Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4507

1 Wednesday, 8 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

10 WITNESS: AVNI NEBIHU

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, the witness will be giving evidence for

13 the events that occurred in Urosevac municipality again, so the Kosovo

14 atlas map is on page 12.

15 Examined by Ms. Romano:

16 Q. Can you please state your full name to the Court, sir.

17 A. My name is Avni Nebihu, Ferizaj municipality, Sojevo village. I

18 was born on 12 April, 1956.

19 Q. Are you an Albanian and a Muslim?

20 A. Yes. I am Albanian from Kosova.

21 Q. What is your profession?

22 A. I work in the transportation.

23 Q. Mr. Nebihu, you were interviewed by members of the Office of the

24 Prosecutor on May the 2nd, 1999, and again on 20 November, 2001; is that

25 correct?

Page 4508

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. And at that time, you provided them with two statements; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And on the 5th of February this year, 2002, you attended a meeting

6 and you appeared before a presiding officer appointed by the Registrar of

7 this Tribunal, and you were provided with an Albanian copy, a copy in the

8 Albanian language of your statement. Is that also correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. And you reviewed the statements at that time?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, the Prosecution submits the two

13 statements under Rule 92 bis.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's

16 Exhibit 139.

17 MS. ROMANO: The summary of the witness's testimony is the

18 following: The witness comes from the village of Sojevo in the

19 municipality of Urosevac. He testifies that starting with the NATO

20 airstrikes on 24 March 1999, Serb forces were moving along the main road

21 and firing in the direction of the houses in his village.

22 Four to five days later, the Serb army arrived at the witness's

23 village and took up positions around the school and at the mosque. The

24 witness saw four large tanks and at least three APCs, a large number of

25 soldiers wearing olive-green colour uniforms. Within 30 minutes of their

Page 4509

1 arrival, the soldiers started shooting in the air. They were later joined

2 by paramilitaries, and the witness believes the army and the

3 paramilitaries were working in concert.

4 Two days after they entered the village, the soldiers started

5 forcibly removing people from their homes. Three APCs and soldiers on

6 foot arrived at the witness's house. The witness started to move his

7 family towards the woods and was followed by an APC which constantly shot

8 into the air. Approximately 400 villagers gathered in the woods. The

9 soldiers set fire to all the houses, and the villagers in the woods were

10 soon surrounded by paramilitaries who robbed them and left.

11 Most of the villagers headed for Urosevac using the back roads.

12 The witness and his family stayed in Urosevac for about a week, during

13 which the army kept a very tight control of the city. The witness's

14 brother came to the house where the witness was staying because soldiers

15 had entered the house where he was staying, beat everybody up, lined them

16 up for execution, and forced them to leave the house. The witness

17 attempted to return to his village, but he was told that his uncle and his

18 uncle's wife had been killed and so decided to return to Urosevac.

19 On April 12, the witness and his family went to the train station

20 and were taken to Djeneral Jankovic. When the witness and others

21 disembarked from the train, Serb army and police were present. They

22 directed them to walk down the railway tracks into Macedonia.

23 That's all, Your Honours. No further questions.

24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Page 4510

1 Q. [Interpretation] In your first statement, you claim that in your

2 village there were about 200 houses, and in every one of these houses

3 there were nine or ten people, as you had put it. Is that to say that the

4 population of your village was between 1.800 and 2.000? Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Tell me the exact date when you left your village together with

7 the other villagers.

8 A. We left the village on 6th of March. I'm sorry, on the 6th of

9 April.

10 Q. In your second statement, you claim that the village of Sojevo, on

11 that day when you left the village, that actually about 500 villagers left

12 together with you. Is that right? Is that what you said?

13 A. I can't hear well. I can't hear interpretation.

14 JUDGE MAY: Can we just check.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I can hear.

16 JUDGE MAY: Did you hear the last question?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat it now?

18 JUDGE MAY: The question was that, in your statement, you referred

19 to leaving the village with about 500 other villagers, and you were asked,

20 "Is that correct?"

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Also, you said that you know that only 11 villagers stayed back in

24 the village when you left. Is that right?

25 A. I said that 11 inhabitants were killed. I didn't say 11 stayed

Page 4511

1 behind. There were more left behind.

2 Q. How many stayed behind?

3 A. Some didn't manage to flee, some stayed, and 11 were killed.

4 Q. How many stayed behind?

5 A. No one remained behind in the village.

6 Q. No one stayed behind in the village? Five hundred people left

7 together with you. Awhile ago, we said that the population was about

8 2.000. And what happened with the remaining 1.500 villagers?

9 A. I didn't say 1.000 or 2.000, but I said we were a group who left

10 the neighbours'. Together with the guests we had, we were about 500

11 people.

12 Q. Yes. But at the outset, we stated that in the village there were

13 about 1.800 -- between 1.800 and 2.000 people. If 500 left in your group,

14 what -- and nobody stayed behind in the village, what happened to the

15 remaining 1.300 or 1.500 who are missing?

16 A. In my neighbourhood, we were about 500 people, and the regular

17 army drove us out of our homes, and we had to leave. And they started to

18 set fire on the houses. We were about 500 metres away. We stopped a

19 little while further.

20 JUDGE MAY: Let me interrupt you and see that there is no

21 confusion here. The point which is being made is that you left the

22 village with 500 or so. Can you tell us what happened to the others from

23 the village?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village is spread out. It has

25 several neighbourhoods. I am testifying about what happened in my

Page 4512

1 neighbourhood. I have no information about other neighbourhoods, but I

2 can tell you about what happened in my own neighbourhood.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did anybody stay behind from your neighbourhood?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only two people remained behind. In

5 another neighbourhood close by, there were two other people who were left

6 behind.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Can we now establish what happened with the remaining 1.500

9 villagers? You're talking about 11, you're talking about five, you're

10 talking about 500. What happened with the remaining 1.500? The population

11 of the village was between 1.800 and 2.000.

12 JUDGE MAY: He's already explained that in fact he's dealing with

13 his neighbourhood alone. That's what he can give evidence about. He says

14 he can't give evidence about the rest of the village.

15 JUDGE KWON: Let me clarify this matter. Mr. Nebihu, you wrote in

16 your statement that Sojevo is a village with about 200 houses. How many

17 houses were there in your neighbourhood?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 30, 31, 32.

19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Again our figures do not match, because if it's 30 houses, then

22 about 300 people could have left with him according to the data the

23 witness has provided. Now we've started dividing villages in terms of

24 neighbourhoods, closer and further neighbourhoods.

25 A. We did not divide the villages, but they are, the village is like

Page 4513

1 that; it is separated in different neighbourhoods.

2 Q. All right. Is it correct that when you gave your first statement

3 you confirmed that you would testify only about what happened to you or

4 about events that you witnessed yourself? Is that right?

5 A. I will testify only to what I went through and to what I saw with

6 my own eyes. That's it.

7 Q. All right. Why are you then testifying about Ekrem Etemi and

8 Naser Etemi and their alleged wounding when you never saw their wounding

9 and you never saw who wounded them and you never saw where they were

10 wounded?

11 A. We were in the village. They were killed on the main road,

12 Gjilan-Ferizaj. A military car of yours stopped them. It was a white

13 car. The people were dressed in military uniforms, and they asked them

14 about the names, and -- and then they shot them with a pistol. The

15 villagers who were there with them, nearby, took them, that is, their

16 buddies. They wanted to take them to Macedonia. Naser managed to be

17 taken to Macedonia. The other one was returned -- was taken to Prishtina.

18 Q. Well, awhile ago you said they were killed. In your statement,

19 you said that they were wounded. Now, again, you're saying that they were

20 wounded.

21 A. I said they were shot but not shot dead. I met Naser in Stankovac

22 after he was recovered from the wounds, and I saw with my own eyes the

23 bullet that they had taken out of his bullet [as interpreted]. But with

24 Ekrem, I never saw him again.

25 Q. But you know where he left; right?

Page 4514

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Page 4515

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. They left on that day. Ekrem was taken to Pristina hospital; the

3 other one to Macedonia.

4 Q. In your first statement, you claim that you were standing in front

5 of your house when the soldiers entered your brother's house. In your

6 second statement, you claim that you were standing in the yard and that

7 you were actually watching what was going on. Where were you actually

8 standing?

9 A. We were in the yard when they entered the house. And two officers

10 they were. They said to him, "Hold up your hands." We were there,

11 watching what was going on. Then they drove out of his house my brother

12 and all of us, and we left all together. We gathered about 500 away from

13 that place [as interpreted]. Then we saw our houses set on fire

14 immediately.

15 Q. All right. We'll get back to that later. Where were you standing

16 then?

17 JUDGE MAY: He said he was in the yard.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. In your first statement, on page 3, paragraph 5, you still claim

21 that when you saw what was going on in the neighbouring houses, you

22 entered your own house, and you said to your family that you had to go.

23 Is it correct that that is what you stated, that that's the way things

24 happened?

25 A. Yes. This is what happened. The soldiers entered the yard and

Page 4516

1 told us, "What are you waiting for? Why don't you leave?" And we asked

2 them, "Where are we going?" They said, "Do you expect us to tell you

3 where you should go?" That was all.

4 Q. Let us clarify precisely what you've said just now. Awhile ago, I

5 put a question to you. I said in your statement you claimed that when you

6 saw what was going on in the neighbouring houses, you entered your own

7 house and you said to your family that you had to go. Is that the way it

8 was? That is to say, when you saw this -- this is your claim: When you

9 saw what was going on in the neighbouring houses, you entered your house

10 and you said to your family that you had to go. Was that the way it was?

11 A. No. That is not true. No. No, I didn't say that.

12 Q. All right. Take a look at this paragraph here, in the middle of

13 the penultimate paragraph. Before that, you actually describe what was

14 going on and what your brother said to you, that they had searched him, et

15 cetera.

16 "In the immediate neighbourhood of my house, there were six other

17 houses, and they went to another house. The soldiers were throwing

18 families out of their houses." And now I'm telling you what you claim you

19 did not say. "When I saw what was going on, I decided not to wait. I

20 went in and told my family that we had to leave. I started to move my

21 family out of the house, and we headed towards the woods."

22 So you say here that when you saw what was going on, you went into

23 the house and said to your family that you had to leave. That is what you

24 claim now that you had not said.

25 In the other statement, you say that the soldiers came and said to

Page 4517

1 you, "What are you waiting for? Why don't you leave your house?"

2 Now, what is correct out of all of this? Did you see what was

3 happening and did you enter the house and tell your family you had to

4 leave or was it the soldiers who came to you and said, "What are you

5 waiting for? Go." These are two completely different things that you've

6 been saying in these two statements.

7 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with it. Yes.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I saw my brother taken out of

9 his house, I saw two armoured cars stopped in front of the yard. Then the

10 brother came to my home, accompanied by the soldiers, and an officer told

11 me, "Why have you shut the door?" I didn't say a word. And he said, "Go

12 away. Why are you waiting any more?" That was how it was.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Can you explain the difference between these two statements of

15 yours?

16 JUDGE MAY: He's given his explanation. If you want to make a

17 comment, you can do so.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. In your first statement, you say that you left the house with your

20 family and went -- and took to the woods, headed towards the woods; and in

21 your second statement, you say that you were escorted by the soldiers who

22 had ordered you to leave and that they in fact took you to Poljane where

23 there was a group of paramilitaries. Which of the two is correct; what

24 you said in your first statement or what you said in your second?

