1 Tuesday, 26 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic -- There is a technical problem.
7 Let's try again. Yes.
8 Mr. Milosevic, to continue with your examination-in-chief.
9 WITNESS: DRAGAN JASOVIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
12 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jasovic.
14 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
15 Q. Yesterday, just before we adjourned, I asked you to take a look at
16 tab 1.54. I hope you can find it now. Have you found it?
17 A. Yes, I have.
18 Q. Could you please take a look and tell us, what did this person
19 giving a statement say regarding the events in Racak? I'd just like to
20 quote a portion to you, a portion from this document.
21 First of all, please tell us, is this a statement that you
22 yourself took, you and your colleague Darko Amanovic?
23 A. Yes, that's correct. I can confirm the authenticity of this
24 document because the document was signed by the person interviewed as well
25 as by myself and colleague Darko Amanovic from the state security service.
1 Q. Very well. Please take a look at the beginning of the statement
2 where it says: "I can state that I live in Racak village, Stimlje
3 municipality, and that when the fighting broke out between members of the
4 MUP of the Republic of Serbia and members of the KLA in mid-January 1999,
5 I was in my house in the village of Racak. At the time, the staff of the
6 KLA was located in the house of Shyqeri Mustafa, son of Idriz, and the
7 commander of the staff was Afet Bilalli, who was wounded during the fight
8 and is being medically treated in the KLA staff in Laniste village,
9 Stimlje municipality. A number of the members of the KLA staff in Racak
10 village were located in the house of Mehmet Mustafa, son of Zenun, who was
11 also in the KLA and was killed on the 15th of January, 1999."
12 At the bottom of the page, he says that he saw Shukri Buja from
13 the village of Bujance, commander of the operative area of Nerodimlje,
14 attending the funeral. You know that this person testified here, Shukri
16 A. Yes, I heard that. I didn't follow it myself, but I heard it.
17 Q. On the second page, towards the middle of the page, he says:
18 "Members of the KLA who were in Racak after the combat retreated towards
19 staffs -- KLA staffs in the village of Mahala and Rance." And then he
20 goes on to say, "On the 15th of January, during the armed action, when I
21 went into the street I saw Mujota Sadik with a sniper rifle, and his son
22 Nijazi with an automatic rifle."
23 And then he goes on to list the persons who are members of the
25 Would you please give us a brief comment.
1 A. The person interviewed gave accurate information, and I can say
2 this because previously we had received information that there was the KLA
3 staff in the village of Racak and that it was housed in the premises of
4 Zenun and Mehmet Mustafa. Also, prior to interviewing this person and
5 after that, we knew the names and last names of the KLA members in the
6 village of Racak.
7 I can say that the commander of the substaff in Racak was Ajet
8 Bugali [phoen], nicknamed Qopa.
9 Q. Mr. Jasovic, please tell us, after the Racak event, did you
10 undertake intensive investigation about what had happened in Racak?
11 A. Yes. Immediately, on the following day, which is quite normal, we
12 interviewed a large number of ethnic Albanians in order to shed light on
13 the events in Racak, Stimlje municipality.
14 Q. Do you remember the names of the persons that you interviewed in
15 relation to this?
16 A. I could not recall that because it's been more than six years.
17 However, if I were to look at these documents again, then, yes, I would
18 remember the names of the persons I interviewed. These were mostly
19 informants and friendly contacts.
20 Q. All right. Would the name of Afrim Mustafa mean anything to you?
21 A. Afrim Mustafa does not mean anything to me as the name; however,
22 three weeks ago when I testified in the case against the accused Musliu
23 and Limaj, one of the Defence counsel told me that the person named, Afrim
24 Mustafa, had complaints regarding my work.
25 Q. During the testimony of Judge Danica Marinkovic, we exhibited your
1 document, the statement you took together with your colleague Sparavalo.
2 The statement was signed by Afrim Mustafa. And we had an objection here
3 to the effect that he had not signed that document or, rather, that you
4 forced him to sign the document. This was claimed based on a statement he
5 gave just recently, several days before you came to testify. Are you
6 aware of that?
7 A. I saw that document, as I have stated, in the case against the
8 accused Fatmir Limaj and Isak Musliu. What I can tell you is as follows:
9 I can understand that man. I can understand why he cannot confirm the
10 authenticity of his statement, for if he did that, he would put at risk
11 the life of his family members and himself.
12 After we left Kosovo, a terror against Albanians started. I know
13 that after we left, Zenit Sudi [phoen] was killed, two members of the
14 Benjani [phoen] family, Cimil Ismail [phoen], Semyl [phoen], all of these
15 people were killed. Mahmud Ismaj [phoen] was abducted and shot. I
16 received this information from Albanians. And this was done near the
17 stable in Kacanik. Therefore, I completely understand this person
18 because, I'm repeating, if he were to confirm the authenticity, he would
19 endanger the lives of his family and his own life.
20 All of these cases of murder took place after we left Kosovo on
21 the 12th of June, 1999, up until the 31st of December, 2004.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jasovic, may I ask you whether any of the
23 persons whom you just named as having been killed gave statements to you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. And if needed,
25 I can state this in closed session, the name of the person from whom I
1 took a statement.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Just a second, Mr. Jasovic.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You just said and named a number of persons who
5 were killed, and I wanted to find out whether any of those persons had
6 given statements to you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the killings which occurred
8 between 1999 and 2004.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You said -- let's go back to the transcript. You
10 said two members of the family Cimil, et cetera, all these people were
11 killed. Mahmud was abducted and shot, and therefore you understand why
12 this particular person would not confirm the authenticity of his
13 statement. So I wanted to find out whether any of those persons killed
14 had given statements to you. Did you collect statements from them, or
15 were they family members of persons who had made statements to you?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the person who was killed,
17 Mahmud Arishta, I had taken a statement from him and a criminal complaint
18 from his brother. I don't remember the year. I think that it was in 2001
19 or 2002 that he was killed.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Let's be brief. I want to ask you something in relation to that.
23 Since Afrim Mustafa, in his statement given to Mr. Saxon -- or, rather, in
24 testimony given here before Mr. Saxon, he claimed that he had not signed
25 that statement and that you, precisely you, Mr. Jasovic, and I assume
1 Sparavalo who co-signed the statement with you, forced him to give the
2 statement by subjecting him to torture and electrical shocks.
3 I will read this out. I don't have his statement, because I
4 assume it was given in Albanian and then translated into English. I only
5 have the statement in English, but I will read it out to you, or at least
6 a portion of it: "[In English] [Previous translation continues] ... cry
7 and scream and the man began to shout at me, 'You are a member of the
9 [Interpretation] Before that, he says, that you used some sort of
10 electric current or electric shocks to force him to make a statement. Can
11 you comment on those assertions of his?
12 A. I don't have the document in front of me, but I did see the
13 document three weeks ago, as I've already said during the proceedings.
14 However, I said that the person wasn't talking about himself. He gave the
15 names and surnames of members of the KLA from the village of Racak and the
16 surrounding villages. And I say with full responsibility, not only
17 towards Afrim Mustafa but not towards a single person was any force or
18 duress ever applied let alone torture.
19 Well, you don't assume that I signed it instead of him, and that
20 can be sent for expertise and established that way.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just a second. Mr. Jasovic, do
23 you have a clear recollection of the circumstances in which you took the
24 statement from this person?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the person, and I
1 don't know whether the person was taken into custody by the police or
2 whether he came of his own initiative. I don't know and I can't really
3 remember. I don't have a clear recollection.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. But let's clear up one thing: You confirmed the authenticity of
6 the statement since when you saw the document and his signature and your
7 signature and Mr. Sparavalo's signature there was no doubt, according to
8 what you said, that the statement was indeed authentic; is that right?
9 A. Yes. That's what I say now too. I confirm the authenticity of my
10 statement, because Afrim Mustafa, the person interviewed, signed it, and I
11 signed it myself, and I think it was Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo who was with me
12 and signed it as well. I don't have the document in front of me.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was a document that was to be
14 found in tab 52, gentlemen, during the testimony of --
15 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... of this bundle.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And in connection to the testimony of Mrs. Marinkovic -- well, I
19 can give you a copy, or perhaps you can find it in this bundle of
20 documents which you have before you. Mr. Nice was so kind as to draw our
21 attention to the fact that the number of the document was 1.43. Would you
22 take a look at it, please.
23 A. Yes. Here I confirm the authenticity of the statement. And as I
24 said earlier on, I can see that the statement was signed by Mustafa Afrim
25 and myself and my colleague Momcilo Sparavalo. And on the second page,
1 his signature can't be seen, but if necessary, I'm sure that we have this
2 document in the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac, and we can -- I
3 can get it for you in Leskovac too.
4 Q. Well, you're talking about the original. I can see the signature
5 clearly on the first page but not on the second page because the copy
6 isn't clear enough.
7 A. Yes, that's right. And in the middle you have a date. It is the
8 17th of January, 1999. It was a document that was sent from the centre of
9 state security in Urosevac. And from his statement I cannot see at all
10 that he talked about himself. All I can see is that he named the names of
11 KLA members.
12 Q. So your assertion that you shouted at him for being a KLA member
13 has no reference in his statement at all?
14 A. No, but I understand him. He was forced to say that, not to
15 confirm what in fact he sets out in his statement, because not only this
16 man but others too. I don't believe, in fact, that anybody, any Albanian,
17 would confirm any of this for the reasons I've stated. Their lives would
18 be at risk or the lives of their families would be at risk.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, during the testimony
20 of Judge Danica Marinkovic, Mr. Nice pointed out or, rather, challenged
21 tabs 46, 47, 48, 50, 51, 52, and 54. This was tab 52 of the Danica
22 Marinkovic statement. Could you just be so kind and tell me whether those
23 exhibits were admitted into evidence or not so that I can go through the
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, they were admitted into evidence.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
2 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be numbered D295.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We can proceed. We can proceed,
4 Mr. Milosevic.
5 MR. KAY: D290 was the bundle.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'm just going to ask you several more things linked
8 to this subsequent statement made by a few of the witnesses several days
9 ago, a couple of individuals, in fact, who gave statements which you took
10 as your official duty six years ago.
11 Muhamed Xheladini, for instance, explains, and I'm just going to
12 read one sentence: "[In English] I saw blood on the floor of the basement
13 in the Ferizaj Urosevac police station. I became very afraid so I agreed
14 to sign. I did not sign the statement voluntarily."
15 [Interpretation] Now, explain this to me, please: What does the
16 basement look like at the police station or, rather, the Urosevac SUP
17 where he says he saw blood on the walls and he became afraid and that's
18 why he signed?
19 A. I worked at the Secretariat of the Interior since May 1981 up
20 until our departure on the 12th of June, 1999, and I have no idea that
21 there is a basement in our secretariat building except the boiler room.
22 Secondly, I know that in Prizren there is a duty officer and that
23 there is a detention room where persons taken into custody are brought
24 obstructing law and order, and that's on the ground floor.
25 Q. So what you're saying, Mr. Jasovic, is that there is no basement.
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And he said that he saw blood on the floor of the basement, and
3 you say there's no basement.
4 A. I claim that this person is telling untruths.
5 Q. Mr. Jasovic, where did you actually take these statements from the
6 people you interviewed, you and your colleague Sparavalo or any other
7 inspector that happened to be working in the Urosevac SUP?
8 A. All the statements and the interviews we had with individuals were
9 conducted in my own office. It was number 59 on the third floor.
10 Q. Is it customary for interviews of this kind to be conducted in an
11 office in which the inspector in question works, you or your colleague?
12 A. Yes, Mr. President. I don't know of any other room or office in
13 which interviews would be conducted with individuals except with
14 informers. And at the request of informers, we would have a meeting
15 outside the SUP building and the Urosevac immediate area around it.
16 Q. Right. So you're talking about the contacts with informers, with
17 persons who wanted to give you information because they didn't want other
18 people to find out that you were meeting with them; is that right? Is
19 that what all this is about?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Very well. Very well. And all the other statements
22 related to the event in Racak or other cases that you investigated, would
23 you take all the statements in this -- in the same way that you took
24 statements from Afrim Mustafa, Xheladini, and all the others, the third
25 man who is also mentioned here and went into some explanations saying that
1 he did not in fact make the statement?
