1 Thursday, 2 December 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, to continue with your
8 WITNESS: VUKASIN JOKANOVIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]
11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the first exhibit, as promised, is now
12 available. It can be distributed. I'll explain what it is. It's a
13 collection of open-source material. I may be able to refer to every page
14 in it, I may not, because time is short and there's a great deal to cover
15 with this witness. But it seems more convenient to have a collection of
16 open-source material in chronological order, and if I have to be
17 selective, we can use the numbers on the top right-hand corner to find our
18 way through this particular exhibit.
19 If I don't refer to every page number, then the Chamber may decide
20 to withdraw certain pages at the end, but it seemed more convenient to
21 have it manageable in this way.
22 Q. We're looking at -- it's in English only, I'm afraid
23 Mr. Jokanovic. So may the usher very kindly display on the overhead
24 projector, if you'll give him one more copy, the second of the pages of
25 the document we were looking at yesterday afternoon, which is from The New
1 York Times, July 12, 1982.
2 We had, I think, looked at Mr. Jokanovic's quotation, and just to
3 pick that up, he explains -- this is right, Mr. Jokanovic, isn't it, you
4 described to this newspaper four reasons for departure; socio-economic,
5 normal migration, adverse socio-political climate, direct and indirect
7 JUDGE KWON: The ELMO should show the upper part.
8 MR. NICE: Sorry, yes.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Jokanovic?
12 A. I think it's correct. I certainly spoke of it in broader terms.
13 I spoke to this journalist more extensively, and this is the part that the
14 journalist chose to publish.
15 Q. Very well.
16 A. I said much more than this quotation.
17 Q. We're going to have to be very quick today, Mr. Jokanovic, because
18 in light of your evidence yesterday, there's a very great deal to cover.
19 However, the point that I want you to deal with is this: In this
20 newspaper report, you having an opportunity to explain what the position
21 was, you said nothing then about killings of Serbs by Albanians; correct?
22 A. Well, from this article, one can see that this was said by my
23 colleague, Mr. Hoti. I probably said the same thing and the journalist
24 didn't want to repeat the same thing twice.
25 Q. But you referred to the one incident, I think. But there's no --
1 the point is that there is no general complaint of killings. There's
2 complaints of other pressures, and we're going to look at this more a
3 little later in the sequence, but you weren't complaining at this stage of
5 A. May I repeat?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think the question is not quite
8 fair, because Mr. Jokanovic had first explained that the journalist had
9 chosen to quote another official of Albanian ethnicity, whereas he spoke
10 to the journalist more extensively. And you cannot infer from the article
11 that he had never spoken about any killings.
12 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's quite so, Mr. Nice.
14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes. That observation may or may not be
15 correct. I'm not actually sure that it is, but I am going to protest, if
16 I may, about the accused's repeated interruptions, if they occur, when he
17 comments on the evidence.
18 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, my point is this, and let's just deal with it: If
19 your description as generally given yesterday of the build-up to the
20 problems for Kosovo is correct, and if killings was an important part of
21 your concern, you would have put that at the top of your agenda, and you
22 would have mentioned that in detail to any journalist, wouldn't you?
23 A. Mr. Prosecutor, it is likely that Mr. Hoti and I were together
24 when we were speaking to that journalist and he chose to quote Hoti on
25 some things and me on other things. This also covers the killings,
1 because I had no reason not to mention such an obvious thing that my
2 colleague, the Albanian, Mr. Hoti, spoke about. It is a matter of
3 editorial policy, and it is the journalist's choice not to repeat the same
4 thing twice if the two of us interviewees worked in the same organisation
5 and gave the interview in one and the same room.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, can you draw my attention to where
7 Mr. Hoti is quoted as to referring to a killing?
8 MR. NICE: Well, he doesn't, Your Honour. I was going to make
9 that point. There's a single killing referred to and I simply have to
10 move on because time is so short.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: But it is not referred to by him, it's simply
12 referred to by the journalist.
13 MR. NICE: Correct, there's just the one. My point remains the
15 Q. I'm going to go back just briefly. '68 strikes or student unrest
16 simply matched -- didn't "simply" but it matched student unrest all around
17 Europe, not least in Paris; correct?
18 A. There were student demonstrations in Europe briefly, that's right.
19 However, the insurgency in Kosovo was not of the same nature. It was of a
20 different nature, and I described it yesterday.
21 Q. And indeed the army was sent in by the federal authorities.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. In part there was some -- there were some troops in Kosovo. It's
25 probable that they were sent there.
1 Q. 1981, social unrest in Kosovo; correct?
2 A. It was not social unrest. Those were great massive, aggressive
4 Q. Certainly the army was sent in again.
5 A. The army was called in by the Committee of the Province of Kosovo
6 because the police troops in Kosovo, among which the majority were
7 Albanians, was unable to suppress the demonstrations because of their
8 violence and aggressiveness. The troops, the army, did not suppress the
9 demonstrations. The army was just protecting the main government and
10 other buildings.
11 Q. And so that I can understand our position, you and I clearly,
12 Mr. Jokanovic, is it going to be your case throughout that the Kosovo
13 Albanians were entirely to blame for everything? Is that your case? Is
14 that your evidence?
15 A. That is not my evidence. I am not blaming Kosovo Albanians. And
16 please do not try to put a wedge between me and the great number of
17 Albanian friends I have.
18 I was talking about a great number of Albanians, nationalists,
19 separatists who were trying to separate Kosovo from Serbia. I distinguish
20 between nationalists, chauvinists on the one hand, and the Albanian people
21 on the other hand.
22 Q. In 1981, Serbia, Kosovo, and Vojvodina were subject to the 1974
23 constitution. Under that constitution, just to explain it in the most
24 general terms, Serbia was not a centralised republic. On the contrary,
25 the provincial organs had their own responsibility under the constitution
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 for implementing republican laws; correct?
2 A. Correct. I talked about that yesterday.
3 Q. Unfortunately, although we may be able to get them translated, the
4 articles haven't been translated into English and I'll have to summarise
5 their effect.
6 You know, Mr. Jokanovic, don't you, that the history you've
7 described to this Court yesterday is actually the history of this accused
8 effecting a centralisation of power in Serbia. That's what this was all
9 about, and we're going to explore it in detail; but first of all in
10 summary, do you accept that that's actually what was happening?
11 A. You made comments, Mr. Nice, with which I cannot agree. First of
12 all, I did not deal with history. I'm not an historian. I spoke about
13 events in which I was involved personally. And I want my evidence to be
14 only about the things which I attended and which I have personal knowledge
16 As for the centralisation which you ascribe to Mr. Milosevic, it
17 transpires directly from my evidence yesterday. The point was that Serbia
18 was only given back some essential functions that every other republic
19 had. In all the other areas, the position of the province within the
20 federation did not change in any way.
21 Q. We'll explore the change later. Sticking with the 1974
22 constitution, although there was this decentralised republic operating
23 through its provinces, circumstances could arise under Article 296 where,
24 if it was necessary, Serbia could act directly and legally; correct?
25 A. I don't know which constitution you are referring to and which
1 Article 296, whether it was of the constitution of Serbia, of Kosovo, or
2 the federal constitution. Is that a law maybe?
3 Q. The 1974 constitution of Serbia, Article 296, for example, allowed
4 the central government of Serbia to deal directly with municipal organs
5 other than going through the provincial body itself in certain urgent
6 circumstances, and this is an example of the constitution giving the
7 power, in justifiable circumstances, for central exercise of control. Are
8 you aware of that?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would appreciate it if you would
11 read that article out.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jokanovic, please wait a minute.
13 Mr. Milosevic wants to say something.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to ask you, should Mr. Nice
15 put this document before the witness? He's speaking about the
16 constitution, about a particular Article. I suppose the witness should
17 read this Article rather than have it interpreted for him by Mr. Nice, or
18 better said, misinterpreted.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: If the witness wants to see it, then it can be
20 placed on the ELMO.
21 MR. NICE: I can hand it to him in the Serbian. I simply don't
22 have time, and our translation facilities were completely --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, hand it to him, Mr. Nice. Hand it to him.
24 MR. NICE: Hand it to him. I have to say that the burden of
25 translation imposed by the documents produced yesterday overnight has
1 meant that -- [microphone not activated].
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, is the translation job going on of the
3 entire constitution?
4 MR. NICE: No.
5 JUDGE KWON: It's very odd for us not to have it at this moment.
6 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the position is that the relevant parts,
9 for our purposes, were translated at an earlier stage. The accused raised
10 this issue without providing translation.
11 You will recall that one of the documents produced yesterday that
12 was not translated included a large passage of words by this accused. It
13 seems to us that of the various priorities that we could give, that was
14 probably the passage that had to have the priority. And in light of that,
15 the resources simply haven't been able to accomplish anything else and
16 indeed they haven't even been able to accomplish that yet.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, had these documents been disclosed
18 before, in the course of pre-trial or pre-defence --
19 MR. NICE: These particular documents had come to us a few days
20 before, but as to the untranslated documents, the expectation was that,
21 although they hadn't arrived yet, the Defence were still coping with it.
22 So we weren't going to double up the translation exercise because the
23 assumption was that those documents were going to arrive yesterday.
24 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, have you had a chance to consider the Article to
25 which I referred?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. My proposition is correct, isn't it? There were powers -- there
3 were powers in Serbia, Belgrade, to operate directly if the circumstances
4 justified it.
5 A. You are right only in part because this Article says that in the
6 area of national defence, when there is an emergency, provincial
7 authorities -- or, rather, republican authorities may communicate with
8 provincial authorities -- or, rather, may communicate with municipal
9 authorities through provincial authorities, or even directly, but they
10 have to inform the provincial authorities thereof. However, this doesn't
11 change in any way what I said earlier, that Serbia had no powers in the
12 area of national defence. It had to exercise them through provincial
14 Q. Next point: Throughout the point, of course the constitution of
15 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia itself allowed the federal authorities
16 to intervene as they had done by sending in the army in 1968 and 19 --
17 well, that was before the 1974 constitution -- in 1981, to deal with
18 problems and disturbances.
19 A. The army was a unified organisation in Yugoslavia. It could be
20 used only if the supreme body in Yugoslavia proclaimed a state of
21 emergency and decide so. Generally speaking, it was the provincial
22 authorities, again, who were in charge of implementing even federal laws.
23 Q. Pre-1981 and I think 1986, you were the secretary of the League of
24 Communists in Kosovo; correct?
25 A. I was one of the executive secretaries in the provincial
1 committee. Unfortunately, I was not the secretary. I was one of the
2 executive secretaries. It would take a lot of time for me to explain now
3 the whole organigramme.
4 Q. And just to try to keep things in an orderly way, from 1986 to
5 1988 you were a member of the Kosovo Presidency. Yes?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So when we come to the year 1986, a couple of things happened.
8 First of all, the memorandum of the academy, the well-known memorandum,
9 was leaked or published or whatever it was; correct?
10 A. There has been a lot of talk in Kosovo about the memorandum, but
11 in fact, few people have read it. I was one of the few who actually
12 managed to read it. A great number of meetings were held to discuss the
13 memorandum, attended by people who mostly haven't read it.
14 Q. You told us yesterday of Ivan Stambolic being the person who
15 triggered the process of reform. Before he was killed, Ivan Stambolic
16 wrote a book.
17 MR. NICE: I'm afraid this again has exceeded the translation
18 capacity that's available to me. There are only six lines that I want
19 this witness to read. If I may place it on the overhead projector?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.
21 MR. NICE: I've got the original book here. This is in ERN form.
22 Here's the book as I hold it up, but we've got an ERN -- a registered
23 version of it there.
24 Q. Would you be good enough, please, Mr. Jokanovic, to read from --
25 the book, by the way, is written in the form of question and answer, so
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 one needs to read the question, starting "Ipak, izborili ..." and then the
2 answer, please.
3 A. Yes. You mean: "In the year 1986, parliaments finally took the
4 decision to proceed with amending the constitution of the SFRY and the
5 constitution of Serbia in those parts which relate to the position of
6 Serbia and the provinces within it. I thought then that we had taken a
7 course for the better. Regrettably, as you know now, the forces of
8 resistance became active in a hurry, ready for quite a different type of
9 change, with violence and for the worst."
10 However, this is not quite true. Ivan Stambolic is not quite
11 correct here, because the changes began long before 1986, and Ivan
12 Stambolic chaired one of the first meetings that I attended. I didn't say
13 that he initiated it.
14 Q. Well, before we move on, and I'll come back to the Stambolic
15 quotation shortly, do you accept -- first of all, Raif Dizdarevic, who was
16 the Bosnian president of the Presidency in 1988 and 1989, has written his
17 own book. Is he somebody who you have any reason to doubt as to the
18 things he describes?
19 A. I wouldn't say I have grave doubts, but at the same time, I do not
20 have full trust, especially because it is mostly about the wisdom of
21 hindsight. As we say, men and generals are wise after the battle.
22 Q. If -- and I don't have his book with me but I have a note of what
23 is contained in it. If he expressed the view that the 1981 events that
24 you've described in the way you have gave rise to increasing tendencies
25 for Serb nationalism to be expressed, would you agree with him?
1 A. You wish to impose this view that this was all caused by Serbian
2 nationalism. I spoke about the worsening of inter-ethnic relations, about
3 the cooling down, about the insecurity and lack of perspective for Serbs
4 as well as about the fact that Serbs were being pressured and that they
5 wanted to receive assistance in order to exercise their normal rights and
6 to lead a normal life.
7 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, that's not what I asked you. I wasn't asking you
8 whether this was all caused by Serb nationalism. I simply asked you, and
9 perhaps you could help us, whether the events of 1981 gave rise to
10 increased tendencies for Serb nationalism to be expressed. I was careful
11 in my choice of words. Do you agree with me?
12 A. I don't agree. You speak about increased tendencies of the Serb
13 nationalism, whereas I speak of the unequal position in which Serbs and
14 Montenegrins found themselves in and the fact that they were pressured
15 into moving out. This deviates from all of the conclusions passed by all
16 of the organs in Serbia federation and the province. What you are giving
17 is a legal qualification that does not correspond to the actual state of
18 affairs at the time and the official conclusions adopted and publicised by
19 all of the official state organs.
20 Q. There was, at the end of the December 1981, when you were in the
21 position of the Communist Party that you've described, there was a
22 three-day session of the Central Committee of the Serb communists. Can
23 you remember if you attended that meeting?
