Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8182

1 Wednesday, 17 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.

6 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, the next witness is Xhevahire Syla, but

7 we still don't have a ruling on the admissibility under the 92 bis. And I

8 also point to the Court that this witness also requested to be entirely 92

9 bis'd, meaning without cross-examination. She will give evidence about

10 the deportation in Djakovica area and also the destruction of the old

11 historic quarter in Djakovica, and that evidence has already been entered

12 by other witnesses, Hasan Pruthi, Andras Riedlmayer. And also for the

13 Meja deportation, there was the evidence given by Merita Dedaj, the

14 witness.

15 So before the witness comes in, the Prosecution requests ask

16 direction under --

17 JUDGE MAY: She has asked that she be not cross-examined, has she?

18 MS. ROMANO: No, she is part -- this witness is part of a letter

19 that we sent to the Court, asking --

20 JUDGE MAY: Oh, yes.

21 MS. ROMANO: -- around seven or eight witnesses to be treated this

22 way.

23 JUDGE MAY: We've got that. But she's here now.

24 MS. ROMANO: She's here.

25 JUDGE MAY: I thought you said the witness requested to be

Page 8183

1 entirely 92 bis'd.

2 MS. ROMANO: Sorry. If I said that, that's my mistake; the

3 Prosecution.

4 JUDGE MAY: The Prosecution. Just one moment.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will admit the statement, but the witness

7 must be cross-examined.

8 MS. ROMANO: That's fine, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MAY: While she's been collected, let me deal with one

10 matter while it's in my mind, which also deals with Rule 92 bis. In fact,

11 she's here.

12 [The witness entered court]


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

19 Yes, Judge Robinson reminds me that a point was made, Ms. Romano,

20 about the time that you take. Could you try and restrict it to five

21 minutes.

22 MS. ROMANO: Absolutely, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MAY: Could you, please. But bearing in mind the

24 interpreters. I'm sorry. If you choose to cut out a bit, we have got

25 your summary here, and of course we've had the chance of reading the

Page 8184

1 statement.

2 MS. ROMANO: No. The summary is extensive, but I do not intend to

3 read out the entire -- and I have already managed to cut it down.

4 Examined by Ms. Romano:

5 Q. Witness, can you please state your full name to the Court.

6 A. Xhevahire Syla.

7 Q. When were you born?

8 A. I was born on the 13th of February, 1968.

9 Q. Witness, do you remember giving two statements to the Office of

10 the Prosecutor, dated the 2nd of May, 1999, and 5 of October, 2001?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you also remember attending a meeting on 14th of March, 2002

13 in Djakovica, where you attended this meeting in the presence of a

14 presiding officer of this Tribunal, and you had the opportunity to confirm

15 that the contents of your statement are correct and true?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At that time, you also made an addendum to your statement. That's

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After you arrived here, Witness, you had again the opportunity to

21 review your statement, and you made a couple of revisions. In the first

22 statement dated 2nd of May, page 2, paragraph 3 states the following:

23 "Later, some commanders of the VJ explained to the villagers that the

24 houses in our village had been hit by mistake. They said that they had

25 been targeting the positions of the KLA in the village of Smoljica."

Page 8185

1 The sentence is incorrect; that's what you said. Is it true?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You did not speak to any VJ commander. That's true?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And this information was gleaned from other villagers who had

6 spoken to a member of the KLA; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. ROMANO: With these corrections, the Prosecution submits the

9 statements into evidence under the 92 bis Rule.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 270 and 270A for the redacted

11 version.

12 MS. ROMANO: This witness was born in Gjakove and lives in

13 Nivokaz, a village about 15 kilometres west of the town. That can be

14 found in Kosovo atlas page 9, map reference F-20. The witness will give

15 evidence of deportation, with associated persecutions, from Gjakove town

16 and villages in the municipality during 1998 and 1999. The witness also

17 gives evidence in relation to the Meja massacre.

18 On the evening of the 24th March, 1999, the witness was still

19 staying with friends in the Cabrat area of Gjakove town. Early on the

20 25th March, following NATO bombing, she witnessed police armed with

21 incendiary equipment setting houses in the area alight as well as the old

22 market area. The police were also looting property.

23 On 6 April 1999, the police and VJ entered the Cabrat area of

24 Gjakove. The Serb forces shot at the house where the witness was staying

25 and the witness and two other families fled. The witness returned to her

Page 8186

1 own village, but as her own house had been burnt, she stayed at her

2 father's house.

3 On 14 April 1999, mixed Serb forces entered Nivokaz, nine of whom

4 entered in the house where the witness was staying and gave the family

5 five minutes to leave. The witness left on tractor and trailers with many

6 other families. Some of the people in the convoy where the witness joined

7 were assaulted and others told to go to Albania.

8 As the column reached the MUP building in Gjakove, police and

9 soldiers appeared to be in a hurry to ensure that all of the convoy were

10 on tractor trailers and no one was on foot. The convoy continued but was

11 stopped near Bistrazin bridge by police and military who had formed a

12 roadblock. The Serb forces then distanced themselves from the convoy, and

13 thereafter, the column was hit by a NATO bomb. Shortly afterwards, three

14 low-flying aircraft bearing the Serbian flag passed overhead and bombed

15 the convoy seven times, killing 70 to 80 people.

16 On 17 April 1999, residents from Dobros arrived in the village

17 where the witness was staying, stating police had expelled them. The

18 police then arrived and the witness and her family were ordered to go to

19 Albania. She again joined a column of at least 50 other tractors and

20 trailers.

21 In Meja, the column was stopped by Serb mixed forces numbering

22 around 200. The witness saw at least 300 men being taken off the tractors

23 and ordered into a meadow. The men were made to kneel down with their

24 hands behind their heads, guarded by armed police.

25 The police then moved the remaining column on, telling the people

Page 8187

1 to wait in Korenica. 22 of the witness's fellow villagers who were

2 removed from the convoy are still missing, including members of the

3 witness's family.

4 In Korenica, the people in the convoy were robbed by

5 paramilitaries. Both police and paramilitaries escorted the convoy back

6 towards Gjakove and ordered them to continue unescorted to Prizren and at

7 the border. At the border post, VJ soldiers took ID documents from the

8 witness and others in the convoy. She also saw them removing registration

9 plates from vehicles.

10 That's all, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] In your statement dated the 2nd of May, amongst

14 your details you mention that you're a refugee. Where did you make this

15 statement?

16 A. In Albania.

17 Q. Tell me, at whose suggestion did you make this statement? How did

18 it come about that you gave this statement?

19 A. People came around to take the statements, and I made a

20 declaration.

21 Q. Who are these people?

22 A. There was a lawyer, but I don't remember his name.

23 Q. A lawyer, an Albanian lawyer; is that right?

24 A. One was Albanian and one was a foreigner.

25 Q. And did you give the statement to the best of your recollection or

Page 8188

1 did somebody make suggestions to you as to what kind of statement you're

2 supposed to give?

3 A. I told them only what I had seen and experienced myself.

4 Q. All right. So you explained to them what we heard now, that NATO

5 and our air force together bombed that convoy of yours. First NATO with

6 one bomb and then our air force with many bombs. That's what you

7 explained to them.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I haven't got any interpretation.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Oh. So your answer is yes. So now it's clear.

12 You say in your statement that the situation in the village was

13 peaceful all the way up to the 25th of May. Is that correct? Until the

14 25th of May, that is.

15 For all of two months of the war going on, the situation was

16 peaceful in the village nevertheless; is that right?

17 A. There wasn't much going on during the two months, no.

18 Q. All right. A short while ago, we heard a correction that has to

19 do with the assertions that your village was hit by mistake during the

20 fighting between the KLA and the army in the village of Smoljica. What's

21 this all about? Who said that to you? Who told you that it had been so?

22 A. We -- we had to return because we had nowhere else to stay, and we

23 were frightened. And there were a lot of police around the area there,

24 around us.

25 Q. I am asking you about this explanation that your village was hit

Page 8189

1 by mistake when there was fighting between the KLA and the army and the

2 police in the area of the village of Smoljica. What do you know about

3 that?

4 A. I don't know anything about Smolica, no, just about Nivokaz. Our

5 house was hit, and a cousin of my husband was wounded.

6 Q. All right. But there was fighting there between the KLA and the

7 army and the police. Is that right or is that not right?

8 A. There was not in Nivokaz. There was no KLA in Nivokaz.

9 Q. I'm not talking about Nivokaz. I asked you about the fighting in

10 the area between the KLA and the army and the police. Is that right or is

11 that not right?

12 A. There wasn't. At that time, there wasn't.

13 Q. All right. How do you then explain what you said in your

14 statement? You say that for a week, people resisted the Serb police and

15 the army of Yugoslavia. And when they ran out of ammunition, they had to

16 flee. Is that what you stated or not? That is to say, when they spent

17 all their ammunition as they were shooting at the army and the police,

18 then they had to run away. That's what it says on page 2 of your

19 statement. Is that right or is that not right?

20 A. That is -- that happened in July, not in March.

21 Q. I am not talking about March at all. In your statement, you refer

22 to the 2nd of May, and you say that for a week, people resisted the Serb

23 police and army, and when they ran out of ammunition, they had to escape.

24 So was there fighting there or was there not fighting there?

25 JUDGE MAY: If you look at the dates --

Page 8190

1 Just a moment.

2 If you look at the dates in the statement, what it says is: "The

3 situation in our village during the last year has been relatively calm

4 until the 25th of May, when at 6.00 a.m., Serbs started shelling our

5 village." And then the witness describes that.

6 Then in the next paragraph, she says: "We continued to live in

7 the village for two months more. Two months after the shelling, the

8 police and VJ tried to capture the village. The village self-organised

9 defence," et cetera.

10 So in fact, she appears to be dealing - in fairness to her - with

11 an event which would have taken place in July.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Something that happened after they

13 returned to the village.

14 JUDGE MAY: We're dealing with 1998.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked whether there had been any

16 fighting, and she says villagers. And now villagers are the KLA. No

17 villagers, no villagers without any arms or anything. They spent all

18 their ammunition and then they escaped. I imagine that's clear.

19 JUDGE MAY: That is what she says in her statement, that it was

20 the villagers. But if you're challenging it, it should be put to her.

21 What is alleged is that it was not the villagers who were

22 resisting on this occasion but the KLA. Can you answer that, please?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They only fired at us. They

24 didn't fire during that time. There was a bit of firing at the Serbs but

25 not very much.

Page 8191

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. All right. There was shooting until they used up all their

3 ammunition, from what I can see in your statement, because you say that

4 they escaped when they ran out of ammunition.

5 A. On the last week, they lived -- in the last week, they came to

6 Nivokaz and stayed there for a time, but we had gone to Gjakove.

7 Q. All right. Tell me, how many of these people that you mention

8 resisted, as you had put it, the army and the police until they ran out of

9 ammunition? How many of them were there?

10 A. In the village of Nivokaz how many? I don't know.

11 Q. All right. But you know that they were there and that they were

12 shooting until they ran out of ammunition. So do you have any idea how

13 many were there?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you only know this: As you say, they resisted them until they

16 ran out of ammunition. You don't know how many there were and you don't

17 know who these people were. Actually, you claim that they are villagers,

18 and if you know nothing about this, how come you know that they were

19 villagers?

20 JUDGE MAY: That's not a fair question. She said she doesn't know

21 how many there were, that was all.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right, Mr. May.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. And for how long did they resist, as you had put it, until they

25 ran out of ammunition? How long did this go on?

Page 8192

1 A. One week.

2 Q. A week? For a week?

3 JUDGE MAY: That is what she said; a week.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. For a week a group of armed men use up all their ammunition. So

7 in a week, one uses up a lot of ammunition. It must have been a lot of

8 people if they managed to resist the army and police for a week. Give me

9 an approximation; how many were there?

10 JUDGE MAY: No. You've asked that question. She says she doesn't

11 know.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right, Mr. May.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. How far away is Smoljica from your village? Do you know Smoljica

15 well?

16 A. It's about five kilometres.

17 Q. And do you know that Smoljica was a centre where weapons were

18 collected from Albania? In large quantities, at that. Weapons,

19 ammunition, et cetera.

20 A. No. I've never heard that.

21 Q. You never saw that? And did you hear that in April 1998, the

22 largest quantity of weapons until then was brought in from Albania to

23 Smoljica? Did you hear anything about that? Did people talk about it?

24 It's the neighbouring village, after all.

25 A. I wasn't interested in that sort of thing. In the end, I was only

Page 8193

1 interested in saving myself.

2 Q. All right. Now I'm talking about 1998. Do you know that 370

3 people with 15 tractors and five trucks brought weapons from Albania?

4 Three hundred seventy men, 15 tractors, five trucks. This was a major

5 event. I imagine you must have known about it. Do you know anything

6 about it?

7 A. You must ask somebody else, because I don't know. I wasn't there

8 at the event.

9 Q. And do you know who Naim Maloku, Besnik, is? Naim Maloku,

10 nicknamed Besnik.

11 A. I don't know him.

12 Q. Have you heard of him?

13 A. I have heard his name, but I don't know what he did.

14 Q. And did you hear about the fact that he was the commander, the

15 head of that KLA terrorist group that the KLA organised in Smoljica and

16 the surrounding villages, which includes your village? Did you hear about

17 that?

18 A. I never saw him in our -- I never saw him in our village. I can

19 only tell you what I've seen with my own eyes.

20 Q. Tell me what you heard about him and his activities. Not what you

21 saw but what you heard; tell us that.

22 A. I didn't know anything about this business. I really don't know.

23 Q. All right. Now, there are three statements of yours, and I must

24 admit I wasn't able to link them up. But in your statement of the 5th of

25 September, 2001, and of October, you change your statement and say that

Page 8194

1 they -- the villagers defended the village in July and not in May when

2 they were attacked. What is the truth, the correct one?

3 A. July.

4 Q. Well, tell me, what led you to change your statement? Who --

5 JUDGE MAY: I've got the statement and I may be wrong about this,

6 but I've got the statement 2nd of May 1999, which I've just read out to

7 you, which refers to the 25th of May and the shelling, and then two months

8 later, the resistance to the Serb forces, which would make it July. So

9 unless I'm wrong about that, there doesn't seem to be any change.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think the difference is

11 quite obvious, but I don't want to waste time, because that's what it says

12 in her statements.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So your statement saying it was in July is correct; is that it?

15 Is that what you claim? Right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, in your statement of the 2nd of May, you say that the Serbs

18 burnt all the houses. Is that what you said? Right?

19 A. 14th of April they burnt all the houses. They had burnt some

20 before, but on the 14th of April, it was the whole village.

21 Q. You say that they burnt all the houses but that they did not harm

22 anyone in the village and that you fled from the village with your family

23 to Djakovica. What actually happened? You said: "All the houses were

24 burnt. They didn't harm anyone, and we escaped to Djakovica." Is that

25 the essence of the story you're telling?

Page 8195

1 A. It was only the person who was hit by a shell who was killed.

2 Others, no. On the 25th of May, 1998.

3 Q. All right. And then you go on to say that you stayed in Djakovica

4 until the end of March 1999. Is that correct, that you stayed there until

5 the end of March 1999?

