Page 11833
1 Friday, 18 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I may, before we begin, I just want
8 to update the Chamber regarding the investigation of the threat. With the
9 Court's permission, we had an investigator speak to both Mr. Dulovic and
10 his wife, yesterday and this morning, and the nature of the threat was one
11 phone call to a member of Mr. Dulovic's family, and a threat of a general
12 nature and abusive language. I want to acknowledge the prompt action
13 taken by Minister Mihajlovic and Nenad Milic of the Ministry of Interior.
14 They placed immediate guards around Mr. Dulovic's house and have
15 undertaken an investigation of the matter. And just finally, I would say
16 I'm somewhat concerned about the chilling effect this may have had. It
17 was reported in Belgrade as a threat against Mr. Dulovic, and that has
18 been the reason we went into closed session, and I would invite the
19 Chamber, to the extent it deems appropriate, to publicly recognise Mr.
20 Mihajlovic's commitment to ensuring that any witness who cooperates and
21 appears before the Tribunal will receive adequate protection should they
22 come under threat.
23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll consider that.
24 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
25 WITNESS: JOVAN DULOVIC [Resumed]
Page 11834
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]
3 Q. [Interpretation] We stopped at a point when we were dealing with
4 the record of your testimony in court. We say that -- we said, rather,
5 that the perpetrators were treated as persons unknown. And you mentioned
6 a certain Dragica, and then you say, on page 5 of your statement:
7 "I never found out exactly what the last name and first name of
8 that woman were and where she was, but I know that she was very well known
9 at that time in that area of Vukovar."
10 So even as far as this other person is concerned, you don't know
11 yet again who this is. So is there anything unnatural about the fact that
12 the judiciary authorities were instituting proceedings against persons
13 unknown until the identity of the perpetrators was established?
14 A. I did not go into that. I said what I had to say, and I abide by
15 that. Everybody knows Dragica. She is from Novi Sad
16 Mr. Sljivancanin said and all the rest, but it was easy to establish who
17 had done this and on whose instructions.
18 Q. Well, you probably know, Mr. Dulovic, about the explanation that
19 was provided. Actually, this person -- this group of prisoners was taken
20 away by citizens who were armed and who were a furious mob. And nobody
21 justified the fact that they were killed, but weapons were used to seize
22 them from the army, from the guards who were taking care of them, and it
23 wasn't the army that did that. Isn't that clear to you? Or perhaps even
24 that isn't clear to you.
25 A. It's not for me to say what is clear to me and what is not clear
Page 11835
1 to me. I said what I learned, what I found out, and I know that for
2 months and months on, these people were free, even after that.
3 Q. Which people are you talking about? The people from that
4 territory, among whom you mentioned that man from Smederevo when you don't
5 even know exactly who he is, and this woman, and you say that you never
6 managed to find out her first and last name? Are you talking about that?
7 A. The ones you are talking about, the ones who perpetrated this.
8 Q. Isn't it clear that this was not done by Major Sljivancanin or
9 General Mrksic? You say in this statement of yours --
10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you're again using this as an
11 opportunity to try and argue your case. It's not for the witness to
12 interpret his evidence; it's for us. Now, you can ask him what these
13 people -- about what these people said, of course, but what is clear or
14 what isn't clear from the evidence is a matter which the Tribunal will
15 have to decide and is not a matter for the witness.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You say in your statement: "Otherwise I did not see Mrksic
19 during my stay in Vukovar. I heard that he was only in Negoslavci. Also,
20 I never spoke to Sljivancanin about this subject." Do you know, for
21 example, that at the time when these events took place, Mrksic was not
22 even in Slavonia at all, he was in Belgrade?
23 A. I said that I did not see Mrksic, that I heard that he was in
24 Negoslavci.
25 Q. All right. Tell me, please, Mr. Dulovic -- let's just see where
Page 11836
1 this is. I have to find your permit to stay in that zone.
2 JUDGE MAY: The Vukovar one, it's tab -- Exhibit 342, tab 1.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Vukovar, yes. Vukovar. Vukovar,
4 right.
5 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have the exhibit.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Right. Here it is. Here it is.
7 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the witness have it.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Dulovic, please, in this permit of yours, it says that you are
10 allowed to stay there from the 9th of October until the 9th of November;
11 is that right?
12 A. I did not get the right document.
13 Q. It says up here: "Federal Secretariat for National Defence,
14 Department for Instruction and Moral and Ethical Behaviour," and so on and
15 so forth, "Ekspres Politika, Belgrade
16 what it says here.
17 So from the 9th of October until the 9th of November; you were
18 allowed to stay there for a month. And you are testifying about a period
19 of time when you were not there; is that right or is that not right,
20 Mr. Dulovic?
21 A. It is not right.
22 Q. So what's this all about?
23 A. The point is that at first -- first of all, it says here the
24 permit's validity is extended and is -- and does not only apply to what
25 the federal secretariat granted, and then it is signed Major Petrovic, and
Page 11837
1 there's a stamp. It was possible to travel to Vukovar from May onwards
2 with a journalist's ID only, and then later on, when going there, they
3 required a permit, so that's why I had to get this --
4 Q. All right, Mr. Dulovic. You made a propaganda film, and then you
5 took some excerpts out of it. When did you make this film?
6 A. 1995 or 1996. I don't know.
7 Q. So a few years after these events, you made this film, and then
8 you took certain excerpts out of this material. I have the transcript
9 here of that rather unclear footage of that conversation with
10 Sljivancanin. So could you please explain this to me, because I really
11 don't understand what the point is. It says here:
12 "Nicolas Borsinger" -- no. Illegible. And then Sljivancanin:
13 "What's the problem?" And then again NB says: "I'm used to getting
14 better cooperation from the JNA, better than what I'm getting today."
15 Sljivancanin: "Translate this for me: 'Rather than today.' What's this
16 all about?" Then this Borsinger says: "The colonel is aware of all the
17 problems." Sljivancanin: "Well, there are no problems. Only --" and
18 then there's nothing more. And then he says: "The colonel is here."
19 Sljivancanin: "I just know that some civilians --" and then the rest is
20 inaudible. The Colonel: "What's the problem? The problem -- Point out
21 what the problem is. Point out what the problem is." Borsinger says:
22 "That's where I can see the soldiers walking down the street. I can see
23 trucks getting in. Look there. Look there." Sljivancanin says: "Well,
24 now I've opened the bridge for traffic." Colonel: "So that bridge was
25 not open for traffic." Sljivancanin: "Because I heard there was shooting
Page 11838
1 there. It was closed for traffic because there was shooting there. Did
2 you hear about this, sir?" Borsinger: "My colleagues were there."
3 Sljivancanin: "Sir, if you're interested only in the fate of these people
4 who were in the basement and who are provided security for by my soldiers,
5 they are taken care of." He says: "They are taken care of. And if
6 you're not interested in the fact that my young soldiers are getting
7 killed, those who are 18, 19, 20 years old, then you are not welcome here.
8 And sir, my own soldiers were killed here tonight. And sir, there is a
9 war going on here." Borsinger: "I know." Sljivancanin: "And we are
10 trying to make sure that all of you are safe and that peace is secured for
11 you, while you come to me talking of problems. If you don't like it here,
12 feel free to go to where you like it. And I'm very embarrassed for you to
13 treat me this way. Whatever you asked of me, I have given you."
14 What are you proving with this? What are you proving with this
15 episode from this film? What's this all about?
16 JUDGE MAY: It's not a proper question. That is a matter --
17 A. You're confused.
18 JUDGE MAY: That is a matter for the Court, to determine what is
19 proved. But what the witness can deal with is the circumstances in which
20 this conversation took place. What was happening, Mr. Dulovic?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the accused has
22 confused this film. I did not participate in it. He didn't listen
23 carefully when the matter was discussed in this courtroom. This is an
24 excerpt from a different kind of footage.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 11839
1 Q. All right. I'm talking about this excerpt that you showed of
2 Sljivancanin. So I want this footage. It doesn't matter whether it's
3 from that film. This is what you provided. So what is the point? What
4 is the point of presenting this conversation? Because I don't see
5 anything in this conversation that is --
6 JUDGE MAY: Look, that's a matter for argument. You can argue
7 that to us. The witness can't answer the question. It's merely some
8 footage which has been provided.
9 But tell us, please, remind us, if you would, Mr. Dulovic: What
10 was happening that morning between the Red Cross and Major Sljivancanin?
11 Can you help us to that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. First of all, I did not
13 participate in the filming that is being referred to now. This was filmed
14 by another crew, a TV crew. I listened to Mr. Sljivancanin, and I still
15 have a few sentences when he was giving these explanations to the
16 gentlemen from the Red Cross, that he would not let him in because this is
17 a war zone and there's a war going on and there are armed Ustashas there,
18 and something to that effect. As for this part, I was not there next to
19 him when he said what is recorded in this particular footage.
20 JUDGE MAY: And when -- just a moment. To clarify matters, when
21 you say he wouldn't let the Red Cross in, where were the Red Cross seeking
22 access to?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the very entrance into the
24 hospital. So not in the hospital, but this is in front of the entrance
25 into the hospital, about five or six metres in front. This is a different
Page 11840
1 scene, the one that is referred to here in this footage.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Are you trying to say, Mr. Dulovic, that this scene that is
4 recorded here has nothing to do with what you've been testifying about?
5 A. No, that's not correct. It does have something to do with it.
6 This lasted much longer. I simply said what I heard when he was speaking.
7 He was shouting, Major Sljivancanin was, quite a bit, on that occasion.
8 As for the details of his conversation with the gentleman from the Red
9 Cross, I am not aware of them, but he was shouting this for the sake of
10 the public, because there were quite a few journalists around.
11 Q. He was shouting for the sake of the public and explaining that his
12 soldiers were being killed and that he did everything that he asked him to
13 do?
14 A. That's my impression.
15 Q. All right. Now let's go back to what I mentioned, your film.
16 Since you made that propaganda film in 1995, as you put it yourself --
17 A. I don't remember.
18 JUDGE MAY: That question involved an implied criticism, it may
19 be, and you should have the chance to deal with it. What is said is that
20 it was a propaganda film. Is that a true characterisation or not?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I see this
22 film here. I first saw this film here, or rather, this particular scene.
23 Perhaps it was broadcast on television too, but I don't know. I don't
24 know who recorded it.
25 JUDGE MAY: There may be a misunderstanding, which I could quite
Page 11841
1 understand. As I understand the accused, he's talking about the longer
2 film which you made, or we were told you had made, about the Yellow Wasps.
3 I think that's what he's talking about. He was describing it as a
4 propaganda film.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, that's not true. What I
6 saw was the truth, and also what I saw in the courtroom when the trial of
7 the Yellow Wasps was held. And then there's also the interview of Vojin
8 Vuckovic, and these other scenes. As for this part, I didn't work on it.
9 This was taken by the director from some other material that had been made
10 public. So I did not discuss the subject with him, this particular
11 excerpt that refers to Sljivancanin.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Dulovic, you are testifying about some cooperation of mine in
14 1991 and 1992 with Vojislav Seselj. As you know, he was in opposition.
15 So I would like you to comment for me upon this letter that I got through
16 my associates. It has to do with you and also your predecessor from the
17 same news magazine. I'm not going to read the whole thing, although it's
18 a one-page letter, and it's handwritten, so it's basically one third of a
19 typewritten page. It says:
20 "Both of them are invoking some alleged statements of mine post
21 festum. Possibly given during the time of a fierce propaganda war between
22 the Serb Radical Party and the Socialist Party of Serbia in intervals
23 between my two stints in prison. Such statements, where the passionate
24 protagonists of a political conflict are competing in mutual accusations
25 can never be a source of the truth."
Page 11842
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Page 11843
1 And then it says:
2 "Mr. Milosevic, I remind you that you and I first net on the 27th
3 of February, 1992, at the meeting of the National Assembly of Serbia and
4 we only shook hands then," which is true. When I came to parliament, I
5 shook hands with the people who were closest to me physically around
6 there. I shook hands with the MPs who were around me. And then I quote:
7 "We did not talk." Of course, that's true. "Our first
8 conversation was in May 1992, namely, about the coming federal elections.
9 We never discussed war operations or sending volunteers. The Serb radical
10 party directly sent all its volunteers to JNA units and they all met up at
11 the Bubanj Potok barracks. All these volunteers were regular soldiers of
12 the JNA and their service in wartime was recorded in their military IDs.
13 A smaller number of volunteers was within the Territorial Defence of the
14 SAO Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem
15 Republika Srpska. The Srpska Radical Party never had any paramilitary
16 formations. I am prepared, Mr. Milosevic, to testify truthfully about all
17 wartime events, and I'm surprised that The Hague Prosecutor considers me
18 to be inaccessible. As soon as I get official summons, I'm coming.
19 Respectfully yours, Vojislav Seselj." Signed yesterday.
20 So --
21 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... what Vojislav
22 Seselj says in a letter. I don't suppose the witness can comment on it,
23 but we will ask him.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just two things: One, I would ask that
25 that letter be marked, and if Mr. Milosevic doesn't wish to introduce it
Page 11844
1 into evidence, the Prosecution would ask that it be preserved. One, for
2 two reasons: I believe it is an important piece of evidence, in and of
3 itself. Secondly, I'm quite concerned --
4 JUDGE MAY: I must tell you, it hasn't been our practice so far to
5 exhibit the various statements which Mr. Milosevic has relied on, for the
6 very good reason that they're not evidence; they're merely material which
7 he's putting forward. And the danger of doing it, if I may say, is that
8 you may want to have this one marked, but there may be a great many which
9 you wouldn't wish to have marked as evidence. Anyway, we'll consider
10 that.
11 MR. GROOME: The point I wish to make, Your Honour, regarding this
12 particular piece is I'm concerned that how did Mr. Seselj know what this
13 witness testified to yesterday when it was a closed session? That piece
14 of video was shown in closed session, and now we have a response from Mr.
15 Seselj 24 hours later. That causes me some concern, especially in the
16 light of events of yesterday.
17 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Milosevic, can you help us to that?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, please, Mr. May. First of
19 all, I will answer your questions only when I am a witness, but I will
20 answer now. Please respect your own rules. For the sake of brevity, I
21 did not read out the beginning. It says:
22 "Dear Mr. Milosevic, I am amazed by the false testimony of two
23 journalists of the journal Vreme, Dejan Anastasijevic and Jovan Dulovic.
24 They showed themselves long ago to be agents of Western intelligence
25 services."
Page 11845
1 Then he goes on to say what I quoted. They both refer to
2 statements I allegedly made post festum which I may have made at the time
3 of a fierce propaganda war. This was a major clash between the Socialist
4 Party and the Serb Radical Party. They were attacking me, and of course
5 he wanted to harm me, harm me as much as he could with these statements.
