Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23899

1 Wednesday, 9 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: I understand the witness is here.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll have the witness, please, Mr. Lilic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like you to tell me how you

11 plan to have these proceedings as cross-examination take place.

12 JUDGE MAY: Could you get the witness, please. No need to wait.

13 Yes.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You didn't hear me?

15 JUDGE MAY: No. It's getting the witness in.

16 But what is the question?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, here's my question: I'd like

18 to know how you're going to conduct these proceedings, the

19 cross-examination, because the night before last, which was the earliest

20 possible time that I could do so, because that's when my associate

21 received a binder with the transcripts --

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE MAY: Let Mr. Lilic take a seat.

24 Yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As I was saying, the night before

Page 23900

1 last, which was the time that my associate can visit me at 6.00 p.m.,

2 prior to yesterday's day and Mr. Riedlmayer's testimony, I received a

3 binder with the transcripts of some sort of telephone conversations, and

4 that's the binder I have here. And yesterday, when you finished work here

5 and I left, I was given another binder, this one here, with several

6 hundred pages to it of different stenograms with a large number of

7 exhibits, which I also had to read through. And I did manage to read

8 through all this, and of course I can conduct the cross-examination of

9 this witness with respect to the material contained in that binder.

10 However, it's quite obvious that I'm going to need --

11 JUDGE MAY: Let me interrupt you for a moment. We don't know what

12 this is about. We haven't had these documents, and we don't know what the

13 relevance to this witness is.

14 MR. NICE: I can deal with -- first of all, the stenographic

15 notes, the stenographic notes of the Council for Coordination, which the

16 Chamber will remember were brought in on the last occasion and have yet to

17 be identified by the witness, the Chamber will recall on the last occasion

18 I said I would go to them probably only for a couple of quotations, and

19 that's my intention in re-examination, because by their late production by

20 the authorities - they have been requested for over a year - it seemed to

21 be quite impossible to have a full examination of the notes by the witness

22 beyond the couple of passages I want him to deal with, one of which he's

23 already dealt with, and the notes will have to speak for themselves.

24 So that is the majority of the documents in the large binder

25 that's been provided to the accused. I wasn't aware that he was being

Page 23901

1 provided with the balance of the documents in that binder. There was no

2 need for him to be provided with those. It's really out of an abundance

3 of generosity, because they are actually documents I may refer to in

4 re-examination. So there was no need to refer him to them now and he's

5 had an advantage that he normally wouldn't otherwise have had.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

7 MR. NICE: So that is what that all amounts to.

8 JUDGE MAY: So what are you proposing to do this morning? You are

9 going to ask the witness some further questions?

10 MR. NICE: Only in -- no, in re-examination. It's all

11 re-examination. If the Court remembers, I left over until today, at the

12 Court's instruction, the question of identification of the stenographic

13 notes, and the other documents are documents that would ordinarily arise

14 in the course of re-examination and have, by one route or another, been

15 provided in advance.

16 JUDGE MAY: Well, are they available for us now?

17 MR. NICE: They certainly are, yes.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'll have them, please.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My comment and objection had to do

22 with the time that can be given me, because I received the documents just

23 before this session. Regardless of the fact that Mr. Nice just said he's

24 going to skim through them, get through them quickly, I have to ask the

25 witness a number of questions related to those documents. Now, you're

Page 23902

1 giving me one hour, according to Rule 92 bis, whereas I have two large

2 binders here which I was given the night before last and yesterday and --

3 JUDGE MAY: Let me stop you by saying this: We can -- we can

4 shorten this. In fact, you had half an hour left. But obviously in the

5 light of these new documents, we will consider further time, provided, of

6 course, it's -- it's reasonable. Now, if the Prosecution do not wish to

7 ask any more questions, what we'll do is this: We will go into your

8 cross-examination, you can start asking questions about these documents,

9 we'll see how far we get in half an hour, and then we'll review the

10 position. There's no question, of course, that the original limit would

11 apply if there is new material, which there appears to be. But at the

12 moment, we can't judge precisely how long that time should be. But, of

13 course, we have to bear in mind that the witness has come back especially

14 to continue this evidence and that, therefore, time cannot be endless.

15 But you begin now with your -- your cross-examination. It may be

16 sensible for the witness to have the -- the bundle.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, two points: One, I didn't answer one of

18 Your Honour's earlier points. As to the bundle, I repeat that the

19 majority of the documents are intended for re-examination, may or may not

20 be used, and there's no real need for the witness to have them in advance

21 and there's no particular need for the accused to deal with them in

22 advance, but he's simply been provided with them.

23 The other point you asked me about -- or rather, the accused

24 raised and I didn't deal with was transcripts of intercepts. There were

25 some transcripts of intercepts of phone calls with this witness. For

Page 23903

1 example, covering the French airline -- the French pilots and their

2 release, which were provided to the accused out of an abundance of caution

3 and in case they constituted Rule 68 material, and that is why they were

4 provided. So they fall into a different category. But I certainly

5 wouldn't press the witness or the accused to go through the binder of

6 documents at the moment.

7 JUDGE MAY: Well, the difficulty, Mr. Nice, is this: That the

8 more material you supply, the more material you try and use in the case,

9 the more opportunity there is for cross-examination.

10 MR. NICE: Absolutely.

11 JUDGE MAY: And further time. And I think I must ask you to

12 restrict the amount of materials that is now put upon us most carefully,

13 because not only is there the question of time; there's the question of

14 the sheer volume of materials and trying to cope with them.

15 MR. NICE: All that is very much in my mind.

16 As to the majority of these -- this particular binder, it is, as I

17 say, the stenographic notes. And those are documents that cannot be

18 resisted as documents of value at some stage for consideration but not

19 necessarily with this witness, because of course they -- as the Chamber

20 will recall, they relate to a period of time before he was in office.

21 Indeed, his account is that this particular committee ceased to operate

22 once he came into office. And he gave evidence about simply one passage

23 that he'd read in one of the minutes. There it is.

24 JUDGE MAY: Well, it would seem sensible if the witness had the

25 binder, in case there are questions to be asked about it. And I see the

Page 23904

1 first tab seems to be 34. Is it proposed it should be additional to the

2 exhibits which we already have for this witness?

3 MR. NICE: Yes. And I think 34 is one that I almost certainly

4 won't rely on. It's too substantial and serves a very limited purpose, so

5 I shouldn't trouble too much about that at the moment. But yes, for ease

6 of ordering and recording, they follow along sequentially.

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

8 Mr. Milosevic, deal if you would with this binder, with those

9 matters on which the witness specifically can deal himself. If there are

10 other matters with which he can't deal, then of course we will allow you

11 to address us on them or to deal with them with some other witness.

12 Yes. Let us begin.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, don't you think that the

14 fact that Mr. Nice calls additional examination or re-examination in view

15 of these new binders in fact represents the second half time of the

16 examination-in-chief?

17 JUDGE MAY: No. No. Let us see how we get on. We've got these

18 documents. The Prosecution say they're going to rely on them. We'll have

19 to see whether they are admissible or not. And what we need to do is to

20 start the examination now.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lilic, would you please take a look --

Page 23905

1 actually, I'm going to start with the binder which relates to the

2 so-called intercepted conversations, the intercepts. And I don't say by

3 chance alleged or so-called because there are things in this material

4 which the term "so-called" -- which merit the term "so-called."

5 Now, Slobodan Milosevic, General Perisic, that particular

6 conversation on the 1st of December, 1995, and the number, Mr. Lilic, is

7 02263006.

8 MR. KAY: The witness doesn't have this bundle.

9 JUDGE MAY: What is this? Mr. Kay, can you assist us in this

10 matter?

11 MR. KAY: Yes.

12 JUDGE MAY: I really find this amount of material so late

13 confusing.

14 MR. KAY: This is Rule 68 material that has been served on the

15 amici and the accused by the Prosecution. It comes as a -- a separate

16 bundle that was delivered to us on the 7th of July, and it is this file

17 that the accused is using to cross-examine the witness with.

18 JUDGE MAY: Have we copies of it?

19 MR. NICE: I can find some, yes. There's one copy available at

20 the moment.

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, the witness had better have that.

22 MR. KAY: Have mine, as we can share.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. 006, those are the last digits, the last three digits of this ERN

Page 23906

1 number. And it's in the second half of the file of the binder, because

2 the Serbian text is in part 2, 02963006.

3 A. I've found it.

4 Q. All right, fine. So the date is the 1st of December, 1995. And

5 for the most part, these conversations relate to the release of the

6 pilots. And I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that "M" is

7 Milosevic and "P" is Perisic. I assume you're able to glean that

8 yourself.

9 Now, I'm just going to refer to a couple of points.

10 "Milosevic: Mladic promised that day when we were in Dobanovci to

11 implement, him, he personally, the investigation to see what had happened

12 to the pilots."

13 Is it true -- do you know that Jacques Chirac called me up in

14 Dayton any number of times to insist that I intervene with respect to the

15 authorities of Republika Srpska to have the pilots found? You remember

16 that, I'm sure.

17 A. Yes, I remember him asking for that in Dayton. It was even stated

18 that France would place an ultimatum on signing the Dayton Agreement with

19 the release of the pilots, and I do know that he did call for that.

20 Q. We insisted, if you remember, on the fact they should give us an

21 answer as to what had happened to the pilots, and they took -- for a long

22 time they said that they had no information about the pilots, that they

23 didn't know what had happened to them; isn't that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then I say to Perisic, he promised the day we were in

Page 23907

1 Dobanovci that he personally would launch an investigation into the

2 whereabouts of the pilots, because he said he didn't know what had

3 happened to them but he said that he would undertake an investigation to

4 find out. That is what Mladic promised.

5 A. Yes, that's what Mladic said, and the others said that they had no

6 knowledge as to the whereabouts of the pilots.

7 Q. And then I go on to say that it was -- that we had to do this post

8 haste because the conference was coming up and I meant the conference in

9 Paris where the Dayton Agreement was to be signed. And I said, "We have

10 to know their fate in the next day or two." And Perisic says, "I've

11 already called him up and he says he's working on it and he's grumbling

12 and complaining a lot because he's encountering problems." So these two

13 municipality presidents are calling him up. "They have to come and see

14 you. I'll do what I can again," and so on. And I say, "There's no

15 problem there. I will receive them all as of Monday onwards, but I find

16 this question critical because the French are now organising the

17 conference. They are the protagonists of everything. They're friends.

18 And we have to start negotiating with them, and I can't give them an

19 answer as to what happened to the pilots. It's not serious. And quite

20 simply, it devalues everything we've done so far."

21 I'll read a little more slowly. Yes, thank you to the

22 interpreters, because they don't have the text.

23 And then I go on to say, "Please tell him -- let him tell you what

24 he knows straight away and do what he can. I want them found dead or

25 alive. He has to find them." And Perisic says, "Very well." And I once

Page 23908

1 again insist upon this and say that the whole of the public expects it,

2 and we have to be at the conference over there. So the public expects to

3 know."

4 "What do they need those two pilots for? Let them find them."

5 And then I once again say, "He promised, when he was here five days ago

6 --" and I'm referring to Dobanovci. And he said, "I didn't delve into

7 that personally, I couldn't have cared at the time, but I am going to take

8 it into my own hands and do it now personally." So if he is a man of his

9 word, let him see it through. So that, then, is clear, I think,

10 Mr. Lilic, our insistence, I mean, and the clear observation that up until

11 that time the authorities of Republika Srpska had refused to look into any

12 information as to the whereabouts of the pilots. And we insisted that

13 they should be found at all cost. Is that right?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. And then turn the page, please. Milutinovic is calling me up, and

16 he says, "I apologise for having to call, but it seems that they're making

17 fools of us collectively." And I say to him the following: "Say what you

18 want." And he says: "Karadzic has stated or, rather, conveyed the

19 message by Daniel Schiffer to Chirac, that man Chirac, that Karadzic would

20 release those two pilots in return for a better status for Republika

21 Srpska." And I say, "You don't say." And Milutinovic says, "Yes. I

22 can't believe that they're saying things like that."

23 And then he goes on to mention some writings of Le Figaro

24 newspaper, and "I'll check it out." And then I say, "Well, check it out

25 and call him. Is it possible that they're taking hostages in that way and

Page 23909

1 making a barter arrangement or blackmail?" And now, our reactions, I say

2 once again, "I can't believe that they're going to be so stupid." And

3 then he says, "Well, we appear to be fools," says Milutinovic towards the

4 end. And I say to him, "We're fools because we want peace." And Milan

5 Milutinovic again says, "Well, quite possibly that he mentioned Schiffer."

6 And I say, "Are you listening to me, Milan? Call him up, because it's

7 impossible that he did something like that. Check it out. And then have

8 them deny it. I don't want -- deny it straight away. Don't shame

9 yourself by doing things like that. Anybody that does things like that,

10 we have nothing to say to him any more and we were resigned because of the

11 statement that reached us," and so on and so forth.

12 The conversation goes on, and I end on the next page and say, "Let

13 them deny this straight away so that they can't blackmail us with these

14 people. It's an ugly thing to do that. This is an opportunity. Fisher

15 gave them the opportunity --" I don't see what I meant there, but anyway,

16 I say, "This is a good opportunity and it's not a good idea for them to

17 blackmail people using human people, human persons." And I say, "Can you

18 explain them to them?" And he says, "Yes, I can." So I insist upon this

19 being done, not only not to complicate matters further but to stick to

20 their word. There's nothing to improve or not improve it. This would be

21 blackmail and the taking of hostages again.

22 Do you remember all that?

23 A. Yes. When it comes to those two pilots, I was very well informed.

24 I do remember the efforts that were made to have them released. And you

25 know that I personally took part in their release ultimately.

Page 23910

1 Q. Yes, of course. That's why I want to go through all this, where

2 your participation is quite obvious.

3 Take a look at the next page, please, 008 are the last three

4 digits of that page, and here is what it says: Slobodan Milosevic talking

5 to an unknown person, and that unknown person you will recognise as being

6 yourself; isn't that right?

7 A. Yes, that's me. I've had a chance to look through this. That is

8 me.

9 Q. All right. It says, "Good day, Mr. President. Hello,

10 Mr. President." And I say, "And where are you?" And the answer is, "Here

11 I am in Karadjordjevo." And it said, "I'm sorry, what did you want?"

12 "Well, nothing." And you say, "Well, there's no problem there." I

13 wanted us to meet because you were in Karadjordjevo. And I said, "There's

14 no problem. We won't have much time afterwards. Momir and I are here."

15 And I mean Momir Bulatovic. I wanted to see whether anything could be

16 done, finally, to have those pilots released. Can that man go there and

17 see them for him to show them to him. And if he does that, then this man

18 -- meaning Perisic; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then we can say that Perisic has seen them if he does manage

21 to see them, and then the chief of the general staff of France can come

22 over for negotiations, and that's all. And you say, "Well, I can come in

23 the space -- can I come within the hour?" And I say, "Yes, not later than

24 that." And you say, "I'll call Perisic." And I say, "Well, say that

25 matters are hotting up and tell him to go to Mladic, to show him whether

Page 23911

1 he has the pilots or not, because this is an ongoing agony. We haven't

2 had confirmation from him whether he actually has the pilots. If he shows

3 them the pilots, then in the course of the day we'll organise a meeting

4 with the French." And then your answer is, "I'll see to that with him

5 straight away." And when you say "him," you mean Perisic; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And if he can tell us that he has the pilots, you say, "So Perisic

8 can be a guarantee, a guarantor that he has the pilots."

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So I am insisting that you, in view of your function and post, can

11 send Perisic there to establish whether they have the pilots or not. And

12 then Perisic can refer back to us and tell us how things stand. Then I go

13 on to say, "If he believes him, he doesn't have to go, but then he can

14 tell us in writing and sign it that the man has the pilots." And then I

15 go on to say that, "This is the last train out, high time that this were

16 done." And you say, "I'll see to it."

17 And then you continue the conversation on the next page, with the

18 individual -- that is to say, you. You say, "I found Perisic. He

19 believes he can get what you're asking for," and so on. And then I say,

20 "He should tell him that if he's going to bring in the pilots, the man

21 will come to take them over. So he should give guarantees that there

22 won't be any problems on that score." And your answer was, "All right,

23 fine. I've told him to write -- to put it down in writing first." And so

24 on.

25 And you say that you can come to Belgrade. And I say, "Well,

Page 23912

1 don't come to Belgrade before you have the letter, so that we can see what

2 the letter says." And then you go on to explain that you're there with

3 your wife, and I say, "My best regards to your wife." And that's all.

4 And now you have on that same page a conversation between you and

5 Perisic, in which you explain the problem to him. His response was, "I

6 can guarantee that to you." And then, "To hell with what happens to me

7 but that our state guarantees for somebody else's risky business." So

8 does that show that Perisic isn't sure he has the pilots?

9 A. Well, at that point in time, I don't think anybody knew where the

10 pilots were on our side. Their side, of course, did know.

11 Q. So not even Perisic knew.

12 And you say to him, "They accept everything Momo asked for and

13 Perisic asked "everything?" And you say, "Everything he asked for. They

14 guarantee everything." And Perisic says, "Yes." And then again you say

15 the following: "Let him write it down. Let him put in writing that they

16 have him. Let him come to talk and negotiate and hand the people over,"

17 and so on. And then you go on to say, "We'll call the French only once he

18 confirms that they have them. Otherwise, there's no point." And then you

19 threaten them and say that "If they fail to comply, they will have to bear

20 the consequences."

21 JUDGE MAY: Why is this being -- what has this been disclosed at

22 this stage in the proceedings? I don't -- I simply don't follow.

23 MR. NICE: Out of an abundance of caution and on the possibility

24 of it being 68 as against this witness, showing his measure of control.

25 And that is all. It's outside the indictment.

Page 23913

1 JUDGE MAY: Why wasn't it disclosed earlier?

2 MR. NICE: Where a decision is changed or where a decision is

3 modulated, one has to act accordingly. But the witness is capable of

4 giving a summary account of all this. And any point that the accused

5 wants to be put can be put summary. And there's one point that I will

6 want to raise in re-examination. That's all. But we also only got it

7 very recently, as a matter of fact, from sources that provided it. But it

8 has very limited value. Nevertheless, we have to be so careful with our

9 68 obligations that if in doubt, we provide.

10 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Milosevic, will you take this as

11 expeditiously as you can.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will be very expeditious with

13 these transcripts. But I have to say that Mr. Nice's explanation

14 absolutely is not convincing, that this can be harmful to the witness,

15 because the role of the witness in this is a highly positive one.

16 JUDGE MAY: He didn't say -- he did not say it would be harmful to

17 the witness. But let's move on.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. To be more expeditious, I will skip over to page 13. "Milosevic,

21 with an unknown person, X," I assume --

22 A. That is me.

23 Q. That's quite obvious. You say, "Mr. President, this is how things

24 stand. I'm chasing this idiot. He was in Sarajevo. From Sarajevo he

25 went to Kalinovik, from Kalinovik to Srbinje. Anyway, he's walking around

Page 23914

1 the hills," et cetera. And then you say, "Perisic is suggesting two

2 things. I don't know why that we go there together to persuade him with

3 regard to the pilots. That is one possibility. And the other is for him

4 to go there alone." And I reply, "Let him go alone, but let him see

5 whether he has the pilots." You've found that place, haven't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So even Perisic can still not guarantee that they have the pilots.