6 A. We stayed there in Gjakove until 5th of April, 1999.

7 Q. All right. Until the 5th of April. Does that mean, then, from

8 May 1998 until the 5th of April, 1999 you were in Djakovica? Because that

9 is what emerges from what you say, from what I'm asking you and from your

10 answers. From May 1998 to the end of -- or, rather, the 5th of April,

11 1999, you were in Djakovica; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MAY: I think you may be confusing the witness. The

14 statement says: "25th of May --" I read this out -- "the Serbs started

15 shelling the village. We continued to live in the village for two months

16 more," and then you say: "but by that time, my family had already fled

17 the village."

18 Now, I may have missed this: When did you go to Gjakove?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We went in July, the beginning of

20 July. I don't know the exact date, but it was in July 1998.

21 JUDGE MAY: So you were there from July 1998 to the 5th of April,

22 1999. The witness --

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. Mr. May, I

24 think that cross-examination serves the purpose of having the witness

25 answer orally to what it says here and not to prove whether something is

Page 8196












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8197

1 written down or not.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course, but you mustn't mislead the witness,

3 and you mustn't confuse her. The witness must have the chance of

4 answering fairly and properly. That's the point.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And do you think it's confusing for

6 me to ask her whether that means from such-and-such a date, from May until

7 April 1999, you were in Djakovica, that that is a confusing question?

8 JUDGE MAY: Move on.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it appears to me that every

10 witness is a protected witness as far as you're concerned, different forms

11 of protection, that is.

12 JUDGE MAY: That is an improper comment. You know quite well why

13 you get interrupted, and you will be interrupted if you try and confuse

14 and mislead the witnesses. That is not a proper form of cross-examination

15 and it's the Court's duty to stop it. Now, move on.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. All right. Tell me this, please: In view of the fact that all

18 the houses had been burnt, how were you able to go back to your father's

19 house then?

20 A. On 14th of April, 1999, all the houses were burnt. Let me say

21 that again.

22 Q. Yes. But my question was this: As you say that that was the

23 situation at the time, how were you able to go back to your father's house

24 if it had been burnt? How could you return to a house that had been burnt

25 down?

Page 8198

1 A. On the 14th of April, 1999, when we set off for Albania, all the

2 houses were burnt. They were burnt before, too, but on 14th of April,

3 1999, all the houses in Nivokaz were burnt.

4 Q. Now, can you answer me this: How did you go back to your father's

5 house, how could you, if it had been burnt down?

6 JUDGE MAY: You will have to explain the question to the witness

7 so that she can understand what you mean.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I mean what I'm asking,

9 Mr. May. She says she went back to her father's house. Before that, she

10 had claimed that all the houses had been burnt down. So I'm asking her

11 now how she managed to return to her father's burnt-down house. That's

12 the question.

13 JUDGE MAY: Do you understand the question? If you don't

14 understand the question, Ms. Syla, simply say, "I don't understand the

15 question," and the accused will have to clarify it. If you do understand

16 the question, then answer it as best you can.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that on the 14th of April,

18 1999, all the houses were burnt.

19 JUDGE MAY: I think he's asking you about earlier times.

20 Mr. Milosevic, if you want this question clarified -- answered,

21 you'll have to clarify it.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. When did you go back to your father's house?

24 A. After the NATO bombing.

25 Q. So you're talking about after the war. And during the war, when

Page 8199

1 did you return to your father's house?

2 A. During the war.

3 Q. When?

4 JUDGE MAY: Let's try and clarify this. You go from the village

5 to Gjakove in July of 1998. And then, as I understand it, on the 5th of

6 April, you come back to the village.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE MAY: And you're there for a few days but then you're

9 expelled. Is that the order of things?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE MAY: Now, I think the point that is being made is that on

12 an earlier occasion, in July, I think you're saying that the Serbs burnt

13 the houses, and I think all the houses, Judge Kwon kindly reminds me.

14 Now, the point that's being made is if in July the Serbs had burnt

15 all the houses, how were you able the following April to return to your

16 father's house in the village? Do you understand the point that's being

17 made? There may be an answer to it which you can give.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE MAY: Right. Can you explain to us what happened?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1998, in July, some houses were

21 burnt. And on the 14th of April, 1999, all the houses were burnt.

22 JUDGE MAY: Was your father's house one of the houses that were

23 burnt in July 1998?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not burnt.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8200

1 Q. So the answer is it was not burnt; right?

2 JUDGE MAY: She just said that.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You left Djakovica because of the bombing; is that right?

6 A. No; because of your police and army.

7 Q. All right. Now, do you remember the bombing of Djakovica?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you say -- can you tell us whether there was a mass bombing of

10 Djakovica?

11 A. Only military targets. Only at weaponry. They didn't bomb the

12 houses.

13 Q. And do you know that at the time NATO targeted the very centre of

14 town and that there was destruction and that a fire broke out? Do you

15 remember that particular bombardment?

16 A. Yes, but I don't know the date. But I heard of it.

17 Q. Do you know that on the occasion, 28 residential buildings were

18 set fire to as a result of the explosions of the bombing in Djakovica?

19 They went up in flames.

20 A. No.

21 Q. And do you remember that on the occasion, for example, Ferizi,

22 Avni Ferizi and Shefqet Pruthi, in that bombing, the bombing in the centre

23 of town, were killed? They were Albanians, both of them, and both from

24 Djakovica. Do you remember how they were killed during that bombing? Do

25 you remember how many casualties and victims remained under the debris

Page 8201

1 after the bombing?

2 A. The only victims were from the army and the police who entered the

3 houses and executed people. That's what I've heard. Not from the

4 bombing.

5 Q. All right. But I understood you to say a moment ago that you had

6 heard about these victims, the victims of the bombings of the centre of

7 town.

8 JUDGE MAY: She has given you the answer, and there's clearly a

9 dispute about this as to who was responsible, and it's one we're going to

10 have to resolve. Now, she wasn't there at the time, or she wasn't in the

11 centre of town at the time, so she can only give very limited evidence.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, Djakovica is not New York

13 for somebody not to have been in the centre of town. If the centre of

14 Djakovica is being bombarded, then there are no inhabitants of Djakovica

15 who wouldn't know about it.

16 JUDGE MAY: Let's move on.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. All right. In your statement, I see that you're quite well-versed

19 in armaments, because in the 2001 statement, May, you say that the

20 Yugoslav army was -- had automatic representatives of the Gulinov type.

21 What kind of weaponry is that? Can you tell us? It's very specific, very

22 specific weaponry. Could you explain it to us?

23 A. I -- I only saw a few. I didn't see things with my own eyes. I

24 just saw a few. I only saw automatic weapons.

25 Q. All right. And who told you to enumerate these weapons and to use

Page 8202

1 their exact names, as you have done?

2 A. Can you ask the question, please? It's not clear to me.

3 Q. I'm asking you the following: As you claim that they had the

4 Gulinov type of automatic rifle, and you say that all you know is that it

5 was automatic, so who told you that that was the name of that weapon and

6 to say so, to state that? Because quite obviously you don't know that,

7 it's not something that you yourself know; right?

8 A. I didn't talk about Gulinovs. I don't know what it is. I didn't

9 talk about this in my statement.

10 Q. All right. That is enough. What you say is quite sufficient.

11 Now, tell me, if you were watching from a distance of 300 metres, were you

12 able to recognise any type of weapon in particular?

13 A. Only when the city of Gjakove was burned we saw flames coming, and

14 we saw the flames coming towards us. But we know that they didn't set

15 fire to houses with Gulinovs but with some kind of small gun.

16 Q. That was after the bombing, wasn't it? You saw that flame after

17 the bombing; right, the fire after the bombing?

18 A. They began when the bombing began. The Serbs began acting when

19 the bombing began.

20 Q. All right. Tell me, please, did you ever have that kind of weapon

21 in your hands? Did you hold a weapon of that type ever?

22 A. I've never had an arm in my hands, an automatic weapon, no.

23 Q. Did you ever hold any kind of weapon in your hands?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, where is this reference that you're

Page 8203

1 making to the Gulinov rifle? We can't find it.

2 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, it's at page 2 --

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's page 2 of the statement --

4 MS. ROMANO: -- of October --

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- dated the 3rd of September 2001.

6 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano, yes.

7 MS. ROMANO: It's on page 2 and the bottom of page 2 of the

8 statement on the 5th of October, 2001, the second statement.

9 JUDGE MAY: Is this in the English?

10 MS. ROMANO: Yes, in English. The seventh paragraph. The --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel. Microphone, please,

12 Ms. Romano.

13 MS. ROMANO: "The attack started --"

14 JUDGE MAY: I've got it.

15 MS. ROMANO: That's the paragraph.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Mr. May?

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. In your statement of the 5th of September, 2001, you also say that

20 on the 6th of April, you started out from Djakovica on foot towards your

21 village of Nivokaz and that there were 15 of you in the group, 15 people

22 in the group. Is that what you said?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Does that mean that that was the first time you came to the

25 village after you left it in 1998?

Page 8204

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how many people were there in the village at that time?

3 A. Quite a few when we returned to our village and the other villages

4 too.

5 Q. There were others there too. That means that the houses hadn't

6 been burnt; right?

7 A. The other villages around.

8 Q. But your village wasn't burnt, just the villages around your own

9 village; right?

10 A. All the villages were burnt down on the 14th of April, 1999;

11 everything. There weren't any houses which were not unburnt [as

12 interpreted].

13 Q. All right, let's move on, not to waste time, because your

14 statements are very interesting. How, then, can you explain the fact that

15 in the village everything was burnt - that's what you say, right? - and

16 that then you formed a column of 25 to 30 tractors with trailers and in

17 each tractor there were over 20 people, et cetera. So how come this

18 column started up? And if everything had been burnt, where did you get

19 the tractors and the trailers from? Does that mean that the houses were

20 burnt but not the tractors and trailers?

21 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the witness answer.

22 Can you deal with that, please? Were the tractors not burnt?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the tractors were not burnt. In

24 the village of Meja, Dobrosh, there were tractors which were not burnt. I

25 didn't say that the tractors had all been burnt.

Page 8205

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. All right. That means, if I understand you -- or here's my

3 question: Does that mean that the houses were burnt but that nobody

4 touched the tractors? Right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In your statement, you go on to say that the people loaded up

7 their belongings onto the tractors. Now, if their houses had been burnt,

8 where did they get their belongings from?

9 A. All we put onto the tractors were the people, the family members.

10 We didn't have any property to take with us. Also things from the unburnt

11 houses.

12 Q. All right. Now, please, on 4 of your statement dated 2001, you

13 say that the column of tractors was 15 kilometres long. Is that correct?

14 A. It was about that. All the villages in the municipality of

15 Gjakove were in that valley. So it was quite long. Dobrosh, Sheremetaj

16 Dallashaj and Meja.

17 Q. All right. Now, if that was 15 kilometres, the head of the column

18 was already in Djakovica, whereas the tail had not even left their yards

19 in the surrounding villages yet. Is that right?

20 A. In Meja. It was a long convoy, about as long as I said, but it

21 was very long. There were a lot of people in it.

22 Q. And tell me where you yourself were in that column; at the head of

23 the column, at the end of the column, in the middle? Where were you?

24 A. I was towards the end.

25 Q. Towards the end of the column.

Page 8206

1 A. Not exactly at the end but towards the end. In the second half of

2 the convoy.

3 Q. And how were you able to assess that the column was 15 kilometres

4 long if you were at its tail end, if you had joined it towards the end of

5 the column?

6 A. Well, we waited for the first parts of the convoy to set off and

7 to pass. We joined it towards the end. The other villages set off first.

8 And we saw them passing, all the convoy as it passed.

9 Q. All right. As you say that the police escorted you the whole

10 time, does that mean that the policemen marched together with the convoy

11 throughout its whole length, that is to say, 15 kilometres? How many

12 policemen would there have been then?

13 A. There were quite a few. You would know better.

14 Q. All right. So that, then - let's just be specific - happened on

15 the 14th of April, 1999. Is that correct or not?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, your time is coming up. In fact,

18 you've probably had the best part of three-quarters of an hour. So if you

19 want to ask questions about what happened on the bridge, you should do so

20 now. You have another five minutes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're speaking about the bridge at

22 Bistrazin; is that right?

23 JUDGE MAY: You're the one who's referring to it. Yes, go on.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8207

1 Q. Would you take a look at these photographs now, please. They show

2 the bombed tractors, carbonised bodies, the people in them.

3 JUDGE MAY: Have you got the photos there? Yes. If the usher

4 would get them.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Are these the scenes?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE MAY: There will be another one. The second one, please.

9 Do you recognise that?

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. A group of people -- charred bodies, rather. Tell me, now, was

12 this bombing by NATO?

13 A. They -- a lot of people passed, and other planes passed

14 afterwards. I don't know whether it was NATO or not. There was -- the

15 army was there, and we were stopped and we were forced to get off the

16 tractors.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Can we finish with those? Is there anything

18 else you want to ask?

19 Do you recognise that scene? Do you recognise that scene or not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A lot of people hurt.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. Thank you.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Tell me, where were these three bombs thrown? Which part of the

24 column? You say that there were three groups. Which part of the column

25 was affected; the beginning, the end, the middle?

Page 8208

1 A. Ones at the beginning. I didn't see it, but I saw it at a

2 distance, about 50 metres away, when the bombing from the plane came. And

3 there were people hurt. There were 30 people on a tractor. It was a very

4 small attack; when NATO attacked, the whole earth shook.

5 Q. Do I understand this right: Was the beginning of the column hit?

6 Is that right?

7 A. The head of the convoy and towards the second half again.

8 Q. Tell me. You were moving towards your houses; is that right? The

9 column was moving towards their houses.

10 A. Can you ask that again?

11 Q. In which direction was the column moving?

12 A. Towards Albania on the 14th.

13 Q. Since you said that it was a very long column, there were all

14 tractors, many villagers on tractors - children, et cetera - was it

15 visible from a great distance that this was a column of civilians? There

16 were horse-drawn carts, too, in the column; right? There were children,

17 there were civilians, old people.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell me, do you remember how many times aeroplanes bombed that

20 column?

21 A. In about seven places.

22 Q. And tell me, please, why did you state that you saw the Yugoslav

23 air force signs on the aircraft? Who told you to say that?

24 JUDGE MAY: Did anybody tell you to say that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I saw the planes because they

Page 8209

1 were very low. We could barely distinguish the NATO aircraft because they

2 flew very high. If the NATO planes had -- the NATO planes were very, very

3 high up.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You claim that you saw with your very own eyes signs on the

6 aeroplanes. Our very own signs on aeroplanes. Is that your assertion?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What do these signs look like? What is it that you saw? Please

9 describe for me what you saw.

10 A. The Yugoslav flag, a tricolour; red, white, and blue. This was

11 the entire plan of the accused, to do this sort of thing and blame NATO.

12 Q. Oh, fine. Now you finally revealed that. And do you know

13 perhaps, if you ever listened to the radio, watched television, read

14 newspapers, that NATO admitted that they had bombed that particular spot?

15 They took the responsibility for that bombing and purportedly expressed

16 their regrets over the fact that it had happened. Do you know about that?

17 A. Perhaps NATO bombed at the beginning, but where we were, not our

18 place, no. Nor for very long. It barely lasted for five minutes.

19 JUDGE MAY: This must be your last question, Mr. Milosevic.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I would like you to give me an answer. Since you could not have

22 seen Yugoslav aeroplanes and since it is well-known, generally known, who

23 did this, who told you to state that it was Yugoslav aeroplanes that you

24 had seen? Who told you to say that?