24 A. In 1981, I was not in the committee. I was in the executive
25 administration of the province, and I was provincial secretary for
1 legislation, and I was never a member of the Central Committee of the
2 League of Communists of Yugoslavia.
3 Q. So you didn't go to that meeting in any capacity?
4 A. No, I did not attend that meeting in any capacity. In my life, I
5 attended only one --
6 Q. Let's go back, then, to the start of the process of reform. I
7 hear what you say about an earlier meeting, but Ivan Stambolic says that
8 he thought "we had taken a course for the better. Regrettably, the forces
9 of resistance became active in a hurry, ready for quite a different type
10 of change, with violence and for the worst."
11 Is this the position, Mr. Jokanovic, and I want to express it
12 compendiously for you to have a chance to answer: The process of reform,
13 just as with the emergence of the memorandum, provided opportunities that
14 this accused took, in each case adopting however silently the opinions of
15 the memorandum and using the process of reform to establish his power
17 A. I disagree with your conclusion. I believe it to be not correct.
18 As for this passage from Ivan Stambolic's book, which was written many
19 years later, many years after the event, it does not say which are these
20 forces that want the change for the worse. Those forces that did want
21 that change for the worse and that wanted violence existed primarily in
22 Kosovo, but he does not specify what forces those were.
23 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, the pressure for reform of the constitution wasn't
24 coming from the Kosovo Albanians, was it? It was coming from the
25 Communist Party, it was coming from Belgrade, and it was coming from
2 A. The term "pressure" isn't appropriate in this context. The 1981
3 demonstrations themselves initiated criticism and demands to change 1974
4 constitution. These demands and criticisms were heard in Kosovo, Serbia,
5 and at the federation level. And this was discussed by the Central
6 Committee of Yugoslavia, which included communists from all republics and
7 provinces, including a large number of Albanians from Kosovo. This was
8 not pressure but, rather, a proposal to review and propose various
9 solutions in order to achieve unity in the Republic of Serbia.
10 MR. NICE: Next open-source document which will -- starts at the
11 top right-hand corner, number 619. If that could go on the overhead
12 projector, please.
13 Q. While this is being prepared for display, Mr. Jokanovic - and the
14 usher can get on with it, yes, please - just remember that I'm looking for
15 a couple of things -- on this one, three things; whether the reporting by
16 international press is fair, because of allegations that have been made in
17 this court that the international press was in the hands of American or
18 some other Western conspiracy, I think; second, what you were saying
19 yourself; and third, what's the evidence of what was actually happening on
20 the ground? I don't have time to go through this report in full, and I
21 hope I do it justice by the passages I select.
22 This comes from the Washington Post of 19 -- November 29, 1986.
23 Paragraph 1 speaks of growing tension --
24 MR. NICE: And, usher, we're going to move through it quite
25 swiftly if you want to, on this occasion, help us. Thank you so much.
1 Q. Since -- paragraph 2: "Since the outbreak of riots in 1981,
2 authorities ... have faced a steady challenge from separatist and
3 nationalist groups among the dominant Albanian population. More than
4 1.000 people have been jailed for seeking ... independence from Serbia."
5 I'm probably reading too fast. I'll slow down.
6 "The significance of this conflict has been multiplied this year
7 by the emergence of concern among Yugoslavia's Serbs ... about 'forced
9 "Small farmers have --" I'm skipping words to save time. "Small
10 farmers ... have been steadily leaving the province's cities and the small
11 Serbian villages ... More than 20.000 have emigrated since 1981 out of a
12 total population of ... 220.000. ... the Albanian population ... is
13 expanding at the fastest rate in Europe.
14 "The local Serbs, arguing that Albanian-dominated provincial
15 authorities have offered them no protection from violent attacks, have
16 signed petitions and staged ... demonstrations outside Pristina ... and
17 they sent delegations to press their case in Belgrade ...
18 "The acts have inflamed nationalist feeling amongst Serbians
19 outside Kosovo and prompted demands by the intellectuals and even Serbian
20 communist political leaders for constitutional changes and other drastic
21 action to stop the emigration and to restore Serbia's control over Kosovo.
22 The Serbian outbursts, in turn, have provoked concern by leaders of
23 Yugoslavia's five other, smaller republics who sympathise with some
24 complaints but are wary of Serbian national aspirations."
25 Then we come to you: "The last delegation --" Mr. Jokanovic,
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 "The last delegation of Serbs to visit Belgrade earlier this month ...
2 warned that they would take up arms against their perceived tormentors
3 among the Albanians."
4 And you warned this: "'This should be very seriously considered.
5 This is a warning, and we understand it that way,' said Vukasin Jokanovic
6 ... 'We must take urgent measures to win back the confidence of these
8 Pausing there. Did you, at that stage, think that it was a matter
9 for taking up arms?
10 A. I have never in my life uttered these words. I never called for
11 taking up arms. All of my statements were aimed at preserving peace. I
12 kept saying that peace was our ultimate goal, not weapons, because weapons
13 would inflict terrible damages upon both Serbs and Albanians.
14 Q. Very well.
15 A. This is an invented story that has nothing to do with the truth.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is completely inappropriate.
18 The witness is supposed to answer something that is not even stated in
19 this article. The article doesn't say that the witness said that they
20 need to take up arms. No. It says quite the contrary.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I think you're being overly
22 defensive of the witness. The witness can take care of himself and has
23 taken care of himself. You don't need to be so interventionist.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. Mr. Robinson, I
25 suppose that you will agree with me that witness should be given the text
1 of the article that he is questioned about. Otherwise, it's very
2 difficult for him to follow the examination. He must be given the text so
3 that he can read it.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. If he wants the text. Do you want the
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask
7 Mr. Nice not to take advantage of the fact that I don't speak English and
8 not to ascribe me the words that I have never uttered in my life. This is
9 a text in English that I cannot understand. I don't think that it is fair
10 to publicly state that I was the one who issued a call to arms. This is
11 completely untrue, and in fact it's an insult.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you have dealt with it quite
13 adequately --
14 MR. NICE: Yes.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- Mr. Jokanovic.
16 MR. NICE:
17 Q. Now, apart from that observation, the description in the Western
18 press, the Washington Post we've read so far, do you accept that's a fair
19 description of what was happening in Kosovo in 1986?
20 A. This description, as you read it out, contains partial truth but
21 not full truth. It is the situation as it -- described as it was
22 perceived by the journalist.
23 Q. Bottom of this page we have further exploration or -- or
24 explanation of what was going on, and it says: "A package of measures was
25 adopted to slow emigration, including a ban on land sales by members of
1 one ethnic group to members of another."
2 Then we come to the next page. At the top of page 620: "Even a
3 brief visit to Kosovo, which is about half the size of Maryland, quickly
4 reveals seemingly intractable roots of ethnic tension."
5 And then you're quoted, Mr. Jokanovic, as saying this: "Laws will
6 never stop the emigration. The law --" apparently the law on banning land
7 sales -- "is only accepted by people who really don't want to emigrate."
8 Pausing there. Was that indeed your opinion, that laws would not
9 stop emigration?
10 A. Well, that probably was my opinion at the time, because it is
11 certain that the laws could not stop emigration. There were a number of
12 other -- there were a number of ways to bypass the law, if I can say it
13 that way. What I was committed to was the return of trust, return of good
14 neighbourly relations, and adoption of adequate laws, not laws on banning
15 the sales of property.
16 Q. Taking something out of order. Just at the bottom of this page,
17 please, Usher, we see the following: "Few killings have been recorded
18 since the 1981 riots, but in the three months of July, August, and
19 September, authorities recorded 34 assaults by Albanians on Serbians. Two
20 instances of rape provoked outraged demonstrations near Pristina and
21 motivated the last, angry delegation that marched on the federal
22 parliament in Belgrade."
23 Now, is that an accurate picture? We're trying to get an accurate
24 picture, not from one side or the other. Few killings since 1981, and the
25 recording of 34 assaults in three months, and two instances of rape. Has
1 the journalist got it right?
2 A. I have stated and I can repeat that the pressures were intensified
3 after the 1981 demonstrations. So it is possible. It could be that in
4 three months only there were 34 assaults and two rapes. I don't have
5 accurate information, but I have no reason to doubt this.
6 It is true that after the demonstrations the pressure was
7 intensified, and there was an increased number of attacks.
8 Q. Last point from this news report, a different kind, to assist the
9 Judges with your experiences to how it was that this economic migration in
10 part happened.
11 If we go a little way up the page, please. Somebody called
12 Abrashi - I've now forgotten where he's identified - explains what
13 happened. It says this: "'Let me explain the psychology of an Albanian
14 farmer about the land,' said Abrashi, himself an Albanian. 'For centuries
15 these people have been defining their existence and their worth only
16 through land. They are ready to make great sacrifices, to work 30 years,
17 to go and work abroad, to live in terrible conditions so as to collect,
18 dinar by dinar, the money to buy a piece of land. And the land must be
19 near that of the rest of the family. For that they will pay almost any
21 "'Land prices in Kosovo, despite its poverty, are five times
22 those in Serbia and typically range around $35.000 for an acre of good
23 farmland,' Abrashi said. Newspapers have reported sales of farms for over
24 $1 million. As a result, Serbs, who unlike the Albanians have attractive
25 alternatives outside the province, have had a powerful economic incentive
1 to sell their land to Albanians."
2 He goes on to say that for those who remain there has been
3 harassment. But I'm just focusing. This description of the way migration
4 occurred is true, isn't it? Just to finish my question, the Judges may
5 not remember this from other evidence: Albanians in Kosovo live in
6 compounds with several families or linked families or parts of families
7 living together, whereas the Serbs live in perhaps the way that's more
8 familiar to those of us in Western Europe. Would that be roughly right?
9 A. You mean this last bit of your question.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. You spoke in very broad terms, and many questions can stand from
12 that, and many comments can be given. Now, I do not agree with what
13 Mr. Abrashi stated here, because I think that he tried to put it in milder
14 terms and in more relative terms.
15 As for the way Albanians live, I'm very familiar with that. I
16 visited many families and many Albanian homes on various occasions, and I
17 can tell you that there is very little difference in the way rural
18 Albanian and Serbian families live. There are practically no differences.
19 Serbian rural families are also very attached to their land. They also
20 have patriarchal traditions similar to Albanian ones.
21 And was for the Western way of life, yes that could apply to some
22 of the families living in Pristina or in other big cities, and the same
23 would apply to Albanian families living in cities.
24 Q. Coming back to one part of your answer and one part of my
25 question. Was one of the ways in which emigration -- and I'm only saying
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 one of the ways, Mr. Jokanovic; one of the ways in which emigration was
2 encouraged or stimulated, that Albanians would pay a very great deal of
3 money for land, making offers that their Serb neighbours might find it
4 hard to refuse?
5 A. The better way to phrase it would be one of the causes. That
6 would be the proper way. I am very familiar with that. May I explain?
7 Because it's hard to say whether it's true or not true, I need to explain.
8 As the strategy existed to achieve the ethnically clean Kosovo, I could
9 explain that to Their Honours, if they wish me to.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: On this point, yes, very briefly.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specific examples that I can quote
12 from my village in Tankosic. First they would go to the most prominent
13 farmer, most prominent host in that village, who determines the rules, the
14 social rules that will apply in the village, and a very high price would
15 be offered for his land in order to destroy the unity, the harmony in the
16 village. And once they enter the village, all other properties would
17 receive much smaller, much lower price for their property, whereas the
18 last properties in the village would be sold for practically nothing. And
19 this was all done in order to cleanse the area of Serb inhabitants.
20 My village, Tankosic, was inhabited exclusively by Serb residents,
21 and in 1990, it became ethnically clean, and only the first property
22 bought in the village achieved a very high price, and all other properties
23 were sold for a much lower price. This is how they break the fabric, the
24 harmonious fabric of a society, and this is how they introduce a feeling
25 of insecurity into a village.
1 Over a longer period of time, 700 settlements in Kosovo became
2 ethnically clean.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, please continue.
4 MR. NICE:
5 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, the article we've been looking at concludes on page
6 621 with the single sentence attributed to you: "We did not deal with the
7 emigration for a long time, and now that it has reached this stage, it is
8 very difficult to break the chain of events."
9 Was that your view, and indeed is it your view now, that by having
10 failed to deal with emigration for a long time, that is emigration of the
11 Serbs, the process was pretty well unstoppable?
12 A. This statement confirms what I've just told you, because once you
13 break up the ethnic fabric of a society, when people don't have proper
14 conditions for schooling, for other needs they have, then it is very
15 difficult to maintain several households and to lead a normal way of life.
16 And in that context I gave the statement, and this is a very complex
18 Q. We see in this report, apart from the reference to the few
19 killings since 1981, again no expressed reliance by you - and you were
20 spoken to by the journalists - no expressed reliance by you on killings of
21 Serbs as being a cause of something at the top of your mind; correct?
22 A. I don't know what you're referring to. I would like to see that.
23 Q. It's not -- the point is, in the article there's no reference by
24 you to there having been killings. There is reference in the article to
25 there having been a "few killings since 1981," and I've already dealt with
1 that. And I'm just trying to get a fair picture for the Chamber.
2 By 1986, we aren't dealing with the position of substantial number
3 of killings by Albanians of Serbs or anything like that. We're dealing
4 with other, maybe very serious, but other problems; correct?
5 A. I have to say that I failed to understand you. I don't understand
6 what you're asking me. And, Your Honour, I have read the instructions
7 indicating that the witness needs to make it known whenever he or she does
8 not understand something and has a right to have it explained to him or
9 her. I don't think this is an appropriate way, to read out an article,
10 several articles, and then put ten questions to me on the basis of that.
11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I've made my question, and unless the
12 Chamber --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me see if I can put the question that
14 Mr. Nice put to you. What he's saying is that in the entire article,
15 there is no reference by you to killings by Albanians of Serbs or anything
16 like that, saying that you referred to other factors explaining migration,
17 but no reference to killings by Albanians of Serbs. Can you answer that?
18 And you can provide an explanation if you -- it need not be yes or no.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This interview was held in 1982,
20 which means that it was 22 years ago. It is very difficult for me to
21 remember what I stated on the occasion. I never even knew that it was
22 published, especially not in The New York Times that I never read anyway.
