1 Wednesday, 1 December 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.
6 MR. NICE: Very short administrative matter, Your Honour. There
7 is forthcoming two witnesses of an expert character, Terzic and Popov by
8 surname, and I think that there may be outstanding applications and orders
9 to be made in respect of them. I'm not sure about the position.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have made an order which I think you should
11 get. I signed it yesterday.
12 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: For Terzic. And what's the other one?
14 MR. NICE: Popov.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: An order will be made in respect of the other
16 witness by Friday.
17 MR. NICE: That will enable us to deal with them in a timely way.
18 More generally, there was a -- I think an order, I haven't dug it
19 up yet - again, my mistake - that we should be having 50 witnesses pretty
20 well notified at a time. We've got the accused's list of witnesses until
21 the Christmas break, and there may be some spill-over, I dare say, of the
22 last couple of witnesses into the New Year, but our invitations to be
23 provided with a list of witnesses who are going to come after the
24 Christmas break has so far not been answered.
25 Now, if we are to prepare these witnesses we really do need
1 advance notice. We simply can't prepare witnesses without advance notice.
2 And of course as the Chamber will have, I dare say, forecast when looking
3 at the 65 ter summaries initially and will have discovered on seeing the
4 evidence given by witnesses foreshadowed only by a four- or five-line 65
5 ter summary, preparation is very difficult without the sort of detail that
6 would be provided by a Prosecution to a Defence.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: How many witnesses are on the accused's list to
9 MR. NICE: Only about another six, I think. Terzic, Popov --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: In any event, the accused will have to present
11 another list before the end of this session.
12 MR. NICE: Yes.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Another list of witnesses that will take us
14 through January and February and March.
15 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: And we'll make an order to that effect shortly.
17 Mr. Milosevic, call your next witness.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I call the next witness, I
20 just have a motion, a submission; namely, yesterday Mr. Primakov mentioned
21 his book titled Eight Months Plus, and part of the examination, especially
22 cross-examination, had to do with his conversation with Chirac pertaining
23 his visit to Belgrade and there also his conversations with Gore, with
24 Kofi Annan in that book. I'm not going to go into the details of those
25 conversations, however, this is a very useful material. Therefore, I was
1 going to ask you to admit that book into evidence as well, this book of
2 Mr. Primakov that he mentioned yesterday.
3 If you wish, if you accept this, I will prepare it and submit it
4 to the Chamber.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Submit it to us, and we'll consider it.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I call witness Vukasin
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm reminded that of course it's
9 only the parts of the book that are relevant that were adverted to that we
10 would consider admitting, so that you should identify those parts.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 MR. NICE: And of course the obvious point is that I wasn't
13 alerted to it and may have had several questions to ask arising out of it,
14 but perhaps I could see the book when it is admitted.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please be seated.
21 WITNESS: VUKASIN JOKANOVIC
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may begin, Mr. Milosevic.
24 Examined by Mr. Milosevic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jokanovic.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. Please tell us your full name and last name.
3 A. Vukasin Jokanovic.
4 Q. You were born and you lived for a long time in Kosovo and
5 Metohija. You were schooled there up until the university level. Please
6 tell us briefly something about your biography.
7 A. Yes. I spent most of my life in Kosovo. I lived and worked there
8 for a long time. I completed my elementary and secondary school in
9 Kosovo, and law school in Macedonia in Skopje. After completing the law
10 school I worked in Gnjilane for about 14 hours. Out of that time I spent
11 eight years as president of the municipality of Gnjilane. I had two terms
12 of four years, then I was a member of the Council of Kosovo and a
13 commission on the -- legislative commission of the province in Kosovo.
14 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, please slow down a little bit. And let us just
15 clarify: The municipality of Gnjilane is in Kosovo and Metohija?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. Please continue.
18 A. After my term, four-year term, as a member of the Presidency of
19 Kosovo, I was also a member of -- of another organ within the province of
20 Kosovo, and then I became a deputy in the Assembly of Kosovo. I served
21 two terms there, two one-year terms because, in accordance with our then
22 system, the terms lasted one year and anybody could be elected for two
24 In late 1989, I went to work in Belgrade. I was vice-president of
25 the Assembly of Serbia and also a delegate in the Assembly of Serbia.
1 Then I was a federal delegate and president of the Commission for Justice
2 and Administration. I was a minister in the government, and my last post
3 was the federal prosecutor of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I
4 retired two years ago.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic. At the time when the Assembly of Kosovo
6 debated and decided on the amendments of the constitution of Serbia in
7 1989, you were president of the Assembly of Kosovo and Metohija?
8 A. Yes, that's right. I was president of the Assembly during that
10 Q. This is a very important issue, and I want us to go into that. I
11 wanted to start off with that question, but since we need to watch a tape,
12 I was told by the registry that it would be better to put it off for a bit
13 later. So we will now turn to other issues and then come back to this
14 issue later.
15 Mr. Jokanovic, Kosovo and Metohija is an ethnically mixed
16 territory, or at least it used to be. What was the ethnic composition in
17 the organs in which you worked and generally in various other organs and
19 A. Ethnic composition in organs and organisations depended on the
20 ethnic composition of the population. That was one of the key positions
21 in the policy that was conducted in Kosovo at the time, so that in all
22 posts starting at the municipal level up until the level of the province,
23 and also at the republic level and federal level, depended on the ethnic
24 composition of the population. This is how it was in the organs, social
25 organs and socio-political organs and in the economy.
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 Q. When you were president of the Assembly in 1989, do you remember
2 who were main political figures in Kosovo and Metohija as well as do you
3 remember who were main political figures from Kosovo and Metohija in
4 Serbia and at the federation level?
5 A. Certainly I remember. I was president of the Assembly. My
6 vice-president was an Albanian. The general secretary was an Albanian.
7 The Assembly had three Chambers. Each Chamber had its president, out of
8 which two were Albanians and one Montenegrin. President of the Kosovo
9 Presidency, which was the highest collective organ, was also led by an
10 Albanian. President of the Province Committee was also an Albanian.
11 President of the Socialist Alliance, which was the largest social
12 organisation, was also an Albanian. President of the union was a Serb,
13 and president of the youth organisation was also an Albanian. And at the
14 level of the federation, the most responsible posts were generally held by
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic. Please tell me, when was the first time
17 that you were faced with the phenomenon of Albanian separatism in Kosovo?
18 Or let me rephrase it: With the phenomenon of the organised Albanian
19 separatism in Kosovo.
20 A. The first time I was faced with the organised expression of
21 Albanian separatism and nationalism was in 1968. That year, in several
22 cities in Kosovo, demonstrations were organised. They were also organised
23 in Gnjilane, which is where I worked and lived. These demonstrations were
24 held on the 27th of November, on the eve of the state holiday of Albania,
25 which is on the 28th of November. That was my first encounter with the
1 organised activities, with demonstrations held in the streets, with people
2 carrying well-known slogans.
3 Q. Please tell us in more detail what those demonstrations were like.
4 What was their objective, and what was their scope?
5 A. The main objective of the demonstrations could be seen from the
6 slogans which were shouted. The slogans were "Kosovo Republic," and
7 "Unification." These slogans dominated, and there were other slogans as
9 The demonstrations I witnessed myself in Gnjilane mostly included
10 younger people in the streets. And later on, through our political work,
11 we learned who the organisers were, whom we criticised. These people were
12 in the vicinity of the demonstrators. And there were also a lot of people
13 standing there just out of curiosity and watching it.
14 The demonstrations in Gnjilane started in front of the secondary
15 school centre, then they passed through the entire city and went to the
16 bus station.
17 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, I have to interrupt you to save time. You don't
18 have to give us very detailed description. Please tell us, what were the
19 main slogans?
20 A. The main slogans were "Kosovo Republic" and "Unification."
21 Q. Is it true, this information that I have, that the demonstrations
22 were very severe in Gnjilane, Urosevac, and so on? So in Kosovo, but the
23 demonstrations were also held in Western Macedonia, especially in Tetovo.
24 A. Yes. The most -- the most important demonstrations were held
25 there in Gnjilane and so on, and also in Western Macedonia, in Tetovo,
1 where the police organs of the Republic of Macedonia acted very severely.
2 Q. Please tell us, in 1968, when these demonstrations were held, how
3 did official organs qualify the demonstrations?
4 A. In the municipality where I worked and at the province level, the
5 official organs qualified these demonstrations as being against the
6 constitutional system, against the equality of nations and nationalities,
7 against brotherhood and unity, as we used to say then, and it was also
8 qualified that those demonstrations were aimed at destroying our
9 constitutional systems, the system of self-management, and all other
10 values of our then system, including the policies of Comrade Tito as we
11 used to call him.
12 Q. These events in 1968, were they covered in the media?
13 A. Very briefly. There was an attempt to cover that up. Those were
14 the times and the circumstances. It was believed that something like that
15 could not happen in the socialist Yugoslavia when Tito was at the zenith
16 of his power and authority. So there was an attempt to cover this up and
17 it was basically not covered in the press. However, throughout the
18 municipality where I worked and I was politically active, there were
19 various meetings organised. So together with Albanians, I went out in the
20 field to explain the essence of those demonstrations and to criticise them
22 Q. Very well. So the media tried to cover up those events. Do you
23 know, was the army used on that occasion?
24 A. The army was not used in Gnjilane. However, it was used in
25 Pristina and Urosevac, as far as I know. And I know that because in the
1 following days I travelled to Pristina and I came back through Urosevac.
2 Q. We don't need to go into detail. So your answer is yes, the army
3 was used.
4 A. Yes, to a lesser extent than in other demonstrations that
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Jokanovic, if you could tell us what you were, by
7 profession, in 1968.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1968, I was assistant to the
9 director of the medical centre in Gnjilane, in charge of legal and
10 economic issues at the medical centre which comprised hospital, health
11 centre, pharmacy, and other medical services institutions. I was also
12 politically active. I was also a member of the League of Communists.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Please tell me, you mentioned the position of President Tito. How
16 did the Albanians view President Tito?
17 A. Comrade Tito, as we called him, visited Kosovo on a number of
18 occasions. He was always greeted by large numbers of people. Schools
19 would shut down, the companies as well, so the students and everybody
20 would go out into the streets, and there was this wish to express love the
21 people had for Tito by showing that a large number of people were in the
22 streets to greet him.
23 However, in addition to that, there were some individuals who
24 insulted Tito by writing various slogans, and who expressed a negative
25 attitude towards him, which was a result of the Albanian influence, where
1 at the time Hoxha was praised and Tito was considered a revisionist with
2 respect to the communist system in power in Albania. And the
3 demonstrations that were organised then and later were mostly of the
4 Marxist-Leninist character.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I want to ask Mr. Jokanovic a question. How did
6 the army deal with the demonstrations in 1968, and in particular, were
7 there any injuries? Was there any loss of life?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The army of Yugoslavia was not used
9 to break up the demonstrations, nor was it used for -- nor was the power
10 and force used. The army was there just to demonstrate its force and to
11 have a psychological effect insofar as the vehicles passed through and the
12 army was used to secure various facilities.
13 At the time, the demonstrators were not ready to clash with the
14 army. They did not want to provoke the army, and there was quite a
15 different situation with the police. I don't know if I answered your
16 question sufficiently.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you did. So the demonstrations did not last
18 very long?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in 1968, they didn't last long.
20 But when the military forces appeared, especially in places where the
21 demonstrations were larger and more aggressive, these demonstrations were
22 suppressed. Tito was still alive, and his speeches are well known, when
23 he addressed the public and said, "Let not the enemies of our system think
24 that we have thrown a spear into the thorns," and he said that Enver Hoxha
25 should stop wielding a rusty sword from the outside throughout Kosovo.
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. Robinson?
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. What was the -- what were the developments in the province
5 concerning the promotion or the spread of autonomy after World War II?
6 A. According to the 1946 constitution, the province, which was called
7 at the time the Autonomous Region of Kosovo and Metohija, while Vojvodina
8 was a province. The 1963 constitution, however, then renamed the region
9 into a province. So it became an autonomous province. Then in the
10 amendments of 1968 and 1971, the position of the province was expanded in
11 terms of expanding its authorities and functions so that later this was
12 then rounded off in the constitution of 1974.
13 The 1974 constitution gave the province practically all of the
14 functions which the republics had. Not all of them but practically all of
15 them in the Yugoslavia at the time.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic. Did the demonstrations in 1968 produce
17 some kind of effect on the position of the province?
18 A. Yes, they did have an effect in that sense, because in order to
19 stabilise the situation in Kosovo on a more permanent basis, which could
20 be heard in a lot of meetings, the demonstrators' demands were met, or
21 some of those demands were met, so that those amendments of 1968, 1969,
22 and 1971 practically met, not all but quite a lot of, those demands,
23 giving a broader autonomy and making the province more and more equal to a
25 And in 1969, a decision of the Socialist Alliance of Yugoslavia
1 permitted the use of the national flag to the Albanians, and that national
2 flag was identical to the state flag of the Peoples Republic of Albania.
3 Before that, it was not allowed to put the flag up. And those who did
4 that usually did that on the 28th for their national holiday, and those
5 people were fined. The use of the flag after that became quite
6 widespread, and it served to satisfy feelings of national belongingness.
7 There was a lot of abuse in the use of this national flag which was often
8 used in order to provoke other people in the province, primarily Serbs,
9 Montenegrins, and others.
10 Q. Do I remember rightly, Mr. Jokanovic, this was not the traditional
11 national flag of the Albanians but the flag of the neighbouring state of
12 Albania? But you know this better than I do.
13 As far as I remember, the difference between the two was the
14 traditional flag has the two-headed eagle, black on a red background, and
15 the neighbouring country's flag on top of that was identical but also had
16 a five-pointed star on top. So they didn't adopt their traditional
17 national flag but the neighbouring country's flag.
18 A. Yes. This was the state flag of the Republic of Albania, with the
19 two-headed eagle and the five-pointed star. If there are any problems
20 about that, I could provide more details about the way the flag looked.
21 There were attempts to change something in that flag to place the
22 Yugoslav tricolour banner in the corner, indicating that these Albanians
23 were in Yugoslavia, but this was something that was not accepted.
24 Q. Unfortunately, we don't have time to spend so much on the flag,
25 but you know so much about the former Yugoslavia and the situation in
1 Kosovo, and it would take us a long time to go through all of that.
2 What were the powers of Serbia in the province?
3 A. The constitution of 1974 practically denied Serbia all rights in
4 Kosovo. The province became practically equal to the republic, both the
5 province of Kosovo and the province of Vojvodina. There were only two
6 differences: One was that the constitution in Serbia had Article 300,
7 making for some singular or united solutions for the whole of the
8 republic; and the second was that the Council of States and Republics had
9 12 delegates while the number of deputies from the provinces were eight.
