Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13727

 1                          Tuesday, 3 December 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The witness entered court]

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

 7                          WITNESS:  WITNESS MILAN BABIC [Resumed]

 8                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                          Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

10            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like the AV booth to play

11    the third excerpt from the tape that we haven't seen until the end

12    yesterday.

13                          [Trial Chamber confers]

14    [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

15            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

16                          [Videotape played]

17            "WITNESS MILAN BABIC:  In the first half of September 1991, we discussed

18    the need for officers, staff officers, in the Krajina.  I asked for this

19    meeting -- in fact, before that, Boro Rasuo and Zoran Kalicanin found a

20    volunteer, a volunteer who would -- who volunteered to go to Krajina, and

21    that was Colonel Radoslav Maksic.  And he said that he could find another

22    ten officers for the staff but that the request should be made via

23    Milosevic so that they could meet.

24            And the third point on which I'd like to talk --

25            "MR. HARDIN:  Just a minute.  So you said that Rasuo and Kalicanin

Page 13728

 1    had found this Radoslav Maksic to come --

 2            "THE INTERPRETER:  Maksic, yes.

 3            "MR. HARDIN:  -- to come to the Krajina, and Maksic said that he

 4    could find other officers for the staff.  And was it Maksic that said that

 5    you needed to take your request to Milosevic?

 6            "WITNESS MILAN BABIC:  Well, we were there -- I was taken to Maksic's

 7    apartment, and it was there that we talked about it.

 8            "MR. HARDIN:  And he was present?

 9            "WITNESS MILAN BABIC:  And as I recollect -- as I recollect, we jointly

10    came to it.  Well, I cannot recollect exactly, but we could say it was our

11    common conclusion or position.  You see, Maksic was still on active duty

12    as an officer, and he couldn't leave without the approval.  And he wanted

13    to have this approval to be able to leave.

14            "MR. HARDIN:  So the concurrences that you would go see Milosevic

15    included the concurrences of Maksic, Rasuo, Kalicanin, and yourself?

16            "WITNESS MILAN BABIC:  Well, as I -- my recollection goes, it was Maksic

17    who insisted that he must have the approval for leaving.  That's the way

18    it [inaudible].

19            "MR. HARDIN:  Yes.  I understand that, that he needs the approval,

20    but you said that there was a concurrence that you need to go see

21    Milosevic.

22            "WITNESS MILAN BABIC:  Well, you know, I can't remember exactly, but the

23    conclusion was that Milosevic would have to resolve this.

24            "MR. HARDIN:  I understand that.  I'm trying to understand who was

25    involved at that time, when you came to that conclusion.

Page 13729

 1            "WITNESS MILAN BABIC:  Well, they took me to Maksic --

 2            "MR. HARDIN:  I know, but who was there?

 3            "WITNESS MILAN BABIC:  Well, Rasuo, Kalicanin, Maksic, and myself.

 4            "MR. HARDIN:  That's what I asked you.  Okay.

 5            "WITNESS MILAN BABIC:  Well, I already mentioned it, so I thought --

 6            "MR. HARDIN:  I know, but I want to confirm, because sometimes

 7    it's not really clear.  Okay.  That's good."

 8            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's enough.  I think it's enough.

 9    This is enough.

10            JUDGE MAY:  We can go into open session.

11                          [Open session]

12            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13            JUDGE MAY:  We're in open session, Mr. Milosevic.

14            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   All right.  I will not be mentioning the witness's name.  However,

16    what we see on this tape makes it indisputable that several of them had

17    met in a private apartment, all of them from the same area, and they

18    agreed among themselves whom they would need, in terms of experts, to

19    organise Territorial Defence.  I therefore assume, Mr. MILAN BABIC, that it is

20    not in dispute.

21       A.   Right.

22       Q.   And you explained some time ago that since one of them was an

23    active-duty military man, you had agreed to ask for approval for him to

24    leave the active force of the army and help you out with the Territorial

25    Defence out there.  Do you distinguish between finding volunteers who

Page 13730

 1    would go out to help you and asking approval for them to leave the army in

 2    order to help you out, on one hand, and appointing your own commanders,

 3    either by me or by military authorities in Belgrade, on the other hand?

 4       A.   In this specific case, things went like this:  They found a man

 5    who was ready to go.  He was an active-duty officer.  The defence

 6    administration of Belgrade, that's what he called his institution where he

 7    was employed, and he said he needed your approval to go.  As for the rest

 8    of the developments, I described them as best I could.

 9       Q.   How could I possibly approve for someone to leave the defence

10    administration of Belgrade?  You said even on tape that I would be

11    supposed to ask the competent military authorities for approval for this

12    man to be put at your disposal.

13       A.   Approval for him to go, yes.  Use your clout to make it possible

14    for him to go, from the position that you held.

15            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the accused.

16            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   You said yourself that I was supposed to ask for this man to be

18    released from his duties.

19       A.   Yes.  We wanted him to be released from the army to help us

20    organise the Territorial Defence of SAO Krajina.

21       Q.   The idea seems one that pleases you, the idea of me approving

22    every single decision of yours.  Can you tell me how you made the

23    selection and appointments of individuals in the Territorial Defence and

24    later the Serbian army of Krajina?

25       A.   General Simovic said that it was you who decided that it should be

Page 13731

 1    General Djujic.

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters can't hear the accused.

 3            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   You mentioned he was a retired officer.

 5       A.   Correct.

 6       Q.   Rather than an active-duty officer.  So I suppose that no one from

 7    the military authorities, and even less civilian authorities, had to

 8    approve for a retired person to go to his homeland and help out in the

 9    organisation of Territorial Defence.

10       A.   Colonel Maksic was supposed to come to this staff of Territorial

11    Defence, with ten men, and help organise it.  However, only several men

12    came, with Colonel Kasim, and said they would make a phone call to

13    Belgrade, and said that you had decided it should be General Djujic.

14    Maksic also came with him, but he was not a commander.

15       Q.   These associates or colleagues of yours, whatever you called them,

16    say that it was you who decided on your own that it should be a retired

17    general, Ilija Djujic, who would do this job.  They say that what you're

18    saying is not correct.

19       A.   What is correct is what Simovic said, and then followed Djujic's

20    appointment.  And they said, the three officers who came, said they had

21    the decision of the federal secretary for National Defence.

22       Q.   For them to be relieved from their duties in the JNA in order to

23    help with the technical organisation of the TO in Krajina?

24       A.   They had approval to make up the staff of the TO of Krajina.

25       Q.   You say that at that meeting you heard from one of them, the one

Page 13732

 1    who was the leader among them, and I can't remember his name at the moment

 2    - you know it - you say you heard him say that he can gather ten officers

 3    and take them there in order to help you.

 4       A.   That's what Colonel Maksic said.

 5       Q.   You met with him in his own private apartment, and as fellow

 6    countrymen, people from the same home town, you came to an agreement

 7    without consulting anyone.

 8       A.   Colonel Maksic said that he came from Serbia proper.

 9       Q.   What did he say?

10       A.   He said he was from Serbia.

11       Q.   So what?

12       A.   Our homeland is Krajina.

13            JUDGE MAY:  Would both you of bear in mind the interpreters.

14            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   So in this private arrangement of yours, if somebody volunteered

16    to help you, then you construe it as his having to bear some sort of

17    responsibility or guilt?

18       A.   He was supposed to ask for a transfer.

19       Q.   Isn't it logical for an active-duty officer to have to ask for

20    approval from his superiors if he wanted to go there as a volunteer?  Did

21    he go there of his own will or did anyone force him?

22       A.   Yes, that is logical, and that is why we asked approval from you.

23       Q.   You didn't answer.  Did he volunteer or did somebody order him to

24    go?

25       A.   They said they had the decision from the federal secretary for

Page 13733

 1    defence, Veljko Kadijevic.

 2       Q.   You're not answering again.  Was he a volunteer?  Is that how he

 3    represented himself to you?

 4       A.   He offered himself as a volunteer, but they arrived with the

 5    appropriate decision from the federal secretary for defence, Veljko

 6    Kadijevic.

 7       Q.   So yes, they got approval to be released from active-duty service

 8    and help you out with the TO.  Do you know that half-truths are worse than

 9    lies, Mr. Croatia-061?

10            JUDGE MAY:  Not a question.  Yes.

11            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   I suppose it is not in dispute who commanded the Territorial

13    Defence of Krajina.

14       A.   The TO of Krajina was commanded by the superior commands in the

15    JNA in combat actions.

16       Q.   Isn't it true that the TO of Krajina was under the command of the

17    then president of Krajina?

18       A.   That Krajina did not have a president.  It had a Prime Minister,

19    who was supposed to be a civilian commander.

20       Q.   That's what I'm talking about.  Isn't that right?

21       A.   That's right.  That's how it should have been.  But that's not the

22    way it was.

23       Q.   That's what you're saying now.

24       A.   That's what it was at the time.

25       Q.   I believe we had cleared up that yesterday, especially in the

Page 13734












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Page 13735

 1    light of the assertions I made yesterday regarding your own role.

 2            JUDGE MAY:  No point going back over evidence given earlier.

 3            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I won't, in that case,

 4    address issues which will force us to go back into private session.

 5            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Please answer with precision:  Apart from the MUP of Krajina that

 7    were appointed by the bodies of Krajina and which consisted of members

 8    from Krajina, the state security of Krajina, Krajina had its own Red

 9    Berets as well that were known as the Red Berets of Krajina; is that true?

10       A.   I hadn't heard of the Red Berets of Krajina.  As for the MUP and

11    the DB in Krajina, I have spoken about that already.  At the beginning of

12    August, the government took a decision to abolish the service of state

13    security within the territory of SAO Krajina.  And as for MUP appointments

14    and operations, I've spoken about that already as well.

15       Q.   Very well.  To abolish the state security service sounds -- gives

16    one one impression when you put it that way and gives a completely

17    different impression if you tell the truth, and that is that you wanted to

18    make a distinction, to set up an organisation like those which exist in

19    many Western countries, to rename the state security into a security

20    agency.  Wasn't that so?

21       A.   The plan was to form a new agency, and it should have been under

22    the control of the government rather than the Ministry of the Interior and

23    the DB of Serbia.

24       Q.   Very well.  Leave the DB of Serbia.  You keep making up its

25    responsibilities over there.  Is it true that you did not abolish the

Page 13736

 1    service but you wanted to rename it into an agency for the security of

 2    Krajina, and you took a decision to that effect?

 3       A.   No.  The service of state security in the territory of Krajina was

 4    abolished, and subsequently an agency was to have been formed under the

 5    control of the government, but this was not done because it was not

 6    possible under the existing circumstances, and which I've already

 7    testified about.

 8       Q.   You were rather contradictory in discussing these matters, because

 9    you say that I controlled everything, that I had command over there.  Then

10    why would a parallel structure be necessary when I was in control?

11    Please, is it true that you've made up completely this parallel structure

12    out of fear?  Is that right or not, Mr. MILAN BABIC?

13       A.   First of all, the government needed to have its own intelligence

14    agency under its control rather than under the control of the DB of

15    Serbia.  Secondly, the parallel structure was as I have described it.  At

16    the top of that structure was the DB of Serbia, and above the DB of

17    Serbia, you.

18       Q.   But you were the person who took the decisions.  You shaped life

19    in Krajina.  You appointed the ministers, you appointed the heads of state

20    security, the Minister of Police, the Minister of Defence; the whole

21    organisation of life.  What has parallel structure got to do with it?

22       A.   I have been addressing these issues specifically.  If I need to go

23    into them again, I can.

24       Q.   Is it true that all those structures that I have listed - state

25    security, MUP, and the TO, the army of Krajina - they had a completely

Page 13737

 1    separate command structure in relation to Serbia and the Federal Republic

 2    of Yugoslavia?

 3       A.   The MUP in the Krajina was under the control of the DB of Serbia.

 4    That is under your control.  The army, the Serbian army in the Republic of

 5    Srpska Krajina, was under your control.  One of the ways I have already

 6    described, one of the ways in which this was done.  The Territorial

 7    Defence of Krajina was controlled by the JNA, that is, by you.  The DB in

 8    Krajina was formed first within the SUP, the Ministry of the Interior, and

 9    then it was abolished because you controlled it.  However, it continued to

10    operate.  The government did not set up its own separate service.

11       Q.   Very well.  Doesn't the following completely annul what you are

12    just saying, and doesn't it reveal your complete separation from what

13    you're saying?  On the 20th of August, 1991, you were the creator of

14    establishing a unified system of Territorial Defence of Krajina.

15            JUDGE MAY:  We'll go into private session.

16    [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

17            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

18            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   Very well.  On the 20th of August, 1991, you held a government

20    meeting of SAO Krajina.  You took the decision to establish a unified

21    system of Territorial Defence of Krajina, and you appointed as commanders

22    of the Territorial Defence in Kordun, Milo Dakic, and for the command of

23    the TO of Banija, Dusan Jovic.  Are those your decisions?  Is this true

24    what I'm saying?

25       A.   The decisions on appointments of Jovic and Dakic I think were

Page 13738

 1    taken in July 1991.

 2       Q.   And who took those decisions?  You are using the passive tense.

 3    Who took those decisions?

 4       A.   I did, in my capacity of Prime Minister, who also acted as Defence

 5    Minister as that position was not filled.

 6       Q.   Of course you are confirming that because there are documents to

 7    prove that.  Did I perhaps tell you to appoint those people?  Did I

 8    perhaps tell you to appoint yourself as commander of Territorial Defence?

 9    Did I tell you to take a decision?  And all those decisions that you took?

10       A.   Jovic was appointed in order to form a legal system of Territorial

11    Defence.

12       Q.   Why don't you answer my question?

13            JUDGE MAY:  Let the witness finish.

14            Now, what the accused has put to you is to challenge that he told

15    you to appoint a commander of Territorial Defence, to take a decision.

16    Now, you can answer that in your own time and in your own way.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was asked a specific

18    question about specific people at a specific time, and I'm going to answer

19    that in specific terms.  At the end of July, or the month of August, there

20    were quite a number of appointments, based on the regulations in force in

21    SAO Krajina, with the aim of establishing a unified system of Territorial

22    Defence of SAO Krajina which would be under the control of the government

23    of SAO Krajina.

24            At the end of September, the Main Staff of the Territorial Defence

25    of SAO Krajina was established and the commanders were appointed in the

Page 13739

 1    way I have already described.  There was Maksic, Djujic, and the decision

 2    of the federal secretary for National Defence that I referred to.  This

 3    was the period of September and the beginning of October.  It was in this

 4    way that the formation of the unified Territorial Defence was completed,

 5    but it was not placed under the command of the bodies of SAO Krajina or

 6    the government but under the competent commands of the JNA that existed

 7    within the territory of SAO Krajina.

 8            JUDGE MAY:  And the point that the accused makes, essentially, is

 9    that he had no part in those decisions; that was your decision and your

10    decision alone, and he was independent of it.  Now, what is your answer to

11    that?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My exclusive decision was the

13    appointment of Jovic and Dakic.  As for the appointment of the Main Staff

14    of the TO of SAO Krajina, the appointment of officers Vujaklija, Officer

15    Vujaklija, but from the appointment of the commander and the Main Staff of

16    the Territorial Defence of SAO Krajina, he had a decisive role in that

17    respect.  He decided about that.

18            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   I don't understand that.  Who decided about appointments?  Did you

20    proclaim yourself commander of the TO Krajina?

21       A.   Pursuant to the law on National Defence, which was implemented on

22    the 1st of August, 1991, the Prime Minister was ex officio the commander

23    of the Territorial Defence of Krajina.

24       Q.   So you personally were commander of the Territorial Defence of

25    Krajina.  Did I appoint you to that position?

Page 13740

 1       A.   You, together with General Simovic, Veljko Kadijevic and Adzic,

 2    appointed the Main Staff of the TO and the commander Djujic, the chief of

 3    staff, Colonel Kasum, the chief of communications, Vuletic.  That was your

 4    decision.  I subsequently and procedurally signed that decision as far as

 5    General Djujic is concerned.  So he had two appointments.  He had a

 6    decision of the federal Secretary of National Defence and a confirmation

 7    of that decision of the Prime Minister of Krajina, that is, myself.  So he

 8    had two appointments.  But the real one came from you, and the formal one

 9    from me.

10       Q.   Very well.  As I heard for the first time not today but these past

11    few days, the name of this General Djujic, and since you confirm that he

12    was a retired general, and these people of yours from Krajina say that you

13    arbitrarily appointed him to that position and that you treated him rather

14    badly --

15            JUDGE MAY:  I don't think we're going to get much further than

16    this.  We've been around this point quite a bit.  The witness has given

17    his explanation.  Yes.

18            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, for the references, the

19    decisions regarding Milan Dakic and Dusan Jovic, they were tab 117 and 118

20    of the Exhibit 352, and the decision in relation to Djujic, that's tab 69

21    of that same exhibit.

22            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   So we have the documents which show that you proclaimed yourself

24    commander of the Territorial Defence --

25            JUDGE MAY:  No, Mr. Milosevic.

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Page 13742

 1            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   -- and not only do we have the document --

 3            JUDGE MAY:  The witness has dealt with this.  He's explained the

 4    situation.  Now, there's a conflict in evidence, no doubt, or there will

 5    be or may be.  We hear what you say and the fact that you challenge it but

 6    he's given his explanation and he can't do any more, and it's a waste of

 7    time going over it again.

 8            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's the whole point:  What

 9    this witness of yours is claiming is in complete contradiction with the

10    documents in your possession.

11            JUDGE MAY:  Look, he's not our witness.  He's a Prosecution

12    witness.  Don't forget it.  Secondly, you've made the point over and over

13    again.  We have it.  We'll have to consider his evidence and the

14    documents.  Now, let's move on.

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's the problem.  I would like

16    here to establish that what he is claiming is in complete contradiction

17    with the documents that we have.

18            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   And your entire explanation is that you are some sort of a cloned

20    person, and as such you were carrying out orders from Belgrade.  Is that

21    so?  Is that your explanation?

22       A.   I don't understand the question.

23       Q.   Is that your explanation, that you actually weren't doing

24    anything; you were just carrying out orders from Belgrade?

25       A.   In specific cases, I'm giving a specific answer.  What specific

Page 13743

 1    matters are you referring to?

 2       Q.   I'm referring to everything.  According to everything that is

 3    known in the public, you constituted the greatest opposition to the

 4    policies of Belgrade.  Now you're claiming that you were working on the

 5    basis of instructions from Belgrade.  How can you explain such a

 6    contradiction?

