Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24509

1 Wednesday, 16 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, you're going to deal with these

6 statements, so I understand it.

7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MAY: The first thing we need to do is to decide on a

9 procedure. Your intention, as I understand it, was to call these

10 witnesses in the next two weeks.

11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we're faced with some logistical

12 problems, and in order to ensure that we were able to fill the Court's

13 schedule for the remaining weeks, I had asked that the decision on these

14 nine witnesses be expedited. Some of the logistical problems have been

15 solved. There still may be the possibility of smaller gaps, but it is not

16 as urgent as I first believed last week.

17 JUDGE MAY: If we heard the argument now and gave a decision next

18 Tuesday, is that going to present any problems to you?

19 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. That's what we'll do.

21 We've got the nine witnesses we have to deal with. And taking

22 them in the order which you set out in your annex, there are five for

23 which you concede that cross-examination is appropriate, beginning with

24 1750. There's no concession there. This is -- deals with deportation and

25 forced labour and destruction of cultural property in Bijeljina. Yes. Is

Page 24510

1 there anything you want to say about that one?

2 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. I would just note that upon further

3 reflection and another reading of the statements, there are really only

4 two witnesses who the Prosecution would be proposing that they should be

5 -- their evidence should be taken without cross-examination. B1750, as

6 well as a number of other witnesses, or most of the other witnesses, the

7 Prosecution would concede that a -- a live issue is raised and that it

8 would be appropriate for the witnesses to be called for cross-examination.

9 The only exception to those seven witnesses would be Witness 1488.

10 That witness the Prosecution would also concede that under the Appeals

11 Chamber's analysis in Galic, that that witness probably also speaks to

12 some evidence that would be considered proximate to the accused, and in

13 the case of that witness, the Prosecution would be requesting that the

14 statement be accepted under 92 bis and that the Prosecution only lead that

15 portion of the evidence which would be considered proximate.

16 JUDGE MAY: So 1488 you would be calling some evidence live.

17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MAY: And what's the position about 1750?

19 MR. GROOME: The position of the Prosecution, Your Honour, is that

20 it is not proximate to the acts and conduct of the accused. The amici,

21 through Mr. Kay, have agreed to that, or put the same position forward.

22 The Prosecution does concede that a live -- a substantive reference to the

23 JNA is made in that statement and it is appropriate that the witness be

24 called for cross-examination.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. 1524 seems to be the next on the list.

Page 24511

1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that is one of the witnesses that the

2 Prosecution submits that -- I'm sorry, I withdraw that. That is one of

3 the witnesses who I had originally submitted cross-examination was not

4 necessary in the 92 bis, but upon a more careful reading of the statement

5 and further analysis about the importance of the evidence to the entire

6 case, I would concede that that -- cross-examination is appropriate in

7 that -- in the case of that witness.

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. 1460, you've conceded some

9 cross-examination.

10 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

11 I would note that the Prosecution's position, and in concurrence

12 with the amici's position, is that it's not proximate to the acts and

13 conduct of the accused. It is cumulative of two witnesses that have

14 testified, B-1455 and B-1146.

15 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. 1516?

16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this is one of the witnesses who the

17 Prosecution submits that cross-examination is not necessary. This

18 witness's testimony is -- or evidence is cumulative of the testimony of

19 B-1416. It does not go to the acts or conduct of the accused. There is

20 no reference to the JNA but for the presence of a JNA sitting on a bridge

21 in March of 1992. It is the Prosecution's position that this is such a de

22 minimis reference to the JNA that even though it is a reference, it does

23 not raise a live issue in the case, and therefore cross-examination is not

24 warranted.

25 JUDGE MAY: 1097 and 1704, both of them you've conceded

Page 24512

1 cross-examination.

2 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MAY: Anything to add about them?

4 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: 1010?

6 MR. GROOME: This is the other witness who the Prosecution submits

7 cross-examination is not warranted. This witness was cumulative of

8 B-1701. If the Chamber recall, 1701 testified about events in Bratunac,

9 and there was extensive cross-examination regarding whether the people who

10 the witness claimed or said were in JNA uniforms were in fact really JNA.

11 The accused had a full opportunity to cross-examine him on that.

12 This witness's testimony is essentially the same, except that this

13 witness says that though the -- although the people were in JNA uniforms,

14 he did not believe that they were active JNA members.

15 JUDGE MAY: But he described some of them, I think, as local

16 Serbs, at one stage.

17 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

18 So it does not appear that producing this witness for

19 cross-examination will -- The statement taken at face value suggests what

20 the -- the point that the accused made with B-1701. The Prosecution will

21 be introducing other evidence of people in a better position to know the

22 true identity of the people involved in the takeover of Bratunac, so the

23 Prosecution would submit that it is not necessary under 92 bis for this

24 witness to be called for cross-examination.

25 JUDGE MAY: This is the -- the Glogova incident, the massacre, as

Page 24513

1 it's said?

2 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MAY: A large number of people. But we have had witnesses

4 about -- we've had this witness who gave evidence about the execution on

5 the river bank.

6 MR. GROOME: That was 1701. And again, he testified about seeing

7 men in JNA uniforms. The accused challenged that. It is unlikely that

8 this particular witness can advance that point any further. And as I've

9 said, the Prosecution plans to call at least one witness who will be able

10 to -- will be available for both examination-in-chief and

11 cross-examination on this issue and is in a better position to know who

12 was present.

13 JUDGE MAY: And I think that leaves 1502, and you concede again

14 cross-examination there.

15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much.

17 Mr. Kay, in those circumstances, is there anything you want to --

18 to add?

19 MR. KAY: No, Your Honour. The amici have put in a detailed

20 filing of the arguments upon the matter. Obviously the Prosecution have

21 had time to reflect on their initial motion and submission and have

22 conceded the cross-examination issue on a major part of those witnesses.

23 Those that they don't concede cross-examination upon, there's nothing

24 further for me to add because the material is already within that filing.

25 And as I have identified in our reply, those witnesses were cumulative of

Page 24514

1 other evidence.

2 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

3 Mr. Milosevic, do you want to say anything about these particular

4 witnesses? Any argument you want to address on that?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nothing specific, except that in

6 their case too we are confronted with the same problem and that is

7 limiting the possibility of establishing the truth and of cross-examining

8 the witnesses, shortening the time with 92 bis witnesses, protected

9 witnesses, and a series of other points that I have already raised which

10 apply to this group of witnesses as well.

11 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll consider the matter. We'll give our

12 ruling on Tuesday, when we next sit.

13 Yes. Yes, Mr. McKeon.

14 MR. McKEON: Yes, Your Honour, the first witness being brought in

15 this morning is Mr. Emil Cakalic.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cakalic, would you take the declaration, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 WITNESS: EMIL CAKALIC

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Examined by Mr. McKeon:

25 Q. Would you please state your full name.

Page 24515

1 A. Emil Cakalic.

2 Q. And Mr. Cakalic, did you previously testify here at the Tribunal

3 in the case of Prosecutor versus Slavko Dokmanovic?

4 A. I did.

5 MR. McKEON: Your Honours, I would like to offer the transcript of

6 the witness's testimony from that trial into evidence under Rule 92 bis

7 (D).

8 JUDGE MAY: We've got here what seems to be a bundle of his papers

9 or a bundle of exhibits; is that right?

10 Are you asking to have anything more than the transcript admitted

11 at the moment?

12 MR. McKEON: Yes, Your Honour. We're asking for also the exhibits

13 found at tab 2, which were Exhibits 51, 52, and 53, tendered during his

14 testimony. I will not be asking him any questions about those this

15 morning, however.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will give it a single exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Prosecution Exhibit 504.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. McKEON:

20 Q. Mr. Cakalic, I'm going to summarise now the testimony that you

21 gave on that previous occasion. I'll interrupt that summary on a few

22 occasions to ask you some questions about areas that weren't covered in

23 your previous testimony.

24 MR. McKEON: The witness is a Croatian man who was 57 years old at

25 the time of the events in question. During the battle for Vukovar, his

Page 24516

1 job was to ensure good quality drinking water for the population and army

2 and hygienically correct food for the Croatian army and police.

3 On the 17th of November, 1991, the witness learned that units of

4 the Yugoslav army and paramilitary units had boarded inhabitants from the

5 street in which he lived in personnel carriers and taken them away. The

6 witness and his wife decided to abandon their home and go to the Vukovar

7 hospital.

8 On 20 November 1991, at about 7.30 or 8.00 in the morning, all

9 employees of the hospital were called to a meeting. All others who were

10 not employed in the hospital were asked to leave through emergency ward

11 doors. There were about 250 people gathered there. There were two

12 soldiers there, including one named Pero, that the witness later saw when

13 he was being taken from Vukovar to Sremska Mitrovica. This soldier, Pero,

14 was cursing them and said that he would kill all of them if there were not

15 prisoners in Croatian hands who were members of his army.

16 There were five busses outside the hospital. After being searched

17 and having anything dangerous taken away, JNA soldiers ordered them to get

18 on the busses. They drove to the military barracks in Vukovar. There

19 soldiers and people identified by the witness as Chetniks mistreated them

20 psychologically, saying things like, "I'm going to slaughter you," or,

21 "I'm going to cut your throat." The busses stayed at the barracks until

22 approximately 2.00 in the afternoon.

23 From there they went to Ovcara. They were met at Ovcara by a

24 captain of the Yugoslav army. After the captain took personal possessions

25 from them, including the witness's eyeglasses, which were smashed,

Page 24517

1 everyone on the busses had to pass between two rows of these Chetniks, who

2 beat everyone, including Dr. Bosanac's father-in-law, who was over 70 at

3 the time.

4 Inside the hangar, the beatings intensified. The witness himself

5 was beaten with a wooden crutch, causing serious injury to his vertebrae.

6 The witness saw two men beaten so badly in the hangar that they were

7 killed.

8 Inside the hangar, a man appeared, strong, big, with a large cap

9 and a big cockade on it. He was with a major who was being called Major

10 Milan Lukic. The major wanted to use an electric baton on the prisoners,

11 but the other man warned him not to do that because there were too many

12 witnesses. After Ovcara, the witness saw this same major in Negoslavci,

13 when this major was escorting the witness's convoy from Vukovar to Sremska

14 Mitrovica.

15 After some time, a man dressed in a JNA uniform called the witness

16 outside of the hangar. There were seven people gathered there. The

17 beatings continued inside the hangar, but outside the witness saw the

18 soldiers who had escorted them in the busses looking for money. After

19 some time, the witness was called back into the hangar where a colonel and

20 two lieutenant colonels took down his particulars. He was then put into a

21 kombi van and driven away.

22 From Ovcara, the witness was taken to the Velepromet in Vukovar.

23 There was no room there, so they were transferred to a privately owned

24 tailoring company called Modateks. Several of the people he was being

25 held with were beaten, and one sergeant major threatened to have a man

Page 24518

1 named Topola burn out the eyes of one of the prisoners with a cigarette

2 butt.

3 I'd like to jump to paragraph 13 of the summary, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Cakalic, the people who were beating the prisoners at

5 Modateks, could you tell, based on the uniforms they were wearing, whether

6 these were JNA soldiers, or were they something else?

7 A. They were JNA soldiers.

8 Q. And this person that was referred to, Topola, who they threatened

9 to use to burn out the eyes of the prisoners with a cigarette butt, did

10 you see Topola at Ovcara before you arrived at the Modateks?

11 A. Yes, at Ovcara.

12 MR. McKEON: Returning to the summary, Your Honour, paragraph 8.

13 The witness remained at Modateks until the 21st, when he was taken

14 back on foot to the Velepromet warehouse. At the Velepromet, everything

15 the witness had was taken away from him. He was taken into a room called

16 the room of death. During that night, several people were taken away from

17 this room and never returned.

18 Your Honour, moving to paragraph 14 of the proofing summary.

19 Q. Sir, could you tell the Court how many people were taken out of

20 the room of death, beaten, and never heard from again?

21 A. Six people.

22 Q. And, sir, were you able to actually hear the beatings that took

23 place and the conversations that took place outside of this room? And if

24 so, could you tell the Court what you heard.

25 A. When they took out a graduate agricultural engineer, the director

Page 24519

1 of the Vukovar slaughterhouse, he was called out and he was taken outside.

2 This room, this room of death, had a window with bars, or rather, just

3 bars without glass so that we could hear what was being said. They

4 interrogated him where the meat was, where the wheat was, and then a blow

5 could be heard, probably on his head, and then everything stopped. He was

6 exhumed later on.

7 Q. Could you tell us, sir, about one prisoner who was brought back

8 into the room of death, after being questioned, with cigarette burns on

9 his body. Could you tell the Court about that, please.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat --

11 A. Wilhelm Karlovic is his name. He's now still in the Croatian

12 army. He has the rank of major. He was taken out twice and brought back.

13 On his body, they would extinguish their cigarettes.

14 Q. Could you -- when he came back into the room, could you see the

15 marks on his body where the cigarettes were extinguished?

16 A. Yes. Only on a part of his body, because he was wearing clothes.

17 He was stripped and they made these cigarette burns all over his body, but

18 then he put on his clothes, so we only saw them on his arms.

19 Q. Were there JNA soldiers present at this room of death? And if so,

20 approximately how many?

21 A. There were three of them that I saw.

22 Q. In addition to the JNA soldiers, were there any of these people

23 that you've referred to as Chetniks?

24 A. Yes, there were. There are some people from Vukovar that I knew,

25 that I had collaborated with. For instance, Zarko Leskovac, who had hand

Page 24520

1 grenades on his chest and automatic rifle. He was always tipsy. He would

2 demand that the door be opened of the room of death. He would leave, and

3 then after that certain people would be called out, some of whom never

4 returned.

5 Q. You said that he would call to have the door opened to the room of

6 death. Who was it that could actually open that room? Who had the key to

7 that room?

8 A. One of those soldiers.

9 Q. When you say "soldiers," are you referring to JNA soldiers or

10 someone else?

11 A. The soldiers of the JNA, yes. That's how they introduced

12 themselves. That is what they said they were, special policemen in the

13 Yugoslav army, military policemen.

14 Q. And this Topola that you said was at Ovcara, did you also see him

15 at the Velepromet?

16 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. First of all, I saw him at Ovcara and

17 later on at the Velepromet.

18 MR. McKEON: Your Honours, returning to the proofing summary,

19 paragraph 10.

20 During the night, a captain of the counterintelligence service

21 came and took the witness and others to the JNA barracks because he said

22 that if he didn't do this, the Chetniks would kill them all. As it came

23 closer to morning, military policemen arrived and they began to beat

24 individuals there. One man had his hands tied and was made to swallow two

25 or three bullets.

Page 24521

1 Question from paragraph 15 of the summary:

2 Q. Could you tell the Court who it was that was beating the prisoners

3 at the JNA barracks.

4 A. The Muslims had declared themselves as being Muslims, and the

5 soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army. So they were military policemen

6 too of the Yugoslav People's Army.

7 MR. McKEON: Turning to paragraph 11 of the proofing summary.

8 As morning dawned, a soldier arrived and introduced himself as

9 Captain Vojin Mesic, a Serb from Negoslavci. After dividing the Serbs

10 from the Croats, this captain turned to the Croats and said, "Listen, we

11 are going to kill all of you. We are going to burn you and throw your

12 ashes into the Danube to destroy your Croat seed." The witness and the

13 others were put on a bus and shipped to Sremska Mitrovica in Serbia,

14 stopping in Negoslavci along the way.

15 And a question from paragraph 16 about this stop in Negoslavci:

16 Sir, this JNA major that you saw at Ovcara, the one who threatened to use

17 an electric baton and was called by the name of Milan Lukic, did you see

18 this major again at Negoslavci?

