1 Monday, 14 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 10.14 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me say immediately that the reason for the
7 delay is that there was another proceeding in this courtroom.
8 In view of the late start, we'll sit first until 11.20, then we
9 take the 20-minute break, then 11.40 to 12.50, and then another 20-minute
10 break, 1.10 to 2.20.
11 Mr. Milosevic, I think we are in open session, and we'll continue
12 in open session for the time being. I remind you that you had scheduled
13 this witness for two hours, one and a half of which -- an hour and -- I
14 think a little more than an hour has gone. Please start, Mr. Milosevic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
16 WITNESS: BARRY LITUCHY [Resumed]
17 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]
18 Q. [Interpretation] We're in open session, Mr. Lituchy, so I'm not
19 going to mention any names, the names of the Albanian we left off
20 discussing, and there's no need to play the tape any more. We've already
21 seen it.
22 I'd like to draw your attention to page 135 of the transcript
23 where one of the members of your working group or delegation -- it's at
24 the end of page 135 of the transcript, and the question asked there about
25 -- having to do with the KLA and the Albanian we're talking about who we
1 saw on the tape says: "I think that many join because they are forced to
2 do so." When asked why they joined. "[In English] If someone
3 refuses to join, he is tortured or killed. They used to say, 'They
4 vanished. Nobody knows where they are.'" That they vanish and nobody
5 knows where they are is under quotation as he was quoted, I suppose, UCK.
6 "People value their lives, so it is better to join the KLA than to be
8 [Interpretation] Just let's clear this point up because in
9 inverted commas, "They vanished. Nobody knows where they are," that's a
10 quotation in inverted commas. The person you talked to, did he quote what
11 the KLA was saying?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, just turn the page, one page, and at the top of page 137
14 you'll see the following: This same person that you're talking to,
15 interviewing, says the following: "[In English] In every case, Albanians
16 get hurt from all sides, but mainly from NATO bombing. More than 300
17 Albanians were killed by NATO bombings."
18 [Interpretation] Did he say anything more about the Albanian
20 A. Well, what he said in particular that -- that struck me was the
21 fact that he had travelled with a representative of the United Nations
22 throughout Kosovo during the bombings, and he had seen with that UN
23 representative the death and destruction and killing of Albanians by the
24 NATO bombing, and he had a pretty good knowledge about what was going on
25 in Kosovo because he told us he had travelled with the UN representative
1 all over Kosovo at that time during the bombing. And that -- that to me
2 -- that to me signified that it was a pretty comprehensive understanding
3 of how bad the bombing had been for the Albanians in Kosovo.
4 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Lituchy. Now, turn the page again, and
5 in that long paragraph where he gives a long account, a lengthy answer --
6 A. What page was that?
7 Q. Page 141. I apologise, 39.
8 JUDGE KWON: Can I make an observation, Mr. Milosevic? If you are
9 going to stick to the transcript, I'd like to make it clear that the
10 Chamber was informed by the interpreters there are substantial, not small,
11 discrepancies between what the Albanian witness said and the transcript.
12 So we may need some fuller translation of that.
13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I also inform the Chamber that I've
14 had some work done over the weekend. I haven't been able to deal with it
15 myself for obvious reasons --
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me just say that -- and I should have said
18 this before, that having received that information from the interpreters,
19 we order that the document be translated by CLSS. They have informed us
20 that they will be translating it, but in view of work pressure, it may
21 take some time.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, let me just remind
23 you, I pointed out the weaknesses of the translation, and I asked you to
24 bear in mind the fact that I consider authentic what the people actually
25 said, that is to say the videotape I consider to be the authentic original
1 document in this case as an exhibit. The transcript is just an auxiliary
2 to help us out, but what is authentic is what you can see and hear on the
3 videotape tendered. If there are some vital differences, that's another
4 matter, but the videotape is the original.
5 May I be allowed to continue?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue. We take that into account,
7 Mr. Milosevic.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Furthermore, on page 139, at the top where the person is speaking
10 about attempts at negotiation and so on and so forth, he says the
11 following -- it's in the middle of the paragraph at the top of the page:
12 "[In English] Kosovo is multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, and
13 multi-confessional. Unfortunately, we cannot -- unfortunately --"
14 [Interpretation] something is missing here but he says "... you cannot
15 find many ethnic groups in Kosovo. [In English]... Serbians, Romas,
16 Muslims, Egyptians, Albanians who do not support the political aims of KLA
17 have fled from Kosovo. One day it may be entirely cleansed and only one
18 ethnic group will be in Kosovo. These days KLA soldiers kill people who
19 work in the fields. I think that all people in Western countries who not
20 believe their government tells them the truth must bring out the truth
21 from our country."
22 [Interpretation] Tell me, please, Mr. Lituchy, as we can see that
23 this particular witness is giving extensive answers to the various
24 questions that you have asked him, did you ask him to give extensive
25 answers or did he do so of his own accord and endeavour to give
1 explanations in view of his profession, that is to say he goes into more
2 detail than the others?
3 A. Yes. He went into more detail because he knew a great deal about
4 what we were in fact looking for. The kinds of information and the kinds
5 of questions we were asking, he was extremely able to answer and wanted to
6 answer those questions.
7 Q. And if you turn the last page before we come to the photographs
8 where they ask him this, page 141, how he came to leave and so on, that's
9 the context that he's talking about: "[In English] One day before I left
10 Kosovo, a woman came to my flat and said that if I told people that my
11 father was killed by Serbs, I could have a position in KLA. The United
12 States is heavily involved with KLA, they work closely together. Why
13 didn't the United States do anything many months ago, when KLA was killing
14 citizens of Kosovo. United States took measures only when the KLA was
15 about to be destroyed."
16 [Interpretation] And then he goes on to explain what can one think
17 when one sees "[In English] What can one think when one sees Madeleine
18 Albright, President Clinton, Hasim Thaci together, and Albright gives
19 Thaci a kiss?"
20 [Interpretation] So what did this witness tell you in actual fact?
21 Since you yourself are an American and you talked to that group, what did
22 he tell you about the position of the American side in these events,
23 especially with respect to the KLA?
24 A. He made it quite clear that the KLA -- or according to his
25 knowledge, and we believe it was -- it is extensive from what he said,
1 that the KLA was supported by the United States government. I'd like to
2 just add that he also in reference to the previous question you posed to
3 me, President Milosevic, the man in question here, his father was murdered
4 by the KLA. He told us that, and that is in the period before the
5 bombing, of course. So that to me seems to be the -- maybe the -- maybe
6 the greatest motivation for him if his father was murdered by this
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, did I understand you
9 correctly? Am I allowed to ask the witness something with respect to what
10 Mr. Nice brought up with respect to the subsequent contacts with this
11 witness or not?
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll allow you to ask those questions,
14 Mr. Milosevic.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Lituchy, Mr. Nice explained at the beginning of last week's
17 session during which you testified about your interviews with these
18 witnesses that he managed to get in contact with this particular witness.
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. And to paraphrase, the witness now lives in Kosovo, and the
21 witness says that what he said in your interview he was forced to say, he
22 had to say, because in the room with you you had some members of the
23 secret police of Serbia or Yugoslavia. It doesn't matter what he said,
24 but anyway, they were wearing civilian clothes.
25 Could you please answer this: You've already said that none of
1 the authorities attended the interviews, but was there any member of the
2 police wearing civilian clothes, perhaps, or wearing anything else,
3 without a uniform, with a uniform? Were they in any kind of contact with
4 you or the witnesses or, rather, the interviewees that he talked to?
5 A. Your Honour, I didn't hear Mr. Nice say actually that, but --
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Precisely. I'd like to be directed to where the
7 material is that indicates that is what Mr. Nice said.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, he said that before the
9 beginning of the -- or, rather, at the beginning of the session. He said
10 that he had been in communication with the witness, and I heard him --
11 that with my own ears. Now, I didn't ask for the transcript, but he said
12 that the witness explained how there was some representative of the police
13 wearing civilian clothes. Now, whether that's in the transcript or not, I
14 really can't say, but that's what I heard, and everybody else heard it,
15 I'm sure, as well.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it would appear that Mr. Lituchy, like me,
17 did not hear it.
18 THE WITNESS: I only heard that he said he had spoken with that
19 particular witness. I actually didn't hear the part of the police, sorry.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, don't pursue that line of
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll leave that to one
23 side until I've checked the transcript.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Lituchy, a moment ago you said that it was this particular
1 witness who informed you, or person who informed you that the KLA members
2 had killed his father.
3 A. Yes. That's correct.
4 JUDGE KWON: Sorry to interrupt. Can I remind the parties that
5 Mr. Nice had said that -- it's page 2, line 19, that I quote: "He
6 explained how at the time of the interview as well as the presence of the
7 other two men referred to yesterday for protective measures purposes there
8 were also plain clothed Serbian Interior Ministry police officers." Am I
9 correct, Mr. Nice?
10 MR. NICE: It accords with my recollection. I'm just trying to
11 find -- it accords with my recollection. I'm just trying to find the
12 passage in the transcript which I read over the weekend but now of course
13 can't find it. It accords with my recollection.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: In light of that clarification by Judge Kwon, to
15 whom you will be grateful, I'm sure, you may proceed with the question.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kwon, for having
17 managed to find that.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Lituchy, could you answer the next question: Was there any
20 kind of policeman in civilian clothes, not civilian clothes, or wearing
21 whatever or not wearing a uniform, was anybody like that in the room with
23 A. That is a complete fabrication and -- and a ridiculous one as
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why would it be ridiculous?
1 THE WITNESS: Well, we were -- we came to interview those people.
2 It would be ridiculous to suggest that we came with Serbian police. It
3 seems -- it seems absurd, to me, anyway.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Was there anyone else there at all?
6 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. There were two representatives from the
7 Roma federation or association. Yes, there was Mr. -- should I name those
8 individuals? I think they're in the transcript, so Mr. Damjanovic and
9 Mr. Haliti.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: And those were the only other two persons in the
12 THE WITNESS: I believe that's correct. There may have been --
13 well, there may have been one other Roma with -- with them, I think,
14 possibly, but as far as -- as -- to the best of my recollection, it was
15 just the Roma federation people, that's all. And us.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: And generally in relation to all the interviews
17 that you --
18 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was that the --
20 A. Yes, absolutely. It was just with the Romas. We were just with
21 the Roma people when we interviewed the Romas, and when we interviewed the
22 Albanian refugees we were just with the Albanian refugees and a couple of
23 Romas. In a hotel at that time.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you tell us how you managed to -- to gain
25 access to these people? Did you have to go through any authorities?
1 THE WITNESS: No, no. Actually, we were -- since I've -- I've
2 been asked this before, I'll answer it again but even with a little bit
3 more detail. We were actually a little bit disappointed, to say the
4 least, that we couldn't get any help from the government as far as these
5 interviews were concerned because we thought that -- we thought that our
6 delegation was important enough that it should have -- that it should have
7 received some sort of assistance. But as I recall at the time, President
8 Milosevic was organising a conference for Serbs and diaspora in Belgrade
9 and that was apparently -- I think, actually, in fact we were told there
10 was no time to help us at all. We were specifically told that when we
11 contacted somebody from the I think Ministry of Refugees about that. So
12 -- so what we did -- so what I organised was through my own contacts that
13 I was able to develop while I was there, yes.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: And from your knowledge, were the state
15 authorities aware of the interviews taking place?
16 THE WITNESS: I think only afterwards.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. As far as I remember, Mr. Lituchy, you explained that the
20 Albanians you talked to you contacted with the help of the representatives
21 of the Roma federation; is that right?
22 A. Correct. And let me add also on that point. The Roma people
23 being so desperate, they were looking for us to help them. They wanted --
24 they wanted to do as much as they could for us. It was only natural that
25 they would help us with these interviews. Sorry.
1 Q. Mr. Lituchy, in your explanation, you said -- when explaining the
2 KLA, you said that on the basis of the criteria you were able to apply in
3 a fascist -- well, that was applied in a fascist organisation which
4 liquidates anybody who doesn't think the same as they do or political
5 opponents, and in light of that answer of yours to that effect, I'm asking
6 you can you -- have you got any explanation about the conversation that
7 Mr. Nice had with this person who lives in Pristina now?
8 MR. NICE: Well -- he obviously can't deal with that. If the
9 Court wants to hear his answer, by all means, but it's not going to be of
10 any value.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I don't see the point of that question.
12 Ask another question, Mr. Milosevic.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Well, in view of the character of the organisation that you
15 described, Mr. Lituchy - I mean the KLA, that's what I'm talking about -
16 did you receive any information or become informed of the relationship of
17 that organisation towards its political adversaries, for example, or
18 individuals who would be able to present a fact that would compromise the
20 MR. NICE: Same observation: Tendentious, leading, whatever you
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think Mr. Nice is right again. It's very
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Well, the question,
25 Mr. Robinson, seems to be leading, would appear leading if you do not have
1 in mind the kind of organisation we're talking about here and what the
2 actual state of affairs over there is. Now, if you have that in mind and
3 if you have in mind how many Albanians they killed if they did not agree
4 with them, even postmen carrying letters, for example, then it would be
5 quite clear to you that --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're now moving into the area of comment,
7 Mr. Milosevic. Let us move on.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Let's move on to your interviews with the Egyptians and Roma. If
11 I understood you correctly, Mr. Lituchy, you did not ask, when it came to
12 these tapes that we're going to play now and which relate to the Egyptians
13 and Roma, that they be protected. They can be shown in open session; is
14 that right?
15 A. That's correct, yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please could the technical booth
17 play the excerpts from tape number 12, or excerpt number 12, and then we
18 can take it from there. At the beginning we have Mr. Cerim Abazi, and I
19 can see, and this is on page 30 of this material, he said: "I lived in
20 Pristina. I came to Zemun Polje." And Zemun Polje, by the by, is one of
21 the suburbs of Belgrade, quite a long way from the centre, but let us see
22 the excerpt.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.
24 MR. NICE: Our analysis of pages 30 through to 45 is that it all
25 relates to events after the bombing --
1 THE WITNESS: That's false.
2 MR. NICE: I wonder if the Chamber would remind the witness not to
3 interrupt when the Chamber is being addressed by counsel.
4 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is unacceptable behaviour, Mr. Lituchy.
6 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: And might also be contemptuous. Yes.
8 MR. NICE: Our analysis is this all relates to material after the
9 bombing was over and therefore would be irrelevant. Of course if I've
10 missed something I would be happy to have the time taken with it, but it's
11 a matter for the Chamber and the accused to point what he really wants out
12 of this quite extensive period of interview.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you have heard the objection
14 raised by Mr. Nice. He says that this material from pages 30 to 45 is
15 irrelevant in that it relates to events after the bombing and doesn't bear
16 on anything in the indictment.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, the overall conduct of
18 the KLA that is talked about here is highly relevant for what Mr. Nice
19 says the army did, the police did, and the others, and which I'm being
20 held accountable and charged with. So they speak in great detail about
21 the behaviour and conduct of the KLA, and this time vis-a-vis the Roma,
22 people, for example, towards them, in this particular case, and they
23 cannot say even by a wide stretch of the imagination that they had done
24 any harm to them, and they're even very often of the same faith, because
25 most of them are Muslims.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll consider the objection.
2 MR. KAY: I can just see a passage where, "On May the 11th, I was
3 in a police car with two other people..."
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is that?
5 MR. KAY: I don't have a paginated version. Thirty -- 37, in the
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, and what were you pointing to, Mr. Kay?
8 MR. KAY: "On May the 11th, I was in a place car with two other
9 people, and that car was attacked by KLA soldiers." So some aspects
10 are --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. And what's the last date --
12 MR. KAY: June the 10th.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The outside date is June the 10th -- June the
15 MR. KAY: Yes.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: So, Mr. Nice, the mere fact that the events might
17 relate to the period after the bombing doesn't necessarily mean that it is
18 -- wouldn't necessarily make it irrelevant to the indictment.
