Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4418

1 Tuesday, 7 May 2002

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Page 4442

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10 [Open session]

11 MR. NICE: We will let the Chamber know in due course whether

12 there's any prospect of calling the last witness that we've been

13 considering.

14 I think we're now in open session.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

16 MR. NICE: Wait for the witness for one moment, please. Before

17 Mr. Saxon calls the next witness, there are a couple of administrative

18 things I would like to deal with.

19 First, as the Chamber will no doubt have noted, in his

20 cross-examination yesterday, it's now clear that the defendant was using

21 materials, in particular the interview of Dr. Rugova that had been served

22 on him by the Prosecution, and I can inform the Chamber they were served

23 on him as long ago as January of this year. So he's now making use of and

24 having access to those materials. But it's more important that I remind

25 the Chamber that there were three press articles concerning Dr. Rugova

Page 4443

1 that the Chamber thought it prudent to lay before you, notwithstanding the

2 fact that they haven't been formally dealt with by the accused in

3 cross-examination.

4 Now, those three press articles were three of 39 press articles

5 that were served on him in January. They weren't served as exculpatory

6 under 68. They were served at that time -- he referred to three or four

7 out of 39. They weren't served under 68. They were served at a time when

8 an approach was taken to public material and our obligation to serve

9 public material, which is not a position we currently hold. So he was

10 served more material than it was our duty to serve and that we would

11 currently serve. However, he got the 39 press articles.

12 It may be thought fairer simply to provide the Chamber not just

13 with the four, three or four, but with all 39, because no doubt there was

14 a selection made. We're in the Chamber's hands. We can produce just the

15 four or we can produce all 39 which were the relevant press interviews of

16 the witness.

17 JUDGE MAY: It might be sensible to produce the four rather than

18 produce more paper; for you to have a look at it and see if there are any

19 other articles that you would have produced in re-examination if the

20 witness had been asked about those four.

21 MR. NICE: Yes. That seems very sensible. We'll do that.

22 JUDGE MAY: Then we would -- we will take the bundle when you've

23 got that ready.

24 MR. NICE: Very well, Your Honour. We'll deal with that.

25 The second matter is a couple of additional exhibits that were

Page 4444

1 wanted. There's the constitution of Kosovo which we now have copied. Can

2 that be distributed. I think a number may have already been allocated to

3 it, I'm not sure.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I'm not sure this has been exhibited. We've

5 had the constitution of the FRY, and I think we've had the constitution of

6 Serbia, but I don't think we've had the constitution --

7 MR. NICE: No, we certainly haven't. It may be we had allocated a

8 number to it because I know His Honour Judge Robinson wanted it

9 yesterday and I said I'd produce it, but if not --

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours' this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

11 number 136.

12 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, the accused, I think, was raising the

13 absence of a Serbian version of the education agreement, Exhibit 127. We

14 have now managed to locate a Cyrillic Serbian version of that agreement.

15 May that go as part of 127 rather than have its own number?

16 Your Honour, that's all I desire to raise at the moment, save

17 simply to remind the Chamber that if K4 is available on Thursday, the

18 question of 92 bis statements processed here will then fall for

19 determination with that witness.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is no constitution. It says

22 here Kacanik and Pristina. That is an illegal document brought in by a

23 group of Albanian separatists who could not have had any legal effective

24 value in the system of Serbia and Yugoslavia.

25 JUDGE MAY: We've heard the evidence about it, and it was admitted

Page 4445

1 because it was asked for, but we know what was said about it.

2 Now, can we have a witness, please?

3 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. The Prosecution calls Mr.

4 Fadil Vishi.

5 JUDGE MAY: I should say that before he comes in, we will return

6 the last -- the papers we had in relation to the last witness.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just ask, before the witness

8 walks in? You mentioned a new list of witnesses dated the 2nd or 3rd of

9 May, and the last one I have is dated the 29th of April, and it was my

10 understanding that we would have programmes for at least one week, and now

11 I see that they are changing it yet again. Can we establish the following

12 kind of practice; that we at least know for one week what the witnesses

13 will be?

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That's the -- that should be the practice and

15 is. Occasionally, inevitably, there have to be changes, but they're to be

16 kept to a minimum.

17 Perhaps the Prosecution could see that there is this document of

18 the 2nd of May, if it hasn't been, is served on the accused.

19 MR. SAXON: Yes, we'll do that as soon as we can, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness come in.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to take a seat.

Page 4446

1 WITNESS: FADIL VISHI

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Examined by Mr. Saxon:

4 Q. Sir, is your name Fadil Vishi?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Vishi, were you born on the 1st of November, 1961?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you born in the village of Dubrava in the municipality of

9 Kacanik in Kosovo?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And is the village of Dubrava about eight or nine kilometres to

12 the north-west of the town of Kacanik?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Vishi, in October of 1999, did you give a statement to

15 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor regarding the events that

16 you witnessed and experienced in Kosovo earlier in 1999?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On the 30th of January of this year, in the village of Dubrava in

19 the municipality of Kacanik, were you provided with a copy of the

20 statement that you made in October of 1999 in the presence of

21 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor and a presiding officer

22 appointed by the Registrar?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And at that time, did you attest that the copy provided to you was

25 true and correct?

Page 4447

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Subsequently, during discussions with members of the Office of the

3 Prosecutor, did you indicate that there is an error in your statement?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'm going to read to you the paragraph where that error occurs.

6 It's on page 4, the fifth paragraph of the English version.

7 MR. SAXON: For the benefit of the accused, I believe it's on the

8 top of the last page of the Serbian version.

9 There is a paragraph that says the following: "From the convoy,

10 the soldiers arrested six persons. The others went to Macedonia. Two of

11 these six persons were released a short time after, but the four were sent

12 to Ferizaj, where they were tortured in the police station."

13 Q. Should that sentence actually end with the words, "tortured in the

14 coffee bar called Pranvera," rather than "police station"?

15 A. That's how it should be.

16 Q. All right.

17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, with that correction made on the record,

18 I would now offer that statement into evidence under Rule 92 bis. And I

19 will also, once you have a copy of the statement, I will point out to you

20 where the correction should be made.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked Prosecutor's

22 Exhibit number 137.

23 MR. SAXON: The correction that we just made was on page 4 of the

24 English version, in the middle of the page, the fifth paragraph starting

25 from the top, in the very last sentence. Rather than saying, "police

Page 4448

1 station," it should say, "the coffee bar called Pranvera." And in the

2 Albanian version, it is on page 6, in the middle of the page.

3 Your Honours, Fadil Vishi is a Kosovo Albanian Muslim from the

4 village of Dubrava in the municipality of Kacanik. From about the New

5 Year of 1999, according to his statement, the village of Dubrava was more

6 or less isolated. The population was not allowed to leave the village,

7 and the telephone and electricity was cut off. After awhile, basic

8 supplies became limited, and the villagers were forced to smuggle

9 necessities during the night.

10 On the 25th of May, 1999, Serbian forces surrounded the village of

11 Dubrava. The witness woke up his neighbours, and they all gathered by the

12 village school. Mr. Vishi fled and watched what happened in the village

13 from the woods above. Most of the population left on tractors and

14 trailers and started to drive towards Macedonia. After awhile, the convoy

15 was stopped and six men were arrested.

16 In the evening, the witness could see that his house was burning.

17 Rrahim Vishi and Milaim Vishi were found killed close to the

18 witness's home. About 50 metres from the witnesses home Ali and Xhemail

19 Tusha were found killed.

20 On the following day, 26 May, 1999, in addition, the villagers

21 found the bodies of Hajrush Qorri and his son and daughter. They also

22 found the body of Rexhep Qorri. The body of Sylejman Gurri, who had been

23 captured by VJ soldiers several weeks earlier, was found in the woods

24 about two kilometres from the village.