10 This was a symbolic difference in the numbers, but the rights that these
11 delegations had were absolutely the same, both in the federal Chamber,
12 there were 30 and 20 deputies.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic. At that time, and now we're talking
14 about the period after 1968, 1974, when all of these rights were changed,
15 were there any pressures towards Serbs, Montenegrins, Turks, Romas,
16 Goranians, and what was the attitude towards the Albanian population?
17 A. After these demonstrations, Serbs, Montenegrins, and other
18 non-Albanians had a feeling of uncertainty, quite rightly. This appeared
19 because there were pressures towards the moving out of Serbs and
20 Montenegrins. These were direct and indirect pressures. So these
21 demonstrations from 1968 disrupted the interethnic relations and caused
22 people to move out. This was a negative consequence. And also there were
23 different forms of pressures going in this direction.
24 Q. In view of the pressures and the violence which occurred against
25 Serbs, Montenegrins, Muslims, Turks, Romas, did Serbia have an obligation
1 to protect the rights and freedoms of all of its citizens throughout its
2 territory? Was that one of its constitutional duties, including the
3 province? And also, that constitutional order, did it also have the means
4 to fulfil this duty?
5 A. According to its own constitution, Serbia was obliged to protect
6 the rights of the working people and the citizens throughout the territory
7 of the republic. There was such a provision in the Serbian constitution.
8 However, the Republic of Serbia did not have the instruments nor the
9 authority to protect these rights.
10 Q. Since --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if I could interrupt briefly. That
12 question started, "In view of the pressures and the violence which
13 occurred against Serbs ..." Now, I don't recollect you speaking about
14 violence against Serbs. Have you mentioned that so far?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean here while I'm
16 testifying? Are you thinking about violence against Serbs and Croats and
17 the pressure to have them move out?
18 This started from the early 1960s and became more intense after
19 1968, and then increased even more after 1971. First of all, this
20 pressure was directed against Serbs and Montenegrins but also towards
21 others, towards Turks. Turks from Kosovo also moved out. I can give you
22 specific example. A village near Gnjilane, near Kosovo, called Dobrcane,
23 which was exclusively populated by Turks had its own elementary school,
24 eight-year elementary school, where classes were in Turkish. Later, there
25 were no Turks there at all because they had all moved to Turkey.
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. When did they move out?
3 A. This was a gradual process. There was no collective movement of
4 the population, but it was family by family; one family left, followed by
5 another family. And this happened in a period from 1968 up until sometime
6 in the 1980s, and I think until up to about some ten years ago, perhaps
7 there were two or three Turkish families left in that village, which in
8 the meantime had integrated through marriage and in other ways, attended
9 school in Albanian, and were integrated into a different kind of life in
10 comparison to the earlier period when the village was exclusively
11 inhabited by Turkish nationals.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Milosevic, please.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is no need to keep turning the
14 microphone off.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, could you please tell me what the situation was in
17 the judiciary.
18 A. The judiciary in Yugoslavia was organised in Yugoslavia in the
19 republics and in the provinces in exactly the same way. The judiciary
20 functions were at the level of the province. The province had municipal
21 courts, district courts, and supreme courts. There was the Supreme Court
22 of Kosovo. That was the highest instance in order to achieve citizens'
23 rights and to resolve different disputes and questions from civil law and
24 other kinds of law, so that those citizens who felt their rights were
25 violated, according to the law and the constitution, could not resort to
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 the courts of Serbia, they had to remain in the provincial court.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic. I have to cut you off; we do not have
3 too much time. Could you please tell us what the situation was with the
4 executive and administrative powers or authorities.
5 A. The constitution --
6 Q. Well, we all understand the position regarding the constitution,
7 but what was the actual situation?
8 A. The executive authority was completely under the provincial
9 organs. The provincial bodies were the only ones in charge of
10 implementing the laws, the provincial laws and republican laws, if a law
11 applied throughout the whole territory, as well as federal laws.
12 Q. Thank you. In light of what you have said, that the provincial
13 authorities were exclusively authorised, how do you look at the assertion
14 in the following paragraph of the so-called indictment? Paragraph 80
15 states: "Due to political turmoil, on 3rd of March, 1989 the SFRY
16 Presidency declared that the situation in the province had deteriorated
17 and had become a threat to the constitution, integrity and sovereignty of
18 the country. The government then imposed special measures which assigned
19 responsibility for public security to the federal government instead of
20 the government of Serbia".
21 Please pay attention to what I have just quoted. This is an
22 excerpt from this document. So "... assigned responsibility for public
23 security to the federal government instead of the government of Serbia."
24 End of quote.
25 Could you please give us your comments on what I have just read to
2 A. The first part seems to be all right. These special measures were
3 introduced and the political and security situation did deteriorate, but
4 this last part is completely incorrect because the federal government
5 could not assign as they said that there.
6 Q. No. The full sentence states as follows: "The government then
7 imposed special measures which assigned responsibility for public security
8 to the federal government instead of the government of Serbia."
9 So the federal government transferred the responsibility for
10 public security from the government of Serbia to the federal government.
11 A. Well, it could not have done that, because Serbia did not have
12 authority in that area. It could only have transferred this
13 responsibility from the provincial organs.
14 Q. So Serbia did not have the authority nor implemented the authority
15 which the federal government could have transferred from Serbia to the
16 federal government.
17 A. Yes, that is correct. It did not have those powers. If the
18 Honourable Court allows me, I could say a little bit more about that.
19 Q. If you believe that it is important, please go ahead, but please
20 try to be brief.
21 A. I would just like to mention one fact. When there were
22 demonstrations in 1981, the Serbian police offered to help the police of
23 Kosovo, but the provincial organs did not permit Serbian police to help
24 its colleagues. So that the police of Serbia, for days, was near the
25 administrative border of Kosovo, in a place called Rudare, and was waiting
1 for the outcome of the situation. Only later was it allowed to a part of
2 these forces to come in, but not as part -- as Serbian forces but as part
3 of the joint Yugoslav forces comprising Slovenians, Croats, people from --
4 members of the police force from Vojvodina, Macedonia, and so on.
5 Q. So what you said about the government imposing special measures,
6 assigning the responsibility from the government of Serbia to the federal
7 government regarding security measures is incorrect.
8 A. Yes, it is incorrect because it is something that did not exist
9 and could not have been transferred or assigned to somebody else.
10 Q. Yes. That is quite clear.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'd like to be clear about this.
12 Who had the authority, the constitutional authority, for public
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The constitutional authority for
15 security in Kosovo and Metohija lay with the organs of Kosovo and Metohija
16 in accordance with the Kosovo constitution, with its laws, and in
17 accordance with the constitution of Yugoslavia. Because the
18 implementation of all the laws and the preservation of peace and order was
19 under the jurisdiction of the province bodies, the provincial secretariat
20 for internal affairs and the provincial security service, which was
21 separate from the Serbian service of the same kind. It was independent,
22 and it had an equal standing as the Serbian Security Service and the
23 internal affairs services.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. So what you say is that it would
25 not have been legally possible for the federal government to transfer the
1 powers to Serbia.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, Mr. Robinson. I quoted --
3 very well. Yes. It will be clear. I would like to make it clear.
4 I quoted here their paper here which they called the indictment,
5 which also has some more serious untruths than this one, but it says:
6 "The government then imposed its special measures which assigned
7 responsibility for public security to the federal government instead of
8 the government of Serbia." But this is not true, because the government
9 of Serbia did not carry out any functions in the first place for the
10 federal government to be able to take over these services upon itself.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand that.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this clear? So it was not in a
13 position to assign functions to somebody else which Serbia did not have in
14 the first place. It did not have them and it did not implement them.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: That was the constitutional de jure position, but
16 did it in fact happen?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, de facto it had no powers
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This de jure situation was also the
21 de facto situation with one single difference; namely, after the 1981
22 demonstrations, the federal authorities established joint police forces,
23 taking forces from all the republics and the province of Vojvodina in
24 order to assist the Kosovo organs. Within those joint forces, there were
25 also forces from Serbia under the command of the chief of that staff who
1 was appointed by the competent ministry. So it was not within the
2 competency of Serbia.
3 I don't know if this is clear enough. I can try again.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, did you, as provincial secretary for legislation
6 and general administration, because that's the post you occupied at the
7 time, take part in the work on the harmonisation of those laws under
8 Article 300 of the Serbian constitution? In other words, to cut a long
9 story short, it was the only article of the constitution which enabled the
10 Republic of Serbia to exercise certain functions on the entirety of its
11 territory on the condition of agreement with the province. So even that
12 provision was not quite enabling for Serbia, but under Article 300, we
13 were at least in a position to reach agreement with the province.
14 A. From 1978 to 1982, I was the provincial secretary for legislation
15 and administration. Pursuant to Article 300, some issues were included
16 that were regulated in a uniform way for the entire territory of Serbia.
17 However, this Article 300 was rather vague and generally phrased so that
18 these issues that were uniformly regulated applied only to the basic
19 principles and uniform fundaments, and it was very difficult to determine
20 exactly how far these basic principles went. And as a result, the
21 negotiations with the representatives of Vojvodina and Kosovo were
22 difficult, lengthy, and often unsuccessful. Agreement was very difficult
23 to reach.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Jokanovic, before going further, if you could
25 remind me of the content of the Article 300 of the Serbian constitution.
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the Article 300 of the
2 constitution of Serbia with me, but it enumerates issues that may be
3 uniformly regulated within the Republic of Serbia. However, this Article
4 300 was unclear, vague, and phrased in very general terms. So any attempt
5 to interpret it resulted in diametrically opposed positions. In
6 controversy, in other words.
7 And may I add to this?
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. If you could clarify the meaning of "uniformly
9 regulated within Republic of Serbia." If you would elaborate on that
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can ask a question of this
12 witness, or a set of questions. I think this will be a more efficient way
13 of dealing with it.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. This Article 300, was it the only article in the constitution of
16 Serbia which allowed something to be uniformly regulated within the whole
18 A. Yes. There was also Article 305, but it only provided for the
19 possibility of similar or equal regulation in the republic and the
21 Q. All right. Under that Article 300, the parliament of Serbia could
22 regulate certain things in general terms on the whole territory. However,
23 that had to be agreed with the representatives of the province before it
24 is passed?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Let me pick up on the question by Judge Kwon. For instance, the
2 citizenship of the Republic of Serbia, because there was no citizenship of
3 the province; right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. So the citizenship of the Republic of Serbia, they insisted that
6 they should decide in Kosovo and Metohija about the citizenship of the
7 Republic of Serbia.
8 A. I was involved for a long time in discussions and debates about
9 this law.
10 Q. Please say whether it is correct or not and then tell us the rest.
11 A. It is correct that the provincial authorities demanded that they
12 should decide on the citizenship of the Republic of Serbia proceeding from
13 what I said before, namely, that it is the provincial authorities who were
14 in charge of the enforcement of all laws, including this one.
15 Q. So tell me, what was the point? This is a very general point:
16 What was the point in the insistence of provincial authorities that the
17 province should decide about the citizenship of the Republic of Serbia
18 relating to the citizens on its territory?
19 A. There were two main reasons. They wanted to demonstrate that the
20 province was practically a republic. They wanted to put a mark of
21 equality between the province and the republic. That was one reason.
22 The second reason was that if the province had been enabled to do
23 that, then they would have been able to resolve certain issues, including
24 this one. They would have been enabled -- they would have been able to
25 give citizenship to some immigrants who had come to Kosovo during the
1 anti-fascist war, to Kosovo from Albania and remained there, and a variety
2 of other immigrants.
3 Q. So this second objective was very pragmatic: They wanted to have
4 competency over their citizenship of Serbia in order to give citizenship
5 to various immigrants from Albania.
6 A. Yes, that's precisely where our differences lay.
7 Q. Was that correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct. That was one of the reasons. The first
9 reason, as I said, was they wanted to demonstrate their powers as a state,
10 and the second was that they wanted to decide as a province in the
11 province who would have citizenship and who wouldn't.
12 Q. Tell me, when did Albanians start to immigrate into Kosovo? Just
13 let me say that I have no historical background to this question. When
14 did this immigration of Albanians into Kosovo begin?
15 Let us skip this great number of Albanians who were moved to
16 Kosovo by Mussolini and who remained there after the Second World War.
17 A. After the comintern resolution of 1948 and the famous "No" that
18 Tito said to Stalin when he was proclaimed a revisionist, a considerable
19 number of Albanians moved to Kosovo, fleeing this Stalinist system. They
20 came one by one but also with their entire families, with whole herds of
21 sheep and a lot of equipment, and they were very cordially welcomed
22 because it was in the political interest --
23 Q. Let me interrupt you. They came en masse in this period. Please
24 answer me with a yes or no, and then if there is an explanation to follow,
25 give it later.
1 Did they come en masse?
2 A. Not at the beginning, but later, yes.
3 Q. Thank you. In view of the hard-line regime of Enver Hoxha and the
4 police control over the citizenry in Albania, was it possible to easily
5 cross without any problem the Albanian border with whole families,
6 furniture, herds of cattle, et cetera? Was that possible or not?
7 A. As far as I know, it was not possible.
8 Q. Does it mean that they were moved to Kosovo and Metohija in a
9 planned way also by the Enver Hoxha regime?
10 A. That was tolerated. I don't know if there was a plan behind it,
11 but it was tolerated, because they did come and they were welcomed. I
12 don't know if the border was controlled, then there could have also been a
13 plan behind it, but they did come en masse.
14 Q. You said they were welcomed, well-received in Kosovo.
15 A. Yes, they were. They also received some allowances and financial
16 support, and the objective was to integrate them as fast as possible into
17 the Kosovo society, to give them employment, and there were even
19 Q. Let us clarify one thing. Is it true that the then-government of
20 Kosovo, such as the Ministry of Internal Affairs, for instance, or correct
21 me, whichever other ministry, repurchased estates of Serbs and
22 Montenegrins who moved out of Kosovo and gave them free of charge to
23 Albanians who had moved into Kosovo?
24 A. Yes, that's correct, and if you allow me one more --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.
1 MR. NICE: Either leading or tendentious. It may not matter
2 because it may be that had we seen a statement of the witness in advance
3 some of these matters would be non-contentious, but there is a balance to
4 be drawn between leading questions that are acceptable and those that
5 really may go to the heart of the issue. So the last one, for example,
6 where there was a suggestion that these things were repurchased and given
7 free of charge to Albanians, it's not something I know about and therefore
8 it shouldn't really be asked in that form.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have discussed this before, Mr. Milosevic.
10 You're not to ask leading questions.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, there are many things
12 in this wide world that your wisdom does not even imagine, Dear Horatio.
13 I was trying to quote Shakespeare. I don't even expect you to know
14 anything about this. That's one thing.
15 And second, it is not my obligation to take prior statements of a
16 witness and disclose them to Mr. Nice. He should not be wasting my
17 time --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I stopped you because you're making a speech.