2 A. Not only the statements that were taken with respect to the event
3 in Racak but also statements taken on other -- about other events I say
4 with full responsibility were taken pursuant to the provisions of the law
5 on criminal procedure, and I fully respect those provisions to this day.
6 Q. A third man, Emini is his name, Shemsi Emini, who gave a statement
7 explained that there were policemen who had baseball bats and that they
8 beat him for ten minutes with the baseball bats. May I have your comments
9 on that statement of his.
10 A. Baseball bats? I say with full responsibility, and other batons
11 or truncheons, is not something that I had in my office. And I say from
12 1986 as a crime policeman I was never issued batons or truncheons, rubber
13 ones. And the person that said this, well, I don't know.
14 Q. When you said that you weren't issued a rubber truncheon, you mean
15 the regular type of police rubber truncheon?
16 A. That's right. And I was never issued one. Quite certainly I was
18 Q. All right. And do you know of a single case where during an
19 interview of an individual in your secretariat that the person was ever
20 beaten at the police station and forced to provide information about the
22 A. No, I don't know about that, of any such case.
23 Q. All the statements that you took from the persons you interviewed,
24 were they signed by those persons in their own hands -- in their own hand
25 and on every page if it was a document of several pages?
1 A. All the statements that we took, in most cases the interviewee
2 would sign and sign on every page and also at the end of the statement.
3 However, perhaps because we were working all the time the person might not
4 have signed the statement on every single page but just signed the
5 statement at the end.
6 Q. All right. And before the signing, before they were asked to
7 sign, would you read back the statement to the interviewee before he
9 A. Every statement was dictated out loud and then it was handed over
10 to the interviewee to read. However, if the individual in question did
11 not know or understand Serbian, then the statement would be translated
12 into his mother tongue by myself or my colleague, and we also had Albanian
13 colleagues who would come in to help us out in the translation. And also
14 we have employees who are translators as well.
15 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, in what way would you contact
16 individuals related to the event in Racak, both before and after the 15th
17 of January when the conflict broke out between the police and terrorists
18 in Racak?
19 A. Both before the events in Racak and after the events in Racak, all
20 our information and knowledge would come to us on the basis of interviews
21 conducted with Albanians. That is to say we would take statements from
22 Albanians who would come to us at their own initiative to report on
23 certain events, and also from individuals who were taken into custody by
24 the police who were in some suspect place or in the war area, or on the
25 basis of information received from informers or from any friendly
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. And what knowledge did you gain about the number of KLA members in
3 the Stimlje area, whether they were armed, and so on and so forth, how
4 many weapons and so on?
5 A. At the beginning of June 1998, the -- what we learnt is this:
6 That the main headquarters and staff was set up in the Rance village,
7 Stimlje municipality, that the commander of the headquarters was Isak
8 Musliu, Qerqiz, and his deputy was Kortisa Zumber [phoen], nicknamed Mele
9 [phoen], and after that, at the beginning of June, 1998, Isak Musliu,
10 through a representative of the DSK, the party of Mr. Ibrahim Rugova,
11 organised a meeting with the locals in the mosque in the village of Racak,
12 and at the meeting he said that a staff had been set up, a KLA staff and
13 headquarters had been set up in the village of Rance, that the KLA was
14 taking over all control and power and authority and that they did not
15 listen to the orders issued by other political parties formed by
16 Albanians, that they had to listen to their orders. And at the meeting a
17 civilian protection organisation was set up to deal with fortification of
18 the terrain and to deal with other things as well, such as the
19 establishment of its checkpoints at the approach not only to the village
20 of Racak but on the roads in the surrounding villages leading into Racak
21 in order to stop the police and any other Albanians that were suspect.
22 At the meeting a commission was also set up for the purchase --
23 I'm talking about the meeting in the mosque in the village of Racak. A
24 commission was also set up for the purchase of weapons and other
25 requirements of the members of the KLA; foodstuffs, cooking oil, fuel,
1 flour, et cetera.
2 After that, a headquarters was set up in the village of Racak,
3 where, as I said, the staff commander was Afet Bilalli, he was appointed -
4 his nickname was Qopa - and the deputy was Juci Bilalli [phoen], who was
5 killed during the conflict in the village of Racak.
6 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... to check to see
7 whether this is information coming from statements of people whose names
8 are available to us or whether this is information coming from the other
9 category of material which is informants, and then the Chamber will have
10 to decide whether it's willing to accept information if it's anonymous,
11 and I would respectfully remind the Chamber of the views it expressed in
12 the course of the evidence of General Ivasov who sought to give evidence
13 that wasn't going to be available for confidential reasons to us.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Wasn't that to the effect that ultimately it's of
15 the weight the Chamber will attach to the evidence?
16 MR. NICE: Your Honour indicated that the material was almost
17 valueless, but certainly before we go on hearing a long narrative of this
18 kind, it would be helpful to know what the source is and the Chamber
19 decide how to deal with it.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the source of this information, the
21 information that you have given us?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the information I presented is
23 based on interviews conducted where statements were taken from informers
24 and friendly contacts.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. In order to clarify this, precisely this, what you said just now,
2 Mr. Jasovic, I would like to draw your attention to tab 2.23. That is a
3 piece of information. The date is the 20th of January, 1999. This
4 provides a very precise description of everything that was done in the
5 village of Racak, and finally, there is a long list of members of the KLA,
6 giving their first and last names, in the village of Racak. Can you find
7 this document, and could you give your comments on it? I would like to
8 draw your attention to page 2, paragraph 3, which is very short, and it
9 says: "On the basis of operative information, we have details that
10 recently there were over 100 members of the so-called KLA in the village
11 of Racak." That is what is stated in this report. Not to read out all
12 the names because there is no need for that.
13 A. Yes. This is a document of mine, one that was signed by myself
14 and Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo.
15 Q. Could you please explain this now. We have two types of documents
16 here. One type are interviews of certain persons, and you explained that
17 after the interview you read out the statement to the said person and then
18 you sign it and the said person signs it. And the other type are such
19 reports, such pieces of information. How do you get this information?
20 A. Specifically this information we got from an informer. As for
21 statements, we get them from interviewees, as I said.
22 Q. All right. All right, Mr. Jasovic. Now we are going to move on
23 to something which will probably have to be dealt with very precisely.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic. Is the witness in a position to
25 give us more information about the informers?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've already explained last time
2 in the Fatmir Limaj, Isak Musliu trial, I had one registered informer, and
3 his first name and last name is something that I could give you in closed
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the report at 2.23 was prepared by yourself
7 and Momcilo Sparavalo.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. We'll go in closed session so that we
10 can hear the name. Private session, yes.
11 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Since we're not going to mention this person's name any more,
5 could you just explain as briefly as possible what does "registered
6 informer" mean when you use that expression?
7 A. The head of the said authority, that is to say the head of the
8 SUP, gives a particular assignment to a person he trusts to deal with a
9 registered informer, and then the registered informer's details are
10 registered in a particular book. I never saw this book, but it was the
11 head of the OKP, Branko Debeljkovic, who kept that book in our office. As
12 to registered informers, all his details are there and all the information
13 I obtained from him are in those particular files, in the files of that
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic. Did you discuss the weapons that members
16 of the KLA had?
17 A. You mean in the village of Racak?
18 Q. Yes. Yes.
19 A. Prior to the events in the village of Racak, and then that was
20 confirmed after the event concerned and after the on-site investigation,
21 we had had information that members of the KLA in the village of Racak
22 have a large quantity of weapons available; automatic rifles, hand-held
23 mortars, machine-guns, hand grenades, and other pieces of equipment and
24 ammunition. The very fact that a large quantity of weapons was taken
25 away, seized during the said action corroborates that, and these weapons
1 were at the SUP of Urosevac.
2 Also, I could say that the KLA from its very inception resorted to
3 terrorism as a means to attain their political objective of an independent
4 Kosovo. In order to achieve that, a large quantity of weapons was
5 indispensable for them, for every member of the KLA, in order to carry out
6 terrorist attacks against the civilians, ethnic Albanians and ethnic
7 Serbs, and against members of the police force.
8 I claim with full responsibility that most of these weapons were
9 illegally brought in from Albania in 1997 and in 1998 after the
10 insurrection of the Albanians in the northern part of Albania when
11 practically anarchy reigned and when the state authorities could not
12 prevent Albanian gangs from stealing weapons and ammunition from military
13 army depots. Most of those weapons were illegally brought into Kosovo and
14 Metohija then, including the village of Racak.
15 Q. All right.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jasovic, just to return to the registered
17 informer. Is a registered informer paid or offered any other kind of
18 material benefit?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I'm not sure. You
20 can ask the former head, Mr. Bogoljub Janicevic, about that, because I was
21 an operations man, an inspector. I think that some remuneration was
22 given, but I'm not sure, because I was involved in my own line of work.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. In order to be as brief as possible, Mr. Jasovic, or, rather, to
2 use time as rationally as possible, I will kindly ask you to look at
3 Schedule A in this Kosovo indictment. That is a list of persons killed in
4 Racak on the 15th of January, 1999. There are 40 names there. These are
5 persons who had been identified. They were the subject of expertise and
6 so on.
7 Do you perhaps have that list before you?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please ask someone to give
10 the witness that list. That is on page 41, Schedule A. In Serbian it's
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, 43 in English.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Have you got it now?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, please, Mr. Jasovic, when preparing for your testimony, my
17 associates went through these statements and reports that you had
18 gathered, and they established that out of these 40 persons in Schedule A,
19 that in the various documents that you presented here now, that is to say
20 this binder containing statements, there are 30 persons, 30 out of these
21 40, that is. So could you kindly have a look at this, starting with
22 number -- actually, there aren't any numbers on this list, but can you
23 find the third name, Bajrami Ragip.
24 A. Yes, I've found it.
25 Q. Now look at tab 1.35, please. 1.35. Is Bajrami Ragip in tab
2 A. I can say that it is correct that on the basis of statements,
3 Official Notes, and reports, 30 persons on this list in Schedule A were
4 members of the KLA, based on the information that we had. I think this is
5 on the first page.
6 Q. I have information here stating that the name of Bajrami Ragip is
7 on the first page in tab 1.35.
8 A. Just a moment, please. On the first page?
9 Q. Here he is, on page 2. It says Bajrami, son of Jahir, Ragip.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You can find his name.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now please look at tab 1.50. That is also a statement that you
15 A. Yes. This is a statement that I co-signed, yes.
16 Q. All right. You took it from the person you interviewed.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I have a note here stating that in that document also there is
19 mention of Bajrami Ragip. Here he is. It says here in the one but last
20 paragraph on page 2, it says Bajrami Ragip. Can you identify that?
21 JUDGE KWON: In the middle of page 3 in the English version.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I have found the said person,
23 Bajrami Ragip.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Now look at tab 1.51, please, and again there is mention of
1 Bajrami Ragip in the statement that you took.
2 A. On the 11th of February, 1999.
3 Q. Yes. Bajrami Ragip is mentioned there as well. Eight lines from
4 the bottom of the text of the page upwards.
5 A. Yes, I found it.
6 Q. Bajrami Ragip again.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you please have a look at tab 1.54. Again there is mention
9 of Bajrami Ragip in that statement that you took as well. Can you find it
11 MR. KAY: It's got page 4 on the bottom of the English one and
12 it's about a third of the way down, Ragip, in the list of names.
13 JUDGE KWON: If you could assist me in finding that name in tab
15 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the first page.
16 MR. KAY: First page. Yes. About eight lines up from the bottom.
17 Zymeri is the first line, first word.
18 JUDGE KWON: I'm grateful.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Here in this statement in tab 1.54, Ragip Bajrami --
21 A. Is on the second page.
22 Q. Oh, you've found it.
23 A. Yes, yes. It says here that Ragip Bajrami from Racak village was
24 killed in Racak as a member of the KLA.