25 JUDGE MAY: She has answered that question. She said nobody did,

Page 8210












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8211

1 and that is what she saw, and that's her evidence. No point arguing about

2 it.

3 Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have any questions?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano.

6 MS. ROMANO: Just one matter, Your Honour

7 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

8 Q. Witness, on the 25th of March, 1999, what happened to the centre

9 of the town in the area of the old market?

10 A. At night, when the NATO bombing started, the entire old market

11 area of Gjakove was burnt, and they started to execute -- executing

12 people. And we were to one side. We were in Cabrat. We could see things

13 burning, and we could see them looting televisions and other appliance,

14 and people told us that they were also executing people. And that was

15 when they executed Dr. Izet Hima, the oldest doctor in Gjakove.

16 Q. Witness, how far were you from the old centre, from the old town?

17 A. We were on the edge of town, but the old market was quite close as

18 the crow flies.

19 Q. And could you --

20 A. 200 metres.

21 Q. And from this 200 metres, could you see who was doing the burning?

22 A. We didn't see them that night, but we saw them the next day

23 because they were burning houses at night -- during the day, too, and we

24 saw them. They would fire at the houses and they would suddenly erupt

25 into flames.

Page 8212

1 Q. Who are "they"?

2 A. The Serbs.

3 Q. Are they police, soldiers?

4 A. They were citizens and police.

5 Q. And how were they burning? Were they using any instrument, any

6 weapon?

7 A. Guns. I don't know what they had in these guns, but they would

8 fire at the houses and they would go up in flames.

9 Q. Thank you, Witness.

10 MS. ROMANO: No further questions, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Syla, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for

12 coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

14 JUDGE MAY: Before the next witness is called, I think there is a

15 matter that Mr. Wladimiroff wants to raise, and there are also a few

16 matters I'm going to deal with first.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE MAY: First of all, K32. We've considered the protective

19 measures order and we'll grant it -- or the protective measures

20 application; we'll grant it. Pseudonym and I think visual distortion, as

21 I recollect.


23 JUDGE MAY: The next matter is a ruling on the admissibility of

24 the statement of Marjan Krasniqi under Rule 92 bis.

25 The Trial Chamber will admit this statement under the Rule. It

Page 8213

1 does not relate to the acts and conduct of the accused and is of a

2 cumulative nature. It relates to incidents about which other evidence was

3 given. The Trial Chamber will not require the witness to attend for

4 cross-examination. The accused now says he wants to cross-examine the

5 witness, but it was at his original request that the statement was

6 exhibited. This request led to the application by the Prosecution. The

7 accused did not consider cross-examination was necessary then when he made

8 the application, and simply because the Prosecution have applied to have

9 it admitted under 92 bis, there is no reason for cross-examination now.

10 That said, it should be stressed that the Trial Chamber will take

11 into consideration all the contents of the statement, and that includes

12 the exculpatory parts.

13 The original marking for the statement, which was Exhibit D23,

14 will be vacated. That was a marking for identification. And it will be

15 given a new exhibit number. If the registrar would do that, please.

16 Just a moment.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 271.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] His statement is contradictory to

20 what was asserted. It is obvious from his statement that a local criminal

21 group had committed the crime. The fact that I pointed out it's

22 contradictory in nature cannot be a reason, to my mind, for this

23 Prosecution witness not to be cross-examined here, although I pointed

24 out --

25 JUDGE MAY: We have ruled on that. You've heard me give the

Page 8214

1 ruling. So there's no point arguing about it further. You also heard me

2 say that we would take into account all the contents, including the

3 exculpatory parts, and I remind you it was your application that the

4 statement be exhibited. Now, we've taken all that into account and we've

5 ruled. So it will be part of the evidence and you can refer to it.

6 Now, Mr. Ryneveld, are we ready for the next witness?

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. Mr. Wladimiroff, I'm sorry. Yes.

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, Your Honours. There is a matter I

10 want to raise with the Court and that relates to the witness Karleusa, who

11 will be on either today or tomorrow.

12 Your Honours may have noticed that the filing related to this

13 witness is confidential, and I'm not sure whether I should discuss the

14 matter in open court.

15 JUDGE MAY: I don't think there's going to be any application for

16 confidentiality, protective measures, as far as I know.

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Right. I will try to deal with the matter as

18 concisely as possible.

19 The Court may remember there are attachments, annexes, to the

20 intended statement of this witness. There are two newspaper articles, two

21 communiques, that is, press releases, and a number of interviews conducted

22 by the working group with about 21 or 22 witnesses, and a number of

23 photographs.

24 I have no difficulty with the photographs or the press communiques

25 because I take it the accused will be able to cross-examine the witness on

Page 8215

1 these issues. I do have a problem, though, with the newspaper articles.

2 It seems not consistent with the policy of your Chamber to accept that

3 opinions of journalists will be admitted as evidence. So we would object

4 to that. Precisely I intend to explain to you why we have a difficulty

5 with the number of interviews conducted with the working group.

6 Your Honours may have noticed that these statements are -- not all

7 of them are authenticated. There were some signatures on front pages but

8 not really related to all the statements itself. So it seems to us that

9 these are summaries by an investigator which are not under the -- well,

10 let me rephrase it -- which should be not admitted by the Court if the

11 Prosecutor intends to tender them. It's my understanding that the

12 Prosecutor does intend to tender them.

13 These statements would not qualify for a 92 bis statement because,

14 as I said, these are not signed statements, nor will the Prosecutor -- nor

15 will the accused be able to cross-examine these witnesses if they were

16 tendered as 92 bis statements. So we believe it will not be fair to him

17 to allow the witness -- to allow the Prosecution to have these statements

18 tendered.

19 Now, we can do two things: Either we can argue in detail when the

20 witness will be here, or we will file a motion on the issue. It's up to

21 the Court what you would prefer, I just want to alert you on the issue.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff, we've heard the objection. It would

23 be much more convenient, I should have thought, to deal with it orally.


25 JUDGE MAY: The Prosecution are alerted to your objection, we are

Page 8216

1 too, so we'll be able to consider it, and in due course we can hear full

2 argument.

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Very well, then. Thank you.


5 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. In those circumstances, I propose to

6 call Witness K32. And before he takes the courtroom, in light of your

7 ruling for protective measures --

8 JUDGE MAY: It's pointed out, Mr. Ryneveld, that it may be more

9 convenient, in order that the Court could be prepared, if we take the

10 adjournment now.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I was just about to say that. In light of

12 protective measures, we're going to have to at least get him here.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If we adjourn now for 20 minutes, we will be

14 back at 20 to.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to sit down.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, the first thing, could you put this

25 paper in front of the witness, please. And there are copies of this

Page 8217

1 document for Madam Registrar.

2 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

3 Q. Witness, don't say anything yet. Just look at that piece of

4 paper, and on that paper do you see your name and your date of birth and a

5 number, K32, underneath it? Is that your name and birth date? Yes or no.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Is the witness hearing translation? Does he have

7 the right channel on?

8 Q. I'll repeat my question. Can you hear me, Witness?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Look at the piece of paper that you've just been given, sir. On

11 it is a name and a date of birth, and underneath that, the number K32. Is

12 that your name and date of birth? Yes or no.

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't know whether we want to mark that as an

16 exhibit. I believe we have in the past, Your Honours. Thank you.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 272, to be kept under seal.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

19 Q. Now, Witness, do I understand, sir, that on the 26th of April of

20 this year, 2002, you gave a statement to an investigator of the ICTY? Is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And later on, sir, on the 8th of July, earlier this month, 2002,

24 did you take another investigator, a Mr. Jonathan Sutch, on a tour of the

25 area that you had discussed in that earlier statement?

Page 8218

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in so doing, did you learn the names of some of the villages

3 and locations which you were not familiar with at the time you gave your

4 statement?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Subsequently, sir, on the 15th of July of this year, two days ago,

7 did you have an opportunity to review that earlier statement and make some

8 corrections and amendments to it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And finally, sir, as a result of -- at my request, did you, with

11 the assistance of members of the ICTY, produce or have produced a map

12 which shows the areas to which you will be making reference in your

13 statement?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, perhaps -- we have copies, colour

16 copies of that document. Perhaps that can be shown to the witness.

17 Q. Just looking very briefly at that map, if you would, please, sir,

18 does that map show -- the little green circles on the map, does that show

19 the areas that you've made reference to in your statement?

20 A. Yes. It shows everything.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that be marked as an exhibit at this point

23 and then we can refer to it as he goes through his evidence, please, Your

24 Honours.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 273.

Page 8219

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

2 Q. Now, Witness K32, I understand, sir, that you are 26 years old,

3 you're a Muslim, and you're from Montenegro; is that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Is it true, sir, that you were conscripted to start your service

6 with the VJ in March of 1998?

7 A. Yes, correct.

8 Q. And then by the 10th of June of 1998, I understand that you were

9 sent to Prizren in Kosovo, and you joined the Logistics Corps as a driver.

10 Is that also correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And after some time, you eventually ended up being assigned to a

13 combat group in the village of Damjane which was, at the time, occupied by

14 civilians; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, sir, can you tell us from your knowledge as a driver in the

17 area, did you visit -- what was your function as a driver? What were you

18 specifically doing? Where were you driving to and what were you

19 delivering?

20 A. I was driving food in the army. I was delivering food throughout

21 the field. And water too.

22 Q. And do I understand correctly, sir, that there were various combat

23 groups in the area where you had to deliver your food and water?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I take it the translation I didn't get was, "Yes."

Page 8220

1 A. Yes, yes. Right.

2 Q. Now, sir, how many combat groups were there in the area, to your

3 knowledge?

4 A. Five.

5 Q. And these five combat groups, do you happen to know who their

6 commander was? Who was in charge of these five groups?

7 A. Colonel Bozidar Delic.

8 Q. And under him, did each of those combat groups have a particular

9 commander in charge of each individual group?

10 A. Yes, it did.

11 Q. How about in your group? Who was the commander of your particular

12 combat group?

13 A. Mostly they were lieutenant colonels by rank, and Bozidar was in

14 command of them.

15 Q. And when you say "Bozidar," you're talking about Delic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, sir, what combat group were you in?

18 A. Combat group 2.

19 Q. And how many soldiers were in your combat group?

20 A. There were between 150 to 190 soldiers. It differed and changed.

21 From 150 to 190.

22 Q. Your particular combat group, are you aware whether it had any

23 military equipment of any kind, and if so, very briefly, what kind of

24 equipment was at its disposal?

25 A. Yes, it did: Two tanks, four howitzers, and a number of military

Page 8221

1 vehicles for transporting the soldiers and for the purposes of the army.

2 Q. Now, sir, shortly after -- you've told us that you were moved to

3 Damjane. Once you got to Damjane, did something happen? Did you see

4 Colonel Delic arrive?

5 A. Yes, I saw him.

6 Q. Upon his arrival, are you aware of what happened?

7 A. Yes, I am aware of it. Upon his arrival, he issued orders to the

8 officers subordinate to him, and he said that they should get all the

9 civilians out of the houses, that there should be no civilians left.

10 Q. And how is it that you know about that order? Did you hear it

11 personally or did you hear it from someone else?

12 A. I didn't hear it personally, but the soldier who was with me told

13 me about it, and he heard him say that personally.

14 Q. All right. In any event, what did the soldiers do?

15 A. The soldiers, following orders issued by their commanders, went

16 from house to house and ordered the people to come out of the houses, the

17 civilians.

18 Q. Did they do that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what happened -- like, how quickly did the civilians in

21 Damjane, how quickly did they follow the order to leave?

22 A. Well, the order was that they should leave within the day. And

23 actually, they left within the space of three hours -- or, rather, 3.00.

24 It was 3.00 when everybody had left.

25 Q. Do you remember about what time of day they were told to leave?

Page 8222

1 A. In the course of the day by noon. We came in the morning. As

2 fast as possible, that they should leave as fast as possible.

3 Q. Now, by the following day, were there any civilians left in

4 Damjane, to your knowledge?

5 A. No, there were none left.

6 Q. What, if anything, did the civilians take with them or leave

7 behind upon having been told by your fellow soldiers to leave?

8 A. They only took their personal belongings with them and left all

9 the rest. The army said that they wouldn't touch any of their property,

10 that they could feel free to leave it behind. So they only took their

11 personal belongings with them.

12 Q. Were there any vehicles left behind?

13 A. Yes, the vehicles were left behind.

14 Q. What happened to those vehicles once the civilians left?

15 A. We took them. The Yugoslav army took them for army purposes.

16 Q. Did the army live up to its promise to these civilians that they

17 would not touch their personal belongings?

18 A. No, it did not.

19 Q. What happened?

20 A. Well, what they told the civilians they didn't abide by. They

21 told them that they wouldn't touch their property and that they wouldn't

22 touch their houses, but they did.

23 Q. Now, sir, once these civilians left, what steps were taken to --

24 were any steps taken at all in order to secure the area?

25 A. First of all, we blocked the roads. We put up barriers on the

Page 8223

1 roads, and nobody could enter the village after that.

2 Q. To your knowledge, did anyone try?

3 A. They did try, some people, but they weren't allowed to enter.

4 They came back to take some more belongings, but they weren't allowed in.

5 The army didn't permit them.

6 Q. What happened to them, if anything, when they did try to get into

7 the village?

8 A. They were mistreated somewhat by the soldiers, and similar things,

9 and so they had to leave.

10 Q. Now, you earlier told us, sir, about the army not living up to its

11 promise not to touch their belongings. Do you know anything about what

12 happened to the contents of a house or houses?

13 A. Most of the things were taken away, like television sets, radios,

14 and all that kind of electrical equipment and other things from the house,

15 and some of the officers would take them to their own homes. I saw that

16 taking place personally.

17 Q. Did they leave their cattle behind?

18 A. Yes, they did. They left their cattle behind.

19 Q. What happened to the cattle or any of them?

20 A. Well, mostly the sheep. How can I put it? They took the sheep

21 for themselves to eat.

22 Q. Where did the soldiers live while in Damjane?

23 A. In the houses, the civilian houses, the ones we had expelled the

24 people from.

25 Q. I see. I'm going to turn you next, your mind next, if I may, to

Page 8224












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8225

1 the period between the 1st and the 3rd of August of 1998. Were you aware

2 of what was known as a mopping-up operation between those dates?

3 A. I did not know.

4 Q. Do you recall an instance of an area between Djakovica, along the

5 road to Klina?

6 A. I remember, yes.

7 Q. All right. Sir, what happened on the road between Djakovica

8 towards Klina between the 1st and the 3rd of August? Can you tell us a

9 little bit of background about how it was that you were on that road and

10 what you were doing and what happened, if a specific instance happened,

11 while you were doing that.

12 A. There was a very large army column going to help the police as

13 reinforcement. We were going as reinforcements. The first village we

14 came to, we stopped. Colonel Bozidar Delic ordered a tanker -- tankist to

15 turn the tank around towards a house, and that was at the first village we

16 had arrived at, and ordered him to fire at the house. I saw and heard

17 that personally.

18 Q. All right. We're going to get to that in just a moment. I'm

19 going to back you up just a little bit first.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I'm at paragraph 6 of the summary.

21 Q. En route towards this village that you referred to, do you recall

22 an instance where you were delivering water to some soldiers and that

23 there had been an incident in a cornfield?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. Tell us about that first, please.