25 The witness remained in the forest until the following day and

Page 4449

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Page 4450

1 then walked 24 hours to Macedonia.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] In your statement given on the 18th of October,

5 1999, you say literally -- this is on page 1 of the statement, I'm going

6 to quote it: "We lost every freedom. We totally lost our freedom. From

7 last New Year, we were not allowed to leave the Dubrava area. The Serbs

8 took out, cut off the electricity and the telephone and we had no

9 possibility to get information from the outside world. We didn't know

10 anything about what was going on in Kosovo before the KFOR troops came in

11 June 1999."

12 Are these your words? Is that the way it was?

13 A. Very true.

14 Q. When you say that they did not allow you to leave Dubrava from the

15 last New Year, do you mean from the 1st of January, 1999?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That is to say that none of the Albanians from the village - it

18 was a purely Albanian village, right? - could not leave Dubrava all that

19 time; is that right?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. And how was it that the Serbs prevented you from leaving the area

22 of Dubrava?

23 A. They didn't want us to leave the village because -- we didn't want

24 to leave the village because it was our place.

25 Q. So you did not want to leave the village. Did I understand you

Page 4451

1 correctly?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. You say that it was the Serbs who prevented you from leaving the

4 Dubrava area. So what is correct; did the Serbs prevent you from leaving

5 the Dubrava area or was it you who did not want to leave the Dubrava area?

6 A. Even if we'd wanted to leave, we didn't have anywhere to go

7 because the entire village was encircled on all sides by military forces,

8 by Serbian military and police forces. And that's what the situation was

9 like.

10 Q. Did somebody tell you that you were not allowed to leave the

11 Dubrava area?

12 A. We had no kind of contact with the Serbian forces.

13 Q. Well, how did you see them, then, when you didn't have any kind of

14 contact?

15 A. We understood that the Serbian forces were somewhere one kilometre

16 from us, and they were stationed at the factory in Silkapor, and they

17 moved on the road that leads to the border and to Skopje and, on the other

18 side, on the road to Tetovo. And there were forces positioned in what are

19 called the Sharr mountains.

20 Q. All right. That means that the forces were facing the border with

21 Macedonia; is that right?

22 A. They had nothing to face up to on the border because nothing

23 happened on the border. They were aimed against the populous.

24 Q. But you spent all of two months, as you had put it, in their

25 immediate vicinity, and they didn't do anything to you. Is that right or

Page 4452

1 is that not right?

2 A. It's not quite like that, because several times we were

3 maltreated. They provoked us in various ways. And on the 12th of March,

4 they shelled from the Silkapor factory, aiming at our village and at a

5 part of the woods where they damaged the house of an Albanian.

6 Q. And how was it that they maltreated you, when you said only a

7 minute ago that you did not have any contact with them whatsoever for all

8 of two months?

9 A. I repeat, we didn't have any contact, but they communicated with

10 us in their own way, and they had their own way of doing things, and with

11 their military vehicles and their equipment. They did what they wanted.

12 Q. This is not clear to me. You did not have any contact. That

13 means that you didn't have any contact with them, and they didn't have any

14 contact with you. So then how did they communicate with you in their own

15 special way?

16 A. I didn't say that we communicated, but we were surrounded by

17 Serbian forces, and we didn't dare leave the village. But they shelled

18 us, shelled our village on the 12th of March, and a stretch of the woods

19 where there were some houses.

20 Q. As for this shelling on the 12th of March, why did you say nothing

21 about it in your statement? You mentioned that something happened on the

22 25th of May but not in March.

23 A. In my statement, I spoke specifically about the kidnapping of

24 various people that was committed by your forces, the kidnapping of three

25 people. These forces kidnapped three people.

Page 4453

1 Q. Please. Please. First you say that you had no contact during the

2 first two months, and now -- that is to say, from the New Year onwards, as

3 you had put it, from the 1st of January, 1999. And now you are

4 introducing yet a new piece of information, that you were shelled by them

5 on the 12th of March. Please think about this. What is the truth out of

6 the two? Because both cannot be true.

7 JUDGE MAY: That is -- that is not a fair comment. The comment

8 which you make is that they -- there is nothing in the statement about the

9 shelling of the 12th of March, and the witness said, in answer to that,

10 that he spoke specifically about the kidnapping of various people and that

11 that was what his statement was concerned with. So to say there's --

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon? But now during

13 the examination-in-chief, he says things that were not dealt with in his

14 statement, and he certainly would have had to have included that in the

15 statement had this actually have happened. So that should be clear.

16 JUDGE MAY: Why -- Mr. Vishi, since the point is made, why did you

17 not include this incident of the 12th of March in your statement?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought of including only the part

19 of my statement which was related to kidnapping and the offensive in which

20 these were killed, while there were -- there are other witnesses who can

21 testify to everything else that happened.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. When you say that you thought that you should include only the

24 part of your statement that was related to kidnapping, does that mean that

25 you had given a broader statement and that this particular statement is

Page 4454

1 only a part of that longer statement?

2 A. My statement, which is in front of us, is mostly about the

3 kidnapping and the killing of these people and the course of the offensive

4 against the village on the 25th of May.

5 Q. Is that your comprehensive statement then, not only a part of it?

6 A. Excuse me, I don't understand what you mean by that.

7 JUDGE MAY: To put it more simply: Did you make any other

8 statement, or is this the only one that you made?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This statement which I've prepared

10 for you here is about the kidnapping and the 25th of May.

11 JUDGE MAY: The question is: Did you make any other statement?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. All right. When was it that Serbs, as you had put it, cut off

15 your electricity and all communications?

16 A. From the beginning of 1999, we were without all these things.

17 Q. All right. So from that moment, from the beginning of 1999 until

18 June, your village had no electricity; right? And there were no

19 exceptions to that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It is your claim that the soldiers from the Sharr mountains were

22 deployed in such a way that they were able to see every little move that

23 you'd make?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. How far away were they from you? They were on Sharr, on the

Page 4455

1 mountain of Sharr. So how far away was that?

2 A. The truth is that we didn't go deep into the mountains. It was --

3 it was only about four kilometres away where they were positioned. Every

4 day they passed in front of the village, between two roads that lead to

5 Skopje and Tetovo, and were able to see everything.

6 Q. When you say every move that you'd make, are you referring to the

7 villagers, to all the inhabitants of that village when you say "you"?

8 A. I'm talking about the army and the police that you led.

9 Q. I'm asking you about what you said, that from there they could see

10 every move you'd make, you. Every move you would make. When you say

11 every move that you would make, is the "you" the villagers?

12 A. I'm talking about the Serbian military and police forces.

13 Q. All right. And is it correct what you said, that from these

14 positions, they could stop anyone who would be coming to that area and

15 leaving it? Is that your assertion?

16 A. I said that from that time, we never moved from the village.

17 Q. But you say that they could stop everyone, anyone who would want

18 to leave the village or come into the village. That was your assertion.

19 A. If we had gone out, that's the sort of thing they would have done,

20 from my experience of other places. But we didn't go out.

21 Q. And what do you mean that from a four-kilometre distance, as you

22 had put it - you say that that's how far away they were from you - that

23 they could stop anyone who would want to come into the village or get out

24 of the village?

25 A. I said the distance where they were positioned was four kilometres

Page 4456

1 away, but their movements brought us -- brought them closer than a hundred

2 metres along the roads going to Skopje and Tetovo and from the factory at

3 Silkapor, which is -- which is not more than one kilometre away, as the

4 crow flies, from our village. The army was positioned with tanks all this

5 time, pointing towards our village.

6 Q. However, you claim that after the New Year, due to a shortage of

7 supplies, the villagers started going out during the night, going

8 shopping, and smuggling goods. Is that correct or not?

9 A. The goods were brought by various people. And when these goods

10 were brought, there were unfortunate incidents such as the kidnapping of

11 three persons on the 5th of May.

12 Q. Well, tell me, then, how is it possible that people go out

13 shopping, that they come back to the village and all the rest you've said,

14 when you say before that that the Serbs prevented you from moving outside

15 the village or coming back into the village?

16 A. I said before that we didn't leave the village, but -- but these

17 things like groceries were brought by somebody called Ramadan Lami, who

18 later, with his son, was kidnapped from his own home. And Ramadan Lami's

19 body was found near the Silkapor factory. It was totally decomposed.

20 JUDGE MAY: Can you just concentrate on the questions, and we'll

21 get on more quickly.