19 MR. NICE: Certainly in our respectful submission it would because
20 what we're concerned with here is what happened before people left Kosovo
21 and in order to drive them out, and what happened afterwards and what
22 drove them into Serbia is not a matter of concern to us nor something upon
23 which I shall be cross-examining the witness. There is an enormous amount
24 of material here of one kind or another, and if we go into all of it it's
25 going to take a great deal of time. I'm trying, in large part, to save
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'll allow you to lead it, but be
3 selective. Not everything here will be critically relevant to your case,
4 to the indictment. So be very selective. For example, the passage to
5 which Mr. Kay referred would be relevant. So concentrate on material like
6 that, and remember that the time is not unlimited.
7 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
8 JUDGE KWON: We are not getting any translation.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English booth now?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I bear that in mind, Mr. Robinson,
12 but the reason why the KLA was expelling the Roma, in this case no
13 reference is made to the Serbs or others, it doesn't really differ from
14 the reasons why they were expelling people two months previously, three
15 months previously, a year or many years previously, for that matter.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you commence, Mr. Milosevic, and we'll make
17 a determination as to relevance on a case-by-case basis.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right. Then very
19 briefly. You have the entire transcript. You have the tapes in their
20 entirety. We are just going to be playing brief clips from clip number 12
21 onwards, and then I'm going to put a few questions to the witness.
22 [Videotape played]
23 "Abazi: ... KLA in Pristina. He came here about one month ago,
24 said in his home he didn't live there. There live Albanian terrorists.
25 His house was burned.
1 Lituchy: His house was burned.
2 Abazi: Yes.
3 Lituchy: Did he lose any other property besides his house?
4 Abazi: It's his flat and his house.
5 Lituchy: And what about his family?
6 Abazi: All his family is here. His brothers, they lived in
7 Krusevac in tents because they have no flat or house in which to live.
8 Lituchy: Were any of his relatives killed or wounded?
9 Abazi: There are some wounded people in his family but he doesn't
10 know the number.
11 Lituchy: I would like to say --"
12 [Videotape played]
13 "Takih: His name is Tayih Takih. He had a house in the centre in
14 the place Magura and he is Egyptian. His home was protected by the
15 military and the army and one day there is no one left in that place. The
16 Albanian people didn't go out in the street, no woman and no children, but
17 the day when the army and the military left at that place, they came out.
18 The Albanian people burnt down 19 homes, 19 buildings.
19 Lituchy: In which town was this?
20 Takih: Magura. He now has no food, no property, no clothes, no
21 food. His 20 members of his family are here. Okay.
22 Rezeza: His name is --"
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can go ahead.
24 [Videotape played]
25 "Rezeza: First his brother was killed in Kosovo Polje. He lives
1 near the railroad station in Krstic. His family, he has 45 members. He
2 has no money and is starving. He has no property, no food, no money. The
3 people who told him to go out or in fact he will be killed with all his
4 family. They were in the uniform but some of them were in clothes. He
5 doesn't know the names of that Albanian people because that were not
6 Albanian people from that place.
7 Lituchy: What property was taken from him?
8 Rezeza: His home is not burned down, but he can't -- came back
9 and can't live there. And now they sleep where they can.
10 Berisha: His name is Berisha Adan. He is from Obilic place in
11 Kosovo and he is refugees with his family. His granddaughter or grandson
12 is only three months. He was tortured by the KLA soldiers and also two
13 neighbourhoods, the Albanians neighbourhoods and his son, he was 12 years
14 old, was killed by them and now -- this is a picture of that guy and he is
16 Lituchy: What is his name?
17 Berisha: His name is Berisha Idis.
18 Koteska: And he was 12 years old.
19 Fishkin: Tell him that I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and
20 that our hearts are with him.
21 Koteska: This is Kuraj [phoen], and he will --
22 Berisha: And he was tortured by the KLA terrorists.
23 Koteska: And you can see her arm, her face.
24 Berisha: He was one of the terrorists.
25 Koteska: His ex-neighbour who has tortured him and his wife and
1 the other one was ...
2 Berisha: Krasniqi Habib. It was the two brothers who tortured
3 them. They bring out his family from the house and they took all the
4 things they need from their house
5 Lituchy: What was the address of his house?
6 Berisha: It's Jugobogdan Street 270, Obilic.
7 Lituchy: And what town is that again?
8 Koteska: Obilic. Obilic.
9 Lituchy: He lost a house and what else?
10 Berisha: He lost his house, his son. He lost his job, also his
11 son lost a job, and he worked in the factory and he worked there for 26
12 years, and now he doesn't work. This was the paper that he was working
13 there. One month ago, on Thursday, the KLA soldiers killed his father and
14 his two uncles.
15 Lituchy: What was their names?"
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm going to stop the tape, stop
17 the tape, and direct some questions to you. The difficulty that I am
18 having is in determining the period to which the witness's statement
19 relate and whether that period is within the indictment period. Some of
20 it clearly, clearly is not, and I don't know how you would be able to
21 substantiate that the events to which the statements relate fall within
22 the indictment period. It appears to be of a very general nature. But
23 let me hear your answer, and then I'll hear from Mr. Nice and Mr. Kay,
24 because I don't think we should continue if we're not able to substantiate
25 the periods to which the statements relate.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, there is no doubt, and
2 we established that at the very beginning, that these interviews were
3 conducted, as the witness said, in August 1999. These interviews were
4 conducted in August 1999, but people -- these people are talking about
5 what happened to them during the war, during the conflicts in Kosovo and
6 of course after the clashes when they were expelled.
7 I don't mind if you will not watch the video footage any more.
8 I'm going to put questions to the witness about what the interviewees said
9 to him. We can rely on the video footage, too, but I'm just going to ask
10 him to say when the relevant time that you're interested in was.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's critically important for us.
12 Mr. Kay.
13 MR. KAY: Conduct after the period of the indictment can be
14 relevant in a general way to show perhaps the state of mind of the other
15 groups within Kosovo Albanian society and how they were reacting generally
16 to the Serbs who were an ethnic minority in that particular region.
17 The evidence of the Prosecutor was presented in this way, that it
18 was the Kosovo Albanians who were oppressed and discriminated against and
19 had to bear the brunt of the Yugoslav government forces in dealing with
20 them in a particular way involving force and discrimination. If, however,
21 the population that is being alleged to have been affected that way is
22 itself actually in possession of those characteristics acting in that way,
23 it's been Mr. Milosevic's case that this course of conduct that they were
24 embarking upon during the period of the indictment before the conflict was
25 also being sustained afterwards goes to show the correctness in a general
1 way of what he has been asserting, then in our submission it may well have
2 relevance, albeit limited because it's not within the confines of the
3 indictment, but passages of it could go to show the force of his argument
4 in a general way.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Maybe too general a way.
6 Mr. Nice.
7 MR. NICE: Little to add. They appear all to have left at the end
8 of or after the bombing. They left for Serbia. We are concerned with
9 people who essentially left Kosovo for other reasons and went to Macedonia
10 and Albania. But the utility of this material in showing disposition, if
11 there is an identifiable disposition of the KLA, would have to be
12 modulated by the fact that at the time of the acts spoken of here, even
13 the act of May 11th that we looked at on page 37, comes after a change of
14 fortunes and in the course of the bombing.
15 The May the 11th one is of somebody who doesn't leave until June
16 the 26th, as we can see on page 37. So that I stick by my original
17 position that this is material that is unlikely to be of any value to the
18 Chamber and not material I'm likely to be cross-examining on.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we don't consider this material to
21 be directly -- directly relevant. You have other evidence which is
22 clearly relevant to the period that the indictment deals with and which
23 can help the Chamber. We don't consider this evidence will be very
24 helpful to us. So let us move on to other material that you have.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Robinson, I'm aware
1 of the fact that it is this witness who is testifying. We don't have to
2 play the tapes any more, but I'm going to put a few questions to him that
3 have to do with what the witnesses said to him about the time period that
4 you consider to be relevant.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. For example, Mr. Lituchy, you talked to Mr. Abazi, didn't you, the
7 representative of the Egyptians; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What did Mr. Abazi tell you about the position of Egyptians until
10 1990 and after 1990 in Kosovo and Metohija?
11 MR. NICE: Before he answers may we know if that is in fact
12 covered in the materials as to any notes? If so, the page number. If
13 it's not covered in the notes, is the witness speaking from any other
14 notes? If not, then we'll know it's just from memory.
15 THE WITNESS: On page 30, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Page 30.
17 THE WITNESS: If you look at the first paragraph where Mr. Abazi's
18 name is mentioned, and you take a look at the last sentence: "We were not
19 allowed --" and he's speaking about the period before 1999. "We were not
20 allowed to say that we were Egyptians because we were told that we are
21 Albanians because our language is Albanian." He's referring to the KLA,
22 because the KLA did not -- I should mention that the Egyptians are one of
23 the groups of the Roma people but they are distinguished from the main
24 group of Roma people in that they do speak Albanian as their primary
25 language. Therefore, the KLA wanted, in order to -- wanted -- were
1 persecuting them if they did not identify themselves as Albanians even
2 though they are Roma. That's what he's saying in this sentence. And
3 that's actually a very well-known fact about the Egyptians in Kosovo.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Lituchy, let me make a correction. In the transcript it says
6 before 1999, and he really says before 1990, and then in the middle of
7 this paragraph he says "In the '90s through the democratic process we
8 established our association."
9 A. No, no. I was saying that I was -- I put the 1999 in there. I
10 didn't -- it was not in the transcript. I'm -- I'm -- I was explaining
11 what this sentence means in this transcript, what Mr. Abazi was saying,
13 Q. All right.
14 MR. NICE: I'm sorry to have to regularly object to things this
15 witness is saying, but we are really back to expertise again. Here we
16 have a simple, apparently one-line answer by the witness -- I beg your
17 pardon, not by the witness, by the person spoken to, Abazi. Now we have a
18 long explanation of his answer by the witness. It wouldn't normally be
19 permitted because it constitutes commentary and he's going to say it's
20 expert commentary on what he's being said. There must be some parameters
21 in which this evidence should fit.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we could -- we could accept what he said
23 as a factual comment, Mr. Nice.
24 Mr. Milosevic, I am of the view --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- that you are spending too much time on this
2 when you have more relevant material to deal with, and prior to today you
3 had spent one hour and 50 minutes with this witness. You had scheduled
4 him for two hours. So you're now well beyond that time, and you have more
5 relevant material to deal with. It's a question of how you manage your
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand that, Mr. Robinson. It
8 is in my interest to manage my time as rationally as possible. I assure
9 you of that. However, I must react to what Mr. Nice said just now. He
10 said that this was commentary, what Mr. Lituchy was saying, but that's not
11 the case at all.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have dealt with it. I have dealt with it.
13 There is no need for you to rise to the bait on every
14 occasion, Mr. Milosevic. Let us proceed.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to read out a
16 quotation to you. It's not my answer. It's really just a quotation. But
17 never mind.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no, no. I have already ruled on it, so there
19 is no need for you to deal with it.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Lituchy, please, just very briefly I would like to deal with a
23 few witnesses, and please just tell me if you have something that the
24 witness said about the period that is considered to be relevant here. You
25 talked to Mr. Sefedini, right? Did Mr. Sefedini say something to you
1 about the position of the Roma?
2 A. Yes, he did.
3 Q. Only if you have something that pertains to this period on which
4 Mr. Robinson insists.
5 THE WITNESS: If I could have a clarification, Judge Robinson.
6 You're referring to a period before March 1999? Is that what you're -- or
7 prior to June 1999?
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Prior to June 1999. 20th of June, which is the
9 outside date in the indictment.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Mr. --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I should clarify that the Chamber does not apply
12 the date in a mechanical manner. As Mr. Kay explained, there may be
13 things outside the indictment date which may be relevant for a particular
14 reason, but in this case we want evidence prior to June.
15 THE WITNESS: June 10th or June 20th?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: June 20th.
17 THE WITNESS: 20th.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Sefedini told me that Albanian, as it says on
20 page 31 of the transcript, that members of the KLA attacked him and forced
21 him to leave his home and that now that property has been taken over by
22 Albanian terrorists. That would have been in that -- in that time period.
23 It's three days after the military agreement in Kosovo. So I suppose
24 that's June 13th, isn't it? June 13th?
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. All right. You talked to Mr. Tefiq. Did he say something to you?
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
3 MR. NICE: Can I help you, I hope? This is one example, according
4 to the work we've done over the weekend, where if you look at the answer
5 at the top attributed to Sefedini and there is a reference to Albanian
6 separatists and followed by a reference to the KLA to which the witness
7 has referred. My understanding is that that's one example where the KLA
8 simply isn't mentioned and the -- those who prepared the transcript have,
9 for whatever reason, have added things like "members of the KLA" when the
10 words "KLA" aren't there. We'll have to check this, obviously, against
11 the eventual transcript of the tape, but that is an example of the sort of
12 problems that I understand we face.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: That would be a very serious misrepresentation if
14 that is so, Mr. Nice. We will be getting a translation from the proper
15 authorities, and when we get that, then we'll have to re-examine our
16 transcripts of the evidence and make our own assessment.
17 That may be another reason, Mr. Milosevic, for you to reconsider
18 your approach to this evidence.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have already said to you
20 that it is the tape that is the evidence that I'm submitting. If there
21 are mistakes in the current translation, they don't really matter to me
22 because it's the original on the tape that is relevant as far as I'm
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Lituchy, do you have anything characteristic to say about
1 Mr. Takih, the man you talked to?
2 A. Is that Tayih Takih?
3 Q. That would be it, roughly, yes.
4 A. Yes, that's on page 31. Well, I think relating to the objections
5 made earlier, there is something very important in this statement that
6 Mr. Takih made to me. He said that "My home was protected by the army,"
7 and then immediately after they left, his safety, his security, and his
8 property and even his lives -- the lives of his family, were in jeopardy.
9 And I think that's very important, especially in regard to the period
10 before 1999 because it clearly, clearly says that the Yugoslav army was
11 defending the rights --
12 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, Mr. Lituchy, could you tell the name
14 THE WITNESS: It's -- I apologise if I'm mispronouncing his name:
15 Tayih Takih.
16 JUDGE KWON: But on page 31 he is referring to his name as
17 Krasniqi Tefiq.
18 THE WITNESS: No. That's the Egyptian before him. I'm sorry. I
19 should have -- yes, they're very similar names.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: But what was I saying? I'm -- yes. He says, "I had
22 a house in the centre of Magura." This man Takih. "My home was protected
23 by the army but one day they were gone." He's referring, of course, to
24 the Yugoslav army, the Yugoslav army police. They were protecting him,
25 they were protecting his property, protecting his family and his right to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 live there. Then one day they were gone and then so, too, were his rights
2 and his safety. "Once I had fields, now I have no food, no property, no
3 home." This -- this, I think, is -- well, I won't comment on it because
4 I --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: But let me just direct your attention to the
6 point raised by Mr. Nice. At the top, Sefedini --
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- Mr. Nice is saying that the work that was done
9 by his translators over the weekend --
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- indicated that the reference to "members of the
12 KLA attacked me" should not be there at all. What is your recollection of
14 THE WITNESS: Judge Robinson, my recollection is, and it's
15 refreshed by looking at the transcript here on page 31, that the man
16 Sefedini, this refugee --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I would actually prefer a recollection not
18 refreshed by what you see on the transcript.
