Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17924

1 Friday, 14 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

11 Q. Dr. Strinovic, I would like now to go through the separate

12 sections of binder 1 of the Exhibit 410 and answer specific questions.

13 And first of all, in relation to tab 1, with your report and now also as

14 tab 1 of this exhibit, you provided a chart giving the total number of

15 5.140 examined bodies and the forensic findings, and you also refer in

16 this chart to the number of 11.834 killed that we saw in Mr. Grujic's

17 report. Why is your number so much smaller?

18 A. What I can tell you is that there is the figure of 11.834 persons

19 killed in Croatia. The figure of 5.140 refers to all those cases who were

20 processed in the mortuaries in Zagreb, Osijek, Vinkovci, Rijeka and

21 Virovitica. That is to say it is one number of cases which were

22 investigated by forensic medical technicians and pathologists and a large

23 number of cases did not reach the mortuary, so at the beginning of the war

24 when there are a lot of victims, what was done was the causes of death

25 were determined. They were mostly soldiers therefore, and the

Page 17925

1 circumstances of their death and investigation was carried out on the

2 field -- in the field without any autopsy examinations or any forensic

3 professionals or pathologists taking part. So I think that that is why

4 there is such a big difference. This was a war, it was a situation where

5 we had a large number of dead, and quite simply, not all the bodies were

6 taken to the mortuary or able to be taken to the mortuary, but a

7 speeded-up process was applied, witnesses' testimony and the bodies

8 buried.

9 Q. Now turning to tab 2. You have here the number of exhumed bodies

10 given in total with 3.373. That's slightly smaller than the number that

11 was given in Mr. Grujic's report. Can you explain why there is a

12 difference?

13 A. What I can tell you is that this figure of 3.373 was obtained from

14 the government office for missing persons and detainees, and that number

15 changes almost daily. So if we had a date which corresponded to the

16 figure, then we'd know. But all those -- all those figures came from the

17 same sources, and the figure would change according to the date on which

18 it was published.

19 Q. So what we have here under tab 2, that's the current situation in

20 relation to exhumations and identifications?

21 A. Yes, that's right. I think that's what it is.

22 Q. And now, in your work did you also take part in exhumations and

23 identification of victims of Serb ethnicity?

24 A. In the course of our work, we did exhume and identify persons who

25 were of Serb ethnicity from the very beginning of the war, so that already

Page 17926

1 in 1991, the exhumation was conducted of part of the corpses of people who

2 had fallen victim in Vukovar.

3 Q. Dr. Strinovic, I do not want to go into details of these

4 exhumations because it is outside of the Prosecution case, but in case the

5 Judges or the parties would hear from you about such exhumations, you

6 would be able to give details?

7 A. Yes, I would. That's right.

8 Q. Let's now turn to tab 3, and you have here listed those findings

9 in relation to paragraph 39 of the indictment, Vocin. What can you tell

10 us about the Vocin crime scene in relation to your findings? Can you

11 explain when you found the grave, what you did do with the bodies and so

12 on.

13 A. According to available data, it was the event that took place on

14 the 13th of December, 1991 when 43 persons were killed in the vicinity of

15 Vocin, and their bodies were discovered the next day and were dealt with

16 at the morgue in Slatina near Vocin on the 17th of December, 1991.

17 As you can see from this table here, there were 43 persons in all,

18 43 bodies, 30 of whom were shot dead, met their death through firearms,

19 another from explosives and others from blunt objects and violent deaths

20 such as knife wounds, burnings and so on. With six individuals, the cause

21 of death was unknown. All I can tell you is that they were all civilians

22 killed in their own homes or in front of their own thresholds. They were

23 mostly elderly persons, men and women, and at the spot at which they were

24 killed is where their bodies were found, which means the bodies weren't

25 moved at all.

Page 17927

1 Q. And when did you see this -- got in contact with the bodies;

2 immediately afterwards or --

3 A. The employees of the Institute for Forensic Medicine carried out

4 the autopsies on the 17th of December, 1991. That is to say we saw the

5 bodies four days after the event, after they were killed.

6 Q. Under tab 4, you have provided two photos, and what -- the photo

7 in relation to the person Stojan Nenadovic, what does it tell us about the

8 cause of death?

9 A. May we have the photograph displayed?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I don't think that we need to

11 have it on the ELMO, because we all have it in the binder, and I think

12 it's not necessary to put it on the ELMO.

13 Q. You can explain it, how we see it. We have it in front of us.

14 You can simply explain it. And if it is necessary to point something out,

15 I think then it's only for the ELMO.

16 A. Thank you very much, yes. So this was one particular case. The

17 person was a Serb. He was killed by being beaten with chains all over his

18 body, and it was due to those beatings that there was a haemorrhagic shock

19 that set in and ultimately death. It was an individual whose son was in

20 the Croatian army, and we assume that's the reason he was killed.

21 The other individual under number 23, this was a person who was

22 killed by a blow from an axe, and we can see a very deep wound, typical

23 for a wound being caused by a heavy sharp object like an axe. So this

24 would be shown by the way he was hit on the head.

25 Q. You didn't give the name on the photo. I can't see the name of

Page 17928

1 this person. Do you know the name, whether it is someone from the

2 schedule in the indictment?

3 A. Yes. This particular individual was from Vocin, but I can't say

4 any more than that.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, tab 5 is a surrogate. We always

6 put a surrogate sheet in here when the underlying documentation is in the

7 other binders. It would be mostly exhumation reports.

8 Q. Let's now turn to tab 6. It's the chart related to the village

9 Bacin and paragraph 40 of the indictment. What can you tell us about this

10 scene?

11 A. This was an event that took place on the 21st of October, 1991,

12 when we consider that these persons were killed and found on the 13th to

13 the 23rd of March, 1997, in Bacin. And we found 58 bodies at that time.

14 And as can be seen from the table, of those 58 individuals, 25 lost their

15 lives through being shot by firearms, one individual suffered a trauma to

16 the body, and three individuals once again were shot by firearms. One

17 person, the cause of death there must have been an explosive device. With

18 28 of the bodies, we were not able to ascertain the cause of death.

19 Let me also mention that Vocin is a gravesite which was very

20 difficult to investigate, complex, because the bodies were very much

21 impaired. We had to work on the ground, and those are the results that we

22 obtained under those circumstances.

23 Q. And you have -- at tab 7, you have given one photo. Why did you

24 select this photo?

25 A. This particular photograph was selected. It was one of the rare

Page 17929












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Page 17930

1 ones where we were able to show the cause of death. So this is a

2 photograph on which we can see a large part of the cranial bone and the

3 defects that are typical for a shotgun wound. So this was death by shot

4 from a firearm to the back of the head.

5 Q. Under tab 8, you have given names of victims from the list in the

6 indictment related to this count, and you have put abbreviations behind

7 them. Can you explain what the abbreviations mean.

8 A. Yes, I can. For example, for the first individual, Jukic, "S"

9 means a firearm wound, a bullet wound. With the second one, it was an

10 explosive. The third and fourth individuals once again through bullet

11 wounds. The following one, Kulisic, was a trauma by a blunt object. The

12 last two individuals we don't list the cause of death; the cause of death

13 was not known.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, just an explanation for the

15 systematic of this binder. As far as we did not have exhumation reports

16 in-house, Dr. Strinovic checked his documentation in Zagreb and made these

17 findings so that we know the cause of death for these people. We had

18 particularly asked him to give us the findings from his documentation.

19 And you will find in the course of the binder, you will find these

20 abbreviations again and again.

21 Q. Let's now turn to tab 9. That's Lipovanic, paragraph 42. What

22 can you tell us about this scene?

23 A. First of all, I can tell you that it is the Lipovacka Dreznica

24 near Rakovica which is the place, not Lipovanici. And the date is the

25 28th of October, 1991 when these individuals disappeared. The exhumation

Page 17931

1 took place from the mass grave on the 12th of June, 1996, in Lipovacka

2 Dreznica. The identification was conducted on the ground, in the field.

3 And according to the indictment, there are eight names or, rather, seven

4 individuals, actually, because one person's name is to be found twice,

5 Bozincevic Franjo, in the indictment. So in fact, there were seven

6 persons. Apart from that, in the indictment we see the surname of

7 Cindric, Marija Cindric, and this person's name was actually Brozincevic

8 Marija, and all these seven persons were identified. The cause of death

9 established, which is indicated in the table where we can see that one

10 individual lost their lives to being shot by a firearm, another through

11 trauma caused by a blunt object, and the four other individuals probably

12 again gunshot wounds. With one of the persons, the cause of death was

13 unknown.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Dr. Strinovic just pointed out

15 that Franjo and Franje is the same person. So there's only one Franjo who

16 was in the grave and was killed. And the name for Marija, the surname for

17 Marija is a different one than given here.

18 Q. In relation to tab 11, Vukovici, what can you tell us about this?

19 A. This was an event that took place on the 7th of November, 1991,

20 when these persons disappeared. And they were exhumed on the 13th of

21 August, 1996.

22 In the Vukovici hamlet, we found two persons on the indictment who

23 were identified. They are Vukovic Nikola and Vukovic Ivan, and they were

24 killed from a firearm. They were shot. Of the others on the indictment,

25 let me say that there are data according to which these individuals were

Page 17932

1 all killed through burning. They were all burnt.

2 I should like to mention in this regard that there is some

3 difference in the surnames. In the indictment we have Matinovic as one

4 surname, Matinovic Joso and Matinovic Nikola. Those were the other names.

5 However, it was Matovina Josip and Matovina Nikola. Matovina was the

6 surname.

7 In the Vukovici hamlet we found a site where the burning had taken

8 place with at least four bodies, but we can assume that in fact the seven

9 people listed in the indictment lost their lives at that same spot. Let

10 me also add that in Vukovici, we found the bodies of two other persons,

11 and we have ascertained the cause of death. They are Loncar Ivan and

12 Loncar Milan, bothers, and they were found hanged.

13 Q. You said that you found -- you could actually identify four bodies

14 burned, but how can it be that there are still more burned? How did you

15 make the finding that it should be more than four? You give here at least

16 six burned, in your schedule. How could you determine that?

17 A. No. In the list it says that there were a total of at least six

18 bodies. Of that number, at least four were burnt, and as to two persons,

19 those two were hanged. So the remains of bones were found, and those bone

20 remains indicated that there were at least four persons, four bodies.

21 Now, whether there were more bodies, we cannot say for sure

22 because, due to the high temperatures, the bones were very much damaged

23 when they were burnt. Some of them might have been completely destroyed,

24 leaving no traces at all. So once again, let me say there was a total of

25 six individuals, two of whom were hanged, and at least four -- so we have

Page 17933

1 proof to show that four persons had been burnt, their remains found. As

2 to the rest, we didn't find any remains, which does not exclude the

3 possibility that they were there.

4 Q. Yes. Now we turn to tab 14. Yes, tab 14, Saborsko, paragraph 44

5 in the indictment. What were your findings there?

6 A. On the 12th of November, 1991, persons went missing in the

7 Saborsko area, and they were found and exhumed on the 13th of October,

8 1995, when we discovered 27 bodies, which can be seen from the table

9 attached. We were also able to ascertain the cause of death. With one

10 person it was a wound from a firearm, traumas in six individuals, and six

11 others other causes, burnings, and so on; we found the remains of bones.

12 With 15 bodies, the cause of death was not ascertained. We were not able

13 to establish the cause of death for 15 persons.

14 Q. And under tab 15, you have given again names that you checked in

15 your office.

16 A. Yes, that's right. So we have the names of four persons from the

17 indictment where we can see the causes of death, such as trauma, other

18 causes, gunshot wounds, and once again another cause of death. And four

19 additional names which are not in the indictment but which were found in

20 the Saborsko area. They were four persons who had been burnt to death.

21 Q. And how did you identify the burned victims?

22 A. Without the protocol and records, it's difficult for me to say how

23 we did this, but what I can tell you is the following: In cases where we

24 had extensive burns in the sense of seeing that the bodies had been

25 burned, shut up in wooden houses which were burnt to the ground, what we

Page 17934

1 found there were just the remnants of bones, very small bone fragments.

2 And then with the analysis conducted by an anthropologist, we ascertained

3 whether they were human bone fragments and how many bodies were found on

4 the spot. Then we obtained information from family members and witnesses

5 who told us how many people had been shut up in those houses and what

6 their names were.

7 So in this way, combining the two, we were able to solve most of

8 the cases on the basis of witness testimonies and on the basis of the

9 number of bodies we found in the houses, and we were able to disclose the

10 fate of those persons.

11 Q. You have actually, under tab 16, provided one photo, and it's the

12 victim Kata Matovina. How could you be sure that it's her? How did you

13 ascertain that?

14 A. On this photograph, we can see the types of remains that are left

15 of a human body after they have been burnt in a house, when a fire has

16 been going on for days and when all the bodily parts have been burnt, the

17 house as well and the bodily tissue, except for some small bone fragments.

