Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5156

1 Tuesday, 21 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tanic, I hear that -- from the registry that

7 you've asked to say something. The short answer is this, that the way

8 that this examination of witnesses occurs here is by question and answer

9 from the parties, and we don't on the whole allow statements from

10 witnesses. But there will come a time at the end when the Prosecution

11 will re-examine, and that may be an opportunity for you to add something

12 which you wanted to add. Meanwhile, Mr. Milosevic's time is limited, and

13 therefore we don't think it right to take it up in any other way.

14 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

18 Q. [Interpretation] At the beginning of your statement, you expound

19 the reasons for which you are testifying, and then roughly speaking, in

20 the roughest of terms, you set out six points, six basic points on which

21 you base this: Personal experience in your negotiations with the Kosovo

22 Albanians; second, that you were liaison officer between the Western

23 countries and the Yugoslav government; third, the knowledge that you

24 gained over the past five years during your many contacts with individuals

25 who worked directly under Slobodan Milosevic; fourth, in your professional

Page 5157

1 relationship with the State Security Service and intensive cooperation

2 with Zoran Mijatovic and Jovica Stanisic; and fifth, from your relations

3 with Dusan Mihajlovic, the president of the party, whom you mentioned most

4 frequently here as an individual that was included in all this activity.

5 And also Dusan Mitevic, as you describe him, a former leader of the Radio

6 Television Serbia stations, at one time a key negotiator and close friend

7 and associate of Milosevic, who Milosevic believed and trusted most, and

8 Momcilo Perisic, whom on page 20 you quote as being a man for whom you say

9 that, "most of my information as to the activities of the state commission

10 comes from Perisic." That's what you say on page 20. And as far as I can

11 see, we have the key individuals whom you mention and refer to except for

12 Dusan Mihajlovic, and we'll come to him later on. Perisic and Mijatovic;

13 Mijatovic as a man whom I believed in most, as you claim here on page 1,

14 and Perisic, the other man whom you talked to.

15 Now, in this connection, do you know when Mitevic was replaced as

16 the director of Radio Television Serbia? Do you know when that took

17 place?

18 A. No, I don't know exactly, but I do know that it was quite some

19 years ago.

20 Q. In 1991, actually. Now, do you know that at the presidential

21 elections in Serbia in 1993, that my main adversary, the candidate that

22 opposed me, was the premier at the time, Milan Panic, who was an American

23 and who lost the elections to me in 1993 in the first round of the

24 elections in fact. Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5158

1 Q. Do you remember who the head of the election headquarters was for

2 Milan Panic and who worked to promote him in the elections?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was that in fact Dusan Mijatovic?

5 A. Yes. But he was your friend.

6 Q. Very well. So you claim -- you're saying here that I trusted

7 somebody who was the head of the electoral campaign headquarters of my

8 opposing candidate that was replaced already in 1991. And do you know

9 that Dusan Mijatovic, of course under another name, also wrote a book

10 against me but he received 6.000 marks for it, and now as far as I heard,

11 you got 5.000 euros, so I think they seem to value you more than him. Do

12 you know about that?

13 A. There are other records that say that he was your personal

14 negotiator and friend after that.

15 Q. What was it that he negotiated in my name and on my behalf? Who

16 did negotiate with?

17 A. Together with Milan Panic, he prepared the peace agreement in

18 Dayton, and with the United States of America. And this went exclusively

19 from our part -- on our part, the preparations went via Mr. Panic and via

20 Mr. Mijatovic. When the preparations were concluded, then, of course, you

21 were the main person after that.

22 Q. You've been misinformed by someone about that as well but let's

23 not go into that now. It is quite clear who you are referring to.

24 Now, do you know when you're speaking about Momcilo Perisic that

25 Momcilo Perisic is a general and one time head of the General Staff and

Page 5159

1 that this year, in fact a few months ago, was arrested as a spy by the

2 present government and authorities, as an American spy together with an

3 American representative, and this took place in a motel on the Ibarska

4 Road. Do you know about that?

5 A. I read that in the papers. I can't comment on something that I

6 wasn't able to see. I wasn't in the country and wasn't able to follow

7 current events.

8 Q. So your source of information is the Panic head of staff, and this

9 person that is being held accountable for espionage against his own

10 country. Very well.

11 A. If somebody is a spy, it doesn't mean he's not saying the truth,

12 and they weren't my main sources of information, they were only additional

13 ones, as it says in my statement.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please be asked to make

15 pauses between question and answer. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MAY: Both of you are asked to make pauses. Would you

17 remember, Mr. Milosevic in particular, the interpreters.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You're saying that we would meet in the cabinet of Mira Markovic

21 or, rather, my wife. You never met my wife; is that true or not?

22 A. It is not true. I did have a meeting with your wife. Of course

23 not in her capacity as your wife but in her capacity as the president of

24 the head department of administration of JUL, the JUL party.

25 Q. Do you have any proof of that, any evidence to bear that out?

Page 5160

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What kind? Let's hear it.

3 A. The meeting took place with Mr. Martin Lutz, Mrs. Mira Markovic.

4 Mr. Martin Lutz is a representative of Carl Bildt. He was there and so

5 was I, and the meeting was devoted to the question of opening up a

6 headquarters for the European Union in Kosovo. There are minutes about

7 that and I think that Mr. Lutz would be able to testify, if you challenge

8 this.

9 Q. Well, I challenge any relationship between you and her. Now,

10 whether you were an escort to somebody, whether you accompanied somebody

11 and whether somebody should say whether a meeting actually took place and

12 who accompanied the people attending, I hope you agree that that is quite

13 by the way; it is not a main matter, it is a secondary element. Is that

14 right?

15 A. I wasn't only accompanying Mr. Martin Lutz. I wasn't an escort.

16 I had an active part at the meeting, and even if I was in his escorting

17 party, this does not show anything.

18 Q. This doesn't prove anything but let's move on. Furthermore, you

19 say that you had meetings with Stanisic, head of the State Security

20 Service. On page 4, paragraph 2, it says, "I met with Stanisic but I

21 never found myself in a situation with Stanisic when other people were

22 there." That's what you say, isn't that right? And then you go on to say

23 that you informed Milan Milutinovic and so on and so forth. Is that right

24 or is it not?

25 A. The interpretation wasn't correct. I said I saw -- the

Page 5161

1 translation is incorrect. I said I saw Stanisic and not met him. It is

2 quite clear that I met Zoran Mijatovic and his deputy and head of the SDB

3 service for Belgrade. I just said I saw Stanisic.

4 Q. Right. So you had no relationship with Stanisic, in fact, did

5 you?

6 A. I did have relations with Jovica Stanisic but not in the sense of

7 getting personal instructions from him or having meetings with him. I had

8 a professional relationship with Mr. Stanisic by his deputy, who was

9 Mr. Zoran Mijatovic, and he was also the head of the SDB service for

10 Belgrade, that is to say, the second man in security service, and this

11 wasn't correctly translated. It just said that we saw each other on two

12 or three occasions at a reception of some kind.

13 Q. We'll come to the translation later on. I have the English

14 version in front of me and I saw that there was nothing incorrect there in

15 that translation so that you can't use that as a pretext, that is

16 unacceptable. And I am going to take note of it and we'll see about it

17 later on, whether we can accept this. We'll compare the two translations,

18 in fact, in due course. Very well.

19 A. At all events, I did have a professional relationship with

20 Stanisic as Stanisic, as the head of the service, was the sole person who

21 could authorise what his number 2 man did, and that is how you should

22 interpret my statement. I said quite clearly that I never received

23 personal instructions from Mr. Stanisic but a relationship did exist in

24 the sense that I have just said, that is to say, in a professional sense.

25 Q. At the end of the third paragraph on page 4, you say that the

Page 5162

1 written analyses about his tasks were elaborated. "I elaborated in

2 cooperation with other members of the SDB." You, therefore, elaborated

3 analyses in cooperation with other members of the SDB, as you say. Now --

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, we couldn't follow your -- the

5 reference to the page numbers. Could you clarify the page number again.

6 You said you were looking at the English version.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm looking at the Serbian version

8 now but I mentioned the English text because I compared the two. I

9 compared his reference to a poor translation. There is no poor

10 translation. It's quite all right. And in the Serbian version, on page

11 4, at the end of the paragraph in the middle of the page itself, it says

12 that, "I completed written analyses on my progress in cooperation with

13 other members of the SDB." Full stop. That's the entire sentence.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Now, my question is as follows: Does that therefore confirm that

16 you were a member of the SDB, the State Security Service? Because you

17 prepared and completed analyses with other members of the State Security

18 Service.

19 A. That is correct. But that does not confirm the fact that I was a

20 member of the SDB. Neither did I say that. It just confirms that I

21 worked in the official system of the State Security Service in an official

22 capacity, official working capacity of the SDB. But I never said that I

23 was a member of the State Security Service. The description of my

24 cooperation was given in the sense that there was -- I was not informed,

25 did not receive information from anybody. There was no ratting. But I

Page 5163

1 have all the confirmation that confirms this.

2 Q. That's your affair. But I'm asking you about what you're saying

3 in your statement. On page 5, at the beginning of paragraph 3, you say:

4 "Via my contacts with the SDB, I was able to follow Milosevic's reactions

5 to proposals to solve this crisis in Kosovo. He had to agree to what I

6 achieved in the negotiations for me to be able to continue the

7 negotiations at all."

8 Is that what you say? So I had to accept what you achieved in

9 negotiations for you to be able to continue the negotiations; right? And

10 then at the end of the paragraph, you said, "Now, whether Milosevic okayed

11 the negotiations or not, I knew his opinion."

12 Now, my question to you is the following: In addition to

13 Milutinovic, who was president of Serbia, who carried on negotiations with

14 the Albanian said, the representative of the Kosovo negotiators, in

15 addition to the government representatives and their commissions and all

16 the different groups, working groups, et cetera - let me remind you that

17 Mr. Nice here showed an official note from a meeting of the government

18 commission that was held - so why, then, would the SDB carry out

19 negotiations at all and when did the State Security Service ever hold any

20 kind of negotiations which had to be with political matters? Do you

21 consider that it did or that it did not?

22 A. The SDB was always included into the intelligence dimension of

23 your negotiations. It necessarily had to be included because your

24 cooperators and associates, together with you, misled the public. And

25 your associates very often misled you too. That is why the State Security

Page 5164

1 Service was included into those negotiations. And the sentence you quoted

2 of mine is quite clear that you did not accept what I -- had you not

3 accepted what I was doing, I couldn't have gone on doing it for three and

4 a half years. I would have stopped two months later. Somebody would have

5 said that is not in order, that is not all right, he can't do work of that

6 kind. And so there is a lay -- a chain of command, a chain of

7 subordination in the political system of Yugoslavia, and the SDB, the

8 State Security Service, is a link in that chain, a component part of that

9 chain, and the overall information on that situation.

10 Q. Well, that's what I'm saying, that you never did do that work. So

11 we agree then, there's no problem there, but let's move on on page 6 --

12 A. I do apologise but we did not agree at all on that point.

13 Q. All right. Very well. Now, on page 6, paragraph 2, you say Agani

14 was more important than Rugova. I -- this is something that I'm hearing

15 for the first time. Do you actually consider that that is one of your own

16 findings? Is that something you consider you have discovered?

17 A. It was said that Agani was more important in the negotiations than

18 Rugova in the sense that he took part in the negotiations straight away,

19 authorised by Rugova, and Rugova only took part from time to time. And we

20 all know, and you know full well as well, that Mr. Rugova is a hermetic,

21 if I can put it like that, personality. He did not appear very frequently

22 in the negotiations himself in person, and in that sense, Agani was more

23 important, just as I, who did not have any great function, was the driving

24 force of many of those negotiations. In Serbia, political life evolved to

25 a great extent out of the -- outside the institutions, and we all know

Page 5165

1 that.

2 Q. That's something that you claim and we'll come to that later on,

3 but let's move on. In paragraph 4 on that same page, you say Monsignor

4 Paglia, the papal representative whom the European Union authorised to be

5 a negotiator in the negotiations et cetera, et cetera. Do you know that

6 Monsignor Paglia acted as an individual and that his advantage was

7 precisely the fact that he did not represent any kind of state; he did not

8 represent an institution, and he was there as a friend, as a personal

9 friend, my friend and Rugova's friend, to try and help us find a common

10 tongue. So do you know that that was his advantage, precisely the fact

11 that he did not represent anybody except representing himself? Do you

12 know that or not?

13 A. That simply is not true. Mr. Paglia, now Bishop Paglia, had

14 personal authorisation from Pope Paul II and was accepted by the European

15 Union as a discrete negotiator. He did act in his personal name at the

16 beginning, but once he had achieved the most significant result, he was

17 accepted just as the recommendations of Bertelsmann's commission was

18 accepted by the European Union.

19 Q. So you're now coming to what I was saying, that all the support

20 that Paglia received from various institutions followed after the

21 conclusion of the agreement on education in which he assisted. Is that so

22 or not?

23 A. As soon as Monsignor Paglia, now Bishop Paglia, achieved progress

24 on the agreement on education and before it was signed, he was given

25 support, and many international mediators and national ones took part.

Page 5166

1 This was a process based on good offices, and I also took part in this.

2 There is no dispute over that, and I see no contradiction.

3 Q. The contradiction is that the agreement between Rugova and me was

4 not published and no one knew about it. Is that true or not?

5 A. That is absolutely not true. I can -- I can show you a lot of

6 evidence. That is absolutely not true, because it was only you that took

7 part and Monsignor Paglia in the preparation of that agreement and that no

8 one knew about it.

9 Q. Very well. At the end of page 6, you say the SDB analysed

10 potential problems that may jeopardise the negotiations or - and that is

11 my point - other individuals within the circle around Milosevic would be

12 given a chance to feed him incorrect information. Why was this a chance

13 for individuals around Milosevic to feed him incorrect information?

14 A. This is distorting the meaning of the sentence, because if you

15 read it carefully, it says that SDB prevented certain individuals around

16 you from giving you incorrect information, because there were such people

17 around you.

18 Q. Very well. If the sentence is incorrect, then there is no need

19 for me to prove it because it is clearly written.

20 A. I'm sorry. That is not what it says. I ask the Court to read it;

21 that is not what it says.

22 Q. I have read it and the Court can examine it later.

23 In another paragraph, you said: "Round tables were organised

24 which actually served as a screen for discussions, as a cover for

25 discussions that were held in the evenings." So when meetings are held in

Page 5167

1 cafes and restaurants, then real discussions and substantive discussions

2 are conducted; is that what you're saying?

3 A. The organisation of round tables everywhere in the world serve as

4 a cover for more concrete meetings among significant persons, meetings

5 that do not take place in coffee bars but in other premises, and

6 everywhere in the world, in such situations, that is the most traditional

7 form of meetings. That is applied everywhere in the world.

8 Q. That is your interpretation. We've cleared up the matter.

9 Tell me, in the fifth paragraph, did you notice that all the dates

10 of the articles that you have listed, and there are about three articles,

11 that all those dates of those articles are after September the 1st, that

12 is, after the date when the agreement was signed between Rugova and me on

13 education in Kosovo?

14 A. It is my duty to inform the Court that I never denied the

15 significance of that agreement, but there are also articles before that

16 agreement on education, and my -- and I have supplied only a small

17 percentage of the articles linked to this subject and not designed to

18 promote me.

19 Q. Very well, then. I have nothing to ask in that connection.

20 You said that all the recommendations, and that is what it says

21 here on page 8, in paragraph 1, that they all represent "what was achieved

22 in the first of these stages which Mihajlovic and I had proposed to

23 Milosevic at our meeting," et cetera, et cetera.

24 So that was the result of joint efforts by you, Mihajlovic, and

25 your involvement in the preparations of the agreement. Is that so or not?

