Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12588

1 Thursday, 31 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, before we begin today, there is a matter

7 which I want to deal with now, because it is becoming urgent. I

8 understand that Witness C-036, it's proposed, should be the witness after

9 next.

10 MR. GROOME: That is correct, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MAY: And that the next witness is comparatively short.

12 MR. GROOME: That is also correct, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MAY: We have had the opportunity to consider the

14 application under Rule 92 bis, and the conclusion that we've come to is

15 that this is not strictly a matter of record or background, that the

16 evidence which the witness gives deals with some matters which are very

17 much part of the story in this case, and therefore it is better that all

18 matters be dealt with live.

19 Now, we recognise too that there is a great deal of evidence which

20 this witness can give, and therefore there is a difficulty for all parties

21 in dealing with the amount. We would wish the Prosecution to look again

22 at some of their exhibits. As the amicus has pointed out, the relevance

23 of some of them is doubtful. It's difficult -- or it's, rather, easier

24 for the Prosecution to gauge the importance of these various documents

25 than it is for the Trial Chamber. But a question we would ask is whether

Page 12589

1 it really is necessary to produce this number, volume, of orders of the

2 SAO Krajina. Provided the documents -- some documents are produced to

3 show that it was operating as an entity, then it really must be a question

4 of doubtful relevance whether it assists to have many more documents

5 making the same point. So we would be grateful if the Prosecution would

6 consider that.

7 And we have to say that we are concerned about the length of time

8 which this witness may take, and therefore, we will have in mind the

9 operation of some sort of time limit. We don't wish to do that, but we've

10 got to look at the overall length of this case and the amount of time

11 which this witness may take which may be removed thereafter from some

12 other important witnesses.

13 So with all those matters in mind - I don't believe you're dealing

14 with this witness, but perhaps you would pass that on to whoever is - and

15 we will return in due course to any matters which require decision when

16 the witness is called.

17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I will pass on the Chamber's

18 concerns and we will adapt the presentation of the evidence accordingly.

19 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just to reinforce what the Presiding Judge has

21 said, I want to refer to a term used by Mr. Nice, "a library of

22 documents." In my view, that's not the purpose of a trial, to establish a

23 library of documents. We want evidence that is strictly relevant for the

24 purpose, and we are concerned that in seeking to establish this library,

25 we may be letting in evidence and documents that are not strictly

Page 12590

1 essential.

2 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like once again to bring up

6 the question of looking at the order of witnesses. Apart from the one you

7 mentioned just now, I haven't got any of the witnesses that you have

8 announced, and I have no idea who the forthcoming witnesses will be. I

9 just know about today's, which is 034, and I know about C-036, because

10 I've been receiving documents for him - I received some the day before

11 yesterday and in the course of these days - large piles of documents. As

12 to the other witnesses, I haven't got any information at all as to when

13 they're going to be called, and as far as I was able to understand, on

14 several occasions you concluded that I should at least be given material

15 for seven or eight witnesses in advance, for a week in advance. And once

16 again, that has not been the case in this instance.

17 JUDGE MAY: I understand the position to be this: That 036 is

18 going to take at least a week, so that matter is covered. But it's

19 obviously right that you should have notice.

20 Mr. Groome, can you let the accused and the Trial Chamber have

21 notice of the witnesses to be called after 036, please.

22 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. We'll provide that information

23 after the first break.

24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

25 Yes. Mr. Lazarevic, sorry to keep you waiting while we deal with

Page 12591

1 those matters.

2 Mr. Milosevic, you've got, I understand, an hour and three

3 quarters.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

8 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, yesterday, finally, at my insistence, you managed

9 to identify at least some people in that group, the group that you call

10 the anti-terrorist detachment, or as you refer to it as the group, the

11 dirty jobs. And you said Sinisa Martic was one of them, and his nickname

12 was Paraga. That's right, isn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Well, you see, Mr. Lazarevic, my information tells me that

15 Commander Sinisa Martic does exist, that's true, but that his nickname was

16 not Paraga, but Silt. And that that particular commander, Sinisa Martic,

17 was never in the 21st Corps at all. Now, can you comment on that?

18 A. Mr. Milosevic, Silt was the commander of the anti-terrorist unit

19 on Banija, not in Kordun. Mr. Paraga, who in 1995 was killed in Topusko,

20 was the commander of the anti-terrorist group in the 21st Corps. And I

21 attended his funeral. If I remember correctly, the name of the person

22 buried was Sinisa Martic.

23 Q. I think that you have picked up some rumours here, but Sinisa

24 Martic was not the Paraga that you were talking about. There is no doubt

25 on that score on the basis of the information and facts that people who

Page 12592

1 are acquainted with the matter have been putting forward.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the witness has just said that's not

3 right. He's told you what the answer is. Now, if you've got some other

4 evidence, you can call it in due course.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I should now like to hear your comments on this matter: Yesterday

8 you spoke about the armaments, the rifles, to Mile Bosnic, et cetera. You

9 remember that, don't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, I have received a written denial from Mile Bosnic, and I

12 would like to hear your comments to that. I'm going to hand it over to

13 you straight away. He signed it. And I should just like you to hear its

14 contents. What he says is: "Mile Bosnic, former member of the Main Board

15 of the SDS Krajina, president of the municipality of Slunj, deputy

16 minister in the government of Borislav Mikelic.

17 "Denial: I know Mr. Lazarevic from Velika Kladusa, but not as an

18 officer of KOS but as an interpreter in the Agrokomerc company of Velika

19 Kladusa and an interpreter in the Kordun Corps. It is strange that he was

20 an officer of KOS when, from the age 18 up until 1984, he was an emigre.

21 Lazarevic had --"

22 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. What does that comment mean? What are

23 you putting to the witness; that he wasn't an officer of KOS?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, you weren't here

25 yesterday. Of course he didn't work for it, because nobody in KOS knows

Page 12593

1 about anybody by the name of Slobodan Lazarevic. And he's working for

2 somebody else, that's quite obvious, but we'll get to that in due course.

3 I should like to read out --

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lazarevic, can you deal with that, for me, at

5 least? Just explain the position.

6 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, Your Honour. I have been working. The

7 denial that Mr. Milosevic just read to the Court specifically says that I

8 have been emigre from the age of 18. However, in possession of the

9 Prosecution are my military booklets, which states very clearly that at 18

10 I was serving my compulsory military service in the town of Kraljevo, from

11 1966 to 1968, which makes me 20. This gentleman states that at 18 I left

12 the country already. So this is absolute ridiculous statement.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And the letter goes on to say as follows:

17 "Lazarevic had nothing to do with me with respect to weapons by

18 the JNA and the police force because I didn't have any contacts with him

19 whatsoever, nor did I ever, even from Lazarevic, able to receive military

20 weaponry. That is a lie. No rifles, no bombs, no Skorpions, no

21 Motorolas. Never did I get any of this equipment from the man. And no

22 group in Velika Kladusa was ever established or armed. And by that score

23 I was not able to take part in arming anybody or to receive weapons from

24 anybody or to plan any operations of any kind. I left Velika Kladusa of

25 my own free will and in my apartment no weapons were found, nor did I have

Page 12594

1 any problems in Kladusa or need to arm myself and execute operations.

2 "Mr. Lazarevic probably knows that up until the second half of

3 November 1991, I was not in contact with any JNA officer because I

4 considered that their stand was neutral and that they were not helping us

5 at all. He also knows that for these same reasons I was not on good

6 terms, or rather, I was in a conflict with the gentleman from MUP, because

7 they communicated --" and it says in brackets Milos and Toso Pajic --

8 "they communicated with the MUP of Croatia, so I wasn't able to obtain

9 weapons from them either directly or via somebody else.

10 "In October and November 1991, I was the director of Radio

11 Television Petrova Gora, and therefore I had nothing to do with weapons

12 there either, or the arming of Velika Kladusa or anywhere else. From the

13 liberation of Slunj onwards --"

14 JUDGE MAY: This is supposed to be cross-examination, not the

15 reading out of statements. You can put what's in the statement, of

16 course, to the witness, but he must have a chance to answer.

17 Now, Mr. Lazarevic, dealing with what's been put so far, you see

18 what's put; that this man had nothing to do with arms, no weapons were

19 found in his apartment. Perhaps you could deal with that, first of all,

20 if you've got any comment, and then go on to deal with what's in the next

21 paragraph.

22 THE WITNESS: Certainly, Your Honour. The letter also states that

23 Mr. Bosnic had no connections with me whatsoever. Again, it's a blatant

24 lie, because Mr. Bosnic and myself were co-organisers of a cultural

25 society in Topusko in early 1991 called Savo Mrkalj. I had a membership

Page 12595

1 card with the number 9 on it, and organising committee had ten members,

2 which clearly points that Mr. Bosnic and myself have been frequently

3 together. The fact of the matter is Mr. Bosnic has received weaponry, and

4 his claim there was nothing found in his apartment when he left Velika

5 Kladusa can only mean that he took it out with him.

6 JUDGE MAY: Is there anything you want to say about any other

7 matter? That he was in conflict, he said, with the MUP, so he couldn't

8 obtain weapons from them. He was the director of the television and had

9 nothing to do with weapons there either. Is there anything you want to

10 say about that or not?

11 THE WITNESS: Very simply, he had a very good cooperation with the

12 MUP, directly with Mr. Toso Pajic. Why is Mr. Bosnic denying, I have no

13 idea.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. He goes on to state, Mr. Lazarevic:

17 "From the liberation of Slunj, on the 19th of November, 1991 --"

18 that means after the military operation -- "I became president of Slunj,

19 the mayor of Slunj, and I had nothing to do with weapons once again. The

20 events in June 1992 occurred in Jelov Klanac, where the Ustasha terrorist

21 group killed five civilians. Amongst them was a little girl, age 14. The

22 burial took place with a police and army guard present.

23 "Between Cetingrad and Sturlic, a crime took place in November

24 1991, when 11 persons were killed, all of them from the Slunj locality.

25 In May 1992, 15 people were killed from the Slunj area around Cetingrad.

Page 12596












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Page 12597

1 Having seen Lazarevic in The Hague and hearing his lies about myself and

2 others, and the people I belonged to, the question looms again that I

3 would like to ask Lazarevic: Did he flee from Kladusa because of his

4 gambling debts or because he was persecuted as a Serb? I know why he

5 fled, and this brings me to another question I would like to ask him: Did

6 he sell out his religion for a good meal --"

7 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal with all this.

8 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I --

9 JUDGE MAY: First of all -- just a moment, Mr. Lazarevic. Let's

10 just go through it.

11 THE WITNESS: Certainly.

12 JUDGE MAY: The first point that's made is that this man was the

13 president of Slunj, he said, where he had nothing to do with weapons, and

14 then he makes some allegations about what happened there. Is there

15 anything you want to say, first of all, about Slunj or this man's

16 involvement?

17 THE WITNESS: Not really. There's nothing I wish to add to that.

18 JUDGE MAY: No. Then we move on, yes, to matters again he put

19 about Slunj. Then he says that you have been telling lies about him.

20 We've dealt with that. Then he comes to a question. What this man seems

21 to allege is that you left Kladusa for -- because of gambling debts, seems

22 to be the suggestion.

23 THE WITNESS: All I have to say, Your Honour: Mr. Milosevic is

24 coming up with some absurd statement about my gambling debts which are

25 absolutely incorrect. The day I have left Velika Kladusa was for the

Page 12598

1 reason that I was in fear for my life, because I was daily observed and

2 followed by the two brothers Brajdic, a well-known Croatian emigre from

3 Sweden. I have contacted Vojnic over Motorola, picked up only with me,

4 one of the guns which was given to me with a silencer on it, that was a

5 Skorpion, and walked from my place of living to the border with RSK.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you have any gambling debts?

7 THE WITNESS: No, I have not, sir. Absolutely none.

8 JUDGE MAY: I suppose the next question is: Do you in fact

9 gamble?

10 THE WITNESS: Well, I have been known to sit down with friends and

11 have a couple of games of poker. There's nothing unusual about it.


13 THE WITNESS: But not to the extent -- but not to the extent which

14 I would have to leave the country or the area because of the gambling

15 debts.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before we continue, Mr. Milosevic is

18 reading from a letter, and I'm quoting from a portion of it. This is Mr.

19 Bosnic saying, "Questions I would like to ask Mr. Lazarevic," and it seems

20 that he's going through a series of questions. I would submit that it's

21 not for Mr. Bosnic to mail in his questions. It's for Mr. Milosevic to

22 put questions to the witness.

23 JUDGE MAY: The difficulty is we're dealing with a litigant in

24 person, and whereas that might be right for an advocate, we have to adapt

25 the cross-examination to allow for that. We take it, when these matters

Page 12599

1 are read out, that these are questions which the witness himself -- or the

2 accused, rather, himself is putting, and we allow him to do it in that

3 way. An advocate would be allowed to put a statement, but of course he

4 would have to do it in interrogatory form. This accused clearly can't do

5 that, finds it difficult.

6 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. What else have you got from that statement,

7 please, that you want to put?

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Well, there's another question in it, and it says the following:

10 For a little bit of money and a new identity, has he agreed to be a liar

11 at that so-called court? And what sum is he lying for --

12 JUDGE MAY: We don't need this man's comments about the Tribunal,

13 thank you. It may be this has been put before, and since I was ill

14 yesterday, I didn't hear it, but you should be able to deal with it.

15 It's suggested that you've, for money, really, that you've told

16 untruths, Mr. Lazarevic. Very briefly, perhaps you could deal with that.

17 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated] ... Your Honour,

18 absolutely at any given time or moment, I have been offered by the

19 Prosecution immunity, money, or any other benefits from my testifying. I

20 have done this absolutely voluntarily because I believed that the man who

21 is responsible for untold tragedies in the area of Balkans should

22 eventually reply to the accusations.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, we have heard here from the opposite side that you

Page 12600

1 have been given a new identity and a new country of residence, and so on

2 and so forth. So it's not my assertion; it's what that opposite side over

3 there stated. And I assume you know that, you're aware of that; right?

4 A. [In English] Again you're not correct, sir.

5 Q. Very well. Well, we all had occasion to hear what was said.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And Mr. May, here is the letter. I

7 would like to tender it.

8 JUDGE MAY: We've ruled on these matters before. If you want to

9 call Mr. Bosnic, you can. We're not going to exhibit letters of that

10 sort.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. This doesn't

12 present any difficulty to me.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I have another denial here, and I would like to read that out too.

15 It is a denial sent in by Borislav Mikelic, the former Prime Minister of

16 the government of Srpska Krajina and now president of the Committee

17 for Displaced Persons, a non-governmental organisation. That's what it

18 says in the heading of this letter:

19 "Since, as the Prime Minister of the government of the Republic of

20 Srpska Krajina with two other ministers in the government --" and in

21 brackets it says the Minister for the Interior and the Minister for

22 Defence -- "in the period from the 20th of April, 1994 until the 29th of

23 May, 1995, was a member of the Supreme Council for Defence of the RSK, and

24 that body was also made up by General Milan Celeketic, as commander of the

25 General Staff, Milan Martic as the president of Republic of Srpska Krajina

Page 12601

1 and also president of the Supreme Defence Council of the RSK, I consider

2 it to be my duty to deny what Mr. Lazarevic said before The Hague Tribunal

3 on the 30th of October, 2002. The first is that the Serbian army of

4 Krajina was under the direct command of the General Staff of the army of

5 Yugoslavia and General Momcilo Perisic, and the second is that the people

6 from Kordun and part of the 21st Corps of the Serbian army of Krajina was

7 unable to find themselves in an encirclement to leave that area via

8 Croatian territory in going to the SR of Yugoslavia [as interpreted].

9 Point 1 response to the assertion that throughout that period of

10 one year -- I say with full responsibility that throughout that period of

11 one year, which is the time I was Prime Minister of the government and

12 member of the Supreme Defence Council, at meetings of the Supreme Council

13 of the army of SRK we did not receive a single order nor did we receive a

14 single order or instruction from the General Staff of the army of

15 Yugoslavia or from General Momcilo Perisic either. So I say with full

16 responsibility will the army -- that the army of RSK was commanded by

17 Milan Celeketic and he had six corps of the Serbian army of Krajina under

18 his command," and he goes on to enumerate all these units.

19 I want to save time and not enumerate all the units, but I should

20 like to stress that the head of the General Staff was General Dusan

21 Loncar, and the Defence Minister Dr. Rade Tanjiga.

22 "All military decisions that were taken at that time related to

23 the defence of the RSK and questions of the material position of the

24 Serbian army were subject of discussion at the meetings of the Supreme

25 Defence Council. If some of these questions stepped out of these

Page 12602

1 frameworks, it was the arbitrariness of individual people who were in

2 command positions in the army of the RSK and the General Staff of the JNA

3 had nothing to do with it. I should also like to say in my denial that

4 Mr. Lazarevic, according to my knowledge, was just an interpreter for the

5 Kordun area in the relationship between the civilian and military

6 authorities in the RSK on the one side and on the other side members of

7 UNPROFOR and international humanitarian organisations."

8 JUDGE MAY: We'll pause there and we'll deal with those matters.

9 Mr. Lazarevic, you should have the opportunity to answer this.

10 This is a man called Mikelic who writes, or claims, apparently, that the

11 army of the RSK was commanded by Cekic, had six corps under his command,

12 there was no order from the General Staff or from Perisic, all military

13 decisions were taken relating to the defence of the RSK at meetings of the

14 Supreme Defence Council. That's the first point that's made.

15 The second one, if you would wish to deal with it, is that if

16 there were questions, it's put, out of the framework, it was due to the

17 arbitrariness of individual people.

18 So what is being put is that there was no question of control by

19 -- or involvement by the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia, that

20 this was an independent body at the RSK, but some individuals may have

21 acted outside this framework. That seems to be the point. Perhaps you

22 would like to comment on that.

23 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I will be very brief about this.

24 Undisputed fact that hundred per cent of high-ranking officers within the

25 RSK army were active officers of JNA, which later became VJ, that they

Page 12603

1 were on the payroll of the general headquarters in Belgrade, and it's also

2 irrefutable evidence that Mr. -- Colonel Bulat, who was my CO, has been

3 virtually daily on line with Belgrade, General HQ, and I have personally

4 been present in his office when he spoke directly to General Perisic.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I'm not going to spend any more time on this issue, since we dealt

7 with it yesterday. My time is restricted here. And what this Prime

8 Minister of the RSK wrote in fact confirms what I said yesterday, and in

9 fact, it denies what you said.

10 Point 2: Nobody disputed the fact that the officers of the RSK

11 used to be the officers of the JNA, just as the Croatian officers used to

12 be the officers of the JNA while the JNA still existed, and the same

13 applies to the Muslim army. Muslim officers used to be officers of the

14 JNA while the JNA still existed.

15 JUDGE MAY: We've dealt with this. We have the point that you

16 made. The other point made is that they were on the payroll. This is

17 what the witness says; they were on the payroll of the headquarters in

18 Belgrade. But let's move on from there.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Economic aid has nothing to do with

20 commanding, Mr. May, and you should know this.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Namely -- this man speaks of something else. I will skip this

23 part that deals with the encirclement of Topusko. Namely, after, on the

24 4th of August, 1995, and not on the 5th of August, 1995, as Mr. Lazarevic

25 claims, the Croatian military Operation Storm started.

