Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 40647

1 Wednesday, 8 June 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.55 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are starting late because there was no power

7 in the courtroom. We'll sit until 11.35, take a 30-minute break, and then

8 resume at 12.05 to 1.45.

9 Mr. Nice, I am to say that your motion for a voir dire is denied,

10 and the Chamber will issue a written decision tomorrow.

11 MR. NICE: Thank you.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone be turned towards the

18 accused, please.

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, could you turn your microphone towards

20 yourself.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

22 Q. [Interpretation] General, we left off discussing your agenda, and

23 we were dealing with page 846 -- 446, the last digits.

24 A. I haven't got my agenda, so could you please provide me with a

25 copy. Thank you.

Page 40648

1 Q. I understood it that you had it yesterday.

2 A. It was here yesterday, but I don't see it here today.

3 JUDGE KWON: Binder 17.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you just remind me of the

5 page.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. 446.

8 A. Yes, I have that page.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: And then we have to find it in English.

10 JUDGE KWON: 100.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's page 100 in English.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. We dealt with the question of sanitisation, "asanacija," where it

14 says that each case must be solved and we must know the truth and the

15 clearing up of the terrain. Now, what does it say under the fifth

16 asterisk?

17 A. "Legal handling with individuals and property left behind," and in

18 brackets, probably "(vehicles.)" "Lawful treatment," it says.

19 Q. And what does it say next?

20 A. Well, we read this out and there was a mistake in the translation

21 at one point. It says: "Remove traces of violence against property/SUZ,"

22 which means the Civil Defence staffs.

23 Q. Is that the job of the SCZ [as interpreted], to remove traces of

24 debris, et cetera, to clear the area?

25 A. Yes, that could be their task within the frameworks of clearing up

Page 40649

1 the terrain and clearing up the roads, the communication lines, to ensure

2 free passage and secure passage.

3 Q. On the following page, in line 1, would you read what it says

4 there.

5 A. I have a blotch on the page there where the first word is.

6 There's a little hole there punched in.

7 Q. It says "morale" there.

8 A. Yes. "And honour." If the first word is moral or morale, then it

9 says: "Morale and honour of the Serbian policemen." And then in

10 brackets: "(Responsibility of chiefs, superiors)."

11 Q. So what is the insistence here? How do you explain that note?

12 A. Well, that's logical from what I quoted. Insistence is made on

13 moral behaviour and honour of the police force and it is also insisted

14 that it is the superiors who are responsible to see that that is carried

15 out.

16 Q. And then in line 2 it says that "criminal offences perpetrated by

17 the police," and then in brackets it says "(Podujevo)." Is that what it

18 says?

19 A. Yes. "Criminal offences perpetrated by the police (Podujevo)

20 - violence towards civilians." Yes. We're quite obviously dealing with

21 the killing that took place in Podujevo, and we've discussed that several

22 times now.

23 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, under number 2 --

24 A. Of course, it doesn't mean that the police should do this. It is

25 a negative example of what can happen.

Page 40650

1 Q. Under number 2, what does it say?

2 A. Under number 2, it says: "Crime prevention and the prevention of

3 violence and anarchy," and then it says: "Legality."

4 Q. It says "Legality" in the next line, doesn't it? The next line

5 down.

6 A. Yes, the next line down but that same sentence, if I understand

7 that correctly.

8 Q. What does it say under that? Finding what?

9 A. "Finding the perpetrators of murders, looting, rapes."

10 Q. And then?

11 A. "Particularly members of the police." And what is meant there is

12 if the police are perpetrators.

13 Q. And what does it say under that?

14 A. "Detention."

15 Q. Now, does this refer to detention for all those who have

16 perpetrated crimes, including the police?

17 A. Yes. Quite obviously that is what that means.

18 Q. Can you explain to us what it says towards the end of point 2,

19 where it says: "Responsibility for civil conflict must not fall on the

20 police." What's that about?

21 A. That means that the police must take all necessary measures to

22 prevent any conflicts between the citizens, because the police, in

23 conformity with the law, is responsibility for law and order, the freedom

24 of movement, and so on and so forth. So this is emphasised. The role of

25 the police is emphasised in preventing any civil unrest and any other

Page 40651

1 problems for which the police is in charge and for which it is

2 responsible.

3 Q. All right. Now, turn over the page and we'll just look at a few

4 of the notes you have there on the next page, on the next piece of paper.

5 And it is point 4: "Organisational matters."

6 A. "Organisational matters," in the plural.

7 Q. Yes, organisational matters. That's right. Does it say here:

8 "All units subordinated to the chief -- the SUP chiefs"? Is that what it

9 says?

10 A. Yes, that's what it says.

11 Q. And is that in keeping with the explanation you gave as to how the

12 units work; that is to say that the chiefs of the Secretariat of the

13 Interior are the individuals to whom the units are subordinated?

14 A. Yes, that is in conformity with the explanations I gave earlier on

15 and the system of leading the police, managing the police, which remain

16 the same, essentially wasn't changed.

17 Q. Now, what does it say, this "OPT under particular control"? What

18 does that refer to?

19 A. It is OPG.

20 Q. Very well, OPG.

21 A. They are operative police groups, OPG, and they should be placed

22 under special control here, as it says, or particular control, as it says

23 here, from the secretariat level.

24 Q. And what do we have in brackets there?

25 A. I assume that is "Djakovica." Probably we had some complaints

Page 40652

1 coming from that region or, rather, from the SUP of Djakovica.

2 Q. And then what does it say in the next line, the next note?

3 A. In the next note, it says: "Disciplinary proceedings as per

4 decree." So there was a separate wartime degree which related to

5 disciplinary proceedings, or procedure, and that question was regulated by

6 decree under a different name, a different title, I can't remember.

7 Q. Yes. But insistence is made that the decree is acted upon when it

8 comes to disciplinary proceedings.

9 A. Yes, that's right. And there were some extended competencies for

10 the leaders with respect to the disciplinary accountability of policemen.

11 Q. Very well. Let's skip the next part where it says control

12 vehicles, et cetera. That's not relevant here. But what does it say

13 next, after that? From your what?

14 A. It says: "From your PJP organise super supervisory organs for

15 legality in procedure."

16 Yesterday, in response to a question, I think I said something

17 about that, when the platoon was mentioned. A platoon was mentioned

18 yesterday, and at one point in time we insisted that apart from the

19 leaders and chiefs who in regular procedure are duty-bound to control

20 legality, here we insisted upon the fact that in each of the PJPs there

21 should be a super supervisory body to effect additional control over the

22 legality and police procedure.

23 Q. That means that in the unit, does it not, that this high-level

24 control was organised to see that legality was implemented and the chiefs

25 in question were duty-bound to see that the police worked according to the

Page 40653

1 proper rules and the whole hierarchy, in fact?

2 MR. NICE: I really must -- I'm not going to bother to protest. I

3 must observe that this was an exhibit produced by the accused. He took

4 the witness to a very limited number of entries in examination-in-chief,

5 and although I could have raised all sorts of points if I had unlimited

6 time, I took him to only a limited number of points in cross-examination,

7 and we're now being taken through the document for an interpretation that

8 I don't necessarily accept, and that's going to have to be the subject of

9 argument in due course on the basis of matters that were only ever

10 explored by one side in re-examination. Whether this is of any value to

11 the Chamber is a matter that the Chamber must decide, but it's taking a

12 great deal of our time.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think the accused's pointed is that this goes

14 to the question of legality, the culture of proper conduct in the police,

15 Article 7(3) matters, and I think it does arise from your

16 cross-examination, Mr. Nice. But the question is very leading.

17 The question that you asked, Mr. Milosevic, which is that: "That

18 means in the unit ... that this high-level control was organised to see

19 that legality was implemented ..." and as you well know, questions like

20 that are not permissible. They are of a very leading nature. So

21 reformulate the question.

22 Your pattern, as I see it, should be to direct the witness's

23 attention to a particular sentence or item and ask him what it means.

24 Mr. Nice has raised the question as to the value of it, the value of the

25 witness giving his interpretation of it now, and that will go to the

Page 40654

1 weight which the Chamber attaches to evidence on this agenda. And as I

2 raised with you yesterday, Mr. Milosevic, you may consider that you have

3 done as much as you can in relation to this agenda. You have spent a lot

4 of time on it in re-examination, and if you have other matters to deal

5 with, you may consider that your time would be better spent on those

6 matters. Yes.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. Now, as

8 far as this question goes, the witness quoted what it says on this

9 particular page of the agenda. He read out a sentence which reads as

10 follows: "From your PJP organise super supervisory organs for legality in

11 procedure."

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll just stop you. Just ask the witness -- I'll

13 ask him. Yes. Just ask him what it means and don't tell him. Don't

14 formulate a question which tells him the answer. That's the objection.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Now, what does "Organise super supervisory organs" mean that is

18 mentioned here?

19 A. That simply means that in addition to the leadership cadre in each

20 of the police units, which, according to general provisions, are

21 duty-bound to effect control in addition to all their other assignments,

22 here what is being determined is or, rather, an assignment is being issued

23 to establish in each PJP a separate organ or body for controlling the

24 legality of police procedure.

25 Q. And who else was responsible for legality in proceedings or

Page 40655

1 procedural conduct? Here you call them super supervisory organs. That's

2 what it says here, but who in the regular line of duty is responsible for

3 legality?

4 A. I've already said along the regular line of duty, based on regular

5 police regulations, it is the leaders of each of the units that is

6 responsible, and in the ministry there's a separate body for internal

7 control of legality.

8 Q. And this body for the internal control of legality that you

9 mentioned just now, is that a permanent body in the ministry or was it

10 just set up ad hoc for the war situation?

11 A. It is a permanent body, and as far as I remember, it was a sector

12 or department for the control of legality or supervision of legality which

13 existed at one point as an independent body or unit within the ministry

14 and at one time it was under the individual administrations.

15 Q. And what was the duty of those internal bodies for internal

16 control in the ministry?

17 A. Well, it is the duty of those bodies first and foremost to control

18 the legality and the conduct of each police unit, and specifically to act

19 upon any complaints that might come in from citizens with respect to any

20 behavioural conduct on the part of any individual policeman or a police

21 unit as a whole.

22 Q. So can we say that it is a police force within the police,

23 controlling the work of the police?

24 A. Yes, we could put it that way, roughly.

25 Q. Right. Now, on the right-hand side of this same page you have a

Page 40656

1 note where it says: "Protection from propaganda -- against propaganda."

2 The last sentence on that page.

3 A. Yes, I found it. It says: "Protection against propaganda."

4 Q. And then it says the army is fighting and the police are stealing.

5 "The VJ is waging war and the police are stealing?" What does that mean?

6 A. Well, I answered this question in Belgrade, so I can remember what

7 it means, but I had to give it some thought. This text was written -- was

8 copied out from a slogan that was a pamphlet and leaflet that was sent out

9 by NATO to effect a rift between the army and the police.

10 Q. General, could you help me out now. I found it somewhere in your

11 agenda but I'm not able to find it now. You did write down the wording of

12 a leaflet, of a pamphlet that the KLA handed out, calling upon people to

13 leave Kosovo and Metohija. Could you find that?

14 MR. NICE: Unless it is described in those terms as the wording of

15 a pamphlet, then that would be a clearly leading question. Maybe it is

16 described as a leaflet. We'll have to find out and see.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's find out. How was it described? I'm

18 asking Mr. Stevanovic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I have to find it. As far as

20 I can remember, in this notebook of mine there is a translation of the

21 text on that leaflet. I wrote it down while somebody was translating it

22 for me over the telephone from the place where it had been found. Will

23 you allow me to find it, please? It's not easy for me to find it, though.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, as quickly as you can.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 40657

1 Q. In the meantime, can I place on the overhead projector yet another

2 leaflet which had already been presented here. In all fairness, this is a

3 rather murky photocopy because the original leaflet is red, so the

4 photocopy is dark. The translation is written in hand, and the

5 translation into English is there too. Exhibit D1. You can take a look

6 at it.

7 A. I've found it, if it matters. R017240. 01724240 [as

8 interpreted].

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... what it says.

10 The point was whether you wrote down the wording of a leaflet, of a

11 pamphlet to the effect that the KLA handed out, calling up on people to

12 leave Kosovo and Metohija.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, it doesn't say

14 that it's a leaflet, but I know that it's a translation of a leaflet.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And what does it say there?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: What does it say? What is it that you have

18 written down?

19 JUDGE KWON: Could you give the page number again.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 0172420.

21 MR. NICE: It would be about page 80, I would have thought.


23 MR. NICE: Roughly, I'm guessing, from other references. If the

24 witness can give us the first line of what he's reading then we can track

25 it down.

Page 40658

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the first line, Mr. Stevanovic?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Brothers and sisters." That's the

3 beginning.

4 JUDGE KWON: Page 73.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Judge Kwon. Page 73, yes.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. General, could you please read out what you wrote here.

8 A. "Brothers and sisters, Albanians, NATO has started -" probably -

9 "a war against Serbia." Now, there's something that's in very small

10 letters.