Page 5168












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5169

1 A. Let us see the page, please.

2 Q. Page 8, paragraph 1. You say:"These recommendations represent

3 what was achieved in the first stages that Mihajlovic and I proposed to

4 Milosevic."

5 So my question is: The main activity was conducted by Mihajlovic

6 and you; isn't that so? You and Mihajlovic took care of all these things

7 and were active in that field. You and Mihajlovic. Is that correct?

8 A. We suggested the programme to you. Until then, you had no

9 platform for the negotiations. We were the motive force behind these

10 negotiations. We kept chasing you to dismantle the powder keg so that it

11 doesn't blow up in your face. And the platform that we presented to you

12 and you approved in 1995 was the most complete platform that Serbia and

13 Yugoslavia ever had for negotiations on the Kosovo problem, and that

14 platform was further elaborated, and until your agreement with Holbrooke -

15 this is in evidence and this can be illustrated by reading through the

16 documents --

17 Q. I'm just trying to establish what you are saying here, that you

18 and Mihajlovic were actually in charge of these activities, according to

19 you. Is that so?

20 JUDGE MAY: He's given his answer.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Would you please play this tape? It is only one minute long. So

23 I should like to ask you some questions after that.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the interpreters interpret,

25 because this is a live recording of what Mihajlovic is saying, and it is

Page 5170

1 linked to what the witness has said.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's no sound.


5 testimony in the police there are some people who still are withholding

6 the truth. He even mentioned the head of the public security service.

7 "MR. MIHAJLOVIC: Well, you see The Hague Tribunal is a very

8 serious institution that the world expects a lot of. It has invested a

9 lot of time, money, and hope in it. And we see what is happening to us

10 now, to find ourself in a rather ridiculous or sad situation that the

11 Prosecution is loudly announcing a key witness, somebody who cannot be

12 that, who has simply collected what he found in the newspapers and

13 preparing his book on the crisis in Kosovo has actually made it available

14 to The Hague Tribunal. So this is mixing apples with pears, mixing

15 political negotiations with the Albanian side organised by various

16 foundations all over the world and other efforts that were made to avoid a

17 conflict, to avoid the bombing and so on. But in any event, neither did

18 Mr. Tanic take part in that nor was he an active executor of any plans

19 that he refers to. So this is simply rumours and hearsay, which calls in

20 question the seriousness of the Prosecution. This cannot be established

21 in any way, because he did not participate in any way in the

22 decision-making that he's testifying about nor in the execution of those

23 decisions. He was just an observer, like almost all the citizens of

24 Serbia. If that is an exaggeration, then anyone who took part in public

25 and political life could be compared with him, and this can be found in

Page 5171

1 articles or programmes in the media."

2 JUDGE MAY: Just -- before we go any further, when was that

3 programme made, Mr. Milosevic? The date.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is a live programme three days

5 ago. As you can see, Mihajlovic is being asked about the testimony of

6 this witness here. After his testimony, the programme was aired.

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You can -- you can ask the witness about

8 it. What appears on the television is not evidence. That ought to be

9 plain. It's merely the comments of Mr. Mihajlovic. However, you have the

10 opportunity to ask the witness about them so that he can get the

11 opportunity of answering.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Is Mihajlovic telling the truth or is he lying?

14 A. Unfortunately, he's not telling the truth.

15 Q. Very well, then. The entire press has carried this statement.

16 Dusan Mihajlovic, for instance, in The Express: "Tanic is talking

17 nonsense. Ratomir Tanic under no circumstances can be a witness --"

18 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter what the press says. Now, you can

19 ask the witness about what Mr. Mihajlovic has said so that he can answer.

20 If you're not going to, I shall.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've asked him the question, and he

22 has given an answer.

23 JUDGE MAY: No. No. What was said on that clip, Mr. Tanic, so

24 that you can deal with this, what was said is that you were not a

25 participant, you were a mere observer, like anybody else in Serbia. What

Page 5172

1 is your answer to that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is absolutely untrue, and I

3 will later submit documents showing that it is not true. I can also

4 provide at least ten names of domestic figures and international figures

5 who can confirm that I did take part in that.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Very well. So all the media have carried, in addition to this

9 live TV programme, similar comments. But let me go on to the next

10 question.

11 So the main person that you are relying on is Dusan Mihajlovic,

12 the current Minister of the Interior, is disproving what you're saying and

13 you're claiming that he is lying.

14 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment. We've already dealt with it. Let's

15 move on.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. In a part of your statement, you said that you were arrested by

19 the security with three vans and taken to a cellar, to a basement. Is

20 that true?

21 A. It is not true, because I said that I was kidnapped by certain

22 individuals from the state security rather than arrested.

23 Q. Very well. So you were kidnapped. So you're a victim of the

24 service for which you were working. Is that so?

25 A. No. In that service, there were individuals working for you

Page 5173

1 outside the legal frameworks, and an investigation was conducted and the

2 results of the investigation can be made available to the Court, and I can

3 comment on them. My wife was also kidnapped.

4 Q. Did you perhaps make that up?

5 A. Absolutely no.

6 Q. Did you perhaps not flee from Belgrade for some other reasons,

7 Mr. Tanic?

8 A. First of all, I didn't escape from Belgrade. I left the country

9 legally, and I didn't leave it for any other reasons nor do any such other

10 reasons exist.

11 Q. Did you cheat somebody or do you owe somebody some money?

12 A. No. My debts and liabilities are such that I have much greater

13 claims than my debts. As for cheating, there was no such thing.

14 Q. Very well.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Will you please place this document

16 on the ELMO.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I will read it out for you from the ELMO. It says here: "The

19 district court in Belgrade --" and giving the number of the case -- "17th

20 of May, 2002, Belgrade." And it says here, "Certificate. With the

21 district court in Belgrade regarding the case K1269/76, criminal

22 proceedings were conducted against the accused Tanic Ratomir, father's

23 name Lazar, born the 6th of April, 1956, in Belgrade, a student at the

24 time residing in Belgrade, Topuska Street [phoen] 14, for the criminal act

25 of looting under Article 255 paragraph 1 and in relation to article 258,

Page 5174

1 paragraph 2, pursuant to article 16 of the Criminal Code and article 306,

2 paragraph 3 in connection with paragraph 1 of the Criminal Code.

3 "On the 7th of March, 1977, for the same criminal acts, he was

4 found accused and -- found guilty and sentenced to a prison term of one

5 year and two months of strict confinement.

6 "The defendant and his attorney appealed on the 19th of April,

7 1977, and by decision of the Supreme Court of Serbia and Belgrade,

8 KZ.130/77, dated the 1st of November, 1997, by decision of the district

9 Court in Belgrade, K1269/76, the sentence was changed, revised, and his --

10 to seven months of imprisonment."

11 It says later on that: "In accordance with the court rules of

12 procedure, the decision was annulled, and this certificate is being issued

13 exclusively to be used in the proceedings against Slobodan Milosevic."

14 So already in 1977, you were sentenced for robbery, were you not,

15 Mr. Tanic?

16 A. I have nothing to say about this except that the commission

17 annulled the case, so I don't know how Mr. Milosevic got hold of it. And

18 anyway, this is something that is 26 years old. And it says that, by

19 commission, the case was annulled. I don't know what I'm being asked

20 about.

21 Q. Mr. Tanic, as you know, according to the rules of procedure of the

22 court, after a certain number of years, cases are destroyed but records

23 are kept, and this was issued by the district court in Belgrade on the

24 17th of this month, signed and stamped by the court. Are you trying to

25 tell us that you were not sentenced for robbery, as stated here, and that

Page 5175

1 this is a forgery that I have provided the Court with?

2 A. I was never sentenced for robbery, and there is no record any --

3 and there is no criminal record about me in Serbia or anywhere else. So

4 there is no criminal -- I have no criminal record. I was never sentenced

5 for robbery. And this is a piece of paper 26 years old and presenting

6 such information, I don't know what the purpose is, but that is up to the

7 Court to judge.

8 Q. So you're telling us that what was shown on the ELMO is false,

9 that it is a piece of paper that doesn't exist, that it is a forgery?

10 JUDGE MAY: He didn't say that it was false. The document will be

11 exhibited and translated.

12 Yes. Give it a number, please.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I did say I was never sentenced

15 for robbery, and this is something 26 years old, which to tell the truth,

16 I cannot remember to be able to confirm before the Court, but there is no

17 legal record of my name as a convicted person.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Very well.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'd like you to just explain to me

21 a little more about this certificate of annulment. Was the annulment done

22 after the lapse of a certain period of time? What is the period after

23 which the conviction is annulled?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly the provisions

25 of the rules of procedure in court but cases are not kept eternally as a

Page 5176

1 whole but the certificate was issued on the date that it says, stamped and

2 signed by the court, and it clearly states that Mr. Tanic was convicted

3 for robbery according to the articles of the Criminal Code that was in

4 force in Yugoslavia at the time. And it is well known in the rules of

5 procedure --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... it was in May

7 of this year.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The certificate. Yes. You have

9 this certificate, and it says in the upper left-hand corner - you have the

10 date - on the date of issue of the certificate.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is not clear to me is when did the annulment

12 take place? Did the annulment take place on the date of the issue of the

13 certificate? Because it appears to me that certificate was issued for the

14 purposes of this case. Or did the annulment take place sometime before

15 that date, in May of this year?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. This was issued on the date

17 it says, as I read it out to you. Upon the request of my associate, who

18 is a professional advocate who has offices in Belgrade, and who asked the

19 district court, in view of the fact that this person is appearing here, to

20 issue a certificate confirming that this was a person who was convicted,

21 and that is why it says that it is being used exclusively for these

22 proceedings, upon the request of my associate who is an attorney in

23 Belgrade.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... evidence.

25 You can continue.

Page 5177

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And we can get any further

2 information that we need subsequently.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll give that an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Exhibit Number

5 D11.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Tanic, do you know about the statement that was made by the

8 vice-president of your party, the Novo Demokratija party, Nebojsa

9 Seleskovic, which he gave over television and this was carried over the

10 press? Are you acquainted with the statement he made? Yes or no. He

11 says Tanic was not a participant in the negotiations with the Kosovo

12 Albanians. He furthermore states, "This witness in The Hague was never in

13 a direct role in the negotiations with the Albanians, and he never saw or

14 talked to Slobodan Milosevic, but he might have seen him sometime across

15 the street perhaps." And he goes on to say that he is informed that

16 Tanic, in Belgrade, ran up a lot of debts, and in the autumn of 1999 he

17 just disappeared from Belgrade, and that he agreed to testify in The Hague

18 for a sum of money. That is what the vice-president of your party claims.

19 A. In Belgrade, there are two active processes in my favour against

20 people who owe me money. As to the statement made by the vice-president

21 of my party that I could have seen you from across the street, we're going

22 to show that very quickly here when I come to present my evidence.

23 You have supplied the Tribunal with a document about a case that

24 you said was annulled, and you also submitted a forgery from the Novo

25 Demokratija, and we're going to prove that in the course of today.

Page 5178

1 JUDGE MAY: We're not going to go into argument here.

2 Two allegations are made; that you disappeared from Belgrade in

3 the autumn of 1999, it's said, because you ran up debts. And your answer

4 to that, in fact, is that you were owed money and you have begun or

5 succeeded in actions to get that money back; is that right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. And there is no

7 ongoing legal claims on me or any legal proceedings for these concocted

8 things that I owe.

9 JUDGE MAY: No. Let us deal with the other serious allegation

10 which is made, apparently to a newspaper. It's now been repeated here, so

11 you should have the opportunity to deal with it.

12 This person apparently alleges that you agreed to testify here for

13 a sum of money. Now, you should have an opportunity to deal with that.

14 Is there any truth in that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no truth in that. I have

16 my own affairs independent of any relationship with the Hague Tribunal,

17 and these affairs and businesses are outside and they are protected from

18 these concoctions from Belgrade.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I move on, let me just remind

20 you that Mr. Nice here too mentioned money in connection with the

21 protection of this witness, his identity changed, the fact that he was

22 moved to a third country and given a different place of residence and

23 everything linked to large sums of money, which I'm sure does not comprise

24 only that. But I do consider that this matter should be investigated.

25 JUDGE MAY: Now, have you got a question?

Page 5179

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a question. Did he

2 receive money or did he not?

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Yes or no.

5 JUDGE MAY: He has said that he didn't for giving evidence.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. If not money, perhaps some other material gain has been promised

9 him.

10 A. I should like to inform the Court that no money was offered me nor

11 did I ask for any. I have my manufacturing plants in a country in the

12 West and the only benefit that I can have from this testimony is I can go

13 back to manufacturing the goods that I have been manufacturing for nine

14 years previously, and I can also provide proof of that?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. What I read out a moment

16 ago about the statement made by the vice-president of the Novo Demokratija

17 party, this is an agency news item, the Beta news agency, taken from its

18 general service, and it is what was said on television. So I should like

19 to tender this document into evidence as well and to move on.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, this proposed evidence, along with the

23 copy of the tape, of course, is subject to the fact that it has never been

24 subjected to cross-examination by the Prosecution. In fairness, this type

25 of evidence can only be, in my respectful submission, useful in order to

Page 5180

1 put a particular issue to a witness to give him an opportunity to answer

2 it before it becomes evidence when the accused presents his case. In

3 other words, it's part of the putting your case to a witness but ought not

4 be evidence per se simply because it's tendered in this form.

5 That's the comment I wish to make at this time.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE MAY: We shall not admit this document. The reason that

8 we're not admitting it is that it is a totally unsubstantiated comment

9 made after a witness has given evidence, published in the press. There is

10 no support for it at all. The only reason that the accused was permitted

11 to cross-examine about it was so that the witness could deal with the

12 allegations. And only his answers are evidence.

13 If the Defence want to put this witness before the Tribunal, of

14 course they could do so, or they could apply to put this document in in

15 due course as part of their case, but that application will only be

16 considered in the totality of the case. At the moment, it is not

17 admissible as evidence and it will be returned to the accused.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I expect you to deduct

19 this time you spent conferring from the time allotted me for the

20 cross-examination.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Now, on page 8, you say that Vedrine-Kinkel or, rather, Kinkel and

23 Vedrine, as you say, in February of 1998 came and presented Milosevic a

24 document with joint recommendations. And my question to you is as

25 follows, then: Why did they present me this document if you say that it

Page 5181












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5182

1 was compiled along with my acquiescence?

2 A. Well, they presented the document to you once again so that what

3 you had promised that you should not retract, because you promised and

4 then retracted it and they wanted you to finally sign the paper which you

5 claimed you wanted to. And in the course of three years, you kept

6 maintaining this face that you would give a broad autonomy back to the

7 Albanians and the problem was there. The international community finally

8 wanted to ask you when you were actually going to do this. Now, you did

9 it with Holbrooke in 1998, and then -- actually, you wrote it, you signed

10 it, and then you went back on it, your word.

11 Q. You obviously know nothing about that, but let me just ask you

12 this: What are your reactions to the following fact? As the whole public

13 knew our policy, the policy we were waging and pursuing, and there was no

14 surprise on that score, I have here an official report from the

15 Kinkel-Vedrine meeting with me. That, of course, did not take place in

16 February but on the 20th of March, as it says here in the header of

17 Politika cooperation. It was on the 19th, but that's not important. It

18 doesn't matter that you made a mistake of one month, but it speaks about

19 cooperation, so this is all public matter, public material. No

20 Bertelsmann was made mention of here. And let me just quote a brief

21 excerpt from it. And it is towards the end of the page or, rather, in the

22 second half of this official report, and it says: "In connection with the

23 problems in Kosovo and Metohija for which there was great interest by

24 Kinkel and Vedrine, the ministers, President Milosevic said that our two

25 key positions were as follows: First, that Kosovo was the internal affair

Page 5183

1 of Serbia and that it can be resolved only within Serbia through political

2 means. And the second point is that that is why we cannot accept his --

3 the problem's internationalisation. We cannot accept that the problem be

4 internationalised."