Page 12604

1 "Dramatic events led to the fact that 20.000 Serbs from Kordun

2 found themselves in Topusko, together with some members of the 21st Corps

3 of the army of RSK. In the meantime, on the 4th, 5th, and 6th of August,

4 1995, a large number of Serbs from Lika, Kordun, and Banija area, together

5 with a largest part of military formations, left that area through the

6 border crossing at Dvor on the Una River, and the fate of Serbs from

7 Kordun, as well as some members of the 21st Corps, became quite dramatic,

8 because Croat armed forces, on the 6th of August, 1995, destroyed the

9 bridge on the Una River. Being unable to establish contact from Topusko

10 with anybody else -" and I'll skip over this part; he goes on to mention

11 UNPROFOR, Zagreb, and Belgrade here - "they established, through satellite

12 telephone, contact with me, as the former Prime Minister of the government

13 of RSK, the leadership of the MUP of Kordun, through Milos Pajic, via

14 mobile telephone of Djuro Skaljac, and this connection went through

15 Slovenia, established contact with me because they knew that I, as a

16 former Prime Minister and the chief of the negotiating team with Croatia,

17 had a satellite telephone which was loaned to me by Thorvald Stoltenberg.

18 "After presenting the dramatic situation to me that applied to the

19 fate of 20.000 Serbs and some members of the 21st Corps in Topusko, I very

20 quickly established contact with the UNPROFOR headquarters in Zagreb, or

21 rather, with Mr. Akashi, and asked for an urgent intervention."

22 JUDGE MAY: The witness can't deal with this.

23 Do you know anything about what's being put here, Mr. Lazarevic?

24 This is all what this man says happened; he was on the phone and this sort

25 of thing. Do you know anything about this?

Page 12605












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Page 12606

1 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of Mr. Skaljac establishing contacts

2 with Milosevic. The contacts which have been established from the office

3 of the UN headquarters in the sector commander of sector north, those I

4 have been present to. In the office, apart from me, was Mr. Skaljac, Mr.

5 Pajic, and Colonel Bulat. And I have very clearly explained who they

6 talked to and what replies we've got. The only reason that we did get

7 out, we should be eternally grateful to the UN forces, not to Mr.

8 Milosevic.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, this is a denial written by Mr. Mikelic, not

11 Milosevic. You probably confused the last names. What I just read out to

12 you is something that was written by the former Prime Minister of the RSK

13 government, whose name is Mikelic, not Milosevic.

14 THE WITNESS: [In English] [Previous translation continues]...

15 last statement there that you have talked to Mr. Skaljac on the mobile

16 phone and that you have helped with [indiscernible] and surrender of the

17 21st Corps, which is absolutely incorrect.

18 Q. What have I said? Tell me again, please, because I didn't quite

19 understand you.

20 A. [Interpretation] I will repeat in Serbian, Mr. President -- former

21 president. In this part of your presentation, you said that Mr. Skaljac

22 established contact with you directly via mobile phone.

23 Q. With me? I am reading out to you the denial written by Mikulic,

24 and when I say, "He established contact with me," I'm quoting, Mr.

25 Lazarevic, what Mr. Mikelic said. I'm reading out his letter.

Page 12607

1 JUDGE MAY: It's absolutely pointless to have this argument. Now,

2 let's move on to something else. No point arguing. We know exactly

3 what's been said.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you like to take a look at

5 this letter?

6 A. No, thank you.

7 JUDGE MAY: What is it you want the witness to answer to? If

8 there's something else in the letter you want him to answer to, you can

9 put it.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the entire discussion that we

11 had yesterday regarding what this witness said about 20.000 people being

12 encircled and so on, this whole story is depicted in a different light in

13 this letter, and I wanted to show this, because my claim is that this

14 witness lied throughout his entire evidence and his statement, and this is

15 just one example of it. We can continue --

16 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter of comment. No doubt in due course

17 we'll have to make our mind up about that. Now, move on to another topic,

18 please.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, were you ever involved in selling weapons on any

21 occasion while you were there with the 21st Corps?

22 A. Absolutely not.

23 Q. Have you -- did you sell a pistol manufactured in Czech republic

24 that used to belong to a man called Djuric and who by mistake ended up in

25 the Serbian territory around Slunj?

Page 12608

1 A. I will repeat once again: Absolutely not.

2 Q. This man claims differently. He claims that this is true, but you

3 are denying this. All right.

4 Now let us go back to another untruth, which is not difficult to

5 establish, although this is true of every sentence that was uttered here.

6 On page 19, paragraph 6, of your statement, you claim that Mladjo

7 Karan, member of the DB who was sent to Krajina from Belgrade,

8 commanded units of the military police. Please take a look at your

9 statement, page 19. You say, in the last paragraph:

10 "Mladjo Karan, member of the state security service, who had been

11 sent to Krajina from Belgrade. KOS didn't like him very much, due to

12 rivalry that existed between these two services."

13 This is what you say on page 19 about Karan, who was not liked

14 very much by the KOS, due to rivalry between these two services.

15 JUDGE KWON: Page 21 in English version.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Is that what you say in your statement, that KOS didn't like him

18 due to the rivalry between these two services?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Now, let us go back to page 12, penultimate paragraph

21 of your statement, where you claim -- and I'm again quoting what you're

22 saying, so when I'm quoting something that somebody said, this is not

23 something that I am in fact saying, this is just a quote. "In 1993 --"

24 you speak here about Petar Surla, and the next sentence in that paragraph

25 says:

Page 12609

1 "In 1993 he was replaced by Mladjo Karan, who was in charge of KOS

2 in sector north up until August of 1995."

3 So here you say that he was from the DB, and this is why he wasn't

4 well-liked by KOS, due to rivalry, and prior to that you said that he was

5 the man who was in charge of KOS. So this is another untruth,

6 Mr. Lazarevic, spread out by you. Is that right or not?

7 A. Mr. Milosevic, you are starting from an unbelievable position,

8 which is that the whole world is lying and that you are the only one

9 telling the truth. What I said is repeated throughout this statement of

10 mine. I say that Mladjo Karan was a KOS colonel in charge of security in

11 the 21st Corps. This is a small error that appeared here, where it says

12 DB. It should have been KOS, not DB. And I presume that this error was

13 beyond my ability to correct it. Somebody else was responsible for it.

14 And this is the only instance where it says that he was a member of the

15 DB. In all other instances, it says very clearly that he was a member of

16 KOS.

17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, if I may address the Court --

18 JUDGE MAY: Just one minute, please.

19 THE WITNESS: I have also --

20 JUDGE MAY: I need a copy of this.

21 Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, there's also a diagram which has been

23 presented to the Court which very clearly states the position of Colonel

24 Karan within the structure of the 21st Corps.

25 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps we could have it. 348 -- is it 348, tab 1?

Page 12610

1 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MAY: If we could quickly have that and refer to it. If it

3 could go on the projector.

4 Yes. Perhaps you would just point it out again, please,

5 Mr. Lazarevic.

6 THE WITNESS: You will see here, Your Honour, in the second

7 square, saying Colonel Mladjo Karan, from 1993 to 1995, direct line leads

8 to KOS command in Belgrade. He is nowhere on this graph connected to SDB

9 of Serbia.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, and who drew up this diagram?

12 A. I did, Mr. Milosevic.

13 Q. So you are using your own diagram, the one that you fabricated and

14 drafted, to prove something else that you have also fabricated. This is a

15 diagram that was authored by you.

16 A. I have no comments to that, Mr. Milosevic.

17 Q. I haven't either.

18 All right, Mr. Lazarevic. Since you said that this was just a

19 tiny error where it said "SDB," what I'm saying to you is that that's not

20 the case. The error is not only that it says SDB, but in the entire sense

21 of what you're saying, because you said here Mladjo Karan, member of the

22 SDB, who had been sent to Krajina from Belgrade was not liked by KOS due

23 to rivalry between these two services. So this is not a case of typo, an

24 error whether it should be DB or KOS, but you are in fact speaking of a

25 rivalry that existed between these two services and the reasons why Karan

Page 12611

1 was not liked by KOS. So this is quite clear. Perhaps it's not clear to

2 you, because this is not in fact your statement.

3 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I'm absolutely certain that this is the

4 case of a very simple typing mistake. If you replace the SDB with KOS,

5 then it would be absolutely clear what I have stated before, that there

6 were two strains within KOS, one dealing with internal security, which was

7 Mr. Karan, Colonel Karan, and the other strain by external security of the

8 country. And this is where these two services within the same

9 organisation had a little antagonism. So if this typing mistake is

10 corrected to read "KOS," the statement is absolutely accurate.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. May I continue? Since this does not deserve any further

13 explanation.

14 On page 20, paragraph 2, you said that Ajdinovic fell out of

15 favour at the end of 1994, early 1995, when he was arrested by the DB

16 because he had taken an expensive reconnaissance equipment out of a drone

17 that had crashed.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us: Where was the drone, where did it crash?

20 A. Near Glina.

21 Q. How did it crash?

22 A. I really don't know. I wasn't present.

23 Q. Who shot it down?

24 A. I believe it was our side.

25 Q. You say -- the information that I have indicates that Ajdinovic

Page 12612

1 not only was never arrested, he was even never detained, and that this

2 high-priced surveillance equipment remained intact and could be sold

3 because it was shot down by a rocket and fell from a great height. So how

4 can you say something that is so entirely ridiculous? Is that what you're

5 claiming, that despite this crash, this equipment remained intact? Is

6 that what you're claiming?

7 A. Could you tell me what is your question again.

8 Q. Apparently this drone must have been shot by some kind of

9 artillery weapon. It must have been a missile, a rocket, or something of

10 that nature. And after that, the drone crashed from great heights and the

11 surveillance equipment remained undamaged and somebody has actually able

12 to sell it.

13 A. I'm claiming that in fact this drone was shot down, and this can

14 be confirmed by UN documentation.

15 Q. So what if it was shot down?

16 A. The talks that were led between the 21st Corps and other sides

17 indicate that Colonel Ajdinovic was in fact arrested. I was never present

18 there on the ground.

19 Q. So how come do you know about this?

20 A. Because Colonel Bulat and other officers told me about this.

21 Q. Every time I ask you how come you know of this, you reply that you

22 had heard this from somebody.

23 Now, let us turn to another very odd thing that you described.

24 You talk about the exhuming of corpses in order to be exchanged with the

25 Muslims. Is it true that for those purposes you exhumed 99 bodies and you

Page 12613

1 -- you exhumed 90 bodies and you lacked ten bodies in order to carry out

2 the exchange?

3 A. It's not true that I exhumed all of these bodies.

4 Q. Can you please tell me from which location these 90 bodies were

5 exhumed.

6 A. From the territory of the entire RSK.

7 Q. So from the territory of the entire RSK? Now, tell me, please:

8 Whose bodies were these? Were these bodies of Muslims?

9 A. These bodies were those of members of the corps, 5th Corps, that

10 were killed in combat.

11 Q. Now, tell me, please: How did Muslim bodies appear in the

12 territory of RSK?

13 A. For the simple reason because the Muslim army was engaged in

14 combat in the territory of RSK. The RSK army fought the Bosnian forces in

15 that territory.

16 Q. So you are in fact referring to army of Fikret Abdic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then you say that the army of RSK in fact took Muslim bodies

19 to bury them in its territory?

20 A. I'm not saying that anybody went about burying these bodies. I'm

21 just saying that they were delivered in order to be exchanged. It was

22 quite normal for armies to do that, to collect these bodies of enemy's

23 army in order to exchange them for their own bodies.

24 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, I just asked you where were these bodies collected,

25 and you said that that was on the territory of the RSK. The Muslims could

Page 12614












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12615

1 not have been killed in the territory of RSK, because they were never

2 engaged in combat there.

3 A. Mr. Milosevic, these bodies were given to me on the territory of

4 the RSK.

5 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, these bodies were never in fact handed over to you,

6 but we will get to that later.

7 And now let me ask you this: Since you were in charge of the

8 exchange, I presume that you have the names of people whose bodies, as you

9 say, you exchanged.

10 A. Of course I don't have those names, Mr. Milosevic. Most of these

11 bodies were not identified at all.

12 Q. So you don't have the names.

13 Now, please tell me: Since you claim that you were ten bodies

14 short, and then Djuro Skaljac told you to go by the river near Vojnic and

15 to exhume another four bodies there; is that right?

16 A. Djuro Skaljac took me personally to the location where four bodies

17 were buried.

18 Q. Where was that?

19 A. It was near some small river. I can only tell you that it was

20 about one to one and a half kilometres from Vojnic, in the direction of

21 Petrova Gora.

22 Q. And that's also on the territory of RSK?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE MAY: I have to remind you both to slow down for the

25 interpreters.

Page 12616

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will bear this in mind, Mr. May.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. But you're saying that these people were killed by the policemen

4 of Krajina. And who were these people whose bodies you dug out?

5 A. The only thing I said in my statement were that four persons, four

6 bodies, were dug out, that their arms were tied with a wire, and it was

7 apparently a case of execution and not a case of somebody who got killed

8 in combat.

9 Q. You don't know anything about the identity of these people that

10 you're referring to now.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Then on page 21, in paragraph 1, you say that you were

13 given several bodies by Captain Sarac in Velika Kladusa, and you got to

14 know this man through Arkan's colonel, Pejovic, nicknamed Peja; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Let me just find the bit that speaks of this. Colonel Pejovic,

18 Peja, who sent you there, and then later on, on page 22, you mention him

19 again, with a comment that he always treated you fairly, this man Pejovic,

20 Peja. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That's on page 22, paragraph 2, or perhaps paragraph 3, depending

23 on how you count this. You say that he always treated you fairly, this

24 man Pejovic, Peja, who helped you solve this problem.

25 A. You forgot to mention one piece of information, which is that

Page 12617

1 Colonel Karan sent me to him.

2 Q. Well, no. I'm now referring to this person Pejovic, who you say

3 always treated you fairly. This is what I'm reading out of your

4 statement.

5 A. Yes, Colonel Pejovic always treated me fairly.

6 Q. You even describe him being blond, around 40 years of age, treated

7 me correctly. Is that what you said?

8 A. Yes, that's what I said.

9 Q. That's what you said; right? Okay, then. Do you know what this

10 Peja was called?

11 A. He was called Peja.

12 Q. He had another nickname. Do you know it?

13 A. No, I don't know it. I know him as Colonel Pejovic, known as

14 Peja.

15 Q. Okay. Colonel Pejovic, known as Peja. That is not disputable.

16 That has been confirmed. Do you know that his comrades called him Peja

17 Ciganin, or Peja the Gypsy?

18 A. I doubt very much that people from his team would call him Peja

19 the Gypsy.

20 Q. Do you know why they called him that?

21 A. Is this relevant?

22 Q. Very relevant and that's why --

23 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... ask and we'll see.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Do you know, since you claim here, as you wrote: Blond, about 40

Page 12618

1 years of age, and so on and so forth. He was called that because he had

2 jet-black hair and dark skin, and he was not blond at all, and you never

3 saw him at all, and you just confirmed that that's the way you had

4 described him, that he was in fact dark-skinned and dark-haired and that's

5 why he had this nickname among his friends: Peja the Gypsy. So completely

6 the opposite. Somebody sold you a story that you used here, whereas you

7 never saw the man at all.

8 JUDGE MAY: I'm not following the question at all. What is the --

9 start again, Mr. Milosevic. And just to correct the transcript, 5 lines

10 up, what I actually said was: Let him ask and we'll see, and that was in

11 answer to a comment by the witness: Is this relevant?

12 Fine, Mr. Milosevic, what are you putting to the witness? It's

13 quite impossible to follow. And how is he going to assist us about this,

14 decide this case?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, he is describing Pejovic --

16 the witness is describing Pejovic, also known as Peja, as a fair-haired,

17 blond person, whereas everyone who knew the man knows well that he had

18 dark skin and jet-black hair.

19 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let us stop there.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Therefore --

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We get the point. We get the point.

22 Colonel Pejovic, known as Peja. You have misdescribed him, it's

23 said. Mr. Lazarevic, perhaps you can deal with that.

24 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, the man who introduced himself to me,

25 the first time that I met him as Colonel Pejovic, Peja, or called aka

Page 12619

1 Peja, all of his officers, including Mr. Pejovic, had their hair cut very,

2 very short. They carried a beret on their heads. My impression was that

3 the man was blond. I would like to point out that I have been to Pauk on

4 various occasions. I have met Colonel Pejovic at least three times, and

5 always considered him to be a perfect gentleman. I have no idea why would

6 anybody claim today that I have not met him.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. I believe the reason is obvious, Mr. Lazarevic. The reason is

9 that your description is completely opposite to his real appearance. Is

10 it true, Mr. Lazarevic, that other people you mention as having been in

11 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, you only mention proving that by their

12 presence on the public parade on the occasion of St. Vitus Day, nothing

13 else?

14 A. Would you please be so kind as to explain your question,

15 Mr. Milosevic.

16 Q. My question is very simple. I believe that you are speculating

17 and misrepresenting facts. You have talked here about a number of people

18 and shown photographs of people who, as you claim, were present on Petrova

19 Gora, and the photographs show them on the parade in Slunj on the occasion

20 of St. Vitus Day, which you also attended as an interpreter. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did we establish that it was a public parade, broadcast on

24 television?

25 A. You just asked me a direct question whether I was an interpreter

Page 12620

1 there. I said no; I was a liaison officer.

2 Q. All right. Liaison officer, let it be.

3 A. No. Let's not let it be.

4 Q. Okay, Mr. Lazarevic. Is it disputable that the parade was public?

5 A. No, it isn't.

6 Q. Is it disputable that it was broadcast on television?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Is it disputable that it was on the occasion of St. Vitus Day?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is it disputable that guests were invited and that on the occasion

11 of the holiday, guests are usually invited?

12 A. I've already told you that, but not all of them were simply

13 guests.

14 Q. Is it disputable that guests were there from Serbia, from

15 Republika Srpska, from the autonomous province of Western Bosnia, namely,

16 Bosnians from the army of Fikret Abdic, plus people from the Republic of

17 Serbian Krajina and officers of the United Nations force, also from

18 various countries? Is that disputable?

19 A. No, that's not disputable either.

20 Q. So concerning Petrova Gora and who attended and all the things you

21 did there, you produced evidence from a parade in Slunj which was public

22 and attended by guests all the over the place; from Western Bosnia, from

23 Serbian Krajina, from Republika Srpska, and from the United Nations; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Mr. Milosevic, my statement regarding Colonel Pejovic refers to

Page 12621

1 the command of Pauk in Bosnia. I never said for a moment that I met him

2 at Petrova Gora. I said I met him in Pauk and that this command was

3 partially represented at the parade. But let us go back for a moment to

4 the exchange of those unfortunate hapless 100 people who had been killed

5 in combat or executed, let's not go into those details now.

6 The size of that exchange was such that it could not have been

7 carried out without the participation of commands from both sides, the 5th

8 Corps, namely, of the Bosnian army, and the 21st Corps of Kordun, and the

9 2nd Corps of Serbian Krajina, and a corps from Banija. It was equally

10 impossible to carry it out without the presence of the United Nations

11 representatives, who provided us with body bags. There are records,

12 Mr. Milosevic, which will unequivocally prove --

13 Q. Do you have them?

14 A. I don't. I'm speaking from memory.

15 Q. Then tell me from memory. If you took over those bodies, I

16 suppose they were Serbian bodies, the 99 bodies we talked about.

17 A. That we took over there.

18 Q. Yes, that you took over from the 5th Corps.

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Do you remember or did you note down at least one Serbian family

21 to whom you returned a family member of theirs, a soldier?

