Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3778

1 Thursday, 25 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness make the declaration.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to take a seat.

12 Yes.

13 Examined by Ms. Romano:

14 Q. Witness, can you please state your full name for the Court,

15 please.

16 A. Yes. My name is Ndrec Konaj.

17 Q. Mr. Konaj, where and when were you born?

18 A. I was born on December 3rd, 1954, at the Novosella e Eperme,

19 Dukagjin.

20 Q. And in which municipality and town did you live?

21 A. The municipality of Gjakove.

22 Q. Can you tell us where it's located, the municipality in Kosovo,

23 and the villages surrounding your town?

24 A. The municipality of Gjakove is about 36 kilometres from Peja,

25 approximately 82 kilometres from Prishtina. The surrounding villages or

Page 3779

1 neighbourhoods are Piskote, Brekoci, Bishtazhini.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. That's enough.

3 A. You're welcome.

4 Q. And what is your profession?

5 A. I work as a building inspector.

6 Q. Mr. Konaj, you were interviewed by members of the Office of the

7 Prosecutor on 19th of April, 1999; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. You were also interviewed on the 12th of June, 2001; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct too.

12 Q. And you gave two statements?

13 A. That's true.

14 Q. You attended a meeting on the 3rd of January this year in Peja,

15 and at that meeting you were provided, by an appointed officer of the

16 Tribunal, you were provided with a version of your statement in the

17 Albanian language; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. And at that meeting, you also had an opportunity to review that

20 statement and confirm that the contents of your two statements were true?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution submits the two statements into

23 evidence.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 112, Your Honours.

25 MS. ROMANO: The summary of the witness's testimony is the

Page 3780

1 following: The witness refers to incidents in 1998 when, according to the

2 witness, Serb police damaged, looted two of his houses. On 27 March,

3 1999, the witness was staying at his father's house in

4 Peja town with other relatives and friends. Around 2.00 p.m., 15 masked

5 paramilitaries entered the yard carrying automatic weapons, grenades, and

6 rifles with bayonets. They shot at the house, robbed the witness, and

7 gave the occupants five minutes to leave in the direction of Montenegro.

8 En route, the witness observed military or police at every road

9 junction to prevent deviation from the route. The witness's group was

10 stopped several times. On one occasion, the witness and his uncle were

11 stopped and beaten by a group of nine men with painted faces. On another

12 occasion, the witness was told by a Serb policeman, "There is no place for

13 you to go other than to Montenegro." The Serbian police, army, and the

14 paramilitary troops were located at the entrance of every street to

15 prevent them from going back.

16 On 28 March, 1999, the group was stopped on the outskirts of Peja

17 by mixed Serb forces and were ordered to return to the town centre. There

18 were thousands of people from all over Peja in the centre. About 20

19 trucks and buses were filled with displaced persons a number of times and

20 set off towards Prizren. The witness got on a bus driven by an armed

21 paramilitary. In Prizren, the displaced persons were told to leave the

22 bus and walk to Albania. The driver said, "Go to Albania. This is not

23 your place. This is Great Serbia."

24 Other buses then arrived and took the displaced persons to

25 Vermica, about 7 kilometres to the border with Albania. The witness then

Page 3781

1 walked to the border, and his group was told to throw driver's licences,

2 passports, and all other ID documents into a large box. The witness saw

3 vehicle registration plates in the box as well.

4 That's the summary. No further questions.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Microphone.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. It's all right now.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] How long have you been living in Pec?

9 A. Since 1956.

10 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let's get it put straight. Just a

11 moment, Mr. Milosevic. We'll see what the problem is.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Where were you employed during the time that your statement

14 encompasses, that is to say, at the beginning of 1998 and 1999?

15 A. I was unemployed since 1990.

16 Q. In your statement, you say that the relationships between the

17 Serbs and the Kosovars deteriorated in 1990. Is that right?

18 A. Yes, they were. That is true, yes.

19 Q. Do you know that Kosovo is in Serbia?

20 A. It never has been. It never will be.

21 Q. Do you know that Kosovo is in Serbia today too?

22 A. In your opinion it could be. In ours, no.

23 Q. Why do you say there was a deterioration in the relationships, as

24 you say?

25 A. Because we were ill-treated for years on end. We were -- we were

Page 3782

1 beaten up, attacked in every possible manner.

2 Q. Are you aware of the fact -- do you know how many Serbs left

3 Kosovo since, for example, 1980, up to 1990, when you say the

4 relationships became deteriorated, under pressure and precisely because of

5 that kind of treatment, the treatment that the Serb inhabitants had in

6 Kosovo? Are you aware of that?

7 A. The question is not very clear. No. Do you mean during the war?

8 Q. No, I don't. What I'm asking you is whether you know that since

9 1980, not to go back further in time, do you know how many Serbs left

10 Kosovo under the kind of treatment that you're talking about, but in the

11 opposite direction, the other way around?

12 A. Did I mention ill-treatment directed towards them? Who? I'm

13 not -- I'm not clear. Who ill-treated who?

14 Q. Well, that's why I'm asking you. You mentioned the fact -- a fact

15 that I am challenging. So I am asking you whether you know how many Serbs

16 left before 1990, in the ten-year period from 1980 to 1990, left Kosovo

17 because of the terror the Albanians exerted against them. Do you know

18 that?

19 A. No. This is ridiculous to allege that the Albanians have

20 exercised any kind of terror upon the Serbian population. I'm not aware

21 that this ever occurred. I have no knowledge of this. Even if any

22 individual left, they left out of their own interest, probably to improve

23 their economic situation.

24 Q. So you don't know that these Serbs left these areas, for example,

25 the area of your municipality, the municipality of Pec, too?

Page 3783

1 A. No.

2 Q. And do you know that there are facts and figures about that, books

3 written about it, statistics, individual cases, group cases, and so on and

4 so forth?

5 JUDGE MAY: He said he doesn't know, so there's no point going on

6 about it.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

8 Q. You said that you lived -- in your statement, you say that you

9 lived, after 1990 -- you said: "Our Serb neighbours used to say hello to

10 us. We drank together, had coffee together." So when did that situation

11 change? When did that state of affairs change for the worse? Did it

12 happen at that time?

13 A. On the references to coffee-taking, no, no. This began in 1990,

14 the campaign began, and the worsening of the situation vis-a-vis our

15 neighbours. It is true that we were neighbours. They had their own

16 land. Before 1990, it is true that we used to greet one another. But we

17 were unaware of the intentions that came to pass, that the worst came to

18 pass later.

19 Q. So when did the situation worsen, in fact?

20 A. As of 1990 onwards, and between 1998 and 1999, there was the

21 exodus of the entire population in Kosova at large, and in Peja in

22 particular, and this is the time when their attitude towards us worsened.

23 Q. So that was mid-1998, as you yourself say. So from mid-1998.

24 That's what you said. Is that correct?

25 A. No, not from mid-1998, but in Peja, the situation worsened to the

Page 3784

1 extreme after Loxhe came under attack.

2 Q. So Lodza was the turning point which marked the deterioration in

3 the situation. When did that occur?

4 A. The situation had always been tense, and if you could allow me to

5 take a document out of my own bag...

6 JUDGE MAY: What is the document, Mr. Konaj, that you want to

7 refer to?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My notes, Your Honour. I've got my

9 own notes, things that I've been unable to recall as a result of the

10 terror and mistreatment, which makes one have difficulty remembering

11 things. If you could permit me to consult them, given that the accused

12 wants the date.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. When did you make the note?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the course of time in Kosova,

15 after the war.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On July the 5th, I left my own house

18 in the neighbourhood known as Bellopoje. And on the 6th, in the morning,

19 Loxhe came under attack.

20 As far as I can recall, the criminal Seselj was coming to visit

21 Gorazhdec and one of the vehicles escorting the convoy entered Loxhe and

22 incited the problem that resulted in the killing of a number of

23 civilians. Whilst at 5.45 a.m. on the 6th, Loxhe came under attack by

24 military aircraft.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3785

1 Q. And why have you called Seselj a criminal? Do you know him to be

2 a criminal?

3 A. It is very well known that pursuant to their orders and yours,

4 these criminal incidents occurred, these tortures occurred. Excuse me for

5 expressing myself this way but this is the truth.

6 Q. Since that is not true, because how could he order anything, let's

7 move on. You, therefore, marked what you call the attack on Lodza as the

8 turning point in the situation, in the state of affairs in Pec. Am I

9 reading you correctly? It was a turning point for the worse. The

10 situation deteriorated after that; is that right?

11 A. It had been bad all the time, but on this particular day when

12 Loxhe came under attack, the situation became sadder with the

13 ill-treatment and other activities that occurred.

14 Q. All right. As you have made a written statement, I don't see why

15 you have to read your statement again. If you gave the statement, I

16 assume you know what you said in it.

17 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter of comment. The witness is referring

18 to his notes to get the detail.

19 Yes. Can we move on?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just asked for a detail and I got

21 the detail. What he's reading now is not a detail. They are comments.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've got my own statement.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. What did you say?

25 A. And I'm now putting it away.

Page 3786












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Page 3787

1 Q. You gave the statement to the investigators of the Tribunal in

2 April 1999; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So in April 1999, you claim that the situation had worsened

5 approximately 16 months ago, or, rather, that it took place on the first

6 Saturday in the month of July in 1998. That's what it says. "It was the

7 first Saturday in July 1998" is what your statement says.

8 A. Can you please clarify this? It is not very clear.

9 Regarding the city of Peja, this -- we have -- the suggestion has

10 always been worse. But I mentioned earlier, on the 5th of July, when

11 Loxhe came under attack, at that point the entire city became three times

12 more -- three times more worse, as it were, because of the siege of

13 Serbian forces.

14 Q. So according to you, the situation was three times worse because

15 the attack on Lodza, according to what you say. Is that it?

16 A. They came, but as many as three times more reinforcements of

17 Serbian forces. The ill-treatment, beatings, enigmatic killings.

18 Q. Yes. I have heard about those expressions that the other

19 witnesses used too, but what I'm interested in is the facts.

20 Now, do you know - I'm sure you must know as a citizen of Pec -

21 that the attack on Lodza was organised by the leadership of the KLA and

22 that that --

23 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the witness answer.

24 Do you know that this attack was organised by the leadership of

25 the KLA?

Page 3788

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's not at all

2 true. It's known very well that police vehicles, as I said before, they

3 escorted Seselj's convoy. And one of these vehicles entered the road at

4 the junction from Gorazhdec that goes to Loxhe, and there they met some

5 young kids who were playing with a ball in the road, and they were

6 witnesses of what happened. And then they maltreated these kids. And

7 Tahir Shalaj was killed on that same day.


9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. And do you know the name of Tahir Zemaj?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Your Honour, excuse me.

12 Shall I explain more clearly?

13 JUDGE MAY: What's the question, Mr. Milosevic?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "Do you know the name of Tahir

15 Zemaj?"

16 JUDGE MAY: What's the significance of this name?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The significance of this name is

18 that Tahir Zemaj was the chief commander of the units that carried out the

19 attack on Lodza. His deputy was the notorious bandit Ramush

20 Haradinaj and--

21 JUDGE MAY: The witness has said that it was not -- it did not

22 take place in the way that you suggested. So there's no point going on

23 putting things to him.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And do you know that in your sources, the KLA calls the Lodza

Page 3789

1 battle, as they refer to it, as one of the most professional operations

2 carried out by the KLA? Do you know that?

3 A. No, I don't know this.

4 Q. And do you know that the 134th Brigade took part in that battle,

5 precisely according to the information provided by the KLA command? Do

6 you know that?

7 A. No, I don't know about this.

8 JUDGE MAY: This is not part of his statement. It comes in as a

9 result of your cross-examination. We should return to the statement.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, haven't we all heard here that

11 the battle in Lodza was the turning point for the worse, and this is

12 one --

13 JUDGE MAY: We have heard that. It comes in as a result of your

14 cross-examination and you have examined the witness about it. You've put

15 your case to him. It seems to be a waste of the Court's time to go on

16 further. He wasn't there. He's merely telling what he heard. And I

17 suggest we move on.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

19 Q. Since you heard that a battle had taken place, between who did

20 this battle take place in Lodza?

21 A. The Serbian police and army against innocent civilians in the

22 village of Loxhe.

23 Q. And do you know that your own commanders, who are now publicly

24 writing about that battle, speak of --

25 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this. The witness is merely

Page 3790

1 accounting what he heard. It doesn't assist the Trial Chamber. If it's

2 relevant, you can call evidence about it in due course, but this has gone

3 on for more than 20 minutes. You've only got one hour. You should be

4 concentrating on what's in the statement from now on.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, please bear in mind - and I

6 wish to highlight that - since he said that this was a key issue, a

7 turning point, in terms of the deterioration of the situation, and since

8 this is the most flagrant possible twisting of facts, and there is

9 irrefutable evidence about this, including books published by KLA

10 commanders --

11 JUDGE MAY: This is all argument. The witness has given his

12 evidence. This is what he said is true and what happened. You've had the

13 opportunity to cross-examine him about it. Now it's time to move on to

14 another issue.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Do you know the name of Ramabaja?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And do you know the name of Stojkaj?

19 A. I know that they're from Decan municipality somewhere.

20 Q. And do you know the name of Hadri Djonaj?

21 A. I come from Peja municipality, not from Decan municipality, and I

22 know my own area.

23 Q. I'm talking about Pec; not about who was born in Pec, but who did

24 something in Pec. Do you know the name of Farush Thaci?

25 A. This question is not clear to me.

Page 3791

1 Q. I'm asking you whether you know the name of that man. Do you know

2 that man, Farush Thaci?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And do you know the name of a man called Salih Ceku?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And do you know the name of Rrustem Buci?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And have you heard of Shaban Shala?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What about Hasan Kamaja? Have you heard of him?

11 JUDGE MAY: That's enough of these lists. He doesn't know these

12 people.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These are names of commanders of

14 units of the KLA who at that time, precisely at the time about which this

15 witness has been saying the most incredible things, were attacking Lodza,

16 with major forces, with the intention of --

17 JUDGE MAY: I've told you to move on. Now, unless you've got some

18 different questions for this witness, we'll conclude the examination.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have many other different

20 questions. Don't worry about that. I just have one question, because the

21 witness was a building inspector, he finished school.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Do you know that a book came out published by Mergimi in the year

24 2000 - this is a mere photocopy, though - and the book is called "Thus

25 Spoke Tahir Zemaj: Comments About the War."

Page 3792

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the other names.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Are you aware of this book that you published in 2000?