 7       A.   I'm giving concrete answers to concrete questions.

 8       Q.   Well, for instance, I've been talking about the Territorial

 9    Defence now and about your decisions that you claim were mine.  I never

10    even heard of that what's-his-name, Dakic, or Jovic, or anyone else, any

11    of the other ones.  How could I have appointed them?

12       A.   I didn't say that you appointed Dakic and Jovic.  I said that you

13    appointed the Main Staff of SAO Krajina.

14       Q.   Who did I appoint to the Main Staff of the TO of Krajina?

15            JUDGE MAY:  We're going back over this point again.  The witness

16    has given his evidence about it.  Perhaps -- no.  We cannot waste time

17    going over the same point over and over again.  Now, we have it.  We have

18    the documentation.  We have the evidence.  We see the point you make.

19            But perhaps the witness could answer this for us:  What the

20    accused is suggesting is that you were in fact an opponent of Belgrade -

21    this is the way he puts it - and he says what you appear to be saying in

22    your evidence is that you were taking orders from them.  Now, it doesn't

23    matter about how that's put, but that's the general point that he's

24    making.  And what he's saying is that there is a contradiction in this.

25    Now, would you describe your position as taking orders from Belgrade?  How

Page 13744

 1    would you describe your relationship to Belgrade and to the accused in

 2    particular?

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I could summarise that in the

 4    briefest possible manner for the whole period that the question relates to

 5    would be that I was manipulated by Belgrade.  Maybe that would be closest

 6    to the truth.  But in specific cases, I responded with regard to political

 7    decisions, and I have described how I took those decisions under the

 8    influence of Belgrade and, personally, Slobodan Milosevic.  Regarding the

 9    self-determination of the Serbs in Krajina to remain in Yugoslavia, that

10    was under his influence.  It was under the influence of his explanation

11    that this was a just aim, a legal one, following his conviction that this

12    decision would be protected by the Yugoslav People's Army.

13            As for the formation of the Territorial Defence, I had the

14    initiative that an independent Territorial Defence be formed in Krajina

15    which would be under the command of the government or the authorities of

16    SAO Krajina.  However, that decision could not be implemented without the

17    support and approval of Belgrade, or rather, Slobodan Milosevic - that is

18    what I have already said - because the JNA was under his control, the

19    officers, the logistics, and everything else.  So support and assistance

20    was needed to realise this, and he extended that aid by assisting and

21    controlling that institution.

22            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   How?  How?  How did I establish my control?

24       A.   You allowed officers to go there, to be reassigned to the TO of

25    SAO Krajina, and you subordinated them to the appropriate commands of the

Page 13745

 1    JNA, that is, to yourself.

 2       Q.   Those were the officers which you yourself found privately as

 3    volunteers and asked that they be permitted to go to Krajina.

 4       A.   That was only one man, and he never came following an agreement

 5    because you had determined otherwise, and I had no choice in the matter,

 6    either to have a Territorial Defence staff or for that not to exist.  And

 7    under the given circumstances, I thought it was better to have whatever

 8    kind of staff was available rather than none at all.

 9       Q.   Well, a group came that you engaged yourself, and they came

10    according to your specifications.

11       A.   No.  Just one man came, and that man did not become the commander,

12    as we had agreed upon.

13       Q.   Well, you explained that that one man told you that he would bring

14    in another ten men, and because he didn't bring the ten men, that, I

15    assume, is a matter between you and him.

16       A.   But you didn't permit him to become the commander.  General

17    Simovic said, and I asked him why he wasn't appointed a commander, he said

18    that he was an alcoholic and that you yourself had appointed General

19    Djujic.

20       Q.   Simovic could not have told you that, that he was an alcoholic.  I

21    don't know that.  Perhaps Simovic might have known something along those

22    lines, whether somebody in the army was an alcoholic or not.  But that I

23    had appointed him, Simovic could not have told you any nonsense of that

24    kind.

25       A.   Simovic said, "We have decided, we have determined, that it be

Page 13746

 1    General Djujic," and I asked why not Maksic, and he said, "Because he's an

 2    alcoholic."  And ten of them didn't turn up, just three of them, and

 3    Maksic never became the commander, which means that you said that that man

 4    would be a fourth man.

 5       Q.   How, then, do you decide that I made the decision, that I

 6    appointed these men?

 7       A.   Well, I went to ask you for your permission.  I then called you up

 8    by telephone to ask whether the officers would be arriving.  You said they

 9    would be arriving the next day.  They didn't come the next day.  They came

10    five or six days later.

11       Q.   Well, I can only assume.  I can't quite remember details of that

12    kind, minor things, but I assume that you wanted the army to have those

13    people released as volunteers and sent to you.

14       A.   We asked that you should allow them to come, to help them --

15       Q.   To help them to come, you mean?

16       A.   Well, you had the power of decision-making.  You were able to

17    decide and give orders or influence General Kadijevic or Adzic, whoever,

18    who were those people's superiors, to allow them to come, and that was the

19    procedure.  That's why we went to see you.

20       Q.   As you know, I was not in a position to --

21            JUDGE MAY:  One at a time.

22            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   As you know, I was not able to order anything to either Kadijevic

24    or Adzic.  Now, on what grounds do you claim that I ordered --

25            JUDGE MAY:  No.  I think we have been through this enough.  I have

Page 13747

 1    allowed you to go on asking more questions.  The witness has told us his

 2    account.  Now, this argument is not assisting.  Move on to a new topic.

 3            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Is it true that the results of your arbitrariness and self-will

 5    was that in Knin - and in Knin you convened all the commanders who were in

 6    the area of the western reaches of Krajina, and among them was, for

 7    example, General Ratko Mladic, he was one of them - and that you called a

 8    meeting and asked them, demanded, with all the authority that a Prime

 9    Minister had, that the northern Dalmatian Corps should be called the

10    Dinarski Corps, as it was known in World War II, the Chetnik Corps, and

11    that they should change their insignia and place the Chetnik insignia on

12    their caps and that the first to stand up to this and oppose it was

13    General Ratko Mladic himself, and said that while he was the commander --

14            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Milosevic, this is no question.  Now, ask a

15    question.  It's no good making assertions.

16            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   Is it true that precisely as the result of your self-will, that

18    you convened the meeting and called for the changes that I have specified?

19       A.   No, that is not correct.  It's not true.

20       Q.   So all this is a lie, is it?  Fine.

21       A.   What you said is not correct.  It is not correct that there were

22    any decisions made as regards insignia and emblems, or what you were

23    saying.

24       Q.   All right.  All right.  I'm very satisfied with your answer when

25    you said that what I was saying was not true, was not correct.  I have

Page 13748

 1    enough witnesses to prove that you were not telling the truth.

 2            Now, tell me this:  As you were talking about the fact that these

 3    people from what you call the parallel structures and then you're not able

 4    to mention more than three names, having said that, did they sow fear

 5    among the people, did they threaten anybody, those people that had arrived

 6    into the area?

 7       A.   Who do you mean?  Who are you referring to?

 8       Q.   Well, you mentioned Stanisic, Frenki, Simatovic, and you even said

 9    that there was a man from my own security service, which is also a lie.

10    But the people who were there, you mentioned three of them, did they

11    threaten anybody?

12       A.   Franko Simatovic was at the head of DB operations and the police

13    around Lovrinac.  He made an armoured -- constructed an armoured train

14    which went into operation --

15       Q.   Mr. MILAN BABIC, that's not what I'm asking.  I'm not asking you about

16    that.  You say that your life had been threatened, your life was in

17    jeopardy, and that they issued orders over there.  How shall I put it?

18    Did they threaten anybody?  Did anybody threaten anybody, and if so, when

19    and how and where?  You said some people engaged in the liquidation of

20    persons and other conjured-up things.  Now, did these people threaten

21    anybody?

22       A.   I described the case of when I was threatened, and that prompted

23    me to call you up the next morning over the phone to ask you to withdraw

24    Frenki in Krajina.

25       Q.   And when were you threatened?  When did they threaten you?

Page 13749












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Page 13750

 1       A.   This was somewhere around the 8th or 9th of August, 1991, when

 2    Captain Dragan relinquished his command over his unit to Frenki, he handed

 3    it over to Frenki.  After that, 15 or 20 minutes later, some people

 4    followed me and went to Golubic, followed me to Golubic, which was the

 5    leader of the TO detachment.  They blocked the entrance.  They followed me

 6    and they said who was to be killed.  I escaped, and that night I was

 7    followed again and in the morning I phoned you up.

 8       Q.   So what you're saying is that they had come to kill you.

 9       A.   They -- these soldiers had received orders that somebody should be

10    killed and they started shouting who was to be killed and they followed

11    me.  After Vidovdan, St. Vitus Day in 1992, Goran Opacic, the head of that

12    special police unit, or band, or group of bandits as existed in Benkovac

13    in the house of Vlajko Lezajic, he said, "I'm going to kill you now,

14    Bishop."

15       Q.   What have I got to do with that?  Who is this Goran Opacic?

16       A.   Goran Opacic was a policeman under the command of Martic, the DB,

17    the state security, and your own command.

18       Q.   Who was Martic?  Was Martic the head of the Krajina police?  Was

19    he the Minister of Internal Affairs of Krajina?

20       A.   Martic was the Minister of the Interior --

21       Q.   And is Martic himself from Krajina?

22       A.   Martic is from Knin.

23       Q.   What about this man Opacic?  Is he from Krajina as well?

24       A.   He's from Benkovac.

25       Q.   All right, well, is that Krajina?  Is Benkovac in Krajina?

Page 13751

 1       A.   It used to be.

 2       Q.   Well, this third man, the one you mentioned, Lezajic, is he from

 3    Krajina too?

 4       A.   He's from Benkovac.

 5       Q.   Yes, that's right.  So what have I got to do with your quarrels

 6    with Martic, Lezajic, Opacic, and all the rest and the threats you made to

 7    each other, or the swearing that went on between you?  What's that got to

 8    do with me or Serbia?

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer, and

10    could the speakers be asked to slow down, please.

11            JUDGE MAY:  I'm stopping you both.  One answer was lost, and

12    there's a request from the interpreters for both of you to slow down, and

13    I repeat that.  There's no point giving evidence or asking questions if it

14    can't be interpreted.  So would you bear it in mind, please.

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Fine.  I don't know what

16    wasn't interpreted because I wasn't following the transcript.  Otherwise,

17    you have very good interpreters, and I do believe that they have

18    interpreted the substance of what was said.

19            But let's move on back into open session now, because it's quite

20    nonsensical to go into these fabrications and nebulous ideas in a private

21    session; who quarreled with whom, et cetera, et cetera, who said something

22    to somebody else in somebody else's house.

23                          [Open session]

24            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

25            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13752

 1       Q.   You know that the citizens from the diaspora collected money

 2    during all those war years and they assisted the Serbs in Krajina.  I'm

 3    sure you're aware of that.  I have here just one example of that.  It

 4    dates to the end of 1994, when a sum of money had been collected, and you

 5    can take a look at this list.  These are people who live in America for

 6    the most part, or rather, American citizens.  Some people gave 20 dollars,

 7    others gave 2.000 dollars, one person gave 500 dollars, another might have

 8    given a thousand dollars.  But anyway, a sum was collected and the total

 9    was 169.417 dollars in that one assistance campaign and one sum that was

10    raised for you.  169.417 US dollars was the sum that was collected and

11    sent to you.  Do you remember that?  That was in 1994.  You can take a

12    look at this list of donors, and you'll be able to see.  Some people gave

13    50, others gave 4.000, some gave 20, some gave 200.  But there were many

14    of them.  They're not in order, alphabetical order or numerical order.

15    There are four and a half pages of names.  Do you remember that?

16       A.   I remember that the Serbs from the diaspora did send assistance in

17    money to Krajina, and this began as early on as 1990.  First of all, this

18    collection was made for Serb radio television in Knin, then there were

19    other collection drives, and there was even some communication equipment

20    that was sent into the region, but the DB of Serbia seized it at the

21    airport in Belgrade --

22       Q.   I'm not asking you -- please, I'm not asking you about any

23    communication devices that were dispatched.  Now, this is your specialty;

24    you're not answering the questions that I'm asking you, and we're seeing

25    through that, Mr. MILAN BABIC.  What I'm asking you is this, and I want a yes or

Page 13753

 1    no answer:  The representatives of these citizens who collected these

 2    169.000 dollars, 169,417 US dollars was the sum that had been collected,

 3    and these citizens claimed that they personally handed over that sum of

 4    money to you, that the money was never paid into either the budget of the

 5    municipality of the SAO of Krajina or any other institution, for that

 6    matter.

 7       A.   I never received the 169.000 dollars personally.  It was never

 8    handed over to me.

 9       Q.   And do you know that it was precisely because they had handed the

10    money over to you personally that proceedings were brought against you;

11    however, these court proceedings were closed to the public because of the

12    post and position you held?  Do you know about these legal proceedings

13    that were taken because of the appropriation of these 169.417 US dollars?

14       A.   No, I do not.

15       Q.   Does the name Vladimir Velebit, an inspector, mean anything to

16    you, who headed those legal proceedings and the investigation undertaken

17    because of the fact that you had appropriated this money?

18       A.   I do not.

19       Q.   And do you know that the proceedings led by this inspector named

20    Vladimir Velebit, who conducted the embezzlement procedures was killed in

21    Krajina in a way that was never found out how?

22       A.   No, I do not.

23       Q.   Fine.  Great.  As we're on the subject of finances, and you're

24    talking off the bat about finances, quite incorrectly, do you happen to

25    know the following:  What were the contributions, or rather, donations,

Page 13754

 1    that were made by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to the budget of the

 2    Republic of the Serbian Krajina?  Quite officially, official figures,

 3    public figures, and quite legally and lawfully.

 4       A.   I can't remember the exact figure, but there are facts and figures

 5    about that question.

 6       Q.   Well, you have made statements here and observations as to some

 7    shady dealings.  Do you know, for example, that with the budget of Krajina

 8    for 1992, the year 1992, all the social welfare and protection, health

 9    protection, education grants, et cetera, and allowances, amounted to

10    1.666.000 Krajina dinars, or 5 per cent of the overall total budget of the

11    Republic of the RSK, for instance?  And at the same time --

12            JUDGE MAY:  One thing at a time.  Let the witness deal with this

13    question.

14            Can you assist as to that or not?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The largest portion of the budget

16    for Krajina was allocated for military purposes.

17            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   You're once again answering a question that I never asked you.

19    I'm not asking you that.

20       A.   Well, you enumerated all those facts.

21       Q.   You're answering a question I didn't ask you about.  I know you

22    have received your instructions and you are following the lesson you have

23    learnt --

24            JUDGE MAY:  Now, Mr. Milosevic, that's a totally improper comment,

25    and you know it.  It cuts no ice at all for you to make these sort of

Page 13755

 1    comments.  Now, the question that was asked was whether --

 2            THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

 3            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment.  The question that was asked was the 5

 4    per cent for those amounts.  Can you help?  If you can't help, just say

 5    so.  You've told us that most went on military expenditure.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The figures I know date to 1995, and

 7    the Krajina had about 30.000 pensioners, that it had several thousand

 8    health workers.  You mentioned something about the health care system.

 9    That means that these were the recipients of those funds for those

10    purposes, allocated to those purposes.  Now, what the exact sum was, I

11    can't say, I can't express it in figures.

12            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   Mr. Croatia MILAN BABIC, had have you read the epic Gorski Vijenac, The

14    Mountain Wreath?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Well, do you recall the verse by Njegos, the author, which says

17    that fear tarnishes one's face, the face of a man?

18       A.   Well, I know many portions and verses from The Mountain Wreath by

19    heart.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  That a man's honour is tarnished, interpreter's

21    correction.

22            JUDGE MAY:  We've had enough of the literary excursion.  Let us

23    move on.

24            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   There were not 30.000 pensioners in Krajina, Mr. MILAN BABIC.  You

Page 13756












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Page 13757

 1    ignore that because you did not deal in public affairs.  You rather

 2    paraded in uniforms and took credit that didn't belong to you.  There were

 3    50.000 pensioners in Krajina.  And in your budget, you had 5 per cent of

 4    funds for all those needs.  And Yugoslavia, for instance, in 1993, gave

 5    14.8 per cent - that is, almost 15 per cent - of your budget for those

 6    purposes: Health care, education, veterans, and the disabled.  We have

 7    this data.

 8       A.   Which year did you say?

 9       Q.   1993.  Veterans, health care, and other allowances,

10    154.249.841.991 dinars, which is 14.8 per cent of the total budget of

11    Krajina for 1993.  You even --

12       A.   I was not in the government then.  If you ask me about 1994,

13    1995 --

14       Q.   You have no clue.  These --

15            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Milosevic, it is not fair to put a string of

16    figures to a witness and then claim he has no clue, and you know it.  Now,

17    if you want to cross-examine, you must do so fairly and properly, or it

18    will be stopped.  Now, have you got some figures to put in front of him?

19    Try and do it fairly so he has the chance to answer, instead of just

20    reeling them off.  Have you got some figures that you can put in front of

21    him to substantiate what you're saying?

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May.  I will not

23    squander my time quoting all the figures, but in view of his job, or jobs,

24    he should be aware of these figures, at least approximately.

25            JUDGE MAY:  [Previous translation continues]... now, let's move

Page 13758

 1    on.  You can either cross-examine him properly by putting the documents in

 2    front of him and asking him about them - it's not a memory test - or we'll

 3    go on to something else.

 4            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   Let me ask you, then, since he doesn't have a memory, he says he

 6    has a visual one, and this is easy to remember visually if you look at

 7    figures, but he doesn't know that, of course.  Do you know how much aid,

 8    how many thousands of barges with oil, sugar, staple foods, medicines, and

 9    other things, trailers, came to Krajina from Serbia over all these years?

10       A.   Krajina could not have survived without Serbia's help.  That's

11    obvious.

12       Q.   How many thousands of trailers arrived to Krajina from Serbia over

13    those years?

14       A.   I don't know how many thousands.  All I know is that we depended

15    on Serbia.

16       Q.   Why are you smirking here, then, and answering questions of the

17    lady from the opposite side related to the intercept, the intercepted

18    conversation between Karadzic and Kertes about flour, oil, blankets?  Why

19    do you laugh and why do you say that those were code-names for weapons and

20    ammunition?

21            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

22       A.   Well, I read it as a very mildly coded conversation, very mildly.

23            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   All right, then.  What terms were then used for blankets, flour,

25    oil, sugar, medicines, and all the other things that we sent as aid to

Page 13759

 1    you?  If "flour" was used as a term for ammunition, what term was used to

 2    denote flour proper?  Let me learn something from you if I can.

