Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23454

1 Tuesday, 1 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1244 [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examined by Mr. Groome: [Continued]

10 Q. Witness B-1244, when court adjourned yesterday, you had just told

11 the Chamber about a number of participants at a meeting on the 15th of

12 April. Can I ask you to continue your testimony by summarising the

13 discussions held at that meeting.

14 A. Well, among other things, what was discussed was the inclusion of

15 the group into the existing formation of the brigade which was in the

16 area.

17 Q. When you say "the inclusion of the group," what group are you

18 referring to?

19 A. Well, I'm referring to the group of those 30 men who had arrived

20 from Serbia and the 20 locals who were undergoing training, which makes a

21 total of 50 men.

22 Q. During this meeting on the 15th, was there any discussion about

23 the takeover of the municipality you are testifying about?

24 A. On the 15th of April, there was a discussion about the takeover of

25 power in the municipality for which I'm testifying.

Page 23455

1 Q. Did one of the participants in the meeting identify when the

2 municipality would be taken over by Serb forces?

3 A. One of the participants said that he had received from the

4 commander of the brigade information according to which the enemy forces

5 had a plan by which, within the space of 48 hours, they were supposed to

6 storm the town and take control of it and that he, together with members

7 of his own brigade, would prevent this entry within 48 hours at the most,

8 that is to say, over the next two days.

9 Q. I want to draw your attention to the person identified as number 9

10 on tab 3 of Prosecution Exhibit 476. Do you see the name that I'm

11 referring to?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did this person say with respect to the takeover of the

14 municipality?

15 A. That person said that -- actually, the meeting took place in the

16 evening hours of the 15th of April, and he said that he had just come from

17 the place that is under number 8 here where he had attended a meeting with

18 the commander, the brigade commander - and on this list he is under number

19 19 - and that the commander had just told him at that meeting from which

20 he was coming, that he told him that.

21 Q. And the commander was a commander of a unit of the Yugoslav

22 People's Army; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's right. He was the commander of a unit which was

24 called -- actually, the name of the unit is under number 19 here.

25 Q. Now, did there come a time when this plan to take over the

Page 23456

1 municipality was implemented? Was it implemented two days later?

2 A. Yes, it was implemented during the night between the 16th and 17th

3 of April, 1992.

4 Q. And can you please describe what you know about the takeover that

5 night.

6 A. What I can tell you is this: I was right nearby, close to the

7 town, at about two to three kilometres away from it, and I saw --

8 actually, during the night I received from the brigade commander a

9 document with his stamp and signature containing the action plan, and I

10 was also able to see, sometime around midnight, several soldiers wearing

11 camouflage uniforms. Mostly they were people from this group that was

12 undergoing training, but they were in the place I was, and they continued

13 their masking and camouflage, their preparations, in fact, and from there

14 they left for the town itself once they had masked themselves. And

15 afterwards, maybe two hours later, shooting could be heard from infantry

16 weapons, there were several explosions that resounded, and this went on

17 for perhaps -- well, between half an hour - or, rather, up until 1.00

18 a.m., about one hour. And in the early morning hours, a vehicle came to

19 fetch me, and I was told to get into the car and to come into the town

20 itself.

21 Q. Now, yesterday in your testimony you referred to special units,

22 about 30 men from the Serbian state security service associated with

23 Frenki Simatovic. Did they participate in the takeover of the

24 municipality?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23457

1 Q. What role did they play?

2 A. Well, they played a significant role in the takeover of power.

3 They were within the composition of the unit, part of it, part of unit

4 number 19 on this list. They were part of that unit.

5 Q. Now, yesterday you mentioned four detachments, units of the

6 Yugoslav People's Army. My question to you is did they participate in the

7 takeover, and if so, what role did they play?

8 A. All of them took part in one way or another. Those who weren't in

9 the immediate vicinity of the town were at other positions, and the

10 detachment itself, which was -- which was composed of people from town, it

11 took part too. And so did another detachment, or parts of another

12 detachment which were stationed close by, almost right up by the town

13 where the main operations were being conducted that particular night.

14 Q. What role, if any, did local members, local Serb members of the

15 police force of the municipality play in the takeover?

16 A. During that night, as far as I know, they had no role at all.

17 They came onto the scene the following day, somewhere towards afternoon.

18 They began to rally and go about their duties.

19 Q. Now, during and after the takeover, were non-Serb prisoners kept

20 and detained in and around the municipality?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you please describe for us, briefly, the different locations

23 that were used to detain these people.

24 A. At first, the premises of the police station were used in town.

25 After that, when the number of detainees began to increase, other

Page 23458

1 buildings were used too, such as the building across the road from the

2 police station which belonged to the Territorial Defence, the TO as it was

3 called. And then later on, several days later, they resorted to another

4 building. It was the gym of the primary school and also the gym hall of

5 the secondary school in town.

6 Q. Did the local Crisis Staff approve of the use of these facilities

7 to detain non-Serb prisoners?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you give the Chamber some idea about the number of people

10 detained, as well as their age and sex?

11 A. Well, at this point in time I can't tell you exactly how many

12 people had been detained, but I think that there were several hundred.

13 Non-Serbs, that is. They were males. Croats and Muslims that means.

14 Some of them were members of armed Muslim and Croatian formations, which

15 means that some of them, in the course of that night, were captured and

16 taken prisoner, the night between the 16th and the 17th, and the rest were

17 taken into custody and detained on the basis of information received from

18 the ground and during an investigation that was conducted over the past

19 -- in those few days and months that followed, on that basis.

20 Q. Can you describe what you know about the conditions within those

21 detention centres.

22 A. Well, the conditions had not been adapted to cater to detainees

23 except for a few of the premises in the police station. All the rest was

24 improvised. So you -- one couldn't say that the conditions were good in

25 any way; quite the opposite.

Page 23459

1 Q. Were the detainees subjected to mistreatment by some of the people

2 involved in the takeover of the municipality?

3 A. Well, some of them were mistreated, as far as I know.

4 Q. Can you please describe or list the types of mistreatment that you

5 are aware these detainees were subjected to.

6 A. Well, they were subjected to beatings. They were beaten up. Some

7 of them were intimidated, and unfortunately, a few of them died as a

8 result, died in the premises in which they were being detained.

9 Q. Were some also subjected to sexual abuse?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And as best you are able, would you identify the different units

12 that had access to these detainees and perpetrated some of these abuses

13 upon them.

14 A. Well, they were mostly mistreated by the special forces men

15 wearing the camouflage uniforms, the 30-odd men who had come in from

16 Serbia, although, although there were local soldiers too who entered these

17 premises from time to time and mistreated them.

18 Q. Was the abuse of these detainees brought to the attention of the

19 civil -- or the newly created civil authorities in the municipality?

20 A. Yes, they were aware of the abuses.

21 Q. I'm going to ask now that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit

22 476, tab 6.

23 Sir, I would ask you to look at the last page of this document and

24 simply tell us, do you recognise the signature of the person attesting to

25 the stenographic notes?

Page 23460

1 A. Yes, I do recognise it.

2 Q. And have you had a chance to review these notes and is there

3 anything materially inaccurate in the notes or the account contained

4 therein?

5 A. I did have a chance on several occasions to review the notes, to

6 read through them, and there is nothing materially that is inaccurate. It

7 does not diverge from the truth.

8 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to the person identified as

9 number 16 on Prosecution Exhibit 476, tab 3, and my question to you is did

10 you, in late April or early May, make a trip to Belgrade with this person?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you please describe the purpose of your trip, and who were you

13 going to see?

14 A. Well, the man under number 16 asked me to drive him in my car to

15 Belgrade for him to have a meeting with some people there.

16 Q. Who was he intending on meeting in Belgrade?

17 A. He intended to have a meeting with Frenki Simatovic, Frenki.

18 Q. Did you, in fact, drive him to Belgrade so that he could have a

19 meeting with Frenki Simatovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where did you go?

22 A. Well, we went to Belgrade, and we went to -- first of all, he

23 asked -- he inquired at the reception desk of the MUP of Serbia for the

24 people, and sometime later -- we waited. Number 16 and I waited for a

25 time in the courtyard of this building, in a small hut, and that's where

Page 23461

1 the meeting took place with the gentleman in question.

2 Q. While you were waiting to meet with Mr. Simatovic, can you

3 describe what you saw inside this hut.

4 A. Well, in that small hut I saw several young men wearing camouflage

5 uniforms and with those red berets.

6 Q. And can you describe the hut. Were you able to tell what the --

7 what the purpose of the hut was? What was it being used for at that time?

8 A. Well, I would say that it was being used for the temporary

9 accommodation of a small number of those young men, several of those young

10 men, because on my way to the toilet, I happened to see in a room there,

11 the door was open, and I saw a bed, and I saw one or two rucksacks of the

12 camouflage type, the same colour as the camouflage uniform.

13 Q. And where precisely was this building that you're describing in

14 relation to the main building of the Serbian Ministry of Internal Affairs?

15 A. Well, it was behind that building in actual fact, looking at it

16 from the main road, and it was right close to the -- actually, it was in

17 the courtyard, the courtyard of the building.

18 Q. Now, can you describe what happened after Frenki Simatovic came to

19 the hut.

20 A. He said hello to me and to number 16, and the two of them went

21 into another room and I stayed behind to wait in the first hall in that

22 small sort of prefabricated hut.

23 Q. Did you hear anything that Frenki Simatovic said to number 16?

24 A. Well, I heard him ask him to write a report.

25 Q. And what did number 16 say?

Page 23462

1 A. Well, after that, I heard number 16 say that he couldn't write him

2 out -- he couldn't write out a report for him. It was difficult for him

3 because he wasn't very good at writing. So my conclusion was -- well,

4 actually, I don't know whether he wrote or didn't write the report, but I

5 don't think he did.

6 Q. After the meeting, did number 16 tell you what the report was to

7 be about?

8 A. He told me that the report was supposed to be on the subject of

9 the events that had taken place in the meantime or, rather, what went on

10 in the area where gentleman number 16 had spent some time. And it's

11 number 3. The place is number 3 on the list.

12 MR. GROOME: I ask that the witness now be shown tab 7 of

13 Prosecution Exhibit 476, and I'm going to ask you simply to tell us, had

14 you seen this document prior to coming to The Hague, and if so, tell us

15 when it was you first saw this document.

