Page 33762
1 Wednesday, 24 November 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I believe you said you had one
7 more matter to raise with the witness, or are you finished?
8 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't get any interpretation of that.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I wanted to put another
11 question to this witness, and that will be my final question.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Are you getting interpretation now?
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please go ahead.
14 WITNESS: LEONID IVASOV [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]
17 Q. [Interpretation] General Ivasov, yesterday we started discussing
18 the meeting which you attended together with Chernomyrdin, Atasari, and
19 the entire Russian delegation; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you remember that at the time, we were guaranteed a
22 sovereignty, territorial integrity, and then the issue discussed was the
23 arrival of the UN security forces which was to guarantee the security of
24 all citizens living in Kosovo?
25 A. Yes.
Page 33763
1 Q. Do you remember that, in view of the fact that our country was not
2 defeated in that war, we raised an issue with your entire delegation,
3 headed by Chernomyrdin, to the effect that we could not agree to these
4 forces being introduced pursuant to Chapter VII of the UN Charter, which
5 specifies that the forces used?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
7 MR. NICE: It's all leading questioning.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. And I don't think it's relevant. Move on
9 -- if that's the only question, then your examination-in-chief is at an
10 end.
11 Mr. Nice.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wish to put my question. I
13 need to put my question.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you must put it in a way which is not
15 leading and which makes it relevant.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is very relevant, very relevant
17 indeed.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Is it true, General Ivasov, is it true that Chernomyrdin, in his
20 capacity of envoy of President Yeltsin and as representative of Russia
21 guaranteed to us on behalf of Russia and President Yeltsin that their
22 resolution would not be passed pursuant to Chapter VII and that should
23 there be any attempts to pass it based on Chapter VII, Russia would veto
24 it?
25 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, that's an entirely leading question.
Page 33764
1 The time must arise --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is so.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Quite apart from its leading nature, I rule it to
4 be irrelevant. So that concludes the examination-in-chief, Mr. Milosevic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have ruled on it.
7 Mr. Nice, begin your cross-examination.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
9 Q. General --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. Mr. Milosevic, you are not being heard.
12 Your examination-in-chief is at an end. Mr. Nice will begin his
13 cross-examination.
14 MR. NICE:
15 Q. General Ivasov, you made a number of general, broad assertions
16 yesterday which may be interpreted as allegations against the United
17 States of America, NATO, I think even the United Kingdom. I want you to
18 understand that I have absolutely no interest in defending the United
19 States or NATO or the United Kingdom, and that if these allegations of
20 yours are relevant to this trial, and if they may be shown to be true,
21 it's far better that they emerge in this trial. Do you understand?
22 A. Yes, I understand.
23 Q. I want you to understand that it's no part of my function to
24 attack your evidence as unreliable or as untrue. It's my duty simply to
25 test it, and that is what I will do. Do you understand?
Page 33765
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And so that there can be no mistake about this in light of many of
3 the questions asked of you by the accused, you, General Ivasov, coming, of
4 course, from what was for a long time a communist country, will understand
5 that the standards to be applied in testing your evidence will be the same
6 as the standards that will be applied in testing the evidence of an
7 ordinary Kosovo Albanian villager, and you would expect no different,
8 would you? You would expect no different, would you, General?
9 A. I protest against my country being accused of having lived in the
10 socialist period and your reproach or hint that I will fail to be
11 objective because of that. It's not acceptable.
12 Q. You observed yesterday --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one moment. I certainly didn't understand
14 that as a reproach. I understood that to be emphasising the principle of
15 communism that everyone was treated equally.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that the dispute between
17 capitalism and communism is not subject for discussion in this audience.
18 MR. NICE:
19 Q. You told us yesterday, General, that - at page 12 of the
20 transcript the way I have it paginated - that you relied on -- no. Let me
21 go right back to the beginning in case there are any people who didn't --
22 who currently is viewing the proceedings who didn't see it yesterday.
23 Your clear thesis is that the United States of America had and
24 pursued a preconceived plan to destroy the former Yugoslavia. Is this
25 correct?
Page 33766
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, you told us yesterday, page 12, that you relied
3 on various types of information and analyses. Did you receive analyses in
4 completed form from subordinates and act on that, or did you conduct the
5 analysis of raw material yourself?
6 A. I conducted this analysis both myself, by obtaining vast
7 information, information which testified to the fact that starting from
8 1998, January of 1998 --
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... detail will come later. You
10 conducted the analysis yourself --
11 A. I conducted the analysis myself, and the analysis was also
12 conducted by rather strong departments of the Ministry of Defence, the
13 Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Chief of Staff, and the special services,
14 and this conclusion was a common conclusion of those centres.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... General, not substance. Now,
16 from what you've told us, then, you should be in a position to explain
17 exactly what raw material there was to work upon. Correct or not?
18 A. I'm ready to explain.
19 Q. The question was a simple one. Are you able to tell us what was
20 the raw material relied upon for this conclusion about the plan of the
21 United States of America? Yes or no.
22 A. I can say yes.
23 Q. Thank you. I understand your answer that there was, as it were,
24 an intervening intermediate level of reporting by those who conducted
25 analyses on your behalf. Let's just have an answer to this straight away:
Page 33767
1 Are those written analyses available for this Court to read; and will they
2 be provided by you or by Russia?
3 A. Yes, they can be provided by Russia.
4 Q. Why haven't you brought them with you?
5 A. I brought with me all the -- those things which today are not
6 classified. Yesterday I showed to you a declassified analysis of the
7 General Staff of the Russian Federation. Here it is. I'm holding it in
8 front of you.
9 Q. Let's pursue that. From your answer, there was clearly some
10 reporting or analysis that is classified. Are you going to be able to
11 produce that to us or not?
12 A. I can present only those things which are declassified today and
13 published, and I will present such things if need be. Those things which
14 today are still a secret, I have no authority to discuss this. And
15 moreover, the United States or NATO never presented such documents
16 themselves. Today I can present only expert --
17 Q. We are not concerned at the moment with what America does. And
18 this Chamber is aware, because it has to deal with the processes for
19 compelling production of documents by states, of the privileges that some
20 countries hold, but you have chosen to come here and make extraordinarily
21 broad allegations and you're now telling us, are you, that some of this is
22 on the basis of secret information that you won't tell us about. Is that
23 right?
24 A. I'm ready to present part of those documents and of those analyses
25 of the General Staff which have been declassified, and I'm convinced that
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Page 33769
1 those documents would be sufficient for tendering in court. Those
2 documents which are a secret are beyond my authority to -- for me to
3 tender them here and present them.
4 Q. General, you will understand that it's not your judgement on what
5 is sufficient in this court that counts. The three gentlemen whose
6 judgement matters are sitting in front of me. You have chosen, without it
7 being absolutely plain, to give opinions based on material that you're now
8 -- or material that you're going to keep secret. Let's explore that
9 material, shall we?
10 A. Mr. Nice, I'm saying that this is my opinion, and this is what I
11 think. However, I'm not the one to judge whether that material will be
12 sufficient or not.
13 Q. Let's just take an example, General, before we return to the
14 substance of your evidence. If you were to, in your capacity as a
15 military leader, to advise your political masters that they should attack
16 some other country, and if your political masters wanted to see the raw
17 material justifying your decision, would you say that it would be
18 appropriate for them to see that material, or would you say that you would
19 be entitled to keep it from them?
20 A. To my authorities, I report that information which I receive from
21 different sources, as well as the minutes of my meetings with Mr. Hun
22 [phoen], with Mr. Robinson, with Mr. Slocum, Warner, Naumann, Solana, and
23 others. And on the basis of those negotiations and different documents,
24 on the basis of the participation in various conferences, my subordinates
25 and myself, we analyse that material and report to our authorities. And
Page 33770
1 when the authorities receive from various sources - not only my sources
2 but other sources as well - various materials, conclusions and data, the
3 authorities have the capability to draw its own conclusions and form and
4 shape its own position, and this is a classical scheme of work of any
5 military institution.
6 If you would like to ask me for any specifics, I can quote here
7 specific examples or quotes from my meetings with the Secretary-General of
8 NATO and also ministers of defence of NATO Member States and also deputy
9 ministers of the United States, et cetera.
10 Q. General, that is a long answer, not responsive to a simple
11 question. If you were advising your political masters to take some grave
12 action and they asked to see the raw material, would you show it to them?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 A. I showed to my superiors such materials, but my materials were not
16 the only sources for drawing conclusions and decision-making.
17 Q. Now, let's examine the material that you declined to make
18 available to this Court. In forming your opinion, did you have intercept
19 of telephone conversations of, let us say, Presidents Bush and Clinton to
20 work on? Yes or no.
21 A. Mr. Nice, in the first observation, I'm not refusing to tender any
22 documents in court. I'm only stating that I'm able to tender only such
23 materials which have been published and which are declassified.
24 Secondly, I believe that this is not subject to debate whether we
25 ever listened to intercepts or --
Page 33771
1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sorry?
2 A. -- speeches or conversations from Clinton and Yeltsin, et cetera.
3 This is a different level of confidentiality. I refuse to answer your
4 question.
5 Q. I hadn't asked you, but it's helpful to know that you should
6 assume I was inquiring into the army's -- please listen to me. That you
7 should assume I was inquiring into the army's intercepting its own
8 president for it was not a question that I asked in those terms at all.
9 We will draw our own inferences from that.
10 It is not for you to decide what is relevant. It is for the
11 Judges. The question is, please: In forming your extraordinarily strong
12 conclusion, General Ivasov, did you have intercepts of telephone
13 conversations of Western leaders? Yes or no.
14 A. I can affirm only one thing, that the telephones of Hashim Thaci
15 were bugged by the Serbian services, and the Russian side participated.
16 But those were the telephone conversations between -- with the head of a
17 terrorist organisation. That was quite legal. And I can confirm that
18 Ms. Albright also participated in there.
19 Q. In what?
20 A. That in the fact that she -- I can actually give you -- quote two
21 examples: September 1998, when Ms. Albright advised Hashim Thaci to agree
22 to the introduction of NATO troops to Kosovo, and in response she would
23 guarantee the conduct of a referendum for Kosovo's independence.
24 On the 25th of April, 1999, on the second day after the
25 commencement of the bombardment of Yugoslavia, Ms. Albright demanded that
Page 33772
1 the KLA would raise an insurgency, and in response in Rambouillet,
2 Mr. Hashim Thaci made a statement, and I can quote.
3 Q. Go on. Document with you --
4 A. I would like to outline the efforts of the American Secretary of
5 State Madeleine Albright. In the press communique which was made by
6 Hashim Thaci, he outlines: "I would like to especially outline the
7 tireless efforts of the American Secretary of State Albright," and further
8 on, "Kosovo invites the NATO forces and expects their soon deployment."
9 So here I'm talking about the connections between the terrorists
10 and the officials of --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: General. General, what document did you just
12 read from?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This -- these documents are the
14 documents of the Yugoslav army's services. These are not documents, these
15 are radio and telephone intercepts of Hashim Thaci, the head of
16 terrorists.
17 MR. NICE:
18 Q. Could you make them available to the Court, please.
19 A. I believe that this is the internal matter of the current
20 government of the Republic of Serbia and Montenegro. I cannot do this on
21 their behalf.
22 Q. General, if you start reading from documents in court, prima facie
23 the Court is entitled to see it and probably take possession of it. Can
24 you make it available to the Court, please.
25 A. I'm responding to your question, Mr. Nice.
Page 33773
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think he was saying he wouldn't make it
2 available. Pass it over to the usher. Yes, the document that you just
3 read from.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to say that I have no
5 authority to provide this document because I have no power to do so. I
6 did not receive any mandate to do so, either from my government or the
7 government of Serbia and Montenegro.
8 MR. NICE: Your Honour --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You will realise, then, Mr. Milosevic, that the
10 evidence is almost valueless. If the document that he read come cannot be
11 passed over to the Court for the reasons that he just outlined, the
12 evidence is valueless, because it is not, then, going to be able to be
13 tested.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to protest very emphatically.
15 Mr. Nice is badgering this witness, a very renowned witness --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm stopping you. There is no badgering of the
17 witness. He's perfectly entitled to put every single question that he has
18 to the witness, and you should have organised your examination of this
19 witness in such a way that the witness would be able to substantiate what
20 he said in court with documents which are available. The evidence is
21 totally meaningless if it cannot be tested, if he's not in a position to
22 pass over to the Court the document that he just read from.
23 I'll consult.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you might want to ascertain during
Page 33774
1 the break whether the general can receive the authority that he says is
2 necessary to hand over the document. Until that is done, speaking for
3 myself, I would not attach much weight to the evidence that he has given
4 because the Court is not in a position to see the document. We don't even
5 know whether what he has read is actually in the document or what else is
6 in the document.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have already asked you,
8 Mr. Robinson, whether you doubt that General Ivasov, who enjoys great
9 repute both in the East and the West is speaking the truth or not. He is
10 at the top of the military pyramid.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to stop you. It's not for you to ask
12 me any questions. We will determine what weight to attach to the
13 evidence, and I've told you that this evidence, as far as I'm concerned,
14 is practically worthless if the Prosecutor and the Court is not able to
15 see the document from which he just read. If you want us to attach -- if
16 you want me to attach any weight to it, you must get the authority from
17 Russia which is needed for him to hand it over to the Court so that we can
18 look at it. From Serbia, rather, from Serbia.
19 JUDGE KWON: General -- go ahead. Is the document what you read a
20 minute ago an intercept or original report or a summary made by yourself?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement of Hashim Thaci that I
22 just read out was published in open press. The two excerpts that I read
23 earlier were indeed intercepts, intercepts made by secret services.
24 After this hearing, I can leave in this court these documents of
25 the General Staff, and I underline that these are documents and a
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Page 33776
1 monograph of the General Staff written based on many, many documents,
2 declassified documents related to the Kosovo crisis.
3 JUDGE KWON: Speaking for myself, I would not allow the witness to
4 read out a document which cannot be passed on to the Trial Chamber.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will take this into
6 account. But there is certain information that I received in the course
7 of my discussions with the high officials of various countries. How are
8 we to treat that information? For instance, my discussions with Deputy
9 Defence Ministers Slocum and Warner, who were the first to show me that,
10 from the beginning of 1998, a course was taken to force Yugoslavia to
11 accept --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: The issues that you just raised go fundamentally
13 to how the accused manages his case. He's mismanaging the case, because
14 you are seeking to introduce evidence here to make allegations which
15 require for their substantiation certain documents, and you do not have
16 the documents. In those circumstances, the Chamber, in my view, will not
17 be in a position to attach much weight to the evidence.
18 Judge Bonomy.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, I would like to deal with what I
22 think is a basic misunderstanding on your part of our position. I
23 certainly would never reach a final judgement on the credibility or
24 reliability of any witness at all in this case until I'd heard all the
25 evidence in the case, and therefore it's important, when you lead evidence
Page 33777
1 from any witness, to do all that you possibly can to reinforce the
2 credibility and reliability of that witness. That's number one.
