Page 26114
1 Tuesday, 9 September 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it's three 92 bis witnesses today, but
7 before we come to those, can I respectfully remind the Chamber that the
8 witness we seek to call tomorrow is subject to an application yet to be
9 resolved, and I didn't know if the Chamber was in a position to assist us
10 for planning purposes.
11 JUDGE MAY: Which witness is that?
12 MR. NICE: Mr. Van Baal
13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Van Baal. We will let you have a decision this
14 morning.
15 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like for the record to say
17 that I don't think it is in order -- actually, I don't think what Mr. Nice
18 said on Thursday was in order, while I wasn't here, because he said that I
19 have some sort of scheme according to which -- and pattern, which is why I
20 was absent on Thursday. From that, it would emerge that I myself,
21 according to this pattern, organised every day last week to have been kept
22 here for several hours, which means that I myself curtailed my time for
23 rest and preparation, and it would appear, according to that logic, that I
24 organised the prolongation of the work here. And quite simply, I should
25 like to state that that kind of statement on a moral and intellectual
Page 26115
1 level at which this so-called entire -- so-called indictment is based.
2 And for you I have a criticism personally, Mr. May, because you
3 drew conclusions without having --
4 JUDGE MAY: I'm not going to listen to this, Mr. Milosevic. In
5 your absence, a comment was made by the Prosecutor as to a pattern of your
6 illness. He went no further than that and made no further suggestions. If
7 he had done, we would have ordered something to be done about it.
8 As for any other orders we may have made, we will consider the
9 position. We now have a medical report, and we'll consider the position
10 further.
11 Now, have you got any other submissions?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I was just going to say,
13 Mr. May, that before you collected all the pertinent information, you drew
14 conclusions, and you could have come by that information from your staff,
15 either from the detention centre or the medical staff.
16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. We will have the next witness.
17 MR. AGHA: The Prosecution would like to call Witness B-1058.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
19 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, in the meantime, perhaps, since we're
20 waiting for the witness to come, Your Honours have all been distributed
21 with a package. Would Your Honours be so kind as perhaps to give that an
22 exhibit number, please.
23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll get the next exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P531.
25 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps the registrar would note we'll do without the
Page 26116
1 P numbers in this case. I know other cases do, but we don't. Just give
2 it -- Prosecution numbers get the straight number. 531.
3 MR. AGHA: I'd just like to clarify, Your Honours; it should be
4 tendered under seal.
5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd take a seat.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1058
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Mr. Agha:
14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We can raise the blinds and go on.
15 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness her pseudonym
16 sheet, which can be found at tab number 1 of your package.
17 JUDGE MAY: We can do that, but is there any reason why the blinds
18 should not be raised? Can we raise them, please.
19 MR. AGHA:
20 Q. Witness, is that your name on the top of that sheet, please?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that sheet has been signed by you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. AGHA: Could I kindly also please show the witness the 92 bis
Page 26117
1 package. This can be found at tab 2, Your Honours.
2 Q. Witness, is this the statement you made before investigators of
3 the Tribunal?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And, Witness, is this also the statement which you certified and
6 declared before the court officers of the Tribunal?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, I'd also like to show the witness a
9 document that is at tab 4 of your binder. Tab 3. I beg your pardon.
10 Q. Witness, is this a document which you have made and also signed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. AGHA: Your Honours, this is a 92 bis witness, so if it
14 pleases Your Honours, I'll just briefly read out the essence of the
15 witness's testimony.
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
17 MR. AGHA: At the time of the incidents mentioned in this summary,
18 the witness had been living in Zvornik with her husband and two sons for
19 the last 20 years. Prior to the war in Zvornik, a majority of the
20 population were Muslim.
21 In 1991, the witness saw the fall of Vukovar in Croatia on
22 Belgrade television. At the time, she could hardly believe this and
23 thought that she was watching old World War II footage. In March 1992,
24 she saw on television the events in Bijeljina, which again she could
25 hardly believe. However, her sister, who was living in Bijeljina, told
Page 26118
1 the witness that it was true and that their other sister's two sons had
2 been murdered outside the garrison in Bijeljina.
3 The first indications of the spreading of war to Zvornik occurred
4 a few days before the attack on Zvornik when there was small-arms fire
5 coming from Mali Zvornik and the arrival of tanks in the area.
6 On April the 8th, negotiations were held in Mali Zvornik with
7 Arkan, who represented the Serbs. Witness B-1237 was present who, after
8 the meeting, came to the witness and told her that the situation was grave
9 and advised her to leave.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down, thank you.
11 MR. AGHA: I beg your pardon, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MAY: You're being asked to slow down.
13 MR. AGHA: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
14 The witness, however, decided to stay as she had Serb friends and
15 had not done anything wrong.
16 The attack on Zvornik commenced later in the evening when Zvornik
17 was shelled from Mali Zvornik. The witness and other people who were
18 living in her apartment block in Filipa Kljajica Street took cover in the
19 cellar of the building. The cellar became full. In the cellar there were
20 about 12 men, 15 to 16 women, three children and two babies.
21 In the morning at about 10.00, the witness heard a strong
22 detonation and the door to the cellar was exploded open. Immediately
23 after the door was opened, about ten soldiers wearing camouflage uniforms,
24 black wooly hats rolled down as masks, and fingerless gloves burst into
25 the cellar and threatened them with long rifles. The witness could tell
Page 26119
1 that they were Serbs by their accents.
2 The people in the cellar were told to hand over their weapons and
3 the men were ordered outside to be searched. No one in the cellar had any
4 weapons, not even a pocket knife. The women and children were rushed out
5 of the cellar. However, the witness saw the men from the cellar with
6 their hands on their heads and with their backs facing the apartment
7 building.
8 The witness was the last person out of the cellar and was ordered
9 not to look round and to go to the SUP building. One soldier forced the
10 witness to move by putting a rifle to her back and cursed her.
11 After the witness had walked about 20 kilometres [sic] from the
12 cellar, she heard a simultaneous burst of gunfire from behind. The
13 witness tried to look around, but the soldiers poked her in the back with
14 the rifles and prevented her from doing so. According to the witness, the
15 gunshots could only have come from the area outside the apartment building
16 where the men from the cellar were lined up.
17 On the way to the SUP building, the witness saw two dead bodies
18 lying outside houses. Loud Chetnik music was also being played out of
19 cassette players as the witness walked down the street. The witness and
20 the others were made to go inside the library which is opposite the SUP
21 building where other soldiers were abusive to them and cursing Alija
22 Izetbegovic.
23 The soldiers in the library told the witness that they were
24 Seselj's men and that they were the good guys and that all the killings
25 had been done by Arkan's men. The witness knew that this was not true as
Page 26120
1 Seselj's men had also fully participated in the killing of the men in the
2 cellar.
3 Whilst the witness was in the library, a Serb woman named Vera was
4 allowed by the soldiers to go back to the apartment building to change her
5 clothes. When Vera came back, she told another lady in the library that
6 she had seen the awful sight of the dead bodies of the men who had been
7 taken out of the cellar. Other women who later arrived in the library
8 also said that they had seen the dead bodies of the witness's men outside
9 their apartment building.
10 Later in the day, Arkan came to the library and told them that he
11 would send buses to pick them up. The buses arrived on the same day, and
12 the witness and the others were herded onto them. Whilst travelling
13 through Zvornik, the witness saw many other dead bodies lying in the
14 garden of houses. Before the bus left Zvornik, four men were taken off
15 the bus. The witness never saw these men again. The witness was dropped
16 off in Banja Koviljaca in Serbia.
17 About a week later, the witness and a friend returned to Zvornik
18 to find out what had happened to the bodies of their men. The witness was
19 directed to the Serb headquarters in Karakaj where their commander told
20 her that the men she was looking for were not on any of their lists and
21 she could go home.
22 As the witness was leaving to walk the three kilometres back into
23 Zvornik, she saw a truck which was about to leave, and the commander told
24 the witness to get a lift back on the truck. The soldiers in the truck,
25 however, were not prepared to take the "balijas," so they had to walk on
Page 26121
1 foot.
2 The witness then went to see Grujic who was president of the Serb
3 municipality. Grujic, however, told the witness that he could not help
4 her and that there was no longer a place for Muslims in Zvornik.
5 The witness briefly went back to her own apartment block and at
6 the spot where she had last seen the men from the cellar saw her husband's
7 hat and one of her son's sports shoes on the ground covered in blood.
8 There was also blood which was peppered bullet holes on the walls. On the
9 ground, the witness also saw a number of spent bullets and three or four
10 garotte wires.
11 Of the men who were taken from the cellar and killed outside, one
12 was the witness's husband and two others were her sons, aged 22 and 24 at
13 that time.
14 Now, if Your Honours may permit me, I would just like to show,
15 under seal, one or two exhibits and ask the witness to comment on those.
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
17 MR. AGHA:
18 Q. Now, the first photograph is at tab number 4, and I would kindly
19 ask the witness, please, to tell me if she can identify who that person is
20 in the picture.
21 A. My husband. My husband.
22 Q. And could I also please ask the witness to look at the picture
23 which is in tab number 5 and ask the witness, please, to identify the
24 people in that picture if she can.
25 A. My two sons.
Page 26122
1 Q. And finally, I would like to show the witness another picture
2 which has already previously been tendered.
3 A. Arkan and that other associate of his. I don't know what his name
4 is. But one is Arkan.
5 JUDGE MAY: Is there an exhibit number for that exhibit, Mr. Agha.
6 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour. 414, tab 1.
7 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
8 MR. AGHA:
9 Q. Thank you, Witness.
10 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honours. That finishes the evidence in
11 chief for this witness.
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, before I start examining
14 this witness, I have a question. In point 7 of the statement, mention is
15 made of a man by name and surname, somebody who attended negotiations in
16 Zvornik, in actual fact. Now, is that a protected name or not?
17 JUDGE MAY: I don't recognise it for the minute, but I will ask
18 Mr. Agha's assistance.
19 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, that indeed is a protected witness who has
20 already given evidence in these proceedings.
21 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, it's protected then.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it the protected witness who Mr.
23 Agha Khan mentioned under pseudonym of 1237? Is that the one?
24 JUDGE MAY: We will get it checked.
25 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour, protective measures.
Page 26123
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Fine.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Madam 1058, I'm just going to ask you questions
4 which I consider to be important in order to establish the truthfulness of
5 this. I shall do my best not to hurt you with any of my questions in view
6 of the fact that you lost your husband and your son, according to what it
7 says here in your statement.
8 A. Two sons.
9 Q. You said that on Belgrade television in 1991, you saw the station
10 reporting about the events in Vukovar, and in March 1992, a film, as you
11 say, about the war in Bijeljina; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You yourself say that you believed that it was intimidation,
14 instilling fear and that that was something -- some footage from World War
15 II; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you learnt about both these events via Belgrade television, and
18 you didn't actually believe what you were seeing; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You also say, in paragraph 5, that your sister, who lived in
21 Bijeljina, in a telephone conversation told you that she was so frightened
22 that she couldn't exactly tell you what was happening in Bijeljina; is
23 that right?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Well, is it also true that the sons of your sister were also
Page 26124
1 killed?
2 A. Of my other sister, not the one I -- not this one.
3 Q. You mean not the one you were talking to on that occasion?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances under which they were killed?
6 Do you know?
7 A. Well, they were killed because Arkan's men took them away to the
8 garrison, and the children later asked to go and see their grandmother to
9 tell her where they were and that they would come back straight away. The
10 children did come back, but in coming back, they shot at them.
11 Q. Do you know who shot at them?
12 A. I wasn't there, so I didn't see it myself, but they were killed by
13 Arkan's men and by the Serbs.
14 Q. Did anybody tell you who shot at them of the people who were
15 there?
16 A. Well, nobody was there when they killed them. They just met them
17 on the road.
18 Q. How many people were killed in Bijeljina, lost their lives?
19 A. I don't know. I can't say. But many people died. How many
20 exactly, I really don't know.
21 Q. You say, paragraph 6, that you didn't know until the very outbreak
22 of the conflict in Zvornik that the conflict would take place; is that
23 right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it also true that everyone else was saying that there would be
Page 26125
1 no conflict?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then you say that there were negotiations and that a man who
4 had the pseudonym 1237 here and who was an official in Zvornik attended;
5 is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you know that also because later on that same man who attended
8 the negotiations came to your house and told you that it had been agreed
9 that the Muslims should surrender their weapons; is that right?
10 A. He said that things would not be good and that we should flee.
11 Q. He told you to flee or that it wouldn't be a good thing for you to
12 flee?
13 A. He told us to flee, that things would not be good.
14 Q. And you say in paragraph 7 that this man, after that meeting,
15 "came to our house and told us that it had been agreed that the Muslims
16 surrender their weapons."
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you know what position that man held?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You didn't know what position he had in the municipality or the
21 Territorial Defence?
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. Well, tell me, then, why did he come to your particular house?
24 Was he a friend or relative of yours?
25 A. He had a sister.
Page 26126
1 Q. In your house?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So he said that it had been agreed for the Muslims to hand over
4 the weapons they owned. Those people who broke into the cellar in Zvornik
5 told us that weapons should be handed in and that the men should be
6 searched, and that is how they took out the men.
7 JUDGE MAY: Can I remind you, please, both the witness and
8 Mr. Milosevic, remember that this has to be interpreted, so can you leave
9 breaks between the questions and the answers.
10 Now, you should have that in mind, Mr. Milosevic, because you've
11 done it often enough before, but it will be new to the witness, but can
12 you both leave breaks.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. May.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I was saying that he told you that the Muslims should hand over
16 the weapons they possessed, because I'm reading from your statement in
17 paragraph 7: "He told us that an agreement had been made for the Muslims
18 to hand over their weapons." Is that right, Madam 1058?
19 A. He knew that we didn't have any weapons.
20 Q. I not entering into that.
21 A. But I don't know.
22 Q. But that's what you said in your statement, and you confirmed it a
23 moment ago and signed it. So you don't remember that?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Very well. But he also advised you to leave Zvornik.
Page 26127
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 26128
1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. Though you yourself claimed that you had more friends among the
3 Serbs than among the Muslims.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Tell me, do you know what he had given similar advice to other
6 Muslims?
7 A. Those of us who were in the cellar.
8 Q. Very well. So only to you who were there, that's how you know.
9 That's what you know about.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In paragraph 8 you say the attacks started in the afternoon of the
12 8th of April.
13 A. In the evening, yes.
14 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear that question.
15 JUDGE MAY: Can you repeat the question, please.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Are you quite sure that the attack on Zvornik, as you describe it
18 in paragraph 8, commenced on the 8th of April? You are specifying now in
19 the evening of the 8th of April.
20 A. Very well.
21 Q. And that is when you went to the cellar of your building?
22 A. No. We went before that.
23 Q. Before that?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. What -- what prompted you to go into the basement before then if
Page 26129
1 the attack started later? Had you been informed about the conflict
2 beginning?
3 A. Because they were saying that we should seek shelter in the
4 basements, that we shouldn't go outside, that we shouldn't walk in the
5 streets, that we should seek shelter in the basement.