5 And then it goes on to say that I lent my support to the statement

6 made by the president of Serbia, Milan Milutinovic, and so on and so

7 forth.

8 Now, do you consider that Kinkel and Vedrine would come with one

9 thing and then the statement from the meeting or report from the meeting

10 would read quite differently from what you're claiming was discussed at

11 that meeting and that they didn't react to it at all or pose the questions

12 that you were posing? Can you believe that that is possible in political

13 life when a head of state receives two ministers coming from the European

14 Union in front of cameras, cameramen, journalists, et cetera? Is that

15 possible?

16 A. I should like to inform the Court, and that is my duty, that the

17 difference between Milosevic's statements in the press, in the papers, and

18 Milosevic's statements in the course of negotiations with anyone was the

19 main reason that the conflict broke out, not only in Kosovo but also later

20 on with the international community. Mr. Milosevic quite simply tricked

21 and deluded the international community as he is deluding this Tribunal

22 here today.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I don't suppose that is a

24 comment, is it? I suppose that's testimony because the witness was there

25 and he knows all about it.

Page 5184

1 JUDGE MAY: Move on.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do you know that I informed them precisely because of the

5 importance of the negotiations that were conducted between the leadership

6 of Serbia and the leadership of the Kosovo Albanians, that for those

7 negotiations I should nominate my own special representative in the

8 dialogue between the leadership of Serbia and the Kosovo Albanians? Are

9 you aware of that? That's what it says too in the Politika paper of that

10 day.

11 A. I am aware of that, but I know that the negotiations took place in

12 a different way than you had promised the representatives of the

13 international community and domestic political factors that it would take

14 place in private contacts.

15 Q. So are you that domestic political factor, as you put it? Are you

16 one of those?

17 A. I'm just one of them. But when I have an occasion to state this

18 and demonstrate it, I will show documents to the contrary of what you're

19 saying.

20 Q. I'm not claiming anything. You're the one that's testifying here,

21 I'm just conducting a cross-examination based on your testimony.

22 Now, in view of the fact that we have this statement, let us clear

23 some matters up. You refer to some errors and mistakes in translation

24 with respect to your statement. And in the Serbian version, on page 26,

25 paragraph 2, you say: "In the course of the NATO bombing, I had a very

Page 5185

1 fierce confrontation with Milosevic at a small reception."

2 Later on, and that's what it says here, whereas in the English

3 version, gentlemen, on page 27, paragraph 3, it says the following: "NATO

4 bombing -- [In English] heated conversation with Milosevic at a small

5 reception."

6 [Interpretation] There is no difference whatsoever that I can see

7 between what it says here in English and in the sentence that I read out

8 in Serbian, which says that during the NATO bombing, and that's what it

9 says in English, during the NATO bombing campaign, "I had a heated

10 conversation with Milosevic at a small reception," and here it says: "I

11 had a heated conversation with Milosevic at a small reception." That's

12 precisely what it says. So there is no difference whatsoever in the

13 translation there, the difference and discrepancy that the so-called

14 alleged witness referred to.

15 Now, in this connection -- let's put that aside for the time

16 being. You, Mr. Tanic, said that, in fact, it was a reception held in the

17 Novo Demokratija Party premises; right?

18 Now, Vuk Draskovic telephoned me from -- telephoned me. That's

19 what you said. And that you listened to it over a loudspeaker and that

20 this is not good because it wasn't translated very well but that it was a

21 telephone conversation with Vuk Draskovic, in fact.

22 A. As we're talking about that, I didn't say and refer to a mistake

23 in the translation. I apologise to the Court, saying that I didn't

24 describe these events precisely enough because they were -- it took place

25 in the year 2000. As there were several hysterical conversations in the

Page 5186

1 course of the war, I apologise to the Court and the Prosecution for not

2 describing it in very precise terms.

3 There was a reception in the sense that there was a working

4 meeting between Vuk Draskovic, the vice-premier of the Yugoslav

5 government, Dusan Mihajlovic, myself, and the Italian Ambassador who would

6 -- who turned up with a peace solution. Now, it is from talks of this

7 kind and of course at those talks something -- they had something to eat

8 as well because they went on for three hours.

9 Q. Please don't go on telling us what you ate but we have established

10 what you actually said. Now, tell me this: How could you have had a

11 heated discussion with me, heated conversation with me if you listened to

12 Vuk Draskovic's conversation with me on the phone?

13 A. For the simple reason that you were informed first as to who was

14 present at the meeting, and secondly, I stepped in with two or three

15 sentences in that conversation. Vuk Draskovic found it difficult to

16 locate you but he informed you he looked for Lilic and Pavle Bulatovic.

17 He succeeded in finding you on one occasion over the phone --

18 Q. All right, all right, Mr. Tanic. Do you know about Vuk

19 Draskovic's statement precisely with respect to what you have just told

20 us, and it says the following, and it was by Blic. The man denied that in

21 the course of the meeting with Mihajlovic that Milosevic was ever on a

22 direct telephone line and he assesses Tanic's statement as a complete

23 untruth. Now, is Vuk Draskovic speaking untruths as well, Mr. Tanic? Is

24 that it?

25 A. Well, it's quite obvious now that everybody is washing their hands

Page 5187

1 of it. But there is evidence that those meetings did take place and that

2 Vuk did have telephone conversations both with Lilic and with Bulatovic

3 and on one occasion, after trying a great deal, he did manage to get you

4 on the phone as well, but it was dealing with peace plans.

5 Q. All right, so what you're saying is that Vuk Draskovic is telling

6 untruths as well; is that it?

7 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment too.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well. So a

9 comment.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You say that I didn't want to strike a bargain with the Kosovo

12 Albanians. Is it your opinion that bargaining is a principle on which a

13 state that attaches great significance to its integrity and national

14 dignity should be based on?

15 A. What page are we talking about, please?

16 Q. I'll tell you, but I don't have to quote the page every time,

17 surely. At the end of the third paragraph on page 9. "On several

18 occasions, he rejected the chance of striking a bargain with the Kosovo

19 Albanians."

20 So my question is: Do you feel that bargaining is a principle on

21 the basis of which a state that attaches significance to its integrity and

22 national dignity should function?

23 A. All political negotiations on delicate issues contain an element

24 of bargaining, and that is well-known worldwide.

25 Q. Very well. So that is your position?

Page 5188

1 A. You did bargain with them when that was necessary.

2 Q. I never bargained with anyone, Mr. Tanic. Maybe you do. In the

3 middle of the last paragraph, you say that: "We managed to agree with

4 Monsignor Paglia an agreement on education which Milosevic even agreed to

5 start implementing." Do you know that even some Albanian witnesses did

6 not deny that in the process of the implementation of those negotiations,

7 many thousands of square metres of faculties were handed over as a result

8 of this group on education which was implementing the agreement?

9 So surely this is completely untrue when you said that he didn't

10 even start to implement it. Do you know that?

11 A. That was far from a real beginning to the implementation of the

12 agreement. Some facilities were handed over, but -- that is true, but the

13 Serbian factor, upon your orders or somebody else's orders, opposed what

14 you had signed. That was the first time for me to see someone opposing

15 you. So this was a double-faced game. And this was confirmed to me by

16 your associates. But as no one seems to remember me now, I don't know

17 what to do about it. We'll try and prove that in another way.

18 Q. Very well. You can try and prove that with them.

19 On page 10, you say that what was done, that this agreement

20 actually meant recognition of the fact that there was discrimination at

21 the expense of the Kosovo Albanians. So my question is: Is it

22 recognition or acknowledgement of the existence of discrimination or was

23 it the result of an effort for the Albanians to give up this parallel

24 system and to be reintegrated in the life of Serbia? So is it recognition

25 of discrimination or a reflection of efforts to reintegrate the Kosovo

Page 5189

1 Albanians in the political life of Serbia? Yes or no. Which of the two?

2 A. If there had been no problems or discrimination, why would you

3 have had to have an agreement to deal with the problems? When everything

4 is all right, there's no need for any agreements. They wouldn't be

5 educating themselves in basements.

6 Q. Very well. We'll come back to that later. I can see that on page

7 10, you list the names of people attending the reception. You read that

8 from the newspapers, and then you said that they were the people you saw

9 at the reception, like Mirko Marjanovic, Milovan Bojic, and so on, people

10 from the government of Serbia. You read that in the newspapers, didn't

11 you?

12 A. No. I attended all those receptions, and there is proof of that.

13 Q. Very well. On page 11, you said at the very beginning, at the top

14 of the page: "Shortly before the conversation, I spoke to Ratko Markovic,

15 the vice-president of the government, who told me that Milosevic had

16 ordered that he would not negotiate seriously with the Kosovo

17 Albanians." And before that, you said that -- you were explaining in your

18 conversation with Ratko Markovic, that he said that the attitude towards

19 Kosovo was being changed. So I would like at least this to be admitted

20 into evidence. It is a letter by Ratko Markovic, who says, in connection

21 with the statement - it is a handwritten letter - "Ratomir Tanic gave a

22 statement in The Hague Tribunal." And he wrote this letter on the 14th of

23 May, and he says: "He spoke about alleged meetings and conversations he

24 had with me before going to Rambouillet. It is my duty to inform the

25 public of the truth: With Mr. Tanic, I did not have any meetings before

Page 5190

1 going to Rambouillet, and therefore, I could not have had any

2 conversations with him. And how little truth there is in his statement is

3 evidenced by the fact that the platform with which the state delegation of

4 the Republic of Serbia went to the negotiations in Rambouillet is the same

5 as the one with which the Government of Serbia went to Pristina throughout

6 1998 for negotiations with representatives of all ethnic communities

7 living in Kosovo and Metohija but without success." Signed Ratko

8 Markovic, 14th of May, 2002.

9 So Ratko Markovic is not telling the truth either, is he?

10 JUDGE MAY: The same applies as applied to the earlier document.

11 The witness has heard what this person has said in the letter.

12 Mr. Tanic, you can deal with it. Mr. Markovic has apparently

13 written a letter, saying that he didn't have any meetings with you. Is

14 there any truth in that or not?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. And when I'm allowed to speak,

16 I can mention the names of two people who can confirm a meeting with

17 Mr. Ratko Markovic, who complained to me that he had a lot of problems.

18 He's a honest man, a man of integrity. I'm not calling that in question

19 at all. But people in Belgrade are exposed to pressure and are saying all

20 kinds of things. And I will show various photographs and other documents

21 that confirm everything I'm saying or most of what I'm saying.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Are those photographs from the receptions as well?

24 A. No. No. No. I didn't bring photographs from receptions. But

25 you said that I didn't even attend receptions. So maybe they would be

Page 5191

1 sufficient. But I will rely on witnesses.

2 Q. On the contrary, I said that you may have only attended

3 receptions.

4 A. They are not receptions.

5 Q. So for Ratko Markovic, that you say is a honest man, you wrote

6 that he said to you, on page 11 again, that he had been given an apartment

7 from Milosevic and, therefore, he has to follow my requests.

8 Imagine, a vice-premier to whom I'm giving an apartment - the very

9 idea of me giving people apartments - and then the poor person has to do

10 what I say. Is there any end Mr. Tanic, to your endeavours to sling mud

11 against people in this way?

12 A. First of all, I didn't slander Mr. Ratko Markovic. It is my duty

13 to tell the Court that Mr. Markovic showed me bruises from beatings in

14 Pristina, that the Serbian police did not protect him there. So I didn't

15 sully his integrity nor anybody else's. It is up to the Court to judge.

16 There was pressure in Belgrade against people. Similar kind of pressure

17 was brought to bear against me.

18 Q. We have to hasten, because I have a lot more questions.

19 On imagine 12, you say that from Western sources, you learnt that

20 their intelligence services had said that they would assist in the

21 elimination of the KLA if I support the reforms for Kosovo Albanians, that

22 they would stop financing them and that they would cooperate with Serbia

23 and FRY, et cetera, et cetera. Is that true?

24 A. It is true, but I didn't say that they would stop financing them

25 but that they would interrupt the flow of finances.

Page 5192

1 Q. So you confirm cooperation with all these foreign intelligence

2 services, don't you?

3 A. No. Out of the question. Working contacts about political

4 questions such as terrorism is one thing and cooperation is another.

5 Q. So you don't confirm it. Very well. Are you familiar with the

6 basic request of the Kosovo Albanians from much earlier on? Are you

7 familiar with that demand of theirs?

8 A. That demand was to have their autonomy at least restored that they

9 were deprived of at the end of the 1980s.

10 Q. Mr. Tanic, their demand was a Kosovo republic. Yes or no.

11 Please answer me, I have very little time left, so yes or no. Was there a

12 demand for a Kosovo republic in negotiations?

13 A. No. But as for what is said in media, I don't want to comment it.

14 Q. But you heard Rugova the other day, that never in any negotiations

15 did he say that he was demanding independence. Is what he said is true or

16 not? What was the demand that he was making?

17 A. I think that Mr. Rugova confirmed what I am saying. It is one

18 thing to have autonomy and political independence, and secession is

19 something else. And a third thing is autonomy plus --

20 Q. Never mind, leave that for your book. So you do know that the

21 West financed the KLA and assisted it to that end, without interrupting

22 the drug -- Albanian drug trafficking. You're aware of that, aren't you?

23 A. I never said that the West financed the KLA. That is not in my

24 statement nor in my testimony. One thing is to interrupt the flow of

25 sources and another thing to finance them, and never did I say that the

Page 5193

1 West financed the KLA.

2 Q. A moment ago, you said that if something happened, that they would

3 cease financing the KLA. That is what you said a moment ago. So as a

4 connoisseur, as you pretend to be, of the requirements of the Kosovo

5 Albanians and the positions of the international community, you list the

6 countries on whose name you speak, and as a participant in numerous

7 negotiations you're saying that the KLA was financed by the West and that

8 the international community did nothing --

9 JUDGE MAY: That is not what he said. Now, stop misrepresenting

10 the evidence, particularly as time is short.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You say on page 12: "Milosevic refused Stanisic's proposal to

13 export the problem of Albanian terrorism to Northern Albania by exploiting

14 the divisions between the Gheg and Tosk clans and rifts in Albanian

15 politics, an opportunity which presented itself during the crisis in

16 Albania in spring 1997."

17 So you're claiming that I rejected Stanisic's proposal for

18 exporting the problem to Northern Albania. Does that mean that Stanisic

19 also felt that what was happening in Kosovo was terrorism? Just yes or

20 no, please. I have no time.

21 A. Yes indeed. There is no dispute about it. What the dispute is

22 over the methods of dealing with the problem.

23 Q. Then you go on to say -- sorry. Was that the position of the

24 international community as well, that that was terrorism?

25 A. Yes. But only the question was who was provoking it. You

Page 5194












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5195

1 provoked it and not they.

2 Q. Oh, I see. Fine. So Mr. Stanisic's proposal, I hear it for the

3 first time from you, regarding the export of terrorism. Can the problem

4 of terrorism be resolved by being -- by exporting it to the neighbours?

5 Do you consider that an ethical solution?

6 A. I'm sorry. When talking about the defence of a country, it's not

7 a question of morality. Everything that helps solve the problem is

8 allowed. Our aim was protect the territory of Serbia and Yugoslavia from

9 escalation of terrorist activities that you signed.

10 Q. So you're claiming that Stanisic wanted to export terrorism to

11 Albania, and you took part in the preparation of that plan, as you say

12 here.

13 A. No. He simply wanted to export the Albanian terrorists from where

14 they had come, and you wanted to keep them in the territory of our country

15 because you needed them.

16 Q. Very well. At the end of page 12, you say: "In spite of the fact

17 that he received information from me that the governments of three western

18 states were ready to assist in eliminating the KLA."

