1 Monday, 25 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
6 THE ACCUSED: Mr. Robinson.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, before we start
10 working, I have an objection. You know full well that I was not here last
11 week, although I had wanted to do otherwise, and I wish to draw your
12 attention to the following: Article 21 of your Statute, paragraph 4. You
13 know that very well. It refers to the minimum guarantees, entitled to the
14 following minimum guarantees. I am quoting (D) from your Statute: To be
15 present. Cross-examination is part of regular proceedings, so I think
16 that my rights have been infringed upon if an attempt is made to have this
17 done in my absence.
18 I also wish to draw your attention to Article 14(D), the
19 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the same is set
20 out there as a minimum guaranteed right.
21 So these are parts of jus cogens, cogent rights, so there are no
22 exceptions whatsoever which would allow you to decide to continue
23 proceedings in my absence. Therefore, I raise this objection.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the Chamber considered this
25 matter, gave a ruling on it, considered that in the circumstances it was
1 appropriate. If you have an objection and you wish to insist on it, you
2 can take the matter elsewhere.
3 Mr. Nice, please proceed with your cross-examination.
4 WITNESS: KOSTA BULATOVIC [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]
7 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, the accused served a purpose by becoming leader of
8 your group in 1980 -- I say by becoming leader of your group but by
9 becoming a leader who espoused the interests of your group in 1986, didn't
10 he? 1987.
11 A. No.
12 Q. He then used your group to achieve his own objectives, in
13 particular the centralisation of Serbia through bringing about the
14 downfall of Montenegro and Vojvodina's leadership, didn't he?
15 A. No.
16 Q. He then dropped you as you'd ceased to be of use to him.
17 A. Am I supposed to answer that?
18 Q. Yes, please.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Answer the question.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice and gentlemen of the Trial
21 Chamber, I was never in power, before Milosevic or after Milosevic. I was
22 never on the police force. I was never a spy. I did not participate in
23 the war. I don't see how I could have been in any kind of authority, so
24 how could anybody have dropped me when I wasn't there in the first place?
25 Q. It may be that my time is limited. The accused remained
1 vulnerable to the pressure of nationalist Serbs like you right through to
2 the end of the 1990s, as you made clear in the middle of the 1990s, in
3 1994. Remember that?
4 A. I don't remember that.
5 Q. Well, in the 19 -- in 1994 -- we're going to come back and look at
6 the terms of your 1985 petition which have now been translated into
7 English, but for time reasons I'm going to go straight to 1994. You were
8 the first signatory on another petition, and this petition shows the
9 linkage between national Serbs, Kosovo, and the other wars with which this
10 -- in respect of which this accused is charged.
11 MR. NICE: May the document please be distributed. We've looked
12 at it earlier, Your Honours, but -- I think, but we haven't seen it in
13 this final version which has the translation associated with the document
14 itself. The document as photocopied in the version we have doesn't start
15 with signatory number one but I think Mr. Bulatovic will confirm that he
16 was signatory number one.
17 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, time doesn't allow me but to go through a few of
18 the paragraphs of this petition. We can see it summarised elsewhere. And
19 on the third paragraph, the petition says: "The current Serbian
20 authorities which were given an historic chance as well as an historic
21 obligation and responsibility to seriously resolve one of the biggest
22 problems of the Serbian nation have been bypassing Kosmet for the fourth
24 Next paragraph: "The Serbian issue in Kosovo and Metohija has
25 become a means of winning and preserving power while the Serbian people in
1 Kosovo have been portrayed as a militant and stormy element unworthy of
2 anyone's sacrifice for their salvation. Because of such a picture the
3 Serbian issue in Kosovo has become a burden to the authorities and the
4 opposition which everybody now is avoiding."
5 If you go on, please, to the next paragraph but two, I think, and
6 on the Court's page it's the start of the next sheet, beginning, "Due to
7 ill defined and inconsistent Serbian policy..." but the sixth line says
8 this: "In March 1995, it will be five years since the passing of the
9 programme of Serbian colonisation of Kosmet which promised the settlement
10 of a hundred thousand Serbs. Unfortunately, not only were only a
11 negligible number settled there but the exodus continued while at the same
12 time more than 25.000 new Albanians were born."
13 And in the demands, the numbered nine demands, number 2 seeks
14 halting of the process of Albanisation; number 4, that the parallel ethnic
15 state be crushed; and number 7, that there be colonisation of Kosovo.
16 Now, that's a petition that you were the first signatory of in
17 1994; correct?
18 A. No. I'm not a signatory. I'm not the first signatory. Now, did
19 I sign it at all, that is something I cannot claim. I cannot see my
20 signature here.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you had a point to make?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't want to go into the
23 interpretation, Mr. Robinson, but the Serb colonisation of Kosovo is not
24 mentioned anywhere in the Serbian version of this text, whereas Mr. Nice
25 referred to it twice, the Serb colonisation of Kosovo.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's in the English text. Can we have another
2 translation of the B/C/S? It's number 7. Can we have the B/C/S --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Settling Kosovo. "To urgently adopt
4 a programme of the settlement of Kosovo and to ensure money for its
5 implementation." No colonisation of Kosovo is referred to.
6 MR. NICE:
7 Q. Can we now please look at the next document which I'd like you to
8 look at --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I just want to thank Mr. Milosevic for
10 that clarification, because "colonisation" is a loaded word.
11 MR. NICE:
12 Q. Can we look, please, at a newspaper article of the 21st of October
13 of 1994. If you'd like to look at this newspaper article, Mr. Bulatovic.
14 MR. NICE: The Chamber may like to look at the original first to
15 see the photograph and the set-out of this document. It's headed
16 "Milosevic has betrayed us."
17 Can the witness have the version, please, opened at the Serbian
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, again I got the very
20 same article that Mr. Nice presented a few moments ago, and he is
21 referring to a different article now, but I got the same one yet again,
22 just a different copy.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Would you ensure that the accused has the
24 correct version, correct article.
25 MR. NICE:
1 Q. You see the -- can I have a look at the article he's got there?
2 This article is headed "Milosevic has betrayed us." It has a picture of
3 you. It's dated the 21st of October of 1994, and I'm going to read a few
4 passages from it.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we have just been given now, Mr. Nice,
6 the correct article.
7 MR. NICE: I'm sorry there was a mistake.
8 Q. The English translation of the article on the first page says this
9 of you, Mr. Bulatovic, in the middle of the page in English: "No
10 individual is better qualified to testify to the dissatisfaction of
11 Kosovar Serbs, to outline the reasons for the reactivation of the
12 resistance movement, and to organise a new petition than Bulatovic, and he
13 has again been the first to sign it."
14 And then three paragraphs further on, it says this as your
15 observation in the interview: "Our petition was also motivated by that
16 fear. It simply awoke us from a deep sleep. If Milosevic renounces the
17 Srpska republic overnight, where he has people and territory, what will
18 happen with this part of Serbia, where he has neither people nor
19 territory? There are fewer than 200.000 Serbs in Kosovo, which is in
20 ethnic Albanian hands."
21 Your next answer says: "Of course it is our joint struggle, and
22 whether we shall succeed in defending the territory of the Serbian people
23 across the Drina is precisely the issue on which depends our strength to
24 defend Serbian interests here as well."
25 And you go on, Mr. Bulatovic, in the interview record to say this:
1 "Second, since it is we Serbs from Kosovo who created Milosevic and let
2 his genie out of the bottle, we consider ourselves to be responsible for
3 everything that is happening to the Serbian people and Serbia today.
4 Milosevic soared to the throne on the shoulder of the Serbian Resistance
5 Movement in Kosovo and Metohija. The movement prepared everything for him
6 and enabled him to rule in whatever way pleases him."
7 The interviewer asked you: "You seem to be disappointed with the
8 President of Serbia," to which you replied: "God could not have laid a
9 greater misfortune upon our Serbs than to leave the communists in the
10 power, instead of [Joseph Tito] Broz to give us a little Broz."
11 You were asked: "Still, the fact is that you supported Milosevic
12 and stood by his side," to which you replied this: "That is not true.
13 Milosevic stood by my side as long as he needed me and the entire
14 resistance movement. The movement was established in 1981, it became
15 stronger until 1986, when Milosevic came to Kosovo Polje in April 1987 and
16 simply captured our hearts with the famous statement of his, that nobody
17 will be allowed to beat us Serbs. He needed us until early 1989 when he
18 formed the Red Peony ... and ideologically coloured the national
20 Do you accept everything you said in that interview,
21 Mr. Bulatovic, as accurate?
22 A. Partly yes, partly no. We accepted the words that President
23 Milosevic had said at the gathering in Kosovo Polje, and this morning at
24 6.30 a.m., it is exactly 19 years since that event, precisely this
25 morning. He spoke to us then like any other politician from Belgrade who
1 came to see us. We did not agree with Milosevic's predecessors either, or
2 with their positions. They left Kosovo, and they practically sold us down
3 the river, the leadership of Serbia did. We wanted to voice our criticism
4 in view of him and in view of his predecessors so that the voice of Serbs
5 there would be heard so that we would be finally brought to an equal
6 position to the Siptars and the others in Kosovo and Metohija. It's not
7 that we created Milosevic or that he created us. It is our own trouble
8 that created us, Mr. Nice.
9 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd be grateful if you didn't speak at the same
11 time. Mr. Nice, go ahead.
12 MR. NICE:
13 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, not for the first time you've used the word
14 "Siptars" about Kosovo Albanians. You know that the word "Siptar" on the
15 mouth of a Serb is offensive.
16 A. Yes --
17 Q. Why do you use it in this Court?
18 A. No. There's nothing offensive about it. The Siptars, they call
19 their own country Sipu. Maybe you don't know that. It's not offensive at
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
22 A. It would be offensive if I call them Arnauts, like the Turks
23 called them, but saying "Siptar," there's nothing wrong with that. That
24 is their national state.
25 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, it is --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- offensive to Albanians to call them Siptars if you are a
3 non-Albanian, and you know that. And believe me, there are Albanians here
4 in this room. Would you be so good as to describe them in a less
5 offensive way.
6 A. I'm glad if there are Albanians here.
7 MR. NICE: So that the Court can understand the Prosecution's
8 position on this - we've heard earlier evidence on it - there can be terms
9 such as, for example, Polak. My suggestion to this witness is that it is
10 as offensive to use the word Siptars by a Serb as it would be for
11 non-Poles to use the word Polaks to and about Polish people although that
12 is itself a Polish term.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I understand. Mr. Milosevic did ask the
14 question of -- to the witness, and he answered that it is the way that
15 themselves described themselves. But I understand your point. It is that
16 for a non-Albanian to use the term it is offensive to them.
17 MR. NICE: Correct. And there are Albanians and Albanian speakers
18 in this courtroom.
19 Q. Can I take you now, please, Mr. Bulatovic, for want of time, to
20 two more passages in this interview of yours.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Where are we so far? I mean, I have divined
22 nothing from the question and answer -- the way the question was posed,
23 Mr. Nice, inevitably produced the answer which came, and really has
24 advanced matters not at all, as far as I can see, unless you can guide me
25 to something that I ought to have taken from that answer.
1 MR. NICE: I certainly can. Your Honour should see from this
2 document that this man out --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, from his answer, not from the document.
4 I'm trying to understand -- I don't know what he accepts and what he
5 doesn't at the moment.
6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the problem with that is that he gave a
7 long answer which was non-responsive to my question.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not so sure about that.
9 MR. NICE: Partly --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not so sure about that. The question
11 inevitably drew the answer, I think, that it got that part of it he
12 accepts and part he doesn't, but I have no idea which part he accepts and
13 which part he doesn't accept.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.
15 MR. NICE: -- nail points down, and the Court knows what time
16 restraint I will be under if I accommodate the two-thirds protocol. What
17 I was hoping to do, because the answer was long and non-specific, was to
18 put the two other passages to the witness and ask him to accept the two
19 points that I want from him, but that's all I can do in the time.
20 JUDGE KWON: Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Nice, but first of all, the
21 witness denied his signature at the letter but the first passage in this
22 document says Mr. Bulatovic the signatory, signatory to the letter. We
23 could pursue that point.
24 MR. NICE: I was going to pursue that again at the end, but I can
25 pursue it now.
1 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, in this interview you're identified as the first
2 signatory of the letter. Is that correct? Were you the first signatory?
3 The photocopy we have starts at number 6, I believe.
4 A. Please believe me when I say that I cannot remember any of this.
5 As for the petition of the 2,016, yes, I was the first to sign, and 219 of
6 the wisest person -- people in the Serb nation supported it, and I said
7 that the first day here before the Trial Chamber, and I don't think that
8 can be contested in any way.
9 Now, when we come to this, the criticisms of Mr. Milosevic, this
10 is just proof of the fact that we Serbs were not satisfied with the fact
11 that no steps were taken in Kosovo and Metohija after he came to visit
12 Kosovo Polje, and you're attacking him and saying that he did lots of
13 things there against - how shall I put this? - against the Albanians - you
14 want me to call them Albanians; is that right? - to fulfil our will. So
15 if that doesn't -- anyway, we Serbs call the Albanians who came to Kosovo
16 from Albanian, Mr. Robinson. That's who we refer to as Albanians. But
17 those who were born there and were there all the time, we refer to them as
18 the Siptars. We Serbs do, I mean. To clarify that issue. So I don't
19 think that I insulted them in any way. Now, whether you believe me or not
20 is up to you, but you're the first person that has made that remark in the
21 past 60 years and I've been living there for 62 years. No Albanian ever
22 told me anything like that. You don't have to believe me, but that's how
23 things stand.
24 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at two more passages in this
25 interview and I'm going to ask you a couple of questions.
1 If the Chamber on its second sheet would go three-quarters of the
2 way down and if you turn on a -- no, first of all we have to -- let's deal
3 with this. In the middle of the second page you -- dealing with the
4 organisation the Red Peony, you said: "... solely for that reason: to
5 square accounts with the leaders of the resistance movement, to pronounce
6 them traitors and turn the national platform into a platform of the
7 communist party. Milosevic was afraid of the leadership of the resistance
8 movement and knew that I was an implacable anti-communist. Since I knew
9 that, if I did not stop, a car might hit me, or a brick from some
10 dilapidated house might fall on my head ..."
11 Quick observation there: You're describing there the sort of
12 violence that might come to those who disagree with authority, are you?
13 A. Well, that's what the situation is like today in Serbia, too.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
15 A. Worse things are happening.
16 Q. And it was then under the accused?
17 A. Let me put it this way. I'll give you a very clear answer to that
18 question straight away: This text is a criticism for us to force the
19 president, Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, to take radical steps in Kosovo and
20 Metohija. He didn't take any steps. And on the other hand, you're
21 accepting this that in relation to the authorities was provocative.
22 That's true, it was provocative in order that something should be done,
23 that the authorities should do something, because they didn't take any
24 steps. Nothing was done. The republican authorities in Belgrade were
25 worse than in Pristina --
1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... on to --
2 A. -- because we expected them to give us protection and they didn't
3 protect us, so that's where the crux of the matter lies.
4 Q. Next answer but two, I think: "The fact that he hasn't changed
5 the political system but is rather trying to settle problems by using the
6 old power mechanism is our greatest disappointment. He has remained a
7 communist, which is best seen in the fact that his party's interests are
8 more important to him than national interests. He wants to settle the
9 Serbian national question and to preserve communism at the same time. He
10 gave up the national struggle for the Serbian territories across the Drina
11 for ideological reasons. Fearing that the epidemic from there might
12 spread over here, he has imposed more severe sanctions against the Srpska
13 republic than the UN Security Council did against Yugoslavia."
14 Now, pausing there, you didn't know, did you, from your position,
15 the degree of daily support that the accused was actually providing for
16 those across the Drina despite the appearance of a blockade, did you?
