Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20161

1 Tuesday, 6 May 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I should just like you to

8 explain something to me. This is the list of witness order provided to me

9 by the opposite side, and the time provided, three hours. You explained

10 yesterday that that applies to me too and that that is together. So can

11 you tell me whether the opposite side is now limiting the time I have for

12 my cross-examination too, or is that your job?

13 JUDGE MAY: No. That reference to time is purely an estimate

14 which the Prosecution make as to the time which a witness is likely to

15 take. It's not binding on anybody. It's merely a forecast. Yes.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. But I assume

17 that you're bearing in mind the fact that this witness was the president

18 of the Party of Democratic Action in Bratunac, and you also heard from the

19 previous witness, who was a protected witness, that in that municipality,

20 except two, all the other Serb villages were razed to the ground and the

21 inhabitants that weren't able to escape were killed. So I don't see why I

22 shouldn't have a little more time to question this witness. He must have

23 known about these events.

24 JUDGE MAY: You can ask him about them now. We have in fact

25 considered all these matters in setting the time available. Now, let us

Page 20162

1 move on.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So you're not going to give me more

3 time.

4 JUDGE MAY: Let's move on. Yes. We'll hear an application at the

5 end, but start the cross-examination now.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gusic, yesterday during your testimony, you

10 said that all the posts of leadership in the Bratunac municipality by and

11 large were held by the Serbs, and you even went on to quote about 80 per

12 cent, I believe. Is that right?

13 A. I was speaking about the public services, public enterprises in

14 the Bratunac municipality.

15 Q. All right. Public, socially owned, whatever you like to call

16 them, all of them together. But is it true that the director of the

17 company called Vihor was Djordje Sead? Just give me yes or no answers,

18 please, to save time.

19 A. That was an economic commercial enterprise. What I was talking

20 about was not commercial enterprises. As far as commercial enterprises,

21 there were directors who were Muslims and Serbs alike.

22 Q. Well, all right. Is it true then that Faho Djodjic was the

23 director of the Kaolin factory?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And is it true that Mujo Mujcic, another man, was director of the

Page 20163

1 ceramics factory in Bratunac? Is that also true?

2 A. I think for a time, yes. I don't know when exactly. But you're

3 talking about commercial enterprises. I was talking about the social

4 services companies.

5 Q. And Edo Ahmic was he the director of Kartonaza?

6 A. Yes, he was.

7 Q. And Cazim Avdic, a director of Feros company?

8 A. The Feros company was not located in Bratunac.

9 Q. What about Enver Hekic? Was he the director of the Autotransport

10 company?

11 A. No, he wasn't.

12 Q. And is it true that Rifat Besic was director of the timber

13 industry in Bratunac?

14 A. Rifat Besic died several years before the occupation of Bratunac

15 took place.

16 Q. And is it true that Ahmic Selmanagic were director and deputy

17 director of the Sase mine?

18 A. The Sase mine is not located in Bratunac. It is the Srebrenica

19 municipality.

20 Q. Is it true that the director of the secondary school in Bratunac

21 was also a Muslim by the name of Hasib Hasanovic?

22 A. Yes, that is true.

23 Q. And primary school, Taib Avdic, also a Muslim? Is that true too?

24 A. I don't know about the primary school.

25 Q. How come you don't know?

Page 20164

1 A. I really don't know. There may be things that I don't know.

2 Q. Well, it's such a small place and you were the president of the

3 party. I assume you ought to know.

4 A. Well, Taib Avdic, the name doesn't ring a bell.

5 Q. All right. You don't know him. And president of the court for

6 misdemeanors, was he Bahret Kustura?

7 A. He was at one time president of the misdemeanors court, but of

8 late he worked as an inspector in the municipality.

9 Q. And Hajro Halilovic, president of another court?

10 A. Bratunac did not have a first instance court.

11 Q. Well, he was in the area of one first instance court and the

12 president was Hajro Halilovic; is that right?

13 A. Hajro Halilovic, as far as I know, was the president of the first

14 instance court in the Srebrenica municipality.

15 Q. Did that first instance court cover Bratunac too?

16 A. Yes, it did.

17 Q. Well, that's what I'm talking about. So what kind of Serb

18 domination in Bratunac are you speaking about at all if all this is

19 correct, what I have put to you?

20 A. You enumerated just a number of directorship posts, and you have a

21 lot of misinformation there. You were wrong on many counts. I was

22 talking about social companies in the social services and you were talking

23 about commercial enterprises.

24 Q. Well, these are all socially owned companies.

25 A. But they also engaged in the private sector.

Page 20165

1 Q. And Mujo Zukic, was he president of the Municipal Assembly? Is

2 that true?

3 A. When the first party elections were held and when the government

4 was constituted --

5 Q. Just give me a yes or no answer. Was he or wasn't he?

6 A. Ljubicic was president of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac and

7 the Executive Board president was Djukanovic and these were parallel

8 posts.

9 Q. And is it true that the chief of police in Bratunac was Senad

10 Hadzic?

11 A. Senad Hodzic was elected as chief of police at the end of the

12 1991, and the commander of the police force --

13 Q. I'm not asking you about the commander. I'm asking you about this

14 other man. Is it true that the head of the municipal department for

15 national defence was Dzemail Becirevic?

16 A. Yes, that is true.

17 Q. We already established yesterday that the chief of staff for

18 Territorial Defence was Safet Mujkic; is that right?

19 A. Not Safet Mujkic, not at that time, he wasn't the commander of the

20 TO staff. I told you that yesterday. He was at some time before the

21 commander of the Territorial Defence Staff but not during that period of

22 time. Safet Mujkic was not territorial commander at that time.

23 Q. And who was, then? Who was it?

24 A. It was Dzemo Hodzic.

25 Q. Is Dzemo Hodzic a Muslim too?

Page 20166

1 A. I answered that question yesterday and said he was, yes.

2 Q. All right. Fine. Now, as you're saying there was absolutely no

3 cause and that on the 17th of April although there was no fighting certain

4 forces were in Bratunac. Mr. Gusic, are you aware of the fact that on the

5 14th of April, that is to say several days prior to that, a column of

6 cadets from Rajlovac near Sarajevo, which was withdrawing with its weapons

7 and materiel through the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in keeping with

8 the federal government, was attacked in the village of Hranca, this column

9 of cadets. Do you remember that?

10 A. That is absolutely not true.

11 Q. You don't know that there was shooting from an ambush attacking

12 the column of cadets from Rajlovac and that many of them were seriously

13 wounded and injured and all the rest of it?

14 A. Well, I do apologise, but I have to say that that is pure

15 fabrication.

16 Q. Well, people are watching these proceedings from Bratunac and will

17 be able to assess themselves which of the two of us are telling the truth,

18 you or I.

19 A. Of course we are being watched, the proceedings are being watched,

20 and I have taken the solemn declaration to tell the truth and I stand by

21 each word I utter and I'm ready to be held accountable.

22 Q. Do you know about the brothers Ramic from Bratunac? Have you

23 heard of them, Abdurahman and two others? Yes or no.

24 A. No.

25 Q. And do you know what Nezir Ramic's sons are called from Bratunac?

Page 20167

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. And do you know of the Hadzic brothers from Hranca and Redzo

3 Arifovic and his brother Zoka? Have you heard of them?

4 A. No, I really haven't.

5 Q. Well, according to my information, all these were individuals who

6 organised the ambush of the cadets column from Rajlovac and the shooting

7 that took place when they were shot at.

8 JUDGE MAY: You know quite well you are not to put something which

9 the witness denies happened. It's a complete waste of time to go on

10 putting the same thing.

11 Now, we have considered your application for more time. We will

12 give you a total of 35 minutes this morning, which gives you a quarter of

13 an hour extra. But you won't get any extra time if you waste it by

14 putting the same things over and over again.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'm not repeating the

16 same things, Mr. May.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. But do you know that it was the JNA's task to prevent conflicts

19 and attacks, first and foremost to protect the units of the JNA which were

20 withdrawing from Bosnia and to disarm the Muslims and Serbs and to prevent

21 conflicts between the two?

22 A. That observation of yours is not correct. It was the task of the

23 Yugoslav People's Army in concrete terms in the Bratunac municipality was

24 to arm the Serb population in Bratunac and to lay down all the necessary

25 preparations.

Page 20168

1 Q. Would you answer my questions, please. Have you heard of Ejub

2 Golic?

3 A. Yes, I've heard of the name.

4 Q. Did you hear that he was from the village of Glogova, from the

5 Bratunac municipality? Just yes or no.

6 A. Yes, that is true.

7 Q. Is it true that at the end of 1991, he organised barricades,

8 roadblocks, and the local police-controlled checkpoints at which they

9 would stop Serbs and mistreat them?

10 A. No, I don't know about that.

11 Q. You don't know about that. And is it true that later on he became

12 the commander of the infamous battalion of the 28th Division from

13 Srebrenica?

14 A. I don't know about this. I was in an encirclement in Bratunac in

15 Glogova, Srebrenica, from the 17th of April. On the 17th of April, I left

16 Bratunac.

17 Q. I'm talking about the end of 1991 and the Mountain Brigade.

18 A. No. I don't think anybody was involved.

19 Q. Where were you yourself from the 17th of April onwards then?

20 A. From the 17th of April onwards, for a time I was in Gradacac, and

21 then I was in Banovici, and then in Tuzla, and Kladanj, and so on. That's

22 where I stayed for a time and was on assignment.

23 Q. But I'm sure you were interested about what was going on in

24 Bratunac in the meantime and you followed all the events taking place

25 there.

Page 20169

1 A. Well, of course I was interested in that. And as far as I was

2 able, I did always like to get news from Bratunac to see what was going

3 on. That's quite normal.

4 Q. All right, Mr. Gusic. Yesterday you claimed here that as an

5 activist of the SDA and one of the vice-presidents, you knew nothing about

6 the existence of any kind of Muslim armed formations in the Bratunac area

7 in the period between 1991 up until your departure; is that right?

8 A. It is right. They did not exist on the territory of Bratunac. No

9 kind of Muslim formation existed.

10 Q. And you also said you knew nothing about the existence of the

11 so-called, and can I call it infamous, Patriotic League of Nations in the

12 Bratunac municipality in 1991 and 1992 and its units; is that right?

13 A. Well, you're calling it the Patriotic League. I think that as

14 regards those activities, it's not even worth mentioning in view of the

15 fact that Bratunac was a peaceful place, calm place, which offered in

16 resistance on the 17th of April. Not a single bullet was shot by a Muslim

17 at all which would merit ethnic cleansing on the part of Serb formations

18 after the 17th of April, the killing thousands of Muslim civilians, men,

19 military-able men, elderly men, women, children, and so on.

20 Q. Yesterday we noted that nobody fired a single bullet on the 17th

21 of April. Now, do you know the name of Nijaz Masic at all?

22 A. Yes, I do know that name. It does ring a bell, sounds familiar.

23 Q. Did he write a booklet of some kind about Bratunac which was

24 published in 1996? Do you know about that?

25 A. Nijaz Masic was an historian and he always collected information

Page 20170

1 and data, and yes, he did write a book about Bratunac, a leaflet about

2 Bratunac.

3 Q. In the introduction to his book, in the preface, it says that

4 during his work, he consulted all important commanders of units and

5 representatives of political and state bodies of the Bratunac

6 municipality. And then he goes on to say and that he would like to

7 express his gratitude to Professor Dr. Tarik Kulenovic especially, Dzevad

8 Gusic as well, that is to say to you, Gusic, and Sabic and professor

9 Ibrahim Tepic. So he expresses his thanks to four people, amongst whom is

10 your name. I assume you know that.

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. All right. Tell me, then, in that book, as an historian, he

13 states the following: With his -- its party line, the Party of Democratic

14 Action from the beginning of September 1991 organised village guards,

15 village watches. Is that true? Is that correct?

16 A. Well, as far as the village watches --

17 Q. Just say yes or no, please. Give me a yes or no answer.

18 JUDGE MAY: Don't interrupt the witness like that. You mustn't

19 harry him.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd be very grateful to you,

21 Mr. May, if --

22 JUDGE MAY: Now, don't interrupt, and let the witness answer.

23 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

24 JUDGE MAY: We've got no translation.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English on this channel?

Page 20171












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 20172

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday, I said during my

2 statement that there was controlled night shooting from Serb villages

3 against Muslim villages. This went on for days and days. So the locals

4 from these villages, the Muslims from Muslim villages, organised village

5 guards because they were terribly frightened and worried about everything

6 that was going on. So that is correct.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. All right. Since it's correct, then he says the following: "The

9 delegation of the SDA of Bratunac consisting of Nijaz Dubicic, Sabit

10 Mujkic, Azem Dzanic, and Dzemail Becirevic took part in the meeting of the

11 initiative committee of the communities from the Drina area in order to

12 establish the Patriotic League of the Tuzla district held on the 16th of

13 July, 1991 in Srebrenica. That meeting is well-known under the name of

14 the Drina Region Initiative."

15 So in July 1991, you established a Patriotic League, and this

16 Drina Region Initiative is referred to here. And you say that you know

17 nothing about the organisation of the Patriotic League in your area,

18 although this man thanks you for the -- for having consulted him in the

19 preparation of this book.

20 A. Well, see, as far as acknowledgments are concerned, I did give a

21 contribution, I did talk to the distinguished Professor Nijaz Masic, and I

22 told him about certain political activities and political developments.

23 That is to say in relation to this particular period in Bratunac before

24 the war and up to the 17th of April.

25 And now as for this allegation that you're making or, rather, what

Page 20173

1 you've read allegedly from this book, I don't know whether this is exactly

2 what it says in the book, but if it is what it says, then it is probably

3 the author's right to write something like that on the basis of some

4 information. I would not like to go into this. Perhaps he should be

5 asked about this. But what I would like to tell you for sure is what I

6 know myself.

7 At that time, we from the Party of Democratic Action did have

8 information, that is to say verified information, that the Yugoslav

9 People's Army and the Serb Democratic Party were arming the Serb people

10 and that they were carrying out preparations among the Serb people for a

11 possible war. We had information that the Serb Democratic Party --

12 Q. I'm not asking you that, sir.

13 A. -- established a Crisis Staff for the municipality of Bratunac and

14 for all the local communes. We had information that constant intimidation

15 was going on against the Muslim people, and we also had several cases of

16 beatings --

17 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry, Mr. Gusic, we've heard that, I think. If

18 you'd just concentrate on the accused's questions.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really am sorry. I felt it was

20 necessary for me to say this in order to clarify the following: As the

21 committee of the SDA, we had requests coming from people stating that we

22 should organise ourselves to defend Bratunac or, rather, against an

23 attempt to occupy Bratunac by Serb formations and by the Yugoslav People's

24 Army from Serbia. So it is under these circumstances, under such

25 circumstances that I've just described we from the SDA charged a certain

Page 20174

1 person with particular duties. We gave him a free hand in order to

2 organise defence in Bratunac against a possible occupation of the

3 municipality. And I have to say with regret that this was never

4 successful. This person tried to talk to people in the area --

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I hope that you are really going to cut this short, this speech of

7 yours over here.

8 A. Well, yes. I'm going to try to cut it short. So we charged Sabit

9 Mujkic with this. We already discussed this yesterday. And in view of

10 this danger and in view of the great danger involved, all of this happened

11 before 10 -- I mean, everybody who could, left Bratunac ten days before

12 the occupation of Bratunac took place, whenever they could. So it wasn't

13 really that much was done in this particular field.

14 Q. Well, that's what you're saying now, but what it says here, what

15 is written here is that the president of the municipality and Sabit

16 Mujkic, as commander of the Territorial Defence of Bratunac, was at a

17 meeting at the 11th -- on the 11th of January 1991 in Tolsic, in the

18 municipality of Kalesija and, at the request of the Bratunac delegation, a

19 decision was passed to send Samir Nisovic to Bratunac to coordinate the

20 work of the Patriotic League of Bratunac.

21 So a Patriotic League of Bratunac was already established, and he,

22 on the 11th of January, got the assignment to coordinate the work of the

23 Patriotic League of Bratunac. Is that correct or is that not correct?

24 A. As for the establishment of the Patriotic League, it was never

25 established in the municipality of Bratunac. An attempt was made to have

Page 20175

1 something done, but it failed and it was for the reasons that I already

2 referred to.

