Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26114

1 Tuesday, 9 September 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it's three 92 bis witnesses today, but

7 before we come to those, can I respectfully remind the Chamber that the

8 witness we seek to call tomorrow is subject to an application yet to be

9 resolved, and I didn't know if the Chamber was in a position to assist us

10 for planning purposes.

11 JUDGE MAY: Which witness is that?

12 MR. NICE: Mr. Van Baal

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Van Baal. We will let you have a decision this

14 morning.

15 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like for the record to say

17 that I don't think it is in order -- actually, I don't think what Mr. Nice

18 said on Thursday was in order, while I wasn't here, because he said that I

19 have some sort of scheme according to which -- and pattern, which is why I

20 was absent on Thursday. From that, it would emerge that I myself,

21 according to this pattern, organised every day last week to have been kept

22 here for several hours, which means that I myself curtailed my time for

23 rest and preparation, and it would appear, according to that logic, that I

24 organised the prolongation of the work here. And quite simply, I should

25 like to state that that kind of statement on a moral and intellectual

Page 26115

1 level at which this so-called entire -- so-called indictment is based.

2 And for you I have a criticism personally, Mr. May, because you

3 drew conclusions without having --

4 JUDGE MAY: I'm not going to listen to this, Mr. Milosevic. In

5 your absence, a comment was made by the Prosecutor as to a pattern of your

6 illness. He went no further than that and made no further suggestions. If

7 he had done, we would have ordered something to be done about it.

8 As for any other orders we may have made, we will consider the

9 position. We now have a medical report, and we'll consider the position

10 further.

11 Now, have you got any other submissions?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I was just going to say,

13 Mr. May, that before you collected all the pertinent information, you drew

14 conclusions, and you could have come by that information from your staff,

15 either from the detention centre or the medical staff.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. We will have the next witness.

17 MR. AGHA: The Prosecution would like to call Witness B-1058.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, in the meantime, perhaps, since we're

20 waiting for the witness to come, Your Honours have all been distributed

21 with a package. Would Your Honours be so kind as perhaps to give that an

22 exhibit number, please.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll get the next exhibit number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P531.

25 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps the registrar would note we'll do without the

Page 26116

1 P numbers in this case. I know other cases do, but we don't. Just give

2 it -- Prosecution numbers get the straight number. 531.

3 MR. AGHA: I'd just like to clarify, Your Honours; it should be

4 tendered under seal.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd take a seat.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1058

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Agha:

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We can raise the blinds and go on.

15 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness her pseudonym

16 sheet, which can be found at tab number 1 of your package.

17 JUDGE MAY: We can do that, but is there any reason why the blinds

18 should not be raised? Can we raise them, please.

19 MR. AGHA:

20 Q. Witness, is that your name on the top of that sheet, please?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that sheet has been signed by you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. AGHA: Could I kindly also please show the witness the 92 bis

Page 26117

1 package. This can be found at tab 2, Your Honours.

2 Q. Witness, is this the statement you made before investigators of

3 the Tribunal?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And, Witness, is this also the statement which you certified and

6 declared before the court officers of the Tribunal?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, I'd also like to show the witness a

9 document that is at tab 4 of your binder. Tab 3. I beg your pardon.

10 Q. Witness, is this a document which you have made and also signed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. AGHA: Your Honours, this is a 92 bis witness, so if it

14 pleases Your Honours, I'll just briefly read out the essence of the

15 witness's testimony.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MR. AGHA: At the time of the incidents mentioned in this summary,

18 the witness had been living in Zvornik with her husband and two sons for

19 the last 20 years. Prior to the war in Zvornik, a majority of the

20 population were Muslim.

21 In 1991, the witness saw the fall of Vukovar in Croatia on

22 Belgrade television. At the time, she could hardly believe this and

23 thought that she was watching old World War II footage. In March 1992,

24 she saw on television the events in Bijeljina, which again she could

25 hardly believe. However, her sister, who was living in Bijeljina, told

Page 26118

1 the witness that it was true and that their other sister's two sons had

2 been murdered outside the garrison in Bijeljina.

3 The first indications of the spreading of war to Zvornik occurred

4 a few days before the attack on Zvornik when there was small-arms fire

5 coming from Mali Zvornik and the arrival of tanks in the area.

6 On April the 8th, negotiations were held in Mali Zvornik with

7 Arkan, who represented the Serbs. Witness B-1237 was present who, after

8 the meeting, came to the witness and told her that the situation was grave

9 and advised her to leave.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down, thank you.

11 MR. AGHA: I beg your pardon, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MAY: You're being asked to slow down.

13 MR. AGHA: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

14 The witness, however, decided to stay as she had Serb friends and

15 had not done anything wrong.

16 The attack on Zvornik commenced later in the evening when Zvornik

17 was shelled from Mali Zvornik. The witness and other people who were

18 living in her apartment block in Filipa Kljajica Street took cover in the

19 cellar of the building. The cellar became full. In the cellar there were

20 about 12 men, 15 to 16 women, three children and two babies.

21 In the morning at about 10.00, the witness heard a strong

22 detonation and the door to the cellar was exploded open. Immediately

23 after the door was opened, about ten soldiers wearing camouflage uniforms,

24 black wooly hats rolled down as masks, and fingerless gloves burst into

25 the cellar and threatened them with long rifles. The witness could tell

Page 26119

1 that they were Serbs by their accents.

2 The people in the cellar were told to hand over their weapons and

3 the men were ordered outside to be searched. No one in the cellar had any

4 weapons, not even a pocket knife. The women and children were rushed out

5 of the cellar. However, the witness saw the men from the cellar with

6 their hands on their heads and with their backs facing the apartment

7 building.

8 The witness was the last person out of the cellar and was ordered

9 not to look round and to go to the SUP building. One soldier forced the

10 witness to move by putting a rifle to her back and cursed her.

11 After the witness had walked about 20 kilometres [sic] from the

12 cellar, she heard a simultaneous burst of gunfire from behind. The

13 witness tried to look around, but the soldiers poked her in the back with

14 the rifles and prevented her from doing so. According to the witness, the

15 gunshots could only have come from the area outside the apartment building

16 where the men from the cellar were lined up.

17 On the way to the SUP building, the witness saw two dead bodies

18 lying outside houses. Loud Chetnik music was also being played out of

19 cassette players as the witness walked down the street. The witness and

20 the others were made to go inside the library which is opposite the SUP

21 building where other soldiers were abusive to them and cursing Alija

22 Izetbegovic.

23 The soldiers in the library told the witness that they were

24 Seselj's men and that they were the good guys and that all the killings

25 had been done by Arkan's men. The witness knew that this was not true as

Page 26120

1 Seselj's men had also fully participated in the killing of the men in the

2 cellar.

3 Whilst the witness was in the library, a Serb woman named Vera was

4 allowed by the soldiers to go back to the apartment building to change her

5 clothes. When Vera came back, she told another lady in the library that

6 she had seen the awful sight of the dead bodies of the men who had been

7 taken out of the cellar. Other women who later arrived in the library

8 also said that they had seen the dead bodies of the witness's men outside

9 their apartment building.

10 Later in the day, Arkan came to the library and told them that he

11 would send buses to pick them up. The buses arrived on the same day, and

12 the witness and the others were herded onto them. Whilst travelling

13 through Zvornik, the witness saw many other dead bodies lying in the

14 garden of houses. Before the bus left Zvornik, four men were taken off

15 the bus. The witness never saw these men again. The witness was dropped

16 off in Banja Koviljaca in Serbia.

17 About a week later, the witness and a friend returned to Zvornik

18 to find out what had happened to the bodies of their men. The witness was

19 directed to the Serb headquarters in Karakaj where their commander told

20 her that the men she was looking for were not on any of their lists and

21 she could go home.

22 As the witness was leaving to walk the three kilometres back into

23 Zvornik, she saw a truck which was about to leave, and the commander told

24 the witness to get a lift back on the truck. The soldiers in the truck,

25 however, were not prepared to take the "balijas," so they had to walk on

Page 26121

1 foot.

2 The witness then went to see Grujic who was president of the Serb

3 municipality. Grujic, however, told the witness that he could not help

4 her and that there was no longer a place for Muslims in Zvornik.

5 The witness briefly went back to her own apartment block and at

6 the spot where she had last seen the men from the cellar saw her husband's

7 hat and one of her son's sports shoes on the ground covered in blood.

8 There was also blood which was peppered bullet holes on the walls. On the

9 ground, the witness also saw a number of spent bullets and three or four

10 garotte wires.

11 Of the men who were taken from the cellar and killed outside, one

12 was the witness's husband and two others were her sons, aged 22 and 24 at

13 that time.

14 Now, if Your Honours may permit me, I would just like to show,

15 under seal, one or two exhibits and ask the witness to comment on those.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MR. AGHA:

18 Q. Now, the first photograph is at tab number 4, and I would kindly

19 ask the witness, please, to tell me if she can identify who that person is

20 in the picture.

21 A. My husband. My husband.

22 Q. And could I also please ask the witness to look at the picture

23 which is in tab number 5 and ask the witness, please, to identify the

24 people in that picture if she can.

25 A. My two sons.

Page 26122

1 Q. And finally, I would like to show the witness another picture

2 which has already previously been tendered.

3 A. Arkan and that other associate of his. I don't know what his name

4 is. But one is Arkan.

5 JUDGE MAY: Is there an exhibit number for that exhibit, Mr. Agha.

6 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour. 414, tab 1.

7 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

8 MR. AGHA:

9 Q. Thank you, Witness.

10 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honours. That finishes the evidence in

11 chief for this witness.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, before I start examining

14 this witness, I have a question. In point 7 of the statement, mention is

15 made of a man by name and surname, somebody who attended negotiations in

16 Zvornik, in actual fact. Now, is that a protected name or not?

17 JUDGE MAY: I don't recognise it for the minute, but I will ask

18 Mr. Agha's assistance.

19 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, that indeed is a protected witness who has

20 already given evidence in these proceedings.

21 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, it's protected then.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it the protected witness who Mr.

23 Agha Khan mentioned under pseudonym of 1237? Is that the one?

24 JUDGE MAY: We will get it checked.

25 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour, protective measures.

Page 26123

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Fine.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Madam 1058, I'm just going to ask you questions

4 which I consider to be important in order to establish the truthfulness of

5 this. I shall do my best not to hurt you with any of my questions in view

6 of the fact that you lost your husband and your son, according to what it

7 says here in your statement.

8 A. Two sons.

9 Q. You said that on Belgrade television in 1991, you saw the station

10 reporting about the events in Vukovar, and in March 1992, a film, as you

11 say, about the war in Bijeljina; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You yourself say that you believed that it was intimidation,

14 instilling fear and that that was something -- some footage from World War

15 II; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you learnt about both these events via Belgrade television, and

18 you didn't actually believe what you were seeing; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You also say, in paragraph 5, that your sister, who lived in

21 Bijeljina, in a telephone conversation told you that she was so frightened

22 that she couldn't exactly tell you what was happening in Bijeljina; is

23 that right?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Well, is it also true that the sons of your sister were also

Page 26124

1 killed?

2 A. Of my other sister, not the one I -- not this one.

3 Q. You mean not the one you were talking to on that occasion?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances under which they were killed?

6 Do you know?

7 A. Well, they were killed because Arkan's men took them away to the

8 garrison, and the children later asked to go and see their grandmother to

9 tell her where they were and that they would come back straight away. The

10 children did come back, but in coming back, they shot at them.

11 Q. Do you know who shot at them?

12 A. I wasn't there, so I didn't see it myself, but they were killed by

13 Arkan's men and by the Serbs.

14 Q. Did anybody tell you who shot at them of the people who were

15 there?

16 A. Well, nobody was there when they killed them. They just met them

17 on the road.

18 Q. How many people were killed in Bijeljina, lost their lives?

19 A. I don't know. I can't say. But many people died. How many

20 exactly, I really don't know.

21 Q. You say, paragraph 6, that you didn't know until the very outbreak

22 of the conflict in Zvornik that the conflict would take place; is that

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it also true that everyone else was saying that there would be

Page 26125

1 no conflict?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then you say that there were negotiations and that a man who

4 had the pseudonym 1237 here and who was an official in Zvornik attended;

5 is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you know that also because later on that same man who attended

8 the negotiations came to your house and told you that it had been agreed

9 that the Muslims should surrender their weapons; is that right?

10 A. He said that things would not be good and that we should flee.

11 Q. He told you to flee or that it wouldn't be a good thing for you to

12 flee?

13 A. He told us to flee, that things would not be good.

14 Q. And you say in paragraph 7 that this man, after that meeting,

15 "came to our house and told us that it had been agreed that the Muslims

16 surrender their weapons."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you know what position that man held?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You didn't know what position he had in the municipality or the

21 Territorial Defence?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. Well, tell me, then, why did he come to your particular house?

24 Was he a friend or relative of yours?

25 A. He had a sister.

Page 26126

1 Q. In your house?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So he said that it had been agreed for the Muslims to hand over

4 the weapons they owned. Those people who broke into the cellar in Zvornik

5 told us that weapons should be handed in and that the men should be

6 searched, and that is how they took out the men.

7 JUDGE MAY: Can I remind you, please, both the witness and

8 Mr. Milosevic, remember that this has to be interpreted, so can you leave

9 breaks between the questions and the answers.

10 Now, you should have that in mind, Mr. Milosevic, because you've

11 done it often enough before, but it will be new to the witness, but can

12 you both leave breaks.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. May.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I was saying that he told you that the Muslims should hand over

16 the weapons they possessed, because I'm reading from your statement in

17 paragraph 7: "He told us that an agreement had been made for the Muslims

18 to hand over their weapons." Is that right, Madam 1058?

19 A. He knew that we didn't have any weapons.

20 Q. I not entering into that.

21 A. But I don't know.

22 Q. But that's what you said in your statement, and you confirmed it a

23 moment ago and signed it. So you don't remember that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Very well. But he also advised you to leave Zvornik.

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Page 26128

1 A. Yes, he did.

2 Q. Though you yourself claimed that you had more friends among the

3 Serbs than among the Muslims.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Tell me, do you know what he had given similar advice to other

6 Muslims?

7 A. Those of us who were in the cellar.

8 Q. Very well. So only to you who were there, that's how you know.

9 That's what you know about.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In paragraph 8 you say the attacks started in the afternoon of the

12 8th of April.

13 A. In the evening, yes.

14 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear that question.

15 JUDGE MAY: Can you repeat the question, please.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Are you quite sure that the attack on Zvornik, as you describe it

18 in paragraph 8, commenced on the 8th of April? You are specifying now in

19 the evening of the 8th of April.

20 A. Very well.

21 Q. And that is when you went to the cellar of your building?

22 A. No. We went before that.

23 Q. Before that?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. What -- what prompted you to go into the basement before then if

Page 26129

1 the attack started later? Had you been informed about the conflict

2 beginning?

3 A. Because they were saying that we should seek shelter in the

4 basements, that we shouldn't go outside, that we shouldn't walk in the

5 streets, that we should seek shelter in the basement.