6 So this is what he says, referring to both witnesses. And what is
7 important here is that there is no basis for the stories they tell about
8 volunteers and so on. I saw this man for the first time only a year
9 later, and we talked for the first time even longer after that, and the
10 topic of our conversation was the elections. We never discussed -- no one
11 from the government ever discussed from anyone from the opposition whether
12 they were sending volunteers or not. This refers to both witnesses, and I
13 can give you this letter for you to look at. Here it is.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE MAY: Was this part in open session, what Seselj said?
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this video was played towards the end of
17 the direct examination yesterday, during closed session. I can check,
18 Your Honour, but I'm --
19 JUDGE KWON: It was done on 16th of October, day 110, and I guess
20 it was in open session.
21 MR. GROOME: The first video, I know, was played -- the Vukovar
22 video was played the first day. I will check, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MAY: It was the Seselj video, which came towards the end of
24 his evidence, if my recollection is right, which suggests it was in closed
25 session.
Page 11846
1 MR. GROOME: That's my recollection as well, Your Honour. I can
2 check my notes.
3 JUDGE KWON: Could you check the page 11680.
4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE KWON: Line 21.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE MAY: Well, the registrar points out that the exhibit may
8 have been public, and was public, and wasn't under seal. Now, that may be
9 right. But let us not spend time on this now. It's something which can
10 be determined.
11 Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic.
12 The application is that this should be a document which is
13 exhibited. So the first question is for you, Mr. Milosevic: Do you
14 object to that?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are you referring to Seselj's
16 letter?
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. You can have it. You can
19 have it. Of course you can.
20 JUDGE MAY: One moment. Before we deal with it, we'll decide
21 whether to admit it or not.
22 Mr. Dulovic, you've been sitting there patiently while all this
23 has been going on. Is there anything you would like to say about what's
24 been read out to you? You should have the opportunity to answer.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. First of all, this film was a
Page 11847
1 documentary film. It was made as a documentary film.
2 Secondly, when we are talking about the army and about volunteers,
3 I wish to tell you that I investigated this, and I know for certain that
4 members of the Radical Party, of Mr. Seselj's party, volunteered. They
5 volunteered in their local Radical Party boards, where lists were drawn
6 up. Then these lists of names were sent to the republic Ministry of the
7 Interior, the police, to be checked. I don't know what sort of check
8 exactly it was, whether they checked whether these people had criminal
9 records or whether it was something else that was checked. After this,
10 the lists were sent back to the municipal boards, which then sent call-up
11 notes to those volunteers who had been accepted. After this, the
12 volunteers went to military training ground near Belgrade
13 Potok, where they were trained for a time. They were trained as soldiers,
14 they received military training. From there, the state transported them
15 to wherever they were needed as soldiers, and then they were issued with
16 weapons.
17 What I saw is, for example, an event in Vukovar, where this man
18 Kameni was. He was the leader of one such unit which was stationed
19 nearby, but it had its own command, its own leader. When needed, however,
20 they were used for certain operations. This does not mean, by any means,
21 that they did not act independently, without any control by the army, for
22 example, to do what they did.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Dulovic --
25 A. Just a moment. I forgot to mention that these people never
Page 11848
1 underwent any kind of medical examination, so that I am sure that I saw
2 men who were -- who would never have been accepted in a regular army after
3 a psychiatric check-up. There were people like that.
4 Q. Mr. Dulovic, you could have seen anyone in the war theatre, but if
5 you're talking about volunteers who joined the Yugoslav National Army,
6 then they were soldiers of the JNA and not paramilitary formations. And
7 Mr. Seselj says here:
8 "The Serbian Radical Party never had paramilitary formations."
9 A. That is not correct.
10 Q. Very well. You probably know better. I'm just saying what he
11 writes here. Do you remember that the standpoint taken by our country was
12 always categorically against any sort of paramilitary units because we
13 considered them to be thieves, looters, and not military units?
14 A. I wouldn't agree with this.
15 Q. Very well, Mr. Dulovic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please bear in mind that we've
17 wasted a lot of time, quite unnecessarily, with these discussions which
18 were not initiated by me, so please take account of the time.
19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you're not going to get away with that.
20 These kind of comments are wholly out of order. These are important
21 issues which you raised, you read out Seselj's letter. You can't then be
22 surprised when it's clarified. You may not like the answers, but they're
23 the answers which the witness has given. Now, the Chamber will consider
24 whether we're going to exhibit this particular letter or not.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
Page 11849
1 JUDGE MAY: We're not going to admit this letter, but we are going
2 to mark it for identification since there is an issue as to whether it was
3 or was not obtained in circumstances or sent in circumstances when
4 evidence was adduced in closed session. Now, it may or -- that may or may
5 not be the case, but the upshot is that we will exhibit it, but for that
6 -- I mean mark it for identification, but for that limited purpose.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --
8 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the registrar ...
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be marked for identification
10 as Defence Exhibit 55.
11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I don't want to waste time.
13 I asked my associates to ask Mr. Seselj where and when he gave such an
14 interview, which must be false because he couldn't have talked about this;
15 I never even knew the man at the time. So --
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we shall have [Previous translation
17 continues]... the evidence. If you want to add anything else, do, by way
18 of explanation.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's why I'm saying there's no
20 need to investigate whether it was in open or closed session. It was in
21 closed session yesterday, but I was amazed that someone could talk such
22 nonsense, so I asked that this be checked, whether Seselj ever gave such
23 an interview or not. And you've heard his explanation. At the time when
24 there were clashes between the Socialist Party and the Serbian Radical
25 Party, when he, as a politician, thought it was not his duty to tell the
Page 11850
1 truth but to harm his opponent as much as possible, that's when he said
2 this. And it's true that at the time I didn't even know him. He goes on
3 to say that they never had paramilitary units.
4 So what I said, Mr. May, about the time is not because I don't
5 like the witness's replies, but because I don't want us to waste too much
6 time which will then prevent me from putting other questions to the
7 witness. My remark was about the time and not about what the witness was
8 saying, and it's obviously what sort of things he's saying. That's
9 obvious.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Dulovic, please, you returned to Belgrade
12 JUDGE MAY: Let the registrar say something.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be marked for identification
14 as D55, but it will also be under seal, confidential.
15 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
16 Yes.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I feel I must just note for the record
18 that it seems what Mr. Milosevic has just told us is that after the events
19 of yesterday morning, after this man expressing fear that some of the
20 people he would testify about yesterday were the ones he feared the most,
21 to then take information from a closed session and communicate that to the
22 very person --
23 JUDGE MAY: I don't interpret it that way, and I'm not going to go
24 into an examination now. It's perfectly possible that he spoke to his
25 associates at the end of the first day, which, of course, was in open
Page 11851
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Page 11852
1 session.
2 Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, whatever happened and
4 whatever kind of session, I suppose I have the right to ask someone who is
5 said to have said something, whether he actually said it and whether this
6 is true or not. I suppose I have that right.
7 It's not about Dulovic or anything else; it's about an interview
8 given by a man who was then asked what this was about.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Dulovic, you say -- or rather, you mentioned first one person
11 and then another person, in connection with the events in Vukovar and
12 Ovcara, and after that, you returned to Belgrade
13 day it was, but after five, ten, or fifteen days - it doesn't matter - you
14 returned to Belgrade. When you came back to Belgrade, did you go to
15 report what you saw and heard to anyone?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. Very well, Mr. Dulovic, but as a journalist reporting on the
18 courts and the judiciary, you should have known that you were supposed to
19 report this to some sort of organ.
20 A. These organs were in the field. It would have been stupid for me
21 to go and report something that the people who were in charge of this
22 could have seen for themselves.
23 Q. Do you think the army had anything to do with these events?
24 A. I don't think anything. I'm just saying what I saw. My personal
25 opinion is irrelevant.
Page 11853
1 Q. You say, in the last passage, that an order came that all
2 volunteers should be disarmed.
3 A. I didn't say that. You should read this more carefully.
4 Q. Here is the last paragraph, page 6: "On the following day, an
5 order was issued to all volunteers to hand in their weapons."
6 A. Correct. The Vukovar operation was over. They were no longer
7 needed. They handed back their weapons and returned home. So it was not
8 that they were disarmed but that they returned the weapons they had been
9 issued. But this has nothing to do with the event in Ovcara.
10 Q. Well, I connected it with this because in the next passage after
11 the one where you mention Ovcara, you say:
12 "On the following day, an order was put out for all volunteers to
13 hand in their weapons."
14 A. The two things have no connection with each other.
15 Q. Very well, Mr. Vukovic [as interpreted], I'm just reading out from
16 your statement. I suppose that this was a response by these organs in the
17 field to what you were saying.
18 A. Your assumption is wrong.
19 Q. How do you know that this was not so?
20 A. Because all the units all around Vukovar, even those that had
21 nothing to do with Ovcara, had to hand their weapons back because they
22 were no longer needed. There was no longer any fighting.
23 Q. Very well. That's what you're explaining now, but your statement
24 says something different.
25 A. No, it doesn't say something different.
Page 11854
1 Q. Now, to save time, you spoke about an exchange. Do you know about
2 an exchange that took place in March 1992, when 41 persons were taken over
3 from the Croatian side and they were exchanged for a group of 380 members
4 of the paramilitary formations of Croatia
5 agreed to accept this exchange all for all, and that this exchange took
6 place at the end of March 1992? Do you know what was done with these
7 people who had been taken into custody?
8 A. No.
9 Q. All right. I'm not going to ask you about that, then. They were
10 mostly civilians. Some of them were women. The youngest person was 24,
11 the oldest one was 73. I'm not going to read you all this, but it would
12 be a good thing if you acquainted yourself with the matter. Perhaps it
13 would be more difficult for you to speak about the good treatment that the
14 Serbs were accorded in Vukovar.
15 A. That's not what I said; that's what they said.
16 Q. All right, Mr. Dulovic. Of three -- if you have three witnesses
17 of one event, you will get three different descriptions of the event, and
18 I'm sure you know that as a journalist attending court cases.
19 But we have very little time, so I'll have to focus on the part of
20 your statement relating to Bosnia. You followed the events in Zvornik,
21 and you explained that you came to Zvornik, that it was dangerous when you
22 arrived, and that you went back to Mali Zvornik straight away. And you
23 say that, over there, there were paramilitaries stationed for the most
24 part. You go on to say that afterwards - so the 10th of May - there was a
25 plaque reading "Republika Srpska" on it, and on the bridge there were
Page 11855
1 members of the regular federal police force and the police force of the
2 Republic of Serbia
3 saw just at the border crossing. Is that right, Mr. Dulovic?
4 A. Is that a question?
5 Q. I said: The members of the police force of Republika Srpska, you
6 were able to see only along the border crossing; is that right?
7 A. Well, if that was the border crossing where I had seen them, then
8 that's it.
9 Q. Well, the bridge over the River Drina between Mali Zvornik and
10 Veliki Zvornik. Mali Zvornik is in Serbia
11 not called Big Zvornik, it's just Zvornik - that's in Bosnia
12 A. Well, I was not aware that that was a border crossing, nor did
13 anybody ask me for my passport.
14 Q. Well, all right. Not to say the border crossing. What I'm
15 talking about is the bridge between Serbia
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So it was only on that bridge that you were able to see policemen
18 belonging to the police force of the Republic of Serbia. I assume you
19 didn't see them in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 A. Yes, that's right. I couldn't have seen those people who were on
21 the bridge over there in Bosnia as well.
22 Q. Well, did you see any policemen of the Republic of Serbia on the
23 other side, in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
24 A. You mean in uniform?
25 Q. I mean our own policemen, policemen from Serbia
Page 11856
1 in Bosnia-Herzegovina at all?
2 A. No.
3 Q. What I want to -- that's what I want to clear up. They were on
4 the territory of Serbia
5 they didn't allow anybody crossing in with weapons. What else could they
6 have done?
7 A. Well, that's absolutely right. There's nothing that I challenge
8 there.
9 Q. Did you learn at the time that they told you in Serbia
10 were a lot of criminals and bandits in Zvornik and that it was very
11 dangerous for you to go there at all?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. Is it logical, then, that the police force on the bridge from
14 Serbia, on a bridge linking Serbia to Bosnia
15 of violence, would prevent anybody entering carrying weapons? And
16 regardless of the fact that Yugoslavia
17 need a passport, you're quite right there, but the police does have the
18 discretionary right to prevent anybody from passing if they consider them
19 to be suspect and ask what they want to do in Serbia
20 A. Yes, quite right, but there's a very significant detail here.
21 They didn't allow Vojin Vuckovic and his own people, that is to say,
22 Seselj's unit, for whom you say yourself was under the auspices of the
23 JNA. So that particular unit, whether they were looters or not, they were
24 registered as a unit called the Yellow Wasps, led by Major Dusan Vojin
25 Vuckovic, who, as he told me, was an instructor in the federal police
Page 11857
1 force.
2 Q. Please, Mr. Dulovic. I did not tell you that he was under the
3 patronage of the JNA. The federal police force arrested members of these
4 Yellow Wasps. Do you know that? Do you know that the police actually
5 arrested any member of the Yellow Wasps?
6 A. Well, quite a long time after the end.
7 Q. Could you tell me how long after?
8 A. Well, several years.
9 Q. You said that this trial of Vuckovic's was in 1996; isn't that
10 right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And as the trial was in 1996, I suppose you assume that it was
13 because somebody just took it into his mind for political reasons in 1996
14 to launch proceedings and bring the person to trial; is that your
15 explanation?
16 A. No. My explanation is that what they wanted was to show that we
17 in Serbia were capable of bringing war criminals to trial. And that was a
18 complete fiasco.
19 Q. And this -- somebody suddenly took this into their minds in 1996;
20 is that it?
21 A. Yes, that's it.
22 Q. All right, Mr. Dulovic. I have here -- it says "The Republic of
23 Serbia." This is a court file. The Republic of Serbia
24 public prosecutor. The town is Sabac, because that's where it took place.
25 The investigating judge of the district court in Sabac. And then it
Page 11858
1 says: "Criminal Report, Vuckovic Dusko, nicknamed Repic, from Umka, and
2 Vuckovic Vojin, from Umka, et cetera, et cetera, who their mother and
3 father was, and then why the accusations are being made, what the charges
4 are. And it says: "During the civil war in the former Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, violating the laws of international warfare during the
6 war, perpetrated killings and torture of the civilian population." And
7 then it goes on to state the following:
8 "On the 10th of June, 1992, in the cultural centre in Celopek
9 where a large number of civilians were being detained from Divice. He
10 tortured these individuals by organising a box match between these
11 individuals, promising that the stronger one would be spared his life."
