1 Friday, 10 January 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we'd reached paragraphs 19 and 20 of the
8 summary. On the atlas Exhibit 336, page 37. Bileca referred to in
9 paragraph 19, the last sentence, can be found in square E-2, immediately
10 north of the lake border and thus north and slightly east of Trebinje.
11 WITNESS: ROBERT HAUSVICKA [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]
14 Q. Mr. Hausvicka, I think you either told us or were just about to
15 tell us that, following your confession or the account that you've given,
16 the officers, the JNA officers, told you that if you'd said that before,
17 you wouldn't be beaten, and you were then taken to Bileca barracks.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. On arrival at those barracks on the 22nd of October, were you
20 confined on a solitary basis? Were you tied to a bed?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What happened when soldiers, JNA soldiers there, passed by you?
23 What did they do to you?
24 A. When they brought me into that room or solitary confinement cell,
25 they tied my legs to the lower half of the bed and my arms to the upper
1 half of the bed. I don't know how long the guards beat me and took turns
2 in beating me on all parts of my body. As I was tied, I wasn't able to
3 defend myself, and they beat me all over my body.
4 Q. This was on a regular, daily basis for a period of time?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And during the first month of these beatings, were you taken for
7 interrogation by a Sergeant or Master Sergeant Stevic, who is a Serbian
8 security officer?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you in fact know this man yourself from earlier days?
11 A. I did know him from the JNA, the army, when I did my military
12 service on Mount Kopaonik. I think there was a ceremony to mark Security
13 Day that the army observed. I didn't meet him personally, but I saw him
14 there. He was there among the other officers who were attending the
16 Q. Of what corps was he a member?
17 A. As it was Security Day, I think he belonged to that branch of the
18 Armed Services, security.
19 Q. How many times did he interrogate you and, just in a sentence or
20 so because I don't want you to go more than necessary into this
21 distressing experience, in a sentence or so, how were you treated at
22 interrogation by him?
23 A. He interrogated me on several occasions, was very brutal and
24 violent towards me, which meant that he beat me too.
25 Q. How did such interrogations generally end and where did they end?
1 A. After the interrogations, I would be taken off to a toilet where
2 the guard would beat me up, and then at the next interrogation, the Staff
3 Sergeant Stevic asked me, "Are you smarter now, and will you be able to
4 give us smarter answers now?"
5 Q. That toilet to which you were taken, did you notice anything about
6 it and see any traces of something there?
7 A. Yes. There were traces of blood. There were traces of blood,
8 including my own blood, but I already found bloodstains there from
9 previous prisoners, I assume.
10 Q. What part of Yugoslavia did Stevic come from? Do you know?
11 A. He -- I think he was from the environs of Uzice because he
12 belonged to the Uzice Corps.
13 Q. While detained, were you also obliged to work under conditions of
14 forced labour?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What sort of tasks did you do?
17 A. We had to saw wood, and we had to load up trucks with various
18 furniture items, electrical goods, probably stolen goods that had been
19 looted from around Dubrovnik. We had to wash cars that had Dubrovnik
20 number plates on them, trucks, buses, passenger vehicles and so on, and
21 some officers even drove cars of this kind.
22 Q. In the course of forced labour, what methods of punishment or
23 enforcement were used on you and other prisoners?
24 A. During that kind of labour, we would be exposed to swear words,
25 they would spit at us, and let me just give you an illustration: We were
1 carrying something that was 200 kilos in weight, and we had to carry it up
2 to the third floor - a safe of some kind - and the military policemen beat
3 us with electric batons, and they would beat us on the head and the lower
4 parts of our body, and it's very difficult for me to talk about that.
5 Q. I'll take no further details from you, but just because the Judges
6 may not be familiar with this particular item, an electric baton, is that
7 something that releases an electric shock into the person by whom it is
9 A. Well, actually, you don't beat with that kind of baton but it has
10 two wires at the top of it, and when you press somebody's body with it, it
11 causes an electric shock, especially if placed on the head or the lower
12 extremities. Then they cause a great deal of pain.
13 Q. How many detainees at Bileca? What was the percentage of
14 civilians and combatants and what were the ages of the people, please?
15 A. In Bileca, what I saw and what I know is that there were about 200
16 detainees. Civilians and fighters, the ratio was, say, 80 to 20 per cent.
17 And their ages, the ages of the detainees or, rather, those civilians who
18 were there was between 50 to 89, 90 years of age.
19 Q. Were combatants and civilians treated similarly or differently by
20 the JNA?
21 A. They were treated the same. For them, we were all Ustashas and
23 Q. The civilians, were they beaten, to your knowledge?
24 A. Yes, just like me.
25 Q. And you can, if asked, give accounts of what you were told by
1 others of the particularly savage and humiliating beatings that they
2 received. If asked.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did the ICRC, the International Committee of the Red Cross, visit
5 the prison while you were there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. For the Judges, if you will, please, an account of what was done
8 before those visits and what was done in the course of them.
9 A. Well, when the first visits came, I was hidden away from the
10 International Red Cross.
11 Q. Later?
12 A. Later on, when they registered me with the ICRC, the interpreters
13 were mostly from Belgrade, and we didn't have any confidence and trust in
14 them. We didn't think that they would do their job properly and translate
15 properly to the International Red Cross representatives, so once the Red
16 Cross had arrived, when she would do the interpreting, the prisoners would
17 be beaten badly. And one of the detainees knew three languages very well;
18 we'd do our own translating, so the representative of the Red Cross was
19 astounded when we told her our story.
20 Q. The beatings that occurred, did these occur after the ICRC visits
21 and in respect of what had been said to the Red Cross?
22 A. Well, I can't be sure of that, but we assumed so.
23 Q. What happened to food and other aid packages provided by the Red
25 A. When we received a package while the Red Cross was there, and they
1 would spend an hour with us, what we managed to swallow and eat during
2 that time that they were there, well and good. All the rest would be
3 taken away once they'd left, by the guards.
4 Q. Was there also a United States citizen by the name of Marin Pesa
5 detained? Was he revealed to the ICRC or not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sorry. My mistake. The question: Was he hidden first and
8 subsequently revealed to them?
9 A. Yes, just like me. He was hidden first, and when the
10 International Red Cross turned up, we secretly managed to tell them that
11 he was there too, so they looked for him and then he was revealed to them.
12 Q. In November 1991, did you sign a form of confession? If so,
13 explain how that came about.
14 A. Well, after those intensive interrogations, one day they brought a
15 book in with about 50 pages, to sign and to say that that was my
16 confession. I didn't have an opportunity to read through it all, and I
17 just signed.
18 Q. Was it in any sense a voluntary document of yours?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were you told that as a result of that document, or for other
21 reasons, you were going to be tried for war crimes?
22 A. Not the officers themselves but the guards. They beat me because
23 they read in the document that I had killed and slaughtered Serb children
24 in Dubrovnik and that I had extracted their eyes and cut off their ears
25 and did things like that in the Mokosica region. That's what I know about
2 Q. All of which was made up and you were forced to sign; is that
4 A. Of course.
5 Q. Was any of the prisoners there, to your knowledge, ever taken for
7 A. No.
8 Q. January 1992, was there a short-lived change of management at the
9 Bileca camp when the Uzice Corps changed to the Rijeka Corps, and the new
10 commander, a man called Raseta, treated detainees more appropriately?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Some ten days later, was there somebody called Captain Biga who
14 A. Captain Biga was there in the camp all the time throughout that
16 Q. How did he then feature ten days after Raseta took over? What
18 A. Well, when this man Raseta came, he behaved quite differently
19 towards us. So it was easier to live in the camp. But I suppose that
20 when they learnt that he was doing some tasks that he had to do and that
21 our conditions were slightly better at that time, they replaced him with a
22 man called Ljubisic, Sergeant Ljubisic.
23 Q. And did conditions return to what they had before?
24 A. Yes. And perhaps they were even worse.
25 Q. In mid-April 1992 or thereabouts, were you moved with a group of
1 about 70 prisoners to Morinje camp, which we can see on Exhibit 337,
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. While that map is being produced, remind the learned Judges of its
5 location. What were the conditions like in Morinje camp? Better, worse,
6 or about the same as before?
7 MR. NICE: I can make mine available, if it helps. It doesn't
8 matter. It's marked. It's probably more convenient that it is.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The conditions were worse than in
10 the Bileca camp.
11 MR. NICE:
12 Q. Morinje, as we can see and as the Judges will have in mind, lies
13 in Montenegro on one of the parts of Boka Kotorska, on the western edge of
14 it. It's marked in blue.
15 Conditions were worse. In what way were they worse?
16 A. We were in a room. It might have been 50 or 60 square metres in
17 size. It was a warehouse of some kind. The floor was a wooden floor. We
18 had to lie on the floor, and we just had a bucket in which to urinate, and
19 if we wanted to defecate, we would have to go outside and be beaten. So
20 we didn't go outside, and we defecated in the bucket in that room.
21 Q. Paragraph 28. I think you were subjected to various indignities.
22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to ask this witness to
23 relive the distressing experiences himself. There were mock executions,
24 forced boxing matches, singing of Serbian nationalist songs, and any
25 mistake in such things as the use of a guard's name would be sanctioned by
1 a beating.
2 Q. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When guards came into the room, did you all have to jump to your
5 feet and then look at your own feet?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That also could lead to arbitrary beatings by the guards?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The percentage of civilians to combatant detainees at this camp
10 was similar to or different from that at Bileca?
11 A. Yes. The ratio was more or less the same, but for them we were
12 all Ustashas and cut-throats.
13 Q. Were there a significant number of elderly men there from Croatia
14 or from Bosnia?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you see that same Master Sergeant Ljubisic who had been at
17 Morinje -- at Bileca also at the Morinje camp?
18 A. Yes. He would come on several occasions with guards from Bileca
19 who came there to beat us.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues]... the transfer of detainees
21 between these two camps to your knowledge?
22 A. As far as I know -- well, actually, I can tell you my experience
23 with those transfers. We were boarded up onto a bus. We had to sit three
24 per seat, and if there wasn't any room for sitting down, you had to kneel.
25 Three or four guards got into the bus. The journey lasted about two
1 hours. They jumped on us, ran about, bit us, hit us, spat on us until we
2 reached Morinje. When we got to the camp, I didn't know I actually had
3 arrived in a camp, but from the road to the barracks where we were set up,
4 there were about 300 metres and we had to run the gauntlet. There were
5 soldiers on both sides with different objects in their hands. They had
6 rifles, shovels, and things like that and we had to run the gauntlet for
7 those 300 metres. They would beat us, we fell down, helped each other up,
8 until we got to this shed. So we were really beaten up badly by the time
9 we got to the shed.
10 Q. The guards and soldiers who beat you at the various locations
11 you've described, what ethnicity or what nationality were they?
12 A. They were mostly Serbs and Montenegrins.
13 Q. Were you exchanged on the 2nd of July in Cavtat? Did you join the
14 exchange as a prisoner? Did you rejoin the Croatian Special Police Unit,
15 leaving in mid-1994 for reasons that you've set out in your summary?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. One other matter of detail that I ought to have covered: Going
18 right back to Mokosica and the killings at the shelter. If I haven't
19 asked you this before, on that day, how were you dressed? Were you in
21 A. No.
22 Q. How many men from your unit were there in the shelter at that
24 A. I wasn't there. I was a hundred metres away from the shelter.
25 But when I got there, I found them all standing in front of the shelter,
1 picking up what was left of those people. So that I can't confirm whether
2 they were actually in the shelter or somewhere else.
3 Q. But how many combatants altogether were there in that shelter,
4 roughly, at the time that you were using it?
5 A. There were exactly five of us.
6 MR. NICE: That's all I ask of this witness. I would invite the
7 Chamber to have in mind during cross-examination that any
8 cross-examination about the experiences that he suffered should have a
9 specific and valid forensic purpose before it's permitted.
10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, let me understand that. That he's not to be
11 asked questions about his sufferings? Of course the Trial Chamber has in
12 mind the sensitivity involved in this, but I'm not sure what else you have
13 in mind.
14 MR. NICE: That's all I have in mind. I mean, I think this is a
15 witness who suffered gravely in the way he described, and the consequences
16 for him in giving evidence are perhaps obvious, but I respectfully invite
17 you to have that in mind.
18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you hear the point that is made, that
19 this is a witness who has suffered, and I'm sure you have in mind the need
20 to deal sensitively with any cross-examination. Yes.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hausvicka, you're testifying about the year
23 1991. All the events that took place were in that year; is that right?
24 A. 1991 and 1992.
25 Q. Yes. And the beginning of 1992. In all those events, do you have
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 any idea what the events in the vicinity of Dubrovnik have to do with
3 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I don't quite understand.
4 Q. Do you assume that those events in the surroundings of Dubrovnik
5 have anything to do with Serbia? What is the connection between those
6 events and Serbia?
7 A. What I lived through, the JNA, with Serbia, attacked Dubrovnik.
8 Q. Oh, I see. So you're saying the JNA, with Serbia, attacked
10 A. May I correct my answer: The JNA with Serbian volunteers.
11 Q. And those Serbian volunteers, were they from Serbia or perhaps
12 from some other republic?
13 A. My personal experience tells me that they were mostly from Serbia.
14 Q. Among Serbian volunteers from Serbia, who did you specifically see
15 in Dubrovnik or its surroundings?
16 A. When I was in captivity in Bileca, I was questioned by the guards
17 and the officers, and they were all from Serbia.
18 Q. And were they soldiers, officers, non-commissioned officers of the
19 JNA, or members of some sort of formation from Serbia?
20 A. They were officers and reservists of the JNA.
21 Q. Do you know that in 1991, the year you're testifying about, the
22 SFRY still existed as a state, that the Yugoslav People's Army was in
23 existence as the armed force of that state, that it was not subordinated
24 to any single republic but, rather, to the federal state. It was the
25 Yugoslav People's Army and that you were in conflict with the JNA in the
1 area of Dubrovnik. Serbia is quite a long way from you.
2 A. Serbia and Montenegro border with Dubrovnik.
3 Q. We know geography well, so let's not go into that. But let us
4 look into these events a little. There are documents to show that as
5 early as January 1991, there were illegal supplies of armaments arriving
6 at Dubrovnik airport.
7 A. I am not aware of that, but as far as I know, there were no
8 weapons in Dubrovnik, not even in September and October of 1991.
9 Q. And do you know that for a whole decade there were no military
10 forces in Dubrovnik because it is a tourist resort, that the closest
11 garrison was the Trebinje garrison which is in Bosnia-Herzegovina or,
12 rather, Herzegovina?
13 A. Yes, I do know that, but I have to point out that there were no
14 soldiers in October 1991 either.
15 Q. Well, tell me, then, who was it that was opening fire from the
16 area of Dubrovnik on members of the JNA along the border with Montenegro
17 and further up towards Ivanjica, which is also in the territory of
18 Herzegovina? It's not even in the territory of Croatia. Who was it that
19 was opening fire, and who was it that killed so many JNA soldiers in the
21 A. I think I am not qualified to answer that question, but as far as
22 I know, it was the other way round. It wasn't fire being opened from the
23 Croatian side but from Ivanjica and the area of Montenegro.
24 Q. Do you recollect that the first soldiers killed were those on the
25 border with Montenegro within the territory of Montenegro, then in Ravno
1 in the territory of Herzegovina, that commemorations were held in
2 Montenegro at the time because of those killings, and that 161 soldiers
3 were killed in those events, 161 soldiers from Montenegro. Who killed
4 those people?
5 A. I think that you're wrong. I think that what you're talking
6 about, 161 soldiers, I think this happened much later, when the most
7 intensive attacks were launched against Dubrovnik. I was in captivity at
8 the time and I'm not qualified to answer those questions.
9 Q. Very well. But before you were captured, a moment ago Mr. Nice
10 asked you whether you were wearing a uniform when you were captured. He
11 didn't ask you whether you were carrying a weapon. You were carrying a
12 weapon, weren't you?
13 A. When I was captured? I was in uniform and I was carrying a
15 Q. That was what I had assumed. So you were in uniform and you were
16 carrying a weapon when you were captured.
17 A. Yes, I did, because I was a member of the special police at the
18 time, in Dubrovnik.
19 Q. And up to the events that you're testifying about before you were
20 captured, in which combat operations did you take part against the JNA in
21 the area?
22 A. Combat operations against JNA were not possible in that area
23 because we were shelled on a daily basis by the JNA. So not a single
24 shell was fired in the direction of the JNA.
25 Q. So you're claiming that until you were captured, no one opened
1 fire from Dubrovnik on the JNA.
2 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying regarding my area. But I am not
3 qualified to say what happened in other areas because I wasn't there.
4 Q. And do you remember that the army, over radio Herceg-Novi, which
5 is very well-received in Dubrovnik, kept repeating the message not to open
6 fire on the army and that not a single bullet would be fired if there is
7 no fire against the JNA? It launched these appeals for fire not to be
8 opened against the JNA. Isn't that right?
9 A. I don't think you're right, because you can't receive Herceg-Novi
10 in Dubrovnik. And secondly, I don't know about such appeals, and I think
11 that nobody fired at the army, and the army did what it did in every
12 village that it entered, from Konavle to Primorje. Either 50 per cent of
13 the villages were burnt down or they were entirely burnt down.
14 Q. Are you claiming that, without any cause or provocation, the army
15 went around, opening fire on civilian buildings, that nobody opened fire
16 at the army, and that nothing was happening against the army?
17 A. Essentially, yes. There may have been instances of certain
18 frontal clashes, but as far as I know, in the area in which I was, the
19 army was free to walk through any village. No resistance was put up, and
20 whichever village they entered in my part was burnt to the ground.