11 Q. "That you've waited for for a long time," if I can read it.

12 A. I cannot see the other -- the second word, rather, perhaps:

13 "Which we have been waiting for for a long time."

14 Then the following asterisk: "The Serbs, out of despair, will

15 embark on despair" [as interpreted] .

16 The fourth asterisk: "The KLA is -" probably - "unable to protect

17 us -" probably - "and NATO --" I cannot read the last word.

18 Q. As far as I can read it, it says "far away."

19 A. Possibly.

20 Q. "The KLA is unable to protect us and NATO is far away."

21 A. Well, that could be it, roughly. Now I'm having some difficulty

22 in reading the rest. "Take your personal belongings and set out on foot

23 -" probably - "in large groups -" probably "groups" - "towards Macedonia

24 and -" probably - "Albania."

25 And the last point: "That is the only way for us to survive and

Page 40659

1 for NATO --" I can't read the rest.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, the question is where does this come

3 from?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have already explained,

5 Mr. President: I jotted this down as somebody telephoned the staff and

6 said that they have a leaflet from the KLA. I immediately asked for them

7 to translate the leaflet for me. They found someone who knew Albanian,

8 and I just jotted down the translation and -- in order to be able to call

9 the minister to inform him about the content of the leaflet. I saw the

10 leaflet later. I think it was pink or red or something like that. I

11 previously quoted the NATO leaflet.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask an interpretation question. I see that

13 part of that was interpreted as "In despair, the Serbs will embark on

14 despair," which is not what it says in the leaflet.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that in the translation it

16 says "illegible" whereas the witness said "in despair," and --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's have an answer from the interpreter before

18 you --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... concerned about

21 is the second use of the word "despair." That's not --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The second word was "revenge." Maybe it will be

23 corrected in the LiveNote, but the second word that is actually written

24 there and was said is "revenge."

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 40660

1 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I return to the observation which is now

2 an objection about the question, which is entirely leading in form as to

3 what this was. Not at all something that the Prosecution necessarily

4 accepts, there being entirely alternative interpretation, and how does

5 this arise under the justification that Your Honours referred to for

6 exploring this book in detail at this stage.

7 This whole line of re-examination is going to prove problematic.

8 I shall draw your attention in another way to the problems of one of the

9 particular entries that has been dealt with by this witness because it

10 touches on a matter of evidence that you're, I think, short of so I'll

11 deal with it in another way. But this last question and answer doesn't

12 seem to relate to the earlier topic at all. It's different.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's quite so. I'll ask --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, this matter is different from the

16 general subject area that you have been dealing with in your

17 re-examination, that's the culture of legality and propriety of conduct on

18 the part of the police. Tell us how this arises from cross-examination.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It arises in view of the assertions

20 made by Mr. Nice that the Serb forces, as he said, expelled Albanians from

21 Kosovo and Metohija. As a matter of fact, he explained to General

22 Stevanovic that General Stevanovic had to know that, that the Serb forces

23 were expelling Albanians from Kosovo and Metohija.

24 Here we can see a leaflet of the KLA calling upon the Albanians to

25 set out on foot in large groups towards Macedonia and Albanian.

Page 40661

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

2 Mr. Nice, Judge Kwon has reminded us that you examined on similar

3 questions, page 94 in English, at the top, "Results of the operations -

4 last remaining large groups broken up - about 2.000 liquidated - left the

5 country - 900.000 - terrorists remaining ..."

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

7 MR. NICE: Absolutely right. I cross-examined on the basis that

8 his notebook appeared to say that 900.000 people had left the country,

9 with 2.000 having been liquidated and with 300.000 remaining. Absolutely

10 right. But how does that let in, I ask rhetorically, an alleged reference

11 to a pamphlet when indeed the whole business of pamphlets is

12 controversial, as the Court will remember from the evidence of Rugova who

13 explained the -- his position on similar documents that were put -- or

14 documents of an allegedly similar type put to him and gave his explanation

15 for why it simply wasn't possible for such leaflets to be distributed in

16 the way that was suggested to him. This is a controversial issue and it

17 has to do with propaganda.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the pamphlet suggests that the KLA told

19 people to take their personal belongings and head on foot in large groups

20 towards Macedonia.

21 MR. NICE: If it was a pamphlet. The advice included that the

22 accused led with the suggestion it was a pamphlet. He didn't ask for

23 entry and ask what it was.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Higgins.

25 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, just very briefly, if I may say the

Page 40662












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13 English transcripts.













Page 40663

1 following: First of all, the issue of leading questions is one thing

2 which Your Honours are dealing with. The second point that arises

3 specifically in relation to this document is that it's correct that

4 Mr. Nice cross-examined on issues relating and touching upon deportation

5 and forcible transfer, those being two of the counts in the Kosovo

6 indictment; and if you leave aside the issue for the moment of the leading

7 question, surely as a matter of principle, first of all, Mr. Milosevic is

8 entitled to draw to the attention of this witness passages from the diary

9 and ask him what it means - he wrote it - and what it is. And he is also

10 entitled to explain what that document was, and it's then information

11 before the Trial Chamber as to what was allegedly out there and available

12 and possibly being given out - who knows - to individuals in Kosovo at the

13 time. It's circumstantial background evidence that this witness can speak

14 to --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: But does it arise? But does it arise?

16 MS. HIGGINS: Does it arise out of cross-examination?


18 MS. HIGGINS: Yes, it arises because Mr. Nice has dealt with

19 issues concerning the numbers of people who were leaving Kosovo, and it

20 arises as a subissue out of that as to possibly why people were leaving or

21 what was out there at the time.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber finds that the issue arises from

25 cross-examination, but, Mr. Milosevic, don't exhaust us on this matter.

Page 40664

1 When do you -- when will your re-examination be concluded? It should be

2 today.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As soon as I can do it, but,

4 Mr. Robinson, please bear in mind that Mr. Nice, in cross-examination, did

5 start an entire spectrum of subjects that were not the subject of

6 examination-in-chief at all.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've already ruled, so proceed.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. I believe

9 that you have made the right ruling, because this is truly relevant. It's

10 a question of why they actually left Kosovo.

11 Before I proceed, I wish to react to what Mr. Nice said a few

12 moments ago, that their witness, or his witness, challenged something.

13 May I remind you that yesterday when we were discussing the question of

14 Izbica, he said that their witnesses spoke otherwise, as if what their

15 witnesses were saying was true.

16 In relation to that, for example, in relation to Izbica, and he

17 referred to their witnesses, I wish to remind you and Mr. Kwon, who did

18 listen to their witnesses at the time, that that witness from Izbica, like

19 a few other witnesses from Izbica, that these were witnesses who cannot

20 have any kind of credibility whatsoever.

21 For example, may I remind that you on page --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... this is not

23 the moment of --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is not the moment for comment like that.

Page 40665

1 Let us move on with the re-examination and try to conclude it as quickly

2 as possible.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, Izbica was a subject

4 of cross-examination by Mr. Nice. My associates looked up these witnesses

5 that Mr. Nice referred to. Milazim Thaci testified, for example, with

6 regard to Izbica, and you have an exhibit there which is a photograph of a

7 shirt with holes, and he said that he was shot, executed with a heavy

8 machine-gun, and --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, this is how we consume time

10 needlessly. Let us proceed with the re-examination.

11 MR. NICE: Your Honour --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, not on this matter, I hope.

13 MR. NICE: Only just -- yes, but to help.


15 MR. NICE: If no, simply to draw to your attention that the

16 accused has, as a matter of fact, served as his tab 437 a Prosecution

17 partial analysis of the diary, and if you're interested in seeing it and

18 if that becomes an exhibit, the very point that we've been dealt with is

19 dealt with at paragraph 28 of that document because he chose to put in the

20 Prosecution's analysis.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

22 Yes, Mr. Milosevic, to continue with your re-examination.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Please take a look at that leaflet which you have before you on

25 the ELMO, General.

Page 40666

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the leaflet please be placed

2 on the ELMO.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The leaflet is available in its

5 original form. It is printed on the red paper. However, we also have a

6 photocopy provided by the Registry.

7 Would you please put the photocopy on the ELMO. I can't see it on

8 the screen.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Yes. This is the one that can be seen only in the courtroom, but

12 the one that is broadcast to the public does not show this leaflet.

13 Can you see the KLA symbol in the upper part of the page?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the leaflet is in Albanian?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The leaflet is printed on red paper. You have it in the records.

18 Would you please read out the translation, the translation in

19 Serbian.

20 A. I don't have it, other than what was read out to me.

21 Q. No, no, no. You have it on the next page. You have the

22 translation into Serbian. Can you see the Serbian translation?

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who provided that translation, Mr. Milosevic?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Those who found the leaflet.

25 Somebody out there in the field who found the leaflet translated it right

Page 40667

1 there on the spot, under the existing conditions, wrote down the

2 translation in handwriting and then sent it further up the chain.

3 You also have the translation into English, and I assume that

4 somebody verified it and compared it both with the Albanian text and the

5 Serbian text.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Can you read out the translation?

8 A. I can, although this is not in my handwriting.

9 Q. I never said it was in your handwriting. I just said that this is

10 a similar type of leaflet. I never indicated that it was in your

11 handwriting.

12 A. I apologise. Therefore, we here -- or, rather: "Distinguished

13 fellow citizens. We are hereby informing you to evacuate yourselves from

14 the territories of the Republic of Kosovo which are threatened, because in

15 the continuation of combat, the large offensive of the Serb occupying

16 forces in our Republic of Kosovo is continued. We cannot defend you.

17 This cannot be done by the KLA either.

18 "I have -- we have to save our people and their lives. Therefore,

19 set out immediately in the direction of Albania and Macedonia. We have

20 asked from NATO to halt the Serb occupiers. With that assistance, we have

21 won. However, the forces, the forces," yes, I think it says, "the forces

22 of the Serb occupiers are in the entire territory of Kosovo. They have

23 launched a large offensive. The KLA forces are unable to put up

24 resistance and defend the Siptar nation. We are hereby informing all

25 Siptars who are exposed to danger at the hands of the Serb occupiers to

Page 40668

1 evacuate themselves first and foremost in the direction of Macedonia and

2 Albania.

3 "The President of the Republic of Kosovo, Ibrahim Rugova." This

4 is the text of this translation written in Cyrillic.

5 Q. So one translation was dictated to you over the phone. This is

6 another leaflet. General, based on your stay in Kosovo, do you know that

7 there were a number of such leaflets urging Albanians to move out from

8 Kosovo and go to Albania or Macedonia?

9 A. I know that a number of leaflets were dropped. I didn't know,

10 though, that the contents were different. The contents of the leaflet

11 that was dictated to me on the phone is similar to this one but not

12 identical with it.

13 Q. Nobody's claiming that.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you're again asking leading

15 questions. The fact that the Prosecutor has not objected or that the

16 point has not been taken doesn't mean that when the Chamber comes to

17 assess the weight it will not take account of the fact that the answer

18 resulted from an impermissible form of questioning. An answer which comes

19 from a leading question is relatively worthless. This is an important

20 area of the case and you must be careful, you must be circumspect in the

21 way questions are phrased. Proceed.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. General, did you hear that there were such leaflets urging them to

24 do this or did you hear of just one such leaflet that -- the translation

25 of which was dictated to you on the phone?

Page 40669

1 A. I wrote down the translation of one leaflet which was translated

2 to me on the phone. However, I heard about a number of leaflets that were

3 dropped in Pristina and some other towns. I thought that all those

4 leaflets were identical, the same. However, based on this translation, it

5 seems that there were a number of such leaflets with different text.

6 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, please, let's take a look at the next

7 page, 449. Please take a look at your agenda. 449 are the last three

8 digits of the ERN number.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What does it say here, to focus on the following tasks, look under

11 1 and 2. What does it say under 1 and 2?

12 A. Under 1, it says: "Anti-terrorist operations," and 2 is:

13 "Prevention of crime and anarchy."

14 Q. What can we see under this point: "Prevention of crime," and so

15 on?

16 A. It says: "Prevention of crime and anarchy." And then underneath,

17 it says: "Solving grave crimes - murders - lootings," and then

18 underneath, it says: "Finding and confiscating most likely stolen items."

19 Q. Stolen items. Very well. Let's go to the following page. What

20 does it say on the right-hand side, 450 are the last three digits. It

21 says: "Problems."

22 A. Yes, under item 6, it says: "Problems," and then underneath:

23 "3.600 detained."

24 Q. What happened to those 3.600 people who were detained? How many

25 were kept in detention and how many were released? Do you remember?

