1 Wednesday, 15 June 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.
7 MR. NICE: The material sought by the accused last week in respect
8 of the video was provided on Friday, directly handed to his associates, as
9 I understand it. One statement has been provided in redacted form, and
10 although not strictly necessary at this stage or anything like, for
11 completeness and tidiness, an application for protective measures in
12 respect of that witness on a confidential basis with appropriate ex parte
13 attachments is already before the Court, and obviously any interrogation
14 aimed at uncovering the identity of the witness whose statement has been
15 redacted would be entirely inappropriate and improper.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Nice.
17 Mr. Milosevic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As Mr. Nice has just said, they
19 provided a number of documents, alleged documents. They were provided to
20 us as statements. Let me repeat this: As Mr. Nice has said, they
21 provided a number of documents, the alleged documents, which were supposed
22 to be statements of some persons and supporting material that goes along
23 with the videotapes.
24 First, gentlemen, I would like to ask you the following: I have a
25 statement of a witness here who was on the list of witnesses of Mr. Nice
1 and was not called to testify. I suppose that he's a protected witness as
2 well, even though the name can be seen clearly, whereas the other name has
3 been redacted and cannot be seen. Based on reading this material, I
4 concluded that the credibility of these witnesses is zero. So do you
5 think that if Mr. Nice is going to use these witnesses he needs to bring
6 them here in order for them to be cross-examined or not?
7 MR. NICE: Your Honours --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And do you --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let me hear Mr. Nice.
10 MR. NICE: May I alert the Court to what is likely to be the
11 accused's intentions today, which will be for another audience to try and
12 introduce judgements about this material. Can I invite the Chamber to
13 confine him to public observations that are appropriate to what he's
15 He has been provided with material because he asked for it. That
16 material may or may not feature in due course, depending on what
17 applications are made and what applications may or may not be granted. At
18 the moment, the document, that is the tape, to the limited extent it was
19 played in this Court is before the Court. Some questions were asked about
20 identification of individuals of this witness who had indicated a
21 willingness to assist. He hasn't yet technically answered those questions
22 and we know that events have rather overtaken this Court in Belgrade, but
23 that's another matter. But I would press the Chamber to recognise that
24 this accused is likely to be using opportunities here to try and advance a
25 case about this video for reasons other than the proper re-examination of
1 this witness.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, proceed with your re-examination.
3 MR. NICE: And one detail: If the accused is referring to
4 document 32 as a statement of a named individual, I understand there are
5 no restraints on him naming that person, but there would have to be some
6 purpose and reason for his doing so in re-examination, a different issue,
7 but that person does not seek any form of protection as I am advised.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that would be a matter for the Chamber.
9 Mr. Milosevic, let us proceed.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If Mr. Nice said that this witness
11 whose name is indicated here is not a protected witness, then I
12 misunderstood the case. I thought that this was a protected witness.
13 This witness was on the list of Mr. Nice's witnesses. However, he was not
14 called to testify. Now Mr. Nice wants to bring him here to testify in
15 relation to the testimony of General Obradovic.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you asked for some material. It
17 has been provided. Move ahead with your re-examination. I'm sick and
18 tired of this. I'm not having any more of it.
19 MR. NICE: If I can assist with the history. The accused is right
20 that the witness was listed, and I think was at the time listed as a
21 protected witness. He is one of the witnesses whose evidence was not
22 reached at the time when the Prosecution's case was brought to early end
23 in circumstances related to the late Judge May's health.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Re-examine if you intend to. If not, we'll
25 conclude the witness's testimony.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly. I do intend to continue
2 with examination.
3 WITNESS: OBRAD STEVANOVIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]
6 Q. So this witness who Mr. Nice says is no longer under protective
7 measures is called Goran Stoparic. In the very beginning let me say,
8 General, I received only the English text. Very sorry, General, but I
9 will have to quote from the English text. In item 4, it says: "[In
10 English] In May 1991, after the events in Borovo Selo in which I did not
11 participate, an office was opened at local community centre in Sid. This
12 office was called TO of SBWS (Slavonia, Baranja, Western Srem.)"
13 [Interpretation] Therefore, General, what TO does this refer to,
14 based on what I have just read?
15 A. Based on the first part of that quotation, I understood that this
16 was the TO of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
17 Q. At that time --
18 A. It was the region.
19 Q. Yes, that's right, the region. And in the following passage -- in
20 the previous one they mentioned the Serbian Radical Party, and in the
21 following passage they mention dukes or vojvodas of the Serbian Radical
22 Party and go on to say that each of them had 500 volunteers under their
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, where is this leading?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I intend to ask the general, as it
1 is widely known that the Serbian Radical Party had no units of its own
2 but, rather, sent volunteers to the JNA and to the army of Republika
3 Srpska and Republic of Serbian Krajina. In addition to that, Vojislav
4 Seselj is on the list of my witnesses and he will testify about that.
5 MR. NICE: Observations like something "is widely known," either
6 accidentally or intentionally are designed to assist the witness. The
7 question now having no value, might the accused be required to move on.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, move on.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Do you know, General, that -- are you aware, General, that the
12 Serbian Radical Party had any units of its own?
13 A. I'm not aware of that. I know that there was some people who
14 represented themselves as members of that party and who volunteered and
15 went to volunteer in the units of Republika Srpska and Republic of Serbian
17 Q. All right. Let's be as brief as possible. All I'm -- the only
18 reason I'm bringing this up is that I want to show exactly what type of a
19 witness this is. I will read count 99 now, or paragraph 99 now --
20 MR. NICE: Your Honours, this is not an appropriate re-examination
21 of the evidence that -- of the material that's before you and of the
22 evidence in the form of answers of this witness to that material. This is
23 designed for another purpose, and if the accused wants the opportunity of
24 examining these witnesses subject to applications, he may have it, but now
25 is not the time for him to be engaging in this sort of question and
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I agree fully. Move on, Mr. Milosevic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I will just briefly
4 cover paragraph 99 of the statement of this witness.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. As you can see, there are many paragraphs, and paragraph 99 reads
7 as follows: "Boca has told me that there are plans to occupy or to take
8 Sarajevo. However, that was not the goal of our operation in Sarajevo.
9 The goal was to attack the city in order to create an impression that it
10 is our intension to take Sarajevo so that the enemy would --"
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you're making statements. What is
12 the question and what is the purpose of the question? This is
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The purpose of the question is --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: And how does it arise?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This question arises from the fact
17 that the notorious Boca is mentioned here. It is also stated that this
18 man was allegedly a member of the Skorpion unit, Skorpions unit, and here
19 he explains the strategy, either as he sees it or as they were told about
20 what they were doing near Sarajevo. And then he goes on to say: "The
21 elite unit of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were withdrawn --"
22 JUDGE BONOMY: This witness cannot deal with that. He's made it
23 clear he doesn't know Boca in his earlier answers, and you're simply
24 reading things out here under the guise of asking questions which are
25 wholly inappropriate at this stage.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since he doesn't know him and since
2 this witness was surprised to hear that this footage was allowed in during
3 his cross-examination, which is what surprised me as well, why, then,
4 wouldn't I be allowed to put questions to him about the matters brought up
5 by Mr. Nice? That's what I would like to know. However, if you disallow,
6 then I will discontinue this line of questioning and I will turn to
7 something else.