21 Q. For instance, it is well known that the army entered Cavtat and
22 that Cavtat remained completely intact. Wasn't that right?
23 A. By then I was already detained, so I don't know. I do know that
24 the village of Zvekovica, just above Cavtat, was burned to the ground.
25 Q. But was there any fighting there?
1 A. I can't give you a precise answer because I wasn't there.
2 Q. Very well. Since you're talking about 1991 and the beginning of
3 1992, that was the period while Croatia was still not internationally
4 recognised, is it true to say that the JNA had every right to be in the
5 territory of Yugoslavia, which means Croatia as well as part of
6 Yugoslavia, and that that was its constitutional obligation?
7 A. I think that by then, there was already a referendum on the
8 secession of Yugoslavia, and I think that the army had no need to be
9 there. You said yourself that Dubrovnik was a tourist resort. And I
10 think that Dubrovnik was not ready for all this, because we believed that
11 our neighbours were clever enough and that they would never contemplate
12 attacking such a pearl as Dubrovnik.
13 Q. As far as I can see from my documents, there was an order not to
14 capture Dubrovnik, and Dubrovnik never was captured, as you know well.
15 A. On the 6th of December, Dubrovnik was defended. Had it been
16 captured, I don't know what would have happened. But on the 6th of
17 December, it was saved. But as for that order, I was detained, and I
18 don't know anything about them.
19 Q. And how was Dubrovnik defended?
20 A. Again, I'm saying what I heard. About 20 brave men of Dubrovnik
21 defended Dubrovnik.
22 Q. So you're claiming that the army attacked Dubrovnik, but some 20
23 brave men managed to defend it? Is that your story?
24 A. My story is that 20 men were forced to defend Dubrovnik from the
1 Q. I see. So the army criminally attacked Dubrovnik in the aim of
2 capturing it but it didn't succeed in doing so because it was defended by
3 20 brave men. Is that your story?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Very well. A moment ago when Mr. Nice asked you what ethnicity
6 JNA members were, you said that they were Serbs and Montenegrins.
7 A. That's not right.
8 Q. How were you able to establish that they were Serbs and
9 Montenegrins? Did you ask them? Did they tell you that? On what basis
10 did you establish that?
11 A. First of all, I said that most of them were Serbs and
12 Montenegrins, because we didn't even know the names of some of the guards.
13 But we knew some names, and the names of those we knew were mostly Serbs
14 and Montenegrins.
15 Q. And do you know that the JNA was composed of representatives of
16 all nationalities of the former SFRY? Even in those days, even then when
17 Croatia proclaimed its independence, there were still Croats in the JNA,
18 not to say how many Macedonians there were, how many Hungarians,
19 Albanians, Romanians, Ruthenians and other ethnicities. Do you know that
20 the JNA consisted of representatives of all ethnicities?
21 A. Yes, I did know that, but when I was captured, the guards who beat
22 us and who did what they did to us, those who introduced themselves were
23 mostly Serbs and Montenegrins.
24 Q. Very well. Yesterday, you said that when you were arrested, a man
25 asked you whether you knew him. Is that right? And first of all, you
1 didn't recognise him, and then later on you did recognise him. Is that
3 A. Yes. He wore a beard. And I was badly beaten up, so I wasn't all
4 there. And when he asked me whether I knew him, I couldn't recognise him
5 straight away, but a minute or two later, I recollected and I said, "Yes,
6 I know. You're Pero Miljevic," and he said, "Yes, I am Pero Miljevic,"
7 and I knew him personally from Dubrovnik.
8 Q. I didn't quite hear you well, what you said at the end. So he's a
9 man from Dubrovnik, is he?
10 A. Yes, he is.
11 Q. And he wore a beard?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Do you know that no one in the JNA wears a beard?
14 A. I did serve in the JNA so that I do know that you have to be
15 freshly shaved every morning, clean-shaven, but he had a JNA uniform on,
16 so I assumed he was a JNA reservist.
17 Q. And were there other men there who were locals? You just said
18 that he came from Dubrovnik.
19 A. Yes. There were other men I knew. Some of them not by name.
20 Some were from Dubrovnik, some from Trebinje, some from Bileca, but in any
21 event, they were all wearing JNA uniforms, and my acquaintance with them
22 developed in the Trebinje barracks.
23 Q. Very well. Do you know that in the former SFRY, most of the
24 reservists who had a military assignment kept a uniform at home so that
25 when they were called up, they could put them on and report to wherever
1 they were assigned to. Do you know that most of them had such uniforms?
2 A. Yes, I do know that. And when they called -- they were called up,
3 they probably put them on.
4 Q. So was this the JNA or was it a paramilitary formation that
5 happened to be near Dubrovnik? Because the JNA, when it called up
6 reservists, it didn't form any local units. You served in the JNA, so you
7 know that. For instance, as far as I understand, you did your military
8 service somewhere in Serbia.
9 A. Yes, in Sombor and Kopaonik.
10 Q. And I, for instance, did my military service in Zadar. So you
11 from Croatia served in Serbia, and me from Serbia, I served in Croatia, in
12 Zadar. Quite a long way away, actually.
13 So in your opinion, was this a regular JNA unit or a paramilitary
14 unit? That's what I'm asking you.
15 A. I don't know. I don't understand these military formations. In
16 my view, they were JNA reservists. They were all wearing JNA uniforms and
17 insignia, and they were in the barracks, because if they hadn't been
18 members, they couldn't have been in the barracks.
19 Q. And do you know that the JNA, as it was placing under control
20 certain parts of the territory where conflicts had broken out, Mostar,
21 Capljina, Stolac, and then also in the area around Slano, which it placed
22 under its control as it did Cavtat and so on, that not a single of these
23 towns was destroyed or damaged while the JNA was there but that all those
24 places were damaged later on in conflicts when the JNA withdrew from those
25 areas. Are you aware of that?
1 A. Let me answer with respect to one particular place, because I
2 didn't go to Mostar, Stolac, and Capljina for a long time, so I can't say.
3 But when the JNA entered Slano, I was still not captured and fire was
4 being set to buildings in Slano and it was burned down entirely. I can
5 tell you that the same applies to Osojnik and some other places. Cavtat
6 fared a little better, I don't know why, but all the other places
7 surrounding Dubrovnik were more or less burnt to the ground.
8 Q. And are you claiming that the JNA was not exposed in the area to
9 strong activity by paramilitary units of Croatia?
10 A. Yes. That is what I'm claiming for that period.
11 Q. And do you know that in that period of time where you say there
12 were no formations, and not only in that period time but even earlier,
13 that throughout Croatia, JNA barracks were blocked, electricity and water
14 supplies cut off, fire was opened at the barracks, soldiers and officers
15 killed. Do you know how many soldiers and officers were killed in those
16 blocked barracks who hadn't even left their barracks?
17 A. What I do know I know from the media, from the radio and
18 television. As far as I know, in the barracks that were blocked, the
19 troops were asked to withdraw. And whenever the officers agreed to do
20 that, they were allowed to go home unscathed. That is as far as I can
21 remember, but I personally was not present in any of those barracks to be
22 able to claim either way.
23 Q. So you don't know anything about what was happening all over
24 Croatia as a result of the attacks of paramilitary formations on the JNA.
25 A. I can't tell you anything specifically, but as far as I know about
1 paramilitary forces in Croatia, I think there's no need to talk about such
2 forces because they never existed.
3 Q. I have some information here. I don't know whether you're
4 familiar with it. And let me check it out with you, whether it is
5 correct. At the very beginning of those operations, in a locality called
6 Krivi Do - you're familiar with it, in Dubrovnik? - a military conscript
7 from Niksic who was under the influence of alcohol and who had just learnt
8 that his brother had died, had been killed, that he killed some innocent
9 civilians, mostly elderly people, and he was convicted to a 20-year prison
10 term. As you know, that is the maximum sentence according to the Yugoslav
11 law that was in force. Rather, 15 is the maximum, and 20 replaces the
12 death sentence. And his appeal was rejected, and he's still serving his
14 So, for instance, this is a case that I have documented here. Are
15 you aware of such an event?
16 A. I really haven't heard of a location called Krivi Do, and I really
17 don't know anything about that event.
18 Q. Tell me, please, then, do you know and is it true that the JNA
19 opened fire only on those buildings from which fire was opened at units of
20 the JNA?
21 A. I can tell you specifically about the area where I was. There was
22 no system in the shooting. Warehouses were fired at, civilian facilities,
23 churches. There was simply no order in the firing. There was just
24 firing, shooting, and destruction.
25 Q. When you described the killing of people by a shell where a police
1 car was standing nearby, are you claiming that you, the police and those
2 armed forces that you had in Dubrovnik, that as far as you know, at least,
3 they never opened fire on the army? Is that right?
4 A. I don't understand the question. Could you repeat it? Could you
5 be a little more specific?
6 Q. When were you captured, please?
7 A. On the 21st of October, 1991.
8 Q. Right. Up to the 21st of October, then, did you do any shooting,
9 you personally?
10 A. Not me personally, no.
11 Q. And who shot then?
12 A. In the region I was in, nobody shot at the positions of the JNA.
13 Q. All right. Tell me how many armed persons were in Dubrovnik at
14 the time.
15 A. Well, I would estimate that there were about a hundred.
16 Q. All right. And is it true that they shot from mortars,
17 anti-aircraft guns, and other artillery pieces at the JNA at that time?
18 Is that true or not?
19 A. Well, as far as I know, but let me be specific and concrete. For
20 the area I was in, there was quite certainly no shooting from any type of
21 weapon. The JNA positions were not shot at at all.
22 Q. So do you mean to say that you don't know that the JNA was shot at
23 from Dubrovnik from cannons and mortars?
24 A. At that time, no, there was no shooting from mortars.
25 Q. All right. Fine. Do you happen to know that after the arrival of
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13 English transcripts.
1 the peace forces into the protected safe area in Croatia, that the
2 situation in that part became highly complex and that additional
3 reinforcements, Croatian reinforcements, to the tune of 8.000 men, were
4 sent into the region? That is to say when the general conditions were
5 being stabilised, because there was constant provocations and losses and
6 casualties on the side of the JNA, although they were very reticent. Do
7 you know about that?
8 A. Well, not really.
9 Q. And don't you think that the whole situation around Dubrovnik had
10 as its main task to paint a media picture and be used by the media first
11 and foremost to promote this image against the JNA?
12 A. Well, I think the JNA painted its own picture by its acts, what it
13 did in Dubrovnik and its environs. It burnt the environs and damaged a
14 great deal of Dubrovnik. I think that that is sufficient -- a sufficient
15 picture painted by the JNA to show the world how it stood and where it
17 Q. All right. And is it true, do you know, that on the basis of an
18 agreement that was reached by the President of the FRY at the time and
19 Croatia, Dobrica Cosic and Dr. Tudjman in October 1992, along with the
20 presence of the representatives of UNPROFOR, the JNA withdrew from that
21 region and that this was taken note of and recognised by the members of
22 the United Nations as respect for the agreements that had been reached and
23 signed. Are you aware of that?
24 A. Well, I am aware of the fact that the JNA did withdraw sometime in
25 mid-1992. I don't know the exact date.
1 Q. And do you know that this entire area of Konavle, more than 20
2 years ago, was where the JNA set up the first defence line and built up a
3 series of warehouses and underground channels from which it was possible
4 to put up resistance to far superior forces? And this was all within the
5 concepts of the defence of Yugoslavia as a country at that time. That is
6 to say 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago. And that is where the
7 military had their army installations and that the JNA exclusively wished
8 to retain control over their military installations in that region, that
9 that's what its task was.
10 A. I really don't know that.
11 Q. All right, then. And do you know this: That it was precisely in
12 that region where those clashes took place later on that there were large
13 stockpiles of weapons in the warehouses of the Territorial Defence, in
14 keeping with the concept that I have just put forward, and that those
15 weapons were in fact used by all parties in the conflict?
16 A. Well, I do know one thing and that is that the weapons of the
17 Civil Defence forces were not in Dubrovnik because it was moved to the
18 barracks in Trebinje. I don't know exactly when, but I know that it was
19 sometime in the summer of 1991.
20 Q. And do you know that one of the basic aims of the JNA was to
21 evacuate the people and combat technology and materiel from the areas in
22 which it was subject to hostile enemy activity, and you yourself know
23 about the blockades of the barracks throughout Croatia that were effected,
24 that communications were cut and things like that done. So are you aware,
25 then, that above all, the JNA wanted to protect and defend its own people,
1 to evacuate the people from those areas, and to create conditions for a
2 peaceful solution to be reached?
3 A. Well, I don't think that that is true. I don't think that the JNA
4 needed to evacuate anything from that area because there was no military
5 materiel there. The way in which they wanted to protect and defend
6 somebody, I think that that borders on madness rather than being a form of
8 Q. Well, all right. You say yourself, and there's no question there,
9 that Dubrovnik is of exceptional importance culturally speaking,
10 touristically, and so on and so forth. Now, do you really think that it
11 was a good idea to militarise Dubrovnik and to shoot from Dubrovnik at the
12 army in the broader Dubrovnik region which, as you know full well, the
13 first garrison was very near and so is the border with Montenegro. It's
14 all nearby. Do you think that anything, any of this would have taken
15 place had there not been violence and shooting coming from Dubrovnik, from
16 the Dubrovnik area, shooting at the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army?
17 A. Well, I don't think anything would have happened, but vice versa.
18 I think everything would have been solved much more quickly and easily had
19 the army not shot at Dubrovnik. I'm sure that much would have been
20 preserved, many lives would have been saved had it been otherwise, had the
21 army not shot at Dubrovnik.
22 Q. Do you remember that the mayor of Dubrovnik, Petar Poljanic, who
23 was here in this courtroom a little while ago, on the 12th of October,
24 1991, before TV cameras, stated that 15.000 shells fell upon Dubrovnik,
25 and the whole world heard that news item, it travelled the world. Do you
1 know about that?
2 A. Yes, I do, and I think he was 100 per cent correct.
3 Q. Do you remember that on the very next day, which is to the say the
4 13th of October - he made the statement on the 12th of October - on the
5 13th, a meeting was held of the military maritime sector of Boka with the
6 representatives of the municipality and representatives of the European
7 Monitoring Mission precisely in Miocici which you mention. It is a
8 village above Cavtat. When a member of the monitoring mission, observers,
9 Adrian Stinger, said to journalists, he made a positive assessment of the
10 meeting and said that he did not have knowledge of the fact that so many
11 shells fell on Dubrovnik, although he himself lived in Dubrovnik and that
12 he didn't even know that there was -- there were any casualties or that
13 anyone was killed in Dubrovnik. Does that mean anything to you? Does it
14 ring a bell? Does it say anything to you, information of that kind?
15 A. Well, information of that kind tells me nothing. I don't know
16 what kind of judgement the Trial Chamber will bring in, but you can visit
17 the cemetery in Dubrovnik, near Dubrovnik, when you come round, and you'll
18 see the graves of 20 young men who laid down their lives for Dubrovnik,
19 and the JNA killed them in their best years when they should have been in
20 discotheques and been having a good time. They were forced to take up
21 arms and defend their home town.
22 Q. I'm very sorry that those young men were killed, but they were not
23 -- their death was not caused by the JNA but by that nonsensical idea that
24 violence be used to effect violent secession, which could have been
25 effected politically, through peaceful means, without any shots being
1 fired, and you know that very well yourself.
2 A. Well, let me add one more word: I think that your crazy idea
3 killed them, your crazy idea about Greater Serbia, if I might say that.
4 JUDGE MAY: We're getting rather far from this witness's evidence.
5 Let's get back to it.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. And where do you get this idea about a Greater Serbia? Did you
8 hear that somewhere?
9 JUDGE MAY: Look, that's the very point I have in mind. We're
10 getting far from his evidence. He gave evidence about specific events.
11 I've allowed you to ask questions which have gone rather further, but
12 there's no point in asking this witness about matters such as that. We'll
13 hear other evidence about it.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's go back, Mr. May,
15 to the evidence and testimony of this witness.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Do you know - and Croatian radio broadcast this at the beginning
18 of November 1991, so I assume you do - a statement made by the Defence
19 Minister, and I'm quoting: "All citizens of the Dubrovnik municipality
20 who are not mobilised into the Croatian army civilian defence and who do
21 not have a labour duty are duty-bound to report to the secretariat," et
22 cetera, et cetera. So all the others were already mobilised into the
23 Dubrovnik or, rather, Croatian army.
24 A. Up until the 21st of October, they were all volunteers, as far as
25 I know.
1 Q. Well, all right. Let's not go into the details of all that,
2 because you didn't testify about it, actually. But I'm sure you read
3 about it. You must have read a book written by your commander, the
4 commander on that Dubrovnik battleground, and it's called "All My
5 Battles." And in that book, he describes rather differently this entire
6 operation and the events that took place.
7 A. Let me be quite frank and say that I haven't read the book. I
8 think that I have seen enough and experienced and lived through enough
9 that I don't actually need to read a book like that.
10 Q. And is it true, then, that on the 22nd of October, in the fighting
11 in Mlini that took place only a few kilometres, some ten kilometres away
12 from Dubrovnik, that eight members of the JNA were killed? On the next
13 day, the 23rd of October, in Ivanjica, another case in point, eight JNA
14 members were killed. Ivanjica is in the Herzegovina area. How far, as
15 the crow flies, is it from Dubrovnik?
16 A. Well, it's in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, actually, but
17 as the crow flies, it's about 10 kilometres away from Dubrovnik. But on
18 the 21st of October, I had already been taken prisoner, so I really am not
19 competent of talking about those events, I didn't hear about them.