3 The second point is a point of clarification. I wish to ask the
4 general a question, which may be a problem of translation or
5 interpretation.
6 You indicated that the Serbian authorities did bug Thaci with
7 assistance from Russia, and you then said that Albright also participated.
8 Did you mean to say that, as a result of doing so, you were intercepting
9 her conversation, or did you mean to say that the United States were
10 involved in that exercise?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am just saying, for the record,
12 that Madam Albright speak to Mr. Thaci, Hashim Thaci.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me clarify what I said earlier.
14 Mr. Milosevic, as an accused, there is absolutely no burden on you
15 to prove anything. You can sit there and remain totally silent,
16 absolutely silent. The legal burden is on the Prosecutor to prove the
17 allegations in the indictment. But to the extent that you adduce
18 evidence, and you wish - don't speak when I'm speaking - and you wish the
19 Court to take account of that evidence, then you must do so in a manner
20 which makes the evidence as credible as possible, otherwise the Chamber
21 will not be in a position to attach much weight to it, and this is the
22 position we find ourselves in at this stage.
23 Mr. Nice, continue.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, just let us make one
25 thing clear. I would like us to understand each other. Far be it from me
Page 33778
1 to think that you are disputing the credibility of General Ivasov. That's
2 one.
3 And second, on the basis of what do you assume that the entire
4 book of documents which have been declassified and then published does not
5 contain anything of any use to you? General Ivasov told you the documents
6 that have been declassified, from which the stamp "Official Secret" has
7 been removed, were included in the book. Look in these documents and you
8 will see. And generally speaking, the minutes and his evidence on his
9 discussions with the officials of the NATO alliance concerning the attack
10 on Yugoslavia is a major issue. I don't see how anyone can dispute that
11 these discussions took place and that in the course of these
12 discussions --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are now discussing the particular document
14 from which the witness just read and which he's not in a position to hand
15 over to the Court. A novel position for me.
16 Mr. Nice, please continue.
17 MR. NICE: Yes. Before I ask my next question, can I, just for
18 convenience, summarise the position. The document that the accused just
19 referred to, which is, I think, the red-coloured book that the witness has
20 held up, was not served in advance, has not been translated, was not
21 relied on in any substantive way if at all in evidence-in-chief, and it is
22 simply not realistic or acceptable to ask us post the evidence of the
23 witness to conduct our own analysis in a way that may be favourable to the
24 accused.
25 Procedurally, the accused has to understand, and I'm sure the
Page 33779
1 Court -- well, the Court's been making this point to him, that if he wants
2 to rely on a document, it has to be prepared in advance, served in advance
3 if it's a substantial document for me to deal with. I am anxious not to
4 waste the Court's time with having this witness's evidence adjourned, but
5 if the accused actually wants us to consider that book, then out of his
6 budget of time, he would have to ask now for arrangements to be made for
7 the book to be translated, to reopen his examination-in-chief, and to take
8 the witness through the relevant parts of it. I don't ask for that to
9 happen, and I hope it won't, but that is what he should be doing.
10 Second, the general has so for declined and refused to answer
11 questions about intercepts generally. He's made one selection that he
12 obviously came prepared with, and he's refused to hand the piece of paper
13 over. I will carry on asking him questions, but depending on his
14 response, the time may come when I shall ask that his evidence be
15 disregarded altogether.
16 The solemn declaration that witnesses take is to tell the truth,
17 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. That obliges them not to be
18 selective. And if they become selective, the question of their attitude
19 toward the Court is at large, in our submission.
20 Q. General --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope it is clear to you that the
24 testimony of General Ivasov about the fact that the Clinton administration
25 had planned the aggression on Yugoslavia is not based on one single detail
Page 33780
1 that he mentioned in passing, this intercept of a conversation between
2 Hashim Thaci and Mrs. Albright. There are many other facts in which this
3 is grounded, and among those facts are his own personal conversations with
4 NATO officials. So even if you choose to completely discount this
5 intercept, you can take his evidence that it was so and these issues were
6 raised at the highest level within the framework of the cooperation
7 between Russia and NATO. That fact is indisputable.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.
9 Mr. Nice, continue.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. General, you told us you're not going to answer the question about
12 intercepts as between Western leaders, remembering that you also answered
13 about intercepting your own political leaders. You then selected one
14 intercept that you have noted about Mrs. Albright. Let's go back to the
15 original question. Are you going to change your answer about --
16 A. Let me say one thing. We were listening, eavesdropping on Hashim
17 Thaci, a terrorist. We were not listening to the conversations of
18 Mrs. Albright. This is essential.
19 Q. My question is are you now prepared to tell us - yes or no -
20 because we're at the stage of methodology --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice insinuated to General
24 Ivasov that we were listening to their own military -- sorry, political
25 leaders, whereas General Ivasov never said anything of the kind.
Page 33781
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think General Ivasov just clarified what he was
2 listening to.
3 Continue, Mr. Nice.
4 MR. NICE:
5 Q. Are you now prepared to tell us - yes or no - whether your raw
6 material included intercepts of conversations between Western leaders?
7 Yes or no, General.
8 A. The information about intercepts of conversations between Western
9 leaders are not available to me, and I have no comment. This was not
10 within my competence.
11 Q. For my money, that is not responsive to the question, but I'll
12 move on, I think.
13 You've spoken of other discussions you had with politicians as
14 grounding your final opinion. Do we have available notes or records of
15 these conversations that you had, please?
16 A. There are working notes of official nature. There are my reports
17 to the defence minister about the outcome of my meetings, but all that is
18 at the Defence Ministry, and it is within their purview. But I am naming
19 specific names and I'm quoting dates and I'm telling you what the
20 discussions were about.
21 Q. You see, what we want to know, or what the Judges may want to know
22 is how it is you formed this view of a pre-planned -- of a plan to destroy
23 the former Yugoslavia. Take us to your best bit of evidence. Tell us
24 what it is.
25 A. First, in 1993, a strategic concept of the US and the national
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1 military doctrine that I mentioned yesterday were endorsed. That is
2 practically a military statute, military constitution of a state. I'm not
3 quoting now, but it says that the entire territory of the planet is an
4 area of vital interest of the USA, and furthermore, the US will protect
5 those interests using military force.
6 Then in 1997, the Balkans were proclaimed to be an area of vital
7 interest to the US. Furthermore, starting with January 1998, the tone of
8 conversation in all negotiations has changed. I met with Mr. Slocum,
9 Mr. Warner -- I can name other names. And if we look at the Kosovo
10 situation which was a matter of general conversation in 1997, in 1998 two
11 main thrusts became crystal clear. One option: Either Milosevic will
12 accept the ultimatum and then we proceed one way; or second option, he
13 doesn't and then the military operation is inevitable.
14 On a different level, we observed a build-up of military activity,
15 an increase in the combat readiness of armed forces, and the observation
16 of the entire military complex indicated to us that preparations were
17 underway to unleash a war. In addition to that. We received information
18 from various sources that corroborated this conclusion.
19 Furthermore, this plan, this doctrine envisaged methods of
20 conducting psychological operations, including military warfare, and all
21 this is clear from those military documents that were endorsed by the US
22 and NATO.
23 In addition to that, there were many, many international
24 conferences discussing a wide variety of aspects. And I am not ruling out
25 the huge role played by operative information. I can draw your attention
Page 33784
1 to the 35th Munich conference in January --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think perhaps that is enough. Mr. Nice.
3 MR. NICE:
4 Q. General, from -- I asked you for your best evidence. I take it
5 this is. Now, this, the 1993 strategic concept of the US and the national
6 military document, no doubt you can provide these documents for us if we
7 want them, can we, or tell us where we can get them off a website?
8 A. Of course it's on the Internet. I don't know the exact website,
9 but these are open-source documents. The whole world has seen them.
10 Q. And are we to take it that if we read this document with an
11 ordinary intelligent, if we are, intelligent mind, we're going to read in
12 it a plan to take over the former -- to destroy the former Yugoslavia? Is
13 this what we're going to find? I just want to know.
14 A. If you take those documents as a manual for action and you look at
15 the way things developed around Kosovo, you will conclude, I think, that
16 everything developed exactly in the way described in those documents.
17 Q. So because we're not -- I should have asked you this as well.
18 I've asked you about intercepts, but I meant to ask you, does your opinion
19 relay -- rely in any way on written communications passing between Western
20 leaders of which you've had sight? Just yes or no. If so, tell us what
21 they are.
22 A. Would you please specify. What leaders do you mean? The
23 correspondence and communication between whom and whom?
24 Q. Well, it's your theory, and you've managed to weave in NATO and
25 all the Western world along with America, but let's focus on America.
Page 33785
1 Have you got any -- have you seen any correspondence coming from or going
2 to American leaders going to show this early plan to destroy the former
3 Yugoslavia?
4 A. No. No, I haven't. But even if I had seen such a thing, I would
5 not be able to tell you that here. It is a state secret.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... again. I see. So you
7 wouldn't trust the Judges with it.
8 A. I simply don't have the right to. If I did, I would be subject to
9 criminal prosecution either in my own country or in the US.
10 Q. Sometimes it's a bit difficult to ask this question because even
11 saying something in a negative is a bit wicked, but can you actually tell
12 the Judges that there was no such material and then we can move on? There
13 was no such material, no written material of the kind to support your
14 theory; correct?
15 A. Mr. Nice, I will quote to you from a published document. It is a
16 report of the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, speaking of the
17 military doctrine from 1993.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I was asking is this a document which you can
19 hand over to the Court, the one that you're --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not today. I can't do it today,
21 quite simply. But this is a published, open-source document. Somebody's
22 trying to catch me out in an untruth here, and -- will you allow me to
23 quote from this?
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: But, General, you said it's public. If it's
Page 33786
1 public, why can't it be handed over?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I physically don't have it. But
3 it's on the Internet. I can refer to a sentence pronounced by
4 Mr. Kissinger, published in the Newsweek magazine. I just don't have that
5 issue of the magazine with me.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are you reading from, then? What would you
7 be reading from? I thought you had some document in front of you from
8 which you were going to read.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While preparing for this hearing, I
10 simply noted down some excerpts and brought them with me, because this is
11 my first participation in a hearing. I thought that a quotation, a
12 reference, would suffice. I have numbers of orders and dates referring to
13 Yugoslavia and orders issued to the Pristina Corps. I have excerpts from
14 them, but I don't have the orders themselves. I can give you references
15 to them, but I don't have the documents as such. They were secret.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, in preparing this witness, either
17 you or your associates should have made it clear to him that those
18 documents might have been needed by the Court. Therefore, they should
19 have been made available. This goes to the management of the case.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I have no need to
21 prepare the cross-examination by Mr. Nice.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I wasn't speaking about the -- I'm not speaking
23 about the cross-examination. I'm speaking about the preparation of your
24 own case. It's your preparation of your case that's being called into
25 question now, and that is leading to a waste of the Court's time.
Page 33787
1 Mr. Nice.
2 MR. NICE: The -- as far as I'm concerned, if he's reading a
3 narration --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.
5 MR. NICE: Thank you. If he wishes to read from what he's written
6 down from an open-source document, then providing that he or the accused,
7 and it's on the accused's shoulders to do this, produces a document in due
8 course, I don't mind him telling us what it is now.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead, General. Let us hear what you
10 noted.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I just spoke about a moment
12 ago, about the military doctrine. "The US bear global responsibility for
13 everything going on in the world." The question arises in my head: Why
14 the US? Why not the UN? Why not some international organisation? "The
15 US bears global responsibility in all areas of the world that need
16 protecting by military force," and so on.
17 So the US sets objectives, in 1997, proclaiming the Balkans an
18 area of vital interest to the US and go on to take specific decisions. I
19 can read out from a document concerning Rambouillet. Henry Kissinger,
20 Newsweek magazine, May 1999. He says: "New world disorder. The first
21 decision was to send 30.000 troops to Yugoslavia, a country that was not
22 in war with NATO. Second decision envisaged the use of the Serbian
23 refusal of the ultimatum, which was predictable, as a pretext for bombing.
24 Furthermore, despite common belief in Rambouillet, there were no
25 negotiations, there was an ultimatum." That was said by Henry Kissinger,
Page 33788
1 published in Newsweek magazine in May 1999.
2 And furthermore, he says that "The US administration consciously
3 violated its commitment to the UN Charter and international procedures."
4 Was that sufficient? I can continue quoting. I can quote from
5 orders.
6 MR. NICE:
7 Q. I'm asking you for your best evidence, and it's very helpful.
8 You've set -- you've told us about something in 1997, and your general
9 concern that the United States bears global responsibility for everything
10 in the world. And then we go back to your 1993 strategic concept, and the
11 national military doctrine. And I just wanted to ask you one question
12 about that.
13 You told us yesterday that the relevant psychological campaign
14 document was FM33-5, didn't you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Perhaps you would like to tell us what year that was published in.
17 A. This document was published somewhat earlier. I will try to find
18 this information now.
19 Q. Would 1962 be about right?
20 A. However, this is an official document of the US army --
21 Q. General Ivasov --
22 A. -- and this document is updated on a yearly basis.
23 Q. Yes, but nevertheless, the version you were referring to was the
24 1962 version. And this may all show that the United States has been
25 planning the destruction of the former Yugoslavia for three or four
Page 33789
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Page 33790
1 decades, but I want to know.
2 The 1962 doctrine, the 1993 strategic concept, the 1997
3 proclamation that you tell us about, and the Newsweek interview with
4 Mr. Kissinger, now, this is your best evidence. Is there anything else
5 you would like to rely on for proof of the plan to destroy the former
6 Yugoslavia?
7 A. Mr. Nice --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just want to tell you,
11 Mr. Robinson, that this distortion of somebody's evidence is below any
12 human dignity. What Mr. Nice is doing is entirely impermissible with
13 respect to any witness.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have stopped you. What he's doing is entirely
15 proper. He's testing evidence given in examination-in-chief, and it is
16 open to him to do that. That is an ordinary process in this Tribunal.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 MR. NICE:
19 Q. General, I'd like your assistance with some matters that relate
20 specifically to this trial. Do you have any evidence going to show the
21 Americans in league with Mr. Kucan? Kucan. See, the accused has really
22 accused Mr. Kucan as leading to the break-up of the former Yugoslavia, and
23 I'm wondering if you have any information that he did this at the
24 Americans' behest?
25 A. Mr. Nice, first of all let me answer your previous question
Page 33791
1 concerning FM33-5 document. All documents of the army tend to have
2 long-term nature. However, on a yearly basis, they are amended, meaning
3 that the basis remains unchanged, and every year or every other year
4 certain amendments are made. This is a tradition in every army.
5 As for your other question, I know nothing about it.
6 Q. And help us, please, because there's a sort of progression in the
7 break-up of the former Yugoslavia. Did you have any evidence going to
8 show that the United States of America was in league with the president of
9 Croatia, leading to him taking his country away from the former
10 Yugoslavia?
11 A. Mr. Nice, I'm giving evidence on issues concerning which I have
12 knowledge. Yesterday, I said that I would be testifying about the Kosovo
13 tragedy. If you have any questions concerning Kosovo, then I will give
14 you an answer.