8 This witness here is apparently protected because I can see that
9 the name has been redacted. We can't see the first name or the last name.
10 And on page 12 of the statement --
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that we do not have the
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So on page 12 it is stated,
14 pertaining to the incident, the following: "[In English] I learned about
15 this incident because I was given a copy of the videotape showed during
16 the killings --" no, no, "during the killing."
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the question for the witness?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me please complete quoting two
19 sentences. I can understand that you're impatient, Mr. Robinson.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: I want to make it clear that I am not prepared -- I
21 personally am not prepared to listen to this. This is a wholly
22 inappropriate way of proceeding and I dissent from any indication that my
23 colleagues might give that this is appropriate.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me hear the question, Mr. Milosevic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, this man says: "I
1 learned about this incident because I was given a copy --"
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the question for the witness?
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. General, can somebody testify about a tape on the basis of having
5 seen its copy?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: A nonsensical question. Move on to another area,
7 otherwise I'll terminate the re-examination immediately.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, Mr. Nice said that
9 this material proves the authenticity of the videotape, whereas the
10 witness says that he confirms the authenticity because he himself made a
11 copy. My associate, Professor Rakic, has also made a copy. How can
12 making a copy in itself --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, if you do not have appropriate
14 questions to put to the witness, I'm going to stop the re-examination. It
15 has gone on long enough in any event.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. In that case, I will
17 refrain from asking any questions about the material provided by Mr. Nice
18 as some kind of a supporting material that supports something that he
19 claims in relation to this tape. However, there is one piece of paper --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me make it quite clear: You can ask
21 questions in relation to matters that arise, but they must be appropriate
22 questions. You have not been putting appropriate questions to the
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it is
25 inappropriate to ask this of a witness who is a police general, namely I'm
1 asking him whether somebody can confirm the authenticity of a tape on the
2 basis of having made a copy.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... utterly
4 nonsensical, and you know it.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I received a document,
6 and unfortunately I cannot identify the number. However, it's 03653059,
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, a letter. The
8 cantonal court to the cantonal judge personally, Mr. Bazdarevic. This is
9 also something that I received within this material. It is a letter by
10 Amor Masovic, who is the president of a commission. I will ask that this
11 be shown, because this relates to the DNA analysis. I have only one copy
12 that I received through my associates from Mr. Nice. I will ask that this
13 be placed on the ELMO, including the English translation as well as the
14 text in Serbian. I assume that the English translation was made by you.
15 I will ask the witness to read this out.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Before you read this, Mr. Stevanovic, could you please answer a
18 question for me. When did this occur in Srebrenica roughly, very roughly;
19 year, month?
20 A. Summer of 1995.
21 Q. Summer of 1995. This is a letter of this president and
22 vice-president of the commission sent to the cantonal court. See what it
24 A. "The 28th of April, 1993, at Godinjske Bare, municipality of
25 Trnovo, in the smaller BH entity an investigation was carried out
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 collecting the bodily remains of five N.N. victims.
2 "The DNA analysis of the skeletal remains established that the
3 bodily remains of at least one victim belonged to Fejzic (Sakib) Safet,
4 born in 1978 in the village of Mosici, municipality of Srebrenica. He has
5 been recorded as a person who went missing on the 11th of July, 1995, in
7 Q. All right. That will do. He was recorded as being missing on the
8 11th of July. And could you read out from the beginning when were his
9 bodily remains exhumed after the word --
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, General. Do we have an English
11 translation? Why don't you put it on the ELMO and let the witness read
12 the B/C/S version.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness read the version in
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. But yet again, he was recorded as missing, this man allegedly from
18 A. The 11th of July, 1995.
19 Q. When was he exhumed?
20 A. On the 28th of April, 1993. Obviously it's not logical.
21 Q. Fine. Thank you. No further questions with regard to that. You
22 can put that document away. So he was exhumed two years before he was
23 reported to be missing. That's what it says in this document in the
24 original and in the English language. Is that what it says, General?
25 A. Yes, that's precisely what it says.
1 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell me whether you know and
2 generally what was known about some of the perpetrators of executions in
3 Srebrenica. Do you know whether any one of them were arrested in Serbia
4 in some period of time?
5 A. The only thing I know is that in the Republic of Serbia, Drazen
6 Erdemovic was arrested, suspected of having participated in the crimes in
7 Srebrenica in 1995.
8 Q. Very well. I have a criminal report here that our authorities
9 filed against Drazen Erdemovic. So could it please be placed on the ELMO,
10 and could you please read what it says.
11 A. This is a criminal report filed by the Ministry of the Interior,
12 the centre of the state security sector in Novi Sad on the 6th of March,
13 1996. "On the basis of article 151, paragraph 6, of the law on criminal
14 procedure, the following criminal report is filed against Erdemovic,
15 father's name Viktor, Drazen, born on the 25th of November, 1971, in the
16 village of Donja Dragunja."
17 Q. All right. You can skip that. Oh, never mind. Read it.
18 A. "Municipality of Tuzla, the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, ethnicity
19 Croat, married, father of one child, professional locksmith, unemployed,
20 residence in Bijeljina, the street Radojko Lakic number 144, who has been
21 detained since the 3rd of March, 1996, since 2200 hours."
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed, General.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Because of the well-founded
1 suspicion that on the 20th of July, 1995, in the village of Pilica on the
2 road between Zvornik and Bijeljina as a member of the 10th Sabotage
3 Detachment of the army of Republika Srpska, as part of the armed conflict
4 in the territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, together with seven
5 members of the army Republika Srpska, he murdered civilian population in
6 the period between 1030 to 1600 hours, then 1.200 citizens of Muslim
7 ethnicity by using firearms. They were previously brought in on buses to
8 the execution site, and the reported person personally killed about 100
9 unidentified persons, shooting from an automatic rifle, M-70, and in this
10 way he committed a crime, a war crime against civilian population as
11 contained in Article 142 of the criminal law of Yugoslavia."
12 Q. Can we see who these other people are who committed this crime
13 together with him?
14 A. "On the 20th of July, 1995, the reported person in the morning
15 hours, as a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment of the army of
16 Republika Srpska on orders of his commander, Milorad Pelemis, together
17 with seven members of the army of Republika Srpska, Gojkovic Brano,
18 Stevanovic Stanko, Grolija Zoran [phoen], Goljanin Vlastimir, Voskic
19 Marko, Kos Franc and Cvetkovic Aleksandar, travelled to Zvornik in a konbi
20 van and reported to a lieutenant colonel of the military police of the
21 army of Republika Srpska who they did not know."
22 Q. And so on and so forth.
23 A. And so on and so forth.
24 Q. Do you know -- or, rather, you did know that Erdemovic was
25 arrested on the basis of a criminal report of our authorities. And you
1 read out the date; that was the 26th of March, 1996.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I think we can see from these documents that practically he was
4 arrested only a few days after setting foot on the soil of our republic.
5 A. As far as I know, very shortly after arriving in the territory of
6 Republic of Serbia he was arrested, as can be seen from this criminal
8 Q. All right. How was he handed over? How was he tried before the
9 Tribunal here?
10 A. I just know that he was handed over from Serbia as a foreign
11 citizen. As far as I know, he was extradited because he himself asked for
13 Q. He was handed over to the Tribunal as a foreign citizen and at his
14 own request. That is your knowledge?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know that here during his trial he admitted everything that
17 is contained in the criminal report of our authorities?