4 JUDGE MAY: Are you suggesting -- just one moment. Are you

5 suggesting the witness published it?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. No, I'm not saying that. The

7 same people who sent him here published the book in order to portray

8 events in this way.

9 JUDGE MAY: This is a comment.

10 Do you know anything about this book?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that it's been published, but

12 I've never actually seen a copy.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And do you know that in that book is information given by your

15 commanders? And recoilless guns are mentioned there, heavy guns, heavy

16 armaments, all these other things --

17 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't know anything about it, and it's quite

18 wrong to refer to "your commanders," quite wrong. There's no evidence of

19 that. Now, you could put the book in front of us, for what it's worth, in

20 due course, if you wish to. Meanwhile, we should continue with this

21 examination on a different topic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I highlight this, I mention

23 recoilless guns and heavy weapons that they mention here, precisely

24 because the witness said, only a short while ago, that the army and police

25 clashed with unarmed civilians, and it was numerous units of the KLA that

Page 3793

1 took part in that, and they attacked Lodza. And in that book --

2 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this examination unless you move to

3 another topic.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So if it is quite clear that the

5 witness is saying a total untruth --

6 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... it's for us to

7 decide. Now, move on.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. It would be the same

9 thing as if you were to decide on whether today is Saturday or not.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. When did you send your older son to Switzerland?

12 A. Before July, sometime towards the beginning of February, as far as

13 I remember.

14 Q. As for the month of July, you marked it as the point when things

15 turned for the worse, and you said that in April, the next year, the

16 following year, after less than ten months, or rather, eight months, you

17 stated that the situation abruptly turned for the worse 16 months prior to

18 that. How is that possible? Is that your statement from April or some

19 later statement?

20 A. Your Honour, the accused is confusing things up. I was very plain

21 in what I said. I said that the attack on Loxhe took place on the 5th of

22 July. On the 6th, there were attacks from the air by helicopter. I sent

23 my son to Switzerland earlier --

24 JUDGE MAY: We have your evidence on that point.

25 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. What's the next question?

Page 3794

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Who is the person called Lorenz Konaj?

3 A. It's my brother.

4 Q. Where does he live?

5 A. Are you really interested? Shall I tell him, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE MAY: No, unless there's any relevance in this. Where did

7 he live in 1998 or 1999? Can you help us with that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. He was in Germany. He

9 was harried there.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. What did he do in relation to the KLA?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know of any activity of his related to the organisation of

14 the KLA and related to his life in Germany?

15 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MS. ROMANO: Unless there is any relevance of the family of the

18 accused, I think it --

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 MR. KAY: Your Honour, might we raise a point on this? If it's a

21 matter of influence over this particular witness, then it may be a

22 legitimate route of questioning for the accused to go down. That's what

23 we would say on his behalf.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE MAY: We'll allow these questions providing the relevance

Page 3795












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Page 3796

1 can be established.

2 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You must ask some questions to establish any

3 relevance of this and then you can put directly what you say about the

4 brother.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So my direct question is: Does he know about the participation of

7 his brother in the organisation of the KLA related to his stay in

8 Germany?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. You said in your statement, in relation to this first Saturday in

11 the month, that your wife had a premonition that something bad would

12 happen, and it was according to this premonition of his -- of hers that

13 you sent your mother and two daughters to your father's house, which is in

14 Pec. And after that, you and your wife left your house and also went to

15 your father's house. All of that happened during the same day, if I read

16 it correctly.

17 A. That's not quite right. The truth is as follows: My -- I sent

18 away my wife [as interpreted] and two daughters two months ago to the

19 Karagac neighbourhood, whereas my wife and I stayed where we were in the

20 neighbourhood Bellopoje, until the 5th of July when, because this --

21 because this area had been surrounded and -- and everybody stayed around

22 the cemeteries. On the very same day, on the 5th of July, my wife would

23 not agree to spend the night there and so I insisted that we join the

24 mother and our daughters. On the very next day, we heard of the attack at

25 Loxhe.

Page 3797

1 Q. So this coincides with the information provided here. You left

2 your house just before the attack, practically a few hours before the

3 attack. If you left the previous day and if the attack took place in the

4 early morning, one could say that this was only a few hours prior to the

5 attack; is that right?

6 A. Yes, before, but we were unaware that Loxhe would come under

7 attack. There was no fighting whatsoever. It was -- it was at the

8 insistence of my wife that we left. And we went through the cemeteries of

9 Muslims and the Catholics on the lower part of the cemeteries, which were

10 full of armed civilians and paramilitaries.

11 Q. So you had not been informed that an attack would take place on

12 Lodza. You left prior to the attack because of the premonition of your

13 wife. That is what you've been claiming.

14 A. I was not aware. Let me reiterate. I had no contacts or

15 conversations, because we were staying indoors, in the house.

16 Q. So you did not have any contacts, any talks with anyone from the

17 KLA?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Saqir Studenica, did he tell you who had looted your house and

20 damaged it?

21 A. Saqir Studenica told me that my house had been attacked and that

22 he had sent the corpse of the late Naxhije Hoti there. She's the mother

23 of my neighbour, killed by the police at the Petran object, one of those

24 where vehicles were checked. This happened on the Tuesday, not on July

25 the 5th.

Page 3798

1 She was killed on Monday, and on Tuesday Saqir Studenica told me

2 about it, because police came to the house of my uncle's, looking for my

3 son, and then I went myself there.

4 Q. And why did the police come to your uncle's place to look for his

5 sons if they were living at your address?

6 A. That woman who was killed and sent into the balcony of my house,

7 it was alleged that my -- "Your son has killed a policeman." My uncle

8 emerged to say that is not true, because he has not been here for a long

9 while. And so they forced my uncle to go and identify the victim.

10 Q. How come your son was suspected of having killed that woman and he

11 was not anywhere nearby?

12 A. The accused should ask the police about that, because that's what

13 they said.

14 Q. As far as I understand this, the police was acting upon the

15 instructions of the investigating judge in the course of the investigation

16 of the killing of this woman, and your son was a suspect. Are you aware

17 of that or not?

18 JUDGE MAY: You needn't answer that.

19 Mr. Milosevic, you've spent three-quarters of an hour dealing with

20 events in July 1998 which are of peripheral relevance to this witness's

21 evidence. If you wish to challenge his account, his substantial account

22 of events in March 1999, you should do so in the quarter of an hour

23 remaining to you for examination.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that there is no

25 need for me to repeat that I absolutely contest everything that this

Page 3799

1 witness has said, just like other witnesses who are not telling the

2 truth. From the very beginning of these hearings here --

3 JUDGE MAY: No need to make a speech about it, but if you want to

4 ask him about what happened in March, you should do so now.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The second thing I wish to have

6 clarified is the following: I assume that it is not forbidden to have me

7 question one witness for a shorter period of time and another witness for

8 a longer period of time but if it all adds up to the amount of time

9 allocated to me. I hope that this is something that you won't mind.

10 JUDGE MAY: It is something we will take into account, but the

11 normal rule would be a one-hour maximum.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You planned one hour, if that's the

13 maximum, and then you planned for four 92 bis witnesses to be heard today;

14 is that right?

15 JUDGE MAY: There is no plan as to how many witnesses there should

16 be. But let us move on.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I was thinking that within

18 this time that you have allocated to me, I should economise in a more

19 rational way, but all right.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Tell me, did your sons have a criminal record on the territory of

22 the SFRY, the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

23 JUDGE MAY: That's not a relevant question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never. Never.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3800

1 Q. Tell me, then, why did the police take your uncle Anton Konaj on

2 that day to your house?

3 A. They asked the uncle to go and identify the corpse that they had

4 placed in the balcony of my own house.

5 Q. Since you had heard that your house had been damaged and looted,

6 why did you go to your uncle's first and then only to the police station

7 so that you would say what was going on, as you had put it?

8 A. Not on what had happened, because the police had come into the

9 house at daylight and done what they did. This is not true. I went to my

10 own house to inquire about what the police were about, because the police

11 were unable to get in contact with me. They got in contact with Shaqir

12 Studenica who came to me, and both of us went to the house.

13 Upon arrival, my uncle told me that if I did not go to the police,

14 they were bound to come again at any time; at night, in the morning. And

15 so I decided to go and report at the police station. My uncle came with

16 me.

17 Upon arriving there, one of the policemen said there was no need,

18 because we are aware who did this, and you should not go to your own

19 properties. And at that moment the uncle came, asked, "How about our own

20 houses?" And at that moment, the policeman insulted him, and then I took

21 my uncle and both of us left.

22 Q. And how did the policeman attack him?

23 A. He insulted him, basically, on his mother's name.

24 Q. So he cursed him, he swore at him?

25 A. Yes. Yes. He said, "'F' your Albanian mother," and then at that

Page 3801

1 moment I just took my own uncle and went out.

2 Q. And when did you leave Kosovo to go to Montenegro, actually?

3 A. In 1998, I left Kosova twice. That is to say, on the 9th or the

4 10th, on a Friday, in the morning, before leaving as a result of police

5 patrols coming to inquire about us at my father's, before departing for

6 Montenegro, my wife and me went to the graveyard, where a neighbour said,

7 "Do not go to your own houses." And at that moment my wife, with the

8 neighbour's wife, went to a different house, where a Macedonian married to

9 a Serb lived, and she escorted them to my own house just to be able to see

10 whether the corpse was still in the balcony.

11 Upon arriving there, they emerged from the windows, asked, "Where

12 are you heading to?" And she said, "To my own house." And then she went

13 in and saw everything that had been demolished, walls full of graffiti:

14 "Welcome back," "Serbia reaches up to Tirana," and so on and so forth.

15 At that point, we departed for Montenegro.

16 Q. And you say that before you left, your house was taken over by

17 snipers?

18 A. Yes, it is true. The other two were demolished and destroyed, and

19 the Court has got photographs of it. They were one-storey buildings,

20 whilst the unfinished, new houses were the locations where the snipers

21 were positioned, not only these two houses but another three or four in

22 that very same neighbourhood, and they had an overview over the whole

23 territory of Loxhe and Peja.

24 Q. And who were those people in your house, the snipers who took over

25 your house? Who were they?

Page 3802

1 A. We were not in a position to go and see who they were, because had

2 we encountered them, we don't know what the end result would have been.

3 They were called Frenki.

4 Q. And did you say a moment ago that your wife just found graffiti

5 written up on the walls of your house? You were talking about your own

6 house, or did I misunderstand you?

7 A. The graffiti on the walls and the doors of the house were in

8 Serbo-Croatian. It is very clear from the photographs. The Serbian

9 police and the army, whoever was there, had written them. I wasn't there

10 to verify who, which one of the parties did that, but it was very clear

11 what was written: "From here to Tirana, it's Serbia," "This is Serbia,"

12 "We'll be back."

13 Q. "We'll be back." Well, what does that mean, "We'll be back"? It

14 means that somebody had written that who had left the place.

15 JUDGE MAY: Not for the witness to speculate as to what the

16 meaning of graffiti is.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. On the occasion, did you see a lot of houses that were burnt,

19 damaged, from the effects of -- in that part of Lodza?

20 A. On the 6th of July, we were only able to see things from a

21 distance, from afar, from my father's. We were only to see smoke, and

22 smoke specks were reaching up the city, because the place had come under

23 attack by military aircraft. And I don't know why you ask this question,

24 because a number of houses must have been burnt. Loxhe was completely

25 flattened.

Page 3803

1 Q. You used the same expression that was used by these commanders,

2 KLA commanders here, because they said that they ordered everything to be

3 flattened to the ground and set fire to, in this book here.

4 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter of comment.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Well, I'm asking him whether there is any link and relevance, that

7 is to say, that you're using the same expression that they used in the

8 book, "flattened."

9 A. Helicopters and military aircraft with Serbian insignia. Who

10 else? Who else could have procured that, apart from your own army and the

11 police who bombed them that day, who bombed the entire village?

12 Q. And those commanders of yours write and say that their fighters in

13 the battle with the Serb forces did that. That's what they say.

14 JUDGE MAY: You have insisted on continuing a line of

15 cross-examination which you were told was of little relevance, and as a

16 result, I'm bringing this cross-examination to an end. You're continually

17 reverting to the same point in your case.

18 Now, have the amici any questions?

19 No, no more questions. No.

20 Have the amici any questions?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have 50 more questions for

22 this man.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

24 questions for this witness.

25 JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

Page 3804












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3805

1 MS. ROMANO: No, Your Honour. It's just one matter. If the Court

2 needs the photos that the witness is referring to -- the Prosecution

3 didn't want to submit the photos because they are outside of the period of

4 the indictment, but for clarification of the graffiti, if the Court needs,

5 we'll have it.

6 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much.

7 And thank you for bringing them, Mr. Konaj, but we've heard the

8 evidence, and it is more than sufficient. Thank you for coming. You're

9 free to go now.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, before we bring the other witness, I

13 just would like to clarify one matter. I wanted to let the Court know

14 that one of the witnesses, the third one, Mahmut Halimi, he had to be

15 taken to the hospital for an exam. So right now, during the morning, he

16 is in the hospital.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

18 MS. ROMANO: Sorry. I've just been informed that he arrived from

19 the hospital, so we won't have to change the order of the witness. Sorry

20 about that, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MAY: Who is the next witness?

22 MS. ROMANO: It's Edison Zatriqi.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Prosecutor kindly provide a resume to

24 the interpreters, please.

25 MS. ROMANO: Yes, I will take care of that.

Page 3806

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

8 Yes.

9 Examined by Ms. Romano:

10 Q. Witness, can you please state your full name to the Court.

11 A. My name is Edison Zatriqi.

12 Q. Where and when were you born?

13 A. I was born on 5th of December, 1956, in Peja.

14 Q. In which municipality is Peja located?

15 A. Peja is a municipality in itself.

16 Q. And can you describe the villages surrounding Peja?

17 A. There are a lot of villages in Peja municipality. There is Loxhe,

18 Rahociq, and then Cisk [phoen], Pavlani, Radafc.

19 Q. Thank you. What is your profession?

20 A. At the moment, I am a driver for the regional office of the OSCE

21 in Peja.