15 The head of the terrorist organisation, for example, Thaci and
16 Ceku not only were not arrested but were invited to all international
17 conferences where they were a negotiating side. It is a rule that
18 terrorists are not allowed to negotiate.
19 Q. General, you were asked quite specifically by this accused
20 questions about the role of the United States and the plan to destroy the
21 former Yugoslavia, and I'm testing that evidence. It may be you want to
22 withdraw your evidence. If you do, we will move on. Or do you still
23 maintain that the United States had a plan going back to the mid or early
24 1990s to destroy the former Yugoslavia? Do you still maintain that?
25 A. I did not state in the courtroom that the United States had in the
Page 33792
1 mid-1990s a plan to destroy the entire Yugoslavia. What I said was that
2 there was a plan on the break-up of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
3 which remained after the major break-up, and my evidence pertained to
4 Kosovo. I can confirm that. I have convictions, and I have evidence to
5 prove that. I just quoted the words of a prominent US statesman, Henry
6 Kissinger.
7 Q. Incidentally, on one matter of detail, I notice the accused
8 yesterday said in the course of an exchange with the Trial Chamber that it
9 was because you knew such information that you weren't allowed to leave
10 Russia for a long time. It's on page 18. Was the accused right in saying
11 that, that you were not allowed to leave Russia because you held such
12 secure information?
13 A. Yes, Mr. Nice. In accordance with the Russian law, a person in
14 possession of highly confidential information is not allowed to travel
15 abroad for up to five years. I left my office in June of 2001, and it
16 wasn't until August, and in relation to my involvement with this trial,
17 was I issued a passport to travel abroad. So since June of 2001, I never
18 travelled abroad. I have never travelled abroad.
19 Q. And all of the sensitive information that kept you at home or kept
20 you in Russia specifically related to the subject matter of this trial or
21 was it sensitive information generally?
22 A. I dealt not only with Kosovo. I visited 57 countries of the world
23 where I took part in negotiations and met with presidents, ministers of
24 defence, ministers of foreign affairs, and I was in possession of a huge
25 amount of information. In addition to that, I had access to highly
Page 33793
1 confidential information gathered by our intelligence services.
2 In addition to that, I participated in meetings, consultations
3 with the president, with high government officials within the Ministry of
4 Defence, and as a rule, such information is considered classified. This
5 is a rule that applies to all countries. And there are very strict rules
6 as to who is allowed to make such information public. This rule applies
7 in all democratic countries.
8 Q. Very well. Let's move on, now. Your -- it wasn't quite clear
9 yesterday; your detailed dealings with the former Yugoslavia start at what
10 date?
11 A. I became involved in October of 1996. However, as many things
12 were quite new to me, I did not strictly focus on Bosnian conflict and the
13 Dayton Agreement. I can even tell you that my subordinates were
14 representatives in NATO, Colonel General Zavarski [phoen], for example,
15 and even our generals served as deputies of the Supreme Commander of NATO
16 forces in Europe; General Clark. My subordinate was Mr. Clark's deputy
17 dealing with the Dayton agreement. And from there, we received
18 information that back in January 1998, there were arrows on the maps on
19 General Clark's table, pointing towards Kosovo. This is an information as
20 well.
21 Q. Just try and deal with things, broadly speaking, chronologically.
22 You obviously then know no detail. You weren't involved in the detail of
23 what happened in 1993 -- 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, or 1995, were you?
24 A. Yes. I did not take direct participation in those events, but in
25 my capacity, my official capacity and based on various investigative work,
Page 33794
1 I became aware of such information. However, I cannot give evidence
2 concerning that. I can only rely on public information. I did not take
3 part in those events.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... but I'm just going to seek
5 your guidance on this: You will know, of course -- it's back to this --
6 it's back to this issue, General, if how governments and military try and
7 eavesdrop on each other all the time.
8 The Russian and the Serbian intelligence services formed very
9 close liaison in about 1993, didn't they?
10 A. I was referring to the period starting in October 1996, but even
11 better, let us start from January 1997.
12 Q. I know that's your period of knowledge, but -- of detailed
13 knowledge, to which I'm going to come, but I'm just checking through you,
14 because I'm sure you know this. As a matter of fact, the Russian and
15 Serbian intelligence and counter-intelligence services, very closely
16 connected as at about 1993 with the man Stanisic playing a role, for
17 example.
18 A. I object to this type of qualification. I cannot confirm that.
19 What I spoke about was the cooperation between Russian and Yugoslav
20 special services only pertaining to combat with terrorist organisations,
21 which is something that the whole world is dealing with nowadays,
22 including us. The United States, NATO, and we cooperate concerning that
23 issue, a fight against terrorism. I can confirm that, that we had very
24 close cooperation, very fruitful cooperation on that issue.
25 Q. The way governments all listen in on each other, just help us with
Page 33795
1 this because we're very concerned about Srebrenica. Did you carry out
2 intercepts of Yugoslavia, Belgrade, and of this accused, you Russians?
3 Did you?
4 A. Mr. Nice, I knew much. However, in every country, not all highly
5 placed officials have access to all of the information. Not even
6 President knows everything. Therefore, to claim that I was involved in
7 this is something that I refuse to do. I don't think that this is the key
8 point for this evidence, whether I as witness took part in intercepting
9 conversations. I don't think that any state would disclose such
10 information.
11 Q. I'm sorry, I --
12 JUDGE KWON: Can I clarify this: General, before you came to The
13 Hague, I understand that you had got permission from your government, in
14 one way or another, to give evidence in relation to the Kosovo indictment.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.
16 JUDGE KWON: And not in relation to Bosnian and Croatian
17 indictment.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was not defined or ordered by
19 the government. I myself clarified that I would testify only about the
20 period and events that I am well familiar with. This was not prescribed
21 by my government. However, I couldn't have envisaged the questions put by
22 Mr. Nice. This kind of information is held by secret services. Nobody
23 gave me permission to disclose that, but I didn't even ask for such
24 permission, because I did not expect such questions.
25 JUDGE KWON: So what you are suggesting that you are not in a
Page 33796
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Page 33797
1 position to answer any question in relation to Bosnian and Croatian
2 indictment?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know, Your Honour, I can only
4 speak in general terms. I can speak of the implementation of the Dayton
5 agreement because there was a Russian brigade deployed there. And also in
6 Mons, in Shape [phoen], in NATO we had our representative. So this is
7 something that I can discuss. However, I did not take part in Dayton
8 negotiations and I have little information concerning that.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had meetings with the leaders of
11 the Republic of Serbia. I visited that region. However, the questions
12 put to me by Mr. Nice is not something that I can tell you about, about
13 what was going on in Srebrenica region. I can't answer that.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Not Republic of
15 Serbia but Republika Srpska.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 MR. NICE:
18 Q. Indeed, General, I certainly wasn't going to ask you for any
19 detail but as you will appreciate from my very first observation to you
20 today the Prosecution in this case is the servant and supporter of no
21 one. We are trying to find out the truth, and since you hold the office
22 you do, I just wanted to know if, in Russia, there is likely to be
23 material in the form of intercepted conversations of Belgrade and this
24 accused that may help us. I suspect you could answer. Do they hold such
25 material?
Page 33798
1 A. Mr. Nice, I hope that your goal is to seek objective truth.
2 However, to this day, we have still not broken codes from the Second World
3 War. And for some reason, you focus your efforts on attempts to disclose
4 the secrets of Russian secret service and their technical services. This
5 is the topmost secret in every country. Great Britain has not yet
6 disclosed methods and mechanisms used to break German codes during World
7 War II despite the fact that the Nuremberg trials have been concluded.
8 And I'm really surprised that you're focusing on this issue, the issue of
9 intercepts. I have a lot of information from other sources. This is not
10 the main issue here.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I think, General, the problem may be that you've
12 chosen to rely on some material from intercepts in relation to Kosovo and
13 that therefore the issue of intercepts has opened up as an issue in the
14 trial.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Let me
16 clarify once again that wiretapping of terrorists is a legal activity in
17 any state, and what was intercepted while wiretapping the conversations of
18 terrorists is something that I can tell you about, the bit that is known
19 to me.
20 MR. NICE:
21 Q. Now, General, I'm going to move on from that, because --
22 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. I don't know if I've interrupted Your
23 Honour.
24 Q. I'm going to move on now to the period of your particular
25 knowledge and seek your assistance.
Page 33799
1 Listening to your evidence yesterday provided a clear picture, but
2 correct me if I've got it wrong, of KLA terrorists being resisted by a
3 totally lawful and well-behaved Serbian government. Would that be about
4 right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I wonder if you'd help us, please, with some comments on workings
7 of the Contact Group. Now, you know about the Contact Group, don't you?
8 A. Yes, I do know.
9 Q. Because, just to remind the Court, the Contact Group had a Russian
10 representative on it; correct?
11 A. Yes. However, the Contact Group was not authorised by the UN
12 Security Council or any other international legal body. This was
13 something like a voluntary international conference, and Russia takes part
14 in numerous international conferences.
15 Q. May we take it that the sort of information available to you,
16 General, would have been equally available to your representative on the
17 Contact Group?
18 A. I'm not sure of that. I did not take part in the meetings of the
19 Contact Group. This is something that the services within the Ministry of
20 Foreign Affairs of Russia were involved in. I simply analysed documents
21 that were adopted within the Contact Group and adopted only as
22 recommendations.
23 MR. NICE: Would Your Honours just give me one minute.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While you are looking for that, I
Page 33800
1 can tell you, Mr. Nice, that on the 9th of March, 1998, in London, the
2 Contact Group, I'm quoting: "Acknowledged the presence of terrorist
3 structures in Kosovo, condemned terrorism and separatism, condemned upon
4 the proposal of Russia the forces funding training and arming terrorist
5 groups." This statement was issued on the 9th of March, 1998.
6 Q. Well, General --
7 A. I quoted from the document.
8 Q. -- I'm so grateful because you've obviously written that down in
9 advance of coming here in order that you could read it out, and of course
10 we're going to find that, because from time to time Russia made separate
11 decisions within the Contact Group.
12 Now, you came with that particular quotation. I'll ask --
13 A. I don't know about independent decisions or separate decisions
14 taken by Russia within the Contact Group. I would ask you to refrain from
15 such claims pertaining to Russia.
16 MR. NICE: Would the Chamber be good enough to take a collection
17 of documents, which will be a new exhibit, available for distribution with
18 an index on the front. We probably can display them on the overhead
19 projector. I'm going to read some, but I hope a limited number of these,
20 and the Chamber will, I imagine, be pleased to know that I'm sure I can
21 conclude my examination of this witness today and it won't be necessary
22 for him to come back and I shan't be asking for him to bring any documents
23 in light of the answers he's already given.
24 Q. If we -- now, General, I'm sorry that this isn't translated into
25 Russian, but I wasn't to know what you were going to be going to say in
Page 33801
1 evidence when you came. And if the usher would be good enough, we'll go
2 through the materials and I'll describe them to you. And if the usher
3 would press the appropriate screen on the television. It's already done.
4 You can either look at the document, which will be in English on
5 your left, or you can view it on the screen which will be in front of you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think it is impermissible to give
9 to the witness documents in a language he doesn't understand. He should
10 be able to read the document, and this is not how a witness should be
11 treated.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's going to be placed on the ELMO and will be
13 translated.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So what if it's on the ELMO? The
15 document cannot be translated in its entirety. There are 50 pages here.
16 And bearing in mind the manipulations of Mr. Nice and taking out words out
17 of context --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not a permissible comment, Mr. Milosevic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, it is not appropriate
20 to give to the witness documents in a language he doesn't understand.
21 That should be completely clear to you. This is impermissible.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, how much of this document are you going
23 to --
24 MR. NICE: There are several passages that I wish to read, but
25 I'll read them generously. It is simply impossible, if we have speakers
Page 33802
1 of languages other than the languages of the institution to forecast in
2 advance and find the resources to prepare documents like this not knowing
3 what the accused will say.
4 I should respectfully remind the accused through the Court that
5 all the documents he produced through the previous witness were provided
6 in the Russian language, without any translated version for us. Not that
7 I rely on that as -- in itself as a justification for what I'm doing.
8 What I'm doing is clearly the best and appropriate policy under the
9 Statute and regulations which requires documents to be in the language of
10 the institution.
11 I'm glad to have made the accused laugh.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Naturally. Naturally. The Russian
13 language is an official language of the United Nations, and you have no
14 interpreters for Russian.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And even in the NATO.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice and the witness, we are going to take an
17 adjournment now, 20 minutes.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we have noted the objection that
21 you have made to this document being put to the witness without it being
22 translated in his language. However, as indicated by Mr. Nice, he only
23 intends to put particular passages from the document to the witness.
24 Those will be translated by the interpreter. If the witness finds that
25 he's at a disadvantage, then it is a matter for him to bring that to the
Page 33803
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Page 33804
1 attention of the Chamber.
2 Mr. Nice.
3 MR. NICE:
4 Q. General, incidentally, I'm told by the interpreters that because
5 of the particular circumstances of interpretation, I'm going to have to
6 speak more loudly or closer to the microphone. So if I appear to be
7 shouting, it's not a reflection of any attitude, it's merely an
8 administrative necessity. So I hope you won't be offended.
9 Your previous -- thank you. Your previous observation about the
10 role of the Contact Group, I must respectfully suggest, is incorrect. For
11 example, in his report to the Security Council of the 30th of April of
12 1998, a document which, if is isn't an exhibit I will have copied and
13 provided, the Secretary-General said: "I have had to rely on information
14 and assessments provided by the Contact Group, OSCE and the European
15 Union, as foreseen in paragraph 16 of Security Council Resolution 1160."
16 So, General, the Contact Group served an important and formal
17 function for the Secretary-General and the United Nations. Do you accept
18 that?
19 A. I agree insofar as the Contact Group sometimes made good
20 conclusions for the benefit of the General-Secretary and provided
21 recommendations.
22 Q. And it was on the basis of that report, again a document if not
23 already an exhibit I'll produce it, on the basis of that report that
24 United Nations Resolution 1199 was made, which led to the October
25 agreements, and do you accept, General, that within that Resolution the
Page 33805
1 United Nations acknowledged gratefully statements of the foreign ministers
2 made by France, Germany, Italy, and the Russian Federation as well as the
3 United Kingdom, USA, and other countries?
4 A. I would be grateful if you could specify, what statements do you
5 have in mind, and what is the agreement you are referring to?
6 Q. This is Resolution 1199, which led to the October agreements with
7 which the KVM was concerned to verify. I do not have the Russian
8 statement, but this Resolution included within it gratitude for a
9 statement from the Russian Federation.
10 A. Yes. I acknowledge the Contact Group with respect. However, the
11 Security Council took into account -- took into account its
12 recommendations and opinion but not only, not only the opinion of the
13 Contact Group. If you speak about the October agreement, do you mean the
14 Holbrooke-Milosevic agreement of October 10?
15 Q. Can we now move to the collection of documents from the Contact
16 Group.
17 MR. NICE: And if the usher would display them, although I shall
18 ask him, so that people can see what we have, to display them in sequence
19 rapidly, we will stop at only a limited number.