8 Then I say, "Well, who can provide guarantees?" And you say,

9 "Perisic." And I say, "Let him write that down." And then you tell me

10 what he told you, that he can't do that in relation to another state but

11 he can provide us guarantees. And I say, "Well, let them provide us with

12 guarantees. Let him write down for you that he has them and that this one

13 will bring them over. And then we'll bring the chief of staff of France

14 for this to be over tomorrow." "Very well, Mr. President." So that is

15 it, as far as that intercept is concerned.

16 Then he's conditioning things. This is page 14. And you are

17 talking to Perisic, asking, "Is my word and your word and Chirac's word

18 and Slobodan's word, are they enough for him," as obviously he's doubtful.

19 Isn't that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then you make arrangements for going there together, and

22 that's on page 15. I won't dwell on that any further. And just let me

23 draw attention to page 16. Again, a transcript of a conversation between

24 Mr. Milosevic and an unknown person, and that is you, isn't it?

25 A. Yes. Only it keeps says "president of the assembly." There are

Page 23915

1 many errors in this transcript.

2 Q. Yes, there are many errors. But the gist of the conversation is

3 there.

4 And then you say, "Fine. I'll go there if you say so. There's no

5 question about it." And then you say that "He should come with us to have

6 guarantees that what we have proposed is for sure, that he has them over

7 there. He doesn't have them 60, he has two of them." And I'm asking

8 again, "Well, will he bring them?" "No, he wants to talk to them and then

9 he says he'll come to Belgrade." And I say, "Well, let him come to

10 Belgrade, but you see those men first. You make sure you see them." And

11 you say, "So we should see them." And then several lines later, "And

12 convince him to bring them so that they can be near at hand for him to be

13 able to hand them over." And then you say, "He claims 100 per cent that

14 he has them. We've talked three times just now." And I say, "Yes, it is

15 important for him to say whether he has them or not and for Perisic to say

16 that he has them." And then you reply, "He says he has them 100 per cent.

17 We spoke three times, and he says that the only problem is the Tribunal,

18 that he promised him that and then what happens?" My answer is, "Nothing.

19 Tell him we promise him that we will not surrender him." Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Anyway, we didn't surrender anyone to this illegal Tribunal

22 anyway.

23 "And give us the men." The reference is to the pilots. And then

24 you say "let me -- should I give him my word?" I say, "Write it down,

25 that we will not surrender him to the Tribunal if he surrenders the

Page 23916

1 pilots," and you say, "Fine." "And don't let him come here, but let him

2 give you the pilots," et cetera. To save time, I won't go into any

3 details. These are marathon-like conversations between you and Perisic

4 regarding guarantees. Mention is made of Slobodan and Chirac, et cetera,

5 et cetera. I won't dwell on this any longer now.

6 On page 25, or rather, 030 are the last digits, we make

7 arrangements for Perisic to host his French counterpart and remind him

8 once again, I say that, "This man cannot go back without taking those men

9 with him."

10 And then again, on page 31, a conversation between Perisic and

11 Lilic. You say, "I've passed on to Slobodan the main points. I didn't

12 say what the special terms are so as not to cause problems right out.

13 What is important for me, and I think you agree, is that this chief of

14 staff come tomorrow," and the reference is to the chief of staff of the

15 French general staff.

16 And then, after that, you did go to Republika Srpska, together

17 with Perisic. I cautioned you that they shouldn't show you any idiots.

18 And your answer is, "Well, surely they must speak the language of the

19 country they come from so that they don't cheat you." Isn't that right?

20 And all the whole story ended fortunately, had a happy ending. The pilots

21 were released, and we can see from this that no one among the people in

22 Yugoslavia until the very last moment knew whether those men were in their

23 hands, whether they were alive at all, whether they could be handed over,

24 et cetera.

25 In your opinion, was it possible to invest more effort than we did

Page 23917

1 to ensure the success of this operation and for the pilots to be found?

2 A. You know that I was personally involved in this, and at one point

3 you were against my involvement. You said that it would be better for

4 Perisic to go alone. But then we decided that I should go after all. I

5 think that I never had a more difficult task in my life than to save those

6 two pilots, in view of the overall behaviour of the entire main staff, not

7 General Ratko Mladic, who were concealing their whereabouts. And I think

8 that the intelligence administration of the Army of Yugoslavia did

9 everything possible and used all possible channels to find them, and they

10 couldn't, until General Ratko Mladic himself said that he was holding them

11 at Han Pijesak, and even then he didn't want to show them, he just

12 promised to hand them over. I could describe in detail the whole event

13 and the conditions he set and all the things he demanded in return for the

14 pilots. And among other things, that the whole Supreme Council should

15 sign this document. This happened during the night. I know I came to see

16 you at 1.00 a.m.

17 In any event, I think that as far as the Federal Republic of

18 Yugoslavia is concerned, an enormous effort was invested to save those

19 pilots in the first place, to save their lives, and that the chief of

20 staff of the French army - I think his name was Jean Douin - himself

21 caused some problems when talking to Ratko Mladic. He didn't want to talk

22 to a man who was on the list of suspected war criminals. But when all is

23 said and done, I think that it ended happily, and I think that it was a

24 good move prior to the signing of the agreement in Paris.

25 What is also interesting, with regard to those pilots is that I

Page 23918

1 think it was the 11th of December when Radovan Karadzic himself called up

2 and he wanted to get the Russian intelligence service involved in this,

3 and I warned Perisic to take care that they don't spoil the whole

4 arrangement made with Ratko Mladic in that way.

5 The pilots were handed over to General Douin at the bridge at

6 Zvornik safe and sound, and I think they had even been operated on in the

7 hospital in Han Pijesak in Republika Srpska. That would be the story in

8 very brief.

9 So it was thanks primarily to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

10 that this was achieved. I did sign that famous paper on which Ratko

11 Mladic insisted that he shouldn't be surrendered to The Hague Tribunal,

12 referring and relying to our constitution.

13 Q. Absolutely so. And that is not at all at issue. That was our

14 position throughout and continues to be my position today.

15 Now, will you please help me. Will you turn the page, 039. It

16 doesn't relate to you, but it does relate to a phenomenon illustrating the

17 kinds of things that can be found in transcripts of this kind. And what

18 is the purpose of planting such documents. 039.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the audiotape of

20 this conversation to be played so that Mr. Lilic and those listening can

21 see that this allegedly is a conversation between my wife and Rajko

22 Banduk, Mladic's secretary, a low-ranking officer, in which she asks him

23 to explain, and at the very beginning TV France is saying something in

24 three parts. Could --

25 JUDGE MAY: We'll deal with this. First of all, I need to be

Page 23919












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 23920

1 pointed to the position in this transcript. Where in the English is this,

2 please?

3 MR. KAY: It's 11/12/95 is the date on the intercept, so --

4 MR. NICE: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

5 MR. KAY: Yes.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 11th of December, 1995.

7 Mr. May, this is just a drop in the sea of untruths that are being

8 published daily against me and my wife.

9 JUDGE MAY: Don't -- don't make speeches at this stage. Now, what

10 is the point that you want to make with this?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to prove that this is a

12 complete falsehood, because my wife never spoke to some sort of secretary

13 of Mladic, asking him whether the pilots were alive. Just imagine. It

14 says -- she talks to Rajko as if they were on good terms. And said, "I

15 don't want to be an obstacle to President Milosevic. And we spent our

16 whole life together" and she says that she doesn't want to stand in my

17 way." A whole lot of nonsense. I'd like the sound to be played. Because

18 Mr. Lilic knows my wife and her voice, and this absolutely cannot be her.

19 This is not just a drop in the ocean of lies published daily against me

20 but also as evidence that false documents are being produced here,

21 unverified documents. This is not the yellow press; it should be

22 least one step above.

23 JUDGE MAY: If the witness can identify the voice.

24 Mr. Lilic, do you think you can identify the accused's wife's

25 voice?

Page 23921

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I think I could.

2 JUDGE MAY: I don't know if we can get it played.

3 MR. NICE: I'm not even sure we have the actual audiotapes. We

4 have the transcripts. These have not been produced by us. They've been

5 provided to the accused under Rule 68 as material coming into our

6 possession. We know that the witness confirms the accuracy of the

7 transcripts that he's reviewed, but there's no part of our case that the

8 other material is going in.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Well, no doubt you'll see if you could

10 find the tapes, if that's been put in evidence.

11 We haven't got the tape.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Lilic, please look at the transcript itself. Look at the end

14 of the page, please. "I don't wish to be an obstacle to President

15 Milosevic." It's not -- I'm not saying that this is a suspicious

16 conversation. This person is enquiring into the life of the pilots. But

17 this is a fabrication simply that my wife would communicate at all with

18 the secretary of General Mladic.

19 JUDGE MAY: The witness can answer -- you've made your point. The

20 witness can answer as far as he can.

21 Mr. Lilic, do you know anything at all about this? You've heard

22 what the accused is -- is putting. Can you say whether -- can you add

23 anything to it? That's his account. Do you know if Mrs. Markovic was in

24 touch with this man? Can you help either way?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether she was in

Page 23922

1 touch with him, Mr. May. But if I may, I have read through these

2 transcripts. I said of some of them that they certainly correspond to the

3 time and events I was involved in at the time, but I must admit that I was

4 sincerely astonished when I read this text that Mr. Milosevic is referring

5 to and also the method of communication with Warrant Officer Banduk,

6 surprised by any direct link between them and surprised by the contents of

7 this text, because the day before that I was in Bosnia. I was in Han

8 Pijesak on the 10th of December. So my astonishment was extreme when I

9 saw this, and I said that I wasn't sure that this was possible. If it's

10 possible, then it indicates quite different relationships that I was not

11 aware of.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Is anything like this possible at all?

14 A. I'm really not sure, especially this last conversation where

15 you're calling from your daughter's on a private telephone, talking about

16 such things. I don't know. I must be quite frank. This was -- I was

17 astonished by this text.

18 Q. And this woman says, "I'm calling from my daughter's apartment."

19 It's absolute nonsense, this. Isn't that clear, at least?

20 A. The text appears to show that Mrs. Markovic has extremely good

21 relations with Ratko and Tolimir, which was not the case.

22 Q. She didn't even know who Tolimir was, nor the generals that are

23 mentioned there, and you know that very well.

24 But I would like to tape to be played for the witness to be able

25 to hear it, and I would like to hear it too. It's really disgraceful that

Page 23923

1 something like this should be tendered.

2 JUDGE MAY: Have you got any more questions?

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I must repeat: This isn't being tendered

4 as evidence. It's being produced by the accused because material of this

5 kind has to be produced by us to him for him to use. But if he doesn't

6 believe there's any truth in it, then it's a waste of time for him to

7 refer to it, because I'm not going to refer to it.

8 JUDGE MAY: They're not going to rely on this in evidence. Now,

9 let us move on.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. Fine.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And now we come to the last conversation from these transcripts,

13 which I would like you to comment on. The page is 042. It says:

14 "Slobodan Milosevic calling from Karadjordjevo with Ljubica, Zoran Lilic,

15 and General Momcilo Perisic, or rather, the other way round. You were in

16 Karadjordjevo with your wife and Perisic and I'm talking to you and

17 Perisic; right? But it doesn't matter. That's just a technical point.

18 First, a few sentences -- I exchange a few words with your wife.

19 I wish her bon voyage, because you were off to China and so on. And then

20 she sends her regards to my wife and she says, "Here's Zoran for you.

21 Goodbye." Milosevic says, "Hello, Zoki." Lilic says, "Here I am with

22 Momcilo and we're discussing something," and Milosevic says, "That's very

23 good. It would be a good idea for him to contact these friends of his

24 because it would be an important thing" - and bear in mind that this is

25 the 16th of December, 1995 - "it would be important for them to assume a

Page 23924

1 positive position at the assembly, not with respect to the plan. They

2 have to accept the plan. That is not the problem. And they have accepted

3 it. They have accepted it. But they must realise that the most important

4 thing now is to have good relations with IFOR, to have good relations with

5 these peace forces." Isn't that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So the agreement was accepted. We discussed it in the previous

8 conversation when we were discussing Dayton. And then I go on to say the

9 following: "The only question is: Are they going to confirm the thing

10 that they are allies with the Americans or are they going to leave that to

11 the Muslims? We have traditional relationships of alliance with the

12 Americans," and so on and so forth.

13 And then I say, "bon voyage," and then I ask to speak to Perisic,

14 who spoke to me in your presence. And then I say the same thing to him,

15 "It would be a good idea if you were to hear -- contact those people of

16 yours across the Drina." And he says, "Yes." "With respect to the

17 assembly." There's just one question, as the plan is no longer contested.

18 There's just one outstanding question that is important for them. Are

19 they going to show from the very beginning that we are in an alliance with

20 the Americans, or is that alliance going to be left to the Muslims?" And

21 Perisic says, "Yes, I understand." We always had traditional allied

22 relationships with them. The Muslims were always at war with them. So

23 now is the best time to assert the traditional alliance and not leave it

24 to the Muslims. And I think that somebody should represent -- should do

25 something along those lines and to represent their army before the

Page 23925

1 assembly and speak. So you suggest that to them, please. You put it to

2 them, please."

3 And then I say again, "What I told you, that Clinton told me in

4 Paris that those Mujahedins would slit his throat first and then the

5 throats of all the Americans." And then I sad, "So the Serb side is

6 expected to behave towards them as towards friends and allies, and they

7 must be able to demonstrate that from day one. That is the basic point.

8 Everything else has been solved. I just don't want them to be led astray

9 by that man over there with all his nonsenses. That's the only important

10 thing."

11 And then I state again, "Let's see how things will evolve today,

12 because there might be individuals over there. And I ask you that your

13 service take this into account. I say this to Perisic, and see how people

14 are acting, because anybody working against --" and we mean the mission

15 and the implementation of the Dayton Accords -- "anybody working against

16 that," I say, "against the interests of the people and peace, we're going

17 to arrest them all. So do that, please, so we know who is on whose side.

18 See to it." And then I repeat at the end, I say to him, "It's important

19 that the army at the assembly should state this. We were always

20 traditional allies. America is there and we want those relations to be

21 placed in the best possible status urgently. So relations and cooperation

22 are the number-one priority."

23 Do you remember that conversation?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you also remember that we endeavoured at all events that

Page 23926

1 after the Dayton Agreements were signed, that we were to -- we wielded all

2 our influence to prevent a single incident from breaking out. And in

3 actual fact, no incidents did come to pass.

4 Now, I'd like to go on to the next tab -- or rather, not tab but

5 binder.

6 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal first of all with these tapes. Do you want

7 them exhibited, Mr. Milosevic?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I do, Mr. May, because

9 they indicate quite clearly not only goodwill and maximum efforts on our

10 part but that good faith should be -- should prevail in all these

11 undertakings.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay, first of all, thank you for the loan. I

13 think I'll return it.

14 Is there any reason why we shouldn't exhibit them? It would seem

15 sensible to do it.

16 MR. KAY: No.

17 JUDGE MAY: The Defence rely on it. It shows -- it shows

18 criticism of the RS leadership, that they weren't working together.

19 MR. KAY: It's crucial to the accused's case, and it's plainly

20 material that has been introduced through this witness that he's correctly

21 identified in the terms that the accused has put to him, and thereby

22 adopted the material. And plainly it would be admissible. This witness

23 was very much involved with those events that we're dealing with and was

24 able to speak of the accuracy of the content.

25 JUDGE MAY: We'll get an exhibit number for them, and then I want

Page 23927

1 to raise something about the binder.

2 MR. KAY: They're transcripts, of course, at this stage.

3 JUDGE MAY: The transcripts of tapes, not the tapes.

4 MR. KAY: Yes, rather than tapes. We have to wait the originals,

5 if they are available.


7 JUDGE MAY: They will be exhibited, and no doubt copies can be

8 made available for the Bench.

9 The next matter I want to raise is the status of this binder,

10 which I do not understand why this is arriving now.

11 MR. NICE: Well, it was a mistake. I wasn't intended to be

12 provided now. It's a sort of bit of good fortune for the accused. That

13 is the exhibits that I would have taken Lilic to -- Mr. Lilic to in

14 re-examination in certain circumstances, almost certainly. It also

15 includes the stenographic notes of the meeting of the Council for

16 Coordination, and those have got to be dealt with because those are left

17 over from last time.

18 JUDGE MAY: They -- is that right, that they had not been provided

19 at the time?

20 MR. NICE: Let me remind you of the history: Shortly before the

21 last hearing, there was a concluded 54 bis application with some

22 decisions. These minutes were not the subject of an order, and to our

23 surprise and pleasure they were provided voluntarily on, I think, the

24 morning of the first day that Mr. Lilic gave evidence, is my recollection,

25 something like that.

Page 23928

1 We heard about it, and we were able to produce them because they

2 were flown up specially on the day that he last gave evidence on the last

3 occasion. And I had announced that it might be thought convenient simply

4 for him to identify them so that they could be then processed as an

5 identified exhibit. In the event, we ran out of time and the Court

6 thought it better to put back their identification until a later stage.

7 And so that is an independent exercise that needs to be done at some stage

8 today, and that relates to the largest physical part of this binder.

9 Those documents have yet to be translated in full, and I have

10 simply two extracts from them translated that I want to raise with the

11 witness at some stage, one that he's already dealt with in evidence from

12 memory.

13 So that accounts for a number of these exhibits, and the number

14 that it relates to is in this particular bundle, it's numbers 39 and 40,

15 41, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.

16 JUDGE MAY: What it -- the remaining documents, have they been

17 exhibited to date, or are you seeking now to put them in?

18 MR. NICE: No. They're documents that I would be coming to in

19 re-examination. Some of them are new documents that have simply arrived

20 since Mr. Lilic gave evidence, a couple of them, and the others are

21 documents that, in light of the answers he gives, I wish to put to him

22 along with one or two other exhibits already produced. Obviously,

23 typically he would not have seen these in advance of the conclusion of his

24 cross-examination and nor would the accused, so that they come to the

25 accused in a sense by way of the accused's good fortune. But the

Page 23929

1 appropriate course would be for him to conclude his cross-examination in

2 lines with his earlier plan, and for the matter to unfold in the usual

3 way.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Except that would mean he wouldn't be able to

5 cross-examine about the new documents you're putting in. So I think it's

6 better today --

7 MR. NICE: Yes. I can identify those to him in any event, because

8 they weren't available to him before. Let me just find their numbers.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll allow the cross-examination to

10 continue.

11 Mr. Kay.

12 MR. KAY: Yes. New -- I'm very concerned about new material

13 coming in in re-examination, because it makes it very difficult for the

14 accused to respond in any effective form to it. And it may have -- the

15 evidence itself may have a completely different perspective from his

16 position. We've seen that in a number of cases with documents.

17 MR. NICE: 37 and 38 are the documents that are -- are simply not

18 available before, but I think - and I'll check this - I think that's the

19 only two that are other than previously available.

20 MR. MAY: I think it's right that the accused should have the

21 opportunity to cross-examine on the entire binder.

22 MR. KAY: Yes.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I see you -- your headsets

Page 23930

1 weren't on. I demand for reasons of principle that the tape of the

2 alleged conversation between my wife and that warrant officer, where she's

3 asking whether the pilots are alive, should be placed for expert analysis

4 to see whether the voice is hers. You have examples of her voice in

5 interviews and in other things. Because I don't think forgeries of this

6 kind ought to be allowed by the other side.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we don't have the tape. I've made it

8 plain twice.