Page 40670

1 A. As a rule, such detentions of a large number of people were

2 generally brief. After the typical procedure, as a rule, majority of

3 those were released and only those who were suspected of belonging to the

4 terrorist organisations or having committed some crimes were kept in

5 detention. In the continuation, if this is needed, it says "Turning

6 terrorists into civilians." This is an issue that we have mentioned

7 several times here.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you remember, General, what this is actually

9 about? The circumstances in which 3.600 people were detained, or is it a

10 proposal to detain 3.600 people, or is it over a period of time, or is it

11 on one day, or what's it all about? I'm finding this just a tedious

12 exercise in going through notes that you can't actually tell us very much

13 in detail about.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Naturally I can't go into detail

15 regarding each entry, but I can tell you something more about this

16 notation that 3.600 people were detained. Most likely this has to do with

17 a total number of people detained from the beginning of the war until this

18 date. I don't know what was this date. And that -- this was a large

19 problem for police, namely to investigate all of these detainees and

20 decide who needs to be released and who needs to be detained further,

21 because the heading above it indicates problems. This is an unusually

22 large number of detained persons, and the resources of police in Kosovo

23 were not so great to be able to process all of this in the -- within the

24 time deadline specified in law. Those who were detained were suspected of

25 having ties to terrorist organisation. However, the majority were

Page 40671

1 released soon.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: So you think this is the total number who were

3 detained between the 24th of March and the 7th or 8th of May; is that

4 right?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: And who were they?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already explained that these

8 were people regarding whom there were reasonable grounds to believe that

9 they either belonged to terrorist organisations or participated in

10 terrorist acts. And this probably does not reflect the situation on that

11 date but probably reflects the total number of persons detained from the

12 beginning of the war. I'm not quite sure.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that says -- your last three words say it

14 all. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: As I indicated yesterday, the Chamber will have

16 to give very careful consideration to the weight to be attached to the

17 evidence that has been adduced through this witness both in

18 examination-in-chief and in cross-examination and also in re-examination.

19 In some cases the witness is fairly certain as to the meaning of entries

20 in this diary, or agenda as he calls it. In other cases, his answers

21 amount to nothing more than a mere conjecture, a mere surmise. But it is

22 a matter that the Trial Chamber will have to address, as I said, very

23 carefully.

24 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Let us move on.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 40672

1 Q. General, I cannot find in your agenda a similar entry, but I

2 believe that I saw somewhere in your agenda an entry reflecting the number

3 of persons detained and then kept in detention. Can you find that? I

4 think that I remember seeing something along the lines 1.000 or so

5 detained and about 200 kept in detention.

6 A. I think that there must be such an entry in the agenda, but I --

7 it wouldn't be easy for me to find it. But I think it's stated taken into

8 custody and detained. And the difference is great, because normally you

9 take into custody a large number of people but then you keep in detention

10 only a small number of them.

11 Q. Very well. At the bottom of the page there is the word "Judicial

12 system." Is that also something that falls under this category, under the

13 heading "Problems"?

14 A. Yes. It says there "Judicial system," and probably has to do with

15 the relations between the police and the judicial system.

16 Q. All right. And then the following heading is "The movement of

17 civilians." Can you find that?

18 A. Yes. It says here: "Movements of civilians." This is the last

19 asterisk on this page.

20 Q. All right. And below that it says something: "Across the border

21 or not across the border," and then it says "200.000." What does this

22 mean?

23 A. I've explained this yesterday. This was the constant dilemma that

24 we had as to what should be done with the people who wanted to cross the

25 border. Should we apply the force and prevent them or should we let them

Page 40673

1 go? Either option was difficult, in a way.

2 JUDGE KWON: General, could you read the number again after "Over

3 or across the border." Is it not 800.000?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could be 800.000, although at

5 first glance it looks as 200.000. But it could be 800.000, because as I

6 told you before, I seem to remember that figure, and I think that this was

7 towards the end of the war.

8 MR. NICE: Another example of the dangers of leading, and Your

9 Honour made the observation that I don't always take the point. If I took

10 every point, I'd hardly be on my seat.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

12 May I ask the general, you have called this document an agenda as

13 distinct from a diary. What is the distinction that you make between an

14 agenda and a diary? This may be relevant to the question of how this

15 document is to be viewed by the Trial Chamber.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would say that the best name

17 for this document would be a notebook. It's not a diary. Definitely not

18 a diary, because "diary" means noting down the events, what was going on,

19 whereas this document obviously does not do that. These are my personal

20 notes. And if you go through this carefully, you will see it for

21 yourself.

22 You can find here the words of -- uttered by other people, the

23 words that I planned to utter myself at a meeting. You can find the text

24 of a NATO leaflet here or a KLA leaflet. So the contents are diverse and

25 written down in abbreviated form which was clear only to me at that

Page 40674

1 particular time, and this is what is problematic in a way.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Isn't that the distinction, that in this notebook

3 or agenda the format is abbreviated, and in a diary it would not be so

4 abbreviated?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that would be the vital

6 difference. A diary should be a description of what actually happened, or

7 a description of how I see what happened, my opinions of something that

8 happened. So a diary is a description of events and things that happened

9 in one's life, in the course of one's job, and so on. That's how I

10 understand the term "diary." Whereas here you can see that they are

11 notes. Some notes refer to the future, what is planned in the future,

12 what I want to say somewhere or what somebody said at one point in time,

13 what somebody told me, what somebody conveyed to me over the telephone and

14 asked me to pass the message on to someone else. So it's very difficult

15 for me now to remember all the details of my notes.

16 I remember what I thought very well and that those notes that I

17 jotted down and that are part of the terminology and words that I use. It

18 is difficult for me to remember what other people said and that I took

19 note of and why it was put in that way and so on and so forth.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Let's move on. General, would you turn to page 451, the ERN

23 number has the last digits 451.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And could you explain to us what it says there.

Page 40675

1 A. Where, on the left or right?

2 Q. 451 left, left-hand side. Or left and right.

3 JUDGE KWON: General, before we move off, I would like to hear the

4 explanation on the next line after "800.000." There it says: "Still

5 3.000 - 400.000." Could you explain that to us, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, quite certainly this refers to

7 the number of those citizens who remained in Kosovo and Metohija. That is

8 quite obvious. That's the assessment, the estimate. The number of

9 citizens who did not leave Kosovo and Metohija during that period of time

10 when that note was written.

11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. General, I asked you to turn to page 451, the ERN number, and

15 could you explain to us what it says there.

16 A. I think I've --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us find it in the English. It's the very

18 next page?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think it's the very next

20 page but somewhere there. Let me just take a look. Yes, the next page.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I explained in detail

23 what this means in response to a question from the Prosecutor. Of course,

24 I can repeat it all.

25 JUDGE KWON: Are we dealing with "No corpse, no crime"? Yes.

Page 40676

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that what you're dealing with, "No corpse, no

2 crime"? We have been through that already, so you can --

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's what comes next here.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, I see. Yes. Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Milosevic.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. General, could you please explain to us what it says here.

7 A. Here we have a note -- here we have a note of a statement by the

8 representative of either the state security service or the public --

9 military security about a meeting on the perfidiousness in the work of the

10 KLA terrorists. The first thesis says: "No corpse, no crime." And in

11 crime that is a well-known thesis, a philosophy, a manner of thinking,

12 that is to say what criminals do when there is a death, that is to cover

13 up the bodies, to cover up the corpse to avoid crime or responsibility and

14 accountability for a crime.

15 In the second point, the second thesis is that that is done, and

16 the word "mucki" is used.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We explained what that

18 means; perfidious, treacherous, in the Serbian language perhaps worse.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is much worse than the word

20 "perfidious," and it can only refer to somebody who is your enemy.

21 According to the third thesis as written here, it is stated:

22 "They will justify the aggression using evidence of crimes." So that is

23 an assessment made by persons from the security organs, and their

24 operative knowledge indicates that they will make scenes which will

25 allegedly prove certain crimes.

Page 40677

1 JUDGE BONOMY: So in -- with that background, can you explain the

2 reference to "No corpse, no crime"?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me repeat. That sentence --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Please don't repeat. If you want to use evidence

5 of crimes to justify aggression, you need the corpses. What I'm trying to

6 understand is the reference to "No corpse, no crime" in the context in

7 which you've just described the three separate lines here.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've explained that, too, Your

9 Honour. Allow me to repeat it in a different way perhaps, explain it in

10 another way. I've already said that they are getting rid of the bodies

11 from the police, removing them from the police, the police who is going to

12 come in and prove a crime, and then they group them and collect them

13 together in mass graves later on, which they want to show as being the

14 consequence of crimes committed by Serb forces, and in that context I

15 wanted to explain the existence of this alleged mass grave in Pusto Selo.

16 When we learnt of that grave site, then we remembered the story and what

17 was said at that meeting about all this.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I have to say at first sight that's a very

19 imaginative reading of what's here. There's no reference to mass graves,

20 burying bodies, or anything of that nature. What's referred to is

21 obliterating the evidence of crimes.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't agree, of course, because I

23 know exactly what the subject was and what was said about it at the time.

24 Of course, I just jotted down certain theses and guidelines for myself so

25 that I could have a proper understanding of the problem in hand, because

Page 40678












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 40679

1 this wasn't aimed at explaining this to anybody else. All I did was to

2 note it down for myself, what I understood it to mean in the way that I

3 understood it.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. General --

6 JUDGE KWON: General, you began your answer to the question put by

7 the accused by saying that this is a note of a statement by the

8 representative of either the state security service or military security

9 about a meeting on the perfidiousness, something, but we note on the right

10 side the words "The president." Is this not the word of the president?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, obviously I wasn't precise

12 enough, or the interpretation was not the right one. I said clearly this

13 is my note about what other people said, what somebody said, one of the

14 representatives of one or the other service at a meeting held in the

15 president's place. So some -- my note was that somebody had said -- a

16 representative of the security services said it and it was stated at the

17 meeting at the president's place. I think that makes it clear now.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you need to consider this: It is

19 not every point that is raised in cross-examination that you should

20 re-examine on. You must be selective as to the points, and you need only

21 re-examine on a point where you think your case has been challenged and

22 you need to rehabilitate the witness, or you may end up prejudicing your

23 case.

24 My recollection on this particular passage is that we had a

25 translation which was in your favour. Why are you reopening it?

Page 40680

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me be very direct on this point,

2 Mr. Robinson -- but let me just ask a question before I do so.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. General, in the explanations we have just heard by Mr. Bonomy,

5 covering up the bodies and so on, the corpses, how does this second thesis

6 that you jotted down, how is that incorporated and can be fitted into what

7 he said? Because you have jotted down different questions raised by

8 individuals. This, in the B/C/S interpreter's note, it is "mucki rad."

9 So how does that thesis fall into what Mr. Bonomy said?

10 A. Well, for somebody to use his own -- for his own work, an

11 adjective of that kind is very difficult to explain because it was used as

12 a very low, nasty word that word was used.

13 Q. Now, what does it say as the one but last thesis? It says: "We

14 will work --" what does it say? I don't know what it says here. "When

15 the mission arrives, it will be more difficult --" "When the mission

16 arrives, it will be more difficult for us." We can see that.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, what mission could this refer to in Kosovo in general terms

19 during those years? What does the word "mission" there imply?

20 A. I really cannot remember any other meaning of that word except for

21 the Kosovo Verification Mission.

22 Q. Fine. Now, on this piece of paper there is no date.

23 A. No, there is no date.

24 Q. Now, tell me this: The mission is mentioned, a mission that is

25 supposed to arrive, due to arrive.

Page 40681

1 A. Well, yes. That's something I thought about, and I already said

2 that, I think. This sentence could not be written after that date. It

3 would have to be -- or, rather, that meeting would have to have been held

4 before the arrival of the Verification Mission, that is to say in the

5 course of 1998. So that's the problem that I highlighted when I explained

6 all the problems relating to this particular entry.

7 Q. Fine.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, let me answer you,

9 Mr. Robinson. I had to take the witness back to this point because the

10 manner in which Mr. Nice presented this entire entry or note led to what

11 he wished it to lead to, produced what he wished, that is to say that in

12 the media we should hear assertions that in the diary, as they call this,

13 the diary of General Stevanovic, there was an entry that I ordered corpses

14 to be removed from Kosovo. So it was only on the basis of this particular

15 note, this entry that he wrote down there, these theses that he

16 pinpointed, where the term used was "mucki rad," perfidious work of those

17 who worked perfidiously, which was common knowledge. And that is why I

18 claim --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I will continue, but that is

21 why I claim that Mr. Nice aims at sensationalism and not this trial, and

22 that will be proved correct in due course.

23 MR. NICE: I am obliged to rise on this occasion to make two

24 points. The interpretation "mucki rad" will be the subject of a report

25 from the CLSS, and by no means is it accepted that it has a single and

Page 40682

1 simple interpretation. It was, after all, the original words read out by

2 and originally interpreted by the witness in the form of "back-breaking"

3 that we heard.

4 The Court will also have in mind in light of the last observation

5 by both the accused in conjunction with the witness that page 106 - and

6 the pages reflect pages in the book - begins with numbers 7 and 8, and the

7 Chamber will have in mind the observations on timing the witness has

8 himself made about item number 6 on the previous page.

9 The suggestion that I am doing other than my best to conduct a

10 careful analysis of material of this kind that comes before us is entirely

11 rejected and inappropriate. I put my case, and I don't for one minute

12 resile from a sentence of it.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Nice.