 3       A.   Well, flour was called flour.  What else was mentioned in that

 4    intercept?  Batteries, HDZ will be receiving batteries.  It is quite clear

 5    that it is a mildly coded conversation for weapons.

 6       Q.   Well, "flour" means sometimes flour, sometimes it means weapons.

 7       A.   Well, I never heard about Kertes sending flour to the HDZ.

 8       Q.   There is no mention of flour transports to the HDZ in that

 9    intercept.

10       A.   There are references to lights out, to batteries, to other things.

11       Q.   In Yugoslavia, Vojvodina is the bread basket of the country and

12    probably the greatest bread basket in the Balkans, and they even talk

13    about the sending of supplies which are soon going to expire because they

14    would be getting new ones, and most of the stuff was sent from the

15    so-called food reserves.

16       A.   Well, because Kertes was the head of that -- I'm not aware of

17    Kertes being involved in that.

18       Q.   I was never head of the commodity reserves directorate.

19       A.   I didn't say that you were.

20       Q.   Well, according to you, I was head of everything in Yugoslavia,

21    and if anybody ran over a pedestrian in the street, it's probably my

22    fault.

23       A.   I know that you were Kertes's boss.

24       Q.   I was Kertes's boss, but I was not your boss.  And if I had been

25    your boss, you would not have done what you did.  And is it correct that

Page 13760

 1    with this assertion of Croatia in 1990 and 1991, Croatia also interrupted

 2    all payments and payment transactions towards the area populated by Serbs

 3    and that there it was practically impossible to make a payment to the

 4    screw factory which you mentioned and for which you came to me to ask for

 5    assistance?  They were unable to operate; is that correct?

 6       A.   You have to make one distinction here.  One thing here is that the

 7    Croatian government, in spring 1991, blocked and isolated from the payment

 8    system these areas, and in 1991, the giro accounts of certain factories

 9    were blocked, were frozen.  For instance, the Tvik factory had its account

10    frozen because of a 40-million debt.  Certain accounts were frozen by the

11    Croatian government because of debts, and also in the case of some

12    enterprises, such as Splitvica, because they were politically in bad

13    order.  And payment transactions completely ceased in May 1991, in

14    Krajina, and Krajina was no longer able to be involved in the payment

15    system through the Croatian SDK.

16       Q.   Is it clear to you that the Republic of Serbian Krajina, facing

17    this problem, embarked upon creating its own payment system in order to be

18    able to function as an economic entity?  Is that correct?

19       A.   Yes.  First we started with the payments system, whereas the

20    banking system of Krajina remained within the economic territory of your

21    Yugoslavia, in order to survive economically.  That's right.

22       Q.   Well, you are too susceptible to the inertia of answering in the

23    negative to every question of mine, even those questions which seem

24    favourable to you.  Do you know that Yugoslavia had its own system of

25    payments transactions?

Page 13761

 1       A.   As of 1992, of course.  The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia did

 2    have its own payment system.

 3       Q.   Payments transactions were effected through the social accountancy

 4    service, the SDK, although in other countries this is done through banks,

 5    and it was even our intention to change the system and replace the SDK by

 6    banks.

 7       A.   I heard from experts that according to plans for the reform of the

 8    SDK, the SDK was supposed to be brought under the umbrella of the National

 9    Bank of Yugoslavia.  Several years were necessary for this plan to be

10    effected.  The plan was to abolish the service for payment transactions

11    within the National Bank of Yugoslavia and hand it over to specialised

12    services.  I don't know what was the situation at the time we are talking

13    about and at what stage the implementation of the plan was.

14       Q.   You should refrain from incorrect assumptions.  Is it true that

15    for the purposes of enabling payments to be made to the Krajina, special

16    accounts were opened in the SDK, in the Republic of Krajina?

17       A.   After the 16th of May, 1991, the social accountancy service of the

18    SAO Krajina was established, and all participants in the payment system

19    opened their accounts with that service.  In fact, they had accounts

20    before, but they were not integrated.  That service was integrated with

21    the SDK of Serbia through Belgrade.

22       Q.   Here we come back to that claim of yours, probably because you

23    don't understand this completely.  But all accounts were run through the

24    SDK of Krajina, whereas the processing of payment orders was done in

25    Yugoslavia by the service with which a contract on the extension of

Page 13762

 1    services was signed for that purpose, because you were not able to tackle

 2    the technical aspect of the job.  And this was done by branch offices in

 3    Sombor, Zemun, and Belgrade.

 4       A.   I know about that.  This was done by branch office 6 in Belgrade,

 5    and I know that before that, enterprises from Krajina opened duplicate

 6    accounts in the branch office in Belgrade.  How that technically operated,

 7    who processed payment orders, who signed them, is a matter of technique

 8    and method.  I don't know that.

 9       Q.   Do you know, for instance, that the Republic of Serbian Krajina

10    set up its own payments operation service and opened branch offices in

11    Knin, Glina, Petrinja, Vukovar, Beli Manastir?  Do you know about that?

12       A.   Of course I know.  We were actively working on setting up that

13    system.

14       Q.   Do you know that your SDK had a contract with SDK Novi Belgrade

15    and Sombor for the processing of those payments orders?

16       A.   That was a way of integrating the system, because the system

17    itself would mean nothing if it had not been integrated with the system of

18    Yugoslavia.  It would have been just an isolated SDK system of Krajina,

19    and it would have been stifled.

20       Q.   Do you know that within Krajina such a system can operate, and

21    outside the SAO Krajina, it can operate through any payments institution

22    or bank, be it in Belgrade, New York, Geneva, or Milan?  It doesn't

23    matter.  Payments transactions are effected with entities with whom you

24    have deals.

25       A.   The financial authorities in Yugoslavia resolved this in the way

Page 13763

 1    which was favourable to Krajina, bypassing Croatia.  It was done through

 2    the FRY SDK system.  That's the reason why the SDK of Krajina was

 3    integrated with the payment system of Yugoslavia.

 4       Q.   I just explained in which way it was integrated, but let's not

 5    waste time.

 6            Is it true that on the 14th of July, 1992, the National Bank of

 7    Krajina was set up, that the so-called Krajina dinar was introduced, that

 8    the banking system was built up and completely equipped to function, both

 9    the payment system and the banking system of Krajina?

10       A.   Correct.

11       Q.   And the payment system, with the banking system of Krajina,

12    cooperated with its counterparts in Yugoslavia, exclusively on the basis

13    of the relevant regulations.

14       A.   It functioned as a component part of the unified system of

15    Yugoslavia.

16       Q.   I just explained to you that it is not the way you are describing

17    it.  But since you seem to have the need to continue claiming the

18    opposite --

19       A.   We needed --

20            JUDGE MAY:  He's entitled -- [Previous translation continues]...

21    You may not like it, but he's entitled to give it.  Your comment is of no

22    assistance.  Now, anything else you want to ask him?

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are right, Mr. May; the witness

24    has the right not to know something.  But he doesn't have the right to

25    lie.

Page 13764












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Page 13765

 1            JUDGE MAY:  That's a matter for us to determine, between what you

 2    assert and the evidence he gives.

 3            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Do you know that until the budget of SAO Krajina was decided in

 5    1992, the needs of municipalities were being met, among other things, from

 6    the production and processing of oil?

 7       A.   The production of oil was located in the Mirkovci municipality.

 8    Other municipalities did not have this amenity for filling their budgets.

 9       Q.   Do you know that as far as this production is concerned, it did

10    not belong to the Mirkovci municipality; it belonged to the whole of

11    Krajina?

12       A.   That's true.  You were talking about municipalities, though.

13       Q.   I had two things in mind:  One were municipal budgets, and another

14    thing was the financing of the Krajina budget from its own revenues,

15    including revenues from oil production.  Are you aware of that?

16       A.   The budget was filled from turnover tax on sales of oil and oil

17    derivatives.

18       Q.   Since you presented a number of false pieces of information here,

19    including that Stanisic, Kertes, and others appropriated funds from oil

20    revenues, I have a disclaimer from Mikelic, who claims exactly the

21    opposite.  He says as follows:

22            "It never happened, in all the time that I was Prime Minister of

23    the Republic of Serbian Krajina, that I, with Jovica Stanisic and Mihalj

24    Kertes, ever had a conversation regarding the sale of oil and oil

25    derivatives in Mirkovci, let alone having a joint venture with them for

Page 13766

 1    sale of oil to the refinery in Pancevo.  If the witness had known about

 2    such things, such serious offences, how is it possible that he did not

 3    present them at the Assembly of Serbian Krajina --"

 4            JUDGE MAY:  We don't want the comments of your various

 5    correspondents.  What you can put to the witness is that he is not right

 6    when he asserts there was this conversation about oil derivatives.

 7            Now, you've heard that, Witness MILAN BABIC.  It's suggested that that

 8    conversation never took place, there was no joint venture.  What is your

 9    answer to that?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I had several reports

11    regarding the distribution of oil derivatives, and when I spoke about

12    that, I was referring to the situation in 1994 and 1995.  I heard, before

13    that, that control over oil sources was in the hands of Mihalj Kertes,

14    that he had a unit of his over there.  I first heard that in Ilok

15    Slavonia, he had a unit called Red Berets --

16            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   Who had a unit?  Excuse me.  I didn't hear it.

18            JUDGE MAY:  Let him finish.

19       A.   And that his men also controlled Djeletovci.  That is a region

20    where oil was being pumped near Mirkovci.  Secondly, after the

21    introduction of sanctions, the imposition of sanctions, after they were

22    published and, to be more precise, the blockade, actually, towards

23    Republika Srpska, and similarly also towards the Republic of Srpska

24    Krajina, the trade in oil derivatives, or rather, the transit of oil

25    derivatives, was under the control of international observers.  To avoid

Page 13767

 1    the control of international observers, the following was done, to bypass

 2    their control.  I know very well that several times at government sessions

 3    chaired by Mikelic there was a discussion on the number of cisterns and

 4    so-called "arnjevi," which was an expression used to camouflage the tanks

 5    so that they wouldn't be spotted by planes overflying the territory of

 6    Bosnia and Herzegovina and to not be noticed by the observers at border

 7    crossings.  And I had two reports.  One report came from people in

 8    Slavonia, that oil passed partially through the woods north of Sremska

 9    Raca, upstream, along the Sava River, and the other route was these

10    camouflaged oil trucks used country roads to reach the bridge connecting

11    the two Racas on the Sava River, and in that way they bypassed

12    international control.

13            Thirdly, I think this was a conversation sometime in April 1995,

14    in the villa in Boticevo Street, attended by several participants, among

15    them President Milosevic, Sokolovic, Stanisic, Badza, Mikelic, and there

16    was a discussion there about oil and this problem.  At that point in time,

17    I didn't quite understand the reasons why this was a problem.  I realised

18    it was a problem when Mikelic turned up late.

19            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the answer be shorter.

20            JUDGE MAY:  Let him finish.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mikelic was late to the meeting, and

22    in fear sort of, he asked, "What happened, what happened?" as if he was

23    afraid.  I didn't realise anything special had happened.  There was a

24    discussion about football.  I was a fan of Partizan and he of Zvezda.

25            JUDGE MAY:  If you can finish that.

Page 13768

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That meeting did take place, Your

 2    Honour, in April 1995.

 3            Also, in May 1995, regarding the same subject, Stanisic and

 4    Karadzic mentioned Boro Mikelic in Bijeljina.  I think I've already

 5    testified about that, and if necessary, I can repeat what I said.

 6            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   I don't understand anything, anything of what you've just said.

 8    Here is what he says:   The production -- Is this true, please?  That is

 9    my question to you.  He says that the production of crude oil was in

10    Djeletovci, in Mirkovci municipality, and processing was done in the oil

11    refinery in Pancevo.  After processing in Pancevo, the distribution of oil

12    derivatives was carried out through the company Nik Mirkovci and then the

13    derivatives were directed towards public enterprises: Nik Mirkovci, Nik

14    Vukovar, Nik Dvor na Uni, and Nik Knin.  So four public companies.

15    Through these branch companies, the oil derivatives --

16            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Milosevic, let the witness answer you.  You've put

17    a series of assertions about where the processing was done and the like of

18    it.

19            Now, Witness, it's put to you, first of all, the processing was

20    done in Pancevo.  Do you agree with that?

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.  It was pumped in

22    Djeletovci, in two ways, using the normal technology.  The processing was

23    in Pancevo.

24            JUDGE MAY:  It's suggested the distribution was carried out

25    through various -- through a company Nik Mirkovci, and directed towards

Page 13769

 1    various public enterprises.  Is that right?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the territory of Krajina, yes.

 3            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

 4            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   So for the needs of agriculture, industry, the army of the

 6    Republic of Srpska Krajina, and for sale at petrol stations in Krajina; is

 7    that right?  Sale to the public.

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Is it true that the -- a certain percentage of oil derivatives,

10    every tonne produced, processed, and then returned to Krajina, that these

11    accounts were established at every government session regarding the needs

12    that have just been listed, that a balance was made every month of oil

13    derivatives at government sessions of Krajina?

14       A.   For the territory of Krajina, yes.  From regular production.  I

15    wanted to say that there was also so-called extraordinary production.

16       Q.   I am really unable to fathom what you have just said, because it

17    follows from this that Mikelic, who was Prime Minister at the time you are

18    talking about, he says that the balances were made at government sessions

19    monthly, that oil was distributed throughout Krajina for all these needs -

20    you confirmed that - and now you are saying that there was some

21    extraordinary production.  What are you talking about?

22       A.   I can't explain it technologically, but these people from Mirkovci

23    explained to me that regular technological procedures implies pumping oil,

24    injecting water, to maintain the stability of the soil.  But there was

25    another way of faster pumping without injecting water, something like

Page 13770

 1    that.  I can't be very specific about this.  So in this way, there were

 2    additional quantities of oil.

 3            What I testified about was the problem between determining the

 4    quotas for Krajina and Republika Srpska, namely, the method in which

 5    certain debts were balanced out between Mikelic and Karadzic was the

 6    disappearance of oil tankers passing through the Republic of -- Republika

 7    Srpska, and this was a discussion that we had at government meetings.

 8    Certain quantities of oil derivatives designated for Srpska Krajina did

 9    not arrive in Krajina, and Mikelic explained this, that Karadzic was

10    taking them from him as they passed through the territory of Republika

11    Srpska.  So this was one of the incidents and disagreements with Karadzic

12    that I am aware of.

13       Q.   What has that got to do with Serbia, whether Mikelic and Karadzic

14    had a dispute over a particular oil tank?  And what has Karadzic got to do

15    if an oil tank disappeared in Republika Srpska?  Are you saying that

16    Karadzic stole an oil tank?

17       A.   This was a dispute between Stanisic and Mikelic, and this was a

18    dispute that was discussed at your offices.

19       Q.   You really believe that the state security of Serbia would address

20    a dispute between Mikelic and Karadzic regarding an oil cistern?

21            JUDGE MAY:  One moment.  This will be the last answer and then

22    we'll adjourn.

23            Would you deal with that, please.

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, what was the -- our last

25    question?

Page 13771












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Page 13772

 1            JUDGE MAY:  You were asked about your belief.  Do you believe the

 2    state security of Serbia would address a dispute between Mikelic and

 3    Karadzic concerning an oil cistern?  Now, you can give an answer to that,

 4    if you can.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that that is what happened.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  We'll adjourn now.  20 minutes, please.

 7                          --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 8                          --- Upon commencing at 10.56 a.m.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  Now, we have, I understand, an excerpt from the last

10    part of the interview which was played.  We'll ask the registrar to give

11    it a number.

12            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will be marked Defence Exhibit

13    57B, under seal.

14            JUDGE MAY:  There's also, I see on the desk, the collection, the

15    list of the collection, 69.000 dollars, or 169.000, I forget the precise

16    amount.  Do you want this exhibited, Mr. Milosevic?  Yes.

17            Give it an exhibit number, please.

18                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19            JUDGE MAY:  No, there's no reason why it should be under seal.  It

20    can be open.

21            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will be Defence Exhibit 63.

22            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Let's finish the question of oil.  The Ministry of Energy and the

25    man in charge or responsible for oil was Milivoj Kricka, the Minister of

Page 13773

 1    Energy; is that right?

 2       A.   In Borislav Mikelic's government, yes.

 3       Q.   But you're talking about that period, aren't you, when you claim

 4    what you allege happened?  Do you know that Milivoj Kricka, the Minister

 5    of Energy, is also saying that you're not telling the truth?

 6       A.   I don't know what Kricka, is saying, but I do know that Kricka

 7    was drilling the Adriatic oil pipeline, or the Yugoslav pipeline, as it

 8    was known, in the area of Banija or Kordun before that pipeline in 1995

 9    was to be set in operation in order to exhaust the oil reserves that

10    existed.

11       Q.   I see.  So you're now accusing the Minister of Energy for drilling

12    the pipeline.

13       A.   No.  That was Mikelic's decision, and his decision, and many

14    people agreed with that.

15       Q.   So you didn't agree, of course.

16       A.   I didn't mind.  It wasn't part of my responsibility.  But if that

17    was useful for Krajina, I agreed.

18       Q.   Very well, then.  Since you have such a critical attitude towards

19    Mikelic's government, and him personally, are you aware that over an

20    eight-month period of this government headed by Borislav Mikelic, that you

21    describe in this way, industrial production went up by all of 26 per cent,

22    and agricultural production marked an increase of 35 per cent?  And the

23    results were such that material reserves went up seven times over, and

24    employed figures increased by 23.000 workers, which, for the conditions in

25    Krajina, was a great deal.  And also, it became possible in May to start

Page 13774

 1    paying out salaries to employees in public service, and these salaries had

 2    been delayed also for the pensioners, members of the army, the police of

 3    the Republic of Srpska Krajina, all this thanks to a stabilisation of

 4    economic conditions as a result of the efforts invested by this

 5    government.  Are you aware of this?

 6       A.   It is true that the government headed by Borislav Mikelic did

 7    achieve a lot and produced positive results in terms of stabilisation of

 8    economic and overall social life in the Republic of Srpska Krajina,

 9    especially so in the second half of 1994 and the beginning of 1995.