12 And then Cikaric Enes from Divice as well, he cut off his ear and
13 then proceeded to shoot from a small-calibre pistol at these persons.
14 Some of them were killed on the spot and others were wounded. He would
15 pierce their hearts and kill them in that way. So that he killed, in
16 total, 17 persons, and these persons, it says here, were then transported
17 by him to the quarry and took another four individuals to load out the
18 bodies, and he killed those four persons too from a small-calibre rifle.
19 So he stands accused of 21 murders and previous tortures of these
20 same individuals. I assume that you know all about that.
21 A. Yes, I know it in all its details.
22 Q. It appears that there's just one small point that seems to have
23 elapsed -- that seems to have escaped you in what you have said. The date
24 is 1993. The year is 1993, Mr. Dulovic, and not 1996. Because nobody
25 took it into their minds to do this in 1996, to bring people to justice.
Page 11859
1 The date on this document is 1993, and I tender it into evidence.
2 Not only is this correct, but the reliability of this witness is
3 brought into question because he claims that this was in 1996.
4 A. I said I thought it was in 1996 because it was a long time ago.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Please take this
6 document --
7 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that point, as to the significance of
8 1993 and 1996.
9 Yes. Let the document be exhibited.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the point is not even in
11 that particular matter of whether it was 1996 or 1993. It speaks of the
12 exactness of the testimony, and in Serbia, war crimes were prosecuted. It
13 was not that the crimes were made little of. It says that he killed 17
14 persons, plus the other four that helped him carry the dead bodies. It
15 specifies the torture that he resorted to. So it is quite obvious that
16 nobody wanted to hide anything when it comes to criminals of this type.
17 JUDGE MAY: Exhibit number, please.
18 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Defence Exhibit D56, under seal,
19 confidential.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Just to clear this up. So you saw the Yellow Wasps. They were an
24 ordinary paramilitary unit which had nothing to do with either the army or
25 the police force of Republika Srpska or the army of Republika Srpska; is
Page 11860
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13 English transcripts.
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15
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17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 11861
1 that right or not?
2 A. I don't know. All I know is that they were wearing regular
3 camouflage uniforms, all of them were armed, and they looked like an
4 official army except for their long hair, untidy hair, and things like
5 that, and the caps they wore.
6 Q. All right, Mr. Dulovic. I have understood you to say that the
7 Serbs over there had taken control of Zvornik and that there was no
8 violence committed and that they weren't in any danger. That was what you
9 wanted to say in your testimony, as far as I understood you. Is that
10 right?
11 A. No, it's not. That's not right. That's not what I'm claiming.
12 Q. Well, tell me: How did the clash come about in Zvornik to begin
13 with, and whether you know anything at all about the violence that was
14 committed against the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina after those decisions to
15 leave behind Cutilheiro's plan, and after the Croatian regular army had
16 crossed the River Sava, stormed the area after the killing of civilians by
17 the Croatian and Muslim armed forces.
18 A. I was not there when it all began, nor do I know what you're
19 talking about. I wasn't there.
20 Q. All right. I'm going to mention just something with respect to
21 the Zvornik municipality, which is where you were and what you're
22 testifying about, and I'm also going to mention, as this is a long list of
23 persons killed, I'm going to mention just the women and only the women who
24 were killed during the period of time that you yourself were there, Mr.
25 Dulovic.
Page 11862
1 For example: Stojanka Grujic, Gornje Bajlkovice, the Zvornik
2 municipality, husband's name Uros, born in 1936, killed at the beginning
3 of May, 1992. You arrived on the 10th. She was killed on the 9th, when
4 the Muslim army stormed her village. The body was found lying by the
5 house in which she lived.
6 Then again, the next one, Mica Zaric, 56 years of age, killed on
7 the 6th of May, when the Muslims attacked Gornje Baljkovica.
8 Then again, Ulika Kojic was killed, 67 years old, also at the
9 beginning of May 1992.
10 Then the next one is N. Mitrovic
11 name was Bora, from the Srpski Nezuk village of the Zvornik municipality,
12 on the 6th of May, 1992, by members of the Muslim armed forces.
13 Then we have Ljeposava Mitrovic, 45 years old, also killed on the
14 6th of May by the Muslim forces in the village of Gornji Ba.
15 And so on and so on. So I'm just reading the names of the women
16 who were killed. Another one here: N. Savic, the wife of Milos Savic
17 from the village of Boskovici
18 the 5th of May, 1992, when the Muslims attacked her village.
19 Savic Simka from Gornje Baljkovica, 65 years of age, killed on the
20 9th of May when the Muslims attacked her village.
21 There are many other women here on this list. I can't read them
22 all out. And on this list of persons killed, men, there are 118 who were
23 killed in the Zvornik municipality alone, in which you claim that it was
24 the Serbs who attacked the innocent Muslims and then caused a war of some
25 kind to break out.
Page 11863
1 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... all he's
2 describing.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
4 JUDGE MAY: Did you see any of these women killed, Mr. Dulovic?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This happened in some villages
6 that -- I wasn't in those villages. I was in quite another place, not
7 where these people had been killed.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. All right, Mr. Dulovic. I'm telling you, for example, that we
10 have here -- there are a lot of them, but I have 118 names of Serbs who
11 were killed in the Zvornik municipality. I understood you to say that the
12 Serbs went there to kill the Muslims.
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Did you say that, Mr. Dulovic?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Do you know, Mr. Dulovic, of anyone, any one of these killers on
17 the Muslim side, did you ever hear of any one of them, and did you hear
18 about the crimes that they had committed over the Serbian population in
19 the Zvornik municipality? Because you're talking about Zvornik.
20 A. I'm talking about the town of Zvornik
21 municipality, because the municipality includes the villages, and I'm only
22 talking about a part of the town of Zvornik
23 Q. Well, I have a whole list of people who were killed in Zvornik
24 proper, lots of them too. But what I'm asking you is whether you heard
25 anything about that.
Page 11864
1 A. No.
2 Q. I have here 38 names of the perpetrators of crimes against Serbs
3 in the municipality of Zvornik
4 of this, what about Hajrudin Mesic, nicknamed Labud, from Teocak, who
5 organised the killing of civilians in the Zvornik municipality between May
6 1992 and August 1993?
7 A. No, I did not hear about that.
8 Q. All right. Fine. It would take too long to read out all 38
9 names. You say you haven't heard about any people who committed crimes in
10 the Zvornik municipality.
11 A. No. That was not something that was talked about at the time.
12 Perhaps later on.
13 Q. But, Mr. Dulovic, you are claiming, you are asserting, that the
14 Muslim crimes in the Zvornik municipality that you are testifying about
15 were the fruits of Serbian propaganda that the papers wrote about and not
16 the facts that I am bringing to light here before you now.
17 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... where did the
18 witness say that? What part of his evidence are you referring to?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I heard him say into the
20 microphone, here in this courtroom - I can't quote the line now or passage
21 of his testimony - but I heard him say that there was nothing there,
22 actually; it was just all Serbian propaganda and the way they wanted to
23 incite the war there, fan the flames of war.
24 JUDGE MAY: This isn't limited to Zvornik; you're now talking
25 generally, are you? That -- because it's right that he did give evidence
Page 11865
1 about Serb propaganda, generally, and its incitement. What he said was it
2 was inciting people, or that was the effect of it, to war, or inciting
3 fear in them, and it was all propaganda. Now, you want to ask him a
4 question about that, do you?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I cannot understand that to
6 incite people, if you publish the killing of elderly persons, women,
7 children, civilians, peasants, farmers. The papers are free entities,
8 they can publish what they like. Is there anybody who can order a paper
9 not to publish and print what it likes?
10 JUDGE MAY: His evidence was, Mr. Milosevic, that there were
11 stories which were untrue which were being published. If you want to ask
12 him about that, of course you can.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I asked him a question. I
14 said: How can he claim that there -- that all this did not happen,
15 everything that I am reading out now, and that it was all the fruit of
16 Serb fabrications, when matters were actually quite different, the
17 situation was quite different?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is quite the wrong
19 interpretation of what I had been saying. I did not deny -- I just say I
20 don't know about the victims that you have just spoken about. When I
21 spoke about propaganda, I spoke in general terms about the propaganda that
22 was being launched. It was euphoric. I don't want to quote examples now,
23 but lots of things were written in the papers. They said that in Bosnia
24 the animals in zoos were being fed with Serb children, babies, and that
25 people were killed -- children were killed because there was a lack of
Page 11866
1 oxygen in other places. And large-scale fabrications of this kind to
2 incite and nurture nationalistic feelings, extreme nationalistic feelings,
3 which brought us to what we all know happened.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Dulovic, you know that our policies and politics were quite
6 different. Let me quote an example from the area you were in. Do you
7 know that in Mali Zvornik, which means on the territory of Serbia, across
8 the Drina River
9 A. Well, I didn't measure the river, but that's it about, more or
10 less.
11 Q. So Mali Zvornik, if the Drina is 50 metres wide - it could be 150
12 metres, it doesn't matter how wide the Drina River is at that particular
13 point - but the time that you're talking about, there were 20 per cent
14 Muslims living there. The population in Mali Zvornik was 20 per cent
15 Muslim. And that this figure was never reduced. On the contrary; it
16 increased, because some Muslims had crossed over onto the territory of
17 Serbia, and nothing ever happened to a single Muslims on Serbian
18 territory.
19 And the number of Muslims in Mali Zvornik today is greater than it
20 was ten years ago. And the figure was greater in 1996 as well. Once the
21 peace had been signed in Dayton in 1995, there were more Muslims than
22 there were in 1991, in fact, when the war began there. Do you know about
23 that? Are you aware of that, Mr. Dulovic?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. So you don't know about that?
Page 11867
1 A. I don't say that that is not the case, but I'm not aware of it.
2 I'm hearing this for the first time from you.
3 Q. Well, how, then, is it possible and what was the cause of that,
4 that only a few hundred metres across the Drina
5 fire to Muslim houses, whereas this was never attempted in the Republic of
6 Serbia proper?
7 JUDGE MAY: This is all argument from you, and you do this all the
8 time. The witnesses give their evidence of what they saw and heard, and
9 you try and argue with them, and it's all a waste of time, a waste of the
10 Court's time. Now, ask him about his evidence, what he saw and heard.
11 That's what he's giving evidence about, not your arguments about why the
12 Serbs were doing all this and why the Muslims were. He's not given
13 evidence about that.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the witness said here and
15 now, if you were listening to him, two minutes ago, that what had been
16 organised was a media campaign of inciting hatred against the Muslims,
17 which is a flagrant lie, because had there been such a campaign, how would
18 he explain the fact that 50 metres across the Drina
19 any way and that the number of Muslims even went up rather than down over
20 those ten years.
21 JUDGE MAY: Ask him about the campaign instead of arguing about
22 it. That is what he says about it, that this was a propaganda campaign in
23 which lies were told and fabrications were uttered in order to incite the
24 population.
25 Now, if you say it's not true, if you say, for instance, that
Page 11868
1 there was no -- just a moment. If you say there was no story that the
2 animals were fed with children, this kind of thing, if you say it's not
3 true, challenge it. Put it to the witness it's not true.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the newspapers from all
5 sides wrote all kinds of despicable things. I'm not going into all of
6 that. I'm just asking him whether he can put these facts into a logical
7 context in relation to his assertion that there was warmongering against
8 the Muslims, and nothing happened to Muslims in Serbia
9 a matter of fact, Mr. May, we took in 70.000 Muslim refugees from Bosnia
10 during the war.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you know that, Mr. Dulovic?
13 A. No.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He did answer. He said no.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you put a question to me.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Your answer was no. I have another one.
18 A. No. The first one where you said that I said no, what did I say?
19 Can I read this? What is this that you asked?
20 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's not go over this again. Mr. Milosevic, no
21 wonder the witness -- the witness is confused. Now, have you another
22 question for him? Let's get on to another topic. Time is short.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked you -- I'm reading from the
24 transcript now - I asked you precisely about that, that there was no
25 propaganda against the Muslims because nothing happened to a single Muslim
Page 11869
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13 English transcripts.
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Page 11870
1 in Serbia, because had there been propaganda, then something would have
2 happened to them. And as a matter of fact, we took in 70.000 Muslim
3 refugees from Bosnia during the war.
4 JUDGE MAY: What is the point of repeating what you've already
5 said and making a speech?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
7 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, you've been told more than once:
8 The purpose of cross-examination is not to argue your case. You can do
9 that in due course. But not to waste the Court's time by constant
10 argument. Now, have you questions for the witness?
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Dulovic, do you know that in the area around Mali Zvornik --
13 I'm talking about the territory of the Republic of Serbia now. And I
14 consider myself to be responsible for that, that is to say, the territory
15 of Serbia. I was president of Serbia. That in the area around Mali
16 Zvornik are a few villages that are purely Muslim, and in them, no one was
17 ever disturbed, although the Drina is only 50 metres wide, and on the
18 other side there was a civil war that was raging?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Do you know that in Mali Zvornik there is also a mosque, because
21 Muslims live there, and that this mosque was never damaged or were ugly
22 words written on it, or was it threatened in any other way? Do you know
23 that?
24 A. I know that there is a mosque there. It was guarded by policemen.
25 Q. Do you find this logical, that they had to guard it? Because
Page 11871
1 fifty metres away, on the other side, there were grave killings and there
2 was unrest.
3 A. I just said what I saw. It's not for me to think this or that.
4 Q. All right. All right, Mr. Dulovic. Did you know anything, for
5 example, about the attack of the Muslim armed forces on the village of
6 Gornja Kamenica and the killing of a large number of people, and that this
7 attack was led by Esad Mehmedovic, a former policeman, Meho Suljagic, Edo
8 Hazkic [phoen], and Esad and Ahmed Grebic? Are you aware of this?
9 A. No. I have no idea where Kamenica is, or was I ever there.
10 Q. Do you remember what happened at the road between Zvornik and
11 Sehovici, when the Muslim forces attacked a column of vehicles in which
12 there were Serb civilians?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Twelve of them were killed then. Inter alia, a pregnant woman was
15 heavily wounded. Do you remember that event?
16 A. No. No. I don't know anything about that.
17 Q. Do you know anything about the attack? I mean, all of these are
18 villages around Zvornik. They are very close to Zvornik. The village of
19 Gornja Baljkovica, also the municipality of Zvornik, 14 civilians, Serb
20 civilians, were killed. I have their names. I'm not going to read them
21 out. Have you ever heard of that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Of course, there was looting and their cattle were taken away, et
24 cetera.