25 Q. Very well. Now, that's the bottom of the second page listing the
1 names. And there's also a list of names, and then it says that "in
2 addition to these persons, the following were also in the KLA," and then
3 there is a long list of names with tasks of these people. It indicates
4 who was wounded where, who was the member of the military, and so on, who
5 was in charge of illegal border crossings, who was wounded at the border,
6 and so on.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. So this is a list as well. Now, Mr. Jasovic, Ragip
9 Bajrami, who is on Schedule A, can be found in four statements compiled by
10 you, in 1.35, 1.50, 1.51, and 1.54. So these statements were taken from
11 four different persons. Is that clear based on this, Mr. Jasovic?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. Very well. Now, let us take a look at the next person, Halim
14 Beqiri. In tab 1.50 you can find his name, the name of Halim Beqiri.
15 A. 1.50?
16 Q. Yes, 1.50.
17 MR. KAY: Page 3 of the English, about halfway along. The line
18 starts "Halim," and then you see a Beqiri below it.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Halim Beqiri. All right, so in tab 1.50 we have a statement
21 taken by you. You co-signed it together with Sparavalo, and mention is
22 made of Halim Beqiri.
23 A. Yes. I found him on page 2, the second line.
24 Q. All right. Now take a look at the third person, Bilalli Lutfi.
25 He can also be found on Schedule A, as well as in tab 1.41.
1 A. Yes. I found that person, Lutfi Bilalli, son of Hasan, member of
2 the KLA and was in charge of the civilian defence within the KLA.
3 Q. Yes. And this statement was given on the 12th of January, 1999,
4 which means that the statement was given before the event in Racak.
5 A. I've found another date in tab 1.50.
6 Q. We will get to 1.50 eventually, but we have Lutfi Bilalli in tab
7 1.41. Please take a look at 1.41. That's what I asked you. I think that
8 Mr. Kay told you that that can be found in 1.41.
9 A. Yes, I found it.
10 Q. That's a statement that you took on the 12th of January.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. And then we can find Lutfi Bilalli in tab 1.43.
13 A. Yes, I've found it in tab 1.43. Bilalli Lutfi, son of Hasan.
14 Q. Therefore, he is mentioned in the statement of this person who
15 denied this. Well, let me just make sure it's the same person. It is.
16 Afrim Mustafa. No, no. That's another person. Afrim Mustafa, yes.
17 Then take a look at tab 1.45. We can find Lutfi Bilalli there as
19 A. Yes, I've found the person. This statement is dated the 17th of
20 January, 1999.
21 Q. Very well. Now, please let us take a look at the statement in
22 1.50 where Lutfi Bilalli is mentioned also.
23 MR. KAY: Page 3 of the English.
24 JUDGE KWON: Page 2.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've found the person.
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Very well. You've found it?
3 A. Yes, I have.
4 Q. Very well. Now, let us take a look at the statement given by
5 another person, in tab 1.51, and the name of Lutfi Bilalli can be found in
6 that statement as well. Third paragraph from the top, in the middle of
7 the paragraph. Then in tab 1.53. Once again in third paragraph from the
8 top, in the middle of that paragraph, we see the name of Lutfi Bilalli. Is
9 that the same person?
10 A. Yes, the same person from Racak.
11 Q. In 1.55, tab 1.55.
12 A. Yes. His name is mentioned first in this statement.
13 Q. Have you found him in 1.55?
14 A. Yes, yes. This is the statement taken on the 7th of March, 1999.
15 Q. All right. And in report --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: That doesn't appear to be the 1.55 we have.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1.55. I assume you must have the
18 same document.
19 MR. KAY: It might be 1.56.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: 1.55 is a statement of the 30th of January.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, 1.56.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: In 1.55, the Serbian
23 version is the one Mr. Milosevic is referring to.
24 Microphone for Mr. Milosevic.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. The person giving the statement has the following ID number and
2 personal identification number, and then he says: "I personally know that
3 the following persons from Racak, Stimlje municipality, are members of the
4 KLA currently," and then he goes on to list about 26 names, as I was able
5 to gather, to count, and the ninth is Lutfi Bilalli.
6 Have you found that, Mr. Jasovic?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: It doesn't correspond with what we have.
8 MR. KAY: In fact, if you go to the B/C/S 1.55, the liaison
9 officer has helpfully pointed out that one.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. It's in the B/C/S, missing in the
12 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it would look as though the English
13 translation associated with the B/C/S at 1.55 is incorrectly associated,
14 because 1.55 in the B/C/S is dated the 7th of March, and whereas the
15 English version that's been associated is dated the 30th of January. So
16 there's obviously an incorrect association been made, and the better
17 course might be for us for the time being to extract the English version,
18 which is marked as tab 1.55, and see where it is subsequently to be
20 While I'm on my feet and in order to assist, the Chamber might
21 like to observe, and the accused might like to observe that the way the
22 file has been composed, tab 1.50, 1.50, would appear to be identical with
23 tab 1.56. If so, there will be a seeming duplication of entries in
24 relation to particular individuals, but it would be in fact the same tab.
25 Now, if I'm right about that, it might be that the appropriate
1 course, again, would be to cross through or to extract 1.56 as a
2 duplicate. The accused will probably want to take some seconds to check
3 that, but that would appear to be the position.
4 MR. KAY: English tab 1.55 should be at 1.47, I notice.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice and Mr. Kay.
6 Continue, Mr. Milosevic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. All right. So with Lutfi Bilalli, we can see that you were able
10 to find his name mentioned in eight, eight different statements given by
11 eight different persons. All of them mention him. Whereas in tab 2.23,
12 which is a report compiled based on, I assume, the information you had.
13 Just a minute ago you explained to us certain facts related to 100
14 members of the KLA, which is the information you received from a
15 registered informer. And in this report, Lutfi Bilalli is mentioned as
16 well, in 2.23. Can you find him in 2.23, please.
17 A. Yes. I found him on the first page of this report.
18 Q. Yes, that's right. The second paragraph from above, Bilalli
20 Bilalli Afet is mentioned here serving as commander of the KLA in
21 the village of Rance for a brief period of time. Are they relatives?
22 A. He was not the KLA commander in Rance but, rather, in Racak.
23 Otherwise, they're brothers.
24 Q. All right. Thank you. Therefore, in all of these documents we
25 were able to see that the person listed in Schedule A is a member of the
2 Now, let us take a look at Ajet Emini. Let's find him in tab 1.2.
3 Can you find Ajet Emini in tab 1.2?
4 MR. NICE: Your Honours, while we're doing that, may I withdraw
5 for literally two minutes? The flow of work needn't be interrupted.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to draw your attention,
8 gentlemen, to the fact that this statement taken by Inspectors Jasovic and
9 Sparavalo was taken on the 23rd of August, 1998. Therefore, Emini Ajet is
10 mentioned in tab 1.2, and then let's see 1.51, tab 1.51.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you find his name in tab 1.51? Once again, this is a
13 statement taken by you and your colleague Sparavalo.
14 A. Yes. I've found him at the bottom of the page, taken on the 11th
15 of February, 1999.
16 Q. Very well. I hope that others were able to find it as well. And
17 the name is also mentioned in report under 2.23 that we discussed just a
18 minute ago. His name is mentioned there as well. Can you confirm that,
20 A. Report under 2.23?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Yes. I've found him in the list of the members of the KLA on page
24 Q. Page 3, very well.
25 JUDGE KWON: In the middle of page 4 of the English version.
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Now, the next person that can be found in several of your
3 documents is Hajrizi Bujar. You can find him in tab 1.43. Have you found
4 it? Hajrizi Bujar.
5 A. Bujar, Hanifi, Hajrizi. Yes, I've found it. 16th of January,
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, how many of the names in Schedule
8 A do you say are mentioned in these statements, 30?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thirty, Mr. Robinson, yes.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, are you in a position to -- to agree
11 that 30 of these names in Schedule A are included in those statements?
12 MR. NICE: We reach a figure of about 25, and there is a high
13 level of correlation between the work of the accused's associates, which
14 of course I'm just learning about in court, and our analysis. The
15 differences so far are either because the accused's workings has added in
16 people whom the references don't seem to be references to KLA membership
17 but references to some other activity and/or because we don't have
18 translations. I don't think there are any other variations between the
19 lists that he's produced and what we've so far been able to calculate.
20 Just give me one minute.
21 There are also some uncertainties as to the names in our workings,
22 but of course if the accused is in a position to make available a schedule
23 of some kind, we will of course check it.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're in a position to agree that at least 25.
25 MR. NICE: Something in the region of 25 are there, but of course
1 we -- for the purposes of our work, we need to know what are the names --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, obviously.
3 MR. NICE: -- that he's asserting are revealed, and probably --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: If we had those names, Mr. Milosevic, then we
5 could save time.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'll give you the
7 names or, rather, the title. It's not in English but it says a list of
8 persons on the list in Schedule A of the Kosovo indictment from which it
9 has been established that they were members of the terrorist KLA, and then
10 the names and surnames follow, and the tabs in which their affiliation to
11 the KLA was established, their membership there. So after the name, and
12 the names are very legible because they've been typed out in the Latin
13 script as they are indeed in Schedule A and as you'll find them in the
14 tabs, and then the next column is the numbers of the tabs containing the
15 names. So you have 3, Bilalli Lutfi, for example, and then in the column
16 it says tab 1.40, 1.43, 51, 53, et cetera. So it's very easy to match
17 them up and to identify them. And I'll be happy to provide you with
18 that --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could that be passed to the --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- for purposes of comparison. Yes,
21 here you are.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Pass it on to the Prosecutor.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would the usher be so kind as to
24 take over the document.
25 And you'll find your way in the list very easily. I think it's
1 very clear.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: What we'll do is we'll have a look at it, then
3 pass it on to the Prosecutor, have copies made, and we'll take the break
4 now so that the Prosecutor can, in the break, examine the list and see the
5 -- where there is a correspondence between his own information and what is
6 on the list.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kay, can you help with the current one? I'm
8 struggling to identify the one we're looking at at the moment and 1 -- I
9 think it's in 1.43 --
10 MR. KAY: Yes, it's page 2 on the English. If you go up one, two,
11 three, four, lines, it's Ajrizi, A-j-r-i-z-i.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a different -- The other name is different.
13 It's not the name that we've been given.
14 MR. KAY: I thought it was that one. I may have misheard.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the accused.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
18 MR. KAY: It's got the H in front and there is -- this may be an
19 issue for the Prosecution as well on identifying names, that there's an
20 obvious reason for what is not a misspell but a different way of writing a
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Okay. We'll take the break now, and the
23 Prosecutor can in the interim make an examination of the list for
25 We are adjourned for 20 minutes.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, what has your examination revealed?
4 MR. NICE: We have been able to compare the accused's list with
5 our workings. Where we had not found a name on the indictment Schedule A
6 to be covered by this material, we've looked at the accused's identifying
7 tab references, and in all cases we have been able to agree that he
8 identifies names that are almost certainly names on Schedule A.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: All 30.
10 MR. NICE: So it comes up to a total of 30.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thirty.
12 MR. NICE: And the reasons for differences are hardly material,
13 but sometimes there are ambiguities of names and sometimes there is
14 ambiguity as to whether the statement is saying that somebody is a member
15 of the KLA or a provider of food. That's not for now.
16 We have therefore added to our workings all the tab references
17 that the accused had identified and that we had not relied upon, to make
18 our list inclusive.
19 We also had some other references beyond those that the accused
20 had, and for there to be an all-inclusive listing, it might help the
21 accused, and it won't take very long, if I identify name by name. It's
22 about ten or a dozen additional references, and if the Chamber wanted to
23 write these additional references onto the list that the accused has
24 provided, then there will be a comprehensive list of all possible name
25 references found in this -- these materials.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please.
2 MR. NICE: So our only additional ones start off at Myfail
3 Hajrizi, which is number 6, and although it's not very clear to us, 2.5
4 and 2.19 might be added in respect of that name. So that's Myfail
5 Hajrizi, 2.5 and 2.19.
6 Haqif Hysenaj, number 8, we find also in 2.18.
7 Going down to number 13, Esref Jakupi, 2.18 could be added again.
8 Going further down to Fatmir Limani, we find a reference in 2.19.
9 Moving on to number 19, Bajram Mehmeti, we also find a possible
10 reference at 1.44.