20 Q. Tell me, is Ivanjica a Serb village?
21 A. Well, I don't know what the ethnic composition of the population
22 was. All I know is that Ivanjica is on the territory of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina and I really don't know who lived in Ivanjica. I might
24 have visited Ivanjica once or twice because, before the war, there was a
25 department store that sold furniture, so we went to buy some furniture
1 there, and that's what I know about Ivanjica. As to the population there,
2 I really can't say.
3 Q. All right. And do you know that it was razed to the ground as
4 well? And who could have razed it to the ground, I ask you?
5 A. In this period, the period we're discussing now and that I'm
6 testifying to, it had not then been razed to the ground. That is for
8 Q. Well, you didn't go to the department store once it had been
9 razed, I assume.
10 A. I went before the war.
11 Q. All right. And is it true that on the 28th of October in 1991,
12 your year, in 1991, the year you're testifying about, that Dubrovnik was
13 visited by more than 100 domestic and foreign journalists? They came to
14 -- on the ship Argus, under the Red Cross flag. The first organised visit
15 took place after several months since the conflict broke out. They came
16 to Dubrovnik, and this was organised by this naval sector from the Bay of
17 Boka Kotor.
18 A. I don't know about that. I was already at the Bileca camp at that
20 Q. All right. But did you hear about it? Did you learn that all the
21 reporters noted that Dubrovnik had not been subjected to any great damage,
22 especially not older inner city that was under UNESCO protection?
23 A. I can't say that. I can't answer that question. All I can say
24 and what I know about that period, which is the end of October and
25 beginning of November, is that the guards and the officers that
1 interrogated me said that they -- Dubrovnik would be taken by force if it
2 didn't surrender of its own free will. That's all I can tell you.
3 Q. Well, all right. In that very frustrating episode, I don't want
4 to ask you anything about that. I don't want to even ask a single
5 question about that frustrating period of your life. But I don't think
6 it's very relevant as to what some non-commissioned officer, junior
7 officer told you about Dubrovnik.
8 Now, do you know that on the 28th of October [Realtime transcript
9 read in error "2nd"], BBC and Sky Television, from London, broadcast the
10 readiness of the Dubrovnik authorities to accept the conditions --
11 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... on the 28th of
12 October, although I see it's on the 2nd of October on the monitor, in the
13 transcript, but when was it that you were taken into custody? Just remind
14 us of that, would you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 21st of October, 1991, I was
16 taken into custody, and I really can't answer questions of this kind
17 because I wasn't there. I wasn't present, nor did I have any opportunity
18 of hearing whether it took place and what took place or what didn't.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. All right. But I'm asking you about this piece of information.
21 It was publicised, and they said that in Dubrovnik there were about 2.000
22 guardsmen and a large number of foreign mercenaries, and they published
23 this piece of information on the 28th of October. I assume that on the
24 21st, when you were taken into custody, the situation could not have
25 differed much from that. So this piece of information, this fact that was
1 broadcast, was that incorrect and untruthful, namely that there were not
2 2.000 guardsmen and foreign mercenaries in Dubrovnik that shot at the army
3 but just the hundred people that you mentioned?
4 A. Well, I can answer that question. It's a specific one. There
5 were only those 100 people. There were no foreign mercenaries and there
6 were no 2.000 guardsmen. It's ludicrous to talk about that. I read about
7 that in some Serbian newspapers but I stand behind what I've said, that
8 there were only 100 defenders of Dubrovnik.
9 Q. Well, I didn't quote Serbian papers of any kind, I quoted Western
10 sources. And do you know that one of the witnesses, I can't remember just
11 now which one, and I quoted him here, I quoted from his statement, the
12 witness statement given to the opposing side, the side that questioned you
13 a moment ago, and he said that there were 500. Now, I don't know whether
14 you aligned your views as to how many people were actually there to defend
15 Dubrovnik at the time.
16 A. Well, I stand by what I said, and the answer I gave. If somebody
17 saw things differently, I don't know about that, but as far as I know,
18 there were approximately 100 people.
19 Q. Very well. And tell me, then, do you know whether there was a
20 single official statement or decision taken by any organ of authority or
21 on the part of Yugoslavia or the Republic of Montenegro, which borders on
22 Croatia, or the ruling political parties in them which then or ever denied
23 the notorious fact that Dubrovnik was a Croatian town in the Republic of
24 Croatia, that it belongs to Croatia, and that no one had any pretensions
25 towards it, towards taking it? Do you know of a single statement on the
1 part of anyone, denying this?
2 A. I don't know exactly to be able to quote anybody's statement, but
3 I do know that there were considerable pretensions towards Dubrovnik, even
4 when there were negotiations not to have the army enter, and then the army
5 made several demands - I don't know exactly which - but that a flag of the
6 Dubrovnik Republic should be flown and that it should not be under
7 Croatian authority.
8 Q. The army never asked for Dubrovnik to become a Dubrovnik Republic.
9 Do you remember, because at the time you were still not captured,
10 that the Presidency of Montenegro and the government of Montenegro, on the
11 2nd of October, in a joint statement - which means 20 days before you were
12 captured - they said that Montenegro was not at war but that it
13 exclusively supported the JNA in defending the constitutional order and
14 preventing the civil war from escalating? Do you know that? You must
15 have heard that because you were a free man, and you must have heard what
16 the Montenegrins said at the time.
17 A. Well, let me give you a different answer to your question. In
18 this Tribunal, I would like to state -- I could state that I am not a man
19 but that I am a woman, and this will appear in the press and that is what
20 we will read. So anyone can say whatever they wish. But the facts are
21 there. The facts are those that happened.
22 Q. Since you're inclined, in favour of facts, let's me ask you, do
23 you know, Mr. Hausvicka -- you mentioned that you recognised some locals
24 from Dubrovnik in the military units when you were taken into custody. Do
25 you know that Bruno Karmincic and that Dragan Gajic, Judges of the
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13 English transcripts.
1 District Court in Dubrovnik who carried out most of the investigations in
2 the area of Dubrovnik regarding the destruction of property of the local
3 Serbs, that these two investigating Judges in the District Court in 1991
4 carried out dozens of on-site inspections because of violence against
5 inhabitants of Serb ethnicity, burning and destruction of houses, looting,
6 et cetera? Are you aware of that?
7 A. Let me answer that question too, if that can be considered a
8 question at all. The Serbs in Dubrovnik who stayed in Dubrovnik in those
9 days and who are still living in Dubrovnik, can testify that no one ever
10 mistreated them or persecuted them. And I personally have Serb and
11 Montenegrin friends in Dubrovnik. So what you're saying is absolutely
12 wrong, as far as I know. I may be wrong.
13 Q. I'm just referring to the reports that my associates have
14 collected, drawn up by Judges of the District Court of Dubrovnik and not
15 by anyone from Serbia. That's why I'm asking you whether they're correct.
16 If you're saying they're not, we'll move on.
17 Q. Tell me, please, is it true that local criminals, in October 1991
18 - and you were in the police, so you must have known that - were released
19 from prison and included in the armed formations that were opening fire on
20 the army in the surroundings of Dubrovnik? Is that true or not, that
21 local criminals, in October 1991, were set free and included in those
23 A. I think that is not true, because there's no prison in Dubrovnik.
24 There is only detention on remand. So the prisons were outside Dubrovnik.
25 And there may have been two or three people held in custody, but this is
1 of no significance.
2 Q. But this is a prison on the last floor of the District Court.
3 A. But listen, that is not a prison. That is a temporary detention
4 before he's taken to trial. So there can be no more than three or four,
5 maybe five men in there. But this could not represent any significant
6 force for the defence of Dubrovnik, even if somebody had released them.
7 Q. And tell me, please, Mr. Hausvicka, is it true that fire was
8 opened on JNA members not only from positions outside the old city but
9 also within the city walls from a number of trucks on which anti-aircraft
10 guns had been mounted? And JNA positions constantly shelled at Zarkovica
11 and other localities around Dubrovnik. Is that true or not?
12 A. I cannot give you a competent answer because I was already in
13 detention. But regarding the 21st of October, no fire was opened from
14 outside the old town or within the old town on JNA positions. I can say
15 that up to the 21st of October. After that, I cannot -- someone else who
16 was in town at the time could.
17 Q. But let me ask you, for the period prior to the 21st of October,
18 is it true that as early as the 30th of September, 1991, you set up
19 positions or front lines 700 metres long from Brgat to St. Barbara hills,
20 and that from those positions, members of the ZNG, the police and armed
21 civilians forming platoons were constantly opening fire on JNA positions?
22 A. I'll answer the question. I wasn't there at those positions, but
23 I can tell you one thing: On the 30th of September, the Serbs from Bileca
24 and Trebinje who worked in Dubrovnik came to work on that day. So had
25 there been any Croatian formations there, they couldn't have come to work.
1 And of course, on the 1st of October when the attack on Dubrovnik started,
2 nobody came. And some Serbs in Trebinje even gave some intimation of the
3 forthcoming attack.
4 Q. So what I just asked you is not true, that on the 30th of
5 September there was a front line from Brgat to St. Barbara hill, including
6 the National Guard Corps and civilian forces opening fire on the JNA.
7 A. Let me repeat: I cannot tell you because I was in Mokosica. So I
8 really don't know whether those positions existed or not. But I'm telling
9 you what I know, that up to the 30th of September, cars came in and out of
10 Dubrovnik normally.
11 Q. And do you know that fire was opened on the JNA even from old
12 bunkers that were left over from the Second World War?
13 A. I don't know that.
14 Q. Did they open fire from the belfry of the Saint Anne church?
15 A. I don't know that. I cannot gave you an answer to that question.
16 Q. And do you remember that from the town of Dubrovnik itself, fire
17 was opened from positions near the Neptun Hotel by members of the National
18 Guards? There was an anti-aircraft gun. Then also from the Lapadska
19 Glavica, where there was another anti-aircraft gun. Gorica, another gun;
20 Gradacac; the Ploce beach. Again these same guns. The Belvedere and
21 Libertas hotels, where armed and uniformed members of paramilitary forces,
22 as they were then, were located. Now, I've listed all these places. And
23 tell me that there were -- that none of this was true.
24 A. From the 1st of October until the 21st of October, those guns, I
25 think, were not there. Later on, they were no longer paramilitary forces.
1 They were forces of the Republic of Croatia defending Dubrovnik, and there
2 may have been guns later on, but I think this was much later, in 1992.
3 But at the beginning of October, I can guarantee that there wasn't a
4 single gun in Dubrovnik.
5 Q. Very well. And you mentioned a moment ago that you did your
6 military service in Serbia. And as a soldier serving in Serbia, did you
7 have any kind of problems? I don't mean just in the barracks, but
8 generally when you moved around town, when you went out, did you have any
9 problems with civilians or with anyone or anywhere, any kind of problems
10 of an ethnic nature just because you were a Croat?
11 A. Let me be very specific. I did my military service in Sombor and
12 then I was transferred to Kopaonik. This is a tourist resort, and in a
13 shop I was a soldier, I went to buy something, I can't remember what, and
14 at the cashier, the woman asked me, "Where are you from?" and I said,
15 "From Croatia," and he said, "Get lost, you Ustasha." And that was the
16 single unpleasantness I experienced. In Sombor, I didn't have any such
18 Q. You joined the National Guards Corps in May 1991?
19 A. Yes, in response to an announcement in the newspapers.
20 Q. In Dubrovnik?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So even before there were any kind of pronounced tensions, and
23 especially no violence, you joined the National Guards Corps as an armed
24 formation of the HDZ. Is that true?
25 A. I think you're not right. In Slavonia, the war was raging by
1 then, and there were expectations that something could happen in Dubrovnik
2 too. But my joining the National Guard Corps was more emotional than
3 anything else. As you called it, an HDZ force. I was a 20-year-old young
4 man and I somehow felt privileged to be a member of the National Guards
6 Q. Very well, I understand that, but are you disputing that it was an
7 armed force of the HDZ when it was formed?
8 A. I think that you are not right. The HDZ was in power in Croatia
9 then, just as you were in power in Serbia. Forces were being formed
10 because the war was well under way in Slavonia by then, so that all over
11 Croatia, units of the National Guards Corps started to be formed.
12 Q. Very well. You say that you responded to an advertisement in the
13 newspapers and on television when you joined, as you told us yesterday.
14 So tell me, who was it that was publishing these announcements and
15 broadcasting these announcements to mobilise you to the National Guards
17 A. It was a long time ago, so I really can't remember the exact
18 wording. Nobody forced us to join the National Guards Corps, but whoever
19 wanted to. Nobody forced anyone. As far as I know, even later on, though
20 I was in detention by then, there was no general mobilisation in
21 Dubrovnik, it was more on a voluntary basis. Joining the guards and the
22 police was mostly on a voluntary basis.
23 Q. Where was the recruiting centre that you reported to?
24 A. I can't remember exactly. I think it was the Rasica villa.
25 Q. And tell me, were there any kind of criteria established for
1 joining the National Guards Corps?
2 A. No, nothing in particular.
3 Q. In your statement, you said that the only positions of the
4 Croatian police and army in 1991 were in Brgat, Osojnik, and Debeli
5 Brijeg, which means along the border with Montenegro; is that right? Is
6 it true that those units, on 31st of July, 1991, carried out works to
7 close the road and fortify the positions in the Debeli Brijeg region and
8 that they opened fire onto aircraft of the JNA? Do you remember that?
9 That was on the 31st of July, 1991. You fortified your positions and that
10 is when you opened fire into the territory of Montenegro and on JNA
12 A. I think that is absolutely not true.
13 Q. And is it true -- so the units were not positioned there.
14 Communication was not cut off. There were no fortifications. So none of
15 what I have said is true.
16 A. I can say one thing for sure; that communications were not
17 interrupted, and I think that all you're saying is incorrect, and this
18 fortification on the 31st of July, I believe that those statements are not
20 Q. And do you know -- this wasn't on a continuous basis but on
21 several occasions -- on the 28th of August, 1991, these same units cut off
22 communication lines with Montenegro and brought troops to Debeli Brijeg
23 near the village of Prsecina, there were about 200 members of the National
24 Guards Corps. Is that true or not?
25 A. I can't give you an answer because I wasn't there at the time. So
1 I can't say whether there were 200, 300, or 100 of them. But as far as I
2 know, transport flowed normally, that cars went to and from Montenegro
3 normally. I don't know until what date exactly, but I think up to a few
4 days prior to the attack on Dubrovnik.
5 Q. So you're saying that these 200 ZNG members were not there on the
6 border at the time.
7 A. I didn't say yes or no. I just said that I couldn't give you an
8 exact answer. But as far as I know, I think that they were not there.
9 Q. Very well. And to the best of your knowledge, on the 14th of
10 September in Debeli Brijeg, were obstacles put up and the environs mined
11 by the members of the ZNG?
12 A. Again I don't know. You're asking me things that I really don't
13 know about. I can tell you more about the region around Mokosica and Old
14 Mokosica. I don't know what was happening in the area of Debeli Brijeg.
15 But according to what I know, I don't think there were any mines planted.
16 Q. Very well. And do you know that on the 23rd of September, members
17 of the police and the ZNG, again your Dubrovnik forces, placed mortars and
18 guns in Viteljina and provoked the JNA by opening fire on JNA positions in
19 the territory of Montenegro?
20 A. I will give you a concrete answer: If we had mortars and guns at
21 the time, the army wouldn't have reached where it reached a month later.
22 Q. The same happened on the 24th of September in the Ivanjica area.
23 A. Let me repeat again: If we had had guns and mortars in those
24 days, the army would not have advanced to where it did.
25 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, as you keep claiming that the JNA was
1 shelling you on the 2nd of October, that already then it had taken up
2 positions above Mokosica, that you didn't engage in conflict with the JNA,
3 who killed all these people on the Dubrovnik theatre of war?
4 A. I will give you a specific answer, if you agree.
5 Q. Yes, please do. You give whatever answer you will, and that's up
6 to you.
7 A. My answer is you.
8 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, it's time for the adjournment.
9 Have you any more questions for this witness?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do, a few more.
11 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You can have up to ten minutes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, have you anything for this witness?
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The microphone does not appear to
17 be working.
18 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes. If the senior
19 legal officer would accompany us, please.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. All right, Mr. Hausvicka, you say that I killed those people. All
25 right. Although I think you should know that Serbia had absolutely
1 nothing to do with that whole affair involving Dubrovnik. But with
2 respect to the statement you signed and you say was 50 pages long, do you
3 claim that none of these crimes that you signed your name to in that
4 statement, that you did not perpetrate them yourself?
5 A. I signed something that I didn't see, but what I signed I got from
6 the guards because they had read it. So I don't know what was written in
7 that statement, in that book, but what I claim is that it wasn't how it
9 Q. So you don't know what it says in those 50 pages, but you signed
10 it; right?
11 A. I said I signed it, that I heard from the guards that -- about
12 what was written inside, but I can't say any more than that.
13 Q. And when you were taken prisoner and when that man from Dubrovnik
14 who asked you whether you knew him, you recognised him, and when he
15 identified himself, he said that you went around town slaughtering women
16 and children. Did he -- is that something he fabricated, he thought up on
17 the spot?
18 A. Of course.
19 Q. So I'm not going to ask you what you did. There will be other
20 people testifying here. But I shall respect the comment or, rather, the
21 suggestion that was made by Mr. May, and I shall refrain from asking this
22 witness anything about those frustrating events, although -- so I only
23 have several more questions to ask him.
24 As it has not been challenged that you were registered as a
25 prisoner of war and that you were regularly supervised as a prisoner of
1 war by the Red Cross, is it logical to you that in that supervision
2 performed by the Red Cross at least something would have been seen of all
3 those amazingly large quantities of beatings and abuse that you suffered?