22 Q. And you are an Albanian?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, you were interviewed by members of the Office of the

25 Prosecutor on the 20th of June, 2001; is that correct?

Page 3807

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you give a statement at that time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the 29th of January this year, you attended a meeting in Peja

5 before members of the Office of the Prosecutor and an appointed officer of

6 the Tribunal, and at that meeting you were provided with an Albanian copy

7 of your statement; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You reviewed your statement, and you also made an addendum to

10 correct minor mistakes from your first statement; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's right. I corrected the errors at that time, and they

12 were translation mistakes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. ROMANO: The summary of the witness's testimony is the

15 following: The witness is a lifelong resident of Peja and was a director

16 of a coach company named Flamingo Tours, which owned three coaches.

17 On 23 March 1999, the witness was ordered to the company yard by

18 Serb police who took away the three coaches. When the witness asked for

19 documentary confirmation, one of the policemen pointed his gun at the

20 witness and threatened him. He did not see the vehicles again until he

21 returned to Peja after the armed conflict. The witness subsequently found

22 out that his buses had been used to transport Kosovo Albanians out of

23 Peja.

24 The witness also describes that on 27 March 1999, he was in his

25 house when he saw Serb military firing shells from the hospital yard and

Page 3808

1 secondary school towards the area of Kapeshnica. The witness moved to the

2 home of a relative in another neighbourhood.

3 The following day, 28th of March, the witness and his family drove

4 to Rozaje, Montenegro, in a long convoy of vehicles. En route, they

5 passed armed police and civilians who were directing them. The witness

6 left Kosovo as he feared for his safety and that of his family.

7 He returned to Peja on 26 July 1999 to find his home, business

8 offices, and coaches completely burnt out.

9 This is the summary. No further questions.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The statement should be exhibited.

11 MS. ROMANO: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honour. We submit the

12 statements.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit 113, Your Honours.

14 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please.

17 Microphone.

18 JUDGE MAY: Microphone.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused speak into the microphone,

20 please. We did not hear the beginning.

21 JUDGE MAY: Can you start again? The interpreters didn't hear the

22 beginning.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Would the accused please speak into the

24 microphone.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Page 3809

1 Q. [Interpretation] As you spent your whole life in Pec and that you

2 dealt in the field of transport; that is to say, you communicated a great

3 deal in that environment. You went to and fro. Can we assume that you

4 are well acquainted with the situation in Pec and that you were well

5 acquainted with the situation in Pec prior to the war?

6 A. It's true that I've spent all my life in Peja, but I haven't

7 always been involved in transport. I became involved in transport after I

8 was dismissed from the Ljubljana bank from where I was dispensed in 1991,

9 and then I started as a driver.

10 It is true that I travelled a lot, around a large part of the

11 Balkans apart -- as far as Austria, Italy, and so on.

12 Q. The point of my question was to say that you were well acquainted

13 with the situation and circumstances in Pec and as they were just before

14 the war; is that right?

15 A. Yes. Relatively well. I'm relatively well-informed.

16 Q. Yes. And the fact that before working in transport you worked in

17 the Slovenia bank was also a job which meant communicating with people and

18 learning quite a bit in the process; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's true.

20 Q. What were, during those pre-war years, the relationships in Pec

21 like? Can you tell us briefly in one or two sentences? Describe what the

22 relationships were like.

23 A. I can answer, but you must make clear in which period of time,

24 whether it's before you came to power or afterwards.

25 Q. I'm talking about the period just before the war. Now, you can

Page 3810

1 talk about whatever period you like, but what I'm asking you is just

2 before the war, the period just prior to the war, which means 1998, 1999,

3 to be more specific.

4 A. Even though this period was a very difficult one because our

5 movements were very restricted at this time, relations between the

6 Albanians and the Serbs were very chilly. They were especially chilly

7 after the mysterious murders that started in Peja in 1998 with the murder

8 of the Gjuka brothers, the murder of Dr. Ceku, the murder of Dr. Xhevad

9 Gashi, and of Emin Basha. This led to relations cooling considerably.

10 Q. Do you know who killed these Albanians, the Albanians that you've

11 just mentioned?

12 A. In this period, particularly in Peja, this was an open secret.

13 These murders were directed and carried out by a notorious organisation

14 called the Black Hand, which, particularly at dusk and at dawn, it

15 kidnapped Albanians that were on the streets accidently and then nothing

16 more was heard of them. And they may well -- they were often found the

17 next day, dead.

18 Q. I don't know which Black Hand organisation you're talking about.

19 We know about one organisation called Crna Ruka, or Black Hand, which

20 dates back a hundred years. And that one ceased to exist a long time

21 ago. It has joined the rank of history.

22 So what Black Hand are you talking about?

23 A. I don't know anything about the Black Hand organisation which was

24 formed 120 years ago, but I know that it continued its work in Peja, and

25 its members were regular policemen who during the day did police work and

Page 3811

1 during the night committed cruel murders in our city.

2 Q. And what is it that you're looking for in the papers you have in

3 front of you? Are you looking for the Black Hand, perhaps?

4 A. No. Fortunately, I did not experience the work of the Black Hand

5 in Peja before the war.

6 Q. Well, do tell us, then, please. Do tell us, then, please, at

7 least who told you about this Black Hand.

8 A. There was a lot of talk about the Black Hand in Peja at that time,

9 and I can say I've got a few members of this organisation here in my

10 notes, and they included my neighbours. And as I said before, there was a

11 lot of talk about this organisation in our city.

12 JUDGE MAY: Just help with us this, Mr. Zatriqi: What are the

13 notes which you have in front of you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These notes that I have are about

15 the period before the war and the moment of my deportation along with my

16 fellow citizens.

17 JUDGE MAY: And when did you make the notes?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I made these notes at the time when

19 these events happened. All the notes I had, I put into a computer and

20 then printed them out.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 MR. KAY: Your Honour, might I assist the Court that the notes

24 there look handwritten to me, and on the top of the page. We seem to be

25 having a succession of witnesses now bringing notes into the courtroom,

Page 3812

1 and one really questions whether that is desirable, given the fact that

2 this is cross-examination by the accused at this stage, the witnesses have

3 their statement produced as exhibits, a summary given to the Court, and it

4 might be more helpful to the proceedings if they just answered the

5 questions unaided rather than referring to notes that may well have a

6 different history and background that could cloud the issues.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay, this would meet your requirement of

8 contemporaneity.

9 MR. KAY: We haven't really gone into this in great detail with

10 the witness, as to when, and scrutinised the document and questioned him

11 upon it as to when it actually arose and whether matters were fresh in his

12 mind at the time. I take Your Honour's point that it well may be an issue

13 of contemporaneity here. Notes, of course, can have a long period of time

14 to justify contemporaneity. It's the issue, really, with which I raise

15 the matter to the Court, because it may be unhelpful to the evidence if

16 such material is going to be relied upon.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I mention that, Mr. Kay, because even when the

18 notes do not meet that requirement, with which you're familiar in your

19 system, we sometimes allow witnesses to refresh their memories from notes

20 which are made even subsequent to the event, because ultimately we have to

21 assess the weight that is to be given to the evidence. But I think we'll

22 consult on this.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zatriqi, we will allow you to refer to your notes,

25 but if you can, give your evidence without reference to them, because it's

Page 3813












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3814

1 your evidence we want, not what's written in your notes. But if you need

2 to refresh your memory on a particular point, you can do so.

3 And Ms. Romano, as far as the witnesses are concerned, perhaps the

4 better course would be, in future, that if they want to refer to their

5 notes particularly, then they can ask permission to do so, if they've made

6 notes and brought them along. But on the whole, the witnesses, of course,

7 should give evidence without notes, but simply giving it. So if the

8 Prosecution would take note of that, and in future, if they want to, they

9 perhaps should mention it.

10 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, I just want to clarify that when they

11 come to The Hague, they come with several material accompanied, and the

12 instruction of the Prosecution is in the same lines, that what is

13 important is their evidence. But sometimes, you know, they just come to

14 the Court because they feel afraid of forgetting. It's more of a helpful

15 tool.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, if they want --

17 MS. ROMANO: I will take care.

18 JUDGE MAY: If they want to provide it - if they were made roughly

19 at the time - if they want to refer to it, they can, but they should ask.

20 MS. ROMANO: We'll take care of that.

21 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. It's past the time.

22 Mr. Zatriqi, we're going to adjourn for half an hour. During the

23 adjournment, please remember not to speak to anybody about your evidence

24 until it's over, and that does include members of the Prosecution team.

25 We'll adjourn for half an hour.

Page 3815

1 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 THE ACCUSED [Interpretation] Since you took a break after you

5 conferred about the notes, I would just wish to state that nowhere in the

6 witness's statement, the two written statements he gave, has it been said

7 that he used notes while giving his statement. If he didn't do it then, I

8 don't understand why he would do it now. That goes for other witnesses as

9 well.

10 JUDGE MAY: If you want to ask him about it, you can.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am stating that in the statement,

12 there is no mention of that, because I assume that if the witness had

13 resorted to notes while giving his statement, it would have to be noted by

14 your official. All right.

15 JUDGE MAY: Let's move on.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Yes. So you spoke of the atmosphere, the atmosphere that was

18 hampered by crimes. You mentioned some unresolved killings, murders. My

19 question is: Do you know that these killings were committed by the KLA?

20 A. No. You are wrong. These were not committed by the KLA.

21 Q. How come you know that it wasn't the KLA that did it when you say,

22 no, that it wasn't the KLA? That means that you know that they didn't do

23 it.

24 A. First, don't interrupt me but listen to me. Listen to my answers

25 to the end.

Page 3816

1 JUDGE MAY: Now, listen, Mr. Zatriqi. You must remember you're in

2 a court. And just answer the questions, if you please.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is as I said before, that

4 it was an open secret in Peja, and we knew that this organisation was

5 working in Peja in 1998 and 1999. And at this time, we didn't even dare

6 to go out of our houses. Or when we went out, we did so for very short

7 periods.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And do you know that this rumour about the alleged Black Hand was

10 precisely launched by the KLA?

11 JUDGE MAY: We are really getting a very long way from this case,

12 particularly talking about rumour and the like. Now, can we move on to

13 something which is more relevant?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I refer to rumours because the

15 witness spoke about them. Now let us go on.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You knew people who were in top positions in Pec. Were there many

18 Albanians in top positions in Pec?

19 A. From the time when you came into power, you could number them on

20 the fingers of your hand.

21 Q. All right. I'm asking you, from that period onwards and not only

22 from that period onwards, I'm asking you about 1998 and 1999, do you know

23 Albanians in Pec who were in top positions, who held various offices in

24 government in Pec? Just say yes or no in order to save time.

25 A. In this period 1998, 1999, I don't know of anybody who had a

Page 3817

1 significant position in Peja.

2 Q. Have you heard of the name of Xhafer Gjuka?

3 A. Yes. He was my physical education teacher at grammar school in

4 Peja.

5 Q. Was he head of social services in the municipality of Pec and

6 also, later on, a member of the provisional council of Kosovo and

7 Metohija?

8 A. I didn't know about Xhafer Gjuka's position, but I know that he

9 was involved in a party called JUL or something like that, but I don't

10 know what his position was.

11 Q. He was a member of the leadership of the Yugoslav left, but he

12 held these positions. So you do not know that he was a member of the

13 provisional council and also that he was head of social services in Pec?

14 A. I didn't know that.

15 Q. And do you know of another Albanian, Deme Muhaj, who was deputy

16 head of state security in Pec? Do you know him?

17 A. I knew him as a person, but you've got his surname wrong. It's

18 not Muhaj, but Mujaj.

19 Q. I'm not quite certain, when I read an Albanian name, whether I've

20 pronounced it accurately, but it's important that we have identified him.

21 Do you know of Shaqir Nikqi, Shaqir Nikqi, who was a misdemeanours judge

22 in Pec?

23 A. No, I didn't know him. This is the first time I've heard his

24 name.

25 Q. And do you know Mazllum Avdyli? Who is Mazllum Avdyli?

Page 3818

1 A. I don't remember him.

2 Q. Principal of the school in Pec. And do you know who is Rizah

3 Demaj, principal of the primary school?

4 A. Tell me which primary school, because I don't remember this name.

5 Q. The primary school in Rogovo, near Pec.

6 A. No, I don't remember him. I don't know him.

7 Q. Since you were involved in business, you probably know the name of

8 Fatmir Gashi. He was deputy director of the SDK, the public accounting

9 service in Pec.

10 A. Yes, I know Fatmir Gashi personally. He was a colleague of mine

11 when we worked in the bank. And there was not only Fatmir, but there were

12 many others in the social accounting service.

13 Q. Also Albanians; right?

14 A. I don't understand this comment.

15 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. What is the relevance of all this?

16 What this witness said in his evidence, and the significance of it, is

17 that he was director of a coach company, the coaches of which were taken

18 from him and used, the Prosecution say, to deport refugees; and that he

19 was himself, in March of 1999, when he was in Pec, he was there when there

20 was shelling, and he left in his family car and went to Montenegro. Now,

21 that's what his evidence is about. You're trying to extend it to matters

22 which seem to me, speaking for myself, to be totally irrelevant. What's

23 the relevance of the fact that, even if so, that there may have been some

24 Albanians in some positions in Pec at the time?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the relevance is in the fact

Page 3819

1 that the witness has been claiming that Albanians were in high positions

2 earlier on and that later on their number was a single-digit one. And

3 then also he said just before the war, in 1998, 1999, there weren't any in

4 high positions that he knew of. I have here a list of a great many

5 Albanians who held very significant positions in Pec. He was a director

6 of a company. Pec is not New York City, so he would have to know all

7 these Albanians. The question has to do with the credibility of his

8 statement. When the witness says that there weren't any Albanians in high

9 positions and when he is shown these facts, he would have to admit that,

10 because it was not a single-digit number, it was a double-digit number,

11 and even more than that, including one Albanian, as you heard, who was a

12 member of the government. That's very important here, because the

13 impression is being created that the Albanians had no rights whatsoever.

14 And we see here that in a big town, Pec, a large number of Albanians held

15 very important positions, public offices, administrative jobs, et cetera.

16 That is why it is relevant. If you claim that all of this is irrelevant,

17 well --

18 JUDGE MAY: Even if you were right about that, this Court is

19 concerned with displacement and killings in 1999. Now, some evidence of

20 events before then may of course be relevant, but these seem to me matters

21 of not a great deal of significance, and a lot of the Court's time is

22 being taken up with them, the case of the last witness and now here again

23 with this one. If you've got something to challenge about what the

24 witness said happened in his statement, then you should put it.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the relevance of these

Page 3820

1 questions is also in the fact that these facts fully bring under a

2 question mark the stories about deportations, because these persons in

3 high positions -- I mean, had there been any deportations, these persons

4 in high offices would have had to be engaged, involved in these

5 deportations because they held such important positions. And who would

6 believe that, that Albanians who are part of government in a municipality

7 would organise deportations of Albanians, even if it were to be assumed

8 that the Serbs wanted to do that, which is also not true.