19 THE WITNESS: He referred to armed Albanian men on several
20 different occasions. It wasn't just this one reference. In other words,
21 if you look at the entire context of what's saying there and if -- if you
22 -- you know, if you think about the whole thing -- the statement, the
23 whole statement clearly indicates that he's referring to armed Albanians
24 who are terrorising him. Now, if he didn't use the word KLA, I'm not
25 aware of that, but in any event, he does refer to armed Albanian men.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes, we are going to break at 11.20,
2 as I indicated earlier. The first break, 11.20.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So, Mr. Lituchy, where you quote Takih on page 31, the penultimate
6 paragraph, or the third from the bottom, he says, "[In English] But the
7 day when the army left that place, they came out and burned down 19
8 homes." [Interpretation] So that happened on that same day?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Is that what you remember yourself?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Very well. Now, tell me this, please. You talked to Mr. Dulaj
13 on page 34. Let me just draw your attention to a quotation there when you
14 ask about his address, et cetera. He says what his address is and says
15 have "I have five children, my daughter -- [In English] Anesi Akmeti, was
16 raped by KLA soldiers. At night we were sleeping in our house, and KLA
17 soldiers broke in and dragged my daughter out and raped her."
18 [Interpretation] Do you remember that interview with Mr. Dulaj?
19 A. I believe it was Mrs. Dulaj.
20 Q. I apologise. I do apologise. Because you can't see here, and we
21 weren't able to look at the tape. I just have the surname.
22 A. That's my recollection. I believe it's the woman, yes.
23 Q. So well. So it's Mrs. Dulaj. Do you remember that conversation?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And do you remember something that would be characteristic for
1 Mr. Rezeza's testimony? Anything particular that Mr. Rezeza said during
2 the interview?
3 A. Could you point to the page?
4 Q. Rezeza is on the last page or, rather, the last paragraph of page
5 31. He says where he lived. He says that "his [In English] brother was
6 killed in Kosovo Polje." [Interpretation] And then goes on to say: "[In
7 English] My family has 45 members."
8 A. Yes. I'm sorry, what was the question again?
9 Q. The question was this: What did Rezeza tell you about the conduct
10 and behaviour of the KLA?
11 A. Well, clearly that they were -- that they were determined to kill
12 him and his brother, and I think - and let me just check this - but there
13 was -- there were several -- there were several examples where I
14 interviewed Romas where they told me -- Egyptians and Romas where they
15 told me that their family was particularly targeted because they were in
16 the Yugoslav army before the -- before 1999, and -- so that -- I'm not
17 sure if this is one of those instances, but let me just take a look here.
18 Yes. Well, I don't -- well, this may not be one of those
19 instances where -- I don't see mention of his brother being in the army,
20 but there are other instances in the transcript.
21 Q. Rezeza just says here, among other things, "First my brother was
22 killed in Kosovo Polje," "[In English] in Kosovo Polje." [Interpretation]
23 And then he speaks about other matters which were less serious than this
24 killing. Do you happen to remember that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Take a look at page 35 now, please, where you're talking to a Roma
2 man by the name of Berisha. That is six paragraphs from the bottom, one
3 line paragraphs. He says, "[In English] I was tortured by KLA soldiers,
4 by two of my Albanian neighbours. They killed my son..."
5 [Interpretation] and so on and so forth. Do you remember talking to
6 Mr. Berisha?
7 A. Yes, of course.
8 Q. And in connection with Berisha, and Berisha's on the tape and he
9 showed you, we saw that, how much he -- well, he said he worked in the
10 electrical distribution industry, whereas the translator says he worked in
11 a factory. So that was a little imprecision there, although it doesn't
12 matter, it's not any major difference or important difference. And he
13 says at the end of the passage: "KLA soldiers killed my father and my two
15 Do you remember talking to Mr. Berisha?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So when was it that the KLA soldiers killed his father and two
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: This will be the last answer and then we have to
20 take the break.
21 THE WITNESS: It was --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 THE WITNESS: I don't recall when -- when exactly he --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that not the reference to "One month ago this
25 Thursday KLA soldiers killed my father and my two uncles." Just about
1 halfway down page 36.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. "One month ago ..." So this would have been
3 July, the first week of July then.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: So that would be outside the period,
5 Mr. Milosevic. So that's not evidence that is going to help us.
6 We're now going to take the break for 20 minutes.
7 --- Recess taken at 11.24 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.49 a.m.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you may want to consider that the
10 tape has been played, and there isn't much point in going over the points.
11 We have seen the tape, and it's a matter for us to form our own views of
12 it. So you may want to move on to some other relevant piece of evidence.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'll conclude my
14 examination-in-chief of this witness very quickly, but I'd just like to
15 say that the persecution of the non-Albanian population has been going on,
16 and you know that full well here, intensively from the Prizren League in
17 1878. So that persecution of the non-Albanian population is a vital
18 element which must be borne in mind regardless of whether you place it
19 within the frameworks of the 20th of June, before or after that date.
20 But, yes, just a few more questions.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You have my assurance that it will not be
22 ignored as long as it is relevant. Please move on, Mr. Milosevic.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Lituchy, on page 37 there is a brief answer by Mr. Rakipi
25 there. He speaks at length but just this one: "[In English] On May
1 11th, I was in a police car with two other people and that car was
2 attacked by KLA soldiers. No one was wounded but the military car in
3 front of us was engulfed in flames."
4 [Interpretation] Do you remember that conversation?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did he tell you any more about the attacks by the KLA on the army
7 and police at that time?
8 A. I believe it was a woman again, President Milosevic. It was Rada
10 Q. I do apologise, but as I haven't got the tape before me, it's
11 difficult for me to distinguish just on the basis of the surname whether
12 it is a man or woman. But let's move on.
13 On page 41 we come to Berisha. "[In English] I left Pristina on
14 June 15." [Interpretation] That's what he says within the framework of
15 that period of time that we can discuss. He says, "[In English] My
16 brother was in the Yugoslav army. Five KLA soldiers came to my house
17 showing a photograph of my brother, asking for him ... They told me I
18 have just five minutes to produce my brother or they will kill my entire
20 [Interpretation] Then further down, he says: "[In English] I went
21 to British KFOR and told them what happened, and they told me to go
22 wherever I want but just leave this place.
23 "Lituchy: The British KFOR soldiers told --"
24 A. Yes, that's correct. In fact, there were two times where British
25 KFOR soldiers -- oh, no. The second time we're not sure if it's British
1 or not, but they were KFOR -- did not help protect these Roma -- these
2 Roma victims. There's the case on page 41 and on page 42. In other words
3 twice. First the sister of Hasim Berisha went to British KFOR and told
4 them -- told them what had happened, how they were being -- how their
5 lives were threatened. This is the brother -- I mean, this is Hasim
6 Berisha, this is his sister, and also it refers to their brother Malic
7 Berisha. The British KFOR forces basically told them to leave. They told
8 them, "You --" they basically went along with what the KLA was also
9 telling them; get out of Kosovo.
10 And in the second instance, on page 42, it's a slightly different
11 incident but they went to KFOR and one could -- one could argue perhaps
12 that KFOR is -- was not entirely knowledgeable, but it was a translator at
13 KFOR who -- who deliberately put these Romas in danger by not -- by not
14 helping them when their lives were threatened. And by the way, this was
15 all before June 15th. You mentioned June 15th, President Milosevic, but
16 it's actually the before June 15th because that's the day they left
17 Kosovo. They left Pristina on June 15th. So these events took place
18 before June 15th.
19 Q. Very well. Take a look at page 44, please. And we come to Kotesi
20 there. Do you remember your interview with Kotesi?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. "[In English] On June 18, KLA soldiers attacked Serbian and Roma
23 people in Gnjilane. At that time British and French KFOR soldiers also
24 entered the town. KFOR did nothing because they were on the other side of
25 the town but the town is not very big so they had to know what was
2 [Interpretation] Then he goes on to say how the non-Albanians were
3 attacked. "[In English] 300 metres behind me was another man was riding a
4 bicycle and KLA soldiers threw a grenade at him and killed him. I was
5 lucky..." [Interpretation] And you ask him what was his name, "[In
6 English] Abdulla Ramadani. He was twenty years old."
7 Do you remember that interview with him, Mr. Lituchy?
8 A. [Previous translation continues]... yes.
9 Q. And now at the very end in tab 2, tab 2 now, page 5, you ask this
10 -- the person's name is Shakolji. You asked him, "What happened in
12 MR. NICE: Have we had any evidence about the circumstances of tab
13 2? It's a totally different situation from tab 1. We need separate
14 justification if justification can be advanced for it ever to be admitted
15 when one looks at the date of its preparation. So a great deal more
16 groundwork is necessary before -- the Chamber may think, before it should
17 be considering this testimony.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Agreed. Introduce us to tab 2, Mr. Milosevic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, tab 2 relates to an
20 interview conducted later on, but the questions relate to 1999. As you
21 can see on page 5, for instance, Barry Lituchy says, "Tell us what
22 happened to you in 1999." I'm not going to read all this out now but he
23 says that they took his wife and two daughters. And in the middle of the
24 page Lituchy says, "Did they kill your wife?" And the answer is, "My wife
25 and my two daughters."
1 JUDGE KWON: We have not seen this video. We are not aware of
2 what this transcript is all about.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But you do have it.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Lituchy, is the tape in the set of tapes handed over here?
6 A. Yes, absolutely.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So you can find it. There's no
8 problem there.
9 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honours --
10 JUDGE KWON: No, it is for you to present evidence.
11 MR. NICE: Can I make one thing absolutely plain? If it will help
12 the Court, as far as I -- we were provided with a number of CDs or tapes
13 -- CDs was it? Nothing -- and we've had them listened to. As far as I've
14 been able to understand, nothing at all for tab 2. And while I'm on my
15 feet because I was going to mention this at some stage, if the Chamber
16 would be good enough to go to where we just ended off -- ended up, which
17 was page 45. Between page 45 and page 127, various interviews, and again
18 we've had no tapes or CDs covering those at all. And I'm going to raise
19 in due course as a separate ground of exclusion of all of that material
20 the fact that without the underlying material it certainly cannot be
22 JUDGE KWON: I remember that he said he would not present those
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, is there a tape for tab 2?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A tape for tab 2 does exist, yes,
1 and it was handed over here.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Prosecutor didn't receive it. We don't have
3 a copy of that tape. In the absence of a tape which is the basic original
4 material, you would not be allowed to lead evidence on this matter.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson. Then I'll
6 just ask a couple more questions.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Lituchy, you conducted a series of interviews with people who
9 were refugees at the time, in August 1999, that is, and they -- they told
10 you what had gone on. Now, my question is this: Did you find any other
11 proof and evidence testifying to the position of the Roma people, for
12 example, in Kosovo and Metohija, apart from the interviews you conducted
13 with these people?
14 A. Are you asking me about evidence that I collected or testimonies
15 or interviews that I made while I was there with Roma or subsequent?
16 Q. I'm asking you about any other proof and evidence. This is one
17 type of proof, these interviews. Do you have any other evidence?
18 A. Well, my intention was that we would look to see if the results or
19 the evidence that I -- that I was able to gather could be reproduced or
20 were going to be reproduced elsewhere and, yes, there were other -- other
21 reports. There were many -- there were reports that came out after our
22 visit, by Human Rights Watch and Voice of Roma. Even the UN Ombudsman for
23 Kosovo reported that -- supported our findings as far as what had happened
24 to the Roma in Kosovo, that they had been persecuted. I think that others
25 may not have come to the conclusion that these were crimes of genocide
1 against the Roma, but that was -- that was -- that was my -- that was my
2 understanding from what everything I heard in every interview, but yes,
3 there were many -- you see, the thing is what we -- what we heard was
4 replicated by every other independent researcher into this matter,
5 including the UN Ombudsman. So I suppose that -- that's a pretty good
6 scientific test of what we learned, validating it.
7 Q. Mr. Lituchy --
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Just a very brief question. I noticed with all these interviews
11 when you're talking to the individuals concerned, your interviewees, that
12 you always ask them for their address, the address they lived at before
13 they were expelled from Kosovo. Why did you do that?
14 A. My -- my belief is, and it's based also on my experience with
15 interviewing Holocaust survivors that not -- that the only way that any
16 kind of justice can be achieved is that the property that has been stolen
17 from these people is -- is paid for or returned to these people, and I'm
18 very, very concerned about that. That, in fact, is also one of the
19 reasons I went back -- went to Kosovo in 2004, to see exactly whether any
20 effort had been made to restore not merely the refugees but their property
21 and their -- and their belongings, and I think that that has to be kept in
22 mind by everyone who is interested in the subject of Kosovo.
23 Q. Mr. Lituchy, you also talked to the president of the European
24 Community in Kosovo, Mr. Prlincevic. Can you tell us briefly what
25 you remember about that, what you talked about?
1 A. I'm sorry, did you see the European Community or the Jewish
3 Q. Jewish community, Jewish municipality. I said Jewish.
4 A. I heard "European" in the translation, sorry. Yes, I spoke to
5 Mr. Cedo Prlincevic, who is the head of the Jewish community in Kosovo,
6 yes. I interviewed him. But he didn't want to be interviewed on -- on
7 video, on camera.
8 Oh, I'm sorry, was there a further question?
9 Q. Yes. Or, rather, let me ask you just one more question to do with
10 him. Do you remember what he told you?
11 A. Yes. He -- he -- I asked him when did he leave Kosovo, why did he
12 leave Kosovo, what did he leave behind; the same questions that I asked
13 all of the refugees, and he explained that he had -- he had left Kosovo
14 about ten days after the bombing had stopped, that he was forced to leave,
15 that he had to give up his job as the head of the city archives of
16 Pristina. He was from Pristina. In fact, his family had lived in
17 Pristina since 1650, he told me, and that when he left with his wife and
18 mother and other relatives, what was left of the Jewish community was
19 completely extinguished by the KLA, that that was -- in other words, what
20 had occurred -- what had not been done by the Nazis in World War II was
21 done by the KLA in two weeks.
22 Q. Is that your conclusion or did he tell you that?
23 A. No, I'm sorry. That's -- that was my -- I couldn't help but make
24 that observation, that last point, because the Jews of Kosovo were also
25 persecuted during World War II by Albanians. By Albanian fascists, I
1 should say. Not by all Albanians, certainly not.
2 Q. And finally, just one more question. Mr. Lituchy, did you have
3 any contact with non-governmental organisations, NGOs, and did you become
4 acquainted with the activities of the NGOs with respect to Kosovo and
6 A. Well, yes. I was interested in finding out if -- if other NGOs
7 were helping the refugees. As you can see in the transcripts and video I
8 asked that many times, and I was never -- I was never directly in contact
9 with them when I -- when I was interviewing the refugees. The refugees
10 told me that -- that -- that they were not receiving assistance from these
11 NGOs and these international aid agencies. You can find that mentioned
12 many times in these interviews. And that the -- and that also was later
13 confirmed by many reports, that Romas were excluded. They were prevented
14 from receiving aid, that the aid would only go to Albanians, and Romas
15 were not -- were -- generally suffered. I can recall from one report that
16 I read, I believe it was -- it may have been a Voice of Roma report that
17 the Romas could not receive aid from organisations like the Mother Teresa
18 organisation and the Islamic Red Cross and others because they were not
19 Albanians. But I did -- I did contact Human Rights Watch and I got their
20 reports, and they did have -- they did have two reports that confirmed
21 what I -- what I learned while in Kosovo, which is that the Romas were
22 being systematically persecuted by the KLA. The dates on those reports
23 are July -- are August 1999 and July 2004.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lituchy.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Mr. Robinson.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
4 Q. So the Human Rights Watch reports seemed to be systematic in a way
5 that you found acceptable?