16 A. Well, I saw it for the first time as I took part in bringing about

17 a decision to compile a document of this kind and to write it, that's when

18 I saw it first, which means May 1992.

19 Q. And to summarise the contents of this letter, does it speak in

20 complimentary terms or favourable terms about the work that number 16 did

21 in the municipality?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did the Crisis Staff of the municipality authorise certain people

24 to solicit assistance from governmental and private organisations in the

25 Republic of Serbia?

Page 23463

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23464

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I'm going to ask that you take a look at Prosecution Exhibit tab 8

3 and tab 9 of Prosecution Exhibit 476, and my question to you is: Are

4 these two documents copies of letters authorising the named individuals on

5 them to solicit assistance for the municipality?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I want to draw your attention now to the location listed as item

8 number 4 on Prosecution Exhibit 476, tab 3, the list that's to your left.

9 And my question to you is: In early May, did you become aware of a

10 massacre that had been perpetrated at that location?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was there a warehouse at that location that was being used as one

13 of the detention facilities you've described earlier?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you please describe what you know about the events in that

16 location.

17 A. Well, the following morning I was told that in that particular

18 location, the man under number 18 was drunk, and that from a

19 short-barrelled rifle, the person had killed 16 detainees.

20 Q. During the period of time that this occurred, were the special

21 units from Serbia still present in the municipality?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And can you remind us, what was number 18's relationship to those

24 special units? Was he a member of those special units?

25 A. Yes, he was a member, and I think that he was the leader of a

Page 23465

1 small group, a komandir.

2 Q. And during this period of time was the Yugoslav People's Army

3 present in the municipality?

4 A. Yes. And this man under number 18 was within a JNA unit.

5 Q. So is it your testimony that the member of this special unit of

6 the state security service of Serbia was in the unit of the Yugoslav

7 People's Army in the municipality that you're describing?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were the newly created civil authorities in the municipality

10 notified about the crime that occurred in this location?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What, if anything, did they do in response to learning about it?

13 A. At first, out of fear, they didn't do anything. But later on,

14 they tried to inform the responsible authorities above in order to address

15 the problem.

16 Q. I'm going to ask that you now take a look at Prosecution Exhibit

17 476, tab 10, and my question to you is do you recognise this document?

18 JUDGE KWON: Before we go into another topic, could we go into

19 private session briefly.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23466

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, maybe to avoid going into closed session

22 again, I do have the information you requested. I'm pass it up through

23 the usher, if that's acceptable.

24 Q. Sir, the document that you have before you, have you seen that

25 document before?

Page 23467

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the biographical information of the first three names on that

3 document, is that correct?

4 A. On the basis of my own knowledge, they are correct, yes.

5 Q. When is the first time you saw this document?

6 JUDGE MAY: Which tab number are we at again, if you could remind

7 me?

8 MR. GROOME: That's tab 10, Your Honour.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him for the first time -- I

10 saw it for the first time at the beginning of 1993.

11 MR. GROOME:

12 Q. The victims that are described in that document, what ethnicity

13 are they?

14 A. There is mention here of a victim of Serb ethnicity.

15 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to late May of 1992. Was there

16 a meeting in the office of number 9 regarding or -- regarding the -- one

17 of the detachments of the Yugoslav People's Army and a member of it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What was the purpose of that meeting?

20 A. The purpose of the meeting was, as problems had arisen within that

21 brigade, that is the one under number 19, the commander of that unit came

22 to the premises of the gentleman under number 9, and they discussed -- or,

23 actually, the commander spoke of the problems he was having.

24 Q. And what were those problems?

25 A. The commander of this unit under 19 had replaced from the position

Page 23468

1 of detachment commander the gentleman under number - just a moment - 16.

2 Q. And was the discussion regarding plans to dismiss number 16 from

3 his position?

4 A. The gentleman under 16 had already been dismissed, and then there

5 were problems in the unit, and the commander came to discuss those

6 problems, among other things, with gentleman number 9 in his office.

7 Q. What was the decision taken at that meeting?

8 A. The decision taken was that a delegation of which I too was a

9 member should go and see the corps commander, that is, the superior to

10 this commander of the unit number 19, and to discuss with him the problems

11 that had arisen on the ground.

12 Q. And was that done?

13 A. Yes. That same day this was done.

14 Q. What was the result of that meeting?

15 A. The result of that meeting was that the commander of the corps

16 named number 16 and appointed him to the position of the commander of unit

17 number 19.

18 Q. I'm going to ask that the witness be shown tab 12 of Prosecution

19 476. And if I could draw your attention to the last page and ask you do

20 you recognise the signature of the person attesting to this

21 stenographically recorded statement.

22 A. Yes, I do recognise this signature.

23 Q. And have you had a chance to review this document and are there

24 any material inaccuracies in the document, based upon your personal

25 knowledge?

Page 23469

1 A. Yes, I have had a chance to review this document several times,

2 and based upon my own knowledge, I wouldn't say that there are any

3 material inaccuracies.

4 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the witness now be shown tab 11 of

5 Prosecution Exhibit 476.

6 Q. And my question to you is: Do you recognise this document?

7 A. Can I just have a look at it for a moment, please. Yes, I do

8 recognise it.

9 Q. And can you describe in substance what the document is.

10 A. This is a request for the forced return of conscripts who had fled

11 from area number 3 and who are now within the territory of the Republic of

12 Serbia.

13 Q. And what was the request to do with those people? I'm sorry. I

14 withdraw that question.

15 Can I now draw your attention --

16 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Groome. Have we dealt with the

17 charges put against those people, what specific charges?

18 MR. GROOME: It's contained in tab 10. Perhaps if we go into

19 closed session, I could ask the witness more detail about that.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23470

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 23470 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23471

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

14 MR. GROOME:

15 Q. Sir, if I could draw your attention now to June or July of 1992.

16 Were you part of a delegation that went to Belgrade in order to discuss

17 some of the concerns about the person identified as number 16?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you first tell us who was part of that delegation.

20 A. I was part of that delegation, as well as number 9, number 11,

21 number 12, and that was all. Those were the members of the delegation.

22 Q. And precisely what was the purpose of the delegation?

23 A. The purpose was to talk to some people of influence from that area

24 and who were living in Belgrade, and to try and talk to them so that they

25 would lobby with the commander of the army of Republika Srpska so that the

Page 23472

1 best possible solution be found in connection with person number 16.

2 Q. Would it be fair to say that some members of the delegation

3 believed that the best solution would be that number 16 would be removed

4 from the area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you personally share that view?

7 A. At that point in time, to be quite frank, I did not share the

8 opinion that he should be removed just then, because in those days, he was

9 trusted by the people and the fighters and the soldiers. But some of

10 those members were causing problems, and they were not trusted.

11 Q. When you say "problems," what specifically are you referring to?

12 Was it criminal behaviour?

13 A. Yes. Precisely the things we just mentioned, what happened in

14 place number 4 and the mistreatment of detainees, looting; criminal

15 activities, yes.

16 Q. Before I ask you the specific details of people you may have

17 spoken to in Belgrade, could I ask you just to simply list the different

18 locations that you went to attempt to have a discussion regarding number

19 16.

20 A. First of all, we went to the building of the MUP of Serbia, but no

21 one received us over there. After that, we went to another building where

22 we were received by number 25 who was a native of our area. And after

23 that, we spoke with number 14 or, rather, in his office, in the office of

24 number 14. That was the third place we went to.

25 Q. Was one of the -- was one of the governmental organisations that

Page 23473

1 you attempted to notify the Federal Presidency of Yugoslavia?

2 A. Yes. This gentleman, number 25, was employed in that institution.

3 He was working there.

4 Q. Did that person, number 25, make a telephone call and arrange

5 another meeting for you and your delegation?

6 A. Yes. The gentleman under number 25 called up number 14, and after

7 this meeting with number 25, we went to the office of number 14.

8 Q. And would I be correct in saying that number 14 was the Chief of

9 Staff of a unit of the Yugoslav People's Army?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At his office, did anybody else arrive to join in the meeting?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who was that?

14 A. Later on at the meeting, we were joined by Mr. Franko Simatovic,

15 Frenki.

16 Q. And were the matters regarding the crimes being committed in the

17 municipality discussed in the presence of Frenki Simatovic?

18 A. My impression was that those problems were something that were

19 already known, that is, the crimes. But specifically, as far as I can

20 recall, we discussed the appointment of number 16 to the position of

21 brigade commander. And I remember that Mr. Simatovic made a comment to

22 the effect, Which fool had appointed him to the position of commander when

23 he's incapable of leading such a large unit? He's capable of leading a

24 smaller unit.

25 Q. What was the conclusion or decision made at that meeting among

Page 23474

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23475

1 Mr. Simatovic and number 25? My apologies; I mean number 14.

2 A. This gentleman, number 14, said that they in Belgrade were not

3 competent, they did not have the authority to appoint or replace

4 commanders. It was the commander, General Mladic, who had that

5 competence. And after that, he went to another office and called up

6 General Mladic by phone. And while he was talking to General Mladic, he

7 called Mr. -- the gentleman under number 9, that is number 9, to come and

8 talk to Mr. Mladic as well.

9 I am not familiar with the contents of that conversation, but

10 later on, Mr. 9 told me briefly what General Mladic had told him.

11 Q. Can you please recount that to us here today.

12 A. Mr. 9, when he returned from that other office, he was visibly

13 irritated, and on the way back, he told me that General Mladic had yelled

14 over the phone and had criticised him and said, "What are you looking for

15 in Belgrade? Your place is in number 3, and go back there. What are you

16 looking for in Belgrade? What business have you in Belgrade?"

17 Q. Did there come a time when number 16 was arrested by members of

18 the Republika Srpska army?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When was that?

21 A. He was arrested in the summer of 1992. I don't know the exact

22 date, but sometime during the summer of 1992.

23 Q. Did number 16 give you a message regarding his arrest?

24 A. Yes. He passed on the message, and he asked me to inform his

25 people in Belgrade to try and save him, to get him out of prison.

Page 23476

1 Q. When he used the phrase "his people," what did you take that to

2 mean?

3 A. His message was that I inform Frenki that he had been arrested.

4 Q. Did you attempt to do that?

5 A. Yes. I went there and tried to get in touch with Mr. Frenki. So

6 I did go to Belgrade.

7 Q. And where was it you attempted to get in touch with Frenki

8 Simatovic?

9 A. I tried to find him in the building of the MUP of Serbia, but as

10 he wasn't there, I waited for a while across the road in the prefab

11 building that I referred to a moment ago. And while I was waiting for him

12 possibly to appear, some younger men in camouflage uniform who were in

13 that same building told me that Mr. Jovica Stanisic was just coming out of

14 the building and that it would be a good idea for me to brief him about

15 the problem.

16 Q. Did you go over to Mr. Stanisic and discuss the problem with him?

17 A. Yes. I went out of this prefab building and while Mr. Stanisic

18 was waiting for a car to pick him up in front of the MUP building, I

19 approached him. I introduced myself, I said who I was, where I was coming

20 from, and I told him that number 16 had been arrested and that he had

21 asked for assistance.

