3 Yes. 3.15.
4 --- Recess taken at 3.00 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 3.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. In the period between 1960 and 1981, the Albanian separatists
9 plundered and destroyed the monasteries of Dejavici [phoen], Decani. And
10 on the 16th of May, 1981, they attacked the Pec Patriarchate and set fire
11 to it, and the monastery konak was burnt down, containing vast artistic
12 works of great value. Are you aware of that?
13 A. That period was not part of our study, but yes, I've heard reports
14 of that. I've also read that police at the time claimed that it -- the
15 fire at the konak was accidental. But as I say, I am not in a position to
16 speak about any of that from first hand information.
17 Q. And do you know, since I assume your report covers that period,
18 that the terrorist KLA, on the 22nd of July, 1998, broke into the
19 monastery of St. Kosme and Damjan near Orahovac and that they seriously
20 damaged the walls of the monastery konak? Did you omit to mention that,
21 or do you have any information about it as part of your research project?
22 A. I assume what you're referring to is the monastery at Zociste
23 south of Orahovac. Yes, it is included in our database. Not only was the
24 konak damaged, but subsequently the church next to the monastery was
25 destroyed with explosives. My understanding is that it is now being
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. And do you know that in the NATO airstrike on the 22nd of March,
3 1999 - that was the fifth day of the war - a rocket hit and destroyed the
4 museum building of the Prizren League, which can be shown on this
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it be please shown to the
8 We can see that it was hit from above. This is the building of
9 the Prizren League, so please show the witness both sides.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. As you see it, it could not have been destroyed from the ground,
12 as you are claiming.
13 A. This is a site that we went to document, and we have numerous
14 photographs from before and, of course, the condition in 1989 when it was
15 nothing but a levelled site. However, I would like to point out a number
16 of things in this particular case.
17 What caused us to conclude that this was destroyed from the ground
18 up was, first of all, if you look on either side here, the former Prizren
19 League Museum was an early nineteenth century small, two-storey building
20 surrounded on two sides by other historic buildings. The buildings here
21 to the left and behind it are also part of the museum, and then the other
22 buildings on this side.
23 What is particularly striking even about this photograph is that
24 these buildings which are at a distance of, at most, five to ten metres
25 from the site are completely undamaged, which speaks against any high
2 Secondly, the construction of the Prizren League Museum is what is
3 known in the region as carpic [phoen]. It's a mud-brick building. It's
4 wooden beams, and the interstices are filled with unfired brick.
5 Typically, that kind of building cannot withstand either fire or
6 explosives very well. It just falls apart.
7 If this building had been hit by something with a heavy explosive
8 charge, you wouldn't see this much of it remaining. What I can see here
9 is very typical of a number of other buildings we saw elsewhere in Kosovo
10 which were clearly burned down, often in an even tighter urban context,
11 with undamaged buildings less than two metres away.
12 So I would rather doubt that this was hit. It's also a matter of
13 logic. Why this building, the one monument in Prizren that is a monument
14 to the Albanian national movement, would be the one monument in Prizren
15 that was supposedly hit by a NATO airstrike as an intentional kind of
16 act. It makes very little sense.
17 Could you show the other side, please. You can see here charred
18 beams sticking up from the top and the ground storey still standing. I
19 have numerous pre-destruction photos of the building. You can see there
20 wasn't really that much more to it.
21 Finally, of course there were also a number of people we
22 interviewed who claimed to have seen the destruction which they say was
23 done by Serbian police firing hand-held incendiary devices.
24 Finally, between the Prizren League Museum and the buildings
25 immediately to the back of it were a series of life-sized statues of the
1 founders of the League of Prizren. Those statues were subsequently, after
2 the war, fished out of the river. Again that speaks to the probability
3 that the destruction was malicious and from the ground up rather than that
4 the statues were lifted up and taken into the river by some airstrike.
5 Q. Let us look at the other photograph, please.
6 A. The other side?
7 Q. Yes, yes. No the other side, please. As you can see, it was hit
8 from above, and it could not have been hit by any hand-held rocket
9 launcher. And on the 28th of March, 1999, it was hit directly by a rocket
10 from a plane.
11 Is convincing proof what Albanian witnesses will tell you? Is
12 your logic convincing? Why would NATO hit a cultural monument of the
13 Albanians, if I ask you why did NATO strike a column of Albanian refugees
14 where dozens of men, women, and children were killed? Why would NATO
15 strike again a second column of Albanian refugees where again dozens of
16 Albanians, men, women, and children, were killed? Why would NATO strike a
17 bus --
18 JUDGE MAY: This is a speech.
19 Q. -- on the line from Kosovo to Pec?
20 JUDGE MAY: Have you got a question? The witness says -- the
21 witness says -- just a moment. Just a moment.