6 A. In regard to Romas, yes.
7 Q. Are you a historian?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do recall yourself as a serious historian and a serious academic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is the document that you produced, this record and interviews, do
12 you regard this as a serious work of research?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. What investigators did you take with you with experience in
15 interviewing people to conduct these interviews?
16 A. I conducted the interviews.
17 Q. So you took no investigators. What training did you go through
18 before you decided how you would interview people?
19 A. Well, I prepared my questions in advance, yes.
20 Q. What training in the skill of investigation did you undertake?
21 A. My training involved my previous interviews with Holocaust
22 survivors and also with Croatian -- Krajinan Serb refugees. That was my
23 first-hand training. Sometimes training is in the field not in the
25 Q. Very well. Obviously you took no particular training for
1 yourself. Just in general terms, did you give any particular
2 consideration to the advantages or otherwise of interviewing people
3 individually or in groups or in crowds? Did you give thought to that?
4 A. Well, that -- that was where the conditions under which we -- the
5 only conditions under which we could do the interviews. It was very
6 difficult, I admit.
7 Q. If you take the interviews in the basement of the hotel, you chose
8 to conduct those in the presence of other people, not just one-to-one.
9 Why did you do that?
10 A. That was so my colleagues and the delegation could also
11 participate in the questioning of the refugees.
12 Q. So everybody could have a go, everybody could have a turn at
13 speaking and questioning?
14 A. Well, if -- if they had -- when I asked them if -- if they had a
15 question, yes.
16 Q. Did you give any thought to whether that was the best way of
17 getting the most accurate answers out of those you were interviewing,
18 Mr. Lituchy?
19 A. I didn't think that it compromised the answers given by the
20 refugees, no.
21 Q. You gave no thought to that really, did you?
22 A. I suppose not.
23 Q. No. Was this a neutral inquiry or was this an inquiry with a
24 particular purpose to serve?
25 A. Well, we didn't know -- we didn't know what the answers were that
1 we would get until we got them.
2 Q. Were you going to try and find evidence that would show the NATO
3 bombing to have been a terrible event?
4 A. Well, we were -- that was our understanding prior to our arrival
5 there, that there were -- that there were abuses, there were violations of
6 human rights. That was already our assumption, actually, before we went
7 but we did not know what the Romas or the Albanians would tell us until we
8 interviewed them.
9 Q. You were predisposed before you went against NATO and in favour of
10 the Romas; correct?
11 A. Of course I was in favour of the Romas, yes.
12 Q. And predisposed against NATO.
13 A. If they were -- if -- if their actions had hurt the Romas, yes.
14 Q. You were also predisposed against Albanians who were in any sense
15 separatists, weren't you?
16 A. Well, if -- it -- I wanted to find out what exactly the Albanians
17 had to say on that score, but I didn't -- I didn't -- I didn't know to
18 what extent the KLA had support among the Albanian population. I learned
19 as a result of my questions that the Albanians -- that not all Albanians
20 supported secession, that not all Albanians supported the KLA and that the
21 KLA was a great threat to the Albanians. So that was something that I had
22 to learn.
23 Q. I'll try the same question again: Predisposed against Albanians
24 who were separatists?
25 A. Well, "predisposed" can mean a lot of things. I'm not sure what
1 that means.
2 Q. Did you go and speak to any of the Albanians who had been forced
3 out into Macedonia or into Albanian?
4 A. No, I didn't have a visa to go to Albania or Macedonia, no.
5 Q. And at no time since have you investigated them, their stories,
6 their accounts, have you?
7 A. No, that's true.
8 Q. Why not? If you're a serious historian investigating this short
9 period of time, Mr. Lituchy, why not?
10 A. It was not -- it was not -- I did not have the time to make those
11 investigations, and that was not my priority, that's true.
12 Q. You're a great publicist, aren't you?
13 A. No, I don't think so.
14 Q. Don't you? Incidentally, before we move on, so that the Court can
15 know this, do you intend to write about in a public forum your experience
16 in this court?
17 A. Absolutely not.
18 Q. Good. Can we just look at one or two of the things you said.
19 We'll try to take them in date order.
20 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I'm happy to have the articles produced.
21 On the other hand, I'm quite happy not to burden the already heavy file of
22 exhibits in this case with writings of this witness. He acknowledges
23 saying the things contained in these articles, I'm quite content to leave
24 it at that and to leave the material on the transcripts, but I'm in the
25 hands of the Court, the accused, and to some extent Mr. Kay.
1 Mr. Prendergast, please, can we just lay this on the overhead
3 Q. Starting off, this is now the 27th of August, 1994. This comes
4 from the Coalition Against Western Intervention in the former Yugoslavia.
5 You remember being involved with that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Just if we can have a look at a couple of your then views. Is it
8 my screen or are they all a bit hard to read today? Is everybody else's
9 legible? Just looking at that first paragraph. Your expressed view then
10 was: "We all know what needs to be done. And I say this with some
11 sadness, because I am not by any means anti-Muslim or anti-Croat. But
12 what needs to be done, is for the Serbs to fight on to military victory in
13 Bosnia. There is no other way forward. And we must -- we all must do
14 everything in our power here and around the world to help the Serb forces
15 achieve this military victory."
16 Now, at this time, what, you were an academic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. No Serb background in your family?
19 A. What does that have to do with it?
20 Q. Please answer the question.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You must answer the question, Mr. Lituchy.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, I am a native born US citizen, but if the
23 question is do I have Serbian ancestry, I do have part Serbian ancestry,
25 MR. NICE:
1 Q. How far back?
2 A. A couple of generations ago.
3 Q. And is this what informs your then and present attitude towards
5 A. No, absolutely not.
6 Q. Doesn't it?
7 A. No, it does not. That's false.
8 Q. You see, what we can't help but notice is that in this paragraph
9 it's "We must do everything in our power."
10 MR. NICE: Mr. Prendergast, would you turn us to the second page,
11 please, and the foot of it. Thank you.
12 Q. There it is. "We must not --" we again "-- let the Western powers
13 succeed in dividing us. They want to divide the Bosnian Serbs from
14 Yugoslavia and the Serbs of Krajina because they can't militarily defeat
15 the Bosnian Serbs any other way. But if they can divide the Bosnian Serbs
16 from Yugoslavia and Krajina, then they can beat all three! That's their
17 strategy - it's a three for one deal. And you can see this reflected in
18 the recent articles of the New York Times which are gleefully reporting on
19 these divisions as a good sign."
20 The next paragraph: "We can't allow ourselves to be divided
21 because this would be essentially allowing the imperialists to watch us
22 beat ourselves. Nor can we allow the Bosnian Serbs to be defeated..."
23 Let's go back. These are still your views, are they?
24 A. My view is that the Serbian nation is one nation and it should
25 have the same national rights as all other nations to a unified national
2 Q. So you are -- you're not really an historian at all. You're
3 person with a political view, aren't you?
4 A. No, that's not true.
5 Q. Isn't it?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Read on, then. Have a look the next one, please, that I have in
8 date order, which is the 27th of January, 1995. Just see a couple of
9 examples of your then opinions.
10 MR. NICE: If Mr. Prendergast would show us the first page so we
11 can see what it is. Coalition Against Western Intervention in the former
12 Yugoslavia, Media Deception and the Yugoslav Civil War, by yourself.
13 Foot of the next page, please, Mr. Prendergast.
14 Q. Just see how you then saw the conflict. Right at the foot of the
15 page: "In August 1992, British television helped publicise the supposed
16 existence of concentration camps allegedly used by the Serbs to
17 exterminate Muslims and Croats. To prove that what they had discovered
18 was not a prison but rather a Nazi type death camp, ITN and others
19 broadcast pictures around the world, focusing on one emaciated man,
20 presumably a Muslim. Eventually that man was identified as --" The name
21 there, is that the right name, do you think, Slobodan Konjevic?
22 A. Are you asking me?
23 Q. I'm asking you; you said it.
24 A. I believed at the time that that was the correct name, but it may
25 -- I believe I subsequently learned that that was not the correct name.
1 I'm not sure, to tell you the truth, at this point.
2 Q. "... a Serb suffering from tuberculosis for ten years, arrested
3 for looting. The concentration camp/death camp story, having served its
4 purpose, was dropped. But by then the story had already been seen
5 millions of people. The fact that everyone in the photographs of these
6 'death camps' was well fed just somehow escaped reporters' attention.
7 "At about the same time as the death camp fabrication --"
8 JUDGE KWON: Next page.
9 MR. NICE: Sorry, next page, Mr. Prendergast. Thank you.
10 Q. "At about the same time as the death camp fabrication was the
11 'ethnic cleansing' story. While it is true that some Bosnian Serb forces
12 have evicted Muslims from their homes in Serb-held areas, what was not
13 said was that Muslim and Croat forces were carrying out the exact same
14 policy. But the media still presented it as a purely Serbian crime ..."
15 So that's your position at the time on the camps. Do you accept
16 now that there were camps?
17 A. Yes, but what I'm saying here is that -- I mean, that's not my
18 point. The point, as you just read it, was that this was presented as
19 purely a Serbian crime and that the Muslim and Croatian crimes of the
20 exact same nature were suppressed by the media and that there was a
21 demonisation going on of the Serbian people at that time, especially if
22 you take into consideration what's also in this article, that
23 illustrations were being made in leading newspapers like the Chicago
24 Tribune and the New York Times portraying Serbs as pigs, gorillas,
25 vultures. This is all in this article.
1 Q. Have a look at the foot of this page, if we can, please. And this
2 is the way you put it: "Incredibly, there are even worse examples. On
3 February 5, 1994, there was the infamous Sarajevo market massacre where 68
4 people were killed. The Serbs were blamed for it, that is until the story
5 leaked out on French TV that the UN knew that the Muslims had bombed their
6 own people in order to induce UN and NATO military involvement. The
7 disgusting ploy worked..." So still your position is it, that the UN knew
8 that the Sarajevo market massacre was --
9 A. What I'm saying there is that the UN -- that some people in the UN
10 knew and that that information was suppressed.
11 Q. Before we move on to the events after Srebrenica to see how your
12 views may have changed, just help me with this: You volunteered
13 yesterday, and you've put it in writing to be fair to you, that the late
14 Alija Izetbegovic was a war criminal.
15 A. Nazi war criminal.
16 Q. Nazi war criminal, yes. Well, now, it's true that at the age 18
17 he joined a group that sided with the Germans, but can you just tell us,
18 please, because I may have missed it, what was the actual war crime he
19 committed and that you were so willing to volunteer here? What was it
20 that he actually did?
21 A. As I recall, it was that he was an organiser for the youth
22 movement for the Bosnian Muslim fascist organisation that was helping to
23 recruit Bosnian Muslims for SS divisions.
24 Q. And at the -- well, he was part of a movement, and he served a
25 period of imprisonment.
1 A. That's what it did. That's what it did.
2 Q. I asked you a specific question: What was his war crime? Because
3 it's very easy to say these things, Mr. Lituchy, but you as a serious
4 historian would know how careful you have to be. What was the war crime
5 he committed?
6 A. That he was a collaborator with an organisation that was
7 recruiting people for the SS divisions in Bosnia.
8 Q. Now, at the same part of your evidence, before we move on to one
9 or two of the other things you've said, the same part of your evidence --
10 let's just see if I can find it -- you volunteered this, and this is -- I
11 have it on page 37200. Having dealt with his being an alleged convicted
12 war criminal and collaborator is how you described it, you went on to say
13 as a result of foreign forces, "These actors again played a role in the
14 persecution of national minorities in Yugoslavia in the 1990s."
15 Now, are you saying that the late President Izetbegovic persecuted
16 national minorities?
17 A. Within Bosnia?
18 Q. Well, what are you identifying as the "persecuted national
19 minorities," then, please?
20 A. Well, during his activities as a -- as a Nazi collaborator,
21 there's little doubt that that organisation was involved in the genocide
22 against Serbs, Jews, and Romas in Bosnia during World War II. As far as
23 later on in the 1990s --
24 Q. That wasn't actually an answer to the question, was it? You
25 volunteered that again, but carry on doing it if you think it's helpful.
1 Now, answer the question, please: Where did he persecute minorities in
2 this 1990s period?
3 A. During the 1990s, we can say that Izetbegovic was involved in
4 helping to ethnically cleanse parts of the population of Bosnia.
5 Q. Oh, really? That's it, is it?
6 A. Well, that's enough, I think.
7 Q. It doesn't occur to you, does it, Mr. Lituchy, that you may see
8 things through a somewhat extraordinary prism, that you hold very
9 one-sided views?
10 A. I don't think so.
11 Q. Don't you? Let's have a look at what you said in the 29th of
12 November 1995. Now, presumably you as a person with an interest in the
13 region had learnt about Srebrenica. Had you?
14 A. Sorry?
15 Q. Presumably you as a person interested in the region had learnt
16 about Srebrenica.
17 A. Yes, I remember when had happened.
18 Q. So that this article has to have in mind that you're now aware of
19 this. The detail of it wasn't necessarily known but the generality of it
20 was known, this most appalling event. Let's see what you then expressed
21 about the Dayton pact.
22 If we just go a little bit further down the page, please.
23 "The Dayton Pact --" third line -- "like the Munich Pact nearly 60
24 years ago, is not a peace agreement, but rather a prelude to further war.
25 The Dayton Pact signifies the unconditional surrender by the Bosnian Serb
1 leaders to the neocolonial powers of the West, led by the United States.
2 In one of the most obscene spectacles of fascist thuggery in modern times,
3 the Clinton regime has imposed its neocolonial political and military rule
4 over the destinies of some 20 million people in the Balkans by staging a
5 dubious international conference inside a military base in Ohio. It
6 represents one of the greatest setbacks to human rights since the Vietnam
8 Help us. Is this a paragraph that you're happy to live with?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And against which your position as a serious academic should be
12 A. I -- I certainly -- I certainly believe that the facts do prove
13 that the war -- the wars that occurred in Yugoslavia were unnecessary and
14 would not have occurred without the US determination to break up the
15 country, yes. There's no question about that.
16 Q. There's the terminology.
17 MR. NICE: Let's go on two pages, please, Mr. Prendergast.
18 THE WITNESS: But that wasn't your question.
19 MR. NICE:
20 Q. My question to you was - and if you want it again you're welcome
21 to it: Is this a view to which you hold and against which your position
22 as a serious academic should be measured?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. And you say it should be, should it?
25 A. And you said that that -- well, I won't quibble with you, but I've
1 made clear that that's the basis for my position then and now.
2 Q. Let's look at how you describe things two pages on. "There were
3 several important tactical objectives that had to be accomplished first
4 before the US could directly impose its political and economic jackboot on
5 the peoples of the Balkans. Among these, some are quite obvious: the
6 restoration of the fascistic movements among the Croatian and Bosnian
7 Muslim population calling for secession from Yugoslavia; the international
8 recognition of these fascistic secessionist movements and the destruction
9 of a unified socialist Yugoslav state; a policy of war against those who
10 were against this (the Serbs); the demonisation of the Serbs through a
11 media campaign launched by governments, public relations firms and human
12 rights organisations which staged 'atrocities' that never happened ..."
13 Now, you understand, Mr. Lituchy, we're examining you as a -- for
14 reliability, for integrity and objectivity. Can you tell us, please, what
15 were the staged atrocities that you had in mind so shortly after
17 A. Honestly, I don't remember exactly which ones I had in mind.
18 Q. Give us a collection then.
19 A. But I certainly can refer you to a couple that occurred after
20 this, including Racak.
21 Q. That's not going to be very much use, is it?
22 A. Well --
23 Q. Mr. Lituchy, please listen. You as a serious academic seeking to
24 influence - let's not beat about the bush - world events, assert following
25 the Dayton Peace Accord that you know many regarded as a good solution,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 you assert that there have been staged atrocities. Now, please, you wrote
2 it, you tell us what it meant.