3 Q. But it says here Samir Nisovic, and I mean I'm just quoting what

4 is written in this book, immediately started carrying out this assignment.

5 He arrived in Bratunac. First the SDA of Bratunac in 1991 established a

6 Patriotic League for Bratunac while its military establishment was carried

7 out in February 1992. That's what it says here.

8 He has helped the military establishment of the Patriotic League

9 and it was indeed established under the auspices of the SDA of Bratunac in

10 February of 1992 in Voljevica at the premises of the local commune of

11 Voljevica. So that is what is written here in his book, and he thanks you

12 for the consultations he carried out with you. So is this correct or is

13 this not correct? Just tell me that.

14 A. I'm really going to give you a precise answer now. I think that

15 this should get over with. When I became party president on the 21st of

16 March 1992, there was no Patriotic League. Nothing had been done in

17 concrete terms for this Patriotic League to be able to function in this

18 area. There were only attempts that had been made, just attempts.

19 Q. All right. So your answer to this question of mine is that what

20 this man has written here is incorrect.

21 A. It is correct to the effect that an attempt was made to have

22 something done.

23 Q. But he's not writing about an attempt. So you are saying that

24 this is not correct.

25 A. Well, you see, historians probably have information of their own,

Page 20176

1 they have their own reasons for writing things, and I wouldn't like to go

2 into all of that.

3 Q. But he says the Patriotic League of Bratunac decided that the

4 Patriotic League Staff should consist of people who had certain military

5 skills, and then he enumerates some names. So you know nothing about this

6 and all this was just an attempt?

7 A. All of this was just an attempt.

8 Q. Very well. It says here that in most of the free territory, the

9 municipality of Bratunac in Konjevic Polje a War Presidency was

10 established with the most political prominent representatives of all parts

11 and links were established and agreement was given to establish a War

12 Presidency of the municipality of Bratunac as a political organ of

13 government, and one of the most important decisions reached was the

14 establishment of a municipal Crisis Staff of the municipality of Bratunac

15 and Velid Sabic was appointed as commander. Is that correct?

16 A. Please, could you tell me first what are the dates involved

17 specifically.

18 Q. Well, this War Presidency is the 16th of July, 1992, and I can see

19 that you know very well what this is all about.

20 A. Well, this was carried out when the occupation of Bratunac was

21 carried out, when the ethic cleansing of villages was carried out and when

22 thousands of civilians were killed, thousands of Muslim civilians in

23 Bratunac.

24 Q. Yesterday you said that the Serbs established some police of their

25 own that had some kind of a hostile attitude towards the Muslims; isn't

Page 20177

1 that right?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. And this is what is written here. It seems to be the other way

4 around, that the Serbs had been endangered. And then, in agreement with

5 you, they established a police through which they will be -- they will

6 feel more secure and safer it says. In a confused situation, the SDS were

7 catered to and a separate militia was established. On the 8th of April,

8 1992, that is to say that you were still there, the Executive Board of the

9 SDA met, that is to say of your party, with the club of Assemblymen of the

10 SDA in Bratunac headed by Dzevad Gusic, president of the SDA for Bratunac.

11 And they passed a decision to agree to the establishment of a Serb

12 militia, Serb police, with particular reference to some item 13 and so on

13 and so forth.

14 And then it says later --

15 JUDGE MAY: No. One thing at a time. The witness cannot possibly

16 deal with this in this way. Just a moment. Let the witness answer.

17 Now, what is alleged is that the Executive Board met on the 8th of

18 April with the club of Assemblymen of the SDA headed by yourself. Was

19 there such a meeting, Mr. Gusic.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Such a meeting was held. And

21 yesterday I talked about the pressures made by the SDS, and they were

22 headed by Miroslav Deronjic to divide the police, and he said that they

23 could wait no longer and there was direct pressure coming from President

24 Radovan Karadzic and that we had to choose, allegedly, that we would

25 either have peace in Bratunac or --

Page 20178

1 JUDGE MAY: You've told us that. So is that the meeting which is

2 referred to, that one on the 8th of April? Yes. Very well.

3 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. The meeting we've heard about.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. All right. And then he says there was a meeting of the Municipal

6 Assembly where the establishment of the Serb police was legalised, and he

7 says that in honour of the agreement reached, all of those present went to

8 the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac for a drink. This was on the 9th of April,

9 1992. Is that right or is that not right, Mr. Gusic?

10 A. I'm going to explain this to you. At this meeting of the

11 Municipal Assembly of Bratunac, we told all the Assemblymen present, and

12 in addition to those from Bratunac there were other citizens who were

13 present. The hall was full. Perhaps there were some 200 persons present.

14 The president of the Serb Democratic Party, Miroslav Deronjic,

15 presented these requests to have the police force divided, and we

16 explained why this police should be divided. We said that we are in a

17 position to choose, either to have peace in the area or to have somebody

18 from the outside come and occupy Bratunac, as was already the case in

19 Bijeljina and Zvornik. And we put forth 13 prerequisites, conditions, in

20 order to have this accepted, and they were the following: That a unit of

21 the JNA --

22 JUDGE MAY: Since time is fairly short, I must ask you to answer

23 the question. Is it right that on the 9th of April you went to the

24 Fontana Hotel for a drink? Did you all go there or not?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We from the Party of Democratic

Page 20179

1 Action wanted to do our best in order to secure peace in Bratunac, and

2 this was a move made by our side to show that we were in favour of peace

3 and co-existence and that there was no need for anyone from the outside to

4 come to Bratunac, which all means that yes, this is correct.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. As opposed to your testimony yesterday, is it correct then that

7 the Serb police was established in Bratunac through legal means, that is

8 to say at a meeting of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac?

9 A. Well, you see, you cannot call this a legal meeting because the

10 Municipal Assembly of Bratunac was not a legal organ that could have split

11 up the police. You know that, as far as police is concerned, the republic

12 was in charge of that.

13 Q. So why were you engaged in this illegal activity? Now you

14 consider it to be illegal and then you took part in it, and you were

15 appointed head of that delegation of the SDA that proposed this, that is,

16 for the Serbs to have a police.

17 A. I was president of the Executive Board of the SDA for Bratunac and

18 it is only natural that I headed these negotiations. At that time, we

19 wanted to do our best only to prevent the occupation of Bratunac, that is

20 to say something like what happened in Bijeljina. And I think that I've

21 repeated this at least ten times and I believe that this is quite clear,

22 more than clear.

23 Q. It's more than clear to me and I think that it's more than clear

24 to everybody in Bratunac.

25 These people who were armed, the people you described, were they

Page 20180

1 members of the Territorial Defence of Bratunac or of the JNA?

2 A. What people do you mean?

3 Q. Those you saw on the 17th of April, those who were in the streets.

4 Was that the Territorial Defence of Bratunac or the JNA?

5 A. These were some military formations from Serbia. There was a

6 certain unit of the Yugoslav People's Army there.

7 Q. Which unit of the Yugoslav People's Army?

8 A. I don't know exactly which unit it was. That was there then, I

9 mean. I know that they were present, though, because they wore JNA

10 uniforms. I wore that kind of uniform when I did my military service in

11 Belgrade in the neighbourhood of Vozdovac in 1984. And then when I left

12 Bratunac on the 17th of April, after awhile when the ethnic cleansing had

13 been carried out of all the Muslims, when all the Muslims were cleansed

14 from Bratunac, they brought me a document. This JNA unit was under the

15 command of Svetozar Milosevic, a colonel, and he signed that document,

16 that proclamation on behalf of the Drina group. And he had been appointed

17 by the General Staff of the Yugoslav People's Army from Belgrade.

18 Q. That's not what I'm asking you. I'm asking you which unit this

19 was, and you say that you don't know. Please, do you know, though,

20 although you said a few minutes ago that you followed events in Bratunac

21 and now you say that ethnic cleansing was carried out, so what do you say

22 to the fact that all Serb villages in the municipality of Bratunac except

23 for two were razed to the ground and their population was killed entirely

24 except for people who managed to flee to Bratunac or to Drina -- or to

25 Serbia across the Drina River? Is that ethnic cleansing or what do you

Page 20181

1 call that?

2 A. First of all, this piece of information is not correct.

3 Q. All right.

4 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer it.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He says it's not correct. What more

6 is there for him to say to that?

7 JUDGE MAY: It's being put that the Serb villages were razed.

8 Were any of them razed at any time?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 17th of April, I left. After

10 that, there was ethnic cleansing of all Muslims. All the Muslims from

11 Bratunac were expelled, 21.000.

12 JUDGE MAY: You've told us that. Forgive me, but time is short.

13 You've told us that. Did anything happen, to your knowledge, to the Serb

14 villages. That's the question you're being asked.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, only Serbs

16 remained living in Bratunac, and during the war they engaged in certain

17 combat operations. I was not a participant so I'm not qualified to talk

18 about them.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Very well. Are you aware of the event in Konjevic Polje on the

21 27th of May when columns of trucks were ambushed? These trucks were

22 transporting bauxite. Workers were on board. No one was armed. When a

23 group of drivers driving those trucks, who were Serbs, were killed, the

24 vehicles damaged, an act of sabotage, traffic stopped, people killed,

25 workers. They were not soldiers or I don't know who, any kind of

Page 20182












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13 English transcripts.













Page 20183

1 politicians. They were simply workers, drivers driving truckloads of

2 bauxite.

3 A. I don't know that but I think it is not true.

4 Q. I see. So you think it's not true. I have here a list of the

5 names of people who were killed.

6 A. I will tell you now you will have more witnesses who are more

7 qualified to talk about that, and I would like to ask you to discuss that

8 matter with them.

9 Q. Well, I can't talk to the people who were killed, but I can tell

10 you that the attack was carried out upon orders of Ferid Fodzic, whose

11 father's name is Avdo. And the actual perpetrators were Semsudin

12 Salihovic, Munib Alic, Meho --

13 JUDGE MAY: You're not going to get away with this. The witness

14 knows nothing about it. If you want to call your evidence about the

15 incident as alleged, you can do so but you can't put it to the witness.

16 In fact, you've got one minute left, so that's time for two questions.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a lot of questions left,

18 Mr. May.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Is it true that on the 29th of May, in the village of Sandici on

21 the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, an ambush set by these non-existent

22 forces, according to you, ten policemen were killed? Is that true?

23 A. I don't know about that.

24 Q. I see. So is it true that in an attack on the Serbian village of

25 Gornji Magasici in Bratunac municipality on the 25th of June, 1992, 12

Page 20184

1 civilians were killed, Serbs?

2 A. I think the information is not true. I wasn't there at that time

3 so I'm unable to comment.

4 JUDGE MAY: You've had your time now, ample time.

5 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gusic, is it true that you attended a meeting

9 with Serbs, you yourself, and that at that meeting you suggested to your

10 Serb neighbours that joint guards be formed to protect each other? Would

11 you tell us who did you need to protect yourself against together with the

12 Serbs?

13 A. You see, we had received certain information that military

14 formations from Serbia and the JNA would occupy Bratunac. We had that

15 information based on the facts that this had already happened in Bijeljina

16 and Zvornik. So we tried, with our Serb neighbours, to discuss the

17 matter, saying that we were neighbours, that we had been living together

18 for many years, that we knew each other very well, and that we should

19 remain on good terms regardless of the times that were coming, and that we

20 should jointly organise these guards in the streets and areas where people

21 were living together, co-existing multi-ethnically, and that was the

22 reason why I had that conversation.

23 Q. So if I understood you correctly, you were talking to Serbs, that

24 the Serbs protect themselves against the Serbs and the JNA.

25 A. Yes, from the Serbs coming from Serbia and the JNA.

Page 20185

1 Q. Thank you. Also, at a meeting with representatives of the JNA,

2 you went there to raise a number of questions, among others why they were

3 hastening into war; was that right?

4 A. That was a meeting with the leadership of the Serbian Democratic

5 Party, and the leadership of the SDA was present as well as prominent

6 citizens from Bratunac, both Serbs and Muslims. There were about 60 or 70

7 people attending, and then we asked the Serbs why they were rushing into

8 war, why were people being trained militarily, and why was the JNA and the

9 SDS training people in the village of Vranesevici while the barrels of

10 guns were turned towards inhabited areas in Bratunac, why we needed that.

11 Q. Thank you. You already explained that when you were questioned

12 during the examination-in-chief. I'm asking you, did you know at the end

13 of 1991 and the beginning of 1992 what had happened in Croatia and

14 Slovenia?

15 A. Yes, we had information about that.

16 Q. And didn't you know that certain things had already happened over

17 there which had increased tension between the peoples living in those

18 areas?

19 A. Yes. We knew about that, but the problem of the Muslim people

20 specifically was that they trusted their Serb neighbours. They had lived

21 together for a long time on good terms. And the Muslim people in Bratunac

22 could not imagine that such a situation would occur. There were

23 individual Muslims who were aware of what was happening and who tried to

24 open the eyes of the others as to what was about to happen, but generally

25 speaking, the Muslims trusted their Serb neighbours.

Page 20186

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would you please

3 look at Exhibit 436, tab 1. You will find there the document in which the

4 witness gave his personal data, and also there's a part about his career.

5 So would you please look at that document in the Serbian language. It has

6 been signed by Mr. Gusic on the 2nd of May, 2003. And now I would like to

7 ask him something in connection with the second paragraph that has been

8 translated into English where there is talk of his working experience.

9 Q. Mr. Gusic, you said here to the Prosecutors the other day that on

10 the 17th of April, 1992, you left Bratunac. You were in Gradacac, and you

11 returned about a month later; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Did you say later, after that, that a month after the 17th of

14 April, that is in May, you joined a unit of the army of BiH consisting of

15 about 400 combatants as a regular soldier; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The commander of this unit was Nurif Rizvanovic. The unit spent a

18 month in Banovic municipality close to Tuzla and then later you joined the

19 troops of the BH army in Bratunac and Srebrenica. Is that right? Does

20 that mean that a month after the 17th of April this unit numbered 400

21 combatants and all of them were armed? Is that true?

22 A. It is true that the commander Nurif Rizvanovic had, out of the

23 expelled Muslims after the cleansing of Bratunac municipality, he rallied

24 a sufficient number of combatants, about 400 of them, who were ready to

25 return to a part of the free territory of the municipality, that is

Page 20187

1 Konjevic Polje and Srebrenica, and those 400 fighters managed to pass

2 between the lines and to return into that encirclement together with the

3 commander Nurif Rizvanovic who succeeded in arming all 400 fighters.

4 Q. But weren't you a member of that unit and weren't you armed?

5 A. I spent a month in that unit and then I needed to go to Croatia

6 where my family was. In the meantime, while I was in Croatia, this unit

7 passed between the lines and entered a part of Bratunac municipality

8 territory that is Konjevic Polje and Srebrenica.

9 Q. Yes, but it says here that you returned to Tuzla and joined the

10 Bratunac unit under the command of the 2nd Tuzla Corps. Is that right?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. So you spent some time there from the end of 1992 to the beginning

13 of 1993 as a part of that armed military unit.

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And is it true, Mr. Gusic, that during that time you were

16 assistant commander for morality of commander Becir Mekanic? Is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes, it is right.

19 Q. What does a person who is responsible for morale in a unit

20 actually do?

21 A. As far as my duties as assistant commander for moral guidance is

22 concerned, they consist of the following: My duty was to regularly brief

23 the combatants about all events on the front within Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina, also to inform them about all important political

25 developments in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in the world.

Page 20188

1 A second part of my duties was to work on preparing the combatants

2 for performing their duties responsibly.

3 A third part of my duties was to make it possible for combatants

4 to freely practice their faith and to engage in religious rights.

5 And a fourth part of my duties was, together with the logistics

6 department, to ensure for the combatants cigarettes, newspapers, hygienic

7 material, and so on.

8 Q. In other words, as from May 1992 up to 1993, you were continuously

9 a member of the armed units of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. Now, one more question. The last sentence says: "I personally

12 did not see any atrocities." That's what you said.

13 A. Where is this sentence?

14 Q. The last sentence of your statement of the 15th of April. You

15 say, "I personally did not eyewitness any atrocities." Is that correct?

16 A. Could I please say which context?

17 Q. You later on heard about things. It is the last sentence of your

18 statement.

19 A. You mean the statement of the 15th of April, 1999?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. That probably refers to the date of the 17th of April.