23 It is true that I spoke in broader terms, that I explained the
24 problem of emigration in broader terms. I spoke of various kinds of
25 pressure, murders, rapes, and everything else that was going on, because I
1 was a member of a commission that dealt with that. Therefore, I could not
2 have just uttered one sentence to this journalist. It must have been a
3 longer interview and then the journalist himself selected the bits that he
4 wanted to put into the article, and perhaps this information quoted here
5 about the murders was something that he had obtained from me.
6 So I'm sure that I described the situation in Kosovo as it was at
7 the time.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Earlier you said that another colleague was also
9 interview and that he might have dealt with the question of killings, or
10 did I misunderstand you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I don't know English, that's what
12 I understood Mr. Nice to say. He mentioned the name of Hoti and those
13 murders. I trusted what he said.
14 If I had the text before me, if I could see the article, then I
15 might be able to give better answers to the questions rather than
16 responding to what Mr. Nice is imputing to me. He is putting words in my
17 mouth which I never spoke or even thought.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jokanovic, the last series of questions relate
19 to an article in 1986, and the earlier questions in which Hoti was
20 referred to relate to an article in 1982. Do you recollect whether you
21 were interviewed on separate occasions and that these questions and facts
22 relate to two separate occasions? The first -- the author of the article
23 in 1982 is Marvine Howe, and that in 1986 is Jackson Diehl.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have been in public
25 life, in political life, for 30 years. I have given countless interviews,
1 engaged in countless discussions, made large numbers of speeches. I
2 really cannot recall all the occasions on which I gave interviews or
3 talked to people from the time I entered political life until the time I
5 As Your Honour said, yes, there are two articles here, but I
6 cannot recall what I said on each occasion. If I had the text before me
7 in my own language, then I would be able to comment.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: And we take that into consideration in assessing
9 the evidence.
10 Go ahead, Mr. Nice.
11 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.
12 Q. I'm going to move now to 1987, and you will understand,
13 Mr. Jokanovic, that I'm taking you through matters chronologically and at
14 as deliberate a speed as is possible with the time constraints in order
15 that we can see things as they developed, to assist the Court.
16 In 1987, in April, in Kosovo Polje --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, could you just hold for a minute.
18 MR. NICE: Of course.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I've been considering the question of
21 fairness to the witness, because it is a fairly substantial document that
22 you're going through, and it's not translated into his own language. Now,
23 the Chamber has in the past allowed both parties to examine on documents
24 which are not translated when they are fairly brief.
25 What is the explanation for not having it translated into his
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 language, into B/C/S?
2 MR. NICE: First of all, there is no need under the Statute to do
3 so, and it hasn't been the practice of this Chamber. Secondly, although
4 I've taken him through these passages somewhat extensively in order to
5 meet any allegation or comment of unfairness, and as you will have
6 appreciated, nearly all that I've relayed has been matters outside his
7 particular personal knowledge in the sense that it wasn't him as an
8 interviewee but it was him to comment on a very general description, and
9 it simply wouldn't be possible, with the limitation of valuable
10 interpretation resources or translation resources, to have documents that
11 are prima facie admissible like this translated into the language of the
13 Your Honour, Mr. Struggles, who sits here, and I have been
14 discussing how much more of these we are going to rely on in any event.
15 Maybe not very much, for reasons of time, and if so, they will be only
16 selected items. But when witnesses come with the very limited information
17 available to us on the 65 ter summaries, we have to prepare a range of
18 materials to deal with what they may say. Sometimes it's short notice.
19 After all, witnesses are comparatively short notice with this accused and
20 this series of witnesses, and it simply wouldn't be realistically
21 possible, probably, to get something like this translated into B/C/S. I
22 don't know, I'll ask Ms. Dicklich how long --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's the substantial nature of the document that
24 worries me. But you say that you will only be dealing with certain
25 selective parts.
1 MR. NICE: If at all. And I repeat that the number of items that
2 I've read out so far that relate to this witness have been perhaps ten
3 lines at the most, and for the rest I've been asking his comment on a
4 general description and I've been attempting to ensure that that is the
5 evenhanded description insofar as the press have got it right that emerges
6 from the press report.
7 So I would press the Chamber not to restrict us from using
8 documents in this way given that it complies with the regulations of the
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Nice, but I'm bound to say that I
11 for one, in assessing the evidence, will take that into consideration.
12 MR. NICE: It's a necessary limitation.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
14 MR. NICE:
15 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, can we move now to April of 1987, where the accused
16 went to Kosovo Polje twice, I think, and where he made his famous, "You
17 will not be beaten again" speech. Were you there?
18 A. I didn't attend that rally. I was in Kosovo, however. I was in
19 Pristina, working in the government organs, not the party organs. The
20 rally in Kosovo Polje was a party rally attended by members of the League
21 of Communists, and I don't know who else attended because I wasn't there.
22 The president of the provincial leadership was there, as far as I
23 can recall, and those who were professionally employed in the League of
24 Communists of Kosovo. So it's correct that in 1987, Milosevic was in
25 Kosovo Polje.
1 Q. And before making his "You will not be beaten again" speech, it's
2 right, isn't it, that stones, prepared and in a lorry, were thrown at the
3 police who inevitably retaliated? That's right, isn't it?
4 A. Unfortunately, I don't know that. I don't know what you're
5 referring to.
6 Q. If time allows, I'll show you a clip that deals with it, but I'll
7 come back to that later.
8 As a result of --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the point of that, Mr. Nice, if the witness
10 wasn't there?
11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, hearsay rules do not, of course, restrict
12 evidence in this place, and he's a member of the Communist Party. This is
13 all very local, and there is -- and I will play it after the break. There
14 is a passage that goes to suggest that this was indeed planned, and it's
15 something that I'm going to suggest that this witness would have known
17 May I move on?
18 Q. As a result of what he said, "You will not be beaten again," the
19 view was taken --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: I must say, Mr. Nice, that's the third time that
21 has been referred to. It sounds to me, today, as though it's a speech
22 you're making rather than cross-examining the witness.
23 MR. NICE: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I hope not. Sorry. I'm not
24 sure which bit Your Honour is concerned about.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: "You will not be beaten again."
1 MR. NICE: I'm sorry, yes. No, no. I see, yes. No, there's
2 nothing in a speech about it. I'm trying to get the sequence of events
3 before the Court. I'm trying to get the sequence of events before the
4 Court because it has a significant impact on the approach that the
5 Prosecution takes to 23rd of March, 1989 events.
6 Q. As a result of what was said, there was a disciplining of the
7 accused by the party, wasn't there, because what he said was out of line
8 with the brotherhood and unity because it effectively espoused a national
9 cause, the Serb cause.
10 A. That's not correct. By Their Honours' leave, let me reiterate:
11 I did not attend that rally. I was a member of the League of Communists,
12 but I was a member of the Presidency of Kosovo, which was a state organ.
13 I know quite a lot about what happened from the media, from radio
14 and television. I saw the entire speech. This has been published in
15 various books and newspapers. And what you are quoting, "No one will beat
16 you again," this has been taken out of context. Let me try to explain
17 what the crux of this speech was in order to clarify --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jokanovic, I think you have answered the
19 question. Just let's move on.
20 MR. NICE: Yes.
21 Q. The next thing that happens, and it's in 1987, is that the accused
22 replaced Ivan Stambolic as president of the Communist Party, and I'd like
23 you, please, to look at a short clip that shows something of that. It's
24 one of two clips that I intend to play, subject to going back to play the
25 other one.
1 [Videotape played]
2 "NARRATOR: To oust of the president's man, Milosevic canvassed
3 every possible vote.
4 "[No interpretation]
5 "NARRATOR: It was clearly an overwhelming victory for Milosevic.
6 He savoured the moment.
7 "[No interpretation]"
8 MR. NICE:
9 Q. Does that summary of events concerning Stambolic's removal and the
10 accused's succeeding to the presidency of the Communist Party accord with
11 your recollection of events?
12 A. I was not a member of the League of Communists of Serbia. I did
13 not attend that meeting. I did not attend any meetings of the League of
14 Communists at the time because I was a member of the Presidency of Kosovo,
15 so I attended meetings of the state bodies.
16 This exhibit, as it is called here, I think has now been shown to
17 a witness who did not participate in these events. As Their Honours have
18 observed, I have testified only to events in which I participated
19 personally, things that I saw and heard myself. As for my comments,
20 Mr. Nice --
21 Q. I wants your comments on two aspects, because obviously the change
22 in the leadership of the Communist Party was something --
23 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wished to make a correction
2 in the transcript so as to avoid the witness being impeached. It says
3 here, "I was not a member of the League of Communists of Serbia." The
4 witness could not have said this. He could have said he was not a member
5 of the leadership of the League of Communists of Serbia, that he did not
6 attend a meeting, but he was a member of the League of Communists. I
7 don't want it to appear that the witness said something untrue. He could
8 only have said, "I was not a member of the leadership of the League of
9 Communists of Serbia," not, "I was not a member of the League of
10 Communists of Serbia."
11 I'm reading from the transcript. In the transcript it says, "I
12 was not a member of the League of Communists of Serbia." This is not
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I was not a member of the
15 Central Committee of the League of Communists of Serbia, the Central
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks for the --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But you were a member of the League
19 of Communists.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks for the clarification.
22 Mr. Nice, the Chamber is giving some thought to the line of
23 cross-examination and whether -- and how helpful it is, because you're
24 asking the witness questions in relation to issues like the last one, in
25 which he was not directly involved. Of course we take in hearsay here,
1 but it's really a question of how helpful it is to --
2 MR. NICE: My questions, if I may say so, will show the
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the point has changed, though, with the
5 intervention of the accused just now. The point's been clarified because
6 the answer that came up was he was not a member of the League of
7 Communists. We now know that that's wrong, so the point has in fact been
8 resolved helpfully by the accused himself.
9 MR. NICE: I'm grateful.
10 Q. And my two questions arise from the clip that we've looked at,
11 matters, I suggest, that are going to be in your knowledge. First of all,
12 the accused's takeover of the Communist Party, or the way he presented it
13 was on the basis of the reforms that he wanted to push through in part; is
14 that correct? Because he uses it. He says, "Nobody is going to stand in
15 the way of our reforms." Is that right, that he took over the leadership
16 in part, or he justified it in part because of the reforms?
17 A. That's your comment. I am not an analyst. I can give you my
18 opinion, if that's relevant for the Chamber.
19 Q. As I must --
20 A. I am not an analyst who can analyse all political events.
21 Q. The second question arising from the same clip: Azem Vllasi was,
22 of course, Albanian, communist, and a former close associate of the
23 accused. On the clip he says that everyone was canvassed hard for their
24 vote, although he declined to support the accused.
25 Did you discuss this with Vllasi ever?
1 A. I know Azem Vllasi very well. He was formerly a friend of mine,
2 which doesn't mean he may not be a friend again in the future. I say a
3 former friend of mine because of the events that followed. Azem Vllasi
4 was a closer associate of mine than he was of Mr. Milosevic's. Whether
5 pressure was exerted on him or somebody else, I don't know.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jokanovic, the question was did you discuss
7 this with Vllasi ever? What's the answer to that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I talked to Vllasi on several
9 occasions, but he never told me that pressure had been exerted on him. We
10 discussed numerous issues.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
12 MR. NICE: Very well.
13 Q. So we move from 1987 to 1988. Now, I think you told us you may
14 have been present at one Central Committee meeting of the Communist Party
15 of Yugoslavia. I cut you off in your answer, but is that right?
16 A. I don't remember exactly what year it was, but the topic was
17 Kosovo, and the president of the Central Committee, I remember that
18 Korosec, the Slovene, was chairing the meeting, and this was an extended
19 meeting of the Central Committee and that certain cadres from Kosovo were
20 invited who were not members of the Central Committee. I did attend that
21 session and I did participate in the discussion. Not as a member,
22 however, but as a guest.
23 Q. May this have been in July of 1988 or are you not able to help?
24 A. I'm sorry, but I cannot recall the month now or the date.
25 Q. I'll not trouble you with that, but you can confirm, again just
1 for purposes of chronology, that in 1988, and indeed in the October of
2 1988, there was trouble in Vojvodina, the other of the two semi-autonomous
3 provinces; correct?
4 A. You said there was trouble. I don't know if it was interpreted
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I never heard this expression.
8 Mr. Nice is speaking English, so the transcript must be correct. He says
9 "semi-autonomous." I don't understand this. What does "semi-autonomous"
10 mean? [In English] "Semi-autonomous provinces."
11 MR. NICE: I'm not here to answer questions.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does the witness have difficulty with that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't speak English. I speak
14 Albanian. I don't know what it says here.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: "Semi-autonomous." Do you have an understanding
16 of that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do understand the expression, but
18 it doesn't correspond to the facts. Vojvodina was an autonomous province
19 within Serbia and a constituent member of the federation.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Mr. Nice.
21 MR. NICE:
22 Q. The trouble in Vojvodina by the autumn of 1988 when the accused
23 was now president of the Presidency of Serbia, people went from Kosovo --
24 Communist Party members went from Kosovo as demonstrators in Vojvodina,
25 and in due course the Vojvodina leadership was overthrown. What can you
1 help us with about that?
2 A. I lived and worked in Kosovo, not in Vojvodina. I can give you my
3 opinions, but I don't know how relevant they are.
4 Q. Is it right -- let's break it down. Is it right that Communist
5 Party members, and maybe others, went as demonstrators from Kosovo to
6 Vojvodina to demonstrate there? Just yes or no.
7 A. I can say neither yes nor no. I will say the following, however:
8 Citizens from Kosovo who had suffered the various injustices that we have
9 spoken about arrived in Belgrade on more than one occasion to visit
10 various organs in the federation. Citizens of Kosovo also went to
11 Vojvodina and Novi Sad. I remember seeing this on television. Which of
12 them were members of the League of Communists and which of them were not,
13 I don't know. We cannot speak of members of the League of Communists. We
14 can only speak of citizens of Kosovo who went to Vojvodina in order to set
15 out the problems they were facing and the difficulties they had.
16 I know about this from the media, from television, from the
17 newspapers, and that's what I can say. I don't know, however, how
18 relevant this is as testimony.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's for the Chamber to determine.
20 MR. NICE:
21 Q. And I'm sorry, I said president of the Presidency in 1988. He was
22 president of the Presidency in May of 1989. I'm grateful to Mr. Struggles
23 for correcting my note.