6 Q. And who told you that?

7 A. Well, on the radio there were such announcements.

8 Q. That was radio Zvornik, I assume, the local radio.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that is when you went to the basement of your building?

11 A. It was a Sunday, I don't remember the date, when we went down to

12 the basement, and we stayed there throughout.

13 Q. As you say, there were another 12 or so men, 15 women and

14 children; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you spent the night there up until 10.00 a.m. on the next

17 morning, that is the 9th of April; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell me, please, the men who were with you that night, did they

20 leave at all?

21 A. No. No, they didn't.

22 Q. So they stayed in the shelter all the time?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And as Mr. Kahn noted a moment ago, none of them were armed; is

25 that right?

Page 26130

1 A. No one.

2 Q. So you're quite sure of that?

3 A. Quite sure.

4 Q. And then about 10.00 you say there was a strong detonation which

5 caused the door to break down and ten men broke in, wearing camouflage

6 uniform, you say.

7 A. Ten or so. I can't be quite sure about the number, but ten or so.

8 Q. Can you describe those camouflage uniforms.

9 A. You know very well what camouflage uniforms looked like. You know

10 that very well. Black. And you could just see their mouths and eyes.

11 Those were the caps which covered their faces, with slits for eyes and

12 mouth. You know that very well. I don't need to describe them to you.

13 Q. What did they want from you?

14 A. They wanted the men to come outside, allegedly to be searched.

15 Q. How many of them were speaking?

16 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

17 Q. You say that by their accent, by their dialect, you judged that

18 they were from Serbia. So you must have heard them speak.

19 A. Yes, that's right. Two or three of them. I don't remember.

20 Q. You can't say what the others were on the basis of their speech?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. And is it possible that some of them were locals?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Very well. You say that you were separated from the men, and the

25 women and children were ordered to move towards the SUP of Zvornik, and

Page 26131

1 the men stayed behind in front of the entrance to the building. Is that

2 exactly how it happened?

3 A. Yes, exactly so.

4 Q. Now, tell me, please, how much time went by until you heard the

5 shots.

6 A. Five minutes, not more.

7 Q. How far had you gone in those five minutes?

8 A. Maybe 200 metres.

9 Q. At the time, you didn't know what had happened to the men from

10 your building; is that right?

11 A. They opened fire when we had moved away, some 200 metres away,

12 they started shooting. I started -- I wanted to turn around, however, the

13 soldier was pointing his automatic rifle at my back.

14 Q. So you didn't manage to turn around, and you couldn't see

15 anything.

16 A. No, they didn't let me.

17 Q. In paragraph 11, you say that moving towards the SUP you saw the

18 body of Hakija Sehic and Fehim Kujundzic, but you're not sure of that

19 because you couldn't see properly.

20 A. I am sure.

21 Q. Now you're sure?

22 A. Yes, I'm sure. I saw them.

23 Q. But as you say here that you didn't see it quite well, how is it

24 that you're quite sure that it was one of these two?

25 A. Of course I'm sure when they were my neighbours.

Page 26132

1 Q. And then you say that you saw a certain Izet. From what distance

2 did you see him?

3 A. About 400 metres. This is all one street.

4 Q. Very well. And how is it that you're sure from such a distance

5 that those were all bodies of Muslims and there wasn't a single Serb?

6 A. There was no distance; it wasn't far away.

7 Q. Very well. How far away it was is relative. You go on to say

8 that you were sure that Arkan's took part in all these killings; is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where were the local Serbs throughout that period of time?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Did you see anyone?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You say that those same soldiers broke into a sweet shop and

16 distributed sweets to children. Were there Muslim children among them?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So they were killing Muslims and giving Muslim children chocolates

19 and sweets.

20 A. Yes, to learn from the children whether there were any weapons,

21 who had those weapons, and so on.

22 Q. Why were they giving them sweets?

23 A. Because you know what children are like; they wanted to learn from

24 the children things.

25 Q. How do you know that they questioned them?

Page 26133

1 A. I was there.

2 Q. So you heard them questioning the children?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. And later on a Serb woman that is mentioned here by the name of

5 Vera, so I won't read out her surname, and two Muslim women, Raza and

6 Sadija - is that right - and a third, Zuhra, told you that they had seen

7 dead people in front of your building; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And it was then that you had no doubts as to the fact that they

10 had been killed? That they had been killed; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, tell me, please, a week later you went to Zvornik again with

13 your sister from Bijeljina.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. To find out what had happened to all the people who had been with

16 you in the cellar; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then you say that you spoke to a person called Dragan Nikolic.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that after looking through two lists, he told you that he

21 hadn't seen the names of any family members that you were looking for on

22 those lists; is that --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So what was the conclusion you drew from that?

25 A. What had happened.

Page 26134

1 Q. Since you're speaking about wires and things, does that mean that

2 the men who were with you in the shelter were first tied up?

3 A. I didn't see it, so I can't say.

4 Q. So you didn't see anyone tying them up.

5 A. I didn't.

6 Q. And you heard shots five minutes after you had left the house?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Madam 1058, tell me, please, when did you see this person whom we

9 mentioned -- of course you can't remember these numbers. The pseudonym is

10 1237 of this person. When did you last see this man after he came to see

11 you after the negotiations? I don't want to mention his name as he is

12 protected.

13 A. I never saw him again since then.

14 Q. After he had told you to surrender your weapons and to leave?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. As he's a protected -- do you know that he was a witness here

17 sometime ago?

18 A. No, I don't know that.

19 Q. He testified here, saying, among other things, that he personally

20 saw, from a distance of 500 metres, your husband and son being killed.

21 A. Many people saw it.

22 Q. But that differs very much from what you are saying. Where are

23 the other ten people, then? He was talking about seeing the two of them.

24 JUDGE MAY: The witness can only say what she saw. Now, whether

25 somebody else claims to have seen something different from 500 metres away

Page 26135

1 is maybe a matter of comment, that's all, but the witness can't answer as

2 to what somebody else saw.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, this is allegedly a witness

4 of the killing, the testimony of an eyewitness, and quite clearly these

5 facts differ.

6 JUDGE MAY: Are you seriously suggesting that this witness is not

7 telling the truth in describing what happened when her husband and two

8 sons were killed? Are you suggesting that?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I just wish to establish

10 what truly happened, and the witness herself says that she didn't see it.

11 All she knows is that her family members were killed, but she doesn't know

12 under which circumstances nor where or how. She just assumes.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But -- just one moment. She saw them lined up,

14 facing the apartment building, with their hands on their heads. She then

15 heard the gunfire. Now, that is what she can say. Subsequently, they

16 were killed or they were killed at the time. But she can't take it any

17 further. That's her evidence. That's what she said happened.

18 Now, if there's any doubt about what happened, then of course you

19 can make a point to us. It will be up to us to decide. But I don't think

20 this witness can take it very much further. She said what she saw, and

21 there's no doubt that these men were killed.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The only question is whether they

23 were killed in battle or somebody shot them in cold blood.

24 JUDGE MAY: Are you seriously suggesting that these men were in

25 some sort of battle? Is that what you're seriously suggesting, and that

Page 26136

1 this witness is not telling the truth about her husband and two sons? If

2 you are, you should say so, so that she may deal with it.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I cannot claim anything

4 with respect to Zvornik because I don't know, but we do have two different

5 statements by this witness and Witness 1237.

6 JUDGE MAY: There is no point -- there is no point arguing about

7 it now. It will be for us to decide if there's any significance in these

8 differences which you claim. But really, we shouldn't detain this witness

9 here any more, but if you're suggesting in any way that she is not telling

10 the truth about what happened to her husband and two sons, then you should

11 say so.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not have any information about

13 this, Mr. May, as to what happened to her husband and her sons, but I do

14 have information about what the witness has been saying and what this

15 other witness said who is an alleged eyewitness. There is a major

16 difference involved.

17 JUDGE MAY: That is what you say. It will be a matter for us to

18 say whether there is any significance.

19 Now, have you any other questions for this witness or not?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a few questions.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. A very direct question, Madam 1058: Are you sure that your

23 husband and son were not participants in the battles in Zvornik and around

24 Zvornik on that day?

25 A. One hundred per cent certain. I vouch that with my very own life.

Page 26137

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the question.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never found out where they

3 were. Had they had any weapons, they would have been in the woods, they

4 would not have been in the cellar. You should understand that.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Since they were not found, it could not have been established how

7 they lost their lives. So you do not have any information about that, do

8 you?

9 A. You ask Grujic where he moved them, from one graveyard to another

10 grave and then to a third grave, where they were being taken from one

11 grave to another. It was Grujic who did that.

12 Q. I can't ask him about that. I don't know about him moving people

13 this way.

14 A. Well, I know that he did move from one grave to another.

15 Q. Tell me, Madam 1058, you left Zvornik on the 9th of April, 1992;

16 is that right?

17 A. Yes, when I was expelled.

18 Q. And a week later, you came back and again the same day you went

19 back to Bijeljina; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you only briefly returned on that day a week later.

22 A. I could not have stayed when they were expelling all Muslims,

23 expelling and killing them.

24 Q. Do you live in Zvornik nowadays?

25 A. No.

Page 26138

1 Q. And during the war, did you come to Zvornik again?

2 A. I came when they asked us to come and to report in order to

3 receive accommodation, but they killed many, many people, then caught them

4 and killed them. I didn't mention this in my statement. It's not in the

5 statement. I said it now so that you'd know.

6 Q. All right. When was this that you came to Zvornik again?

7 A. In the beginning of May.

8 Q. What year?

9 A. 1992.

10 Q. So a week after the 9th of April you were there and the beginning

11 of May yet again?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Why did you come again in the beginning of May?

14 A. They asked us to come and to register with the SUP, allegedly, in

15 order to receive accommodation. People who had houses, apartments, were

16 supposed to register their names so that it would be known that they were

17 alive so that they could get their property back or give it up.

18 Q. So did you register there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Why didn't you stay in your own house?

21 A. I couldn't stay.

22 Q. Could you please explain this? I don't understand. They asked

23 you to come to register there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And to continue living there normally?

Page 26139

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So why didn't you stay?

3 A. Well, they killed everybody.

4 Q. Oh, they killed everybody who came back?

5 A. Yes, all of those who registered and who stayed on. They were

6 killed.

7 Q. How much time did you spend this other time when you were there in

8 the beginning of May?

9 A. Three or four days. It's not in my statement, and I don't see why

10 you should ask me about this.

11 Q. Although it's not in your statement, you are speaking about it

12 now.

13 A. All right. I should make it clear that I know everything.

14 Q. I do want it to be established, what actually happened, that is.

15 Now, tell me, please, you recognised some people here in some

16 photographs. I received this file of yours.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The photographs of some persons whom you recognised.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And these are the people who barged into the cellar; is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes. No, not everybody. Arkan did not enter the cellar.

23 Q. I'm not talking about Arkan. You could have seen Arkan on

24 television.

25 A. No, not on television. I saw him myself.

Page 26140

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Page 26141

1 Q. All right. So you saw him yourself. Tell me, please, how could

2 you recognise these people who had been in the cellar if they, as you had

3 described it yourself, had caps drawn down their faces with slits for the

4 eyes and mouths only?

5 A. Not everybody was masked. I already said that. There were some

6 people who were not masked. They introduced themselves as being Seselj's

7 men. Those who were not masked said that they were Seselj's men.

8 Q. All right. That means that when you say that they entered the

9 cellar with wooly caps with slits for the eyes and mouth, that pertains

10 only to one part of them. The other part did not have caps.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So they were not masked.

13 A. Yes, but they were together.

14 Q. Why is it that you say this only now? In the statement you said

15 that people with wooly caps drawn over their heads and faces with slits

16 for their eyes and mouth, you mentioned that now.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you recognised them, they had these caps?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then you explained that some of them did not have caps.

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. How do you explain this now that some had caps and others didn't

23 when in the statement you said that everybody was wearing a cap?

24 A. I said that some did not wear caps. They introduced themselves as

25 being Seselj's men, and they did not wear any caps.

Page 26142

1 Q. So when they barged into the cellar they said --

2 A. Together. Together. Those who were masked, they took the men out

3 and killed them. And those who were not masked dealt with us, the women

4 and children.

5 Q. All right.

6 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. It may not matter very much how many

7 of them were masked and how many were not. But just let me get this

8 clear, please, Witness B-1058: Did these men say they were Seselj's men?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mrs. 1058, I'm going to quote your very own statement to you.

13 It's the end of paragraph 9: "As soon as the door opened, about ten

14 soldiers barged into the room."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. "Wearing camouflage uniforms and wooly caps across their heads,

17 and they pointed long rifles at us. The masks had slits for the eyes and

18 the mouth, and some of them also wore black fingerless gloves, leather

19 gloves."

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. So you describe this quite clearly, that masked people came in.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now you say that some people who walked in were masked and others

25 were not.

Page 26143

1 A. Behind them were those who were not masked. First the masked ones

2 got in and then the ones without masks. They were together. However, the

3 first ones to appear at the door were those with the masks.

4 Q. That means those you recognised here in these photographs. I'm

5 not talking about Arkan, he did not enter with him; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. They were behind them, and they were not wearing caps. They were

8 not masked, and those are the ones you recognised.

9 MR. AGHA: I apologise for butting in at this stage, but actually

10 these questions regarding Seselj's men and who said they were Seselj's and

11 who was participating in the cellar is covered actually in the addendum at

12 tab number 3, where, if I may kindly direct you to the second column --

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd go on. Yes. If you would just point

14 out the passage so that we can all see it and hear it.

15 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour. It's a passage which in the second

16 column on the English at the tab, and it says: "When we get towards the

17 SUP building, we were told to go into the library opposite the SUP

18 building. The soldiers who remained in the library were abusive to us and

19 cursed our mothers... They said that they were Seselj's men and that they

20 were the good guys whereas Arkan's men had done the killings. We all knew

21 that that was not true and that Seselj's men had fully participated in the

22 killings themselves."

23 So she's actually clearly stating that Seselj's and Arkan's men

24 participated in the killings, and she's made this just to make it

25 absolutely clear on this point because when she made her statement, she

Page 26144

1 clearly omitted to say all of the people who were there.

2 So she wanted to make this very point Mr. Milosevic is now making

3 clear to the Court.

4 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. All right, Mrs. 1058. These men you recognised are not among the

7 ten or so who barged into the cellar with wooly caps on their faces?

8 A. I don't know about that.

9 Q. Where did you see the ones you recognised? Could you explain that

10 to me, because they're not ones with the wooly caps who barged into your

11 cellar. Where did you see them?

12 A. I saw some in my sister's yard, sitting there. The next time I

13 saw him in a house, the best man of my sister, his house.

14 Q. When was this?

15 A. In 1992.

16 Q. How did this happen when you just dropped in after a week to ask

17 about these lists and you returned immediately?

18 A. My sister's place in Bijeljina. He was sitting there in the yard.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. In Janja. He was sitting in Janja in my sister's best man's

21 house.

22 Q. Oh, I understand now. The people you recognised.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. One you saw in Bijeljina sitting in the yard of your sister's

25 house and the other one you saw sitting in Janja.