22 Q. Well, I will find the sentence for you.

23 A. Yes. Well, you read the sentence.

24 Q. Would you like to read it for yourself, please.

25 A. It is very important to read this sentence: "That is how I

Page 20189

1 escaped the horrors that I learnt later happened in Bratunac and

2 surrounding villages." This is a reference to ethnic cleansing.

3 So I was not a witness to any of the atrocities myself, but I am

4 aware of what took place there as naturally they will have been discussed

5 on many occasions subsequently.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And thank you, Your Honours.

8 MR. NICE: A couple matters, Your Honour.

9 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

10 Q. You were asked about paragraph 28 of the summary, that is the

11 visit of MUP officials Koljevic, Galic, and others and about the events

12 associated with that visit. You told us about an assertion that the

13 investigation into events would not take place. Do you remember? Ganic

14 said the perpetrators would be caught. Koljevic travelled to the location

15 and spoke to a larger gathering of Serbs.

16 What was it that Koljevic said?

17 A. It was agreed -- Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Ganic first came to see the

18 president of the municipality of Bratunac, and it was agreed that two

19 major rallies be held, one in Bratunac and another in Kravica.

20 In Bratunac, it should have been a multi-ethnic rally that both of

21 them addressed to tell the people that an investigation would be carried

22 out and that the perpetrators of the killing that occurred in Kravica

23 would be discovered and treated and punished in accordance with the law.

24 And Messrs. Koljevic and Ganic were to go to Kravica together to address

25 the Serb peoples with the same message and with the same promises.

Page 20190

1 Mr. Koljevic, on his own initiative, that is without the other

2 Presidency member, Mr. Ganic, went to Kravica and spoke to the Serb people

3 in Kravica and told them on that occasion not to worry, that no

4 investigation would be initiated in connection with those killings.

5 Also at the same time, I had occasion to hear Radovan Karadzic on

6 the radio who said to the Serb people that the MUP of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina would not carry out an investigation into that matter and that

8 he was guaranteeing that.

9 Q. Thank you. You spoke on a couple of occasions about the movement

10 of some Serbs away from the area of Bratunac. This is dealt with at

11 paragraphs 31 and 46 of the summary. Was that a genuine movement or was

12 there anything about it that you doubted as to its genuineness?

13 A. We had two cases in the few months prior to the 17th of April when

14 a certain number of Serbs moved out of Bratunac. These were mostly

15 elderly people, women, and children. This happened on two occasions, the

16 first time after this killing carried out by the Serbs in Kravica when

17 they killed two Muslims and wounded another two. In those days, the Serbs

18 had no reason to move out of Bratunac.

19 The second alleged reason that they gave, regardless of the fact

20 that they had liquidated those Bosniaks, they claimed that they were in

21 danger. And this was at the beginning of April, I think it was the 1st of

22 April when, on the 30th of March, Serb military units entered Bijeljina

23 and occupied Bijeljina and committed certain atrocities over there so that

24 in the first days of April, again allegedly being in danger, these Serb

25 families started moving out.

Page 20191

1 Q. We have the drift of your answers to both -- your explanation of

2 for both departures. If the explanation for the departure as given by the

3 Serbs was not genuine, what, as you could you calculate or see, was the

4 real reason for these departures?

5 A. I can claim with certainty that the Serbs had no justifiable

6 reason to move out. The real reason for them leaving could be described

7 in a few sentences. It was designed to achieve several effects.

8 First, additional homogenisation of the Serb people. Second, to

9 show to the Serbs in Serbia, specifically in Ljubovija, that the Serbs in

10 Bratunac in Bosnia and Herzegovina were in jeopardy and that Mother Serbia

11 headed by the accused, Slobodan Milosevic, needed to protect them. And a

12 third and perhaps most important matter, it was a kind of practice so that

13 the Serbian people would be easily placed under the unified command of the

14 Yugoslav People's Army and the SDS so as to occupy Bratunac, as happened

15 on the 17th of April, as easily as possible.

16 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think that's all I'll ask of this

17 witness in re-examination, given the time constraints and the very

18 detailed nature of his answers earlier and indeed to me.

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gusic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

20 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to

21 go.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE MAY: There are some procedural matters to deal with before

25 the next witness.

Page 20192

1 MR. NICE: And I have some to raise as well, sir.

2 JUDGE MAY: Let me deal with -- there are some rulings which I

3 want to give. There's one ruling which will require something to go to

4 the interpreters but let me deal with the other matters first.

5 The first is protective measures for the next witness, B-1461. We

6 have a motion of the 5th of May. We are going to grant it in the terms

7 asked.

8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would just ask that the usher inform

9 the witness as I will not have an opportunity before he comes, that the

10 protections he asked for has been afforded by the court.

11 JUDGE MAY: We must make sure that that message is passed on to

12 him since nobody's here.

13 The next matter is a purely procedural matter, and it's this:

14 That Judge Kwon is required to be absent on Tribunal business in June, and

15 the Trial Chamber will sit in his absence composed of Judge Robinson and

16 myself. That is between Monday the 16th and Thursday the 19th of June.

17 The two Judges will sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis of the Rules. And the

18 formal order will be made today.

19 Don't stand for this, please, Mr. Nice.

20 I'm going to read out a ruling which I hope the interpreters now

21 have concerning -- the final ruling it is on the Croatia Rule 92 bis

22 witnesses. It relates to the following: Witness C-1086, 1089, 1162,

23 1175, 1185, 1215, 1238, 1055, 1136, 1191.

24 All the witnesses deal with events about which evidence has been

25 given, and they are cumulative in the sense of the ruling of the 7th of

Page 20193












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13 English transcripts.













Page 20194

1 April, that is, alleged attacks or killings by the JNA or paramilitary

2 forces. The statements will be admitted under Rule 92 bis.

3 Apart from two witnesses, C-1089 and 1162, all concern or mention

4 the activities and conduct of the JNA about which the accused has raised

5 an issue for the Trial Chamber to determine. Therefore, apart from these

6 two, all the witnesses are required to attend for cross-examination.

7 The statements of C-1089 and 1162 concern arrests and detention by

8 Arkan's men. It has not been disputed that such arrests and detention

9 took place, and no crucial issue turns on the evidence of these two

10 witnesses. Accordingly, their statements will be admitted without

11 cross-examination.

12 The final matter I want to raise is this: Mr. Nice, it concerns

13 your application for more time. We've had your motion, and we've had a

14 response or observation by the amici. It may be helpful, since we're not

15 sitting next week, to schedule a procedural hearing on it, on the motion,

16 this week.

17 MR. NICE: A point of three points to which I was coming. We are

18 filing a very short reply to the document of the amici today, I hope by

19 lunch-time. There may be time this week for procedural argument even if

20 we deal with the witnesses who are listed for this week, because one of

21 them is going to be postponed, and I'm coming to that in a second --

22 JUDGE MAY: I think we should have it this week since we're not

23 sitting the next week so we can consider the matter next week.

24 MR. NICE: It may be that I won't be able to be here on Friday, or

25 I shouldn't be here on Friday, so Thursday might be a possibility.

Page 20195

1 JUDGE MAY: Thursday, Mr. Kay?

2 MR. KAY: No problems.

3 JUDGE MAY: Let us schedule it for Thursday. Find a convenient --

4 maybe the last session or something of the sort.

5 MR. NICE: The two other matters are these: The propaganda

6 expert, Mr. de la Brosse, is listed for this week. He has come with a

7 number of documents that will require translation for the French and for

8 that reason and indeed for possibly some others, I think it is desirable

9 that he should be put back until probably the beginning of the week

10 following the break. So that the list of witnesses will be as is but

11 without Mr. de la Brosse, and that indeed will probably free up enough

12 time for hearing on Thursday.

13 JUDGE MAY: So we can remove Mr. de la Brosse from the list. I

14 see we've got three fairly substantial witnesses anyway before we were due

15 to reach him.

16 MR. NICE: Yes. Although of course, we're going to apply or seek

17 to apply the provisions of 92 bis to abbreviate the evidence in chief of

18 at least I think two of them, or certainly of one. But that's the

19 position, yes, please.

20 And the last and separate procedural matter is this: The Chamber

21 will recall the 54 bis application, at the end of which a decision was

22 made with a two-month time limit on it. That two calendar month time

23 limit expires on Saturday. We are currently assessing what quantity of

24 materials, if any, have been provided in that two-month period, and I --

25 on the basis of the quantity of materials supplied, we will certainly need

Page 20196

1 a further hearing.

2 I understand that documents are being prepared by the other party

3 to that application now, and I'm not sure, because I simply don't know,

4 whether that is simply a report or whether it's a report with

5 documentation being provided right at the end of the two-month period,

6 which would be less helpful and less appropriate than to have provided it

7 as soon as it became available.

8 But one way or another, we would like to arrange for a very early

9 return date to that application because of the pressures of time and the

10 absolute need we now have to secure documentation of the kind listed in

11 the original application, and would ask the Chamber to consider having a

12 hearing in the beginning of the week after the break, if that's possible.

13 We hope to file a report ourselves, whether with or without sight of

14 whatever the respondents to that application are preparing this week.

15 JUDGE MAY: Obviously we'll consider that when the matter is

16 reported to us. If you could give as full a report as possible.

17 MR. NICE: If we get our document in before the weekend, even if

18 the respondents exercise their right to put things right up to the

19 deadline, Friday afternoon or whatever it may be - or next Monday, I

20 suppose - we hope that our document will assist in the need for an early

21 return date.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 MR. NICE: Mr. Groome will take the next witness.

24 JUDGE MAY: Call the next witness. The legal officer, please.

25 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

Page 20197

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, as a preliminary matter, Witness B-1461

10 will give his entire testimony in open session. He will be referring to

11 sexual crimes against a number of victims. I will not elicit those names

12 during my examination of him, but should they become relevant or should

13 anyone seek to ask the identity, I would ask that the identities of those

14 victims be taken in closed session.

15 Examined by Mr. Groome:

16 Q. B-1461, I would ask you to take a look at this piece of paper.

17 And if it could please be assigned an exhibit number, the pseudonym

18 sheet.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecution Exhibit 437 under seal.


21 Q. I'd ask you to take a look at the name printed on the top of that

22 sheet. Is that your name?

23 A. That's right, yes.

24 Q. For the purposes of protecting your identity, I will refer to you

25 as B-1461 during the course of my questions to you.

Page 20198

1 Sir, I'd ask you to begin your testimony today by telling us from

2 where -- where were you born and where did you grow up?

3 A. I was born in the Zvornik municipality, and the place is called

4 Divic, where I went to school and worked and lived until the beginning of

5 the war.

6 Q. Can you give us some idea regarding the size of the village of

7 Divic.

8 A. The village had a population of -- that is to say about 300 houses

9 and approximately two and a half thousand inhabitants. It's a small

10 place.

11 Q. What is your ethnicity?

12 A. I'm a Muslim.

13 Q. And would you -- was there a predominant ethnic group that lived

14 in the village of Divic?

15 A. The majority were Muslims. One Serbian family, and five from

16 mixed marriages with Muslims, that were ethnic Serbs married to Muslims.

17 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the geography of Zvornik.

18 Would I be correct in saying that the town of Zvornik itself lies on the

19 western bank of the Drina River?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And is the town of Zvornik and in fact all of Zvornik municipality

22 in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or at that time?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Are you familiar with the town of Mali Zvornik?

25 A. Yes.

Page 20199

1 Q. Can you describe to the Chamber where Mali Zvornik is with respect

2 to Zvornik itself.

3 A. Mali Zvornik is located in the Republic of Serbia, right up on the

4 border with Bosnia-Herzegovina, across the Drina River.

5 Q. And would it be fair to say that Mali Zvornik lies directly across

6 -- Mali Zvornik in Serbia lies directly across from Zvornik in Bosnia?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are there ways to cross the Drina between Zvornik and Mali

9 Zvornik?

10 A. Yes; across the bridges.

11 Q. And how many bridges connect those two different municipalities?

12 A. In the municipality of Zvornik, three bridges.

13 Q. And in 19 -- the winter and spring of 1992, were there border

14 controls on those bridges?

15 A. Yes, prior to the beginning of the war.

16 Q. Now, could I ask you to describe, where is Divic with respect to

17 the town of Zvornik?

18 A. Divic is 2.5 kilometres from the town of Zvornik, in the direction

19 of Sarajevo, on the Sarajevo road.

20 Q. And how far away is the village of Divic from the River Drina

21 itself?

22 A. Well, it lies on the Drina River, on the banks.

23 Q. Can somebody in the village of Divic look across the Drina and

24 into Serbia?

25 A. Yes, with boats.

Page 20200

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, do you think we can get the year of his

2 birth --

3 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE KWON: -- in open session.

5 MR. GROOME: Yes.

6 Q. Sir, could you please tell us the year of your birth.

7 A. My date of birth. Do you want the year or the --

8 Q. Simply the year.

9 A. -- day or -- 1967.

10 Q. Now, I think there was some misunderstanding or mistranslation of

11 my last question. My question to you was, can you see across, not

12 necessarily cross the river, but can you see across into Serbia from the

13 village of Divic?

14 A. Yes, you can see it, yes.

15 Q. I want to draw your attention to the spring of 1992, more

16 specifically March of 1992. Did you notice anything unusual occurring in

17 Serbia across from your village of Divic?

18 A. Yes, I did notice something. I noticed artillery weapons that had

19 been positioned on the opposite side of the river.

20 Q. Can you give us some idea about the quantity and size of these

21 weapons that you could see.

22 A. There were anti-aircraft armoured vehicles and somewhat fewer

23 tanks. That was to begin with. Later on, there were others too.

24 Q. And approximately how many tanks did you see in March of 1992?

25 A. About ten.

Page 20201

1 Q. And were the artillery and tanks, were they directed in any

2 particular direction?

3 A. All the barrels were directed towards the Bosnian side.

4 Q. Now, prior to you seeing this build-up or this placement of

5 artillery and tanks in Serbia, did -- was there any violence that you were

6 aware of in your village or in the surrounding area to your village?

7 A. No, there wasn't.

8 Q. Did the people of Divic do anything in response to seeing these

9 weapons across the river?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Was there a rally in early April 1992 in the village of Divic?

12 A. The rally was held in the town of Zvornik.

13 Q. And did you attend that rally?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what was the purpose of that rally?

16 A. The purpose of the rally was for people to continue their normal

17 lives, living the way they had before and to avoid a war or anything like

18 that.

19 Q. After that rally, did the people of Divic form a Crisis Staff and

20 begin to make some preparations for the defence of their village?

21 A. When they noticed the barricades and when they felt that a war

22 would take place, they began to organise themselves and set up a Crisis

23 Staff in the village of Divic.

24 Q. Can you describe what if any weapons this Crisis Staff or the

25 people who had prepared to defend themselves in Divic had.

Page 20202

1 A. In the Crisis Staff, there was about 18 to 20 rifles. Some were

2 privately owned, some were obtained from the local community or

3 municipality, or I don't know how it came about.

4 Q. Are you familiar with the location named Kula Grad in the

5 municipality of Zvornik?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you assist the Chamber by describing where Kula Grad is with

8 respect to the town of Zvornik.

9 A. Kula Grad is situated on an elevation above the town of Zvornik.

10 Q. And is Kula Grad in Serbia or in Bosnia?

11 A. In Bosnia.

12 Q. Did there come a time when you saw Kula Grad being shelled?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What is your best recollection of the time period during which

15 Kula Grad was shelled?

16 A. The tanks fired shells on Kula Grad from the Serb side around the

17 hydroelectric power plant.

18 Q. And can you assist the Chamber in giving the date or the dates to

19 the best of your recollection when this occurred?

20 A. It occurred in April, after the fall of Zvornik.

21 Q. And did you yourself see the shells coming from Serbia and hitting

22 Kula Grad?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Around this same period did you see something in the Drina that

25 indicated to you that there were -- there was violence elsewhere in

Page 20203

1 Zvornik?

2 A. Yes. We noticed some corpses flowing down the Drina River. There

3 were some dead people and some livestock, things like that.

4 Q. Can you approximate the number of corpses that you yourself

5 observed floating down the Drina River.

6 A. I don't know the exact number, but I think that we reported them,

7 and several of them turned up to take the people away. I don't know the

8 exact number.

9 Q. Are you familiar with the name Marko Pavlovic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How do you know this person?