6 Q. And who told you that?
7 A. Well, on the radio there were such announcements.
8 Q. That was radio Zvornik, I assume, the local radio.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that is when you went to the basement of your building?
11 A. It was a Sunday, I don't remember the date, when we went down to
12 the basement, and we stayed there throughout.
13 Q. As you say, there were another 12 or so men, 15 women and
14 children; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you spent the night there up until 10.00 a.m. on the next
17 morning, that is the 9th of April; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Tell me, please, the men who were with you that night, did they
20 leave at all?
21 A. No. No, they didn't.
22 Q. So they stayed in the shelter all the time?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And as Mr. Kahn noted a moment ago, none of them were armed; is
25 that right?
Page 26130
1 A. No one.
2 Q. So you're quite sure of that?
3 A. Quite sure.
4 Q. And then about 10.00 you say there was a strong detonation which
5 caused the door to break down and ten men broke in, wearing camouflage
6 uniform, you say.
7 A. Ten or so. I can't be quite sure about the number, but ten or so.
8 Q. Can you describe those camouflage uniforms.
9 A. You know very well what camouflage uniforms looked like. You know
10 that very well. Black. And you could just see their mouths and eyes.
11 Those were the caps which covered their faces, with slits for eyes and
12 mouth. You know that very well. I don't need to describe them to you.
13 Q. What did they want from you?
14 A. They wanted the men to come outside, allegedly to be searched.
15 Q. How many of them were speaking?
16 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
17 Q. You say that by their accent, by their dialect, you judged that
18 they were from Serbia. So you must have heard them speak.
19 A. Yes, that's right. Two or three of them. I don't remember.
20 Q. You can't say what the others were on the basis of their speech?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. And is it possible that some of them were locals?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Very well. You say that you were separated from the men, and the
25 women and children were ordered to move towards the SUP of Zvornik, and
Page 26131
1 the men stayed behind in front of the entrance to the building. Is that
2 exactly how it happened?
3 A. Yes, exactly so.
4 Q. Now, tell me, please, how much time went by until you heard the
5 shots.
6 A. Five minutes, not more.
7 Q. How far had you gone in those five minutes?
8 A. Maybe 200 metres.
9 Q. At the time, you didn't know what had happened to the men from
10 your building; is that right?
11 A. They opened fire when we had moved away, some 200 metres away,
12 they started shooting. I started -- I wanted to turn around, however, the
13 soldier was pointing his automatic rifle at my back.
14 Q. So you didn't manage to turn around, and you couldn't see
15 anything.
16 A. No, they didn't let me.
17 Q. In paragraph 11, you say that moving towards the SUP you saw the
18 body of Hakija Sehic and Fehim Kujundzic, but you're not sure of that
19 because you couldn't see properly.
20 A. I am sure.
21 Q. Now you're sure?
22 A. Yes, I'm sure. I saw them.
23 Q. But as you say here that you didn't see it quite well, how is it
24 that you're quite sure that it was one of these two?
25 A. Of course I'm sure when they were my neighbours.
Page 26132
1 Q. And then you say that you saw a certain Izet. From what distance
2 did you see him?
3 A. About 400 metres. This is all one street.
4 Q. Very well. And how is it that you're sure from such a distance
5 that those were all bodies of Muslims and there wasn't a single Serb?
6 A. There was no distance; it wasn't far away.
7 Q. Very well. How far away it was is relative. You go on to say
8 that you were sure that Arkan's took part in all these killings; is that
9 right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Where were the local Serbs throughout that period of time?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Did you see anyone?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You say that those same soldiers broke into a sweet shop and
16 distributed sweets to children. Were there Muslim children among them?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So they were killing Muslims and giving Muslim children chocolates
19 and sweets.
20 A. Yes, to learn from the children whether there were any weapons,
21 who had those weapons, and so on.
22 Q. Why were they giving them sweets?
23 A. Because you know what children are like; they wanted to learn from
24 the children things.
25 Q. How do you know that they questioned them?
Page 26133
1 A. I was there.
2 Q. So you heard them questioning the children?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And later on a Serb woman that is mentioned here by the name of
5 Vera, so I won't read out her surname, and two Muslim women, Raza and
6 Sadija - is that right - and a third, Zuhra, told you that they had seen
7 dead people in front of your building; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And it was then that you had no doubts as to the fact that they
10 had been killed? That they had been killed; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, tell me, please, a week later you went to Zvornik again with
13 your sister from Bijeljina.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. To find out what had happened to all the people who had been with
16 you in the cellar; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then you say that you spoke to a person called Dragan Nikolic.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that after looking through two lists, he told you that he
21 hadn't seen the names of any family members that you were looking for on
22 those lists; is that --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So what was the conclusion you drew from that?
25 A. What had happened.
Page 26134
1 Q. Since you're speaking about wires and things, does that mean that
2 the men who were with you in the shelter were first tied up?
3 A. I didn't see it, so I can't say.
4 Q. So you didn't see anyone tying them up.
5 A. I didn't.
6 Q. And you heard shots five minutes after you had left the house?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Madam 1058, tell me, please, when did you see this person whom we
9 mentioned -- of course you can't remember these numbers. The pseudonym is
10 1237 of this person. When did you last see this man after he came to see
11 you after the negotiations? I don't want to mention his name as he is
12 protected.
13 A. I never saw him again since then.
14 Q. After he had told you to surrender your weapons and to leave?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. As he's a protected -- do you know that he was a witness here
17 sometime ago?
18 A. No, I don't know that.
19 Q. He testified here, saying, among other things, that he personally
20 saw, from a distance of 500 metres, your husband and son being killed.
21 A. Many people saw it.
22 Q. But that differs very much from what you are saying. Where are
23 the other ten people, then? He was talking about seeing the two of them.
24 JUDGE MAY: The witness can only say what she saw. Now, whether
25 somebody else claims to have seen something different from 500 metres away
Page 26135
1 is maybe a matter of comment, that's all, but the witness can't answer as
2 to what somebody else saw.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, this is allegedly a witness
4 of the killing, the testimony of an eyewitness, and quite clearly these
5 facts differ.
6 JUDGE MAY: Are you seriously suggesting that this witness is not
7 telling the truth in describing what happened when her husband and two
8 sons were killed? Are you suggesting that?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I just wish to establish
10 what truly happened, and the witness herself says that she didn't see it.
11 All she knows is that her family members were killed, but she doesn't know
12 under which circumstances nor where or how. She just assumes.
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But -- just one moment. She saw them lined up,
14 facing the apartment building, with their hands on their heads. She then
15 heard the gunfire. Now, that is what she can say. Subsequently, they
16 were killed or they were killed at the time. But she can't take it any
17 further. That's her evidence. That's what she said happened.
18 Now, if there's any doubt about what happened, then of course you
19 can make a point to us. It will be up to us to decide. But I don't think
20 this witness can take it very much further. She said what she saw, and
21 there's no doubt that these men were killed.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The only question is whether they
23 were killed in battle or somebody shot them in cold blood.
24 JUDGE MAY: Are you seriously suggesting that these men were in
25 some sort of battle? Is that what you're seriously suggesting, and that
Page 26136
1 this witness is not telling the truth about her husband and two sons? If
2 you are, you should say so, so that she may deal with it.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I cannot claim anything
4 with respect to Zvornik because I don't know, but we do have two different
5 statements by this witness and Witness 1237.
6 JUDGE MAY: There is no point -- there is no point arguing about
7 it now. It will be for us to decide if there's any significance in these
8 differences which you claim. But really, we shouldn't detain this witness
9 here any more, but if you're suggesting in any way that she is not telling
10 the truth about what happened to her husband and two sons, then you should
11 say so.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not have any information about
13 this, Mr. May, as to what happened to her husband and her sons, but I do
14 have information about what the witness has been saying and what this
15 other witness said who is an alleged eyewitness. There is a major
16 difference involved.
17 JUDGE MAY: That is what you say. It will be a matter for us to
18 say whether there is any significance.
19 Now, have you any other questions for this witness or not?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a few questions.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. A very direct question, Madam 1058: Are you sure that your
23 husband and son were not participants in the battles in Zvornik and around
24 Zvornik on that day?
25 A. One hundred per cent certain. I vouch that with my very own life.
Page 26137
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the question.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never found out where they
3 were. Had they had any weapons, they would have been in the woods, they
4 would not have been in the cellar. You should understand that.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Since they were not found, it could not have been established how
7 they lost their lives. So you do not have any information about that, do
8 you?
9 A. You ask Grujic where he moved them, from one graveyard to another
10 grave and then to a third grave, where they were being taken from one
11 grave to another. It was Grujic who did that.
12 Q. I can't ask him about that. I don't know about him moving people
13 this way.
14 A. Well, I know that he did move from one grave to another.
15 Q. Tell me, Madam 1058, you left Zvornik on the 9th of April, 1992;
16 is that right?
17 A. Yes, when I was expelled.
18 Q. And a week later, you came back and again the same day you went
19 back to Bijeljina; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So you only briefly returned on that day a week later.
22 A. I could not have stayed when they were expelling all Muslims,
23 expelling and killing them.
24 Q. Do you live in Zvornik nowadays?
25 A. No.
Page 26138
1 Q. And during the war, did you come to Zvornik again?
2 A. I came when they asked us to come and to report in order to
3 receive accommodation, but they killed many, many people, then caught them
4 and killed them. I didn't mention this in my statement. It's not in the
5 statement. I said it now so that you'd know.
6 Q. All right. When was this that you came to Zvornik again?
7 A. In the beginning of May.
8 Q. What year?
9 A. 1992.
10 Q. So a week after the 9th of April you were there and the beginning
11 of May yet again?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Why did you come again in the beginning of May?
14 A. They asked us to come and to register with the SUP, allegedly, in
15 order to receive accommodation. People who had houses, apartments, were
16 supposed to register their names so that it would be known that they were
17 alive so that they could get their property back or give it up.
18 Q. So did you register there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Why didn't you stay in your own house?
21 A. I couldn't stay.
22 Q. Could you please explain this? I don't understand. They asked
23 you to come to register there?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And to continue living there normally?
Page 26139
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So why didn't you stay?
3 A. Well, they killed everybody.
4 Q. Oh, they killed everybody who came back?
5 A. Yes, all of those who registered and who stayed on. They were
6 killed.
7 Q. How much time did you spend this other time when you were there in
8 the beginning of May?
9 A. Three or four days. It's not in my statement, and I don't see why
10 you should ask me about this.
11 Q. Although it's not in your statement, you are speaking about it
12 now.
13 A. All right. I should make it clear that I know everything.
14 Q. I do want it to be established, what actually happened, that is.
15 Now, tell me, please, you recognised some people here in some
16 photographs. I received this file of yours.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The photographs of some persons whom you recognised.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And these are the people who barged into the cellar; is that
21 right?
22 A. Yes. No, not everybody. Arkan did not enter the cellar.
23 Q. I'm not talking about Arkan. You could have seen Arkan on
24 television.
25 A. No, not on television. I saw him myself.
Page 26140
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 26141
1 Q. All right. So you saw him yourself. Tell me, please, how could
2 you recognise these people who had been in the cellar if they, as you had
3 described it yourself, had caps drawn down their faces with slits for the
4 eyes and mouths only?
5 A. Not everybody was masked. I already said that. There were some
6 people who were not masked. They introduced themselves as being Seselj's
7 men. Those who were not masked said that they were Seselj's men.
8 Q. All right. That means that when you say that they entered the
9 cellar with wooly caps with slits for the eyes and mouth, that pertains
10 only to one part of them. The other part did not have caps.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So they were not masked.
13 A. Yes, but they were together.
14 Q. Why is it that you say this only now? In the statement you said
15 that people with wooly caps drawn over their heads and faces with slits
16 for their eyes and mouth, you mentioned that now.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you recognised them, they had these caps?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then you explained that some of them did not have caps.
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. How do you explain this now that some had caps and others didn't
23 when in the statement you said that everybody was wearing a cap?
24 A. I said that some did not wear caps. They introduced themselves as
25 being Seselj's men, and they did not wear any caps.
Page 26142
1 Q. So when they barged into the cellar they said --
2 A. Together. Together. Those who were masked, they took the men out
3 and killed them. And those who were not masked dealt with us, the women
4 and children.
5 Q. All right.
6 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. It may not matter very much how many
7 of them were masked and how many were not. But just let me get this
8 clear, please, Witness B-1058: Did these men say they were Seselj's men?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mrs. 1058, I'm going to quote your very own statement to you.
13 It's the end of paragraph 9: "As soon as the door opened, about ten
14 soldiers barged into the room."
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. "Wearing camouflage uniforms and wooly caps across their heads,
17 and they pointed long rifles at us. The masks had slits for the eyes and
18 the mouth, and some of them also wore black fingerless gloves, leather
19 gloves."
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So you describe this quite clearly, that masked people came in.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now you say that some people who walked in were masked and others
25 were not.
Page 26143
1 A. Behind them were those who were not masked. First the masked ones
2 got in and then the ones without masks. They were together. However, the
3 first ones to appear at the door were those with the masks.
4 Q. That means those you recognised here in these photographs. I'm
5 not talking about Arkan, he did not enter with him; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. They were behind them, and they were not wearing caps. They were
8 not masked, and those are the ones you recognised.
9 MR. AGHA: I apologise for butting in at this stage, but actually
10 these questions regarding Seselj's men and who said they were Seselj's and
11 who was participating in the cellar is covered actually in the addendum at
12 tab number 3, where, if I may kindly direct you to the second column --
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd go on. Yes. If you would just point
14 out the passage so that we can all see it and hear it.
15 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour. It's a passage which in the second
16 column on the English at the tab, and it says: "When we get towards the
17 SUP building, we were told to go into the library opposite the SUP
18 building. The soldiers who remained in the library were abusive to us and
19 cursed our mothers... They said that they were Seselj's men and that they
20 were the good guys whereas Arkan's men had done the killings. We all knew
21 that that was not true and that Seselj's men had fully participated in the
22 killings themselves."
23 So she's actually clearly stating that Seselj's and Arkan's men
24 participated in the killings, and she's made this just to make it
25 absolutely clear on this point because when she made her statement, she
Page 26144
1 clearly omitted to say all of the people who were there.
2 So she wanted to make this very point Mr. Milosevic is now making
3 clear to the Court.
4 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. All right, Mrs. 1058. These men you recognised are not among the
7 ten or so who barged into the cellar with wooly caps on their faces?
8 A. I don't know about that.
9 Q. Where did you see the ones you recognised? Could you explain that
10 to me, because they're not ones with the wooly caps who barged into your
11 cellar. Where did you see them?
12 A. I saw some in my sister's yard, sitting there. The next time I
13 saw him in a house, the best man of my sister, his house.
14 Q. When was this?
15 A. In 1992.
16 Q. How did this happen when you just dropped in after a week to ask
17 about these lists and you returned immediately?
18 A. My sister's place in Bijeljina. He was sitting there in the yard.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. In Janja. He was sitting in Janja in my sister's best man's
21 house.
22 Q. Oh, I understand now. The people you recognised.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. One you saw in Bijeljina sitting in the yard of your sister's
25 house and the other one you saw sitting in Janja.