10       Q.   And is it true that one of the -- that the priorities of this

11    government headed by Mikelic was the implementation of the Zagreb Peace

12    Agreement, signed on the 29th of November, 1994, in the embassy of Russia,

13    in Belgrade -- in Zagreb, sorry, and signed by Admiral Rakic, who was

14    Minister of Defence of the Republic Srpska Krajina, and General Mile

15    Novakovic, upon authority of Milan Martic, president of the Republic of

16    Srpska Krajina?

17       A.   Would you please repeat that?  I think you mentioned a number of

18    things just then.

19       Q.   My question was whether it is true that one of the top priorities

20    of that government headed by Mikelic was the implementation of the Zagreb

21    Peace Agreement, and I mentioned, and I identified the people involved.

22       A.   You mentioned two agreements, one from November 1994, which was an

23    agreement with the Croatian government on the normalisation of economic

24    relations in certain areas, which were listed specifically, that is,

25    traffic, oil, electricity, water supply, and railway traffic.  And before

Page 13775

 1    that, there was another agreement that you mentioned, and that was an

 2    agreement on a ceasefire, from March 1994, signed by the persons you

 3    named.  I don't know exactly, but that agreement was later confirmed by

 4    the Assembly.

 5       Q.   That's right.  But I also assume that you will not deny that those

 6    two agreements were linked together and that that was part of the

 7    normalisation of relations: First a ceasefire, followed by the

 8    establishment of economic relations.  So I'm asking you:  Is it true that

 9    a negotiating team was formed to discuss economic issues with Croatia, and

10    before those economic negotiations with Croatia and joint activities, this

11    agreement on a ceasefire was implemented?

12       A.   The ceasefire agreement was complied with.  There were reports of

13    isolated incidents, but generally it was observed.  Secondly, the talks on

14    economic relations with Croatia between representatives of the government

15    of Krajina and representatives of the Croatian government started in

16    August, after you had approved those talks to begin in June, and those

17    talks ended partly with the agreement in November relating to certain

18    economic issues.

19       Q.   And do you remember that those negotiations were conducted with

20    the participation - I would call it active participation and direct

21    involvement - of international mediators: David Owen and Thorwald

22    Stoltenberg and their associates, such as Kai Eide and others, and that

23    priorities were established, and those were the opening to traffic of the

24    Belgrade-Zagreb highway, the Yugoslav oil pipeline, the long-distance

25    electricity cables, the water supply system, and then other economic

Page 13776

 1    matters and projects, such as the project to set up a joint oil company,

 2    and others?  Do you remember that?

 3       A.   In my previous answer, I said what the agreement covered, and it

 4    is true that the negotiations started also through the mediation of

 5    international mediators that you have mentioned.

 6       Q.   Tell me now:  Is it true that when final agreement was reached on

 7    all matters on which economic negotiations were conducted, that you

 8    refused to go to Zagreb because it was your estimate that your rating

 9    would go down in Krajina and, to tell you the truth, among Serbs outside

10    of Krajina as well?  Was that right or not?

11       A.   As far as I know, the agreement was signed in Knin, in the

12    headquarters of the peace forces for Sector South.

13       Q.   Again you're answering a question that I did not put to you.

14            JUDGE MAY:  We'll go into private session to deal with this.

15   [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

16            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

17            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

18            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   I didn't ask you where the agreement was signed.  I'm talking

20    about the negotiations which were conducted and which you refused to go to

21    because you felt your rating would go down, not only in Krajina but among

22    Serbs in other parts - in Republika Srpska and in Serbia - if you appear

23    there at those negotiations in Zagreb.

24        A.   I had agreed the beginning of those negotiations with Mikelic,

25    with Sarinic and Pasalic, who participated on behalf of the Croatian

Page 13777

 1    government, and I took part in all those -- all the negotiations held in

 2    Knin.  I didn't go to Zagreb.  But commissions that had been formed for

 3    certain matters also took part in those negotiations.  For the oil

 4    pipeline, for instance, electricity, water, the highway.

 5       Q.   But my question was, and you've now partially answered it, that

 6    you didn't go to Zagreb; you refused to go to Zagreb to attend those

 7    negotiations so that your rating would not go down.  I didn't ask you

 8    about anything else.  Is it true that the negotiations on economic

 9    relations with the mediation of Owen and Stoltenberg, economic relations

10    between Krajina and Croatia went on for all of three months, and that you

11    were constantly obstructing them, that they were almost completed when, at

12    a session of the government of Republika Srpska Krajina in Vukovar, on the

13    18th of November, 1994, you called in question all the elements of the

14    agreement, saying that this would mean economic dependence on Croatia,

15    something you could not accept?  Was that how it was?

16       A.   The following was true:  I took a very active part in those

17    negotiations.  I had a very clear position regarding the linking up of the

18    economics, the energy system, the oil pipeline, the water supply system,

19    and transportation, which were the subject of the agreement.  And I

20    defended my position publicly and emphatically, also in the Assembly and

21    elsewhere.  But I did accept the final agreement.  I agreed with it.  And

22    that agreement was approved by the government, of which I was a member,

23    and the Assembly in which there were deputies from my party.  The

24    agreement, such as it was reached at the end, I agreed with it; but during

25    the negotiation, I sharply defended my positions and presented my views

Page 13778












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Page 13779

 1    about it.

 2       Q.   And what were those positions that you upheld during those

 3    negotiations?  Will you tell us?

 4       A.   Well, for example, with regard to the power system, electricity,

 5    and the network that would link up the power system in Krajina and in

 6    Croatia.  That was one point.  And I insisted that it could be linked up

 7    with a 110-kilowatt power, because it can be measured.  The technicians

 8    explained this to me, a professional explained it to me, and they said

 9    that with that voltage, one was able to measure the current, the flow of

10    electricity.  As for the waterworks, I demanded that water supplies be

11    determined which were from the source the Obrovac in Krajina, and the

12    water quotas, which would be allotted to the municipalities of Benkovac

13    and the Zadar municipality in Croatia.  So I asked that this be precisely

14    defined, because it was an area that was subject to drought very

15    frequently, which meant that the water supply would drop off.  And if we

16    determined a quantity of water for the Zadar municipality, or Croatia,

17    then during the drought, there would be a water shortage for Obrovac and

18    Benkovac.  So those were the details that were elaborated and I wanted the

19    agreement to reflect those details.

20       Q.   So you did not want to have water allowed for Croatia?

21       A.   No, quite the contrary.  I asked that the water supply system,

22    which was common for Obrovac, Benkovac, and Zadar, should be defined. That

23    is to say, the water quotas to be allotted to those municipalities, that

24    the percentage be determined, or quantities of water, not only for Zadar,

25    so that if there was a drought, Obrovac and Benkovac would suffer the

Page 13780

 1    aftereffects and not have enough water supply.  Now Zadar took a greater

 2    part, or greater share, previously in building the water supply system and

 3    had more users, so it was logical that Zadar be allotted larger quantities

 4    of water.  But of course we had to set the quotas for the other

 5    municipalities as well, Benkovac and Obrovac.

 6       Q.   All right.  Let's not go into all these details.  What I asked you

 7    was:  Is it true that at the government meeting held in Vukovar on the

 8    18th of November, you brought into question this entire agreement, and the

 9    explanation you gave was that it was your economic dependence on Croatia

10    and that therefore it was unacceptable to you?  Just say yes or no:  Yes,

11    it was; no, it wasn't.  That's all I need from you, a yes or no answer.

12    If you say that this is not true, no problem, just say it's not true.  If

13    it is indeed not true.

14       A.   It is true that I said that, but it is not true that I brought the

15    whole agreement into question.

16       Q.   So it is true that you said that.  That's all I wanted to hear

17    from you.

18       A.   I said that it was true that I had said that but that I did not

19    obstruct the signing of the agreement.

20            JUDGE MAY:  Let the witness give his explanation.  Yes.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the agreement was signed, I

22    made some very sharp criticisms of it, and one of those statements went

23    along those lines, in that sense. And it was also broadcast by the

24    Belgrade Novosti studio and the papers for Belgrade, and I heard at the

25    time that Milosevic had insisted that the provincial edition be thrown

Page 13781

 1    into the wastepaper basket because the statement wasn't a good one.

 2            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   Wasn't a good statement that you were toppling the relations that

 4    were so sensitive and that you were just beginning to build up; isn't that

 5    so, Mr. MILAN BABIC?

 6       A.   It was not a breaking down of those relations; it was building

 7    them up on sound foundations.

 8       Q.   First of all you said you cannot -- you could not allow being

 9    economically reliant upon Croatia and that you made a statement to that

10    effect.

11       A.   I did make a statement to that effect because I wanted it

12    particularly -- specifically defined what sectors we're talking about.

13       Q.   You made the statement in the way that you did.

14       A.   I wanted the relations between Krajina and Croatia to be well

15    measured.

16       Q.   You didn't want it to be dependent upon Croatia?

17       A.   If we had a uniform water supply system, if we all relied on the

18    same water supply system, I wanted us to know who gets what.

19       Q.   You were against and you reiterate as your arguments the ones set

20    out in the agreement, and the agreement was nonetheless signed.  It went

21    through despite your opposition, Mr. MILAN BABIC; isn't that right?

22       A.   The agreement was signed because I agreed to it, but I didn't

23    attend the signing ceremony.

24       Q.   Tell me then, please:  Is it true that what you just said here and

25    now, that that's what you said, you made the statement, repeated it before

Page 13782

 1    the government, using almost the very same words, at the Assembly in

 2    Vukovar.  After that, you asked for new corrections to be made,

 3    adjustments, and new formulations.  And then the agreement that was

 4    adopted at the government meeting by a two thirds majority of the Assembly

 5    later on, held on the 1st of December, 1994, you refused to sign it, or

 6    rather, you refused to attend the signing of the agreement; isn't that

 7    right?

 8       A.   You've said several things there.  Now, would you take the

 9    questions in turn and ask me one by one.

10       Q.   All right, then.  Your position, your position whereby you were

11    adamantly against, in opposition to it.  You repeated it at the Assembly

12    meeting?

13       A.   I repeated my statement at the Assembly and this was conveyed.

14       Q.   You asked for new adjustments, reformulations to be introduced

15    into the agreement, and at the Assembly and the government ruled against

16    your position?

17       A.   At the beginning of 1995, with respect to the discussions that

18    were held with respect to Croatia's abolishing the mandate, the term of

19    office up until then for the UN peacekeepers, the debate continued over

20    the agreement, and it was put on ice until that political conflict had

21    been settled.  So that's another issue.  And it took place later on.

22       Q.   Yes, that is quite true.  But once again, you're giving us

23    half-truths and distorting the facts.  When it was signed -- let's be

24    quite specific.  Is this true -- it's all right, I don't mind, you don't

25    have to agree.  If you say it's not true, I'll accept that.  So is it true

Page 13783

 1    that when the agreement was signed, and you didn't want to go there to the

 2    signing session, and you were in fact advertising yourself in that way, so

 3    when the agreement was signed, at that time, you and your SDS Krajina

 4    party branch had decided to launch the initiative with the government and,

 5    via the Assembly, to freeze the economic agreement with Croatia at once.

 6    Was this your self-will once again coming to the fore?  Because you also

 7    say in the same breath that you wanted Krajina to become a part of

 8    Croatia.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  The witness cannot possibly answer questions of this

10    sort.  Now, what is the question, put shortly?

11            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   This is the question:  When the agreement was signed, you and your

13    party, the SDS of Krajina, launched an initiative and you decided to take

14    this initiative with the government of the RSK and through the Assembly of

15    the RSK, to freeze the economic agreement with Croatia at once.  So an

16    agreement that had just been signed to which you were opposed, you took

17    the initiative to have it put on ice; isn't that right?

18       A.   I've already said that this came later on, under different

19    circumstances and for different reasons.  So there was mention of Croatia

20    suspending, or rather, not allowing the continuation of the term of office

21    of the UN peacekeepers, and that was a reaction, this suspending of the

22    economic agreement with Croatia.  This was caused by the decision made by

23    the Croatian government, or rather, the priority was that the relations be

24    settled politically first, and this was provoked by Croatia.

25       Q.   All right.  So this wasn't ordered by Belgrade now, but it was the

Page 13784

 1    Croatian government that was to blame.  Well, I'm happy to hear that

 2    there's something that Belgrade isn't being blamed for.

 3            So your position to freeze the agreement, you say, was a reaction

 4    to the fact that the Croatian government did not wish to extend the

 5    mandate of the UN peacekeepers?

 6       A.   That's right.

 7       Q.   And why didn't somebody else think of that?  Why did you have to

 8    be a greater Catholic than the pope?  How come Mikelic didn't think of

 9    that, to freeze the agreement, or somebody else?  How come you thought of

10    the idea and you were opposed to the agreement in the first place?

11       A.   Well, I said that I wasn't opposed to the agreement.  I explained

12    the conditions and circumstances under which the agreement was put on ice,

13    until this other priority, political issue, had been resolved.

14       Q.   All right.  That means that you spoke out against the agreement

15    because the agreement is what would make Krajina economically dependent

16    upon Croatia.  You did not want to attend the signing ceremony when the

17    agreement was finally signed.  You asked that it be frozen.  And now you

18    tell us that you were actually in favour of the agreement.  Am I

19    understanding?  Am I reading you correctly?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have spoken at

21    length about this question.

22            JUDGE MAY:  There's no needed to go over it again.

23            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   And do you happen to remember that that same man, Mikelic, after

25    the dramatic events that took place in Western Slavonia at an Assembly

Page 13785

 1    meeting of the RSK, pointed to all the failures that the state and

 2    military leadership, the omissions they had made, and indicated that the

 3    borders, 1.600 kilometres of the borders - that was the length of them -

 4    and that there was no force, no power in the world that could defend those

 5    borders?  And then you yourself took urgent steps --

 6            JUDGE MAY:  One at a time.  The witness cannot possibly answer

 7    these sort of rambling questions.  Now, what's the point?

 8            It's said that Mikelic, at an Assembly, pointed to failures and

 9    omissions and said there was no power in the world that could defend the

10    borders.  Now, is that right or not?  Did he say that?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I remember is the Assembly that

12    took place between the 18th and 20th of May, 1995, and at that meeting,

13    Mikelic put forward his criticisms, and they related to cutting off,

14    closing down the motorway at Okucani.  So he accused Martic and some other

15    people of having done that, from Western Slavonia.  He said that they had

16    caused the intervention that was called Flash, Operation Flash, in Western

17    Slavonia, because Martic and a group of men that he mentioned had in fact

18    blocked the motorway at Okucani, the motorway which was open, according to

19    the agreement reached with Croatia.  That was what it was about.

20            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Did Mikelic reach an agreement about the opening of the motorway?

22       A.   That was another portion of the economic agreement with Croatia.

23       Q.   Yes, that's right.  And you shut down the motorway.  You closed it

24    off, out of spite.

25       A.   I told you who closed off the motorway.

Page 13786












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Page 13787

 1       Q.   Well, who did, if it wasn't you?

 2       A.   You mean me personally?

 3       Q.   You personally and the representatives of your party at whose head

 4    you stood.

 5       A.   I did not have a party of my own.  I don't know how many members

 6    of the SDS Krajina were in Western Slavonia.  At the time, I was the

 7    Foreign Minister, and the incident over there was caused by a group of men

 8    from Okucani and the police and Martic, who had ordered the motorway to be

 9    closed.

10       Q.   That too is not true.  You're just saying what suits you.  But let

11    me ask the second part of my question.  Is it true and correct that at

12    that time you took urgent measures to put on the agenda of the Assembly in

13    Borovo Selo the decision on the unification of the RSK with the Republika

14    Srpska?  Is that right?  Is that true?  Just say yes or no.  Don't answer

15    questions that I'm not asking you.

16       A.   It wasn't urgent procedure.  It was placed on the agenda by the

17    request of the bishop of the Serbian Orthodox Church and at the request of

18    Karadzic, Krajisnik, Jovica Stanisic --

19       Q.   So you didn't put it on the agenda?

20       A.   We did so at the initiative and following requests from three

21    bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church who arrived on the 16th of May in

22    Knin, and they represented the Sabor Assembly of the Serbian Orthodox

23    Church, which was meeting in Belgrade at the time to ask for the

24    unification of the RSK and the Republika Srpska.

25       Q.   And is it true that at the time you agreed to be head of the board

Page 13788

 1    for the elaboration of the new constitution of the new state of the RSK

 2    and Republika Srpska, although you knew full well that a step of this kind

 3    was categorically opposed by officials in Belgrade and I personally?

 4       A.   I accepted to be a member of the committee working on the issue

 5    for political reasons, which I can explain to you here if you wish.

 6       Q.   Well, do you know, are you aware, of how far we were opposed, how

 7    categorically we were opposed to completely -- a step that was not well

 8    thought out?

 9       A.   I heard this from others, not from you.

10       Q.   All right.  And all the rest that you have told us about you heard

11    from me; is that right?  Fine.  So everything you heard from others can be

12    eliminated.

13       A.   Krajisnik and Karadzic said that at that point in time, you would

14    not give permission for that, although that should be done.  They said

15    that should be done first and then see later on.

16       Q.   And is it true and correct that, as to this urgent unification of

17    the RSK and the Republika Srpska, nothing came of that?  And to pull the

18    wool over the public's eyes and the Serbs in Croatia, you drew up some

19    initial premises of a state in common, a future state in common, together

20    with Biljana Plavsic, the two of you did, you on behalf of the RSK and she

21    on behalf of the Republika Srpska?

22       A.   Radovan Karadzic, at the meeting in Bijeljina, that is to say the

23    second meeting held on the territory of Republika Srpska, where this issue

24    was discussed, said that now was not the time, although he insisted, he

25    had insisted beforehand, that this be put into effect as soon as possible.

Page 13789

 1    Mrs. Plavsic, at that time meeting in Bijeljina, said, "Well, we have

 2    crossed ourselves so many times, made the sign of the cross for the

 3    unification of our two countries, and we can't implement it now?"

 4            What this was all about was the following:  Krajisnik and Plavsic,

 5    the plan on unification, was used by them.  They used the plan as a form

 6    of threat in order to further their own political ends within

 7    Bosnia-Herzegovina, or rather, as Nikola Koljevic said, in very precise

 8    terms -- Nikola Koljevic himself was on the committee working on the

 9    unification plan in Banja Luka, and he said it's following.  He said:

10    "Milan, this is a paradox, he said.  We are entering into a unification

11    alliance with you, whereas we are in an alliance with the Croats."

12       Q.   All right.  I don't think we need remain in private session, Mr.,

13    for the next part.

14            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.