9 JUDGE MAY: Let me deal with it in this way and explain the

10 position: The tape is not available. The Prosecution do not have it. We

11 will see if it can be obtained.

12 But you should also understand this, that the Prosecution are not

13 putting this forward as part of their case. It's merely part -- documents

14 that they've disclosed to you. Somebody has passed it to them and they've

15 passed it on to you. They're not going to rely on it.

16 Now, if it becomes relevant, we will try and pursue the matter.

17 But for the moment, it is not evidence at all in the case. So whatever

18 its background, it doesn't really matter.

19 Now, let's -- let's move on, because time is -- is limited.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm not speaking about the

21 context. The context is positive. She's interested about the lives of

22 the pilots and she speaks about the French interest. But I'm speaking

23 about maliciousness and that a contact of some kind is indicated. And it

24 is relevant because it's just a drop in the ocean of lies that are being

25 put out every day precisely against my wife, myself, and my family. So it

Page 23931

1 is relevant.

2 JUDGE MAY: The relevance here is what is evidence in this

3 particular case, and that is what we're concerned with. Now, let's move

4 on. You can ask questions now about this binder.

5 Does the witness have the binder? He has it.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I do hope that you have the

7 file too and that you can see that it numbers several hundred pages and

8 was disclosed to me last night -- or rather, yesterday, once you had left

9 the courtroom.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Lilic, first of all, let's just take a look at this. They are

12 stenographic notes from the extended meeting of the Council for

13 dovetailing positions of state policy. It was formed and presided over by

14 the then-president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Dobrica Cosic.

15 That's right, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. He was a highly respected personage, the greatest living Serb

18 writer. He is the senior of us all. He is the eldest. And his desire

19 was to collect together the representatives of Serbia, Montenegro,

20 Krajina, Republika Srpska, to hold consultations about political issues;

21 isn't that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So to the best of all intentions, to set a unified political

24 approach to questions and issues having to do with Serb national

25 interests; is that right?

Page 23932

1 A. Yes, that can be clearly seen from the stenographic notes

2 themselves.

3 Q. So is it then clear that the intention was a constructive one on

4 the part of Mr. Cosic and in all respects a good one? And judging by what

5 we're going to go through now, it is obvious that it is oriented towards

6 peace; is that right?

7 A. Well, this council was never a secret. It was -- it made public

8 for the information media individual positions taken by it, of course,

9 once they had been decided, and it was -- the decision to set it up in the

10 first place was made public too. It was public knowledge.

11 Q. Yes. I'm just speaking of this good intention and the efforts

12 made of the then-president of the FRY to gather together the leadership

13 and in the function of peaceful solutions and the best possible solutions

14 to hold consultations of this kind. Isn't that right?

15 Now, in these stenographic notes, we have several interventions on

16 my part recorded, and I notice that Mr. Nice has highlighted just one, one

17 of those several interventions. However, the comprehensive nature of the

18 efforts made at that meeting would be distorted were we not to take a look

19 at at least some of the many interventions made at the meeting.

20 And now please turn to page 39. I don't want to give you the ERN

21 number because the stenographic notes are paginated, so it is on page 39.

22 JUDGE MAY: Which tab? Which tab is it?

23 MR. NICE: Probably 40, because he's starting there. There are no

24 translations of these. They are not ready yet.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. It is tab 39. It is the

Page 23933

1 meeting of the 21st of January, 1993.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I assist you? It was the 9th of

3 January, 1993.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. I have it as being the 21st of January, 1993. They're the

6 stenographic notes from the expanded session, 21st of January, 1993, and

7 the number is 02944123.

8 A. Yes. I have 3994 as the last digits on my page.

9 Q. Then it's another number and another document. I don't have the

10 9th of January document, I fear.

11 JUDGE MAY: Have you got -- Mr. Lilic, it's tab 39. Perhaps if

12 someone would just assist the witness with the tab numbers.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, it is

16 tab 40 is the one of the 9th of January, according to my binder. So maybe

17 under tab 40 Mr. Lilic has what is tab 39 in the other binder. So we're

18 talking about these two tabs, 39 and 40.

19 MR. NICE: No.

20 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness look at tab 39. Look at 39.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found it, the 21st of January.

22 Thank you.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Have you found it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23934

1 Q. Please, before we consider this page or these pages that I should

2 like to comment on briefly and quote from, I have noticed - and maybe you

3 have the same document - that out of the whole minutes, only one insert

4 has been chosen in English, and it comes before the Serbian stenographic

5 notes. And this abstract is a quotation of Zivota Panic, General Zivota

6 Panic. I assume that Mr. Nice did this to ask you about that, so I will

7 take the opportunity to put a question to you about it because afterwards

8 they won't let me have the floor.

9 What has been translated into English is to be found in the

10 Serbian language on page 34 of the original stenographic notes.

11 Have you found it, I assume?

12 A. Yes, I have.

13 Q. I will not analyse the entire text. It begins with Dobrica Cosic

14 asking, "Who wants the floor? I give the floor to General Panic." Then

15 it says, "Zivota Panic," and he speaks. And then on page 34, in the

16 central large paragraph, he explains that the situation is very bad. He

17 addresses himself to Cosic, saying, "What is happening on the left bank of

18 the Drina around Srebrenica, Bajina Basta, Bratunac, is so bad, and you,

19 Mr. President, should know that it's a disgrace for the Serbian people.

20 They're fleeing. They're abandoning everything. The aid we are giving

21 them in weapons, ammunition is in certain houses in the village. We were

22 not able to pull it out. We are preparing to destroy it. That is what

23 was left behind by the JNA."

24 And it is the following that I wish to ask you to comment on,

25 because he says, "In personnel, the army -- in terms of personnel, the

Page 23935

1 army should not go to alien territory but volunteers should be found, some

2 men who will save that part of the territory," and so on.

3 So my question is: Is it clear that since the founding of the

4 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and after the withdrawal of the JNA and the

5 formation of the Army of Yugoslavia, there were no units of the Army of

6 Yugoslavia that could be sent to the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

7 Because he himself says, "We cannot send personnel to foreign territory."

8 So the question is: Is it true that whether we're talking of the Republic

9 of Serbia or the Republic of Montenegro, either, that only volunteers went

10 to Bosnia and Krajina?

11 A. I spoke at some length about this during the previous hearing, and

12 I even underlined that after 1992 not a single armed unit of the Army of

13 Yugoslavia was located in the territory of the Republic of Srpska upon

14 orders of the Supreme Defence Council. And this also applies to the

15 period when Mr. Cosic was president. Not then and not throughout your

16 term of four years. And your term of office ended on the 25th of June,

17 1997.

18 Q. So that is two years after the Dayton Agreement and the cessation

19 of the war; is that right? So you're able to testify about the entire

20 period.

21 Now, please look at page 39. Is this, too, the principled

22 position that I advocated within our leadership in the republic and which

23 I hope you are very familiar with? I'm asking for the floor. This is on

24 page 39. And I say, "I suggest that we try to see in concrete terms what

25 awaits us in Geneva." We are discussing the conference in Geneva. And I

Page 23936

1 say that "Momir and Sveta are right." And I'm referring to Momir

2 Bulatovic and Sveta Stojanovic. That is also my opinion. "Our position

3 is that of a principled participant who is advocating a peaceful

4 settlement to the crisis, and we have done our utmost for a principled

5 platform to be defined." Isn't that right? Isn't that our position

6 throughout, Mr. Lilic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then I say, I quote: "Our attitude, that is, that of the

9 delegation of Yugoslavia, is quite different with regards to maps,

10 military agreements, and other specific questions, which on the basis of

11 the principles that we have advocated truly belong to issues that the

12 three parties should negotiate." I mean the Muslim, the Serbian, and

13 Croat, within Bosnia-Herzegovina itself. I quote again: "Our position

14 should be one of principle, in favour of peace and a consensus among the

15 three parties for an equitable protection, an even-handed protection of

16 the interests of all three nations." Is that what it says, Mr. Lilic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you familiar with my position which I underlined frequently

19 and emphasised that peace in Bosnia would be achieved once the interests

20 of all three nations are treated even-handedly? Wasn't that my position

21 from the very outset?

22 A. Yes, that is true. And that was repeated umpteen times, not your

23 thesis, but your principled position.

24 Before you continue with your questions, Mr. May, if I may, I

25 would like to inform you and the Trial Chamber with the following: I did

Page 23937

1 see four out of seven of these stenographic notes in 1993 to inform myself

2 with them to the extent that this was necessary in view of the position I

3 took as president of FRY. I was not a participant in all these meetings

4 that were held. I can only analyse them from the position of my knowledge

5 and familiarity with the political situation but not as a participant. So

6 please appreciate that position, if I'm not very precise about it.

7 JUDGE MAY: We'll -- we'll bear that in mind.

8 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Yes. But surely you consider yourself quite qualified to assess

11 the political nature and content of certain quotations.

12 A. Yes. That's what I just said.

13 Q. So that was the policy that I advocated, wasn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, look at the next paragraph: "Therefore, we support all the

16 three parties, and that they should sit round the table and agree on

17 specific matters, maps, other military, and other matters. That is the

18 principled position of our delegation, which means that we support all

19 three parties and their mutual agreement. Whatever that may be, we will

20 support it." Isn't that right?

21 And then I go on to say that "We should not interfere into what

22 the three parties should negotiate." On the next page, second paragraph,

23 I say, "I spoke to Vance today and he asked me directly 'what do you think

24 the approach to maps should be?' I told him quite frankly that the maps

25 should be approach with a great deal of patience and as a highly delicate

Page 23938

1 matter and that maps were factual matters." And then I mentioned the 1991

2 census. I say that "We have the 1981 map, and the principle should be

3 that territory taken by force should not be accepted and existing maps

4 indicate what belongs to whom regarding the borders of the provinces."

5 This is all part of the Vance-Owen Plan, when they organised and drew up

6 provinces that were to be set up in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you have the censuses. You have everything. We shouldn't -- I

9 don't say that we do not accept but that territory taken by force should

10 not be recognised and that things should be solved in a principled manner.

11 Then I go to point out -- and this is on page 42. I will skip

12 over things. I say in the third paragraph, fourth line from the top,

13 Since there is reference there to the entire Geneva package, including

14 military matters, I say, "I am not a military expert and I don't see -- I

15 don't know what is very important and what is not. We have a principled

16 position, and that is there can be no one-sided disarming. That

17 principled position is something we can defend with a clear conscience."

18 And then I repeat again: "We must respect the principle that

19 territory taken by force cannot be acknowledged, but this applies far more

20 to the Croats than to the Serbs," et cetera. And then I say, "If a

21 military agreement is agreed upon, we've taken an enormous step forward

22 for the shootings to stop and for these things to be done by political

23 means." And then there's a comment as to who is for peace and who is for

24 war. So is it quite clear what, as a matter of principle, Serbia, and I

25 personally as the president of Serbia, were advocating at that Council for

Page 23939

1 Coordination of Positions that was being held with the highest

2 representatives listed present?

3 Will you now look at page 47, please. When I intervene, after it

4 is said that it is contradictory for problems to be solved quickly, I say,

5 "It is in contradiction with the situation. It is normal and logical for

6 them to push the military document in the interest of a cessation of the

7 conflict." So I am saying that it is -- that we should accept as normal

8 their insistence of the military document because it is in the interest of

9 the cessation of hostilities, as soon as possible. And then I cannot

10 remember - and will you please remind me --

11 MR. NICE: Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

13 MR. NICE: We don't seem to be getting to a question. And can I

14 raise now, just before we break, the general approach the Chamber, and we,

15 and the accused, and the amici may be obliged to take in relation to

16 records of this type. I've referred to it before, and I think the use of

17 this type of record has got to be seen in the history of the production of

18 the records to us and the problems that that has created. But

19 immediately, there doesn't seem to be a question. It just seems to be --

20 JUDGE MAY: I'm allowing him to read. If he wants to read into

21 the record, he can. He's entitled to rely on this.

22 Yes. Go on.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. May. You have

24 surprised me pleasantly.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 23940












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 23941

1 Q. Mr. Lilic, Vladimir Vojvodic should be a general; isn't that

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Because I know Vladimir Vojvodic who was the head of the military

5 medical academy. I can't remember this one. Was -- what was he?

6 A. I think that is the one, actually. I'm not sure.

7 Q. You mean the doctor? Oh, it could be.

8 A. Because I think he was in Mr. Cosic's team.

9 Q. Oh, yes. Quite. Perhaps.

10 Now, let's see. He explains on page 51: "Vladimir, Vojvodic, he

11 says, that must be done, because that is a precondition. That is what it

12 says, an agreement on peace. That is the heading." And then Ilija Djukic

13 takes the floor. Ilija Djukic at the time was the Minister for Foreign

14 Affairs?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. "Vlado, but they intimated they would seek a complete cease-fire

17 at midnight Saturday." Vladimir Vojvodic says, "That is something new."

18 Then Slobodan Milosevic, "That should be accepted immediately. It's

19 something that we should even propose, Saturday, midnight, a complete

20 cessation of fire, and we should abide by it and respect it." Is that

21 what it says?

22 A. Yes, that is what it says.

23 Q. Then Karadzic: "No, it's better for them to propose because if we

24 make the proposal then they call into question the second part of the

25 plan. It's better to put it forward at private meetings and with

Page 23942

1 friends." And I say, "Yes, but we should accept straight away a complete

2 cessation of hostilities on Saturday midnight."

3 Is it possible to insist in more categorical terms than this,

4 "accept immediately what they are suggesting, midnight Saturday? They

5 said something new and I react by saying, "It should be accepted

6 immediately. It should even be our proposal, a complete cessation of fire

7 on Saturday midnight and we should respect it."

8 A. Yes, that is what it says.

9 Q. Let me try and finish this. Again on page 54, Slobodan Milosevic:

10 "As there's a great deal of discussion about this, the Assembly of

11 Republika Srpska at Pale has taken a favourable position, and I say,

12 "Let's be specific. Last time a paper of 9 points was put on the table.

13 I believe that that piece of paper with nine points will be verified."

14 And then the next sentence is, "The reply of the Serbian side is yes,

15 because the decision of the assembly is yes." Before that, there are

16 comments about it, but I'm saying that the answer is yes. "It will be a

17 trick that I believe will be resorted to, and that is the question will be

18 asked whether the Serb side has any reservations in that connection," et

19 cetera, "in order to detract from the value of the positive outcome of the

20 Assembly meeting at Pale, because some parties will insist on that, not

21 Vance and Owen, but they will intervene with them to that effect. The

22 answer should be no tricks and no reservations. This nine-point document

23 has been accepted. Therefore, we have opened the way to discussions on

24 other matters; maps, a military agreement, et cetera, so we shouldn't fall

25 into the trap of admitting that there were any kind of reserves there,

Page 23943

1 that we are saying, 'Yes, but.' It is not 'Yes, but.' It is not 'Yes,

2 but.' It is 'Yes.' In response to the paper, the document put on the

3 table in Geneva at our plenary meeting that we held on Tuesday. And if

4 they'd note that in plenary --"

5 JUDGE MAY: We must bring this to a close now. It's time for an

6 adjournment.

7 Mr. Nice, you wanted to say something.

8 MR. NICE: Yes. I wanted to explain what I was going to propose

9 as a way of dealing with this type of record.

10 Self-evidently we've always wanted this material to be available

11 to the Court, because if it's the precise words of the accused, then it's

12 really the best evidence of what he was thinking and saying at the time.

13 That is why we've pursued these documents since we first learnt of their

14 existence from this witness. We've managed to produce for you the

15 Dobanovci documents, which were tab 20 of the Lilic exhibit, and we're

16 still hoping to get for you the rather larger volume of material from the

17 Supreme Defence Council minutes, at which this witness indeed was a

18 chairman and participant. We know there's a -- perhaps a short delay, but

19 they aren't yet with us, and the Chamber will also recall that the witness

20 was not inclined to deal with even the meetings at which he'd been a

21 participant without having a full record before him. But if we get all

22 those documents before you in due course, then there will be a long record

23 of what the accused said in meetings of this kind.

24 Now, it seemed to me that with that quantity of material coming

25 late, through no fault of ours, because we've been trying to get hold of

Page 23944

1 it one way or another for nearly two years, the better course would

2 probably be for all of us to read the material once it's in translation

3 outside court, if that is a possibility, thus to restrict

4 cross-examination on the material to what -- to that which can be

5 conveniently accommodated within the limited time available to us.

6 Because otherwise -- and I'm not, of course, standing in the way of the

7 material going in; to the contrary, I want it all to go in. And I of

8 course know in general terms what this amounts to, although it isn't

9 available in cross-examination. To allow it to be read in, if it becomes

10 the practice, will be enormously time consuming.

11 So I made some reference to this on the last occasion when I

12 expressed the hope the documents would in due course, as it were, speak

13 for themselves or be capable of being read rather than being read into the

14 record. And that is something I would urge the Chamber to consider

15 because of the real problems of time. Fundamentally, I stick by the

16 position that if this is - I have no reason to doubt it - the precise

17 words of the accused in various meetings, it's obviously valuable

18 material. The question is simply how to handle it.

19 JUDGE MAY: The question is the fair way in which the deal with

20 it.

21 How long is this witness here for?

22 MR. NICE: Well, he's only here for today. I don't know about his

23 availability for tomorrow. But, Your Honour, I mean, thinking, as it

24 were, ahead or back, had we had the material earlier, we might have been

25 able to schedule it and present it through a witness or an expert. But it

Page 23945

1 simply hasn't -- hasn't arrived until now. That's the problem.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider the position and we'll consider the

4 time which should be available.

5 MR. NICE: But I realise you've already ruled against me on this,

6 but it would be my submission that for a witness who has said he's not

7 even prepared to deal with the meetings where he was a participant, say,

8 with a record, there must be a limited value to the answers he can give on

9 meetings at which he wasn't present.

10 The Chamber will recall that he, apart from the one extract we've

11 looked at in part, which was translated, he -- he was struck by one other

12 entry, which we can see at the beginning of tab 40. He gave an account of

13 that. And this is the -- as it were, the full and corrected version of

14 that. And those are the only two excerpts I'd be relying on.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

16 We'll adjourn. Twenty minutes.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

19 JUDGE MAY: We have to balance the various interests in this case

20 in deciding how to progress from here. We have in mind what the

21 Prosecution said about time, of course. At the same time, the accused

22 must be entitled, faced with this vast volume of documents, to make use of

23 them and to cross-examine upon them, on matters he considers relevant.

24 But we also have to take account the interests of the witness who has

25 returned to give evidence, here to assist the Court, who now also finds

Page 23946

1 himself confronted with a battery of documents, his having agreed to come

2 back for an hour and a half. As against that, we have the general

3 interests of justice.

4 We've come to this conclusion: Having regard to the matter which

5 the accused has to deal with today and having regard to the fact that the

6 amici, I think, asked for half an hour and the Prosecution half an hour,

7 we shall give them the last session to share between them. This next

8 session we will allow for cross-examination, which means the accused will

9 have had over two and a half hours this morning, which we deem to be

10 sufficient.

11 So, Mr. Milosevic, you've got the next session, if you want it, if

12 you require it, to cross-examine the witness.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So a shortened session, Mr. May.