22 A. Mr. Milosevic, all the corpses were automatically sent on to

23 Bosnia for autopsy in Banja Luka, all the 99 bodies.

24 Q. So you don't know of a single name of a person who was exchanged

25 then. Not a single one was identified or could have been identified. You

Page 12622

1 don't know a single family that was anxious and interested to find out

2 about these fallen fighters?

3 A. As far as I know, the committee for exchange did not talk to

4 families. They conducted discussions at level of commands and with the

5 United Nations about how to ensure the fastest possible expedient exchange

6 on a one-to-one basis.

7 Q. Do you know that something like that never happened, that no one

8 in the area which you refer to ever carried out such an exchange of

9 corpses? I'm not saying that there were no exchanges of bodies during the

10 war, but this exchange that you're talking about never happened in this

11 area. Nobody knows about it.

12 A. The parents of the people who were killed know.

13 Q. You just made this up, Mr. Lazarevic, didn't you?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. Do you claim, then, that you were present at the headquarters in

16 Petrova Gora?

17 A. I claim that I was in the headquarters in Pauk, near Velika

18 Kladusa, if that's the question you're asking.

19 Q. No. No, I'm not asking any particular questions. I'm just

20 reading out your statement. You say: "I went three times to the complex

21 in Petrova Gora," and so on and so forth. You mention Peja, saying that

22 he was blond, whereas I say that he was black-haired. I'm saying that you

23 -- I'm putting it to you that you never were in the complex at Petrova

24 Gora.

25 A. I went there. You forget that it was the headquarters of the 21st

Page 12623












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12624

1 Corps before the arrival of the units from Serbia.

2 Q. As you know well, you claimed that a totally different place was

3 the headquarters, and I refuted that, putting it to you that the command

4 was in Petrova Gora, not in the place you mentioned. And now the tables

5 have turned and you are claiming it was in Petrova Gora and I'm saying it

6 was somewhere else. Shall we go on?

7 A. No, we will not go on. I will explain to the Court why I am

8 saying what I have said.

9 THE WITNESS: [In English] [Previous translation continues]... of

10 the 21st Corps, Your Honour. Originally, the 21st Corps was deployed.

11 The command was placed at the top of the hill above the hotel in Topusko

12 in vicinity of the UN compound. By the end of 1992, they have pulled out

13 the command in Petrova Gora, military installation at the top of Petrova

14 Gora. After the arrival of the special police from Serbia, this complex

15 was given to them, and 21st Corps has moved again its command in vicinity

16 of Vojnic. In one of the complexes that used to belong to Minister

17 Spegelj, if I remember correctly.

18 JUDGE MAY: Let me see if I follow that. It may be important.

19 Originally the command was in Topusko. Now, was there a stage where the

20 command was at Petrova Gora, or did it go from Topusko to Vojnic?

21 THE WITNESS: The only command that apparently was prior to the

22 formation of the 21st Corps would have been a command of the JNA forces,

23 the 8th Operational Group.

24 JUDGE MAY: No, but, Mr. Lazarevic, I'm afraid I haven't followed

25 this. You said originally the 21st Corps was deployed. This is according

Page 12625

1 to the transcript. The command was placed at the top of the hill above

2 the hotel in Topusko. So that's the first command headquarters. Now,

3 after that, was the command moved to Vojnic? This is the 21st Corps.

4 Have I understood that right, or was there an intermediary period when it

5 was in Petrova Gora?

6 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, between Vojnic and Topusko, 21st Corps

7 was placed in the military installation in Petrova Gora.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. We discussed this

10 yesterday. I don't want to waste any more time on this.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. As you know, Mr. Lazarevic, I explained to you yesterday, when you

13 said that you were taken to the command of that Operative Group for the

14 first time and explained that it was in a different location, I told you

15 it was not correct either, because the command was in Petrova Gora, and we

16 were talking about 1994 and 1995.

17 Now, on page 24, you're talking about the kidnapping of French

18 journalist, saying that you discovered that they had been taken by the

19 special police --

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter hasn't caught the rest.

21 Something is wrong with the microphones.

22 A. That's not correct. I didn't say that.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Can we try again? Can we try again?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What shall we try again? What is

Page 12626

1 it? What's the matter?

2 JUDGE MAY: Try again. Ask your question again. Page 24, what

3 was the question? The interpreters couldn't get it.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. I was talking about the spot where you refer to the kidnapping of

6 journalists. Here is what it says. It's page 24 of your statement:

7 "These two journalists were attempting to cross over from

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina into the Republic of Serbian Krajina. The crossing was

9 manned by special police from Serbia, namely, Stamatovic's men. Members

10 of this special police arrested them when they attempted to cross over.

11 These two journalists had permits from the Ministry of Information from

12 the Republic of Serbian Krajina in Knin, allowing them to move around the

13 Republic of Serbian Krajina. They stayed in sector north for a few days

14 and then crossed over into B and H. Once they crossed over, they

15 disappeared. Someone in Zagreb inquired about their whereabouts.

16 Apparently the journalists had not contacted whomever they were supposed

17 to contact, and so on. The Ministry of Information called me in Topusko,

18 asking about the journalists' whereabouts. I knew that they had crossed

19 over into Bosnia-Herzegovina but I didn't know what happened to them

20 thereafter. We were suspected of having done something to them, which was

21 not the case, so I started making inquiries in order to clear my name and

22 the RSK involvement."

23 And here comes the punch line:

24 "I discovered that they had been picked up by the Serbian special

25 police on charges of spying."

Page 12627

1 I asked you a question a moment ago. You said you had discovered

2 they had been picked up by the Serbian police on charges of spying and you

3 are saying that it was not you who discovered it.

4 A. "Discovered," as you put it in your first question, seems to infer

5 that I conducted my own investigation. The fact is that the commander in

6 Topusko, the commander of UNPROFOR, had a very detailed description of

7 these people. They described these people upon return to Zagreb, the

8 people who had taken them. They gave a detailed description of the

9 insignia, the sleeve patch.

10 Q. When you're talking about the kidnapping of French journalists,

11 you say that you discovered that they had been picked up by the Serbian

12 special police.

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. And you just now said that it was not you who discovered it.

15 A. No. I'm just explaining how it came about. You seem to be

16 implying that everybody was counting on me to find out the truth.

17 Q. I don't know who is counting on you, including today. I just

18 quoted you a sentence which says:

19 "I discovered that they had been picked up by the Serbian special

20 police on charges of spying."

21 That's what it says in your statement. So in conclusion, it is

22 not difficult to conclude that you claim you discovered it because that's

23 what you say.

24 A. Yes, I discovered it.

25 Q. Well, that's at least what you said yourself. What you say is

Page 12628

1 correct, then.

2 A. Yes, correct, Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's request: Could the speakers be

4 asked to slow down.

5 JUDGE MAY: You're being asked both to slow down, please.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You say in the next paragraph:

8 "After they were released and got back to Zagreb, they sent their

9 complaints, statements, to the RSK military police and UN HQ sector north.

10 That is how I learned of their arrest."

11 That's what it says. I have no doubt that it is precisely the way

12 in which you found out about their arrest, but don't you see the inherent

13 contradiction in the next sentence? You say that:

14 "Based on their complaints filed upon their return to Zagreb, you

15 learnt of their arrest. And in the sentence before that, you say that you

16 had discovered they had been picked up by the Serbian special police.

17 A. The sequence in which this information is presented here is not

18 necessarily correct.

19 THE WITNESS: Give a bit of a break to the interpreters as well.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Oh, they have enough interpreters,

21 even when you're speaking Serbian. Their English is much better than

22 yours.

23 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I have made very clear that the whole

24 affair, when I was made -- when I have been informed about it, that is

25 when I have started carrying some sort of investigation into what

Page 12629

1 happened. The sector commander gave me a photocopy of the statements of

2 the both French journalists, in which they have described, very clearly,

3 the uniform and the shoulder flashes of the people that arrested them.

4 Therefore, when I said that I discovered -- that I have discovered who

5 committed this, it was based on a number of factors and evidence given to

6 me. Now, it is quite possible that my statement here moved this way or

7 that way, so it appears that one thing was said before, followed by

8 something else. One sentence being placed on the top of the page or below

9 the page by -- but I can repeat from word to word how this thing happened.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. All right. This is not the first time that an error is made in

12 drafting the statements. We've heard this a number of times yesterday and

13 earlier today. But let us move on to the part of your testimony related

14 to those international conferences.

15 You said you are able to produce a diplomatic passport. Will you

16 be so kind as to do that, please.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, a number of Mr. Lazarevic's passports

18 were introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 348, tab 7. I'd ask that that be

19 shown to Mr. Lazarevic so that he may identify whether or not the

20 diplomatic passport is among those documents.

21 JUDGE MAY: It may be that what the accused was after was the

22 originals. These are photocopies. Is that all you have?

23 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. I just want to see the

25 photocopy. I want to see this diplomatic passport. Where is the xerox

Page 12630

1 copy? If you can just put it on the ELMO. I just want to see it.

2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it's a several-page exhibit. I'd ask

3 that the witness be able to look through the exhibit and preselect the

4 page, if it's in there, that indicates it's a diplomatic passport.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Just let me see the

6 front page or something.

7 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness do that. You can ask your questions

8 in due course, Mr. Milosevic.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I have that, but it's not a

10 diplomatic passport at all.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You are not telling the truth again. Where does it say here

13 diplomatic passport?

14 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... answer the

15 question first before we go on. Yes.

16 Now, Mr. Lazarevic, just indicate to us what that document is,

17 please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is obvious from the document

19 itself, it says "passeport de service" in French. [In English] [Previous

20 translation continues]... travelling. My term being used as a diplomatic

21 passport, actually, at the back of the passport, it does give me certain

22 rights and privileges, not necessarily as an ambassador, nevertheless as

23 an official passport of service of Social Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Lazarevic --

Page 12631

1 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues]... Your Honour, and

2 clearly states that my place of birth was falsified --

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we got that when you were giving evidence

4 earlier.

5 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. What is your question?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, a diplomatic passport and a

7 service passport are two completely different things. He claimed he had a

8 diplomatic passport.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it's no good asking me or putting

10 things to me. It's the witness you should be putting things to.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, since you read out from the front page, the cover

13 page, in French, "passeport de service," which means service passport, do

14 you know that what it says on the diplomatic passport, actually, is

15 "passeport diplomatique"; is that true, Mr. Lazarevic?

16 A. It probably is, Mr. Milosevic.

17 Q. You don't know even that much?

18 A. I never owned a diplomatic passport. I considered this a

19 diplomatic passport of sorts.

20 Q. A diplomatic passport is so designated, and it is not issued only

21 to ambassadors, but even the lowest ranking embassy and consular

22 personnel, and even the clerk which puts visas into your passport with a

23 stamp holds such a passport. Whereas the service passport is issued to

24 technical auxiliary personnel travelling abroad on official business

25 accompanying a delegation or something else, and even there, there is a

Page 12632












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12633

1 big difference. The diplomatic passport is issued by the Foreign Ministry

2 whereas the service passports are issued by the Ministry of the Interior,

3 as any other passport. Do you know that?

4 A. All I know is I held three passports I was issued with in Belgrade

5 and which enabled me to travel abroad even later, after all those events,

6 without ever being searched or stopped. In my book, it's a sort of

7 diplomatic passport.

8 Q. Even that is not true, because even a diplomatic passport is no

9 guarantee that you would not be stopped or searched if the customs officer

10 has any doubt about you.

11 The service passport was issued to you as part of the technical

12 personnel, and that's what it says here, "Slobodan Lazarevic,

13 interpreter." You got this passport because you accompanied a delegation

14 to a conference in the capacity of interpreter, which leads me to believe

15 that you are trying to deceive people here by saying that you have a

16 diplomatic passport which seems to infer that you held a position which

17 you never held.

18 JUDGE MAY: As I said, that will be for us to consider,

19 Mr. Milosevic. It says service personnel. He's described it as a

20 diplomatic passport. If that's a point of any significance, we'll

21 consider it.

22 Now, it's time for the break. Half an hour. And you've got about

23 20 minutes left.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, this false

25 introduction is always a relevant matter if a witness presents himself

Page 12634

1 otherwise than what he is.

2 JUDGE MAY: Half an hour. Half an hour, please. Mr. Lazarevic,

3 would you be back.

4 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, just tell me, please, how

8 much more time I have, according to your calculations.

9 JUDGE MAY: You've got, I think, 20 minutes.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Twenty minutes is not sufficient.

11 JUDGE MAY: Well, you've had quite a time to examine this witness.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but even in the most rigid

13 interpretation of time, as we started out with this witness at a quarter

14 to 10.00 and not half past 9.00, that would mean at least half an hour,

15 because I had one hour and 40 minutes prior to that.

16 JUDGE MAY: I will look at that, but let's get on with the

17 examination now.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Now, you were describing, when it came to the international

21 meetings that you had, encounters, how the consultations took place with

22 the official representatives of Yugoslavia and Serbia. You described how

23 you would go to a hotel, you stayed in a hotel, and then the military part

24 of the group would go to the General Staff, the civilians would go to the

25 government or, as you said it, at my cabinet or whatever, but go to the

Page 12635

1 civilian authorities anyway. I think that was your description more or

2 less; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So you personally weren't present when these negotiations were

5 taking place. All you knew was that a part of these delegations would go

6 to the civilian authorities and others would go to the military ones to

7 consult them about the forthcoming international conference.

8 A. Yes. They would inform us where they had been for their

9 briefings.

10 Q. So you knew what they told you, otherwise you didn't take part

11 yourself in these briefings; right? The briefings weren't held in your

12 presence; right?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. Fine. As we've cleared that point up, or rather, that claim that

15 you made, let us take a look at what it says on page 14, in the

16 penultimate paragraph. The last one is just one sentence, and the

17 penultimate states as follows, and I'm going to read out what you say in

18 your statement:

19 "At those briefings -- at the briefings, I would read out the

20 points on the agenda one by one. Then the representative of the Belgrade

21 government who was present would give us our instructions. We were told

22 if we could agree to a certain point or not, and if we could agree to

23 something, then to what extent we were allowed to do so," and so on and so

24 forth.

25 So what you write here is in direct contradiction with what you

Page 12636

1 were saying a moment ago, Mr. Lazarevic. Is that obvious to you or is it

2 not?

3 A. Yes, quite obvious, and I have an explanation for that.

4 Q. Well, please go ahead and explain it to us, then.

5 A. I asked the people who conducted the investigation that this be

6 changed, because I never made a statement like that.

7 Q. Oh, I see. Once again you didn't make that statement, just like

8 you didn't about the mine on the playing field of Topusko, so they wrote

9 in something that you didn't say; right?

10 A. Well, to err is human. People make mistakes.

11 Q. Yes, that seems to be quite clear. But let's move on. Let's move

12 on.

13 You also described, in detail, the meeting that you had on the

14 16th of June, in Geneva, as far as I was able to gather. Right? Is that

15 correct, Mr. Lazarevic?

16 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.

17 Q. And you described the fact that Goran Hadzic had called Zoran

18 Lilic, president of the FRY, to consult him in that office that was full,

19 all of you were present. And then somebody from the army, I assume, would

20 call up somebody in the General Staff to ask them something. I think

21 that's what you said.

22 A. That referred to the meeting in Norway, Mr. Milosevic.

23 Q. Oh, I see. Only in Norway, then. And what refers to the meeting

24 -- because the other side also took note of the fact that you described in

25 detail the meeting on the 16th of June in Geneva. What refers to that?

Page 12637

1 A. It refers to the meeting in Geneva, yes, and I was answering

2 questions to the best of my recollections. Perhaps I made a mistake and

3 Mr. Goran Hadzic was not at that first meeting, but there were minutes and

4 they stipulate who was present. But as for Goran Hadzic, I can say with

5 certainty that he was there, because I have a photograph with him and me.

6 Q. From Geneva?

7 A. No; from Norway.

8 Q. Well, I'm not talking about Norway now. I'm talking about Geneva.

9 So what were you saying about Geneva?

10 A. That the meeting was held, that it was a very short meeting; it

11 lasted two to three hours.

12 Q. And you said that no agreement was reached; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. Fine. Now, looking at my notes and the information

15 that I have, that I have received, the head of the delegation at that

16 meeting in Geneva was called Novakovic; right?

17 A. The military delegation? What did you say?

18 Q. Well, are you saying that Hadzic attended the meeting?

19 A. I can't be absolutely sure, and I've said that quite clearly

20 already. I answered questions according to the best of my recollections.

21 Mr. Kosta Novakovic, Colonel Kosta Novakovic was the head of the military

22 delegation, Mr. Milosevic, because there was a civilian delegation as

23 well.

24 Q. Well, it was a mixed delegation, in fact. As far as the civilians

25 are concerned, according to my notes here, there was Bijacin [phoen], Srba

Page 12638

1 Jarcevic and Paspalj. They attended that meeting, and the head was

2 Novakovic. Is that correct or not?

3 A. As far as I remember, yes, it is.

4 Q. And as far as my information here tells me, that meeting was held

5 under the auspices of General Belker [phoen], who was the commander of

6 UNPROFOR at that particular time. Is that correct?

7 A. As far as I remember, yes.

8 Q. Is it also correct, then, that they decided to make a demarcation

9 line, a separation line?

10 A. Yes. I think that was a topic that was discussed.

11 Q. So what you're saying is not correct, that they had reached no

12 agreement and that they were told not to reach any agreement.

13 A. What is correct is that seven days later we had another meeting,

14 because nothing was implemented on the ground. So I would say that no

15 agreement had actually been reached.

16 Q. But on the basis of these notes here, Mr. Lazarevic, it says that

17 you did not attend that meeting in Geneva.

18 A. Unfortunately, you are not right there, Mr. Milosevic.

19 Q. I personally wasn't there, so I can't say, but that's what it says

20 here. And you claim you did attend the meeting on the 16th of June in

21 Geneva; right?

22 A. Correct, Mr. Milosevic.

23 Q. You in fact attended another meeting from the 6th to the 8th of

24 July, did you not? Right?

25 A. Also in Geneva?

Page 12639

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Or in Vienna?

3 Q. But you were at that meeting, were you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who was present at that particular meeting, then?

6 A. The delegation increased in numbers after each -- at each

7 subsequent meeting. I personally did not have list of all the people who

8 were to be there, nor was I interested in that.

9 Q. All right. Well according to this note that I received, it was

10 the same delegation but it was a military delegation, not a civilian one.

11 A. As far as I remember, the delegations were always composed of the

12 political part of the delegation and the military part of the delegation.

13 Q. So you say that the notes I have here are not correct, that it was

14 a mixed delegation on that occasion as well; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And what was the topic discussed?

17 A. For some unknown reason, I keep remembering those unfortunate

18 turbines around Knin, so it is quite possible that the discussion on that

19 particular occasion were the turbines in Knin that had been sent for

20 repairs to the Rade Koncar factory.

21 Q. Well, I have here that it was a ceasefire that was discussed and a

22 demarcation line.

23 A. So that means that at that first meeting nothing was agreed upon.

24 Q. Well, this was an ongoing issue and was always discussed. Now,

25 tell me, please: Was Hadzic present at that meeting as well?

Page 12640

1 A. I don't think so, no.

2 Q. He didn't attend the first meeting either.

3 A. Most probably. Mr. Milosevic, we're talking about some things

4 that took place ten or eleven years ago, and I didn't keep notes and

5 records about all those events. The fact is that I did attend the

6 meetings, to the best of my recollections, and I can testify in that

7 regard.