25 A. It was the regular army that drove us out of our homes. Then they

Page 4518

1 escorted us as the villagers who were getting together, with the armoured

2 cars, about 500 metres away, and then they set fire to our houses. After

3 an hour, the paramilitaries came, and we took a position further, and from

4 there, we watched our houses burning. Then after that, they divided us in

5 two groups; the women and children in one group, the males in another

6 group. They took away the valuables, jewellery, necklaces, whatever the

7 women had. You know yourself.

8 And we happened to know some one of them, and I addressed him. He

9 told us, "Don't talk to me in Albanian. Talk to me in Serbian, because

10 they may understand what you are saying." [As interpreted]

11 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you a few direct questions now

12 because I don't feel that we're understanding each other with respect to

13 the differences in your statement. So I'm going to read out the passage

14 that relates to the same event in your first and second statement, and

15 perhaps that will be easier for you. You'll be able to answer my

16 questions more easily.

17 For example, in the first statement, you say the following: "In

18 the night when NATO first started its bombing, I went outside together

19 with other members of my family to watch it. I had quite a number of

20 guests staying in my house at the time."

21 I have been asked to read more slowly.

22 "That was on the 24th of March. It was around midnight, and we

23 were in the yard. I heard shots coming from the direction of the main

24 road running to Urosevac. I saw some inflammatory bullets coming from

25 that direction, and it appeared as if they were shooting in the direction

Page 4519

1 of the houses on both sides and also up in the air. I wasn't able to see

2 who was doing the shooting."

3 In your second statement, you say the following: "When the NATO

4 bombing started, the Serb forces were moving along the main road and were

5 shooting in the direction of the houses in my village. Some of the

6 bullets hit the houses belonging to my cousins, but there were no

7 casualties."

8 So in your first statement, you describe NATO bombing, and you saw

9 these illuminating bullets and the anti-aircraft artillery, although you

10 also say that you thought they were shooting in the direction of the

11 houses. In your second statement, you say that the forces were moving

12 along the main road and that they were shooting at the houses and that, "a

13 certain number of bullets hit the houses belonging to my cousins although

14 there were no casualties." Now, which of those two statements is correct;

15 what you said in the first or what you said in your second statement?

16 A. I contend that both statements are the same. After the NATO

17 bombing started, they shelled the village all the night. And that's how

18 it is.

19 JUDGE MAY: I suppose the question can be put in this way: In

20 your first statement, you did not mention the bullets hitting your

21 cousin's house. Was there any reason for that, as to why you didn't

22 mention it?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I -- I believe that in the

24 first statement they were only asking me about that day on which we left,

25 after the 24th.

Page 4520

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Very well. Let me ask you about the second difference that I

3 think is far more essential. In your first statement, you talk about one

4 of the soldiers, whom you identify as being Novica Mijovic and who helped

5 you there. But that's not the point, nor is the point that you make no

6 mention of him in the second statement.

7 I'm going to read a portion of your first statement, on page 4,

8 where you say the following: "Thanks to Novica, we are still alive.

9 There were about 400 of us villagers at this point. One of the soldiers

10 told us that we had to separate the men from the women. It was then that

11 Novica told us in Albanian not to talk to him in Serbian because they

12 would understand what we were talking about. He told us to speak to him

13 only in Albanian. They told us to sit on the ground in a very tight

14 group. There were in total about 30 to 40 of these soldiers."

15 And then we come to my question. I have read the whole paragraph

16 so that you can get the context. Then you say: "Novica spoke to one of

17 the other soldiers and had them change their minds about separating the

18 men and the women." Full stop. "We were allowed to stay together."

19 You say that in your first statement. So in your first statement,

20 you say this, explaining who helped you, and you go on to explain that

21 they did not separate you, and you clearly state that you were allowed to

22 stay together. In your second statement, the last paragraph on page 1,

23 you say the following: "When the paramilitaries surrounded us and stopped

24 us, we were close to the village of Grlica in the woods. Their first

25 words were women and children to separate from men." Then you go on to

Page 4521

1 state the following: "When they separated us--" that is to say you claim

2 that they did in fact separate you -- "the women were robbed of their

3 money and jewellery and they even took a ring from my brother. The

4 soldiers kept us there for 15 to 20 minutes before they all left," and so

5 on. "We did not know where to go. We had heard..." Et cetera.

6 So in your first statement, you claim that they did not separate

7 you and that thanks to this man whom you mention, a Serb by the name of

8 Novica Mijovic, they let you stay together. They didn't separate you, you

9 were allowed to stay together. However, in your second statement, you say

10 that they did separate you and that then they proceeded to take your money

11 and jewellery. So the point that has to be clarified is: Did they

12 separate you or did they not separate you? Are you clear on the fact

13 that in your first statement you state that they did not separate you and

14 in your second you state that they did separate you? Now, can there be

15 any misunderstanding there about giving two quite different statements?

16 Are you clear on the fact that you in fact gave two quite different

17 statements?

18 JUDGE MAY: The witness should be given copies of these statements

19 so that he can see -- so that he can see. You're putting that they're

20 different. He should have copies so that he can tell what's in them.

21 Has he got copies? Very well. I wonder if the usher would help

22 him to find his way round.

23 The first -- the first statement, it's on page 4 in the English.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right, yes.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

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Page 4523

1 Q. The last sentence of that second paragraph states: "We were

2 allowed to stay together. They changed their minds about separating the

3 men and the women, and we were allowed to stay together." That's what it

4 says.

5 And also, in the last paragraph on page 1 of the second statement,

6 it says: "When they separated us --"

7 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let's start with the first statement.

8 Mr. Nebihu, can you find the passage which begins, "Thanks to

9 Novica, we are still alive"?

10 JUDGE KWON: That seems to me page 5, second paragraph in the

11 Albanian statement.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what idea he had, but

13 he helped us as far as he could.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And everything -- and everything

16 that I said, that he was intending to help us, and that he did his best to

17 help us.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Could you read that paragraph and the next one

19 which begins, "Three or four of these soldiers went to every person in the

20 group and demanded our money. They also took the jewellery from the

21 women." Can you find those two paragraphs? Just read them for the

22 moment. Just read the two over to yourself and then you'll be asked some

23 questions about another statement.

24 Have you read those two?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 4524

1 JUDGE MAY: Now you're going to be shown your second statement.

2 Have you got the second statement there? The first page of the full

3 statement.

4 MS. ROMANO: It's page 3, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: Page 3 of the Albanian. Would you find the paragraph

6 which begins, "When the paramilitaries surrounded us and stopped us, we

7 were close to the village of Grlica, in the woods." If you'd read that

8 paragraph.

9 JUDGE KWON: It's the first paragraph of page 3 in the Albanian

10 statement.

11 JUDGE MAY: Maybe if you give the statement -- if the usher gives

12 the statement to the Prosecution, they can find it, or perhaps the

13 Registrar can help.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it. I found it.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just read that paragraph.

16 Now, the point which is being made is that in the first statement,

17 you say that Novica spoke to one of the other soldiers and had them change

18 their minds about separating the men and the women. You were allowed to

19 stay together. And then you go on to say that, after that, you were

20 robbed, you and the women.

21 In the second statement, it says that, "Their first words were,

22 women and children to separate from men. When they separated us, the

23 women were robbed of their money."

24 And the point which is being made is that in the first statement

25 it appears that you are saying you were all allowed to stay together. In

Page 4525

1 the second, it said -- it appears to say that you were separated.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I said they separated us, that

3 is, men from women, that they looted the women, that they robbed them of

4 their jewellery. Then they took away my brother's ring. Someone said,

5 "Give it away, because they might be problems from us." And then we

6 asked, "Where are we going now? Where should we go now?" And he said to

7 us, "You should go in the direction of Ferizaj." We couldn't go to Skopje

8 because we were on foot. That's why we went to Ferizaj.

9 JUDGE MAY: No. Concentrate on the separation. Did you remain

10 separated, the men from the women?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, we were separated.

12 JUDGE MAY: And did there come a time when you were together again

13 or not, or did you remain separated?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A moment came when we got together

15 again.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

17 The usher can return. Thank you.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. Have we cleared this up then? Did they separate you

20 or not?

21 A. They separated us. I think I've said it three times now.

22 Q. Why then in your first statement did you say that they did not

23 separate you?

24 A. I didn't say that they didn't separate us.

25 Q. You said, "We were allowed to stay together."

Page 4526

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think that's fair to the witness, in

4 light of the answer that he gave the Presiding Judge. It's a question of

5 sequence. What he said is that they were separated first and they came

6 together at some time after that. I think essentially in these matters of

7 discrepancies, once the explanation is given, the matter should end. It

8 is for the Trial Chamber to determine what weight we will attach to the

9 witness's evidence in the light of the discrepancy and the explanation

10 given. Once the explanation has been given, I think you should move on

11 and leave the rest to us to determine the weight to attach to the

12 evidence.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. If that is

14 your job, yes.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Now, in the first statement, you say on that same page but one

17 paragraph further on, that: "The soldiers then left us. Novica allowed

18 us to go to our vehicles and tractors. We then immediately left, and

19 together we headed towards Urosevac using the backroads."

20 In your second statement, at the end of that same paragraph where

21 you had been talking about how you were separated and looted, robbed, at

22 the end of that paragraph, you said that you went on foot and that a group

23 had a vehicle but that you yourself went on foot. You said, "I was on

24 foot."

25 Now, did you go to your vehicles and tractors? Because you say

Page 4527

1 you went up to your vehicles and tractors and then took the backroads to

2 Urosevac, whereas in your second statement you say you went on foot. So

3 which of the two is true?

4 A. The truth is that personally, I didn't have a vehicle, but some of

5 the villagers had their carts and tractors, and they went and took them,

6 and some of us were on foot.

7 Q. All right. At the end of your first statement -- or, rather, let

8 me start with your second statement. You say on that morning -- this is

9 towards the end of your second statement. It's a short paragraph, and you

10 say: "That morning, at the station, there were no uniformed policemen

11 unless they were in civilian clothes, but there was movement of military

12 and police on the road close to the station. Inside the station, nobody

13 was telling us what to do."

14 That is that whole paragraph. Now, in the last paragraph of your

15 first statement, this is what you say: "We all went to the train station

16 early in the morning. There were a lot of people at the station. There

17 were four rail cars. No one asked for documentation or tickets. There

18 were a lot of policemen in their regular police uniforms. They didn't do

19 anything to the people going to the train station. We got onto the train

20 which took us to Djeneral Jankovic. Once there, we got off the train.

21 The police there directed us to walk down the railway tracks into

22 Macedonia. We were never asked for documentation. We still have our

23 documents."

24 So that is that particular paragraph. Now, my question for you is

25 the following: In the second statement, you say quite resolutely that

Page 4528

1 there were no uniformed policemen. In your first statement, you state

2 there were a lot of policemen in their regular police uniforms.

3 Can you explain that, too, that difference?

4 A. The truth is that there were policemen. I mean when we got onto

5 the train. But then they were on the roads.

6 Q. Is that your explanation about the differences in the two

7 statements, that there were no policemen and that there were a lot of

8 policemen?