14 But nonetheless, I'll do my best to get through my main points.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And not to lose time, let me start, Mr. Lilic. Would you please

17 open tab 4 -- no, 40, I'm sorry, tab 40, which is also -- which is also

18 the stenographic notes from an extended session for the council on the

19 dovetailing of positions on state policy, dated the 9th of January, 1993,

20 the Council for Coordination. And as you've taken a look at both these

21 stenographic notes, they actually make up a whole, don't they?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, with the first stenographic notes, Mr. Nice highlighted a

24 portion and had it translated in English, the one we discussed with Zivota

25 Panic and his statement. And we explained that nobody from the army could

Page 23947

1 go across the Drina River.

2 Now, with these second lot of minutes, which is -- makes up a

3 whole with the first part, he highlighted another portion, that is to say,

4 a short intervention by me, and had it translated into English, but we'll

5 come to that later on, when the time comes, according to the order of

6 things. There were quite a number of interventions from my part, on my

7 part, and this one instance in the context of all the others is a very

8 good one too.

9 Now, take a look, please, at the stenographic notes. I'll try and

10 get through them as quickly as possible. But look at page 34, please.

11 Page 34, the penultimate paragraph. And I'm going to start off by reading

12 out the third sentence. We're all speaking round the table, and I assume

13 we all share each other's opinions, and then I go on to quote what I said

14 at the time. "It is our strategic goal that the Serb people in the

15 Balkans should be free and equal. Freedom and equality for the Serb

16 people in the Balkans implies each and every possibility for it to assert

17 fully and realise its interests."

18 And then I go on to conclude at the end of that paragraph, "For me

19 it is less important through harmony, institutional solutions, and stages

20 that goal is to be reached, and what is much more important for me is how

21 many people are going to die for those goals and whether anybody ought to

22 lay down their lives at all for any of those goals." So was that always

23 our position? We are not seeking anything more than equality. We want to

24 be equal and free. Isn't that right, Mr. Lilic?

25 A. Yes. Many of us took the same position that you put forward here,

Page 23948

1 and those were our positions of principle and publicly declared positions.

2 So that's not just something that happened at this meeting.

3 Q. And I'm sure you'll remember when the declaration of the Federal

4 Republic of Yugoslavia was established and when the constitution was

5 enacted the declaration was registered in the United Nations as an

6 official document of our country, by the way, and it stated that "The

7 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia has no territorial pretensions vis-a-vis

8 the former Yugoslav republics." Do you remember that?

9 A. Yes. That was the document when the new constitution was enacted.

10 Q. And I'm sure you'll also remember that I stated publicly at the

11 assembly in Pale, I stressed the goal, the objective which was freedom and

12 equality and not -- nothing more than that, and of course nothing less

13 than that.

14 And then, take a look at page 35, the next page. I say that

15 "Nobody should lose their lives, regardless of the institutional phases

16 and stages necessary for the negotiations, that one should be persistent

17 in negotiating." And then I go on to conclude, at the top of the page,

18 that "Even one single head less for the realisation of goals, which means

19 if even one man is killed, that is always more than a phase, inter-phase,

20 step, inter-step, in an institutional solution on negotiations being

21 conducted." So what I am saying is that we must insist on negotiations

22 and a peaceful solution regardless of how long those negotiations will

23 last and how many negotiations we have to go through. Was that our

24 position and policy, the policy we pursued?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23949

1 Q. Now take a look at page 36, please, where I state the following:

2 I mention the talks with Cyrus Vance and the formula, in inverted commas,

3 because this is taken over from a document prepared by them, "Three

4 constituent nations, peoples." And then we say that "That formula must be

5 asserted in the ten principles, three constituent nations, peoples." And

6 I say - and then he said - "All right. Very well. Let's do it this way.

7 Let's have the first principle read that Bosnia-Herzegovina is a

8 decentralised state composed of three constituent peoples and organised

9 into provinces with a high degree of the exercise of power and authority."

10 So that is what the international mediators agreed to. That was our goal,

11 and that was a function of the fact that the Serb people should be free

12 and equal, never to the detriment of the other two peoples. Was that

13 always our policy?

14 A. Yes. And in this case, I think it was -- it referred to a

15 preparation of that future, the future constitution should the Vance-Owen

16 Plan be realised. So this term "constituent peoples" is a very important

17 one, "three constituent peoples."

18 Q. At the end of page 36 there, the last sentence, "If you go with

19 the principle of three constituent peoples and their equality, then I

20 assume those three peoples must arrive at the definition of their

21 constitution." So we strove to have these three constituent peoples

22 define their constitution together themselves.

23 And then, I'm sure you'll remember, this was another topic of our

24 discussions. I think that after Dayton you signed this with the

25 representatives of Republika Srpska, that is to say, the agreement,

Page 23950

1 special relations or --

2 A. Yes, special relations.

3 Q. This was a topical issue. So I say -- another question that I

4 broached was the decisive exclusion of coming into relationship with

5 others, which Vance took in fairly well and said that that question wasn't

6 to be raised, to enter into a relationship with others, that that could be

7 relativised and improved.

8 So is it clear that we accept -- we were ready to accept any

9 solution for Bosnia-Herzegovina which showed a respect for the equality of

10 the constituent nations and it implied that Bosnia-Herzegovina was a

11 single state?

12 A. Yes. But the three sides were to reach an agreement.

13 Q. Yes. And that with full conscience is the only proper course and

14 principle to take. I hope you'll agree with that.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now take a look at page 50, because this also relates to

17 this -- these relationships. Once again, "Slobodan Milosevic: Regional

18 institutions are not excluded at all and I broached the question with

19 Vance." And then I go on to say, "With Serbia, for example. Within the

20 of the former Yugoslavia we had relations with the Northern Rhine area,

21 for example, that is the Westfalia German province of the North Rhine or

22 with an Italian province, for example." As there, we had the Heilongjiang

23 province of China as this relationship and with Russia within the Soviet

24 Union, so there was no restriction for relations of that kind. "Tomorrow,

25 for example, the province of Banja Luka" - which were the provinces as

Page 23951

1 they were drawn up by Vance and Owen in their plans - "will have

2 relationships with the province of Vojvodina, economic and cultural ones,

3 others. They would sign protocols, exchange various matters and so on.

4 Is that what it says?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So we're focussing on cooperation along those lines.

7 And then I go on to say that "All this can be incorporated into

8 the writing of the constitution." Therefore, it is not something that is

9 being challenged. We're talking about the set-up for Bosnia-Herzegovina,

10 that there are no pretensions on that score.

11 I should just like us to take a look at Cosic's intervention. He

12 took the floor and came out in favour strongly of continuing the

13 negotiations and that all that should be done is negotiate, on no account

14 to go to war. And Cosic says, "What we must not do" - on page 55, at the

15 bottom - "is to interrupt our negotiations. I'm afraid, Radovan" - and

16 he's addressing Karadzic - "that as the two of us took part in the

17 negotiations in Geneva that with regard to your proposal, which I agree

18 to, we're excluding ourselves from the Geneva negotiations. This should

19 not happen for the reasons well known to us." And then in the next

20 paragraph he goes to on say, "Therefore, I strive and propose that we hold

21 negotiations at all costs. Negotiations must be held at all cost, which

22 means basically to accept the proposals tabled by them and then to fight

23 for its modification -- their modification." Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So Cosic's position is quite clear, and his efforts to negotiate,

Page 23952

1 that we must negotiate and negotiate until a solution is ultimately found.

2 Now we come to page 69, and that is the portion that Mr. Nice

3 provided for us in English and extracted from the context of the rest.

4 And I say -- it says "Slobodan Milosevic." "Please, I have to interrupt

5 you. Paspalj said" -- I have to stop you. You've got this, Mr. May, in

6 English. It is the only excerpt from the two minutes, and everything I

7 said in my aspirations for peace.

8 "Paspalj said that we had to have the unity of the Serbian people

9 and de facto we do, because objectively speaking, on all levels,

10 political, military, economic, culture, educational, we have that unity.

11 The problem now is how we could get recognition of this unity, that is,

12 how we could legalise this unity, how we can transform the situation which

13 de facto exists and which could de facto not be threatened, how could we

14 transform it into both de facto and de jure. Therefore, this past, de

15 jure, to get to that, is like --" and then this in inverted commas -- "a

16 small labyrinth." So is that clear that we're referring to negotiations

17 there, Mr. Lilic?

18 A. Yes. This whole portion relates to negotiations.

19 Q. Yes, re: negotiations. "But, we will never allow a change in

20 this de facto situation, and we will achieve things through the

21 'labyrinth', if not in half a year, then in a year; if not in a year,

22 then in two. What will we gain? We will gain a decrease in the deaths

23 and therefore preserve our people. Everything must be sacrificed for the

24 people, except the people."

25 Therefore, within the context of everything I said when I took the

Page 23953

1 floor, is this yet another example that negotiations should be continued

2 and that the situation should be solved through negotiations? And then

3 Dobrica Cosic goes on to say that he is in complete agreement, and we

4 continue.

5 And then I go on to say - and these are the most important things

6 for me - the last two words or page 69, that is where this is. "If it

7 says in the first principle constituent people, nation, then we have

8 finished our job." A constituent nation. So that is what we wish to

9 assert and nothing more than that. Isn't that right, Mr. Lilic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'll do my best to abridge this next portion. Once again, on page

12 79, there's a brief intervention on my part, once again with regard to the

13 papers. I say, "They complicate matters too much." And I say, "All they

14 have to do is to change it and put in 'constituent nation' and lighten

15 some of the other things and then that is a good basis for you to sit down

16 and prepare the constitution, the long-term preparations for the

17 constitution." And that is what I had to say that time.

18 On page 82, we go back to cooperation between the provinces, and I

19 asked whether the Banja Luka province can have relationships with

20 Vojvodina. Of course it is logical that it can, logical and normal. And

21 that is the response to the question raised by the Prime Minister of the

22 day, Kontic. Is that right, Mr. Lilic?

23 A. Yes, that is what it says here in the stenographic notes.

24 Q. Now, somebody interjects. I don't remember who Zdravko Zecevic

25 was. He says, "What borders? Borders can only be established through

Page 23954

1 war." Slobodan Milosevic: "No. These borders, with slight adjustments,

2 will be excellent borders. How many -- how much of the percentage of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina is in these borders? Radovan Karadzic says "40 per

4 cent." Well, this will be increased to 50. There are some 20 that are in

5 dispute at the moment. And Karadzic says, "Posavina and Podrinje are the

6 ones under question." And in Dayton wasn't the agreement 49/51?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Well, that was the solution, in fact, that ratio. And do you

9 remember that Owen said that the war could have ended two years earlier

10 had they had America's support?

11 A. I remember that, and I also remember that the essential point here

12 was to accept the Vance-Owen Plan, and the fact that there were certain

13 disagreements on certain small -- other points should be negotiated later

14 on and put right, if possible. So the percentage was the same. It would

15 have perhaps been greater with respect to Republika Srpska.

16 Q. Now take a look at page 95, whereas this fear is expressed again

17 in the following way: Radovan Karadzic says, it's a quotation:

18 "Provinces are not internationally recognised legal entities." He's

19 quoting from the document. "And they cannot enter into agreement with

20 foreign states or international organisations." And then Slobodan

21 Milosevic says, "Of course they're not internationally recognised. The

22 states of America are not internationally recognised legal entities

23 either."

24 And then there's mention of Quebec having 700 agreed conventions

25 with France, and I say, "Well, that is excellent. You'll have as many

Page 23955

1 with Serbia, each province." And this is on page 96. "We have an

2 advantage because Serbia is not an independent state but is within the

3 framework of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, so it will be cooperating

4 also with non-independent states that are part of others." So all these

5 remarks are in the interest of a peaceful solution being found.

6 And then, as during the examination-in-chief, you said that I was

7 the one who negotiated. I don't have my notes exactly how you put it, but

8 that I was the main negotiator with the international community.

9 A. With the international community.

10 Q. Yes, that is correct. But do you remember that was always upon

11 their request?

12 A. That is what I said, and that can surely be seen from the notes.

13 The international community insisted on talking to you. So that is

14 nothing terrible about that. It was accepted by the Serbian side. I even

15 remember very well Mr. Holbrooke's speech in the State Department when he

16 said, "Negotiations in relation to Bosnia and Herzegovina, Republika

17 Srpska should focus on you and that the other parties should be part of

18 the delegation." And I think that is how it was, and it bore fruit, as we

19 know.

20 Q. My point, Mr. Lilic, is that they insisted upon this and that I

21 endeavoured, as can be seen from these notes, when Yugoslavia was formed

22 that Yugoslavia should take over those things and that we should not

23 interfere.

24 So look at page 112, please. Cosic says to me, "You have an

25 invitation from Vance and Owen" - this is to go to that meeting - "and

Page 23956

1 Momir Bulatovic and me." And Bulatovic says, "Jansen has reiterated that

2 invitation, as he was at the time presiding in the European Community."

3 Cosic says, "We didn't say no to Vance and Owen." Milosevic: "The

4 invitation addressed is up to us. They cannot determine the composition

5 of the Yugoslav delegation. They can give you advice regarding the

6 composition, but that is something quite different. The possibility of

7 going there I am reviewing from one standpoint. Should we, because of his

8 explicit request, accept that invitation?" I'm referring to us from the

9 republics, because I'm advocating that Yugoslavia should be the party

10 negotiating. And when we came before the cameras, he said, "On behalf of

11 the European Community, I have invited President Milosevic to participate

12 in the work of the Geneva conference, to make his contribution," et

13 cetera. I didn't give a response. "We need to think it over. And there

14 is the possibility that if I fail to go, they could say that they are

15 refusing to contribute to the success of the Geneva conference. That is

16 all. That is the whole point." And then Vladislav Jovanovic, who was

17 Foreign Minister at the time, said, "Please review that in a positive

18 light." And on the following page, page 113, this is in the context of

19 the point I'm making that it is the international community that insisted

20 on us making a contribution. It was not us pushing our way in there, but

21 on the contrary, because we thought it was Yugoslavia's duty, that of the

22 federal organs.

23 And on page 113, I say once again, "I will communicate with Vance

24 once again, and if I decide that we shouldn't go, then I will say that a

25 Yugoslav delegation will go without me. I refuse to go three times."

Page 23957

1 Cosic says, "I understand you, and I would refuse it also in your

2 position."

3 Yes, I note the interpreter's remarks that we need to slow down.

4 Slobodan Milosevic said, "We are not a party to the conflict in

5 Bosnia. Serbia is not represented at the conference in Geneva. The

6 Yugoslav delegation is there, and it is the responsibility of the Yugoslav

7 federal institutions. Therefore, we as Yugoslavia are represented." But

8 he insisted, "You cannot refuse to make a contribution."

9 And then I say, "I think it would be a good thing if we resolve

10 the problem in a spirit of understanding, that we should not be stubborn

11 about it," et cetera. Is that right, Mr. Lilic?

12 A. It says everything here in this document, and there's no doubt

13 about the fact that your presence there was extremely significant.

14 Q. Well, that is why they requested that I go all the time.

15 I don't know how I come to the next page. Oh, yes, tab 41 now.

16 This is a continuation of the session which was held in several parts.

17 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. It should be noted for the record

18 that we're dealing with Exhibit 469 and these various tabs come in that.

19 Yes.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. It is from this meeting of the council, held also on the 11th of

22 August, and I am suggesting that we send a letter of the following

23 contents. And then I read out a draft of the letter that I wrote. "With

24 reference to the invitation to the 13th Plenary Session of the Conference

25 on Yugoslavia --"

Page 23958

1 A. I'm sorry, I don't have tab 41 here.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is tab 41, Your Honours.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but Mr. Lilic doesn't have that

4 tab.


6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Do you have it now?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On page 4, I say that we should send them a reply in response to

10 Carrington's invitation to the 13th Plenary Session in Brussels. And I

11 read, "With reference to the invitation to the 13th Plenary of the

12 Conference on Yugoslavia, I wish to remind you that at the last, 12th,

13 Plenary Session in Brussels, we informed the conference that following the

14 proclamation of the constitution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

15 the delegations of the Republics of Serbia and Montenegro in future will

16 be considered a single unified delegation of the Federal Republic of

17 Yugoslavia."

18 And then I say that, "This should be sent to Lord Carrington and

19 signed by Bulatovic and myself," because we had received the invitation.

20 And then Milan Panic, who was at the time already federal Prime

21 Minister, an American of Serb extraction, says, "No one has anything

22 against. No one is opposed. And I propose that the text written by

23 Mr. Milosevic be adopted as written."

24 So we were endeavouring to have Yugoslavia assert itself, and that

25 is what I say on page 10 again. "Our position is that we have done

Page 23959

1 everything we can to create Yugoslavia and for it to survive. We will be

2 talking about the question of state continuity and all other matters."

3 And then I say in the middle of the next paragraph, "Are we going to

4 respect this state that we have formed or not?" So my efforts were

5 directed towards these -- the authorities being -- the authority for this

6 being taken over by the federal institutions.

7 Now, look at page 13 now, please. There's just one remark. I

8 join in when Milan Panic was explaining something, and I say, "The

9 responsibility is with the European Community, which has created the war

10 in Bosnia, and we need to be blamed for it. We need to cover up their

11 crime committed in breaking up an independent state." Panic then says,

12 "But we mustn't say that to him because if you say that, then it's

13 pressing the point and everyone is aware of it anyway." Is that right,

14 Mr. Lilic?

15 A. That is what it says here in the stenographic notes.

16 Q. And then on page 10, I say: "If I may add, we should show a

17 maximum respect for the political content of the declaration proclaimed by

18 the Federal Assembly when the constitution was proclaimed. This was

19 achieved through a broad-based democratic process. A platform was

20 established for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I don't see that we

21 need to change the approach taken in the declaration. It is obvious from

22 what we are all saying today that the need is being confirmed of asserting

23 the contents of that very declaration. And I would also add that that

24 declaration has met with a positive response of the international

25 community. It was not met with repulsion or rejection. On the contrary,

Page 23960

1 it was seen as a constructive approach following the formation of

2 Yugoslavia. The world will not start with us around this table. We have

3 a continuity in political behaviour and the platform defined in the

4 declaration."

5 Cosic then says, "I support and confirm this statement."

6 That was our position and I assume you remember that.

7 A. Yes. The declaration was registered in the United Nations too.

8 Q. That's right. This is not directly linked to what we have been

9 saying, but as the situation in Kosovo was referred to, please look at

10 page 88. Slobodan Milosevic: "We have to separate as many Albanians as

11 possible from the separatist movement. The members of the separatist

12 movement and those acting under their pressure will never vote in the

13 elections. Therefore, we must separate the Albanians -- the mass of the

14 Albanians from the separatists. That is the only strategy on which our

15 policies should be based."

16 And then on page 90, in response to what Milan Panic says, "Make

17 him come not because he likes you but make such a situation that he should

18 come." And Milosevic says: "Milan, if they had voted at the elections

19 two years ago today in the People's Assembly of Serbia, they would have 30

20 members of parliament." I'm referring to the Albanians. "It's not a

21 question of them not being represented. They would be represented indeed,

22 those 30 deputies could have said what they wanted and they could have

23 made draft bills and laws. That is the line of separation, the separatist

24 movement in Kosovo. And I'm not referring to the Albanians as such. The

25 only aim of the separatist movement is to separate Serbia -- Kosovo from

Page 23961












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 23962

1 Serbia and join it to Albania."

2 And then I explain to Panic that, "In spite of the boycott on the

3 elections, we do have several Albanians in parliament from among the ranks

4 of those that did not boycott the elections."