19 A. Yes, I did see him in Negoslavci; however, they didn't call him

20 Lukic; they called him Ivanovic there.

21 Q. And --

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. McKeon, would you clarify one thing before we go

23 any further. The reference to the Muslims who were doing the beating at

24 the JNA barracks. It may be clear to some, but it's not clear what that

25 is a reference to.

Page 24522

1 MR. McKEON:

2 Q. Mr. Cakalic, at the JNA barracks, you referred to Muslims who did

3 some of the beatings at the JNA barracks. Could you tell us what military

4 organisation, if any, these Muslims were affiliated with and how it is

5 that you concluded that they were Muslims.

6 A. There were both Muslims and Serbs, but these said for themselves

7 that they were Muslims.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Who were they? What were they doing in the

9 barracks? Could you just explain that.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were stationed there, and they

11 were military policemen of the Yugoslav People's Army.

12 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

13 MR. McKEON:

14 Q. Returning for a moment to Negoslavci, when you saw this major.

15 Did you overhear what his job was in the JNA and why he was at Negoslavci?

16 A. There was a whole convoy, in fact, and they were driving. There

17 were tanks in front, where there were some doctors in the tanks. And he

18 was escorting, one of the escorts of the convoy.

19 MR. McKEON: Returning to the proofing summary, paragraph 12.

20 Upon the witness's arrival at Sremska Mitrovica, he was

21 interrogated by Boro Savic and Goran Hadzic, and while in Sremska

22 Mitrovica the witness was beaten severely and suffered serious injuries.

23 That is the end of the summary, Your Honour. I have just a few

24 additional questions about Sremska Mitrovica covered in paragraphs 17, 18,

25 and 19 of the proofing summary.

Page 24523

1 Q. Mr. Cakalic, upon your arrival at Sremska Mitrovica, did you have

2 to pass through a double row of military police officers similar to the

3 cordon that you had to go through at Ovcara?

4 A. Yes. It was -- we had to run the gauntlet and there were a lot of

5 them. There are three steps up and three steps down through a metal door

6 that you have to go through, and they were lined up, the blue policemen,

7 with their batons and clubs. And they were standing about 3 to 4 metres

8 apart, and everybody beat us any way they could until we arrived in the

9 playground, where they lined us up and asked us what our names were, what

10 we did, and anything we did, they said we'd been doing the wrong things,

11 "You were a baker, you baked bread. You were a cobbler, you repaired

12 shoes." And we were beaten up very badly there.

13 There was a Muslim there who was doing the beating along with a

14 Serb, and I heard him say, "Yes, I'm a Muslim, but I'm a member of the

15 Yugoslav People's Army." And the other one said, "I'm a Serb."

16 And there were 37 of us, I think, there and there were about 50 of

17 the policemen there, maybe more, I couldn't count them all. But they all

18 beat us after these two. And we had to lie down on the ground, and they

19 beat us one by one. It was absolutely unbelievable. People fell down,

20 they couldn't get up afterwards. When they did manage to get up, they

21 would fall to the ground again. It was absolutely terrible. Many of them

22 lay there unconscious. I, too, was badly beaten. They especially liked

23 to beat us on the head and neck, where it's most sensitive, because you

24 have your central nervous system going down your backbone and spine, so

25 they had probably received instructions that that's where they were to

Page 24524

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Page 24525

1 beat us, and they did it well.

2 Q. And during these beatings, did you see a prisoner beaten to death?

3 A. Yes, I did. That was a little later on. The beating went on two

4 more times, and then towards night they wanted to take us into the rooms,

5 10 by 10, approximately. Suddenly there was some confusion, and I saw

6 them kill Niko Soljic. Some 15 to 20 minutes later, they brought in a

7 coffin, put him inside the coffin, and drove him away, killed.

8 Q. Sir, approximately how many times were you personally beaten at

9 Sremska Mitrovica?

10 A. I counted up to 20 times and ...

11 Q. And you referred to being questioned at one point by Boro Savic

12 and Goran Hadzic. At the time that you were being questioned by them, did

13 you recognise another man from Vukovar standing there carrying a baseball

14 bat? And if so, who was that?

15 A. He was a judge in the Vukovar court, and his name was Branko

16 Kovacevic. He stood guard by the door for Goran Hadzic and Boro Savic.

17 Q. Could you tell us, please, who it was that ran this prison at

18 Sremska Mitrovica?

19 A. Most probably it was a colonel, but anyway, it was the Yugoslav

20 People's Army that had control of the prison.

21 Q. And did local non-JNA paramilitaries ever come into this prison?

22 And if so, when would they come in, in general?

23 A. It was the Vukovar men who would usually turn up, usually on a

24 Saturday and Sunday, when the army wasn't there. And then they would call

25 people out and take them off, individuals from the camp. They would take

Page 24526

1 them into rooms, put socks on their heads so that people couldn't

2 recognise them, and then proceeded to beat those people.

3 MR. McKEON: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour. That's all the

4 questions that I have for this witness.

5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

6 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cakalic, did you or were you in any way

9 involved in the Croatian National Guards corps in Vukovar?

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. In what capacity?

12 A. I was a sanitary inspector in Vukovar, and I saw that there were

13 problems with water supplies and food supplies, and I volunteered and went

14 to the defence office on the 15th of June. I reported there and said that

15 as a professional I'd be happy to do that job for the Croatian army, for

16 the police, and for all the citizens of Vukovar.

17 Q. You say you never had any -- actually, you were involved in the

18 ZNG but you had no post or position within the organisation, did you?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. All right. Thank you. As you controlled the food, among other

21 things, you did food inspection - and I can see from the statement that

22 you gave to the representative of the MUP of Croatia in May 1992 that you

23 inspected the food in Dunav and the Gradiska Kafana and some other

24 facilities.

25 A. Yes. Yes, and others too. I don't know whether you know the

Page 24527

1 Grand building in Vukovar. It's the workers centre.

2 Q. All right. So you conducted the food inspection.

3 A. Yes, except in Borovo Naselje.

4 Q. All right. Except in Borovo Naselje. Right.

5 Now, how many meals did you have to inspect per day?

6 A. Well, I had a system. I devised a system by which all the

7 employees working there - there were Croatian ladies and Serbian ladies

8 and Muslim ladies - and I required that they disinfect all the cutlery and

9 glasses and cups and the dishes in which food was transported to the

10 battlefield. And each of them had to eat that food before they sent it on

11 to the soldiers, and they did eat it.

12 Q. All right. So as you sent food to the battlefield, how many

13 people were these meals prepared for?

14 A. Well, transport was something else. Other people dealt with that.

15 This was just the preparation, the cooking of food, whereas the transport

16 was conducted in special vehicles by other people.

17 Q. All right. So if you controlled all this and inspected it all,

18 you can't actually tell us of the quantity of food and for how many people

19 the food was being cooked for.

20 A. I really couldn't say.

21 Q. Well, as I understand it, before the war, before the conflict

22 broke out, you also worked in the municipality of Vukovar as head of the

23 sanitary inspection team.

24 A. I wasn't the chief, the boss; I was a sanitary inspector.

25 Q. Right. That means you were an employee of the Vukovar

Page 24528

1 municipality; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you remember when in July 1991 there was a decree disbanding

4 the Municipal Assembly of Vukovar, which had been regularly elected at the

5 free elections which were held, when the others were there, and that the

6 then-president was suspended? His name was Slavko Dokmanovic, wasn't it,

7 and he was the mayor or president of the municipal assembly.

8 A. He continued to work, and I cooperated with him.

9 Q. Yes. And as a commissioner of the Croatian government, it was

10 Marin Vidic, Bili, who was appointed.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So he took over the role of president of the municipality.

13 A. He was a representative of the government of the Republic of

14 Croatia for the municipality of Vukovar. That's what his post was called,

15 his position. But I can tell you that after the situation in Borovo Selo,

16 when those 13 policemen were killed over there, representatives of the

17 International Red Cross arrived, and I think it was Dr. Nicholson, along

18 with the president of the Yugoslav Red Cross and the president of the

19 Croatian Red Cross, and I think we went to Borovo because that

20 representative of the International Red Cross wanted to see what the

21 situation was like for himself and what had happened there. And we were

22 driven there in armoured cars. But after some time had gone by, a former

23 policemen turned up. I knew him well, I was on good terms, and he said,

24 "Emil, get away from here as quick as you can. Leave here, leave this

25 place."

Page 24529

1 Q. And what was the point of that, of what you're saying? There were

2 civilians over there.

3 A. There were Chetniks and there were also several members, as far as

4 I was able to see, about ten of them in fact, with some strange caps on

5 their heads, and they were about 50 to 60 metres away from us and they

6 would run across from one side of the road to the other, probably to

7 instil fear in us, so that we thought there were more of them than there

8 actually were.

9 Q. How many do you mean strange caps?

10 A. Well, Chetnik caps.

11 Q. So they weren't members of the JNA.

12 A. Well, Mr. Markovic was there at a rally, the president of

13 Yugoslavia, I mean, and he attended a rally where there were members of

14 the Yugoslav People's Army before that.

15 Q. Do you mean Ante Markovic? Is that who you mean? And he was the

16 Prime Minister of the federal government, as you know, and as you know he

17 was a Croat himself.

18 A. Yes, I know all that.

19 Q. Well, when the Prime Minister of the federal government comes to

20 any place, you would have the citizens rally.

21 A. Well, I don't know that it was always like that. I myself didn't

22 go.

23 Q. Well, you could have gone if you wanted to.

24 A. But luckily, I wasn't there.

25 Q. All right, fine. Not to dwell on that for too long. Tell me,

Page 24530

1 please: As you were an employee of the municipality yourself, I'm sure

2 you know that Marin Vidic, Bili -- you knew him personally, as I

3 understand it.

4 A. Yes, we collaborated.

5 Q. All right. Then you knew him personally and cooperated. I'm sure

6 you will know, then, that in the second half of May already in 1990 in the

7 area of Lovas.

8 A. That's his native village

9 Q. I see, his native village. Anyway, he formed a military

10 organisation within the HDZ party and divided it up into the technical

11 service, at whose head we had Ivo Madzarevic, and the military service --

12 JUDGE MAY: Let's see if the witness knows anything about any of

13 this.

14 Mr. Cakalic, do you know anything about any of this that's being

15 alleged by the accused?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm hearing this for the first time

17 now.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have never heard of that before.

20 JUDGE MAY: No point going into detail about that. He doesn't

21 know anything about it.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I expected you to interrupt

23 me, although the witness said that he knew him well, Marin Vidic and

24 cooperated with him --

25 JUDGE MAY: Then there was no need to ask the question if you were

Page 24531

1 expecting interruption. Let's move on.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you've been misled.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So you don't know about that?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm going to ask the

6 witness something now. Vukovar isn't a large town, you know, and I'm

7 going to ask him whether he knew Marin Vidic. And as you can see, he

8 knows where he was born, and it was the village of Lovas, and he knew

9 about Lovas in 1990. And I have here a court document from the military

10 court in Belgrade and --

11 JUDGE MAY: This has nothing to do --

12 Do you know anything about the military court in Belgrade,

13 Mr. Cakalic? Of course he doesn't. It's nothing to do with the witness.

14 Now, if you want to get some evidence in about Mr. Vidic, Bili,

15 then you can try later, but there's no point abusing the process by

16 putting something to a witness which he knows nothing about.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I really believe that the

18 witness doesn't know anything about the military court in Belgrade. And

19 indeed I'm not asking him about the military court in Belgrade. I'm

20 asking him about something that has to do with a document of the military

21 court in Belgrade and I'm asking him whether he knows about the events

22 referred to there. And I imagine I should not be forbidden to ask him

23 questions about what he himself had said --

24 JUDGE MAY: You can put the matter, put it shortly, and we'll see

25 if the witness knows anything about it, what the allegation is. You can

Page 24532

1 certainly put that from the document you have.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Have you heard of Ivo Madzarevic and did you know him?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you know Markica Gracanac?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you know Franjo Mujic, at least, who was in charge of this

9 medical service? Because you are from that line of work.

10 A. In Lovas?

11 Q. Franjo Mujic, Branko Krizmanic, do you know any of them?

12 A. No.

13 Q. None of them?

14 A. No, not by their name or surnames. Perhaps I know them by sight.

15 Q. Do you know anything about the organisation of this armed

16 formation within the HDZ as far back as 1990 in Lovas?

17 A. I first heard of it from you just now.

18 Q. All right. Do you know anything about the collection of money to

19 buy weapons then, that is to say, as far back as 1990?

20 A. Everybody bought weapons for themselves.

21 Q. Oh, nothing was collected. Everybody bought their own weapons?

22 A. Everybody bought their own weapons. Who wanted to buy a rifle,

23 brought his own rifle. You know that the entire civilian defence had been

24 disarmed and the Secretariat of National Defence, with all their weapons,

25 all of that was disarmed.

Page 24533

1 Q. What was the price of an automatic rifle at that time? Do you

2 remember?

3 A. Well, at first it cost about 2.000 Deutschmark, afterwards 1.000

4 Deutschmark, and then 500 Deutschmark, and afterwards you could get them

5 for free.

6 Q. I assume hat you did not buy a rifle.

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 Q. That was not your activity?

9 A. No, it wasn't.

10 Q. And those people who were buying rifles, who were they buying them

11 from?

12 A. From smugglers.

13 Q. And who was involved in the organisation of this armed smuggling;

14 a person you know from the territory of the municipality?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. All right. Do you remember -- I mean, I assume that you know

17 Tomislav Mercep.

18 A. I do him know.

19 Q. He was Secretary for National Defence in the municipality of

20 Vukovar?

21 A. Yes, he was.

22 Q. He was appointed precisely by Marin Vidic, Bili, when he took over

23 as representative of the Croatian government in Vukovar. He was the one

24 who appointed him chief of National Defence; is that right?

25 A. I don't know whether Vidic appointed him, but he was head of

Page 24534

1 National Defence.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Well, this is the first time I hear that Vidic appointed him.

4 Q. Do you know that he was involved in the formation of precisely

5 those military units, those military units that were within the HDZ?

6 A. As for that question, I could not answer it, because it wasn't

7 formation within the HDZ. It was within the defence department.

8 Q. Tell me, please: Did you know Josip Gazo?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. What did he do?

11 A. He was -- when I came from camp, I found him in Zagreb. And he

12 was chief of police when I was in Zagreb then, after being in camp.

13 Q. Do you remember within that organisation, that is to say, Marin

14 Vidic, Tomislav Mercep, this chief of police you mentioned just now, and

15 so on and so forth, do you remember what happened in terms of the

16 activities that directly threatened the safety of persons and property?

17 A. This chief of police was not in Vukovar. He was chief of police

18 when the entire government was moved to Vukovar.

19 THE INTERPRETER: To Zagreb, interpreter's correction.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Do you know anything about Mercep's activities? This had to do

22 with the fact that many Serbs went missing or were killed in Vukovar

23 before these operations.

24 A. This is the first time that I hear that Serbs were killed in

25 Vukovar. This is the first time I ever hear of this.

Page 24535

1 Q. All right, Mr. Cakalic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since this is a court document, can

3 I have it exhibited? Because obviously the witness recognises some of the

4 persons mentioned in this document.

5 JUDGE MAY: It's nothing to do with the witness, absolutely

6 nothing to do with him at all. The fact that he's heard of somebody

7 mentioned in a document is not a ground for exhibiting it.

8 Yes, let's move on.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what is going on here has

10 nothing to do with me either, but here I am, and I'm carrying out these

11 activities that really have nothing to do with me whatsoever. But if you

12 believe that this has nothing to do with the witness --

13 JUDGE MAY: Just get on with it. If you have any questions for

14 the witness, or we'll let him go.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Do you remember at least the following: That on the 3rd of

17 September, 1991 a decision was reached precisely in the municipality of

18 Vukovar and precisely by Mercep and precisely by Vidic ordering the

19 directors of Electroslavonija, the water supply company, and the PTT to

20 cut off electricity, water, and telephone from the military barracks?