20 Q. General Ivasov, the documents we have, so you can know what is
21 going to the Judges, is a statement on Kosovo of the Contact Group foreign
22 ministers dated the 24th of September, 1997.
23 Next page is blank. The following page is a statement on Kosovo
24 of the 25th of February, 1998, and that's available. The following page
25 is blank.
Page 33806
1 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, I would be grateful if you
3 would bear in mind that I do not know the English language. I speak
4 German, by the way, so I cannot comment on these documents.
5 MR. NICE:
6 Q. I seek no comment on the ones I've mentioned. It's just simply
7 for completeness, revealing what we have.
8 There is then a Security Council note or letter of the 12th of
9 March, 1998. Just display that. And immediately following that, we have
10 the letter, I think, or the annex to which you referred. So the next page
11 is headed "Annex," and it refers to a meeting in London on the 9th of
12 March of 1998, and I'm going to read several paragraphs from it at a
13 speed, General, that I hope will be acceptable to the interpreters and to
14 you.
15 Three lines down on paragraph number 2 reads as follows -- and any
16 interpreter who finds I'm going too fast, please wave at me or something.
17 "We are dismayed that in the period since September, rather than
18 taking steps to reduce tension or to enter without pre-conditions into
19 dialogue towards a political solution, the Belgrade authorities have
20 applied repressive measures in Kosovo. We note with particular concern
21 the recent violence in Kosovo, resulting in at least 80 fatalities, and
22 condemn the use of excessive force by Serbian police against civilians,
23 and against peaceful demonstrators in Pristina on the 2nd of March.
24 "Our condemnation of the actions of the Serbian police should not
25 in any way be mistaken for an endorsement of terrorism. Our position on
Page 33807
1 this is clear: We wholly condemn terrorist actions by the Kosovo
2 Liberation Army or any other group or individual. Those in the Kosovo
3 Albanian community who speak for the different political constituencies
4 should make it clear that they, too, abhor terrorism. We insist,
5 likewise, that those outside the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia who are
6 supplying finance, arms, or training for terrorist activity in Kosovo
7 should immediately cease doing so.
8 "We condemn the large-scale police actions of the last 10 days
9 that further inflamed an already volatile situation. The violent
10 repression of non-violent expression of political views is completely
11 indefensible. We call upon the authorities in Belgrade to invite
12 independent forensic experts to investigate the very serious allegations
13 of extrajudicial killings. If these accusations are borne out, we expect
14 the authorities of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to prosecute and
15 punish those responsible."
16 I omit paragraph 5. Paragraph 6: "In the light of the deplorable
17 violence in Kosovo, we feel compelled to take steps to demonstrate to the
18 authorities in Belgrade that they cannot defy international standards
19 without facing severe consequences."
20 Over the page, please. At the top: "Against that background, the
21 Contact Group requests a mission to Kosovo by the United Nations High
22 Commissioner for Human Rights, urges the Office of the Prosecutor of the
23 International Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia to begin gathering
24 information related to the violence in Kosovo that may fall within its
25 jurisdiction."
Page 33808
1 And then halfway down the page: "Will continue vigorously to
2 support the efforts of Sant 'Egidio to secure implementation of the
3 Education agreement ..."
4 Over the page, please, to page 4. And I said I would draw these
5 passages to your attention, or at least some of them. Towards the bottom
6 of the page: "The Contact Group notes that the Russian Federation cannot
7 support measures (c) and (d) above," which we can see set out, "but if
8 there is no progress towards the steps taken -- the steps called for by
9 the Contact Group, the Russian Federation will then be willing to discuss
10 all the above measures.
11 "We call upon President Milosevic to take rapid and effective
12 steps to stop the violence and engage in a commitment to find a political
13 solution to the issue of Kosovo through dialogue. Specifically, he should
14 within 10 days:
15 "Withdraw the Special Police Units and cease action by security
16 forces affecting the civilian population;
17 "Allow access to Kosovo for the Red Cross and other humanitarian
18 organisations as well as by representatives of the Contact Group and other
19 embassies;
20 "Commit himself publicly to begin a process of dialogue, along
21 the lines of paragraph 10, with the leadership of the Kosovo Albanian
22 community;
23 "Cooperate in a constructive manner with the Contact Group in the
24 implementation of the actions specified in paragraph 6 above which require
25 urgent action by the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."
Page 33809
1 Over the page and, Your Honours, this is the only one that I'm
2 going to read at this length.
3 "If President Milosevic --" Top of the page, please. "If
4 President Milosevic takes these steps, we will immediately reconsider the
5 measures we have now adopted. If he fails to take these steps, and
6 repression continues in Kosovo, the Contact Group will move to further
7 international measures and specifically to pursue a freeze on the funds
8 held abroad by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Serbian
9 governments."
10 Paragraph 8: "Belgrade's own actions have seriously set back the
11 process of normalisation of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia's relations
12 with the international community. Unless the Federal Republic of
13 Yugoslavia takes steps to resolve the serious political and human rights
14 issues in Kosovo, there is no prospect of any improvement in its
15 international standing. On the other hand, the concrete proposals to
16 resolve the serious political and human rights issues in Kosovo will
17 improve the international position of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
18 and prospects for normalisation of its international relationships and
19 full rehabilitation in international institutions."
20 Paragraph 10, finally: "The way to defeat terrorism in Kosovo is
21 for Belgrade to offer the Kosovo Albanian community a genuine political
22 process. The authorities in Belgrade and the leadership of the Kosovo
23 Albanian community must assume their responsibility to enter without
24 pre-conditions into a meaningful dialogue on political status issues. The
25 Contact Group stands ready to facilitate such a dialogue."
Page 33810
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Page 33811
1 Now, General, you, I think, came to court with a passage from this
2 noted that dealt simply with the use of the term "terrorism." Having
3 heard the majority of the text read to you, and bearing in mind that you
4 acknowledged that Russia's member of the Contact Group had access to the
5 same material that you had, would you like to accept that this document by
6 the Contact Group is a fair representation of what was happening on the
7 ground?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My objection is this: The question
11 was not put in an appropriate manner, because it was precisely in sub-item
12 (c) that says -- (c) and (d), rather, that repressive actions of security
13 forces of Yugoslavia in Kosovo are mentioned. And it says further below
14 that the Contact Group notes that the Russian Federation cannot support
15 measures (c) and (d).
16 Therefore, the Russian Federation did not actually support this
17 qualification about repressive measures, because if you remember,
18 gentlemen, speaking of those 80 fatalities, it was the clash in Prekaze,
19 where a terrorist group headed by Adem Jashari was liquidated after
20 several days of shooting with the police --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'll ask Mr. Nice to reply, but
22 (c) and (d) deals with denial of visas and a moratorium and the question
23 that he asked was whether the witness was prepared to accept that the
24 document was a fair representation of what was happening on the ground.
25 That is, the activities on the ground. So I don't see any relationship
Page 33812
1 between that and the fact that Russia did not accept sub-item (c) and (d).
2 The witness should answer if he can.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that this
4 document was to a great extent a result of compromise amongst various
5 parties, and the fact that Russia did not agree to two subparagraphs
6 involving accusations or conclusions does not mean that it was not a valid
7 document. But it is a fact that the Russian Federation, the Ministry of
8 Defence, and myself welcomed any attempt by any political structure to
9 find a peaceful settlement. And specifically, a peaceful settlement of
10 the Kosovo problem.
11 I do support this document.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, I'm interrupting you.
13 Mr. Nice, rephrase your question and clarify precisely what you
14 mean by "activities on the ground."
15 MR. NICE: Certainly. But I'm grateful to the witness for his
16 last answer in any event.
17 Q. But, General Ivasov, as I say, you brought to us an extract that
18 referred simply to terrorist activity, which I think we can see in
19 paragraph 3 of this annex. I've read out a general account of tensions,
20 of condemnation of terrorism, of condemnation of large-scale police
21 actions over the last ten days, of deplorable violence in Kosovo, and so
22 on, and I'm going to suggest to you that the Contact Group, on all the
23 best available information, had set out in an evenhanded way the situation
24 on the ground. Do you disagree with that or do you accept that that is
25 what they had done?
Page 33813
1 A. Well, first of all, the Contact Group was not an officially
2 established body, and its conclusions were sometimes subjective.
3 Second, you read out the paragraphs that were agreed upon.
4 However, the proposals of the Russian delegate, one of which was not to
5 give visas to KLA leaders, to arrest terrorists upon arrival to Western
6 capitals, as well as a number of other proposals, were not accepted and
7 are not reflected, therefore, in this document.
8 Then, Mr. Nice, you speak very confidently about certain matters
9 such as repression, et cetera. And I'm telling you once again that Russia
10 welcomed and proposed the complex of measures for political settlement,
11 and it did, therefore, take part in Contact Group -- in the Contact Group
12 and other bodies. But on a parallel track to this political process --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think you have answered the question.
14 Just pay attention to the question. The question was whether you agree
15 that the Contact Group had set out in an evenhanded way the situation on
16 the ground relating to the activities that took place on the ground, and
17 you're asked to say whether you disagreed with that or whether you accept
18 it.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not accept it completely,
20 because the Contact Group was not in a position to give an objective
21 evaluation. It issued agreed-upon recommendations. There were points on
22 which there was no agreement and Russian proposals that were not included.
23 So to agree with this document in entirety is something that I cannot do.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have the answer now, Mr. Nice.
25 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.
Page 33814
1 JUDGE KWON: General, it is not true that Russian delegate agreed
2 upon the items on (a) and (b); i.e., a comprehensive arms embargo and
3 refusal to supply equipment to Yugoslavia?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The Russian delegate did agree
5 to these paragraphs. My personal opinion was somewhat different, but it
6 was not taken into account.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 MR. NICE: I'll move on. If the usher could help, please.
9 Q. The next document, which we won't linger on, is the letter of the
10 27th of March.
11 The following page, just for display, is the annex. Perhaps I can
12 just look at this very briefly, or couple of passages on this.
13 We see under paragraph 2, General Ivasov, that under this annex of
14 the meeting of the 25th of March of 1998, it's recorded that: "In London,
15 the group called upon President Milosevic to take rapid and effective
16 steps to end the violence in Kosovo and commit himself to a political
17 solution through unconditional dialogue." And that the group adopted a
18 plan to advance these goals.
19 And at paragraph 5 it recorded that: "Since our meeting in London
20 there has been progress in some areas of concern, notably some movement in
21 Belgrade's position on dialogue on a range of issues, including the
22 autonomy of Kosovo and the conclusions of the long-overdue agreement on
23 implementation of the education accord."
24 If you would be good enough, Usher, to take us to the next page.
25 Just taking, I hope, appropriate selections from a long document.
Page 33815
1 Paragraph 9 sets out how: "Unless the Federal Republic of
2 Yugoslavia takes steps to resolve the serious political and human rights
3 issues in Kosovo, there is no prospect of any improvement in its
4 international standing."
5 Going down to paragraph 10. The group reaffirmed its "Strong
6 opposition to all terrorist" -- my emphasis -- "to terrorist actions.
7 Violence does not contribute to the search for a solution in Kosovo. This
8 applies equally to Serbian police and Kosovar Albanian extremists."
9 Paragraph 10 welcomes Dr. Rugova's clear commitment to
10 non-violence and urges others to follow that leadership. It goes on to
11 say: "Belgrade authorities cannot, however, justify their repression and
12 violence in Kosovo in the name of anti-terrorist activities. We repeat
13 that the way to combat terrorism is for Belgrade to offer the Kosovar
14 Albanian community a genuine political process."
15 And at paragraph 13 the group explains its fundamental position as
16 remaining the same. "We support neither independence nor the maintenance
17 of the status quo as the end result of negotiations between Belgrade
18 authorities and the Kosovo Albanian leadership on the status of Kosovo."
19 So I realise to save time I've only read some extracts, but do you
20 have any challenge to the passages I've read out of that particular
21 document?
22 A. I support, and I did participate in the drafting of several
23 paragraphs of this document, but I wish to emphasise once again, the
24 Russian representative, just as all the others, were unofficial
25 participants. However, I do not support the conclusions referring to
Page 33816
1 repression and violence as applied to terrorists. I have a different
2 position, and I have stated it many times, including to the readership of
3 Yugoslavia. It was the position of the defence ministry. I said it was
4 necessary to be more active in making arrests and neutralising the leaders
5 of terrorist organisations in order to minimise casualties among the
6 civilian population.
7 In other words, I agree with some of the conclusions and don't
8 agree with the others. But you have to bear in mind that the Russian
9 representative was not an official representative, just as the Contact
10 Group was not an official body itself.
11 Q. I think you've made that point several times.
12 A. It was very useful, though, in reaching a peaceful settlement.
13 Q. And I --
14 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Nice. For the benefit of the
15 transcript, I would like to check whether the witness had really said that
16 he supported and he did participate in the drafting of several paragraphs
17 of this document. Did you say so? You did participate in the drafting of
18 several paragraphs of this document or you said you did not?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did participate as an expert, as
20 an expert. And I made suggestions only on the issue of building up
21 measures of political solution. That was my position and the position
22 held by the Russian defence ministry.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 MR. NICE:
25 Q. Thank you. So that your colleague and all those on the Contact
Page 33817
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Page 33818
1 Group had the real benefit of your input, General, didn't they?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Next page, please, is the letter of the 30th of April.
4 And one passage from -- if you could just display that. It's the letter
5 sending -- and then we see the following page, the annex. There's only
6 one paragraph for comment. Paragraph 3:
7 "The Contact Group condemns the increase in violence in recent
8 days in Kosovo. In particular, the excessive use of force by the Yugoslav
9 army and the proliferation of arms in the territory. The Contact Group
10 absolutely rejects terrorism as a means of bringing about political
11 change, as well as all other violence to suppress political dissent. The
12 Contact Group calls upon political leaders in the Federal Republic of
13 Yugoslavia and in the countries of the region to exercise maximum
14 restraint, full respect for human rights, and to prevent the introduction
15 of arms and of armed groups from outside, and to condemn terrorism."
16 General Ivasov, an entirely fair position for the Contact Group to
17 have taken?
18 A. I cannot comment on the entire document because I don't have it in
19 front of me, but as for condemning terrorism and putting an end to the
20 arms supply and the increasing of terrorist activity, yes, those segments
21 I do support. But as for the use of excessive force, this is phrased in
22 general terms.
23 I said yesterday, and I can confirm today that Russia and its
24 military delegations discussed in detail with their Yugoslav counterparts
25 the use of military force in fight with terrorists. I can tell you that I
Page 33819
1 saw a number of orders limiting the activity of military troops, and I can
2 give you the numbers of those orders.
3 Within the military, there is military prosecutor's office and
4 military court. So those who violate military law and disobey orders can
5 be prosecuted. Such courts existed, and there were trials against
6 violators, and I can tell you that I'm sure that law was applied in cases
7 where excessive force was used.