14 Let's proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I have to object to

16 what Mr. Nice has just said, that is to say the witness never said -- used

17 the word "mucan." It says in the Serbian language here "mucki rad." Now,

18 the fact that Mr. Nice doesn't know Serbian is not his fault, of course,

19 no fault of his own, but I who know the Serbian language very well know

20 full well that "mucki rad" cannot have more explanations or more meanings,

21 as Mr. Nice claims. And regardless of what any of his interpreters or

22 translators would say, there are 10 million Serbs listening and everybody

23 knows what "mucki rad" means, and everybody knows that "mucki rad" means

24 nothing else but something underhand, something low and underhand.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you Mr. Milosevic. We have --

Page 40683

1 JUDGE BONOMY: General, can I --

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I haven't been yet accused by

3 Mr. Nice of not knowing the Serbian language.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask you this: The entry that we are

5 considering is on the same page as the preceding entries with the numbers

6 7 and 8, and they seem to follow on from the page before that with the

7 number 6. Now, in the light of that, do you still maintain that the entry

8 we've been looking at relates to 1998?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I maintain that only by the use of

10 the word "mission," because really there is no other mission or anything

11 else that that term would use to explain any other concept, any other

12 mission.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: When, then, do you think that the entries number 6,

14 7, and 8 which span these two pages were written?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apart from replacing the staff, it

16 was done in six months. So the 8 is a relative figure. We can't use that

17 to claim anything, "8. Replacing the staff." And number 7, "The

18 terrorists now," that doesn't mean much just taken by itself.

19 Now, 6, "Problems," that should relate, in my opinion, to the

20 wartime period. The numbers, of course, I can't say anything about that.

21 It was slightly higher during the war. It says 16.000 as a maximum number

22 here.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Do these -- do these -- obviously numbers 7 and 8

24 are on a different page from number 6, but do they look as though they are

25 consecutive pages?

Page 40684

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how it would appear, yes.

4 JUDGE KWON: So taking up that question by my colleague, the last

5 item on that part in B/C/S, top right, there's a number, 3.600. I think

6 that's the identical number which we saw on the previous page, which

7 refers to the number of persons detained. I think that this is a

8 breakdown of that number. Could you explain that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally think that this just

10 happens to be a coincidence. I assume that this number, 3.600, on the

11 next page refers to the number of personnel in the unit. Kuci, 500, for

12 instance; 5 times 100. So I cannot see from this information that that

13 has anything to do with the number of detained persons. But indeed it is

14 the same number.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. What does it mean "500 home," then?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe to return home at that time,

17 but I cannot identify what the rest means, "5 times 100," because 5 times

18 100 -- or 500. And I can't read the word after that at all.

19 "KP" can only mean Kosovo Polje, but I'm not sure about that

20 either.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. General, 455 is the page.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That's the 21st of May, 1999.

25 A. Yes.

Page 40685

1 Q. On the left-hand side you have "asanacija, sanitisation, 1," and

2 the second one is "Crimes, crimes - resolving."

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. And "KP Dom Istok" is a note that you have further on on the

5 right-hand side. What does it say there?

6 A. I cannot say. Ah, yes. The second point is: "0830 KPD Istok."

7 Q. "11"?

8 A. "11 projectiles," probably. There is no full stop after that.

9 "Assistant warden -" probably - "killed." That corresponds to what I

10 remember as well, Kalicanin or something like that.

11 And then the next point is "997," probably "prisoners," and it is

12 hard for me to read the rest of what is written here.

13 Q. "0930: Unmanned aircraft shot down"?

14 A. Yes, "unmanned aircraft shot down," but maybe it says "fleeing."

15 I cannot read it. Maybe that's what it means but I have no recollection,

16 really.

17 Q. And then what does it say, "Mines"?

18 A. "Humanitarian --"

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please speak one at a time.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I remember that a team

21 of the UN, of the humanitarian organisations, had a problem with

22 booby-traps, and there were consequences of that.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Is there any mention of cluster bombs there?

25 A. Cluster bombs is the last point within that entry.

Page 40686

1 Q. And what's the next word, which I cannot read?

2 A. It says "Emigration."

3 Q. And underneath, "Serbs"?

4 A. "Serbs, Albanians."

5 Q. One is Serbs, the other is Albanians, the two bullets.

6 A. Yes. Perhaps that actually pertains to emigration. So evacuation

7 perhaps would have been the right word. It probably means departure from

8 Kosovo, but I'm not sure.

9 Q. And then further on, it says: "Meeting in Belgrade."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What's the next word, "statistics"?

12 A. Yes, "Statistics of criminal offences committed and of

13 perpetrators."

14 Q. So "Statistics of criminal offences committed and of

15 perpetrators." And then underneath that it says "statistics --"

16 A. "Refugee statistics."

17 Q. So it has to do with refugee statistics?

18 A. Yes, and residence statistics, and so on.

19 Q. And then "Terrorist attacks," and then it says, "The number of

20 detainees, statistics of cases, terrorists attacks and their

21 consequences."

22 A. "Bombing and its consequences," and its practically illegible from

23 there on.

24 Q. "Map of deployment," as far as I can see.

25 A. Yes.

Page 40687

1 Q. So these are the tasks, as far as I understand it.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

3 Mr. Nice, Ms. Higgins, can I ask, is this a reasonable way to

4 approach this agenda? There are two problems: When the entries are not

5 legible, the witness has to decipher and sometimes the question suggests

6 the meaning, suggests -- not the meaning but what is written, and the

7 witness may or may not agree. The second issue is as to the meaning which

8 the witness is -- which the witness gives to the particular item. But in

9 my view, there is generally a problem in deciding how to assess the

10 meaning that the witness gives now to the passage, but that problem is

11 aggravated when the particular item, the particular passage is not clear.

12 And when the particular passage is not clear, I wonder whether he should

13 be asked at all about the meaning.

14 MR. NICE: If I go first, I don't think that, beyond the

15 objections I've made already, I could raise specifically an objection that

16 lack of -- or alleged lack of clarity of a passage would automatically bar

17 further questioning about it, not least because the Prosecution's position

18 will be that this is a witness who is not worthy of credit and, therefore,

19 questions of deciphering the passages in the book may not themselves be

20 accurate or honest assertions by him, and accordingly I fear that our

21 position will be that his answers on particular passages of potential

22 relevance will to be seen as a whole. So that it was with that in mind,

23 amongst other reasons, that I restricted the questions I could ask to a

24 very limited number of topics, and on all of those I think he acknowledged

25 the handwriting as clearly his and I don't think he - I may be wrong - but

Page 40688

1 in any of those passages did he raise significant issues of clarity or

2 non-clarity of the written word, but he has done that with other passages

3 since, and eager though I am to bring this -- or hear this re-examination

4 brought to a close, I don't feel I can invite you simply to cut off his

5 answers on that. My arguments about that may include arguments of the

6 kind I've intimated.

7 So I'm sorry I can't be more helpful.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

9 Ms. Higgins, very briefly.

10 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, very briefly, as I have addressed the

11 issue before.

12 Concerning this evidence, in my submission it has to be taken

13 evidently, the original, the translation that has been provided, and the

14 evidence that is being given by the witness in the witness box. It's

15 going to be one of those issues, in my submission, that will be -- have to

16 be dealt with in final submissions as to what the Trial Chamber should

17 advisedly take from this evidence, it being ultimately a matter for your

18 discretion and your decision.

19 I'm not sure that I can assist very much further beyond that, Your

20 Honour. There are clearly difficulties which are inherent in any type of

21 document like this. It's clear that the witness has been very specific on

22 some of the entries and has been able to assist. On others, it's less

23 clear.

24 I'm not sure how I can really assist you any further, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic, briefly.

Page 40689

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, since these are personal notes

2 taken by the witness that were written just in abbreviated form as an

3 outline, I think that these personal notes can be interpreted only by the

4 witness. That is an elementary rule. It's not that he was keeping

5 minutes of any kind. He was making personal notes for his own use in

6 terms of what he considered necessary during the course of his work. So

7 he's the one who can interpret these notes. And I think that there are

8 legible sections in these notes, and it can be seen very clearly there is

9 a red thread that goes throughout this notebook, care for, lawfulness,

10 civilians, resolving crimes, moral behaviour on the part of the police,

11 and so on and so forth. That can clearly be identified from one note to

12 the other.

13 And now Mr. Nice's objection to the effect that I have been

14 putting many questions about this notebook, as the witness called it

15 himself, I wish to remind you that it's precisely from Mr. Nice that I

16 received this document in accordance with Rule 68. It was quite clear to

17 them when they gave it to me as exculpatory documentation that it contains

18 notes that clearly indicate that even in his private notes that were not

19 meant for publication of any kind this witness wrote things down the way

20 they were.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

22 MR. NICE: Its disclosure was not on the basis of being wholly or

23 exclusively under Rule 68 from everything that's known about this document

24 and from the way it was raised in questioning with this witness when he

25 was interviewed as a suspect. It's always been, at best, a document that

Page 40690

1 might have had material that could have been interpreted as exculpatory.

2 That was one of reasons for serving it, but it would have been served in

3 any event.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Since this matter has arisen twice, I think it

5 appropriate to indicate at least a preliminary view I have. I think what

6 Mr. Milosevic has submitted just now is very close to the mark of the

7 significance of the document. It is an aide-memoire. It's a notebook, as

8 the witness has explained, and its use may either enhance or indeed

9 undermine the credibility and reliability of the witness's evidence.

10 Beyond that, it may have a separate use as identifying statements

11 made by people which are either consistent with or inconsistent with other

12 evidence and may either support or undermine that evidence. Indeed, the

13 entries could, I suppose, in extreme circumstances also be viewed

14 individually as indicating something. But it seems to me that its primary

15 use is an aide-memoire to the oral evidence being given by the witness.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll take the break now for half an hour.

17 --- Recess taken at 11.29 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, please continue.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. General, in one of your previous notations in your agenda, you

22 entered the information concerning the bombing of the Dubrava KP Dom in

23 Istok. I hope you remember that, because we just took a look at it in the

24 previous session. Was that something that was reported to you? Was that

25 information you received?

Page 40691

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Please take a look at page --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Microphone for the witness.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will repeat my answer. Yes. It

6 is obvious that that was reported to me either from the Pec secretariat or

7 perhaps one of the members of the staff in Pristina.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Please take a look at page 457.

10 A. I have it.

11 Q. On the left side, what does it say there under the second

12 asterisk?

13 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the second asterisk, it says,

15 "Istok evacuated," and then underneath, "591 healthy."

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You mean 591?

18 A. Yes. "591 healthy - 196 wounded (75)" of 70. I'm not quite sure

19 what it is. And then underneath it, the following entry is

20 "Dead." This is what this abbreviation stands for. "80 plus 7 plus 4

21 equals 91." That's what it says there.

22 Q. So that was the information you received and this is what you

23 noted down regarding Istok.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you, General. And now, finally, page 459.

Page 40692

1 JUDGE KWON: General, do you remember what it means, 80 plus 7

2 plus 4? Do you remember?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. It could imply

4 some kind of a structure; men, women. I'm not quite sure what it means.

5 Or perhaps I received information subsequently, in stages, and I kept

6 adding these figures.

7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could it be different locations?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. It could only imply

10 different stages at which I received information about the newly uncovered

11 bodies or the dead or something like that.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. General, page 459. On the left side under the second asterisk,

14 what does it say?

15 A. It says: "The legality of the decree --" "Legality," and then

16 underneath it says: "Decree, failure to respond to mobilisation, criminal

17 responsibility," and then an abbreviation.

18 JUDGE KWON: 117.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Very well. I have just a few more questions regarding this

21 agenda, General. Please tell us very briefly under what circumstances you

22 made these notations, these notes.

23 A. Under very different circumstances; sometimes in meetings,

24 sometimes as I was preparing for meetings, sometimes when somebody called

25 me on the phone and gave me certain information. So the contents of my

Page 40693

1 notes are quite diverse in terms of how I was writing this down. This

2 could reflect my thought, this could reflect somebody else's thoughts, it

3 could be something that I agree with, something that I do not agree with.

4 So different kinds of things are recorded in this notebook, and their

5 origin was quite diverse as well.

6 Q. Very well. You are very familiar with your own notebook, and I

7 assume that you could answer several questions regarding everything that

8 is entered here.

9 Based on what is entered in your agenda, what can be said about

10 the ethnic structure of Kosovo and Metohija that our state organs and

11 politicians advocated?

12 A. That can be seen in a thesis, in one of the theses, but I know

13 very well that the police of Serbia advocated multi-ethnic structure in

14 Kosovo and Metohija, and in one of the entries it is stated clearly that

15 the ethnic composition of police needs to be improved in certain regions.

16 Q. And based on your agenda, what can be seen about the conduct of

17 state organs, police, and the army?

18 A. In several places in the agenda I can -- we can see that the

19 lawful conduct of police is emphasised.

20 Q. What about the attitude of state organs with respect to the crimes

21 committed and the perpetrators of those crimes?