8 Q. All right. I just want to note that what you just said does not

9 coincide with the facts that I have by way of information. Now, whether

10 that was so or whether that was not so -- what meeting did Galbraith

11 attend? Because I don't have any information as to Galbraith's attendance

12 anywhere.

13 A. In Norway.

14 Q. Well, I think that there was a mistake, or maybe in the transcript

15 the interpretation might have been wrong. So I'd like to remind you what

16 you say on page 14 about the event when you speak about Hadzic. As you

17 explained here, Galbraith began by saying, "Mr. President," and then he

18 said that there was a dispatcher of some kind, words to that effect. You

19 said this out live in the courtroom. I haven't got the transcript in

20 front of me, but I assume you remember what you said.

21 A. Yes, I remember that. He did say that, because it was a very

22 important statement that he made.

23 Q. Right. However, as you know, he was not a dispatcher of any kind;

24 he was in charge of a warehouse, a warehouse clerk, and that was his post,

25 his job, that he was a warehouse clerk. Do you know that?

Page 12641












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12642

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So he didn't say he was a dispatcher of any kind, and in any

3 literary or figurative sense, but what he was doing was stating the job he

4 did and his calling. Is that right?

5 A. No, it wasn't understood as such in the context, because when they

6 addressed him as "Mr. President," he said, "I am not a president, I am a

7 dispatcher."

8 Q. Are you saying that that's what Galbraith asked him about?

9 A. The ambassadors, the US ambassadors, et cetera.

10 Q. Well, let's see what it says in your statement. "The

11 international conferences that I attended were during the period when

12 Goran Hadzic was president of the RSK. Hadzic had been a warehouse --"

13 THE INTERPRETER: The word in Serbian that the accused is using is

14 "magazinar," which has been translated as "dispatcher," interpreter's

15 note. That's on page 14 of the Serbian version.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may assist the Court. The

17 English version is on page 15, paragraph 2.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right, and I'm reading what you say. "Hadzic was a warehouse

20 clerk, and he was --"

21 THE INTERPRETER: Or dispatcher, as it says in the statement,

22 interpreter's note.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. "-- before the war and was really a very raw peasant. He was

25 more interested in chasing women, in getting drunk and in making money

Page 12643

1 than in administering a government. He knew he was in over his head, and

2 on one occasion when I addressed him --" "I" is you. "On one occasion

3 when I addressed him as 'Mr. President,' he replied, 'I'm not a president,

4 I'm a dispatcher.'"

5 THE INTERPRETER: Or "magazinar" is the word in Serbian that the

6 accused is using, interpreter's note.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Therefore you are claiming something quite different here. He was

9 not addressed by the Canadian or whatever other ambassador - you mentioned

10 a few of them a moment ago - and Galbraith wasn't at that meeting at all.

11 But you yourself, you say that you addressed him and that he responded and

12 said he was a warehouse clerk, which in fact he was before the war,

13 because that was his job. That was his profession. Isn't that right, Mr.

14 Lazarevic?

15 A. It says literally, "On one occasion," and that occasion is the

16 occasion in Norway, Mr. Milosevic. So I said, "On one occasion when I

17 addressed him."

18 Q. But you say, "On one occasion when I addressed him." So you

19 addressed him and it was no ambassador who addressed him. And he said --

20 you addressed him as "President" and his reply was, "I'm not a president;

21 I'm a warehouse clerk." Now, why do you say that it was an official

22 contact between him and some ambassador when it says quite plainly here it

23 was a conversation between the two of you in a delegation in which you

24 were an interpreter?

25 A. Mr. Milosevic, I have been quite clear in giving my statement, and

Page 12644

1 I have repeated it several times, because it was a very specific one. I

2 said that that occurred in Norway, that Mr. Hadzic was sitting down at the

3 table and playing solitaire.

4 Q. I'm not asking you whether he was playing solitaire.

5 A. But that's when it happened.

6 Q. I'm not asking when it happened, what I'm asking is --

7 MR. GROOME: Mr. Milosevic is interrupting the witness and not

8 permitting him to finish his answer. I'd ask that he be allowed to.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness finish the answer.

10 Anything you want to add, Mr. Lazarevic?

11 THE WITNESS: Only one thing, Your Honour: It did happen in

12 Norway. I have never met Mr. Hadzic in a man-to-man kind of unofficial

13 situation to discuss anything with him.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. All right, Mr. Lazarevic. I'm not claiming that you met him in

17 any unofficial capacity or occasions. I'm just reading from your

18 statement, and it says quite literally, word for word, that when you

19 addressed him, he told you that he was a warehouse clerk, which in fact he

20 was.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. He's dealt with it.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So what you said that Galbraith addressed him and then the

24 Canadian ambassador and then some other ambassador, that that was his

25 response, you were in fact telling an untruth; isn't that right, Mr.

Page 12645

1 Lazarevic?

2 A. No, that is not right. That is completely untrue, Mr. Milosevic.

3 Q. Why, then, is this how you put it in your statement if what you

4 said here, the oral testimony, is the absolute truth and it is in

5 contradiction with what it says in the statement?

6 A. Well, I see no contradiction. It says on one occasion or in one

7 instance.

8 Q. All right. That instance or occasion. But you're talking about

9 the ambassador and not about yourself. So I assume there's a difference

10 as to whether he talked to the ambassador of a foreign country or with you

11 who were working as an interpreter for him at that point in time.

12 A. Well, he didn't talk to the ambassadors.

13 Q. But you said that he did.

14 A. The ambassadors addressed him through me, and Mr. Hadzic's reply

15 was to me, he didn't even look at the ambassadors.

16 Q. All right. All right. Fine. But you said that you addressed

17 him, and not the ambassadors. That's what it says here.

18 JUDGE MAY: We are wasting time. This is a trial which is going

19 to last a very long time. It will last even longer with you taking points

20 of this kind over and over again.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Then you go on to say that in Norway, and I have a list here, that

23 Hadzic, Jarcevic, Kuzet, Rakic, Novakovic, Vujinovic, Ergic, all those

24 people, the military and civilian delegation, and then from Croatia,

25 Sarinic, Ucekovic, the officers Domazet and Stipetic, and the mediators

Page 12646

1 were Vollebaek, who replaced Stoltenberg, Ahrens, who was a replacement

2 for Lord Owen, Bo Pellnas, and Jeannie Peterson. There you have it, there

3 you are, that's what it says. So I can't see any trace of this man Savo

4 Milosevic whom you seem to have included. And could you explain who this

5 man Savo Milosevic is? I do know one Savo Milosevic. He is the football

6 player on the national team who gives very good goals. I know him from

7 television, but I don't know which Savo Milosevic you're thinking about.

8 I assume that this Savo Milosevic of ours that gives such good goals was

9 not the one in question. So who is your particular Savo Milosevic? I

10 haven't got him in this piece of information.

11 A. Mr. Milosevic, you have a very good sense of humour. Whether it

12 was Savo or Miso, what his first name was, I don't know, but this man was

13 introduced as the host at both the meetings in Geneva. And you must allow

14 for the possibility that at the meeting in Norway there was a group of

15 observers who had no official capacity within that particular meeting.

16 Q. Well, you have attributed the presence -- some importance to that

17 presence, so not an observer status or even - how shall I put this? - the

18 role of a host, I think you said, but you ascribe something else to the

19 presence. And then you said they mention me, and this man Savo Milosevic

20 mentioned me, and he referred to me with the name Slobo. That's what you

21 said.

22 A. Yes, I stand by what I said.

23 Q. So just him. Out of all the other members of the delegation, this

24 was just him, him and several other million Serbs who also call me Slobo,

25 which I hope you know. I hope you're aware of that fact.

Page 12647

1 A. Well, usually it was in a very negative context when they called

2 you Slobo. I'm surprised that you brought that up.

3 Q. Well, perhaps that's your opinion, but I don't think that's what

4 those people think. And do you know that nobody referred to me as "boss"

5 or "chef," nobody from my entourage, especially nobody from the Republika

6 Srpska or RSK either. Absolutely nobody.

7 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most people in the RSK who were down

9 there referred to you as "boss," or "chef." That was your official

10 nickname in the RSK.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. All right, Mr. Lazarevic. I'm sure you know that far better than

13 I do, so let's not go into that any more.

14 Tell me this: As you claim that they were instructed, they had

15 received instructions not to accept any proposal, any agreement -- is that

16 what you said?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Well, why, then, did they invite anybody, or allegedly call up

19 people to consult them, if they had instructions that they had received

20 beforehand not to accept any proposal? Why, then, would they call up and

21 hold consultations? All they were supposed to do then was to obstruct, as

22 you said.

23 A. They called up for one reason, because usually they found

24 themselves in a situation where they had no response to some concrete

25 specific questions. They didn't know what to say, how to respond, and

Page 12648

1 that's why they called you up, your assistants, associates, Perisic,

2 Stanisic, et cetera, all the others.

3 Q. Well, tell me, who did they call up in my cabinet? Did you ever

4 learn that?

5 A. No. You had millions of associates.

6 Q. You say that there were millions of aides in my cabinet? Is that

7 what you're claiming?

8 A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

9 Q. All right. Fine. Right. This is a very interesting point that

10 you're making. And those people opposite say that I was working in an

11 empty office, without any aides at all, and you claim that I had countless

12 aides. That's a very good -- that's rich.

13 A. Well, people who shared your offices.

14 Q. Well, I assume in my cabinet there are some sort of assistants and

15 aides giving instruction, at least according to you. But let's not dwell

16 on that.

17 Tell me this: As you say that Belgrade insisted on being given an

18 agenda beforehand, isn't it logical that when an international meeting is

19 being held that an agenda is supplied beforehand and not people being

20 invited and then being faced with an agenda? I assume that agendas are

21 always regularly sent out prior to international meetings.

22 A. Yes, that is logical for the agendas to be received in advance,

23 but it's not logical that third countries require an agenda and ask for an

24 agenda.

25 Q. How do you know that anybody from Belgrade insisted upon having an

Page 12649

1 agenda in advance?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer.

3 A. Most of the officers, politicians that I encountered, because the

4 boss has to decide what we do and don't do.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I think that you -- this is something you have conjured up

7 yourself, Mr. Lazarevic. You've made it up. Because it's quite obviously

8 not true. You couldn't have heard about that from anyone.

9 JUDGE MAY: That is what he said happened, Mr. Milosevic, so no

10 point commenting on it. Now, we'll give you an extra five minutes, since

11 you asked for it. You've got five minutes more.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think that that is too

13 short.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Let's move on quickly, then. In 1995, after the Storm operation,

16 you came to Belgrade; right?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And you began working for a company called the LCI in Belgrade,

19 where the headquarters were in London, and the owner was Steve Dickson; is

20 that right?

21 A. I think that that was in November and December of 1995.

22 Q. Very well. And is it also true that the main manager of the firm

23 in Belgrade was Aleksandar Margetic?

24 A. No, that's not true.

25 Q. Is it true that that particular company sent in to the municipal

Page 12650












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12651

1 SUP, or the police in Belgrade, a criminal report, and that a warrant was

2 issued in your name?

3 A. No, that is not true.

4 Q. And afterwards, is it true that you worked in the five-star firm

5 in Ustanicka Street, with headquarters there, with Ivanka Golusin at the

6 Hotel Serbia and this particular woman was in detention because you were

7 involved in a scheme with sharing arrangements in Serbia. Is that right

8 or not?

9 A. No. With an apartment in Vojvodina, you say?

10 Q. You sold, in Vojvodina and Serbia, time-sharing schemes. In

11 Serbia but especially in Vojvodina province; isn't that correct?

12 A. No, it's not correct, Mr. Milosevic.

13 Q. All right. After this firm, did you register your own firm, which

14 was called Melbourne, with its headquarters in the Novi Belgrad district?

15 A. No, that's not correct, Mr. Milosevic.

16 Q. And is it also incorrect that these non-existent apartments in

17 Malta and Spain, you took money from Darko Djuk to the tune of 30.000

18 Deutschmarks and other 65.000 Deutschmarks, et cetera. Is that correct or

19 not?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the names.

21 THE WITNESS: If anybody knows anything about a time-share, there

22 is no possibility that one person would spend $65.000 on one week in a

23 share scheme of apartments.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Let us not go into that. I asked you about this. You said that's

Page 12652

1 not correct. And we can continue. I don't mind you saying it's not

2 correct, it's not true.

3 Is it also not true that due to all of these reasons, there was a

4 search warrant issued by the SUP of Belgrade for you due to the crimes

5 that you committed? Was there a search warrant?

6 A. No, there wasn't. You said that the first warrant was issued in

7 November of 1995. I lived in Belgrade until the year of 1999, in the same

8 place, in the same address, and are you actually implying that no --

9 people from SUP were unable to find me for four years and I went to work

10 every day in a regular fashion?

11 Q. All right, Mr. Lazarevic. We saw that there were a number of

12 examples where you claim that there were errors in your statement and you

13 don't know how they got into your statement. Is that right? Is that what

14 you said?

15 A. Could you please repeat your question.

16 Q. What I said was that when I quoted several examples in your

17 statement, you told me that you didn't know about these things and you

18 don't know how that got into your statement. That was the case with the

19 mine on the soccer field in Topusko, and other examples. You claim that

20 there were a number of things that got by accident into your statement.

21 A. Yes, there were several errors in my statement, and obviously one

22 of them was a typing error where it said that Colonel Karan was a member

23 of the DB instead of KOS. Yes, errors are there in my statement.

24 Q. But you also said that nobody ever mined the soccer field in

25 Topusko, for example.

Page 12653

1 A. Yes, that's right. I said that I never stated that. I said that

2 about Glina. I don't know how that got into my statement.

3 Q. So are you actually saying that your -- the current arrangement is

4 such that they don't even have to ask you what should be put in your

5 statement?

6 A. What kind of arrangements are you talking about?

7 Q. The arrangement you have with the opposing side.

8 A. I have no arrangements with any side.

9 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, there is something I cannot explain, and I will ask

10 you to explain it for me. Your argument is that Serbs from 21st Corps

11 killed other Serbs in order to fire up the situation.

12 A. Yes. I said that.

13 Q. I don't believe that any Serb would state something like that, and

14 that's why I want to ask you this: Do you know that people killing their

15 own people was a tactic used during the war in Bosnia by Muslims?

16 JUDGE MAY: No. That's not a relevant question.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is relevant, Mr. May, because I

18 believe that this practice of killing their own people, which was typical

19 for the Muslim side during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and similar

20 false accusations that Serbs were guilty of that too; therefore, this

21 practice and accusations of this nature indicate that all of this is

22 coming from the same kitchen, is cooked in the same kitchen. It is all

23 coming from the same source, those who incited --

24 JUDGE MAY: Who are you suggesting has been involved in this

25 conspiracy, this kitchen, as you put it? Who are you suggesting is

Page 12654

1 responsible, so we can put it to the witness?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, among others, the opposing

3 side participated in that kitchen as well. This opposing side that

4 formulates false indictments.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. And now let's turn to a specific issue. You had conversations

7 with Curtis --

8 JUDGE MAY: Your time is up. Your time is up, but we will allow

9 that question, if it's about Mr. Curtis. You can ask it.

10 But let the witness deal with this: What seems to be suggested is

11 you've given your answer about Serbs killing Serbs due to a conspiracy

12 which was going on to make allegations of that sort, involving the

13 Prosecution. Could you just briefly answer as to whether that's true or

14 not?

15 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Is this question addressed to me?

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Could you deal with it, please.

17 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, Prosecution has nothing to do with any

18 conspiracy against Milosevic. And me, as a witness, I'm trying just to

19 contribute to actual truth being established.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, you can ask one more question,

21 Mr. Milosevic.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Fine. If I'm allowed just one question, then, Mr. Lazarevic, tell

24 me: Who are you working for today? Or let me make it more precise: How

25 long have you been working for the British service for?

Page 12655

1 THE WITNESS: This is a very, very unusual question. Of course I

2 don't work for British intelligence service.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Any questions from the amicus?

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I will

5 try and remain within the time limits that I was allotted, that I have

6 been allotted so far. I will try to adhere to that. And my second point

7 is that I would ask Mr. Lazarevic to always reply to me in B/C/S so that I

8 would be able to control the flow better. Thank you.

9 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lazarevic, as amicus curiae, I was unable to

11 conduct an investigation of my own. I have no right to do that. And

12 everything I would like to put to you has to do with things that were

13 already brought up in examination-in-chief and those matters that are

14 contained in your statement. This is what I will use as a basis for my

15 questions.

16 Therefore, I would first like to ask you to tell us this: This

17 diagram that you drafted, was it drafted at the time when you gave your

18 statement in January and July of 1999, or just now, when you had your

19 interviews with the Prosecution?

20 A. Part of it was done in January and February, and then all the way

21 up to July.

22 Q. Are you talking about the diagram?

23 A. Yes. I am talking about the diagram. So part of it was done then

24 and the other part was completed now, just seven or eight days ago.

25 Q. This set of exhibits that we dealt with over the past few days

Page 12656

1 contains documents that have to do with 1993, 1994, and 1995. There is

2 not a single document there pertaining to other periods of time. What I

3 would like to know is whether you have any document that has to do with

4 that diagram and that has to do with the time period from the 1st of

5 August 1991 to June of 1992.

6 A. Nobody asked me to draw up such a diagram.

7 Q. Thank you. Did you have any written evidence, primarily, or any

8 other evidence, that could be used to establish that there was a plan for

9 conducting ethnic cleansing and other crimes in August of 1991? Did you

10 have any kind of evidence that would support this in your possession?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You said that you worked for KOS - that's a service of the JNA -

13 for exactly 30 years, from 1968 to 1998; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Trial

16 Chamber, and you as well, to take a look at page 32, paragraph 3, of the

17 English version of your statement. It's on page 29 in the Serbian

18 version.

19 Q. What I would like to ask you is as follows: During those 30

20 years, or shall we say two or three years less than that, when you

21 received money for your activities, have you ever met people from Kosovo?

22 A. Within the country, no.

23 Q. Outside of the country?

24 A. Also no.

25 Q. And have you ever met anybody from KOS?

Page 12657

1 A. Yes; Colonel Zimonja.

2 Q. What you said here is that: "In 1995 I went to Zimonja's office

3 for the first time."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That's the first sentence in that paragraph. And the second one

6 is -- the last one is: "Had something happened to him or had he

7 disappeared, I would have known no one else to contact within KOS." Does

8 that mean that during those 20 or 30 years, you had just a single contact

9 person in KOS?

10 A. Mr. Zimonja, I would meet with him or with somebody pursuant to

11 his recommendation.

12 Q. But you said here had he disappeared or had something happened to

13 him, nobody else would know that you used to work for KOS.

14 A. Not that nobody would know that I worked for KOS. It's just that

15 I wouldn't know who else to contact in KOS.

16 Q. On page 29, and in English it's on page 32, paragraph 2, it's just

17 a paragraph before the one that we just dealt with. You said that you

18 used to work -- that you worked for Zimonja until June of 1998. Is that

19 right?

20 A. No.

21 Q. No. All right. But then you said that until 1998, when I was

22 finally issued with personal documents, IDs - that that was actually done

23 in 1998.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then in parenthesis, it says, "After I got these documents, I

Page 12658

1 went to the US embassy for the first time." Why is that so?

2 A. Because I wanted to leave the country.

3 Q. For the first time? Have you ever been there before?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you. You turned over to the Prosecution a large number of

6 photographs, and in your statement, at the end of your statement, it says

7 that you turned over 90 photographs to the OTP. Is that right?