22 What the witness says are from his conclusions this building was
23 set fire to. Now, if you want to put something different to him, do, but
24 you've heard what his conclusions are.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. As you can see on this photograph - please put it on the ELMO --
2 A. It's there.
3 Q. -- there are no traces of fire there. It's clearly a photograph
4 of a house hit from the air.
5 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness -- let the witness answer that.
6 THE WITNESS: The upper storey, which no longer exists on this,
7 has three tall windows and a wood-timbered tile roof. What you see here
8 is collapsed roof timbers. What is sticking up looks charred, and there's
9 something that looks like smoke rising up from the building. That's all I
10 can tell from the picture.
11 When we went to Prizren, the site had been completely levelled,
12 and they were about to construct a replica of it.
13 What I can tell is that the buildings next to it, upon our visit,
14 were still in the same condition as you can see on this picture, with the
15 tile roofs and the old windows still intact, the paint flaking. Obviously
16 they had not been re-glazed. Any kind of explosion would at the very
17 least have shattered the windows, and you would have been able to see that
18 these are repaired windows. The distance is very small.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, NATO hit my house with three rockets. Twelve
21 metres from the house, not a single pane of a glass was broken, a building
22 twelve metres away from the same garden. Are you a ballistics expert?
23 A. I do not claim to be. I'm simply stating what I saw.
24 Q. Very well. We can move on, then.
25 Do you know that the area around the Pec Patriarchate, that was
1 built in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, was hit by NATO planes on a
2 number of occasions - on the 31st of March, the 1st of April, the 11th,
3 the 12th and the 17th of May, 1999 - even though it is a monument in the
4 first category, which UNESCO placed on the World Heritage list?
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's put to you that it was hit three times, the
6 Patriarchate. Would you deal with that, Mr. Riedlmayer.
7 A. Yes. We visited the Patriarchate, as did two independent
8 conservation experts who checked the buildings and murals and found no
9 sign of damage other than that from rising damp and long-term deferred
10 maintenance. The two conservation experts were Tody Cezar, who is
11 mentioned in our report, who was an independent consultant for UNMIK's
12 Department of Culture in December of 2000 and January 2001. More
13 recently, a team from the Italian Instituto Centrale Del Estero visited
14 both the Patriarchate at Pec and the monastery in Decani, and in a
15 published account in Giornali Del Arte, published last fall, they state
16 that there was no war damage to be seen at either site.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. I cannot interrupt you. I didn't say that it was hit. I said
19 that they bombed the area of the Pec Patriarchate on the 1st of March, the
20 1st of April, the 11th and 12th and 17th of May, 1999. And you said that
21 the information about bombing was provided to you both by NATO and the
22 Yugoslav authorities. So my question was: Did you know that the area of
23 the Pec Patriarchate was targeted five times in 1999, regardless of your
24 own findings?
25 Let me go on to my next question anyway. The area of the
1 Gracanica monastery --
2 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer.
3 It's suggested that the area was targeted, not the Patriarchate
4 itself, but the area. Can you help us with that?
5 THE WITNESS: No. All I can say is: Yes, I read the allegation,
6 which is why we looked at whether there was any damage to the building,
7 and the suggestion is that there was none.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Very well. And the area around the Gracanica monastery. You know
10 that that is one of the most beautiful buildings of world architecture.
11 It dates back to the fourteenth century and it is protected as a
12 world-class monument. That the area of the Gracanica monastery was bombed
13 by NATO on the 28th, the 3rd of March, the 10th of April, the 1st, 14th,
14 and 17th of May. The rockets fell close to the monastery. They didn't
15 hit the monastery itself, but they did cause damage to the facade of the
16 monastery and the fresco paintings. Did you establish that?
17 A. Again, I have no first-hand knowledge of the events during the
18 war. Obviously I wasn't there. As far as the monastery goes, again we
19 have the report of Ms. Tody Cezar, who visited the monastery and found
20 that the frescos were endangered by rising damp caused by groundwater and
21 by the failure of pointing, that is, mortar coming out from between the
22 bricks, which is a result of lack of maintenance over the years. As far
23 as any damage, we didn't see any, and the monks didn't tell us of any at
24 the time. I'm aware that there are allegations that such damage existed.
25 We didn't see it.
1 Q. You were not on the spot, and I understand that, but are you
2 familiar with the report by experts of the Republican Institute for the
3 Protection of Cultural Monuments of Serbia on the state of the fresco
4 paintings in Gracanica, published by the Society of Conservators in
5 Belgrade, 2000, by editor Marko Omcikus? Are you familiar with that
7 A. I'm familiar with the citation to the work. I was not able to get
8 a hold of a copy of that particular journal. However, the report was
9 summarised in an article by Professor Slobodan Curcic in the journal
10 British Byzantine Studies. In this, he repeats the assertion by the
11 conservators that the frescos had separated from the wall and were in
12 danger of collapse. This does not match with the assessment that we have
13 from the conservator Ms. Cezar. I don't claim to be an expert on mural
14 paintings myself, so all I can state is that we have two reports by
15 experts which seem to be at variance.