24 May I ask one question, if the Court is otherwise minded to take
25 the break, before the break?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I think we'll take the break now. You want
2 to ask one question? Okay.
3 MR. NICE: One question.
4 Q. You see, Mr. Jokanovic, I'd like your answer to this question, or
5 problem: If the need for reform of the constitution in Kosovo was so
6 heavily built on the separatist movement of the Kosovo Albanians and not
7 driven by some other purpose, what on earth was the reason for withdrawing
8 the level of autonomy that existed in Vojvodina? And that was effected by
9 the movement, amongst other things, I'm suggesting, that was effected by
10 the movement of demonstrators into Vojvodina. What was the purpose?
11 A. Your question and your manner of putting it and my understanding
12 of it confirms everything I said during my testimony yesterday:
13 Nationalism and separatist on Kosovo was only one of the issues that
14 facilitated this process; however, there were numerous reasons to reform
15 the constitution of Serbia. Whether the Republic of Serbia was able to
16 exercise the basic functions that it had under the constitution, functions
17 having to do with defence, with international relations, this had nothing
18 to do with the ethnic make-up. It had to do with the fact of whether
19 Serbia was or was not a republic.
20 As for nationalism and separatism, this speeded up the process and
21 was just an additional argument in favour of this. The same applies to
22 Vojvodina, where the predominant population was Serbian.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take a break now. Twenty minutes.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Nice.
2 MR. NICE:
3 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, we're coming now to 1989, and Vojvodina's
4 leadership having been changed, it's right, isn't it, that both at the end
5 of 1988 and the beginning of 1989 there were serious strikes at the Trepca
6 mine in Kosovo, including at the Stari Trg mine?
7 A. This question is specific, and the answer is yes, correct.
8 Q. And included in the concerns of the Albanian striking miners was
9 concern about proposed amendments to the constitutional position of
11 A. The miner's strike in Trepca occurred in January 1989. Their
12 principal demand was a political one. They wanted the replacement of
13 several prominent Albanian leaders; Ali Shukrija on the federal level,
14 Rrahman Morina, and Mr. Hasani. That was their basic demand. However,
15 there was also a degree of manipulation with the miners who were deluded
16 into believing that constitutional changes would deprive them of schooling
17 in their mother tongue, that they would be deprived of their equal rights
18 to use their own script and language, and the miners strike was
19 essentially a manipulation of the workers in order to achieve well-known
21 Q. The three men you referred to, Sinan Hasani, Rrahman Morina, and
22 Ali Shukrija, had been imposed in place of three other men Kaqusha
23 Jashari, Sinan Hasani, and Azem Vllasi. Those replacements were in order
24 to find people more favourable to this accused, weren't they? Vllasi and
25 the other two lost their jobs and were replaced by loyalists to the
1 accused; correct?
2 A. No. That is not true. No one can say that Ali Shukrija was a man
3 who was brought in as a yes-man. He was a man of integrity, decorated
4 with the award for veterans, who joined the national liberation struggle
5 in 1941. In any case, he was a man of complete integrity, and no one in
6 Serbia had enough power to simply replace one set of people with another.
7 Q. But I'm right, aren't I, that the three names I gave, Jashari,
8 Hasani and Vllasi, were the names of the post holders to whom jobs were
9 given to Morina, Hasani, and Shukrija. I'm right about that, aren't I?
10 A. Well, the places were not given to them. The competent Fora
11 elected them to those posts. The elected -- the competent organs of the
12 party elected them.
13 Q. Quite.
14 A. Nobody imposed them.
15 Q. The Communist Party forum elected them, and that brings us to what
16 actually happened on the 23rd of March of 1989, but we'll take our time to
17 get there so that we can make things clear.
18 First of all, it was on the 3rd of February - do you recall this?
19 - that the National Assembly of Serbia passed the amendments to the
20 constitution which would have given more control over Kosovo's security,
21 judiciary, finance, and so on. That actually happened on the 3rd of
23 A. On the 3rd of February, the Assembly of Serbia enacted the
24 amendments which were later proclaimed on the 28th, according to the
25 procedure which was then envisaged by the constitution of Serbia.
1 Q. Because, of course, at this stage and under the 1974 constitution,
2 Kosovo's consent was required in this non-central republic.
3 Help me with this: The proposals that Serbia made to bring it
4 into line with the other republics were different in one material respect,
5 weren't they? When the amendments were effected, Kosovo and Vojvodina
6 would still retain their voting seats on the Presidency of the federal
7 government, so that Serbia would have three votes, whereas all the other
8 republics would have one; correct?
9 A. Not correct.
10 Q. Explain, then, please.
11 A. I can explain. The position of the provinces within the
12 federation did not change at all. After the passing of amendments, the
13 Assembly of Kosovo elected Riza Sapundzija, a member of the Presidency, by
14 secret ballot. Thus it was not a Serbian vote in the Presidency of
15 Yugoslavia, it was a vote of a member of the Presidency from Kosovo within
16 the Presidency of Yugoslavia. His name was Riza Sapundzija. He was
17 elected on the 5th of May.
18 Q. I follow your point and we will see what happened to Sapundzija
19 later, but if you won't accept my first proposition, you'll accept this
20 perhaps: Coming from the Serbia inclusive of Vojvodina and Kosovo under
21 its amended constitution that Serbia pressed for, there would be three
22 people on the Presidency of the federal government, whereas for each other
23 of the republics there would only be one. That's true, isn't it?
24 A. No, that's not true. First of all, we're not talking about the
25 government here, we're talking about the Presidency of the SFRY. Second,
1 the Assemblies of Vojvodina and Kosovo elected their members of the
2 Presidency themselves. In the case of Kosovo, the elected members were
3 Albanians. I said Riza Sapundzija was elected after the passing of the
4 constitutional amendments. And the member from Vojvodina was elected by
5 the Assembly of Vojvodina. I cannot recall the name at the moment. It
6 could be Kostic.
7 Q. Very well. Jugoslav Kostic maybe?
8 A. Yes, you're right, Jugoslav Kostic.
9 Q. Now, next event is this: On the 20th of February - do you recall
10 this? - there was a further miners' strike. This may actually be the one
11 where there was pressure for the return of Vllasi but I make no criticism
12 of your ascribing that to the earlier strike. There was another strike on
13 the 20th of February, and some 1.300 Albanian miners went on hunger
15 A. In February -- I know there were strikes in January. I don't
16 know. It's possible there could have been some in February too.
17 As for the number of miners involved, I really don't know, but
18 they did go on strike. And I said earlier it was a sort of manipulation
19 of workers under the slogan, "Let us not give up on our cadres."
20 Q. Elsewhere in the former Yugoslavia, and in particular in Ljubljana
21 in Slovenia, there were rallies in support of the Kosovo miners with
22 Kucan, to be President Kucan, as he became, aligning Slovenian and Kosovar
23 interests and concerns; correct?
24 A. That is true to a large extent, but I can explain why.
25 Q. Maybe later. But meanwhile, as you explained yesterday, and I'm
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 opening but not to go through in detail, meetings of various kinds were
2 held, reflected in some of the documents - I don't know if you know about
3 this, Mr. Jokanovic, I hope you do - that were served in anticipation of
4 being used in your evidence by the accused. Various meetings were held of
5 Communist Party organs dealing with the upcoming proposal for amendment of
6 the constitution; correct? Various meetings.
7 A. I think there was a large number of meetings in Kosovo as well as
8 in Belgrade, both at the federal level and at the level of the Republic of
10 Q. And so that we can understand the way the communist system worked,
11 and you adverted to this yesterday yourself, decisions were made at a
12 local level, and people came to a meeting on the 23rd of March as
13 delegates, largely.
14 A. Is that a question?
15 Q. Yes. The people came with the decision as to how they should vote
16 already made.
17 A. Mr. Nice, I think you are insufficiently familiar with our very
18 complex constitutional system in which we lived. It was dominated by the
19 so-called delegate system, and that implies that before making his own
20 decision, a delegate has to consult and find out the opinion of the
21 constituency which elected him delegate in the first place. That is a
22 very complex system in which we lived, and it was an attempt --
23 Q. And I can try and find the part in your evidence yesterday. Am I
24 right that, for the most part --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, just let him finish. It was an
1 attempt --
2 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: You were saying it was an attempt, the delegate
4 system was an attempt to do something.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was an attempt to promote
6 socialist self-management, a unique system in the world. And it was
7 precisely at the time when it was perfected to a certain degree and when
8 it started to really function, Yugoslavia dissolved.
9 MR. NICE:
10 Q. Now, amongst the documents that we were provided by the accused in
11 anticipation of your producing them, but that wasn't possible, are such
12 things as, and I'm just going to read the titles, a Session of the
13 Coordinating Body of the Commission of the Assembly of the Socialist
14 Autonomous Province of Kosovo of the 20th of February, 1989. Another one
15 was the audio recording of the meeting of the Constitutional Commission of
16 the Assembly of the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo on the 13th of
17 January. Another was a tape recording of the Session of the
18 Constitutional Commission of the Assembly of the Autonomous Province of
19 Kosovo on the 5th of January. And the last one I can identify is a
20 transcript of an audio recording of the Expanded Session of the
21 Coordinating Body of the Constitutional Commission of the Assembly of the
22 Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo on the 4th of January.
23 Now, to the extent possible in the time, and limited by the
24 translations available, will you accept, Mr. Jokanovic, that the local
25 discussions held reflected in these documents do not refer at all, unless
1 I've missed it, to violence by Albanians and probably do not refer at all
2 to the issue of Albanian separatism, and they proceed entirely on lines of
3 being concerned with constitutional change focusing on such things as
4 education. Would you accept that?
5 A. Those meetings were of professional nature. There was a large
6 number of them which reflect the serious and meticulous work on the
7 wording of constitutional amendments. Every word, every comma was
8 debated, every formulation. And everyone was given the opportunity to
9 express their opinion so that all the views could be ultimately
11 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, I hope that I pointed the matter in which I have an
12 interest, but if I didn't, I'll repeat it. We will find or we're unlikely
13 to find in these records any reference to violence by Albanians or
14 Albanian separatism as the cause or justification for constitutional
15 change; correct?
16 A. When legal professionals with Ph.D.'s in constitutional law deal
17 with constitutional solutions, they do not discuss the political situation
18 on the ground. It is this document, the policy of the League of
19 Communists of Yugoslavia, that deals with the political situation. And if
20 you're interested in that part, that was in the purview of political
22 However, the constitutional commission consists of professionals
23 who concentrate on legal technical matters.
24 Q. I've asked the question and I'm going to move forward in time.
25 After the Ljubljana rallies in support of the Kosovo Albanians, there was
1 one of the rallies in Belgrade, I think to which you referred when you
2 said people went to Belgrade, and perhaps you can -- I just want you to
3 look at a short clip of this, please.
4 [Videotape played]
5 "NARRATOR: They gave Milosevic the power to use the Yugoslav army
6 in Kosovo.
7 "[No interpretation]
8 "NARRATOR: The crowd had waited all day for Milosevic to tell
9 them that Kosovo would be theirs again.
10 "[No interpretation]"
11 MR. NICE:
12 Q. Were you at that rally?
13 A. I did not attend this rally.
14 Q. Did you see it on television?
15 A. Of course I saw that on television, and I read the press coverage.
16 Q. This was whipping up Serb nationalism at a very great level,
17 wasn't it?
18 A. No. Mr. Milosevic says that the Serbian leadership will work for
19 just and fair aims. I hope this was correctly translated. And he says
20 there is no such force that will prevent the leadership of Kosovo to
21 punish those who are working against the people, against the state. I
22 heard it even before, so I cannot agree with your statement.
23 Q. You will recollect that a few days after this, on the 27th of
24 February, the accused persuaded the federal government to initiate
25 emergency measures; correct?
1 A. You ascribe great power to Mr. Milosevic, or the accused, as you
2 call him. Unfortunately, he did not have such power. You seem to imply
3 that he was able to dictate the federal government, the republican
4 government, the people, and everybody. He couldn't even dictate anything
5 to me. And I was in public and political life before he ever appeared.
6 When Milosevic told me something and I didn't agree, I didn't obey him.
7 And if he had suggested something to me that I couldn't go along with, I
8 would not have obeyed. So I think you are ascribing to him a sort of
9 power that he didn't have.
10 Q. Emergency powers were imposed, and the consequence of that for
11 Kosovo was the following: Troops arrived, and indeed we just saw, at the
12 beginning, the tanks rolling in. A curfew was imposed and strikes were
13 prohibited, all at the end of the February of 1989; correct?
14 A. Emergency measures were introduced by the Presidency or the
15 federal government, I can't remember any more. And pursuant to that,
16 decisions were made later on to restrict movement in Kosovo and forbid
17 assembly in public places.
18 President -- that is Prime Minister Nazmi Mustafa, Official
19 Gazette of March 1989 -- I don't know whether that's precisely the issue.
20 There is a set of them here. It is true that emergency measures were
22 Q. On the 2nd of March, Vllasi, who had opposed the accused when he
23 went for Stambolic's job and got it, and who had been cried out for by the
24 Serb crowd in Belgrade, he was arrested, detained for five months without
25 charge, and then tried for some alleged offence; correct?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 A. Azem Vllasi was tried in Kosovska Mitrovica, and he was acquitted
2 by the court.
3 Q. At the time we are concerned with, the changes to the
4 constitution, Vllasi was arrested, off the streets and in prison.
5 A. I can only suppose. I don't know. But Vllasi was qualified as
6 the organiser and manipulator of the strikes and demonstrations in Kosovo
7 because he had lost his leading position in Kosovo and Metohija. However,
8 later, at trial, it was not possible to prove it, and according to our
9 law, he could not be convicted for political activity.
10 Q. Let's now turn to the meeting of the 23rd of March of which we saw
11 a clip yesterday and for which we were provided at one stage, although not
12 to look at in detail, with this exhibit, Exhibit 254.
13 The document that came with -- in incomplete form, did you bring
14 this document or was this already made available to you by the accused
15 when you came here to The Hague, Mr. Jokanovic?