18 A. I'm not aware of any details but I know that he confessed and that
19 he was convicted.
20 Q. Do you know about the crimes you mentioned or, rather, that you
21 read out here from this report? What is the punishment envisaged in the
22 law of Serbia?
23 A. Death sentence.
24 Q. And what was his sentence here?
25 A. Four or five years in prison. I'm not sure.
1 Q. Do you know that he was set free after four years?
2 A. Yes, I know that he was set free.
3 Q. As for these documents that we've seen over all these days, all
4 these documents that have to do with the Skorpion unit, could we see any
5 link between the authorities of Serbia or the police of Serbia with that
7 A. I said several times that at that time that unit had nothing to do
8 with the Republic of Serbia.
9 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... stop the last line
10 of questioning but it's entirely irrelevant and this is speculative,
11 irrelevant, and the answers aren't going to help you at all.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Ask another question.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. General, in this criminal report is there any mention of the 10th
15 Sabotage Detachment?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know whether our police or our security organs later
18 arrested any of the members of this 10th Sabotage Detachment on our
20 A. Well, I know - that's the only thing I know - that during 1999, in
21 the Republic of Serbia, a few persons were arrested who belonged to the
22 so-called group Pauk, Spider. Some of those members, perhaps even all of
23 them, I'm not sure, belonged at some point in time to this 10th Sabotage
25 Q. All right. At some point in time. General, do you know whether
1 after Srebrenica the members of this 10th Sabotage Detachment were sent
2 abroad for some kind of intervention?
3 A. Yes, I know about that. Some of them went to Zaire as
4 mercenaries, and there was a lot of footage shown about that on
6 Q. All right. During the NATO aggression in 1999, do you know
7 whether our authorities in Serbia informed the public about having
8 arrested them and that they were linked to the killings in Srebrenica?
9 A. I know that immediately after their arrest the public in Serbia
10 was informed very quickly about the arrest of that group and the reasons
11 for their arrest.
12 Q. Well, what I have here is a photocopy of the Politika daily
13 newspaper dated the 12th of February. Now, is it the 12th of February or
14 not? I can't really see properly. But the year is 2000, that's for sure.
15 It is certainly the year 2000.
16 The federal minister of information, Goran Matic, had a press
17 conference, and we can see that in several newspapers. Yes, it's the 14th
18 of February. It's pretty obvious in one of these newspapers. I'm just
19 going to read out one sentence to you. I'm going to ask you to look at
20 some of this.
21 The federal minister of information, in relation to the arrest of
22 that group of the 10th Sabotage Detachment that is mentioned in the
23 criminal report against Erdemovic who was tried here says: "Resolving the
24 case of the crime in Srebrenica is our debt to the truth." That's what
25 Matic says. And then he explains about this group, which included Serbs,
1 Croats, Muslims, Slovenes, mercenaries who were murderers, manipulated by
2 a foreign intelligence service.
3 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... unless of course
4 the accused is trying to advance at this stage, and given that he's not
5 going to give evidence, some account of his acknowledgement of Srebrenica
6 and what he did. If he wants to do that --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us not anticipate.
8 MR. NICE: -- another time.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's hear the question, Mr. Nice -- I mean
10 Mr. Milosevic, let's hear the question.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please place this on the
12 overhead projector. I have a few press clippings of this press
13 conference. The 14th of February, 2000, is the date. Goran Matic, our
14 federal minister for information.
15 I don't have two copies, unfortunately, but you can quote the
16 basic --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
18 Mr. Milosevic? You've already quoted the passage. What is the question?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. General, Goran Matic is federal minister. On behalf of the
22 authorities, he has a press conference.
23 A. Yes, I know.
24 Q. Does he say there that it is our debt to the truth to find out
25 what actually happened in Srebrenica?
1 A. Yes, what you quoted means that precisely.
2 Q. At that press conference, does he disclose the facts, namely that
3 members of the 10th detachment -- 10th Sabotage Detachment are under
4 arrest, those who are mentioned in the Erdemovic criminal report?
5 A. Yes, that is what he said.
6 Q. So twice, once as regards Erdemovic and the other time as regards
7 the other members of that detachment.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was there any knowledge about anyone else at that time that he --
10 he or she participated in Srebrenica?
11 A. No. There was no knowledge then, and had there been any
12 knowledge, there would have been other arrests and we would have acted the
13 same way.
14 Q. All right. General, with regard to Erdemovic and the members of
15 the Pauk, Spider group, were they all arrested and was the public informed
16 that these were persons who took part in the massacre in Srebrenica?
17 A. Absolutely, like in all similar situations.
18 Q. And tell me now, what happened to the people arrested, the Pauk
19 Spider group that had taken part in the massacre in Srebrenica? What
20 happened to them, the ones that our police arrested?
21 A. They were arrested, they were taken into custody, criminal reports
22 were filed, et cetera, et cetera. But I know that they, during 2001, most
23 probably, were released from detention and up until the present time I
24 don't know what stage the proceedings against them are.
25 Q. So after the 5th of October, 2000, when the new authorities took
1 control, they released the detainees, the people who had been arrested; is
2 that right?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, do you know who actually released them?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were released pursuant to a
6 decision by the competent authority. Some court. Whether it was the
7 district court or someone -- or another court, I don't know.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Not the government, it was a court that released
9 them; is that right?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The competent authority brought the
11 decision. I think it was a court.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, are you going to allow
13 me to show a brief excerpt, some footage from a film or, rather, a Dutch
14 television programme where the head of the police of Srebrenica speaks,
15 Hakija Mehonjic, and he appears in that footage --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is its relevance and how does it arise?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it comes within the frameworks
18 of this topic, because he explains that the fall of Srebrenica was
19 politically rigged, and it was montage and staging, and he explains his
20 experience. And that it was politically staged is also borne out by the
21 testimony of General Philippe Morillon in front of the French parliament.
22 And it is also borne out by a number of other facts and pieces of
23 information linked to that, and I'm linking it up to the release of these
24 persons from the 10th Sabotage Detachment whom we had arrested initially.
25 And I also link it up, Mr. Robinson, to the fact that everything is very
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 well known. All this is very well known to Mr. Nice, and that Mr. Nice is
2 in -- in trying now to represent the event in a different light, in a
3 different way, quite consciously and intentionally is perverting the
4 course of justice, and that should be quite well known to you because you
5 have all of the documents at your disposal here in this Tribunal.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. We'll consider it.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: May I ask -- first of all ask a question.
8 Mr. Milosevic, I'm not following this, so perhaps you can assist me. Are
9 you saying that there was not a massacre at Srebrenica?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I'm not saying that at all. As
11 you can see, our government itself is saying, "We arrested Erdemovic," and
12 in the criminal report it says 1.000 -- about 1.200 people were killed.
13 That's what it says in the criminal report that was filed by our
14 authorities back in 1996 against him whom you arrested.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: In that case, what's the relevance of something
16 being politically staged?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the relevancy is that behind
18 this 10th Sabotage Detachment you had foreign services. And Philippe
19 Morillon speaks about that. So that what is relevant is to determine who
20 is responsible for Srebrenica, Mr. Bonomy. The relevance is to establish
21 the truth. Please. And I have here the testimony of General Morillon
22 himself before the French parliament.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We're considering your request.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are not with you on this one, Mr. Milosevic.
