Page 7634
1 Monday, 8 July 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours. I intimated last day that
7 Ambassador Vollebaek is available today, and I had asked whether perhaps
8 the last witness might be able to -- I think I used the phrase wrapped
9 around this witness. Ambassador Vollebaek is here now, and I would
10 propose, with the Court's permission, to proceed with Ambassador Vollebaek
11 and then continue thereafter with the continuation of the previous
12 witness, if that meets with the Court's approval.
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE MAY: I think technically you need leave to call
16 Mr. Vollebaek because he wasn't on your original list.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Then I seek oral -- this is an oral application to
18 call Ambassador Vollebaek at this time. I do believe that his materials
19 were served quite some time ago.
20 JUDGE MAY: The statement was disclosed and it was disclosed in
21 B/C/S by the 15th of March.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: That's correct, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MAY: Accordingly, there is no prejudice in calling him now
24 and leave will be given.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
Page 7635
1 JUDGE MAY: He's only available today, is that right?
2 MR. RYNEVELD: That was my understanding, however, upon his
3 arrival a little while ago, apparently his flight schedule is not quite as
4 tight. He could continue on until tomorrow, if necessary, but having made
5 arrangements with the last witness, who is now not here, I don't want to
6 waste a moment's court time.
7 JUDGE MAY: No. We will call this witness and deal with him, if
8 at all possible, today.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: That would be wonderful. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness with take the declaration.
11 WITNESS: KNUT VOLLEBAEK
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
13 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat, Mr. Vollebaek.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
17 Q. Now, Ambassador Vollebaek, I understand, sir, that you started
18 your diplomatic service in the Norwegian diplomatic service in 1973?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And is it also right, sir, that you became the Norwegian Minister
21 of Foreign Affairs in 1997 and served in that capacity until March of the
22 year 2000?
23 A. That is also correct.
24 Q. Now, sir, while you were the Norwegian Minister of Foreign
25 Affairs, did you serve in any other office with the OSCE?
Page 7636
1 A. Yes. In the capacity as Norwegian Foreign Minister, I was
2 chairman in office of the OSCE during the year 1999.
3 Q. And your present function today, sir, is?
4 A. I am Norway's ambassador to the United States of America.
5 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to ask -- back you up to the year of 1993.
6 Did you hold any particular office at that time in relation to the
7 international conference of former Yugoslavia?
8 A. Yes. From the 1st of June, if I recall correctly, until the end
9 of 1993, I was what was called deputy co-chairman of the international
10 conference on former Yugoslavia.
11 Q. And while engaged in that capacity, sir, did you have any
12 involvement in negotiations between particular governments?
13 A. Yes. My main responsibility during those months was to negotiate,
14 or try to negotiate, I should rather say, a settlement between the
15 government of the Republic of Croatia and the government of the so-called
16 Republic of Krajina.
17 Q. And during the course of those negotiations or attempted
18 negotiations, as you phrase it, did you have any dealings with the accused
19 in these proceedings, then President Milosevic?
20 A. Yes, I did. Not a lot, but we thought that Belgrade had some
21 influence on the Republic of Krajina and so we referred to Belgrade from
22 time to time. Then Foreign Minister Jovanovic I met with on several
23 occasions, and I also met with President Milosevic. At least I remember
24 one meeting with him in connection with -- we tried to set up secret
25 negotiations in Norway between the Serbs and the Croats. I guess we -- at
Page 7637
1 that time we were somewhat inspired by other Norwegian colleagues that had
2 achieved something in the Middle East and we thought we could do something
3 similar in this connection. And at that time I met with President
4 Milosevic for him to put pressure on the Serbs in Knin to go along with my
5 proposal for these negotiations in Norway.
6 Q. And did Milosevic at that time appear to be willing to assist you
7 in achieving your objective?
8 A. He did. This was in the early fall, if I recall this correctly.
9 I think the meeting in Norway took place in November, so this must have
10 been -- or maybe October. So this must have been in September, early
11 October. And I went to Belgrade and had a meeting with him, as I said,
12 and at that time, the government of Croatia had battles going on both with
13 the Muslims in Bosnia and at the same time then with the Serbs in Knin, in
14 the Krajina Republic. And I asked for his help, and he said that he would
15 assist me because he felt that it would be difficult for the Croats to
16 fight two fronts at the same time, and according to him, it was more
17 important to fight the Muslims than the Serb -- the Croats should be able
18 to fight the Muslims and in order for the Croats to fight the Muslims, the
19 Serbs should kind of step back and let the Croats fight the Muslims.
20 And his statement, as I still recall very vividly and as I thought
21 of sometimes during 1999 was that the reason why he did this, that we
22 could not have a Muslim republic in Europe.
23 Q. Perhaps you've already explained it, but what did you understand
24 him to mean when he said something about not having two fronts?
25 A. Well, he indicated to me that he was impressed, as I understood
Page 7638
1 it, with the Croat military power, but in spite of the fact that the
2 Croats were good fighters, good military, to have two fronts at the same
3 time would be too much for them. And as I understood him, he thought it
4 was important for all of us, I guess he implied, to fight the Muslims.
5 And then in order to -- to let the Croats concentrate, so to say, on the
6 Muslims, he would ask the government in Knin to participate in the talks
7 that we were going to have in Norway and then, for the time being at
8 least, not pursue military activities.
9 Q. I see. Ambassador Vollebaek, in 1993, what was Milosevic's
10 position? Like, what position did he hold with what government?
11 A. Well, as far as I can recall, he had the same position as he had
12 in 1999; he was President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
13 Q. Why did you go to him in order to attempt to persuade other --
14 other governments or other entities to come to Norway to negotiate?
15 A. Well, we were under the impression that the government in Knin was
16 heavily supported, strongly supported, by the government in Belgrade and
17 then, in casu, then President Milosevic. We knew that members of the Knin
18 government went to Belgrade very often, and we thought and presumed that
19 President Milosevic had a strong influence on the government in Knin. And
20 since the representatives of the Knin government then went to Norway for
21 these talks, later on I was strengthened in my belief that there was an
22 influence from Belgrade on the government of Knin.
23 Q. Because they showed up at the --
24 A. They showed up, yes.
25 Q. I see. Sir, just to take you to more recent times, we've heard in
Page 7639
1 these proceedings considerable evidence from various individuals about the
2 OSCE, but as I understand it, sir, you were the -- you were the chairman
3 of the OSCE. You were the chief executive officer, as it were, in that
4 capacity, were you, of the OSCE?
5 A. Yes. We had a secretary-general, or the OSCE has a
6 secretary-general, which is an employee, but the chairman in office is a
7 politically elected function. It changes every year, so it's held by a
8 Foreign Ministry of one of the member countries for one calendar year, and
9 Norway had been selected then to hold this position for the year of 1999.
10 And since I happened to be the foreign minister at that time, it was my
11 task to be the chairman in office of the organisation for that year.
12 There is -- there is a troika system, which means that you start
13 in -- as a member of the troika the year before and you continue the year
14 after. So I started working with the -- with the issues already in 1998.
15 At that time, it was Professor Geremek, the Foreign Minister of Poland,
16 who held the office as chairman.
17 Q. I see. So you spent a year sort of getting ready to take office
18 the following year?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Then you hold office, and then you sort of hold office for a year
21 to assist the newcomer so that there's, I take it --
22 A. Continuity.
23 Q. -- continuity in the position. I understand. But during 1999
24 when you were the chairman, how many member states were there? How many
25 countries were there that made up the OSCE?
Page 7640
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Page 7641
1 A. There are 54 members. I think there still are 54 members of the
2 OSCE. In 1999, Yugoslavia was suspended, so their chair was vacant, so
3 only 53 countries were present in the organisation.
4 Q. Why was Yugoslavia suspended? Do you know?
5 A. That happened because of the Balkan conflict and the decision by
6 the organisation to suspend it due to the fact that Yugoslavia did not
7 live up to its obligations as a member of the OSCE.
8 Q. To your knowledge, have they now been reinstated?
9 A. They have.
10 Q. Now, you've already made reference, sir, to the previous chairman,
11 Geremek. Was there, in 1998 while you were already working with Geremek,
12 were you aware of a special mandate with respect to Kosovo?
13 A. Yes. The OSCE had by itself, so to say, a mandate for the
14 peaceful settlement of conflicts, for democratisation, for human rights in
15 Europe, but in the dealing with the Kosovo conflict, there were, if I
16 recall correctly, two Resolutions by the Security Council. If my memory
17 doesn't fail me, I think it was 1160 and 1199, but anyway, those
18 Resolutions gave or asked the OSCE to take upon themselves to try to find
19 a peaceful settlement to the Kosovo conflict. And in order to fulfil that
20 request by the Security Council, there were negotiations between the
21 government of Yugoslavia and the OSCE, and there was an agreement signed
22 between Foreign Minister Geremek, and I think it was signed by Foreign
23 Minister Jovanovic of Yugoslavia in October 1998 that should then lead up
24 to the presence of OSCE in Yugoslavia and specifically then in Kosovo.
25 Q. You are aware, I take it, of a document known as the Holbrooke
Page 7642
1 agreement? Is this in substitution for or in addition to or totally
2 separate from what has been colloquially referred to as the
3 Milosevic-Holbrooke agreement?
4 A. My understanding is that the Holbrooke-Milosevic agreement should
5 be in support of the role of the OSCE and of the peaceful settlement. I
6 didn't always feel it that way, I must admit, when I spoke to
7 Mr. Milosevic about it, because when I -- well, the formal basis for our
8 presence was, of course, the OSCE agreement, and we had a mandate on that
9 basis. But at the same time, it was this additional agreement, as you
10 said, the Holbrooke-Milosevic agreement, that, I must admit, I've never
11 seen, but it came up in the conversations I had with Mr. Milosevic, and --
12 but it came up in a way that when I asked for something, when I demanded
13 something of him, he claimed that this was without the agreement he had
14 with Mr. Holbrooke. So -- and I could not verify that.
15 Q. I see.
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, remind me of this: We have the OSCE
17 agreement in evidence, do we?
18 MR. RYNEVELD: We do, yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could remind me sometime what the number
20 is.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
22 JUDGE MAY: I know we have the Milosevic-Holbrooke agreement.
23 That I remember. In October 1998.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: There is a document, and we'll find it in just a
25 moment, that's actually signed by Geremek and that's the document.
Page 7643
1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Judge Kwon kindly reminds me. It's tab
2 94. As I remembered, the Milosevic agreement is there.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe it's in the binder of materials
4 constituting Exhibit 94 that were introduced through General
5 Drewienkiewicz. I just don't know what tab number without reference.
6 JUDGE MAY: The answer is it's tab 2.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
8 JUDGE MAY: And the other agreement is tab 1.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Yes. I thought they would be fairly
10 early in the binder.
11 Q. Now, just a couple of quick questions, sir. We know that the OSCE
12 was made up of 54 member states, et cetera, et cetera. What function,
13 what particular issues or interests did the OSCE attempt to safeguard
14 during its -- during its mandate?
15 A. The OSCE was following up, so to say, of the so-called CSE, the
16 conference on Cooperation and Security in Europe, and that conference was
17 then made into an organisation, a permanent body, which was the OSCE.
18 The conference was based on the Helsinki treaty of 1975. It was
19 established during the Cold War as an organisation working with
20 disarmament, with the human rights, trying to pursue efforts for
21 democracy, minorities. So there was a whole range, actually, of - what
22 shall I say? - activities in order to seek a peaceful change from a
23 totalitarian system in then eastern and central Europe and into a
24 democratic system for the whole of Europe. And at the same time, as I
25 said, strongly involved in disarmament.
Page 7644
1 Q. In 1999, during your chairmanship of the OSCE, did you have any
2 discussions with Mr. Milosevic, among others, about the role that the OSCE
3 might play in the Kosovo conflict? And if so, what kind of reception did
4 you get from Mr. Milosevic?
5 A. You said 1999, during my year as chairman in office?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Yes. I had several meetings with him. As I recall it, I think I
8 had three meetings and I had some telephone conversations.
9 Since Kosovo was, as I saw it at that time, the main task of the
10 OSCE - we had a number of other tasks at the same time but the Kosovo
11 conflict had become such a hot issue, a very serious issue - I felt that I
12 had to concentrate a lot of my efforts as chairman in office of the OSCE
13 on precisely Kosovo. And for that reason, I decided to go to Belgrade
14 early, and I think my -- in my term as chairman. And I think my first
15 meeting with then President Milosevic was on the 11th of January in 1999,
16 when we then discussed the work that we were going to do, the various
17 activities that we were going to do.
18 At that time, if I again recall correctly, some Serbs had been
19 abducted or hijacked, kidnapped by Kosovo Albanians, so that became a very
20 important issue, trying to release those -- and that was maybe my main
21 task during that visit instead of preparing for the ordinary work that the
22 OSCE should be doing.
23 We had established what was called the Kosovo Verification
24 Mission. I understand that you have had witnesses earlier that dealt with
25 that. And my next meeting was 21st or something of January, and that was
Page 7645
1 to discuss the expulsion of Ambassador Walker. Ambassador Walker was the
2 head, as you well know, of the Kosovo Verification Mission, and President
3 Milosevic, and I suppose the government, whatever, had decided to declare
4 Ambassador Walker persona non grata. There was unacceptable to us. It
5 was, as I saw it, a violation of the agreement we had with the government,
6 and I had to try to stop the expulsion, and I -- he was not expelled.
7 And then my last meeting with Mr. Milosevic was on the 1st of
8 March, if I again recall correctly. At that time, the Rambouillet talks,
9 the talks had -- were under way. I think there was a period, a kind of a
10 lapse in the talks, and I went to Belgrade to see if we could try to
11 convince Mr. Milosevic and the government and to pursue the negotiations
12 as we wanted them to pursue.
13 Q. We'll get into some of those meetings that you've just outlined
14 for us with some more specificity. Maybe I should back you up just for a
15 moment.
16 Did you also have any meetings with Mr. Milosevic in 1998, prior
17 to taking on the role as chairman personally?
18 A. Yes, I did. I think the first meeting I had as Norwegian Foreign
19 Minister was in April of 1998, and at that time I knew that I was going to
20 be the chairman of OSCE for the next year so we discussed, obviously, that
21 role and that function and then we discussed the normal -- whatever
22 foreign ministers discuss with the heads of states, and specifically, of
23 course, the very serious situation in Kosovo and in the Balkans in
24 general.
25 Q. I should ask you, sir, what was Mr. Milosevic's view on the role
Page 7646
1 of the KVM? Was he initially eager to have them present?
2 A. My understanding was that he never liked KVM. I guess he was
3 against an international presence in Kosovo in general. And KVM was
4 supposed to be a larger group than -- you have had something earlier that
5 was called KDOM. I must admit that I'm not very certain about the mandate
6 of that group, but anyway, KVM was going -- it was not an armed group, it
7 was a civilian force, but it -- I think we aimed at having something like
8 2.000 people so it would be a more -- their presence would be more felt.
9 And it was my understanding that he was not very keen on that, but it was
10 accepted and the first meeting I had with him on the 11th of January, as I
11 said, he accepted the agreement, of course, that was signed between his
12 foreign minister and Foreign Minister Geremek.
13 Q. All right. Now, without getting into specifics of the meetings
14 that you have had - and we'll get back to those in a moment - I'm going to
15 ask you now to retrospectively look at the collective meetings you've had
16 with President Milosevic, as he then was, and can you tell the Court, if
17 you would, please, what impression you formed about his authority or lack
18 of it.
19 A. Well, Your Honours, I think Mr. Milosevic had a lot of authority.
20 He -- his presence was very much felt when he was present, and at least I
21 was left with the impression that he was a man in control and in command.
22 Q. And during some of these meetings, were any of his other senior
23 assistants or officials or ministers present?
24 A. Yes. In all meetings except for the meeting that you referred to
25 earlier in 1993, I cannot recall to have had any meetings with him alone.
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Page 7648
1 I had members of my staff with me, and he had, as I recall it, a number of
2 his officials, other political members, military leaders with him.
3 Q. When you met with Milosevic and his other senior ministers, were
4 you able to form any impression as to who ultimately made decisions? Did
5 the ministers make decisions or did Milosevic make decisions or could you
6 see who made decisions?
7 A. Again, Your Honours, this is, of course, based on impression. I
8 was never present in any of the internal discussions that the government
9 of Yugoslavia had, but in -- as I said, in all the meetings I had with him
10 together with other people, he was the one that mainly spoke. He was the
11 one that mainly drew conclusions. And in some of the meetings we had, for
12 instance, in Kosovo with -- I guess his name was Andjelkovic or something
13 like that, his representative in Kosovo, there was no doubt that
14 everything was referred back to Belgrade. I mean, there was nothing that
15 they could decide without having this confirmed. And when we spoke and
16 they spoke about Belgrade, I was, anyway, under the impression that we
17 talked about Mr. Milosevic.
18 Q. I see. Sir, you made reference a few moments ago to the first of
19 a series of meetings. Perhaps we can talk first about the meeting in
20 January of 1999. I believe the date you gave was the 11th of January.
21 Perhaps -- what -- I'm sorry. The subject matter of the meeting on the
22 11th of January, I believe you mentioned, referred to some VJ soldiers?
23 A. That's right. Well, it was supposed to be an ordinary meeting,
24 preparing for the work that we were going to do, but just before I
25 arrived, some -- some VJ soldiers had been abducted by Kosovo Albanians,
Page 7649
1 and this made an outcry in Belgrade and this was the issue that was
2 brought up. And we were asked, or maybe even more than asked, demanded to
3 see if we could release -- have them released. So we had a lot of
4 activities with reference to that, trying to get those released, which we
5 succeeded in having. So that became one of the main issues in addition to
6 more the ordinary discussion on how to deal with the role of KVM in
7 Kosovo.
8 Q. Do I understand you correctly to say that your organisation was
9 involved and successful in assisting in the prisoner exchange or the VJ
10 soldier exchange?
11 A. That is my belief, yes, that we did so.
12 Q. All right. Did you have subsequent conversations after the 15th
13 of January, after Racak, with Mr. Milosevic?
14 A. Yes. On -- when the Racak massacre happened, of course that was a
15 very serious incident which we took very seriously, and based on what Mr.
16 Milosevic found as the inappropriate reaction of Ambassador Walker, he or
17 the government decided to declare Ambassador Walker persona non grata and
18 wanted to expel him.
19 In that situation, I knew that the whole KVM mission would fall
20 apart. I mean, one could not expel the head of the mission without
21 looking at the whole mission. And for that reason, I had immediately a
22 telephone conversation with the Foreign Minister Jovanovic to discuss it
23 with him, asked for a meeting with President Milosevic, and I was -- I had
24 this meeting on the -- I think it was on the 21st of January, and the --
25 my objective was to have this decision undone or changed. It was
Page 7650
1 unacceptable, and I said it was a violation of the agreement we had. It
2 said in the agreement, if I recall correctly, it states quite clearly that
3 it is up to me, as chairman in office of the OSCE, to appoint or fire the
4 head of the KVM mission. This has nothing to do with the country in which
5 they are serving.
6 Q. Let me stop you there. And just so that we're clear, you had
7 appointed Ambassador Walker as the head of the KVM; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. Or it was Professor Geremek as chairman in office, but it
9 was the chairman in office of the OSCE who should appoint him according to
10 the agreement that was signed between Jovanovic and Geremek, and it was
11 also up to the chairman in office to tell the head of the KVM to step
12 down, if he so desired.