11 I hope I'm not going too fast, but I can't -- and the next one for
12 which we find an additional reference is Arif Metushi, number 21, and we
13 find an additional reference for Arif Metushi possibly in 1.40; and
14 similarly with Haki Metushi, number 22, there is a possible additional
15 reference in 1.40.
16 Mustafa Muhamet, number 23, we believe there may be an additional
17 reference at 2.19.
18 And then to Syla Sheremet, number 27, we believe there may be an
19 additional reference at 2.19.
20 And the last addition would be Njazi Zymeri, number 30, for whom
21 we think there may be an additional reference at 2.23.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.
23 So, Mr. Milosevic, that relieves you of the burden of going
24 through your lists, unless there is any particular matter in the
25 statements that you wish to refer to.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm happy that the opposite
2 side was able to establish that 30 of the names in the documents that were
3 presented are there. Then I won't go on to establish whether the names
4 are in the tabs, because I hope we've established that.
5 But before I continue, Mr. Robinson, I feel it my duty, and that
6 is why I asked them to find the transcript, to react to what Mr. Nice said
7 a moment ago with respect to General Ivasov's testimony, because Mr. Nice
8 said a moment ago that you did not attach any weight to that testimony,
9 and I'm going to read from the transcript what you said, Mr. Robinson.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You said this, it's on page 33731:
12 "Mr. Milosevic, are you bringing any evidence to support [In English] what
13 the witness has confirmed in response to your question, which is that your
14 forces only reacted to terrorism or, rather, that the Russian members of
15 the Verification Mission reported that your forces, the Yugoslav forces,
16 only reacted to terrorism? Are you going to bring any evidence to support
18 "THE ACCUSED: Naturally. I also have in mind witnesses,
19 officials of our police and our army, as well as witnesses from Kosovo. I
20 cannot enumerate all the others now, but this is very important witness we
21 have here because he represents the military leadership of Russia, which
22 is the spot where all the information was gathered, especially during
23 these events in Kosovo."
24 Then you are explaining: "JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it's a matter
25 for you how you conduct your case, but he has made an important statement,
1 and the Chamber will have to assess to determine the weight to be attached
2 to it, and naturally the Chamber will give greater weight to it if it is
3 backed up by documentary evidence."
4 [Interpretation] And then on page 33734, you say the following:
5 "[In English] Now, I consider that to be very important. The Chamber
6 would be able to attach much more weight to this evidence if you were to
7 bring evidence to support that, either documentary evidence or evidence
8 from any of Russian officers who were a part of that mission to establish
9 that their reports were not taken into account. ...
10 "So don't rely entirely on his evidence on this point. If you
11 have other evidence to bring, it will boost your case ... to confirm the
12 point that you are making."
13 [Interpretation] Therefore, Mr. Robinson, at no point did you say
14 that you do not attach any importance to the testimony of General Ivasov,
15 but you exclusively indicated the fact that greater weight will be
16 attached if the testimony is supported by certain documents. And that is
17 why I consider that what Mr. Nice said in undermining General Ivasov's
18 testimony is not proper, nor did he quote what you said accurately.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic. I don't think this is
20 going to be very helpful.
21 MR. NICE: No, Your Honour. Simply to remind the Chamber that I
22 was focused simply on the question of the difficulty of evidence where the
23 witness says he cannot produce the evidence, and the exchange went very
24 shortly like this: That the witness said that he had no power to provide
25 a document because he had no power to do so and was not mandated by his
1 government to do so, and before I was able to make an objection, Your
2 Honour said, "You will realise, then, Mr. Milosevic, that the evidence is
3 almost valueless. If the document he read from cannot be passed over to
4 the Court for the reasons that he has just outlined, the evidence is
5 valueless because it is not then going to be able to be tested."
6 So we were only looking at and considering that part of his
7 evidence that was dependent upon the secret information. It was analogous
8 to that that I drew your attention to the position with this witness's
9 evidence, but we've moved on a little from then now because he's said
10 things in the course of this morning about his sources which distinguish
11 it from that position, although I'd like to return to that a little later.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Then I think we should move on,
13 Mr. Milosevic. Thanks very much.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'm not going to dwell on comparing Schedule A of the
16 persons killed in Racak with the other information from the many
17 statements of yours, but let's now establish something else. When, during
18 what period, did you learn, did you receive information about the
19 terrorist activities in the Racak area and the surrounding parts within
20 the frameworks of your regular duties as a crime inspector in the police
22 Take a look at tab 1.2 first, please, and tell me whether this
23 person, in August 1998, provided you with a statement. It is six months
24 prior to the events in Racak. In August 1998, did you receive information
25 about members of the KLA in the village of Racak?
1 A. I can state here and now that on the basis of the statements,
2 official reports and information prior to the incident in the village of
3 Racak and the statements and reports after the incident or event in Racak,
4 from Albanian informers and other informers we learnt and received
5 information about KLA members in the village of Racak, and this was
6 confirmed, namely that most of them were from the village of Racak and the
7 surrounding villages.
8 Q. Thank you. So the information that is documented here in tab 1.2,
10 Now, take a look at the next tab, 1.3, the 29th of August, 1998 is
11 the date. You took a statement there?
12 A. Yes, the 29th of August, 1998.
13 Q. It is tab 1.3. Tell me, please, did this person provide you with
14 information about KLA members as well in Racak and the Stimlje area?
15 A. Yes. They were members of the KLA from the village of Racak, as I
16 can see here, from the village of Petrovo and the surrounding villages.
17 Q. Very well. Now, yesterday we established where Racak, Petrovo,
18 Rance and all the rest were. It's an area of several kilometres within
19 that radius.
20 Now, take a look at the following tab, tab 1.4, and that is two
21 days later and the date is the 31st of August, 1998, this time. And what
22 information did you obtain there?
23 A. This is a statement taken on the 31st of August, 1998, in which
24 the person interviewed gives us the names of Bajrush from the village of
25 et cetera, et cetera. It is a former policeman that we're talking about
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, and he left his job in 1990, and
2 then Hisenaj Ramadan, Hisenaj Bedri, Hisenaj Fadil from the village of
3 Petrovo, Musliu Ramadan, sons -- from the village of Racak, and we learnt
4 later about their names, that they were sons of Smajl, et cetera. We
5 learnt these names later on, of the sons; Smajli, Musliu, et cetera.
6 Q. Now, take a look at tab 1.5, the next tab in line. When did you
7 take that particular statement?
8 A. We took the statement on the 3rd of September, 1998.
9 Q. And what information did that give you?
10 A. The interviewee, I knew him from earlier on, and he was talking
11 about things linked to the staff and headquarters of KLA -- of the KLA in
12 Rance, the 100 -- the first staff of the 121st Brigade, in fact. And I
13 assume that it lists the names of persons who joined the KLA in the
14 village of Rance. I haven't read it through, but to the best of my
15 recollection that's what it's about.
16 Q. You mean you haven't read it now, again now?
17 A. That's right, but I remember that this person said that in the
18 village of Rance there was a canteen and that there was a bakery that had
19 been built for baking bread.
20 Q. Yes. There's an addition to this statement talking about the
21 bakery and so on because there was a concentration there of KLA members
22 and required it. And there are two documents in tab 1.5. One is the
23 statement, and then we have an addition to the statement about the
24 building of the bakery and the organisation there.
25 Very well. Now, in tab 1.6, a statement which you also took on
1 the 5th of September, 1998. Would you take a look at that, please.
2 A. Yes, the date is the 5th of September, 1998, and I know about this
3 case. The individual reported the case. During the night of the 4th of
4 September, 1998, around 2400 hours some people were abducted and taken to
5 an unknown direction. We learnt later that these people were taken to a
6 shed in Malopoljce. The abducted person was tied up with a rope and
7 somehow he managed to untie the knot and escape. After having fled, he
8 came to the Secretariat of the Interior at his own initiative and reported
9 the case of his very own kidnapping.
10 Q. All right. Let's not go into the description of everything he
11 said, but can we see the names here? And is there information here about
12 actual names and weapons?
13 A. I'm looking at the last paragraph here. "A person wearing a
14 camouflage uniform walked into the shed. I recognised him because he went
15 to school with me, Fadil, son of Sadik, Mujota is the person concerned.
16 When he recognised me he told the guard that I was not to be beaten any
17 more." That is the quotation.
18 I can't find everything I'm looking for here. Also, "Jakupi
19 Xhabir is a person I mentioned, I recognised," he says, "from Racak
20 village who was in a camouflage uniform with KLA insignia. His rifle was
21 pointed at me. Another person in a camouflage uniform was with an
22 automatic rifle and a big beard was standing next to him. The two of them
23 came into the room I had been sleeping in with my wife and children."
24 Q. You don't have to read everything. The person who gave you the
25 statement, is he an Albanian?
1 A. Yes, this is an ethnic Albanian.
2 Q. He was arrested by the KLA?
3 A. Yes, kidnapped, abducted by force.
4 Q. He mentions the names of these persons here, members of the KLA,
5 and their weapons. In the statement and in the annex to the statement.
6 Is this the authentic statement that you actually took from him after the
7 event described --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- where he was the damaged party?
10 A. Yes. This is an authentic statement the kidnapped person gave. I
11 can confirm that he signed the said statement, as well as myself and my
12 colleague Momcilo Sparavalo.
13 Q. All right. Would you look at tab 1.7 now. Do you remember this?
14 Just glance at it, let's not dwell on it too long. Is that the statement
15 that you took from him? Does it indicate -- well, it says: "I saw
16 Avdyli's brother. I don't know his name, except that I know they owned
17 the Atlantik cafe in Stimlje. He was in civilian clothing and had an
18 automatic rifle. He was with another person I didn't know who also had an
19 automatic rifle." This statement is all of two pages and he gives various
20 names here.
21 A. Yes. I can confirm the authenticity of this statement, because
22 the said person signed the statement as well as myself, Momcilo Sparavalo,
23 and also Vujinovic from the state security service.
24 Q. In one of the statements that was taken by Mr. Nice's staff about
25 as far as the incorrectness of what was done is concerned, it was said
1 that your statements are typed out on a computer, and I see here they are
3 A. No, they were never typed out on a computer. You can see here
4 that they were all typed out on a typewriter. And these are authentic
5 statements. As I said, I can confirm their authenticity because it is the
6 interviewee who signed the statement as well as I and my colleague. These
7 are authentic. This is authentic information provided by the interviewee.
8 Q. All right. Please look at the statement contained in tab 1.8.
9 That is also September 1998. Towards the end of page 1, "From the village
10 of Racak the first person to join the KLA was Sadiku and he had an
11 automatic rifle that he owned illegally and he was joined in the KLA by
12 Nebi, son of Smajl Musliu; Nesret, son of Ramadan Musliu; Afrim, son of
13 Ramadan Musliu," et cetera. There are about 20 persons mentioned here and
14 I'm not going to read out all of their names. And then it says that
15 Hajnija Salihu, with Rifat Imeri, who was from the Lapusnik village, came
16 to the KLA --
17 A. No, the village is Laniste.
18 Q. But it says Lapusnik here in the text. Then there are a great
19 many members of the KLA that are mentioned here.
20 On page 2 it also says, "A month ago Isak Rasiti came to my house
21 and he was going to the house of Isak Musliu in Racak. I accepted that
22 and I found Shefqet, son of Ramadan Musliu," and so on and so forth, and
23 then here he mentions who was wearing camouflage uniform, who was wearing
24 civilian clothing, who was wearing a black uniform, and it says they were
25 all armed with automatic rifles except Shefqet.
1 You got this statement from this person who you interviewed on the
2 8th of September, 1998.
3 A. I claim that his details are correct. This person resided in
4 Racak and he himself saw all movements and all activities of KLA members.
5 And he knew where the KLA headquarters were. And as far as I can see, he
6 referred to a meeting that was held in the beginning of June at the
7 mosque. He also saw members of the KLA in the village of Racak wearing
8 camouflage uniforms with UCK insignia on them, or KLA insignia on them,
9 and they also had weapons.
10 Q. All right. Since you do not want to say, and that is fully
11 justified, what the actual names are, you don't want to go into that in
12 public session, can it be seen here that this is an Albanian employed --
13 who is employed?