22 The point -- the point that was being made is if it was right that

23 the Serb forces had surrounded the village so that people couldn't get in

24 and out, how was it possible for these goods, these groceries, to be

25 brought in? That's the question. Perhaps you can help us as to that.

Page 4457

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Page 4458

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is quite true. The person who

2 brought these groceries lived in a village outside Dubrava called Kacanik

3 i Vjeter where there were Serbian families also living, but under what

4 agreement he was able to work, we don't know.

5 Finally, he himself was killed.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. In your statement, you used the word "smuggling"; isn't that

8 right?

9 A. We don't know how he brought these things, but he did bring these

10 things. How he did it, only he knew.

11 Q. I am asking you whether you used the word "smuggling" in your

12 statement. Isn't that right?

13 A. This is a kind of trade which he was involved in.

14 Q. But did you use the word "smuggling" in your statement when

15 speaking about him because that's what he was involved in?

16 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy of his statement.

17 Just a moment, Mr. Vishi. We'll have a copy of the statement and

18 you can see it. Have you got it? He's got one.

19 Well, Mr. Vishi, have a look at the first page, and in the

20 English, seven paragraphs -- the seventh paragraph. It says: "The

21 situation for food and other needed goods got worse after New Year, and

22 the local people started smuggling goods into the villages from the

23 outside."

24 Can you find that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 4459

1 JUDGE MAY: What I think -- what I think you're being asked is:

2 What did you mean by "smuggling" in the statement?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is in the sense that in some

4 cases -- that mainly groceries were brought by the above-mentioned person.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Yes. But why did you call it smuggling? What else did he bring

7 in, apart from the groceries? You said foodstuffs and other goods. What

8 were the "other goods"?

9 A. I didn't call it contraband, but I said that he went in for trade.

10 He brought these things, and he sold them in the village, because he

11 didn't belong to our village.

12 Q. All right. But according to what you wrote in your statement,

13 does that mean that this man, Ramadan Lami, was a smuggler, in fact?

14 A. I can't say that he went in for contraband, because in the end, he

15 himself suffered badly, suffered the consequences.

16 Q. You're talking about an attack on the village after which, as you

17 say, the disintegrated body of Ramadan Lami was found by the villagers.

18 Decomposed body. Is that right?

19 A. That's right. His body was found after the offensive against the

20 village of Dubrava on 25th of May. Several friends of mine found his body

21 and took it away and buried him in his own village of Kacanik i Vjeter.

22 Q. And how many days later was the body found after the attack on

23 Dubrava?

24 A. His body was found three or four days later.

25 Q. Does that mean that before that attack, the attack that you're

Page 4460

1 talking about, that he died before the attack?

2 A. That's right, because Ramadan Lami, after 5th of May, when the

3 Serbian military and police forces kidnapped three people, he no longer

4 came to our village. His -- only his body was found after 25th of May.

5 Nobody can know when exactly he was killed except for your forces under

6 your leadership.

7 Q. And what makes you assume that he was killed by our forces?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Well, could he perhaps have been killed by somebody who wanted to

10 loot him because he was a smuggler? Was there that possibility too, that

11 somebody wanted to steal the goods from him?

12 A. I don't think so, because no Albanian could penetrate there

13 because, as I said, military forces had been deployed there for quite a

14 long time. This is the truth.

15 Q. Yes, but he wasn't found dead where the soldiers were deployed.

16 He was found elsewhere.

17 A. He was not found elsewhere. He was found near the Silkapor

18 factory, exactly where the soldiers were stationed.

19 Q. What do you mean when you say "near"? How near?

20 A. He was exactly in the place where the forces were positioned.

21 Q. That means that you assume that our forces had killed him and left

22 his body to decompose there for several weeks in that place where it was

23 found; is that right?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. All right. And who attacked your village and when?

Page 4461

1 A. Our village was attacked on the 25th of May, at about 3.30 in the

2 morning. The village was attacked by Serb military and police forces.

3 From all sides, the village was cut off.

4 Q. The village was cut off from all sides, you say. And who did the

5 Serbs attack from all sides in your village?

6 A. As I said, at about 3.30 in the morning, we had some guards, local

7 people who were unarmed, who were keeping vigil of the village. They

8 informed us that the village was encircled. And right away, and me

9 personally, along with some other friends, we informed our co-villagers of

10 the fact that we were encircled. We came to the -- we agreed that the

11 villagers should meet in some place, gather there and see what we could do

12 to go over to Macedonia out of fear that something else occurred in other

13 places where the whole population was massacred.

14 Q. And you then started along the road to Macedonia; is that right?

15 A. Not me personally, but people got on tractors, trailers, whatever

16 they had, men, women, and children, and set out. We stopped for awhile on

17 the road, and then they were ordered that persons from 18 to 60 should

18 stay behind in the village. And then the convoy was allowed to continue.

19 But after another kilometre of journey --

20 Q. All right. We'll come to that later on. That's not what I was

21 asking you now. But let's go back to the events of, as you say, the 5th

22 of May.

23 On that evening, you set off towards the main road to buy some

24 cigarettes; is that right?

25 A. Yes, that's right. I didn't go to the main road, but I went near

Page 4462

1 Lepence river.

2 Q. To buy some cigarettes?

3 A. I went to the house of someone called Ramush Dogani, to ask him to

4 bring me some cigarettes.

5 Q. All right. What time was that?

6 A. It was around 9.00.

7 Q. In the evening or in the morning?

8 A. In the morning. In the morning.

9 Q. And where were you coming from?

10 A. I was coming from my own house.

11 Q. But as I've just understood you, you didn't go to buy the

12 cigarettes from Lami but from Ramush Dogani; is that right?

13 A. Yes. I went to Ramush Dogani to ask him that when Lami comes with

14 his goods, he should set aside for me these cigarettes.

15 Q. But you said that you reserved two kilogrammes of cigarettes.

16 A. It is wrong, because I wanted to say two stacks of cigarettes,

17 cartons of cigarettes.

18 Q. It says here two kilogrammes.

19 A. It may be a mistake.

20 Q. Well, your statement was read back to you, and you were asked a

21 moment ago by the Prosecutor whether everything that is said in the

22 statement is correct, and you didn't indicate that that was a mistake of

23 any kind.

24 A. I don't consider it any big mistake.

25 Q. Well, if it were two kilogrammes, I would have to ask you who you

Page 4463

1 needed two kilogrammes of cigarettes for.

2 JUDGE MAY: Well, he says it was two cartons. So let's move on.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Tell me, who is Sylejman Gurri?

6 A. Sylejman Gurri is the son-in-law of a cousin of mine.

7 Q. Is he from Dubrava?

8 A. He's not from Dubrava. He's from Nik village.

9 Q. What did Sylejman Gurri do?

10 A. Sylejman Gurri, he was a sick person. He didn't do anything.

11 Q. You said he was together with two people whom you didn't know. Is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. And those two people weren't from Dubrava; right?

15 A. No, they weren't from Dubrava. They were from Biqefc village.

16 Q. From which village?

17 A. Biqefc.

18 Q. They were two men, is that right, two males?

19 A. They were two young men, my age.

20 Q. Were they armed?

21 A. Absolutely not.

22 Q. And you saw three people wearing uniforms arresting Sylejman; is

23 that right?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. That's what you saw with your own eyes; is that right? You saw

Page 4464

1 him actually being arrested?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Did anybody else see that take place?

4 A. There were two other persons who were with me who saw it.

5 Q. What are their names?

6 A. I said earlier I don't know their names.

7 Q. All right. Let's go back to what we were saying. You set out on

8 the 25th of May, when the soldiers, as you say, encircled the village,

9 surrounded the village, and you said that you personally woke up everybody

10 in the neighbourhood and told them to get their tractors and set out for

11 the Macedonian border; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Did they listen to you? Did they do what you said?

14 A. Yes, they did.

15 Q. What kind of authority did you have among those people for them to

16 adhere to what you said straight away?

17 A. I was the leader of the village.

18 Q. So you were the leader of the village, the elder; is that right?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Did you take part in the KLA?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you help the KLA?

23 A. We have supported it.

24 Q. Why did you tell the people to leave the village and go to

25 Macedonia?

Page 4465

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Page 4466

1 A. We told them first to get together at the school of the village

2 and then, after talking this thing over all together, they all agreed that

3 the best choice for us - for them - would be to leave.