8 Q. You're repeating what you told us yesterday, and of course if
9 there is going to be evidence of these prosecutions we'll see it in due
10 course, but perhaps you'd just help us with this: Within this period,
11 1998, were you yourself in Kosovo at all at any time?
12 A. During what period of time?
13 Q. 1998.
14 A. In 1998, no, I was not in Kosovo. My officers were there, the
15 officers who reported back to me.
16 Q. Next letter, please, Usher, is the 24th of June of 1998. And then
17 the annex which follows it. If we could display that.
18 The annex at 3 is what I will read, and possibly paragraph 6.
19 From the 12th of June meeting reads as follows: "Security forces have
20 again intervened indiscriminately, causing many civilian casualties and
21 forcing tens of thousands of inhabitants to flee their homes. Ministers
22 condemned Belgrade's massive and disproportionate use of force, which has
23 resulted in widespread destruction and the deliberate displacement of
24 large numbers of people. They also condemned the failure by Belgrade to
25 take concrete steps to reduce tensions. Ministers therefore decided to
Page 33820
1 put the authorities in Belgrade a set of essential points on which they
2 required immediate action to prevent any further deterioration in the
3 situation. These cover concrete measures:" and then set out:
4 "To cease all actions by the security forces affecting the
5 civilian population and order the withdrawal of security units used for
6 civilian repression;
7 "To enable effective and continuous international monitoring in
8 Kosovo and allow unimpeded access for monitors;
9 "To facilitate an agreement with the office of the United Nations
10 High Commissioner for Refugees and the Red Cross the full return to their
11 homes of refugees and displaced persons and to allow free and unimpeded
12 access for humanitarian organisations and supplies to Kosovo;
13 "To make rapid progress in the dialogue with Kosovo Albanian
14 leadership."
15 And if the usher would be good enough to take us to the following
16 page. That's paragraph 6 and 7. "Ministers expect that Belgrade will
17 take the steps set out in paragraph 3 above immediately. They welcomed
18 the invitation by President Yeltsin to President Milosevic to a meeting on
19 16th of June. They stressed the importance to President Milosevic taking
20 advantage of that meeting to announce progress on the above steps and to
21 commit Belgrade to their -- to their implementation in full. If the steps
22 set out in paragraph 3 are not taken without delay, there will be moves to
23 adopt further measures to halt the violence and protect the civilian
24 population, including those that may require the authorisation of a
25 Security Council resolution."
Page 33821
1 Paragraph 7: "In the meantime, ministers also urged the
2 International Criminal Tribunal to undertake investigation, agreed to give
3 active support to UNHCR, and undertook efforts to assist neighbouring
4 countries to improve their security."
5 General, this meeting of the Contact Group is acting on the basis
6 of information including that which came from you and your offices. Is
7 there any reason to doubt the depiction it gives of the position in
8 Kosovo?
9 A. Our representatives within the Contact Group received this
10 information and, to a certain extent, passed it on. However, we closely
11 followed how the Yugoslav side was implementing the recommendation, and I
12 will read you two brief lines: "The order of the commander of the
13 Pristina Corps, number 45520. Ensure a high level of responsibility of
14 all servicemen of the Yugoslav army with respect to issued orders. All
15 violators to face action and prosecution." A directive of the General
16 Staff was issued signed by General Ojdanic about the measures of
17 servicemen in the territory where there was terrorist activity. Where it
18 is stated that "killing the persons who were imprisoned, wounding them,
19 was prohibited without previous court order."
20 This also refers to civilian population --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm stopping you. I'm stopping you, General.
22 There seems to be a pattern in your answers which is to provide
23 information which does not relate to the question that was asked. It's
24 perhaps a lawyer-like practice, and I don't say so in a disparaging
25 manner, being a lawyer myself, but please attend to the specific question
Page 33822
1 asked.
2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm grateful for that. Normally I apply
3 my new rule, which is not try, try and try again, but try, try, and give
4 up. I think this time I'll move on after my first attempt because we've
5 got quite a lot of material to cover.
6 If the usher would take us to the next letter, which is the letter
7 of the 6th of July. And --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes. Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the question was not
10 put properly with regard to the quotation. Mr. Nice quoted item 3 of this
11 annex and failed to quote item 4, which basically balances out item 3, and
12 it says there that ministers expect Kosovo Albanian leadership to --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is a classic example of how you can
14 re-examine. You can re-examine on that and put it to the witness,
15 Mr. Milosevic. That's a classical function of re-examination.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'm telling this to
17 you, because everything that was done by the Contact Group - and we have
18 evidence of that in these papers - was to balance out the action of legal
19 forces and the action of terrorists. Nowadays, nobody in this world would
20 do something like that. Would you imagine a statement nowadays where it
21 would be stated that --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've -- I've stopped you because you're going
23 beyond the permissible limit of a comment.
24 It is open to you to re-examine on this matter, to say to the
25 witness in re-examination, "You have been asked about paragraph 3. Now
Page 33823
1 I'm putting to you the substance of what is in paragraph 4," and that's
2 it, and you would have dealt with the point.
3 Mr. Nice.
4 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.
5 Q. Incidentally, General, before I move to the next -- and I'm nearly
6 at the end of this exercise -- the next letter, you've been quoting from
7 Pristina Corps documents. Where did you obtain them from, because we've
8 had some difficulty.
9 A. Yes. I can give you the dates and the numbers of orders --
10 Q. Where did you get them?
11 A. -- and both those issued by the Ministry of Defence, the General
12 Staff, and the Pristina Corps. All of these orders were classified. I
13 made excerpts for myself, and these excerpts were brought in to us by
14 Russian representatives in the Verification Mission.
15 Why did they do that? They did that because any analysis must
16 include the analysis of legal documents, orders, legal provisions, and so
17 on, and then follow on to analyse how they were implemented. This is
18 exactly the procedure that Russian representatives followed. I can give
19 you the numbers.
20 Q. Maybe later if time allows.
21 MR. NICE: Next page, please, Usher.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I would like to hear
25 from you, based on what Mr. Nice has just said, whether Mr. Nice claims
Page 33824
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Page 33825
1 that they do not have any documents of the Yugoslav army from the time
2 period of NATO aggression against Yugoslavia, meaning orders of Pristina
3 Corps, General Staff, Supreme Command, and so on. Is Mr. Nice claiming
4 that they do not have such documents in their possession?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not an appropriate question for me to put
6 to Mr. Nice. Mr. Nice knows how to manage his case.
7 MR. NICE: Next document, please, Usher, which is, I think, the
8 letter of the 16th of July. Can you put the next document on, please,
9 which is the letter of the 16th of July. Yes, and then the annex. Thank
10 you very much, you're ahead of me as ever.
11 Q. I only want to read from the meeting on the 8th of July,
12 paragraph 3, the first bullet point, so it's a bit further down the page.
13 "Contact Group noted that:
14 "The withdrawal of security forces for civilian repression has
15 not yet been carried out, although the security forces have shown some
16 measure of restraint recently;
17 "Rapid progress in the dialogue with the Kosovo Albanian
18 leadership has not been achieved.
19 "The Contact Group acknowledged the significance of the
20 undertakings given by President Milosevic in his meeting with President
21 Yeltsin on the 16th of June and emphasised the need for them to be fully
22 implemented.
23 "It noted President Milosevic's commitment to allow international
24 observers free and unrestricted access to Kosovo ..."
25 I'm not going to read any more, but I'm trying to read a balanced
Page 33826
1 part of all these documents.
2 Are you happy with that part of the document?
3 A. Mr. Nice, I gave -- I was against and I still am against an equal
4 treatment of legal authorities and terrorists. There was no analysis of
5 any laws, regulations, and orders. None of that was done. Therefore, for
6 me to evaluate and give you a yes or no answer is very difficult,
7 especially since I do not see the document in its entirety. Each item,
8 each paragraph of the documents of the Contact Group is a compromise of
9 either the preceding paragraph or the subsequent one.
10 Q. They're all available to be considered in full, and we'll come
11 just to the conclusion of this bundle of documents. Just so that the
12 usher puts them on the page sequentially, we come eventually to the
13 conclusions of the 22nd of January, 1999. And this a meeting on that
14 date. Chairman's conclusions. In the middle that page:
15 "The Contact Group looks to the FRY to stop all offensive actions
16 or repressions in Kosovo;
17 "To promote the safe return home of those persons displaced in the
18 past few days from the Racak area and to take all steps to avoid a
19 humanitarian catastrophe;
20 "Permit the KVM and its chief of mission to carry out their
21 responsibilities unimpeded;
22 "To cooperate fully with the ICTY, in particular ... access to
23 investigators;
24 "To work with the Tribunal to ensure that those responsible for
25 Racak are brought to justice;
Page 33827
1 "To suspend those VJ or MUP officers operating in Racak on the
2 15th of January pending the results of the investigation ...;
3 "And to comply fully with OSCE/FRY and NATO/FRY agreements ..."
4 And if we then go over, please, Usher, to the next document I'll
5 ask a compendious question, which I think is a letter of the 29th of
6 January followed by an annex in two pages. And if you'd go to the second
7 page of the annex, we see a list of demands by the Contact Group that the
8 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia stop offensive action, comply with
9 agreements and resolutions, promote the safe return of those forced to
10 flee, cooperate with the OSCE and the KVM, cooperate with this Tribunal,
11 investigate Racak, suspend certain officers and police. And there we are.
12 Now, that's records of the Contact Group at the end of the period
13 where it made those demands on Yugoslavia. Those simply reflected, did
14 they not, General, a combination of events with repression and excesses
15 revealed by the forces of Yugoslavia as well as terrorist activity or
16 however so described by the KLA?
17 A. Your Honour, it is difficult for me to answer Mr. Nice's
18 questions. First of all, I don't know what the position was of the
19 Russian side and its proposals. I was not a direct participant in these
20 events. And the third is that these are not official documents.
21 Therefore, it is very difficult for me now to give an assessment of this
22 large set of documents. I can answer specific questions, but I cannot
23 answer questions of these nature that require a very extensive analysis.
24 Q. In which case my last question on this topic is as follows: You
25 explained in answer to His Honour Judge Kwon and to me that you had been
Page 33828
1 really fully engaged in drafting one of these reports and that your -- and
2 your office's information had been available to the Contact Group at that
3 time. Did that continue throughout the period of the Contact Group so
4 that your input was -- and your office's input was available at all times
5 to the Contact Group through the Russian representative?
6 A. Mr. Nice, I did not say that I was a full participant. Either
7 there was a mistake in -- in interpretation or there was some other
8 misunderstanding there. I said that I took part in drafting some of the
9 documents as an expert.
10 As for your second question, the officers of the Verification
11 Mission supplied information to the Contact Group, and I can tell you
12 right away that they did not do that. They reported back to their
13 superiors, and then that information was compiled together, and as such it
14 could have been sent either to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or
15 elsewhere and thus reach the representative. I don't know exactly what
16 was the extent of the information that he received. No officers of the
17 Russian army ever supplied any information to the Contact Group.
18 MR. NICE: Your Honours, before we move to give exhibit numbers to
19 the Contact Group material, I can provide for you, if it would be helpful,
20 and have marked as exhibits the report I relied on of the
21 Secretary-General of the 30th of April, where he refers to the role of the
22 Contact Group. That hasn't yet been produced in evidence.
23 I can also produce Resolution 1199, which leads up to the October
24 agreement, and that hasn't been produced in evidence. They are now
25 available.
Page 33829
1 So that if they were all to be produced, the sensible course might
2 be to put them in their logical order, which, with your leave, would be
3 first the report, and that's now available for distribution.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before we do that, let us hear Mr. Milosevic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These documents of the Contact Group
6 have nothing to do with the evidence given by General Ivasov. General
7 Ivasov was not involved with Contact Group. He did not work there. He
8 doesn't even share the assessments of the Contact Group. He did not refer
9 to the documents of the Contact Group, and no documents of the Contact
10 Group can be admitted through this witness.
11 If Mr. Nice wants to tender them, then he should do it through a
12 witness that was involved with the work of the Contact Group, not through
13 General Ivasov. If we applied this procedure, then we could probably
14 tender into evidence the Dutch papers stating or reporting that General
15 Ivasov is in town today.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I am not in agreement with you, Mr. Milosevic.
17 The witness was able to comment on several passages put to him by
18 Mr. Nice, and it's quite proper for this document to be exhibited.
19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm grateful. May the Security Council
20 report of the 30th of April, 1998, I quoted -- thank you very much. 789.
21 THE REGISTRAR: 789.
22 MR. NICE: May Resolution 1199 --
23 THE REGISTRAR: 790, and then 791 for the whole bunch of documents
24 with tab 1 to tab 11.
25 MR. NICE: Thank you very much for that.
Page 33830
1 Q. General, the October agreements were that which KVM monitored, and
2 just to remind everyone, before KVM, as you will probably know, there were
3 various independent KDOM missions, including from Russia, America,
4 England, I think France and some others. Some of those KDOM missions
5 merging into KVM, all of them except for part of the American KDOM mission
6 which remained separate. This is just to remind everybody of evidence
7 we've heard.
8 But because of the position that you take, I just want to check
9 that you will check your observations on some evidence of General Klaus
10 Naumann, the most senior military member of NATO present at the time, and
11 he said that to the best of his knowledge, he thought that the Yugoslav
12 authorities honoured the October agreement because they withdrew their
13 forces to barracks, and this was not an easy thing to do, to bring 6.000
14 police officers back, and that he explained - this is Klaus Naumann - that
15 they were optimistic at the end of October that they had achieved a
16 breakthrough.
17 Now, let me not mislead you, General Ivasov. You have made some
18 very serious allegations about NATO and about its objectivity and about
19 its complicity and I don't know what. This is what Klaus Naumann said:
20 He says, "Initially the Yugoslav authorities honoured the agreement and
21 were optimistic." Do you think that Klaus Naumann got it right?
22 A. I think Klaus Naumann was right to the extent that Yugoslav
23 authorities did honour their obligations, the demands that were made to
24 them at a diplomatic level but were backed with threats of military force.
25 As early as summer of 1998, Secretary-General of NATO, Mr. Solana, stated
Page 33831
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Page 33832
1 that all options have been taken into account, and NATO was prepared to
2 mount airstrikes and ground operation. After that, concerning the
3 agreement of the 16th October, he stated --
4 Q. General --
5 A. -- that NATO forces were prepared to start strikes within 96
6 hours. Strikes against Yugoslavia. This was the military pressure
7 applied.
8 I agree with Naumann about the fact that Yugoslav army and
9 Yugoslav leadership even agreed to violate their own sovereignty by
10 allowing NATO planes to conduct reconnaissance in their airspace and on
11 their territory. This is the violation of one country's sovereignty.
12 However, Mr. Milosevic did it in order to avoid military intervention. He
13 agreed to that.