22 A. Well, the same can be said about that. We can add to that that it

23 was assisted upon the legality of police action and on taking measures

24 against anybody who committed any kind of an offence.

25 Q. What can be said about the attitude of state organs towards

Page 40694












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 40695

1 civilians?

2 A. It is obvious that it was reiterated that the civilians needed to

3 be protected and provided assistance.

4 Q. What can be seen from the agenda as to the attitude towards

5 terrorists?

6 A. What we can see is that the terrorists were the only ones against

7 whom police needed to take firm action in order to ensure law and order in

8 Kosovo and Metohija.

9 Q. What about the attitude of state organs regarding the departure or

10 non-departure of Albanians across the state border?

11 A. Regarding those issues, in the agenda we can see that there was a

12 concern regarding that and that various steps were taken or various

13 measures were taken regarding the columns and entire villages which were

14 moving towards Macedonia and Albania in terms of humanitarian assistance

15 provided, registering these people, registering their place of residence

16 and so on.

17 Q. What can be seen regarding the return of Albanian and not Albanian

18 refugees to their places of residence and other safe locations?

19 A. Out of several entries we can see that there were attempts to

20 return civilians, various methods concerning how to ensure that return,

21 and other concrete steps that were taken.

22 Q. What about the information available to state organs concerning

23 the urging, attempts urging -- attempts to urge Albanian residents to move

24 out?

25 A. Well, we saw several leaflets to that effect.

Page 40696

1 Q. What about the issue of sanitisation? What was the attitude of

2 state organs concerning the clearing up of the terrain and sanitisation?

3 A. It is obvious that it was implied that under that term

4 "sanitisation" we meant all the steps that needed to be taken in order to

5 clear up the terrain; to remove corpses, to remove carcasses, to ensure

6 communication, and so on.

7 Q. The agenda in its totality, does it clearly reflect what was the

8 intention of our state organs? Did they want the people to move out or to

9 remain?

10 A. They absolutely were not in favour of moving out. The moving out

11 was something that caused concern of state organs. They did everything

12 they could to prevent it. The only way they could have prevented it was

13 to use force, and in our assessment the use of force was impermissible.

14 Q. Since Mr. Nice put questions to you regarding the agenda, please

15 tell us, the totality of the agenda, does it indicate that Mr. Nice took

16 out some sentences out of context and distorted them?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. That's totally out of order.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Thank you, General. We're now going to turn to the footage shown

21 by Mr. Nice about the crime involving the execution of six persons. Did

22 you have occasion to see the entire footage?

23 A. I saw only what was shown during my testimony.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the audiovisual booth play

25 just a few excerpts that I would like witness to comment upon. Professor

Page 40697

1 Rakic has marked everything and it should be in the booth.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Can you please tell us, what date can we see here, General?

4 General, can you see the date?

5 A. I still don't have it on my screen.

6 [Videotape played]

7 A. This is the 25th of June, 1995.

8 Q. By showing this footage, were we supposed to infer, to conclude

9 that the priest was blessing people who were about to commit a crime or

10 something else?

11 A. That was not my impression that the criminals were being blessed.

12 If I remember correctly, what happened actually took place after that or

13 subsequently.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

15 What did that scene indicate to you? You have said what it did

16 not. I'm asking what did it indicate to you?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This scene --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've asked the witness the question.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course if we put aside the

20 knowledge that I acquired about what happened afterwards, this scene

21 depicts an Orthodox custom that is performed with respect to persons in

22 uniform. So I, of course, now exclude what I knew about what happened

23 subsequently. There was no way for me to know what would happen after

24 this.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, it was my intention to

Page 40698

1 emphasise that by presenting it in this way, Mr. Nice in fact insulted the

2 Serbian Orthodox Church because this has nothing to do with what happened

3 afterwards.

4 Would you please play the following excerpt.

5 MR. NICE: I'm quite used to the accused's inappropriate and

6 unjustified remarks, but he seems to be exceeding himself today. Can I

7 invite the Chamber to restrain him from descending any further into

8 personal observations, which are unmerited and inappropriate.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic; refrain from such remarks.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would the audio booth play the

11 following excerpt, please.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I hope you remember the date. It was the 25th or the 26th. Can

15 you see the date here?

16 A. Yes. The 26th of June, 1995.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Please continue. Please

18 play on.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. The following excerpt is dated when?

22 A. 27th of June, 1995.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please play on.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 40699

1 Q. There's no date here. We can see the date. Can you tell us the

2 date?

3 A. The 30th of June, 1995.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please play on.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. What date can we see now?

7 A. The 1st of July, 1995.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please play on.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 3rd of July, 1995.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. General, since you didn't see the entire footage, were you able to

12 see that after the 3rd of July in this entire two-hour footage there is

13 not another single date indicated?

14 A. No, I was not able to see that if you are referring to the footage

15 that was shown previously. Today I saw only one excerpt without a date.

16 Q. What I'm trying to say is that in the entire tape following the

17 3rd of July, 1995, there is no single other date indicated.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you please play the second

19 tape, or the second excerpt you received.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I think we have already seen this here, but the other tape. You

23 saw this cut immediately after one scene depicting a conversation taking

24 place in a company where there are some females as well. There is a cut

25 and we move to this scene taking place in a truck.

Page 40700

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You as a person who is experienced in police investigation, would

3 you say that this was a compilation, that this was added on later?

4 MR. NICE: That is an astonishing leading question. Just because

5 this is being clearly played out for a different audience, let me make it

6 quite plain: This tape was identified by the limited extracts played in

7 order that the witness could have the opportunity to help, as he had said

8 he was inclined to do, with identification of people shown as murderers.

9 In the light, he hasn't come back with any further information and there

10 have been developments we know about.

11 The detailed history of this film will be available in the

12 application that will be made that this video should be produced as an

13 exhibit in due course, and it is quite inappropriate for the accused,

14 after I don't know how many warnings this morning, to ask a question in

15 the form he did, plainly aimed at an objective other than getting helpful

16 evidence before this Court.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I am to tell you if you continue

18 in that vein, I will disallow any further playing of this tape. You can

19 ask questions that are not leading. You did so about four or five, ten

20 minutes ago. You asked several questions in relation to the diary, a

21 series of about six questions, and they were put perfectly properly. If

22 you have another purpose to serve by asking leading questions, that will

23 not be facilitated by this Chamber.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I hope --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't want to hear anything. Just continue.

Page 40701

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please may we see the second tape,

2 14 minutes, 10 seconds, roughly.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a technical problem? We are awaiting

4 the second tape.

5 I understand that the rewinding process is taking place.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. General, were you able to see the vehicle, the black vehicle?

9 A. Yes, I saw it.

10 Q. Did you see the sign on it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what were the markings or sign on the vehicle?

13 A. Obviously it was a vehicle of the army belonging -- of Srpska

14 Krajina. The three letters I can recognise and know they belong to the

15 number plates which belong to the army of the Republic of Srpska Krajina.

16 Q. Yes. And did you see the picture on the door of the vehicle and

17 what --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what did it say there?

20 A. It said "Detachment," "Odred," and I saw a Skorpion sign, but I

21 don't know what it said underneath that.

22 Q. Did you see that it said "Odred Boca," "Detachment Boca"?

23 A. I saw the "Detachment" part and the picture of the Skorpion, but I

24 wasn't able to see the "Boca" part.

25 Q. Well, it's Mr. Nice's tape and we can see that on the tape, but

Page 40702

1 tell us, General, please, whether any kind of markings of that type or

2 vehicle or name Detachment, whether it could ever have been part of a

3 police unit of any kind belonging to Serbia?

4 A. I say with full responsibility no, and I stand by what I said

5 earlier on.

6 Q. Very well.

7 A. In my answer, while you're looking for your next question, I said

8 quite clearly that to the best of my knowledge gained in August and

9 September 1995 was that that unit belonged to the army of the Republic of

10 Srpska Krajina. I didn't, of course, see on the previous footage the

11 licence plate and --

12 Q. It says "Odred," "Detachment," and underneath it says "Boca."

13 A. Yes. I can see that now.

14 Q. Right. Well, we've seen that now. Now let's just hear what it

15 says at 1:47. The time is 1:47. What can we hear there?

16 [Videotape played].

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Now, did you clearly hear, in Serbian it was, and the dialect is

20 not one spoken in Serbia proper but I'm interested in the words, did you

21 hear them say, "Let somebody say that those are the people arrested -- are

22 taken prisoner there and there"?

23 A. Yes, I heard that, but I didn't hear any geographic location

24 mentioned.

25 Q. But you heard somebody say, "Those are the ones taken prisoner,"

Page 40703

1 et cetera?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And nowhere on the tape do we hear who they are or where they were

4 taken prisoner. You can just hear a voice saying, "Those are the ones

5 captured there," and --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, there's a part of that

7 question which was leading.

8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I have to observe the accused seems now

9 absolutely determined to take no notice of the warnings and instructions

10 that the Court is giving him, and I invite the Court to have in its mind,

11 maybe at the back of its mind, as I've said before, that if he really will

12 not obey with the orders of the Court, there is an assigned counsel who

13 can take over from him.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, it is clear that you are not

16 attending to the warnings being given by the Trial Chamber. You continue

17 to ask leading questions. I'm going to ask Ms. Higgins to be on standby

18 to conclude this re-examination.

19 I don't want to hear from Ms. Higgins now, but she will be on

20 standby if you continue in that way.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. General, were you able to conclude from what Mr. Nice said where

24 this crime took place, the one that was filmed, the killing of those six

25 young men?

Page 40704

1 A. If I remember correctly, judging by the indictment, the crime was

2 committed in the environs of Trnovo.

3 Q. All right. Fine. Now may we place on the overhead projector a

4 map. It is a Microsoft map. The author is Route eXpress European where

5 we can see the road running between Srebrenica and Trnovo. And it says

6 that the scale is 159.4 kilometres, or, rather, the distance. Take a look

7 at that, please, the distance 159.4 kilometres.

8 Srebrenica is at the beginning of the green line. Can you see

9 where it says Srebrenica?

10 A. Yes, I can.

11 Q. And can you see down at the bottom there, at the end of the road,

12 it says Trnovo?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So that road had to be a shorter road because you couldn't go

15 through Sarajevo, across Sarajevo, but below Sarajevo, but the distance is

16 150-odd kilometres. Can that be challenged at all? Is that in dispute at

17 all?

18 A. As far as I remember it, I think the distance would be right.

19 Q. Well, it says so. It says on the computer map. Srebrenica,

20 Trnovo, depart Srebrenica, end Trnovo, and the distance given is 159.4

21 kilometres. I don't think I need place that on the overhead projector.

22 Everybody can find it to look up on the Microsoft programme the Route

23 eXpress.

24 General -- well, we don't need the map any more. Thank you.

25 On the basis of what you were able to see, General, and what was

Page 40705

1 shown on the footage, is that undoubtedly a crime?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is what a crime?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The execution, the shooting. Is

4 that undoubtedly a crime?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not a question for this witness.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Now, General, on the footage did you see something that indicates

9 the time at which the crime was perpetrated?

10 A. I don't remember. I don't think I did.

11 Q. On the footage, were you able to see or conclude something that

12 would indicate who the victims were, where they came from, except for the

13 fact that we hear somebody say that somebody should say who they are and

14 where they were from?

15 A. No. I wasn't able to hear anything like that.

16 Q. And is there anything on the footage which would indicate where

17 those young men were executed, what place, what location?

18 A. I was not able to recognise anything from the footage we saw.

19 Q. And on the footage were you able to see anything that -- to show

20 that the perpetrators of the crime, as Mr. Nice claims, were the members

21 of the MUP of Serbia?

22 A. Nothing on the footage showed me that that thesis would be right.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Nice had a witness here. His name was Dejan

24 Anastacijevic, and he made a presentation. He showed us an article from

25 the newspaper Vreme of the 25th of December, 2003.

Page 40706

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just a minute, please.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. As we were saying, in the magazine Vreme, Dejan Anastacijevic, and

6 the issue was 677, that particular issue, he said that the commander of

7 the Skorpions, Slobodan Medic Boca, at the trial that was held in Serbia

8 against his co-fighters because of the crimes committed in 1999 in

9 Podujevo -- let me just take a moment here to find this. And this is how

10 he described - and I'm quoting from Vreme now - the formation. It was an

11 article on The Sting of a Skorpion. That was the title.

12 "Slobodan Medic Boca, commander of the Skorpions, said at the

13 trial about the history of his unit, although two statements on that same

14 subject tend to differ, that on the 28th -- on the 28th of March he stated

15 that the Skorpion unit was established already in 1991 within the

16 composition of the army of Yugoslavia," and in brackets it says "sic"

17 here, "sic."