12 A. I didn't know him before, but he used to come to Divic, to the

13 Crisis Staff for negotiations, and he asked that the weapons be handed

14 over. The first time he came was with a man who had an agreement with

15 someone from Serbia to go and buy some cigarettes, and the Serb army

16 arrested him, brought him in, and he came with Marko Pavlovic. And from

17 the Crisis Staff, I learnt his name, that his name was in fact Marko

18 Pavlovic.

19 Q. How many times did you see this person Marko Pavlovic in the

20 village of Divic?

21 A. Twice.

22 Q. And can you approximate the times or the dates when you saw Marko

23 Pavlovic?

24 A. The last time was on the 22nd of May -- the 22nd of April, the

25 18th of April, that kind of thing.

Page 20204












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Page 20205

1 Q. You've testified that he asked that weapons be handed over. Did

2 the people of Divic hand over weapons to Marko Pavlovic?

3 A. No. First of all, they asked him to give us some sort of

4 guarantee, and he said that he could sign the guarantee but it was a

5 worthless piece of paper as far as we were concerned.

6 Q. What happened in response to the refusal of the people of Divic to

7 turn over their weapons to Marko Pavlovic?

8 A. How do you mean?

9 Q. What happened after this refusal? Did anything happen after the

10 people of Divic refused to hand over their weapons?

11 A. Nothing special.

12 Q. Did there come a time when the village of Divic came under attack?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When, to the best of your recollection, did that occur?

15 A. That was sometime around the 26th of April, after the fall of Kula

16 Grad.

17 Q. Can I ask you, what -- how did the attack begin? What was the

18 first thing that you recall happening?

19 A. That morning when the attack on Divic started, they asked from

20 across the River Drina, that is on the Serbian side, they asked the

21 inhabitants of Divic to surrender their weapons. They said they didn't

22 have any more confidence in Kula Grad, and we were left on our own.

23 Q. And what happened?

24 A. And after that, the first attack followed from the Serb side,

25 started from the Serb side.

Page 20206

1 Q. Can you please describe specifically what occurred during the

2 course of that attack.

3 A. The beginning of the attack was at around 10.00, roughly, and it

4 went on for two hours. After that, there was a pause, a lull, and then

5 the attack continued for about an hour.

6 JUDGE MAY: The witness will have to clarify what he means by

7 that.


9 Q. When you use the word "attack," can you please be specific about

10 people involved, types of equipment involved. What exactly did you mean

11 when you used the word "attack"? What are your specific observations?

12 A. Well, I think the attack or, rather, the attack was launched from

13 the Serbian side with all possible means available, and this refers to

14 artillery, and the attack was on our place, Divic.

15 Q. When you say "artillery," did shells hit the town or village of

16 Divic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And were you able to see from where they were fired?

19 A. I didn't see all of it, but I did see the beginning.

20 MR. GROOME: Is that a convenient place to pause, Your Honour?

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will adjourn now.

22 Witness B-1461, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes. During

23 the adjournment and any others which there may be while you're giving

24 evidence, don't speak to anybody about it until it's over, and don't let

25 anybody speak to you about it, and that does include the members of the

Page 20207

1 Prosecution team. So don't speak to anybody about your evidence while

2 you're giving it. Could you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

3 We will adjourn.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.


8 Q. B-1461, we finished just before the break with you describing your

9 observations about what was occurring on the Serbian side of the river.

10 Could you please describe what your observations were with respect to the

11 attack occurring in the village itself.

12 A. Well, as I've already said, this attack was carried out by this

13 equipment of theirs or, rather, their artillery which was on the other

14 side of the Drina, rather in Serbia. There were snipers and light

15 weapons, and then I noticed later a personnel carrier which was moving

16 along the other side of the Drina River, that is to say in Serbia, and

17 which was coming close to our town.

18 Q. Did there come a time when armed people actually entered the

19 village of Divic itself?

20 A. Not on that day, but they came the following morning.

21 Q. And can you describe approximately how many armed people entered

22 the village the following morning.

23 A. I don't know exactly, but I think there was one unit that came and

24 that expelled people from their homes and ordered them to go towards the

25 hotel which was towards the end of our town.

Page 20208

1 Q. And what is the name of that hotel?

2 A. Vidikovac Hotel.

3 Q. The armed people that you saw in your village, could you describe

4 what they were wearing.

5 A. They were in camouflage uniforms. I don't remember the insignia

6 they had. I think it was the so-called tricolour flag. I don't know

7 whether it's the flag of Serbia, I can't say exactly. And they all

8 carried automatic weapons.

9 Q. Did you recognise any -- well, let me ask you this first: The

10 people -- the armed people that came into the town, were their faces

11 covered or obstructed in any way?

12 A. No, they weren't.

13 Q. Did you recognise any of these people as being from the area of

14 Zvornik?

15 A. No, I didn't recognise them.

16 Q. Did there come a time later that day when the men from the town or

17 village of Divic were assembled in front of the mosque?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. And upon whose instruction were they ordered to assemble there?

20 A. The army, the unit that came into the village.

21 Q. And approximately how many men were assembled in front of the

22 mosque?

23 A. Approximately 100 men.

24 Q. Were you among that group of 100?

25 A. Yes.

Page 20209

1 Q. What happened in front of the mosque at that time?

2 A. They asked for weapons to be handed over. I don't know how many

3 weapons they were actually looking for. And if we could not give the

4 weapons to them, then they -- then people were supposed to hand these

5 weapons over secretly, if I can put it that way, at a particular place

6 they said near the stadium.

7 Q. And were weapons handed over?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did they conduct a search of houses for additional weapons?

10 A. Yes, while we were in front of the mosque, other soldiers were

11 searching houses, looking for things in houses.

12 Q. I want to now draw your attention to the next day. Could you

13 please describe what occurred on that day.

14 A. The next day the army was replaced by the police and - how should

15 I put this? - they were on duty there after the military. They imposed a

16 curfew. It was from 10.00 or 11.00 in the evening until 5.00 or 6.00 in

17 the morning. Then we could go to the town of Zvornik with our personal

18 IDs, and then in town we got past passes which made it possible for us to

19 move about town. After awhile, we managed to get passes that were valid

20 in the Republic of Serbia, namely in Mali Zvornik.

21 Q. And who was issuing these passes?

22 A. These passes were first issued at the Drina Hotel in Zvornik, and

23 after that, at the SUP in Zvornik.

24 Q. And when they were issued at the Drina Hotel, who was the person

25 or what function did that person serve who issued these passes?

Page 20210

1 A. The person wore civilian clothes, and I don't know what position

2 this person held.

3 Q. With the pass -- were you yourself issued with a pass?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The pass that you were issued with, would it have allowed you to

6 have travelled outside the municipality of either Zvornik or Mali Zvornik?

7 Could you have gone further than those two municipalities?

8 A. I don't know exactly, and I didn't try to go further either.

9 Q. The Serbian police that you describe, were they members of the

10 local police force?

11 A. I think they were.

12 Q. Did there come a time when the police no longer appeared to be in

13 charge but they appeared to have been replaced by the army once again?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And can you give us some idea about when that occurred?

16 A. Around the 22nd of May. The police was replaced by the military.

17 I don't know the military people who came in, but they started creating

18 problems in Divic.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please be

20 asked to speak up.


22 Q. The interpreters are asking you to speak a little more loudly.

23 Could I ask you to describe in a little more detail what you mean

24 when you refer to the creation of problems.

25 A. Well, for example, they stopped women in the street and they took

Page 20211

1 away their jewellery. They drove away the cars we had. They went to

2 people's houses looking for money. They searched houses. They took away

3 everything they could take away.

4 Q. Now, from the period of time when the men were gathered in front

5 of the mosque and surrendered weapons until this time now in -- towards

6 the end of May, was there any armed resistance from the people of Divic?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did there come a time during this period when a number of buses

9 came into the town?

10 A. When this military came in after the police, they said to us that

11 we were not safe in that place and that they should move us out. They

12 told us that we had two hours. In the meantime, buses arrived, about 11

13 of them, and they said that they would transfer us to Olovo, to the town

14 of Olovo.

15 Q. And where is Olovo located with respect to Zvornik?

16 A. On the road to Sarajevo. It's closer to Sarajevo.

17 Q. And approximately how many people from Divic were placed on these

18 buses to be taken to Olovo?

19 A. About 500 persons.

20 Q. And did that include people of all -- of both sexes and of all

21 ages?

22 A. Yes; men, women, children of all ages.

23 Q. Of these 500, were they all Muslim?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was the bus able to reach Olovo?

Page 20212

1 A. Never.

2 Q. And did the bus have to turn around and return to Zvornik?

3 A. At Han Pijesak, we were stopped. We waited for about two hours,

4 and we were told that we simply could not go on, that there was some kind

5 of fighting going on there or whatever. Then they returned us to Zvornik,

6 and we were stopped yet again between Milici and Vlasenica where we spent

7 the night.

8 The second day, we arrived in Zvornik and we waited for about an

9 hour or two in front of the SUP building. Then they took us in the

10 direction of Tuzla. We came to an elevation or, rather, a place we called

11 Crni Vrh. That is where we were stopped yet again. We waited for about

12 an hour and then we were returned to Zvornik, to the Zvornik bus station.

13 Q. What time or when did you return to Zvornik after the second

14 attempt to leave?

15 A. Around midday, approximately.

16 Q. And what happened upon your return to Zvornik for the second time?

17 A. Upon our arrival in front of the bus station, the military men who

18 were there ordered us to get off the bus, all the men, that is, then they

19 separated us, that is to say those who were older than 60 and younger than

20 18, the way they saw it. Then they returned others to the bus, and those

21 who were not taken by bus were taken to the sports stadium in Zvornik.

22 Q. The men that were separated from the rest of the group, can you

23 tell us approximately how many men were in that group?

24 A. One hundred seventy-four.

25 Q. Now, were you taken to a building, a specific building near the

Page 20213

1 sports stadium?

2 A. Not far away from the stadium. Right by the Zvornik municipality.

3 This is the administration building of a company called Novi Izvor.

4 Q. And were all of the group of 174 men placed into that building?

5 A. Yes. We were put into a room that was too small to take so many

6 people.

7 Q. Did there come a time when you were addressed by the Serb mayor of

8 Zvornik?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is his name?

11 A. Brano Grujic.

12 Q. And what did he say to yourself and the other men in that room?

13 A. He said that the names of the people who were there should be

14 recorded, that we would get something to do, that we would go out to do

15 something, and that we should sign some kind of paper recognising the

16 government that came in or, rather, some kind of loyalty certificate.

17 Q. Did you sign such a certificate?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did other men in the building or in the room sign that

20 certificate?

21 A. I think that no one signed it. They didn't even ask for it later.

22 Q. Did there come a time when 11 men were removed from that room and

23 you never saw those 11 men again?

24 A. Yes. After awhile, after we had stayed there for about a few

25 hours, two soldiers came who explained they were looking for ten

Page 20214

1 homeowners who were supposed to accompany them on the search of their

2 houses, and then another ten, and that this would go on until they had

3 checked all the houses.

4 Q. Were you ever taken from that room to search your house?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How long did you remain in that room before you were taken from

7 it?

8 A. We spent two nights there, and we were there for about two and a

9 half days.

10 Q. You've described the room as being too small for the number of

11 people in it. Can I ask you in a sentence or two to give the Chamber some

12 idea about the conditions inside that room.

13 A. There was enough room for all of us to stand up. All of us could

14 not sit or lie down or any such thing.

15 Q. Were you fed while you were there?

16 A. Yes, we were.

17 Q. How would you characterise the amount of food that you were given?

18 A. Very, very little. I think there was some kind of spread to put

19 on bread, and I think that there was marmalade jam, whatever, there was

20 something sweet. Afterwards, a soldier said to us that we would get a bit

21 more food, after awhile that is.

22 Q. When you were taken from this room, where were you brought?

23 A. They told us to get out of that room and to board the buses that

24 were in front over there in Zvornik, and then they transferred us to

25 Celopek or, rather, the cultural centre at Celopek.

Page 20215












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Page 20216

1 Q. Now, Celopek is the name of another village or another area in the

2 Zvornik municipality; is that not correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the cultural centre, would you please describe the type --

5 what would be the ordinary purpose that a building called the cultural

6 centre would be used for in this area?

7 A. The bus station was where the cultural centre was. It was the

8 local bus station. There was also a store, and there was a restaurant.

9 There was a building behind this store, and that's where the cultural

10 centre was. There was a stage in the building, and behind this building

11 was a small room that was used as a toilet. And next to that building was

12 yet another restaurant, or a smallish room that was used as a restaurant.

13 Q. How many buses were used to move you and others up to the Celopek

14 Dom Kulture centre?

15 A. Two or three buses.

16 Q. And were -- were there guards, armed guards accompanying the men

17 as they were transported to the cultural centre?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And how many men altogether, approximate if you need to, were

20 transported from the room up to the Celopek Dom cultural centre?

21 A. One hundred sixty-two men were transferred.

22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution will be tendering a

23 binder of exhibits with four photographs. Could I ask that a number be

24 assigned at this time.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecution Exhibit 438.

Page 20217

1 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown - we'll

2 use the Sanction system, if it works today - that his monitor be set

3 accordingly.

4 Q. I'm going to ask that you take a look at the photograph before

5 you. It's Prosecution Exhibit 438, tab 1. Do you recognise what's

6 depicted in this photograph?

7 A. Yes. That's the building where we were detained, the first one.

8 You can see that it's a dilapidated building, the first one. It was used

9 as a toilet. The other one is the cultural centre, and then there's the

10 bus station and the restaurant and the store. The other one on the

11 left-hand side is this smallish restaurant or, rather, this smallish room

12 that was used as a restaurant.

13 Q. Would it be fair to say that in front of the building furthest

14 away from us in the photograph, that that is the road connecting Celopek

15 and Zvornik?

16 A. This road that you can see on the side is some kind of a small

17 road, whereas the other one is the main road that goes through Celopek.

18 Q. That's the road I'm referring to, the main road. Is that the road

19 that is visible at the back of the building, or the front of the building,

20 as it were?

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the answer.


23 Q. Would you please repeat your answer.

24 A. Yes, that's the road.

25 Q. Would I be correct in saying the photographer who took that

Page 20218

1 picture was standing at the back of the building or the complex of

2 buildings?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'd ask you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 438, tab 2. Do you

5 recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

6 A. What is depicted is the bus station, the building where the store

7 was, the restaurant, and behind that building was this cultural centre.

8 Q. And finally, Prosecution Exhibit 438, tab 3. Is this one of the

9 buildings that make up part of that complex where you were held?

10 A. Yes. That building was used as a toilet.

11 Q. For how long were you detained in the Dom Kulture centre at

12 Celopek?

13 A. About a month.

14 Q. Are you familiar with a person by the name of Dusan Repic?

15 A. Before the war, I did not know this person, but during my stay in

16 Batkovic, I found out that this person who came to the cultural centre in

17 Celopek was called Dusan Repic.

18 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 438, tab 4, on

19 the screen in front of you. Do you recognise the person depicted in those

20 photographs?

21 A. Yes. That's the person named Repic.

22 Q. I'm going to ask you now to describe some of the events that

23 occurred while you were kept in captivity in Celopek, and let me begin by

24 asking you to describe generally the living conditions under which you and

25 the other men were kept during your period of incarceration there.

Page 20219

1 A. The conditions were more than bad. The first day we came we had

2 some kind of thin mattresses. We did not have enough water. We did not

3 have enough food. At the beginning we could go out to the toilet and we

4 could sit in front of the building, but then they forbade that too. The

5 first few days we didn't get food at all and then we asked the guards who

6 were there -- we gave them money and we asked them to buy something for us

7 to eat. They brought us very little food, and they never brought us any

8 change. This room had about 10 windows that were closed, it had two

9 doors. One door was always locked, and the other one that we used was

10 locked with a chain.

11 Q. During the times that these doors were not locked, were there

12 armed guards at the facility?

13 A. The guards were in front of the building. They were armed.

14 Q. Would it be fair to say that the building of the Dom Kulture

15 centre was on a road, a busy road upon which traffic frequently travelled?

16 A. Well, that's the way it was, more or less.

17 Q. Did there come a time when the people that were detained in

18 Celopek were forced to give up all of their identification papers and any

19 other personal documents that they may have had?