9 JUDGE MAY: Do you challenge the way in which this witness has

10 given an account of leaving for Macedonia? If so, you should put it. And

11 do you challenge that his vehicles were sequestrated? Do you challenge

12 that? If so, you should put it to him. That's the matters with which he

13 can deal and those are the matters which are relevant.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, isn't it clear that I'm

15 challenging it? And I hope that if you carefully read both of his witness

16 statements, you will also be perfectly clear that his very statements

17 challenge that. But we'll show that. Please just tell me how far time

18 you're giving me for this witness so that I could cut my questions short,

19 because obviously I will not be in a position to put all the questions I

20 have for him.

21 JUDGE MAY: You have the usual time for the witness, and so far

22 you've taken up, I should think, 20 minutes of it.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. So I have another 40

24 minutes for him?

25 JUDGE MAY: Something of that order, yes.

Page 3821

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. That is to say, until

2 12.30.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Then I shall briefly scan all of this, and then you're going to

5 tell me whether you know any of these people. Do you know the names of

6 Skender Nuro, director of the company called Zitopromet; Besim Haska,

7 deputy head of the sales inspection in the district; Muhammed Corkadiu,

8 who was president of the municipality of Pec and then head of the planning

9 and analysis department in Pec; Skender Hajdini, head of the personnel

10 department in Pec, that is to say, the person who admitted officials for

11 work and released them; Dr. Drita, who was head of a ward; Fatmir

12 Kurmehaj, also a director of the hospital --

13 JUDGE MAY: Stop.

14 Mr. Zatriqi, what is being suggested is that there were Albanians

15 who were in important positions in Pec. Now, can you help us about that

16 or not?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. All the names mentioned by the

18 accused are people known to me, but I must say these positions cannot be

19 compared with the position of Fatmir Gashi, who is an able economist.

20 There was no way of comparing this with the position of Xhafer Gjuka,

21 because these are absolute opposites. And I don't know much about the

22 inner workings of the municipality because I didn't have much dealings

23 with it.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I don't understand the explanation of these opposites. Xhafer

Page 3822












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Page 3823

1 Gjuka, isn't he an Albanian too?

2 A. Xhafer Gjuka is an Albanian.

3 Q. He was a member of the provisional government of Kosovo. So why

4 would this be in opposition to the other Albanian who was director of the

5 SDK?

6 A. I wasn't aware of Xhafer Gjuka's position, but I didn't know he

7 had such a high position. I knew him as a deputy director in the public

8 accounting service.

9 Q. All right. Tell me, then, all these Albanians whose names I've

10 read out to you, did you know all of them?

11 A. Not all of them. Some of them I did know but as citizens of Peja,

12 as faces. Some of them I knew.

13 Q. Are you trying to say that you didn't know what they did? You

14 don't know what positions they held? Is that your assertion?

15 A. No, I didn't know what jobs they had.

16 Q. All right. I don't want to waste much time. I'm just going to

17 read ten more names of Albanians to you so that you tell me whether you

18 know them. Dr. Midhat Jakupi, head of the orthopaedics department of the

19 city hospital; Ojdaj [phoen] Pepa, the secretary of --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please slow down for the

21 interpreters.

22 JUDGE MAY: Slow down, please.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Adem Grapci, municipal -- Judge of the municipal court in Pec;

25 Shaban Ukaj, coordinator for education in Pec. Claims were always made

Page 3824

1 that Albanians were not being educated, but even the head of education in

2 Pec was an Albanian. Sali Dionka, director of the cooperative in Kucica.

3 Not to mention all of them. There are five directors of cooperatives in

4 villages around Pec, and all of them are Albanians.

5 At the head of the military department in Pec was also an

6 Albanian. That is to say, the lists of military conscripts, call-up

7 papers were sent by Hatixhe Berisha, Ekrem Zara, inspector --

8 JUDGE MAY: Enough. The witness cannot begin to take all this

9 in.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking him --

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zatriqi, you've been asked about a list of names.

12 Can you help about those or not?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of them I know, but I can't

14 know who was in what position. For instance, manager of a cooperative. I

15 was involved in transport and had nothing to do with agriculture. And he

16 could read out a lot of other names, but I wouldn't know what positions

17 they had.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. Do you know of Hatixhe Berisha at least, the military

20 department in Pec? That is to say, military conscripts, their lists,

21 call-up polices for the army, et cetera. He was an ethnic Albanian. Do

22 you know of that?

23 A. No. I don't know anything about him. I completed my military

24 service a long time ago, and I don't know anything about All People's

25 Defence.

Page 3825

1 Q. All right. You were involved in transportation. Do you know the

2 name of Fetih Hoti and Ekrem Zara? Both of them worked precisely as

3 inspectors for transportation in the municipality of Pec. That is to say,

4 your own line of work. Also Albanians.

5 A. Yes, I know him personally. And I know that his authorities were

6 very restricted. He had been inspector for years. And there was another

7 inspector called Antic. And Fetih Hoti had very limited

8 responsibilities.

9 Q. All right. As far as responsibilities are concerned, that's a

10 very relative question. I can't really read all this out to you because

11 it would be pointless, but so far I have read out at least 30 names to you

12 or, rather, positions that were held by Albanians. Doesn't it seem to you

13 that with that structure of positions that were held by Albanians, some

14 government can be involved in the organisation of deportations of

15 Albanians from Pec?

16 JUDGE MAY: It's not a matter for the witness. It's a matter that

17 we'll have to decide.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Do you remember that in the villages around Pec there were local

20 policemen, precisely in Albanian villages, that were elected by the

21 citizens themselves, the local villagers, and who held these positions of

22 local policemen who wore uniforms and who carried weapons? They were

23 selected by the villagers in those respective villages? Do you remember

24 that?

25 A. No. I do not remember this, because in Peja and its environs, I

Page 3826

1 have never come across an Albanian policeman, and I've had contacts with

2 loads of people.

3 Q. And do you remember the name of Haxha Berisha from the village of

4 Krusevac?

5 A. No, I cannot remember this name.

6 Q. He was a local policeman, an Albanian in the village of Krusevac.

7 And what about Gaci Kelmendi? Have you heard of that name?

8 A. No. I have not heard of any name of anybody who, as you allege,

9 was a policeman.

10 Q. He was in the village of Kosoric. What about the name of

11 Bushataj? Bushataj, a local policeman for the Llubeniq and Rausic

12 villages which are right by Pec? He was killed by members of the KLA

13 precisely because he was a policeman. Do you know of that event?

14 A. No. I haven't heard of that.

15 Q. What about a policeman named Nikoliqi for the Dragovan, Milovanic,

16 and Pocesje villages? Do you know about that?

17 A. No. I have not known him. And as you very well know, I lived in

18 Peja, and during 1998, 1999, I did not go through these villages in

19 particular. These names are not known to me.

20 Q. As you were just in Pec, do you know of a single Serb civilian, a

21 policeman or soldier during this period of time, let's say October 1998

22 and the 24th of March, 1999, was killed or abducted by the KLA from the

23 Pec area?

24 A. No, I haven't heard. I haven't heard of that at all.

25 Q. Have you heard of the KLA at all? Did you hear of it while you

Page 3827

1 were in Pec at all?

2 A. Yes, a lot, and I am proud of it.

3 Q. All right. You've given your answer. Now, do you know about the

4 killing -- the killing of children in the Panda Bar in Pec? A boy was

5 killed. He was -- boys were killed, the ages of 17 to 19.

6 A. Yes, I've heard of this incident. And this is one of the

7 questionable murders that occurred in my city.

8 JUDGE MAY: Do you know anything yourself about it directly or is

9 it merely things that you've heard?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are things that were spoken

11 about around Peja and which I've heard of. Can I continue?

12 JUDGE MAY: What's the next question?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Have you heard of Sadriu Komoni?

16 A. No. I don't know him, and I can't remember this name.

17 Q. And do you know what his relations were with the Serbs?

18 A. In my answer, I said that I did not know this person, hence

19 there's no way of knowing what kind of relations he had with the Serbs.

20 Q. And do you know of an Albanian by the name of Thaci Uka?

21 A. No. Haven't heard -- haven't heard of him.

22 Q. And do you know of an Albanian by the name of Bushati Jahu?

23 A. No. I haven't known him.

24 Q. And have you at least heard that Bushati Jahu, as a member of the

25 KLA, killed Thaci Uka? That is something that you must have heard about

Page 3828

1 in Pec.

2 JUDGE MAY: He says he doesn't know him. He doesn't know about

3 these kind of matters. Can we move on to something more relevant?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, everybody in Pec knows what

5 the other person is having for lunch, is cooking for lunch, let alone when

6 somebody kills somebody.

7 JUDGE MAY: Is that true of Pec, or Peja?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not true at all, because

9 Peja is not as small a place as the accused is trying to portray it. In

10 addition to that, we must take into account the restricted movement and

11 the impossibility of having information on everything that is being

12 alleged here.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You claim that there was restricted movement in Pec when these

15 events occurred. Is that right?

16 A. Yes. That is true. We -- our movement was always restricted to

17 three to four hours per day. The rest of the days we stayed indoors.

18 At a certain point in time, we were even unable to venture onto

19 the balcony of my own house, because one of our neighbours advised me to

20 stay indoors, given that snipers were positioned all around and they could

21 put my life in danger. Therefore, I can assert here that our movements

22 were extremely restricted.

23 Q. So your movements were restricted by the fact that your neighbour

24 told you that it was dangerous, not through somebody actually having

25 prevented you from moving around; is that correct? Have I understood you

Page 3829

1 correctly? Yes or no.

2 A. No, I think you got me wrong. What I said -- I said that in

3 addition to our movements being curtailed, we were even unable to venture

4 onto the roofs and balconies of our own houses because of the snipers.

5 Q. That, of course, is not true. But tell me, please: Who

6 restricted your movements? How were your movements restricted and

7 curtailed?

8 A. It is true that nobody came to me personally to tell me that you

9 cannot go out into the city, and so on, but the fact of mysterious

10 killings is reason enough for citizens to curtail their own movements,

11 i.e., to get out when in desperate need and not on every single occasion.

12 Q. All right. My question was: Did anybody restrict your movements

13 by issuing an order of any kind, or decree of any kind, and your answer

14 was no. Let's move on not to lose time.

15 Have you heard of an Albanian by the name of Berisha Zymber?

16 A. No, I haven't heard.

17 Q. So you don't know that he was killed?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you know that the press, radio, and television made public

20 all these killings in Pec? You had a local radio station and were able to

21 watch Radio Television Serbia's programmes as well, and Pristina's

22 programmes, and so on. So does that mean that you weren't kept abreast

23 with the information media?

24 A. I'm certainly not -- I did not follow the information disseminated

25 by this media instilled in Peja. As you very well know, we used to follow

Page 3830

1 other programmes beamed through satellite and so on.

2 Q. So you just followed the television programmes and radio

3 programmes coming from Albania and the Western media; is that it?

4 A. The programmes from Albania, very, very little, but it was mostly

5 CNN and EuroNews and other programmes broadcast from Europe, because that

6 is where we were able to get the truth from, to find out what was

7 happening in our vicinity.

8 Q. So through EuroNews, you got to know what was, in fact, going on

9 in the town in which you lived; is that what you're saying?

10 A. I was not referring to my own city only, but to Kosova at large.

11 These were the programmes which we used to listen to. And I mentioned

12 other outlets as well, if I recall correctly.

13 Q. All right. Via EuroNews and the other media. So you claim that

14 you knew nothing about what was going on in your own town; is that it?

15 A. I didn't say I didn't know anything. I only replied to the

16 questions on the names that you put to me, and what I said is that I had

17 no knowledge. I hadn't heard of any programme that would have broadcast

18 the incidents that you mentioned here.

19 Q. And have you heard of an Albanian called Kuci Skender, Kutsi

20 [phoen] or Kuci [phoen]. I'm not sure how you pronounce the name, but it

21 was Kuci or Kuci Skender?

22 A. No, I don't know this name.

23 Q. What about another Albanian, Adem - or two Albanians - Adem and

24 Bakir Gjuka?

25 A. Can I please have the surname repeated?

Page 3831












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Page 3832

1 Q. Gjuka, Adem and Bakir?

2 A. Yes, I've heard of them, and I've known them personally. These

3 were kidnapped and executed on the 23rd, i.e., they were found dead.

4 JUDGE MAY: On the 23rd of what, Mr. Zatriqi?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 23rd of July, 1998.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. 1998? 1998. They were killed -- kidnapped and killed by the

8 KLA. That's right, the end of July 1998.

9 Now, do you know who --

10 JUDGE MAY: The witness -- you haven't asked a question. You've

11 merely put forward an assertion. It is pointless going on asking this

12 witness about things which he doesn't know.

13 Do you know what happened to those two, for instance?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he just said that they were

15 kidnapped.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but do you know what happened after they were

17 kidnapped?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The brothers Gjuka were taken

19 by uniformed Serbian police, and at about 2100. And eyewitnesses have

20 given an account of this, and I've got it here. They said that they were

21 executed. They were found dead and massacred at the crossroads between

22 the sugar and beer factories, and the workers who went in for the early

23 shift were the ones who found them.

24 JUDGE MAY: Did you speak to any of the witnesses yourself?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They were the ones to give me

Page 3833

1 this account, because I knew not only the witnesses but also the Gjuka

2 brothers and their families, so I spoke to their families and to the

3 witnesses.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You therefore claim that they were not killed by KLA members. You

6 say that the policemen took them off somewhere and massacred them and

7 threw their bodies away. Is that your story?

8 A. Yes. This is the truth.

9 Q. All right. That's quite sufficient by way of an answer.

10 Do you know who Nuredin Zejnullahu was, Zejnullahi or -llahu,

11 Zejnullah Nuredin?

12 A. Yes. He was a medical doctor. I have known him very well. His

13 murder also shook the city of Peja -- rather, shocked.

14 Q. Yes. And his daughter was injured on the occasion slightly. He

15 was killed by the KLA at his very threshold. Is that correct or not?