4 They would have seen something of that?
5 A. I think they saw enough. So I don't think that is a problem.
6 Everybody knows who visited the camp, and I'm sure those people will be
7 able to testify about it, because when the representatives of the Red
8 Cross came to visit, it is true that several days prior to their visit the
9 beatings were lesser, but the scars and traces of the beatings could be --
10 were evident.
11 Q. So how do you explain that the Red Cross makes no mention of
12 beatings of the type that you describe and the ill-treatment and
13 everything else?
14 A. Well, I didn't read -- haven't read their report, so I can't say.
15 I can't answer that question of yours. I never read those reports, but
16 what I experienced and lived through I think I have described
18 Q. Well, I'm not going to ask you any more about that. Just tell me
19 this: Where do you see the logic in all of this, in what you're claiming;
20 that they would even come from Bileca to this Miocici or whatever the name
21 of the place was where you were detained, and the journey last several
22 hours, to beat you there. Why would they come all the way from Bileca to
23 beat you in your new camp?
24 A. I don't know why, but the sergeant, staff sergeant, did come by.
25 I don't know whether they were bringing anybody else into the camp. The
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 camp was composed of several sheds, so I don't know how many detainees
2 there were in total there, but I think they came in to remind us of their
4 Q. All right. Mr. Hausvicka, when were you released?
5 A. On the 2nd of September, 1992, and the exchange took place in
7 Q. And then all those subsequent years you worked in the Special
8 Police Units; is that right?
9 A. I worked until mid-1994. And because of the repercussions of what
10 had happened to me, I left.
11 Q. All right. So from 1992 to 1994, that is to say two years, you
12 worked in the units of the special police force. And allegedly these
13 disturbances that you suffered didn't prevent you from carrying out your
14 work and doing that kind of job for two years.
15 A. Well, I'm not a doctor to be able to answer your questions
16 professionally, but the psychological stress that occurs not set in
17 straight away but it is a delayed reaction. I, at the time, felt
18 psychologically capable, and perhaps I wanted to take my revenge slightly,
19 but in 1994, my psychological breakdown started and I had to undergo
20 psychological treatment.
21 Q. So you started to feel the psychological disorders and
22 disturbances two years later?
23 A. Yes, psychological disturbances and other symptoms that I didn't
24 pay much attention to, but my spine was injured, my kidneys were injured,
25 my ribs and head. I didn't attach too much importance to that because
1 that was physical pain. But psychological pain I began to experience in
2 1994 when I applied for treatment.
3 Q. Now, tell me just once again: Do you claim that you did not kill
4 a single person?
5 A. That is what I say, yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no more questions for this
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to
10 ask you to be -- give the prisoner -- give the witness, I beg your pardon,
11 a copy of his witness statement. There are differences in the statement
12 he made then and in the testimony he has given in court today. So I
13 should like to ask him to explain some of the details in that regard.
14 MR. NICE: Copies are available.
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness have them. We should have them
17 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] My first question for you, Witness, has to do
19 with what is contained in your witness statement on page 1. It is
20 paragraph 7. It's the same in the English version.
21 You have already stated yesterday or today, I don't remember, that
22 you joined the ZNG, the Croatian National Guard Corps, voluntarily.
23 However, in the statement you gave to the investigators, you say, "I
24 joined the Croatian National Guard on practically the first day that they
25 started recruiting in Dubrovnik." You don't mention any volunteer -- any
1 volunteering. You say that in May 1991, general recruitment had started
2 for the ZNG.
3 A. I'm just reading that sentence now. This was read out to me. I
4 didn't happen to notice that, but this is not my own sentence. I didn't
5 say that recruitment -- any kind of recruitment had started. I think that
6 that was -- is an error in the English translation.
7 Q. So it is general recruitment that began and not that you wanted to
8 join the ZNG voluntarily. You were recruited. So you're saying that's
9 not true.
10 A. Yes, that's not true. I think that has been erroneously written
11 down and I didn't say that.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, in the following paragraph, you said that there
13 were about 100 men in the ZNG. Is it true that you did not have any
14 uniforms and were wearing civilian clothes at the time, as it says here,
15 but that you were all issued with automatic rifles similar to the
16 Kalashnikov type?
17 A. Yes, one or two months before.
18 Q. And as it says in the following paragraph, that you were located
19 in improvised barracks the whole time. So you were in military positions
21 A. We were put up at the villa Rasica. It's not a barracks. I don't
22 know why it says that. It was actually a hotel, or a holiday centre. And
23 that's where we were accommodated. We slept there and all the rest of it.
24 Q. Now, is what it says in the following paragraph true? You say,
25 "I left the ZNG and, in August 1991, joined the unit of the Croatian
1 special police in Dubrovnik."
2 A. Yes, that is correct. That's what I said.
3 Q. Did you do that voluntarily?
4 A. Yes, I did. Most of my friends were there or, rather, a number of
5 my friends were already there, and I joined them.
6 Q. And in addition to the automatic rifle, you were issued a pistol
7 as well; is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. How many of you were there in those special Croatian police units?
10 A. I've already said that: There were about 50 of us.
11 Q. And do you know one more point that is not contained in your
12 statement which you gave to the investigators, and that is the following:
13 That the Defence Minister of Croatia had already on the 18th of July, as
14 you are a young man, in 1990, brought in a rule according to records for
15 volunteer youth units, recording their names?
16 A. I don't know about that.
17 Q. Right. You don't know about that. And do you know when the
18 Croatian National Guard Corps started being formed? Was it prior to the
19 conflict in Slavonia?
20 A. I don't know that either.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, you say something else in your statement which
22 you failed to recall when you were asked here today. In your witness
23 statement, on page 3, paragraph 4 of the English version - and the B/C/S
24 version, in that version it is the same page, the same paragraph, in fact
25 - you say that you do not know about the positions that existed along the
1 border towards Montenegro. And here you say: "To my knowledge, the only
2 Croatian military or police positions at the time were in Brgat, Osojnik,
3 and Debeli Brijeg, all border crossings towards Montenegro and
5 A. My answer today was to the gentleman too that I cannot answer that
6 question competently. I did know that there exist, but not military ones,
7 police checkpoints or crossings, or whatever you like to call them, at
8 Osojnik, Debeli Brijeg, and Brgat. I'm thinking about the border
9 crossings, that there were checkpoints there. That's as far as I know. I
10 wasn't actually there so I can't confirm who and what was there.
11 Q. Yes, but you were quite categoric in saying that they were
12 military positions. That's what you said at the time.
13 A. I think this was wrongly translated. I think that I emphasised
14 that they were police positions because there was no army in Dubrovnik at
15 that time, no military at that time.
16 Q. I'm interested in knowing things related to the fact that you were
17 taken into custody. You said you were armed when you were arrested and
18 that you had weapons, but you didn't say everything you had with you. You
19 had a rifle, two hand grenades --
20 A. Rifle, two hand grenades, a pistol, and a knife -- a bayonet, in
21 fact; a knife on my rifle.
22 Q. And you go on to say in the following paragraph that you were
23 arrested by JNA soldiers but that these were actually reservists.
24 A. Yes. They were wearing uniforms of the JNA army. Some of them
25 had beards, others did not and were clean-shaven, so I assumed they were
2 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like you to explain to the Trial Chamber the
3 following: You said that after that, you were taken off to Osojnik first,
4 and then you went on to describe what you experienced there, and you were
5 alone. Is that right? Were you alone?
6 A. Well, I can't answer. I don't know what you mean by "alone."
7 Q. There were no other detainees, prisoners.
8 A. Well, that's right, I was alone.
9 Q. And when you arrived at the barracks in Trebinje, you were mostly
10 alone there too?
11 A. Yes. I was completely alone there.
12 Q. Then you arrived in Bileca, where you spent seven months; is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. On page 7, the last paragraph of the English version, which is
16 also page 7, paragraph 5 of the B/C/S version, you state the following and
17 I would like to ask you if it was correct: "I was in a solitary
18 confinement cell for the first 10 to 15 days." Is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Then you say that you were put up in a room where there were 10
21 other civilians.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were they civilians or were they once again persons who were
24 deprived of their freedom, taken into custody the same way you were?
25 A. No, they were civilians.
1 Q. How do you know that?
2 A. Because they were predominantly elderly persons, between the ages
3 of 50 and 60, who were brought in there from the village.
4 Q. Tell me this now, please: You say that in the following days, the
5 maximum figure was about 15.
6 A. Yes, in the room I was in, that is.
7 Q. Then on page 8, paragraph 3, which is also paragraph -- which is
8 the one but last paragraph in the English version: "I remained with a
9 group of about 10 prisoners, mostly civilians. I believe that there were
10 other prisoners around the camp but, as I had not really seen them, I
11 cannot be sure of it."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How come, in response to Mr. Nice's question, you said that there
14 were 200 detainees in Bileca?
15 A. At that time, I didn't see all the 200 prisoners, but according to
16 the information I gained later on, I understood that in the sports hall
17 there were some more detainees, 150 to 180 persons, in fact. And I live
18 in Dubrovnik. We all know -- all of us know each other who went through
19 Bileca. I was there with the 15 but there were many more.
20 Q. And how many people from Mokosica were with you there among those
21 200 individuals?
22 A. From Mokosica, I can't say exactly.
23 Q. Well, the 200 people that were put up in the bomb shelters.
24 A. None of them.
25 Q. So it was only you from Mokosica, right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Why, then, in the statement you gave in the year 2000 you did not
3 mention the number of people that were there? You don't say that anywhere
4 in your statement.
5 A. I'm not sure what you mean. What did I not state?
6 Q. You told us that you stayed on with about 10 detainees, and then
7 you go on to say on page 9, for example - it is the third paragraph from
8 the top, page 9 and 10 - that, "Sometime in December 1991, several other
9 detainees arrived from Bosnia," and you say that very precisely. Not 200,
10 you just say several.
11 A. Could you give me the page of that, please.
12 Q. It is page 9, paragraph two from the bottom. Penultimate
14 A. I apologise, but I think it is ludicrous to have this translation
15 saying "several." "Several" means two or three. But detainees were
16 brought in on a massive scale at that time. I saw at least 100.
17 Q. So you're saying that this is a poor translation and that you
18 didn't say what it says here.
19 A. Well, I don't want to say who did this translation and who did it
20 wrong, but I didn't follow the text of it and this seems to be rather
21 funny. I know that I saw at least 100 of them.
22 Q. So instead of the "several," you say that it should state about a
23 hundred; right?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Now, on page 11, paragraph 3 of the English version, which is page
1 10 of the B/C/S version, the version you have in front of you, paragraph 5
2 to you, you state that about this time, a group of about 20 other
3 prisoners arrived from Morinje and that there was talk of an exchange.
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. And then you were all returned to the Morinje camp.
6 A. Yes, Morinje camp.
7 Q. And then you were all exchanged.
8 A. Yes, on the 2nd of July, 1991.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. NICE: Can the witness have Exhibit 336, the atlas, please.
11 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:
12 Q. Before we come to that, I think the very last answer to Mr.
13 Tapuskovic reads the exchange was on the 2nd of July, 1991, in the
14 transcript. I didn't note what was said by the witness but I think it was
15 1992 that you were exchanged; isn't it?
16 A. Yes, the 2nd of July, 1992, in Cavtat.
17 Q. And if you would open those -- if the usher would be good enough
18 to open the atlas at page 37.
19 You've been asked a number of questions about what the JNA was or
20 was not doing. We took this somewhat quickly at an earlier stage.
21 Was the advance on Dubrovnik from one or from more than one
22 different directions, and if from more than one different directions, can
23 you just point out to us on the map from where the JNA advanced on
25 A. Of course, from several directions. On the 1st or 2nd of October,
1 I don't know exactly, Slano was occupied and the Adriatic highway was
2 closed, so that already then Dubrovnik was surrounded, because at sea
3 there was the navy and its ships.
4 Q. Do you know what the navy was doing at that stage? Were you ever
5 aware of whether or not there was such a thing as a blockade of Dubrovnik?
6 A. Yes. Dubrovnik was blocked already on the 1st or 2nd of October.
7 I really am not sure, it's one of those two days that Slano was taken. So
8 Dubrovnik was blocked from the sea and from the land.
9 Q. Using the pointer, just show to the Judges so that there's no
10 doubt about it, from which directions, in the plural, the JNA advanced on
11 Dubrovnik. Was it from north, south, east, west, or from where?
12 A. I cannot talk about north, south, or east. It came from Slano,
13 from Osojnik, from Ivanjica, and from Montenegro, from Konavle, towards
14 Dubrovnik; and from the sea, there was the navy.
15 Q. It's been suggested to you by the accused that attacks were
16 initiated on the JNA by Croats. Was there anything that you saw or heard
17 of to support that suggestion of the accused that Croats initiated attacks
18 on the JNA, on the army itself?
19 A. According to my knowledge, none of that is true. But as for the
20 area I was in, I can say with certainty that there were no provocations on
21 the Croatian side against the JNA.
22 Q. You have described, in respect of the area to the north and east
23 of Mokosica and others have described in respect of other parts of the
24 nearby area, the JNA being on high ground, in a position to overlook
25 either Mokosica or Dubrovnik. Was there any need that you could see for
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the army to be out of its barracks, placed in those strategic positions on
2 high ground, overlooking the areas that were shelled? Was there any need
3 for them to be there?
4 A. In my opinion, they shouldn't have been there. If they hadn't
5 been there, there wouldn't have been a war.
6 Q. Did the JNA publicly justify in any way its presence on these high
7 ground positions, that you can recall? If so, just tell us what they said
8 about them. If they said nothing, we'll move on.
9 A. You mean through the mass media?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. As far as I know, I really didn't hear anything so I can't say
12 anything; I don't think they said anything.
13 Q. The accused used the term that there was a "violent secession" by
14 Croatia. In your area, was there any question of a violent secession?
15 A. No. There were no signs of any such thing. Croatia, at the time,
16 carried out a referendum when the Croatian people opted in favour of
17 secession. I don't remember the exact date because it was a long time
18 ago, but I don't think anything was done that would warrant an aggression
19 against the area of Dubrovnik.
20 Q. And the accused also suggested to you that there was hostile enemy
21 activity justifying JNA evacuation of people in the areas that were
22 attacked. Was there any hostile enemy activity of which you were aware,
23 by the Croats, that could have justified JNA evacuation?
24 A. No.
25 Q. The accused suggests that there is in existence an order not to
1 attack Dubrovnik. He didn't show you such an order. We'd be grateful to
2 see it if he has it with him, but tell us, please, have you ever heard of
3 or seen any such order not to attack Dubrovnik made by someone on the Serb
5 A. No, I never heard of it.
6 Q. Staying with that topic, it's been suggested that the president of
7 Montenegro issued a statement that they were not at war with Croatia or
8 with Dubrovnik, I'm not sure which. Do you have any recollection of that
9 statement of the president of Montenegro?
10 A. No. I don't remember any such statement by the president of
11 Montenegro. I can just say one thing, that that same president had a
12 picture taken with the so-called defenders of Dubrovnik on the top of a
13 hill when the JNA had an overview of Dubrovnik, a bird's-eye view of
14 Dubrovnik from there.
15 Q. And I think just help us, please; did that same president also
16 issue an apology later in respect of what he had in fact been a party to?
17 A. The current President of Montenegro, yes; and the former one, no.
18 Q. The former one was Bulatovic, and the present one is Djukanovic.
19 They were both involved at the same time.
20 MR. NICE: Your Honour, may we, in light of the allegations that
21 have been put by the accused, now see the apology that has been made?
22 I've got the tape ready and transcripts available, to reflect the
23 Montenegrin view. It's quite short. Although the transcript is two
24 pages, the passage we require is only about a couple of inches.
25 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, you'll see that for completeness, I've
3 provided the whole of the transcript of the relevant television programme,
4 but we need go only down to the end of the first half of the page, where
5 we have the two quotations by or passages by --
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to comment, as an
9 amicus, that I think that it is not appropriate to bring this in through
10 this witness. The witness has not confirmed that he heard it. And
11 secondly, this is a paragraph that is being offered through this witness
12 and it is not appropriate. I think we should wait for some other occasion
13 to present this to the public.
14 JUDGE MAY: It's nothing to do with the public. It's being
15 presented to this Court, Mr. Tapuskovic. Remember that.
16 Now, we play videos and the like, usually, and the relevance, as I
17 understand it, is that allegations were put by the accused in
18 cross-examination as to the attitude of Montenegro. Yes. Just a moment.
19 Let Mr. Nice respond.
20 MR. NICE: Your Honour is absolutely right. Those are the
21 allegations that have been made. Here is a document that goes to show
22 either the genuine or the corrected version by Montenegro of its attitude.
23 And indeed, I think the accused is clearly aware of the broadcast.
24 Whether he's seen it or not is probably not entirely critical.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness has in fact confirmed that the
1 president made the apology, so I think it is entirely appropriate to have
2 it put through him.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We're going to admit it. If the relevant
5 passage could be played. You were going to tell us where the relevant
6 passage is.
7 MR. NICE: It's the first page and I think it's queued right to
8 the beginning there. So all we need go to is from the beginning, where it
9 says "News Editor" down to the second passage of Mr. Djukanovic, which is
10 halfway down the first page.
11 JUDGE MAY: There's some problem about showing it, apparently. It
12 hasn't got an audio attached. Do you want to show it? Perhaps the
13 simplest thing is to show it very quickly without the audio and you can
14 refer us to the relevant passage.