17 A. No. We didn't know at all that Serbia was becoming involved, and
18 we considered that it should become involved because that's where our
19 people were. And you couldn't leave your people to be slaughtered as in
20 World War II. You have to protect it. And that border on the Drina was
21 intercepted. And all links were cut off with the republic. So this was a
22 criticism of those positions and that policy.
23 And on the other hand, you attack Mr. Milosevic, our president,
24 and say that he interfered across the Drina River. We're criticising him
25 for not having interfered to protect the people. We were left
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 unprotected. Those across the Drina were left unprotected. So it was the
2 same when lions are attacking you. When lions attack herds of cattle in
3 the desert and they devour them.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, would you just wait a minute, please.
5 I want to consult with the Chamber.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I'm not sure how this line of
8 cross-examination supports your case. It seems to be the opposite.
9 MR. NICE: Your Honour will in part have to wait for my next
10 question and in part have to await arguments built on the rest of the
11 evidence, but the Court will remember, it has heard it already elsewhere,
12 there is evidence that flowed -- that aid was flowing daily, from the
13 mouth of the accused himself, despite the blockade. In any event, putting
14 in a document like this for the purpose I'm going to put it in, requires
15 to be put in, broadly speaking, in full, both sides.
16 Now to my question to the witness, with your leave.
17 Q. You, Mr. Bulatovic, were concerned on behalf of nationalist Serbs
18 to put this accused under pressure because he wasn't doing enough, so you
19 said, either for the Kosovo Serbs or for the Serbs across the Drina, and
20 he reacted to your demands and gave you what he wanted -- what you wanted,
21 didn't he, in two ways.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Can you explain, then, why, having been quite so critical, and the
24 Chamber can see the rest of the highly critical terms you addressed to the
25 accused, can you explain why you're now such a supporter of his if he
1 didn't respond to you and give you what you wanted?
2 A. Had we -- we weren't given what we wanted but he did do a part of
3 it, and this is what he did: The constitution of Serbia and the provinces
4 was changed, was amended. The provinces had more power than Serbia
5 proper, Central Serbia. And with the amendments in the constitution,
6 those provinces came under the authority of Serbia --
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
8 A. -- and that part of the job was done.
9 Q. We're now in 1994. What --
10 A. Well, precisely because nothing was undertaken against -- to
11 combat terror and terrorism in Kosovo. Terrorism in Kosovo prevailed and
12 the authorities from Serbia - and Serbia now had absolute power - did
13 nothing radical, took no radical steps there. There was so much killing
14 there, and you have facts and figures, you delve in politics yourself.
15 I'm sure you have information, as a prosecutor, of the number of people --
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
17 A. -- who were killed there.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... get an answer and then I'm
19 going to suggest to you what the answer is if you don't tell me. What is
20 it, please, that this accused did between 1994 and today that makes you
21 such a supporter of his given your criticism in 1994? Can you help us,
23 A. Of course, certainly, certainly. It's very simple, Mr. Nice, a
24 very simple answer. We demanded of him you know what, it's written down
25 in the text, you have it in front you. Not in that interview, I mean, but
1 generally our demands, our requests, and the constitutional amendments
2 went through. But radical steps for us to have life in security and
3 safety, that we could move around properly, that we could work normally,
4 that we could take part in the life of Kosovo and Metohija, that's what we
5 didn't have and that's what we asked for, so from that time we expressed
6 our dissatisfaction about that. I don't know if I've explained this
8 Now, why am I defending him today? Because the indictment is
9 false. That's why I'm defending him. Because had he taken any steps in
10 Kosovo, had he done anything radical there, what kind of indictment would
11 you have had then? If we were brought into a position of equality,
12 whereas people had to leave their universities, their schools, their
13 companies, there was public sabotage by the Albanians, and the
14 authorities, the powers that be knew about this and did nothing about it,
15 did nothing to help us. So that's where the conflict lies. And the whole
16 nation today in Serbia, I'm sure you have your intelligence services and
17 know about all that, but all the people in Serbia were surprised as to who
18 wrote the indictment. Not even if Pristina had written the indictment
19 would it have been worded in the way it was.
20 Q. You understand that my general proposition to you is that this
21 accused, although he dropped you in 1988 and 1989, remained vulnerable to
22 the pressure of nationalist Serbs, and following this petition and your
23 letter, the -- even the appearance of the blockade against the Serbs in
24 the Drina diminished towards the end of 1994. That's one way in which he
25 met your demands. But the other way in which he met your demands and
1 satisfied you was to start the process of attacking in an institutional
2 way the Kosovo Albanians. And that started in 1995, and it was responsive
3 in part or whole to your pressure, and that's one of the reasons you
4 support him, isn't it, Mr. Bulatovic?
5 A. No, that's not correct. First of all, it's not correct that he
6 rejected us. And who are we? You have the whole nation, all the people
7 there. I wasn't there alone. So I was interested in whether I could
8 survive with my family in Kosovo and Metohija and continue living there.
9 Not my family but every Serb family in Kosovo and Metohija. And that is
10 what you, Mr. Nice, do not wish or cannot understand or do not wish to
11 understand, I don't know which, and that's the problem.
12 Q. Let me give you a few examples. You remember the famous 200
13 police trial where Kosovo Albanian policemen were tried and subject to
14 heavy sentences. That was responsive to this pressure of yours, and it
15 was said at the time by human rights organisations to be responsive to
16 this sort of pressure, wasn't it?
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: What year was that, Mr. Nice?
18 MR. NICE: 1995.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that.
20 MR. NICE:
21 Q. At the same time, human rights organisations in 1995 were
22 recording the increase in oppression of Kosovo Albanians by discrimination
23 in employment, by police brutality, by restrictions on freedom of
24 association, and by political trials. That was responsive to your
25 pressure, wasn't it?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So you were a --
3 A. No. Your reports aren't correct. Your information is not
4 correct. There was no pressure exerted on them. What happened was that
5 at that time, and we didn't know who they were contacting, which forces in
6 the world were supporting them, that's what we didn't know, so that they
7 could go about doing the underhand things they did. So we had a state,
8 whereas they did not have a state of their own and what they wanted was a
9 state of their own. So everything that what -- were belonged to the state
10 was sabotaged and their behaviour to it was that they should destroy it,
11 destroy everything that was the state. That was the difference between
12 their population and our population. And according to what I know today,
13 that's it. I didn't know all that then. I must say that loud and clear
14 before this Tribunal. I've come here to tell the truth, not to tell
15 stories and tales of various kinds.
16 Q. And as we move on to other events of the late 1990s before I
17 return to the 1980s for the time that I may, to show the continued
18 integration of your pressure and of Kosovo and the other conflict areas,
19 do you remember in 1996, in July of 1996, a full year after Srebrenica,
20 being interviewed on the British Broadcasting Corporation, praising
21 Radovan Karadzic as the most popular living Serb, pressing for him to be
22 president of the joint country of Serbia and Montenegro? Do you remember
23 doing that?
24 A. Yes, that's true.
25 Q. That was -- is that still your view, that Radovan Karadzic is the
1 greatest living Serb, most popular living Serb?
2 A. Certainly.
3 Q. And you --
4 A. That --
5 Q. -- have not a moment's hesitation about any of the things that
6 happened in the course of his leadership in Bosnia, do you? Not a
7 moment's hesitation?
8 A. How do you mean "moment's hesitation"? He stood at the head of
9 the people to save the people, not to suffer the same fate as they did in
10 World War II at Jasenovac and other camps, and he did what he could to
11 save them. A lot of people did die. A war is a war. So Karadzic did for
12 his people as best he could to protect them. What he was able to protect,
13 he did protect. What he didn't, it was God's fate and destiny that that
14 happened. And that's it.
15 Q. The last thing that the accused did that makes you so favourable
16 to him now, Mr. Bulatovic, is that he, following March 1999, had hundreds
17 of thousands of Kosovo Albanians kicked out and thousands killed, didn't
18 he? And that met your national Serb demands.
19 A. Those are your observations. That's not true. I'll tell you
20 this: I was in hospital when the shelling in Kosovo started and the NATO
21 pact aggression on Yugoslavia started. I found myself in hospital
22 undergoing treatment. And let me tell you straight away that from Kosovo
23 everybody fled who was able to flee, both the Serbs and the Siptars -- I
24 mean Albanians, if you want - all right, I'll say Albanians now -- and the
25 Roma and the Macedonians and the Turks around Prizren, which is where they
1 mostly lived, everybody tried to escape from the territory that was being
2 shelled, to take refuge. Now, imagine this: Had the people not fled
3 outside the territory that was rocketed, that was shelled, can you imagine
4 how many more thousands would have lost their lives? Nobody expelled
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Bulatovic. That's not
7 responsive to my question.
8 A. Nobody expelled them.
9 Q. The evidence in this Court may satisfy the learned Judges in due
10 course that thousands were killed and hundreds of thousands expelled by
11 Serbs. You know that to be the case, don't you, and that's why you
12 approve of this accused, and that's why you're here to help him.
13 A. No, that's not true.
14 Q. Let's go back to --
15 A. First of all, I don't know about those thousands killed. In our
16 country, the figures say that 2 or 3.000 Albanians were killed and as many
17 Serbs, roughly, about 2.000 Serbs, a little less Serbs than Albanians.
18 Therefore, all the thousands that you mention and bring up is something
19 that I don't know about, and I'm hearing those figures, those many, many
20 thousands here for the first time today.
21 At Bolija [phoen], for example, now they are extracting the bones
22 of Serbs who were kidnapped and killed, for instance. Now you're skipping
23 over that. There's no word from you about the Serbs as victims, you as
24 the Prosecutor I mean, which means that that is tendentious, sheer
1 Q. You may carry on making remarks like that as long as you think
2 it's helping you, but you just tell me this, or tell the learned Judges
3 this: Do you think that the loss of lives in either Bosnia, Croatia, or
4 in Kosovo at the hands of Serbs to the extent that that was proved is
5 justified because of the Serb national interest? Is that your position?
6 A. My position is that we should have fought to save our people, and
7 if possible, to save it from genocide. No tendency. I don't think there
8 was any tendency on the part of Karadzic or anybody else that in defending
9 their own people to try and destroy another people. That would mean that
10 ultimately they were working against their own people and were the enemies
11 of their own people.
12 Our views of the world are not the same, Mr. Nice, and I apologise
13 for having to say that. No, they are not. You can't do evil and wish for
14 good. You can only do good and then God will reward you with good, but
15 evil begets evil.
16 Q. We will look at a 1985 petition which was your -- it had your
17 first signature, because although it was provided, it wasn't provided in
18 English, although it was said to contain no offensive term of any kind in
19 it, so I must use my time to put in the English translation.
20 Because this comes in 1985 -- and let's just remember the
21 position, Mr. Bulatovic: A full ten years before the arrival of what's
22 become known as the KLA, four years only after the demonstrations in
23 Pristina in 1981, four years into your Serb nationalist disappointment
24 with your inability to change the constitution. That's my suggestion to
25 you. And let's see what in fact this mild petition, as it was effectively
1 being described, reveals.
2 You put your signature in 1985 to a petition the second paragraph
3 of which says: "The real situation is crushing. A portion of Yugoslavia
4 is under occupation: the territory of our historical and national entity,
5 while a fascist genocide against us, Kosovo and Metohija Serbs, has gained
6 social recognition."
7 What was the genocide that you were alleging there in public,
9 A. First of all, you're saying that the KLA was created now when the
10 war began, and that's just not true. The KLA was working clandestinely
11 the whole period after the war. But it wasn't as broad based. There were
12 individual killings, cattle were maimed and killed and blinded, roofs were
13 destroyed on houses, for example, and children did that, for instance. So
14 all this type of pressure from the KLA. And it has existed throughout.
15 What did you say?
16 Q. Which is the fascist genocide -- you're writing a document,
17 Mr. Bulatovic. I just want you to understand what I'm asking you about.
18 You're writing a document, distributing it publicly so as to go to your
19 fellow countrymen. Who are you accusing, please, of fascist genocide in
21 A. All the Albanian terrorists who waged terrorism throughout Kosovo
22 and Metohija, Mr. Nice. And that's what you can't understand.
23 Q. This is 1985. We can look --
24 A. Well, Mr. Nice, what would you say that it meant if you set fire
25 to the Pec Patriarchy, the very spirit and soul of the Serbian Orthodox
1 Church? What do you think that is? Is it genocide? It is intent, the
2 intent to destroy everything that is Serb in Kosovo and Metohija. They
3 have no cultural movements in Kosovo and Metohija.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Monuments, I'm sorry, interpreter's correction.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- monuments in Kosovo and
6 Metohija. Let them tell us what cultural monuments they have and what is
7 the cultural foundation for their being there. They don't have it. They
8 don't have anything to show. Kosovo is the largest Serb cemetery, the
9 largest Serb cemetery and the largest -- most of its churches and
10 monasteries are there and land belonging to Serb monasteries. That is it,
11 Mr. Nice. When you extract somebody's heart, can they continue to live?
12 And that's what the situation like -- is like in Kosovo and Metohija.
13 They want this alien factor to extract the very soul of Serbia. That's
14 how we Serbs see it, and we claim that that is so and it is indeed so.
15 MR. NICE:
16 Q. You're lost in the past, I must suggest to you.
17 A. Had we done anything against Albanian -- if you want me to say
18 "Albanian," I'll say it -- against the Albanian people, then what would
19 you say then? They terrorised us in our own state. They killed us in our
20 own state and expelled us from our own state or in our own state. Have
21 you got an example anywhere else in the world that you can quote which is
22 similar to that? You are an intelligence man. I am somebody who I'm sure
23 you consider to be illiterate, but can you give me an example in the world
24 of a country which has its own state and allows a minority to come in and
25 terrorise that? That only happened in Kosovo and Metohija, Mr. Nice.
1 Rest assured that that is the truth of it.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... small clip - the audio
3 booth, we're using Sanction - an interview with you. I suggest this
4 reveals, along with your previous answer, where your thinking comes from.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. NICE:
7 Q. Murat, the man who has that emotion on you, died, what, over 600
8 years ago?
9 A. Murat died. He was a Turkish Tsar, leader, and he was killed and
10 so was Knez Lazar, the Serbian leader, at the battle of Kosovo, and that
11 was the only battle in the history of the peoples of the world in which
12 two leaders, Tsars, were killed. There's Lazar on the Serb side and the
13 Turkish Tzar Murat on the other.
14 Q. A few more passages because this document --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- as a document of importance, and what I'm going to suggest to
17 you while we look at it is that the independent human rights reports for
18 the 1980s dealing with Kosovo will show that, yes, there were independent
19 and -- sorry, individual incidents of violence against Kosovo Serbs. Not
20 organised but by individuals, but that was the extent of it. You see?
21 Not a question of organised or KLA or anything like that at the time at
22 which we are concerned. That's my suggestion. We don't have time to go
23 into the reports, but if we look at your petition - I can make them
24 available to the Court, of course - this is what you said. The next
25 paragraph: "Brutal pressure of the Siptar chauvinists..."
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, Judge Kwon has inquired of me whether
2 the video was in fact played.
3 JUDGE KWON: Or did we hear anything?
4 MR. NICE: If you didn't hear anything that shouldn't
5 inconvenience the Court because, of course, of the transcript. I don't
6 know whether the soundtrack worked. It should have worked.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, we didn't hear anything.
8 JUDGE KWON: Some picture was portrayed in Sanction.
9 MR. NICE: Did you see a picture with -- or by my question, did
10 Your Honours hear sound?
11 [Videotape played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: The witness says there's no sound.
13 MR. NICE: Perhaps I can put the question built on the video so
14 that there can be no doubt the point I'm making.