21 A. Would you tell me the date, please? I haven't remembered --

22 Q. The 3rd of September, 1991.

23 A. At that time, Mercep was no longer in Vukovar.

24 Q. I'm talking about these people who headed the service, the people

25 he appointed. Rimac Vlado headed the technical service and Gazo Josip

Page 24536

1 headed the military service. Stipan Radas. Do you remember?

2 A. Obviously you got something confused there, sir. After the month

3 of September -- rather, after the month of August, Mercep was not in

4 Vukovar any more at all. He was transferred to Vukovar.

5 THE INTERPRETER: To Zagreb, interpreter's correction.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And Dedakovic, Mile Dedakovic,

7 Colonel Dedakovic took over the Defence.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I'm talking about the people he appointed. Do you know Vlado

10 Rimac, Gazo Josip, and Stipan Radas?

11 A. I know Gazo Josip.

12 Q. Do you know that this decision was reached on the 3rd of

13 September? I'm talking about these people here appointed. And Mercep was

14 with John Tuzaga [phoen] precisely at the request of Marin Vidic because

15 he had committed crimes there.

16 A. No, that's not the reason for that.

17 Q. Do you have the letter that Marin Vidic wrote to Tudjman about

18 this?

19 A. I don't have that letter. But I'll tell you one thing: Mercep

20 was not a military man. He was not an expert in these matters. He was an

21 engineer. It was Dedakovic who was a military man.

22 Q. All right. But I'm asking you whether you know about this

23 decision of the 3rd of September -- or rather, this order that was issued

24 to the director of Electroslavonija, that is the power supply company in

25 Vukovar, is that right, and the water supply company, and the PTT to have

Page 24537

1 electricity, water, and telephone lines cut off from the military

2 barracks.

3 A. When the entire population had their electricity, power, et cetera

4 cut off, that is when this happened to the military barracks too.

5 Q. Which date was this?

6 A. I don't remember the exact date. I think it was sometime in the

7 second half of September, something like that, around the second half of

8 the month of September.

9 Q. All right. Is it correct that precisely then this Mile Dedakovic,

10 Jastreb, with the so-called active service of the ZNG surrounded the

11 Vukovar military barracks and started the blockade of the barracks and

12 started opening fire at the barracks?

13 A. The barracks was being surrendered. I don't know whether you know

14 about that. They had a white flag put up.

15 Q. And what happened before this white flag was put up?

16 A. Agreement.

17 Q. There was no blockade, no gunfire, no shooting, nothing?

18 A. It was agreed upon that no problems should be made, otherwise this

19 barracks should not be surrendered. And these barracks could have fallen

20 very easily, however, obviously orders had come from someone in Belgrade

21 that the barracks should not be surrendered.

22 Q. So the barracks was supposed to be surrendered and then --

23 A. Like all others in Croatia. Like all others in Croatia that were

24 being surrendered.

25 Q. All right. And then orders came from someone in Belgrade that

Page 24538

1 they should not be surrendered, and then --

2 A. Well, from Belgrade or from Negoslavci, I don't know about that,

3 but obviously somebody sent an order to that effect.

4 Q. All right, Mr. Cakalic. Let's just clarify this matter: You

5 claim that there was no blockade, no shooting at the barracks, that a

6 white flag was put up and that the barracks was supposed to be surrendered

7 and that the fighting started later.

8 A. I was not present there, so I cannot tell you exactly.

9 Q. All right. Do you know about the order? Because it was issued to

10 all office-holders in Vukovar, and you were sanitary inspector there. And

11 this was done as far back as the 8th of September, 1991, that is to say,

12 being on the ready, taking measures for readiness at the first degree,

13 second degree, third level, rather, of the readiness. The third level of

14 readiness restricts the movement of citizens in terms of time, and certain

15 units are activated and so on and so forth.

16 Were you made aware of this order? There is a series of persons

17 here who signed their names stating that they were familiarised with the

18 order. This probably doesn't include your signature, but maybe you could

19 recognise some of the other people. This is an order issued by Marin

20 Vidic, Bili. This is the original language and could you just take a look

21 at this and see whether you know any of the signators of this document.

22 A. Yes, I'll take a look.

23 As for these signatures, I could not decipher them.

24 Q. All right.

25 JUDGE MAY: Just have a look at the document. Mr. Cakalic, do you

Page 24539

1 recognise the document itself? Do you know what it is?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's a logical document. A

3 certain government authority drafted this and warned all citizens of

4 Vukovar that their movement is being restricted because Vukovar was being

5 shelled and bombed all the time, and it was logical. All people were made

6 aware of this. It's not only Croats; it's the entire population of

7 Vukovar that was made aware of this. I don't know whether you know that

8 Vukovar had 25 different ethnic groups amongst its population and town.

9 Most of them were Croats, then Serbs, then all the rest. This is quite

10 logical. Immediate preparations should be carried out in order to --

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I understand all of this. Just look at the date, please.

13 A. The 8th of September.

14 Q. When was Vukovar bombed?

15 A. Well, I don't know the exact date when it was bombed, but I was in

16 town. I went to inspect food at the workers centre and at the hotel, and

17 that's when aircraft were flying and gunning the town.

18 Q. Gunning what?

19 A. Gunning down the citizens of Vukovar.

20 Q. Aircraft were flying and shooting at the 27 different ethnic

21 groups of Vukovar?

22 A. You didn't understand me or you don't want to understand me. The

23 airplanes of your state that often came to Vukovar during the day and

24 during the night shot at the population. Did you understand me now?

25 Q. I understand. But when was this, sir?

Page 24540

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Page 24541

1 A. I don't know the date. From the month of September onwards, that

2 happened every day. As a matter of fact, they even threw poison.

3 Q. All right, Mr. Cakalic. But at that time, it was my state and

4 your state too. It wasn't only mine.

5 A. The referendum had already taken place, and it was your state, and

6 I don't know who would attack his own state, and you were attacking it

7 then, and I don't know who would attack his own state.

8 JUDGE MAY: Did you see the aircraft shooting people, Mr. Cakalic,

9 yourself?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.

11 JUDGE MAY: On one occasion or more than one occasion?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was repeated almost every day,

13 until the fall of Vukovar.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. All right. You cannot say when this happened.

16 A. Well, let's say it started around the month of September. I

17 cannot tell you exactly. It's not that I --

18 Q. All right. All right.

19 A. I really cannot give you the exact date. Far be it --

20 Q. And do you know that as early as February 1991, that is to say,

21 half a year or perhaps more than half a year before there was any kind of

22 unrest or any kind of conflicts in Vukovar, at a meeting of the HDZ in

23 Cerpinska Cest [phoen] and Borovo Naselje a decision was passed to

24 ethnically cleanse Serbs in the territory of the municipality of Vukovar?

25 Do you know anything about that?

Page 24542

1 A. No. I did not belong to that political party.

2 Q. Did Mercep -- is Mercep from Bogdanovci?

3 A. Yes, but I think he lived in Vukovar.

4 Q. But he did have a house in Bogdanovci?

5 A. Yes, he did, he and his brothers, yes.

6 Q. You don't know anything about the meeting held in that house in

7 Bogdanovci? At that time, Vladimir Seks was there, Ivan Vekic --

8 JUDGE MAY: Now, this is a waste of time, a total waste of time.

9 You have now spent at least, if not over, half your time without asking

10 this witness a single question about his evidence. He has narrated

11 serious matters which happened to him and not a word of it have you

12 challenged. If you're challenging it, you should do so now instead of

13 dealing with matters which are totally irrelevant.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll hurry up, and I understand that

15 you find all of this irrelevant, Mr. May.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, I do. In particular with this witness who knows

17 nothing about it but who's come here to give serious evidence which you're

18 refusing to cross-examine for some reason.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not refusing to cross-examine

20 him at all, Mr. May. I'm not refusing to cross-examine him about his

21 evidence but first I'm putting questions to him that have to do with the

22 situation in Vukovar the time that his statement refers to, and these are

23 circumstances under which all of this happened, and I believe all of this

24 is relevant, as opposed to you.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 24543

1 Q. Do you know --

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name.

3 A. No.

4 Q. And do you know the name of Cibaric Nikola, nicknamed Sipka

5 [phoen]?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know Sipos Zoran?

8 A. Not Sipos, but Cibaric I knew, and I still know him.

9 Q. Do you know that during the war operations that there was a

10 shelter at the Borovo factory and it was called Novo Bucara [phoen]?

11 A. No. Commerc.

12 Q. There was a shelter in the Borovo factory by that name?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know, for example, that this Cibaric Nikola from this

15 shelter and this other man who you don't know, that they took Serbs out of

16 this shelter, liquidated them, shot them dead?

17 A. This is the first time I hear of this.

18 Q. I have a minute -- a document here, minutes of the information

19 received, and it refers to Novo Bucara?

20 JUDGE MAY: He knows nothing about this, so move on.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So that cannot be tendered either.

22 Very well, Mr. May, we'll move on.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So you don't know anything about specifically on the 14th in 1991

25 people were taken out of this shelter and executed?

Page 24544

1 JUDGE MAY: If you continue with these questions, the

2 cross-examination will be brought to an end. You've been told that he

3 knows nothing about it. It's irrelevant to him, irrelevant to us now.

4 Now, move on.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. As you were a sanitary inspector, are you aware of Marin Vidic's

8 decision from September 1991 that the bodies of JNA soldiers should not be

9 buried in Vukovar but that they should be burned?

10 A. I'm not even aware of those bodies.

11 Q. Very well. Mr. Cakalic, you and your wife arrived at the Vukovar

12 hospital on the 17th of November; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At 2300 hours?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. On page 3, paragraph 2, you say that most Croats from your

17 building went to the hospital and that all the Serbs and one Ukrainian

18 remained in their apartments; is that right?

19 A. Yes. But they were with us all the time.

20 Q. But as you yourself say, Vukovar was endangered by shelling; is

21 that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Shells don't choose whether they will hit a Serb, a Ukrainian, or

24 a Croat, I assume.

25 A. Yes. There was a Serb to kill me -- he was assigned the task of

Page 24545

1 killing me, and he was killed by his own shell. He didn't know this could

2 happen.

3 Q. I'm just saying that you were threatened by shells used to bomb

4 Vukovar, and the Croats went to seek shelter in the hospitals, whereas

5 those same shells did not endanger the Serbs.

6 A. That day there was very little shooting, and when my wife and I --

7 I don't know whether you're familiar with Vukovar --

8 Q. No, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, I was never there.

9 A. We were walking and they were shooting, sir, shooting. You

10 understand? I was driving a wounded man the day before to the hospital.

11 He had been wounded. And on my way back, they started shooting at me. I

12 switched off the lights and moved to the side, and there were bullets

13 whizzing by. You have no idea how it was. And this was coming from the

14 right bank of the Danube.

15 Q. Yes, I understand. But let us cover these questions quickly,

16 because my time is limited. Do you have any explanation for the fact that

17 the Serbs did not seek shelter in the hospital? Was the hospital

18 accessible only to Croats as shelter or to everyone?

19 A. No. They were safe. They had been informed what would happen and

20 how it would happen. And let me tell you that when we were taken to

21 Ovcara they didn't even check the identity of people and they even killed

22 some Serbs.

23 Q. I'll come to that in a moment. Just tell me, please: You are not

24 linking this failure of the Serbs being admitted to the hospital with a

25 position of the director of the hospital, Vesna Bosanac.

Page 24546

1 A. No, that has nothing to do with it.

2 Q. In the second paragraph, page 4, you say that in the hospital you

3 saw Marin Vidic, the government representative for Vukovar.

4 A. Yes. And I was close by when Major Sljivancanin arrested him.

5 Q. And tell me, when did a JNA officer enter the hospital for the

6 first time?

7 A. Then, when Marin was arrested.

8 Q. And you claim it was Major Sljivancanin, and he was accompanied by

9 a warrant officer whose name was Bogdan Kuzmic.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was he a reservist, a member of the TO?

12 A. He used to be the porter at the hospital.

13 Q. Let us not waste time. I assume you know that a lieutenant in the

14 JNA has to be a graduate of the military academy. So he couldn't have

15 been a porter at the hospital.

16 A. But you interrupted me. I was just going to say that. He was the

17 porter at the hospital, the receptionist. He was escorting Major

18 Sljivancanin when Vukovar was surrendered, when Vidic was arrested. I

19 heard later on that he was taken to Belgrade for additional training to

20 the military academy.

21 Q. That's something else. If he wanted to become an active officer

22 later on. But in those days, he was a member of the TO of Vukovar, and he

23 was Major Sljivancanin's guide because he used to work as a receptionist

24 in the hospital.

25 A. Sir, no. He was wearing the uniform of the JNA with the ranks

Page 24547

1 that I have mentioned.

2 Q. But the Territorial Defence wore the same, or maybe you don't know

3 that.

4 On page 5 of your statement, you say that it became immediately

5 clear to you that Sljivancanin was in charge of the operation.

6 A. Perhaps you were in charge of it; I don't know.

7 Q. Tell me, what kind of operation was Sljivancanin carrying out?

8 A. The arrest of Marin Vidic at 00 hours on the 19th. And then I saw

9 him again on the 19th around 7.00, 7.30 maybe, or 7.00 roughly, him and

10 Radic.

11 Q. Very well. Is it true that his behaviour was correct and that he

12 didn't resort to any kind of violence?

13 A. Yes, it was correct. What I was able to see when he arrested

14 Vidic and when he took him away from the hospital, yes. I don't know what

15 happened afterwards.

16 Q. Vidic was later taken to the investigating court?

17 A. Yes, we met again in Mitrovica.

18 Q. So you didn't see any other JNA members on that occasion.

19 A. I said that I saw Captain --

20 Q. Oh, this receptionist.

21 A. No, no, Captain Radic.

22 Q. Very well. And is it true that Dr. Ivankovac and Dr. Matos on the

23 20th of November informed you that all persons without official IDs have

24 to leave the hospital?

25 A. Yes. Vesna Bosanac and some others informed us.

Page 24548

1 Q. And that they would be transferred in a convoy; is that right?

2 A. They didn't tell us where we would be transferred. However, I

3 know where I was transferred, and you do too probably, and many others.

4 My wife was also taken to Sremska Mitrovica and then returned to Croatia

5 later.

6 Q. Tell me, please: Do you know who Dr. Vladimir Emedi is? Is he a

7 doctor at the Vukovar hospital?

8 A. Yes, an orthopaedic surgeon.

9 Q. And tell me, please: In view of the fact that before the 17th of

10 November, 1991, as you yourself say, you did go to the hospital, didn't

11 you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see in it armed members of the ZNG, and how many of them?

14 A. No one. I didn't see anyone armed in the hospital.

15 Q. And this doctor that you say you knew, Vladimir Emedi --

16 A. I still know him.

17 Q. Very well. Said in his statement that Dr. Vesna Bosanac was --

18 JUDGE MAY: No. You can put some fact which this witness might

19 know about, but he doesn't know about the statement of some other witness

20 that you may have had or some statement that you've got. What is -- what

21 is the allegation that you want to put? We'll see if this witness can

22 deal with it.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you know that members of the National Guards Corps, with the

25 permission of the director of the hospital, Vesna Bosanac, were staying at

Page 24549

1 the hospital, climbed to the roof of the hospital, from which they opened

2 fire on JNA positions, on aircraft of the JNA, et cetera? Do you know

3 about that?

4 A. And what were those aircraft doing in Vukovar? Shelling the

5 hospital? Do you know that?

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cakalic, if you could just concentrate on the

7 question.