15 MR. NICE: Certainly. If we can see the video, we can pick up
16 probably the relevant passage and I can read from the transcript.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. NICE: Here we see the newscaster. We there see
19 Mr. Djukanovic and Mr. Mesic, talking together. This is part of the
20 opening passage with an account, and here is the words of Mr. Djukanovic,
21 and he said this -- and I'll get a version which can be played with audio
22 soon. He says:
23 "I would like to use this opportunity and on my behalf and on
24 behalf of the citizens of Montenegro, particularly those citizens who
25 share my broader political and moral views, express my deepest regrets to
1 the Croatian citizens, particularly to the citizens of Konavle, Dubrovnik,
2 and Neretva county, for all the pain, suffering and material losses that
3 were inflicted upon them by any citizen of Montenegro as a member of the
4 Yugoslav national army during those tragic events."
5 The reporter returns to the screen and makes this point:
6 "Presidents Mesic and Djukanovic assessed today's meeting as
7 extremely important for security in the whole region. For the Montenegrin
8 president, it is in line with Montenegro's search for the constitutional
9 status and identity."
10 And Mr. Djukanovic is then seen again, and we can probably
11 actually stop the tape now, thank you, because we've moved on, but
12 Mr. Djukanovic is then seen saying:
13 "Unfortunately, the regime in Serbia has not given up the ambition
14 to keep Montenegro in the cage of its unrealistic, monstrous, centralist,
15 and dictatorial projects."
16 JUDGE MAY: What is the date, please, of this broadcast?
17 MR. NICE: It's -- I'm so sorry not to have the date immediately
18 at hand. I'll make it available before the end of the morning, probably
19 before I've sat down. I think it's last year, but I'll come back to that.
20 JUDGE MAY: The last comment is a contemporary one and is of
21 really no relevance; however, the other one, of course, we'll take account
23 MR. NICE: I'm wrong; it's the 25th of June, 2000.
24 Q. And help us, please, Mr. Hausvicka: Did you see that apology
25 screened in 2000 yourself?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, may the video be given an exhibit number
3 but on the basis that rather than trouble you with one with and one
4 without audio, I'll ensure that the one you have has an audio, so that the
5 one with audio becomes an exhibit, and may the transcript bear an
6 associated exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 365.
8 JUDGE MAY: And the transcript should have an A number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 365A.
10 MR. NICE: Yes. I'm invited to correct what may have been
12 Q. I think, Mr. Hausvicka, it was President Bulatovic who was
13 photographed on the Dubrovnik front and the person making the apology is
14 the more recent president, Djukanovic, now Prime Minister of Montenegro.
15 Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. A few more questions. There was reference to bearded soldiers and
18 reference to paramilitary forces. Were there bearded soldiers whom you
19 saw, and how did they react to or how did they seem to be controlled by
20 the clean-shaven JNA soldiers who you otherwise saw?
21 A. In the Bileca camp, in addition to the regular army and
22 reservists, there were some people -- I don't know how to call them. They
23 had crossed belts in front, beards, and some strange insignia on their
24 heads which were not JNA insignia. I don't know how to put it. These
25 were groups out of control. And when we went to do labour, we were afraid
1 because they would shoot and they would get drunk, and we feared they
2 might attack us. They would use all kinds of words. Sometimes they would
3 point guns at us. We didn't know what they could do to us, and I don't
4 think that the guards would do anything to protect us.
5 Q. Were they, nevertheless, apparently under the direction of people
6 at the camp?
7 A. Probably, since they were there. I believe that they were under
8 the command of those in the camp, because this was a military barracks and
9 there was an army in there.
10 Q. And on that topic there's been some suggestion at the first part
11 of the accused's questioning there may have been something irregular about
12 the soldiers who were dealing with you. When the ICRC, when the Red Cross
13 came to the camp where you were held, was there any suggestion by anybody
14 that this was anything other than a regular JNA establishment?
15 A. I can't give you an exact answer to that question. I really don't
17 Q. Very well. Your statement's been explored -- and, Your Honour,
18 that ought to perhaps to have an exhibit number, not least for the
19 following reason: I'm not going to ask you to go into any more detail of
20 the maltreatment you suffered, but did you set out in more detail than has
21 been provided to this Court the treatment meted out to you by the soldiers
22 in the camps where you were held, in that statement and did you do so
24 A. In my statement, I gave more details in describing what had
25 happened, though there were even worse cases and humiliations that I
1 experienced that I don't wish to talk about in this court.
2 Q. Very well.
3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I hope the statement may be exhibited.
4 JUDGE MAY: We'll get a number now.
5 THE REGISTRAR: It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 366.
6 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, in light of the very last answer,
7 without reading it out publicly, I'll just invite Your Honours to look to
8 page 7 as an example, the penultimate paragraph as opposed to the ultimate
9 one, to reflect exactly the point that the witness has made, and I'm going
10 to ask him to deal with one matter in light of one of the accused's
11 suggestions, which can be found on page 10, I think.
12 While I'm finding the right page for that, I may have missed --
13 Q. It's suggested by the accused that the JNA was representing
14 Yugoslavia as a whole and in a sense was represented on an even basis by
15 various national groups. One incident, which is on page -- I'm grateful
16 to Mr. Valieres-Roland, it's on page 8, in the middle of the page. Was
17 there an occasion in the Bileca camp where a Cyrillic magazine was the
18 subject of some treatment of prisoners?
19 A. Yes. A newspaper came out of the JNA. I think it was called
20 Narodna Armija, and they would give us a page, or half a page, in
21 Cyrillic, for us to learn it by heart in five, ten or 15 minutes, and if
22 we didn't know it by heart, they would beat us.
23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think that is all I need to ask of this
24 witness save to tidy up one matter of detail in case it's unclear.
25 Q. In relation to the number of combatants in the shelter or shelters
1 of which you've spoken, was the five or six combatants the total number of
2 combatants in one shelter or in all six shelters?
3 A. In one shelter. Actually, in the area of Nova Mokosica, where
4 there were five or six shelters, there were five of us; three special
5 policemen and two ordinary policemen.
6 Q. And that's the total number of policemen or ordinary policemen in
7 the totality of the number of shelters?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. NICE: No other questions of this witness.
10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Hausvicka, that concludes your evidence. We're
11 grateful to you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are free to
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to make a comment only
17 on what Mr. Nice said a moment ago. Djukanovic is expressing regret
18 because of the suffering provoked by citizens of Montenegro in that area,
19 the citizens of Montenegro within the JNA. He does not express regret
20 because of the defence of Yugoslavia but because of the unnecessary
21 suffering provoked by certain citizens of Montenegro, and it is well known
22 that there was looting and violence over there. Therefore, I think that
23 the statement should be read correctly.
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And secondly --
1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we will interpret that. It will be a
2 matter for us, and in due course you can address us on it. When you come
3 to the end of the case, of course you can.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He confirms that there was a
5 conflict between the JNA and the forces of Croatia in the area.
6 JUDGE MAY: No. The matter -- the matter has now passed. You can
7 address us in due course on it. You can address us on it in due course.
8 Yes. Mr. Nice, your next witness.
9 MR. NICE: The next witness will be taken by Mr. McKeon. We do
10 not have another witness after this witness. I've explained the reasons
11 for that. If there is any spare time at the end of the morning, there may
12 or may not be some administrative matters we could discuss. There
13 probably won't be any time.
14 JUDGE MAY: I doubt it. What we could do with is a list for next
15 week's witnesses.
16 MR. NICE: A list has been prepared this morning and is now being
17 circulated. You will discover that we've only been able to fix witnesses
18 for next week because of some of the administrative problems we're
19 referring to and that were dealt with elsewhere in written material
20 available to the Chamber. We're having difficulties the following week
21 but of course we will fill that gap but we won't be able to notify parties
22 until sometime next week who they'll be.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May. Mr. Nice asked -- he put a
24 question with respect to the order that I quoted, and I should like to
25 give him that explanation or, rather, to give the explanation to you.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 On the 4th of October, 1991, there is an order of the Federal
2 Secretariat for National Defence, the General Staff, in fact, 1779-1 is
3 the number of it, and in brackets it says: [as interpreted] "(126 of the
4 4th of the October 1991). Don't take over Dubrovnik or open artillery
5 fire and air force fire on it."
6 On the 4th of October, another order to block Dubrovnik precisely
7 because of the shooting.
8 Now I'm reading this from the documentation because Serbia didn't
9 have anything to do with that whole affair but there are documents in the
10 army. So this is an army [as interpreted] by the General Staff. "Do not
11 take control of Dubrovnik or open fire from the artillery or the air. And
12 block Dubrovnik and caution not to attack Dubrovnik on that same day."
13 The Federal Secretariat for National Defence, the General Staff, and the
14 number I mentioned, 4th of October, et cetera, 1991. And I assume that we
15 can have those documents at our disposal. So it was a conflict between
16 the JNA and the paramilitary units of Croatia, and the order by the
17 General Staff not to attack Dubrovnik but just to block it.
18 JUDGE MAY: I take it --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And all the rest is just pure --
20 JUDGE MAY: I take it from what you say, Mr. Milosevic, that you
21 don't have the orders yourself. If you have them, let the Court have
22 them. If not, no doubt inquiries can be made.
23 Yes. We will have the next witness.
24 MR. McKEON: Your Honours, while the witness is being brought in,
25 I wanted to direct your attention to the atlas, Exhibit 326, particularly
1 page 23. This witness is going to be talking about the villages of Lovas,
2 Tovarnik, and Ilok, which appear in grid E-2 on page 23 of the atlas.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that's Exhibit 336.
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.
9 WITNESS: Witness C-1204
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Examined by Mr. McKeon:
12 Q. Sir, you will be known in these proceedings as Witness C-1204. A
13 piece of paper is now going to be put in front of you and I would like you
14 to take a look at it, please, and answer yes or no whether the details on
15 the piece of paper that are placed before you are correct.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And, sir, are you a Croatian by nationality, born in Vukovar in
18 1963, and did you live in Lovas, Croatia until the 24th of December, 1991,
19 when you were forced to leave the area?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you describe for us, please, what the village of Lovas was
22 like before the war, paying particular attention to what the ethnic
23 composition was of the village between Croats and non-Croats.
24 A. It was a peaceful, quiet village. Most of the inhabitants were
25 Croatians. Eight per cent were non-Croats. There were some Hungarians.
1 The rest were Serbs.
2 Q. Did --
3 A. There were no problems. We all lived together and were friends.
4 We grew up together, went to school together right up until 1991.
5 Q. Approximately how far is the village of Lovas from the border
6 between Croatia and Serbia?
7 A. As the crow flies, about two and a half to three kilometres.
8 Q. And of the non-Croats that lived in the village, of what ethnicity
9 were they?
10 A. There were some Hungarians and some Serbs.
11 Q. Were most of the non-Croats Serbians or Hungarians?
12 A. They were mostly Serbs.
13 Q. Now, could you describe for us when the first attack on Lovas
14 occurred? Could you tell us about that attack?
15 A. It was autumn. The tanks were moving towards Vukovar across a
16 field. We were picking apples in an orchard. We heard some shots, and
17 they were targeting the village. Of course we were frightened, so we took
18 refuge. We fled towards the village. And as we were approaching our
19 Catholic church in the village, I saw that the steeple had been damaged
20 from a tank grenade.
21 Q. When you say "they were firing shots," were these shots coming
22 from the tanks or from guns or from something else?
23 A. From the tanks.
24 Q. And approximately how many shells were sent flying towards Lovas?
25 A. Several. Three or four. One hit and damaged the steeple of the
1 church. The others missed the church but came in the same direction and
2 fell on the outskirts of the village.
3 Q. And did this attack on Lovas, this tank attack, take place before
4 or after the village of Tovarnik was taken over by the JNA?
5 A. Before.
6 Q. Now, was there a second attack by tanks on Lovas, and if so, could
7 you describe for us what happened during that second attack?
8 A. The same thing, after Tovarnik was taken over. Several days later
9 they went up along the Sid-Vukovar main road and targeted the silos of the
10 factory farm and also shot at the church and the steeple was set fire to.
11 Q. Now, in either of those two tank attacks were any people in Lovas
12 killed or injured?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And approximately how many shells would you estimate were sent at
15 Lovas during this second tank attack?
16 A. Four to five pieces.
17 Q. Now, you mentioned that the second tank attack took place a few
18 days after the takeover of Tovarnik. How far from the village of Lovas is
19 the village of Tovarnik?
20 A. About 7 kilometres.
21 Q. And I take it then that the village of Tovarnik was taken over
22 before the village of Lovas was taken over; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. After the takeover of Tovarnik, did the people from that village
25 leave the village, and if so, did any of them come to your village of
2 A. Most of them fled to Lovas. Some of them went towards Ilok. But
3 for the most part, they were put up with friends and relatives in Lovas.
4 Q. And why did these people leave Tovarnik?
5 A. They explained to us that the tanks had enter the village and
6 started firing. They targeted the church and set fire to it. They set
7 fire to the Croatian houses, and the people fled because they were afraid.
8 Q. These people that fled from Tovarnik to Lovas, were they Croats or
10 A. They were Croats.
11 Q. Now, sir, after Tovarnik was taken, was there a meeting that took
12 place between villagers from Lovas with the JNA to discuss the possible
13 surrender of the village of Lovas?
14 A. There were talks. Four persons, four locals from the village, two
15 Serbs and two Croats, went to Sid, and they talked to a JNA officer there,
16 and he demanded that they hand over their weapons. He mentioned some 100
17 automatic rifles. However, there weren't any things of that kind, and
18 there was general panic because the people knew what happened in Tovarnik.
19 Q. You say "panic." You mean the people that went to this meeting or
20 the people that were back in the village of Lovas?
21 A. In the whole village. There was panic throughout the village,
22 because people were afraid. They were afraid that we would suffer the
23 same fate as the neighbouring village of Tovarnik.
24 Q. Now, sir, the four locals that went for this meeting with the JNA
25 in Sid, were they Croats or were they Serbs?
1 A. Two of them were Croats, and the other two were Serbs.
2 Q. The people that were in the village that you said were afraid
3 because of what had happened to Tovarnik, what did they do?
4 A. Well, they waited for night and left for Ilok. They didn't know
5 where to go, actually. You couldn't go any further. You couldn't go to
6 Vinkovci or Vukovar. So that they would shut themselves up in their
7 houses and wait to see what was going to happen to them.
8 Q. Could you tell us what happened the next day after this meeting in
10 A. The next day, the JNA officer arrived with a priest, a Catholic
11 priest from Tovarnik. He came together with a driver, this JNA officer
12 did, and the priest, and he made a lot of noise and shouted around and
13 demanded that the weapons be handed over. And he said that the army would
14 come in and search the houses for weapons.
15 Q. Did this JNA officer make any sorts of threats or statements about
16 what might happen to the people of the village of Lovas if guns and
17 weapons were not handed in, and if so, what did he say?
18 A. Well, he threatened and said that the army would come in and that
19 they would search the village and that we would suffer the same fate as
21 Q. When did the main attack on the village of Lovas take place?
22 A. On the 10th of October, 1991.
23 Q. Could you describe for us that attack?
24 A. Well, sometime in the morning, around 7.00 a.m., we heard
25 explosions, and you could hear tanks firing and shells falling on the
1 village. Then there was a certain lull. It was quiet for a few minutes.
2 And then we heard a burst of gunfire coming from the direction of
3 Opatovac. And we fled to the cellars. I lived in the centre, and so I
4 looked out onto the street to see what was going on, and I saw that people
5 wearing camouflage, with weapons, were moving around and that they were
6 forcing some of the villagers in front of them to move on. I went back to
7 the cellar, and several minutes later somebody came to the door. They
8 shouted for me to come out of the cellar, otherwise they would throw a
9 grenade on the house. So I came out of the cellar, I opened the gates and
10 they came inside. I took my children out. And they kept shouting and
11 making a lot of noise. And then one Serb turned up from the village. He
12 was also with them, this Serb, and told them to leave, to go outside. And
13 he came and asked me whether I had any weapons. I said I didn't, and he
14 said there would be no problems and that I just put out a white sheet on
15 my gate and not to leave my grounds, my property.
16 And they continued down along the street. You could still hear
17 some shooting. And that's what happened. I stayed in my yard and didn't
18 leave it.
19 Q. What was your understanding of the reason why you had to put a
20 white sheet on your house?
21 A. Well, so that we could mark the house as having been searched and
22 to say that we were Croats living there.
23 Q. Did the other houses in the village that belonged to Croats, were
24 they also required to put white sheets on them and were white sheets also
25 put on the homes that belonged to the Serbs?
1 A. All the Croatian houses had to display the white sheets, but the
2 not Serbs houses.
3 Q. During the days after the takeover of Lovas, were you required to
4 wear anything on your clothing to identify you yourself personally as a
6 A. When we moved around the village, we had to have a white piece of
7 cloth around our arms, tied to our arms.
8 Q. When you say "we had to have that," is that the Croatian residents
9 had to have the white piece of cloth on their arms?
10 A. Yes, only the Croatians.
11 Q. The Serb residents of the village, did they have to wear anything
12 on their clothing to identify themselves?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You said the attack on your village started with a tank -- tank
15 shells followed by a lull and then by a burst of gunfire. How long did
16 the tank barrage take before the individual gunfire started in the
18 A. Several minutes. Several shells fell, then they stopped so that
19 their people could come into the village and not run the risk of being
20 shot at.
21 Q. And you said "so their people could come in." You saw some of
22 these people that were going around the village. Isn't that true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. These people that you saw, were they local Serbs -- well, first of
25 all, could you tell us -- could you describe them for us?
1 A. They were wearing parts of uniforms, medical uniforms, civilian,
2 army ones. They had weapons, all kinds of weapons, the Zolja type of
3 rifle, semi-automatic rifles, automatic rifles. They were sort of
4 unkempt, untidy looking, and there were locals of my village too, but
5 there were other people we didn't know. Then there were some others from
6 other villages whom I knew from work.