9 JUDGE MAY: He's given the explanation that there were policemen

10 on the train.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's not what it says in the

12 statements.

13 JUDGE MAY: No, but that's his explanation.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I see.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Now, in the first statement, you say that when you were moving

17 into the woods with your family, you were followed by an APC from which --

18 which shot into the air above your heads; is that right?

19 A. That happened when we left our houses. We had armoured vehicles

20 behind us. So please don't mix up the village with the town.

21 Q. I'm not mixing it up. I'm just asking you different questions.

22 Now, this question was that you say that when you were moving towards the

23 woods with your family, that that's when this took place.

24 A. When we left our houses, we were followed by auto vehicles until

25 the point when we were outside the village and then we stood positioned,

Page 4529

1 ready to return. And then the paramilitaries followed us and then we were

2 helped by Novica and that is the point where --

3 Q. All right. I've moved on to some other questions now linked to

4 the APC, the armoured personnel carrier that followed you. In your second

5 statement, you make no mention of the APC. In your second statement, you

6 say that when they threw you out of your houses, that a group of

7 paramilitary forces arrived in the village in three buses. Is that right?

8 JUDGE MAY: He's dealing with a different point there. He's given

9 his account and this is a second statement. Now, unless there's a

10 discrepancy, let's move on.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You claim that, from the woods, you saw the soldiers set fire to

14 your houses. Is that right or not?

15 A. We were not present actually at the place when they set fire, but

16 we saw it from afar when we were gathered.

17 Q. But you claim that you saw the houses being set fire to with some

18 device that lets out fire. Now, I'm asking you about this. You say you

19 saw this from the woods and now you say that you couldn't see this

20 directly. How then can you say that you saw what they were using to set

21 your houses alight when you couldn't even see the houses properly?

22 JUDGE MAY: He didn't say he couldn't see the houses properly.

23 What he said is, "We weren't present actually at the place when they set

24 it on fire but we saw it from afar."

25 Now could you see how they were setting the houses on fire, Mr.

Page 4530

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Page 4531

1 Nebihu, or not?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After they drove us away from our

3 houses, we were about only 500 metres away. If we were at home, they

4 would have burned us alive too, I think.

5 JUDGE MAY: Could you just -- just listen to the question, please.

6 Were you able to see how the Serb forces were setting fire to the houses?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We couldn't see that because we were

8 not in the place. We only saw the smoke and the flames coming out of the

9 houses.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Who told you to go to Urosevac?

12 A. Novica told us, "I think it's best. It's best for you to go to

13 Ferizaj and not stay there as a group. I mean walk as a group. Do not

14 separate, because you'll be safer in this way."

15 Q. The part of Urosevac where you were staying was quiet, wasn't it?

16 Is that what you said?

17 A. Yes. It was calm. In one place where we were staying, we stayed

18 there for a week. Women went out to fetch food and stuffs because we men

19 were afraid. Then after six days, we left early in the morning by train

20 and went to Macedonia.

21 Q. And how far away is this quiet area from the centre of town, this

22 quiet area that you were staying at?

23 A. About one kilometre.

24 Q. About a kilometre? You claim that during those days, NATO had

25 bombed. Could you hear NATO bombings from town?

Page 4532

1 A. Yes, all the time.

2 Q. And what was NATO bombing in Urosevac?

3 A. I don't know what it bombed in Ferizaj.

4 Q. And do you know how many people were killed by the NATO bombings

5 during those days in Urosevac?

6 A. I don't think there was anyone killed by NATO bombing. At least,

7 I don't know and I don't think it's true that anyone was killed as a

8 result of NATO bombing.

9 Q. All right. All right. When did you leave Urosevac? Do you

10 remember the date?

11 A. On 12th of March.

12 JUDGE MAY: March?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. That's some kind of a mistake.

14 THE INTERPRETER: 12th of April.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. The 12th of April. And you say that you left your village on the

17 6th of April?

18 A. We left the village on the 6th of April. For six days, we stayed

19 in Ferizaj, and then on the 12th, being unable to stay there any longer,

20 we had to leave Ferizaj.

21 Q. So on the 6th of April, as far as I could understand, you left the

22 village because our forces expelled you and torched your houses. Is that

23 right? That is briefly what you had claimed.

24 A. I said on the 6th of April we left the village and on the 12th of

25 April, we entered Macedonia.

Page 4533

1 Q. All right. Do you know of the village of Mirosavlje?

2 A. Yes, I know that some houses were burned there, but I can't give

3 any information about that.

4 Q. And how far away is Mirosavlje from Sojevo?

5 A. We are neighbours because our village is rather spread out, as I

6 said earlier. Not very far -- not very close, I would say. It's a bit

7 farther.

8 Q. I'm asking you this because yesterday -- I'm asking you this

9 because yesterday, a witness from Mirosavlje claimed that he first saw

10 fires from your village on the 7th of April.

11 JUDGE MAY: The witness cannot comment on what some other witness

12 said.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not asking him to comment.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. My question is do you know exactly when this happened, this that

16 you have been asserting?

17 A. The truth is that on the 6th, the houses were set on fire, but the

18 fact is also that the fire went on for one or two days. So it's not that

19 they were set on fire for one hour or two hours, you know. They continued

20 to issue smoke and flames.

21 Q. All right. Let's move on. In your first statement, you claim

22 that without any problems whatsoever, you left by train to Djeneral

23 Jankovic, but in the second statement, you claim that you had to pay ten

24 Deutschmarks per person. So which one of the two is correct? Did you

25 have to pay or did you not have to pay?

Page 4534

1 A. I didn't mention this in the first statement because they didn't

2 ask me. But in the second, I said that some people had to pay, let's say

3 up to 10 marks, Deutschmarks, and some didn't have to pay.

4 Q. And who did they pay this money to? Did they have tickets issued

5 to them by a conductor? Who did they give this money to?

6 A. There were many people. I can't say who got tickets or whether

7 they got tickets. As far as I am concerned, I didn't receive any tickets.

8 Q. Did you pay?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who did you give these ten Deutschmarks to?

11 A. I paid that money at the station.

12 Q. To whom? You said that you paid, but you did not get a ticket.

13 Who did you give the money to?

14 A. I paid the money at the station. The ticket --

15 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Who was it that you gave the money to

16 when you paid at the station?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person who sells tickets.

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, your time is now over, unless there's

19 one more question you want to ask this witness.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have only a few questions

21 left, so I think I can finish, because I have not overstepped the time. I

22 have a minute or two left.

23 JUDGE MAY: You have a minute or two and no more.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I do have an objection as well,

25 so I do hope that there will not be included in this time. So I'll start

Page 4535

1 with the objection.

2 When this witness was introduced, the explanation was given that

3 he gave two statements, one on the 2nd of May, 1999 and one in November,

4 2001. And this statement -- the second statement of the 20th of November,

5 2001, on the first page one can see that there was yet another statement

6 that was given on the 28th of August, 2001, that is to say, three months

7 before that. How is it possible that this side across the well can put

8 different statements together into one statement and without cautioning,

9 while introducing the witness, that there were three statements

10 altogether, and who combined these statements that are given here?

11 So gentlemen - Mr. May, Mr. Robinson, and Mr. Kwon - please look

12 at this first page. It says: Date of interviews: The 29th of August,

13 2001 and the 20th of November, 2001. Two statements within three months'

14 time put together in one statement.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.

18 MS. ROMANO: If I can clarify. The second statement is the

19 product of the interviews which took place on the 29th of August and again

20 on the 20th of November. There is no third statement whatsoever.

21 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Now, you have two

22 minutes more to ask questions of this witness.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Did you give your statement in the following way: Did you

Page 4536

1 yourself talk about what had happened to you or did you answer questions?

2 A. I said only what happened and then I made the necessary

3 corrections. They asked me whether that is true or not.

4 Q. That is to say that they did not put any questions to you except

5 for asking whether that was true.

6 A. They asked me questions and then they said to me, "You have to say

7 the same thing in all the statements," and this is how it is.

8 Q. Did the investigator ask you why you had left Kosovo?

9 A. We left Kosova on your orders.

10 Q. I am asking you whether the investigator asked you why you had

11 left Kosovo. The man who talked to you, the man you gave your statement

12 to, did he ask you why you had left Kosovo?

13 A. Yes, he asked me.

14 Q. And did he ask you -- did he ask you whether you were pleased by

15 the fact that NATO had bombed? Did he put that question to you?

16 A. In fact, we welcomed NATO bombing because there was no other way

17 we could have stayed in our homes.

18 Q. My question was whether this man who talked to you asked you

19 whether you were pleased by the fact that NATO had bombed.

20 A. He asked me, and I said yes, I was happy.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay.

23 MR. KAY: No questions.

24 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me a minute. Mr. Nebihu, I'm a little bit

25 confused about the date. What was the date when you left Urosevac or

Page 4537

1 Ferizaj?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 12th of April.

3 JUDGE KWON: But it seems to me that in both of your statements it

4 was 2nd of April.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a mistake. I told them 12th

6 of April. When they read the statement to me, I said, "You have to

7 correct this mistake, because it was the 12th of April." But probably

8 they have not corrected it.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

10 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

11 Q. Mr. Nebihu, I would like to clarify the fact -- the event that

12 happened when your -- when you were in your house and when the soldiers

13 approached your brother's gate of your house, and that was the events that

14 took place at that moment were the events that lead you to leave your

15 house. And I think that when Mr. Milosevic asked you some questions,

16 there were -- there were -- there was a little bit of confusion why did

17 you leave your house. Can you please go back to this fact and explain to

18 the Court again how did it happen?

19 A. This happened when they entered the yard of my brother's house. I

20 was outside, and I saw everything. They drove out the family of my

21 brother. They were unable to take anything with them, any clothes or

22 anything. And then together with my brother, we left because they told

23 us, "Why aren't you leaving? What are you waiting for?"

24 Q. And when you say "they," you are referring to whom?

25 A. I'm talking about my brother, my brother's family, my own family,

Page 4538

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Page 4539

1 because we live in the same compound.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Nebihu.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

4 MS. ROMANO: I just have one more question, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

6 MS. ROMANO:

7 Q. When you were in the woods, Mr. Nebihu, and you saw from that

8 place, you saw -- you saw the soldiers setting fire to the houses, and

9 when asked if you could see how they did that, you said you were not able

10 to see. In your first statement, you said that you saw some kind of

11 weapon that the soldiers were carrying and that was throwing fire. Was

12 that a mistake or did you see that weapon?

13 A. I saw the weapons when they captured us, but I didn't see the

14 weapon they used to set fire to the house.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nebihu.

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nebihu, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

17 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to

18 go.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, may we have private session for a short

24 period to return to the topic that we covered yesterday morning first

25 thing?

Page 4540

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

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Page 4541

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12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

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Page 4550

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're now in open

17 session.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. NICE: An expert, Dr. Baccard, is due to give evidence on the

20 21st. His statement has been served under the appropriate provisions. We

21 can't expect any formalities from the accused. We can't speak to the

22 accused directly, and so far those lawyers who are assisting him haven't

23 taken the opportunity to get in touch with me. Therefore, we should know

24 and invite the Chamber to assist us in learning whether the accused wishes

25 him to attend for cross-examination or not.