18 This person was in a bed, she was immobile, and we know which part

19 of the house she was to be found in. When we conducted the exhumation and

20 investigated the burning site, in one part, in the room of Kata Matovina

21 herself, we found some small bone fragments which, according to the

22 anthropologist, corresponded to just one person, one body. Apart from

23 that, we also found small fragments of teeth and bones which confirmed

24 that it was elderly female and to all intents and purposes, judging by

25 these findings, it would indicate that it was in fact this woman Kata

Page 17935












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Page 17936

1 Matovina.

2 Q. Let's turn now to tab 17. That's Skabrnja 1, paragraph 45 of the

3 indictment. You have here complete figures of the cause of death. What

4 -- what enabled you to be so precise here in relation to each and every

5 body?

6 A. In Skabrnja 1, these were persons who were killed between the 18th

7 and the 19th of November, 1991, and they were handed over through the

8 Croatian side on the 23rd of November, 1991, which means four days after

9 the event. So these were persons in a good -- in good condition, so they

10 were easily identifiable. And the protocols that we have here of the

11 post-mortems are quite clear, and the cause of death was clearly

12 ascertained, as can be seen from this table.

13 Q. And now I would like to turn to tab 19, and it is the -- the scene

14 Nadin. That's number 46 -- paragraph 46 in the indictment. What can you

15 tell us about this?

16 A. As in the case of Skabrnja 1, in the case of Nadin 2, this was an

17 event that took place on the 26th -- no. I'm sorry. On the 19th of

18 November, 1991, when the persons were killed. And on the 26th of

19 November, they were handed over to the Croatian side and a post-mortem was

20 carried out that same day. The bodies were well preserved, all seven

21 persons were identified, and the cause of deaths ascertained; these were

22 gunshot wounds.

23 Q. Now let's turn to tab 21. That's Skabrnja 2, paragraph 47 in the

24 indictment. Can you explain your findings here.

25 A. Skabrnja 2 refers to an event of the 18th of November, 1991, up

Page 17937

1 until February 1992. The persons were killed, and they were exhumed on

2 the 6th of June, 1996, when it was established that there were 21 persons

3 for whom we established the cause of death. For 14, gunshot wounds; 4,

4 explosions; and 3 traumas with a blunt object provoking death.

5 Q. And you have also under tab 22 created a list where you actually

6 have given the cause of death in abbreviation behind each person. Yes?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. Was -- did -- did you get any information with the -- one of these

9 persons was detained in the Knin prison?

10 A. In Skabrnja 2, I have no such information.

11 Q. Yes. Then we turn now to tab 23. That's Bruska. What can you

12 tell us about Bruska?

13 A. These are persons who were killed on the 21st of December, 1991.

14 They were exhumed on the 26th of April, 1996, when nine persons were

15 identified. And for six, the cause of death was established. Actually,

16 they first went missing and then they were found.

17 One person who was also exhumed on that day at the gravesite in

18 Bruska or, rather, Rodaljice, they were exhumed at the cemetery at

19 Rodaljice. There is also a person called Josip Marinovic who died on the

20 10th of June, 1992, as a result of mistreatment in Knin prison. This

21 information was obtained from the District Court in Zadar who ordered that

22 these bodies be exhumed.

23 Q. And you have provided actually the -- under tab 24, the

24 information from the court that you just mentioned?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17938

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the witness provided this

2 document only during the preparation for his testimony. We have not yet a

3 translation. We would provide it later when it is done. That's tab 24.

4 Q. Let's now turn to tab 26. That's Ovcara, and paragraph 49 in the

5 indictment. Can you explain how you heard about this crime scene and what

6 your observations then were?

7 A. When talking about Ovcara, the beginning date is the 19th to the

8 20th of November, 1991, when the disappearance was reported of 255 persons

9 from the hospital in Vukovar, and all trace of them was lost at the time.

10 An investigation was started in the sense of searching for a grave where

11 the victims taken from the hospital in Vukovar may be, and the first trace

12 of a gravesite was discovered in 1992 when Dr. Clyde Snow discovered

13 remains of human bones close to the Ovcara farm, and that is why we refer

14 to it as the Ovcara case.

15 In 1993, the first exhumation was started as a trial, which was

16 soon stopped after it was begun. After that, the area was guarded right

17 up until 1996 when, in September, the exhumation of bodily remains started

18 fully, exhumation as well as the processing of bodies done by

19 international experts. The exhumation lasted for a month and a half, upon

20 which the bodies were taken to the forensic institute in Zagreb where data

21 were further processed, and the bodies were handed over to the Croatian

22 side only at the beginning of 1997.

23 From the moment of exhumation until the completion of the

24 processing of the bodies, experts from Croatia as well as local Serbs or

25 experts from Serbia were present throughout, so that these were experts

Page 17939

1 from both sides who were present both at the site of the exhumation and

2 later on when the processing was done in Zagreb.

3 Q. Dr. Strinovic, you mentioned a Dr. Clyde Snow, who was -- what

4 kind of a person was he? Did he belong to any organisation?

5 A. As far as I know, he was invited by the United Nations. Now,

6 exactly which organisation he belonged to, I don't know, but he was

7 invited by international organisations to take part in the search and

8 exhumation of the remains of the persons who were killed at Ovcara.

9 Q. You mentioned that in 1993 exhumations started but stopped. Why

10 did they stop? Why was it not done?

11 A. As far as I know, the Serb side insisted that the exhumation be

12 stopped. Now, the reason behind this is something I don't know.

13 Q. And when you say "the Serb side," whom do you mean? If you don't

14 know, just say you don't know.

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. And can you explain -- can you explain now tab 27, how we should

17 read this table. The case is that -- we have here the column "Case." Are

18 these the individual bodies or what does it mean, this number?

19 A. I apologise. I should like to complete my comments on the

20 previous table. I thought that this was just an introduction. I don't

21 think we've completed addressing the previous table. So may I add a few

22 brief remarks and then answer this question?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. From this table, which is to be found on page 27, we see the

25 causes of death for 188 persons who were killed with firearms, six with a

Page 17940

1 blunt object, which means trauma. In one case, it was probably a gunshot

2 wound, and in four cases it was not possible to ascertain the cause of

3 death. So these were the 200 bodies found in the grave near Ovcara.

4 Also, may I add very briefly that among the 200 bodies, 86 it was

5 ascertained that they were wounded persons. As for the others, it was not

6 possible to establish whether they had any wounds as they had been taken

7 from the hospital. The average age of the persons found at Ovcara was 32

8 and a half, so the range was between 16 and 72 years of age. Among them

9 there were two women. Those would be my comments.

10 As for this table that you asked me about showing first the case

11 or, rather, the number of cases, from 1 to 200, how the bodies were taken

12 out of the gravesite, put in body bags and marked with numbers 1 to 200.

13 The date is the date when the exhumation was carried out. Then the

14 anthropologist, the name of the person who carried out the exhumation and

15 later identification. The sex of the person; then the age, the range,

16 minimum-maximum, the probable age; then the height, the range of the

17 height, minimum-maximum; and the pathologist who carried out the post

18 mortem. Then came the column "Cause of death" to indicate that they were

19 killings, murders in all cases. And the last column, the probable

20 identification.

21 So these were persons who, after processing, provided sufficient

22 elements to be able to be identified with a high degree of probability.

23 This was 1996/1997 when for 57 persons it was possible to assume who they

24 were. That is the last column regarding identity.

25 Q. And the next, tab 28. That's a table where you can connect the

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Page 17942

1 body number with the name of the victim after identification; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct. One can see exactly the number of cases, 1

4 to 200, the first and last names of the identified persons. And as I have

5 already said, 190 persons have been identified to this day, ten still

6 remain unidentified.

7 Q. Is the identification process still ongoing?

8 A. Yes. The process of identification, though it started in 1997,

9 continues. It started by applying classical methods, findings obtained

10 from anthropologists and forensic experts, and on the basis of their

11 findings, it was possible to identify some 100 persons. After that, over

12 the last three years, we are relying on DNA analysis for the

13 identification of the remaining cases which it is not possible to identify

14 applying classical methods.

15 Q. And you have provided under tab -- or, rather -- no. It's from

16 the Prosecution documentation on Ovcara. You have here selected, under

17 tab 29, some photos, and can you please briefly just explain what we see

18 on the photos.

19 The first photo, is that --

20 A. The first photograph shows the location where the gravesite is,

21 the Ovcara gravesite. You can see a blind -- a mild hollow which caused

22 people to suspect that there may be a grave there. Though there is

23 vegetation and trees around it, this was where trial digging was done, and

24 already on the surface, some bones were found which was a clue of the

25 existence of a mass grave.

Page 17943

1 Q. And the second photo?

2 A. On the second photograph, we see the stage when parts of bodies

3 are shown. So the exhumation was done so that first all the bodies were

4 taken out and then one by one. So we can see the surface layer where it

5 is possible to see dozens of bodies protruding from the ground.

6 Q. The next photos, do they refer to a particular victim? It's

7 called here number 5.

8 A. Each of these victims with a number already has a name, first and

9 last. Five photographs show only how these victims were thrown one on top

10 of another and mixed together, so how difficult it was to take out each of

11 those bodies without mixing up the remains of different persons.

12 Q. Yes. And you have here a photo with the number 112 and two more

13 photos related to this person. Who is he or was he?

14 A. This was a Croatian journalist, Sinisa Glavasevic, a person who

15 reported about the events in Vukovar from August 1991 until he was

16 captured and killed. So he was a reporter.

17 This shows the spot where he was found and the number under which

18 he was registered. Then on the second photograph you see the white bag in

19 which his body was placed, as was -- were the bodies of all other persons,

20 and taken to the Zagreb mortuary. And then you see the dentures of the

21 person, and it is easy to see, even a layman can see that certain

22 treatment was given to the teeth. And as each of us have -- has a

23 different situation regarding his teeth, so that the reporter could be

24 recognised on that basis too.

25 Q. And the next two photos relate to the body number 1. You picked

Page 17944

1 these photos. What can you tell us about these photos?

2 A. These photographs marked the number 1, it was the first body that

3 was exhumed at Ovcara, showing two injuries, one on the right side of the

4 head, a gunshot wound, an entry wound, and on the left-hand side, at the

5 temple, an exit gunshot wound, so it was a shot that went through the

6 skull.

7 Q. Yes. Let's now turn to tab 31. That's Baranja 1, paragraph 50 in

8 the indictment. What can you tell us about this gravesite and this case?

9 A. This was an event that took place on the 21st of September, 1991,

10 when the persons went missing, and they were found on the 23rd of

11 February, 1998 in a mass grave in Celija.

12 We have here 11 persons from the indictment. In the case of six,

13 we have the causes of death, as can be seen from this table. In the case

14 of 15 persons, the cause was trauma, that is blunt object, in the opinion

15 of the pathologist. There were damages on the bones that led them to

16 conclude that they were caused by a blunt object, and that is why that was

17 indicated as the cause of death.

18 Q. And under tab 32, you have given us these six persons that you

19 particularly checked in your institute. Is that what it means?

20 A. Yes. The names of six persons for whom the cause of death is

21 visible. As has already been stated, all of them were killed with blows

22 from a blunt object.

23 Q. And now turning to tab 33. That's Baranja, cases 2 and 3,

24 paragraph 51 in the indictment. What were your findings there?

25 A. This was an event of the 4th of October, 1991, when the persons

Page 17945

1 went missing, and they were found in several stages. In September 1999,

2 in Ilok, they were transferred from the SFRY in November and December

3 2002. A total of 17 persons of whom 13 died through gunshot wounds, one

4 due to trauma, two probably through gunshot wounds, and for two, the cause

5 of death was unknown. One of these persons, Vinko Oroz was captured in

6 Baranja, then he was in Borovo Selo and Dalj, and he was delivered on the

7 11th of November, 1998, from Novi Sad.

8 Q. And the person Marinko Somodjvorac, was he also transferred from

9 Novi Sad?

10 A. As far as I know, yes.

11 Q. In relation to this group of people, you have under tab 35

12 provided some photos. What can you tell us in relation to the photos?

13 Why did you select these photos?

14 A. Yes. In the case of Vinko Oroz, a person who was captured and

15 then found in Novi Sad, this was a person clearly killed by firearms. You

16 can see a gunshot wound with the entry wound, taken from the inside of the

17 skull. It is a typical wound and was quite certainly caused by firearms.

18 Also, Somodjvarac Marin there's also a clear gunshot wound found at the

19 back of the head and it is an entry wound, so clearly the person was

20 killed by a gunshot wound to the back of the head.

21 JUDGE KWON: Dr. Strinovic, apart from the cause of death of these

22 people, how did you know how these people were captured and delivered

23 somewhere?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The information was obtained from

25 the government Commission for Detained and Missing Persons who found this

Page 17946

1 out, and I have conveyed it to you. So I don't know. I obtained the

2 information from the government commission regarding the movement of these

3 persons from the moment they went missing until they were discovered in

4 Novi Sad.

5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.


7 Q. I would like now to turn to tab 36, Lovas minefield, paragraph 52

8 in the indictment. What were your findings there?