5 So please look at tab 43 very briefly. My criticism of Panic, in

6 connection with the London conference, at which he agreed -- and this is

7 on page 15, page 15. Have you found page 15? At the bottom of the page:

8 Slobodan Milosevic speaking, "That interventions should cease across the

9 border with Bosnia-Herzegovina".

10 "We are not intervening over there. If we had discussed that

11 document, we would have to disprove that." And then he goes on to explain

12 things. I say, "Simply one should write down the truth." That is what is

13 said on page 16. And one can see how many people were sitting round that

14 table at the time.

15 Then there's reference to the assertion of the results of the

16 London conference. Cosic and Panic speak about that.

17 I have not managed last night to read through the entire binder,

18 but I will devote the rest of my time to questions which were left over,

19 had it not been for these binders, that I wanted to address to Mr. Lilic.

20 Mr. Lilic, tell me, please, since you were involved in politics

21 from the beginning, president of the party, president of the Assembly of

22 Serbia, and later president of FRY, vice-premier, et cetera, when did you

23 hear for the first time of the expression "ethnic cleansing"? Was this in

24 connection with the situation in Kosovo?

25 A. I must admit that if you mean in our country, in the territory of

Page 23963

1 the Republic of Serbia -- because I heard the expression long since in

2 some other situations.

3 Q. Yes, of course in Yugoslavia.

4 A. I think, as far as I know, at least, it was linked directly to the

5 beginning of terrorist activities, or to be more precise, the beginning of

6 the NATO air raids.

7 Q. Very well. Do you remember that in Serbia this was an expression

8 used to denote a crime, the worst crime?

9 A. Yes, absolutely.

10 Q. And when there was reference to this in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

11 Croatia, or anywhere else, when ethnic cleansing was referred to --

12 A. That is why I'm asking you whether you meant in the territory of

13 the Republic of Serbia.

14 Q. No, I'm talking about the broader context of the former

15 Yugoslavia.

16 A. Then it is certainly linked to the early 1990s, the beginning of

17 the conflict in Bosnia and Croatia.

18 Q. My precise question is the following: Was this an expression used

19 by us in Serbia to denote a crime, the worst crime?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During all those crises - that is, from the beginning of the

22 conflict in the early 1990s until the end - did the authorities in Serbia

23 and Yugoslavia and I personally seek to protect our entire population,

24 regardless of their ethnicity and on a non-discriminatory basis?

25 A. In answer to one of the questions during the last hearing, I said

Page 23964

1 that the ethnic composition of the Republic of Serbia was reminiscent in

2 many ways of the ethnic composition of the former SFRY. Therefore, all

3 those living on the territory of the Republic of Serbia and also the

4 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were given all the necessary care and they

5 were represented in all our legal documents and had -- were able to use

6 those rights.

7 You mentioned a moment ago the failure of the Albanians to utilise

8 their right to vote, which they refused to do. Therefore, throughout the

9 events of the 1990s, Serbia had an almost identical ethnic composition, up

10 until the moment when the Serbs were expelled, upon which the composition

11 changed; there were far more Serbs living in Serbia than before.

12 Q. All right. Tell me, please: Throughout the time that you spent

13 in political life, which means this whole time coincides with the duration

14 of the conflict, were the Croats and Muslims persecuted during the war in

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia in Serbia at that time?

16 A. No. Quite the reverse. And this is easy to prove, not using our

17 own documents but United Nations sources, that thousands of Albanians,

18 yes, and thousands of Muslims crossed into the territory of the Republic

19 of Serbia. There's the case of the brigade, but there are many more

20 drastic cases where people crossed over from Bosnia-Herzegovina to find

21 protection in Serbia. And there are similar examples with members of the

22 Croatian ethnic group. And what I considered to be the highest quality of

23 life living on the territory of the Republic of Serbia is that there were

24 no excesses, no excessive behaviour on an ethnic basis or religious,

25 confessional, national composition. There weren't cases of that kind.

Page 23965

1 Take the example of Vojvodina, for example, which could serve as a

2 standard for Europe as a whole, not only for the Republic of Serbia,

3 Vojvodina province.

4 Q. Now, you mentioned the Muslim refugees too. I had information,

5 facts and figures at that time, which I assumed that you as the president

6 of the Serbian assembly are disposed of too. And they told us that we had

7 when the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in that first year, 70.000

8 Muslim refugees coming in to Serbia from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 A. Yes, quite correct. I think that actually the figure was far

10 greater later on and 200.000 is the figure mentioned. But this is

11 statistical data. But your figure was quite correct, but as I say, I

12 think there were actually more than 100.000.

13 Q. Therefore, those people, the Muslims who were fleeing from Bosnia

14 and taking refuge in Serbia, I assume that they did not consider that they

15 were going there to take refuge with the aggressor side. Isn't that

16 right, Mr. Lilic?

17 A. Yes, certainly.

18 Q. And tell me, do you know whether any religious sites were damaged

19 at all -- desecrated at all in Serbia during the duration of these

20 conflicts?

21 A. During the conflicts in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, no.

22 According to my information, no, they weren't. I think later on there was

23 a mosque in Novi Pazar which was destroyed, but I think that was during

24 the bombing and that we reconstructed it. I think it has been rebuilt

25 with the participation of the government of the Republic of Serbia.

Page 23966

1 Q. All right. Fine. Now, let me go on to another matter, something

2 I didn't have a chance to look into because of the short time I had at my

3 disposal. I wasn't able to ask American Ambassador Galbraith, who

4 testified in the meantime between your first testimony here and today.

5 And he presented a report here, dated 1992. August was the month. I

6 don't want to burden you with the report itself. But what I do want to do

7 is to ask you this: I want to ask you this question, and it is entitled

8 "Camps in Serbia." It comes under the heading of "Camps in Serbia." And

9 here is what he writes on page 37, what page 37 of the report says: "A

10 list of concentration camps. [In English] Prisons at the territory -- at

11 the territory of Serbia and Montenegro in which the citizens of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina are captive." [Interpretation] And then there are nine

13 enumerated ones in Serbia, two in Montenegro. And I'm going to read out

14 the list. This is what it says: [In English] "Loznica, sport recreation

15 centre." [Interpretation] Sports recreation centre in Loznica, therefore.

16 And the number of detainees, 1.880. And then it says, "Belgrade, the

17 Batajnica airport, 2.200 prisoners there." Then it says, "Belgrade, the

18 barracks, the 4th of July Barracks, 2 and a half thousand detainees."

19 Then Nis comes next, the military centre, military camp, it says, 1

20 thousand - it's rather small print, so let me have a look, not to make a

21 mistake - 1.540 is the figure there. Then we come to Subotica, and it

22 says, "Assembly point, 5.000 detainees." Then "Aleksinac, closed mine,

23 4.000 detainees." Sabac is next, 1.440 there. Then Mokra Gora, near

24 Uzice, with 3.000. Then Prijepolje, 480.

25 There you have it. I don't want to go into the second part of

Page 23967

1 that report, but the year is 1992. And this was written -- it was written

2 by, I assume Mr. Galbraith. Yes, it says "Galbraith," and "Michael Miner"

3 the two of them compiled that report.

4 Now, please, is there any truth whatsoever, and could you comment,

5 please, about a piece of information like this.

6 A. First of all, I listened to what you read out carefully, and I'm

7 astounded by what you read out. I don't know where Mr. Galbraith got that

8 data from. I assume that they were people -- if these, all these centres

9 existed at all, that they were people who had fled from the territory of

10 Bosnia and Croatia and happened to be there -- to be listed there. I

11 don't know that concentration camps exist in Serbia, and I think that this

12 is offensive for all the Serb people and for all of us who lived in

13 Serbia, this kind of observation presented by Mr. Galbraith. I say that

14 for this reason: Anybody who knows the history of the Serb people well,

15 and you know full well that we were never a genocidal people, nor did we

16 ever enter into any campaigns and conquests which this is trying to show.

17 Anyway, briefly speaking, I don't know that on the territory of Federal

18 Republic of Yugoslavia there ever existed, not only in 1992, but in all

19 the other years, any camps.

20 Q. Well, you would have to have known had they existed; right?

21 A. Yes, I would have had to have known had they existed, especially

22 in these military facilities that are mentioned here. So they are

23 military facilities that you read out, Batajnica, the 4th of July

24 barracks, and so on.

25 Q. Tell me, please: Do you happen to remember, in view of the fact

Page 23968

1 that we cooperated closely, that in the beginning several delegations who

2 came to see me on different -- with respect to different questions raised

3 the question about camps in Serbia. And I hope you'll agree -- you'll

4 remember my answer, and that that answer was, "I don't want to convince

5 you of any absurdities. You have a helicopter at your disposal. Fly

6 around. Once you get into the helicopter, put your finger on the map. Go

7 to that place, and see for yourselves whether any camps exist or not." Do

8 you remember me saying that?

9 A. Yes, I remember that they wanted to convince themselves, to see

10 for themselves, and that you placed these resources at their disposal.

11 Q. And just one delegation went off, and they said, "We'll avail

12 ourselves of your offer," and they went to this mine, this closed mine in

13 Aleksinac; right?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. And what they found there was a guard, a watchman, who was a

16 watchman for the whole complex there, looking after the mining equipment,

17 and nobody else. And they did fly out in a helicopter directly to the

18 site to see what they would find. Of course, I offered them this

19 helicopter, and they took me up on the offer. I'm sure you'll remember

20 that.

21 A. Yes, I do remember that. And I wish to repeat that in Yugoslavia

22 and Serbia throughout that time, almost all the nine years, there were

23 never any incidents on an ethnic basis, on a nationalist basis, nor was

24 there any possibility for setting up anything of the kind. And I think

25 that the public knows, generally speaking, and the press informed us, that

Page 23969

1 even some people that were of different ethnic groups and did commit

2 crimes and were supposed to be prosecuted, we let them off, because we

3 didn't want anybody to think that there were incidents of that kind. We

4 allowed people to go back to Raska without any passports, although

5 Sulejman Ugnjelic [phoen], the case in point, who had left --

6 Q. He was an extremist; right?

7 A. Yes. Upon his return from Turkey he was to have been arrested,

8 but allowed him to enter the country and deal in politics, regardless of

9 what was happening behind this political arena, the political stage.

10 Q. One more question, please: With respect to the arming and

11 paramilitary formations, I would just like to remind you, as this was an

12 exhibit here, the minutes from a meeting in 1992 of the Supreme Defence

13 Council. You at the time were not the president, but I'm sure you had a

14 look at the documents. And it is to be found on page 2, last paragraph of

15 point 1, in which it says the following: "Through energetic measures to

16 make individual support to the offices of the Yugoslavian MUP, to prevent

17 all jeopardy to the property, safety of citizens and to prevent any

18 fanning of the flames of national ethnic hostility." And before that, the

19 document stated that, "The state borders towards Bosnia should be

20 controlled, of the -- municipality, and prevent the workings of armed

21 paramilitaries and any other -- and prevent the passage of any armed

22 vehicles that have not been announced."

23 Is it true that when we're talking about paramilitary formations,

24 in general, that those paramilitary formations were organised by

25 individual opposition parties in Serbia; right?

Page 23970

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did the socialist party ever organise any armed formations of any

3 kind whatsoever?

4 A. No. And I think I said that last time I was here.

5 Q. Is it clear from this that it was established that, as it says

6 here, there are -- there was personal support on the part of individual

7 officers of the army and MUP and that efforts were taken to prevent that?

8 A. Yes. And some high-ranking officers of the JNA, as far as I

9 remember it, were replaced and retired. They were pensioned off.

10 And may I just add something, if I may? One more sentence: There

11 was a decision by the Supreme Defence Council from the beginning of 1993

12 that all paramilitary units should be extinguished, and that kind of order

13 was issued as well.

14 Q. Tell me, please: Did it ever happen that in the leadership of

15 Serbia, in any of the organs and bodies of the leadership, at any position

16 or post, with an open or closed meeting, did anybody ever of our

17 officials, politicians, or at any level - so I'm not limiting you to any

18 level; my level, your level, any level - did they ever strive for an ideal

19 and an idea called Greater Serbia? Did they ever advocate that?

20 A. If I remember correctly, that question or a similar one was one

21 that was raised during my last testimony. And my answer was that it was

22 our position of principle - when I say "ours," the Socialist Party of

23 Serbia - was to preserve Yugoslavia. And many of us joined the party to

24 preserve Yugoslavia. Why? Now, I will repeat the sentence I uttered

25 then: Because that was the only Yugoslavia which was a state in which all

Page 23971

1 Serbs really did live in one country, on the territory they lived in. So

2 I think that was a synonym used by someone else, in fact, where it was our

3 goal, our aim, including my own aim, to preserve the territory occupied by

4 the former Yugoslavia, and all those who wished to leave could leave by

5 peaceful means on the basis of a referendum but the same right should be

6 accorded to people who wished to say, that is to say the Serbs

7 principally, they could stay and live on the territory they had occupied

8 for centuries, so to enjoy the same rights as others. And as far as I am

9 concerned, the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, whatever it was

10 called later on, that would be the sole real form for having the Serbs

11 live in one state, in a single state.

12 Q. All right. May I now go on to the next topic. You were the

13 president of the FRY for a full four-year term, the president of the

14 Supreme Defence Council as well. You were in command of the army in

15 wartime and in peace, by virtue of your office as president. Tell me now,

16 please: Did I ever interfere in commanding the army throughout your term

17 of office, throughout your mandate?

18 A. Let me say again that that was another question you asked me last

19 time, or a similar one.

20 Q. Well, if it was similar, I do apologise, but it's very important.

21 It's an important question.

22 A. The question was similar. The fact is, and the rule is, that the

23 president of the Supreme Defence Council is in command of the Army of

24 Yugoslavia in conformity with the decisions taken by the Supreme Defence

25 Council. So I think that the answer is quite clear. The exclusive right

Page 23972

1 is vested in the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

2 Q. And did I ever interfere? Did I ever meddle and ask you to make

3 any decisions?

4 A. No, nothing that would go beyond the decisions made by the Supreme

5 Defence Council. If there was any outstanding issue, then the Supreme

6 Defence Council would hold a session, and there were 53 meetings in all.

7 Q. Did any of the generals or colonels being promoted to rank of

8 general, were they promoted at a request from me at those Supreme Defence

9 Council meetings, following a request from myself?

10 A. Well, a good answer to that question would be that we dovetailed

11 and coordinated all these positions, with Momir Bulatovic, with you. It

12 was always a concerted effort and they were always good officers, but to

13 satisfy the interests of one and all.

14 Q. Yes, that is understandable. But can you quote a single example

15 where I had a protege of my own, where I wanted to have somebody promoted

16 or where I wanted to have someone dismissed and replaced perhaps?

17 A. Well, it's difficult for me to remember any case in point to give

18 you a name. Quite certainly - and this is something I said last time -

19 all decisions were arrived at through consensus. So while I was the

20 president of the Supreme Defence Council, there were no outstanding issues

21 with regard to the appointment of generals, promotion of generals or their

22 pensioning off, at least during my term of office.

23 Q. All right, fine. Now, I would like to ask you just a few more

24 questions which have to do with Resolution 1244, linked to Kosovo. And

25 I'm going to quote some excerpts from that resolution. I have them here.

Page 23973

1 On page 1, the 10th of June, 1999 is the date. Condemning all acts of

2 violence against the Kosovo population as well as all terrorist acts by

3 any party.

4 A. I didn't hear the interpretation of that. But I have the original

5 text here.

6 Q. Condemning is what it says. It condemns, condemning all acts of

7 violence.

8 And then it goes on to say, "Welcoming the general principles on a

9 political solution [In English] to the Kosovo crisis adopted on 6th of May

10 annexed here to this resolution."

11 [Interpretation] Annex 1: [In English] "And welcoming also the

12 acceptance of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of the principles set

13 forth in points 1 to 9 of the paper presented in Belgrade"

14 [Interpretation] on the 2nd of June, 1999.

15 That is Annex 2 to the resolution, and it says: [In English]

16 "Reaffirming the commitment, all member states --" [Interpretation] the

17 reference is member states of the United Nations -- "to the sovereignty

18 and territorial integrity [In English] of the Federal Republic of

19 Yugoslavia and the other states of the region as set out in the Helsinki

20 final act and Annex 2."

21 [Interpretation] And this is reference to the final act of

22 Helsinki. And then it is said that, "It is decided that a political

23 solution will be based on general principles contained in Annex 1," so the

24 decision is taken to that effect. And then it says in point 3,

25 "Deployment of the international security presence in Kosovo will be

Page 23974

1 synchronised."

2 And then in point 6, it says that, "A special representative will

3 closely coordinate with the international security presence [In English]

4 to ensure that both presence operate towards the same goal and in a

5 mutually supportive manner."

6 [Interpretation] So this is what the resolution says, and I assume

7 you remember that.

8 Then in point 9, under "B" it says: [In English] "The Kosovo

9 Liberation Army and other armed Kosovo Albanian groups, as required in

10 paragraph 15 below." [Interpretation] Now, tell me, please, was the KLA

11 and other groups demilitarised?

12 A. No, never.

13 Q. Was the sovereignty and territorial integrity guaranteed by this

14 resolution?

15 A. Yes, that is what the resolution says.

16 Q. Then under C, point 9, it says, "Establishing a secure environment

17 in which refugees and displaced persons can return home in safety." And

18 then it talks about humanitarian aid to be delivered.

19 And then in D: [In English] "Ensuring public safety and order

20 until the international civil presence can take responsibility for this

21 task."

22 [Interpretation] At the end of point 10, it says, "[In English] To

23 ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of

24 Kosovo."

25 [Interpretation] So that was the obligation taken upon itself by

Page 23975

1 the international forces, the conditions for a peaceful and a normal life

2 of all the citizens of Kosovo. Is it true that that was not achieved or

3 fulfilled but that, rather, under the auspices of the United Nations, more

4 than 250.000 Serbs were expelled from Kosovo after the forces arrived,

5 which according to this resolution, were meant to protect everyone? Is

6 that right?

7 A. Yes. What the Resolution 1244 says is correct. De jure, that is

8 what it was. But the de facto situation in Kosovo was quite different.

9 Not only were 250.000 people expelled, but last time I mentioned something

10 which I would like to repeat. It is a fact that Pristina there are only

11 200 Serbs remaining. There were more than 40.000 before. They are all

12 living in one apartment block. And after the last act signed by

13 Mr. Steiner, I think it will be hard for anyone to return to Kosovo and

14 Metohija.

15 Q. But let us clear this up. The international community pledged

16 that it would create conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all the

17 inhabitants of Kosovo, whereas under its auspices, 350.000 people were

18 expelled of which 250.000 were Serbs and 100.000 other non-Albanians. Is

19 that right?

20 A. Yes. And about another 300.000 Albanians have resettled there,

21 have settled there, coming from different European countries.

22 Q. So that is correct.

23 It says in point 15: [In English] "The KLA and other armed Kosovo

24 Albanian groups end immediately all offensive actions and comply with the

25 requirement for demilitarisation as laid down by the head of international

Page 23976

1 security presence in consultation with a special representative of the

2 Secretary-General." [Interpretation] That hasn't been done either, has

3 it?