19 The rules here prohibit leading questions. And, Mr. Milosevic, there is a
20 matter that I should bring to your attention: You're examining this
21 witness, and the purpose of the examination is to assist the Chamber.
22 It's not a private dialogue between yourself and the witness.
23 The constitutional issues are important issues, the question of
24 the distribution of powers between the federal government and the
25 provinces. You ought to have had the constitution here to show us and
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 have it translated. So, for example, I'm interested in seeing what powers
2 are set out in Article 300.
3 The purpose of your examination is to persuade us, and you ought
4 to have had that here. I think -- is it probably -- is it an exhibit?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson --
6 MR. NICE: Unfortunately -- an exhibit and I think the exhibit
7 number is --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice is speaking.
10 MR. NICE: Is 526, tab 1. I think that's the exhibit. But the
11 articles that are under consideration are not included in the part of the
12 document that's been prepared as an exhibit thus far, or certainly are not
13 in English. They may be, conceivably, in B/C/S.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: So --
15 JUDGE KWON: And if you could check Exhibit 132. It says
16 Constitution of Serbia, but it's a later version maybe.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: The point is, Mr. Milosevic, in presenting your
18 evidence and in examining the witness, you must have documents available
19 for us so that when he speaks of Article 300, we can be looking at it and
20 looking at it in the English. That is the way you will strengthen your
21 case. The presentation of your case would be advanced tremendously if you
22 do it in the right way.
23 My colleague and myself were just saying to ourselves privately
24 that we are somewhat at a loss in understanding the constitutional points
25 that have been raised because we don't have the documents in front of us.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, you will allow that I
2 believe that the issue of the language of the constitution cannot be in
3 dispute. It is the wording of the constitution that was passed and in
4 force at the time, and if you need it, I will tender it as an exhibit
5 through one of the following witnesses. We have Professor Ratko Markovic
6 coming, and I'll introduce that text through him. No problem.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: You ought to have -- you ought to have introduced
8 it through this witness, because he's giving evidence that relates to the
9 constitution. Don't wait for Professor Ratko Markovic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue?
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Very well. In order to avoid leading questions, Mr. Jokanovic,
13 how were Albanian immigrants received at the time?
14 A. They were well received. When farmers from Albania moved in, who
15 couldn't find jobs in enterprises, it was necessary to repurchase land so
16 that they could engage in farming. Therefore, land was repurchased from
17 Serbs and Montenegrins who were moving out of Kosovo, and this entire
18 land, complete with equipment, was given to immigrants who came to
20 I'll give you an example. In my neighbouring village, Grmovo, the
21 village called Drobes, the land was repurchased from the Nikoletic family
22 and another family. They live nowadays in Kraljevo, whereas these two
23 villages are inhabited by those immigrants who came from Albania, and the
24 funding was provided through the provincial Secretariat for Internal
1 Q. Can I note then that you said that the police of Kosovo
2 repurchased arable land from Serbs and Montenegrins and gave it free of
3 charge to Albanian immigrants who came to Kosovo?
4 A. The contracts were made out between the republican -- sorry, the
5 provincial Secretariat for Internal Affairs and these immigrant farmers.
6 It was probably budgetary funding that was paid out through the provincial
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic. I will quote another paragraph from
9 this so-called indictment. Paragraph 75. It goes as follows: "During
10 the 1980s, Serbs voiced concern about discrimination against them by the
11 Kosovo Albanian led provincial government while Kosovo Albanians voiced
12 concern about economic underdevelopment and dependence and called for a
13 greater political liberalisation and republican status for Kosovo. From
14 1981 onwards, Kosovo Albanians staged demonstrations which were suppressed
15 by the SFRY military and police forces of Serbia."
16 All right. So I quoted this verbatim. Could you please answer
17 and tell me what you know about this.
18 A. As for the discrimination mentioned in the first sentence, that's
19 a mild term. There were various pressures, attacks, crimes against
20 property, against person, beatings, rapes, and so on.
21 As for the second claim, that Albanians sought greater political
22 liberalisation, I don't think this is a proper term. What they wanted was
23 secession from Serbia. They wanted Kosovo to become a republic.
24 And as for the demonstrations from 1981 onwards being suppressed
25 by the military and police from Serbia, that's not true. The army did
1 demonstrate its force but never had any clashes with the demonstrators at
2 the time because, as I said, the demonstrators tried not to provoke the
3 army and not to even mention the police of Serbia, because as I've said
4 before, the Serbian police had no competencies in Kosovo.
5 Later on, when the joint forces from all other republics were
6 established, yes, they were present in Kosovo up until 1990.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if I could be clear about something then
8 in regard to that answer. If all they wanted was to become a republic,
9 and if as a province they had all the powers of a republic, what was the
10 point of the demonstrations?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To secede entirely from Serbia and
12 become an independent state, which is their current goal nowadays as well,
13 the main objective of political forces and political parties in Kosovo
14 nowadays. They didn't want to be either within Serbia or within
15 Yugoslavia. That was their goal.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I misunderstood your answer, because I assumed by
17 "republic" you were referring to a Yugoslav republic. Thank you.
18 JUDGE KWON: And if you could explain more about the joint forces
19 you mentioned from all other republics. Could you elaborate on that.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. When in 1981 Serbian
21 police was not allowed to assist their colleagues in Kosovo and Metohija
22 police, they looked for a solution how to suppress demonstrations, because
23 Kosovo police could not deal with it alone. Therefore, a compromise was
24 found to engage members of police in all other republics and provinces,
25 meaning Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Macedonia, and
2 I can name specific cases where what police members were deployed.
3 In Lipljan municipality there were policemen from Vojvodina. In my
4 municipality we had policemen from Croatia. In other municipalities there
5 were policemen from Bosnia and Herzegovina. So these joined forces helped
6 the Kosovo police in order to stabilise the situation and not allow any
7 further destruction of property and everything else that comes along with
9 Q. Which is to say, Mr. Jokanovic, based on this quotation where I
10 read out their text to you about police forces of Serbia suppressing those
11 demonstrations, that is not true; is that right?
12 A. Well, I don't want this to be taken as a leading question,
13 therefore I said that the forces of Serbia were not allowed to go to
14 Kosovo. They could only go to Kosovo if they were joined by forces,
15 police forces, from all other republics. Therefore, it was not the
16 Serbian police who suppressed the demonstrations, no. It was the Kosovo
17 police and joint police forces from all other republics.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic.
19 JUDGE KWON: When were the police forces established?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These joint forces were established
21 after 1981, because the demonstrations in 1981 could not be suppressed by
22 Kosovo police alone. And therefore, if I remember correctly, on the 1st
23 of March the competent organ within the province issued a decision to
24 involve the army and to have tanks roll through the streets. And in 1981,
25 the army did do that. The tanks came out into the streets, and the key
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 organs in Kosovo were involved because Kosovo police was unable to deal
2 with it.
3 In the evening on that day, planes flew over Pristina, and the
4 freedom of movement was limited. I was a member of the Kosovo Council at
5 the time, and I can show you the ID that I had issued to me during that
6 period of time allowing me freedom of movement. Would you like me to show
7 you that?
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Yes, please go ahead. That was the ID that you were issued with
10 at that time.
11 A. I don't know where I should put it.
12 Q. You can put it on the ELMO. The usher will help you.
13 A. We can see what it says here, that this is an official ID.
14 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues]... ELMO.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Leje zyrtare" means official pass.
16 You have the text in Albanian then in Serbian after that. Then you can
17 see my name, and then underneath it says that I'm involved in executing
18 certain tasks assigned to me by the Executive Council of the Assembly of
19 the province of Kosovo, as a result of which "he should be given access
20 and freedom of movement."
21 There were some announcements that demonstrators wanted to take up
22 key facilities in Kosovo so that even as a member of the Executive Council
23 of Kosovo, I could not have entered any important building without this
24 special pass.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do you need to take -- to further
1 examine in ID, to have it tendered into evidence, or is this sufficient?
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Please tell me, Mr. Jokanovic, what was the scope and what was the
4 nature of the demonstrations of Albanians in 1981?
5 A. The demonstrations in 1981, in view of the numbers of people
6 participating and the aggression expressed were much broader than the 1968
7 demonstrations but can still be qualified as a continuity of action,
8 because the demands and slogans were the same: "Kosovo Republic" and
9 "Unification," except that in 1981 there were many more people
10 participating in the demonstrations and more aggression was expressed. So
11 that in 1981, there were victims both among demonstrators and law
12 enforcement personnel. I can even give you the numbers, if you're
14 Nine demonstrators were killed in the demonstrations, two members
15 of the organ of the internal affairs, and dozens of policemen were also
16 injured, as were the demonstrators. Several vehicles were set on fire,
17 shop windows were broken, so there was quite a lot of property damage.
18 The demonstrations became most aggressive on the 2nd April of 1981
19 when the army was called to come in to protect the key facilities and
20 institutions within the province.
21 Q. Where were the fiercest demonstrations held?
22 A. In Pristina on the 2nd of April, because in addition to
23 demonstrations organised in other cities, on that day, from other cities,
24 from Podujevo and other towns, demonstrators converged in Pristina, and it
25 was very difficult to stop them. The forces of Kosovo police were unable
1 to stop them. And it wasn't until the army was involved to come in and
2 secure the key facilities and the planes that flew over the town that the
3 demonstrations were calmed down. That was towards the evening, around
4 8.00 p.m.
5 Q. All right, Mr. Jokanovic. What was the attitude of political
6 organs with respect to demonstrations? When I say "political organs," I'm
7 referring both to provincial, to republic, and federal organs. What was
8 their attitude?
9 A. In the beginning, the attitude was similar to the one in 1968.
10 They tried to cover up, to present this as a rebellion of students who
11 were unhappy with their accommodation and so on. However, when the
12 demonstrations escalated and when the leadership saw that their functions,
13 posts, and privileges were jeopardised, then the organs of the province
14 started condemning those demonstrations in very severe terms. One of the
15 worst qualifications in the then-system was the qualifications of
16 counterrevolution. One of the closest associates of Tito was so fierce in
17 his condemnations that he said that these demonstrators were the worst
18 enemy of the Albanian people and that they were thugs.
19 Q. And there are documents which can prove that?
20 A. Yes, that's right. And then other organs also joined in
21 condemning the demonstrations. The Province Committee, Central Committee
22 of the League of Communists, and they also wanted the provincial
23 leadership to be made accountable for that.
24 Q. Was Enver Hoxha mentioned during those demonstrations, or any
25 other Albanian figures?
1 A. Well, some historical figures were mentioned. The unification of
2 Kosovo was mentioned. Then there was the slogan "Kosovo Republic." So
3 these 1981 demonstrations were identical to the 1968 demonstrations in the
4 demands expressed.
5 Q. At the time, Serbia had no competencies, nor could Serbia have
6 suppressed those demonstrations.
7 A. Yes, that's right. Serbia had no competencies, and it could not
8 have suppressed the demonstrations, which cause great dissatisfaction
9 among the citizenry who asked publicly, what was the role of Serbia?
10 Could Serbia defend its territory integrity, its citizens, state and
11 private property? And it was precisely then that demands and criticism
12 were voiced, saying that the constitution ought to be amended, this
13 constitution that does not allow the republic to protect its citizens and
14 the property in its own territory and to protect its own territorial
16 Q. All right, Mr. Jokanovic. So the paragraph 75 is this bit that
17 says that the police forces of Serbia suppressed the demonstrations is
19 A. Yes, that's right. It's incorrect because the police forces of
20 Serbia did not suppress it.
21 Q. Yes. You explained to us how the issue of suppressing the
22 demonstrations was resolved. Were you specific enough when you said who
23 was in command of these joint police forces that came to Kosovo?
24 A. I can't remember the name of the person who was in command, but he
25 was someone from Croatia, whereas Franc, a Slovene, was in charge of
1 Special Police Unit, he was in charge of an action which -- an operation
2 in the village of Prekaze where some people shut themselves in a house and
3 the police had to deal with that. The fire was opened. So this special
4 unit, Special Police Unit from Slovenia, was led by the person, a Slovene
5 named Franz. It was a violent operation, helicopters were called in, and
6 those who put up resistance were fired upon by the police. The fire was
7 opened from the helicopter as well.
8 Q. That was in Prekaze in 1981?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. And in Prekaze again in 1998, fire was opened against the police
11 and there was a conflict except that some aspects were different. Do you
12 remember that?
13 A. I remember the first case in Prekaze because I was living in
14 Kosovo at the time, and as a member of the Executive Council, together
15 with some other leaders, I went to that village and I saw the house
16 involved. And as for the other instance that you mentioned, I didn't go
17 there personally.
18 Q. All right. I'm not going to put any further questions, but let me
19 just tell you that the second case in Prekaze is identical to the first
20 one, practically a twin of the first one. But please tell me --
21 JUDGE KWON: For the record, could you give me the year again?
22 The transcript says 1998. The year in Prekaze.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What Mr. Jokanovic described in
24 Prekaze happened in 1981, whereas I mentioned Prekaze and the event that
25 took place there in 1998. The same event happened there in 1998 when the
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 group led by Adem Jashari was liquidated. The same group that fired on
2 police members, and a lot of citizens were killed there. That was in
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In 1981, the special police of the federal -- the Special Police
6 Unit of the federal police was engaged there, and it was under the command
7 of a Slovene officer; is that right?
8 A. Yes, that's right. It was called Special Police Unit there, and
9 today it would have been called Anti-Terrorist Unit or something like
11 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, please tell me --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Again, on the subject you've been dealing with,
13 when you talked, Mr. Jokanovic about fire being opened, or someone opening
14 fire in 1981, were you referring to the police being attacked or were you
15 referring to the police themselves opening fire?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1981, firearms were used both by
17 the demonstrators. The demonstrators were the first to use weapons.
18 According to the statement of Stane Dolenc, a Slovene, who was the person
19 most responsible for security in Yugoslavia.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, you're a politician, and you speak in general
22 terms. You said, for example, that Stane Dolenc was the most responsible
23 for. Why don't you say that Stane Dolenc was the federal police
24 minister? This is much clearer to them than if you say that he was the
25 most responsible. Both statements are correct, but it's much more
1 specific if you say that he was the federal police minister.
2 A. Yes, that's right. He was the federal police minister, he was a
3 Slovene, and he held other important functions later on.
4 Q. All right.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: I was going to say that the witness should have the
6 opportunity, if he wishes, to complete his answer to my question. I
7 resent being interrupted by the accused and a witness who is answering a
8 question of mine being interrupted in the course of it.