Page 8226

1 A. When I was delivering water to the soldiers, some of the soldiers

2 - and I had quite a lot of friends there - I saw two dead people,

3 Albanians, five or six metres away from me, and I asked one of my friends

4 what had happened, and he said, "We found them alive in the cornfields

5 over there, and we asked them some things and then we killed them."

6 Q. Did you look at the bodies?

7 A. Yes, I saw the bodies.

8 Q. Did you notice anything about any kind of wounds to these bodies?

9 A. Yes. I saw that the bodies had no ears, and in the nape of the

10 neck, that's where they were shot at with pistols.

11 Q. Could you tell whether this had been a recent killing or whether

12 that had happened quite some time ago?

13 A. Yes. The killing had taken place just before I had arrived, not

14 long before. Perhaps half an hour. Half an hour. They were killed half

15 an hour before I had arrived.

16 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to why your friends or the soldiers

17 killed these two men? Were you told anything about that?

18 A. Allegedly, those two Albanians told them that there was a trench

19 of some kind up there of 200 metres and that there were more people up

20 there who were armed. But I didn't believe that.

21 Q. And upon telling the soldiers that information, they were killed?

22 Is that what you understood?

23 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. Straight away. The soldier who saw it

24 take place told me.

25 Q. Were you informed whether there had been any kind of a gun battle

Page 8227

1 leading up to this incident?

2 A. I didn't learn of that.

3 Q. In any event, sir, I understand that you were there when a

4 coroner's van arrived and took the bodies away; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Now, sir, you were about to tell us, before I asked you to back up

7 and tell us about this incident, about Colonel Delic stopping outside a

8 village and telling a tank to do something. First of all, do you have --

9 do you know approximately where that village was and do you now know the

10 name of the village? Perhaps you might want to look at the map, if the

11 exhibit is available to the witness.

12 Do you see the map there? The left margin.

13 A. I see it, yes.

14 Q. Do you see the name of the village of this incident?

15 A. Yes, I can see the name of the village.

16 Q. And what is it?

17 A. Medevce, the village of Medevce.

18 Q. Is that spelled M-e-c-e/M-e-q-e depending on whether it's Serbian

19 or Albanian?

20 JUDGE MAY: It's a "D" I must say.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm --

22 JUDGE MAY: I'm just looking at the map.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was written up in Albanian and in

24 Serbian, I think.


Page 8228

1 Q. Yes, perhaps you could point --

2 MR. RYNEVELD: There are two, yes, Your Honours. I see there is

3 also a Medevce in the middle of the map and then there's a Mece in the

4 extreme left top quadrant of the map.

5 Q. Which village are you speaking about now, sir?

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps we could show it on the ELMO.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one here. Here it is, I've

8 already indicated.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: All right. Your Honours, the witness does appear

10 to be pointing to the green circle in the top left quadrant of the map,

11 which is Mece.

12 Q. Thank you. What happened there, sir, when you got to that

13 village?

14 A. We stopped at a spot. The village was about 300 metres away from

15 us. Bozidar Delic got out of his car, he ordered us to stop, all of us.

16 He came up to the tank, and he waited a few minutes and then ordered him

17 to fire a shell at the house that could be seen over there, which the tank

18 did.

19 Q. What happened then?

20 A. Nothing happened. But then he waited for a few more minutes and

21 then gave the same order, that another shell should be fired. And then

22 the civilians, mostly women and children, started fleeing from the house

23 and fleeing towards the woods behind the houses. And then he ordered the

24 infantry to start out towards the houses there and to start their

25 operation. That's what I heard him order.

Page 8229

1 Q. When you say "start their operation," did he tell them what to do?

2 A. To start the mop-up operation. That's understood.

3 Q. What did you understand that order to mean to you?

4 A. I understood it to mean that the terrorists should be killed and

5 -- well, I didn't understand whether it applied to civilians too, but

6 anyway, he ordered them to start mopping up. But they didn't tell us

7 anything, no concrete -- nothing in specific terms.

8 Q. Now, sir, did the soldiers, in fact, do that?

9 A. Yes, they did that. They started the operation right then and

10 there.

11 Q. What happened next?

12 A. We continued our journey, and that army, those soldiers, moved

13 towards other villages, but we went along the road.

14 Q. And how far away did you get before you got to the next village?

15 A. I think five or six kilometres, thereabouts.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: And, Your Honours, just north of the last green

17 circle where we have Mece, you will see that there are two villages to the

18 north, as it were.

19 Q. Witness, could you look at the map, again.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Could you leave -- is the map still there, Mr.

21 Usher? Could you leave it with him during the course of his evidence. He

22 will be referring to it from time to time.

23 Q. Now, sir, you said some kilometres away -- do you see the map?

24 Perhaps you could look right at the map itself rather than the image on

25 the screen. It's hard to read.

Page 8230

1 A. Yes, I can see it.

2 Q. Okay. Do you know the name of the village you next saw?

3 A. The name of the next village, I didn't remember it, actually.

4 Q. No, you didn't remember --

5 A. The name of the next village is -- before Rakovica, there was a

6 small village, I didn't remember the name, but we came across the civilian

7 police force there and a few of the other ones, the special units, PJPs,

8 and they were setting fire to the houses when we came. The houses were

9 already burning. I saw that myself.

10 Q. Now -- go ahead. Go ahead.

11 A. I saw a policeman taking out some belongings, like tools. They

12 were tools and things like that.

13 Q. On the 8th of July, when you went with Investigator Sutch to this

14 area, did you then realise that the village that you had been describing

15 was Rakovina? Does that name ring a bell to you or are you unable to

16 say?

17 A. Yes, it does ring a bell. It was the village of Rakovina.

18 Q. Now, did something happen while you were staying in that

19 particular area during the course of the next few days? What happened

20 there?

21 A. We were in the village of Rakovina. We spent two nights there.

22 And on the last day, there was some shooting in the afternoon. I didn't

23 know who was doing the shooting, you couldn't see it. But we were all

24 shooting at one particular spot. There was a hill there, and we were all

25 shooting at that hill. But I didn't see who was up there.

Page 8231

1 Q. Now, when you say "we were all," are you talking about both the

2 PJP and the VJ combat unit that you were in or just your unit or what?

3 A. There was the police there and the army. They were together.

4 Q. And you were all working together at that particular time; is that

5 what you're telling us?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to go very quickly over the next areas.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: And, Your Honours, I propose to lead a little bit.

9 Q. Sir, I understand that you went on home leave after this

10 particular incident, and on the 3rd of August you returned and stayed for

11 some time; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. You were supposed to return after a short period of leave, but you

14 stayed -- you decided not to return to the army and stayed away until the

15 21st of November, when something happened. What was that?

16 A. What happened was the following: The army of Yugoslavia came to

17 get me. About 15 soldiers came to pick me up at 4.00 in the morning. I

18 was transferred to Nis, to the prison there. From Nis -- actually, I was

19 in Nis for 20 days in the military investigative prison. I had to go. I

20 had to ask to be transferred to the same unit where I had been before.

21 That's what happened.

22 Q. Now, do I understand correctly, sir, that after some negotiation

23 with the assistance of your father and some local politicians, you

24 received sort of like a bail from your military prison and returned to

25 duty again as a driver with a different combat unit?

Page 8232

1 A. No, I was sent to the same combat unit.

2 Q. All right, I'm sorry. The same combat unit, and this is back in

3 Prizren now; is that correct, sir?

4 A. Yes. Excuse me. I was sent to my barracks. That's what I meant

5 when I said "unit."

6 Q. All right. That was my fault. I led you to -- all right. In any

7 event, you're let out of gaol and you report back for duty as a driver at

8 the barracks in Prizren with the same combat unit; correct?

9 A. Yes, yes, yes.

10 Q. Let's skip ahead now to about mid-March of 1999. And are you

11 aware, sir, of an offensive on a village known as Jeskovo?

12 A. I was not aware of that.

13 Q. Well, that's my phrasing. Did something happen with respect to

14 Jeskovo or Jeshkove?

15 A. Yes. In the morning, we were on the alert and we were taken to a

16 village towards Dragash. They did not tell us where we were going. I

17 just know that we surrounded a village. And there were 1.000 soldiers and

18 300 policemen there altogether, surrounding that village, and allegedly

19 there were terrorists in that village.

20 Q. And did you see Delic present during that particular operation?

21 A. Yes, he was present.

22 Q. Can you tell us where you were in relation to him and what, if

23 anything, you heard or saw that relates to the matter now before the

24 Court?

25 A. I saw Delic as we were entering the village itself. I saw him.

Page 8233

1 He was near me. I think he was about 20 or 30 metres away from me. As we

2 were entering the village, we said that we should not let a single person

3 remain alive.

4 Q. Now --

5 JUDGE MAY: That's not very clear. Can you clarify that?

6 MR. RYNEVELD: I certainly will, Your Honour. I intend to back

7 up.

8 Q. Did you see Delic -- I'm sorry. Who was -- were you near your

9 particular combat unit commander at any point?

10 A. At one moment towards the end of the operation, I was near my very

11 own commander, the commander of my company, who was listening to his

12 orders.

13 Q. How did he get these orders transmitted? Let me be -- did he have

14 a radio with him?

15 A. Yes. He had a radio transmitter with him. Every company

16 commander had to have a radio transmitter with him.

17 Q. On this particular occasion, were you near enough to your

18 particular combat unit commander to be able to overhear transmissions

19 coming in on that radio?

20 A. Yes, I was nearby, very close.

21 Q. Did you hear something being said on your commander's radio?

22 A. Yes. I heard him say --

23 Q. What was it?

24 A. He said over the radio - I heard his voice very well - he said --

25 JUDGE MAY: Who? Will we have some clarity? Who was speaking?

Page 8234

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That was the next question.

2 Q. Whose voice did you hear coming over the radio?

3 A. I heard the voice of Bozidar Delic, the commander of that

4 operation.

5 Q. And what did you hear him say on the radio?

6 A. He said, "Get ready. In a minute or two, fire will be opened."

7 And then we waited for him to issue the order to start. And the order was

8 that that would happen when a tank would fire a shell and then when the

9 shell would arrive in the village. That was a kind of password.

10 Q. Did you hear the order?

11 A. Yes, I heard that order.

12 Q. Who gave it?

13 A. Bozidar Delic.

14 Q. What happened next?

15 A. When the tank fired a shell from the neighbouring village, then it

16 exploded in this village. And then our commanders ordered us to fire at

17 the village. And that was a pleasure for them.

18 Q. Did they follow his order?

19 A. Yes. They followed every order. That one too.

20 Q. What happened next?

21 A. We were shooting for about half an hour, I think, all of us. I

22 can't say that it was exactly half an hour, but I think it was around that

23 time. Then we took about an hour off. He ordered to stop firing.

24 JUDGE MAY: None of this relates to his first comment, "We were

25 told," something or other. I want to know whether that's the truth or

Page 8235

1 not.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, it's actually coming -- it's coming in

3 about the next minute or two. I'm trying to get through this

4 chronologically so the Court can understand the manner in which it

5 happened. If you look at paragraph 11, I'm just -- just before that --

6 the witness skipped ahead to that particular issue, and I backed him up.

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will keep going.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

9 Q. So after the firing took place, sir, did you hear Delic give a

10 further order?

11 A. He said, after one hour, that we should move towards the village,

12 that we should go down towards the village. As we were going down,

13 somebody started firing again, and we continued to shoot again. It was

14 brief, for about five or ten minutes. Everybody was shooting.

15 The shooting stopped, and no one could be heard shooting, and we

16 started moving towards the village. When we entered the village, that's

17 when I got close to Bozidar Delic, and I personally heard him say that

18 when we enter the village that we should make an effort not to let anyone

19 remain alive, anyone we find in the village.

20 Then when entering the village, the police captured an Albanian

21 who was getting out of the house, and he was shouting, "I surrender. I

22 surrender." But he had no time to surrender. They shot him in the ears

23 and they killed him immediately. First a soldier shot who was near the

24 policeman, but the policeman shouted at the soldier, "Why didn't you let

25 me shoot at him at that moment?" I saw that very well. The policeman

Page 8236

1 took out a knife and cut off his ears, and that is where the operation

2 practically ended.

3 Then we received orders to get ready to go to the barracks. I saw

4 many dead bodies in the village; seven to be exact. I saw seven, but

5 there were more.

6 When we returned to the barracks, the next day I heard there were

7 about 30 persons killed. Allegedly they were terrorists. I saw

8 civilians. Nobody wore a uniform. None of them did. And the next day,

9 the police gathered these dead bodies.

10 Q. Just stop there. I've got to ask you a couple of questions for

11 clarification. You told us that this one man came out, saying, "I

12 surrender. I surrender." Did you see him make any --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- other movements? What, if anything, was he doing with his

15 hands or arms? Could you describe for the Court how he came out, just

16 show us, please.

17 You're now putting your hands in the air to either side of your

18 head; is that correct?

19 A. Yes. Yes. And he was shouting, "I surrender. I surrender." He

20 didn't speak Serbian very well, but I remember him very well.

21 Q. How was he dressed? Was he in civilian -- I'm sorry, you've

22 already told us. You saw no one in uniform; correct?

23 A. Yes. I did not see anyone wearing a uniform. He was in civilian

24 clothes.

25 Q. Now, sir, a few days later, I understand, on the 18th of March,

Page 8237

1 you received a fine and given a one-year good behaviour bond with respect

2 to your desertion from the army; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. And then you returned to Prizren on the 20th of March, and then

5 four days later, the 24th of March, you were deployed with your battalion

6 to another village close to Orahovac. Do you remember the name of that

7 village?

8 A. The village of Trnje, Novake and Trnje. That's where we were.

9 Q. A village near Novake, is that it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And on the map, could you point out Trnje for Their Honours? Do

12 you have that map available again?

13 A. I have the map.

14 Q. Use the pointer and point it out for us.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Okay. You're pointing to the green circle between Suva Reka and

17 Mamusa; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's the village.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Well, sir, did something happen on the

20 morning of the 25th of March, 1999?

21 A. Yes, something did happen. We received orders to go to the

22 village to cleanse it from civilians. That was issued by the colonel, by

23 Colonel Delic to my commanders. I know that he issued that order.

24 Q. And how do you know that, sir?

25 A. Because in the army, as far as an operation is concerned, they

Page 8238












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8239

1 don't really conceal very much, and every soldier knows about that, and

2 every soldier knows why we came. So I knew all of that too.

3 Q. When an order is -- when an order is given in the army, is that

4 order usually communicated to all soldiers, and if so, by whom?

5 A. Our company commanders transmit that. Actually -- how should I

6 put this? Bozidar Delic, when he issues an order to a captain or to

7 somebody that has an even lower rank, then that person issues orders to

8 company commanders and platoon commanders, and then these company

9 commanders and platoon commanders issue orders to us. And -- and when our

10 commanders issued these orders to us, we went to the village together with

11 them, and we started with the operation of cleansing the village.

12 Q. So these orders came down the chain of command. Is that basically

13 what you're telling us, sir?

14 A. Yes. Yes, that's it.

15 Q. Well, sir, having heard that order, did something happen near

16 Mamusa, near the village of Trnje that you've told us about?

17 A. Near the village of Trnje -- actually, we entered the village of

18 Trnje. It was very close to us, this village. The army started killing

19 civilians who were in the village. I personally saw that.