8 When are you saying this happened, Mr. Milosevic? When is it that

9 you say the ZNG were firing from the roof of the hospital?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Throughout that period, up until the

11 fall of Vukovar -- after the fall of Vukovar.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cakalic, did you see anything like that yourself?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, it was impossible to climb to

14 the roof of the hospital, because the hospital had already received a

15 couple of shells. A 250-kilogramme bomb had fallen through the second,

16 first floor and the ground floor and fell between the legs of a wounded

17 man, and it didn't go off. Who would have dared to climb onto the roof of

18 the hospital in those days? That is unbelievable. I hear that for the

19 first time.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I hear what you are saying for the first time too, but I have

22 information that from the roof of the hospital fire was opened on planes.

23 JUDGE MAY: No. He's denied it. He has denied it, so let's not

24 waste further time on it.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 24550

1 Q. So you're claiming you didn't see any members of the ZNG within

2 the hospital.

3 A. You asked me on the hospital.

4 Q. Well, you didn't climb to the roof.

5 A. You're asking me whether I saw them on the roof, whether they were

6 members of the ZNG firing at Serbs.

7 Q. Did you see them in the hospital?

8 A. I was in the hospital for only three days.

9 Q. Did you see members of the ZNG?

10 A. No, not a single one. No.

11 Q. And did you recognise a certain number who had put on hospital

12 uniforms that did not belong to the hospital?

13 A. Yes, I did recognise them. Do you know how I recognised them? In

14 the busses. They were wearing white coats and they were all killed

15 straight away.

16 Q. Those who were wearing white coats and who were not hospital

17 staff.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. After you left the hospital and went into the yard, you say you

20 noticed two soldiers, one whose name was Pero from Bosnia and another one

21 who was a Muslim; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you know them from before?

24 A. No. I saw them for the first time on that occasion. But they

25 were polite young men who cursed us from the very beginning.

Page 24551

1 Q. Very well. Since you didn't know them from before, how did you

2 know who was who, who's a Serb, who's a Muslim, and so on? They were

3 soldiers.

4 A. This Pero escorted us in the convoy from Vukovar to Sremska

5 Mitrovica.

6 Q. So in the bus you said that next to you was Tomislav Pap; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Sitting next to you.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was this the person who, following Vidic's instructions, was

12 burning the bodies of killed JNA soldiers?

13 A. Sir, I never heard of the burning of corpses in Vukovar.

14 Q. Fine. If you don't know about it, we'll move on.

15 On page 7, you say that you were taken from the hospital to the

16 barracks compound, where, as you say - and you mentioned that again a

17 moment ago - you were insulted, threatened --

18 A. Not just me; everyone was.

19 Q. You said by some Chetniks of Montenegrin ethnicity; is that what

20 you said?

21 A. I don't know what ethnicity they were. They wore those little red

22 caps with fringes. Where are they from? Are they from Bosnia? Are they

23 from Montenegro? Are they from Serbia? Are they from Croatia? I don't

24 know.

25 Q. Those red caps with fringes are not worn in Serbia but in some

Page 24552

1 parts of Croatia they are.

2 A. Yes, they're the caps worn in Lika, but that's something else.

3 Q. But the Montenegrin one doesn't have these fringes. And is it

4 true that you recognised some other people in the barracks, some local

5 Serbs from Vukovar?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you had known them before the war too.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And from there you were transferred to Ovcara; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I won't ask you anything about the glasses. You mentioned a

12 captain -- so as not to waste time on that.

13 In 1993, you gave a statement to -- I think it was a lady, Kim

14 Carter, something like that.

15 A. Yes. She's a colonel of the Canadian army.

16 Q. I see.

17 A. And she is a member of the Council of the International Court, I

18 think she was. And also present was a gentleman, the pathologist who

19 discovered Ovcara. I can't remember his surname now.

20 Q. Never mind. Let's not waste time. This is quite a lengthy

21 statement and --

22 A. His name was Snow Clyde, I just remembered, the pathologist's

23 name.

24 Q. You mentioned this captain on page 38 who was trying on glasses,

25 et cetera, and you say he was a captain by rank. And then you say,

Page 24553

1 "Probably a reservist."

2 A. I didn't know whether he was active duty or a reservist.

3 Probably.

4 Q. I'm reading out what you said. I'm not suggesting that he was a

5 reservist, I'm just reading what you said. You said, "Probably a

6 reservist, and I saw that he couldn't button up his uniform."

7 A. Because it didn't fit him. It didn't fit him.

8 Q. I see, it didn't fit him. As opposed to other officers.

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. And then in some other assertions here you say that those men were

11 dirty, disorderly, et cetera. Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes, it is true. We, too, were rather dirty and messy as well.

13 Q. Mr. Cakalic, is it clear from that that these were people who were

14 not members of the JNA?

15 A. Sir, they were wearing JNA uniforms. Whether they belonged or

16 not, I don't know. I don't know whether you know whether they belonged or

17 not.

18 Q. I certainly don't know, but I assume, on the basis of the

19 information I have, there were no JNA members at all at Ovcara, because it

20 was -- these were local -- of course uniformed but local members of the

21 armed forces, and that is why I'm asking you, because that's what I'm

22 trying to establish.

23 A. There were three officers - one colonel and two lieutenant

24 colonels - in Ovcara, and they were in charge of the whole parade that was

25 happening over there, and another 12, up to 15 men came with baseball bats

Page 24554

1 in a separate vehicle. And when they entered Ovcara, the gates closed.

2 Q. Sir, you're saying that the commander in the hospital was Major

3 Sljivancanin, and here you're mentioning one colonel and two lieutenant

4 colonels. Please separate the hospital from Ovcara.

5 JUDGE MAY: Do not interrupt the witness.

6 Can you -- just a moment. Yes, go on, Mr. Cakalic. Let him

7 finish. Just one at a time. Do you know -- yes.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask for pauses, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sljivancanin was in the hospital,

10 and Sljivancanin appeared in the Vukovar barracks when they took us there

11 from the hospital. And when we reached Ovcara, two lieutenant colonels

12 and a colonel appeared, who came from somewhere. They appeared there

13 after Dokmanovic had left from Ovcara.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I'm very grateful to you for this. So we've established that

16 Sljivancanin arrested Vidic, and he was anyway a security officer. He

17 behaved correctly. And he took Vidic away. Vidic was later in prison and

18 later -- it doesn't matter, for your evidence. So you didn't see

19 Sljivancanin in Ovcara at all.

20 A. In Ovcara, no, but in the barracks, yes. He came to see us in the

21 barracks.

22 Q. A major in the barracks, it was only logical for him to be there.

23 Now you are saying two colonels and one lieutenant colonel. Do

24 you have any idea as to how they could have been active JNA officers?

25 A. Yes, I do have an idea. Did you see the magazine Nasa Armija from

Page 24555

1 the end of November?

2 Q. No, I didn't.

3 A. Do you know who was on the front page of that magazine? Mile --

4 what's his name, Mrksic. He liberated Vukovar. And I identified him when

5 I received that magazine in Mitrovica. They gave us that magazine to

6 read, and I compared him with the colonel who came to Ovcara.

7 JUDGE MAY: And just -- let's clarify that. And it's in fact,

8 time for the adjournment.

9 You say you identified him. You identified him as the colonel, is

10 that right, at Ovcara?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

13 Mr. Cakalic, don't speak to anybody about your -- to anybody about

14 your evidence until it's over. And would you be back in 20 minutes,

15 please.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How much more time do I have,

17 Mr. May? [In English] How much time? [Interpretation] I was asking you

18 how much more time will you give me.

19 JUDGE MAY: 12 minutes.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 12 minutes.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, 12 minutes isn't enough.

25 Twelve minutes isn't enough for this witness.

Page 24556

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13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

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21

22

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Page 24557

1 JUDGE MAY: A quarter of an hour and then we'll consider the

2 position.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, but I doubt it.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Cakalic, I would like us to establish the truth of actually

6 what happened there, so could you give me precise answers to the questions

7 I'm asking you. You said that you recognised Colonel Mrksic. Did you

8 recognise him on the basis of the photograph you later saw on that cover

9 page of the magazine and you described him on the basis of the photograph

10 or on the basis of what you saw over there?

11 A. When he entered Ovcara, the hangar of Ovcara, then a man came up,

12 a soldier, and he said to the Chetniks there, Kuzmic and the others, said,

13 "Colonel Mrksic is coming." There were two lieutenant colonels and one

14 colonel so it was logical that Mrksic was the colonel. That's right,

15 isn't it?

16 And when I was in Sremska Mitrovica in the camp there, we got the

17 magazines Nasa Armija and Front, two magazines to read. And when I got

18 this Nasa Armija, "Our Army" magazine, on the cover was this man whom I

19 recognised as being Mrksic.

20 Q. Did he have a whistle?

21 A. I was outside the hangar, and somebody had a whistle and gave the

22 order for when they were supposed to start beating.

23 Q. One witness, he was a protected witness so I can't read his name

24 out, he was 1171 - that was his code - he said that there was a colonel

25 and he described him as being a fat man with a whistle. Colonel Mrksic is

Page 24558

1 not a fat man.

2 A. Well, I don't know who made that statement and testified. What I

3 said is correct.

4 Q. Well, the colonel you saw, was he fat?

5 A. No, he wasn't.

6 Q. All right. Fine.

7 A. There was a Chetnik who was fat. He was about 150 to 160

8 kilogrammes, and he owned the baton that the major held.

9 Q. You said that you recognised some local Serbs who beat you, and

10 among them Slavko Dokmanovic and a certain man called Milan Bulic, Dado

11 Dukic, and Bogdan Kuzmic, as well as Stevan Miscevic.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you say that before the war in Vukovar they sold fish; is that

14 what you said?

15 A. Yes, that man Miscevic, he's a fisherman, he sold his own fish.

16 He caught the fish. He was a fisherman himself.

17 Q. On page 9 you say you saw Kuzmic and Bulic beating a man called

18 Samardzic, Damjan Samardzic at Ovcara, nicknamed Kemo?

19 A. And they killed him.

20 Q. Is it clear that Kuzmic and Bulic were not members of the JNA,

21 either of them? Isn't that right?

22 A. Well, they were paramilitary units. They were in paramilitary

23 units.

24 Q. That's all I wanted to establish. Right. Now, Mr. Cakalic,

25 together with you in the bus, you mentioned a moment ago during the

Page 24559

1 examination in chief Vilim Karlovic; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you said in passing that he is a major in the Croatian army to

4 this day; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. He's a major, a Bojnik, as they call him.

7 Q. All right, Bojnik, then, meaning major.

8 Isn't it clear that thereby you are denying your assertion that in

9 the hospital and with you there were no people who were members of the

10 armed forces of Croatia?

11 A. I didn't know he was in the army at the time.

12 Q. You didn't know he was in the army at the time?

13 A. No. He was a patient in the hospital, I think.

14 Q. Well, I don't suppose you're disputing the fact that he was in the

15 army.

16 A. That's what I learnt later on, yes. I heard of that later..

17 Q. That's what I wanted to establish, thank you.

18 A. He's in the army today too.

19 Q. You claim at Ovcara a Serb member of the Territorial Defence by

20 the name of Stevo Zoric, nicknamed Cevo, saved you; is that right?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. And throughout your statement you refer to Serbs in two ways; you

23 either say "Chetniks" or you say "soldiers"; is that right?

24 A. Well, I don't know. Do you call them anything else? Chetniks are

25 one thing. They needn't only be Serbs. They can be Montenegrins too.

Page 24560

1 Q. Yes, all right. Fine. But you, for instance, spoke about a

2 certain major, and a moment ago when you spoke about that particular major

3 you said that it was a major who had a large cockade, cap.

4 A. That's wrong. That's a mistake. No, that's not what I said. The

5 major was given this electric baton from the Chetnik, the large one that I

6 said weighed at least 130, 40 kilogrammes, 2 metres high. He had an

7 enormous knife this big tucked into his belt, and that Chetnik said to

8 that major, "Don't use it. There are a lot of witnesses, lots of

9 eyewitnesses."

10 Q. I thought I heard you say that the major with the large cockade

11 was there.

12 A. No, you misunderstood. The major is one man, the man with the

13 cockade is another. They are two people.

14 Q. All right. We can check it out in the transcript, but we don't

15 have time to do that now. You said that the major's name was Lukic and

16 that later on he took the name of Ivanovic. So how do you explain this,

17 him having two surnames?

18 A. Now, whether it was a pseudonym or not, I don't know. But the

19 fact is that they called him -- one man came up and said, "Major Lukic is

20 coming." Or rather, those three officers, the two lieutenant colonels and

21 one colonel. "They're coming and let's go outside." That is what Lukic

22 said. And when I heard him being called by his surname in Negoslavci,

23 Major Ivanovic, I saw that it was one and the same man.

24 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, either in the hospital or at

25 Velepromet or at Ovcara did you see a single JNA soldier kill any of the

Page 24561

1 detainees? I'm asking you whether you saw a single soldier, a single JNA

2 soldier kill a single detainee.

3 A. No.

4 Q. You didn't?

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 Q. And is it true that at Ovcara you noticed a young member of the

7 Territorial Defence and you say that his name was Guja and the son of a

8 Serb woman by the name of Mirjana Guga.

9 A. He was the person who opened and closed the hangar and he was

10 wearing the JNA uniform, not at Ovcara, not in the hangar itself, actually

11 outside the hangar. He was in front of the hangar.

12 Q. In front of the hangar, right.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And is it true that he cursed your Ustasha grandmother and cursed

15 his uncle who was a tradesman in Autobacka and said that he would kill him

16 if the opportunity ever arose? Is that right?

17 A. Yes, that is quite true.

18 Q. And this young man, was his father a Croat?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And his surname was Molnar?

21 A. Yes, Molnar.

22 Q. And the other surname was his mother's maiden name, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This is what it says on -- in your statement. It says: "At the

25 time, the military guard was held by Guja, and he swore at our Ustasha

Page 24562

1 mother though he was a Croat himself, and he didn't like his uncle

2 either." He said he'd kill him if the opportunity ever arose.

3 A. Yes. That's quite right.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd like to draw your

5 attention, gentlemen, to how in this trial, in these proceedings, certain

6 witnesses are being used who quite obviously have something to do with the

7 crime and they are accusing innocent people, and those witnesses are being

8 used as witnesses although --

9 JUDGE MAY: This is not the time for you to make submissions. Now,

10 what is the question you want to ask the witness?

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Is it true that in that same statement, on the page ending in

13 number 86, when you described the people who beat the detainees in the

14 hangar at Ovcara, that they used the term "Chetniks"?

15 A. Yes. The Chetniks of Vukovar, that was the expression.

16 Q. So these weren't members of the JNA.

17 A. That's right. This young man was outside the hangar. We've

18 settled that one, haven't we?

19 Q. Yes. And is it true that you said that while you were at the

20 Velepromet, in the room you were in, that a captain of the military police

21 came into the room and told you to get ready to leave because the Chetniks

22 could turn up at any moment ready to slaughter you all? Is that what you

23 said?

24 A. Yes, that's correct. And I say the same thing here and now. "Do

25 you want to tell me something else," he said. "Go on." He said, "Come

Page 24563

1 on, people, I'll take you to the barracks because the Chetniks will come,

2 they're all drunk and they'll kill you all." And he introduced himself as

3 being Captain Kosa [phoen]. And I said, "Captain, do you give us your

4 word that that's how it will be?" And he said yes. So we came to the

5 yard and the busses, he couldn't switch the engines of the bus on and the

6 Chetniks were coming in and he managed to switch the motor on and took us

7 to the barracks.

8 Q. All right. Now, tell me, I assume you differentiate between the

9 representatives of the JNA and these people whom you say were drunk, and

10 that there was the danger of them killing you there.

11 A. In this particular case, I am deeply grateful to that captain.

12 JUDGE MAY: Now, you must pause. Pause for the interpreters,

13 please, both of you.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. All right. Now, do you consider that had he handed you over, that

16 you really would have been killed?

17 A. I do believe that I would have been killed, yes.

18 Q. And is it quite clear that this representative of the JNA - it's

19 not important what rank he had or anything else - for whom you say was a

20 captain of the military police in fact saved your life?