13 Q. So your view was that this was something that was in your mandate,
14 not -- not the mandate of the country that was being observed.
15 A. That is correct. And more so, I don't think it was only my view
16 but I think it said so in the agreement.
17 Q. Yes. All right. Was there a further discussion with the accused
18 about Mr. Walker?
19 A. Yes. We had a number of discussions, I would say, on Mr. Walker,
20 and Mr. Milosevic found -- I mean, he disliked his appearance, to my
21 understanding, a lot, and he found that his reaction after the Racak
22 massacre was inappropriate. His comments had been not in accordance with
23 his position, I think he said, and that was the reason then why he wanted
24 him expelled. And he offered, if I recall correctly, offered to have a
25 Norwegian as the head of the KVM. He asked me, "Why couldn't we have a
Page 7651
1 Norwegian as the head of the KVM?" And I said this was not up to him to
2 select the head of the KVM.
3 So we had a long discussion that day, or even into the early
4 night, I would say, about KVM and Ambassador Walker.
5 Q. Ambassador Vollebaek, I'm going to wait between your questions and
6 -- or your answers to my questions because of translation. Because we
7 both speak the same language, I'm afraid that we haven't been allowing for
8 the translators, so I'll pause.
9 A. Sorry. I'll try to behave.
10 Q. No. It's my fault.
11 Now, did you ultimately resolve this apparent conflict concerning
12 Ambassador Walker?
13 A. Yes. We solved it in the sense that it was decided, according to
14 Mr. Milosevic, by the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to
15 freeze the expulsion. We had a long discussion on different phraseology
16 and conditions, and I could not accept any conditions because there were
17 no -- as I saw it, there were no conditions that were -- he was not
18 entitled to impose any conditions. And at the end of the conversation, he
19 proposed or accepted that there should be a freeze of the expulsion,
20 unconditional freeze, and that was then put forward, as I understood it,
21 to the government of FRY. And I, of course, also had to consult with the
22 members, the troika members of the OSCE and also with the Contact Group
23 members if this was acceptable to them. And it was acceptable to my side,
24 and I was later then called back to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in
25 Belgrade, and the foreign minister told me that the government had
Page 7652
1 accepted that this -- this freezing of the expulsion should take place.
2 Q. The result of that was Ambassador --
3 A. That Ambassador Walker could continue as head of KVM until the
4 withdrawal.
5 Q. During the course of these negotiations, was there any discussion
6 about forensic -- independent forensic examinations of the bodies found at
7 Racak?
8 A. Yes. This was an issue that I think primarily was raised by the
9 KVM itself because they had the mandate and the duty to look into these
10 incidents that happened on the ground.
11 As I recall it, Mr. Milosevic refused. I think they had some
12 local Serb forensic expert to look into it first. Then, in order to make
13 this kind of international, he asked, if I recall correctly, a group from
14 Belarus, but we insisted that there should be someone from the OSCE side
15 accepted that we had chosen.
16 We had a long discussion on this, and -- but the end was that
17 there was a Finnish group, headed by, if I remember correctly, Dr. Ranta,
18 that was allowed in. But again, if my memory doesn't fail me, they came
19 in almost a week after the massacre happened. So they came in quite late
20 and they complained about that. They said that of course the bodies had
21 been moved, things had happened. So they were criticising that they had
22 not been able to come earlier.
23 Q. But the result of the negotiation was that the Finnish team was
24 also permitted to come in and participate in this forensic examination
25 although they complained it was much too late.
Page 7653
1 A. That's right, but they did come in and they did make a report.
2 Q. All right. I just want to back up and just ask a question that
3 I'd forgotten to put to you earlier, sir. You referred earlier to a
4 meeting with someone, and I believe you mentioned the word "Andjelkovic."
5 Is that Zoran Andjelkovic?
6 A. Yes. My memory may fail me, but as -- I cannot confirm his first
7 name, but as I recall, he was the local representative of the federal
8 government or the government of Belgrade in Pristina. So he was my main
9 interlocutor, a kind of host, when I visited Pristina. And I had meetings
10 with him, some with him in his capacity as representative but also then as
11 head of the council that they had with representatives of various -- kind
12 of an elected body. So he -- as I understood him, he was then appointed
13 by Belgrade as a caretaker governor, whatever, of Kosovo.
14 Q. Is this the gentleman you said that from time to time would say
15 that he'd have to check with Belgrade?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And by that, you understood him to mean Milosevic?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. Now --
20 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm at paragraph 12, Your Honours.
21 Q. During your meetings with the accused, you said apart from that
22 one meeting, I believe in 1993, he always had other people with him?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. And including some of the people you've already mentioned, were
25 there any military personnel, generals or anything like that, in his
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Page 7655
1 company during your meetings?
2 A. Yes. As I recall it, I think there were generals or military
3 personnel in all the meetings. Well, I stated I had three meetings with
4 him before -- in 1999 before the military activities of the Kosovo
5 conflict, the bombing started, and as I recall it, there were military
6 personnel present in all these three meetings, yes.
7 Q. And you've told us earlier that it appeared that it was the
8 accused that made decisions, or at least that was your impression of it.
9 Did that also include discussions concerning matters where the military
10 were present?
11 A. Certainly, yes.
12 Q. Did those discussions sometimes involve military matters?
13 A. Yes, they did, to the extent that we were talking about the
14 presence, the military presence, in Kosovo. We were talking about what we
15 saw as attacks or -- what should I say -- activities against the KVM by
16 the military that we said was unacceptable to us. So -- and there were
17 also then activities along the borderline with Macedonia. So there were
18 several issues without me actually remembering each concrete issue, but
19 military issues and activities were discussed.
20 Q. Do you know Milan Milutinovic?
21 A. I cannot say I know him, but I met him in the presence of
22 Mr. Milosevic.
23 Q. Was he present at some or all of these meetings?
24 A. My impression is that he was present at all, but I may be wrong.
25 But he was present at some of the meetings, yes.
Page 7656
1 Q. And what did you understand his role to be when you met him? What
2 was his title?
3 A. Well, at that time, he was President of the Serb Republic.
4 Q. Now, in your meetings, you discussed, I take it, the international
5 observer role in Kosovo; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, because the main task of the OSCE at that time was the KVM,
7 the Kosovo Verification Mission. We demanded, according to the agreement
8 we had with the government of Yugoslavia, was then to seek a peaceful
9 settlement, to ask or to try to make possible the return of the number of
10 refugees that had left Kosovo. So these -- how to facilitate that return,
11 how to seek or how to start, maybe, negotiations between the government of
12 Belgrade and representatives of the Kosovo Albanian population was, of
13 course, the main task for me and the main topic that we had during our
14 conversations.
15 Q. During the course of your negotiations or discussions, was an
16 international military presence one of the topics at any stage?
17 A. Yes. At least in the conversation we had on the 1st of March.
18 Because since we saw that the situation did not improve, it, rather,
19 deteriorated in Kosovo, as I mentioned, KVM was an observer group without
20 any military force and we saw that we could not fulfil the mandate that we
21 had, the only way that we thought that we could pursue our activities was
22 with a military presence. And this was also discussed during the
23 Rambouillet talks and was a part of the Rambouillet proposal. And so I
24 brought up and pressed for Mr. Milosevic's acceptance of a military
25 presence.
Page 7657
1 Q. How was that suggestion received?
2 A. Not very favourably. He was very upset for many reasons. He
3 stated clearly that Kosovo was an integral part of Serbia, as he said,
4 that -- I mean, it was unheard-of that you had international troops,
5 military forces on the soil of a sovereign state. In addition to that,
6 since Yugoslavia was suspended from the OSCE, he -- he saw no reason why
7 OSCE should impose anything like this on him. And he compared, actually,
8 this military presence to the -- to the Soviet invasion of Prague because
9 he said that -- well, he -- as I said, he was rather upset, and he said
10 that he would not accept my proposal. And he said that Yugoslavia had
11 stood up against Stalin, and they had stood up against Breschnev, and they
12 should also stand up against Mr. Vollebaek. So he -- I had a nice
13 comparison there. And I tried to tell him that this wasn't by invitation.
14 I mean, he was still then the president, and it would be under -- I mean,
15 upon invitation. It was nothing compared to either what Stalin did or
16 what the Soviet Union did in Prague in 1968, but that was how he felt it.
17 Q. I'd ask you if you would explain for the Court, please, what you
18 meant earlier when you indicated that one of the reasons that you
19 discussed an international military presence was because the OSCE was
20 unable to fulfil its mandate. What did you mean by that? What problems
21 did you have as civilians?
22 A. Well, as -- as I said, I visited Kosovo three times before the war
23 broke out, and I saw, I think specifically my second visit, I saw that
24 there was a great trust in KVM from the population in Kosovo. They had
25 seen improvement in their situation, much more security. Some villagers
Page 7658
1 had returned to their villages. I visited, myself, both posts manned by
2 Yugoslav military personnel and KLA personnel and saw that we had a
3 mediating role, we had a role of a buffer, and there was a rather
4 optimistic atmosphere, I would say. This was then in late January of
5 1999. And the morale among the KVM observers, monitors, was also quite
6 high because they felt they had a role to play.
7 Then when I came back in early March, that situation was totally
8 changed because there had been a number of incidents. There had been an
9 increased military -- Yugoslav military presence, in violation of the
10 agreement that we had. People had started fleeing again or leaving their
11 homes. You had attacks on members of the KVM. And the local population
12 felt that we didn't do anything for them. I mean, they had lost a lot of
13 confidence in us. And all this resulted in the fact that we could not do
14 what we were supposed to do; starting negotiations, facilitating return of
15 refugees to the country. I mean, new people were leaving.
16 And it became quite clear to me that in order for us to do what we
17 were supposed to do also with respect to democracy building, with respect
18 to the free press, with respect to a number of the activities that we were
19 supposed to do, this could not be done without the military presence that
20 could actually hold the military factions apart from each other. Because
21 you had, as is well known, the KLA, which also had military activities,
22 and with the Yugoslav military activities, the local population was caught
23 in between, and that was impossible for us to do anything or to avoid this
24 because we had -- we were unarmed.
25 Q. I see. Now, during the course of your discussions, did you hear
Page 7659
1 the accused indicate to you about the potential for ethnic makeup of
2 Kosovo, what groups might be able to reside in Kosovo?
3 A. Yes. He always talked about a multi-ethnic Kosovo, and I guess he
4 charged me and us with being too pro-Albanian and not taking into
5 consideration the Serb population, the Roma population, the various other
6 groups that you had in Kosovo. And he -- so he was very strongly
7 committed then to, as he said, to a multi-ethnic Kosovo. I told him that
8 we also were concerned with the other groups.
9 I had a number of meetings with representatives of the Serb
10 opposition, for instance, representatives of the Serb groups in Kosovo,
11 and we were discussing their situation. And I gave clear instructions to
12 KVM also to look into whatever incidents where the Serb population and the
13 Roma people were under attack from the Kosovo Albanian side.
14 Q. In discussions about these ethnic groups, were there any
15 conditions attached to their residents in Kosovo in terms of majority of
16 individuals and respecting decisions of the majority?
17 A. Could you elaborate a little bit more on that question, sir?
18 Q. I'll rephrase. I'll rephrase. Did you find out from the accused
19 who he deemed to be the majority ethnic group in Kosovo?
20 A. Well, I -- I'm not certain that we actually, to my recollection,
21 actually discussed what was the majority as such. He felt very strongly
22 that the Albanians would have to comply with the -- with the Serb rule, so
23 to say, because that was, of course, as he saw it, Kosovo was a part of
24 Serbia, Kosovo was an integral part of Serbia.
25 Q. Yes.
Page 7660
1 A. And he refused -- well, I would not say refused, but he did not
2 want to discuss a great deal autonomy. We were playing with a number of
3 models where Kosovo could have a greater deal of autonomy and referring to
4 earlier constitutions and things like that. But he was very adamant that
5 since Kosovo was an integral part of Serbia, the -- in spite of the fact
6 that at some stage he would accept the Albanian language maybe and some
7 cultural identifications, this was a part of Serbia and as such they would
8 have to accept the Serb overall rule, so to say.
9 Q. I see. All right. During the course of your discussions, did you
10 raise with the accused the alleged atrocities that you had heard about
11 from your observers, and did you discuss those with Mr. Milosevic?
12 A. Certainly. This was, of course, issues that we brought up every
13 time, and not least when we had the meeting on the 21st of January. The
14 Racak massacre was a very prominent item, precisely because -- well, it
15 had happened, and the OSCE had made a quite strong statement, I think it
16 was on the 16th of January, condemning the massacre, and we asked for an
17 investigation, and also then since the consequence of this was the attempt
18 to expel Ambassador Walker, this Racak massacre was very much an issue.
19 Q. Sir, I don't want to spend valuable court time revisiting a number
20 of documents that have already been entered in in tab 94, but are you
21 aware whether or not the OSCE would provide daily reports about their
22 observations and reports about incidents that they had witnessed or their
23 members had witnessed?
24 A. Certainly. They made -- I would think they made daily reports.
25 At least, they made reports, I think they were on a daily basis, that were
Page 7661
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Page 7662
1 sent back to Vienna, to the OSCE headquarters, about whatever happened,
2 and also about the Racak massacre.
3 Q. Your Honours, we -- we started at 9.30. I'll continue. I thought
4 we were coming up to the break.
5 You referred, sir, to three meetings earlier in yourself, on the
6 11th of January, the 21st of January, and the 1st of March. You've
7 discussed those. I'm going to take you now to the 24th of March.
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Did you have a telephone conversation with the accused on that
10 date?
11 A. Yes, I did. At that time, the Paris talks, as I think they were
12 called at that time, had broken up, and it became more and more evident
13 that we were heading towards an armed conflict. And I felt very strongly,
14 as the chairman of the OSCE, that it was in my -- it was my duty to try to
15 do whatever I could to avoid an armed conflict. And I had a conversation
16 with Secretary-General Solana, who was at that time Secretary-General of
17 NATO, and I said to him that I would like to try one more time if I could
18 convince Mr. Milosevic to go along with some talks and allow a military
19 presence and so that we could see if we could avoid the military conflict
20 that we understood was coming.
21 I did not know -- as you will recall as happened, the bombing
22 started that evening. I did not know at that time, but I knew that it was
23 growing near. And I made a telephone conversation to him, to
24 Mr. Milosevic around early -- or late morning/early afternoon, if I recall
25 correctly, and tried to explain to him the serious situation, and also
Page 7663
1 told him that I was available if I could do something. Of course, he
2 disagreed with my view, he disagreed with my proposal. I explained to him
3 that the situation had deteriorated to such an extent that it was
4 difficult for us to see any solution.
5 As you may know, the KVM had withdrawn earlier, just some days
6 earlier, again as a result of the breakdown of the negotiations and the
7 security situation that became increasingly deteriorating for the KVM
8 monitors and also the lack of possibility of fulfilling the mandate, as I
9 mentioned earlier. And we saw then a build-up of military personnel in
10 Kosovo after this. There had been an exodus of refugees. A number of
11 refugees had left, there was pressure on the border towards Macedonia and
12 Albania, and we had reports from UNHCR and ICRC after the -- that KVM had
13 left about the situation that was deteriorating.
14 Q. So you called him.
15 A. I called.
16 Q. And perhaps you could outline for us to the best of your
17 recollection the points that you discussed with Mr. Milosevic on that
18 occasion. You've told us that -- did you tell him about seeing the
19 build-up of troops, et cetera?
20 A. That's right. I had seen this when I was there in March, on the
21 1st of March. It was -- as I said, it was a different atmosphere on the
22 1st of March compared to my visit in late January. And I had then seen
23 people leaving with their belongings, and those members of KVM with whom I
24 was travelling, they were quite concerned because they said that this was
25 a new situation, they hadn't seen this lately, so they were very concerned
Page 7664
1 about this.
2 We had -- the military presence was very prevalent, and clearly a
3 build-up compared to what I had seen earlier. We saw also fire. I could
4 not detect exactly what that fire was, but later on that was confirmed by,
5 among others, ICRC and I think also UNHCR, but anyway ICRC and the KVM,
6 for that matter in March before they withdrew, that houses were being set
7 ablaze.
8 Q. All right. Perhaps I can take some of these points one at a time.
9 In relation to the build-up of military forces, et cetera, did you
10 complain about that?
11 A. Yes, I did. I said that this was in violation of the agreement.
12 To that, Mr. Milosevic said that they were there to protect me, which I
13 didn't think was necessary, to say it mildly.
14 Q. You mention, sir, that the reports were that people were fleeing
15 with their belongings. Did you also get reports about whether they were
16 congregating once they fled?
17 A. Yes. We were in touch, of course, with the -- well, both KVM were
18 following them and seeing what happened to them, but also we were in touch
19 with the government of Macedonia. It was very concerned with the
20 situation because a number of people came into Macedonia. The same
21 happened in Albania but maybe the problem was even greater on the border
22 with Macedonia. But again, when I confronted Mr. Milosevic with that, he
23 said that they were just picnicking, so I shouldn't be concerned. They
24 were just on a trip, having picnic. I think I said that it was strange to
25 have a picnic with all your belongings on a tractor trailer, but that was
Page 7665
1 the answer I got.
2 And the same with the burning houses, actually. He told me that
3 it was nonsense that there were any houses burning. They were only straw
4 that KLA or the Kosovo Albanians put the fire to -- put fire to in order
5 to pretend that houses were burning.
6 I said that I had seen some of this myself and I had credible
7 reports from international observers that this was happening, and I said
8 that in response to his statement that I was watching too much CNN,
9 because he said that I was fooled by CNN. And I then said that I had seen
10 this myself on some occasion, or one occasion, and then I had also had
11 reports about the same events or incidents.
12 Q. Did you comment on the way these people were being handled and
13 what -- did you give any advice to the accused as to what he ought to do?
14 A. Certainly. I -- I told him, as I said, that we had -- he should
15 return to the negotiating table, he should allow military presence in
16 order for us to keep the military groups apart so that the refugees could
17 return, and he had to stop violating the agreement we had and to stop
18 harassing people. So -- but according to him then, nothing wrong was
19 happening, so it was difficult to give him advice because there was -- I
20 mean, according to him, I was wrong and there was no reason for him or his
21 government to change the activities or the behaviour with respect to
22 Kosovo.
23 Q. Did you hold out any hope for further negotiation?
24 A. If he complied with my requests, yes. If we could have a military
25 presence, if he was willing to open up again for talks, I said that since
Page 7666
1 I had spoken earlier to Secretary-General Solana, I knew that we could
2 stop the NATO activities, and I knew also that I had the full support of
3 the OSCE troika and the Contact Group in this. But -- but he kind of
4 discarded me completely. He put me off and said that I was wrong. So I
5 had -- the only thing I could say at the end of the conversation was that
6 I was sorry that his vision of the world or the conflict was very
7 different from mine and that there was nothing I could do at that stage
8 but that I was there, I was available, so he could call me any time if he
9 changed his mind, which he didn't do.
