1 Wednesday, 5 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 WITNESS: VESNA BOSANAC [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

10 Q. [Interpretation] The events that you testified about yesterday or,

11 rather, what Mr. Nice read out and you said was your testimony --

12 JUDGE MAY: No. Let us be accurate. It is her testimony because

13 the witness gave evidence about it on a previous occasion, and that's its

14 status, and that should be understood. Yes.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Yes. Did the JNA or, rather, the members of the JNA protect the

17 Croatian population from possible violence under the circumstances and in

18 the situation that prevailed in Vukovar at that time?

19 A. The Yugoslav army went out of the barracks and advanced towards

20 Borovo Selo. And that was in May 1991 already. It shelled Vukovar every

21 day. It killed innocent civilians, women and children.

22 JUDGE MAY: You are -- perhaps we could just concentrate on the

23 question, if you would, Doctor. You're saying, then, are you, that you

24 don't agree that they were protecting, the JNA were protecting the

25 population. You disagree with that.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I realise what Mr. Milosevic is

2 in fact asking me and wants to ask me. He's asking me whether the

3 Yugoslav People's Army saved any lives after the occupation.

4 JUDGE MAY: No. No. Let -- please. Please just concentrate on

5 the question. And I think you could give a fairly short answer, because

6 what he's asking is - and this is his case - that the JNA were protecting

7 the population at the time in Vukovar. And I think you could probably say

8 yes or no to that, can't you? There's no need to repeat the evidence

9 which we've already heard. That's the point I'm trying to make.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then my answer is no.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. All right. If your answer is no, then I'm asking you this: As

14 this is your document, your statement, in fact, it's not anybody else's

15 document, it's written in your own handwriting, and in that document, on

16 page 2, once again written in hand by you, it says at the end: "The JNA

17 protected the Croats from the extremists," the nationalist extremists,

18 oriented that way, and so on and so forth. That's what you say in your

19 own statement. Isn't that right?

20 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy of the statement, first of

21 all. Have you got a copy there?

22 MR. NICE: No. I think the accused may be cross-examining from a

23 document that the witness has not seen since its creation, but I'm not

24 sure. Once he shows it to her she will be able to give an account of its

25 provenance.

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness see the document, Mr. Milosevic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, you can have a look at part of

3 that document because I don't have time to refer to the whole document.

4 I'm just going to refer to certain portions of it, and you can take it as

5 an exhibit. It is a statement written in the handwriting of the witness.

6 In her own hand.

7 MR. NICE: Since I believe I know what the document is, I'm not

8 sure whether the accused has handed to her an incomplete version or a

9 incomplete version. It might be important that a complete version is made

10 available to her and to us.

11 JUDGE MAY: Can you help us as to what the document is, Mr. Nice?

12 Do you know?

13 MR. NICE: I think we'll hear it's a document that was obtained in

14 the course of the witness's time in custody, but I'm not sure.

15 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's hear from the witness.

16 Dr. Bosanac, can you tell us what that document is, please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's the statement which I

18 wrote when I was in detention, in custody in Serbia, in Sremska Mitrovica,

19 in fact, and in Belgrade as well, and that's when I was duty-bound to make

20 this kind of statement, and I wrote it down. And in that context, Mr.

21 Milosevic asked me whether this is my opinion about some of the people

22 who, after the occupation, were protected by the JNA. However, over 1.300

23 were left to the paramilitaries to kill.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And where did you write that, that over 1.300 were allowed to be

1 killed by the paramilitaries? In that statement, you speak about --

2 A. At that time, I didn't know about that. This is something I

3 learnt later on. I learn how many were allowed to be killed later on.

4 Q. Well, are you talking about the victims that fell casualty in

5 conflicts or some kind of execution performed over these 1.300 people?

6 A. Execution. The aggression against Vukovar was such that there

7 were no conflicts. What did happen was the destruction of towns and

8 civilians, and in that conflict 1.500 people. Seventy per cent of those

9 people were civilians, and 1.300 were killed after the occupation of

10 Vukovar when there were no more conflicts whatsoever.

11 Q. I'm asking you whether the JNA perpetrated these acts, the acts

12 that you're talking about. In your conflict, in the conflict in Vukovar,

13 did the JNA endeavour to protect one and all equally, Serbs, Croats,

14 Hungarians and members of other national minorities living there?

15 A. No, it did not.

16 Q. Well, why did you write that it did, then?

17 A. I did not write that it did protect everybody equally and

18 partially. When the Yugoslav army occupied Vukovar, together with the

19 paramilitary forces, it allowed the paramilitary forces to take the

20 wounded away and kill them, and that is what Major Sljivancanin allowed,

21 as representative of the JNA. It took over the hospital and the people

22 were killed -- 200 people were killed at Ovcara in a very violent and

23 brutal manner.

24 Q. All right. We'll come to that. According to my information, the

25 JNA has nothing to do with these killings at Ovcara, but as you know your

1 handwriting very well, you can read for yourself what you wrote on page 2

2 and what I have marked with a marker pen, and the portion I quoted when I

3 asked you my question. So you can read it out yourself what you yourself

4 wrote in the statement.

5 A. I have read what it says in the statement. I haven't seen this

6 statement since 1991. I was being interrogated while in prison, while in

7 custody, and I cannot read out the whole statement now. If need be, I can

8 read it out and comment every sentence of it.

9 Q. Well, I'm not asking you to read out the whole statement. I don't

10 think there's any misunderstanding there. Just turn the first page and

11 take a look at the bottom of the second page and you'll find the sentence

12 that you yourself wrote in which I have marked with a marker pen.

13 A. Yes, that's right, you have marked it as being written by me, but

14 I say that it protected individuals, but it allowed people to be killed en

15 masse, not only Croats but Hungarians and Serbs as well.

16 Q. All right. Permitted the killing of people. That's what you say?

17 A. And killed itself.

18 Q. All right. And killed itself. But nonetheless, read out, if you

19 would, what you yourself wrote down. Read it out loud, please.

20 A. You quoted only part of the sentence on page 2.

21 Q. Yes, but please read it out.

22 A. This is what it says: "The JNA nonetheless protected the Croats

23 from retaliation by Serb nationalists, mostly of the Chetnik orientation."

24 That is what I wrote at the time that I was in prison, and that was in

25 1991. But the JNA, had it really protected the Croats, then 1.300 people

1 would not have been killed after the occupation.

2 Q. All right. Are you claiming that you wrote that statement under

3 duress?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right, then. And how come that at the end of your statement -

6 and I'll give you this page to take a look at it for yourself - how come

7 you say to the colonel who conducted the investigation with me and

8 analysed the events, why do you say, "I thank him" -- then there's

9 something that I can't read, but: "I thank him for his humane conduct and

10 giving us hope that in the JNA there are people who wish peace and who are

11 humane and would like to see cohabitation of all peoples living in the

12 area. And he was highly proper in his conduct towards me as a man and

13 towards me as a person."

14 So this person who interrogated you did not exert any pressure.

15 He talked to you in a proper fashion, humanely, or perhaps do you say that

16 he forced you to write all this down?

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE MAY: Let us, first of all, deal with this in an orderly

19 way. Before we move on from the first passage which has been read out, is

20 there anything else from the statement? You said that it was incomplete,

21 what you read out. Is there anything you would like to read out before we

22 go on to deal with the next passage?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. I don't have time.

24 JUDGE MAY: Don't interrupt, Mr. Milosevic. The witness should

25 have the opportunity to deal with the matter fully.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Judge, Your Honour, this

2 statement was written in 1991, in November and December. I was taken into

3 custody without any reason and was kept in detention for three weeks under

4 pressure in Serbian prisons. I have also given testimony about that to

5 this court. I was under enormous psychological pressure. I was held in a

6 solitary confinement cell for two days. I was completely isolated. After

7 that, I was given the chance of writing the statement for me to be able to

8 come into contact at all with, or to do anything for myself, to help

9 myself leave prison. So I was under enormous pressure, under duress, and

10 I listened how people were being beaten every day. I heard their screams

11 and their cries, and I wrote this statement down all the days I was there.

12 I wanted to write the whole truth. I wanted to write down that the

13 Yugoslav army had broken up Vukovar, had killed people up until the

14 occupation because at that time I didn't know what happened after the

15 occupation.

16 The Yugoslav army helped bring about the evacuation of the

17 hospital, but that's what I said earlier on.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Dr. Bosanac, you've given evidence about that.

19 We ought just to deal with the statement at the moment.

20 Now, Mr. Milosevic, is there another part of the statement which

21 you have just read out or have you got a copy of it? If not, the witness

22 should have that section which you've read out.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I've got that section and what

24 I quoted a moment ago. She can take a look at it, because she's talking

25 about some terrible treatment there. However, at the end, she expresses

1 her gratitude for the humane conduct of this person and giving her hope

2 that peace could be reached. But here you have it. Please take it and

3 read it, read what you say at the end of your statement.

4 MR. NICE: While the witness is doing that and to save time, can I

5 insist, please, on behalf of the Prosecution, that the full statement is

6 produced. We'll then copy it. The question will arise whether it should

7 become an exhibit or maybe that question can be determined. We must

8 have a full copy of the whole statement, not selected bits. The Chamber

9 will find that the witness referred to it at page 413 of the Dokmanovic

10 transcript. And it's a 112-page statement as she then recorded it as

11 being, I think, if this is the statement with which we're concerned.

12 JUDGE MAY: Now, you've been given another part of the statement,

13 Dr. Bosanac. Would you deal, first of all, with is said there. Is there

14 anything you want to add to that as to why you wrote that about the JNA --

15 or about the colonel, rather?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have this last page here in front

17 of me, the last page of that statement of mine. I repeat, I wrote it

18 under duress in prison and in the context of the entire situation, I mean

19 the way I felt then. The truth is that Colonel Branko was correct towards

20 me. He did not mistreat me physically or mentally, and that is what I

21 wrote down. But what I saw in the camp is something quite different,

22 except for the way Colonel Branko treated me.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. All right. Let's leave that aside, then. Could you please read

25 out what you wrote. Could you read it out loud.

1 A. By leave of the Judge, I can read it. As I said, this is a

2 statement that was written in prison. "Colonel Branko, who talked to me

3 and who analysed events with me, I would like to thank him sincerely for

4 his humane approach and for instilling hope that there are people in the

5 Yugoslav People's Army who want peace and humane co-existence among all

6 the national groups in the area. He had an exceptional attitude towards

7 me as a person and as a physician."

8 I stated that and that is what I believe until the present day as

9 far as Colonel Branko is concerned. However, unfortunately, Colonel

10 Branko was one of the very few ones in the Yugoslav People's Army who

11 behaved that way.

12 Q. All right. You have experience with him, but you don't have

13 experience with others.

14 A. Oh, yes, I do, Mr. Milosevic. I do have experience with others as

15 well.

16 Q. All right. Then we're going to get to these others. But we have

17 to save time. So please tell me, in your statement, you talk about

18 soldier Sasa Jovic, and that he, together with you, sought a cease-fire.

19 He says that you always came to the room accompanied by two armed guards.

20 Is that right or is that not right?

21 A. No, it's not. No, it's not.

22 Q. I have here the interview that he gave. 20-year-old sergeant of

23 the JNA, wounded after 17 days spent in an Ustasha environment, and he was

24 brought to the Vukovar Hospital, and he became a patient of Dr. Bosanac,

25 and her armed guards spent much more time by his sickbed than she did,

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1 brainwashing him with a pistol and a bomb. He said, "I saw Dr. Bosanac

2 every day. She always came to our room accompanied by two armed guards."

3 That is his interview.

4 There are many other allegations made in it.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you must bring these questions to a

6 point. We can't go on in this way with you reading out long chunks.

7 First of all, do you know, Dr. Bosanac, who the accused is talking

8 about, a soldier called Sasa Jovic?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sasa Jovic. I know this soldier,

10 Sasa Jovic. He was treated in hospital. He signed these appeals that I

11 wrote aimed at a cease-fire. I don't know what interview this is and what

12 kind of information Mr. Milosevic is referring to. I'm just claiming that

13 this is incorrect. It is not correct that I was accompanied by armed

14 soldiers when I went to patients' rooms. That is not true.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. All right. Do you remember that your colleague, Dr. Njavro Jure,

17 also always went around accompanied by two armed men? Do you remember

18 that he, for example, asked that Dr. Ivankovic resign? Is that right or

19 is that not right?

20 A. No, it's not. No, it's not.

21 Q. You denied that the hospital was used as a location from which

22 various weapons were used to shoot at the army. You denied that

23 completely; right?

24 A. Of course I denied it, because the hospital was not a military

25 facility and there was no shooting done from there. However, every day

1 the hospital was shelled by 90, 100 or more shells. That is a precedent.

2 That is a war crime. However, there was no shooting from the hospital

3 against the army because it was impossible to shoot from the army at army

4 -- from the hospital at army positions that were three kilometres away.

5 What you are saying is illogical and senseless.

6 Q. I'm sorry that this seems illogical to you, but there are many

7 witnesses who claim the opposite, the exact opposite, but their turn will

8 come too.

9 Mrs. Bosanac, according to the allegations made by your colleagues

10 who worked together with you, they are ethnic Serbs, ethnic Croats, ethnic

11 Hungarians, you not only denied the Serbs medical treatment, but some

12 persons, according to your orders, were arrested, guarded in the basement

13 of the hospital, or they were handed over to well-known torturers.

14 A. That's not true.

15 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We'll deal with one thing at a time.

16 The allegation is made that, first of all, that you denied Serbs medical

17 treatment. Is there any truth in that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, absolutely not.

19 JUDGE MAY: The next allegation is that you ordered the arrest of

20 some people and their guarding in the basement of the hospital.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not true.

22 JUDGE MAY: Were there any prisoners in the basement of the

23 hospital?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. All right. Your colleague, I assume that you know him,

3 Dr. Tomislav Djuranec, director of the medical centre in Borovo. Do you

4 know that colleague of yours? I assume you do. You do, don't you?

5 A. Of course I do.

6 Q. On the 18th of December, 1991, he says, as a witness, that the ZNG

7 brought him in because you personally ordered to have him brought to the

8 police station. Is that right or is that not right?

9 A. No, it's not.

10 Q. He says that you ordered the Croatian policemen to take him to the

11 warehouse of the Borovo Kombinat and that he should not be allowed to go

12 anywhere let alone go to the police station. Is that right or is that not

13 right?

14 A. No, that's not right. It's not right. What you're saying is not

15 right. If you wish, I can describe these events to you.

16 Q. You don't have to describe anything.

17 A. What you're saying is not correct. What you're saying right now

18 is not correct. Dr. Djuranec -- I mean, Dr. Djuranec probably wrote this

19 under duress in prison because he was also in prison in Stajicevo.

20 JUDGE MAY: You can add anything you want about that doctor.

21 Because of the seriousness of these allegations which are being made

22 against you, you should have the opportunity to answer them. Now, is

23 there anything you want to add about Dr. Djuranec? It's suggested you had

24 him arrested.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that that was not

1 true. Dr. Djuranec was not under my authority at all. As director of the

2 medical centre, he was in a completely different area. He was not under

3 the Vukovar Medical Centre. He is a person who wanted to help in the

4 entire situation. I heard that he was hiding some kind of medicaments and

5 medical supplies, generally speaking, at the time when we did not have

6 even the most basic supplies that were needed for treating the wounded.

7 However, I did not talk to him, I did not talk to the police, nor do I

8 have anything to do with him.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you aware, Doctor, that he was in fact

10 arrested?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard from some of these soldiers

12 who came that he was brought in for interrogation because they found these

13 medical supplies at his place. However, I personally do not know whether

14 he had been arrested or what he had stated. I know that he was in camp,

15 like I was, and I know that, during the exchange, he decided to remain on

16 the other side. I also know that he was a very unhappy man because his

17 son was killed during those days in the defence of Vukovar.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... his arrest.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. He says - this is court transcript - "Dr. Vesna Bosanac, director

22 of the Vukovar Hospital, accused me of having been inactive, of having

23 hidden medical supplies for the Serbs who came to the shelter, that in

24 April this year I gave oxygen to Dr. Jovic from Borovo Selo."

25 A. No. No, I did not accuse him at all, nor do I know anything about

1 this.