21 A. He was a KOS captain, counterintelligence.

22 Q. All right. A security captain. Well, it's the

23 counterintelligence service, actually. That's the translation of KOS; is

24 that right?

25 A. All right then. Yes.

Page 24564

1 Q. Now, do you consider the captain saved your life?

2 A. Yes, he saved all our lives, all of us who survived that.

3 Q. Well, were you able to establish from that fact then that the JNA

4 endeavoured to protect you under the circumstances and everything that was

5 happening in Vukovar at the time?

6 A. Not the JNA; it was that individual, sir, that particular KOS

7 captain, who gave us his name and surname, which I'm afraid I haven't

8 remembered. He was a little shorter than me. He was very proper and

9 correct in his conduct and he said, "Come on, people. Get ready to leave.

10 We've come to take you off in a bus and we'll take you all away from

11 here." Whereas, the other members of JNA who were in the barracks behaved

12 quite differently. First of all, they received us, gave us some water,

13 something to eat, they took us in. And after that -- but I suppose you'll

14 come to that. I don't want to jump the gun here.

15 Q. What happened to you? Were you mistreated by the JNA soldiers?

16 A. In the barracks.

17 Q. So you said in the barracks there were members of some

18 paramilitaries as well, paramilitary formations.

19 A. I don't think you've understood me. I said I was taken prisoner

20 in Vukovar hospital, taken to the barracks, from the barracks to Ovcara,

21 from Ovcara to Velepromet, from Velepromet to Modateks, then back to

22 Velepromet and from Velepromet with that captain, the KOS captain, taken

23 back to the barracks. That was my route.

24 Q. All right. And that captain saved you.

25 A. Yes.

Page 24565

1 Q. And did anything happen to any of you after that?

2 A. Well, yes. It happened in the barracks.

3 Q. Was anybody killed in the barracks?

4 A. Not in the barracks, no. But many guys were beaten, and a young

5 boy of about 18 had to swallow bullets.

6 Q. All right. But is it clear that the people whom you thought were

7 coming to kill you were not members of the JNA?

8 A. The ones in the barracks were members of the JNA.

9 Q. I'm not talking about the ones who were in the barracks but the

10 ones who were coming in to kill you and the ones that the captain of KOS

11 saved you from.

12 A. He said that the Chetniks are coming. And when we got out of

13 Velepromet to go into the busses, we heard their songs. You know the ones

14 they sing.

15 Q. All right. But is it clear that the crime at Ovcara was not

16 committed by members of the JNA? Is that clear?

17 A. Oh, sir, I didn't watch them carry on killing. I just saw them

18 kill Kemo and Damjan Samardzic in Ovcara itself. And we were driven off

19 at around 7.00 from Ovcara to Velepromet, then Modateks, and then from

20 Modateks back to Velepromet and then back to the barracks, as I said a

21 moment ago.

22 Q. Yes, you've described that to us very well. So this officer of

23 the JNA saved you. You and that group of men.

24 A. Yes. And if you know him, say hello to him for me.

25 Q. Unfortunately, I don't know him personally. But he saved you from

Page 24566

1 a band of men that could not have belonged to the JNA, a formation not

2 belonging to the JNA.

3 A. Those formations were members of the JNA, the ones that took us to

4 the Velepromet were the Chetniks.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 JUDGE MAY: I've stopped the -- I've stopped the microphone.

7 You've now had rather more than the quarter of an hour we've promised.

8 We've considered the situation in this case. We will give you

9 another five minutes. We're not going to give you more because of the

10 time that was spent and wasted earlier on on irrelevant cross-examination.

11 You've got five minutes left.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. All right, Mr. Cakalic. Now, can we clarify this: When you were

14 taken over from Ovcara by the office of the JNA --

15 A. Not from Ovcara, sir, from Velepromet.

16 Q. All right. From Velepromet, I mean. Then nobody after that was

17 killed.

18 A. Right. Of the seven of us who were saved, that's who I'm talking

19 about. The ones that stayed at Ovcara, that's another matter.

20 Q. That's another matter, yes. And there was no JNA formation there.

21 I assume you know that.

22 A. Well, it wasn't a formation but there were those three officers,

23 as I told you. That was at some other time, much later.

24 Q. You said that the JNA held the prison in Sremska Mitrovica; is

25 that right?

Page 24567

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is that what you said?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The army?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you know that in Sremska Mitrovica there's a regular prison.

7 Does that mean that part of the prison was handed over to these forces who

8 brought in captives from Vukovar, detainees from Vukovar?

9 A. Yes, and from other places too.

10 Q. All right, fine. Now, did you have occasion to meet any

11 representative of the authorities, except for the members of the army?

12 A. The authorities, no. But journalists did come.

13 Q. How long were you in Sremska Mitrovica?

14 A. A little less than three months.

15 Q. And how did they behave towards you in Sremska Mitrovica during

16 those three months?

17 A. Differently at different times. For example, when we arrived in

18 Sremska Mitrovica - and I've already said how we were beaten outside and

19 then in the sports hall and then outside again --

20 Q. Yes, you mentioned that. As far as I remember, you mentioned a

21 paramilitary formation; right?

22 A. You mean in Sremska Mitrovica?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. No, I didn't say paramilitary formation. Not at all. There were

25 -- the highest rank I saw there was a colonel, and the lowest was a

Page 24568

1 private -- a corporal.

2 Q. What was his name, this --

3 A. I don't know. I never learnt his name, and he didn't want to give

4 us his name.

5 Q. But it was part of the prison used by the armed forces; right?

6 A. Yes. And before that, it was the condemned convicts who were

7 there.

8 Q. And did anything happen to anybody in Sremska Mitrovica? Was

9 anybody killed?

10 A. Two or three minutes before midnight every night we would hear 10

11 to 15 shots fired. Every night. And the casualties in Sremska Mitrovica,

12 when we were divided up into the rooms, I said Niko Soljic was killed. He

13 was beaten to death, kicked to death in fact.

14 Q. Who killed him?

15 A. Well, who could have been there in Sremska Mitrovica? Just the

16 army, nobody else. No paramilitary units or anything of that kind could

17 have been there, except on Saturdays and Sundays, the ones who came in

18 from Vukovar.

19 Q. All right. But you said that they would come from Vukovar when

20 the army wasn't in the prison, when the soldiers weren't in the prison.

21 A. It was like this: You couldn't leave a prison without the army;

22 that is quite sure. But at that time, we didn't see a single officer or a

23 single soldier in actual fact. They had withdrawn and gave a chance to

24 these others to take it out on the people there. And if you ask me, it

25 was the warden of the prison who was to blame, because they should have

Page 24569

1 been governed by the international rules.

2 Q. Well, nobody is questioning that. But they were coming from

3 Vukovar, and you say that Goran Hadzic was there - I made a note of that -

4 Boro Savic, and Branko Kovacevic, a judge.

5 A. But they didn't do the beating. They did the interrogation. I

6 said they interviewed me, interrogated me, Goran Hadzic and Boro Savic,

7 but that the guard in front of the door was Branko Kovacevic, a judge of

8 the Vukovar court. So those two, the primitive people, he stood guard for

9 them.

10 Q. You even said that this judge had a baseball bat.

11 A. Which judge?

12 Q. Well, this Branko Kovacevic. The judge that you say had a

13 baseball bat.

14 A. No, he had a baton, a club, a white one, this big, a truncheon.

15 Goran didn't beat me, neither did the other one. But when I was walking

16 down the other corridor, that's when I was beaten.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. No, it's not okay.

19 Q. I didn't mean it in that sense, all right? I meant it in the

20 sense of your answer, of you having given me an answer.

21 So these people who came from Vukovar to interrogate you, to

22 question you, to talk to you, they did so to learn something, to get some

23 information from you. Did they beat you?

24 A. No, they didn't beat me. I'm telling you this for the third time.

25 Goran Hadzic or Boro Savic didn't beat me, nor did the judge beat me.

Page 24570

1 When we were taken further away from them - and I think this was either in

2 the basement or the ground floor - I was on the third floor, so between

3 the ground floor, up the stairs to the third floor, that was when I was

4 beaten.

5 Q. Do you think that Boro Savic or Goran Hadzic or this man Branko

6 Kovacevic had anything to do with this mistreatment of you?

7 A. How should I know?

8 Q. Well, what did they ask you? What kind of things did they ask

9 you?

10 A. They asked me how many Serbs there were in the Croatian army,

11 whether they had been mobilised. I said yes, they had been mobilised and

12 I gave them the names and surnames of the people who had been mobilised.

13 They were good soldiers, they asked me, were they? And I said, yes, they

14 were good soldiers. One of them has an officer's pension today. He's

15 retired with an officer's pension.

16 JUDGE MAY: No. This must be your last question, Mr. Milosevic,

17 your last question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had been mobilised.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And how many in all were there soldiers in Vukovar, of the

21 Croatian ones, the Croatian National Guards Corps and all the rest of

22 them? Because you told us how many Serbs there were in the army, I assume

23 you know the Croats.

24 A. I know two of them, because they were from my own building. So I

25 know these two particular ones. As to how -- what the total was, I really

Page 24571

1 can't say. And I don't think it exists in the annals and records either.

2 Q. All right. Thank you.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I would

5 like to ask the witness kindly to explain only a few things in relation to

6 what happened in the hospital and around the hospital. That is why I

7 would like to ask you, Your Honours, to look at tab 2, page 4, second

8 paragraph.

9 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] And the first thing I would like to ask you is

11 the following: You were in the hospital on the 17th, 18th, and 19th, and

12 on the 20th you left.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I'm not going to ask you again about all these things you already

15 spoke of in relation to the appearance of Major Sljivancanin, but please

16 look at page 4 of your statement, the one you gave to the investigators on

17 the 18th of June, 1995. There is a sentence in that particular paragraph:

18 "I personally did not see any other soldiers of the so-called JNA or

19 Chetniks inside the hospital at that time." That's what you stated. Is

20 that right? That during those three days you didn't?

21 A. Well, they couldn't have been there because Vukovar had not fallen

22 and the -- the hospital, rather, had not fallen. That's when they

23 appeared, Sljivancanin and this --

24 Q. No, I'm not asking you about Sljivancanin. You said that "At that

25 time, apart from Sljivancanin and Kuzmic I personally did not see any

Page 24572

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Page 24573

1 other soldiers of the so-called JNA or Chetniks inside the hospital at the

2 time. I mean, those three days, until the 20th."

3 A. On the 20th, in the morning, Sljivancanin appeared yet again --

4 Radic.

5 Q. I'm not asking you about that. I'm asking you about these three

6 days.

7 A. Those three days? No.

8 Q. Right. Please look at this statement that you gave. And I

9 received this as a document along with your statement. This is what you

10 told the investigating judge, Zvonko Kuharic. "On the 13th of December,

11 1993 --"

12 A. Is this an official note?

13 Q. No. No, it's not the official note. I'll give it to you straight

14 away for you to have a look at it as soon as I read what you said happened

15 on the 18th of November. This is what you said here: "That night, from

16 the yard, gunfire could be heard, small arms gunfire, and Duvnjak Stanko

17 and Mandic Marko were killed then because they fell into the hands of the

18 Chetniks. At any rate, during that night I noticed that the Chetniks had

19 different uniforms, those that were locally made and those that were

20 foreign made. From time to time, they would barge into the hospital, and

21 that's where there were patients mostly and those civilians who had sought

22 shelter there. Whoever they recognised, they took out and there's been no

23 trace of these people." So this was on the 18th of November.

24 A. That's when the hospital fell. When Mr. Sljivancanin took Marin

25 Vidic, that's when this happened, afterwards.

Page 24574

1 Q. You said that nobody entered the hospital for three days, and this

2 happened on the 18th of November, and that's what you described. Please

3 take a look at this.

4 A. Well, perhaps I got a bit confused, but I'm telling you the truth

5 now. This happened at the moment when Mr. Sljivancanin went out with

6 Marin Vidic. That's when the hospital fell. That's when the hospital

7 fell. Do you understand what I'm saying? It was on the 17th or the 18th

8 -- it was between the 18th and the 19th, at midnight.

9 Q. And then you say the Chetniks barged in?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. There is no JNA there.

12 A. Kuzmic was in the JNA. He came there and he talked to me.

13 Q. No, please, not then. Those three days.

14 A. I really have no idea what I should say to you now.

15 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you something else.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether this

17 statement can be exhibited. Perhaps the Court would require this

18 statement. It's for you to judge.

19 JUDGE MAY: We've got a huge amount of material.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir --

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Can you tell me something in relation to the hospital. In the

23 hospital you met Batarelo Zeljko.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Again, what I'm telling you now --

Page 24575

1 A. He was killed, yes.

2 Q. I'm using this information on the basis of the statement that you

3 gave that I got from the OTP. When you were in hospital, did

4 Mr. Batarelo Zeljko tell you that he --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That he had tried to penetrate the railroad across the bridge but

7 they couldn't get there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Krsic Slavko [phoen] was killed there and Simo Bandelin [phoen];

10 is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And Batarelo got into a ditch?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where he spent the night and then he came to the hospital?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. He was not wounded.

17 A. No.

18 Q. So he sought shelter there at the hospital.

19 A. We were there together for one night.

20 Q. And how many more people were in the hospital who had not been

21 wounded at all and who had taken part in the fighting?

22 A. What a strange question. I mean, people who took part in the

23 fighting and who had not been wounded. Well, those people who were in the

24 hospital did not take part in the fighting at all except for the wounded.

25 Q. Were there people like Batarelo who did take part in this

Page 24576

1 penetration and then he sought shelter in the hospital?

2 A. I also wanted to be part of this penetration, breaking-up, because

3 we all wanted to save ourselves. We didn't want to meet the military or

4 paramilitaries in Vukovar because we knew what awaited us.

5 Q. This is my last question: Before you said that in hospital there

6 were people who were members of the ZNG and who had not been wounded --

7 A. Who had been wounded.

8 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

9 MR. McKEON: Your Honour, I have no redirect. There is one matter

10 that I wanted to bring to the Court's attention that came up in proofing.

11 I don't know that it's appropriate to discuss that in front of the

12 witness. If -- if perhaps the Court has no questions, if the witness

13 could withdraw but remain available to answer any questions if necessary.

14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We've got one document, the registrar

15 reminds me.

16 Mr. Milosevic, it's one of your documents. It's dated the 18th of

17 September, 1991. The witness did recognise it. Do you want it exhibited,

18 this one, 18th of September? It was an order of some sort.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

20 JUDGE MAY: We'll give it the next D number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 167, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

23 Yes. It's pointed out it was the 8th of September, not the 18th.

24 Mr. Cakalic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming

25 to the International Tribunal to give it. You're free to go.

Page 24577

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I kindly ask the Honourable

2 Presiding Judge something, please, by your leave? Just two minutes.

3 JUDGE MAY: Well, it's not normal, quite honestly, but we'll see.

4 If you want to raise something very briefly, you can raise it. We'll see

5 what it is.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say this now?

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic --

9 JUDGE MAY: No.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I have a request. I have a

11 request. I have something to ask him.

12 JUDGE MAY: No. I'm afraid -- I'm afraid not. We can't allow you

13 to ask him questions here. But thank you very much for coming.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. McKeon.

17 MR. McKEON: Your Honour, I just wanted to bring to the Court's

18 attention that during proofing we did show the witness a series of

19 photographs, and this is because he said that Colonel Mrksic, he

20 identified him as being at Ovcara. Amongst the photographs we showed him

21 were photographs of Mrksic, and he was not able to identify him as the

22 colonel or as somebody that he had seen.

23 JUDGE MAY: You make that as a formal admission.

24 MR. McKEON: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. And that will be noted.

Page 24578

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The next witness, I understand, has protective

3 measures and we'll need to take the precautions.