20 A. Yes. At first some of the soldiers, I don't know exactly which

21 ones, asked for us to hand over our belts and shoelaces. Then a group

22 came asking us for -- to hand over all our documents and everything we

23 had; money, jewellery, all the documents we had.

24 Q. The men that asked you to hand over the documents and everything

25 that you had, did you recognise them as being from the Zvornik

Page 20220

1 municipality?

2 A. I did not recognise them. I don't know where they came from.

3 Q. Were you able to identify their accents?

4 A. Their accents were Serbian, coming from Serbia.

5 Q. Did there come a time when fathers and sons were made to line up

6 and to record their names, identifying them as father and son?

7 A. Yes. That's what they were required to do.

8 Q. And who initiated this? Who -- who were the people that made

9 these fathers and sons identify themselves as such?

10 A. The person called Repic, with his group.

11 Q. Was your father detained with you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was your uncle detained with you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. During this period, did members of Repic's group interrogate some

16 of the men that were being detained in the centre?

17 A. There was another group there that came several times. Sometimes

18 they came together. I don't know whether it was exactly that group or

19 Repic's group, but people were interrogated, and they were asking for

20 weapons too. That's what they asked for more, for weapons, that is.

21 Q. And during the course of these interrogations, were some of the

22 people being interrogated killed?

23 A. The people who were taken out, I don't know exactly. Shots could

24 be heard. I don't know whether they were killed. They took out two men,

25 we heard two shots. After that, they took out a man to see what was

Page 20221

1 happening, and he told us that those men had been killed. Then he said

2 that if we didn't surrender our weapons, the same fate would befall us.

3 Q. This other group that you referred to, did you learn where they

4 came from?

5 A. We later learnt that these men came from Loznica.

6 Q. And Loznica is located in what country, what republic?

7 A. In the Republic of Serbia.

8 Q. Did there come a time when men in the building were subjected to

9 brutal treatment?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'd asked you to please describe --

12 A. Not once.

13 Q. I'd ask you to please describe what types of treatment you

14 observed while you were detained in that room.

15 A. I saw them asking for fathers and sons to get on the stage, to

16 take off their clothes, to strip, and to engage in oral sex using their

17 mouths and genitals. At first it had to be fathers with sons, and after

18 that, sons with fathers.

19 The people who applied, some were fathers and sons, others were

20 not. At first it appeared that the group was too small. Then they asked

21 or, rather, separated people at random, at will, sending them to the stage

22 and to join the others.

23 Q. Approximately how many pairs of fathers and sons were forced to

24 engage in this type of activity?

25 A. Two or three pairs of fathers and sons, but the total was about

Page 20222

1 eight to ten couples.

2 Q. And what were the other men in the building required to do while

3 this was taking place?

4 A. The other men were ordered to sit facing the stage, and they all

5 had to watch what was going on on the stage.

6 Q. What happened if one of the other men in the room did not look at

7 what was going on?

8 A. They required that they watch and follow the happenings on the

9 stage.

10 Q. Can you approximate for us, as best you can recall, when this

11 occurred, during what period of your detention?

12 A. This was roughly between the 10th and the 11th of June. That was

13 when we celebrate our religious holiday Bajram.

14 Q. Did there come a time when some of the men were forced to perform

15 even more violent acts against each other?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you explain.

18 A. They demanded that certain couples, certain men, bite off the

19 genitals of others. They asked men to show those penises. They actually

20 forced a man to show the penis he had bitten off and to swallow it. One

21 man refused to, but the other one did actually do it. And then they asked

22 one person to -- to push the broom -- the handle of a broom into the

23 behind of another man.

24 Q. In addition to these acts, were -- were men also mutilated with

25 knives?

Page 20223

1 JUDGE MAY: Before we get there, we should identify who it was who

2 gave these orders. It's described as "they," but we should learn more

3 detail who was responsible.


5 Q. I would ask you to answer Judge May's question. When you used the

6 word "they," could you please describe who specifically are you referring

7 to.

8 A. The group of the person known as Repic.

9 Q. And was Repic himself personally present when these acts that

10 you've described occurred?

11 A. Yes, he was present, and he took out those men and he demanded

12 that sons and fathers come out. He selected them. And all those

13 happenings, he was the one who gave the orders for them.

14 Q. Did there come a time when members of this group used knives to

15 mark the bodies of some of the men?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please describe.

18 A. On the stage, I don't think it was on that day, but on that day,

19 they killed men who were there. After that, the men on the stage had

20 their -- the meat between their fingers cut. They would stab the men's

21 thighs, and they would stab people's hands.

22 Q. You yourself, were you subjected to any of this treatment?

23 A. Yes. They stabbed through one hand. The other one, the knife

24 didn't go right through.

25 Q. And do you know the identity of the person who -- or the name of

Page 20224

1 the person who stabbed you in your hands?

2 A. I don't know his proper name but he was a large man, rather heavy

3 but not tall.

4 Q. Was he a member of the Repic's group?

5 A. I don't know exactly because they never all came together.

6 Sometimes there would be two groups together, sometimes three, sometimes

7 only one, but they were not always the same group of people.

8 Q. In addition to the treatment that you've described for us, were

9 there also times when random shots were fired into the group?

10 A. Yes. On that day, when they demanded that sons and fathers come

11 out to do what they did, Repic was armed with a small calibre rifle, and

12 he shot at people, who did not survive, that is, the people Repic hit.

13 Q. During your entire stay at Celopek, on approximately how many

14 occasions did this type of treatment of the people detained there occur?

15 A. You mean killings or --

16 Q. The sexual abuse and the killings. On approximately how many

17 different occasions?

18 A. The sexual abuse happened on that one day, and the killings

19 happened on two days or, rather, several men were killed on two occasions.

20 Q. Were members of the group also made to have fistfights with each

21 other?

22 A. Yes, that is true.

23 Q. Was your father one of the people that was ordered to -- to have a

24 fistfight?

25 A. Yes. He was also ordered to come out, and he had his pair who was

Page 20225

1 his next door neighbour, and before they were ordered to do this, they

2 said that they would beat them if they refused to fight one another. And

3 as they simply couldn't hit each other, then they beat them. So then this

4 neighbour was in a coma for two days. After that, he passed away, whereas

5 my father was badly beaten up. He was black and blue all over from these

6 blows he had received, and he can't even remember everything that happened

7 to him.

8 Q. What ultimately happened to your uncle who you said was detained

9 in that building?

10 A. That first occasion, my two uncles did not survive. On Bajram,

11 that is the night between the 10th and the 11th, the two uncles did not

12 survive. One was dead and the other one -- his heart was still beating,

13 but he passed away. He was hit in the forehead.

14 Q. And what ultimately happened to your father?

15 A. He was killed too or, rather, he died in Celopek.

16 Q. Can you describe the circumstances surrounding his death.

17 A. On that day when my father lost his life -- this happened around

18 the 26th of June. I think it was the Serbian holiday, St. Vitus Day. I

19 don't know exactly. It happened in the afternoon, around 1600 hours. We

20 received the food, our rations, which we didn't manage to eat when Repic

21 arrived with an automatic rifle in his hand. He, as usual, demanded that

22 we talk about people he was looking for from Kula Grad to Zvornik. He

23 fired a burst not far from me. Three men fell from the shots. Two got up

24 wounded, not seriously. And this one who couldn't get up, he remained on

25 the ground. He came up to him and shot him with a pistol.

Page 20226












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13 English transcripts.













Page 20227

1 After that, he went on demanding that we talk about these people,

2 and then he opened fire at random at the people, and he started killing

3 them. Then there was one burst of fire, then another one. And on that

4 occasion, he killed some 20 men and wounded about 22 others. After that,

5 when he ordered that everything be cleaned up, I found my father lying

6 there, and I saw that he was no longer alive.

7 Q. During the course of your detention at Celopek, did a Serb friend

8 of yours come to the centre and have a brief conversation with you?

9 A. Yes. He was my school fellow. His name was Goran.

10 Q. Can I ask you to summarise what it was he said to you.

11 A. He called me out and he asked me whether we needed anything, and I

12 told him we needed water because we were short of it as we would get about

13 two canisters of water a day. Then I asked him to protect at least my

14 father, if he couldn't protect me, as I was younger. And then he told me

15 that he thought that what had happened would not be repeated and that the

16 SUP of Zvornik had intervened and that the key would be handed in to the

17 SUP of Zvornik and that from then on people would not be able to enter the

18 building as they had been doing up until then.

19 Q. Did there come a time when you were taken from Celopek and brought

20 somewhere else?

21 A. Yes. That second time when some 20 men were killed, maybe the

22 following day or two days later the rest of the men who were there,

23 together with those who were wounded, were transferred to the old prison

24 in Zvornik, and we spent about 15 days there.

25 Q. And did there come a time when you were transferred from that

Page 20228

1 prison to another location?

2 A. After spending time in the old prison in Zvornik, we were

3 transferred to Batkovic.

4 Q. And was that another prison camp?

5 A. Yes. It was a larger camp than the one in Celopek.

6 Q. And approximately when were you transferred to Batkovic?

7 A. Around about the middle of July 1992.

8 Q. And approximately how long were you detained there?

9 A. About a year.

10 Q. Can I ask you to describe for the Chamber the conditions at

11 Batkovic camp.

12 A. It was a building, quite a large building, which was used to store

13 seeds for agricultural purposes. The windows were closed, and they were

14 closed up with steel blinds. We slept on straw covered with a blanket,

15 and we had nothing to cover ourselves with. The compound had a wire

16 fence. We had a couple of water taps and one open toilet.

17 Q. And the people that were detained there, can you provide us with

18 some details about that, the approximate people that you were aware were

19 detained there as well as the range of ages and whether both men and women

20 were detained at Batkovic.

21 A. The age of the people, most of them were able-bodied. There were

22 two women at first - I think one was there with her husband - and then

23 they were taken somewhere. I don't know exactly where.

24 Q. And were you present when members of the Red Cross, International

25 Committee of the Red Cross visited Batkovic camp?

Page 20229

1 A. Yes, I was present.

2 Q. And can you describe what, if anything, occurred prior to visits

3 by the Red Cross.

4 A. Before they arrived, their arrival would be announced. It was

5 announced a couple of times but they didn't come. But each time, before

6 they were due to arrive, old people over 60 and youngsters under 18 were

7 hidden, and a group that they called "special cases" were also taken away

8 somewhere. Where, I don't know exactly, but they weren't present when the

9 Red Cross came.

10 Q. Would they be returned after the Red Cross left?

11 A. Yes, they would be returned to the compound when the Red Cross

12 left.

13 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask at this time that a copy of

14 Prosecution Exhibit 336, pages 28 and 29, be placed on the overhead

15 projector.

16 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to take the pointer at your right hand.

17 Do you recognise what is depicted on this map, this copy of Prosecution

18 Exhibit 336?

19 A. It is a map of a part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is not

20 complete. And I recognise my signature.

21 Q. I ask the director to zoom in on the right hand portion on that

22 page. You will see some red circles.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "Handwriting" not

24 "signature."

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is right.

Page 20230


2 Q. Sir, the circles on the page, did you make those red circles?

3 A. Yes, I did?

4 MR. GROOME: Can I ask the director just to zoom out a little bit

5 so we can see all of the circles. And that is good. Maybe we can adjust

6 the page.

7 Q. Are these the locations that you have testified about here today?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'd ask you to start at the top and please just point to the

10 different locations and just call out the name of each individual

11 location.

12 A. This place here is the place where I was born, Divic. This place

13 here is the place where I was detained for a month and where the killings

14 and sexual abuse took place. After that, we were taken to Batkovic, which

15 is here, not far from Bijeljina.

16 Q. And could I ask you -- you haven't circled it, but could you just

17 point to where the town of Zvornik is located.

18 A. Here it is.

19 Q. And you've referred to Mali Zvornik. Could you please indicate

20 that.

21 A. Here.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. GROOME: I'm finished with that exhibit.

24 Q. Sir, I want to return to Celopek for a minute. Could I ask you to

25 summarise for us how many men were killed that you saw? Could you

Page 20231

1 summarise for us with an approximate number how many men were killed at

2 Celopek during your detention there.

3 A. Approximately some 30 men. All those killings took place in the

4 room in which we were detained. As for the people that were taken out, I

5 don't know whether they were killed. I saw some of them, three or four of

6 them. As for the others, I never saw them again nor have I heard of them

7 since.

8 Q. And how many men who were detained there are you aware of were

9 subjected to sexual abuse of the type you've described?

10 A. Some 30 men.

11 Q. Now, after your release from custody, did you come to learn some

12 years later that Mr. Repic was the subject of a prosecution in the

13 Republic of Serbia?

14 A. Yes. I read that in a newspaper. I don't know exactly which one.

15 Q. And was the subject of that prosecution in part the crimes that

16 you've described for us as having occurred in Celopek?

17 A. Yes, that was the subject of that prosecution, and I think that I

18 read that he confessed that he had killed eight men. How the trial ended,

19 I don't know.

20 Q. And that prosecution was conducted in the Republic of Serbia?

21 A. Yes. Somewhere near Sabac, I think. In that area.

22 Q. Are you aware of the outcome of that case?

23 A. No.

24 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, is it a Defence Exhibit 56 which deals

Page 20232

1 with this? If you could check it.

2 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, I'll check.

3 JUDGE KWON: Defence Exhibit 56.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just have a look at the

6 number of this witness, because the witness was not protected to begin

7 with up until today. 1164; is that it?

8 JUDGE MAY: 1461.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1461. Right.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1461, let's clear something up first, this

12 key issue with respect to the crimes that took place and that you

13 described as having taken place in Celopek.

14 Do you know the name of the man whose nickname was Repic?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: "Pigtail" in translation.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I learnt about that name while

17 I was detained in Batkovic.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. And what was his name?

20 A. Dusan Vuckovic.

21 Q. Dusan Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic, right. That agrees with the

22 information I have. Do you know that this particular man was at the head

23 of a group of criminals, criminals who perpetrated a number of crimes in

24 the area that you're referring to?

25 A. No, I don't know about that.

Page 20233

1 Q. And do you know that it was precisely the authorities in Serbia

2 who got news of their criminal behaviour, this kind of criminal behaviour

3 that they engaged in?

4 A. All I know was that legal proceedings were brought against that

5 individual.

6 Q. Yes. That is the consequence of the fact that I've just

7 mentioned. Do you know that this man Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic or

8 pigtail, and as we saw his photograph, I assume he was called Repic

9 because he wore this pigtail, that he was a citizen of Serbia?

10 A. Yes. I learnt about that in Batkovic.

11 Q. All right. It doesn't matter where you learnt of it. I'm just

12 asking whether you know about it.

13 And do you know that it was on the basis of the facts that they

14 were citizens of Serbia, in fact, for which the authorities in Serbia

15 learnt they had committed some crimes on the territory of Bosnia, that

16 these people were in fact arrested? They were taken into custody by the

17 authorities of Serbia.

18 A. No, I don't know that.

19 Q. Well, do you know that these people were taken to trial at the

20 District Court in Sabac for war crimes, in fact?

21 A. I read about this for Repic in the papers.

22 Q. You read it in the papers. Right. Now, do you know that they

23 were tried as far as back as 1993 on the basis of the facts that,

24 following the Criminal Code of our country, war crimes are the gravest

25 crimes, considered to be the gravest crimes and that according to the

Page 20234

1 information that the authorities had, this man and his collaborators had

2 perpetrated those crimes, so he was arrested and he was tried precisely

3 for war crimes.

4 A. Well, I don't know why he was arrested, but it said in the papers

5 that yes, he was accused for having perpetrated the crimes in Celopek.

6 Q. All right. So you read about this in the papers, but we can find

7 the documents. I don't want to enter into that now. But you presented

8 some of the atrocities that you saw happen and experienced yourself. So

9 I'm not going to ask you about that because I think Mr. Groome asked you

10 about that at great length.

11 I just want to ask you whether you are aware of the fact that when

12 the authorities in Serbia learnt about these crimes, arrested those people

13 and took them to trial and tried them for war crimes.

14 JUDGE MAY: Well -- Mr. Milosevic --

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And we have documents --

17 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Don't interrupt. We have the papers.

18 We will have them recorded. It's thought they're D56. During the

19 adjournment, it may be that we can actually track that down.

20 So there's no point asking the witness about them. It's simply

21 something he read, whereas we have the papers.