16 Q. You're mentioning the professor from Princeton?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you know that NATO planes directly targeted the memorial
19 complex Gazimestan? Let me remind you. It is a memorial complex of the
20 Kosovo battle from 1389 on the 13th of April, the 22nd, 23rd of May, and
21 the 1st of June, and that they damaged the Gazimestan memorial complex.
22 A. The Gazimestan complex, which is north of Pristina, in the
23 municipality of Obilic, was one of the sites we visited precisely because
24 of these allegations, which we were eager to check out. We looked very
25 carefully all around the monument and we observed only one kind of
1 damage. Surrounding the Gazimestan memorial are a number of concrete
2 tubes which hold spotlights. These concrete tubes had cast-iron
3 ornamentation put on it; a Serbian cross with the dates 1389 and 1989,
4 commemorating the 600th anniversary. Somebody had apparently come and
5 ripped off the cast-iron ornamentation. You could still see the dirt
6 shadow where the cast-iron had been affixed to the concrete. The memorial
7 itself looked completely undamaged, but we were told by a UN policeman on
8 the site that the interior staircase had been damaged by an explosive
9 placed inside after the war; however, there was no trace of it from the
10 outside. We were not allowed access to the inside. In short, what damage
11 we saw was not consistent with anything that could have been caused by an
12 aerial attack.
13 Q. Do you know that on the 3rd of April, 1999, in the NATO
14 airstrikes, St. Nicholas church was damaged in Djurakovac, built in the
15 fourteenth century?
16 A. Djurakovac is another one of the sites that Ms. Tody Cezar
17 visited. It looks in perfectly good condition. It has some nuns still
18 staying in there, and they mentioned no damage. It is under the guard of
19 Portuguese troops.
20 Q. The St. Nicholas church was damaged in Djurakovac, near Istok,
21 fourteenth-century church. Do you know that on the night between the 14th
22 and 15th of April, when attacking Klina, in the village of Drsnik, that
23 NATO damaged the Paraskeva church and destroyed the belfry of the church?
24 Of course, after Italian units of KFOR arrived, the Albanian terrorists,
25 in June 1999, demolished the church and seriously damaged, by explosives,
1 the same church, and they razed the village to the ground. Are you aware
2 of this damage caused by NATO airstrikes?
3 A. Drsnik was the example that I showed photos of. The belfry was
4 intact. It was a modern belfry of some age, with a metal structure. The
5 building itself had walls and roof completely intact. The interior had
6 had a fire set in it and the walls had been defaced, as I showed. Again,
7 this is not something that I would believe could have been caused by
9 Q. Are we talking about the same site, the church of St. Paraskeva?
10 A. That's right. It's the two pictures I showed at the conclusion of
11 my testimony.
12 Q. And are you aware that NATO air forces, on the 2nd, 4th, and 10th
13 of May, 1999, targeted and damaged St. Gavrilo at Draganac, one of the
14 most valuable monuments in Kosovo, near Gnjilane, and it is a protected
16 A. I'm not aware, no.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Will you please show this map.
18 It's a map of Kosovo, showing the churches, monasteries, and cultural
20 Q. Did you have in mind this distribution, and did you see anywhere
21 in the world more densely scattered monasteries, churches, and monuments
22 of cultural heritage as you see on this small area of Kosovo and Metohija?
23 A. I am familiar with the map. What the map does not show, which is
24 seen in other versions of this map, such as in Gojko Subotic's book, is
25 the fact that many of these sites are in fact archeological sites rather
1 than standing churches. Nevertheless, I do agree that Kosovo is indeed a
2 treasure house of architecture.
3 Q. Are you aware that on the 14th and 24th of May, NATO targeted and
4 damaged the church of St. Archangel in Nerodimlje near Urosevac - it dates
5 back to the fourteenth century - and Albanian terrorists, after the
6 arrival of American KFOR troops, demolished, burnt, and blew up this
7 church, as they did St. Nicholas, St. Stefan, and the Ascension of Mother
9 A. Yes. We have recorded all of these sites in our survey. If you
10 look at the map of destroyed Serbian Orthodox heritage in our survey, you
11 will find a cluster near Urosevac. It's hard to see on this
12 black-and-white copy, but you can see -- you can see right here a cluster
13 of dots, rather large ones, because they represent multiple buildings near
14 Urosevac. Those are the churches at Nerodimlje. However, based on
15 information we received from the Serbian Orthodox eparchy of Raske and
16 Prizren, we recorded these churches as having been destroyed after the
17 war, during the summer of 1999, by Albanians. Obviously, a place that had
18 been blown up leaves no evidence of what may have happened to it before,
19 but as far as I know, the Serbian Orthodox eparchy does not allege that
20 they were destroyed during the war but after the war. But our database
21 has pictures and assessments of each of these monuments.