Page 4551

1 If he is to attend for cross-examination on good grounds, then the

2 logistics for bringing him here and allowing him to review the material in

3 advance of giving his evidence will have to be made, all of which is going

4 to be quite labour and time-consuming. If not, then his report can be

5 simply read or taken as read on the 21st.

6 JUDGE MAY: He is an expert on exhumations.

7 MR. NICE: Correct.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've heard what's been suggested --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Judge May, please.

10 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. The evidence of Dr. Baccard, who is an

11 expert on exhumations, is before the Court in the form of a report. Do

12 you want to cross-examine that witness or not?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's no need for that question to

14 be posed with respect to any of the witnesses because I am here -- I said

15 here in public on many occasions that witnesses who I'm not able to

16 cross-examination, secret witnesses and so on and so forth, cannot be

17 acceptable.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is my position.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. What is the position? He's an expert. If

21 there is -- if there is a call for cross-examination, then I think the

22 Court's powers are limited, aren't they?

23 MR. NICE: Yes. It's Rule 94, I think. Within 14 days of the

24 filing of the statement of the expert witness - well, that time's long

25 expired, I'm afraid - the opposing party shall file a notice indicating

Page 4552

1 whether it accepts the expert's statement or wishes to cross-examine. If

2 the party accepts the statement, the statement may be admitted into

3 evidence by the Trial Chamber without calling the witness to testify.

4 That's the Rule as earlier drafted, and I -- those parts of it

5 haven't been amended in the latest amendments.

6 JUDGE MAY: So you will have his report put before the Court,

7 presumably, and he must be here for cross-examination.

8 MR. NICE: It is extremely unfortunate that the accused is not

9 prepared, himself or by his lawyers, to consider witnesses on a

10 case-by-case basis and that he should seek simply to exert by blanket bar

11 or blanket approach to the witnesses to exert this effect on the timetable

12 of this trial, but the answer is we'll have him here.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

14 MR. NICE: I still repeat that it would be helpful if those

15 lawyers who are assisting him can get in touch. They have duties to the

16 Court to which they have signed.

17 The second point, I understand that the Court and its officers

18 have been inconvenienced, perhaps substantially, by the changes in witness

19 orders that have been happening recently, and I'm very sorry if that's

20 been the case. Of course, it's largely if not wholly circumstances

21 outside our control with the particular timetable, to which we're

22 responding, that lead to these changes but it's vital we do everything we

23 can to keep you and your staff alert.

24 I'm instituting a new procedure where I will have before you, if

25 not today, tomorrow, a list right to the end of trial of a witness order,

Page 4553

1 and whenever there's a change, even on a daily basis, we will resubmit the

2 document with, I don't know, italicised or bolded or underlined, the

3 changes; and we hope that this will reduce or avoid altogether the

4 inconvenience to which your staff has previously been subject.

5 JUDGE MAY: Tomorrow, K4.

6 MR. NICE: Yes. Ms. Romano reminds me that he is included in the

7 list of witnesses for whom the 92 bis provisions generally have been

8 sought, and I think he may now prove to be the first one of that batch to

9 whom our application relates.

10 JUDGE MAY: One matter, while it's in mind, is this, and that is

11 the formalities of Rule 92 bis should not be overlooked in these

12 submissions.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, no. I think I explained when I first

14 raised it as a possibility that of course there would be necessary

15 abbreviation of time, but I don't know if those are the formalities that

16 you had in mind.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 MR. NICE: Of course it's because of those provisions and the need

19 to abbreviate the time that we drew to your attention, to the attention of

20 the accused, that he will have been provided in advance with statements, a

21 long time in advance, to read so there can be no prejudice, and we, of

22 course, reminded you in the application that the procedure has, I think,

23 been adopted in one other Trial Chamber in any event. It's a method of

24 saving time. We commend it to you.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, there's a matter I wanted to ask you

Page 4554

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Page 4555

1 about. In relation to the testimony of the vast majority of the

2 witnesses, we have two statements. There's a first statement and then

3 there's a second statement coming much later after the first, usually much

4 closer to the trial. The accused has quite rightly been cross-examining

5 on discrepancies that arise between the two statements. I wanted to find

6 out from you what was the strategy, what was being aimed at by the

7 investigators or by the OTP in general in getting these second statements?

8 MR. NICE: It's a matter better dealt with by one of the

9 investigators or the lead investigator when he comes, because it's not

10 something which I necessarily deal with in detail. But I think the answer

11 will be along these lines: That the earlier statements may have been taken

12 as part of a general inquiry, and when the decision is made that the

13 particular witness is to be listed for a particular case, he's seen again.

14 And all too often, not only are the matters that need to be clarified in

15 relation to the original statement, but the witness himself will recall

16 and bring up other matters that need to be covered.

17 So I suspect it's a two-part process. And indeed it's in the

18 nature of events, as we discovered from the 92 bis witnesses, that

19 witnesses, at the time they're first seen, rarely remember or are reminded

20 of all matters that are material, and they frequently come to court, even

21 when 92 bis'd, with further photographs and further details that they've

22 forgotten to tell us about. And with the best of all conceivable

23 investigation techniques, it seems that this is going to carry on

24 happening. So I suspect that the second statements are usually a

25 combination of us seeking details and them remembering further material.

Page 4556

1 Ms. Romano might be going to give me a further reminder.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. NICE: And I am reminded, helpfully, that, of course, the

4 first statements were very often taken in camps of one kind or another in

5 circumstances where it is very difficult, if not possible, to expect the

6 best out of witnesses whose minds are probably concentrated on things

7 other, frankly, than trying to go about perfect recall.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps just one other matter. I'm sorry, Mr. Kay,

10 but while it's in the mind.

11 Next week we should -- we have your latest document on proposals

12 for the rest of this part of the trial - numbers of witnesses and the like

13 - and we are considering it, and we ought to have a session on it

14 sometime next week when we can find a convenient time to discuss it here.

15 MR. NICE: Yes. I think next week we're not sitting on the

16 Friday. We're sitting on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I think.

17 We have -- I'm going to be here, I think, all next week. We have

18 witnesses on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, who are substantial in time

19 probably, and content, it might be prudent not to interrupt those

20 witnesses, not to interrupt in the middle of the course of either of them.

21 There's Mr. Drewienkiewicz, who comes back just for a couple of hours, and

22 there's a witness who will probably take some time, starting after him.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will not interrupt the witnesses, and if it's

24 not possible next week, we will do it the week after, but we ought to have

25 the matter in mind.

Page 4557

1 Mr. Kay, yes.

2 MR. KAY: It's more of a point of observation. It concerns the

3 statement of Dr. Eric Baccard, served as an expert witness. My records

4 show that was served the 16th of April, and we're now the 8th of May. So

5 the 30-day period for the accused has not expired in relation to that

6 matter, which I thought the Trial Chamber ought to know since there's been

7 some criticism of him in relation to how he deals with advance notice of

8 witnesses.

9 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Let's have the witness, please.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a question.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may. A moment ago you noted

13 that tomorrow we're going to hear witness K4, and as I see, he is a

14 protected witness, according to the proposal. I see no reason for an

15 Albanian living in Kosovo to be a protected witness in this trial.

16 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We will -- before the witness gives

17 evidence, we will consider that position. You will have the opportunity

18 to make your observations then.

19 Yes.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 MR. NICE: My understanding is that K4 will no longer require

22 protective measures. I'll confirm it.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

24 MR. NICE: My further observation is that unless the Rule's been

25 changed, it's a 14-day period that is required by the accused, and that

Page 4558

1 has passed.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to sit down.

7 WITNESS: ASMAN THACI

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, for your knowledge, the evidence of the

10 witness is from the villages that you will find on page 10 and 11 of the

11 Kosovo atlas. He will mention several small villages that are on both

12 pages.

13 Examined by Ms. Romano:

14 Q. Witness, can you state your name, your full name, to the Court,

15 please?

16 A. I'm called Asman Thaci from Demjan, born 28th of March, 1941.

17 Q. Are you married, Mr. Thaci?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What's your profession?

20 A. I'm a farmer.

21 Q. Where do you live?

22 A. Demjan.

23 Q. And where is Demjan located?

24 A. Demjan is in the Has region which borders on Dedaj, Romaje, and

25 Kushin. It's in the south of Kosova.

Page 4559

1 Q. Is it in the Prizren municipality?

2 A. It's in the municipality of Gjakove.

3 Q. Mr. Thaci, you were interviewed by members of the Office of the

4 Prosecutor during the period of 10 to 13 of November, 1999; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And at that time, you gave a statement?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On 9th of March of this year, you attended a meeting where you

10 appeared before a presiding officer appointed by the Registrar of this

11 Tribunal. Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And at that time, you -- you had the opportunity to review your

14 statement. You were given a copy of your statement in the Albanian

15 language; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And after reviewing, you are able to state that the contents of

18 your statement, they are true?

19 A. True, yes.

20 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution would submit the statement under Rule

21 92 bis, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting, could you assist me in finding

23 where is the village of Demjan on the map?

24 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, the witness was born in that village,

25 but he will give evidence from the village that he passed through while he

Page 4560

1 was deported, and that's what I will mention in the summary right now.

2 But I can also help you find where he was born. If you can give me some

3 minutes to look at the map. I will read the summary first and then I will

4 locate it.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's

6 Exhibit number 140.

7 MS. ROMANO: The testimony of the witness is the following:

8 On 30 March 1999, the witness sent his family to Albania as he

9 feared for their safety. The following day, he went to the village of

10 Kojus - and that, Your Honour, you will see on page 11 - to attempt to

11 persuade his father-in-law to also leave. However, while they were

12 speaking, the village was surrounded by VJ soldiers and paramilitaries.

13 They entered the house and told everyone to leave. The witness saw the

14 paramilitaries grab his father-in-law, take him to a barn and set him

15 alight with a flame-thrower before shooting him. The witness and another

16 relative were ordered to dig a grave and bury the body. The

17 paramilitaries took the villagers' ID documents and valuables. The

18 witness also saw a man giving the paramilitaries money so they would not

19 kill him.

20 The witness joined a convoy but decided to leave it and walk to

21 the village of Lubizhde. And, Your Honours, this village is on page 11 of

22 the Kosovo atlas.

23 There, he met up with a large group of displaced persons hiding in

24 the woods. The witness remained there until 17 April 1999, when VJ

25 soldiers surrounded them, fired their weapons. The VJ soldiers executed

Page 4561

1 17 males. They separated 50 to 100 women and girls from the group, took

2 them 30 metres away and raped them in front of the displaced persons. The

3 ordeal lasted for approximately two hours, during which the women and

4 girls were slapped and verbally abused. The witness also saw a

5 14-year-old girl being raped in front of her family.

6 The VJ soldiers then took the group to the village of Dedaj, where

7 the men and the women were separated. The men were held in stables for

8 two days before being taken to the Albanian border at Morina by buses

9 arranged by the army. At the border, they were ordered to hand over their

10 ID documents.

11 No further questions, Your Honours.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true.

13 MS. ROMANO:

14 Q. Thank you, Witness.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Did you or the villagers have any contact at all

18 with the members of the Yugoslav army in the period between the 24th of

19 March to the 30th of March?

20 A. No. In our village, there was neither a headquarters nor were

21 there members of the KLA.