15 Q. You still, Mr. Bulatovic, find an emotional thrill at the
16 contemplation of the last gasp of somebody who was killed 600 years ago,
17 and that's where you are lodged emotionally and, I'm going to suggest,
19 A. That's not true. This footage was taken by the BBC crew, but you
20 should be showing it in extenso, all of it, because I refused to give them
21 an interview because they wouldn't -- they didn't wish to go and conduct
22 the interview to a Serb village but I took them to the Serb village of
23 Crnoljevo, where there's not a single Serb house standing, where there are
24 no -- there's no Serb cemetery. It's all destroyed. And together we put
25 back the grave stones saying who was buried there. And they saw this, the
1 destroyed cemetery. All of this was filmed by the BBC. But it came and
2 went and then produced this programme which is tendentious. And this is
3 what I said, this speech of mine was said at the monument to the Kosovo
4 heroes, so that's where that speech was delivered, at the monument to the
5 Kosovo heroes. And I said that's where the two leaders, the two Tzars
6 were killed, Tzar Lazar and Tzar Murat. Now you seem to just focus on
7 Murat and present an impression to the public as if God knows what had
8 been said there. Everything that was said was honest and decent and
9 honourable at that monument.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... this petition that you signed
11 in 1985. Go, please, to the demands. You see here under 3 you were
12 pressing for the immediate expulsion of greater Albanian chauvinists who
13 you said were leading a rebellion.
14 4, to publicly state the names of the genocide project against us.
15 5, to deny further hospitality to Albanian immigrants.
16 6, to annul every contract buying or selling Serbian property.
17 And then 11 another hark back, just an example, to reconstruct the
18 personal files of the Albanian Nazi supporters in World War II.
19 This was as provocative a document as you could have signed,
20 wasn't it, Mr. Bulatovic?
21 A. No. First of all, you mentioned paragraph 3 here, and then you
22 simply said that the cadres, the officials from the province should be
23 made accountable, and that's not true. We asked for that -- those steps
24 to be taken not only with respect to the provincial officials but also the
25 republican ones, because of what was going on. They were working against
1 the Serbia in order to create the greater Albanian, and the republican
2 leadership did nothing to prevent that. That was the point we were
3 protesting. We were criticising the republican leadership more than the
4 provincial one. However, we didn't fail to criticise the provincial
5 leadership as well. That's why it was in the first place.
6 The second point was to protest what was going on in Kosovo, the
7 torching, the terror, and so on, and how that was covered up with
8 political speeches, how that would be prevented, how they would put an end
9 to it and so on --
10 Q. Very well, I'm going to have to --
11 A. -- and punish them. However, nobody was ever punished.
12 Q. Let's go back to the Kosovo Polje meeting just briefly. We've
13 heard evidence about it already. First of all, perhaps you would be good
14 enough to confirm that between the Monday meeting and the Friday meeting
15 while you were getting the people ready to come and speak, a
16 representative of the accused, Mica Jakovljevic, flew down and advised you
17 how to stage manage the event. In particular, advising you to have every
18 word recorded because the press or the various media communication would
19 take it. Do you remember that?
20 A. No. That's not true. That's a false statement. I don't even
21 know who Mica Jakovljevic is. You should verify. Perhaps this person has
22 just heard about me but he doesn't know me, if this refers to me.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's your answer, fine.
24 Azem Vllasi, a lawyer, then a political leader, he's a man of peace, isn't
25 he? He's not a man who has ever been engaged in or had suggestions made
1 against him that he's engaged in violence, has he?
2 A. As for Azem Vllasi, all of those who were in the leadership did
3 not personally participate in the violence. However, they protected those
4 who did. Why were people against Azem Vllasi? They were against him
5 because in certain of his public statements, he irritated the citizens.
6 For example, when the journalist Milic --
7 Q. He found himself against you, Solevic, and various other
8 physically very large men at that meeting in Kosovo Polje, and you large
9 men went on to lead demonstrations that bullied and terrorised political
10 leaders into surrender, and you did it on behalf of this accused; correct?
11 A. No. First of all, I personally do not know Azem Vllasi. I never
12 saw him in person. You can go and check with him whether we had ever met
13 or greeted each other or exchanged a single word. Never. So you have
14 false information. Somebody deceived you.
15 And as for the rest, the rallies that you are referring to, they
16 were scheduled by the people from the municipalities. In Central Serbia,
17 they didn't know what was actually going on, what things were done against
18 the Serbian people there. Therefore, in municipalities, various local
19 people wanted people to come and state that publicly, and this is why
20 these rallies were organised. There was no organisation standing behind
21 this. There were no nationalist organisations. It was the people. The
22 people asked for that.
23 And as for the petition and me signing the petition, you claimed
24 here that I was the first one to sign it, and I wasn't. I was the first
25 one to criticise the authorities. I always criticised the authorities,
1 and I do that nowadays. And I can tell you that as long as I have lived,
2 I have yet to see good people in power, that would do good for their
4 Q. One of your --
5 A. This petition is unimportant.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Miroslav Solevic is a very
7 good friend of yours. You and he are in a relation of Kum one to the
8 other, I can't remember which way around it is, and he has been seen
9 saying --
10 A. Yes, that's right. Both of these things are correct.
11 Q. -- with the makers of the film Death of Yugoslavia but the stones
12 were taken, the paving stones were taken, preparatory for use against the
13 police at Kosovo Polje. He's right about that, isn't he? Stones were
14 taken in order to make it a violent event.
15 A. Certainly not. Mr. Nice, you don't know Miroslav Solevic. It
16 would be good if you met him. Let me tell you straight away: There were
17 no stones there. It would be --
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
19 A. It's a ludicrous claim, just as to claim that you brought any
20 stones there. What they were doing was expanding the road.
21 MR. NICE: Yes. The AV booth we would need the sound on this,
23 [Videotape played]
24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "He brought his executive secretary.
25 He had the executive secretaries. The principal Serbs told them what to
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, do you need to interrupt now?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to interrupt because I'm
5 pointing to you a completely wrong translation. It says here that
6 Milosevic called his private secretary to relate this to Vllasi, and
7 Vllasi says that the executive secretary of the Central Committee came.
8 This is a huge difference whether this is the executive secretary of the
9 Central Committee, and there were several of them there, and their duty
10 was to travel regularly throughout the country. Milosevic had no private
11 secretary to send there. Once again, this is wrong translation in this
12 BBC footage. You can hear it for yourself. Vllasi, in Albanian, says
13 "sekretari eksekutiv," which is "executive secretary" in Albanian,
14 whereas it's translated as "private secretary." You constantly have wrong
15 translations here.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll keep that in mind, Mr. Milosevic, thank
18 [Videotape played]
19 MR. NICE:
20 Q. They were there just in case. He also says in an interview, the
21 same interview in another part, that they had young men there with
22 pistols, 2 or 300 young men there prepared to do anything. He's right
23 about that, isn't he? This was a planned, violent --
24 A. No.
25 Q. And you were a party to it.
1 A. No.
2 Q. Very well. I'm going to move on. If we look at --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, let me just get what the witness is
4 saying in response to your proposition.
5 In relation to the lorry full of stones, I believe you said
6 earlier in response to Mr. Nice that they were there for the roads. Would
7 you like to elaborate on that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, gentlemen of the Trial
9 Chamber, the nature of this person that we just saw, Miroslav Solevic, is
10 such that he always gave provocative and -- statements full of jokes to
11 the journalists, and that's his personal choice. You can ask him why he
12 did that. This has nothing to do with reality. If you find another --
13 another person in Kosovo Polje who can confirm this, I would be ready to
14 allow you to let me hang by the feet and let me hang here for seven hours
15 until my soul departs.
16 I told you the truth. The road was expanded there, and the area
17 around was not cleared. When the police -- I didn't see this,
18 Mr. Robinson. I was inside, and this was happening outside. Police
19 started beating people because there were around 20.000 people around the
20 culture hall. People started fleeing from the police until they reached
21 this construction material.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're saying that the comment that we saw
23 attributed to Miroslav Solevic, that was a comment that he made in a
24 jocular manner? He was joking.
25 A. Purely provocative.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what do you say to the other proposition by
2 Mr. Nice that there were other people there with pistols, about 200
3 people, young men, and they were armed?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police was of mixed composition
5 there. Had there been just a single person with a pistol he would have
6 been disarmed and beaten up. Just a single person with a pistol. So I
7 don't know where he came up with this story. I don't know how he came up
8 with something like this. This is completely untrue.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, you may be quite sure in this case --
12 A. This is something that is followed by the entire Serbia and
13 Montenegro and rest assured they know that this is not true. They know
15 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, you may rest assured that Mr. Solevic has been
16 asked whether he stands by the contents of his interviews and I would not
17 be asking you these questions in this particular case were that not --
18 were he not to have acknowledged that he does indeed stand by them.
19 I would like you to look at another document from Solevic for your
20 comments. It's a newspaper article that came out on the 10th of February,
21 of 1993 and I want your comment on just a couple passages in it.
22 I think the Chamber has looked at it before. I'm only putting it
23 as an easy way of putting the propositions. In this case I probably won't
24 ask for it to be exhibited but nevertheless it's a useful way of
25 approaching matters.
1 This is an interview by Slavko Curuvija, or, to be precise, the
2 late Slavko Curuvija and Milka Kovacic. And again so the Judges can have
3 a better feel for your community, can you just explain what happened to
4 Slavko Curuvija shortly after the start of the NATO bombing. He was a
5 journalist. What happened to him?
6 A. I can't answer that question. I lived in Kosovo Polje, or rather,
7 in Pristina. I have lived there for the last ten years and what I know
8 about that comes from the newspapers. I couldn't give you anything more
9 than that, gentlemen.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... by the secret police; is that
12 A. This is something for you to say. I can't say anything about
13 that, nothing at all, because --
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
15 A. -- I can't say something that I don't know.
16 Q. Look at the bottom of the first page, please. In the --
17 A. This is in English.
18 Q. You should have got the -- at the bottom you should have got the
19 -- if the usher would be good enough to take the --
20 A. I was in hospital at the time.
21 Q. Yes, but this is what your very good friend Solevic said about
22 Novi Sad. You can see on the bottom left-hand corner in your version the
23 question, "It's well known what happened in Novi Sad," and Solevic replied
24 this: "Other things are well known too. The rallies started and brought
25 down the --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, we have -- we haven't found it.
2 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. In your version it's the first page in the
3 English. It's the third document, I'm told. It's got the words "Feature
4 11" in the top right-hand corner, and it's dated the 10th of February,
5 1993. Sorry not to have dealt with that more carefully. And it's towards
6 the bottom of the page where Solevic said this: "Other things are known,
7 too. The rallies started and brought down the leaderships of Vojvodina
8 and Montenegro." Sorry.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Neither of the two.
11 MR. NICE:
12 Q. "The rallies started and brought down the leaderships of Vojvodina
13 and Montenegro. We had prepared everything to overthrow the Bosnian
14 leadership too. We thought that the thing would be carried out the
15 easiest over there. But Sloba and Serbian leadership asked us to give up
16 Jajce. It was a mistake that he stopped us. He could, as he had done up
17 to that point, played dumb at their pressure, until we wipe off Bosnia."
18 Now, Mr. Bulatovic, again I'm looking at the integration of all
19 these matters together; your Serb nationalist activities and changes in
20 Montenegro, Vojvodina, and in Bosnia. Will you confirm, please, that
21 there was indeed a planned rally at Jajce in Bosnia?
22 A. This is the first time that I'm hearing about such a rally, and we
23 are best men, we are Kums. It is true, though, that he lives nowadays in
24 Nis and I live elsewhere, but this is the first time that I hear about
25 this rally in Jajce.
1 As I've told you, he had a tendency to joke when giving
2 statements, and it would be best if the Tribunal were to call him here to
3 clarify this. I don't know about this.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Tribunal to decide. You have
5 no reason to doubt what he says about a planned demonstration in Jajce, do
6 you? And I must suggest to you a little more why it didn't happen. See
7 if this jogs your memory.
8 Drasko Milicevic, coordinator for the Central Committee,
9 communicated between you and the Central Committee and thus this accused,
10 isn't that right?
11 A. I don't know the man.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and the planned demonstration
13 at Jajce --
14 A. I don't remember any Drasko.
15 Q. -- was cancelled because at that time the accused communicated to
16 you demonstrators that he wanted the Bosnian votes and that he wouldn't
17 get the Bosnian votes if -- that he needed in the Presidency or in the
18 committee, I'm not sure which, but he wouldn't get the Bosnian votes if
19 that demonstration went ahead, and that's why it was cancelled and that's
20 why Solevic said it was cancelled. Does that refresh your memory?
21 A. Mr. Nice, you're asking me about things that I know nothing
22 about. I don't know anything about that portion. You're not asking me
23 about what I testified about here. You're not trying to verify whether I
24 said something that wasn't true.
25 As for these other things, I can't testify about that. You should
1 ask Solevic why he gave these interviews and why he mentioned this rally
2 in Jajce. As far as I know, that rally was never organised, nor was its
3 organisation ever discussed. He called me Colonel. That was the name
4 that he used for me. And after that, the people started using that in a
5 jocular way, in a fun way. That's his nature. He likes to joke with
6 people. But there was no ill intention there. He never hurt anybody.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Chamber would go on to the
8 second -- the next page, rather, and the witness would stay with the
9 passage of the text a little further on. He says as to the rift of the
10 rally staff that Solevic said he wanted to dissolve the rally staff, that
11 no decision could be taken without Kosta, Bosko, Dusko Ristic and himself.
12 Milosevic said no, i.e., that the rally staff should not be disbanded but
13 then a month later said that it should be. Does that fit with your
14 recollection of history, that eventually it was the accused himself who
15 insisted that the rally staff be disbanded? Is that right?
16 A. There was neither any staff -- I know nothing about that. This is
17 the first time I hear of that staff. You keep using the words
18 nationalists and group of nationalists, Mr. Nice. Such group never
19 existed. Had it existed I would have known about it.
20 Q. A couple more questions because I don't have any more time
21 although I have a lot more I would like to ask you. To take Vojvodina as
22 an example, the way your demonstrations worked is this: Mob rule on
23 streets, political pressure from Belgrade, came together to frighten the
24 leaders into giving up. That's what you did, wasn't it? I'm not quoting
25 from the article, I'm putting a proposition to you.
1 A. This term you're using, "mob," to refer to the people, to people
2 looking for salvation, I think is offensive. However, this is not your
3 term, it wasn't coined by you, it was coined by the political leadership
4 of Kosovo. The defenseless people they referred to as mob, these
5 defenseless people who only asked to have equal status. I would kindly
6 ask you not to refer to them as a mob. It was not a mob. These were just
7 misfortunate people.
8 Let me tell you what happened on the 17th of March, 2004. Do you
9 think that that was the mob or the people asking to be helped? The KFOR
10 was there, the representatives of the UN were there, and all the while
11 they were going on with killing people and destroying their homes, and you
12 think that they're all mob?
13 Q. To take an example of Vojvodina, a province with a long history of
14 autonomy, dating back to the Austro-Hungarian times, seen throughout
15 Yugoslavia as a model of interethnic co-existence and a place where the
16 Serbs were, by the relevant time, about two-thirds majority, was a place
17 that you invaded on 13 different demonstrations, you and your group, I
18 don't mean you necessarily on every one, on the last time settling in for
19 two full days. Do you remember that?
20 A. I don't know about that. I attended the first rally, which was
21 not really a rally, but what happened was that 2.000 groups -- 2.000 Serbs
22 went to the Assembly of Serbia in order to inform them about the position
23 of the Serbian people in Kosovo and Metohija and to ask Vojvodina as a
24 province, which supported the authorities because of its own interests,
25 without knowing what the authorities in Kosovo and Metohija were in fact
1 supporting and how they were ignoring the terror against the Serbian
2 people in Kosovo and Metohija. They didn't let us enter the Assembly
3 building. They didn't give us any water or provide any power to us.
4 Nobody went there to bring down the authorities. They did that themselves
5 through their positions and views.