25 A. No. No, I was not there in the field.
Page 11872
1 Q. Do you know about Snagovo and the large-scale killings of
2 civilians by Muslim forces there, and also the castration of some men and
3 torture, mutilation, and also other things also around Zvornik? Have you
4 ever heard of that?
5 A. No. I was in Zvornik for a very short while, so I did not have
6 the opportunity of hearing about that.
7 Q. Did you hear, for example, of the killing of Mihajlo Pantic, a
8 Serb who was 90 years old? He was killed by three bullets.
9 A. I did not hear about that, because I was not there.
10 Q. All right. Did you hear anything about killings in the
11 municipality of Zvornik that were committed? Did you hear about what was
12 done by units that were commanded by Naser Oric from Srebrenica and how
13 many slaughters they committed in the municipality of Zvornik?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You see, for example, you say that on the 10th of May you were in
16 Zvornik.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On the 5th of May, there was a large-scale massacre of the
19 civilian population. There, right in front of Zvornik, in the village of
20 Boskovici, Mitra Gajic was killed, Stanka Spasojevic -- these are women,
21 for those who are not familiar with the names. They don't know that these
22 are women's names. Draga Lukic. Dragana Cvijetic, Milosava Kostic, Draga
23 Tesic, and so on. Many women among the killed. See, on the 5th of May.
24 You did not hear about any of this and you were in Zvornik on the 10th of
25 May, five days after that?
Page 11873
1 A. Yes. It is logical that I would not hear anything. News went
2 slowly. People were busy with their own affairs, and I did not hear about
3 that. That was not the subject then.
4 Q. All right. What was the subject, if it wasn't crimes? Look at
5 this, please. In the month of April - let's go a month back - before you
6 came to Zvornik. When did you first come to Zvornik?
7 A. It says when I came. It says so over there.
8 Q. I can't find it. Now, you tell me.
9 A. April.
10 Q. Which date?
11 A. I said so the other day, but I had the papers with me. I can't
12 remember now. I don't know. I think that again it was the 10th of April.
13 Q. The 10th of April, and this is the 10th of May.
14 A. Yes, it so happened, as far as I remember.
15 JUDGE MAY: 10th of May was his answer. Yes, let's move on. It's
16 not a memory test here.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I'm not testing the witness's
18 memory. I just can't find it here in my notes when he was there.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. For example, I have here material about things that happened on
21 the 17th of April, 1992, very grave events, a very large number of people
22 were killed. This is the municipality of Zvornik, the village of
23 Rastusnica. Did you hear anything about this attack of the Muslim forces?
24 A. No. No. At that time, when I was in Zvornik, what was topical
25 was the clash between the commander of the Territorial Defence and a
Page 11874
1 strong paramilitary formation, the man who led such a formation, and he
2 said that he was one of Seselj's men, this was this Cele. That was the
3 topical thing going on there at that time. I could not sit there and talk
4 to someone about something that was going on. This was more urgent.
5 Q. All right. What is more urgent, Mr. Dulovic, than such mass
6 killings of civilians throughout the municipality of Zvornik? Don't tell
7 me it's more urgent whether one hoodlum is quarrelling with another one.
8 You said that you had lunch with this man for several hours. Is that
9 right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you think that that was the most urgent thing you should deal
12 with, to have lunch with him for several hours so that you would discuss
13 these matters with him? All of it was more urgent than what I'm quoting
14 to you now?
15 A. What was more urgent for me was to find out what was going on in
16 Zvornik and who was who.
17 Q. Did you really think that such a source could be reliable, or do
18 you assume that this source wanted to tell you his own story, and he
19 thinks that that's the way it suits him? Can you really take such a
20 criminal as a reliable source?
21 A. I just conveyed what he had said to me.
22 Q. All right. All right, Mr. Dulovic. I'm not asking you about
23 these individual names. I told you how many were involved. But I'm
24 asking you about all of this. Did you ever get any information about the
25 large number of civilians who were killed in the municipality of Zvornik?
Page 11875
1 So let us leave the names aside, the actual names, the number of women
2 involved, et cetera. Did you ever find out anything about this? Did you
3 ever write about the civilian casualties in the municipality of Zvornik or
4 about the perpetrators of these crimes?
5 A. This was done by the local correspondents.
6 Q. Who?
7 A. The correspondents.
8 Q. Weren't you a correspondent of Ekspres Politika then?
9 A. No. I was a journalist at the editorial desk. Correspondents are
10 people who are local correspondents in various towns in Serbia
11 the former Yugoslavia.
12 Q. All right. But when, as a journalist from the desk, you go, and
13 when you're in the field and then you're a kind of special reporter from
14 the spot, aren't you?
15 A. Well, perhaps you could put it that way, but it really depends on
16 the subject involved.
17 Q. All right. So what was the subject involved? What was your topic
18 at the time when you were in Zvornik; to discuss who was against who with
19 these criminals or to see what was actually going on?
20 A. It was my affair and the affair of the editors. They decided to
21 go and find out what was going on in Zvornik.
22 Q. All right. Did you ever find anything out about the mass graves
23 in the municipality of Zvornik, 15 kilometres to the south, in the region
24 of the village of Kamenica
25 alone write about it? I assume you never did.
Page 11876
1 A. I did not hear about it, and I was never there.
2 Q. All right. All right, Mr. Dulovic. You explained here, as a
3 matter of fact for quite a long period of time, Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan,
4 was a member of the federal Ministry of the Interior, and as proof of
5 that, you mentioned that at the trial that you attended, some certificate
6 was shown concerning a loan, and now that was supposed to be confirmation
7 of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, belonging to the federal Ministry of the
8 Interior; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Then also there was a lot of bidding here, and then the figure
11 reached was many thousands of dollars. During those years, in the 1980s,
12 the rate of exchange varied, but at that time it was probably 3.000 dinars
13 for one dollar. So it was probably about 3.000 dollars, this entire
14 amount of 9 million dinars. Why would I waste time with that now, when
15 you can check it with the exchange rates lists that were published by all
16 newspapers in those days at that time? So you can get information about
17 this.
18 Do you know who the Minister of the Interior was during the 1980s
19 in Yugoslavia?
20 A. I've forgotten. I don't know.
21 Q. Do you know that it was Stane Dolanc, the leading Slovenian in
22 those days? He headed the Ministry of the Interior.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Tell me, please --
25 JUDGE MAY: It's now time to adjourn. Before we do, Mr. Groome,
Page 11877
1 can you just help us with this: We have a number of motions concerning a
2 Witness 36. I don't think he's on the list, but it would be helpful to
3 know when it's anticipated he's to give evidence.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we anticipate calling him either the
5 29th or 30th of this month.
6 JUDGE MAY: So he's not immediate.
7 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. May, in relation to
9 that, could I just say something? I do not have any kind of list of
10 coming witnesses except for the next two. I only know about the next two
11 witnesses. One is what's his name, (redacted)the one who comes after this
12 witness, and the one after that is some (redacted).
13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, can you get -- just a moment.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get this?
15 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.
16 Mr. Groome, the accused should have a longer list. Can you make
17 sure he gets one today to cover all next week and as far ahead as
18 possible.
19 MR. GROOME: I will, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Let me conclude, then. We broke off when you said that Zeljko
Page 11878
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13 English transcripts.
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Page 11879
1 Raznjatovic, Arkan, used to be an employee of the federal Ministry of the
2 Interior and that this was in the 1980s, or rather, that there was a trial
3 then, and before that, he had been an employee. So what? So what if he
4 was an employee of the Ministry of the Interior in the 1980s? So what?
5 What meaning does it have? What significance does it have?
6 JUDGE MAY: That is for us to say, whether it has any significance
7 at all, not for the witness.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. But do you remember that at the time, this same Ministry of the
10 Interior was headed by Stane Dolanc, the leading Slovenian in the then
11 Yugoslavia?
12 A. Yes, I remember that.
13 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you were asked whether Vuckovic -
14 is that the man, Cele?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Who was Vuckovic?
17 A. Vojin Vuckovic was -- and his brother, Dusan Vuckovic, they had a
18 military unit.
19 Q. Very well, then. I only want to clarify one point. You were
20 asked whether he had anything to do with the official authorities, the
21 government authorities of Yugoslavia
22 replied that he used to be employed as an instructor for the marshal arts
23 in the federal SUP. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Does this indicate a connection? For example, an English teacher
Page 11880
1 in the federal SUP or some other teacher - for physical education, for
2 example, the martial arts, English, French, maths, for example - is that
3 supposed to indicate that he had some sort of connection with the
4 authorities?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Does that mean that a male nurse, for example, employed in a state
7 hospital, has something to do with the state organs?
8 A. The comparison is not appropriate.
9 Q. Very well, Mr. Dulovic. Apart from the fact that he was a martial
10 arts instructor once upon a time, you don't know anything else about any
11 connection of his with the government authorities?
12 A. I have my observations.
13 Q. Well, what did you observe him to have connections to?
14 A. With the Sabac authorities, when he was tried there.
15 Q. Well, what was that connection?
16 A. He approached the president of the chamber and throughout the
17 trial, the two were whispering to each other, which was unprecedented in
18 the courtroom.
19 Q. Was the man sentenced?
20 A. He was given a suspended sentence.
21 Q. So you mean he's not in prison?
22 A. Vojin Vuckovic was not imprisoned.
23 Q. The man who killed 17 people; is that who you're referring to?
24 A. No. I'm referring to Vojin Vuckovic's elder brother.
25 Q. I'm interested in the one who was accused of murder.
Page 11881
1 A. You mean the one who was accused of 17 murders?
2 Q. Yes, yes.
3 A. He was sentenced to seven years in prison in the first instance.
4 I don't know whether he's still in prison or whether he's in prison at
5 all.
6 Q. You don't know what the final judgement was?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Very well. You say -- when you were asked how you came by your
9 information, I noted down your answer. You said that you found out from
10 people whom you assumed would know. That was what you said. Is that
11 correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you think that information gathered by such means, from people
14 whom you assume know something, can be taken as some sort of serious
15 information-gathering?
16 A. That depends on my judgement.
17 Q. Do you consider that when you are interviewing a criminal, such as
18 Cele, and he tells you something, that this is valid information?
19 A. In this particular case, I think so, yes. He was very convincing.
20 Q. Do you assume that someone who kills and loots, don't you think
21 that he might also lie, or do you think that he kills and loots but he
22 speaks the truth?
23 A. Not always.
24 Q. You said at one point, and you were referring to your trip to
25 Uzice, who was there with you? What other journalists were with you when
Page 11882
1 you were going to Zvornik and Visegrad? What other journalists were
2 there?
3 A. Bojana Marjanovic, a colleague of mine.
4 Q. Only she?
5 A. And the driver.
6 Q. Very well. You marked on a map the place from which you say you
7 saw fires burning on the other bank of the Drina
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Very well, Mr. Dulovic. Do you know, because you passed along
10 that way, that on the other side of the Drina
11 lot of woodland, and that you could not have seen those fires, by any
12 means, from the place you marked on the map?
13 A. That is not correct.
14 Q. Am I right in assuming that later on you visited those areas and
15 established what had happened where, and not that you saw fires at the
16 time? That was not possible.
17 A. It was possible, and what I said is correct.
18 Q. Very well.
19 A. Because there's a lot of smoke.
20 Q. Yes, but you can see on your map what the distance is. You can
21 see how many hills lie between the village you speak about and the spot.
22 A. The villages were named for me by people standing on the bank of
23 the Drina, on the Serbian side, and observing all this. When I asked them
24 what was going on, they told me the names of those villages: Redzici,
25 Djapici, Krasno Polje, Rzine, and Lonjin.
Page 11883
1 Q. On this map which I'm looking at is a sign you made, and on the
2 side you were looking at, there are some hundred villages, only on this
3 map that you provided, and this village of Redzici is in the middle of the
4 map. Is this what you're talking about, Mr. Dulovic?
5 A. Yes. This village was mentioned.
6 Q. Very well. And you claim that from there you were able to see the
7 fire in Redzici very well.
8 A. That's not what I said. That's what you're saying now.
9 Q. It wasn't me who brought this map. It wasn't me who explained
10 that Redzici was set on fire and that it is from this spot that you saw
11 the fire.
12 A. I saw fires. I do not know the area. I asked people what was
13 going on there, and they told me the villages that I have just named are
14 on fire.
15 Q. Very well, Mr. Dulovic. That's enough for us to estimate the
16 reliability of what you said.
17 A. Those are people who have farms there and who are familiar with
18 every house, let alone every village on the other side of the Drina.
19 Q. Can you see how many kilometres there are between that spot and
20 Redzici?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. And that's over hill tops?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Very well, Mr. Dulovic. Just one question about what you said
25 about your notes on what Seselj said when he was in Vukovar. Did you
Page 11884
1 publish an article about this?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. I assume that if you were keeping notes, you did that in order to
4 write something later on. Isn't that correct?
5 A. Yes, but I don't remember whether I mentioned that detail in my
6 text. I would have to check it.
7 Q. Very well. You say that the newspaper -- or rather, that the
8 policy was to cleanse the army of non-Serbian staff. Is that what you
9 said?
10 A. That's not what I said. You would have to read this for me.
11 Q. I think you said during the examination-in-chief - I don't know
12 where exactly - that there was a tendency to cleanse the army of
13 non-Serbian members. Did you say that?
14 A. It wasn't me who said that.
15 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the same Taso Enes, who was a
16 colonel, was later a Muslim general, for example?
17 A. I don't know whether he's a Muslim or not.
18 Q. You think that Enes is a Serbian name?
19 A. I don't want to think anything. I don't know whether he's a
20 Muslim or not.
21 Q. Very well. Do you know, for example, that even during the NATO
22 aggression in 1999, and for a longer time also, not only then, he was at
23 the head of the military security service, one of the most sensitive
24 positions, especially in wartime, that this was a Hungarian, Farkas?
25 A. Yes, I know.
Page 11885
1 Q. Do you know how many other important posts were held by people who
2 were not of Serbian ethnicity?
3 A. I don't know why you're saying all this when I did not say that
4 the army was being cleansed of foreign cadres. These were not my words.
5 That's not what I said. That was said by a man who had paramilitary
6 formations, who was a friend of yours; Vojislav Seselj.
7 Q. You know, Mr. Dulovic, that Vojislav Seselj was my opponent, not
8 my friend.
9 A. Well, if he's writing to you, he's your friend.
10 Q. He wrote a letter in connection with your testimony. He feels
11 it's his duty to put that forward, so I wouldn't conclude what you just
12 did.
13 You mention a telegram that you adduced here. Do some things
14 mentioned in that telegram indicate that there was a legal and, I would
15 say, correct behaviour of the army in relation to things you mention? For
16 example, this is a telegram which you say -- it says here: "Lieutenant
17 Colonel Milan Remija. He says activities and phenomena having a positive
18 effect on morale in the units of the division, and among others, he
19 mentions proper treatment of prisoners.