16 A. Which document? Can you just give me the title?
17 Q. Certainly. Did you bring this one with you or was it already here
18 when you --
19 A. I brought with me the original, and this was probably submitted to
20 Mr. Milosevic earlier. What I have with me is the original.
21 JUDGE KWON: What's the number again, Mr. Nice?
22 MR. NICE: It's 254.
23 JUDGE KWON: 254 is tape recording of the joint sessions of all
24 three Chambers?
25 MR. NICE: Yes, that's what it's headed.
1 JUDGE KWON: It's in English.
2 MR. NICE: It's in English and in Serbian.
3 JUDGE KWON: And in Serbian too.
4 MR. NICE: You'll remember yesterday I explored the format of the
5 document, revealing how there were missing pages, and the pages at the
6 end, although they met some of the deficit they didn't actually complete
7 the document.
8 Q. If you could be good enough, please, to go, in the English to page
9 35 but in your version can you just take that document in front of you.
10 If you would be good enough to go to page 70 -- can you give it -- give it
11 to me and I'll find it. 74, I think.
12 A. 74.
13 Q. At the top. And if you come back one page before 74, you will see
14 you come to page 71 in the version we have. Is that 71 in your version?
15 A. Yes. I have 71.
16 Q. So that pages 72 and 73 are missing, and they are the body of the
17 speech of Avdi Trnkoli.
18 MR. NICE: I'm going to take the Chamber to one, and I suspect
19 only one more, of the open-source documents that I handed in this morning,
20 because it may fill in the deficit that this document leaves. And if
21 you'd be good enough, please, in this bundle of papers to go to the top
22 right-hand corner 5634. If the usher would be good enough to put that on
23 the overhead projector.
24 MR. NICE: Does the Court have this on the screen? Mine is not
25 working, I'm afraid. Never mind. We can do it with documents until it
1 becomes live again.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's there now.
3 MR. NICE: Thank you.
4 Q. What we're looking at is a BBC summary of world broadcasts for the
5 28th of March, 1989, and if the Chamber would, and the usher would be good
6 enough to go along two pages to K0485636 at the top. We see -- and there
7 are three paragraphs that I'm going to read on the BBC summary of this
8 meeting. I'll read them slowly, Mr. Jokanovic, because they say something
9 about what Ms. Trnkoli said. It starts at the top of the page.
10 "Some Albanian delegates today continued openly to express
11 reservations regarding the amendments to the Serbian Constitution. For
12 instance, a number of delegates called for the verification" - and I don't
13 understand what follows - "of some amendments. Amendment 47 which
14 regulates the changes to the Serbian Constitution was most referred to.
15 Some delegates claimed that this amendment had not been submitted for
16 public discussion and warned that for the time being it cannot be voted
17 for or against.
18 "Delegate Melihate Trnkoli became involved in a detailed
19 'examination' of the position of Serbia and said that Serbia was a
20 republic with a specific position which in her opinion means a state of a
21 special type because of the two provinces within it. For Melihate Trnkoli
22 this is Serbia's privilege and she therefore does not understand the
23 equation of the position of this republic with other socialist republics
24 in Yugoslavia. This would mean, according to her, the abolition of the
25 autonomy of the provinces ...
1 "Similar 'arguments' against amendment 47 were voiced by delegate
2 Uka Riza. In his words, the framework for the changes to the Serbian
3 Constitution were not adhered to. He therefore suggested that no consent
4 be given to amendments 29 and 47 which were claimed not to have been
5 submitted for public discussion ..."
6 Just for completeness but -- not for completeness, but if we just
7 go to the bottom of the page, we can see how it's summarised, where it
9 "The delegates of all the three Chambers of the Kosovo Assembly
10 gave the green light to the constitutional changes in the republic and
11 province after an open vote. Consent was given by a majority vote to the
12 inclusion of amendments nine to 49 in the Serbian Constitution. Only 10
13 delegates were firmly against and two abstained. This solemn act, as it
14 was described by many, ended by a long standing ovation. Assembly
15 President Vukasin Jokanovic stressed in his brief address to the delegates
16 that this historic day would be the beginning of a happier -- a better and
17 happier future for everyone in the province."
18 So do you recall the opposition raised by at least one but it may
19 be more delegates; Ms. Trnkoli?
20 A. I do remember. It is true that Delegate Trnkoli, a young girl,
21 had a very long speech, longer than my introductory speech, whereas the
22 other Trnkoli mentioned here is her uncle. And this other delegate, Riza,
23 they expressed their opinion, gave their comments, objections. During
24 that session they were able to say whatever they wished to say. We had a
25 democratic atmosphere in the Assembly. Their objection was that this
1 amendment 47 was not publicly discussed enough, and the issue is what is
2 the purpose of public discussion? The purpose is for the draft to be sent
3 to all citizens, all workers, all places where people can express
4 suggestions, proposals, and so on. Suggestions were expressed in
5 Vojvodina, Serbia, and Kosovo.
6 In Kosovo, we had some unacceptable proposals and in Serbia itself
7 there were such proposals. We in Kosovo rejected such proposals that were
8 unacceptable, and out of this public discussion, amendment 47 was
9 formulated to restore back to Serbia the constitutional powers that each
10 republic had. This is a sovereign right of each republic, except that --
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... we are going to look at
12 amendment 47, and I have it here for you in B/C/S and for us in English, I
13 think, but I want to stick with the process whereby this vote was
15 You've already confirmed, I think, that for the most part, people
16 came to the meeting with the way to vote already decided; correct?
17 A. Their constituencies had decided, all municipalities, a total of
18 22 municipalities, in all organs, both at the level of the province and at
19 other levels. They had a discussion, and then they took a position that
20 their delegates were to follow.
21 Q. And under the complicated or complex communist system in
22 operation, it would be extraordinary for a meeting of this kind not to
23 vote in the way it eventually voted; correct?
24 A. I don't know what you have in mind.
25 Q. I'm suggesting to you that after this process of discussion, and
1 it goes over for several years, with delegates reaching a decision under
2 the Communist Party system, it would be extremely unusual, it may even be
3 unique for them to come to a meeting like this and vote other than in the
4 way proposed. These amendments were bound to be passed. Is that right?
5 A. Had to. I don't think so. This was a result of the entire effort
6 carried out in the society. Nobody was forced into voting this way or
7 that way. This was a result of three years of work. And when something
8 has been harmonised and formulated at a certain level, and delegates were
9 not free agents who could act as they pleased, however, they were not
10 banned from expressing their opinion.
11 Delegate Trnkoli did express her opinion, and in this document you
12 will find what other people stated from her municipality, saying that that
13 was her personal opinion, that she wasn't right, and so on.
14 Q. Because we have a body here, 70 per cent Albanian but 100 per cent
15 communist; correct?
16 A. I'm not sure about it. I don't think that is correct, because
17 some delegates came from the League of Communists, some delegates came
18 from the Socialist Alliance, and then the third group came from the
19 unions. So there could have been delegates who were not members of the
20 League of Communists. However, those who had been delegated by the League
21 of Communists automatically were members of the party. We didn't keep
22 records as to who was a member and who wasn't.
23 Q. As delegates, full-time bureaucrats? The delegates there,
24 full-time bureaucrats?
25 A. No. These were people from the ground and the Assembly had
1 delegates representing social structures in the society and other
2 structures, meaning that all nationalities were represented, citizens were
3 represented, farmers were represented. None of these people were
4 bureaucrats, none of them were paid from the budget by the Assembly,
5 except those who were in leading positions in the Assembly such as myself
6 and several other people. Delegates were paid per diem when attending
8 Q. And Assembly members, before this vote, had been called in by
9 government officials and by political representatives - do you remember
10 this? - and instructed how to vote?
11 A. I don't remember that they were called in by government officials.
12 I don't believe that government officials called anybody in. The
13 delegates represented the municipalities who had delegated them. And at
14 that level, in their constituency, they discussed various proposals, they
15 harmonised the opinions. There were representatives of the unions, of the
16 League of Communists, Social Alliance, and so on.
17 The government, which at the time was called the Executive
18 Council, was not authorised to call anybody in, unless some of them had
19 private conversations with some delegates, but I'm just assuming this.
20 Q. In the hall on the day, there were members of the DB, the secret
21 police, present. What were they doing there?
22 A. The Assembly had its own internal security personnel, just like
23 any other parliament would in the world. No members of the state security
24 or any other similar persons were present. I don't know who from the
25 state security was present there. I didn't notice any such presence as
1 president of the Assembly. The state security at the time could not have
2 been anything else but the state security of Kosovo, who at the time was
3 headed by an Albanian. The minister of interior was an Albanian. The
4 chief of state security was Brosaj, and minister of interior was
5 Karakushi, therefore both Albanians.
6 I don't think that -- or, rather, I think that the Prosecution
7 believes those people who want to present the work of the Assembly in a
8 distorted way. You have obviously received information from those who
9 want to depict the situation in such a way as to favour them, and their
10 goals are quite clear. They're clearly expressed today. Their goal is an
11 independent, sovereign Kosovo.
12 Q. I'll return to the available evidence a little later, but it was
13 drawn to your attention yesterday that the indictment contains an
14 allegation that there wasn't the necessary quorum. The validity of this
15 vote that you told the Judges about yesterday has in fact been challenged
16 before, hasn't it?
17 A. I -- the interpretation I heard was "the validity of this vote."
18 You mean the voting?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. What do you have in mind? The voting? You mean the voting in the
22 Q. The validity of the decision in the Assembly has been challenged
23 before, hasn't it?
24 A. Challenged by individuals who had a clear separatist goal, a goal
25 to create Kosovo as a republic and to detach it from Serbia. Other than
1 that, it was not challenged in any other official forum. You can even see
2 in this document --
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... as to how it was that the
4 challenge could never be allowed to reach a conclusion. But my suggestion
5 to you, Mr. Jokanovic, is this: The meeting where voting was by a show of
6 hands included people within it people who weren't entitled to vote,
7 packed with other individuals. And that's an allegation that you've heard
8 before as well. Isn't it?
9 A. I could read or hear such allegations uttered by those same people
10 who had a goal that I just explained to you.
11 Q. And as you explained yesterday in answer to His Honour Judge Kwon,
12 it's perfectly possible to have a secret ballot, but you chose to go by a
13 show of hands in a packed hall.
14 A. First of all, it was not up to me to choose a voting procedure.
15 We had rules of procedure in the Assembly, and in principle voting was
16 public by raising hands. If delegates wanted the voting to be done in any
17 other way, then they expressed such proposal, it was discussed, and then
18 decided upon. There were no such proposals on that occasion. As I said,
19 it was both a working and a solemn session, and it was decided that it
20 would be -- the voting would be open, public. At the time it was not my
21 decision. It was in accordance with the rules of procedure of the
22 Assembly and in accordance with the constitution.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you did ask whether the meeting --
24 well, you put to the witness that the meeting was packed with people who
25 were not entitled to vote.
1 MR. NICE: Indeed.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jokanovic, could you answer that
3 specifically. You gave a general answer that that is the kind of
4 allegation that would have been made by separatists, but I think you
5 should answer that question specifically.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What Mr. Nice asked me is not true.
7 On the first page of the stenogram notes, you can see the names of the
8 people attending. Among them were representatives of highest organs of
9 the federation, republic. There were people from the Constitutional
10 Commission of Serbia, socio-political organisations of the province,
11 general secretary of the Federal Executive Council, and representatives of
12 municipalities. They attended there -- that as guests, and they were
13 present in the hall. I believe that there were 20 to 30 such guests
14 attending the session, and everyone -- everybody else and the remaining
15 people were the delegates. And you can see on the first page that I
16 greeted all of these people.
17 MR. NICE:
18 Q. Finally on the circumstances in which the vote was taken --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I have the first page but it doesn't seem to
20 have names of the people who attended. It gives a few names, but it
21 doesn't list 190 or 187 delegates.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I wish to inform the deputies that
23 the following comrades are also present here as guests," and then there's
24 a list of people attending as guests.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Jokanovic, the question should be this: Among
1 the people who were present there, were there people who were not actually
2 delegates pretending to be delegates and voted? Were there such persons?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no such persons. We had
4 guests, but guests did not vote precisely because they were guests. These
5 people attended this session ex officio. They were there as guests. As
6 for somebody impersonating deputies at the session, that's a fabrication.
7 Do you think that maybe some of those 180 journalists or photo
8 reporters present there would not have been able to tape and record those
9 impersonators or tape or record that tanks were present, police were
10 present? These are all attempts to distort the truth, to present this
11 event in a different light.
12 JUDGE KWON: And, Mr. Nice, before we get rid of this Exhibit
13 D254, I don't follow why you directed us to note there's some missing
14 pages 73 and 74 before which Avdi Trnkoli's speech appears, because
15 Melihate Trnkoli's speech appear on English page from 19 to 22.
16 MR. NICE: If I've been pursuing the wrong --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.
18 MR. NICE: That speech is there in full. You're quite right. I
19 was pursuing the wrong Trnkoli, yeah, the one that's missing. And
20 presumably what we find between 19 and 22 is reflected in the BBC's
21 summary. I'm grateful for that. It's the other Trnkoli who appears to be
22 missing. But I can simply also add this: That overnight it has been
23 possible to contact Melihate Trnkoli, and she is now available as a
24 witness, something to which we may return later.
25 Q. Because I don't know if you know this, Mr. Jokanovic, but I'm able
1 to put to you both on the basis of what one of the delegates from within
2 the Assembly was able to say and what President Rugova said in giving
3 evidence before this Court, that there were indeed either tanks, or if not
4 tanks, armoured personnel carriers surrounding the building as well as
5 secret police inside it, and that all of this created an enormously
6 oppressive pressure on delegates who had no choice but to vote these
7 amendments through. And that's the reality of it.
8 A. I'm not surprised that Mr. Rugova stated that and that he believes
9 that and keeps claiming that, because he has his own goals. He's the
10 chairman of the party that has been advocating for 15 years secession from
11 Serbia. So naturally he would use any chance given to him to score a
12 point in that regard.
13 I -- what surprises me is that you believe such information. I
14 graduated law in Skopje, and at law school we were always taught that the
15 Prosecutor is duty-bound to reveal the truth, to uncover the truth and not
16 just to listen to one side or to refer to Melihate Trnkoli, who spoke
17 longer than I did. And this other person is her uncle.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think Mr. Nice is aware of his duties as a
20 MR. NICE:
21 Q. Let's look, shall we, at critical amendment 47. And if I can just
22 place an English version on the overhead projector. This is already an
23 exhibit. And the tab version for -- it's Exhibit 526, tab 5.