16 A. You're wrong here. He was killed by masked people on the

17 threshold of his house. They spoke Serbian, and I know this very well.

18 Your assertion that the KLA killed him holds no water.

19 Q. Well, do you know that there was a whole investigation, with

20 evidence as to what had happened? It shocked everybody. He was killed

21 because he worked in the hospital, because he worked like a normal citizen

22 of Serbia, doing his job at his workplace. The whole country knows about

23 that.

24 A. Yes, that's how it is, but you're ignoring the fact that it was

25 your own police who did that. And nobody is disputing the fact that he

Page 3834

1 worked in a hospital. He was a medical doctor. He was doing a job, like

2 every other Albanian who was employed at the hospital. His profession was

3 such that he had to be at the service of the population, and that is how

4 we all knew the late doctor.

5 JUDGE MAY: Did you speak to anybody who witnessed this particular

6 event?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the incident, I spoke to a

8 great many of his colleagues, and one of my relatives is a colleague of

9 Cekos [phoen], and that is how I gathered some information on the

10 incident, and I think they are accurate.

11 JUDGE MAY: And can you tell us when this was?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened around November 1998.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. It happened on the 18th of November, 1998, and his daughter, Aida

15 was a witness, was an eyewitness, and she was lightly injured on the

16 occasion. There are records about all this, and without a doubt, this was

17 a gruesome killing by a group of KLA members.

18 JUDGE MAY: That is what you say. The witness's evidence is

19 otherwise.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. That is what eyewitnesses

21 claim, including the man's own daughter.

22 JUDGE MAY: You can go into the witness stand yourself and give

23 evidence, Mr. Milosevic. At the moment, you're not doing so; you're

24 simply asking questions.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll hurry up and ask a

Page 3835

1 few more questions regarding the witness's statement, because quite

2 obviously you're going to take away the floor in ten minutes' time. So I

3 don't want to be put in this situation, in a situation where I can't get

4 through all my questions, and they have to do with the credibility of the

5 whole statement.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Just tell me this. Give me a yes or no answer to my next few

8 questions, because we haven't got time. Was Pec bombed by NATO? Yes or

9 no.

10 A. Until the 28th of March, it was not. 28th was the day when I was

11 deported.

12 Q. All right. Then answer me this question: How many Serbs are

13 still living in Pec now?

14 A. I don't know. There are some in the surroundings of Peja, but I

15 don't know about the town.

16 Q. All right. Your answer is you don't know. Do you know whether

17 there are any Serbs left in Pec at all? Yes or no.

18 A. There were some at the Peja patriarchate and there were some

19 around the church there, but I don't know otherwise.

20 Q. All right. Is it true that you gave the first statement to the

21 investigators on the 20th of June, 2001?

22 A. That's right. On the 20th of June, I gave my statement.

23 Q. Is it true that your statement was read out to you in Albanian and

24 that you confirmed that it was truthful and given to the best of your

25 recollections and knowledge and signed to that effect by yourself?

Page 3836

1 A. Yes, it was read out, and everything in the statement is based on

2 what I said.

3 Q. Just yes or no, please, to save time: Is it true that you said

4 that you returned to Pec on the 26th of July, 1999, after having

5 previously left Pec on the 28th of March, 1999? Yes or no.

6 A. It's true. I returned to Peja on the 26th.

7 Q. Is it true that on the occasion, you stated that your three

8 coaches were found in the same place - they had allegedly seized them from

9 you on the 23rd of March - but that they had been burnt? Yes or no.

10 A. When I returned, I first went to the place where the buses were

11 parked, and I found them burned and destroyed, not only my buses, but

12 those of my colleagues.

13 Q. All right. But what I was asking you was to give yes or no

14 answers, because they're very short questions.

15 Is it true that your second statement was given to the

16 investigators of this institution seven and a half months later, that is

17 to say, on the 29th of January, 2002?

18 A. That is true, but it's not true that it's the second statement.

19 It's more a supplement to the first statement that I had already given.

20 Q. All right. Did you give this statement to the best of your

21 recollections and knowledge as well?

22 A. I described in the statement things that had happened to me.

23 Q. And tell me, which of these two statements were given to the

24 better portion of your recollections and knowledge, the first one or the

25 second one? What was your recollection better?

Page 3837

1 A. As I said, in the second statement I merely put in some

2 interpretations, because in the first one I said that I knew that my buses

3 were used for deportations, but in the second one I said that I saw with

4 my own eyes that the buses were used for deportations.

5 Q. All right. In the second statement, that is to say the latter

6 statement, you say, "I did not learn that my buses were used for the

7 transportation of the citizens of Pec. In fact, I saw my buses full of

8 people before I was deported from Pec."

9 Is that correct? And that's what it says in your statement, in

10 the short witness statement.

11 A. [Previous translation continues]... statement I said when I was

12 deported, I saw my buses full of citizens who were travelling in my buses

13 but not of their own free will.

14 Q. Tell me what is true. Did you not learn that your coaches were

15 used to transport the citizens of Pec, or when you saw your coaches full

16 of people that you came to learn that they had in fact been used to

17 transport people in Pec? Which of these two statements is correct?

18 A. My buses were confiscated by the police on the 23rd, that is one

19 day before the NATO bombings --

20 Q. We've cleared that up. That's not what I'm asking you. My

21 question is as follows: Did you not learn that your buses were used to

22 transport the citizens of Pec, or when you saw your coaches full of

23 people, you came to realise and became aware of the fact that they had

24 been used to transport people? Yes or no.

25 JUDGE MAY: I don't follow that question. What he says is he saw

Page 3838

1 them full of people. He can't take the matter further than that.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. Then I'll

3 move on.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is it true that on -- the 26th and the 27th of March you spent in

6 the cellar of your house in the Pec district of Sahat Kulla? That's what

7 you say in your statement.

8 A. That's right. It was Friday evening --

9 Q. All right. So you did spend the 26th and 27th of March. And is

10 it true that you left Pec on the 28th of March?

11 A. I was deported on 28th of March. I didn't leave of my own free

12 will.

13 Q. All right. That is your explanation. Left Pec. So on the 26th

14 and 27th of March, you spent in the cellar of your house in Sahat Kulla in

15 Pec, and you left Pec on the 28th of March.

16 So when did you see or learn that your coaches had been used for

17 transporting people? When did you see that? You were in the cellar on

18 the 26th and 27th, and you left Pec on the 28th. So when were you able to

19 see that your buses had been used for transport?

20 A. I left my house on the 27th, and I say in my statement that I

21 spent the night of the 27th and the 28th at my aunt's house. And on the

22 28th, when the police started coming to the houses, I left in my personal

23 car. And when I got out onto the main road, I saw a long convoy of people

24 on the move, and after a few hundred metres, I came across my bus which

25 was full of the people of Peja.

Page 3839

1 Q. All right. Does that mean that you want to convince the person

2 listening to what you're saying here and now that your -- that is to say

3 that the Serbs used your buses, coaches, to deport Albanians, according to

4 your statement, and then that they brought them back, parked them in the

5 same way they had been parked once they had been taken away and then that

6 they were burnt? Is that what you're claiming?

7 A. It's quite true that the population was deported in my buses.

8 Q. Very well.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I am just going to dwell on a few

12 things that Mr. Zatriqi said.

13 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] You already said that on the 28th you were

15 deported. That's what you said just now, that you were deported from

16 Kosovo. You said here something about the 26th. I'm interested in the

17 26th. The 26th of March, you spent it in the basement. On the 27th,

18 there was the shelling that you spoke of, but you were in the basement on

19 the 26th. On the 26th.

20 Could you explain this? I have to say one thing. I know that on

21 that day, indeed, all of Yugoslavia was in basements and cellars, but why

22 were you in the cellar all day on the 26th?

23 A. The night of the 26th, from Friday to Saturday was the most

24 difficult night for me and my family. We spent it there because there was

25 a lot of movement of the police and the army in my neighbourhood. And

Page 3840












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Page 3841

1 especially there had been tanks situated in the hospital yard and

2 schoolyard, which you could see from my window. And at about 2.00 in the

3 morning, about ten metres away from my house, because I was watching this

4 tank - my family was in the cellar, I wasn't - but a green van came out

5 and about eight armed police got out and they started to shoot at my

6 house. They broke the windows and various bits of the house, and then

7 they pointed their barrels down and they started running. And I thought

8 that they were going to kill my family. But fortunately, nothing

9 happened.

10 But then on the Saturday morning -- I must mention that the van

11 that had stopped in front of my house and from which the police had got

12 out and mercilessly shot at my house, that van, around about 6.00 in the

13 morning, when I had gone to the back of the house, I saw this same van

14 parked in the yard of my neighbours, who were Serb.

15 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, you did not mention a word of any of this earlier

16 on. Earlier on, you just said that on the 27th, shooting started in the

17 neighbourhood of Kapeshnica and that that's what you saw with your own

18 eyes. That's what you said then. But what you are talking about today,

19 you never mentioned before.

20 You also said that on the 27th, you saw people moving about, and

21 you say that you didn't know what was happening. Is that true?

22 A. That's right. On the 27th of March, I saw how the Kapeshnica

23 neighbourhood was being shelled. This event that happened during the

24 night in my house, I saw -- the reason -- the fact that Kapeshnica was

25 being bombarded led me to leave my house.

Page 3842

1 Q. You didn't mention that you saw the police. You said that on the

2 next day, you got your family into your car and only then you went out to

3 the main road. Could you explain to the Court your motives? Why did you

4 leave? You did not mention that anybody had influenced you in any way in

5 order for you to leave your house. Can you explain the circumstances

6 under which you decided to leave your house?

7 A. First, my surname is Zatriqi, just to correct you. It seems to me

8 I have adequate reason --

9 Q. I want to apologise.

10 A. I had adequate reason to leave Peja, because my aunt's house was

11 in a neighbourhood called Jarina, and people, the police had begun to

12 arrive, and police had come -- started coming from house to house, giving

13 five-minute ultimatums to leave. And that is the reason why I left my

14 town and aunt's house together with my aunt's family.

15 Q. I shall conclude my questions related to, sir, by saying to you

16 that that's not the way you described it. After what you said in your

17 statement, you explained that at one moment you got into your car. Why

18 didn't you put it that way earlier on, I mean the way you spoke here

19 today?

20 A. I think I did mention these things but rather more briefly, and

21 perhaps this is how you understood it. Because I can't distort things

22 that told -- things that happened to me, and I will always tell it in a

23 straightforward manner.

24 Q. I would just like to ask you about one more thing. In 1998 and

25 1999, before the 25th of March, did you hear at all of any armed conflicts

Page 3843

1 between the army and the KLA in your area?

2 A. I am not sure, but I think that there were clashes, perhaps not --

3 you can't really call them clashes, but Loxhe, a village near Peja, was

4 shelled, but I don't think there were clashes between the KLA and the

5 army, but villages were shelled.

6 Q. And did people, either Albanians or Serbs, come down to Pec in

7 order to seek shelter from these conflicts so that they would not be

8 harmed in any way? Yes or no.

9 A. If you're talking about Loxhe, there was no need to come down to

10 Peja because Loxhe is part of the plain in which Peja is situated. But

11 yes, they did seek shelter.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.

14 MS. ROMANO: Just one matter, if I may.

15 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

16 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, you told the Court that when you came back to Peja,

17 you found not only your bus but those from your colleagues totally

18 destroyed. So how many buses did you see at that time?

19 A. When I came back and found the buses parked, there were about 12

20 other buses. So along with three of my own, there were 15 buses all

21 destroyed and burned.

22 Q. And Mr. Zatriqi, do you know what happened to these buses before,

23 or were they kidnapped or taken the same way as yours?

24 A. The buses were confiscated on the 23rd, and I didn't see them

25 until the 28th, when I was deported. And there was one of them -- there

Page 3844

1 were others belonging to my colleagues. And some of them went to the

2 Albanian border, and others, which I saw with my own eyes, went in the

3 direction of Rozaje.

4 Q. And how do you know that, Mr. Zatriqi? Did you speak with the

5 people, with the owners of the buses?

6 A. I had no need to talk to the owners because I could recognise

7 them. And they were full of town people; women, children, the elderly,

8 who I say were in those buses against their will.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zatriqi.

10 MS. ROMANO: No further questions, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zatriqi, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

12 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, just before we bring the other witness,

16 the other witness will be Mahmut Halimi. The next one is Aferdita

17 Hajrizi, but I believe we still have pending a ruling on the admissibility

18 of the written statement.

19 JUDGE MAY: Do the amicus, any amicus, want to address us on the

20 admissibility under Rule 92 bis of that particular statement? It appears

21 to be admissible. The witness will come for cross-examination.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I say something, Your

23 Honours?

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] On behalf of the amici, this

Page 3845

1 rests within your rights. It is up to you to assess this, and I see no

2 reason why it wouldn't be used possibly.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, do you want to say anything about it?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Then it will be admitted.

6 MS. ROMANO: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution will call Mr. Mahmut

9 Halimi.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd take the declaration, Mr. Halimi.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

17 Examined by Mr. Saxon:

18 Q. Sir, is your name Mahmut Halimi?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you born on the 7th of April in 1954?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Halimi, were you born in the village of Zhabar in the

23 Mitrovica municipality of Kosovo?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On the 24th of August, 2001, did you provide a statement to

Page 3846

1 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor about events that you

2 witnessed and experienced in Kosovo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the 31st of January of this year, 2002, in the town of

5 Mitrovica, Kosovo, were you provided with a copy of the statement that you

6 made on the 24th of August, 2001, in the presence of representatives of

7 the Office of the Prosecutor and a presiding officer appointed by the

8 Registrar of this Tribunal?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And at that time, did you confirm that the copy of the statement

11 provided to you, the statement that was made on the 24th of August, 2001,

12 was true and correct?

13 A. Yes, with a few corrections resulting from some interpretation in

14 the course of the translation.

15 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time I would like to tender

16 Mr. Halimi's statement into evidence.

17 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 114, Your Honours.

18 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, in summary, Mr. Mahmut Halimi received a

19 law degree from the University of Pristina in 1977. He was a judge for

20 many years in Mitrovica and has also maintained his own private law

21 practice.

22 Mr. Halimi's statement describes the different Serb forces in

23 Mitrovica who committed serious crimes prior to the outbreak of the

24 international armed conflict in 1999 and the harassment that he and his

25 family suffered during this period.