4 Q. All right. And why weren't you in the convoy but, as you say,

5 with a friend you were watching from the woods from a considerable height

6 and seeing what was going on?

7 A. Yes. But if I were -- if I were part of the convoy, I wouldn't be

8 here today to testify to what I'm saying.

9 Q. And which six people from the convoy were arrested by the police?

10 Do you know their names?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. You claim that two were let go, and the four others were taken

13 away, and according to the correction you made, to the coffee bar. First

14 of all you said to the police station, and then you said that it was in

15 fact the coffee bar. So why would the police take them off to the coffee

16 bar?

17 A. Two persons were let go after awhile because they were of a young

18 age, whereas the others, they didn't let them go. And they took them to

19 Ferizaj, to a cellar of a coffee bar, where they maltreated them in most

20 various ways.

21 Q. And what happened to them?

22 A. Then on 29th of May, they released them from that place.

23 Q. So they released them four days later. Is that it?

24 A. Yes, after a lot of maltreatment.

25 Q. All right. Who did you stay in the forests with?

Page 4467

1 A. I was with a cousin of mine.

2 Q. And you say that on that day, in the evening, as you said, you

3 noticed that your house was on fire. Is that right, that that's when you

4 noticed this?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then you say that the people who tried to put out the fire --

7 so this was on the 26th of May, was it, is that right? -- that you noticed

8 the bodies of Muharrem and Rrahim Vishi; is that right?

9 A. Milaim Vishi and Rrahim Vishi are their names.

10 Q. How come they were in your yard?

11 A. On the 25th of May -- excuse me. On the 5th of May, half an hour

12 before Sylejman Gurri was kidnapped, these two persons were also

13 kidnapped, as many eyewitnesses said. And up to the 25th of May, nobody

14 knew anything of their whereabouts.

15 Q. All right. Well, that's precisely why I'm asking you, because

16 that's what it says in your statement. In your yard, on the 26th of May,

17 when you say they disappeared on the 5th of May. So for a full 20 days.

18 And then 20 days later, they appeared, dead, in your yard.

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Were they members of the KLA?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So they disappeared on the 5th and turned up on the 25th in your

23 yard, dead; right?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. Were there any members of the KLA in your place at all?

Page 4468

1 A. No, there weren't.

2 Q. Is it true that the headquarters of the so-called 162nd Kacanik

3 Brigade were located in your village? Is that right or not?

4 A. That is not true. The headquarters was stationed, the army

5 existed, but not there in the mountains, a long way from the village. And

6 it was not in that territory that belonged to Dubrava.

7 Q. How far from the village?

8 A. Three kilometres.

9 Q. So nearer than the army was. The army, you said, was at four

10 kilometres distance.

11 Now, the two men that you said disappeared on the 5th of May, did

12 they go to join them on the 5th of May?

13 A. This happened in other place -- in the other place of the village.

14 The men who were kidnapped were kidnapped on the road that leads to

15 Skopje.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. Where your army was situated in the western part of the village.

18 Q. All right. All right. That's clear.

19 Now, Ibush Vishi from Dubrava, is he a cousin of yours?

20 A. Yes, he is.

21 Q. And do you know Ahmet and Agim Vishi, also from Dubrava?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was Ibush Vishi the commander of the brigade and Ahmet his

24 deputy? Yes or no.

25 A. Ibush Vishi, during that time, was not there; he was in Albania.

Page 4469

1 Q. I'm not asking you where he was at that time, but was he the

2 commander of that brigade and Ahmet his deputy? Yes or no.

3 A. No.

4 Q. And what about Agim? Was he a member of the so-called Hochstab of

5 the 62nd Brigade? Yes or no.

6 A. No, he was not.

7 Q. And on the 25th of May, when the convoy was set up, did you

8 transfer an order by someone to the people to leave the village? Yes or

9 no. Were you conveying an order?

10 A. No. We received orders from no one. But we did that because of

11 fear. Knowing what had happened in other villages, the population decided

12 to flee the country, the place.

13 Q. All right. That's sufficiently clear. I don't want to lose any

14 more time, waste any more time with this witness. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff?

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have only two matters, Your Honour.

17 Questioned by Mr. Wladimiroff:

18 Q. Witness, you say that you supported the KLA. In which way? What

19 support did you provide?

20 A. I supported the KLA morally.

21 Q. And on top of that, also materially?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you receive any information from the KLA, as village leader?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you pass any information to the KLA in your role as village

Page 4470

1 leader? For example, on the arrival of Serb troops?

2 A. Only after the population left to Macedonia.

3 Q. Right. The other thing I want to clarify is you adjusted your

4 statement by saying that out of these six persons that were arrested, four

5 of them were sent to Ferizaj where they were tortured in a coffee bar. Do

6 you remember that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How do you know?

9 A. We know because I saw them when they were separated from the

10 convoy.

11 Q. I understand that. But were you present at the coffee bar?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That's all I ask.

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Vishi, one question: Could you clarify the

16 meaning of what you said in your statement? Could you look at your

17 statement. It's in the fourth paragraph of the first page.

18 "We totally lost our freedom. From last New Year, we are not

19 allowed to leave the Dubrava area."

20 Have you found it? "... we are not allowed to leave the Dubrava

21 area."

22 In the Albanian language, it seems to be the third sentence of the

23 fourth paragraph.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I found it.

25 JUDGE KWON: Did you hear from Serb forces not to leave the

Page 4471

1 village in a specific language? What do you mean by you are not allowed

2 to leave the village? They ordered you to stay in the village? What's

3 the meaning of that sentence?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't order us because we

5 didn't have contact with them, but we didn't dare leave the village out of

6 fear.

7 JUDGE KWON: Okay. Thank you.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:

9 Q. Mr. Vishi, a moment ago Mr. Wladimiroff asked you whether you were

10 present in the coffee bar when the four men from your village were held

11 there, and your answer was no. You said, on cross-examination, that these

12 men were released on the 29th of May. Following their release on the 29th

13 of May, did you have occasion to speak with one or more of these men who

14 had been held in the coffee bar?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall the name or names of these men?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What were their names?

19 A. One was Emrush Dullovi. There was Naser Gurri. There was Nebi

20 Hajdari, and there was Isuf Malsiu.

21 Q. And what did these men tell you about the treatment they had

22 received when they were held in coffee bar?

23 A. They told me that they were mistreated in the harshest way. They

24 were beaten to the extent, and electricity was used on them. And they

25 said that they laid all that time in the blood of the people who had been

Page 4472

1 in that cellar.

2 Q. Did these men tell you who had mistreated them?

3 A. They didn't know them.

4 Q. Let's go back to the 5th of May. You described in your

5 cross-examination how you saw three men wearing uniforms arresting, as you

6 put it, Sylejman Gurri. Were you able to recognise the uniforms worn by

7 these three men?

8 A. We saw their uniforms. They were camouflage uniforms. They

9 didn't have caps. They had automatic rifles in their hands. One of them

10 was tall, thin, pale, and light-coloured fair and face, everything.

11 Q. Did you at that time associate the uniforms worn by those men with

12 a particular force?

13 A. I only saw them for a moment, and we merely saw that they were

14 military uniforms, camouflage uniforms, as I said.

15 Q. Could you hear if these men who were arresting Sylejman Gurri said

16 anything to Sylejman Gurri?

17 A. On the moment when they came out into the road where they were

18 stationed, they jumped up from three different places and ordered Sylejman

19 Gurri to stop and to put his hands up.

20 Q. What language did these three men in uniform speak at that time?

21 A. They spoke Serbian.

22 Q. And you understand the Serbian language?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'm going to change the subject now. On cross-examination, you

25 were asked some questions about the attack on your village on the 25th of

Page 4473

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Page 4474

1 May, and the accused asked you who did the Serbs attack in your village,

2 and I'd like to explore that theme a little bit with you.

3 Following the attack on your village, to your knowledge was any

4 video made of any persons killed on the 25th of May in Dubrava?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When was that video made?