2 Q. He says that he denied that, and he says: "During the

3 conversation, they took me to Bosanac, and she ordered me to go to the

4 warehouse in Borovo Kombinat and that I was not allowed to go anywhere.

5 That is the direct order she gave to the military police that escorted me,

6 and the military police took me from the Vukovar Hospital and handed me

7 over to Kacusec, who was head in Borovo Selo of --"

8 A. It's not the way you're putting it. The fact is that he was in

9 this shelter in the basement of Borovo Naselje, however, when -- as for

10 his arrest and interrogation, I had nothing to do with that whatsoever, I

11 had no idea about that.

12 Q. Do you know anything about what it says further on in this court

13 transcript: When he came to the rooms where they tortured him, where this

14 Zdenko Stefancic was, next to the door, on the floor in that room, there

15 was a stretcher and on that stretcher was Toma Gipsar from the Vukovar

16 Hospital. He was wearing hospital pyjamas and he wore a hospital robe as

17 well. He had been wounded.

18 Why was he transferred from the Vukovar Hospital in pyjamas, in

19 hospital pyjamas, to prison, Mrs. Bosanac? Was that on your orders or

20 not?

21 A. No. Absolutely no one was transferred to any kind of prison on my

22 orders. Tomo Jakovljevic, who had been wounded and who had had an

23 amputation - he was wounded by a shell of the Yugoslav People's Army too -

24 after having been treated for three weeks, after he had been given primary

25 medical assistance, like all other wounded persons - every day there were

1 about 15 to 20 of them - he was sent off to reserve hospitals and civilian

2 shelters, and that is how he was sent to Borovokomerc.

3 Q. All right. Do you know that this Toma Jakovljevic, in hospital

4 pyjamas, was found by his own son? He was found dead. He was

5 bullet-riddled in the chest.

6 A. I don't know about that.

7 Q. Radivoje Jakovljevic, that is the son of the killed Jakovljevic,

8 says that he had to run away from Vukovar because of the danger of him

9 being liquidated. And on the 22nd of November in Borovo Naselje, near the

10 kindergarten in the centre of Borovo Naselje, he found a heap where people

11 were one over the other, and his father had been hit by a burst of gunfire

12 in the chest and he was wearing a hospital bathrobe.

13 A. I can't say anything about that because I did not hear about it.

14 I did not see any such thing.

15 Q. How could he have been taken out of hospital without your

16 permission in order to be executed?

17 A. That is not correct. He was not taken out of hospital. He was

18 sent from the hospital, together with 15 other wounded persons who had

19 already been cured, to the reserve hospital of Borovokomerc.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. How he got killed and how he happened to be there is something

22 that I don't know.

23 Q. Tell me, this Tomislav Djuranec - because this is what Mr. May was

24 interested in yesterday - what he was in terms of his ethnic background,

25 this first doctor who gave a statement, was Tomislav Djuranec by

1 ethnicity?

2 A. I don't know. I think he's a Croat, but you'll have to ask him

3 about that.

4 Q. Well, he accuses you considerably. Are you claiming that his

5 accusations levelled against you were made under duress, under pressure

6 exerted by the investigating judge in the military court, or that there is

7 a grain of truth in this, in what I've read out to you?

8 A. I am not asserting anything as to how he stated that and under

9 what kind of pressure, but I do know that I did not take part in anybody's

10 arrest or is any of that correct, and I decisively deny that.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. Could this be admitted into

12 evidence, this court transcript?

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This transcript --

15 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, please. This is the statement of a

16 witness made to a military court. You are the first to object if any

17 statement is put in uncross-examined and the same principle must apply to

18 you as it does to the Prosecution, must it not? If you want to call that

19 witness, you can do so in due course.

20 JUDGE KWON: How about the statement of this witness? Are you

21 going to exhibit it?

22 JUDGE MAY: The statement of the -- the written statement of the

23 witness that you referred to earlier.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a court transcript

25 concerning the statement that this witness gave before a court of law.

1 JUDGE MAY: No. We're at cross-purposes. Wait a moment. We're

2 talking now about the statement that Dr. Bosanac made in handwriting,

3 which you referred to earlier.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The statement of Dr. Bosanac you

5 mean. Of course you should have it exhibited. Of course I think it

6 should be admitted.

7 JUDGE MAY: Right. Now, have we got the entire statement? Have

8 you got the entire statement there as opposed to merely part of it?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the entire --

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have the entire statement.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot assess that

12 because this is the first time I see this pile of paper. However, I

13 repeat that I wrote this statement under very special circumstances, in

14 prison, as a prisoner in a Serb camp.

15 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Is this all that you have of that

16 statement?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. No. No. Precisely. That's

18 what I'm trying to say. No, it's not. I have more here. I have three

19 more pages. And I have to put a few questions in relation to that and

20 then I'm going to give it to you, and that will be the entire statement

21 then.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the Prosecution would obviously first wish

24 to have the whole statement; it will then organise its copying. And we

25 would like to reserve our position on its admissibility when we've

1 reviewed the entirety of the witness's answers in relation to it.

2 JUDGE MAY: Just address us, if you would, on the statement which

3 the witness has made that was being referred to the -- sorry. I want to

4 make it plain. Deal with this in two ways: First of all, there is the

5 statement which the accused has been cross-examining on.

6 MR. NICE: Inadmissible, for the usual reasons.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Perhaps you would explain the position.

8 MR. NICE: Inadmissible for the usual reasons. Out of court

9 statements are not ordinarily admissible. I think there's been one

10 exception that we've recently encountered where there was a statement

11 taken by ICTY investigators that the accused wanted to go in because it

12 contained large numbers of matters of apparent detail in relation to the

13 Dubrovnik shelling or fortifications, and that went in as an express

14 exception to the general rule and practice of this Trial Chamber. All

15 other rulings having been along the usual lines, statements relied on by

16 the accused to make allegations are no more valuable as evidential

17 material than the allegations themselves. They only become of value if

18 and when they are attested to by the relevant witness as part of a defence

19 case. So that these statements that the accused is cross-examining on, so

20 he says, are within that general rule of exclusion. And if we make an

21 exception for any of these statements, where will it end?

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. They're uncross-examined, and we have

23 consistently refused the Prosecution admission of statements which have

24 not been cross-examined where we are now having to consider admissibility

25 under a particular Rule, Rule 92 bis.

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1 MR. NICE: That's different -- and if it becomes relevant to

2 consider applications to remit statements as part of the defence case in

3 due course, they'll have to be considered then. This material simply

4 should not be admitted. It has no evidential value or status and will

5 simply burden the record.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay.

8 MR. KAY: Yes. Any statement made by this witness, of course,

9 whether to an investigator or within proceedings at this court or

10 elsewhere is capable of being used by the accused in cross-examination and

11 it being exhibited as well as part of the material of this trial. It may

12 be of great relevance if it contains inconsistencies and any other

13 material within that statement.

14 The position of statements made by other people who cite incidents

15 with this witness and have made statements elsewhere in their dealings

16 with this witness, which seem to be also some of the material that the

17 accused is seeking to use, he's entitled to put those statements and ask

18 the witness to deal with them and then he can make his own decision later

19 on in the trial whether he wants to call the maker of that statement or

20 who has commented about this witness, whether he wants to call then as a

21 witness or not. But it would be appropriate for him to put such

22 statements made by other people and give this witness the opportunity to

23 deal with then.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the statement itself --

25 MR. KAY: Yes.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The statement itself would generally not be

2 admitted.

3 MR. KAY: It wouldn't be an exhibit because the author of it isn't

4 here. But to have it as a piece of paper or document that you can look at

5 to see what was being said is obviously a helpful aid in the trial

6 process. But whatever --

7 JUDGE MAY: That's a rather complicated distinction, Mr. Kay,

8 between an exhibit and something which is helpful to look at.

9 MR. KAY: It's just aiding to see where the questioner is going.

10 JUDGE MAY: I think he's capable of putting his own questions, as

11 he has done, from the statements.

12 MR. KAY: Yes, he is, and he should be able to do that, in our

13 submission.

14 JUDGE MAY: But that brings us back to the statement which is made

15 by this witness in the circumstances which he's described. That, you say,

16 is admissible as an exhibit in the case.

17 MR. KAY: Absolutely.

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, unless there's some reason why not, I think

19 we would probably be minded to exhibit this statement. It looks as though

20 it's all there.

21 MR. NICE: If it's all there, then let's get it copied and make it

22 available.

23 JUDGE MAY: We'll exhibit the witness's statement. Let the

24 witness have it back because the accused wants to ask one or two more

25 questions about it. If you would do that and then hand in the other

1 pages, then we'll finally exhibit it.

2 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you go on, Mr. Milosevic, I wanted to ask

4 you, Doctor, about your relationship with Dr. Djuranec who made these

5 accusations against you. In terms of the hospital hierarchy, you would

6 have been senior to Dr. Djuranec?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Djuranec did not work at the

8 hospital at all. I was the director of the Vukovar Medical Centre, which

9 comprised a hospital and primary health care clinic. There was another

10 organisation, the Borovo health centre, of which Mr. Djuranec was the

11 director.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. So you in fact had no working

13 relationship with him.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So much the worse, as you accuse him of hiding medical supplies

18 for the Serbs who came to the shelter, that you ordered him to go to the

19 warehouse in Borovo Kombinat and not to move anywhere, that you ordered

20 the police to arrest him and that the police took him from the Vukovar

21 Hospital and handed him over to Ivica Kacusec, the commander in Borovo

22 Naselje. That's what he said.

23 A. What you are saying has nothing to do with the truth. It's

24 absolutely untrue.

25 Q. It's a statement.

1 A. It may be a statement, but what I'm saying is that what you have

2 read out is not correct.

3 Q. This is a court record on the questioning of this witness. I have

4 no reason to tell falsehoods?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, will you exhibit this or

6 not?

7 JUDGE MAY: No. We've ruled on that. We're not exhibiting it.

8 You've heard the reasons. It's a statement made out of court which we're

9 not going to exhibit. You can call the witness. That's your remedy. Call

10 Dr. Djuranec and we'll hear what he's got to say.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. This Toma Gipsar was an employee of your hospital, was he not,

14 Mrs. Bosanac?

15 A. He was retired.

16 Q. He was taken from the hospital in hospital pyjamas and shot.

17 A. I repeat, he was retired. He was brought to the hospital as a

18 wounded civilian, retiree - let me finish - who was operated on, and like

19 other wounded patients whose condition had improved, he was taken to

20 Borovo Naselje to the reserve shelter, because we received 90 new wounded

21 every day. So we sent those whose condition had improved to civilian

22 shelters. The shelter in Borovo Naselje was the best one. It had water,

23 electricity, medical treatment was available there, and he was sent there

24 from hospital.

25 As for the other circumstances, how he was killed and what

1 happened, I can say nothing about that because I don't know.

2 Q. Were people sent there so that, after that, the members of the

3 National Guard Corps could take them out and shoot them?

4 A. No. In my view, they were not. I don't know what you're talking

5 about.

6 Q. His son who found him in hospital pyjamas also found his mother,

7 also riddled with bullets.

8 A. I cannot say anything about how they died or what happened. I

9 know that his son - I heard this later - was on the Chetnik side and that

10 he perpetrated various crimes against Croats, that he was connected with

11 the murders in Velepromet and Ovcara, but that's just hearsay. I can't

12 say that.

13 Q. He probably killed his own parents?

14 A. I don't know that.

15 Q. Very well. Do you know that Martin Sabljic was the commander in

16 the collection centre where there were two and a half thousand people? Do

17 you know that or don't you?

18 A. It was not a collection centre, it was a shelter in Borovo

19 Naselje, where we organised a reserve hospital, where there were doctors,

20 where the wounded and sick civilians were looked after.

21 And this was not the only such shelter but it was the best one.

22 There was another one in Naradnecki Dom [phoen], in Olajnice [phoen].

23 There were 12 such shelters that we organised to hide civilians and where

24 we sent people who were ill or wounded but not seriously.

25 Q. In Borovo Naselje, was Zdenko Stefancic interrogated? Do you know

1 about Zdenko Stefancic?

2 A. No, I don't. I'm hearing this name for the first time.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly request that the speakers

4 pause between question and answer.

5 JUDGE MAY: Did you hear that? A request, please, for both to

6 pause after the question. Would you pause for the interpreters.

7 Mr. Milosevic, bear it in mind too.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. As you haven't heard of Zdenko Stefancic, am I to conclude that

10 you did not hand these people over to Zdenko Stefancic who was sentenced

11 to death because of the crimes he perpetrated there?

12 A. I never heard or saw or knew Zdenko Stefancic.

13 Q. Mladen Ivankovic says that he complained to you when he was beaten

14 by members of the National Guard Corps who cursed his Chetnik mother

15 because he was a Serb. They slapped him. And you, as a colleague of his,

16 replied that the people who were doing this were real heroes and that they

17 were fighting for the homeland and that they had beaten him because they

18 had found a cassette with Serbian songs on him.

19 A. That's not true.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume you also reject this record

21 which refers to Dr. Mladen Ivankovic and his testimony.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. For the same reasons.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Is it correct that he wanted to escape from the hospital in the

1 circumstances he was in and that you forbade him to leave the hospital?

2 A. He wasn't the only one. I forbade the whole staff from leaving

3 the hospital for one single reason, and that was that shells were falling

4 on the hospital and around it constantly.

5 Q. So you did this for his own safety?

6 A. Yes. Five people from the hospital had already been killed.

7 Q. Do you remember the event?

8 A. No one was allowed to leave the hospital without my permission.

9 The ambulances were not allowed to leave when they were to pick up the

10 wounded, and the same applied to Dr. Ivankovic. It applied to everybody,

11 because as soon as you left the hospital, you could be killed. They

12 didn't know this because they were in the basement, but they could hear

13 the shells falling.

14 Q. Do you remember the event described by the chief of surgery, your

15 colleague, when a Serb was brought in by the National Guard Corps, who had

16 a head wound, and do you remember that, according to the testimony of this

17 doctor, he was beaten in your hospital, and this young man behaved in a

18 dignified way but they continued to beat him although he had been brought

19 in as a wounded person?

20 A. This is absolutely not true. Several wounded Serb soldiers were

21 brought to our hospital, and they were all given the best possible medical

22 treatment. We managed to cure many of them. There were some we were

23 unable to save, unfortunately, but had anybody been -- or, rather, it is

24 absolutely untrue that anybody was beaten or mistreated. What you are

25 quoting is articles from Serbian newspapers.

1 In 1997, when we returned to Vukovar, Dr. Ivankovic met us there

2 and he told us that what the Serb newspapers were saying he had said was

3 not true. If you wish, you can call him as a witness, but nobody was

4 mistreated in the hospital because he was a Serb. Every wounded person

5 was given the best possible treatment under the circumstances.

6 Q. Do you know that this young man - and you say that he was not even

7 beaten - was liquidated on that same evening and thrown into the Danube

8 and that there is evidence to prove this?

9 A. I don't know what you're talking about.

10 Q. I'm talking about the man who was brought in by the ZNG and

11 beaten.

12 A. Nobody beat anyone in the hospital.

13 Q. Mrs. Bosanac, please answer yes or no and then you can say

14 whatever you like, it's up to you. But is it true that it was you who

15 tore out the page in the register saying that he had been admitted to

16 hospital?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Those who kept the records in the hospital testified to this.

19 A. I did not tear out any pages from the hospital register.

20 Q. Do you remember Nedeljko Turakalo, who was wounded in the leg and

21 in the stomach, and who was treated by your fellow fighter, Dr. Njavro who

22 intentionally allowed this man to bleed to death on the table and did not

23 help him? Is this correct or not?

24 A. No, it's not true.

25 Q. Do you remember Boban, who was 19 years old and also operated on

1 by Njavro and who died during the operation? Because before this, other

2 doctors had asked that he be operated on, but the operation was

3 continually delayed, so that when it finally started, there was no hope

4 for it to succeed. Do you remember this man Boban whom you also

5 intentionally allowed to die?

6 A. That is not true. Nobody intentionally allowed anybody to die. I

7 personally do not remember Boban Gacic, but I know for a fact that all the

8 wounded were treated in the same way and that nobody allowed anybody to

9 die on purpose.

10 Q. Is it true that this man Sasa Jovic called General Raseta on the

11 phone under duress?