Page 26145

1 A. Yes. No, no, no, no. He was in Bijeljina -- I mean in Zvornik.

2 Q. Where was he in Zvornik?

3 A. I can't remember where I saw him in Zvornik.

4 Q. All right. You saw one in Janja. You saw one in Bijeljina. At

5 the time when you saw this man in Janja and in Bijeljina, there were no

6 clashes. There was no fighting. You saw some people just sitting there;

7 is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did they have to do with the men who barged into your cellar

10 with masks on their faces?

11 A. Because he also had a higher position.

12 Q. I don't understand what you're saying.

13 A. He was holding a higher position.

14 Q. Who was holding a higher position?

15 A. The one I recognised.

16 Q. Where did you see him, at which position? What is this office he

17 held?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Thank you very much. No further questions.

20 MR. AGHA: Again, Your Honour, I'd like just to make clear that

21 this point about the recognition of photographs which Mr. Milosevic is

22 making is again covered in the addendum in the final paragraph. And as

23 you'll appreciate, the witness first made her statement in 1996.

24 This is at tab 3. And at tab 3, it clearly states: "When I

25 originally made my statement in 1996, I could remember what some of the

Page 26146

1 people looked like who I saw enter the cellar, and I identified those I

2 was shown pictures of which were attached to my statement." Which indeed

3 they are. "However, due to the passage of time, I'm now only definitely

4 able to identify Arkan in some of the photos which are attached to my

5 statement."

6 So she's clearly made it clear that more than -- nearly ten years

7 has passed and her recollection isn't so good. She's trying to be honest

8 about this.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall be very

11 brief, by think that it should be clarified for you, this particular

12 matter that has to do with the recognition of these men and what they said

13 there.

14 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] The statement that you gave on the 28th and the

16 29th of September was, after all, quite soon after everything that

17 happened, and here in paragraph 12 - so this is page 3 of the B/C/S

18 version - you said: "Whether we got to the SUP building, we were ordered

19 to go into the library opposite the SUP building. The soldiers who

20 remained in the library were abusive to us and cursed our mothers and

21 Alija Izetbegovic."

22 And then you say here -- that's what you say in 1996. And later

23 on you corrected it a bit: "They said that they were Arkan's men and

24 that they were the good guys, whereas Seselj's men had done all the

25 killings."

Page 26147

1 So that's the way you had put it then, that they had said to you

2 that they were Arkan's men. That is paragraph 12 of your statement. This

3 is the first statement you gave, after all. Can you explain this to the

4 Judges, how come this difference?

5 A. I don't remember. Well, maybe I was so upset that I put it the

6 other way round.

7 Q. Thank you. Please, during those days about which you are

8 testifying now, between all these sides, Muslims, Serbs, Croats, were

9 there any conflicts at all?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Any -- did anybody get hurt or killed during these conflicts at

12 all then?

13 A. In Zvornik during those first days, nobody had any weapons and

14 there were no war operations. They were only all over the place killing

15 people, et cetera.

16 Q. Was there a conflict round some hill? That's my last question.

17 A. The hill Kula. There was some fighting there.

18 Q. So were there any victims there?

19 A. I don't know. This is a bit further away from where I am.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE KWON: Madam 1058, when answering the questions from the

23 accused, you spoke about the -- Mr. Grujic moving bodies from one

24 graveyard to another and then to another, a third graveyard. Could you

25 elaborate on that. From whom did you hear that?

Page 26148

1 A. People talked about this, people who were watching from Mali

2 Zvornik. This is on the other side of the Drina only. They were watching

3 through binoculars and the president was giving orders, this Grujic, this

4 president, he was giving orders for this kind of transfer of corpses.

5 People who watched this through binoculars from the other bank of the

6 Drina River.

7 JUDGE KWON: Did somebody hear Grujic ordering such acts?

8 A. He gave orders for everything. Everything that was going on in

9 Zvornik took place on his orders.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

11 JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

12 MR. AGHA: No re-examination, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1058, that concludes your evidence. Thank

14 you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free

15 to go.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, for having asked me

17 to come and testify, to say the truth.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Could you just wait while these blinds are

19 lowered.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment, Mr. Groome. There's something I want

22 to talk about.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, there are two matters of evidence I could

25 deal with. First, Mr. Van Baal, we will admit his transcript under Rule

Page 26149

1 92 bis, subject to cross-examination.

2 There is one other matter which doesn't concern your part of the

3 case but it would be convenient to deal with it since we were talking of

4 it on our last hearing, and that concerns the statement of Braddock Scott,

5 Captain Braddock Scott, and there was a discussion as to whether the Trial

6 Chamber may consider calling him. We have considered that and we shall

7 not be calling him.

8 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MAY: If you would pass that on, please. Yes.

10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Witness B-1610.

11 He is the subject of protective measures, so I'd ask that he be brought in

12 before we lift the blinds.

13 JUDGE KWON: The transcript should say the Trial Chamber would not

14 be calling.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1610

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution will be seeking to

25 tender one binder containing 12 tabs of exhibits. Could I ask that a

Page 26150

1 number be assigned at this stage.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 532.

3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask we go into private session

4 for a preliminary matter.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 26151

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 Examined by Mr. Groome:

13 Q. Sir, your testimony has been received by the Chamber in written

14 form. I only have one question for you in addition to that.

15 MR. GROOME: I would ask that the witness be shown Exhibit 532,

16 tab 12. It is a photograph.

17 Q. And, sir, I ask you to take a look at this photograph and ask you:

18 Do you recognise the person in that photograph?

19 A. Yes, I do recognise him; it is Veljko Milankovic.

20 MR. GROOME: And Ms. Wee reminds me that I have forgotten

21 something. Could I ask that the witness be shown tab 1 of the same

22 exhibit, or a sheet. I'm sorry, we're a little bit disorganised this

23 morning. Can I ask that the witness be shown a sheet, and I will ask that

24 it be included as tab 13 of Exhibit 532.

25 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at that sheet of paper. Is that

Page 26152

1 your name on the top of that piece of paper?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, you can begin your

5 cross-examination, but we'll break off fairly soon because it will be time

6 for the adjournment, but you can certainly ask a few questions first.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1610, in paragraph 4 of your statement, which

10 you gave on the 22nd of October, 2001, you say that you had never been a

11 member of any political party; is that right?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. And you go on to say that even now you're not interested in

14 politics; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. However, that's not true. You did become a member of the SDA

17 party, and you said previously -- and I should like to draw your attention

18 to that, Mr. May, that we took this formulation -- to the effect that you

19 became a member of the SDA party during your stay in Germany.

20 A. That's not true. That's not correct.

21 Q. You can check it out and verify whether this was what was stated

22 previously. I can give you a detailed quote or, rather, the place you can

23 find it, but I can't give it in open session due to the restrictions

24 imposed.

25 So what you said on a previous occasion about your membership in

Page 26153

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Page 26154

1 the SDA party in Germany in 1993 you actually knew when you made your

2 statement in 2001. So why didn't you stipulate that then?

3 A. That's not true. I'm not a member of the SDA party.

4 Q. So that means you stated that erroneously in a previous

5 statement.

6 A. I didn't say it. I'm not a member of the SDA party, or any other

7 party, for that matter.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you have all this written

9 down and recorded, so I don't want to go back to that issue.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Now, you go on to say the following, and if you want me to tell

12 you the lines and pages, I can do so.

13 JUDGE MAY: Don't give the page numbers in open session. We can

14 deal with that, if we need to, in private session. Yes.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. In paragraph 8, you say that in 1991, a certain man whom you say

18 was from Knin, at a rally that was held of the SDS party in Prnjavor,

19 addressed the Serbs that had gathered there and said that they should sell

20 their last cow and buy weapons for themselves. Is that what you said?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You, of course, did not attend that SDS rally, I assume.

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. Well, how come you can claim that that is what this man said,

25 actually said?

Page 26155

1 A. I claim that on the basis of what my neighbours told me who were

2 passing by at the time.

3 Q. So there was an SDS rally, and some of your neighbours happened to

4 be passing by and heard the man say that and then told you who the man was

5 and what he said, and that is the basis you're testifying on; is that it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Now, you go on to say that in the Prnjavor

8 municipality, the first checkpoints appeared in 1991. Isn't that right?

9 You say that in paragraph 9 of your statement.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When was that in 1991 more exactly?

12 A. I don't know the exact date because I was in the Territorial

13 Defence myself, so I can't give you an exact date. I don't know.

14 Q. Well, was it the beginning, the middle, or the end of the year?

15 Can you tell us roughly? I know you can't tell us the exact date but you

16 must have a rough idea of when it was during that year because you are

17 testifying about it.

18 A. Well, it might have been sometime towards the end of 1991.

19 Q. I see. The end of 1991. Right. And you also say in that same

20 paragraph that most of those checkpoints were located next to a place

21 inhabited by Muslims. Is that what you said?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you mean to say that those checkpoints were erected in order to

24 control the Muslims and not in order to provide security on the territory

25 of the whole municipality? Is that what you're saying?

Page 26156

1 A. Because of the Muslims. And if you were Muslim, you had to have a

2 permit to be able to pass through the checkpoint, a pass.

3 Q. Well, as far as my information tells me, everybody had to have a

4 pass to go through the checkpoints, not only the Muslims.

5 A. Yes, that is true, except for the fact that the Muslims were

6 checked more strictly.

7 Q. I see. Now, these checkpoints, were they on the main road, the

8 main road running from Prnjavor towards Banja Luka?

9 A. Yes, that's right. They were also in Klasnice. There were

10 checkpoints there too.

11 Q. All right. If they were on the main read from Prnjavor to Banja

12 Luka, the main Prnjavor-Banja Luka road, that means that they were not

13 erected and not located just beside Muslim villages. They were simply put

14 up on the main road at all points where byroads connected with the main

15 road. That's right, isn't it?

16 A. No. There was the village of Lisnja, that's where there was a

17 checkpoint, towards Mravice. Right beside our village, actually.

18 Q. Well, all right. But all those roads -- and you have here in tab

19 2 a map of the Prnjavor municipality on which you can see that there are

20 far more Serb villages than Prnjavor itself. You have the ethnic

21 structure of Prnjavor there, and you can see that there were several times

22 more Serb inhabitants there and Serb villages than there were Muslim

23 villages and Muslim inhabitants and so on. Isn't that right, Mr. 1610?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. And then I'm sure you're -- you have in mind something that has

Page 26157

1 been handed to me under the form of tab 3, and it says the Socialist

2 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as the header, Ministry of the Interior,

3 Security Services Centre Banja Luka. That's what the document says. And

4 it is sent to the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the Assembly, to

5 the government, to the Ministry of the Interior, and also to the Banja

6 Luka Corps of the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army. The date is the 23rd

7 of September, 1991, and the document was signed by Stojan Zupljanin, chief

8 of the security centre in Banja Luka. And the information is being sent

9 reporting to the MUP corps, government Assembly, Presidency, and so on,

10 and it states: "We are sending you information about -- on the activities

11 of armed groups on the territory covered by the Banja Luka security

12 services centre. Please find enclosed a report on that."

13 And then it says that various forms of illegal activity are on the

14 rise, are escalating, ever more numerous armed groups wearing uniforms and

15 civilian clothing alike. And then it goes on to talk about ever

16 increasing gunfire in public places, the mistreatment and abuse of

17 citizens, the holdup and seizure of freight and passenger vehicles,

18 shooting on active and reserve police officers, and it speaks about the

19 general concern that this could escalate further, et cetera.

20 So now, Mr. 1610, were these checkpoints erected in order to

21 provide security, and does that follow on from this piece of information

22 and document and what it contains, or are you saying that it was the

23 Muslims who were controlled through these checkpoints?

24 A. If there was abuse and mistreatment by the Serbs, then that --

25 then it was -- that Serbs could mistreat and abuse Serbs, that wasn't

Page 26158

1 possible. They must have done it to the Croats and Muslims.

2 Q. Now, judging by this chief of centre, Stojan Zupljanin, I would

3 say that he was a Serb, especially as his first name is Stojan. Isn't

4 that right?

5 A. All I can say is what happened in our parts.

6 Q. I'm asking you whether he is a Serb. So is he complaining, as far

7 up as the Presidency --

8 JUDGE MAY: The witness may not know this gentleman. It would be

9 doubtful if he does. But I think this would be a suitable moment to

10 adjourn.

11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, can I address the Chamber briefly in

12 private session?

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry. Could I address the Chamber briefly in

15 private session?

16 JUDGE MAY: We will go into private session. Private session,

17 please.

18 [Private session]

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17 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, we're in open session.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. 1610, in paragraph 9 of your statement, you say that most of

24 the men at these checkpoints belonged to the Territorial Defence, that

25 there were some military policemen as well; is that right?

Page 26162

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You also say that you know that a captain, a captain from the

3 Banja Luka region, was in charge of the whole region and that he issued

4 the order to erect those checkpoints. Is that right? Is that what you

5 said?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, tell me, please, were you too a member of the Territorial

8 Defence at that time?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And many other Muslims were also members of the Territorial

11 Defence in those days, weren't they?

12 A. Yes. There were also five Serbs in my village.

13 Q. As far as I can see, you were a member of a TO unit which

14 consisted of 48 Muslims and five Serbs; is that right?

15 A. No. The total was 48.

16 Q. Of which five were Serbs; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Very well. The call to join the TO in 1991 was received from the

19 military department in Prnjavor; isn't that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And your call-up paper, as you state in paragraph 10, was signed

22 by a certain Meho Jasarevic; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was he a Muslim too?

25 A. Yes.

Page 26163

1 Q. And like all reservists in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, you

2 had a military uniform at home, didn't you?

3 A. I didn't have it at home, but we were given a uniform.

4 Q. And what was the uniform like, Mr. 1610?

5 A. Olive-grey green.

6 Q. The customary military uniform, wasn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Identical to those worn by JNA; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is it true that at the time, from the TO warehouse, you were

11 issued two machine-guns, some 50 M-48 rifles with 30 bullets each, and 150

12 bullets for the machine-guns?

13 A. We were issued two machine-guns, M-48 rifles, and six or seven

14 were not in working order.

15 Q. But all this was happening in 1991, wasn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Very well. Now, tell me, in those days carrying out those duties

18 in the TO, were you authorised to take into custody people who did not

19 have licenses and were carrying weapons to search vehicles and patrol the

20 village and its environs?

21 A. Yes. And there were two policemen with us who were also

22 reservists.

23 Q. And is it true that the TO unit, that is the one you were in as

24 well, had been formed by that same captain whose name is Nedjo, as you

25 state here, and who distributed the weapons to you?

Page 26164

1 A. This came from the military department. The instructions were to

2 maintain the law and order in our village so as to avoid any problems

3 arising.

4 Q. You yourself say there were 48 of you, of whom five were Serbs.

5 How then can you claim that those checkpoints were erected to check

6 Muslims when you yourself, as a Muslim and the other Muslims from your

7 village, were also armed? In a large majority of cases you patrolled the

8 village, searched people and vehicles as they went by.