15                          [Open session]

16            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   As we're talking about the political status of Serbs in Krajina

19    and in Republika Srpska, and so on and so forth, I think that we can state

20    in open -- we can ask for answers in open session to some of the questions

21    that have been raised and that relate to the declaration adopted at a

22    Sabor Assembly held in Srb on the 25th of July, 1995.

23            Could you give me your views about that declaration.

24       A.   What kind of opinion do you want?

25       Q.   What?

Page 13790

 1       A.   In what sense do you want me to answer?

 2       Q.   Well, you have said a lot of contradictory things.  I would like

 3    to know whether you agreed with the contents of that declaration.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Milosevic.

 5    Your comments on the evidence are of no assistance to anybody.  No doubt

 6    you do it for your own purposes, but you don't assist the Court and it's

 7    not fair to the witness.  Now, what is it you want to put, in concrete

 8    terms, as opposed to making some generalizations?

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is not fair to the witness?

10            JUDGE MAY:  It's not fair to make these general and sometimes

11    rather wild allegations that he's been contradicting himself and the like.

12    Now, point out a contradiction.  If you want to ask him about it, of

13    course you're entitled to.  But put things in concrete terms, not

14    generalizations and not comments on the evidence, such as, "You've said a

15    lot of contradictory things."  Now, ask something concrete.

16            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Forget, then, all the

17    contradictory things he said.

18            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   My specific question is as follows:  Now, when you take this

20    declaration from Srb, do you agree with the text or not?

21       A.   At that time, I agreed with that text.

22       Q.   All right, then.  What about today?  You agreed at that time.  Do

23    you agree with it today?

24       A.   Today, political circumstances are different.  We have behind us

25    an experience full of political mistakes and failures.  But in itself, the

Page 13791

 1    text of the declaration, in those times and under those circumstances,

 2    could have produced a good political effect had it not been for subsequent

 3    political abuses and your own insistence on a political process which you

 4    described as legal, whereas it ended up causing internecine conflicts and

 5    divisions.

 6       Q.   We've already heard that.  You explained, in response to one of my

 7    questions yesterday, that it was not the violent secession of certain

 8    republics that caused the war in Yugoslavia, and it was not the effect of

 9    the various political pressures from outside; it was, rather, the right to

10    self-determination that caused the war.

11       A.   Well, that was your explanation.  The war was caused by you, by

12    abusing and compromising that right to self-determination.

13       Q.   All right, then.  Since you say that from today's point of view

14    you would not today support this declaration again -- did I understand you

15    correctly?

16       A.   I referred to certain political processes which followed that

17    declaration.

18       Q.   I'll read out to you something that you wrote at that time

19    proceeding from universal principles, or rather, one universal principle,

20    and that is the right of peoples to self-determination after secession,

21    and proceeding from the existing norms in the constitution of the FRY and

22    the Republic of Croatia, and especially in the Republic of Croatia,

23    stating that the Republic of Croatia is also a state of the Serbian people

24    of Croatia, and for purposes of protecting its sovereignty and freedom,

25    the Serbian people populating today's unified territories hereby adopts

Page 13792

 1    and promulgates.

 2            What is there about it that is not honourable or principled?  What

 3    do you see in it that is not politically correct and dishonest?

 4       A.   In that part of the text that you read?

 5       Q.   I can read out to you the entire declaration.

 6       A.   The right to self-determination should have been exercised within

 7    the boundaries of the republics where these peoples lived.  That would

 8    have been a solution that would not have caused conflicts.

 9       Q.   So that is your current interpretation?

10       A.   That's my current opinion.

11       Q.   I don't know where it is in my notes, but I'll find it later.  It

12    is precisely peaceful solutions that the Presidency of the SFRY discussed

13    at that time.  Before I quote again to you a part of this declaration, do

14    you know that in all constitutions of Croatia, until those changes that

15    brought HDZ into power, that in all constitutions of Croatia, the Serbian

16    people in Croatia were treated as an equal constituent nation?  Do you

17    know that?

18       A.   That's correct.

19       Q.   Do you know that Croats, Serbs, and Slovenes who lived in the

20    Austro-Hungarian empire after the First World War united into one state

21    with Serbia who was on the side of the victors in that war, the First

22    World War, whereas Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, and other South Slavs in that

23    area were on the side of the Austro-Hungarian empire?

24       A.   I spoke before this Court about the way the Kingdom of Serbs,

25    Croats, and Slovenes was established.

Page 13793












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Page 13794

 1       Q.   It was those Serbs who united together with Croats and Slovenes in

 2    this area, who united with Serbia, who were expelled from that state as if

 3    they hadn't existed before that state ever came into being.

 4       A.   That was an agreement between the Serbian people there and the

 5    Croatian government, or rather, lack of agreement between them about the

 6    position of the Serbian people there.

 7            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Let the record reflect that I said what period

 8    are we dealing with?  Perhaps the witness can help us.

 9            THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

10            MR. MAY:  Be quiet, Mr. Milosevic.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic made a historical

12    outline of the establishment of the first state in 1918, of the first

13    state of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, and the unification of those peoples

14    from the previous territory of the Austro-Hungarian empire.  That was one

15    topic.  Another topic --

16            JUDGE MAY:  We're dealing with 1918.  No assistance to us,

17    Mr. Milosevic.  Now, move on to something up to date, if you want us to

18    continue with this.

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I just mentioned in passing

20    1918 in a complex sentence addressed to the witness.

21            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  Let us move on, then.  Let us move on.

22            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Therefore, it is not in dispute that in all constitutions until

24    1990, until the HDZ appeared, the Serbian people were an equal,

25    constituent people within Croatia and that Croatia was defined as the

Page 13795

 1    state of the Croatian people, the Serbian people, and other peoples living

 2    there.  Was that true, Mr. MILAN BABIC?

 3       A.   Yes, that's true.  I spoke about that several times already.

 4       Q.   So it's not an everyday political conflict between HDZ and Serbian

 5    representatives in 1990.  It was about the abolishing of the status of the

 6    Serbian people in Krajina, a status which they had even before Croatia

 7    existed?

 8       A.   I said already, and let me repeat:  Yes, it was a topic and the

 9    subject of the political conflict in 1990 between the political

10    representatives of the Serbian people and the new Croatian authorities,

11    that is, the HDZ.  You interfered in that political conflict in the way

12    I've already described.

13       Q.   What you described is not correct, but let me get back to this

14    declaration of which you're now washing your hands.  Let me read another

15    passage from it.

16            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, to assist you, it's the

17    declaration of Srb, and it's tab 10 of Exhibit 351.

18            JUDGE MAY:  Thank you.

19            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   So this one further up I read out invokes the constitution of

21    Croatia, which defines Croatia as a state belonging also to the Serbian

22    people.  And then it goes on to say in the declaration itself:

23            "Within the borders of the state of Croatia, which is a state also

24    of the Serbian people living in it, the Serbian people, based on its

25    geographical, historical, cultural, and other characteristics, is a

Page 13796

 1    sovereign people, with all the rights making up the sovereignty of one

 2    people."

 3            What do you have against a stand like that?  Is that an honourable

 4    position?

 5       A.   At that time, it was an honourable position that we fought for.

 6    It is still an honourable position from the point of view of the

 7    constitution and the status of the Serbian people in Croatia.

 8       Q.   A stance can be either principled or unprincipled.  It cannot be

 9    principled at one time and not be principled today.  I'll quote another

10    passage:

11            "One cannot, without the participation of the Serbian people in

12    Croatia, choose the form of Yugoslav unity, especially in terms of

13    secession.  Peoples can secede, not states."

14            Is that an appropriate position?  Was it true?

15       A.   That's in the declaration.  It was true at the time.  I said at

16    the time there were two options: One in favour of the Yugoslav Federation,

17    and staying within it, which was supported by you; and another option,

18    supported by the HDZ, headed by Franjo Tudjman, and between these two

19    options, we chose the option favoured by Serbia, and that's the sentence

20    you just read.

21       Q.   I don't know whether you accepted that option.  If you had, it is

22    to your credit, because the stance of Serbia at the time was that all

23    nations and peoples are equal, that it was peoples who united using their

24    right to self-determination into Yugoslavia.  It was no fabrication of the

25    regime.  It is a historic fact contained in all the constitutions of

Page 13797

 1    Yugoslavia until that day.

 2       A.   You forgot just one thing:  Peoples exercise their equality and

 3    rights within the republics where they lived, whereas on the level of the

 4    SFRY, they exercised them through their republics.  That's what you

 5    overlooked.

 6       Q.   You didn't overlook anything.  You simply don't know anything

 7    about it.  Out of fear, you are now denouncing very principled positions

 8    that you held at the time, and I think --

 9            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment.  Just a moment.  It's alleged that you

10    are acting out of fear in denouncing the principles you held at the time.

11    You should have the opportunity of answering that.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not giving up those views out of

13    fear.  I only believe that advocating such stands on the division of

14    peoples in states was groundwork for conflict in war, and it was a

15    premise, as it turned out, for the beginning of ethnic clashes on the

16    territory of Yugoslavia, which brought about horrors and destruction.

17            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   Wasn't it precisely the stand of Serbia and my own personal stand

19    that peoples should not separate, that they should stay together, to

20    preserve Yugoslavia instead?  And I'm claiming, and was claiming at the

21    time, that only if we preserve Yugoslavia, the Serbian people would remain

22    within one state, because by creating that state in 1918, they began

23    living in one state, although they populated various territories in that

24    part of the world.

25       A.   You said that only that people would remain within one state,

Page 13798

 1    whereas self-determination was divided across republics.  Parts of other

 2    republics who did not favour that sort of Yugoslavia also had the right to

 3    self-determination, and that caused the war.

 4       Q.   Let us look at the facts.  It is senseless to repeat over and over

 5    again this lecture about Serbia and myself personally working for

 6    divisions and separation.  If we had done that, Serbia would not have been

 7    the only one who remained with an unchanged ethnic composition throughout

 8    these years.  We worked on the country for unity and preserving

 9    Yugoslavia.  And this declaration which you are denouncing now reflects an

10    honourable and principled position, and you degraded it by the moves you

11    made.  And I'll tell you about one move in particular:  On the 28th of

12    February, 1991, you made the decision, instead of this political approach

13    and political solution, you made a decision on annexing SAO Krajina to the

14    Republic of Serbia, although Belgrade, Serbia, and I myself were opposed

15    to it.  Wasn't this the way to resolve these principled issues?  You

16    approached them in a completely wrong way, which you are now trying to

17    blame on your associates --

18            JUDGE MAY:  Now, you've been told before, Mr. Milosevic, that

19    speeches are not questions, and we've had a speech which has lasted a

20    minute and a half.  We'll go into private session.

21    [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

22            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

23            JUDGE MAY:  Wait a moment.

24            Witness MILAN BABIC, we've probably been over these matters to

25    exhaustion, but if there's anything you want to say about anything which

Page 13799

 1    the accused has been asserting in the last minute and a half, you can; in

 2    particular, the decision of the 28th of February, 1991.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 28th of February, 1991, the

 4    Serbian National Council and the Executive Council of SAO Krajina adopted

 5    a resolution on the separation of SAO Krajina from the Republic of

 6    Croatia.  That was in reaction to a previous decision taken by the

 7    Republic of Croatia dated the 20th of February on separation from

 8    Yugoslavia, and this again was in line with the political logic or claims

 9    of Milosevic in Serbia that nations are entitled to self-determination,

10    and this came after the showing of the film on Spegelj and a campaign from

11    which the Serbs in Krajina realised that the government of Croatia was an

12    enemy.  And this decision was formalised on the 1st of April.

13            And in the meantime, on the 16th of March, 1991, upon the request

14    of Slobodan Milosevic, addressed to me personally by phone to support

15    Yugoslavia, the Executive Council of SAO Krajina took a decision on

16    separation from the Republic of Croatia and addressed a draft of the

17    decision to the municipalities for adoption, and Municipal Assemblies

18    adopted such a decision after that.

19            So all this came later, from a provision in the declaration which

20    Slobodan Milosevic supported and told me himself that this position was

21    correct and that the JNA would uphold this principle of self-determination

22    of nations or peoples.  And these guarantees prompted the adoption of such

23    decisions.

24            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Wasn't my public policy what you said I told you by phone?  This

Page 13800












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Page 13801

 1    was on all TV stations, the newspapers, and everywhere, that we were

 2    advocating the preservation of Yugoslavia?  So therefore, whether I spoke

 3    to you about it is quite unimportant.  I addressed millions of people

 4    through the mediation of television, in favour of Yugoslavia.

 5       A.   Yes, but after that, you made a contradictory statement.  After

 6    this talk to me, you said that Yugoslavia was not functioning, or

 7    something to that effect.

 8       Q.   Whether something is functioning or not, I don't know what you are

 9    alluding to now, but nowhere, in no statement of mine, no public

10    appearance of mine, is there any other policy reflected except the policy

11    of preserving Yugoslavia.

12       A.   That the peoples of Yugoslavia are entitled to self-determination,

13    that the Serbian people are entitled to live one state, that they cannot

14    live in four states, that a confederation is not a state but a federation,

15    so you advocated that the Serb people should remain in a state that you

16    were creating.

17       Q.   Why are you making conclusions from my public statements and

18    taking sentences out of context?  The other side burnt its fingers too

19    when it took out of context my speech in Kosovo Polje, and now it's being

20    printed in some 50 countries to the shame and disgrace of this very

21    institution.

22            JUDGE MAY:  Nothing to do with this witness.  It's nothing to do

23    with this witness, Mr. Milosevic.  Now, what is the point?

24            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   So was it clear that one -- that a principled position regarding

Page 13802

 1    the right to self-determination, and a principled position in favour of

 2    the preservation of Yugoslavia, is one thing, and that quite opposite to

 3    that is this crazy decision of yours on the unification of SAO Krajina

 4    with the Republic of Serbia?  You know very well that Serbia opposed this,

 5    that I personally opposed it and said that it was crazy.  How can you

 6    justify such a decision of yours by our position that Yugoslavia had to be

 7    preserved?  Our support for Yugoslavia.

 8       A.   Your policy was to preserve Yugoslavia for the Serbian people,

 9    regardless of where they lived within the territory of Yugoslavia.  That

10    was an expression of your policies.  That was what you advocated.

11       Q.   You just said something that is quite right; to preserve

12    Yugoslavia because it is in the best interest of all the Yugoslav peoples,

13    and of course on condition that those peoples want that too.  Otherwise,

14    how could there be the right of peoples to self-determination if someone

15    were to force a people to remain in a particular state?

16       A.   Well, that is the gist of it.  You were saying that other peoples

17    need not remain in Yugoslavia, that is, in the state that you were

18    building, but that the Serb people had to and that they have the right to

19    and that they want to remain in that state, in that Yugoslavia that you

20    were building.  And you said to me on innumerable occasions that this

21    right of the Serbian people in Croatia, that is, in SAO Krajina, would be

22    protected by the Yugoslav People's Army.

23       Q.   So you are now claiming that you wanted to remain in Yugoslavia,

24    under pressure, because I told you you had to stay there.

25       A.   You said that that was our right and that the JNA would protect

Page 13803

 1    our right and that this was lawful and legal.

 2       Q.   We'll come to your relationship and my relationship with the JNA,

 3    and on the basis of these documents which have been produced here rather

 4    carelessly and which show many things that they were not intended to

 5    show.  We'll come to that.

 6            The JNA was the Yugoslav army, was it not, Mr. MILAN BABIC?  They were

 7    the armed forces of the SFRY.  And the JNA protected all the Yugoslav

 8    peoples, not just the Serbs.

 9       A.   How they protected them we can see from the consequences.

10       Q.   But the JNA was protecting all the Yugoslav peoples and

11    endeavouring to avoid the extremists exterminating each other, like you

12    and the HDZ; isn't that right, Mr. MILAN BABIC?

13       A.   The JNA protected the Serbian people by causing misfortune and

14    tragedy to the Croats and Muslims, and by compromising what the Serbs felt

15    was their right, and that is the right to self-determination, which you

16    said was correct.

17       Q.   The JNA did not do evil to the Croats or the Muslims.  It was the

18    extremists who did evil, that you led, and which the JNA tried to appease

19    and separate.

20            JUDGE MAY:  I don't think there's much point going on with this

21    argument, and it's purely an argument, nothing more.

22            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Is it in dispute, then, just this: That Belgrade was emphatically

24    against your decision to annex Krajina to Serbia in 1991, a decision that

25    you took at the beginning of 1991?  Is that right or not?

Page 13804

 1       A.   On the 1st of April.

 2       Q.   All right, 1st of April, 1991.

 3       A.   You personally were against it, and you called me up by phone that

 4    this decision should be annulled and that we should declare our support

 5    for Yugoslavia.

 6       Q.   Therefore, you did that contrary to my emphatic position against

 7    the position of Serbia, and you are attributing this decision of yours on

 8    separation from Croatia and annexation with Serbia to our position and my

 9    policies.  How can you explain that?

10       A.   You said that it shouldn't be annexation with Serbia but that we

11    should declare our support to Yugoslavia, which other peoples can leave.

12       Q.   Do you remember that in 1991 there were a whole series of

13    discussions among presidents of the six Yugoslav republics; once in

14    Zagreb, once in Slovenia at the Brdjani Krajina, once in -- no, sorry,

15    not in Zagreb -- yes, before Zagreb -- in Split, in Okrid [phoen], in

16    Macedonia, in Sarajevo, in Belgrade, that in all these towns there were

17    talks among the six presidents of the republics, and at all six of those

18    talks, I advocated support for Yugoslavia?  Is that well known or was that

19    a secret?

20       A.   It is well known that you exclusively supported the federative

21    set-up of Yugoslavia, because you said a confederation would not be a

22    state.  And at the beginning of June only you accepted Izetbegovic and

23    Gligorov's proposal on some kind of a mixed entity.  But essentially, you

24    were in favour of Yugoslavia as a state.  I even asked you whether Serbia

25    and Croatia could form a confederation, and you said, "No.  Let them go.

Page 13805

 1    I don't want them.  I'll join with Greece."  So you advocated a position

 2    in public that Yugoslavia could only be a federation, a model that you

 3    designed, that such a state could be composed not only of republics but

 4    also parts of peoples from other republics who wished to stay in that

 5    state.

 6       Q.   That is your story about my concept.

 7       A.   But that is what you explained to me.

 8       Q.   I don't know about that.  But if, in response to my emphatic

 9    opposition, you took a decision to secede and join with Serbia, and you're

10    attributing that to my policies, then I can only imagine what kind of

11    distorted descriptions you can give of other policies.