22 Q. I did not ask you about members of the KLA.

23 A. There were -- about 700 metres away, there were 73 tanks. There

24 were soldiers in the neighbourhood of Pnesh.

25 Q. When?

Page 4562

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Page 4563

1 A. They came at the end of May 1998.

2 Q. At the end of May 1998, you say.

3 A. True, yes.

4 Q. That means that they were already near your village for ten

5 months, ten months before the events you're describing.

6 A. And more, because on the 20th of September, 1998, they burnt

7 Demjan, Lecine, and another village.

8 Q. And so that means that you're claiming that from May 1998, there

9 was the military unit with 73 tanks and all the rest of it that you

10 enumerated. Is that right?

11 A. They were all the time there. They prepared for conflict, and

12 there were no conflicts, and it was never -- there was never any kind of

13 conflict in the two villages that are in our area.

14 Q. So that means that during that time -- all right. During that

15 time, you weren't an eyewitness to any conflicts or clashes between the

16 army, the police, or anybody else. Have I understood you correctly?

17 A. This area consists ethnically solely of Albanians. There were no

18 soldiers. Nobody was killed nor were soldiers and policemen.

19 Q. All right. In that period of time, that is to say from the 24th

20 up until the 30th of March, 1999, your village and the environments, were

21 they bombed by NATO?

22 A. There was no bombing from NATO as long as we were there. There

23 was no bombing by NATO.

24 Q. And did you see anything close by or further away, or did you hear

25 any of the bombing that took place on the 24th?

Page 4564

1 A. When we left on the 17th of April, we heard when we were near the

2 border with Albania.

3 Q. And what was it that you heard then?

4 A. There was bombing by NATO on the positions that I mentioned

5 earlier, your positions.

6 Q. So until -- from what I can see here, until the 17th of April, you

7 did not hear any bombing at all; is that it?

8 A. Are you talking about my village?

9 Q. I'm talking about you. You say that you heard the bombing for the

10 first time on the 17th of April, 1999.

11 A. When I was in Albania?

12 Q. No. I'm asking you about the time up until the 17th of April.

13 All I wanted to do was to see whether I had understood you correctly. Is

14 it correct that you said that you did not hear of any NATO bombing until

15 the 17th of April? Is that right? Is that what you said?

16 A. I said clearly -- I said very clearly, in my village, there was no

17 bombing during the time that I was there. And even after I left, from the

18 17th of April onwards, all the people had been chased away by your

19 policemen, and we were in Albania and there was nobody there.

20 Q. Very well. Let's go back to your statement. You said that you

21 sent two of your younger sons and wife and other two sons to Albania on

22 the 30th of March already and that they stayed with your relatives in

23 Albania, in Kruma. Is that right?

24 A. From the time when your Chetniks came on 29th of March, they

25 joined your forces and they burnt houses in Grexhine, and they shelled the

Page 4565

1 neighbourhood of Muhaderi, when a three-month-old child was killed --

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Thaci, I must interrupt you. We'll get on more

3 quickly if you just concentrate on the question. The question was: Is it

4 right that you sent two of your younger sons and your wife to Albania on

5 the 30th of March to stay with relatives? Is that right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I sent them to the uncle of my

7 father in Golaj in Albania. That is correct.

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. And when did your family move from Albania to Kosovo? When did it

11 come to settle there?

12 A. After the liberation. They came after Kosova was liberated. I

13 don't know when we came back, but it was after NATO ended.

14 Q. My question was a different one. You have relatives, you say -

15 your father's uncle, in fact, and other relatives - living in Kruma in

16 Albania. Is that right?

17 A. In Golaj.

18 Q. Yes. What I'm asking you now is your father's uncle lives in

19 Kruma in Albania with your other relatives then. I'm asking you: When

20 did your family come to settle in Kosovo from Albania earlier on? I don't

21 mean in this war, but when did they originally come to settle in Kosovo

22 from Albania?

23 JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of that? What does it matter?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to ascertain the identity of

25 the witness with greater precision in view of the fact that his father's

Page 4566

1 uncle lives in Albania and that he has a family and relatives there.

2 JUDGE MAY: We have that. But what does it matter when his family

3 came to Albania -- came to Kosovo?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I want to do this in order to

5 hear some -- in order to go on with my questions and to ascertain some

6 other points. If I could get an answer to my question, please. If not,

7 well ...

8 JUDGE MAY: Can you help us to that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 1949, when the border was

10 closed, we had no contact with our relatives in Albania.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. All right. And when did you establish contact again?

13 A. The first contact was on that day when we were expelled from our

14 house and we went to Albania.

15 Q. So from 1949 until 1999, you had no contact with your family in

16 Albania?

17 A. Absolutely no contacts.

18 Q. All right. And why didn't you send the rest of your family to

19 Albania when you decided to send part of the family?

20 A. You have it written very explicitly. My sons were in Montenegro.

21 They were working in a bakery there. His wife wanted -- came, but she was

22 blocked there, and my son didn't feel secure to come because he was afraid

23 he would be massacred, given the fact that usually that was the case.

24 Q. Was any member of your family a member of the KLA?

25 A. I said even earlier, in those 52 villages, there was not a single

Page 4567

1 KLA there, member or bases.

2 Q. You lived in the municipality of Djakovica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So in those 52 villages of the municipality of Djakovica, there

5 were no KLA members. That is your claim; right?

6 A. Has is divided into half is in Gjakove municipality, half in

7 Prizren municipality.

8 Q. How far away is the village of Kojus from your village?

9 A. My wife is from Kojus village, my spouse. The village is about 25

10 kilometres away.

11 Q. And how did you reach Kojus from Demjan?

12 A. In Demjan, I sheltered my family in Golaj and then I returned. I

13 went to a friend of mine when this tragedy occurred.

14 Q. But I asked you about your journey from Demjan to Kojus. How did

15 you get there?

16 A. When they expelled us, three villages, on orders from a lieutenant

17 colonel, on the 30th of March, I took my family to Albania and then

18 returned illegally in Kojusha.

19 Q. And on the road from Demjan to Kojus, did you have any problems?

20 A. From Albania to Kojusha, I travelled illegally, I'm saying.

21 Q. And when you arrived in Kojus, were there any members of the KLA

22 in the village?

23 A. No. There were none of those 52 villages of Has.

24 Q. To the best of your knowledge, how many inhabitants were in Kojus

25 at the moment when the forces of the Yugoslav army walked in?

Page 4568

1 A. Kojusha is a small village. It may have about 100 inhabitants,

2 not more than that.

3 Q. And on that day, was somebody else killed, apart from your

4 father-in-law?

5 A. My father-in-law was 80 years old. Met Kuka, 103-year-old, and

6 another old man who didn't want to leave -- an old woman whose name I

7 don't know, who didn't want to leave, they were killed.

8 Q. Did you personally see the killing of this old man and old woman,

9 the ones that you just referred to now?

10 A. I was there. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw the bullets flying

11 around.

12 Q. All right. So the answer is yes. And during these events that

13 you describe, did you talk to any of the members of the Yugoslav army?

14 A. I heard what they were saying among themselves, because we were

15 too afraid to dare speak to them.

16 Q. You mentioned some Russians.

17 A. Yes. Yes. Because I know some Russian.

18 Q. Oh, so you speak Russian.

19 A. Yes, I know Russian.

20 Q. Could you please tell us, in the briefest possible terms, about

21 the conversation that you had in the Russian language with the Russian

22 soldiers?

23 A. This seems very ridiculous. When someone knows Serbian, it's very

24 easy for one to understand Russian too.

25 JUDGE MAY: In your statement, you say, Mr. Thaci, the Russians

Page 4569

1 were giving orders to the Yugoslav army soldiers and to the

2 paramilitaries. Can you help us as to what those orders were?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were combined. They were in a

4 small number who communicated among themselves in Russian. And I heard

5 with my own ears. There were -- those three men who didn't want to leave

6 their house, I saw them when they were killed.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. I'm asking about the Russians, because you claim that there were

9 Russians there. This is a new thing. This is the first time I hear of

10 it. So I'm asking you about the Russians.

11 What did you hear? Since you claim that you know the Russian

12 language, what is this that you heard them saying?

13 A. They said, the Russians -- uh-huh. The Russians said, "We will

14 kill others," and the army didn't allow them.

15 Q. Did I understand you correctly? Did you say that these were

16 officers who were issuing orders?

17 A. I didn't see their ranks; I only saw their uniforms.

18 Q. But you said that they were issuing orders in Russian. Is that

19 right or is that not right? Did I understand you correctly?

20 A. You have been wrongly informed. They didn't give orders in

21 Russian but in Serbo-Croatian. And the conversation that several people

22 were holding had words of Russian in it, as I said before.

23 Q. Oh, I see. And how many persons were there who spoke Russian?

24 A. About four. About four to five.

25 Q. All right. You say that some of these soldiers had the intention

Page 4570

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Page 4571

1 of killing Murat Athami; is that right?

2 A. That's true. When we went on the 30th of April, 1999 to the

3 village alongside the Drin, we were stopped by some policemen and they

4 took this young man, Murat Athami, from a tractor, and the others, the

5 rest of us, were maltreated and put at a distance, at a turn in the road,

6 and we heard and saw how people produced money and saved the young man's

7 life. And this was Murat Athami.

8 Q. Did you give money to anyone for any reason?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How many people were in the convoy that left the village of Kojus?

11 A. I said Kojusha has about a hundred inhabitants, but there are

12 other villages roundabout. And we set off for Albania that day. And when

13 we got to the customs point at Morina, they took all our documents from

14 us.

15 JUDGE MAY: Can you help us as to how many people there were in

16 the convoy? That is what you were asked.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The convoy, including other

18 villagers, was a very long one, a convoy of several kilometres. I can't

19 really say how many people there were from other villages.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You say that neither the soldiers nor the members of the

22 paramilitary forces, as you call them, followed the convoy, escorted the

23 convoy; is that right?

24 A. That's true.

25 Q. And why do you claim that you were fleeing from the convoy when it

Page 4572

1 is true that nobody followed the convoy? Why flee then?

2 A. I fled after my son because other relatives had remained hidden in

3 the mountains; Zenel Thaci, Bashkim Thaci, and my son Rrustem.

4 Q. And tell me, these relatives who were in the hills, were they

5 members of the KLA?

6 A. How could they be members of the KLA? They were about 3.000

7 people; women, old men, children.

8 Q. All right. Just say no.

9 A. No.

10 Q. I meant the men, the ones you mentioned staying behind in the

11 hills. I wasn't talking about women and children. In your statement, you

12 say that you returned to your village and that you saw there that your

13 house had burned down; is that right?

14 A. That's right. The house was burned. Not only my house but all

15 the other houses.

16 Q. All right. And then you go to the woods and then you return from

17 there again to your house, you say, on the following day. Is that right?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. And why do you return yet again to your house on the very next day

20 when it had burned down?

21 A. To see where the young people were.

22 Q. And you claim that you met your son in the mountains on the 13th

23 of April and that he was with your two nephews; right?

24 A. There was a large number of people. I saw by accident my son

25 there and met him, together with Zenel and my nephew, other nephew,

Page 4573

1 Bashkim.

2 Q. And you claim that you went into the mountains because you saw

3 smoke rising; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And how do you know that these were not members of the army of

6 Yugoslavia or the police or the paramilitary forces? This is the border

7 area.