12 A. No, that's not true. I asked him whether he wished to talk to him

13 because I had told Raseta that in the hospital there were also soldiers of

14 the JNA and that the hospital was being shelled every day, and he said he

15 couldn't believe this, and I asked Sasa Jovic whether he wished to speak

16 to him, and he said he did.

17 Q. Another colleague of yours, Djordje Kuzmanovic, said that on the

18 13th of November, soldier Ivica Nestorovic was brought to the hospital but

19 that you personally refused him admission to the hospital but handed him

20 over to the ZNG, and on that day that young man died and the members of

21 the National Guard Corps burnt his corpse. Do you remember this?

22 A. This is absolutely untrue. Ivica Nestorov was never brought to

23 the hospital for treatment. I cannot remember -- I know that I was asked

24 about this when I was in the prison in Mitrovica. There was a soldier who

25 was admitted to Borovo-Komerc, but because the tanks were blocking the way

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1 to the hospital, he couldn't be brought in. I think his name was Ivica

2 Nestorov but I'm not sure. Dr. Emejdi might be able to confirm this

3 because he worked in Borovo-Komerc. But this man never arrived in

4 hospital, or at least, I don't remember. I think that was the man who was

5 in Borovo. He couldn't have come because it was 12 days before the fall.

6 Q. Is it true -- is it true that the members of the JNA who were

7 brought in, that television crews were also brought in to film them and

8 that, after that, during the night, they disappeared, that when day broke

9 their beds would be empty, that these people ended up in the Danube, as

10 the nurses testified?

11 A. What you're saying absolutely never happened in Vukovar Hospital,

12 ever.

13 Q. Do you know how Branko Stankovic was killed? He was a patient in

14 your hospital. Do you know about that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You don't know that he was a patient either?

17 A. No, I don't.

18 Q. All right. Fine. Let's move on, then. He was even filmed in a

19 Croatian television programme. He was lightly wounded in the area below

20 the knee but was killed after that. So you don't know about that either,

21 do you?

22 A. No, I don't. And I have to say that in the Vukovar Hospital, from

23 the 25th of August until the 20th of November, 2.250 wounded persons were

24 admitted. Up until the 6th of November, we sent all these patients via

25 computer and fax to the sanitary medical centre, and there is a complete

1 record of all those patients, all those wounded people.

2 Q. Mrs. Bosanac, unfortunately, we have your own logbooks, your own

3 records, your own statistics as to how many operations were performed, and

4 I must say that the figures are far, far different from what you're

5 claiming, but I don't want to waste time on that now.

6 A. Well, it would be a good idea for you to hand over to this

7 Tribunal all those documents that were taken away after the hospital had

8 been occupied and is now at the medical military academy, and I can

9 recommend to the Trial Chamber to ask for those records, the complete

10 documents of the operations, the operations and surgery logbooks, and it

11 would be a good thing if the Trial Chamber were to ask for those

12 documents.

13 Q. We have to move on.

14 A. Those are the real issues, Mr. Milosevic, because everything is

15 written down in those records and documents.

16 Q. Mrs. Bosanac, I think that everything should be undertaken to

17 learn the truth.

18 A. Yes. That would be a good idea indeed.

19 Q. Yes. All those documents and everything else, but unfortunately,

20 it's quite contrary to what you're saying.

21 A. Well, just give up the documents and they'll see for themselves.

22 Q. Well, I haven't got them.

23 A. Well, you could ask for them.

24 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... this argument.

25 Just one moment. Yes.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Is it true that on the 17th of November, 1991, that is to say

3 immediately prior to the entrance of the JNA, that Croatian guardsmen

4 would come to the hospital, and members of MUP, to change their clothing,

5 to put on civilian clothes and hospital clothes, that in this way 200 of

6 them came in and tried to pull themselves out of the encirclement? Was

7 that how it was or not?

8 A. That was not how it was. On the 17th of November, and it was a

9 Sunday, the hospital was busy preparing itself for the evacuation. Records

10 were being written out, discharge papers, and so on and so forth. That

11 has nothing to do with these people changing their clothes. Nothing of

12 that nature happened in hospital.

13 Q. All right. So you say no, and we can move on.

14 A. I say no, yes.

15 Q. Is it true that a number of rifles in the X-ray room were stored,

16 that quite a lot of rifles were stored in the X-ray room. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And is it true that in those days before the JNA arrived, that the

20 hospital was generally used for storing weapons? Yes or no.

21 A. I did not permit that, nor do I have any knowledge as to that.

22 Q. Do you know a man who was nicknamed Srna or Do who came to the

23 hospital and asked that all the soldiers be killed?

24 A. I do remember that man, but he did not ask that all the soldiers

25 be killed. At least, he didn't tell me that.

1 Q. Well, did he ask for individual soldiers to be killed?

2 A. No. He didn't ask me anything like that.

3 Q. All right. Fine. Is it true that, together with Dr. Njavro -

4 because you and Njavro were actually at the head of all this business -

5 that you prepared medical documents where you listed as dead in those

6 documents and records members of the Croatian National Guard Corps who

7 were well known for the crimes they had committed in Vukovar in order to

8 protect them from the long arm of the law? Is that true? And your

9 colleagues say that it is.

10 A. No, it is not.

11 Q. Do you remember the number of death certificates issued and ID

12 papers of guardsmen who were not dead but in fact are still living, who

13 are alive?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. And is it true that on the night before the surrender, and this is

16 something that eyewitnesses have told us, have testified about, that they

17 saw these Croatian National Guards Corps members taking off their

18 uniforms, putting on civilian clothing, pretending to be staff of the

19 hospital. Many of them put plaster casts on their arms to make them

20 appear as having been injured. Is that true or not?

21 A. No, that's not true. And the hospital wasn't turned over. What

22 was happening was an evacuation organised by the International Red Cross

23 which wasn't conducted in the fashion it should have been.

24 Q. Were you the person who suggested to the Croatian National Guard

25 Corps members to come to the hospital, take off their uniforms, and put on

1 civilian clothing?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Skokic Miroslav, a member of the Croatian National Guard Corps,

4 who on the 9th of May made a statement as a witness, says in his statement

5 that he was mobilised on the 1st of October, 1991 and that in the general

6 chaos and noise that was going on in one of the halls where they were

7 mobilised, that you yourself appeared, and he says you said, and he quotes

8 you: "Who wants to go to the breakthrough and does not wish to surrender

9 can go behind the municipality building. Those of you who wish to remain

10 can go to the hospital with you where they will change their clothes, be

11 given a white hospital coat, and be included in a unit to cater to the

12 needs of the hospital."

13 Is that something that is not true?

14 A. I don't know what that's about. It's not true. I don't know what

15 you're talking about.

16 JUDGE MAY: Did anything like this happen? This is a very broad

17 allegation which the accused is making, that they were -- members of the

18 defence, essentially, were masquerading as patients. Although I must say

19 what the relevance of that, even if it is true, is. I don't know how that

20 can justify what happened to those men being taken over and shot and

21 executed in the way they were, over 200 [Realtime transcript read in error

22 "2006"] of them, I don't know. But since accused is asking it, did

23 anything like this happen at all?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What the accused has asked me to do,

25 to link this up with the name of this man Skokic, I don't know who the man

1 is, but this is what the situation was like with the hospital: There was

2 group of guardsmen, guards, who, from Jastreb, were ordered to provide

3 security for the hospital. These were eight men led by a man called

4 Tihomir Perkovic. They were in charge of providing safety and security

5 for the hospital, for ensuring that food could be brought in and medical

6 supplies, logistic support, things of that kind. And it is these men who

7 were in the hospital when the evacuation was being organised. And some of

8 them were found at Ovcara as well. Under what circumstances, I don't

9 know, and I don't know whether they've all been identified either.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you for that clarification. There is a

11 mistake in the transcript. I did not refer to 2006 being executed. The

12 figure was over 200, as I referred to it.

13 Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What I'm interested in, Mr. May, is

15 whether you have already taken up your positions and -- with respect to

16 this case, and that is how I'm to take your explanations, just in the way

17 you asked the witness yesterday --

18 JUDGE MAY: No, Mr. Milosevic. No. I'm merely -- and I'm going

19 to interrupt you because that's a totally improper observation. I'm

20 merely asking the witness to clarify her evidence. If you wish to clarify

21 your position as to the relevance of these questions, you can do so.

22 What I questioned is the relevance of whether there were guardsmen

23 dressed in civilian clothes and patients there or not. Now, you can

24 explain to us, if you will, what the relevance of this is, if it in any

25 way, you are saying, justifies -- just a moment -- justifies what happened

1 afterwards when these people were taken out and executed at Ovcara,

2 because that's the essential matter that we're dealing with.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the relevance of it lies in

4 the fact that the greatest criminals were allowed to take refuge there;

5 criminals who had perpetrated the most violent crimes. So when you talk

6 about the defenders of Vukovar in line with your assumed positions, these

7 were in fact criminals who had perpetrated crimes in Vukovar. That's the

8 first point.

9 Secondly --

10 JUDGE MAY: How does that compare to what happened at Ovcara, even

11 if it's right?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, as far as I'm concerned,

13 none of this is relevant, because from the information and facts I have,

14 which I assume are available to you too, Serbia has nothing to do with

15 Ovcara, and I was the president of Serbia. And I'm trying to explain here

16 that the JNA had nothing to do with Ovcara either, because the JNA enabled

17 the evacuation to take place of thousands of people from there.

18 And I'm sure you'll remember, Mrs. Bosanac, the evacuation from

19 Vukovar right down to --

20 JUDGE MAY: No. Mr. Milosevic, one thing you have to understand

21 is that it's not a defence to attack the other side. Now, I know, because

22 it's quite clear, that it is part of your strategy to do so, simply to

23 attack the Croats, but what you have to do understand, the war crime and

24 the crime with which you are charged with which this indictment deals is

25 concerned with what happened at Ovcara, and that is essentially what this

1 part of the evidence is about, leading up to.

2 Now, you choose to spend your time attacking the other side, but

3 we need to know what your defence is in relation to these particular

4 incidents and these killings.

5 Now, if you've got relevant questions as to that, of course we'll

6 listen to them. But merely listening to you attacking the other side is

7 of no assistance to us.

8 The witness has answered. She said, as far as she is concerned,

9 there were not criminals or anybody else dressed up as patients. Now,

10 she's answered that. You insist on going on, and it seems to me you're

11 wasting of the time of the Court. It's quite plain that she's given her

12 answer and nothing more can really be said about it. Why don't you move

13 on in the time which available to you, which is now limited, and deal with

14 the incidents at Ovcara. If you have got a case that you want to put in

15 relation to it, of course we'll hear it.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you be so kind as to tell me,

17 Mr. May, as a professional and legal man yourself, to explain to me this:

18 Do I have to prove that I have nothing to do with Ovcara or do those

19 people who - I didn't even know about this title - those who claim that I

20 have something to do with that, that the weight of proving it -- the

21 burden of proof is on them, they have to show that I did have something to

22 do with that and that all these accusations against the Serbs are true?

23 Do I have to prove that is not true or is the burden of proof on them,

24 those people who are claiming that the Serbs perpetrated the crimes,

25 should show that they did indeed commit them? So where does the burden of

1 proof lie, Mr. May?

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, let me add something this time. Your

3 case may be this, that JNA tried to sort out some war criminals or some

4 Serb forces from the Croat patients or among patients, but you don't have

5 -- when the witness denies that, you don't have to put every detail to

6 the witness. Later, you can call the witness who can give evidence about

7 that. At that time, the Court will decide what the truth was and what

8 weight is to be given to every witness. So move on, please.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kwon. I'm not

10 claiming -- the point isn't in the fact whether the JNA tried to find the

11 perpetrators. The point is that hiding this conspiracy in crime and that

12 they are trying to conceal the perpetrators of the most grievous crimes

13 and therefore, conspiracy in those crimes. And of course we're talking

14 about withholding medical treatment and aid to Serbs, and it also includes

15 the killings, some of which I have mentioned here, and so on and so forth.

16 JUDGE MAY: Precisely my point. How much further does that take

17 us, apart from your putting a negative case against the witness? What you

18 should be doing is concentrating on a positive case. You have to prove

19 nothing. But if you have a case, as you claim to, about the JNA not being

20 involved, then you should put it to the witness so that she can hear.

21 Now, let's move on.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mrs. Bosanac, is it true that at the time when you realised that

24 there was the danger of you being held accountable and responsible

25 precisely for the crimes you committed, that you started to disclose, to

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1 uncover who belong -- within the JNA, who belongs to the hospital staff

2 and who belongs to the Croatian National Guard Corps, that you started

3 telling the JNA members who these people were?

4 A. That is not true at all. I had nothing to disclose. I uncovered

5 nothing. All this is incorrect and that I withheld medical assistance to

6 anybody. I gave medical assistance to everybody, and there is a lot of

7 proof to bear that out, both among the Serbs and the Croats.

8 Q. All right. Now, do you know about the evacuation -- and I think

9 it was called something like exchange, actually. It was no kind of

10 exchange when you had hundreds of buses from Vukovar going via Bijeljina

11 to Dvor and then towards Brcko and so on, to be turned over to the

12 Croatian authorities; soldiers, civilians, wounded persons, et cetera. Do

13 you know about this massive column organised by the army to turn these

14 people over to safety over there? Do you know anything about that?

15 A. At that time, I was in prison in Serbia, but I do know that at

16 that time, in the space of two days, from the hospital towards Sremska

17 Mitrovica, 174 wounded persons were transported, and that's what we did.

18 We started looking for the rest, because there were 260 unaccounted for,

19 that were missing. And we found 200 of them killed at Ovcara, of that

20 figure.

21 Q. So you never heard of the great large convoy which had to cross

22 over into Bosnia because of the shooting coming from the other side, to

23 stop in Vorovi [phoen] and then move on to Brcko so that these people

24 could be handed over to the Croatian authorities ultimately? An enormous

25 number of people. Do you know about this long convoy and its advance?

1 A. Of course I do. They were women, children, the wounded, some

2 hospital staff and some civilians. Most of the people of Vukovar, 5.666,

3 in fact, stayed in camps in Serbia. You say that you have nothing to do

4 with Vukovar. Well, in those camps in Serbia, people were beaten up and

5 destroyed to the tune of 5.666 persons. Do you know that?

6 Q. Mrs. Bosanac, I'd just like to focus on what you were saying

7 yesterday. You mentioned my name in one context and said you wanted to

8 ask Mr. Milosevic to release the people. This is the first time I heard

9 about that. Now, is it clear to you - and you were in a military prison,

10 you were under the competence of the military authorities - that all those

11 people were not either de jure or de facto under the competence of Serbian

12 organs but they came under the competence and authority of the organs of

13 the Yugoslav People's Army, just like you yourself did. The Yugoslav

14 People's Army is not an organ of Serbia but is an organ of Yugoslavia, and

15 not a single one of those prisoners of yours who were taken off to the

16 various collection centres came under the competence and authority of

17 Serbia and Serbian organs. Is that clear to you?

18 A. Mr. Milosevic, I don't know whether this is the time or the place

19 for us to remind ourselves of certain things, and those are that at that

20 time, the person who was the ideological motive force of everything was

21 you yourself and that you allowed the international community, on the

22 18th, as was agreed upon, to enter Vukovar, that you called up

23 Slijvancanin on the phone. Had you done that, there wouldn't have been

24 any persons killed. Enough people were killed by the shelling. That is a

25 war crime too. 1.300 people were killed by the shells that fell. But had

1 you allowed the international community to come from Belgrade and enter

2 Vukovar with Cyrus Vance -- we saw them enter the hospital and had they

3 stayed there, had they remained there, Ovcara would never have happened

4 and the camps would never have happened. But it was your objective for

5 the camps to happen and for Ovcara to happen in order to prove and show

6 that Vukovar, now half of Croatia, was Greater Serbia.

7 Q. All right. Fine, Mrs. Bosanac. I see that you have learnt your

8 lesson in history very well, but doesn't it seem to you that the

9 ideological leader of that crime and that awful war and those awful crimes

10 against Vukovar was the same consciousness and awareness which prevailed

11 in the 1940s of the last century and brought the whole of mankind before

12 an abyss?