18 Now, did the army of Yugoslavia exist in 1991 or was it the

19 Yugoslav People's Army at the time?

20 A. In 1991 what was in existence was the Yugoslav People's Army.

21 Q. Thank you. Then further down the article in Vreme, it says the

22 following: "Several months later, on the 5th of December, the commander

23 Boca gave the following answer to the same question. The Skorpion unit

24 was established in May 1992, he said, as security for the oil industry of

25 Krajina, and in that capacity it remained there from 1992 until 1996."

Page 40707

1 Now, this period of time from 1992 to 1996, does that cover the

2 period which Mr. Nice stipulated here as being the period of time of the

3 execution of these young men?

4 A. Of course it does cover that time, because we were talking of

5 1995. That was the year.

6 Q. Right. Now, from the footage were you able to establish when the

7 execution took place?

8 A. Not from the footing -- footage, no, but I said what the

9 Prosecutor -- what the Prosecutor had said.

10 Q. You, Mr. Stevanovic, at one point in time, and I made a note of

11 this, when asked by Mr. Nice, you said that -- do you challenge that they

12 were in Srebrenica? Does that mean that you don't challenge that they

13 were in Srebrenica or you don't challenge what the Prosecutor showed us?

14 A. I don't remember having said that. Maybe I said that I have no

15 reason to doubt that the people on the footage were in Srebrenica.

16 Perhaps that's what I said. But at this point in time, I really can't

17 say, and I can't give you a specific answer to the question because I'm

18 not quite clear about it.

19 Q. All right. Fine. Now, do you have a single piece of information

20 saying that they were in Srebrenica?

21 A. Of course I don't, no. Except what I heard from the Prosecutor.

22 Q. All right. I'm going to go on quoting that same article of Dejan

23 Anastacijevic, and it says the following: That they were established in

24 May 1992, and that in that capacity, they remained until 1992 -- from 1992

25 to 1996. Now, the next sentence is: "After that ..." after 1996 that

Page 40708

1 means, "... as I asked my unit to become -- be within the composition of

2 MUP of Serbia the Skorpions entered the reserve force of the special

3 anti-terrorist units of the MUP of Serbia."

4 Now, in the article here by Dejan Anastacijevic and from the trial

5 in Belgrade, can we see that their status, the status of these --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Stop, Mr. Milosevic, and reformulate.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. According to what is written here in this article in Vreme, when

10 it says that they were in that capacity of protecting the oil industry of

11 Krajina from 1992 until 1996, and then it says after that they became part

12 of the reserve force.

13 So what would be the earliest point when they could have become

14 part of the reserve force of the MUP of Serbia?

15 A. Well, the earliest point, and if I remember correctly, that

16 corresponds to those two documents that the Prosecutor showed yesterday,

17 that time could have been after the end of the war in Republika Srpska

18 Krajina and in Republika Srpska. That means after mid-1996, or after the

19 beginning of 1996. That would be the earliest point.

20 Q. All right. Now, I've read this out to you, and what can your

21 conclusion be? Who did these Skorpions belong to?

22 A. I already said very clearly that in 1995, in the autumn of 1995, I

23 knew that that unit belonged either to the army or police of Republika

24 Srpska Krajina. So all my knowledge, including what you quoted just now,

25 indicates what I already said. That unit belonged, and it's obvious by

Page 40709

1 the licence plates, to the army of Srpska Krajina, up to the end of the

2 war, that is up to 1996.

3 Q. All right. Now, I'm to quote to you a transcript of witness Milan

4 Milanovic who testified for Mr. Nice's side. Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff

5 conducted the examination. I'm just going to quote very briefly from

6 27431. That was the page. Q is question: "[In English] Just a very few

7 -- a final question in relation to the Skorpions. You have described the

8 Skorpions --" [interpretation] she's putting questions to Milanovic --

9 "[In English] being involved and sent to the Bihac region. When they were

10 in this region, to whom were they subordinated then?" Answer: "They were

11 subordinated to the command of the army of the Republic of Serbian

12 Krajina."

13 [Interpretation] Next quotation on transcript page 27432, again

14 Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff putting the question: "[In English] You also

15 mentioned the Skorpions being present in Trnovo in Bosnia in 1994."

16 [Interpretation] I'm going to skip a few lines, and then: "[In English]

17 When Skorpions were in Trnovo, to whom were they subordinated?" Answer:

18 "To the MUP of the Republika Srpska."

19 [Interpretation] Then further on: "[In English] You described the

20 deployment of Skorpions in Kosovo, and especially the first deployment

21 when you accompanied them a short way. At that time, was there a

22 mobilisation in Serbia under way?" Answer: "Yes. The Skorpions went to

23 Kosovo seven or eight days after the NATO bombing. And on the first day

24 of bombing, in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, a state of war was

25 proclaimed, which meant that the mobilisation was proclaimed and ongoing."

Page 40710












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13 English transcripts.













Page 40711

1 [Interpretation] Question: "[In English] And why did Medic call

2 you instead of just getting mobilised with the JNA -- or the VJ in this

3 case?" Answer: "Medic called me because he didn't want him and his men,

4 the men he knew from Slavonia, to go under the command of the army of

5 Yugoslavia. He wanted to go as part of MUP of Serbia."

6 [Interpretation] And then on page 27495, it says: "[In English]

7 He was returned from there following General Djordjevic's orders? He

8 demanded that he return?" Answer: "Yes. He was returned, but he went

9 back and stayed until the end of bombing raids."

10 [Interpretation] So what can be concluded on the basis of these

11 allegations in respect of the claim that in 1995 the Skorpions belonged to

12 the MUP of Serbia?

13 A. On the basis of the text quoted, it is obvious that what I already

14 stated is correct; that in 1995 the Skorpions did not belong to the MUP of

15 Serbia. It would not be logical for them to belong to the MUP of Serbia

16 if they indubitably belonged to the Republic of Srpska Krajina and they

17 went to the territory of Republika Srpska. It would be quite illogical.

18 Why would they change their affiliation? They could go there according to

19 the decision of their own command and then they could be subordinated to

20 the other command there. I don't see why the MUP of Serbia would have to

21 act as any kind of intermediary.

22 Q. On the basis of these quotations that you heard from me just now,

23 what can you conclude? Under whose command were they at the time and who

24 did they belong to?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that is not taking us any further.

Page 40712

1 We have the evidence before us and we will determine those matters.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. General, we showed now on the footage the licence plates of the

5 vehicle, what can be seen. Now, what can be seen on this film? Does it

6 correspond to what Milanovic said and what Medic himself said about who

7 they belonged to?

8 A. It was my understanding that it does correspond to what they said.

9 Q. All right. At the time of the crime from the footage that

10 Mr. Nice played, did the members of that unit belong to the MUP of

11 Serbia --

12 MR. NICE: Your Honour, again, I think this is conclusions and --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we're not being helped by that.

14 We have the evidence before us. These are questions of fact for the

15 Chamber to assess on the basis of the evidence.

16 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, lest there being any lingering

17 misapprehension, all the issues that the accused is raising which are

18 matters of detail on the film, parts of which -- almost all of which was

19 not displayed, of course the Prosecution is aware of them, they will be

20 available to be dealt with evidence in due course. I can outline them now

21 if he really wants me to, but I'm sure he doesn't, but it doesn't really

22 take the issue further at all to have partial answers on partial bits of

23 film which was produced for a different purpose, a purpose that in the

24 event is being secured another way by concessions and actions of the

25 authorities in Serbia, but that's another matter. These questions take us

Page 40713

1 no further.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next question, Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, what can be seen on

4 the film, as far as licence plates are concerned, and in terms of what

5 Milanovic testified here when being questioned by --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I've stopped you. Ask your next

7 question and avoid the comment.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. General, Medic claims, on the basis of what I quoted to you, that

10 members of the unit asked to become part of the reserve force after 1996.

11 Are you aware of any such case or would it be logical for someone who is

12 already within a unit as to belong to a particular army or police?

13 A. Of course if they're already part of the MUP, it would be

14 illogical for them to ask to become part of it.

15 Q. All right. And does the -- is the reserve force of the MUP joined

16 individually or collectively?

17 A. I've already said that very clearly: There is a chapter of the

18 law on the interior which regulates the admission of persons into the

19 police force. In accordance with these provisions, individuals as

20 military conscripts can be admitted into the police force, not a unit in

21 any situation. Of course, Medic could have submitted any kind of request,

22 including that kind of request too, to admit the entire unit, but in

23 accordance with the law, an entire unit could not be admitted. And

24 obviously this did not happen, because they became part of the reserve

25 force of an already existing unit. It is beyond dispute, since yesterday

Page 40714

1 we saw that they were there, but it is also beyond doubt that they were

2 within a special anti-terrorist unit of the MUP. They were recruited, and

3 they were deployed within an existing unit.

4 Q. And what was this existing unit?

5 A. The special anti-terrorist unit of the public security sector.

6 Q. All right. We established that. Now, tell us, what does it mean

7 to belong to the reserve force of the MUP?

8 A. The reserve force is practically an assignment on the basis of

9 military obligation in accordance with the law on military obligation.

10 Somebody can be assigned either to the reserve force of the army or the

11 reserve force of the police or in the civilian protection or simply does

12 not have a specific assignment. Of course, I'm talking about military

13 conscripts.

14 Q. All right. As far as military conscripts are concerned, is every

15 able-bodied person or, rather, may I correct myself, is every able-bodied

16 man in Serbia in some reserve force, either of the army or the police?

17 A. That's right. Most military conscripts are on some reserve force.

18 There are exceptions, when it can be said that somebody is without a

19 specific assignment.

20 Q. While following these proceedings, did you have the opportunity to

21 follow General Vasiljevic's testimony?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I'm just going to read a very brief excerpt from his testimony.

24 The page is 16003. "[In English] Question: Did the accused himself

25 contribute in any positive way, concrete way, on how the criminal problems

Page 40715

1 or the volunteer problems should be addressed?" Answer: "Except for what

2 I have said already, that drastic cases needed to be addressed, that this

3 Boca had to be handed over to the judicial organs," et cetera.

4 [Interpretation] Before that, before that, since he was mentioned

5 at that meeting, since Vasiljevic says that he had already mentioned the

6 context in which I referred to it, on page 16001 of his testimony, he says

7 that I said: "[In English]... that there was no reason to protect them."

8 [Interpretation] I put it another way. I said that there was no reason

9 to. "[In English] And secondly, he said that such drastic cases as were

10 mentioned have to be urgently sanctioned and dealt with and that the

11 so-called great Serbs acting in these ways and committing crimes were

12 inflicting great damage to everything that Yugoslavia," et cetera, et

13 cetera.

14 [Interpretation] Do you know that that pertained to a meeting held

15 with me and Vasiljevic, who testified here against me? He spoke about the

16 attitude towards the reports received at that time in Kosovo and Metohija.

17 A. Of course I don't know about that quotation, and I don't know

18 about that meeting. I can say something important, though. This kind of

19 description of an answer completely fits into the thesis that we saw two

20 or three times in my notebook. There are no private wars, that is.

21 Q. Do you know that members of that group, some members of that

22 group, in 1999, when they volunteered to join the ranks of the MUP, that

23 they carried out some crime?

24 A. I don't know. I don't remember the date when they were admitted,

25 but that is obviously on the documents that we saw yesterday. The crime

Page 40716

1 committed by the members of that group is contained in the documents here,

2 and I described it several times. This is a crime committed in Podujevo,

3 and some members of that unit killed 17 or 19 civilians, if I remember

4 correctly.

5 Q. Tell me now, General, were these persons arrested and were

6 criminal proceedings brought against them?

7 A. I also said that urgently the entire group was returned from

8 Kosovo after that. The investigating procedure was also urgent. Very

9 quickly the case was solved, a criminal report was filed, and after awhile

10 at least one perpetrator of that crime was arrested.

11 Q. Is this criminal report contained in our tab 152 that has to do

12 with your evidence here?

13 A. It is here, but let me just find it, please. Do I need to find

14 it?

15 Q. Just tell me, what can you infer on the basis of the membership of

16 these persons in MUP forces in 1999 from this criminal report?

17 A. I think it says very clearly that they are members of the reserve

18 force of the special anti-terrorist unit.

19 Q. All right. Let's not waste any time over that now.

20 A. It is quite clear. "Cvjetan Sasa and Demirovic Dejan, together

21 with a few perpetrators unknown, as members of the reserve force of the

22 SAJ." It is clearly stated on the first page of the criminal report.

23 Q. Do you know whether these persons before the war started were

24 engaged in any form, even in the reserve force of the MUP of Serbia?

25 A. No. I'm absolutely unaware of any such fact. Or, rather, I don't

Page 40717

1 know anything about this. I am sure that if they belonged to the

2 Skorpions from Eastern Slavonia, that they were not in the MUP of Serbia.

3 Q. All right. Now look at this document that Mr. Nice presented

4 yesterday. That is a letter sent to the head of the public security

5 sector, General Djordjevic. It says, "A report on the engagement of the

6 reserve force for the needs of special anti-terrorist units."

7 A. May I be allowed to see the document, please, if you want me to

8 comment on it?

9 Q. I hope you received it yesterday.

10 A. Yes, I did, but it was taken back.

11 Q. Unfortunately, I don't have the number. Mr. Nice presented the

12 document yesterday. It was a letter sent to or, rather, sent by the

13 commander of the special anti-terrorist unit to General Djordjevic.