9 A. This was an event of the 15th of October, 1991, when the persons

10 were killed, and they were discovered in a mass grave in Lovas on --

11 between the 2nd and 9th of June, 1997. There were 21 persons from the

12 indictment. All of them were identified. And the cause of death in eight

13 cases were gunshot wounds; in one, a combination of gunshot and explosive

14 device; in one, trauma. For six cases, probably the cause of death was

15 gunshot wounds. An explosive device was the cause -- probable cause in

16 one case, and for four persons it was not possible to ascertain the cause

17 of death.

18 Q. Yes. And you have also provided here one photo, under tab 37,

19 from one of the victims. And what kind of a cause -- what cause of death

20 could you conclude from what you found in relation to this person?

21 A. Yes. It is a person from the indictment, an injury to the head, a

22 roundish, irregular defect on the skull which was probably caused by a

23 gunshot wound. So that was the cause of death, probable cause of death.

24 Q. We turn now to tab 38. That's Erdut 1, paragraph 53 in the

25 indictment. What were your findings in relation to these bodies?

Page 17947












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Page 17948

1 A. This was an event of the 9th of October, 1991, in Erdut. The

2 persons went missing on that day, and they were exhumed on the 14th of

3 October, 1998, in a mass grave at Celija. These were -- 11 persons were

4 involved. The causes of death for four persons were gunshot wounds; for

5 three, trauma; for three, probable gunshot wounds; and in one case the

6 cause of death is unknown.

7 Q. You have provided, tab 39, the cause of death for two people where

8 the Prosecution didn't have any documentation in-house. And you also

9 provided, under tab 40, two photos. Can you explain the photos?

10 A. Yes. These are persons -- that is correct. After that, two

11 photographs are shown of two persons figuring in the indictment. In both

12 cases, they are gunshot wounds. You can see a regular injury to the head

13 which indicates with certainty that these were gunshot wounds to the head.

14 Q. Now tab 41. That's Erdut case 2. Can you tell us about your

15 findings.

16 A. This was an event that took place on the 9th of October, 1991.

17 Three persons went missing and were later found in a mass grave in a well

18 in Borovo Selo. They were exhumed on the 20th of September, 2000. So

19 three persons were found and identified, and in the case of all three, the

20 cause of death was gunshot wounds.

21 Q. And in relation to tab 42, there is another Erdut case with one

22 person. It's case 7, paragraph 53. What can you tell us about this body?

23 A. This was an event of the 3rd of June, 1992, when the person went

24 missing and was found in a well in Dalj Planina, Dalj mountain, on the

25 26th of September, 2000, a person who was identified, and the cause of

Page 17949

1 death is unknown.

2 Q. Let's now turn to tab 43, Erdut Klisa, paragraph 54 of the

3 indictment. Please tell us your findings there.

4 A. It was an event that took place on the 11th or, rather, November

5 1991. Five persons who went missing and were found in the mass grave in

6 Celija and were exhumed on the 14th of October, 1998. All five

7 individuals have been identified. The causes of death can be seen from

8 the tables. Four were the result of gunshot wounds, and one cause of

9 death remained unknown.

10 Q. And you have also given us two photos in relation to -- in

11 relation to two of the victims. And what can we see from the photos?

12 A. Yes. On the photographs, we see the gunshot wounds in the head,

13 irregular wounds. And on the second photograph, we can see at least three

14 gunshot wounds to the head.

15 Q. Turning to tab 45, Vukovar, paragraph 54 and 55. What can you

16 tell us here?

17 A. This was an event that took place on the 20th of November, 1991.

18 That's the date when these persons disappeared. And they were found in

19 two localities, one in Dalj at the Catholic cemetery there on the 3rd of

20 March, 1998, which was when 11 victims were found. And in Dalj proper, or

21 the Lovas farm, 24 victims were found there on the 17th of April, 2001.

22 As we can see from the tables shown here, for the gravesite in

23 Dalj, there were -- there was one case, probably of a gunshot wound, nine

24 probably killed by explosives, and one individual whose cause of death

25 remains unknown.

Page 17950

1 In the Lovas farm gravesite, there were 20 gunshot wounds, one

2 probably gunshot wound, two traumas, and one cause of death remains

3 unknown.

4 Q. And you have also provided under tab 46 the cause of death for

5 several of the victims. That is what you checked in your files in Zagreb;

6 is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. I'm now turning to tab 47, paragraph 56 in the indictment, Erdut

9 case 4. Can you explain your findings here.

10 A. The date of this event is the 10th of December, 1991, when these

11 persons went missing. They were found in the well in the district of Dalj

12 on the 28th of October, 1998. Three persons were found and identified,

13 and the causes of death as established were as follows: With two

14 individuals, it was trauma; with one person, it was probably a gunshot

15 wound.

16 Q. And you have also provided, under tab 48, two photos. What can we

17 see from the photos in relation to actually two persons?

18 A. Yes. These photographs refer to two persons. With the first

19 person, we can see the fragments, bone fragments, of the head, the lower

20 jaw, in fact, and the upper jaw and face. So on the basis of findings of

21 this kind, the person conducting the autopsy noted that trauma was the

22 cause of death, caused by a blunt object to the head which resulted in

23 bone fracture.

24 The second photograph shows part of the bones of the skull, which

25 was fragmented. And let me say that very often the bones of the head

Page 17951

1 suffer several fractures and are in pieces, the bones are fragmented, so

2 it is difficult to reconstruct them. But here we can see on that part of

3 the skull a regular defect on the lower part of the bone and a round

4 defect which indicates that a gunshot wound was the cause of death.

5 Q. Turning now to tab 49, paragraph 57 in the indictment, Erdut case

6 5. Can you explain your findings.

7 A. This was an event that took place on the 26th of December, 1991,

8 when these persons went missing. Their bodies were discovered in the

9 Daljski Atar well on the 28th of October, 1998. There were seven persons

10 on the indictment. We found six persons who were identified, and the

11 causes of death in five cases were gunshot wounds, in one case probably

12 gunshot wound.

13 Q. You have provided several photos under tab 51. Can you explain

14 the photos.

15 A. On the photographs, you can see the causes of death. On the first

16 photograph, you see the bone of the skull with the round defect, which

17 indicates a gunshot wound. The second photograph shows the body which is

18 fairly well preserved, and you can see the direction of the channel which

19 shows the metal rod moving from the neck to the roof of the skull where

20 there's a large defect, an entry wound to the head and neck from a

21 firearm.

22 On the following picture, we can once again see this same kind of

23 gunshot wound. As I say, the body is well preserved. You can see the

24 soft tissues. And on the skull there is a large irregular defect, and the

25 rod which indicates the direction of the channel. And what you can see on

Page 17952

1 the skull is the exit wound to the skull.

2 On the following picture, this same case showing it when the bone

3 has been cleared up, and you can see the exact trajectory. What is at the

4 back is the exit wound. What you -- or entry one. What you see on the

5 front is the exit wound. So the person was shot in the back -- from the

6 back.

7 And the last photograph shows once again a wound to the skull at

8 the nape of the neck, and it is a round defect of the gunshot-wound type.

9 JUDGE KWON: Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff, if we could go back to --

10 briefly to tab 45.


12 JUDGE KWON: You can note paragraph 54, and you said it refers to

13 Vukovar. According to the indictment, it says Klisa, Erdut case 3. It

14 says here Catholic cemetery.


16 JUDGE KWON: I understand that the Catholic cemetery is the place

17 where the bodies were found.


19 JUDGE KWON: Erdut case 3 and Vukovar are the same thing. That's

20 my question.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The grave -- the Catholic cemetery

22 Vukovar is the grave, I believe. So that's why I mentioned Vukovar.

23 JUDGE KWON: But the witness said Dalj, Catholic cemetery at Dalj.


25 Q. Dr. Strinovic, just to confirm, we have listed here paragraph 54

Page 17953












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Page 17954

1 of the indictment related to an incident in Klisa also concerning the

2 Erdut training centre, and you have here mentioned Catholic cemetery as

3 the grave. Which Catholic cemetery?

4 A. Are we talking about paragraph 54, Erdut Klisa? Is that what

5 we're talking about?

6 Q. At the moment we're talking about tab 45 in the binder, and your

7 tables refer to paragraph 54 in the indictment and 55 in the indictment.

8 A. Paragraph? Paragraph 45 is Skabrnja.

9 Q. No. It was tab -- tab 45 in the binder. Tab 45 in the binder,

10 not paragraph 45 in the indictment. If you look at your tables. And it

11 refers in your table to paragraph 54 in the indictment.

12 A. May I just make something clear? It seems that there is a

13 printing error linked to paragraph 54. It is paragraph 55, both for the

14 Catholic cemetery and the Dalj Lovas paragraph. It is the same table. So

15 it must be paragraph 55, the Catholic cemetery, and paragraph 55, Dalj

16 Lovas farm. In the Croatian text that I handed over to you it says

17 paragraph 55 for both.

18 Q. You have actually detected a mistake in the table done in the

19 translation. I'm sorry for this.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But if you compare the names given by Dr.

21 Strinovic on the -- in tab 46, they correspond with the Annex 55. Yes.

22 Thank you?

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

25 Q. I believe that we were talking now about tab 52. That is

Page 17955

1 paragraph 58 in the indictment, Erdut 6. What were your findings in

2 relation to this?

3 A. This event took place on the 21st of February, 1992, when four

4 persons went missing who were subsequently found in the mass grave of the

5 Daljski Atar on the 28th of October, 1998. They were four individuals.

6 For one, a gunshot wound was the cause of death; for another it was

7 gunshot plus explosive; and with one a trauma in one case, probably once

8 again caused by an explosion. So those are the four persons identified.

9 Q. And you did provide also under tab 53 several photos. Can you

10 explain the photos.

11 A. On the first photograph you can see once again part of the skull

12 bone with a regular defect; once again a gunshot wound with this first

13 individual. On the second photograph we see the bones of the head with a

14 large defect that can be seen in the area of the eyes and forehead. A

15 large portion of the bone is missing, and the person conducting the

16 autopsy considered that the injury was caused by a blunt object which

17 destroyed this part of the skull.

18 On the following photograph, Helena Albert was the person. A

19 combination of gunshot and explosive wounds. We can see the skin

20 underneath the hair and the nape of the neck where there is a large

21 irregular defect which could have been caused by either a gunshot wound or

22 injuries caused by explosives.

23 Q. Yes. And now turning to tab 54, Grabovac, paragraph 59 in the

24 indictment. And your findings, please.

25 A. This took place on the 4th of May, 1992, when five persons went

Page 17956

1 missing. They are contained in the indictment, and their bodies were

2 found in Beli Manastir on the 15th of April, 1998. Otherwise, they were

3 transferred from another grave and location in Tikves. The cause of

4 death, one gunshot wound, two probably caused by explosives, and with two

5 persons the cause of death was not established.

6 Q. Attached -- this should conclude the binder, and I have actually

7 only one more question, and that relates to Dubrovnik. You have not

8 provided any documentation in relation to Dubrovnik and the casualties

9 there. Can you explain that?

10 A. Through the government department, I tried to get information

11 about the victims in Dubrovnik, but I did not receive them.

12 Q. So your office was not dealing with the bodies of the Dubrovnik

13 schedule in the indictment?

14 A. That's right, yes.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that concludes my

16 examination-in-chief.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Strinovic, just one question before I

20 actually go ahead with the individual cases. You mentioned in your

21 testimony a large number of locations, sites, which relate to persons who

22 lost their lives, were killed during the war, et cetera.

23 As far as I heard throughout the examination-in-chief, the only

24 place which you mentioned and which is located in the Federal Republic of

25 Yugoslavia or Republic of Serbia is Novi Sad; is that right?

Page 17957

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So all the other places that you mentioned are outside the

3 territory of Serbia or, rather, outside the territory of the Federal

4 Republic of Yugoslavia. Is that right, Dr. Strinovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, this Novi Sad that you mentioned reminds me of something that

7 Judge Kwon asked you about, whether you knew who was where when. Now, do

8 you know that in Novi Sad at the cemetery there, the bodies found in the

9 Danube were exclusively buried there, bodies flowing down the Danube and

10 floating down the Danube. Do you know how those bodies came to be in Novi

11 Sad and buried there?

12 A. As far as I know, these bodies that are exhumed in the Novi Sad

13 cemetery got to Novi Sad in the river Danube. They were found on the

14 banks of the Danube River, and after that, taken to Novi Sad where the

15 autopsies were conducted.

16 Q. Not only on the banks; they were floating along the river. And

17 when the citizens or the authorities see a body floating down the river,

18 then the police is called in, the border police, and they collect up those

19 bodies, or that body, and these persons were taken out of the waters of

20 the Danube and buried in Novi Sad. So there is no indication at all that

21 any of these victims fell victim on the territory of the Republic of

22 Serbia at all.

23 Do you have any indications that any of these casualties were

24 actually killed on the territory of the Republic of Serbia?

25 A. All I can do is repeat what I've already said. What I know about

Page 17958

1 this is that the bodies were found at the cemetery in Novi Sad. They were

2 exhumed there, and it is assumed that they were Croatian citizens and then

3 their bodies were transferred to Zagreb where the bodies were identified,

4 et cetera.