13 JUDGE MAY: We're now going a long way from the indictment. We'll

14 get back to it. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. The ideological leaders of the conflict are those who were trying

17 to break up Yugoslavia, Mrs. Bosanac.

18 JUDGE MAY: No. This is a long way from the witness's evidence.

19 Now, unless you've got anything further to put, time will be running out.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. This other convoy, the one that you refer to just now, you said by

22 Sremska Mitrovica, 140 something, how many thousands were in this other

23 convoy?

24 A. People were expelled from Vukovar. 22.360 persons were expelled

25 from Vukovar.

1 Q. That means that those who were evacuated in the presence of the

2 European Monitors, the International Red Cross, in order to have aid given

3 to them, that they were expelled there and that the JNA was actually

4 expelling these people by sending them off to safe areas? Is that your

5 claim?

6 A. It carried out --

7 Q. Ethnic cleansing.

8 A. It was ethnic cleansing on your instructions. You should have

9 allowed the international community to come in. In October, when Vance

10 first came to Yugoslavia, to the then Yugoslavia, he should have been

11 allowed to go to Vukovar and then he should have frozen things where they

12 were, and then there would not have been any killings. At least, Vukovar

13 was half destroyed. However, your objective was to kill, to destroy, to

14 cleanse.

15 Q. Let's not go into all this senseless stuff, what whose objective

16 was. We're going to get to that when we move on to serious matters. Tell

17 me, how did you get this idea at all that the JNA had something to do with

18 Ovcara when the JNA got all these people out of there and sent them to a

19 safe area? Of course some were sent to prison if they were suspects of

20 criminal action, such as you were.

21 A. What you said now is not true, but as far as I'm concerned, the

22 Yugoslav army is responsible because Major Sljivancanin entered the

23 hospital on the 20th in the morning. He brought in officers of the

24 Military Academy, Medical Academy, doctors from there, and he said, "Dr.

25 Bosanac, you are no longer in charge. Now the hospital is under the

1 Military Medical Academy of the JNA." After that, the wounded persons

2 were taken to Ovcara and killed there.

3 So as far as I'm concerned, it is Major Sljivancanin and the

4 Military Medical Academy that are responsible for that crime. They

5 allowed the wounded to be executed at Ovcara. My father-in-law, an old

6 man, a sick man, he was executed there. He was killed by an exit/entry

7 wound in the head.

8 Q. Let's not go into all the details.

9 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are important details.

11 JUDGE MAY: One at a time.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Nobody is justifying the execution of people, regardless of

14 whether they are civilians or soldiers. It can even be a soldier, a

15 captured soldier. But a captured soldier is a prisoner of war and it is a

16 crime to commit -- to kill a person like that. I'm just trying to clarify

17 that this was not done by the JNA. And I'm trying to say that it's your

18 local conflicts there and the hatred that you fanned at the time when this

19 new leadership came to the helm of Croatia. But we're going to get to

20 that.

21 JUDGE MAY: You can answer that question. Again, the accused

22 asserts that it was not done by the JNA. From your knowledge, the JNA

23 were present at the hospital, is that what you say, and involved, having

24 entered the hospital, in the patients being taken out. Is that the

25 position?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On the 19th of November, 1991,

2 they entered the hospital.

3 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but just so that we can

4 clarify the position and shorten matters, but beyond that, of course, you

5 can't give evidence because you were in fact detained yourself.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But in the morning of the

7 20th, I was there at 7.00 a.m. when Major Sljivancanin said I was no

8 longer in charge of the hospital, it was the Military Medical Academy that

9 was in charge of the hospital from then on. That was on the 20th in the

10 morning at 7.00 a.m. At 10.00, the wounded were taken out and taken to

11 Ovcara.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. What? Are you trying to say that the Military Medical Academy

14 took the wounded out and killed them?

15 A. I don't know. The Military Medical Academy and Major Sljivancanin

16 took over the hospital. They are responsible. As to who killed them,

17 that is something that I cannot say because I was not there, however --

18 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We're not going to take the matter

19 much further with this argument. We've heard the witness's evidence and

20 as far as she can take it. It will be a matter for us to judge what

21 happened thereafter on the basis of any other evidence we hear.

22 We will adjourn now. It's a little before time, but --

23 Mr. Milosevic, you've got a quarter of an hour left. Twenty minutes.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, Mr. May, please.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We seem to have lost quite a lot of

2 time over the explanations, or your explanations as to procedural matters,

3 and so I think that it would be in order if you were to extend the time I

4 have allotted.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, in any event, I was mistaken. You've

6 got rather longer even on our own interpretation. I said you can have two

7 hours in all. You've had nearly an hour and a half. So you've got half

8 an hour.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, before I continue, let me

13 clarify something. I had the impression that you were not wearing your

14 headset when I put the question of the extension of time in connection

15 with the time lost because of procedural clarifications. You said half an

16 hour, but that's in accordance with what you said yesterday. However, now

17 there are a number of procedural explanations which have taken up time, so

18 could you extend this time of half an hour for this time?

19 JUDGE MAY: Let us see how we get on and we'll have that in mind.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll try to expedite

21 matters.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mrs. Bosanac, you were not present in Vukovar when the civilian

24 authorities took over control of Vukovar and the surrounding area; is that

25 correct?

1 A. I don't know what civilian authorities you're referring to.

2 Q. The civilian authorities established there then.

3 A. When? Can you tell me the date?

4 Q. After the fall of Vukovar. I don't know the exact date, but the

5 civilian authorities then took control of Vukovar.

6 A. On the 20th of November, 1991, I was taken to prison in Sremska

7 Mitrovica.

8 Q. Well, that's just what I'm getting at. So you weren't there when

9 the civilian authorities took over Vukovar.

10 Very well. Is it correct that, after you were appointed head of

11 the hospital, you established a war staff, a Crisis Staff where you and

12 Njavro and several other people were members?

13 A. It's correct that when I was appointed head of the hospital I

14 accepted this post if the people who had previously carried out important

15 duties would help me. This was in accordance with instructions received

16 from the Ministry of Health. And in this Crisis Staff, there was

17 Dr. Mladen Ivankovic, Dr. Djordje Kuzmanovic, Dr. Leopold Kerek,

18 Mr. Njegovan Krstic. That was the Crisis Staff I set up, and the head

19 nurse.

20 Q. I have the decision here on the setting up of the Crisis Staff,

21 and it says Dr. Vesna Bosanac, Leopold Kerek, Mladen Ivankovic, Njegovan

22 Krstic, Lipovcevic Danijel, Amalija Salaj, Miroslav Lipovcevic, Jozefina

23 Ceric, Dr. Ivica Matus, and Dr. Tomo Prgic. As we can see, there was one

24 Serb in the Crisis Staff, Mladen Ivankovic.

25 A. That's not true. There was more than one Serb. If you want to

1 count, we can take the names one by one. I'll tell you what I know.

2 Q. That's what I'm asking you, because as far as I know, you

3 dismissed most of the Serbs that held important posts.

4 A. That's not correct. No Serbs were removed from their posts.

5 Q. Well, the director of the hospital was replaced and you were

6 appointed in his stead.

7 A. Dr. Popovic resigned of his own free will, and I was elected by

8 the workers' council.

9 Q. So you are saying that Dr. Popovic resigned of his own free will

10 and that you were elected by the workers' council?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I have the original document here, and I ask that it be looked

13 after properly, because it is truly an original and not a photocopy. It's

14 addressed to the medical centre from the president of the workers' council

15 in Vukovar, asking Dr. Rade Popovic to be relieved of his duty. And it's

16 signed by the minister, Professor Dr. Andrija Hebrang, the Minister of

17 Health of Croatia, and the Municipal Assembly of Vukovar is to be informed

18 of this. Would you look at this. This is not a resignation. It's a

19 demand that he be relieved of his duty by the Minister of Health. You can

20 look at this document --

21 A. I can look at it, but I have never seen it before in my whole

22 life. As you yourself say, this document was forwarded to the Municipal

23 Assembly. I heard about it but I've never seen it. Regardless of this,

24 Dr. Popovic did resign. If you wish, you can call him as a witness and he

25 will tell you.

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1 Q. Is this an original document?

2 A. I can't say, because I'm looking at it for the first time.

3 Q. Does it say, "Request for relieving the head of the hospital of

4 his duty"?

5 A. Well, that's what it says, but it's addressed to the president of

6 the workers' council, and I reiterate that I have never seen this document

7 before now. It was probably addressed to Dr. Stanimirovic.

8 Q. Very well.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Do you want that exhibited?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's an original document, Mr. May,

11 and as for what Mr. Nice said that an exception was made, let me remind

12 you that when a protected witness from Western Slavonia, a functionary

13 from Western Slavonia was interrogated here, you admitted notes from

14 police stations because the standpoint taken was that these were issued by

15 state authorities. Now we are dealing not with police stations but with

16 court records, and you rejected them as exhibits.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We've dealt with that. We'll exhibit this

18 document. Give it the next number, please.

19 Yes. The registrar reminds me we've get the Resolutions

20 outstanding. This document obviously must be translated before it's

21 finally admitted but we'll give it the next exhibit number after the

22 Resolutions. Yes.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Is it correct that, in a letter of the 13th of October, 1991,

25 according to my information, you personally wrote a letter to Granic, the

1 Deputy Prime Minister, and you say if any vehicle, including an ambulance,

2 leaves the barracks, you will consider it an aggression on the defence

3 line, and every vehicle on every barrack will be destroyed. Is this

4 correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Well, as it's not correct --

7 A. I have no idea what you're talking about.

8 Q. Well, as you don't know what I'm talking about, Mrs. Bosanac, here

9 is a document written in your own handwriting, addressed to Mr. Granic,

10 the Deputy Prime Minister, about the expected evacuation, and you are

11 saying what is in the barracks of the JNA, full of reservists and

12 Chetniks, and in case a single vehicle, including an ambulance, leaves the

13 barracks, we will consider it an aggression against the front line and

14 every vehicle and the barracks will be destroyed.

15 The head of the medical centre Vukovar, Vesna Bosanac. It's your

16 own handwriting. It's a letter written in your own hand. Will you look

17 at it.

18 A. This may refer to the circumstances surrounding the organisation

19 of the convoy of Medecins sans Frontieres who were come to the Vukovar

20 Hospital on the 12th of October --

21 JUDGE MAY: Before going any further, the witness should see the

22 letter.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You say: "If any vehicle, including an ambulance, leaves the

25 barracks, we will consider it an aggression against the front line and

1 every vehicle and the barracks will be destroyed." You, as the head of

2 the hospital, wrote this to the Deputy Prime Minister. Is this your

3 letter?

4 A. This is not my letter, and it is not my handwriting. I'm seeing

5 this for the first time now. I don't know who wrote this.

6 As you can see from my earlier letters, this is not my handwriting

7 at all nor is this my signature.

8 Q. This can be checked, because it does say, "Vesna Bosanac, head --"

9 A. Yes, that's what it says, but anybody could have written this

10 letter. On this paper, I see it says Borovo. I never used this kind of

11 letterhead. And I don't know who wrote this.

12 Q. Very well.

13 JUDGE MAY: Let us have a look at it.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Well, when you wrote official letters, you typed them out or,

16 rather, you wrote it in capital letters?

17 A. No, I don't write in capital letters.

18 Q. This can be easily checked.

19 A. Of course. It's not my handwriting, and I didn't write it. I

20 don't know who could have written this.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MAY: What we have in mind for this document is to mark it

23 for identification, not to admit it at the moment since the witness denies

24 writing it. The Prosecution can, of course, see it.

25 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. An immediate point before I sit

1 down is would the accused perhaps provide the best original he has. He

2 may have the original. We know he's got one other original.

3 JUDGE MAY: We'll mark it for identification. If you've got the

4 original, Mr. Milosevic - you hear the point Mr. Nice makes - we'll have

5 that.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. When you were questioned on the 9th of December --

8 MR. NICE: I'm sorry to interrupt, but not for the first time,

9 when procedural matters are raised that it appears not to suit the

10 accused's convenience to answer, he declines to answer them. Now, he is

11 engaging in this trial, whether he likes to admit it or not, and if the

12 Bench asks him if he has an original, I would respectfully invite the

13 Court to require him to answer. Because where a document is raised that

14 may be a forgery, it is vitally important that the relevant parties -

15 which is the Court and the Prosecution - have the earliest access to that

16 document.

17 JUDGE MAY: Since the question was put on the basis if he had the

18 original he was to produce it, I thought his answer was plain. But, Mr.

19 Milosevic, let's make sure of this. Do you have the original of this

20 document?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have given you what I have, and I

22 will check whether the original is available to my associates.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have given you what I have

25 received.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. On the 9th of December, 1991, you were questioned and explained in

3 the presence of counsel that you contacted Mile Dedakovic Jastreb, and you

4 mentioned him awhile ago. You said that he put sentries around the

5 hospital. Is this correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Do you know of the crimes that Dedakovic perpetrated throughout

8 the long period of time over the Serbian population and Serbian civilians

9 in Vukovar? I'm referring to Mile Dedakovic Jastreb.

10 A. I don't know of any crimes perpetrated by Mile Dedakovic.

11 Q. Very well. Did you have information about the number of Serbs in

12 collection centres? Let me mention only the one led by Marin Sabljic, who

13 himself confessed to the most serious crimes that he perpetrated in

14 Vukovar. Do you know anything about this?

15 A. I have no knowledge of any collection centres. As I have said,

16 there were civilian shelters where all people took refuge. There were

17 sick people, elderly people of all ethnic backgrounds. I don't know of

18 any collection centres in Vukovar. I don't know what you mean by

19 "collection centre."

20 Q. I have here a handwritten statement, a statement made by Martin

21 Sabljic, born in 1939, and so on and so forth, in connection with the

22 truth about the events in the Komerc, Novo Obucarna Kombinat, Borovo

23 shelter. And he talks about the military police or, rather, the National

24 Guard Corps giving him the task of commanding the civilian shelter. He

25 says that the number of people in the shelter constantly increased.

1 A. I don't know why you're putting this to me. I know nothing about

2 this. I knew Martin Sabljic. He was killed in a traffic accident. I

3 don't know exactly when. I did know him. I know that he was in the camp

4 and that he made many statements under duress, but I don't know what he

5 said, and I have no idea. I know nothing about it.

6 Q. He says that the number of people there grew day by day, that

7 records were kept by a girl whose last name was Levantic, he didn't know

8 her first name, and she gave the information to Lavoslav Bosanac. That's

9 your husband, isn't it?

10 A. Lavoslav Bosanac is my husband.

11 Q. And he goes on to explain that the policeman who asked him whether

12 he was the commander of the shelter asked for the logbook recording the

13 citizens who were there, put his pistol on the table, banged his fist on

14 the table, and said, "In two minutes, I'm giving you two minutes to bring

15 me some young males. I don't care who I kill, and you're not going to

16 hide the people in here," and then he speaks of killing.

17 A. I don't know why you're putting this to me. I know nothing about

18 this.

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, there's no point putting this to the

20 witness unless she knows something about it. She knows nothing about this

21 shelter. She said so.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, she knows because he says that

23 this information was passed on to her husband. So I assume she knew

24 something about it. Do you wish to admit this statement or not?

25 JUDGE MAY: No.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume you don't. Very well.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Very well. I can't find it here, but do you know that your

4 husband received money from these members of the National Guard Corps for

5 these activities?

6 A. No. That is absolutely untrue. I'm certain he didn't receive any

7 money.

8 Q. Let me just see.

9 JUDGE KWON: Dr. Bosanac, while Mr. Milosevic is looking for his

10 questions, was your husband also called as Lav?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lav, yes.

12 JUDGE KWON: Where did he work at the time?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a civil engineer, and he was

14 employed in the Borovo factory. During the war, they were also working as

15 much as they could. They repaired what had been destroyed. For example,

16 the bakery, which had been hit by a shell and was set fire to, they

17 repaired that for them to be able to bake bread. And then they had this

18 civil engineering unit which was operational to ensure electricity

19 supplies and water supplies for the hospital and for the civilian

20 shelters. And it's true that his office was in the Komerc shelter where

21 there was a large hall, well supplied with electricity and water, and

22 there were almost a thousand people there.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have here the original --

24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. In Borovo Naselje --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

1 JUDGE KWON: -- was there a time when Major Sljivancanin had asked

2 you to write a letter to your husband?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Major Sljivancanin came to the

4 hospital, I warned him and said that there was a reserve hospital there

5 and that the injured should be evacuated there. But this took place in

6 quite a different way. The Novi Sad Corps had taken control of it, and

7 this large building of Borovokomerc - and you can see a photograph of it

8 in my book - on the 19th it was occupied, taken over by tanks. The tanks

9 targeted it until it was completely destroyed, until it lay in ruins, and

10 then they used incendiary bombs which they threw into the shelter and so

11 that the patients and the wounded and the staff who were there were almost

12 -- almost suffocated.