7 Q. And the local people you knew, were they Serbs?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were they travelling together with the other people that you
10 didn't know or were they going in groups by themselves, the locals in one
11 group and the non-locals from outside the village in another group?
12 A. They were mixed, because they would indicate and point out the
13 Croatian houses.
14 Q. During this initial period on the first day, did you see any
15 soldiers that you could identify as regular or reserve JNA soldiers?
16 A. Well, towards evening the tanks arrived in the village, and they
17 deployed around the village, and some ten buses arrived too, army buses,
18 and ten army trucks too with all the attending equipment. There were
19 reservists there. There were young soldiers there wearing regular
21 Q. When did the tanks enter the village?
22 A. Towards evening.
23 Q. And when did the busloads of JNA soldiers come into the village?
24 A. After them.
25 Q. Before the tanks came into the village, however, on that first day
1 were there any JNA soldiers that you saw in the village?
2 A. I didn't see any, but then I didn't dare go out onto the street.
3 So we watched through the windows as much as we could see, but it wasn't
4 advisable to look out of your window because they would shoot around.
5 Q. Now, during this attack on the 10th of October, was Lovas defended
6 by villagers shooting back at the people that came in or was it basically
7 left undefended?
8 A. It was taken over without any defence.
9 Q. How many people were killed during this attack on Lovas?
10 A. About 20.
11 Q. And is there anything that you can tell us about the people that
12 were killed such as were they young, were they old, male, female, anything
13 of that nature?
14 A. Most of them were elderly people. Three women were killed in the
15 streets where they came across them, and some of them were 35 years of
16 age. The others were 60, 65.
17 Q. The people that were killed during this attack, were they killed
18 by the shells that were fired by the tanks, or were they killed by bullets
19 and being shot?
20 A. As far as I know, just one man was killed in his yard by a shell.
21 The shell fell in his yard. All the rest were killed by bullets.
22 Q. Now, sir, when these ten busloads of JNA soldiers arrived in the
23 village, where did they go? Did they remain in the village, and were they
24 housed in the village?
25 A. They were housed in the primary school building and towards the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 exits of the village. They asked to be in the Croatian houses and be
2 nearer the checkpoints.
3 Q. And the Croatian houses that they were housed in, what happened to
4 the people that lived in those houses?
5 A. They just turned them out of their homes and told them to fend for
6 themselves and go to other people's houses.
7 Q. Were any Serbs thrown out of their homes so that the JNA could
8 stay in their houses?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were checkpoints set up by the JNA around the village?
11 A. Yes. At the exits to the village at several points, there were
13 Q. So was it possible to leave the village once these checkpoints
14 were set out -- up, without passing through JNA checkpoints?
15 A. On the first night, that was still possible, because some of the
16 villagers who lived at the ends of the villages were able to flee. But
17 afterwards, those checkpoints were better manned and control was more
18 rigorous, and you couldn't leave after that.
19 Q. And the people that left after the attack, where did they go to,
20 and what percentage of the population left the village after the attack?
21 A. Most of them fled to Ilok, and all in all, about 60 per cent of
22 the people fled, some during the first day on the attack, and others
23 during that first night.
24 Q. Did you leave the village, and if not, why not?
25 A. I did not leave the village. I lived in the centre, so I couldn't
1 move around anywhere. And I also had small children and my family, so I
2 stayed with them. I didn't want to be separated from them.
3 Q. In addition to the JNA soldiers and reservists that were in the
4 village, were there any paramilitary-type groups that remained in the
5 village, and if so, could you describe those groups that remained in the
7 A. Yes, there were quite a number of them. They called themselves
8 the Jovic men, or Jovicevci, Dusan Silni, the White Eagles, there was some
9 Valjevci from Valjevo. All young men dressed the same way, wearing
10 camouflage uniforms, well-armed, tidy-looking.
11 Q. And what was the mix of these paramilitary forces versus the JNA?
12 Were there more JNA forces, more paramilitary forces, were they roughly
13 equal? If you could describe what the mix was of these forces in the
15 A. Well, we couldn't count them; they were moving around. They would
16 give us assignments. We had to work. But for the most part, the whole
17 village was full of them. They would come and go. There was lots of
18 comings and goings, but I would say that there were more JNA active
20 Q. When these paramilitaries came and went from the village, did they
21 have to pass through the JNA checkpoints to get into and out of the
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What happened to the homes of Croatians during and after the
25 attack on the village of Lovas?
1 A. They were -- when they entered, a lot of houses were set on fire.
2 Then they would be stormed, looted. Any valuables would be taken; money,
3 gold jewellery, household appliances, cars, things of that type.
4 Q. Were the houses that belonged to the Serb residents also set on
6 A. Not a single one.
7 Q. And were the houses that belonged to the Serb residents also
9 A. No.
10 Q. Who did this looting of the houses?
11 A. Those paramilitary units. They looted.
12 Q. Did you ever see any steps being taken by any of the JNA soldiers,
13 regular or reservists, to attempt to stop these people from looting the
14 Croatian houses?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, you mentioned that the villagers had to work. What jobs were
17 you given after the village was taken over?
18 A. I did some physical labour. We had to do that for several days.
19 We would collect firewood for the furnace and stoves. And then several
20 days later, a villager came up to me and said that I had to be a drummer.
21 Q. Could you explain to us what a drummer does.
22 A. We go through the village, carrying a drum. He would beat the
23 drum with a stick. He would be given a text to read out, and he had to go
24 up and down the village along its streets and read out the text, make the
1 Q. And did you in fact do that job?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. From the texts that you were given, were you able to learn who had
4 assumed the position as president of the village of Lovas?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And who was that?
7 A. Ljuban Devetak.
8 Q. Did Mr. Devetak have any official position in the village before
9 the takeover of the village of Lovas?
10 A. No. He was just a local villager, and he lived in Osijek.
11 Q. Was there also a local commander of the TO forces in the village?
12 And if so, who was that?
13 A. There was, and his name was Milan Radojcic.
14 Q. And finally, if you were able to tell us from the documents that
15 you saw as the village announcer, who was commanding the JNA troops that
16 were in the village after the village was taken over by the JNA?
17 A. Captain Marko Kovac.
18 Q. I'd like -- I'd like to turn your attention now to the events of
19 October 17th.
20 MR. McKEON: And for Your Honours, this starts at paragraph 19 of
21 the proofing summary.
22 Q. What I'd like you to do, sir, is just tell us in your own words
23 what happened in the village on that day, starting with the announcement
24 that was made for all men to report to the centre, the Zadruga building.
25 A. I was informed that I should pass on the message that the people
1 should gather in the centre of the village at 6.00 p.m., all between 18
2 and 55 or 60 years of age, for some discussions and information.
3 When the people gathered, I was among them. They surrounded us,
4 and, one by one, they would push us into the yard of the mechanical
5 workshop. There, they searched us in a rough way. They seized everything
6 from us - cigarettes, lighters - and forced us to sit on benches lined up
7 in two rows in the yard. They left us there all night. They registered
8 us, they threatened us, they hit us. They would come round to see us
9 during the night. On a piece of high ground there were machine-guns some
10 10 metres away from us, and they threatened if anybody moved they would
11 kill us. And they would make their rounds during the night, hit with us
12 rifle butts on the back, on the head, in the kidney area, so that we
13 experienced a lot of fear and a lot of blows that night.
14 It was quite cold, so that in the morning we were all frozen. But
15 we survived that night, and we hoped that things would get better, that
16 they wouldn't kill us there.
17 Q. Let me ask you --
18 A. In the morning --
19 Q. Let me ask you this before we get on to what happened in the
20 morning: The order that people should gather, the men should gather, who
21 signed that order?
22 A. Ljuban Devetak.
23 JUDGE MAY: Let us make it clear. Was it all the people or all
24 the men who should gather?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The men.
1 MR. McKEON:
2 Q. And that was, was it not, the men that were of a certain age? I
3 think you mentioned between the ages of 18 and 55; is that right?
4 A. Between 18 and -- yes.
5 Q. Approximately how many men were gathered together in this fashion?
6 A. About 70.
7 Q. And you mentioned, when you started to describe this, that "they
8 surrounded us, they held machine-guns on us." Could you tell us who it
9 was who was holding you and these other men prisoners.
10 A. Valjevci. Men from Valjevo.
11 Q. Were these JNA regular or reserve soldiers or were they a
12 paramilitary group that you called Valjevci?
13 A. I would say that they are regulars, because they were all about
14 the same height, well-built, like a special elite unit. They were
16 Q. And during the night, were the 70 men allowed to lay down or stand
17 up or change position, or were they forced to maintain the same position
18 during the night?
19 A. We had to sit up straight, and we were not allowed to bend down or
20 turn around.
21 Q. All right. Could you tell us what happened in the morning.
22 JUDGE MAY: I think before we get there, that might be a
23 convenient moment. We're turning to a new topic.
24 Witness C-1204, could you remember in this adjournment and any
25 others there may be not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's
1 over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team.
2 We're going to adjourn now for twenty minutes. Could you be back
4 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. McKeon.
7 MR. McKEON: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I think -- I
8 think we're up to the morning after the long night.
9 Q. Could you tell us what happened in the morning, please.
10 A. In the morning, Devetak came, and the commander of the Valjevci.
11 They called him Boxer. And a roll call started, and as people passed by
12 them - they were lined up - they would hit him with rifle butts, iron
13 bars, pieces of iron, so that people fell down bloodstained, with broken
14 bones. And then they came across two brothers who were not there. They
15 sent someone to fetch them home. They continued beating and hitting the
16 people. And when these brothers were brought in, they started beating
17 them straight away. One of them, whom they called Petronije, he hit Ante
18 Luketic in the kidney area with a knife. The man fell. Blood flowed from
19 him. They continued kicking him. And then they continued calling out
20 names, and they stopped suddenly. They had some discussion and then they
21 said that we would go with them outside the village to search the area for
23 They lined us up in two columns. The boys that were beaten up
24 stayed behind, lying on the ground. We went outside in two -- in two
25 lines, and they accompanied us on both sides. When we came to the gate,
1 there was a kind of ramp we passed. We went outside, and they went inside
2 so that they explained if these opened fire, that they should hit us first
3 and not them.
4 And when we came to a bend, a boy had his pelvic bone broken. He
5 couldn't walk any longer. They shouted that he had to move on. He said
6 he couldn't, and he lagged behind, and we just heard a burst of fire, and
7 the man was killed.
8 We continued on our way, and we reached a clover field. They told
9 us to go towards a hillock, and we had to hold hands and to trample on the
10 clover with our feet, which was rather high, 30 centimetres high. Then we
11 had to turn around and face the Borovo factory and go uphill.
12 After about ten metres, we came across a wire. Somebody shouted
13 out "wire." There was an explosion and then shooting. And they had told
14 us before that that we mustn't lie on the ground. And out of fear because
15 of the explosion and the shooting, I lay down and there were bullets
16 whizzing by, and we could hear screams. And then they said that one of
17 theirs, Joco, had been wounded. We stayed on the ground, lying down.
18 Then they cared for him, and then they ordered us to get up. Those of us
19 who got up, who hadn't been wounded, we got up. Those who had been
20 wounded had to raise a hand, and they did. Then a military vehicle came
21 by, a JNA vehicle, from the direction of the village. When it arrived, it
22 stopped at the bend and they asked what had happened. And they said the
23 Ustashas had planted a minefield and that we had come across it. And they
24 said that it wasn't true, that the army had mined it, and that the wounded
25 should be taken to the doctors and that we should be sent back. He got
1 back into the vehicle and left.
2 However, until the truck arrived for the wounded, they forced us
3 to go and remove the mines. I personally removed four or five of them.
4 This was a trip-wire -- these were trip-wire mines, and we would carry the
5 mines, a mine in one hand and the charge in the other. And when I turned
6 around, I saw that there were four rows of clover trampled upon. So it
7 was obvious that the mines had been planted there before.
8 When the trucks arrived, we helped the wounded get on. A local
9 man trod on a small mine, and his toes were blown off. They were loaded
10 onto the truck and taken away. And a young man who was hit in the spine,
11 he kept saying that he had lost a leg, but he had a leg, but obviously it
12 was paralysed. Then they drove them off in the direction of Tovarnik, and
13 they took us back to the village.
14 They told us to go on working as if nothing had happened.
15 When we came to the cooperative, no one was left. There was
16 blood, bloodstains. We dug a trench for the army behind the school. We
17 saw them taking out the Pavic brothers.
18 JUDGE MAY: I think we must have a break from the narrative in
19 order that we don't lose it. If we have too much information, it's
20 impossible to take it all in.
21 I don't know if you want to go back and cover any of those details
22 that we've dealt with so far or whether you want the witness to go on.
23 MR. McKEON: I do have a few details I'd like to cover, Your
24 Honour. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
1 MR. McKEON:
2 Q. Going back to when the prisoners were being beaten in the morning
3 when people were being called out supposedly for works, was Mr. Devetak
4 present while these beatings and the stabbing that you described took
6 A. Yes. I said that he was present, and this commander of the
7 Valjevci, called Boxer.
8 Q. And the clover field to which you were taken, how far is that from
9 the Zadruga building in the centre of Lovas where you were initially held
11 A. About 700 to 800 metres.
12 Q. In order to get from the Zadruga building to the clover field, did
13 you have to pass through a JNA checkpoint, and if so, what happened when
14 your column of men, of guarded men, passed through the JNA checkpoint?
15 A. We had to pass through the main entrance to the village, and when
16 we reached there, they just lifted the obstacle, the ramp, and we passed
17 through, without any problems or questions asked.
18 Q. Could you tell us who it was, not by name but by unit or
19 description - name if you have it - who it was that accompanied these
20 prisoners from the Zadruga building to the clover field. Who took you out
21 to the clover field?
22 A. The Valjevci. The Valjevci. The men from Valjevo.
23 Q. And these men from Valjevo, are they also the ones that held the
24 prisoners under guard while you were forced to walk through the clover
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You mentioned a JNA vehicle coming by. Was the person in that
3 vehicle a JNA officer or a regular soldier, non-officer?
4 A. He was a JNA officer.
5 Q. And from where he was, where his vehicle was on the road, was it
6 possible to see the bodies of those people who had been injured or perhaps
7 killed by these mine explosions?
8 A. It was possible to see them because the road is about five or six
9 metres higher up than the clover field.
10 Q. Where -- were you standing on the road when you said you could
11 look back and see the four rows of mines? Is that where you were
13 A. Yes. I had to reach the canal, cross the canal, climb up and
14 leave the mines on the edge of the road.
15 Q. And the place where you left the mines, where you turned and you
16 could see clearly where the mines were located, where was that in
17 relationship to where the Valjevci were standing with guns, guarding the
18 prisoners walking through the minefield?
19 A. Some were behind our backs, and others were up there on the road.
20 Q. Were they in a position where they could also see clearly the rows
21 of mines that were in the field?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. At the time that the prisoners were asked to march through this
24 minefield, did the soldiers point out to them where these mines were or
25 did they just tell them to walk through the field?
1 A. They didn't show us anything. They just said that we had to hold
2 hands and use our feet to trample on the clovers.
3 Q. You mentioned a boy who was seriously wounded, and then you heard
4 shots and he was killed. Do you know his name?
5 A. The young man's name who was wounded died in Tovarnik. His name
6 is Josip Turkalj. And the young man who was killed at the bend of the
7 road, his name was Bosko Bodjanac.
8 Q. Mr. Bodjanac, did you see his body when you were walking back to
10 A. Yes. It was lying on the edge of the road.
11 Q. I'd like to show you a couple of maps and one exhibit. We'll
12 start with the map that is at tab number 3.
13 MR. McKEON: Could that be shown to the witness, please.
14 Q. Okay. Sir, do you recognise this as a map of the village of
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'd like you to take one of the red pens that's in front of you
18 there, if you could, please, and could you mark with circles where it was
19 that the tanks were located surrounding the village of Lovas. Just put
20 circles where the tanks were located.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Now, sir, if you take a look at the map, there's a road that
23 appears to be going out of Lovas, down towards the lower left-hand corner
24 of the map. Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could you please mark with an "X" on the map the approximate
2 location of the clover field.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And could you, by drawing a line through the road that goes back
5 to Lovas, show the approximate location of the JNA checkpoint that you had
6 to go through while you were being marched to the clover field.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Of the 70 men that were originally in --
9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. McKeon, before we go on, do you want that map
11 MR. McKEON: I do, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MAY: It's not in the clip which I have, I don't think.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the name note for Witness C-1204
14 will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 367 under seal, confidential. The packet of
15 exhibits for Witness C-1204 will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 368. And tab 3
16 will be additionally marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 368 tab 3.1204.
17 MR. McKEON: Thank you.
18 Q. Now, sir, of the originally 70 men that were being held in the
19 Zadruga overnight, approximately how many of them were marched to the
20 clover field?
21 A. About 50.
22 Q. All right. I'd like to place before you a document marked in tab
23 4 of the binder of witness exhibits, which I'd like to have exhibited
24 also. It's entitled Annex I Victims Lovas Minefield, Paragraph 52.
25 JUDGE MAY: It's tab 4 to Exhibit 368.
1 MR. McKEON:
2 Q. Sir, could you tell us who the people are whose names appear on
3 this list?
4 A. Those are the people who were killed in the minefield.
5 Q. Now, sir, the man who was shot on the way to the minefield, does
6 his name also appear on this list; and if so, could you tell us what his
7 name is again.
8 A. It is on the list. His name is Bodjanac Bosko.
9 Q. And the man who was wounded at the minefield but who died later,
10 what is his name and is his name on the list?
11 A. Yes, it is. His name is Turkalj Josip.
12 Q. Thank you. I'd like to place one more map in front of you. This
13 is tab 1 of the index binders, which I'd also like to have exhibited.