14 And I would like to point to the attention of Their Honours that
15 Yugoslav forces, legal forces, from the summer until fall of 1998
16 inflicted significant losses to the terrorist organisations. After
17 Yugoslav army and police pulled back to their barracks, the number of
18 terrorist acts in the area increased by four times, and this despite the
19 presence of Verification Mission and air reconnaissance.
20 Q. General, you know, you can, if you like - I'm sure the Judges will
21 prefer this - answer questions previously where they are susceptible to
22 brevity.
23 I was going to come to the matter you've now raised, you see,
24 because Klaus Naumann, representative of this organisation NATO that you
25 characterised in the way you did yesterday, told the Court this, and it's
Page 33833
1 transcript page 6995. He told the Court: "In all fairness, to the best
2 information I got from the reports on the ground from KDOM and later on
3 from the KVM, many of the incidents were triggered by the UCK" -- KLA --
4 "who obviously tried to exploit the vacuum created by the withdrawn Serb
5 security forces and who then sneaked in to take control of regions or
6 areas. They also, I think, launched provocations, and they were not free
7 of violence in doing so."
8 This is the most senior representative of NATO speaking to this
9 Court. You have not a word of objection to what he said, do you? You'd
10 agree with it.
11 A. Will you please specify one thing. I must confess I wasn't quite
12 paying attention, Mr. Nice. I apologise. Just tell me who sneaked into
13 what zones and provoked violence. Did you mean state authorities or the
14 KLA?
15 Q. The KLA into the areas vacated by the forces that were withdrawn.
16 A. Yes. We had an abundant amount of information to the effect that
17 indeed the terrorist organisation of the Kosovo Liberation Army -- Your
18 Honour, I'll read again from an order. "Albanian terrorist forces have
19 been reorganised, equipped with modern arms --"
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've stopped you. I've stopped you for the
21 reasons that I've already explained.
22 MR. NICE:
23 Q. You see, Klaus Naumann went on, General Klaus Naumann went on to
24 say this, he said: "The problem is that in many cases, as far as I have
25 seen later on, particularly in the course of November and December, the
Page 33834
1 Serb side reacted again in a disproportionate way. It was, if I may say
2 so, the old attitude to react to an incident where perhaps an individual
3 had tried to kill or had killed a police officer."
4 He went on -- so bear that in mind, please, because I want to
5 finish this passage. He went on to say the following things, speaking of
6 NATO, that NATO lacked an instrument, how to get the KLA under control and
7 how to influence them, because he said in his NATO capacity, he was never
8 allowed to talk to the UCK man, the KLA man, or representative because
9 NATO had initially called these people terrorists, and the iron rule was
10 that NATO will never negotiate with terrorists.
11 That's something which is not unimportant if you look at the
12 composition of NATO, he said, since in some NATO countries we have
13 terrorist movements.
14 And then finally, he said that after December they saw increased
15 violence by both sides.
16 Now, this is the man who headed NATO, and I've, of course,
17 summarised the passage of his evidence, but I hope fairly. Is there
18 anything in what I've summarised to you that is not fair and accurate? He
19 was on the ground.
20 A. I have only respect for General Naumann. I had many discussions
21 with him over the Kosovo problem. He's right in saying that NATO could
22 not do any policing, and that is why we suggested, instead of military
23 pressure, to deploy international police forces, and that is something
24 that Mr. Naumann agreed with.
25 However, there is one important point here. When Mr. Naumann is
Page 33835
1 saying that if one policeman is killed it is not all right to use
2 excessive force in reaction. It was recognised, both within NATO and
3 within the Contact Group, that a terrorist network had been established, a
4 very broad organisation numbering many thousands of armed men. And every
5 terrorist act, such as the murder of a policeman or a peaceful citizen,
6 could not be dealt with by just two policemen. Of course there had to be
7 a reaction. But most of the terrorist acts were wide-scale, massive,
8 well-planned actions. In order to detect terrorists, arrest them, or
9 liquidate them, it was necessary to use major forces, primarily of the
10 security forces but also the army.
11 And I wish to point out one more thing. This is the leadership of
12 the General Staff and official orders which forbid the use of heavy
13 weaponry. Certain particular actions were forbidden under the regulations
14 and the legislation. And based on these orders, we concluded that all the
15 necessary measures were taken to avoid the use of heavy weaponry and to
16 avoid collateral damage to civilian population. But we do not deny that
17 certain excesses could have happened involving individual troops.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I said thank you, General.
19 Mr. Nice.
20 MR. NICE: We now move to the next topic upon which -- I move to
21 the next topic on which you ventured an opinion, namely the accuracy of
22 reporting of the KVM mission which was in the theatre between the late
23 autumn of 1998 and the 20th of March of 1999.
24 Were you yourself there? You weren't there in 1998. Were you
25 there at all yourself before the 20th of March of 1999?
Page 33836
1 A. Mr. Nice, I occupied a rather high position, and I did not
2 organise any military actions. However, I led military observers. I gave
3 them tasks, and I visited Belgrade very often.
4 I did not have any need to go out directly into the field or visit
5 the areas of combat action or even the area where the mission was working.
6 Q. To remind yourself -- to remind you, rather, and to just remind
7 the Chamber if it needs reminding, the KVM reporting system was from field
8 officer or field office up to a coordination centre, to a regional centre,
9 and then to Pristina, for example, and then to Ambassador Walker. We have
10 heard in court, as a Defence witness, somebody who for, I think, two or
11 three weeks ran a field office, a man called Keith. We have some material
12 in the form of regular reporting in documents, and we've heard from people
13 at the regional level, Maisonneuve and Ciaglinski, as well as General
14 Drewienkiewicz, one of Walker's deputies.
15 Tell us, please, again, why it is you say that the reports of
16 which we have heard in evidence are unreliable.
17 A. Mr. Nice, the references I made to several orders and laws were an
18 integral part of the work and the reports of Russian observers.
19 Second, Russian observers always started their work by studying
20 the laws and decisions of the state authorities of whatever region they
21 were sent to. However -- and let me add, they sent their reports to their
22 superior officers. However, in Mr. Walker's reports, you will see no
23 mention, no reference to any analysis of legislation or regulations.
24 Furthermore, Mr. Walker and many other NATO representatives did
25 not analyse the orders issued to the police and the army. How could they
Page 33837
1 make any conclusions about the legal or illegal character of their
2 actions?
3 There is probably a number of other arguments I could make to
4 explain that they did not do their work conscientiously. And the reports
5 they sent to the OSCE did not reflect the objective, the real picture.
6 Q. Now, this is a -- I think something different. No complaint,
7 General, but maybe a little different than how you expressed it yesterday.
8 Your concern is that the reports didn't focus on the legislative or
9 regulatory framework of the military or the police. Is that what you're
10 saying?
11 A. Well, Prosecution is focusing precisely on officials who held
12 official positions, who issued orders, who made the rules. And when you
13 collect your evidence only by interviewing refugees going to Macedonia or
14 interviewing terrorists, members of the KLA, and accidental passersby,
15 that is also necessary, perhaps. But I, for instance, instructed our
16 observers that they should start their work by interviewing officials, by
17 studying the rules, the regulations, and the legislation of the state
18 authorities and hearing the evidence of the -- of the other party.
19 Obviously Mr. Walker's mission had a different approach.
20 Q. Again just to remind you, if you weren't aware of this, and to
21 refresh our memories, the mission started off with a large number of
22 military personnel because they were said to be typically more readily
23 available, the intention being, in due course, to transfer to one that
24 would be more built on those with election experience and similar. And
25 the reporting was factual, it was simply to report on what was happening
Page 33838
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Page 33839
1 on the ground, there being specific lines of communication established
2 with both the Serb forces and with the KLA, thus to get over, for example,
3 the problem that NATO had about dealing with people described as
4 terrorists.
5 And what I want from you, and I don't think you've helped me yet,
6 is I want to know why, and I'm going to hold them up, exhibits of this
7 kind, which are the reports that are in evidence and that I may ask you to
8 look at, why they are not factually reliable. So I don't understand it,
9 what you're saying. Why aren't they factually reliable?
10 A. If you want to talk in broad terms, Mr. Walker's mission was, on
11 the one hand, an attempt to find a peaceful solution, to restore peace to
12 Kosovo. And on the other hand, it was a detail, a cog in the wheel of
13 that large operation that I talked about yesterday.
14 For instance, on what basis did NATO constantly arrogate the right
15 to concentrate its military forces, to assume functions that normally
16 belonged to the United Nations, and to circumvent the legal bodies? And
17 in this process of Kosovo and --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, again. Mr. Nice, it's open to you to
19 stop the witness.
20 MR. NICE: I will if you want. It's just -- well, Your Honour,
21 I'm always reluctant to interfere because interference has its negative
22 side, but I will be more pro-active if the Chamber would like. It also
23 sometimes gives the false impression that I'm troubled by the answer.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's no jury here.
25 MR. NICE: I'm grateful for that -- I'm not grateful for that, I
Page 33840
1 simply observe it.
2 Q. General, if you can't explain to me -- no. It's not for me.
3 You raised yesterday that these reports are unreliable. I want to
4 explore on what ground you're saying they're unreliable, because if you
5 don't give a ground for their unreliability, I'm simply going to move on
6 to another topic.
7 Can you explain why, in factual terms, these reports are
8 unreliable?
9 A. Mr. Nice, those international commissions who were not under
10 NATO's control provided different reports. Please note down I'm not going
11 to comment. A Report of the OSCE, Kosovo, As Seen As Told. That was the
12 name of the report. October 1998 - October 1999. That is also a report
13 of the OSCE but outside of NATO control. And the conclusions you find
14 there are completely different. There are some conclusions that coincide,
15 there are others that don't.
16 I also base my claim on the fact that the reports were made --
17 Q. We have the document. It's an exhibit in the case. It's being
18 considered. Which conclusions are different?
19 A. The conclusions, in principle, are really different. I quote:
20 "Prior to the NATO operation, Serb forces" -- and I underline "prior to
21 the NATO operation," and you will not find this in Walker's report --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You said, "I quote." What are you quoting from?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I'm quoting. It is the
24 OSCE report just shown by Mr. Nice. It is an exhibit here, I understand.
25 It is a report by independent experts.
Page 33841
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... paragraph or
2 chapter or page?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I cannot give you the
4 page because I just noted down certain excerpts from it in longhand.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll allow you to --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For instance, there is a chapter
7 about violence in Kosovo.
8 May I quote, then?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 MR. NICE: Yes, we'll find it later.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll try to find it. Go ahead.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Prior to the NATO operation, the
13 Serb army and organs of law enforcement acted harshly only in areas of
14 concentration of the KLA. Punitive actions were targeted only against
15 terrorists and separatist organisations openly supporting combat
16 operations until they achieved freedom of their territory."
17 If you compare this passage to its equivalent in Walker's report,
18 you will see that the conclusions are very different.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very good. We have the OSCE. In the break,
20 Mr. Nice will try to find the passage.
21 MR. NICE:
22 Q. Yes. General, can you tell us, was it from the first couple of
23 pages of the book or did you read all of it or consider all of the book?
24 A. It was a chapter that speaks of the escalation of violence. That
25 could be the title, I think.
Page 33842
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. We're going to take a break now for
2 20 minutes.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to caution you that I used up
8 215 minutes in my examination-in-chief. Mr. Nice is entitled to 60 per
9 cent of my time, and he has already used 150 minutes, and you did not
10 caution him in time. He has overstepped his time limit by a great deal.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: On many occasions, Mr. Milosevic, you were
12 allowed additional time in cross-examination of Prosecution witnesses. In
13 the Chamber's view, the overtime is entirely appropriate and warranted on
14 this occasion, but I take note of the point that you have made.
15 MR. NICE: Your Honour, let me just --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: In event, it will be adjusted.
17 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, I took the general encouragement to
18 take the time allowed to be a global rather than a particular witness one,
19 and a witness like this coming with the range of material without any
20 warning was one who was going to take some time, but of course I'm
21 absolutely anxious to be as short as I can.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: As I said, Mr. Milosevic, in any event, an
23 adjustment will be made so there will be no loss of time to you.
24 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I'm afraid we can't find the reference in
25 "As Seen, As Told." I would ask the usher just to lay on the overhead
Page 33843
1 projector this passage highlighted in yellow.
2 Q. Because, General, you came to Court with one extract from "As
3 Seen, As Told," the report There are two reports, by the way. I don't
4 know if you knew that. This is the one we think you had in mind. You
5 should know that this same report upon which you rely to show the
6 unreliability of KVM reporting includes this in its executive summary or
7 its opening paragraph: "The scale on which human rights violations recur
8 is staggering. It has been estimated that over 90 per cent of the Kosovo
9 Albanian population - over 1.45 million people - were displaced by the
10 conflict by the 9 June 1999. The death toll as yet can only be guessed
11 at, but the prevalence of confirmed reports and witness statements about
12 individual and group killings in this report is indicative. The violence
13 meted out to people as recounted vividly, particularly in the statements
14 of refugees, was extreme and appalling."
15 I don't want to read further. General, this is a report that you
16 rely on to show the unreliability of the raw material before this Trial
17 Chamber, but just help me, is this conclusion of the "As Seen, As Told"
18 report something that you accept or not? Because it's part of the
19 evidence in this case.
20 A. What in particular?
21 Q. Well, where it's said that the scale of human rights violations is
22 staggering and where it says that 1.45 million people were displaced, for
23 example. Do you accept that?
24 A. I accept that insofar as the report deals with violations of human
25 rights, primarily by terrorist organisations. As for the number of
Page 33844
1 displaced persons, I cannot confirm it, but that the massive exodus of
2 refugees began with the start of the NATO bombing is something that I
3 support and confirm.
4 Q. I'll come back to that. Staying with the KVM, General
5 Drewienkiewicz and Mr. Walker were not asked, no complaints to you about
6 this, General, were not asked all the questions that were raised by your
7 evidence yesterday. Please confirm that there was a Russian deputy, part
8 of the KVM, who would have been present at every one of Ambassador
9 Walker's morning briefings.
10 A. How do you translate "Russian deputy"? Do you mean deputy to the
11 parliament or a Russian representative?
12 Q. No, no. Representative.
13 A. A Russian representative, yes, he was present.
14 Q. So that any bias by Ambassador Walker or those reporting to him
15 could have been detected by the Russian representative, documented, and
16 then reflected in your evidence here?
17 A. Let me note that in October 19 -- excuse me, December 1998, our
18 representative submitted a report to our Defence Minister Marshal Sergeyev
19 and submitted another long report to me in which the representative noted
20 precisely such facts; namely, that the reports by the Russian
21 representative are received but not taken into account.