1 Move on to another area.
2 JUDGE KWON: The question would be whether this witness would be
3 able to deal with this matter. You can bring the witness later.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. General, did you follow, in view of the job that you did,
6 information coming in about the testimony of General Morillon with respect
7 to Srebrenica?
8 A. I think I know some facts about that testimony, and if I remember
9 correctly, he said that it was --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. --
11 MR. NICE: I hate to keep rising because it looks as though I'm
12 concerned. My only concern is the extraordinary waste of time that we are
13 suffering and we are suffering it in the other interests of this accused
14 who is addressing a different audience entirely.
15 If he had wanted to advance a detailed case on the good conduct of
16 him and his government and his judiciary in dealing with Srebrenica, no
17 doubt he would have done so. He studiously didn't.
18 The document that was put to this witness for comment and for
19 assistance in identification of Skorpions was put for that limited purpose
20 and has been dealt with by the witness on that limited basis, and it's
21 simply inappropriate to be consuming time in this rambling exploration of
22 bits and pieces that the accused wants this witness, who it would be my
23 submission will pretty well say what's indicated to him, try to give the
24 Serbian government a good bill of health in respect to Srebrenica. That
25 may be a very dangerous policy for this accused to start because I'll have
1 to deal with it in one way with one witness or another. And what he said,
2 of course, earlier on about the purpose of introducing this evidence and
3 the way of introducing this evidence is entirely without foundation and
4 quite wrong but I rarely bother to challenge his characterisations of the
5 Prosecution any longer.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I find your remarks very pertinent, Mr. Nice.
7 Mr. Milosevic, I'm going to bring this re-examination to an end.
8 It's not serving any purpose. We are wasting time.
9 General, thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give evidence.
10 I am bringing the re-examination to an end. You have wasted
11 enough time. You have wasted enough time. I'm bringing it to an end.
12 General, thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give evidence --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- and you may now leave.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. Robinson. Let's just
16 understand each other over one point. Mr. Nice --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I am not hearing you on it. I am disgusted with
18 your performance, absolutely disgusted.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I have a number of --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... of this
21 Court. You have abused it shamelessly.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before any question of the next witness
24 arriving is -- before the next witness comes in, can we deal with the
25 issue of exhibits, at least in principle although I suspect not in
2 As offered last week, we've been engaged in an exercise of
3 drafting a tabulated statement of our position so far as the accused's
4 exhibits are concerned and also so far as ours are concerned. It has
5 taken a very great deal of time because it seeks to cover in a way that
6 will be helpful to you, or indeed to your staff, which exhibits have been
7 mentioned at all and then it either says no objection to their production
8 or raises issues with their production.
9 I think we're up to the 2 or 300s so far but we haven't got quite
10 to the end of his list. There have been filings made by the assigned
11 counsel and indeed by the accused's associates, but neither of those
12 filings has been detailed, and therefore they've been able to come rather
13 more swiftly than ours has.
14 JUDGE KWON: Could you correct me; filing by the associates?
15 MR. NICE: I beg your pardon. I had a courtesy document, a
16 courtesy filing of a document. Ms. Dicklich tells me it hasn't been filed
17 yet. I assume it will be otherwise it wouldn't have been served on us as
18 a courtesy.
19 Ms. Graham's --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand it's being translated.
21 MR. NICE: Yes. Ms. Graham's been working on this topic since we
22 were last here in Court together, and I'm optimistic that we should be in
23 a position to have a filing ready, if not today, then I would hope
24 tomorrow, and I would ask that in those circumstances, and indeed
25 reflecting the fact also that the associate's document is not yet
1 translated, that we can put off dealing with these exhibits until those
2 filings are all available to you.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any comments from the assigned counsel?
4 MR. KAY: Yes. We put in a detailed document, as we see it, and a
5 helpful document, as we see it, and we did to so you could get -- could
6 have it by the time you came to the moment of the end of this particular
7 witness's evidence so that it was to hand then. It's really a matter for
8 the Trial Chamber. We're certainly able to assist you orally on matters
9 that you may require assistance upon, but having now finished that
10 witness, it is useful to get him out of the way in relation to his
11 exhibits before we embark upon a new witness and what that holds for us.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you have until the end of today, and we
14 hope the translation will be ready by that time.
15 MR. NICE: We're also preparing a similar document for the
16 documents we've proffered as potential exhibits, and I know that there are
17 responses in respect of those by both other parties concerned. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your next witness, Mr. Milosevic.
19 MR. NICE: It's Jasovic. Jasovic is being recalled again.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 MR. NICE: Before he comes in may I just clear the ground a bit so
22 far as documentation is concerned. The Chamber should have had two files
23 of materials called binders 1 and 2. I don't know if it's had an
24 opportunity to look at those.
25 They were prepared on the basis that they might have been useful
1 for another purpose, but they also, I think, will save time by being
2 available for use with this witness, and if we can simply refer to
3 potential exhibits as I -- or documents as I lay them before the witness
4 for his consideration by the tab numbers of this collection of documents,
5 I'd be very grateful.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please bring the witness in.
7 MR. NICE: Before the witness comes in, just a couple matters, if
8 I could. The accused has had the advantage of this material in advance.
9 Of course, that's an unusual advantage for him and not required of us in
10 any sense. Any interventions that he might make based on his pre-reading
11 of the material should be, I would respectfully suggest, carefully
12 considered before they are allowed to affect any answers that the witness
13 might give.
14 Within the materials you have this chart. Can I identify it for
15 you and explain its formulation because it's designed to do something that
16 frankly could or indeed should have been done by those assisting the
17 accused, because you were left with Jasovic with a very large amount of
18 unscheduled material, as you will remember. There were some, whatever it
19 was, 80 or 90 documents in two tabs.
20 Now, the Chamber will remember that at one stage the accused
21 revealed that he had analysed the statements in order to find out which of
22 the victims at Racak were identified within the materials of the witness
23 Jasovic as KLA activists. The Court will remember that eventually there
24 was an agreement between the Prosecution and the accused as to the number
25 and indeed the names of people who were identified, but that was of course
1 only the beginning of the story, or should only be the beginning of the
2 story because it would be impossible for a Chamber to deal with the
3 material on that general and global basis. It seemed to me that you would
4 most likely be assisted by some schedule of the information that has been
5 provided on a witness or -- not witness, on a person-by-person basis and
6 chronologically. And so what you'll see on this chart -- and I'll show
7 the chart, probably, to the witness himself, but it will, I think, help
8 you to see it in advance.
9 What's been prepared here is a chart that details as to the
10 columns all those named Racak victims who have been apparently identified
11 as KLA activists at all in the statements.
12 Going down the left-hand side and staying with the first page at
13 the moment, you'll see the names insofar as known of those said to have
14 provided information to Jasovic. And all of the statements that I hold up
15 that he produced or seeks to produce have been listed there, even when the
16 information provided nothing about any Racak victim. So that to make
17 sense of what I've explained so far, if you look at the very first entry,
18 there is an information -- or this is probably an information from Bajram
19 Hyseni on the 9th of July. It can be found in Jasovic's documents at tab
20 2.1, and as we can see, there are simply no entries in respect of him. He
21 didn't identify or his information didn't seek to identify any of the
22 alleged Racak victims.