Page 26145
1 A. Yes. No, no, no, no. He was in Bijeljina -- I mean in Zvornik.
2 Q. Where was he in Zvornik?
3 A. I can't remember where I saw him in Zvornik.
4 Q. All right. You saw one in Janja. You saw one in Bijeljina. At
5 the time when you saw this man in Janja and in Bijeljina, there were no
6 clashes. There was no fighting. You saw some people just sitting there;
7 is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What did they have to do with the men who barged into your cellar
10 with masks on their faces?
11 A. Because he also had a higher position.
12 Q. I don't understand what you're saying.
13 A. He was holding a higher position.
14 Q. Who was holding a higher position?
15 A. The one I recognised.
16 Q. Where did you see him, at which position? What is this office he
17 held?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Thank you very much. No further questions.
20 MR. AGHA: Again, Your Honour, I'd like just to make clear that
21 this point about the recognition of photographs which Mr. Milosevic is
22 making is again covered in the addendum in the final paragraph. And as
23 you'll appreciate, the witness first made her statement in 1996.
24 This is at tab 3. And at tab 3, it clearly states: "When I
25 originally made my statement in 1996, I could remember what some of the
Page 26146
1 people looked like who I saw enter the cellar, and I identified those I
2 was shown pictures of which were attached to my statement." Which indeed
3 they are. "However, due to the passage of time, I'm now only definitely
4 able to identify Arkan in some of the photos which are attached to my
5 statement."
6 So she's clearly made it clear that more than -- nearly ten years
7 has passed and her recollection isn't so good. She's trying to be honest
8 about this.
9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall be very
11 brief, by think that it should be clarified for you, this particular
12 matter that has to do with the recognition of these men and what they said
13 there.
14 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] The statement that you gave on the 28th and the
16 29th of September was, after all, quite soon after everything that
17 happened, and here in paragraph 12 - so this is page 3 of the B/C/S
18 version - you said: "Whether we got to the SUP building, we were ordered
19 to go into the library opposite the SUP building. The soldiers who
20 remained in the library were abusive to us and cursed our mothers and
21 Alija Izetbegovic."
22 And then you say here -- that's what you say in 1996. And later
23 on you corrected it a bit: "They said that they were Arkan's men and
24 that they were the good guys, whereas Seselj's men had done all the
25 killings."
Page 26147
1 So that's the way you had put it then, that they had said to you
2 that they were Arkan's men. That is paragraph 12 of your statement. This
3 is the first statement you gave, after all. Can you explain this to the
4 Judges, how come this difference?
5 A. I don't remember. Well, maybe I was so upset that I put it the
6 other way round.
7 Q. Thank you. Please, during those days about which you are
8 testifying now, between all these sides, Muslims, Serbs, Croats, were
9 there any conflicts at all?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Any -- did anybody get hurt or killed during these conflicts at
12 all then?
13 A. In Zvornik during those first days, nobody had any weapons and
14 there were no war operations. They were only all over the place killing
15 people, et cetera.
16 Q. Was there a conflict round some hill? That's my last question.
17 A. The hill Kula. There was some fighting there.
18 Q. So were there any victims there?
19 A. I don't know. This is a bit further away from where I am.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE KWON: Madam 1058, when answering the questions from the
23 accused, you spoke about the -- Mr. Grujic moving bodies from one
24 graveyard to another and then to another, a third graveyard. Could you
25 elaborate on that. From whom did you hear that?
Page 26148
1 A. People talked about this, people who were watching from Mali
2 Zvornik. This is on the other side of the Drina only. They were watching
3 through binoculars and the president was giving orders, this Grujic, this
4 president, he was giving orders for this kind of transfer of corpses.
5 People who watched this through binoculars from the other bank of the
6 Drina River.
7 JUDGE KWON: Did somebody hear Grujic ordering such acts?
8 A. He gave orders for everything. Everything that was going on in
9 Zvornik took place on his orders.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?
12 MR. AGHA: No re-examination, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1058, that concludes your evidence. Thank
14 you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free
15 to go.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, for having asked me
17 to come and testify, to say the truth.
18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Could you just wait while these blinds are
19 lowered.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment, Mr. Groome. There's something I want
22 to talk about.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, there are two matters of evidence I could
25 deal with. First, Mr. Van Baal, we will admit his transcript under Rule
Page 26149
1 92 bis, subject to cross-examination.
2 There is one other matter which doesn't concern your part of the
3 case but it would be convenient to deal with it since we were talking of
4 it on our last hearing, and that concerns the statement of Braddock Scott,
5 Captain Braddock Scott, and there was a discussion as to whether the Trial
6 Chamber may consider calling him. We have considered that and we shall
7 not be calling him.
8 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MAY: If you would pass that on, please. Yes.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Witness B-1610.
11 He is the subject of protective measures, so I'd ask that he be brought in
12 before we lift the blinds.
13 JUDGE KWON: The transcript should say the Trial Chamber would not
14 be calling.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1610
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution will be seeking to
25 tender one binder containing 12 tabs of exhibits. Could I ask that a
Page 26150
1 number be assigned at this stage.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 532.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask we go into private session
4 for a preliminary matter.
5 [Private session]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 26151
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [Open session]
12 Examined by Mr. Groome:
13 Q. Sir, your testimony has been received by the Chamber in written
14 form. I only have one question for you in addition to that.
15 MR. GROOME: I would ask that the witness be shown Exhibit 532,
16 tab 12. It is a photograph.
17 Q. And, sir, I ask you to take a look at this photograph and ask you:
18 Do you recognise the person in that photograph?
19 A. Yes, I do recognise him; it is Veljko Milankovic.
20 MR. GROOME: And Ms. Wee reminds me that I have forgotten
21 something. Could I ask that the witness be shown tab 1 of the same
22 exhibit, or a sheet. I'm sorry, we're a little bit disorganised this
23 morning. Can I ask that the witness be shown a sheet, and I will ask that
24 it be included as tab 13 of Exhibit 532.
25 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at that sheet of paper. Is that
Page 26152
1 your name on the top of that piece of paper?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.
4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, you can begin your
5 cross-examination, but we'll break off fairly soon because it will be time
6 for the adjournment, but you can certainly ask a few questions first.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1610, in paragraph 4 of your statement, which
10 you gave on the 22nd of October, 2001, you say that you had never been a
11 member of any political party; is that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. And you go on to say that even now you're not interested in
14 politics; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. However, that's not true. You did become a member of the SDA
17 party, and you said previously -- and I should like to draw your attention
18 to that, Mr. May, that we took this formulation -- to the effect that you
19 became a member of the SDA party during your stay in Germany.
20 A. That's not true. That's not correct.
21 Q. You can check it out and verify whether this was what was stated
22 previously. I can give you a detailed quote or, rather, the place you can
23 find it, but I can't give it in open session due to the restrictions
24 imposed.
25 So what you said on a previous occasion about your membership in
Page 26153
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 26154
1 the SDA party in Germany in 1993 you actually knew when you made your
2 statement in 2001. So why didn't you stipulate that then?
3 A. That's not true. I'm not a member of the SDA party.
4 Q. So that means you stated that erroneously in a previous
5 statement.
6 A. I didn't say it. I'm not a member of the SDA party, or any other
7 party, for that matter.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you have all this written
9 down and recorded, so I don't want to go back to that issue.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Now, you go on to say the following, and if you want me to tell
12 you the lines and pages, I can do so.
13 JUDGE MAY: Don't give the page numbers in open session. We can
14 deal with that, if we need to, in private session. Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. In paragraph 8, you say that in 1991, a certain man whom you say
18 was from Knin, at a rally that was held of the SDS party in Prnjavor,
19 addressed the Serbs that had gathered there and said that they should sell
20 their last cow and buy weapons for themselves. Is that what you said?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You, of course, did not attend that SDS rally, I assume.
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. Well, how come you can claim that that is what this man said,
25 actually said?
Page 26155
1 A. I claim that on the basis of what my neighbours told me who were
2 passing by at the time.
3 Q. So there was an SDS rally, and some of your neighbours happened to
4 be passing by and heard the man say that and then told you who the man was
5 and what he said, and that is the basis you're testifying on; is that it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Now, you go on to say that in the Prnjavor
8 municipality, the first checkpoints appeared in 1991. Isn't that right?
9 You say that in paragraph 9 of your statement.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When was that in 1991 more exactly?
12 A. I don't know the exact date because I was in the Territorial
13 Defence myself, so I can't give you an exact date. I don't know.
14 Q. Well, was it the beginning, the middle, or the end of the year?
15 Can you tell us roughly? I know you can't tell us the exact date but you
16 must have a rough idea of when it was during that year because you are
17 testifying about it.
18 A. Well, it might have been sometime towards the end of 1991.
19 Q. I see. The end of 1991. Right. And you also say in that same
20 paragraph that most of those checkpoints were located next to a place
21 inhabited by Muslims. Is that what you said?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you mean to say that those checkpoints were erected in order to
24 control the Muslims and not in order to provide security on the territory
25 of the whole municipality? Is that what you're saying?
Page 26156
1 A. Because of the Muslims. And if you were Muslim, you had to have a
2 permit to be able to pass through the checkpoint, a pass.
3 Q. Well, as far as my information tells me, everybody had to have a
4 pass to go through the checkpoints, not only the Muslims.
5 A. Yes, that is true, except for the fact that the Muslims were
6 checked more strictly.
7 Q. I see. Now, these checkpoints, were they on the main road, the
8 main road running from Prnjavor towards Banja Luka?
9 A. Yes, that's right. They were also in Klasnice. There were
10 checkpoints there too.
11 Q. All right. If they were on the main read from Prnjavor to Banja
12 Luka, the main Prnjavor-Banja Luka road, that means that they were not
13 erected and not located just beside Muslim villages. They were simply put
14 up on the main road at all points where byroads connected with the main
15 road. That's right, isn't it?
16 A. No. There was the village of Lisnja, that's where there was a
17 checkpoint, towards Mravice. Right beside our village, actually.
18 Q. Well, all right. But all those roads -- and you have here in tab
19 2 a map of the Prnjavor municipality on which you can see that there are
20 far more Serb villages than Prnjavor itself. You have the ethnic
21 structure of Prnjavor there, and you can see that there were several times
22 more Serb inhabitants there and Serb villages than there were Muslim
23 villages and Muslim inhabitants and so on. Isn't that right, Mr. 1610?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. And then I'm sure you're -- you have in mind something that has
Page 26157
1 been handed to me under the form of tab 3, and it says the Socialist
2 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as the header, Ministry of the Interior,
3 Security Services Centre Banja Luka. That's what the document says. And
4 it is sent to the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the Assembly, to
5 the government, to the Ministry of the Interior, and also to the Banja
6 Luka Corps of the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army. The date is the 23rd
7 of September, 1991, and the document was signed by Stojan Zupljanin, chief
8 of the security centre in Banja Luka. And the information is being sent
9 reporting to the MUP corps, government Assembly, Presidency, and so on,
10 and it states: "We are sending you information about -- on the activities
11 of armed groups on the territory covered by the Banja Luka security
12 services centre. Please find enclosed a report on that."
13 And then it says that various forms of illegal activity are on the
14 rise, are escalating, ever more numerous armed groups wearing uniforms and
15 civilian clothing alike. And then it goes on to talk about ever
16 increasing gunfire in public places, the mistreatment and abuse of
17 citizens, the holdup and seizure of freight and passenger vehicles,
18 shooting on active and reserve police officers, and it speaks about the
19 general concern that this could escalate further, et cetera.
20 So now, Mr. 1610, were these checkpoints erected in order to
21 provide security, and does that follow on from this piece of information
22 and document and what it contains, or are you saying that it was the
23 Muslims who were controlled through these checkpoints?
24 A. If there was abuse and mistreatment by the Serbs, then that --
25 then it was -- that Serbs could mistreat and abuse Serbs, that wasn't
Page 26158
1 possible. They must have done it to the Croats and Muslims.
2 Q. Now, judging by this chief of centre, Stojan Zupljanin, I would
3 say that he was a Serb, especially as his first name is Stojan. Isn't
4 that right?
5 A. All I can say is what happened in our parts.
6 Q. I'm asking you whether he is a Serb. So is he complaining, as far
7 up as the Presidency --
8 JUDGE MAY: The witness may not know this gentleman. It would be
9 doubtful if he does. But I think this would be a suitable moment to
10 adjourn.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, can I address the Chamber briefly in
12 private session?
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
14 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry. Could I address the Chamber briefly in
15 private session?
16 JUDGE MAY: We will go into private session. Private session,
17 please.
18 [Private session]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 26159
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 26160
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Page 26160 – redacted – private session
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 26161
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, we're in open session.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. 1610, in paragraph 9 of your statement, you say that most of
24 the men at these checkpoints belonged to the Territorial Defence, that
25 there were some military policemen as well; is that right?
Page 26162
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You also say that you know that a captain, a captain from the
3 Banja Luka region, was in charge of the whole region and that he issued
4 the order to erect those checkpoints. Is that right? Is that what you
5 said?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, tell me, please, were you too a member of the Territorial
8 Defence at that time?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And many other Muslims were also members of the Territorial
11 Defence in those days, weren't they?
12 A. Yes. There were also five Serbs in my village.
13 Q. As far as I can see, you were a member of a TO unit which
14 consisted of 48 Muslims and five Serbs; is that right?
15 A. No. The total was 48.
16 Q. Of which five were Serbs; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Very well. The call to join the TO in 1991 was received from the
19 military department in Prnjavor; isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And your call-up paper, as you state in paragraph 10, was signed
22 by a certain Meho Jasarevic; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was he a Muslim too?
25 A. Yes.
Page 26163
1 Q. And like all reservists in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, you
2 had a military uniform at home, didn't you?
3 A. I didn't have it at home, but we were given a uniform.
4 Q. And what was the uniform like, Mr. 1610?
5 A. Olive-grey green.
6 Q. The customary military uniform, wasn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Identical to those worn by JNA; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it true that at the time, from the TO warehouse, you were
11 issued two machine-guns, some 50 M-48 rifles with 30 bullets each, and 150
12 bullets for the machine-guns?
13 A. We were issued two machine-guns, M-48 rifles, and six or seven
14 were not in working order.
15 Q. But all this was happening in 1991, wasn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Very well. Now, tell me, in those days carrying out those duties
18 in the TO, were you authorised to take into custody people who did not
19 have licenses and were carrying weapons to search vehicles and patrol the
20 village and its environs?
21 A. Yes. And there were two policemen with us who were also
22 reservists.
23 Q. And is it true that the TO unit, that is the one you were in as
24 well, had been formed by that same captain whose name is Nedjo, as you
25 state here, and who distributed the weapons to you?
Page 26164
1 A. This came from the military department. The instructions were to
2 maintain the law and order in our village so as to avoid any problems
3 arising.
4 Q. You yourself say there were 48 of you, of whom five were Serbs.
5 How then can you claim that those checkpoints were erected to check
6 Muslims when you yourself, as a Muslim and the other Muslims from your
7 village, were also armed? In a large majority of cases you patrolled the
8 village, searched people and vehicles as they went by.