4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: Are we likely to finish his evidence today? It seems

6 unlikely, given the time estimate.

7 MR. GROOME: I think not, Your Honour. I would hope to finish the

8 examination in chief and then hopefully there will be time for his

9 cross-examination to begin.

10 JUDGE MAY: He'll be back next Tuesday.

11 MR. GROOME: Yes, I've already discussed that with the witness and

12 he's available at the Court's convenience.

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I might raise a matter while we're

15 waiting for the witness. There are a series of documents that we will use

16 with the witness. They are his personnel records, and we will be asking

17 that they be tendered under seal. It will be far more expeditious if we

18 are able to use the Sanction system, but that would require the amici not

19 to have their monitors turned on to the Sanction system but simply to use

20 the binders that they've been provided. If they're willing to do that, I

21 think it would be the better way to proceed.

22 MR. KAY: Yes.

23 MR. GROOME: Thank you. And if I could ask that two exhibit

24 numbers -- well, the registrar is not here, so I'll ...

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 24579

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: WITNESS B-127

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to take a seat.

7 Yes, Mr. Groome, when the witness is ready.

8 MR. GROOME: Just while we're waiting, if I could ask that two

9 exhibit numbers be assigned. One is a binder of 12 tabs of exhibits, and

10 the other is a binder with one exhibit that I'll be just asking be marked

11 for identification.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 505 for the binder.

13 JUDGE MAY: It will be convenient to deal with the other one when

14 we get to it.

15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. That's fine.

16 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal simply with the binder at the moment.

17 Examined by Mr. Groome:

18 Q. Sir, pursuant to an order of the court to protect your identity, I

19 will refer to you as B-127 during the course of your evidence here today.

20 I would ask that we begin your testimony by asking that you be shown

21 Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 1. And my question to you is: Is that your

22 name printed at the top of the very first line of that document?

23 A. Yes, that's my name.

24 Q. And does that document accurately record your educational and

25 professional background?

Page 24580

1 The witness is indicating he was not able to hear my question.

2 I'll repeat it: Does that Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 1, accurately

3 reflect your educational and professional background?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there are a few more biographical

6 questions I would seek to ask. I'd ask that we go into private session

7 for that purpose.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 24581

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13 Page 24581 redacted private session

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Page 24582

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

3 MR. GROOME:

4 Q. Sir, in Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 1, you describe your ethnic

5 background as being Yugoslav. Do you characterise yourself as being a

6 Yugoslav?

7 A. I still declare myself that way. It has to do with the following:

8 From the 6th of April, 1992, I always felt that I was a Yugoslav officer.

9 Q. Now, sir, others who might seek to classify you into one of the

10 three groups, either Croat, Muslim, or Serb, how would they classify you?

11 If they wanted to put you into one of those ethnicities, what would you be

12 considered?

13 A. In terms of ethnicity, in that form, others classified me as a

14 Muslim. When I say "Muslim," I'm not referring to religious affiliation,

15 I am talking about belonging to a nation, to an ethnic group.

16 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to the spring of 1992. Were

17 you stationed in Banja Luka during that time period?

18 A. Yes. That's correct.

19 Q. Were you present during the takeover of Banja Luka by Serb forces?

20 A. Yes. I was there throughout this period of time, and I was a

21 witness to everything that happened. From 1990, my place of residence was

22 Banja Luka, so I was there all the time.

23 Q. Can I ask you to characterise for the Chamber the level of

24 fighting that occurred between different sides or different factions

25 during the takeover of Banja Luka in the spring of 1992.

Page 24583

1 A. In the spring of 1992, there was some street fighting -- or

2 rather, there was not any street fighting or any such activity. It has to

3 do with the following: The Serb defence forces -- or to be -- to put it

4 in our language, the SOS took over Banja Luka. And since then, it's been

5 under Serb authority. It has to do with the following: There wasn't any

6 fighting. These units simply took over, both the key facilities in town,

7 the municipality, the bridges, the entrances into town. During those

8 days, Banja Luka was sealed off. But if we are to talk about fighting,

9 there wasn't any to talk about.

10 Q. Can I ask you to give -- describe in a little greater detail what

11 you know about this SOS. Were they paramilitaries, police? Can you give

12 a few more details about that group.

13 A. At that time, in 1992, that is to say, March/April 1992, these

14 units were established from the reservists who were in the theatre of war

15 in Eastern Slavonia and throughout Croatia and had returned to Banja Luka.

16 At that point in time, they were considered to be paramilitary units.

17 Q. Can you describe how the non-Serb population of Banja Luka was

18 treated after this SOS group took over the town.

19 A. As for the non-Serb population, suffice it to say that it is a

20 fact that when the SOS took over, the representatives of other

21 parliamentary members did not have access to the city assembly. As for

22 ordinary people, there is nothing worth mentioning.

23 Q. When you referred to other parliamentary members, are you talking

24 elected representatives that were of non-Serb ethnicity?

25 A. Correct. These are delegates, MPs, non-Serbs who were elected in

Page 24584

1 the legal and legitimate elections in 1991 in the municipality of Banja

2 Luka.

3 Q. Did there come a time when non-Serbs in Banja Luka began to lose

4 their jobs?

5 A. From then onwards, all employed persons who were non-Serbs lost

6 their jobs. They were quite simply dismissed or they were told not to

7 come to work at all.

8 Q. Now, during the time that the SOS paramilitaries took over the

9 town and the non-Serbs were being fired from their jobs, can you give the

10 Chamber some sense of the level of JNA presence in the town during that

11 time period.

12 A. In that period of time, the Yugoslav People's Army was present

13 with all its units, and there weren't any clashes between the SOS units

14 and the army units. Later on, agreement was reached concerning the fact

15 that there was one single objective involved and that practically the town

16 was in Serb hands and that it wasn't necessary to have any major security

17 forces in the streets of Banja Luka. Rather, activities should be geared

18 towards the frontline.

19 Q. Are you able to estimate for the Chamber the approximate number of

20 JNA troops that were actually present in Banja Luka during this time

21 period?

22 A. All the units were present there. However, a fact should be

23 mentioned in this respect, and that is that this is a period of time when

24 non-Serbs in the ranks of the Yugoslav People's Army were leaving the army

25 and had left it altogether. As for the Yugoslav People's Army at that

Page 24585

1 point in time, it was practically a Serb army.

2 Q. Are you familiar with a paramilitary group that referred to

3 themselves as the Wolves from Vucjak?

4 A. Yes, I am familiar with them, and I did have some contact with

5 them.

6 Q. Did you have conversations with members of that group?

7 A. Yes. This happened in 1991, in the month of November, during the

8 capture of the TV transmitter of TV Sarajevo in those days and turning

9 around that same transmitter to broadcast the signals of Radio Television

10 Serbia. Or rather, in those days it was Belgrade Radio Television.

11 Q. Did members of that unit indicate to you where they had been for

12 their training?

13 A. Yes. I spoke to them in an office as they had asked us to assist

14 them in food, quartermaster supplies. And during those conversations,

15 they told us that they had completed training in Knin and that actually

16 they had been trained by Captain Dragan over there.

17 Q. Did some of the members of this unit wear a distinctive piece of

18 head gear?

19 A. They were men which had non-establishment weapons, and they were

20 not clothed in a uniform manner.

21 Q. Can you please describe their uniform or what they wore as best as

22 you can recall.

23 A. In those days, they wore camouflage uniforms which were still not

24 widespread among members of the JNA in those days, and these were

25 different kinds of uniforms but mostly camouflage.

Page 24586

1 Q. Can you describe the uniform in as much detail as you can,

2 including any head gear that they wore.

3 A. Each one of them wore a red beret, camouflage uniforms that were

4 olive-green grey, which up until then were not present within our units,

5 and the beret was either on their heads or at their belt.

6 Q. Now, are you familiar with the person by the name of Captain Pavic

7 from this time period?

8 A. The then-company commander was Pavic. He had contact with them,

9 and in those days those men who had come to take control of the

10 transmitters of TV Sarajevo were considered a danger for the unit, and so

11 he undertook certain steps to protect the unit, so that he informed

12 General Uzelac about all this.

13 Q. And did he make a request of General Uzelac regarding this unit?

14 A. The request was that in view of the fact that these men were

15 considered to be paramilitaries, the request was for those men to leave

16 the transmitter area; otherwise, General Uzelac would ask for aid from

17 Zeljevo [phoen] airport for two MiG planes to come and destroy the

18 transmitter.

19 Q. Did they respond to that threat?

20 A. After that, they picked up their equipment and left the

21 transmitter of TV Sarajevo. But after that, the TV Sarajevo transmitter

22 continued to broadcast the signal of Television Belgrade.

23 Q. If I can now turn your attention to mosques in the Banja Luka

24 municipality. Were you present during the destruction of a large number

25 of those mosques?

Page 24587

1 A. Yes, I was present there. In those days I performed the duties of

2 the man on duty in the Vrbas Barracks. I'm referring to the month of May.

3 Between the 7th and the 8th of May, 1992, I was on duty and I was a

4 witness of those events.

5 Q. During that time period, was there any fighting in and around

6 Banja Luka?

7 A. I wish first of all to make a correction. I may have said 1992,

8 but I really meant 1993.

9 Q. The correction is noted. Was there any fighting during that time

10 period, of 1993 -- May of 1993?

11 A. In that period, in the town of Banja Luka there was no fighting

12 whatsoever. I was on duty at the Vrbas Barracks, and if there had been

13 any fighting, I would have known it, either from the person who was on

14 duty in the garrison or -- and there were no events that would resemble

15 any kind of combat activity or herald any combat activity.

16 Q. What did you witness that night that -- what did you witness that

17 night in connection with the destruction of mosques?

18 A. In view of the location of the Vrbas Barracks, I couldn't see

19 anything, but I could hear, around 3.00 a.m,. two very powerful explosions

20 in town.

21 Q. Now, prior to this day, if there had been emergencies in the town,

22 were you able to hear from the barracks the sounds of fire department

23 sirens, and police sirens?

24 A. I didn't hear any of that.

25 Q. Would you ordinarily have been able to hear sirens of those two

Page 24588

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Page 24589

1 departments in the event of other emergencies in the town?

2 A. Of course. One would have heard if there was any large-scale

3 activity.

4 Q. The next day or the morning of the same day, did you go to visit

5 the sites from where you heard the explosions?

6 A. After I handed over duty, I headed home. And on the way home, as

7 I walked, I saw that the Ferhadija mosque had been destroyed and

8 bulldozers had already arrived to clear up the rubble. Around the mosque,

9 there was a lot of broken glass, and the police of the Banja Luka MUP was

10 providing security around the destroyed mosque.

11 Q. And what was -- were the sites of some of the destroyed mosques

12 turned into other uses?

13 A. The place where the Ferhadija mosque used to stand was

14 subsequently covered with concrete, the area was cleared, and all that

15 remained was the ancillary building of the mosque, and I think it's still

16 there.

17 Q. Were you present in Banja Luka when a Catholic church was

18 destroyed in a similar fashion?

19 A. In 1995, after the fall of Eastern Slavonia, what happened was

20 that the Catholic church was destroyed as a kind of revanchism in

21 retaliation, in fact, for the fall of Eastern Slavonia.

22 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to a person commonly known as

23 Arkan. Did there come a time when members of your unit were deployed in

24 the same area where Arkan's men was operating?

25 A. In addition to the basic tasks the unit had, our unit was also

Page 24590

1 occasionally assigned additional tasks on the frontline. I'm referring to

2 infantry assignments. And we engaged in these as assistance on the

3 frontline.

4 In 1995, this unit was in the region of Drvar, where it had been

5 assigned to secure that part of the frontline, and certain events happened

6 which involved, among other things, the wounding of an officer of the Army

7 of Republika Srpska, and there was some looting, looting of Serb houses by

8 Arkan's men. Serb houses among others.

9 Q. You spoke about the wounding of an officer. Were Arkan's men

10 implicated in the wounding of that VRS officer?

11 A. That man was performing his duty as he was ordered to do. He was

12 on duty for 15 days on the frontline. That was his shift. And when he

13 was due to go home because the regular replacement had arrived --

14 Q. Sir --

15 A. -- he was caught --

16 Q. I apologise for interrupting. The particular circumstances aren't

17 as important as whether or not Arkan was implicated or Arkan's men were

18 implicated in the wounding of that officer.

19 A. Yes. Yes, that is true.

20 Q. Was there a response from the VRS command with respect to the

21 wounding of this officer? And if so, what was it?

22 A. The reaction was as follows: After a report as to what was going

23 on over there, General Ninkovic sent a report to General Mladic, and

24 General Mladic actually ordered Arkan's men to be kicked out. And after

25 that, he was no longer in the region. As far as I know, he reappeared in

Page 24591

1 Eastern Slavonia.

2 Q. Now if I can draw your attention to the period of time when the

3 JNA officially withdrew from Bosnia and the Army of Republika Srpska or

4 VRS was formed. Were you present in Banja Luka during that time period?

5 A. I was in Banja Luka throughout that time.

6 Q. I'm going to ask you to describe in a -- on a theoretical level

7 how the names of units were changed. I will ask to go into private

8 session for you to tell us the specific change that was made to your unit.

9 So can you tell us just generally, were the names of the JNA units

10 altered? And if so, how?

11 A. As far as changes in the numerical name of the unit is concerned,

12 they did happen, and the unit, for instance, that withdrew from Croatia

13 was given a certain number in front of its basic number.

14 MR. GROOME: Can I ask that we go into private session briefly for

15 you -- for the witness to describe his particular unit.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 24592

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2 [redacted]

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8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

14 MR. GROOME:

15 Q. Sir, I would now like to ask you to deal with the topic of what

16 happened to the equipment of the former JNA as it withdrew from Slovenia,

17 Croatia, and then eventually Bosnia. Can you describe in general terms

18 what happened to that equipment.

19 A. In concrete terms, the equipment of the former Yugoslav People's

20 Army in units that were located within the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina

21 and Croatia -- for example, MiG 29 planes flew to Batajnica and some other

22 resources, but in that period quite a lot of the equipment that belonged

23 to the unit remained in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24 Q. And was that equipment evenly distributed among the Bosnian

25 government and the Republika Srpska government, or can you describe in

Page 24593

1 greater detail who it was left to?

2 A. We are talking about the period of the spring of 1992, when the

3 Muslims and Croats had already abandoned the ranks of the units of the

4 JNA, and that equipment belonged only to the Army of Republika Srpska that

5 was formed in those days. There's no question of any distribution. Any

6 reference along those lines is not serious.

7 Q. When the JNA withdrew from Slovenia, did you become aware of air

8 navigation equipment that was removed from Cerklje [phoen] air force base

9 in Slovenia?

10 A. That's not the right name. We are talking about the Crklje

11 airport that was located in Slovenia, and a mixed air brigade that was

12 situated in Slovenia was dislocated to Mahovljani airport near Banja Luka.

13 However, that brigade was called 92, and the number 8 was added in

14 front.

15 Q. Now, the Chamber has heard some evidence about a no-fly zone and

16 its establishment. Can I ask you to describe the geographical area that

17 was the subject of the no-fly zone in Bosnia.

18 A. With the introduction of the no-fly zone, depending on the time

19 we're talking about, flights could be carried out only with special

20 permission from UN command.

21 Q. And what area was subjected to this no-fly zone?

22 A. The area covered the entire territory of the former Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina.

24 Q. Based upon your duties and the information that you had access to

25 officially, were you aware of violations of this no-fly zone?

Page 24594

1 A. Violations of the no-fly zone did occur, and it was sometimes

2 necessary to do so, and it happened mostly in the edges, that is, the area

3 of the Ponikve Crklje airport, an airport located near Titovo Uzice.