14 JUDGE MAY: Once we have exhibited -- Mr. McKeon, once we've got
15 the exhibit, just read out the tab numbers. This is Exhibit 368.
16 MR. McKEON: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MAY: And I take it you want to do tab 1.
18 MR. McKEON: Yes, Your Honour.
19 Q. Could you take a look at this map and tell us what this map
20 depicts and whether it is an accurate map.
21 A. It is correct. It shows the road from our agricultural
22 cooperative, or Zadruga, to the minefield.
23 Q. Now, you didn't draw this map yourself, is that correct, but it is
24 an accurate map; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. I'd like to have you point out a few locations using
2 this map, and we can use the numbers that are on the map as reference
3 points. Could you tell us, first of all, where on this map is the Zadruga
4 building that you've referred to?
5 A. Number 1.
6 Q. And where is the clover field that you and the other prisoners
7 were forced to march through?
8 A. It is marked as 9 and 11.
9 Q. Could you show us on this map the approximate location of the JNA
10 checkpoint that you had to go through on the way to the clover field.
11 A. Here it is.
12 Q. Now, you're referring to the place about halfway through the map
13 where it appears there's a road coming in from the left and a road coming
14 in from the right and then two number 6's? Is that where you're pointing
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, it looks like at some point on the map there's a series of
18 lines with dots in the middle, and then there's the ward "kanal" and then
19 it changes from dots on the outside to lines in the middle. What does
20 that represent on this map?
21 A. That represents the point at which they were exchanged with us, on
22 the -- they came in on the outside -- we came in on the outside, and they
23 came inside.
24 Q. Now, on the map, looking up at 9 and 10 up in the field area, it
25 looks like the four rows of mines are just in the upper part of the field
1 and not the lower part of the field. Is that the way it was?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And using this map of the field, could you show us the direction
4 of travel of the men who were forced to march through this field.
5 A. We first had to go in this direction, and they had to go in that
7 Q. So just so our record is clear, when you say "this direction," I
8 believe you pointed from the road on the left side of the map to the edge
9 of the field on the right side of the map. Is that correct? Is that the
10 first route you had to take?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And there were no mines in that part of the field; is that right?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And then --
15 A. There weren't any mines.
16 Q. And then after that first pass through the field, did you then
17 turn direction and go from, on this map, about the middle of the map up to
18 the top and then that's when you went through the minefield?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the soldiers who were holding you prisoner under gunpoint and
21 who started to shoot when the mines first went off, where were they
22 located on this map?
23 A. Some of them were at number 10, and the others were on the road.
24 Q. Now, could you tell us what happened to the prisoners who were
25 left behind at the Zadruga building and who were not taken to the
2 A. When we returned, they weren't there any more. All that remained
3 was blood. The next day, we learnt - or I learnt from my friends who went
4 to get them out around the different houses, to pull them out of the
5 basements and the chapel at the church - they had been killed with
6 grenades or bullets, that kind of thing.
7 Q. Were you personally given the task at some point to collect --
8 help collect the bodies of the people that had been killed at the
10 A. The next day, they rounded us up in the morning and took us to the
11 minefield, and that's where we had to collect the bodies of our dead
12 friends and load them up onto a truck. And then they drove the truck off,
13 and it was at the entrance to the village for two days. It was parked
14 there for two days.
15 Q. What eventually happened to those bodies?
16 A. They used a dredger to dig a hole, and then they threw in the
17 bodies. That is to say, our people had to -- it was a small hole, so our
18 people had to pile up the bodies one over the other and then fill the hole
19 in with soil.
20 Q. And where is that or where was that hole located where these
21 people were buried?
22 A. At the cemetery, the Catholic cemetery.
23 Q. Now, sir, after this incident at the minefields, were any Croatian
24 residents of Lovas forced to leave the village, and if so, what happened
25 to their property after they left?
1 A. They were forced to leave, and they had to sign a document signing
2 over all their property to SAO Krajina, Western Srem, and Slavonia.
3 Q. When did you eventually leave the village and why did you leave?
4 A. I left on the 24th of December. Round about the 20th of December,
5 the White Eagles, Beli Orlovi, according to what they said, had come back
6 from somewhere where a lot of them had been killed because they came upon
7 an army, some soldiers, and they started taking off people in the evening
8 to basements, and they beat them up there.
9 A Serb came up to me, myself, and warned me that I was on the list
10 for the next day, and he told me if ever I could that I should disappear.
11 I spent that night staying with some relatives, and in the
12 morning, I got a permit from a Hungarian. I went to Sid and then
13 Bijeljina with my family, of course, all of us together. We went to
14 Bijeljina. From Bijeljina, we went on to Tuzla, and then to Zagreb after
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 MR. McKEON: That's all I have, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The exhibits can come back, I think, for the
19 moment. Thank you.
20 Mr. Milosevic.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] It's a long number so I'm not going to repeat it,
23 Mr. C-1204. Is it true that Lovas was a place where there were no
24 particular problems in the lives of the Serbs, Croats, and Hungarians that
25 lived in it?
1 A. Yes, that is true.
2 Q. In your statement, you first of all mention the events that took
3 place in Borovo Selo, and you talk about that here. You say, on the 2nd
4 of May, 1991 -- and that is common knowledge.
5 Now, I have two questions in that regard: Why are you talking
6 about events only as of that date when you know very well that the events
7 in Lovas took place much earlier? Not the ones that you're testifying
8 about but the ones I'm going to ask you about in connection with all the
10 And secondly, why do you speak about that as the massacre of
11 policemen? Do you know what actually happened in Borovo Selo?
12 A. Yes, I do. We watched it on television.
13 Q. And do you know that the police stormed the village and
14 completely, without reason and unselectively, entered the village with
15 several vehicles and started shooting at the homes of the people living
16 there and the inhabitants?
17 A. That's not what I saw on television, nor did I hear it happen that
19 Q. All right. So you don't know about that. You're just talking
20 about what you saw on Zagreb television; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Well, let's not go into that. Now, on Zagreb television did you
23 see that there was no JNA in Borovo Selo at all, or anything of that kind?
24 A. I didn't see those images, but what I did see on television, we
25 didn't see any of those people there.
1 Q. All right. You say that the policemen in Borovo Selo were
2 Chetniks, and according to you, they were people wearing some sort of
3 special caps and insignia, cockades. Were you ever in contact with people
4 of that type, especially in Borovo Selo?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How can you say that, then?
7 A. We watched it on television.
8 Q. Oh, I see. You watched it on television. Fine.
9 You then say that you had organised guards, and you speak about
10 that in paragraph 8 of page 2 of your statement. Who decided to set up
11 the guard system, guards and watches?
12 A. The council in the village; the people.
13 Q. All right. Then you said that you had Kalashnikovs in the village
14 and some hunting rifles. Who did you get the Kalashnikovs from?
15 A. I don't know where they came from, but there were a couple of
17 Q. All right. And do you know when the HDZ was formed in Lovas?
18 A. In 1990.
19 Q. You say in 1990. Right. Now, is it true that Jovo Milas,
20 Gracanac Josip, and Marin Vidic, in April 1990, were called to a meeting
21 of the HDZ in the village of Bogdanovci which was convened by Tomislav
22 Mercep, the main coordinator for the HDZ of Vukovar?
23 A. I'm not aware of that.
24 Q. Do you know that Mercep, in his introductory address, informed all
25 those present that he had received instructions, as he said, from the
1 central board of the HDZ of Osijek to form a military organisation within
2 the HDZ?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Right. You don't know about that. Fine. Now, do you know that
5 at that time, a military service was set up, the task of which was to arm
6 the members of the HDZ and to train them?
7 A. I heard something about that, but I don't know much about it.
8 Q. What did you hear about it?
9 A. Well, I heard that there was ZNG, National Guard Corps or
10 something like that.
11 Q. When did you hear about that?
12 A. In 1991.
13 Q. Not 1990?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And this happened in April 1990?
16 A. What? What do you mean? Which fact are you referring to?
17 Q. April 1990, Milos Jovo and Josip Gracanac and Marin Vidic were
18 called to attend a meeting in the village of Bogdanovci of the HDZ party?
19 A. I don't know that.
20 Q. All right, fine, you don't know. Now, do you know -- do you
21 happen -- does the name Stipan Radar mean anything to you?
22 A. What did you say?
23 Q. Radar, Stipan Radar, who was appointed leader of that service for
24 arming and training.
25 A. No.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Right, no, you say. And do you know happen to know Jovo Milas,
2 Josip Gracanac and Marin Vidic? Do those names ring a bell?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are they your villagers?
5 A. Two of them are and one is from a neighbouring village.
6 Q. Right. Two from your village and one from a neighbouring village.
7 When they came back from the meeting, they held a meeting in Milas Jovo's
8 house and decided to implement the decisions of the meeting in Lovas
9 itself. Do you know anything about that meeting?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Are you a member of the HDZ?
12 A. I am now.
13 Q. But you weren't then?
14 A. No, I wasn't.
15 Q. So you didn't take part in those meetings at that time in 1990?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. Do you know that Jovo Milas convened an executive board of the HDZ
18 in the village of Lovas attended by Krizmanic Franjo, Branko Krizmanic,
19 Josip Badnjak, Filip Josic, Ivo Madjarevic, Rendulic Tomislav, and Franjo
20 Mulic? Do you know all these people?
21 A. I know the people but I don't know about any meetings.
22 Q. So you don't know that a meeting was held and that these military
23 services were set up and all the others?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And you didn't hear that they were formed or that meetings were
2 A. No.
3 Q. And did you know that Ivo Madjarevic was the leader of one of
4 those services?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you know that Markica Gracanac was the leader of the military
8 A. No.
9 Q. All right. Fine. And do you know that at the meetings of the
10 Executive Board of the HDZ in Lovas, Ivo Madjarevic, Franjo Mulic, Branko
11 Krizmanic informed the participants that they had received a quantity of
12 explosives to be used against the JNA?
13 A. No, because I didn't attend any of those meetings. I was not a
14 member and so they didn't invite me to attend the meetings nor did I go
16 Q. Do you know about a decision taken in August 1990, a decision
17 taken in the HDZ premises in Vukovar, in the hall of the workers centre,
18 to launch the establishment of so-called volunteer detachments, units?
19 And I'm talking about August 1990.
20 A. No.
21 Q. And do you know that after that, that is to say already at the end
22 of August and beginning of September, an Executive Board meeting was held
23 in Lovas and a volunteer detachment formed?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. And do you know that this volunteer detachment which
1 was formed for the Lovas village area numbered 120 persons? It is
2 impossible that you don't know about a detachment and its forming that
3 numbered 120 men. And this Markica Gracanac was the commander of the
4 unit, the detachment.
5 A. I don't know about that.
6 Q. You don't know about that?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. All right. Fine. Now, do you at least know that this particular
9 detachment took part in a review of volunteer troops held in the village
10 of Bogdanovci in September 1990?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So so many people are going from your village to attend this
13 ceremony, this review of troops, and you know nothing about it?
14 A. I wasn't interested, and I wasn't aware of it.
15 Q. All right, fine. But I'm sure you do know that when this ceremony
16 in the village of Bogdanovci took place, that there was a review of
17 troops, of volunteers in Lovas, 50 people under arms, like the whole of
18 the HDZ in Lovas. Do you remember that event?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You don't remember it?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. All right. Do you know that this volunteer detachment was
23 transported with a bus belonging to the agricultural factory farm to the
24 Bogdanovci ceremony in September?
25 A. No, I don't know about that.
1 Q. You don't know because you weren't interested or you had
2 absolutely no knowledge about that?
3 A. Quite simply, I wasn't interested in it.
4 Q. All right, you say you weren't interested. Now, do you know the
5 following -- all right, I won't ask you that because you'll probably say
6 you don't know how weapons and equipment were supplied. You know nothing
7 about that, I assume.
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. Do you at least know whether they asked you to give contributions
10 for the purchase of weapons, from Hungary, for example?
11 A. No.
12 Q. They never asked you?
13 A. I wasn't employed at the time.
14 Q. You weren't employed, and so they skipped you over.
15 A. Probably, yes.
16 Q. All right. Fine. All right. How about the names of Ante Gaja
17 from the village of Nustar? Does that ring a bell? Lisa Mara from
19 A. No.
20 Q. And in Lovas, do you know who the owner of a coffee bar called
21 Viktorija was, and his name was Josip Ninkovic? Do you know the
22 proprietor of that coffee bar?
23 A. I do know Josip Ninkovic but I didn't know that he was the owner
24 of the coffee bar.
25 Q. And what about their activities? Do you know anything about their
1 activities with Franjo Knezevic, Nikica Maric, Jovan Jovanovic, with their
2 journeys to Hungary? Do you know anything about that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And do you remember that Ninkovic was arrested because of that?
5 A. Well, I heard some rumours going round but I wasn't interested and
6 I didn't inquire.
7 Q. This was in 1990, before any conflicts broke out, before anything
8 happened. It's a major event when somebody's arrested in a village,
9 especially linked to things of this kind.
10 A. Well, I just heard rumours about it.
11 Q. You just heard rumours about it.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you yourself have a Kalashnikov?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. Now, do you at least know that all the members of the
16 Executive Board of the HDZ were armed, that they had the same types of
17 Kalashnikovs, precisely the ones that came from these sources?
18 A. Well, I didn't look through them. I don't know who had what kind
19 of weaponry.
20 Q. So everything that I've asked you about in 1990, everything that
21 was going on in 1990, because you start testifying as of May 1991, but you
22 say you know nothing about these prior events, nothing at all, although
23 you were in Lovas throughout.
24 A. I know nothing about that. I wasn't interested. I wasn't
25 interested in politics. I wasn't interested in weapons.
1 Q. Fine. You weren't interested in politics or weapons. But as an
2 inhabitant of the village, I assume you knew that it was a constitutional
3 duty of the army with respect to illegal weaponry to seize those weapons
4 illegally procured. I assume you know that.
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. All right. Why, then, was it necessary to have weapons in Lovas?
7 You yourself say that you weren't afraid of the army because you had no
8 reason to fear the army. It was a largely predominantly Croatian village,
9 so why did you need the weapons and the village guards?
10 A. We needed them because after Borovo Selo, people were afraid. We
11 were near the border, and we watched television Zagreb and the programmes
12 that were televised and we were afraid. So if somebody procured an
13 automatic weapon of any kind, they would probably keep it in the house.
14 They didn't carry it around as a kind of baton. They would keep the
15 weapons at home.
16 Q. All right. You've just explained to us - and you have this on
17 page 2 of your statement - that Lovas was attacked before Tovarnik with a
18 tank that shot several grenades and shells. You don't know what the
19 weapon used to fire was. Are you sure it was a tank?
20 A. Yes, it was, because I was between the tanks and the village. So
21 I know that the firing came from a tank.
22 Q. But nobody was killed on the occasion, you say.
23 A. No.
24 Q. So what was the purpose of the shooting?
25 A. Well, later on, we saw that the steeple of the church had been
2 Q. Do you know anything at all about the decisions taken in April
3 1991, when the security service was set up or, rather, the technical
4 service which had up until then been under the HDZ organisation and turned
5 into the security service?
6 A. No.
7 Q. What about Josip Milas? Is that a name that rings a bell?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you know of any of his activities in connection with what
10 I've just been asking you?
11 A. I do know that he's a member of the HDZ now, but when he became a
12 member, I really couldn't say.
13 Q. All right. Now, do you happen to recall, as a decision was made
14 at the time to search the Serbian houses, do you happen to remember
15 whether they searched these homes, these organised, armed members of the
16 HDZ? Did they search the houses of the Lovric, Vorkapic, Tepavac, et
17 cetera, the Serbian houses? That's what happened. And Mijo Kolic, Keser
18 Braco and others were the perpetrators; they conducted the searches?
19 A. I don't know anything about that.
20 Q. You don't know anything about that. Well, how big is the village
21 of Lovas? How many inhabitants?
22 A. About 1.800 inhabitants.
23 Q. I see; 1.800. Do you at least know the emergency plan that had
24 been put in place, and other measures?
25 A. There was no emergency plan of any kind.
1 Q. All right. Did you know that Lovas was divided into five regions
2 at the time, commanded by Marko Gracanac? Do you at least know that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You don't know that? All right. And the so-called external
5 defence of the village, commanded by Sabljak and others, do you know about
7 A. No.
8 Q. Is it true that during the negotiations that you yourself
9 mentioned on page 3 of the statement - and you brought them up a moment
10 ago - that the representatives of the JNA exclusively called for the
11 handing over of weapons?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you know, at least from the media, that the Presidency of
14 Yugoslavia made a decision to disarm all those who unlawfully were in
15 possession of weapons?
16 A. I didn't know about that. I wasn't informed about that.
17 Q. Is it true that over 70 per cent of the villagers, the
18 inhabitants, left Lovas after the army asked them to hand in their
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So the army asked the villagers to hand over their weapons?
22 A. And the women and children fled to Milica.
23 Q. Why did they flee when the army just asked them to give up their
25 A. Because they heard from people in Tovarnik what had happened to
1 them, what had happened in their village. That's why they fled.
2 Q. You say that on the 10th of September, an attack was launched on
3 the village and that the village was first shelled.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who attacked the village?
6 A. The village was attacked by tanks, and then later on the
7 paramilitary units entered the village.
8 Q. You say that upon entering the village after the attack, you found
9 yourself in a cellar and that on the occasion, you saw a local man among
10 those who were asking you to come out. So actually you saw a neighbour of
11 yours; is that right?
12 A. They were men, Serbs, from my village.
13 Q. So this was a conflict within the village itself, a local
15 A. No. There were no conflicts up to then at all, because the
16 evening before that, we were together in a coffee bar, Dzuro Prodanovic,
17 Radojcic, so that we had no conflict with them at all.
18 Q. But on that day, there were no conflicts with them, but you saw
19 them. You didn't see any troops or army members.