8 A. The army used to patrol with armoured cars and tanks, but it was

9 so difficult for anyone to penetrate.

10 Q. There in the mountains on the 17th of April, you say that you

11 encountered 2.000 refugees moving in a convoy towards Albania; is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Since they were moving towards Albania, why did they ask you where

15 the road to Albania was?

16 A. Because they had come from many regions of Kosova and didn't know

17 their way about, didn't know where to go. They didn't know the terrain.

18 Q. And how far away is the Albanian border from that particular

19 place?

20 A. Very far, because Pashtrik hill is quite a large area. It's about

21 2.700 metres.

22 Q. Who surrounded you then? Was it the army or the paramilitary

23 forces that you mention here?

24 A. The army and the paramilitaries surrounded us. And 17 people got

25 killed. Five from my village, from Krasniq. The others I don't know.

Page 4574

1 Q. And did the army have any losses?

2 A. When your forces came, your lieutenant colonel came, he killed two

3 soldiers.

4 Q. So you describe the following situation: Two soldiers executed 17

5 Albanians from the convoy, and that then a lieutenant colonel of the army

6 of Yugoslavia came and shot these two soldiers with a pistol and then they

7 got 50 girls and women out of the convoy and raped them right there in

8 front of you. Is that the situation that you are describing and all of

9 these things happened one after the other?

10 A. Yes. They made us eat grass for about five minutes.

11 Q. And this officer who later killed these two soldiers, where did he

12 come from?

13 A. This lieutenant colonel, he was about one kilometre away.

14 Q. You're trying to say that he reached you from that distance;

15 right?

16 A. Where he came and where he went, I can tell you even now if I see

17 that person. I know him.

18 Q. Were there any soldiers with him?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What you've been explaining now, did all of this happen one thing

21 after the other; that is to say, these two soldiers, as you say, execute

22 17 civilians, the lieutenant colonel comes, kills the two of them, and

23 then right after, that they get 50 women out of the convoy and then they

24 rape them collectively on the spot, they're a few metres away from you,

25 they make you eat grass; and you describe all of that together as a single

Page 4575

1 event that occurred right there on that very spot; is that right?

2 A. This happened before, the killing, the raping, and then the

3 eating of the grass. It was very hot. There were -- there was a large

4 crowd of people. And when this lieutenant colonel came, he killed those

5 two notorious people.

6 Q. Haven't you overdone this a bit? Have you exaggerated a bit in

7 describing everything that happened? Would you like to think about it

8 once again?

9 A. I didn't exaggerate it at all. Everything happened as I said and

10 the killing of those two soldiers came after what I had said.

11 Q. After what?

12 A. They took us from there and took us to a barn. And after a time,

13 they put us on buses. From the 17th of April, when we left to Albania, I

14 know nothing about the fate of my son or the 62 persons who were left in

15 the hands of the army.

16 Q. But you claim that you saw the killings and you saw the officer

17 who killed the soldiers and this mass rape.

18 JUDGE MAY: We have been over this. The witness has given his

19 evidence about it, you've put it to him, you've suggested he was

20 exaggerating, he denies it. I don't think that we can take this any

21 further.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. In addition to yourself and Haxhi Qerimi who you mentioned, did

25 anybody else see this mass killing and rape?

Page 4576

1 A. There were 3.000 people who experienced it. Haxhi Qerimi lost his

2 son and was wounded himself.

3 Q. And do you know what the name of this 14-year-old girl was, the

4 one that was raped by Sali Tafa?

5 A. No. I know that she was mentally ill after this event.

6 Q. Who is Sali Tafa?

7 A. He is from Kabash.

8 Q. Who is he?

9 A. He is an Albanian.

10 Q. So it was an Albanian who raped this little 14-year-old girl.

11 A. Yes. He was employed by you.

12 Q. All right. As for the rape of Albanian women and girls that you

13 describe, did other Albanian civilians take part in this? Yes or no.

14 A. I'm sorry. This is -- these are your cunning fabrications. And I

15 am not covering up either bad things --

16 JUDGE MAY: Just answer the question, if you would. It's

17 suggested, or rather, you're asked whether there were other Albanians

18 involved or not.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So it was only Sali Tafa.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. You know the name of Sali Tafa. Do you have any more

24 specific information about a single Serb soldier who took part in the

25 rape?

Page 4577

1 A. I saw this with my own eyes.

2 Q. All right. Now, are you saying that you crossed the

3 Serbian-Albanian border in a bus at the Morina border-crossing point?

4 A. I said before: On the 17th of April, they took us away with these

5 people from the place where this event took place to the pass of Morina.

6 Q. How; by bus?

7 A. By bus. By bus.

8 Q. And how far is the Morina crossing point from Djakovica?

9 A. It must be about 50 or 60 kilometres. I can't say exactly.

10 Q. I mean as the crow flies, not taking the road. As the crow flies.

11 In a straight line.

12 A. I'm in no position to know how far that is.

13 Q. And is it true that you stayed in Kosovo until the end of the war,

14 or did you return to Albania?

15 A. I told you: With these people from Lubizhde in Prizren

16 municipality, we came out on the 17th of April, and we were expelled, and

17 we stayed in Golaj.

18 Q. And you didn't return to Kosovo before the war ended. Have I

19 understood you correctly?

20 A. I didn't go back until NATO ended.

21 Q. When you crossed the border at Morina, did anybody ask you for any

22 ID papers?

23 A. From everybody, yes.

24 Q. Did they take your ID papers away or did they keep them?

25 A. They took them away from everybody.

Page 4578

1 Q. And when did you return to Kosovo ultimately?

2 A. I've told you three times. I told you three times: After NATO

3 entered.

4 Q. All right. Thank you for that.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay.

6 MR. KAY: No thank you.

7 MS. ROMANO: Yes, Your Honour. I have a couple of questions. Can

8 I proceed right now or --

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

10 MS. ROMANO: First to clarify, Your Honour, question about the

11 location, all the villages mentioned, they are on page 10, on the bottom

12 of page 10. You found them?

13 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

14 Q. Mr. Thaci, awhile ago you said that some of the soldiers were

15 speaking in the Russian language. Were they wearing uniforms?

16 A. They had the same uniform as the Serbian army.

17 Q. Did you recognise any of the people? Did you know any of the

18 people speaking in the Russian language?

19 A. I saw them there for the first time, and I never saw them again.

20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Thaci, Sali Tafa, the Albanian person who raped

21 the 14-year-old girl, he was an Albanian and he was a civilian; is that

22 correct?

23 A. He was with the Serbian forces although he was an Albanian.

24 Q. Was he helping or working with the Serbian forces?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 4579

1 Q. In which capacity? What was he doing?

2 A. He was an employee of the Serbian Secret Service.

3 Q. Mr. Thaci, you also said that you went to the Albanian border by

4 bus. Who provided the bus?

5 A. The Serbian army brought it to us.

6 Q. And after they brought the buses, what happened?

7 A. We hadn't any problems as we went straight to the border crossing

8 with Albania.

9 MS. ROMANO: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Thaci, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

11 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

22 WITNESS: XHEVAHIRE RRAHMANI

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano, we've had a request from the Trial Chamber

25 that comes in the afternoon that we finish on time in future. Of course,

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Page 4581

1 we take note of it. We ought to try and get this witness through, if we

2 can, before quarter to.

3 MS. ROMANO: I will do my best, Your Honour. For this witness,

4 the Kosovo atlas page 6, and her testimony includes the municipality of

5 Vucitrn and Glogovac.

6 Examined by Ms. Romano:

7 Q. Witness, can you please tell the Court your full name.

8 A. Xhevahire Rrahmani.

9 Q. How old are you, Witness?

10 A. I was born in 1966.

11 Q. Are you married?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And do you have children?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where were you born?

16 A. In Dubofc.

17 Q. And in which municipality is Dubofc located?

18 A. Vushtrri.

19 Q. And during 1999, where did you live?

20 A. In Bukosh.

21 Q. And that's also in the Vucitrn municipality?

22 A. Vushtrri municipality; that's right.

23 Q. Ms. Rrahmani, you were interviewed by members of the Office of the

24 Prosecutor during the period between the 14th to the 20th of October,

25 2000. Do you remember that?

Page 4582

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you remember giving a statement to the members of the office?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And on 8th of March this year, you attended a meeting and appeared

5 before an appointed officer, appointed presiding officer of this Tribunal,

6 and you had the opportunity to review your statement. Do you remember

7 that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you were provided with a copy of the statement in the Albanian

10 language; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution submits the statement into evidence.

13 The witness will testify about the following: She's a Kosovo

14 Albanian who lived in the village of Bukos in the Vucitrn municipality.

15 On 26 March 1999, the witness and her family went to the village

16 of Kozica in the Srbica municipality. Serb soldiers shelled the village

17 and started to burn the houses. The men fled to the mountains and the

18 women were herded into a room in the house where they were robbed. The

19 witness then went to Glogovac for ten days before returning to Kozica

20 where she stayed until the village was again shelled by Serb forces. The

21 VJ entered the village and rounded up the women and children who were

22 there. They were kept in a house for two days before a group of

23 approximately 27 women were escorted to Cirez by some of the Serb

24 soldiers.

25 On arrival at Cirez, the women were handed over to other soldiers

Page 4583

1 who took the women to a barn. The soldiers robbed the women and then took

2 them out, one by one, to be searched. The witness spoke to the first

3 woman who had been searched and she told the witness that she had been

4 stripped naked by the soldiers.

5 One of the soldiers removed the witness from the barn. He touched

6 her breasts and asked the witness to select a house where they could go

7 and have sexual intercourse. The soldier harassed the witness with

8 improper questions, showing his male organ. The witness was allowed to

9 return to the barn without anything happening to her. The witness

10 believes that many of the women and girls were raped. Five young women

11 and three older women, one of whom was her mother, did not return.

12 The eight women who did not return with them were subsequently

13 found dead in the wells in -- in some wells in Cirez.

14 That's all, Your Honours.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the statement will

16 be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit number 141.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Since when have you been living in the village of

20 Bukos?

21 A. Since I was married. That's 13 years ago.

22 Q. How many houses did your village have?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. What was the situation like with respect to security and safety

25 during 1998 and the first three months of 1999 in your village and in the

Page 4584

1 nearby villages?

2 A. We were never left in peace, but we fled in order to avert worse.

3 Q. I asked you about 1998 and the first three months of 1999. Were

4 there any KLA members before the NATO aggression in your village, and did

5 they attack the inhabitants of your village?

6 A. There was no KLA in Bukosh village.

7 Q. And do you remember an incident that took place on the 22nd of

8 February, 1999, in your village, the village of Bukos, when members of the

9 KLA killed two young men, Serbs, the Milosevic brothers, at their doorstep

10 before the eyes of their parents? Do you remember that taking place?

11 A. I heard it on the television, but I was not there and I don't know

12 anything about it.

13 Q. Well, that happened in your village. And what about this other

14 thing the next day? Do you remember that, when the OSCE observers of the

15 Kosovo Verification Mission and numerous journalists visited that place

16 with a police escort? Do you remember that?