3 A. Okay. I can recall one in particular. There was the article that
4 appeared in The New York Times about 50.000 rapes. That's one that
5 certainly strikes -- that I can recall that I must have had in mind. The
6 fact that this story of mass rapes was being bandied about and yet there
7 was very little evidence, if any at all, of any unusually high level of
8 rapes at all, in fact, compared to, say, in the United States in a normal
10 Q. English is your natural language. This is in English. False
11 account of rapes over a period of time is an allegation that can always be
12 made, but "staged atrocity" in the mouth of an educated academic --
13 A. I'm sure I have one. I'm sure I have one in mind.
14 Q. Well, please think about it.
15 A. I had one in mind but unfortunately at this moment I can't recall
16 exactly what I had in mind when I wrote that because I didn't come here to
17 testify because about my -- all of my writings. I can't remember every
18 single one of my writings.
19 Q. Any chance you were thinking about Srebrenica or something like
21 A. Oh, no.
22 Q. Very well. Let's read on. "... that never happened while
23 distorting the conflict; the imposition of UN --"
24 A. Excuse me, Mr. Nice. So that was what you were getting at, that
25 you suggest that I had said that Srebrenica was a staged atrocity? Do you
1 have evidence of that?
2 Q. I'll press on with questions. It's not for you to ask me
3 questions. You've been given an opportunity to explain your writings.
4 A. That's absurd.
5 Q. "... while distorting the conflict; the imposition of UN
6 sanctions and 'peacekeepers' as a military stalling tactic, to hold the
7 Serbs back militarily while the Croats and Muslims were covertly armed;
8 the corruption and splitting of the Serbian leadership, pitting the
9 Bosnian Serb leaders against the government in Belgrade by making phoney
10 deals with both sides; sending the CIA and Pentagon war machine into
11 Croatia and Bosnia to covertly train and arm the Croats and Muslims while
12 collecting intelligence on the Serbs ..." Just that sentence. Where did
13 you source there, so we can know?
14 A. I can recall that. I can recall that I sourced that first of all
15 in an article in the Independent about Clinton's armed -- I mean, you
16 know, we're really asking me particulars about articles that I wrote ten
17 -- about ten years ago, but I do remember this, as a matter of fact, that
18 there was an article in the Independent that I -- that I was referring to
19 in this -- in this line here, about arm shipments to the Muslims that
20 Clinton -- the Clinton administration had in fact coordinated secretly,
21 breaking the arms embargo, as a matter of fact. And this is prior to
22 Dayton, yes.
23 Q. Let's look at the next sentence and I'm done with this page and
24 I've only got one more article I'm going to have the time to ask you
25 about, I think, today. Let's look at the next sentence to the end of the
1 paragraph: "... the NATO bombing and the coordinated Croat and Muslim
2 offences and genocidal attacks on civilian populations."
3 A. Oh, I see.
4 Q. You're been very free with the use of the word "genocide" since
5 you've been here. Which of the genocidal attacks are you referring to
7 A. Mr. Nice, the -- the definition of crimes of genocide, as I
8 understand it, is that when a government or -- or army partakes in the
9 attempted destruction of a people, either in part or in full, by carrying
10 out certain actions against the civilian population, that that constitutes
11 a crime of genocide. There's no -- there's no question in my mind that
12 there were actual bombings of civilian targets in -- during the 1990s by
13 the Clinton administration. This was confirmed by every investigation,
14 every serious investigation that's been done on the subject, and therefore
15 it -- it constitutes if that -- it can be argued that a crime of genocide
16 was committed if the attempt was to destroy the Serbian civilian
17 population in either Bosnia or Serbia.
18 Q. Again, so that the Court can know where -- what your position is,
19 name us one of these -- and it must be intentionally, presumably, bombing
20 of a civilian target so we can just have it in mind.
21 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat that question.
22 Q. Of course. Can you name for us one of those civilian targets
23 subject to what must have been an intentional bombing.
24 A. In 1999 in -- during our delegation's --
25 Q. This is 1995, so we're looking at anything before 29th of
1 November, 1995, Mr. Lituchy.
2 A. What I read in the newspapers at that time when I -- prior to
3 writing this article, was that there were hospitals in Bosnia that --
4 civilian hospitals for Serbian people that were being bombed by NATO.
5 That's what I -- that's what I read at the time, and that was the basis of
6 my -- of my conclusion.
7 Q. Newspaper article, hospital bombing. Thank you. Last sentence:
8 "The final nail in the coffin was the complete surrender of the current
9 Serb leaderships in both Belgrade and Bosnia to the demands of US
11 So you thought the compromise made by the Serb leadership and RS
12 and also in Belgrade completely wrong, did you?
13 A. I don't think that any diplomatic agreement based on bombing can
14 be considered valid or legitimate.
15 Q. Let's go and see, for the last extract, which I think will help us
16 with an understanding of you, to this document of June 28, 1999. History
17 department at Kingsborough Community College, headed The American
18 Barbarism and the Big Lie Technique. And if we just go on, please, to
19 page 4 of 4, Mr. Prendergast, and see where you've summarised.
20 A. Where is this from? I don't believe I've seen this, but anyway...
21 Q. History department, Kingsborough --
22 A. No, no, this is not published by the history department.
23 Q. By whom is it published?
24 A. I have no idea, Mr. Nice. How would I know?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson?
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please receive this
3 document? I expected to get another one too.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you should have a copy.
5 THE WITNESS: Judge Robinson, may I ask a question?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, do you have copies for --
7 MR. NICE: Yes, I have copies for everybody --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please.
9 MR. NICE: Although, as I say, I'm quite happy to just have it on
10 the record, I'm neutral as to --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Put it on the ELMO.
12 Mr. Lituchy, what do you want to say?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Prior to this cross-examination, you directed
14 me not to answer questions that were not directly related to the facts
15 about which I've been called to testify --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, these questions go to your credibility.
17 THE WITNESS: As a witness?
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: I see.
20 MR. NICE:
21 Q. This document is headed American Barbarism and The Big Lie
22 Technique. The original location is set out there.
23 A. This is not published by the history department of --
24 Q. By whom was it published?
25 A. I have no idea. I actually don't know. I haven't seen this.
1 Q. It is attributed to you.
2 A. It may very well have been written by me but it certainly is not
3 published by who it says it's published by.
4 Q. Let's just check to see that --
5 A. I don't know who published this.
6 Q. Let's just check to see whether the first paragraph appears to be
7 your position. Let's go to the first paragraph. I hadn't intended to but
8 I will. "Is there anyone left who still leaves that Yugoslavia was
9 destroyed by 'ancient ethnic hatreds,' and not from without by Western -
10 particularly American - imperialism and covert action?" This would appear
11 to be your position, wouldn't it?
12 A. I agree with it, yes.
13 Q. Could we go to the fourth page of four and see what is attributed
14 to you and I'm going to ask you if you adopt this as your terminology.
15 Halfway down that first paragraph, we see this: "The defeat of the Serbs
16 leaves us all with a much more dangerous world." That's no doubt your
17 view. "It has fully exposed the dark, criminal nature of William
18 Jefferson Clinton - a rapist, a murderer, a gangster and a fascist - and
19 his entire government. But we should not compare Clinton to Hitler; it
20 does not do justice to the full range of Clinton's social pathology. He's
21 best compared to a Ted Bundy or a John Wayne Gacey ..." You'll see where
22 it ends.
23 If you go to the last paragraph on this page, this: "We must
24 promise ourselves to do better this time than after Jasenovac." We know
25 your interest in Jasenovac. It goes on: "We must promise ourselves that
1 there will be a reckoning for the crimes committed by American fascism,
2 and that there will be a punishment extracted - in blood if need be..."
3 These your words, Mr. Lituchy?
4 A. Anyone who is guilty of crimes of genocide, yes, of course. Of
5 course. This is -- if -- if these are the crimes committed, then someone
6 should be published for those crimes. I believe -- I'm not opposed to the
7 death penalty, Mr. Nice.
8 Q. Two things then: The description of Clinton and the comparison
9 between him and Hitler is one you still stand by, is it?
10 A. There are many -- there are many comparisons to be made, and the
11 fact that both Hitler and Clinton tried to divide a unified Yugoslav state
12 and did so by promoting proxy armies that included fascists among them,
13 yes, absolutely. This is -- this is a very clear analogy.
14 Q. Let's not beat about the bush. You're saying here in terms, so
15 that we can follow you, as the serious historian you are, you're saying
16 here that Clinton is worse than Hitler. Is that really your view?
17 A. I don't believe that Hitler was guilty of sexual crimes.
18 Q. That's your answer, is it?
19 A. That's my -- that's my answer, yes.
20 Q. Let's just conclude then with focusing again on the last paragraph
21 and indeed the last words that I read out. "We must promise ourselves
22 that there will be a reckoning for the crimes committed by American
23 fascism and that there will be a punishment extracted - in blood if need
24 be..." What were you seeking to achieve by publishing, saying,
25 broadcasting, whatever it was, that sort of observation?
1 A. First of all, I don't know who published this. I made that clear
2 before. I mean, stand by these words. I think I did write this. I don't
3 know actually who published it, but I do believe I did write it, yes. So
4 let's correct that point.
5 Q. What shedding of blood, did you, Mr. Lituchy --
6 A. Oh, I see, I see. I see what you're saying. I've already
7 answered that question. I explained to you that I believe that the death
8 penalty is appropriate in crimes of genocide.
9 Q. That's shedding of blood, is it? Forgive me, I know there are
10 various brutal ways of killing people effected in various States in the
11 United States of America but I'm not sure that any of them sheds blood.
12 Do correct me if I'm wrong.
13 A. That's more of a metaphor for the death penalty.
14 Q. Is it, or are you lying to us?
15 A. Lying?
16 Q. Because by shedding blood -- Yes, lying, Mr. Lituchy.
17 A. That's absurd.
18 Q. Because by "shedding blood" you meant something entirely different
19 from the death penalty.
20 A. That's absurd.
21 Q. Is it?
22 A. No, that's absurd. But I will add this, I will add this: That
23 people deserve to be defended against crimes of genocide that they -- and
24 that may entail the shedding of blood, yes, absolutely.
25 Q. Let's have it: Is it the death penalty or is it the shedding of
2 A. Both.
3 Q. Both. Very well. What shedding of blood did you envisage in 1999
4 - I have the date again - as being justified, assuming that the date --
5 A. Defending people from crimes of genocide just precisely as the
6 crimes that I've documented here with the Romas and other refugees from
8 Q. Do you realise the significance of the date, don't you?
9 A. What is the date? I didn't see it.
10 Q. This is -- the date this is June the 28th 1999. So that's just --
11 A. I don't recall -- I don't think that date is valid or is accurate.
12 I'm not sure when the date of this piece is because I didn't publish it,
13 but I do believe I -- somehow someone got a hold of this. I may have
14 written this, or I -- I'm really not sure. I don't know where this comes
15 from. You never told me where you got this from.
16 Q. Mr. Lituchy, we can only do our best with the Internet and we
17 can --
18 A. Is the Internet a reliable source? I think I'm more reliable than
19 the Internet. I'm here.
20 Q. Mr. Lituchy, you confirmed that the Internet is reliable because
21 you confirmed that these are your words and we took it off it. We can
22 only as to the date of the publication what the Internet provides.
23 A. The description is false.
24 Q. You --
25 A. The description is straight out false, so this is not valid. It
1 was not published by any -- by the history department of Kingsborough
2 College, so that's not accurate.
3 Q. Can you give us --
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Lituchy, do you have anything to do with the
5 Communist Party of Australia?
6 THE WITNESS: That's a very good question Judge Kwon. That's a
7 very good question. I don't even know -- I don't even know anything about
8 the Communist Party of Australia.
9 JUDGE KWON: The address at the bottom of the page says that it
10 seems to be related to that institution.
11 THE WITNESS: I really don't know. I -- I -- I've never even
12 heard of the Communist Party of Australia. I assume there may very well
13 be one but I don't they anything about it. I don't know the first thing
14 about it, the Communist Party of Australia.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 MR. NICE:
17 Q. Can I turn now to the reliability of your interviews? First of
18 all, and I deal with this swiftly and compendiously, the document that we
19 have before us and as -- I'm not sure what decision the Court has made but
20 I'm focusing on pages 1 to 45 and 127 until the end of tab 1 because it
21 seems to me that the other part hadn't been spoken to and tab 2 has been
22 expressly not produced.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's an accurate representation.
24 MR. NICE: I'm grateful.
25 Q. You had no investigator and no particular investigative skills.
1 How did you choose your interpreter?
2 A. We asked for -- we -- I don't recall exactly how we found her but
3 we -- through my contacts in Belgrade I asked for an interpreter for these
4 interviews. That's the best I can remember as far as that's concerned. I
5 believe it was through one of my colleagues in Belgrade.
6 Q. Did it occur to you that the interpreter might herself, as it
7 turned out to be, have views and interpose her judgement between question
8 and answer?
9 A. That was -- that -- I agree that was, regrettably, something we
10 couldn't quite control. We tried to stop her from doing that but we
11 didn't want -- we didn't want her to do that.
12 Q. So do you accept, do you, in the way that I think His Honour Judge
13 Robinson observed, it was clear she wasn't doing straight translation
14 because she -- she leapt in before questions were completed and sometimes
15 gave very short answers where there had been a great deal of speech from
16 the person being spoken to.
17 A. I believe that the translations were a fair and accurate
18 representation of what people were saying, but it is also true -- you see
19 it doesn't have to be either/or, Mr. Nice. It can be -- it's both. It's
20 both the fact that the translations were accurate and fair representations
21 of what people were saying and also that she interposed things that she
22 had no right and no business interposing, and it was very annoying to me.
23 Q. I asked you if this was the serious work of scholarship, as it
24 were -- I didn't use the word "scholarship." You confirmed that it was
25 serious work. If you knew certainly before coming to this court that what
1 she had said was not free of her own intervention, why did you not arrange
2 for the transcript to be properly transcribed by an independent -- sorry,
3 why did you not arrange for the tape to be properly transcribed by an
4 independent and neutral interpreter?
5 A. Actually I didn't know that I was going to be -- I didn't make
6 this transcript for this Court, but I did -- had I been more aware of when
7 I was going to -- if I was going to testify, when I was going to be --
8 when I was going to testify -- I didn't have the time or the resources at
9 the time to -- to do that. But yes, I absolutely did want to do that and
10 I think it -- it was certainly on my agenda to do, yes.
11 Q. In the event, and unless the matter had been drawn to the Court's
12 attention, both by the accused and by me, this transcript would have gone
13 in without correction, wouldn't it?
14 A. No, that's not true.
15 Q. Did you draw to our attention that it was false?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When?
18 A. Oh, I thought you said would I have. Yes, I would have.
19 Q. No, did you?
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 Q. Well, why not?
22 A. Because it was already -- it was brought up immediately by
23 President Milosevic before.
24 Q. Coincidentally while you use the term "President Milosevic," it
25 reminds me: I've only been able to research so much of your material from
1 open sources, and I may have missed it, but your Serb -- your personal
2 Serbian background isn't referred to in any of your public writings?
3 A. That's because I'm not a Serbian nationalist.
4 Q. Do you not think when seeking to change world events by expression
5 of opinions in the way that you do that it might have been preferable and
6 fairer to reveal that you have a Serb historical connection?
7 A. No, I don't think that that's necessary. I don't think -- I don't
8 think one has to identify what one's national -- one's ancestors are. The
9 human race originated in Africa. We're all Africans too. I mean, we
10 can't -- it would be extremely unfair and it's not -- it's certainly no
11 scientific requirement that one identify one's ethnic heritage in any kind
12 of writing or research. I've never heard of such a -- such an idea before
13 actually. This is -- this is --
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Lituchy, how far back does your Serb
15 ancestry go?