12       A.   First of all, you did not oppose secession from Croatia, but you

13    opposed proclaiming annexation with Serbia.  What we were supposed to say

14    was that we wanted to stay in Yugoslavia.  You insisted on this.  And

15    after your insistence, Krajina was constituted as a federal territory of

16    Yugoslavia.

17       Q.   You yourself said that Yugoslavia needed to be supported, and now

18    you are distorting things a little, saying we had to stay in Yugoslavia.

19    I said to everyone, and I spoke on television and in the papers and at

20    public rallies:  Support Yugoslavia.

21       A.   The kind of Yugoslavia that you spoke about, that particular kind

22    of Yugoslavia.

23       Q.   A moment ago, didn't you say -- yes, it is true I advocated

24    Yugoslavia, a federation, yes, but as a reasonable man, as a sensible man,

25    I realised that one has to make compromises.  One has to compromise.  And

Page 13806

 1    you yourself said I accepted the initiative of Izetbegovic and Gligorov,

 2    which was in favour of a very loose federation.  But that loose federation

 3    would nevertheless be a state.  It wouldn't be any dis-united sum of

 4    independent states, a loose federation.

 5       A.   At that point in time, Croatia took its decision on independence,

 6    Slovenia took a decision on independence, you had the Yugoslav People's

 7    Army deployed between Krajina and Croatia.

 8       Q.   You're saying all kinds of things.  I really don't know whether

 9    this is a waste of time for something that is absolutely worthless, a

10    worthless testimony, which the documents themselves prove false.  But the

11    witness is valuable from another standpoint, as he will help to establish

12    the participants involved in perjury.  There's plenty of that here too.

13            Let me ask you, please -- it's about a similar event -- that as a

14    result of your arbitrariness, together with Andjelko Grahovac, from Banja

15    Luka, on the 27th of June, 1991, you convened a joint session of the

16    Assembly of SAO Krajina and an Assembly of the community of municipalities

17    of Bosnian Krajina, and at that meeting you adopted a declaration on

18    unification.  Is that right?

19       A.   That was our political initiative, launched from Knin and Banja

20    Luka, at that point in time.

21       Q.   I see, from Knin and Banja Luka.  To unite a part of

22    Bosnia-Herzegovina and a part of Croatia, you who, as you say, from the

23    very beginning wanted to continue living in Croatia.  And that was in your

24    heart and in your mind but not on your lips; is that right?

25       A.   That is an event from the 27th of June, 1991.

Page 13807












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Page 13808

 1       Q.   Yes.  Was that an expression of self-will by an extremist, such as

 2    you, to unite parts of two different republics?

 3       A.   What is the question?

 4       Q.   My question is:  Was that an expression of your arbitrary

 5    decisions which had disastrous effects for both peoples in the area?

 6       A.   First of all, on the 24th of June, in Banja Luka, an agreement on

 7    cooperation was signed between the government of SAO Krajina and the

 8    Executive Council of the Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina.  After that

 9    came the proposal, and within the context of the developments at the time,

10    for those territories, that is, SAO Krajina and the Autonomous Region of

11    Bosnian Krajina, to unite.  And this was a political proposal that was

12    adopted and which appeared at a joint assembly meeting in Bosanski

13    Grahovo.  And both deputies of both Assemblies adopted it.  However, upon

14    the insistence of Radovan Karadzic, who that day even called up Radoslav

15    Brdjanin, the president of the SDS for Bosnian Krajina, telling him that

16    the deputies should annul that agreement, that such a decision could not

17    be made, and the deputies from the Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina,

18    that is, the Banja Luka region, dispersed home, and that was an expression

19    of Karadzic's opposition.  And that is why that idea, that decision, was

20    never implemented, so it didn't have any consequences.  It did not produce

21    any consequences.  What it did produce was your insistence for me to come

22    to Belgrade to meet with Karadzic, and on that occasion, you and Radovan

23    Karadzic told me that that political option was no-go at the time, and you

24    told me that another political option should be advocated.

25            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

Page 13809

 1            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we are speaking about tab 46 and

 2    47 in the binder 352, and in relation to the subject before, we were

 3    talking about the tab 35 of 352 and tab 64 of 351.  So these were the

 4    documents discussed.

 5            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   It's quite unbelievable with what insistence each and every

 7    cardinal and extremist activity of yours you are turning in your favour,

 8    even though all the data prove you false.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  This is a comment from you which is not proper.  Have

10    you got any more questions?  Or I'm going to bring this to an end, if

11    there's just constant comment of this sort.  Now, ask the witness a

12    question.

13            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask, Mr. May, what kind of an

14    expression is it?  A proposal was made.  It wasn't made.  You were behind

15    that proposal.  You were the main protagonist of this crazy idea.  It

16    wasn't just made out of the blue.  You initiated it, you organised it, and

17    you caused chaos in Krajina, both the Bosnian and the SAO Croatian Krajina

18    about unification.

19            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment.  Let the witness deal with the

20    question.

21            What's being said is that it wasn't a proposal that was made; it

22    was your idea.  Do you want to answer that?

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  The idea came from

24    Borivoj Rasuo.  I supported it, as did Andjelko Grahovac and the majority

25    of deputies in both Assemblies.  And I publicly advocated it and that is

Page 13810

 1    how it was adopted.  But it was not implemented because Slobodan Milosevic

 2    called me to Belgrade to tell me, through Radovan Karadzic, there was a

 3    different plan for Bosnia, not that one.

 4            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   So this Borivoj Rasuo, your personal friend and political advisor,

 6    appears to have been the initiator of all your ideas.  He appears to be

 7    your alter ego.  Is that right?

 8       A.   I don't think so.

 9       Q.   A second "you."  That's what I was saying.

10       A.   I said that he did have political influence over me until 1994.

11       Q.   As you had a background, an educational background that covers

12    Latin, "verba volant scripta manent."  Do you know what that means?

13       A.   If you want to tell me something, tell me in Serbian.

14       Q.   It means words fly and what is written remains.  So whatever is

15    written down is in contradiction to what you are saying today; is that

16    clear to you?

17            JUDGE MAY:  This is more literary comment.  Let us go on.

18            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm very pleased, Mr. May, with your

19    comments.  I'm pleased that you're commenting on a proverb.  Because if it

20    was Mr. Nice commenting on it, it would be rather primitive, as it was

21    last time with regard to a Serbian proverb.

22            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Do you remember, since you're saying that the decision was not

24    implemented, that I opposed it because it was crazy, that Radovan Karadzic

25    was against it because he also thought it was crazy -- do you remember

Page 13811

 1    that in my presence, Radovan Karadzic told you that the Serbs and Muslims

 2    have excellent relationships, that your adventure was undermining the

 3    trust between the Serbs and Muslims and that it was inflicting enormous

 4    damage to harmony achieved in Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Because after the

 5    multiparty elections they had very good cooperation.  When I say "they,"

 6    I'm referring to both Croats, Muslims, and Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 7    Do you remember at what length he spoke about the disastrous effect of

 8    this initiative of yours on the mutual trust between Serbs and Muslims

 9    which he wanted to preserve?

10       A.   You called me to come to Belgrade for him to tell me that there

11    was a different plan for Bosnia and that now was not the time for the

12    unification of the two Krajinas, but that we should wait for Alija

13    Izetbegovic to make a wrong political move, and then he would settle

14    accounts with him in the way he said.  He said that he had Alija

15    Izetbegovic in his little pocket and that he could deal with him whenever

16    he wanted but that now was not the time.  It was better to wait for him to

17    make a wrong political move, and then he would settle accounts by chasing

18    the Muslims into the river valleys and uniting all Serb territories in

19    Bosnia-Herzegovina and annexing SAO Krajina to that territory.  That was

20    the plan.  That's what he presented to me in your presence.  And then you

21    said, "Don't be stubborn," addressed to me, and, "Don't stand in Radovan's

22    way."  So you called me for him to announce this plan to me, which I

23    assume you had designed together.

24       Q.   So that was going to be my next question.  I was going to ask

25    you:  Was this in my presence?  Did he say this in my presence?  That's

Page 13812

 1    not true.

 2       A.   But that is why you called me, for him to say that in your

 3    presence.

 4       Q.   Both he and I, Mr. MILAN BABIC, were endeavouring to persuade you to

 5    give up that idiotic plan which was upsetting the whole of Yugoslavia,

 6    because questions had to be resolved by political means and not in such an

 7    arbitrary and unilateral manner.  And never did he say in my presence that

 8    he had Izetbegovic in his little pocket and that he would force them into

 9    river valleys, and other such nonsense.  These are all things that you

10    added later on and made up.  It appears you have an extraordinary ability

11    to use half-truths.  Half-truths --

12            JUDGE MAY:  I'm stopping this.  I'm stopping this speech.

13            Now, what's said is that you've made this up.  Can you deal very

14    briefly with it, please, Witness MILAN BABIC.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not true that I've made it up.

16    What is true is that Slobodan Milosevic invited me to Belgrade for Radovan

17    Karadzic to tell me, in his presence, about a plan that he agreed with,

18    and that plan was that what we were doing in Bosnia and Grahovo could not

19    be implemented just then and that there was another plan for

20    Bosnia-Herzegovina, what I've already said that Radovan said.  And

21    Milosevic, after Radovan Karadzic told me this, told me not to be

22    stubborn, not to continue insisting on my plan on the unification of two

23    Krajinas and not to stand in Karadzic's way.  And after that he asked me

24    to settle that with the leadership of SDS in Bosnian Krajina.  Radoslav

25    Brdjanin organised the meeting in Celinac with people from Bosnian Krajina

Page 13813

 1    for Radovan to tell them this in my presence.

 2            JUDGE MAY:  It's now time to adjourn.  We'll adjourn for 20

 3    minutes.

 4                          --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 12.38 p.m.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.  We are still in private session.

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Then I can ask him this

 8    question.

 9            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   As you say -- let us just connect the facts that you presented

11    yourself.  You say that this decision was annulled, it had no

12    consequences.  If it produced no consequences, then why did I insist that

13    you go together with Karadzic to the Bosnian Krajina to calm down the

14    people whom you had mobilised in such a way, creating chaos between the

15    Serbs and the Muslims in Bosnia?  Wasn't that consequence great enough for

16    you?  Why then did you go?  Why was it necessary for you to go and calm

17    them down?

18       A.   First of all, the declaration was never abolished.  It was never

19    implemented, because there was a different plan in play, a plan that I

20    spoke about, and which Karadzic explained in Celinac on the same day in

21    the afternoon.

22       Q.   Don't repeat those political explanations to me.  I'm asking you

23    about facts and you are answering me with political explanations that you

24    are making up yourself.  I'm asking you about facts.

25       A.   I don't know what you're talking about.

Page 13814

 1       Q.   I'm asking you:  Why did I insist that you go there together with

 2    him --

 3            JUDGE MAY:  How could he say why you did something,

 4    Mr. Milosevic?  He can't begin to say that.  It's up to you.

 5            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   All right.  Did I tell you to go there together with Karadzic to

 7    pacify those people, to give up that crazy idea?

 8       A.   You told me to go with Karadzic to Celinac to explain this to the

 9    people, why it wasn't the right time to implement this idea at the time.

10       Q.   All right.  Let us sum up a few things, a few things that you have

11    presented so far.  One:  You said that you advocated peace and life within

12    Croatia; however, you proclaimed a state of war.  That is a fact.  You

13    opposed the Vance Plan.  That's another fact.  You decided that Krajina

14    would be annexed to Serbia.  That's a third fact.  You also made a

15    decision on the unification of Krajina with Bosnian Krajina.  Yet another

16    fact.  And I, and all the other people who opposed all these moves and

17    acts by you, of which I enumerated only a few, we, according to you, were

18    advocating war, we had secret plans under the banner of Yugoslavship, et

19    cetera, et cetera.

20       A.   Could you ask your questions one by one?

21       Q.   I enumerated the questions I have already posed and to which

22    you've given me your answers.

23       A.   I spoke in detail of all the matters you are now repeating.  I

24    gave you very precise answers.

25       Q.   How can you then explain this contradiction?

Page 13815












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Page 13816

 1            JUDGE MAY:  You know, Mr. Milosevic, this is all argument, in

 2    which you are trying, through the witness, to argue your case.  All he can

 3    do is to answer the questions you ask, which are about facts, not

 4    arguments.  It will be for us to draw the conclusions and us to decide.

 5    But there's no point going on with this witness in this frame.

 6            Now, you've got a limited amount of time -- you have a limited

 7    amount of time, so you should move on rather than trying to argue.  Or

 8    perhaps it may be you might be able to finish a bit earlier.

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the problem is that when I

10    ask about facts, the witness answers me with some political sentences he's

11    been coached to say.

12            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   I've noticed that in this book by Florence Hartmann, who is the

14    spokesperson for this illegal Prosecutor's office, who wrote against me,

15    and in the French translation, it says -- "Milosevic, The Diagonal of a

16    Lunatic."  That's the title of the book.  It says that you made a project

17    to unify Serbs in both republics and that I prevented this project in June

18    1991 and that you proclaimed the Republic of Serbian Krajina, wishing to

19    become its president, when, in December 1991, it seemed to you that

20    Croatia would be recognised within its boundaries.  What she writes here,

21    is that true or not?

22       A.   I spoke very precisely here about this political idea of the

23    unification of the two Krajinas, the SAO Krajina and the Bosnian Krajina,

24    and if I didn't say it before, I'll say that I was elected president on

25    the 19th December 1991 and submitted a proposal, an application, for the

Page 13817

 1    recognition of Serbian Krajina by the European community, by the

 2    international community.

 3       Q.   Well, regarding this meeting on the 1st of July, 1990, in Knin,

 4    when you gathered presidents of municipalities of Benkovac, Obrovac, Donji

 5    Lapac, Gracac, Korenica, and made the decision to establish the community

 6    of municipalities of Northern Dalmatia and Lika, was it in any way

 7    attributable to any authority in Serbia or Yugoslavia?

 8       A.   I know about a different meeting on a different date which

 9    discussed - it was in July, 5th or 6th - it discussed constitutional

10    amendments, or rather, drafted amendments to the constitution of the

11    Socialist Republic of Croatia, submitted by the Presidency of the Republic

12    of Croatia.  The community of municipalities, or rather, the Assembly of

13    Knin, made a motion for establishing a community of the municipalities of

14    Northern Dalmatia and Lika, and all this began to be implemented in end

15    June.  On the 27th of June, the Assembly of the municipality of Knin made

16    this decision, followed by the municipality of Lapac, Gracac, et cetera.

17    So it was a community of these municipalities.

18            I spoke about this and I said that I did not consult anyone in

19    Serbia about this, this was a political initiative of mine and the

20    Assembly of Knin, designed to improve the economic situation of that

21    region and to affirm Knin as its seat.  And later it became a pivot for

22    exercising political rights as interpreted by the SDS and by the people

23    who led this community of municipalities.  I spoke about this.

24       Q.   So nobody in Serbia had anything to do with this; right?  Let me

25    now ask you about all these rallies, where you addressed the people, made

Page 13818

 1    speeches, and saying the things you said.  Did anyone from Serbia put

 2    pressure on you as to what you should say at these rallies and what stands

 3    you should take, in the entire year of 1990?

 4       A.   I said that I made speeches, spoke out in the press, in the media,

 5    in public.

 6       Q.   I don't know what statements you mean specifically.

 7       Q.   Did anyone from Serbia tell you what you should say?  That's my

 8    question.

 9       A.   At these rallies, I advocated the programme of the SDS, then I

10    advocated the constitution of the community of municipalities of Northern

11    Dalmatia and Lika.  I used the political vocabulary and the terminology

12    currently applied to the Croatian government, HDZ, and the historical

13    events.  As for these events, especially the Ustasha genocide, we repeated

14    the words that were popular in the Serbian media and television.  We

15    adopted the political vocabulary that was promoted by Serbia at the time.

16       Q.   I asked:  Did anyone from Serbia tell you what you should say?

17    That's what I asked.  And instead of the answer, I heard a lengthy

18    explanation of another sort.

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think we can return into

20    open session.  I really think that we should not be spending so much time

21    in private sessions.

22                          [Open session]

23            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Is it true that the Republic of Serbian Krajina set up a state

Page 13819

 1    commission for war crimes and the crimes of genocide, headed by Mile

 2    Dakic?

 3       A.   There was some commission, but who dealt with these issues, I

 4    really don't know.  There was something in this area.  I don't really

 5    know.  I believe Dakic dealt with historical issues, whereas somebody else

 6    dealt [redacted], I

 7    believe.

 8       Q.   I didn't ask you about the staffing of that commission.  I asked

 9    you whether Krajina formed a state commission for war crimes, headed by

10    Mile Dakic.

11       A.   I know that Dakic dealt with some historical facts, but whether it

12    was within a state commission, I don't know.

13       Q.   Do you know about his letter of 30th September 1994 - and I assume

14    you should be aware of it, in light of your job - a letter addressed to

15    the Ministry of Justice of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in Knin, to

16    which letter there was attached a list of established perpetrators of war

17    crimes from 1990 to 1991, and he enumerated all sorts of crimes committed

18    against the population of Krajina, descriptions of victims and

19    perpetrators.   And do you know whether the judiciary of the Krajina

20    instituted proceedings in a single case from that list?

21       A.   I don't remember that document exactly.  I know that there were

22    proceedings in the judiciary against perpetrators.  I have already said

23    all I knew about this, all that I could remember.

24       Q.   Answer this now:  Why are you making up that at some reception in

25    Belgrade in December 1990, or January 1991, you heard from Dobrica Cosic

Page 13820

 1    that Bosnian Krajina and Serbian Krajina should unite and become the

 2    seventh Yugoslav Republic?

 3       A.   I heard that from academician Raskovic, who said that it was an

 4    idea of Dobrica Cosic.  That was before December 1990.  So it was before

 5    his departure for America, and he spoke about it after he returned from

 6    America.  That's the way he spoke.  Raskovic said, namely, that it was

 7    Dobrica Cosic who told him about this.  Raskovic advocated this thesis

 8    about the unification of the two Krajinas at rallies in the autumn, and he

 9    even said that at the water of the Una River, the two Krajinas should be

10    united.

11       Q.   So you said before that it was an idea of this person whom we

12    qualified as your alter ego.  How come you are saying something totally

13    different now?  Did you make this up?

14       A.   We are now discussing political ideas presented in autumn 1990 and

15    the events that we discussed in closed session were from June and July

16    1991.