10 Q. Did he indicate to you any interest in continued discussions?
11 A. No, none whatsoever.
12 Q. I'll back up to something that you referred sort of in passing to
13 in order to explain a previous conversation. You mentioned that --
14 something to the effect of, "As you know, we withdrew the KVM on an
15 earlier date." Can you tell us approximately when that was and why that
16 was?
17 A. It happened between the 19th and the 20th, if I recall correctly,
18 of March. I think it started -- the decision was taken on the 19th of
19 March and I think it started early morning of the 20th of March.
20 As I said, the situation for KVM had deteriorated very much. We
21 felt that there was a threat to the security of the monitors, and at the
22 same time, they could not fulfil their tasks and their mandate.
23 I had been under some pressure for some time to withdraw KVM,
24 partly, I think, because of the threatened security for the various
25 monitors, that some countries felt that their citizens were not protected
Page 7667
1 well enough and this became political issues in some of the countries, as
2 I understood it. And also that the mandate was not fulfilled. People
3 started asking, "Why are you there?"
4 We had very much Srebrenica in mind, and I think we felt very
5 strongly that we could not be in a position where we repeated a situation
6 where you had an international presence standing by, idly watching
7 atrocities happening. This was very much in our mind when we were
8 discussing and seeing what we could do in Kosovo.
9 At the same time, I also thought that the situation for the
10 civilians would deteriorate if we withdrew. I wanted them to be there as
11 long as possible, that I could in any way defend having them there,
12 because still I thought and hoped that they could do something. And as
13 long as the negotiations in Paris went on, I thought that there still was
14 hope that we could change the attitude of Mr. Milosevic, his government,
15 and might have then an agreement on which we could base our activities.
16 So I would not -- I wouldn't like to withdraw before I really had to.
17 But when the negotiations in Paris broke down and the -- we had
18 some incidents that involved KVM people, that they were attacked by Serb
19 military groups or Serb paramilitary groups maybe, but anyway, they were
20 under -- we had reports that they were attacked or harassed might be the
21 right English word, and I knew, after having been to Kosovo myself, that
22 the trust of KVM was in danger because we could not fulfil the mandate.
23 Then after then consultation with the troika members of the OSCE, and I
24 think I consulted with all the members of the Contact Group, at least some
25 of the major members of the Contact Group, I decided to pull out. It was
Page 7668
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Page 7669
1 also on advice of Ambassador Walker, who was head, as you know, of the
2 KVM. And we had had this discussion before. Ambassador Walker might have
3 wanted to withdraw even a little bit earlier, but when he then stated very
4 clearly that he could not guarantee the security of the members of the
5 monitoring group any longer, I could not, sitting in Oslo, take the
6 responsibility of keeping people in place. So that was the reason why we
7 decided that they should withdraw, and the withdrawal then took place on
8 the 20th of March.
9 Q. Now, sir, immediately after the KVM withdrawal on the 19th, 20th
10 of March, 1999, did you personally witness large movements of refugees out
11 of Kosovo?
12 A. That was a little bit later. This was after the bombing had
13 started. I do not recall the dates, but it must have been early April or
14 -- yes, after the bombing had started. I visited Albania and Macedonia,
15 and we had set up -- the OSCE was then in Macedonia, and we provided the
16 UNHCR and some of the other organisations with material, cars to help them
17 handling the refugees. And I visited a couple of refugee camps and had
18 discussions with the Macedonian government on the handling of refugees in
19 Macedonia.
20 In Albania, I was standing at the border crossing when the
21 refugees came, and I must admit, Your Honours, that I have never seen so
22 many tractors in my whole life as I saw that morning. There were an
23 endless line of tractors with whole families on them. And it was, I
24 think, one of the most moving movements in my life when you stand at the
25 border crossing and meet people that have been fleeing for -- well, some
Page 7670
1 for hours because they didn't come that far away but some for some days,
2 and telling stories about how they -- well, of how they had to flee
3 because their house had been taken over by people that came to their
4 apartments or houses and said that they should -- they should leave, or
5 they came back from -- some people said they came back from their evening
6 stroll and their house was occupied. And others then had been more
7 evicted from their houses forcibly, but there were all kinds of very
8 strong stories. I don't speak Serbian, I don't speak Albanian, but I had
9 interpreters who told me this.
10 And then seeing also the situation with the help that was given.
11 The system of assistance was very important. And one of the things that
12 we did was to take down the names and addresses. We had -- we were the
13 third checkpoint, so to say. The first was a bottle of water, the second
14 was a piece of bread, and the third was to take down the names and
15 addresses. Because one of the last things, apparently, that the Serb
16 authorities did before they left Kosovo was to take away all their pieces
17 of identity, even the number, the licence plates on the tractors were cut
18 or clipped off or -- so that they should have no evidence of where they
19 belonged. And so we saw it as our main task to make sure that we knew
20 where these people were, where did they come from, so that they could tell
21 that immediately and we could take that down.
22 And I was, I will admit, being then, in addition to being chairman
23 of the OSCE, I was also foreign minister of a NATO country, as you recall,
24 Your Honours, NATO was responsible for the bombing, of course, and I was
25 somewhat nervous that these people would charge me with being at least one
Page 7671
1 of the culprits. And none of them said anything about -- blamed NATO for
2 the bombing of the country. And they said they did not flee because of
3 the bombs - that was not a problem for them - but fled because their
4 houses were taken over by Serbs, military or non-military groups, and that
5 they had been told to leave, and they were forced to leave. So there was
6 absolutely no complaining.
7 And I think personally that, in spite of the fact that we had, of
8 course, a number of discussions about the withdrawal of KVM when we did
9 withdraw, the fact that we did not stand idly by and watch atrocities
10 happening made the population trust us so that we could move in very soon
11 after the conflict, after the war. And I visited also Kosovo after the
12 war and met with people that cheered and greeted us, both as a member of
13 NATO but also then as chairman of the OSCE because we had taken such a
14 very clear stand on the atrocities that we saw coming.
15 Q. One further question about your visit. Did you later return to
16 Kosovo and notice what had happened to various houses or villages or --
17 are you able to give the Court a firsthand -- what you saw firsthand about
18 what had happened to the Albanian villages?
19 A. Yes, I did. I think I visited Kosovo twice after the war, and we
20 were very concerned with the situation at that time also for the Serb
21 minority. So during my first visit, I had a meeting with Patriarch Pavle
22 in Pec, which was the head of the Serbian Orthodox church, and I had also
23 decided that I would like to go to Decani, which is a very famous Orthodox
24 monastery, and stay over night as a kind of symbol of solidarity with
25 whoever was citizen of Kosovo, and I did that.
Page 7672
1 On the way to Decani -- well, in several places you saw the
2 results, but on the way to Decani, I still remember that there was a whole
3 village where all the roofs were off, and it was obvious that this was not
4 due to bombing but it was fire or -- I'm not an expert on explosives but
5 it was obvious that this came from the ground and not from the air because
6 the interior of the house was being burned off or destroyed. And all the
7 evidence that I received was that this had happened to Kosovo Albanian
8 houses by Serbs, military or paramilitary or whatever, during that period.
9 I also visited with one of the Orthodox bishops a mass grave where
10 there were about, if I recall correctly, 18 bodies. This -- that grave
11 had not been opened yet, so -- but there was one lady that came and
12 thought that her relatives were buried there, and we had -- she was
13 looking then for identification, and there was a process of opening that
14 grave, and we had a discussion with the bishop about the responsibility of
15 the Serbs and how we could now bridge gaps and ask for forgiveness and
16 things that become important in a process of reconciliation.
17 Q. I want to move to a totally different topic now, if I may,
18 Ambassador, if you've had an opportunity to fully answer the questions
19 earlier.
20 During the course of your chairmanship, did you have meetings with
21 people other than the accused? Did you meet, for example, with leaders of
22 the Kosovar Albanians or the KLA or did you participate in any liaison
23 meetings between the accused and some of these representatives?
24 A. In my period there was no meeting between Mr. Milosevic and Kosovo
25 Albanians that I was present in, but I had a number of meetings with
Page 7673
1 Kosovo Albanian leaders. I met with Mr. Rugova who was then one of the
2 more prominent leaders already at that time of the Kosovo Albanian
3 community. I met with him on several occasions. I -- I met also with a
4 number of others. I must admit, Your Honours, that I do not recall all
5 the names. I met with Mr. Sosa in Albania, and I met with what I guess we
6 thought was the head of the KLA, Mr. Hashim Thaci, but that was in Oslo in
7 June, I think it must have been, so it was after the war had started. June
8 of 1999.
9 Q. June of 1999.
10 A. Yes. I met with him when we were talking about what should happen
11 after the war and how also KLA would have to participate in a peaceful
12 settlement.
13 Q. So this would be after the conflict --
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. -- had been completed. Yes.
16 A. As I recall, I had no meeting with the KLA before 24th of March,
17 1999. We thought that some of the political leaders we met with had links
18 to KLA, but they were not, as I knew then, in any way formal members or
19 representatives of KLA.
20 Q. Did you liaise in any way between Mr. Rugova, who you mentioned,
21 and the accused on other issues at any time or was there a meeting or did
22 you sort of hold independent meetings with each to liaise on topics or --
23 A. It was independent meetings. As I said, there was no meeting
24 where they were both present.
25 Q. I see.
Page 7674
1 A. But I -- since our mandate then was to try to find a peaceful
2 settlement, we were preoccupied with or had to look into the situation of
3 the Kosovo Albanian population in Kosovo. And I was discussing with
4 Mr. Rugova what would be his conditions, what would be his desires, what
5 would be the objectives that they wanted fulfilled in order to be able to
6 live within the borders of Yugoslavia under the Yugoslav authority in a
7 peaceful way, and these demands or requests I presented to Mr. Milosevic
8 and vice versa his replies I also did refer to when I spoke to Mr. Rugova.
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I just want to deal with 21, 22, and
11 23 in an encapsulated form.
12 Q. Sir, during your dealings with the accused in these proceedings
13 and your discussions of the Kosovo conflict in the dealings with respect
14 to the Albanians, did you form any impressions about the accused's
15 position in regard to what was most significant to him in these
16 negotiations?
17 A. Well, I -- I think Kosovo, to him, was very important because he
18 looked upon it, and he may still look upon it, as the cradle of the Serb
19 culture. There was very little willingness to discuss any kind of
20 autonomy or any kind of -- to go further on any kind of possibility of
21 some kind of self-determination for the Kosovo Albanian people.
22 I did not want, at that time, any new borders in Europe, but I
23 said as chairman in office of the OSCE, I agreed and it was very important
24 for me to say that we should not draw any new borders and I did not want
25 an independent Kosovo. But it was obvious to me that the Kosovo Albanian
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Page 7676
1 population had to be given much more autonomy when it came to language,
2 culture, et cetera. And this was very difficult for Mr. Milosevic, as I
3 understood, because he felt that that would open up for a secession of
4 Kosovo, and that was totally unacceptable for him. He was very adamant
5 that Kosovo had to be a part of Serbia since that was the cradle of Serb
6 culture and language.
7 Q. All right. Now, did you form any impression, quite apart from the
8 one you've just mentioned, about any personal motivation?
9 A. Well, I think that this is part of what I also maybe felt in 1993
10 when I met with Mr. Milosevic at that time, that it is a question of
11 power, but in addition to, as I said, the Kosovo situation, which I think
12 he felt was different from Bosnia and Croatia because of the sentimental
13 feelings attached to Kosovo, I personally saw much of his behaviour as
14 part of his desire for personal power and that he needed a power basis,
15 and he -- that was -- that was part of his -- well, it was -- what shall I
16 say? The reason for his behaviour but also maybe his -- he needed this
17 for his personal power.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: I note the time. I believe those are my questions
19 in chief. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now for half an hour.
21 Ambassador, I must give you the standard warning we have to give to all
22 witnesses: Don't speak to anybody, please, about your evidence until it's
23 over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. Would
24 you be back, please, at half past.
25 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
Page 7677
1 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you tell me how much time I'm
4 going to have, Mr. May, so I'm not surprised by a subsequent decision of
5 yours?
6 JUDGE MAY: We will consult.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE MAY: Two hours.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That seems to me to be too little,
10 but in view of your practice hitherto, this is nothing new to me.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vollebaek, do you consider, in view of the
13 decision to withdraw the Verification Mission which you yourself took,
14 that you are one of the few people who bear the burden of personal
15 responsibility for the beginning of the war against Yugoslavia?
16 A. No, Mr. Milosevic, I do not consider that. As I have told you --
17 and with Your Honours' agreement, I would like to address Mr. Milosevic
18 directly. Because as I told you, Mr. Milosevic, on numerous occasions,
19 that you are responsible. I did that on the 24th of March but I also did
20 it on the 1st of March when we met. You knew what was coming in view of
21 what we had told you. I was in a position that I, for some time, saw the
22 Kosovo Verification Mission having a role, because I saw that it improved
23 the conditions of the population in Kosovo. Then I saw that you had an
24 escalation of military power in Kosovo, which meant that we were faced
25 with a number of incidents, atrocities, that we could not hinder, avoid.
Page 7678
1 And we also had a security risk for our monitors. And in view of that, I
2 had to make the decision to withdraw. But I resisted as long as I could
3 because I first wanted to see if we could avoid a conflict, and also to
4 give you, Mr. Milosevic, a chance to change your mind and cooperate with
5 us.
6 Q. All right. Let's remain within the realm of questions. So do you
7 in fact consider, as it is not in dispute that you yourself personally
8 took the decision, at least in formal sense, do you consider that that
9 decision of yours in fact in the moral and ethical sense is the most
10 weighty because, as you said, you took the personal decision as being the
11 co-chairman for the international conference of the former Yugoslavia and
12 cooperation, the purpose of which was peace. Yes or no.
13 A. Your Honours, I'm not sure I understand the question.
14 JUDGE MAY: The witness has dealt with that, I think. Unless
15 there's a new point. If so, perhaps you'd tell us what it is.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the point is that
17 individually, in view of his position as chairman of the Organisation for
18 European Security and Cooperation, that is to say an organisation the
19 purpose of which is European security precisely, which means peace, that
20 in the moral and ethical sense this personal decision is the most
21 difficult. Isn't that so?
22 JUDGE MAY: Was it a difficult decision?
23 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, yes, it was a very difficult decision.
24 It was one of the most difficult decisions I made. But I -- if this
25 implies that I am in any way responsible for the war in Kosovo, I would
Page 7679
1 flatly reject it, Mr. Milosevic, because as, Your Honours, I've told you
2 earlier, we could not perform and fulfil the mandate we were given because
3 Mr. Milosevic's army and paramilitary troops, whatever, did not fulfil
4 their side of the obligation. They had their side of the agreement and
5 were roaming around, making atrocities that we could not stop. And we
6 could not be watching this.
7 So as I see it, the conflict would have -- there was a conflict
8 already. The withdrawal did not start the war. The war was there already
9 when I decided to withdraw.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. All right. But I hope you were conscious of the fact that that
12 decision would enable the greatest military machinery that the world has
13 known thus far would be deployed and used against a small country which in
14 nurtured good neighbourly relations with all states surrounding it and
15 which did not jeopardise or threaten any of those countries. Is that
16 correct or not?
17 A. Your Honours, I think the accused is making statements more than
18 asking questions, but that is nothing new. We have had these type of
19 conversations before, Mr. Milosevic and I. And I think that this is -- it
20 is my view that this is not correct.
21 You will remember, Mr. Milosevic, that the Security Council had
22 passed two Security Council Resolutions, 1160 and 1199. They had been
23 referenced to what is called the Chapter VII language of the UN treaty.
24 And you will know that there had been precedent statements in the Security
25 Council precisely dealing with the risk of regional conflict. It is
Page 7680
1 positively wrong when you say that your attitude, your actions, your
2 behaviour did not threaten the regional stability. We saw that with
3 respect to Macedonia, we saw it with respect to Albania, and we had seen
4 it earlier with respect to the other states in the former Yugoslavia.
5 This had been repeated on and on again.
6 And even though I agree with you that what happened in Kosovo was
7 an internal matter to the sense -- in the sense that what happened inside
8 the borders was an internal matter, it was still a breach of any kind of
9 human rights agreements and, in addition, the OSCE agreement that was the
10 formal basis for the KVM and my responsibility.
11 Q. And are you saying, in fact, that Yugoslavia jeopardised Macedonia
12 or Albanian perhaps?
13 A. I am saying that a long time before the 24th of March there were
14 refugees leaving Kosovo in order to avoid the atrocities that were
15 committed by you.
16 Q. Tell me, did Yugoslavia jeopardise any neighbouring country when
17 you took the decision to withdraw the mission and to enable NATO to
18 unleash the war against Yugoslavia?
19 JUDGE MAY: The witness hadn't said that that happened at all.
20 That wasn't the reason, as you heard.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. All right. Tell me this, then, sir, Mr. Vollebaek: As a
24 Norwegian originating from a country of the Vikings, valiant warriors,
25 does it seem to be a form of warrior behaviour that a force such as NATO
Page 7681
1 should attack a country with 11 million inhabitants?
2 JUDGE MAY: This is a matter of comment, not a proper question.
3 Ask your next question.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. And do you consider that by withdrawing the mission upon orders
7 from NATO, you in fact --
8 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. That contains an assertion which the
9 witness should deal with.
10 Was the mission withdrawn on the orders of NATO?
11 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, the answer to that question is no. It
12 was -- well, first of all, it was my formal decision. As chairman in
13 office, I had to take the formal decision. It was taken upon an advice
14 by Ambassador Walker, who was the responsible head of the mission, and he
15 told me that he could not any longer take responsibility for the security
16 and safety of the monitors, which I had to take very seriously.
17 Secondly, it was taken in consultation with the other members of
18 the troika of the OSCE, meaning that -- well, Poland was one, and I guess
19 Romania was the other. And in addition to that, in contacts with the
20 members of the Contact Group. But the decision was mine, and there was
21 absolutely no imposition by NATO.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. All right. You claim that you did not withdraw the mission
24 following orders from NATO to enable the bombing to take place, and now to
25 that you add that NATO didn't even exert any pressure upon you or
Page 7682
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Page 7683
1 influence you in any way and that you didn't consult NATO at all with
2 respect to the withdrawal of the mission.
3 A. Your Honours, as I told when the Prosecutor was asking me, I
4 consulted the secretary-general of NATO with respect to if I should try
5 another time to avoid a military conflict. But that was on the 24th of
6 March, after the withdrawal. But the reason for the withdrawal, as I have
7 stated several times, Your Honours, was that we could not fulfil the
8 mission, and we could not have a situation as we had had in Srebrenica
9 where the international community was standing idle, watching atrocities
10 happening. And we saw atrocities happening, and we saw a building up of
11 military force, and that was the situation I was faced with. And this,
12 Your Honours, as I understand this, is the fault of Mr. Milosevic. He was
13 in breach with the agreement. He was told that, and he did not want to
14 comply with the agreement. So in my understanding, he must be responsible
15 for the withdrawal and not anyone else.
16 Q. All right. Very well. That means that you did not withdraw the
17 mission upon NATO's suggestions. I'm now going to read out what was said
18 here by the president of the military NATO committee, General Naumann, a
19 few days ago. He says: [In English] "[Previous translation continues]...
20 concerned about the security of the OSCE observers and invited the OSCE to
21 consider NATO's recommendation to withdraw them since we saw that the
22 bombing was imminent."