6 Q. I asked you when I first asked you questions what on earth --
7 A. Krunic and the company.
8 Q. -- what on earth right Kosovo Serbs had to be bringing down
9 political leaders in Montenegro and in Vojvodina and I must suggest to you
10 the answer is that this was not just limited to Kosovo Serbs --
11 A. The Kosovo Serbs did not do that.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The Kosovo Serbs did
13 not do that.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Find the footage -- find the footage
15 showing that where their authorities toppled the authorities and see if
16 there was a single person from Kosovo present there. There was nobody
17 there, Mr. Nice, and you can bring out any kind of ridiculous accusations
19 Q. The man you say in your own interview "soared to the throne on the
20 shoulder of the Serbian resistance movement" was never a leader with an
21 ideological platform but he was a man whose taste for power you stimulated
22 by letting him espouse your cause. That's right, isn't it?
23 A. Nobody joined us. Your claims are tendentious. Nobody joined us
24 in achieving our interests. We asked him to come, and later on we asked
25 Dr. Zoran Grujic to come to Kosovo Polje. And now that you have
1 mentioned, I have to mention him, too, Mr. Azem Vllasi, Kole Shiroka, Agim
2 Heripi [phoen], that entire group which sat with him in the culture hall
3 in Kosovo Polje, listening to what these unfortunate people were saying.
4 Over 70 speakers informed them about everything that was done against the
5 Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija. However, you do not care about that. All
6 you care are the quotations showing this or that. Well, we were not
7 lawyers, we could not write this document any better than we did. We did
8 it in the best way we could. However, we addressed certain people that we
9 expected would help us.
10 Now, let me tell you this: The Albanians in Kosovo, if certain of
11 their rights were violated, why didn't they write a petition to them and
12 have this issue raised of --
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
14 A. -- what rights of theirs were violated? They did not have a
15 single reason to complain.
16 Q. We don't have time to go into everything, but don't you remember
17 after 1981, the students' demonstration, the one that may have been
18 generated by the KGB or by some other intelligence agency, the students
19 indeed did petition against the oppressive response of the authorities.
20 Don't you remember that? Don't you remember the 1981 students' petition
21 complaining at the wrong treatment of the students?
22 A. These are fewer manipulations. What KGB are you talking about?
23 The CIA had its fingers there and it's all coming to surface now. At the
24 time we didn't know that. Now we're knowing where worm had come from.
25 The rotten apple was placed in a bushel of good apples and it turned the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 entire bushel rotten and we are just learning about this now.
2 Q. When you spoke in your interview of letting the genie out of the
3 bottle, that was a phrase that gave way to the truth, wasn't it? By your
4 actions you let this accused out and into positions of power by which he
5 did enormous damage to the former Yugoslavia, and you know that it's in
6 part your responsibility for having given him power.
7 A. Well, now you are bringing up this minor provocation which was
8 used in order to prompt the leadership to take even minor steps in Kosovo
9 and now you're saying that this is why Yugoslavia fell apart? No. If you
10 had not interfered, Yugoslavia would still be existing now.
11 Sir, Yugoslavia was destroyed by those who created it, those who
12 signed the Versailles treaty, and later on those who were figures in the
13 Second World War. Those are the people who destroyed Yugoslavia. Tito in
14 Jajce divided Yugoslavia based on national principles, and he created
15 these two provinces within Serbia. Dalmatia, Lika, and Krajina and Banija
16 were not created as provinces, were not established as provinces.
17 Mr. Nice, this is tendentiously aimed against Serbian nation and
18 Serbian state.
19 Q. My last question --
20 A. Baranja was taken away from Serbia and Vojvodina and given to
21 Croatia and it had never been part of Croatia before. Do you think that
22 that was the right decision?
23 Q. My last question, totally different, matter of credit only, it's
24 to do with your conduct in this courtroom. I just simply remind you that
25 throughout your answers you've referred to the accused as "Mr. President,"
1 you've used either the term "Mr." for the Judges - once you referred to
2 His Honour Judge Robinson as Judge Robinson - and you've referred to them
3 as the "gentlemen of the Court."
4 When you first came here, and you can obviously read, you didn't
5 read the words on the card of the solemn declaration and you gave your own
6 format of wording. Was that intentional?
7 A. No. When I give an oath -- are you referring to the oath? Is
8 that what you're referring to?
9 Q. Yes. I'm wondering why you didn't --
10 A. When I give an oath, gentlemen, I -- in the end I read that text,
11 but prior to that I swore to my faith. I swore on my dignity and on my
12 honour that I would say the truth, and following that I read out the text
13 that the usher gave me, the Tribunal's text. So my intentions were the
14 most honourable ones, and I fully -- I expressed my full respect to this
15 Tribunal, both to Mr. Robinson and to Mr. Kwon and to Mr. Bonomy. I
16 expressed my deepest --
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
18 A. -- respect, and I don't think that I hurt or offended this
19 Tribunal in any way, nor you, for that matter, regardless of the fact that
20 you put some provocative and tendentious questions to me. But that
21 doesn't matter. You're a Prosecutor. Perhaps you're entitled to that and
22 I can understand that.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... this Court, do you?
24 A. Do you mean --
25 MR. KAY: Is this relevant?
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, we are near the time. We are beyond
2 the time for the break. What is the question you're asking?
3 MR. NICE: Does he accept the legality of this Court.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I don't think we need to go into that,
5 Mr. Nice, at this stage.
6 We'll take the break now for 20 minutes. And when we come back,
7 we'll deal with the documents which you wish to have exhibited.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
11 MR. NICE: Exhibits. The '94 petition.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Which one is that?
13 MR. NICE: That's the first document we looked at today, to which
14 reference is made in the 1994 newspaper article, which was the second
15 document we looked at today and which, as His Honour Judge Kwon observed,
16 has the witness acknowledging that he was the first signatory of the
17 petition. I'd ask for those to be produced.
18 JUDGE KWON: You are not minded to tender the petition of January
20 MR. NICE: Your Honour is absolutely right. That was on the last
21 occasion. Yes, that should be the first exhibit, the petition of 1986,
22 yes, please.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will admit that.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be 859.
25 MR. NICE: I'm grateful for being reminded about that. Then the
1 petition of 1994.
2 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, could I deal with the objections in
3 relation to that matter?
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 MS. HIGGINS: The document referred to by Mr. Nice referring to
6 the 1994 petition, I think there may be some confusion relating to this
7 document. The answer when the witness was first presented with the
8 document was that he was not the first signatory and his answer was that
9 he couldn't remember signing the document. Your Honour Judge Kwon
10 referred to the interview with Mr. Bulatovic where there was reference to
11 Mr. Bulatovic being the first signatory to the letter or, rather, the new
12 petition, and the answer in relation to that, it was my recollection, was
13 that this witness spoke to the 1986 petition but did not speak to and had
14 nothing to do with the 1994 petition. I stand to be corrected if that's
15 not right, but that was my recollection, Your Honour, concerning that
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think his answer overall might have
19 started off by saying he didn't remember signing that petition or being
20 the first person to sign it but eventually he wasn't challenging the
21 possibility that he had done. After all, his answers in the newspaper
22 interview, which he did not say were fictional or untrue, are quite clear
23 that he was acknowledging signing that document. It's unfortunate that
24 the only copy we've been able to obtain doesn't have the first signature
25 but starts at number 6, but in my submission there is plenty of connecting
1 material for there this petition to go in. And in any event, it is a
2 document of significance in the chronology of events because the existence
3 of that petition as part of the pressure that the witness acknowledged he
4 was applying to the Serb leadership is an important part of the
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Looking at the document as a whole and the
7 evidence as a whole in terms of the witness's testimony, we'll admit it.
8 MR. NICE: I'm grateful.
9 JUDGE KWON: Number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 860.
11 MR. NICE: Then the interview with the witness on the 21st of
12 October of 1994 in Nin newspaper or magazine, may that be admitted.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll admit that.
14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the next document --
15 THE REGISTRAR: 861.
16 MR. NICE: The next document to which I turned was the English
17 translation of the document put in by the accused a couple of weeks ago,
18 which was the 1985 petition. I'm neutral as to whether the translation
19 which we provided goes in as part of his exhibit, which was entirely
20 untranslated, or if it should go in separately as our exhibit. It may be
21 that in case there is ever a question on some aspect of the translation
22 it's better it goes in as our exhibit, although it's duplication of the
24 JUDGE KWON: Excerpts from Sleepless Nights.
25 MR. NICE: Yes. Ms. Dicklich says that in fact the petition,
1 although looked at and referred to by the witness in the course of his
2 evidence being led wasn't produced, so that therefore the 1985 petition
3 should go in as a Prosecution Exhibit, please.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll admit that.
5 THE REGISTRAR: 862.
6 MR. NICE: The next document, I think, was the -- the next
7 physical document was the interview record with Miroslav Solevic, as I
8 explained to you, that's been looked at before and not admitted. I'm --
9 obviously I would prefer it to be an exhibit because it's a
10 contemporaneous or more contemporaneous record of interviews but I'm in
11 the Court's hands on that one.
12 MS. HIGGINS: Yes.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. -- We will not admit this one.
14 MR. NICE: The video of Solevic talking about the stones we've
15 looked at before, and again I'm not going to press that in light of the
16 Court's earlier approach to that. The witness had an opportunity of
17 seeing it and commented on it, and he didn't deny that the things were
18 said, he gave an explanation for their being said but that's that.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will not admit this one.
20 MR. NICE: There was a very short extract of a BBC programme. The
21 witness objected to its being selected. You'll remember it is the short
22 passage where he expresses his emotions at the death of somebody on a
23 battlefield 600 and more years ago. In fact I only played that short
24 extract for want of time. We have, if the accused or the witness wants to
25 see it, what we believe to be all the parts of that programme that have
1 him speaking. That apart, but I simply make that clear that's available
2 if anybody wants to see it, but my request is that the passage that was
3 played should be exhibited, that single clip.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes --
5 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- just only that part. Ms. Higgins.
7 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, on behalf of the assigned counsel we do
8 query the relevance of that and we note that it was only a small extract,
9 which is of concern.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We hear you, Ms. Higgins, but we'll admit it.
11 MR. NICE: And I think that's all.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be 863.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In order to admit that excerpt from
15 Mr. Bulatovic's interview, the BBC clip, I mean, I think it would only be
16 fair to play it for Mr. Bulatovic so he can hear what he says. He could
17 not hear what he said, and you cannot really rely on the English
18 translation in the subtitles, and it was incorrect many times. So this
19 was not the usual procedure that was applied. Actually, the witness did
20 not see the exhibit in a language that he understands.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Bulatovic.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to say that if the BBC played
24 only that -- I don't know what they played, but if they played only that,
25 that is purely tendentious because I took them to -- so that they could
1 see a Serb village, and there is nothing left of that Serb village there.
2 Not a single stone was left there. The cemetery was razed. The houses
3 were razed. And they cut out all of that, apparently, and they only
4 showed what I said by the monument where the two rulers had been killed,
5 and it's only natural that any people will defend their own state.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you can have it played in
7 re-examination if you wish.
8 Your re-examination, is there any?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Robinson, very briefly.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please commence.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you. I thought that you
12 wished to finish something else before I started.
13 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to clarify one thing,
15 Mr. Bulatovic. What Mr. Nice said to you when you say -- he said that
16 when you say "Siptar" that you offend Albanians. Did you ever hear anyone
17 insulting Albanians when they called them Siptars?
18 A. I never heard of any such thing in all my life, and I can take an
19 oath on -- as far as that is concerned. I can swear with my son's life.
20 God gave me a son only when I was 59, and I can swear on that only son's
21 life that I never heard of that as being offensive.
22 Q. Do you know that in the public gallery they have different
23 channels in terms of how they can listen to different languages? So the
24 channel number 3 is called "Shqip." That is the Albanian language on that
25 list of languages.
1 A. I never knew that, Mr. President.
2 Q. I assume that somebody from this administration wrote that list of
3 languages out. If you are insulting them when you say "Siptars," that
4 should mean that they also offend Albanians when they say "Sip."
5 Do you find that logical, Mr. Bulatovic?
6 A. I find that quite logical. I tell you I was totally perplexed
7 when I heard that question today. I know a whole army of Albanian people
8 in Kosovo and no one was ever offended when I said to them that they were
10 Q. All right. We are going to deal with this petition very briefly
11 now, the petition from the book called Sleepless Nights, and that is the
12 petition that you had signed. That is the petition from 1985.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. Nice quoted the second paragraph of that petition to you. It
15 wasn't very accurately translated, but I'm going to quote it yet again,
16 this second paragraph in the Serbian language, because the point was in
17 the use of the words "genocide" and "fascist." The second paragraph reads
18 as follows of this petition that you signed: "The situation in reality is
19 a terrible one. A part of Yugoslavia was occupied, part of our national
20 being, and genocide against us Serbs by Albanian fascism in Kosovo has
21 received the right to -- to exist."
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That's the sentence, and I'll go on. Before I put a question to
24 you now in relation to what Mr. Nice said, he said that you were a
25 nationalist because you mentioned genocide, I'm going to read out a
1 quotation to you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I have already quoted
3 that text. That is the text of Ivan Kristan, a Slovenian professor who
4 testified here, and this text comes from his article published in the
5 periodical called Socialism in 1981, that is to say four years before this
6 petition was sent.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. And in that article, Mr. Kristan says -- Please listen to this,
9 Mr. Bulatovic, very carefully.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please slow down. The
11 interpreters do not have the text.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the interpreters do not have the
13 text and they're asking you to slow down.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Robinson. I'm going
15 to read it very slowly and it's a very brief quotation anyway.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. "The irredentist aspirations of the Albanian nationalists in
18 Kosovo are not a recent development. Actually, they appear as the
19 extension of various quisling and fascist organisations that fought during
20 the war against the National Liberation Movement of the Yugoslav peoples,"
21 and so on and so forth.
22 So this would be my question, Mr. Bulatovic: Before you even
23 wrote this petition, was it not generally known that events in Kosovo and
24 Metohija were aimed at chauvinism, Albanian separatism, and the expulsion
25 of Serbs, that they were an extension of this Balist fascist movement
1 during the Second World War, they convey back to the times of Hitler and
3 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... leading or
4 tendentiously extended question and I'm not sure that any answer to it is
5 going to assist the Chamber very much. It's really the accused's
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the question is leading. You'll
8 have to reformulate it.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. All right. Mr. Bulatovic, you who wrote this petition, were you
11 the first to mention Balists and fascists carrying out genocide in Kosovo
12 and Metohija or was this mentioned very extensively?
13 A. A countless number of times in different newspapers this was
14 mentioned, and I know about it too. The first day when I testified here,
15 Mr. Robinson, I pointed out that during the war, rather towards the end of
16 the Second World War, Fadil Hoxha transferred all of them -- sorry, not
17 all of them. They called themselves Balists. They were fascists. He
18 managed to get some of them to join the partisan movements, and then they
19 came to join the partisan communist movements in Drenica. That is how
20 they operated and that is how Zenel Hajdini detachment was established and
21 Fadil Hoxha was its commander.
22 This detachment had only three Serbs; Darlic [phoen], Lakicovic
23 [phoen] and Mihailo Radulovic Kacak. All three of them had Albanian
24 names. Had they known who these three men were, they would have killed
25 all of them. That is why Vuko Popovic, a commander of a partisan
1 detachment in Drenica was killed. When they realised that the commander
2 was a Serb at the first meeting of their staff, they killed him. So they
3 simply changed sides and they came to join the Communist Party after
4 having been fascists. They functioned after the Second World War as they
5 did, but people are the way they are, and they could not have assumed all
6 of these things. And it was only in the 1970s that we realised where this
7 worm came from, as it were, and no one would -- no one would ever have
8 thought of them joining the ranks of terrorists. No one could realise
9 that that would happen.
10 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, Mr. Nice quoted a few paragraphs of this petition
11 to you, though incompletely. So I will go through these paragraphs in
12 order to see whether this is some kind of a Serbian nationalist claim.
13 Paragraph 1 reads as follows: "They should put on the agenda
14 certain claims." Obviously you are addressing the two parliaments. You
15 want the parliaments to deal with them.