17       Q.   Of course.  June and July 1991.  At one point you said that in

18    January 1991 you heard this from Dobrica Cosic at the reception in

19    Belgrade.

20       A.   I didn't say that.

21       Q.   Well, why don't you take a look at your own statements?  They are

22    pretty long, so you can hardly keep check of all the untruths you've

23    uttered.  But that's your problem.  Anyway, we've cleared this up.  You've

24    made it all up.

25       A.   I didn't.

Page 13821

 1            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Milosevic, you are making speeches.  You're not to

 2    comment on the witness's evidence.  You can do that in due course, such

 3    comment as you want.  But for the moment you're supposed to be asking

 4    questions and not making denigrating comments about the witnesses.

 5            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

 6       Q.   Let us continue with your sincere efforts to achieve peace, and so

 7    on and so forth.  Did these efforts include a speech at a rally which you

 8    held on the 20th of July, 1990, before the command of the Knin Corps, and

 9    you asked the JNA to hand over their weapons?  Is that true or not?

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I think when Mr. Milosevic

11    becomes so very specific about public appearances, I think this should be

12    done in private session.

13            JUDGE MAY:  Private session.

14    [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

15            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know which rally you are

17    talking about.

18            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   The 20th of July, 1990.

20       A.   At that time, I made a lot of statements.  As for a rally in front

21    of JNA command, I don't know.

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry this is a private session,

23    because I have to ask one question that I believe, Mr. May, does not

24    belong in private session.

25            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13822












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Page 13823

 1       Q.   Did you invite at that meeting the people of Krajina to armed

 2    resistance to the Ustashas and qualify the JNA as traitors, as a traitor

 3    army, because they refused to hand over their weapons?  Is that true or

 4    not?

 5       A.   I don't remember a statement of that sort.  I made many sharp

 6    statements at the time to comment the events related to the ban of the

 7    referendum.  When did you say it was?

 8       Q.   It was on the 20th of July, 1990.

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   When even, according to your own claims, you had no contact yet

11    with anyone from Serbia.  There were demonstrations before the command of

12    the corps.  You asked the JNA to hand over their weapons so that you could

13    fight against the Ustashas.  You qualified the JNA as traitors because

14    they refused to hand over their weapons to you.  You don't remember saying

15    that?  You don't remember these activities?

16       A.   No.  It didn't happen at that time.

17       Q.   At what time did it happen, Mr. MILAN BABIC?  At what time did what I

18    just quoted happen?

19       A.   It was not a rally, and the statements were not like that.  They

20    followed the announcement of the referendum on the 31st of July, 1990.

21    After that ensued sharp political debates between the representatives of

22    the Croatian government and the Serbian National Council, in which I was

23    involved too, and what was at question was whether the called referendum

24    was legitimate and legal and whether it would happen or not.  The Croatian

25    government stand was --

Page 13824

 1       Q.   Let's not waste time.

 2       A.   There were sharp statements made within those debates, but not in

 3    front of any command.

 4       Q.   So what I just said you claim is not true; is that right?

 5       A.   I don't remember any rally on the 20th of July before the command

 6    of the Knin Corps.

 7       Q.   Well, I said the 20th or about the 20th, in front of the

 8    headquarters, that you called for arms -- called the JNA a traitor army

 9    because they did not want to give you any weapons to fight Ustashas, as

10    you said.  Did you never say that, not on the 20th of July, but ever, at

11    any date around about that time?

12       A.   In that way, I don't remember.

13       Q.   In what way did you say it in?

14       A.   I talked about the polemics that were going on with the Croatian

15    government, our discussions.

16       Q.   All right.  That has nothing to do with my question, your polemics

17    with the Croatian government.  Did you speak about a peace parade held on

18    the 1st or 2nd of May of 1991 at Lake Plitvice?

19       A.   I spoke about a peace march that was to have been held on the 1st

20    of May, 1991, at the Plitvice Lakes, and about the -- I informed you about

21    that initiative as well.  You asked that it should not be called a peace

22    march but a picnic on the 2nd of May, and on the 2nd of May we did indeed

23    hold that but it was nonetheless a peace march.  The object of the march

24    was to show that the Plitvice Lakes national park should be set apart from

25    Krajina, that we did not agree to it being otherwise, and that this should

Page 13825

 1    be publicly defined as the territory of the SAO Krajina, which means that

 2    it was in fact a political protest, a peaceful one, a peaceful political

 3    protest against the situation that was introduced into Plitvice as of the

 4    31st of March, 1991.

 5       Q.   All right.  As you said that I asked that it be a picnic on the

 6    2nd of May, do you happen to know -- are you aware of the fact that

 7    throughout Yugoslavia, for 50 years after the Second World War onwards,

 8    that is to say in socialist Yugoslavia, it was customary to hold a picnic

 9    on the 2nd of May?  The 1st and 2nd of May were state holidays, national

10    holidays.  It was Labour Day holiday on the 1st of May, which meant a

11    two-day holiday, and on the 2nd of May, people would go out to have a

12    picnic.  That was customary throughout Yugoslavia.

13       A.   That's what you told me in April when I came to see you.  You said

14    that it was customary to have a picnic on the 2nd of May and that that's

15    what we should do and to hold the picnic on the 2nd of May.

16       Q.   Yes, on the 2nd of May, when everybody in Yugoslavia was

17    picnicking and that you should go on a picnic and give up your

18    demonstrations but to join your fellow citizens throughout Yugoslavia and

19    go out on a picnic.  That's what it was.

20       A.   Well, I didn't go out on a picnic on the 1st of May.

21       Q.   Well, you were a communist yourself; I don't see why you didn't

22    adhere to that custom.

23       A.   Well, it wasn't a custom in our parts.

24       Q.   Well, I'm sure you'll deny that, that it was a custom in due

25    course.  So you wanted to hold a peace march and in the meantime you

Page 13826

 1    proclaimed a state of war, isn't that so?  You personally did that by your

 2    decision.

 3       A.   A state of war in Knin was proclaimed in the way that I have

 4    already described before this Tribunal.  On the 17th of August, 1990.  And

 5    the peace march, or rather, the picnic, as you wanted to call it, was held

 6    on the 2nd of May, 1991.

 7       Q.   All right.  This peace march, was that one of your ideas as well,

 8    or did Rasuo propose that you hold it?

 9       A.   I think it was my idea.  My idea.  I don't remember that anybody

10    else suggested it to me.

11            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  As I'm not mentioning

12    him in the capacity of an orator, I think that we could go back into open

13    session, Mr. May.  I'm not going to mention the speaker.  Because some of

14    the issues that he touched upon I should like to discuss in open session,

15    publicly.

16                          [Open session]

17            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

18            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   And is it true that Mladic and the other officers of the JNA from

20    the 9th Corps you called dirty communists?

21            THE INTERPRETER:  "Komunare" is the term in Serbian, interpreter's

22    note.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember using that term

24    publicly.  In 1992 in the political discussions surrounding the Vance

25    Plan, these terms -- a lot of these kinds of terms were bandied about.

Page 13827

 1    I'm not sure about that particular one.  I don't know which circumstance

 2    you have in mind.

 3            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Tell me, then:  Is the reason for your conflict with Mladic the

 5    call for mobilisation immediately prior to the deblocking of the JNA

 6    barracks in Zadar, Sibenik, and Split?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   All right, then.  Is it true - let me be very specific here - that

 9    you called upon the inhabitants of Knin not to respond to the call-up, not

10    to fight in a non-Serb army but to join the Territorial Defence, which you

11    called at the time the only pure, real, true Serb army?  Is that right?

12       A.   It is not in the way that you described.

13       Q.   How was it, then?

14       A.   The call to mobilisation was a public call, and it was a

15    government decision taken by the SAO Krajina on the basis of certain

16    decisions pursuant to some decisions of the rump Presidency of the SFRY,

17    in October 1991.  And they were called to mobilise within the forces of

18    the SFRY.  And there was another call-up in September.  There was

19    activities to mobilise certain JNA units at the request of the competent

20    commands of the JNA.

21       Q.   And what then?  What next?  Were you opposed to that?

22       A.   I am telling you what I personally took part in.

23       Q.   All right.  Do you know that you weren't the only one who said

24    that the JNA was a non-Serb army and that therefore people shouldn't

25    respond to the call-up, to the mobilisation call, that there were a lot of

Page 13828

 1    rumours going round of that nature, even in Serbia itself, that the JNA

 2    should be disbanded and a Serb guard set up in its place and so on and so

 3    forth?  Do you remember any of that?

 4       A.   The first part of your question I answered in my previous answer,

 5    and it is not as you say.  And what was the second part of your question?

 6    I said yes, I responded to the decisions of the Yugoslav state Presidency

 7    and the calls of the JNA commands in September and October 1991 to

 8    mobilise the citizens into units and structures of the SFRY.  What was

 9    your question?

10       Q.   About the calls for people not to respond to the mobilisation

11    call-up into the ranks of the JNA, from those days.  Do you know that that

12    happened, that they tried to undermine the JNA from within?

13       A.   As I know there was quite a lot of opposition in Serbia itself to

14    this idea on the part of individuals and groups of people and they went

15    out onto the streets to demonstrate against the mobilisation for the JNA

16    in September and in the autumn of 1991.  That's what happened in Serbia,

17    and that is common knowledge.

18       Q.   So you say you weren't working against this mobilisation call-up

19    in Krajina, and your explanation was that it was a traitor army, as you

20    said, it was not a purely Serb army, and so on and so forth.

21       A.   Well, I've already answered that.  I don't understand --

22       Q.   So you say that that's not what you actually did do.

23       A.   Well, I said what we did in Krajina.  I've just explained that.

24            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour --

25            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

Page 13829












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Page 13830

 1            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The witness and Mr. Milosevic were referring

 2    to tab 161 from Exhibit 352.  It's the mobilisation call of the 26th of

 3    October, 1991.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  Thank you.

 5            Yes, Mr. Milosevic.  Let's move on from this.  We've been going

 6    round in circles.

 7            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

 8       Q.   An intercept was played here, as they call it, an intercept, where

 9    I am appealing to Karadzic to stand up to that wave of opposition to the

10    JNA, and to wield his political influence to have people respond to the

11    call-up.  Did you hear that?

12       A.   I heard the transcript of your conversation with Karadzic with

13    respect to mobilisation.

14       Q.   Yes.  Well, was the JNA an armed force which had the task of

15    defending and protecting the entire territory of Yugoslavia and all the

16    Yugoslav peoples within it?

17       A.   The JNA represented the armed forces of the SFRY.  That's what it

18    was.

19       Q.   All right.  And is it common knowledge that in the events that

20    took place before it was attacked itself, and before this mass blockade of

21    the barracks started, the killing of soldiers and all the rest of it, that

22    it exclusively presented a buffer zone, a buffer, between the conflicting

23    parties, the warring parties, including the area of the Republic of Srpska

24    Krajina and other territory where clashes had taken place at that time,

25    within that time frame?  Isn't that right?

Page 13831

 1       A.   I told you about what I knew as to how the JNA was deployed in the

 2    area of Krajina.  It was deployed after the incident which was provoked by

 3    the police, or rather, the parallel structures, which you headed, and that

 4    was the reason why the JNA was deployed on the territory.

 5       Q.   Now, I don't want to discuss those parallel structures that you

 6    have conjured up yourself and construed, but I want to ask something about

 7    the general climate and mood, and you are trying to avoid speaking about

 8    that.  So I have several questions in that regard.

 9            Is it true that with the introduction of the multiparty system

10    into the SFRY in 1989, we saw an escalation in nationalistic, secessionist

11    tendencies?

12       A.   The multiparty system in the former Yugoslavia was introduced

13    successively in the republics.  Each republic would bring its own laws to

14    that effect.

15       Q.   I'm not asking you that.  Answer my question, please.  Was there a

16    burgeoning of nationalist, secessionist tendencies, precisely within that

17    time span?

18       A.   Well, I can say specifically, if -- I could give you a specific

19    answer if you tell me what party, what republic, what time you have in

20    mind.

21       Q.   Well, I'm asking for you in the situation in Croatia, for example,

22    in 1989, as well as in 1990, that is to say, before the elections, after

23    the elections, prior to the HDZ coming to power, after the HDZ had come

24    into power, was there an escalation of nationalist secessionist

25    tendencies?

Page 13832

 1       A.   Well, in 1989, that was one period of time when power and

 2    authority was in the hands of the League of Communists of Croatia, that is

 3    to say, the institutions that the League controlled.  Now, do you want me

 4    to say what the policy of the League of Communists of Croatia was in 1989

 5    or what your policy was in Croatia in that same year?  I don't understand

 6    what you're asking me.

 7       Q.   Do you mean to say that I don't know my own policy in Croatia?

 8    But in 1989, yes, indeed, what I'm talking about is the wave of

 9    nationalism that swept the country.  Did you happen to notice anything in

10    Croatia in 1989 and 1990 to that effect?

11       A.   Well, I've spoken about that before this Tribunal.  I said what

12    I'd noticed and what things happened at that time.  Do you want me to

13    speak about each of these events individually?  If so, I'm ready to do so.

14       Q.   All right.  And is it true that in Croatia it was this trend, this

15    increase of nationalism, that enabled the HDZ party, as a nationalistic

16    group, to come to the fore, to take the head positions on the political

17    arena, and to all intents and purposes to stand at the head of all the

18    anti-Yugoslav forces by the same token?  Was that how things were?

19       A.   The HDZ won the elections in Croatia in April and May 1991.  It

20    won the majority vote and got a place in the Sabor, or Assembly of

21    Croatia.  It received the support of the citizens for its programme.  The

22    majority voted for that party.

23       Q.   And is it true -- or before we move on to this other area, one,

24    the elections, do you remember the percentages, how many votes there were

25    in favour?

Page 13833

 1       A.   A third.

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry.  The witness said "majority."

 3            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Well, would you check that out?  I'd like you to look up the

 5    percentages.

 6       A.   There was a majority vote.  We voted in the electoral units, so it

 7    won the majority of deputies for the Sabor, or Assembly.  What the exact

 8    percentage was, I can't remember.

 9       Q.   Well, that's true, it did win a majority of deputies in the

10    Assembly.  It got the vote.

11            Now, is it also true that preventing this quite obviously

12    disputable right of the Serb people to self-determination, that this was

13    justified in Croatia by promises that were made to the effect that a

14    future independent state of Croatia, as it said in its programme, in its

15    plan and programme, that it would be independent, that this was justified

16    by promises that the state would be a democratic one, a multi-ethnic one,

17    a multiconfessional one, multicultural?  Was that -- were those the

18    promises that were made, the main incentive and arguments for the fact

19    that nothing -- saying that nothing would change when the Serbs were

20    pushed out of the constitution as a constituent peoples?

21       A.   This was a basic political issue, and the political parties of

22    Serbs in Croatia and the Serbs clashed there on the one side with the

23    newly established Croatian authorities on the other, and this was

24    unleashed, as of May 1990, up until December 1990, when the new Croatian

25    constitution was adopted.  The first polemics started in that period of

Page 13834

 1    time, and there was a clash of political views with respect to the

 2    proposals made by the Presidency, led by Franjo Tudjman, the Croatian

 3    Presidency, about the constitutional amendments to the constitution of the

 4    Socialist Republic of Croatia.

 5            And I spoke specifically on that subject.  This gave rise to

 6    resistance and political opposition on the part of the representatives of

 7    the Serb people, or rather, the parties representing the Serb people, and

 8    I made a number of speeches on that occasion, as I did in December 1990,

 9    when the new constitution was enacted and passed of the Republic of

10    Croatia, where it was no longer stipulated that the state of Croatia was

11    also a state of the Serb peoples living in Croatia.  But that constitution

12    mentioned the Serbs as being a national minority, which in fact meant that

13    they did not have the right to self-determination.  And this

14    constitutional determination of this constituent peoples, as they had been

15    up until that time, and recognises the right of peoples to

16    self-determination, up until secession from the republic, by this new

17    constitution, the December constitution of 1990 in Croatia, this right was

18    rescinded.  It no longer existed.  It was declared null and void.  And so

19    before the constitution went through, the Serbian autonomous province of

20    Krajina, we wanted to establish it on the basis of the constitution of the

21    Socialist Republic of Croatia, which were in force until December 1990.

22       Q.   Could you make it brief, please.

23       A.   Including the amendments adopted in July 1990.

24       Q.   Well, did we have a discussion of principle at that time too?

25    Because those people who wanted to break away said they wanted to go into

Page 13835

 1    Europe, move and become part of Europe within the process of European

 2    integration, and we asked ourselves:  How come we're going to be included

 3    into the process of European integration quicker if, before that, we break

 4    up what had already been integrated as a multi-ethnic and multicultural

 5    factor, the kind of Yugoslavia that -- and the Yugoslavia that was a

 6    successful model?  Was that clear?

 7       A.   What are you talking about?

 8       Q.   Well, I'm talking about our public statements made with respect to

 9    those false explanations given, that we'd reach European integration

10    quicker if we first of all break up Yugoslavia's integration.  So whose

11    idea was that?

12       A.   I was saying that there were two dominant political options at the

13    time as to the future of Yugoslavia.  One of those options was a federal

14    one, a federalist one, which was your own.  You came out in favour of a

15    strong federation, and the right of nations to self-determination and the

16    right of peoples to remain within Yugoslavia.  The second concept at that

17    time was Franjo Tudjman's concept, and Slovenia's concept, according to

18    which the republics should form a confederative alliance, or rather, to

19    reach an agreement on the disassociation of these entities.

20       Q.   You've already said that.

21       A.   With respect to the European community, I don't know what your

22    question was specifically in that regard.

23       Q.   Very well.  You're using a lot of time for explanations in answer

24    to things that I'm not asking you about.  Tell me, with precision:  Is it

25    true that with the victory of the HDZ at the elections in 1990, this

Page 13836

 1    marked the beginning of an intensified anti-Serb campaign manifested in

 2    day-to-day life as well, which Raskovic described as an aggression of

 3    consciousness?  It came to expression in the streets, at workplaces,

 4    through the press, posters, and so on, and even at the administrative

 5    level, which confirmed that this was an official policy towards the Serbs

 6    because there was massive firings from the state administration, and

 7    especially the police, and even from economic enterprises.  There were

 8    pogroms, unlawful arrests that their own officials are even now talking

 9    about, the disappearance of individuals.

10            JUDGE MAY:  The witness must have the chance to answer questions,

11    insofar as these are questions.  They sound more like speeches.

12            But do you agree that after the elections in 1990, there was an

13    intensified anti-Serb campaign?  That's the real point that's being made.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the policy of the HDZ, that

15    Croatia be defined as a national state of Croats and the Serbs get the

16    status of a national minority.  And the Serb representatives interpreted

17    this as being anti-Serb.