22 Yes. Now, let's move on, if you want to, to another topic.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, precisely because I know that

24 the opposite side is well aware of the fact that these people were

25 arrested by the authorities of Serbia and taken to trial and tried for war

Page 20235

1 crimes, I don't then understand why this witness has been brought here to

2 testify against me, because the authorities in Serbia prosecuted the war

3 crimes that he has just described. But let's go back to the beginning --

4 JUDGE MAY: Have you any questions -- look, we'll hear your

5 speeches in due course. We're not here for that now. Now, as you've

6 said, this witness has come here and given very difficult evidence. So I

7 suggest you deal with his cross-examination as expeditiously as you can.

8 I take it there is no dispute about his evidence about what

9 happened in Celopek.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, as to what happened in

11 Celopek, the authorities of Serbia, on the basis of the knowledge they

12 had, arrested these people and the courts tried them. So I don't want to

13 go back to that topic. What I want to do is to go back to the beginning

14 of the testimony of Mr. B-1461 related to the issues he talked about and

15 the circumstances he described with respect to the attacks on the village

16 of Divic and all the rest of it.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. 1461, was there a political party that acted in an organised

19 fashion in Divic?

20 A. I'm not a politician. I don't really know whether there was a

21 political party, but as far as I know, I don't think there was.

22 Q. From this may I take it that you were never a member of a party at

23 all?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Did you hear about the organisation of the Patriotic League that

Page 20236

1 had its representatives in Divic? Just give me a yes or no answer.

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right. Fine. At the beginning, in response to a question

4 from Mr. Groome, you said that in Zvornik a rally was held which was

5 devoted to peace, life together, and some positive goals taken by and

6 large, if I can put it that way.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When was the meeting held?

9 A. Roughly around the 7th of April.

10 Q. The 7th of April? That means just one day after the recognition

11 of Bosnia-Herzegovina's independence; is that right?

12 A. Well, I don't know when it was recognised exactly.

13 Q. On the 6th of April. And then the rally was held in Zvornik on

14 the 7th of April for a life together with no ethnic conflicts and so on.

15 Well, in your opinion, would you say that the population of Zvornik had

16 opted to preserve Yugoslavia and a life of communality within Yugoslavia?

17 A. At the rally, yes, we could see that people were in favour of life

18 together and for peace, a life in common and conditions of peace.

19 Q. Does that mean then that the people of Zvornik, both Muslims and

20 Serbs alike who had lived there, were opposed to the SDA positions and

21 Alija Izetbegovic who favoured the separation of Bosnia from Yugoslavia,

22 its secession and everything else that happened and led up to the crisis

23 that occurred?

24 A. Well, I don't know what they were in favour of, but they were in

25 favour of peace, and they said they didn't need any kind of war and that

Page 20237

1 quite simply people wanted to live a peaceful life, like they did before.

2 Q. Well, I do believe that. I believe that people strove to ensure

3 that, because anybody normal would be in favour of peace.

4 You say that the war in Zvornik - and you say this on page 2 of

5 your statement, paragraph 5 - began on the 8th of April. So on the 6th of

6 April Bosnia and Herzegovina was given recognition, on the 7th of April

7 you held a rally in favour of a life together, and the conflict broke out

8 on the 8th of April; is that it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Well, then, who created that conflict? Who caused the conflict?

11 A. I wasn't there, nor do I know who caused it.

12 Q. All right. Do you know that it was at the multi-party elections

13 that came before all these events the Serbs won the majority in Zvornik,

14 the SDS party in fact, that they had the majority vote?

15 A. I know nothing about politics, and I was not a politician of any

16 kind, and I think you would have to ask one of the politicians that

17 question.

18 Q. All right. Fine. I'm asking you because you can't tell me who

19 caused the crisis. Does it seem to you to be logical that the Serbs who

20 had the authority in Zvornik, that it was up to them --


22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. -- to win over power and authority if they had already had it?

24 JUDGE MAY: He's given you his answer to this. He's not involved

25 in it, it's pointless to ask him further questions, particularly of that

Page 20238












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13 English transcripts.













Page 20239

1 sort. And it may not assist us very much as to who started it. The real

2 point of his evidence concerns partly Divic, of course, but also about

3 what happened when he was in detention and the conditions which existed

4 there.

5 Yes. Let's move on.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what happened during his

7 detention I myself and the authorities in Serbia personally consider to be

8 a war crime, and those crimes were tried in Serbia ten years ago. So I

9 have nothing to ask him on that score as to the details, because to every

10 normal man -- everybody normal would feel sick and feel sick listening to

11 the details that were put forward. It's enough to turn one's stomach.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Now, tell me this: The fighting for Zvornik, as you say, went on

14 for two days; is that right?

15 A. Yes, roughly.

16 Q. But you weren't there at the time. You were in Divic all the

17 time; is that right?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. You say in your statement that the fighting took place between the

20 Serb army and the Muslim inhabitants. Is that what you said?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right, then. These Muslim inhabitants, did they have weapons?

23 A. I don't know what they had, but I heard from people -- I heard

24 about it from people who came from Zvornik to Divic.

25 Q. Now, these Muslim forces, did they fight in an organised fashion?

Page 20240

1 Who was their commander? Do you have any information about that?

2 A. I have no information about that nor do I know whether it was

3 organised or unorganised. I don't know.

4 Q. Well, do you know whether in Zvornik a Muslim Crisis Staff had

5 been set up perhaps?

6 A. No, in Zvornik I don't know about that.

7 Q. You don't know about that. And do you know whether those Muslim

8 forces had any form of heavy weaponry?

9 A. I don't know that either.

10 Q. In your statement, you say that in the fighting in Zvornik there

11 were no people who were wounded or killed, no casualties.

12 A. According to what the people who had come from there said, that's

13 what I heard.

14 Q. So there were no casualties; no persons killed or wounded.

15 A. I think in my statement I say that I don't know actually whether

16 there were any persons killed or wounded.

17 Q. Do you know who Dr. Rasim Juzbasic is?

18 A. No.

19 Q. He was a deputy in the BH Assembly and he was from Zvornik, that

20 is to say from your parts, but you say you don't know him.

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. Do you know who Izet Mehinagic is?

23 A. I worked in the field, I went round to do my job, so I don't

24 really know the people from the municipality that well.

25 Q. All right. But do you know -- you read the papers, I assume, and

Page 20241

1 listened to the radio. Do you know that these two people at a press

2 conference held in Tuzla - and that took place on the 10th of April, 1992,

3 and it was published by the Sarajevo daily Oslobodjenje -- I assume you

4 read the daily papers, Sarajevo Oslobodjenje - said that they had just

5 come from Zvornik and that the Serb forces had a lot of casualties,

6 wounded and killed, and that the Muslim forces, up until their departure,

7 had about 15 persons injured and one person killed. That's what they

8 said, according to the writings of the Oslobodjenje paper.

9 A. I don't know about that.

10 Q. But that does not coincide with what you learnt about and what you

11 testified about; is that right?

12 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. All right. Then tell me this: If there were armed conflicts

15 indeed and if they went on for two days, does that mean that there were

16 two sides shooting at each other, at one another?

17 A. Well, I don't know exactly what the conflicts were, whether they

18 were clashes between two parties, two sides, or what. I really can't say.

19 Q. All right, Mr. 1461. You say that the conflicts between the Serb

20 army and the Muslim citizens in Zvornik, that's how you refer to them.

21 Now, this Serbian army, can we call it the citizens of Zvornik of Serb

22 ethnicity?

23 A. Well, we could put it that way too. I don't know who those people

24 were actually, the people who came from Zvornik who informed us about that

25 either, of the events in Zvornik. They didn't know who --

Page 20242

1 Q. You didn't know them or they didn't know? Well, in Zvornik, was

2 it not a conflict between the Serbs and Muslims or, rather, wasn't this

3 part of the civil war that had started after the recognition of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the beginning of the attack on the army throughout

5 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Wasn't that it?

6 A. I don't know why the conflict broke out.

7 Q. All right. Fine. Can you testify at all about anything linked to

8 these conflicts in Zvornik, because as you yourself say now and in your

9 statement that when all this was going on, all this fighting was going on,

10 you never actually left Divic; is that right?

11 A. Well, I was there until I left, until they moved us out.

12 Q. So you saw nothing that actually went on in Zvornik?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So everything you're telling us is on the basis of what you heard;

15 is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, who brought this information to you from Zvornik? Can

18 you give us a name and surname of the person who told you about all this?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Were they some locals who came to inform you, or did somebody else

21 come from Zvornik to inform you about what was going on?

22 A. I think they were people from Zvornik.

23 Q. You were asked by Mr. Groome whether you came to the conclusion

24 that something was happening in Zvornik when you saw some corpses flowing

25 down the Drina River. Is that what you said?

Page 20243

1 A. He asked me whether I assumed that something was happening

2 somewhere else when I saw corpses flowing down the Drina River.

3 Q. Yes, but he mentioned Zvornik specifically in his question, and

4 you can check that on the transcript.

5 JUDGE MAY: We're now going to adjourn, but before we do, Judge

6 Kwon has the exhibit to which we referred earlier.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It was Defence Exhibit 56 under seal, which

8 seems to be a report of the district public prosecutor's office of

9 Republic of Serbia in Sabac, and it is a request to the District Court

10 investigating judge asking that an investigation is to be conducted

11 against Mr. Vojin Vuckovic and Dusko Vuckovic, also known as Repic. But

12 the report only deals with these killings, torturings, but it does not

13 mention about the sexual abuse. I think that's enough.

14 JUDGE MAY: Let me return that to the --

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE KWON: We can later get some indictment or formal documents

17 later, can we not?

18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution is in possession of some

19 of the documents, and whatever the Prosecution is in possession of we will

20 produce to the Court.

21 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Perhaps the legal officer would come up,

22 please.

23 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

24 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

Page 20244

1 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A document was mentioned a short

4 while ago that had to do with the criminal prosecution of the perpetrators

5 of these crimes.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. 1461, you said you only heard about this from the newspapers.

8 Were you perhaps informed of the fact that the attitude towards

9 paramilitary formations and such groups was generally the attitude of the

10 authorities of the government, that is, of Yugoslavia, of Serbia and

11 Montenegro?

12 A. I'm not informed about that.

13 Q. I'm just going to read something out to you, part of the order of

14 the then Chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav army, Colonel General

15 Zivota Panic. This is an order dated the 1st of August, 1992. This is

16 roughly the time when this news could have reached the Yugoslav

17 authorities because it coincides with the time you have been referring to.

18 I am reading this out to you to ask you whether you knew anything

19 about that or whether you learned anything about it later, because I see

20 that in the meantime, you had been in a camp. Inter alia, I'm going to

21 skip all the explanations that come before hand and I'm now just going to

22 read the following: "I hereby order to the 2nd Army, and also could the

23 1st and 3rd Armies please be notified in cooperation with the Ministries

24 of the Interior of Serbia and Montenegro, immediately establish an

25 operative staff for following the situation on the ground and for taking

Page 20245

1 all measures to stop the activity of individuals, groups, and all other

2 paramilitary formations."

3 I'm asking the interpreters whether this should be read out again.

4 The English booth said it's not necessary for now. All right. Very well.

5 I continue reading: "According to one's assessments, these staffs

6 should be set up in towns and garrisons that are in the directions facing

7 the border crossings towards Bosnia-Herzegovina and, if necessary, within

8 one's area of responsibility. The units should be made capable of rapid

9 deployment and action for controlling territory on all important

10 intersections and directions that are carried out from the territory of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Joint checkpoints should be established and also

12 mobile patrols should be established and should be given concrete

13 assignments. All mobile units of the army of Yugoslavia and of the

14 Ministries of the Interior -" it is Serbia and Montenegro that are being

15 referred to - "should be announced in a timely fashion. Unannounced

16 groups should be stopped, asked to show their IDs, and disarmed. One

17 should bear in mind that these paramilitary units all use the army uniform

18 of Yugoslavia, and they are prone to violent behaviour and crime, which

19 makes it necessary to be cautious and to act efficiently, including the

20 use of firearms."

21 So that is the order of the Chief of General Staff that has to do

22 with this. So it's not only something that had to do with the

23 prosecutor's office, the authorities, the civilian authorities, but also

24 the military structures, that is to say from the top, from the General

25 Staff further down.

Page 20246

1 Also --

2 JUDGE MAY: Now, you're here asking questions. What is the

3 question for the witness?

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Did you have any information about that too --

6 A. No.

7 Q. -- Mr. 1461?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I would like to read part

9 of the order of the commander of the 1st Army, and that is relevant to the

10 1st Army.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE MAY: I can't see the point if you're reading out something

13 to a witness who has never heard of the order. He's not a member of your

14 army or anything else. So how he's supposed to answer to it, I don't

15 know.

16 You can call evidence about this in due course, but there's no

17 point putting it to witnesses who know nothing about it at all. So move

18 on to something else.

19 JUDGE KWON: And I think the document has been exhibited already.

20 If the Prosecution could tell us the number. The order disbanding the

21 paramilitary formations by Panic.

22 MR. GROOME: We're looking, Your Honour.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wish to point out, Mr. May,

24 that in these orders reference is made to the fact that these groups and

25 units should be stopped, asked to show their IDs, and disarmed. So that

Page 20247

1 is the order. And it should also be borne in mind that paramilitary

2 formations most often use the uniforms of the army of Yugoslavia and that

3 they include persons who are prone to violent and criminal behaviour

4 and --

5 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. This isn't a general debate.

6 This is a witness who is giving evidence about specific events. Now, you

7 can call your evidence -- it may be, as Judge Kwon has pointed out, that

8 this document is already in evidence, so there's no need to go over it

9 again.

10 Now, have you got any questions specific to this witness, or

11 otherwise we should let him go rather than detain him here longer.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. There are questions for

13 this witness that have to do with the rest of his testimony, but, Mr. May,

14 since these documents were not tendered, would you accept having them

15 tendered now into evidence, because they have to do the same thing from

16 the military point of view and from the police point of view. That is to

17 say the activities of the military and police of Serbia and Montenegro in

18 view of the activities of the paramilitary formations referred to here.

19 And also the way in which these paramilitary formations are being treated.

20 JUDGE MAY: At the moment, there is no connection with this

21 witness, and they can't be introduced through him. You can introduce them

22 through a witness who knows something about them. But there's no point

23 with this witness. Also, we'll check to see if these documents haven't

24 already been introduced.

25 Now, let's move on. Let's move on to another topic. We can

Page 20248












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Page 20249

1 return to the documents in due course.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, these documents have to do

3 with the phenomenon about which this witness is testifying, not the

4 witness himself. This has to do with general documents that deal with the

5 phenomenon that the witness is testifying about. So I believe that this

6 is quite a legitimate request to have these documents introduced into

7 evidence. And of course you can refuse to do that. That is up to you.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Move on.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I see from your statements that the Muslims from Divic established

11 a Crisis Staff. Is that right?

12 A. Yes. When they felt that something was happening.

13 Q. All right. Tell me, how many members did this Crisis Staff have?

14 A. Approximately three or four members.

15 Q. Were they from the Party of Democratic Action or from the

16 Patriotic League?

17 A. I don't know if they were in any party.

18 Q. Were you a member of the Crisis Staff?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So you don't know anything about the criteria according to which

21 Crisis Staff members were chosen?

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. As far as I can see from your statement, your Crisis

24 Staff was linked to the Crisis Staffs of other villages and towns; is that

25 right?

Page 20250

1 A. According to their statements, I think that once or twice they

2 spoke to the Crisis Staff at Kula Grad.

3 Q. In which way did they contact these other staffs?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Your Crisis Staff, did it have anything to do with the collection

6 of weapons?

7 A. I'm not aware of any such thing.

8 Q. On the basis of what you say on page 2, paragraph 6, you got some

9 weapons from Zvornik, didn't you?

10 A. According to their statements, something came either from the

11 local commune or the municipality of Zvornik, I don't know exactly.

12 Q. You don't know which persons actually brought these weapons to you

13 from Zvornik?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you know where these weapons came from? Do you know where they

16 originated from?

17 A. I don't know about that.

18 Q. How many such weapons were distributed in this way?

19 A. I don't know about that either.

20 Q. And do you know how weapons from Zvornik were brought to Divic?

21 A. I don't know about that either.

22 Q. And do you know whether weapons were sent to you from Zvornik at

23 their initiative or was it your Crisis Staff that had asked for weapons?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. And in your Crisis Staff, who was in charge of distributing

Page 20251

1 weapons in Divic?