9 A. Not the surroundings of the village. Our duties were limited to

10 the village and the side roads.

11 Q. But the roads around the village. Your village is not the main

12 road, is it?

13 A. Yes. Our village is -- lies close to the main road.

14 Q. So you were patrolling that area, searching and checking the

15 population and passengers; is that right?

16 A. Yes. You would notice a person driving something. We would check

17 out whether he had any weapons. If he did, we would confiscate it and so

18 on.

19 Q. So my question is: Why are you claiming that those checkpoints

20 were erected to check Muslims?

21 A. We had quite a lot of ammunition should there be any attacks, and

22 the rifles were in order. So of course it was against Muslims. Others,

23 for instance, in Potocani they had mortars, hand grenades.

24 Q. But there were 48 of you, of whom only five were Serbs, and yet

25 you say that the checkpoints were erected against the Muslims. So you --

Page 26165

1 there were 43 of you Muslims were organising checkpoints against Muslims,

2 and you're claiming they were made there against the Muslims.

3 A. Well, of course they were against the Muslims, because first of

4 all, the Muslims were in the minority there. And I am claiming that you

5 had to have a special permit. You had to pay for it to be able to go

6 outside of Prnjavor. So we couldn't move around anywhere.

7 Q. I'm not discussing the measures that apply to the population and

8 the circumstances described by the chief of the security centre in his

9 letter to the Presidency and other bodies. What I'm saying is that you in

10 your unit had a majority, a large majority of Muslim members. Is that

11 right or not?

12 A. Yes, it is right that this was almost a purely Muslim village, the

13 village of Lisnja.

14 Q. But you were armed, and you were part of the TO.

15 A. Yes, we did have weapons.

16 Q. You certainly remember that in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina

17 in those days, the Yugoslav People's Army was still the only legal armed

18 force, and Bosnia-Herzegovina was still part of the SFRY, wasn't it?

19 A. Yes. I remember that very well. And the pull-out from Croatia

20 and the five-cornered star that was replaced with the four S's.

21 Q. I'm not talking about the four letters. I'm just saying that the

22 JNA was the only legal armed formation in those areas at that time. Is

23 that right or not?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. In paragraph 3 -- 13, you say that the first problem started in

Page 26166

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Page 26167

1 March 1992 when you heard that at a distance of some 400 metres from your

2 village automatic fire was being opened. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Before that there were no problems at all?

5 A. Very minor ones. Nothing really dangerous.

6 Q. And then when you heard that, you were patrolling as a TO unit.

7 You were armed, and you had all the powers that we referred to to stop

8 people, to check them out, to maintain public law and order; is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Why didn't you intervene or at least try to find out who had

12 opened fire?

13 A. How dared we go there? We had weapons, but we couldn't do

14 anything with it. We would -- to get killed up there from Pavlovo Brdo

15 from the Pavlo hill.

16 Q. So you didn't intervene?

17 A. We didn't dare.

18 Q. And did you inform anyone?

19 A. Yes. We informed Captain Nedjo.

20 Q. Was he in your village?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So when he came to visit your village, you informed him?

23 A. Captain Nedjo would come on a daily basis to see us. He would

24 come in the morning, shall we say, to inquire what had happened. We would

25 report to him.

Page 26168

1 Q. Does that mean that you reported to him in writing?

2 A. This report was compiled by Nijaz. He was also a captain or

3 something like that. He was an officer, and he would compile the report.

4 Q. So this Nijaz drafted a written report; is that right?

5 A. We kept record of events in a notebook as a patrol. Now, whether

6 he was given this in writing, I couldn't tell you, but the two of them

7 regularly met.

8 Q. Do you have any of those written reports?

9 A. No. I don't have anything.

10 Q. Very well. As I can see from your statement, you and the other

11 Muslims from your village were armed with weapons of the Territorial

12 Defence; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know of a single case that the Muslims without any cause

15 opened fire? Did you report about that at all?

16 A. Well, first of all, even if people tried to do that, we would

17 prevent it from happening.

18 Q. All right. You claim in paragraph 12 in your statement that, "On

19 one occasion when a drunken Muslim was shooting in the air, we had to take

20 his weapon away," and you reported about that; is that right?

21 A. Yes, that's right. We took his weapon away and we handed it over

22 to Captain Nedjo.

23 Q. You say that at that time you saw truckloads of reservists passing

24 down the road through the village of Poraci, which belonged to Lisnja; is

25 that right?

Page 26169

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, you say that reservists who were transported in these trucks

3 opened fire at the houses in your village. Is that your statement?

4 A. Yes. The village of Poraci.

5 Q. So they were shooting at random there.

6 A. Yes, in passing. There is evidence of that which is quite

7 visible. On the houses there are still scars, so to speak, but of course

8 the windowpanes have been replaced.

9 Q. Tell me, you say that there was frequent random shooting, as you

10 had put it, but were any villagers killed or injured due to that?

11 A. Not at that time.

12 Q. So they were only shooting the way this man whose rifle you had

13 taken away was shooting; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Were their weapons taken away too, the weapons they

16 used to shoot around, as you had taken away the weapon of the person who

17 had been shooting in the air?

18 A. Who'd take their weapons away, the reservists weapons. We did

19 report that to Captain Nedjo too. However, the same thing was repeated

20 time and again, this very same thing.

21 Q. But nobody got killed or injured.

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. In the month of April, 1992, the captain asked you to

24 return to machine-guns that you were issued with in 1991 as members of the

25 TO; is that right?

Page 26170

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And as far as I can see in your statement, that's when you stopped

3 wearing a uniform, the uniform you had as a reservist; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But these rifles, they didn't ask you for them?

6 A. No. They didn't ask for the machine-gun ammunition either.

7 Q. So you kept the guns and the ammunition?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And now in paragraph 17, you say that in the beginning of May

10 1992, a written order came to the local commune, that is to say to your

11 village. A written order, you say. This order indicated that all persons

12 with hunting rifles had to surrender them; is that right?

13 A. Yes, that is right.

14 Q. Tell me, did this order arrive from the police or from the

15 military authorities?

16 A. It arrived from the police authorities.

17 Q. So it was a police order; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The army which was coming to the end of its tenure in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina had nothing to do with this order; is that right?

21 A. I think that's right.

22 Q. Now you say that soon after that, your village was surrounded by

23 the police and by members of the unit called the Wolves from Vucjak; is

24 that right? Is that what you're saying?

25 A. Yes.

Page 26171

1 Q. When did this happen?

2 A. I cannot give you the dates. I already mentioned in my first

3 statement that I cannot give any dates, but we were supposed to hand over

4 these hunting weapons, and two or three -- we had two or three days to do

5 that, and I had my brother-in-law's weapon and I handed it in.

6 Q. All right. So the police unit was there and the unit belonging to

7 the Wolves from Vucjak. So again there were no members of the JNA there;

8 is that right?

9 A. No, I didn't see any then.

10 Q. When did you first hear of this unit called the Wolves from

11 Vucjak?

12 A. Sometime in 1991. That's when I heard of them. But at that time

13 I wasn't really very much interested in that, and I did not move about

14 very much.

15 Q. Had you ever heard of this certain Veljko Milankovic, the

16 commander of that unit before that?

17 A. No, I did not know him personally. I did not hear of them.

18 Q. Did you didn't hear of him?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And who was in this unit the Wolves from Vucjak? Was that your

21 local population from there?

22 A. It wasn't our local population there. There wasn't anyone from

23 Lisnja or from the Muslim villages. I heard of this one man, Jansa, when

24 all this happened in Lisnja. He was a Slovenian.

25 Q. And what about the rest? Where were they from?

Page 26172

1 A. I heard that they were from Ilova and places like that.

2 Neighbours, from neighbouring villages.

3 Q. Oh, from neighbouring villages.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you say that then when they surrounded you, you were told that

6 you had to hand over all weapons; is that right?

7 A. At that time, it was hunting weapons that had to be handed in.

8 Q. So hunting guns had to be handed over by all weapons, whereas

9 these members of the TO, including yourself, all still had normal TO

10 weapons, didn't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So when this request was made to hand over these weapons, was --

13 did it also refer to your weapons, the ones that you had as the TO when

14 you were surrounded?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Now let me not use this word "operation," but when this took

17 place, when the village was surrounded, et cetera, was anybody killed?

18 A. No.

19 Q. All right. In paragraph 18, you say at that time about 100 sniper

20 rifles were surrendered as well as a very large number of hunting rifles.

21 Is that right? Is that the figure that you're referring to?

22 A. Yes. Because it was a big village and very rich. People were

23 abroad for the most part and, of course, there were quite a few hunters

24 there.

25 Q. So over 100 sniper rifles and a very large number of hunting

Page 26173

1 rifles in your village, and all of that because they were hunters?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. In paragraph 19, you claim that you, together with

4 about 25 men from your village, went to the Prnjavor police station to

5 turn in weapons and that you saw three trucks full of soldiers from Knin

6 there. That's what you said. They were called Knindzas; is that right?

7 A. First of all, it's not Prijedor, it's Prnjavor. And secondly, it

8 is true that I did go there and that I saw these men from Knin.

9 Q. All right. You went to Prnjavor, not Prijedor. And you saw three

10 trucks full of soldiers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were they moving about or were they sitting in these trucks?

13 A. They were by the police station. They were outside. Some were

14 also on the truck and some were standing by the truck.

15 Q. You say that they were swearing at you, asking why you were

16 surrendering weapons. Is that what they asked you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I find it incredible that they asked you that.

19 A. It's not that they asked this directly. They were just saying,

20 "Why did you hand over your weapons?" They said that it was a pity that

21 we handed them over, that they should kill us.

22 Q. Oh, so that's why they asked you. All right. As far as I

23 understand this, they were reprimanding you for having handed over your

24 weapons.

25 So you invented this, Mr. 1610.

Page 26174

1 A. This is not correct.

2 Q. All right. In the same paragraph, number 19, you say quite

3 literally: "They wore camouflage uniforms. I noticed that they had Red

4 Berets. On their sleeves they had some kind of patch. As far as I can

5 remember, the patch read something like SAO Krajina. I did not know what

6 this meant." Is that what you stated?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you noticed, as far as you could remember, as you put it

9 yourself, that there was something like "SAO Krajina" written on these

10 patches.

11 A. Yes, because we did not dare look at them directly. We were

12 afraid. Of course they were saying all sorts of things to us, and I

13 managed to catch a glimpse of these yellow letters that said "SAO

14 Krajina."

15 Q. Are you sure that that's what it said because you say here as if

16 it said -- so you did see some things and you didn't see other things.

17 What did you actually see?

18 A. I saw that "SAO Krajina" was written there.

19 Q. You saw that it was written there. And how come you know that

20 they were from Knin? Did somebody tell you that or is this your

21 assumption? Is that what you assumed then?

22 A. I didn't assume it. As we were entering the police station

23 bringing in our weapons, there were two young men there from Knin, and

24 they were also swearing at us, cursing our Muslim mothers when we were

25 entering this one room where weapons were supposed to be handed over. I

Page 26175

1 [redacted].

2 Q. I'm just asking you how come you knew that they were from Knin.

3 Did they say that?

4 A. When they were saying that -- I mean, these two men were sort of

5 wounded a bit, injured. So that is how they were registered there.

6 That's what I heard.

7 Q. Where did they register them?

8 A. At the police station in Prnjavor.

9 Q. And that's where you heard that they were from Knin?

10 A. Yes, as I was entering this place.

11 Q. All right. And you received certificates for each and every

12 weapon that you handed over; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Already in paragraph 21, you say that three or four days later,

15 you received information from the SDA representative that any hidden

16 weapons had to be handed over and that the military would come to collect

17 them.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you say "the military," what does that mean? You are talking

20 about the army of Republika Srpska; right?

21 A. For as long as we wore the five-pointed star, we always thought

22 that it was the army, but the army was there.

23 Q. However, these two groups of Muslims, there were about 30 of them,

24 they did not return any weapons; right?

25 A. No, it wasn't that they didn't return any weapons. They came and

Page 26176

1 they collected these weapons without any ammunition, without any clips,

2 nothing.

3 Q. All right. As far as I can see here, at one point in time they

4 disarmed the members of the army of Republika Srpska and they seized the

5 weapons that had already been surrendered, and they went to the hill

6 called Vinogradije from there; is that right?

7 A. Well, Captain Nedjo also wore a five-pointed star, and it was only

8 natural; we still thought it was the Yugoslav army. And it is true they

9 went towards Vinogradije.

10 Q. All right. So these two groups of Muslims, they disarmed their

11 weapons and they went with their weapons to Vinogradije; is that right?

12 A. It's not that they had any big weapons or something. They took

13 these weapons that the people had handed over. They took that and went to

14 Vinogradije.

15 Q. How many of them were there?

16 A. Say about 30 in two groups. I didn't really count them.

17 Q. They were all Muslims? Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And now you say that the attack on the village of Lisnja started

20 this same day around 1600 hours. However, previously, there was an

21 announcement by megaphone stating that all inhabitants had to leave the

22 village and gather at the sawmill, as you had put it; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. And it was said then that those who did not go to the sawmill

25 would be considered enemies and therefore would be attacked; is that

Page 26177

1 right? Is that what was said specifically?

2 A. Yes, that's what was said.

3 Q. Was this a warning? These two groups of Muslims that had

4 collected the weapons and went to the hill called Vinogradije, was this a

5 warning to the civilian population to seek shelter in case there was a

6 conflict?

7 A. I think so.

8 Q. All right. You say that in the area by the sawmill there were

9 also some JNA officers in olive-green/grey uniforms that you did not know,

10 and this Slovenian Jansa, as you had put it, who still works in the MUP in

11 Prnjavor nowadays. Is that what you stated?

12 A. When I made this statement, he worked there then. I don't know

13 about now, but at that time he did.

14 Q. All right. It doesn't matter that he's a Slovenian. He is a

15 citizen from that area, because you say that he worked as a policeman in

16 Prnjavor.

17 A. He did not work as a policeman before the war

18 Q. Was he in this unit called Wolves from Vucjak?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So he was not a member of the army of Republika Srpska; is that

21 right? Was that a paramilitary formation or what was this unit, the

22 Wolves from Vucjak?

23 A. It was sort of a paramilitary formation, but they worked in

24 concert, in agreement with the JNA.

25 Q. When did the attack on Lisnja take place, on which date?

Page 26178

1 A. I've already said that I do not know exact dates. Perhaps you can

2 ask me something else and I'll answer your questions, but I cannot give

3 you exact dates. I don't know.

4 Q. You talk about the Wolves from Vucjak and so on and so forth. Is

5 it correct that you did not see any JNA officers at all but only members

6 of that particular formation?

7 A. Yes, I did see an officer. I saw one.

8 Q. You wore the same type of uniform?

9 A. I didn't have a uniform at that time.

10 Q. Well, not then, but before that you did, you had the same type of

11 uniform. That's right, isn't it?

12 A. It was the same colour, yes.

13 Q. Very well. Let me just take a look at something you said in your

14 statement.