Page 3847

1 Mr. Halimi describes the murder of two prominent Kosovo Albanians

2 in Mitrovica, Mr. Latif Berisha and Mr. Agim Harizi, shortly after the

3 NATO bombing campaign began in March 1999.

4 On the 25th of March, Mr. Halimi received an anonymous phone call

5 in the Serbian language. The caller said to him, "You have to escape,

6 because it is your turn. They are killing you at the end."

7 Mr. Halimi describes how he and his family fled his home, first to

8 the village of Zhabar. Shortly after the family fled, their home in

9 Mitrovica was attacked and looted.

10 After two days in Zhabar, members of the KLA told Mr. Halimi that

11 he should leave the village because his presence was endangering the rest

12 of the village. Mr. Halimi spent six nights in the mountains before

13 eventually returning to Zhabar.

14 On the 14th of April, 1999, Serb police and paramilitary forces

15 approached Zhabar. Mr. Halimi and his family fled to the nearby village

16 of Zhabar i Eperm. On the 15th of April, Mr. Halimi and his family

17 observed Serb police and military units pushing approximately 25.000 to

18 30.000 people from neighbourhoods of Mitrovica towards the village of

19 Zhabar.

20 Eventually, Serb forces split this large crowd into two groups.

21 One group was initial sent to a school in the village of Shipol. Several

22 young men were executed during this process. The second group eventually

23 was also sent to Shipol. On the morning of the 16th of April, Mr. Halimi

24 watched as this group of approximately 30.000 people were sent away

25 towards the town of Peja.

Page 3848

1 At about 11.00 on that same morning, Serb forces entered the

2 village where Mr. Halimi and his family had taken shelter, firing their

3 weapons and burning homes. Mr. Halimi and his family attempted to escape

4 from Zhabar i Eperm in an automobile, but their vehicle was seized by Serb

5 soldiers who ordered them to continue on foot. They were directed to walk

6 to the bus station in Mitrovica. The family walked back to the village of

7 Zhabar, where they sought shelter for the night in some empty houses.

8 The following day, 17 April, Mr. Halimi and his brother were able

9 to obtain two automobiles for the transport of their families. They

10 joined a column of vehicles which was repeatedly stopped and robbed by

11 Serb forces. The column eventually travelled from Mitrovica to Klina to

12 Djakovica, then past the city of Prizren and to the border with Albania.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, do you want to start your

14 cross-examination now or would you rather we adjourn before you do?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's up to you.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You can begin your cross-examination now.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Immediately upon graduation, you became a judge

20 at the municipal court, and somewhat later you became a judge at a

21 district court, when you were very young, from what I can see here. Were

22 you the youngest judge at the district court?

23 A. First of all, after finishing my studies, I had an apprenticeship

24 which lasted about a year, according to the laws. After that, I took my

25 exams, and following that, I became a district court judge. It is a fact

Page 3849












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3850

1 that I was one of the youngest judges. At the same time, there were two

2 of my colleagues who graduated at the same time and were of the same age

3 and were accepted at the district court.

4 Q. You say at the beginning of your written statement:

5 "At the beginning of 1982 I became a judge at the district court

6 in Mitrovica. When I was given permission to retire, I ended my career as

7 a judge, in 1985, and then in 1986 I opened my own law office," and so on

8 and so forth.

9 Why did you retire that early, in 1985, practically three years

10 after you became a district court judge in Kosovska Mitrovica? In 1985.

11 You were born in 1954; is that right?

12 A. I did not resign. I did not forward any application. But I had a

13 request to be dismissed from the job of the judge because I wanted to

14 practice as a defence lawyer.

15 Q. You say that you were granted retirement by having submitted an

16 application. So were you retired as a judge of the district court, and

17 did you then become a defence lawyer? Yes? No?

18 A. No, that is not correct. I forwarded an application to be

19 discharged, and with the expiry of the three-month period. And if the

20 assembly which has appointed the judge does not take a decision on it,

21 with the expiry of the three-month period, his mandate comes to an end,

22 and that was the procedure that was applied in my own case.

23 Q. I'm asking you because it says here in your own statement that

24 your own request was granted, your request for retirement. So what it

25 says here in the statement is an inaccurate interpretation of what you

Page 3851

1 said. That's the way I understand it now. Right?

2 A. It may be a misinterpretation resulting from the translation from

3 English into Albanian or the Serbian. The truth is as I mentioned it

4 earlier.

5 Q. All right. You said in your statement that as for the interests

6 of your clients, you could have them realised only through money. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct, in the majority of cases.

9 Q. That means that as a former judge, first of the municipal court

10 and then of the district court, and then as a lawyer, as an attorney, with

11 that kind of career, that you were involved in bribery.

12 JUDGE MAY: I don't follow that. What's the point? What's the

13 question, Mr. Milosevic? What's the question?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I asked, in relation

15 to the witness's statement -- how did he put it here? The interests of

16 his clients, he had them fulfilled through money. And I asked him whether

17 that's correct, and he said that it is correct. And the question --

18 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps we had better get an explanation of the

19 answer, what that means.

20 Now, can you help us, Mr. Halimi --

21 Just a moment. We'll have it clarified.

22 Mr. Halimi, can you help us? What is the position here? What is

23 being said is that you were involved in bribery. Now, can you help us

24 with that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Let me explain very briefly.

Page 3852

1 During the time of Milosevic's regime in Kosovo, justice in Kosovo was

2 bought and sold. It was to be paid for.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So as a lawyer, as an attorney, you were involved in bribery; is

5 that right?

6 A. The only way to secure freedom, somebody's freedom -- it was the

7 only way to secure the freedom of my clients.

8 Q. A short while ago you pointed out that that's the way it was

9 during the Milosevic regime. However, you became an attorney, a lawyer,

10 in 1985, or the beginning of 1986. Is that contradictory to what you've

11 been saying?

12 A. These words that you quoted, I was thinking of the 1990s. I

13 wasn't thinking of 1985.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, let me ask the witness a

15 question. I'm afraid I'm not understanding this whole matter of bribery,

16 and in particular, of the witness's personal involvement as a lawyer in

17 bribery.

18 Can you give us a practical example of how you were involved in

19 this buying of the freedom of your clients? Give us a practical example,

20 because it's not clear to me at all.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was 1994, and there was a

22 person accused of a large quantity of weapons, which, under the chief

23 examination in the Mitrovica district court, the accusation remained

24 concerning three guns. And for this he was sentenced to two years'

25 imprisonment. And to lessen the sentence, in the Serbian Supreme Court,

Page 3853

1 you had to find a connection, and 5.000 marks were paid, and my client was

2 left with a reduced sentence of one year's imprisonment, while for one

3 gun, a long one, that is, an automatic weapon or a military gun, the

4 Mitrovica communal court, and other courts, would pronounce minimum

5 sentences of six to eight months. And I think this says a lot.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE MAY: We'll return to this after the adjournment. It's time

8 to adjourn now until half past 2.00.

9 Mr. Halimi, would you remember, in this adjournment and any others

10 there may be, not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's

11 over.

12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.














Page 3854

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Halimi, before the adjournment you were

3 telling us about the practice of the -- in relation to the inference of

4 money in the judicial system. What I'd like to find out is just how

5 widespread was that practice of bribery?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can freely say that this practice,

7 especially from 1993 onwards, until the end of 1998, was an open secret

8 known to every single citizen of Kosova.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you yourself participated in this practice?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my previous statement, when I

11 mentioned a case in response to a question from the accused, I said 5.000

12 Deutschmarks were given, and this was confirmed by the brother of my own

13 client, and I can responsibly assert here before Your Honours that, in my

14 whole life, in my whole career as a defence lawyer, it only occurred once

15 to me that I had to produce a thousand Deutschmarks to have something done

16 that related to me, and the rest I've heard from other people.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Well, let's continue with that, then. In view of the fact that in

20 your statement, you explained, in very clear terms, that this was the

21 practice, or rather, that that was the practice you engaged in, are you

22 now withdrawing that statement that you previously made by saying that you

23 only did it once? Are you retracting that or do you stand by your

24 statement and said that you had to do your job through money, with the

25 help of money, as you said in your statement?

Page 3855

1 A. It appears you have not understood the answer correctly, so let me

2 clarify, and this will be crystal clear. I said, regarding especially the

3 period from 1993 to 1998, Serbian justice, which decided the fate of the

4 Albanians all, where the life of Albanians was at issue, meant -- and

5 we've often commented with my own colleagues, we'd often say that Serbian

6 justice is on the point of being sold as a commodity on the market.

7 Q. I think that regardless of the harsh terms used, that you can't

8 retract what you said in your statement. Let me quote. It is on page 3,

9 at the beginning of the page, the first paragraph on that page. I'll jump

10 over the unimportant things, although I can take it from the beginning:

11 "I had to find hundreds of ways to keep good relations with the

12 Serb authorities in Mitrovica. I always had to act in the interests of my

13 clients, and the most difficult moments in my professional work was when I

14 realised that nothing but money was the reality. It happened,

15 unfortunately, rather often. I had some difficult times when I had to go

16 back to my clients and tell them that they had to pay because Serb justice

17 was only valid if they were ready to pay."

18 Therefore, your qualifications of Serb justice - we'll come to

19 that later on - but from what I have read out, is it clear to you and

20 everybody following these proceedings that you state, unfortunately, and

21 you do use the word "unfortunately," "it happened rather often."

22 Therefore, we absolutely cannot accept, whether I'm right or not, what you

23 said happened to you just once. Because you weren't answering my

24 question, you were answering Judge Robinson's question and said you gave

25 5.000 Deutschmarks to reduce the sentence for one client. He asked you

Page 3856

1 about one case. You told him of one case and one example, whereas here in

2 your statement you said, "It happened, unfortunately, rather often." And

3 then you go on to say, "I had some difficult times," et cetera, but it did

4 happen rather often. Now, my question is: You engaged in bribery. Is

5 that correct or not?

6 A. I can say partially yes. I had to. That was the only way to sort

7 out the future for my own client.

8 JUDGE MAY: The point which is being made is that you say in your

9 statement: "It happened, unfortunately, rather often." And what you're

10 telling us was that it happened once. Now, can you explain the

11 discrepancy?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I explain those cases, I can

13 probably dwell on this issue for about four hours on end. However, let me

14 reiterate that in the majority of cases -- and let me say in the Supreme

15 Court, in the District Court, throughout Serbia, where I've been defending

16 various parties, in the Supreme Court, being a court of the second

17 instance, and not only me, but also my own Albanian colleagues have seen

18 people before those courts, the Supreme Court of Serbia, and we had to

19 defend -- and we had to defend our own clients. Technical personnel of

20 that very same court were in charge of the procedure on certain matters,

21 and the wheeler-dealer of that same court approached me personally, asking

22 me to give money if I were to sort out the fate of my own client, and that

23 is the message that I conveyed to the family of the client. I told them

24 who they had to go to to sort that out.

25 JUDGE MAY: You explained that. But did this happen once or more

Page 3857

1 than once?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I myself, only once did I

3 have to produce, out of my own pocket, a thousand Deutschmarks.

4 JUDGE MAY: You also say in your statement: "Only in political

5 cases, it was not possible to use bribes." Is that right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct. Because state

7 security, whose members were a party to this procedure, were under strict

8 control of state security, and that's why the situation was different. It

9 was not possible there to pay bribes to have -- to release someone who had

10 been convicted on politically-motivated charges.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Therefore, you engaged in bribery; yes or no.

14 A. I think I gave an answer to this. I don't think I have to reply

15 twice to the same question.

16 Q. Well, the answer is quite obvious. Now, did I understand you

17 correctly? As you yourself said here, you frequently gave money, and once

18 you even gave money out of your own pocket. Now, as you're a lawyer

19 yourself, is it clear to you that it doesn't make any difference whether

20 you gave out your own money or your client's money in a criminal -- in the

21 criminal act of bribery?

22 A. I'm fully aware, and especially if you're aware of the institution

23 of extreme need, that is, when in order to save the future of the freedom

24 of somebody, that in itself is prioritarian [sic] compared to the money.

25 Q. Every criminal, when he perpetrates a crime, gives that same

Page 3858












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3859

1 explanation, that he had to do it in order to achieve a certain goal, a

2 certain end. Now, are you conscious of the fact that the difference

3 between what must necessarily be done and what is done in a legal manner

4 and what must be done and is committed against the law, means the

5 difference between a crime and an honest affair?

6 JUDGE MAY: I don't follow the question. I suppose it could be

7 rephrased in this way:

8 Did you think what you were doing when bribes were paid or

9 arranged was dishonest?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all the time, and I felt very

11 bad about it.

12 JUDGE MAY: And then you can tell us why you did it nonetheless.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said the freedom of a

14 person is sacred. People were being charged with no evidence at all,

15 simply out of ethnicity. When the law on weapons and munitions was

16 passed, if I'm not wrong, in 1991, the only applicable venue was Kosova,

17 and it was only meant and applied against the Albanians.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: If they were being charged as a result of their

19 ethnicity, would that fall into the category of political cases that you

20 said formed the only exception to this practice of bribery?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A criminal political offence, I can

22 freely say here, wasn't constituted, actually. The ultimate aim of the

23 Milosevic regime - and the munitions and the weapons bill was part of it -

24 the Albanians, when the police charged someone with arms possession, an

25 Albanian had to go and try and buy a weapon somewhere in order to show it

Page 3860

1 to the police or otherwise suffer the consequences and be abused on a

2 daily basis by the police.


4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is it clear to you that by quoting the example you picked at

6 random in response to the question posed by Judge Robinson, that you in

7 fact put forward the example of your client, who was accused of possessing

8 large quantities of weapons, in fact? Now, was he being charged for

9 possessing large quantities of weapons under the circumstances that

10 prevailed in Kosovo, and is it clear to you that that too must necessarily

11 have been considered as having a political background, being in possession

12 of large quantities of weapons? So not pistols or hunting rifles or

13 something that someone might buy from someone else, but large quantities

14 of weapons in Kosovo. How, then, if you could not -- if nothing could be

15 done about things of that kind, you were successful in bribing the

16 people? Or perhaps what you said to begin with wasn't true, that is to

17 say that in political crimes you were not able to bribe anyone. So what

18 is the truth?

19 A. Forgive me. I did not understand this question.

20 JUDGE MAY: Try and put the question more shortly.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You said, when quoting the example for Judge Robinson, that your

23 client was accused of being in possession of large quantities of weapons.