13 Any husband left with -- waving a white flag. He asked them to

14 stop killing people, and they kept up this tank attack for six hours,

15 until they had completely destroyed the building.

16 JUDGE KWON: My question was whether Major Sljivancanin asked you

17 to write a letter to your husband. You can say yes or no.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. As you claim that your husband did not receive money from the

22 Croatian National Guard Corps, I have a payout slip here, the original one

23 from the payout slip block, and it was seized by them. I will supply you

24 with the original and keep a copy for myself. And it says 1 million

25 100 thousand to be paid out to Lav Bosanac, and the signature of your

1 husband on the 16th of October, 1991, that he received the money.. You can

2 take a look at that payout slip and tell us whether this is indeed the

3 signature of your husband, because you said a moment ago that he never

4 received any money whatsoever.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer that question? May I

6 answer Mr. Milosevic, Your Honour?

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, you can. Have a look at the -- have a look at

8 the document you're being shown and you can answer it.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On this document it, says payout

10 slip number 31/91, 1.110.000 dinars, Bosanac Lavoslav, payment for Borovo,

11 in Vukovar on the 16th of October, 1991.

12 In this way, the social accounting service of the day or, rather,

13 the bank paid out sums of money to all the employees of the Borovo

14 factory, and my husband was the superior to the civil engineers and the

15 civilian logistics group, and I can only assume -- and this is the

16 signature of my husband. I can only assume that this was a sum of money

17 paid for their salaries. It was paid to his civil engineering group, and

18 it says down here: "For payments for Borovo."

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to have that tendered into

20 evidence, because this has not been challenged. This is a payout slip.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is a payout slip.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The payout slip has been signed and

23 the witness has confirmed that it is her husband's handwriting.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you'd have to ask him, but the

25 signature is similar to my husband's signature, yes.

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1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It will bear the next number.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You spoke about Count Elc castle. Do you know that that cultural

4 and historical movement was used as the ZNG storage house and that it was

5 a vantage point from which they opened fire at the JNA?

6 A. What I know about the museum, about Count Elc museum is the

7 following: That in mid-August, 1991, part of the castle was completely

8 destroyed, and the people who were there, who worked there, were hit by

9 the shells. One of my fellow doctors, Sinisa Telarevic went to intervene

10 but he was hit by a shell. Actually, the ambulance he was in was hit by a

11 shell. The palace museum was destroyed, like Vukovar itself.

12 Q. All right. I have an addition to Vesna Bosanac's statement, once

13 again written in your own handwriting. During the war between the 8th and

14 the 11th, you speak about the bullets and you say: "The guards I think

15 had a warehouse of their own and some premises there. I established that

16 in August when I was in -- when I asked the chief staff of the Croatian

17 medical corps, army medical corps, that's when they informed me of that.

18 And then after helping out with medical supplies, I was allegedly sent two

19 truckloads, whereas nothing actually arrived."

20 And then you have a picture here, or diagram, showing what it

21 looked like, what was to be found in the gardens, palace gardens, the TO,

22 the municipality, et cetera; the rifles, the scaffolding where the guards

23 were. So these were all diagrams and sketches that you drew?

24 A. I don't know what you're talking about.

25 Q. Well, I'll let you have a look in just a moment.

1 A. Go on, then. Let me see.

2 Q. And then you go on to speak about the secondary school and say

3 that there was a ZNG base in the secondary school itself.

4 A. And what is your question in this respect?

5 Q. With respect to Count Elc palace and the hospital itself.

6 A. And you mentioned a secondary school. What do you want to know

7 about that?

8 Q. Did they have a base both in Count Elc palace, which was a

9 cultural monument in itself, and in the secondary school building which

10 was a health institution?

11 A. Are you referring to the secondary school?

12 Q. I don't know anything about that.

13 A. During the war I was neither in the palace or in the gymnasium,

14 the secondary school building. But let me mention that when you say

15 secondary school, it wasn't a health institution.

16 Q. I meant educational institution.

17 A. All right. Fine.

18 Q. You say that you heard that the ZNG had its warehouse in the

19 gymnasium, in the secondary school building.

20 A. That's what I said, but I didn't actually see it.

21 Q. Right. You didn't see it. Fine.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, in due course the witness should see

23 what it is you are quoting from, and then we will have the statement

24 exhibited.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is an addition to the statement.

1 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Now, tell us, please, is that the addition you yourself made, and

4 is it written in your own handwriting by you yourself? And the sketches

5 too, where the Croatian National Guard Corps had its base and so on.

6 A. Yes. This is an addition to my statement. And like the previous

7 statement, I wrote it out while I was in custody in Sremska Mitrovica

8 under the conditions that prevailed there, under duress. This is my

9 handwriting, and I did indeed write this.

10 Q. Did you make the sketches too?

11 A. Just a moment. Let me have a look. I'm not quite sure. Yes,

12 these are my sketches. Let me just take a look at them, what else you've

13 attached here. Yes. That is the addition to my statement that I wrote

14 out while I was in custody in Sremska Mitrovica.

15 Q. So I don't suppose you're challenging that the guard had its base

16 in Elc palace and in the secondary school building.

17 A. I said I didn't know. I heard about it but I didn't actually see

18 for myself.

19 Q. Well, I think that you wrote down these facts here, which means

20 that both secondary school and the palace were turned into military

21 targets, just like your hospital from which there was shooting.

22 A. That's not true, Mr. Milosevic. Don't say that. That's not true.

23 I wrote here that I had heard there were guards there, but that has

24 nothing to do with the hospital, and there is no justification in the eyes

25 of the world and before the public that the hospital was destroyed by

1 shells on a daily basis, and there's no justification for that having been

2 so. I don't see that you can't understand that. You don't want to

3 understand it, but that's your problem.

4 Q. All I wish to establish is whether it was a military target or

5 not.

6 A. The hospital was not a military target in any way. It displayed

7 the Red Cross emblem at two points. People were treated there of all

8 ethnicities, and we treated them as best we could. And we couldn't do any

9 better because you yourself organised the blockade of Vukovar, and you

10 targeted the hospital with shells every day.

11 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. Dr. Bosanac, if you

12 would mind not personalising this for the moment.

13 Mr. Milosevic, we've decided that you will have 40 minutes in all

14 in this session, which means you've got another ten minutes left.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then I'll have to skip a great

16 many questions.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. In that statement of yours, did you write in your very own hand

19 that you heard about corpses that were floating on the Danube River and

20 that you will not eat fish from the Danube for a long, long time?

21 A. Probably. I can't remember exactly what I said because it's a

22 16-page statement. That's what it says there, but that's what I heard.

23 Q. I put a question to you about the killing of patients from your

24 hospital, inter alia those who were thrown into the Danube after that.

25 A. I don't know anything about that. And that is not correct that

1 patients from my hospital were being killed. No one was killed from my

2 hospital, and no one was thrown into the Danube.

3 Q. Not killed in the hospital itself, but they were killed out of

4 that hospital. I gave you a few examples.

5 A. I'm telling you once again that I have no knowledge of this

6 whatsoever.

7 Q. And do you know that there were ramps from launching pads for

8 rockets that were fired against the JNA?

9 A. No, I don't believe that, because I would have seen that or heard

10 about that. There were no launching pads as far as I know. I didn't see

11 any.

12 Q. And what about the chapel of the castle? Was that the centre for

13 killing Serbs after interrogation?

14 A. No, it was not.

15 Q. And do you know that everywhere around the castle there were

16 mortars and machine-gun nests from which --

17 A. No. I pass by often, and I never saw anyone shooting from there

18 ever.

19 Q. Do you know that at the castle chapel people were electrocuted and

20 then thrown into the Danube?

21 A. No. No. The chapel of Elc castle, I know where it was, and right

22 next to it a grave was dug, and that is where we buried people who were

23 killed by shells, and I drew that in these sketches of mine. And nobody

24 killed anyone over there. There was no electricity, to begin with, and

25 nobody killed anyone.

1 Q. Even your Marin Vidic says in his statement that civilians were

2 taken to the Danube, killed there, and then thrown into the Danube.

3 A. What Marin Vidic says is something I don't know. I just know that

4 he was in the camp himself and that he was also tortured and perhaps he

5 gave statements under duress. I personally do not know what he stated.

6 Q. All right. But you wrote in your own statement, and that is what

7 you read here, that you were not under torture. On the contrary, that you

8 were treated very humanely, attentively --

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we've already been over that. You've

10 drawn that to our attention.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, she said that he was also

12 under torture. I mean, as if she had been under torture.

13 JUDGE MAY: She didn't. The two cases are quite different. Now,

14 let's move on.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Is it correct that when talking to the monitors of the ECMM when

17 you were arrested, you said that the JNA carried out the evacuation in a

18 correct manner and that the representatives of Croatia did not have any

19 objections whatsoever, and you made no comments with regard to that? Is

20 that right or is that not right?

21 A. I could not have stated that when I was arrested. I did not know

22 what the evacuation looked like at all at the time. I know about it now.

23 I heard about it later. But when I was arrested, I did not have any idea

24 as to how the evacuation took place.

25 Q. You say that you asked the International Red Cross to be present

1 during evacuation; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Did you want, under the protection of the Red Cross, to actually

4 evade responsibility for the crimes you had committed?

5 A. This question is really an exaggeration. I did not commit any

6 crimes, and there is nothing that I should evade.

7 Q. Why were you then called "Mengele"?

8 A. Then you have to ask your very own journalists who, on your

9 instructions, said all this nonsense. This is total nonsense, as a matter

10 of fact.

11 Q. Is it true that you entered the names of about 150 guardsmen in

12 the lists of persons who were to be evacuated from the hospital, those who

13 committed crimes in Vukovar?

14 A. That's not true. The list of evacuation includes the names and

15 surnames of wounded and sick persons with accompanying diagnoses.

16 Q. Is it correct that Colonel Mrksic sent you food and water on the

17 19th of November?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. You said that in Vukovar 1.100 persons were killed, in your

20 auxiliary statements attached to your statement. But in your statement

21 before the court in Belgrade, you said that 520 dead persons were brought

22 to the hospital out of which 158 belonged to the ZNG and 60 to the MUP,

23 eight children, and the rest were civilians, however, you did not know how

24 each and every person lost their lives; is that right?

25 A. That was at one point in time. I don't know exactly which date it

1 was. And I know how people lost their lives. They were all killed by

2 shells and bombs of the Yugoslav People's Army.

3 Q. This is your additional statement, and what I quoted a minute ago

4 is in there where you say 520 persons, out of which 158 were members of

5 the ZNG and so on and so forth.

6 A. 520 civilians. That was the total of people who were killed by

7 shells of the JNA. 1.150, as far as I know. Four hundred persons are

8 still missing. We don't know how and where they were killed.

9 Q. That is exactly what you say. So you cannot claim that they were

10 killed with shells, and now you say that you don't know how they lost

11 their lives.

12 A. They were killed by shells and bombs. They were killed by shells

13 and bombs, those who were brought to hospital. It was quite obvious.

14 There is accompanying documentation but you and Belgrade have this

15 documentation. It would be a good thing, for the sake of justice, to have

16 this documentation handed over here to this Tribunal.

17 Q. Did you compile a list of persons from the ZNG who were killed?

18 A. The official list of persons killed from the National Guards Corps

19 and from the police was compiled by Branko Lukenda and Tomislav Hegedus.

20 They are considered to be missing until the present day, and they were

21 arrested on the evening of the 19th by the Yugoslav People's Army.

22 I kept records in a little book so that I would have information

23 if somebody asked me about the number of persons who were dead. But this

24 was not official. Officially, it was compiled by these representatives of

25 the police.

1 Q. This is a list from your medical centre and it says here, "Killed

2 from the 25th of August onwards, active force of the National Guards

3 Corps." I don't know why one name is circled and others are not. And

4 then the MUP, the medical centre Vukovar, the list of persons killed in

5 this fighting. So you can take this as well as the additional statement

6 so that we don't waste any time.

7 A. This is probably the list that I sent along with the appeals that

8 I included in the book on a specific date.

9 Q. This is the original.

10 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness see the list.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. It's not very tidy.

13 A. Yes. This is the list that was compiled by my secretary. However

14 -- yes, this is what it says here. "Killed persons from the 25th of

15 August." But I don't see up to what date, because unfortunately, these

16 lists grew longer and longer.

17 Q. On page 5 of your statement, you say that the Municipal Staff

18 decided not to bury the dead at the old cemetery. Who passed that

19 decision and why?

20 A. At the old cemetery, which is very close to the barracks of the

21 Yugoslav People's Army, the dead were buried already in the month of

22 September. But so many shells were falling on that cemetery that burials

23 became risky for the persons who were actually doing the burying.

24 Therefore, the municipal Crisis Staff passed a decision to stop burials at

25 that cemetery.

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1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, your time is now up, but you can ask

2 two more questions.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, unfortunately, I have

4 -- I have hundreds of other questions, Mr. May.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Two more.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Well, then let me go back to the statement. There are a few more

8 remaining pages of that big statement. You said that it was peaceful in

9 Vukovar, and in the statement, you say quite decidedly -- you talk about

10 mining shops, torching shops, those that were owned by Serbs, and you say,

11 "I, as many other citizens, were unpleasantly surprised when we found out

12 that every four to five days a Serb restaurant would be blown up," and you

13 talk about Vukovar, Borovo Naselje, about violent acts that were committed

14 then. Is that right or is that not right? Because you say that, before

15 these events took place, it was peaceful in Vukovar.

16 A. Yes, it was peaceful. After Borovo Selo, when 12 policemen were

17 killed, I heard that a Serb cafe was blown up or, rather, it was set on

18 fire, but we don't know how. But I don't know why you're asking me about

19 that. I have no information about that whatsoever.

20 Q. I'm asking you because you say that you heard that every four or

21 five days something was being blown up.

22 A. That's not correct. I cannot say that. But Mr. Milosevic, I

23 really don't know why you're asking me that.

24 Q. Because you wrote it down in your very own statement. So please

25 take the remaining three pages.

1 A. We can go on discussing my statement for another hundred days, but

2 that's not important. The important thing is that had you not brought in

3 Chetniks to Borovo Selo, we would have had peace. We had a

4 parliamentary --

5 JUDGE MAY: Doctor, I realise that you feel provoked, but please

6 just restrict your answers to the questions.

7 Now, your last question, Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I said to you that I had

9 hundreds of questions left, but now during the break I got excerpts -- now

10 during the break, I got excerpts --

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So now during the break, I got the excerpts that you referred to

14 from the books of anaesthesiology from your hospital from the end of

15 November, and it is quite clear that you did not carry out 750 surgeries

16 during that period, the way you had put it, as you have asserted, but only

17 187. Why did you give this false information?

18 JUDGE MAY: First of all, let the witness see the document. Just

19 a moment.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no idea what you're talking

21 about.

22 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the witness see the document which

23 you're relying on.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the last page

1 is the first one and the first one is the last one. I mean, it goes

2 backwards. And it starts from June and it ends at the end of November.

3 A. This is one of the protocols, as far as I can see now, although I

4 would have to have a closer look at it. This is one of the protocols that

5 come from the nurse at anaesthesiology. This is not a relevant document.

6 This is a protocol that gives a list of some persons only. The real

7 documentation says otherwise. There is a description of the operation

8 involved, there is a signature of the main surgeon and then of the

9 anaesthesiologist. This is just a very superficial record.

10 However, as for the complete medical records, I mean because

11 records were kept in five ways of patients at the Vukovar Hospital, all of

12 these records were taken away by the Yugoslav army. So it would be a good

13 thing, for humanitarian reasons, for you to return these records so that

14 people could evaluate their disabilities and so that people who survived

15 could be assisted, at least.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will admit that.