22 Q. Did the Albanians perhaps raze it to the ground in order to
23 destroy traces of NATO airstrikes?
24 A. I cannot speculate.
25 Q. There are documents about that. Are you aware that on the 1st,
1 14th, and 16th of April, when the area of Kutlovac [phoen] was targeted,
2 the old square, that NATO damaged the Zvecan medieval fortress, a medieval
3 fortress near Kosovska Mitrovica from the twelfth century, a world-class
4 monument? The walls of the fortress were seriously damaged during those
5 airstrikes. Are you aware of that?
6 A. I paid a brief visit to Zvecan when I was in Mitrovica last
7 March. It is a ruined fortress, and I didn't see any evidence of recent
8 damage, but of course it's very hard to tell with an archeological ruin.
9 Q. Are you aware how many of these numerous mosques in Kosmat were
10 built in the last ten-year period? But not ten years. Let's take the
11 period from 1993 to 1999, that seven-year period prior to the war.
12 A. I did not do a statistical analysis in our database, but I could
13 very easily. I'm aware that a large number of churches and mosques were
14 built in Kosovo in the 1980s and 1990s, in part because with the easing of
15 church/state relations after the decline of Communism, it became legally
16 possible, and in part because it became financially possible.
17 In the case of mosques, a number of Kosovars who worked in Western
18 Europe sent home money. In the case of churches, there were a number of
19 well-to-do Kosovar Serbs who expended their money by building churches,
20 such as the Karic brothers. These new mosques and churches were often
21 targeted when -- and then they were destroyed, and -- but so were some of
22 the older ones.
23 Q. Do you know that in the period from 1987 until 1999, several
24 hundred mosques were built in Kosovo?
25 A. I have never seen that statistic. The number seems large to me.
1 Q. Very well. I assume that you do make a distinction between
2 monuments of culture and ordinary religious monuments built, shall we say,
3 in this last period from 1987 until 1999? I assume that you do make that
5 A. Yes, we do make the distinction. However, because of the fact
6 that a number of very recently built Orthodox sites were on the list of
7 protected monuments, such as, for example, the memorial church in
8 Djakovica which was completed right on the eve of the war in 1998/1999,
9 and because of the fact that religious monuments in general seem to be
10 singled out for destruction, we decided not to limit our survey to
11 officially listed monuments but to include all religious structures. The
12 distinction is always marked in our database where there's a separate line
13 about whether or not a building has listed status.
14 Q. Yes. But there must be a different attitude among ordinary
15 citizens and believers towards what is a historical monument and is part
16 of the cultural heritage and a newly built religious building. So in the
17 feelings of people, in the motives regarding protection and use, that the
18 people too make a distinction in that respect.
19 A. Maybe so. Nevertheless, if you look at the list of damaged or
20 destroyed Orthodox churches that were targeted after the war, many of them
21 date from recent times. So whether it's a mosque or a church, it means
22 something to people whether it's been around for hundreds of years or
23 whether it's recently built. It fulfils its cultural and religious
24 function. So we believed that we ought to cover these as well, but
25 obviously our initial starting point was the listed monuments.
1 Q. You're talking about monuments that are protected. How many
2 mosques in Kosovo were listed as monuments of culture?
3 A. It depends on who does the listing and at which period. It seemed
4 that there were several revisions of the official list for protection from
5 the 1980s onwards. So it's hard to pin down an exact figure. But between
6 15 and 30, according to various documents and statistics.
7 Q. So 30 on the outside. That would be the maximum.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you see how you reach the ratio that I referred to earlier on.
10 You said that in 1998 and 1999, 225 mosques were destroyed or damaged, and
11 it follows from what you have just said that these were -- that this was
12 not a significant percentage of them that were listed as protected
13 cultural monuments.
14 A. That does not follow at all. First of all, if you do an analysis,
15 the number of listed monuments that were hit was quite high. And in
16 addition to that, we note in our report that a number of culturally and
17 architecturally and historically significant mosques were not included in
18 the official listing. We assume on the basis value judgements and
19 political motives, because otherwise you could not explain the
21 For example, we noticed that in the region of Pec, the number of
22 mosques -- if you bear with me for a moment. I have here -- there were 36
23 mosques. Half of those mosques - so we're talking 18 of them - dated from
24 the fifteenth through the eighteenth centuries, and yet of those 18
25 mosques, I believe no more than two or three were on the officially
1 protected list.
2 So I think it's clear that the listed status of a monument does
3 not necessarily in this context indicate that it is historically or
4 architecturally significant. It simply reflects administrative and
5 political priorities which in my judgement have affected decisions on
6 whether to list or not to list the monument for protection.