14 A. Yes. This is an ethnic Albanian who had a permanent job, yes.
15 Q. All right. Was it your assessment that when you got such
16 statements you could consider them to be sufficiently credible and that
17 you could rely on information that you received in this way?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. With this many details and explanations?
20 A. Yes. As I already mentioned, these are details, and these persons
21 were primarily from those villages where KLA headquarters were.
22 Q. Did this person come of his own free will and give a statement or
23 was he arrested? Can you remember?
24 A. I could not remember, but I see here that he was brought into
25 custody to the Urosevac SUP. I see that in line 1. It says, "Was
1 detained in the Urosevac SUP."
2 Q. All right. Mr. Jasovic, please look at tab 1.9. That is also the
3 10th of September, 1998. Is that a statement that you took as well?
4 A. The statement taken on the 10th of September, 1998, concerns a
5 person who came at his own initiative to report the case concerned. He
6 was kidnapped and taken to a prison in Lapusnik. He also reported the
7 kidnapping of his father.
8 Q. All right. These are Albanians who were victims of the KLA. He
9 explained that persons armed with Chinese-made automatic rifles, et
10 cetera. That practically means that they come from arsenals from Albania;
11 is that right?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. He said that he was in the prison in Gornji Lapusnik. Did you
14 have any other information about this prison in Gornji Lapusnik?
15 A. Yes, I did; that several persons who were ethnic Albanians and
16 ethnic Serbs kidnapped and taken to the notorious prison in Lapusnik. If
17 necessary, I can give their names. These are persons from Donje Godance,
18 from Belince, from Racak. Specifically I could mention a person here from
19 the village of Racak. I wouldn't like to mention his details. He had
20 been kidnapped because he had a dispute over his yard with an ethnic
21 Albanian, and he reported the case at the Stimlje police station.
22 Q. So why was he kidnapped; because he reported the dispute to the
24 A. Yes. That was the only reason why he was taken away. Kidnapped
25 and taken to Lapusnik, that is. I don't know whether it is necessary for
1 me to mention the kidnapped persons who were Albanians.
2 Q. Well, you don't have to mention the names, but if you know them
4 A. I know that from the village of Petrova on the 4th of July, 1998,
5 Rexhaj Heta was kidnapped. Around the 20th of July, 1998, or the 21st,
6 his son Rexhaj Rizah was kidnapped. Musli Musliu from the village of
7 Belince was kidnapped on the 17th of July, 1998, and his son also around
8 those days, Muje Musliu, was kidnapped towards the end of July 1998.
9 Brothers from the village of Racak, Shefqet Ramadani and Hali Ramadani
10 were kidnapped. They were from the village of Racak. Shefqet was
11 kidnapped because he worked in ElektroKosmet. He actually stayed at his
12 job. Then Safet Hisenaj from the village of Petra was kidnapped. Then
13 three ethnic Albanians were kidnapped from the village of Gornje Godance.
14 As for ethnic Serbs, we know that Miladinovic Serba [phoen] was
15 kidnapped. Brothers or cousins with the last name of Krstic, then Krstic
16 Zivorad. As I said yesterday, Bakrac Vojko, Bakrac Ivan, Genov Stamen,
17 Cuk Djordje, all of them were kidnapped, and a few unidentified persons
18 who were ethnic Serbs.
19 All of these persons I mentioned were taken to the prison in
20 Lapusnik. Possibly there are a few others, but I can't recall their
22 Q. All right. You worked there for a very long time. You were very
23 familiar with the area, as we can see from this, that you can recall all
24 these names that you worked on.
25 Please take a look at the statement contained in tab 1.10. It is
1 dated the 11th of September in 1998. Does it also pertain to information
2 about the KLA in that area, in that area you took a statement?
3 A. Yes. This statement dated the 11th of September, 1998, and as far
4 as I can see, this person mentioned KLA members from the village of
5 Petrovo, municipality of Stimlje.
6 Q. All right. Let's not dwell on this too long. Then tab 1.11.
7 This is a statement dated the 13th of September, 1998. And it says here:
8 "I myself saw the following persons in the village of Petrovo with KLA
9 insignia and with automatic rifles," and then he gives the names.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As far as I can see, some 20, 22 persons in camouflage uniform or
12 in black uniform.
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. This is the 13th of September, 1998, and it says in the case of
15 one of these persons, killed: Djemsir Emini Ademaj. This is the 13th of
16 September, 1998. Is this the statement that you took, you and your
17 colleague Sparavalo?
18 A. Yes. Yes. This is the statement that I and my colleague Momcilo
19 Sparavalo took. And the interviewee mentions the names of members of the
20 KLA in camouflage uniforms with KLA insignia and in black uniforms. I can
21 say here that these are black uniforms. These are uniforms with PU signs,
22 Policia Ushtarake, and when translated into the Serbian, it means military
24 Now, in Ljuzak Mahala, that is where the headquarters of the
25 military police were in the municipality of Stimlje, and Isak Musliu
1 commanded this staff. Qerqiz was his nickname. He was appointed KLA
2 commander, sometime -- commander of the military police, that is, of the
3 PU, in the autumn of 1998.
4 Members of the KLA in black uniforms were professionally trained
5 persons. According to our information, they had been trained in Albania.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, all these statements taken by the
7 witness appear to establish that there was KLA activity in Racak. I'm
8 wondering if there is some shortcut to labouring through all of them.
9 Mr. Nice, what would you say to the Chamber admitting these
11 MR. NICE: As to the statements under tab 1, 1.1 and so on, I
12 think I've made in the past such arguments as I can make about excluding
13 hearsay documents of this type that touch issues of significance, and I'd
14 rather understood from the combination of the earlier oral decision on
15 hearing this witness and the written decision that followed it that the
16 likelihood was that you would be admitting these exhibits subject to a
17 final decision on their status or admissibility at the conclusion of
18 cross-examination, cross-examination that, as the Chamber may know, I
19 would ask to be deferred.
20 As to tab 2, different considerations arise for two reasons, and
21 I'd be grateful for an opportunity of addressing you in private session
22 for just a couple of minutes.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 38806 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 38807 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 38808 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 38809 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I was saying that the order that the
5 Chamber made in relation to this witness's evidence was that determination
6 of the admissibility of a statement will only be made after it has been
7 translated and the evidence of the witness has been concluded. So we had
8 decided to determine admissibility at the end of his testimony as a whole,
9 which doesn't preclude us from looking at a particular matter as it
10 arises, but that's the -- that's the decision of the Chamber.
11 Mr. Milosevic, you had indicated that you might want to deal with
12 the rest of the statements as a whole to shorten proceedings.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly. I want to be as
14 efficient as possible in view of the time, however, I don't know what
15 Mr. Nice is going to find objectionable.
16 You said just now that you will make a decision after the evidence
17 is concluded, and before I go into any details of any statements,
18 Mr. Robinson and gentlemen, please bear in mind the arguments that go
19 counter the request of Mr. Nice to have the cross-examination postponed.
20 I don't see a single reason to have the cross-examination of this witness
21 postponed, because Mr. Nice has the documents or has had them for full 20
22 days, the documents that this witness is testifying about. This witness
23 was their witness, and they knew about him coming to testify long in
25 I would like to remind you that I received from the opposite side
1 very large binders and would usually get a reply from Mr. Nice that I have
2 sufficient time overnight -- would hear from Mr. May that I have
3 sufficient time overnight to familiarise myself with the contents.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not dealing with that particular issue now.
5 When we -- when we get to it, we'll deal with it.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. May I continue with my
8 JUDGE KWON: Before going on, can I ask a technical question to
9 the witness.
10 While we are staying on tab 1.11, you can notice some handwritten
11 numbers at the top of the page. If you could tell us what it represents.
12 For example, we see the numbers 414. Is it -- is it what you wrote down?
13 Only in Serbian version.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 414 is not something that I
15 wrote down. I'm not familiar with that, because the files and their
16 copies were taken to the Ministry of the Interior in Belgrade. Therefore,
17 I don't know.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, if I may be of assistance.
19 I will look for the document and so on, because I think these documents
20 A/6-25 and so on, I think that these are the numbers assigned in the
21 archives of the Ministry of the Interior, because in the receipt signed by
22 my associates upon receiving certain documents from them at the Ministry
23 of the Interior, identical numbers are indicated, A/6 and so on. Similar
24 numbers can be found in those receipts. This involves over 1.000 of
25 documents which they received one year after they put in a request.
1 JUDGE KWON: It seems to me that all the documents in tab 2 start
2 with number 5, so it seemed to me that it was written for the purpose of
3 this proceeding, but I'm not sure. That can be clarified later.
4 Go on, Mr. Milosevic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Could you hold on, please.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, it may be that tab 1 could be
9 taken in general. The specific points raised by Mr. Nice relate to tab 2.
10 So take tab 1 in general, the rest of tab 1.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, yes. I found, while you
12 were conferring, this receipt, and it was signed by one of my associates,
13 attorney Momir Rajicevic [phoen], in Belgrade, and he says, "I hereby
14 confirm that on the 17th of March, 2005, at 12.00 in the offices of the
15 MUP of Serbia re: The request of the 18th of January, 2004 -" that is 14
16 months prior to that - "by lawyer Ognjanovic with his power of attorney
17 that I selected documents from a file in copies A/5," then the number,
18 then 25/another number. And you can place this on the ELMO if you like.
19 And it reminded me of the numbers that were handwritten on these
20 documents, the first part, the second part. So this is a receipt that I
21 have saved to see how long is necessary for any type of documents to be
22 received. And as you can see, we received this very recently, and you can
23 see how long it took us to get them, and it shows the numbers.
24 MR. KAY: I think there might be a slight confusion. I've been
25 aided in relation to this particular receipt. There is another receipt,
1 but the receipt referred to may refer to Stefanovic documents which are to
2 be introduced, but I mentioned this yesterday because I was asked about
3 the provenance of these documents as best as I could know. I gave the
4 best answer I could. I made some research, and they didn't come with this
5 witness. They had actually been collected by the associates to
6 Mr. Milosevic, as he's described, from official archives in Serbia, and
7 their provenance and continuity is able to be established by them through
8 that. They didn't come through the witness. He just happened to be able
9 to tie up with the documents in a convenient way, as we all know arose
10 several weeks ago.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Kay.
12 Do you still want us to have a look at that document,
13 Mr. Milosevic?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you can just take a look at
15 it, just one second, a brief glance - it's not going to take up too much
16 time - and you can see the case numbers.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, we have seen it, for what it is
18 worth, yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I have the receipt back, please.
20 Thank you.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You heard, Mr. Jasovic, the suggestion made by Mr. Robinson. In
23 tab 1 or, rather, from tab 1 to 57, you have the statements taken from
24 citizens of Albanian ethnicity. Did you have an opportunity of checking,
25 since these documents were -- came from the Ministry of the Interior, did
1 you have an opportunity of checking whether in all these documents, from 1
2 to 57, whether they're all authentic documents, that is to say documents
3 that you compiled together with your colleague taking statements in your
4 capacity of an official employee from the individuals mentioned in them,
5 in the documents?