22 Q. What did he say to you?

23 A. He first asked me, since he wasn't quite sure what the exact name

24 of the person was, because I only mentioned his nickname, and then he

25 asked me whether he was from that town in which he had been born and for

Page 23477

1 me to tell him his proper name. So I told him his first and last name,

2 and then he said -- he asked me what I thought, who was behind the arrest,

3 and I said that I thought that the League of Communist movement of

4 Yugoslavia was behind it. And he said they've touched into a wasp --

5 hornet nest and I will now send a telex telling them to release him

6 immediately. So he went back to the building he had just come out of.

7 Q. When he used the phrase "they have really touched into a hornet's

8 nest," what did you understand that to mean?

9 A. I don't know what he meant, but I saw that he didn't like what he

10 heard from me, that this man had been arrested.

11 Q. Did you return to the municipality marked as number 3?

12 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Was number 16 released from prison?

14 A. Yes, he was released some ten days later.

15 MR. GROOME: I now ask that the witness be shown Prosecution

16 Exhibit 476, tab 13.

17 Q. I would ask, do you recognise this document?

18 MR. GROOME: If I could note for the Court, there are actually two

19 copies of the same document in the package provided to the Chamber and the

20 parties in the courtroom. There are some inaccuracies in this document,

21 and the witness was asked to identify which portions of the document he

22 thought were inaccurate, and they have been marked by drawing a line

23 underneath those sections.

24 Q. Sir, have you seen this document before?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23478

1 Q. When was the first time you saw this document?

2 A. The first time I saw the document was in December 1992.

3 Q. And can you just summarise for us the contents of the document.

4 A. As to the contents of the document, they talk about the negative

5 phenomena that affected morale and what was going on in the command of the

6 unit under number 19. And among other things, in a part of the document

7 this group of 30 men is referred to in a positive light, the men that came

8 from Serbia, but later on it says that those people committed criminal

9 acts, and of course the worst crime is also mentioned, the one that took

10 place in the place under number 4.

11 And at the end of the document, mention is made of the steps to be

12 taken in future to prevent these negative phenomena that affected morale

13 and to raise the morale of the unit to a higher level.

14 Q. When you first saw this document, was it considered a secret

15 document?

16 A. Yes, it was considered to be a secret document. Later on, this

17 document was discussed at the Assembly meeting of the municipality under

18 number 3.

19 Q. Now, several days ago did you take a copy of this document and

20 draw lines under those portions of it which you believe to be inaccurate?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. The remainder of the document that's not underlined, based upon

23 your personal knowledge, are those sections all accurate?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. GROOME: I'd now ask that the witness be shown Prosecution

Page 23479

1 Exhibit 476, tab 14.

2 Q. And once again, if I could direct your attention to the signature

3 page. Do you recognise the signature of the person attesting to the

4 stenographic notes of an interview?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is there anything materially inaccurate in that document?

7 A. No, there's nothing essentially incorrect. No material

8 inaccuracies to the best of my knowledge.

9 Q. Now, after number 16 was released from prison, did he remain in

10 the area of number 3 or did he leave?

11 A. He left straight away, left the area and went back home.

12 Q. In the fall of 1992, was it discussed whether or not to bring him

13 back to the area or request that he return to the area to once again

14 resume his involvement in the military activity in the area?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was that request conveyed to him?

17 A. Yes, the request was conveyed to him.

18 Q. Who conveyed that request?

19 A. I conveyed that request to him over the phone.

20 Q. Did he put any condition upon his return to the area?

21 A. Well, yes. He said that if the corps commander wanted him to go

22 back to the area, then he would like me to send a letter to the MUP of

23 Serbia, "and if I am granted permission, then I would come with a group of

24 people. " That's what he said. "Because I don't want to have any

25 unpleasantness over there, for anybody to arrest me or things like that,

Page 23480

1 mistreat me."

2 Q. Was such a letter drafted and sent to the MUP of Serbia?

3 A. Yes. After consultations and discussions, a decision was taken to

4 write a letter to that effect, requesting his return and the group of men

5 volunteers, and that kind of letter was sent.

6 Q. And who was the author? Who sent -- who was the author of the

7 letter?

8 A. That letter was written after the Crisis Staff decision was

9 reached of municipality number 3, and the president of the Crisis Staff,

10 the man under number 9, signed the letter, and the letter was sent on to

11 the MUP of Serbia.

12 Q. Who delivered the letter to the MUP of Serbia?

13 A. I personally took the letter and handed it over there to the

14 people from the MUP of Serbia.

15 Q. And which specific person did you hand the letter to?

16 A. I handed the letter to Mr. Milan Prodanic.

17 Q. I want to draw your attention now to the person identified as

18 number 24 on the list of names of tab 3. What involvement or what part

19 did he play in this request?

20 A. Well, he -- on that day, he scheduled a meeting with the man,

21 which means that when I arrived in Belgrade, I phoned him up and we first

22 met in his office. And later on, Mr. Prodanic arrived there.

23 Q. And what happened after Mr. Prodanic arrived?

24 A. We sat around chatting, discussing the letter, and he asked me to

25 go to the building of the MUP of Serbia with him, to accompany him there.

Page 23481

1 So I went, carrying the letter with me. It was towards evening when we

2 went to the MUP of Serbia building.

3 Q. The MUP of Serbia has several different smaller parts to it. What

4 particular part of the MUP of Serbia did you go to?

5 A. Well, we went to the department for state security.

6 Q. And what happened when you arrived at the -- or went to the

7 department of state security?

8 A. Well, I was told that they would consider our request and that

9 they would try to give a positive answer.

10 Q. Did there come a time when number 16 did return to the

11 municipality?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome.

14 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE KWON: The pace of examination is somewhat too fast. It's

16 very difficult to follow. Could we go back to tab 13 for a minute.

17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE KWON: Is the event, the massacre included in the

19 indictment, included in this document? And if yes, could we find the

20 relevant passage.

21 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. If I can draw the Court's

22 attention to page 2 of that document. The last paragraph, beginning with,

23 "Fifth, the fact that criminals..." And if I could then draw your

24 attention down to the sentence beginning, "The massive arrests and

25 isolation of Croats and Muslims followed..." And if you continue on

Page 23482

1 through that passage, it talks about the location identified as number 4.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

3 MR. GROOME:

4 Q. If I can take you back to the office of the state security. Can I

5 ask you to identify all of the people who you met in the state security

6 office to whom you made this request.

7 A. Well, in addition to Mr. Prodanic, I met another gentleman whose

8 name was Fica.

9 Q. And had you met him prior to that day?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And I believe you were telling us about -- or let me just re-ask

12 the question. Did number 16 return to the municipality?

13 A. Yes. And what happened when he returned?

14 A. When he returned, there was an offensive in which he took part

15 with some other men, and what happened was that -- actually what happened

16 was the cause of his trial, why him and the group were tried. All the

17 things that we saw in 13, mentioned in tab 13.

18 Q. Did other men from outside the area also rejoin him in the

19 municipality?

20 A. Well, yes, a small group arrived with him from Serbia.

21 Q. Approximately how large was that group?

22 A. There might have been about 20 men. I can't tell you the exact

23 number.

24 Q. I'm going to ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit

25 476, tab 15, and my question to you is: Have you seen the document

Page 23483

1 before, and do you recognise the signature on the document?

2 A. Yes, I have seen the document, and I do recognise the signature.

3 Q. Can you summarise what the document or what the letter refers to?

4 A. Well, as it says here, this is a certificate certifying that five

5 Motorola radio sets of the Radius P-210 type - and then the serial numbers

6 are quoted - and two reserve batteries, one stationary Motorola battery

7 charger --

8 Q. If I might interrupt you. In the event that the specific contents

9 might identify you, can I ask you, does the document refer to property or

10 equipment that was loaned to the municipality by the Republic of Serbia

11 Ministry of Internal Affairs?

12 A. Well, I'd like to correct you on a small point here. Equipment

13 from the MUP of Serbia which was used in this formation under number 19,

14 that military formation.

15 Q. So this was equipment lent by the MUP of Serbia to the now army of

16 the Republika Srpska?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the witness now be shown Prosecution

19 Exhibit 476, tab 16.

20 Q. And if I could ask you to take a look at the signature page on

21 this document and tell us whether you recognise the signature attesting to

22 the stenographic notes of an interview with that person.

23 A. Yes, I do recognise the signature.

24 Q. This document refers to a meeting with various military officers

25 and a man from the MUP of Serbia. Were you present for at least a portion

Page 23484

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23485

1 of this meeting referred to in these stenographic notes?

2 A. Yes, I was present for a portion of the meeting.

3 Q. And was Milan Prodanic the person from the MUP of Serbia who was

4 represented at that meeting?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is there anything materially inaccurate about the contents of

7 those stenographic notes?

8 A. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing that is materially

9 inaccurate.

10 Q. If I can now draw your attention to late October or early November

11 of 1992. Did you attend a meeting in Bijeljina?

12 A. Well, I think the meeting that you mentioned a moment ago.

13 Q. I'm going to ask you a specific question about that meeting. Was

14 the subject of number 16 once again discussed between the people at that

15 meeting?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was there a discussion about what would be -- what would be done

18 if he once again began to commit crimes and cause problems in the

19 municipality?

20 A. All I heard was that when they said good-bye, in parting

21 Mr. Prodanic asked this other man who signed his name to the document that

22 if the man under number 16 were to make any problems whatsoever, that he

23 would take him back to Serbia that very moment; and his answer was, well,

24 there are no problems with him for the time being, and number 16 stayed in

25 our area.

Page 23486

1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I could ask to go into private

2 session for the next brief portion of testimony.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23487

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 23487 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23488

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

6 MR. GROOME:

7 Q. B-1244, we are back now in public session, open session. I'd ask

8 the final topic for you to deal with is, can you tell us what you know

9 about the means of supplying diesel oil and fuel to your municipality --

10 the municipality during the latter part of the war, 1993 to 1995.

11 A. Well, fuel was obtained from the then Federal Republic of

12 Yugoslavia, and what I know is that in a short period of time, it was also

13 procured from the Croats in Herceg-Bosna, but for a very short period of

14 time.

15 Q. During the period of time when there was an embargo, were -- was

16 the municipality still receiving fuel from the Republic of Serbia?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE MAY: There's the matter of these exhibits, Mr. Groome,

20 before you go any further. At the moment, they've been admitted, many of

21 them.

22 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MAY: Are they to be under seal is the question, and if so,

24 which ones?