18            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   I'm not asking you about the interpretations of a political view.

20    I'm asking you what you know about the dismissals, about the arrests,

21    about the disappearance of individuals, about killings, repression.

22            JUDGE MAY:  Let the witness answer.

23            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   So according to you, nobody got killed.

25            JUDGE MAY:  The witness must answer.  Let him answer.

Page 13837












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Page 13838

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as firing is concerned, from

 2    jobs, most dismissals occurred in the state administration, and especially

 3    in the police.  Then people were also dismissed from other companies, and

 4    the Serbs saw this as being directed against them.  Serbs were losing

 5    jobs.  The Croatian authority justified this with the fact that the

 6    economy required it, that enterprises were not profitable.  As for

 7    killings, murders, in 1990, I don't -- I'm not able to remember which

 8    murders you're referring to.

 9            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   So you don't know anything about what was happening in Croatia in

11    1990?

12       A.   Many things were happening.

13       Q.   What I mean is, you don't know of any murders, unlawful arrests,

14    deportations, disappearance?  You know nothing about that, do you?

15       A.   I can't remember any murders.

16       Q.   That's fine.  You don't know anything about the murder of Serbs in

17    1990 anywhere in Croatia.

18            Tell me, then, please, since you want to stick to this political

19    level and you don't want to go into these concrete and banal events, such

20    as killings, that you never heard of --

21       A.   I'm telling you what I know.  Remind me.  Perhaps you know

22    something I don't know.

23       Q.   As far as I know, you had such a killing in your own family.

24       A.   That was in August 1991.

25       Q.   You probably don't remember that either.

Page 13839

 1       A.   You're asking me about 1990?

 2       Q.   Yes.  I'm asking you first about 1990.  Later on, I'll ask you

 3    about 1991.  But your answer is very important to me about 1990, that you

 4    don't know anything.

 5       A.   I don't remember any killings from 1990.

 6       Q.   Is it true that among the moves whereby such a discriminatory

 7    attitude towards the Serbian people was to be justified, and the abolition

 8    of their status, the changes in the constitution, was the census -- I have

 9    the data, but I would like to hear your interpretation.  According to

10    Croatian data, in the 1991 census, there were 581.663 inhabitants of Serb

11    ethnicity, or 12.2 per cent.  And according to Serb calculations, there

12    were 750.000 of them, or just over that, which would mean just over 17 per

13    cent.  What is your knowledge regarding these data, and was this an

14    instance of manipulation that I mentioned at the beginning of my question?

15       A.   I know the following:  The census documents from 1991 for the area

16    of a part of SAO Krajina were submitted to the federal statistical

17    institute.

18       Q.   I'm not talking about the technique.

19       A.   But it was not submitted to the Croatian republican institute.

20    Secondly, it was noted that many Yugoslavs were actually Serbs.  So I

21    accept the statistics as they were, but there is also another

22    interpretation that most of those who declared themselves to be Yugoslavs

23    were actually Serb, and there were also some interpretations that some

24    Serbs did not dare state their ethnicity as being Serbian.  There was

25    reference to that too in those days.  That was the discussion with respect

Page 13840

 1    to the census.

 2       Q.   So you know nothing else about it?

 3       A.   I know what was happening in Krajina, and I know that the census

 4    documents were not submitted to Zagreb but to Belgrade.

 5       Q.   I would say that you must have known more.  For instance,

 6    regarding the referendum that you organised and in which the Serbs in

 7    Croatia participated, how many votes were counted at that referendum?

 8       A.   There is a report of the commission, so it wasn't a referendum.  A

 9    legal provision was applied on the right of citizens to declare their

10    ethnicity --

11       Q.   I'm not asking you about that.  I'm just asking you about the

12    number of votes.

13       A.   The Serbs living in Croatia took part, but also Serbs living in

14    Serbia and elsewhere in the world - in France or other countries - so

15    there were about -- more than 500.000 votes cast.  Those were the results

16    filed by the commission.

17       Q.   It seems to me that you should know better than I do the exact

18    figure.  As far as I can remember, I saw it only once.  There were 570

19    something thousand votes.

20       A.   It seems to me it was 530.000.

21       Q.   We'll find the exact figure.  That shouldn't be a problem.  Maybe

22    your memory is not quite as good as mine, which of course is no wonder.

23    But the number of those who cast their votes, doesn't that number seem to

24    be much closer to the census figure?  Because, as you know, only the

25    inhabitants of age cast their vote, so the real number must have been

Page 13841

 1    greater.

 2       A.   Let me say that it is not quite certain that the process was

 3    technically correct, and some doubts lingered as to whether people outside

 4    Krajina were not counted twice in that report.  But that was just a doubt.

 5    That's as much as I know about the commission's report.  However, as far

 6    as I know, the Serbian National Council accepted the commission in charge

 7    of this process and these were the data presented to the public.

 8       Q.   Tell me, Mr. Croatia-061, are you now accusing the Serbian

 9    National Council from that period of having forged the number of people

10    who cast their votes in the referendum, that that wasn't actually correct?

11       A.   As I have taken an oath to tell the truth in this Tribunal, I'm

12    telling you of what I know, and I'm not presenting anything but that, but

13    my knowledge about these things.

14       Q.   And your knowledge tells you that those were actually votes by

15    Serbs from France and other countries.  I don't remember what other

16    countries you mentioned.  So not just Serbs living in Croatia.

17       A.   That's right.  The Serbs in Croatia, the Serbs originating from

18    Croatia, and their descendents in Serbia, and in the diaspora, Serbs

19    originally from Croatia.  I mentioned France specifically because I know

20    exactly that reports came in from Paris.

21            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, for your assistance, we are

22    talking about the report on the referendum, tab 11 of Exhibit 351, and

23    it's actually -- mentioned 567.317 people, so about 567.000.

24            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   As you obviously now remember better, allegedly remember better

Page 13842

 1    the facts now than when they actually happened, do you also remember that

 2    there was an initiative to form a Croatian Orthodox Church which existed

 3    very briefly only during the days of Pavelic's NDH, independent state of

 4    Croatia?

 5       A.   I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.

 6       Q.   Do you remember that there was an idea to form a Croatian Orthodox

 7    Church, such as existed only during the time of Pavelic's NDH?

 8       A.   There was talk about it as being the intention of the new Croatian

 9    authorities.

10       Q.   And you know nothing about that?  "I know that this was said to

11    have been the intention of the Croatian authorities."  Why are you again

12    speaking indefinitely?  Who was it who was saying this?

13       A.   I can't remember exactly who was saying it.  I know there was a

14    man originally from Drnis who spoke about this.  He said that he intended

15    to form such a church.  I don't know with precision.  I can't tell you,

16    because I don't know exactly.  I do know that such a man existed.  What

17    his religion was, whether he was an Orthodox, a Catholic, a Serbo-Croat, I

18    don't know exactly, but I do know that he specifically spoke about it, and

19    also there was talk about it among the Serbs, that the new Croatian

20    authority intends to form such a church.  That is as much as I know from

21    that time.

22       Q.   I have been given a quotation here of the late Jovan Raskovic,

23    academician, and I will quote him.  He says:

24            "The Serb people feels all this as a call to history for

25    recidivism.  It spreads new apprehensions and old doubts.  After all this,

Page 13843

 1    the Croato-Serbian relationships acquire a new aspect of paranoia.  The

 2    Croatian paranoia diminishes the Ustasha genocide and the Serb is renewing

 3    the genocidal memories."

 4            Were you on good terms with Raskovic in those days?

 5       A.   I can say that Raskovic did speak along those lines at the time.

 6       Q.   And did you share that opinion too?

 7       A.   I expressed my opinion in public.  What you have quoted is a

 8    conglomeration of views.

 9       Q.   Shall we move a little faster when we talk about this climate?  So

10    before the elections in 1990, long before the elections - and I'm talking

11    about this wave of nationalism - do you remember the event of the 15th of

12    March, 1990 - the elections took place later - that Ustasha symbols were

13    inscribed on the Serbian Orthodox Church premises in Zagreb, the capital

14    of Croatia?

15       A.   There were incidents of that kind.

16       Q.   So this was in March 1990, during a period when you say that the

17    communists were in power in Croatia and they held the situation in

18    control.  But the communists did not control the Ustashas, certainly.  And

19    do you remember that on the 16th of March, 1990, the inhabitants of

20    Biograd On The Sea, a small tourist town close to Zadar, who read the

21    Belgrade press were left without it because the entire delivery of press

22    was confiscated and thrown away, and a report to that effect appeared in

23    the press, you could have read that, on the 17th and 18th of March, 1990.

24       A.   I do remember some incidents of that kind in Primosten, and the

25    intolerant attitude of the locals towards tourists from Serbia.  There

Page 13844

 1    were quite a lot of reports to that effect in the media.

 2       Q.   And do you remember that on the 30th of August, 1990, volunteer

 3    youth units of the civil defence of Croatia - you remember that? -

 4    volunteer youth units of the civil defence of Croatia, which were joined

 5    by persons from 15 to 30 years of age, started to form in local communes

 6    and municipalities in the city of Zagreb.  Such units began to be formed

 7    there on the 30th of August.  Do you remember?

 8       A.   Yes.  I heard of the formation of such volunteer units.  I don't

 9    remember exactly as of which date.

10       Q.   Well, what did you hear about it?  Did you have any knowledge

11    about it?  You just heard about it, without anything more specific?

12       A.   It was said that this marked the beginning of the formation of

13    armed groups at the beginning of 1991.  It was said that those groups were

14    being armed and that in this way the HDZ was arming its members and

15    creating its own army.  That was the explanation given in January.  Those

16    were the interpretations.  There was even a photograph of Branimir Glavas,

17    from Osijek - I don't exactly remember the date - showing a pistol stuck

18    in his belt.

19       Q.   Do you remember, for example, a more large-scale event:  800

20    faithful and priests, on the 24th of October, in Zagreb - this is the

21    Serbian Orthodox Church of the Holy Transfiguration - demanded protection

22    because of increased attacks?  800 of them demanding protection in October

23    1990?  Did you know anything about that?

24       A.   I know from Metropolitan Jovan that he had to leave Zagreb, that

25    he couldn't remain in his eparchy because of these developments.

Page 13845












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Page 13846

 1       Q.   And do you remember, then, with respect to such parallel

 2    paramilitary formations that were being formed called Tjelesni Zdrug, the

 3    Croatian National Guards Corps, the Sokola Guards, volunteer youth units

 4    that I've already mentioned, et cetera, et cetera?  Do you remember all

 5    these organised formations, when they started to act, what their purpose

 6    was, and what was going on, and whether anyone was disturbed as a result

 7    of this?

 8       A.   I know when the Croatian National Guard Corps was formed as an

 9    army of the Croatian government.  That took place in mid-1991, in the

10    spring.  And then there were others, as far as I know, the so-called

11    unarmed youth organisations and the ones you mentioned.  You mentioned the

12    various names.  There were rumours of that.  People were talking about it.

13    But I didn't see it personally in Krajina, where I lived.

14       Q.   So you want to say that you know nothing about that either?

15       A.   I heard about it, and I know what -- as much as I heard.

16       Q.   All right.  Fine.  Do you remember that the Croatian Assembly, in

17    1990, passed an amendment to the Croatian constitution, abolishing the

18    Cyrillic script?

19       A.   I have already said that this unleashed great polemics, this

20    amendment to the constitution that was adopted on the 25th of July, 1995,

21    and that we were very much against this.  And I took part in this

22    political resistance against having amendments of this kind adopted.  And

23    I said that the Assembly, the Sabor in Srb, was organised in order to

24    demonstrate resistance to the adoption of amendments of that kind.  And at

25    that time, we saw this as being outvoting, the majority voting over the

Page 13847

 1    minority in the Croatian parliament.

 2       Q.   All right.  Well, as we're on the subject of the constitution of

 3    Croatia, is it true that the Croatian authorities did not uphold any of

 4    the amendments that the Serbs favoured in the constitution?

 5       A.   Well, my knowledge on that score is the following:  First, that

 6    Raskovic was elected to the commission for preparing the constitution,

 7    drafting the constitution of Croatia.  I don't think it took part in its

 8    work, though.  And secondly, that the municipalities of Northern Dalmatia

 9    and Lika sent in a draft for the statute of SAO Krajina to the Croatian

10    authorities as a proposal for discussing the new Croatian constitution.

11    Now, how many other amendments there were, I don't know.  There were other

12    amendments tabled by deputies from other parties.

13       Q.   All right.  So you don't seem to be able to answer my question --

14       A.   I apologise.  What was the question?

15       Q.   The question was:  Is it true that the new Croatian authorities

16    did not introduce a single amendment tabled and proposed by the Serbs, and

17    the main one, of course, was that the Serbs in the new constitution should

18    retain their status of nation, as they had enjoyed in the previous

19    constitution, but many other amendments too and that not a single one of

20    them was adopted.  Is that true or not?

21       A.   I don't know how many amendments there were, but it is true that

22    the Croatian parliament, in passing the constitution, as was popularly

23    said, threw the Serbs out of the Croatian constitution.  That is true, and

24    we did oppose this fervently.  We engaged in political debate and

25    discussion and tabled a number of proposals, but none of that was taken

Page 13848

 1    into account.  However, there were other possibilities open as well, which

 2    means that there were discussions about a so-called proposal for cultural

 3    autonomy, which wasn't implemented at the time, and some other models

 4    which were not put into practice either, due to the escalation of

 5    incidents and raising of political tensions and conflicts to the level of

 6    incidents and - how shall I put it? - armed provocations as well, which

 7    meant this was a parallel structure which was burgeoning in Krajina, and

 8    that contributed, by the same token, to the fact that there was not a

 9    climate of tolerance for discussing the adoption of the new Croatian

10    constitution.  I'm not amnestying, if I can put it that way, this kind of

11    nationalism at that time and auto-centrism and the authorities that

12    brought in the new Croatian constitution without taking into account the

13    views of the minority, or rather, the Serb people in Croatia, which had

14    been a constituent peoples.

15       Q.   Well, all right.  In this series of discriminatory laws, for

16    example, the law on basic education, primary education, was that such that

17    it did not provide for tuition for children of Serb ethnicity?  And then

18    there was the law on education and the languages of the nations and

19    nationalities.  It provided tuition for Hungarians, Ruthenians, Armenians

20    and all the rest, and not the Serb language in Serb schools.

21       A.   This we saw as a perfidious policy on the part of the HDZ and the

22    majority in the Croatian parliament to change the name of the language and

23    the standard language that they called Croatian -- the literary language

24    of Croatia, to impose it to the Serb people in Croatia.

25       Q.   What was the language called up until that time?  What was the

Page 13849

 1    name of the language?

 2       A.   That language underwent a historical evolution.

 3       Q.   In Croatia, it was known as Croato-Serbian and in Serbian it was

 4    called Serbo-Croatian.

 5       A.   It was first called Croato-Serbian, then it was later on called by

 6    an unwieldy name, a very long formulation and construction, that in

 7    Croatia -- the language that was in use was Croatian, or Serbian, so

 8    Croatian literary language, which is called either the Croatian or the

 9    Serbian language, and then that formulation was changed and altered to say

10    that the Croatian literary language was in official use in Croatia.  So

11    this was a long period of time with different variations and adjustments

12    of the official language, as it was defined in Croatia, and this was

13    interpreted in different ways and it was indeed the imposition of one

14    particular variant of the language onto the Serbs as well.  So this one

15    variation was imposed on the Serbs and it was promoted by the ruling

16    parties in the Croatian parliament.

17       Q.   All right.  There were many other laws.  We mentioned them earlier

18    on.  Now, if we place all these laws into the context of the adoption of

19    fascist emblems and symbols of a state, of a country, abolishing the right

20    of the constituent peoples, the Serbs, the unlawful arming of paramilitary

21    units, arrests, killings, and similar occurrences, does that lead us to

22    the conclusion that the Croatian authorities promoted not only nationalism

23    in Croatia but fascism and a discriminatory approach to the Serbs in

24    Croatia, and did this lead to a great deal of unrest?  Did it upset the

25    Serbs?

Page 13850

 1       A.   This was all your terminology used at the time.

 2       Q.   Well, were they facts or were they terminology?  So who stirred up

 3    the people and caused disturbances with the arrests, killings,

 4    persecutions, dismissals, new laws, amendments to the constitution, and so

 5    on and so forth?  Were those facts or were they fabrications on the part

 6    of the Belgrade media?

 7       A.   Well, we can mention some basic facts there, three basic facts, in

 8    fact: The policy of the HDZ and the Croatian authorities, and their

 9    relationship toward the Serbs; then we have political resistance and

10    nonacquiescence of the Serbs with those kind of changes; and third, your

11    meddling in the conflict in such a way as to produce a greater conflict.

12    You fanned the flames of the conflict.

13       Q.   I don't know that anybody from Serbia provoked any incidents, and

14    if our interference in this very unwelcome turn of events -- well, whose

15    interference was there in 1971 and in 1941?  Was it also interference on

16    the part of the same people or not?

17            JUDGE MAY:  We don't need to go back then.  I think we've probably

18    finished for the day.  Let me add this:  Mr. Milosevic, you have six hours

19    left, if you want it, up to six hours.

20            Mr. Tapuskovic, we've considered your application, and we will

21    certainly grant you up to one hour to cross-examine this witness in due

22    course.

23            And half an hour for the re-examination.

24            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall abide by

25    your decision, of course, but I should like you to understand that all the

Page 13851

 1    material and documents that I have looked through and had in my hands is

 2    so extensive that I will, of course, do my best to get through it in one

 3    hour, but I do really think that we amicus should be given at least a

 4    little more time in this particular instance.  I will try to do my best,

 5    but --

 6            JUDGE MAY:  We've considered your application.  You've got an

 7    hour.  So tailor your examination accordingly.  We must let this witness

 8    go.  He's been giving evidence for about ten days.

 9            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but I assume that it is more

10    important to get to the bottom of things rather than release a witness.

11            JUDGE MAY:  Not at the expense -- one of our duties,

12    Mr. Tapuskovic, is to conduct a trial expeditiously, and that we must do.

13    Now, we'll have your application in mind.  We'll --

14            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, then, I'm not sure whether

15    I can perform my duty.  I really do have to ask myself whether to continue

16    in this position.

17            JUDGE MAY:  You have one hour.  Now, then, tomorrow morning,

18    please, 9.00.

19                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

20                          to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of

21                          December 2002, at 9.00 a.m.