23 [Interpretation] Full stop there. And the next sentence: [In
24 English] "The OSCE then took the decision to withdraw them I think on the
25 20th of March."
Page 7684
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be placed on the overhead
2 projector. It's taken from the transcript, the LiveNote from this trial.
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Put it on the ELMO.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And the chairman of the military committee of NATO says that they
6 called upon the OSCE and recommended to withdraw them "since we saw that
7 the bombing was imminent."
8 JUDGE MAY: Ambassador, you heard it, but perhaps you'd like to
9 have a look and see what the witness said. If you can assist us with it,
10 say so. If not, tell us that.
11 Can you put it on the ELMO, please.
12 It should come up on your screen. If you can read it.
13 THE WITNESS: Hardly, I'm afraid, but I can.
14 JUDGE MAY: Normally, witnesses are not asked to comment on what
15 other witnesses have said, but if you can assist with that since the
16 accused has raised it, perhaps you would.
17 THE WITNESS: I -- Your Honour, I don't think that this is in
18 contravention or contradicting what I've said. Of course we were in close
19 touch with NATO, a number of NATO countries, and also NATO as such in the
20 situation that we were having, because NATO was also going to have a role
21 if there would have been a military presence in Kosovo. And we were
22 discussing the military pressure or -- that we were having. This was a
23 part of the discussion before the -- both before the withdrawal but also,
24 of course, before the bombing.
25 As I stated in my replies to the questions asked to me by the
Page 7685
1 Prosecutor, I was under -- I wouldn't call it pressure, but I was asked on
2 repeated occasions to withdraw when it became obvious that we could not
3 fulfil our mandate and when there was a security risk to the members of
4 the monitoring mission. So this -- but I held out as long as I thought
5 that we could do something useful.
6 I think, Your Honours, that the accused is putting this
7 upside-down, actually. The bombing of NATO, or to put it differently, the
8 withdrawal did not facilitate the bombing of NATO -- by NATO. But the
9 bombing by NATO was a consequence of the military actions and the lack of
10 cooperation by Mr. Milosevic and his government. And in a sequence of
11 things that were results of his activities, there was also the withdrawal
12 because we could not do whatever we were supposed to do.
13 So I can honestly state that I was not under any kind of pressure.
14 I knew that if he did not cooperate, the -- there would be bombing because
15 that was public knowledge. And also as the minister of foreign affairs
16 and in a NATO country, I discussed this with other members of NATO, but to
17 my knowledge, there was no fixed date. I could say that it was drawing
18 near, but there was no fixed date. As I stated earlier today, I did not
19 know that the bombing was coming on the 24th of March when I called Mr.
20 Milosevic, but I knew it was evident that it would be coming.
21 So to kind of present the withdrawal as the reasoning or the
22 facilitation of the bombing is to put everything upside-down, Your
23 Honours.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You, therefore, claim that NATO would have started the bombing
Page 7686
1 even if your mission had stayed in Kosovo; is that it?
2 A. Your Honours, if I -- if I may answer this question in a slightly
3 different way.
4 Mr. Milosevic, you would know even better than I that the greatest
5 damage done to Kosovo is not the NATO bombing. You seem to imply here
6 that NATO caused a lot of damage. Yes, there was some damage. Of course
7 in a war, there is some damage. But I've stated earlier today that I've
8 seen much more damage done by your people in Kosovo during the war
9 situation. But what is more important is that you, your government, your
10 military forces, started forcing people to leave Kosovo a long time before
11 there was a discussion of NATO bombing. No one wanted -- on the 1st of
12 January, when I took over as chairman in office of the OSCE, you will
13 recall at the first meeting we had - even the meeting before in 1998 -
14 that I was aiming at having Yugoslavia back into the OSCE. I thought that
15 I should achieve that in cooperation with you. I reckoned that you would
16 cooperate with the OSCE on the basis of the agreement that was signed
17 between your foreign minister and Professor Geremek in October of 1999 --
18 1998, excuse me. And this was the basis. And then we saw that you did
19 not fulfil your obligations, and your people forced the population to
20 leave and created a situation that we could not be responsible for.
21 We cannot have a situation where you have international
22 communities standing idle in various places and watching atrocities
23 happen. But I think - with Your Honours' permission - that this is what
24 you wanted, Mr. Milosevic. You wanted a small war, a little conflict that
25 was burning on and on, and you were willing to give in a little bit each
Page 7687
1 time we met so that this conflict could be continuing on a kind of
2 back-burner or a small whatever you say in English, a small flame, and you
3 could stay in power. And you were surprised that this was not possible
4 any longer.
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the transcript be removed from the ELMO and
6 given back to the accused.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. And are you aware of the fact that most of the sources, including
9 your own, during that period of time noted that most of the violations of
10 the cease-fire, the attacks that were going on and the crimes that were
11 going on were perpetrated in fact by the KLA and that the army and police
12 of Yugoslavia reacted to the attacks launched by the KLA? Are you aware
13 of that?
14 A. No, Your Honours, I am not aware that most of them were
15 perpetrated by KLA.
16 JUDGE MAY: If that is the case, if the sources, as is alleged,
17 support that, that's one of the matters which this Trial Chamber is going
18 to have to determine.
19 Yes. I interrupted you, Mr. Vollebaek.
20 THE WITNESS: That's okay, Your Honour. What I was going to say
21 is actually that this came up in the various conversations I had with
22 Mr. Milosevic, and I am afraid I do not have access to my different papers
23 and reports. I have some of them here, so if you would like, I can go
24 through some of them. But I do recall that in one of the meetings, I
25 think that must have been on the 11th of January, already, or maybe it was
Page 7688
1 later in January, Mr. Milosevic and foreign minister Jovanovic came up
2 with a long list of acts that they thought were committed by the KLA, but
3 I had an equal list. I don't know which one was the longest one, but I
4 had also a lengthy list of atrocities and incidents committed by the
5 Yugoslav forces.
6 But I do recall that in each conversation, Mr. Milosevic stated
7 what he just stated, but it is possible for Your Honours to go back and
8 look into the various OSCE reports. And if you would like to count every
9 incident, you might do that, but I do not think this is -- as I see it --
10 I agree that it's up to Your Honours to make a decision, but as I saw it
11 at that time, this was not the point. The point was that the people in
12 Kosovo didn't feel safe. The people in Kosovo experienced atrocities.
13 And the people in Kosovo was forced to leave.
14 And since Mr. Milosevic was the president at that time, his people
15 were in charge, he was also responsible for the lack of safety for his own
16 people.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. All right, then. Are you aware of the atrocities committed by the
19 KLA from which the Serbs and Albanians suffered and also members of other
20 ethnic groups in Kosovo throughout 1998 and the beginning of 1999, and the
21 intensification of those atrocities - attacks, killings, kidnappings and
22 so on and so forth - by the KLA throughout that period of time? Did you
23 know about that or not?
24 A. Mr. Milosevic, when you say "those atrocities," I think that is
25 not very specific, but I know of some incidents and these incidents were
Page 7689
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Page 7690
1 taken up by KVM, by OSCE, with the Kosovo Albanians, and it was also then
2 condemned.
3 You seem to imply, Mr. Milosevic, that we were one-sided. I will
4 object to that. I was absolutely not one-sided. We wanted to create or
5 continue to have a multi-ethnic Kosovo. And you will recall that I
6 repeatedly stated that I did not want an independent Kosovo. It was not
7 my aim to create a new country in Europe. But we were faced with a
8 situation where people were actually persecuted, I would call it, by what
9 was supposed to be the government, and that was unacceptable to us.
10 Q. All right, Mr. Vollebaek. You have said this morning in response
11 to the questions in chief that I worked for Kosovo as a multi-ethnic
12 community, that it was I who worked for that myself. Is that correct or
13 not?
14 A. Your Honours, I don't think I said you worked for it, but you
15 stated it. I think that is the big difference, Your Honours. You had --
16 you were never for war, as I recall it, you were always talking about
17 peace. You were always talking about ethnicity, Mr. Milosevic. But that
18 doesn't mean that you worked for it because your actions and acts, as I
19 repeatedly told you, and you will recall that, was contrary to peace and
20 to multi-ethnicity because one part of the population of Kosovo were
21 leaving in majority.
22 I think by the -- I don't recall the number, but you had several
23 hundred thousands of Kosovo Albanians that fled Kosovo. So this was not
24 -- this is not a question of what you said, but it's a question of what
25 you did, and that is a big difference to me.
Page 7691
1 Q. Yes. But I hope we will at least agree that this wave of refugees
2 from Kosovo started after the bombing, Mr. Vollebaek. Is that so or not?
3 A. It's not so, Mr. Milosevic. There was a number of refugees, a
4 great number of refugees that left a long time before the bombing started.
5 And as I stated earlier this morning, none of the refugees I met on the
6 border between Kosovo and Albania said that they were fleeing because of
7 the bombing. They all said that they were fleeing because their houses
8 and property were taken over by Serbs, military and non-military, that --
9 some of them claimed that their exodus was organised. I cannot verify
10 that but that was said. But anyway, as I stated earlier today, no one
11 blamed it on the bombing, but all blamed it on Serb actions in Kosovo.
12 Q. All right. We all know what they said. But if I say something,
13 that may not be true; but if they say something, that must be true. Is
14 that what you're implying, Mr. Vollebaek?
15 JUDGE MAY: That is simply a comment.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Please. Those refugees you refer to, you said yourself this
18 morning that you had seen refugees after the beginning of the bombing,
19 both on the Macedonian and on the Albanian border. Is that right?
20 A. That is right.
21 Q. Now, please tell me, when you talk about internally displaced
22 persons who had to be displaced, who left their homes in order to avoid
23 the clashes between our army and the police on the one hand and the KLA on
24 the other, is that in a way reflected in what you said this morning? And
25 you said - I noted it down - "The local population was caught in crossfire
Page 7692
1 between the two forces, the army and the KLA." Is that right?
2 Isn't it logical, then, that in places where the KLA initiates and
3 provokes an attack which is responded to by the army and the police, the
4 civilian population flees in order to avoid the consequences of those
5 clashes?
6 A. Your Honours, I feel that this is -- these questions are rather
7 repetitive, but, yes, there were occasions when there were clashes between
8 KLA and the -- as I know, I was told or it was reported to me, I was not
9 on the ground, but I received reports from KVM about clashes between KLA
10 and the Serb military or police and that the civilians had to flee or
11 leave their houses or villages due to that. But this was not the case
12 during the bombing.
13 And if Your Honours permit me to divert a little bit, because I
14 feel that the accused seems to imply that the refugees were not telling
15 the truth when they met with me and when they left. Maybe in order to
16 create a better impression.
17 I happened to visit Cechnya late, very late in 1999. I was close
18 to Grozny, and I was surrounded by Russian military --
19 Q. Please, Mr. Vollebaek. We don't have time --
20 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness explain. He's going to explain
21 something. Let him do that.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My time is limited, Mr. May. You
23 limited it yourself.
24 JUDGE MAY: I know. We have that in mind. Let the witness
25 explain.
Page 7693
1 THE WITNESS: I shall be as brief as possible. To tell us a
2 little bit about the situation, I was surrounded by Russian military, and
3 there were refugees coming out from Grozny. They knew that there were
4 Russian military around but they were furious against the Russians. They
5 were really angry and told about how this safe corridor was not safe, how
6 they had been attacked and how they were suffering. If NATO bombings had
7 been the reason for these refugees fleeing, why couldn't they have
8 addressed me in the same way and told me face-to-face that you are
9 responsible? They had nothing to gain. They had lost everything, and
10 they had absolutely nothing to gain from pleasing me.
11 So I think it is very important, Mr. Milosevic, that you don't try
12 to undermine the witness that these refugees give, because they all gave
13 the same witness about how they had had to flee due to your actions in
14 Kosovo and not NATO.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. And how many refugees did you talk to that day, Mr. Vollebaek?
17 A. I have absolutely no number to tell you, Mr. Milosevic. I think
18 that is not important at all. I saw thousands of them, and I could pick
19 anyone. I could be there as long as I wanted, there was no one hindering
20 me in talking to anyone. But I spoke to enough to be convinced that they
21 told the truth.
22 Q. I asked you how many refugees you talked to in order to determine
23 such a major fact out of those hundreds of thousands -- dozens of
24 thousands, sorry, you saw that day, as you claim.
25 A. I didn't say dozens of thousands, I said several thousands, first
Page 7694
1 of all. And secondly, in addition to those I spoke to, a number of other
2 people spoke to. We had the OSCE people there, talking to every single
3 one. I didn't speak to them personally. But as I told earlier today, we
4 took down the data, we took down the names and addresses and licence
5 plates that you had actually removed in order for them to lose their
6 identity. We gave them back their identity. So the OSCE representative
7 spoke to everyone that passed through that border post.
8 Q. All right. I won't waste more time. I just want to tell you that
9 I had just quoted notes from official meetings, such as one with Robin
10 Cook in London in spring 1999, at which it was claimed clearly and
11 decidedly that most of the incidents were initiated by the KLA. And there
12 are other sources except the British ones who state the same thing. Are
13 you aware of that or not?
14 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... says about this,
15 and really, too, we're asking him about -- questions about meetings at
16 which he was not present is not going to help. He's given his evidence
17 about what he knew about the KLA.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. All right. You wrote in your statement -- let me read it to you:
20 "There was no doubt that President Milosevic thought it extremely
21 important for Kosovo to stay within Serbia. We felt that the whole time."
22 And so on and so forth. You said I gave you presents of books about
23 Kosovo to prove how Kosovo belonged in Serbia, and churches in Kosovo,
24 about Kosovo being the cradle of Serbian culture. "I thought that that
25 was his personal belief, and he felt very strongly about it." You said a
Page 7695
1 moment ago that I spoke about Kosovo needing to be multi-ethnic or not.
2 Now, tell me, do you believe that Kosovo is or isn't a part of
3 Serbia? I'm not quite clear on what you're saying here.
4 A. Your Honours, I'm not certain if this question is relevant.
5 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you can help us by repeating to us what your
6 view was at the time when you were negotiating with Mr. Milosevic.
7 THE WITNESS: You will know that -- Your Honours, that Kosovo had
8 had different status over the years, different status with respect to
9 autonomy. There was no doubt in my mind that we should aim at having
10 Kosovo as a part of Yugoslavia, but the constitution of Kosovo had changed
11 several times over the last years or decades, and there was a disagreement
12 between the government in Belgrade and the Kosovo Albanian leaders whether
13 Kosovo was actually a part of Serbia as such. As you know, the Federal
14 Republic of Yugoslavia was made up of several republics.
15 I found at that time that it was important for me to state that I
16 didn't want to divide the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I didn't want
17 an independent state of Kosovo. But the role of Kosovo without -- within
18 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia I left somewhat open. And I understood
19 and thought that it might be given some more autonomy than what it had at
20 that time.
21 I guess that one would say -- I must admit that I have not studied
22 the constitution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or Serbia lately,
23 but my understanding was that the latest constitution implied that Kosovo
24 was a part of Serbia, but that was then disputed by Kosovo Albanian
25 leaders.
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Page 7697
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. And do you know, Mr. Vollebaek, that under all constitutions since
3 the autonomous province was in existence, that is since the Second World
4 War until today's constitution, Kosovo has always been a part of Serbia.
5 And certainly before the Second World War too, Kosovo was part of Serbia.
6 Are you aware of that?
7 A. Your Honours, I'm not certain what this implies. Even if, Your
8 Honours, one should admit that Serbia was an integral -- that Kosovo was
9 an integral part of Serbia, Mr. Milosevic was under -- or there were a
10 number of international agreements that entitled the population to use the
11 language, to be able to continue having cultural activities and to have
12 schools, universities, and these things were taken away from them. Even
13 if a province is an integral part of your country, that doesn't entitle
14 the president to make atrocities against the population in that part of
15 the country.
16 Q. And you believe that at a certain stage the Albanians at Kosovo
17 were deprived of the right to use their language, to promote their
18 culture, publish their newspapers, et cetera.
19 Could you please tell me, at what stage did that happen? When
20 were they deprived of that right and were they deprived of it?
21 JUDGE MAY: We are now getting far from the witness's evidence.
22 He deals with 1999. Also, there's a meeting with you in 1993 if you want
23 to ask him about that.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will ask him about anything and
25 everything within the strict limits that you have imposed on me. All of
Page 7698
1 these are important issues, Mr. May.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. So since you are saying that they were deprived of something, did
4 it ever happen from World War II until 1999, or at the time when you were
5 involved in Yugoslav issues, did it ever happen that Albanians in Kosovo
6 were deprived of the right to use their languages, have their own
7 institutions, have their own newspapers, cultural societies and so on and
8 so forth, and to use their own language in all official communications?
9 A. Your Honours, if I may, then, refer to my period, if I may call it
10 that, 1999. There was no doubt that this was the main reason for the
11 conflict. The Kosovo Albanians felt that they were deprived of the right
12 to use the language, they were deprived of their right to -- to have their
13 own educational system. This was one of the main issues that I was
14 discussing with Mr. Rugova. And there is no doubt, Your Honours, that
15 there was a radicalisation on the Kosovo Albanian side, precisely because
16 of the attitude taken by Mr. Milosevic.
17 I -- the first time I met with Mr. Rugova, I think, was in April
18 1998 when I at the same time more or less had a first meeting with Mr.
19 Milosevic when I was foreign minister, and there was quite a development,
20 as I saw it, in Mr. Rugova's attitude from that time and when I met him
21 again in 1999 because of the deterioration of the situation and the
22 pressure he was under. He was not able to be as forthcoming, as open, as
23 - what shall I say? - moderate as he was in 1998 when I met him again in
24 1999 precisely because of the activities taken by Mr. Milosevic and his
25 government.
Page 7699
1 Q. All right. Tell me, then, since it is obvious that we have no
2 time to establish that kind of facts, after such a precedent that was made
3 making NATO in charge of the OSCE, is it possible at all for this
4 organisation to have any kind of credibility?
5 JUDGE MAY: There's no need to answer the question generally, but
6 what is being suggested is that NATO was in charge of the OSCE.
7 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, with all due respect, this is nonsense.
8 I mean, I happened to be a foreign minister of a NATO country, but I dealt
9 with all the 53 members of the OSCE, and we -- as you know, the OSCE is an
10 organisation that works on the basis of consensus. And we had to agree on
11 whatever action we took and whatever attitude we had. And one of my
12 closest allies or - what shall I say? - advisors in this period was the
13 foreign minister of Russia, Igor Ivanov, with whom I dealt with a lot
14 because we knew, or hoped, that Russia had an influence in Belgrade.
15 Maybe they didn't have as much as we hoped for and thought, but anyway, we
16 were working closely with them. So to imply that NATO was in charge of
17 the OSCE is, as I said, Your Honour, with all due respect, nonsense.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. All right. And what about ideas -- and let us now divert from the
20 area of management in the strict sense. Did the ideas of European --
21 could the ideas of European security and cooperation be more compromised
22 than they actually were compromised by virtue of the fact that this
23 organisation played a role in the bombing of a part of European territory
24 and was party to a crime committed against a European country?
25 JUDGE MAY: We have already dealt fully with this, and this is not
Page 7700
1 the place, as you know quite well, for political speeches. Now, what is
2 your next question?