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it wasn't our intention -- it was our

Page 23489

1 intention only to put the first three under seal. It appears that the

2 witness -- it's obvious to all of us here in the Chamber that the witness

3 is concerned about -- that the other ones will reveal the location where

4 he's from and thereby reveal his identity. I would ask at this juncture

5 they be placed under seal. After the witness completes his testimony, I

6 will speak to him in greater detail more specifically about his concerns

7 around perhaps raise it again with the Chamber the possibility of making

8 some of these at least, or redacted versions of them, public.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now. Cross-examination

10 after the adjournment. Twenty minutes, please.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

13 JUDGE MAY: Now, Witness B-1244, if during this cross-examination

14 at any stage you think an answer is one which could reveal your identity,

15 then ask to go into private session and we will consider it.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE MAY: You know the rules, Mr. Milosevic. Any questions to

18 do with the identity of this witness or the municipality or the list of

19 people that you have at tab 3, any of those, go into private session and

20 we'll deal with them in that way. By doing so, it does not mean that we

21 are not listening, of course, to the evidence, and it's being heard, but

22 that part will have to be in private session.

23 Yes. Yes. The registry quite rightly have asked me to remind you

24 that because of this -- and Witness B-1244, both of you, there has to be a

25 pause between question and answer. So could you make sure that his light

Page 23490

1 is off before you answer. Yes.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, in view of these remarks

3 that you have just made now, Mr. May, that you will give me a little more

4 time in view of the fact that you see even these technical requirements

5 take time.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1244, you're a native of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina, are you not?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You spent your whole life over there; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. During the war you were there also, were you not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You held a responsible post in your place of residence, which I

15 will not mention because we have agreed not to mention it.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, please, do you have a specific agreement with the side

18 represented by Mr. Groome, or arrangement?

19 JUDGE MAY: I think this matter should be dealt with in private

20 session.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23491

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 23491 to 23500 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25 [Open session]

Page 23501

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Is it true and correct that the Serbs of your municipality - I

4 don't want to mention the name of the municipality - I think Mr. Groome

5 said that the municipality was listed under --

6 A. Number 3.

7 Q. Yes, number 3. So it is a municipality in Bosnia and Herzegovina

8 at any rate. And is it true that in February 1992, at a meeting of the

9 Assembly, that they founded the Serb municipality of number 3, to put it

10 that way; is that right? Is that what happened?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Tell me, please, why did the Serbs set up their own municipal

13 administration?

14 A. Well, I think it was because the political circumstances were such

15 and there was the danger of burgeoning Croatian nationalism on the other

16 hand and the creation of a Croatian state. And in Bosnia, this

17 nationalism spilled over into Bosnia with the formation of the

18 fundamentalist, or at least that's how it appeared at the time, the

19 fundamentalist Party of Democratic Action. And the Serbs, in order to

20 protect their own rights, decided to take the step.

21 Q. At that time, had there already been cases in which Croatian

22 forces had stormed into the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and taken

23 control of certain places and engaged -- did the Muslim fundamentalist

24 forces engage in various military activities around your municipality?

25 A. As far as I know, yes, there were, in the immediate vicinity west

Page 23502

1 of my own municipality, instances of that kind.

2 Q. Tell me, is it true that the decision to set up the Serb

3 municipality of number 3, as we've been calling it and listing it here, is

4 it true that the decision was taken by the legally elected municipal

5 deputies from that same municipality and then also from three other

6 municipalities as well, neighbouring ones? And I think -- I don't think

7 they're on this list, but I assume you know the ones I'm referring to. If

8 you want us to go back into private session, I can tell you the names of

9 those three municipalities. We can do that. It will take a second, but I

10 don't think there's any need. I'm sure the witness must be aware of what

11 I'm talking about.

12 Isn't that right, Mr. 1244?

13 A. Yes, that is right.

14 Q. Tell me now, please, at that time, that is to say the period of

15 time during which the Serb municipality was set up in the area of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, how many Serbs, refugees, among other things, from

17 Western Slavonia, for example, and from other parts and regions as well

18 passed through that same municipality or decided to stay in the

19 municipality?

20 A. Well, I don't know the exact number, but there were many columns

21 which would pass by, coming in from Western Slavonia from time to time.

22 Most of them passed by, and a small portion of them stayed on. But I do

23 know that they passed by, and I do know that the locals organised some

24 food and drink for them during their temporary stay, and then they

25 continued on their journey.

Page 23503

1 Q. So they showed them some care and attention, solidarity, and so

2 on, and most of them left, carried along their way, but some of them

3 stayed on; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I assume that you were able to talk to many of them. Am I right

6 in assuming that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did they tell you? Why did they have to leave their homes?

9 A. Well, their stories were deeply shattering, moving. They said

10 that they had to leave their homes for the most part under pressure from

11 the National Guards Corps in Croatia. They called them the Ustashas, and

12 they said it was because of the Ustashas that they had had to leave.

13 Q. How did they call them?

14 A. Who do you mean?

15 Q. Well, the people they called Ustashas, who were these?

16 A. Well, as time went on, we began to refer to them the same way.

17 Q. All right. Now, apart from the attacks that you confirmed

18 happened in part of the territory of your municipality, tell me, before

19 the decision was taken to set up that particular municipality, was there

20 any strong shelling around the surrounding villages in the area by these

21 enemy forces precisely?

22 A. Well, in my area, I don't recall any shelling, but yes, you could

23 hear explosions further off across the Sava River. You could hear the

24 reverberation of those explosions.

25 Q. Is it true, then, that there was artillery fire opened from the

Page 23504

1 territory of Croatia across the Sava River and that it was targeted

2 towards certain areas on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, specifically

3 your municipality?

4 A. Well, I'm not aware of it having taken place in the area of my

5 municipality. As far as I heard, it was to the west of my municipality.

6 As to my own municipality, I don't remember any artillery fire.

7 Q. How far to the west of your municipality? How far west?

8 A. Well, perhaps 30 to 40 kilometres.

9 Q. And were there any killed and wounded as a result?

10 A. As I heard at the time, yes, there were.

11 Q. So within your family was anybody killed or wounded, any of your

12 family members, during this shelling?

13 A. During the war, I did have casualties in my family, yes.

14 Q. And who caused them to be victims?

15 A. Well, the Croatian and Muslim military formations.

16 Q. Were they military men or civilians?

17 A. Well, both; some were military, some were civilians.

18 Q. And is it true that already at that time the detachments had been

19 organised and weapons -- and armed, those formations called the National

20 Guards Corps, the Croatian National Guards Corps and the HOS; is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it also true that the Party of Democratic Action in particular,

24 the leading party on the Muslim side, that it too was organised and armed

25 within the frameworks of the Patriotic League, the so-called Patriotic

Page 23505

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23506

1 League of Peoples from the Green Berets and so on?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the founding of the Serb municipal administration in the

4 municipality we're discussing, was that actually a response to an already

5 organised, armed movement on the Croatian and Muslim extremist side and

6 the events linked to the suffering of people -- of the people in Western

7 Slavonia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. Yes. In my opinion, yes.

9 Q. And is it true that already a month later, on the 28th of March,

10 1992, a new session of the Municipal Assembly was convened and held when

11 you received an important function, post? And I'm talking about the area

12 of municipality number 3 and three other municipalities; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And is it true that at that time when you came to take up your

15 post, which was in March 1992, that no Serb police forces existed at all

16 at that time? There weren't any; is that right?

17 A. Well, new Serb police forces did not exist, if I can call them

18 that, no.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 JUDGE MAY: I think we'll go into private session.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23507

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 23507 to 23510 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23511

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. In those days that we have referred to, had the Republika Srpska

21 already been proclaimed within Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell me, please, in the course of the month of April 1992, up

24 until the second half of May, was the Yugoslav People's Army still the

25 only official and legal armed force within the territory of Bosnia and

Page 23512

1 Herzegovina?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it true that in a part of Posavina, the Posavina region that we

4 are discussing, among other areas, there was the so-called 17th Tactical

5 Group of the JNA? Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As a member of the reserve JNA force, did you have a position

8 within that 17th Tactical Group, a smaller unit of that group?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is it true that the reserve force within the 17th Tactical Group

11 was organised into four detachments?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Groome asked you yesterday two questions, one after another,

14 and I'll combine them. He asked you about the composition of the members

15 of those four detachments, and you said that they were composed of local

16 inhabitants; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then he went on to ask you where did the equipment and weapons

19 come from, and you answered also from local sources, that is, from JNA

20 warehouses nearby; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So those four detachments consisted of locals, and the origin of

23 the weapons was also local. Isn't that right, Mr. 1244?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. As a military conscript, you received call-up papers from the

Page 23513

1 Municipal Secretariat of National Defence, and according to your

2 assignments, you were attached to a particular detachment which was also

3 part of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA at the time, wasn't it? I

4 won't mention which one it was.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This was in February 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Actually, like many others, you were drafted and required to

9 attend military exercises; isn't that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Tell me now, please, is it true that after the withdrawal of the

12 JNA from Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the formation sense the same

13 organisational structure was retained, only the names of the units were

14 changed and the command officers.

15 A moment ago, we established that the four detachments consisted

16 of locals, that their weapons were also from local sources, they were

17 under JNA command for as long as the JNA existed. When the JNA withdrew,

18 they remained in their own area as part of the army of Republika Srpska

19 that was in the process of being formed; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it true that on the 17th of April, while the JNA were still in

22 the area, the commander of the 17th Tactical Group ordered that major

23 facilities and institutions in your municipality be placed under control,

24 that control be taken of them?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23514

1 Q. Now tell me, please, since a question is being repeatedly referred

2 to here regarding the takeover of power, tell me, was this done in order

3 to take over power by the Serbs in your municipality, that is municipality

4 number 3, or was the intention to ensure the normal functioning of public

5 utilities, economic institutions, installations and so on?

6 A. It was done with those intentions in mind and that idea in mind.

7 Q. So the commander of the JNA tactical group sought to ensure the

8 normal functioning of public utilities, the economy, and other important

9 institutions for the municipality; is that right?

10 A. Yes. He asked the local civilian authorities to organise those

11 public services.

12 Q. And is it true that within the territory of that municipality,

13 your municipality, both Croatian forces and Muslim forces had already

14 organised themselves within their own TO independently of the JNA and as

15 part of units such as the Patriotic League, the Green Berets, the HVO, et

16 cetera?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You speak of events of the 17th of April, saying that a group of

19 volunteers participated, some 50 of them; is that right? According to

20 your statement, 30 of them came from Serbia and the rest were young men

21 from the territory of your municipality; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As Mr. Groome is using these 30 men and explaining them as being a

24 special unit from Serbia, is it true that 28 of those 30 were -- I don't

25 know whether I may mention the town in Serbia, it's not on the list here

Page 23515

1 -- and that they were volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party; is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes. They were volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party.