20 Does this indicate that there was an atmosphere in the army which
21 meant that treating prisoners properly had a positive effect on morale in
22 the army and that the army was nurturing proper behaviour toward those
23 they were at war with? Do you think that this confirms what I'm saying or
24 not?
25 A. It's not for me to explain this text, this telegram.
Page 11886
1 Q. Well, you provided it, so I suppose you had some intention when
2 you did that.
3 A. My intention was to produce it for anyone who -- for people to
4 estimate whose job it is.
5 Q. He suggests certain measures to improve morale, and the first
6 thing he mentions - these are bullets rather than numbers - but the first
7 one is that there should be an organised effort to disarm paramilitary
8 units, especially Dusan Silni, the Chetniks, and Arkan's soldiers, and
9 that the organs of the Republic of Serbia should be involved in this. Do
10 you feel that this suggestion is also a manifestation of a proper attitude
11 which the JNA had toward phenomena that you say you observed in the field?
12 A. It's not for me to put forward various opinions or interpretations
13 of this document.
14 JUDGE MAY: It should be noted for the record that the accused is
15 referring to Exhibit 342, tab 11.
16 Yes.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where it says number 11 here, Mr.
18 May, it's after this, but I suppose that you have better records than I
19 do. I usually don't get it so tidy. It's number 10 in my file, but I
20 assume there's no danger of confusion, because there's only one telegram
21 here.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You say that you are speaking only of what you saw, Mr. Dulovic,
24 but do you remember that on the road, not only at the border of Serbia, at
25 the border of Serbian territory, but also in the depth of the territory,
Page 11887
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13 English transcripts.
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Page 11888
1 you were able to see a large number of police checkpoints stopping and
2 searching vehicles, searching for weapons or anything that might indicate
3 looting, criminal offences, or something like that, and that this was done
4 meticulously and that there was no road without a police checkpoint
5 checking everybody to look for weapons, to disarm people, to arrest
6 offenders, looking for traces of looting or criminal offences? Do you
7 remember this?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You don't remember this?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You didn't pass through such checkpoints?
12 A. I passed through a checkpoint which looked like a regular one on
13 the Zagreb-Belgrade motorway.
14 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, Mr. Dulovic: Did you, anywhere or at
15 any time, in Serbia, see any kind of paramilitary unit?
16 A. I don't know where I could see them in Belgrade
17 did not, and I don't know what unit is a paramilitary one and what isn't,
18 and whether they were armed or not. What I said was that these people
19 received weapons once they were in the field, when they were far away from
20 the place they had come from. That's when they were issued weapons.
21 Q. All right. You told us about the events that took place in front
22 the Visegrad hotel when an officer of the Yugoslav army, the JNA, rather,
23 arrested somebody who had broken down the door of the hotel and stormed
24 the hotel, somebody who, in your opinion, was a member of some
25 paramilitary unit?
Page 11889
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you see anything at all that the army did which was not proper
3 and in keeping with the rules of service or military discipline and
4 conduct which you could point a finger at?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What, for example, Mr. Dulovic? Tell us.
7 A. At the Trpinjska Road, I saw a tank. On the sides of the turret,
8 there were skis, several pairs of skis, and this was absurd.
9 That's just a small example.
10 Q. All right. Let's move on.
11 As you described having seen a dead old man outside Visegrad, near
12 some kind of river, water, was it the Drina
13 A. It wasn't the River Drina, but yes, I did see a person like that.
14 He had his hands tied behind his back. He had some sort of cloth over his
15 mouth. He was on the bank. And there were some reservists there, amongst
16 them a doctor from Uzice Pozega whom I talked to. That corpse was lying
17 there 30 metres away from us. And I asked who that was and what had
18 happened, and he said the man had been strangled. He was a Muslim. I
19 asked how --
20 Q. Well, I heard about that.
21 A. Well, why are you asking me, then?
22 Q. Well, I wanted to ask you whether you had seen this old man who
23 had been strangled. All right. Well, I assume that the doctor could have
24 ascertained whether he had been strangled, so if one questions that kind
25 of observation. But let me ask you this: This happened outside Visegrad.
Page 11890
1 Was there another body found, that of some man, and nobody knew how he had
2 been killed? Did you see anybody else who had been killed in all these
3 activities that you described on your journey to Visegrad, at the entrance
4 to Visegrad, at the exit to Visegrad, or anything like that, anything that
5 happened?
6 A. For the first time, in April, when I wanted to enter Zvornik from
7 the other side, the opposite side, so not from the Serb side, I saw, by
8 the Drina River
9 whether they were men or women or anything else that could throw some
10 light onto who they were, their ethnic group, their age, their gender, et
11 cetera. I saw that, but that was on the other side, and the people who
12 were on that side saw that as well.
13 Q. Well, I understand that. From the Serbian territory, across the
14 Drina River
15 their ethnicity, et cetera, on the banks of the river, on
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina territory; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Later on, when you came again on the 10th of May, that was when
19 you saw, as far as I was able to gather from what you were saying, some
20 tanks, artillery, in Veliki Zvornik, and then there was this notice on
21 which it said Republika Srpska standing there.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know that at that time, the army of Republika Srpska had
24 already been established and that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had
25 adopted a new constitution composed of Serbia
Page 11891
1 of April, 1992? I assume that you remember that, when that was
2 proclaimed.
3 A. I don't remember that. What I do remember is that with the leader
4 of a tank, the commander of a tank, on the other side, who was on the
5 bridge, on the Muslim side, I talked to him when I passed by that way,
6 Karakaj. That was him. And it was a tank belonging to the Yugoslav army.
7 Q. Do you know that after the proclamation of the constitution of the
8 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that is to say, after the 27th of April,
9 an order was issued according to which all citizens of the Federal
10 Republic of Yugoslavia
11 duty-bound to return to the territory of the Federal Republic of
12 Yugoslavia?
13 A. I don't know that. I just remember what I saw and the
14 conversations I had with people.
15 Q. All right. But do you know -- are you aware of one very clear-cut
16 fact: The existence of a great Yugoslavia
17 throughout the territory of Yugoslavia. Since the FRY was established,
18 the members of that portion of the JNA who were citizens of Serbia and
19 Montenegro, which make up the FRY, were withdrawn from the territories
20 that were outside the FRY, just as the members who were on Serbia
21 Montenegro from other parts went back to their own republics? Are you
22 aware of that fact?
23 A. I have to say once again, you are now focusing on what I talked
24 about and what I had said I had seen and heard. That's all I can talk
25 about, what I have seen and heard. I'm not here to accuse or anything
Page 11892
1 else; I'm here to testify about the things that I saw and heard. What
2 you're talking about now, I really don't know anything about that.
3 Q. All right. So you have no notion of the fact that after the FRY
4 was set up, the portion of the JNA which was --
5 JUDGE MAY: The witness has given you his answer. Now, let's move
6 on to something else.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no more questions, Mr. May.
8 I have adhered to the time allotted to me.
9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
10 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I shall
12 try not to take up more than 10 or 20 minutes, to get through my questions
13 in that time.
14 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dulovic, as you yourself said, from May 1991
16 up until November, which is six or seven months in all, with several
17 smaller interruptions, that you were, almost throughout that time, in
18 Eastern Slavonia and that you toured the towns and villages in the area to
19 see what was going on.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In that time interval, up until the permit that you obtained, the
22 permit to tour the terrain in that area, up until that time you didn't
23 need a permit or authorisation of any kind, did you?
24 A. Not at the beginning, no.
25 Q. Thank you. Then you were issued a permit, and we have it in tab
Page 11893
1 1, the permit is contained in tab 1, and it is issued from the 9th of
2 October to the 9th of November, and you spent several days longer in the
3 area; isn't that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, throughout that period of time and the time when you had the
6 permit in your hands, as well as the period you didn't need authorisation,
7 were there any other journalists who were observers or representatives of
8 international humanitarian organisations in the area, especially in the
9 month prior to your obtaining a permit, when permits were not necessary?
10 A. There were journalists, yes. I remember that there were
11 international -- well, actually, I think -- I can't quite remember the
12 date, but in Borovo Selo, for instance, somebody was there. There was a
13 foreigner there who had to meet with Goran Hadzic to sign some sort of
14 agreement on an exchange, or rather, to organise liaison officers and
15 future -- future agreements on a ceasefire.
16 Q. Mr. Dulovic --
17 A. Henri Wejnaendts was his name. He was an envoy of Mr. van den
18 Broek.
19 Q. Thank you. I'm interested in knowing whether anybody throughout
20 that period of time, including the month up until the 12th of November,
21 whether anybody made it impossible for observers, journalists, foreign and
22 domestic, to follow the events in that region of Eastern Slavonia
23 A. For the most part, we were able to monitor events.
24 Q. Thank you. That's what I was interested in learning.
25 What I want to ask you now is this: On the 9th of October, once
Page 11894
1 you had obtained your permit authorising you to go to the area, and when
2 you arrived in the region, where was the army of Yugoslavia
3 what distance from the town of Vukovar
4 example? How far was it from there?
5 A. I would need a map to indicate this, but, for example, between
6 Borovo Selo -- they were actually along the edges of Borovo Selo, not as
7 you go towards Vukovar, but the other end, the opposite end. And I'm
8 talking about the tank unit that was stationed there. That means from
9 Borovo Selo, you have Borovo Selo, then you have the railway line, then
10 there's an airport, a sports airport, then you have Borovo Naselje.
11 Q. So it was somewhere in that area. How far from town?
12 A. Oh, from town, you mean. Well, I really can't say.
13 Q. How far from Borovo Selo?
14 A. Well, I never measured the distance. We would have to look at
15 maps to ascertain this.
16 Q. But the army was not in town, in the town proper?
17 A. Which town?
18 Q. In the town of Vukovar.
19 A. Well, I wasn't in Vukovar. I was in Borovo Selo, in the suburbs
20 of Vukovar.
21 Q. Well, how far away is that? What's the distance?
22 A. I don't know. I would be guessing.
23 Q. All right. Let's move forward, Mr. Dulovic.
24 You said yesterday that you had heard from a Yugoslav army officer
25 which units were in Vukovar.
Page 11895
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, did that same officer tell you which Croatian units were in
3 Vukovar itself?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 A. No, I didn't ask him that.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, when you received authorisation and a permit to
8 be able to see what was going on on this side, did you try and enter
9 Vukovar or get authorisation to enter the town itself to see what was
10 going on down there?
11 A. No, I did not attempt to do this. A colleague of mine did,
12 however. He was a correspondent for the Vecernje Novosti newspaper. He
13 tried from Trpinjska Cesta, from the Trpinje Road
14 started out, but he was killed later on. They found his body. In other
15 words, you could not enter Vukovar.
16 Q. Thank you. So the man who tried to enter was killed?
17 A. Yes. He was killed by the territorials of Vrsadin [phoen]. There
18 was a lot of shooting going on there. Everybody was shooting at everybody
19 else. There was a lot of fear. Nobody knew who was who in the camouflage
20 uniforms, civilian clothing, and so on.
21 Q. How come you know that he was killed by the territorials and not
22 by somebody else, a bullet from somebody else?
23 A. The lieutenant of the tank unit, Borisa Doknic, told me that, and
24 several other officers.
25 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, Mr. Dulovic, when the army was quite
Page 11896
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Page 11897
1 a long way from the centre of Vukovar, in the suburbs, were attempts made
2 to find a peaceful solution and to stop the conflict, to prevent any other
3 victims falling?
4 A. Yes, that's how I understood it. There were attempts of that
5 kind, as far as I recall.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, to move on, this is what I'm interested in: You
7 said that there was shooting from the town in response to the attack.
8 When they were attacked, they responded and fired. Now, I'm interested in
9 knowing how strong this shooting was. Was it the same as the attack? Was
10 the shooting of equal intensity on both sides or was it stronger from one
11 side?
12 A. This is difficult to assess. I was observing the situation from
13 the very edge of Borovo Selo, across the railway line. There were several
14 of us there, and we were observing what was going on. We saw our tanks,
15 Serbian tanks, that is to say, move towards Borovo Naselje - this is even
16 closer to Vukovar - across that airstrip, airport. There were several
17 such tanks, ten of them perhaps. And once they had moved in the direction
18 of the airport, the Croats used mortars and started shelling. Quite a lot
19 of people lost their lives from this mortar fire.
20 Q. Civilians or soldiers?
21 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, there were no civilians in attacks of this kind,
22 where you have tanks moving forward. They were soldiers. They were
23 reservists, or whoever they were, I don't really know. But the attack was
24 stopped. They responded by mortar fire, and it was the infantrymen
25 following the tanks that were the casualties. Some of the tanks came
Page 11898
1 across mines too, so they were stopped. The whole lot of them returned,
2 the attack was aborted. And once they had withdrawn, once our forces had
3 withdrawn, the mortar fire stopped. So that is one example of what things
4 looked like over there.
5 Q. Was that what it was like every time?
6 A. Not every time. It was two or three times. Actually, attempts --
7 two attempts of that kind were made. When Badza turned up, the commander
8 of the Territorial Defence, as I heard from people, he issued orders that
9 this kind of offensive should not be launched any more because there were
10 always casualties.
11 Q. Now, in what you said earlier on --
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. In your testimony previously, you said that grenades were thrown.
15 What kind were they?
16 A. Mostly mortar fire from Vukovar, because that was the most
17 effective way. I don't know what they had. They didn't have any
18 artillery pieces of any large calibre with them.
19 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us roughly, perhaps, in this response
20 to attacks, when they were shooting from Vukovar, how many soldiers fell
21 victim? How many soldiers were killed, at least as far as you were able
22 to see and judge?
23 A. I couldn't tell you exactly.
24 Q. Not even an approximation?
25 A. No, not even approximately.
Page 11899
1 Q. So it appears that it was right, what Sljivancanin was saying from
2 the tape, that young men, young soldiers, were being killed. That is not
3 being challenged at all. That is indisputable.
4 JUDGE MAY: So, Mr. Tapuskovic, there's no misunderstanding, as I
5 understand the position, what Sljivancanin was doing was preventing the
6 Red Cross to get into the hospital. And of course, it was from the
7 hospital that people were being removed. That's the real thrust of the
8 evidence.
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not going into that. You
10 heard Sljivancanin say during that conversation that young people were
11 being killed. I wanted the Trial Chamber to find out that this fire that
12 came in response from Vukovar killed a lot of young soldiers. I want you,
13 Your Honours, to understand that, that shells were fired from there, and
14 gunfire came from that direction. I don't know about all the rest that
15 has to do with Sljivancanin. Sljivancanin said young men are being
16 killed, so that is correct. In that fire that came by way of a response,
17 a lot of young soldiers were killed, and Witness Dulovic mentioned it
18 yesterday, and I think it is noteworthy and that's why I'm referring to
19 it.