16 THE WITNESS: I'm a native-born US citizens. My parents are
17 native-born US citizens. Two of my grandparents are of Serbian
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks. Thank you.
20 Mr. Milosevic, you had wanted to say something?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I wanted to put Mr. Nice
22 right. He said that you drew attention to the problem with the
23 translation in the transcript. I drew attention to the translation, the
24 problems with the translation, and precisely that was the reason that I
25 emphasised that the exhibit I'm tendering is the tape and not the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 transcript, which has serious defects. And I'm sure you'll be able to
2 find that passage in the transcript of my having said that.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I give you full credit for that, Mr. Milosevic.
4 What Mr. Nice attributed to me was also accurate.
5 Mr. Nice, we have to take a break now, and we'll adjourn for 20
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask a question for technical
8 reasons? Is Mr. Nice going to finish before the end of business today so
9 that I can know for my next witness?
10 MR. NICE: The next session is how long?
11 JUDGE KWON: Seventy minutes.
12 MR. NICE: Seventy minutes. I would certainly hope to finish
13 before the next session. I know the topics I have to deal with. There
14 are only about two in the nature of things because amongst other things I
15 want to point you to some of the shortcomings of the transcript. It will
16 be closer to the end of the next session.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Twenty minutes.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.54 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice to continue.
21 MR. NICE: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Lituchy, we'll go through your document in broad fashion,
23 please, just to remind ourselves what it amounts to. Pages 2, 3, 4, 5,
24 and 6 there is preface we haven't focused on that, I'm not going to
25 trouble you with it. Page 8 is a press release. Again, I'm not
1 interested in that. Page 9 and in between pages 9 and 13 we have an
2 interview with Bratislava Morina. Now as a matter of history, Bratislava
3 Morina is the wife, or was the wife, now widow of Rrahman Morina, who
4 replaced Vllasi when he was forced out of office, didn't she? Didn't he,
6 A. Are you asking me?
7 Q. Yes, I am.
8 A. Oh, yes.
9 Q. And her husband, or her late husband, was indeed a fully loyal
10 supporter of this accused and indeed -- well, yes or no.
11 A. Yes, yes, of course.
12 Q. And was brought in to replace Vllasi when Vllasi's independence of
13 mind was troublesome, yes?
14 A. Well, that part I don't know.
15 Q. Because this is not a woman I've been able to make any contact
16 with, I'm not going to ask you any questions about the content of what she
17 says because I can't deal with it save just for this: You say that you
18 had no cooperation with or assistance, I think, by ministry bodies or by
19 Serb bodies in your inquiry, but if you go to page 12, please --
20 A. No, no, wait a second. You're misrepresenting what I said.
21 Q. In which case, if I'm misunderstanding it, you must put us right,
22 because it's quite clear from page 12, in the middle of the page, that the
23 Ministry of Foreign Affairs is entirely at your disposal, isn't it?
24 A. I was referring to the interviews of refugees. That's precisely
25 what I was talking about, that's what I was questioning about. We did not
1 receive any help from the government in that regard, no. But as far as
2 other -- yes, we did have some, we did have assistance as far as some of
3 the other interviews, but not with the refugees, no.
4 Q. And indeed when -- if we look on the same page, page 12 a little
5 further down, "Lituchy: I think we would like to visit a refugee camp, if
6 that's possible, particularly a refugee camp that was hit by NATO
7 bombing." That was something, what, that the Foreign Ministry or Ministry
8 of Refugees --
9 A. They didn't organise it.
10 Q. They didn't?
11 A. No.
12 Q. But they were prepared to do anything they could to help you?
13 A. I don't know if I'd agree with that but because they didn't help
14 us as far as the refugees were concerned. I mean, it's true -- I mean, I
15 don't want to -- with all respect to Mrs. Morina, I don't -- you know, I
16 -- but still we didn't get any help as far as interviewing the refugees,
17 no. That's definite.
18 Q. You were known, however, wherever you went as being an
19 investigation that was against NATO; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And associated with the then Serb government; correct?
22 A. No. Not necessarily, no. That's not necessarily true.
23 Q. To be against NATO would be to be siding, in a simple analysis of
24 events, with the Serb government, wouldn't it?
25 A. Well, the problem is that that's too simple, yes, you're right.
1 It's a simplification of -- I mean, it's very possible to be opposed to
2 the NATO bombing and still not be in support of President Milosevic. In
3 fact, many of -- there were many people in our delegation who had that
5 Q. As a historian, you know that sources and -- sources are critical
6 to the work of a historian?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And if -- if you have two sources, one better than another, you go
9 to the best --
10 A. Right.
11 Q. -- not to the second best. If something is to your knowledge in
12 need of checking, you check it.
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Although it remains a fact that this record was something you knew
15 needed checking but never was checked.
16 A. Which record are you --
17 Q. The record of interviews that we're going to look at. You knew it
18 needed checking because you knew that the interpreter was not doing the
19 job of interpreting faithfully and yet you didn't actually check what was
20 on the transcription, did you?
21 A. Right, well, there's a reason, there's an explanation for that.
22 What happened was that the transcript -- the transcription was done by a
23 colleague of mine in Ohio who also had a translator helping him to improve
24 the translation. I thought perhaps all of these problems would be worked
25 out. They weren't, and shortly after that I became -- I was very ill for
1 a period of about three years, actually, after this took place, so I was
2 unable really to devote any time at all. I -- I -- I was undergoing
3 chemotherapy and I was very sick. I couldn't -- I had no time for this
4 during the three years after that.
5 Q. Well, when did you first then become aware that the problems
6 hadn't been sorted?
7 A. When exactly? Well, I certainly knew that the original
8 translation needed to be improved. So I -- in that regard, I can -- I can
9 tell you that I knew from the beginning that we needed a better, a
10 complete and improved translation. However, as I've said all along, I
11 still maintain that this transcript fairly represents the content of these
13 Q. I'm not sure how you can do that, you see, because you realised it
14 was in need of correction, it was dealt with by a colleague of yours and
15 another translator --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you think that he'd corrected all the problems?
18 A. I thought he corrected 99 per cent of the problems at the time.
19 Q. How did you know he hadn't done a completely satisfactory job?
20 A. Well, I did find -- I did find one or two things after I published
21 it, yes.
22 Q. What is that, because you speak Serbian?
23 A. I do speak and understand -- read some Serbian, yes.
24 Q. So you've actually listened to the tapes?
25 A. Of course.
1 Q. Since your unfortunate ill health and treatment and coming here to
2 give evidence, and you knew that the tape and the transcript were not
3 accurate reflections one of the other.
4 A. Mr. Nice, you realise that the -- from the very beginning our main
5 purpose was to conduct the interviews and do so on video and thereby
6 preserving the full integrity of those interviews on videotape, and
7 therefore it was always possible -- I suppose I'm guilty of not showing a
8 sufficient amount of -- of speed and -- and effort in -- in providing a
9 better transcript. I should say that there were only 200 copies of this
10 report published in 2000, and it was by no means meant for a broad --
11 Q. I want to cut you short because I want to finish my
12 cross-examination in under 50 per cent of the time.
13 A. I hope I answered your question.
14 Q. I don't think you did. I simply said to you -- this Court is
15 dealing with very serious matters and I said to you you came here knowing
16 that the tape and the transcript were not accurate reflections one of the
18 A. The tape. The tape is accurate. The videotape is accurate.
19 Q. I shan't take any more time on that. Pages 15 --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, the inaccuracy relates to the
21 transcript, the translation, not the tape.
22 MR. NICE: The translation of the transcript, absolutely correct.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
24 MR. NICE:
25 Q. If we look between pages 15 and 27 -- 28, beg your pardon, we'll
1 find something that relates, I think, all to people leaving after the
2 bombing, with refugees -- beg your pardon, this relates to refugees in
3 Serbia and their condition, and I'm not going to focus on that at all.
4 So if we can go to page 30. Now, these refugees, Mr. Lituchy, you
5 would accept are going to be either extremely difficult or impossible for
6 me to find in the short period of time that I've had your documents?
7 A. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question.
8 Q. You made no efforts to contact them before allowing their answers
9 to be given as in evidence this case, did you?
10 A. Of course not.
11 Q. You know perfectly well, if they were refugees, that tracking them
12 down with little more than one name or sometimes a couple of names and a
13 former address is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Don't you?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. I see. As to these pages, I remind you of an answer you gave I
18 think to His Honour Judge Robinson but it may have been elsewhere, where
19 the word KLA was not on the tape but was on the transcript. Do you
20 remember that? And you said, well, it doesn't really much matter because
21 the implication was that the KLA were the people involved.
22 A. In the context of the answer to my question, the Roma refugee made
23 it clear that they were armed Albanians.
24 Q. Well, and "armed Albanians," therefore, can be transliterated, for
25 convenience of reading, to "KLA"?
1 A. I'm not claim -- I did not do that but it's -- as far as I know,
3 Q. If the document before the Court is to be reliable, such errors
4 ought to have been corrected, oughtn't they?
5 A. Well, that's why I brought the videotape as well.
6 Q. So that if we now look at -- if we look on page 30 we've got
7 Nenezu, Abazi, and then on page 31 we've already looked at the one
8 reference at the top where I'm suggesting to you that the word KLA was
9 never mentioned, line 3. Halfway down the page in the answers of Tefiq I
10 understand that the word again "KLA" has simply been added to the text.
11 Inexcusable really, isn't it? It's your report, but it's inexcusable.
12 A. I can't comment on that. I don't know what the answer to that is.
13 Q. Mr. Lituchy, you're a historian. You tell us you're a serious
14 historian. You've confirmed that the sources have to be checked, you've
15 confirmed that this needed to be checked and wasn't checked. It's your
16 discipline. If you present a report about things done by the KLA
17 purporting to be a transcript of what people say knowing that that
18 material is being given in evidence, it is inexcusable not to correct an
19 error of the kind I've described.
20 A. Are you asking me a question or making a statement?
21 Q. I certainly am asking you a question.
22 A. It's not inexcusable because I brought the videotape which is the
23 full interview in its entirety, and that -- if -- if I was trying to
24 dissemble or trying to distort anything, I certainly would not have done
25 -- I would not have brought the original with me and presented that.
1 That's -- that's the basis of my interviews. That's what we intended to
2 do and that's -- that should be looked upon as the most important
4 Q. These witnesses -- not these witnesses, these people being
5 interviewed were found for you by --
6 A. No, no.
7 Q. Well --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't hear -- what's the question? I didn't
9 hear the --
10 MR. NICE: People interviewed were found for him, but he denies
12 THE WITNESS: We were brought to a place where refugees -- are you
13 talking about the Romas and Egyptians? You're talking about Egyptians and
14 Romas, is that right?
15 Q. This part of your report, yes.
16 A. Yes, that's what I thought. No. This is an area in which
17 refugees were living. This was an area that had already, prior to the
18 time of the refugee crisis, had been a place where Romas and Egyptians
19 were living, and so this is where the refugees fled to. Now, as you -- if
20 you look at the -- if you look at the original tapes or CDs, whatever you
21 have, you can see for yourself that people came. They were -- they came,
22 they heard perhaps secondhand or thirdhand, that people were -- that
23 people from other countries were there to interview refugees and so they
24 showed -- they stepped forward. They stepped forward on their own.
25 Q. At this page, page 32 of your transcript, we'll find, will we not
1 when we see the original properly and fully translated, that your
2 interpreter was gathering people out of the crowd or gathering people and
3 calling them forward to come and speak to you. Is that the role she took?
4 A. No. That's not a fair representation. Where do you see that?
5 Q. It's not in the transcript, it's on the tape.
6 A. It's on the tape. No, I don't think that's a fair representation
7 of what she was doing, no.
8 Q. Then we move on to page 35, please, very quickly, and you'll see a
9 third of the way down the page -- and if there's a spare copy I'm happy
10 for Mr. Prendergast to lay it on the overhead projector if it makes it
11 more interesting for those viewing but not to delay us. We see a third of
12 the way down the page, "The children awake at night calling 'mama, mama.'
13 I have nothing to give them. They are afraid of aeroplanes." Aeroplane
14 is pretty important, isn't it?
15 A. Would you show me where that is.
16 Q. A third of way down page 35.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you sure it's 35?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see it.
19 MR. NICE:
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. And what is your question?
22 Q. Reference to aeroplanes is important, isn't it, because aeroplanes
23 connect it to NATO.
24 A. I don't think that's specifically important.
25 Q. Don't you?
1 A. No, I think --
2 Q. Why was it added then to what the person said, because as I
3 understand it, and I'm dependent --
4 A. The purpose --
5 Q. Please listen to me. -- unhappily so, on Ms. Kisic, who has given
6 up her weekend to listen to the tapes and attempt to help me. The words
7 "aeroplane" doesn't feature on the original tape. To add "aeroplanes"
8 would be inexcusable, wouldn't it?
9 A. The question, as I understand it, was is that necessary -- is
10 that very important to the -- as I recall that's what you asked me: Is
11 this very important to this testimony? No, it's not, because I'll tell
12 you why -- what this is about. This is about how these children, the Roma
13 children, were being persecuted. This is the -- this is the extent of the
14 horrible nature of crimes, is that children were being killed, children
15 were being raped, and children were being persecuted. Children.
16 Q. Page 37, please. Third line down, one of your colleagues, I
17 think: "Why do you think they were doing this?" Answer from Berisha now:
18 "The Albanian soldiers did that to us because we support Serbia and we
19 oppose secession." Well, which bit of that last six words is important?
20 "We support Serbia" or "We oppose secession"? Is it one bit that's
21 important or both?
22 A. It -- it is important because -- I'm not sure -- you may be trying
23 to say that this is not in the tape, and I'm not sure about that right off
24 the top of my head. No, I don't know.
25 Q. You're quite right I'm going to suggest that one bit of it isn't
1 in the tape, but I want you to tell me which bits are important. Serbia
2 or secession is important?
3 A. Both.
4 Q. Well, then why did somebody add the words "we oppose secession"
5 when those words were never there?
6 A. I don't know. That I can't tell you.
7 Q. Was this remotely a serious minded work of scholarship or research
8 or was this political material?
9 A. No. It is -- it is important because we wanted to know what the
10 relationship of the Romas was and -- was to the Yugoslav government. That
11 was -- that was -- and so when Romas did tell us that they served in the
12 Yugoslav military or if they supported the Yugoslavia, if they considered
13 that to be their state and they considered it to be defending them prior
14 to the bombing, then it was -- yes, then it would be important. If that's
15 an error, I -- I deeply regret that that's -- that that's there if that's
16 in error, but I don't think that that in any way compromises the entirety
17 of the interviews.
18 Q. Look down the page, please. About seven lines up from the bottom.
19 Rakipi: "On June 26 we left Kosovo after the KLA forced us from our
20 home." I'm going suggest to you that the word "KLA" doesn't feature
21 there. And similarly, if we go to page 38, please, about 12 lines down,
22 in the answer of Eles or Elis: "I left Kosovo on June the 26th. After I
23 left Kosovo, KLA soldiers took everything." Again the words "KLA" were
24 not included.
25 That's the sort of error I think that you accept, with your
1 recollection, happened, don't you? "KLA" was inserted where "KLA" was not
3 A. I don't know the answer to that question.
4 Q. Well, if we move on to --
5 MR. NICE: And I'm not doing all points, Your Honours, just a few
6 of them.
7 Q. If we move on to page 44 so that we can have in advance of the
8 translation some understanding of how these interviews were conducted. If
9 we look down the page about seven lines to your answer, "Thank you and we
10 wish you the best," had you, although it's not included on the transcript,
11 asked for someone who had had a family member killed and who had witnessed
12 that to come forward and speak and then --
13 A. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.
14 Q. Very well. Then we go on to page 47, and as I've already
15 indicated between 47 and 126 there's been no evidence given and I forecast
16 we won't be dealing with them.