15 You say in paragraph 25 that there was a Slovene there by the name

16 of Jansa and he was Milankovic's deputy. I recently heard that he was

17 working in the MUP in Prnjavor. I heard Milankovic asking the JNA

18 officers if they would bring a multiple rocket launcher to the hill called

19 Pavlovo Brdo.

20 Q. Now, tell me, a moment ago you said you'd never heard of

21 Milankovic, and now you keep referring to him as being the commander of

22 the Wolves from Vucjak. So let me ask you this. When did you hear about

23 the unit and what did you know about it?

24 A. Immediately before the attack on Lisnja took place, a cousin of

25 mine said, "Milankovic is here." I didn't know him personally, of course,

Page 26179

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Page 26180

1 but I heard Jansa talking - I was 10 metres away - Jansa talking to the

2 officers and asking them to bring in a multiple rocket launcher.

3 Q. Now, let's look at this: You said that you made a previous

4 statement, and I'm quoting. You -- "He addressed the officer. I don't

5 know who he was." That's what you say quite clearly. "I do not know who

6 he was. I do not know his name either. But at any rate, he was an

7 officer." Is that the statement you made?

8 A. Yes, that's what I said.

9 Q. And then you were asked on this previous occasion the following

10 question, whether you thought that it was an officer belonging to the army

11 of Republika Srpska, and your answer was yes. Isn't that right, Mr. 1610?

12 A. I did give that answer, because at that time I considered that it

13 was all the Serbian army, as it was indeed.

14 Q. So on that occasion, you said that this person was an officer of

15 the army of Republika Srpska. Tell me now this: Are you changing about

16 these officers, changing them around depending on the purpose you're

17 giving your statement for? On the one hand, you speak about the JNA, the

18 Yugoslav People's Army. On this occasion, when directly asked whether it

19 was an officer of the army of Republika Srpska, you said yes. Before

20 that, you say you don't know who he was, you don't know his name, but he

21 was an officer. Then you were asked whether he was an officer of the army

22 of Republika Srpska, and your answer was yes.

23 A. Yes, that is what I said. I'm not saying I didn't.

24 Q. Yes, but then you spoke of him as being a JNA officer as well.

25 A. I did say that because when all this was happening to us in Lisnja

Page 26181

1 on that particular day, it was the Serb army, as far as I was concerned,

2 so that's what I said. But he was wearing a JNA uniform and he had the

3 five-pointed star.

4 Q. The same one that you had had up until then?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. All right. And in paragraph 27, you mention a man -- a name Tito

7 Potok. Tell me, who was that man; a Slovene, a Croat, a Serb? Who was

8 he, this Tito Potok?

9 A. Tito Potok was a Serb.

10 Q. And then you say that he asked you to start up the engines of a

11 vehicle and other things. What's that got to do with these events? I'm

12 not quite clear on what you're referring to, a hotwire.

13 A. When we reached the mill, sawmill, he asked us to ignite the

14 engine, and I didn't know how to do that using a hotwire. And then later

15 on I said I'd go and find somebody who would be able to start up the

16 engine that way. I wasn't able to find anyone, so I went to hide among

17 the women and children.

18 Q. All right. So you fled. You escaped and hid with the -- among

19 the women and children. But what has this got to do with starting up an

20 engine with these hot wires? What's that got to the do with the events

21 we're discussing? I'm not clear on that. Why do you bring that up at all

22 in the context of these events?

23 A. Well, they were going to take the car, seize it, because the car

24 belonged to a man called Adel Pekic [phoen].

25 Q. So you didn't say that in your statement. All you said was that

Page 26182

1 you were asked to start up the engine using a hot wire, and straight away

2 you fled and hid among the women and children.

3 A. Well, not straight away, several minutes later.

4 Q. All right. Several minutes later. And in the meantime the

5 Muslims who didn't want to hand over their weapons, did appear and

6 surrendered their weapons? Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell me now, did anybody beat them, mistreat them, abuse them in

9 any way once they did appear, once they appeared?

10 A. Well, when they were coming down from the Lisnja road, down the

11 Lisnja road, two men were abused. They were hit with rifle butts. And

12 then about 30 of them were taken off in trucks to Prnjavor.

13 Q. Well, why didn't you say that in your statement, that they were

14 mistreated and beaten, these people? Why didn't you say that? Because it

15 would appear from this statement that nobody beat or mistreated anybody.

16 A. Well, I said that they were beaten.

17 Q. Now, according to you, once they had surrendered their weapons,

18 this man Milankovic gave orders that the village be shelled. Is that what

19 you're claiming?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Well, does that mean then that there was an armed unit that still

22 remained in the village?

23 A. No. There was no unit remaining in the village. Only the people

24 working in the fields and didn't know what was happening remained, because

25 they were far away from their villages at that time. So they might have

Page 26183

1 stayed on, and the people who were sick and elderly.

2 Q. Then you go on to say that the wolves from Vucjak stormed the

3 village and set fire to 76 houses. Is that what you claim?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. Then you go on to say that this man who asked you to

6 start the engine of that car bragged and said that he had killed three men

7 whom you yourself buried later on in the village of Konjuhovci. So what

8 is the truth? What is correct here?

9 A. What is correct is that he told us in the morning that he had

10 indeed killed three men and that he said he would kill some more people

11 too.

12 Q. And did you bury anybody yourself?

13 A. I did dig graves, and then a young Serb guy told us to get lost,

14 that it would be better if we got lost.

15 Q. So you didn't actually bury anybody yourself.

16 A. I dug the grave and then I left.

17 Q. Did you see a single man who had actually been killed there?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. So who was that man? Go on, tell me what person you saw.

20 A. There was Bajis.

21 Q. So you saw this one man who had been killed.

22 A. I saw three corpses being brought in in the car.

23 Q. What were these people's names?

24 A. There was Avdija and Bajis Halilic [as interpreted], and this

25 young person of 17, young man of 17.

Page 26184

1 Q. Do you know how they were killed, how they lost their lives? Do

2 you know anything about that?

3 A. No, I don't know anything about that, but I do know that they were

4 killed, and I do know that there was a cross drawn on their bodies.

5 Q. Tell me, were they killed during the fighting that took place

6 there or were they executed by someone? Which is it?

7 A. Well, there wasn't any fighting going on there. Not a single

8 bullet was fired. There was no fighting, no combat.

9 Q. And where did these people actually come from?

10 A. They were from Porac.

11 Q. So this village that you're mentioning now, was there any fighting

12 there, any clash of any kind or not?

13 A. No, there wasn't a clash of any kind.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So there was no fighting, no conflict in your locality; is that

17 right?

18 A. As far as my village is concerned, nobody shot a single bullet.

19 Q. I'm not talking about your village of Lisnja, I'm talking about

20 the area itself, the whole area. Was there any fighting there? How did

21 these men come to be killed?

22 A. I don't know how they were killed. All I do know is that their

23 bodies were found and that they had to be buried in the morning.

24 Q. All right. So you don't know how they were in fact killed.

25 Right. Now, after this attack, you were allegedly shut up in a footwear

Page 26185

1 factory for 35 days, in a shoe factory. That's what you claim.

2 A. Forty-five days in actual fact.

3 Q. All right, 45 days. And where is that shoe factory?

4 A. In Prnjavor

5 Q. And who held you prisoner there?

6 A. There was the reserve police force.

7 Q. I see, the reserve police force from Prnjavor. Did they beat you,

8 did they mistreat you in any way while you were being held there?

9 A. Well, yes. The weekends were best, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

10 That's when they would attack us, beat us when they would come back from

11 their shifts, but they didn't beat me because I fled. There were 387 of

12 us in total.

13 Q. But you say nobody beat you personally?

14 A. Not me personally.

15 Q. Was anybody killed?

16 A. Alija Dzinic was there. He was all beaten up. His head was

17 beaten in.

18 Q. So of those 300 of you -- how many did you say?

19 A. Three hundred and eighty-seven I said.

20 Q. Right, 387. Was anybody killed?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, in paragraph 44, you state something that is very

23 interesting, and I'm quoting you. "During that night when we were all

24 rallied up to go to the sawmill, I heard that the soldiers had taken away

25 three women to Suad Zukancic's house and that they raped her. Is that

Page 26186

1 what you said, that you heard about that?

2 A. I said -- actually, the story that was going around was that they

3 were raped. What it says in the statement is that that was not true, that

4 she did this of her own will.

5 Q. But I will read the following sentence. "I believe that -- my

6 opinion is that the women were not raped. They were having sex with the

7 soldiers for money, and it's only when people figured out what they were

8 doing that they stated that they had been raped." Is that right?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Well, do you know of any similar cases, others? That is to say,

11 that they had sex for money and then later on said they had been raped.

12 A. Yes, that's what I heard.

13 Q. All right. Fine. Now, in paragraph 45, you go on to say that you

14 did not know Veljko Milankovic before the war but that others told you who

15 the man was.

16 A. Yes. On the day the attack on Lisnja took place.

17 Q. All right. Now, this next bit does not relate to the fact that

18 you had any knowledge of him having the reputation of a criminal and

19 having been prosecuted and things like that. Did you know anything about

20 that or not?

21 A. No, I didn't know anything about that, but I did hear about it

22 later on, that he was found guilty for some offences. Perhaps -- I heard

23 about that perhaps a year later.

24 Q. Yes, but you heard about it before you made this statement; is

25 that correct?

Page 26187

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. Well, why, then, didn't you mention that reputation of his?

3 A. Well, I didn't know that it was necessary for me to do so, whether

4 I should speak about that or not.

5 Q. Well, you claim that you didn't know who he was, and yet before

6 you made your statement you learnt that he was in fact a criminal, but you

7 didn't consider it necessary to say that in your statement; is that it?

8 A. Yes, that's it.

9 Q. But in paragraph 47, you also claim and state that you knew that

10 this same man, Milankovic, after the public security station in Prnjavor

11 had been taken over, was arrested and taken to Banja Luka; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. So who arrested him?

14 A. The specials from Sarajevo, special forces from Sarajevo arrested

15 him.

16 Q. So the police actually arrested him, the regular police; is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. And the others that took part in this, what happened to them? Did

20 the authorities react to the unlawful conduct of any of these men from the

21 paramilitary formation except for him, for the boss himself? If they

22 arrested their boss and chief, I assume that they should have arrested the

23 others too. What happened to the others? What do you know about that?

24 A. Well, nothing was heard later on until he was released, and I

25 didn't know about this paramilitary unit.

Page 26188

1 Q. And where were you yourself after that? Where did you go to

2 afterwards?

3 A. I was in the village of Lisnja. This was before the events that

4 happened came to pass.

5 Q. All right. And when you were released, how long were you there

6 you said? Forty --

7 A. Forty-five days.

8 Q. All right. So you were there incarcerated for 45 days. Where

9 were you later, afterwards?

10 A. We were released later on to Lisnja and I had a work obligation to

11 perform.

12 Q. So all of you were released after that and went on with your lives

13 normally in your village; is that right?

14 A. Yes, later on, but not all of us. Some of us stayed behind.

15 Others were transferred to Tunjica in Banja Luka. Because my uncle was

16 there and he died a year later. And we had a work obligation to perform

17 later on. That we were free, we were not free; they would come in in the

18 evenings to mistreat us, abuse us.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, sometimes I slept at home.

21 Sometimes I slept in my shed. It was difficult to know where to sleep or

22 when they would turn up.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Well, did they take anyone away from your village or kill anybody?

25 A. Well, somebody from the neighbouring village came by, a man named

Page 26189

1 Serbes, asking for money, cars. He would seize cars. And another

2 formation would turn up and they confiscated our tractors and agricultural

3 machinery.

4 Q. So this man came and asked you for money, did he, and he stole

5 vehicles? He was a criminal, then, wasn't he?

6 A. Well, he was in the army. Now, who he actually was, I can't say,

7 whether he was a criminal or not, but he was there.

8 Q. Did you know him?

9 A. I didn't know him myself personally, but it's in the neighbouring

10 village. So a neighbour of mine told me that that's that man. And I have

11 some land there myself, but I didn't see him myself.

12 Q. What was his name?

13 A. Serbes was what they called him.

14 Q. Serbes. What kind of a name is that?

15 A. Now, whether that was his nickname or not I don't know, but that's

16 what they called him.

17 Q. So apart from this criminal who came, did anybody else come to

18 mistreat the inhabitants of the village?

19 A. Well, yes, they did. For example, there was all sorts of units

20 and formations coming by, and we'd always have to try and escape and flee.

21 We had no electricity, nothing else, and as soon as it grew dark, you

22 would try and seek shelter somewhere and hide.

23 Q. All right. But throughout that time were any of the inhabitants

24 of the village killed?

25 A. Not at that time, but later on, yes, they were.

Page 26190

1 Q. When did -- was somebody killed later on?

2 A. Well, I left, but I think it was in 1993. That's what I heard. A

3 man --

4 Q. All right, but you have no personal knowledge of that after that

5 period of time. You weren't there; is that right?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. All right. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think there's

10 only one question that needs some more clarification, and it has to do

11 with the point in time when members of the Territorial Defence in those

12 days, as the witness has explained, were given weapons.

13 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you said that what happened was that

15 members of the Territorial Defence in your area, that is, 48 men of which

16 only five were Serbs received weapons; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when you were interviewed in October 2001, you said literally

19 -- I don't know whether you have the statement in front of you, but do

20 you remember saying at the time, and I quote: "Since I was a member of

21 the Territorial Defence, I had a uniform at home." This was a clear

22 statement by you; is that right?

23 A. When we were issued weapons, we also were issued uniforms, I mean

24 coats.

25 Q. That's why I'm asking you. You were quite emphatic here. You

Page 26191

1 said that you had a uniform at home. And then you added that the TO

2 received two machine-guns on that day, that a TO truck came, distributed

3 weapons and machine-guns. Everyone who was issued a M-48 received 30

4 bullets. Nowhere did you mention what you said today, that you didn't

5 have a uniform.

6 Wasn't it the rule for all people who were in reserve to have

7 uniforms at home? Should the need arise, they would have it at hand, as

8 you actually stated in October 2001.

9 A. I didn't have that uniform because I was in Derventa. I belonged

10 to a company of recoilless cannon, and I returned my uniform. I was in

11 Germany. Then later on when these people who needed to be selected, who

12 were serious, who didn't drink and so on, they were chosen to be given

13 uniforms and weapons.

14 Q. But that is your explanation now. Earlier on, your statement was

15 quite clear. Does that mean that people with officer ranks were given

16 uniforms on that day with officer's insignia or did they have those

17 uniforms at home already?

18 A. I can't tell you about the others. I don't know.

19 Q. Just one more point. You also said earlier on quite clearly that

20 you kept the M-48 rifles and that you were never asked to surrender the TO

21 rifles, M-48s.

22 A. Yes, until that day when Lisnja was attacked.

23 Q. But you said that you never returned those rifles.

24 A. No, I didn't say that we never returned them. But when Veljko

25 Milankovic was cursing God and saying why hadn't the weapons been

Page 26192

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Page 26193

1 collected when he saw the weapons.