4 Q. Since the JNA was still in existence, were they volunteers in the

5 JNA?

6 A. The very next day after their arrival, they joined into the

7 existing military units and became part of those units.

8 Q. To make this quite clear, when various abstracts are picked out of

9 context, the mosaic may be wrong. So this group of volunteers from one

10 municipality was not a unit of the state security from Serbia but

11 volunteers of a particular party that joined the JNA as volunteers. Is

12 that right or not?

13 A. It's a rather complicated question. They came as volunteers of

14 the Serbian Radical Party and were immediately included in the military

15 unit that was under JNA command.

16 Q. That's what I'm asking you. And later on, when the JNA withdrew,

17 they were volunteers in the army of Republika Srpska. Is that right or

18 not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So whichever time period we are referring to, that group was a

21 group of volunteers that had either reported to the JNA when the JNA

22 existed in the area or to the army of Republika Srpska later on.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So they were no special unit of any kind of the state security of

25 Serbia, were they, Mr. 1244?

Page 23516

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23517

1 A. Yes. While they were in the territory of this municipality, they

2 were, up until the 18th of May, part of the JNA. And after the 18th of

3 May, they were part of the army of Republika Srpska.

4 Q. I am saying this because the Serbian Radical Party claims that it

5 always sent volunteers either to the JNA or to the army of Republika

6 Srpska or to the army of Republika Srpska Krajina, that it never formed

7 its own separate units. And is that true regarding the territory of your

8 municipality?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So they were either volunteers to the JNA or to the army of

11 Republika Srpska; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Heading this volunteer unit, according to what you said, was a

14 certain person, number 16, the person number 16; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was he a member of the army of Republika Srpska?

17 A. While he was in the territory of that municipality, he was within

18 the army of Republika Srpska.

19 Q. I am saying this because I wish to emphasise because I understand

20 that Mr. Groome is endeavouring to represent him as if he represented the

21 Ministry of Internal Affairs of Serbia, whereas in fact he was a volunteer

22 in the army of Republika Srpska. Is that right or not?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Do you know that that person had an official ID of anybody from

25 the Republika Srpska Krajina?

Page 23518

1 A. I didn't see any official ID on him.

2 Q. You spoke yesterday about a meeting you had in Belgrade with

3 Franko Simatovic; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I should like us to explain that in somewhat greater detail. Were

6 you ever invited by him to come to Belgrade?

7 A. No, I was not.

8 Q. Since you say you met him twice, did he issue any order to you of

9 any kind or give you any kind of instructions in connection with anything

10 at all? There's no need for me to be more specific than that.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did I understand you correctly? There was a group of some 20 of

13 people from your area being trained in the Republika Srpska Krajina?

14 A. Yes, in Eastern Slavonia.

15 Q. But Eastern Slavonia was still SO Eastern Slavonia, Western Srem,

16 and Baranja; isn't that right? That's how it was known. Or was it

17 already the Republika Srpska Krajina?

18 A. I'm not quite sure what it was formally called, but I know

19 geographically speaking it was the area of Eastern Slavonia.

20 Q. And you wanted to visit those men who were there being trained, is

21 that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then you went, taking the only route you could, that is via

24 Serbia, and you dropped in at the Ministry of Internal Affairs to ask

25 someone to help you go there, to take you there; is that right?

Page 23519

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Groome spoke about that as if you wanted them to take care of

3 your transportation, but from what you said, I gather that they told you

4 that somebody would be going in that direction shortly and that you can

5 follow that person to reach the destination you wanted to reach; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes, on that same day, not the next day.

8 Q. So they didn't transport you there, but you just followed a

9 vehicle that was going in that direction anyway; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that was when you saw Franko Simatovic. You saw him

12 travelling in that direction, wearing civilian clothing and going about

13 his business, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Later on you explained that you stopped by a house near to Ilok

16 where he got out because he had some talks or something to do, and they

17 saw to it that they give you somebody to escort you to the camp so that

18 you could find the local people who were attending training there; is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you don't have any knowledge about any links he might have had

22 with the camp, because he stayed on in a house that had nothing to do with

23 the camp and you were given somebody else to drive you off or, rather, to

24 show you the way to reach the camp so that you could see these people of

25 yours.

Page 23520

1 A. Yes. He gave me somebody who took me there.

2 Q. So this was helping out a colleague in that kind of way. He

3 helped you find your way to visit the people you knew over there in the

4 camp in Republika Srpska Krajina; is that right?

5 A. Yes. It was a gesture on his part following the request of this

6 other man, number 13, who gave me the idea of doing that and asked me to.

7 Q. This number 13 was a functionary of your municipality in

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In fact, it was at his suggestion that you went to visit these

11 people and you asked your colleagues to show you the way, where it was

12 located; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, when you arrived on the spot, from your descriptions as I

15 heard them described yesterday, you said that you saw those 20 locals from

16 your town, that they were wearing uniforms and that they had red berets;

17 is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Well then, as they were in uniform and had these red berets, does

20 that mean that they were some Red Berets belonging to your municipality,

21 these people trained there, or were they the Red Berets of some sort of

22 MUP of, say, Krajina or Serbia or anybody else?

23 A. They were our people from our municipality who, after they had

24 completed their training, came back to our town.

25 Q. So they did their training and returned. And those were the Red

Page 23521

1 Berets of your municipality, municipality number 3; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So they weren't any Red Berets of the MUP of Serbia or anything

4 like that; is that right?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. You mean no, they weren't.

7 A. No, they weren't, no.

8 Q. All right. I wanted just to clear up that point. Let me just

9 take a look at what I've jotted down here. I hope I'll be able to skip

10 some questions.

11 Just tell me this now, please, so that we know whether it was a

12 camp of the MUP of Serbia or a camp of the MUP of Republika Srpska

13 Krajina, the one that you went to see. What was it?

14 A. Officially speaking, who the camp actually belonged to I really

15 can't say. I don't know. Officially, that is, in official terms who it

16 belonged to. But geographically speaking, it was in the territory of

17 Eastern Slavonia.

18 Q. On the -- in the area of the Republika Srpska Krajina?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you saw some Red Berets there from Krajina too, the Krajina

21 Red Berets; is that right?

22 A. Well, I can't -- whose they were, who they belonged to, I really

23 can't say, I don't know.

24 Q. All right. Now, later on, you say -- and we're going to have to

25 have a look at those files in awhile. You say that there were about ten

Page 23522

1 volunteers that you mentioned and that they were taken to court-martial in

2 Banja Luka. They were brought before a military court there; is that

3 right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Among the persons charged was this man under number 16, and also

6 this other man. You gave his number as being number 18. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. During your testimony, you said that this man had carried out some

9 killings; is that right?

10 A. Yes, number 18.

11 Q. Was he a criminal who later on became a casualty in a criminal

12 settling of accounts? Do you know anything about that?

13 A. Yes. I did hear that he was killed in his own place of birth in

14 some sort of shoot-out or something.

15 Q. Well, what did he have to do with the police? Did he have

16 anything to do with the Republika Srpska or the police of Serbia or the

17 police of Krajina; which? I don't mean in the sense of his arrest. I

18 mean in the sense of any connections and links with the police of either

19 the police of Serbia or the police of Republika Srpska or Krajina?

20 A. I'm sorry, but I don't follow your question. I don't understand

21 your question. Well, they did arrest him, but I don't know what you're

22 actually asking me.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. What I'm asking you is this: Take a look at the list of names,

Page 23523

1 and the man under number 18. You spoke about him and said that he had

2 committed some crimes. Now, did this man, the name and surname and

3 nickname stipulated here, did he ever have anything to do with the police

4 of Serbia or the police of Republika Srpska or the police of Republika

5 Srpska Krajina? Any connections?

6 A. Once again I'm not clear on what you mean. Are you asking me

7 whether he was an official employee of those organs, whether he had a

8 document?

9 Q. Well, did he have any relations or links, relations of cooperation

10 with any of these three police forces? From what I gather according to

11 your testimony, he was a volunteer, one of the volunteers that came

12 forward in municipality number 3, as we call it, as we refer to it, into

13 the regular armed forces, and in that capacity committed certain acts. Is

14 that right or not?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Well, did he have anything to do with any of these police

17 structures?

18 A. Well, I don't know. I'm not aware that he had any official ties

19 or connections with any one of these police structures, the ones you

20 mentioned.

21 Q. How about unofficially? Any unofficial links or contacts?

22 A. I'm not aware of them. I don't know.

23 Q. Right. So unofficial or official, neither; right?

24 Now, tell me this: In the judgement by the military court in

25 Banja Luka - and I'm going to see whether I'm going to need it for further

Page 23524

1 reference - it's on page 2, page 2 of the judgement, it enumerates the ten

2 men involved, the military court in Banja Luka does, and the last sentence

3 is as follows: "All the accused were members of the army of Republika

4 Srpska." Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, tell me this, please: Is it true that they were tried for

7 mistreating and taking into custody illegally certain individuals amongst

8 whom there were Serbs, Muslims, and Croats?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is that right, Mr. 1244?

11 A. Yes. I said yes.

12 Q. I didn't hear you. Sorry. Because of this voice distortion, I

13 have to have the headset in my ear to hear you better. The better to hear

14 you with, but it's not always effective.

15 So they were found guilty, and in the judgement it says they have

16 been -- were found guilty, and it was obvious that it was a unit or

17 reconnaissance patrol of some kind, as I was -- as far as I was able to

18 gather from your testimony, of the 2nd Krajina Corps, right?

19 A. Yes. They were reconnaissance men from the 1st Krajina Corps, a

20 brigade from the 1st Krajina Corps, in actual fact.

21 Q. I see. A brigade from the 1st Krajina Corps. And they arrested

22 them and mistreated them; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And this 1st Krajina Corps is the 1st Krajina Corps of the army of

25 Republika Srpska, that's what you mean, right?

Page 23525

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, in that list of soldiers belonging to the army of Republika

3 Srpska, these reconnaissance men which, as you say -- it says that they

4 were unlawfully arrested and taken into custody --

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether I'm allowed to

6 read out the names, Mr. May, or not. If I'm not allowed to read out the

7 names, I won't do so. I don't want to go into private session.