4 A. Yes, none of that is in dispute. Only I think we differ on one

5 point. I think you and I could have done all that before the

6 international community arrived. We could have made a census of the

7 population. You know that I even asked you and spoke to His Holiness, the

8 Patriarch of Serbia, Mr. Pavle, to see what is the church property in

9 Kosovo and Metohija. I think we would have been much more effective.

10 What you are saying is quite correct, but I think the Serbs have

11 nothing -- gained nothing from that.

12 Q. Yes, but my question is: Is it true that they did not fulfil what

13 they promised through this resolution?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. Under J it even says, "Protecting and promoting human rights."

16 What human rights of Serbs can be even referred to over there?

17 A. There are no Serbs there. And of course the very few that are

18 left have no rights at all.

19 Q. And then it says that it decides that an international civil and

20 security presence are established -- [In English] Are established for an

21 initial period of 12 months, to continue thereafter unless the Security

22 Council decides otherwise."

23 [Interpretation] And then there's Annex 1, in which there's

24 reference again to demilitarisation of the terrorist organisation the KLA.

25 Then there's Annex 2, which in point 5 again says: [In English] " -- a

Page 23977

1 normal life for all inhabitants in Kosovo." [Interpretation] And then in

2 point 6 it says, of this Annex 2: "After withdrawal a agreed number of

3 Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return [In English] To

4 perform the following functions: Liaison with the international civil

5 mission and the international security presence, making clearing

6 minefields, maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites, maintaining

7 a presence at key border crossings."

8 [Interpretation] Therefore, all these things envisaged by the UN

9 resolution has not been fulfilled; isn't that right, Mr. Lilic?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. Neither the military nor the military personnel were not allowed

12 to return and we have a situation of occupation rather than the situation

13 proclaimed by this UN resolution.

14 And again, in point 8 of this Annex 2, it says -- it refers to the

15 principle of sovereignty and territorial integrity of Yugoslavia. And

16 again, the demilitarisation of the KLA and again negotiations between the

17 two parties. None of this was carried out; isn't that right?

18 A. Yes, it is. I said, as far as the sovereignty over Kosovo and

19 Metohija is concerned, that is, the sovereignty of the Republic of Serbia

20 over that area, there's not the letter "S" left of sovereignty, even

21 though it is prescribed by the resolution.

22 Q. Isn't it true that even when this UN resolution has been trampled

23 upon what would have happened with any other kind of agreement that

24 doesn't have that weight? Is there any higher authority than the UN?

25 JUDGE MAY: That is pure speculation.

Page 23978

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. In that case, I should like to remind you, for the reasons that

3 you confirmed a moment ago, of just a part of a speech at a congress. I

4 will not quote from the one I've already quoted from for these

5 reasons - and I say: "This shameful mission of the so-called

6 international community in Kosmet, which has experienced a fiasco in every

7 respect should be brought to an end as soon as possible and that the

8 authorities of our country should take over full competence over our own

9 territory. Unlike them, we are quite capable, without anyone's

10 assistance, to ensure peace and security for all citizens on a footing of

11 equality."

12 And then - and I hope you will remember this, but that transcript

13 was served on us by the opposing side - I say that "Despite all the blows

14 that Serbia has received from the world through sanctions and turning a

15 deaf eye to the suffering of a small and peace-loving people, to the

16 expectations that things, over the evil hovering above it, will be

17 resolved of its own, in some miraculous way, that the tyrants will get

18 tired of choking one and the same victim and look around for another one

19 somewhere.

20 "So despite all those blows, Serbia and we over here do not wish

21 anyone ill. We would not like to retaliate for this bloody payback, this

22 bloody debt. We are still inclined to act in a Christian or leftist

23 way - who knows which - and to believe in the victory of good and justice,

24 but our experience, as well as the experience of other nations, has taught

25 us that good and justice do not come of their own accord, that enormous

Page 23979

1 and, with time, organised efforts are required to defeat evil, hatred, and

2 violence among peoples." Do you remember that, Mr. Lilic?

3 A. That is a speech delivered at a congress, at our congress.

4 Q. Yes. And do you recall, as at the time you were still the

5 vice-premier, apart from all the things that are not in dispute from the

6 UN resolution, as the fact that none of it was fulfilled is not in

7 dispute, that the day Ahtisaari and Chernomyrdin came to Belgrade a

8 meeting was held, a plenary meeting, of a Yugoslav and Russian delegation?

9 A. I know there was a meeting, but I really don't know the

10 composition of the participants.

11 Q. But that can easily be verified. Everyone was present. Milan

12 Milutinovic, the president of the Serbia, Zivadin Jovanovic, the Minister

13 of Foreign Affairs, some other officials who participated --

14 A. At the time, I was nowhere near being involved.

15 Q. Yes. But our generals attended the meeting as well. In fact,

16 there were too many people present at that meeting for anything to be

17 presented falsely, and there was Chernomyrdin heading the Russian

18 delegation and Russian generals. I'm sure you remember the report about

19 that meeting.

20 A. Yes, I know General Ivasa [phoen] well from that group.

21 Q. Yes, all of them were there. Did you know that Chernomyrdin, on

22 behalf of President Yeltsin and on behalf of Russia, formally guaranteed

23 that Russia would not agree to a resolution being adopted on the basis of

24 chapter 7 and if such a resolution is adopted pursuant to chapter 7,

25 Russia would veto it?

Page 23980

1 A. Yes, I know that.

2 Q. So even this resolution was, after all, adopted pursuant to

3 chapter 7, and even as such it was not respected. The only question is

4 who is to blame for this, Chernomyrdin or the international community.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, this is a very long way from what

6 the witness can give evidence about. And your time is now up.

7 We'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes. And then the amicus when we

8 come back.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just finish my last question?

14 You interrupted me as I was halfway through.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It was not a matter which the witness could deal

16 with. He wasn't at the meeting. All he could say was he'd read a report

17 about it.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But you didn't let me finish the

19 question.

20 JUDGE MAY: No, I know I didn't, because it wasn't something he

21 could deal with. It was well away from his time.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When I finish my question, you will

23 see that he's able to answer it. It will only take 30 seconds.

24 JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll see if he can. But less than 30 seconds.

25 Yes.

Page 23981

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Less than 30 seconds. I promise.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Lilic, I'm not talking about the Russian delegation, which

4 certainly was acting in good faith, but I'm talking about violence that

5 was applied to us and them and the UN in the crime committed against our

6 people. Is that right or not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic, you've got half an hour, up to

10 half an hour.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Honours, to

12 finish even before then, but I will simply not have time to refer to the

13 documents we received in the last two days, even though there would be

14 many questions to be asked. But I would like to ask Mr. Lilic if he could

15 tell me in general terms, if he could look at that big binder and say that

16 in the tabs from 35 to 39 mainly contain decisions of the military

17 authorities during the period when he was Supreme Commander.

18 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] If you could just look through them very quickly

20 because I have very little time. So I'm talking about tabs 35 to 39.

21 Those were decisions taken by the military authorities at a time when you

22 were the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of Yugoslavia. From 35 to

23 39. Just look quickly at the dates, please. They are decisions.

24 A. I see this for the first time too, so I'm afraid I can't answer so

25 quickly.

Page 23982












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 23983

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I should just like to draw your

2 attention, Your Honours, to this. You can check this. These were

3 decisions taken during the period -- during the term of office of

4 Mr. Lilic as president of the state.

5 I would also like to draw your attention to something which I

6 consider to be of significance; that all the tabs from 40 through to the

7 end were compiled when the president of the country was Dobrica Cosic.

8 Q. And what I would like to ask you, Mr. Lilic, if you can give me a

9 brief answer - I won't be suggestive at all or leading - do you know what

10 happened in Hrcovci [phoen] in Vojvodina, at a point in time in the

11 initial period of all these events in the territory of the former

12 Yugoslavia?

13 A. I know stories about it linked to the Croats living there.

14 Q. Yes. That was the incident I'm referring to. Could you explain

15 to Their Honours what happened and what the authorities in Serbia

16 undertook in that connection.

17 A. It is difficult for me with any certainty to comment on that

18 event.

19 Q. Very well. I won't insist. But then when you were asked about

20 camps that may have existed in the territory of Serbia, do you remember

21 that immediately after Vukovar a number of captured Croatian citizens were

22 in Sremska Mitrovica and at Stajicevo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that the only case you know of that people from another

25 republic were in the territory of the Republic of Serbia, and do you know

Page 23984

1 that later on they were more or less all exchanged for captured Serbs in

2 Croatia?

3 A. Yes, I do know that.

4 Q. Thank you. You were the Supreme Commander of the Army of

5 Yugoslavia for four years as the president of the Federal Republic of

6 Yugoslavia, from 1993 to 1997, so for exactly half of the crisis period of

7 1991 to 1999.

8 A. Yes, I was president of the Supreme Defence Council for four

9 years.

10 Q. The Army of Yugoslavia, which you were the Supreme Commander, ex

11 officio, came into being in 1992, after Slovenia, Croatia, and

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia were internationally recognised; is that

13 right?

14 A. Yes. I think I explained that.

15 Q. Yes, you did say that. I will ask you something else in that

16 connection. In terms of personnel and materiel, it came into existence,

17 it emerged out of the Yugoslav People's Army.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And during conflicts in the territory of the ex-Yugoslavia already

20 in June -- no, no, but let me -- I apologise. Let me ask you something

21 else first. Is it true that the Territorial Defences in the republics up

22 until June 1992 were under the command of the JNA and that both the

23 weapons and the equipment were the property of the JNA?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in that connection, is it true that the Territorial Defence of

Page 23985

1 Slovenia already in June grew into a Slovenian army and that, in terms of

2 personnel and materiel, it was formed out of the personnel and equipment

3 of the JNA?

4 A. Yes, that is true. And the identical situation applied in

5 Croatia.

6 Q. Yes. But the first army that developed out of the former JNA was

7 the Slovenian army. And the Supreme Commander was Mr. Milan Kucan as the

8 president of the Republic of Slovenia. I didn't have time to ask him that

9 question.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know how many men the Army of Yugoslavia numbered at the

12 time?

13 A. I do not have the precise figure.

14 Q. So the same happened in Croatia. I don't have to go into that

15 with you. Is it true that the Army of Yugoslavia -- that no fire was

16 opened at in Macedonia, that it withdrew without firing a single shot?

17 A. Let me correct you: The Yugoslav People's Army, not the Army of

18 Yugoslavia.

19 Q. Yes, that is the only place where fire was not opened against the

20 JNA and the JNA withdrew without a single shot being fired.

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. The next thing I'd like to ask you to explain to Their Honours has

23 to do with the relationship between the president of the Federal Republic

24 of Yugoslavia, as the Supreme Commander, towards the general staff of the

25 Army of Yugoslavia, as you were the Supreme Commander.

Page 23986

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was there anybody else, except for you, who was Supreme Commander

3 -- who was able to issue any kind of order, oral or in writing,

4 to the general staff or, rather, the chief of the general staff?

5 A. Generally speaking, the Army of Yugoslavia, in conformity with the

6 Supreme Defence Council's decisions, and president of the Federal Republic

7 of Yugoslavia was at the head, so nobody could issue a written or oral

8 order to the chief of the general staff.

9 Q. And is the best example for that - and here I have to go back to

10 tab 19 of 469, Exhibit 469, an example quoted here - where General Momcilo

11 Perisic, as the chief of the general staff, addresses you, and he writes a

12 letter to you in which he states that he has received a request from the

13 president of the republic with respect to some volunteers. Do you

14 remember that?

15 A. Yes. That was in September 1995.

16 Q. Yes. And your answer was - and this is also in that same tab -

17 you issued an order of the 29th of September, 1995; right?

18 A. Yes. I remember it very well.

19 Q. And this is what you say in that order: "We prohibit reception

20 and training in the Army of Yugoslavia of all persons, including

21 volunteers," under point 1; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And under point 2, "Reception and training from -- the reception

24 and training of the persons from item 1 of this order, in the Yugoslav

25 army, can be carried out only with my approval, given on the basis of the

Page 23987

1 Supreme Defence Council"; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. So was that the principle which was used in the relationship

4 between the general staff and the Supreme Command?

5 A. That was the only principle that met with the law and the command

6 of the Yugoslav army with respect to singleness of command and all the

7 rest of it.

8 Q. And was that how it was between the 15th of June, 1992 and the 1st

9 of June, 1995, when the president of Yugoslavia was Dobrica Cosic?

10 A. That is how it should have been. It's difficult for me to answer

11 whether it actually was.

12 Q. Yes. But that was the principle.

13 A. That was the law.

14 Q. And was the same thing true while the presidency of the SFRY was

15 still in existence? But let me not dwell on that. There was a sole

16 member examined here, Mr. Stipe Mesic, who was a member of the Yugoslav

17 State Presidency. He testified here. But at that time too, did this

18 principle hold true that orders to the general staff and to General

19 Kadijevic could have been issued only --

20 A. By the president of the Yugoslav state presidency.

21 Q. You mean as the collective presidency?

22 A. Yes, as the collective Supreme Commander.

23 Q. I see. Thank you.

24 Now could you please be given tab 20 of 469. And this brings us

25 to the point where you yourself were the participant in the

Page 23988

1 decision-making process and the signing of the agreement. I'm referring

2 to a meeting by the representatives of the top leadership of the Federal

3 Republic of Yugoslavia and Republika Srpska, which was held on the 29th of

4 August, 1995 in Dobanovci; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. We already discussed the matter here. The Court has heard about

7 it at length. But I'd like to dwell on one particular fragment which I

8 feel to be significant for Their Honours's decision-making process later

9 on.

10 You see at the end that mention is made of the fact that the

11 meeting was attended by the Patriarch of the Serbian Orthodox Church,

12 Mr. Pavle, and Bishop Irinej Bulovic; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, if you take a look at page 7. There we have what the Bishop

15 Irinej said. And this is what he said: "We must, however, accept the

16 clear fact that the international community will not negotiate with the

17 leaders of Republika Srpska but with President Milosevic. But President

18 Milosevic will not negotiate alone, himself, but wishes to include into

19 the delegation representatives of Republika Srpska too." Do you remember

20 that, that that was said?

21 A. Yes, of course.

22 Q. Now I'd like to ask you to take a look at page 12 -- page 12, when

23 the Patriarch of the Serbian Orthodox Church asked to be given the floor

24 and he said the following: "It is much more important what is being

25 signed rather than who is doing the signing." And he repeated the

Page 23989

1 church's appeal to agreement, unity. Do you remember that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when the agreement had already been prepared for signing and

4 when you were all due to sign, as it says here on page 15, everything was

5 already prepared and ready for signing, and when it came to the signing of

6 the document offered up, the leadership of Republika Srpska demanded that

7 the assembly at Pale state their views. And this was taken has an attempt

8 of the united approach before the international community to be put off

9 indefinitely. Is that right?

10 A. Yes. We had already had some bad experience with that kind of

11 behaviour, and that is why we insisted upon having it signed straight

12 away.

13 Q. And at one point there was the danger of complete divergence

14 between the two leaderships. And Patriarch Pavle cautioned that he would

15 not leave the room until there was agreement and unity on the part of the

16 Serbian leaders and that they would -- he could only be taken out by

17 force, and he hoped that that wouldn't be the case. Is that right?

18 A. Yes, that's right. And may I just add in quotation marks that our

19 side, meaning the FRY side, signed the document without the signature of

20 the representatives of Republika Srpska.

21 Q. Yes. But President Karadzic asked for a new break, a pause, and

22 it was only after that break that the document was signed. So was the

23 Patriarch's influence the overruling one?

24 A. Yes, it was. He prevailed upon the leadership of Republika

25 Srpska. So his presence was the decisive -- it was very important. Yes.

Page 23990

1 Q. Now I'd like to ask you one more thing: Today we looked at

2 transcripts or, rather, exhibits linked to the telephone conversations.

3 Now, from all this, does the following emerge, what we heard from you

4 today, that neither you nor Perisic nor the president of Serbia were able

5 to issue orders to the leadership of Republika Srpska about any matter at

6 all? Is that -- would that be right?

7 A. Well, if we take into account all the peace plans that fell

8 through because of, if I can use the word, their understanding of the

9 case, then we could draw that conclusion the way you put it just now.

10 Q. Now, I'd like to move on to the last part of my questioning. And

11 in order to do so, I'd like you to have tab 3 in front of you, tabs 3 and

12 4, although I'm not going to dwell on tab 4 for any length of time. It is

13 Exhibit 469 once again.

14 You responded to questions asked in the examination-in-chief,

15 although you weren't asked a lot. Several extracts from this document.

16 It is a programme, a party programme, a programme of the party to which

17 you belonged; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And Your Honours, on page 10 of

20 that document, last paragraph of the English translation, says the

21 following:

22 Q. That your party considers, believes, that the autonomous provinces

23 in Serbia cannot be states but can only be a form of territorial autonomy

24 for which the constitution establishes and guarantees the autonomous

25 rights which saw an expression of the specific national, historic, and

Page 23991

1 cultural specificities of the regions in question. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, does that mean, to all intents and purposes, that in keeping

4 with that programme that the amendments to the constitution of the

5 Republic of Serbia took place, which in practical terms means that the

6 sole thing that was abolished was the right to use the veto, the right of

7 veto which existed within Serbia?

8 A. Well, I'm going to be quite clear. This attribute of state-hood

9 was abolished. All the other rights remained.

10 Q. And up until that point in time, Serbia was not able to have a

11 united front towards the rest of the country, and within the republic

12 everybody could use the right of veto. And Serbia was not able to have

13 any question prevail which was of general importance for all the people in

14 Serbia. Would that be right?

15 A. Yes, it would. That's right.

16 Q. Now, if you remember - and you were a businessman at the time, but

17 as of 1990 you were a politician - do you happen to recall that this right

18 of veto was most often used when the budget was determined for the

19 Yugoslav People's Army?

20 A. To be quite frank, I don't know.

21 Q. Oh, you don't know that. Right. If you don't know that, do you

22 know this, that the right of veto was used very frequently at a point in

23 time where decisions were called upon to be made with regard to assistance

24 to the underdeveloped areas?

25 A. Yes, I do know about that.

Page 23992

1 Q. Now, I don't want to dwell on former times, but in 1990 in

2 particular the right of veto was used by Slovenia and Croatia with respect

3 to that issue, and that there were areas that previously could always

4 count on receiving aid and assistance and that it was representatives from

5 Croatia and Slovenia that started to curtail that right. Would that be

6 right?

7 A. Yes. And there is evidence of that.

8 Q. Now, I'd like to dwell on something else with respect to this

9 document, and that is page 11, paragraph 5 of the chapter on national

10 equality and federalism, in the English version, page 11, national

11 equality and federalism; and the B/C/S version is on page 10. And this is

12 what it says: "With the new Yugoslav constitution, the Socialist Federal

13 Republic of Yugoslavia was still in existence, the new Yugoslav

14 constitution allow for the forming of Autonomous Provinces in

15 Yugoslavia --" isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That's all that was discussed, exclusively that question. And

18 that is what it says in this second programme too. As to the other parts

19 where the Serbs lived, all it says is that they should continue to receive

20 aid and assistance as had previously been done in the times when the

21 country helped its underdeveloped regions. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I still have another few points with respect to Kosovo to

24 clear up, looking at the period when you yourself were president, of the

25 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that is.