19 So I got a message from you. How come they didn't hand it through

20 the Ministry of the Interior, through Stanisic, but rather through you?

21 Which three states sent me a message through you?

22 A. They did send a message through Stanisic and other security

23 sources and the diplomatic service. I just said that it went through me

24 as well. You received hundreds such -- a hundred or so of such messages

25 and you turned a deaf ear. You know all that but you say here that you

Page 5196

1 got the message through me.

2 Q. You're also claiming that I rejected some sort of a plan of

3 Perisic's. Is that true?

4 A. I'm sorry. Would you please give me the page? I can't follow.

5 Q. If you don't know, let me move on.

6 A. No, no. Give me the page so I can find the context. It's not

7 that I don't know. I want to see the context. I explained Perisic's plan

8 the other day - a state of emergency, a legal struggle against terrorists

9 - and that was also Stanisic's plan.

10 Q. Are you sure that that was his plan or somebody else's plan, in

11 view of what is happening with Perisic now and his arrest and accusations

12 of spying, charges of spying and so on?

13 A. That was a joint plan of Mr. Perisic, Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Lilic, and

14 some others, people in the public security service, honest patriots from

15 the security structures, military structures, and politicians.

16 Q. So on page 15, in the second paragraph, you refer to information

17 of American, British, and Vatican services from whom you learnt that NATO

18 had no problems acting under the UN flag, and so on. Can you answer my

19 question: Why didn't NATO ask for UN approval, and why didn't you ever

20 give permission for the NATO aggression, and do you consider that NATO did

21 commit aggression and violate the charter of the UN by attacking

22 Yugoslavia?

23 JUDGE MAY: No. That's not for him.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we'll give you another five minutes, to

Page 5197

1 twenty-five to, because some time was taken up. So you should -- any

2 questions you want to ask, you should ask them now.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have very many questions. It is

4 very hard for me now to make a selection because, as you see, this false

5 witness has made a vast number of allegations that everyone is denying.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You said that in February or March, facts needed to be collected

8 about Kosovo. Lilic, Stanisic, Perisic, and then Sainovic joined in. My

9 question is: And why did the security service or the military need any

10 vice-premier, whether his name was Lilic or Sainovic, to discover what the

11 real state of affairs was? Why would they need that? Surely they know

12 the situation without a vice-premier.

13 A. They wanted to cooperate with honest patriots from around you

14 rather than people who were misleading you or participating together with

15 you in the tricks against Serbs and Albanians. Lilic is an honest man.

16 He's known as an honest man, as the majority of those I've listed here.

17 Q. You claim that they, at the time when they drew up this information,

18 they said that there was no major organised terrorism in Kosovo. Isn't

19 that so?

20 A. No. They told you that that terrorism could be eliminated by

21 legal means and that it was high time to resort to those legal means,

22 otherwise, terrorism would escalate, we would enter into a dispute with

23 the international community, et cetera.

24 Q. Leave that aside. Isn't it illogical for these insignificant

25 terrorist groups, as you claim throughout your testimony, and then to

Page 5198

1 suggest the use of the army to suppress them, don't you think that is

2 illogical, to talk about insignificant terrorist groups and then to

3 advocate the use of the army to deal with them?

4 A. He suggested the introduction of the state of emergency as a legal

5 framework for the struggle against Albanian terrorists who were still

6 weak.

7 Q. So you claim without a state of emergency, there's no legal way of

8 struggling against terrorists? Is that what you're saying?

9 A. There is, but future problems were already emerging that required

10 a state of emergency. The border belt and combat operations, and one

11 needed to see whether all of them were terrorists or whether the problem

12 could be solved without the use of force.

13 Q. You said that there was no definition as to what is terrorism and

14 what is not. Do you know that the Criminal Code of Yugoslavia very

15 clearly sanctions the criminal act of terrorism? Are you aware of that?

16 A. Yes. But one thing is massive terrorist activities and rebellion,

17 and a second thing are individual acts of terrorism.

18 Q. You talk about a commission of mine for preparing and conducting

19 ethnic cleansing and the Horseshoe operation, because I heard from you

20 that the JNA had this Horseshoe plan. Did such a commission exist? Was

21 it only for Albanians or is it also for Bulgarians, Romanians, and

22 Hungarians? Who set up that commission? What kind of a commission are

23 you talking about?

24 A. We had a headquarters for Kosovo that is mentioned in Perisic's

25 letter. It is the state commission for Kosovo which was founded to

Page 5199

1 implement your private will outside the legal institutions.

2 Q. You said that outside the legal institutions through the Minister

3 of the Interior and the head of the security of the services gave orders.

4 I don't know who those two gentlemen and those two institutions are if

5 they are not legal institutions. But my question is: As you named

6 Sainovic as the head of an illegal commission, do you know that Nikola

7 Sainovic was the president of the commission of the federal -- of the head

8 of the Federal Commission for Cooperation with the OSCE? Do you know that

9 or not?

10 A. That is quite true, but it is not the same commission. I did not

11 also say that Mr. Stanisic was involved in any way, because he was against

12 your plan, as was Perisic.

13 Q. What plan are you talking about? You're talking about a plan that

14 did not exist. What plan are you talking about? Which plan were they

15 against? Is there mention of the word "plan" anywhere?

16 A. They were against the plan to provoke war in Kosovo when both

17 Albanians and Serbs would suffer as well as our army and our police and

18 the Albanian civilians. They were against that plan.

19 Q. So you're claiming that I wanted to ethnically cleanse all the

20 Albanians and then to kill the Serbs as well? Is that what you're saying?

21 A. In your own interest to hold onto power, you wanted to exert

22 violence over Serbs and Albanians, and that is what you did.

23 Q. Fine, Mr. Tanic. That is another pearl in your string of

24 allegations.

25 Where was this commission active? You mentioned people who held

Page 5200

1 very responsible state positions and who went to Kosovo to assist in the

2 work of the local bodies. You mentioned the president of parliament,

3 Milomir Minic. True enough, but here it says secretary of the Federal

4 Assembly but let me assume it is a printing error, he was president of

5 parliament. You mentioned the vice-premier, who was president of the

6 commission of the Federal Government for cooperation with the OSCE. You

7 mentioned a vice-president of a party, Dusko Markovic. You mentioned the

8 president of the provisional Executive Council in Kosovo, Zoran

9 Andjelkovic. Surely all these people had the duty to deal with political

10 problems affecting Yugoslavia and Serbia. Yes or no, Mr. Tanic.

11 A. They were not working with the authorisation of our institutions,

12 and the problem of Kosovo was never discussed at Assembly bodies or

13 government bodies of Serbia and Yugoslavia, as they should have been.

14 They were state functionaries but they acted as a private group connected

15 to you rather than our institutions as institutions.

16 JUDGE MAY: Your last question, Mr. Milosevic, and then we will

17 adjourn.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you won't let me continue, the

19 only thing I can ask Mr. Tanic is:

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How does he think that he can sell

21 this story of his -- and surely you will accept this as evidence, in

22 connection with that really absurd statement that we had been informed by

23 NATO that they would bomb the television station and other targets, here

24 is a letter from the Ministry of Internal Affairs to the district court in

25 Belgrade, dated 2001, because these questions were raised not linked to

Page 5201

1 me, and it says: "We are responding to your request as to whether the

2 television station has any evidence that someone from the NATO command or

3 the countries of the NATO alliance gave prior information to any

4 executives in our country or any executives in Radio Television Serbia

5 that the building of the television would be bombed. We wish to inform

6 you that Radio Television Belgrade does not have any such evidence."

7 Could you please admit this into evidence, though you don't have

8 to because it is clear to everyone. Even NATO denied this.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Very well. There is no need to make a

10 speech at this stage. That document can be put in. We'll admit it into

11 evidence.

12 Let it have an exhibit number.

13 JUDGE KWON: Before we adjourn, I'd like to raise a couple of

14 questions to the Prosecution, which I hope then they can consider during

15 the adjournment.

16 First, it's all about the exhibits. The first thing is the

17 Prosecution Exhibit 147.3, which is a news clipping from Politika, dated

18 31st of July, 1997. According to the statements of this witness, Mr.

19 Tanic was identified as a negotiator in this article, but I couldn't find

20 what phrase is doing this. And also, if I'm right in reading Cyrillic,

21 the Serb version of the exhibit seems to mention the witness's name in

22 several places but I couldn't find an English translation or even in some

23 redacted version. Nothing at all. That's the first thing.

24 And second thing is the Prosecution Exhibit 148 or TX-5. It is

25 the final version of the Halki meeting of BSF, called "Joint

Page 5202

1 Recommendation on Kosovo Conflict." According to the witness statement of

2 this witness, the last page is missing and which was offered to the

3 witness by one of the investigators. So could the Chamber get the last

4 page, which is TX-6.

5 And the final question is that Mr. Perisic's letter referred by

6 this witness, he said that this is the photocopy of the letter, but is

7 that -- I'd like to know whether the Prosecution's position is the same.

8 I'd like to hear at a later stage.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll attempt to deal with

10 those during the break.

11 Just one question, however. I don't know whether the witness was

12 given an opportunity to respond to the allegation with respect to the last

13 exhibit that was put in. I didn't hear a response from him with respect

14 to that allegation.

15 JUDGE MAY: I don't think it called for comment from him. If you

16 want to ask him about it, do, Mr. Ryneveld.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll get an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the letter from the Ministry of

20 Internal Affairs will be Exhibit D12.

21 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for 20 minutes. When we come

22 back, we will go on with cross-examination from the amicus.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay.

Page 5203

1 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

3 Q. Mr. Tanic, can you deal with this matter, please: Were you

4 convicted of any criminal offence in 1977?

5 A. Since I am not amongst the record of those convicted and as the

6 whole proceedings have been destroyed, I don't need to answer that

7 question. And secondly, I am speaking as a person who is not contained in

8 any of the records, legal records, of convicted persons.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tanic, you will have to answer the question.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that question can go to my

11 disadvantage. Why do I have to answer if I'm not on the list and in the

12 records of any convicted persons?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's for the Chamber to assess what weight we

14 will attach to the answer that you give, but an answer is required. If

15 you don't answer, the Chamber will also make an assessment as to that.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. That's not a problem.

17 Twenty-six years ago, there was some slight sentence, not for robbery.

18 But it was wiped out on the basis our law because they were small

19 problems. I was only 19 years at the time, but it wasn't robbery.

20 MR. KAY:

21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber for what offences you were

22 convicted of.

23 A. I must say, without going round the problem, I don't really

24 remember any more.

25 Q. Very well. I've got some other questions to ask you now. When

Page 5204

1 did you start writing your book on Kosovo?

2 A. In the summer of 1999. Summer, autumn. Late summer, early

3 autumn. Late summer, in fact.

4 Q. Has the book been published or completed?

5 A. The book is being completed. It is in the stage of completion.

6 An interview was published and an article, an excerpt from the book.

7 Q. When did the British security service contact you about your book?

8 A. The British intelligence service never contacted me in connection

9 with the book but in connection with the discovery of Serb victims in

10 Kosovo.

11 Q. Have the British security service paid you money as part of your

12 funds for writing this book?

13 A. It gave a sum which was supposed to cover about 50 per cent of the

14 expenses of the research, because there was quite considerable research

15 linked to the writing of the book.

16 Q. In what circumstances did it come about that the British security

17 service were paying you funds for the expenses of this book?

18 A. Because one of the subjects in the book was research into Serb

19 victims in Kosovo and sending in information about that, among others, to

20 the International Tribunal in The Hague, and Milosevic and his men refused

21 to do so, to supply that.

22 Q. Did you declare this interest of the British security service in

23 your book to your political party or any other agency, government agency?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. To which agencies?

Page 5205

1 A. To the State Security Service of Serbia.

2 Q. The money that was paid to you, we were told, was 3.000 euros. Is

3 that right?

4 A. No, no. I said approximately 5.000 euros in two instalments, on

5 two occasions.

6 Q. And how was that money paid to you? Was it cash or to a bank

7 account?

8 A. In cash, with no records. I didn't have to mention it or bring it

9 up here in this Tribunal. There is no bank account, nothing. It was in

10 cash for 50 per cent of the expenses of the research, as the rest of the

11 50 per cent was supplied by -- was supplied by me.

12 Q. You told us that you had businesses and that you were successful

13 in business. Why did you need the money from the British security service

14 of 5.000 euros?

15 A. I'm not a businessman. I am a manufacturer of goods, a producer

16 of goods, a small scale industrialist and for nine years I spent my own

17 money in politics, but due to the costs of the war and the different

18 problems that arose with regard to myself and my family, I was not able to

19 finance all my activities and that is why I asked for assistance as this

20 was of general national interest. And I reported this to the State

21 Security Service of Serbia, so there was no secret on that score.

22 Q. And did the State Security Service of Serbia give their approval

23 of your writing this book with the aid of money from the British security

24 service?

25 A. Yes, it did. They even started collecting documents and

Page 5206

1 information about the Serb victims. And this was dispersed in different

2 boxes and trucks, this information, or storehouses, rather, warehouses,

3 not trucks.

4 Q. You told us last week that the book concerned the victims of

5 Kosovo. Was that victims exclusively who were Serb or also Albanian

6 victims?

7 A. The basic thesis of the book is that Mr. Milosevic caused a war in

8 which both the Albanians and the Serbs fell victim. In view of the fact

9 that the Albanians victims are already common knowledge, more or less, the

10 book starts out from the premises of Serb victims but of course just as

11 part of all that.

12 Q. And did the British security service tell you what interest they

13 had in you writing and publishing this book?

14 A. Yes, they did. Their interest was twofold: One was to secure via

15 unofficial channels some facts on Serb victims which Mr. Milosevic did not

16 supply at the time; and the second interest was that we have a

17 well-balanced out picture of what actually did happen in 1998 and 1999 in

18 that unfortunate circumstance that befell all of us.

19 Q. Did you ask them for money or did they suggest that they would pay

20 you money?

21 A. I asked them, because I said that I would not be able to finance

22 the costs and expenditure of the research and that, if they were willing,

23 they could meet 50 per cent of the expenses in view of the fact that I

24 knew them for a long time and that it was a subject that was of common

25 interest. So I contacted them.

Page 5207












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5208

1 Q. From what you say, would that subject be that it was anti or

2 against Mr. Milosevic?

3 A. No. The British side, like myself, was interested in seeing a

4 realistic, or as close to real as possible, of the image of what was going

5 on in Kosovo. No mention was made of any specific interest against

6 Milosevic because The Hague indictment had already been raised against

7 him. Therefore, it was quite clear that there were other -- that there

8 was other evidence except for that.

9 Q. Would you say, then, that it was accepted by both of you that the

10 book would be anti-Milosevic?

11 A. That book was to be the truth or as close to the truth as

12 possible. Whether that was anti-Milosevic or not, that's another matter.

13 The book did not deal in anti-Milosevic positions but in ascertaining as

14 correctly as possible the facts of the matter.

15 Q. Have any other security services paid you any money?

16 A. No. Not until I left the country. Only once I had left the

17 country, but that was a private affair altogether at that point in time.

18 And not money. It wasn't money. When I left the country, it wasn't a

19 question of money, it was assistance with regard to accommodation for a

20 brief period of time.

21 Q. Were you in need of money to support yourself when you left

22 Serbia?

23 A. For a brief period of time, yes, because I had to leave Serbia in

24 a great hurry, and lots -- I did not manage to have all the debts owed me

25 paid in. So 150.000 euros, claims to that effect, claims that were not

Page 5209

1 paid to me to that amount.

2 Q. Did you avoid the payment of bills yourself when you left Serbia?

3 A. No. Quite simply, I had no accounts abroad. So there was no one

4 to pay in except the firm's accounts. But of course, private affairs and

5 the affairs of the firm cannot be mixed up. And my firm, my company, was

6 frozen for two years anyway.