20 JUDGE MAY: Even if so, what happened thereafter at Ovcara, of
21 course really can't be justified, if true, as alleged, by the killing of
22 soldiers, can it?
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am one of the
24 persons who is profoundly convinced, certainly, just as you are convinced,
25 that this was not justified. I am equally convinced. But one has to know
Page 11900
1 what actually happened in Vukovar before that as well, what it all looked
2 like and how people were being killed there, perhaps for nothing. And
3 then it led to this, which certainly did happen. I'm not trying to
4 challenge that in any way. This is an atrocity that all citizens of
5 Yugoslavia took as very bad news. I have to assure you of that. But you
6 should realise what was going on as the army was approaching Vukovar.
7 That has to be known if you want to have a valid overview of the entire
8 problem. Nobody is challenging what happened in Ovcara, let alone I, as
9 an amicus. So this should be discussed in a proper manner now, all of it.
10 Your Honours, Witness Dulovic testified here he was in that area
11 for six months, perhaps even more. I'm interested in the following: Is
12 it possible that Witness Dulovic does not know -- well, yes, I accept that
13 there were casualties amongst the Croats. Nobody is challenging that
14 either. But is it possible that he doesn't know anything about this,
15 since he was there as a reporter, that other people were being killed as
16 well? I'm not going to refer to their ethnicity. Never mind. But it
17 wasn't only Croats who were being killed. There were all sorts of things
18 going on over there. Well, that is what I wanted to ask Mr. Dulovic. Is
19 it possible that he did not know what happened to the Serbs as well?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The official sources at that time
21 did not wish to talk about this, which was logical. As you say, yes,
22 people were being killed, but that would not have sounded very good. That
23 was somebody's assessment. Namely, the number of these victims,
24 casualties, was not accessible, nor did any official sources provide such
25 information to the media.
Page 11901
1 Q. But you were there on the ground. You interviewed many people.
2 You talked about many people. You found out about many Croatian victims.
3 Is it possible that you did not find anything out about any other victims
4 of other ethnicities? That's what I'm asking you.
5 A. Victims, during the war?
6 Q. No. I'm talking about the six months that preceded the siege of
7 Vukovar, from May to October.
8 A. No, I did not. I could not find out about that.
9 Q. Very well. Thank you. I'm also interested about the Bosnian
10 side. You say that you spent a month there. You explained that, that you
11 were in Bosnia for a month. Is that right?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Well, how long were you there?
14 A. I was there twice in Bosnia.
15 Q. All right. And you also talked to people, didn't you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You were in Zvornik that was under the control of the territorials
18 in Bosnia. Could you go to the territory that was controlled by the
19 Muslim forces at all?
20 A. I don't know under whose control it was, but in Zvornik itself,
21 the forces that were in Zvornik did not allow people to go beyond, to
22 other villages outside Zvornik.
23 Q. I am going to conclude now. This is my last question. I don't
24 want to keep the Trial Chamber any longer. Is it possible that you did
25 not hear anything? You're a journalist. You talk to people and you did
Page 11902
1 not go there to resolve the kind of conflict that you described, but you
2 went there to find out what was going on over there. You talked about a
3 mosque that was destroyed. You talked about casualties among the Muslims.
4 You did not say a word about rumours -- no, not about rumours, but you did
5 not talk to people about whether there were any victims among the Serbs as
6 well. Do you know anything about that? Were there any victims among the
7 Serbs?
8 A. Certainly there were.
9 Q. Do you know about that?
10 A. Certainly there were.
11 Q. Did you ask about this?
12 A. People told me about this.
13 Q. What did they tell you?
14 A. I don't recall any longer. I think that I published that, as a
15 matter of fact.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.
19 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:
20 Q. I ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 342, tab 1.
21 And while that's being done: Mr. Dulovic, Mr. Milosevic asked you about
22 the period of time for which you had authorisation to be in Vukovar, and I
23 want to ask you: Did you get an extension of the dates on -- of the
24 permit that you produced here in Court?
25 MR. GROOME: I ask that the usher just remain there. We'll ask
Page 11903
1 that this be put on the overhead.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And how was that extension indicated on that permit?
4 A. After this expired, I went somewhere in town, or I can't remember
5 any longer, but I went to the press bureau of the army, and I found the
6 man who was in charge of permits. He's a major. I think his name was
7 Popovic. He wrote here that the permit continues to be valid, that is to
8 say, for a longer period of time, longer than what it says up here,
9 between the 9th of October and further on.
10 MR. GROOME: I would ask that the usher place that on the
11 overhead, and if you could use the pointer, just indicate where that was
12 noted on the permit. I'd ask that it be slid up some.
13 A. [Indicates]
14 Q. And you're pointing to the lower left-hand portion of the
15 document; is that correct?
16 A. Here it says, "The permit continues to be valid," and then, in
17 brackets, "It is accepted from the order issued by the federal Secretariat
18 of National Defence," and here is a signature of the major. It says
19 "Major" and then his signature, and then there's a stamp. And that is how
20 I managed to stay on for a longer period of time without any deadline.
21 This is 923, that's the military post code, and this is another one. So
22 there are two stamps, as a matter of fact. So I went to two official
23 military posts where I received this.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Dulovic, during this time period, you had other permits.
25 You had more than just the two permits that you have produced here in
Page 11904
1 Court; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. Now, I want to ask you about whether or not you had a permit to be
4 in Zvornik on the 10th of April of 1992. Had you secured authorisation
5 before travelling to Zvornik?
6 A. On the 10th of April?
7 Q. The first time you were in Zvornik.
8 A. When I first tried to enter Zvornik; is that what you mean?
9 Q. Yes. My apologies. When you tried to enter Zvornik.
10 A. Yes, I had a permit then too, but at that time, nothing helped.
11 It was not possible to enter Zvornik. Quite simply, they did not let
12 people cross the bridge.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic asked you whether you had ever been impeded
14 from performing your duties as a journalist. Did you consider the refusal
15 of being allowed into Zvornik despite the permit, did you consider that an
16 impediment to fulfilling your duties?
17 A. Absolutely. Perhaps I could recall this now, but there were
18 places where no permits were valid, or rather, even with a permit, one
19 could not look at something, talk to someone, enter a certain locality.
20 Q. Are there other places that you are personally aware of that,
21 despite having a permit, you were impeded from entering an area where the
22 Yugoslav army was present?
23 A. I don't know. I don't know. I can't remember. Vukovar, and this
24 in Zvornik, the first time. I really cannot.
25 Q. Mr. Dulovic, the next area that I want to inquire about is
Page 11905
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Page 11906
1 Mr. Milosevic asked you about whether you had ever witnessed the JNA doing
2 something which you deemed improper, and you talked about an observation
3 you made regarding a tank. I want to recall your attention to the area of
4 Visegrad. At the time that you were in Visegrad, first at the
5 fortification of the Yugoslav army and then in the town, did you form an
6 impression about whether the Yugoslav army could have entered the town
7 earlier than it did?
8 A. Yes. At the time when I arrived there, I said that the town
9 looked almost like a ghost town. I saw only one person doing some digging
10 in his garden, and I had the impression that the town was empty. I found
11 this a bit strange. The army was there, there was a military presence,
12 and now they were supposed to enter town and fight, and enter a town that
13 had been abandoned.
14 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that Mr. Dulovic be shown Defence Exhibit 56
15 and I ask that it be turned to the last page so he can see the signature
16 of the person on that last page.
17 Q. Mr. Dulovic, I'd ask you to look at the signature and the name of
18 that person on the last page. I'd ask you to read it for us.
19 A. Yes. The district public attorney, public prosecutor, Branko
20 Njegovan. I talked to him in Sabac. I interviewed him.
21 Q. And the interview that you conducted with this prosecutor, is it
22 contained on the videotape we saw a portion of, Prosecution Exhibit 342,
23 tab 13, the Yellow Wasp video?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. What was the question you put to Mr. Njegovan during the course of
Page 11907
1 your interview with him?
2 A. I did that interview a long time ago. It was relatively short,
3 but I really cannot remember what I asked him. Perhaps there were several
4 questions.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would ask that the witness be shown
6 Prosecution Exhibit 342, tab 13, page 14. I apologise. I'm sorry, page
7 24.
8 Q. I'm showing -- asking you to take a look at a transcript of the
9 interview. I'd ask you to read it and see if that refreshes your
10 recollection.
11 JUDGE KWON: Is it the same page number?
12 MR. GROOME: Yes. The Serbian and the English are on the same
13 page.
14 Q. If you look at 24 and then go on to 25.
15 A. Which page?
16 Q. Bottom of page 24 and then going on to page 25.
17 Can you see the heading "Branko Njegovan"?
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. Does that refresh your recollection regarding the interview that
20 you had with the prosecutor?
21 A. I looked at this first page, or rather, there seems to be a
22 constant mistake here throughout. It says "Jovan Duljic," and my name is
23 Dulovic, and this is me. Yes. Yes, I recognise this.
24 Q. Can you summarise for us what the prosecutor told you -- or, I'm
25 sorry. I return to my original question: What question did you put to
Page 11908
1 the prosecutor?
2 A. At that time, I had in my hands the indictment that had been
3 issued against the Vuckovic brothers. I asked the prosecutor why there
4 was no mention in the indictment of the transfer of civilians from the
5 settlement of Divice in Celopek, where the cultural centre was and where
6 civilians from Celopek were detained.
7 Q. Did you also ask him why none of the survivors were called at the
8 trial of these two men?
9 A. Probably. Yes. Yes. Now I remember. There were no witnesses
10 whatsoever who would give evidence about what Vuckovic did. Dusan
11 Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic. There was a guard there who was heard, I
12 think, but not in Sabac. This man did not want to come as a witness at
13 all when Dusan Vuckovic -- to testify, rather, about the killing of 17
14 civilians at the cultural centre in Celopek, when Repic did that. He
15 didn't want to testify about this.
16 Q. Mr. Dulovic --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- my question to you is, more specifically: What did the
19 prosecutor tell you was the reason why he did not call any of the
20 survivors at the trial of these two men?
21 A. Allegedly, he could not get in touch with them, as far as I can
22 remember. Perhaps it's somewhere in here, so I'd like to have a look at
23 it. But he could not get in touch with the witnesses.
24 Q. I draw your attention to page 25, line 8.
25 A. Yes. Yes. That's it.
Page 11909
1 Q. Did you also speak with one of the survivors who expressed to you
2 that they were willing to come or were willing to give evidence on
3 videotape but that they had not been contacted again by Mr. Njegovan?
4 A. I just remember my conversation with an architect, Himza Tulic.
5 In Zvornik, he was in charge of the town planning institution. I talked
6 to him in Austria. He told me about this, about all the crimes in
7 Zvornik, and he mentioned the Vuckovic brothers and many others, both
8 victims and criminals, by name. I can't really -- I have to have a look
9 at this. What was the question?
10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Dulovic, I think we have the gist of the matter.
11 MR. GROOME: I'll move on, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Dulovic, the last couple of questions I have for you regarding
13 the large numbers of crimes, very horrific descriptions of crimes that
14 Mr. Milosevic has put to you and asked you whether you are aware of them
15 as being part of the context of the time you were there and the crimes
16 that you gave some information regarding, and my question for you is the
17 following: During the entire time you were in 81 Ulica Nova in the
18 presence of the JNA, of the Vukovar, Territorial Defence, of Seselj's men,
19 of other paramilitaries, did you hear any of these people in that place
20 you've described as a command centre, did you hear any of these people
21 talking about the crimes and the atrocities that Mr. Milosevic has put to
22 you here today?
23 A. I think that they did not tell me about it at the time. I don't
24 remember. That wouldn't surprise me, though, because this is a part of
25 Vukovar that is called Sajmiste and that has a Serb population. They were
Page 11910
1 there all the time, and according to what they had said, the Croats had
2 never come there and had had no interventions in that area, Sajmiste.
3 Ulica Nova 81 belongs to that area as well. Now, whether they knew about
4 this or did not is something I don't know, but I don't remember that they
5 told me about this.
6 Q. And when you interviewed Serbs that had been trapped in Vukovar,
7 did the course of those interviews, did they ever describe for you some of
8 the atrocities Mr. Milosevic has described as being committed against
9 Serbs? Did they ever describe those types of atrocities to you?
10 A. No. No. I'm sure they didn't. They didn't describe the things
11 Mr. Milosevic mentioned.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dulovic.
13 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This issue of a conversation with
17 the prosecutor and so on and so forth was not touched upon during the
18 examination-in-chief, and in view of this, I would like to ask the witness
19 a few questions about this.
20 JUDGE MAY: It arose from what you -- the document that you put in
21 to the witness, and on the whole, we have to have a rule which means that
22 examination has to come to an end.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we will make an exception on this
25 occasion, and you can ask questions, but you've got two minutes to do it,
Page 11911
1 two or three minutes at the most. I'm not going to let you have a
2 free-ranging examination.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't intend to ask all the
4 questions I would wish to ask. I just want to clarify a certain point in
5 relation to this trial.
6 Further cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Since you were a journalist reporting on court
8 proceedings for a long time, I assume you are aware of the fact that the
9 authorities in Serbia and in Yugoslavia, then as now, respected the
10 division of power, and that there is executive, legislative, and judicial
11 power, the judiciary. Are you aware of this, Mr. Dulovic?
12 A. This was on paper only. The judiciary was never independent, and
13 neither was the legislative branch of government. Everything was
14 controlled by the executive government, as you know well.
15 Q. In this particular case, did the police, which is the executive
16 branch, arrest the perpetrators, submit information showing that he had
17 killed 17 people, then four others, that previously he had tortured them,
18 and did they not hand them over to the judiciary?
19 A. And unfortunately, there were no witnesses.
20 Q. Mr. Dulovic, I'm asking you only one thing: As I know that there
21 is no president of a chamber or a judge in Yugoslavia
22 that there had been any interventions telling him how to judge, do you
23 think that the executive branch of government completed their task when
24 they arrested this man and handed him over, along with all the information
25 and the charges contained in the indictment, they handed him over to the
Page 11912
1 judiciary?
2 A. Public prosecutors in Serbia, during the reign of the accused,
3 were absolutely linked to politics and to what they were told by the
4 executive branch of government; whom to prosecute, whom not to prosecute,
5 whether to issue an indictment or not, and the accused knows this full
6 well.
7 Q. Mr. Dulovic, if we were to accept your assumption --
8 A. This is not an assumption. For years I --
9 Q. Did the public prosecutor in this case submit an indictment? Did
10 he issue an indictment? You say they were told whether to do so or not.