7 Q. So it is your assessment that it was not professional criteria but
8 political criteria that we used when the experts of Serbia and Yugoslavia
9 and Kosovo and so on categorised monuments of culture?
10 A. I'm not impugning the professional qualifications of these
11 experts, but I do believe that political considerations played some part.
12 Q. Are you aware that numerous monuments of culture from the Ottoman
13 period, the Ottoman heritage - I'm not talking about the Christian ones
14 now - were renewed, repaired, and protected by the Institute for the
15 Protection of Monuments of Serbia, that is, by the Government of Serbia,
16 such as, for instance, the Sinan Pasha Mosque and the hamam in Prizren,
17 and that a series of such significant monuments were maintained,
18 conserved? Do you know, for instance, that in the 1990s, the government
19 reconstructed the Imperial and Jasar Pasha mosque in Pristina and the
20 Bajrakli mosque in Pec, and the Terzija bridge in Djakovica, and that all
21 these are first-class listed monuments? Are you aware of all these
22 significant monuments that I have just mentioned?
23 A. I am aware of these monuments. I'm also aware that in the case of
24 some of them, there was conservation work done on them.
25 Q. Do you know, for example, that the turbe of Sultan Murat, where he
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 died at the Battle of Kosovo, was never damaged by the Serbs? I assume
2 that you saw that turbe or mausoleum?
3 A. Yes. I visited it, and it was intact, although very badly in need
4 of restoration.
5 Q. And do you know, for example, that Sinan Pasha, the Sinan Pasha
6 mosque in Prizren, which was built in the seventeenth century, was built
7 by the material that had been used previously to build the Christian
8 monastery of the Archangel which was destroyed in order to have the mosque
9 built, and that that mosque once again, the one dating back to the
10 seventeenth century, regardless of that, was listed in the first category,
11 "Word Class Site," and maintained by the government and its
12 institutions? Are you aware of that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you know that a large number of mosques during the war was
15 used by the KLA, especially their minarets, as sniper nests and that they
16 were legitimate military targets in that case? Are you aware of that?
17 Because you delved into the reasons for the destruction of the cultural
18 monuments, I assume.
19 A. I have no way of knowing what happened during the war. What I can
20 tell you is that in many cases where we saw mosques burnt out, minarets
21 decapitated, we did not see any signs that the mosques had been targeted
22 by small-arms fire, which I would assume is the -- would have been the
23 result of a firefight with KLA or snipers. But I'm not a military expert,
24 so I couldn't begin to tell you.
25 What I can tell you is that in many cases, not only were the
1 mosques damaged or destroyed, but there was extensive evidence of
2 defacement, things like scriptures torn from their covers and scattered on
3 the ground, sometimes defaced with human excrement. The walls full of
4 Serbian graffiti, obscenities, anti-Albanian or anti-NATO slogans.
5 Clearly those are not attributable to legitimate military action.
6 That's all I can say on this subject.
7 Q. All right. As to the graffiti, the whole world knows about
8 graffiti, and they are a characteristic feature everywhere.
9 But do you know, for example, that the Hadum Mosque in Djakovica,
10 which was not directly targeted by NATO, but when it targeted places in
11 Djakovica, it did significantly destroy it on the 10th, 14th and 15th of
12 April when the mosque was in fact destroyed in the bombing although it was
13 not a direct target? Are you aware of that?
14 A. The Hadum Mosque in Djakovica is one of the sites that we have
15 documented very extensively. It is in the booklet you see there. We
16 found, first of all, no sign that it had been subjected to explosive
17 damage. The front end had been burnt down. There had been an attempt to
18 burn the interior. The minaret was decapitated, and you could see on the
19 minaret several small round holes. Again, I'm not a military expert, but
20 I would suggest that somebody was using something other than a missile
21 to -- than an aerial missile to decapitate the minaret.
22 Similarly, the library was burnt out. The airstrike damage in
23 Djakovica is -- is quite visible. There's a big Yugoslav army base on the
24 outskirts of town which was very thoroughly flattened, but surrounding
25 houses seemed in reasonable condition. And this site was at some
1 considerable distance from the centre of the old town, which looked like
2 it had been damaged by fire.
3 Q. And do you know that the members of the KLA, on the 4th of May,
4 attacked from the surrounding hills of Djakovica, and right up to the 14th
5 of May there was fighting in the area around Hadum Mosque and the
6 marketplace, and that in a repeated attack by NATO on the 25th of May, a
7 direct hit destroyed the large marketplace or, rather, the old centre of
8 town? I think in your report you have made mention of the fact that
9 somebody else did that and not NATO in that airstrike.