7 Q. So did you settle all the outstanding accounts and bills owing by

8 you at the time that you had left Serbia?

9 A. No, because the money I was to have been repaid was ten times

10 greater than the bills that I had to be paid. So before I got the money

11 paid to me, I wasn't able to settle my outstanding accounts and bills. But

12 nobody is persecuting me for that, because the bills I should have paid

13 are far smaller than my claims. So nobody's after me for that.

14 Q. Since leaving Yugoslavia, you've said that you had some slight

15 assistance from another security service while you established yourself in

16 accommodation, I just want to ask you some questions now about your

17 circumstances without you giving any personal details in public. Do you

18 understand that?

19 A. I must say that I don't understand what you're telling me.

20 Q. Have you been provided with a new country in which to live?

21 A. No, not up until now. Whether I shall be or not, I don't know

22 that.

23 Q. So you're currently seeking asylum in another country. Would that

24 be right?

25 A. Well, you would have to see about that with the OTP office of The

Page 5210

1 Hague Tribunal. I have not officially asked for asylum because I can live

2 in a third country even without the asylum status. But perhaps I will ask

3 for it. I really didn't deal with the question of my future in any great

4 detail.

5 Q. But is the position that you will be given a new identity in

6 another country? I don't want the details, but just whether that fact is

7 true or not.

8 A. It is absolutely untrue. A new identity abroad. I never

9 discussed that with anybody, nor would I accept it. I have no reason to

10 ask for a new identity. Protection is one matter, a new identity is quite

11 another.

12 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. Did you wish me to deal with

14 the questions posed to me by Judge Kwon before I re-examine?

15 JUDGE MAY: Whichever is convenient.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps I may do that, and the third of those

17 questions may well lead into my re-examination, if I may.

18 In the first place, Your Honour, my -- according to my note, Your

19 Honour asked about a document, 147.3, and referred to the fact that in the

20 document dated the 31st of, I believe it's July 1997, there appeared to be

21 references in Cyrillic script to this particular witness which do not

22 appear on the English translation that was provided.

23 My understanding is that the copy that was sent for translation at

24 that particular time was sent in a redacted form with the name, of course,

25 because this was a protected witness, with the name -- that then was a

Page 5211

1 protected witness, the name redacted. Therefore, the translation that has

2 been submitted under 147.3 does not contain the witness's name and the

3 translation is written in such a way as to try to make sense of it without

4 the name in it.

5 My understanding is that we have requested a subsequent

6 translation of this document in its unredacted form, and that is

7 forthcoming.

8 If it would assist, we could place the unredacted document on the

9 ELMO now and perhaps have the translators or the interpreters read a

10 couple of aspects of it.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, did Your Honour respond that you'd like

14 to put it on the ELMO now?


16 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you.

17 JUDGE KWON: Other translations indicate that there are some parts

18 redacted but this does not.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: That's correct. It's two pages but the first page

20 is being placed on the ELMO now. And I suspect that it's the underlined

21 aspects that were in fact redacted when it was sent for translation.

22 So if the interpreters are able to read this particular exhibit as

23 it's now displayed, perhaps we could go to, first of all, the --


25 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Go ahead.

Page 5212

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise, but somebody from

2 the courtroom will have to read the text first.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I'm unable, of course, to read the Cyrillic

4 text, so I'm unable to assist in that regard. Perhaps that could be shown

5 to the witness who, I take it, can read it, and perhaps the witness will

6 be prepared to read that for us.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There's no problem there.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

9 Q. All right, Witness, I'm go to ask you, if you would please,

10 underneath the headline, there appears to be a reference. Could you read

11 the caption, if you would, please, in Cyrillic, out loud so the translator

12 can interpret.

13 A. The subtitle is: "The previous authority led by Salih Denicoc

14 [phoen], the Social Democrats of Albania have not been hit by the virus of

15 nationalism, says Predrag Simic. The Social Democrats and Democratic

16 Alliance of Albania are turned towards European integrations and

17 tendencies of the new European left, is the opinion of Ratomir Tanic.

18 After this signal from Tirana, the politicians of the Albanian parties in

19 Kosovo are starting to reassess their positions." That is the subtitle.

20 Do you wish me to read on?

21 Q. I would like you to turn to the column where it is underlined and

22 read the underlined sentence in its entirety, please. That was the three

23 columns, the three vertical columns, the left one appears to have a

24 sentence underlined. Could you read that to us.

25 A. Well, the whole sentence is a lengthy one, and it says: "As to

Page 5213

1 what the relationships were like between the SRY and Serbia with

2 neighbouring Albania and their possible improvement after the mentioned

3 statement as well as the repercussions on the viewpoints of the leaders of

4 political parties of Albanians in Kosmet, we talked to Dr. Predrag Simic,

5 the director of Institute for International Politics and Economics, and

6 Ratomir Tanic, advisor for international relations in the Novo Demokratija

7 party, with experts who took part in the negotiations for a solution to

8 the Serbian-Albanian problem in Kosmet, Kosovo and Metohija."

9 Q. Thank you. And in the remaining highlights, you will see a name

10 underlined. Is that your name, in fact, that's been underlined?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Unless Your Honours wish me to have the entire

13 article written, I understand that the translation is available tomorrow.

14 Thank you. That deals with that.

15 Now, the second document that Your Honours have asked for

16 clarification was the document 148, which was marked, I believe, as an

17 attachment to this witness's statement as item TX-5, and TX-5 was noted in

18 the statement to be missing a page, as it were, and in fact, TX-6 in the

19 statement was a document which included the first five pages in TX-5 and

20 the additional pages -- the balance of page 5 and a final page as well.

21 That has not been marked as an exhibit. I would ask to substitute

22 TX-6, which we have copies of here, for item TX-5. So if this could have

23 a new exhibit number. This is the entire article.

24 JUDGE KWON: On the front page, there are some parts redacted.

25 What are they?

Page 5214

1 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. Yes. I'm afraid I -- the original, I

2 believe, that has been given to the registrar and marked as an exhibit is

3 in its unredacted form, but I have a redacted copy as well, Your Honour.

4 But I believe the original that has been marked as an exhibit is in

5 unredacted form. 148.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked 148A.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: I propose now, in re-examination, to deal with the

8 third issue that Your Honour has mentioned, but if I may, I propose to ask

9 a few questions about it in the course of re-examination. Thank you.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Tanic, during your cross-examination, you have been

11 challenged about -- that you were never in a position to know many of the

12 matters to which you have testified to. In response, among other things,

13 you've said that you've testified only about those matters which there is

14 independent corroboration for what you say; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, correct. I did not present my overall knowledge because I

16 cannot corroborate my overall knowledge.

17 Q. Yes. Now, sir, in particular dealing with conversations which you

18 refer to both in your evidence and in your statement that you had with

19 Momcilo Perisic while you were preparing your book, I believe you

20 indicated that he showed you a letter dated the spring of 1998 that he

21 apparently sent to the accused Milosevic while Mr. Perisic was still the

22 Chief of Staff of the VJ, and that's at page 19 of your statement. Do you

23 recall testifying to that matter?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in that letter, it's alleged that Mr. Perisic pointed out some

Page 5215

1 six points he referred to as negative facts, and in so doing, in effect

2 complaining that Mr. Milosevic was cutting Mr. Perisic out of the chain of

3 command of the VJ. Do you recall that?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Now, Your Honours, I understand that the book

6 itself has not been marked as an exhibit. I have a copy of it here, and I

7 understand the accused was provided with a copy, or borrowed the copy - I

8 don't know if that's been returned - but an extract of page 160, I

9 believe, was entered as Exhibit 150.

10 Now, I just want to ask some questions about it.

11 Q. First of all, sir, I'm showing you -- if you could look at me, I'm

12 showing you a book which is authored by Messrs. Dejan Lukic and Pero

13 Simic, and its translated title is "Fire and Flood." Are you familiar

14 with that book?

15 A. No. I saw that book for the first time three or four days ago,

16 when I was provided with a photocopy of Perisic's letter.

17 Q. All right.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the usher assist. I'm just going to show

19 this page, the inside page, which indicates its publication date, please.

20 Could you show that could the witness.

21 Q. There appears -- I'm showing you a single page of that book, which

22 appears to have the names of the two authors at the top, a title in the

23 middle, and then an address and date as to publication. Can you tell us

24 what that is?

25 A. The title page of the book, Filip Visnjic is a publishing house in

Page 5216

1 Belgrade, 2001. Pero Simic and Dejan Lukic are the authors of the book

2 "Fire and Food," which is the title of the book.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: And perhaps I might -- I don't know whether it's

4 gone in as part of the exhibit or not, but I have a copy of that title

5 page. Was it marked originally as part of Exhibit 150? Thank you. All

6 right.

7 Q. Now, sir, if you could -- sorry. I'm going to turn to page 160

8 that book.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher.

10 Q. At page 160 of that book, labelled Appendix 2, you will find a

11 letter dated the 23rd of July 1998 from Momcilo Perisic, addressed to

12 then-President Slobodan Milosevic of the FRY. Is that the letter to which

13 you referred in your evidence? Is that the letter that you were shown?

14 A. Yes. And I know that because it wasn't just the letter that was

15 shown to me but Mr. Perisic and I had a long discussion about the contents

16 of that letter. So the letter wasn't just shown to me but it was the

17 subject of a lengthy discussion between me and Mr. Perisic.

18 Q. Now, this letter is dated the 28th of July, 1998, according to its

19 publication date as Appendix 2 to that book. When, approximately, did you

20 first see the letter when you discussed it with Mr. Perisic?

21 A. I knew of the existence of the letter earlier than that, but I saw

22 the letter itself for the first time in the summer of 1999. But I knew

23 that the letter existed immediately after it had been written. But I

24 didn't see it then, I saw it in the summer of 1999.

25 Q. Now, is it true, sir, that you gave your statement to officials of

Page 5217

1 the ICTY over the course of several interviews between the 21st of June,

2 1999, and the 19th of July, 2000?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And we've already seen that, according to the publication date,

5 that letter was not published until 2001. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, absolutely so.

7 Q. Now, secondly, sir, in your statement, I believe in the course --

8 in the English version, pages 30 to 32, and in your evidence, you refer to

9 conveying information to the accused Milosevic about two secret offers of

10 settlement, both just before the bombing commenced and after it had

11 started, and the purpose of that was to indicate that it was possible to

12 negotiate peacefully with the West. You also refer to Zoran Lilic's

13 involvement, in your statement.

14 Would you look at page 166 of that same book. That's Appendix 4.

15 Do you recognise the document at Appendix 4? Just have a look at it, if

16 you would, please.

17 A. I do recognise it, but I recognise the political content of the

18 document, but I didn't see it before a couple of days ago, though I knew

19 of its existence, but I recognise its contents.

20 Q. What is that document?

21 A. It's a document confirming that already at the end of April and

22 the beginning of May there was a possibility, without the violation of the

23 vital interests of Serbia and Yugoslavia, the war with NATO to be ended

24 and the continued suffering of our people to be brought to an end.

25 Q. When is it dated?

Page 5218

1 A. The 5th of May, 1999.

2 Q. Who wrote it?

3 A. Mr. Zoran Lilic. I recognise his signature. I don't know

4 Mr. Zoran Lilic, but I know from Mr. Vuk Draskovic, who spoke with Mr.

5 Lilic several times about peace offers.

6 Q. To whom is the published letter addressed?

7 A. To Mr. Milosevic.

8 Q. You may have already said this, but when did you first see this

9 letter?

10 A. As I said, a couple of days ago.

11 Q. And you referred to the contents or similar contents as is

12 contained in this letter in your statement to the ICTY before you saw this

13 document in its published form; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, indeed.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I do have copies of this particular

16 appendix which may be marked as exhibits in these proceedings. The

17 witness has now recognised it and testified about it. Since we don't have

18 copies of the book, I wonder whether I might be able to tender both the

19 original copies of Appendix 4 and an English translation at this time.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

23 JUDGE MAY: Give it the next exhibit number, please.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

25 152.

Page 5219

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ryneveld.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE KWON: Am I right in understanding that this witness has no

4 idea about -- as to whether Appendix 2 is a photocopy or not?

5 MR. RYNEVELD: I didn't ask that question, but, Your Honour, my

6 understanding is that Exhibit 2 is a photocopy of -- let me double-check

7 because I didn't personally make the copy.

8 JUDGE KWON: Let me ask this: On page 160, there's a date in the

9 first part of the letter which is written 23rd of July, 1998. Are you

10 following me?

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE KWON: And the last page is 164. There once again we have

13 the date, 23rd of July, 1998.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE KWON: To my eye, the letters themselves look different.

16 Could you clarify that matter? Especially the number 7 is different, and

17 9 is different.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I didn't focus on that

19 particular aspect over the brief adjournment we had. Perhaps if you will

20 allow me the opportunity to find out exactly whether this was photocopied

21 or whether it's simply a copy of it, I will undertake to respond.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.


24 Q. Now, Mr. Tanic, during the course of your cross-examination, the

25 accused produced a document purporting to show your registration in your

Page 5220












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5221

1 capacity as a sympathiser with the New Democracy Party. Do you recall

2 being shown that document?

3 A. Yes, I do indeed.

4 Q. He went on to suggest in cross-examination that you were not a

5 member or did not hold any specific function with that political party.

6 Do you recall that aspect of the cross-examination?

7 A. Yes, I do remember.

8 Q. Now, sir, are you familiar with the Bertelsmann Wissenschaftsstung

9 system?

10 A. Yes. I apologise for interfering, but I can offer written

11 evidence that I was an advisor of the president of New Democracy. Even

12 the Prosecution doesn't have this document because I didn't consider all

13 that to be necessary, and I do indeed apologise. But there is absolute

14 direct evidence of that. I simply didn't know that I needed to prove to

15 the Prosecution what is common knowledge in Belgrade. I'm sorry for the

16 interfering.

17 Q. No need. I'm going to ask -- I'm going to show you some

18 documentation at this point.

19 Sir, what is the Bertelsmann Wissenschaftsstung system? What kind

20 of an organisation is that?

21 A. It is what we call an NGO, a non-governmental organisation, a

22 powerful NGO engaged in investigating peace settlements in various parts

23 of the world. It is linked to the German government, and the director of

24 the research project is Mr. Janning, who was an advisor, at that time at

25 least, in the European Union.

Page 5222

1 Q. And did you ever attend any of the conferences of that

2 organisation, that NGO, as a representative of the New Democracy Party?

3 A. Yes, several times, but as a representative of the ruling

4 coalition. And I also did some writing for that foundation.

5 Q. Now, for example, sir, did you attend a conference of the

6 Bertelsmann Wissenschaftsstung in Rhodes in September of 1996?

7 A. Yes. That was when I first brought an original copy of the

8 Milosevic-Holbrooke agreement, which was given to me by the ruling

9 authorities in Serbia, and it was the first time to be taken abroad.

10 Q. Did you attend any further conferences of that organisation?

11 A. Yes. I attended several more, which were also attended by

12 representatives of the Socialist Party of Serbia on two occasions.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I have a series of documents I now

14 wish to show to the witness, if I may. I have the originals and copies.

15 First of all, perhaps we can -- in order to save time, just put

16 the whole bundle in at once to everyone, and then I'll quickly refer to

17 all of them rather than do them piecemeal.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. First of all, here are some originals

20 to go to the registrar, please, Mr. Usher.

21 I intend to deal with these documents in the order that they are

22 being handed out. And for the sake of convenience, perhaps the bundle

23 might get an exhibit number, if Your Honours so choose.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

25 153.

Page 5223

1 MR. RYNEVELD: And for the record, the bundle that I'm handing are

2 six separate documents.

3 Q. First of all, Witness, I'm showing you the first document which

4 has a list of participants with the heading of "The Albanian Question in

5 the Balkans in Rhodes September 5th through 6th of 1996." Do you see that

6 document, the front page? Sorry. I'm just asking you to look at the

7 front page now.