16 A. That was the objective of the petition. We expected them to have
17 extraordinary sessions, special sessions of the Assembly devoted to that
18 and that they would discuss the matters raised in the petition.
19 Q. So in this petition you ask for the parliaments to place these
20 questions on their agendas.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The first demand, number one, says here: "To carry out our basic
23 human rights on the basis of the SFRY constitution and international
24 conventions and which have absolutely been denied us." Is that the first
25 demand that you had?
1 A. Yes, that's the first demand in its entirety. We did not ask for
2 any more rights than other people but we did not agree to lesser rights
3 either and we did not want anybody to terrorise us or persecute us.
4 Q. All right, Mr. Bulatovic. Mr. Nice says that you asked for
5 removals, et cetera, et cetera, and that is paragraph 3: "To immediately
6 remove from the authorities of the province and the republic and to hold
7 accountable Greater Albanian chauvinists who are in charge of the
8 rebellion in Kosovo and who want to make it possible for Greater Albanian
9 chauvinists to take over Yugoslavia. We ask for them to be held
10 responsible, and also cadres of Serb ethnicity who are serving this
12 So is that the point, to make it impossible for Greater Albanian
13 separatists to function, regardless of whether this has to do with
14 commission or non-commission on the part of Albanians or Serbs?
15 A. They should be held responsible before the authorities, and all of
16 those who tacitly supported all of this against the Serbian people. Like
17 Fadil Hoxha. He was the main person in charge of this ideology that was
18 carried through in Kosovo and Metohija. Perhaps it's shameful that I'm
19 talking about a dead man this way, so it wouldn't be right to speak of a
20 dead person in this way.
21 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, Mr. Nice said that you advocated the expulsion of
22 Albanians from Kosovo and Metohija. Paragraph 5 reads as follows. I'm
23 going to read it: "That no hospitality should be offered to emigres from
24 Albania who settled as of the 6th of April 1941 to the present day,
25 regardless of whether they came to settle under Mussolini's programme or
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 later on according to Enver Hoxha's programme."
2 Mr. Bulatovic, are you asking that the Albanians be expelled from
3 Kosovo or are you asking that hospitality be withheld to immigrants from
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.
6 MR. NICE: Before that question is answered, what was said in
7 relation to the expulsion of Kosovo Albanians was not spoken of in respect
8 of the period 1985 but of course in respect of much later. I observe, I
9 don't object to the questions being asked, but simply for the sake of the
10 Court's record, that lack of time meant I certainly didn't address every
11 issue in this petition which was first raised in the course of
12 examination-in-chief and dealt with very briefly, and I certainly didn't
13 deal one way or another with the propositions advanced by Enver Hoxha and
14 it certainly shouldn't be interpreted as our accepting what is said here
15 about Enver Hoxha. I make no points beyond that.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you.
17 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.
18 Answer the question, Mr. Bulatovic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What we demanded was this: That
20 from -- that the Albanian emigrants be sent back from Kosovo and Metohija
21 who came in to settle there, and the main violence came from them. The
22 Albanians who were autochthonous and lived there for three centuries and
23 were born there, they wanted to stir them up and work for their Albanian
24 separatist positions. So we know where the harm was coming from. We knew
25 where the rotten apple had come from and we wanted to get rid of the
1 rotten apple so that the people who had lived there forever could continue
2 to live in peace.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, the point of the quotation I read out, would it be
5 this: To deny hospitality to those who came in pursuant to Mussolini and
6 Enver Hoxha's programmes; is that right? Nobody else, it didn't refer to
7 anybody else.
8 A. No, nobody else, that's quite clear.
9 Q. Now, since Mr. Nice brought this up a moment ago and said that you
10 later on demanded the colonisation, although that word was never used, I'm
11 going to quote point 7, what you in fact demanded. That is all listed in
12 point 7: "We demand that under the supervision of the republican and
13 federal authorities without fail we see the return of expelled Serb
14 families," that that be enabled.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So does this refer to the return of the Serb families who were
17 expelled from Kosovo during the terror waged by the Albanian separatists,
18 regardless of whether it took place during Mussolini after World War II
19 but it referred to people who were expelled from Kosovo and Metohija?
20 A. Mr. President, Mr. Robinson and Your Honours the Judges in the
21 Trial Chamber, what we demanded was that all expulsed Serbs be allowed to
22 return, all the Serbs who had to leave the area as a result of Albanian
23 and Balist terrorists, and after World War II there was terror and the
24 terrorists expelled them. They were working under cover and worked
25 individually to begin with. So we did not demand any people who were
1 living there as peacefully, autochthonous people who were born there, we
2 had no problems with those people. But others were given support by the
3 fascists, the Balists, they gained support, and that was where the problem
4 came from and that's what ultimately led to the war as well.
5 Had the petition been placed on the agenda perhaps a lot of what
6 subsequently happened might have been avoided and everybody would have
7 been satisfied but nobody batted an eye to this petition. We could have
8 written a hundred petitions, whereas nobody prevented Albanians, if they
9 had been damaged in any way or disadvantaged, to write their own petition
10 and address it to the same leadership and then we would see whether they
11 would have taken any steps if they had done that, but they didn't do
12 that. They sought assistance from forces outside the country. We, on the
13 other hand, were aboveboard and asked assistance for the powers that be in
14 the country.
15 Q. Very well. Now, in your petition do you see anything there -- can
16 you quote any passage there, any of your demands which would be
17 discriminatory towards the Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija?
18 A. Certainly not. There's none of that there. There's nothing like
19 that there. They attacked me and criticised me for the speech I held in
20 Studenica on the 18th of May 1986, for example, to mark the celebrations
21 of 800 years of Studenica itself, and Mr. Azem Vllasi, the then-president
22 of the provincial committee of the League of Communists of Kosovo at the
23 time asked the state security service to send them the contents of the
24 speech that was delivered by Kosta Bulatovic in Studenica. He thought
25 that I might have said something against the Albanian people. And when he
1 received the text of my speech, and I have it in my attache case if you
2 want me to read it out before the Trial Chamber for the purpose of truth
3 so that we can complete all this -- complete this discussion, when he read
4 the text of the speech he just stood there and said, well, I really have
5 nothing to say, because he was told by his associates something else and
6 he said I have no criticisms to make of the speech. That's what Azem
7 himself said, and you can ask him whether he had any criticisms of my
8 speech delivered at the Studenica monastery at the celebrations there.
9 Q. Very well. Now, Mr. Bulatovic, Mr. Nice said, and I made a note
10 of that, in asking you a question or making a comment of his own, I don't
11 remember that detail now, anyway he said that in 1995 I started attacking
12 the Kosovo Albanians in response to your petition and the demands you laid
13 down. And similarly, he said that there were individual violence, that
14 there was no organised violence.
15 Now, do you know anything about the organising of an illegal
16 Albanian SUP in Kosovo and Metohija? Do you know anything about that?
17 A. Well, I don't meddle with intelligence services. I don't
18 associate with them.
19 Q. I'm not talking about intelligence services, I'm talking about
20 public information.
21 A. Well, publicly speaking, we saw that there were things that were
22 happening that had been organised. We even saw footage from Cicavica and
23 a teacher there and what happened to him, but I think that the whole of
24 Europe saw that footage when this person made a statement, he was armed
25 and wearing a uniform, and we couldn't believe that that had happened. We
1 thought that it was individuals who were doing things like that, just as
2 Mr. Nice has been saying. But after that television footage, we became
3 aware that there was a dangerous organisation afoot and that radical
4 measures were unavoidable and that ultimately this would lead to war in
5 Kosovo and Metohija because it was their aim to bring about a war with the
6 help of people from outside, and that is what came to pass. Now, I'm a
7 man of the people. I'm not a politician. But I was part of the politics
8 that went on there and of course we weren't satisfied with the solutions
9 and with the situation. We thought that if we went to our leadership,
10 they would take steps to better our lot.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We want shorter answers.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, gentlemen, I'd like
13 to draw your attention to the fact that during the testimony of Judge
14 Danica Marinkovic, an exhibit contained in tab 4 during her testimony
15 contained an indictment against members of the illegal SUP in Kosovo and
16 Metohija, and among other things, I have it here once again, the number is
17 KT, that is the Prosecution number, 101/94 is the number of that document
18 I'm referring to. It is a criminal report dated 1994 in the Prosecution,
19 and it could not have been the product of something that took place, as
20 Mr. Nice said, in 1995 because it was a 1994 document. So if something
21 precedes a date cannot be the result and consequence of something that
22 happened if it happened before the event itself. And this has been
23 tendered into evidence and admitted into evidence.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I ask you, Mr. Bulatovic, that since this is a public trial, do
1 you happen to remember that a large number of members belonging to the
2 illegal SUP were uncovered and they were working to create armed
3 formations in order to cut Kosovo and Metohija off from the rest of the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you, that's my question.
7 A. That was public. Nothing was clandestine there.
8 Q. I'm not saying that it was clandestine. All the trials were
9 public and open.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You have the document in English, it
11 has been translated, and you'll be able to find it, gentlemen, in tab 4.
12 It is within Judge Danica Marinkovic's testimony and the documents
13 produced there.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Now, Mr. Nice said that I met your demands. Now, I'm asking you
16 this: Since he said that I met your demands and that the consequence of
17 that was that many Albanians were killed and expelled -- that's what
18 Mr. Nice said, words to that effect. Now, tell me this: Were your
19 demands to kill any Albanians?
20 A. Far from it. I said in my statement, and I address myself to
21 Mr. Robinson, I said that we did not ask anything, any reprisals against
22 anybody because evil begets evil and we would have been doing evil to
23 ourselves. So we never opted for that road.
24 Q. Very well, Mr. Bulatovic, so your demands were not that Albanians
25 should be killed. Now, were your demands that the Albanians should be
2 A. No, we didn't have that demand either.
3 Q. So you didn't want them to be expelled or killed, did you?
4 A. No, never.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly be asked to slow down,
7 thank you, and make pauses between question and answer.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, did you hear that from the
9 interpreters? And Mr. Bulatovic. You have to observe a pause between
10 question and answer in the interests of the interpretation.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, Mr. Nice said that there was no organised violence.
13 Now we can see that the illegal MUP was organised and had been organised.
14 Now, what else was organised? Did they organise dismissal or removal from
15 people leaving their jobs to form separatist movements?
16 A. Yes. There were -- that did happen en masse and we were
17 astonished to see this process taking place. We wondered who was
18 supporting it and how this came about and what was happening in our
19 country. Without any reason at all, people were leaving schools, they
20 were leaving their jobs. At the various institutions very few people
21 remained. People were leaving the municipality. There was nobody to
22 replace them in their work posts. Quite simply, we were taken aback.
23 What was all that about? What was happening? And that was the truth of
25 Q. Very well. Now, since throughout that time you lived in Kosovo
1 yourself, you were there, were you able to notice any measures of
2 discrimination towards Albanians on the part of the Serb authorities or
3 from the Serbs themselves?
4 A. Mr. President and Mr. Robinson, the Albanians in Kosovo and
5 Metohija enjoyed beneficial rights and positions everywhere. I remember
6 when I was a young man Rade Jekenovic [phoen], for example, somebody from
7 my village, was president of the party and he assigned -- he gave me an
8 assignment. There was an officer from Belgrade, his name was Popovic, and
9 he brought a football and told us to go to an Albanian village and play
10 football together with their children so that they would socialise with us
11 and be friends with us and we wanted to demonstrate this by playing
12 football with them. It was difficult to get them to go to school at all
13 and study, and that's the truth of it. Now it turns out that we exercised
14 terror over them. It was quite two reverse opinions, two opposite
16 Q. Very well. Mr. Nice asked you why you reacted emotionally to the
17 death of the Turkish Tzar Murat. Now, I didn't understand the question
18 fully but he did show you some sort of footage. So might we have that
19 same footage shown that we can all see your reactions to the death of the
20 Turkish Tzar whose name was Murat and who died almost 620 years ago.
21 A. Two rulers died on that occasion. The Serb Tzar or, rather,
22 Prince Lazar, and the Turkish Tzar Murat. They were both killed. And
23 I've never seen this.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. You are quoting folklore there. It is an epic poem that you are
2 in fact quoting.
3 A. Yes, by Radovan Becirevic, who wrote the famous epic poem The
4 Battle of Kosovo Polje. So I quoted from his epic poem to celebrate this
5 event, and shame be on the journalist from Great Britain for having
6 presented this in this way.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was the journalist made aware that you were
8 quoting from this epic poem?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I just said it was a poet who
10 wrote that epic poem, and I was quoting the verses. In the Serbian
11 language, of course.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. In Serbian we can see that it is a poem because we have rhymes
14 there, whereas the journalist was -- well, yes. You were reciting the
15 epic poem. He was taken to the spot where this took place and then you
16 were in fact reciting the poem, were you not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Right. We have dealt with that exhibit. You can introduce it
19 into evidence as much as you like, but this just shows the nature of the
20 exhibits that you have before you.
21 A. Yes. They're quite unimportant.
22 Q. Well, I don't think they're unimportant. I think they're
23 important because they were used tendentiously.
24 A. Ah, yes, you're right there.
25 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it may be that the whole object ought to
1 be seen by the accused or others in order to be seen whether this is used
2 tendentiously or simply to reflect what this witness in that programme was
3 seeking to do.
4 My position, as always, is that I'm so pressed for time I simply
5 can't take extended periods of time with material like this. It's
6 available if they want to see it.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, I'm beginning to be disturbed by the
8 constant references to the pressure of time. We have been at pains, and
9 obviously are not succeeding in satisfying everyone, but at pains to try
10 to give both parties equivalent time to present their cases, and that is
11 because everyone understands the difficulty of dealing with a trial of
12 this magnitude within a reasonable time, and it's for the parties to
13 select what they present.
14 Now, if you present a snippet of a film and then discover that
15 there's an answer to the point, then that's the end of it, surely. And it
16 is very disturbing then to hear a complaint that that's done simply for
17 lack of time. It's a matter of preparation and presentation of what will
18 be helpful to us, hopefully, within the time that has been fairly
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.
21 MR. NICE: It's not a complaint, simply a recognition of the
22 pressures that are on us. In an example like this, it's not a question of
23 saying, so far as I'm concerned, that there's an answer to the point we
24 made. I'm simply making the point in answer to the accused's assertion
25 that something has been taken out of context, that it's all available if
1 he wishes to see it.
2 I have always to decide how many of the issues that are available
3 can be explored in part or fully, and those are the difficulties under
4 which I labour. But it's certainly not a complaint, Your Honour, I'm just
5 simply identifying the realities. If I may say so, taking for example
6 this witness, there are many issues I haven't been able to explore with
7 them that I would like to have done. I've only identified one, which was
8 the Enver Hoxha point, for fear of there being an inference that by not
9 dealing with it I waived any objections to the point raised by the
10 witness, and I didn't seek to do any more than that. Again, this is not
11 in any sense a complaint, it's simply identifying from time to time the
12 problems and the possible solutions to them. But Your Honour, that's all
13 I have to say on it.
14 As to this particular clip, which is indeed very short, I don't
15 press any solution, I simply make the point that it is available if
16 anybody wanted to see it.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice. I don't think the case will
18 stand or fall on the basis of this clip and I certainly don't wish to hear
19 any more of it.
20 Mr. Milosevic.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, Mr. Nice claimed that I had sent some sort of
23 executive secretary from the Central Committee to tell you what you ought
24 to say at the meeting.
25 A. He gave the name.
1 Q. Yes, Mica Jakovljevic was the name.
2 A. I don't know that man.
3 Q. Very well. Regardless of whether you know him or not it's not
4 important at all.
5 Under the circumstances in which you lived, in the protests that
6 you expressed, was there anyone there who could have come from Belgrade --
7 was it possible for anyone to come from Belgrade and tell you what you
8 ought to say?