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. All right. Since you now live in the United States where you are
5 the Norwegian ambassador, did you perhaps have occasion to acquaint
6 yourself with the position of a very renowned American which says -- who
7 says: [In English] "Constituents --"
8 JUDGE MAY: If we are going to have the views of various
9 journalists, I think there's little point going into it.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, this is not views of
11 various journalists. This is the position of Walter J. Rockler, expressed
12 and published, and this man was a Prosecutor in Nuremberg, a famous
13 American humanist and lawyer.
14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. It's not the view of a journalist, it's
15 the view of a Prosecutor from Nuremberg. With due respect, it is equally
16 irrelevant.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I would like to hear the answer
18 of Mr. Vollebaek --
19 JUDGE MAY: His opinion, too, on the opinion of the Prosecutor
20 would be equally irrelevant. Now, ask some other questions about his
21 evidence.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But this has a direct impact on the
23 essence of his testimony about the role of the NATO, and I don't know why
24 you are against it if it would take only a few seconds.
25 JUDGE MAY: If you want to put something about the role of NATO,
Page 7701
1 you can. But you're not going to ask him about the views of other people,
2 which are simply that, views.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll assume that as my
4 own view and then I'll ask him if he agrees with my opinion.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. The attack on Yugoslavia constitutes the most brazen international
7 aggression [In English] attack to --
8 JUDGE MAY: No. This is irrelevant. As you know quite well,
9 Mr. Milosevic, this is the issue which the Trial Chamber are going to have
10 to determine, and this witness's views as to the views of Mr. Rockler are
11 totally irrelevant.
12 Now, have you questions about the evidence or not? If not, we'll
13 bring this cross-examination to a close.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have very many questions, as you
15 very well know, Mr. May, and I will continue with my cross-examination.
16 But you are not interested in the views of others. I can see that. I
17 don't know if you are interested at all in the opinion of the people of
18 Norway, of young people or citizens of democratic countries who do not
19 share at all --
20 JUDGE MAY: The views of young people are equally irrelevant.
21 Now, let us get down to the questions about this witness's evidence. He
22 gave evidence about meetings with you, and if you've got some questions
23 about it, you should ask. Particularly if you want to challenge his
24 account; you should put it into him.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, allow me, please, to put
Page 7702
1 the questions that I believe appropriate, and of course I will contest a
2 lot of what has been said here. And I am not in doubt that he will easily
3 convince you, but he cannot convince even the people of his own country as
4 to the role of NATO.
5 JUDGE MAY: Now, if you have a question, ask it and stop making
6 speeches.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Let us follow up on this briefly. Since you were trying to
10 convince me to continue negotiations and to enable some sort of
11 international presence, did you understand that to mean exclusively the
12 presence of military forces led by NATO and commanded by NATO? Did you
13 imply only that when you used the term "international presence"? Is that
14 right or not?
15 A. I -- we were discussing, for instance, with Russia to participate
16 in the military presence. As you will know, Your Honours, Russia also
17 participated in the Rambouillet talks, and the basis for the -- for the
18 military presence would be the Rambouillet agreement.
19 Q. Please. I am not asking you about somebody's symbolic
20 involvement. I'm asking you very directly: When you said "international
21 presence," did you mean exclusively military forces commanded and led by
22 NATO? Yes or no.
23 A. Your Honour, it is difficult to answer Mr. Milosevic. That is
24 nothing new to me because he -- Mr. Milosevic, this is what we have been
25 doing time and again when we were talking together. I clearly said I
Page 7703
1 meant more than just NATO presence. You heard me say that. And you then
2 imply your twist or whatever or interpret what I'm saying. And, well, I
3 said yes, I meant more than NATO.
4 Q. So some force under the command of the UN or OSCE not commanded by
5 NATO. Is that what you're saying now?
6 A. Mr. Milosevic, due to the fact that you behaved the way you did,
7 we never came to the point where we could discuss how we should organise
8 this. If you had been willing to participate in the negotiations, this
9 could have been dealt with and we would have avoided a major war and a lot
10 of suffering of people.
11 We were -- we wanted whatever action to be taken under the
12 umbrella of the United Nations, of the OSCE, but we knew that, for
13 instance, the OSCE did not have enough -- or this is not a military
14 organisation so we had to call on others to assist us in order for us to
15 do whatever we were going to do. And this military assistance would have
16 probably to have been a strong NATO component but not exclusively NATO.
17 Q. And it would not have been under the command of NATO, and it would
18 not have been led by NATO; is that what you're saying?
19 A. Your Honours, I think it's irrelevant to discuss whatever would
20 have been. We are discussing, to my knowledge -- or I'm giving witness
21 what happened, not what would have happened if other things had happened.
22 JUDGE MAY: Just so we can understand the position, when you were
23 discussing the use of a military presence with the accused, did you make
24 it plain that it was more than NATO that you had in mind?
25 THE WITNESS: What I do recall -- I must admit, Your Honour, that
Page 7704
1 I do not recall details of the conversation. First of all, I had several
2 and also sometimes I got little bit carried away because I got, I must
3 admit, angry, so I do not recall everything I said. But what I do recall
4 very strongly was that I said and insisted that this military presence
5 should be on the invitation by the government of Yugoslavia. It was --
6 Mr. Milosevic would have a role to play in this. He could look at whoever
7 was part of it if he would have been willing to participate and discuss
8 this with us. But there was never a discussion, because he said there was
9 no question of any foreign military presence. He didn't refer to NATO, he
10 referred to foreign military presence. I never thought -- I don't think I
11 had an opportunity to discuss whether it should be NATO or non-NATO
12 because the mere fact of a military presence was unacceptable to him.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Please. Are you aware of the fact, for instance, that on the 28th
15 of February the Russian agency ITAR-Tass was reporting from Rambouillet,
16 that the Contact Group may offer, as a compromise, an option under which
17 the UN, the OSCE, and so on, and it also mentions flags other than NATO,
18 and that France press agency said that the Serbian delegation insisted on
19 that very day that the issue of peacekeepers should be resolved in such a
20 way that peacekeepers be responsible to a body such as the OSCE or the
21 United Nations? Are you aware of that?
22 A. No. I do not recall that ITAR-Tass report.
23 Q. All right. Very well, then. Now, as all this was contained in
24 documents and cannot be contested, do you happen to remember in this
25 regard the statement made by Madeleine Albright on the very next day, and
Page 7705
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Page 7706
1 she said the following: [In English] "We accept nothing less than
2 complete, including NATO-led forces. The United States' position is that
3 it has to be a NATO-led force. That is the basis of our participation in
4 it."
5 [Interpretation] That is her statement. And then two days later,
6 she repeated that position at a press conference, and I'm going to quote:
7 [In English] "It was asked earlier when we were all together whether the
8 force would be anything different than a NATO-led force. I can just tell
9 you point blank from the perspective of the United States, absolutely not.
10 It must be NATO-led forces."
11 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. What is the relevance of any of this
12 to the witness?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The relevance lies in the fact that
14 what is talked about here is some sort of peace operations, alleged ones,
15 whereas in fact what is being spoken of is the NATO occupation of Kosovo.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. And judging by the agreement on implementation, this would have
18 meant in fact NATO's occupation of Yugoslavia as a whole. Is that correct
19 or not?
20 A. Your Honours, I think this is irrelevant, but I -- of course there
21 was no question of an occupation. I -- as I have stated earlier, I
22 insisted that this should be and had to be on the invitation of the
23 government of Belgrade, because we could not have a military presence
24 there on the ground without the consent of the government of Belgrade.
25 So this is -- but I feel, Your Honours, that the accused is trying
Page 7707
1 to make a kind of new case here. And with all due respect, I must say I
2 feel that this is beyond what I have stated in my written witness.
3 JUDGE MAY: Would you let us be the judges of that.
4 THE WITNESS: I will. I will ask you for your advice then, Your
5 Honour.
6 JUDGE MAY: We will decide what's relevant and what isn't. As you
7 appreciate, this accused is representing himself, and therefore he has to
8 have some leeway.
9 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Now, have you got any other questions which
10 do relate to this witness?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know why you keep asking me
12 that question. You've given me two hours, so I will use that time, those
13 two short hours, Mr. May, to ask my questions.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you know -- are you aware as you've been -- Norway was a member
16 of NATO from the very beginning. Although you tried to endeavour to play
17 a neutral role, you weren't able to do that. Are you aware of the defence
18 planning guidance, 1994 to 1999, Pentagon's --
19 JUDGE MAY: No. No. I think we've really heard enough on this
20 topic of NATO's role, and I'm going to stop any more questions about it.
21 The witness has been answering questions about this for an hour and more.
22 Now, you have not yet asked him questions about the meetings which
23 you had, and in the next hour which you have, I suggest you do, because
24 that's what his evidence was about.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Vollebaek, Mr. May, is here --
Page 7708
1 actually, in his testimony here, he said that as the foreign minister, he
2 was included and involved in the activities of NATO, of which Norway is a
3 member. And I think I do have the right --
4 JUDGE MAY: You have -- what you have is the right to ask the
5 witness questions, as you have done, for an hour on this topic. But what
6 you don't have the right to do is to abuse the time of the Court and the
7 process by continually going over the same topic over and over again and
8 trying to score points.
9 Now, your cross-examination should from now on go on to other
10 topics, that is, other than NATO.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, there is just one topic
12 here and that is the crime committed against Yugoslavia and the attempt to
13 cover up that crime with an evasive --
14 JUDGE MAY: You are here to ask the witness questions and not to
15 make these speeches. Now, then, unless you have any more questions, this
16 cross-examination will be brought to an end.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask a question now, please,
18 Mr. May?
19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. As Minister, as I was saying, were you aware of -- did you know
22 about this position, the position that said therefore, it is of
23 fundamental importance [In English] to preserve NATO as primary --
24 JUDGE MAY: I have ruled that as irrelevant and time-wasting.
25 Now, you are to move on from NATO. You've spent an hour on NATO.
Page 7709
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. And, Mr. Vollebaek, do you know about this, something that was
3 written by George Kenney, who was --
4 JUDGE MAY: No. Who was Mr. Kenney? I forget. We've had him
5 before. I think he's a journalist, but I may be wrong.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He was an American diplomat.
7 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. Quite right. He was an American diplomat.
8 But I'm not going to allow you to put these questions in which you ask
9 witnesses about the opinions of various people. These opinions are
10 totally irrelevant to the Trial Chamber, and therefore the witness's
11 answer to them would equally be irrelevant.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what I'm dealing with is
13 facts, this particular fact which indicates the nature of those simulated
14 negotiations, so-called negotiations at Rambouillet, because this official
15 from America says the following: "We intentionally set the bar too high
16 for the Serbs to comply."
17 JUDGE MAY: One matter is this before we go into it: Do you --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And this was confirmed and borne
19 out --
20 JUDGE MAY: Did you have any connection with the negotiations at
21 Rambouillet?
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, as chairman in office then of the OSCE,
23 I participated at some of the meetings as an observer. It was dealt with,
24 as you may know, by the Contact Group, but in my capacity then I was
25 invited in. So I did participate in two or three meetings, if I recall
Page 7710
1 correctly, a couple of meetings in Rambouillet and then one when it was
2 moved after the break.
3 But, Your Honours, since Mr. Milosevic referred to this as
4 something that was imposed on him, I think I would like to state, with
5 your permission, that up to the break the Serb delegation actively
6 participated in the negotiations and actually were part of whatever
7 agreement was reached. So it is again wrong to pretend that this was
8 imposed on them. They later changed their mind and they later said they
9 would not go along with it, but in my meeting with Mr. Milosevic, I guess
10 it was then on the 1st of March, in this break, we were discussing the
11 Rambouillet agreement, and he did what he seems to do now, kind of
12 distance himself from it. And I had to remind him that his delegation had
13 been actively participating in the negotiations.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. That's precisely what I'm saying, I'm claiming, and participated
16 with goodwill at that, Mr. Vollebaek, in the negotiations, and accepted a
17 political solution, but not the occupation of Yugoslavia, Mr. Vollebaek.
18 Are you aware of that? Do you know if that was so or not?
19 JUDGE MAY: No need to answer that unless you want to.
20 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, again I'm a little bit uncertain, but
21 yes, the Serb delegation participated in the negotiations. I felt there
22 was a change in their attitude when this break came up. And all along it
23 was very important for us from the OSCE side to make sure that there was a
24 military presence precisely because of the activities beforehand of
25 Mr. Milosevic. I realised that I could not be responsible for a new
Page 7711
1 civilian mission without -- without the military presence to support this
2 mission.
3 And to put this bluntly, Your Honours, this was because I didn't
4 trust Mr. Milosevic. I didn't trust that he would comply. He did not
5 comply with the agreement we had signed in October 1998, so why should he
6 comply with a new agreement? And I could not be responsible for putting
7 civilians there that I had seen could not do what they were supposed to do
8 in a new situation. That would be ridiculous, first of all, and then --
9 well, not first of all. I guess first of all, it would not help the
10 people, and secondly it would be ridiculous. And that's why --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Vollebaek, please slow down a little.
12 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. And that is why we wanted the military
13 presence, to assist us in the functions that we were going to fulfil from
14 the OSCE side.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Vollebaek, as you are referring to the reports of your mission
17 and the assessments made by the people from the Verification Mission, do
18 you know about an assessment made by the -- an ambassador, your colleague,
19 French Ambassador Gabriel Keller, who was the Deputy Head of Mission and
20 in which he says the following. I'm going to read it out. Several of his
21 statements. Their authenticity can be checked out, of course. And tell
22 me once I've read it whether that coincides with what you yourself say as
23 to the opinions of the mission's members. This is your colleague the
24 French ambassador, Deputy Head of Mission. He says the following: [In
25 English] "The even-handedness of the mission was questioned from the very
Page 7712
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Page 7713
1 beginning. We never managed to clear this impression. After some weeks
2 of our presence, the global image of OSCE/KVM was to be anti-Serb,
3 pro-Albanian, and pro-NATO," et cetera. "Nothing was done to correct this
4 image."
5 [Interpretation] That's what he says. Then he goes on to say the
6 following: [In English] "The KLA never really tried as a whole to
7 participate in the improvement of the situation on the ground. Every pull
8 back by the Yugoslav army or the Serbian police was followed by a movement
9 forward by its force which the other side, of course, considered as a
10 violation of the cease-fire. OSCE presence compelled the state forces to
11 a certain restraint, at least at the beginning of our mission, and KLA
12 took advantage of this to consolidate its position everywhere, continuing
13 smuggling arms from Albania, abducting and killing people, both civilians
14 and militaries, Albanians and Serbs as well."
15 [Interpretation] Are you aware of that, Mr. Vollebaek, these
16 opinions here? So they're not opinions of any journalists or any
17 outsiders or anything of that kind but at the top echelon of the insiders.
18 Now, does this assessment mean anything to you?
19 A. Your Honours, I do not recall that statement, but I have, of
20 course, no reason to not trust that this is correctly referred to by
21 Mr. Milosevic. I beg to disagree with Ambassador Keller. I don't think
22 we were one-sided. I was chairman in office of the OSCE, not Ambassador
23 Keller. He was deputy head of the KVM mission, which was a body under the
24 OSCE, and I took every effort, I really made an effort to be even-handed.
25 And I repeatedly also - you will recall that, Mr. Milosevic, if you are
Page 7714
1 honest - that I stated several times that we wanted to cooperate with you,
2 we wanted Yugoslavia included in OSCE, we did not want to -- to exclude
3 you or target neither Yugoslavia nor the Serb population. And when issues
4 came up and you referred to issues -- atrocities, incidents that had
5 happened by KLA or there were reports about that, we dealt with that. We
6 did not accept it. That there were things going on on the ground that
7 might be perfect, I am certain that that's the case.
8 But again, this is not the point here, Your Honour, if I may.
9 Actually, the greatest exodus of the population and the greatest
10 atrocities against the population happened, Mr. Milosevic, after the
11 withdrawal of the KVM. So then you could have really showed that you were
12 a proper leader and cooperated with the people. You had all the chances.
13 You were in command. But you did not do that. You then fulfilled
14 whatever we thought you were aiming at and the reason why we had to react.
15 Q. So that means -- actually, are you aware of the contradiction that
16 you state in just one single sentence, that the atrocities, that means the
17 events during the war, occurred after the withdrawal of the KVM? That
18 means that once the war had began and the conflicts began and the KLA had
19 launched operations, once it had proclaimed mobilisation over a broad
20 front against the Yugoslav forces, so all that happened precisely at that
21 time, and you, because of the activities of the KLA, came across counter
22 reaction by the Yugoslav side, you are blaming the Yugoslav government and
23 me, or, rather, me personally for it all.
24 A. Mr. Milosevic, you heard me saying time and again today that this
25 conflict was -- had happened or had gone on for a long time. I did not
Page 7715
1 state that the atrocities only happened after the withdrawal of the KVM,
2 but I said that the largest majority or the large majority of the people
3 were expelled, driven out of their homes during that period. But there
4 was a build-up for several months and weeks, and you know that. We
5 discussed this every time we met, and I referred to examples, reports that
6 I had. And at that time, I had them in front of me and I had names and I
7 had dates and I had places, and if the court so desire, of course it's
8 possible to find these reports.
9 So this is -- I mean, you are making a -- I mean, your statement
10 has nothing to do with the situation on the ground, Mr. Milosevic.
11 Q. Mr. Vollebaek, well, I assume you understand that all the reports
12 that were published by the Verification Mission, that that is implied that
13 they were sent to us too and that to a certain extent that they are public
14 documents. So why, then, would there be any dispute about what it says in
15 the reports?
16 Now, as far as your own mandate was concerned, your incoming
17 mandate as the president of the OSCE in 1999, at the meeting in 1998 it is
18 true that we talked about the fact that Yugoslavia should ultimately be
19 given its seat in the OSCE which was illegally taken away from it. I'm
20 sure you will recall myself as having said -- and of course it wasn't
21 withheld and withdrawn in 1999 but at the beginning of the 1990s to enable
22 the disruption of Yugoslavia -- that the OSCE, which was functioning, as
23 you yourself state, on the principle of consensus, took the decision
24 bypassing this principle of consensus, that is to say without Yugoslavia's
25 acquiescence, to suspend the membership of Yugoslavia in the OSCE. I'm
Page 7716
1 sure you'll remember that.
2 A. Your Honours, I'm not certain I have to ask -- or answer this
3 question. Again, I stated -- that's correctly stated or said by
4 Mr. Milosevic that I wanted Yugoslavia back into -- into the OSCE. What
5 happened long time before I became chairman of the OSCE, I don't think, is
6 my responsibility. I worked towards the aim of having them back, that
7 they should comply with the prerequisites. And this was an issue in April
8 1998, but it was also an issue when we met the first time in January 1999.
9 So that was -- I was aiming at that. But there was, as I saw it, Your
10 Honours, no cooperation from the side of Mr. Milosevic to comply with the
11 prerequisites for such a membership.
12 Q. All right. Well, the membership was taken away from it illegally.
13 Let's not go into discussions about the fulfilment of conditions for
14 Yugoslavia's membership. Yugoslavia was one of the founding states of the
15 OSCE anyway.
16 Now, you have -- that is to say you're talking about some crimes
17 here, the crimes that you discussed with me. Now, I should like to remind
18 you that on page 7 of your statement, in the Serbian version, that is, and
19 I suppose the person that took this statement made the titles, and it
20 says: "Discussions with Slobodan Milosevic about war crimes in Kosovo."