24 And for want of time, I'm going to take you straight to the
25 central part of the amendment you're saying was voluntarily voted through
1 by the representatives of a formerly, so as to say the accused's
2 misunderstanding, autonomous region.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask you to see if I can also
6 be given amendment for 47 so that I can see it.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, you're entitled to have it. Yes.
8 MR. NICE:
9 Q. I'm interested, Mr. Jokanovic, and we'll wait and see if we can
10 find another version for the accused, with subsection 5 of amendment 47,
11 which is on the screen in English.
12 A. Do you want me to comment on it?
13 Q. The accused wants to have sight of it. Can we just find it,
15 Ms. Dicklich, as ever, able to make good in speedy time my lack of
16 proper preparation.
17 This amendment is the critical one, isn't it, because it says:
18 "Prior to deciding on a proposed act to change the Constitution of the
19 Socialist Republic of Serbia, the Assembly of the Socialist Republic of
20 Serbia shall send the proposed act to the Assemblies of the autonomous
21 provinces for their opinions and take a position on those opinions."
22 Is that right? That's the critical point, isn't it?
23 A. Item 5 of the amendment says that prior to deciding on a proposed
24 act to change the constitution shall send the proposed act to the
25 Assemblies of autonomous provinces in order for them to take their
1 opinion, and then it will take a position on these opinions. Yes. The
2 interpreters translated this correctly.
3 Q. Whereas formerly the position was that a change in the
4 constitution required not just an expression of an opinion but required a
5 vote by the Kosovo Assembly. It was able to make or break an application
6 or an effort to amend the constitution. Yes?
7 A. I don't know if you are familiar enough with this, Mr. Nice, but
8 that was in the constitution prior to these amendments, and after this
9 amendment was adopted, the procedure was amended and then constitution
10 could be amended in accordance with these provisions. And what you are
11 saying was a formulation in the previous constitution.
12 Q. So that by this amendment, you're explaining to us, that the
13 people of Kosovo voluntarily surrendered through your Assembly, or the
14 Assembly over which you presided, its ability to determine its own
15 constitution. It gave it completely to the Belgrade, Serbia government,
16 didn't it?
17 A. The procedure was changed. The mechanism was changed. The
18 procedure remained complex, the procedure to amend the constitution. It
19 is certain that all competent organs gave their consent to the amendments
20 from 9 to 49.
21 JUDGE KWON: So let me be clear on this. Mr. Jokanovic, what is
22 reflected in this amendment 47 is the very abolition of the veto power of
23 the Kosovo autonomous provinces. Am I right?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The change in the way constitution
25 was adopted. Yes, that's what they did. Instead of a veto, they adopted
1 a very complex procedure. But, yes, it could be said that veto was
2 eliminated. And the power to formulate and pass constitution was restored
3 back to Serbia. This is one of the main basic rights of every state,
4 because Kosovo was in the position to pass its own constitution on its own
5 without interference from Serbia.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 MR. NICE:
8 Q. And the history of events, quite rapidly now, is as follows: As
9 we've already heard, on the 28th of March, there was the ceremony presided
10 over by Borislav Jovic where he proclaimed that Serbia is equal now.
11 Remember that?
12 A. It was not a ceremony. It was a meeting of the Assembly of
13 Serbia, all three councils with guests and all the delegates, and the
14 delegates included a certain number of delegates from Kosovo, both
15 Albanians and Serbs, and also others. Representatives of Kosovo were,
16 therefore, represented. They were part of the Assembly. The session was
17 held in compliance with the constitution of Serbia, and after the
18 agreement of Vojvodina and Kosovo, the constitutional amendments were
19 promulgated. This, therefore, was not a ceremony, it was a meeting of the
21 Q. I'm sorry if I misdescribed it as a ceremony. I had in mind the
22 two rows of women in identical clothing standing behind Mr. Jovicic that
23 misled me. But if Borislav Jovic said that Serbia was equal now, it
24 wouldn't be true, would it, because -- and I go back to the point I made
25 before -- for the Presidency of the federal republic, there were now three
1 votes in the territory of the Republic of Serbia, whereas there was ever
2 only going to be one vote in the other republics. Correct or incorrect?
3 A. Incorrect.
4 Q. Had -- had --
5 A. There were two votes; one from Vojvodina, one from Kosovo.
6 Q. Let me ask the question another way. Why, in reforming the
7 constitution in the way that it was reformed, didn't Kosovo and Vojvodina
8 lose their right to have a person on the Presidency of the federal
9 republic? Can you explain that?
10 A. You mean the Presidency, not the government.
11 Q. Yes, the Presidency. Sorry if I used the wrong word.
12 A. Because in the amendment you're referring to, in item 2 - and you
13 can put it on this machine if you like - it says that a change in the
14 constitution of Serbia cannot change the rights and duties of the
15 autonomous provinces which are governed by the constitution of the Federal
16 Republic of Yugoslavia. This could not be changed by the amendments I am
17 testifying about today.
18 Q. These amendments took the best of both worlds, didn't they,
19 because they left the three votes, but by the 1990 constitution of the
20 Republic of Serbia, which of course was not subject to the veto of Kosovo,
21 Kosovo no longer had a constitution. It had -- it no longer had its own
22 Presidency. Is that correct?
23 A. I testified to the period of 1990 about events in which I
24 participated and which I know about. In 1990 a new constitution was
25 promulgated and our system was changed. A multi-party system was
1 introduced and the constitution of Serbia was changed, modeled on
2 constitutions of other countries in Europe. This then was a completely
3 new constitution and a completely new situation which arose because of the
4 overall changes taking place in Yugoslavia. The decision had already been
5 made in Slovenia and Croatia that they were leaving Yugoslavia.
6 Q. So that its autonomy, Kosovo and Vojvodina's autonomy was
7 completely withdrawn, yes, or abolished.
8 A. It was not withdrawn, it was not abolished. What was abolished,
9 unfortunately, was Yugoslavia. Without Yugoslavia, there was no longer
10 any province or republic left. What was abolished was Yugoslavia, in
12 Q. Let's go back, then, to where we were. The amendments having been
13 made in Kosovo and dealt with under the chairmanship or presidency of
14 Borislav Jovic, what I don't think you told us about yesterday was this:
15 In Kosovo there were massive demonstrations, weren't there? Kosovo that
16 you're saying voted through its representatives for this change, there
17 were massive demonstrations, with many people killed; correct?
18 A. There were demonstrations in Kosovo in March.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you refer to documents, may I,
20 Your Honours, also refer to a document and read out something?
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just tell us what it is that you're reading from.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are documents of the League of
23 Communists of Kosovo evaluating and assessing these demonstrations.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: And the date?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date --
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, this is an exhibit
2 that was tendered yesterday. This is the set of documents I quoted from.
3 I quoted the federal president of the Presidency. This is part of the
4 same set of documents. The witness is referring to the conclusions.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for the explanation. But what is that
6 exhibit? What number is that?
7 MR. NICE: 253, marked for identification.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I read now?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Address, introductory address or
11 keynote speech, page 67. "The events in March are the most serious so far
12 because the Albanian nationalists and separatists came out into the open
13 with the aim of destabilising Yugoslavia, threatening its territorial
14 integrity, constitutional order. There has been not an inter-ethnic
15 clash, but an armed clash between Albanian nationalists and separatists
16 with illegal organs of the Yugoslav state. This is the most aggressive
17 attempt so far by the separatist forces to cause large-scale riots and
19 And then another passage: "When the Assembly of Kosovo by an
20 overwhelming majority approved the enactment of the new constitution of
21 Serbia, the Albanian nationalists saw that they were losing ground for
22 their nationalist activities. That's why they resorted to arms, not
23 reconciling themselves to the fact that this Kosovo leadership is decisive
24 in its decisiveness and in openly opposing the counter-revolutionary
25 forces and ensuring peace and co-existence for all the people inhabiting
1 the province." This was said by the Albanian Yasir Maj [phoen]. And he
2 also speaks of those who were killed. He says: "In these demonstrations,
3 two policemen were killed and --"
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apology: 112 policemen were
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]"-- and two members of organs of
7 public security were killed. There is much disinformation going around
8 these days with a view to sowing panic and a lack of confidence in the
9 measures taken by the Presidency of the SFRY. It should be said on this
10 occasion that in the massive counter-revolutionary demonstrations 21
11 demonstrators were killed and 92 persons were wounded."
12 MR. NICE:
13 Q. I don't have the document you're reading from.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apology: Two were killed and 112
15 were injured.
16 MR. NICE:
17 Q. Going back to the point I was making, I think the answer is simply
18 yes. After this amendment to the constitution by which in a very easy
19 process the entire autonomy of Kosovo was abolished, many people were
20 killed and injured, including two policemen; correct?
21 A. I read this out.
22 Q. Let me just move on, then.
23 A. Twenty-one demonstrators were killed, two policemen were killed,
24 112 policemen were injured, and 92 persons were wounded. These are the
25 official data. You cannot say a large number of people and you cannot say
1 that the province was abolished. I do not agree with these statements.
2 Q. I'm going to --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not the province. The autonomy of the province
4 was abolished.
5 MR. NICE: We will deal with the particular terms of the
6 constitutions if we have an expert on one side or the other, or preferably
7 both, in due course, Your Honours, but through this witness I'm just going
8 to confirm the following:
9 Q. As early as June of 1990, under the new regime, special
10 circumstances were found or decided upon which enabled action to be taken
11 in respect of the Electrokosovo enterprise, the local television, the
12 newspaper, and the mines, all to bring them under greater control;
14 A. When?
15 Q. June 1990.
16 A. June 1990 I was working in Belgrade then, and I'm not familiar
17 with the details.
18 Q. Well, as the person who presided over the change of the
19 constitution so far as Kosovo's consent was required, I come back to what
20 I said earlier about that vote having been challenged. It was taken to
21 the Constitutional Court of Kosovo on the initiative of academician
22 Gazmend Zajmi, and a lawyer, Bajram Kelmendi. Do you remember that? On
23 the 27th of June --
24 A. What year?
25 Q. 27th of June --
1 A. When?
2 Q. -- 1990.
3 A. I'm not at all surprised. This was after the dissolution of the
4 Assembly of Kosovo and after all these demonstrations and this attempt at
5 armed rebellion. This was a situation when Yugoslavia had already fallen
6 apart and when these separatist forces were able to do whatever they
7 wished outside the proper institutions and declare whatever they wanted.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jokanovic, that question admits of a very
9 short answer.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. And you see, what actually happened, so that we can see the
12 consequences for the rule of law in Kosovo, what actually happened was
13 that there was something called a project decision in translation, and I
14 don't know what that translates as.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is quite clear to me, because of
18 the interpretation, and I'm not objecting to what the interpreter said but
19 the interpretation was such that I feel the witness did not understand the
20 question. The question was whether he knew that the decision of the
21 Kosovo Assembly was challenged before the Constitutional Court. It seems
22 to me that Mr. Nice mentioned the Constitutional Court either of Kosovo or
23 Yugoslavia or Serbia, but that's how I understood the question, that a
24 certain Kelmendi instituted proceedings before the Constitutional Court.
25 That was the question. And the witness did not answer because he didn't
1 understand the question.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said what year and so on, but I
3 don't know about this, because if it was in the second half of 1990, I
4 wouldn't know about it because I wasn't on Kosovo then. But by that time
5 the Assembly of Kosovo had been dissolved because of the reasons I
6 mentioned yesterday.
7 MR. NICE:
8 Q. I'll conclude my questioning on this point, just this: By
9 something that's described in translation so I can't better identify it as
10 a project decision of the court, numbered 54 of 1990, the decision, that
11 is the decision that was made by the vote of hands that you've described,
12 was annulled. That decision was never signed because the Constitutional
13 Court itself was abolished by the new Serbian constitution. So the
14 question of the validity of that vote, Mr. Jokanovic, never reached the
15 court that should have decided on it. Is that true?
16 A. That is not true, because there is a Constitutional Court of
17 Serbia, and there is also a Constitutional Court of Yugoslavia.
18 Q. My last question on this topic, and I don't want to trespass too
19 much into the third session, but I still haven't seen the translation of
20 the English of the version of the accused -- of what the accused said in
21 the document that was not translated yesterday, and I have a few other
22 questions to ask, but my last question on this topic is this: The very
23 first witness in this Court said of -- when asked in cross-examination,
24 said of this vote, "Some were braver and said, irrespective of violence, I
25 don't agree with the changes," being the changes to the constitution.
1 He'd already explained that the vote came about by the use of force,
2 implied and express, on those who voted for it.
3 Mr. Bakalli was right, wasn't he? The vote was brought about by
4 force but a limited number of people had the courage to say that they
5 didn't agree with the changes.
6 A. This is not correct. And as for the feelings of individuals, I
7 don't want to go into that.
8 Q. Your career has rather matched and went with that of the accused,
9 didn't it?
10 A. No. My career began before that of the person you call the
11 accused. I was a functionary as early as 1970.
12 Q. Let's remind ourselves - I'm grateful for that - that between
13 1986 and 1988 you were a member of the Presidency of Kosovo. March 1989,
14 chairman of the Kosovo Assembly. June 1990, vice-president of the Serbian
15 Assembly. 1990 to 1994, vice-president of the Serbian Assembly. 1996 to
16 -- I beg your pardon, 1994 to 1997, ministry -- minister of the interior
17 for the FRY. 1997 to 2000, state prosecutor.
18 Is that a rough summary of your curriculum?
19 A. Yes, but you didn't say what I had done before 1988 -- or 1986.
20 Are you trying to prove that my career was parallel to the career of
21 Slobodan Milosevic? That is absolutely not true.
22 I was elected president of the Assembly of Kosovo and member of
23 the Presidency of Kosovo before I even knew Slobodan Milosevic. And had
24 he wanted to - let me finish, by Their Honours' leave - even had Slobodan
25 Milosevic wanted to influence this election, he could not have done so
1 because the organs on Kosovo were then in charge of the staffing policy.
2 Q. Just to complete the picture for my purposes, you held the
3 position of chairman of RTS, the radio or television station between 1996
4 and the year 2000 so that you doubled up that job in the media with being
5 both the minister of the interior and also the state prosecutor for a
7 Help us, please, is that what normally happens in countries of
8 either the former Yugoslavia or the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that
9 people with such important state functions can also be chairman of the
10 board of a television company?