8 A. Yes. Most probably, yes. I don't know the exact number.

9 Q. I'm interested in photograph 18, and I would like the Trial

10 Chamber to take a look at the end of the statement of Mr. Lazarevic and to

11 item 18. It says here:

12 "A French captain --" you are describing the photograph -- "who

13 spoke fluent Serbian. His parents were Serbs, but he was born in France.

14 He served as the French battalion's liaison in the Bihac pocket. In this

15 photograph, I am wearing a British uniform."

16 Can you explain how come you came to wear the uniform of a British

17 officer?

18 A. Because at the time I collected uniforms, sir. I had a large

19 number of uniforms.

20 Q. And you wore a British uniform when performing your assignments?

21 A. It was not an assignment. It was a private meeting in my

22 apartment, and this is what's depicted in that photograph.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

24 Could the Prosecution please allow us to take a look at that

25 photograph when we get a chance.

Page 12659












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12660

1 Q. Now, item 52, you say the man on the right side is Goran

2 Gvozdenovic, who was in charge of 20 military police officers placed at my

3 disposal. His father, Colonel Gvozdenovic was commander -- no, no. I'm

4 sorry. I made a mistake. I skipped over. No. I'm sorry. Item 40. I

5 apologise, Your Honours.

6 It says here "Polish battalion and some Frenchmen." You're

7 describing this picture. "Several Frenchmen, Danes, Canadians, during a

8 Polish medal parade. I'm wearing a British uniform."

9 How do you explain this?

10 A. This was also a function, and I believe that --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer. The

12 interpreters didn't hear it.

13 JUDGE KWON: Just a moment. Could you repeat the answer again.

14 The interpreters didn't get it.

15 A. This was an informal function in Slunj, if that's the picture that

16 I'm thinking of. I did wear a British uniform; however, I had the

17 insignia of the VJ.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. We can verify that. But thank you anyway. And now I

20 would like to go back to something that you mentioned yesterday concerning

21 Bent Jenssen. That's page 25 of your B/C/S statement, and in English this

22 can be found on page 27, paragraph 4. You said here in the beginning that

23 you obtained from Bent Jenssen Croatian plans for the attack and he passed

24 it to you the night before. Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12661

1 Q. Who did you turn these plans over to?

2 A. To the staff of the 21st Corps; Colonel Bosanac.

3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you spoke about something that cannot be

4 found in your statement, which is that you were present when there was an

5 attempt made to have talks with people, with Mr. Milosevic's cabinet,

6 General Perisic, and so on.

7 A. Could you repeat?

8 Q. Yesterday you said that you were present on several occasions when

9 a call was put through to the cabinets of Stanisic, Perisic, and

10 Milosevic.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And you never once mentioned that in your 1999 statement.

13 A. I think that in my 1999 statement there is a very detailed

14 description of events that took place on the day of the withdrawal from

15 Krajina. I very clearly said who -- what was the topic of those

16 conversations and with whom there was a conversation.

17 Q. In the following paragraph, you said as follows: That you obtained

18 those documents the day before, and then you go on to say that immediately

19 after the attack started, a Croatian army major called Tihomir Tica,

20 Brckan, called me, and then you describe what went on there. And the last

21 two sentences go as follows:

22 " Brckan told me to drive to Turanj with my wife claiming that he

23 would ensure safe passage for us. He also told me to tell Bulat that the

24 best thing to do would be to surrender. I explained that I couldn't cross

25 over to the Croatian side due to the fact that my people would consider me

Page 12662

1 a traitor, and then Brckan told me that he would send another liaison

2 officer from Sisak and tell him about me so as to avoid any harm coming to

3 me and my wife."

4 So how is it that you had a conversation of this nature with the

5 Croatian side the day after the attack started?

6 A. It didn't take place on that day. It was very early after the

7 attack started. Mr. Brckan called me on the telephone in the UN HQ and

8 they came to inform me about this. Mr. Brckan was a liaison officer in

9 Croatian army in the operational zone of Karlovac, and this is why we had

10 very frequent contact.

11 Q. Thank you. Who defined the direction in which the convoy of

12 refugees started moving, 24.000 refugees?

13 A. It was an agreement with Croatia that was reached between

14 international organisations, north sector headquarters, ECMM,

15 international organisations. Everybody was involved in it.

16 Q. Wasn't it a product of communication between you and your wife

17 with the Croatian side?

18 A. Absolutely not.

19 Q. On page 27 in the B/C/S version; in the English version it's on

20 page 30, third paragraph:

21 "My wife proposed that we should reach an agreement with Croatians

22 so that we can go in a convoy through Croatian territory, which is what we

23 did."

24 Did you in fact do this?

25 A. Yes, we did, and I explained the reasons for it.

Page 12663

1 Q. There were 24.000 people in the convoy; is that right?

2 A. I deduced this based on various things; it doesn't have to be

3 exact.

4 Q. But you said that when you came to the border between Croatia and

5 Serbia, you were the last one to cross over and that before you, between

6 14.000 and 15.000 people crossed.

7 A. I said that --

8 Q. I'm interested in the convoy that you were in, that you escorted.

9 A. I didn't escort it. I was in the fourth or fifth vehicle, at the

10 head of the column.

11 Q. But yesterday you said that you were the last one to cross.

12 A. Yes. I was convinced that I was the last one to cross, because

13 nobody came for an hour or two after me.

14 Q. And what happened to those people that crossed?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. You cannot explain?

17 A. No, I can't. I don't know about that.

18 Q. So these people only afterwards were put in a camp. They

19 experienced some unpleasant things there. They were kept in the camp and

20 tortured, as you said.

21 A. Some of them were, yes. That's right.

22 Q. I'm interested in another topic which is quite important. In your

23 statement, you said, on page 1, that your first important assignment for

24 KOS was the one in which you planted some films on a German citizen. Is

25 that right?

Page 12664

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then you said that this was a German citizen vacationing on

3 the island of Rab, and you simply came in and placed the rolls of film

4 among his belongings.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you were not interested in what happened to him afterwards?

7 A. No, I wasn't.

8 Q. And how many assignments of this nature you received?

9 A. I don't know. I didn't keep a record.

10 Q. But give us an approximate figure.

11 A. Of similar tasks?

12 Q. Yes, similar tasks that were given to you by KOS.

13 A. I really can't give you any figure concerning the assignments I

14 performed over 30 years.

15 Q. All right. Yesterday we mentioned the brothers Brajdic on several

16 occasions, and you said that you gave up on that task of killing them.

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. But on page 8 of the English version, paragraph 4, you say that

19 you gave up on that assignment because of this: "The following day, after

20 what happened in the bar --" and we talked about that yesterday -- "that

21 same evening, the Brajdic brothers came by my house and parked their car

22 across the street by the grocery store. They stayed there, watching my

23 house from there."

24 Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12665

1 Q. And then you immediately had a desire -- or rather, you removed

2 your wife from there and then you called Vojnic and then he told you to

3 get away from there.

4 A. Yes, that happened over the course of several days. It didn't all

5 happen on one day.

6 Q. So you didn't decide on your own to give up on this assignment.

7 You simply realised that the Brajdic brothers were aware of what was about

8 to happen, and in view of that, in view of the fact that there was a risk

9 for you yourself, you put an end to this initiative.

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. You also said that you were in Agrokomerc for several years.

12 A. Yes, six or seven.

13 Q. That's right. And then only upon Abdic's return from prison you

14 were fired, because a cleaning lady saw you taking out some documents from

15 his office, and that's not true, is it?

16 A. No, that's not true.

17 Q. But in your statement, on page 5, you said -- so page 5 of the

18 English version, paragraph 2, you say that it was ironic that this was the

19 reason for your being fired when in fact you had committed many other

20 things, maybe not graver than that, but similar to that.

21 A. What I said was it was ironic that I was fired for something that

22 I in fact did not do, when there were other things that I did do but was

23 not fired for them.

24 Q. And something that you spoke about the atmosphere of fear. I will

25 just refer your attention to page 26, last -- so in the Serbian version,

Page 12666

1 it's on page 26. You speak about how terror was sown here and that many

2 things were fabricated. And then in one place you say that: "Rumour was

3 spread out that Ustasha would kill all civilians, and I know about some

4 individuals who in fact had a task to go around and spread rumours, such

5 as that there are Ustashas going around slaughtering children."

6 Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then you go on to say that: "Under those circumstances,

9 nobody will remain and try to -- see for themselves that that's not true.

10 Simply, all of them will leave."

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Then you go on to say this: "I personally invented a story about

13 civilians who had been massacred by Muslims from the 5th Corps in Topusko,

14 which was broadcast by CNN as well."

15 Is that right?

16 A. No, it's not right.

17 Q. But that's what you said.

18 A. Yes, and I also requested that this part of this statement in the

19 English version be removed. I said that there was an attack, and what I

20 informed the CNN was that there was an attack on the 5th Corps which was

21 moving in Kordun.

22 Q. And why wasn't this paragraph removed from your statement? Why is

23 it still here today?

24 A. I don't know why.

25 Q. Is that what you stated?

Page 12667

1 A. No, not in this form.

2 Q. And then there is another matter that has to do with your contacts

3 with ECMM in early 1992. I would just like to put this to you. Yesterday

4 we touched on this, but we -- not all of us had your statement before us.

5 And now I would like you to go to page 9 of the Serbian version, and page

6 10, paragraph 2, of the English one. His Honour Judge Robinson did not

7 have the statement in front of him yesterday, and I would simply like to

8 put to you what you stated here. You stated - and now this has to do with

9 your contacts with the members of the ECMM. You said:

10 "We did everything we could in order to establish a rapport with

11 them, and then it made it much easier to have them accept our lies. No

12 one would want to believe that their good friend would lie to them, so it

13 made sense to use this approach, which I think we were much more effective

14 with than were the Croats."

15 Is that how you stated and is that how you worked?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE MAY: Before we go any further, we have got the two

19 photographs to which Mr. Tapuskovic referred.

20 Mr. Tapuskovic, just take a look at those photographs. Then we'll

21 show them to the witness.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MAY: Are those the photographs you had in mind,

24 Mr. Tapuskovic?

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no other information than

Page 12668












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12669

1 what is indicated on the photograph.

2 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let the witness have a look at the

3 photograph first of all. Now, we can have a look at that and we can see

4 the extent of the uniform that was involved.

5 Mr. Lazarevic, was that the uniform which you had? Don't show us

6 for the moment. Just leave it there. Is that the uniform which you had?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well -- [In English] [Previous

8 translation continues]... photograph. You can see that actually it's a

9 combination of a number of uniforms.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 THE WITNESS: But you can also see the JNA officers with me.

12 Nobody really complained about me not having one of these uniforms.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.

14 Mr. Groome, is there any reason why those shouldn't be exhibited?

15 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. It may be convenient. We can find a

17 convenient way to exhibit them. It may be simply the next Prosecution

18 Exhibit, since they're Prosecution photographs.

19 MR. GROOME: Or if the Chamber wishes, we can call them tab 15 and

20 continue. The last exhibit that we used primarily with this witness is

21 348 --

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's do that. It's a good idea. Very well.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we'll mark it Prosecutor's Exhibit

24 348, tab 15.

25 JUDGE MAY: And while we're on the subject of exhibits, I

Page 12670

1 understand a statement hasn't yet been exhibited, hasn't been given a

2 number, the witness's statement, and it should be given the next number.

3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there are actually two photographs now

4 before, so should we designate those 15, 16, and the statement 17?

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let's do it.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Would you -- would the Prosecution like the

7 statement to be under seal?

8 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution would ask that

9 that particular statement be placed under seal, because it has some

10 identifying information regarding the witness.

11 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

12 THE REGISTRAR: The statement will then be marked Prosecutor's

13 Exhibit 348, tab 17, under seal, confidential.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE MAY: One concern is that exhibits going under seal, of

16 course, don't become public documents. We won't go into it now because we

17 need to finish the witness's evidence, but perhaps you might like to

18 consider how we deal with that in a more general way.

19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I make a suggestion? Over the lunch

20 break, may we redact the information that concerns us and then tender it

21 as a public exhibit?

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That seems to be a much better idea.

23 Yes. Now, re-examination.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

25 [Witness answered in English]

Page 12671

1 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, Mr. Milosevic asked you whether you are a member of

2 -- or work currently for the British intelligence service.

3 A. Could I have just one moment, please? May I ask the translator

4 not to translate for me, please, because it gives me a double --

5 Q. You're free to remove the headset.

6 A. Okay. Great. Thank you.

7 Q. Mr. Milosevic asked you whether you are currently a member of

8 British intelligence, and you said no. What I want to ask you is: Have

9 you ever been a member of British intelligence?

10 A. Absolutely never.

11 Q. Have you ever been a member of any intelligence organisation other

12 than KOS, the Yugoslav People's Army intelligence agency?

13 A. No, never.

14 Q. Now, without giving us information so specific that it would

15 identify where you are now, would you please briefly describe the nature

16 of your employment at this time.

17 A. I work as a security supervisor on one of the international

18 airports outside of Yugoslavia.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic asserted that there were warrants for your

20 arrest concerning some misdeeds that he alleges. I want to ask you to

21 take a look at Exhibit 348, tab 7. That's your passport. And I want to

22 direct you to one entry dated 1996 and three entries dated in 1997. If

23 you would look and find those entries.

24 A. Yes, I have it in front of me.

25 Q. Can you briefly describe what those entries in your passport were

Page 12672

1 for.

2 A. Simply a holiday. One was in Greece, and I believe the other one

3 was in Malta.

4 Q. And at any time -- excuse me. That passport is in the name of

5 Slobodan Lazarevic; correct?

6 A. Absolutely, yes.

7 Q. And at any time when you passed through the airport in Yugoslavia,

8 were any warrants for your arrest ever brought to your attention?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic also read a list of names of people who were in

11 -- who he claims were members of the delegation in Norway, and noted that

12 a person by the name of Savo or Miso Milosevic was not included on that.

13 I'm going to ask that Prosecution Exhibit 348, tab 8, be placed on the

14 overhead projector. And there are seven people depicted in this

15 photograph. Of -- were all of the people depicted in this photograph

16 members of the delegation that travelled from Belgrade to Norway?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Of the seven people depicted in this photograph, how many of them

19 were on the list read out by Mr. Milosevic?

20 A. Two.

21 Q. So that means there are five people, at least on this photograph,

22 that were part of the delegation but were not contained on the list read

23 by Mr. Milosevic?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic has suggested to you that when Mr. Hadzic

Page 12673

1 referred to himself as a dispatcher, that he was referring to his

2 employment, his actual employment, in a warehouse. My question to you is:

3 At the time that Goran Hadzic made this statement to you, he was a sitting

4 president; is that not correct?

5 A. That is correct, sir.

6 Q. Was there any indication that, in addition to his presidential

7 duties, he actually had continued his employment as a warehouse staff

8 member?

9 A. Absolutely not.

10 MR. GROOME: Now, I'm going to ask that you be shown a new

11 exhibit, and perhaps it can be marked as tab 18. And there are copies for

12 all the members -- or all the people who are in the courtroom here. I

13 would ask that they be distributed.

14 Q. And while that's being distributed, let me ask you a question.

15 Mr. Milosevic presented a letter from a Mr. Bosnic, who claimed that in

16 1968 you were not in Yugoslavia, and you made reference to your military

17 booklet. Can you describe for us what Prosecution 348, tab 15, is.

18 A. This is a military booklet.

19 Q. Of who?

20 A. Social Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

21 Q. And whose name is on that booklet?

22 A. My own name.

23 Q. And does it indicate your years of service back in the 1960s?

24 A. It does, on the third page of the document.

25 Q. And can you please describe those dates for us.

Page 12674

1 A. Absolutely. It's a VP, meaning the military post 8977, the city

2 is Kraljevo, and it goes from 29th of February, 1966, to the 12th of

3 February, 1968.

4 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that that just be placed briefly on the

5 overhead projector.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You referred to tab 15. It should be tab 18.

7 MR. GROOME: My apologies.

8 Q. Now, I'd ask that you be shown another document, and I'd ask that

9 this be designated tab 19 and that copies be distributed to the Chamber.

10 Mr. Lazarevic, I would ask you: Do you recognise this document?

11 A. Yes. It was signed by Colonel Cedomir Bulat.

12 Q. And what is the substance of this document?

13 A. It was supposed to prove for the benefits of a pension the number

14 of years I have spent within the 21st Corps, which was the war zone, so I

15 could get double time towards the pension funds.

16 Q. And can you please read for us what it says regarding the period

17 of time you served in the Kordun Corps, the 21st Corps.

18 A. It does confirm that me, Slobodan Lazarevic, had been in the war

19 area as a member of the 21st KK, Kordun Corps, from 21st of December,

20 1991, to the 14th of August, 1995.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Milosevic also asked you or presented you

22 with a letter purporting to be from a Mr. Mikelic, and I want to ask you

23 the following questions regarding that. You described a number of phone

24 calls that were made on a satellite phone around the time of Operation

25 Storm. Were you ever present when Mr. Mikelic was called?

Page 12675

1 A. Absolutely not.

2 Q. To your knowledge, other than the satellite phone that Colonel

3 Bulat used in your presence, was there any other satellite phone in the

4 area of the 21st Corps?

5 A. No, sir. That is the reason why we hired the office within the

6 UN; so we can use the phone.

7 Q. And am I correct in saying that in Mr. Mikelic's comments to be

8 placed before you, that he never did deny that General Perisic was in

9 daily contact with General -- or Colonel Bulat? Is that correct?

10 A. He was in daily contact, yes. And if I may add that the last call

11 which was made by Colonel Bulat to General Perisic was titled, "This is

12 our last report from the field."

13 Q. Would that indicate that it was unlikely that Colonel Bulat

14 returned at some point later and then called Mr. Mikelic?

15 A. Well, at the time -- to whom?

16 Q. You were saying that the last call that Colonel Bulat made was

17 actually --

18 A. The last report. That's how he said, "This is the last report

19 from the war," to the General Perisic. It explained the situation that we

20 were in.

21 Q. Is there any possibility that sometime after you left that office,

22 that Colonel Bulat returned and had a conversation with Mr. Mikelic that

23 you are unaware of?

24 A. No. We all left the office together.

25 Q. I want to now draw your attention to the killing of Mayor

Page 12676

1 Obradovic. Did you have occasion to see his body after he was killed?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. Mr. Milosevic, yesterday, put to you that police officers from the

4 Republic of Serb Krajina were hired by the Republic of Serbia MUP almost

5 as a favour or a way of assisting them during the course of the conflict.

6 During your testimony, you described an incident where 400 to 500 RSK

7 police officers were brought to Belgrade and used to put down a

8 demonstration.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. What is it?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is not true that I asserted that

12 the police of the Republic of Serbia hired out or rented out policemen to

13 Serbian Krajina. It says here the policeman of Serbian Krajina were hired

14 out from the police of the Republic of Serbia. I never said that

15 yesterday, and it's not true. I invoked yesterday the testimony of one of

16 the participants who appeared here as a protected witness, who spoke about

17 his involvement in the conflict between the forces of the autonomous

18 province of Western Bosnia and the forces of Izetbegovic's 5th Corps,

19 saying that they worked as instructors in the capacity of either

20 volunteers or mercenaries, and it was in no way related to any claim that

21 they had been hired out from the police force of the Republic of Serbia,

22 because if anybody was paying anybody, they were paid by the people who

23 they worked for, and they worked for the autonomous province of Western

24 Bosnia.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, let us hear the question now.

Page 12677












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12678


2 Q. The police officers that -- the 400 to 500 police officers that

3 you testified left from the RSK were issued Republic of Serbia MUP

4 uniforms to work putting down a demonstration against Mr. Milosevic, was

5 that a short-term assignment or was it in the nature of a long-term

6 assignment or hiring of them by the Serbian police?