9 Now, is there anything else you wish to say in answer to my
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the 1981 demonstrations,
12 firearms were used by the demonstrators and police as well, but in
13 response. Nine demonstrators were killed, and two policemen. In the
14 village of Prekaze, weapons were used by an Albanian who barricaded
15 himself inside the house and then opened fire from the house. The police
16 surrounded the house and made a shelter for police members. They did not
17 want to engage in combat inside the house. And then Special Police Unit
18 was called in under the command of the Slovene police officer who
19 liquidated this house from which resistance was put up and from which the
20 fire was opened on police.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you have led evidence about the
23 demonstrations in 1968, demonstrations in 1981, and I think you're now
24 going to deal with 1998, but we're going to take the break now for 20
1 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Mr. Milosevic.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Milosevic. Thank you.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, these events of 1981, and I'm thinking of the
7 demonstrations which you've already talked about a lot, how did they
8 reflect upon the lives of Serbs and Montenegrins and other non-Albanians
9 in the province?
10 A. Very negatively, because inter-ethnic relations were disrupted
11 even further. Insecurity was created, lack of hope, and this reflected
12 very negatively upon the overall situation in Kosovo, because Serbs, even
13 after that, were exposed to various forms of pressure exerted against
14 themselves, their property. Their fields were destroyed. Graveyards were
15 destroyed. The Pec monastery was set on fire. And there were also
16 provocations, insults, attacks.
17 There was an attack at the -- the Orthodox bishop at the time, and
18 there was also an attack on a priest in Prizren.
19 Q. And do you remember any incidents involving killings? Was any of
20 that happening?
21 A. Yes, there were some killings. I remember certain cases which
22 were particularly unusual. There was a killing in the village of Mec
23 near Djakovica. There was the only Serbian house in that village. And
24 upon instructions of the presidents of the -- of the president of the
25 Presidency of Kosovo at the time went to visit that family because that
1 person had written letters to the highest organs of the federation, the
2 Republic of Serbia and Kosovo, that he's afraid that he would be killed
4 And with another Albanian who happened to be the president of the
5 Commission for Complaints, went to visit that person and then went to the
6 municipality of Djakovica and asked the municipal Secretariat for Internal
7 Affairs to extend protection for this person. Unfortunately, very soon
8 after that, Miodrag Saric was killed in his yard right next to his house,
9 because he had already prepared material in order to rebuild and renovate
10 his old house. I had visited his old house.
11 There was another case of Danilo Milancic in Samodreza near
12 Vucitrn. A young man was killed. Before that, his father was killed
14 These are cases which were covered a lot in the press. There was
15 also the case of Martinovic in Gnjilane.
16 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic. When did you hear the term
17 "ethnically pure Kosovo" for the first time?
18 A. I heard that term in official documents of the provincial
19 political bodies, in official documents of the political organs of
20 Yugoslavia. This term was used following 1981, stating that the objective
21 of the separatists and Albanian nationalists was to create an ethnically
22 pure Kosovo.
23 Q. And could you please tell us how the organs of the province, the
24 republic, and the SFRY placed themselves in relation to these problems of
25 harassment, moving out, and so on.
1 A. Up until 1981, this was a taboo topic. Nobody discussed it, and
2 it was a problem that everybody ignored.
3 From 1981, this problem was something that the provincial organs,
4 the republican organs, and the federal organs all had to deal with, and
5 they assessed this problem and decided upon specific measures, and they
6 adopted conclusions in order to prevent the moving out of the population.
7 Q. Who made these measures?
8 A. The Assembly of Kosovo adopted these measures. The Federal
9 Assembly adopted the measures also, as well as the Executive Council or
10 the Assembly of Serbia. Measures were adopted by other political organs
11 in the League of Communists and the Socialist Alliance. So this question
12 became topical and it was mentioned in numerous documents.
13 Q. Very well, Mr. Jokanovic. Did all these measures stop the wave of
14 emigration from Kosovo?
15 A. Unfortunately, they did not. These measures did not yield the
16 expected results. When the implementation of the measures was assessed
17 the term that was used was "insufficient activity," "inefficacy," and also
18 "opportunism" in the implementation of these measures. So that this
19 emigration from Kosovo continued even after the adoption of these
20 measures, and it affected all the administrative organs.
21 Q. And did the Serbs and Montenegrins feel protected after these
22 measures were adopted?
23 A. No, they did not feel protected. After 1981, the unrest was even
24 greater. And then in subsequent years, starting from 1982, the so-called
25 rallies of Serbs and Montenegrins began who began to rally together in the
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 places where they lived in order to point out the problems that they were
3 Q. When you say for different reasons, which reasons are you thinking
4 of? What is the nature of the -- why did they rally together?
5 A. When a fight broke out, there was a rape, someone was arrested, or
6 even if there was a visit by any member of the Commission for Complaints.
7 There was such a commission comprising all the federal organs which toured
8 all the different municipalities and reviewed all the complaints made by
9 the citizens. So when this commission would, for example, come to visit
10 my municipality of Vitina, we would have a large number of people who
11 would come together in order to state what their problems were, in order
12 to acquaint the people who had come to visit them with the problems that
13 they were facing.
14 So these rallies took place in several locations around Kosovo.
15 And when this, as well, did not yield the expected results, Serbs decided
16 to go and take their complaints to Belgrade, to go to Belgrade to ask for
17 help and justice. They went to visit all the republican bodies because
18 they were disappointed with the conduct of the republican organs, because
19 they felt that it was up to the republic to protect them. Then they would
20 instead go to the Federal Assembly and to see officials who were members
21 of the federal bodies. There were several such visits to Belgrade.
22 Q. And what was the situation at the University of Pristina at the
23 time? Very briefly, please.
24 A. The university in Pristina was actually an outpost of the Belgrade
25 University, and then first faculties were formed and then a university was
1 formed later. But this university was gradually turning into primarily an
2 Albanian university, while classes in Serbian were being suppressed. And
3 professors were complaining. I would see them, and I would hear the
4 series of problems that they were facing in their work. This was the
5 problem of majorisation and the problem of keys. And this keys policy was
6 referring to quotas during -- when people were enrolling, quotas taking
7 into account the national structure, and it brought the Serbs into an
8 unequal position. It was positive discrimination.
9 So then these classes were just classes that had to be there and
10 were meant to be gradually phased out. There were fewer and fewer people
11 from Kosovo who spoke Albanian who were moving out, so that classes in
12 Serbian were becoming more and more threatened.
13 Up until 1980-something, over 60 per cent of teachers from Kosovo
14 had left and had moved to other places in the former Yugoslavia.
15 Q. What was the situation with the economic development of Kosovo at
16 the time?
17 A. From the late 1960s, and that's the period of my direct
18 participation in such work, particularly from 1970, when I became the
19 president of the municipality, the economy of Kosovo grew very quickly and
20 dynamically, and this area used to be the least developed area in the
21 former Yugoslavia. So there was practically a rebirth of Kosovo that took
22 place over a period of two decades, and the progress they made in such a
23 short time would be something that other nations would perhaps need much
24 more time to achieve. It was a place where there were a lot of illiterate
25 people, there was practically no industry, there were no schools. So in
1 this period, thanks to the fund for the development of undeveloped
2 regions, a large number of facilities were built, economic facilities,
3 also the infrastructure was built, and there were a lot of social services
4 that were developed.
5 In my municipality during my mandate, more factories were built --
6 several factories were built, and the number of employees in those
7 factories doubled. I remember out of 3.800 workers who were there when I
8 took on office, when I left my office, there were 9.000 workers.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear Mr. Milosevic's
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first problem that I directly
12 faced were after the demonstrations in 1981, because amongst, other things
13 which I mentioned, you could hear more and more criticism about the
14 constitution, and there were more and more suggestions to change or amend
15 the constitution. And also saying that the constitution itself, perhaps,
16 was among the causes of problems in Kosovo.
17 In 1980, already they talked about the essential changes that had
18 to be made to the amendments in 1981. This was something that was dealt
19 with by the federal, republican, and provincial organs. In 1982 and 1983,
20 the conclusions of the Central Committee of LCY of Yugoslavia were
21 presented in an analysis in order to achieve unity in the Republic of
22 Serbia where all the different aspects were pointed out how to achieve
23 unity and what the problems were in that and what had to be changed in
24 certain regulations and what had to be stated more specifically.
25 Q. Very well. Could you please tell us when the work on the draft
1 amendments to the constitution of Serbia began, and how long did this work
3 A. I would like to talk about the things that I participated in
4 directly. For the first time, I took part in a meeting of the Presidency
5 work group, the Presidency of Serbia, together with my colleagues,
7 Q. Just one moment. What was your function? On what basis did you
8 participate in this working group of the Presidency of Serbia; as a
9 representative of Kosovo or were you invited by the Presidency of Serbia?
10 A. Of course I was a representative of Kosovo because I was a member
11 of the Kosovo Presidency, in charge of constitutional questions and the
12 political systems.
13 Q. How many of you from Kosovo took part in this work?
14 A. Two of us. The vice-president of the Executive Council, who was
15 also in charge with constitutional questions and legal matters, and then
16 later we had a professor from the Pristina University. Both of these
17 people were Albanians.
18 Q. This was in 1986 in Boticeva Street at the government of the
19 Republic of Serbia. This first meeting --
20 Q. Could you please tell me who presided over this meeting.
21 A. The meeting was scheduled and presided over by the president of
22 the Presidency of Serbia at the time, Ivan Stambolic. And from Vojvodina
23 there was a member of the Presidency. It was my colleague, his name was
25 Q. Was the composition from Vojvodina also ethnically mixed?
1 A. From Vojvodina the composition was the same. This Vujadinovic
2 person was probably a Serb or a Montenegrin, I don't know. There was also
3 a secretary for legal matters. I don't know what his ethnicity was.
4 Q. So work on this draft amendment began in 1986. Is that true?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And this is what you participated in?
7 A. Yes. In 1986 I participated as a member of the Presidency.
8 Q. Could you please tell me now whether this working group which was
9 formed and this constitutional commission which was formed had to consult
10 with their grassroots, with their electorate.
11 A. This was essential. We were not there as free shooters
12 representing our own opinion. Before the meetings and after the meetings
13 which we had as a group, we were obliged to inform the Presidency of
14 Kosovo, the constitutional commission of Kosovo, the Presidency of the
15 Kosovo provincial council. They would form their views based on our
16 positions, and then we would convey these positions back again. We would
17 try to coordinate and harmonise this position.
18 There was a large number of meetings on each particular matter
19 discussed at the level of the province and also in order to reach a
20 consensus with our constituency. There were also meetings with
21 representatives of Serbia and Vojvodina.
22 Q. So work on the draft that you had and work at the commission which
23 was presided over by Ivan Stambolic began in 1986.
24 A. Yes. The drafting of proposals began in 1986, and that was the
25 direction and the scale of changes. So this proposition or proposal
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 discussed about the things that needed to be changed. And then when this
2 proposal was adopted, then this work was transferred to the constitutional
3 commission of the Republic of Serbia and such commissions of Kosovo and
5 Q. When was this transferred to the constitutional commission?
6 A. In 1987.
7 Q. Very well. That was in 1987. Here in paragraph 79 of this paper
8 that I'm quoting to you from, which was prepared by the other side, it
9 states: "In early 1989" -- so this is what it states here: "In early
10 1989, the Serbian Assembly proposed amendments to the constitution of
11 Serbia which would strip Kosovo of most of its autonomous powers,
12 including control of the police, educational and economic policy, and
13 choice -- as well as its veto powers over further changes to the
14 constitution of Serbia."
15 Please, could you comment on that.
16 A. I would like to be as brief as possible. The constitutional
17 amendments were worked on for a long time. It took three years to
18 harmonise positions. In 1989, a draft was adopted by the Assembly, and
19 this was then put out for public debate. So after a long time of hard
20 work, which included all of the organs of the Vojvodina and Kosovo
21 provinces as well as the republican organs. So by that draft, the
22 province of Kosovo was not stripped of its autonomous powers. All of its
23 jurisdiction or powers remained. The amendments just restored several
24 functions to Serbia in the sphere of national defence, internal affairs,
25 but not the entirety of internal affairs, only those pertaining to the
1 security of the Republic of Serbia as a whole.
2 And there was also a procedure established of joint activities
3 with the provincial organs, but the other questions remained in the
4 jurisdiction of the province. This draft in no way changed the position
5 of the province within the federation. The --
6 Q. Very well. Very well, Mr. Jokanovic. So this passage that I
7 quoted to you stripped the majority of its autonomous powers, including
8 control of the police, educational and economic policy. From what you
9 say, then, it seems that this is not true.
10 A. Yes. That is not true, especially the part pertaining to veto
11 powers. I didn't respond to that.
12 The draft amendment, or when the amendments were adopted, there
13 was no right of veto. The veto power was substituted with a complex
14 procedure to change the constitution of Serbia. Instead of veto powers,
15 which deprived Serbia of its basic constitutional function which every
16 republic had, the amendments provided for a complex procedure, meaning
17 that if consensus is not achieved, the Assembly cannot effect a change.
18 This is postponed for six months, and then within that period if consensus
19 is not achieved, then -- or if one of the provinces is opposed to that,
20 then the Assembly of Serbia cannot adopt these changes again, and then
21 these changes can be effected only through a referendum.
22 But there was a solution found. A way out was found from a veto
23 through this complex procedure.
24 Q. And all these things that were done, were they done in such a way
25 as to include actively the political leadership at the level of
2 A. That work could not have been done and changes would not have been
3 possible without the direct and active involvement of federal bodies,
4 especially the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, which had the most
5 authority and was the integrating -- the greatest integrating factor in
6 the country.
7 The positions expressed by the Central Committee of the League of
8 Communists of Yugoslavia expressed at various sessions were very
9 important, such as the 9th, the 16th, and especially the 17th session,
10 especially point 5, where it said that Serbia should be able to exercise
11 its powers throughout its territory without changing the status of the
12 province as an integral part of the federation.
13 Q. All right, Mr. Jokanovic. You provided, among other documents,
14 and that is an exhibit, 964, that has been provided to you timely, in
15 English. We have a memo here saying Exhibits for Vukasin Jokanovic, item
16 6, document titled The Policy of the LCY in Kosovo, Pristina. It contains
17 all these positions expressed by various republican authorities, as well
18 as federal bodies, the bodies of Serbia, of Yugoslavia, pertaining --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the document that you have just
20 submitted, what is it?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a document of the League of
22 Communists of Kosovo encompassing the policy of the League of Communists
23 of Yugoslavia in Kosovo, including original records of various political
24 meetings dealing with the issue of constitutional amendments and the
25 situation in Kosovo in general.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you going to refer to specific parts of it?