17 A. I don't remember. These things did happen, but I don't know.

18 Q. It happened on the 22nd of February, the killing of those two

19 young men. And the villagers, on the next day, that is to say, the Kosovo

20 Verification Mission was there the next day, and the KLA shot at members

21 of the mission too. Do you remember that? Did you hear the shooting in

22 your village at all, both on the 22nd and on the 23rd of February?

23 A. On 22nd of February in the evening, we left the house because

24 there was fighting in the village, and there were forces there, but we

25 didn't know what was going on.

Page 4585

1 Q. Well, on the 22nd, the KLA killed these two young men in your

2 village. So you don't know anything about --

3 JUDGE MAY: No need to repeat that. She says she heard it on the

4 television and that's all.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. And do you know about a Serb lady by the name of Velika Vucetic

7 from the neighbouring village of Taradza, who was kidnapped, raped by the

8 KLA, and died as a result of burning, together with her daughter Milica?

9 Do you know about that event taking place?

10 A. No, I don't know.

11 Q. And do you know of another occurrence where members of the KLA --

12 JUDGE MAY: What is the point of this? This witness gives very

13 serious evidence indeed about events which occurred to her, serious crimes

14 are alleged to have been committed against her, and you're cross-examining

15 about totally different matters. What's the point of this if it's not

16 simply to try and score off the witness in some way in a tit for tat?

17 What you should be concentrating on is what the witness gave in evidence

18 and the serious allegations which are involved there.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. Her statement includes the

20 allegation that for the last 13 years prior to the NATO aggression, she

21 lived in the village of Bukos. And as in the village of Bukos some very

22 serious crimes took place, as she lived there for 13 years, as it is a

23 village and not a large town, it is logical for me to ask her about the

24 circumstances in which these -- the events which she says happened to her

25 took place.

Page 4586

1 JUDGE MAY: It sounds to me as though you're simply trying to put

2 matters to her, allegations of other crimes instead of concentrating on

3 those that there were.

4 It's alleged that there were crimes in the village before the

5 events you've described in your statement. Do you know anything about

6 these other crimes?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was looking after my

8 children. I didn't take an interest in these things.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, there is your answer. In due course,

10 if you wish, you can put evidence about it, if it's relevant, about these

11 other matters, but you should concentrate on cross-examining this witness

12 about the things which she knows about.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said that she herself had said

14 that she had lived in the village of Bukos for 13 years. So that is

15 sufficient grounds for me to ask her about the goings-on in the village of

16 Bukos.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Did you know Xhamil Pllana, an Albanian from your village, from

19 the village of Bukos? An Albanian. Xhamil Pllana is his name.

20 A. No, I don't know of such a name.

21 Q. And have you perhaps heard that the man was killed by the KLA on

22 the 4th of April, precisely in your village, the village of Bukos?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And how far is the village Mijalic from the village of Bukos?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 4587

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we are concerned about this line of

3 cross-examination. Are you trying to say that the actions about which the

4 witness has given evidence and has made a statement, against the women in

5 series, are you trying to say that those actions were in some way in

6 self-defence? Otherwise, what possible relevance can it have to her

7 evidence? Or is this a possibility: That these actions against the women

8 in Celine were in revenge from what you say happened?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course not. Of course not.

10 Because the alleged actions could not have been an act of self-defence, of

11 course. But I'm speaking about the events which took place in the village

12 in which this witness lived. And I'd like to remind you and the witness

13 of part of her statement relating, for example -- for example -- to quote

14 an example, to the existence of members of the Black Hand. She says, "I

15 heard somebody mention the Black Hand when the killing took place in

16 Likoshane, Glogovac municipality in February 1998," and so on and so

17 forth. So she speaks about events in the neighbouring municipality, and a

18 moment ago she just said that she knows nothing about what went on in her

19 village because she was looking after her family. Now, if she knows

20 nothing about what took place in her village because she was looking after

21 her family --

22 JUDGE MAY: Why don't you ask her again about the Black Hand? You

23 can ask about that.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am saying that the witness, on one

25 page, says she knows nothing except things about her family, whereas at

Page 4588

1 the same time, she states that she knew what went on in the neighbouring

2 villages. So it is logical for me to --

3 JUDGE MAY: Why don't you ask her about the Black Hand and just

4 move on from putting these allegations.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand, Mr. May, whether

6 you don't like me doing the cross-examination here, whether it bothers

7 you, or whether you're going to tell me what I should ask the witnesses.

8 JUDGE MAY: No. You will cross-examine properly, and you will be

9 limited to that. Now, move on.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. In your statement, and that's on page 1, you say that two days

12 after NATO began the bombing on the 26th of March, 1999, "I left my house

13 together with my husband and children, as well as my brother-in-law by the

14 name of Bajram and his wife Mihrije and their five children. We all went

15 to the village of Kozica, which is where we stayed for three nights."

16 My question is as follows: Because of what NATO operations did,

17 did you decide to leave your village and seek refuge in the village of

18 Kozica?

19 A. Yes. That day, we were in Vushtrri, it was bombed. Some people

20 were killed. We left the place. We went home. We were afraid to stay on

21 because of the Serb police and militia who were stationed nearby our

22 house, and we went to Kozhnice village.

23 Q. And did you see the bombing of Vucitrn?

24 A. There was shelling, in fact, of Vushtrri.

25 Q. In your statement, you also say, in mentioning the shellings of

Page 4589

1 Serb soldiers, that seven people were killed. They tried to administer

2 first aid to the wounded, and a doctor was with them. Now, who attempted

3 to give -- administer first aid to the wounded, and what doctor, whose

4 doctor, which doctor?

5 A. I don't know. I know they were Serb soldiers. I don't know the

6 name.

7 Q. Can you identify the people who were killed?

8 A. There was a woman who left behind a small child, from Kozhnice

9 village. I don't know her name. There were also some others; an old

10 woman, a young man. There were about ten, seven, eight, or ten

11 altogether. I didn't want my children to see what was happening and went

12 a little further.

13 Q. These Serb soldiers who tried -- these Serb soldiers who tried to

14 help the wounded, did they help the wounded Serbs or the wounded

15 Albanians?

16 A. First they shelled us, and they tried to provide the first aid to

17 who remained alive.

18 Q. In your statement, you said: "Three days later, the Serb forces

19 shelled the village, and then all the men took to the mountains, Mount

20 Cicavica, in fact." Can you explain why all the men went to Cicavica

21 mountain and left the women and children in the village of Kozica?

22 A. Because they were afraid that if they were found there, they would

23 have been killed.

24 Q. Over the next ten days, from Mount Cicavica, could you hear

25 explosions or shooting?

Page 4590

1 A. No. They shelled, but I don't know from Cicavica.

2 Q. After staying in Glogovac, and you say you stayed there for ten

3 days, you stated, "After that, we went back to Kozica because we had no

4 food. When I went back to Kozica I found my husband there." Then you go

5 on to say: "All the men came down from the mountain and met us there."

6 My question is the following: Did your husband Xhavid tell you

7 what he was doing during those ten days with all the men on Mount

8 Cicavica? Did you ask him that?

9 A. They stayed there because they felt safer there.

10 Q. What made them come back, then, if they were safer there? Why

11 would they want to return to the village of Kozica?

12 A. To get food supplies.

13 Q. On page 2, you talk about the uniforms of the Yugoslav army. You

14 say dark-green/light-green uniforms, and then you say, "They were probably

15 regular soldiers belonging to the Yugoslav army." That is a quotation

16 from your statement. Do you maintain that today? Do you still say that

17 that was a description of the uniform worn by the Yugoslav army?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On page 4, you say that the soldiers' conduct towards you was

20 proper when you were in Durmishi's house, that they brought you food, they

21 brought you clothing, and that they gave you some medicines for your sick

22 daughter. Is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Can you describe the uniforms that those 25 soldiers were wearing?

25 You said there were approximately that number. What were they wearing?

Page 4591

1 A. The soldiers were dressed in green uniforms.

2 Q. Camouflage, patterned uniforms, or just green?

3 A. I didn't understand the question. You mean in Cirez or in

4 Kozhnice village?

5 Q. I'm thinking about those soldiers, the soldiers that helped you,

6 who brought you the food, the water, and the medicines for your daughter.

7 What kind of uniforms were they wearing? You said they wore green

8 uniforms. Now I'm asking you whether a plain green or did they have some

9 patterns on them?

10 A. Green.

11 Q. Now, the soldier who told you to go to Cirez, when he advised you

12 to do that, was he speaking in Serbian or in Albanian?

13 A. There was a young girl who knew the language. Her name was

14 Miridite. She talked with him, and then she told us that they were going

15 to send us to Cirez. We were sitting in two rooms on the first floor.

16 From there, they took us to Cirez. The second room -- those who were in

17 the second room left after three, four days.

18 Q. This young girl, did she tell you what the man had suggested, that

19 is, to go to Cirez? Did she say that it sounded like a threat or like a

20 well-intentioned piece of advice? Can you make the difference between the

21 two?

22 A. No. She merely told us that, "You will be the first to leave, and

23 then we will follow soon after, two or three days." Because the Serb

24 soldier had told her that a war will take place in Cicavica and, "You will

25 be safer there."

Page 4592

1 Q. And during those two days, apart from the soldier, did you notice

2 any officers?

3 A. In the yard of the house where we were staying, there were some.

4 They had some ranks. I don't know what kind of ranks those were, but,

5 yes, there were.

6 Q. So you -- you're not able to say what rank these officers held; is

7 that right?

8 A. No, I can't. But the fact is that they had those epaulettes with

9 stars. I don't know. They had some bands on their arms.

10 Q. Now, with respect to what the soldier said, that your group should

11 move to Cirez and the fact that Miridite didn't give the reasons for this,

12 did you ask any of the soldiers or officer who were in command of those

13 soldiers the reasons for that, why you had to go? When I say "you," I

14 don't mean just you personally but anybody from your group, including you.

15 A. No. We didn't know how to talk with them, those soldiers.

16 Q. On page 5, you say that three soldiers escorted you to the village

17 of Cirez and that there, there were ten soldiers, you say, in brown/black

18 camouflage uniforms and that one of them had five stars on his shoulder;

19 is that right?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. Are you sure these were brown/black camouflage uniforms and that

22 this man had five stars on his shoulder?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Did anybody ever say to you that there were no such

25 ranks in the army with five stars and these brown/black camouflage

Page 4593

1 uniforms? Even after that, if you talked to somebody about it, did

2 anybody ever say that to you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. On page 6 of your statement, you say that you were taken out one

5 by one, all of you who were in the barn, except for Ajete Ademi and

6 Bukurije Ademi, and you say that one of the soldiers -- well, you give a

7 kind of a description of a solder. You say he was tall, about two metres,

8 shaved head but that he was blond, he wore the same kind of uniform like

9 everybody else. "I did not notice any insignia or rank."

10 This blonde soldier, is that the same soldier that you describe on

11 page 7 as the blonde man who kept talking Albanian to you? You stated, as

12 far as he's concerned, "He pretended not to be him but we recognised his

13 voice and his blonde hair." Is it one and the same man?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'm not sure what your answer is. Yes what? Yes, it is the same

16 soldier?

17 A. Yes, the same soldier.

18 Q. Was he an Albanian?

19 A. No, he wasn't an Albanian, but he spoke Albanian.

20 Q. And tell me now, on the basis of what did you conclude that

21 Lumnije, Zahide, Bukurije, Mirishahe, et cetera - the five girls you

22 mentioned - that they were raped when they were taken out of the barn,

23 although you say here, I'm quoting your words: "I did not hear a single

24 one of them when they took them out. I could not see what was happening

25 to them."