9 A. Well, had we heard that, we wouldn't have been in the situation
10 that we were in. We were simply lost people. We were wondering what to
11 do. We were sending petitions. Nobody paid attention to them. Protest
12 rallies were held wherever violence had been committed. For example, in
13 Prekale we held a protest rally and in that protest rally people spoke
14 out. I wasn't there in the village but that is the only village in the
15 world where under the pressure of Albanian fascists and nationalists they
16 put a board in the village where they wrote out names. Out of 22 Serb
17 houses, all were put on sale. The entire village was put on sale. I
18 don't think that there's another case like that in the world.
19 There was, for example, another photograph with a woman bearing a
20 weapon with two children following her having pitchforks and then two
21 girls carrying buckets for water. So this gives you an impression of what
22 kind of people lived there. This is simply something that defies
23 explanation. I would need at least two years to tell you about all of the
24 events, and we would need people to go to the site, to the locations there
25 and talk to the people who lived there in order to uncover the truth.
1 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, Mr. Nice said something about the rally in Kosovo
2 Polje and the time when the incident broke out between the police and the
3 citizens and said that this had been planned, the violence had been
4 planned. Do you know anything about that? Do you know about anyone
5 planning any violence?
6 A. I can guarantee you here before this Chamber, you can put me on
7 trial if anybody can substantiate and prove this. As for the jokes,
8 that's another matter. But seriously looking, that was impossible. I
9 lived in Kosovo Polje. How could something happen there without me
10 knowing about that, without other people knowing about that? This was a
11 joke, a pure joke and nothing more than a joke.
12 Q. Very well, Mr. Bulatovic. Mr. Nice said that 200 people had
13 pistols, that they were armed. First of all, tell us, did anybody fire
14 during that rally?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did anybody see or hear anybody having a pistol?
17 A. No. That is completely untrue. You have to realise something:
18 Had there been a single person with a weapon there, and police followed
19 and monitored everything closely, God knows what would have happened to
20 that person who was armed. There was undoubtedly no weapons there. I
21 told those people --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness can't really say whether anybody saw
23 or heard anybody having a pistol, but continue.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Is it beyond dispute that there was no use of weapons there?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Absolutely beyond dispute. This is a pure fabrication.
2 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, do you remember that in the papers a report of the
3 commission of the federal SUP was published about how the police used
4 force against citizens without justification. Do you remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, Mr. Nice asked you what right the Kosovo Serbs had
7 to topple the government in Vojvodina and Montenegro. When I -- did you -
8 and when I say you I don't mean just you personally, I mean other Kosovo
9 Serbs as well - did you ever go to topple the government in Montenegro?
10 A. God forbid.
11 Q. All right, Mr. Bulatovic. You didn't. Did you go to Montenegro
12 and Vojvodina seeking help?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In examination-in-chief when we discussed your activities, did we
15 have any questions regarding your visits to the leadership of Montenegro
16 where you sought help?
17 A. Yes. And we gave brief replies then to those questions. I can
18 repeat it again before the Trial Chamber. There were eight of us who went
19 to the Central Committee of Montenegro. We were supposed to meet with
20 Dobroslav Culafic, who was the president of the Central Committee of
21 Montenegro. Instead of him, the then-secretary of the Central Committee,
22 Vuksanovic, met with us, as did member of the Central Committee Angl
23 Kokovacovic [phoen]. The meeting lasted some two hours. We informed them
24 about everything that was being done against our people in Kosovo and
25 Metohija, and we asked him, can you help us in any way? Can you help us
1 in order to put an end to this so that we can survive in that area? If
2 you cannot help us, then just tell us. So tell us openly that you would
3 not support this so that we can all collectively move out.
4 This is the truth. This is why on the 20th of June, 1986, there
5 was a mass exodus, and the police stopped the column of people leaving. I
6 went to Belgrade on the first day, and the state security arrested me in
7 the house of Mijo -- Mijo in Baric. And I was already near Belgrade, and
8 the police halted the column of people leaving with their household goods
9 and so on. They didn't want the people leaving at the time, and now it
10 would suit them very well if those people left the territory, which is
11 going to happen in the nearest future. However, they will not blame a
12 group of nationalists for that as they did then.
13 Q. All right, Mr. Bulatovic. So you went to Montenegro in order to
14 inform the authorities of your problems. You had no intention to topple
15 any government.
16 A. Yes, precisely.
17 Q. All right. In the end, Mr. Nice told you that the student
18 demonstrations in 1981, allegedly 1981 demonstrations, broke out as a
19 result of repression against Albanians and students. Are you aware of any
20 repression that was carried out and that led the students to rebel, or do
21 you know the actual reasons of the 1981 demonstrations in Kosovo and
23 A. Mr. President, it is not true that there was any repression there.
24 The reason was that they, in those demonstrations, sought the status of
25 republic for Kosovo. Last time Tito was in Kosovo in the Grand Hotel it
1 seems that he said there will be no Greater Albania. Kosovo and Metohija
2 will not be detached from Serbia. You have to accept this, leave in peace
3 and be loyal citizens in this province and Serbia, and they were
5 When Tito died, after a year or so they organised these
6 demonstrations, Mr. Robinson. That's what they did. And they publicly
7 sought the status of republic for Kosovo. They never came out with a
8 claim that there was any terror against them, no. Their slogan was
9 "Kosovo Republic."
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I have no further
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Bulatovic, that concludes your testimony.
14 Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- and you may now leave.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. I would
18 like just to give a brief statement, with your leave. I would like to
19 address myself to the Trial Chamber before leaving for Montenegro, with
20 your permission. It is going to be very brief.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, gentlemen of the Trial
23 Chamber, before I go home I would like to tell you something. First of
24 all, in accordance with your decision of last week on Thursday, on the 5th
25 of May I am to return to Hague to answer charges for contempt of court.
1 Second, what I would like to state now is that I came here as a
2 Defence witness in the presentation of evidence of Mr. Milosevic with best
3 intention. Not even -- it did not even occur to me that any problems
4 could arise.
5 Three, in the presence of the president, Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, I
6 answered all questions, his questions and the Prosecutor's questions, and
7 I believe that I expressed my respect to all of the parties here.
8 Fourth, in the absence of the president, Mr. Milosevic, therefore,
9 in totally -- under totally new circumstances, I could not continue
11 Five, my intention was not to obstruct or slow down in any way the
12 proceedings. On the contrary, my intention from the very beginning was
13 and remains to contribute to the establishing of truth and insist in the
14 administration of justice in fair -- in a fair situation. The justice and
15 dignity are the most important principles for me, and after two weeks I'm
16 going home with a completely clear conscience, realising that I have
17 fulfilled my obligation with respect to the truth, to the justice, to my
18 people, to my country and my president.
19 In the end, I would like to avail myself of this opportunity to
20 wish all the best to my president Mr. Milosevic, hoping to see him soon in
22 I would like to thank you for your patience for having listened to
23 me, because I'm not a politician and it is probable that I did not always
24 express myself in the best possible way and was perhaps sometimes too
25 long. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic. You may leave.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 MR. NICE: May I deal with an administrative matter related to an
4 earlier witness's exhibits to use this time while this witness is
6 The Chamber will recall Exhibits 856 and 856.1 in the evidence of
7 Dobricanin were documents prepared by my learned friend Mr. Saxon,
8 analysing findings about fingerprints according to contemporaneous
9 documents. Mr. Saxon has diligently gone through the material and found
10 that there are --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, Mr. Nice.
12 MR. NICE: Sorry.
13 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
14 MR. NICE: Has found that there are two names that he omitted from
15 the first versions of these documents, and with your leave I substitute
16 for 856 and 856.1, new versions of those documents. If we distribute them
17 you will see where the two additional names are. They're on the first
18 page and they're numbers about six and seven on that page. The additional
19 references can be seen on the first page.
20 Two names, about six and seven, and the fact that they've been
21 recorded on the document itself so I hope that the record will not be
22 confusing at any stage. Mustafa Asllani and Hakip Imeri are the two
24 I'm grateful, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Nice.
1 Before the next witness is called, I'll give the Chamber's
2 decision in relation to Judge Markovic's exhibits -- Marinkovic's
3 evidence. These arose during cross-examination.
4 The Article B92, The Disturbing Truth of 8 March 2002 by Natasa
5 Kandic. This was a news article that was not accepted by the witness, is
6 not admitted.
7 Next, the article in Borba concerning the petition, that was
9 Next, the ten medical certificates describing injuries in the
10 police case. There is no dispute over authenticity. These are to be
11 admitted as one exhibit in ten tabs.
12 I am just waiting for the court deputy to give that a number.
13 That was ten medical certificates describing injuries in the police case.
14 Those are to be admitted as one exhibit in ten tabs.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be 864.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks. Next, a complaint by Fazli Bala [phoen],
17 the telegram from him to the minister of interior and his complaint to the
18 district court. There is no dispute over authenticity. These are all
19 admitted as one exhibit in three tabs.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. That will be 865.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next, the Spotlight Report number 16. Nothing
22 was established through the witness. This is not admitted.
23 Next, the statement and videos of three Kosovo Albanians
24 introduced to challenge prior statements that were members of the KLA.
25 This is not admitted.
1 The last item is the Official Note by the prosecutor concerning
2 Racak, which is admitted.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be 866.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic, the next witness.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We didn't hear that. Microphone for
7 Mr. Milosevic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next witness is Mr. Jasovic. I
9 see him walking in as we speak.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Let the witness make the declaration.
12 Make the declaration. Read what is on the paper.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. You may sit.
16 WITNESS: DRAGAN JASOVIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: And, Mr. Milosevic, you may commence.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
20 Examined by Mr. Milosevic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jasovic.
22 A. Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Mr. Jasovic, tell us, please, where were you born and when?
24 A. On the 20th of September, 1953, in Pec.
25 Q. What kind of education have you had? What schools have you
2 A. In Pec I completed secondary school and elementary school, and I
3 reached my final examinations at the faculty of security at the University
4 of Skopje.
5 Q. At the time when the events in Kosovo took place, those that are
6 being dealt with here, and you were at that time employed by the Ministry
7 of Interior, tell me, since when have you been employed in the Ministry of
8 Interior of Serbia or, rather, do you still work there?
9 A. I joined the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac on the 1st of
10 July, 1975. I still work there as a crime investigation policeman or,
11 rather, an inspector at the SUP of Urosevac which has been provisionally
12 relocated to Leskovac since 1999.
13 Q. Just tell us briefly what sectors you worked in in that period
14 from 1975 when you said that you were first employed by the Ministry of
15 the Interior.
16 A. From 1975 until May 1981, I worked as a policeman at the police
17 station in Stimlje. The Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac is in
18 charge of that police station. In May 1981, I was appointed assistant
19 commander of the police station in Urosevac, and I worked there until
20 1986. In 1986, I started working in the crime prevention department
21 within the general crime section in Urosevac. I worked there as a crime
22 investigation policeman or, rather, an inspector, and that is the job I --
23 I have until the present day.
24 Q. Apart from your work in Stimlje, for almost 20 years you've been
25 an inspector at the police station in Urosevac.
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Thank you. In view of your previous answers, can it be inferred
3 that you are quite familiar with the municipality of Stimlje both in terms
4 of the population, their mutual relations, geography, the configuration of
5 the terrain in Stimlje? I see that you worked there for many years, and
6 anyway, Stimlje is in the area of SUP Urosevac where you work until the
7 present day. So can it be inferred that you are well-versed in all
8 developments in the area?
9 A. I can say that quite freely, that I am very familiar with the
10 municipality of Stimlje and the municipality of Urosevac, because I worked
11 in these places. As for the configuration of the terrain, I am quite
12 familiar with it, as well as with inter-ethnic relations in Stimlje and
14 Q. Tell me, please, when you were transferred to work in Urosevac,
15 did all your professional contacts cease with the police station in
16 Stimlje and, generally speaking, with the area?
17 A. My relations did not cease because I continued to come and visit
18 the police station in Stimlje because it is within the local authority of
19 the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac.
20 Q. Tell us, Mr. Jasovic, during your professional career -- well, we
21 can see on the basis of everything you've said so far you've been a
22 professional policeman for 30 years now, since 1975 and it's 2005 now.
23 Were there any complaints from citizens, regardless of whether they were
24 Albanians, Serbs, or anybody else, in view of your professional work, in
25 carrying out your official duties? Were there any complaints? Please,
1 I'm not asking you whether they were justified or unjustified, I'm just
2 asking whether there were any complaints whatsoever.
3 A. There were no complaints against me, either by ethnic Albanians or
4 ethnic Serbs so far. That can be corroborated by the Ministry of the
5 Interior from Urosevac that is now in Leskovac.
6 Q. Tell us, please, Mr. Jasovic, what was the ethnic composition of
7 the employees in the -- in the municipality of Urosevac in the local
8 Secretariat of the Interior? And then could you please explain this to
9 the Court in terms of 1998, 1999, but first generally in terms of the
10 1990s throughout.
11 A. I could not give the exact percentages, but I know that until
12 1999, until 1999 in the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac, the
13 majority of the employees were Albanians, and they also held the top posts
14 within the secretariat. Also, in 1999 there were about ten employees who
15 were ethnic Albanians who kept their jobs in the secretariat.
16 In this case, I could mention Albanians -- the following
17 Albanians, Avdi Musa and Azem Haliti, who worked in the crime
18 investigation SUP in Urosevac with the department for general crime
19 prevention. Then Destan Sabane who worked on -- who worked in the
20 department for homicide. Then Hebib Koku, who worked as an inspector in
21 terms of felonies in Kacanik. That is also within the local authority of
22 the secretariat in Urosevac. Then Bedri Qerimi, a policeman who worked at
23 the police station in Stimlje.
24 Q. All right. That will do. Let's just clarify one point,
25 Mr. Jasovic. The few inspectors who are your colleagues, who are
1 inspectors like you are --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- these are Albanians who are inspectors and who worked there all
4 the way up to the end of the war in 1999?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. They had the same job as you did until the end of your activities
7 in Kosovo and Metohija; is that right?
8 A. Yes, the 12th of June, 1999. After that, we left the area of
9 Kosovo and Metohija.
10 Q. All right. All of these police inspectors that you mentioned who
11 were Albanians, they worked there until the very end. Now, tell me,
12 irrespective of those who worked until the end, there were probably others
13 who left the police force in the 1990s. Some Albanians did. This was a
14 widespread thing. And was this something that occurred in Urosevac as
16 A. Yes. I think that in the autumn of 1990, the majority of Albanian
17 employees in the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac left their jobs.
18 Q. Do you know why they left their jobs and left the service?
19 A. My colleagues and I, when we talked to them, heard from them that
20 if they stayed at their jobs they would be called traitors of the Albanian
21 people, they would be boycotted by ethnic Albanians throughout the
22 population, and they would jeopardise their own safety and the safety of
23 their families.
24 Q. Did you have occasion to talk to any of these persons yourself,
25 those who were leaving their jobs in the police force?
1 A. We talked to virtually all our colleagues from the crime
2 investigation service, and we pleaded with them to stay.
3 Q. You said that they left under duress, under pressure that came
4 from their Albanian leaders. Was there a single case in your area, in
5 Urosevac, that anybody was dismissed from the police force or that anybody
6 was treated differently due to the fact that this person was an ethnic
8 A. Not a single employee of our secretariat was not -- not a single
9 one was dismissed or was treated differently because he was an ethnic
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, you said earlier that up until 1999
12 the majority of the employees in the office of the ministry were
13 Albanians, and now you've indicated that others or a large number left in
14 1990. You say in the autumn of -- the majority of Albanian employees left
15 their jobs. Are these two answers consistent?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say here that most Albanians
17 who were employed by our secretariat, in the autumn of 19 -- in the autumn
18 of 1990 left their jobs. Before that, most of the employees at the
19 secretariat had been Albanians, ethnic Albanians. I may have misspoke. I
20 may have referred to the year wrongly.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: So what was the position in 1999?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1999, as I mentioned, in the
23 Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac there were about ten policemen and
24 other staff members in the SUP of Urosevac.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Out of a total of how many?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say. I cannot really answer
2 this question, what the total number of employees was -- or, rather, the
3 exact number of ethnic Albanians in our secretariat.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. Thank you.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. All right. Since Mr. Bonomy put this question, perhaps it would
7 be a good thing, perhaps it would be useful, if we would deal with it in
8 greater detail. You indicated a few concrete specific names of your
9 colleagues - inspectors, policemen - who worked in the Urosevac SUP until
10 June 1999.
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. You mentioned that, yes. Now, I noted this down. You mentioned
13 an inspector for felonies, Avdi Musa. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Then also you mentioned Azem Haliti, also an inspector?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. They were your colleagues?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did they work in the same building where you worked?