2 It's not translated.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was disclosed much in advance,
4 sufficiently in advance, and I will quote, because there is no time to
5 dwell on it a lot, but for instance, I will quote from the record of a
6 meeting --
7 MR. NICE: There seems to be some confusion as to whether there's
8 translation. We have never received an English translation of this
9 document. We have received English translations of a number of other
10 documents, but not of this one.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you say it was submitted in
12 advance for translation? How much in advance?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really don't know, I must say.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you must know. That attitude is just not
15 acceptable. If you intend to rely on the document, you know what the
16 general rule is: The document must be translated in one of the working
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. So as not to waste more
19 time, may I quote from this document or not? If you say I'm not allowed
20 to, I'll move on, ask other questions. I'm sorry this hasn't been
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, in light of the fact that you did
24 submit it for translation some time ago, although we were made to
25 understand that you were asked to identify particular passages for
1 translation and you're not in a position to do so, but in light of that,
2 we will allow you to refer to it if the passage is short, because it will
3 have to be translated by the interpreters.
4 What is the passage to which you wish to refer?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here, Mr. Robinson. I will skip all
6 the passages where I spoke, and I will quote only from page 42, the words
7 of the then president of the Presidency of the League of Communists of
8 Yugoslavia, a Croat by ethnicity, who also participated in that meeting,
9 and he spoke about constitutional amendments. I have only a couple of
11 This particular Croat was not looking very kindly upon the Serbian
12 leadership at the time. He you could say that he was even opposed. His
13 name is Stipe Suvar, he says -- and I will try to think of the
14 interpreters. He says: "Our main problem is that throughout these years,
15 from the explosion of Albanian nationalism, accompanied by all those
16 counterrevolutionary demands from 1981 onwards, we still have not made or
17 achieved this in-depth transformation. We did not improve the situation
18 or achieve stabilisation."
19 And he goes on to say: "Together with Albanians, who are an
20 overwhelming majority in the province, there live there also Serbs and
21 Montenegrins who feel the most threatened and are indeed the most
22 threatened, followed by Muslims, who live there in considerable numbers,
23 as well as Romas, Croats, and all the others."
24 Further down below, he says: "It is ludicrous to hear discussions
25 about which nationalism is more dangerous. In Kosovo, the Albanian
1 nationalism is 100 times more dangerous."
2 MR. NICE: Sorry to be technically difficult, but I think if we're
3 going to be quoting or taking extracts from documents in Serbian, what
4 we've done in the past and what probably ought to be done now is the
5 document ought be on the overhead projector --
6 JUDGE KWON: It is.
7 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. I'm not following and I'll sit down. But I
8 think it ought to be read probably by the accused -- very well.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would also appreciate it if
10 they could hear the page number for each separate quotation.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, would you identify the page
12 numbers for each quotation so that the interpreters can follow it.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did give a page number. I started
14 with page 42. Then there is a small quotation from page 44. And I read
15 very slowly.
16 And this is not a meeting that took place in Serbia. It is a
17 summit meeting of the Yugoslav leadership that was held in Pristina, and I
18 was quoting the words of the leader of that Yugoslav summit, at that time
19 president of the Yugoslav Presidency, Croat by ethnicity, Stipe Suvar.
20 Now, page 46, he says that: "It is a good thing --"
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, could you bear in mind so that the
22 interpreters can follow the text through ELMO, so could you check whether
23 the ELMO shows the relevant part of the text or not.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. On the ELMO -- Mr. Jokanovic, will you please turn to page 46.
1 That's where I am now. And this is the paragraph.
2 The end of the first column, page 46, the then president says:
3 "In conclusion, I think what happened in the Assembly of Serbia concerning
4 constitutional amendments is good, as well as the way it happened. First
5 of all, I can't understand why the Albanian masses in Kosovo seem to think
6 that something radically changed here, because the amendments relate to
7 five or six issues, and it is quite normal that Serbia receives competence
8 over them as a state, even if we are not reconciling ourselves with the
9 fact that Serbia is not composed of three states; that is, unless we are
10 willing to reconcile ourselves with Serbia being composed of three states,
11 that is, unless we allow two provinces to grow into states and become
13 What was going on at that time at the summit level in Yugoslavia
14 completely coincides with the description just given by Witness Jokanovic,
15 because I asked him to what extent the political leadership of Yugoslavia
16 was involved --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've stopped you. Ask a question of the witness.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you do that, could I possibly have
19 clarification. What is the document?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is the record of a summit meeting
21 of the Yugoslav leadership held in Pristina, and the president of the
22 Presidency of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, Dr. Stipe Suvar,
23 from Croatia - it was Croatia's turn at the time to provide the president
24 - spoke on this issue, and he expressed the position of the Yugoslav
25 leadership, not the Serbian leadership.
1 And then on page 47 -- in order to save time, I skipped my own
2 words at that meeting, but you have it in its entirety, and you can read
4 The document is titled conclusions of the Presidency of the
5 Provincial Committee of The League of Communists of Kosovo.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, it was mostly Albanians in this Presidency; right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. So these are conclusions of the Presidency of the provincial
10 committee of the League of Communists of Kosovo the 28th of February 1989.
11 Page 47, paragraph 2: "They invoke the stances taken by the
12 Presidency of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."
13 Paragraph 5: "The Presidency of the provincial committee of the
14 League of Communists of Kosovo --" page 48, for the benefit of the
15 interpreters, the end of column 1. "The Presidency of the provincial
16 committee of the League of Communists of Kosovo reiterates once again that
17 it supports constitutional changes to the constitution of Serbia and
18 demands that they be passed as soon as possible in order for the Republic
19 of Serbia to be able to exercise its powers and functions on its whole
20 territory, because these amendments do not jeopardise the autonomy of
21 provinces or the equality among peoples and minorities."
22 I will just want to ask you, what is the -- what was the position
23 of the top Yugoslav authorities at that time? I quoted to you the
24 position of the Provincial Committee from Kosovo, which was composed
25 mostly of Albanians and presided over by an Albanian.
1 Mr. Jokanovic, for the Assembly of Serbia to be able to pass these
2 amendments, it was necessary to receive the approval of both provinces; is
3 that so?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was it necessary to have the approval of the Republic of Serbia
6 for provincial assemblies to pass amendments?
7 A. No. Serbia's approval was not necessary. Provinces could change
8 their constitutions independently.
9 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, we will now move on to very specific issues,
10 questions, because as you just confirmed, you were at the time president
11 of the Assembly of Kosovo.
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. When did the Assembly of Kosovo and, if you know, the Assembly of
14 Vojvodina meet to give this approval?
15 A. For Vojvodina it was the 10th of March, and for Kosovo it was the
16 23rd of March.
17 Q. I thought Vojvodina's Assembly met on the 21st of March, but what
18 you say is true. The session of the Assembly of Kosovo over which you
19 presided took place on the 23rd of March.
20 Tell me, was it a public session?
21 A. The session of the Kosovo parliament was a public one. It was
22 attended by a great number of journalists. Never in my life, although I
23 occupied various posts, had I spoken before a greater number of the
24 press. There were 180 journalists accredited from all over Yugoslavia and
25 even from abroad. The interest was huge in the course and the work of
1 that particular session of the Assembly of Kosovo.
2 Q. Tell me, Mr. Jokanovic, was this parliament session held in a
3 regular way?
4 A. This parliament session was held quite regularly, in keeping with
5 the constitution of Kosovo and in keeping with the Rules of Procedure of
6 that parliament.
7 Q. You were the speaker of that parliament. What was the ethnicity
8 of other high officials in the parliament?
9 A. I was president, the vice-president was Albanian, general
10 secretary was also Albanian. Since the parliament had three Chambers, in
11 two Chambers there were Albanians, and in the third one there was a
12 Montenegrin at the top. And my in my previous posts I also had a lot of
13 Albanian colleagues. I think I explained that already.
14 Q. Please tell us, was any pressure exerted on the delegates?
15 A. To vote or not to vote?
16 Q. Were they pressured into accepting the proposal to consent to
17 these constitutional amendments?
18 A. We functioned in the system of delegates. Delegates voted in
19 accordance with their constituency. Their constituency were the municipal
20 assemblies, and the delegates of social political Chambers and various
21 political organisations. Pressures in the sense of threats or any other
22 kinds of pressure did not exist. It was the duty of the delegates to vote
23 in accordance with the position of those organs who sent them to the
24 Assembly of Kosovo.
25 Q. Actually to vote in accordance with the position of their
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. Please tell me, on the 3rd of May, 2002, Ibrahim Rugova stated
4 here, I'm quoting his words, I took this off the transcript: "The Kosovo
5 Assembly had to decide on the suspension of the status of Kosovo from the
6 federation and the Assembly delegates were pressured into voting on this.
7 The public was against this. They used violence to pressure them. There
8 were tanks in the streets, and there were secret agents inside the
9 Assembly building so that the members voted under pressure. I remember
10 that ten members voted against, and these members were punished,
11 convicted. Some were sent to prison, and some were fired."
12 All right. So you were the president of the Assembly. Let us
13 clear up some things. Were there any tanks around the Assembly building?
14 A. No, there were no tanks around the Assembly building.
15 Q. Did you see any tanks? How did you come to the Assembly building
16 from your house? Did you walk there or did you come with an escort or
17 something like that?
18 A. Well, the distance is relatively short. I lived in what was then
19 called Beogradska Street. I went there on foot. I saw no tanks on the
20 streets, no tanks around the Assembly building.
21 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, please have in mind the warning of the
22 interpreters. As both of us speak Serbian, we have to make a pause in
23 order to allow the interpreters to interpret what both of us say.
24 So there was no pressure, and there were no tanks. But the fact
25 that ten members of the Assembly voted against is an accurate one that can
1 be confirmed by the minutes?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. How many members of the Kosovo Assembly attended that session
4 where amendments were passed?
5 A. Hundred and 87.
6 Q. What was the total number?
7 A. Hundred and ninety.
8 Q. So only three members of the then-Kosovo Assembly did not attend
9 the session?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. And out of those 187, Rugova himself stated that ten voted
12 against, and how many refrained from voting?
13 A. Ten voted against, and two delegates abstained from voting.
14 Q. So everybody else voted for?
15 A. Yes. Everybody else voted for. This was a vast majority, and the
16 decision was followed by an applause. Everybody stood up, because in
17 addition to working nature, this was also a formal, solemn Assembly
19 Q. Please tell me, did anybody from Serbia have an influence over the
20 election of the members of the Kosovo Assembly?
21 A. The Republic of Serbia and its organs had no influence over the
22 personnel policy in Kosovo. The personnel policy in Kosovo was something
23 that was dealt with by Kosovo organs and other institutions in Kosovo.
24 Q. Well, there are documents to confirm all of these facts that you
25 are testifying about. There were 187 delegates attending out of a total
1 number of 190, ten voted against, 2 abstained from voting.
2 How would you characterise the claim contained in paragraph 86 of
3 this so-called indictment which reads as follows, I'm quoting --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm stopping you. The indictment is proper as to
5 form and to substance. Challenges were made at a preliminary stage, and
6 they were dealt with. The indictment is a reality. It is entirely proper
7 and should not be referred to in that way. Continue.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, the indictment is an
9 act of insolence, because everything in it is turned upside down. Not a
10 single count --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have cut you off. If you are going to proceed
12 in that manner concerning issues that have already been dealt with, I will
13 not allow you to do so. I want to hear nothing more about the indictment.
14 That issue has been dealt with, was dealt with from over two years ago.
15 Proceed with your questions.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Well, here is an example
17 of how it has been dealt with, Mr. Robinson. You don't need a greater
18 example from this testimony of this witness. So paragraph 86 reads as
19 follows: "The Kosovo Assembly met in March in Kosovo, and they voted on
20 the proposed amendments," which is correct again. And I will quote on:
21 "And most of the Kosovo Albanian delegates abstained from voting," which
22 is a blatant lie, because only two of them abstained from voting. And
23 then I continue quoting: "Although lacking the required two-thirds
24 majority in the Assembly --" which again is a blatant lie, because only
25 ten delegates voted against --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, there will come a time when you
2 will be allowed to make a speech. That time is not now. The evidence is
3 to be elicited through the witness.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well, Mr. Robinson.
5 JUDGE KWON: Check the paragraph number again. I couldn't follow.
6 You said 86.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I said 86. 86, yes.
8 Then it goes on to say: "Although the majority of Kosovo Albanian
9 delegates abstained from voting. Although lacking the required two-thirds
10 majority in the Assembly, the president of the Assembly nonetheless
11 declared that the amendments --"
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that Mr. Milosevic is reading
13 out of paragraph 81.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Anoya.
15 Perhaps I had an old version, but the text is identical, and the
16 new number is paragraph 81. I have it in English, and what I quoted is
17 accurate, even in this new paragraph number. And it says here: "On 23rd
18 March, [In English] Assembly of Kosovo met in Pristina and with the
19 majority of Kosovo Albanian delegates abstaining, voted to accept the
20 proposed amendments to the constitution. Although lacking the required
21 two-thirds majority in the Assembly, the president of the Assembly
22 nonetheless declared that amendments had passed."
23 [Interpretation] And then in the end there's another sentence. It
24 is not important for this witness: "[In English] Assembly of Serbia voted
25 to approve the constitutional change, effectively revoking the autonomy
1 granted in the 1974 constitution."
2 [Interpretation] This is precisely what I read out verbatim.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Therefore, out of 187 delegates, two voted against -- two
5 abstained, ten voted against, and 174 voted for; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. All of these delegates who had some reservations and who voted
8 against, were they given an opportunity to speak publicly in the Assembly?
9 A. The session was held in a democratic atmosphere. All of those who
10 wanted the floor were granted the right to speak, and you can see that in
11 the tape recording. All of those who wanted were able to discuss
12 publicly. I think that a lot of those who voted for also spoke up
13 publicly. I think that there were a total of 34 people taking the floor.
14 Q. How many?
15 A. I think 34. I have it here in a press excerpt, because the press,
16 on the following day, wrote about all of these facts that I'm describing
17 here. It wrote about the debate, about those who attended, and so on.
18 And there is also a videotape which is not complete because our technical
19 facilities were not very modern at the time.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the ethnic distribution of the
21 membership of the Assembly?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ethnic composition was in
23 accordance with the ethnic composition of the population. Therefore,
24 there were over 70 per cent of Albanian delegates in the Assembly, and at
25 the time there were 77 per cent of Albanians living in Kosovo and
1 Metohija, and in the Assembly over 70 per cent of the delegates were
2 Albanian. If I remember well, there were 140 and something -- 142 or 143
3 Albanian delegates in the Assembly.
4 And then we had Serbs, Montenegrins, Turks, Muslims, and so on,
5 again in numbers corresponding the ethnic composition of the population,
6 because we had to satisfy the requirement for representation both as far
7 as the ethnic composition was concerned and the social composition. That
8 was very important in our then-system.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. All right, Mr. Jokanovic. I have here the English translation and
11 the Serbian text, so there are no problems with translations here. I also
12 have the tape recording from the session of the Assembly held on the 23rd
13 of March, 1989. I marked certain portions. You received this text in
14 English. This is Exhibit 963. And I ask that this be admitted into
16 You will be surprised to hear that even those who voted against
17 did not have very firm views, were not firmly opposed to the
18 constitutional amendments. However, it is their democratic right to vote,
19 so there is no problem there.