Page 23993

1 Now, do you know about this, are you aware of this as a generally

2 known fact, and it relates to events taking place between the 1980s and

3 1990s, although you weren't a politician at the time: But do you know

4 that the demands for a republic, Kosovo Republic, and independence in

5 Kosovo, began as early on as 1981? There were armed conflicts that broke

6 out, and this question was always supported from some other parts of

7 Yugoslavia too; is that right?

8 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

9 Q. Now, are you aware of the fact that during that period of time

10 another thing that happened was this,: Very often the Serbs left Kosovo

11 but there were a lot of emigrants from Albania coming in at the same time?

12 A. Unfortunately, that is correct.

13 Q. And are they figures that are quite substantial?

14 A. Yes. A large number of Albanians coming into the area

15 were -- received assignments. And there are precise data that the JNA has

16 that they were secret agents and that they had their agendas to populate

17 Kosovo.

18 Q. And was this during the terrorist actions that took place?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now I'd like to look at the time after 1990.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please slow down.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Is it true that --

24 JUDGE MAY: You're asked to slow down.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'm trying to get through

Page 23994

1 as much material as possible in the time I have, but I will slow down.

2 Q. From 1990 onwards, up until 1999, the Albanians, to a large

3 extent, did not use their right to vote. They didn't go to the polls and

4 they didn't take part in parliamentary life at all.

5 A. Some smaller parties did, but they were individual cases.

6 Speaking in general terms, the Albanians did not, and I think that that

7 was a great mistake, despite the fact that the government of the Republic

8 of Serbia and its authorities tried to prevail upon them.

9 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, is it true that from 1990 onwards,

10 the Albanians did not want to negotiate anything else except their

11 independence? That was the only topic they wanted to discuss. And all

12 they wanted to discuss was the way in which they could step down from

13 Serbia, or rather, leave the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

14 A. Yes. They were the publicly proclaimed demands by their leaders

15 and political parties.

16 Q. And after 1990, did they leave -- did the Serbs continue their

17 exodus out of Kosovo?

18 A. Yes, they did.

19 Q. And was there stepped-up terrorist activity at the time?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now I'm interested in the relationship between the Yugoslav army

22 and its actions and the police during those times. You yourself were the

23 Supreme Commander of the Army of Yugoslavia. Now, when we come to crimes

24 being committed, including acts of terrorism, their uncovering and

25 prevention belongs to the -- comes under the jurisdiction of the police,

Page 23995

1 right, and not the army?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. And the army didn't involve itself in that, and you know that

4 because you were at the head of the army.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So terrorism increased. Now, was it indispensable during that

7 period of time for the army to become strengthened, reinforced, to protect

8 itself and even procure some APCs, armoured personnel carriers, for

9 example, because it was under threat?

10 A. Do you mean the Army of Yugoslavia?

11 Q. No, I mean the police.

12 A. Yes, the police.

13 Q. So you didn't involve yourself.

14 A. You used the word "army," that is why I'm asking you.

15 Q. I do apologise. Now, do you know that terrorism was stepped up

16 especially in 1995. It became stronger in 1995. Or rather, when did you

17 yourself learn of the existence of the KLA?

18 A. Well, the KLA existed in 1995 and 1996. It officially appeared

19 then in far larger numbers, but terrorist units were there all the time

20 and had mistreated equally Serbs and Albanians, who did not accept their

21 way of thinking.

22 Q. Is it true that the Army of Yugoslavia in absolute terms did not

23 have the need to involve itself up until the time when these actions and

24 operations on the part of the KLA took on an armed rebellion effect? Is

25 that right?

Page 23996

1 A. Yes. The period that you have in mind does refer to 1998 and

2 1999; that is to say, after my term of office had expired.

3 Q. Right. Up until that time, could you tell me this, please: While

4 the SFRY existed and the Yugoslav People's Army and then later on after

5 the Army of Yugoslavia had been established, did the Army of Yugoslavia

6 or, rather, the Yugoslav People's Army throughout that time have complete

7 control over the territory of Kosovo, the borders and, generally speaking,

8 control of the territory, everything that that implies?

9 A. Well, I have my own opinion, but generally speaking we did control

10 the borders, yes, we did. We could have controlled them better, but yes,

11 we did control the borders.

12 Q. At one point the borders weren't under complete control, and then

13 that was regulated too.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And a truce was signed, a cease-fire. The army withdrew, and what

16 should have happened was that a cease-fire take place, take effect. Did

17 the Yugoslav army comply?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you know that the KLA did not comply and that it continued

20 to arm itself and to return to the territory that the army had left?

21 A. The KLA armed itself in a specific way. I don't think that

22 throughout all those years they ever ceased buying and procuring better

23 and more sophisticated weapons.

24 Q. Now, tell me whether you know anything about the events that took

25 place in Racak. Did you have any information with respect to Racak?

Page 23997

1 JUDGE MAY: I really think, Mr. Tapuskovic, this isn't a matter

2 for you, with respect.

3 Now, the accused has mounted a considerable defence on this topic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree. If I could just ask

5 Mr. Lilic one more thing. I think he does have information about that and

6 ought to know. And he did speak about it during the examination-in-chief,

7 and that is this:

8 Q. Rambouillet, the negotiations at Rambouillet. Do you know, for

9 example, that the Yugoslav side, or the Serb side, whatever you like to

10 call it - because I'm afraid that whenever I say Serb side I might be

11 cautioned - that on the 16th of February for the first time they agreed to

12 the presence of international military forces on Yugoslav territory and

13 proposed a solution for Kosovo and that it be implemented by a

14 strengthened mission with five or six observers that could even be armed,

15 that that was the offer that was presented? Or don't you know? If you

16 don't, say so.

17 A. Generally speaking, when it comes to Rambouillet and everything

18 that went on there, I know about that from the press, actually, from the

19 media. I wasn't included in that whole process. But I know what you're

20 talking about and asking about.

21 Q. Do you know what requirements were made for an agreement? Was

22 there an ultimatum or not? Do you know?

23 A. First of all, I think that agreement was never achieved. That is

24 my opinion. There wasn't any proper negotiating between two sides that

25 should have negotiated. For an agreement to exist, there must have been

Page 23998

1 two sides. And something that is one-sided means that there was no

2 agreement.

3 Q. Do you know which were the preconditions in the agreement to avoid

4 the NATO shelling?

5 A. I do know very well --

6 THE INTERPRETER: No, for the shelling to stop. I'm sorry.

7 Q. The Kumanovo agreement for NATO to come to Kosovo and Metohija, or

8 rather, representatives of the international community. What did

9 Ahtisaari say if that did not happen?

10 A. I know that from some other sources, that Belgrade would be razed

11 to the ground or something to that effect.

12 Q. One more point --

13 A. But I was not involved. I learned this from others.

14 Q. Let me ask you just one more thing. It was referred to a moment

15 ago. Everything that was being done by the Army of Yugoslavia and the

16 police was designed to stop terrorism, to prevent the KLA from its

17 activities and to prevent the suffering of the civilian population

18 regardless of ethnicity. Wasn't that the gist of all those activities?

19 A. That is how it should have been, and that is how it must have

20 been. I have no reason to believe that it wasn't so.

21 Q. But that was the aim, was it not?

22 A. Yes, it was.

23 Q. Now, my last question: According to the last report of several

24 days ago, the authorities of the -- the authorities in Belgrade now, is it

25 true that since the arrival of international forces on the territory of

Page 23999

1 Kosovo, 1.194 persons were killed?

2 A. Yes. I saw that figure. I assume it is correct.

3 JUDGE MAY: This is not relevant to our case.

4 Now, let us go into re-examination. Yes.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I've finished. Thank you.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the tape that the accused would like to

7 have is one we'll apply for. And if we can get it, we'll make it

8 available to him, the tape of his wife or the person who's reported as

9 being his wife.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

11 Q. Mr. Lilic, let's deal with the airline pilots and Mladic. You'll

12 recall that on the last occasion you told us that Mladic's name was

13 associated early with Srebrenica, that you spoke to him yourself but you

14 never asked him about his involvement in it. If we look at the account

15 given in the intercepts, is this the position - help me if I've got it

16 wrong - that a deal was proposed whereby for the airline pilots, the

17 French airline pilots, being surrendered, Mladic would be free from being

18 handed over to this Tribunal for the 7.000 deaths in Srebrenica? Is that

19 what was being proposed?

20 A. I cannot give you a yes or no answer to that question. Allow me

21 to tell you what I spoke about with Mladic. In principle, the answer is

22 no, linked to Srebrenica and the 7.000 dead.

23 Q. Was there a proposal that he should not be handed over to this

24 Tribunal described in his question, you'll recall, by the accused as an

25 illegal Tribunal?

Page 24000

1 A. Without me entering into this second part of your question,

2 General Ratko Mladic, speaking to me by telephone, as can be seen from the

3 intercepts which we haven't commented on, but you can see them, and

4 especially during our conversation at Han Pijesak, when General Ratko

5 Mladic and the whole main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska were

6 present, one of the questions - and if Mr. May and Their Honours require

7 it, I can leave this document that I signed with Ratko Mladic - and the

8 demand was that no one, not just Ratko Mladic, that no one from Republika

9 Srpska would be surrendered to The Hague Tribunal. So that is true,

10 Mr. Nice.

11 Q. And at the time that that was proposed, did both you and the

12 accused support that proposal?

13 A. At the time this was proposed - and this was December 1995 - just

14 prior to the signing of the Dayton Accords in Paris, our primary goal and

15 the reason for talking to Ratko Mladic in those days was the signing of

16 the Dayton Accords in Paris. And it is true that we supported him. And

17 from the intercepts, it can be seen that even Mr. Chirac supported him in

18 a way and that such a promise should be given to Ratko Mladic for the

19 pilots to be released.

20 Q. Whatever may have been the disagreements with the Republika

21 Srpska, eventually Mladic was prevailed upon to hand over the pilots; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Mladic insisted with regard to the takeover of the pilots, and it

24 was at great pains that we managed to achieve their release, but without

25 his own goodwill this couldn't have been possible. That is quite certain

Page 24001

1 too.

2 Q. The Judges will be able to read the intercepts in full if they

3 judge it appropriate. Do you say - just help us with this - that the

4 accused was giving you instructions as president of the Federal Republic

5 or that you were giving him instructions in this matter?

6 A. With regard to this matter, the fear was that the Dayton Accords

7 would not be signed, and President Milosevic insisted that I, with

8 General Perisic -- or rather, that I should issue an order to

9 General Perisic that he try to establish the location of the pilots,

10 because we had some indications that they were in Republika Srpska.

11 Therefore, I wasn't giving instructions to President Milosevic, but he

12 obviously used his right through me and on the basis of my own

13 competencies to bring some influence to bear on the Army of Yugoslavia.

14 Q. To conclude with Mladic --

15 A. Even -- I apologise -- he was against me going to Republika

16 Srpska. It was I who insisted on going.

17 Q. And just to conclude with Mladic. He left Republika Srpska in the

18 end of 1996. Did he come to Serbia?

19 A. I don't know whether he left Republika Srpska altogether, but he

20 certainly did come to the Republic of Serbia too.

21 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... Ever institute an inquiry

22 into his well-known alleged involvement in Srebrenica?

23 A. As far as I know, no such investigation was instituted.

24 Q. He spoke and you spoke in the course of your cross-examination

25 about discipline, control, and about promotions. Will you go, please, to

Page 24002

1 tab 35 of Exhibit 469.

2 JUDGE MAY: Now, is this a new exhibit, Mr. Nice?

3 MR. NICE: This is a new exhibit, yes.

4 JUDGE MAY: Well, I'm concerned about the propriety of introducing

5 new exhibits at this stage. There's a limit to which you can

6 cross-examine your own witness. And if you've got some material which

7 contradicts him, I'm not sure it's right for you to put to him.

8 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, can we -- I'll come to it in another

9 way. And it's not contradiction, in any event, I should think.

10 Q. What I want you to help us with is this, please, Mr. Lilic, as

11 you've been telling us about promotions and the way they were organised,

12 and about the need for discipline: A man called Pandurevic --

13 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Kay, could you assist me. I am troubled, as

14 you hear, about the propriety of this method of continuing. But it may be

15 that I'm wrong.

16 MR. KAY: Your Honour, it's very difficult for us to anticipate

17 what's going to happen. And like the Court, I've been faced with a volume

18 of exhibits at a late stage that we've had to go through and try to work

19 out their relevance.

20 I don't know how my learned friend is going to approach this, but

21 it certainly is not right that new material be introduced in

22 re-examination, because the accused then would have every right to request

23 that he came back. The Prosecution have had a considerable amount of time

24 with Mr. Lilic. They've introduced a vast number of exhibits through him.

25 And it is only adding further to the materials before this -- this Court.

Page 24003

1 In many respects, if it wasn't done in direct examination, it should not

2 be introduced in re-examination.

3 JUDGE MAY: I must say that that is my feeling. There should be

4 no more evidence as a matter of principle during re-examination. The sole

5 purpose of re-examination is to -- is to clarify issues.

6 MR. NICE: Can I assist? I've made it clear that there are

7 certain witnesses whose evidence will have to be viewed cautiously, and

8 it's appropriate to call them whatever view we may take overall as to the

9 accuracy of what they say. Such witnesses are witnesses from whom the

10 Chamber will be assisted by hearing evidence on particular documents or

11 particular events. This particular event is the promotion of someone

12 post-Srebrenica who has indeed been indicted by this Tribunal in respect

13 of it. The witness has explained a great deal about promotions and about

14 the need for discipline at the invitation of the accused. And I simply

15 wish from him his observations on how this particular promotion occurred.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MAY: We shall exclude this document. The reason is this:

18 That there has to be a termination in the production of evidence. If we

19 allow this sort of evidence in, then the accused must be given the

20 opportunity to cross-examine, which means we never finish. The

21 Prosecution must produce their evidence during the direct or

22 evidence-in-chief. Thereafter, there will be only in the most exceptional

23 circumstances - and this isn't one - in which additional material is

24 allowed. I suggest that we return these files. We'll consider it in a

25 moment. Most of it is untranslated of the new material --

Page 24004












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 24005

1 MR. NICE: Well, that is all -- I explained, we haven't had it --

2 JUDGE MAY: I know. But I'm just dealing with the position as it

3 is at the moment. I think the new material is, if you look at the index,

4 is 37 -- as I understand it, 37 to 46 is the material of notes and the

5 like?

6 MR. NICE: No, it's 39, I think you'll find.

7 JUDGE MAY: 39. Yes, quite right.

8 MR. NICE: 46 is the new material. 34 to 38 -- sorry, is the new

9 material that's the form of stenographic notes or meeting notes. And the

10 other material is -- is all new.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 MR. NICE: So I'll proceed on that basis. And if I wish to seek

13 to persuade you to the contrary in respect of an individual exhibit, I

14 will. But I can cover the matter without looking at the exhibits, in any

15 event.

16 Q. In light of what you've told us about discipline and promotions

17 and -- no, I'll move on to another topic. It's probably easier. I've got

18 plenty to cover.

19 Intelligence; you've told us a great deal about the intelligence

20 you received and in fact received for Kosovo, and the accused received.

21 Did you have intelligence sources available to you throughout your

22 presidency, Mr. Lilic?

23 A. I don't know which specific service you're referring to. If

24 you're talking about military intelligence services, the security

25 administration, or the second administration of the Army of Yugoslavia,

Page 24006

1 depending on the event, yes; the answer is yes. Not reports from the

2 state security service of the Republic of Serbia.

3 Q. In your judgement and knowledge, were you kept as informed of all

4 matters as the accused, or did he have access to more intelligence or less

5 intelligence than you?

6 A. He certainly had more and better information, certainly more

7 detailed information.

8 Q. Did your intelligence include in his reporting back from embassies

9 around the world?

10 A. Yes, that information mainly gathered in the Ministry of Foreign

11 Affairs, in a service which is also of an intelligence nature; it's called

12 a service for information and documentation. And most of that information

13 certainly reached the federal authorities. I don't believe that all of

14 them were accessible. That certainly depended on the Minister of Foreign

15 Affairs. He was the one who could select information and reports.

16 Q. Despite this range of information, is this right: You didn't

17 receive any intelligence on Srebrenica, on what actually happened at the

18 massacre? Is that right?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. And you've denied, at the request of -- or the question of the

21 accused, the existence of any of the detention camps spoken of by

22 Ambassador Galbraith and indeed subject of others, NGOs we know coming to

23 you. Did you visit the areas said to be detention camps yourself or not?

24 A. I didn't visit them. And according to my information, no such

25 camps existed. I can't visit something that our services claim did not

Page 24007

1 exist.

2 Q. Do you allow of the possibility that you may have been kept from

3 information of this kind or not, or don't you know?

4 A. First of all, I absolutely do not believe that there were any

5 camps in the territory of the Republic of Serbia.

6 Q. You said that the accused had more intelligence or information

7 than yourself.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you're pretty close to cross-examining

9 just then. Be careful.

10 MR. NICE:

11 Q. I'll just turn to another topic. And we can now look at an

12 existing exhibit, which is 469, tab 20, but the other part of tab 20 from

13 that that we've been looking at before. It's the meeting on the 25th of

14 August of 1995. We looked at it before. It's the Dobanovci meeting. And

15 in the English version, it's page 11; and in the -- let's find it. In the

16 B/C/S version, Mr. Lilic, I think it comes on page -- I think it comes on

17 page 14 at the top right.

18 At the conclusion of a reported intervention by Bishop Irinej, we

19 see this passage: "He agreed with" - this is the bishop - "President

20 Milosevic's view according to which solutions not recognising Republika

21 Srpska will be refused. That is why he supports the views already stated

22 in favour of one generally binding decision to serve the interest of the

23 entire Serbian people. That is why we must overcome all of difficulties,

24 get the most favourable solution for the position of the Serbian people.

25 Bishop Irinej advocated the tacit lifting of the Drina River blockade.

Page 24008

1 President Milosevic responded that the blockade was merely a formality and

2 that aid flows daily." Would that recall the reality of the blockade,

3 Mr. Lilic?

4 A. The border was never hermetically tight. There are daily reports

5 of the federal customs administration about the minimum quantities that

6 were sent there to satisfy the needs of the population in terms of food

7 and so on. So such a report can be found at the customs service. So it

8 was never closed tight, the border.

9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, on this --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The customs, of course, controlled

11 what was crossing the border.

12 MR. NICE: Your Honour --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, Mr. Nice, I think that

14 such a report exists among the documents, a report by Mr. Kertes, a daily

15 report of this kind.

16 MR. NICE: Your Honour, on this one, in light of what the accused

17 was specifically putting to the witness about the blockade, I would have

18 invited the Court to consider a clip of an interview, a statement by the

19 accused himself, but I'm in your hands as to whether -- it would be very

20 short -- as to whether that would be an exception to the approach you've

21 taken.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MAY: No. We think not.

24 MR. NICE: I'll move on to something else.

25 JUDGE MAY: I'm not able to find that last passage.

Page 24009

1 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry. It's on --

2 JUDGE MAY: Tab 20 --

3 MR. NICE: Tab 20. It's the 25th of August. There are two parts

4 to tab 20. And it's on your page 11, and it's not under the quotation of

5 the accused. It's under the quotation of Bishop Irinej from the previous

6 page, and it's about just under halfway down.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I have it. Thank you.

8 MR. NICE: I'm sorry not to have made that clear.

9 Q. Can we look at one part of the latest document -- two parts,

10 actually, that have been produced by the accused. And before I forget to

11 deal with them, one's in Exhibit 41, if the Court would be so good, and

12 that is the small passage that had already been translated of these

13 stenographic notes of the meetings of the Council for Harmonisation.