11 A. This is not what normally happens. It was due to circumstances
12 because, as a federal deputy, I was on the board, and my task in the
13 federal government was quite different. It had to do with a certain
14 legislation because the federal Ministry of the Interior was then
15 attempting to constitute itself because the republics of Serbia and
16 Montenegro had taken over security affairs and because I had experience in
17 constitutional and legislative matters, I was assisting with certain
18 legislation on citizenship, on passports, on foreign residents, and so on
19 and so forth. And that's how it happened that I held all these posts at
20 the same time. However, this is not usual. It's not what normally
22 At that point in time in the Rump Yugoslavia, my position was not
23 one of power, it was simply something that had to do with the remnants of
24 the posts at the level of Yugoslavia but which were by then very limited.
25 However, I do agree with you that this is not what normally
2 Q. Is it a way of exercising control over the press and the media?
3 A. No, by no means. The federal Ministry of the Interior did not
4 have either a public or a state security. It only had its administration,
5 and it looked after the security of government buildings and embassies.
6 There were no employees doing anything else, and no employees dealing with
7 what you are trying to say, coercion, and so on, threats. So that the
8 federal MUP could not have exercised any kind of control over the media at
9 that point in time.
10 MR. NICE: Mr. Nice, we have passed the time for the break.
11 We'll take a break now for twenty minutes.
12 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Nice.
15 MR. NICE: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll come, at the end of the
16 questions I'm asking, to how to deal with the material I've just received.
17 I'll ask a few more questions of this witness before then.
18 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, we dealt just before the break with the impotence
19 of the federal MUP, and I want to turn back now to something else.
20 MR. NICE: And for this I would ask the Chamber to look at one
21 more part of the open-source material that we've been considering. It
22 doesn't contain a quotation from the witness. It's on page 5647, and it's
23 dated the 23rd of March of 1991, and it comes from the BBC.
24 Mr. Jokanovic, I asked you some questions earlier on, and you
25 responded by inquiring whether I was suggesting that in some way your
1 career and its success was linked to the accused. At an earlier stage,
2 you'll remember I'd said something about Sapundzija and how we'd have to
3 see what happened to him.
4 The English version, which I will read slowly, of this 23rd of
5 March 1991 report says as follows: "The Serbian parliament on Thursday
6 [21st of March] nominated deputy Sejdo Bajramovic candidate for the
7 Yugoslav Presidency member from Serbia's province of Kosovo. Bajramovic,
8 an ethnic Albanian from Kosovo, should replace Riza Sapundziju, whom the
9 Serbian parliament relieved of office on Monday [18th March]. In
10 explaining the replacement proposal, Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic
11 said that Sapundziju 'has participated for some time in work at the
12 Presidency of Yugoslavia to the detriment of Serbia and Kosovo-Metohija,
13 and has openly advocated the separatist positions.' Bajramovic's
14 candidacy is subject to approval by the Yugoslav parliament. Until then,
15 vice-president of the Serbian parliament, Vukasin Jokanovic, will ex
16 officio deputise for Sapundziju in the state Presidency."
17 Two things then from this extract. One, separatist talk, even in
18 1991 was simply unacceptable to the accused, wasn't it?
19 A. I did not understand your question, really.
20 Q. Separatist talk, talking about advocating any form of separation
21 for Kosovo, was unacceptable to the accused. That's why he got rid of
23 A. Mr. Milosevic, as well as a large number of people, citizens and
24 politicians both in Kosovo and outside were opposed to separatism. Riza
25 Sapundzija, as far as I can remember, together with a member from the
1 Presidency from Montenegro, Bucin, resigned. Sejdo Bajramovic, also an
2 Albanian from Kosovo, was nominated to occupy that post. In the meantime,
3 before the procedure for his election was completed, I attended, I think,
4 two sessions of the SFRY Presidency, standing in for him, because I was
5 from Kosovo and I was vice-president of the Assembly of Serbia. I was,
6 however, not a member of the Presidency. I just stood in for him pending
7 the completion of the election procedure. And Riza Sapundzija resigned.
8 Nenad Bucin, too, resigned, from Montenegro.
9 Q. We can see what -- you've heard what and we can see what was said
10 by the accused according to the newspaper article.
11 At this time, before further disintegration of the former
12 Yugoslavia, it was important for the accused, wasn't it, that he should
13 have his four guaranteed Serb votes on the Presidency; one for Serbia, one
14 for Vojvodina, one for Kosovo, and one for Montenegro, so that he always
15 had four of the total number of votes in the Presidency. That's the truth
16 of it, isn't it?
17 A. That is not true. Sejdo Bajramovic was from Kosovo. Kostic was
18 from Vojvodina. They voted on the basis of the opinions and positions
19 taken in the Assemblies of Kosovo and Vojvodina respectively, at least as
20 long as the Assembly of Kosovo existed.
21 I do not agree with your attempts to ascribe to Mr. Milosevic the
22 desire to control the Presidency. At the time, he was president of the
23 Republic of Serbia, whereas the member of the Presidency was Borisav
25 Q. Did you ever vote against anything the accused wanted in any of
1 the positions you held?
2 A. I voted only in favour of things I believed in. I never voted
3 against my conscience. There must have been events and issues on which I
4 disagreed with a lot of people, including Mr. Milosevic, and it can't be
5 that I always voted along with him. I have never been an executor of
6 anybody's orders as you are trying to paint me here in order to discredit
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jokanovic, earlier in response to the same
9 line of questioning from Mr. Nice, you said Mr. Nice was attributing too
10 much power to Mr. Milosevic, and as an illustration, you said that if -- I
11 believe you said that whenever Mr. Milosevic asked you to do anything that
12 you did not want to do, then you would not do it. Do you remember saying
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that, and I still believe
15 that. That's my opinion. I believe that I would have never followed
16 anybody's orders, including Mr. Milosevic's, if they did not coincide with
17 my beliefs.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Following on that, I was going to ask if you
19 could give us one or two examples of occasions when Mr. Milosevic would
20 have asked you to do something that you did not want to do and did not do
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I will recall, and
23 Mr. Milosevic can probably recall it, too, that I did not agree with many
24 staffing proposals in Kosovo. I was against the election of many leaders
25 in Kosovo who were elected eventually to important positions in Kosovo. I
1 don't know if you want me to name these positions. And in my
2 conversations with Mr. Milosevic, I said openly I didn't agree with these
3 nominations. I can give you the names of the people, but I don't know if
4 that is pertinent.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not necessary. That's not necessary.
6 JUDGE KWON: But if you could tell me why Mr. Milosevic gave you
7 the names to be -- to be the candidate for that elections. What was his
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean elections to the
10 Presidency. Oh, you mean elections in Kosovo. Sorry. I understand now.
11 Milosevic did not chart and pursue the staffing policy alone. He
12 was one of the people who attended meetings which decided on staffing in
13 Kosovo. I also attended such meetings, and I had a separate, dissenting
14 opinion. I didn't always agree that the nominated candidates were suited
15 to the positions, because I believed they were not capable of performing
16 that job properly.
17 I did not agree with many staffing solutions in Kosovo and
18 Metohija because I worked and lived there, and I was very familiar with
19 the situation.
20 JUDGE KWON: Why did -- what position did Mr. Milosevic attend the
21 meeting which discussed the staffing things while he was the President of
22 Serbia? Was it discussed in Serbia?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The meetings that I referred to he
24 attended in his capacity as president of the Socialist Party of Serbia,
25 because the candidates in question were members of the Socialist Party,
1 and those meetings included the leadership of the Socialist Party. I also
2 didn't agree with some other proposals put forward by others, not only
3 Slobodan Milosevic. The meetings sometimes discussed nominations of the
4 Socialist Party candidates to the parliament, and on those occasions, I
5 didn't always agree with him. I hope Mr. Milosevic also remembers that.
6 JUDGE KWON: In that capacity, did Mr. Milosevic not have sort of
7 influence on the federal Presidency, as the president of the Socialist
8 Party of Serbia?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He did not have direct influence as
10 President of Serbia, because Serbia had its own representative in the
11 Presidency. It was Borisav Jovic. And it's probable that in discussing
12 with Borisav Jovic while harmonising positions he did have certain
13 influence. But also there were sessions of the Presidency --
14 JUDGE KWON: I'm referring to the position that Mr. Milosevic had
15 taken as president of the Socialist Party of Serbia, not as the president
16 of Serbia.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: So in that capacity you agree that he has a kind of
19 indirect influence on the members of that party?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As every president of every party,
21 he presided over sessions and had influence over the members. He
22 propounded his positions and exercised general influence on the work of
23 the party, including the proposals that the Socialist Party formulated and
24 submitted to the competent authorities. However, he was not the only
25 decision-making factor. There were also proposals coming from grassroot
1 level and other fora.
2 Please, I don't believe that this magic wand was held by
3 Slobodan Milosevic, and I don't agree that he appointed, replaced,
4 decided. He had no such power. It's true he had authority. He was held
5 in great esteem, and he propounded positions that were supported by many.
6 However, there were also positions that not everybody agreed with.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic.
8 MR. NICE:
9 Q. You said yesterday, right at the end of your evidence, that your
10 friend or neighbour, Bane Petrovic, protected Albanians from
11 paramilitaries. Which paramilitaries were operating in Kosovo?
12 A. After the wars in Bosnia and Croatia, those so-called dogs of war
13 appeared in Kosovo as well, with their criminal intentions to loot, to
14 wreak havoc.
15 Q. What were their names?
16 A. Some sort of volunteers. Volunteers who got hold of weapons and
17 came to Kosovo holding themselves out as fighters in the general chaos
18 that reigned.
19 Q. Can you not give us a name or any name for these paramilitaries
20 who were working in or fighting or doing whatever they were doing in
21 Kosovo? There were various bands we've heard of. Could you give us the
22 names of the ones that were in Kosovo?
23 A. All sorts of gangs whose names I don't know. Nobody knew their
24 names, but there were gangs of two or three who were only interested in
25 causing evil --
1 Q. Let's go back --
2 A. -- to the people of Kosovo, looting --
3 Q. -- to the early part of the history of paramilitaries. To remind
4 the Court, you held Serb positions, vice-president of the Assembly and so
5 on, between 1990 and 1994. The Red Berets were established on the 4th of
6 May of 1991. Who were they paid -- you were in the Assembly of Serbia at
7 this stage. Who paid for the Red Berets and how?
8 A. That's something I don't know.
9 Q. Well, the Assemblies both of Serbia and the Assembly of the FRY,
10 are those bodies that have a say in the budget?
11 A. It's not that they had a say. They were the ones who passed the
12 budget as proposed by the government, the same as in every state.
13 Q. If the government, whether the government of Serbia or of the FRY,
14 was spending money on paramilitaries, it would be appropriate for the
15 Assembly to be properly informed, wouldn't it?
16 A. It would have been appropriate if some funds were spent in a wrong
17 way outside of the budget for somebody to raise the issue at the Assembly
18 or in some other competent body. While I was in the Assembly of Serbia,
19 nobody ever raised the issue of the existence of financing of any
20 paramilitary groups, including the Red Berets. I am not aware of that,
21 and I am absolutely certain that the budget had certain items concerning
22 the administration, the government, and the MUP, and I don't think that
23 could have ever been part of the budget.
24 Q. Before we move on from that, if it emerges -- this is a
25 hypothetical question, so the accused understands what I'm saying. If it
1 emerges that paramilitaries were commissioned by and paid for by Serbia,
2 you in your position as vice-president of the Assembly should have been
3 informed; correct? It's a pretty important thing, to be paying for
4 paramilitaries, isn't it? You should have been informed.
5 A. I did not have to be informed. I wasn't, in fact, informed, and I
6 didn't have to know anything about it. I was one of four vice-presidents
7 of the Assembly.
8 Q. Let's pursue it a little more. You're a senior member of the
9 Assembly. You get a budget to review. Did you review it? Did you read
10 it and check what you were authorising expenditure for? Because there are
11 two possibilities. Either you knew about it and you're not telling us, or
12 either at this stage or at the later stage, we'll look at the FRY, the
13 government was keeping this expenditure from the Assembly, and I just want
14 you to help us with which one it is.
15 A. I, as a deputy to the parliament of Serbia, know nothing about the
16 financing of the Red Berets. Anything that I might say would be totally
17 ungrounded in any knowledge or information.
18 Q. You know of the existence of the Supreme Defence Council which
19 operated as the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, yes?
20 A. In the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or --
21 Q. Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
22 A. There existed the Council for the National Defence of the SFRY;
24 Q. Yes. Various titles will do, but that's one of them.
25 Now, that body - and we've got all the documents, you see -
1 created a system for paying for those fighting in the SVK and in the VRS,
2 the Serbs fighting in Croatia and Serbia. It was under the 30th and 40th
3 Personnel Centres which I must suggest to you was a fictional device for
4 sorting out the money. Were you as a senior Assemblyman, Assembly member,
5 informed of the existence of the 30th and 40th Personnel Centre and of how
6 this money was being used to pay for those fighting in Croatia and Serbia
7 -- Croatia and Bosnia? Were you, or was that kept from you?
8 A. It's not that it was kept from me, but it's neither the case that
9 I know anything about it. As far as what the exact procedure was, I see
10 that you have some information and you'll probably have the opportunity to
11 question some other witness about it. I know nothing.
12 Q. I --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope that it's clear from
16 everything that Mr. Jokanovic has said here that he had nothing to do with
17 the army, and I think it's a pure waste of time to ask him this. And by
18 the way, Mr. Nice has gone considerably beyond his time. There is no
19 point in asking this witness about the army with which he never had any
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness can answer.
22 MR. NICE:
23 Q. In light of the accused's observation, Mr. Jokanovic, just help me
24 with this: You said you were moving Yugoslavia into a Western democracy
25 under his leadership. Do you understand that in Western democracy,
1 supervision of financing is typically in the hands of what is going to be
2 the lower of any two houses of parliament, typically, in order that the
3 elected representatives may supervise how money is spent? Is that your
4 understanding of basic Western democracy?