7 A. On the 26th of May.

8 Q. Who was that video made by?

9 A. It was made by a cousin of mine.

10 Q. What is the name of your cousin who made that video?

11 A. Fahri Vishi.

12 Q. And subsequently, has Fahri Vishi given that videotape to you?

13 A. I asked him to give me this evidence.

14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, we have a copy of this video and it's

15 with the members of the audio-visual department, and I would like to

16 play --

17 JUDGE MAY: Well, how does it arise from cross-examination?

18 MR. SAXON: The accused asked this witness who the Serbs attacked,

19 and on this video, we will see the bodies of some of the people who died

20 in that attack.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MAY: No. We're not going to admit it now.

23 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour. I have nothing further.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vishi, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

25 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

Page 4475

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

6 THE ACCUSED: Mr. May, may I ask you something?

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I got this list of witnesses dated

9 the 2nd of May. It doesn't differ in any way from the list dated 29th of

10 April. However, we heard a short while ago that they want to call Witness

11 K4 the day after tomorrow, and that date had been fixed for the 15th of

12 May. I assume that when we have three or four witnesses a day, it is

13 quite clear that I cannot read 10 or 15 witnesses in advance because that

14 is totally impossible. Therefore, I think that particularly these fixed

15 witnesses should not be changed, that they should not make these changes

16 at such short notice and calling them in advance. According to this list

17 dated the 29th of April, he was planned for the 15th of May. And these

18 are fixed witnesses.

19 JUDGE MAY: We will take this up with the Prosecution in due

20 course because this isn't the only case of this change.

21 Yes. Perhaps, Ms. Romano, you could pass that on to Mr. Nice,

22 that we would like to discuss with him, if he can come tomorrow sometime,

23 this business of the changes of the timetabling.

24 MS. ROMANO: Yes, Your Honour. I think that Mr. Nice will come at

25 the end of the session for other matters also, and he will be able to

Page 4476

1 address this.

2 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll have the next witness.

3 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution calls Florim Krasniqi.

4 Your Honours, in order to help with the testimony, the witness

5 will testify about the area of Urosevac, and particularly the city of

6 Mirosavlje. And this is the Kosovo atlas, page 12.

7 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

13 WITNESS: FLORIM KRASNIQI

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Ms. Romano:

16 Q. Witness, please, can you state your full name to the Court.

17 A. Yes. My name is Florim Krasniqi.

18 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, when were you born?

19 A. 7th of November, 1966.

20 Q. And where do you live?

21 A. In Mirosale village of Ferizaj municipality.

22 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you were interviewed on the 23th of April, 1999, by

23 members of the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you remember that?

24 A. I remember it very clearly.

25 Q. And at that time, did you give a statement to the investigators?

Page 4477

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And on the 1st of February of this year, 2002, you appeared before

3 a presiding officer appointed by the Registry of this Tribunal. Do you

4 remember that as well?

5 A. Yes, that's true.

6 Q. And you had the opportunity to review your statement, and you were

7 given a copy of your statement in the Albanian language; that's correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You also gave additional information that is comprised in an

10 addendum; that's correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution would like to submit the statement

13 into evidence.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's

15 Exhibit number 138.

16 MS. ROMANO: The summary of the witness's testimony is the

17 following: The witness is an Albanian male from the village of Mirosavlje

18 in the municipality of Urosevac.

19 On 4th of April, the witness saw military vehicles on the road

20 from Gnjilane to Urosevac positioned near the village of Softovic. They

21 shelled towards the villages of Rahovica and Zlatare, killing four people

22 in Zlatare and wounding another five people.

23 The next day, the witness heard shelling, firing, and tanks moving

24 in the direction of Pojatiste, following which about 1.000 internally

25 displaced persons from surrounding villages arrived in Mirosavlje. One of

Page 4478

1 these displaced persons was from Pojatiste and told the witness that Serb

2 forces had shot a number of people in his village. The witness attended

3 the funerals of these men and has prepared a hand-drawn map showing the

4 area between Mirosavlje and Pojatiste and indicating four gravesites where

5 the dead were buried, which is attached to his statement.

6 On 7 April 1999, the witness saw houses burning in Sojevo and

7 Kamena Glava in the municipality of Urosevac. He later heard that seven

8 people died in Sojevo, having been shot.

9 On 8th of April, 1999, Serb military vehicles came to his village.

10 As soon as the vehicles were at the outskirts of the village, the soldiers

11 jumped out and ran towards the houses. The witness and his family headed

12 to the centre of their village. They joined other villagers and displaced

13 persons who were fleeing, numbering hundreds. En route, the convoy was

14 harassed and insulted by Serb forces, and the witness saw many burned

15 houses and destroyed cars. The convoy was directed to Skopje by Serb

16 police, but the witness stayed in Urosevac until 14 of April, 1999.

17 On that date, the witness decided to leave Urosevac because every

18 day he was hearing about killings and massacres by the Serbian army, and

19 he felt it was too dangerous to stay. The witness then boarded a bus to

20 Djeneral Jankovic, and at the border, police entered the bus and checked

21 identification papers. The bus continued to the train station, where the

22 police separated the people and collected money from the heads of the

23 families. They were ordered to walk down the middle of the railway track

24 to Macedonia.

25 No further questions, Your Honour.

Page 4479

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] We have heard here now about killings, shootings,

4 woundings, et cetera, but my question is going to be very precise. Did

5 you personally see any one of these events that you are testifying about?

6 A. Yes. The -- I didn't see their execution, but I buried the

7 victims myself.

8 Q. I asked you whether you had seen a single one of these events. Is

9 the answer yes or no? You personally.

10 A. I didn't see the events myself, but I saw the casualties. I

11 buried the bodies that were killed -- of the people who were killed by

12 your soldiers, and I saw how the bodies were totally deformed.

13 Q. All right. Did you see this alleged execution in Pojatiste? Yes

14 or no.

15 A. Pojatishte cannot be -- is not visible from my village because of

16 the high hills, but the volleys of automatic rifle fire, when these

17 victims were executed, were audible.

18 Q. You claim that one of the victims of this alleged execution that

19 you had not seen was a certain Haxhi; is that right?

20 A. That's right. I can confirm his name here and now. He was also

21 called Bajram.

22 Q. All right. All right. Further on, on page 3, in paragraph 3 of

23 this statement, when you identify this Haxhi, you say his last name is

24 Godeni; is that right?

25 A. That's right.

Page 4480

1 Q. And you say that you're not from Pojatiste.

2 A. That's true. I'm not from Pojatishte. I'm from the village of

3 Mirosale. However, he was from Ferizaj, and he had left Ferizaj and was

4 temporarily staying in Pojatishte. When the Serbian forces entered

5 Pojatishte, he was captured, and at the same time he was executed

6 alongside villagers from Pojatishte.

7 Q. All right. That is what you had not seen, but that is what you

8 claim. You also claim that, according to this alleged execution that

9 you've been speaking about, there was a victim whose name you did not

10 know; is that right?

11 A. The victim whose name I did not then know was called Bajram

12 Godeni.

13 Q. Well, allegedly he's from the village of Smira. Is that right or

14 is that not right?

15 A. Somebody else is from the village of Smira. This is somebody who

16 survived death but received very serious wounds.

17 Q. But in your statement you say that you saw him later, this man,

18 this man who had been executed, that you saw him later and that his name

19 is Shaban, but you don't know his last name. Is that right or is that not

20 right?

21 A. That's right. His name is Shaban.

22 Q. Where did you see him? Where did you see him?

23 A. I didn't see Shaban. I saw Hasim. But it seems you haven't read

24 the statement as it is.

25 Q. What did this man who you saw say to you?

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Page 4482

1 A. Hasim? This man I met is Hasim, who told me in detail about the

2 execution.

3 Q. Was he also executed?

4 JUDGE MAY: Let's just --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He too --

6 JUDGE MAY: -- stick to the facts. Yes.

7 What did he tell you, this man?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This man said that Serbian soldiers

9 had gathered six people together, including Hasim. Hasim, together with

10 them, was taken -- were taken by a soldier and escorted to a place on the

11 edge of the village. There suddenly, when they arrived there, they forced

12 them -- and they surrounded them, and one of them fired an automatic

13 weapon. And of these people, three died on the spot, two were wounded,

14 and Hasim escaped, merely catching a bullet on his jacket, on the sleeve

15 of his coat.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did these people shoot at them or above their heads?