8 JUDGE MAY: If the names are to be read out, we will have to have

9 a private session. Otherwise, you can stay in open session.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Then I won't read out the names. But as you have them in front of

12 you -- it's on page 3 of the judgement, where it says they have been found

13 guilty because from the 3rd of November to the 16th of November, 1992,

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then it goes on to list the second, third, fourth, and fifth,

18 also a Muslim; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So several names down there's another Muslim and then there's a

21 Croat - you can take a look at the names yourself - and so on. So does

22 that show that this Reconnaissance Unit of the 1st Krajina Corps of the

23 army of Republika Srpska had soldiers who were both Serbs and Croats and

24 Muslims, all these ethnic groups; right? Regardless of the fact that

25 you're not testifying about that, what it says here demonstrates that;

Page 23526

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Well, doesn't that indicate that there was no discrimination in

4 the army of Republika Srpska against Muslims and Croats if we see that,

5 judging by this document, they were members of this Reconnaissance Unit of

6 the 1st Krajina Corps?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that right?

9 A. Yes. To the best of my knowledge, those who wanted to join up

10 could do so. They could become part of the army of Republika Srpska, and

11 there were different -- these different people.

12 Q. Yes. There were whole brigades, entire brigades. What I'm saying

13 is that these are soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska, and we can see

14 by the list that they include Croats and Muslims, because these people are

15 precisely being punished for unlawfully mistreating and arresting these

16 other people; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it is also true and correct that on that occasion this man

19 under number 16, he did not commit any killings, it was the other man who

20 later on lost his life, who you said was a criminal and had nothing to do

21 with any of these police structures.

22 Now, is it true that this number 16 was also accused of a crime,

23 that is to say he was insubordinate to a superior and he came into

24 conflict with the military police of the army of Republika Srpska? This

25 came about because you and another individual were arrested by the

Page 23527

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23528

1 military authorities of Republika Srpska, and then as a sign of protest,

2 he blocked some line of communication; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. Well, I see that on several -- in several instances you went to

15 intervene on his behalf.

16 JUDGE MAY: I think we'll go into private session now.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23529

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe the accused has been referring

21 to tab 10, which is an indictment. However, if you read what's been

22 translated as an indictment, it does seem to contain some language which

23 could lead somebody to believe that some conclusions of fact were made

24 from it. So it's unclear. But that is the only document that the

25 Prosecution is in possession of.

Page 23530

1 JUDGE MAY: It's signed by the Prosecutor and it looks as though

2 he's setting out the reasons before the Court has ever heard. He's merely

3 proposing that the Court hears the case. It's fairly confusing.

4 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we in private session or open

6 session?

7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You mentioned during the examination-in-chief that you met Jovica

10 Stanisic; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. As far as I was able to gather, you didn't have a scheduled

13 meeting of any kind.

14 A. No, none at all. It was just a chance meeting.

15 Q. So you happened to meet him by chance in front of the car door as

16 he was getting into his car; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And you had never seen him before that. Somebody pointed him out

21 to you; right?

22 A. That's right. I'd never seen him before, and one of the men

23 pointed to him and told me who he was, and he said it would be a good idea

24 if you were to get to meet him, and that's what happened.

25 Q. So you went to Belgrade to intervene with an official of some kind

Page 23531

1 in favour of this friend of yours who was in prison; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then you went to the MUP, you waited there, and then somebody

4 who was present pointed out Jovica Stanisic to you and said that's Jovica

5 Stanisic, the chief of state security, go and talk to him if you want to

6 ask him for anything, he's an important man. Is that what happened, how

7 it happened?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you pulled Jovica Stanisic by his sleeve and complained to him

10 and said that there were some problems over there, and you wanted him to

11 prevail, using his authority to help you and help your friend out?

12 A. Well, I didn't pull him by the sleeve, but I did ask him to hear

13 my problem, and I presented the problem to him, I told him what it was.

14 Q. All right. That happens quite often to people in authority, that

15 somebody stops them in the street to complain about something and ask them

16 for something. So you didn't ask him to receive you in any way, nor did

17 he call you, nor did he know you, nor did you know him. Quite simply, you

18 came up to in the street, told him what it was all about, and asked for

19 his help, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you didn't even know what he looked like before, did you?

22 A. No, I didn't. I never had an opportunity of seeing him. I never

23 even saw him on television or in the papers.

24 Q. And you never talked to him before that. And as far as I was able

25 to gather, all this went on for less than a minute. It was a brief

Page 23532

1 encounter, and you said that this friend of yours had been arrested and

2 you were asking him to do what he could to help.

3 A. Yes, right.

4 Q. And is it true that he wasn't even able to remember who the man

5 was, this man that you had come to ask his help for?

6 A. That's right. He didn't know who he was. So he asked me.

7 Q. So you went up to him with a request on behalf of some man, and he

8 didn't even know who you were taking about; right? And he said who is

9 this man?

10 A. Yes. He asked me the man's name.

11 JUDGE MAY: If that's a convenient moment, we'll stop now.

12 Mr. Milosevic, you have an hour and ten minutes left, if you want

13 it. That will allow you extra time which you've asked for, and we've

14 taken that into account.

15 Have the amicus have any questions?

16 MR. KAY: Very briefly; five minutes.

17 JUDGE MAY: I said yesterday that we would consider the 92 bis

18 statements today. I think in the circumstances, so that we can try and

19 finish this witness today, we will postpone that until tomorrow, if you'd

20 tell Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

21 MR. GROOME: I'll advise her, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 23533

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Let us not go into any further detail, but tell me, please,

3 Mr. 1244, did the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic of Serbia

4 have any kind of influence over the decisions of the Crisis Staff of the

5 municipality you are talking about, that is municipality number 3, and

6 later on the War Presidency of that same municipality?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did the MUP of the Republic of Serbia have any kind of influence

9 over decisions taken by the authorities in your municipalities in March

10 and April 1992?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Let me see. You were saying something to the effect that this

13 person that we have established had been a volunteer over there but was

14 highly respected by the people, et cetera, that he was given some vehicles

15 as a gift. Is that right?

16 A. If you're referring to number 16, yes.

17 Q. Mr. Groome suggested that this was linked to war booty and that

18 they had been seized. However, you explained that those vehicles had been

19 abandoned. So they weren't snatched away from their owners but that they

20 were left behind after the Muslim forces had withdrawn; is that right?

21 A. I am not familiar with the exact details, but as far as I know,

22 after fighting in those -- in that village, when the army withdrew and the

23 Croats who had lived in that village, vehicles and some tractors were left

24 behind and this was collected in an organised manner and records were

25 made.

Page 23534

1 Q. Was it customary in those days for you to make gifts of vehicles

2 to certain persons that were the property of other persons?

3 A. There weren't many such instances, but there were a couple of

4 cases of that kind.

5 Q. Why was that done?

6 A. In this particular case regarding number 16, it was done as a sign

7 of gratitude for his contribution to the struggle and the defence of that

8 territory and the preservation of the territory from attacks by enemy

9 forces.

10 Q. Let me just find a tab number. I had here, but I'm afraid I'm --

11 I am unable to find it, a tab that related to a letter from your

12 municipality addressed to the municipality that Mr. Groome said should be

13 given number 26, a municipality in Serbia. Do you remember that?

14 MR. GROOME: It's tab 7.

15 JUDGE MAY: Tab 7.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do remember that letter.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Looking fleetingly through that letter, unfortunately I'm unable

19 to find it. I don't know which tab you mentioned. Seven. I see. Yes,

20 here it is.

21 And it says here this was addressed -- the heading is the Serbian

22 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbian municipality number 3. It

23 doesn't say number 3, but there's the name of the municipality.

24 And it says: "To the brotherly Serbian people of municipality

25 number 26," which is a municipality well within -- deep within the

Page 23535

1 territory of Serbia; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So the person, number 16, who fought as a volunteer in the army of

4 Republika Srpska came from that town; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then it goes on to say: "The Serbian people of the Serbian

7 municipality of number 3 have managed to defend the territory," et cetera.

8 And then it goes on to say, during fierce battles for the survival of the

9 Serbian people in this area, immeasurable assistance and great courage was

10 shown by your citizen and hero of the Serbian people of this area, and

11 then the name of number 16 appears. And then it says the Serbian people

12 in this way wishes to express official gratitude to the people of

13 municipality number 26 in this way for having such a son. Is that right?

14 And then it suggests that a brotherly union be formed between the

15 two municipalities and that this should be a symbol of the necessary

16 Serbian unity which is needed so much, et cetera. And then signed by the

17 president of the Assembly of your municipality, who figures also under one

18 of these numbers on the list.

19 So is it clear from this letter too and from what you gave by way

20 of explanation that this was absolutely a volunteer, without any doubt,

21 from a relatively large municipality within Serbia who won some kind of

22 respect and confidence among the people there? Was it clear that this

23 person was under no circumstances a representative of any body of Serbia

24 who was there in that capacity but only in the capacity of volunteer? Is

25 that right, 1244?

Page 23536

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Very well. So we've cleared that up now.

3 Now, shall we please look at tab 13. It is dated the 1st of

4 December, 1992, and it is the command of a brigade, of an infantry brigade

5 of the army of Republika Srpska, and I should like you to look at it

6 briefly because it relates to your municipality, and it is a document

7 dated December 1992. A brigade of the army of Republika Srpska is

8 involved, and the heading is: Report on certain developments contributing

9 to the weakening of morale or undermining morale among the soldiers and

10 increasing the complexity of the situation within that brigade and the

11 municipality in question.

12 And then in paragraph 5 it says that among the Serbian "special

13 forces," criminals are hiding of a Yugoslav-wide calibre as demonstrated

14 by their behaviour a couple of days after the liberation of your

15 municipality. And then it goes on to say unheard-of looting of private

16 and social property was engaged in, which is being transferred to Serbia

17 and perhaps also to other parts of Yugoslavia. It says that they would --

18 they are joined by certain local criminals, et cetera.

19 So from this report, which is rather lengthy, and I don't have the

20 time to -- to read it in full, there's reference to stealing of the

21 treasury of the SDK service to the value of about 500.000 German marks, et

22 cetera.

23 Does it follow from this that the brigade command of the army of

24 Republika Srpska for the area is endeavouring to eliminate unlawful

25 criminal behaviour by certain volunteers who appeared in that area in one

Page 23537

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23538

1 way or another?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In your testimony, you also said that you saw an order by the

4 brigade commander prior to the battles that were one of the topics covered

5 by your testimony; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it follows from your testimony that this was a regular army

8 brigade; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And it follows from what you said that the conflict lasted between

11 half an hour and one hour; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I do not have the figure, and you yourself didn't mention it. How

14 many people were killed in those conflicts and the events that occurred in

15 your municipality at that time?