11 Did they issue an indictment, and does the indictment say that this man
12 tortured people, that he killed 17 people, that later on he killed another
13 four, that he was charged with this and handed over to the court?
14 JUDGE MAY: This is the last question.
15 Yes, Mr. Dulovic. Do you want to reply?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do wish to reply. This trial,
17 Your Honours, was the most shameful thing I had ever seen in more than 40
18 years. This was unprecedented. For example, at that trial, there was a
19 witness, a Muslim woman who had been raped by this man Repic. She had to
20 answer, weeping, before the Court, to all the shameless questions put to
21 her by the presiding judge as to the manner in which the rape took place,
22 with every detail, whereas under the Criminal Code in our country, rape
23 trials are held in closed session and the public is thought to be
24 undesirable. In this case, the public gallery was full, and this woman
25 had to answer, in shameful detail, as to how she was raped. This is the
Page 11913
1 sort of judiciary Mr. Milosevic is talking about. She had to appear in
2 court for about three times and tell the same story over and over again.
3 I want to tell you that this woman who was a victim was humiliated, was
4 horribly humiliated. That's what I want to say.
5 JUDGE MAY: We simply cannot go on in this way. You've asked your
6 questions.
7 Mr. Dulovic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming
8 to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes, please.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.
13 [Open session]
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
16 WITNESS: WITNESS C-1141
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.
21 Yes, Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before we begin, some of the witnesses
23 -- or a portion of the witness's testimony which is most directly
24 relevant to the indictment begins on paragraph 8. I believe it would be
25 appropriate to take the rest of it in more summary fashion, and with the
Page 11914
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Page 11915
1 Court's permission, would propose to lead him through the first few
2 paragraphs of his proposed testimony.
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. When you get to anything likely to be
4 controversial, do it in the normal way, but of course lead him through the
5 non-controversial matters.
6 MR. GROOME: As we start, I would ask to go into private session
7 to ask him his name and a couple of biographical details that may come up
8 in the course of his testimony.
9 JUDGE MAY: For the record, his name for these purposes should be
10 given too.
11 MR. GROOME: That's C-1141, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
13 [Private session]
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
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25 (redacted)
Page 11916
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9 (redacted)
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Page 11917
1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 MR. GROOME:
5 Q. Witness C-1141, I want to ask you to tell us how many different
6 villages make up the municipality of Hrvatska Dubica.
7 A. The former municipality of Hrvatska Dubica. Why "former"?
8 Because when I came to Hrvatska Dubica, the municipality was dissolved and
9 it fell under Hrvatska Kostajnica. However, within the former
10 municipality, there were four villages.
11 Q. And can you tell us the names of those villages.
12 A. Zivaja, Cerovljani, Bacin, Slabinja.
13 Q. And which of those villages were predominantly occupied by Croat
14 people?
15 A. Bacin and Cerovljani.
16 Q. And which ones were primarily occupied by Serb people?
17 A. Zivaja and Slabinja.
18 Q. And was there one place in Hrvatska Dubica that was approximately
19 50/50 between Serbs and Croats, approximately half Croat, half Serb?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. And was that the village of Hrvatska Dubica itself?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. Now, prior to 1990, how would you characterise the relationship
24 between Serbs and Croats?
25 A. In brief, or do you want me to describe it?
Page 11918
1 Q. Briefly, please.
2 A. Well, in brief, quite normal. Everybody lived together in
3 harmony. There was no hatred.
4 Q. Can you tell us approximately when you noticed a change in this in
5 Hrvatska Dubica?
6 A. In 1990, after the multiparty elections had been held. It was
7 then that more than one party appeared in Dubica.
8 Q. Would it be fair to say that as the relationship between the two
9 ethnic communities deteriorated, that both sides began to arm themselves
10 and mobilise for a possible conflict?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did there come a time when paramilitaries from the Republic of
13 Serbia arrived in Hrvatska Dubica?
14 A. I don't know that.
15 Q. Did there come a time when you left Hrvatska Dubica?
16 A. Yes. Yes. I left it.
17 Q. And when did you leave it? Just a date at this point in time.
18 A. On the 13th of September, the bridge in Hrvatska Dubica was blown
19 up. I think on the 14th of September, which was a Thursday, I learned
20 about what had happened. I took my wife to Zagreb
21 home.
22 JUDGE MAY: Which year? Can we determine that?
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. Are we speaking about --
25 A. 1990 -- no. 1991.
Page 11919
1 Q. After bringing your wife to Zagreb
2 Dubica?
3 A. No, no. I didn't take her to Zagreb
4 stayed on at home. And on that Thursday, Friday, and Saturday evening, I
5 was there. Then I went about two kilometres further away, to a hamlet
6 near Dubica, where a friend of mine lived, someone who had been a
7 colleague of mine at the school. I went there on a motorcycle. When I
8 arrived at his house, I found him there, and his father, and an elderly
9 woman whom I didn't know. They were getting ready to go and loading
10 something onto a tractor. I asked them what was going on, and they said
11 they had to leave. I left my motorcycle in the basement of his house, and
12 together with him, his father, and that elderly woman, I got on the
13 tractor and we went off in the direction of Kutina, under cover of night.
14 Q. Now, did there come a time after this point in time that you
15 returned to Hrvatska Dubica through Bosnia
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. And can you tell us when, please?
18 A. On the 2nd of October, 1991.
19 Q. You have previously described for us that the bridge was blown up.
20 Can you describe the condition of the bridge when you returned on this
21 day?
22 A. One side had been destroyed, but you could cross the bridge
23 because they had put something there, some kind of boulders or broad
24 planks, something of that kind. So you could go up and down these planks
25 and cross that way.
Page 11920
1 Q. Now, this time when you returned to your village, do you see armed
2 forces in and around the village?
3 A. Not in the village, but outside the village there were some there,
4 towards the Sava River. About four or five kilometres away there's a
5 forest -- actually, it's Cerovljani and Zivaja, those two places, and from
6 Jesenice onwards. That's where the woods start. So it's a real forest,
7 actually. And then you have the Sava River. And that's where the front
8 line was.
9 Q. Did you see members of the Yugoslav People's Army as part of these
10 armed forces?
11 A. I saw reservists, and they were wearing the grey-green type of
12 uniform. They were reservists, and I knew some of them because they were
13 locals.
14 Q. And they were reservists of the Yugoslav People's Army?
15 You need to --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you see any members of the SAO Krajina police present?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Did you see any paramilitary forces at that time?
20 A. Apart from those reservists, and apart from those policemen, I
21 didn't see anybody else.
22 Q. Do you know where the headquarters of the police -- of the SAO
23 Krajina police were in your area?
24 A. Yes, I do know that. It was in the old school building. We've
25 got a new school building now, but this was in the old building, in the
Page 11921
1 old school, and that's where an agricultural cooperative was set up as
2 well. Anyway, it's the old school building.
3 Q. At this point in time, who is the commander of the local police
4 brigade?
5 A. I don't really know -- actually, there were two of them, two men.
6 One was Veljko Radunovic, and the other was his son, Stevo. I would say
7 that they were the two main people in charge of that. Nobody told me, but
8 I think that they were in command, and I knew both of them, yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I think we ought to
12 establish whether a local brigade of the police force existed, because a
13 brigade is a very large formation for such a small place.
14 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Milosevic, you can ask about that when it's
15 your turn.
16 Yes.
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. Witness C-1141, can you tell us about how many members made up the
19 local police force in your area?
20 A. About 30. 31 or 32, I'm not quite sure.
21 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to the 20th of October, 1991.
22 Do you recall where you were that morning?
23 A. I remember, yes. I was at home.
24 Q. Do you remember the day of the week?
25 A. It was a Sunday, Sunday morning, about half past 8.00.
Page 11922
1 Q. Did there come a time when you went to a neighbour's house to
2 borrow a cup of milk?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. What occurred while you were in your neighbour's house?
5 A. While the old woman was pouring some milk for me in her home, her
6 daughter was outside in the yard, and she suddenly rushed into the
7 house --
8 Q. Did she say anything when she entered the house?
9 A. And when she came in, she said to me, (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 Q. I'd ask you not to mention any nickname or any other personal
12 identifying information in open session.
13 Did you go outside your neighbour's house?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Can you describe for us what you saw.
16 A. When I came up to the door, the door of my house, the entrance
17 door, on the fence, actually, the iron fence, I saw a young man standing
18 there, waiting for me. It was raining, so he had a sort of rain cloak
19 over him. There was a truck standing behind him. And he asked me if that
20 was my house. I said yes, it was. And he said, "Well, get ready, because
21 we're going off to the fire brigade building for a meeting there."
22 Q. Witness C-1141, could you tell us: Was there anything written on
23 the side of the truck?
24 A. Yes, there was. What it said was "Milicija SAO Krajina."
25 Q. Other than the man who you just described to us spoke to you, were
Page 11923
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Page 11924
1 there any other men present at that time?
2 A. Yes. There was another person, the driver of the truck, who was
3 in the truck. He was a young man, who did the driving. Did either of
4 these men have uniforms on, that you could tell?
5 A. As it was raining, the one that met me, who wasn't in the truck,
6 was wearing this sort of rain cloak, something of that nature. I didn't
7 see the other one, whether he was in uniform or not, because he was
8 sitting inside the truck.
9 Q. Now, after the man said, "Well, get ready, because we're going off
10 to the fire brigade building for a meeting," what did you do?
11 A. I went inside the house to put something on. I took a jacket, my
12 cap, and went outside. I locked the door to the house and the gate and
13 went into the truck. I said that I could come on foot, because I knew the
14 way, and he said, "Never mind. It's raining. It's best that you come in
15 the truck with us, so that's what I did. I got up into the truck. There
16 were four old women there, and they were sitting on a sort of wooden bench
17 or something like that. The truck had a canvas awning over it because it
18 was raining. And right after that, my neighbour turned up, the one that
19 had given me the milk, and she was accompanied by her daughter. Some
20 other neighbours turned up too: A woman and her husband, both of them were
21 pensioners.
22 Q. Now, sir, when you say they turned up, did they also enter the
23 rear of the truck, where you were?
24 A. No, they didn't get up on their own. They were assisted up. The
25 soldier helped them get up onto the truck, helped these old women to get
Page 11925
1 up onto the truck.
2 Q. Now, did there come a time when the truck left the area by your
3 house and travelled somewhere else?
4 A. No. When we got into the truck, the truck started off, and on the
5 way to the fire brigade station, it stopped at several points, and every
6 time it stopped, people would get onto the truck; old men and women.
7 Q. Now, before you arrived at the fire station, approximately how
8 many people were in the rear of the truck with you?
9 A. I counted about 23 of us who had been boarded up onto the truck
10 and who got out at the fire station.
11 Q. And all of the other people that were in the truck, did you
12 recognise them as being other people who lived in the same area as
13 yourself?
14 A. Yes, that's right. They were all from Dubica. Of course I knew
15 them. I taught their children and grandchildren.
16 Q. When you arrived at the fire station, what happened?
17 A. We got off the truck. It was still raining. And we stood outside
18 in front of the fire station, under the edge of the roof. And after five
19 or perhaps ten minutes - I can't say exactly, but very soon afterwards - a
20 bus turned up. It had also come from Dubica. And the bus brought some
21 old women and men, also from Dubica. There were fewer of them, perhaps
22 about - well, I can't say exactly - 15 or 16 of them.
23 Q. Can you tell us what time it was that you arrived at the fire
24 station?
25 A. It was 8.30, thereabouts, or maybe closer to 9.00. Between 8.30
Page 11926
1 and 9.00.
2 Q. Did there come a time when you entered the fire station?
3 A. When the other lot got off, the old men and women from the bus, we
4 stayed outside for a while, and sometime after 9.00 a woman came, and a
5 man. They were armed. And they told us to go inside the fire station.
6 We all went inside and we never went out again.
7 Q. Aside from the two people you've just described as being armed,
8 were there any other people at that time by the fire station that had
9 weapons?
10 A. No. They were guards. There were three guards in two places, and
11 they would take turns and have shifts. They were all armed. Three times
12 two.
13 Q. The guards that you're describing now, were you able to identify
14 their uniform, or uniforms?
15 A. Olive-green, yes, grey-green.
16 Q. And did that identify them as belonging to a particular unit?
17 A. Yes, it did.
18 Q. And what unit did they belong to?
19 A. I don't know the name, but the headquarters of that unit was in
20 Zivaja. The commander of that headquarters or that unit, or whatever it
21 was, a battalion or whatever, but the commander was -- I don't know him
22 personally. He was a middle-aged man.
23 Q. Were these guards, were they military personnel or police
24 personnel?
25 A. Military personnel, because they wore the olive-green uniforms.
Page 11927
1 Q. Now, can you approximate for us how many people altogether were in
2 the fire station after having been collected from throughout the area?
3 A. Fifty-three.
4 Q. Can you give us some idea of what their ages were?
5 A. All of them over 60 years of age, except one person, a young boy.
6 I think he was a boy. He was -- he had a broken leg. I don't know how he
7 came to break it. So he couldn't walk very well. He limped a little, and
8 his leg was in a plaster cast. He was younger. Otherwise, all the others
9 were old people.
10 Q. Aside from the young boy, who was the youngest -- next youngest
11 person in that group of people?
12 A. Well, I couldn't really say. I don't know. I was younger than
13 those old people there, at the time. I was then, at least.
14 Q. Can you describe approximately how many were men, how many were
15 women?
16 A. Well, I would say half/half. Perhaps there were more women than
17 men.
18 Q. And can you describe for us the ethnic make-up of that group of
19 53?
20 A. There were Serbs and there were Croats and there were Muslims too.
21 Mostly they were Croats.
22 Q. What is your ethnicity?
23 A. I'm a Serb.
24 Q. Now, were the people that were gathered in the fire station, were
25 they free to leave?
Page 11928
1 A. No. No.
2 Q. You described for us being told about the necessity of you going
3 to the fire station for a meeting. Was a meeting ever held?
4 A. Well, while they were rounding up the people, and when they came
5 to my house - I'm going back a bit now - they said that we would go for a
6 meeting and then go back, but no meeting was ever held, no.
7 Q. Now, you've told us that the 53 people weren't free to leave. Can
8 you describe what specific observations you made that led you to the
9 conclusion that you were not free to leave the fire station?
10 A. Well, the guard. As the guards took turns, the first lot of
11 guards, the first two guards on duty, when they came inside, read out a
12 list of names. Somebody had provided them with a list and they read out
13 the names, and I counted about 53 persons on that list. I was number 53
14 called out. Then they went out, they locked the door, and one of the
15 guards went one way behind the fire station and the other one stood guard
16 in front of the station.