9 A. Not the surroundings of the village. Our duties were limited to
10 the village and the side roads.
11 Q. But the roads around the village. Your village is not the main
12 road, is it?
13 A. Yes. Our village is -- lies close to the main road.
14 Q. So you were patrolling that area, searching and checking the
15 population and passengers; is that right?
16 A. Yes. You would notice a person driving something. We would check
17 out whether he had any weapons. If he did, we would confiscate it and so
18 on.
19 Q. So my question is: Why are you claiming that those checkpoints
20 were erected to check Muslims?
21 A. We had quite a lot of ammunition should there be any attacks, and
22 the rifles were in order. So of course it was against Muslims. Others,
23 for instance, in Potocani they had mortars, hand grenades.
24 Q. But there were 48 of you, of whom only five were Serbs, and yet
25 you say that the checkpoints were erected against the Muslims. So you --
Page 26165
1 there were 43 of you Muslims were organising checkpoints against Muslims,
2 and you're claiming they were made there against the Muslims.
3 A. Well, of course they were against the Muslims, because first of
4 all, the Muslims were in the minority there. And I am claiming that you
5 had to have a special permit. You had to pay for it to be able to go
6 outside of Prnjavor. So we couldn't move around anywhere.
7 Q. I'm not discussing the measures that apply to the population and
8 the circumstances described by the chief of the security centre in his
9 letter to the Presidency and other bodies. What I'm saying is that you in
10 your unit had a majority, a large majority of Muslim members. Is that
11 right or not?
12 A. Yes, it is right that this was almost a purely Muslim village, the
13 village of Lisnja.
14 Q. But you were armed, and you were part of the TO.
15 A. Yes, we did have weapons.
16 Q. You certainly remember that in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina
17 in those days, the Yugoslav People's Army was still the only legal armed
18 force, and Bosnia-Herzegovina was still part of the SFRY, wasn't it?
19 A. Yes. I remember that very well. And the pull-out from Croatia
20 and the five-cornered star that was replaced with the four S's.
21 Q. I'm not talking about the four letters. I'm just saying that the
22 JNA was the only legal armed formation in those areas at that time. Is
23 that right or not?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. In paragraph 3 -- 13, you say that the first problem started in
Page 26166
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 26167
1 March 1992 when you heard that at a distance of some 400 metres from your
2 village automatic fire was being opened. Is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Before that there were no problems at all?
5 A. Very minor ones. Nothing really dangerous.
6 Q. And then when you heard that, you were patrolling as a TO unit.
7 You were armed, and you had all the powers that we referred to to stop
8 people, to check them out, to maintain public law and order; is that
9 right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Why didn't you intervene or at least try to find out who had
12 opened fire?
13 A. How dared we go there? We had weapons, but we couldn't do
14 anything with it. We would -- to get killed up there from Pavlovo Brdo
15 from the Pavlo hill.
16 Q. So you didn't intervene?
17 A. We didn't dare.
18 Q. And did you inform anyone?
19 A. Yes. We informed Captain Nedjo.
20 Q. Was he in your village?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So when he came to visit your village, you informed him?
23 A. Captain Nedjo would come on a daily basis to see us. He would
24 come in the morning, shall we say, to inquire what had happened. We would
25 report to him.
Page 26168
1 Q. Does that mean that you reported to him in writing?
2 A. This report was compiled by Nijaz. He was also a captain or
3 something like that. He was an officer, and he would compile the report.
4 Q. So this Nijaz drafted a written report; is that right?
5 A. We kept record of events in a notebook as a patrol. Now, whether
6 he was given this in writing, I couldn't tell you, but the two of them
7 regularly met.
8 Q. Do you have any of those written reports?
9 A. No. I don't have anything.
10 Q. Very well. As I can see from your statement, you and the other
11 Muslims from your village were armed with weapons of the Territorial
12 Defence; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know of a single case that the Muslims without any cause
15 opened fire? Did you report about that at all?
16 A. Well, first of all, even if people tried to do that, we would
17 prevent it from happening.
18 Q. All right. You claim in paragraph 12 in your statement that, "On
19 one occasion when a drunken Muslim was shooting in the air, we had to take
20 his weapon away," and you reported about that; is that right?
21 A. Yes, that's right. We took his weapon away and we handed it over
22 to Captain Nedjo.
23 Q. You say that at that time you saw truckloads of reservists passing
24 down the road through the village of Poraci, which belonged to Lisnja; is
25 that right?
Page 26169
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, you say that reservists who were transported in these trucks
3 opened fire at the houses in your village. Is that your statement?
4 A. Yes. The village of Poraci.
5 Q. So they were shooting at random there.
6 A. Yes, in passing. There is evidence of that which is quite
7 visible. On the houses there are still scars, so to speak, but of course
8 the windowpanes have been replaced.
9 Q. Tell me, you say that there was frequent random shooting, as you
10 had put it, but were any villagers killed or injured due to that?
11 A. Not at that time.
12 Q. So they were only shooting the way this man whose rifle you had
13 taken away was shooting; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. Were their weapons taken away too, the weapons they
16 used to shoot around, as you had taken away the weapon of the person who
17 had been shooting in the air?
18 A. Who'd take their weapons away, the reservists weapons. We did
19 report that to Captain Nedjo too. However, the same thing was repeated
20 time and again, this very same thing.
21 Q. But nobody got killed or injured.
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. In the month of April, 1992, the captain asked you to
24 return to machine-guns that you were issued with in 1991 as members of the
25 TO; is that right?
Page 26170
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And as far as I can see in your statement, that's when you stopped
3 wearing a uniform, the uniform you had as a reservist; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But these rifles, they didn't ask you for them?
6 A. No. They didn't ask for the machine-gun ammunition either.
7 Q. So you kept the guns and the ammunition?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And now in paragraph 17, you say that in the beginning of May
10 1992, a written order came to the local commune, that is to say to your
11 village. A written order, you say. This order indicated that all persons
12 with hunting rifles had to surrender them; is that right?
13 A. Yes, that is right.
14 Q. Tell me, did this order arrive from the police or from the
15 military authorities?
16 A. It arrived from the police authorities.
17 Q. So it was a police order; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The army which was coming to the end of its tenure in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina had nothing to do with this order; is that right?
21 A. I think that's right.
22 Q. Now you say that soon after that, your village was surrounded by
23 the police and by members of the unit called the Wolves from Vucjak; is
24 that right? Is that what you're saying?
25 A. Yes.
Page 26171
1 Q. When did this happen?
2 A. I cannot give you the dates. I already mentioned in my first
3 statement that I cannot give any dates, but we were supposed to hand over
4 these hunting weapons, and two or three -- we had two or three days to do
5 that, and I had my brother-in-law's weapon and I handed it in.
6 Q. All right. So the police unit was there and the unit belonging to
7 the Wolves from Vucjak. So again there were no members of the JNA there;
8 is that right?
9 A. No, I didn't see any then.
10 Q. When did you first hear of this unit called the Wolves from
11 Vucjak?
12 A. Sometime in 1991. That's when I heard of them. But at that time
13 I wasn't really very much interested in that, and I did not move about
14 very much.
15 Q. Had you ever heard of this certain Veljko Milankovic, the
16 commander of that unit before that?
17 A. No, I did not know him personally. I did not hear of them.
18 Q. Did you didn't hear of him?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And who was in this unit the Wolves from Vucjak? Was that your
21 local population from there?
22 A. It wasn't our local population there. There wasn't anyone from
23 Lisnja or from the Muslim villages. I heard of this one man, Jansa, when
24 all this happened in Lisnja. He was a Slovenian.
25 Q. And what about the rest? Where were they from?
Page 26172
1 A. I heard that they were from Ilova and places like that.
2 Neighbours, from neighbouring villages.
3 Q. Oh, from neighbouring villages.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you say that then when they surrounded you, you were told that
6 you had to hand over all weapons; is that right?
7 A. At that time, it was hunting weapons that had to be handed in.
8 Q. So hunting guns had to be handed over by all weapons, whereas
9 these members of the TO, including yourself, all still had normal TO
10 weapons, didn't you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So when this request was made to hand over these weapons, was --
13 did it also refer to your weapons, the ones that you had as the TO when
14 you were surrounded?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now let me not use this word "operation," but when this took
17 place, when the village was surrounded, et cetera, was anybody killed?
18 A. No.
19 Q. All right. In paragraph 18, you say at that time about 100 sniper
20 rifles were surrendered as well as a very large number of hunting rifles.
21 Is that right? Is that the figure that you're referring to?
22 A. Yes. Because it was a big village and very rich. People were
23 abroad for the most part and, of course, there were quite a few hunters
24 there.
25 Q. So over 100 sniper rifles and a very large number of hunting
Page 26173
1 rifles in your village, and all of that because they were hunters?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. In paragraph 19, you claim that you, together with
4 about 25 men from your village, went to the Prnjavor police station to
5 turn in weapons and that you saw three trucks full of soldiers from Knin
6 there. That's what you said. They were called Knindzas; is that right?
7 A. First of all, it's not Prijedor, it's Prnjavor. And secondly, it
8 is true that I did go there and that I saw these men from Knin.
9 Q. All right. You went to Prnjavor, not Prijedor. And you saw three
10 trucks full of soldiers?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were they moving about or were they sitting in these trucks?
13 A. They were by the police station. They were outside. Some were
14 also on the truck and some were standing by the truck.
15 Q. You say that they were swearing at you, asking why you were
16 surrendering weapons. Is that what they asked you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I find it incredible that they asked you that.
19 A. It's not that they asked this directly. They were just saying,
20 "Why did you hand over your weapons?" They said that it was a pity that
21 we handed them over, that they should kill us.
22 Q. Oh, so that's why they asked you. All right. As far as I
23 understand this, they were reprimanding you for having handed over your
24 weapons.
25 So you invented this, Mr. 1610.
Page 26174
1 A. This is not correct.
2 Q. All right. In the same paragraph, number 19, you say quite
3 literally: "They wore camouflage uniforms. I noticed that they had Red
4 Berets. On their sleeves they had some kind of patch. As far as I can
5 remember, the patch read something like SAO Krajina. I did not know what
6 this meant." Is that what you stated?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So you noticed, as far as you could remember, as you put it
9 yourself, that there was something like "SAO Krajina" written on these
10 patches.
11 A. Yes, because we did not dare look at them directly. We were
12 afraid. Of course they were saying all sorts of things to us, and I
13 managed to catch a glimpse of these yellow letters that said "SAO
14 Krajina."
15 Q. Are you sure that that's what it said because you say here as if
16 it said -- so you did see some things and you didn't see other things.
17 What did you actually see?
18 A. I saw that "SAO Krajina" was written there.
19 Q. You saw that it was written there. And how come you know that
20 they were from Knin? Did somebody tell you that or is this your
21 assumption? Is that what you assumed then?
22 A. I didn't assume it. As we were entering the police station
23 bringing in our weapons, there were two young men there from Knin, and
24 they were also swearing at us, cursing our Muslim mothers when we were
25 entering this one room where weapons were supposed to be handed over. I
Page 26175
1 [redacted].
2 Q. I'm just asking you how come you knew that they were from Knin.
3 Did they say that?
4 A. When they were saying that -- I mean, these two men were sort of
5 wounded a bit, injured. So that is how they were registered there.
6 That's what I heard.
7 Q. Where did they register them?
8 A. At the police station in Prnjavor.
9 Q. And that's where you heard that they were from Knin?
10 A. Yes, as I was entering this place.
11 Q. All right. And you received certificates for each and every
12 weapon that you handed over; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Already in paragraph 21, you say that three or four days later,
15 you received information from the SDA representative that any hidden
16 weapons had to be handed over and that the military would come to collect
17 them.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you say "the military," what does that mean? You are talking
20 about the army of Republika Srpska; right?
21 A. For as long as we wore the five-pointed star, we always thought
22 that it was the army, but the army was there.
23 Q. However, these two groups of Muslims, there were about 30 of them,
24 they did not return any weapons; right?
25 A. No, it wasn't that they didn't return any weapons. They came and
Page 26176
1 they collected these weapons without any ammunition, without any clips,
2 nothing.
3 Q. All right. As far as I can see here, at one point in time they
4 disarmed the members of the army of Republika Srpska and they seized the
5 weapons that had already been surrendered, and they went to the hill
6 called Vinogradije from there; is that right?
7 A. Well, Captain Nedjo also wore a five-pointed star, and it was only
8 natural; we still thought it was the Yugoslav army. And it is true they
9 went towards Vinogradije.
10 Q. All right. So these two groups of Muslims, they disarmed their
11 weapons and they went with their weapons to Vinogradije; is that right?
12 A. It's not that they had any big weapons or something. They took
13 these weapons that the people had handed over. They took that and went to
14 Vinogradije.
15 Q. How many of them were there?
16 A. Say about 30 in two groups. I didn't really count them.
17 Q. They were all Muslims? Is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And now you say that the attack on the village of Lisnja started
20 this same day around 1600 hours. However, previously, there was an
21 announcement by megaphone stating that all inhabitants had to leave the
22 village and gather at the sawmill, as you had put it; is that right?
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. And it was said then that those who did not go to the sawmill
25 would be considered enemies and therefore would be attacked; is that
Page 26177
1 right? Is that what was said specifically?
2 A. Yes, that's what was said.
3 Q. Was this a warning? These two groups of Muslims that had
4 collected the weapons and went to the hill called Vinogradije, was this a
5 warning to the civilian population to seek shelter in case there was a
6 conflict?
7 A. I think so.
8 Q. All right. You say that in the area by the sawmill there were
9 also some JNA officers in olive-green/grey uniforms that you did not know,
10 and this Slovenian Jansa, as you had put it, who still works in the MUP in
11 Prnjavor nowadays. Is that what you stated?
12 A. When I made this statement, he worked there then. I don't know
13 about now, but at that time he did.
14 Q. All right. It doesn't matter that he's a Slovenian. He is a
15 citizen from that area, because you say that he worked as a policeman in
16 Prnjavor.
17 A. He did not work as a policeman before the war
18 Q. Was he in this unit called Wolves from Vucjak?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So he was not a member of the army of Republika Srpska; is that
21 right? Was that a paramilitary formation or what was this unit, the
22 Wolves from Vucjak?
23 A. It was sort of a paramilitary formation, but they worked in
24 concert, in agreement with the JNA.
25 Q. When did the attack on Lisnja take place, on which date?
Page 26178
1 A. I've already said that I do not know exact dates. Perhaps you can
2 ask me something else and I'll answer your questions, but I cannot give
3 you exact dates. I don't know.
4 Q. You talk about the Wolves from Vucjak and so on and so forth. Is
5 it correct that you did not see any JNA officers at all but only members
6 of that particular formation?
7 A. Yes, I did see an officer. I saw one.
8 Q. You wore the same type of uniform?
9 A. I didn't have a uniform at that time.
10 Q. Well, not then, but before that you did, you had the same type of
11 uniform. That's right, isn't it?
12 A. It was the same colour, yes.
13 Q. Very well. Let me just take a look at something you said in your
14 statement.