10 A. Well, again with a caveat that I'm not a military expert, I can
11 tell you that we did a very extensive survey of the damage to the
12 marketplace, and the damage seemed to be very circumscribed. It was
13 limited to rows of shops directly facing the main street. The rows of
14 buildings behind them tended to be in good shape. The shops all looked
15 burnt down; the interiors completely charred, the timbers of the front and
16 the roof gone. However, the partition walls behind them were, in most
17 cases, perfectly intact. And I would suggest that both the pattern of
18 destruction and the nature of destruction would indicate that this was
19 arson rather than things done from the air.
20 Q. As we quite obviously don't agree on that. We began with the
21 Prizren rebuilding, and you yourself said that you were not a ballistics
22 expert, do you really not consider that it would be a good idea for some
23 experts to take a look at it and to ascertain whether what I am claiming
24 is the truth or whether your findings are the right ones, of a
25 non-ballistic expert and so on, especially if we bear in mind the
1 information about fighting in Djakovica which went on for a full ten days
2 and the bombing of the old marketplace and that in that fighting --
3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is not a matter for the witness.
4 He's given his evidence as to what he's seen. He's given his
5 conclusions. You're saying there should be another expert. Well, that's
6 a matter for others. It's not for the witness to say.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am not saying that another expert
8 witness should be brought in, Mr. May, and I'm not suggesting anything to
9 the witness. All I'm doing is asking him for his opinion in view of the
10 fact that he is making assessments and evaluations about things that he
11 himself said he did not understand.
12 Does he consider that a group of experts, who are well-versed in
13 what neither I myself nor the witness is well-versed in --
14 JUDGE MAY: I have made the point. I have made the point, and it
15 is a ruling, that this is not a matter for this witness. You asked him
16 about the damage. He gave the best answer he could. Now, if you have any
17 further comments, you can make them, the Prosecution can make them, but
18 we're not getting anywhere by this.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Let me continue with my
20 questions then.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Who was Petrik -- is Petrik Domi [phoen]? I think you mentioned
23 him and said he secretly filmed the burning of the marketplace in
25 A. Petrik Domi was a young resident of Djakovica. His photos were
1 distributed by wire service agencies after the war.
2 Q. After the war therefore. And do you know that, during the war, he
3 was a member of the 124th Brigade of the terrorist KLA?
4 A. I have no idea.
5 Q. And that that material of his was in fact rigged, just as on many
6 occasions was the case of the wars on the territory of the former
8 A. I have no information of that sort.
9 Q. And do you happen to know that the mosque in Landovica, which you
10 visited, is only 20 metres away from the Prizren-Djakovica road, where at
11 the end of January 1995, from the minaret of that mosque, a column of the
12 Yugoslav army was targeted? And at that time in Kosovo, the Verification
13 Mission was in place.
14 A. I only described the damage. I have no information about what may
15 have happened.
16 Q. And do you have any information and were you interested at all in
17 taking a look at how many mosques were destroyed in the area where the
18 fighting went on with the so-called KLA and how many in the area where
19 there was no fighting?
20 I'm asking you this in view of the fact that you put forward your
21 facts for the indictment and some which should be relevant for an
22 assessment of that information and those facts and figures.
23 A. If you look on page 14 of the report, it has the distribution on a
25 If you could turn on the ELMO. If you could try to focus it so
1 it's all there. Okay. That's good enough. A little bit more. Good.
2 As you can see, the pattern of -- this is the map of damage to
3 Islamic religious sites. You can see that the pattern of destruction
4 covers much of Kosovo. There are significant exceptions. The city of
5 Prizren has no damage sites, whereas Djakovica, Pec, Mitrovica have large
6 numbers of damage sites. In Pristina, only one mosque was burnt, as well
7 as the archives of the Islamic community. Similarly, there were
8 relatively low numbers in other towns. However, villages all the way from
9 the north to the south were targeted. Significant exceptions include the
10 southernmost tip, the Gora region, which is Muslim but not Albanian. The
11 Goranci are Slavs who are Muslim.
12 There was a very heavy destruction in the area roughly between
13 Prizren, Djakovica, and Suva Reka, where a significant exception was the
14 village of Mamusa, which is mainly ethnically Turkish. There, the mosque
15 was intact. But most other villages in the surrounding region, the
16 mosques were destroyed or damaged.
17 Otherwise, there was less damage to be seen in Eastern Kosovo
18 where there is a fairly heavy Serbian population; in Kamenica region, Novo
19 Brdo, around Strpce, which is mainly an ethnic Serb region, as well as the
20 far north, but otherwise, you see a fairly general pattern going on.
21 Some of it is also a question of the distribution of mosques.
22 There were relatively few mosques in the Drenica region. What few there
23 were were mostly damaged or destroyed.
24 That's all I can say about patterns.
25 Q. Well, more or less what you have just said coincides with the
1 assumption that where there was combat between the army and the police on
2 one side and the terrorist KLA on the other, there was much greater
3 damage, immeasurably greater than where the Serb population was in the
4 majority and where, if we assume that the Serbs destroyed mosques, you
5 would expect the mosques to be destroyed more than in where the fighting
6 was going on.