2 A. I don't know who was in charge.

3 Q. Did you get any weapons?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In your statement, you say that your Crisis Staff organised

6 patrols; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How many such patrols were there?

9 A. Approximately perhaps three or four patrols.

10 Q. How many people made up a single patrol?

11 A. I think two respectively.

12 Q. And who was in charge of organising these patrols and these

13 military activities? You mentioned the name of Rasim Zahirovic.

14 A. Yes. He was on the Crisis Staff.

15 Q. Was he in charge of these patrols and military activities in

16 Divic?

17 A. He was the one who communicated with the people and this Crisis

18 Staff.

19 Q. All right. And who was it from the Crisis Staff or in the

20 organisation of the Crisis Staff that trained these members of these

21 groups that carried weapons? Who trained them to use weapons?

22 A. I think that there was no training. And who did the training is

23 something I don't know.

24 Q. Were you ever on any one of these patrols?

25 A. I was at home all the time.

Page 20252

1 Q. At home all the time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. And do you know whether during these patrols some of

4 these people who were on the patrols were in a position to engage in fire?

5 A. I'm not aware of any such thing.

6 Q. I see from your statement that in your village there were only

7 eight Serbs who lived there.

8 A. Yes, approximately.

9 Q. From a total population of 2.500?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'm asking you because Mr. Groome had asked you whether these

12 people who then left were Muslims. So practically your village was a

13 purely Muslim village almost. So they only could have been Muslims. And

14 what was the attitude towards these eight Serbs? Was anybody in charge of

15 watching them or checking on them in any way at that time?

16 A. I don't think that they had any problems because these are people

17 from mixed marriages who lived together with us.

18 Q. All right. In your statement you say that as soon as the fighting

19 stopped in Zvornik, the locals in Divic started fleeing from the village;

20 is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How many locals from the village of Divic left it?

23 A. I think that everybody left it, practically everyone.

24 Q. Everyone?

25 A. Yes.

Page 20253

1 Q. But on page 2, in the last paragraph, you say that after you had

2 evacuated your family you returned to Divic; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You did that because, as you say, you wanted to see what was going

5 on.

6 A. Not to see what was going on. I actually wanted to see what was

7 going on with the house.

8 Q. Was there some kind of obligation on your part for you to return

9 in view of the positions of this Crisis Staff of Divic?

10 A. None whatsoever.

11 Q. So you returned of your own free will. Did anybody else return in

12 addition to you? Because you say that all the locals had left.

13 A. I think that everybody got out. Perhaps a few people stayed

14 behind, and afterwards, almost everybody returned.

15 Q. And is it true that those who returned saw that nothing had

16 happened in Divic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, let's go back to Mr. Groome's question, the one that I've

19 already raised, and then we were interrupted. Something was going on in

20 Zvornik, and you saw that there were corpses in the Drina; is that right?

21 A. I did see corpses in the Drina.

22 Q. And this couldn't have had anything to do with Zvornik?

23 A. I think that these corpses could not travel upstream, they could

24 only move downstream.

25 Q. That's why I'm asking you, because Divic is upstream from Zvornik,

Page 20254

1 so it couldn't have had anything to do with Zvornik. So how many corpses

2 did you see?

3 A. I don't know the exact number, but we reported a few of them.

4 Q. How many did you see?

5 A. About 20 or 30. I don't know the exact number.

6 Q. All right. On the basis of what did you conclude that these were

7 Muslims who had been killed?

8 A. I did not say that they were Muslims, but I did say that these

9 were dead persons.

10 Q. So they could have been either Serbs or Muslims or both.

11 A. I don't know exactly who they were.

12 Q. On page 3, in paragraph 3 of your statement you say that a certain

13 Ahmet - I think it's Srndic - went to Amajic, a Serb village, to see an

14 acquaintance of his.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. He was supposed to guarantee Srndic's security so that the man

17 could go to Serbia to buy cigarettes. Is that what you stated?

18 A. That's what he agreed upon with this man from Amajic, that he

19 would help him buy cigarettes.

20 Q. Please. Could you clarify something for me in this respect: This

21 was happening at a time when, as far as I understood your statement,

22 expected an attack to take place against your village and when you said

23 that they were attacking Kula Grad, this fortification, that the village

24 was under siege, that the villagers were leaving it for fear of their own

25 lives, and this man Ahmed Srndic, through a Serb village, goes to Serbia

Page 20255

1 to buy cigarettes?

2 A. Since we were out off from town and we did not have any resources,

3 I don't know how they got in touch, but I imagine that they knew each

4 other from before and this Ahmet worked in Amajic, and I think they simply

5 agreed that they help each other out.

6 Q. So this must be the most passionate smoker I'd ever heard of.

7 Under all these circumstances, he reaches agreements to go to Serbia to

8 buy cigarettes. His village is under siege and there was shooting, and he

9 goes to Serbia to buy cigarettes.

10 A. At that time there wasn't any shooting.

11 Q. You say that Srndic was arrested on the way?

12 A. That's what he said.

13 Q. So how was he arrested when he returned to the village the very

14 same afternoon?

15 A. Yes, but he was escorted from the Zvornik hydroelectric power

16 station.

17 Q. And he returned to the village?

18 A. They returned him.

19 Q. You say that a certain Major Marko Pavlovic came with him.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that the name of that man or was his name different? Did you

22 hear anything about that?

23 A. I didn't hear anything about that, but the Crisis Staff people

24 said how he had introduced himself.

25 Q. Oh, so how he introduced himself. Introduced himself as Marko

Page 20256

1 Pavlovic and as a major?

2 A. Yes, Major Marko Pavlovic.

3 Q. And did you infer on the basis of that that he was a member of the

4 army?

5 A. He was wearing military uniform.

6 Q. And you say that he came to persuade the members of the Crisis

7 Staff to have the armed people from your village hand over their weapons.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did he explain to you why the surrender of weapons was required at

10 all?

11 A. He didn't give me any explanations.

12 Q. All right. Tell me, did anybody attack the village?

13 A. What do you mean?

14 Q. Did anybody shoot at the village?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was it?

17 A. Men from the other side of the Drina River, from Serbia.

18 Q. Very well. According to my information, it is from this location

19 that is called Kula Grad, which was a kind of fortified place where there

20 was a unit of Muslim forces, fire was opened from there on positions of

21 the army of Yugoslavia on the other bank of the Drina River.

22 A. I am not aware of that.

23 Q. Are you not aware of it or do you believe that it is not correct?

24 A. I don't know whether fire was opened from Kula Grad on Serbia.

25 Q. Very well. And how many people were killed in the village during

Page 20257

1 that attack that you described? Was anyone killed?

2 A. I think no one was.

3 Q. I see. So no one was killed. You say that two days after their

4 first arrival, this man who introduced himself as Major Pavlovic, he again

5 organised a meeting to discuss the same issue.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you attend that meeting?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And who did you get information from about those meetings?

10 A. From people in the Crisis Staff.

11 Q. Did he threaten or intimidate the people there? What was the

12 substance of that talk?

13 A. I don't know about any threats, but the content was that he

14 repeated the demand for weapons to be handed over.

15 Q. And do you know to what extent that Crisis Staff and the unit in

16 Kula Grad was armed, how many men they had under arms, under their

17 control?

18 A. I don't know that.

19 Q. But as far as I can see, they advised you not to hand in your

20 weapons. And then you say, "While Kula Grad was in Muslim hands, Divic

21 has nothing to fear." That would be roughly what you say.

22 A. That was their opinion.

23 Q. And you have no idea or information as to how many of them were

24 there nor that they opened fire across the Drina River on positions held

25 by the army of Yugoslavia.

Page 20258

1 A. No, I have no information.

2 Q. And could you then come to the conclusion, without having any

3 information, on what basis they were guaranteeing your security if you

4 don't know how many of them there were nor who they are nor what kind of

5 weapons they have? Because that would mean that should Divic be attacked,

6 they would be the ones to defend you. Isn't that right?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Let me not ask you any more questions about that then since you

9 say you don't know.

10 And those attempts to remove weapons were actually attempts to

11 resolve the problems that had cropped up in the area by peaceful means?

12 A. I don't know what kind of attempts those were.

13 Q. And the representatives of the Serb forces, that morning when

14 Divic was attacked, did they propose that you surrender your weapons? Do

15 you remember that?

16 A. Yes. They demanded that over the loudspeaker, speaking from the

17 Serbian side of the river, that we surrender our weapons.

18 Q. Was it clear to you then that this was because there was shooting

19 on the other side?

20 A. I don't know why they made that demand.

21 Q. Well, how then would they know that you were armed if you weren't

22 firing at them?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. So you didn't see anything connected to the opening of fire on

25 positions held by the army of Yugoslavia from your side?

Page 20259












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Page 20260

1 A. From our side, I did not see anything.

2 Q. But all in all, no one was killed in that attack?

3 A. No one.

4 Q. On page 4, in paragraph 4, you say that members of the Crisis

5 Staff fled from the village and took the weapons away; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did anything stay behind which the locals handed in later?

8 A. I think there was some private weapons.

9 Q. I see. Only private ones. And do you know the answer to the

10 question why members of the Crisis Staff had left? Why didn't they stay

11 in Divic like the other inhabitants?

12 A. I don't know why they left, but I do know why they came back,

13 because they were there when the weapons were handed in.

14 Q. Please explain to me: On page 5 of your statement, paragraph 1,

15 you say that while you were in the administrative building of the Novi

16 Izvor mine, some younger soldiers came, as you say, and asked that 10 by

17 10, as you said in the examination-in-chief go with them to search houses

18 to see whether there were any weapons there and to check out all the

19 houses. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But from what you said, your number of 174 went down to 164, 162.

22 Was that right?

23 A. The first time 11 men left and then another man was taken away.

24 Q. What happened to those 11?

25 A. They never came back. What happened to them, I don't know

Page 20261

1 exactly.

2 Q. And 162 of you arrived in Celopek?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you know the exact number?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How do you know the exact number?

7 A. Because there were 174 of us, 11 left, one was also taken out, so

8 that's the number that remains.

9 Q. Do you know a name nicknamed Pufta among those who mistreated you

10 over there?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Did you mention anyone else when you were talking to the

13 investigators as having mistreated you apart from these Repic brothers,

14 Zuca, and I don't know all their names. Do you remember anyone else? Can

15 you give us any other names?

16 A. Zoka, or Zokica, and someone who introduced himself as Major.

17 Q. On page 8, paragraph 8, you say that this Zoka and Major shot Izet

18 Hodzic in the knee and then ordered him to get lost and that he left and

19 never returned. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And who shot him in the knee; Zoka or the Major?

22 A. I think it was the Major.

23 Q. And tell me, how did Izet Hodzic leave if he was wounded in the

24 knee? How could he walk?

25 A. I don't know myself, but he did.

Page 20262

1 Q. Was he wounded in the knee? Was his knee hit?

2 A. It was.

3 Q. On page 8, in paragraph 1, you say that four Muslims who said to

4 this alleged Major -- was that a nickname?

5 A. That's how they called him.

6 Q. And they handed money to this Major and that they were released,

7 that three of them went to Serbia and one stayed in Zvornik. Is that

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know why these three went to Serbia and one went to

11 Zvornik?

12 A. I don't know that.

13 Q. And who let them into Serbia? Were those the same men who had

14 committed all those crimes that you enumerated in Celopek?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. So you don't know who let them leave your prison.

17 A. No. I wasn't with those men.

18 Q. Wait a moment. Then I don't understand. How can you explain an

19 event that you don't know how it happened?

20 A. I met those people when I left, when I was released after the

21 prison. And then they told me that they had been transferred to Serbia

22 and from there they went on somewhere.

23 Q. Do I understand you correctly that you met those people after you

24 left Batkovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 20263

1 Q. Tell me, please, about these men who mistreated you and mutilated

2 you and did all those horrors you described. Were they wearing any

3 uniforms?

4 A. Some were; some were not.

5 Q. And those who were, how many of them were wearing uniforms and how

6 many were not?

7 A. I think Zoka had a T-shirt with short sleeves, the Major

8 sometimes, and they had camouflage trousers. As for the others, they were

9 in uniform.

10 Q. The others were in civilian clothes?

11 A. No, in uniform.

12 Q. What kind of uniform?

13 A. Military uniform, whereas Repic had a special kind of uniform.

14 Q. What kind of uniform?

15 A. I don't know how to explain it. It's a special kind of uniform.

16 It's not camouflage like the army, it's a different kind of material. I

17 don't know how to put it. It was a little thicker, like a woolen

18 material.

19 Q. I understand it that you heard from someone that this group was

20 from Loznica.

21 A. Zoka's group.

22 Q. Who did you hear that from?

23 A. From people who were incarcerated in the Ciglana.

24 Q. I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

25 A. People who were held in the Ciglana of Novi Izvor.

Page 20264

1 Q. Tell me, were they wearing any kind of insignia on those uniforms

2 or the civilian clothes they wore or parts of clothing that they had on

3 them? Did they have any markings?

4 A. No. With the exception of Repic who had an insignia on his cap.

5 Q. And what was that?

6 A. The traditional Serbian insignia.

7 Q. And what is that?

8 A. In our language it's a cockade. What the real name of it is I

9 don't know.

10 Q. So he wore a cockade on his cap. Was it clear to you then that

11 this was a paramilitary formation of some kind?

12 A. I didn't know those men, and I didn't know who they were or what

13 formation they belonged to. I don't know.

14 Q. And when they came to Celopek, you had occasion to see what they

15 came in. Did they use a vehicle of some sort probably?

16 A. We were shut up and we couldn't see whether they came in a vehicle

17 or on foot. They entered on foot.

18 Q. Tell me how many people this group consisted of, this Repic's

19 group and this Major's group. How many men did it have?

20 A. I don't know exactly but roughly five or six of them would come at

21 a time.

22 Q. Five or six of them. I see. Please tell me, did you ever, while

23 in Celopek, see a single person that you could assume belonged to the army

24 of Yugoslavia or any kind of state body?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 20265

1 Q. Very well. Just a few more questions about your stay in Batkovic.

2 According to the information I have here, that camp in Batkovic was a kind

3 of collection centre; is that right?

4 A. There were about 1.500 men there from the surroundings of Zvornik,

5 Kalesija, Vlasenica and Bratunac and the surrounding localities.

6 Q. And who was in charge of that camp? Who held it?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Do you know which formation? Was it some army or some sort of

9 police force? Who were the people in charge of Batkovic?

10 A. The guards were military men, younger men. Later on, some older

11 men came, again in military uniforms.

12 Q. And tell me, please, how many times did you see representatives of

13 the Red Cross coming to visit the camp or collection centre or whatever we

14 like to call it?

15 A. The first time they came -- after the first time, I think they

16 came every 15 days, sometimes once a month, sometimes once a week. Up

17 until the end they came to visit regularly.

18 Q. You spent a whole year there.

19 A. Something like that.

20 Q. And if they came sometimes once a week, sometimes once a month,

21 sometimes once a fortnight, there must have been at least 20 visits over

22 the period of one year, maybe even more.

23 A. Yes, something like that.

24 Q. Is that right?

25 A. Yes, roughly so.

Page 20266

1 Q. Did you ever have occasion to talk to representatives of the Red

2 Cross?

3 A. I did not.

4 Q. And who spoke to them? Didn't they speak to the people who were

5 captives there, who were detained there, imprisoned there, whatever you

6 like to call it?

7 A. They did speak to some. They didn't speak to me personally, but

8 they would more often than not bring us gifts. For example, personal

9 hygiene kits, some clothing, cigarettes, and things like that.

10 Q. Were exchanges carried out of prisoners from that collection

11 centre?

12 A. Yes. I was in one of those exchanges.

13 Q. Could you please explain and describe how you were exchanged.

14 What was the actual procedure of your exchange?

15 A. I think it was through the mediation of the Red Cross, actually.

16 I was exchanged in Sibosnica, not far from Tuzla.

17 Q. All right. Through the Red Cross you were exchanged, you say. As

18 far as I understand from the information I've been given, everybody was

19 exchanged through the Red Cross. That's right, isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you have to sign anything, make a statement of any kind, give

22 some information to a Red Cross representative, your particulars, that

23 kind of thing, and then he intervened with your exchange? What did this

24 actual act of the exchange process look like?