Page 4594

1 How did you conclude that when none of them had said that to you,

2 according to your very own statement?

3 A. Because of what they said to us and how they looked. I realised

4 that they hadn't been -- that they had been maltreated in this way. And

5 some of them were killed later.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues]... say that to you?

7 A. No, they didn't tell me, but the young girl, Zahide Xhema, whom I

8 talked to after the soldiers who had brought us to the barn came back,

9 said to us, "Oh, dear. Oh, God. What has happened to us? In whose hands

10 have we fallen?"

11 Q. Tell me, please, the soldiers in the village of Kozica, where you

12 went to later, didn't they ask you anything about these strange allegedly

13 soldiers from Cirez? Didn't they ask you who these soldiers were, what

14 kind of uniforms they had, et cetera?

15 A. They asked us, but they knew into whose hands they had put us.

16 The soldiers who had escorted us to Cirez were still there when we

17 returned from Kozhnice. They were in front of a house but not Aberdin's

18 [phoen], lower down. And they said to the women that the soldiers who had

19 escorted us didn't want to meet them.

20 I just wanted to tell him what happened to us, but he went inside.

21 He didn't want to talk to me.

22 Q. A little while ago, you said that you could not talk to them

23 because you didn't speak the language. In which language did you wish to

24 speak to them?

25 A. I wanted to say to him in sign language, in any possible way, that

Page 4595

1 I wanted to tell him, "You sent us there, and you know what happened to

2 those girls and to my mother as well."

3 Q. But I understood your statement - this is on page 8 - to mean that

4 they asked you who these soldiers were and what kind of uniforms they had.

5 Do you know why they asked you that?

6 A. Yes. They asked us. In the afternoon, they took us, those -- the

7 other soldiers, not the first ones, and took us again to Cirez. When we

8 arrived there, I beckoned to one of the soldiers, telling him, "This is

9 where they took those girls away." But he said to me, "Move on. Move on.

10 I know."

11 Q. Please. Please, let us do this carefully. Isn't that an answer,

12 that the soldiers of the regular army of Yugoslavia that you were in

13 contact with - you were describing it just now - that they had their

14 doubts as to what kind of a formation this was, these people in Cirez who

15 were introducing themselves as belonging to some kind of an army. And

16 then, together with you, they went back to Cirez to see what had happened

17 to the women and girls. Is that right or is that not right?

18 A. Yes. They returned, but they didn't want us to tell them exactly

19 what happened or where those girls were taken to. They took us to another

20 house belonging to someone called Sherif - I don't know the surname - in

21 Cirez village.

22 Q. And during the three weeks in Cirez, as you say, didn't these

23 soldiers bring you food, flour for you to bake bread, diapers for the

24 children? Isn't that right?

25 A. They brought us bread, brought us diapers for the children. There

Page 4596

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16

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18

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Page 4597

1 was a storehouse with humanitarian aid nearby, and they did bring the

2 supplies to us.

3 Q. And now after three weeks spent in Cirez, the soldiers told you to

4 go to Glogovac because Cirez would be attacked; is that right?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. What did they say to you? Who would attack Cirez? Who was

7 expected to attack?

8 A. They said to us that it -- there will be shelling and we want to

9 take you to Gllogoc and, from there, to go to Macedonia.

10 Q. And did they say to you then that over there, nearby in Cicavica,

11 that there was a major concentration of the KLA and that there would be

12 intensive war operations there in that area of yours? Did they explain

13 that to you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you left that particular place so that you would not be exposed

16 to war operations that were expected to take place.

17 A. Yes. They told us that, that supposedly we would send you to

18 Macedonia, and that's what happened. And they went. I don't know how

19 buses went in our group, but we didn't go.

20 Q. All right.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay. Ms. Romano.

23 MS. ROMANO: Just one question, Your Honour.

24 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

25 Q. Witness, when asked awhile ago, you said that on the 26th of

Page 4598

1 March, when you left your village, you were afraid to stay home because of

2 the Serb forces and militia which were stationed nearby your house. Why

3 were you afraid of them? What were they doing that made you afraid?

4 A. In Bukosh, in the yards -- in the yard of a house, they killed

5 someone called Islam. He was about 50, 55 years old. I don't know his

6 surname. And also Hyseni, and also a young -- an only son. They killed

7 him in the yard of a house, and so we were scared.

8 Q. You were scared that that could happen to you as well?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness.

11 MS. ROMANO: That's all, Your Honours.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Rrahmani, thank you for coming to the

14 International Tribunal to give your evidence. It is now concluded, and

15 you're free to go.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

19 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours. The Prosecution will call

20 Mr. Abullah Salihu.

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Saxon, we've got quarter of an hour. We could

22 make a start, at least, and you could call the witness and introduce him,

23 and then we'll have cross-examination tomorrow morning.

24 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour. Thank you. And I believe

25 Ms. Romano has one item she'd like to raise with the Chamber.

Page 4599

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano, would you like to raise it?

2 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, I would just like to confirm that the

3 witness K4 won't require any protective measures for tomorrow. And in

4 relation to his statements, they are in the process of being attested

5 under Rule 92 bis right now and will be served mid or late this afternoon.

6 The witness also, when he arrived this afternoon, he gave

7 additional information amplifying the facts that was in the first two

8 statements, and this new material in any form, a statement or notes, will

9 be served as soon as possible.

10 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Saxon. Perhaps you can help us

11 with the atlas while we're waiting.

12 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour. The next witness --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. SAXON: I apologise. The next witness will deal with events

15 that are related to pages 05 and 06 of the Kosovo atlas.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

21 WITNESS: ABDULLAH SALIHU

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Examined by Mr. Saxon:

24 Q. Sir, is your name Abullah Salihu?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4600

1 Q. Mr. Salihu, were you born on the 17th of January, 1954?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you born in the village of Baks in the municipality of

4 Skenderaj in Kosovo?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is the municipality -- excuse me. Is the village of Baks located

7 about 11 kilometres to the east of the town of Skenderaj?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Salihu, did you provide a statement to members of the Office

10 of the Prosecutor on the 24th of October in the year 2000?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And was this statement about events that you witnessed and

13 experienced in Kosovo in 1999?

14 A. Yes, it was.

15 Q. And in March of this year, the 12th of March, 2002, in the village

16 of Baks, were you provided with a copy of the statement that you made in

17 October of 2000 in the presence of members of the Office of the Prosecutor

18 and a presiding officer appointed by the Registrar of this Tribunal?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And at that time, did you attest that the copy of the statement

21 provided to you was true and correct?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Recently, in conversations with members of the Office of the

24 Prosecutor, have you become aware of an error in your statement?

25 A. Yes. I became aware there was an error. It was 200.000 instead

Page 4601

1 of 20.

2 Q. Mr. Salihu, just let me ask you some questions so we can get

3 through this quickly and clearly, please.

4 Let's talk about that error. I believe it's on page 2 of your

5 statement, the first page that contains actual text. And in the fourth

6 paragraph of that page, in the middle, there is a sentence that reads like

7 this: "At the end of the two days' offensive, about 200.000 people were

8 gathered in Cicavica." Should that number be 20.000 rather than 200.000?

9 A. Yes, it should be 20.000.

10 Q. So that sentence should read: "At the end of the two days'

11 offensive, about 20.000 people were gathered in Cicavica"?

12 A. That is correct.

13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm informed that we don't have copies to

14 provide to you at this time, so I'm not going to offer this statement as

15 an exhibit at this time. I will do that tomorrow morning, first thing.

16 Will you allow me, please, simply to use the time to read the summary of

17 this witness's evidence?

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. SAXON: Mr. Salihu serves as imam in the village of Baks where

20 he has lived all of his life. He is married with four children. In his

21 statement, Mr. Salihu describes the first two-day Serb offensive in his

22 area in September of 1998 which covered the area of Gllogoc up to

23 Skenderaj. During this offensive, many houses in the village of Baks were

24 set on fire and most villagers left for the Cicavica mountains.

25 About 20.000 people from the villages of this area gathered in

Page 4602

1 Cicavica, and the witness estimated that 180 to 190 persons from this area

2 died in that offensive.

3 Mr. Salihu estimates that 80 per cent of the population from that

4 area then spent the winter in accommodation provided by international

5 organisations.

6 After the OSCE withdrew from Kosovo in March 1999, paramilitaries

7 and regular VJ soldiers with heavy armaments were deployed in the village

8 of Cirez and Baks until June 1999. Mr. Salihu describes how the shelling

9 by these Serb forces compelled people residing in the area to seek shelter

10 in the woods.

11 On the 29th of April, 1999, the Serbs launched a new offensive in

12 the area. They shelled and surrounded the woods at a place called Fush e

13 Molles where many civilians were hiding. Mr. Salihu tells how he and 11

14 others were captured by paramilitary soldiers, beaten and made to lie down

15 on the ground and threatened that a tank would then drive over them. Due

16 to NATO planes flying overhead at that time, the tank withdrew, and Mr.

17 Salihu's group eventually joined other captured men and were marched off

18 to the mosque in Cirez.

19 Mr. Salihu was beaten, along with others, in the yard of the

20 mosque. Mr. Salihu was one of 176 civilian men who were then forced

21 inside the mosque, which had been burnt during a previous offensive.

22 On the 30th of April, 1999, the detained men were beaten and lined

23 up. One Serb military officer in charge said that he was looking for a

24 certain Bosnian man named Mirsad. He accused the witness, Mr. Salihu, of

25 being this person, beat him and threatened him with a pistol. Other

Page 4603

1 detainees were also beaten at that time.

2 Mr. Salihu was then ordered into a truck, one of three trucks, and

3 taken to a place called Shavarina. Here Mr. Salihu saw between 27 and 30

4 persons taken off the first truck, lined up and machine-gunned into a pit.

5 After these executions, a military jeep arrived and the two remaining

6 trucks of captured men continued on to Gllogoc. On arrival at the police

7 station in Gllogoc, Mr. Salihu was severely beaten, leaving him with

8 broken ribs, a swollen knee, and legs. His group of captured men was then

9 placed inside the Gllogoc cinema.

10 Mr. Salihu describes how, on the second day in that cinema, a man

11 from his group was executed by a paramilitary who selected whoever he

12 wanted to to kill from that group. The next day, Mr. Salihu described

13 how, when facing a wall, he heard shots behind him and how he was later

14 ordered to put the body of a dead person in a burnt house.

15 Mr. Salihu was kept at the police station for six days and beaten

16 daily, and interrogated for information about the KLA. He and others

17 captured with him and detained had no food for six days.

18 On the seventh day, military trucks collected Mr. Salihu and other

19 men where they were taken to the village of Bukos where he and others were

20 forced to work for VJ reserve forces. He was able to return home when

21 Serb forces withdrew from Kosovo.

22 Thank you.

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Salihu, we have to adjourn now for the day. We'll

24 ask you to come back tomorrow morning at 9.00 to conclude your evidence.

25 Would you remember during the adjournment not to speak to anybody about

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1 your evidence, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now until 9.00 tomorrow.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of May,

6 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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