7 Now, do you know what period, because I'm sure you deal with this,
8 when the most -- when the oldest monument to Albanian architecture dates
9 back to? And can you tell us what that monument is? What is the oldest
11 A. I think that's a question of definitions. Whether you call a
12 mosque an Albanian monument or an Islamic monument is a question. Whether
13 you call a medieval residential site one or the other is a question of
14 definitions of ethnicity.
15 The oldest Islamic sites date back to the early fourteenth
16 century. Residential architecture tends to be on the whole more recent,
17 as you would expect that people rebuild their houses quite often. But I'm
18 not sure what the point of the question is.
19 Q. The point of the question is that you have been speaking and not
20 differentiating between monuments of the Ottoman-Turkish architectural
21 type, and I'm asking you to tell me the oldest monument to Albanian
22 architecture. So we're not talking about the Ottoman and Turkish
23 architecture here but Albanian architecture.
24 What is the oldest monument to Albanian architecture in Kosovo?
25 A. I don't necessarily want to get into long historical arguments,
1 respecting the Court, but I would posit that the people who built the
2 mosques in Kosovo over the nearly 600 years that there has been Islam in
3 Kosovo had been, in the main part and especially in the villages,
4 Albanians, also in the towns. For example, in Pec, one of the mosques
5 that was -- we found destroyed was the Kursumli xhamia. You would call it
6 an Ottoman monument, but the founder of the mosque was an Albanian native
7 of Pec, Husein Pasa, who became Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire. The
8 Ottoman Empire was not a nation state, and everyone who was in the empire
9 participated, to one degree or another, in the common cultural
10 enterprise. So it's very hard to sort out, in the culture of those 600
11 years, what belongs to which nationality. I think the question, to a
12 degree, is somewhat absurd.
13 Q. I don't think it is absurd, because, for example, the Grand Vizier
14 of the Turkish sultan, Sulejman II The Magnificent, was Mehmed Pasa
15 Sokolovic, who was a Serb by origin. But we do not consider that what he
16 built, the buildings he built all over Turkey, is the subject of Serb
17 architecture. And the same holds true vice versa?
18 JUDGE MAY: What is the significance for these proceedings of all
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With these proceedings, nothing at
21 all. It has to do with --
22 JUDGE MAY: Move on to another topic, then.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.
24 Q. But are you aware of the fact that NATO, on several attempts, on
25 the 10th, the 14th, and 15th of April, in the course of May 1992 [as
1 interpreted], directly targeted the old marketplace of Pec, which was
2 destroyed, which is where the Bajrakli mosque is, the first-class,
3 world-listed monument which was devastated in part?
4 A. I'm aware of the allegations. We also investigated it, as we did
5 all of these allegations. With respect to the Bajrakli xhamia, we have
6 extensive documentation. I can tell you, first of all, the roof and the
7 walls of the mosque are completely intact, the interior completely burnt
8 out. Even the door was intact but charred. I fail to see how this could
9 be attributed to bombing, again with the caveat that I'm not a military
11 I can, however, tell you that the interior of the mosque, up to
12 about a five-metre height, was exposed to very high temperatures,
13 suggesting the use of some sort of accelerant to create the fire. The
14 furnishings of mosques are very sparse. There are only carpets. And in
15 the absence of some kind of flammable, it's very hard to set fire to one
16 that does not have wooden elements, as this one does not. The heat was so
17 high that marble columns holding up the women's balcony were completely
18 cracked by the fire, that the surface of the pulpit, which was hand-carved
19 of marble and dated from the fifteenth century, had in part been turned to
20 powdery burnt lime. I would suggest that the mosque was not collateral
21 damage from bombing but a victim of arson.
22 Q. You mean collateral damage during the bombing of the marketplace
23 in Pec?
24 A. That is what was suggested, and I suggest that was not the case.
25 In the case of the marketplace, the pattern of damage was very similar to
1 that of Djakovica. The shops on either side of the main market street
2 were badly charred, houses just one row behind were perfectly intact, and
3 this for several blocks in length. I can describe the damage. I leave
4 the conclusions.
5 Q. You claimed that the Catholic church of St. Anthony in Djakovica
6 was not damaged by the bombing, although there is a fact, and I want to
7 ask you about it, and that is: Do you know that on the 29th of March,
8 1999, during the attack on Djakovica, it was precisely NATO planes that
9 damaged the St. Anthony Church, and the whole front wall above the
10 entrance to the church was split and the nuns' part -- that the wall
11 cracked? And as far as I remember, this was justified as being collateral
12 damage. Do you know anything about that?