20 A. We worked in the same building, on the third floor of the
21 Secretariat of the Interior.
22 Q. All right. The two persons that you mentioned, they worked in the
23 same building where you worked. I'm going to put a question to you later
24 concerning some of the allegations that were made here, that you were
25 involved in extortion, et cetera. So these Albanian inspectors were in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the same building that you were in until you left Kosovo and Metohija in
2 June 1999.
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. And what happened?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll have to stop now. It's time for the break.
6 Twenty minutes. We are adjourned.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Continue, Mr. Milosevic.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Jasovic, you said that inspector Avdi Musa was a criminal
12 investigation inspector until you withdrew from Kosovo in June of 1999.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know what happened to him after you left Kosovo?
15 A. My colleague Avdi Musa, after our departure from Kosovo and
16 Metohija, from the autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija, on that
17 same day in front of his house in Urosevac was wounded from a firearm by
18 KLA, and several days later he died in the clinical and hospital centre in
19 Pristina as a result of these serious injuries.
20 Q. So what happened? He was practically killed. First he was
21 gravely wounded and then died several days later.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What about the other inspector, Haliti, the one that you've
25 A. Azem Haliti, sometime in the second half of July 1999, was
1 abducted by the Albanian terrorists belonging to the KLA from his family
3 Q. Is he still alive?
4 A. After one month he was freed. And according to what we know, he
5 is in his house in Urosevac nowadays.
6 Q. How come they killed one of them and then freed the other one? Do
7 you have an explanation?
8 A. I do have an explanation. Azem Haliti had friends and relatives
9 in the Petrovo village, Racak, Dramljak, Malopoljce, where was the base of
10 the KLA and their headquarters. According to what I learned, he was not
11 killed because that would produce clashes between his relatives and the
13 Q. All right. So he was freed as a result of interventions by his
15 A. Most likely as a result of those interventions.
16 Q. All right. Let me put a follow-up question. Do you occasionally
17 meet any of the Albanians from Urosevac or from that area since you
18 continued to work in the relocated premises of the SUP Urosevac?
19 A. I continue to be an employee of the SUP Urosevac to this day. As
20 I've told you, this SUP was relocated to Leskovac. As I've already told
21 you, various Albanians come to see us for various administrative issues
22 such as issuance of IDs, passports, and so on. A large number of these
23 Albanians express a wish to see me and to talk to me, and I always
24 accommodate them. When I talked to these Albanians, upon talking to them
25 I learned that terror continues in Kosovo and Metohija carried out by the
1 former KLA members which are now members of ANA, and also the Kosovo
2 Corps, which is the basic force in Kosovo and the secret police.
3 Members of these organisations carry out terror against Albanians,
4 Albanians who used to know and were friendly with the Serbs and wanted to
5 co-exist with them in peace. The Albanians who knew any police officers
6 are also being terrorised.
7 Q. All right, Mr. Jasovic. You mentioned several cases here of
8 policemen who were your colleagues and stayed in their jobs until the end.
9 Do you know whether there were any Albanians employed by the state
10 security service in your municipality? When putting this question, I'm
11 referring to 1999.
12 A. Yes, that's clear to me. Until the day we departed, which was the
13 12th of June, 1999, in the sector of the state security in Urosevac there
14 were inspectors Hisni Topali and Bajram Luri who remained living in
16 Q. Is the same Qerimi Bedri familiar to you?
17 A. Yes, Qerimi Bedri is a familiar name. This is a policeman
18 employed by the Stimlje police station, employed there, who was sent to
19 work there until we departed Kosovo and Metohija, which was on the 12th of
20 June, 1999.
21 Q. Very well. I will not put any further questions to you in
22 relation to the Albanians employed in police force.
23 Do you know names of any Albanians who perished because they
24 refused to join the KLA in your territory?
25 A. Yes. I know the names of such Albanians. I can tell you here and
1 now that Albanian terrorists, members of the KLA, used terror against
2 Albanians who refused to join the KLA. They also terrorised Albanians who
3 socialised with the Serbs, who had friends among police members, and they
4 also targeted Albanians who worked in state-owned companies and state
5 institutions, as well as Albanians who in any way protested against the
6 violence and terror.
7 Q. All right, Mr. Jasovic. Based on the testimony of the
8 investigating judge Danica Marinkovic as related to the events in Racak,
9 we saw a number of exhibits here of different content.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic. All right. You're moving on then
11 to the essential purpose of this witness's testimony, I hope.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly. But I hope that
13 this is the essential purpose as well, because it is very important to
14 show that the witness had Albanian colleagues working with him at the time
15 of the relevant events, that some of them perished after our forces
16 withdrew from Kosovo and Metohija, and as you can see, the witness knows
17 about the treatment that the Albanians who continued working for state
18 organs received or were subjected to at the hands of the KLA.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Now, in relation to the Racak events, when Judge Danica Marinkovic
21 testified we saw a number of exhibits displaying your signature and that
22 of your colleague Momcilo Sparavalo. And would you please tell me, in
23 what capacity did you participate in investigations relating to the Racak
25 A. Immediately after the events in the village of Racak, Stimlje
1 municipality, or to put it better, after the conflict between the KLA
2 members and members of the SUP Urosevac, at the request of the public
3 prosecutor, in the course of investigation a number of interviews was --
4 were conducted with ethnic Albanians pertaining to events in Racak and
5 such facts as numbers of the KLA members, their weaponry, their movements,
6 and their activities.
7 Q. Please tell us this: Based on your information, before the events
8 in Racak in the territory covered by your Secretariat of the Interior, how
9 many members of the KLA were in that area, in Racak area?
10 A. The territory of Stimlje, including not only the village of Racak
11 but also surrounding villages, were the villages that we covered, because
12 in -- starting in July 1998, until the 15th of January, 1999, when the
13 incident in Racak took place, the members, Albanian members of the KLA,
14 conducted a large number of terrorist acts aimed against Serb civilians
15 and Albanian civilians. Based on the interviews conducted, official notes
16 compiled, and based on the official information, we learned that the KLA
17 staff in the village of Racak was between 80 and 120 members strong.
18 Q. All right, Mr. Jasovic. As inspector of the Urosevac SUP, before
19 the incident on the 15th of January, did you have any intelligence
20 information concerning the KLA, the situation as it existed in Racak and
21 the surrounding area, and about their activities?
22 A. Even before the Racak events, as I have said, based on interviews
23 conducted with ethnic Albanians, we learned that in the Racak village and
24 surrounding -- surrounding villages in our municipality there had been KLA
25 staffs established.
1 Q. Very well, Mr. Jasovic. How did you acquire information about the
2 members of the KLA in that area?
3 A. Upon learning about terrorist attacks of the KLA, we as a service
4 intensified our work in uncovering the facts and locating the perpetrators
5 of these acts, as a result of which we conducted a large number of
6 interviews with ethnic Albanians who were able to provide pertinent
7 information to us. I can tell you now that I and my colleagues had
8 informants, registered informants, and also friendly contacts who provided
9 information to us about terrorist attacks, about the strength of the KLA,
10 movement of its members and their activities.
11 Q. Very well, Mr. Jasovic. You just mentioned informants and
12 contacts you had. When referring to informants, do you actually -- does
13 that imply the contacts that you had among ethnic Albanians?
14 A. Yes. Among ethnic Albanians exclusively, those who wished on
15 their own to cooperate with the authorities of the Republic of Serbia.
16 And they were the source of this information about the members of the KLA.
17 Q. Very well. Now, what kind of terrorist attacks took place before
18 the incident in Racak? Do you remember what actually took place and what
19 were the consequences?
20 MR. NICE: There's an issue that may be arising, and that is is
21 the witness going to be speaking from intelligence material that he relies
22 on but is not going to be available to the Chamber or to us? We've had
23 this problem before with one of the Russian witnesses, and I recall what
24 the Chamber's general approach was then, but it may be helpful if the
25 accused sets the scene a little more fully before we go on to hear
1 conclusions that the witness draws from intelligence material, if for
2 example, it's going to be claimed that he can speak from such material
3 without it being made available to me.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, find out from the witness if he's
5 going to speak from firsthand experience, if he's going to speak on the
6 basis of information that he received, then find out where that
7 information is from and whether he's able to disclose it.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Fine, Mr. Robinson.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Please, Mr. Jasovic, would you answer the question that was
11 formulated a moment ago by Mr. Robinson; namely, are you speaking
12 firsthand about this knowledge, that the information you got from the
13 people who conveyed this to you, or did you get the information a
14 roundabout way?
15 A. I'm speaking firsthand here, based on statements made and given to
16 me by Albanians who came to us on their own initiative to tell us of
17 terrorist attacks, on the basis of statements by individuals who had been
18 taken into custody as well by the police, by the Secretariat of the
19 Interior, and who found themselves to be on the territory of the war or in
20 a suspect place, as well as on the basis of the interviews I had with
21 registered informants and my friendly connections as well.
22 Q. Right. So on the basis of all that, all the information you've
23 just presented us with; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, tell us briefly, what terrorist attacks were there before the
1 Racak incident in the area itself?
2 MR. NICE: Sorry to interrupt again, but I'm not sure we've yet
3 got an answer to the question whether all this material is going to be
4 available to us to consider or if any part of it's going to be subject to
5 an application to say that it can be withheld because it's confidential
6 or --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me ask him. Mr. Jasovic, you indicated you
8 got information from Albanians and Serbs. You had statements --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of the Albanians?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: From Albanians, yes, Albanians. Are you in a
11 position to disclose this information?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are official reports and
13 information that way contained in the tab.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You mean that information is in the bundle of
15 documents about which you'll be testifying?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let's proceed.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. I hope you'll be able to answer my question. What terrorist
20 attacks were there before the incident in Racak itself?
21 A. After the formation of the KLA staffs and headquarters in the
22 Stimlje area, in the village of Racak and the surrounding villages, in
23 actual fact, the external KLA terrorists went about setting up
24 fortification. They dug trenches, bunkers and communicating trenches from
25 which fortifications they launched a large number of terrorist attacks on
1 civilians, both Albanians and Serbs, and members of the republican SUP.
2 In June 1999 or, rather, 1998, the Albanian terrorists cut off the
3 main road running from Stimlje to Prizren, and having set up their
4 checkpoints, they began their abductions of civilians and -- of Albanian
5 civilians and Serb civilians. And during that period of time there were
6 many terrorist attacks that were launched against the police, and both
7 Albanians and Serbs, mostly against those people who were running along
8 the roads, and a number of policemen were killed as well as Serbs and
10 Q. Mr. Jasovic -- yes. Go ahead. I thought you were finished.
11 A. I can't remember all their names now, but what I can say is this:
12 On the 25th of July, 1998, a policeman by the name of Sladjan Miric was
13 killed. Then on the 31st of July, 1998 again, in that same area a SUP
14 worker in Urosevac, Miroslav Peric, was killed. And two other Urosevac
15 SUP members were wounded on the occasion.
16 Then on the 2nd of August, 1998, a policeman by the name of Boro
17 Stevanovic was killed. In October 1998, another policeman was killed.
18 His name was Ranko Djordjevic. And during that period of time also killed
19 were Albanian civilians Alurin Nazmi, Miftar or, rather, Resani Miftar,
20 Enver Gashi, and I can't give you the other names now, I don't remember
22 During that same period of time, on the 27th of June, 1998 in the
23 village of Gornje Godance, the following were kidnapped: Albanian
24 civilians kidnapped from their house. Their name was Suceri Zumberi, and
25 Vesel Ahmeti, as well as Agim Ademi. Then on the 29th of June, 1998, in
1 the centre of the village of Crni Vrh, Stimlje municipality, the Albanian
2 KLA terrorists stopped a bus with Djakovica number plates. They entered
3 the bus, KLA members entered the bus. They were armed with automatic
4 weapons, and they had been trained and wearing camouflage uniforms with
5 KLA insignia, or UCK insignia. And when they entered the bus, they asked
6 whether there were any Serbs in the bus. At that point, they forcibly
7 took off Vojko Bakrac and his son Ivan Bakrac, Genov Stamen, he was an
8 active-duty soldier, and Cuk Djordje was the other man.
9 Q. And what happened to those people?
10 A. According to our information, they were taken off to the Lapusnik
11 prison, the infamous Lapusnik prison. Vojko Bakrac and Ivan Bakrac
12 through the International Red Cross were freed on the 6th of July, 1998,
13 while the destiny of Stamen Genov and Cuk Djordje is unknown. We don't
14 know what happened to them. However, according to some information, they
15 were liquidated, that is to say deprived of their lives at a place called
16 Velika Stena above Gornji Lapusnik in the municipality of Glogovac.
17 Q. Very well. You have enumerated sufficient examples. Tell me this
18 now, please, in view the fact that you were an inspector in the area and
19 the frequency of the attacks, because you've given us various dates dating
20 to the middle of 1998, as far back as 1998, so in view of the frequency of
21 the attacks and the seriousness of the consequences they had, how can you
22 explain why it wasn't earlier attempted to apprehend the terrorists in the
23 Racak area and the surrounding parts?
24 A. Could you ask the question again, please.
25 Q. Yes. I was asking you, in view of the frequency of these
1 incidents, because you quoted a number of terrorist attacks that had taken
2 place since mid-1998, so in few of their frequency, the frequency of the
3 attacks and the seriousness of the attacks, because a number of people
4 were killed as you yourself have just told us, can you give me an
5 explanation as to why nobody intervened to apprehend the group in Racak
6 before the date of the 15th of January? Why was nothing done about it?
7 A. Well, most probably they assessed that -- the assessment was that
8 a drive should be launched to apprehend the perpetrators of the crimes of
9 terrorism. However, specifically I can't tell you why. I assume that my
10 superiors would be able to give you a better answer as to why that didn't
12 Q. Very well. Now, Mr. Jasovic, in the binder here we have a
13 document or, rather, a number of statements which you and your colleagues
14 collected during your work, your professional work in collecting data and
15 information about the members of the KLA, and before I go on to discuss
16 the individual statements taken by you and others, can we say and can we
17 see that they are very similar in the layout, the form in which they're
18 presented, because the date is always mentioned first, the time, and the
19 name of the person providing the statement. And at the end we can see
20 your signature and the signature of your colleague, Momcilo Sparavalo.
21 Sometimes there is an additional signature, sometimes not. So was this a
22 general formula for taking statements? Was this the standard type of
23 layout and the standard type of statement that you would take as an
24 authorised individual?
25 A. Yes, that's right. My colleague and I, my colleague Mr. Momcilo
1 Sparavalo, would take all the statements and they were based on the Law on
2 Criminal Procedure for written statements, and every document -- I can
3 certify every document if the same people took the statement.
4 Q. Very well. Thank you. That's what I wanted to ask you with the
5 similar appearance of the statements, the layout. Now, let's take a look
6 at the first statement, and the date there is the 22nd of August, 1998.
7 A. What tab is that?
8 Q. The tab is 1.1, 1.1. You've found it?
9 A. Yes, I've found it. Thank you.
10 Q. Very well. Now, is that the statement that you took on the 22nd
11 of August, 1998?