5 Q. All right, Mr. Strinovic. When were these bodies handed over to

6 you?

7 A. As I said on several occasions, this was already in 1991 -- no.

8 1999, I'm sorry, and then 2001, 2002, and they're still coming in. Those

9 bodies are still coming in.

10 Q. Of course. So already in 1999, the authorities, the Yugoslav

11 authorities, that is, handed over to you the bodies for which they --

12 which were buried as persons unknown at the cemetery on Novi Sad because

13 they were floating down the Danube and for whom it could have been assumed

14 that they were victims from the conflicts that took place in Eastern

15 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and so on. And that was within the

16 frameworks of cooperation that you said was ongoing from 1991. Is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. All right. As we've cleared up that matter and as it is the only

20 place found on the territory of Serbia, Novi Sad, and as it is not a

21 location where somebody lost their lives but only a place from which you

22 received the bodies, you therefore have no information that anybody could

23 have been killed on the territory of Serbia; right? Of the ones you

24 studied, the cases you studied and mentioned.

25 A. No. I have no information of that kind.

Page 17959












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Page 17960

1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now I'd like to proceed and move on to your

2 testimony.

3 You say in your statement, under point 4, that as a member of the

4 government commission, and I'm quoting you, I'm sure you'll recall this,

5 nothing malicious there. "As a member of the government commission, I was

6 coordinator for the medical team in the process of exhumation and

7 identification. That was the agreement that was made, that there should

8 be a physician, a specialist in forensic medicine present at each of these

9 exhumation cases. During the exhumations that took place in 1995, I

10 attended these on many occasions although the other physicians doing this

11 work supervised most of the exhumations."

12 Have I quoted you correctly? The paragraph starts, "As a member

13 of the government commission..."

14 A. Yes, I think you have.

15 Q. Thank you. And what emerges from this quotation, in fact, does it

16 emerge that you, Professor Strinovic, did not have any personal, if I can

17 put that way, personal, professional insight in the work of the teams for

18 the exhumations which you supervised?

19 A. Well --

20 Q. I'm talking about the criteria applied to your profession, on that

21 basis.

22 A. As I've already stated, the teams were selected from all over

23 Croatia, and they covered the whole of Croatia, and I was the person, just

24 the person who determined the groups to go to which localities, which

25 gravesites to conduct the exhumations, and then the processing and

Page 17961

1 investigation and the transport of the bodies for further investigation.

2 But they were individual teams made up of experts who actually did this

3 work. So I didn't supervise their work specifically at each site.

4 Q. That's what I understood you to say. So it was on behalf of the

5 government that you did all this work. You organised the work, you sent

6 the individual teams and individuals to the different localities, so you

7 were the man in charge of all this on behalf of the government; right?

8 I'm talking to the professional part of the work.

9 A. Yes, that is right. That is connected to the professional part,

10 the medical part, exhumation, identification, processing, that's it.

11 Q. Yes, of course. Now, tell me, does that mean, and I'm not quite

12 clear on this point, that each and every report on an exhumation would

13 have to be verified and certified by you? Does that mean that or not?

14 A. No. Every report on exhumation was submitted to the government

15 department headed by Mr. Grujic, who was present with the majority -- when

16 the majority of these exhumations took place.

17 Q. Yes. But he's not an expert in that field. But when I say

18 verified by you, I meant professional verification, in your professional

19 capacity. So it was not your duty to verify all the reports. That didn't

20 come under your duties, did it?

21 A. No, it did not.

22 Q. All right. So all these jobs that you're testifying about were

23 supervised by other physicians, actually, and as far as I understand you,

24 you would just from time to time visit the sites, visit some of the

25 locations. Would that be the standard practice that you applied? Would

Page 17962

1 that be what your activities entailed?

2 A. As I've already said, at the very beginning of our exhumations, I

3 was present, and I conducted some of them myself. From the medical

4 aspect, I was in charge of them. Later on, my colleagues took over this

5 role, and so my colleagues would go to perform the exhumations at the

6 different sites.

7 Q. Professor Strinovic, let's just understand each other here. I'm

8 not challenging your professional qualities at all. Quite the contrary, I

9 am saying that in view of your -- the direct work you did, and as far as I

10 understood, you would from time to time tour the localities. So I'm not

11 talking about the competent supervisor. I don't mean in the sense of your

12 professional qualities, I mean in the sense of the work you did when you

13 toured these localities. You were not there as a supervisor to control

14 the professional work of those teams. That's right, isn't it?

15 A. Yes, that's right. That is right, because usually there would be

16 one doctor with one assistant, and they were in charge of one site, one

17 locality, and covered the site from start to finish.

18 Q. Yes, I understand. So your opinion could not be - how shall I put

19 this? - accepted as some -- as competent supervisor to be accepted by one

20 and all, who would control that there and supervise it all, because you

21 didn't actually do the work yourself; right?

22 A. Yes. In most of the cases, that is right. I was not there

23 myself. My other colleagues conducted the work and were there.

24 Q. Right. That's why I said that I wasn't -- it wasn't a competent

25 supervisor whose opinion could be absolutely or relatively accepted as

Page 17963

1 right, not in view of your professional qualities, of course, but in view

2 of the activities you did and were linked to this. So we've cleared that

3 up.

4 Now, in paragraph 10, you say that in the process of your work,

5 forensic medical professionals were used and only in other cases were

6 pathologists used. That's what you say.

7 Now, can we agree that the work of a pathologist engaged in

8 exhumations is completely unacceptable or, rather, can we say that it is

9 incompetent?

10 JUDGE MAY: What does that mean? What does that mean?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have understood that this

12 is not clear to Mrs. Retzlaff either or to you, I see. That is why I

13 wanted Professor Strinovic to explain it to you, to explain the

14 difference.

15 JUDGE MAY: Let him have the report, first of all, which the

16 accused is quoting from. Let him have a copy of his report.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is the problem, Mr. May? I am

18 asking Professor Strinovic whether he can agree with me that the work of

19 pathologists at exhumations is not acceptable because they are not

20 forensic experts.

21 JUDGE MAY: There is no problem, Mr. Milosevic, but as you know

22 quite well, if you're asking a witness about his statement or his report,

23 the witness should have it in front of him. There may be things which you

24 misquote, though maybe not in this case.

25 Now, have you got a copy of that, Doctor? Right. Paragraph 10.

Page 17964

1 What about the -- the question is: Do pathologists have any role at all

2 in exhumations or can they play any part in that or not?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain once again the

4 procedure applied and how we in Croatia carried out the process of

5 exhumation and identification.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Professor Strinovic, let me first --

8 JUDGE MAY: Let him finish. Let him answer. Let him answer in

9 his own way and then you can ask some more questions.

10 Yes. Go on, Dr. Strinovic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the work attached to exhumation

12 and identification as a rule whenever possible was done by specialists in

13 forensic medicine because they were qualified and trained to do that.

14 Their work consists of establishing causes of death, death caused by

15 violence, identification in cases of natural disasters and so on. So

16 wherever possible, specialists in forensic medicine were used.

17 However, as there was a lot to do and there were so many cases to

18 address, when there were experienced pathologists who had earlier on in

19 their careers engaged in forensic cases, we have forensic medical experts,

20 but in some regions, as in Zadar, an experienced old pathologist who

21 specialises in pathology also is an expert for forensic medicine, so he's

22 also engaged by the courts as an expert. So in such cases, pathologists

23 were also used who assisted specialists in forensic medicine. So when

24 those were lacking and there was a lot to do, we had experienced

25 pathologists, they lent a helping hand and assisted the pathologists.

Page 17965












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Page 17966

1 JUDGE MAY: We'll continue this after the adjournment.

2 Dr. Strinovic, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes.

3 There is one matter I want to deal with, an administrative matter,

4 and it is this, to let the Court know that we will not be sitting in the

5 week after Easter. You can pass that on, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, to the

6 others in your team. We are producing a calendar. You should have it

7 next week, but meanwhile, you should know that in advance.

8 Yes. Twenty minutes.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Professor Strinovic, my question was very precise: Regarding a

14 pathologist and a specialist in forensic medicine are two quite different

15 specialties, are they not?

16 A. Yes, they are.

17 Q. So those two different specialists, an expert of forensic medicine

18 is qualified for exhumations and identifications, is he not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And a pathologist is not qualified for exhumations and

21 identifications, is he?

22 A. Well, let me tell you, there is no written rule or no law that

23 regulates matters in that way. But I repeat again that there are

24 situations and cases, and that was the situation in Croatia, that we did

25 have experienced people, people who during their long careers, did also

Page 17967

1 engage in forensic medicine, and that is why they were qualified enough to

2 be able to do that work.

3 Q. But tell me, please, in your team of physicians that carried out

4 the work which you supervised in the way we have established, how many of

5 them were not experts in forensic medicine?

6 A. Just now it's difficult for me to give you a precise figure, but

7 really, very few of them, a minimum number of them were of that profile.

8 Q. So you are claiming that pathologists are qualified to carry out

9 exhumations and identifications.

10 JUDGE MAY: The witness has given his explanation. We really

11 can't take the matter any further. If there is some point turning on it,

12 you can ask him, but it seems that we've covered it.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let me clarify then.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Is it true that establishing the cause of death and the identity

16 of a person is within the sphere of competence of forensic medicine?

17 A. Yes. As a principle, that is correct, but I have explained why

18 some pathologists are also capable of providing the answers to such

19 questions.

20 Q. In paragraph 21, you say that, "I, as the coordinator of the team

21 for identification, coordinated the work. However, I neither supervised

22 the work of the identification teams, nor did I examine their reports."

23 Does that confirm that you did not assess the quality of the work

24 of the doctors who engaged in the identification? Is that right?

25 Therefore -- yes, please.

Page 17968

1 A. My duty was to coordinate this work, and the work itself was done

2 by qualified experts who did not need supervision.

3 Q. But you had no direct participation in the identification, did

4 you?

5 A. I participated in the identification from 1991/1992, when that

6 kind of identification started, to the present day. I have been working

7 in constantly, continuously, in the team for identification.

8 Q. When I say "you," I mean your person involvement in the

9 identification. In how many identifications did you take part or, rather,

10 how many persons did you personally identify?

11 A. Again, I can't give you the exact number, but certainly the number

12 would be around 1.000 or something like that.

13 Q. Let us clear up another matter having to do with these expert

14 findings.

15 When you testified a moment ago, you repeatedly said that this was

16 such-and-such an event when death had occurred on such-and-such a day.

17 For instance, you say in October 1991, or January 1992, et cetera. How

18 were you able to establish when the victims that were exhumed were killed?

19 A. This is information obtained through the government office, and

20 they were obtained by processing data, but I did not directly participate

21 in the processing of those data. I received those data from the

22 government office, and they obtained them from a number of sources.

23 Q. So you built in those data obtained from the government office and

24 their sources into your report; is that right?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 17969

1 Q. Therefore, can we agree that it's not up to forensic medical

2 experts to be able to indicate the date and place where a person was

3 killed? You can report on the place where somebody was exhumed but not

4 where someone was killed. Is that right or not?

5 A. Yes, that is right, but to have a complete picture, we use the

6 data of the government office linked to the date of disappearance and our

7 data obtained through exhumation and subsequent processing.

8 Q. I understand, Dr. Strinovic. But, for instance, at the beginning

9 among the photographs you showed, you said this was a Serb who was killed

10 because his son was in the army. Was it your job to establish why someone

11 was killed? How do you know that he wasn't killed because he was a Serb?

12 Within the framework of your expertise, do you include justification for

13 the killing of a Serb by explaining that he was killed because his son was

14 in the army? Is that an expert forensic medical finding that you conveyed

15 here or were you just conveying an assumption of yours?

16 A. In this particular case, I just commented on the information

17 obtained from the government office, because this was a unique case of a

18 Serb killed in Vocin at the time. And according to the information

19 obtained at the time, the most probable reason for him being killed was

20 the one I gave.

21 Q. Yes. But -- I understand, but you are testifying about things

22 that are not part of your expertise. You're just conveying an assumption

23 reached by another body.

24 A. Yes. That is not directly linked to the cause of death or to my

25 work.

Page 17970

1 Q. That's exactly what I was saying, that you said something that has

2 nothing to do with your work.

3 Does the same apply to when you said that somebody died from the

4 consequences of mistreatment in the prison at Knin? How could you reach

5 that conclusion? Can you conclude that someone was dead because of

6 injuries he sustained? How can you say that they were consequences of

7 mistreatment in the prison at Knin?

8 A. In this case, I said that this was information we obtained from

9 the District Court in Zadar, and it was quoted from this report from the

10 court. This was not my own conclusion, nor do I have any evidence. It is

11 just what is written in the report of the District Court in Zadar. So

12 it's not my own information. I could not nor did I check it out.

13 Q. That is exactly what I wish to establish. In paragraph 22, you

14 say that the report on causes of death applies to cases processed at the

15 Institute for Forensic Medicine in Zagreb or cases that experts from the

16 institute processed in the field. So the report on the cause of death are

17 not a part of the report that you are referring to.