20 Q. Do you know why they did that, on whose order?

21 A. On the order -- I think on the order of Delic. I am not quite

22 sure, but as soon as they were doing that, it must have been under those

23 orders.

24 Q. Who was your company commander?

25 A. Are you referring to the battalion or the company or the group?

Page 8240

1 Q. Well, perhaps you can give the chain. First of all, your

2 immediate commander, the company commander, who was that?

3 A. Milan Nedeljkovic. He was my commander.

4 Q. And above him, who would that be?

5 A. Captain Pavle Gavrilovic.

6 Q. And did you hear anything from Gavrilovic? Do you know whether he

7 gave any orders?

8 A. Yes. Yes. He issued the order for us to go into the village, and

9 he was on the outskirts of the village. He remained on the outskirts of

10 the village and we went. Oh, yes, he issued the order.

11 Q. What order was that?

12 A. To go to the village and to start cleansing it and to do our best

13 not to keep anyone alive there.

14 Q. Now, did the soldiers, in fact, enter the village of Trnje?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And can you describe for the Court how -- what they did when they

17 went into the village? Was it just one big group or did they break up

18 into groups or how -- how did things happen?

19 A. There were several groups of the military, and they were all

20 dispersed. There were three groups from -- amongst us. The first one

21 left first, and then a second one left, and then a third one. That was

22 the system of this action. This was at 8.00 in the morning when the

23 village was attacked, and they started shooting, killing civilians, old

24 men, women, children. I didn't see any young men there, men in general.

25 I personally saw them killing people with my very own eyes. In some parts

Page 8241

1 I did not see them actually doing the killing, but I did see it in other

2 parts, the army actually doing the killing.

3 Q. Tell us about the first incident where you saw people being

4 killed.

5 A. The first incident was when the first group entered the village.

6 Old women, three old women and two old men were running across a field. I

7 saw that. Somebody shot at them from the houses, and I saw them falling

8 into a ploughed field. That's the first incident I saw.

9 The second incident was closer to me but I couldn't see it from

10 the walls of the houses that Albanians build around their houses. Then I

11 heard the screaming of women. I walked in. I saw some of my soldiers -

12 I mean my comrades from the army - with an NCO. I did not exactly see

13 whether they had killed them, but at any rate, I saw many dead bodies in

14 the yard. So I approximately came to the conclusion as to how many there

15 were there.

16 Q. And your approximation of how many dead bodies you saw in that

17 compound? How many?

18 A. When I entered, I entered really fast because this was a very fast

19 operation. So they had already finished as far as that place was

20 concerned. And when I walked in, I saw many dead people. I saw some

21 soldiers, and then we got out immediately so we would go to the second

22 house and then to the third house. In the village, that is. I think

23 that --

24 Q. I'm just going to ask you, are you able to give an approximation?

25 A. You mean of the dead bodies?

Page 8242

1 Q. Yes. How many?

2 A. There was a big heap in one corner. I think about 15, something

3 like that. I didn't really count them, but that's what it seemed like to

4 me.

5 Q. And from what you saw in the pile of dead bodies, are you able to

6 give the Court an indication as to age or sex or what kind of people they

7 were?

8 A. It was mostly women and children.

9 Q. Did you see any very young children?

10 A. Yes, I did. In another house, I think I saw -- I did see a mother

11 with a baby. The baby was shot in the head, and this also killed the

12 mother.

13 Q. Now, sir, did you -- you told us you came upon this scene. There

14 were some soldiers, comrades of yours, and a non-commissioned officer, and

15 this pile of bodies. Did you subsequently find out by speaking to someone

16 how it was that these dead bodies happened to be in that compound with

17 these officers -- with the soldiers, sorry. Did they tell you what

18 happened?

19 A. I didn't really talk. I talked to a soldier. His last name was

20 Milosevic. He cried when they killed a woman, a good-looking woman.

21 That's the only thing I saw. This soldier was sorry to have done that.

22 He was sorry to have done anything to her. That's the only thing I talked

23 about.

24 Q. Did he tell you how these people happened to die?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8243

1 Q. What did he tell you?

2 A. He talked specifically about this case, about this female. This

3 soldier who was close to him killed this female with a rifle. That's what

4 he told me about.

5 Q. Sorry. I may have misdirected you to the incident that I'm

6 interested in. You've told us earlier about a group that you approximate

7 to be about 15 people in a compound. Did you find out how it was that

8 those 15 people were killed? Sorry. I should have made that clear in my

9 question.

10 A. I found out from the soldier that the non-commissioned officer who

11 was with these soldiers gave an order, and he actually participated in the

12 killing of these people too.

13 Q. Did he tell you how?

14 A. Simply they took them out of the houses, put them into the corner,

15 into a corner, and they shot at all of them. All the soldiers who were

16 there shot at them.

17 Q. Now, sir, you told us that after you went from one house, you'd go

18 on to another house, and then on to another house; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Do I understand you to have said that the same sort of scene was

21 repeated over and over again?

22 A. Yes, the same scene.

23 Q. Could you personally hear shooting coming from other areas in the

24 village?

25 A. Yes. I heard shooting from many parts of the village. There was

Page 8244

1 a great deal of shooting there.

2 Q. Do you know what, if anything, happened to the houses?

3 A. We would burn most of the houses. Even I was given an order to

4 burn a house and a bus.

5 Q. Did you do that?

6 A. Yes. Yes, I did that.

7 Q. Who ordered you to do that?

8 A. Milan Nedeljkovic, Corporal Milan Nedeljkovic. I remember that

9 scene very well.

10 Q. Describe to us how it is that you set fire to a house.

11 A. I had a cigarette lighter in my pocket. When we entered the

12 house, he said to me that I should burn the house. I took a towel. The

13 towel was dry. I set it on fire, and I held it in my hand until it was

14 well on fire. And the house was made of wood, so I just threw this towel

15 into the corner and the house caught fire immediately.

16 As for the bus, I set fire only to one seat and then all the other

17 seats were ablaze too. And the house burned down immediately as well.

18 They had already gone to torch other houses.

19 Q. Sir, just to summarise this particular incident in Trnje, did you

20 later on find out from the other soldiers about what they had done, and

21 are you able to give the Court an estimate as to how many people were

22 killed in Trnje during this cleansing operation, as you put it?

23 A. I did not find out how many people were killed, but I saw a great

24 many people in that village. But I did not find out what the actual

25 number was.

Page 8245

1 Q. All right. Sir, how long did you stay in the area of Trnje?

2 A. Five days.

3 Q. And when the operation was over, do I understand you returned to

4 Prizren?

5 A. Yes. We went back to Prizren, to the barracks, but we left the

6 barracks straight away after that.

7 Q. When you got back to the barracks, had something happened to the

8 barracks that made you leave it straight away?

9 A. Yes. The barracks were destroyed, completely destroyed, and there

10 was nowhere we could sleep. And we didn't even dare sleep there either.

11 Q. Do you know how it was destroyed?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Tell us.

14 A. NATO destroyed the barracks.

15 Q. As a result of that, what, if anything, did the soldiers who were

16 normally headquartered at those barracks, what did you do? Where did you

17 go?

18 A. We received orders that the first village below the barracks, we

19 received orders to expel all the civilians living in that village --

20 well, it was a settlement really, not really a village. But that's what

21 we did. And we went into the houses there, and that's where we lived for

22 two and a half months.

23 Q. Upon your arrival in this -- back to Prizren where you took up

24 residence in the houses, were you at one point ordered to collect a

25 civilian truck?

Page 8246

1 A. Yes. Yes, we were ordered. Not one order, several orders to that

2 effect.

3 Q. Where did you go?

4 A. We went through that settlement. There were lots of trucks there

5 and many vehicles that the civilians had left behind, and there was even a

6 place where there were some civilians. That's where we took it from.

7 Q. Did you attend at a particular company who then provided you with

8 a truck?

9 A. No. We did it all ourselves.

10 Q. All right. Where did you take the truck?

11 A. We took the truck for army purposes because we weren't allowed to

12 use military vehicles ourselves. If we used military vehicles, NATO would

13 have targeted us. But like this, the civilian vehicles were all right

14 because NATO didn't want to target the civilian vehicles, so this was a

15 sort of mask.

16 Q. Sir, this truck that you obtained, was there also a box in any of

17 these procedures? Do you remember a large box, and if so, how did you

18 come into possession of it?

19 A. That was a different truck. What you're mentioning now refers to

20 a different truck.

21 Q. I'm sorry. I should have directed you to the truck I'm interested

22 in. So you went and got a truck, a civilian truck, but on another

23 occasion, did you end up getting a truck with a large box?

24 A. On the sixth day, when we returned to Prizren.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 8247

1 A. I received orders from the commander, my commander, to go to the

2 public Higijena Cleaning Company and take a civilian truck, which is what

3 I did. I didn't know what the truck was for, but these people from the

4 Higijena company or the cleaning company, they had placed a large box or

5 large package in it. I didn't look to see what was inside, all I was told

6 was where to take it to. And this particular truck was supposed to be

7 used to load up all the dead bodies we found from the village of Trnje,

8 and that's what we did.

9 Q. So did you take the truck to Trnje?

10 A. Yes. Yes, we took the truck to Trnje.

11 Q. And when you got to Trnje, did you in fact collect dead bodies and

12 put them in the truck?

13 A. Yes. We collected a part of the dead bodies that we came across,

14 whereas the rest, the other dead bodies, weren't found there. We didn't

15 find them there.

16 Q. What dead bodies did you find, and what -- did you later find out

17 what was in that box that you hadn't looked in?

18 A. Yes. When we were collecting up the dead bodies, we found the

19 corpses that I saw had been killed, and we collected -- that is to say, in

20 the box there were body bags, bags for dead bodies, and I was ordered to

21 collect up dead bodies in the fields and to place them in these body bags.

22 But we just found the bodies of five women, and we left the old people out

23 in the fields. But we picked up the women, loaded them up onto the truck

24 and drove them off to a hill where we buried them.

25 Q. All right. I'm interested in the location where you buried these

Page 8248

1 people. You went from Trnje. How far away did you take these bodies and

2 how did you get there?

3 JUDGE MAY: He refers to "they." It's not clear who he's

4 referring to.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

6 Q. You've told us you were ordered to go to this Higijena Cleaning

7 Company. Were you alone or were you with other soldiers and were there a

8 group of you?

9 A. I went to get the truck alone, but when I went there, one of the

10 soldiers had to take me there in a car for me to get this. So in actual

11 fact, I took the truck myself.

12 Q. And when you went to Trnje, were there other truckloads of

13 soldiers coming with you, or were you by yourself, or what?

14 A. Yes. There were two military trucks. They were full of soldiers,

15 and I was the driver of this one civilian truck where there were no

16 soldiers. They served as an escort for me.

17 Q. And who actually loaded the bodies of these five women into the

18 truck? Was that you personally or were these soldiers who were with you

19 assisting you or were they the ones doing it and you were just driving?

20 Tell us.

21 A. All the soldiers who were in the trucks, including myself. I took

22 part in loading up the bodies. Some of the soldiers weren't able to look

23 at these dead people, and they didn't even want to get close to them, but

24 I could. I didn't mind doing that at all.

25 Q. So you loaded the bodies into the body bags, put them in the

Page 8249

1 truck, and then you took them to this location you were about to tell us

2 about. Briefly, sir, did you drive a long way or how did you know where

3 to take them?

4 A. I didn't know where we were supposed to take them, but we took

5 them towards Dragash.

6 Q. All right. And where, eventually, did you stop and bury the

7 bodies? Can you tell us approximately what that location was?

8 A. On the map?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. I could tell you on the map.

11 Q. Yes, please.

12 A. I can't tell you on the map. I can't show you that place there,

13 but it was towards the Stojanovic watchtower, watch hut.

14 Q. And is that near a border of anything, sir?

15 A. Yes. It's between the border and Prizren.

16 Q. The border to where?

17 A. To Albania.

18 Q. Now, sir, just moving on, I understand that you took a somewhat

19 circuitous route off the road; is that correct? You went off the main

20 road onto a small dirt road; is that correct, sir?

21 A. Yes, that's correct. That was the road towards the Stojanovic

22 watchtower. It was a macadamised road surface, not an asphalt road. The

23 army, the soldiers who were with us, received orders from my commander to

24 provide security around this locality, to prevent anybody from moving

25 upwards the way we had gone.

Page 8250

1 The second truck was full of soldiers, us soldiers, and they

2 provided security for the area where we buried the dead. And --

3 Q. And was a grave dug? Was it a deep grave? Tell us about the

4 burial itself, very briefly.

5 A. We dug a shallow grave in great haste, and we aligned all these

6 five and buried them. And we made it look as if there was nothing there.

7 Q. Before leaving, did you mark the spot in any way?

8 A. Yes. I threw part of the motor, truck motor, there when nobody

9 was looking.

10 Q. And were there any non-commissioned officers or officers with you

11 at the time you did this?

12 A. Yes. There was my commander and two NCOs, and they killed those

13 people.

14 Q. I'm sorry, that's not clear: Who killed what people?

15 A. The ones we had buried.

16 Q. Ah. So the people with you on the burial were the ones who killed

17 the people who were being buried. Is that what you're telling us?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Very briefly, sir --

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I'm at paragraph 21.

21 Q. You've told us your main job was that of a chauffeur or a driver;

22 is that correct? Did you ever chauffeur Gavrilovic's deputy?

23 A. Yes, I did. I drove him around, Gavrilovic's deputy.

24 Q. And did you ever go to Prizren? And if so, do you know the

25 purpose of the trips to Prizren?

Page 8251

1 A. Well, I drove him mostly to meetings that Bozidar Delic ordered.

2 They had to meet every evening.

3 Q. Would you wait for him to attend the meeting and then drive him

4 home?

5 A. Yes. I didn't drive him home; I would drive him to our area.

6 Q. I'm sorry. That was an expression. You took him there and

7 brought him back is what I meant. Is that what you did?

8 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. And on occasion, would you have a conversation with Gavrilovic's

10 deputy about some of the things that may have gone on at those meetings?

11 A. Well, I didn't actually talk about the things that they were

12 talking about, but I assumed. I was quite close to him, actually, so I

13 was able to understand him and understand what he was saying and the whole

14 story of what he was saying.

15 Q. As a result of the tidbits of information you obtained by

16 chauffeuring this gentleman, did you know what was happening with respect

17 to Albanians in Kosovo?

18 A. Could you repeat that question?

19 Q. As a result of what you learned by chauffeuring this gentleman

20 around, did you form any conclusion about what was happening to the

21 Albanians in Kosovo?

22 A. Yes. The Albanians in Kosovo, as far as I was able to understand

23 from the stories he told, the plan was to expel all the Albanians from

24 Kosovo so that none of them should remain there, as far as I was able to

25 gather from what he said.

Page 8252












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8253

1 Q. Was that fact ever discussed among your fellow soldiers in

2 barracks and places like that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Sir, do you know what happened to the Albanian refugees at the

5 border, and if so, what do you know and how do you know it?

6 A. At the border crossing of Vrbnica, the Albanians would mostly

7 cross over that border, and the policemen who were there would take away

8 the documents from the Albanians and they would send them to Albania,

9 whereas the documents that were confiscated were set fire to on the spot

10 straight away.

11 Q. Do you know why they did that? Were they under the orders or was

12 this on their own initiative or -- do you know?