18 A. The soldier fired at them, and so the -- where the bullet landed

19 decided the fate of the victim.

20 Q. Hasim escaped when he saw that they would shoot; is that right?

21 A. That's right. That's right.

22 Q. How could he see then whether three men were killed, two wounded,

23 et cetera, when he was fleeing from those who were shooting and who could

24 not hit him?

25 A. Hasim didn't say how many victims got killed. He only said that

Page 4483

1 they were shot at. But he knew nothing about the fate of the others. It

2 was only later that we found out who the victims were, who the injured and

3 the dead were.

4 Q. Who did you find that out from?

5 A. We found that out because the son of Osman Mehmeti and Shaban's

6 son, Muharrem, went near that place after Hasim told them where that

7 shooting place was, and in the -- they were in danger of their lives

8 because the shooting still continued when they went closer to the place,

9 and they crawled near to that place and pulled the bodies away, the

10 injured, who was Osman, while the old man, Shaban, though injured, had

11 left, because they were not lethal injuries for the moment.

12 Q. What kind of injuries did they have, this man who left the

13 execution site himself and the one that was wounded? What kind of

14 injuries did they have?

15 A. From what we heard from the nurse who administered the first aid,

16 Osman had injuries on his belly and on his leg. A bullet had entered his

17 leg and, as a result of it, he had received an injury. And because of the

18 bloodshed, he died at 1.00 in the morning, because of lack of medical

19 assistance right away.

20 His son who was also injured, he was lucky because the bullet hit

21 him in the watch that was in his pocket so that deviated the trajectory of

22 the bullet. He was received in the leg too [as interpreted], but he was

23 slightly injured, so he was able to escape death.

24 Q. So some fled, some were executed, some were hit in the arm, some

25 in the leg. Is that what you've been trying to explain?

Page 4484

1 A. Yes, that is all.

2 Q. All right. Which nurse can give full details about these men?

3 Please give her name and the address where she lives at now.

4 A. That nurse is called Nerxhivane Berisha from Mirosale village, and

5 to this day she lives there. She has finished the high medical school.

6 Q. How far away is the village of Sojevo from your village?

7 A. Sojevo village is about four to five kilometres away from my

8 village.

9 Q. And how many Albanian families lived in Sojevo?

10 A. I can't give you an exact figure of all the Albanian families

11 living there because it's up to them to know the locals there. I know

12 that it is a village inhabited mainly by Kosovars.

13 Q. But how many live there, approximately? I'm not asking for the

14 accurate figure anyway.

15 A. An approximate figure, since the neighbourhoods are situated far

16 from each other, I might say that it has about 200 households.

17 Q. Two hundred households?

18 A. Between 150 to 200. Up to 200, I said.

19 Q. All right. How many citizens does that make altogether, to the

20 best -- to your best estimate?

21 A. I have not counted them.

22 Q. How many members does an average household in Sojevo have?

23 A. This is a ridiculous question, I would say, because I haven't

24 visited each and every one of the households of Sojevo to count their

25 members.

Page 4485

1 Q. All right. Did you see seven people killed in Sojevo?

2 A. I heard about it from eyewitnesses.

3 Q. And how do you know that it is true that these people were killed?

4 A. I know because people came from Sojevo to Mirosale and back and

5 forth, and those people -- it was easy to bring them from Sojevo to my

6 village at Mirosale because it is a mountainous area. And they have

7 confirmed to us that they were executed.

8 Q. How were they killed?

9 A. They were executed by your army. Among them, there were some

10 victims whose bodies were carbonised later on, completely charred.

11 Q. So this village which has 200 households, approximately, that is

12 to say a population of about 2.000, somebody went off and killed seven of

13 the inhabitants there, according to what they told you?

14 A. At the beginning, we were told that only seven persons were

15 killed, but after the war, we found out that there were more. Actually,

16 their number was over -- more than ten.

17 Q. Well, you claim that on the 7th of April, you saw some fires. Is

18 that right? Just tell me yes or no.

19 A. Yes, that's true.

20 Q. And then it seemed to you that it was houses in Sojevo and Kamena

21 Glava that were on fire; is that right?

22 A. I saw it because my house is situated on a higher ground, and from

23 there, I have a very good position to see what was going on. In this

24 case, in the Sojevo village, I could see the burning houses, and Kamena

25 Glava village. I saw the smoke rising in the sky.

Page 4486

1 Q. And do you know whose houses burned down in Sojevo? Do you know

2 the names of these persons?

3 A. I saw the burning houses. For the moment, it didn't matter whose

4 house that was or those were.

5 Q. No. I'm asking you whether you know whose houses had burned down.

6 A. A large number of houses were burned down. With regard to whose

7 houses they were, as I said, it is of no importance. Some --

8 JUDGE MAY: If you don't know, just say you don't know.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you the names. I'm

10 sorry.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And was there a conflict in Sojevo between the KLA and the army?

13 A. In Sojevo and the surrounding villages, there have never been any

14 KLA forces.

15 Q. So neither in Sojevo nor in your village were there ever any KLA

16 forces. Is that what you're saying? In Kamena Glava or anywhere else in

17 that area?

18 A. In our part of this area, that is in our village, there have never

19 been KLA forces.

20 Q. And were there any in Gornje Nerodimje?

21 A. Nerodimje and other villages are very far away from my own

22 village, therefore, I can't give you any answers to that.

23 Q. Well, these are villages in the same municipality. It's not a big

24 municipality, Urosevac.

25 A. I can speak here about things which I'm completely sure about.

Page 4487

1 Q. Yes. But a short while ago, you said that you did not see any of

2 these things that you are talking about personally.

3 A. I said even earlier that I buried the victims. I saw the burning

4 of the houses.

5 JUDGE MAY: No need to go over that. He says he saw the houses

6 burning.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. All right. You did your military service in 1985/1986; is that

10 right?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. In which service did you serve?

13 A. I did my military service in Mali Bor in Slovenia.

14 Q. Yes, but which arms and services?

15 A. I was -- I did it in the communication, telephone communication

16 service.

17 Q. And you claim that on the 8th of April, you saw a tank, M84, and a

18 M60 armoured vehicle; is that right?

19 A. I didn't see only a tank and only an armoured vehicle, M60. There

20 were many -- several tanks and several armoured cars.

21 Q. And as a signals corps person, how can you know what an M84 is, a

22 tank, and also an armoured vehicle, M60? Where did you acquire this

23 knowledge?

24 A. I know this. Even a child of 12 or less can say this, can

25 confirm this, because these tanks, these armoured cars, were a daily

Page 4488

1 reality for us Kosovars at that time, from before the war started.

2 Q. Yes. But how could you distinguish between the different types of

3 armoured vehicles? You claim that these were the types that you mention

4 in your statement.

5 A. Yes, that's correct. But it's easy to distinguish a tank from

6 another armed vehicle which has another shape rather smaller than the

7 tank.

8 Q. Please describe an M84 for us.

9 A. An M84 is a large tank. It has a large calibre cannon with a

10 large barrel.

11 Q. What's the calibre?

12 A. I can't give you an exact figure.

13 Q. And this armoured vehicle, M60, what does it have?

14 A. Usually they have a large machine-gun which have wreaked havoc

15 among the Albanian population of Kosova.

16 Q. All right. Tell me, who did you hear say that this was an M60 or

17 an M84, as you had put it?

18 A. I am not clear about the question, I'm afraid.

19 JUDGE MAY: He says that he identified these vehicles himself.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. So you didn't hear that from someone else, that these were the

23 vehicles concerned. You managed to identify them yourself.

24 A. I distinguished them myself because, as I said before, armoured

25 vehicles were commonplace in Kosova and had been for a long time, on all

Page 4489

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Page 4491

1 the roads.

2 Q. And do you know that there is no such thing as an M84, there's

3 only a T84? If we're talking about tanks.