16 A. As far as I know, two men were killed and one was wounded.

17 Q. What were those two men killed and one wounded by ethnicity?

18 A. One of the wounded was a Serb. No, sorry. The first one that was

19 killed was also a Serb, and later on it was established that he was deaf,

20 and he didn't stop when he was ordered to stop. He didn't hear the order.

21 And the second man who was killed, as far as I can recollect, was a Croat.

22 Q. So in the war in your municipality that lasted altogether between

23 half an hour and one hour, there were three casualties, two dead of which

24 one a Serb, one a Croat, and one wounded, a Serb; is that right?

25 A. Yes, as far as I can remember.

Page 23539

1 Q. After that, Mr. Groome asked you what the role was of the local

2 police. Is my assumption correct that the brigade command, which had the

3 town under its control, insisted that the local police perform its regular

4 duties, that is, to maintain public law and order and care for the safety

5 and property of the citizens? Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was there any organised expulsion of citizens of Muslim and

8 Croatian ethnicity from your municipality?

9 A. Organised expulsions? There were none.

10 Q. Since you spoke about prisoners or detainees and said that they

11 were in the police station but because it was too small they also used the

12 building of the TO, the primary school and the secondary school, you

13 mentioned that among them there were both members of the armed forces of

14 the opposing side, and other persons. I would like you to be more precise

15 and tell me how many of the detainees were men in uniform and who were

16 carrying weapons and who were captured in the combat and how many others.

17 A. It is rather hard for me to give you a percentage, but the first

18 night, only those who put up resistance were taken into captivity.

19 Afterwards, the people who on the basis of confiscated documents and plans

20 containing names of people and the military organisation and also any

21 information obtained during the investigation, those were then taken into

22 detention. But during the first few days, mostly people who were with

23 arms, who were armed at the moment of arrest, or who were members of those

24 armed formations. Later on, other people were taken into custody as well

25 for whom it was not possible to prove that they had weapons or were

Page 23540

1 members of any armed formations. But they were the smaller group, and

2 they could be described as civilians.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we can't hear that. Could the question

4 be repeated, please. We couldn't hear it.

5 JUDGE MAY: The interpreters have not been able to hear the

6 question. Could you repeat it, please.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Obviously, the microphone wasn't

8 switched on.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You said that some of them were members of Croatian and Muslim

11 units and that the others, who were not members of Croatian or Muslim

12 units and wearing uniforms and carrying arms, were taken into detention

13 during the investigation. So those are the people that you found on

14 confiscated documents as being members of Green Berets, the HOS, et

15 cetera; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, please, what happened to the people that were treated as

18 prisoners of war as they were captured during the fighting, and what

19 happened to those others who were detained?

20 A. Most of the persons who were treated as prisoners of war were

21 exchanged for previously captured Serbs in the neighbouring municipality

22 by Croatian and Muslim units.

23 Q. Very well. Later on, you go on to say that number 16 asked you to

24 drive him to Belgrade, and you went there to a building belonging to the

25 MUP of Serbia in the courtyard. As far as I understood it, it's some kind

Page 23541

1 of prefab shack or something like that.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then, as you say, you met Franko Simatovic; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And Franko Simatovic inquired as to what had happened. He wanted

6 to get a report from you; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And as this person didn't know how to write a report, he had

9 informed him orally about what had happened?

10 A. Yes, I think so, orally.

11 Q. But Franko Simatovic headed the intelligence administration in the

12 state security service and it was his duty to collect as much information

13 as he could get hold of.

14 A. I don't know exactly what the description of his job was, but I

15 assume that was part of his job too.

16 Q. It is clear from this, isn't it, that he didn't give any orders to

17 anyone. He just wanted to obtain information, to learn about events that

18 you could provide information about.

19 A. Yes. I heard him asking for a report. I didn't hear him issuing

20 any orders or instructions.

21 Q. Later on, you -- let me just find tab 3 with the names on it for a

22 moment, please. Here it is.

23 Later on, you say that in the office of number 9 -- who was a

24 functionary in your municipality, that is not in dispute.

25 A. Yes.

Page 23542

1 Q. A meeting was held, attended by the commander of unit 19.

2 Actually, I think it is not at issue and nor does it reveal your identity

3 if I say that the commander of the brigade was present.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And he came to the office, to the responsible official of your

6 municipality, didn't he?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. To tell him that he had replaced number 16 primarily and obviously

9 because of the reasons contained in the report we quoted from a moment ago

10 about various unlawful activities. Is that right or not?

11 A. This information was written much later, but one could answer yes,

12 one could say yes.

13 Q. Explain this to me now, please: As the commander had replaced

14 this man, number 16, from what you said, it would emerge that the

15 leadership of your municipality, number 3 municipality, was against that

16 dismissal and that a rather large delegation was set up which went to the

17 corps commander to intervene on behalf of the man who had been replaced

18 and intervene against his replacement; right?

19 A. Yes. Part of that delegation was against it. The civilian part,

20 if I can put it that way.

21 Q. So the purpose of you -- of your testimony was, if I remember

22 correctly, that you said you went to complain about the position taken by

23 the commander to replace number 16 for him to rescind the decision; right?

24 A. The reason we went to the corps commander was that, yes.

25 Q. As I understand it, this delegation of yours was successful in

Page 23543

1 doing what it set out to do. I say successful from the aspects of its

2 goals because it managed to prevail upon the corps commander that the man

3 wasn't guilty and that he should keep him on; right?

4 A. Well, that's rather a complex question. The delegation did talk

5 to the corps commander. The corps commander heard what the previous

6 brigade commander had to say and listened to us, the civilian section. On

7 his own, autonomously as the commander, he issued an order whereby number

8 16 was appointed the commander of that brigade.

9 Q. So that part of the delegation, the civil part, the civilian part

10 of the delegation which went to see the corps commander, was quite

11 convincing with respect to number 16's case.

12 A. Well, judging by the situation as it evolved, and having listened

13 to the unit commanders or leaders, they actually placed an ultimatum, and

14 they said, "If you're going to replace number 16, we're going to leave

15 with him and then the commander can defend the area himself alone." So

16 when they came out with that and the corps commander was informed of the

17 situation, he made the decision to have number 16 appointed commander of

18 the brigade.

19 Q. All right. Now, explain this to me. I'm not quite clear on this

20 point. Later on, you say that in July 1992, you went to talk about -- to

21 discuss number 16 with number 9, that is to say the leader of your

22 municipality, then you went to talk to number 11, another municipality

23 leader; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then number 12, another municipality head man, and as far as I

Page 23544

1 was able to gather, deputy brigade commander for a time; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you yourself; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, I understood it this way: I understood you to say that the

6 reasons for your departure was to find people in Belgrade from your local

7 region, that is to say to find some connections for them to lobby with

8 General Mladic and to try and achieve what you were striving for; is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what were you striving for? What did you hope to achieve?

12 A. Well, the delegation which left, part of the delegation had a

13 positive opinion about the man, the other part had a negative opinion. So

14 we went to those, as you say, to pull strings from the local people from

15 our area to see what could be done to find the best possible solution and

16 to go to the commander of the army of Republika Srpska, General Mladic, to

17 see what we could do.

18 Q. As far as I was able to gather, you went to Belgrade to find some

19 prominent individuals following a private line, a private connection line.

20 You didn't go to the institutions themselves, you went to people who were

21 natives of your region and who could perhaps pull a few strings and help

22 you to achieve what you wanted.

23 A. Yes. We went to people who were natives of our region, originally

24 came from those parts.

25 Q. And then this particular person - on the list he's number 25 - he

Page 23545

1 put you in touch with number 14, who was also a native of your region; is

2 that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And this man, 25, who worked in the federal organs, is also from

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?

6 A. Yes. He was from our municipality.

7 Q. I see, your municipality.

8 A. Yes. He was born in the municipality.

9 Q. Now, I think that any explanations you gave to begin with with

10 respect to this man 25, I think you said that he was a functionary in the

11 Federal Secretariat for National Defence, and from my information I can

12 see that he was in the Federal Secretariat for Internal Affairs. Did you

13 perhaps mix that up or didn't you know yourself actually? You knew he was

14 a functionary but where exactly you might not have known. In a federal

15 organ, right?

16 A. As far as I know, quite a lot earlier he was in the Federal

17 Ministry of the Interior, but just before the war broke out, I think he

18 worked in -- he was an employee working in the Presidency of the

19 then-Yugoslavia, a low-ranking employee.

20 Q. But anyway, with his ties to your native region, he managed to

21 link you up with number 14 who was also from your parts; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then they got in touch with various functionaries to see how

24 matters stood, and among other things, you say that they communicated with

25 Branko Simatovic; right? Franko Simatovic.

Page 23546

1 A. Yes, he did appear later on personally.

2 Q. And you explained to him why you had come - how shall I put this?

3 - why you were mediating, acting as go-between, why you had taken this

4 initiative. And he asked you what fool was it who put him in that post;

5 is that right?

6 A. Yes. Those were his words.

7 Q. So on the basis of what you told him, his response was what fool

8 put him in that post in the first place.

9 A. Yes. That's what he said. Which fool put the man in a place --

10 position of that kind.

11 Q. Mr. Groome then went on to ask you what decision was actually

12 taken with respect to all that and the conversation you had, and your

13 answer was that they themselves told you that they weren't the right

14 people to either dismiss or appoint others. And then number 14 called up

15 General Mladic on the phone and invited your municipality leader, number

16 9, to come in for a chat; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On the basis of your testimony, I understand it that General

19 Mladic asked them, because both of them were from Bosnia-Herzegovina

20 originally, and they were calling him from Belgrade to discuss the matter,

21 he said, "What are you looking for in Belgrade? What are you doing in

22 Belgrade?"

23 A. Yes. He told this man number 9 off and said, "What are you doing

24 in Belgrade? Come back to where you're supposed to be. What are you

25 doing over there?"

Page 23547

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23548

1 Q. Well, is it quite clear from that that, according to the people

2 you talked to in Belgrade, and they themselves said that it wasn't in

3 their power to either appoint or release individuals, and judging by

4 General Mladic's response and asking what are you doing in Belgrade, come

5 back to where your place is, does that clearly indicate that these were

6 questions that came under the competencies exclusively of the authorities,

7 whether military or civilian, of Republika Srpska? Isn't that right?

8 A. Yes, under the jurisdiction of the army.

9 Q. And no organ from Yugoslavia or Serbia should meddle in that;

10 right?

11 A. As far as I know, no.

12 Q. Very well. This person was later arrested and released ten days

13 later, and as far as I was able to understand from your testimony, in the

14 autumn of 1992 you personally, but at the initiative of the other leaders

15 from your municipality, municipality number 3, you asked him to came back

16 and assist you; right?