23 There's then, if you see how the document develops, if you come
24 down to the fourth entry, there's the first of several informations from
25 someone called Sali Emini. This one is to be found at 2.5 in the
1 documentation, and this information of the 11th of August of 1998 purports
2 to identify Hajrizi Buja and Hajrizi Myfail as KLA activists.
3 I shan't deal with the right-hand Comments column for the time
4 being but I want you just to be able to understand the format of the
6 If you look at page 1, you will see that there are one, two, three
7 more further references amidst many statements that contain no references
8 to people dying at Racak.
9 Page 2, as it were, a nil return but simply going through all the
11 We then came on page 3 to November of 1998, and you can see rather
12 more entries, the crosses in different colours which are colour coded,
13 then you see a black line which is the date of Racak itself, and then you
14 see further entries. And over to page 4, further entries again.
15 Well, now, it's not possible, if this is to be a manageable table,
16 to do more than point towards the detailed material available to you.
17 First of all, so far as the material produced by the Jasovic documents
18 themselves, if you go to the last page, page 5, you'll see that along the
19 top it has the names of the victims of Racak who have been identified, and
20 then if you turn the document on its side you'll see in absolute summary
21 form. Let's take the first one, Bajrami Ragip, that what's been said
22 against him is that he ordered -- he ordered Racak citizens to provide
23 food to the KLA, and that can be found in tab 1.35. He's said to be a
24 member of the KLA with his brother Adem, 1.5. He's said to have been seen
25 in uniform with insignia and weapon. That's 1.51. Or a member, 1.54.
1 This is not, of course, intended to substitute for the full
2 statements, but it's intended to provide those who may be working with
3 this material with a guide, if they find it useful, to which they can
4 refer, because otherwise, with this number of statements it would be quite
5 impossible, it seemed to me, to expect anybody to remember the detail.
6 Looking at Bajrami Ragip, you'll also see that there is a
7 reference "appears on the KLA list of fallen heroes." This is a document
8 to which the accused referred some days ago and about which I made an
9 observation. I'll just explain that to you now for this entry appears in
10 about three, I think, entries.
11 There are published documents - I hold them up, although we've
12 seen an extract from them, so they are open source, available material -
13 that contain list of fallen heroes of the KLA and that contain indeed some
14 biographies of individual people who died as members of the KLA. Now,
15 that material was available to the accused, it didn't, therefore, have to
16 be disclosed to him. But in our further inquiries into the Jasovic
17 materials, it seemed that it might be helpful to identify and indeed to
18 deal with the fact that some three of these people appear in the list of
19 "fallen heroes," and thus you'll see references to that. For example,
20 Bajrami Ragip, and if you look down to Lutfi Bilali, you'll see the same
21 entry there.
22 Your Honours, the only other thing that I need to do to explain
23 this document to you, if you'd be good enough, then, to come back to page
24 1, seeing that the schedule provides you with a clue or a series of
25 trigger notes for what is said about each of the individual people dead in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Racak but named as members of the KLA, you'll see that on the right-hand
2 side there are summary comments which will be the subject of part of my
3 cross-examination in relation to the providers of information. I'll deal
4 with this with the witness when asking him questions, but if you cast your
5 eyes down the column, you'll see various entries which have been drawn
6 from various sources in the course of the investigation that has been
7 conducted into the Jasovic documents.
8 I hope that document is helpful.
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, if you could tell me again the meaning of
10 the dates in the left column.
11 MR. NICE: Yes. That's the date of either -- or the alleged date
12 of either the statement or the information. As the Chamber will recall,
13 Jasovic's evidence is that people turned up at the police station or were
14 taken to the police station and made statements. Alternatively, that
15 there were discrete sources of information and intelligence available to
16 him who provided information or intelligence on the dates given. So those
17 dates are indicative of that.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: If a person is not named on the final page but
19 appears in the first schedule to the indictment, that means that that
20 person hasn't been mentioned in any of the 90 statements.
21 MR. NICE: Correct. Correct. The formulation of the files that
22 you've got, again for your convenience, is as follows: The first tab
23 contains witness statements of the investigators who have been dealing
24 with this matter. First statement from Jonathan Sutch; and then tab 2,
25 statement from Annette Murtagh; and tab 3 from Barney Kelly. They
1 operated in broadly the same way, but there are some differences and
2 therefore there are one or two annexures in tab 1. We'll look at those
3 within tab 1, but otherwise tabs 2 and 3 are simply statements by the
4 investigators, their materials being lodged in the appropriate place
6 If you'd be good enough to go with me to tab 5 and to look at the
7 first part of it. What we've done here is for every item of the Jasovic
8 materials - this is 1.2 - where it is said that somebody's a member of the
9 KLA or where for any other reason the provider of the information has been
10 spoken to, we've provided materials in a common form, and I'll explain it
11 to you, and it may be helpful to start work from the back.
12 If you go to the last document in tab 1.2 of tab 5, so tab 1.2
13 will simply take you straight back to the Jasovic documents for
14 cross-reference purposes, and if you go to the last document you'll see
15 that is in B/C/S and English the Jasovic tab 1.2. Before that there's a
16 green divider, and then you'll see the statement statements but they've
17 now got paragraph numbers written down beside them and some other writing
18 on them, and you'll see the significance of that later.
19 If you come back, then, to the next document before that, you'll
20 see in this case a statement from the person said to have provided the
21 information that is Jasovic's tab 1.2. The statement deals with various
22 matters in general terms, but if you'd be good enough to turn to page 4 of
23 6 of this statement, you'll see the following: The person has been asked
24 to comment on the statement attributed to him in, again, a manageable and
25 regular fashion so that, having numbered the paragraphs or parts of the
1 Jasovic statements, the witness statement says either, "It is true and I
2 said it" or, for example, under paragraph 22 or paragraph 23 of the
3 statement, "It's not true and I didn't say it," and then he makes comments
4 about it. Paragraph 24: "Not completely true and I didn't say it."
5 So again, in order to have good order in handling this large
6 amount of material, the witness statements taken by the OTP investigators
7 deal with the general circumstances of their encounter with Jasovic and
8 then deal in detail and in a formulaic way with the statement that has
9 been attributed to them.
10 The first document is a document that you may or may not find
11 helpful, but it is a summary that had been prepared for our purposes of
12 the witness's observations, and it's simply there to help you if you find
13 it helpful, but it is a summary. It's not, of course, in any sense an
14 original document.
15 And that pattern is repeated right the way through volume 1 and
16 into volume 2. No, not in volume 2, I'm sorry. It stops at volume 1.
17 Volume 2 we have a range of other statements, starting with a man
18 called Kamberi, going on to Buja, Bilalli, and then to some people who are
19 given pseudonyms and whose statements have been redacted so that, for
20 example, at tab 9 you'll see a redacted statement as you will at tabs 10
21 and 11.
22 There's then a statement at tab 12 with quite a lot of annexures
23 to it, quite a long statement at 13, and then as from 14 you're coming
24 upon statements that were prepared for other proceedings, although one of
25 them has been amplified by the investigators in this case, and there are
1 other documents later on.
2 But those are the materials, and I hope their being prepared in
3 that way will help the Chamber and save time.