15 You say in paragraph 25 that there was a Slovene there by the name
16 of Jansa and he was Milankovic's deputy. I recently heard that he was
17 working in the MUP in Prnjavor. I heard Milankovic asking the JNA
18 officers if they would bring a multiple rocket launcher to the hill called
19 Pavlovo Brdo.
20 Q. Now, tell me, a moment ago you said you'd never heard of
21 Milankovic, and now you keep referring to him as being the commander of
22 the Wolves from Vucjak. So let me ask you this. When did you hear about
23 the unit and what did you know about it?
24 A. Immediately before the attack on Lisnja took place, a cousin of
25 mine said, "Milankovic is here." I didn't know him personally, of course,
Page 26179
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 26180
1 but I heard Jansa talking - I was 10 metres away - Jansa talking to the
2 officers and asking them to bring in a multiple rocket launcher.
3 Q. Now, let's look at this: You said that you made a previous
4 statement, and I'm quoting. You -- "He addressed the officer. I don't
5 know who he was." That's what you say quite clearly. "I do not know who
6 he was. I do not know his name either. But at any rate, he was an
7 officer." Is that the statement you made?
8 A. Yes, that's what I said.
9 Q. And then you were asked on this previous occasion the following
10 question, whether you thought that it was an officer belonging to the army
11 of Republika Srpska, and your answer was yes. Isn't that right, Mr. 1610?
12 A. I did give that answer, because at that time I considered that it
13 was all the Serbian army, as it was indeed.
14 Q. So on that occasion, you said that this person was an officer of
15 the army of Republika Srpska. Tell me now this: Are you changing about
16 these officers, changing them around depending on the purpose you're
17 giving your statement for? On the one hand, you speak about the JNA, the
18 Yugoslav People's Army. On this occasion, when directly asked whether it
19 was an officer of the army of Republika Srpska, you said yes. Before
20 that, you say you don't know who he was, you don't know his name, but he
21 was an officer. Then you were asked whether he was an officer of the army
22 of Republika Srpska, and your answer was yes.
23 A. Yes, that is what I said. I'm not saying I didn't.
24 Q. Yes, but then you spoke of him as being a JNA officer as well.
25 A. I did say that because when all this was happening to us in Lisnja
Page 26181
1 on that particular day, it was the Serb army, as far as I was concerned,
2 so that's what I said. But he was wearing a JNA uniform and he had the
3 five-pointed star.
4 Q. The same one that you had had up until then?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. All right. And in paragraph 27, you mention a man -- a name Tito
7 Potok. Tell me, who was that man; a Slovene, a Croat, a Serb? Who was
8 he, this Tito Potok?
9 A. Tito Potok was a Serb.
10 Q. And then you say that he asked you to start up the engines of a
11 vehicle and other things. What's that got to do with these events? I'm
12 not quite clear on what you're referring to, a hotwire.
13 A. When we reached the mill, sawmill, he asked us to ignite the
14 engine, and I didn't know how to do that using a hotwire. And then later
15 on I said I'd go and find somebody who would be able to start up the
16 engine that way. I wasn't able to find anyone, so I went to hide among
17 the women and children.
18 Q. All right. So you fled. You escaped and hid with the -- among
19 the women and children. But what has this got to do with starting up an
20 engine with these hot wires? What's that got to the do with the events
21 we're discussing? I'm not clear on that. Why do you bring that up at all
22 in the context of these events?
23 A. Well, they were going to take the car, seize it, because the car
24 belonged to a man called Adel Pekic [phoen].
25 Q. So you didn't say that in your statement. All you said was that
Page 26182
1 you were asked to start up the engine using a hot wire, and straight away
2 you fled and hid among the women and children.
3 A. Well, not straight away, several minutes later.
4 Q. All right. Several minutes later. And in the meantime the
5 Muslims who didn't want to hand over their weapons, did appear and
6 surrendered their weapons? Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tell me now, did anybody beat them, mistreat them, abuse them in
9 any way once they did appear, once they appeared?
10 A. Well, when they were coming down from the Lisnja road, down the
11 Lisnja road, two men were abused. They were hit with rifle butts. And
12 then about 30 of them were taken off in trucks to Prnjavor.
13 Q. Well, why didn't you say that in your statement, that they were
14 mistreated and beaten, these people? Why didn't you say that? Because it
15 would appear from this statement that nobody beat or mistreated anybody.
16 A. Well, I said that they were beaten.
17 Q. Now, according to you, once they had surrendered their weapons,
18 this man Milankovic gave orders that the village be shelled. Is that what
19 you're claiming?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Well, does that mean then that there was an armed unit that still
22 remained in the village?
23 A. No. There was no unit remaining in the village. Only the people
24 working in the fields and didn't know what was happening remained, because
25 they were far away from their villages at that time. So they might have
Page 26183
1 stayed on, and the people who were sick and elderly.
2 Q. Then you go on to say that the wolves from Vucjak stormed the
3 village and set fire to 76 houses. Is that what you claim?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Then you go on to say that this man who asked you to
6 start the engine of that car bragged and said that he had killed three men
7 whom you yourself buried later on in the village of Konjuhovci. So what
8 is the truth? What is correct here?
9 A. What is correct is that he told us in the morning that he had
10 indeed killed three men and that he said he would kill some more people
11 too.
12 Q. And did you bury anybody yourself?
13 A. I did dig graves, and then a young Serb guy told us to get lost,
14 that it would be better if we got lost.
15 Q. So you didn't actually bury anybody yourself.
16 A. I dug the grave and then I left.
17 Q. Did you see a single man who had actually been killed there?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. So who was that man? Go on, tell me what person you saw.
20 A. There was Bajis.
21 Q. So you saw this one man who had been killed.
22 A. I saw three corpses being brought in in the car.
23 Q. What were these people's names?
24 A. There was Avdija and Bajis Halilic [as interpreted], and this
25 young person of 17, young man of 17.
Page 26184
1 Q. Do you know how they were killed, how they lost their lives? Do
2 you know anything about that?
3 A. No, I don't know anything about that, but I do know that they were
4 killed, and I do know that there was a cross drawn on their bodies.
5 Q. Tell me, were they killed during the fighting that took place
6 there or were they executed by someone? Which is it?
7 A. Well, there wasn't any fighting going on there. Not a single
8 bullet was fired. There was no fighting, no combat.
9 Q. And where did these people actually come from?
10 A. They were from Porac.
11 Q. So this village that you're mentioning now, was there any fighting
12 there, any clash of any kind or not?
13 A. No, there wasn't a clash of any kind.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So there was no fighting, no conflict in your locality; is that
17 right?
18 A. As far as my village is concerned, nobody shot a single bullet.
19 Q. I'm not talking about your village of Lisnja, I'm talking about
20 the area itself, the whole area. Was there any fighting there? How did
21 these men come to be killed?
22 A. I don't know how they were killed. All I do know is that their
23 bodies were found and that they had to be buried in the morning.
24 Q. All right. So you don't know how they were in fact killed.
25 Right. Now, after this attack, you were allegedly shut up in a footwear
Page 26185
1 factory for 35 days, in a shoe factory. That's what you claim.
2 A. Forty-five days in actual fact.
3 Q. All right, 45 days. And where is that shoe factory?
4 A. In Prnjavor
5 Q. And who held you prisoner there?
6 A. There was the reserve police force.
7 Q. I see, the reserve police force from Prnjavor. Did they beat you,
8 did they mistreat you in any way while you were being held there?
9 A. Well, yes. The weekends were best, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
10 That's when they would attack us, beat us when they would come back from
11 their shifts, but they didn't beat me because I fled. There were 387 of
12 us in total.
13 Q. But you say nobody beat you personally?
14 A. Not me personally.
15 Q. Was anybody killed?
16 A. Alija Dzinic was there. He was all beaten up. His head was
17 beaten in.
18 Q. So of those 300 of you -- how many did you say?
19 A. Three hundred and eighty-seven I said.
20 Q. Right, 387. Was anybody killed?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, in paragraph 44, you state something that is very
23 interesting, and I'm quoting you. "During that night when we were all
24 rallied up to go to the sawmill, I heard that the soldiers had taken away
25 three women to Suad Zukancic's house and that they raped her. Is that
Page 26186
1 what you said, that you heard about that?
2 A. I said -- actually, the story that was going around was that they
3 were raped. What it says in the statement is that that was not true, that
4 she did this of her own will.
5 Q. But I will read the following sentence. "I believe that -- my
6 opinion is that the women were not raped. They were having sex with the
7 soldiers for money, and it's only when people figured out what they were
8 doing that they stated that they had been raped." Is that right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Well, do you know of any similar cases, others? That is to say,
11 that they had sex for money and then later on said they had been raped.
12 A. Yes, that's what I heard.
13 Q. All right. Fine. Now, in paragraph 45, you go on to say that you
14 did not know Veljko Milankovic before the war but that others told you who
15 the man was.
16 A. Yes. On the day the attack on Lisnja took place.
17 Q. All right. Now, this next bit does not relate to the fact that
18 you had any knowledge of him having the reputation of a criminal and
19 having been prosecuted and things like that. Did you know anything about
20 that or not?
21 A. No, I didn't know anything about that, but I did hear about it
22 later on, that he was found guilty for some offences. Perhaps -- I heard
23 about that perhaps a year later.
24 Q. Yes, but you heard about it before you made this statement; is
25 that correct?
Page 26187
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Well, why, then, didn't you mention that reputation of his?
3 A. Well, I didn't know that it was necessary for me to do so, whether
4 I should speak about that or not.
5 Q. Well, you claim that you didn't know who he was, and yet before
6 you made your statement you learnt that he was in fact a criminal, but you
7 didn't consider it necessary to say that in your statement; is that it?
8 A. Yes, that's it.
9 Q. But in paragraph 47, you also claim and state that you knew that
10 this same man, Milankovic, after the public security station in Prnjavor
11 had been taken over, was arrested and taken to Banja Luka; is that right?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. So who arrested him?
14 A. The specials from Sarajevo, special forces from Sarajevo arrested
15 him.
16 Q. So the police actually arrested him, the regular police; is that
17 right?
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. And the others that took part in this, what happened to them? Did
20 the authorities react to the unlawful conduct of any of these men from the
21 paramilitary formation except for him, for the boss himself? If they
22 arrested their boss and chief, I assume that they should have arrested the
23 others too. What happened to the others? What do you know about that?
24 A. Well, nothing was heard later on until he was released, and I
25 didn't know about this paramilitary unit.
Page 26188
1 Q. And where were you yourself after that? Where did you go to
2 afterwards?
3 A. I was in the village of Lisnja. This was before the events that
4 happened came to pass.
5 Q. All right. And when you were released, how long were you there
6 you said? Forty --
7 A. Forty-five days.
8 Q. All right. So you were there incarcerated for 45 days. Where
9 were you later, afterwards?
10 A. We were released later on to Lisnja and I had a work obligation to
11 perform.
12 Q. So all of you were released after that and went on with your lives
13 normally in your village; is that right?
14 A. Yes, later on, but not all of us. Some of us stayed behind.
15 Others were transferred to Tunjica in Banja Luka. Because my uncle was
16 there and he died a year later. And we had a work obligation to perform
17 later on. That we were free, we were not free; they would come in in the
18 evenings to mistreat us, abuse us.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, sometimes I slept at home.
21 Sometimes I slept in my shed. It was difficult to know where to sleep or
22 when they would turn up.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Well, did they take anyone away from your village or kill anybody?
25 A. Well, somebody from the neighbouring village came by, a man named
Page 26189
1 Serbes, asking for money, cars. He would seize cars. And another
2 formation would turn up and they confiscated our tractors and agricultural
3 machinery.
4 Q. So this man came and asked you for money, did he, and he stole
5 vehicles? He was a criminal, then, wasn't he?
6 A. Well, he was in the army. Now, who he actually was, I can't say,
7 whether he was a criminal or not, but he was there.
8 Q. Did you know him?
9 A. I didn't know him myself personally, but it's in the neighbouring
10 village. So a neighbour of mine told me that that's that man. And I have
11 some land there myself, but I didn't see him myself.
12 Q. What was his name?
13 A. Serbes was what they called him.
14 Q. Serbes. What kind of a name is that?
15 A. Now, whether that was his nickname or not I don't know, but that's
16 what they called him.
17 Q. So apart from this criminal who came, did anybody else come to
18 mistreat the inhabitants of the village?
19 A. Well, yes, they did. For example, there was all sorts of units
20 and formations coming by, and we'd always have to try and escape and flee.
21 We had no electricity, nothing else, and as soon as it grew dark, you
22 would try and seek shelter somewhere and hide.
23 Q. All right. But throughout that time were any of the inhabitants
24 of the village killed?
25 A. Not at that time, but later on, yes, they were.
Page 26190
1 Q. When did -- was somebody killed later on?
2 A. Well, I left, but I think it was in 1993. That's what I heard. A
3 man --
4 Q. All right, but you have no personal knowledge of that after that
5 period of time. You weren't there; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. All right. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think there's
10 only one question that needs some more clarification, and it has to do
11 with the point in time when members of the Territorial Defence in those
12 days, as the witness has explained, were given weapons.
13 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you said that what happened was that
15 members of the Territorial Defence in your area, that is, 48 men of which
16 only five were Serbs received weapons; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when you were interviewed in October 2001, you said literally
19 -- I don't know whether you have the statement in front of you, but do
20 you remember saying at the time, and I quote: "Since I was a member of
21 the Territorial Defence, I had a uniform at home." This was a clear
22 statement by you; is that right?
23 A. When we were issued weapons, we also were issued uniforms, I mean
24 coats.
25 Q. That's why I'm asking you. You were quite emphatic here. You
Page 26191
1 said that you had a uniform at home. And then you added that the TO
2 received two machine-guns on that day, that a TO truck came, distributed
3 weapons and machine-guns. Everyone who was issued a M-48 received 30
4 bullets. Nowhere did you mention what you said today, that you didn't
5 have a uniform.
6 Wasn't it the rule for all people who were in reserve to have
7 uniforms at home? Should the need arise, they would have it at hand, as
8 you actually stated in October 2001.
9 A. I didn't have that uniform because I was in Derventa. I belonged
10 to a company of recoilless cannon, and I returned my uniform. I was in
11 Germany. Then later on when these people who needed to be selected, who
12 were serious, who didn't drink and so on, they were chosen to be given
13 uniforms and weapons.
14 Q. But that is your explanation now. Earlier on, your statement was
15 quite clear. Does that mean that people with officer ranks were given
16 uniforms on that day with officer's insignia or did they have those
17 uniforms at home already?
18 A. I can't tell you about the others. I don't know.
19 Q. Just one more point. You also said earlier on quite clearly that
20 you kept the M-48 rifles and that you were never asked to surrender the TO
21 rifles, M-48s.
22 A. Yes, until that day when Lisnja was attacked.
23 Q. But you said that you never returned those rifles.
24 A. No, I didn't say that we never returned them. But when Veljko
25 Milankovic was cursing God and saying why hadn't the weapons been
Page 26192
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 26193
1 collected when he saw the weapons.