7 A. No. It was a short-term assignment. I think it only lasted three

8 or four days, five days maximum, because they were already back by then.

9 Q. And when they returned, did they return to their original

10 positions within the RSK police?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic also asked you about medical care. Other than

13 the medical care that you described in your testimony, which you have

14 testified was actually a way of expelling elderly Croats, were you ever

15 aware of any legitimate attempt by the 21st Corps to render medical

16 assistance to Croats living within the 21st Corps area of responsibility?

17 A. It was always denied, sir.

18 Q. What was denied?

19 A. The medical help.

20 Q. So if -- so are you testifying that there were cases where Croats

21 requested medical assistance and it was actually denied?

22 A. Sir, there were requests coming through the ECMM for medical

23 assistance to certain Croatian elderly persons in those villages, and

24 those requests were denied on the basis that we don't even have for

25 ourselves, let alone for them.

Page 12679

1 Q. Now, I want to ask you about the parade on St. Vitus Day. What

2 was the purpose of the massive show of military force that we saw in the

3 videotape, if you know?

4 A. Well, obviously the purpose was purely for the PR reasons, I mean

5 to show the Croats how well we are armed, and also to show to the 5th

6 Corps.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic has put to you that it would not be unusual for

8 members of other units, particularly Republic of Serbia MUP units and

9 units from the VRS or the Yugoslav People's Army, to participate in a

10 celebration like this one. Were you able to determine which units there

11 were guests at this celebration and which were part of the display of

12 military force?

13 A. We had a reasonable way of actually assessing that, yes.

14 Q. And can you describe for us how it was you were able to

15 distinguish between guests and actual members of this military display?

16 A. By their positions on the dais. That would be one thing. The

17 other thing would be the introduction to President Martic at the time, the

18 way it was carried out. Also the vehicles used in the procession, in the

19 parade, those that belonged to the 21st Corps, or any other corps of the

20 RSK army, did have their own number plates, and I have shown the Cyrillic

21 letter "Z" on the number plates which belonged to the 21st Corps. Those

22 vehicles which carried rocket systems that were brought from Republika

23 Srpska had their number plates removed, and then after the parade they

24 were put back on and taken out of RSK into Republika Srpska.

25 Q. Would it be reasonable for us to conclude that if these rocket

Page 12680

1 launchers were simply guests of the celebration, that it would have been

2 unnecessary to have removed the VRS number plates?

3 A. Of course. If they are guests, why hide?

4 Q. Now, in the excerpt of the video that was displayed here in Court,

5 there were a number of men in dress blue uniforms in front of the podium.

6 Do you recall those men?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And can you identify from where they came?

9 A. Well, the parade uniform of those members indicates they belonged

10 to a special brigade in Belgrade.

11 Q. And what was their function, or were you able to tell what their

12 function was by their position at the podium?

13 A. An honourary one.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic has suggested that you were not known in KOS

15 and that you were nothing more than a simple interpreter. During your

16 time in the Krajina, were there other people in Knin that were as

17 qualified as yourself to interpret between Serbian and English?

18 A. Not only Knin, sir. I assume there were people who were very

19 qualified in all of the RSK or Belgrade.

20 Q. And of these people who would be equally qualified, would it be

21 fair to say that a large number of them were actually from Knin or

22 actually from the RSK?

23 A. I'm sorry. I don't quite understand the question.

24 Q. The people that -- this group of people I'm now referring to,

25 these people who were able to interpret as well as you --

Page 12681

1 A. Okay.

2 Q. -- were they actually born in the area or were they, like

3 yourself, from outside the area?

4 A. No. Most of them were from the outside. I remember a lady

5 that -- actually, she's an American, married to a guy from Krajina. She

6 ended up in there during the war, and she translated for General Musa

7 Bamayi.

8 Q. Were there a number of these interpreters, however, that were in

9 fact from the area, born there, and living there?

10 A. Yes, certainly.

11 Q. Approximately how many, if you can say?

12 A. Probably 75 to 80 per cent of interpreters.

13 Q. Is there any reason that you can think of why it was necessary for

14 you to accompany the RSK delegation as an interpreter and to pretend to be

15 from Knin, as opposed to one of these other people from the area actually

16 serving as an interpreter?

17 A. Of course there is a reason for it.

18 Q. What is that reason?

19 A. The reason was that I have been given a specific task by Colonel

20 Zimonja.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic has suggested to you that the members of the

22 ARSK army who were officers were simply members of the Yugoslav army who

23 were born in the RSK and simply remained there. Now, my question to you

24 is: Of these officers who may have been born in the RSK, how many of them

25 maintained their homes outside of the RSK and in the Belgrade area?

Page 12682

1 A. 99.9 per cent.

2 Q. And where would their families have lived?

3 A. Some were in Serbia. Wherever they had their apartments or

4 houses.

5 Q. So other than the fact that they were born in the Krajina, did

6 they have any current connection to the Krajina regarding family or place

7 of residence?

8 A. No. Some of the officers would have a visit by their wives

9 every now and then coming from Belgrade and going back, but none of them

10 lived permanently in the area.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic has put it to you that it in fact was the

12 Supreme Defence Council of the RSK that was the legal and factual organ in

13 charge of the army of the Republic of Srpska Krajina. My question to you

14 is: During your time in the 21st Corp headquarters, did you ever see any

15 orders from the SDC of the RSK?

16 A. I believe only one, and it was signed by Martic.

17 Q. Do you recall what the substance of that order was?

18 A. It was to open the fight all along the DMZ in the case of any

19 attack or a provocation by the Croatian side.

20 Q. During the time you spent in the headquarters of the 21st Corps,

21 did you ever hear Colonel Bulat call or confer with any member of the SDC

22 of RSK?

23 A. No, not even once.

24 Q. Now, under the law of the former Yugoslavia, during times of war,

25 police units would be placed under the authority of the army. At any time

Page 12683

1 during your many conversations with Toso Pajic, did he ever indicate to

2 you that he was receiving instructions from the SDC of the RSK?

3 A. Never.

4 Q. During the four peace negotiations that you attended, were there

5 ever any members of the Republic of Srpska Krajina SDC present on

6 those -- to represent or to negotiate military matters?

7 A. To the best of my recollection, not even one.

8 Q. And you've described in great detail for us the conversations that

9 the delegation had with people in Belgrade. To your knowledge, were there

10 ever any discussions or phone calls made to a member of the SDC of the RSK

11 during the peace conferences that you attended?

12 A. In my presence, not even one.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic has put it to you that your statement was in

14 fact based upon your reading of the indictment and incorporating the

15 assertions made in the indictment into your statement. The indictment was

16 written and issued in November of 2001. What year did you give your

17 statement?

18 A. In 1999, from February to June.

19 Q. Two years before the indictment?

20 A. That is correct, sir.

21 Q. Mr. Milosevic has also asserted that your testimony here is, at

22 least in part, due to some type of benefits that you're receiving from

23 your cooperation. I would ask you to briefly compare the quality of life

24 you have now as compared to what you had in Belgrade before you decided to

25 cooperate.

Page 12684

1 A. Well, I would have to say that during my life in Belgrade, I had a

2 much, much better standard of living than I do now. It's only fair to

3 remind you, because we talked about it, I left a Porsche and Mercedes at

4 home, and God knows what, not in the house. I walked out of the country,

5 sir, with a very, very small briefcase when I left Yugoslavia. I left

6 everything behind.

7 Q. Do you consider your relocation and your new identity a benefit

8 that you have received or a measure to ensure your security?

9 A. It would be for the reason of ensuring my security, sir, not as an

10 award for me testifying.

11 Q. Mr. Milosevic has characterised your testimony as a betrayal of

12 your colleagues and of Serbia. Back in 1991, 1992, can you describe for

13 us whether or not you believed in the Serb cause at that time?

14 A. Absolutely. I believed it with all my heart.

15 Q. Did you at that time consider yourself to be a loyal Serb?

16 A. I consider myself even today to be a loyal Serb.

17 Q. My final question to you, sir, is: Mr. Milosevic, yesterday, said

18 the following, at page 88 of the transcript:

19 "There were all kinds of excesses there. There probably were.

20 Whenever hundreds, thousands of people are involved, injustice and excess

21 is a common occurrence."

22 Based on your actual observations of the excesses and injustices

23 that you witnessed, how many of them were inevitable and how many of them

24 were avoidable?

25 A. Are we talking about actually the refugees being taken from

Page 12685

1 Yugoslavia back into Bosnia and Croatia?

2 Q. I'm asking you about all the injustices that you've described in

3 your two days of testimony here, both perpetrated against Serbs, against

4 Croats --

5 A. I'm sorry. There were quite a few which were unavoidable and

6 totally unnecessary, in my opinion.

7 Q. And Mr. Milosevic went on to say: But that these excesses and

8 injustices were not an official policy. Do you agree with that statement?

9 A. No, I don't. I would rather believe that they are the part of the

10 official policy of the day.

11 Q. Of whose policy?

12 A. Mr. Milosevic's.

13 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lazarevic, that concludes your evidence to the

15 International Tribunal. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.

16 You are free to go.

17 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, sir.

18 JUDGE MAY: Before you do go -- it doesn't concern you. Go, by

19 all means. But I've just got to give an order in relation to the accused.

20 I'm requested to make a formal order that he be given the

21 opportunity to meet his associates this evening at the Tribunal. I make

22 that order.

23 We'll adjourn now until half past 2.00.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.01 p.m.

Page 12686












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12687

1 --- On resuming at 2.36 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before the next witness is called, if I

4 might take a moment just to take stock, as it were, regarding what

5 exhibits the Prosecution has introduced with the last witness.

6 The Prosecution has introduced Exhibit 336.SL, and that was a

7 marked photocopy of the map, page 20.

8 347.5, the Prosecution at this stage would request that that still

9 remain marked for identification and we are not tendering it at this time.

10 And the Prosecution Exhibits 347.1.SL, .3.SL, .4.SL, and .5.SL,

11 they were photographs, the Prosecution was tendering them.

12 Regarding Prosecution Exhibit 348, all tabs from 1 through 19,

13 with tab 17 being under seal, and the Prosecution will produce a redacted

14 version of that tomorrow morning.

15 And finally, Prosecution Exhibit 349, tab 1.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

17 Yes.

18 MR. NICE: The next witness is C-034, but in fact --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.

20 MR. NICE: Sorry. The next witness is C-034, but C-034 decided a

21 couple of days ago and communicated with the Victims and Witnesses Unit to

22 this effect; that he would prefer to give evidence without any protection

23 at all. And so I call the next witness.

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

25 MR. NICE: The witness is only going to produce three exhibits.

Page 12688

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Examined by Mr. Nice:

11 Q. Your full name, please.

12 A. Your Honours, my name is Mustafa Candic.

13 Q. Mr. Candic, were you born in March of 1956 in or near Brcko, in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina? In due course, and we can have all of your background

15 if it's material, did you become a Captain First Class in the Central

16 Counter-Intelligence Group of the security organs of the air force and air

17 defence forces in Zemun, in Serbia, taking that office in 1988?

18 A. Your Honours, I was born on the 24th of March, 1956, not the 19th

19 of February, 1956. And yes, it is true that I took up my service in the

20 Central Counter-Intelligence Group of the security organs of the air force

21 and air defence and I took up that position in December 1988.

22 Q. I'm sorry that the date of February was translated to you. If it

23 can give you any more confidence, I think I said March 1956 and something

24 went wrong somewhere.

25 Very well. Overall, after 15 years in the JNA, you left the

Page 12689

1 service of that army on the 19th of February, 1992, and the reason for

2 your leaving was what? Just tell us straight away.

3 A. Your Honours, it is true that I left the former Yugoslav People's

4 Army on the 19th of February, 1992. There are countless reasons for which

5 I decided to take that important step, because I was conscious of the fact

6 that by taking that step I was putting into question my whole existence

7 and the livelihood of my family as well. However, of these countless

8 reasons, I'm going to mention just one.

9 Through my operational work and my work in the Central

10 Counter-Intelligence Group, I arrived by certain information through my

11 operational work, and I saw with my very own eyes, and I moved around the

12 territory, both of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republic of Croatia, and, as

13 I say, I saw that the Yugoslav People's Army, as an institution,

14 throughout the whole of the former Yugoslavia, was, to all intents and

15 purposes, de jure and de facto, had taken the side of just one ethnic

16 group, namely, that group being the Serb people.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Candic. You are ethnically a Muslim; correct?

18 A. Correct. I am --

19 Q. That's all you --

20 A. I am a Muslim ethnically.

21 Q. That's all you need say. And I want you to turn to the force for

22 which you worked, the Counter-Intelligence Group, which can be called KOG,

23 I think, and we're going to look at a chart soon to show how the various

24 intelligence and counter-intelligence units were formed. But just dealing

25 with KOG itself, did KOG focus on three topics: Foreign intelligence

Page 12690

1 services, Yugoslav emigre communities, and what's called the internal

2 enemy?

3 A. Your Honours, when talking about the Counter-Intelligence Group,

4 within its composition it had three separate entities, three separate

5 wholes. One of those was the sector, or department, or entity, which

6 focused on foreign intelligence services, and it investigated them and

7 researched them. The second element, the second entity, looked into

8 hostile emigre groupings, Yugoslav emigres. And the third entity dealt

9 with the internal enemy, that is to say all those elements and components

10 whose object it was to overthrow the system, to undermine the Socialist

11 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

12 Q. When I ask you a question that's susceptible to an answer yes, if

13 you feel you can just deal with it in that way, it will save us some time.

14 So my proposition was correct, and I think - just yes or no - you were

15 engaged in the internal enemy section. Yes?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. With an area of responsibility that included Kosovo and 19

18 municipalities in the north-east of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but you were also

19 empowered to or instructed to conduct investigations elsewhere in the

20 SFRY?

21 A. That also is correct.

22 Q. Promoted to major in 1990, you became one of the four assistant

23 chiefs of the central KOG, K-O-G, and Colonel Tomislav Cuk was the head of

24 the central KOG?

25 A. It is true that on the 22nd of December I was promoted to the rank

Page 12691

1 of major in the aviation, before my time, and I became one of the four

2 assistant chiefs in the centre of KOG in Zemun.

3 Q. Colonel Cuk was subordinated to Colonel Slobodan Rakocevic?

4 A. Colonel Tomislav Cuk was the head of the Counter-Intelligence

5 Group, and yes, he was subordinated to Colonel Slobodan Rakocevic, who was

6 the head of the security department in the command of air defence.

7 MR. NICE: I think the Chamber may have binders of exhibits, and

8 the first one that I'm going to turn to is the chart. If the binder could

9 have an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 350.

11 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. And therefore, I think the chart

12 will be tab 1 of that exhibit. May the English version of this go on the

13 overhead projector. Thank you very much.

14 Q. Is the position, Mr. Candic, this: That you prepared, in

15 handwriting, which is available for the accused to consider if he wishes

16 to, and others, you prepared a handwritten chart setting up the

17 organisational structure, which has been converted by others into an

18 English-language version of the same, and you are happy to explain what is

19 necessary to explain from the English-language version, drawing to our

20 attention straight away that because of the translation from your

21 handwriting to typed script, there's one spelling mistake, namely, on the

22 left-hand side, the name that reads at the moment Slobodan Kovacevic

23 should in fact read Slobodan Rakocevic, R-A-K-O-C-E-V-I-C?

24 A. That is correct. I did write this in my own hand. I drew up the

25 chart, showing the system of the security in the armed forces of the

Page 12692

1 former JNA. This schematic presentation, the chart that I see here, in

2 the English version does not correspond to the chart I myself drew.

3 Q. But it's drawn from it. And if you would be good enough to help

4 us, please, with the parts of the English chart that are material to the

5 Judges. Is it right that there's a security administration at the centre,

6 a federal secretariat for National Defence, SSNO, and in brackets we have

7 the name Aleksandar Vasiljevic beside it, he being an officer of general

8 rank and in charge? Would that be correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct. The security administration as the top

10 level in the system of security within the armed forces did exist, and at

11 the head of that security administration was General Aleksandar

12 Vasiljevic, yes.

13 Q. Would you now look below that box and to the right, where you can

14 see references to the first --

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be given a copy of that chart,

17 please? In this set that I have received, I can't see the chart. I just

18 see the rules of service, nothing more than that.

19 JUDGE MAY: It should be behind "1." Look in tab 1. Have you got

20 it?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 MR. NICE:

23 Q. What is below and to the right of the block headed "SSNO" relates

24 to the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th army and some other units with which we are not

25 concerned today, Mr. Candic. To the left is the area that you can help us

Page 12693

1 with, and that relates to the air force and AA defence security department

2 for whom the security head was Slobodan Rakocevic. Is that correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. We then see, branching off and to the right of that, three KOS

5 counter-intelligence service headquarters sections identified. Were you

6 working in one of those?

7 JUDGE KWON: Should it not be KOG instead of KOS?

8 MR. NICE: It should be KOG.

9 THE INTERPRETER: [Interpretation] Microphone, Mr. Nice.

10 MR. NICE: It should be KOG.

11 Q. And you were working in one of those?

12 A. The official title or name was never KOS. The official title in

13 the armed forces of the former Yugoslav People's Army, or the former

14 Yugoslavia, if you like, was the security service in the armed forces, and

15 within the frameworks of the security service, there were the organs of

16 security within units, that is to say, uniformed officers, and there were

17 counter-intelligence groups as well, once again officers working in

18 civilian clothes, plain clothes, officers who had quite different

19 assignments compared to the officers who were in the units, which is where

20 there were soldiers, officers, and the whole technical staff as well.

21 Q. Let's just deal with His Honour Judge Kwon's particular query. We

22 see on this chart, which is probably a reflection of what you wrote, or

23 may have been, KOS. Should that read KOS or KOG, or neither?

24 A. On this chart, where it says KOS, it should be KOG,

25 Counter-Intelligence Group, KOG, on the left-hand side, if that's what

Page 12694

1 you're thinking of.

2 JUDGE MAY: Before we move from there, we've been hearing about

3 something called K-O-S, KOS, throughout this part of the case. Perhaps we

4 could have that described.

5 MR. NICE: From the witness, yes.

6 Q. Can you help the Judges, please, with whether the term "KOS" was

7 used, however improperly, and to what KOS related when it was used.

8 A. Of course I can explain that. The term KOS, K-O-S, was

9 exclusively used among the people, and this term was left over from the

10 Second World War, the counter-intelligence service. However, this World

11 War II KOS term was transformed later on to become, within the Yugoslav

12 People's Army, the security service of the armed forces of the Socialist

13 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. So the official title was the security

14 service, and not KOS, K-O-S.

15 Q. It should be KOG and KOS is a hangover.

16 Staying with this chart, we can see on the left-hand side linked

17 to the air force and AA Defence Command Security Unit, security sections

18 1, 3, and 5, and the mark underneath it, "(uniform - worked within units

19 in the immediate area). A sentence of explanation about what these were,

20 because these were not, I think, where you were working, but just a

21 sentence of explanation about that.