20 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow the number you said 963 is coming
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the number indicated on the
23 list. It says here "DPK 963, tape recording," and so on.
24 JUDGE KWON: 65 ter number, yes.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Therefore, my question was, Mr. Jokanovic -- in view of the
3 significance, I have to repeat this question. In view of these facts that
4 you are testifying about, and in view of these documents, how can you
5 qualify the claims in paragraph 81 - and I thank Mr. Kwon for helping me
6 with this - this claim that on the 23rd of March, 1989 the Assembly of
7 Kosovo met in Pristina and, with the majority of Kosovo Albanian delegates
8 abstaining, voted to accept the proposed amendments even though the
9 required two-thirds majority was lacking, and the president of the
10 Assembly - meaning you - declared that the amendments had passed, full
12 On the 28th of March, 1989 the Assembly of Serbia voted to approve
13 the constitutional changes effectively revoking the autonomy granted in
14 the 1974 constitution. So this is paragraph 81 of the English version.
15 So please tell me, in view of these facts that you told us here, how do
16 you assess this paragraph?
17 A. This is not correct. This is fabricated. This fabrication is an
18 attempt to justify what was going on in Kosovo.
19 I think that the Office of the Prosecution received this
20 information which they deemed to be reliable. They received this -- these
21 facts from those who use such fabrications to strengthen their separatist
22 objectives of breaking Kosovo away from Serbia and transforming it into an
23 independent state.
24 I don't think that something like this, a claim like this, is even
25 logical. I don't think that it would even be possible, realistic, because
1 as a speaker of the parliament, I'm not a magician, so I could not, in the
2 presence of 187 delegates, and in the presence of 180 journalists, in a
3 situation where all leaders, the most prominent leaders from Kosovo and
4 from the federation were present, how could I, under those circumstances,
5 say the amendments have been passed when, in fact, they have not? The
6 press reporting both in Serbian and Albanian will clearly show that the
7 situation was, as will the tape.
8 Q. Mr. Jokanovic --
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we play the tape,
10 Mr. Robinson? And this will allow you to gain an impression. We have a
11 videotape, a very brief one.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please play the tape.
14 [Videotape played]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Stop the tape. Mr. Milosevic, was it your
16 intention to have the tape played without there being any translation?
17 Because we're not getting any translation, so it's -- it's of no use to
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was not my intention to play it
20 without interpretation, because I assumed that it could be translated
21 because it's very brief when you play the tape. So I thought that what is
22 being spoken and what is being seen about all the organs supporting the
23 Assembly session, that there was major interest in that, I thought that
24 several of these key things could be interpreted. But we can continue.
25 You can see what the atmosphere at the Assembly session itself was like.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, before we continue, let me find out whether
2 the interpreters are in a position to translate, to interpret.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, it's very fast.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I just heard that. The
5 interpreters say the speech is very, very fast. It's very difficult for
7 THE INTERPRETER: Without a transcript, Your Honour.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The following clip is not very fast,
9 and it's pretty indicative, and I think it will show the actual place
10 where the Assembly was held and the declaration of the adoption of the
11 amendments. We do not have to interpret this very fast clip, but let's
12 look at the next one.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.
14 JUDGE KWON: And if you could also indicate the relevant page
15 number of this transcript. It's not interpreted?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This next clip, you will see now and
17 then I will try with the help of the witness to identify when it was taken
18 and so on.
19 [Videotape played]
20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There is the Socialist Republic of
21 Serbia became a state throughout its territory after the decision of the
22 republican -- after the parliament on Kosovo the constitution of the
23 Socialist Republic of Serbia will be announced on the 28th of March. It
24 is well known that the provincial parliament of Kosovo gave its approval
25 to the wording of the amendments."
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Very well. Mr. Jokanovic --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you proceed, let me ask the witness, just
4 to clarify this. There's a reference to paragraph 81 of the indictment to
5 which Mr. Milosevic referred. You say it is -- it does not reflect the
6 factual situation because the reference to the required two-thirds
7 majority not being present is wrong because there was a two-thirds
8 majority. Please answer that.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a two-thirds majority and
10 agreement was reached by an overwhelming majority, much greater than a
11 two-thirds majority. A two-thirds majority was required, however, under
12 the constitution.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: So that in declaring the amendments as having
14 passed, you acted entirely properly.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I acted completely properly, in
16 accordance with my agenda and in the way I conducted the meeting, asked
17 who was for, who was against, how many abstained, and I declared that
18 agreement was reached on the amendments to the constitution of Serbia, and
19 this was followed, as you could see, by applause. All the deputies who
20 were present got to their feet.
21 This happened before 180 journalists and TV crews who happened to
22 be accredited for that event that day. I have the original newspapers
23 with me where what I'm saying now was published at the time. These are
24 both newspapers in Serbian. I also have a newspaper in the Albanian
25 language, Jedinstvo Politika in Albanian. It's the newspaper Rilindja
1 Komunist. There are pictures and so on.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You've answered the question.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, at the moment when you declared the amendments
5 adopted and when the Assembly session got to its feet and the applause
6 began, we could see on this brief clip many figures who were sitting
7 there. Can you please remember and tell us who we can see. Who was
8 sitting in the front row? Who were those who were present as special
9 guests and who also applauded and got to their feet and so on?
10 A. The session was attended by leaders and officials from the
11 federation who were representing Kosovo in the federation. The member of
12 the Presidency of Yugoslavia was there. The member of the Presidency of
13 the Central Committee of Yugoslavia.
14 Q. I apologise for interrupting you, Mr. Jokanovic, but it would be
15 useful, if you remember, if you could also tell us their names and not
16 only just their posts.
17 A. Member of the Presidency of Yugoslavia who was before the
18 vice-president and the president of the Presidency, his name is Sinan
20 Q. And what is his ethnicity?
21 A. He's an Albanian from the village of Pozharanje from my own
22 municipality Kosovska Vitina. He's also a writer, an author, who
23 published the first novel in the Albanian language. He's a very
24 prominent, respected figure. He's a novelist called "Rrushi ka filluar me
25 u pjek." That's in Albanian. In Serbian the title is The Grapes are
1 Beginning to Ripen.
2 Next to him was Ali Shukrija, who was a member of the Presidency
3 of the Central Committee of Yugoslavia. Remzi Koleci, the president of
4 the Presidency of Kosovo.
5 Q. Remzi Shukrija [sic] Was also an Albanian?
6 A. Yes, an Albanian from Kosovska Mitrovica. He participated in
7 World War II and was decorated for that, and he was in the political life
8 of Kosovo and the federation for many years.
9 Q. Continue. Remzi Koleci, what about him?
10 A. Remzi Koleci was the president of the Presidency of the Autonomous
11 Province of Kosovo. This is the top function in Kosovo.
12 Rrahman Morina, the president of the Presidency of the Provincial
13 Committee of Kosovo.
14 Q. All Albanians?
15 A. Albanian. Daut Jasanica, the president of the Presidency of the
16 Socialist Alliance of the Albanians. The president of the Executive
17 Council, also an Albanian, Nazmi.
18 Q. Was that Jusuf Zejnullahu who was the person at the time?
19 A. Jusuf Zejnullahu at the time actually -- actually, at the time it
20 was either Nazmi Mustafa or Jusuf Zejnullahu. There are many years that
21 have gone by since then and there were people always changing in those
22 functions. I think it was Jusuf Zejnullahu.
23 Q. Well, I'm not sure either. I'm trying to remember.
24 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Milosevic.
25 Mr. Jokanovic, at the last page of this transcript I notice you
1 were saying at the time, "Those in favour, please raise your hands. And
2 who is against?" My question is whether this method of voting, which is
3 raising their hands, is a usual method of voting at the Assembly, instead
4 of using some ballot paper?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the usual method of voting,
6 not only in Kosovo but also in the republic and in the other republics.
7 Voting was public, by acclamation, by the raising of one's hand. It was
8 also possible to have a secret ballot if a delegate proposed such a
9 measure and the Assembly agreed to have a secret vote.
10 In this case, there were no such proposals. It's possible that
11 nobody proposed such a measure because all the organs in the province and
12 all the municipal assemblies in the province had already made their
13 decisions and obliged their delegates to vote in accordance with their
14 constituency, which delegated them to come and vote.
15 The reporter - and this was the clip that was not interpreted -
16 says that the decision is based on the decision of all the forms of organs
17 who coordinated and made the decision to vote in favour of the amendments.
18 So the voting was public, and that was the practice. There was no
19 electronic voting at the time. We did not have such a possibility then.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jokanovic, I have a very short question for
21 you. It was you we saw on the video clip, was it, making the
22 announcement? Who was the person who made the announcement immediately
23 before we saw the applause?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was me. I was the president of
25 the Kosovo Assembly, and that is my voice.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm much younger, but that was me.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that. Now, the transcript we have
4 ends with a reference to, "The Chambers of the Kosovo Assembly have agreed
5 to hold a joint session of all three Chambers. We should now decide when
6 shall we take a 20-minute break."
7 Is the part that's on the video after the 20-minute break?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, I would just like to
9 explain something. This is the part that pertains to the constitution.
10 Then the rest of the meeting deals with current issues and has nothing to
11 do with this. What you have here only deals with the constitution. The
12 session then proceeded to deal with regular matters.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer, since the question was
14 addressed to me?
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Assembly began its work by
17 sitting in the different -- in its separate Chambers. It set the agenda.
18 The amendments were just the first item on the agenda. Then the other
19 items were also adopted.
20 When the session pertaining to the amendments was finished, the
21 session went on to deal with the rest of the items on the agenda. But I
22 was not presiding over that whole session. It was presided over by the
23 presidents of the Chambers.
24 The constitution continued its session. The opening speech was
25 heard, which was submitted by the vice-president of the Executive Council,
1 Kazeb Susuri [phoen], dealing with other matters, economic issues and
2 other topics that were on the agenda. So the Assembly session continued
3 with its regular work.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps it's Mr. Milosevic who can answer the
5 question, then. Where in the transcript do we find the part which we saw
6 in the video?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's on the last page in the Serbian
8 version. It says when it was noted that there were ten against, that
9 there were two abstentions, then it states: "I hereby declare that the
10 Assembly of the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo has approved the
11 text of the amendments after democratic discussion, and this outcome of
12 our Assembly session, allow me to say a few things."
13 Then Mr. Jokanovic gives a brief speech, but then what you saw on
14 the video was him declaring the Assembly approving the text of the
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it may be my mistake, but it's not how I saw
17 it on the transcript but I'll review it later and clarify the position for
19 MR. NICE: Before we move on and while we're considering to the
20 degree we are the transcript, and just in case the Chamber takes it with
21 it when it adjourns very soon, there's a bit of a problem in handling this
22 exhibit. It's most easily seen from the Serbian original but you can
23 actually pick up the problem in the English transcript. As I hold up the
24 Serbian original, which has page numbers in the top right-hand corner, you
25 will see that pages are sequential to a degree until page 87, although
1 there are missing pages. There's then a series of pages starting again at
2 24 and running through, in the original Serbian, to 88 by simply being a
3 collection of pages which should probably be inserted into the earlier
4 series of pages. But even, I think, by inserting them we don't have a
5 complete record.
6 If you look at the English version, you can see the problem at
7 various places. For example, if you take the English version and look at
8 page, bottom right-hand corner, 36, and then look to the top of that,
9 you'll see that there is a reference there to the first three lines ending
10 page 71 and the record picking up at page 74, indicating that pages 72 and
11 73 are missing. Now, I think you'll then find, if you go back to the
12 collection of pages at the end, that 72 and 73 aren't here at all.
13 So that we've got a slightly muddled record and, I think, an
14 incomplete one. The accused may not have focused his attention on this.
15 It may be something he will want to do during the forthcoming break in the
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you heard that. Some pages seem
18 to be missing.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I did hear what is being
20 discussed. Sometimes it happens that the stenograms repeat several times,
21 that they start from 1 and then some parts begin again, depending on the
22 person who is actually transcribing the stenogram. You have page 7, then
23 you have 10, then 35, then 37, and so on in the stenogram.
24 As Mr. Nice rightly said, you have page 80, then 87 on the last
25 pages in Serbian, but before that, for example, you have many pages.
1 Before that you have 84, 85, 83, again 84, 82, 81, because this last page,
2 80, has the words Kurtesh Salihu, then Kurtesh Salihu, then a blank space.
3 Many pages before that you have Kurtesh Salihu on page 81, then he says,
4 "Comrades, delegates ..." and then you have his speech. So that means
5 his speech was not dropped, it's just a question of how it was arranged.
6 Mr. Jokanovic has already pointed out that the technical facilities were
7 not the best for transcription. This is what we have. This is the actual
8 stenogram that exists. There's also the video recording, which is also
9 quite clear. There are the facts.
10 I would just like to ask you, after the break, of course, because
11 I know it's time for the break, that regardless of the fact that we did
12 not translate this, because it's very difficult to translate the
13 newspapers, you can admit not my photocopies, but you can admit the
14 originals which Mr. Jokanovic has, where you can see in the newspapers
15 from that time - for example, we will put that on the ELMO - we have a
16 clip from Rilindja, which is the Albania newspaper, and you can see the
17 entire Assembly session delegates on its feet. There is also the part by
18 Sinan Hasani, the president of Yugoslavia. I can recognise him in the
19 photo. I can recognise Ali Shukrija, I can recognise Rrahman Morina; all
20 of these people that Mr. Jokanovic mentioned. So both in the transcripts
21 and in the newspapers -- in the video clip and in the newspaper you can
22 see all of these officials very well. So it -- there can be no doubt
23 about the public nature of the meeting, the people who were present, the
24 reporting from it. And you will not find anywhere in Albanian newspapers
25 either any mention of any presence of police forces or any other nonsense
1 that we heard in relation to this.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Milosevic.
3 Mr. Jokanovic, you will be pleased to know we're going to follow
4 your practice by taking a 20-minute break.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we considered in the break how to
8 deal with these newspaper clips which you would like the witness to refer
9 to and which are in his possession, not in yours. We have the same
10 problem of translation, but if the passages are short, then they can be
11 put on the ELMO and the interpreters can translate them.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, there is no particular
13 need to quote from the newspaper. I just wanted you to see them on the
14 ELMO for you to see newspapers in Serbian, newspapers in Albanian, all the
15 media coverage that accompanied this event which reflects the atmosphere
16 of complete consensus that was typical, that characterised the enactment
17 of the amendments.