2 Q. This is my last question. I am again drawing your attention to
3 what you said quite clearly in your statement on page 4, third paragraph.
4 "They never asked us to hand in M-48 rifles of the Territorial Defence."
5 Is that right or not?
6 A. What I meant was that they didn't ask us to hand in the weapons
7 until that event.
8 Q. But you said that you handed in 100 snipers but that these rifles
9 were never handed in.
10 A. I don't remember saying that, that the rifles were never returned.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:
13 Q. Sir, I'd like to draw your attention to the portion of your
14 testimony with respect to you testifying that you heard Milankovic ask a
15 JNA officer to move some weaponry, artillery, I believe, up to a hill
16 called Pavlovo Brdo. Now, Mr. Milosevic has suggested that or has
17 actually put to you that you have changed the identity of that officer to
18 suit the different purpose or different purposes. I'm going to ask that
19 you look at page 5 of your statement, and I have put a yellow note to the
20 precise portion that I would like you to review.
21 After you find the sentence in your statement which goes to this
22 very matter, could I ask you to read it for the Chamber.
23 A. "I heard that radio MUP --" no. "I heard that he was working in
24 the MUP." Correction.
25 Q. I believe it's the next sentence.
Page 26194
1 A. "I heard Milankovic asking a JNA officer if they would bring a
2 multiple-rocket launcher to the Pavlovo Brdo. They agreed and they
3 installed on that hill a recoilless gun. From where I stood, I could see
4 a multiple-rocket launcher and the recoilless gun on the hill."
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. GROOME: No further questions.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This question, the question that I
10 put to the witness, didn't have to do with the actions but, rather, the
11 identity of the individual. In the statement, the witness speaks of a JNA
12 officer, whereas earlier on he said, and I quoted: "He addressed an
13 officer. I don't know who he was. I don't know his name, but he was an
14 officer." And then in answer to a direct question from whoever was asking
15 the questions, in answer to a question whether he believes that he was an
16 officer of Republika Srpska, he answered yes. You can find this in
17 earlier statements. That was the point of my question.
18 JUDGE MAY: [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 26195
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 JUDGE MAY: I think we better go into private session as the
11 registrar points out.
12 [Private session]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 26196
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
11 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1610, that concludes your evidence for now,
12 but could you please be available tomorrow, we must ask you because of
13 this mistake which is nothing, of course, to do with you, but it is
14 necessary that you stay, if you would, overnight, and if necessary, we
15 will ask you to come back tomorrow morning. We will be able to fit you in
16 sometime tomorrow morning if there are any additional questions.
17 Mr. Milosevic, will you indicate tomorrow morning whether there
18 are any additional questions for the witness. Perhaps you would have a
19 look at that overnight.
20 Yes. We will put down the blinds.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
23 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I will be taking the next witness. Before
24 he comes in, there's something I'd like to raise in private session, if I
25 may.
Page 26197
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
2 [Private session]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 26198
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [Open session]
6 MS. PACK: Your Honour, again while we're waiting for the witness
7 to come in, could I ask for an exhibit number to be assigned to the
8 transcript of prior testimony and related exhibits in the binder in front
9 of you at tabs 1 to 5.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 533.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.
16 WITNESS: MUSTAFA RAMIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE MAY: And perhaps the remaining blinds could be put up.
19 Yes, Ms. Pack.
20 Examined by Ms. Pack:
21 Q. Witness, will you give the Court, please, your name.
22 A. My name is Mustafa Ramic.
23 Q. Mr. Ramic, did you testify in previous proceedings before this
24 Tribunal in September of 1999?
25 A. Yes, I did.
Page 26199
1 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I'll read a summary of that earlier
2 testimony.
3 This witness became mayor of Brcko in the 1990 elections. He was
4 heavily involved in the formation of the SDA in Brcko. The witness and
5 his brother attended the first official meeting of the SDA in Sarajevo in
6 1990 and became party members.
7 The witness explains in his earlier testimony that the SDA came in
8 second in the 1990 elections with 23 seats. The SDP, or Communist Party,
9 won the majority of seats in the municipal parliament. They were a mixed
10 group, that is, there were Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats amongst them.
11 After the election, there was a coalition set up by the SDA, HDZ and SDS.
12 The Executive Council comprised three SDA, three HDZ, and three SDS
13 members. The witness describes the various posts in the municipal
14 government occupied on a parity basis by Serbs, Muslims, and Croats. The
15 highest ranking position was occupied by the witness; he was president.
16 Lasting for several months before the war broke out, the army was
17 distributing weapons among the Serb population in villages in Brcko
18 municipality. For about a month or two before the war, there were 300 or
19 even 400 men in the town of Brcko who were not from the area.
20 The witness telephoned the JNA commander repeatedly about what was
21 happening. He also went to see him to ask why tanks were digging in and
22 groups with machine-guns deployed around the town. It was particularly
23 odd that most of these weapons were aimed at the town. The JNA commander
24 would not discuss it. He would say from time to time that these
25 activities were being conducted also as a defence against incursion of
Page 26200
1 some foreign forces from Croatia. The witness proposed a joint unit made
2 up of Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, but this was refused.
3 The SDS wanted to partition the town. This was debated at a
4 televised parliamentary session on the 17th of April, 1992. The SDA's
5 position was that this was unacceptable. All the parties took part in the
6 debate, and the conclusion was to allow the SDS to take out a part of the
7 town and a part of the municipality and call it the Serb municipality of
8 Brcko. Before this, in early April, the SDS had already proclaimed the
9 Serb municipality of Brcko.
10 By the 1st of May, 1992, when the bridges in Brcko were destroyed,
11 there was not a single bridge across which you could go to Croatia. Two
12 bridges were blown up in Brcko, the railway bridge and the bridge for
13 vehicles and pedestrians. The railway bridge was also blown up within
14 three minutes of the pedestrian/vehicle bridge. The blowing up of the
15 bridges caused panic in the town.
16 The witness had ordered that the pedestrian/vehicle bridge be
17 protected. A group of policemen had been set up as a checkpoint there.
18 They told the witness later that the people who had blown up the bridge
19 were very well prepared, that they numbered 20, and that they were from
20 Serbia. They had taken over the checkpoint. They waited until morning to
21 activate the explosives. About 150 people were on the bridge at the time.
22 They were all Bosniaks.
23 After the bridges were blown up, the witness goes on to say in his
24 earlier testimony that he went to a meeting with the commander of the
25 garrison in Brcko at the barracks. The commander said that he would bring
Page 26201
1 the army in to take control of all the more important points in town. He
2 said that he would agree not to bring the army in if the witness went on
3 television and succeeded in calming the people down. The witness agreed
4 to go on television.
5 During the broadcast, people telephoned in and said that the army
6 was already entering town. At one point, people phoned up from the local
7 community of the 4th of July and said: "The army is at present shooting
8 at us." The witness asked the deputy commander of the garrison, who was
9 with him, what this meant, given that the army had agreed not to enter
10 town. The programme was interrupted and the witness left the television
11 studio. He thought that if he had stayed, they would probably have killed
12 him.
13 The witness went ultimately to Gornji Rahic, which was in free
14 Brcko. He spent most of his time there during the war. When the shooting
15 started and the attack was launched by the JNA and paramilitary units, he
16 organised the defence of the rest of the town. They succeeded in
17 controlling part of the town and the southern reaches.
18 The witness identifies by name prominent Bosniaks from Brcko or
19 prominent members of the SDA who were killed on the first day of the
20 conflict. He gives evidence about SDA membership and party structures in
21 Brcko and supporters and members of the SDA who were killed. He
22 identifies, by reference to charts, the sections of town, Muslim majority
23 areas, which were occupied on the 1st of May, 1992.
24 JUDGE MAY: I think that's a convenient moment. We will adjourn
25 now.
Page 26202
1 Mr. Ramic, we're just going to adjourn for 20 minutes. Could you
2 remember during this adjournment and any others there may be not to speak
3 to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the
4 members of the Prosecution team.
5 Yes. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.
6 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
9 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I have a couple of supplemental questions
10 for the witness.
11 JUDGE MAY: Have you finished with the -- your summary?
12 MS. PACK: I have.
13 JUDGE MAY: You have. You don't want to deal with the rest of it.
14 Very well. Yes.
15 MS. PACK:
16 Q. Mr. Ramic, the JNA garrison commander to whom I referred in the
17 summary, what was his name?
18 A. His name was Pavle Milinkovic.
19 Q. Do you know his rank?
20 A. He was a lieutenant colonel of the Yugoslav army.
21 Q. Mr. Ramic, I read out in the summary a summary of your broadcast
22 at the television station in Brcko. You were accompanied by whom during
23 that broadcast?
24 A. It was Captain Momcilo Petrovic, assistant commander for security
25 matters.
Page 26203
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramic.
2 MS. PACK: Your Honour, that's the only supplemental matters I
3 wanted to deal with.
4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ramic, when the conflict broke out in the
7 municipality of Brcko, you were mayor at the time; right?
8 A. I was president of the municipality of Brcko.
9 Q. I see. President of the municipality of Brcko. So at the time
10 when the conflict broke out, you were the most important political figure
11 in the municipality of Brcko?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. A short while ago, when the summary was being presented, it was
14 explained that the majority vote in Brcko was won by the League of
15 Communists; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then you, the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ joined up to form a
18 coalition in order to topple them; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And after that, you had a conflict amongst you?
21 A. No, that's not the way it was.
22 Q. As you say on page 2 of your statement, in May 1990, at a meeting
23 of the Party of Democratic Action in Sarajevo when the statute was
24 adopted, together with your brother Ibrahim, you became an official of the
25 SDA. Is that right?
Page 26204
1 A. Actually, after this meeting, we were in the group of initiators
2 that established the SDA in Brcko.
3 Q. So you are one of the founders of the SDA in Brcko?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. At the same time you were a member of the Main Board of the party?
6 A. Yes, I was. I mean, I became one later.
7 Q. The Main Board for all of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
8 A. Yes, but that's what I became later.
9 Q. When was that?
10 A. Later, at the congress, which was in the month of September, as
11 far as I can remember, of 1990.
12 Q. The same year?
13 A. The same year, yes.
14 Q. That's the first time when the Main Board was elected; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So you were actually a member of this first Main Board of the
17 Party of Democratic Action that was elected?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right, Mr. Ramic. Bearing in mind all these positions you
20 held, I assume that everything that happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
21 notably in Brcko, is something that you are quite familiar with.
22 A. Well, I think so, yes.
23 Q. And your brother Ibrahim Ramic, at the beginning of the conflict
24 when you were president of the municipality, he was president of your
25 party in Brcko; is that right?
Page 26205
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 26206
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that's when the HDZ was constituted in Brcko and its president
3 was Mijo Anic.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it correct that the head of public security in Brcko, I mean
8 the police at the time of the outbreak of the conflict, was Stjepan
9 Filipovic?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. What was his ethnicity?
12 A. Croat.
13 Q. And the commander of the police was Zlatko Jacarevic, a Muslim; is
14 that right?
15 A. Well, he was one of the persons who were in top positions at the
16 SUP at the time.
17 Q. Yes. All right. So his deputy was Ivan Krndelj; right?
18 A. I don't think he had a deputy, but Ivan Krndelj was, I think, one
19 of the ten or so - how should I put this? - top people of the SUP, yes.
20 Q. And Suvalija Tanic, also a Muslim, he was head of the crime
21 investigation service in Brcko; is that right?
22 A. Yes. He was the chief of all the inspectors, yes.
23 Q. In your statement, you say that two or three months before the
24 outbreak of the conflict in Brcko, members -- the Serb members of the
25 Territorial Defence erected barricades and checkpoints around town and on
Page 26207
1 the main roads that led into town and out of town; is that right?
2 A. Well, I wouldn't put it that way. That was done by the army. It
3 was the army that set up the checkpoints, the barricades, on all
4 approaches to town and around town. That's what the army did.
5 Q. This is what you say. I'm quoting your statement now. This is
6 the last paragraph on page 5. "In addition to that, perhaps two or three
7 months before the bridges were blown up, the Serb members of the
8 Territorial Defence would erect roadblocks or checkpoints around the town
9 and on the main roads leading out of town and in the Serb areas of town."
10 So I've just quoted your own statement. I just wanted you to
11 confirm that for me.
12 A. Actually, I have to give a clarification. There wasn't a visible
13 separate organisation called the Serb Territorial Defence. There was the
14 Yugoslav army, and within it was this -- let's call it the Serb
15 Territorial Defence if that's what you wish to call them, but there were
16 also some other paramilitary formations. However, at any rate, everything
17 was under the command and organisational responsibility and control of the
18 Yugoslav army.
19 Q. At that time, as I know too, throughout Yugoslavia there was no
20 such thing as a Serb Territorial Defence, but you say Serb Territorial
21 Defence, that they erected roadblocks. Why did you put it that way then
22 in your statement? Why is that what you said?
23 A. Well, let me tell you, perhaps I did put it that way, but the
24 meaning of it is what I explained just now.
25 Q. If that's the meaning --
Page 26208
1 MS. PACK: Your Honour, perhaps the witness might be given a copy
2 of the statement if there's going to be continued questioning on that
3 paragraph.
4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. Refer the witness to that paragraph,
5 Mr. Milosevic.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Here it is, Mr. Ramic. It's the last paragraph on page 5 where it
8 says: "In addition to this, maybe two or three months before the bridges
9 were blown up, the Serb members of the TO would erect roadblocks or
10 checkpoints around the town and on the main roads leading out of the town
11 and in the Serb areas of town."
12 A. Well, now that I read this, I see that I meant something
13 completely different. When I say members of the Territorial Defence,
14 until that point in time there was a single Territorial Defence of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So Serb members from this Territorial Defence did
16 that together with the military, with the army. I didn't want to say the
17 Serb Territorial Defence.
18 Q. All right. You also say that the JNA, just before the war, armed
19 the Serb population in the surrounding villages. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But as you say yourself on page 6, because you are testifying on
22 the basis of your written statement, in paragraph 5 you suggested that a
23 multi-ethnic unit should be formed by way of a compromise in order to
24 patrol the town and the municipality of Brcko.
25 A. Yes. I can give an explanation in this respect with the
Page 26209
1 indulgence of the Honourable Court. This is what it is all about: Since
2 it was quite obvious that the Yugoslav army together with the mentioned
3 different paramilitary organisations that were ethnic Serbs only had
4 control over all the entrances into town and all other communication
5 routes that could have affected possible war developments. When I asked
6 Colonel Milinkovic -- Lieutenant Colonel Milinkovic to explain what he
7 wanted to achieve through this and what he was doing, then he explained,
8 but I mean several times he did not want to give any explanations, but
9 once he said that they did this because there was a possible danger of an
10 attack. And I asked what kind of attack, and he said an attack from
11 Croatia by the Ustashas. I'm paraphrasing now.
12 Since of course this was not correct, and since in a way he just
13 wanted to disguise his own activities, I suggested to him let's do the
14 following thing, let us defend the town with a multi-ethnic unit
15 consisting of Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. Let us establish this kind of
16 unit.