2 Q. This is my last question. I am again drawing your attention to

3 what you said quite clearly in your statement on page 4, third paragraph.

4 "They never asked us to hand in M-48 rifles of the Territorial Defence."

5 Is that right or not?

6 A. What I meant was that they didn't ask us to hand in the weapons

7 until that event.

8 Q. But you said that you handed in 100 snipers but that these rifles

9 were never handed in.

10 A. I don't remember saying that, that the rifles were never returned.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

13 Q. Sir, I'd like to draw your attention to the portion of your

14 testimony with respect to you testifying that you heard Milankovic ask a

15 JNA officer to move some weaponry, artillery, I believe, up to a hill

16 called Pavlovo Brdo. Now, Mr. Milosevic has suggested that or has

17 actually put to you that you have changed the identity of that officer to

18 suit the different purpose or different purposes. I'm going to ask that

19 you look at page 5 of your statement, and I have put a yellow note to the

20 precise portion that I would like you to review.

21 After you find the sentence in your statement which goes to this

22 very matter, could I ask you to read it for the Chamber.

23 A. "I heard that radio MUP --" no. "I heard that he was working in

24 the MUP." Correction.

25 Q. I believe it's the next sentence.

Page 26194

1 A. "I heard Milankovic asking a JNA officer if they would bring a

2 multiple-rocket launcher to the Pavlovo Brdo. They agreed and they

3 installed on that hill a recoilless gun. From where I stood, I could see

4 a multiple-rocket launcher and the recoilless gun on the hill."

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. GROOME: No further questions.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This question, the question that I

10 put to the witness, didn't have to do with the actions but, rather, the

11 identity of the individual. In the statement, the witness speaks of a JNA

12 officer, whereas earlier on he said, and I quoted: "He addressed an

13 officer. I don't know who he was. I don't know his name, but he was an

14 officer." And then in answer to a direct question from whoever was asking

15 the questions, in answer to a question whether he believes that he was an

16 officer of Republika Srpska, he answered yes. You can find this in

17 earlier statements. That was the point of my question.

18 JUDGE MAY: [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 26195

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 JUDGE MAY: I think we better go into private session as the

11 registrar points out.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

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24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 26196

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

11 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1610, that concludes your evidence for now,

12 but could you please be available tomorrow, we must ask you because of

13 this mistake which is nothing, of course, to do with you, but it is

14 necessary that you stay, if you would, overnight, and if necessary, we

15 will ask you to come back tomorrow morning. We will be able to fit you in

16 sometime tomorrow morning if there are any additional questions.

17 Mr. Milosevic, will you indicate tomorrow morning whether there

18 are any additional questions for the witness. Perhaps you would have a

19 look at that overnight.

20 Yes. We will put down the blinds.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I will be taking the next witness. Before

24 he comes in, there's something I'd like to raise in private session, if I

25 may.

Page 26197

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

2 [Private session]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

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22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 26198

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]

6 MS. PACK: Your Honour, again while we're waiting for the witness

7 to come in, could I ask for an exhibit number to be assigned to the

8 transcript of prior testimony and related exhibits in the binder in front

9 of you at tabs 1 to 5.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 533.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

16 WITNESS: MUSTAFA RAMIC

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE MAY: And perhaps the remaining blinds could be put up.

19 Yes, Ms. Pack.

20 Examined by Ms. Pack:

21 Q. Witness, will you give the Court, please, your name.

22 A. My name is Mustafa Ramic.

23 Q. Mr. Ramic, did you testify in previous proceedings before this

24 Tribunal in September of 1999?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 26199

1 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I'll read a summary of that earlier

2 testimony.

3 This witness became mayor of Brcko in the 1990 elections. He was

4 heavily involved in the formation of the SDA in Brcko. The witness and

5 his brother attended the first official meeting of the SDA in Sarajevo in

6 1990 and became party members.

7 The witness explains in his earlier testimony that the SDA came in

8 second in the 1990 elections with 23 seats. The SDP, or Communist Party,

9 won the majority of seats in the municipal parliament. They were a mixed

10 group, that is, there were Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats amongst them.

11 After the election, there was a coalition set up by the SDA, HDZ and SDS.

12 The Executive Council comprised three SDA, three HDZ, and three SDS

13 members. The witness describes the various posts in the municipal

14 government occupied on a parity basis by Serbs, Muslims, and Croats. The

15 highest ranking position was occupied by the witness; he was president.

16 Lasting for several months before the war broke out, the army was

17 distributing weapons among the Serb population in villages in Brcko

18 municipality. For about a month or two before the war, there were 300 or

19 even 400 men in the town of Brcko who were not from the area.

20 The witness telephoned the JNA commander repeatedly about what was

21 happening. He also went to see him to ask why tanks were digging in and

22 groups with machine-guns deployed around the town. It was particularly

23 odd that most of these weapons were aimed at the town. The JNA commander

24 would not discuss it. He would say from time to time that these

25 activities were being conducted also as a defence against incursion of

Page 26200

1 some foreign forces from Croatia. The witness proposed a joint unit made

2 up of Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, but this was refused.

3 The SDS wanted to partition the town. This was debated at a

4 televised parliamentary session on the 17th of April, 1992. The SDA's

5 position was that this was unacceptable. All the parties took part in the

6 debate, and the conclusion was to allow the SDS to take out a part of the

7 town and a part of the municipality and call it the Serb municipality of

8 Brcko. Before this, in early April, the SDS had already proclaimed the

9 Serb municipality of Brcko.

10 By the 1st of May, 1992, when the bridges in Brcko were destroyed,

11 there was not a single bridge across which you could go to Croatia. Two

12 bridges were blown up in Brcko, the railway bridge and the bridge for

13 vehicles and pedestrians. The railway bridge was also blown up within

14 three minutes of the pedestrian/vehicle bridge. The blowing up of the

15 bridges caused panic in the town.

16 The witness had ordered that the pedestrian/vehicle bridge be

17 protected. A group of policemen had been set up as a checkpoint there.

18 They told the witness later that the people who had blown up the bridge

19 were very well prepared, that they numbered 20, and that they were from

20 Serbia. They had taken over the checkpoint. They waited until morning to

21 activate the explosives. About 150 people were on the bridge at the time.

22 They were all Bosniaks.

23 After the bridges were blown up, the witness goes on to say in his

24 earlier testimony that he went to a meeting with the commander of the

25 garrison in Brcko at the barracks. The commander said that he would bring

Page 26201

1 the army in to take control of all the more important points in town. He

2 said that he would agree not to bring the army in if the witness went on

3 television and succeeded in calming the people down. The witness agreed

4 to go on television.

5 During the broadcast, people telephoned in and said that the army

6 was already entering town. At one point, people phoned up from the local

7 community of the 4th of July and said: "The army is at present shooting

8 at us." The witness asked the deputy commander of the garrison, who was

9 with him, what this meant, given that the army had agreed not to enter

10 town. The programme was interrupted and the witness left the television

11 studio. He thought that if he had stayed, they would probably have killed

12 him.

13 The witness went ultimately to Gornji Rahic, which was in free

14 Brcko. He spent most of his time there during the war. When the shooting

15 started and the attack was launched by the JNA and paramilitary units, he

16 organised the defence of the rest of the town. They succeeded in

17 controlling part of the town and the southern reaches.

18 The witness identifies by name prominent Bosniaks from Brcko or

19 prominent members of the SDA who were killed on the first day of the

20 conflict. He gives evidence about SDA membership and party structures in

21 Brcko and supporters and members of the SDA who were killed. He

22 identifies, by reference to charts, the sections of town, Muslim majority

23 areas, which were occupied on the 1st of May, 1992.

24 JUDGE MAY: I think that's a convenient moment. We will adjourn

25 now.

Page 26202

1 Mr. Ramic, we're just going to adjourn for 20 minutes. Could you

2 remember during this adjournment and any others there may be not to speak

3 to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the

4 members of the Prosecution team.

5 Yes. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I have a couple of supplemental questions

10 for the witness.

11 JUDGE MAY: Have you finished with the -- your summary?

12 MS. PACK: I have.

13 JUDGE MAY: You have. You don't want to deal with the rest of it.

14 Very well. Yes.

15 MS. PACK:

16 Q. Mr. Ramic, the JNA garrison commander to whom I referred in the

17 summary, what was his name?

18 A. His name was Pavle Milinkovic.

19 Q. Do you know his rank?

20 A. He was a lieutenant colonel of the Yugoslav army.

21 Q. Mr. Ramic, I read out in the summary a summary of your broadcast

22 at the television station in Brcko. You were accompanied by whom during

23 that broadcast?

24 A. It was Captain Momcilo Petrovic, assistant commander for security

25 matters.

Page 26203

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramic.

2 MS. PACK: Your Honour, that's the only supplemental matters I

3 wanted to deal with.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ramic, when the conflict broke out in the

7 municipality of Brcko, you were mayor at the time; right?

8 A. I was president of the municipality of Brcko.

9 Q. I see. President of the municipality of Brcko. So at the time

10 when the conflict broke out, you were the most important political figure

11 in the municipality of Brcko?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. A short while ago, when the summary was being presented, it was

14 explained that the majority vote in Brcko was won by the League of

15 Communists; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then you, the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ joined up to form a

18 coalition in order to topple them; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And after that, you had a conflict amongst you?

21 A. No, that's not the way it was.

22 Q. As you say on page 2 of your statement, in May 1990, at a meeting

23 of the Party of Democratic Action in Sarajevo when the statute was

24 adopted, together with your brother Ibrahim, you became an official of the

25 SDA. Is that right?

Page 26204

1 A. Actually, after this meeting, we were in the group of initiators

2 that established the SDA in Brcko.

3 Q. So you are one of the founders of the SDA in Brcko?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At the same time you were a member of the Main Board of the party?

6 A. Yes, I was. I mean, I became one later.

7 Q. The Main Board for all of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 A. Yes, but that's what I became later.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. Later, at the congress, which was in the month of September, as

11 far as I can remember, of 1990.

12 Q. The same year?

13 A. The same year, yes.

14 Q. That's the first time when the Main Board was elected; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So you were actually a member of this first Main Board of the

17 Party of Democratic Action that was elected?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. All right, Mr. Ramic. Bearing in mind all these positions you

20 held, I assume that everything that happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

21 notably in Brcko, is something that you are quite familiar with.

22 A. Well, I think so, yes.

23 Q. And your brother Ibrahim Ramic, at the beginning of the conflict

24 when you were president of the municipality, he was president of your

25 party in Brcko; is that right?

Page 26205

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Page 26206

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that's when the HDZ was constituted in Brcko and its president

3 was Mijo Anic.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it correct that the head of public security in Brcko, I mean

8 the police at the time of the outbreak of the conflict, was Stjepan

9 Filipovic?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. What was his ethnicity?

12 A. Croat.

13 Q. And the commander of the police was Zlatko Jacarevic, a Muslim; is

14 that right?

15 A. Well, he was one of the persons who were in top positions at the

16 SUP at the time.

17 Q. Yes. All right. So his deputy was Ivan Krndelj; right?

18 A. I don't think he had a deputy, but Ivan Krndelj was, I think, one

19 of the ten or so - how should I put this? - top people of the SUP, yes.

20 Q. And Suvalija Tanic, also a Muslim, he was head of the crime

21 investigation service in Brcko; is that right?

22 A. Yes. He was the chief of all the inspectors, yes.

23 Q. In your statement, you say that two or three months before the

24 outbreak of the conflict in Brcko, members -- the Serb members of the

25 Territorial Defence erected barricades and checkpoints around town and on

Page 26207

1 the main roads that led into town and out of town; is that right?

2 A. Well, I wouldn't put it that way. That was done by the army. It

3 was the army that set up the checkpoints, the barricades, on all

4 approaches to town and around town. That's what the army did.

5 Q. This is what you say. I'm quoting your statement now. This is

6 the last paragraph on page 5. "In addition to that, perhaps two or three

7 months before the bridges were blown up, the Serb members of the

8 Territorial Defence would erect roadblocks or checkpoints around the town

9 and on the main roads leading out of town and in the Serb areas of town."

10 So I've just quoted your own statement. I just wanted you to

11 confirm that for me.

12 A. Actually, I have to give a clarification. There wasn't a visible

13 separate organisation called the Serb Territorial Defence. There was the

14 Yugoslav army, and within it was this -- let's call it the Serb

15 Territorial Defence if that's what you wish to call them, but there were

16 also some other paramilitary formations. However, at any rate, everything

17 was under the command and organisational responsibility and control of the

18 Yugoslav army.

19 Q. At that time, as I know too, throughout Yugoslavia there was no

20 such thing as a Serb Territorial Defence, but you say Serb Territorial

21 Defence, that they erected roadblocks. Why did you put it that way then

22 in your statement? Why is that what you said?

23 A. Well, let me tell you, perhaps I did put it that way, but the

24 meaning of it is what I explained just now.

25 Q. If that's the meaning --

Page 26208

1 MS. PACK: Your Honour, perhaps the witness might be given a copy

2 of the statement if there's going to be continued questioning on that

3 paragraph.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. Refer the witness to that paragraph,

5 Mr. Milosevic.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Here it is, Mr. Ramic. It's the last paragraph on page 5 where it

8 says: "In addition to this, maybe two or three months before the bridges

9 were blown up, the Serb members of the TO would erect roadblocks or

10 checkpoints around the town and on the main roads leading out of the town

11 and in the Serb areas of town."

12 A. Well, now that I read this, I see that I meant something

13 completely different. When I say members of the Territorial Defence,

14 until that point in time there was a single Territorial Defence of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So Serb members from this Territorial Defence did

16 that together with the military, with the army. I didn't want to say the

17 Serb Territorial Defence.

18 Q. All right. You also say that the JNA, just before the war, armed

19 the Serb population in the surrounding villages. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But as you say yourself on page 6, because you are testifying on

22 the basis of your written statement, in paragraph 5 you suggested that a

23 multi-ethnic unit should be formed by way of a compromise in order to

24 patrol the town and the municipality of Brcko.

25 A. Yes. I can give an explanation in this respect with the

Page 26209

1 indulgence of the Honourable Court. This is what it is all about: Since

2 it was quite obvious that the Yugoslav army together with the mentioned

3 different paramilitary organisations that were ethnic Serbs only had

4 control over all the entrances into town and all other communication

5 routes that could have affected possible war developments. When I asked

6 Colonel Milinkovic -- Lieutenant Colonel Milinkovic to explain what he

7 wanted to achieve through this and what he was doing, then he explained,

8 but I mean several times he did not want to give any explanations, but

9 once he said that they did this because there was a possible danger of an

10 attack. And I asked what kind of attack, and he said an attack from

11 Croatia by the Ustashas. I'm paraphrasing now.

12 Since of course this was not correct, and since in a way he just

13 wanted to disguise his own activities, I suggested to him let's do the

14 following thing, let us defend the town with a multi-ethnic unit

15 consisting of Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. Let us establish this kind of

16 unit.

17 Q. Tell me, Mr. Ramic, wasn't the JNA such an armed force that

18 consisted of all ethnic groups, at least at that time?