14 MR. NICE: No documents have been marked at the moment because of

15 our position on production of documents.

16 JUDGE KWON: I handed over mine in B/C/S.

17 MR. NICE: Thank you.

18 JUDGE KWON: Is it the letter from Colonel Trajkovic?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have received that document. Yes.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, microphone for the accused.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I had the impression that the

22 microphone was switched on.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. But anyway, Colonel Trajkovic was the commander of the special

25 anti-terrorist unit; is that right?

Page 40718

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. At the beginning here, where it says "Subject" --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Well, what does it say? What is the subject?

5 A. "Report on the engagement of the reserve force for the

6 requirements of the SAJ."

7 Q. So it is a report on the engagement of the reserve force for the

8 requirements of the special anti-terrorist unit; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In paragraph 2, does it say that the SAJ needed to be reinforced

11 by a certain number of reservists? Is that what it says?

12 A. That is exactly what it says, yes.

13 Q. And then in paragraph 3, it says the following or, rather, can you

14 read out what it says, the first sentence. Or I can read it out: "With

15 agreement from the head of the public security sector and the staff of the

16 MUP of Pristina, 128 members of the reserve force were engaged who were

17 placed on the list of the reserve force of the special anti-terrorist

18 unit."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So is any mention made here about any unit called the Skorpions in

21 this letter? Any mention of the Skorpions there?

22 A. No. The name of the unit is not mentioned. In continuation, all

23 that is mentioned is Medic.

24 Q. Who brought them in the first place?

25 A. Yes.

Page 40719

1 Q. Now, the special anti-terrorist unit, was it an integral unit?

2 A. It was an independent autonomous unit within the public security

3 sector, of course integral with all the necessary structure and formation

4 and establishment components.

5 Q. On the basis of what it says here, it says: "... engaged 128

6 members of the reserve force from the list of the reserve force of the

7 special anti-terrorist unit." Now, from what it says there, these

8 reservists, were they engaged individually or as a unit?

9 A. It is clear that they were engaged individually. Even in this

10 text I can't see any mention of any different description of their

11 engagement.

12 Q. How, then, can you explain that in the second document that was

13 compiled in the year 2002 --

14 A. May I see the document, please?

15 Q. Well, it was handed over by Mr. Nice yesterday in a pair. Both

16 documents were supplied. And this dates back to the time when the event

17 took place, when individuals were engaged for the reserve force, as you've

18 just established. Now, how do you explain the 2002 document where mention

19 is made of the Skorpion unit?

20 JUDGE KWON: Is it 2002 or 2001?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 2002. The 11th of March 2002 is the

22 date.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to see the

24 document, if possible, please, because I haven't got it in front of me.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

Page 40720

1 MR. NICE: The draft translation omits the date of the 11th of

2 March 2002 and picks it up only with the other date further down, which

3 refers to the 17th of July 2001. If you look at the original --


5 MR. NICE: -- date.

6 JUDGE KWON: I've found it, yes.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: The one we have has the date the 17th of July.

8 JUDGE KWON: Report to the district court investigations

9 department.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have here a document of the 11th

11 of March, 2002. Perhaps this isn't such a good copy. Perhaps it should

12 be an 8 rather than a 3 for the month.

13 MR. NICE: This is the same document. It's clear that the

14 original document has the date 11th of March on it and that got omitted in

15 the draft translation, which was done in a great hurry, I know. It's also

16 clear that the date of the 17th of March is, it appears, the date of

17 something else. Whether it's the date of the letter of referral or the

18 date of the order or whatever it is, in the draft translation the word

19 "connection" is used, and so here we have a document of the 11th of March,

20 2002, as the accused says, apparently responsive to an earlier document of

21 the 17th of July 2001, and pending provision of a final translation, it

22 might be sensible if we hand wrote the addition of the date 11th of March

23 2002 onto the English version, and indeed the name -- the word "Belgrade."

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I heard somebody mention July. So

25 that's why I reacted and said that it said March in my copy. But I don't

Page 40721

1 know the document because I haven't received it.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. But my question is this for you, General, regarding this matter:

4 Since previously we went through the letter that the commander of the

5 special anti-terrorist unit sent to General Djordjevic, and it refers to

6 the engagement of the reservists, my question to you is this: As this

7 document is -- it says that "The department for struggling against

8 organised crime acted pursuant to your request for gathering information

9 as part of the investigation"; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Then it says here: "The accused Cvjetan Sasa and Demirovic Dejan,

12 in the course of March 1999, were members of the Skorpion unit." Now, I

13 would like you to clear up this point, the contradiction here, because in

14 the letter by the commander it says that 128 members of the reserve force,

15 who were brought in by Medic, were included, as you explained, into the

16 anti-terrorist unit, whereas here it says that they were members in 1999

17 of the Skorpion unit.

18 A. In my -- in answering yesterday's questions, I focused upon the

19 fact of whether people who were in the reserve force, whether they

20 belonged to that unit from the previous period and whether they were

21 indeed in Kosovo, and I of course agreed when I saw the documents which I

22 hadn't seen beforehand. Now I'm focusing my attention on what you've just

23 highlighted, and certainly an assertion of this kind quite simply is not

24 correct, cannot be correct, and it would not have been in conformity with

25 the law for a number of reasons. We have explained several of them when

Page 40722

1 we spoke about legal procedure and membership in the reserve force.

2 Now, the fact -- a key fact is that a second unit, another unit,

3 had not been established. A new unit, or the new unit, within the

4 frameworks of the ministry can be formed only if there are amendments to

5 the rules and regulations governing administration, and the reserve force

6 is included into the existing peacetime units, into their structure, and

7 that's what was done here.

8 And the third fact is this: Not a single unit within the

9 frameworks of the Ministry of the Interior never ever had an official

10 title of this kind written in inverted commas, that is just not possible.

11 So I cannot say here what the fact is or argument is on the basis of which

12 this text could have been formulated in this way.

13 Q. All right. Fine. But as far as I was able to understand, the

14 allegations in the letter of Colonel Trajkovic is something which is in

15 line with what you know about the whole matter; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, General, a group of reservists of the special anti-terrorist

18 unit arrived, as it says here. A number of those men committed a crime

19 and they were arrested. We reached that stage; right?

20 A. Yes. Right.

21 Q. Now, in that way, was the law acted upon, were the actions in

22 conformity with the law, or were there attempts made to cover up the

23 crime?

24 A. Absolutely not. There were no attempts to cover up the crime.

25 Every criminal report and investigation is a public matter and an arrest

Page 40723

1 is public. Everything that was done was done publicly and in conformity

2 with the law. Including what I have said here a number of times, that the

3 urgent return of this group of people for which it was -- there was

4 suspicions that they had taken part in a crime, they were returned from

5 Kosovo post haste.

6 Q. But the investigation further established who committed the crime

7 and that person or those persons were arrested; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Fine. Now, General --

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, could we receive some

11 information as to when this footage was taken, when the tape was filmed,

12 who taped, who took it, when Mr. -- when it came into Mr. Nice's

13 possession and so on, the tape shown by Mr. Nice. And is there a single

14 fact, and you saw the map where Trnovo is and where Srebrenica is, that

15 could link this up to Srebrenica in any way? Because I really would like

16 to ask the question -- the witness some questions in that regard.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

19 MR. NICE: I'm quite happy to provide a certain amount of

20 information, although the detailed information will come available in the

21 form of a witness statement which will probably initially be served

22 confidentially and the course of witness concerned is a protected person,

23 as he would have to be.

24 As to the source of the tape, no, I have no intention of providing

25 any information of that at the moment.

Page 40724

1 As to the identification of the tape by a witness, the

2 identification is by a witness who was present and who took a large part

3 of the video, who handed the machine on to the person who took the last

4 part of the video, and who is able to speak of the continuity of the tape

5 and of the fact that the tape records the killing of people brought from

6 Srebrenica in batches for killing.

7 That's the information I've got, and if the accused wants to know

8 it, that's what it amounts to.

9 As to the location, we've working on the basis that it's at

10 Trnovo, as displayed on the map, and I think that may be right, but in any

11 event, the location of the site can be established by the exhumation

12 process. We're just trying to get the precise grid reference right now.

13 The exhumation process that is part of the process whereby these young men

14 were capable of being identified by name, or some of them.

15 So that's in short order what I'm able to provide in answer to the

16 issues raised by the accused, but this --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: When will the witness statement be provided?

18 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, the position is to some degree

19 dependent on whether the video is itself produced as an exhibit at this

20 stage. If it isn't, I shall therefore have to make an application to have

21 it produced, which perhaps is what I forecast having to do, it will come

22 when the general application to add evidence of this type is before you,

23 which is in preparation at the moment.

24 The Court will have in mind no doubt, having seen the documents

25 produced in relation to the presence in this area and at this time of

Page 40725

1 troops or groups recorded in the documents as either MUP or Skorpions or

2 sometimes both, that those documents are also documents for which I might

3 be seeking leave to add material at this stage, and I want the whole thing

4 to be dealt with compendiously. Indeed, the Chamber may recall at an

5 earlier stage when I indicated or intimated that there would be an

6 application to reopen, I also intimated - and I think this is writing but

7 I'm not now quite sure - that the completion of that process would be

8 dependent on security arrangements being made for witnesses or a witness,

9 and that's the position in which we found ourselves until very recently

10 when I was able to deal with this tape.

11 So far as -- let me just look at the accused's questions, because

12 I think there may have been something else I wanted to help you with.

13 The -- as to -- I'm so sorry. As to linkage -- yes. As to

14 linkage to Srebrenica, there will, I think, be available to you material

15 from relations and the bereaved of one or more of those killed tying the

16 person to Srebrenica and identifying the body exhumed, and I understand

17 that indeed the relevant commission that's been dealing with exhumations

18 and that therefore took over this site once it was discovered that there

19 were bodies there, is in a position to confirm that the site is the Trnovo

20 near Sarajevo to which people were brought in in lorries because of the

21 need to kill people -- killing people is a huge exercise. It's not

22 something that -- killing and burying. They were taken away from

23 Srebrenica to distant locations, and here's one of them, and that's what

24 happened.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: 150 miles -- 150 kilometres.

Page 40726












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13 English transcripts.













Page 40727

1 MR. NICE: Yes. In the back of the lorry, arriving in the

2 condition we can see.

3 And I think the accused omitted to touch on this detail but indeed

4 one of the soldiers, I think kneeling beside one of the young men, mocks

5 him with the fact --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- arise whether the video, without more, without

7 any additional evidence, does it establish the proposition that you have

8 in mind?

9 MR. NICE: It may not. It may. It's a matter for -- there are,

10 of course -- there have, of course, been reactions and acknowledgements in

11 Serbia, which may -- by government sources, which may be of considerable

12 value.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, have these victims been identified?

14 MR. NICE: I think the position is that two were already

15 identified before the video was displayed at all. As you realise, it was

16 displayed in very short order here and much more extensively in Serbia,

17 but as a result of its being screened in Serbia, I think at least one more

18 was identified by relations seeing him.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: One issue that's been identified in the submission

20 by Mr. Milosevic is the link to Srebrenica, and what he's asking for is

21 what's the material so that he can, if appropriate, ask questions of this

22 witness. Now, you --

23 MR. NICE: The linkage will come in two ways; from a witness who

24 will deal with it directly and then indirectly, if necessary, by

25 indication of the people shown being killed and other evidence connecting

Page 40728

1 them to Srebrenica.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you -- if you receive permission to produce

3 that evidence. When you --

4 MR. NICE: Absolutely. Your Honour is quite right. Absolutely.

5 Of course. It's all contingent on that but this is clearly an issue of

6 importance and value and something that simply was never available to us

7 before, so we would anticipate making, if necessary, an application.

8 I had, of course, given thought to the question of whether the

9 whole video was capable of self-production, but there are various matters,

10 one or two of which -- to which the accused has referred that make that

11 less rather than more possible. For example, the number plates issue. Of

12 course it's a matter we've addressed and it's dealt with evidentially and

13 indeed it's explained, the same way as may be evidence about the change of

14 patches as things cross borders, but that will have to be matter of

15 evidence, I suspect, in some stage and in some setting.

16 I think -- let me just have a look at the accused's questions

17 again. That probably is as far as I should and can go in answer to these

18 questions at this stage. But Your Honours, we've had very much in mind

19 the desirability from the Chamber's point of view of having applications

20 either for reopening or for rebuttal dealt with in collections, or

21 preferably in a single application, because it must be more convenient for

22 the Court, for the assigned counsel, and for the accused, and we are

23 working energetically on getting the material together so that you can

24 have a single application very soon.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Ms. Higgins.