17 Q. Tell me, Mr. Ramic, wasn't the JNA such an armed force that
18 consisted of all ethnic groups, at least at that time?
19 A. Formally it was before, and I used to be a member of that kind of
20 JNA. But on the very eve of the war, it had turned into a purely ethnic
21 Serb military organisation. That's the way we can put it.
22 Q. Tell me, please, as a consequence of all of that, you say that
23 members of the Bosniak and Croat people started leaving town. I would
24 like to draw your attention to page 7, paragraph 3. You say: "Members of
25 the Bosniak and Croat communities started leaving town because they were
Page 26210
1 so worried that war would come. I should add that large numbers of Serbs
2 had left certain areas of town in mid-April. This was seen as further
3 evidence that the Serbs were preparing for war."
4 Now, please, Mr. Ramic, I quoted the entire third paragraph to
5 you. You say that the inhabitants there, the Bosniaks and the Croats,
6 were leaving town. And that this is because they were so worried that a
7 war would break out. And you say that the Serb inhabitants were doing the
8 same thing, but you understand that as further evidence that the Serbs
9 were preparing for war.
10 Now, please explain this to me. When the Bosniaks and Croats are
11 leaving, that doesn't mean that they are preparing for war. And when
12 Serbs are leaving, that is further evidence that they are preparing for
13 war.
14 How is it that you interpret the same thing in different ways in
15 the case of different ethnic groups?
16 A. What you quoted just now is perhaps not a very fortunate wording.
17 Actually, it was this way: For a while, it was noticed that Serbs, ethnic
18 Serbs, were leaving town. It would happen that overnight or, rather, the
19 next day we would realise that certain people were no longer there, that
20 they had left. This went on for a while, perhaps for about a month. And
21 it was noticeable. It's not on my part or on part of the other officials
22 in the municipality at the time, but all citizens noticed this and people
23 started talking about this, why was it that members of the Serb ethnic
24 group, the citizens of Brcko, were leaving town. Bearing in mind what was
25 going on in time in the broader region and even closer to Brcko, meaning
Page 26211
1 Bijeljina, Zvornik, Bosanski Samac, and many other things, bearing in mind
2 again that, before that, the area of Croatia was already engulfed by war,
3 so citizens who were ethnic Serbs obviously had an inkling that something
4 bad would happen. People talked about it in town. It wasn't a political
5 instruction or a pamphlet or I don't know what. Quite simply, the people
6 came to that conclusion on their own. So it was at their own initiative
7 that Bosniaks and Croats slowly started withdrawing their own family
8 members from town. That is what was going on.
9 Q. All right. Well, that's the point precisely. You say that both
10 Muslims and Croats and Serbs leave town. However, when the Muslims and
11 Croats leave, you say that this is because they were worried. And when
12 the Serbs leave, you say that they were preparing for war. Does that seem
13 logical to you, Mr. Ramic?
14 A. I think it is very logical. Please, Mr. Milosevic, there is the
15 following explanation: From some parts of town, citizens of Serb
16 ethnicity started leaving slowly for reasons unknown to us, and this had
17 been going on for a while. At the same time, there was a war, and also
18 there were war crimes that were being committed, and this news had reached
19 Brcko, and everybody knew who was doing all of this. The reaction of the
20 citizens belonging to other ethnic groups was that the same scenario was
21 being prepared for Brcko too, so let us take care of our family members,
22 and let us get out of here and move to a safer area. That was the gist of
23 it.
24 Q. If that's the gist of it, then let's go on. Finally war started
25 in the area of Brcko when, as you had put it, the bridges were blown.
Page 26212
1 That's what you say here.
2 A. Yes. Yes. That was the beginning of the war.
3 Q. Very well. Very well. Tell me first of all, you certainly know
4 where the Mujkici local commune is in Brcko.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And is it correct that in the territory of this local commune at
7 the gas station on the Brcko-Loncari road, before the conflict broke out,
8 there was a privately-owned company there, Mibo, and the Brcko brick
9 laying factory.
10 A. Yes. Yes. Mibo was not a privately-owned company though. It was
11 a state-owned company, if we can put it that way, until then, and also the
12 brick factory.
13 Q. There was DDPSC there; right?
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. So was that company. And is it correct that in 1991, very close
16 to the station where the -- where vehicles were overhauled, there was a
17 shooting range that was built there?
18 A. I don't know about that. Oh, just a minute. Perhaps you mean the
19 shooting range of the association of marksmanship in Brcko. So this is a
20 sports organisation that existed in Brcko. This was a shooting range, but
21 real ammunition was not used there but the type that is used for sports
22 events.
23 Q. All right. And is it correct that for months before the conflict
24 broke out in Brcko it was precisely Muslims from this local commune of
25 Mujkici, like from other parts of Brcko too, came to this shooting range
Page 26213
1 in order to train in terms of shooting from automatic weapons and other
2 weapons?
3 A. Oh, please. This has nothing to do with the truth. How could
4 people have automatic weapons? Everybody would have noticed something
5 like that in town, the police first and foremost. So in that case, the
6 police would certainly react. I as mayor would have been informed about
7 this certainly. I don't think this is correct at all.
8 Q. All right. So you say you don't think that's correct. Now, do
9 you know who Veljko Mensur from Brcko is?
10 A. Yes, I do know him. He's a well-known sportsman. He was a boxer
11 and karate player.
12 Q. And was he one of the instructors, the training instructors there?
13 A. No, that's not right.
14 Q. All right. Now I'm going to ask you to take a look at an Official
15 Note by the public security station in Brcko, and it relates to knowledge
16 about the activities of the SDA and HDZ in the local commune of Mujkici.
17 And I'm just going to read out a short passage from that Official Note.
18 It says: The DDPSC, which as you said a moment ago was set up in the
19 Mujkici local commune behind the Brcko Loncari petrol pump and links Sefir
20 Momimbo [phoen] and the Brcko bricklaying factory and is about 200 metres
21 from the River Sava, within the frameworks of that company there is a new
22 facility for vehicle repair with a large warehouse, and it is dug into the
23 ground. We learnt from the employees that this warehouse or storage space
24 was used by the Green Berets as a dormitory and a kitchen because we found
25 large quantities of blankets and mattresses and beds as well as a
Page 26214
1 fully-equipped kitchen. In addition to the warehouse, next to it there is
2 a shooting range for which we have received information that particularly
3 in recent months before the war conflicts broke out, was used for the
4 training and shooting using infantry weapons. It was noted that large
5 groups of Muslims from town and the Mujkici local commune would go there
6 after 3.00 p.m. for shooting practice. And when asked what they were
7 doing there by anybody, they would say that they were allegedly hunters
8 doing some target practice.
9 JUDGE MAY: What is the date -- what is the date of the document
10 that you're reading from?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The date of this document here is
12 the 7th of November, 1995. It is an Official Note by the security station
13 in Brcko. And it has a stamp as well up at the top. The Municipal
14 Secretariat, it says. I assume for the interior.
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Brcko municipality. You can have
17 it, have the witness take a look at it. And I referred to the second
18 passage that is marked in marker ink here. So you can take a look at
19 that, and I'd like to have this exhibited.
20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness see it first.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I see a
22 document of this kind and hear about it. That's the first thing I want to
23 say.
24 Secondly, this document bears the stamp of the 7th of November,
25 1995, which means when the war was already over, so this is a retroactive,
Page 26215
1 fabricated, quite obviously, document. Proof of this cannot be so, is the
2 simple explanation. That that part of town, the part of town you're
3 referring to, was of a multi-ethnic composition; there were Croats and
4 Bosniaks and Serbs living there. Had anything like that actually taken
5 place, quite certainly the organised parts of the authority, the police
6 force or other inspector services or similar services and ultimately the
7 army must have known about it, because the army did have its own patrols
8 that patrolled the area, and they would have had to have come across
9 something like that. So this is something that I see here for the first
10 time.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. But it is an Official Note and it testifies about the activities
13 prior to the beginning of the conflict.
14 A. But, Mr. Milosevic --
15 Q. It was drawn up later on --
16 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic, after the war you can
18 write whatever kind of official notes you want as to what happened and how
19 it happened. I'm now going back to the time just prior to the war, the
20 breaking out of the war, that is to say before the 1st of May, 1992. And
21 I deny that there is any truth in what this document says. Had any of
22 that been true, then not only I myself as the mayor of the town would have
23 known about it but army would have known about it too and so would the
24 police. And neither of these two institutions told me about anything of
25 that kind prior to the war.
Page 26216
1 JUDGE MAY: We'll give it a number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: D179.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I have here, Mr. Ramic, another Official Note, another document
5 which was written somewhat earlier on, in October. That's when it was
6 compiled. And it says: "In Mujkici before the war broke out on the 1st
7 of May, 1992, a new war hospital was erected equipped with equipment and
8 medicines from the city hospital. Ibrahim Ramic headed these activities,
9 the president of the SDA party." That is to say, your brother. That's
10 right, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then Trumic Zijad, director of the county hospital; and Dr.
13 Smail, an internist; the president of the SO of Brcko, Dr. Pitic Fadil,
14 who was a surgeon; and others. And before that, in the local commune of
15 Stari Rasadnik, a rally of citizens was convened with only one item on the
16 agenda: How Muslims were to be -- were armed in the community. Some of
17 the elderly people who were Muslims asked, Who are we going to fight
18 against when we have the JNA as an army? And the presiding person stated
19 on the occasion that the Muslims had to be organised and armed in their
20 struggle against the Serbs. The rally was attended by Ilic Ziko, who
21 wasn't invited, and after a short period of time, he left -- had to leave
22 the meeting. And he in fact compiled this piece of information.
23 Is that correct or not, sir?
24 A. No, none of that is true and correct. And what's your question,
25 Mr. Milosevic?
Page 26217
1 Q. As this is an Official Note by the police in Brcko, my question to
2 you is as follows: Is this and in connection with the Rasadnik meeting
3 and in connection with the hospital, and you yourself took part in the
4 organisation of it before the conflict, that is to say in preparation for
5 the conflict; is that correct or not?
6 A. Well, let's put it this way: As far as a meeting in the local
7 commune of Stari Rasadnik is concerned, I can give you the following
8 explanation: Before the war broke out on the 1st of May, certain things
9 were happening and, amongst others, the SDS came to the fore, and this
10 happened in the last ten days just before the war broke out. So ten days
11 -- the last ten days of the month of April 1992. And they asked us to be
12 allowed to form a Serb commune of Brcko. And let me say that that was a
13 move which meant the town's division, and that in turn meant that some
14 sort of boundaries were being erected which would further lead to rifts
15 and tension and which would bring about a situation which could lead to a
16 war conflict ultimately. And of course no normal person would be willing
17 to accept anything of that kind. That's my first point.
18 Now, Your Honours, might I explain the second point in order to
19 answer the question just asked. My second point is this: We raised the
20 question or, rather, it was a meeting with SDS representatives but also
21 present were representatives of the municipal structures, not only us
22 Bosniaks but others too, and they presented that request of theirs. I
23 personally asked them how they envisaged dividing up the town, a town in
24 which 90 per cent of the surface area contained a mixed population, an
25 ethnically mixed population, and they said no, we have our vision about
Page 26218
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 26219
1 all this. And what we realised and understood was that the SDS, it would
2 appear that the SDS wanted to have 70 per cent of the surface area of the
3 town, including the town centre. Economically speaking, the industry and
4 commerce to be included into that portion.
5 Now, of course that was quite unacceptable to one and all, because
6 as I said a moment ago, this was not because this would mean the creation
7 of a Serb municipality but that other things would ensue, the kind that I
8 described a moment ago, delineation, demarcation, increased tension and a
9 potential conflict.
10 Q. But that's not what you asked me.
11 A. Mr. Milosevic, I want to answer your question. I do wish to
12 answer. So it was for this reason that I held a series of meetings with
13 representatives of different kinds, persons in authority from the populous
14 at large, of different ethnic groups, and in this -- I mean of the Bosniak
15 and Croatian communities, and the conclusion drawn was this: If we wish
16 to avoid a war conflict, we would have to accept their demands.
17 Now, one of the meetings that was to follow linked to what I'm
18 saying now was the meeting at Rasadnik or, rather, in Rasadnik, and the
19 members of the Serb ethnic group was there at the meeting. So if we
20 wanted to solve any inter-Bosniak questions, we wouldn't have invited him.
21 But he did come. There was this Serb representative and others too, I
22 believe. That meant that we did want to enter into a dialogue with the
23 population to decide what was to be done. So we discussed whether we were
24 going to accept their demands, and there was no talk of arming ourselves
25 or where we would be fighting in future. So that's what I wanted to say
Page 26220
1 with respect to that meeting.
2 So that was a pure invention that the meeting discussed war and
3 armaments and so on.
4 As far as the hospital in Maoca is concerned, I should like to say
5 that that particular hospital was set up during the war, after the war had
6 already broken out and after we had seen a large number of wounded persons
7 during the fighting, during combat, or persons who had escaped from the
8 centre of town. And as the hospital was in the town in this free area, we
9 didn't have a hospital. It was quite logical for us to set up a sort of
10 makeshift hospital. So that's what we chose. And it was a health centre
11 set up in the local school.
12 Q. All right, Mr. Ramic. As my time limited, may I ask you to answer
13 my questions and not elaborate. If you wish to say any additional things,
14 you can ask permission to do so.
15 Is it true that the topic of the meeting held in the Stari
16 Rasadnik local commune was the arming of Muslims and the fight against
17 Serbs? Yes or no.
18 A. It is not true that the subject we discussed was armament, arming.
19 Q. All right. Now, I'd like to exhibit this. This is an Official
20 Note by a state organ, and you will be able to assess what it says and the
21 weight it carries?
22 JUDGE MAY: Just before we go any further, hand it to the witness
23 first of all. Where does it come from, Mr. Milosevic? What is the state
24 organ?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The state organ is the Ministry of
Page 26221
1 the Interior, the public security station of Brcko.
2 JUDGE MAY: And the date?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 18th of October, 1995.
4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Show it to the witness, please.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And it deals with the time before
6 the war broke out on the 1st of May, 1992.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I've seen
8 this document. I haven't seen it previously, and I don't think that it is
9 correct. I think it is completely fabricated.
10 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we'll come to something that
12 you won't be able to challenge.
13 JUDGE MAY: We'll give it the exhibit number next.
14 THE REGISTRAR: D180.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Is it true and correct, sir --
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Is it true and correct, Mr. Ramic, that in Maoca and Gornji Rahici
20 as the leaders of the SDA you put up far before the conflict broke out the
21 wartime Presidency? You accommodated them; is that correct?
22 A. No, that is not correct.
23 Q. And did you indeed set up a war Presidency in Brcko?
24 A. A war Presidency in Brcko did not exist. What existed was the
25 Council for National Defence. And when I say that, Mr. Milosevic, I'm
Page 26222
1 sure you know that this institution was the kind that existed at the time,
2 a Council for National Defence. And at the head of it there was -- I was
3 at the head of it as mayor, but we also had the command of the garrison,
4 Lieutenant Colonel Milinkovic. The commander of the Territorial Defence
5 staff was also a member of the council, his name was Milisav Milutinovic.