4 My last observation about materials is this: The witness was
5 asked by me through the Court to bring with him on his return notes upon
6 which the various statements or informations were prepared. Your Honour
7 His Honour Judge Robinson clarified with great precision what was sought
8 to be brought by the witness, and he plainly understood the request,
9 explaining that he'd do his best to find them. As he said yesterday, he
10 had his own internal notes which he noted down every interview, with the
11 particulars of the individual, what the person said, and we were awaiting
12 with interest provision of that material.
13 The request and the provision was to be dealt with through
14 Registry, and we sought assistance with further particulars from the
15 witness at some stage between his giving evidence and now but that was not
16 a request that it was possible to satisfy, for various reasons, and
17 eventually we were provided with a pile of documents - I think last week,
18 I'm not sure now -- yes, the end of last week, I think - untranslated, and
19 we were notified that it was for us to translate the material. We don't
20 have the resources to do that in full. We've been able to make some
21 limited analysis of the material, and insofar as it may touch on the
22 exercise with which you're particularly concerned, Racak victims, I will
23 do my best to have this material available for you in an integrated way,
24 but it is not the material we sought. We've got no original notes from
25 this witness of his described interviews with the people whose statements
1 he produces or with people who provided information to him as he says.
2 Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let the witness be brought in.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jasovic, you remain subject to the
6 declaration that you made.
7 WITNESS: DRAGAN JASOVIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
10 Q. Before I turn to the topic of your evidence, I want your help with
11 two matters relating to the case generally. Who was in charge of the
12 police in Kosovo in the first six months of 1999?
13 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I'm not aware of that because they rotated every
14 six months. They changed. So I couldn't say.
15 Q. Well, help us. You were a policeman, an investigator. What job
16 did Mr. Obrad Stevanovic have? Do you know?
17 A. To tell you the truth, I really don't know what was his job. I
18 know that he was the assistant minister of the Serbian MUP. As for the
19 rest, I as a criminal investigator and a policeman really wouldn't be able
20 to tell you.
21 Q. The other matter of detail relates to the video that, as you will
22 know, was shown in small part in this Court and then extensively in
23 Serbia. Are you aware of the published concerns before its display, its
24 broadcast in Serbia, arising from efforts made to get at people who it was
25 thought might have provided that video? Are you aware of that?
1 A. I'm not aware.
2 Q. Aren't you? But this much you can, I suspect, help me with: By
3 1999, the Skorpions were based in Sid, weren't they?
4 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that, because I as a crime
5 inspector didn't know that. I don't know that.
6 Q. Where do you live now?
7 A. I reside now temporarily in Kragujevac as a displaced person
8 originally from Kosovo and Metohija.
9 Q. And when you're at home you watch television, do you?
10 A. To tell you the truth, after our departure, my family and I were
11 in the street. I had many problems, private problems, two grown-up
12 children, and it did not even occur to me to watch television until the
13 situation improved somewhat.
14 Q. I see. So you know nothing of the playing of the Skorpion tape in
15 Serbia, do you?
16 A. That is true, Mr. Prosecutor.
17 Q. Very well.
18 A. What I know is within the scope of my work, that had to do with my
19 duties and tasks.
20 Q. And you're really telling me that you have not been acquainted
21 even recently with the fact that the Skorpions were based in Sid?
22 A. To tell you the truth, I really don't know that. My family is in
23 Kragujevac; however, I work in Leskovac and I travel continuously.
24 Q. Very well. To remind everyone, you're here in the following
25 circumstances, as you will recall: Three statements or alleged statements
1 said to have been taken by you were produced as exhibits by Investigative
2 Judge Danica Marinkovic. Do you remember that?
3 A. If you're referring to the statements, I remember the statement of
4 Afrim Mustafa and another two persons whose names and last names I cannot
5 remember now.
6 Q. Following the production of those documents through the
7 investigative judge, as you will know, inquiries were made in Serbia,
8 material was then brought back to The Hague and was then made available,
9 as it had to be, to Defence counsel in the Limaj case where you were
10 appearing as a Prosecution witness; correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And you were, therefore, cross-examined by Defence counsel in the
13 Limaj case on the basis of the material that had been produced by the
14 Prosecution in this case; correct?
15 A. Yes, in relation to Afrim Mustafa.
16 Q. You were then seen by the accused and either because you had the
17 documents here or because they were produced from somewhere else, I'm not
18 sure which, you then were called as a witness in this case for this
19 accused, and you produced a very large number of documents that you did on
20 the last occasion. Yes?
21 A. Previously I did not bring any document with me, no documents
22 linked to my testimony before the Court. However, on this occasion I
23 brought 101 statements and 116 [as interpreted] notes and informations.
24 On the first occasion, I did not bring these documents with me
25 because I testified against the accused, and I didn't know that I would be
1 called to testify again.
2 Q. Let me see if I understand you. Are you saying you've brought
3 further statements and notes today beyond those that you've provided
5 A. Yes. Not today but last Monday I sent it to the representative of
6 the Registry. 101 statements, additional 101 statements and 16 notes and
7 informations. And I can tell you that I have over 700 statements related
8 to the movement and numbers of the KLA members as well as potential
9 perpetrators of terrorist attacks. So I have over 700 statements.
10 However, I did not prepare them all because it was difficult to make
11 photocopies as our copy machine had broken down.
12 Q. Did you not understand the request from the Court last time to the
13 effect that you should bring with you your own notes in respect of the
14 informations that you had offered and the statements that you'd offered?
15 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I did understand that. However, I spent two,
16 three days in a huge archives looking for my notebooks. However, I was
17 unable to find them. These were my private notebooks.
18 Q. If they're private notebooks, what are they doing in an official
20 A. Well, I had my private telephone numbers there, and in those
21 notebooks I wrote in names and last names of the persons with whom
22 interviews were conducted. This pertained to registered informers and
23 friendly contacts as well as persons who came voluntarily to report
24 certain things.
25 Q. You assured us on the last occasion that where an alleged source
1 of information was anonymous your notebook would be able to provide the
2 name. Where did you think the notebook was on the last occasion?
3 A. I know that I put these notebooks together with other documents
4 into the truck in June of 1999. That was done in Urosevac. And the
5 notebooks were supposed to be together with the documents in Leskovac. I
6 have no reason to conceal or hide these notebooks.
7 Q. Let's see then what your procedure would be in general. Somebody
8 comes to the police station under arrest or voluntarily and you have a
9 discussion with the person. What notes did you make in hand?
10 A. Briefly, regardless of whether the person was taken into custody
11 or not or the person was a registered informant or friendly contact, I
12 would begin by taking down personal particulars of the person, and then in
13 this case I would put questions regarding the activities of the KLA, the
14 creation of KLA staffs. I would put questions regarding persons that the
15 interviewee saw in uniforms, in KLA uniforms. I would ask about the
16 weapons, whether the interviewee was able to establish whether the other
17 person was indeed the KLA member.
18 Q. Very well. This will all be in handwriting in a pocketbook of
19 yours or a notepad of some kind. Yes?
20 A. Yes, that's correct. And I was authorised to do that. That was
21 my method of work.
22 Q. Tell us, please, what the process was whereby these notes become
23 converted into a typed record or statement. Tell us.
24 A. After conducting an interview, if we are taking a statement
25 regardless of whether the person was taken into custody or not, we would
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 take a statement from the person with the proper heading stating that on
2 such-and-such day such-and-such person came in or was taken into custody,
3 and then --
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... perhaps I wasn't clear.