4 JUDGE MAY: We will have expert evidence on this in due course.

5 Do you know anything about that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About tanks? If I saw a photograph,

7 I could tell you that -- I could confirm you which -- confirm for you

8 which tanks were involved in and around my village.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness have Exhibit 17.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Let's not waste any time

11 now --

12 JUDGE MAY: No. You're challenging this. Let him just identify

13 from the exhibit.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but he claims that he

15 identified it himself. He claims that he identified it himself, not by

16 having someone show photographs to him. That is what you stated yourself

17 a minute ago.

18 JUDGE MAY: He can see the photographs that we have here and see

19 if he can identify which it is. Now, if he has 17, he can have a look.

20 Let the witness have a look at Exhibit 17 and see whether he can

21 identify the M60 and the M84.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the armoured vehicle that

23 was used.

24 JUDGE MAY: Just put it on the ELMO and we will see it. Which

25 one?

Page 4492

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one.

2 JUDGE MAY: Number 2 in Exhibit 17. Yes. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE MAY: And the tank? Yes, we've got that. And the tank?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the tank that was used.

6 JUDGE MAY: Which one?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Six.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Number 6 on Exhibit 17.

9 Now, Mr. Milosevic, do you want to ask any questions about that?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have nothing to ask. He

11 just identified the wrong tank, and you're going to see that because

12 you've marked it with number 6. But let's not waste any time.

13 JUDGE MAY: So that -- so the matter is ended, in fairness to the

14 witness, he's identified the BTR60 APC and the T54 or 55 tank.

15 Yes. Thank you. We can put the exhibit back.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So you have seen that he identified

17 the wrong combat vehicle.

18 JUDGE MAY: We will make a judgement about that. I've already

19 said what he did identify, and we've got the pictures. If you think

20 there's a significant difference, so be it. Now, let's move on.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. The soldiers who jumped out of the APCs and who started running

23 towards your village, did they fire at someone? Yes or no.

24 A. I saw them running to the Cakaj neighbourhood of my village, but

25 they weren't firing.

Page 4493

1 Q. All right. Now, how many people were in the group which was in

2 your column when they left the village?

3 A. You mean the number of soldiers or of the civilian population?

4 Q. No. I'm talking about the civilians, those who, upon leaving the

5 village, moved in your column. So I mean civilians. How many people were

6 in that group?

7 A. There were tractors, a lot of tractors in this group. So you

8 cannot tell the total number because, besides the local people, there were

9 also a large number of people from other villages such as Pojatishte

10 Mohovci, Prelez, and many others. And these people had come to Mirosale

11 to seek refuge because, until 8th of April, Mirosale was rather more

12 peaceful than other places and had not been occupied by Serbian forces.

13 Q. All right, I asked you how many of them were there and you say you

14 can't say how many and there were people from your village and other

15 villages as well. I got that.

16 Now, when you left your village, on the main road you came across

17 a checkpoint set up by the Yugoslav army. Is that right or not?

18 A. At the exit from Mirosale, following the road to the

19 Gjilan-Ferizaj road or at the entrance to the village of Tankosiq, there

20 was a checkpoint set up by Serbian forces. Adem Berisha, with his Lada

21 car, a red one, was stopped at this checkpoint, and they confiscated his

22 car and forced him to go back. This person was running towards us, and a

23 Serbian soldier fired on him in -- fired in the air, and he came to us,

24 and he climbed into a tractor and continued on the road to Ferizaj.

25 Q. You said that two inhabitants of your village started to flee from

Page 4494

1 the soldiers who were at the checkpoint. One was Azem Berisha, whom

2 you've just mentioned. Who was the other one?

3 A. Astrit Berisha.

4 Q. So there were just those two who were in the vehicle?

5 A. There were only these two people on the vehicle, and the -- their

6 families were on the trailer.

7 Q. In your trailer or in another one nearby, near them?

8 A. In the trailer that was in front of us.

9 Q. And you say that the soldiers did not shoot at them, but they shot

10 up in the air. Is that it?

11 A. They fired in the air. That's right.

12 Q. And where did those two men take cover, then; with you or did they

13 get into the trailer where their families were?

14 A. They joined another tractor which they managed to find. It was

15 not important by which trailer they saved themselves, they only wanted to

16 get away from the scene of this tragedy.

17 Q. And on the occasion, did you pass a checkpoint or did you go back

18 in the direction which you had come from?

19 A. Seeing what was happening there, that is on -- that the road to

20 Tankosiq was impassable, we turned and went back in the direction of

21 Ferizaj.

22 Q. But I understood you to say that you had left to go to Sojevo,

23 that you had left that place and went to Sojevo. Is that correct or did I

24 misunderstand you? And I think that's what it says in your statement as

25 well.

Page 4495

1 A. To go to Ferizaj, you have to pass through Sojevo.

2 Q. Well, how did you go to Sojevo when you said that you heard that

3 the army was there? And it was the army and the soldiers that you were

4 escaping from, and it was these people whom you allege had killed seven

5 people in the village of Sojevo and set fire to the houses there.

6 A. Well, we went in that direction, putting our dearest ones and

7 ourselves at risk. However, we knew that Serbian forces were there, but

8 your main purpose was for everybody to leave Kosova so that we should

9 never ever go back to Kosova. And so we went in that direction, thinking

10 that even if they killed us, our lives didn't count for much any more.

11 Q. All right. You were fleeing from that army, from those soldiers,

12 and you claim that they had killed somebody over there. And then you went

13 back to precisely that place where those soldiers were whom, as you said,

14 had killed someone. Is it your explanation that life didn't count for

15 much? Is that why?

16 A. Hearing about the various murders, then life becomes cheaper. You

17 can find death anywhere.

18 Q. All right. But why did you flee, then, for the reasons you

19 stated?

20 A. We left when the Serbian forces entered my village. So my village

21 was occupied, and it was no longer possible to live there, so we were

22 forced to leave by your forces.

23 Q. All right, I understand the explanation you've just given, but

24 would you please answer my questions. So in Sojevo, you came across a

25 military checkpoint as well; is that right?

Page 4496

1 A. If you came across a checkpoint which had narrowed the road, we

2 had to slow down, and a Serbian soldier photographed all the tractors, one

3 by one, and the people in them, and insulted us.

4 Q. All right. So the soldiers who had previously, according to what

5 you say, in that same village of Sojevo, killed seven people and set fire

6 to the houses, didn't even stop you. Have I understood you correctly?

7 A. Those who killed in Sojevo, fortunately, because we were a large

8 convoy, did not stop us because they knew very well that this convoy would

9 never return to Kosova but would take the road of no return.

10 Q. And you noticed some civilian vehicles there, did you?

11 A. It's true. There were civilian vehicles standing in the road,

12 without licence plates or with covered licence plates. There were

13 different civilian trucks prepared for looting, prepared to loot the

14 civilian population of any village they entered.

15 Q. All right. And how did you come to that conclusion, passing by

16 their vehicles? How did you know that these were vehicles ready to loot?

17 A. I had heard this before from the experience of other different

18 villagers. I knew this from reading newspapers and from other people.

19 And there are also films that I have brought here that document this, and

20 you can see the houses emptied of their contents.

21 Q. Well, the inhabitants, didn't they take those things with them

22 when they left?

23 A. We couldn't take even the things we needed. We left merely with

24 the clothes on our backs.

25 Q. Yes. But you say that, in addition to the soldiers, and you

Page 4497

1 mentioned that there were some paramilitaries there as well, that you just

2 passed by them quite simply. Is that true or not?

3 A. There on the road, there were military forces. So whether they

4 were paramilitaries or regular units, that's up to you, because they were

5 all uniformed.

6 Q. You mentioned them, that's why I'm asking you. But let's leave

7 that aside for the moment. You just went past them and nobody harmed you

8 at all. Nobody did anything to you; is that right?

9 A. Fortunately, yes.

10 Q. When you crossed the border, nobody took away your ID papers; is

11 that correct?

12 A. On the road from Ferizaj to Han i Elezit, on the road, I saw all

13 sorts of things. And a police entered the bus in Han i Elezit, demanded

14 our documents, identity cards. I was in the back of the bus and, while he

15 was asking for the documents of the other travellers, because the bus was

16 absolutely crammed with people, mainly women and children, and I handed

17 over my identity card with them and put them -- put mine at the bottom of

18 the pile. And I -- he -- I handed it over to the police, and he began to

19 go through them. He identified three or four identity cards and then gave

20 them back.