13 A. Yes, they had orders.

14 Q. Do you know why they took the documents away?

15 A. So that in case these people came back, that they would have no

16 proof of ever having lived there.

17 Q. I see. Now, sir, you were -- you've told us about getting trucks

18 and things like that. You're a driver. Were you aware of any theft of

19 vehicles, and if so, were you involved in any?

20 A. Yes. There was a lot of theft of vehicles. Actually, it wasn't

21 theft. Well, it was done on purpose. The vehicles would be taken away

22 from the people, mostly vehicles -- heavy-duty vehicles to be used by the

23 army later on, and I took part in a great many of them, of these thefts.

24 Q. How? Did you get the keys from the people or how were you able to

25 make the vehicles go?

Page 8254

1 A. Well, mostly we took cars where there were no people, where the

2 people had been expelled. So we couldn't -- we didn't have the keys. And

3 we would break down the locks and use wires to ignite them, to set the

4 engines running.

5 Q. I see. Now, you've told us about trucks. How about cars? Were

6 any cars hot-wired in the same way, and for what purpose?

7 A. Yes. Many good cars were stolen, too, which the officers used to

8 go to their meetings in and for their own personal use too.

9 Q. And finally, sir, I understand that you left Kosovo on the 6th of

10 June; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. I left on the 6th of June. I left because I asked -- if you

12 want me to tell you why I asked to leave?

13 Q. Please.

14 A. I asked to leave so that I should not take any property from

15 Albanian houses to officers' homes in Serbia. I didn't want to do that,

16 to take out things from the Albanian houses and fetch and carry for the

17 officers, because the officers would take things away from the Albanian

18 houses which were well-furnished, well-supplied, and they used that

19 property later on.

20 Q. On the 6th of June, was that just before the VJ evacuation of

21 Kosovo?

22 A. Yes. Six days before the end of the bombing and the withdrawal of

23 the army.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I've already dealt with paragraph 25,

25 so those are my questions for the witness. Thank you.

Page 8255

1 Q. Thank you, Witness.

2 JUDGE MAY: Cross-examination after the adjournment.

3 Witness K32, we're going to adjourn for 20 minutes. Could you

4 remember in this and any other adjournment there may be not to speak to

5 anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the

6 members of the Prosecution team. Would you be back, please, in 20

7 minutes.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, some general facts. Let's take a

13 look at those particulars. You just wrote that you were a Muslim by

14 religion. What is your ethnicity?

15 A. I'm a Bosniak.

16 Q. A Bosniak. You say that your current profession is driver. Where

17 do you work? You don't have to tell us the town.

18 A. In Yugoslavia.

19 Q. So you're working privately, are you, as a private driver?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. From what it says in your statement, you were an army deserter; is

22 that right?

23 A. Yes. But I didn't flee from the army. I was released from the

24 army as an award, but I decided not to go back to the army, and your army

25 treated that as being desertion, so I was treated as a deserter.

Page 8256

1 Q. Well, that's not -- I'm not contesting that, I'm just reading

2 from your statement where you say, "I went back to Montenegro but my

3 father and I decided that I wouldn't go back to Kosovo." And then you

4 say: "The whole town was against us going back."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. "I decided to desert, and I spent the next three months at home."

7 That's what you say.

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 Q. I see. So that's why you asked for protective measures?

15 A. And they're extremely --

16 JUDGE MAY: No need --

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And there is --

19 JUDGE MAY: There is no need for you to answer these questions.

20 Mr. Milosevic, get on to something else.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: And I wonder whether perhaps we could redact the

22 location he just referred to.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't understand that the town

25 was excluded, that we weren't allowed to mention the town either, that it

Page 8257

1 is restricted information. I just thought this referred to the name and

2 surname and voice and image of this person.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. But tell me, please, as you have been accusing your commanders a

5 great deal here, Colonel Bozidar Delic, a case in point, and you say on

6 many occasions what you allegedly heard and saw, do you, as a military

7 deserter, consider that this hatred of yours and the shame and the time

8 you spent in prison you owe to Colonel Delic or to your own conduct and

9 behaviour?

10 A. I don't owe it to my conduct or my behaviour or Colonel Delic --

11 I'm not sure I understood your question. Could you repeat it?

12 Q. I asked you whether these feelings of yours, your sentiments as a

13 deserter from the army, because quite obviously you have been speaking a

14 great deal about Colonel Delic, do you consider that this hatred that you

15 feel and the shame you spent -- the shame of the time you spent in prison

16 and your desertion and anything, was that due to Colonel Delic or to your

17 own behaviour and conduct?

18 A. Neither. I don't owe that to either Colonel Delic or my own

19 conduct and behaviour.

20 Q. Now, in view of these undoubted feelings that you have towards

21 that brigade commander in particular, and in view of your conduct when you

22 deserted --

23 JUDGE MAY: What feelings? Now, you cannot misrepresent the

24 evidence. He said he didn't owe it to Colonel Delic. It's you are saying

25 he has ill feelings towards the colonel. If you want to represent that to

Page 8258

1 him, you must ask him, "Do you harbour ill feelings towards Colonel

2 Delic?" if that's your case. But you can't simply represent it as

3 something that's a fact when it's not been established.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, as far as I understand it,

5 this protected witness is protected with respect to his name, his image,

6 and voice, but he's not protected from my questions. So my question was

7 as follows: In view of this relationship that you had --

8 JUDGE MAY: What relationship? Mr. Milosevic, I'm not going to

9 allow you to misrepresent evidence and to ask questions which are not

10 allowed and are not fair. Now, if you are going to -- if you want to

11 represent that this witness is giving evidence about Colonel Delic because

12 he feels some form of vengeance against him, then you must put it to the

13 witness so that he can answer it. What you can't do is to represent

14 something as a fact which you've not put it. But since you won't do it, I

15 will.

16 What is said, Witness K32, is you are not telling the truth about

17 Colonel Delic because you harbour some feelings of vengeance against him

18 because you were locked up as a deserter. Now, is there any truth in that

19 or not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not here to take vengeance on

21 Delic. I don't hate Delic at all. I came here for other reasons. My

22 feelings towards Delic -- I mean, there is not the tiniest bit of hatred

23 towards him. After all, I know what kind of a man Delic is. And he's not

24 the one who locked me up in prison. It was other units that did.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8259

1 Q. All right. Before that, you were in that unit, and you returned

2 to the same unit; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You started your testimony by testifying about your stay in the

5 village of Damjane where you say that you spent two and a half months

6 within the second combat group. On the map, it is evident that the

7 village of Damjane is just by the state border towards Albania. Is that

8 right?

9 So do you know that at the time when you were there, there were

10 many incursions by groups of Albanian terrorists across the border of the

11 Republic of Albania into the territory of our country? Armed groups that

12 were carrying out acts of terrorism, and armed groups that, in addition to

13 committing acts of terrorism, smuggled large quantities of weapons from

14 Albania. Are you aware of that?

15 A. I am aware that these people were killed on Albanian territory,

16 those who allegedly tried to cross the border, because our army had

17 already moved two kilometres into Albanian territory. I know that for

18 sure because there was no Albanian army on the border, so I know that they

19 could ambush them there. I know there were ambushes and everything.

20 Q. As far as ambushes are concerned, in defending one's border,

21 ambushes are a legitimate form of defending one's borders. I imagine that

22 is clear to you.

23 A. I don't know about that, whether they were legitimate, because if

24 they were legitimate, then I think that the people who live in Kosovo

25 would know about that.

Page 8260

1 Q. Well, you see, you are probably unaware of this, but I have to put

2 this to you in the form of a question. It relates to an event that

3 occurred when about 150 members of the KLA crossed the border with large

4 quantities of weapons. They entered an ambush. Quite a few of them were

5 killed in the ambush. Some were arrested. The others escaped. Even the

6 OSCE said this was a legitimate ambush in defending the border.

7 Are you aware of that?

8 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

9 Q. All right. Let's go on, because I imagine that my time will be

10 limited, but that's only tomorrow.

11 When you arrived in the village of Damjane, there were civilians

12 there, the local population; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that is in the immediate vicinity of the border. You say in

15 your statement that Delic said, and you actually quoted him: "Get rid of

16 these civilians from this village. It doesn't matter where they'll go.

17 They can't stay here any more."

18 Now, I'm asking you, since this is at the border where things that

19 we mentioned had been happening, did he order the civilians to be removed

20 so that they would be taken out of the zone of combat operations so as not

21 to come in the way of combat operations or, rather, so that they would not

22 be jeopardised by the combat operations, that they would not be wounded or

23 killed or have something happen to them?

24 A. I did not quote Bozidar Delic as you just said this. I quoted a

25 soldier, a friend of mine, who heard him personally say that civilians

Page 8261

1 should be expelled from their houses.

2 As for why they were being expelled from their houses, the army --

3 the army, I think, thought that these villagers that lived there might

4 attack them. It's not for the safety of the citizens. Civilians could

5 not be safe there at any rate because soldiers were shooting every night,

6 so they had to leave anyway. They were shooting at these houses.

7 Q. All right. But I asked you whether that means that Delic ordered

8 civilians to be removed from the zone of combat operations.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That is quite clear.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please slow down for the

12 interpretation. They're being overlapped.

13 JUDGE MAY: Both of you are being asked to slow down for the

14 interpretation.

15 Witness K32, it's difficult for you, you're not used to giving

16 evidence, but could you remember that this has got to be interpreted, so

17 when you've heard the question, just pause a minute and let the

18 interpreters finish and then answer.

19 Mr. Milosevic, you know this already.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. All right. At that time, that is to say when civilians were

22 removed from the zone of combat operations, did anybody maltreat these

23 civilians? Did anybody kill any one of these civilians?

24 A. There was no killing, but there was maltreatment.

25 Q. What kind of maltreatment? Could you please be so kind as to

Page 8262

1 describe that?

2 A. In neighbouring villages where the army would go to the shops,

3 they would take everything without paying for it. Then also if they would

4 catch someone, they would interrogate him real well. They would even slap

5 him around a bit, regardless of whether this person would be young or old.

6 Q. All right. Did you personally see somebody entering a shop?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Taking goods and not paying for these goods?

9 A. Yes, I did see that.

10 Q. Did you do that too?

11 A. I did that too, because I cannot separate myself from my comrades.

12 Q. Tell me, where were your positions, in the village itself or near

13 it?

14 A. These are villages -- or, rather, this village is scattered about,

15 so it was not a densely populated village. I mean, if you're referring to

16 the village itself. All the houses were abandoned and the army lived in

17 the houses.

18 Q. I didn't really understand what you were saying.

19 A. The houses were abandoned, and the army slept there.

20 Q. They slept in abandoned houses?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. What about the positions? The positions were outside the village?

23 A. No, no. Also there.

24 JUDGE MAY: Now, you've both been told to slow down.

25 JUDGE KWON: Just a minute, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 8263

1 Witness K32, I notice that you just said that you also took the

2 goods without paying, from the shop. Is that correct?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

4 JUDGE KWON: Were you told to do so from your superiors?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Actually, when my comrades did

6 that -- I mean, I didn't want to separate myself from my comrades in any

7 way, so all of us together acted that way.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. All right. We heard about what you said, that you heard from a

10 soldier about Delic's order. What was the name of this soldier who heard

11 this order of Delic's?

12 A. I can't tell you that.

13 Q. What is that? You can't remember?

14 A. I can't remember this very incident because it has been four years

15 now, four and a half. How long has it been?

16 Q. All right. So you are quoting in your statement. You say that

17 you cannot remember?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you gave the statement in April 2002, on the 25th and 26th.

20 So there is a very small time difference.

21 A. But in the statement, I didn't mention the soldier's name.

22 Q. I'm not saying that you mentioned the soldier's name, but you say

23 that you cannot remember that. So as a matter of fact, you are quoting.

24 A. No.

25 Q. But you are quoting Delic's alleged words after four years, and

Page 8264

1 you never actually heard them; right? And these words were conveyed to

2 you by a soldier whose name you do not remember; is that right?

3 A. I do not remember the name.

4 JUDGE MAY: Wait a minute. Right.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember the name, because

6 he was not a close friend. It's not that we were together all the time.

7 So there was a lot of soldiers there who were deployed there, and I

8 brought them food and water, and they all knew me very well. As I was

9 distributing food, I even had time to chat with people.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So this was a close friend of yours.

12 A. No, this was not a close friend of mine, but I know that the man

13 is from Vranje.

14 Q. All right. Tell me, when the civilians left the area, you say

15 that no one was killed, no one was shot at, no one was wounded.

16 A. No, no, no, no one was.

17 Q. Do you know where they went from that area? Do you know anything

18 about that?

19 A. No. No, I don't. I think they went to stay with their relatives,

20 in Djakovica or wherever people may have had relatives. Perhaps in a

21 village or whatever.

22 Q. You assume that they went to stay with relatives in other places?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. All right. On page 3, paragraph 2 of your statement, you say that

25 you remember that an officer took a sequestered truck to a civilian house

Page 8265

1 and things were loaded into this truck from that house and they were

2 driven to Serbia. That's what you say. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You saw that personally?

5 A. Yes. I saw them carrying TV sets, video recorders, et cetera,

6 from the houses.

7 Q. Who was that officer?

8 A. For the most part, it was the chief officers in that combat group

9 where we were deployed.

10 Q. All right. You say that you remember an officer.

11 A. No.

12 Q. You said you saw that. So since you know these chief officers,

13 please give all their names in order. Who is the officer who did that?

14 A. Mr. Milosevic, officers changed every ten days, so if I could

15 remember all their names and surnames, it would really be a good thing.

16 Q. All right. But you claim that in your brigade, officers changed

17 every ten days.

18 A. Yes, ten.

19 Q. What was that?

20 A. Every ten days or every week, it depended. And it wasn't only

21 lieutenant colonels who took concerns. Also majors, captains perhaps. At

22 any rate, people knew who the commanding officer was.

23 Q. All right. That assertion that officers changed, took turns every

24 ten days in your brigade.

25 Now, tell me, on page 3, paragraph 4, you say that your combat

Page 8266












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8267

1 group, between August 1st and 3rd, was involved in a mop-up operation; is

2 that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell me, what is this mop-up operation? What were you mopping up?

5 Which terrain? And since you say that you were moving along the road

6 between Djakovica and Klina --

7 A. Yes. We left Djakovica and moved for about 15 kilometres, and

8 then we started mopping up these villages. I did not take part in the

9 mop-up, but I was distributing water, because of course, the army needed

10 water. So I was within that establishment too, or, rather, within that

11 column.

12 Q. What is this mop-up? What is this?

13 A. Milosevic, mop-up is when the army starts killing the civilians

14 there. And they thought that there were terrorists there. And I heard

15 that there were terrorists there.

16 JUDGE MAY: Witness K24 [sic], Mr. Milosevic -- 32. "Mr.

17 Milosevic" here. You're in a court.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise if I made some kind

19 of a mistake.

20 JUDGE MAY: No need to apologise. But best of all, don't --

21 although the accused is asking the questions, direct your answers towards

22 the Court rather than having a discussion with him. I know it's difficult

23 to do that, but if you remember you're answering to the Court, it would

24 make it easier.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8268

1 Q. All right. During this examination-in-chief, at one point you

2 said -- I will find that quotation of yours if necessary, but you will

3 remember that you said that that meant eliminating terrorists and removing

4 civilians from that zone. Not killing civilians, removing civilians. And

5 now you are saying that this mop-up meant killing civilians.