8 Mr. Tanic, the question is: Do you see the page --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- list of participants, "The Albanian Question of the Balkans in

11 Rhodes September 5th and 6th, 1996?"

12 I don't have a response from you, sir.

13 A. Yes, yes, I do. Yes.

14 Q. Looking at the second page following that, there's a number of

15 people listed as having been participants in that -- at that conference,

16 and on the second page, under number K0224112, your name appears fourth

17 from the bottom. Do you see that? On the English version.

18 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

19 Q. And you are described there as the conciliarly to the president

20 and secretary for international relations of New Democracy in Belgrade.

21 Was that your function when you attended that particular conference?

22 A. Yes. And I can also provide my own documents; my party booklet,

23 my card, party card.

24 Q. I'm not asking for that. I'm simply asking whether you recognise

25 your name and described title as a participant at that conference. You're

Page 5224

1 nodding your head, being yes?

2 A. Yes, yes, yes.

3 Q. Very quickly, sir, look at the next document, list of participants

4 in Munich, 21st to 22nd of January 1997, the same organisation. Front

5 page, third name from the bottom, is that your name and your affiliation

6 to New Democracy Belgrade?

7 A. I simply can't find the page. I do apologise. Is it -- does it

8 refer to Rhodes or something else?

9 Q. This.

10 A. Yes, yes. You're right, quite. I see it now, yes.

11 Q. The next document titled List of Participants, Strategies and

12 Options for Kosovo in Athens June 4th and 5th 1997. That's the

13 title page. Over the page, your name, third from the bottom -- fourth

14 from the bottom. And again your affiliation with New Democracy Belgrade.

15 Correct?

16 A. Yes, yes. Indeed.

17 Q. Next document. List of Participants, Strategies and Options for

18 Kosovo in Halki, September 7th through 10th 1997. Next page, your name

19 fourth from the bottom, New Democracy, Belgrade?

20 A. Yes, yes. Yes.

21 Q. And quickly, next document, again List of Participants, Strategies

22 and Options for Kosovo, Thessaloniki, April 20th and 21st 1998. Your

23 name, two pages down, looks to be about sixth from the bottom. Again New

24 Democracy, Belgrade?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 5225

1 Q. And finally --

2 A. I see it. I can see it.

3 Q. -- Balkans Security Risks and Implications for the European Union,

4 again in Halki, September 7th through 9th 1998, and your name, second

5 page, second from the bottom, again New Democracy, Belgrade? Correct?

6 A. Yes. Correct.

7 Q. Sir, do you recall a press conference on the 15th of September,

8 1994, wherein you were described in that press release that you were now

9 a -- or words to the effect that you were now an advisor to the president

10 of the New Democracy Party, responsible for international questions?

11 A. Yes, of course.

12 Q. I'm going to show you, sir, first of all -- excuse me just one

13 moment.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I have copies of a press release

15 dated the 16th of September 1994, both in its Cyrillic text, showing its

16 source, then the second page is an enlarged copy of the article to which

17 I'm referring, and the third page is an English translation of that

18 article. If I might tender that as the next exhibit.

19 Q. Sir, first of all, do you recognise this as being a photocopy of

20 what appears to be a publication known as Politika, dated the 16th of

21 September, 1994?

22 A. Yes. It is Politika, the official organ of the Republic of

23 Serbia. That is subject to censorship, therefore, only data that are

24 correct can be published. And I do recognise this report.

25 Q. Sir, there's no need to give additional information. I'm asking

Page 5226

1 you, first of all, do you recognise this as being -- and you've answered

2 that. Now, I'd like you to turn your attention to the bottom third --

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. -- bottom quarter, as it were. There seems to be an article which

5 has as a headline, "New Democracy Press Conference." Do you see that

6 article on the bottom quarter, right-hand corner of the page?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And if you'll turn the page, please, in the bundle, there appears

9 to be an enlargement of that particular article.

10 A. Yes, I see it.

11 Q. And does this article describe you as having recently resigned

12 from the office of the vice-president and having left the Civic Alliance

13 of Serbia and becoming a member of the New Democracy Party?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does it go on to describe what your position would be with respect

16 to the New Democracy Party? Was something announced there? Just look at

17 that first paragraph.

18 A. Yes. Yes. I've looked at it. It does --

19 Q. Okay. What does it say --

20 A. -- publish that.

21 Q. -- your job would be and what you would soon do, according to the

22 press release from the party?

23 A. It is said that my job would be advisor to president of New

24 Democracy for international affairs and a member of the Executive Board of

25 the party.

Page 5227

1 Q. Thank you. Just a few other questions, if I may, sir. Because

2 time is of the essence, if possible if you could respond to my questions

3 -- oh, I'm sorry.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Might we have an exhibit number before I move on in

5 my haste.

6 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 154.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Madam Clerk.

8 Q. Wherever possible, sir, just short succinct answers would be good.

9 Have you maintained contact with Mr. Mihajlovic since you became a witness

10 for the Prosecution?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you ever tell Mihajlovic that you would be giving evidence at

13 this trial?

14 A. No. But we did discuss the problems linked to this trial.

15 Q. Again, just confining your answers, if possible, to yes or no, was

16 the figure of the Albanian population in Kosovo being less than a million

17 ever discussed in parliament or within the circles where you moved, to

18 your knowledge?

19 A. It was mentioned in private conversations by officials, in

20 parliament -- in parliament, as far as I know, it was not, but I wasn't

21 fully aware of what was happening in parliament, and I apologise for not

22 being able to provide a full answer.

23 Q. Are you aware whether it was ever discussed as anybody's official

24 policy?

25 A. No. In no parliament was the problem of Kosovo ever discussed in

Page 5228

1 that way or from the standpoint of investigating any other problems

2 either.

3 Q. Sir, has anyone ever suggested to you that you were kidnapped by

4 anyone other than the Serbs?

5 A. No. The results of the investigation showed officially that they

6 were Serbs.

7 Q. And have you pursued any legal remedy or civil redress for this

8 kidnapping from any source?

9 A. I asked the Minister of the Interior, Mihajlovic, and the heads of

10 the State Security Service that the persons who perpetrated the

11 kidnapping, after they were identified through an official investigation,

12 that they should be arrested and charged. I personally did not undertake

13 any steps because I do not have the conditions to do that.

14 Q. So you complained and you sought that something be done about that

15 fact, is that correct, through official channels?

16 A. Yes, together with the names that the investigation came up with,

17 the people who had kidnapped me and my wife and tortured me, and

18 everything else that I reported on.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: I just have one final matter, Your Honour. I

20 understand there was a previous document that was tendered for which there

21 was no translation, and I believe that we now -- this was supposedly --

22 this was during the course of Milosevic's cross-examination last day. He

23 tried to tender this particular document. We now have a translation

24 available, and perhaps this would be an appropriate time to introduce

25 that.

Page 5229


2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Otherwise, I believe I've come to the

3 end of my re-examination of this witness. Thank you, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Give that an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Defence Exhibit

6 12.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tanic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

8 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it.

9 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, I have a few questions.

10 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry.

11 JUDGE KWON: Before I ask some questions, could he be given an

12 English version of his statement, because I notice there are some

13 discrepancies between the page numbers.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: No usher. May I approach the witness to -- oh,

15 there he is.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tanic, I'd like to ask a few questions regarding

18 your written statements. It's on page 10 of your statements, English

19 version. On the last part of third paragraph, you mention that: "Mr.

20 Milosevic stated that there will be no negotiations, that he would prove

21 there were less than 1 million Albanians, that war was nothing, and that

22 there would be ethnic cleansing."

23 I'd like to ask the -- ask about the final sentence about ethnic

24 cleansing. Is that the exact words that Mr. Milosevic had said at that

25 time?

Page 5230

1 A. Yes. Those are the words that Mr. Milosevic used, and other words

2 too, that we would throw them out, who weren't -- I can't repeat all the

3 words that were said, because quite simply ...

4 JUDGE KWON: But in other parts of your statement, you said it is

5 your conclusion, your speculations.

6 Let's turn to page 20, third paragraph. At the last part, you

7 said: "I concluded that Milosevic had a policy of killing Kosovo Albanian

8 civilians." Oh, there might be a little difference, but -- so you are

9 maintaining that Mr. Milosevic said to throw out the Albanians?

10 A. I do claim that, but everything that I need to prove and

11 everything that cannot be proved I have taken upon myself personally. I

12 think that was obvious throughout my testimony. But, yes, I do claim that

13 Mr. Milosevic said that. There were statements to that effect earlier on,

14 with respect to Croatia and Slovenia.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Then let's go back to page 10 and at the next

16 paragraph, you said that Mr. Martin Lutz asked you to set up a meeting

17 with Mrs. Mira Markovic, and in the middle of the paragraph, you said that

18 you organised the meeting in the spring of 1997. How did you organise

19 that meeting?

20 A. After looking through my documents, I established that this was in

21 fact in 1996, a year earlier. In the spring of 1996. I organised it on

22 the basis of the fact that, as members of the ruling coalition, we had the

23 right to inform each other, one another, and to have talks, and Mr. Lutz

24 asked for assistance in a meeting with Mrs. Markovic, who is an

25 influential political functionary, and that's how the meeting came to be

Page 5231

1 organised, quite simply. Via the official channels of communication

2 between the three ruling coalition parties.

3 JUDGE KWON: So it is your party that organised the meeting,

4 rather than you in person?

5 A. No. I organised it through the channels of official

6 communication. I wasn't a friend of Mrs. Markovic at all.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Turn to page 11 then. In the third paragraph,

8 you pointed out some difference between two autonomies. I'll read it.

9 "However, after concluding this agreement with Holbrooke, Milosevic sent

10 Serb negotiators to Kosovo 13 times to discuss the autonomy of the

11 province and not of the Kosovo Albanians, thus acting completely opposite

12 to a political solution."

13 What is the difference between the autonomy of the province and

14 that of people?

15 A. The difference lies in the fact that the autonomy of the people,

16 in this case the Albanians, incorporates the rights to their specific

17 national political identity within the frameworks of Serbia and

18 Yugoslavia. And the autonomy for the whole province would imply that, for

19 example, 1.000 members of the Roma people or 100 Egyptians, for example,

20 living in Kosovo should be equated with the 1.2 million, approximately, of

21 Albanians. So that is the difference and that is the difference that was

22 always insisted upon so precision was always made whether what was

23 referred to was the autonomy of the province or the autonomy of the Kosovo

24 Albanians.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Then page 12, at the third paragraph, you

Page 5232

1 said that the Italian ambassador in Belgrade asked you to convey to Mr.

2 Milosevic their willingness to assist in eliminating the KLA. Why did the

3 Italians choose you to convey their willingness? In what capacity did you

4 have contact with them?

5 A. For two reasons: One is that I had personally good contacts with

6 the Italian political establishment and the ambassador in question; and

7 the second reason was that my party was considered to be the most liberal

8 within the frameworks of the ruling coalition. And so usually all the

9 messages that were to be conveyed and prepared -- and to prepare a more

10 liberal solution usually went via our party, my party. And I, as the

11 advisor of the president, was present there.

12 JUDGE KWON: My last question is that, at page 25, the third

13 paragraph: "Milosevic knew that there would be a NATO attack if he

14 continued ethnic cleansing of the Kosovo Albanians or other violent

15 operations in Kosovo. In the summer of 1998, I was informed of this by my

16 Western contacts."

17 Could you clarify, what you mean by these "Western contacts"?

18 A. The Italian, British, German diplomacy. The diplomacies of those

19 countries, not the intelligence services, the diplomacies of those

20 countries, to send out a warning that the problem should be avoided.

21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, in connection with this

23 question, may I be allowed, with regard to the question that Mr. Kwon

24 asked, may I ask a question myself?

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, one question.

Page 5233












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5234

1 Further cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] And I'd like to divide it up into two or three.

3 What kind of ethnic cleansing of Albanians and, generally speaking, the

4 suffering of the Albanians existed before the war began?

5 A. You mean with the Albanians or with the NATO pact?

6 Q. Before the NATO pact aggression against Yugoslavia began. That's

7 what I'm asking about. What kind of mass suffering of Albanians were

8 these?

9 A. At the Cicavica mountain, on the Kosovo side of Mount Kopaonik, at

10 Laba, six weeks after the Serb forces had regularly taken control of Junik

11 and that the international community agreed to, six weeks after that,

12 ethnic cleansing was continued via Cicavica mountain and on the Kosovo

13 side of Kopaonik and Labo. That is just one example. And the Serb

14 victims, these continued among the police force and the army.

15 Q. Are you thinking about the event in Racak? Do you believe that to

16 be some kind of ethnic cleansing?

17 A. No. I quoted just one example. To quote other examples would

18 take up too much time. And I too would like to say something. As His

19 Honour Judge May said this morning, he said I would be allowed to say a

20 few words at the end this morning.

21 Q. I am asking you the following: Do you consider that the so-called

22 massacre, as Walker referred to it, in Racak was in fact that ethnic

23 cleansing of Albanians before the war?

24 JUDGE MAY: No. That's a matter which we're going to have to deal

25 with. We're going to have to consider that.

Page 5235

1 Now, is there any other question that you want to ask arising from

2 what Judge Kwon said?

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. How many Albanians -- before the NATO aggression started, how many

5 Albanians were killed in Kosovo by, as you claim, the forces of Serbia and

6 Yugoslavia? How many Albanians at all died in Kosovo before the war

7 began?

8 A. Not -- I'm not -- it wasn't a question of killing but that they

9 were expelled from their homes, their passports were torn up, all these

10 things. So not just killings. They were expelled from their houses,

11 their ID papers and passports were torn up to destroy their identity and

12 similar things. Of course, the Serb forces did not fully fulfil your

13 wishes, thank God.

14 Q. Do you know that at that time, that is to say until the beginning

15 of the war, there was the Verification Mission present in Kosovo, the OSCE

16 one? Are you aware of that?

17 A. Well, you called their results false. Now, if you recognise them

18 now, there's no problem.

19 Q. I'm talking about the Verification Mission and their presence in

20 Kosovo. And as you know very well, there is no ethnic cleansing and

21 everything that you're claiming there. There were 1.300 verifiers there.

22 A. As far as I know, in their reports and in your talks to Yeltsin

23 and other statesmen, massacres were always mentioned and expulsions as

24 well. They weren't always killings. At the Cicavica plant in the Kosovo

25 part of Kopaonik and after Junik was returned, that was what triggered off

Page 5236

1 this wave of refugees to Albania, and Albania refugees and in Montenegro.

2 So the Serb forces did not carry out all your orders and that serves to

3 their honour.

4 Q. And do you know, for example, that all of the foreign politicians

5 so far said that Racak was in fact what triggered off the whole --

6 JUDGE MAY: No. I'm not going to continue this. That's a comment

7 which you make frequently, and it's of no help putting it again.

8 The registrar wishes to make a correction about Defence exhibits.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The letter from the Ministry of

10 Internal Affairs is actually D12, and the statement by New Democracy dated

11 14 May 2002 is D13.

12 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

13 Mr. Tanic, our procedures do not allow for statements by

14 witnesses. I understand that there are some documents which you wish to

15 hand over. The way to do that is to give them to the Prosecution. You

16 could now speak to the Prosecution since your evidence is over. Give them

17 to the Prosecution, and they can then deal with them and put them in front

18 of the Court as need be.

19 That concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the

20 Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

21 We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

25 THE ACCUSED: Mr. May, can I --

Page 5237

1 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. Let's get the -- I thought the

2 witness was going to be in. We've been a very long time during this

3 break.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: I thought the witness was going to be in.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, during the break, I have been supplied

7 with a bunch of documents from the last witness. As you know, once a

8 witness leaves --

9 JUDGE MAY: I said he was to give them to you. Mr. Ryneveld, what

10 do you want to do with them?