17 Mr. Tapuskovic.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just want to note, Mr. May, that

19 with regard to each and every question, I quoted the relevant documents of

20 the state institutions in charge. So I believe that all these documents

21 should be admitted into evidence.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Bosanac -- Dr. Bosanac, first of all, I

1 would like to put the following question to you: When you were exchanged

2 in the month of December, at that time, was that exchange carried out

3 disregarding the fact of who was suspected of having done what? Was the

4 exchange of persons conducted complete then? A number Croats were

5 exchanged for a number Serbs, those who were taken prisoner in Croatia and

6 those who were in Serbia; is that right?

7 A. I don't know exactly how this exchange was agreed upon. What I

8 know personally was that I was subjected to interrogation - just let me

9 finish - and that at the military investigative prison, I was awaiting to

10 see whether charges would be lifted against me.

11 Q. That is clear, but can you say, when you were exchanged, how many

12 people who had been detained in Serbia were exchanged for people who had

13 been in prisons in Croatia? Can you tell me that?

14 A. I can't tell you precisely. I know there were 45 of us, that

15 these were medical personnel and priests. And on the other side there was

16 some spies from Belgrade. But as for details, you have to ask other

17 people that.

18 Q. There's something else I would like to ask you. Yesterday you

19 spoke about what you had heard that people experienced, and you heard the

20 signals they gave when what was happening was happening to them. What I

21 want to know is, of the people you were imprisoned with in Serbia, did any

22 of them lose their life?

23 A. Well, not among the people who were exchanged, but I do know of

24 people who lost their lives in camp. These, of course, were not

25 exchanged.

1 Q. Can you give us the first and last name of someone who was in

2 prison in Serbia and who lost their life?

3 A. I would have to think about this. I can't remember exactly, but

4 in the Stajicevo camp there was a man who was alive, and there he

5 succumbed to the beatings, and I think that Dr. Djuranec was in that camp.

6 I didn't see this personally, but I know it happened, although I don't

7 remember the man's name now.

8 Of the people who were exchanged with me, they had also been

9 beaten and humiliated, but as to the details, you have to ask each of

10 them.

11 Q. But they were all handed over alive to the Croatian authorities,

12 those who were with you?

13 A. We were taken by plane, and there was a gentleman, I think his

14 name was Aco Vasiljevic, who escorted the two planes from which we arrived

15 from Belgrade to Zagreb.

16 Q. That was my first point. My second point concerns Mrksic.

17 Yesterday, you explained something that was connected to him. Was there

18 any misunderstanding between you and him at the time you were negotiating

19 the way the evacuation was to be conducted?

20 A. To begin with, there were misunderstandings, because I expected

21 him to have the same evacuation route in front of him that I had, Vukovar,

22 Lusac, Marinci, Bogdanovci, Nustar, Vinkovci, where buses were waiting and

23 ambulances, but he said this was impossible, that we had go either by way

24 of Mitrovica or Adasevac.

25 Q. Did he say on that occasion --

1 A. He said that the way I was proposing couldn't be suggested because

2 it was mined.

3 Q. So it was mined?

4 A. Well, I heard from him that this was a military base towards

5 Nustar, but I was proposing the plan agreed on with the International Red

6 Cross. And on that Tuesday in the afternoon, he promised me that this

7 would happen, and on the next day, Wednesday, the evacuation would take

8 place and that that would be the route taken. That was my last

9 conversation with him.

10 Q. In any case, an agreement was reached?

11 A. It was but it was not complied with.

12 Q. I would like to put a question to you with respect to

13 Sljivancanin. When you saw him for the first time, is it correct that he

14 and another foreign humanitarian person brought in a quantity of

15 medicines?

16 A. Yes. There was a Nikolas, who was a representative of the

17 International Red Cross, a doctor, and an interpreter arrived, and they

18 brought a truckload of aid, but in fact it was already too late.

19 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you were shown a map of Vukovar, and to a

20 question put by the Prosecutor, Mr. Nice, you responded by saying that the

21 area under siege was 10 by 3 kilometres.

22 A. Well, approximately. I didn't measure it myself. But I can show

23 it again on the map.

24 Q. I have the map here. Within that area, was there a JNA barracks?

25 A. No. The barracks was also part of the occupation, from Borovo

1 Selo as far as Mitnica, the present-day cemetery.

2 Q. No, no.

3 A. That's 10 kilometres long and 3 kilometres wide.

4 Q. I'm talking about the area surrounded by the JNA.

5 A. Well, the JNA used the barracks as the first point of occupation.

6 Anything beyond the barracks, that was us. But where the barracks were,

7 all the people had ended up in camps by then. As they took a street, they

8 put the people in camps. We arrived when Vukovar had fallen. Some people

9 had been in camps for two months already, who had been arrested in

10 September.

11 Q. Dr. Bosanac, I don't understand your answer. Let me ask you

12 directly: Were any barracks on the territory of Vukovar surrounded by

13 units of the Croatian army?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were there any casualties among the soldiers in the barracks?

16 A. You mean the JNA soldiers?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. I don't know. As far as I know, not, there weren't. I was never

19 in the barracks until I was taken prisoner.

20 Q. Did everything start precisely because the JNA barracks were

21 surrounded?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. Thank you. Now I wish to put a few more questions to you in

24 connection with the statement or, rather, your testimony in the previous

25 case.

1 You said awhile ago that in your hospital there was a Crisis

2 Staff.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. However, in the transcript from your previous testimony, that's

5 page 425, line 3, you said the following: "During the aggression on

6 Vukovar, during those three months of blockade, there was a crisis defence

7 staff in the basement of the municipal building. Marin Vidic was the

8 president. There were also others who were in charge of certain things."

9 Is this correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it also correct that you took part in the functioning of the

12 Crisis Staff of the defence of Vukovar?

13 A. Yes, on occasion, when I was invited to come and talk about

14 supplies for the hospital. But I wasn't there all the time. The Crisis

15 Staff had frequent sessions, probably, but I was only invited there twice.

16 There was another doctor, Dr. Mato Sivic, who was a permanent member of

17 the Crisis Staff. It wasn't me.

18 Q. Who was the commander of the defence of Vukovar?

19 A. You mean in military terms?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Well, the military commander was Mile Dedakovic in the beginning,

22 and later on, Branko Borkovic.

23 Q. And then --

24 A. Marin Vidic was a civilian commissioner of the government and

25 Dokmanovic did not show up at work any more.

1 Q. Very well, then. On page 400, line 14 -- just a minute -- you

2 said the following: "The area around the hospital was in fact under the

3 control of the Croatian police and the defence of the town, but in the

4 course of that Sunday or week..." Are you referring to the last Sunday of

5 the siege?

6 A. I don't know, you're just giving me a sentence. What kind of

7 statement was this? Is this testimony before this Tribunal or a statement

8 I made in prison?

9 Q. It's your testimony. You say: "The area around the hospital

10 actually was under the control of the Croatian police and the defence of

11 the city, but throughout that week, we had noticed that the number of

12 troops was declining. They were going to the front so that, in effect,

13 the centre of the town was left without any military defences."

14 A. Yes. That was the last week before the occupation when simply

15 there was no longer any --

16 Q. Can you say -- can you say --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. -- how many Croatian soldiers there were in the town?

20 A. I can't say because I never knew this. I can only tell you where

21 the main points were from where they brought in the wounded, and that's

22 where I communicated with them.

23 Q. Well, you noticed something.

24 A. Yes. We noticed that there were fewer and fewer of them. They

25 went to try to break through, but I don't know who was where or who went

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1 where. You have to ask others that.

2 Q. Well, you said they went to the front line. Can you tell us where

3 front line was?

4 A. The front line was the occupation line from Mitnica, vinarija --

5 the winery, the barracks, then the wooden market and the hunting lodge.

6 As far as Lusac I can tell you. Well, I know where the front line was,

7 that's where they brought the wounded from. But how many soldiers there

8 were and how many left, I don't know.

9 Q. Does this mean that the entire area of 10 kilometres by 3 was the

10 front line?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Protecting the town.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let me ask you one more thing: On page 408, line 9, you said in

15 the Dokmanovic case: "They exerted pressure on me to tell them where the

16 Croatian soldiers were. I simply didn't know who had gone, how or where."

17 That's what you said.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And in your statement that you gave to the investigators of the

20 Tribunal, that is to the OTP, you spoke of the breakthrough carried out on

21 the 17th of November. What did you mean by the word "breakthrough"?

22 A. I don't know about the 17th, but this means that two weeks before

23 Vukovar fell, people left Vukovar, and they called this "breakthrough."

24 "Breakthrough" meant breaking out of the encirclement.

25 Q. You said: "But the civilians were afraid to go back to their

1 shelter because the Croatian soldiers and defenders were no longer at the

2 front line --" or, rather, the defence line. And then you said that this

3 was the breakthrough operation in which your son Damir also managed to get

4 out of Vukovar.

5 A. Yes. That was on the 17th.

6 Q. If you can only answer the following question, please: Did you

7 receive instructions from the Croatian government not to give any sort of

8 information about whether there were military units or weapons there, or

9 not?

10 A. No. I never received any instructions of any kind from the

11 Croatian government.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, along with all the

13 statements that the Office of the Prosecutor has and the statement made to

14 the investigators, there is also a statement made on the 7th of March,

15 1993, to a high-ranking officer from Canada, Jim Carter, who was working

16 in the investigation team on behalf of the UN experts' team.

17 Q. Do you remember that you told him, in that statement of 1993, that

18 you had to keep secret or, rather, that you were not allowed to say that

19 there were any Croatian army or soldiers or any defence of Vukovar?

20 A. I don't remember that.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would have to tender this part

22 of the statement. It's a statement made in English and Serbian.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that statement at

24 all. Who is Tapuskovic?

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. I am Tapuskovic.

2 A. To whom did I make the statement?

3 Q. You gave it to the Canadian officer who was an investigator on

4 behalf of a team of experts of the UN.

5 A. When?

6 Q. On the 7th of March, 1993.

7 A. Where?

8 Q. I don't know.

9 A. May I have a look at this? I don't believe any of this. God

10 knows what sort of paper this is.

11 JUDGE MAY: We've got a great deal of paper in this case.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that all these papers should

13 have been shown to me before. I think this makes no sense.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. It's a brief statement.

16 A. Well, what does it matter when I've never seen it before?

17 Q. I have a sufficient number of copies.

18 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. One by one.

19 Now, what is this statement, Mr. Tapuskovic?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a statement made to

21 investigators of the United Nations, to a high-ranking Canadian officer,

22 in 1993. And this was recorded. There are also recordings of this. And

23 this was disclosed to us under Article 66 -- Rule 66 by the OTP. And I

24 wish to show only a short insert in which Dr. Bosanac said something.

25 JUDGE MAY: Show the witness just that part, just the relevant

1 part.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This is on page 58.

3 JUDGE MAY: You're going to be shown a statement. I hope it's in

4 a language you can understand. And you're just going to be asked a

5 question about it. Just have a look at it.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. This document is parallel text in English and BHS -- B/C/S.

8 A. I don't know what this is about. There is something about the

9 construction of the hospital.

10 Q. This has been crossed out. Would you look at the next page.

11 A. This here?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. The 7th of March, 1993. I can't identify this easily. This is

14 some sort of transcript I did when the commission headed by Mr. Mazowiecki

15 arrived, I did make some statements, but --

16 Q. You made this.

17 A. Well, what specifically are you interested in here?

18 Q. The bottom of page 58. What does it say?

19 A. It says here, "Doctor --"

20 Q. Just a moment. What are you talking about? In the middle, in

21 the middle.

22 A. "Major Sljivancanin told me --"

23 Q. You said you didn't know.

24 A. "-- I want to talk to you. And I was waiting to see what he

25 wanted to talk to me about. He asked me, Where are the members of the

1 Croatian army? I said I don't know. How come you don't know? I don't

2 know because -- I said I didn't know because I had received instructions

3 from --" What?

4 Q. "From the minister that there must be no Croatian soldiers." "I

5 received instructions from the minister that there must be no Croatian

6 soldiers."

7 A. No. No. This has been pulled out of context. I received

8 instructions from the minister about the evacuation, and the International

9 Red Cross said there must be no soldiers either of the Croatian army or

10 the JNA in the evacuation.

11 Q. You said there must be no Croatian soldiers.

12 A. In the hospital there must be either no Croatian soldiers and then

13 there will be no Yugoslav soldiers. This is the context in which this was

14 said, but I don't know what this is about. I think that this sort of

15 questioning with this kind of foisting of evidence during the

16 questioning --

17 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Bosanac, you need have no fear. There will be no

18 twisting of evidence here, but counsel is entitled to ask you about what

19 he regards as differences.

20 Now, have you finished, Mr. Tapuskovic?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Nice.

23 MR. NICE: I think before I re-examine, it might be prudent to

24 check on the state of exhibits, because they've been coming in at a fair

25 number and I'm going to refer to one of them or possibly two in

1 re-examination, and you'll need the numbers.

2 JUDGE MAY: The registrar will need some time to get them into

3 order, which seems reasonable. We'll do it after the break.

4 MR. NICE: Very well. Thank you. I want to do a short exercise

5 at a fairly early stage derived in part from an exhibit we've already

6 looked at, which is the witness's book, our Exhibit 380. There are two

7 things I want to ask the witness about that. If she could have the bound

8 volume of it.

9 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

10 Q. First of all, this is a bound volume. Is this a private

11 publication or is this a book that's on public sale, Doctor?

12 A. This is a book, a copy of my appeals, which is to be found in the

13 historical museum, and it was published by a publishing house, The

14 Association of Invalids, actually.

15 Q. Very well.

16 A. It's not to be found in book stores, but it was promoted at

17 promotion ceremonies, and of course, the sale of the book is free.

18 Q. The most grave allegations have been raised by this accused

19 against you. You're still working at the hospital?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. As we will discover, with some of the doctors and medical staff

22 referred to by the accused as people who have allegedly provided evidence

23 against you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you have publicly stated your position since what happened in

1 Vukovar included in this book.

2 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, it may be helpful if we look just at

3 a short passage of the preface of the book. And if the witness could have

4 the preface open in Croatian, and if a copy with the English preface could

5 go on the overhead projector.

6 Q. So against the range of allegations about the Croats generally and

7 you in particular, you published in the way described material that if we

8 pick up the preface from about six lines down, you set out how it was a

9 "Town of craftsmen and merchants and home for 300 families." Set out the

10 majority of the population were Croats, Germans and Hungarians. Next

11 sentence, "It would always be on the border of various nations." Next

12 sentence, "Its location and tradition were the cause of multi-ethnicity."

13 Next sentence: "However, they would never change the history and culture

14 of this city. In 1991, during the severe aggression against the town and

15 the people of the surrounding villages, 15.000 people remained in the town

16 in a complete blockade." And then- and I won't take the Court's time -

17 you set out the whole history as you understand it to be, and towards the

18 bottom of the page, you set out what happened to the hospital and how,

19 during the aggression, people in the hospital were treated.

20 So you have publicly and regularly set out your position. Is that

21 correct, Doctor?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You made one observation in relation to one of the challenged

24 documents that you didn't write in capital letters. I must ask you about

25 that and possibly correct you. First of all, there was a supplement to

1 your statement produced by the accused that was in capital letters, and

2 before we part from this book, at page -- sorry, I've now lost it -- it's

3 20 -- I'll find it. There are some capital letter entries in this book.

4 It's ERN number 2492. Thank you very much. At the top right-hand corner.

5 If you can find that. It's not very far in.

6 MR. NICE: If the usher would be good enough to find 2492.

7 Q. We will find at least one of your letters is in capital letters.

8 A. I did say that my handwriting was not the handwriting of the

9 letter concerned. So I never write in that particular way, and that's not

10 my handwriting. This, on the other hand, is my handwriting, yes. But

11 the --

12 Q. Very well --

13 A. -- letter that was shown to me by Mr. Milosevic, that is not my

14 handwriting.

15 Q. Very well. If this is your handwriting, I'll presume to mark a

16 copy, and I'll hand this copy, highlighted a copy. If you'd just look at

17 it very briefly for three characters, and then we'll look at a copy of the

18 challenged document. If we look at this, please -- could you place that

19 on the overhead projector. Could you please it on the overhead

20 projector, please, so that we can all see.