21 That is the subtitle. And then we come to what you say. "I don't
22 remember that that issue was a topic that we discussed." That's what you
23 say and that is with respect to the questions posed to you by the
24 investigator on talks with Milosevic on these things in Kosovo. You say
25 that you don't know remember that that was a topic of discussion. That's
Page 7717
1 what it says in your statement. "I cannot remember that this question was
2 an issue that we brought up," that's what you say.
3 But let me ask you this, Mr. Vollebaek: Do you feel that there is
4 far too much of these matters that you don't seem to remember and unclear
5 explanations in your statement? Look at that same page. The subtitle is
6 "Paramilitary formations --" "Paramilitaries."
7 JUDGE MAY: If you're going to put things, particularly like that,
8 to the witness, he should have a copy of the statement.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: I agree, Your Honour. Not only that, but there are
10 two statements, and I don't know which of those two. But I have a copy of
11 both of Ambassador Vollebaek's statements available, and with the Court's
12 permission, I propose the usher give him access to both statements.
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. And if you would --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the long
15 statement, the long one.
16 JUDGE MAY: And if you would pass one to the Court, please.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, copies for the Court, please.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it will take up too much of
19 our time, Mr. May. I hope that you will take that into account and extend
20 the time you have allotted me.
21 JUDGE MAY: If you're going to ask questions about a statement,
22 the witness must be able to see it, see what you're asking. Now, we need
23 copies to follow too.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: When Mr. Milosevic says the long statement, is he
25 referring to the 16-page statement taken on the 8th of January, 2002?
Page 7718
1 JUDGE MAY: I guess so, because the other one is eight pages.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, the one that's 16 pages long.
4 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Your Honours, but could you tell me on
5 which page it would be in the English version?
6 JUDGE MAY: We may have to find that.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Serbian version, it is on page
8 7. I don't know about the English version, whether it's on a different
9 page, I haven't got my English text in front of me.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may assist. About halfway of page 6 there is
11 something in italics right in the middle that says: "Slobodan Milosevic's
12 view of the conflict in Kosovo." Is that what --
13 JUDGE MAY: Let's see what the --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, no. It says here:
15 "Discussions with Slobodan Milosevic about war crimes in Kosovo." That is
16 on page 7. That is the subtitle. Before that, it says: "Meetings with
17 Milutinovic and Sainovic."
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, I see it. It's the bottom line on page 7, the
19 very last line, above the signatures. It's a title without a paragraph
20 following it.
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. So "Discussions with Milosevic about war crimes in Kosovo." The
24 answer is the following, and I'm reading the sentence: "I cannot remember
25 that this question was an issue that we brought up." Is that right or
Page 7719
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Page 7720
1 not?
2 A. That is correct, Your Honours. I did not bring up the issue of
3 war crimes as such in my conversations with Mr. Milosevic.
4 Q. Very well. And now tell me this: How -- or, rather, before that,
5 there are two subtitles. One is "Paramilitaries," paramilitary
6 formations, paramilitaries. And then in that paragraph, you say: "I
7 don't think that paramilitary groups were mentioned in the conversations I
8 had with Slobodan Milosevic..." "I don't think that paramilitary groups
9 were mentioned in the conversations I had with Slobodan Milosevic, but we
10 were aware of their existence, and I believe that we also discussed the
11 issue with him as well..."
12 Now, what am I to deduce from that when you, in one sentence say
13 that you don't think you discussed paramilitary groups with me and then
14 you say that you think you do. You believe we did discuss the issue. And
15 as far as you remember, "this was nothing that he claimed to be using."
16 What is this all about, Mr. Vollebaek?
17 A. Your Honour, the accused will know that there were a number of
18 groups in Kosovo that were active in addition to the -- to the ordinary
19 army. But when we raised these issues to the extent that this was raised,
20 they were mainly raised by the KVM and not by me because they were local
21 incidents. But it was, to my knowledge, never accepted as a notion,
22 connotation, that there were paramilitary groups present or in activity.
23 According to the reports I received from KVM, they considered
24 activities, atrocities, incidents that had happened, that they had been
25 committed by paramilitary groups. That means, as I understood it, not the
Page 7721
1 ordinary military force. But since Mr. Milosevic never admitted that
2 there were paramilitary groups, this is not an issue that we discussed in
3 the meetings that I had with him, to my recollection. I could be wrong,
4 but I cannot recall that that was mentioned per se.
5 Q. I'm only referring to the contradictions and lack of logic,
6 Mr. Vollebaek. If we're talking about paramilitary groups, were you at
7 least later on able to come by any information or knowledge of any kind
8 about the fact that there was an order issued by our Supreme Command that
9 paramilitary units were to be arrested and disarmed? Are you aware of
10 that? Did you receive that information? Because, of course, they could
11 always crop up. But did you have an awareness of that?
12 A. Your Honours, I'm not certain that I fully understand the
13 question, but what I referred to was reports that I received from KVM
14 about activities against the civilian population in Kosovo. Some of these
15 actions were clearly done, committed by the military, some were not. And
16 this is the reports that I had. And in addition, whatever then, as I
17 said, the refugees told me when I met with them outside of Kosovo after
18 the war or during that part of the war.
19 Q. All right. We'll have to move faster. You say here, when you say
20 that you met me, that you consider that the first meeting we had, apart
21 from in 1993, was with respect to Walker. It doesn't matter whether it
22 was in fact our first meeting or second meeting, but you came after the
23 events in Racak, on the 21st of January, to Belgrade in order to convince
24 the Yugoslav authorities to change their decision with respect to
25 proclaiming Walker persona non grata; is that right?
Page 7722
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Now, since you were working in that capacity, you were also aware
3 of the fact that you could withdraw the KVM; right? That's not being
4 contested.
5 A. Yes. I had power to do that.
6 Q. Now, do you remember that in the meeting with me and with other
7 representatives of the Yugoslav authorities - you had separate meetings
8 with the foreign minister, for example, and I don't know who else - you
9 said that you would withdraw the KVM if Walker was proclaimed a persona
10 non grata on the territory of Yugoslavia; isn't that so?
11 A. Well, I have to admit, Mr. Milosevic, that I am not certain that I
12 can remember exactly what I said, but I do remember that the question of
13 withdrawal was an issue both in our conversation but also in our own
14 deliberations. You, as I mentioned earlier, suggested that we could
15 change the head of the KVM. You said that you would prefer a Norwegian.
16 And I said that this was not up to you to decide, it was up to me. And I
17 don't think I threatened with the withdrawal, but I think I said that the
18 expulsion of Ambassador Walker would lead to the withdrawal.
19 But we were not, to be very frank with you, Mr. Milosevic, we were
20 not -- we were not certain that it was a threat to withdraw the KVM,
21 actually, at that time. So we did not want to play into your hands that
22 we would withdraw. So this was a little bit of a difficult issue for us,
23 because we thought that you might welcome any withdrawal so that it
24 wouldn't be a threat but actually, rather, the opposite.
25 So to -- as far as I can recall, I was rather cautious in talking
Page 7723
1 about the withdrawal from KVM, but I said that the consequence of
2 expulsion would be -- would be that KVM could not continue. We could not
3 change it. It was not to you but up to me.
4 JUDGE MAY: We must adjourn. It is now a minute or so past 1.00.
5 We will adjourn until half past two. Mr. Vollebaek, if you'd be back
6 then, please.
7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.
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Page 7724
1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. So, Mr. Vollebaek, I maintain that the only reason why we agreed
5 to freeze the decision on the proclamation of Mr. Walker as persona non
6 grata was precisely the threat that the entire Verification Mission would
7 be withdrawn. Is that correct or not?
8 A. Your Honour, I suppose it's not up to me to decide what was the
9 intention or the assessment of Mr. Milosevic. My understanding of the
10 conversation we had at that time was that all taken into consideration, he
11 accepted to keep Ambassador Walker as head of the KVM because an expulsion
12 would be in violation of the agreement that we had signed with him, the
13 OSCE had signed with the government of Belgrade in 1998. And I was
14 satisfied with that decision because this was early in 1999 and I still
15 had a hope that we could fulfil the mandate. So I accepted what I then
16 saw as an unconditional freeze so that we could continue in accordance
17 with the agreement that was signed.
18 Q. All right. I should like to ask you to be more brief in your
19 answers, because you know my time is very limited.
20 Do you know that in this agreement signed by Mr. Jovanovic and
21 Mr. Geremek about the establishment of the Verification Mission, it said,
22 among other things, that the Vienna Convention should apply? Just yes or
23 no, please.
24 A. Your Honour, I do not have the -- well, I do have the agreement
25 among my papers but I do not have it in front of me and I'm not certain
Page 7725
1 whether I should look into it. But my understanding is that we were going
2 to apply, as I recall it, the Vienna Convention was part of the agreement.
3 Q. All right. Since the Vienna Convention was an integral part of
4 the agreement, I suppose you can't claim that Mr. Walker could not be
5 proclaimed persona non grata and that doing so was a breach of the
6 agreement if the Vienna Convention was part of that agreement, as we
7 agreed.
8 A. The agreement, Mr. Milosevic, said that the OSCE and the
9 government in Belgrade were going to cooperate on the Kosovo Verification
10 Mission. Within this -- and it also said that this mission was
11 established by the OSCE, and it said that the OSCE should then appoint a
12 head of the mission. And this was my main point, that you could not
13 decide who should be the head of the mission. That was up to me.
14 Q. Of course that we could not decide who it would be, but in any
15 event, in keeping with the Vienna Convention, we had the right to proclaim
16 somebody persona non grata. I hope you don't dispute that,
17 Mr. Vollebaek.
18 A. My point again was that this position of yours was a violation of
19 the agreement. In addition to that, I saw no point in your declaration of
20 Mr. Walker persona non grata.
21 Q. Mr. Vollebaek, you are saying that it was your right to appoint
22 the head of the mission. By the same token, it is the right of the head
23 of state to appoint ambassadors. That's the way you were appointed by
24 your government. However, does -- that does not rule out the right of the
25 head of state to proclaim somebody persona non grata if you make a move
Page 7726
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Page 7727
1 which is not strictly in keeping with your mandate or break a rule.
2 JUDGE MAY: The witness has dealt with this. Is there anything
3 you want to add to your previous answers, Ambassador?
4 THE WITNESS: I don't think so, Your Honour.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Okay. Just a few days after Mr. Walker was proclaimed persona non
7 grata, Madeleine Albright stated that in case he is withdrawn, the mission
8 would be withdrawn in its entirety. Since you were then chairman of the
9 OSCE and were authorised to appoint the head of the mission, could you
10 please tell me, what were the powers of Mrs. Albright then which gave her
11 the right to make such a statement?
12 A. Mrs. Albright had no right to give such a statement. I suppose
13 this was her personal opinion or assessment.
14 Q. All right. Could you please answer, then, why was it so important
15 to the OSCE or perhaps the then-administration of the US to insist on
16 Mr. Walker so much?
17 A. Mr. Milosevic, I am not here to respond for the American
18 administration. I have no information whatsoever about that. But I can
19 answer for myself, and I saw your decision on declaring Ambassador Walker
20 persona non grata as your first intent with respect to KVM to erode its
21 basis, to weaken it and to cripple us in the activities that we were going
22 to do. And I felt very strongly that if I was going to give in to this,
23 you would then have new demands the day after or a couple of days later
24 that I would have to answer to.
25 I would also like to remind you, Mr. Milosevic, that one of my
Page 7728
1 points was that you had not taken this -- your complaint with respect to
2 Ambassador Walker's behaviour in connection with the Racak massacre up
3 with me. You just made this decision on your own. I was chairman in
4 office of the OSCE. If you had something to complain about with respect
5 to Ambassador Walker's attitude, behaviour, statements, you should have
6 talked to me about it, and you didn't do that. This was something you did
7 on your own without consulting with me at all.
8 Q. All right. Do you remember, Mr. Vollebaek, that I insisted
9 precisely during that discussion that you should reinforce your mission to
10 the envisaged numbers? At that time, it had only one-third of the total
11 of envisaged staff, 1.300 as opposed to the planned 2.000?
12 A. Yes, that is quite correct. I do also remember that. And we
13 tried to do that.
14 Q. Therefore, I was asking you, as chairman of the OSCE when you were
15 talking to me, to reinforce your mission with an additional 700 people.
16 Second, you said yourself that I suggested -- of course I had no right to
17 instruct you, but I suggested that you appoint a new Head of Mission who
18 would be even-handed and objective, and Mr. Walker had proven himself to be
19 less than objective and I suggested that you appoint somebody else more
20 suited for the job.
21 So based on those two facts, or in view of those two facts, how
22 can you now claim that it was in our interest to diminish the importance
23 of your mission? Don't these facts prove quite the contrary, that we were
24 quite anxious to have this mission on the ground working in an unbiased
25 manner?
Page 7729
1 A. Mr. Milosevic, I think you might have liked to have a mission that
2 worked according to your own will and your own desire. I do not doubt
3 that. But every time there was an issue that was brought up that you
4 disagreed with or a complaint we had or an issue that showed that you were
5 not even-handed in treating the people of Kosovo, you made a complaint or
6 you made a protest.
7 And you have to remember that your suggestion of having a new head
8 of KVM and strengthening the KVM mission did not come as a result of a
9 conversation that you and I had talking about how can we make this more
10 efficient? How can we improve the working conditions for the KVM? This
11 came up in a long discussion. I think it lasted about three and a half
12 hours, if I don't remember wrongly, during a late night where I had to
13 rush down to Belgrade in order to safeguard the whole mission because you
14 one-sidedly, single-handedly, had decided to declare the head of the
15 mission persona non grata.
16 Q. All right. But you are well aware that just shortly before that,
17 NATO generals had visited me and asked me to withdraw that decision, and
18 we accepted that. And we accepted it precisely at your insistence because
19 of the understanding of the importance of your mission that we had. We
20 did consider it important. Is that correct or not?
21 A. Well, I'm grateful for your statement now, Mr. Milosevic. I was
22 not left with the impression that time that you saw the mission very
23 important and you were very forthcoming. As I recall our conversation at
24 that time, and I had a number of people along with me, it was a rather
25 difficult conversation. You tried all along to put on certain conditions
Page 7730
1 for the continued work that Mr. Walker should be doing.
2 Q. So not the mission but Mr. Walker in person; is that right?
3 A. Mr. Milosevic, as I have stated earlier, Mr. Walker was not
4 anybody. He was head of the KVM mission. He was, as I have stated
5 before, appointed by the OSCE, and you had, without consulting with us,
6 without presenting any complaints to us, decided to expel him.
7 Q. I understand enough, Mr. Vollebaek. Is it true that Mr. Walker
8 was personally chosen for the job by Madeleine Albright?
9 A. I have no idea, Mr. Milosevic, how the process in the United
10 States works for selecting representatives for international
11 organisations. The American administration came forward with Ambassador
12 Walker as a proposal in consultations with members of the OSCE. His
13 candidacy was accepted.
14 Q. All right. We have seen here a tape on which Holbrooke is making
15 a statement, saying that Madeleine Albright personally chose Mr. Walker as
16 head of the mission. So it's --
17 JUDGE MAY: The witness knows nothing about it. Now, let's move
18 on.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. The day before your arrival to Belgrade, you came on the 21st and
22 we had this meeting you mentioned, do you remember that Die Welt published
23 the following: "Walker was seeking ground for military intervention."
24 And a lot of other European press wrote about it and disputed his story
25 about Racak, his version of Racak. Do you remember that?
Page 7731
1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I've said earlier in this
2 cross-examination that these are the opinions of journalists, and they are
3 totally irrelevant to these proceedings.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Those are not opinions. This is
5 information published in many newspapers in the West, Mr. May. If you are
6 not allowing me to mention what the papers wrote about it, I will remind
7 you of what Gabriel Keller said, and he said the following in his
8 statement -- he was Ambassador Walker's deputy: "The political dimension
9 of the mission was too small. [In English] "[Previous translation
10 continues]... mission members choose from the beginning to adopt a very
11 aggressive behaviour with the official authorities. The potential
12 benefits of diplomacy were deliberately sacrificed. We never tried at the
13 upper level of the mission to associate the Yugoslavs to our work. In the
14 regional committees, such work was done, sometimes very successfully,
15 which proves it was not an impossible challenge. A growing number of the
16 mission members, national OSCE countries not belonging to NATO who did not
17 approve this behaviour felt more and more uncomfortable in a mission which
18 did not reflect the sensitivity of their countries."
19 [Interpretation] And then there is a very clear definition.
20 JUDGE MAY: Before you go on, let the witness answer.
21 You've heard what it's alleged that Mr. Keller said about the
22 attitude of the mission and the attitude of some of its members. Is that
23 a matter on which you can comment?
24 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, it's difficult for me to comment very
25 precisely on attitudes. As I said, I was head of the mission in the sense
Page 7732
1 that I was chairman of the OSCE. I visited the mission three times, and I
2 gave instructions to Ambassador Walker as the head of the mission.
3 My instructions were always that we should work with the Yugoslav
4 authorities to the large -- as much as possible. I made a point of that
5 when I came to Pristina, that I also saw the representatives of the
6 Yugoslav authorities, precisely to underline that the mission was there as
7 in agreement with the Yugoslav authorities, that we did not foresee Kosovo
8 breaking away from Yugoslavia. But I think it is fair to say that our
9 reports as we received them later on or as time went on, the reports
10 became more and more desperate and negative because there was a feeling on
11 the KVM side that there was no reciprocity in this attempt at cooperation.
12 But if you allow me, Your Honour, to revert to the beginning of
13 Mr. Milosevic's question, I'm not certain how this actually interlinks,
14 but --
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Yes. But, Mr. Vollebaek, if your answers continue to be so long,
17 Mr. May will completely bring my cross-examination to an end and I won't
18 have time to ask my next ten questions.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know, Mr. May. I wonder if
20 you can extend my time a little. We've had two statements from
21 Mr. Vollebaek, more than two hours of his explanations, and you gave me
22 just two hours for cross-examination. This is not 92 bis, this is
23 cross-examination of a live witness.
24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, it is, but the witness has not
25 taken an undue amount of time in explaining his answers, in my judgement.
Page 7733
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Page 7734
1 You, on the other hand, have asked fairly lengthy questions, which you
2 should bear in mind. Having regard to the timing, you can have another
3 quarter of an hour.
4 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, could I then comment on the Racak
5 massacre?
6 JUDGE MAY: If you would do it briefly, please.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, but I think it is important because it
8 seems to me that Mr. Milosevic --
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Please. I didn't ask you this.
11 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I didn't ask this question, not
13 yet at least. How can he --
14 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. My understanding was that
16 Mr. Milosevic related what he seems to think is a negative attitude from
17 the KVM side to the reports on the Racak massacre as he started out
18 referring to Die Welt.
19 I based myself on the report that we got from the Finnish forensic
20 team, which was quite, in my view, clear. And even though, Your Honour,
21 I'm not supposed to ask the accused questions, if I had been allowed to
22 ask questions, I would ask him why he then didn't -- if he was so sure
23 what happened in Racak, why didn't he immediately allow us to have a
24 forensic mission in? Why did he delay this so long?
25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.