25 A. Well, prior to the exchange, lists of persons were read out who

Page 20267

1 were going up for the exchange. After that, we would be loaded up into

2 buses and taken to the actual location where the exchange took place. We

3 then crossed over into Muslim territory.

4 Q. And who drew up the lists of persons to be exchanged?

5 A. I don't know, but the lists were read out.

6 Q. How many of you were in the group when you were exchanged? You

7 weren't exchanged alone, I assume. There were a number of you, I assume,

8 in one group.

9 A. Well, approximately 300 to 400 people.

10 Q. 300 to 400. Right. Now, in that one year that you spent in

11 Batkovic, how many such groups were exchanged numbering so many people?

12 A. I think that my group was the largest group that was exchanged.

13 Q. But how many groups in all? On how many occasions did the

14 exchange take place? Let me put it that way.

15 A. I don't know exactly. I know about one or two because I was in

16 Batkovic. As to the others, I don't know, I wasn't there to see.

17 Q. You were asked at the beginning of your testimony about geography.

18 That is to say you were asked to situate Zvornik, where Zvornik is and

19 Mali Zvornik, one on one bank of the Drina, and the other on the other;

20 that's right, isn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Serbs and Muslims lived in Zvornik; did they not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in Mali Zvornik, the inhabitants were also mixed, Serbs and

25 Muslims.

Page 20268

1 A. Right.

2 Q. Zvornik is in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Mali Zvornik is in Serbia;

3 right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And it was in Zvornik that the conflicts took place. That's right

6 isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you ever hear of any conflict in Mali Zvornik?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you ever hear of any mistreatment of Muslims by Serbs in Mali

11 Zvornik across the bridge dividing Bosnia from Serbia?

12 A. I don't know about that. I'm not aware of that, no.

13 Q. Let me just take a look at my notes, if I may take a moment.

14 Could you explain this to me, please, I didn't understand you very

15 well: You described a rally, a meeting that took place in your village,

16 and you say that the people or, rather, the local inhabitants rallied in

17 front of the mosque. You remember that portion of your testimony?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Well, I made a note of that here and said that about 100 people

20 had rallied together. I think that's what you said. So how come of the

21 2.500 inhabitants, only about 100 rallied there?

22 A. Well, I don't think everybody came to the rally.

23 Q. But not everyone, only 100.

24 A. There were just a hundred of them there.

25 Q. Well, what were the contents? What were the -- what was the rally

Page 20269

1 held in aid of? What was the rally's slogan?

2 A. The officer who was there asked that the weapons be handed over.

3 If they didn't dare surrender their weapons officially, openly, then he

4 pinpointed the stadium and told them that they could just leave their

5 weapons there and leave.

6 Q. And what was the upshot of that request? Did they indeed leave

7 their weapons?

8 A. Well, some weapons were handed over. I don't know about the rest.

9 Q. I forgot to ask you something with respect to Batkovic. Do you

10 happen to know whether anyone mistreated the detainees in the Batkovic

11 camp?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mistreated? Yes or no.

14 A. Yes, they were mistreated.

15 Q. Did anybody mistreat you in Batkovic camp?

16 A. Sometimes.

17 Q. What form did this mistreatment take?

18 A. Blows, slaps. And when they would count us, I'd get a baton, a

19 blow across my back, or when I was doing something, that kind of thing.

20 Q. But you don't know who held the centre.

21 A. No.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have ten minutes left, if you need

23 it, for this witness.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think I'll even need that

25 long.

Page 20270












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Page 20271

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You said, Witness, in speaking about the fact that there were

3 armed people in the village, that the police force was there. You

4 mentioned the police.

5 A. Which armed people are you referring to?

6 Q. Well, I've made a note of this. After you spoke about the rally

7 in front of the mosque and the demand that weapons be handed over, you

8 said that there was some sort of police there.

9 A. The police came after the army.

10 Q. Mr. Groome asked you what kind of police it was, a local police

11 force or what, and your answer was yes, that it was the local police.

12 A. They were wearing blue uniforms. I think it was the local police,

13 yes.

14 Q. Were they people who had come from Zvornik or was there a police

15 station in your village perhaps?

16 A. We didn't have a police station.

17 Q. And how many of those policemen turned up in your village?

18 A. I don't know exactly, but I would say roughly -- well, I don't

19 know how many, actually.

20 Q. All right. Tell me this then, please: You said that in the Drina

21 Hotel a person wearing civilian clothes was issuing certificates of some

22 kind or permits which would allow people free passage, and you said that

23 they could even go to Serbia.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you said that you yourself were given a certificate of that

Page 20272

1 kind.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you happen to have it with you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You didn't keep it?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you remember what it said on the certificate or permit? What

8 did it look like?

9 A. Well, it was an ordinary piece of paper, small piece of paper on

10 which -- I don't know the actual wording, but it said that the person

11 holding the piece of paper could move around the town of Zvornik during a

12 certain period of time, and the times were mentioned.

13 Q. Was there a title? Did it mention the name of the authorities

14 issuing the permit?

15 A. I don't remember that.

16 Q. Did it say the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik or the police station

17 of Zvornik, or something like that, the Territorial Defence headquarters

18 of Zvornik or anything else? Do you happen to remember?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Was there any title at all? Was there a signature on the permit?

21 A. No, I don't think there was a signature.

22 Q. So all it contained was your name and surname and it said permit

23 or certificate allowing you to move around?

24 A. It didn't say name and surname.

25 Q. What did you say?

Page 20273

1 A. It just said what it said, the words on the piece of paper. It

2 said: "This is to allow movement around the country with ID papers."

3 Q. So this was a sort of temporary permit or certificate which served

4 in place, in lieu of your ID papers, or not?

5 A. It was valid together with my ID card.

6 Q. With your ID card.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So it had your name, surname, and your ID card number?

9 A. No. All it said were the contents. Let me repeat again: "This

10 is to certify that there is free movement around town with ID papers,

11 valid ID papers." That's all, impersonal.

12 Q. All right. Tell me this: You told us here that the police was

13 replaced by some sort of army. What soldiers? What army?

14 A. They were people wearing military uniforms. Where they'd come

15 from, I don't know.

16 Q. Did they have any insignia or anything like that?

17 A. Most probably they did, but I can't say now what they were.

18 Q. You explained to us that you were taken in 11 busloads to Olovo

19 and stopped in Han Pijesak because you weren't able to proceed because of

20 the combat activities.

21 A. That's what they told us.

22 Q. Then they took you back to Zvornik, and you went out to Tuzla and

23 were stopped again because there was combat going on there too.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then they took you back to Zvornik once again, did they?

Page 20274

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. To the bus stop.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does that mean that the authorities wanted to send you to some

5 safe and secure territory?

6 A. That's what they told us when they wanted to deport us. They said

7 they would be transferring us and transporting us to Olovo.

8 Q. So you did set out in the buses, and you were returned because you

9 weren't able to reach Olovo physically or to reach Tuzla physically.

10 A. That's what they told us.

11 Q. Well, would they have any reason to bus you around, drive you here

12 and there, unless they were trying to actually transfer you to some other

13 territory?

14 A. I can't really say. I don't know.

15 Q. You said that Branko Grujic, the mayor of Zvornik, addressed you.

16 A. Yes, he did address us in the Novi Izvor building.

17 Q. Upon your second return; right?

18 A. Yes, when we were separated from the women and children.

19 Q. And what did he tell you on that occasion? What did he say to

20 you?

21 A. He said we should write down the names of the people there, that

22 we would go off on some work assignment and that we would sign a loyalty

23 oath.

24 Q. But nobody signed a loyalty oath of that kind, nor were you given

25 these papers to sign; is that right?

Page 20275

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Now, I'm not quite clear about this. How did you, from the

3 authorities in Zvornik where you were under their control and you had

4 contacts with the mayor of Zvornik, suddenly turned up in the hands of

5 this criminal group, group of criminals that perpetrated all the acts that

6 you described to us?

7 A. That's not clear to me either. I don't know how we ended up there

8 either.

9 Q. Well, who took you to Celopek? Who took you over and transported

10 you to Celopek? Did they come to Celopek once you were already there or

11 did they come and take you off?

12 A. We were escorted by the army and police to Celopek, and these

13 people would come to Celopek once we were there.

14 Q. So the people that perpetrated the crimes you told us about

15 appeared in Celopek once you were already there and incarcerated. That

16 means they weren't in Zvornik, and they didn't take you to Celopek.

17 A. No, they didn't. That's right.

18 Q. And what happened to the army and the police that took you to

19 Celopek? Did they go back to Zvornik? They returned to Zvornik?

20 A. I don't know where they went to after that.

21 Q. Well, who handed you over to these people? Was somebody there who

22 handed you over to those people who perpetrated all those offences later

23 on?

24 A. We were incarcerated there, and in front of the entrance as far as

25 we could see were armed policemen.

Page 20276

1 Q. And those policemen, that police, were they present when they

2 perpetrated the crimes you described to us?

3 A. They were outside the compound and sometimes would enter.

4 Q. Did anybody try to prevent any one of these people who were later

5 on arrested and taken to trial in Serbia, did anybody prevent them from

6 committing the crimes they committed?

7 A. Not in the hall. Outside, I don't know.

8 Q. Was any -- were any of the policemen in the hall? I assume that

9 that belongs to the Zvornik municipality, Celopek.

10 A. Yes, Celopek is in Zvornik municipality.

11 Q. Well, was anybody there from the police station in Zvornik?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Well, how many real policemen were there except for that group of

14 several people that you mentioned as being criminals? How many real

15 policemen?

16 A. You mean real guards?

17 Q. I mean the policemen you mentioned. I don't know who your guards

18 were.

19 A. Well, the police stood guard in front of the Dom, the centre.

20 There might have been four or five of them, six perhaps. I don't know the

21 exact number, but they were there.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you must bring this examination to a

23 close, but you can ask two more questions.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Please, just try and focus on this and try and give me an

Page 20277

1 explanation. What did that police have to do, those three or four

2 policemen who stood guard there in Celopek? What did they have to do with

3 the group who came to abuse you and mistreated you there? What were their

4 links?

5 A. I don't know what they had to do with each other or whether they

6 did have any connection at all. I know nothing about any of that.

7 Q. Well, were they present when these people abused you?

8 A. No, not when these people were taken out. They were outside,

9 however, when they were being beaten, when blows were struck. They would

10 come in sometimes into the hall, in the premises where we were shut up in.

11 Q. Well, did any of them try to protect you from the abuse?

12 A. Perhaps one or two men, they did protect. One or two, these

13 policemen who stood guard outside.

14 Q. Just one or two?

15 A. Yes, just one or two.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. May.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this

19 witness, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome.

21 MR. GROOME: Just two questions, Your Honour. But as a

22 preliminary matter, I have searched the records using the transcript and

23 I'm not able to locate that exhibit. If the accused would provide us with

24 a copy of that or allow us to copy the document and inform us whether it's

25 a document he received from us or from some other source, we will attempt

Page 20278

1 to do a more thorough search of the exhibits this afternoon.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, would you let us have that document and

3 we'll exhibit it. Should in fact we find that it has been exhibited

4 already, it can be deleted, but the safest course is to exhibit it now.

5 If you would give us those orders, if you would.

6 MR. GROOME: Can I ask, was this a document we provided the

7 accused or was this a document he got on his own accord?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did have the document, and I have

9 already handed it over as an exhibit here. I can find a copy of it. I

10 haven't got the copy with me now. I have these two copies of the orders

11 on the part of the General Staff and 1st Army which I quoted from and

12 which I also wanted to tender into evidence, but I think that Mr. Kwon did

13 actually quote the exhibit that I've already handed over. Of course we

14 can make a search to find copies and other documents referring to the same

15 case.

16 JUDGE MAY: We have -- we have covered the records of the court,

17 Sabac court. We have not covered, as far as I can see, the orders which

18 you referred to. Now, do you want those exhibited or not, the orders?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Hand them in, if you would, and we'll

21 exhibit them.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the Defence Exhibit dated the 1st of

23 August, 1992 is Defence Exhibit 129. And then the order dated the 2nd of

24 August, 1992 is Defence Exhibit 130.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

Page 20279

1 Q. Sir, when you were in Batkovic camp, was your name recorded by the

2 people who were detaining you?

3 A. You mean by the Red Cross. Yes, my name was recorded. They made

4 a note of my name and surname.

5 Q. And without saying your name, did you give them your true family

6 name and first name?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Now, it would appear from Defence Exhibit 150 -- sorry, Defence

9 Exhibit 56, the comments made by the accused, and your testimony that you

10 were in Batkovic for a year, it would appear that during the time this

11 case was being investigated, you were in Batkovic, and my question to you

12 is: During your time there, did anyone ever come and seek to interview

13 you about what happened at Celopek?

14 A. No, nobody came.

15 Q. Were there other people who were detained in Celopek that

16 subsequently were with you in Batkovic camp?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. To your knowledge, were any of them interviewed about the crimes

19 committed in Celopek?

20 A. I don't think so.

21 MR. GROOME: Nothing further.

22 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1461, that concludes your evidence. Thank

23 you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to

24 go.

25 And we will -- before you do, we will have to bring the blinds

Page 20280

1 down. Is there some matter, Mr. Nice?

2 MR. NICE: The next witness is a witness for whom the provisions

3 -- the application for provisions of 92 bis have been applied. It will

4 possibly be helpful to dispose of that application today so that we can

5 plan the better for the use of tomorrow's time.

6 The witness concerned has the benefit of some protection. He has

7 a story, an account to give that is extremely powerful in many ways and

8 one that any advocate would want to give in full, but the requirements

9 that we deal with matters expeditiously make it a suitable witness to give

10 via 92 bis for the majority of his evidence. There will only be a few

11 matters that it might be helpful to take live.

12 JUDGE MAY: The problem is we -- we have this moment --

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

14 JUDGE MAY: We have only just this moment received the statement.

15 It's very difficult to deal with it without having read it.

16 MR. NICE: I think there are two statements, an earlier one and

17 later one.

18 JUDGE MAY: Two, yes.

19 MR. NICE: We haven't on this occasion got back to the earlier

20 practice of paragraph numbering the paragraphs in the statements. May I

21 make this observation to assist in your consideration: In the

22 application, a very large number of the paragraphs in each statement are

23 identified as paragraphs that we would seek to lead in the ordinary viva

24 voce way. It would only be in respect of very limited parts of those

25 general paragraphs that I would wish to give viva voce evidence. Despite

Page 20281












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13 English transcripts.













Page 20282

1 the power of the statements made by this witness, I make the judgement

2 that it is appropriate to take his evidence briefly if the Chamber is

3 satisfied that 92 bis is appropriate.

4 JUDGE MAY: We will look at that.

5 Yes, Mr. Milosevic?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's the next witness, is it?

7 Just like the previous witness, I have understood that the opposite side

8 wanted it to come under Rule 92 bis and that that application would be

9 made today. I don't understand that practice, just as I don't understand

10 the practice that a witness who was -- whose name and surname was listed

11 is suddenly proclaimed to be a protected witness. This is, as the French

12 would say -- it seems to be a la mode at the moment, that everybody wants

13 to be a protected witness so that nobody can see their faces and that they

14 could come and testify under special conditions.

15 So I am categorically opposed to the fact that the next witness

16 come under Rule 92 bis, because the application was made today whereas the

17 witness is due to testify already tomorrow, which is quite unacceptable.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will consider your objection and the

19 circumstances.

20 Mr. Kay, is there anything, briefly, you want to say?

21 MR. KAY: I don't know if the Court wanted to hear from me now or

22 wait until you've looked at the papers. I can give a very short --

23 JUDGE MAY: In a sentence, what would be your submission?

24 MR. KAY: It isn't acts and conduct of the accused. It is

25 cumulative. Prosecution concede that there should be cross-examination.

Page 20283

1 It's the public interest element that the accused makes to the Court

2 concerning the hearing of witnesses orally. I don't need to expand any

3 further on those issues, having put it in a nutshell.

4 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We will consider that and give our ruling

5 in the morning.

6 JUDGE KWON: I think the transcript should say it is not the acts

7 and conduct of the accused.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. We will adjourn. Nine o'clock

9 tomorrow morning.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of

12 May, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.