17 We then come to 127 where the interviewees were in the basement of
18 the hotel and where may have been afforded protective measures so that
19 their names mustn't be given. We're calling them really 1, 2 and 3,
20 Albanians 1, 2, and 3. And at page 127 we are on Albanian number 1.
21 Before I look at these to the extent that I must, help me with this:
22 Remember I said if you have a source of information that is good but not
23 necessarily the best, the appropriate course for a historian is to go to
24 the best, and you accepted that, didn't you?
25 A. Yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. This morning you knew something before the accused mentioned it or
2 before it was discussed in court of what had been said on the last
3 occasion about contacts made by someone on my behalf with Albanian number
4 3. How did you learn about that, about what had passed in court
5 concerning my inquiries or inquiries conducted on my behalf for Albanian
6 number 3?
7 A. Your Honours, I never -- I didn't know. I don't know what you're
8 talking about.
9 Q. The process whereby an investigator had spoken to Albanian number
10 3, are you saying you knew nothing of that?
11 A. Well, I heard you said -- say -- that much I heard you say in
12 court when I was here last week. That I heard, yes.
13 Q. And you had no other knowledge of that?
14 A. No other knowledge. Of course not.
15 Q. Very well, I don't have time to check the actual transcript of
16 what you said.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Bear in mind the Prosecutor
19 is not pursuing that. He's not pursuing that, so there's no need to
20 address it.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 MR. NICE:
23 Q. On page 127, then, we're with Albanian number 1. Halfway down the
24 page you asked: "Did this political party run in the previous elections
1 MR. NICE: And, Your Honours, unless I am advised otherwise, it
2 doesn't seem to me necessary to go into closed session to read out the
3 answer. In any event, the Chamber will remember that I had achieved some
4 contact with this individual last week. I propose to read the answer.
5 Q. The answer says this: "No, this is a new political party, formed
6 only last year, so we haven't yet run in elections. This was the one, the
7 only Albanian party to stand by the government, and our political position
8 was for Kosovo and Metohija to stay in Yugoslavia and to organise
9 humanitarian aid for people, and to oppose secession."
10 Now, can you explain to me why, if it's the case, that answer is
11 completely incorrectly transcribed in two ways? First, no reference of
12 "opposing secession," and secondly, what was actually said on the tape
13 was that it was the only political party to stay with the people during
14 the NATO airstrikes, saying nothing whatsoever about standing by the
16 Can you explain to me, please, if this is a serious work of
17 scholarship, why there should be -- or research, why there should be those
18 two errors?
19 A. I can't -- I can't explain it.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, as far as I remember, the interpreter in
21 the film said it was "President Milosevic" instead of "the government."
22 So "Albanian party to stand by President Milosevic."
23 JUDGE BONOMY: I must say that I've noted that also, Mr. Nice.
24 JUDGE KWON: I'd like -- I wanted to ask the witness why it was
1 MR. NICE: Can I just check? The reference to Milosevic, I hadn't
3 [Prosecution confer]
4 MR. NICE: Different conscientious ears pick up different things
5 but I'm not going to challenge that what Your Honours heard may have been
6 different qualities of sound,, and that would also need explaining. So
7 perhaps should I ask the question or would Your Honour prefer to?
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.
9 MR. NICE:
10 Q. Mr. Lituchy, one of two possibilities is that there was no
11 reference to either government or President Milosevic, and the other is
12 that there is a reference to Milosevic, all of which mistranslated as
13 standing by the government. Can you explain why those changes would have
14 been made, either of them?
15 A. No, I can't, but if it does say they're supporting President
16 Milosevic, that is in essence the same thing as supporting the government
17 in this regard. In this case, anyway.
18 MR. NICE: With Your Honours' leave, I'll move on.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 MR. NICE:
21 Q. Now if we look at page 128, and to remind everybody this is the
22 meeting in the basement of the hotel with people sat on a table and, as
23 you've told us, lots of people there -- or not lots of people, other
24 people there. Last line on page 128, and it shouldn't go on the overhead
25 protector, sorry, take it away. The questioner asks how many people were
1 forced out by the KLA, and an answer is given of 150.000 Albanians. But
2 in fact if one listens to the tape, somebody in the group of others
3 volunteered the number. Isn't that right? And then maybe the person
4 being interviewed gave it himself.
5 A. Mr. Nice, I think the correct thing to do is look at the tape. If
6 you want -- if you want to get to the truth, that's what you have to do
7 and that's why I brought the tapes.
8 Q. Remember I asked you questions about the advantages of
9 interviewing people singly and you explained the advantage of having
10 people in -- other people there? You were there.
11 A. Yes, that's true.
12 Q. Was the rigor of the interview process such that if somebody from
13 the crowd, as it were, or from the other people there, said 150.000, the
14 person being interviewed would say, okay, 150.000. Is that actually what
15 was going on?
16 A. No, no. This -- this would be a mistake from the transcription
17 from the tape, if that is indeed a mistake.
18 Q. You understand the suggestion.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The suggestion is that this information is volunteered by someone
21 else and it's then perhaps picked up by the person being interviewed, put
22 in the answer, but of course it doesn't come from him, it comes from the
23 crowd. Is that the rigor of your interviewing process made real?
24 A. No, no. You're conflating what happened in the transcription with
25 the process of the interview, which is -- which is really a distortion.
1 You're distorting -- you're distorting the truth. That's not what
2 happened. I did not -- I did not say this is -- this is the answer.
3 Someone in the crowd says something, that's the answer. This is something
4 that happened from -- this is why we have the videotape here in this
6 Q. Let's go on to page 132. It is Albanian number 2. And halfway
7 down the page again: "Lituchy: Were you threatened by anyone in Kosovo?
8 "Ismali: Yes, because I supported --" says Yugoslavia -- "and I
9 opposed secession." Again I'm going to suggest to you that the reference
10 to secession is simply not there on the sound track. Do you allow for the
11 possibility that whoever is responsible for the transcript has been adding
12 little answers about secession, opposition to secession, regularly?
13 A. Do I allow that -- about something that I -- some hypothesis. I
14 guess I have to allow for a hypothesis, yes.
15 Q. No, you're in a slightly better position than a hypothesis. It's
16 your tape, you've listened to it, and you speak Serbian. So tell us,
17 because we're going to eventually have a transcript, do you allow for the
18 possibility that in the overall process for which you are responsible
19 references to secession were added to what was said by witnesses -- not
20 witnesses --
21 A. Do I allow for that possibility? It's -- if it's -- if that's
22 what happened, I guess I have to allow for it. I mean, you're -- you're
23 asking me questions about -- the answers to which I'm not sure.
24 Q. Two more of these and then I think I'm done on this topic. When
25 we come to page 138, we're on Witness number -- not witness, Albanian
1 number 3. Perhaps we ought to look at -- perhaps you could look at page
2 130 -- 133 first, where we're still on Albanian number 2. And there's --
3 in the middle of the page there's a question, "Under what conditions do
4 you think you might be able to return to Kosovo?" And the answer given
5 is: "If our army and police return to Kosovo, we'll go the same day."
6 Now, if the man actually said as recorded, "When it's safe to live
7 there and work there, I'll go," can you explain why the reference to the
8 army and the police has been added?
9 A. I thought he did say that, but we'll see.
10 Q. Page 134, towards the foot of the page, and now we are with
11 Albanian number 3. Albanian number 3 was described as a traitor, and we
12 know, indeed the accused confirmed it himself, that it was the word
13 "tradesman." Can you explain how the word "traitor" could have been
14 typed in there?
15 A. Yes, I can.
16 Q. Very well.
17 A. Since it was brought up last week, I thought about it and I think
18 that what must have happened, and this again must have been a problem in
19 the -- either in the translation during the interview or during the
20 translation during the transcription, that the transcriber heard the word
21 "traitor" and it was "trader" and not "traitor," and misheard, misheard.
22 Now, that's -- that's my guess. That's my best guess since I didn't do
23 the transcription.
24 Q. Let's go up three or four lines to the third line of this answer,
25 where it says: "Until the NATO bombing, I loved and sympathised with
1 democracy in the United States."
2 A. What page is that?
3 Q. Same page, just three lines up. Four or five lines up. "Until
4 the NATO bombing, I loved and sympathised with democracy ..." If the tape
5 can only be heard -- reveals his saying, "Until recently I loved and
6 sympathised with democracy in the United States ..." any reason why it
7 should have been changed to "until the NATO bombing"?
8 A. I don't -- I don't know the answer to that question.
9 Q. And finally, please, page 135, still with Albanian number 3. If
10 we look halfway down the page at this: "Do you know what torture methods
11 the KLA use?" Albanian number 3 replies, "What more do you want? They're
12 killing people. They killed them by strangulation and by torture." Could
13 there be any reason for adding those words "they killed them by
14 strangulation and by torture" when the words weren't said at all?
15 A. I do recall -- I do recall remembering that that was a mistake.
16 Q. You recall that that was a mistake?
17 A. Now I do because I just looked at the -- I just looked at the --
18 no, just the addition. I remember him saying what more do you not want
19 that they're killing people, but I recall just -- which was listening to
20 the tapes in the hotel last week looking at them that it was -- that that
21 was there.
22 Q. You mean the mistake was there?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. I mean, these are very dramatic words. "Killing people by
25 strangulation and torture." Did you really not think you owed any duty to
1 correct the material being presented to this court?
2 A. Of course I owed a duty to correct the material.
3 Q. Why didn't you present it?
4 A. I present the tapes which have the original--
5 Q. Oh, come, come, Mr. Lituchy. You saw the muddle we got into with
6 the tapes. You knew that this printed document was being presented.
7 A. There shouldn't have been any muddle with the tapes. The tapes
8 are in good condition. They do appear to be in much worse condition than
9 as I brought them here.
10 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that this document not just for
11 reasons of its method of preparation is an unreliable document and that
12 your answers today show that. It's nothing like the sort of material you
13 as an historian should be relying on, is it? It's flawed, isn't it?
14 A. It has flaws, but it correct -- I think it -- I think it
15 accurately presents for the most part what these refugees had to say.
16 Q. Now I'm going to turn to the other shortcomings of your interview
17 and I want to suggest to you that what you're now going to see is a proper
18 exercise of research if viewed objectively. Do you follow me?
19 A. I heard you.
20 Q. The documents concerned are the subject of protective measures so
21 we can't put them on the overhead projector but with the Court's leave
22 I'll deal with this in public session because I think it's appropriate
23 that can, and that I should. And I'm going to ask the witness to have
24 before him two documents, one a statement of Mr. Sutch, and if he has that
25 one first.
1 You would accept, wouldn't you Mr. Lituchy, that secondhand
2 evidence, that is evidence of A saying what B said is often not as good as
3 first-hand evidence, what B said himself?
4 A. Of course.
5 Q. So that here what you have is the witness statement of the
6 investigator who contacted Albanian number 3. I'm not going to take you
7 through all of it but I am going to take you to just one passage. If you
8 look down towards the end of the first page you will see a paragraph that
9 begins, and we don't use the name of the person, "... stated that
10 invariably that," Albanian number 1 --
11 A. Sorry, which paragraph is this?
12 Q. It's the foot of the first page. So we're going to use code. So
13 Albanian number 3 stated that another person was present in the
14 interviews: "As well as plainclothes Serbian Interior Ministry police
15 officers. He does not recall police being present at the Hotel Prague
16 interview. He believes that he was identified as an interview
17 subject ..." and so on.
18 Now, if you read those two lines together carefully, they coming
19 from an interview conducted over the telephone with an interpreter, there
20 is some ambiguity in there, isn't there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There was presence of police officers but he doesn't recall them
23 being present in the Hotel Prague. Would you accept that the appropriate
24 thing to do, if possible, is go and take a statement, find out exactly
25 what the person meant to say?
1 A. Well, I think that's fine, but this is not true.
2 Q. Very well. Let's now look at the next statement, if you would be
3 so good, remembering again that we aren't going to identify the person at
4 all. It's now in numbered paragraphs and as you can see from the name at
5 the bottom --
6 JUDGE KWON: Can we have it?
7 MR. NICE: It's coming to the Chamber immediately.
8 Q. And you can see, incidentally, that the date of the statement was
9 the 13th of March. You can see that it is an interview if you look at the
10 details with the place of the interview, the interviewer, the interpreter
11 identified. A one-to-one interview subject to the necessary presence of
12 interpreters. And without going through all of it, the person
13 interviewed, Albanian number 3, explains this: "On the 28th of June,
14 1999, the building was stormed by many Kosovo Albanians and at the same
15 time British NATO troops entered the premises ... The situation became
16 chaotic and I, together with --" I won't read that out -- "left with the
17 assistance of others. That day I travelled to Belgrade where I remained
18 until the end of August 1999," and then refers to the circumstances of
19 return and family matters.
20 Paragraph 4 sets out his own employment history. Paragraph 5: "I
21 recall taking part in many interviews during the period in Belgrade, but I
22 am unable to remember all of them individually. The interviews concerned
23 NATO aggression and its consequences, why Kosovo Albanians were leaving
24 the region of Kosovo and support of the Milosevic policy on Kosovo. I do
25 not know who the interviews were arranged by, but I was aware that they
1 were conducted with the approval of the Belgrade authorities probably for
2 propaganda purposes."
3 Well, of course your interviews in Belgrade at that time were
4 conducted with the approval of Belgrade authorities, weren't they?
5 A. Not these interviews.
6 Q. Weren't they?
7 A. No.
8 Q. What about the cooperation you had with the ministry?
9 A. Which ministry?
10 Q. The ministry we've been looking at.
11 A. The refugee -- Ministry for Refugees?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. They did not organise these interviews, Mr. Nice. I'm sorry.
14 Q. Very well.
15 A. I'm very sorry, but this statement is not truthful. It's not
17 Q. Not accurate or not truthful?
18 A. Well, it's not accurate. I'm not -- he does say that -- he does
19 say here in the statement, if I can get back to that --
20 Q. We're sticking with this statement?
21 A. Yes, right, right.
22 Q. And we're going to see exactly what he says?
23 A. He says: "I do not know who the interviews were arranged by but I
24 was aware that they were conducted with the approval of the Belgrade
25 authorities and probably for propaganda purposes."
1 Q. You want to say that that's --
2 A. That -- that can't be -- that's not accurate, and I wonder whether
3 that's actually -- if that's maybe under duress.
4 Q. And against whom would you like to assert duress, Mr. Lituchy?
5 A. I'm not asserting -- I'm not asserting anything.
6 Q. But you just have. You said you wonder if it's under duress.
7 A. I wonder if there isn't the pressure of perhaps the threat of
8 being put out to the wolves, so to speak.
9 Q. By whom?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Which wolves?
12 A. The KLA.
13 Q. Who would put him to the wolves?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Or the KLA? This is a person interviewed for the purpose of
16 dealing with your testimony, Mr. Lituchy.
17 A. And it's not accurate.
18 Q. No?
19 A. It's not truthful, as far as I can tell.
20 Q. Not truthful. Very well. That's the assertion you are --
21 A. It's not the truth, that I know.
22 Q. The interviews were generally conducted by Serbian journalists.
23 Let's turn over to paragraph 6: "I recall one interview in particular
24 sometime in July or August 1999, which took place in the basement of the
25 Hotel Prague in Belgrade and that was conducted in the English language
1 and I responded to questions in the Serbian language via a Serbian
2 interpreter. At the same time the journalist conducted an interview also
3 with Albanian number 1. The interviews were taken in the same room with
4 all of us but we were responding the questions one by one." That's
5 accurate, isn't it?