22 Q. Well, have you --
23 A. The representative in question was Mr. Ivanovski.
24 Q. Have you brought that report with you?
25 A. I didn't know that the question would arise. If I had known, I
Page 33845
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Page 33846
1 could have brought it, and I would probably have needed a whole plane to
2 fill with documents.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. That specific report, you can get?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a verbal report, and I
5 remember maps were laid out when he reported to the defence minister and
6 briefed me. And that happened in Belgrade in December.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You said he submitted a report, which would
8 lead one to believe that there was a written report.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was a verbal report on the
10 situation that had developed in the mission. The situation was that the
11 input of the Russian and some other representatives of non-NATO countries
12 were not being taken into account. That is what he reported.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... when that
14 report was submitted, that oral report?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was the marshal of Russia and
16 simultaneously Defence Minister Sergeyev, there was myself and two of my
17 officers.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: General, what was done about it in the light of
19 this report?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Marshal Sergeyev set the task of
21 firmly promoting our interests and forwarding our reports to the
22 headquarters so that they be taken into account. And upon return from
23 Belgrade, he spoke about it at one of his meetings with NATO, and he also
24 informed the foreign ministry.
25 MR. NICE:
Page 33847
1 Q. You see, General, if there is any substance in the complaint, you
2 could have, or your marshal could have, complained to Vienna, could have
3 complained to Ambassador Walker, could have required further detailed
4 reporting to your representative who was at every one of Walker's daily
5 meetings.
6 Now, I cannot know one way or another what was said in an oral
7 report, but what I suggest to you is that there's no real substance in the
8 complaint that you're making; and indeed, just to complete it, had this
9 been raised, the position of the Prosecution through witnesses would
10 almost certainly have been that the Russians were very well used in the
11 mission, were very well distributed, as were the Ukrainians, not least, of
12 course, because the Ukrainians were able to communicate linquistically
13 directly with the people on the ground. They were well used and well
14 relied on.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you putting that as a question?
16 MR. NICE: I'm putting that as a proposition.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What could I do? Upon return to
18 Russia, I could seek written confirmation from the observers who worked on
19 the mission and forward these reports to this Tribunal.
20 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, I'm going to move on from the
21 reliability of the reports, because I don't think the witness can help us
22 further. I would respectfully remind the Court of the exercise we went
23 through with the blue book, and we've only had one ground-level witness,
24 and that was the witness Keith. I'll just deal with that with this
25 witness, actually.
Page 33848
1 Q. General Ivasov, I should ask for your comment on this. I don't
2 know if you've seen the evidence or had it reported to you, but the only I
3 think ground-level reporting officer, the man Keith, who was called by
4 this accused as one of the accused's witnesses, produced a couple of his
5 daily reports and found that everything in it, effectively, was faithfully
6 reported in the compendious reporting document known as the blue book.
7 Now, do you have any reason to doubt that the blue book is indeed an
8 accurate - this is a compendious account - an accurate report of the
9 events on the ground?
10 A. I don't know Mr. Keith, therefore, I cannot comment on the blue
11 book. I based my opinion on the official documents that I received.
12 Q. And the verbal report.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Which official documents?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, the same report by
15 Mr. Walker, the OSCE documents, as well as the official reports sent in by
16 the representatives of Russia within the mission who worked on the ground.
17 MR. NICE: I don't know if there's any of this material that's
18 going to be produced to us, but in the absence of it I'm just going to
19 move on.
20 May I help the Chamber in relation to one of the things or two of
21 the things that the witness said yesterday. This calls for no answer by
22 the witness, although he may wish to make a comment.
23 It is accepted that there were present in the KVM at least some
24 people who had been trained by or had experience with the American
25 organisation MPRI, and I do not challenge that members of the KLA may have
Page 33849
1 been trained by such people.
2 The Rule 68 regime under which I now work has been recently
3 changed by a change in the Rule, and the Chamber will understand the
4 difficulties I sometimes face with producing in written form the material
5 that I might wish to do, but I've made, I hope, adequate concessions to
6 ensure that there is no unfairness.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please clarify what you
8 have in mind. I never stated that members of the Verification Mission had
9 been recruited or used by that organisation. What I said was that in the
10 territory of Albania, there were training camps where persons recruited by
11 these organisations were observed. I never made that claim with respect
12 to any members of the mission. Please take this into account.
13 MR. NICE: Certainly. Your Honours, in light of the general
14 complaints of or criticisms about Ambassador Walker, a short collection of
15 documents, which I think I can deal with quite swiftly. They exist in
16 both English translation and B/C/S, so that there can be a B/C/S version
17 for the witness, although he may prefer to hear it through the English
18 translation. They are reports from the federal ministry -- the federal
19 foreign ministry office in Kosovo. And if they can be displayed on the
20 overhead projector in the English version so that we can follow them very,
21 very quickly.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour? Your Honour?
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to inform you that I
25 have my flight at 1600 hours today, leaving from Amsterdam.
Page 33850
1 MR. NICE: No problem.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I would like you to have that in
3 mind.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is 4.00. If you leave here at a quarter to
5 two, you should get there before three. I think you're still on time.
6 MR. NICE:
7 Q. The first document, dated the 26th of November, 1998, described as
8 a Drewienkiewicz conversation - that's General DZ, who was a witness here
9 - and it just deals with the terminological problem of terrorism and the
10 other party, and explains: "Drewienkiewicz agreed that the two parties
11 could not be equated because one was a sovereign state and while the other
12 party certainly was not, did they consider it -- nor did they consider it
13 as such."
14 This is a small point, but the terminology of terrorism or
15 otherwise we've seen in the reports that we were looking at before, that
16 Walker and others were prepared to describe the KLA as terrorists from
17 time to time, and you would accept that, General, wouldn't you?
18 A. Yes. Precisely periodically. From time to time, they would call
19 them terrorists. But the conduct of Mr. Walker was quite surprising,
20 because he used to meet with the leaders of a terrorist organisation, and
21 moreover, some representatives of the United States and other NATO Member
22 States would meet with them in various European capitals. And there was
23 no attempt to arrest them or interview them.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.
25 MR. NICE:
Page 33851
1 Q. Pause. As I've explained to you through the evidence, NATO was
2 not allowed to meet terrorists, and the whole purpose of the KVM was that
3 it should be able to meet -- one of the purposes of the KVM was that it
4 should be able to negotiate with all sides, and that's what they did.
5 Now, I thought you'd accepted that, but if you don't, I rather we
6 can move on because of limited time.
7 A. I'm saying that the representatives of NATO countries would meet
8 publicly and openly with leaders of a terrorist organisation. Moreover,
9 they invited them to conferences and welcomed them warmly there. And they
10 did not display such generosity with respect to the representatives of the
11 official authorities.
12 Q. Next document, please, has got an uncertain date but is probably
13 the 16th of December. Its subject is Walker and Loncar, and at the bottom
14 of the first page: "The subjects discussed included the latest incidents
15 provoked by Albanian terrorists on the Yugoslav/Albanian border and an
16 attack on a cafe in Pec where six Serbs were killed. What was
17 characteristic for this conversation was that, for the first time, Walker
18 described such incidents as terrorist acts, adding that a similar
19 definition had been used by Ambassador Holbrooke."
20 I think this confirms your account, I think, and we can move on,
21 agreed?
22 A. I agree with the fact that this incident did take place. On that
23 particular day I was in Belgrade, and yes, I agree with the fact that
24 Mr. Walker did not ascribe clear legal responsibility for this incident to
25 the terrorist organisation.
Page 33852
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Page 33853
1 Q. The next document is the 28th of December, mistyped as '88 in the
2 translation but it's 1998. So don't take any notice of the English
3 translation. And the subject is a conversation between Drewienkiewicz and
4 Loncar. Four lines down in the body of the report: "He said that he
5 first wished to present the current assessments of the KVM on the
6 political and security situation in Kosovo and Metohija, and the latest
7 incidents which caused the negotiated cease-fire between the MUP and the
8 so-called KLA to break down. In the way he presented the assessments and
9 conclusions of the KVM, the focus of his assessment was that MUP and the
10 Yugoslav army had acted in a legitimate way lately, but their use of force
11 was disproportionate."
12 We can go over the page, please, Usher.
13 Two lines down on the next page: "He also underlined that, in his
14 view, the KVM was doing its work well, even going beyond its tasks, since
15 it not only endeavours to verify the situation but also to contact the KLA
16 in order to exert pressure on the other side and convince them not to act
17 foolishly, attempting to convince them to withdraw to the positions held
18 in October of this year and that their provocations and 'strutting around'
19 were inappropriate in the given situation."
20 And then over the page, please, Usher, to the last page of --
21 effectively the last page of this report, seven lines down.
22 "Wishing to emphasise the good intentions, refuted by our side,,
23 of the KVM, he said that mission head Walker had given a positive
24 statement with regard to the incidents on the Yugoslav-Albanian border.
25 On that occasion, he clearly verified the entire event as the legitimate
Page 33854
1 right of the Yugoslav side."
2 So, now, this, you see, General, is a report by the Serb side on
3 various things said by General Drewienkiewicz, and it is quite clear, is
4 it not, from the material available that they were being evenhanded in
5 what they were doing by way of reporting?
6 A. Yes, absolutely. In certain cases, especially when it had to do
7 with attempted incursions across the border and also in some other
8 instances, Mr. Walker did provide objective information. However, as for
9 the claim that disproportionate force was used, there is no legal
10 interpretation of that term. However, let me reiterate once again that
11 all legislation and all orders dealing with the Supreme Command and
12 commanding of armed forces limited the use of force and reiterated that
13 those who violate regulations will be held accountable.
14 Q. This is the sixth, seventh time you've told us that, and I'm going
15 to move on to the last document of this bundle. The 12th of January,
16 1999, again, a Serb-side report. Conversation with Aleksandar Nikolaev,
17 chief, reconstruction, KVM.
18 Can you help us, is Nikalaev a Russian?
19 A. I cannot confirm that. If you tell me more about the person,
20 perhaps -- half of people in Russia has the name of Nikalaev.
21 Q. Very well. But just look at what it says in paragraph, or listen,
22 in your case, what it says in paragraph 2:
23 "Nikalaev presented some details with regard to events in the KVM
24 after the murder of the policemen and the abduction of Yugoslav army
25 soldiers. Immediately upon receiving the news about the given incidents,
Page 33855
1 General Drewienkiewicz informed Walker in Washington. Ambassador Walker
2 asked General D. to hold off sending the report to Washington, 'warning'
3 him that perhaps it was a matter of misinformation and so forth.
4 "Nevertheless, General D. organised a meeting with Walker's other
5 deputies. On the basis of a majority vote, it was decided to forward the
6 report to Washington, as a result of which Walker was 'furious.'
7 "In continuation, Nikalaev informed us about the assessment of
8 the situation in Kosovo and Metohija drawn up by the KVM Department for
9 Analytical Assessments on the 9th of January."
10 Now, I'm not going to take any more time with that document, but
11 it's clear, isn't it, that the workings of the KVM were transparent to a
12 body like Russia in various ways. You had a representative at their
13 morning meetings, full reports of any little disagreements were available,
14 like this, which went to Yugoslavia, and it was a body doing a serious job
15 in a responsible and transparent way; correct?
16 A. I cannot comment upon this particular case. However, I know that
17 when Igor Ivanov, minister of foreign affairs of Russia, met with
18 Mrs. Albright and other colleagues, he did put forward this issue, namely
19 the issue on the objectivity of reporting on the events in Kosovo coming
20 from all members of the mission.
21 As for Mr. Holbrooke, that he was upset, this is an internal US
22 affair, especially since Mr. Holbrooke and Mr. Walker, as well as many
23 other officials who served in European Commissions --
24 Q. Very well.
25 A. -- were representatives of the United States.
Page 33856
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer do you have?
2 MR. NICE: I can go on but I forecast the Chamber is interested in
3 how much re-examination time the accused wants. If he wants any, then I
4 can finish in perhaps 15 or 20 minutes.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, will you be re-examining; and if
6 you will be, how long would you need?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very briefly.
8 MR. NICE: I'll finish by 25 to, or 20 to, then. That would be
9 brief.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: 25 to? I'd say half past.
11 MR. NICE: Do my best.
12 Q. There is one important matter you raised yesterday, or potentially
13 important matter, General, that the Chamber may want assistance with. You
14 suggested that the KVM was actively pursuing the general plan to dismember
15 Yugoslavia by identifying targets for bombing. That's what you said,
16 effectively. What's your evidence for that, or do you in fact have none?
17 A. There is evidence supporting that. However, so far, this evidence
18 is classified, and it was contained in the report of those monitors, the
19 report which I hope to provide to the Court upon my return to Russia.
20 Q. General, I think you should reflect on what's happened so far. If
21 you're going to refer to classified material, so far as I'm concerned, do
22 so, but you must then -- we will then seek through the Court that you
23 produce it. If you're not going to be able to produce it, I don't ask you
24 to give any answers based on it.
25 Now, are you going to be able to produce this classified material?
Page 33857
1 Yes or no.
2 A. I will refer to indirect information in areas where certain
3 members of the mission worked. After the 24th of March, very direct and
4 precise strikes were made, and the air reconnaissance in the area probably
5 collected information. We have reasons to believe that they collected
6 military intelligence information. There could not have been other reason
7 for their presence. How many cases would be sufficient to substantiate my
8 claim, Mr. Nice?
9 Q. Armies such as NATO would have, by all sorts of contingency
10 planning, advance knowledge of all fixed-location targets, would they not?
11 They wouldn't be dependent on an ad hoc group of available staff produced
12 for the KVM mission. They would have information way before that. As a
13 military man, you must know that.
14 A. I am a military man, and I know that military men follow orders
15 and legislation. Who authorised NATO to create armed groups and prepare
16 air strikes? What organ, what body authorised this action? Was it
17 Mr. Solana?
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... answer the question. NATO
19 would have had advance knowledge of target sites, and it would not require
20 information from an ad hoc group like the KVM to do such work for it. Yes
21 or no.
22 A. Mr. Nice, when the Russian side supplied documents to Mr. Clark,
23 documents on training camps for terrorists, routes used for them to supply
24 weapons and other supplies, Mr. Clark claimed that NATO did not possess
25 any such information and that its intelligence services was doing a poor
Page 33858
1 job. So this is the only comment I can give you.
2 Q. Very well. Next point. Next point.
3 A. Verification Mission probably complemented the work of NATO
4 intelligence.
5 Q. Next point. The reports that we've heard, including "As Seen, As
6 Told," the human rights report, and so on, and the evidence of somebody
7 called Ball, an expert, all go to show or to suggest that expulsion
8 following the start of the bombing campaign was as a result of action by
9 Serb forces. I only want to know methodologically what is it that you
10 rely on to suggest it? First of all, A, did you speak to the refugees
11 yourself? That's a yes or no question.
12 A. Yes, I personally spoke through a Greek-Russian interpreter.
13 Q. To how many?
14 A. I spoke to the two of them who represented two families of
15 Albanian Catholics.
16 Q. What other evidence do you rely on to show that the bulk of the
17 evidence coming to this court about the expulsions following Serb actions
18 is wrong? What do you rely on?
19 A. I also relied on the statements of the UN Commissioner for
20 Refugees. I also relied on the UN documents indicating that there was an
21 increase, dramatic increase in the number of refugees from the beginning
22 of bombing. And yesterday I explained how this came about. People were
23 looking for shelter.