21 I've highlighted on this document the K's, the J's, and the Z's,

22 noting in particular that the Z's are not crossed. These are the K's and

23 J's, and Z's that you write, are they, Doctor, when you write in capital

24 letters?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Will you now look at this document.

2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I presume to have the document that was

3 marked for identification photocopied so the original is unaffected, but

4 for convenience it's been photocopied and I have highlighted again the

5 same characters on this document.

6 Q. If we look at this one and zoom in a little bit, we'll see, for

7 example, the J's, which are formed with two strokes, the Z's, which are

8 all crossed, and on this document the K's, which are formed in possibly

9 two ways but as we can see on the screen, one of those K's is formed by a

10 down stroke and then a single curved stroke to the right of it.

11 Are these letters, the J's, the Z's, and the K's, the way you

12 write in capital letters or not?

13 A. No. I didn't write this. I never write in this way. This was

14 written by some clerk, technician. It's a different style of writing

15 altogether.

16 Q. Do you know anything about this letter, why it was written, making

17 the propositions it does about, I think, the use of ambulances for

18 military? Do you know anything about this at all?

19 A. No. As I say, I see this for the first time here and now. Let me

20 read through it to see why it was written. But quite certainly, I did not

21 write this.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the --

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

24 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection. Despite the

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1 very lofty ideas Mr. Nice has about his professional capabilities, I don't

2 consider that he is a professional and therefore able to assess the

3 authenticity of this document. There are professionals and experts in

4 that field, and he's not one of them.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. We note that objection. No doubt

6 you can get some -- an expert to look at this.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we can do that. The same -- and I've only

8 dealt with three characters in the alphabet. The same comparison can also

9 be done with the document that has yet to be marked, which was the

10 supplement to the witness's statement which she acknowledged was hers and

11 that was produced in prison, which is also in capital writing. But again,

12 the distinction between these characters and those can be found.

13 And let me make it quite clear, now that we've looked at the

14 document, I have no objection to the exhibit which has been marked for

15 identification being produced as an exhibit, it being the Prosecution's

16 case, of course through the witness, that a forgery has been produced.

17 And I turn to other matters --

18 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Before the transcript disappears.

19 Doctor, you said that this may have been written by some clerk or

20 technician. What did you mean by that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no. I meant somebody who

22 actually is trying to practice writing in this way. It's the kind of

23 writing that skilled workers usually use. So it's -- I don't know how to

24 explain it to you. Not the type of writing that anyone in the medical

25 profession would use. Sort of semi-skilled, skilled person.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that somebody, for example,

3 an engineer would write in this way, or an architect. They tend to write

4 in this kind of way.

5 JUDGE KWON: Your secretary or assistant, did they not write the

6 letter in the name of yourself?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My secretary used a typewriter, but

12 I would always write -- sign it myself, sign the documents myself.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you're saying that the difference

14 between the two handwritings is evident, it's plain to see, even without

15 the benefit of expert --

16 MR. NICE: I am indeed.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

18 MR. NICE: And -- and -- but I don't rely on any opinion of my

19 own, contrary to what the accused is suggesting. I'm relying on the

20 evidence of the witness to whose attention I have drawn three particular

21 characters from the alphabet and on which she has expressed her own

22 opinion.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have myself participated in cases where that

24 kind of exercise is done without expert evidence, where the difference is

25 plain.

1 MR. NICE: I'm happy to see what I'm doing today accords with Your

2 Honour's experience. But we can't take any more time on it than that. I

3 move to another topic.

4 Q. The statement that's been shown to you, first of 112 pages and

5 then with some supplementary additions, you haven't seen it until today.

6 Did you ever make any attempts to get a copy of it or to see it before?

7 A. Well, later on, when I talked to these people from the

8 international commission for detainees, I said that I had given a

9 statement to that effect, and I endeavoured to obtain complete medical

10 documents via the Foreign Ministry and the Commission for Detainees and

11 Missing Persons. I received a very courteous letter saying that they

12 would do their best but that the opposite side said there was no

13 information of that kind. And as has been shown here, Mr. Milosevic did

14 bring in some information and facts and figures from medical documents, so

15 I should kindly like to ask the Trial Chamber to see that the complete

16 medical documents are available as evidence, because then they'll receive

17 the right presentation and picture of the events.

18 Q. When you --

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I'm just looking at the clock. Are you

20 going to be very much longer?

21 MR. NICE: I have several more questions. I won't be much longer

22 but I have several more questions and I ought to ask them, given the

23 gravity of the allegations.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we understand the witness has a flight to

3 catch, so we ought to get on as quickly as we can.

4 MR. NICE: I'll be as brief as I can.

5 Q. Doctor, these grave allegations against you and those with whom

6 you were working are made in the context of the letters that you wrote,

7 which are revealed in your book, seeking attention from the international

8 community who you wanted to help, and if necessary, to come to your

9 hospital. Is there any suggestion -- is there any truth in the suggestion

10 that you were acting in the way described, allowing people to be killed

11 and so on, when at the same time you were bringing or doing everything you

12 could to bring the international community to your assistance?

13 A. None of the allegations made here by Mr. Milosevic are true. I

14 did everything I could to help all people, and I prevailed upon the

15 international community to come and help us. And Vukovar was destroyed.

16 It was full of injured persons, poor people, sick people of all ethnic

17 groups. And had the international community arrived just one month

18 before, many lives would have been preserved, saved. But unfortunately,

19 it did not come.

20 Q. Yesterday, on video, we saw Sljivancanin refusing access to the

21 hospital to Cyrus Vance. Now, you gave an estimate of the date of that

22 encounter, but we will have other evidence that will give the date

23 absolutely accurately. Can you think of any valid reason, given the

24 allegations being made against you, can you think of any valid reason for

25 the JNA to be refusing Cyrus Vance the opportunity to inspect your

1 hospital?

2 A. I cannot think of any valid reason. I can't understand. Quite

3 obviously, the reason was to cover up the crimes.

4 Q. The statement with its supplements that have been produced to you,

5 we'll have it in translation soon, I hope, and you may, if you want, have

6 an opportunity to read it after you leave here again and make any comments

7 to us at that stage, maybe. But tell us, was it taken by way of

8 interrogation or was it a free statement that you wrote yourself? Just in

9 a sentence, explain how it came to be written so the Judges can

10 understand.

11 A. The statement was taken through an interrogation. Every day, all

12 day, I was interrogated, questioned, every day and all day. I was asked

13 questions, I was given precise instructions as to how I was to write the

14 statement. But let me say that I wanted to write the actual state of

15 affairs in the statement, about the shelling, about the way in which

16 people were being killed during the occupation, however, Colonel Branko

17 insisted upon me writing it but writing it according to his instructions.

18 And he said the sooner I wrote the statement, the sooner I would be

19 exchanged.

20 Q. Did you, to your knowledge, include in the statement, because of

21 the instructions of the officer, anything that you knew to be untrue at

22 the time or not?

23 A. No. What I knew at the time is what I wrote at the time. I

24 cannot remember everything now. I would have to read through the

25 statement again to remind myself of all the things in it.

1 Q. Thank you. It's obvious, from what you've given, that you had no

2 knowledge at the time of making the statement of Ovcara and what had

3 happened there. Would that be correct?

4 A. Yes, that would be correct.

5 Q. Of the doctors referred to as saying things adverse to you,

6 Dr. Zvenkovic, has he, until recently, worked at the hospital?

7 A. He's working there now too, but he's on sick leave. He's ill at

8 the moment.

9 Q. Do you get on well with him?

10 A. We do get on, yes.

11 Q. Has he given you an explanation as to how his statement came to be

12 prepared?

13 A. He came to my office himself and said that what the papers in

14 Serbia were writing was not correct, that he never made the statements to

15 the journalists. And then I didn't pursue it.

16 Q. Dr. --

17 A. He told me that himself.

18 Q. Dr. Emejdi.

19 A. Dr. Emejdi is working there now too. I said that he was in

20 detention in Nis, together with his father, and that he was exchanged the

21 name day I was. I never discussed the matter with him. And he works at

22 the hospital today too.

23 Q. Did Djuranec?

24 A. Dr. Djuranec is working in the health centre, or maybe he's

25 retired, I'm not quite sure, so I don't actually cooperate with him now

1 either.

2 MR. NICE: A very quick exhibit, please, if we may look at it.

3 It's a list of persons detained in the Stajicevo camp, which is the camp

4 where the witness's husband was detained and, on her evidence, maltreated.

5 May we just look at this, please. Original to the -- no. Just one copy

6 of that, please. Don't trouble with the overhead projector. Copies

7 immediately to the Judges to save time, if you'd be so good.

8 Q. If we look at this document - there's an English translation of

9 what is necessary affixed to it - does this show, please, Dr. Bosanac,

10 that Vladimir Emejdi was in this camp, if this record is accurate, between

11 the 19th of November and the 10th of December? And then a few names above

12 him, in the middle of the page, number 153, Tomislav Djuranec was in

13 prison from an uncertain date until the 10th of December, 1991?

14 A. Yes. That's correct.

15 Q. Thank you. Just a few more questions, matters of detail. You

16 spoke of the -- somebody was suggested to you as having been shot. You

17 knew the name. You spoke of his son as having been involved in Ovcara.

18 What was the name of either the father or the son, please?

19 A. The father who was wounded by a shell, I don't know how he was

20 killed. His name was Tomo Jakovljevic [Realtime transcript read in error

21 "Jakovjevic"].

22 Q. And the son who you say was involved in Ovcara, do you want to

23 name him?

24 A. I don't know his name. I can't remember, I don't know. I just

25 heard that the son had been involved.

1 Q. You told the --

2 A. There's a mistake here on this monitor, on the screen. It's not

3 Tomo Jakov Jevic, it's Tomo Jakovljevic. Between the V and the J should

4 stand an L. Jakovljevic, L-J, V-L-J.

5 Q. You told the learned Judges of some guardsmen at the hospital. I

6 think you said six. How were they dressed, and in particular, were they

7 in white coats?

8 A. They were dressed differently. Some had jackets of the ZNG kind.

9 Some were wearing civilian jackets. They weren't all wearing uniforms,

10 and they weren't all in white coats either. And the commander of that

11 platoon was Tihomir Perkovic. I know some of them personally by name, but

12 all of them were killed.

13 Q. Two other questions and I think I'm done on topics relating to

14 your evidence to which the accused has made passing reference in saying

15 that the JNA were uninvolved. He's spoken of 200 buses, I think, taking

16 people from Vukovar under the protection of the JNA. Was there anything

17 or anybody against whom people in Vukovar at that time needed to be

18 protected by the JNA?

19 A. They needed protection from Arkan's volunteers and Chetniks,

20 unfortunately, I'm sorry to say.

21 Q. What happened to those -- we'll deal with that through other

22 evidence.

23 And when --

24 A. Yes. But I can tell you, because I know that two of my nurses

25 were killed after the occupation, and the husband of one of my associates.

1 He's a Ruthenian and she's a Serb lady. They stayed in Vukovar, and he

2 was taken off and killed just because he was a witness to Ovcara. And

3 according to the data, 347 persons in total were killed after the

4 occupation of Vukovar by the JNA.

5 Q. If -- it will be for the Judges to decide in due course. If

6 Sljivancanin was keeping the eyes of the Red Cross from movement on the

7 other bridge or if he was keeping Red Cross from your hospital, was there

8 any reason why at those times the Red Cross should not have had access to

9 your hospital, Doctor?

10 A. There was none because the Red Cross had already been, on the

11 previous evening, to the hospital, the night of the previous day. And the

12 war operations had ceased so there was absolutely no reason, according to

13 the agreement signed on the 18th, on the Monday. Everybody was -- it was

14 made possible for everybody to come to the hospital.

15 Q. In your evidence, I think, in Dokmanovic --

16 A. -- could have come earlier, too.

17 Q. In your evidence in Dokmanovic, I think you deal with the white

18 van - you deal with it in the summary - that you saw on an occasion when

19 you were taken off by the JNA soldier. Was any reason given by that JNA

20 soldier why you were denied access to the occupants of a white van who you

21 believed to be international observers?

22 A. No reason whatsoever.

23 Q. Finally, by way of possibly emphasis or repetition, just to make

24 it clear, you speak of a regime of disarming people when they came to the

25 hospital. Just in a sentence, describe that regime for the Judges.

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1 A. At the entrance to the hospital, the wounded persons were brought

2 in and soldiers and civilians, and there was a man there in charge from

3 the police. His name was Lukenda Branko. He was in civilian clothes, and

4 it was his task to take over the weapons from the wounded. He would make

5 a list of them and take them to the police building, which was about 300

6 metres away from the hospital. So everybody, once they came to the

7 hospital, whether they were sick or wounded, the weapons would be taken

8 away from them.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. And if somebody would come to visit, they would also have to leave

11 behind their weapons.

12 Q. Thank you. That concludes my questions.

13 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Bosanac, thank you for coming to the International

14 Tribunal to give your evidence. You are free to go, and obviously you

15 should go quickly to catch your flight.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 MR. NICE: -- the next witness comes in, may I have just a couple

19 of minutes in private session.

20 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness go. Now we next must turn to the

21 exhibits and put them into order.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Defence Exhibit 90 is the further

23 report of the Secretary-General pursuant to Security Council Resolution

24 749, dated 12 May, 1992.

25 Defence Exhibit 91 is the report of the Secretary-General pursuant

1 to paragraph 4 of the Security Council Resolution 752, dated 30 May 1992.

2 Defence Exhibit 92 is the further report of the Secretary-General

3 pursuant to the Security Council Resolution 721, dated 4 February 1992.

4 Defence Exhibit 93 is the further report of the Secretary-General

5 pursuant to Security Council Resolution 743, dated 28 September 1992.

6 Defence Exhibit 94 is the report of the Secretary-General pursuant

7 to Security Council Resolution 743 and 762, dated 27 July 1992.

8 Defence Exhibit 95 is the handwritten statement of witness

9 Dr. Vesna Bosanac made in prison.

10 Defence Exhibit 95.1 is additional statement of Dr. Bosanac, dated

11 30 November 1991.

12 Defence Exhibit 95.2 is the additional statement, dated 25

13 November 1991.

14 Defence Exhibit 96 is a letter regarding relief of duty of

15 Mr. Popovic, signed by Minister Hebrang.

16 Defence Exhibit 97 is marked for identification and is a letter

17 signed by Dr. Bosanac addressed to Mr. Granac, dated 13 October, 1991.

18 Defence Exhibit 98 is the payment slip signed by Dr. Bosanac's

19 husband, Mr. Lavoslav Bosanac.

20 Defence Exhibit 99 is the list from the medical centre of persons

21 killed from 25th of August, 1991.

22 Defence Exhibit 100 is the excerpts from the book of

23 anaesthesiology.

24 And finally, Your Honour, the list of the persons who were

25 detained in the Camp Stajicevo is Prosecutor's Exhibit 386.

1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Now, you wanted --

2 MR. NICE: Private session for a couple of minutes.

3 [Private session]

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5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

7 MR. NICE: I call General Aleksandar Vasiljevic. I trust the

8 Court has some binders of exhibits, probably two, I think, one relating to

9 the first part of his testimony and the second relating to events in

10 Kosovo.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness come in.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will

15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to take a seat.

17 WITNESS: ALEKSANDAR VASILJEVIC

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examined by Mr. Nice:

20 Q. Your full name is Aleksandar Vasiljevic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Retired general?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. First page, page 1 of the summary, I'll summarise the background

25 so far as material.

1 General, were you born in 1938, enrolling in the Military Academy

2 between 1958 and 1961? Paragraph 3. In your career, working in the

3 security administration from 1961 to 1964 first. Paragraph 5. Later on

4 in your career, in 1982, becoming the head of the security department of

5 the Sarajevo army. And then 1986 to 1988 being head of

6 counter-intelligence within the security administration at what is called

7 the SSNO, which is the Federal Secretariat for People's Defence.

8 From the 8th of July of 1990, were you deputy head of that

9 security administration, a position you held until the 16th of June, 1991,

10 when you were appointed its head, being pensioned off prematurely on the

11 8th of May of 1992?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Were you arrested in July 1992 --

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, if you can help us with the rank and when

15 he was in KOS.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. The rank at the time you retired. What rank did you hold?