20 A. I saw them entering the village armed.
21 Q. What did you see?
22 A. I saw them, those Serbs of Lovas, entering and walking around the
23 village under arms and forcing the Croats to go towards the Zadruga or
24 cooperative building.
25 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, on that day when the attack started,
1 as you say, you didn't see anybody being killed; is that right?
2 A. I saw, across the road to my house, a man lying. Later on, we
3 learnt that it was Josip Kraljevic.
4 Q. Very well. But then you didn't see JNA soldiers or officers.
5 A. I did not because I did not leave the house or the yard for two
7 Q. I'm not asking you whether you left and saw them, but here on page
8 4, this is this long paragraph on page 4, and you say that: "On that day,
9 I didn't see anyone being killed, but two or three days later, we learnt
10 that about 20 or 21 men were killed in the village that day." And then
11 you say: "As the soldiers went away ..."
12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. McKeon.
13 MR. McKEON: Your Honour, we have copies -- I didn't mean to
14 interrupt Mr. Milosevic, but we have copies of the statement, if it would
15 help the Court to follow along as he's quoting from it.
16 JUDGE MAY: I think it would, yes. If we could have them,
17 please. Also the witness should have a copy too.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And then you say: "As they went away, you heard shots from the
20 other side of the village. Later on, I saw them escorting some people to
21 the Zadruga building," and in brackets it says, "Zadruga is a kind of a
22 village farmer's community."
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what Mr. Milosevic
24 is talking about is on page 4, second paragraph of the English version.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. I now wish to quote this sentence of yours. Of course, all of
2 this was stated by you, but this one in particular: "As in the village,
3 since I did not see any JNA soldiers or officers and since all those
4 people who entered the village were armed and wearing various kinds of
5 uniforms, some even civilian clothes, I assumed they were some kind of a
6 paramilitary formation. I also saw that Rakic Zeljko wore Chetnik
7 insignia and presumed that there were also Chetniks among them."
8 And then comes the next paragraph, beginning with the sentence:
9 "That evening, JNA tanks entered the village."
10 So when those people were killed and when this was happening,
11 there were no army members in the village, but it was only that evening
12 that they entered, when they heard that there was shooting there, to
13 secure the village and to stop violence. Was that the role of the JNA at
14 the time?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Well, what was it?
17 A. They passed through the village in tanks, and they came out of
18 trucks and buses. They entered the school and forced people out of their
19 houses in order to accommodate the troops. There were volunteers among
20 them too, but in the tanks were mostly young men. And the volunteers,
21 they all wore JNA uniforms, those that came by buses and trucks.
22 Q. Those who arrived -- or, rather, JNA soldiers who arrived, that's
23 what I'm trying to establish. So they came subsequent to these events
24 when these people were killed.
25 A. They arrived in the evening.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. That means on the evening of the day when these people were
2 killed. And when they were killed, no one from the JNA was present there.
3 That is what I'd like to make quite clear.
4 JUDGE MAY: So your evidence, so we can follow it, is that the
5 first troops in the village were the locals; is that right? And then the
6 JNA came in in the evening?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There were locals, but other
8 people also whom we didn't know.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Those locals who were armed didn't enter the village, they were
11 there, weren't they? They didn't come there from anywhere. They were
12 simply in the village. They were living in that village; right?
13 A. They were living in the village, but later on they boasted how
14 they had come from Opatovac and how they had captured the village.
15 Q. I don't know what they boasted about, but you said that they were
16 locals and that there were no army members when the killings occurred and
17 that the army arrived in the evening.
18 A. The army came in the evening.
19 Q. You go on to say, on page 4, that the JNA came and some reservists
20 who asked you to engage in some sort of forced labour, like removing
21 killed animals, dead animals in the village, putting some order. Is that
22 what you call forced labour?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did any army member ask you to do that or was it someone else from
25 your local structures that were organised in the village?
1 A. I don't know who gave the order, but in any event, we were
2 informed about it mostly by our local Serbs.
3 Q. You said here that you had a president of the village who was a
4 local, that the commander in the village was also a local, and that you
5 had such a unit there.
6 A. The main person in the village when they entered, and later who
7 took control of everything, was Ljuban Devetak, who used to live in Osijek
9 Q. But also this man who tasked you to be the drummer, who would
10 inform the villagers about the things they felt they should be informed
11 about, he was from your village too, wasn't he?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the information that you were forced to provide to the
14 villagers, was that signed by someone else or by a local person?
15 A. Ljuban Devetak. He was a local. He didn't live there. His
16 parents were in Lovas. He was born there but he lived in Osijek.
17 Q. Very well. He lived in the town, but he came from that village
18 and was living in the nearby town. So he came there. I see. Fine.
19 So all these persons that we have now referred to were your
20 locals, your villagers.
21 A. There were some villagers, but there were some from the outside.
22 Q. And where did they come from?
23 A. I don't know where they came from. For instance, this Zeljko
24 Rakic, I knew him because we used to work together in Borovo.
25 Q. Very well. You testified that they beat you. But please give me
1 a very precise answer: Is it true that you were not beaten by members of
2 the army or anyone from outside your village? Did members of the army
3 beat you? When I'm saying "the army," I mean the JNA.
4 A. I don't know who was in command of the Valjevci, but they were the
5 ones who beat us.
6 Q. What insignia were they wearing?
7 A. They had camouflage uniforms. They were armed. They were
9 Q. Did they have five-cornered stars?
10 A. They didn't wear caps. They mostly wore helmets.
11 Q. Is there a soldier without a cap?
12 A. I couldn't tell you that.
13 Q. Very well. You say you were taken to the Zadruga, the cooperative
14 building, and the people who guarded you there, who took you to the
15 Zadruga, they too were not members of the JNA, were they?
16 A. They were Valjevci.
17 Q. But not members of the JNA.
18 A. I don't know who they belonged to.
19 Q. But you mentioned some paramilitary groups who certainly didn't
20 belong to the JNA.
21 A. I don't know who they belonged to.
22 Q. So, then, we'll accept that you do not know who they belonged to.
23 And they acted violently. One had a nickname Boxer, the other was
24 Nikola, another one was Petronije. Is it true that not one of them was a
25 member of the JNA?
1 A. I don't know whose members they were. There were White Eagles,
2 and Dusan Silni, and the Jovic men and the Valjevci, but those are not JNA
3 members. Such detachment units do not exist in the JNA.
4 Q. Well, let's move on. I think we can cover quite a lot of ground
5 quite quickly though I have quite a lot of questions.
6 You explained that you heard from this Boxer that you would serve
7 as a human shield, that through you they would check out whether the
8 Croats would open fire, as you put it. Is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in this way, two columns were formed, with guards walking
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How, then, could you be a human shield if the guards were with
15 A. They were with us until we left the village.
16 Q. And then you went on alone?
17 A. No. They went on the inside, and we were on the outside.
18 Q. But that's not a wide column, if I can put it that way. You just
19 described that this was a road on an embankment, some five or six metres
20 above ground level. This is not a densely populated column. They were
21 going with you, weren't they?
22 A. We were exposed from the outside. So if anybody were to open
23 fire, they would hit us first.
24 Q. Very well. So the guards, those who were going with you, were
25 with you all the time?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Very well. And they were with you also when they forced you to
3 look for mines, as you said.
4 A. Only they withdrew behind us.
5 Q. How far behind you were they?
6 A. Ten to 15 metres.
7 Q. When a mine blows up, do you think it's safe ten metres away?
8 A. I wouldn't be able to say.
9 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, since a moment ago you described the
10 events, you recounted the event, so let us look at it from a different
11 angle now.
12 An explosion occurred.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. After that, a jeep or - I don't know - Pinzgauer or whatever,
15 comes with a JNA officer, obviously brought there by the explosion to see
16 what was going on.
17 A. I don't think that anything attracted him to come there. But
18 after talking to the Valjevci, he got in and went on.
19 Q. Wait a minute. I'm asking you about the things you testified
20 about a moment ago. He asked what was going on, what had happened, and
21 they told him that the Ustashas had planted the mines, and he told them it
22 wasn't the Ustashas, it was us, we had mined the area, and take those men
23 back and take the wounded to the hospital and that he would send a truck;
24 is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Well, is it clear from that, since they are explaining to the JNA
2 officer that the Ustashas had planted the mines, and he said it wasn't the
3 Ustashas but us, that the JNA had nothing to do with your being taken
4 there, nor did they have any contact with the officer in connection with
5 the mine before the explosion occurred when this officer came to
7 A. I think that they both knew very well about the mines. And the
8 officer himself admitted that he had mined the field.
9 Q. Yes. But if they tell him that the Ustashas had planted the
10 mines, they didn't know that the army had planted the mines.
11 A. I don't know what they knew and didn't know.
12 Q. I'm just interpreting the conversation that you described here for
13 us, because it wouldn't be in his interest to say, "We did it," if they
14 hadn't done it.
15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you may be interpreting it. The
16 witness can only say what happened. It will be for us, in due course, to
17 interpret it.
18 Do you think you might finish this witness in two or three
19 minutes, or do you want more time?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not in two or three minutes, but
21 I'll try to do it very quickly. I think I'm very quick in the
22 cross-examination of this witness, bearing in mind the fact that he can't
24 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We have to adjourn today pretty
25 promptly because there's another case coming in.
1 Mr. McKeon, can this witness stay or not?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I only have a few more questions.
3 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So let's clear this up: A JNA member appears only once the
6 shooting or, rather, the explosion was heard?
7 A. When the shooting stopped, he appeared.
8 Q. Very well. After the shooting, he appeared?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it true, then, that the first reaction of that JNA member, when
11 he saw what had happened, was to inquire what had happened? And you say
12 that on page 6 in the one but last paragraph. Anyway, that is what is
13 stated in your statement. Was his reaction best proof that he had nothing
14 to do with your being taken to the minefield?
15 A. I don't know about his reaction, but I know that no one could
16 leave the village without a pass. We would be given a red pass.
17 Q. When you left the village, did you do so with a pass or in the
18 form of a column to do some work?
19 A. Yes. We went past as a column. The army lifted the barrier, and
20 we passed.
21 Q. When was this?
22 A. This was on the 18th of October.
23 Q. And you were villagers. You're going to do some work. You're
24 passing by, you're going together with these others, and they're letting
25 you by. They're letting you pass. They're not asking you where you're
1 going. What have they got to do with it? Isn't that logical?
2 A. We weren't going to do work escorted by armed men. Earlier on, we
3 went in smaller groups of two or threes, with two or three of them
4 escorting us.
5 Q. Yes, but I think we've covered this. He explained to the officer
6 that the Ustashas had planted the mines, and the officer then ordered them
7 to take care of the wounded - saying that that was not true - to take them
8 immediately to the hospital and for the rest to be taken back to the
9 village. Isn't that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can we establish that no people from the army were implicated in
12 the things you testified about?
13 A. We cannot, because I think the army knew everything that was
14 happening. They must have known about this.
15 Q. That is your assumption. It is a customary assumption. But
16 judging by the reaction of the officer that you described, it appears
18 You mentioned that there's some sort of a document to the effect
19 that Croats were forced to sign over their property to the SAO Krajina.
20 Did you see that document? Did you sign such a document?
21 A. I personally didn't sign it because I fled.
22 Q. But did you see such a document?
23 A. I didn't see it, but I talked to people who had to sign it when
24 they were forced out of the village.
25 Q. Don't you find that a little -- I don't know how to put it -- a
1 rather transparent fabrication. You know that if somebody does something
2 under coercion, it has no legal effect. So what would be the purpose of
3 anyone signing a document under force of arms? Signing of such a document
4 could only have a formal significance. Did someone make that up?
5 A. I think no one made it up.
6 Q. And you believe that such a thing is possible?
7 A. I do believe it.
8 Q. Then I won't try to convince you of the highly questionable
9 truthfulness of that.
10 I tried to find this in your statement and I failed to, to the
11 effect that Croats in Lovas had to wear white bands around their arms.
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. But this is a very major thing. It would be a sign, a
14 discriminating sign, based on ethnicity. Do you agree?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. Well, how come you didn't mention such a cardinal -- a fact of
17 cardinal importance in your statement?
18 A. I think it is somewhere in the statement.
19 Q. Please help me find it. If you can find it, there's no need for
20 you to answer that question.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Milosevic is
22 right. There's no such reference. I read through the statement several
23 times. This paragraph, it is on page 4, second paragraph of the English
24 version, and there's only mention made of the marking of a house, and the
25 houses that were searched and no weapons were found in them, and he was
1 told this by a neighbour of his.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All Croats had to wear white bands.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Very well. Now, if that is what you claim now, and we agreed that
5 this is of crucial importance, how is it that you failed to mention such a
6 crucial fact in your statement if it is true?
7 A. I said that the houses had to be marked with white sheets.
8 Q. Yes, but houses that had been examined and searched in a legal
9 action of the seizure of weapons. And they were searching the houses for
10 weapons. And we noted earlier on that you had weapons. Therefore,
11 there's no dispute about that?
12 A. But only Croatian houses had to have these white markings.
13 Q. But I assume that the houses that had been searched were marked.
14 Those that were not searched were not marked.
15 A. All the Croatian houses were marked.
16 Q. Are you trying to say that only Croatian houses were searched and
17 no Serb houses were searched?
18 A. Not a single one was touched.
19 Q. But this wasn't a sign that it was a Croatian house but that it
20 has been searched and that there were no weapons.
21 A. No. All Croatian houses were marked with those sheets.
22 Q. But in your statement - and you heard a moment ago a quotation -
23 that this was a mark that the houses had been searched.
24 A. But they went from one Croatian house to another to search each
25 and every one of them.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Very well, thank you.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I need two
4 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] First, let's clear up what we have just referred
6 to. In your statement you said that Grkovic, a friend of yours from the
7 village with whom you were on good terms, took you aside and told you to
8 stay in the house and to put a white piece of textile on the gate to
9 indicate that it was a Croatian house and that somebody had already
10 inspected it. You were told this by Grkovic, your neighbour from the
11 village, and no one else?
12 A. No one else.
13 Q. And just one more question: You said -- this is on page 3, third
14 paragraph of the English version, and page 3, second paragraph of the
15 B/C/S version: "I should not forget to say that just before the meeting
16 in the village of the previous day, several Croatian policemen came from
17 Ilok, collected the few Kalashnikovs we had and took them to Ilok."
18 So before the search was carried out, the Croatian policemen
19 collected the Kalashnikovs they had distributed earlier on; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. McKEON: I just have a very few questions, Your Honour.
23 Re-examined by Mr. McKeon:
24 Q. You were asked by the accused whether you were aware that before
25 you were asked to turn in all of your weapons, whether you were aware that
1 the Presidency of Yugoslavia had made a decision to disarm all of those
2 who were unlawfully in possession of weapons. My question to you, sir, is
3 about the paramilitaries that came in after the tank fire. Were they all
4 carrying weapons?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the paramilitaries that roamed freely around the village while
7 the JNA was there, were they all carrying weapons?
8 A. All of them had weapons.
9 Q. The paramilitaries that accompanied you from the Zadruga out to
10 the clover field, were they all carrying weapons?
11 A. All of them had automatic rifles and pistols attached to their
13 Q. Could you tell us how far from the clover field was the JNA
14 checkpoint that you had to pass by?
15 A. About 600 metres.
16 Q. Now, you were asked questions about the JNA car that came by after
17 the explosion, and you said that it had come from the village. After the
18 JNA officer asked what was going on and asked about the explosion, did he
19 turn around, go back to the village, or did he continue in the same
20 direction that had he been going?
21 A. He continued where he'd been going, towards the exit to the
23 Q. Did anyone from the JNA checkpoint, or any JNA soldier, for that
24 matter, other than this man that drove by in his car, come out to the
25 field to see what had caused this explosion about 600 metres away from the
1 JNA checkpoint?
2 A. No.
3 Q. When -- after you collected the bodies and had the bodies on the
4 truck and were driving them back to the village, did you have to go
5 through the JNA checkpoint again?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And after you went -- as you were going through the checkpoint,
8 did you observe any discussions between the people that had taken you out
9 there and the JNA officers, asking you or asking them what all these
10 bodies were that were lying on this truck and what had caused these
12 A. They didn't ask anything.
13 Q. Now, finally, you were asked by the accused about the locals who
14 took place -- who took part in the searches that took place on the first
15 day. You were asked whether in fact they hadn't left the village, they
16 were there, and you said no, they came from another village.
17 Did the local Serbs leave your village of Lovas at some point
18 before the main JNA attack on the village took place on the 10th of
20 A. We didn't see some of them. We hadn't seen some of them a day or
21 two before, and some of them on the night before the attack were in a
22 coffee bar with me, but in the morning they all went off together with the
23 unknown people and with the locals.
24 Q. And finally, you referred to some Kalashnikovs, and I think the
25 amici may have covered this as well, but at the time that you were being
1 asked -- your villagers were being asked at the meeting with the JNA to
2 turn in all automatic weapons, at that point, had all of the Kalashnikovs
3 already been turned in, as far as you know, or were there still automatic
4 weapons in the village?
5 A. As far as I know, when the officer asked them to be turned in,
6 there were none left in the village.
7 MR. McKEON: Thank you, Your Honour. That's all I have.
8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Witness C-1204, thank you for coming to
9 the Tribunal to give your evidence. It's now concluded. You're free to
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE MAY: May we have an exhibit number for the statement,
15 THE REGISTRAR: That's Prosecutor's Exhibit 369.
16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now. Monday morning,
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of January,
20 2003, at 9.00 a.m.