12 A. Yes. I and my colleague Momcilo Sparavalo took the statement on
13 the 22nd of August, 1998.
14 Q. Very well. Now, does that statement refer to some information
15 which has to do about the activities of the KLA in the area of Racak and
16 the surrounding parts?
17 A. Yes, that's right. It was an individual who at his own initiative
18 came to the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac and gave us the names
19 of KLA members, probably from the village of Racak, Petrovo, and the
20 surrounding villages.
21 Q. [No interpretation]
22 A. [No interpretation]
23 Q. The sentence -- thank you.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English?
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. "I hereby state that I own the Petrovo flour mill in Stimlje,
3 where over the past months buyers have been afraid of buying larger
4 quantities of flour from me lest it should be seized by the police.
5 Approximately a month ago, Rama Isuf, son of Hamdija from Racak village
6 came to my mill in Stimlje and said that he could transport flour for me
7 up to Petrovo village with a tractor without any problems. I accepted his
8 proposal and we agreed that for his services I should pay him 100 German
9 marks for every 1.000 kilos of flour transported. I do not know exactly,
10 but I think that Isuf Rama transported 12 tonnes of flour for me with his
11 tractor without any problems in ten trips from Stimlje to Petrovo village.
12 "As I work for money, I sold the flour to decent people as well
13 as to members of the so-called KLA."
14 Now, why did he come to see you, to complain about the police or
15 to make a statement about the KLA activities?
16 A. This individual came not to complain about members of the police
17 force but to make a statement about members of the KLA.
18 Q. Now, in this statement did he provide you with information as he
19 saw fit, as he wanted to, or did you ask him any questions with respect to
20 any of these individuals? Did you ask him whether he knew these
21 individuals; and if so, did he see them, and so on and so on -- so forth?
22 How did you take this statement? Can you remember?
23 A. He voluntarily gave his statement at his own initiative, as he was
24 born in the village of Petrovo in the Stimlje municipality.
25 Q. How far is Petrovo from Racak?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. About two kilometres.
2 Q. You're saying the village of Petrovo is two kilometres away from
3 the village of Racak; right?
4 A. Yes, it's practically linked to Racak.
5 Q. All right. Now, in his statement he mentioned the names of the
6 KLA members from the village of Petrovo who were in the KLA in the village
7 of Rance.
8 A. If you want me to read out the names, then may we go into closed
9 session for security reasons?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, may we comply with the
11 witness's request for a closed or private session?
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. NICE: May I be heard on this? The suggestion as I understand
14 it is that the identification of KLA members at the time is to be taken in
15 private session for security reasons. I'm not sure at the moment whose
16 security interests it is, whether it's the maker of the statement whose
17 security concerns are involved or whether it's somebody else's.
18 The Chamber will recall the experience we have had so far with
19 researching statements of this kind and with our finding contrary
20 material. Now, we've been able to do that thus far because we've been
21 able to deal with the comparatively limited number of specific statements
22 that have come our way through other witnesses and have been relied on by
23 the accused.
24 With 90 witness statements, that may well simply not be possible,
25 and therefore there is from our point of view considerable advantage in
1 this material being given publicly because this provides an additional
2 opportunity for errors to be corrected by those who may see public
3 broadcasts or read public reports of this material. So that although of
4 course we're always respectful of legitimate security or other interests
5 of individuals, I would invite the Chamber to be cautious before granting
6 protective measures of the kind sought and to discover first the precise
7 basis upon which they are being sought.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, let me first ask the witness: Whose
9 security is endangered?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here specifically I mean the
11 security of the individual who gave the statement as well as the security
12 of his -- and safety of his family, because to the present day in Kosovo
13 and Metohija, as I've already said, there are former KLA members, (redacted)
15 (redacted) and terror is being exerted towards Albanians
16 themselves, that is to say those Albanians who associated with ethnic
17 Serbs and members of the police force, and so on and so forth.
18 And I should also like to mention this: In the period -- or,
19 rather, the Albanians told us that in the period from the 12th of June
20 1999, to the present day, a number of Albanians have been killed, and all
21 knowledge about this indicates that they were killed by former KLA
22 members. If need be, I can give you the names of the individuals who were
23 killed, those that I can remember now.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Kay, on this point.
25 MR. KAY: It occurs to me that we should have a redaction from the
1 transcript because the particular individual in tab 1.1 was mentioned as
2 to his place and occupation, and if that could be attended to straight
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That will be redacted. The court deputy
5 will bring me the relevant page.
6 MR. KAY: Yes. It seems to me that it's the author of the
7 statement who is really the person at risk here rather than the people
8 whose names are disclosed within the documents, but that in dealing with
9 this material one should be concerned to protect and make sure that no
10 pointers are given as to name or identity of the maker of the statement
11 and that that should be dealt with in an oblique way. We have the written
12 materials before us, so it's very easily done. It can be referred to as
13 the individual in tab 1 of the exhibit who made the statement. Any
14 identifying factors can be dealt with obliquely and avoided, and the
15 particular names can be just looked at in the document because we can see
16 them there.
17 MR. NICE: Your Honours, may I just -- sorry, to add a sentence.
18 This, of course, is exactly the problem that's concerning us. Just to
19 assist the Trial Chamber in seeing it from our point of view, if you go,
20 for example, to page -- to enclosure 1.51 -- sorry, 151, yes, you'll see
21 its numbered at the top right-hand corner 03032848, you will see a
22 statement with which you will be, I think, familiar because this is one of
23 the statements -- it's about halfway through the file. 1.51. I'm waiting
24 for His Honour.
25 JUDGE KWON: Tab 47.
1 MR. NICE: Yes. You will see a statement with which you'll
2 probably be familiar, because this is one of those that was referred to
3 with an earlier witness. On that occasion, the witness was referred to --
4 not the witness, the maker of the statement was referred to without, I
5 think, any protective measures at all, and on that occasion it was
6 possible to approach the maker of the statement, and on that occasion the
7 maker of the statement made a contrary statement. I know it hasn't been
8 admitted as an exhibit. That is another issue. In those circumstances,
9 the material, it was possible for us to lay material about that statement
10 before the Court, and indeed this statement was the subject of
11 cross-examination in the other case, the Limaj case, although I haven't
12 immediately got my fingers on whether the name of the maker of the
13 statement was given publicly in that case. It doesn't matter.
14 Our concerns, as I explained before, but perhaps it's helpful to
15 see it again with this statement before you, our concerns are that if --
16 yes. Our concerns are that if statement makers such as the statement
17 maker here have accounts of the making of the statement that they would
18 want to give, if the material is only given in closed session or in any
19 other way where they cannot know what is attributed to them, and if we
20 aren't able to or may decide not to investigate these matters by
21 approaching 91 witness or 90-odd witness statement makers, then the
22 possibility of correction is reduced by the closed session technique.
23 That's my concern.
24 Thank you for allowing me to make that point.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, anything on this point?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, first of all I wish
2 like to apologise to the witness for not having asked at the very outset
3 whether this name can be used. It was my understanding that it could be
4 used. Later on, the witness said, and I assume that it was only his
5 professional conscience that dictated him to do so, and knowing that in
6 Kosovo it's not a good thing to mention the names of persons who gave
7 statements because they may suffer consequences because terror reigns
8 there, and he explained why. He's not in contact with these people, so he
9 cannot say whether they are threatened now and to what extent. He only
10 believes that, generally speaking, in relation to the situation in Kosovo
11 it would not be desirable as far as the safety and security of these
12 persons is concerned to have their names read out.
13 So you can assess yourselves whether his request is justified or
14 not. While preparing this witness, I did not have occasion to go into
15 these matters. As soon as the witness mentioned this, I suggested to you
16 to comply with what he requested. It seems so logical to me that if
17 somebody can be endangered, that that should be prevented. And you know
18 what the situation is like there: Anybody who ever gave a statement of
19 this kind, is under threat. We can use all these documents without
20 referring to the actual names of the persons who gave the statements when
21 the witness says that we should not mention the names.
22 I presume that this would not pertain to all of these documents.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: A part of the difficulty, Mr. Milosevic, is
24 something that you just said; the witness is not able to identify any
25 particular security concern in relation to the witness, this particular
1 witness, it's that he belongs to a group and anybody in that group, in
2 that category, might be endangered. So there's nothing that specifically
3 relates to the witness personally. It's the group to which he belongs.
4 But I'll consider it.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice or Mr. Kay or Mr. Milosevic, do you know
7 how this matter was dealt with in the other case in which this witness
8 testified, Limaj?
9 MR. NICE: My recollection is that there were some parts of the
10 testimony that didn't immediately match the testimony that's going to be
11 given here, I think, to do with informers, that were given in closed
12 session. I believe that these particular statements, which weren't
13 informer based statements, were dealt with in open session. I'll just
14 confirm that.
15 MR. KAY: Because of the volume of names, we're unable to identify
16 that. It would take a bit of time to try and work that out from those
17 transcripts. We looked at them under an entirely different way when we
18 were researching them.
19 Yes. Those names, those three names, were given in open session,
20 of the witnesses whose transcripts were produced in the earlier
21 cross-examination. The other names, of course, from the file that we
22 have, that was not evidential material in that case. This file here
23 arrives with the witness for the Defence in this trial. It was being used
24 in a different way in the Limaj case, as a Prosecution witness with
25 different materials.
1 These documents essentially in this binder come through him. He
2 brought them here in the same way that the witness Marinkovic brought her
3 file including the statements as examples of investigations she had been
4 concerned with at the time.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm slightly surprised at that because he didn't
6 come here expecting to give evidence in this case. He presumably brought
7 documents because he was coming to give evidence in the Limaj case, and
8 surely more of these -- some of these, at least, were used in that case.
9 MR. KAY: I might be wrong about that, but that was my assumption
10 working on it. It may require some investigation or explanation.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: If we were to have the evidence given in public
12 session without any reference to the name of the author of the statement,
13 that might be sufficient protection.
14 MR. KAY: That would be very prudent and sufficient. This witness
15 has got no interest, so to speak, with the Albanian community, as the
16 Court would have seen. He's been responsible, in our submission, in
17 relation to the information that he has gathered during his duties as a
18 police officer. He's plainly working in a different area now.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I took this statement, I had
21 the same kind of job. This was on the 22nd of August, 1998.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that there is a bit of a
24 misunderstanding in terms of what Mr. Kay said a few moments ago, that he
25 took statements when he worked as a policeman and that he now has a
1 different job. Broadly speaking, he is certainly a policeman, and he
2 certainly does the same kind of work as he did then. That's the kind of
3 work he does now. He is a police inspector involved in crime
4 investigation. He was a police inspector at that time in the crime
5 investigation department, as he is now. So he has exactly the same job
6 now as he had then when he took the statements.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll continue with the evidence in public
8 session, but there should be no reference to the name of the author. Do
9 you understand that?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand that. Yes. I
11 will call the person, say, Person A.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. The person from tab 1.1, deal with it that way. Mr. Jasovic, did
14 you have in mind the danger that the person who gave the statement to you
15 may be subjected to?
16 A. Yes, because this kind of thing happens in Kosovo until the
17 present day. As I said earlier on, many Albanians were killed from 1999
19 Q. All right. In this statement that you got, on the bottom of the
20 original page of your note or, rather, the statement that you and your
21 colleague Sparavalo took, it says that "The following persons are within
22 the ranks of the KLA," and then there is a long list of names. Are all of
23 these persons from Racak and the surrounding area, Rance, Racak, Petrovo?
24 Tell us, please, Racak, Rance, Petrovo, is all of that a relatively small
25 area with about one or two or three kilometres in diameter?
1 A. Yes. I've already said two kilometres between Racak and Rance,
2 three kilometres, and that's the same distance as between Rance and
3 Petrovo. Person A gave the names of the members of the KLA from Petrovo
4 because that is the place of residence of the said persons as well as the
5 names of the KLA members from Racak who were in the village of Rance and
6 the KLA there, where KLA headquarters were established in the beginning of
7 June 1998.
8 Q. All right. When you turn the page, the list continues, doesn't
9 it? And you have ten or 15 members of the KLA here who are described in
10 this statement.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. At the outset it says that it is the 22nd of August, 1998, that
13 the interview was conducted with this person, and then his details are set
14 out. And here at the very end there is something else that was written,
15 and there's a signature, and there's a handwritten date, the 26th of
16 August, 1998. Can you see that?
17 A. Yes, Mr. President. The date and the signature concerned are the
18 date when the statement was sent on further to the relevant department in
20 Q. Yes. We want you to explain that.
21 A. Yes. That was the regular way it was done, with a signature and
22 the relevant date.
23 Q. Tell us, Mr. Jasovic, to the best of your knowledge that you had
24 at the time, what was the immediate reason for taking this action in
1 A. As far as I know, the immediate reason was the terrorist attack
2 and killing of policeman Svetislav Przic, who was killed from one of the
3 numerous ambushes that were there. I can say that the action was preceded
4 by the following: Before Svetislav Przic's killing, from the month of
5 June until January when the said person was killed, a great many terrorist
6 acts had been carried out against civilians of both Serb and Albanian
8 Q. All right. Let's just look at a very specific piece of
9 information. Please look at tab 1.49.
10 Have you found it?
11 A. Yes, I have.
12 Q. Should the name of the person who gave the statement be mentioned
13 or not?
14 A. I'd rather not.
15 Q. All right. This person mentioned here gave a statement to you.
16 Could you please comment upon this statement. Is there any information
17 here that relates to the killing of the policeman?
18 A. I can confirm the authenticity of this statement. The statement
19 was signed by the interviewed person as well as by myself and by my
20 colleague Momcilo Sparavalo. This is also a person who came of his own
21 free will to the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac. As far as I can
22 see from the statement, he gave the names of the members of the KLA from
23 the village of Malopoljce, municipality of Stimlje, and the potential
24 perpetrators of the terrorist attack against the policeman Svetislav
25 Przic. In the statement he mentioned that the following persons, who were
1 members of the KLA came from the village of Malopoljce, municipality of
2 Stimlje, and they are the ones who killed Svetislav Przic.
3 Q. All right. At the end of the first paragraph of this statement of
4 yours, he says how they were dressed and armed, and towards the end, in
5 the last third of this big paragraph, it says that there was an armed
6 attack at the patrol of the MUP of Serbia, and then at the very end he
7 says: "He also told us that after the armed attack and killing, the three
8 of them walked back to the village of Jezerce while he," the person in
9 question, "went to the village of Malopoljce." So there is a description
10 there as to what happened as far as the killing of the policeman was
11 concerned. Is that what this statement contains?
12 A. Yes. It contains the first and last names of the persons
13 concerned and also what his relative told him, that from an ambush near
14 the Urosevac-Stimlje road in the village of Slivovo they opened fire from
15 firearms at the police patrol that was moving from Stimlje towards
16 Urosevac, and he mentions that an automatic weapon was fired.
17 Q. All right. How was this statement taken? Everybody can read this
18 statement, but how was it taken?
19 A. The statement was taken on the basis of the Law on Criminal
20 Procedure and its provisions in the prescribed manner, and as I have said,
21 I confirm the authenticity of this statement because the person signed it,
22 the interviewee signed it, and the interviewer, that is myself and my
23 colleague Mr. Sparavalo, signed it.
24 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did this person come in of their own accord to make
25 the statement or were they apprehended?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. No. The person came of his own accord. I knew the person from
2 before, so that's why they came and volunteered.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, would you look at tab 1.54, please,
4 and the statement given to you by another person, and there are some
5 things here that are linked to the event in Racak. And just a few tabs on
6 you'll find tab 1.54. I hope you've found the document.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm sorry that I have to stop, but
8 at first I thought there was no hearing, but I've been informed that there
9 will be a hearing this afternoon, which means that we have to stop
10 immediately. So just bear in mind the question you asked, and we'll come
11 back to that tomorrow morning.
12 We're adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00 a.m.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of
15 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.