18 A. I don't know which report you're talking about, this report we

19 referred to today or this one linked to Zagreb with the table and the

20 exact figures as to the number of cases processed in Zagreb.

21 Q. I'm asking you about both.

22 A. In relation to Zagreb, I say that it is right. As for the rest,

23 all the findings were taken, including the findings of the pathologist in

24 Zadar who did the autopsies for Skabrinja, for instance, which was an area

25 that he covered.

Page 17971












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Page 17972

1 Q. Very well. That is quite sufficient. And having said that, is it

2 clear that the findings of the pathologist have not been expertly verified

3 and cannot be seriously considered with respect to causes of death and the

4 sources of injuries? Just say yes or no.

5 A. I can repeat that in this particular case when we're referring to

6 this pathologist, that they were fresh bodies. That is, shortly after

7 death they were autopsied. The cause of death was quite clear. The

8 protocols were clearly written, with clear descriptions, so it is easy to

9 see what the cause of death was.

10 As I was saying, this particular pathologist was a forensic expert

11 in the court in Zadar for many years, and he was a recognised expert in

12 that field.

13 Q. Tell me, Dr. Strinovic, as Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked you whether

14 you did exhumations of killed Serbs, and then she also said she wouldn't

15 go into that because it was not the case of the other side that they're

16 interested in, but you, nevertheless, answered yes, that you did.

17 So tell me, please, did you conduct autopsies of the officers and

18 soldiers of the JNA that were killed?

19 A. I can say yes, and this was in 1991. I think it was sometime in

20 October 1991 when some soldiers in the barracks in Bjelovar were killed,

21 some 20 persons, due to an explosion in the barracks, and both officers

22 and soldiers were killed, of the former JNA. And those cases were

23 processed in Zagreb, and immediately after that, they were handed over to

24 the military authorities in Zagreb.

25 Q. Very well. But tell me, can you tell us something about the

Page 17973

1 injuries found on their bodies and what kind of weapons were used to

2 provoke those injuries?

3 A. I have not prepared myself to report on these cases that you're

4 asking me about, but to the best of my recollection when we're talking

5 about the Bjelovar barracks, there was a large explosion which caused the

6 death of a large number of people. These were injuries caused by

7 explosive devices. That's all I can say at the moment.

8 Q. Very well, then. As a forensic doctor, did you do autopsies of

9 killed Serbs, and how many, where, and when?

10 A. May I just list some cases in which we did process killed Serbs.

11 This was in 1991. Snjegovic, 13 persons, Vukovar Novo Grobija [phoen]

12 where in large grave there are more than 900 persons. Among them were

13 about 70 Serbs that were also processed. Then there is the Paulin Dvor or

14 Zvanusa where 18 bodies were found. Pakracka Poljana, 19 bodies found.

15 The Medacki Dzep, or pocket, 11 bodies that were processed. Karlovac, I

16 think at the bridge, 13 persons who were killed and processed in Zagreb.

17 And after 1995, at the Knin cemetery 300 persons were exhumed, 300 of Serb

18 ethnicity; in Gracac, 154; in Korenica, 27. Those persons were exhumed,

19 processed. And the last group I referred to, consisting of 481 persons,

20 Knin, Gracac, and Korenica, a they were processed. The process of

21 identification is ongoing. 112 persons have been identified from Knin,

22 but the process continues. Relatives are being invited to come from

23 Croatia and Serbia to identify their family members.

24 And the Gracac gravesite has been processed completely. We are

25 now collecting additional information and albums are being prepared which

Page 17974

1 are being sent to where relatives of the missing persons are residing. So

2 we're preparing the identification. The same applies to Korenica.

3 So classical identification is applied as in all other cases, but

4 also DNA identification is done when the relatives are not sure or when

5 the information is unclear, then we use DNA analysis also.

6 So this process of identification of Serbs in Croatia is

7 continuing. It is slow, as applies to identification in general. We have

8 more than 500 bodies at Mirogoj, the cemetery at Zagreb, persons killed

9 ever since 1991. They have not yet been identified. We are trying to

10 establish their identity, but it is a slow process. And the same applies

11 to these cases that I'm referring to now, that is, Croatian citizens of

12 Serb ethnicity whose bodies have been exhumed at these cemeteries that I

13 have listed and for whom the process of identification is ongoing, and we

14 hope we will be able to deal with the problem successfully soon.

15 Q. Talking about the autopsies of killed Serbs, can you say anything

16 very briefly about the injuries found on their bodies and the objects with

17 which those injuries were inflicted?

18 A. Well, I could give you precise data after a detailed processing or

19 written traces of the same, but what I can say is that they were all types

20 of injuries, mostly gunshot wounds and wounds caused by explosives. As to

21 the other instruments that were used, it's difficult for me to talk about

22 them without any prepared material, written documents. So I can't be more

23 precise on that.

24 Q. What other forms of injuries and instruments used?

25 A. So after gunshot wounds and explosion wounds, which are the most

Page 17975

1 numerous, there were injuries of the type, for example, of stabs, stabbing

2 wounds, cuts by knives, blunt objects, and so on.

3 Q. So those were the injuries that did not result as the effects of

4 modern weaponry; right?

5 A. Yes, that would be it.

6 Q. Is that it, Dr. Strinovic?

7 A. Well, I can't really comment. They are the causes of death that I

8 describe.

9 Q. All right. And did you carry out the autopsy of soldier Marko

10 Utrzan who had been captured as a JNA member, was in a camp in Zagreb and

11 in mid 1991 he was killed by a killer whose identity is known and the

12 bodily remains were handed over to the family members afterwards?

13 A. I couldn't answer that question.

14 Q. All right. You can't answer that. Fine. Now, did you carry out

15 the autopsy or were present at the autopsy of the Zec family which was

16 killed at the beginning of the war in Zagreb? And, for example -- do you

17 know anything about them, let me ask you first. The Zec family killed in

18 Zagreb. Did you carry out the autopsy?

19 A. I do know about the Zec case. I do know that the father was

20 killed first, and after that, the mother and daughter were killed. This

21 happened in Zagreb and an autopsy was conducted. I think that they were

22 gunshot wounds but I can't give you any details.

23 Q. Tell me, please, were they too, the family members of the Zec

24 family, the Serbs who were killed in Zagreb, are they included in your

25 report as being victims, as is defined here, of the Chetnik aggression or

Page 17976

1 victims of the homeland war?

2 A. They are described in the report on autopsies conducted in Zagreb,

3 in the overall number, the total number of victims.

4 Q. As you supplied us with facts and figures there, and this is not

5 only a forensic finding but others too, that -- other information that you

6 got from other organs, do you know that the perpetrator of that crime was

7 identified, the killer of the Zec family, that he is a known perpetrator?

8 A. I know that there was a court trial in Zagreb, that some persons

9 were accused and charged with the killing. How many, I don't know. I do

10 know that court proceedings took place. Now, who was arrested and so on,

11 I don't know.

12 Q. I'm sure you know that they were set free as well, that they were

13 -- the judgement was that they were not guilty and that one of those

14 individuals received a medal as well.

15 JUDGE MAY: I think we're going a very long way from the witness's

16 evidence. Yes, let's move on.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The person was acquitted. Yes,

18 Mr. May.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You were asked by Mrs. Retzlaff about the difference in the number

21 of persons killed, the difference between 11.834 persons, which is the

22 figure in the report pertaining to the total number of persons killed

23 during the war, and it is in Colonel Grujic's report, and the 5.140 whom

24 you mention. I did not understand your answer fully on that score and the

25 difference and why that difference. I think they were soldiers, so that

Page 17977












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Page 17978

1 you did not carry out any forensic medical analysis. Is that right? Was

2 that the reason?

3 A. As I've already said, it was a large number of cases who, at the

4 beginning of the war when the number of victims was greatest, that all

5 those persons were not taken to the morgues where morgues existed. This

6 was not possible. And as they were mostly military personnel who had died

7 on the battlefield, procedure was stepped up and those persons were not

8 taken to the morgues for autopsy. There was a speedy process of

9 identification and determining the cause of death, and those persons were

10 buried.

11 Q. And how many of those 5.140 killed were soldiers? Can you tell me

12 that, please?

13 A. Well, I don't have the information here, so I can't answer that

14 question, but there was a certain number. How many exactly, I can't say.

15 Q. Tell me then, please, with this figure of 11.834 persons and then

16 this other figure of 5.140 persons killed, which is included in the 11.834

17 figure, how many of those were Serbs who were killed?

18 A. I don't have the exact figures, but as far as I know, this

19 includes the Serbs from the Vukovar new cemetery.

20 As for the other cases, I can't really say. So about 70 persons

21 are linked to the Vukovar new cemetery or Novo Grobija, and I can't tell

22 you about the others.

23 Q. All right. Dr. Strinovic, I assume you know the figure about

24 7.000 Serbs killed. Does that mean that these figures of yours only

25 include those who would represent just 1 per cent of the Serbs killed,

Page 17979

1 that just 1 per cent of the Serbs killed are contained in your figures?

2 How do you explain that?

3 JUDGE MAY: That presupposes that the figure of 7.000 of Serbs

4 killed has been accepted. We've been over this. It includes, as far as I

5 recollect, the entire period up to 1995 and beyond.

6 But, Dr. Strinovic, I don't think you can really answer this

7 question. Do you know about how many Serbs there were killed?

8 A. I don't have the figures about the exact number of Serbs killed --

9 JUDGE MAY: Move on, Mr. Milosevic.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in Croatia.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. All right, Mr. Strinovic. You mentioned that you were directly

13 involved in the autopsy of the soldiers killed and their officers, the JNA

14 ones, in the Bjelovar barracks. Do you happen to remember their number

15 and where their bodies were buried?

16 A. I can't remember the exact number at the moment. I think there

17 are about 20 of them. And as far as I recall, all the bodies, after being

18 processed, were handed over to the military authorities in Zagreb and were

19 transferred to the former military hospital. It was the former JNA that

20 was still there.

21 Q. Well, I'm asking you that because up until the present day, the

22 Croatian authorities have not given the body of soldier Savic from the

23 Orasje area over. Do you know anything about that? They haven't handed

24 the body over yet.

25 A. All I know is that they were bodies that were seriously damaged,

Page 17980

1 and identification was impossible, so we put "NN", "Victim Unknown," next

2 to some of the bodies. That's what I can tell you.

3 Q. All right. And in Bjelovar and other places in Croatia, many

4 Serbs were killed. For example, at Kirsch's farm, there were a large

5 number of Serbs killed. Some of those Serbs were autopsied at your

6 institute in Zagreb, such as the body of Bosko Radonjic, for example, from

7 the Babinac Bijelovar village.

8 So my question for you is this: Can you tell me whether it is

9 possible for the photographs of that particular autopsy to be sent in?

10 Because from what I can see, some parts of those -- of the photographs

11 that your institute sent to the International Red Cross Committee have

12 been cut with scissors, parts cut off. And the photographing itself was

13 done in a special way to cover up certain injuries to the body of Bosko

14 Radonjic, for example. So can we obtain from you --

15 JUDGE MAY: Wait a minute. Have you any idea about what the

16 accused is talking? No.

17 No. Mr. Milosevic, this kind of detail is not for the witness,

18 even if true. These sound like your suggestions.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. All right. And this is a question for the witness: Can we obtain

21 the findings, photographs, and information relating, as I said, to this

22 individual who was autopsied at your Zagreb institute so that we have a

23 complete set of documents available?

24 A. For each individual for which an autopsy was carried out at the

25 institute in Zagreb, a court order can be issued for all the documents to

Page 17981

1 be handed over.

2 Q. All right, Doctor. In view of the fact that you yourself were the

3 coordinator of the medical part of the exhumation and identification

4 process, and as you yourself said you appointed the teams for that job,

5 what were the criteria you used for setting up the commissions of

6 physicians and others to do this job?

7 A. These were experts, that is to say, people who had practical

8 experience in forensic medicine or were highly experienced pathologists

9 and people who, in our opinion, were well able to do the job, to conduct

10 the exhumations and to conduct the autopsies later on. So that all the

11 experienced forensic medical experts available in Croatia were put at our

12 disposal and those were the people who did the job.

13 Q. And were there any work methodology -- was there any work

14 methodology that was prescribed that all the teams had to adhere to, or

15 did each physician work to the best of his own ability and did what he

16 thought best in the given -- under the given circumstances?

17 A. As the work evolved - I'm talking about the first exhumations - so

18 the experts became better trained. And quite certainly those who went on

19 location for the first time, they were told what their duties were, how

20 the work was to be done, and the essential points to be borne in mind when

21 conducting an exhumation. And that was also true when it came to data

22 processing or the autopsies themselves and everything else involved.

23 Q. Can I then conclude, Dr. Strinovic, that all their findings and

24 opinions were accepted by you, that you accepted all their findings and

25 opinions?