4 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown

5 Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 4. There are actually two documents in this

6 tab, Your Honour. The Prosecution is withdrawing the second of these

7 documents, which end in ERN number 5868, and is asking that the witness be

8 shown the single document which remains ending in ERN 4149.

9 Q. Sir, can I ask you to take a look at this document. And if you're

10 able, can you describe what is contained in this document.

11 Sir, I'm going to draw your attention to a particular portion of

12 that document on the television screen in front of you. You have the

13 entire document there to place it in context. Can you summarise just in

14 general terms what that document is.

15 A. First of all, this document basically consists of instructions for

16 command and coordinated action in PVO and air support. It was compiled by

17 the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, approved by General Ratko

18 Mladic. And in that document, this part has to do with coordinated action

19 by PVO and air support from Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Army of Yugoslavia.

20 The aim was to define the separation belt, exchange of information on the

21 situation in the air space, exchange of officers for coordinated action at

22 command posts, exchange of announcement of flights, and preparation of

23 joint plans on the use of forces, and the preparation of the coordinated

24 action plan, that is, with the command of -- in Yugoslavia and the air

25 forces in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

Page 24595

1 Q. Can I now draw your attention to a particular part of that

2 document on the television screen before you and ask for your comment on

3 that particular portion. And that is paragraph 3 of the document -- or

4 section 3. And if you would, would you explain the significance of this

5 order with respect to the no-fly zone.

6 A. This document prescribes all activities -- could you please repeat

7 your question.

8 Q. Can you please place this order into the context of the no-fly

9 zone. What -- what relationship does it have or what relevance does it

10 have to the imposition of a no-fly zone over Bosnia?

11 A. These are instructions for the activities of units prescribed on

12 the basis of the situation that has set in and with the introduction of

13 the no-fly zone for Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. If these instructions are followed, would it permit violations of

15 the no-fly zone to go undetected by international peacekeepers and

16 observers present?

17 A. Every army seeks to conceal its traces, violations of certain

18 rules which had been prescribed at that point in time. In one of the

19 orders, in fact, and instructions, it is said how this should be done if

20 such flights were to be discovered.

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, is that a convenient place to take the

22 break?

23 JUDGE MAY: I have a request from the registry for you to clarify

24 what document you are withdrawing. We, in fact, have only one document, I

25 think, in this tab.

Page 24596

1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, my apologies. It was withdrawn this

2 morning before it was actually handed up to the Chamber. I was unaware

3 that it had been already done, so my apologies.

4 JUDGE MAY: To just make sure I've got the right tab number, in

5 fact.

6 MR. GROOME: So the copy --

7 JUDGE MAY: Tab 4.

8 MR. GROOME: It's tab 4, Your Honour. And the ERN number at the

9 top right-hand corner of the page should read 03014149.

10 JUDGE MAY: I think that clarifies it.

11 We'll adjourn now.

12 Witness B-127, could you remember in this adjournment and any

13 others not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and

14 that does include the members of the Prosecution team. If you would be

15 back, please, in 20 minutes.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand.

17 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, there seems to have been some addition to

21 the witness's screen.

22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that is advised. It's a low-tech

23 solution to the problem of glare, to make it possible for the witness to

24 -- to see the TV screen.

25 JUDGE MAY: It seems a fairly -- a fairly Heath Robinson. It's

Page 24597

1 cardboard.

2 MR. GROOME: It is. Luckily we have face distortion.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll go on.

4 MR. GROOME:

5 Q. Sir, if I could now draw your attention to a different topic. Can

6 I ask you to describe from your perspective the changes in personnel in

7 the Army of the VRS as the JNA formally withdrew from Bosnia.

8 A. With the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army, or rather, when

9 it lost its name the Yugoslav People's Army, a transformation of the army

10 took place, of the army that was in the area. And this was what happened:

11 The officers who remained in Bosnia-Herzegovina and belonged to the former

12 JNA just became members of the Army of Yugoslavia through the 30th

13 Personnel Centre. The people who were doing their service - I'm talking

14 about the Serbs who were serving in Serbia and Montenegro - were

15 transferred to Bosnia and that's where they received their assignments. A

16 certain number of commanding officers who were born in Serbia were

17 withdrawn from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, specifically from

18 Banja Luka too, and flights -- air force flights were organised, taking

19 them back -- air lifts back to Serbia. The officers who were in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina became officers of the Army of Yugoslavia, as I say,

21 through the 30th Personnel Centre.

22 Q. Now, after the -- after the JNA formally withdrew from Bosnia,

23 were you ever present when a number of VJ, Yugoslav army, reservists came

24 to the Banja Luka area to conduct operations or to be involved in

25 operations?

Page 24598

1 A. In 1992, in the autumn, I was in the Vrbas barracks when three

2 busloads with Valjevo number plates arrived. They arrived at the barracks

3 to spend the night there and continue their way the next morning to the

4 front. They were given accommodation for the night, dinner and breakfast,

5 and they left in the morning, taking the direction of Bihac. I talked to

6 one of these men, and one of them told me that he had been mobilised in

7 Bubanj -- to Bubanj Potok, in fact, which is in Belgrade. And I asked him

8 man to man, "Did you have to come?" And he said, "I would have lost my

9 job had I refused to respond to the call-up for mobilisation."

10 Q. And approximately how many men were involved in this deployment?

11 A. Approximately 180 men. There were -- all the busses were full,

12 and each bus carried about 45 to 48 people, 45 to 48 seats.

13 Q. I want now -- I want to now ask you about any changes to the

14 communications systems as you have -- of which you have personal

15 knowledge. Before we do that, it will be necessary for us to -- or for

16 you to describe in greater detail your specific command and its

17 relationship to other commands.

18 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that we go into private session for

19 this purpose, and ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 505,

20 tab 3.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 24599

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Page 24600

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

8 MR. GROOME:

9 Q. Sir, before I ask you specific questions about the data link

10 you've referred to, I want to ask you some questions just generally about

11 how the radar system operated in the former Yugoslavia. And my first

12 question to you is: Would it be fair to say that a radar operator,

13 looking at a screen of the air space of the former Yugoslavia, was

14 receiving information that was collected by a number of individual radar

15 antennas?

16 A. Yes, that is correct, because all the information and the targets

17 discovered in the air space were identified and processed, this whole air

18 space was analysed, and data processed in this way was then sent on to the

19 commands and other users, beneficiaries, the missile units, the centres

20 for alarming the population and reporting, that kind of thing.

21 Q. Now, prior to 1991, did -- was there a unified centralised air

22 defence system for the JNA?

23 A. In the territory of the former Socialist Federal Republic of

24 Yugoslavia, there was a joint system for controlling the air space, and it

25 was a unified system with continuous surveillance of the air space, which

Page 24601

1 meant 24-hour supervision and control.

2 Q. What happened to this unified system after the JNA withdrew from

3 Slovenia and then the JNA withdrew from Croatia?

4 A. With the withdrawal of the units, both from Slovenia and from

5 Croatia, and the units which belonged to the 5th Regiment of air

6 surveillance, they had to be dislocated, moved, and so the regiment from

7 Zagreb was relocated to Bihac when the war began in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

8 they withdrew from Bihac, and the battalion withdrew to Banja Luka. As

9 far as the links are concerned, the newly arisen situation had to be

10 catered to so that new channels of communication were open with the

11 regiment's relocation to Bihac and Belgrade. And when I mean withdrawing

12 them to Belgrade, I mean the RViPV command through the radio relay

13 communication links. And so when the battalion was relocated from Bihac

14 to Banja Luka, new -- from the document that we were looking at a moment

15 ago, there was cooperation. They acted jointly, in fact. And the ViPVO

16 centre then became linked with the radar positions at Banovci and the ViPV

17 commands, so that they were able to see what we saw in the air space,

18 surveying it.

19 Q. If I can rephrase that in layman's terms, and if you would affirm

20 or correct where I've gone wrong. So the information, from what you're

21 saying, is after the JNA withdrew from Bosnia it maintained the data link

22 which allowed the VRS air defence system to see what the radar antennas in

23 Serbia and Montenegro were picking up, and vice versa; is that correct?

24 A. Those links were established when the battalion moved from Bihac

25 to Banja Luka. New data links were opened, yes, correct.

Page 24602

1 Q. And did the information shared -- was it as I described it?

2 A. Yes. Radio relay links were established, correct.

3 Q. Now, you've used a few abbreviations. Can I ask you to describe

4 in greater detail what the abbreviations mean. You've used the

5 abbreviation RViPVO. Can you describe what that signifies.

6 A. The abbreviation RViPVO means air force and anti-air defence, or

7 rather, air defence. In the Army of Republika Srpska, what was used was

8 ViPVO, the air force and PVO, air force and air defence. So when we're

9 talking about ViPVO, this was part of the Army of Republika Srpska and

10 RViPVO referred to the Army of Yugoslavia.

11 Q. Now, this data link, what is the latest period in time that you

12 are able to say from your personal knowledge that data link existed

13 allowing VRS air defence personnel to see what was coming from the radar

14 antennas in Serbia and Montenegro? What's the latest point in time?

15 A. The last moment, latest period, was the introduction of IFOR,

16 IFOR's prohibition of the radar and computer devices, because the radar --

17 and the radar stopped working then.

18 Q. And to the best of your recollection, when was that? What was the

19 month and year of that?

20 A. Straight after the war. We're talking about 1996, 1997. And

21 after that, permission was given for the radar and computer devices for

22 pure maintenance, for their maintenance, a certain number of hours were

23 allocated. So no combat operations of those units existed any longer.

24 Q. Just incidentally, prior to the break-up of the former Yugoslavia,

25 did the JNA have any similar relationship with a neighbouring country,

Page 24603

1 whereby it permitted the automatic transfer of its data from its radar

2 stations to go to other countries such as Hungary or other countries it

3 perceived to be friendly?

4 A. As far as those data are concerned, they were just used for our

5 own country, and there was a certain number for civil aviation was

6 permitted with respect to an exchange of information when civil aviation,

7 or rather, civilian airplanes flew from one country to another, they could

8 access that information.

9 Q. And how about with respect to military aircraft?

10 A. Only for our own users. There was absolutely no way in which we

11 would inform Hungary or Romania, for example. It was only for the needs

12 of the former Yugoslav People's Army.

13 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony you referred a number of times to

14 the 30th Personnel Centre. Can I ask you to describe what your

15 understanding is of the 30th Personnel Centre.

16 A. The 30th Personnel Centre of the general staff of the Army of

17 Yugoslavia was a department in the personnel administration of the general

18 staff of the Army of Yugoslavia. It was established at that point in time

19 when the war in Bosnia began, or at least I didn't know about it up until

20 then. But when the war began, I received papers where it said as a

21 heading "The 30th Personnel Centre." And the markings for that 30th

22 Personnel Centre was military post 3001, VP 3001.

23 Q. When you say the -- the markings were military post 3001, are you

24 saying that that's the number that was used to indicate that a document

25 had originated from the 30th Personnel Centre?

Page 24604

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13 English transcripts.

14

15

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18

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20

21

22

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24

25

Page 24605

1 A. Yes, correct. And the document came from the 30th Personnel

2 Centre if it had the stamp of the 30th Personnel Centre on it with the VP

3 3001 code on it.

4 MR. GROOME: Now, Your Honours, I'm going to work with the witness

5 and put to the witness a number of personnel records, beginning with his

6 own. I have kept the records for each individual in the same tab as I

7 believed that would be the way to avoid confusion. I hope it works out

8 that way. The particular documents that I will refer to have been

9 indicated with coloured tabs. I will refer to those tabs and also the

10 last few digits of the ERN and ask the Chamber to advise me if it is

11 becoming confusing, and I will try to -- to deal with it as clearly as

12 possible.

13 The first set of exhibits I'm going to ask the witness to deal

14 with, and we will attempt to do this on the Sanction system. It will be

15 the first document in the tab of the binder that Your Honours have. And I

16 would ask the director, this next series of documents in tab 5, I'd ask

17 that none of these be broadcast, as they would reveal the identify of this

18 witness. And if the amici could switch off their Sanction computer.

19 Q. Sir, the document that we can see on the screen now - it ends in

20 ERN number 2876 - what is this document?

21 A. Would you repeat that question, please.

22 Q. Can you summarise what the document is that we're looking at on

23 the screen. I believe you have a hard copy of it in your hand at the

24 moment.

25 A. This is a medical card or ID of which I am the owner. You can see

Page 24606

1 who my commander was. It states when I began working first and when I

2 received medical insurance from the army first. You can see my name and

3 surname and the place of residence.

4 On the second page, where it says "PS1" are stamps indicating that

5 I am insured, I have health insurance and military insurance by the 30th

6 Personnel Centre, VP 3001 Belgrade, the military post code.

7 Q. Now, the address that's indicated here, it's an address in Bosnia;

8 is that not correct?

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 Q. We're in open session, so there's no need to go into specific

13 detail.

14 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that that specific street reference be

15 redacted.

16 Q. Sir, the address that's indicated here, is this military property

17 that you are -- you had the right to stay in?

18 A. It was a military institution and a military hotel, an army hotel,

19 in fact, which accommodated officers of the former JNA and later to become

20 the Army of Republika Srpska, including civilians too -- or rather,

21 workers employed in the army, who were in the Army of Republika Srpska.

22 Q. Now, the -- the second page that you've referred to, it bears a

23 number of stamps and it has a number of endorsements. Are these markings

24 intended to indicate that you are still an active member of the 30th

25 Personnel Centre and entitled to certain medical benefits?

Page 24607

1 A. Yes, that is correct. And it states here that it is the military

2 post 3001 Belgrade, and that I received health insurance from that

3 military post.

4 Q. So two of these endorsements are from the 30th Personnel Centre in

5 Belgrade, and two of them are from Banja Luka; is that correct?

6 A. That is correct, yes. They were certified both in Banja Luka and

7 in Belgrade.

8 Q. Were you required to maintain similar medical cards for members of

9 your family?

10 A. Both for me and the members of my family. My family members

11 received insurance via the VP 3001 military post. The difference was that

12 for my family members I had to certify the IDs every year, once again in

13 Belgrade, and the military post was 3001 once again.

14 Q. The next document I'm going to ask you to look at can be found by

15 turning to the first green tab in tab 5 of Prosecution 505, and it's ERN

16 ending 2886. And that is being displayed on the screen in front of you.

17 Can you summarise what this document is for us, please.

18 A. This is a document on the basis of which my years of service are

19 acknowledged and certified for my pension calculations. It is a document

20 which was issued by the military post 3001, and it says "Confidential,"

21 and the date was the 24th of March, 1995. That means that it was through

22 the military post VP 3001, the 30th Personnel Centre, in fact, that we

23 received our pension insurance. We were insured for pensional purposes.

24 Now, what is interesting in this document is point 2, item 2.

25 Q. If I can just ask you to go through each point and ask you a

Page 24608

1 specific question. Point 2 - and it should be visible on the television

2 screen - can I first ask you to read that one sentence, and then I will

3 ask you to comment on its significance.

4 A. Point 2: This is double the pensionable years during the war,

5 recognised by VP 3001, the 30th Personnel Centre. And for 12 months -- if

6 you'd served 12 months, you would be given 24 months. 24 months would be

7 calculated. And this is something that one benefits when the situations

8 are extremely difficult and when members of the army are in a state of

9 war. Then your years would be double, doubled, your years of service.

10 Q. First I want to read you a particular line. It says here,

11 "Pursuant to Article 156, paragraph 1, and Article 157 of the law on the

12 Yugoslav army --" and it gives several gazette references, one being from

13 1993 and two being from 1994. Was it your understanding that your pension

14 benefits were determined by VJ law as it was established in Yugoslavia?

15 A. Our pension insurance was determined by the law governing the Army

16 of Yugoslavia and no other laws, because we were members of the 30th

17 Personnel Centre.

18 Q. Now, looking down where the calculation of the credits that you

19 have for your service, there's an entry -- the second entry says that

20 between the 6th of April, 1992 and the 10th of November, 1993 -- and it

21 has some other numbers. But then it has "12/24." What is the

22 significance of 12/24?