18 I have copies of the newspaper that Mr. Jokanovic has before him,
19 and of course we have a full set of these newspapers, but they have not
20 been translated. We thought it would be a waste of resources to make
21 these translations. Everything is explained in both Albanian and in
22 Serbian newspapers.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but if -- if they're put on the ELMO,
24 they'll have to be translated, and for that purpose we just want to have a
25 specific portion or whatever it is identified so that it can be
1 translated. Otherwise, it's not of any benefit to us.
2 Alternatively, you could leave them, identify what you want to
3 have translated, and we would have them submitted for translation, and we
4 would mark them for identification.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. That can be done on a
6 general basis. I would just like to put a few things on the overhead
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. For instance, Mr. Jokanovic, would you please put on the ELMO the
10 first -- the cover page of the Politika of the day following the passage
11 of the amendments, 28th -- sorry, 24th of March, showing your picture.
12 Show, please, this part where the text begins and where it says:
13 "Twenty-four delegates took part in the discussion, in the debate. The
14 amendments were passed by an overwhelming majority of votes (out of 187
15 delegates, ten were against, and two abstained.)"
16 Then you see the highlighted part, and as Mr. Jokanovic explained,
17 it also states the number of press representatives present, the number of
18 deputies who took part in the debate, and the number of those who voted
19 and how they voted.
20 That's the front page of Politika.
21 And now for the sake of balance, let us see the Rilindja
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness confirm, Mr. Milosevic.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I kept this copy of the newspaper in
25 my own documentation.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness. Witness. I just wanted to confirm
2 whether what Mr. Milosevic read is in the paper.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... the
5 interpreters who should have translated it.
6 What's the next newspaper, Mr. Milosevic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will skip many newspapers in
8 Serbian. Let us have the Albanian newspaper Rilindja. It is in this set.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. And since you, Mr. Jokanovic, are fluent in Albanian, can you
11 please interpret the headlines or, rather, the captions below the
12 pictures. Do you see this on the ELMO? Because I don't have this copy
13 before me.
14 Let me just see if what you put on the ELMO is exactly what I
15 meant. Yes.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why don't you -- is it the highlighted portions
17 that he is to read?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He can read whatever he wants out of
19 the highlights, but I would like him to read -- or, rather, to identify
20 the people in the first row. This is an Albanian newspaper.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You can see everybody standing and clapping. What is written
23 below this photo, and who are people in the first row?
24 A. It says in Albanian, because I know the Albanian language:
25 "Deputies to the Kosovo parliament applauding the passage of amendments to
1 the constitution of the Republic of Serbia."
2 In the first row I'm showing Ali Shukrija, Rrahman Morina, both
3 Albanians; Sinan Hasani, member of the Presidency of the SFRY, also
4 Albanian; and Mr. Koleci, president of the Presidency of Kosovo, also
6 The headline is: "Approval given to amend the constitution of
7 Serbia." Here, where I'm pointing, it says: "180 journalists and photo
9 In another photograph you see the moment of voting.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic. I will not go through any more of these
11 newspapers, although there are many of them, including interviews with
12 Albanian officials, their photographs.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please play the third clip
14 we have on the video recording showing the session of the Republic of
15 Serbia parliament. I have been told that this is --
16 [Videotape played]
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have seen this. Next excerpt,
18 please. This clip we have already seen. I was expecting the following
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: When the clip is played, the interpreters should
21 interpret if that is possible.
22 THE INTERPRETER: This is fast, and the interpreters do not have
23 the transcripts.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I appreciate that, yes.
25 [Videotape played]
1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Pursuant to Article 431 of the
2 constitution of the Socialist Republic of Serbia and the Assembly of the
3 Socialist Republic of Serbia at the session of Chambers of associated
4 labour, Chamber of municipalities, and the socio-political Chamber of the
5 28th of March, 1989, adopts the decision to proclaim amendments 9 to 49 to
6 the constitution of the Socialist Republic of Serbia. Hereby proclaimed
7 are amendments 9 to 49 to the constitution of the Republic of Serbia, as
8 adopted by the Assembly of the Republic of Serbia at the sessions of the
9 Chambers of associated labour, the Chamber of municipalities, and the
10 socio-political Chamber, and as agreed by the assemblies of provinces,
11 including the province of Vojvodina at the joint session of all Chambers
12 held on the 10th of March and the provincial parliament of Kosovo at the
13 joint session of all Chambers held on the 23rd of March, 1989."
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Very well, Mr. Jokanovic. You had occasion to be reminded of this
16 event by this video. You saw yourself in the first row. Who else did you
17 recognise in the first row among the officials that you think are
19 A. I could see you. I could see Sinan Hasani. I could see the
20 president of the federal government or, rather, the Prime Minister, Ante
21 Markovic, as well as other prominent figures of our public life.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you. Please tell me, Mr. Jokanovic, after the
23 parliament session of the 23rd of March, did anyone, either in newspapers
24 or in public speeches or maybe in a non-public way, at any gathering at
25 all, question the procedure and the adoption of decisions in Kosovo
1 regarding these amendments?
2 A. There were no such objections voiced. On the contrary, and we can
3 see that in the documents of the League of Communists of Kosovo, it was
4 considered a great victory of the progressive forces in Kosovo. It was
5 considered to be a great victory of progressive forces over the
7 Q. But were there any objections at that session of the parliament of
9 A. No. I didn't hear any such objections, at least not before 1987
10 when a journalist from Kosovo, who I believe testified here, asked me
11 about the course of that session and told me approximately something to
12 the effect of the words in this indictment, and I answered him the same
13 way as I testified under oath before this honourable Tribunal.
14 Q. Thank you. After the parliament session of the 23rd of March, you
15 had talks with the delegation of the European parliament that visited
16 Kosovo; is that correct?
17 A. Yes. A very high-placed delegation of the European parliament
18 arrived. I received them and acquainted them with the general situation
19 and with the progress made in Kosovo. I spoke to them about the
20 constitutional amendments and the problems we are facing.
21 Q. We have to save time. Did they have any objections or
22 observations? Did they question in any way the procedure in the course of
23 that parliamentary session? Did they voice any problems they might have
24 had about the amendments?
25 A. No. They had no objections, they had no questions as to the
1 course of the session. That was not in dispute at all.
2 After that, I held a press conference for all the domestic and
3 foreign journalists, and I answered a great series of questions, and none
4 of the accredited journalists had any questions or doubts as to the work
5 of the parliamentary session. The same is true of the European
6 parliamentarians and all the future meetings.
7 Q. After the passage of the amendments, and I don't mean several
8 minutes later when the session continued after the 20-minute break, I mean
9 in the following weeks and months, did the parliament of Kosovo continue
10 to operate normally?
11 A. It operated normally, and already in May I was re-elected speaker
12 or president of the parliament of Kosovo for another one-year term.
13 Q. That was in May, because your term of office of one year had
15 A. Yes. And that was two months after this session.
16 A. Yes. I was re-elected unanimously. At that same session, the
17 member of the Presidency of Yugoslavia, Riza Sapundzija was re-elected by
18 secret ballot. Two candidates were nominated for the Presidency of
19 Kosovo. One of these candidates is not receive the necessary number of
20 votes and was not elected into the Presidency. The Assembly continued to
21 work normally and in June it adopted amendments to the constitution of
22 Kosovo. These amendments to the Kosovo constitution harmonised the Kosovo
23 constitution with the constitution of the Republic of Serbia and the
24 amendments that had previously been adopted by the Federal Assembly.
25 Q. All right. What about this June session of the Kosovo parliament?
1 Did it have any problems, and how did it work?
2 A. It worked quite normally. Again, as usual, I held an introductory
3 speech. I have reports to corroborate it here. The amendments were again
4 passed unanimously by the same Assembly, the same deputies, just as
5 happened at the previous session of the 23rd of March which only gave
6 approval to the amendments.
7 Q. All right. Tell me, now, what happened, if you know, because
8 after the expiry of your second term of office a new speaker of the
9 parliament was elected, so if you know, tell us how the parliament
10 continued to work in 1990. As far as I understand, until the end of your
11 term of office, there were no problems.
12 A. That is correct. I thanked the deputies. I still have the speech
13 that I held then. And after that, elections were held for the new
14 parliament of Kosovo. The parliament of Kosovo was elected in a new
15 composition. Sixty-four per cent of the citizens voted, and that
16 parliament worked normally at the beginning, electing Djordje Bozovic as
17 president. From December to June it worked normally. In June, very
18 serious problems occurred in the work of the Assembly.
19 Q. Why?
20 A. I know that because at the time I was vice-president of the
21 Serbian Assembly, and the president of the Assembly, Djordje Bozovic,
22 talked to the president of the Serbian Assembly who then informed me, in
23 view of the fact that I am from Kosovo, telling us that there were
24 problems in the Assembly because a group of deputies wanted, outside of
25 the agenda and beyond of the rules of procedure, to declare a declaration
1 on independence of Kosovo and the fact that Kosovo was a republic. So
2 this was the position taken by one group of deputies. The other group of
3 deputies opposed that. The normal working procedure was disrupted, and
4 the president of the Assembly, Djordje Bozovic, had to -- had to disrupt
5 the session on a number of occasions because there was a danger that
6 clashes would erupt between the deputies. One set of deputies wanted to
7 follow the agenda and the established procedure, whereas another set of
8 deputies wanted to read out the declaration on the independence of Kosovo.
9 Q. Please tell us, who was in that group who wanted to read the
10 declaration on the independence of Kosovo?
11 A. Well, I don't know. I was not there, I was not present. The
12 official statements always identified them as a group of deputies who
13 apparently read out this declaration in front of the Assembly building, in
14 front of the entrance.
15 Q. All right. So you don't know how many people were in that group?
16 A. I was not in Kosovo at the time. I can give you secondhand
17 information from the then president of the Kosovo Assembly who said that
18 there were about 40 deputies in that group.
19 Q. All right. He said about 40 of them. And the total number of
20 deputies was the same as when you were the president, 190?
21 A. Yes, 190 because the constitution was the same and I don't know
22 exactly how many people were in that group.
23 Q. What was the cause for that reaction of those deputies?
24 A. Well, the cause was the situation in Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia
25 started disintegrating already. Slovenia and Croatia had already declared
1 their independence, and a group of these deputies in Kosovo thought it was
2 the right moment for them to take the same path and to declare Kosovo an
3 independent republic. They naturally picked a moment that was most
4 advantageous for their causes.
5 Q. So this attempt of theirs to read the declaration on the steps
6 outside the Assembly building took place after the event that you
7 mentioned, the declaration of independence of Slovenia and Croatia?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So after they had announced their intention to secede.
10 A. Well, the intention of Slovenia to break away from Yugoslavia was
11 clear. The situation was already such that federal organs were not
12 functioning properly. Neither was the League of Communists. So the
13 situation was very tense, and that kind of atmosphere was very beneficial
14 to those who had the design of turning Kosovo into an independent
16 Q. All right. So Djordje Bozovic, who was your successor in that
17 post, who was the president of the Assembly after that, what did he do?
18 He went and spoke to the president of the Serbian Assembly?
19 A. Yes, that's right. They had telephone contacts and other
20 contacts. And then one day the president of the Assembly, with a large
21 group of deputies, came to Belgrade. He demanded a meeting. He wanted a
22 solution to be found, because he believed that that wasn't his
23 responsibility alone; that was something that the republican organs had to
24 deal with. And then a large meeting was organised, attended by the top
25 leaders from Serbia, including a group of deputies from Kosovo.
1 During that meeting, Djordje Bozovic briefed everyone on the
2 problems. He said that the situation was abnormal, and he could not
3 continue with his regular work, and as president of the Assembly, he could
4 not allow the Kosovo to be declared a republic, and he did not want to be
5 held responsible for that. He wanted instructions.
6 Q. What was my position regarding that?
7 A. I attended that meeting together with the president of the
8 Assembly who took me along in view of the fact that I was from Kosovo.
9 Other leaders from Serbia also attended the meeting, not just leaders from
10 Assembly but also from other organs, and I can give you their names
11 because I remember those people. Milo Nirminic [phoen], was there, Zoran
12 Andjelkovic, and so on.
13 However, the deputies from Kosovo were persistent, including
14 Djordje Bozovic. They wanted the Assembly to be dissolved temporarily.
15 That was a key issue. And then Djordje Bozovic also wanted to inform the
16 president of the Presidency - I believe you held that post at the time, I
17 think you did - so you came and attended that meeting briefly. You were
18 informed on what was going on, and your position was that they ought to go
19 back to Pristina and use the rules of procedure, apply them to give the
20 floor to those who wanted to speak, and those who were against the
21 declaration had to use that procedure to speak, although you spoke very
22 decisively, very firmly. Djordje Bozovic was somewhat anxious, and he
23 stood up, and those others from Serbia who attended the meeting, they
24 said, after your arrival, "Well, Djordje, perhaps you could still continue
25 with the work." And Djordje said, "No. I'm not the president of the
1 Assembly any more," and you left the meeting, saying that the Assembly
2 should go on with its work.
3 Q. However, the Assembly could not continue with its work.
4 A. No, not under normal, regular circumstances. Djordje Bozovic was
5 still president of the Assembly, and the deputies officially demanded a
6 temporary dissolution of the Assembly of Kosovo.
7 Q. So the session of the Assembly actually commenced.
8 A. It was scheduled, and it actually commenced, and the then deputy
9 Stane Dolenc on behalf of the deputies who were against that move,
10 condemned the conduct of the other group of deputies. He said that there
11 was no other solution but to dissolve the Assembly. And then problems
12 ensued, commotion, dissatisfaction of certain deputies, and then Djordje
13 Bozovic again disrupted or brought the session to an end.
14 Q. Were any decisions adopted?
15 A. No. No decisions were adopted. Simply a demand was addressed to
16 the Assembly of Serbia to dissolve the Kosovo Assembly.
17 Q. And did the Serbian Assembly adopt this demand? Did it approve
19 A. I wasn't present, so I couldn't tell you what was the result of
20 the vote. The atmosphere was not a regular one. However, this demand was
21 read out, and then a commotion ensued. The deputies wanted this to be
22 forwarded to the Serbian Assembly, and it was.
23 Q. And what was the reaction of the Serbian Assembly when it received
24 this demand?
25 A. In one of its sessions, which I did not attend for some private
1 reasons, the Serbian Assembly in this session held in the afternoon hours
2 adopted the law on temporary dissolution of the Assembly of Kosovo and the
3 Executive Council of Kosovo.
4 Q. What you just stated about the position of the Assembly and the
5 deputies of the Kosovo Assembly, and then you said that the Serbian
6 Assembly adopted the decision to dissolve the Kosovo Assembly temporarily.
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. Very well. What can you tell us about the so-called Kacanik
10 A. I'm very familiar with that term. It was frequently mentioned in
11 the media. I went to that area frequently. Kacanik is a small town in
12 Kosovo where an illegal session was held. Some deputies attended the
13 session. I don't know exactly who attended it, but secondhand or
14 thirdhand information indicate that the then vice-president of the Serbian
15 Assembly chaired that session and the session was held there. Now, who
16 exactly was present there and what exactly transpired there is something
17 that nobody really knows. But at any rate, the press described that as an
18 illegal gathering contrary to the Kosovo constitution, constitution of
19 Serbia, constitution of Yugoslavia, and it was a mono-ethnic session.
20 At the time, mono-ethnic decisions or decisions lacking the proper
21 procedural requirements were considered invalid, especially if they were
22 passed in violation of the constitution of Yugoslavia, constitution of
23 Serbia, and constitution of Kosovo.
24 Q. So it was in violation of all of these constitutions. All right.
25 And finally, please tell me briefly, what were your personal
1 relations with Albanians that you lived and worked with in Kosovo?