18 A. The rank of major general.

19 Q. Following your premature pensioning, were you arrested, subject of

20 charges which were subsequently -- beg your pardon -- in respect of which

21 you were subsequently acquitted?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. On the 7th of April 1999, did you offer your services to your

24 country, being appointed deputy head of the security service of the army

25 of Yugoslavia, a post you held until March 2000 when you were appointed

1 advisor for security to the chief of the General Staff of the army, being

2 pensioned from the 31st of December, 2000, and leaving the service finally

3 on the 31st of March, 2001?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. General, do you live openly in Belgrade, and is the position that

6 when you realised you'd been named by the OTP as a member of the joint

7 criminal enterprise in one of these indictments, did you go to the OTP

8 field office being prepared to be interviewed and adopting the same

9 position in relation to being interviewed ever since?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Have you come to any arrangement with the OTP since then, save as

12 is necessary for securing appropriate security measures for yourself

13 and/or for your family in respect of your giving evidence here?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Various topics we must cover or we will cover: The first, the

16 structure of the JNA in 1991.

17 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, I will obviously, to save time, lead

18 on matters that appear to be non-controversial.

19 Q. In 1987, had there been a large scale reorganisation of the JNA

20 aimed at modernising it, as a result of which there were three military

21 districts and one military naval district that replaced the former five

22 armies with a corps structure being introduced instead of divisions,

23 together with a brigade structure?

24 A. That's correct. However, in the interpretation, the word that was

25 used "okrug," that is not proper in the Serbian language. So the word

1 "oblast," should be used, "military oblast," military district.

2 Q. Paragraph 11. As a result of these changes, was there a large

3 number of divisions that were abolished, and did the number of generals

4 reduce from 170 to about 136?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Very well.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the map that should follow paragraph 12

8 has yet to arrive, so I will come back to it as appropriate.

9 Paragraph 13. Your Honour, may we propose marking of the binders

10 as exhibits with tab numbers as sub-exhibits, or whatever the proper

11 description is, and if so, may the binder of -- first larger binder of the

12 exhibits be given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecutor's Exhibit 387, Your Honours.

14 MR. NICE: May the witness, therefore, have before him on the

15 overhead projector Exhibit 387, tab 1.

16 Q. We turn then to the command structure. Does this chart, which you

17 had an opportunity to review in advance, show the command structure of the

18 JNA at the time, the position being that underneath the Federal

19 Presidency, there is the Federal Secretary for People's Defence, what we

20 may describe in shorthand by the acronym SSNO, in the person of Colonel

21 General Veljko Kadijevic, he being a member of the government taking part

22 in the work of the government as its Federal Secretary?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The chart or plan shows how operational command was effective, and

25 we can see that subordinate to the SSNO there was a deputy, there was a

1 chief of General Staff, there were assistants to the SSNO, there was the

2 head of UB, which is yourself, and then there was the chief of the cabinet

3 of the SSNO. And before we move from there, we see subordinate to him was

4 the 1st Motor Guards Brigade, commanded by Colonel Mile Mrksic; correct?

5 A. Yes. However, there were several assistant secretaries, several

6 assistant federal secretaries. There were more of them, not one.

7 JUDGE MAY: May I see the senior legal officer on an urgent

8 matter.

9 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I'm sorry to interrupt.

11 MR. NICE:

12 Q. Taking the map shortly -- or not the map, the plan shortly,

13 commanding of the various military districts, which we see at the bottom,

14 the three military districts and the naval and so on, was by which route?

15 Did it come from the Federal Secretary or did it come from the chief of

16 the General Staff?

17 A. These military districts, that is to say the naval district and

18 the air force district, were directly subordinated to the Federal

19 Secretary for National Defence.

20 As for technical communications and conveying orders that the

21 Federal Secretary had verified, it was the chief of the General Staff of

22 the armed forces whose job that was.

23 Q. We see on the chart, to which we may return or which will

24 otherwise simply be available, that there's a dotted line at the foot of

25 the solid line from the chief of the General Staff running down to the

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1 military districts. That dotted line reflects what in the nature of

2 command or communication?

3 A. Well, practically, orders came through the chief of General Staff

4 towards the military districts. However, as for direct command to the

5 military districts and the heads of the military districts was under the

6 Federal Secretary for National Defence.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we can now go back to the map that was to

9 be tendered at the end of paragraph 12. With your leave, it will become

10 Exhibit 326, tab 21.

11 Q. Using the pointer, if you wish, and to familiarise yourself with

12 the overhead projector and the method of giving evidence in this court,

13 could you just point out the military districts for us, although they're

14 probably pretty well self-explanatory.

15 A. This line is incorrect, the one for the 1st Military District, the

16 one that's been marked here. It did not go to Virovitica, Sisak, because

17 it was further to the east than this marked border is.

18 Q. Very well. That apart, is the approximate delineation of the

19 districts of the 1st, 5th, and 3rd military districts accurate?

20 A. That border, the western border, the north-western border of the

21 1st Military District included Osijek and Vukovar.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we move on in the summary to page 6,

24 paragraph 18, the end of it, really, which is Exhibit 387, tab 2. If that

25 could go on the overhead projector, we'll refer to it in a minute or so.

1 Q. You've heard of this before, General. When a state of war or a

2 state of emergency or a state of imminent threat of war was declared,

3 which individual or body became the Supreme Commander?

4 A. The Supreme Commander is practically the Presidency of Yugoslavia.

5 Directly, from an executive point of view vis-a-vis the Federal

6 Secretariat of National Defence, that is done by the president of the

7 Presidency. Then the secretariat becomes the staff of the Supreme

8 Command.

9 Q. The role or potential role of General Kadijevic set out here in

10 the Supreme Command Staff would be what in one of those three states?

11 A. Well, practically, he carries out these professional duties. He

12 drafts decisions on how the armed forces will be used. And on behalf of

13 the Supreme Commander, he conveys this in an executive fashion to the

14 units in-depth.

15 Q. I'm sorry that the colour charts don't actually show as well as

16 we'd hoped, but we can see, for those who can't see it on the monitors,

17 that the Federal Presidency that becomes the Supreme Command has eight

18 members, one for each of the six republics and one for each of the two

19 autonomous or semi-autonomous provinces.

20 I move to the role of the Territorial Defence and coordination of

21 the Territorial Defence with the JNA; paragraph 21, page 4.

22 General, in peacetime, by whom was the Territorial Defence run?

23 A. In peacetime, the Territorial Defence is run by the republic

24 concerned. The Supreme Commander of the Territorial Defence in times of

25 war, for all Territorial Defences, is the Supreme Command. In peacetime

1 in the Territorial Defence, there is also a republic staff of the

2 Territorial Defence, which is a military professional body, and it is

3 practically subordinated to the president of the republic.

4 Q. Very well. So in peacetime, practically subordinated to the

5 president of the republic, in one of the three states - state of war,

6 imminent threat of war, or state of emergency - subordinate to who?

7 A. So at the level of Yugoslavia, it's to the Presidency of

8 Yugoslavia as the Supreme Commander. The president of the republic

9 becomes commander of the Territorial Defence.

10 Q. If a Territorial Defence unit - paragraph 22 - found itself

11 operating within a zone controlled by the JNA, which body would be

12 subordinate, if at all, to which body?

13 A. There is always the principle of a -- of singleness or unity of

14 command. One command includes the operations of all armed forces in a

15 particular area. In this case, if the dominant operations are the

16 operations of the JNA in the area where it is, the units of the

17 Territorial Defence are subordinated to the Yugoslav People's Army. That

18 is to say that these units are resubordinated. However, these units of

19 the Territorial Defence can also operate autonomously.

20 For example, if these are problems related to the control of

21 territory. However, if it is a question of combat use or joint

22 operations, then they are subordinated to the military command.

23 Q. Did the Territorial Defence consist of both territorial and

24 manoeuvre units?

25 A. Well, the real interpretation would be territorial units. So it

1 refers to a particular territory, that structure. Territorial -- the

2 Territorial Defence had a territorial structure and manoeuvre structure,

3 if that is right. I mean, I hope that the actual meaning of this is

4 recognisable.

5 Q. Were the manoeuvre units allowed to operate outside their own

6 territory?

7 A. In a situation in the battlefield, if it was necessary to use

8 those units wherever it may have been necessary. So it was not strictly

9 linked to the territory of one republic.

10 Q. If a Territorial Defence manoeuvre unit found itself operating in

11 the territory of another republic, to whom would it then be answerable and

12 subordinate?

13 A. Well, again, according to the same principle, they should be

14 subordinated to the units of the JNA if they are carrying out combat

15 operations.

16 Q. So to take examples that may be pertinent of this case, page 23 of

17 the atlas if the Chamber needs reminding, which I suspect it won't, if

18 there was a territorial detachment from Valjevo in Serbia operating in

19 Lovas during operations relating to Vukovar, that Territorial Defence

20 would be subordinate to which military district of the JNA?

21 A. The 1st Military District.

22 Q. Likewise, if territorial units from Montenegro found themselves

23 deployed in Kordun, to whom would they be subordinate?

24 A. The 5th Military District.

25 Q. For those deployments and subordinations to occur, would the

1 republican territorial commander's authorisation be required?

2 A. I assume that it would be required.

3 Q. And so for units coming from the Republic of Serbia, the authority

4 of whom would be required for such deployment?

5 A. I think that the president of the republic, as the Supreme

6 Commander of those units in the republic, should give his approval. And

7 this could go along the Supreme Command line, that is to say from the

8 Presidency towards the republic and the JNA.

9 Q. The JNA and the conflict in Croatia. Paragraph 27.

10 In your experience and understanding, General, the JNA had, I

11 think, goals that you number as three. Paragraph 27. What were the first

12 two goals, so far as you were concerned, of the JNA in the conflict that

13 was developing?

14 A. Well, that conflict had different stages, but the first and basic

15 objective was, during the first stage, for the JNA to separate the parties

16 in conflict. This is a conflict that the JNA did not take part in. These

17 parties in conflict were the Serb forces in the territory of Croatia, and

18 paramilitary units in Croatia.

19 Later, the objectives were to protect, first and foremost, the JNA

20 units which were then, for the most part, in facilities and barracks that

21 were under blockade in the territory of Croatia. And sometime from August

22 or September onwards, 1991 - that is what we are talking about - the

23 protection of endangered peoples is referred to, the people in those areas

24 that were attacked by either side, any side. Specifically in that period

25 of time that we're referring to, that is to say September 1991, this had

1 to do with the protection of the Serb people in some areas - Banija, Lika,

2 Kordun - where there were combat operations and attacks of the National

3 Guards Corps that had been established as an army by then.

4 Q. Was there, in your opinion, any question of the JNA forcing a

5 political solution to the crisis?

6 A. Never. Not in any period of time. The JNA never imposed a

7 solution or ways of getting out of the crisis. And as far as I know, the

8 JNA adhered to those principles and that it would wait for political

9 solutions and act upon them.

10 Q. On the 30th of June of 1991, did Borisav Jovic make an

11 announcement, a public announcement, of a particular goal that you recall?

12 A. Yes, I do recall that. It was the 19th session of the Federal

13 Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order, in fact, and I

14 attended the meeting. The meeting discussed the conflict in Slovenia. In

15 -- let me answer in the briefest possible terms.

16 Borisav Jovic, who presided over the meeting, presented the view

17 that I heard at that time for the first time, actually, and that view was

18 this: That nobody should be forced to remain within Yugoslavia, and the

19 Slovenes in this case, if they did not wish to do so, and that the army

20 or, rather, the JNA should come out, should withdraw from Slovenia, and go

21 up to the new borders, although, actually, he didn't specify what these

22 borders were. He didn't define them.

23 Q. Thank you. On the -- these topics generally, Exhibit 387, tab 3,

24 please. And to save time, can we hand the -- sorry. Distribute them.

25 One for the witness and an English version for the overhead projector.

1 Your Honour, although my normal practice is to place originals on

2 the overhead projector for viewing, there's a great deal of material to

3 get through, and unless instructed otherwise, I'll simply hand the

4 original to the witness and proceed directly to the use of the English.

5 General, do you have before you a directive for the use of the

6 armed forces? If we look at it, it's dated the 10th of December, 1991,

7 from the Federal Secretary for -- Secretariat for National Defence. It

8 encloses a directive for national defence on the use of armed forces in

9 the forthcoming period, signed by Major General Polic. The directive

10 itself then, please. Next page, please, Usher. Thank you very much.

11 At the foot of the page in the English, but under paragraph,

12 General, under the heading, The Yugoslav People's Army and Territorial

13 Defence, and then if we go, Usher, please, to the next page and the top of

14 it, page 3, that paragraph reads as follows. "Our armed forces are

15 entering a new period of exceptional significance for accomplishing the

16 ultimate aims of the war: Protection of the Serbian population, a peaceful

17 resolution of the Yugoslav crisis, and the creation of conditions in which

18 Yugoslavia may be preserved for those people that wish to live in it.

19 Therefore, the preservation of combat readiness of the Yugoslav People's

20 Army and the armed forces as a whole is still the central task of command

21 and control ..." and so on.

22 And if we turn simply to the last page, we see that it's signed by

23 General Veljko Kadijevic.

24 General Vasiljevic, does that order or directive accord with your

25 understanding of the objectives of the JNA at that time?

1 A. Well, I think that I gave my answer in the previous answer, and

2 that is identical with what I said in this particular case. I spoke about

3 the period around September --

4 Q. We move on to the question of arming of Serbs in Croatia, page 6,

5 paragraph 36.

6 Did you, General, at the beginning of 1991, learn of an incident

7 involving the man known as Arkan in Dvor na Uni?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What had he been doing at the time with whoever else?

10 A. According to what was made public via the information media, he

11 was arrested by the MUP of Croatia, together with Zoran Stevanovic and

12 Bambic -- I don't remember this man's first name. And this took place at

13 Dvor na Uni. And on that occasion, they were found with weapons that they

14 were transporting.

15 Q. Who was behind the supply of weapons, as you understood it from

16 the information coming to you at the time?

17 A. Well, as I understood it, behind it was, in a way, the MUP of

18 Serbia, and I say that for the following reason: I know that the then

19 Minister of the Interior of Serbia, Radmilo Bogdanovic, intervened with

20 the Minister of the Interior of Croatia, Josip Boljkovac, so that Arkan

21 and these two co-travellers of his be released and returned to Serbia.

22 Q. As a matter of interest, do you know what were the terms of the

23 intervention? I don't know if you were asked about this. Do you know if

24 any money passed?

25 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know about that.

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1 Q. Paragraph 38. There was a decision or, rather, there was an

2 attempt at a decision of the SFRY Presidency in 1991 to have a state of

3 emergency declared, but no such decision was taken. Following that, was

4 there a pattern of Serbs arming themselves?

5 A. According to the information that the security administration of

6 the JNA had at the time, smaller quantities of weapons were being taken

7 from Serbia towards the Kninska Krajina area, the Krajina. And according

8 to my own knowledge, this took place in three instances. They were

9 hunting weapons. It took place in three stages, and the hunting rifles

10 were procured through the Sport company in Belgrade, through the mediation

11 of a firm called Universal.

12 Now, these weapons, for the most part, were returned in January

13 1991, after an order was issued by the Yugoslav state Presidency on the

14 disarming of paramilitaries.

15 After that, although I don't have any specific knowledge, I just

16 know the general situation and what that was like, but after the

17 unsuccessful attempt made in March 1991 to effect complete general

18 disarmament, both of the Croats and the others who failed to return their

19 weapons following -- pursuant to the previous order that had been issued,

20 my information showed that something -- that people started to -- the Serb

21 forces, in fact, started to arm themselves on a greater scale in the

22 Serbian Krajina. And it is in this period of time, that is to say the

23 beginning of 1991, that training began. We learnt that the training of

24 volunteer units had started in a camp called Golubic near Knin.

25 Q. Thank you. We'll come to training in due course.

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I think we've probably come to the time to

2 adjourn.

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we're making progress.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vasiljevic, we are going to adjourn now. Could

5 you be back, please, at 9.00 tomorrow morning to continue your evidence.

6 Would you remember also, please, during this adjournment and any others

7 not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does

8 include the members of the Prosecution team.

9 Very well. We will adjourn now. Tomorrow morning.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of

12 February, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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