19 A. Formally it was before, and I used to be a member of that kind of

20 JNA. But on the very eve of the war, it had turned into a purely ethnic

21 Serb military organisation. That's the way we can put it.

22 Q. Tell me, please, as a consequence of all of that, you say that

23 members of the Bosniak and Croat people started leaving town. I would

24 like to draw your attention to page 7, paragraph 3. You say: "Members of

25 the Bosniak and Croat communities started leaving town because they were

Page 26210

1 so worried that war would come. I should add that large numbers of Serbs

2 had left certain areas of town in mid-April. This was seen as further

3 evidence that the Serbs were preparing for war."

4 Now, please, Mr. Ramic, I quoted the entire third paragraph to

5 you. You say that the inhabitants there, the Bosniaks and the Croats,

6 were leaving town. And that this is because they were so worried that a

7 war would break out. And you say that the Serb inhabitants were doing the

8 same thing, but you understand that as further evidence that the Serbs

9 were preparing for war.

10 Now, please explain this to me. When the Bosniaks and Croats are

11 leaving, that doesn't mean that they are preparing for war. And when

12 Serbs are leaving, that is further evidence that they are preparing for

13 war.

14 How is it that you interpret the same thing in different ways in

15 the case of different ethnic groups?

16 A. What you quoted just now is perhaps not a very fortunate wording.

17 Actually, it was this way: For a while, it was noticed that Serbs, ethnic

18 Serbs, were leaving town. It would happen that overnight or, rather, the

19 next day we would realise that certain people were no longer there, that

20 they had left. This went on for a while, perhaps for about a month. And

21 it was noticeable. It's not on my part or on part of the other officials

22 in the municipality at the time, but all citizens noticed this and people

23 started talking about this, why was it that members of the Serb ethnic

24 group, the citizens of Brcko, were leaving town. Bearing in mind what was

25 going on in time in the broader region and even closer to Brcko, meaning

Page 26211

1 Bijeljina, Zvornik, Bosanski Samac, and many other things, bearing in mind

2 again that, before that, the area of Croatia was already engulfed by war,

3 so citizens who were ethnic Serbs obviously had an inkling that something

4 bad would happen. People talked about it in town. It wasn't a political

5 instruction or a pamphlet or I don't know what. Quite simply, the people

6 came to that conclusion on their own. So it was at their own initiative

7 that Bosniaks and Croats slowly started withdrawing their own family

8 members from town. That is what was going on.

9 Q. All right. Well, that's the point precisely. You say that both

10 Muslims and Croats and Serbs leave town. However, when the Muslims and

11 Croats leave, you say that this is because they were worried. And when

12 the Serbs leave, you say that they were preparing for war. Does that seem

13 logical to you, Mr. Ramic?

14 A. I think it is very logical. Please, Mr. Milosevic, there is the

15 following explanation: From some parts of town, citizens of Serb

16 ethnicity started leaving slowly for reasons unknown to us, and this had

17 been going on for a while. At the same time, there was a war, and also

18 there were war crimes that were being committed, and this news had reached

19 Brcko, and everybody knew who was doing all of this. The reaction of the

20 citizens belonging to other ethnic groups was that the same scenario was

21 being prepared for Brcko too, so let us take care of our family members,

22 and let us get out of here and move to a safer area. That was the gist of

23 it.

24 Q. If that's the gist of it, then let's go on. Finally war started

25 in the area of Brcko when, as you had put it, the bridges were blown.

Page 26212

1 That's what you say here.

2 A. Yes. Yes. That was the beginning of the war.

3 Q. Very well. Very well. Tell me first of all, you certainly know

4 where the Mujkici local commune is in Brcko.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is it correct that in the territory of this local commune at

7 the gas station on the Brcko-Loncari road, before the conflict broke out,

8 there was a privately-owned company there, Mibo, and the Brcko brick

9 laying factory.

10 A. Yes. Yes. Mibo was not a privately-owned company though. It was

11 a state-owned company, if we can put it that way, until then, and also the

12 brick factory.

13 Q. There was DDPSC there; right?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. So was that company. And is it correct that in 1991, very close

16 to the station where the -- where vehicles were overhauled, there was a

17 shooting range that was built there?

18 A. I don't know about that. Oh, just a minute. Perhaps you mean the

19 shooting range of the association of marksmanship in Brcko. So this is a

20 sports organisation that existed in Brcko. This was a shooting range, but

21 real ammunition was not used there but the type that is used for sports

22 events.

23 Q. All right. And is it correct that for months before the conflict

24 broke out in Brcko it was precisely Muslims from this local commune of

25 Mujkici, like from other parts of Brcko too, came to this shooting range

Page 26213

1 in order to train in terms of shooting from automatic weapons and other

2 weapons?

3 A. Oh, please. This has nothing to do with the truth. How could

4 people have automatic weapons? Everybody would have noticed something

5 like that in town, the police first and foremost. So in that case, the

6 police would certainly react. I as mayor would have been informed about

7 this certainly. I don't think this is correct at all.

8 Q. All right. So you say you don't think that's correct. Now, do

9 you know who Veljko Mensur from Brcko is?

10 A. Yes, I do know him. He's a well-known sportsman. He was a boxer

11 and karate player.

12 Q. And was he one of the instructors, the training instructors there?

13 A. No, that's not right.

14 Q. All right. Now I'm going to ask you to take a look at an Official

15 Note by the public security station in Brcko, and it relates to knowledge

16 about the activities of the SDA and HDZ in the local commune of Mujkici.

17 And I'm just going to read out a short passage from that Official Note.

18 It says: The DDPSC, which as you said a moment ago was set up in the

19 Mujkici local commune behind the Brcko Loncari petrol pump and links Sefir

20 Momimbo [phoen] and the Brcko bricklaying factory and is about 200 metres

21 from the River Sava, within the frameworks of that company there is a new

22 facility for vehicle repair with a large warehouse, and it is dug into the

23 ground. We learnt from the employees that this warehouse or storage space

24 was used by the Green Berets as a dormitory and a kitchen because we found

25 large quantities of blankets and mattresses and beds as well as a

Page 26214

1 fully-equipped kitchen. In addition to the warehouse, next to it there is

2 a shooting range for which we have received information that particularly

3 in recent months before the war conflicts broke out, was used for the

4 training and shooting using infantry weapons. It was noted that large

5 groups of Muslims from town and the Mujkici local commune would go there

6 after 3.00 p.m. for shooting practice. And when asked what they were

7 doing there by anybody, they would say that they were allegedly hunters

8 doing some target practice.

9 JUDGE MAY: What is the date -- what is the date of the document

10 that you're reading from?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The date of this document here is

12 the 7th of November, 1995. It is an Official Note by the security station

13 in Brcko. And it has a stamp as well up at the top. The Municipal

14 Secretariat, it says. I assume for the interior.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Brcko municipality. You can have

17 it, have the witness take a look at it. And I referred to the second

18 passage that is marked in marker ink here. So you can take a look at

19 that, and I'd like to have this exhibited.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness see it first.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I see a

22 document of this kind and hear about it. That's the first thing I want to

23 say.

24 Secondly, this document bears the stamp of the 7th of November,

25 1995, which means when the war was already over, so this is a retroactive,

Page 26215

1 fabricated, quite obviously, document. Proof of this cannot be so, is the

2 simple explanation. That that part of town, the part of town you're

3 referring to, was of a multi-ethnic composition; there were Croats and

4 Bosniaks and Serbs living there. Had anything like that actually taken

5 place, quite certainly the organised parts of the authority, the police

6 force or other inspector services or similar services and ultimately the

7 army must have known about it, because the army did have its own patrols

8 that patrolled the area, and they would have had to have come across

9 something like that. So this is something that I see here for the first

10 time.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. But it is an Official Note and it testifies about the activities

13 prior to the beginning of the conflict.

14 A. But, Mr. Milosevic --

15 Q. It was drawn up later on --

16 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic, after the war you can

18 write whatever kind of official notes you want as to what happened and how

19 it happened. I'm now going back to the time just prior to the war, the

20 breaking out of the war, that is to say before the 1st of May, 1992. And

21 I deny that there is any truth in what this document says. Had any of

22 that been true, then not only I myself as the mayor of the town would have

23 known about it but army would have known about it too and so would the

24 police. And neither of these two institutions told me about anything of

25 that kind prior to the war.

Page 26216

1 JUDGE MAY: We'll give it a number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: D179.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I have here, Mr. Ramic, another Official Note, another document

5 which was written somewhat earlier on, in October. That's when it was

6 compiled. And it says: "In Mujkici before the war broke out on the 1st

7 of May, 1992, a new war hospital was erected equipped with equipment and

8 medicines from the city hospital. Ibrahim Ramic headed these activities,

9 the president of the SDA party." That is to say, your brother. That's

10 right, isn't it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then Trumic Zijad, director of the county hospital; and Dr.

13 Smail, an internist; the president of the SO of Brcko, Dr. Pitic Fadil,

14 who was a surgeon; and others. And before that, in the local commune of

15 Stari Rasadnik, a rally of citizens was convened with only one item on the

16 agenda: How Muslims were to be -- were armed in the community. Some of

17 the elderly people who were Muslims asked, Who are we going to fight

18 against when we have the JNA as an army? And the presiding person stated

19 on the occasion that the Muslims had to be organised and armed in their

20 struggle against the Serbs. The rally was attended by Ilic Ziko, who

21 wasn't invited, and after a short period of time, he left -- had to leave

22 the meeting. And he in fact compiled this piece of information.

23 Is that correct or not, sir?

24 A. No, none of that is true and correct. And what's your question,

25 Mr. Milosevic?

Page 26217

1 Q. As this is an Official Note by the police in Brcko, my question to

2 you is as follows: Is this and in connection with the Rasadnik meeting

3 and in connection with the hospital, and you yourself took part in the

4 organisation of it before the conflict, that is to say in preparation for

5 the conflict; is that correct or not?

6 A. Well, let's put it this way: As far as a meeting in the local

7 commune of Stari Rasadnik is concerned, I can give you the following

8 explanation: Before the war broke out on the 1st of May, certain things

9 were happening and, amongst others, the SDS came to the fore, and this

10 happened in the last ten days just before the war broke out. So ten days

11 -- the last ten days of the month of April 1992. And they asked us to be

12 allowed to form a Serb commune of Brcko. And let me say that that was a

13 move which meant the town's division, and that in turn meant that some

14 sort of boundaries were being erected which would further lead to rifts

15 and tension and which would bring about a situation which could lead to a

16 war conflict ultimately. And of course no normal person would be willing

17 to accept anything of that kind. That's my first point.

18 Now, Your Honours, might I explain the second point in order to

19 answer the question just asked. My second point is this: We raised the

20 question or, rather, it was a meeting with SDS representatives but also

21 present were representatives of the municipal structures, not only us

22 Bosniaks but others too, and they presented that request of theirs. I

23 personally asked them how they envisaged dividing up the town, a town in

24 which 90 per cent of the surface area contained a mixed population, an

25 ethnically mixed population, and they said no, we have our vision about

Page 26218

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Page 26219

1 all this. And what we realised and understood was that the SDS, it would

2 appear that the SDS wanted to have 70 per cent of the surface area of the

3 town, including the town centre. Economically speaking, the industry and

4 commerce to be included into that portion.

5 Now, of course that was quite unacceptable to one and all, because

6 as I said a moment ago, this was not because this would mean the creation

7 of a Serb municipality but that other things would ensue, the kind that I

8 described a moment ago, delineation, demarcation, increased tension and a

9 potential conflict.

10 Q. But that's not what you asked me.

11 A. Mr. Milosevic, I want to answer your question. I do wish to

12 answer. So it was for this reason that I held a series of meetings with

13 representatives of different kinds, persons in authority from the populous

14 at large, of different ethnic groups, and in this -- I mean of the Bosniak

15 and Croatian communities, and the conclusion drawn was this: If we wish

16 to avoid a war conflict, we would have to accept their demands.

17 Now, one of the meetings that was to follow linked to what I'm

18 saying now was the meeting at Rasadnik or, rather, in Rasadnik, and the

19 members of the Serb ethnic group was there at the meeting. So if we

20 wanted to solve any inter-Bosniak questions, we wouldn't have invited him.

21 But he did come. There was this Serb representative and others too, I

22 believe. That meant that we did want to enter into a dialogue with the

23 population to decide what was to be done. So we discussed whether we were

24 going to accept their demands, and there was no talk of arming ourselves

25 or where we would be fighting in future. So that's what I wanted to say

Page 26220

1 with respect to that meeting.

2 So that was a pure invention that the meeting discussed war and

3 armaments and so on.

4 As far as the hospital in Maoca is concerned, I should like to say

5 that that particular hospital was set up during the war, after the war had

6 already broken out and after we had seen a large number of wounded persons

7 during the fighting, during combat, or persons who had escaped from the

8 centre of town. And as the hospital was in the town in this free area, we

9 didn't have a hospital. It was quite logical for us to set up a sort of

10 makeshift hospital. So that's what we chose. And it was a health centre

11 set up in the local school.

12 Q. All right, Mr. Ramic. As my time limited, may I ask you to answer

13 my questions and not elaborate. If you wish to say any additional things,

14 you can ask permission to do so.

15 Is it true that the topic of the meeting held in the Stari

16 Rasadnik local commune was the arming of Muslims and the fight against

17 Serbs? Yes or no.

18 A. It is not true that the subject we discussed was armament, arming.

19 Q. All right. Now, I'd like to exhibit this. This is an Official

20 Note by a state organ, and you will be able to assess what it says and the

21 weight it carries?

22 JUDGE MAY: Just before we go any further, hand it to the witness

23 first of all. Where does it come from, Mr. Milosevic? What is the state

24 organ?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The state organ is the Ministry of

Page 26221

1 the Interior, the public security station of Brcko.

2 JUDGE MAY: And the date?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 18th of October, 1995.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Show it to the witness, please.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And it deals with the time before

6 the war broke out on the 1st of May, 1992.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I've seen

8 this document. I haven't seen it previously, and I don't think that it is

9 correct. I think it is completely fabricated.

10 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we'll come to something that

12 you won't be able to challenge.

13 JUDGE MAY: We'll give it the exhibit number next.

14 THE REGISTRAR: D180.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Is it true and correct, sir --

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Is it true and correct, Mr. Ramic, that in Maoca and Gornji Rahici

20 as the leaders of the SDA you put up far before the conflict broke out the

21 wartime Presidency? You accommodated them; is that correct?

22 A. No, that is not correct.

23 Q. And did you indeed set up a war Presidency in Brcko?

24 A. A war Presidency in Brcko did not exist. What existed was the

25 Council for National Defence. And when I say that, Mr. Milosevic, I'm

Page 26222

1 sure you know that this institution was the kind that existed at the time,

2 a Council for National Defence. And at the head of it there was -- I was

3 at the head of it as mayor, but we also had the command of the garrison,

4 Lieutenant Colonel Milinkovic. The commander of the Territorial Defence

5 staff was also a member of the council, his name was Milisav Milutinovic.