5 I actually want to know the mechanics of taking the statement. Did you,
6 as people sometimes do, serve as your own typist, or did you have a
7 dictating machine, or did you hand your handwritten notes to a clerk?
8 What did you do?
9 A. I did not hand my handwritten notes to somebody else. Rather, in
10 the presence of the interviewee, all the statements were recorded by
11 Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo on a typewriter. I dictated the statement to him
12 out loud, in the presence of the interviewee who listened to what was
13 being dictated. If the interviewee did not understand the Serbian
14 language, then that would be interpreted to him in his language. I did
15 not hand over my handwritten notes to anybody else.
16 A. Mr. Sparavalo and I. Mr. Sparavalo typed it on the typewriter and
17 I dictated it to him.
18 Q. Two points: Did you ever make use of a clerk or somebody
19 performing the role of a clerk to type statements out of the rooms where
20 people were being spoken to? Did you?
21 A. I did this based on the law on criminal procedure. All statements
22 taken in my office were taken by Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo and myself. I
23 dictated and he typed it.
24 Q. So you never -- this is your evidence, is it: You never used
25 anybody else to do the typing?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Was there any clerk or assistant or secretary who served and
3 worked for you and Sparavalo?
4 A. Except for the state security employees who would get involved
5 sometimes. Not always, but sometimes they were there. In view of the
6 conspirative nature of our work, there was no secretary or anybody else
8 Q. Do you speak Albanian?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Does Sparavalo?
11 A. Yes. He was born in Urosevac.
12 Q. So when interpretation was required, who provided it?
13 A. As for interpretation, since Albanians mostly knew the Serbian
14 language, we would use interpreters only sometimes and only for certain
15 details, for a few sentences. There is a difference in Albanian language
16 between the standard Albanian and the Albanian spoken in rural areas. So
17 rarely, on some occasions our Albanian colleagues would come, Avdi Musa
18 and Haliti.
19 Q. Are you familiar with, as presumably you must be, the criminal
20 procedure act that applied at the time you were doing this work?
21 A. I've stated earlier that all statements which were taken were
22 taken in accordance with the law on criminal procedure in the prescribed
24 Q. I take it, then, that you are familiar with the act.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you confirm for our Court that none of the material that you
2 produced to this Court would ever be admitted into a court in Serbia or in
3 Kosovo at the time, would it?
4 A. Can you please repeat your question? I didn't quite understand
6 Q. None of the statements or intelligence reports that you've
7 provided or sought to provide to this Court would have been admitted as
8 evidence in your courts in Serbia or Kosovo at the time, would they?
9 A. I wouldn't agree with what you said, because these are truthful
10 data coming from the source, and I believe that they would be admitted
11 before any court, be it a court in Serbia or this Honourable Chamber or a
12 court in any Western European state.
13 As I've said earlier, it is possible that I took over 1.000
14 statements from Albanians.
15 Q. Well, you tell me, then, what are the requirements under your law
16 for producing a statement of a witness of this kind where it's a
17 statement? What are the requirements under your law?
18 A. I wouldn't go into that because I'm not sure I can explain that.
19 This is something that is up to the Prosecutor in court.
20 Q. Were you aware of any provision effective at the time or since
21 whereby people being interviewed had the right to have lawyers with them
22 when they were spoken to?
23 A. I am familiar with that. If the person has the status of a
24 suspect, then, yes, such a person has a right to engage a lawyer.
25 However, in this case, these persons were not suspects. They did not have
1 such status. These were the persons who could provide the information
2 that we needed regarding terrorist attacks.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take a break for 20 minutes. We're
5 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
8 MR. NICE: I realised that there were two or, in fact, three
9 administrative matters, nothing to do with this witness, very short, that
10 I ought to have dealt with, and with your leave will deal with now. The
11 first relates to an inquiry that the Court made about -- in relation to
12 the previous witness's evidence about the dismissal from work of a man
13 called Djorovic. The materials we have and will distribute for
14 consideration, and I say no more about it than that, are press releases by
15 the Humanitarian Law Centre. They've actually got a different date on
16 them. One's dated the 26th of April, and the B/C/S version is dated the
17 27th, but they're both the same content. And that will provide the
18 material that the Chamber wanted and the best material presently available
19 to me on that topic.
20 The second query that you raised related to the Cvjetan case and
21 its appeal. May I have private session for one minute to explain the
22 position there.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.
24 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 MR. NICE: The -- and I'm going to mention this just very
14 briefly: The exhibit filing position, because we have to deal with both,
15 would be, I think, impossible by the end of the day because the documents
16 we're producing to assist the Court, and not to argue our position, simply
17 to assist with a record of the history of the documents, is entirely
18 different in character from the very short form documents provided by the
19 other two parties. We would be very grateful for an opportunity of an
20 extension until tomorrow.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you've had a week. You've had a week
22 in which to prepare this.
23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I am reluctant to reveal, because it
24 always looks like some kind of special pleading, how much work is involved
25 and the extent to which my colleagues and indeed I work at hours that are
1 not standard working hours. To reach the present position, one of my
2 colleagues has already devoted a great deal of weekend and night work.
3 What is involved here to identify what exhibits has been referred to and
4 on what basis is a significant labour. And if I may respectfully say so,
5 the document we will produce will be of considerable value to you if you
6 are minded to deal with the exhibits as we invite you to say you should on
7 an exhibit-by-exhibit basis rather than simply saying where an accused
8 brings in 400 exhibits in an almost unmanageable way, many of them not
9 translated, the easy option is to let them all in.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I hope it will not be so voluminous as to be
12 MR. NICE: Not at all. It's a neat schedule prepared with
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the circumstances, we'll grant the extension.
16 MR. NICE: I'm very much obliged. And if the witness can now come
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let the witness be brought in.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 MR. NICE:
21 Q. Mr. Jasovic, we were considering your practices and procedures.
22 Witnesses or potential witnesses or accused people could only be compelled
23 to attend the police station by what means?
24 A. Specifically these are persons who made statements and who had
25 been brought in by policemen or persons who came voluntarily to report
1 certain cases.
2 Q. Let's deal with compulsion. What's required procedurally to get a
3 person to a police station compulsorily?
4 A. I don't know whether persons were brought into the police station
5 with compulsion, that is to say the Secretariat of the Interior.
6 Q. Are you acquainted with the system of a summons?
7 A. System of summons, a court summons, yes.
8 Q. A summons being required to identify to the person who is required
9 attend the police station identifying what he's wanted there for, setting
10 out the reason for his being called to the police station; is that right?
11 A. Those are probably persons who happened to be near a theatre of
12 war or at some other suspicious place. As for these summonses, not even
13 court summonses, of course, if a person is supposed to provide information
14 needed with regard to a particular event, of course as a policeman, as a
15 crime inspector, of course I would send a summons.
16 Q. Can you point to any one of these hundreds of statements that you
17 produce or seek to produce where a summons was actually issued and served?
18 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the situation was not normal then. It was not
19 possible to send a summons to a particular village, to a person who could
20 provide information for a particular case. Persons happened to be found
21 by policemen.
22 Q. Why not in August of 1998 could you not issue a summons?
23 A. Because I'm talking specifically about the area of Stimlje. All
24 villages were ethnic Albanian villages. In August, there were KLA staffs,
25 there were KLA Albanian terrorists. I don't see who it would be who could
1 deliver the summons.