Page 17982

1 A. As a rule, I can read out the opinions stated and the findings and

2 comment, but each person was in -- responsible for their own opinions and

3 their findings. So in each case, they were authorised court experts, well

4 able to do their job.

5 Q. As the team coordinator, did you have insight into or, rather,

6 have occasion to see reports concerning the autopsies of Serbs killed in

7 Paulin Dvor whose bodies in 1997 were transferred from that place to the

8 environs of Gospic where investigators of the other side over there found

9 them in 2001 in cabbage barrels, barrels used to store cabbage?

10 A. Yes, I have been informed about those cases. They were at the

11 institute in Zagreb which is where the autopsies were conducted. It was a

12 highly complex procedure for identification. As I say, the bodies were

13 processed by our institute's experts.

14 Q. You talk of pathologists. You said that the pathologists

15 conducted the processing of the victims of the war at the beginning, the

16 first victims, and that that's when you used pathologists. From what I

17 can see of the autopsy findings, they also worked towards the end of the

18 war, such as Anto Blazanovic, in 1998 in Berak, Drinko Balicevic, and

19 other persons. How do you explain that?

20 A. These were all individuals who had, over a long period of time,

21 worked in conducting exhumations and, some of them, identifications, so

22 that they had gained sufficient experience over all those years to be able

23 to do the jobs themselves, which is why they did the job.

24 Q. But they are not forensic medical experts; right?

25 A. Dr. Blazanovic is now just about to take his forensic medical

Page 17983












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Page 17984

1 examination, and the other doctor, which attended exhumations only as a

2 rule, he worked on that for four or five years.

3 Q. Now, from your -- the aspects of you as a professional: Is it

4 possible to carry out the identification of bodily remains or to assume

5 that there were bodies there in one locality, whereas in the -- on the

6 particular site where it is assumed the bodies lay, no human remains were

7 actually found? Is that possible?

8 A. If there is any information that a gravesite existed, and if we

9 establish that there was something on that site, that is to say that the

10 soil had been moved, buried and uncovered, then there is -- we can have

11 our suspicions and doubts. But if there are absolutely no bodily remains,

12 no remains of bones or anything else, then it would be difficult to say

13 that with certainty.

14 Q. All right. Tell me then, how come within the investigation team

15 of the District Court in Karlovac, for example, you assumed with your

16 investigating team that on location number 6 at a place called Novo Selo,

17 number 82, there were the body remains of Ivan and Marjia Katic, and you

18 found not one single human bodily part or part of their clothing on that

19 particular site?

20 Let me remind you: This arbitrary observation is to be found in

21 the minutes and records of the District Court in Karlovac, County Court in

22 Karlovac. 7726. The date is the 1996, the 2nd and 5th of June, in fact,

23 1996. Reports dating to that time.

24 JUDGE MAY: Before the witness is required to answer that sort of

25 detail, can you assist as to this particular investigation?

Page 17985

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise but I did not understand

2 the question fully. What do you wish me to explain?

3 JUDGE MAY: He is asking you about an investigation team of the

4 District Court in Karlovac, of a place called Novo Selo, and he mentions a

5 couple. Do you know anything about that? No.

6 No, Mr. Milosevic, the witness can't deal with that.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Well, you took part in the matter, in the team. You were in the

9 expert team set up by the District or County Court of Karlovac. Or

10 perhaps you did not. Maybe my information is incorrect. Did you or not?

11 A. I don't know which case you're referring to. I'd have to see the

12 papers to see what you're talking about and then perhaps I could give you

13 more information. Because I don't have the documents, I don't know who

14 was there or who did what.

15 Q. All right. Do you remember - and if so, how do you explain the

16 fact - I say that papers exist, documents exist, and I give you the number

17 of the court file in the County Court in Karlovac. The date was 1996, and

18 I quoted the exact date.

19 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. Why don't you give the witness

20 whatever paper you have, and it may be that he will be able to assist you.

21 But it's no good reeling off a lot of numbers and dates in the hope that

22 he's going to remember in some way. You've got the court file. Give it

23 to him and then he can have a look at it and may be able to assist you.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking the witness whether he

25 knows anything about it. He says he doesn't. I asked him whether it is

Page 17986

1 possible to establish, without finding any remains of tissue belonging to

2 a human, that people were killed on that spot or had been buried on that

3 spot. So I asked him --

4 JUDGE MAY: Well, how can he possibly answer completely out of the

5 blue without any documentation, without any reference? He will have done

6 a great number of these cases. It's simply not fair to reel off, as I

7 say, all these statistics and then imagine that he can remember off the

8 top of his head. If you have got any document which supports what you

9 say, give it to the witness and let him look at it. Otherwise, we're just

10 wasting our time.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And do you remember, as you don't

12 remember this, I assume that the witness had the documents that he

13 personally had worked on, Mr. May, as he's testifying about some documents

14 that he did not work on at all. But I suppose that those he personally

15 was involved in that he would have. If my assumption is wrong, then

16 certainly he doesn't have to answer my question.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. How do you explain the fact that you came to the conclusion - and

19 this is in the report in the District Court in Karlovac --

20 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... it's absolutely

21 pointless. If you've got the report there, in which case, put it in front

22 of him. Otherwise, he doesn't remember and he can't help you. Now,

23 either you put a document to him or we move on.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may I ask him a question

25 about another person without you saying in advance that he doesn't know

Page 17987

1 that? He processed many individuals. For example, Cindric Marko, born in

2 1926, in Slunj. It says "probably gunshot wound to the head." And before

3 that, you describe that the body was disintegrating, that only some bones

4 and some tissue was found and no head. I'm quoting from your report.

5 Does that mean that your opinion is based on a statement or an assumption

6 or was there some particular need? Is it possible --

7 JUDGE MAY: No. We're not going on in this way. What are you

8 referring to? What document are you referring to?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the report of the

10 District Court in Karlovac, KRI number 227 dated 1996.

11 JUDGE MAY: Put it to the witness. Put it in front of him so he

12 can see it.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have that document with me.

14 I assumed that the witness could remember it. But that report is in

15 Croatia, in their court in Karlovac, and I can get hold of a copy.

16 So the question is if he cannot remember this particular case, but

17 I didn't hear him say that.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Is it possible then -- please give me your expert opinion. Is it

21 possible to establish the injury to a part of the body when that port of

22 the body was not seen by the person performing the autopsy? And what

23 would be your comment about doctors acting in that way who describe an

24 injury of a part of a body that they hadn't seen, as in this case the

25 injury to the head and the head is missing?

Page 17988

1 A. As a rule, an expert in forensic medicine would have to see

2 something to be able to reach his conclusion. I don't know anything about

3 this specific case, so it's difficult for me to comment. But as a rule,

4 there's either something visible or there's something suspect but again

5 visible, or there's just a story which cannot lead to any conclusion

6 regarding cause of death.

7 Q. Very well. Let me not torment you by insisting on this question.

8 Let me move on.

9 Tell me, Doctor, parts of fragments of mines and explosives, do

10 they remain in the body for some time or do they penetrate the body and

11 cannot be found during autopsy?

12 So the question is: Do they stay in the body for some time or do

13 they go right through the body and cannot be found? You have a lot of

14 experience. Would you tell me on the basis of your experience.

15 A. That certainly depends on a number of factors. For instance, the

16 strength of the charge or the power of the explosive device. I can just

17 say one thing; that those fragments or pieces of a shell or a bomb is

18 something that it is very difficult to find during autopsies. But during

19 the last three or four years, the bodies are X-rayed, put through an

20 X-ray, and then in quite a large number of cases we can find fragments,

21 shrapnel, in the body. So what cannot be seen normally can be seen on the

22 X-ray. Which cannot be seen by the naked eye can be seen upon X-raying.

23 So it is difficult to give you a precise answer whether those

24 fragments of explosive devices pass through the body or stay in the body,

25 because it depends on a number of factors and there is not a single answer

Page 17989

1 that can be given to that question.

2 Q. As far as I have been seen as being able to see in literature on

3 this subject, mostly they stay in the body and can be found. Now you said

4 that you found them on a large number of bodies by X-raying. You found

5 these remnants of mines and explosive devices. Isn't that so? But if you

6 have a body, because of the time that has elapsed since the time of death,

7 the tissue has disintegrated and you see only bones, and it was a victim

8 of explosion, and if that body is buried in a plastic bag or a coffin, is

9 it realistic to expect shrapnels to be found in the bones of the victim or

10 in the clothing or at the bottom of the bag or the coffin? Is that a

11 logical assumption?

12 A. That again depends on a number of elements. When the body was put

13 in the bag; was it immediately after death or later? And it is to be

14 expected if certain metal fragments or shrapnels were in the body after

15 death and afterwards the body was put in the bag, then naturally those

16 metal parts, that do not disappear, should be found where they were

17 lodged, in the bag or in the bones or in the body.

18 Q. Do you know that during exhumations of bodies in Skabrnja carried

19 out, as I noted, on the 6th of June by the District Court in Zadar when a

20 record was taken, number 436/96, that not in a single case were shrapnels

21 found in the body, in the clothing, or in the plastic bag or in the

22 coffin, yet the pathologists claim that they were victims of mines and

23 explosives. Is that possible? So not in a single case were those

24 remnants found, and yet this conclusion was drawn that they were the

25 victims of explosions.

Page 17990

1 A. In Skabrnja, the persons who were exhumed on the 6th of June,

2 1996, the cause of death was established to be explosive, and only in a

3 few cases, that is in four cases.

4 Q. Yes, but no shrapnels were found in any single case?

5 A. Why not -- why the fragments were not found, possibly they were

6 such small fragments that they were not visible. And in Zadar they were

7 not X-rayed, so it is quite possible for people to be killed by

8 explosions, yet the fragments are not found as a result of autopsy.

9 Q. How, then, can you come to the conclusion that that was the cause

10 of death? And they were exhumed in 1996. How, then, in your professional

11 opinion, could such a conclusion be reached?

12 A. The conclusion is reached on the basis of damage to the clothing

13 and damage to the tissue and bones. And those bodies were still

14 relatively well preserved at the time of autopsy, and this can be seen

15 from the autopsy reports here in the court.

16 Q. But do you allow, Dr. Strinovic, for the possibility that these

17 are omissions made during autopsies or, alternatively, that those people

18 did not die in the way described? For example, Mirko Kardum, born 1919.

19 The conclusion is that in the chest and stomach he suffered penetrating

20 shrapnel wounds. And during the autopsy, none of that was found.

21 A. Possibly that person -- the person doing the autopsy saw damage to

22 the tissue and bones in that area and yet the shrapnel simply was not

23 found.

24 Q. Very well, Doctor. On that occasion in Skabrnja, 27 persons were

25 exhumed and identified. The bodies were skeletonised, and the person who

Page 17991

1 did the autopsy says that the cause of death was haemorrhagic shock.

2 So my question to you is: Is this method of reaching conclusions

3 acceptable from the point of view of forensic medicine? Just tell me yes

4 or no. The bodies were in skeleton form. The person said the cause of

5 death was haemorrhagic shock. My question is: Is such a methodology

6 acceptable from the point of view of forensic medicine?

7 A. It is not acceptable. But the cause of death is either gunshot

8 wounds or explosives which probably caused the haemorrhagic shock. And

9 what is stated as the cause of death is either gunshot or explosive

10 injuries and the like.

11 Q. But here it says the cause of death is haemorrhagic shock. Isn't

12 that so?

13 A. Yes. But also the injuries which provoked the shock are

14 mentioned.

15 Q. So is this acceptable from the point of view of forensic medicine,

16 that a body that is skeletonised can be said to have -- to have the cause

17 of death established in this way?

18 A. No. I would never have written it down in this way.

19 Q. Thank you. And during the autopsy of Zeljko Rogoljic, upon

20 instructions of the District Court in Osijek - and he was a member of the

21 National Guards - a specialist in forensic medicine says the cause of

22 death was gunshot wounds in the chest and stomach. And then in the

23 autopsy report it says that by external examination it was established

24 that the face and the base of the skull were badly damaged as a result of

25 explosive and fragmentation of projectiles.

Page 17992

1 Tell me whether this is an acceptable conclusion and on the basis

2 of these and similar cases, would it be necessary to have direct insight

3 into the work of pathologists and specialists in forensic medicine who

4 took part in the processing of these data which you coordinated?

5 A. It is very hard for me to comment on this example. Now, why it

6 was written in this way, I don't know why this cause of death was stated.

7 Now, whether a kind of revision is required of these findings again is

8 something I can't say.

9 Q. I just gave you a few examples to the extent to which I have

10 access to information and comments which find that these are quite

11 unacceptable from the point of experts in forensic medicine. Wouldn't you

12 think that some supervision is required to establish which part of this is

13 true and which is not?

14 A. This is something that could certainly be done.

15 Q. Thank you. Talking about Lovas, this side opposite claims that

16 people were killed in Lovas by being forced to go into a minefield. We

17 heard several allegations to that effect, that people were forced into a

18 minefield and were killed there. That is how people were killed,

19 murdered.