6 A. That is, yes. That's perfectly accurate.
7 Q. Deals with number 2 and the circumstances of number 1. Paragraph
8 9: "The interviews were taken by a male English speaking journalist at
9 the presence of a cameraman and Serbian and English speaking interpreter.
10 I do not remember the name of the English speaking journalist. Even if
11 the ICTY investigator would tell me the name I am not able to confirm it
12 as correct. Maybe I could recognise the person by face only. But I would
13 like to stress that I did not give any other interview in Hotel Prague in
14 Belgrade apart from this one.
15 "In Hotel Prague were present plainclothes and uniformed Serbian
16 Interior Ministry police officers." Pause there. You'll probably read on
17 to the next line and we're coming to it, but just pausing there. In the
18 hotel there were Serb Interior Ministry police officers present; correct?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. But they were not present in the basement during the interview?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. So that clarifies, doesn't it?
23 A. Yes, it does; yes, it does.
24 Q. A proper research method, ambiguity: Clarify it by going to a
25 better source?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I'm glad you clarified what I'm saying.
2 Q. And this shows the value, doesn't it, of proper research methods?
3 A. You came to the same conclusion I did through my methods.
4 Q. "I believe I was identified as an interview subject because of my
5 ethnicity, combined with the fact that" -- I'm not going to read the last
6 bit but you can read it.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that how he was identified?
9 A. He identified himself in that way.
10 Q. How was he actually got to the Hotel Prague?
11 A. You know, I don't know that answer. I know -- I know how the
12 interview -- I know how I organised the interview but I don't know how he
13 got to the Hotel Prague, no.
14 Q. So someone on your behalf, to use the modern verb derived from a
15 noun, targeted him as a potential interviewee.
16 A. Targeted. No, that's not accurate. Targeted, no, that's not
18 Q. Paragraph 11: "I would like to say that, as with all interviews,
19 I have responded to all questions in the manner that would have been
20 expected from me by the Belgrade authorities ..."
21 I'm sorry that you laugh, Mr. Lituchy. Explain, please, why it
22 should be funny --
23 A. It's absurd.
24 Q. No, listen to the question. Why it should be funny that a refugee
25 in the state like the Belgrade state, or the Serbian state was in Belgrade
1 at this time, should say something like that.
2 A. It's absurd when you think about the fact that this man's father
3 was murdered by the KLA. How could -- how could -- how is it possible
4 that he needed any compulsion to tell the truth or to speak? He was
5 compelled by his own personal life experience.
6 Q. Refugees in Belgrade at this time were in a hostile environment.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Weren't they?
9 A. No, no. That's absolutely false. That's totally false.
10 Q. The government of this accused was not friendly to this type of
11 refugee at all, was it?
12 A. I don't believe that's true.
13 Q. Don't you?
14 A. No, no. In fact, I think the only thing that saved his life was
15 that he did have this government to flee to.
16 Q. So you feel it appropriate, when somebody interviewed about this
17 experience sets it out, you think it appropriate to laugh, do you, at his
19 A. No, I was laughing at you, Mr. Nice.
20 Q. Let's see exactly what it was you were laughing at. Your answer
21 was with "targeted." You said that's not accurate. I asked you paragraph
22 11, and I quoted from the person being interviewed, and I quoted only so
23 far. I got down to the word "Belgrade authorities," and then I
24 interrupted myself because you were laughing. So explain to me how,
25 Mr. Lituchy, since you volunteered this, how you find it appropriate to
1 laugh at me when I read out verbatim the words of somebody interviewed
2 last week in careful and considered circumstances about your evidence?
3 A. I don't -- I don't -- I don't accept this as an accurate
4 statement, and I think it's -- I think it's a terrible distortion of what
5 actually happened, because I was there.
6 Q. So you were laughing at the statement and the person being
8 A. No.
9 Q. And not at me.
10 A. You're the one who said that it's the Belgrade authorities. Well,
11 okay, you may have been reading from this statement, but I can't -- I
12 can't accept this as being -- as being anything but some fraud.
13 Q. Mr. Lituchy, your bias and prejudice is such, and you revealed it,
14 that you would laugh at a refugee.
15 A. No.
16 Q. At somebody upon who --
17 A. No.
18 Q. Very well, then let me ask you this question before we read on:
19 You as a serious researcher, if somebody you've spoken to says something
20 different and gives an explanation for why the account is different, do
21 you consider it --
22 A. Of course.
23 Q. -- or do you just laugh it off?
24 A. No, no, no, no. This is just --
25 Q. Do you laugh it off, Mr. Lituchy?
1 A. No, no, no. That's not correct.
2 Q. Let's read on and get to the end of this.
3 A. That's not correct. That's not accurate.
4 Q. I'll take the same sentence again and you must feel free to
5 respond in whatever way you think's appropriate. "I would like to say
6 that, as with all interviews, I have responded to all questions in the
7 manner that would have been expected from me by the Belgrade authorities -
8 who approved the interview in the first place - and would in no way have
9 criticised the Serbian government.
10 "I am always mindful during the interview, of the fact that my
11 family remained ... even though it was now ... more importantly, I was in
12 in Belgrade where any negative statements towards the government as well
13 as any support for the NATO action would in my opinion --" and then he
14 sets out the consequences for himself and/or for others. He explained in
15 paragraph 13 that he hasn't been approached by you or, until we approached
16 him, by anyone. He explains his willingness to testify.
17 MR. NICE: And Your Honours, again, this is a clarification of and
18 indeed a slight change from the position in the Sutch statement at
19 paragraph 14 where he deals with the question of protection. I don't need
20 to read that out but I certainly want the Chamber to have read it. And
21 the Chamber will see in paragraph 14, in the second to last line, there is
22 an amplification or addition to the grounds of his position of last week.
23 Q. You, Mr. Lituchy, were asking questions with your colleagues
24 sitting around you and with an unreliable interpreter in circumstances
25 that would bring about unreliable answers from those to whom you spoke.
1 A. No.
2 Q. Everything about Albanian number 3, and indeed everything about
3 the rest of the circumstances of this interview and the transcript show
4 that this is an unreliable document.
5 A. No. That's not -- that's not correct.
6 Q. So that I can understand your position, you never interviewed
7 those in Albania or Macedonia who had left Kosovo in the period either
8 before or during the NATO bombing?
9 A. No, I only interviewed Roma refugees in Serbia and in Kosovo,
10 that's all.
11 Q. You made one observation - this is I think my last question, or my
12 last topic which may be two questions but no more - about those Serbs who
13 left the Krajina, you described it in the most dramatic terms, and left
14 for Belgrade. Are you aware that many of them were forced straight out
15 into Kosovo without any sympathy being given to them by the Belgrade
17 A. I don't know that for a fact, but if -- if -- it's -- I don't
18 know. I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the answer to that
20 MR. NICE: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, any re-examination?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few questions. With regard
23 to the third Albanian.
24 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] As we can see, he even gave some kind of a
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm sorry.
3 Mr. Nice, do you wish to exhibit these?
4 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the question of exhibits, it's a fairly
5 difficult one at the moment. There are two things that I would invite the
6 Chamber at some stage to consider, and that is whether in relation to the
7 production of whatever parts of the exhibit itself, the Chamber should
8 consider Rule 95, which says that no evidence should be admissible if
9 obtained by methods which cast substantial doubt on its reliability or if
10 its admission is antithetical to or could seriously damage the integrity
11 of the proceedings. The Chamber has now heard a great deal more evidence
12 about this exhibit, including concessions by the witness himself as to the
13 transcript. Of course they rely on the tape itself. If the Chamber
14 admits the exhibit in part, clearly not in whole, but if it admits it in
15 part, I would of course apply for the statement taken to go in as an
16 exhibit, but I'm aware of what the Chamber's practice was in relation to
17 an earlier witness.
18 It's a matter that I'm seeking to resolve. I make no mystery of
19 the fact that there's a motion or so coming your way today or, at the
20 latest I hope, tomorrow, but I can hardly -- I can hardly consciously ask
21 for something that I know to be inconsistent with your earlier and recent
23 The Prosecution's position is, however, that if the exhibit goes
24 in of the witness, then, yes, the statement would be an item we would like
25 to be exhibited.
1 JUDGE KWON: The transcript has already been admitted, hasn't it?
2 MR. NICE: I think it probably has been, but, Your Honour, I'm
3 quite sure that it's always possible for decisions about admissibility of
4 documents to be changed, but that's a matter for the Court.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Very well, Mr. Nice. Let's hear the
6 re-examination, and bear in mind we're stopping at twenty past.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll try not to keep
8 Mr. Lituchy until tomorrow.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Nice provided two documents. There's no need to omit
11 mentioning the name. That is Sutch, Jonathan Sutch who interviewed
12 Albanian number 3. At the bottom of page 1 - and Mr. Nice indicated this-
13 it says -- let me skip over this that this gentleman stated that another
14 person, another important person from Kosovo, an Albanian: "[In English]
15 ... interviews as well as plainclothed Serbian Interior Ministry police
16 officers." [Interpretation] So the investigator claims that this Albanian
17 number 3 said to him very decidedly that a policeman was present during
18 the interview.
19 In paragraph 10 of his statement that was quoted to you --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... of the
21 statement. Sutch makes it clear later that the witness says that there
22 was no one present from the police in the Hotel Prague interview, which is
23 the only one that matters for this purpose. The position's already clear
24 that the witness wasn't claiming there were any police present at that
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry Mr. Bonomy. Maybe I did
2 not understand what it says here. It states here Mr. XY stated "[In
3 English] Mr. XYZ would be present in the interviews as well as -- as well
4 as plainclothed Serbian Ministry of Interior police officers."
5 [Interpretation] Full stop. I'm reading what it says here towards the end
6 of Mr. Sutch's statement. I cannot claiming or representing anything.
7 I'm just reading out a part of the statement. This is the very bottom of
8 page 1 of Mr. Sutch's statement, the last paragraph.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: What about the next sentence?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next sentence doesn't have
11 anything to do with any presence. "He does not recall -- [In English]
12 police being present at the Hotel Prague interview." [Interpretation] It
13 has to do with the following: "[In English]... that he was identified as
14 an interview subject because of his -- of his ethnicity combined with the
15 fact that he was --" then there is about profession.
16 [Interpretation] So that is clear, I hope. Then in paragraph 10
17 of his statement, "In Hotel Prague "[In English] were present plainclothed
18 and uniformed Serbian Interior Ministry police officers. But they were
19 not present in the basement during the interview."
20 [Interpretation] I have a question for Mr. Lituchy.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Lituchy, on these tapes, these extensive tapes that you handed
23 in and that were submitted here, is there any recording that depicts all
24 the persons present in the room? Can you remember that? I, for example,
25 cannot remember, but that's why I'm asking you.
1 A. Yes, there is. It does show -- it does show -- the camera does
2 pan from right to left toward the end of the interview and it shows -- it
3 doesn't pan from -- it does not pan from left to right, but it pans from
4 right to left toward the end of the interview, showing the Romas in the
5 left-hand corner of the room. That much I recall. It shows me as well,
6 conducting the interview.
7 Q. In your opinion, what is the point of mentioning the possibility -
8 I underline the word "possibility" - that some kind of plain clothed
9 policeman was somewhere in a big hotel? Does that indicate any kind of
10 police presence or the fact that in a big hotel like the Hotel Prague a
11 person can find a policeman somewhere?
12 A. That's a question put to me?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Well --
15 Q. Yes. Yes. Did anybody say that to you? These are policemen in
16 plain clothes here, did anyone say that to you?
17 A. No. I mean that is -- that is why it seems absurd to me, because
18 we certainly had no knowledge of any police anywhere near. In fact, for
19 that matter, even in the entire hotel or even out in the street. Who
20 knows where there were policemen. Somewhere in the city, I suppose. I
21 don't know. But not in that hotel. Not in that room, anyway.
22 Q. Not in that room at any rate. That is your assertion. And
23 whether there were any policemen in the hotel, that is not what you're
24 saying at all; is that right?
25 A. Right. I don't know. I mean, I -- I didn't -- I didn't see any
1 policemen walking into the hotel or walking out of the hotel. So as far
2 as I know, we know for a fact there was no one like that in the room, so
3 -- and I didn't see anyone going in or going out of the hotel who I could
4 recognise as a being a policeman, so -- and the whole idea that we -- that
5 we had policemen with us while doing this interview strikes me as being
7 Q. Very well. Could you please look at paragraph 12. Now he says:
8 "[In English] I was always mindful during the interview of the fact that
9 my family remained in Kosovo, even though it was now under NATO/UN
11 A. I remember reading that, but I don't know -- oh, here it is.
13 Q. Paragraph 12.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. He says that his family stayed back in Kosovo. "[In English] ...
16 that I was in Belgrade where any negative statements towards the
17 government as well as support for the NATO action would - in my opinion -
18 have lead to cause me and my family serious harms." [Interpretation]
19 Serious harms.
20 If his family was in Kosovo, is it possible that what he says
21 about the NATO bombing --
22 A. It's illogical. It's an illogical statement. Totally illogical.
23 Shall I explain why?
24 Q. Yes, yes. Please go ahead, yes.
25 A. He was fleeing from Kosovo, from KLA terror. So if he was fleeing
1 into the -- if -- if there was a possibility that the Yugoslav state was a
2 threat to him, why would he flee from terror into the arms of the Yugoslav
3 state for protection?
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm not going to exhibit a lack of
5 discipline. There is another trial scheduled to commence shortly. We
6 were told to --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Can I just use one more
8 minute, please?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think he'll have to come back. All right.
10 Well, one minute.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, please let's not return him.
12 It's not that I have that much left. Just one minute.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Point 7.
15 A. Point 7 in the same document?
16 Q. Thank you. The same point 7. You were asked yesterday how come
17 you claimed that this Albanian number 2 was killed, and this Albanian
18 number 3 says that this person was killed in 2003 in Glodjane village,
19 Stimlje municipality. You know that.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And now finally, how do you explain paragraph 14? I'm just going
22 to read out the second part because of time constraints. "[In English]
23 ... I say that I would prefer --" [Interpretation] he's talking about the
24 video footage of the interview. "[In English] I would prefer it is
25 disclosed in closed session because of safety of my family, which is
1 currently living in Kosovo. Otherwise, I have no objections to disclose
3 [Interpretation] So, does he insist that this be in closed session
4 or - I'm asking you, Mr. Robinson - whether we could play this in open
5 session so that it could be seen. I hope that Mr. Nice is not opposed to
6 this. "[In English] Otherwise, I have no other objections to disclose..."
7 [Interpretation] Although I think that what he says about the safety and
8 security of his own family is reason enough. So I'm not going to insist
9 on this, of course.
10 Did he deny a single word from his interview in this statement?
11 Did he deny a single word from the interview that is a considerably long
12 interview? Did you find any denial or anything that he refuted here?
13 A. He did not deny anything in his interview, and --
14 MR. NICE: There's no reason to ask that. He was asked about the
15 detail of his interview. He was asked about the circumstances of the
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Your very last
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. This Albanian number 3, was he the interviewee who gave the
21 longest answers with political explanations, although you did not insist
22 on such lengthy answers?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lituchy.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Lituchy.
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That concludes your testimony. Thank you for
3 coming to the Tribunal to give it.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're going to adjourn now. Tomorrow we deal
7 with the question of the exhibits.
8 MR. KAY: Exhibit number for this particular tab 1 and tab 2. I
9 don't -- tab 2 is out, but it's tab 1. I don't think we've had a number.
10 JUDGE KWON: We'll deal with it tomorrow.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's deal with everything tomorrow because we
12 are very late.
13 MR. KAY: Okay.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.25 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of
17 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.