6 The president of the Executive Board of the Brcko municipality, his name
7 was Pero Markovic, and so on. So the members reflected the multinational
8 character. There were Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs on that body. That was
9 what the situation was like until the war, until the conflict on the 1st
10 of May, 1992.
11 Q. And when did you set up your War Presidency in fact?
12 A. Well, the War Presidency or Crisis Staff, that is one and the same
13 thing, was formed by us after the war began, that is to say, after the 1st
14 of May, after the events that took place in town when the aggressor
15 occupied the town.
16 Q. All right. How far is it from Brcko to Brod?
17 A. Brod is on the --
18 Q. From Brcko to Bosanski Brod, I mean.
19 A. Oh, I see, Bosanski Brod. Well, I can't give you the exact
20 distance but it is about 80 kilometres.
21 Q. And do you know of an event that took place when the forces of the
22 Croatian army stormed the area, the village of Sijekovac and others, where
23 a large number of Serbs were killed far before these events took place in
24 Brcko itself?
25 A. I do know of the war conflicts and what took place but not that
Page 26223
1 particular event that you mentioned. At least I don't know the details.
2 Q. But what do you know about them? You know nothing?
3 A. I do know that there was fighting, and I do know that -- within
4 the war and that the army, the Yugoslav army, took up its positions, and I
5 also know that it was Croatia, I think, in that period that the Croatian
6 Defence Council was set up and that it assumed its positions. Anyway,
7 that there was a conflict in the area, that's what I know in general
8 terms.
9 Q. Very well, is it true that the Serbs living in the area of the
10 local commune of Stari Rasadnik several months before the conflict had to
11 leave their homes?
12 A. No, that is not true. What would the reason be for them to do
13 that?
14 Q. Very well. You say no, and we'll move on. Do you know who Suad
15 Omer is? Have you heard of that man?
16 A. I can't remember that name.
17 Q. Let me read to you an official report on the 21st of November,
18 1991, dated the 21st of November, 1991. As you can see, several months
19 before the outbreak of the conflict. And it says: "On the 21st of
20 November, 1991, during regular duties at the Sanski Most checkpoint we
21 stopped Zundo Omer, the son of Hasan, born in 1948, from Gunja who was
22 driving from Gunja to Brcko a wheelbarrow. When we checked the goods, we
23 found 10 automatic Kalashnikov rifles, 3 light machine guns, 20 hand
24 grenades and 1.600 pistol rounds of 62 millimetre calibre."
25 And then he goes on to explain who was supposed to meet him and
Page 26224
1 what he was supposed to do and it says that the report was compiled in the
2 SUP premises by policemen Mirsad Omerovic, as you see a Muslim policeman,
3 and Smailefendic Jasko when discovering the weapons at the Sanski Most
4 checkpoint. And the note was written and signed by Mirsad Omerovic and
5 Smailefendic Jasko, police station Brcko. It has its number 1338/91 and
6 the date is the 21st of November, 1991.
7 So 10 automatic Kalashnikovs, 3 machine-guns, 20 hand grenades,
8 1.600 bullets. Are you aware of that? You were then already president of
9 the municipality, were you?
10 A. I heard of that case.
11 Q. You can look at this and I wish to tender it into evidence as
12 well. And I wish to draw your attention that it is dated November 1991.
13 And the conflict, as you say, broke out on the 1st of May the following
14 year?
15 A. Do you wish my comment? I heard about it --
16 Q. Well I asked you --
17 JUDGE MAY: One at a time. Let the witness look at the document.
18 If you have any comments about it, then make them.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But in this document it also
20 says the following: "After the weapons passed by and talking to Suad
21 Omer, we learned that he intended to carry the weapons across the bridge
22 where he was due to meet with certain gentlemen from Zvornik for whom he
23 had to carry the weapons across the bridge because they had paid 200 marks
24 for this service. They were to have met him with a vehicle to take over
25 the weapons." So that is the complete report.
Page 26225
1 JUDGE MAY: You must let him finish.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I am trying to say is that I am
3 familiar with this event. The police in those days told me that this had
4 happened in this way. However, this was not a system of arming the
5 citizens of Brcko because, as you see, this was a case of smuggling of
6 weapons.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. But that was my next question. At the time, as president of the
9 municipality, were you aware that those weapons were to have been handed
10 to Blasko Lovric, Drago Franjic, and Marin Zecevic from Zvornik?
11 A. I can't remember all the details with accuracy, but what I do
12 remember is that this was a classical case of arms smuggling, arms
13 trafficking.
14 Q. So arms trafficking in Brcko. Were they Serbs?
15 A. No. From Croatia into Bosnia and Herzegovina. At the time, I was
16 not informed what was the final destination of those weapons, but clearly
17 the man that you mention was just somebody who was carrying those weapons
18 from Croatia to Bosnia and Herzegovina.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And who was supposed to give it to Blasko Lovric, Drago Franjic,
21 and Marin Zecevic from Zvornik.
22 A. Yes. I believe that this document is authentic.
23 Q. Very well.
24 JUDGE MAY: It will be given a number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: D181.
Page 26226
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. May?
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Tell me, please, as the town mayor, did you know that police
5 officers Mirsad Omerovic and Sefik Hasanovic, on the 10th of November,
6 1991, the 10th of November, 1991 - both policemen are Muslims - at the
7 Savski Most checkpoint, stopped a passenger vehicle, a Yugo 45 with
8 licence plates OS149068, driven by a certain Radosava Ivanic, accompanied
9 with Vinko Vucicevic, Gasparovic Zeljko, and Terzic Antun, all from
10 Zupanja and Babina Greda in Croatia? Do you know anything about that
11 incident?
12 A. I cannot remember that.
13 Q. At the time, pistols were confiscated, rifles, a sniper, bombs, 18
14 kilogrammes of explosives -- I underline this: 18 kilogrammes of
15 explosives -- bullets packed in 200-gram packages each, plus 1.100 grams
16 of Vitezit explosives, three sabotage time fuses, pistol bullets, et
17 cetera, et cetera. So this is the official report dated the 10th of
18 November, 1991, compiled in the police station in Brcko and signed by
19 Omerovic Mirsad, a Muslim by name and surname, and Hasanovic Sefik, also a
20 Muslim, and it contains all these details, including seven detonators,
21 fuses, and other things in addition to the weapons, explosives, together
22 with all the accompanying devices for provoking explosives and destroying
23 facilities. And then it says who was in the vehicle. I asked you. You
24 don't know anything about it, but please look at this official report.
25 Are you informed about it?
Page 26227
1 A. No. I don't remember that. I'd like to see it, though.
2 Q. Yes, please do. It has a number, a date, and a signature.
3 A. I see this for the first time, and I don't remember this report.
4 However, Your Honours, I would like to provide an explanation. Please
5 bear in mind that policemen who thwarted this in both these documents were
6 of Bosniak ethnicity. I wish to add to this that one of the two from the
7 previous document, called Smailefendic Jasko, or Jasmin, was killed during
8 the war on the side of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 Therefore, what I'm trying to say is it was not logical for a
10 system of arming of citizens to exist and for an organised force to have
11 been involved in this, a political or statal force, but that this was just
12 arms trafficking. This was a period of intensified fighting in the
13 immediate vicinity in Croatia. Brcko is on the border. And for months
14 throughout that period we could hear shooting and during the night one
15 could see flashes from the fighting. So that was the atmosphere that
16 existed. So it's no wonder that there was arms smuggling as well.
17 JUDGE MAY: Let us -- before we go any further, let us get a
18 number for this exhibit.
19 THE REGISTRAR: D182.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I too wish to point out, and I did so when reading it out to you,
22 that the policemen were Muslims and that they seized weapons that were
23 being smuggled from Croatia into Bosnia and Herzegovina. And what you are
24 saying only shows that those people were not involved, but it doesn't mean
25 that this was not organised. Those men, of course, were not implicated.
Page 26228
1 Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing the arrests.
2 Now, as you say that you're not aware of this as president of the
3 municipality, though you should have been because it is important, that on
4 that day, the 10th of November, 1991, those same persons had intended, at
5 the Brcko rail station, to carry out a sabotage, an act of sabotage and
6 blow up a military convoy. And testifying to this is a document of the
7 Brcko police, a criminal report against these persons. All these persons
8 are listed, these same persons, and then it goes on to say - I'm just
9 quoting a part of it - the intention being that same night they intended
10 to use the explosives and to plant them to blow up a railway convoy with
11 military vehicles on them, but they didn't succeed because at 2200 hours
12 they were stopped, searched, and these things found on them. As a result,
13 they committed a criminal offence, and the head of the public security
14 station, Stjepan Filipovic, addresses this criminal report to the public
15 prosecutor in Brcko on the 10th of November, 1991.
16 So the intention was to blow up a military transport at the Brcko
17 railway station. Are you aware of that or not, in view of the fact that
18 you were president of the municipality at the time?
19 A. I didn't receive the explanation that you are reading to me now,
20 but I would like to add the following: This proves simultaneously the
21 activities of the authorities in Brcko at the time to prevent any kind of
22 import or allowing things that could lead to instability and tension.
23 So precisely this document testifies to that when you spoke of
24 Stjepan Filipovic as the chief of police. So he's acting in that
25 capacity.
Page 26229
1 Q. I'm talking about what was going on. As for what the policemen
2 did, that was their duty to do it. But this is an act of sabotage. This
3 is a criminal report, criminal charges dated November 1991. I wish to
4 tender that too, please.
5 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness see it first, and if he has any
6 comments, he can make them.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have occasion to see this
8 document. I see it for the first time, and I believe that the police
9 headed by the chief of police, Stjepan Filipovic, was actually
10 implementing our own political wish and policy to avoid any conflict in
11 Brcko.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Ramic, I do believe that the police in those days was still
14 implementing the law and not your political will or desire, because this
15 was an act of sabotage. But do you know that one of the accused --
16 JUDGE MAY: Just wait a moment. You can't make comments like that
17 when you're supposed to be examining.
18 The accused suggests that all Filipovic was doing was implementing
19 the law, it's said, and not your political will. Now, his having made
20 that comment, you're entitled to respond, Mr. Ramic, if you want to, or
21 not.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say the following: I
23 believe that Mr. Milosevic is trying to prove to us that we were creating
24 the conditions for the outbreak of the conflict by being witnesses and
25 accomplices to the arming, and that is what in fact he said in reference
Page 26230
1 to that meeting in Stari Rasadnik. I wanted to respond by saying that the
2 political authorities, the state authorities in those days were
3 endeavouring and striving to implement the law, and the political will of
4 all the people in power, the multi-ethnic authorities in those days, had
5 that same desire. So their views and wishes were identical.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. May?
7 JUDGE MAY: We'll get an exhibit number for the last exhibit to be
8 handed in, the last police report.
9 THE REGISTRAR: D183.
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you know that one of the accused, Radosav Ivanic gave a
13 statement to the effect that with the others, he was to plant explosives
14 for this military transport carrying guns and caterpillar tractors, heavy
15 vehicles, armoured vehicles, et cetera, which were to be transported to
16 Serbia? That was this military transport that was at the railway station.
17 A. I think there was no military transport going from Brcko to
18 Serbia. Quite the opposite, all military transports came to Brcko. So
19 such events did not take place. I am not aware of that name, but I also
20 have an additional explanation and question or, rather, reply. Are you
21 claiming that among those members there wasn't a single man of Serb
22 ethnicity?
23 Q. Which members? Those who were going to blow up the military
24 transport?
25 A. Yes, those who had such intentions.
Page 26231
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 26232
1 Q. I'm not entering into that. The point is that it was intended
2 against the JNA, and judging by the surnames, they were Croats or Muslims,
3 as far as I can tell.
4 A. I'm not quite sure that they were all Croats. What I'm trying to
5 say is that there was no military transport carrying military equipment
6 from Brcko to Serbia. Quite the opposite. Military materiel and military
7 contingents and troops came to Brcko.
8 Q. But this military transport at the station ready to leave surely
9 would have been unloaded if it had arrived there. Isn't it clear,
10 Mr. Ramic, that when you're talking about the amassing of weapons by the
11 JNA in Brcko in the spring of 1991 you're saying quite the opposite from
12 the official information, that already in 1991 heavy weapons were
13 transferred from Brcko to Serbia already in 1991? You have the Official
14 Note here, an official report compiled after an interview with Radoslav
15 Ivanic, Osijek municipality, a resident of that municipality, et cetera,
16 regarding the circumstances of the act of terrorism at the railway station
17 in Brcko?
18 A. I am claiming that military materiel and military equipment and
19 weapons were only coming to Brcko, that nothing went from Brcko in the
20 direction of Serbia.
21 Q. A moment ago when I asked you about this interception and
22 confiscation of weapons that you didn't know anything about it. You now
23 appear to have some knowledge.
24 A. That is not true. You asked me a moment ago whether I knew of
25 that incident, and now you're asking me whether military materiel was
Page 26233
1 going from Brcko to Serbia, and this is my response to that question.
2 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Now, we have come to the time when we
3 should adjourn.
4 Mr. Milosevic, you will have had one hour cross-examining this
5 witness already. We bear in mind that this is a transcript witness and an
6 important one, and therefore you should have longer than the usual time.
7 We've considered how much longer you should have. I note that the witness
8 in the original trial was one hour and a half in chief. Bearing all those
9 matters in mind, we consider you should have another three-quarters of an
10 hour to cross-examine this witness. That will be in the morning.
11 Yes.
12 MR. NICE: May I, through Your Honours, remind the amicus, I'm
13 sure they don't need reminding, but associates, that Mr. Saxon has
14 organised one of his regular Rule 68 meetings this afternoon, and it will
15 of course be of great assistance to the proper discharge of our Rule 68
16 duties if not only the amicus but the associates can attend, as they've
17 been invited to do on previous occasions.
18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. They will have heard that.
19 We will adjourn now. Nine o'clock tomorrow -- nine o'clock
20 tomorrow morning.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.
22 JUDGE MAY: What is it, Mr. Milosevic?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to tender this note
24 regarding the circumstances of the terrorist act at the railway station in
25 Brcko compiled on the 10th of November, 1991, as an exhibit, please.
Page 26234
1 JUDGE MAY: Is it an official report?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, an official report. It
3 has a number, a date, the 10th of November, 1991, and it has to do with
4 the circumstances of the terrorist act at the railway station in Brcko.
5 JUDGE MAY: What we will do is this, that when we return tomorrow
6 morning, the witness can have a look at it. We will take it now, and we
7 will return to it tomorrow morning. It can be given the next exhibit
8 number meanwhile.
9 THE REGISTRAR: D184.
10 JUDGE MAY: And you'll let us know -- yes. We'll take that in,
11 and we'll ask the witness about it in the morning, D184. And
12 Mr. Milosevic, you will let us know tomorrow morning, we shall ask you
13 whether you have any extra questions for the last witness. You remember
14 there was some additional material.
15 We will adjourn --
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I manage to read those 100-odd
17 pages in addition to everything else.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nine o'clock tomorrow morning,
20 please.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
22 1.59 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
23 the 10th day of September, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.
24
25