20 Tell me, Dr. Strinovic, is it true that according to your own

21 results, and I have this table of yours, I don't need to show it to you

22 because you're certainly familiar with it, according to your results, only

23 one person out of those in Lovas was killed as a result of the effect of

24 an explosive device. Those are your results, aren't they?

25 JUDGE MAY: Before you answer, you must have the document in front

Page 17993

1 of you to which I take it the accused is referring. It's tab 36 in our

2 document, in the binder.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have this table. It is

4 attached to the statement --

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. This witness should have it.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- of Mr. Strinovic.

7 JUDGE MAY: You can deal with the question.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've put the question. And as far

9 as I have been able to understand, he answered it.

10 As you know, Mr. May --

11 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer. Do stop talking,

12 Mr. Milosevic, all the time. Let the witness answer.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As is visible on this table, there

14 were eight persons who were killed through gunshot wounds, one a

15 combination of gunshot and explosive, and one person probably as the

16 result of an explosion. So that was the question: Why so few explosive

17 injuries?

18 What I heard, and I heard it from the government office, that is

19 from information obtained from that office, was that those persons were

20 forced into a minefield, that they didn't go into the minefield and were

21 killed because of that. That is the information I received from the

22 government office. That is what I was told.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Very well, Doctor. Now we have different statements. According

25 to one set, they were killed in a minefield, yet you found that only one

Page 17994

1 person was killed as a result of the effect of an explosive device. And

2 now the explanation is that they were killed because they didn't want to

3 go into the minefield. Very well.

4 JUDGE MAY: It's not for the witness to comment on the evidence.

5 Yes.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] His evidence shows that only one

7 person was killed as a result of an explosive device, and that is quite

8 sufficient.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Let me go on to ask you, please, I have here a doctoral thesis by

11 a colleague of yours, Juha Rainino, a Finn, and I'll quote just one

12 sentence, and then let me ask you whether you as a professional agree with

13 him, and you answer with a yes or no and everything will be fine. Who

14 claims that in the case of mass graves, the cause of death most frequently

15 cannot be established, and in most cases these are mere manipulations. I

16 will quote him in the original.

17 [In English] [Previous translation continues]... "occasion of

18 victims from mass graves, the definition of cause of death often remains

19 speculative or is even impossible."

20 [Interpretation] So just tell me if you agree with this

21 professional opinion by this Finnish colleague of yours or do you consider

22 it not to be correct?

23 A. Well, I don't agree with him fully, and I can tell you why. Every

24 grave is separate. It depends how long the bodies were in the grave. If

25 the bodies were in the mass grave for a short space of time, then it is --

Page 17995

1 you have far greater probability of ascertaining the cause of death. If

2 the bodies had been in the mass grave for a longer period of time, then

3 this -- the circumstances change and it makes it more difficult, depending

4 on how well the bodies have been preserved. The bodies may be well

5 preserved, they can be saponificated, they can be skeletonised, which will

6 make the situation different.

7 So depending on the particular mass grave one is studying, there

8 was post-mortal damage in any way, where the traces were damaged too, it

9 is difficult. So it differs from one mass grave to another.

10 In certain cases, we will be able to ascertain the cause of death

11 in many cases, for many of the bodies. In another instance, in another

12 grave, this will be more limited.

13 So the essential point is that the forensic medical expert

14 concentrate his efforts on the elements that exist and the causes that are

15 clear to him and which are probable or not.

16 Q. All right, Doctor. Let's move on from this professional area and

17 field, your assessments and Professor Juha Rainino's assessments. You

18 talk about mass graves. You mention Vukovar in that context. Tell me,

19 please, after so many years that have gone by, have you managed to

20 establish the national or ethnic structure of the persons who were dug up

21 in all the different locations around Vukovar?

22 A. According to the data available at the government department for

23 persons missing from Vukovar, at the Vukovar grave the following were

24 exhumed: 990 persons. Of that number, about -- as far as I know, about

25 70 were ethnic Serbs. I don't have any other facts and figures about

Page 17996

1 that.

2 Q. So that's all you have at your disposal, all that your office has

3 and your medical service working within that department; is that right?

4 That's all you have?

5 A. As far as Vukovar is concerned, yes, that's right. That's all we

6 have.

7 Q. Whenever you mentioned in your testimony in the course of today

8 the term "shot," as far as I understand it, you were able to establish

9 that these persons had been actually killed by gunshot wounds; right?

10 A. Yes, that's right. They are gunshot wounds caused by firearms.

11 That's right.

12 Q. So when you use the term "shot," it implies shot by firearms under

13 any circumstances - in battles, on the basis of a stray bullet, even - and

14 he would be classified with this cause of death being a gunshot wound, an

15 entry/exit wound, a gunshot wound; is that right?

16 A. Well, as far as it was possible for me to do, I used the term

17 "gunshot wound" mostly, I think.

18 Q. I'm asking you because very often in the course of today's

19 testimony - you can look at the tape - you used the expression

20 "strijeljani," or shot, executed, which in the Croatian language, in the

21 Serbian language, "executed" implying the liquidation of persons by use of

22 firearms, and it has this special separate connotation. So that's not

23 what you're talking about, you're just talking about gunshot wounds; is

24 that right?

25 A. Yes, gunshot wounds.

Page 17997

1 Q. Tell me now, please, because I'm not quite clear on this even when

2 it comes to the number, the figure involved. Talking about Ovcara, you

3 say that about 200 persons were killed there; is that right?

4 A. The exact figure is 200. Two hundred bodies found at Ovcara.

5 Q. Exactly 200?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And is it true that of that 200, 86 of them, which would make it

8 some 40 per cent, had previous injuries or were wounded and injured

9 previously?

10 A. Yes. That was visible from the protocol and reports we received

11 from the international team that conducted the processing. And it was

12 established that those persons had been injured or wounded previously in

13 one way or another.

14 Q. And did you establish -- were you able to establish that they were

15 hospitalised patients, patients in hospital, or persons who had perhaps

16 received some previous wounds or injuries in some form of firing that had

17 taken place beforehand, not in hospital, not persons who were

18 hospitalised? How were you able or how was it able to make this

19 difference, to differentiate or make this kind of identification?

20 A. In the case of Ovcara, the number was 86, I think, where it was

21 established that they had been injured. And with the vast majority, there

22 were visible signs of medical treatment, either amputations or the

23 introduction of certain wires or rods during operations. So with these

24 people, we found plaster casts, we found bandages and other indicators

25 which led us to believe that they were persons who were treated medically,

Page 17998

1 surgically, in a hospital.

2 Q. To go back to Lovas for a moment and to see whether there has been

3 any misunderstanding. You claim that 25 individuals were shot. When you

4 say "shot," I assume you don't mean executed and liquidated but persons

5 for whom the cause of death was gunshot wound.

6 A. Yes. I say "gunshot wound." "Cause of death: Gunshot injury."

7 Q. And what about Skabrnja? You also say 40 persons shot. You mean

8 gunshot injuries; right?

9 A. Yes. The same applies to all the cases.

10 Q. All right. Fine. Let me just check and take a look at my notes.

11 I have jotted down here some of your observations. For example,

12 Bacin, and I've made a note that you refer to 58 casualties there and that

13 with 28, which is a large number, the cause of death was not established,

14 it was not possible to establish the cause of death. How was that

15 possible?

16 A. Well, I explained that during my testimony when I said it was a

17 gravesite where the bodies had been mixed up and greatly damaged, and

18 quite simply, we were not able to establish the cause of death.

19 Q. This was conducted in 1997; right?

20 A. Yes. On the spot right by the gravesite.

21 Q. Very well. Fine. You also spoke about the Vuckovici where two

22 individuals were found. It was either Vukovici or Vuckovici.

23 A. I think it was Vukovici, the name of the place.

24 Q. You spoke about that this morning. Now, my question is as

25 follows: You say there were two persons, cause of death firearms, gunshot

Page 17999

1 wounds. And you say that it is assumed that there were seven dead bodies,

2 in fact. So what do you -- what does that actually mean? What does this

3 assumption mean that there were seven if only two were found?

4 A. It is the Vukovici locality. And at that spot, two bodies were

5 found. They were identified, and they were persons that were found in

6 another place.

7 As to seven individuals, it is assumed that they were killed in

8 the house and that their remains were found on the burning site, plus the

9 two individuals who had succumbed to gunshot wounds, they were found

10 elsewhere. Everything in Vukovici.

11 Q. But you spoke about two persons who were hanged, as far as I

12 understood.

13 A. Yes, two brothers. So we have two persons found in one location,

14 and they died from gunshot wounds. It is assumed that there were seven

15 other persons on the ground, burnt in a house, and another locality once

16 again in Vukovici, two brothers who were found hanged.

17 Q. When were they found?

18 A. The 13th of August, 1996, was when the exhumations took place.

19 Q. How could you establish that in 1996? You say they were killed in

20 1991. So how come that the 1996 exhumation could have established that

21 these two had been hanged?

22 A. The autopsy was carried out on the spot pursuant to a court order

23 by the County Court in Zadar, and the findings of the person conducting

24 the autopsies are listed. It says that one of the brothers, Ivan Loncar,

25 was found on the 24th of October, 1991. He was found hanged, and it was

Page 18000

1 his son Marko who found him.

2 Q. Do you mean his son hanged him?

3 A. No. He was found by his son. And this applies to the second one

4 too.

5 Q. So you're not giving us the forensic medical finding here. What

6 you're giving us is a piece of information which was received by the

7 investigating organs of Croatia, and in this case, the investigating

8 organs of the county of Zadar; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So once again, this isn't a medical forensic finding, it is a

11 police report.

12 A. The physician conducting the autopsy says that he found no traces

13 of mechanical injury but that he has this piece of information about the

14 hanging.

15 Q. That piece of information was a police report; right?

16 A. Well, yes.

17 Q. Now, the next place you mentioned was Saborsko, where 27 bodily

18 remains were found. That is to say the remains of 27 persons. Only two

19 of these individuals lost their lives as a result of a gunshot wound.

20 Once again, you use the term "shot," executed, but we now know, according

21 to your explanations, what that means. It means they succumbed to gunshot

22 wounds.

23 Now, with the other 15, the cause of death was not established.

24 Is that right?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 18001

1 Q. And how many bodily remains were actually found? For how many

2 individuals?

3 A. Twenty-seven.

4 Q. On what grounds were you able to establish the cause of death, the

5 circumstances of death, et cetera?

6 A. Are there any medical and court findings as to the cause of death?

7 A. We have the cause of death for the ones I mentioned. One gunshot

8 wound, five traumas, and six burnings. So we have the autopsy results.

9 Q. Of those six persons burnt, they are persons who died in a fire;

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So if these persons died in a fire, did they die in a fire when

13 during the conflict houses were set on fire or did someone place those

14 individuals on a fire to burn them to death?

15 A. Well, I don't know that. All I can say is that these individuals

16 or, rather, the bodies, the bodily remains, were found of people who had

17 been burnt.

18 JUDGE MAY: We're going to come to the adjournment, the time for,

19 but are you going to be very much longer? Do you want very much longer

20 with this witness?

21 THE ACCUSED: No. No, Mr. May. Just a short time.

22 JUDGE MAY: We'll go on.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm trying to establish, Mr. May -

24 how shall I put this? - the validity of these reports, because we cleared

25 up at the beginning that of the locations mentioned, only one of them is

Page 18002

1 on the territory of Yugoslavia, and that was the case of bodies found

2 floating down the Danube and were then pulled out and buried there because

3 we couldn't have left them floating down the Danube, could we? So these

4 are all things that have nothing to do with either Serbia or myself, but I

5 wish to clear up these points fully.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. From the forensic medical aspects, because you don't know how they

8 were burnt, nonetheless, you drew the conclusion from the other side, if I

9 can put it that way, that somebody who was immobile was burnt in a house,

10 a female was burnt in the house because on the spot where the body was

11 supposed to -- where the bed was supposed to have been, some charred bone

12 fragments were found.

13 So on the one hand you say you can't say whether these people were

14 intentionally burnt to death or had died in some fire, whereas on the

15 other hand, you draw the professional conclusion that it was a case of

16 this person because the bones were found on the spot where this old woman

17 was lying in bed.

18 Now, does this lead to the conclusion that this person lost her

19 life in a fire?

20 A. Well, we cannot conclude how the fire broke out, how the fire came

21 about. All we can say is that particular individual lost her life in the

22 fire and that the bodily remains were found that were the result of

23 charring.

24 Q. When you speak of Skabrnja, you speak of somebody called Nadin.

25 You speak of Skabrnja 1991 and Nadin, the place Nadin 1991, and you say

Page 18003

1 that those victims, that the authorities of Krajina turned these bodies

2 over to the Croatian authorities several days after they were killed.

3 Now, were these people who had been killed in the armed conflict between

4 the two warring sides? So there were casualties on both sides and then

5 the two warring sides exchanged both casualties and prisoners, as far as I

6 know. Was that the standard practice that you were able to testify to and

7 that's why your commission was set up and functioned in the first place?

8 It dealt with these relationships, had these ties with Krajina and

9 cooperation along those lines?