24 Q. Did you from your intelligence have any explanation for how the
25 Judges are in due course satisfied of this: Mass graves in Serbia
Page 33859
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Page 33860
1 contained bodies of people killed in Kosovo, in particular at Batajnica,
2 the special anti-terrorist unit based near Belgrade? Do you, from your
3 intelligence, have any explanation for how that happened?
4 A. We received regular information from our embassy, from the
5 administration of military attache, and from other structures. We also
6 received information from the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... explain, can you please help
8 us, as a friendly nation with access to intelligence and information, how
9 or why bodies of people killed in Kosovo were buried in an air force base
10 -- near an air force base in Belgrade? Just yes or no, can you help us?
11 A. I had nothing to do with the burial of this -- these bodies, so I
12 cannot comment on this.
13 Q. You weren't present at Rambouillet yourself?
14 A. I was not present in Rambouillet. Russia was represented there by
15 Boris Mayorsky, who, in the second round of negotiations, was not able to
16 familiarise himself with the document presented by Mrs. Albright. And
17 this is his own account of the event. And this document was immediately
18 accepted by the Kosovo Albanians.
19 Q. The reality, General Ivasov, is that you are extremely loyal to
20 the Slav and Yugoslav cause as you perceive it; correct?
21 A. Mr. Nice, you know what? I have a lot of friends in NATO. They
22 continue to be my friends. And these are highly placed individuals.
23 Mr. Solana decorated me with a medal for cooperation with NATO. But I
24 have to say that I did not accept the medal.
25 Mr. Robertson, General-Secretary of NATO, in May of 2001, awarded
Page 33861
1 me with a special medal for my contribution to the cooperation with NATO.
2 Yes, I am a patriot, I love my country, but let me reiterate, I was born
3 in the Islamic republic within the Soviet Union, and I treat all
4 ethnicities with respect.
5 Q. And you, for example, when it came to the agreement that ended the
6 NATO bombing, were against the conciliatory approach taken by
7 Chernomyrdin, your superior, and indeed you obstinately refused to approve
8 of his agreement, requiring your own minister's approval of it before it
9 could be effected; correct?
10 A. I categorically declined, opposed the ultimatum issued to
11 Yugoslavia. I categorically abided by the directive of the President
12 Yeltsin, which was mandatory for all members of the delegation and which
13 was violated by Mr. Chernomyrdin. I also opposed any secret dealings that
14 took place between Mr. Talbot and Mr. Chernomyrdin.
15 And let me give you an example. When Mr. Chernomyrdin and Mr.
16 Atasari arrived in Belgrade --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... example.
18 MR. NICE:
19 Q. If I can just ask you this, because I want you to look at a couple
20 of clips and then I'm done, from a film. You were in fact the officer who
21 took the Russian forces to Pristina airport, precipitating near conflict
22 with NATO, and you had to withdraw them. Whether you did that on
23 Yeltsin's instructions or on your own initiative not being clear, but you
24 were the officer who made that decision?
25 A. Mr. Nice, first of all, let us clarify something. What provision
Page 33862
1 of the UN Charter or what paragraph of the UN Security Council
2 Resolution --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you answer the question? Can you answer the
4 question whether you were the officer who took the Russian forces to
5 Pristina airport?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the officer who executed the
7 order of President Yeltsin. The decision of President Yeltsin and the
8 order of the minister of defence. I tried to comply with it to the best
9 of my abilities.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. I'd like you to look at some very short extracts from The Fall of
12 Milosevic programme.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: "First of all, when there were rallies,
15 primarily outside the American embassy, I went there to see. I was
16 dressed in mufti and I was really enthusiastic about our young people who
17 evaluated this aggression as what it was, aggression."
18 [Videotape played]
19 "Mr. Chernomyrdin had in his delegation a Russian general by the
20 name of Ivasov. He said no to everything. Every conceivable proposition.
21 NATO at the core, no; total withdrawals, no. You name it, the answer
22 was no."
23 [Videotape played]
24 "Moscow was clearly up to something. Clinton's Russian advisor
25 was sent there to confront the Russian foreign minister."
Page 33863
1 [No interpretation]
2 "Ivanov said that he regretted to inform us that there had indeed
3 been an accidental deployment of Russian forces into Kosovo but that it
4 was an accident and they would be out in a matter of hours."
5 [No interpretation]
6 "So contrite was the Russian foreign minister that he agreed to
7 phone a statement to CNN."
8 [No interpretation]
9 "As early as he dared, the foreign minister woke his colleagues.
10 "The foreign minister now learned that his president had been
11 behind the whole operation.
12 "They decided to raise the stakes and send reinforcements to
13 Pristina airport."
14 [No interpretation]
15 "We were getting information reports that the --"
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you're now running into the
17 re-examination time.
18 MR. NICE: Yes.
19 Q. All I was going to ask you is this, and it's my final question:
20 Your reaction, we can't necessarily resolve if it was your initiative or
21 President Yeltsin's order, but your reaction generally at the time of this
22 agreement that brought to the end the bombing, and we'll hear more of this
23 from other witnesses, shows sadly, General, that you are extremely
24 committed, if not overcommitted, to what you see as the Yugoslav interest.
25 Isn't that the reality?
Page 33864
1 A. First of all --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... short answer
3 to that, General.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, thank you for letting
5 me see this footage. I was younger then.
6 Second, I had in my hands the president's order, and I followed
7 it. And I had no negative feelings towards the American delegation and
8 even less towards the Finnish delegation. The three-star General Stugasin
9 [phoen] and General Casey and I had a very friendly mutual relationship.
10 There was no hostility. Yes, I did defend the interests of Yugoslavia as
11 an independent sovereign country. I demanded and tried to achieve that
12 the UN Charter and the international norms be observed. I did not pursue
13 any other objectives.
14 MR. NICE: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I am as dedicated to peace as
16 any NATO General. The peace of Kosovo, I mean.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, I'm going to exhibit this.
19 MR. NICE: Yes. Please exhibit that.
20 JUDGE KWON: 792. Tab 4.
21 MR. NICE: There are four other exhibits, but maybe we can deal
22 with those after the re-examination so as not to cut into witness time.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
24 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Just one brief topic, General Ivasov, in this
Page 33865
1 cross-examination. Mr. Nice asked you questions related to the
2 Verification Mission, although you spoke about it in detail yesterday. I
3 will ask you, in my turn, a very, very brief question, and it is as
4 follows: Did the Verification Mission headed by Walker -- was the
5 Verification Mission used to achieve peace or to prepare an aggression
6 against Yugoslavia?
7 A. I have to observe that many of the mission's members, especially
8 those from Sweden, Finland, Ukraine, Russia, and others, and even some
9 NATO member countries such as Greece, really did seek peace. However,
10 there was a group of representatives who were solely involved in military
11 issues, military tasks, namely the tasks of preparing the airstrikes, and
12 some of them were representatives of the intelligence services of Western
13 countries, and their primary job was an intelligence-gathering job. That
14 intelligence job was done under the cover of the Verification Mission,
15 preparing airstrikes and the ground operation that were to follow.
16 Q. Thank you. Did NATO cooperate with the KLA?
17 A. Yes, Mr. President. That cooperation was on the political level.
18 I quoted examples when leaders of terrorist organisations met with
19 officials of NATO. The cooperation was also on the military level,
20 because, particularly in autumn 1998, the terrorists' arsenal began to
21 include state-of-the-art weapons manufactured in NATO member countries.
22 Even Mr. Walker I can quote. On the 28th of September, immediately after
23 meeting with you -- sorry, not Walker, Holbrooke. Holbrooke immediately
24 went on to meet the leaders of the terrorist organisation, and so on and
25 so forth. That can easily be considered as open cooperation with the
Page 33866
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Page 33867
1 terrorist organisation. Furthermore, there was no attempt whatsoever to
2 arrest any of these murderers and terrorists.
3 Q. General Ivasov, in the interview you gave to the Nin magazine on
4 the 5th of May, 1999, I will quote only one sentence from it. You said:
5 "Even if President Milosevic and the Yugoslav government were to propose
6 the most constructive and the most humane option for resolving the Kosovo
7 crisis, which I repeat had been caused from outside, the NATO leadership
8 headed by the US would, nevertheless, start with their operation."
9 Is that your position?
10 MR. NICE: I don't know where this is going. I know we are
11 pressed for time, but --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 MR. NICE: I have an objection to this and if the accused wants to
14 run his case himself he's going to have to get used to the technical
15 rules, and apart from the general limitation on relying on prior
16 consistent statements, which we needn't debate now, simply to put a
17 sentence that hasn't been explored in evidence to a witness in these
18 circumstances doesn't to me to be likely to help the Chamber very much.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.
21 I take note of the point you make, Mr. Nice.
22 Proceed. Are you finished?
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Yes. I asked General Ivasov was that his position. Does he still
25 believe so today?
Page 33868
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: And he did answer yes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I am certain about this. That
3 certainty was shared by the Russian political and military leadership.
4 If Mr. Nice is still not satisfied, I can quote a sentence from
5 the Washington Post and Houston Chronicle, and even Mr. Kissinger, who
6 said in unison, "Did anyone ever imagine that Serbs could possibly accept
7 this ultimatum --"
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: We've had your answer. I said, General, we've
9 had your answer.
10 Mr. Milosevic, yes.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Just one more question. Evidence and proof of your claims to the
13 effect that NATO had been preparing activities and aggression against
14 Yugoslavia has been sought here. I want to ask, is it true that this
15 claim of yours is also based on a great number of your face-to-face
16 conversations with high officials of the NATO alliance? If you wish, you
17 can enumerate by name the people from NATO with whom you discussed this
18 issue, warning them that they should not go forward with this operation.
19 A. I spoke practically with all NATO leaders, with Mr. Solana, for
20 instance, but I underline that Mr. Solana didn't take any decisions. Any
21 American general took more decisions than him. With Mr. Robertson, with
22 Colonel Naumann, and practically all defence ministers of NATO.
23 Both the Russian official position and my personal position were
24 the same; to avoid war. However, the machine was already in operation,
25 and I can quote specific materials. 6th of May, 1998 --
Page 33869
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, General.
2 Mr. Milosevic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the dates when
4 NATO gave official statements and announcements about the increasing
5 readiness of their military forces and the upcoming operation.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did I ask you already, do you have evidence that was sought here
8 that NATO had been preparing the attack on Yugoslavia as early as
9 mid-1998?
10 A. Yes. Already in June, or even May, NATO had made official
11 announcements, and our participation, our discussions in NATO-Russia
12 discussions at defence minister level showed that NATO saw only two
13 options, either the capitulation of Belgrade or the military operation.
14 And when I was discussing within the NATO-Russia partnership, I tried to
15 present arguments to Mr. Solana and others. I asked them, "Why are you
16 delivering missiles?" And they said, "For the peacekeeping operation."
17 And some of them said, "Whenever I see Mr. Ivasov raise his hand, I lose
18 one hair off my head." So we did discuss these matters constantly.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ivasov. Safe trip home.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, that -- General, that concludes your
21 testimony. Thanks for coming to give it. You may now leave.
22 And we are adjourned -- Mr. Nice.
23 MR. NICE: Exhibits. We needn't detain the general from his
24 flight.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, you may leave. You may leave now.
Page 33870
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 MR. NICE: The four documents of the Serbian ministry and foreign
4 affairs I think need an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: 792. I think Judge Kwon already mentioned.
6 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. And the clips of extracts from
7 The Fall of Milosevic film.
8 THE REGISTRAR: 793.
9 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. Your Honours, I understand that,
10 as to next week, the witness listed for Tuesday is only available on
11 Tuesday. I've explained to Ms. Anoya that, as I see it, he is undoubtedly
12 a witness who will last more than one day and we're having a number of
13 these witnesses at the beginning of the Defence case. This is
14 Mr. Primakov, and if his evidence is going to cover broadly similar types
15 of topics as that which were covered in this witness's testimony, it's
16 highly unlikely that it will be concluded in one day. Indeed, we'd always
17 forecast him as a more substantial witness than this one.
18 I don't know if there's any possibility of his being extended from
19 the Tuesday to the Wednesday. Obviously we will take whatever is
20 available, but we would be assisted by knowing what the plans are. And if
21 not, who comes on the Wednesday?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you have given an estimate here of
23 2.5 hours for Mr. Primakov's -- who are we talking about?
24 MR. NICE: It's Mr. Primakov on the 30th, yes.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. 2.5 hours. Isn't that an underestimate?
Page 33871
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I abide by what I said. We had an
2 agreement that he would take up only one day, and I will take up only as
3 much time as I can, leaving Mr. Nice enough time for his cross.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the situation that there is some very pressing
5 business that would require him to return on Tuesday? I am thinking of
6 the possibility that he may run over to the next day.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is not possible to extend his
8 stay. And my examination-in-chief will not go beyond the time limit that
9 leaves Mr. Nice adequate time for cross-examination.
10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the accused seems to have missed the
11 point, I think. It is not for him to identify the amount of time I will
12 require for cross-examination. These are obviously potentially very
13 interesting witnesses and, depending on whether their evidence is
14 relevant, the Chamber may be assisted by more rather than less questions.
15 There may be time for adjusting downwards the amount of time I take of
16 later witnesses. It simply isn't open to the accused -- he doesn't run
17 the timetabling of the Court, and contingency plans ought to be made.
18 Mr. Primakov, I think, I'll just check, I think he now holds the
19 office of Chamber of Commerce, is it, or have I got it wrong? He was a
20 Prime Minister, but he's now something rather different. And before the
21 witness turns up to say in strict terms that he's only available for one
22 day and no more has to be a pretty good reason for it. It's for the
23 Chamber to decide --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I quite agree. Mr. Milosevic, I'm going to
25 suggest your approach to this is a little too mechanical. We have to see
Page 33872
1 what kind of evidence he's going to give, the kind of cross-examination
2 that will be required. There's a qualitative element that you can't
3 entirely predict, and I'd like you to have in mind that this witness may
4 run over to the following day. That will be --
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What Mr. Nice said is quite true.
6 Evgeni Primakov was Prime Minister. Before that he was foreign minister.
7 I'll not enumerate all his offices. It's not true that he works in the
8 ministry of commerce now. He is president of Russia's Chamber of Commerce
9 at this moment, the Chamber of Commerce of the Russian Federation.
10 But bearing in mind the time that I need, I didn't have a long
11 examination in mind, I thought I could manage within the time that I
12 planned, and I thought that leaves Mr. Nice enough time. I don't think it
13 was my duty to ask the witness to be able to stay for two days. I need
14 only half of one day, and that's why he was planned for only one day, the
15 day when he was scheduled. And I will try to use even less time than I
16 originally planned, to leave Mr. Nice even more than 60 per cent of my
17 time, but I don't think he's entitled to ask for more than 60 per cent.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, as I said, we can't approach it in such a
19 mechanical manner. What I say to you is that we'll hear Mr. Primakov on
20 Tuesday, and you should be alert to the possibility, and he should be
21 alert to the possibility that his evidence may run over to the following
22 day.
23 We are adjourned until Tuesday at 9.00 a.m.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 30th day of
Page 33873
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Page 33874
1 November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.
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