6 A. That went without saying.

7 Q. Why do you think that that went without saying, that mopping up

8 meant killing civilians?

9 A. Mr. Milosevic, when the army sets out, it doesn't look whether

10 there are terrorists there or not. Everybody is involved. I was there.

11 You were not there. You should have come there. You should have seen it.

12 Q. All right. You were moving from Djakovica to Klina along the road

13 there in a column. Did I understand this correctly? How were you going?

14 I mean, were you driving a truck?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where were you, towards the end of the column? Because you were

17 in the supplies division.

18 A. I was at the beginning, the second or the third vehicle, and Delic

19 was the first one.

20 Q. So with your supply vehicle, you were right behind the commander's

21 vehicle.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So what were you driving, then?

24 A. If I say so -- well, it doesn't matter. It was a military vehicle

25 that I was driving. Never mind. Never mind. It was a water truck.

Page 8269

1 Q. A water truck with fuel?

2 A. With water.

3 Q. Oh, I see, with water.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, if I might just interject. The

5 cross-examination appears to be being taken directly from the statement,

6 and some of the cross-examination appears to be talking about nuances of

7 what is in the statement and what is not. Would the Court like to follow

8 along with the statement and determine later on whether or not it ought to

9 be marked as an exhibit?

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have the statement. I've certainly got a

11 copy. We have copies of it already.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that the Court had that.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Did I understand it correctly that the infantry were at the end of

16 the column? Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right, then. What was this mopping up and who did the mopping

19 up if the infantry was at the tail end of the column?

20 A. Well, the column -- there were 11 or 12 trucks to the column.

21 It's not a kilometre in length, it's --

22 Q. All right. On that occasion, were there any attacks on your

23 combat group by the KLA?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you in a position to witness any attack by the KLA on your

Page 8270

1 combat group, on part of your combat group, on members of your combat

2 group in the broadest sense?

3 A. No. I'm not a witness to that, nor did I ever see a KLA soldier

4 attack during that offensive in the course of those days.

5 Q. Well, when did you see KLA soldiers?

6 A. I just saw dead KLA soldiers in the barracks. That's the only

7 time I saw members of the KLA in uniform. The ones that you said a moment

8 ago were killed at the border and were brought in from the border region

9 to the barracks, that was the first time that I saw any KLA soldiers.

10 Q. So you never had -- there was never any fighting. You never

11 fought any KLA members.

12 A. Just one. But when it comes to civilian clothing and people in

13 civilian clothing, I can't really say if they were soldiers or not. But,

14 yes, there were alleged fighting, but we would usually come across hunting

15 rifles with those people. So there wasn't any heavy weaponry or anything

16 like that.

17 Q. Well, what kind of KLA weapons did you see and find, KLA ones,

18 apart from the hunting rifles?

19 A. Well, we'd come across hunting rifles. We would find those. And,

20 for example, in one particular village, I found a new hunting rifle

21 myself. And what can you do with a hunting rifle? Nothing. All he can

22 do is wound me.

23 Q. All right. On page 3, paragraph 5, you claim that your combat

24 group along the way captured two Albanians who were armed with automatic

25 rifles. Is that correct?

Page 8271

1 A. We did capture two Albanians, that's right, but I didn't see their

2 rifles at all. The soldier I gave water to, well, he told me this story,

3 that they had come across these people, that they were armed, that they

4 interrogated them, that they told them everything and then cut off their

5 ears and killed them straight away, as soon as they cut their ears off.

6 Q. Let's just clarify one point. It says here on page 3: "My combat

7 group managed to capture two Albanians in a cornfield along the way and

8 they were treated as being members of the KLA, Liberation Army of Kosovo,

9 and most probably that's what they were. I heard that they were wearing

10 civilian clothing and that they were armed with automatic weapons but that

11 they did not shoot at us. They questioned them for two minutes, and then

12 they shot at them in the nape of the neck. I heard that a soldier who was

13 responsible for their killing, et cetera, et cetera, they left the bodies

14 by the roadside, and I heard over the radio an invitation for the

15 coroner's truck to come in from Djakovica." You later saw two Gypsies

16 collecting up the bodies.

17 So you saw these bodies, did you?

18 A. Yes, I saw them.

19 Q. Very well, then. How can you say that you heard they were wearing

20 civilian clothing and not say that you saw them in civilian clothing? If

21 you saw them, you must have seen whether they were wearing civilian

22 clothes or not. Why do you say, "I heard they were wearing civilian

23 clothes"?

24 A. Mr. Milosevic, perhaps I didn't remember saying I heard them

25 having civilian clothing but I did see those civilians with my own eyes.

Page 8272

1 And I heard from the soldiers. I heard that from the soldiers. Perhaps

2 when they were making their statements, they wrote it down wrongly.

3 So when I talked to this soldier, I asked him, "What's this here?"

4 And he told me everything. He told me about the whole situation, what had

5 happened. And he heard over radio communication, or, rather, he told me

6 that they used the radio to call in the coroner's van.

7 Q. All right. So you, then, saw two Albanians who were loaded up by

8 these coroners who had come from Djakovica.

9 A. Yes, I watched that for two hours.

10 Q. Right. But you saw them, you saw them lying on the ground, and

11 you saw them being loaded up. But you weren't present when they were

12 killed, and you don't actually know how they were killed.

13 A. That's right, I don't, but I heard how they were killed.

14 Q. Oh, you heard how they were killed?

15 A. Yes, right on the spot where I saw them dead, that's where.

16 Q. Did you see what they looked like? Did you see their wounds?

17 A. Yes, I did. I saw that they had no ears, and one of them was face

18 down on his stomach on the ground, and I saw this horrible wound in the

19 nape of his neck, and it looked awful.

20 Q. All right. You even state the name of the person responsible for

21 that. Did you see the officer whom you mention killing these two men?

22 JUDGE MAY: Just pause. The witness's evidence was that he

23 hadn't, that he heard this. That's what he said.

24 Yes, if you want to add something.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The officer who did this, whom I

Page 8273

1 saw, was the only one who had a pistol on him, and the shooting was done

2 from a pistol, and it was a Colt. I know that for a fact. And I saw the

3 soldier pointing to it, although I can't remember the name and surname of

4 that officer. He wasn't my superior, my commanding officer. He was from

5 quite a different unit. He was an infantryman and I was in a different

6 unit altogether.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. All right. This is the first I've heard that officers of the

9 Yugoslav army use Colts as weapons. As far as I know, they use pistols

10 produced in Yugoslavia. That is the standard issue type of weapon. Where

11 did he have this Colt?

12 A. He had a really nice pistol, this Colt which was attached to his

13 belt, a big Colt one, with that round barrel thing.

14 Q. So the officer had non-standard issue weapon; is that right?

15 A. Well, how should I know whether it was standard issue or not.

16 Q. All right. Tell me this, then, because we've established this

17 point: When you were moving from Djakovica to Klina, there were no KLA

18 attacks on you, were there?

19 A. No, there weren't.

20 Q. Right. Now, how do you know that these two Albanians spoke about

21 the existence of KLA trenches somewhere and that they said that there were

22 about 200 KLA members in those trenches? How do you come to know that?

23 A. The soldiers who arrested them in the cornfield, they brought them

24 down there where I brought water for them to drink, and the soldier that I

25 supplied with water, he told me the whole story, and I was interested in

Page 8274

1 knowing. I asked him about it, and he told me the whole story, just how

2 it was.

3 Q. All right. So you weren't there when they were questioned, but

4 the soldier you gave some water to told you what they had said, that they

5 had said that there were trenches in the vicinity and that there were 200

6 KLA members there?

7 A. Well, he didn't say the exact number of KLA members. I'm not

8 quite sure he said KLA, but he said that there was a trench 200 metres

9 long and that there were people up there who were still in the trench.

10 Q. You say here what I maintain. During their interrogation, they

11 told of a 250-metre KLA trench and there were 200 people there. So it

12 wasn't 200 metres, it was 200 people and 250 metres. That's what you say

13 in your statement. So is that correct what you wrote down here in the

14 statement?

15 A. Yes, that's correct. That's approximate, but the statement's

16 correct.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. K32, I have to emphasise again, because two of

18 you speak the same language, so it's very difficult to follow, for the

19 interpreters to follow you, so could you put a pause between the question

20 and answer.

21 Yes. Yes, please.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. On page 3, paragraph 6 of your statement, you say the following:

24 That only -- "I was only about ten metres away from Colonel Delic, and so

25 I heard him clearly issue orders." You said this during your testimony

Page 8275

1 here this morning as well, when questioned. "I heard him order the tank

2 driver to turn its gun around and point to a designated house in the

3 village," and the house was some 15 kilometres away from Djakovica -- the

4 village was.

5 Now, tell me, how did you happen to hear that? Was Delic standing

6 next to the tank or how? Where was he? Where was he when he issued this

7 order to the tank driver?

8 A. Delic was at the head of the column. He was the first man moving

9 along in a small jeep. The tank was the second vehicle in order, right

10 after him. The column was moving slowly. He stopped at one point and

11 stopped the column too. And then he looked towards the houses. So we all

12 got out. I got out too. If there was an attack of any kind, not to

13 enter. I was in the third vehicle from the tank. So it was very close

14 by. And I was watching him carefully, and I saw him looking towards the

15 house and then told the tank to turn the gun around, and that's what the

16 tank driver did, and then he targeted the house. And you could see that

17 house very well. It was clearly visible.

18 The first shell that hit the house, well, nothing happened after

19 that. Then he waited awhile, a short while, maybe about five minutes, and

20 we were all standing around, watching, when he gave his second order and

21 said, "Fire again. Fire another one." And when the second shell hit, the

22 civilians started leaving the houses. And I could see this very well.

23 Some of them were wearing white. There was a woman with a white piece of

24 cloth like the Albanian women wear. And I saw two children as well. They

25 were running behind the house towards the woods. And then he gave the

Page 8276

1 next order. He gave this order to some of the infantrymen and said, "You

2 take that route. You go the other way, and we'll meet up." And he showed

3 this on the map. And he said, "Start the mopping up."

4 Q. And this is all that you heard Delic say? You heard him say all

5 that, did you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How you heard him issue the order to the tank driver and all the

8 rest of it?

9 A. Yes. He was three metres away from the tank.

10 Q. Tell me this now --

11 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop. Yes. Yes.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. As you know, the crew, the tank crew, wears caps. They are

14 equipped with radio transmitters. They have headsets on their ears that

15 are built into these special tank caps, tank crew caps. So Delic didn't

16 order them to do this either via the radio or using the standard procedure

17 and equipment, but he was standing near the tank, and he shouted this out

18 to them and they acted upon his orders. How can you command a tank in

19 that way?

20 A. Every tank has its commander. Every commander or leader has on

21 the turret a place where he stands, the tank turret and his position, and

22 there are three soldiers in the tank listening to his orders. That means

23 that from this turret or hole in the turret, of course he can hear him, he

24 can tell him. And Delic was saying this to the person in charge in the

25 tank.

Page 8277

1 Q. All right. So this seems to be a very specific way of command

2 that you saw.

3 At the beginning when I asked you where you yourself were, whether

4 you were at the head or the tail end of the column, you said you were

5 right behind Delic's vehicle.

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. Now you said that behind Delic's vehicle, the jeep, there was a

8 tank and that you were the tank -- third vehicle from the tank. That's

9 what you just said.

10 Now, when were you say -- telling the truth, five minutes ago when

11 you said you were straight behind Delic's vehicle or now when --

12 JUDGE MAY: No. You're not going to confuse the witness in this

13 way.

14 No. There's no need to answer that.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He can't confuse me, because Delic's

16 was the only vehicle that could move around freely, round about the

17 column. So at one point, he took the lead, bypassed the column, and his

18 was the only vehicle that was allowed to move alongside the column.

19 So at one point he bypassed the whole column, took a detour and

20 came up at the head of the column and stopped the column quite normally.

21 And it's not important. A truck can break down, for example. And

22 so the one that was fourth in line might come up third in line. That kind

23 of thing happened. And when I was on my way back, I was the second

24 vehicle in line after the tank on our way back, when we returned from the

25 village. So this particular order wasn't important. But I was very close

Page 8278

1 by.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. All right, then. What was the village's name?

4 A. Meqe.

5 Q. What did you say?

6 A. Meqe.

7 Q. I see. Mece. Is that right up at the porter?

8 A. No. We're talking about the village that lies between Djakovica

9 and Klina.

10 Q. Djakovica and Klina, you say?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. You say that the tank fired at the house twice. Was the house hit

13 on both occasions?

14 A. Yes, because Colonel Delic emphasised that they should take

15 careful aim to ensure that they hit their target and not miss.

16 Q. Was there any specific thing in that house, anything special?

17 A. No. I didn't notice anything special there, nor did I see any

18 kind of trenches or anything around the house. Nothing special. It was

19 an ordinary house just like any other. And there was even smoke coming

20 out of the chimney.

21 Q. Did you have an explanation as to why he wanted to target that

22 particular house?

23 A. No, I didn't. I was surprised why he wanted that particular house

24 targeted.

25 Q. And do you consider that a soldier ought to be informed of every

Page 8279

1 detail and have all information available to him, like the commander?

2 A. No. A soldier is a soldier. He doesn't have to know everything.

3 Q. Well, then, perhaps the commander might have had some other --

4 A. I didn't hear the rest of your question.

5 JUDGE MAY: You didn't hear it because --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was switched off.

7 JUDGE MAY: I switched it off for the interpreters.

8 Now, Mr. Milosevic, the next question.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I don't know whether you understood my question. Do you suppose

11 that a brigade commander has information -- do you think that he might

12 have had information of this house being a legitimate military target?

13 A. Well, perhaps he did have special information, separate

14 information that there were terrorists there, perhaps, but quite obviously

15 they weren't there when I was there.

16 Q. Now, from that village -- tell me this: From that village on that

17 occasion, did anybody open fire on you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Not even after this shooting?

20 A. No.

21 Q. But you claim that Delic ordered the infantries to take to the

22 woods and clean the area up of terrorists.

23 A. Well, I didn't hear him say "terrorists," but he said to clear it

24 up.

25 Q. During this morning's testimony, at one point you mentioned

Page 8280












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8281

1 terrorists.

2 A. Perhaps. I can't remember now.

3 Q. I understood you to say during your testimony today that the goal

4 was, the target was, or the object was to neutralise the terrorists.

5 A. What did you say?

6 Q. To neutralise the terrorists. Yes or no.

7 A. I don't know what you mean by --

8 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. We'll check and see whether any

9 mention of terrorists was made.

10 Mr. Ryneveld, can you help us out? My note, certainly in relation

11 to Mece, has no mention of terrorists, merely that Delic ordered the group

12 to stop and ordered the tank to fire a shell at the house, which was

13 fired. I don't remember any reference to mopping up terrorists. He

14 ordered the infantry to start mopping up, and they started the operation.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That, I believe, was in response to the

16 questions in chief. In fairness, I would refer you to the English version

17 of the statement, page 3, second paragraph from the bottom, with the words

18 starting: "Delic got on the radio..." And in fairness to the

19 cross-examination, the remainder of that sentence does refer to "and

20 search out terrorists." So I think it's legitimate cross-examination, but

21 I don't recall the witness using that phraseology in evidence, although he

22 may have.