Page 7735
1 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. I will answer. We didn't stall, first of all. And secondly, the
4 forensic team from Finland did not, at the end of the day, issue a report
5 any different from the reports of the Belarussian forensics. And it was
6 not to be expected that a forensic report could delete, erase a wound or
7 something. The only possibility was that something would be added. And
8 there were no controversial issues or discrepancies between the reports of
9 one and the other forensic team.
10 I would like to ask you something different. Do you agree with
11 this: "European diplomats working with the OSCE claim that it was
12 betrayed -- [In English] [Microphone not activated]. American agents have
13 immediately helped to train the Kosovo Liberation Army before NATO bombing
14 of Yugoslavia. The disclosure angered some European diplomats who said
15 this had undermined moves for a political solution to the conflict between
16 Serbs and Albanians," et cetera.
17 JUDGE MAY: Who are you quoting now? Is that Ambassador Keller?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am now quoting Sunday Times, dated
19 12th --
20 JUDGE MAY: No. This is -- this is the opinion of a newspaper.
21 We are not going to have that. There is no need for the witness to
22 comment on what the newspaper says. Yes.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. All right. Do you remember, to cut a long story short, do you
25 remember how you assessed Walker's statement with regard to Racak at the
Page 7736
1 time? Do you remember that on the 22nd of January, the day after your
2 discussions with me, you stated that Walker's statement was hasty rather
3 than rational? That was reported by France press from Pristina on the
4 22nd of January as your words. Is that true?
5 A. Not exactly, Mr. Milosevic. I said that they were emotional, and
6 I think I also said that in his capacity as head of the KVM, ideally he
7 should probably not have made such hasty statements. But I would also
8 like to underline, Mr. Milosevic, that I added that it was only human, and
9 I would say almost sympathetic that you made strong statements being faced
10 with the massacre like the one we saw in Racak. And I said, as far as I
11 recall, that I would not exclude myself having made such statements in a
12 similar situation.
13 Q. All right. But at that time, were you at least partially aware of
14 the fact that a number of KLA members were killed in Racak on the
15 occasion? Then, on the 22nd or 21st of January. Did you know it then,
16 that a certain number of KLA members were killed in Racak?
17 A. Mr. Milosevic, I adhere to the report that I got from the Finnish
18 forensic mission. I did not make judgements or statements until after
19 that. I was told that those who were being killed in what has become to
20 be known as the Racak massacre were civilians.
21 Q. Mr. Vollebaek, since you were chief of the OSCE, do you know that
22 in the report of the Verification Mission of the OSCE of the 16th of
23 January, the day after Racak, it said that eight KLA members were killed
24 in Racak? Do you know that this is written in the report of the OSCE
25 Verification Mission of the 16th of January?
Page 7737
1 JUDGE MAY: What's the relevance of this to the witness's
2 evidence?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The relevance is this: If something
4 like that is written in the report of the next day, the report of the OSCE
5 Verification Mission itself, this at least brings into doubt the claim
6 that there was some kind of execution of civilians. And secondly, it also
7 puts into question the claim that it was not a clash between the KLA and
8 the police but arbitrary killing of Albanian civilians. This piece of
9 information at least brings it into doubt.
10 JUDGE MAY: The witness has given his evidence about this. He was
11 not responsible for any statements. You've cross-examined extensively a
12 number of witnesses, including Mr. Walker, upon them. There seems little
13 point going over old ground again.
14 Now, you've got five minutes left with this witness if you have
15 any other topics you wish to ask him about.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Five minutes, Mr. May? You gave me
17 two hours to begin with and then a further 15 minutes. If I have used up
18 one and a half hours until the break and half an hour after the break now,
19 that leaves me at least the 15 minutes that you allotted me a moment ago.
20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Move on.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Now, please, did you then believe that old people, women, and
24 children were executed there?
25 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. I'm going to confer.
Page 7738
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll go on from Racak. Now, you've got another
3 ten minutes if you've got any more questions.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have many more questions,
5 Mr. May.
6 JUDGE MAY: All right. You've got ten minutes to put them in.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You said --
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. I've got used
10 to this kind of treatment.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. You said in your statement, among other things, that you could not
13 allow the fact that in the presence of the international forces, something
14 take place that would constitute a crime and which the international
15 forces would stand and watch taking place impotently.
16 A. That's right, Mr. Milosevic. I don't think I used the word
17 "forces" because they were monitors, observers.
18 Q. All right. Tell me, then, how come, from the aspects of your
19 position in 1999 as chairman of the OSCE and your position as foreign
20 minister do you explain and interpret the fact that in the presence of the
21 international forces from June until the end of 1999, over 360.000
22 non-Albanians were expelled from Kosovo and that tens of thousands of Serb
23 houses were burnt down, and that several thousand people were kidnapped
24 and killed before KFOR's very eyes and that 107 Serbian churches were
25 destroyed all during that time and before the very eyes of the --
Page 7739
1 JUDGE MAY: Now, there must be a question here, but first of all,
2 we will have to ask the ambassador if he can help with this, the position
3 from June 1999 until the -- June 1999 until the end of the year.
4 Can you help us with that, what happened in Kosovo then?
5 THE WITNESS: Well, from June 1999 until the end of the year, we
6 moved back in, so to say. I mean the international community moved back
7 in, the OSCE moved back in, and we tried to start all over again. We
8 started -- we tried -- the OSCE had, at that time, as its main
9 responsibility, democracy building. We were trying to help in creating
10 various democratic institutions; press, media, the police. That was our
11 task. But it was a very difficult task.
12 We started the police training school.
13 Of course there was absolutely nothing more we wanted than to have
14 everyone moving back to their places, but this was very difficult. And
15 there is no doubt that there were wrongdoings, incidents, criminal acts
16 from the Kosovo Albanian side that we reacted to and protested against.
17 And it was very much against our will that the Serb population were faced
18 with difficulties.
19 As I said, the first thing I did was to go to a Serb monastery, to
20 stay overnight to try to show that we wanted them to stay and that they
21 should be protected. And as you will know, Your Honour, that there still
22 are KFOR soldiers protecting the Serb population.
23 But I -- if I understand Mr. Milosevic correctly, he seems to
24 imply that these wrongdoings undo his own wrongdoings, and I would
25 strongly protest that. And I would again repeat, as I said earlier, that
Page 7740
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Page 7741
1 if there had been more forthcoming cooperation from Mr. Milosevic's side
2 earlier in that year, all this could have been avoided.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do you mean to say that we accepted the occupation of Kosovo and
5 Yugoslavia in order to avoid having a war break out between NATO and
6 Yugoslavia? Is that what you want to say?
7 A. Mr. Milosevic, this reminds me of the 1st of March, 1999. We
8 never talked about an occupation. I talked about a military presence upon
9 your invitation.
10 Q. On the basis of my invitation? Well, you asked me to invite you,
11 Yugoslavia to invite you to occupy Yugoslavia? Does that seem to you to
12 be logical, that anybody could do anything like that?
13 A. Your Honour, I think I stated several times that I did not mean an
14 occupation.
15 Q. All right. You call that by a different name. I don't know how
16 to organise my time when I have just a few more minutes left, but at the
17 start of your statement, you said that in 1993, you came to see me, to ask
18 me to use my influence with the Srpska Krajina and the leadership of
19 Srpska Krajina to support your proposal for negotiations to take place in
20 Norway and that those negotiations did in fact take place; isn't that
21 right?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Now, do you have any knowledge of any international or internal
24 initiative for achieving peace which Serbia and I personally did not
25 support throughout all those years?
Page 7742
1 A. Your Honour, I don't think I'm in a position to answer that
2 question.
3 Q. All right. Very well. Now, in addition to the explanations you
4 gave, you explained one point that seems to me to be absolutely fantastic,
5 to hear it and to comment on it, and it is this: It would appear that we
6 supported those peace efforts - and let me say that we supported all peace
7 efforts and peace was the only issue we dealt with when it came to Croatia
8 and Bosnia - in order that Croatia could not go to war on two fronts and
9 not in order to achieve peace between Republika Srpska and Republic of
10 Srpska Krajina. And you even said that Serbia -- the Serbs should cease
11 their military operations against Croatia.
12 Now, as you were in Zagreb at the time, do you know that in 1993,
13 for example, and even much before that, there were no military operations
14 on the part of Serbs against Croatia but that they banned access to their
15 territory, the territory in which they had been living for several
16 centuries and that that operation of theirs was called at the time
17 colloquially "the log revolution." As you know, logs are not of an
18 offensive means. So do you know that there were no military operations by
19 the Serbs against Croatia at that time when you were in Zagreb? Are you
20 aware of that? Do you know that that was so?
21 A. Your Honour, I am prepared to answer questions relating to the
22 meeting I had with Mr. Milosevic in 1993, but I find it difficult to
23 answer this question.
24 I did not, Mr. Milosevic, go into any kind of definition of
25 military action between the government of Croatia and the Krajina Republic
Page 7743
1 in 1993 because this was not the question I was asked when I answered the
2 question about the meeting you and I had. The question I was asked was
3 whether I had met you before I met you as a foreign minister, and I told
4 about that.
5 What I felt was important for this process that you now deal with,
6 namely the Kosovo crisis, was your attitude toward Muslims, because I
7 vividly remember, maybe because I still have bad conscience for not
8 strongly protesting what you said, that you said that we -- you would
9 assist me. There were -- probably we cannot call it a war then if that's
10 according to your wish, we can drop that terminology, but there were
11 military activities that made the government of Croatia busy in trying to
12 fend off the Serbs in Krajina at the same time as there was fighting going
13 on with the Muslims in Bosnia. And I very well remember that you said
14 that you would tell the -- or advise the Serbs in Knin to go to Norway to
15 go on with the negotiations precisely because you thought it was proper
16 for the Croats to fight the Muslims. And as I said earlier today, you
17 told me that -- and your words -- I'm still quite sure that the words
18 were, "Mr. Vollebaek, you have to agree with me we cannot have a Muslim
19 republic in Europe." And of course I should have stopped you there. I
20 did not. So I did not accept your statement but I did not protest
21 strongly either, which I suppose I should have done.
22 Q. Mr. Vollebaek -- Mr. Vollebaek, as you know very well, the number
23 of Muslims living in Yugoslavia, and as you know full well that not a
24 single one of them all time during those crises and wars were mistreated,
25 expelled, killed or arrested in Serbia, and as you know full well that we
Page 7744
1 cooperated and had over 70.000 Muslim refugees in Serbia from
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that we cooperated with different Muslim enclaves such
3 as the one in Bihac region to which we sent flour and corn and food
4 generally, the one that got the most number of votes for the president of
5 Bosnia, Fikret Avdic, that's where he came from, as you know all this --
6 JUDGE MAY: What is the question? The witness -- the witness says
7 that is what you said. So any argument is not to the point.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. May.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. It is precisely unbelievable and impossible, because we never
11 spoke about a Muslim state, rather, the endeavours that were being made to
12 create a Muslim extremist state. And if you recall, I mentioned to you on
13 the occasion exclusively Muslim extremists. I spoke about Muslim
14 extremists and not Muslims, because the vast large portion of Serbian
15 inhabitants are Muslims. And I quoted Izetbegovic's declaration - and I
16 don't have to quote it, it has been published in book form - in which
17 Izetbegovic says that among the Muslim religion and non-Muslim societies
18 and institutions, there cannot be peaceful coexistence.
19 I spoke to you about the danger of Islamic fundamentalism, and
20 that has been proven to be true, because over 6.000 Mujahedin --
21 JUDGE MAY: Just stop for a moment. Let the witness answer.
22 What is being put, Mr. Vollebaek, is that what the accused spoke
23 to you about was Muslim extremism and Muslim fundamentalism. Do you agree
24 with that or not?
25 THE WITNESS: I do not recall that the word "extremist" or
Page 7745
1 "fundamentalist" was used. I know the word "Muslim republic" was used but
2 I do not recall that the word "extremist" was used.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: More specifically, Ambassador, I understand
4 Mr. Milosevic to be saying that he did not say to you that, "We cannot
5 have a Muslim state in Europe."
6 THE WITNESS: I hear him saying that also. My recollection from
7 that conversation, and I have gone over that several times in my memory,
8 is that he said "a Muslim republic in Europe."
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May --
10 JUDGE MAY: One more question.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's difficult for me, Mr. May, to
12 ask just one more question.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. But do you not think that today - and I'm asking you, Mr.
15 Vollebaek - in especially in light of Clinton's statement prior to the
16 bombing of Yugoslavia, which justifies -- which he justifies by the
17 alleged massacres in Racak and mentions the civilians, women, children,
18 and so on and so forth, and you know that none of that is true, that this
19 was a fabrication in a very dirty way, a reason for war, a pretext for war
20 and aggression which NATO launched against a European country, in this
21 case against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and created -- which led
22 to very serious consequences?
23 So do you not think that this is a fabrication, especially as
24 throughout the world it has been assessed that this event in Racak was
25 abused for those purposes? And what Clinton stated on that occasion has
Page 7746
1 been seen not to be true now and was in fact a pretext. Is that so or
2 not?
3 A. Your Honour, I'm not certain what I'm going to say.
4 JUDGE MAY: Was Racak used as a pretext for the NATO bombing and,
5 as it's alleged, aggression?
6 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, not. Racak took place on the 15th
7 or 16th of January, 15th of January. The bombing started on the 21st of
8 March. We had a number of incidents that took place afterwards. And
9 Racak took place. I suppose that I have not heard anyone, Mr. Milosevic,
10 to kind of pretend that this was a kind of setup, that someone put people
11 there to be killed in order to have a NATO bombing. That's the first time
12 I hear that.
13 JUDGE MAY: No.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Allow me just to quote, please, just
15 Clinton's words.
16 JUDGE MAY: No. We've been over this.
17 Now, Mr. Wladimiroff, have you any questions of the witness?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, please. I should like to
19 quote --
20 JUDGE MAY: No, Mr. Milosevic. You've had your time. You have
21 had rather more than you have. Much of it has been spent arguing. Now,
22 let us move on.
23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Questioned by Mr. Wladimiroff:
25 Q. Ambassador, in your testimony, you told the Court about your
Page 7747
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Page 7748
1 meetings with the accused, and when you were asked about the role of the
2 accused when military affairs were discussed, you told the Court that
3 military or generals were present on the Yugoslav side. You also
4 testified that the accused discussed these issues and made decisions. Do
5 you remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did the military not participate in these discussions? And I mean
8 the military on the Yugoslav side. Or did they participate?
9 A. I do not recall that they participated actively. They -- I -- on
10 my side, I normally spoke, and on Mr. Milosevic's side, it was normally he
11 that spoke. We had at least, as I recall, on the 21st of January there
12 was a -- an intermission or it was a break, and the Yugoslav side
13 withdrew, I suppose for consultations. But in my presence, as I recall
14 it, they rarely spoke. Maybe they answered precise questions about
15 something, but I remember that my conversation was with Mr. Milosevic.
16 Q. All right. Were there military on your part?
17 A. Yes. I do not recall everyone that was participating. I think
18 normally we had only civilians, but there might have been some military
19 advisors. I do not recall that.
20 Q. Did they participate in the conversation or was it you who did the
21 discussing?
22 A. I did the talking with Mr. Milosevic. As I said, it was more or
23 less he and I. I might also ask for some clarification, probably, but the
24 direct conversation was between Mr. Milosevic and myself.
25 Q. Do you consider yourself an expert on military affairs or were
Page 7749
1 these conversations on a more superficial level that didn't need any
2 specific military knowledge so you could do it yourself, Milosevic could
3 do it himself?
4 A. I am absolutely no military expert, and we had mainly, I would
5 say, political discussions. But some of the political issues were based,
6 then, on what were kind of military issues since there were incidents that
7 happened. But I think that most of these issues could be dealt with
8 without having a lot of military knowledge.
9 Q. Thank you. I come back to the telephone conversation of the 24th
10 of March, 1999. You told the Court that the Rambouillet talks had broken
11 up, and you were heading off society with having an armed conflict. You
12 told the Court you had a conversation with Solana, the Secretary-General
13 of NATO. You did not tell the Court what this conversation was about.
14 Can you tell the Court what Solana told you?
15 A. Well, I do not recall the conversation as such, but I, in this
16 period, after the withdrawal of the KVM, I saw things deteriorating, and
17 as the NATO foreign minister, I was informed about the discussions in NATO
18 about a possible armed intervention from the NATO side.
19 I felt it was my duty to try to avoid this in my capacity as
20 chairman of the OSCE, and I had a number of discussions with my advisors,
21 with the troika, if there was anything that we could do.
22 Q. But that's not what I asked you.
23 A. No, but I --
24 Q. What I'm asking you is do you remember what Solana told you?
25 A. I asked him if it was okay for me to call Mr. Milosevic and tell
Page 7750
1 him that there was another chance, if NATO would agree to start over again
2 if Mr. Milosevic would agree to do so. And his answer was yes, he
3 supported the conversation I had with Mr. Milosevic.
4 Q. And in your call with Mr. Milosevic, you passed this message from
5 Solana to Milosevic?
6 A. I don't think I passed a message from Solana, but this was a
7 message from the chairman of the OSCE to Mr. Milosevic. But I suppose
8 that I also told him that I could make my influence in NATO so that I
9 could go back to NATO and say I had this conversation with Milosevic, he
10 was willing to talk to us, he was willing to cooperate, and that would
11 have an impact in Brussels.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A technical question. May I ask the
14 witness a technical question?
15 JUDGE MAY: No.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I wanted to ask him
17 whether he's sure he talked to me on the 24th.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing re-arising. Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE MAY: We will ask the question which was put at the end.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE MAY: Are you sure that you spoke to Mr. Milosevic on the
22 24th?
23 A. Well, when you are on a telephone conversation, I suppose there
24 are certain limits to what you can be assured sure of. But I recognised
25 his voice, and I was told that I was put through to Mr. Milosevic, and I
Page 7751
1 had people in my office witnessing the conversation. There's even a
2 report in the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs from the conversation.
3 Well, I assumed. I assumed up until today that I spoke to him on the 24th
4 of March, yes.
5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. No. We've taken this as far as we can.
6 Ambassador, thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your
7 evidence. It's now concluded. I'm sorry. Judge Robinson had a question.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ambassador, earlier you, in commenting on the
9 statement that you attributed to Mr. Milosevic, that he said that, "We
10 cannot have a Muslim republic in Europe," you say that you regretted not
11 having answered him immediately. Would you explain that regret.
12 A. I thought that this was a statement that violated my sense of
13 human rights because it was made, as I understood it at that time, as a
14 statement against one group of people in general, and specifically in
15 Europe. And that was the reason why I thought that I should have
16 protested or told him that I disagreed with him.
17 However, at that time, I didn't feel that it was the place for
18 such a discussion of principle because we were in a hurry to avoid a
19 conflict in another part of the former Yugoslavia, and I needed him to put
20 pressure on the Serbs in Knin. So that's why I did not at that time do
21 what I otherwise would have done, namely said that I disagreed with his
22 attitude.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Ambassador. You're free to go.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
Page 7752
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, while we're waiting for --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Ryneveld.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Your Honours, while we're waiting for
5 the next witness to resume - I understand that Mr. Saxon will resume - I
6 wonder if I might raise one issue concerning Mr. Crosland, who is on our
7 witness list to testify on Wednesday, circumstances and timing permitting.