22 A. I did not work there while I was working in the KOG, but before

23 that, yes, I did, in one of those sections. And they are subordinate

24 units to the command of the air force and air defence, and they were

25 security sections. First of all, the 1st Air Corps, the 3rd Air Corps,

Page 12695












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12696

1 and the 5th Air Corps. The 1st had its headquarters, its seat in

2 Belgrade, the 3rd had its seat in Nis, and the 5th Air Corps had its

3 headquarters in Zagreb. And of course, in those corps you had security

4 sections, just as you did in the command security unit for air force and

5 air defence.

6 Q. We can see from the general picture presented by this chart that,

7 of course, as well as the air force there were the armies and indeed

8 somewhere there's, I think, a navy element to be considered as well maybe,

9 I'm not sure. But can you just help us with this: Did the air force and

10 its security have some particular interest or particular scope of

11 responsibility greater than that enjoyed by the army units of like type?

12 A. The air force department of the command security unit and all the

13 units on the left-hand side of the chart were spread out throughout the

14 territory of the former Yugoslavia. So, for example, the security section

15 for war defence and anti-aircraft defence was more important than the

16 security sections in the army or the navy, because their areas of

17 responsibility were far smaller than the security department for the air

18 force and air defence.

19 Q. The air force really had authority over the whole territory as

20 opposed to local authority or more restricted authority for the armies,

21 correct, the individual armies?

22 A. Precisely so.

23 Q. Chains of command next. We'll look at what should happen in due

24 course, but -- or should happen according to the law, but in one of these

25 KOGs, one of these KOGs of which you were a member, the lines of command

Page 12697

1 would appear to go first to the air force and air defence command security

2 unit and then back to the security administration under Aleksandar

3 Vasiljevic. How did the chain of command work in practice when you were

4 engaged in exercises of a security kind?

5 A. When I worked in the realm of security, the chain of command, or

6 the professional leadership of the security organs down the vertical line

7 or hierarchy, would go as follows: From the lower security organs up to

8 the next step up the ladder, and then one rung more up the ladder, until

9 the security administration was reached, and the head of that security

10 administration, who was Aleksandar Vasiljevic. You were not allowed to

11 skip a step. You had to go step by step, in order.

12 Q. That's the theory of it. And did that mean that you would find

13 intelligence decisions, in theory, being reported to individual units that

14 weren't exclusively security units? For example, one of the KOG units,

15 should it be reporting to the air force and air defence unit itself?

16 A. We were not allowed, nor did we do something like this.

17 Q. So it went straight up to Vasiljevic through the various rungs in

18 the ladder?

19 A. Precisely so.

20 Q. If we now look at the same exhibit, 350, the passage that the --

21 or the entry in that exhibit that the accused referred to.

22 MR. NICE: May the witness see, please -- is it tab 2? Tab 2, and

23 it's paragraphs 16 and 17. It can be laid on the overhead projector,

24 please, in English, and we'll provide a B/C/S version of the same

25 paragraphs for the witness. And it may be appropriate, if we can find it,

Page 12698

1 just to lay the title of the book in the B/C/S on the overhead projector

2 for those viewing so they can see that it's an extract from the rules of

3 service of the security organs in the armed forces of the Socialist

4 Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, as it's described. Just lay the title

5 on the overhead projector briefly as well, so we can see what we're

6 looking at. Thank you. And then we'll take that away and look at

7 paragraphs 16 and 17.

8 Q. Paragraphs 16 and 17 read as follows:

9 "The security organ is directly subordinate to the command officer

10 of the command unit, institution, or staff of the armed forces in whose

11 strength it is placed in the establishment, and it is responsible to that

12 officer for its work, while JNA security organs, in organisations for NVO,

13 are responsible to the competent assistant federal secretary for National

14 Defence."

15 And then paragraph 17:

16 "The federal secretary for National Defence or a military officer

17 authorised by him manages JNA security organs with regard to the

18 application of the methods and means for the work of those organs."

19 Did the way the chain of command in fact worked match with these

20 requirements of your rules of service, Mr. Candic?

21 A. No. This is -- it did not really correspond to what is written

22 here in this text.

23 Q. And is that because, as you've already explained, the chain of

24 command was via security groupings and personnel straight up to

25 Vasiljevic?

Page 12699

1 A. Yes. So there was a vertical line, the professional line that

2 went all the way up to General Vasiljevic. And what it says here, that

3 the security organs are subordinate and responsible to the next superior

4 officer is just something that was written on the paper. They were

5 assistant commanders. But if I were to express it in percentages, I would

6 say that that represented some 10 per cent, and the 90 per cent was done

7 in accordance with this vertical line and reporting that went up to the

8 next superior level, all the way up to the security administration and

9 General Vasiljevic.

10 Q. In the result, did security officers at various levels have an

11 authority that would be perhaps wider or narrower than their rank might

12 suggest?

13 A. Well, their authorities, the authority of security officers, were

14 always wider than their rank would indicate, in reality.

15 Q. Now, you were in a counter-intelligence unit. You were concerned

16 with the internal enemy. And we are at the -- I think the beginning of

17 the 1990s. Give, if you will, for those who may not have acquaintance

18 with countries with this kind of security penetration, give a picture of

19 how -- to what degree organisations and businesses, schools, would be

20 penetrated by the intelligence services.

21 A. Your Honours, although it was illegal -- and when I say "illegal,"

22 that means that what security organs did at the time was not in accordance

23 with the legislation. However, despite that, in 1989, in 1990, in 1991,

24 pursuant to instructions and orders of the head of security

25 administration, Aleksandar Vasiljevic, and head of the security section of

Page 12700

1 my own security section, Colonel Rakocevic, we created a network of

2 collaborators who were our sources of information, and we did that in all

3 spheres of civilian society.

4 Q. When you say "all spheres," I raise a couple of hypothetical

5 examples. If you had a small business of 50 employees, would you expect

6 such a business to be penetrated? If you had a small local school with

7 perhaps ten teachers, would you expect there to be penetration to a school

8 of that size?

9 A. The main goal of penetrating all spheres of society, and that

10 includes schools, companies, and so on, so the main goal was to infiltrate

11 the authorities and police of the relevant republic. Naturally, I need to

12 add that the media, this sphere of economy, of education, were something

13 that were considered to be a target of interest of the security organs,

14 because they wanted to find collaborators in those spheres.

15 Q. I was going to turn to the bodies you've just described in a

16 minute, but just to conclude my question, were businesses targeted as

17 well? Were schools targeted, or not? So that we can have a picture of

18 life in the territory.

19 A. I will repeat once again: All segments of society were targeted,

20 including schools and companies, and the main goal, or the main interest,

21 were the organs of authority and police organs.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... irrespective

23 of ethnicity?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This was regardless of

25 ethnicity.

Page 12701


2 Q. By law, were your -- was your service allowed to investigate

3 civilians in the ordinary course of events?

4 A. By law, the security organs of armed forces were never permitted

5 to conduct investigations against civilians or for civilians unless those

6 civilians acted against armed forces. But even in those cases, security

7 organs had an obligation to submit a written request to relevant

8 ministries of internal affairs, and had an obligation to conduct such

9 operations in cooperation with the Ministry of Interior and state security

10 service.

11 Q. In practice, by the time we're speaking of, was your service

12 investigating civilians without going through those formalities?

13 A. In practice - and now I'm referring to 1989, 1990, 1991 - the

14 security service placed the focus of its work precisely on civilians and

15 did not report the Ministries of the Interior about that, nor did it

16 inform competent authorities or organs of the state security service.

17 Moreover, it looked for collaborators in the state security organs

18 themselves, from which they were supposed to get a permission.

19 Q. So far as you could judge, was reporting on this non-legal form of

20 investigation effected up to Vasiljevic's level? So far as you could

21 judge, was he authorising or not this type of unlawful investigation?

22 A. General Aleksandar Vasiljevic and Slobodan Rakocevic were the

23 initiators of this process that I described. This was done pursuant to

24 their order. No security organ would dare do something like this without

25 informing them.

Page 12702

1 Q. Before I move on, something not in the summary but that is in the

2 statement. The accused, the amici can find it at page 4.

3 Was there an occasion, either 1990 or 1991, in the course of which

4 Rakocevic made reference to the accused and also to the Academy of

5 Science?

6 A. Your Honours, there was a situation, or rather, a special meeting

7 with the members of the Central Counter-Intelligence Group which worked in

8 the entire territory of the former Yugoslavia, because, as you could see

9 from that first diagram, the Central Counter-Intelligence Group had three

10 detachments. The first one was in Skopje, the second in Zagreb, and the

11 third one in Sarajevo. So from the entire territory of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina, collaborators sent in reports to the security organs of the

13 Counter-Intelligence Group, based on which additional reports were made

14 which were then directly sent to Rakocevic and General Vasiljevic, who was

15 the head of the security administration.

16 At that meeting that I mentioned, the meeting called by Slobodan

17 Rakocevic, he was visibly angry because he did not have an opportunity to

18 read basically a single report from Belgrade. And he explained this anger

19 of his by saying that the Serb Academy of Science -- of Arts and Sciences

20 was active in Belgrade, that they were working on a project called

21 Memorandum, that the main initiator and author -- ideological initiator of

22 this project was Slobodan Milosevic and that we, as security organs, had

23 no information about what was going on in Belgrade.

24 Q. So this is an officer of the rank of Slobodan Rakocevic, who was,

25 I think -- what was he? A colonel at this stage? And the hard problem he

Page 12703

1 was facing, or that you were facing, was that you were getting no

2 intelligence from this particular quarter, whereas you were getting

3 intelligence from your network of sources from basically everywhere else

4 that you wanted to get intelligence?

5 A. That's precisely so. So Colonel Slobodan Rakocevic in fact wanted

6 to say that security organs of the Counter-Intelligence Group had no

7 collaborators in Belgrade, which is where all the main decisions were

8 made, as he put it.

9 Q. And before I move on, was it surprising or was it standard and

10 unsurprising for an officer at that rank and at that time to be linking

11 problems in the way that we've just heard with the Academy of Science in

12 the way that he did?

13 A. The way he did it was done, as far as I was able to understand it,

14 because he saw in that memorandum, and also in the steps taken by Slobodan

15 Milosevic, that that was a way to break up Socialist Federal Republic of

16 Yugoslavia and disintegrate it, and at the same time create the Greater

17 Serbia.

18 Q. Paragraph 11 of the summary. In October 1991, a little later,

19 after the 5th Air Force Corps retreated from Zagreb Bihac -- which the

20 Chamber can find in its atlas, page 26, B-2. We don't need to place this

21 on the overhead projector, this is, I think, really for the Chamber's

22 reference. At the moment, in any event. Did you find yourself escorting

23 people to investigate the radio transmitter at Bihac air base and did you

24 stay there for some four days?

25 A. Your Honours, it is right that sometime in late September or early

Page 12704












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12705

1 October - I can't remember the exact date - I received an order for

2 Colonel Rakocevic to escort a column of three radio reconnaissance

3 vehicles whose object was to detect, or rather, to use the method of radio

4 trigonometry in order to find locations of radio amateur stations in the

5 vicinity of the airport in Bihac, which supplied or sent reports to Zagreb

6 via those ham radios and reported on every sortie or every take-off of

7 airplanes from the Bihac airport.

8 Q. Briefly, is it right that when there, you found that the security

9 organs and the Counter-Intelligence Group of the 5th Air Force Corps had

10 been relocated to the hunting lodge at Bihac, and you then met a friend of

11 yours, Major Cedo Knezevic?

12 A. I first handed over these vehicles to Colonel Topalovic who was

13 head of security section of the 5th Air Force Corps at the Bihac airport.

14 At the time, he was drunk. When I came, when I arrived, I was able to see

15 several fires in the vicinity of the Bihac airport, in the evening hours.

16 He was angry. I asked him what it was about. He told me that all

17 airplanes had taken off from the Bihac airport and almost burned down the

18 village called Vaganac, or Zegar or something like that, I don't remember.

19 And I was able to see that with my own eyes.

20 MR. NICE: That is not in the summary, Your Honour, but on page 5

21 of the statement.

22 Q. Let's move forward if we can, please, Mr. Candic. If I'm right in

23 what I've described to you as background events leading up to your

24 re-encountering Major Knezevic, can we move on to this: Did you then also

25 see at the hunting lodge some members of the SDB of Serbia?

Page 12706

1 A. When I came to Bihac, I didn't know exactly what Cedo Knezevic

2 was, so I asked Colonel Topalovic about that, and he told me where he was

3 and gave me a vehicle which took me to the hunting lodge where Major

4 Knezevic was. In the hunting lodge, in addition to Colonel Knezevic,

5 there were several other members of the 2nd Detachment of the

6 Counter-Intelligence Group of the air force and air defence, but there

7 were also several uniformed individuals who did not have official insignia

8 of the JNA, and also several members of the regular military police.

9 Q. Did you discover whether there were members of the SDB of Serbia

10 there? Yes or no.

11 A. There were members of the SDB of Serbia, yes.

12 Q. Did you discover how it was they came to be there? If so, how did

13 you make that discovery? Was it from what they told you or from some

14 other source?

15 A. I knew that some members of the SDB of Serbia, primarily those

16 that had fled from the Republic of Croatia, namely, Serbs that used to

17 work for the Croatian SDB, that they transferred to the SDB of Serbia, and

18 occasionally they would go to Bihac, Lika, Banija, Kordun, where they

19 would head paramilitary formations in those areas. Naturally, prior to

20 going to these areas that I just mentioned, they would all go to the

21 hunting lodge in Bihac, where Major Knezevic was also present, and some

22 other operatives of the 2nd Detachment of the Counter-Intelligence Group

23 of air force and air defence.

24 Q. So whatever their history at the time of their deployment or

25 redeployment to Bihac, and as you understood it, they were formally

Page 12707

1 members of the Serbian SDB?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Let's move on now to what you learnt from Major Knezevic. Did you

4 discover that he was conducting operations there with, amongst others,

5 Lieutenant Colonel Dusan Smiljanic?

6 A. Yes, I did. I discovered that.

7 Q. And did he tell you that he indeed had been assigned a special

8 task?

9 A. He didn't say that to me on his own. I simply asked him whether

10 he was just lying and sleeping there or actually doing something, because

11 I did not receive any reports of his in Belgrade. And then he started

12 explaining his mission to me, his assignment. Specifically, he told me

13 that he had a direct link with the security administration and General

14 Vasiljevic, that he was in charge of the operational -- operation called

15 Proboj 1, or Breakthrough 1, that certain Lieutenant Colonel Smiljanic

16 from the 5th military district was heading that operation and that he was

17 his deputy. When I asked him what was the object, the purpose of that

18 operation, he told me that its object was to arm the Serbs in Banija,

19 Lika, Kordun, and Bosnian Krajina.

20 Q. Pause there for one second. Those areas can be - and they're

21 areas rather than towns - can be found on the atlas, page 20, at letter

22 C-3 and thereabouts. And you'll be looking -- in fact, if I hold up my

23 atlas, you'll be looking at the words that come with the single letters

24 spread out across the page, because they're describing the areas, and you

25 can see two of them where I'm indicating, running up the map, roughly in

Page 12708

1 the middle. Kordun and Banija. They're a little hard to see.

2 Now, he told you that was the object of the exercise, and I'm

3 going to ask you in due course what parts of this you saw evidenced

4 yourself and whether in other parts you were just dependent on what

5 Knezevic told you. But did he explain to you how this arming process was

6 to take place?

7 A. Well, he did. He did explain how this entire process was supposed

8 to develop. He told me that through collaborators, people who used to

9 collaborate with us, and the leaders of the SDS from the areas I

10 mentioned, that those people would personally come to him, and to

11 Lieutenant Colonel Smiljanic, and give them their requests in terms of

12 weaponry, ammunition, and so on, so that they could prepare and carry out

13 certain operations in those areas and put up resistance to Croats, because

14 at the time there was a war going on in the Republic of Croatia.

15 Q. That's what he explained to you. Did you see any of this

16 happening yourself or not?

17 A. The first thing I asked him was, "Where did you get the weapons

18 from? How can you distribute them?" And he said he was distributing them

19 from the depot of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

20 that the next evening he would show me some of these depots, and that is

21 exactly what he did. I had the opportunity to visit three such depots.

22 Q. And what quantity of weapons did you find in them?

23 A. Well, in those three depots that I visited - I didn't see them all

24 and I didn't even know the total number of depots - the three depots I did

25 see were half empty, but in all of the three taken together, there was

Page 12709

1 enough weapons to arm 20.000 to 30.000 people.

2 Q. Were records kept of this arming process and of the issue of arms

3 to individuals?

4 A. It is purely by chance that I learned that very precise records

5 are kept about weapons issued to individuals, indicating exact amounts. I

6 learned that one evening when I was lying on a bed in a room which served

7 as an office-come-rest room, while Major Knezevic was typing out reports.

8 At one point I asked him if I could give him a hand. I got up and

9 approached him from behind, and he said he didn't need any assistance.

10 But I could see over his shoulder the sheet in the typewriter, and I could

11 see the heading: "Operation Proboj 1." I could see the date and contents,

12 as indicated, namely, activities related to the arming of Serbs for

13 such-and-such a day. Below the contents, I also saw the names of people

14 to which these weapons were distributed. I couldn't stand behind his back

15 a long time, because I didn't want to bother him, but still I could see

16 that all the names were Serbian.

17 Q. Did you see to whom this letter was addressed, or were you told to

18 whom this letter was addressed?

19 A. Certainly. Right there on the right-hand side, it said, "Security

20 Administration, to General Vasiljevic."

21 MR. NICE: May the witness now look at and may we view on the

22 overhead projector the last exhibit of the three to be produced, Exhibit

23 350, I think it's tab 3. If the usher would be good enough to place the

24 first page of the Cyrillic version on the overhead projector, to begin

25 with, then place the last page of the Cyrillic version with the signature

Page 12710

1 line on it on the overhead projector. We can see that this is a letter

2 dated the 16th of October, or 15th of October -- I think 16th, actually,

3 of 1994, and that it comes from Dusan Smiljanic, the man to whom you've

4 referred and with whom Knezevic was working at the time. If the usher

5 could be good enough now to place, please, page 3 of the English version

6 - that's page 3 at the bottom - on the overhead projector, and if Mr.

7 Candic could please have the registry page 02009470 before him, which is

8 the third sheet of the original version. Thank you very much.

9 Your Honours, this is a long letter, and it's a letter that goes

10 to General Mladic, as we saw briefly, from Smiljanic, and of course, it's

11 a historic letter with a number of complaints and concerns he raises. And

12 although they may be of interest, they're not necessarily material to our

13 inquiries here.

14 Q. But on the page we're looking at, do we see the following text in

15 this letter, please, Mr. Candic, and at the first passage you're looking

16 at, is there this:

17 "At the beginning of August 1991, on a task given by the UB/

18 Security Administration, the Proboj-2 operational team was formed under my

19 leadership..." and then some further references to that.

20 And then if we go down the page to the next paragraph, do we find

21 the following:

22 "In the period from August to October 1991 we distributed or

23 withdrew from what are now Ustasha depots about 20.000 assorted weapons,

24 and our involvement in military organising and the performance of

25 professional security tasks to a high standard, among other things, was

Page 12711

1 well known to General Kelecevic too. This can also be documented from

2 reports."

3 If we go further down the page, to save time, and towards the

4 bottom, picking it up at "In Bihac":

5 "In Bihac, in January 1991, I accepted the duty of chief of

6 security in the 10th Corps..."