14 Now, this is from the 9th of January of 1993, Mr. Lilic. Just

15 remind us, if you can - and we can help you with frontline maps if you

16 would like - but what percentage of Bosnia was held by Serbs at the end of

17 1992, beginning of 1993?

18 A. That was the time when negotiations were underway on the

19 Vance-Owen Plan. And I think the percentage was about between 76 and 80

20 per cent, but certainly over 75 per cent.

21 Q. So that what we see the accused saying here is that what was then

22 held de facto should be obtained by de jure, and he's suggested to you

23 that "small labyrinth" meant by negotiations, and you accepted that, do

24 you?

25 A. I tried to explain that the last time, I think, that this de jure

Page 24010

1 confirms what existed once the Vance-Owen Plan is accepted, because

2 otherwise it would lead to a new war. The attempt to retain 76 per cent

3 of the total territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina certainly could not lead to

4 peace. It is the quickest way to a new war in the territory of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina.

6 JUDGE MAY: No. Mr. Milosevic, you've already had your chance to

7 examine.

8 MR. NICE: Let me come back to Exhibit 39, please, which is --

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection to the question,

10 not the answer of the witness. I'm sorry, Mr. Nice -- I object to

11 Mr. Nice's question, not the answer of the witness.

12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Well, we've passed on.

13 Yes.

14 MR. NICE:

15 Q. Exhibit 39 is the other January 1993 extract which was read, but

16 it was only read in part by the accused. I make no complaint. He just

17 didn't turn the page, at least in the English version.

18 And if the witness can just have that in front of him, he'll see

19 the extracted passage in the English translation. We saw that

20 Zivota Panic was saying - this is the foot of your page 1 of the English

21 translation - "we help as much as we can regarding manpower. The army

22 shouldn't be going into foreign territory, but we should find volunteers,

23 people who would save that part of the territory, that is, prevent the

24 linking with Sandzak and via Rudo and all the underlying elements referred

25 to here." And then over the page in the English version: "That is where

Page 24011

1 you should do everything possible. Bring in the army, which is to be

2 highly disciplined in their assignments. I will not go into the problems,

3 but it must be done, even if the price is execution."

4 JUDGE KWON: I think that is page 33 to 34 in the Serbian version.

5 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes, it is. And I think it's been

6 separately extracted for -- if not, I'm very sorry, Mr. Lilic.

7 JUDGE KWON: I note he's looking for it.

8 MR. NICE: Yes, I'm so sorry.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Thank you very much.

10 MR. NICE:

11 Q. Now, in light of all you said about the army not going in - and

12 you've agreed with the accused on all of that - can you help us with that

13 part of the quotation that the accused didn't take you to?

14 A. I don't know exactly which part of the quotation you're referring

15 to, Mr. Nice.

16 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... The army going in, which

17 is to be highly disciplined of -- "this is where you should do everything;

18 bring in the army which is to be highly disciplined in their assignments.

19 I will not go into the problems, but it must be done, even if the price is

20 execution." I wonder if you could help us with that part of

21 General Panic's quotation.

22 A. It is difficult to explain him in the way it is stated here. Does

23 he refer to troops in the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

24 which have to be very disciplined? And who is he addressing at this point

25 in time, Mr. Zivota Panic? Is he addressing somebody from the FRY or

Page 24012

1 somebody else from Republika Srpska, which is for me the key issue.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- Your Honours,

3 Witness Lilic has been explaining so far to the effect that that is what

4 the note says. Up to now he hasn't interpreted anybody's quotations. I

5 think he shouldn't be asked to interpret what is said. Up to now, he has

6 just been confirming that what is written here is correct, or rather, that

7 that is what is written here.

8 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... by interpretation,

9 he can be asked, if he can assist.

10 MR. NICE: We'll have to take it as stated for the time being.

11 Q. Staying with the army, Mr. Lilic, before I forget, the accused,

12 and indeed Mr. Tapuskovic, asked you a number of questions about how you

13 were the commander-in-chief. Now, of course you understand - and we can't

14 look at the evidence for various reasons - that allegations may be made

15 out here by the Judges in due course that the army was involved. For the

16 period of your presidency, please help us: Who was in a position to

17 control or influence the army so that it might be involved in Bosnia?

18 A. I have answered that question several times, and I continue to

19 claim that there was a never decision of the Supreme Defence Council for

20 regular units of the Army of Yugoslavia to join in combat operations in

21 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, particularly no larger units. I

22 explained how volunteers took part. Now, whether anyone else gave orders

23 of that kind, that could have only come from General Perisic, and I really

24 am not aware of that, so I continue to claim that no such decision

25 existed, no such order. Should Perisic have accepted such an order and

Page 24013

1 implemented, it could have come from President Milosevic. It would have

2 been completely unlawful. It could have come from President Bulatovic.

3 That would have also been unlawful. So the only person who could issue

4 orders with respect to the Army of Yugoslavia is the president of the

5 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and only in accordance with the Federal

6 Defence Council, which meant that the other two presidents would be aware

7 of it.

8 Q. We've heard about the Red Berets. Can you help us. Were they

9 military, paramilitary, or police?

10 A. The Red Berets were not within the Army of Yugoslavia. They were

11 officially formed in 1996. You see that in the document on their

12 formation, in Kula. But they are a typically military formation, as they

13 had all the weapons required for intensive anti-terrorist combat, and they

14 were within the Department of State Security.

15 Q. Because -- if you remember, you may help the Judges with this:

16 You deny that there was any militarisation of the police and yet you're

17 saying that the Red Berets were really within the State Security and

18 you've described them as military equipment.

19 A. No, Mr. Nice, I didn't deny that there was militarisation of the

20 police. I said that within the frameworks of the police there were two

21 specific units from the first day of their inception. So they weren't

22 formed after I had come. They had -- they were already in existence in

23 the police. The SJO and the SAJ, so both of them were anti-terrorist.

24 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that you've seen the videotape of the

25 celebration at Kula in May 1997?

Page 24014

1 A. Yes, I have seen it.

2 Q. You weren't present. Were you even invited?

3 A. No, I wasn't invited in May -- I wasn't in Kula in May 1997.

4 Q. On paramilitaries, you say very recently to the accused that there

5 was an order to stop them at the end of 1993. Is that right?

6 A. Yes, that is a decision of the Supreme Defence Council, and an

7 order issued on the basis of that to General Perisic, that all

8 paramilitary units be recorded, lists made of them, and practically done

9 away with, however you'd like to put it.

10 Q. No -- was there no earlier order to impede the paramilitaries

11 before the end of 1993?

12 A. We are talking about 1993, Mr. Nice. This is 1993.

13 Q. There was an earlier order than that order that came at the end of

14 1993?

15 A. I don't remember one.

16 Q. Well, can you help us: Were paramilitaries - because you've been

17 asked about this - were paramilitaries being tolerated then until then?

18 A. Well, you can use that type of qualification, but in principle

19 they were volunteer units which were not on the territory of the Federal

20 Republic of Yugoslavia at all.

21 Q. Last question on the Red Berets: Who was the political commander

22 of the Red Berets?

23 A. Ah, the head of state security administration was Mr. Stanisic,

24 within whose department that unit was, if that is what you mean. If you

25 mean subordination with respect to the chain of command and responsibility

Page 24015

1 at the level of the police, and indirectly, Mr. Milosevic.

2 Q. The --

3 A. In view of the constitutional rights vested as president of

4 Serbia, the command of the armed forces in peacetime and wartime, which is

5 not sufficiently clear when it comes to the federal constitution, but that

6 is what the constitution of Serbia states.

7 Q. You were asked about the condemnation of the bombing of Sarajevo

8 in 1995. Who was doing the bombing?

9 A. You mean airstrikes or artillery?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Airstrikes were conducted by the NATO pact forces, including Serb

12 positions. Whereas, artillery fire was opened from the Serb positions at

13 Sarajevo.

14 Q. As to the Serb side attacks, had they been condemned before that

15 date or not?

16 A. On our side, they were constantly condemned; that is to say, the

17 attacks on Sarajevo. But you can see the pressure there was because after

18 the meeting on the 13th and the 29th of August, on the 30th of August Serb

19 positions were intensely bombed and so were towns in the Sarajevo

20 municipalities as well. And despite that, the leadership of Republika

21 Srpska did not agree to pull out the forces, and later on it did under the

22 impact of the NATO bombings.

23 Q. The Supreme Defence Council minutes are documents we hope in due

24 course to see, Mr. Lilic. You said that everything was done by consensus.

25 Can you help us just with the position of somebody called Boro Ivanovic.

Page 24016

1 Do you remember any dealings with him?

2 A. Boro Jovanovic, you mean?

3 Q. Yes, in the SDC.

4 A. Probably Bora Ivanovic. Bora Ivanovic was a general in the Army

5 of Yugoslavia who was commander of the Novi Sad Corps. You mean him?

6 Q. Was his promotion dealt with within the SDC? And if so, was that

7 dealt with by consensus or not? Dismissal, I'm sorry, not promotion.

8 Dismissal.

9 A. Boro Ivanovic, at the request of the personnel and chief of the

10 general staff was -- a request was sent to the Supreme Defence Council and

11 the Supreme Defence Council discussed the matter. As it said in the

12 report by the senior officers of the general staff, unlawful handling of

13 stockpiles of weapons of the Army of Yugoslavia, or rather, giving them

14 over to Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina in part. And in the

15 second half, for some criminal offences, criminal acts. And there was

16 more to support the latter. So the request by the general staff was that

17 Bore Ivanovic should be brought up before a military disciplinary court

18 and disciplinary proceedings taken against him for General Ivanovic to be

19 replaced as commander of the Novi Sad Corps. The Supreme Defence Council

20 did discuss the issue. There were different views put forward.

21 Mr. Milosevic thought that he ought to remain in place. I personally went

22 to the corps and talked to the officers of the Novi Sad Corps. They were

23 opposed to having General Ivanovic returned to his post. My proposal was

24 that he should not be returned to his post, and then a different solution

25 was found, that is, that Mr. Ivanovic should not return to take up his

Page 24017

1 post as commander of the Novi Sad Corps but that he shouldn't be taken to

2 court either, which was the proposal that came from Mr. Milosevic, so that

3 I used my right pursuant to the law with respect to acquitting him of any

4 guilt. But there were different opinions put forward, yes.

5 MR. NICE: Again, the Chamber will have that --

6 A. But General Jovanovic [as interpreted] was pensioned off later on,

7 and this -- the lawsuit was interrupted.

8 Q. A matter of detail that may help us on the notes and coordination

9 that we've got. We've got some of them in stenographic form and two of

10 them we've got in minute form only. Just answer this question, please,

11 yes or no: Are you aware as to whether they are all, in fact, in

12 existence in stenographic form?

13 A. Whether all of them? You mean all the minutes from the Supreme

14 Defence Council meetings? Is that what you mean, Mr. Nice?

15 Q. Not the Supreme Defence Council, the coordination council

16 meetings. Sorry, I came back to that. It's unhelpful of me to have

17 swapped topics but I meant to ask you this earlier. The minutes, we have

18 minutes only, not stenographic notes, for two of the meetings.

19 A. The state council.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I can't say with certainty, but the stenographic notes should be

22 in existence with respect to their importance and all the rest of it. I'm

23 sure they do exist.

24 Q. Just answer this yes or no: Insofar as there's any shortfall in

25 the provision of stenographic notes of any of them, as opposed to minute

Page 24018

1 notes, are you in a position to assist identifying where any of them may

2 be found? Just yes or no. Or if you don't want to answer, say you don't

3 want to answer.

4 A. Well, it's difficult. I don't think I can be of assistance to you

5 in finding them. I don't know how you mean, actually.

6 Q. One last question.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I see the time.

8 Q. It's an existing exhibit, and it's Exhibit 389, tab 46.

9 JUDGE KWON: 387?

10 MR. NICE: Sorry, 387.

11 Q. You've answered several questions about the performance of police

12 and army in Kosovo. And here is a document dated the 25th of May of 1999.

13 If you go down to paragraph 3, in a document that comes from General

14 Pavkovic, you see the following passages set out. The Chamber will

15 probably find its memory revived by reading them. Line 3 of paragraph 3,

16 Mr. Lilic: "... where there are frequent altercations because MUP members

17 condone or openly permit evident criminal activities and plunder committed

18 by their fellow MUP members as well as civilians resulting in the

19 misappropriation of a vast amount of motor vehicles, technical goods and

20 other resources from the territory of Kosovo and Metohija."

21 Then in paragraph 4: "It has been established beyond doubt, and

22 we have already reported on it in regular combat and other reports, that

23 due to the non-compliance with the resubordination orders, some MUP

24 members and to a considerable extent entire smaller units, which 'operate'

25 independently on the ground are committing serious crimes against the

Page 24019

1 Siptar civilian population in settlements or refugee shelters - murder,

2 rape, plunder, robbery, aggravated theft --" sorry, "aggravated robbery,

3 theft, et cetera, and then purposefully attribute or plan to attribute

4 these crimes to units and individuals in the VJ."

5 And then at the foot of the document, under "Measures Proposed:"

6 "In light of the above-said, and particularly the consequences already in

7 evidence, which could, however, become much more important, the Supreme

8 Command should take urgent measures falling within its jurisdiction to

9 resubordinate the units and organs of the MUP..."

10 Does that account of the crimes being committed accord with your

11 experience and understanding?

12 A. This report is one which Mr. Pavkovic wrote during the war. May

13 1999 is the date. I can only assume that after this a series of steps

14 were taken. If they weren't, then this is -- he should be held

15 accountable in another fashion. I don't know about these things, as after

16 1998 I had nothing much to do with Kosovo and Metohija. But this all took

17 place during the war, so I assume that the Supreme Command did take

18 certain steps and measures. I don't know what effect these cautions had,

19 but they come under his jurisdiction and I'm sure he took steps himself,

20 because during the the war the Army of Yugoslavia -- it was the police

21 unit that was practically to all intents and purposes in command.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The army commanded the police units.

23 Interpreter's correction.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But at any rate, these events should

25 be condemned and criminal liability should follow. If not, then the

Page 24020

1 responsibility lies on the people who knew about it and failed to take

2 action.


4 Q. Have you any reason to doubt Mr. -- Or General Pavkovic's account?

5 A. No, absolutely not.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I see the time. There's one more

7 exhibited I wanted to put to the witness, a previous exhibit. I haven't

8 yet identified it correctly. I've lost my note.

9 JUDGE MAY: We have five minutes left, no more.

10 MR. NICE: Just give me one minute, Your Honour.

11 If I can't find it, I can't find it. Oh, yes. I have found it.

12 Q. Tab 4 -- Exhibit 427, tab 54, please. This is an exhibit you've

13 seen before. And again, I think all I need do is revive your memories of

14 it.

15 Just to help you, Mr. Lilic, it's Mladic speaking at the 50th

16 national assembly held on 16th of April, 1995 in Sanski Most. And in the

17 English version, it's at page 17 right at the bottom. In the B/C/S

18 version, it is, I think, on page 42. I'll ask for my colleagues to

19 confirm that. And it may be a speech with which you are yourself

20 familiar.

21 And the question is this, really, Mr. Lilic: You've spoken about

22 whether there was direct support provided by the republic to Bosnia and

23 given a number of answers about that. If we look at this quoted part of

24 Mladic's speech. I'm picking it up from a place that says, "Ever since

25 FRY imposed the blockade on RS on the 4th of August, 1994." - I don't know

Page 24021

1 if you can find that - "needs of the RS army for fuel and ammunition could

2 hardly be met".

3 Then the next paragraph, "Even though the government has issued

4 guidelines which regulate imports of goods for the army, there have been

5 cases where procedure was ignored."

6 The next paragraph begins like this, "As an illustration, Mladic

7 gave the following consumption review from the beginning of the war until

8 the 31st of December, 1994. 9.000-odd tonnes of infantry ammunition

9 consumed, 1.49 per cent of which was self-produced, 42 per cent from

10 supplies the VRS inherited and found within in the former JNA barracks.

11 47.2 per cent provided by the Yugoslav army.

12 Then two lines down: "As for artillery ammunition, summarising

13 it, 34 per cent provided by the Yugoslav army.

14 "As for anti-aircraft ammunition," two lines down, "52 per cent

15 provided by the Yugoslav army." And then further on, "115.644 tonnes have

16 been consumed out of which 23 per cent was provided by Yugoslavia."

17 Does that reflect the reality of the support that was being given

18 to General Mladic?

19 A. I really don't know on the basis of which General Mladic compiled

20 this report. The quantities presented here are so large that I personally

21 don't believe that the percentage written here as to the assistance of the

22 Yugoslav army on the basis of what it was given. General Mladic is a

23 little bit of a sensationalist and perhaps wanted to make a bigger

24 impression over there.

25 On the other hand, if we take into account the fact that, for

Page 24022

1 example, just for 79 days of NATO campaign 20.000 tonnes of bombs were

2 thrown, then these 9.000 tonnes of ammunition for four years of war

3 doesn't seem to be a very large figure. But I said in explaining these

4 figures that I see here that the overall resources that were left from the

5 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina are considerably greater than

6 the figures presented here by General Mladic. Now, how far they are

7 correct, I really can't say. I still maintain that this quantity of

8 weapons, military materiel, and ammunition had no reason to leave the

9 warehouses of the Army of Yugoslavia in respect of the effectives and

10 resources they had in the BH and were in the depots of the Territorial

11 Defence, which actually came over to the Republika Srpska and the other

12 side got its weapons from other sources. So I don't need -- you don't

13 need me to tell you about them here.

14 Q. My last question -- literally my last question is this: If it is

15 in due course found that there was provision of those materials, whether

16 in those proportions or quantities precisely or not, by the Army of

17 Yugoslavia, who's responsible? Who bears the responsibility for

18 authorising that provision? Is it you as the commander-in-chief or was it

19 anybody else?

20 A. This amount, this quantity of weapons and military materiel, I

21 have no reason to doubt this report by General Mladic. The responsibility

22 had to be on the part of the federal government. Not even the Supreme

23 Defence Council could have made a decision of this kind, because

24 these -- this is materiel owned by the Army of Yugoslavia. And as the

25 federal government owns that, then it is the Defence Ministry in this

Page 24023












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 24024

1 case. That would be better put that way.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll deal with the exhibits now. Exhibit 469,

3 we will admit tabs 39 to 46. We will exclude the remainder of these

4 bundles, tabs 34 to 50. And I'm going to hand them back, since they're

5 untranslated and documents which will not assist us.

6 Could you -- if the registry would kindly take them back, please.

7 MR. NICE: We've obviously given what priority we can to the

8 translation department --


10 MR. NICE: -- To get those documents produced. We'll certainly

11 notify you when they're available.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, you can provide them.

13 I'm going to deal -- before I've thanked the witness, I'm just

14 going to deal with one other ruling and that is for the statements of

15 witnesses C-1050, 1129, and 1194. We've been considering their

16 admissibility under Rule 92 bis. We're satisfied they're cumulative, not

17 concerned with the acts and conduct of the accused. They will be admitted

18 under the rule, but they do relate to a live issue concerning the nature

19 of the activities of the JNA and other paramilitary groups, and therefore

20 those witnesses must attend for cross-examination.

21 Mr. Lilic, that does conclude your evidence. Thank you for coming

22 to the Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

Page 24025

1 at 2.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

2 the 10th day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.