2 A. I was born, I grew up there. I was friends with Albanians. I
3 played with them as a child. We went to each other's houses, went to
4 school together. I have a lot of friends who are Albanian both when I was
5 a child and later on. To this day, I continue my contacts with not an
6 insignificant number of Albanians, mostly telephone contacts, but not with
7 Albanians in the territory of Kosovo but, rather, in the territory of
8 Central Serbia.
9 Q. Please tell us, what happened to your birth town, your birthplace,
10 the village where you were born? What is the situation like there now?
11 A. Well, the situation is tragic. Prior to the arrival of KFOR, my
12 village had 35 houses inhabited by Serbs, ten households of Roma
13 residents. All of these houses were first looted and then destroyed so
14 that nowadays there is not a single Serbian or Roma house left intact,
15 including my own, although Albanian neighbours wanted to protect my house
16 and some other houses in the village; however, that put themselves under
17 risk. As they told me, they were threatened that they could be
19 My friend, Albanian, sent me photographs of my house. So if you
20 want me --
21 Q. Put it on the ELMO. As I understood it, they first protected your
22 houses, and then after that they were powerless to do anything else?
23 A. After that, they were powerless. Not only my house. They wanted
24 to protect the house of my relative Bane Petrovic, who had helped some
25 people there, protected them from a paramilitary group, and they even gave
1 guarantees to Bane Petrovic, telling him to remain there in the village.
2 However, the guarantees lasted only some 15 days, and after that the same
3 neighbours told him, "We cannot protect you any longer." So he moved out.
4 And in the meantime, a friend of mine was also killed,
5 Mr. Radenovic.
6 Q. All right. Just put it on the ELMO, these photographs, and this
7 will bring the examination to a conclusion.
8 So this is your house in the village of Grmovo in Kosovo.
9 A. Yes, my house as it looked before and after the arrival of KFOR.
10 This is my house. This is my house as it looked, and nowadays there is
11 nothing left. Nothing remains of my house. The church has also been
12 destroyed, and a lot of monuments desecrated as well.
13 However, this was not done initially, at the very beginning.
14 Initially, only three Serb houses were set on fire, the houses belonging
15 to those who bore arms, in the police or in the army. And only after some
16 15 days, as Albanian neighbours told us, slowly they started taking off
17 construction material, roof tiles, doors, windows, and so on, everything
18 that could be detached, and then they continued destroying the houses,
19 whereas the church was blown up by an expert.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic. I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jokanovic, where do you now live?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the status in our terminology
23 of a temporarily displaced person. Therefore, in reality, I'm a refugee,
24 currently living in Belgrade. My two sons were in Pristina, however, they
25 live in Belgrade now as well, as do my other relatives who are dispersed
1 throughout Serbia, living in various collective shelters and various
2 outbuildings, and all of them used to be quite wealthy people before.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, we are going to deal with the exhibits
4 from the examination-in-chief now.
5 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes. There's, of course, the issue of the
6 transcript, which I understood the accused was going to take the witness
7 to as to some extracts. We haven't returned to that at all, but that's a
8 matter for him.
9 JUDGE KWON: First we have to deal with the records of political
10 meetings of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia and Kosovo. Should we
11 give the number?
12 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D253.
13 JUDGE KWON: That will be marked for identification until the
14 translation is done.
15 And the next, tape recording of the joint session. Transcript,
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be marked as D254.
18 JUDGE KWON: And next we have two news clips, first from Politika
19 and second from Rilindja.
20 THE REGISTRAR: D255.
21 JUDGE KWON: And then video clips.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Video clips, D256.
23 JUDGE KWON: And finally, the photos.
24 THE REGISTRAR: The photos will be marked as D257.
25 JUDGE KWON: Is there anything else you want to exhibit?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, would you like the ID admitted as
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't know. Mr. Milosevic, do you want the ID,
4 the identification, admitted?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you believe it to be useful,
6 useful evidence.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's for you to determine, not for us.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let it be admitted then.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Okay. So the ID will be marked as D258.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Jokanovic, are you ready to hand over the photos
12 as well as the ID? Or you can just hand over a photocopy of the ID.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if possible, I would like to
14 hand over a photocopy. And if you believe it to be important, I'm ready
15 to give up my ID and even these photographs which are important to me.
16 They're a memento. Because once you lose your home place, then you've
17 lost a lot.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We can have copies made of them.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, since the witness had
20 some other documents pertaining to a large number of meetings on
21 constitutional changes and from which you could see how broad this
22 activity was, how free the discussions were, what was discussed, this is a
23 whole set of documents. So if you believe that this would be of some use
24 to you, I believe that they could be admitted as exhibits. I did not have
25 time to deal with them in detail because I simply -- my time simply went
1 by much faster than I expected.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that's not the procedure. We
3 can't just admit documents like that. You have to introduce them through
4 the witness.
5 MR. NICE: Your Honour, there are a large number of them, and of
6 course I was interested to know to which particular parts of them, if any,
7 we were going in order that I could deal with them. As far as I'm
8 concern, I obviously -- it's a matter for the Chamber and the accused how
9 long he's allowed in evidence with any particular witness.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, we won't admit those.
11 Mr. Nice, you may begin your cross-examination.
12 MR. NICE: Yes. For my part, if it were convenient for the
13 Chamber, I would prefer to start tomorrow because I was expecting to deal
14 with a large number of additional documents and the documents we would
15 wish to put to the witness have yet to be marshalled and prepared in an
16 easily usable way. If you wish me to start today, of course I can and I
17 can put a couple of documents on the overhead projector.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. I think you may start, Mr. Nice.
20 MR. NICE: As you please.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
22 Q. We've heard a lot about publicity from you, in local press, and
23 we've heard a lot about allegations of bias in Western press. So I'm
24 afraid we don't have this copied in the way I would most prefer.
25 MR. NICE: May this document go on the overhead projector, please.
1 Thank you very much. First page. We're going to go through it all.
2 And Your Honour, what I would suggest is, if you allow me this
3 indulgence, we'll just look at this document today and then I'll produce
4 it tomorrow in such form as is convenient for all of these exhibits.
5 Q. Mr. Jokanovic what we have here, and I'll read from my version, is
6 something from the Washington Post of November the 29th, 1986. And it
7 includes within it --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it Mr. Nice's obligation, if he
11 wishes to submit a document, to also provide a copy for me and not only
12 provide a copy for the witness?
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you gave an explanation.
14 MR. NICE: Yes.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think he's going to produce that tomorrow. In
16 the circumstances, we can proceed. You can see it on the -- on your
17 monitor, Mr. Milosevic.
18 MR. NICE:
19 Q. Now, Mr. Jokanovic, this report, as we're going to discover,
20 includes the product of an interview with yourself, but I'd like you,
21 please, to help us with the general picture painted here for November of
23 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry. Will Your Honours give me one minute.
24 In order that things can be done sequentially, I'd rather start with the
25 one of 1982. It's the same topic, that is, how Kosovo's problems were
1 being described externally. You can put mine on and I'll read it on the
2 screen. Thank you.
3 I'll read, I hope, slowly enough. It comes from Pristina.
4 Can you just show me the top of the document so that we can see
5 the headline and byline. No, right at the top first. Thank you very
7 Q. New York Times, July the 12th, 1982. "Exodus of Serbians stirs
8 province in Yugoslavia" by Marvine Howe. Dateline Pristina.
9 "Danilo Krstic and his family are hardworking wheat and tobacco
10 farmers, Serbs who get along with their Albanian neighbours.
11 "'You have to love the place where you live to stay on the land
12 here,' Marko Krstic, the eldest son, told visitors to the farm at Bec, a
13 few miles from the Albanian border. There have been no serious troubles
14 between Serbians and Albanians in Bec, but Serbs in some of the
15 neighbouring villages have reportedly been harassed by Albanians and have
16 packed up and left the region.
17 "The exodus of Serbs is admittedly one of the main problems that
18 the authorities have to content with in Kosovo, an autonomous province of
19 Yugoslavia, inhabited largely by Albanians.
20 "Rioting Brought Awareness.
21 "Last year's riots --" so that would be the 1981 riots,
22 Mr. Jokanovic -- "in which nine people were killed, shocked not only the
23 troubled province of Kosovo but also the entire country into an awareness
24 of the problems of this most backward part of Yugoslavia, which is made up
25 of many ethnic groups.
1 "In June a 43-year-old Serb, Miodrag Saric, was shot and killed
2 by an Albanian neighbour, Ded Krasniqi, in a village near Djakovica, 40
3 miles south-west of Pristina. According to the official Yugoslavia press
4 agency TANJUG, it was the second murder of a Serb by an Albanian in Kosovo
5 this year. The dispute reportedly started with a quarrel over damage done
6 to a field belonging to the Saric family.
7 "The local political and security bodies condemned the murder as
8 'a grave criminal act' that could have serious repercussions, according
9 to the press agency. Five members of the Krasniqi family have been
10 arrested and investigations are continuing.
11 "The authorities have responded at various levels to violence in
12 Kosovo, clearly trying to avoid antagonising the Albanian majority.
13 Besides firm security measures, action has been taken to speed political,
14 educational, and economic changes."
15 There's then a short headline, "Past Errors Acknowledged."
16 "Privately, some officials acknowledge that the rise of Albanian
17 nationalism in a society that is based on the principle of equality of
18 nationalities is the result of past errors - at first neglect and
19 discrimination, and more recently failure to act against divisive forces
20 or even to recognise them."
21 I'll pause there. We're going to look at the rest of this article
22 which includes your own contributions to it, but there is a suggestion
23 here of recognition of past errors, neglect and discrimination against
25 Do you accept that this is a fair description of the position at
1 the time?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question is not proper,
3 Mr. Robinson.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because neglect and discrimination
6 is not being spoken about vis-a-vis the Albanians but vis-a-vis the Serbs.
7 This is something that is being ignored.
8 MR. NICE: It is not for the accused --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the question is quite legitimate
10 and proper. The witness is to answer it.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, if you could just repeat
12 your question briefly so that I'm sure to understand it properly.
13 MR. NICE:
14 Q. Certainly. Of the last paragraph I've read to you, where it
15 describes an acknowledgement by officials at the rise of Albanian
16 nationalism was based -- arose in part as a result of past errors, at
17 first neglect and discrimination - I'll come to the last bit later - do
18 you accept that neglect and discrimination, and I'll be neutral,
19 discrimination against one group or another, was a cause of the rise of
21 A. This article and what you are asking me now refers to mistakes in
22 the past by Albanians committed against Serbs. So this is the spirit of
23 the article. Mistakes from the past are discussed here, because in the
24 past Albanian nationalism was not dealt with, which made it possible for
25 it to spread. In 1981, this was the assessment of official organs of the
1 province and the federation, and they drew the consequences, and those who
2 were in power were punished in the province because of discrimination and
3 the exodus of Serbs. I think that these are the mistakes that are being
4 talked about here.
5 Q. Very well. It goes on, if you remember this paragraph, to say:
6 "More recently, a failure to act against divisive forces or even to
7 recognise them."
8 Now, "forces" are in the plural, "divisive" is the description.
9 What do you say? Just one divisive force or were there more than one?
10 A. The demonstrations themselves in 1981, as I have already said,
11 considerably disrupted inter-ethnic relations, and there was a cooling in
12 relations between neighbours, between the different groups.
13 Albanian nationalists, whose objective was an ethnically pure
14 Kosovo, felt that it was favourable for them to disrupt these relations
15 and to cause conflicts.
16 Q. So again, it's all the Albanians' fault, is it? I just want to be
17 quite sure what your position is and whether you think this newspaper's
18 got it right.
19 A. As I understand it, this article adopts a realistic approach
20 towards the position of Serbs, the killing of Serbs, and the errors
21 committed by the Kosovo leadership as well as the causes which led to
22 these large demonstrations.
23 Q. The killing of Serbs by 1982, the time of this article, yes?
24 You're saying that that was already well under way, was it?
25 A. I said in my testimony that there were already killings. There
1 were also other forms of pressure. And I cited in my testimony these very
2 same examples that are given in the article.
3 Q. Read on a little, then. "The nationalists have a two-point
4 platform, according to Becir Hoti, an executive secretary of the Communist
5 Party of Kosovo, first to establish what they call an ethnically clean
6 Albanian republic, and then the merger with Albania to form a Greater
8 "Mr. Hoti, an Albanian, expressed concern over political
9 pressures that were forcing Serbs to leave Kosovo. What is important now,
10 he said, is to establish a climate of security and create confidence."
11 Next page, please. Thank you very much. If we can go to the top
12 of the page. Or if the -- thank you very much.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I should say this should be the last
15 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.
16 Q. "The migration of Serbs is no ordinary problem, because Kosovo is
17 the heartland of Serbian history, culture, and religion. Serbs have been
18 in this region since the seventh century, long before they founded their
19 own independent dynasty."
20 And then this: "Fifty-seven thousand have left the region. Some
21 57.000 Serbs have left Kosovo in the last decade and the number increased
22 considerably after the riots of March and April last year, according to
23 Vukasin Jokanovic, another executive secretary of the Kosovo party."
24 Well, that's you, isn't it, Mr. Jokanovic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And your evidence -- not your evidence, your contribution on this
2 topic to the newspaper at this stage was that the riots of the previous
3 year, which you say were all Albanian separatist inspired, drove some 57
4 -- no, not 57.000 Serbs but drove a number of Serbs out of the community;
5 is that right?
6 A. That's probably what I said. The number of those who moved out is
7 probably much greater over a longer period, but this is probably the
8 figure that I gave at the time. I cannot remember this interview. Becir
9 Hoti, by the way, is a person that I know, and what he is describing was
10 the actual state of affairs at the time, just as it was what I was saying.
11 He was an Albanian, I was a Serb, we were implementing the same policy.
12 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.
13 Well, Your Honour, we'll come back to this tomorrow. If I can
14 have that version back, then we will provide this and the other
15 open-source material that we'll be relying on in part in a compendious
16 form that will be easy to handle.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jokanovic, we're going to adjourn now.
18 We're going to adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow morning at
19 9.00 a.m.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of
22 December, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.