13 A. We visited the church and talked to the parish priest, who was
14 present in Djakovica throughout the war, and we have his account of what
15 happened. And according to his account, the Yugoslav army troops ejected
16 him and the nuns from the friary and took over the church and the parish
17 buildings as their operational quarters half an hour before the NATO
18 airstrikes. The church looked perfectly fine. It had had no repair work
19 done on it since the war, and we were there in October 1999. The parish
20 buildings had new windows, and they were busy repainting them because the
21 interior had been badly vandalised.
22 Q. And do you consider that when the army went to the konak of that
23 church was a crime, to seek shelter?
24 A. It is not for me to make legal determinations. However, I
25 understand that the use of buildings that are protected under
1 international law is analogous to the abuse of the Red Cross symbols, and
2 therefore it's not legitimate. But as I say, I'm not a lawyer.
3 Q. Very well. Although you're not a lawyer, you consider that it was
4 a violation of the law, or abuse equal to the abuse of the Red Cross
5 symbols. Now, as you consider that, could you tell me how you
6 characterised the aggression of the NATO pact on Yugoslavia?
7 JUDGE MAY: Not for the witness to deal with. Now, Mr. Milosevic,
8 we're coming to the time when we're going to adjourn. You've been
9 cross-examining this witness for very nearly an hour and 40 minutes. We
10 shall expect you to wind up tomorrow morning fairly soon.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I haven't been able to complete my
12 questions because I didn't expect this witness, Mr. May. As you well
13 know, this witness turned up --
14 JUDGE MAY: Tomorrow morning we'll go on.
15 Mr. Nice, what is the position after this witness?
16 MR. NICE: There's no witness, apart from this witness, for
17 tomorrow, because of events concerning a witness who might have been
18 called today. We then have a slightly tricky position on Thursday and
19 Friday. A witness, General Drewienkiewicz, is due to give evidence, and
20 although, as I think I told you earlier today, he's going to produce a
21 considerable quantity of material, it had been hoped to fit him into
22 Thursday and Friday if we had full sitting days. Of course, Thursday and
23 Friday are now not going to be absolutely full days, and I'm concerned
24 that it may not be possible to have his evidence completed in two days.
25 I'm not sure how difficult it's going to be for him to stay over or to be
1 available for next Monday. I'm hoping it may be possible, but it's
2 certainly going to be extremely difficult.
3 I mention that because, of course, the Chamber had had it in mind
4 to deal with some administrative matters and some general topics at the
5 end of the week, by which we took Your Honour to mean Thursday or Friday.
6 When this witness is concluded, might tomorrow be suitable? Although it
7 will be difficult for us, I think, to have got all the answers to Your
8 Honours' questions by then, I've already started the process of speeding
9 up our work on those questions to see if they could be dealt with tomorrow
10 if everybody else would be in a position to.
11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It will obviously be convenient, then, to deal
12 with those matters tomorrow, the procedural matters. We'll have time
14 MR. NICE: We certainly will.
15 JUDGE MAY: As for the witness that you mentioned, you say
16 Thursday is not a full day. My recollection is that it is.
17 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. My mistake. Thursday is, Friday isn't.
18 JUDGE MAY: That's right.
19 MR. NICE: Entirely my -- can I mention something else, just ...
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. NICE: Simply because I'm on my feet, rather than having us
22 popping up and down, I'm mentioning something on Ms. Romano's behalf
23 relating to this witness's evidence. There is a question that arises
24 about the two exhibits shown to him -- two documents shown to him by the
25 accused, which he was able to deal with, and whether they should become
1 exhibits. And secondly, I understand that there is a CD, or CD-ROM,
2 whatever these things are called, detailing all of the survey, containing
3 all the photographs of the survey, which it hadn't been possible for the
4 unit here to reproduce in time for today but which it probably will be
5 possible for them to have got produced for tomorrow.
6 Now, in light of the very extensive questions that have been asked
7 of the witness by the accused, the witness might prefer to be in a
8 position, as he would be tomorrow, to deal with some of those issues by
9 the CD-ROM, which can be produced for the Chamber, and indeed for the
10 accused, to help.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. NICE: I'm grateful. Apparently the amici and the accused
13 have the material already, but I think Your Honours may be assisted by
14 having this as well tomorrow.
15 JUDGE MAY: We do not want to retain the witness too long
16 tomorrow, if that can be avoided. We'll consider that in the morning. As
17 for the other two photographs, I don't know where they have got to.
18 MR. NICE: I think one of them -- I think they've gone back to the
19 accused. Obviously I haven't discussed the issue with Mr. Riedlmayer, but
20 it may be that he will have a view on whether he could explain some of
21 these very detailed answers he's giving about particular buildings of
22 which the accused asked him by reference to the CD-ROM. I don't know what
23 his answer will be.
24 JUDGE MAY: He's heard that. He can consider it overnight.
25 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, half past 9.00.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.31 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of April
3 2002, at 9.30 a.m.