5 A. I have spoken about the constitution that was enacted with an eye
6 on the constitutions of Western countries. However, I'm not a financial
7 expert, and I don't know really anything about the supervision of the
8 spending of budget expenditures. As an MP, I received certain background
9 material --
10 Q. Forgive my interrupting you or seeking to interrupt you because I
11 want to bring my questioning to a conclusion, but your last answer --
12 there's about two other topics, each of them can be very short. Your last
13 answer doesn't fit very comfortably, does it, with the fact that it was
14 you who, in 1994, conducted the investigation into the Dafiment bank?
15 A. I was a delegate to the federal Assembly, a federal MP, in the
16 federal parliament which set up a board of inquiry that was to investigate
17 into the circumstances that made it possible for this bank to came into
18 existence and to operate in the way it operated. It is a parliamentary
19 procedure within which MPs sought information from certain organs in order
20 to present them to the Assembly. But that is not.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... as president of the board of
22 the inquiry. And this is a report that found a high level of corruption
23 in a pyramid bank that was there to raise money and has been the subject
24 of a further report since then. Not by you but by outsiders.
25 A. As chairman of that board of inquiry which was composed of federal
1 MPs, I did not conduct the investigation. The investigation was conducted
2 by organs of the MUP and the Court. I as an MP headed the board of
4 Q. The accused Milosevic was involved in that bank, as has been found
5 since in another report?
6 A. That was a good report that was drawn up by federal MPs, that was
7 unanimously adopted by both the party in power and the opposition. And
8 this board of inquiry got hold of a lot of information from all the organs
9 who conducted the inquiry. They also heard Dafina Milanovic, and at no
10 point did the board of inquiry establish that Mr. Milosevic was involved
11 in the setting up or the operation of that bank. Our report speaks about
12 the weaknesses displayed by the governor of the National Bank, inspectors,
13 and other authorities, and I believe the report suggests a set of measures
14 to deal with it.
15 As for Mr. Milosevic, statements of anybody about it, there is
16 nothing to indicate that in any of the information that the board of
17 inquiry had.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since a moment ago, Mr. Nice
20 mentioned that I had something to do with that Dafiment bank, and he
21 mentioned a report about it. Will you please mediate in order to enable
22 me to get that report, because this is the first time I'm hearing I was
23 involved with the Dafiment bank. I would really like to see that report
24 he's referring to. I'm really curious.
25 MR. NICE: I will provide it to him.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: And, Mr. Nice, you have to watch the time now.
2 We have to stop at a quarter to. The accused will need time for
4 MR. NICE:
5 Q. My last question goes back to the same topic. Between 1994 and
6 2000, you were first federal minister -- federal minister of the interior,
7 and then federal state prosecutor, Mr. Jokanovic. Apart from reading the
8 newspapers and watching the television, you must have been informed by
9 many, many government documents. I want you to help us, please, with
10 this: It's very recently, as you will know, been made absolutely plain by
11 the authorities in Serbia and Montenegro that Mladic's employment file
12 shows he was kept on the books until 2002. How was he paid and why?
13 A. I don't know that. I only read about that in the press, and I've
14 just heard it from you.
15 Q. In your position, assuming that in due course it's satisfactorily
16 established that what is being conceded in Belgrade is true, assuming
17 that's true, for you as minister of the interior not to know that, does
18 that mean that people were keeping that from you? And, if so, who was
19 keeping such information from a federal minister?
20 A. Mladic was in the military. What would the federal minister have
21 to do with the army? I had nothing to do with the army. You are trying
22 to implicate me in something of which I knew nothing and had no contacts
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.
25 Mr. Milosevic, before -- are you going to re-examine,
1 Mr. Milosevic?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few questions. And prior to
3 that, I would like to kindly ask you, as I don't have enough time, the
4 usher has just given me a copy of the report of the board of inquiry on
5 the assessment of the situation in the sector of the Citizens Foreign
6 Currency Savings, financial operations of the Dafiment bank, Mixed
7 Ownership Bank D. D., Joint Stock Company, Jugoskandik, Inos bank,
8 Srpsko-Moravska Bank, and Aleksandar Bank.
9 This is a voluminous document, and as Mr. Nice has just explained
10 us that he has some information about my involvement in this, could you
11 please ensure that I am told which segments of this document I need to
12 read, because I don't have time to read it in its entirety.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness made no comment on it. There is no
14 evidence on it.
15 Before you begin your re-examination, let's me just say that you
16 raised the question of time for cross-examination. We allowed for
17 cross-examination to go beyond the normal time because we thought it was
18 warranted, though I should say, Mr. Nice, in future, we will be more
19 strict in that because we have to ensure that the accused has time for
21 Also, Mr. Milosevic, please bear in mind that any time that goes
22 beyond the time allocated will not be counted against you. In the end,
23 the obligation is to ensure that you have the same time to present your
24 Defence as the Prosecutor did. Please start.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that it will be so,
1 Mr. Robinson.
2 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Just a few questions, Mr. Jokanovic. Who
4 introduced emergency measures in Kosovo in 1989?
5 A. In 1989.
6 Q. Well, the ones that Mr. Nice asked you about.
7 A. It was the Presidency of the SFRY.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. And the decisions were passed by the Executive Council of Kosovo.
10 I have the Official Gazette here with me.
11 Q. Thank you. Amendment 47 has been mentioned here, and then its
12 provisions were quoted. I'm not going to go into that, but based on what
13 you gave evidence about here, based on what could be seen from the
14 documents, did amendment 47 emerge from this democratic process and from
15 the public discussion which took place throughout Serbia, including
16 Kosovo, as its integral part? Yes or no.
17 A. Yes. And I stated what were the purposes of public discussions.
18 Q. All right. So amendment 47 was a result of a public discussion
19 held by citizens.
20 A. Yes. In the entire territory of Serbia, including both provinces.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic. Please tell me, here on page 1 you gave
22 the names of the guests attending the session, and as it is a very brief
23 list, it seems as though the number of guests is quite limited. I would
24 like you to confirm something.
25 You informed the deputies that the session is attended by the
1 following, and then you go on to say, Sinan Hasani, member of the SFRY
2 Presidency; Sefcet Jasari, member of the Presidency of Serbia; Velimir
3 Vukmanovic and Ferat Ahmeti, vice-presidents of the Assembly of the
4 Socialist Republic of Serbia; and then you just mention many other guests
5 collectively. You say vice-presidents of the Constitutional Commission of
6 the Socialist Republic of Serbia, representatives of the Yugoslav People's
7 Army, representatives of all, and I emphasise all socio-political
8 organisations of the province, and then you mention Deputy
9 Secretary-General of the federal Executive Council, then deputy secretary
10 for agriculture, and then you say "presidents of municipal Assemblies and
11 other guests," which means that there were 26 representatives from
12 municipal Assemblies in Kosovo, and then there are all these other people
13 mentioned cumulatively. All of that indicates that this is quite a large
14 number of guests. Is that clear?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So these guests who were not deputies to the Kosovo Assembly, did
17 any of them vote at this session?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did anyone vote except for the deputies of the Kosovo Assembly at
20 the time, in the presence of 180 journalists?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You mentioned that there was no electronic voting at the time. It
23 was a public, open voting. So do you know that even nowadays anybody can
24 get records on how people vote, even though today in Serbia they vote
25 electronically and that secret ballots were used only for very limited
1 occasions? So is there any doubt that the session of the Kosovo Assembly
2 was held in accordance with the constitution of Kosovo and the rules of
3 procedure of the Kosovo Assembly at the time?
4 A. No, no doubt about that whatsoever.
5 Q. Was there a legal possibility, was it legally possible for any
6 decision, including this consent to the amendments, to be challenged
7 before the Constitutional Court?
8 A. Yes. Any decision passed could have been challenged at the
9 Constitutional Court.
10 Q. Was this decision challenged before any Constitutional Court in
12 A. No, it wasn't.
13 Q. In the explanations which followed this session of the Assembly,
14 we saw the reports of the news agencies and so on. Ten people voted
15 against and two abstained from voting. So in all of these reports, it was
16 mentioned that those who voted against were persecuted and arrested later
17 on. Please tell us, were any of these people who voted against persecuted
18 or arrested?
19 A. No, they weren't. Nobody was persecuted or arrested for their
20 vote in the Assembly. There was a provision in a law concerning that.
21 People who were deputies had immunity.
22 Q. Mr. Jokanovic, just tell us this, please: At the time, the time
23 that you spoke about, up until 1990 when you left Kosovo, could anyone
24 from Belgrade have decided on any appointments within Kosovo?
25 A. No. Nobody from Serbia could decide or make decisions on who
1 would be appointed to what position in Kosovo until 1990, when a
2 multi-party system was introduced.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic. I have no further questions for you.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jokanovic, that concludes your evidence.
5 Thanks for coming to the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 MR. NICE: Exhibits?
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Exhibits, yes.
9 MR. NICE: Can I explain the position on --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. NICE: -- Defence 253 marked for identification. Our
12 understanding is that the document arrived untranslated in its entirety
13 because the accused had asked for it to be translated in full and the
14 service that provides translation had said that they wished to have
15 identified passages to be translated, and they weren't provided with that
16 -- an answer to that request and therefore they did nothing and they were
17 unable to help.
18 At the last minute realising that we weren't going to get an
19 English version, we identified passages that we thought would be of
20 relevance. First of all, the whole of the content of the accused, given
21 the line of the evidence that's been given by the witness on this topic,
22 and various selected passages, and I reviewed these when I first saw them
23 at the second break and realised that there wouldn't be time nor, in
24 reality, would it be possible for me to have organised them sufficiently
25 to present them in a satisfactory way to you.
1 Our request is that the exhibits should go in with these passages,
2 which we can make available, of translations as well so that there will be
3 some selected passage. It would always be open to the accused to seek
4 further passages to be translated as he had been requested by the
5 translation service, and I'll reserve, as it were, rights to argue on
6 these passages in due course, or possibly to put them to other witnesses,
7 but they having now been translated, and in particular the passage of the
8 accused in full on the question of the amendment of the constitution, but
9 I think they're probably documents you should have.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll do that.
11 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. Secondly, this exhibit, we
12 haven't, I think, given it a number. The open-source material. In the
13 event, we looked at the first two, and we looked at one subsequent one or
14 a small part of a subsequent one that starts at page 5632. I'm -- they're
15 all of the like --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Also 5647.
17 MR. NICE: 5647 as well. Yes, there are four. I'm sorry. I
18 overlooked that one. I'm again entirely in the hands of the Tribunal
19 whether we excise the others or simply leave them as a collection,
20 possibly because they'll be returned to later, they covering the period of
21 time with which we're particularly concerned.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Excise the others.
23 MR. NICE: Very well. We'll do that. Thank you for that.
24 As I've already indicated, I will be seeking in due course to --
25 or may seek in due course to call the potential witness referred to today,
1 and her name will be added to list B of the Prosecution list.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We haven't a number.
3 MR. NICE: Oh, I'm sorry.
4 JUDGE KWON: We need a number for that.
5 MR. NICE: His Honour Judge Kwon is always ahead of me on matters
6 of housekeeping.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be P796.
8 MR. NICE: Thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: And how about the Article 300?
10 MR. NICE: Oh, yes.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Article 3 --
12 JUDGE KWON: No, I'm asking the parties where that came from.
13 MR. NICE: Part of an existing exhibit. It's part of an existing
14 exhibit. Can the translation, when we get it, be added to --
15 JUDGE KWON: Do we have Article 3 in B/C/S already?
16 MR. NICE: We already have it in B/C/S.
17 JUDGE KWON: What's the number?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, transcript speaks of
19 Article 3, when in fact it's Article 300. It's 300, not 3.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, 300. That's correct, Mr. Milosevic.
21 MR. NICE: The existing exhibit is entirely in B/C/S, Ms. Dicklich
22 tells me. We can add -- 526, tab 6. There are already some, as I think I
23 indicated earlier, some parts translated for the witness Kristan. We can
24 simply, if this is acceptable to the Court, add the additional translation
25 to that exhibit, Your Honour, if that would be acceptable.
1 JUDGE KWON: So whole constitution is 526, tab 6.
2 MR. NICE: Tab 6, yes.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that where the translation is as well?
5 MR. NICE: That's where the existing partial translation is to be
7 JUDGE KWON: And you are not tendering the transcript of The Death
8 of Yugoslavia.
9 MR. NICE: Yes, of course, I always forget. That as well, yes,
10 those two clips from The Death of Yugoslavia.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, the history is that we had decided not
13 to admit the entire document, but some parts have been admitted.
14 MR. NICE: Correct.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: But in relation to these two clips, the witness
16 wasn't able to identify --
17 MR. NICE: If I may say so, I think in each case the -- in the
18 first case, the evidence was there for several purposes, but you will
19 recall that the -- that Vllasi, a man who has long been on list B, as a
20 matter of fact, explained the background, and I asked the witness
21 questions about that, which was the background to the change of the
22 Presidency of the Communist Party, and in any event, the -- he knew of the
24 The second clip, which was the mass meeting that preceded the
25 state of emergency was something that he knew about, and I think he said
1 he'd seen it on television at the time, and it's clearly an important
2 feature of the chronology in this case.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Then we'll admit clip 2.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will make a decision on these two clips later.
6 MR. NICE: As Your Honour pleases.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mark them for identification.
8 MR. NICE: As Your Honour pleases.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 JUDGE KWON: Number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: The number for the clips will be P797 marked for
12 identification. Video clips 1 and 2.
13 MR. NICE: Your Honours, one other thing while I'm on my feet:
14 The next witness, Terzic, is subject of an expert report. This morning we
15 were -- or last night we were served with two very large full files of
16 material, some I think not translated, or maybe the most of it not
17 translated. I'm not sure how much -- what percentage is translated.
18 Purely personally, it so happens that every second of the time
19 between now and next Monday morning was already earmarked for work,
20 nothing else, and so it will be quite difficult to divert to deal with two
21 full binders but it's going to be impossible if a great deal of the
22 material is not translated for me to deal with it. I say no more than
23 that. It's just going to be very difficult to deal with this material if
24 it's not translated and if it comes in as late as this.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you are consistently now
2 presenting material not translated. We have in the past accommodated you,
3 but the exception is becoming the rule, and I put you on notice that if it
4 continues, we will bar the evidence. The Rules of the Tribunal have to be
5 complied with, and there are very substantial and good reasons for those
6 rules. So please bear that in mind.
7 We are adjourned until -- adjourned until Monday at 9.00.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of
10 December, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.