17 A. If you mean number 16, then my answer is yes.

18 Q. Number 16. I see. Because he left the area, and then at your

19 entreaty he returned. But the condition he posed was if you wanted him

20 back, then a letter should be sent for him to be permitted to return as a

21 volunteer; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that letter was addressed on the basis of a Crisis Staff

24 decision that had been taken or, rather, it was signed by the president,

25 number 9 on the list; right?

Page 23549

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the people you contacted said they would try and have

3 permission granted for him to go as a volunteer; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And after that, the man turned up again in the army of Republika

6 Srpska as a volunteer; right? Number 16, I mean.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then with respect to these problems, somebody from the MUP of

9 Serbia arrived in your area to ask what the problems were, and the answer

10 was that there were no problems; right?

11 A. Could you be more specific, please? We can't mention which area,

12 of course, specifically, but --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. He -- was there a problem because this person had once worked in

16 the SUP of Serbia? This can be seen from the minutes. It says SUP and

17 translated into MUP, and SUP existed before the MUP, Secretariat --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Rather the Ministry, interpreter's note.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. -- and then somebody had come from the police force to ask whether

21 there were any problems with respect to this citizen of the Republic of

22 Serbia who had gone there as a volunteer and had once worked in the SUP,

23 and the answer was that there were no problems. Is that right?

24 A. Yes, right.

25 Q. And finally, you were asked by Mr. Groome whether General Mladic

Page 23550

1 was conscious of the activities of number 16, whether he was aware of 16's

2 activities. From what you testified here, namely that you went to

3 Belgrade to try and find people you knew to pull strings, people from your

4 part of the world to intervene with General Mladic with respect to number

5 -- the treatment of number 16, is the logical conclusion that General

6 Mladic had no information at all about the conduct of number 16? He

7 couldn't have had any information as to 16's conduct.

8 A. My conclusion was that General Mladic did have information about

9 this gentleman under number 16.

10 Q. But you say that when he arrived in your town, that as far as I

11 can see from the list here, the president of the Crisis Staff called you

12 up to come and that Mladic was present and that he was then informed and

13 then he intervened to solve the problems, to have the problems solved.

14 Was that how it was? Is that how it happened or did I misunderstand you?

15 A. General Mladic arrived after my arrest and the arrest of number

16 10. He was there afterwards in our town, afterwards.

17 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the question. We apologise.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Because there were problems?

20 A. Yes, because there were problems.

21 Q. So he wanted to help you solve the problems. Did he act in

22 conformity with the rules of service and his function and role or did he

23 suggest that you turn a blind eye to what somebody was doing, to

24 somebody's behaviour because of some omissions and mistakes that had been

25 made?

Page 23551

1 A. The questions had -- the problems had already been -- were already

2 being solved, but he didn't say that anybody should turn a blind eye to

3 anybody else. He said that we should act in conformity with the rules of

4 service and the law.

5 Q. I see. According to the rules of service and the law.

6 A. Yes. And those measures were being undertaken at the time.

7 Q. All right. Now, let's take a look at tab 15. I'm not quite sure

8 of its importance but indirectly, we can deduce something from the

9 document nonetheless. The stamp belongs to a brigade of the army of

10 Republika Srpska and it says in the heading of the brigade in question of

11 Republika Srpska of municipality number 3, the date is the 21st of August,

12 1992, and that is nothing else than a certificate. It says certificate.

13 In fact, that's the title. "Certificate. This is to certify that 5

14 Motorola radio sets --" that's what it says. The hand-held radio sets of

15 the Radius type, and then the figures which are relevant, two reserve

16 batteries, one stationary battery charger, a Motorola belonging to the

17 state security service of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, and that

18 these items were being used by this brigade. That is to say they are on

19 loan. "The aforementioned equipment shall be taken from the brigade's

20 command by" such a such a person, and the name is given, "and he is

21 authorised to transfer it to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and hand

22 it over to the aforementioned owner."

23 That means they sent a man to take this property over, which is on

24 -- was given on loan to the brigade, and this refers to just several

25 pieces, five, actually, five Motorola radio sets, not to mention the

Page 23552

1 reserve batteries and all the rest of it - they're not important - and to

2 return them to the owner. Isn't that right?

3 A. So what's your question? I do apologise, but what question do you

4 have for me?

5 Q. What does this tab 15 indicate as regards any role whatsoever of

6 anyone from Serbia? They lent several Motorolas to the army that happened

7 to be there, and then they went in search of them and asked them to be

8 returned to their owners. Isn't that right?

9 A. That is what it says in this certificate. I don't see that any

10 other explanation could be given.

11 Q. Neither do I, Mr. 1244. That is why I put this question to you.

12 And finally, let me just ask you, I will ask you that, this same

13 question in different form, but in the events in your municipality, number

14 3, and generally in that whole area, did any bodies from the Republic of

15 Serbia play any kind of role whatsoever?

16 A. As far as I know, they did not.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. I've

18 saved 15 minutes.

19 MR. KAY: If we could go into closed session for the beginning of

20 some questions I have to ask.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23553

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 23553 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23554

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 23554 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23555

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

13 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

14 Q. Sir, Mr. Milosevic asked you several questions about the meeting

15 of the delegation in Belgrade during which one of the members of the

16 delegation had a conversation with General Mladic on the phone and

17 suggested to you that the conclusions to be drawn by that set of events

18 was that it was really not within the competency of any Serbian or federal

19 authorities but in the competency of Mladic to deal with number 16.

20 My question to you is: After that meeting, number 16 was

21 arrested; is that correct?

22 A. Mr. Mladic spoke to gentleman number 9, and the gentleman that was

23 arrested later on was number 16.

24 Q. Correct. When number 16 was arrested, you've testified earlier

25 that he asked you to talk to Frenki Simatovic about securing his release.

Page 23556

1 Did he at any time ever ask you to speak to General Mladic about securing

2 his release?

3 A. With me, no.

4 Q. And after this meeting with which there was -- during which there

5 was a phone call made to Mladic, when it was requested for number 16 to

6 return to the municipality and to once again work in the capacity that he

7 had before, he requested -- you've testified that he requested that a

8 letter be sent to the State Security Service of Serbia. Did he ever

9 request that a similar letter, official request, be sent to the command of

10 the army of Republika Srpska or to General Mladic in person?

11 A. I am not aware of him making any such request, such a letter.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic suggested to you that all of the weapons in the

13 area of the municipality came from the local stores of the Yugoslav

14 People's Army. Are you or were you aware of a particular type of weapon,

15 a Praga, being made available to the local forces in the municipality?

16 A. I am aware that that particular weapon came from the west, from

17 the direction of the west. From the west, from the western part of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. And how many Pragas were brought from the west in this manner that

20 you've described or from other areas outside the municipality?

21 A. As far as I know, maybe five or six of those pieces.

22 Q. And can you describe briefly, what is a Praga, what type of

23 weapon?

24 A. As far as I know, it is an anti-aircraft vehicle on rubber tires.

25 It is partially armoured; it has some armour on it. And I think it also

Page 23557

1 carries two or three barrels of a higher calibre. I think the calibre is

2 30 millimetres.

3 Q. And do you know the specific source of that weapon prior to its

4 being brought into your area and distributed there?

5 A. Now, whether it came from the western part of Bosnia-Herzegovina

6 or Western Slavonia, I'm not quite sure, but in any event, it came from

7 the west.

8 Q. Now, with respect to the 30 men whom you testified in your initial

9 examination were members of the State Security Service of Serbia and the

10 20 members of the municipality that were trained, when they arrived back

11 in the municipality, I believe you said sometime in April, were they

12 already dressed in uniforms when they arrived?

13 A. Yes. They arrived dressed in uniforms.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This allegation that 30 men came

16 from the State Security Service of Serbia is an exclusive allegation by

17 Mr. Groome. The witness --

18 JUDGE MAY: I agree. I have in mind your cross-examination on the

19 point that they came from the Serb Radical Party.

20 Mr. Groome, that is correct. Now, have you got any more?

21 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

22 Q. When these men arrived, did they come with weapons? Were they

23 already in possession of weapons?

24 A. Yes. They had personal infantry weapons, sidearms.

25 Q. And prior to coming to the municipality, had all -- these men who

Page 23558

1 may have originally begun with the Serbian Radical Party, had they all

2 been trained at Ilok, to the best of your knowledge?

3 A. They said that they had been trained at Ilok.

4 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, who was responsible for the

5 Ilok training camp? Was it the Serb Radical Party or some other

6 organisation?

7 A. I don't have any official information as to exactly who they

8 belonged to, but they said that it was a camp of the MUP of Serbia. Now,

9 whose it was officially, I don't know exactly.

10 Q. Drawing your attention to the time when you went up to the MUP of

11 Serbia to attempt to secure the release of number 16, just prior to

12 meeting Jovica Stanisic, did you have a conversation with some of the

13 other men there and did they indicate to you that they knew and had fought

14 with number 16 previously?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Groome cannot put the question

18 in this way that the witness met with Jovica Stanisic. The witness

19 himself said that he had never seen him, that he was pointed out to him

20 and that he approached him in the street as he was about to enter the car.

21 Nor did this one know him. So there was no meeting.

22 JUDGE MAY: That may be -- that may be an interpretation of the

23 evidence, but, Mr. Groome, don't lead in cross-examination --

24 re-examination, I mean.

25 MR. GROOME:

Page 23559

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 23560

1 Q. Prior to seeing Mr. Stanisic, did the people who were in the hut

2 indicate to you whether they had prior knowledge of number 16?

3 A. Whether they knew him?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Yes. Two or three of the men who were there conveyed to me the

6 impression that they knew him from before.

7 Q. Did they describe what context they knew him before?

8 A. That they knew him from Eastern Slavonia, that they had been

9 together in Eastern Slavonia.

10 Q. And was that in a social context or a combat context?

11 A. It was in the context that they waged war together in Eastern

12 Slavonia.

13 Q. Now, you've testified about Frenki Simatovic asking number 16 to

14 report on the events of the municipality. My question to you now is were

15 you ever present when a member and officer of the VRS made a similar

16 request to number 16 to report to him?

17 A. While number 16 was the brigade commander, he certainly wrote

18 reports to the corps command, or people from his command did and he would

19 sign those reports.

20 Q. Mr. Milosevic has characterised number 16 as a volunteer. Are you

21 aware of any other situation where a volunteer arrived at a particular

22 location and had an entire brigade placed under his command?

23 A. I do not know of any volunteer being in command of a brigade.

24 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1244, that concludes your evidence. Thank

Page 23561

1 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are, as far as these

2 proceedings are concerned, you're free to go.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of July,

5 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25