17 Q. Was there a toilet in the fire station?
18 A. No, there wasn't. There was, but you couldn't reach it from the
19 building. You had to go round about. You would have to have gone outside
20 the building, round the corner, into the toilet, that way.
21 Q. Were the people inside the building permitted to walk freely out
22 to the toilet and use it when they needed it?
23 A. I saw some people who needed to go to the toilet knock on the
24 door, the guard would open the door, ask them what they wanted, they asked
25 to be excused, and then he would take the person out, lock the door again.
Page 11929
1 He probably took them to the lavatory around the building. And then after
2 that, they would return. He would unlock the door, the person would come
3 back into the room, the guard would lock the door again and leave. So if
4 somebody asked to be excused, they would allow them to, escort them out.
5 Q. Did there come a time during the course of that day that you had
6 an argument with one of the guards?
7 A. Well, I didn't have an argument with the guard. What happened was
8 that I went out perhaps 5.00, half past 5.00. I knocked -- or rather, I
9 recognised one of the guards who was on duty. He was a (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 something, but he took me out, locked the door, and we stood outside. It
14 was raining all the time. We were standing by the staircase, under the
15 roof. And he asked me what I wanted, and he [as interpreted] said, "Well,
16 let me go home. I don't think there's going to be a meeting of any kind
17 here. So it's getting dark, and can I go home? And I haven't got enough
18 clothes on me. I'm going to be very cold if I stay around like this." He
19 kept me there and tried to convince me not to leave, that somebody would
20 turn up and that we would have a meeting and that we could all go home
21 after the meeting. However, during this conversation --
22 Q. Sir, before you go further, I want to just establish: You said
23 that this discussion with the guard began somewhere between 5.00 and 5.30;
24 is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 11930
1 Q. And that you first entered the fire station at 9.00 in the
2 morning; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The 53 people that you've told us about -- I'm sorry.
5 A. At 1730 hours, not 5.30 a.m., I mean 1730, that is to say, in the
6 afternoon, towards evening. That was the time.
7 Q. Yes. Now, during the period of time between when you first went
8 into the fire station and when you had this discussion with the guard
9 between 5.00 and 5.30, was the entire group of 53 people kept together in
10 the fire station?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did there come a time when some of the people were allowed to
13 leave?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Please describe how many people were allowed to leave.
16 A. Six of them. Six.
17 Q. And can you tell us the circumstances under which they were
18 permitted to leave.
19 A. Somebody came and asked to be taken out. I saw one person. I saw
20 one person coming. I could see this through the window. They were
21 standing outside the station. The guard came back to look for that
22 person, and that person was allowed to leave, and they are alive. All
23 those six people are alive to this day.
24 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention back to the time of your having
25 this argument with the guard. Did something happen during the course of
Page 11931
1 that discussion?
2 A. Yes, it did. I said to the guard, "Listen here. I'm cold. If
3 you don't let me go home, I'm going to go home of my own free will, and
4 you can shoot after me." He began to cry, and he said, (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted). And he said, "Please don't leave while
7 I'm on duty." That meant that he was afraid and that if I left and the
8 other shift turned up, there would be a roll-call.
9 However, in the meantime, a car drew up. I saw the lights. And
10 they parked about 50 metres before the fire station. They stopped in
11 front of a building. Opposite that building was a post office, the old
12 post office. A person got out of the car. They didn't have a cap on
13 their head, just a sort of raincoat or cloak. I didn't know who that was.
14 But that person made a sign. They didn't say anything, but they made a
15 sign to the guard to call him to come up. I waited by the staircase while
16 the guard went to see this man. He went up to the car. They had a
17 discussion of some kind. I don't know what they were saying. The guard
18 returned, and this is what he said: "Go up to the car. The man wants to
19 see you." I did that. I went up to the car and I recognised -- do I have
20 to say the name? Janjeta?
21 Q. Is there a good reason why -- do you feel you cannot say the name?
22 A. Well, no. I haven't mentioned any names so far, but there's no
23 reason I shouldn't, no.
24 Q. So tell us: Who is the person that was at the car.
25 A. He was also a pupil of mine, but I heard people say later on that
Page 11932
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13 English transcripts.
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Page 11933
1 he might have been the guard shift leader. I don't know what he was, but
2 that's what other people said.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could we go into private session for
4 just a minute?
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
6 [Private session]
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
20 MR. GROOME:
21 Q. Sir, now, this person who was at the car, did he say anything to
22 you regarding your being detained in the fire station?
23 A. Not really. He didn't say anything about detention. But the
24 person asked me what I had said to the guard. I said I had asked the
25 guard to let me go home and get some warmer clothes, because night was
Page 11934
1 drawing close and it was cold. And he asked me, "What else did you say to
2 him?" I said, "Well, nothing else." And then he persisted. He said
3 again. "What else did you say to the guard?" Because it seems that the
4 guard told him that I had told the guard that I was going to escape, to go
5 off on my own if he didn't let me go. And I said, "Well, I said to the
6 guard that if he didn't allow me to go home, I would go home anyway." He
7 told me then to get into the car, to get into the car, and that's what I
8 did.
9 Q. And did he drive you somewhere in the car?
10 A. I got into the car and he went up to the guard. And when he
11 returned, he got into the car and drove me off along the road leading to
12 Kostajnica.
13 Q. And did there come a time when you got out of the car?
14 A. I did not get out of the car. About a kilometre after the fire
15 station, he turned the car around. He went back by the house, and then he
16 went towards my house. He brought me to my house. It was night-time. He
17 stopped the car, and he said the following to me: "Don't you dare stay at
18 home overnight; and secondly, don't you dare ever tell anyone that you
19 were with me if you get caught."
20 Q. Did you stay at your home that night?
21 A. No. No.
22 Q. Where did you go? Without telling us the name of the person who
23 you went to, just give us some general idea about where you went.
24 A. I went into the hills. That's what we call it: The hills.
25 Because my house is low down by the river. So I went into the hills. I
Page 11935
1 didn't take the road. I went through the woods. And I reached a house.
2 I reached the house of a person who was on very good terms with me, still
3 is, as a matter of fact, this person is still alive. So since the lights
4 were on in front of his house, I stopped there. And there was a cornfield
5 right by the house, so I got out of the cornfield and I came to the fence.
6 JUDGE MAY: With respect, we don't need too much detail of this.
7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MAY: Let's try and get the matter fairly quickly, get to
9 the nub of this matter.
10 MR. GROOME:
11 Q. Did there come a time that you tried escape and you were arrested
12 by the local police? Yes or no.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And were you held at the police station, where you were beaten and
15 interrogated?
16 A. Yes, but they didn't beat me.
17 Q. What happened to you?
18 A. Nothing. They interrogated me. I was there for two days and two
19 nights, in a room. Main accusation was: Why did I escape from the fire
20 station building, that I had some weapons at home, that I was concealing
21 weapons, and there was another major accusation: Why I did not accept the
22 SDS, that party.
23 Q. And did there come a time when you left the area of Hrvatska
24 Dubica?
25 A. Yes.
Page 11936
1 Q. Now, out of the original 53 people, you've described six people as
2 having left while you were present in the fire station; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you learn later that three other people were allowed to
5 leave the fire station during the -- after you left the fire station?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now --
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. I want to draw your attention to March and April of 1997. Were
10 you present during the exhumation of a number of bodies in Bacin?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did that exhumation include some of the people who you were in the
13 fire station with on the 20th of October?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Sir, did you make a list for the Office of the Prosecutor of the
16 people who were in the fire station who did not leave, were not part of
17 the six or the three people that left, but the remaining -- the people
18 that remained in the fire station? Did you create such a list?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that the following exhibit be
21 marked and shown to the witness. There's only one exhibit with this
22 witness, so there's no binder.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be marked Prosecutor's
24 Exhibit 344, under seal, confidential.
25 MR. GROOME:
Page 11937
1 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 344. It's a
2 three-page document. Is that the list that you drafted of the people who
3 remained in the fire station?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you give us some idea of the ethnic make-up of the 43 people
6 on your list who remained in the fire station?
7 A. Serbs -- two Serbs, and the rest, Croats.
8 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to what happened to the 43
9 people on this list, some of which were exhumed from Bacin several years
10 later?
11 A. When I managed to get out of the building on Sunday evening, they
12 remained behind. However, early in the morning they were loaded onto a
13 bus and they took them towards Kostajnica, taking the road. Four or five
14 kilometres away from Dubica, in Bacin, they got them off the bus by the
15 river and they killed all of them. All 43 were exhumed.
16 Q. Sir, did you personally witness this or is this information you
17 learned from other people?
18 A. I did not see it personally because I was on the run; I was in the
19 hills. But across the river, in Bosnia, there is a village too, and that
20 village is perhaps up to a kilometre away from the place where they were
21 executed. People from that village said, and still say until the present
22 day, that they heard gunfire and moaning.
23 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions for this witness.
24 Thank you, sir.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I just wanted to clarify the
Page 11938
1 circumstances in which the witness went on the truck.
2 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Exactly why did he go on the truck? Did he go
4 voluntarily or was he coerced, was he forced?
5 MR. GROOME:
6 Q. Sir, you testified earlier that you had offered to walk to the
7 fire station. Did you feel that you were free to walk to the fire station
8 if you insisted?
9 A. I don't think so.
10 Q. And can you tell us what you observed or what was said to you that
11 led you to the conclusion that you were not free, that you had to travel
12 with these two men in the truck?
13 A. They said that we were going to a meeting, that we should not go
14 on foot, and we should make sure that everyone should come, all who had
15 stayed behind, and that this was an important meeting. So I boarded the
16 truck. I said, "All right."
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can the witness say why, as a person of Serb
18 ethnicity, he was treated in that way?
19 MR. GROOME:
20 Q. Sir, you've heard Judge Robinson's question. Do you have any idea
21 why you, as a Serb, were treated and detained with the group of people
22 that were predominantly Croat?
23 A. The main reason is my refusal, towards the end of June and
24 beginning of July, to be president of the SDS party. In my opinion,
25 that's the main reason. They were distributing weapons too. I could not
Page 11939
1 get weapons because they were suspicious of me.
2 Secondly, even before that, and then I objected to some kind of
3 behaviour that was wrong, and what was being done was wrong. However,
4 some people didn't like that, especially the leaders, and that's how they
5 behaved to me.
6 Q. Can you describe more specifically what behaviour you observed
7 that you objected to.
8 A. Well, against looting, against persecuting people. They did some
9 things arbitrarily, I mean this police of the SAO Krajina, the locals, the
10 way they call themselves, the way they introduce themselves. The people
11 didn't really want to move about at that time. Throughout the summer,
12 everybody was frightened.
13 Q. The particular -- sorry, Your Honour?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does he know the other Serbs? Did he know the
15 other Serbs who were brought to the fire station?
16 MR. GROOME:
17 Q. Sir, do you know the other Serbs that were in the fire station
18 with you?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And would he be able to say why they were brought
20 there?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. And Judge Robinson is asking: Do you know why some of these other
24 Serbs were selected and their names were on this list and they were
25 detained in the fire station?
Page 11940
1 A. I can't really say. They collected everyone. I can just say one
2 thing, though: One person who never got dressed, or rather, did not have
3 a uniform, that is a person who took over when I refused to be leader of
4 the SDS. Then this younger person was appointed, and that is what he was.
5 And then, when I succeeded, after this entire procedure, to escape to
6 Bosanska Dubica, he saw me there, by a building called Sumarija. I was
7 standing there, he saw me, and he walked up to me, and he talked to me.
8 He said to me, inter alia, that he had given orders to have my name
9 deleted from the list. And I said, "Why only me? Why was this list made
10 at all?" So I came to the conclusion that he had known that the list had
11 been prepared, and all people who were on this list were taken to the fire
12 brigade building.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, I'd like to ask some questions about the
14 ten people who were released other than yourself. Were they all Serbs, or
15 Croats included?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both Croats and Muslims and Serbs.
17 JUDGE KWON: Are you in the position to tell us as to the reason
18 why they were released?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say. Somebody came to pick
20 them up. Who it was, I don't know. And it wasn't all at once; it
21 happened during the course of the day. I can give an example, an example
22 that I saw.
23 A person came, a Serb who was married to a Croat woman. His wife
24 had a brother. He had a bit of a hump. He was a cleaner, a street
25 cleaner, in Bosanska Dubica. He took that wife's brother out. He's alive
Page 11941
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Page 11942
1 until the present day. And so on and so forth. A young man also came and
2 took out a waitress. She was a waitress in a restaurant. I saw that too.
3 I didn't see the rest.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 MR. GROOME:
6 Q. Sir, on Prosecution Exhibit 344, the list of the 43 people that
7 were ultimately killed, how many names on that list, or how many people on
8 that list were something other than Croat? And please feel free to look
9 at the exhibit in front of you.
10 JUDGE KWON: If my memory is correct, he said there were two Serbs
11 among 43 people.
12 Is it correct?
13 MR. GROOME:
14 Q. If you speak the answer.
15 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Here it is. Two.
16 MR. GROOME: Thank you. I have nothing further.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE MAY: Cross-examination. I'm sorry.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE MAY: Cross-examination on Monday morning. We'll not start
21 now.
22 Mr. Milosevic, you'll have an hour to cross-examine, the same as
23 you had for the other crime-base witnesses in the other part of the trial,
24 and slightly more than the Prosecution had. But that's on Monday morning.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --
Page 11943
1 JUDGE MAY: What is it, Mr. Milosevic?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I am going to
3 cross-examine this witness too, but doesn't it seem quite absurd to you to
4 have such witnesses brought here to testify in connection with the
5 indictment brought against me? What do I have to do with this, and what
6 does Serbia have to do with all the events that this witness described
7 here? You could have brought anybody from the street --
8 JUDGE MAY: We'll hear you in argument in due course, but there's
9 no need to be offensive about the witness at all. If you agree with the
10 statement and you don't want the witness to be called, you can always do
11 so. You can always simply agree that the statement be part of the
12 evidence, and that will save a great deal of time for everybody. However,
13 if you wish to cross-examine, then of course in certain circumstances you
14 may do so. There is, as you know, a rule which allows us to admit a
15 statement without cross-examination. But there's no call to be offensive
16 about the witness.
17 Witness C-1141, as you're called, would you be back, please, on
18 Monday morning. I think the time is half past 9.00. I'm told it is. So
19 would you be back then. Could you remember, during this adjournment, not
20 to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does
21 include the members of the Prosecution team.
22 No, Mr. Milosevic. We're going to adjourn now. Monday morning.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.37 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Monday,, the 21st day of
25 October 2002, at 9.30 a.m.