10 A. All I can do is answer your question and repeat once again that

11 the bodies that are quoted in Skabrnja 1 were handed over to Croatia on

12 the 23rd of November, that autopsies were carried out, and the causes of

13 death for those individuals were established. They were civilians ageing

14 in range of -- the eldest was born in 1911 and the youngest person was

15 born in 1986, I believe. It was a little girl.

16 Now, how they lost their lives, I really can't say. I don't know.

17 Q. As for the little girl born in 1986, I don't think that is --

18 there's any doubt that that was a civilian.

19 Now, how as a forensic medical expert yourself were you able to

20 ascertain that all the rest were civilians as well?

21 A. Well, I didn't say I had established they were civilians.

22 Q. But you're now saying they were civilians.

23 A. All I can say is when they were born, the ages of the people

24 involved, and most of them were over the age of 80.

25 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Strinovic, since 1991, in the subsequent

Page 18004

1 years, did you have any direct contacts and cooperation of any kind with

2 the authorities in Knin with respect to the job you were engaged in? Or

3 perhaps one of your departments or subsections, did they have any

4 cooperation and exchanges along those lines? Did they exchange dead

5 bodies and persons killed in the war conflicts of 1991 and 1992?

6 A. I personally did not have any contacts with people in Knin, but

7 exchanges did take place. I know that we exchanged dead bodies and that

8 this took place in 1991 and 1992. Exchanges of this kind took place then.

9 Q. And do you have any opinions as to that cooperation? Was it

10 conducted in a proper and professional way, with a respect for the rules

11 and regulations, humanitarian law and so on and so forth? Can you say

12 anything about that? Do you have any knowledge about that?

13 A. As far as I know, cooperation was quite correct, and there were no

14 particular criticisms of that cooperation.

15 Q. Very well. Let me just ask you, finally, because you said that

16 since 1991, you had contacts and cooperation with the commission of

17 Yugoslavia. Isn't that so? So as of 1991, up until the end of the war

18 and from the end of the war until the year 2000, do you believe that that

19 cooperation was correct and that it was prompted by the same efforts to

20 assist families on both sides to resolve their problems connected to their

21 dead and missing during the conflicts that occurred in the 1990s?

22 A. Yes. I think that the cooperation was throughout that period

23 correct.

24 Q. Were there any obstacles put up by the Yugoslav authorities or a

25 lack of understanding or any refusal to deal with your problems?

Page 18005

1 A. I wouldn't say so. There was some cases that took a little more

2 time, that were rather slow to deal with. Others were faster, but in any

3 event, there was a positive trend linked to cooperation between these two

4 commissions.

5 Q. From 1991 onwards?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you, Doctor.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

9 Mr. May.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honours,

12 whether you are going to have a break now.

13 JUDGE MAY: Since this is the last witness, if we can get through

14 fairly quickly, so much the better. But if you're going to be more than

15 ten minutes, we'll have to have a break.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm almost quite sure that I

17 won't need any more than ten minutes.

18 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Strinovic, could we try together to assist

20 Their Honours with respect to certain figures linked to your testimony.

21 In your testimony today and also from what we heard from Colonel Grujic

22 the other day, there is the figure that the total number of people killed

23 in Croatia during this period is 11.834; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Whereas in tab 1, there is this graph, this table with the figure

Page 18006

1 of 5.140. These are persons for whom the cause of death has been

2 established. Isn't that so?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When I asked Mr. Grujic whether this figure relating to the number

5 of exhumed bodily remains is included in the total number of victims, he

6 said that it was not included, and I understood you to say that this

7 figure of 5.100 something is within the figure of 11.800. In other words,

8 that it is included in this figure of total victim -- total number of

9 victims in Croatia.

10 A. I'm not quite sure, but I think that the total number of killed,

11 that persons with a name, we have 2.795. Those are the number that have

12 been identified.

13 Q. I thought you said today that this figure of 5.000 is included in

14 the figure of 11.000. That was my understanding of what you said.

15 Because Colonel Grujic claims that the exhumed are not included in this

16 figure, that the exhumed need to be added to this figure of 11.000.

17 A. One should add to 11.800 the number of missing persons. 11.820,

18 not the total number of exhumed bodies.

19 Q. No. Very well. So we come to my next point. The total number of

20 people for whom the cause of death has been established, according to your

21 report, is 5.000 something. And the total number of exhumed bodies,

22 according to Colonel Grujic, is 3.356, and according to you, 3.373. The

23 difference is negligible, so I wouldn't dwell on that, but the difference

24 between the figure of 3.373 and 5.000 something, your figure, the

25 difference is about 1.784, if I've done my sum correctly, but I must admit

Page 18007

1 I don't like numbers very much. So the difference is 1.784. In other

2 words, for this number of 1.784, the cause of death has been established

3 without you having the bodily remains. Isn't that right? You didn't have

4 the bodily remains for this number, so you established the cause of death

5 without having the bodily remains of this number of people.

6 A. There may be a little confusion in view of the large number of

7 figures. So 5.140 are cases from 1991 to the present day. That is the

8 total number. 3.373 exhumed bodies is the number from 1995 to the present

9 day. So after 1995.

10 So we had all the bodies of 5.140. They have been processed, and

11 that is what gives us 5.140.

12 Q. But that doesn't emanate from Mr. Grujic's opinion. He says that

13 the total number of exhumed bodies was 3.000 something.

14 JUDGE MAY: The witness can only deal with his own evidence.

15 Otherwise, it's going to lead to great confusion. You could comment on it

16 in due course, Mr. Tapuskovic.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm certainly not trying to cause

18 confusion. On the contrary, I'm trying to clarify a few minutes. I'm

19 asking this because I would like to hear from an expert. The total number

20 of victims, according to the indictment, if I did my sum correctly last

21 night, is 789.

22 Q. If we leave out Ovcara for which we have a lot of evidence in this

23 case and in other cases and a large number of witnesses and so on, that

24 leaves about 500 or close to 600 persons for whom the cause of death needs

25 to be established.

Page 18008

1 I would like to know whether you made an analysis linked to this

2 problem, that in relation to this figure of some 600 people, for how many

3 of them you have no data as to the cause of death.

4 Let us take Dubrovnik. Forty-one. Today you said that for

5 Dubrovnik you have no data regarding cause of death. There was a

6 conflict, and this is something that the Court will rule on, but you don't

7 have any information as to whether anyone was killed by a gunshot wound in

8 Dubrovnik.

9 A. Yes, that's true.

10 Q. For Bacin, you also said that there were a number of persons for

11 whom you were unable to ascertain the cause of death. So let me give you

12 one single example from Saborsko.

13 You said there a moment ago in answer to a question from

14 Mr. Milosevic, you said - and this is tab 14 - and you said that you're

15 dealing with a number of 27, 27 victims, out of which for 12 the cause of

16 death was ascertained and for 15 it was not. And according to Schedule 1

17 of the indictment, 20 persons are listed for that location. For 18, the

18 names are given, and for two, two are unidentified. So it's still unclear

19 for how many of the 20 appearing in the indictment can we say that the

20 cause of death was not established at all.

21 JUDGE MAY: Can you help with that, Dr. Strinovic? If you can't,

22 just say no. There may be other ways of dealing with the point.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just repeat what I've already

24 said for Saborsko and the number of causes of death listed there.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 18009

1 Q. I'm just asking, hoping to be useful for Their Honours.

2 Out of the 600 or so people who lost their lives, through an

3 analysis of your own or a review of your data, would you be able to

4 establish for how many out of these 600 we do not know the cause of death?

5 A. I don't have that figure just now. I just have an analysis for

6 the area of Zagreb. The cause of death is unknown for 810 cases. For

7 Vukovar, 210 cases; Osijek, 79 cases.

8 Q. So you could do it if you had the time. I think this would be of

9 great assistance to Their Honours.

10 I have one further question connected to Ovcara. You said that

11 Ovcara was discovered in 1993. You started work, then you interrupted it.

12 Is it true that from then on it was under control and nobody was able to

13 destroy any evidence?

14 A. Yes, that's true. Ovcara was guarded, I think, at the end of 1992

15 until the beginning of -- or the beginning of 1993 until it was completely

16 exhumed.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

18 appeal to you, with your permission, as we have a high-level expert in

19 forensic medicine, he was not cross-examined about this, but I would like

20 to ask him something that we touched upon in connection with another

21 problem, and it may be useful. His speciality is forensic medicine since

22 1976 to the present, and he has frequently been involved for crimes. But

23 as he is a person who has been in -- in this field for a long time, maybe

24 he could be of assistance to Their Honours in connection with the paraffin

25 glove that I raised yesterday. I just wanted to ask him whether he was

Page 18010

1 aware that in Croatia and in the former Yugoslavia that when determining

2 the circumstances of a certain murder, a paraffin glove is considered to

3 be an absolutely reliable evidence.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, you can ask him.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, that is true.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would need three minutes

8 perhaps.


10 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

11 Q. First of all, during the cross-examination, the accused asked you

12 in relation to gunshot wounds, and you said that usually the circumstances

13 of a -- the circumstances of how the gunshot wound got applied to the body

14 you would not know, you could not see. In relation to Ovcara, did you --

15 did the gravesite itself or did the gunshot wounds on the bodies, did they

16 say anything about the manner of death, whether it was execution or it was

17 killing in a war situation, in a battle? Could you see anything that gave

18 an answer to the manner of death?

19 A. I can say that, as an observer, I was at Ovcara from the beginning

20 of the exhumations. I was there on several occasions. And at one spot

21 next to the grave, casings were found, hundreds of casings that were

22 collected by others present there. And it was concluded that that is

23 where the executions had taken place or, rather, where those shots were

24 fired, because they were all found in one place. And that was one of the

25 reasons to reach the conclusion that these people were executed.

Page 18011

1 Q. And in relation to the figures that the amici discussed with you,

2 the figure of 5.140, does that include exhumations and the examination,

3 the post-mortem of fresh bodies?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. And in relation to the various crime scenes, the documentation

6 that we discussed and was also addressed in the cross-examination, did you

7 review the reports, the exhumation and autopsy reports related to these

8 crime scenes while you were here in The Hague, and did you also review the

9 documentation in your office related to exhumation and autopsies?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No more questions.

12 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Strinovic, that concludes your evidence. Thank

13 you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to

14 go.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE MAY: Before we adjourn, this is one matter I'm going to

18 mention while the witness is leaving. It concerns the evidence of two

19 witnesses about whom the Prosecution put forward a motion asking for part

20 of their evidence to be heard under Rule 92 bis. In relation to Witness

21 C-031, we will admit all the paragraphs which the Prosecution mention in

22 their application. However, in the case of Mr. Tupurkovski, we will only

23 admit these paragraphs: 1 to 14, 25 to 26, 29 to 33, 67, 68, 88.

24 We take the view that the remaining paragraphs either relate to

25 the actions of -- the acts and conduct of the accused or those close to

Page 18012

1 him or proximate to him, all their matters which have been put into issue

2 and about which we think the evidence should be given live.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I have also one -- rather, two

4 matters that Mr. Nice asked me to inform you about and hand documents

5 over, and it's -- these are outstanding matters relating to Helena Ranta.

6 We have obtained the requests for assistance which the Prosecution

7 sent in order to obtain the letter from the FRY that was discussed in

8 relation to the paraffin tests. And in fact, these are three -- three

9 requests and two separate responses of the FRY, and we have compiled it

10 and would like to provide it now.

11 JUDGE MAY: If you would do that.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. That's -- that's the one. And the

13 other -- the other document that we have available is related to --

14 JUDGE MAY: We've got to stop for the tape for a minute.

15 We'll admit these, the correspondence concerning the test. We'll

16 get a number for it, please. Give it the next -- give it a C number,

17 please.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Okay, Your Honour. That will be Chambers Exhibit

19 4.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And the other issue is the Pristina

22 District Court decision regarding Zoran Stanojevic. And we have here a

23 document related to the matter, but the -- it's the entire transcript and

24 related documents from the court proceedings. However, the -- the

25 document dealing with the finding of guilty and sentence is only a

Page 18013

1 two-page decision without any reasoning attached to it. So the long

2 document that Mr. Milosevic was referring to, that was not -- it's not

3 available with us, but we of course have the rest of the documentation.

4 JUDGE MAY: Well, perhaps you could look for the remainder of the

5 document. It must be available from the court.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. But it seems that we don't have it in

7 the house and --

8 JUDGE MAY: You will have to get it.


10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Is there any point us having that document? Do

11 you wish us to have it?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I think you should have it.

13 JUDGE MAY: Let's give that the next C number.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Because it looks as if this is the judgement

15 and there is no reasoning. Maybe we could have a look at the judgement

16 Mr. Milosevic is referring to, to check whether it's probably -- probably

17 from a different decision.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Chamber Exhibit number

19 5.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, have a look at the document which

21 they've given you, and if your questions related to a different case,

22 perhaps you could tell us, but no need to do it now.

23 We will adjourn and sit again 9.00 Monday morning.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.45 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of March,

Page 18014

1 2003, at 9.00 a.m.