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, we will present these documents to the

12 Court in due course. In the interim and in fairness, I have on the ELMO

13 at the moment, subject to the Court's permission, three photographs which

14 the Court ought see at this particular point since this witness's -- since

15 the previous witness's evidence has been questioned. They're photographs

16 that show him in the company of Mr. Milosevic, in the company of

17 Mr. Mihajlovic, and in the company of Mr. Milutinovic. In just one

18 second, I've shown them both to the amici and to the accused.

19 The issue of his credibility is for this Court, but I would submit

20 that it's important that it be shown immediately that some of the things

21 that he's been testifying to are in fact borne out in documentary fashion.

22 That is in addition to documents we will be presenting in due course by

23 leave of the Court.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We've seen the documents, the photographs.

25 Thank you.

Page 5238

1 Yes, Mr. Milosevic, what do you want to say?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I first say something with

3 respect to those photographs, as the other side mentioned them, brought

4 them up?


6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that photograph, for example,

7 where you can see the reception of the Novo Demokratija delegation, that

8 particular photograph showing the reception indicates what I said, that it

9 was a delegation that numbered numerous people. And as you can see,

10 Mr. Tanic was escorting this delegation, which is borne out by his

11 position in the photograph. And I suppose they used him to bring in some

12 books or pictures or something else that they needed. So there's no

13 question of a meeting between himself, myself, and Mihajlovic, but it was

14 a mass reception of the delegation of the Novo Demokratija Party. And at

15 any rate, we heard the opposite side presenting a series of evidence here

16 that proves nothing except that he was an employee of the Novo Demokratija

17 Party in the capacity of --

18 JUDGE MAY: You can present evidence on it in due course.

19 Meanwhile, we've seen the photographs, we will have them exhibited. Next

20 Prosecution exhibit number, please.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I also have an answer, a response to

22 the question asked by Mr. Robinson, and I wasn't able to answer him

23 because I did not have knowledge of the legal rules, but in the break, I

24 have procured the answer, the exact answer to his question.

25 According to the district court procedure and rules, I'm talking

Page 5239

1 about Belgrade, Article 199, paragraph 3 says that if somebody is

2 convicted in a trial, according to legal proceedings, and receives a

3 prison sentence of up to one year, this material is kept for a period of

4 ten years. All the papers are kept for a period of ten years, after which

5 they are destroyed. But a permanent record is kept of them for the

6 purposes of the court. So it is completely uncontestable what it says in

7 the attestation given by the district court which I supplied in the

8 original. It is quite clear that Mr. Tanic was found guilty for the crime

9 of robbery and --

10 JUDGE MAY: We have the explanation.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. All right. If you have

12 that, then let me move on to my next objection, and that has to do with

13 the forthcoming witness, Dr. Eric Baccard. What I want to say is this:

14 You have assumed the position with respect to 38 registers, and I see that

15 there is an enormous amount of physical work done here by the employees of

16 the Tribunal, bringing in piles of files and binders, and you concluded

17 that these 38 binders were a component part of his report. So in that

18 sense, I have an objection to make with respect to your own rules and

19 regulations, because I consider --

20 JUDGE MAY: Let us find out what the binders are here for from the

21 Prosecution and then we can hear any objections.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. May I just explain what I

23 wanted to say, what I wanted to make as an objection?

24 Those 38 binders, they are heavy binders, were sent to me in the

25 English language, the English version, and I think that not even an

Page 5240

1 average literate English man, with respect to the professional terminology

2 used, is not able to read through all that material. And according to

3 your own Rules of Procedure and Evidence, you were duty-bound to supply me

4 with them in the Serbian language because an expert report and finding

5 must be also looked into by my professional associates and not by me

6 alone. And that is why I consider that the cross-examination of this

7 witness can only refer to his report per se, whereas all the other 38

8 binders --

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That is the only material but for some reason,

10 which we haven't yet been enlightened, other documents have been brought

11 in. Let's hear what they're here for and then we can go further from

12 there. But at the moment we know no more about it.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I was about to do that.

14 I might say, Your Honour, there have -- you will recall a

15 discussion with the Prosecution some time ago in open court at which time

16 Mr. Nice outlined the fact that there were a number of binders by

17 municipality that would be of assistance to the Court. The Court made a

18 ruling with respect to what could and could not be contained in those

19 binders, and those binders have now been edited in accordance with the

20 Chamber's ruling as given by Judge Robinson on behalf of the Chamber.

21 These are for the various 12 what have been referred to as killing

22 sites, and they contain a compendium of the material that has been viewed

23 by the Court, at least with respect to -- I believe the Court looked at

24 one sample municipality binder, Bela Crkva. These are now the balance of

25 the binders for the additional municipalities.

Page 5241

1 It made sense, in our respectful submission, that these binders be

2 tendered at this particular time, (a), because we said we would do that as

3 quickly as possible and people have been feverishly working to get this

4 done, and (b), because it relates to the evidence of our expert witness,

5 Dr. Eric Baccard.

6 Dr. Baccard is the forensic pathologist who reviewed all of the

7 various exhumation and pathology reports. He was the supervisor of the

8 pathologists, the various teams who conducted all of the autopsies for

9 these various municipalities. His report was prepared and has been

10 tendered. A copy of all this documentation was given to the accused in

11 black and white prior to the commencement of the trial. He's had this

12 since February.

13 The --

14 JUDGE MAY: So that he can follow this --


16 JUDGE MAY: -- this is all material which has been disclosed.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Correct.

18 JUDGE MAY: All that has happened is that this documentation has

19 been collected and put into binders relating to each place.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Correct. For ease of reference, municipality by

21 municipality, as the Court indicated its preference.

22 JUDGE MAY: It contains no new material; is that right?

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Correct, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MAY: And indeed we did rule, not very long ago, that we

25 would admit these binders for ease of reference.

Page 5242

1 Now, just dealing with Dr. Baccard, the idea, presumably, is that

2 he will refer to his own reports.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: That's correct. But in his report, and just so

4 that the Court, again for ease of reference, this is a potentially tedious

5 and lengthy process. In order to do this as quickly and efficiently and

6 as logical as possible, it was my suggestion that we put the binders in,

7 have them marked as exhibits, dealing with Dr. Baccard, and supply the

8 Court with an index for each site in his report to the tab numbers in the

9 municipal site. In other words, that is the source material for his

10 report.

11 I intend to deal with Dr. Baccard only with respect to his report,

12 and the source material will be referenced to the Court in case the court

13 wants to refer to the actual reports by tab number.

14 For example, if we deal with, say, Bela Crkva site, we have an

15 index for Bela Crkva. It's two binders, and it deals at tab 8 with the

16 British forensic team exhumation report. That goes site by site, how many

17 binders, and exactly what tab number refers to references in Dr. Baccard's

18 report and its table of contents. That, we thought was the most efficient

19 way to deal with it. Unless the Court has a preference for me to do it

20 piecemeal and one by one. We'll be here quite awhile if I have to do

21 that.

22 JUDGE MAY: So that we have the position fully, all this material

23 has been disclosed?

24 MR. RYNEVELD: That's correct, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MAY: You have arranged it in this way and have been allowed

Page 5243

1 to do so so that not only the Trial Chamber but the parties can find their

2 way around the material. The witness will refer to his reports; is this

3 right?

4 MR. RYNEVELD: That is correct, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: But only if there is a requirement to look at some

6 original which is referred to in the report will it be necessary to look

7 at these binders.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely correct. It may be that those binders

9 will not have to be touched during the course of my examination of this

10 witness.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. Thank you.

12 MR. KAY: Your Honour, sorry to interrupt, but it may be that we

13 have an understanding of this problem. It's the translation of the

14 material within those binders that has been the problem for the accused.

15 The disclosure has been in the English language. I know for our part that

16 Mr. Tapuskovic has had to have the binders translated to him by his

17 assistant from the English language to the B/C/S.

18 JUDGE MAY: It's all been disclosed, as I understand it. These

19 binders contain nothing new. That's the crucial point.

20 MR. KAY: Not in the B/C/S, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've heard the debate. The binders

22 contain nothing new; they merely contain documents which have been

23 disclosed before. The witness will give evidence from his report, and can

24 be cross-examined about it.

25 If some issue arises about nondisclosure in B/C/S, then we'll

Page 5244

1 listen to it at the time, but for the moment, we will go on, and we'll

2 deal with the report. The binders are a complete side issue at the

3 moment.

4 Yes. Let's call the evidence.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I state something further,

6 please, another piece of information? The binders or, rather, the

7 documents were given in colour only on Friday. For professionals to

8 examine these, it makes a difference whether the photographs are in black

9 and white or in colour, and when they were supplied, because professionals

10 are not able to examine them, black and white differs from colour.

11 Now, as none of these binders have been provided in the Serbian

12 language and in view of the fact that on Friday, that is to say --

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, stop. There is a confusion here. The

14 binders are not new material. They are old material which has been

15 arranged in a different way for the convenience of all, including your

16 side, so that when you come to a particular site, you will have all the

17 evidence about it.

18 Now, let us not continue this argument. You've had, I suspect, a

19 long time to prepare for it. Now we'll have -- I think we don't have a

20 number for those last photographs. We'll have a number for them and then

21 we'll have the witness.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The three photographs will be

23 marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 155.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. May I say what I --

25 JUDGE MAY: No. No. You've made your point. Let us call the

Page 5245

1 witness. We have now wasted 20 minutes and more with argument. Let us

2 call the witness, and if there are difficulties about it and examination

3 of him, we'll hear you in due course, but let's hear his evidence.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I call Dr. Eric Baccard. And while we're awaiting

5 his arrival, I might just add that Dr. Baccard's report has also been

6 disclosed in B/C/S.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE MAY: Would you take the declaration, please. Yes.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

15 Q. Dr. Baccard, I understand, sir, that you are the chief forensic

16 pathologist for the ICTY in Kosovo, and you've been acting as a consultant

17 to the ICTY; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. You've been a medical doctor since 1981?

20 A. Yes, that's also correct.

21 Q. You received your speciality in pathology in 1985?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. I received that in 1985, but I had begun it

23 much earlier than that.

24 Q. Yes. You had some subspecialties as well, and in 1980, you

25 received a speciality in evaluation of bodily damage; is that correct?

Page 5246












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5247

1 A. Yes. That's what we call the evaluation of bodily damage.

2 Q. Yes. And you've also completed a speciality in forensic

3 criminalistics, which includes such things as DNA, the forensic criminal

4 aspects of pathology?

5 A. Yes. The diploma was issued in Paris and is known as a diploma in

6 criminology.

7 Q. All right. And, sir, you also received your diploma in wound

8 ballistics in 1994; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. I think that must -- it must have been that year. Yes, it

10 was a diploma from the faculty of medicine of Marseilles, and I was in the

11 top of my class.

12 Q. Now, Dr. Baccard, I understand that as part of your report, you

13 have submitted your curriculum vitae at page 80 of your 154-page report;

14 is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. Very, very briefly, sir, so that the Court understands some

17 background as well, you are not only a forensic pathologist but a wound

18 ballistics expert for France; is that correct?

19 A. Yes. I am an expert in forensic medicine, and an expert as well

20 for the Cour de Cassation, the only expert at that court in France,

21 authorised by that court as a forensic pathologist with specialisation in

22 ballistics, ballistic wounds.

23 Q. Over the years since you developed your expertise, are you able to

24 estimate how many written expert reports you may have submitted to various

25 courts in your home country of France?

Page 5248

1 A. Well, it would be difficult to give you an exact figure. I think

2 it must be several thousand.

3 Q. And, sir, have you been permitted by the courts -- qualified as an

4 expert and allowed to express opinions in oral testimony in the courts of

5 France concerning your field of expertise?

6 A. Yes. I am on the list of experts for the appeals court of

7 Grenoble and, as I said, I am on the national list of experts with

8 authorisation or qualification from the Cour de Cassation.

9 Q. All right. Sir, turning to your work history with respect to

10 matters of the Balkans conflict, I understand that you were the chief

11 forensic pathologist for the ICTY in Kosovo in March of 2000; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct. I worked also with the Office of the

14 Prosecutor in 1999 in Visoko in Bosnia and then in Zagreb in Croatia as a

15 forensic pathologist. In March of 2000 that I took over the direction of

16 the Orahovac morgue.

17 Q. And when you say you took over the direction of the Orahovac

18 morgue, were you in charge of a number of forensic pathologists who were

19 conducting the autopsies? Were you the chief pathologist?

20 A. Yes, that's correct. When I talk about being in charge, I'm

21 talking about scientific responsibility, and as such, my responsibilities

22 were also myself to carry out, to perform autopsies and also to personally

23 supervise the work carried out by my various foreign colleagues who came

24 to the ICTY morgue in Orahovac in 2000, as they would come one by one.

25 Q. Now, sir, I take it then during the course of your duties you

Page 5249

1 reviewed a number of reports prepared by these different international

2 teams of pathologists; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct. Not only did I supervise the performance of

4 the autopsies in 2000 in Orahovac, but I also reread all of the reports

5 that have been drafted by my colleagues during that period.

6 Q. Dealing very briefly with the methodology that you used in

7 compiling your report, are you able to give the Court an indication as to

8 how many sites and subsites there may have been into which you have, shall

9 we say, divided your report?

10 A. Yes. The sites are listed in my report on page 9. These are the

11 sites at Bela Crkva, Djakovica, the Milos Gilic Street incident, Djakovica

12 the incident on Ymer Grezda Street, in Dubrava in the Dubrava prison, in

13 Izbica, in Kotlina, in Krusha e Vogel, in Padalishte, in Racak, in

14 Stagovo, Studime e Eperme, in Suva Reka and Vata.

15 Q. Am I correct, sir, in saying that there were some 11 main sites of

16 which one had four subsites, in your report?

17 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. All right. Now, sir, is it my understanding that all of the

19 bodies, wherever they were found, would have been transported to the

20 mortuaries in Orahovac where you were working, apart from the ones that

21 were in Pristina?

22 A. In referring to the year -- the mission for 2000, yes. For 1999,

23 no.

24 Q. All right. In 1999, where were they?

25 A. The bodies were autopsied in morgues, either official morgues or

Page 5250

1 improvised ones, and carried out by the various international pathologist

2 teams and the location of the autopsies is indicated for each site in my

3 report.

4 Q. All right. Now, sir, perhaps we can just give the Court a

5 thumbnail sketch as to how it is that you went about preparing your

6 report. I take it that you received individual pathology reports from the

7 various international teams that had performed autopsies from various

8 sites; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct. The first task that I had to carry out was

10 to identify what the sources of information in terms of forensic medicine

11 existed to which I could refer.

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. That first step thus allowed us to bring out several documents on

14 which I could base my analysis. I am referring now to the autopsy reports

15 but also to the anthropological expertise reports, the examination reports

16 on crime sites -- at crime sites, the albums of photographs and both

17 photographs that were taken during the autopsies and/or photographs taken

18 on site, and sometimes as well there was testimony of witnesses. In one

19 specific case, which is the case of Izbica, in addition to the documents

20 previously listed, I worked from a copy of the video cassette and

21 photographs which had been extracted from that video cassette.

22 Q. Just so that we're clear, sir, these reports that you had

23 available to you were complete reports with photographs, et cetera, and

24 you're aware that they have now been placed into various binders by site;

25 is that correct?

Page 5251

1 A. The reports were, in fact, reports that were more or less complete

2 because each international team had its own way of working, and the

3 reports were accompanied with the photographs, of course. And I know that

4 the reports were put into binders on which I worked.

5 Q. And just so that we're clear, the reference to certain reports are

6 contained in your report, and they refer to the individual reports

7 prepared by other forensic teams which you examined, reviewed, and

8 commented upon; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Sir, you carried out, as I understand it, a rather exhaustive

11 review of all of these reports. That took you approximately six months or

12 so?