24 That's right, isn't it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3861

1 Q. Now, what is the punishment, the sentence, for being caught in

2 possession of large quantities of weapons, according to the law? What

3 would the sentence for that kind of crime be?

4 A. According to provisions of Article 33, paragraph 3, subitem 1 of

5 the bill on weapons and munitions, as it was called at that time, it was

6 possible to sentence someone to up to 15 years in gaol, for possession of

7 over three weapons.

8 Q. And that means that your client, although you said that Albanians

9 were unjustly taken to court, when he possessed large quantities of

10 weapons, he was sentenced to a fifth of that maximum prison sentence,

11 because you said three years, he got three years. Is that right?

12 A. Yes, because I paid with my own money -- his own money.

13 Q. No. You said that he was sentenced to three, and then those three

14 years, by giving bribes, you were able to reduce to one year. That's what

15 you said.

16 A. It seems you didn't understand my answer, or this is your personal

17 view. It was two years and it was reduced to one year by the Supreme

18 Court.

19 JUDGE MAY: That, in fact, was what he said earlier.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

21 Q. So the prison sentence was two years and it was reduced to one

22 year because you paid; is that it?

23 A. Because the client paid, not myself.

24 Q. All right. Because the client paid, through you; is that right?

25 A. Not through me, no. I showed him the connection. I said, "Go to

Page 3862

1 the entrance of the Supreme Court and go to such-and-such a person."

2 Q. All right. You organised this transaction of bribery for him.

3 Now, as you said that you did this because of the ultimate goal of

4 freedom, because freedom was inviolable, did you consider when this client

5 of yours was sentenced to two years, you say, for a criminal act of being

6 in possession of a large quantity of arms, when he could have got 15

7 years, you say that he was unjustly sentenced, when he just got an eighth

8 of the prescribed maximum prison sentence for that crime.

9 A. I mentioned the case in which justice was bought, freedom was

10 bought. I only mentioned one case. I could explain umpteen other cases.

11 I could talk for about four hours, elaborating on this question.

12 Q. All right. During the many years you were in practice, I'm sure

13 that you carried out this criminal act of bribery countless times. I'm

14 not asking you to mention exactly how many times. I'm sure you couldn't

15 do that.

16 JUDGE MAY: You cannot put things like that to a witness without

17 letting him answer.

18 What's suggested is that you were involved in bribery countless

19 times, Mr. Halimi. Is that true or not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, so it is, and there was

21 no escaping it. Because this is what the regime was like. It was

22 impossible to work in any other way in this regime.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. As a lawyer and a former judge, are you aware of how much -- the

25 number, the figures aren't important, but there were quite a considerable

Page 3863

1 number of cases where people were held to account in courts of law -

2 Judges and other lawyers - precisely for having committed the crime of

3 bribery. They were taken to court. The type of crime that you have been

4 speaking about here. Are you aware of that?

5 A. Yes. When the regime sought to cover its own traces, it always

6 managed to find such cases.

7 Q. I don't know what this has to do with the regime and traces, but

8 as you are aware of this: Do you know that for every report made of a

9 judge receiving a bribe, there was a very careful operation put into place

10 by the investigating organs, and do you know that in cases of that kind,

11 the money bills would be marked and that if those marked money bills were

12 found on a judge, they would serve as corpus delicti and the authorities

13 did everything they could to eradicate bribery of this kind and that these

14 cases were taken to court, especially when it involved bribery in courts

15 of law, in legal proceedings?

16 A. To tell the truth, I don't know of such cases, at least not in

17 Kosova. I know of nobody in the office of a judge being discharged for

18 receiving bribes. I've never heard of such a case.

19 Q. Well, your answer is sufficient for me.

20 Now, can you answer the following question: A moment ago, you

21 said that you knew that people were taken to court for having received

22 bribes. Why did you not report a single case, why did you not report a

23 single individual who had in fact received bribes?

24 A. Because I was working in the interests of my client.

25 Q. Thank you for your answers, for these answers of yours. I'm going

Page 3864

1 to move on now. But before I do move on, I should like to ask you to give

2 me just one answer, please, Mr. May, Mr. Robinson, and Mr. Kwon. This

3 witness, especially a lawyer, an attorney, who engages in bribery, can he

4 in any regular court of law be considered a credible witness for what he

5 is testifying to?

6 JUDGE MAY: That will be a matter for us to decide. You can make

7 the point. Not now.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I am --

9 JUDGE MAY: But not now. This isn't the time for speeches.

10 You're supposed to be asking questions. When we come to consider all the

11 evidence, you can make the point.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, every question of mine that

13 you don't like, you call a speech. I asked you a question --

14 JUDGE MAY: It's not for you to ask questions of us. You're

15 supposed to be asking the witness the questions. Now, let's move on.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I answer?

18 JUDGE MAY: You can say something at the end. Let's move on with

19 the examination. Let's go on to something else.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did you purchase from Bulo Seniki - I don't know whether it

23 was in 1997 or 1998, a house, in the northern part of Kosovska Mitrovica?

24 Because, as far as I'm able to read here, you do have a family house in

25 Donji Zhabare and you purchased a house in the northern part of Kosovska

Page 3865

1 Mitrovica in 1997 or 1998 from Seniki Bulo; is that correct?

2 A. It is correct. I bought a house in 1997.

3 Q. Yes. In 1997, you paid 250.000 German marks for that house; is

4 that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where did you get such a large sum of money from?

7 A. Very easily. I inherited this real estate from my father, and

8 from this estate -- probably for about a thousand hectares near the

9 reservoir in Mitrovica, and I sold this and bought the house.

10 Q. All right. What did you say at the time? How did you explain the

11 fact that you bought a house in the Serbian part of Mitrovica? Do I have

12 to remind you of that?

13 A. According to you, it should be interpreted -- you interpreted it

14 as the Serbian part, but it's not the Serbian part. It's a part of

15 Mitrovica. It belongs to all the citizens of Mitrovica. And if you want

16 to know the composition of the area after the detachment of municipality

17 of Zvecan, the remaining proportion of Serbs in Mitrovica was 3.4 per

18 cent. So you can't say that it's the Serbian part of Mitrovica,

19 regardless of the ethnic divisions. It belongs to all the citizens.

20 Q. I'm not asking you this because I dispute the fact that it belongs

21 to all of the citizens, I'm asking you this because of the explanation

22 that you gave. Namely, is it true that at the time when you bought this

23 house in this part of Kosovska Mitrovica, you said that you were doing

24 this in order to have your children raised together with Serbian children

25 and in order to have your children learn to speak Serbian as well as you

Page 3866

1 and your wife did? Is that right or not?

2 A. It seems rather a ridiculous situation here. I didn't say

3 anywhere, to anybody, in any part of my statement that I went to that part

4 of town so that my children could learn Serbian.

5 Q. I'm not saying that this is contained in a statement given to this

6 institution, your statement given to the Tribunal. I'm saying that you

7 said this to a number of people whom you had contact with at the time when

8 you purchased this house and thereafter. So I'm just asking you whether

9 this is true or not. I'm not asking you whether this is contained in your

10 statement given to the Tribunal.

11 A. This is your fabrication and the fabrications of people who are

12 credulous [as interpreted].

13 Q. Very well. I am afraid that you're taking a slippery road now.

14 You said that you were represented a Serbian family that was grateful for

15 your services. Did you have in mind the family by the last name of

16 Mijatovic, Branislav and Suzana?

17 A. Mijatovic, yes.

18 Q. And you were recommended to this family by a very good friend of

19 yours, Dragan Djuric, who is a policeman with the MUP of Serbia; is that

20 true?

21 A. It is a fact.

22 Q. And is it also true that this trial has not been concluded yet and

23 that the members of this family have not been to a hearing yet, and

24 therefore were not in a position to thank you? Is that true or not?

25 A. It's not true. Let me tell you very sincerely, after Suzana

Page 3867












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Page 3868

1 introduced herself to me myself, the wife of Branislav Mijatovic, we met

2 by accident in front of the UNMIK building, and there she confirmed to me

3 the fact that the person who killed their only son in a traffic accident

4 had been condemned to eight months' imprisonment but had still not started

5 his sentence. This was not ten days before I came here. So the judge --

6 a verdict has been given and the sentence has been served, and it is

7 merely waiting to be carried out. So that we don't misunderstand each

8 other, it was his only son. Meanwhile, he has also had a daughter, called

9 Maja, and after the death of his son in a traffic accident, he has another

10 son, so now he has two children.

11 Q. Is it true that you called this friend of yours, Dragan Djuric

12 from Serbian MUP, you called him on the phone from Zhabare, asking him to

13 transfer you to the northern part of Mitrovica?

14 A. I don't understand -- I don't understand the question.

15 Q. Well, the question was quite simple: Did you call your friend

16 Dragan Djuric from Zhabare on the telephone, asking him to transfer you

17 from that place to another area, to the northern part of Kosovska

18 Mitrovica? At that time, his wife answered the phone because he was not

19 at home.

20 A. When do you say? What time are you referring to?

21 Q. I'm referring to the time frame about which you're testifying.

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. Very well.

24 A. I remember I talked once to him, and at that time it was like

25 this: The date after 5th of March, when the entire family of Adem Jashari

Page 3869

1 was killed, I went to this man's office to intervene regarding a case.

2 This is the office of Dragan Djuric. It is a fact that we had very proper

3 relations, he and me, because we are the same generation. However, we

4 were not close friends.

5 Q. Well, I asked you a moment ago whether you were friends with him,

6 and you said that that was true.

7 A. [Previous translation continues]... not answering to that

8 question.

9 Q. Very well.

10 A. I understood it as: Did Dragan Djuric intervene in the case of

11 Mijatovic so that I could represent them in court, and I said yes. I did

12 not say that he had been my friend. We had proper, correct relations

13 between each other. And I said the last time that we spoke was after the

14 5th of March, and that was my last contact with Dragan Djuric. And then

15 he said to me, "Please don't come to my office, because when there is war,

16 there is no friendship. There's no keeping company when there is war."

17 Q. Do you know Ismet Hoxha?

18 A. Ismet Hoxha? Could you help me by telling me where he comes from?

19 Because I know more than one, it appears.

20 Q. Well, I have in mind the one that you represented. He, as a thief

21 and a hooligan, was deported from Germany back to Yugoslavia, and it is

22 the same Ismet Hoxha who, on the 22nd of December, 1997, in the Zeta cafe,

23 killed Hali Trnaca [phoen], called Ollaco [phoen], whose real name was

24 Shabani Javci [phoen]. At the time, there were 400 guests in the cafe,

25 and he shot and emptied two clips of an automatic rifle and then fled from

Page 3870

1 the cafe. This is the Ismet Hoxha that I have in mind, the one who you

2 represented, the one who had been deported as a criminal from Germany back

3 to Yugoslavia and the one who had committed this crime in a cafe where

4 there were 400 other guests. So do you know now which Ismet Hoxha I have

5 in mind?

6 A. His name is not Ismet Hoxha. It's not the one. Ismet Hoxha comes

7 from Vushtrri. He was a member of the KLA in the Cicavica area and he's

8 currently a member of the Kosova protection corps in Mitrovica.

9 Q. Well, this is exactly what I'm referring to. This is the person

10 who is responsible for killing a member of the Security Service, Dejan

11 Prica [phoen]; isn't that right?

12 A. I have no idea. I do not know of this incident. I know Ismet

13 Hoxha very well. I'm not aware of there ever having been such an

14 incident.

15 Q. Don't you know that after that incident, he fled in a vehicle

16 owned by Fatmir, called Guli?

17 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't know about this. Let's move on to some

18 more relevant matters.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Is it your claim that you were not an attorney representing Ismet

21 Hoxha and that you were not an intermediary when he surrendered the rifle

22 that he had at the time? And are you also claiming that he did not engage

23 you as his attorney?

24 A. Ismet Hoxha, no, I'm not aware that he ever fired against anyone

25 at a cafe. He's a man of a very quiet and sociable kind and he's never

Page 3871

1 been abroad. Until 1990 he served as a policeman in Vushtrri and

2 Prishtina. After 1990, when the regime of the accused dismissed Albanian

3 employees, including the policemen, he survived by working at Vushtrri at

4 various honourable manual jobs. And I'm not aware that Ismet Hoxha ever

5 dealt in these kinds of shady things. I'm quite convinced of that.

6 Q. And are you now telling us, by way of this example, that after

7 1990, there were no policemen of Albanian origin and also there were no

8 Albanians working in the state security? Is that what you're trying to

9 tell us?

10 A. After 1990, the number of Albanians who were accepted to work

11 within the interior organs was very small. You could have counted them by

12 the fingers of your hand.

13 Q. Do you know how many hundreds of Albanians, for example, worked in

14 the police force in 1998, let alone 1990 and 1991? Let's just stick to

15 1998. Do you have any idea about this?

16 A. I only know that that number was very small. I do not have an

17 exact figure.

18 Q. All right. Well, you gave us a number that you believe is true,

19 which is almost zero. You said that one could count that by the fingers

20 of one's hand. This is what you're claiming. Did I understand you

21 properly?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Very well. Do you know Fatmir Delic, who is the brother of Ismet

24 Delic? Yes or no, please.

25 A. I know many citizens in Mitrovica. I do know Ismet Delic. Fatmir

Page 3872

1 could be his son; maybe he's too young that's why I don't know him.

2 Q. Is it true that Delic Ismet, together with Ismet Hoxha and Nexha

3 Cubreli, was a member of the KLA?

4 A. I'm not aware of Delic. On Nexha Cubreli and Ismet Hoxha, yes,

5 they were members of the KLA.

6 Q. And is it true that Fatmir's nickname was Gika and that he's

7 wanted by the police in Europe as a drug dealer? Do you know anything

8 about this? He's one of your clients as well. Is that so or not?

9 A. The informers who have passed this information have got it wrong.

10 He's the son of Ismet Delic, a martyr, whose death was marked a few days

11 ago, nicknamed Bika.

12 Q. I didn't understand your answer well. Let me just see what the

13 transcript says. So you're saying that he was killed a few days ago?

14 A. I didn't say that. You are saying that. I was saying that I am

15 proud to remember him as a martyr who fell in 1999, fighting against your

16 own forces.

17 JUDGE MAY: Now, let's move on to some more relevant matters. ,

18 Mr. Milosevic, you've very nearly had your hour in this case. We'll

19 consider how much more - since this is important evidence - how much more,

20 if any, you should have.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We want to make sure this witness finishes

23 today. Because we spent some time on one particular issue, we'll give you

24 until quarter to.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's quite all right.