7 He then sets out his superiors and some references to other

8 officers. And then right down, further down:

9 "A considerable number of officers, especially those from the

10 area, were utterly demoralised..."

11 And then further on, right at the foot of the page:

12 "By agreement with the OB, I organised OB and individual officers

13 from the police for the organised arming of Serbs in the town itself. I

14 do not remember, but I think that about 5.000 assorted infantry weapons

15 were distributed. The logistics base, headed by Colonel Skondric, was the

16 supply source for the arming."

17 And then over the page:

18 "As the forming of the unit had begun, we were asked to engage

19 officers who came from those areas in it immediately."

20 And then he goes on. And perhaps that's all I need cover on that.

21 Now, I'll come back to the reference to Proboj 2 in a second, but

22 so far as the passage in the letter dealing with the arming of Serbs, does

23 that accord with what you've told us and what you experienced, Mr. Candic?

24 A. What I saw and what you read, and I read too, tallies 100 per

25 cent, although I really didn't know about this document. The code is

Page 12712

1 right, and my assessment of the weapons already distributed seems to be

2 right, as well as the locality where all that happened. I am simply

3 speechless. I believe all this is true.

4 Q. According to the letter, the exercise of --

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. There's an objection.

6 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, may I just raise this very briefly:

7 It's been referred to by my learned friend as a historical letter,

8 however, it's very unclear as to what this witness can actually say about

9 the letter, although he can say something about its content. The Trial

10 Chamber has been relatively strict in relation to letters put forward by

11 the accused, and perhaps Your Honours would consider the admissibility of

12 this document, given that the witness has stated that he can say nothing

13 really about the fact of the letter itself.

14 JUDGE MAY: Well, Ms. Higgins, the letters which the accused has

15 put forward have been letters which were supplied to him, for him to

16 cross-examine. We've allowed him to cross-examine upon them. We haven't

17 allowed him to put them in as exhibits, for the very good reason that

18 there mainly ammunition for cross-examination and he can call evidence

19 about it. This document, and the Prosecution can deal with its

20 authenticity, is one which I should have thought speaks for itself, and we

21 really, I would have thought, required no further evidence about it, but

22 we will ask the Prosecution if they can add anything by way of confirming

23 it.

24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, its provenance can be dealt with shortly.

25 It is a document that speaks for itself. I use the word "historic"

Page 12713












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12714

1 because of course it's dated 1994 and it's therefore reflections by the

2 author of earlier events. That doesn't change its essential

3 admissibility. The ability of this witness to identify passages in it

4 that accord with his own experience is helpful in relation both to the

5 document itself when we seek to lay it before you and, in a sense,

6 confirming his evidence, so it's a useful and proper exercise. And I'll

7 come back, if I may, in a minute or so to the precise provenance of this

8 document falling into our hands.

9 May I move on and come back to that? Would that be convenient?

10 Q. The letter, insofar as we're able to consider it, Mr. Candic,

11 refers to the period August to October 1991, and also refers to something

12 called Proboj 2. We heard from the interpreters what "Proboj" means in

13 translation. Was there a Proboj 2 exercise of which you became aware?

14 A. It is true that I also found about an operation called Proboj 2.

15 It was an operation which again had the objective of arming Serbs, but

16 this time in Eastern Slavonia and Baranja, and the operation was led by

17 Major Ljuban Karan from the Central Counter-Intelligence Group.

18 Q. Can I interrupt you for just a second? No criticism of the way

19 you're giving your evidence but just to make matters easier for the

20 Chamber. From whom did you learn the -- learn of this project, and was it

21 something you saw yourself at all or are you entirely dependent on what

22 you were told about it?

23 A. As for the Operation Proboj 2, I'm relying on things I heard, but

24 also on things I saw with my own eyes. Before learning anything directly,

25 I heard certain things about it. Namely, shortly after I learned about

Page 12715

1 the Operation Proboj 1 in Belgrade, or, more precisely, in Zemun, Major

2 Cedo Knezevic arrived, and that day he -- Major Ljuban Karan and I had

3 coffee together, on which occasion Major Ljuban Karan, who was in charge

4 of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja, complained that Serbs in those parts lack

5 weapons. Then Cedo Knezevic offered his good services and said, "Why

6 didn't you say so before? I have enough weaponry to arm half of America."

7 And he promised that as soon as he returned to Bihac, he would send two

8 truckfuls of weapons to him. These two trucks indeed arrived. However,

9 they arrived when Major Karan Ljuban was no longer there. He was away on

10 mission in Eastern Slavonia with his team. And since the soldiers, the

11 policemen who drove those two trucks didn't know what to do with the

12 weaponry, I went to see Colonel Slobodan Rakocevic to ask what to do with

13 these two trucks, believing that he was familiar with the whole project.

14 Colonel Slobodan Rakocevic was rather angry and criticised me

15 strongly. He dropped what he was doing, left his office, and ordered that

16 these weapons be unloaded in one of the classrooms of a training centre

17 for the Counter-Intelligence Group in Zemun. After that, this weaponry

18 remained long after I left. As long as I was there, in fact, these

19 weapons remained there. But the papers I later saw were headed "Operation

20 Proboj 1" and then information was listed below that they had managed to

21 gather. Later on, I heard things and learned things myself about an

22 operation called Proboj 2.

23 Q. Now, the operation you've just been describing, involving Major

24 Ljuban Karan, this is Proboj 2, and it was not successful because of the

25 intervention of Rakocevic. What was the reason for his objection to the

Page 12716

1 provision of these arms?

2 A. I don't want to guess at the reasons. All I know is what he told

3 me. He told me, "Why are you going over my head? We have the Yugoslav

4 People's Army, and if there is a war to be waged, it will be waged by the

5 JNA, not paramilitary formations." That's all I know. What the real

6 reason was, or whether there was another reason, I really can't say.

7 Q. In the course of this unsuccessful or almost totally unsuccessful

8 Proboj 2, do the names Hadzic and Arkan become involved in some way?

9 A. Even before the Proboj 2 operation, which I learnt about and saw

10 things about, I knew about both Goran Hadzic and Arkan. I knew they were

11 close friends. While Goran Hadzic was a source of Major Ljuban Karan's

12 named --

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the code-name.

14 A. They often travelled together, and there was no particular reason

15 for that.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. Did Hadzic's attitude towards the intelligence services of which

18 you were a part change on his taking office of president?

19 A. Well, Hadzic's attitude was such that he never even made an

20 appearance in the Central Counter-Intelligence Group. He was a

21 collaborator, a source of Major Ljuban Karan's. However, Major Ljuban

22 Karan, without being very open about it, often was wont to say that Hadzic

23 had a very good relationship with members of the SDB of Serbia and people

24 from the Ministry of Defence of Serbia, that he has a good reputation and

25 enjoys great authority as the president of the autonomous province of

Page 12717

1 Slavonia, Baranja, and Eastern Srem -- or rather Eastern Slavonia,

2 Baranja, and Srem.

3 Q. Again, within the overall setting of the Proboj 2 dealings or

4 preparations, did you learn from Ljuban Karan anything about Arkan's

5 involvement in either volunteers or the provision of weapons?

6 A. Your Honours, from Major Ljuban Karan, I also learnt things about

7 Arkan. Major Ljuban Karan had only good things to say about him, and he

8 said that were it not for Arkan and his volunteers, Serbs in Slavonia,

9 Baranja, and Srem would come to a bad end, but thanks to him, the Serbs

10 are holding out well in Krajina, and Arkan, in his words, was doing all

11 that the Yugoslav People's Army was supposed to do, whereas the army

12 itself is keeping a low profile, being inferior to him and his force.

13 Q. And finally, in the event, were some -- to your knowledge, were

14 some limited number of weapons from the Proboj 2 project eventually

15 distributed?

16 A. Immediately upon return from Slavonia, when he learned that these

17 two trucks were unloaded at the Central Counter-Intelligence Group, Major

18 Karan went to see Rakocevic. He was very angry. He wanted the entire

19 amount of weaponry to be issued to him, to transfer to Eastern Slavonia.

20 However, he didn't get his way because Rakocevic told him that he would

21 get a few barrels, meaning a few rifles, but exclusively for high-quality

22 sources and collaborators, as reward for their work. And as far as I

23 know, on that occasion Ljuban Karan managed to get only seven or eight

24 barrels out of the entire consignment and drive them away by car. The

25 rest, as I said, remained in that classroom at the Central

Page 12718

1 Counter-Intelligence Group headquarters.

2 MR. NICE: Before I move on from Proboj 2, the letter, Exhibit

3 350, tab 3, was produced to an investigator who will be a witness and who

4 is in a position, I think, to give evidence from the author, acknowledging

5 authenticity of the letter.

6 Q. After Proboj 2, was there a plan for Proboj 3, but Proboj 3 was

7 wholly unsuccessful?

8 A. Yes. At the initiative of Major Ljuban Karan, to whom Lisica

9 Darvin, from a subordinate security organ, married to a woman from

10 Ljubuski, this other man was forced by Karan to create a network of

11 sources in that area --

12 Q. I'll cut you very short, because as it was unsuccessful, we need

13 know no more than this: The intention was to arm what geographical area

14 and what population?

15 A. Well, again, the Serbian population.

16 Q. And in what area?

17 A. Western Herzegovina.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, of course the area we've just been

19 considering is on page 23, at D-2 in the atlas. I move to paragraph 18.

20 Q. Was there, or were there efforts pursued to distribute weapons in

21 north-eastern Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. It's not that efforts were made. Rather, the arming of Serbs in

23 the north-eastern Bosnia, where I was an operative in charge of reporting

24 on the situation in that area regarding arming of Serbs in that area, I,

25 as security officer, classified them along three lines.

Page 12719

1 The first line relates to first information I managed to collect

2 on the arming of Serbs in northern Bosnia is that from the 17th Corps, a

3 large amount of weapons were driven away to Mount Ozren, near Tuzla, and

4 stored in abandoned mines. I want to remind you that Mount Ozren is

5 populated exclusively by Serbs. There were no units of the JNA or even

6 reserve positions. And I saw absolutely no reason why weapons from

7 official depots would be driven to some mines.

8 MR. NICE: Your Honours can find Ozren Mountain to the west of

9 Tuzla, page 28, C-2.

10 Q. In the absence of any JNA units, the inference to be drawn by you

11 was what, that the weapons were to be handed over to whom?

12 A. Leaders of the SDS. I was informed by my sources that these were

13 people who worked in the state security service, who also had networks of

14 collaborators of their own, collecting their own intelligence, and it was

15 them who supplied me with reports of this nature.

16 Q. The second line -- you've referred to three lines, in your own

17 terminology. The second line?

18 A. The second line of the arming of Serbs in north-eastern Bosnia,

19 and I would even say in the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina, was through the

20 proclaimed mobilisation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Everybody was supposed

21 to respond to the call-up: Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats. However, shortly

22 afterwards, the president of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

23 Alija Izetbegovic, made an appeal to Bosniaks and Croats not to respond to

24 the call-up, and those who had already responded, he said, should leave

25 their units and go home. In that way, the civilian population that was

Page 12720

1 mobilised from the reserve force consisted entirely of Serbs who had

2 joined units of the army as reservists, were issued with weapons and

3 equipment, and in that way they were armed, on the one hand; and on the

4 other hand, they were very well paid for their work as reservists. I also

5 know that they were allowed to go home.

6 Q. The third line, then, of the three you've characterised?

7 A. The third line was as follows, when we're talking about the arming

8 of Serbs in north-eastern Bosnia. That is something that reminded me to a

9 great extent to what was happening in Bihac, in the hunting lodge there,

10 and something that I talked about when I spoke about Major Cedo Knezevic

11 and Lieutenant Colonel Dusan Smiljanic. On one occasion, when I had gone

12 to north-eastern Bosnia, Lieutenant Colonel Svetozar Dzigurski, who was

13 very close to individual members of the state security services of Serbia,

14 the SDB, told me that he had agreed with Major Cedo Knezevic that Cedo

15 Knezevic, from Bihac, should send a small transport vehicle of the

16 pinzgauer type, the police type of pinzgauer vehicle, with weapons and

17 ammunition, and this to be sent to a certain Stevo Todorovic, from the

18 village of Slatina, close to Bosanski Samac. He asked me that the vehicle

19 that was driven by the policeman belonging to the Yugoslav People's Army,

20 to wait for it between Derventa and Doboj, to meet it there on that

21 stretch of road. And that as I knew the terrain around north-eastern

22 Bosnia, that I should go to the village of Slatina beforehand to find

23 Stevo Todorovic, and to have these weapons unloaded there for him.

24 Q. Thank you. We'll now deal with your reporting. When you sent

25 reports to your superiors about these events - and by your superiors, I

Page 12721

1 mean Rakocevic and Vasiljevic - were you allowed, encouraged, or

2 otherwise, to make full reports of what was going on?

3 A. Your Honours, working in the Central Counter-Intelligence Group,

4 objectively speaking, I did write about all the events that took place,

5 and their details, in the area of my own responsibility, or rather, in the

6 area of responsibility of north-eastern Bosnian, and among other things, I

7 wrote about the activities of the leaders of the SDS, the leaders of the

8 SDA, the HDZ parties, but also about the arming of all those three groups.

9 Q. Were your reports accepted as drafted or were you encouraged in

10 any way to modify them?

11 A. The reports that I wrote, when it came to the arming of Serbs and

12 the activities of the SDS, this dominated, not because I was a Bosniak and

13 then I tended to overemphasise this, to inflate it and to say that one

14 side was more dangerous than the other and vice versa, but because I had

15 received reports from my collaborators of this kind. And it was on the

16 basis of how my superiors reacted to my reports, to what I would write, I

17 was able to see that they did not attach any importance to some vital

18 pieces of information which I sent up to them regarding the SDS and the

19 arming of the Serbs in north-eastern Bosnia.

20 Q. Was there an occasion when you wanted to see General Vasiljevic

21 about this?

22 A. Yes, there was. I did want to see General Vasiljevic, and I was

23 very angry, because I received very reliable data, authentic information,

24 about a decision taken by the leadership of the SDS to the effect that the

25 non-Serbian population from Bijeljina and Zvornik, Bratunac, and

Page 12722












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12723

1 Srebrenica, should be dislocated to the Tuzla area, whereas the Serbian

2 population from Tuzla and the environs of Tuzla should be relocated to the

3 other regions: Bijeljina, Zvornik, Bratunac, and Srebrenica, which is to

4 say along the banks of the River Drina.

5 This report of mine was met, to put it mildly, with statements

6 that this was impossible. However, I knew that it was a very serious

7 report, because I knew who gave me the information, supplied me with

8 information of this kind, and I was highly revolted and angry, and asked

9 Colonel Cuk for a meeting with General Vasiljevic so that he could explain

10 to me why the security service of the armed forces didn't think my report

11 interesting enough.

12 Q. Were you allowed to meet the general?

13 A. Colonel Tomislav Cuk did not allow me to see the general. He just

14 patted me on the back and said, "Muki, leave that alone for now. Don't go

15 into that matter." And he did not permit me to have this meeting. But I

16 could have gone on my own, sidestepped Colonel Cuk and gone to General

17 Vasiljevic myself. However, I didn't do that, and I slowly began to put

18 the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together in my head, and that is why I

19 subsequently left the Yugoslav People's Army.

20 Q. Before we turn to one or two other topics, a little bit more about

21 General Vasiljevic. Though he was several rungs up the ladder from you,

22 did you ever see him at your meetings? Did he attend your meetings? This

23 is not in the summary. It's at page 4 of the statement.

24 A. Well, of course. General Aleksandar Vasiljevic, as the chief of

25 the security administration and one of the foremost authorities in the

Page 12724

1 area, somebody who had a vast amount of knowledge and who was a great

2 professional in his field, he was a guest in all the other departments, or

3 rather, not a guest, but he tried to be present in all the departments, to

4 visit all the departments, the navy and all the other security organs, et

5 cetera.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues]... meeting of Colonel Rakocevic

7 where General Vasiljevic was in attendance, where something was said about

8 loyalty oaths that generals had been asked to sign up to?

9 A. Your Honours, I was present. I attended one of those meetings

10 when General Aleksandar Vasiljevic -- and I never saw him more angry than

11 he was then. He was prone to anger on occasion, but at that particular

12 time he was beside himself with anger. And he told us that Slobodan

13 Milosevic allowed himself the gall to ask the generals of the Yugoslav

14 People's Army, the Serbs, to sign a loyalty oath to him. And his comment

15 was so angry that he just told us that we should focus our activity

16 towards the fact that not only the generals were coming under scrutiny,

17 but that we should see whether there were others who opted in that way or

18 declared themselves in that fashion.

19 Q. Can you give us a date or approximate date for this meeting where

20 Vasiljevic complained of being asked to sign a loyalty oath to the

21 accused?

22 A. I think, Your Honours, that that was immediately before the events

23 that came to pass in the Republic of Slovenia.

24 MR. NICE: Paragraph 20. And I have an eye on the clock. I don't

25 know what time the Court is sitting until today.

Page 12725

1 JUDGE MAY: A quarter past.


3 Q. Was there an incident involving a Catholic priest in which you

4 became involved or in the end of which you became involved?

5 A. Yes, I do know about that incident involving a Catholic priest. I

6 think, as far as I remember, that his name was Josip something or other.

7 I'm not quite sure of his last name. Colonel Slobodan Rakocevic called me

8 and issued an order to me that with Radojcic, a man named Radojcic,

9 Radenko Radojcic, that I should report to him and to transfer that

10 Catholic priest in a black Marija used by the police, a closed van, to the

11 Brcko area, which was where Croats lived.

12 Q. Did you do that, but did you at that time or thereabouts discover

13 what had actually happened to the priest?

14 A. I accepted to carry out the orders of Colonel Slobodan Rakocevic

15 and I reported to Radenko Radojcic. I came into contact with him and that

16 was actually the first time that I learned about this Catholic priest. He

17 told me that the man had been arrested somewhere in the Banija area and

18 that they tried to convince him to cooperate and collaborate but that they

19 had failed and that, for that reason, he was transferred to the Batajnica

20 airport, into a room where he was locked up, and on that same day, when I

21 went to take him over and transfer him to the Brcko area, I saw that he

22 was in a very bad state, that he had been tortured, that he was exhausted,

23 and that he was hardly able to stand up on his own two feet.

24 Q. What did you understand or calculate the reason to be for his

25 being taken thus to Brcko, or the Brcko area?

Page 12726

1 A. I would say that the reason for having him transferred to the

2 Brcko area was, and particularly an area inhabited by Croats, was that the

3 Croatian population should take him in as an elderly man and should help

4 him. He wouldn't know where -- he wouldn't know where he had been. He

5 couldn't have told them all the terrors that he had had to live through

6 and experience, on the one side, and on the other hand, they would help

7 him to go back to where he had come from, that is to say to Banija, or as

8 Brcko is the frontier, the border with Croatia, to transfer him back to

9 Croatia, and in that way, to instil fear and panic among the Croatian

10 populace in the Posavina area.

11 JUDGE MAY: That's a convenient moment, is it?

12 MR. NICE: I shan't be much longer tomorrow. I'm sorry it's been

13 a little slower than I forecast, but I'll be finished in 20 minutes more.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Candic, we're going to adjourn now until tomorrow

15 morning, 9.00. Could you be back then to continue your evidence, and

16 could you remember in the adjournment not to speak to anybody about it

17 until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution

18 team. Very well. 9.00 tomorrow morning.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.15

20 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day of

21 November 2002, at 9.00 a.m.