23 A. That 12/24 indicates that the person in question -- that the

24 pension credit of 24 months is given for 12 months, and it is the wartime

25 period of service, which is when the members are operational and perform

Page 24609

1 their duties in times of war.

2 Q. Does the time period 6th of April, 1992 to the 10th of November,

3 1993 indicate that according to the 30th Personnel Centre that time period

4 was -- was to be considered a combat period for the purposes of

5 calculating your pension?

6 A. Yes. Yes. According to this document, from the 6th of April,

7 1992, that is what is being recognised.

8 Q. Before I ask you to look at the second page, on the top right-hand

9 corner of the first page is the title "Years of Service Form." Is that

10 the name that refers to this particular document?

11 A. Yes. This is a form. And in the military computer centre, that

12 is where they calculate pension entitlements and the years of service

13 involved are longer than those that were actually involved.

14 Q. Now if I can ask you to look at the second page of the document --

15 or I apologise. Perhaps it's all on the same page. I want to draw your

16 attention to the person who signed this document. Can you tell us the

17 name of that person.

18 A. The officer in charge who signed this document is Ljubomir Lalic,

19 Colonel, who worked at the 30th Personnel Centre. This was established on

20 the 24th of May, 1994.

21 Q. And the seal that we see to the left of his signature, 3001, is

22 that the stamp of the 30th Personnel Centre?

23 A. Yes. Yes. That is the seal of the 30th Personnel Centre,

24 Belgrade.

25 Q. The translation of this document records his last name as being

Page 24610

1 spelled L-a-t-i-c. Is that correct?

2 A. Ljubomir Lalic, L-a-l-i-c is correct, so the letter is "L" as in

3 Luxembourg.

4 Q. What was your understanding -- if you had a disagreement about how

5 your pension benefits were calculated, where did you have to go, according

6 to your understanding, to appeal the decision reflected in Lalic's

7 determination?

8 A. If anybody would have anything to appeal in this regard, in

9 respect of this decision, it was exactly prescribed, how the appeal were

10 to be carried out, that the appeal should be submitted in two copies to

11 the supreme military court in Belgrade.

12 Q. Now if I can draw your attention to another document, another Year

13 of Service Form. This would be the second green tab or second green

14 sticker in tab 5 of 505, ending in ERN 2884. Can I ask you to just

15 describe this document very briefly for us.

16 A. Yes. The document is quite identical to the previous one that we

17 had discussed. However, this document was registered by the military post

18 in Banja Luka, and there is a certain delay involved of five or six months

19 in 1995. This is due to the fact that all documents that were written

20 earlier on were written five or six months later in Republika Srpska in

21 this form of document.

22 Q. And who was the signatory on this document?

23 A. This document was signed by the commander of the 851st Battalion,

24 Colonel Bosko Kulic. The 851st Battalion was stationed in Banja Luka.

25 Q. And where does this document -- where is it purported that this

Page 24611

1 document was generated?

2 A. This document, GS-7, was created in Banja Luka.

3 Q. If I can now draw your attention to the next document. This would

4 be the red sticker in tab 5 of Prosecution Exhibit 505, ERN ending 2888.

5 And, sir, could I ask you to briefly describe what type of document we are

6 looking at.

7 A. This is a document that was issued by the general staff of the

8 Army of Yugoslavia, the Secretary for Mobilisation and Manpower. And it

9 has to do with recognising double number of years of service.

10 Q. And is this a decision granting you that double years of service

11 benefit?

12 A. Yes. Yes. This decision grants double years of service from the

13 6th of April, 1992 onwards.

14 Q. And is it also signed by Colonel Lalic?

15 A. Yes, it was signed by Colonel Ljubomir Lalic, by the authority

16 given him by the chief, and it was signed in Belgrade.

17 Q. According to this document, where are you stationed? Where are

18 you posted?

19 A. According to this document, I am stationed at military post 3001,

20 Belgrade. For your information, I was never in the war -- never in

21 Belgrade during the war.

22 Q. Aside from any required training, were you ever posted to any

23 assignment in Belgrade?

24 A. No, not at all.

25 Q. And does this document, like the last one, refer to determinations

Page 24612

1 to be made on the basis of law of the Yugoslav army as well as appeals to

2 be made to the Yugoslav army military court?

3 A. Yes. This document, if it was adopted on the basis of the law on

4 the Army of Yugoslavia and if I were to have anything to appeal in respect

5 of this document, then I would have to submit that appeal to the supreme

6 military court in Belgrade within 30 days after having received the

7 document myself.

8 Q. My last question regarding this document is to ask you to explain

9 the number at the very top of the document. I'd ask you not to read it,

10 but does this -- is this number a personal identification number for you?

11 A. This is a personnel identification number. It includes the former

12 and the latter parts contained therein.

13 Q. The three --

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, excuse me. Let us go back to the place

15 of the station, of his station. You referred to from military post 3001

16 and this document refers to his place of station.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the form reads his name --

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

19 MR. GROOME: -- from military post 3001, Belgrade.

20 JUDGE KWON: So that is your -- his assertion.

21 MR. GROOME: According to this document, he's recorded as serving

22 from that military post.

23 JUDGE KWON: Did he not say that he belonged to this unit?

24 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

Page 24613

1 MR. GROOME: It is his testimony that he did in fact belong to

2 this unit, although he never served in Belgrade.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MAY: As I understand it, this was the term which was used

5 for officers who were in fact in BiH.

6 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: But remained paid and the rest of it, according to the

8 Prosecution, by the VJ.

9 MR. GROOME: That's correct.

10 JUDGE MAY: That's the point.

11 MR. GROOME: That's correct.

12 JUDGE MAY: They were given this military post number.

13 MR. GROOME: That's correct.

14 Q. That personal identification number, as it's important for other

15 documents we will look at here, the first three letters are made up of

16 your initials plus the initial of your father; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. And the first six digits of that seven-digit number is your date

19 of birth; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. And one final question about this document - and if I could draw

22 the Chamber's attention to the original on the screen - was this document

23 typed up especially for you or was it a form in which just your

24 information was typed into?

25 A. This document was for me only. And inter alia what can be seen in

Page 24614

1 the left-hand corner is that it was submitted to me, that I received a

2 copy, and that it is used for receiving pension benefits -- or rather, my

3 pension entitlement.

4 Q. Now if I could ask you to look at the last document. This would

5 be marked by a stick -- a blue sticker. And it's 505, tab 5, ERN ending

6 in 2883. I want to ask you some particular questions about this document.

7 First: Do you recognise it and does it pertain to you?

8 A. Yes, I recognise this document, and it pertains to me.

9 Q. And this document, was this document sent to both the 30th

10 Personnel Centre in Belgrade and the specific location in Bosnia where you

11 were actually physically located during this time period?

12 A. This document was signed and validated in Banja Luka because it

13 says, "The military battalion that is located in Banja Luka." And it says

14 in this document that I am assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre of the

15 general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

16 Q. And where does it say your duty post is?

17 A. It does not say here that I was assigned. This has to do with

18 promotion with a particular -- it has to do with a particular date. And

19 then it is said that I am at the 30th Personnel Centre.

20 Q. Now, could I ask you to describe how you were paid during your

21 years of service when you were located in Bosnia. And let's focus on the

22 period after the official withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia.

23 A. After the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army, or rather,

24 after the establishment of Republika Srpska, the Army of Republika Srpska

25 was established too. And then persons who had served in the JNA until

Page 24615

1 then became -- became persons who were on the payroll of the Army of

2 Yugoslavia, the VJ. And all these persons who were attached to the 30th

3 Personnel Centre were paid by the Army of Yugoslavia, therefore.

4 Q. During your entire service in the army in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did

5 you ever receive any money in the form of payment from either the VRS army

6 or the Republika Srpska government?

7 A. As for direct payment by the government of Republika Srpska, I did

8 not receive a single dinar from them. Payment was made exclusively in

9 Yugoslav dinars, and it was regulated as follows: We received money in

10 cash. Until the Posavina Corridor was established, this was regulated in

11 the following way: A helicopter went to Belgrade with officers from the

12 financial service, and after the Posavina Corridor was taken, then they

13 travelled by land. As proof of what I got for a given month, there is

14 this form, like the one you see on the screen right now, which shows that.

15 Q. What's depicted on the screen now is Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab

16 6. The form is a largely illegible form, but do you recognise this as

17 being one of your payslips which you provided to the Office of the

18 Prosecution?

19 A. Yes. This is my payslip where my name and surname are referred

20 to, my rank, how much was paid, the first part of my salary, and how much

21 the remainder was. There is a date and also my years of pensionable

22 service. And this was calculated by the military computer centre.

23 Q. On your payslip, is it indicated where you were physically posted

24 during your time in Bosnia?

25 A. The military post from Banja Luka is referred to here.

Page 24616

1 Q. And is it also indicated on this payment slip where this payment

2 slip originated from, where it was printed?

3 A. It is only mentioned here that it was done at the computer centre.

4 I can't really read all of this. It's quite illegible. I received this

5 form from the officers of the financial service as proof of payment, proof

6 of how much money I had received and how much money was paid into my

7 personal account.

8 Q. You've just been handed a hard copy of the document. Is it any

9 more legible on that?

10 A. It is correct. My name and surname are there and my rank, the

11 date when the payment was made, the military post code, number such and

12 such, Banja Luka, the code of the person concerned, my personal account

13 number, bank account number, and also that this was done by the military

14 computer centre.

15 Q. Do you know where that centre was located?

16 A. I got this from the officers of the financial service when they

17 returned from Belgrade and when they collected our salaries.

18 Q. I want to now draw your attention or turn your attention to the

19 topic of identification papers. While you were serving in Bosnia after

20 the official withdrawal of the JNA, what in the way of identification

21 documents were you issued or did you have in your possession?

22 A. While serving in the Yugoslav People's Army, every officer of the

23 Yugoslav People's Army had to have a military identity card.

24 Q. And did you have such a card?

25 A. We did, all the time. For example, when the Yugoslav People's

Page 24617

1 Army withdrew in 1992, and then all the way up to 1996, the main

2 identification document was the ID card of the former Yugoslav People's

3 Army that was validated in Belgrade.

4 MR. GROOME: I ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit

5 505, tab 7.

6 Q. Is this a photocopy of your identification documents?

7 A. Yes. This is a copy of my military ID with my name and surname

8 and all the necessary details. Finally, it was validated by military post

9 3001, Belgrade, and it was valid until 1999, the 31st of December, 1999.

10 Q. Can I draw your attention to an endorsement of the 31st of

11 December, 1999, an endorsement by Colonel Bosko Mijic. Do you know who he

12 was and where he was assigned?

13 MR. GROOME: That's ERN number ending 2896.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have to make a correction. It's

15 not the way you put it. It was signed by Colonel Gojko Mijic.

16 MR. GROOME:

17 Q. And who was this person? Where was he assigned?

18 A. It's a colonel who worked in the 30th Personnel Centre. He worked

19 on these matters.

20 Q. Now, you just a moment ago referred to endorsements by the 30th

21 Personnel Centre or military post VP 3001. Could I ask you to turn to

22 that page. And that's ERN number ending 2899. Am I correct in saying

23 that of the four endorsements here, three were done in Banja Luka and one

24 was done in Belgrade at the 30th Personnel Centre?

25 A. Yes, that is correct. One was done in Belgrade, where it says

Page 24618

1 "Military post 3001, Belgrade." And the other one is from the military

2 post in Banja Luka. The first one was when I just started working.

3 Q. Now, during the period of your service in Bosnia from 1992 after

4 the JNA officially withdrew up until after 1995, into 1996, were you ever

5 issued a similar document or an official military identification card from

6 the VRS army?

7 A. Until 1995? Is that what you are asking?

8 Q. Yes, during that time period, 1992 until 1995, the end of 1995.

9 A. In the period from 1992 to 1996, the only document was this former

10 military ID of the former Yugoslav People's Army that was validated in

11 Belgrade, and that was the only identification document.

12 Q. Did there come a time when you were in fact issued a military

13 identification card by the Army of the Republika Srpska? And if so, when

14 was that?

15 A. In 1996, when IFOR entered the area, sometime around then, we got

16 IDs of the Army of Republika Srpska that were issued sometime in the month

17 of July or August.

18 Q. The witness is indicating that he cannot hear. I'd ask maybe the

19 usher to check. Are you able to hear my voice now?

20 A. It's this military ID that is on the monitor now. It includes my

21 name and surname and also my identification number, personal

22 identification number, the stamp of the military post that I had been

23 assigned to in the Army of Republika Srpska, where this military post is,

24 and also the date when it was issued. It was issued in August 1996.

25 Q. The number that's indicated here, is that the same number unique

Page 24619

1 to you that we saw earlier on some of your other personnel documents,

2 consisting of three letters and six digits?

3 MR. GROOME: And excuse me, for the record, we are referring to

4 Prosecution --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Groome, please.

6 MR. GROOME: For the record, we are referring to Prosecution

7 Exhibit 505, tab 8.

8 A. Yes, that is correct. It is the same identification number,

9 because the registration number is identical to the one that was referred

10 to earlier on, with the initials of the name and surname and the first

11 letter of the father's name, and it also includes the date of birth.

12 Q. And who is the issuing officer of this identification document?

13 A. It was issued -- it was issued in Banja Luka, Lieutenant Colonel

14 Kosta Kiso.

15 Q. And do you know of that person and where that person was assigned?

16 A. That's a lieutenant colonel who was assigned to the ViPVO of

17 Republika Srpska.

18 Q. Now, after August of 1996, you had in your possession two military

19 identification documents, one for the Yugoslav army and one for the Army

20 of Republika Srpska. What was your understanding about which document you

21 were to produce if you were called upon to do so by members of the IFOR

22 force?

23 A. Well, if IFOR members or, later, SFOR members were to ask for my

24 ID, the only document I would have to show was the one that you just

25 showed on the screen now. Otherwise, if I had shown the previous military

Page 24620

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Page 24621

1 ID, there would be the possibility of them arresting me as a member of the

2 Army of Yugoslavia in Bosnia.

3 JUDGE KWON: And the identity number, is that the one used only in

4 the military or is it the one which is -- which can be used as a citizen

5 generally? Because it says, "Citizen's personal identity number."

6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I may ask a few questions to clarify

7 that.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

9 MR. GROOME:

10 Q. On this document, are there actually two identification numbers,

11 both military and citizen identification numbers?

12 A. First we are going to say that it was issued by military post

13 7070, Banja Luka. And the first number is the personal identification

14 number of citizens, that is the number that any citizen has, irrespective

15 of the military. And the other one is the registration number of my

16 military ID, issued by the Army of Republika Srpska, which is identical to

17 the previous one. And we've already explained this a short while ago,

18 what these three letters meant, and also the number.

19 JUDGE KWON: So six digits. Thank you.

20 MR. GROOME: Yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. To put it very precisely, this

22 is the date of birth, the first two digits, the day, and the second -- the

23 third and fourth are the month of birth, and the following two are the

24 year of birth.

25 MR. GROOME:

Page 24622

1 Q. This system that you've described with respect to your military

2 identification documents, was this something that was unique to you or are

3 you aware of other officers in similar situations with similar sets of

4 documents issued in the way you've described?

5 A. Documents of this kind, like the ones I showed, were ones that all

6 the members of the 30th Personnel Centre had.

7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, is that a convenient place to break?

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn now.

9 Witness B-127, we must ask you to come back, please, next Tuesday.

10 I'm sorry we won't be sitting for the next few days. If you would come

11 back on Tuesday, we'll conclude your evidence then.

12 How much longer do you think you might be, Mr. Groome?

13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I think about 40 minutes.

14 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

16 at 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday

17 the 22nd day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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