Page 3873

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Do you know Ismet Osmani, called Culi, who has several companies

3 in the Czech Republic?

4 A. Yes, I know him. He's a cousin of mine.

5 Q. Is it true that he's the chief source for drugs on the route

6 between Germany, Istanbul, and Prague -- Istanbul, Pristina, the Czech

7 Republic and Germany?

8 JUDGE MAY: You can answer that question if you want, but if you

9 don't want to, it seems to me to have absolutely no relevance.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only know that he's German of the

11 club of Racak 1999, chapter 1999 of Mitrovica.

12 THE INTERPRETER: 1989, sorry, of Mitrovica. Correction from the

13 translator.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Do you know Shevqet Dobralluka, called Vinica, who together with

16 his brother Karsil [phoen], whose wife is a Brazilian, together with Culi,

17 deals drugs on the route between Istanbul, Pristina, and Rome?

18 JUDGE MAY: Irrelevant. Move on.

19 No need to answer.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 Q. When you were in Zhabare, the KLA was there; is that right?

23 A. No, there was no KLA at Zhabar. There was a hospital at Zhabar

24 with the wounded people, that is to say, after it started.

25 Q. Yes. And which village did you leave because they asked you to?

Page 3874

1 Which village was it?

2 A. The one I was living in. I think in my statement I said that on

3 the 25th of March I left my house in the northern part of the city and I

4 went to my home village of Zhabar i Ulet, which is about two kilometres

5 from the centre of Mitrovica.

6 Q. But in the summary, we saw that you were asked to leave the

7 village and that, after that, you went into the mountains, further to

8 their request.

9 A. Yes. This happened on the 27th of March of 1999, the second day

10 after I had sought shelter at Zhabar i Poshtem. There were two members

11 came, they were unarmed, they had civilian clothing. They introduced

12 themselves. They identified themselves as members of the KLA and that

13 they had an order to escort me to the mountains of Dermova on Zhabar i

14 Eperm.

15 Q. I said Zhabare. I didn't specify whether it was Gornji or Donji.

16 Therefore, I was imprecise. I was referring to Donji Zhabare. The KLA

17 asked you to leave the village. Why didn't you mention before that they

18 were unarmed, and was it a practice for the KLA members to go about

19 unarmed or were they armed?

20 A. In the majority of cases, they were armed, but there was a

21 specificity to Zhabar in that the whole region of Mitrovica had sought

22 shelter there from the surrounding villages, as well as residents of

23 Mitrovica, and for the sake of protecting the population so that the

24 population would not become a target of police forces, there were no

25 members of the KLA inside the village. There was only the hospital there,

Page 3875

1 where wounded people sought aid.

2 Q. Does that mean -- does what you said mean that the police did not

3 attack unarmed civilians? You have just told us that police did not

4 attack unarmed civilians, and this is the reason why they did not carry

5 arms. Isn't that so?

6 A. I was referring to the care shown by the members of the KLA. As

7 concerns the behaviour of police and military forces as well as the

8 paramilitaries and whatnot, they showed no consideration at all towards

9 anyone.

10 Q. Yes, but you have just explained that the KLA made a decision to

11 go about unarmed in Donja Zhabare in order to avoid being pressured or

12 attacked by the police, and based on that, I conclude that it was a fact

13 that the police did not attack unarmed civilians. Is that so or not?

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if I can simply clarify the record. What

16 the witness said in the English translation was that there were no KLA

17 soldiers present in the village, armed or unarmed, but that two unarmed

18 members of the KLA came to the village on that specific day to speak

19 specifically to that witness. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

21 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. The next question.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not receive a reply to my

23 previous question.

24 JUDGE MAY: It's unnecessary. It was a mere matter of comment.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 3876












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Page 3877

1 Q. When you were leaving Prizren, a soldier of the JNA told you at

2 the time to be cautious when using lights because NATO could bomb you.

3 And did you mainly have your lights turned off after that?

4 A. It was very dark, 18th of April of 1999. It was approximately

5 after 8.00 in the evening. It is true that upon leaving Prizren, a

6 soldier asked us to switch the lights off because of any eventual attacks

7 by NATO, but it was impossible to drive in this kind of darkness, with no

8 lights on at all, so it was -- it was necessary switch them on because it

9 would have been impossible to drive otherwise, and the car -- the car that

10 I was driving was not in a very good condition. So what I had to do is

11 switch the medium-range lights and the back lights -- rear lights, rather.

12 Q. And did the soldiers tell you, as you were going along, not to be

13 afraid and to take care not to go across any mines that had been planted?

14 A. This happened on the 18th of April, when we were crossing the

15 border at Morina, near Prizren. We had stopped in front of the border

16 crossing point, at the building by the bridge, on the Albanian-Kosova

17 border. And they indicated by hand not to go on the left side of the

18 road, because five members of a family from Fushe Kosova had been hit by

19 mines while crossing the day before and had suffered very badly.

20 Q. Is it true that at around 2200 hours on that occasion, you heard a

21 strong explosion and that you thought that NATO was bombing the border?

22 A. Yes. I said sometime around about 8.00 or 8.30, I arrived

23 somewhere near the village of Zhur, because it was a very long convoy. It

24 was a convoy that stretched from Zhur to the border, which must be eight

25 or ten kilometres. And I was at the back of the convoy, at the exit from

Page 3878

1 the village of Zhur. And about 8.30, when we arrived, we stayed in line

2 in that position, and the convoy advanced very slowly. And we didn't know

3 what was happening at the head of the convoy at the border. We were just

4 waiting in line to cross into Albania.

5 And at some time, perhaps after 10.00, sometime round about then,

6 there was an explosion heard. The border was closed and we had no further

7 chance of going forward to see what had happened. That night, we supposed

8 that there had possibly been a NATO attack on this part of the border, but

9 when we passed close to it, we saw a very serious tragedy had taken place,

10 and this is when five members of a family from Fushe Kosova were killed,

11 and there were only fragments left of their own car.

12 Q. Does that mean that they came across a mine?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, why did you tell the group of intellectuals, why did you

15 advise the group of intellectuals from Kosovska Mitrovica not to go to

16 Montenegro?

17 A. Because I knew that they would suffer the fate that I did. I knew

18 that they couldn't pass there without being detected by Serbian military

19 forces. I was with them. They included Dr. Adem Ademi and many other of

20 my friends who are now missing.

21 Q. And how many of them did you meet after everything had passed?

22 You said that there were about 15 of them in the group, as far as I

23 recall. Or how many? How many were there in the group?

24 A. Of that group with whom I stayed, there is not one of them left.

25 None of them are alive.

Page 3879

1 Q. I understood you to say that several of them returned, and a part

2 of them are missing and that their whereabouts is not known.

3 A. I don't know where they are. They have disappeared, while I

4 myself and my friends Adem Nura, a doctor in Mitrovica, and the veteran

5 Rilindja journalist and various other intellectuals decided two days

6 previously to return to Zhabar and to Mitrovica, that part of Tavnik where

7 the situation was now quiet, and they remained there and not one of them

8 -- not one of them has returned to their own homes. They fell in an

9 ambush somewhere.

10 Q. And tell me this: How many members of your own family - I don't

11 just mean your nearest family, that is to say, your wife and children, but

12 your broader family, your relatives on your mother's side and so on - were

13 members of the KLA?

14 A. Not one, because they are all abroad.

15 Q. Let's go back to your statement now. I'm going to quote just one

16 passage from that statement, and it relates to your explanations as to how

17 individual people who wore uniforms - you said "soldiers," I believe, I

18 haven't got the exact word now, and then you say, comma, "members of

19 paramilitary forces," which is not the same thing, is it? - that they

20 would take money, that they would stop you, and so on and so forth.

21 And then there's a paragraph after that, from your statement,

22 which says the following: "They had already moved to the next two cars to

23 loot them." And then this paragraph, and it is on page 14, as far as I

24 can see, and you say: "I saw that from the direction of Djakovica, a

25 white police vehicle was approaching us. It was a Land Rover."

Page 3880

1 It is one, two, three, four, the fourth paragraph:

2 "From the direction of Djakovica, I saw a white Land Rover, a

3 police car, coming towards us. When the paramilitaries saw the police car

4 approaching us, they immediately stopped their activities and jumped into

5 their Opel Calibra and drove away very quickly. The police car did not

6 stop at us but continued towards Prizren."

7 Now, from this paragraph, is it clear that this banditry that

8 you're talking about, and those who took part in it, who were fleeing from

9 the police, shows two things, actually: First, that they were not members

10 of any -- forces of any kind, but just ordinary bandits who were afraid of

11 the police; and second, that the police was in pursuit of bandits of that

12 kind. And is that the conclusion that you, as a lawyer and a previous

13 judge, one-time judge, can draw from that paragraph?

14 A. First, from the uppermost level to the lowest level of the

15 military police structure, you can say that it was all coordinated

16 minutely. If those policemen had wanted to fight crime and the looting

17 of the populous -- now I remember, because it was an Opel Calibra. I

18 remember that these paramilitaries had very, very long rifles. There was

19 one more -- I was the second, the third in line, and the police approached

20 us. And then this Land Rover came and passed close by. If the police had

21 wished to help, they could have done. They saw what happened. But they

22 only parked and observed at a distance of 200 metres. And this was a

23 village near Prizren, more or less the final village before the entrance

24 into Prizren.

25 Q. Well, you're now saying something quite different. From what I

Page 3881

1 just quoted, reading from your statement, the members of what you refer to

2 as paramilitaries, who, according to what you say, went on looting, when

3 they saw that from the direction of Djakovica a white police car was

4 approaching, a Land Rover, in fact, went off very quickly. And you say

5 that "the police car didn't even stop by us but continued along the road

6 to Prizren." So they saw a police car, they fled from the police, and the

7 others went past. Now you say that the police stopped at the parking lot

8 and watched you being mistreated. This is quite the opposite of what you

9 yourself wrote down here in the statement. Is that clear or not?

10 A. You asked me to comment on that, and I did that. Why

11 didn't the police go and chase the car with the people who looted other

12 people? But it continued on its way.

13 Q. How do you know? How do you know they didn't go that way? That's

14 the direction the car took, fleeing in the face of the police vehicle.

15 That's what you yourself say in your statement here.

16 A. No, I didn't say that. I said the two cars passed one another.

17 The car that did the looting went in the direction of Gjakove, whilst the

18 car that came from Gjakove headed towards Prizren.

19 Q. That's not what you said. No. It says here --

20 JUDGE MAY: No. I think we've exhausted this topic. We can see

21 what's said and we've heard the witness's answers.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Then I just have a few

23 more questions.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. As you have been living in Kosovska Mitrovica and are doing the

Page 3882

1 profession that you are doing, I assume you are well acquainted with the

2 situation and circumstances in Mitrovica. Do you happen to remember the

3 first instances of violence and killing committed by the KLA, in the first

4 half of 1998 already, in your area?

5 For example, let me remind you: A bus -- at a bus station, there

6 was an attack on a police patrol at a bus station on the 6th of May, 1998,

7 for instance, and that took place in Mitrovica itself. Policeman Milovan

8 Nikolic was killed on the occasion, and another policeman seriously

9 wounded. His name was Darko Ivac. Jovica Jovic as well. He was another

10 one. And one of the terrorists was killed on the occasion as well,

11 Jashari Arti, from Kosovska Mitrovica. Unfortunately, the policeman

12 succumbed to his wounds as well and died. The man named Ilaz, he died in

13 the same day, in Belgrade, at the medical military academy. So we can

14 say that both of those two policemen were killed. Do you remember that

15 incident?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was that an act of terrorism, this shooting at policemen at a bus

18 stop 50 minutes after midnight?

19 A. I consider this to have been a guerrilla action and as a

20 guerrilla operation of the KLA, as a response to the violence that was

21 carried out against the Albanian population every day, especially in

22 Drenica.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's now a quarter to, which is the time we said

24 we would allot you, which is above the normal time.

25 Mr. Tapuskovic, have you ever questions?

Page 3883

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions for this witness,

2 Your Honours. Thank you.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

4 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll be brief.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:

6 Q. Mr. Halimi, Judge Robinson asked you a question during the

7 cross-examination regarding whether certain cases were political cases or

8 not, but I'm not sure whether your answer really clarified the matter.

9 Could you please, very briefly, help us providing a summary of one or two

10 perhaps prominent or well-known examples of political cases that occurred

11 in Kosovo, brought against Kosovo Albanians during the 1990s. Just one or

12 two examples.

13 A. One example is very well known to the accused here, the case of

14 Asem Vllasi and the Trepce miners, in 1990, when I was a lawyer. I was a

15 defence attorney in the case before the courts. Also in 1996, I defended

16 the group of Avni Klinaku in Prishtina.

17 Q. What was Mr. Linaku charged with -- or Klinaku. I'm sorry.

18 A. Mr. Klinaku was charged with hostile activities against the FRY.

19 Q. And would this be an example of the kind of case that you

20 mentioned that would be controlled by state security forces and so would

21 not be subject to the use of bribes? You need to give a verbal answer.

22 A. That's right. That's right.

23 Q. Moving on. Later on, you mentioned that you had a conversation

24 with the man named Dragan Djuric and that your last contact with

25 Mr. Djuric was after the 5th of March, when Mr. Djuric told you, "Please

Page 3884

1 don't come to my office. There's no keeping company when there is war."

2 My question is: What year was that? March of what year?

3 A. 1999, at the beginning of March. It was the 5th or the 7th of

4 March, 1999, still -- while the NATO attacks had still not begun.

5 MR. SAXON: Thank you. I have no further questions.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Halimi, at one stage during your evidence, your

7 credibility was called into account. You wanted to say something and I

8 stopped you. Now, if you want to say something on that topic, now is your

9 opportunity to do so.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't feel the need. Thank

11 you very much.

12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. That concludes your evidence. Thank you

13 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MAY: Well, Ms. Romano, rather than starting the next

18 witness - or Mr. Saxon - rather than starting the next witness, it's late.

19 We'll adjourn now and start again at 9.00 tomorrow morning. I should say,

20 we will sit between 9.00 and 1.00 tomorrow. We'll stop at 1.00 because

21 there's another case to be heard in the afternoon.

22 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. 9.00 tomorrow morning.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.50 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of April

Page 3885












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Page 3886

1 2002, at 9.00 a.m.