Page 40729

1 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, very briefly. The problem with the

2 video from the start, as was identified by Mr. Kay, was that there was no

3 foundational basis laid. I don't wish to address you in detail on that,

4 but the issues relating to who were the victims, who were the

5 perpetrators, where this was exactly, and when, have only been put forward

6 as assertions by Mr. Nice and there is no evidence before the Trial

7 Chamber to deal with it.

8 Dealing with the request made by Mr. Milosevic, it's my submission

9 that he is entitled to know the foundation and the material that is within

10 the Prosecution's possession and to be given that material immediately, as

11 soon as possible. If there is a witness statement in the hands of the

12 Prosecution, then that should be turned over.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just -- you're saying that if he has a witness

15 statement, it should be turned over to Mr. Milosevic.

16 MS. HIGGINS: It should be disclosed to Mr. Milosevic and the

17 parties, yes, Your Honour, along with any other foundational material

18 which will, I assume, be relied on in due course by the Prosecution to

19 attempt to exhibit the material.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: And if he -- if he doesn't attempt to exhibit it?

21 MS. HIGGINS: Well, there's an argument that one is entitled to

22 know the foundations upon which the assertion is made.

23 JUDGE KWON: Or 66(B).

24 MS. HIGGINS: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: So he has a disclosure obligation.

Page 40730

1 MS. HIGGINS: Yes, that's right.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Under 66 --

3 MS. HIGGINS: If I may just consult the Rules. I don't have them

4 just before me.

5 Your Honour, if you have 66(B) in front of you, it relates to

6 material for the preparation of the Defence or intended for use by the

7 Prosecutor as evidence at trial, and the issue of non-disclosure previous

8 to the showing of the video was raised by Mr. Kay. The word being

9 "material" as opposed to evidence having been exhibited.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: So that even if he's not successful in an

11 application to introduce this by way of additional evidence or in

12 rebuttal, your submission is that he has an obligation under 66(B) --

13 MS. HIGGINS: Yes.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- to disclose it.

15 MS. HIGGINS: Yes. Because it's material to the preparation. It

16 may be material to the preparation of the Defence and allow Mr. Milosevic

17 to actually deal with what is being put forward in a very brief form at

18 the moment. It's very difficult to deal with something when one isn't

19 aware, apart from assertion, as to where it comes from and what it

20 actually is.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, anything on 66(B)?

24 MR. NICE: Not particularly, no. I mean, if I could --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

Page 40731

1 MR. NICE: Not particularly. I mean, the suggestion that if the

2 accused makes a request he's entitled to have anything material to the

3 preparation of his Defence means that we have to assess whether this is

4 material to his Defence, but I suspect that probably --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I mean, it is -- that is, Mr. Nice --

6 MR. NICE: Yes.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is evident.

8 MR. NICE: That can be short-circuited, in any event, because I

9 think we're either at or nearly at the time when the witness statements or

10 draft witness statements can be handed over. However, they might require

11 orders of protection from the Court.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a different matter. That's a different

13 matter.

14 MR. NICE: And so --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: The view which we take is that Ms. Higgins is

16 right in her submission that you have a disclosure obligation under 66(B)

17 in relation to material relating to the tape.

18 MR. NICE: Yes, when he makes a request.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he has made a request.

20 MR. NICE: As he has made. I agree.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: He has made a request.

22 MR. NICE: But only today. And indeed, I mean, it is important to

23 have in mind the narrow purpose and manner in which I introduced the

24 material, even if the purpose that I introduced it for has been

25 short-circuited by reactions elsewhere.

Page 40732

1 But, Your Honours, what I can do, and I don't think it will take

2 me any time at all, is check on whether there are any outstanding issues,

3 and I don't believe there are, that inhibit the production of either full

4 or certainly redacted statements at this stage, subject to any questions

5 of protection for which I will seek the Court's assistance if necessary.

6 That can be done. But it can't be done literally now.

7 There is also other material, and I am obliged to one of my

8 colleagues for confirming this in answer to one of the accused's

9 questions. Two -- oh, His Honour Judge Bonomy's question as well, I

10 think. Two of the identifications are by DNA analysis, and that material

11 will have to be available. Whether it's immediately available to us or

12 not I'm not sure. And as I already indicated, certainly one the witness

13 statements is only a draft at the moment, but that is probably a

14 technicality. Otherwise, I don't have any particular problem with the

15 request.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, we take account of the fact that the

17 accused has only made his request for this material today.

18 MR. NICE: Yes.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: But we would expect you, in fact we would require

20 you to report to the Chamber on the next sitting day, which is Wednesday

21 of next week, on that matter.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'll try and do better than that, and if

23 there is no impediment, I'll hand the material over today or tomorrow.

24 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honours, just very briefly. In terms of the

25 identity of the witness statement maker, as I understand it, Mr. Nice

Page 40733

1 would have to apply for protective measures, otherwise Mr. Milosevic is

2 entitled to know the identity of the maker of the statement, surely, in

3 accordance with the Rules.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I think he indicated that he would.

5 MR. NICE: On that topic, of course, the position with sensitive

6 witnesses in the course of the Prosecution's case was that there was a

7 shortened period when the full details had to be made available to the

8 accused, and until that time, until that triggered time started, then he

9 was not entitled to those details for certain categories of witnesses. We

10 haven't encountered this particular procedural issue in the course of the

11 Defence case thus far. We may have to look and see whether the same rules

12 would apply, assuming, if it be the case, that I find there are security

13 issues relating to witnesses or potential witnesses that require

14 protection. I'll deal with all that immediately.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.

16 Mr. Milosevic.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I would like to draw

18 your attention first of all to what Mr. Nice said a few minutes ago. You

19 can see it in the transcript. I wrote it down properly. He said,

20 verbatim, that the link between what he showed will be established.

21 Please bear that in mind. Is that an appropriate way to act? On all

22 world TV stations and Serb TV stations, it has been said time and again

23 that this is footage from Srebrenica. And Mr. Nice says now that he is

24 yet to establish the link showing that this has to do with Srebrenica.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, whether he establishes the linkage

Page 40734

1 or not is a matter for the Chamber. We have no concern with the public's

2 perception of the matter. Ultimately we will examine all the evidence

3 before us and come to a conclusion as to the worth, the value of the -- of

4 the tape.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, but he said, he spoke

6 in the future that he has yet to establish this linkage. I assume that if

7 he is asserting something, he has to prove that there is this kind of

8 linkage, and it is only then that he can work on that basis, not for him

9 to play footage here that has nothing to do with Srebrenica whatsoever.

10 And you saw that it is 150 or, rather, 160 kilometres away from

11 Srebrenica, and then he promises that he has yet to establish by way of a

12 witness linkage between that footage and what happened in Srebrenica. And

13 on the footage you do not even have the actual place where it was filmed

14 and the time when it was filmed. I do not understand this kind of

15 handling of evidence at all.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, those are matters for us. We will

17 determine -- we haven't made any determination as to the production of the

18 tape as an exhibit.

19 We have another three or four minutes, four minutes.

20 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, whatever passage of my observations

21 the accused wrote down, I made it quite clear the material to make the

22 linkage is indeed already with us.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we have another three, four

24 minutes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. I just wish to have one

Page 40735

1 more thing clarified for me. A few moments ago, Mr. Nice claimed that the

2 prisoners from Srebrenica were driven to Trnovo so that they would be

3 killed there. Can you give me information from Mr. Nice how, within some

4 kind of operation, prisoners were transported to Trnovo? Can he do that

5 through you?

6 Secondly, he claimed that the persons who carried out this

7 execution, which is indubitably a crime, were from Serbia. In the

8 documents and the statement of this witness you saw that it has nothing to

9 do with Serbia, that these are not persons from Serbia.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, as I said, those are all matters

11 which the Chamber will have to determine on the basis of all the evidence

12 before it.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I see the

14 time. It looks, extraordinarily, as though the re-examination of this

15 witness is not going to finish today. If that's the case, I have a small

16 administrative matter I'd like to mention relating to the next witness.

17 It can only take 30 seconds but I'd better do it before the magical hour

18 of 2.43 [sic].

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, do it now.

20 MR. NICE: And it's this -- it's this, Your Honour --

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just need five seconds, five

22 seconds for yet another request. Because you entrusted Mr. Nice with

23 providing certain information on the following working days, since you're

24 talking about technical matters in relation to this highly suspicious

25 tape, as far as I'm concerned. What is said in the footage where

Page 40736

1 obviously there has been some deletion? You saw part of the film where it

2 says it should be read out who they are and where they were taken

3 prisoner, and then part of the sound is deleted. I'm sure that Mr. Nice

4 has the appropriate technical facilities, because you can only hear

5 mumbling like when the voice of a protected witness is scrambled here, in

6 order to hear what is said in that footage. I have the right to hear that

7 and I have the right to know why this was deleted and why it was

8 scrambled.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, the accused says that there is a

10 portion of the tape that was deleted.

11 MR. NICE: He has a transcript --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

13 MR. NICE: He has the transcript in English and B/C/S exactly the

14 same that we have and that is, as I understand it, complete in all

15 available particulars. I -- we've arranged -- I certainly remember

16 arranging to have every word transcribed, and he's got everything that

17 we've got.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: He says you have everything, everything was

19 played.

20 MR. NICE: Not everything was played.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not everything was played, but nothing was

22 deleted --

23 MR. NICE: No, nothing was deleted.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- in relation to what was played. Nothing was

25 deleted from the transcript.

Page 40737

1 MR. NICE: Nothing was deleted from the transcript, and we have

2 the copy or whatever it is of the video identified by a witness or a

3 potential witness. The video comes in, the soundtrack is described, and

4 as I understand it, it's not -- it's not of a quality on which we can

5 engineer improvements.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: So that's your answer, Mr. Milosevic.

7 What's the administrative matter?

8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the next witness is a witness for whom we

9 were expecting to start today. I prepared or had prepared for him two

10 binders of materials. They would have served the purpose of a voir dire

11 had there been one. They will also serve the purpose of

12 cross-examination, and their pre-reading by the Chamber might save time.

13 If the Chamber feels it might be disposed to pre-read the material, then

14 I'm obviously content that the accused should have the material as well,

15 and Ms. Higgins and anybody else within the Chamber. However, the

16 material includes redacted witness statements that have to be redacted for

17 reasons of security, and were the accused to have the advantage ahead of

18 the witness coming in, which will now be next Wednesday - at least I hope

19 it's Wednesday and not Thursday - of the witness coming in on Wednesday, I

20 would ask that it be on terms that he doesn't himself copy the material

21 any further, because redacted materials are always vulnerable to inquiries

22 of kinds that can uncover identifications and I would be very concerned

23 that that might happen.

24 So in two stages; if the Chamber thinks it might be helped by

25 having the materials in advance as a time-saving exercise, I'm happy for

Page 40738

1 the accused to have them, but may he be instructed not further to copy the

2 materials in any way, and we can decide what, if any, further protection

3 needs to be attached to individual bits of those materials next week.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic -- Ms. Higgins.

6 MS. HIGGINS: Just very briefly, Your Honour. I was given a copy

7 of the materials earlier on today, and they are a significant bundle which

8 in this instance may be of use indeed to Mr. Milosevic to have been able

9 to pre-read the materials and to keep them, and also for Defence counsel.

10 I don't know whether Mr. Nice also intends to give them for pre-reading to

11 the witness, but it's certainly material that I wouldn't wish to be

12 withdrawn from us, it being very useful to have and a time-saving device

13 as well as fair.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Higgins.

15 Mr. Milosevic, you may have the material --

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may have the material, but the material is

18 not to be reproduced or copied.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have fully understood this,

20 Mr. Robinson. As you know, I never abused anything, any of the material I

21 received over these three years and even more.

22 But let me go back to my request. This is a misunderstanding. I

23 did not talk about any deletions in the transcript. I talked about the

24 videotape or, rather, the CD, the video footage, that there is a section

25 where the words were scrambled and also part of the soundtrack was

Page 40739

1 deleted. Of course then that is not in the transcript. I'm seeking

2 explanation with regard to these defects in addition to all the other

3 defects of the videotape where it cannot be seen who, when, where, or

4 anything else for that matter. Certainly what was deleted from the

5 soundtrack cannot be in the transcript.

6 MR. NICE: Nothing to add to what I've already said. We've got

7 what we've got. We've got evidence about it and the accused got what

8 we've got. If I do make material available to the accused before next

9 Wednesday, unless the Court orders me otherwise, I --

10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, is it not for the reasons of some secretive

11 reasons or just protection of somebody or --

12 MR. NICE: Not to my knowledge but I'll check on it. But this:

13 If I do make it available to the accused, unless ordered otherwise, I will

14 also make it available to the Chamber.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The material may be handed over to the

17 accused on the terms that you indicated.

18 MR. NICE: Certainly. But I say I'd also make it available to the

19 Chamber in advance of next Wednesday unless the Chamber tells me it

20 doesn't want it.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I think they are here already.

22 JUDGE KWON: And then your terms do not prohibit his associates to

23 take a look at --

24 MR. NICE: No, they can look at it, of course, but this is witness

25 statements and other material providing links to Srebrenica and things of

Page 40740

1 that sort.


3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber has the material at hand, Mr. Nice.

4 We are past the time for adjournment. We will adjourn until

5 Wednesday of next week.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of

8 June, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.