6 The president of the Executive Board of the Brcko municipality, his name

7 was Pero Markovic, and so on. So the members reflected the multinational

8 character. There were Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs on that body. That was

9 what the situation was like until the war, until the conflict on the 1st

10 of May, 1992.

11 Q. And when did you set up your War Presidency in fact?

12 A. Well, the War Presidency or Crisis Staff, that is one and the same

13 thing, was formed by us after the war began, that is to say, after the 1st

14 of May, after the events that took place in town when the aggressor

15 occupied the town.

16 Q. All right. How far is it from Brcko to Brod?

17 A. Brod is on the --

18 Q. From Brcko to Bosanski Brod, I mean.

19 A. Oh, I see, Bosanski Brod. Well, I can't give you the exact

20 distance but it is about 80 kilometres.

21 Q. And do you know of an event that took place when the forces of the

22 Croatian army stormed the area, the village of Sijekovac and others, where

23 a large number of Serbs were killed far before these events took place in

24 Brcko itself?

25 A. I do know of the war conflicts and what took place but not that

Page 26223

1 particular event that you mentioned. At least I don't know the details.

2 Q. But what do you know about them? You know nothing?

3 A. I do know that there was fighting, and I do know that -- within

4 the war and that the army, the Yugoslav army, took up its positions, and I

5 also know that it was Croatia, I think, in that period that the Croatian

6 Defence Council was set up and that it assumed its positions. Anyway,

7 that there was a conflict in the area, that's what I know in general

8 terms.

9 Q. Very well, is it true that the Serbs living in the area of the

10 local commune of Stari Rasadnik several months before the conflict had to

11 leave their homes?

12 A. No, that is not true. What would the reason be for them to do

13 that?

14 Q. Very well. You say no, and we'll move on. Do you know who Suad

15 Omer is? Have you heard of that man?

16 A. I can't remember that name.

17 Q. Let me read to you an official report on the 21st of November,

18 1991, dated the 21st of November, 1991. As you can see, several months

19 before the outbreak of the conflict. And it says: "On the 21st of

20 November, 1991, during regular duties at the Sanski Most checkpoint we

21 stopped Zundo Omer, the son of Hasan, born in 1948, from Gunja who was

22 driving from Gunja to Brcko a wheelbarrow. When we checked the goods, we

23 found 10 automatic Kalashnikov rifles, 3 light machine guns, 20 hand

24 grenades and 1.600 pistol rounds of 62 millimetre calibre."

25 And then he goes on to explain who was supposed to meet him and

Page 26224

1 what he was supposed to do and it says that the report was compiled in the

2 SUP premises by policemen Mirsad Omerovic, as you see a Muslim policeman,

3 and Smailefendic Jasko when discovering the weapons at the Sanski Most

4 checkpoint. And the note was written and signed by Mirsad Omerovic and

5 Smailefendic Jasko, police station Brcko. It has its number 1338/91 and

6 the date is the 21st of November, 1991.

7 So 10 automatic Kalashnikovs, 3 machine-guns, 20 hand grenades,

8 1.600 bullets. Are you aware of that? You were then already president of

9 the municipality, were you?

10 A. I heard of that case.

11 Q. You can look at this and I wish to tender it into evidence as

12 well. And I wish to draw your attention that it is dated November 1991.

13 And the conflict, as you say, broke out on the 1st of May the following

14 year?

15 A. Do you wish my comment? I heard about it --

16 Q. Well I asked you --

17 JUDGE MAY: One at a time. Let the witness look at the document.

18 If you have any comments about it, then make them.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But in this document it also

20 says the following: "After the weapons passed by and talking to Suad

21 Omer, we learned that he intended to carry the weapons across the bridge

22 where he was due to meet with certain gentlemen from Zvornik for whom he

23 had to carry the weapons across the bridge because they had paid 200 marks

24 for this service. They were to have met him with a vehicle to take over

25 the weapons." So that is the complete report.

Page 26225

1 JUDGE MAY: You must let him finish.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I am trying to say is that I am

3 familiar with this event. The police in those days told me that this had

4 happened in this way. However, this was not a system of arming the

5 citizens of Brcko because, as you see, this was a case of smuggling of

6 weapons.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. But that was my next question. At the time, as president of the

9 municipality, were you aware that those weapons were to have been handed

10 to Blasko Lovric, Drago Franjic, and Marin Zecevic from Zvornik?

11 A. I can't remember all the details with accuracy, but what I do

12 remember is that this was a classical case of arms smuggling, arms

13 trafficking.

14 Q. So arms trafficking in Brcko. Were they Serbs?

15 A. No. From Croatia into Bosnia and Herzegovina. At the time, I was

16 not informed what was the final destination of those weapons, but clearly

17 the man that you mention was just somebody who was carrying those weapons

18 from Croatia to Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And who was supposed to give it to Blasko Lovric, Drago Franjic,

21 and Marin Zecevic from Zvornik.

22 A. Yes. I believe that this document is authentic.

23 Q. Very well.

24 JUDGE MAY: It will be given a number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: D181.

Page 26226

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. May?

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Tell me, please, as the town mayor, did you know that police

5 officers Mirsad Omerovic and Sefik Hasanovic, on the 10th of November,

6 1991, the 10th of November, 1991 - both policemen are Muslims - at the

7 Savski Most checkpoint, stopped a passenger vehicle, a Yugo 45 with

8 licence plates OS149068, driven by a certain Radosava Ivanic, accompanied

9 with Vinko Vucicevic, Gasparovic Zeljko, and Terzic Antun, all from

10 Zupanja and Babina Greda in Croatia? Do you know anything about that

11 incident?

12 A. I cannot remember that.

13 Q. At the time, pistols were confiscated, rifles, a sniper, bombs, 18

14 kilogrammes of explosives -- I underline this: 18 kilogrammes of

15 explosives -- bullets packed in 200-gram packages each, plus 1.100 grams

16 of Vitezit explosives, three sabotage time fuses, pistol bullets, et

17 cetera, et cetera. So this is the official report dated the 10th of

18 November, 1991, compiled in the police station in Brcko and signed by

19 Omerovic Mirsad, a Muslim by name and surname, and Hasanovic Sefik, also a

20 Muslim, and it contains all these details, including seven detonators,

21 fuses, and other things in addition to the weapons, explosives, together

22 with all the accompanying devices for provoking explosives and destroying

23 facilities. And then it says who was in the vehicle. I asked you. You

24 don't know anything about it, but please look at this official report.

25 Are you informed about it?

Page 26227

1 A. No. I don't remember that. I'd like to see it, though.

2 Q. Yes, please do. It has a number, a date, and a signature.

3 A. I see this for the first time, and I don't remember this report.

4 However, Your Honours, I would like to provide an explanation. Please

5 bear in mind that policemen who thwarted this in both these documents were

6 of Bosniak ethnicity. I wish to add to this that one of the two from the

7 previous document, called Smailefendic Jasko, or Jasmin, was killed during

8 the war on the side of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 Therefore, what I'm trying to say is it was not logical for a

10 system of arming of citizens to exist and for an organised force to have

11 been involved in this, a political or statal force, but that this was just

12 arms trafficking. This was a period of intensified fighting in the

13 immediate vicinity in Croatia. Brcko is on the border. And for months

14 throughout that period we could hear shooting and during the night one

15 could see flashes from the fighting. So that was the atmosphere that

16 existed. So it's no wonder that there was arms smuggling as well.

17 JUDGE MAY: Let us -- before we go any further, let us get a

18 number for this exhibit.

19 THE REGISTRAR: D182.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I too wish to point out, and I did so when reading it out to you,

22 that the policemen were Muslims and that they seized weapons that were

23 being smuggled from Croatia into Bosnia and Herzegovina. And what you are

24 saying only shows that those people were not involved, but it doesn't mean

25 that this was not organised. Those men, of course, were not implicated.

Page 26228

1 Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing the arrests.

2 Now, as you say that you're not aware of this as president of the

3 municipality, though you should have been because it is important, that on

4 that day, the 10th of November, 1991, those same persons had intended, at

5 the Brcko rail station, to carry out a sabotage, an act of sabotage and

6 blow up a military convoy. And testifying to this is a document of the

7 Brcko police, a criminal report against these persons. All these persons

8 are listed, these same persons, and then it goes on to say - I'm just

9 quoting a part of it - the intention being that same night they intended

10 to use the explosives and to plant them to blow up a railway convoy with

11 military vehicles on them, but they didn't succeed because at 2200 hours

12 they were stopped, searched, and these things found on them. As a result,

13 they committed a criminal offence, and the head of the public security

14 station, Stjepan Filipovic, addresses this criminal report to the public

15 prosecutor in Brcko on the 10th of November, 1991.

16 So the intention was to blow up a military transport at the Brcko

17 railway station. Are you aware of that or not, in view of the fact that

18 you were president of the municipality at the time?

19 A. I didn't receive the explanation that you are reading to me now,

20 but I would like to add the following: This proves simultaneously the

21 activities of the authorities in Brcko at the time to prevent any kind of

22 import or allowing things that could lead to instability and tension.

23 So precisely this document testifies to that when you spoke of

24 Stjepan Filipovic as the chief of police. So he's acting in that

25 capacity.

Page 26229

1 Q. I'm talking about what was going on. As for what the policemen

2 did, that was their duty to do it. But this is an act of sabotage. This

3 is a criminal report, criminal charges dated November 1991. I wish to

4 tender that too, please.

5 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness see it first, and if he has any

6 comments, he can make them.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have occasion to see this

8 document. I see it for the first time, and I believe that the police

9 headed by the chief of police, Stjepan Filipovic, was actually

10 implementing our own political wish and policy to avoid any conflict in

11 Brcko.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Ramic, I do believe that the police in those days was still

14 implementing the law and not your political will or desire, because this

15 was an act of sabotage. But do you know that one of the accused --

16 JUDGE MAY: Just wait a moment. You can't make comments like that

17 when you're supposed to be examining.

18 The accused suggests that all Filipovic was doing was implementing

19 the law, it's said, and not your political will. Now, his having made

20 that comment, you're entitled to respond, Mr. Ramic, if you want to, or

21 not.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say the following: I

23 believe that Mr. Milosevic is trying to prove to us that we were creating

24 the conditions for the outbreak of the conflict by being witnesses and

25 accomplices to the arming, and that is what in fact he said in reference

Page 26230

1 to that meeting in Stari Rasadnik. I wanted to respond by saying that the

2 political authorities, the state authorities in those days were

3 endeavouring and striving to implement the law, and the political will of

4 all the people in power, the multi-ethnic authorities in those days, had

5 that same desire. So their views and wishes were identical.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. May?

7 JUDGE MAY: We'll get an exhibit number for the last exhibit to be

8 handed in, the last police report.

9 THE REGISTRAR: D183.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Do you know that one of the accused, Radosav Ivanic gave a

13 statement to the effect that with the others, he was to plant explosives

14 for this military transport carrying guns and caterpillar tractors, heavy

15 vehicles, armoured vehicles, et cetera, which were to be transported to

16 Serbia? That was this military transport that was at the railway station.

17 A. I think there was no military transport going from Brcko to

18 Serbia. Quite the opposite, all military transports came to Brcko. So

19 such events did not take place. I am not aware of that name, but I also

20 have an additional explanation and question or, rather, reply. Are you

21 claiming that among those members there wasn't a single man of Serb

22 ethnicity?

23 Q. Which members? Those who were going to blow up the military

24 transport?

25 A. Yes, those who had such intentions.

Page 26231

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Page 26232

1 Q. I'm not entering into that. The point is that it was intended

2 against the JNA, and judging by the surnames, they were Croats or Muslims,

3 as far as I can tell.

4 A. I'm not quite sure that they were all Croats. What I'm trying to

5 say is that there was no military transport carrying military equipment

6 from Brcko to Serbia. Quite the opposite. Military materiel and military

7 contingents and troops came to Brcko.

8 Q. But this military transport at the station ready to leave surely

9 would have been unloaded if it had arrived there. Isn't it clear,

10 Mr. Ramic, that when you're talking about the amassing of weapons by the

11 JNA in Brcko in the spring of 1991 you're saying quite the opposite from

12 the official information, that already in 1991 heavy weapons were

13 transferred from Brcko to Serbia already in 1991? You have the Official

14 Note here, an official report compiled after an interview with Radoslav

15 Ivanic, Osijek municipality, a resident of that municipality, et cetera,

16 regarding the circumstances of the act of terrorism at the railway station

17 in Brcko?

18 A. I am claiming that military materiel and military equipment and

19 weapons were only coming to Brcko, that nothing went from Brcko in the

20 direction of Serbia.

21 Q. A moment ago when I asked you about this interception and

22 confiscation of weapons that you didn't know anything about it. You now

23 appear to have some knowledge.

24 A. That is not true. You asked me a moment ago whether I knew of

25 that incident, and now you're asking me whether military materiel was

Page 26233

1 going from Brcko to Serbia, and this is my response to that question.

2 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Now, we have come to the time when we

3 should adjourn.

4 Mr. Milosevic, you will have had one hour cross-examining this

5 witness already. We bear in mind that this is a transcript witness and an

6 important one, and therefore you should have longer than the usual time.

7 We've considered how much longer you should have. I note that the witness

8 in the original trial was one hour and a half in chief. Bearing all those

9 matters in mind, we consider you should have another three-quarters of an

10 hour to cross-examine this witness. That will be in the morning.

11 Yes.

12 MR. NICE: May I, through Your Honours, remind the amicus, I'm

13 sure they don't need reminding, but associates, that Mr. Saxon has

14 organised one of his regular Rule 68 meetings this afternoon, and it will

15 of course be of great assistance to the proper discharge of our Rule 68

16 duties if not only the amicus but the associates can attend, as they've

17 been invited to do on previous occasions.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. They will have heard that.

19 We will adjourn now. Nine o'clock tomorrow -- nine o'clock

20 tomorrow morning.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

22 JUDGE MAY: What is it, Mr. Milosevic?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to tender this note

24 regarding the circumstances of the terrorist act at the railway station in

25 Brcko compiled on the 10th of November, 1991, as an exhibit, please.

Page 26234

1 JUDGE MAY: Is it an official report?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, an official report. It

3 has a number, a date, the 10th of November, 1991, and it has to do with

4 the circumstances of the terrorist act at the railway station in Brcko.

5 JUDGE MAY: What we will do is this, that when we return tomorrow

6 morning, the witness can have a look at it. We will take it now, and we

7 will return to it tomorrow morning. It can be given the next exhibit

8 number meanwhile.

9 THE REGISTRAR: D184.

10 JUDGE MAY: And you'll let us know -- yes. We'll take that in,

11 and we'll ask the witness about it in the morning, D184. And

12 Mr. Milosevic, you will let us know tomorrow morning, we shall ask you

13 whether you have any extra questions for the last witness. You remember

14 there was some additional material.

15 We will adjourn --

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I manage to read those 100-odd

17 pages in addition to everything else.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nine o'clock tomorrow morning,

20 please.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 1.59 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

23 the 10th day of September, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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