6 A. Yes, that's true. I can confirm the authenticity of all these
7 documents. And as I said yesterday, I said this clearly: They are
8 documents on the basis of the interviews with Albanians who came to us of
9 their own free will to report events and cases and also pass information
10 of Albanians who were taken into custody. And with respect to what
11 Mr. Nice said a moment ago, the register of the informers.
12 Q. We haven't come to that yet. That's tab 2. We'll deal with that
13 later on in due course, tab 2. I was referring to the first tab, tab 1.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, you referred to tab 57, but the
15 Chamber was handed over a document with a note which says to be added as
16 tab 1.58, but index of your binder does not say about this tab, so could
17 you clarify that, please.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll be happy to clarify that
19 straight away, Mr. Kwon. You know full well that this witness came to
20 testify here at the kind initiative of Mr. Nice. I did not have any
21 information about his stay here, so the time was very brief, that is to
22 say the time I had, and in the meantime my associates established that
23 this witness knows about certain events from the Kacanik municipality. We
24 did not have the time to submit all the documents for translation, all the
25 documents that I have in my possession, but we did translate one statement
1 which does not relate to the Racak area but relates precisely to the
2 Kacanik area, and that's the 1.58 document. And at the end of my
3 examination-in-chief, I'll be asking the witness several questions with
4 respect to that statement, because it is directly linked to a count in the
5 indictment that's speaks about Kotlina and a killing there, and the
6 qualification here is of innocent citizens, the killing of innocent
7 Albanians in the places mentioned where these killings allegedly took
8 place. So I'll be addressing that in due course.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm happy to see you acknowledge
10 the kind initiative of the Prosecutor. His conduct was consistent with
11 the highest standards of the Bar.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since we've exchanged compliments,
13 may we continue?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you may.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Jasovic, all these statements, by virtue of their form and
17 contents, are they all official documents of the police force of the
18 Republic of Serbia?
19 A. Yes, they are official documents of the police of the Republic of
20 Serbia because all the statements were taken pursuant to the law on
21 criminal proceedings and their provisions for written documents. And I
22 can confirm the authenticity of each of these documents, especially since
23 they were signed by the interviewee and myself.
24 Q. You and your colleague, you mean.
25 A. Yes, myself and one of my colleagues, that's right.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, I would like to tender
2 into evidence tab 1, which is documents 1 to 57 inclusive, that is to say
3 statements taken by the authorised persons and relate to the testimony of
4 Mr. Jasovic or, rather, the events and activities of the KLA in the Racak
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, as indicated in our order, what
7 we'll do now is we'll note your application, and we'll make a ruling on
8 the admission at the conclusion of the witness's testimony.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Jasovic --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: And the same thing will apply for the document
13 that you submitted with the 30 names to which ten have been added by the
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't understand it that Mr. Nice
16 was adding names. What I understood was that he provided references for
17 those names from other documents, because 30 were identified, 30 KLA
18 members have been identified.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes. That's correct, yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Now, please, Mr. Jasovic, look at tab 2 where you will find the
23 Official Notes. So we're not dealing with statements any more, statements
24 of the interviewees, but official notes and information. Some documents
25 are titled Official Note, others are titled Information or Report.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But before I go on to ask my
2 questions, I'd just like to draw your attention, Mr. Robinson, to a
3 question that was raised with respect to the source of information. The
4 source was given by the witness in closed session, and it referred to a
5 specific document, a concrete document, in this set of documents under tab
6 2, because we have tabs 2.1 to 2.30 inclusive, and he referred to one
7 specific document. The witness did not say at any point that he compiled
8 all these Official Notes and reports on the basis of just one informer.
9 He said -- what he said was when he referred to one or we were discussing
10 one of the documents in this set within tab 2. I think it was document
11 2.23, but we can check that out in the transcript.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Now, Mr. Jasovic, I'd like to ask you this: These are all
14 Official Notes and reports, as we have seen. Now, how do you come by
15 these Official Notes and reports? What do they in fact represent? What
16 are they?
17 A. Official Notes and reports are compiled after we conduct the
18 interviews with the informers or collaborators or through friendly
19 contacts; anyway, on the basis of the interviews. After the interviews we
20 compile Official Notes and reports of this kind.
21 And here we have Official Notes and reports not compiled on the
22 basis of one registered informer but they are Official Notes and reports
23 which relate to information learnt through friendly contacts as well.
24 And I'd like to add, and Mr. Nice said something like that a
25 moment ago, that a registered informer did not die, he was killed, in
1 fact, in August 1998 by a KLA member, by KLA members.
2 Q. Very well. Now, let's start at the beginning. First things
4 Mr. Jasovic, tab 2.1 is an Official Note which was compiled on the
5 9th of July, 1998, and it says, "Source: A friendly contact from the
6 Siptar ethnic minority." And then it says: "On the 7th of July, 1998, we
7 learned the following from a friendly contact from the Siptar ethnic
8 minority:" And then it goes on to list the information and data or,
9 actually, the things you learned.
10 Now, what does it mean when you say "friendly contact from the
11 Albanian minority"? Is that a personal friend or does it mean something
13 A. Friends are one thing, friendly contact is another. When we say
14 "friendly contact," we mean people that we knew earlier on and who were
15 willing to give the information voluntarily, of their own free will. And
16 in this case it was a friendly contact, as the term goes, from somebody
17 from the Stimlje municipality. The village is Gornje Godance and he is a
18 registered informer giving us information relating to the village of
19 Gornje Godance and the kidnapping of Shyqeri Zymberi and the other two
21 Q. All right. I can see here on the 27th of June, 1998, Ademi Agim
22 and Vesel Ahmeti and Shyqeri Zymberi were kidnapped and taken away in an
23 unknown direction and their legally possessed firearms were seized from
24 them. So they had permits to -- for the possession of firearms. And then
25 it goes on to say: "He also took part in terrorist operations," et
1 cetera, et cetera. So what this is about is the kidnapping of Albanians
2 by the KLA; is that right? Is that the contents of that Official Note?
3 A. Yes. This was the case of kidnapped Albanians who were kidnapped
4 from their family homes on the 27th of June, 1998, after midnight.
5 Q. You as a police inspector, would you have any reason to doubt the
6 truthfulness of the information given to you by your friendly contact
7 about the kidnapping of these Albanians by the KLA?
8 A. Mr. President, I'm a professional policeman. I have been working
9 for -- as a policeman for about 30 years, and after so much time and
10 experience, I don't for one minute doubt the information provided to me by
11 my friendly contact, by this particular friendly contact.
12 Q. Here, for example, mention is made of, and that is to be found in
13 the last paragraph on this first page, Shukri Buja, father Gani, he is one
14 of the commanders of the KLA in the Lipjan municipality and collaborates
15 with terrorists from Zborce. So that is a piece of information which has
16 been checked out through many other pieces of information, and he
17 testified here.
18 A. Yes, that is correct, because Shukri Buja, and his pseudonym was
19 Gazetari Sokoli, later on was the commander of the 161st Brigade of the
20 operative zone for the Urosevac area. And at the same time this friendly
21 contact, the Albanian who provided me with this piece of information, I
22 can say this, that Gornje Godance from the village of Jajce, where Shukri
23 Buja resides, is barely a kilometre away.
24 Q. All right, very well. So those are the facts that were not
25 contested here as far as he himself was concerned, whereas all the other
1 pieces of information can be checked out.
2 Now, is it clear here that you received this information on the
3 7th of July, 1998?
4 A. Yes. The Official Note was written on the 9th of July, 1998, but
5 we received the information on the 7th of July, 1998.
6 Q. This Official Note is fairly precise and gives a lot of
7 information, a lot of facts. Were you able, through other pieces of
8 information, to convince yourself and to check out this information as
9 being correct?
10 A. Yes, we checked this out through other sources of information and
11 other statements. We checked out the information, and the information is
12 indeed correct.
13 Q. Very well, thank you. Now, who was this Official Note addressed
15 A. This Official Note was addressed to and is addressed to the head
16 of the Secretariat of the Interior, specifically the SUP Urosevac chief,
17 for analysis and systematisation.
18 Q. Right. So you compile an Official Note, and you hand it over to
19 your superior; is that right?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. And then it follows the MUP channels for analysis and further
22 processing; is that right?
23 A. It's like this: In addition to the SUP chief, a copy of the
24 Official Note is sent to the state security department in Urosevac and
25 also to the staff for Kosovo and Metohija in Pristina. As I say, the Main
1 Staff, the main headquarters gets sent the more interesting official
3 Q. Would you now compare this kind of Official Note that you -- we
4 find in tab 2, and it was taken at the beginning of July 1998, and it
5 speaks about a large number of activities on the part of the members of
6 the KLA and even information about who took part in a terrorist action in
7 Crnoljevo, et cetera. So it uncovers and establishes everything linked to
8 the crimes committed by the terrorist organisation. Was that the purpose
9 of this piece of information, this Official Note?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, the next document will be found in tab 2.3 --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Before moving on to that, Mr. Jasovic, are you able
13 to give us the name of the source from whom you got the information for
14 the report tab 2.1?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, but in closed session.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll go into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 38822 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Please look at the next document in tab 2.2. As opposed to 2.1
5 where it says "friendly contact from the Siptar ethnic minority," here it
6 says: "On the basis of operative information and conducted interviews, we
7 have obtained information that snipers are located in suitable spots in
8 the village of Crnoljevo on the mountain above the mosque and the road
9 intersection, from which they are opening fire on the police and army. We
10 consider it essential that police and commanding officers be informed
11 about this."
12 Have you found the reference?
13 A. No, I didn't hear the tab number.
14 Q. The next one; 2.2.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: 2.2, yes.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. 2.2. 2.1 was the previous one. Have you found 2.2?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Jasovic, please look at this carefully. In 2.1 there was a
20 friendly contact, and in 2.2 it says: "On the basis of operative
21 information and conducted interviews ..." Could you please explain the
22 difference in terms of these sources of information.
23 A. This information was probably compiled when we could not take a
24 statement because the said person was working all the time. I had a
25 notebook where I wrote down the persons who were providing information.
1 Q. All right. Now let us deal with what it says here. This is a very
2 brief piece of information in tab 2.2. So we've clarified how you
3 obtained this.
4 And now it says: "The place where the snipers are located is on
5 the left side of the road in the direction of Crnoljevo village.
6 "Crnoljevo-Petrastica is a macadam road. Towards Petrastica
7 village, in trenches, there are members of the so-called KLA armed with
8 hand-held rocket launchers --" I'm reading it out as it is -- "among other
9 weapons, and that is where the fiercest resistance to the police and army
10 is expected. On the above road from the first bend to Petrastica village
11 trenches have been dug on both sides in three parallel rows every 10 to 15
12 metres from the road."
13 And then it is mentioned that also from above Belince village to
14 Crnoljevo village there are trenches on both sides of the road in suitable
15 places in the forest at around one kilometre from the main road.
16 Now, since the truthfulness of all this information is being
17 questioned all the time, tell us, Mr. Jasovic, what kind of interest could
18 the police have to establish all of this and to have all of this proven to
19 be incorrect?
20 A. You see, in addition to this information, we have a large number
21 of statements that indicate the same information, that these bunkers,
22 trenches, communication trenches were on the left- and right-hand side of
23 the village of Belince, that is the municipality of Stimlje, and they went
24 all the way to Crnoljevo. Trenches, communication trenches and bunkers
25 from the village of Crnoljevo to the village of Petrastica. On several
1 spots there were strong fortifications with KLA members who were armed
2 with long-barrelled and short-barrelled weapons. This information is true
3 and verifiable.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, last time I drew your
5 attention to this: What kind of interest would the police have to correct
6 misinformation about the activities of the terrorists? And you said that
7 police do that kind of thing in many countries.
8 If you read all this information, you will see that the police was
9 compiling this information in order to find the perpetrators of the
10 terrorist attacks, of the crimes, and that is indicated by the number of
11 persons who were ultimately arrested and also the number of persons who
12 were killed in clashes with the police.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, continue with your examination
14 after that comment.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Tell me, now, in tab 2.3, it says here: " ... through our
18 acquaintance of Siptar nationality from the village of Petrovo ..." What
19 kind of a contact is this now, an acquaintance contact? What does that
21 A. A person who is not a friend but an acquaintance whom I would see.
22 It's not that I would really meet up with this person. I would not
23 socialise with that kind of person. So it is a person I would know from
24 -- by sight.
25 Q. Tell me --
1 A. Just a moment, please. I don't know whether it's in my notebook,
2 but, yes, in closed session I can give you the name and surname of this
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, if you are interested in
5 this, you can hear it.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just have a look here.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's go into private session.
8 MR. NICE: And, Your Honours, also for 2.2, unless I've missed it,
9 I don't think that's been dealt with.
10 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take a break now for 20 minutes. We are
11 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Please continue.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Jasovic, we're dealing with document 2.3 now. You've
16 explained this acquaintance, that type of contact. This is the 2nd of
17 August, 1998. And it is the area of the villages of Rance, Stimlje, from
18 where it was learned where the police and army were shot at from the road
19 near the village of Crnoljevo. It is mentioned that the terrorist gang in
20 the village of Jezerce, Urosevac, was located in Hiseni Smajl's house and
21 in the Ugzmajli family home. And finally, that a certain Hisenaj Halim
22 from the village of Petrovo was seen in the village of Rance wearing a
23 uniform of the so-called KLA and carrying an automatic rifle. According
24 to the information received, he is now in the village of Petrovo. Does
25 this information pertain to the KLA forces that were operating in the
1 environs of Rance?