8 My note is that on the 29th of May, we applied and indicated that
9 we wanted to have Mr. Crosland bis'd in part, and that statement was
10 provided to the Chamber on the 29th. In view of the fact that he will be
11 testifying in a day or two, I wonder whether the Court might review that
12 and give me an indication at your convenience so that I know whether to
13 prepare him for a live witness or for a 92 bis. I have a summary now for
14 a live one, but I would have to change the summary to a bis witness.
15 That's the only thing I want to raise as soon as possible.
16 JUDGE MAY: Who is going to give evidence next after this witness?
17 Who is coming?
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Witness K25. Mr. Nice will be handling it.
19 JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll certainly look at the evidence of
20 Mr. Crosland.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Aliu, thank you for coming back. Your evidence,
25 of course, is subject to the same declaration that you made on Friday.
Page 7753
1 WITNESS: SHUKRI ALIU [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examined by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]
4 Q. Mr. Aliu, on Friday before we broke, we were discussing the
5 creation of what you refer to as the joint staff or joint command for
6 Kosovo which met in Pristina on a weekly basis starting in 1998. And you
7 also told the Trial Chamber about the formation of similar municipal
8 staffs in the various different municipalities around Kosovo.
9 I'd like to show you some documents, if I may, and we'll start
10 with what is referred to as the OTP Exhibit number -- reference number
11 K1280 if I could ask the usher's assistance, please, to distribute copies
12 around the courtroom and place one on the ELMO.
13 MR. SAXON: Perhaps if the -- perhaps if a copy of the English
14 version could be placed on the ELMO so that everyone watching can follow
15 along.
16 Q. And, Mr. Aliu, if I could direct your attention, please, to the
17 first page of the Serbian version. Can you find that, please?
18 A. I don't have the Serbian copy. Thank you.
19 Q. This is a document. It says: "To Defence Departments/Sections,"
20 in large letters. It's dated apparently 28th of July, it looks to be
21 1998.
22 A. 1998, yes.
23 Q. And first of all, I'd like to draw your attention to the bottom of
24 that page that you're looking at. Do you see a signature at the bottom of
25 that page, Mr. Aliu?
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Page 7755
1 A. Yes. Yes, there's a signature at the foot of the page.
2 Q. Do you recognise that signature?
3 A. Yes, I recognise it.
4 Q. And whose signature is that?
5 A. It's the signature of the chief of the defence secretariat, Petar
6 Ilic.
7 Q. This was the man who was your supervisor for a number of years
8 during the 1990s; is that right?
9 A. Yes. Yes. This was the man who was my chief.
10 Q. And if we can just take a look at the text on this page. It
11 starts out -- it says: "Subject: Instructions for the defence of
12 inhabited areas." And then the first paragraph begins: "The joint
13 command for Kosovo and Metohija has issued instructions for the defence of
14 inhabited areas from the activities of Siptar terrorists which also
15 prescribe the obligations of the SMO and its organisational units: the
16 defence administration, departments and sections."
17 This joint command that is being referred to in this document, is
18 this the same joint command for Kosovo that you talked to us about on
19 Friday?
20 A. Yes, it's that command.
21 Q. And then further down on the same page, it says the following:
22 "We would point out that the joint command for Kosovo and Metohija has
23 determined a new composition of municipal defence staffs and in addition
24 to representatives of local self-governed units, the MUP, the SO, the IO,
25 and the VJ, chiefs of defence departments and heads of defence sections
Page 7756
1 have also become members of these staffs."
2 Can you explain to the Court which are the municipal defence
3 staffs that are being discussed here?
4 A. This is about the commands of the staffs or sections in the
5 municipalities of Kosova, and there are 28 of them. In these commands of
6 the municipal staffs, leaders of the sections or the municipal
7 secretariats were supposed to join up as members.
8 Q. All right. And just as on Friday you described -- you told the
9 Trial Chamber of a number of persons who were members of the joint staff
10 for the province of Kosovo. According to this document, would
11 representatives of similar institutions and organisations be members of
12 the joint staff -- joint staffs - excuse me - at the municipal level?
13 A. No. These were not members of the joint -- members of the joint
14 staff. The members of the joint staff were only those people I listed on
15 Friday.
16 Q. I'm sorry. I think my question wasn't clear. The people who you
17 listed on Friday were, according to your testimony, members of the joint
18 staff for the province of Kosovo that met in Pristina. In this document,
19 we see Petar Ilic talking about or pointing out, to use Petar Ilic's
20 language, that the joint command for Kosovo and Metohija has determined a
21 new composition of municipal defence staffs. And then Petar Ilic goes on
22 to explain which institutions those members might represent.
23 My question simply is: From this document, are you able to tell
24 whether the composition of the municipal defence staffs, in terms of the
25 different institutions that were represented on the municipal defence
Page 7757
1 staffs, were roughly similar to the different institutions represented on
2 the joint command for Kosovo as a whole?
3 A. These staffs were merely for the municipalities, and these joint
4 staff were appointed by municipal assemblies, and these municipal
5 assemblies were made up besides the municipal staff like the municipal
6 chairman, people like the chairman of the secretariat or the defence
7 section.
8 Q. All right. And who would these municipal staffs respond to?
9 A. These responded to the municipal assemblies and the chairmen of
10 the municipalities.
11 Q. I'd like to ask you to turn the page, please.
12 MR. SAXON: And maybe I can impose on the usher again. I'm sorry.
13 Perhaps you could remain at the ELMO again for a moment.
14 Q. If you could turn to the very next page. If you could look at it
15 on the ELMO as well. The very next page says, at the top, "Joint Command
16 for Kosovo and Metohija," and then it says, "Instructions for the Defence
17 of Inhabited Places." And then we see the word "(Temporary)," and then in
18 the middle of the page, it says, "July 1998." Do you see that language?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber why that word "Temporary" is
21 there?
22 A. It's temporary because the units that operated in the zones
23 mentioned knew that they would -- later they would be sent back to where
24 they worked before.
25 Q. So -- and at what point would these individuals be sent back to
Page 7758
1 where they were before? What was going on at the time that required the
2 issuance of temporary instructions?
3 A. These temporary instructions were issued to all the secretariats
4 and defence departments to carrying out -- from carrying out their
5 military duties.
6 Q. So were instructions such as these issued during times of war or
7 crisis?
8 A. In times of war and in times of crisis.
9 Q. All right. If you could turn the page again to what is on page 3
10 of the English version. I'm not sure which page it is on your version.
11 But you'll see the number 2 followed by a small "a". Do you see that
12 subsection, Mr. Aliu? Section 2a. Do you see that? That section is
13 entitled, "The Composition and Tasks of the Civil Protection and Systems
14 for Monitoring and Reporting." Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If you -- if we go to the next page, on the English version page
17 4, there is the number 1 in the middle of page 4 and the following text
18 appears: "General purpose CZ," which I believe stands for Civilian
19 Protection Units, "administer first aid, rescue people from ruins,
20 extinguish initial and smaller fires, clear barricades, organise the
21 washing of streets, etc."
22 Is this a fair description of the activities of Civilian
23 Protection Units during times of war and crisis in Kosovo?
24 A. Excuse me. These are Civil Protection Units whose duties were, in
25 fact, first aid, saving people from ruins and from fire. And in times of
Page 7759
1 war -- or in 1990, they later -- they were armed, although they were
2 forbidden to carry arms under the Geneva Conventions.
3 Q. All right. Let's turn the page again. On page 5 of the English
4 version we see, about halfway down the page, the number 3, and we see a
5 line that says, in capital letters: "The Task and Grouping of Forces."
6 And if we scan down that section to the -- to the fifth paragraph in that
7 section, there is a phrase at the very end of that paragraph that I want
8 to ask you about.
9 You see a phrase there that says "and continuity of commanding."
10 Do you see that phrase, Mr. Aliu?
11 A. On the fifth page? I can't --
12 Q. It may be on the 6th page.
13 A. Which one?
14 Q. Of your -- the fifth paragraph after the number 3. At the end of
15 the paragraph, we see the words "and continuity of commanding."
16 A. Paragraph 3. Please, can you ask the question again?
17 Q. All right. Do you see these words "continuity of commanding"?
18 JUDGE KWON: I think it's fifth paragraph on page 6. Page 6 of
19 the Serbian version.
20 MR. SAXON: That's correct.
21 Q. If you look at page 6, the fifth paragraph down, the last words in
22 that paragraph say, in English, "continuity of commanding." Do you see
23 that? "Neprekidnost komandovanja." I apologise for my horrible Serbian.
24 Do you see those words, Mr. Aliu?
25 A. Those words that you mention are not here.
Page 7760
1 Q. Well, if you look at page 6 and you look at this paragraph - and
2 perhaps the usher can help me - look at the last two words in that
3 paragraph. Do you see those words?
4 A. Yes. Yes, the last two words.
5 Q. Can you tell us, please, what does principle or idea of continuity
6 of commanding means?
7 A. It means continuing all the operations, all the duties, and
8 keeping them going until they are completely performed, until all these
9 military duties have been performed.
10 Q. And would military units be able to function in wartime without
11 continuity of command?
12 A. No, they would not.
13 Q. If you could, please, take a look at the very last paragraph on
14 the same page, Mr. Aliu, where the text says the following: "The forces
15 for operations inside the town are primarily determined by demographic
16 composition. In ethnically clean Serbian settlements and zones, the
17 organisation of defence is easier, while in mixed ones it is complex and
18 has to be organised by apartment blocks. If that is not possible, then
19 citizens should be evacuated into the ethnically clean zones."
20 Do you see what I've just read to you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us, please, when this passage talks about citizens
23 being evacuated into ethnically clean zones, which citizens is it talking
24 about, if you know?
25 A. This is only about evacuating Serbian citizens, who were very few
Page 7761
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Page 7762
1 in number. And they had to be evacuated into areas with a mainly Serbian
2 population, whereas in Serbian populated areas, they were totally secure
3 and there was no need for any evacuation.
4 Q. All right. And if you could also, please, turn to -- I believe
5 it's on the next page. You'll see the letter 5, and you'll see the word
6 "Commanding" in large letters. And in the second paragraph on that page,
7 we see the following: "The staff functionally ties together and unites
8 all the defence structures (the VJ reserve, the MUP, the CZ --" or the
9 civilian protection -- "enterprises and citizens) as 'the MUP reserve.'"
10 Can we take from this passage that the joint staff for Kosovo or
11 for each municipality ties together and unites all the different defence
12 structures and units that would be mobilised during wartime?
13 A. Yes. Yes, of course.
14 Q. All right.
15 MR. SAXON: I would now tender, Your Honours, that document into
16 evidence. That document could be removed now from the ELMO and from the
17 witness's table.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 245.
19 MR. SAXON: I will have to depend once again on Mr. Usher for
20 another document. This is a document that has OTP reference number K1282.
21 And again if the Serbian version could be handed to the witness and the
22 English version placed on the ELMO, I would be very grateful.
23 Q. This is a document of which the date is unclear, at least in the
24 English translation. 28 July nineteen nine something, from the Pristina
25 defence administration.
Page 7763
1 A. This is from 1998.
2 Q. From 1998. Thank you. It's addressed to the chiefs of --
3 A. It's not very clear.
4 Q. All right. We'll look at it. First of all, can you take a look
5 at the signature again, Mr. Aliu? It's on the document. You might have
6 to turn the page. Can you recognise that signature?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Whose signature is it?
9 A. It's Petar Ilic's signature.
10 Q. So if we go back to the first page, the document is addressed to
11 the chiefs of defence departments and heads of defence sections. And
12 below that, from 1 to 29. And then in the first paragraph, it says:
13 "Pursuant to the Instructions on the Defence of Inhabited Areas issued by
14 the joint command for Kosovo and Metohija, and with the objective of the
15 engagement of Civilian Protection and Monitoring and Reporting Service
16 personnel and performance of their tasks, I hereby issue the following."
17 And then we see the word "Order" and a series of paragraphs after that.
18 My question for you is if you can just briefly explain, who is
19 Petar Ilic providing orders to, and based on what?
20 A. On the basis of this document, the head of the provincial defence
21 secretariat, Petar Ilic, is giving orders to all the communal staff, all
22 the municipal staffs in all the territory of Kosova. And he also gives an
23 order to the monitoring and reporting service.
24 Q. And it says in the very first line: "Pursuant to the Instructions
25 on the Defence of Inhabited Areas issued by the Joint Command." Are those
Page 7764
1 orders pursuant to the instructions that we looked at a few minutes
2 ago?
3 A. This is about the orders that we were looking at a short time ago
4 and the tasks facing the municipal staffs.
5 MR. SAXON: I would now offer this document into evidence, please,
6 and I would ask Ms. Graham if she would help me with --
7 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 246.
8 MR. SAXON: The next document has OTP reference number K1283.
9 Q. Mr. Aliu, if you could take a look at this document, please. It's
10 dated the 30th of July, 1998, Pristina. Do you recognise the signature at
11 the end of this document? Take a look at the back page, please.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The very back page. Take a look at the signature.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Whose signature is that?
16 A. This signature is the same person. It's Petar Ilic, the head of
17 the defence secretariat.
18 Q. If you would go back to the first page, please. The document is
19 addressed to "Regional Organ of the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Cekic
20 personally, Belgrade." And below that, it says, "Guidelines for the
21 defence of inhabited areas issued by the Joint Command for Kosovo and
22 Metohija." Below that, we see extract from the guidelines referring to
23 the obligations of the Federal Ministry of Defence.
24 Who is Petar Ilic sending this information to?
25 A. He's sending this information to the Serbian defence authorities
Page 7765
1 in Belgrade and refers once again to the guidelines of the Defence of
2 inhabited areas and states that it's been issued by the joint command.
3 Q. Now --
4 A. It was brought -- this is about the orders being issued by the
5 joint command.
6 Q. All right. And just a quick question.
7 A. Excuse me. This document is encoded and is very urgent.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Aliu. Just to move more quickly, the Federal
9 Ministry of Defence that received this message from Mr. Ilic, was this
10 office the superior of Mr. Ilic?
11 A. Yes. It was Mr. Ilic's superior authority.
12 MR. SAXON: I would now offer this document into evidence, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 247.
14 MR. SAXON: I have one more document I'd like to show the witness.
15 This document has OTP reference number K2685.
16 Q. Mr. Aliu, you might want to turn the page and look actually at the
17 second page of the document. This document is dated 2 November 1998. It
18 is also signed by Mr. Petar Ilic on the last page.
19 On page 2, we see it's directed to the Federal Ministry of
20 Defence, sector for civilian defence, to Lieutenant General Geza Farkas
21 personally, Belgrade. And then it says in the first and second
22 paragraphs: "... we would like to inform you of the following:
23 "- in our communication strictly confidential no. 80-10/3, we
24 requested the Command of the 3rd Army to secure for us arms and ammunition
25 for all the units that are being formed and developed by the departments
Page 7766
1 and sections on the territory of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and
2 Metohija as follows: civil defence detachments - for 1.665 military
3 conscripts, communications units - 423, Monitoring and Reporting - 1.179,
4 civilian protection - 3.365 members, or a total of 6.632."
5 Mr. Aliu, during 1998, while you were still working in the
6 Civilian Protection Unit, did members of that unit receive arms?
7 A. I will tell you a detail.
8 Q. I would like you to answer my question, Mr. Aliu.
9 A. Very quickly, yes. Yes. They received weapons, and I myself saw
10 members of the Civilian Protection Units being armed by members of the
11 army. And you can see here very clearly that the Civilian Protection
12 Units here are armed.
13 Q. Mr. Aliu, did all of the members of the Civilian Protection Units
14 receive arms?
15 A. All the ranks of the Civil Protection Units received weapons. And
16 in the municipal assemblies and the municipal secretariats, they all
17 received weapons. And that's what I said on the first day.
18 Q. Mr. Aliu, did Serbs and Albanians receive weapons?
19 A. No. The Albanians never received weapons. And indeed, they were
20 all disarmed in 1987 and had to pay large sums in compensation. And these
21 were only levelled against the Albanian population.
22 Q. Mr. 1998, did you ever see weapons brought to Kosovo and
23 distributed? Yes or no.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And where was that?
Page 7767
1 A. This was in the defence secretariat, in the command of the Army
2 Corps, and the arms were submitted by a man named Delibasic.
3 Q. And how were the weapons brought there?
4 A. They were brought in trucks to the command and then they were
5 distributed from the command, it seems to me, in small chests.
6 Q. Who did these trucks belong to?
7 A. The trucks belonged to the Yugoslav army.
8 Q. Did you see the weapons being unloaded and distributed?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What kinds of weapons were distributed?
11 A. Automatic rifles and semi-automatics.
12 Q. Who were these weapons distributed to?
13 A. Only to the Serbs.
14 MR. SAXON: I would now tender this document into evidence, Your
15 Honours.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 248.
17 MR. SAXON: And my last question for this witness -- my last two
18 questions.
19 Q. Mr. Aliu, did your boss, Petar Ilic, ever tell you what might
20 happen to the Albanian population in Kosovo if attacks by Albanian
21 terrorists escalated there?
22 A. If the number of attacks by Albanians increased -- they weren't
23 terrorist attacks, I must say, they were merely protecting their own homes
24 -- if they happened, all the Albanians would have to go to Albania across
25 the Accursed Mountains.
Page 7768
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Page 7769
1 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I have nothing further for
2 this witness. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now.
4 MR. NICE: I was told that there was a matter of concern about a
5 protected witness, K32.
6 JUDGE MAY: No, not that I know of. If there is, we will deal
7 with it tomorrow.
8 MR. NICE: Thank you.
9 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now.
10 Mr. Aliu, could you be back, please, at 9.00 tomorrow morning. I
11 think I'm right. I will be informed by the registrar if that's the time.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Nine o'clock, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MAY: Nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
14 Yes, Mr. Milosevic, very quickly.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just some technical questions,
16 Mr. May. You needn't worry.
17 The instructions for the defence of settlements, there's no end to
18 that. Now, is that a mistake? In my copy, the copy I have received -- or
19 doesn't it have an end to it? Because these other documents, the other
20 papers, I see that they were interviewed and they had signatures.
21 I'm talking about this thickest document. There's no end to it.
22 It ends with page 13, the copy I have, without a signature. Now, I'm just
23 asking whether you can provide me with the complete document. That's my
24 first question.
25 And secondly, are there any changes in the order of witnesses?
Page 7770
1 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal with --
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is to say, the schedule and
3 list that I have received, the latest one.
4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Saxon, can you deal with the document?
5 MR. SAXON: I'll try, Your Honour. To the best of my knowledge,
6 Your Honour, this is the complete document or it is the most complete
7 version in the possession of the Office of the Prosecutor, but I will
8 check just to make sure that no mistake has been made.
9 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. And Mr. Nice, you said the next witness
10 would be K25?
11 MR. NICE: K25.
12 JUDGE MAY: And then following him?
13 MR. NICE: Crosland.
14 JUDGE MAY: Crosland.
15 MR. NICE: And I think, with the short day, that's all we've got
16 time.
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We've got, what, two days left. I think they're
18 normal short days, 9.00 until quarter to two.
19 MR. NICE: I hope the evidence will fill the time and I'm not sure
20 that we can have a reserve, but I'll just check on that.
21 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Very well. We will adjourn now.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.07 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of July,
24 2002, at 9.00 a.m.
25