21 Q. And he gave everything back to you; is that right?

22 A. That's right. That's right. Returned them all.

23 Q. All right. Now tell me this: How long have you been a member of

24 the KLA -- of the DSK? I beg your pardon, of the DSK -- LDK.

25 A. I have been a member of the LDK since the early days, since its

Page 4498

1 formation. And most of the population of Kosova were members of the LDK.

2 Q. Yes, but what about you? Since when have you been a member? Can

3 you give us a date?

4 A. I've been a member of the LDK since 1990.

5 Q. And did you have a party function in the LDK at all?

6 A. I was a member of the Presidency of the LDK in my village, and I

7 was given the job of helping the population with food, because they were

8 constantly under threat of hunger.

9 Q. All right. And the president of your party, in his testimony,

10 says that a large number of the LDK members at the local level were

11 members of the KLA as well. Is that true?

12 A. Regarding what the chairman said, in some other areas where the

13 war had already assumed larger dimensions, this may well have happened and

14 indeed did. But in my village and the other villages around, there were

15 no members of the KLA. I can say that in my village, the members of the

16 Presidency were not members of the KLA but were involved in this time with

17 providing accommodation for the people and helping them with food.

18 Q. All right. And who put you in charge of the refugees, taking care

19 of them?

20 A. The members of the village Presidency entrusted me with this task.

21 Q. And did you make lists of refugees and the places they had come

22 from?

23 A. Before 24th of March, because the flow of refugees was rather

24 smaller, we compiled a -- certain lists. But later, the flow became much

25 larger and then it was no longer possible to check and list them all.

Page 4499

1 Q. And how many were there before the 24th of March?

2 A. Also there was somebody else entrusted with making lists of them

3 at that time, but I was involved in providing them with food then.

4 Q. All right. But I'm not asking you for their names. You said

5 there were not many of them, but how many of them were there? Because in

6 order to provide them with food, you had to know how many of them there

7 were.

8 A. To give them food under regular time, you can give them food such

9 as they like. But under war conditions, bread and salt is enough. So

10 there was no need for any professional preparation of what they were to

11 receive. And their number was around 1.000 to 1.500 people. This is

12 before the 24th of March.

13 Q. All right. And how many members of the LDK at that time? How

14 many were there?

15 A. In Mirosale, there were about 200 members of the LDK. This is

16 related to the period before the war.

17 Q. And why were you afraid then that the police would arrest you if

18 they learnt you were a member of the LDK when there were 200 people in the

19 LDK in your village alone?

20 A. Because I was a member of the Presidency, and for that reason.

21 Q. And did the police arrest any member of the LDK, of you 200?

22 A. Some were maltreated, but none were imprisoned.

23 Q. All right. And was anybody killed on that 6th, 7th, and 8th of

24 April, 1999, in your village?

25 A. Fortunately, no, no one was killed from the village. But a

Page 4500

1 passerby was killed.

2 Q. All right. And what happened to that five-member Serbian family,

3 the only family, in fact, that lived in your village?

4 A. The Serb family which remained there up to the 8th of April that

5 we saw it, and then they remained alone, we behaved very well towards this

6 family, all the villagers. And they, too, also behaved in the same way.

7 Q. All right. Now, do you happen to know of the crimes of the KLA in

8 your municipality of Urosevac between 1998 and 1999?

9 A. I said we didn't have any KLA in Ferizaj.

10 Q. You mean in the Urosevac municipality there was no KLA? Is that

11 it?

12 JUDGE MAY: Let us not argue about names. That's the witness's

13 evidence, that there was no KLA.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. All right. Do you know about some other events that occurred, for

16 example, of the 20th of December, 1998, when a group of KLA members on

17 that day - in the evening, rather - kidnapped Joha Ramadani and his wife

18 Mevluda, Muslia Benush [phoen] and his wife Matim Matesh Afrim [phoen] and

19 Muhajevi Naser [phoen]? This took place in the village of Dramjak. Did

20 you hear about that happening?

21 A. I have not heard of this event. This is the first time for me to

22 hear that, from you.

23 Q. And what about another event in the village of Doganjevo when they

24 threw hand grenades and shot from automatic rifles at a cafe belonging to

25 Jashar Sarafari, also an Albanian from the village Doganjevo?

Page 4501

1 A. There isn't any such village called Doganjevo in Ferizaj

2 municipality.

3 JUDGE MAY: Can you help us with any actions of the KLA as alleged

4 in Ferizaj, or not?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if there were any KLA

6 presence in Ferizaj, I can assure you that the victims would be in

7 unprecedented numbers. But people in uniforms, KLA uniform, there have

8 never been. Therefore, fortunately, our municipality suffered less

9 casualties compared to other municipalities where there were KLA forces.

10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we must -- we must bring this

11 cross-examination to a close in the next minute.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one more question.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So where there was no KLA, there were less casualties; is that

15 right? That's what you said a moment ago; right?

16 A. In all the areas of Kosova where there was no KLA, the number of

17 victims was smaller.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you very much.

19 We have exhausted our time.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff.

21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have nothing to ask, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.

23 MS. ROMANO: No. No questions, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Krasniqi, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

25 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

Page 4502

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to thank you and to convey

2 the heartfelt greetings of the families of the victims and especially

3 their mothers who send you their regards. You and all your people who are

4 in Kosova and are rendering great contribution for justice to triumph in

5 Kosova, justice which was in oblivion for several years.

6 JUDGE MAY: We must bring that to a close. Thank you very much.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to withdraw.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I understand there were some listing

11 difficulties you would like me to address. I'll be very brief because I

12 know time is pressing and I would like to return, perhaps in a private

13 session, to one of the topics we were discussing this morning, for a

14 minute.

15 We have an updated list in the form of a letter to Mr. Dubuisson

16 which I can now distribute. While that's being made available, the

17 problems we face in producing witnesses include that witnesses whose

18 evidence is being given by 92 -- the provisions of 92 bis come in batches.

19 It's only possible to have two batches a week, and we can only roughly get

20 enough witnesses through the Victims and Witnesses Unit, with their great

21 assistance, to fill about two and a half days per week at the average rate

22 we're proceeding at the moment. So that's the underlying or the

23 background problem.

24 As to the particular problem with the witness identified by the

25 accused - we needn't give any names or so on, identifying marks for the

Page 4503

1 moment - for this Thursday, there was another witness who was originally

2 of a similar type coming in for this Thursday. That witness's travel

3 arrangements were compromised by security issues and so that witness

4 couldn't come. Because we can only have about two and a half days of 92

5 bis witnesses in a week, it's not possible to get more at this rate,

6 another witness had to be brought forward and the decision was made to

7 bring forward the witness about whom the accused spoke this morning and

8 who now features on the latest letter at number 9.

9 So that explains the problem. We're always unhappy when it

10 happens, but our prime concern is to make maximum use of the court time

11 available and there was no other way we could fill it apart from bringing

12 a different category of witness from a 92 bis witness in respect of whom

13 we used our maximum allocation.

14 So that explains at that problem. We do everything we can to

15 avoid these problems occurring, but frequently there are events entirely

16 outside our control.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I think that, of course, is understood, but

18 it does present the accused and the Chamber with preparation difficulties.

19 So we would be grateful if it's kept to a complete minimum.

20 MR. NICE: Can I make one other public announcement and then have

21 a minute in private session, if you would allow that. The public

22 announcement is that, by oversight, Exhibit 132 included some pages which

23 are irrelevant. I'll just give you the numbers of the pages. They are

24 serial numbers 00461197 to 1222. They don't relate to that document,

25 they're another document. It's one of the constitutional documents and

Page 4504

1 another constitution crept in by --

2 JUDGE MAY: It's the constitution of Republika Srpska.

3 MR. NICE: Yes, and another one's crept in.

4 JUDGE MAY: Which got in by mistake but no doubt it will be

5 relevant at some stage.

6 MR. NICE: It may be. May we very briefly go into private

7 session?

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of April,

13 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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