2 A. Yes. The village of Petrovo, municipality of Stimlje, is the
3 place that this person was from and he knew the members of the KLA in the
4 village of Petrovo and in the surrounding villages. As for this
5 information about the terrorist gang in the village of Jezerce, he knew
6 about that because the KLA headquarters were in the village of Jezerce,
7 municipality of Urosevac, and later on, since the village of Jezerce is in
8 a mountainous area and quite inaccessible, the KLA headquarters were
9 transferred to Isuf Avdyli's house in the village of Malopoljce, and this
10 village is about a kilometre or a kilometre and a half away from the
11 village of Petrovo.
12 Q. All right. You explained --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I just want to ask the witness a
14 question. It doesn't really relate to your testimony.
15 In the first line of the Official Note in the English, after
16 "Siptar" we have "derogatory for Albanians." Is that written by the
17 witness or by the translator? By the translator.
18 Let me just have it confirmed. Did you write in this "derogatory
19 for Albanians" in brackets in the first --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. No, sir.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. It was probably written in by the
22 translators. Thanks.
23 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, in this note in
25 Serbian, it says: "From an acquaintance contact of Siptar ethnicity from
1 the village of Petrovo." There is no such thing as "derogatory term."
2 This is probably a note made by the translator and that is why it is in
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. All right. Number 4, that is to say 2.4. This is a very
6 interesting note, Official Note. I'm going to quote from it. It speaks
7 of abducted Albanians primarily, but at the very outset it says that on
8 the 1st of August, 1998, a certain person whose name and surname are
9 there, including his father's name and his date of birth, came to the
10 Urosevac SUP of his own accord and reported the following. He is from a
11 certain village in the municipality of Stimlje, and this is what he
13 Now I would like to draw your attention to what is said here, that
14 at a particular point in time he was abducted and taken in an unknown
15 direction by five terrorists who were dressed in green camouflage uniforms
16 with KLA insignia and armed with automatic rifles. That same night, in
17 Petrovo village, the terrorists also kidnapped Bajrush Rexhaj, a former
18 policeman in the Urosevac SUP. Rexhaj Rizah and Rexhaj -- the terrorists
19 put bags over the heads of Rizah Rexhaj and Bajrush Rexhaj, and they were
20 taken in a white jeep via the villages of Rance and Petrastica to a place
21 he later learned was called Lapusnik. So again we're going back to the
22 prison in Lapusnik.
23 A few lines down, it says, after being brought to Lapusnik,
24 according to what this person said, this person who stated all of this to
25 you, he was, according to his account, put in a barn in which besides him
1 there were another 11 people. He said, again further down, there were
2 another two or three barns in which the kidnapped persons were being held.
3 Then, again, many persons are mentioned who have Albanian names and
4 surnames and who had been abducted.
5 Did you have more detailed information about persons who were
6 abducted and detained in Lapusnik? You mentioned it a few moments ago.
7 Did you have any information as to what happened to them?
8 A. As for the majority of the persons abducted and taken to the
9 prison of Lapusnik, their fate is still unknown. However, we do have some
10 information that they had been killed at Velika Stena, the locality of
11 Velika Stena, in the municipality of Glogovac above the village of
13 We also have information that when they were taken to be executed
14 on Velika Stena, a few of them managed to escape. Specifically, I know
15 that Adem Ramadani, Shefqet Ramadani from the village of Gornje Godance in
16 the municipality of Stimlje, managed to escape, as well as Musliu from the
17 village of Belince, municipality of Stimlje, Milaim Kamberi from the
18 village of --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic -- Mr. Milosevic, what are you
20 seeking to establish by adducing evidence of this kind?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I wish to establish
22 that this corresponds to the reports that were presented here when the
23 head of the European Monitors testified here, Hartwig, that terrorists
24 were conducting terror in the Albanian villages, that they were abducting
25 and killing persons who were ethnic Albanians in order to discipline them.
1 He spoke about that in detail. And it could be seen in the reports of his
2 regional centres that family members of Albanians who were victims came
3 directly to the European Monitors to report that. This completely
4 corresponds to that information that he spoke of, except that he talked
5 about the information that was obtained later.
6 Here we can see that this information was provided already in
7 August 1998. That is to say, a broad spectrum --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I want you to do is to fit it into the
9 indictment. I mean, to what does it respond? What is your case in
10 relation to this kind of evidence?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is in direct relationship with
12 that, Mr. Robinson, because you know well that the indictment constantly
13 speaks of some unarmed civilians who perished at the hands of the Serb
14 forces, whereas here we can see in many of these statements that there
15 were armed terrorists there, as well as a large number of Albanians who
16 were victims of the KLA, which means that the unarmed Albanians were
17 killed by the KLA, whereas the police mostly killed armed terrorists. All
18 of this can be seen in the documents that we're discussing right now.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're saying that where the indictment alleges
20 that unarmed civilians were killed by the Serbs, your case is that they
21 were killed by the KLA.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I claim that the KLA members
23 who were killed were all terrorists and that among the Albanians who were
24 killed there are a large number of those who were killed by the KLA. So
25 I'm claiming both of these things.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. For example, Mr. Jasovic, on page 3 of this statement, the
4 interviewee, whose name I'm not going to read out, explains that all of
5 the persons from his group were shot to death. You can see that in the
6 penultimate paragraph, last line of this Official Note compiled based on
7 what he stated. It says verbatim: "He explained --"
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, 2.4 relates to August 1998.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, in August of 1998.
10 However, that doesn't mean that the persons who were killed of -- in
11 August of 1998 are not attributed to our police or to our army or to some
12 of our forces, both those who were imprisoned and those who were shot to
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, is there a particular paragraph in the
15 indictment that makes that allegation?
16 MR. NICE: I'm not sure at the moment.
17 MR. KAY: Joint criminal enterprise is said to be from or before
18 October 1998. It leaves open the opportunity for expression before
19 October 1998. It has not been definitely cut off by the Prosecution from
20 a particular point in time.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, I didn't hear that.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I explain something else
24 regarding your question, Mr. Robinson?
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you look at paragraph 66, you
2 will see there a pattern, and the pattern is such that the Serb forces
3 always after the shelling -- this begins way back with Racak, and then
4 under (B) we've Bela Crkva, and then under (C) we have Mala Krusa, and
5 under (D) we have Suva Reka, and so on. So this is a pattern whereby the
6 Serb forces allegedly attacked a village and killed some civilians.
7 In all of the counts of this indictment, counts for murder, it is
8 claimed that the Serb forces attacked some villages and killed some
9 civilians. Then in schedules we have lists from A to -- or, rather, in
10 subparagraphs we have lists of those who were killed. The pattern is
11 completely clear, and it will emerge both through testimonies and through
12 documents namely that wherever the KLA members buried their dead ones, and
13 based on the list you can see that this involves only men, they always
14 told the story about being surrounded and killed by the Serb forces. You
15 will not find a single example of them being killed in combat, no. They
16 always claim that this involves some unarmed civilians, which is
17 absolutely untrue. Not a single policeman killed anyone except for
18 individual cases for which they were legally persecuted. So this entire
19 pattern is a false one.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "prosecuted," not
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Milosevic --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I said, Mr. Milosevic, move through the
1 rest of the tabs as quickly as possible. I'm getting quite concerned,
2 though, Mr. Milosevic, about how you allocate your time in your defence as
3 a whole, because you're now beyond a third of the time allocated to you,
4 and you're still on Kosovo.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Which says just what an unrealistic
6 allocation of time you gave me here, and this is in contradiction with
7 your request that we need to cover all of the exhibits in order for them
8 to be admitted.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I said go ahead, Mr. Milosevic.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, if you're doing this because you
11 think you need to cover them all to have them admitted, then there is a
12 misunderstanding. It may be that the Prosecutor will try to demonstrate
13 that these documents are not authentic, or he may not, but it's enough for
14 your purposes at the moment for you to have confirmation from the witness
15 that they are, as far as he's concerned, authentic, and then if there are
16 particular issues raised in cross-examination, you would be able to deal
17 with these particular issues later.
18 But at the moment, I can indicate quite apart from being concerned
19 about the time you're taking to go through this, I can also indicate that
20 to hear what was happening in July and August 1998 doesn't assist me
21 greatly in the decision that's to be made about paragraph 66, which is all
22 related to between January and June 1999.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, it is hard to pull out a
24 period of time and disregard everything that preceded it. However, we
25 will definitely cover the 1999 as well. I believe that 1998 was quite as
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 relevant. But if you say so, Mr. Bonomy, that it will be sufficient now
2 just to establish that these documents are authentic, then in that case I
3 will now turn to just a few more things.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Please take a look at tab 15, please. Fifteen, Mr. Jasovic. The
6 information contained here, does it indicate that you acquired information
7 about the training of special units of the KLA in Switzerland?
8 Have you found tab 15, 2.15?
9 A. Yes. Yes. I've found the information dated the 14th of November,
11 Q. Yes. So November 1998, the Verification Mission is already there,
12 and they are preparing for the war. Is it stated here in this report, in
13 this second paragraph, that the commander and the able-bodied KLA members
14 had gone to Switzerland for talks and special training followed by the
15 forming of the special units of the so-called KLA in order to carry out
16 sabotage and terrorist operations in Kosmet? And then it says that Isak
17 Musliu, known as Qerqiz, from the village of Racak, is also in
18 Switzerland. Is that the person who was mentioned as commander in several
19 of your Official Notes and statements?
20 A. Yes, that's correct. This is indeed Isak Musliu, commander first
21 of the 121st Brigade and their staff in the village of Rance and then
22 commander of the military police whose headquarters was in Ljuzak Mahala,
23 above the village of Petrovo, Stimlje municipality.
24 Now, as for this report, I can tell you that an ethnic Albanian
25 who was temporarily working in Switzerland saw them in uniforms with KLA
2 Q. Very well. At the end of this paragraph it says, "Afet Bilalli
3 was observed three days ago with three other uniformed KLA members in a
4 red Lada Niva near the bridge on Baljevic Mahala on the
5 Stimlje-Racak-Petrovo road in the vicinity of the village of Racak."
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Therefore, Mr. Bonomy, you can see,
7 this is precisely two months before the conflict between the police and
8 the terrorists in Racak, and I assume that it is quite relevant in order
9 to establish that there indeed was a terrorist group in Racak.
10 And then it goes to say that, "According to the operative contact,
11 members of Siptar ethnic minority, that is individuals between 18 and 30
12 years of age, are being recruited into the so-called KLA. In the area of
13 Stimlje municipality, even younger individuals have been observed walking
14 through the village of Racak and through the forests to the KLA staff in
15 Ljuzak Mahala."
16 And then it says in the penultimate paragraph on page 1 that,
17 "Members of the KLA, wherever they are, had hand-held rocket launchers,
18 mortars, hand grenades, and other kinds of weapons and ammunition. In
19 addition to that, they also have green coloured grenades on them."
20 Therefore, all of this information in this tab have to do with the
21 activities, with the composition, with the weaponry of terrorists --
22 terrorist groups in Petrovo, Rance, Racak in the part of Stimlje
23 municipality, which does not cover a large territory.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Jasovic, is this correct, and if anything else is referred to
1 in this report, then please tell us so, because I did not have opportunity
2 to read all of these documents.
3 A. Yes, that's correct. This report deals with this type of
4 information. Based on this report, I can see that the friendly contact
5 stated that the members of the KLA are firing on the road Stimlje-Dulje
6 and also in the villages in the vicinity of Racak.
7 Q. All right. Very well. Now, let's take a look at tab 2.10, where
8 it says, "On the 16th of September we talked to an ethnic Albanian from
9 the village of Racak, Stimlje municipality, who contacted a member of the
10 KLA and stated the following," and then it goes to say what and where, and
11 then lists a number of names.