13 A. I think that we could say that it was an average of about six

14 months. Six months of work that I did.

15 Q. And where you found errors or discrepancies or issues that you did

16 not agree with or were not supported in your review, did you make a note

17 of those observations in your report to the Court?

18 A. Yes. That's true. Also when I spoke about the first stage of the

19 methodology that was used, that is to -- to go through the various

20 documents I had available to me, that stage was then followed by another

21 one which was to read the reports prepared by my colleagues and to compare

22 them with the other reports that had been made by crime scene technicians

23 and to compare them to the photographs that were taken at the time of the

24 autopsies and on the sites.

25 In the annex of this report, there are several documents which

Page 5252

1 point out to discrepancies I might have -- that I sometimes noted during

2 the comparative study.

3 Q. So where you found discrepancies between the report and your own

4 observations, you would have made a note of them in your report; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct. And the contradictions are pointed out in

7 the annex.

8 Q. All right. Now, you mention that there was one somewhat unusual

9 site in the sense that the bodies had not been autopsied themselves, I

10 take it. Is that correct? I'm referring, of course, to Izbica.

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. How did that site differ from the other sites?

13 A. I'll speak of the difference only in respect on the level of how

14 my report was drafted and not in respect of observations that might have

15 been made on site. As regarded my work, available to me I had only

16 fragmentary information, because the evaluation reports that were

17 performed -- evaluations carried out by the French team on site had not

18 been based on the performance of autopsies but, rather, on an examination

19 of the crime scene and examinations of vestiages of clothing and weapons,

20 munitions remnants, and sources of information which came from that

21 traditional way of working was rather reduced.

22 Fortunately, I was given, as I said initially, I was given a video

23 cassette which showed bodies, and that video cassette and the photographs

24 extracted from it were, among other things, some of the things which

25 allowed me to give a forensic interpretation in respect of the photographs

Page 5253

1 that I examined.

2 Q. Just to summarise, if I may, the reason there were no autopsies

3 performed on the bodies that were to be at the Izbica site is because the

4 bodies were not there; is that correct? They had been removed?

5 A. That's right. The observations made by the French team and which

6 appear in the report refer to exhumations after an initial burial.

7 Therefore, exhumation of bodies which explains that at the time of the

8 evaluative work carried out by the French team, no body was found except

9 for some human remains which were, as well as signs of exhumation which

10 had been carried out beforehand.

11 Q. What you did have available to you is a video of the bodies that

12 were sort of in place, supposedly at that particular scene, taken before

13 the initial burial; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. The video cassette that I reviewed, along with the

15 photographs that had been extracted from that video cassette, showed the

16 presence of several bodies. I had no forensic pathologist with me with

17 the technical possibilities to determine whether this was a place where an

18 execution had been carried out or not.

19 Q. And you conducted your assessment of these bodies by means of the

20 -- both the video and the still photographs taken from that video; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. In my report, I also mentioned the

23 observations made by the French expert team, in particular as regards the

24 ^T

25 clothing or bits of clothing that were exhumed during the crime scene

Page 5254

1 evaluation.

2 Q. Sir, is this method that you were forced to adopt in this

3 particular instance, i.e., making your diagnoses, as it were, from photos

4 and videos, is that an accepted pathological -- within your field of

5 pathology, is that an accepted method and are there some limitations on

6 that method if it is in fact an accepted method?

7 A. As regards, first of all, the frequency with which that method is

8 used, I would say that it is not part of the so-called routine

9 evaluations. However, it is used rather often. In particular during my

10 work in France, sometimes Judges designate us as experts in order to carry

11 out an analysis on the basis of photographic documents or videos showing

12 bodies of victims. That's the first point.

13 The second point is that I also used this method in other -- under

14 other circumstances, and I am referring here to a mission that I carried

15 out for the United Nations investigation commission in the Ivory Coast in

16 March and April of 2001, that is last year, where in the absence of access

17 authorisation for the expert team, access to the bodies, that is, we

18 worked from documents, video documents and photographic documents. And so

19 in fact, that is a method which is used.

20 However, one must clearly indicate what the limits of this method

21 are. In no case can there be, for us, a question of claiming that that

22 method is a real evaluation. It is only an information -- a forensic

23 information element like any other when we do not have the body. And then

24 in that case, it is necessary to have -- to use the information which is

25 provided to us.

Page 5255

1 Q. One final question on the methodology, sir. Was this also used by

2 you, this method, in any other investigations where you were a pathologist

3 before any other Tribunal?

4 A. That's what I was saying. In France, on several occasions I used

5 this type of method at the request of Judges who designated me as an

6 expert.

7 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. I didn't -- my question wasn't specific enough.

8 Were you involved in an investigation into deaths in the Ivory Coast?

9 A. Yes, that's true, I was.

10 Q. And did you have to adopt a similar methodology in that particular

11 instance and was that accepted?

12 A. Yes, absolutely. That method was accepted, and it was the subject

13 of the annex to the report of the United Nations international

14 investigation committee for -- commission for the Ivory Coast.

15 Q. Dr. Baccard, your report speaks for itself, but I would ask that

16 you perhaps just deal with some of the conclusions that you came to with

17 respect to the various sites, if I may, at this time.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: But before I do that, I wonder, Your Honours,

19 whether I should officially ask to have those binders marked and provide

20 the Court with an index to Dr. Baccard's report, for ease of reference.

21 And then I'm going to ask that the doctor turn to the conclusions starting

22 at page 15 of his report, and I'm just going to ask a few questions and

23 then turn him over for cross.

24 JUDGE MAY: We will admit the binders. How do you propose to go

25 about it, numbering them?

Page 5256

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Well -- excuse me.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm asked if I could recommend to the Court that we

4 mark them as one number per site.


6 MR. RYNEVELD: And then if we do them in the order of this index,

7 starting with Racak, as you'll see from the index that it has two binders,

8 so if we have a number with two separate binders, we're going to be

9 dealing with tab 6, 11, and 12. Those would be in those binders. And

10 then we move on to Bela Crkva, which is a two-binder site; then Krusha e

11 Vogel, et cetera, et cetera. If we go with the index, then we're not

12 going back and forth.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's have the index, please.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I've just been reminded that each site has

15 various binders. Racak, for example, has five binders and each of the

16 tabs per site goes in chronological order. We go to a new site, we start

17 with a new number 1, as it were.

18 So do you have copies of the index? Ah, it's being passed out

19 now.

20 So if you have this index in front you, I think this might be an

21 easy way to keep everything logical. That is, if we start with the Racak

22 binders and give that a number, and then you'll see in binder 1 we have

23 reference to tab 6, and in binder 2 we have reference to tabs 11 and 12,

24 and they're identified in the report what they're about. Binders 3, 4,

25 and 5 have two tabs, 13 and 14, which are relevant to this report. Then

Page 5257

1 we get the next number, which would be Bela Crkva municipality, and give

2 that a different number, et cetera, and go through the report in that --

3 in that way.

4 JUDGE MAY: Let us give each binder, I suggest, a different

5 exhibit number.


7 JUDGE MAY: And perhaps the registrar would do that now, beginning

8 with the next Prosecution exhibit number, give it Racak binder 1 and then

9 go on binder 2, et cetera. Between you, perhaps, Mr. Ryneveld, you would

10 get them numbered. Let's do that now.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. The general order that they will be

12 admitted and numbers will be assigned, I don't -- do you want to do that

13 now?

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let's do it now, then it's done.

15 THE REGISTRAR: I recommend you name this municipality and I'll

16 just number it.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. The Racak municipality.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 156.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Consisting of five binders. Bela Crkva, Orahovac

20 municipality

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 157.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Krusha e Vogel, Malekrusa, Prizren municipality.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 158.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Djakovica, the Ymer Grezda, in Djakovica

25 municipality.

Page 5258

1 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 159.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Djakovica, Millosh Gillic Street of the Djakovica

3 municipality.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 160.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Padalishte, the Istok municipality.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 161.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Izbica of the Srbica municipality.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 162.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Kacanik, Kacanik municipality.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 163.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: There are, I believe, four subbinders there. One

12 would be Kotlina. The second --


14 MR. RYNEVELD: Go ahead.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 163.1.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Dubrava, Dubrava.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 163.2.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Vata.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 163.3.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Stagovo.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 163.4.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Moving on to a new number, Studime e Eperme of the

23 Vushitrn municipality.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 164.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Dubrava Prison, of the Istok municipality

Page 5259












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5260

1 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 165.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: And finally, Suva Reka, of the Suva Reka

3 municipality.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 166.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: We appear to be must -- missing one from the index.

6 I don't know where it went, but we're missing Meja. So we will -- can we

7 make Meja the final one, and I think the binders are there but the page

8 isn't. It's in Djakovica municipality. Can we assign it a number because

9 the binders are here and we will provide an extra page of the index.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Within Djakovica, is that what you said?


12 THE REGISTRAR: So that will be 160.1.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

14 Q. Now, Doctor, do you have a copy of your report with you, and

15 before you turn to it, we can ask permission --

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, in view of the fact that this is an

17 expert witness, might the witness be allowed to refer to his report?

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

20 Q. Do you have your report, Doctor? Very, very briefly, Doctor, in

21 the time remaining to us, dealing with Bela Crkva, which you have at page

22 15, your conclusions at 1.4.1, I understand that this is a British

23 forensic team who performed the initial 54 examinations. Are you able to

24 tell us how many identified victims there were?

25 A. In terms of the problem of identification, one must distinguish

Page 5261

1 two things: First of all, the identification at the time that the

2 autopsies were performed and identifications which were made subsequently

3 as the investigation continued.

4 As regards the percentage of identifications that appear in my

5 report, I'm referring only to identifications that were made at the time

6 that the autopsies were performed and at the time that the reports were

7 drafted.

8 So to answer your question, the British team, directed by Peter

9 Vanezis, carried out 54 post-mortem examinations on 42 identified victims.

10 Q. And were there also some unidentified victims?

11 A. Twelve at the time that the autopsy was performed. Twelve of the

12 24 people I autopsied remained unidentified.

13 Q. Are you able to tell the Court the division of sex or age?

14 A. As regards distribution by sex, 87 per cent of the victims were

15 males and 13 per cent females. 87 per cent were adults and 13 per cent

16 were children.

17 Q. Are you able to determine the nature of the cause of death in what

18 percentage of cases?

19 A. The cause of death that was shown by the British team were gunshot

20 wounds in more than 98 per cent of the cases.

21 Q. All right. And could you tell in general where the location of

22 the wounds, or in the vast majority? Front, back, side, where?

23 A. In most of the cases, the anatomical areas that were hit by

24 projectiles was the trunk, that is, the thorax and abdomen, since almost

25 60 per cent of the gunshot wounds were -- and after that, Professor Peter

Page 5262

1 Vanezis said that the entry points were mostly in the front part of the

2 trunk.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, may I ask Dr. Baccard a question?

4 The conclusions that you have arrived at in your report, taking

5 the British forensic team's report in relation to Bela Crkva as an

6 example, your conclusions are entirely based on the findings in the

7 original report, in this case, the British forensic team report?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the great majority of cases, yes.

9 But in some cases, the conclusions and figures which appear in my report

10 are figures which in a very discrete manner may vary in respect of those

11 figures appearing in the -- my colleague's report. In some cases, in

12 fact, there were some errors pointed out - for instance, the additions in

13 the number of wounds - and those errors were put into the annex of my

14 report when there is a difference with the statistics which appear in my

15 colleague's report.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Apart from those technical

17 discrepancies, if there was a mistake made in the original report which

18 could only be verified by actual examination at the site of the bodies,

19 for example, would you have been able to detect such a mistake?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. That was

21 the case under some of the circumstances, thanks to comparison of the

22 description of the wounds which appear in the expert reports, comparisons

23 with the photographs that were taken at the autopsies. I'm thinking about

24 errors of the side where right was left or other interpretations of

25 wounds. That did happen, yes.

Page 5263

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What about an error as to the cause of death and

2 as to the -- as to how the wound was inflicted? Would you be able to

3 detect that independently?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a general rule, yes.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Continue, Mr. Ryneveld.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

7 Q. In particular, in response to His Honour Judge Robinson's

8 questions, at page 88 of your report, sir, you have itemised remarks about

9 the forensic report of the Bela Crkva site; is that correct? Wait until

10 you find page 88.

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. And there you have, in fact, indicated where you think there are

13 errors in terms of location, description of injuries, precision about the

14 origin of a wound, the location of a wound, whether it's left or right,

15 and a mistake in description of the path and the projectile provoking the

16 gunshot wound; is that correct? You've made -- where you've disagreed,

17 you've made those notations to the Court in your annex, site by site.

18 A. Yes, that's correct. And when I was unable to decide as to one or

19 other possibility, I indicated that as a kind of a question mark to say

20 that there was a doubt as to that specific point.

21 Q. And again in response to His Honour Judge Robinson's question as

22 to how you were able to do that, you did have available to you the various

23 photographs of the -- that were taken by the pathologist who prepared the

24 original report, and you had those available to interpret your own

25 examination findings in your review of their report; is that correct?

Page 5264

1 A. Yes, that's correct. The list of documents on which I relied for

2 my analysis and the summary of the reports was indicated exhaustively and

3 in a limiting manner, indicating each of the paragraphs which was devoted

4 to each site.

5 Q. And for example, for the Bela Crkva site, those photographs would

6 have been contained at tab 8 of the binder for Bela Crkva and those

7 photographs were part of the British report; is that correct?

8 A. I would ask you to repeat the description of the document in

9 binder 8.

10 Q. Well, I'm just giving as an example, as a general way --

11 A. So I can check.

12 Q. For Bela Crkva, those have now been placed -- the report with

13 photographs have been placed in two binders. In those binders, there is

14 tab 8 which contains the British forensic team exhumation report. My

15 question to you is: Those photographs that you reviewed would have been

16 part of the British report; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I'm going to move on, if I may. Very briefly, sir, for the

19 Djakovica Millosh Gillic Street case, is it right that there were an

20 examination carried out by a US forensic team for at least 20 individuals,

21 one male and the rest female?

22 A. Could you please repeat the name of the street?

23 Q. Millosh Gillic Street. I'm referring -- I'm going to go to 1.4.2,

24 page 15.

25 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes, yes, that's correct.

Page 5265

1 Q. How many of those were, shall we say, children that hadn't quite

2 reached adulthood?

3 A. The anthropological examinations that were performed by the

4 experts present say that there were 12, 12 which were not adults.

5 Q. All right. So we have 19 females, one male. Twelve of those were

6 children.

7 A. Well, not quite. As regards determining -- determining the sex in

8 that file, it appears that my American colleagues were dealing with bodies

9 that were very degraded. Sex could be determined only in one case, and it

10 was a male. It was a male in one case. The others were either women or

11 victims whose sex could not be established.

12 Q. Sorry. Yes. I didn't -- either female or undetermined, yes.

13 Okay.

14 Moving on, if I may, to the Djakovica Ymer Grezda Street --

15 JUDGE MAY: This had better be the last question, Mr. Ryneveld,

16 because of the time.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. Yes.

18 Q. Again, this was a report by a US forensic team; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And there were six victims, ranging in age from 31 to 72; correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. And the cause of death was by -- by what? Perhaps I should have

23 you tell us what the cause of death was in those cases.

24 A. The cause of death, as regards the six of them, were wounds to the

25 head caused by gunshot projectiles.

Page 5266

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours. That is my last question.

2 I will be very brief with the witness tomorrow and hopefully finish in

3 about 20 minutes.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now.

5 Dr. Baccard, we have to adjourn. Could you be back, please,

6 tomorrow morning at 9.00 to conclude your evidence. Would you remember in

7 this adjournment and any others there may be not to speak to anybody about

8 your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the

9 Prosecution team.

10 Thank you.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of May,

13 2002, at 9.00 a.m.