23 JUDGE MAY: I don't recollect it myself. I have no note of it.

24 But the statement, now you refer me to it, thank you, says: "Delic got on

25 the radio and ordered our infantry to move up on foot into the forest and

Page 8282

1 clean up and search out terrorists. When he said clean up the area, I

2 understood the order meant they were to go up there and kill them all."

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I hope that we've

4 clarified this, because that's what it says in the statement in Serbian at

5 the end of page 3. Slightly changed in relation to what the

6 interpretation we heard now said. "Delic, via radio -- Delic got on the

7 radio and ordered our infantry to move up on foot into the house and clean

8 up."

9 A. No. He showed it this way with his hand. What we heard was radio

10 communication with other units.

11 Q. All right. Now I'm --

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld has a point. Yes?

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Although my recollection has failed me, our case

14 manager has found a note in the transcript and it appears that at line

15 11:06:57 starting at 47:

16 Q. When you say start their operation, did he tell

17 them what to do?

18 A. To start the mop-up operation, that's understood.

19 Q. What did you understand that order to mean to you?

20 A. I understood it to mean that the terrorists

21 should be killed. Well, I didn't understand whether

22 it applied to civilians too.

23 That is my -- that is what I understand was in the transcript this

24 morning. In order to be completely frank with the Court in response to

25 the question, that's what we found.

Page 8283

1 JUDGE MAY: So there was a reference to terrorists, but it was to

2 what the witness himself thought not to what Delic said.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Correct, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to object, Mr. May. When it

6 says here, "Delic ordered the infantry to go into the forest and clean up

7 and search out terrorists," that's not what he heard, that's what he

8 thought.

9 JUDGE MAY: Look, there are two different points. One is what the

10 witness said here this morning and the other is what he said in his

11 statement. We've now got it clarified which is which.

12 But I will ask the witness this: Your statement says that -

13 you've heard it read out - that Delic ordered the infantry to move up on

14 foot and clean up and search out terrorists. Did Delic, in fact, mention

15 the terrorists, since that's what you say in your statement?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He did not mention terrorists, but

17 he just ordered the clean-up to start. And all the army thought that that

18 is what was meant. That is what we all understood. Somebody had perhaps

19 heard that there were terrorists there, and we were all guessing. It's

20 not that I can say that I knew for sure that there were terrorists there.

21 I don't know.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. All right. The army, the soldiers as the executors, understood

24 the order of the commander to clean up the forest from terrorists, to find

25 terrorists; is that right?

Page 8284

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, tell me, which terrorists? If you claim that it was only

3 civilians that were in the village.

4 A. Which terrorists? Is that your question, which terrorists?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Well, for the most part they thought they were Albanian

7 terrorists, KLA, but in such a big offensive that there was not a single

8 one, not a single soldier of the KLA, that they did not capture a single

9 one, that's something I don't remember. I never heard of that either.

10 That is to say that if there were any terrorists, I would have heard about

11 it, but there wasn't a single one. So there was an offensive, some people

12 were killed, but no one was wearing a uniform.

13 Q. So you did not see, throughout the time you spent in Kosovo, you

14 did not see anyone wear a KLA uniform; is that right?

15 A. Yes. I did, actually, a woman in barracks at the border when you

16 said that they were captured out there. It was at that time. I just saw

17 that uniform in passing.

18 Q. All right. Since you were a truck driver, did you take part in

19 this operation of mopping up, as you called it, to go into the forest and

20 find the terrorists?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You stayed by your vehicle?

23 A. Yes. We were in the houses that had been abandoned. That's where

24 we slept.

25 Q. In your statement, you do not refer to this operation of mopping

Page 8285

1 up at all. Were there any casualties?

2 A. I know that a civilian policeman had been wounded.

3 Q. What does that mean, "civilian policeman"?

4 A. On the third day in the afternoon, when there was some attack,

5 three shots were heard, and then everybody shot in one direction. Now,

6 how this policeman was wounded, I didn't see that, but I did see that he

7 had been wounded and he was transferred immediately too.

8 Q. You didn't understand my question. I don't know what it means

9 when you say "civilian policeman." Are you referring to a member of the

10 regular police rather than the military police?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. So you are referring to a policeman.

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 JUDGE MAY: Just pause. Yes.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. All right. How much time did you spend in this brigade that was

17 commanded by Delic? You spent several months there; right?

18 A. Almost a year.

19 Q. A year. Do you have any knowledge about how many members of that

20 brigade were killed in fighting in Kosovo?

21 A. The last I knew at the time of the bombing and at the time when

22 there was no bombing, most soldiers got killed by mistakes made by the

23 military itself. The army was not properly equipped, and it was due to

24 the army that the soldiers lost their lives.

25 During the bombing, it would happen that our soldiers would enter

Page 8286

1 our own minefield, that our officers would not even have the plan of the

2 mine layout, and our soldiers could not get out. So that's how our

3 soldiers lost their lives. And the police, they did lose their lives, but

4 I don't know how.

5 Q. All right. Do you claim that none of the soldiers from your

6 brigade, or, rather, from the unit that you were in was not killed in

7 fighting with the KLA?

8 A. None were -- yes. I'm sorry. It would happen, before the

9 bombing, that an officer might get killed. There were some skirmishes

10 when I was away for three months. I know that some officers were killed.

11 But again, I cannot say who killed them because I don't know. But they

12 were killed in some skirmishes.

13 Q. And these soldiers, members of your unit who were killed, you

14 claim that they were killed from their own gunfire, the gunfire of their

15 own comrades because of poor organisation, et cetera.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that what you are asserting?

18 A. Yes. Poor organisation. Poor organisation all over.

19 Q. All right. And you stated that, from there, you went to a village

20 that was about three to five kilometres away from there. What was the

21 name of that village?

22 A. Rakovica. That's where I spent two nights in an abandoned house

23 that hadn't even been completed yet.

24 Q. You said that in that village, there were houses that were

25 burning; is that right? As you were getting closer to the village, these

Page 8287

1 houses were burning?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. All right. Now, tell me, what was the reason? Why were the

4 houses burning? Did you come to that village after a skirmish between the

5 KLA and the police, after a battle waged by a unit, or is it just a case

6 of someone lighting these houses?

7 A. We found the police there. That is to say I don't know whether

8 there was any fighting there. I know that we found the police there,

9 though. And I think that they were the ones who torched the houses.

10 Q. And did you try to find anything out, whether there was any

11 fighting in the village between the members of the police and the KLA?

12 A. No.

13 Q. All right. You say, then, after that, then, that night, as you

14 say, there was an exchange of gunfire between the members of the special

15 units of the police and someone?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That came from the forest, so you assumed it was the KLA?

18 A. Maybe yes, maybe no, I didn't see who it was.

19 Q. Who could it be shooting at the police, then?

20 A. That I don't know. I know we were shooting at a hill. All the

21 guns were pointing at that hill, and even a tank was used. It was a small

22 hill. I don't know. I don't know who was there, and I don't know where

23 the gunshots came from, because you can't really tell. I don't know. I

24 was not in a position. I mean, I really don't know where it came from

25 because I was in a house, in a house underneath the road, and this hill

Page 8288

1 was above the road. And I was watching that hill from the window

2 precisely at that time.

3 Q. All right. And then you noticed that a policeman was killed while

4 he stood on the bridge?

5 A. Yes, yes. He was not killed, though. He was wounded. At any

6 rate, he fell. I didn't even see him get wounded. But there was shooting

7 so that he would be saved. So there was shooting, and he lay on the

8 bridge. So the other policemen were trying to get him out. And then he

9 crawled all the way to the other policemen. That is to say, he went back.

10 Q. What do you mean he went back? This other policeman who tried to

11 get him out returned?

12 A. No, no. When there was shooting, the policemen who were going

13 towards him, they were shooting in some direction while he was crawling

14 towards them from the bridge. So he was going towards the end of the

15 bridge where the policemen were. And who shot at him, that I don't know.

16 Q. Let's clarify one thing. At page 4, at the end of the second

17 paragraph, you say that you did not see who was being shot at, and now I'm

18 quoting you: "We were only shooting in the direction where the gunfire

19 came from."

20 A. No, not in the direction from where the gunfire came from. In the

21 direction of the hill from where, allegedly, they were shooting at us.

22 Perhaps in the statement they didn't understand what I was saying or

23 something.

24 Q. I don't know how they understood you, but I didn't understand any

25 of what you've been saying, in terms of what you have been stating.

Page 8289

1 However, since I've learned to read, it says here: "One could not see

2 where we were shooting at. We were only shooting in the direction where

3 the gunfire was coming from."

4 A. Well, perhaps I said in the direction where the gunfire was coming

5 from. Well, "gunfire" and "shooting" is the same thing for me, so

6 shooting perhaps came from that hill. So I suppose that's where it was.

7 And that's what I stated.

8 Q. All right. All right. All right. Did you shoot too? Because

9 you said, "We were shooting."

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. So you had a double role; you were a truck driver and an

12 infantryman.

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. The next day, you went home on leave.

15 A. No. I was in barracks the next day. That evening, we were

16 returned to barracks in -- early in the morning, and the next day home.

17 Q. All right. And then you and your father decided you shouldn't go

18 back to your unit any more; is that right?

19 A. No, not then, when I came home.

20 Q. When you came home and when you saw your father, because your

21 father was not with you in Kosovo; is that right?

22 A. Yes. I returned home. We gave this a good thought, and then

23 that's it.

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 8290

1 [redacted]

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. How did you know that? How did you know that the entire town was,

4 that the entire town justified that decision of yours to desert?

5 A. Well, because the place I live in is a small place and everybody

6 knows me there, and they all knew where I was, so that they would all

7 shout out to me -- for example, I would say, "I'm planning to go back,"

8 and they said, "Don't go back, you silly man. There's war going on

9 there. Don't go back there." And so most of the people would say that to

10 me, that kind of thing. And so during those days, I decided not to return

11 any more. And I have a lot of Albanian relations as well, so that if I

12 were to go down there, if I were to go back of my own free will, they

13 would think I was going there on purpose, and they would think that I was

14 going there to be against them, sort of thing, and that's why I gave that

15 idea up.

16 Q. And is it true what you write here in your statement, that that's

17 why the Albanians killed two of your uncles on your mother's side in the

18 village of Rastavica?

19 A. Well, he was -- one of their relations worked for the Serb police

20 force in Kosovo, and that was that particular problem. So to take their

21 revenge on him, they killed them.

22 Q. Were they Albanians? Tell me that.

23 A. No. But I know that the Albanians killed them.

24 Q. You know that the Albanians killed them. And you consider that

25 the motive was revenge; is that right?

Page 8291

1 A. Yes, because that particular man, the one who worked in the police

2 force, he was a nephew of theirs who had left Yugoslavia before the

3 bombing, actually. So that they weren't able -- the Albanians couldn't

4 reach him. So they didn't know how to take their revenge, and then they

5 found a way.

6 Q. All right. On the 21st of November, 1998, the military

7 authorities arrested you in your house and took you into custody in the

8 military prison in Nis, whereas you say you were with young Albanians

9 there. Now, I'm interested in hearing the answer to this question: How

10 -- what -- how were these Albanians in prison treated?

11 A. I was in a cell with one Albanian. There were other Albanians in

12 the other cells. And how did I know? I knew because there's a small

13 mirror -- window in the room, it's slightly ajar, and they would talk to

14 each other through this in Albanian. So I knew they were Albanians. And

15 the man with me, on the 17th day of our detention, I realised that we were

16 relations on my aunt's side. And he said that he was captured at the

17 Macedonian border as he was trying to cross illegally and that they caught

18 him smuggling cigarettes. And the charge against him was -- the

19 indictment against him was - while I was there I was able to deduce this -

20 that it was for trafficking weapons, for smuggling weapons. That's what

21 he was accused of and charged with. And I read this indictment, the

22 charges brought against him.

23 So it says that he was smuggling arms, whereas he told me he was

24 actually smuggling cigarettes.

25 Q. But my question to you was: How was he treated? How were these

Page 8292

1 young men, Albanian men who were in detention in the prison, treated? Was

2 it the same treatment for one and all? Was it correct and proper?

3 A. Well, it was the same for everyone but it wasn't correct, really.

4 It wasn't proper.

5 Q. In what sense do you mean not proper?

6 A. Well, if you had to go to the toilet and relieve yourself, you

7 would have to do this in -- running. And when the guard said that's

8 enough, stop there, you would have to run back. I wasn't able to go to

9 sleep or catch a nap during the day, even on a chair or anything, twenty

10 winks, nothing of that kind. And secondly, they didn't let us do

11 anything. And their behaviour towards the Albanians wasn't bad, I didn't

12 notice any bad behaviour towards the Albanians.

13 Q. So can I conclude from what you say that you were all treated the

14 same; you were and the other men and all of them?

15 A. Yes. The treatment was the same for all of us.

16 Q. Now, your father nevertheless insisted that you go back to your

17 unit and finish your military service there. And as you say, through some

18 authoritative persons he saw that you got off after 20 days in prison and

19 wanted you to go back to your unit.

20 A. My father came to visit me in prison. He had no other choice, and

21 he talked to me in the presence of some of these NCOs who were there, and

22 he said: "You must go back." And said, "I'm not going back alive." And

23 he said, "Well, son, we don't have a choice. There is no other way out,

24 you have to go back."

25 When the visit was over half an hour later, I decided to go back

Page 8293












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8294

1 of my own free will. I was sorry, felt sorry for my father. I thought,

2 well, what can he do? What's he going to do if I refuse? Then I had to

3 write a request to the Judge, asking for an interview with the Judge so I

4 could say what I wanted to say to my -- to this Judge. And they took me

5 off to the Judge the next day, and you know the story after that.

6 Q. All right. On the 28th of February, 1999, once you had returned

7 to your unit, you went, as far as I was able to see, to Ljubizde. And you

8 say that some soldiers from the hills brought in the bodies of six

9 Albanian men who -- six Albanian people who were dead, who had been dead

10 for three days. Were they KLA members?

11 A. Yes, they were.

12 Q. And what clash with the army or police were they killed in?

13 A. There was no clash. It was just that these Albanians were caught

14 up in an ambush.

15 Q. Ah. So they were killed in an ambush; right?

16 A. Yes, I think so. And allegedly, we -- the alarm was sounded and

17 we were told to go up there because they said they had -- there were more

18 terrorists up there. And I was in charge of security for the vehicles.

19 My comrades went up into those woods and forest to catch the terrorists,

20 but they didn't catch anybody at all alive. They just brought in three or

21 four dead bodies. And I even carried some too. That is, with my vehicle,

22 in my vehicle.

23 Q. Yes. But the order was to catch them and not to kill them.

24 A. Yes, that's right, but they had already -- the bodies had already

25 frozen. So it doesn't take a day to freeze a body, it takes longer. So

Page 8295

1 it was very cold weather at that time, and I assumed that they were

2 already dead.

3 JUDGE MAY: It's now quarter to two. We have now to adjourn.

4 Witness K32, would you be back tomorrow morning, please, at 9.00,

5 to conclude your evidence.

6 And, Mr. Milosevic, you've got half an hour more for

7 cross-examination.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

9 JUDGE MAY: Nine o'clock tomorrow morning, please.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of July,

12 2002, at 9.00 a.m.