12 A. Yes. A person of ethnic background provided information in this
13 case -- of ethnic Albanian background.
14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the question of identifying the source may
15 arise in relation to this. A few of the previous tab numbers and several
16 of those to come, it's entirely a matter of the Court if it asks the
17 questions, but if it does it may be as well to do it compendiously at a
18 later stage, or tab by tab. I'm neutral.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I think, Mr. Nice, that that's the first -- 2.15 is
20 the first one where the inquiry hasn't been made. I agree with you that
21 it would be a good idea to wait until the end.
22 MR. NICE: Yes. I've got some earlier ones. I may have missed a
23 couple; 2.8 and 2.9.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll wait until the end and do them
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: 2.8, the name is given. I have no recollection of
3 the position on 2.9. Sorry, that's --
4 MR. NICE: I think not, Your Honour. I think we start at 2.8 and
5 sequentially from there --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nice, please.
7 MR. NICE: Sequentially from 2.8 we have no answers to those
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Robinson, in order
10 to save my time, could you please instruct Mr. Nice that you can use the
11 time allocated to him in cross-examination in order to inquire about the
12 source of the information.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I think that's perfectly true.
14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, no, it isn't. With great respect, the
15 accused is taking a great deal of time. That's a matter for his choice,
16 but it's also a matter of his not being organised. He should know that if
17 this material is going to be the subject of cross-examination at some
18 stage, it's his duty to provide the material that is inevitably going to
19 be required. Now, if this witness is able to say, as he is so far, that
20 names may be provided, it might be thought by the accused that that
21 assists his cause, and it's material he's got to get before the Court,
22 because let me make it quite plain, if I'm not able to investigate named
23 providers, I shall have arguments to make about the admissibility of the
24 documents that rely upon them.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Let's get on.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Robinson, can I ask
2 a collective question of this witness with respect to tab 20 -- or,
3 rather, 2 -- tab 2 with 30 documents. It contains 30 documents. Whether
4 they're all authentic documents, can I ask him for all of them together?
5 Whether they're all either Official Notes or reports compiled by the
6 police, as you can see --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- and whether each of these
9 official documents is an authentic document of the Ministry of the
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Jasovic, is that right?
13 A. Yes. I say with full responsibility that all the documents are
14 authentic ones.
15 Q. Can we see, Mr. Jasovic, that each of these documents of yours has
16 -- at the top, it says Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of
17 Serbia, the Secretariat of the Interior Urosevac the heading, is that
18 right, and then it has the number, the official number and the year; is
19 that right? The official number in that year, whether it's 1998 or 1999.
20 And the date when the document was compiled; is that right?
21 A. Yes, that is right. The heading is Secretariat of the Interior,
22 Urosevac, then we have the date when the information was compiled as well
23 as the official number of the note or report, which is recorded in the
24 archives and books of the Secretariat of the Interior of Urosevac. And
25 the computer or, rather, the head of the --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jasovic, the interpreter is asking you to
4 repeat your answer.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say is this: We
6 have the heading of -- in the Official Note, it says Republic of Serbia,
7 Ministry of the Interior Urosevac, then the date when the information was
8 compiled, the number, the official number of the Official Note or report
9 which is recorded in the books of the Secretariat of the Interior, their
10 archives. And I also added that the person recording the documents,
11 pursuant to the head of SUP of Urosevac, was the head of the crime
12 investigation department, Nedeljkovic Branislav.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd just like to draw your attention
14 to the fact that in tab 2, we have a series of Official Notes which were
15 compiled -- to avoid going back, this is November 1998, then we have in
16 tab 2 the 19th of December, 1998; the 16th of December. That means
17 exactly one month prior to the conflict in Racak. The Official Note
18 refers to Racak itself as well, and it says, "On the 16th of December,
19 1998, operative contact in Racak informed us that in the KLA in Racak
20 village," et cetera, et cetera. So all that is immediately before the
22 Then you have the 20th of December is tab 2 -- or, rather, 2.20.
23 The date is the 20th of December, 1998.
24 So, Mr. Robinson, can I, in view of the explanations the witness
25 has given, tender all the documents from 1 to 30 inclusive of tab 2 into
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We note the application, and as we said
3 before, we'll make a decision at the end of the witness's testimony.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, perhaps you'd -- we'll just go
6 through the various tabs with the witness to see whether he can identify
7 the sources. Starting at 2.4?
8 MR. KAY: 2.8.
9 JUDGE KWON: 2.8.
10 MR. KAY: Perhaps we should be in closed session.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: In private session, please.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 38843 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 38844 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before we go back into open session,
16 I'd like to draw your attention, Mr. Robinson, to the fact that where you
17 stopped is the --
18 JUDGE KWON: We're now in open session.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, anyway, we were doing --
20 dealing with 12, tab 2.12. It says, "On the basis of information gathered
21 and acquaintances, friends, and other contacts, on the basis conducted
22 interviews and based on information," et cetera. So this is a series of
23 sources that were used in this particular tab for this Official Note to be
24 compiled, because they enumerate, gathered through intelligence,
25 acquaintances, friends and other contacts, which means many different
1 sources. And all that can be seen in the Official Note compiled by the
2 witness together with his colleague. But I understand your instructions
3 and guidelines, and I'd like to go back to my initial request to tender
4 tabs 1 to 30 inclusively into evidence. You told me that you were going
5 to, as far as I understood it, to include it in the material but that you
6 would decide after the witness's testimony has been completed whether
7 you're going to admit them or not. Have I understood you correctly?
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Right.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you as an inspector of the Secretariat of the
12 Interior in Urosevac have any knowledge about the fact that policemen,
13 workers in your secretariat with respect to all these more important
14 terrorist attacks, especially terrorist attacks which resulted in the
15 deaths of people or bodily injury of persons, or substantial material
16 damage, did they do a scene of crime investigation? Did they go on the
17 spot to investigate?
18 A. In most cases, scene of crime investigation did take place. We
19 went on location and investigated, but in certain cases where there were
20 security obstacles, we weren't able to do that.
21 Q. When you say "security," does that mean that something occurred
22 and then it was dangerous to go to the location, that that was the only
23 reason you didn't do an on-site investigation?
24 A. Yes, that's precisely it. Because if we knew that a terrorist
25 attack had taken place and that there was no scene of crime investigation,
1 this was because in the surrounding area or in the vicinity of the
2 location there was still KLA members present.
3 Q. Very well. But for the most part, in the majority of cases scene
4 of crime investigation did take place?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, were these on-site investigations attended by members of the
7 Verification Mission, the OSCE, in how many cases?
8 A. I think that the members of the Kosovo Verification Mission
9 arrived in the autumn of 1998. And for every terrorist attack, somebody
10 from our secretariat, the duty officer or the -- whoever, would inform the
11 OSCE about the event that had taken place, and in most of the cases they
12 went on the spot to the location.
13 Q. Thank you. Now tell me this: In addition to events of that kind,
14 that is to say when on-site investigations were conducted, let's leave
15 that to one side for the time being, were members of the Verification
16 Mission invited to attend the planned activities of the members of your
17 Secretariat of the Interior to counteract terrorism, what you did to
18 counteract terrorism?
19 A. Yes, as far as I know, yes.
20 Q. And do you know if the members of the Kosovo Verification Mission,
21 whether they were informed about the police operation in Racak and did
22 they attend? Were they there?
23 A. Linked to the events in Racak, I learnt on the 15th of January
24 that the members of the OSCE were informed of the event.
25 Q. Did you learn whether they had attended?
1 A. They did attend. They were on the spot.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Jasovic, in addition to the information about
3 Racak, in 1998 and 1999 you managed to gather a series of other
4 information pertaining to the activities of the terrorist bands, KLA bands
5 and gangs?
6 A. Yes, that's true.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: If you're moving away from Racak, may I ask a
8 question before you do.
9 Mr. Jasovic, who was the person in command of the MUP group which
10 was involved in the incident in Racak?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the person in command of
12 the MUP group that went to the site?
13 JUDGE BONOMY: You say that the deaths -- you've told us much
14 earlier in your evidence the deaths were the result of conflict, a combat
15 operation. Who was the leader of the MUP who were involved in that combat
16 operation? That's on the 15th of January.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In relation to that, I can say that
18 I may make a mistake in terms of names. It is probably high-ranking
19 officers that know more about this, specifically Bogoljub Janicevic, the
20 then-head of the SUP secretariat in Urosevac, because I primarily did
21 office work as a crime policeman, and I conducted interviews with persons.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well, if that's all the assistance you can
23 give. Thank you.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. All right. You've probably forgotten what I asked you. I asked
1 you, Mr. Jasovic, in addition to the information about Racak, in 1998 and
2 1999 you compiled significant amounts of information about activities of
3 the terrorists of the KLA.
4 A. Yes, that is correct. In addition to information pertaining to
5 the KLA headquarters in the village of Racak, we have, and I can safely
6 put it that way, vast information about other areas; Petrastica, Jezerce,
7 the village of Malopoljce, and other villages where KLA headquarters were
8 established. As I've already said, the first headquarters were
9 established in the village of Rance, and then there were substaffs in the
10 surrounding villages that were established, and then the brigade of the
11 operative Nerodimlje zone of the KLA, commanded by Shukri Buja, then this
12 staff was located in Jezerce, then in Malopoljce a staff of the Policia
13 Ushtarake was established, of the military police. And then we heard that
14 a women's staff, commanded by Nasmit Rushani [phoen] from Stana Mahala,
15 near the village of Petrovo.
16 We also have information for all villages. We have lots of
17 information related to KLA activities in Stimlje and in Urosevac.
18 As for Kacanik, I can say, I think, because I haven't got the
19 documents here in front of me - as I said, I came in connection with a
20 different trial - sometime in the autumn of 1998, the 162nd Brigade, Agim
21 Bajrami, was established in the area of Kacanik. The main headquarters
22 were in the village of Ivaja, municipality of Kacanik. Camil Egazi
23 [phoen], known as Bali, was the commander.
24 Q. All right, I'll just put a few questions to you in relation to
25 Kacanik, but before that, what is this that is contained in tab 3,
1 Mr. Jasovic? In tab 3 you have a form, as you can see. It says that this
2 is the Urosevac SUP, and there is a number there, "Record of receipt of
3 criminal report." What is this all about? I see that there is the person
4 submitting it, the submitter, that is?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And also who was present. Authorised officially. It is you and
7 Sparavalo. As for the head of the SUP, he did not sign it but his deputy
8 did, I assume, on his behalf. What is this about, but could you explain
9 it very briefly?
10 A. I will explain very briefly that an ethnic Albanian, on the 27th
11 of December, 1998, reported a case at his own initiative that on the said
12 day his house had been surrounded by a group of, I think, five or six
13 members of the KLA.
14 Q. But you have it there. Please have a look at tab 3. You have it
15 right there. This person who submitted the criminal report, can his name
16 not be read out too?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. All right, all right. I'm just asking. Tell us very briefly,
20 A. On that location, KLA Albanian terrorists seized something from
21 his house. I know it was hunting weapons.
22 Q. All right, all right. This is a criminal report that you
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Because here it says, "Authorised official, Dragan Jasovic," and
1 then there are other signatures. What about this person who signed this
2 here as a person who was present? Who is that?
3 A. I think that that is the brother or the father of the said person.
4 Q. All right. The injured party, his brother or father, and then you
5 as the authorised official, and it was also signed by the deputy head of
6 the secretariat?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That is one of the reports that was received at your secretariat.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, could this please be
10 admitted into evidence? This is also an official document.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, on the same terms. And we have passed the
12 time for the adjournment.
13 Mr. Jasovic, you must have told us, can you remind me, where do
14 you live now?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I live [Realtime transcript read in
16 error "believe"] In Kragujevac. I reside in Kragujevac, but Urosevac is
17 basically my place of permanent residence. As a displaced person, I live
18 in Kragujevac, since the 12th of June, 1999.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, there must be a
20 mistake. In the transcript it says that the witness says that he believes
21 in Kragujevac.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That should be "I live." You can only
23 believe if you live.
24 Well, we'll adjourn now until tomorrow morning.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of
2 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.