2 Q. I see. You couldn't even go to the territory to knock on the
3 door and ask someone to come, still less could you go and knock on the
4 door and hand them a summons. Is that what you're saying?
5 A. That's correct. Because in the village of Racak and in the
6 village of Petrovo and in the village of Rance and in the surrounding
7 villages there were armed Albanian terrorists of the KLA, and also there
8 were staffs and substaffs that had been established.
9 Q. Is what you're saying this, that everybody who was brought to the
10 police station was brought without a summons and by force effectively?
11 A. I don't think that force was used. I was not on the scene when
12 persons of Albanian ethnicity were being brought in. I don't know whether
13 there was any excessive use of force or whether there was compulsion. I
14 don't know. I'm a policeman. I'm a crime inspector. I don't know. I
15 have not heard of such cases.
16 If there were such cases, then probably their commander, deputy
17 commander took disciplinary or other measures.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, let me understand from the witness.
19 In the ordinary course of events, you're investigating a case and
20 you want to get a statement from a witness, to get information from a
21 witness. Ordinarily you'd summons that person or you'd invite that person
22 to attend to provide the information?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a normal situation, in normal
24 cases, there are messengers. We had a messenger who did that. In normal
25 situations, the party to be summoned was sent a summons through a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 messenger, and that explained why he or she was being summoned. If it's
2 in the capacity of a suspect, then that is mentioned in the summons. In
3 normal situations, yes, but the situation was not normal here. There was
4 no way of delivering summonses in those villages, because there were armed
5 Albanian terrorists there. They were not in one place all the time. They
6 were on the move all the time.
7 MR. NICE:
8 Q. So let's see if this is right: For every piece of paper you seek
9 to produce to this Court, there is no document that's going to explain how
10 the person came to the police station, there is no document making legal
11 the person's requirement to attend the police station, and there is no
12 handwritten note of yours available to this Court to show what passed
13 before the typed document was prepared. Am I right?
14 A. Well, you see, I said earlier on these are persons who were
15 brought in by policemen. These were not persons who were brought in by
16 policemen. These are persons who came voluntarily. They were friendly
17 connections, acquaintances. It is only with the registered informer that
18 I spoke to outside the secretariat premises.
19 Q. What level of violence by the police to people being interviewed
20 do you say was acceptable in 1998 and 1999?
21 A. Well, I don't know about any level of force being applied or level
22 of violence. I am talking about the office where I worked, where I
23 interviewed persons.
24 Q. Very well. Is it your evidence, Mr. Jasovic, that you never used
25 any violence on any person in the course of your duties?
1 A. I claim with full responsibility that I did not extort any
2 statements, that I did not apply any force let alone torture. I claim
3 that with full responsibility.
4 Q. Is it your evidence that in Urosevac police station throughout
5 your duties there you never saw any other police officer apply any force
6 or violence to any person being dealt with by the police?
7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I did specific work. I interviewed persons in my
8 office, office 59 on the third floor.
9 Q. Yes. The question is still quite simple: Did you ever see, did
10 you ever hear, did you ever hear of any of your colleagues using any force
11 on any prisoner -- not prisoner, on any person at the police station
12 throughout your time at Urosevac?
13 A. I'm telling you that I did not hear or I did not see uniformed
14 policemen using force against persons who had been brought in.
15 Q. I don't think you've answered my question, and I'm going to give
16 you another chance to do so. And I'm going to use the same words because
17 I think they're quite simple.
18 Did you ever see, did you ever hear, did you ever hear of any of
19 your colleagues using any force on any person at the police station
20 throughout your time at Urosevac?
21 A. I am telling you, and I think that I was clear and brief: I did
22 not hear any such thing, I did not see any such thing.
23 Q. Very well. It would, of course, be a terrible thing for a police
24 station to be reported on as one where violence was used, wouldn't it?
25 A. I haven't heard of that. I claim to you with full responsibility
1 that I have not heard of policemen using force against persons of Albanian
3 Q. What years were you at Urosevac, Mr. Jasovic?
4 A. From May 1981.
5 Q. Until 1999. Were you --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you the only policeman there with secondary education or were
8 there others educated to your level?
9 A. There were other policemen.
10 Q. With education.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The majority less educated than you?
13 A. I don't know. I don't know. There are probably files on
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, did you always wear a uniform?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wore a uniform from 1975 until
18 MR. NICE: Before I -- I'm so sorry, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did your colleagues wear uniforms all the time?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My colleagues who were operatives,
21 crime inspectors, they did not wear uniform. They wore civilian clothing.
22 They did their work in civilian clothing.
23 I worked as a policeman in uniform, and then I was assistant
24 commander from 1981 until 1986.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: In answering the Prosecutor's question, you said
1 you did not see any uniformed officers, I believe, use violence. Why did
2 you use the word "uniform"?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably I meant policemen,
4 because he said policemen. A crime inspector or policeman is an
5 operative, and that's different. That's what I meant.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
7 MR. NICE:
8 Q. The truth is that by the mid-1990s, under this accused, Kosovo and
9 Serbia, but Kosovo in particular, was a police state where you policemen
10 could do just what you liked. Isn't that the truth?
11 A. That's not the truth, Mr. Prosecutor.
12 Q. Tell me this: Did any one of the people who you have dealt with
13 have a lawyer available to him?
14 A. Then, at that time, according to the law on criminal procedure,
15 there were no provisions to the effect that an interviewee should have a
16 lawyer. After that, some changes were introduced in the law on criminal
17 procedure, but I cannot remember exactly when.
18 Q. Thank you for telling us that. I asked you earlier whether you
19 were aware of the law on criminal procedure and you seemed to be a little
20 less clear. Now you do recall the change in law that happened after the
21 matters into which we are inquiring. But that wasn't my question, which
22 was carefully phrased.
23 As a matter of fact, did any of the people you interviewed ever
24 have a lawyer present?
25 A. I have already said that I interviewed persons who were not
1 suspects. I talked to persons who could offer the necessary information
2 in respect of an event.
3 Q. Let's look at a document, please, which can be placed on the
4 overhead projector. I'm afraid it's in English. We haven't tracked down
5 the Serbian version, but I'll read the passage to you quite shortly.
6 This is a document called Spotlight. We've seen it before, so as
7 far as the Court is concerned, Mr. Jasovic, we can take it quickly, but
8 I'll deal with it sufficiently slowly for you to understand.
9 MR. NICE: And, Your Honours, I've asked Mr. Nort to display first
10 the foot of page 31, which reminds us that the report was sent to the
11 parliament government, Ministry of the Interior, Ministry of Justice,
12 Prosecutor's office, and President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
13 and to the same institutions in Serbia, as well as to the United Nations
14 and elsewhere.
15 Mr. Nort, if we could now come back, please, to page 15.
16 Q. Mr. Jasovic, this is a public report served on the organs of your
17 government that deals with your police station, and I'm going to read it
18 to you and I want you to tell us what it refers to. It reads as follows,
19 foot of the page: "Electric shock at The Urosevac police station.
20 "FE, an 18-year-old lives with his mother and younger brothers.
21 On the morning of the 11th of April, 1994, he was awakened by the
22 doorbell. Before he could get dressed and downstairs, the police were
23 already in the house. They'd broken the glass in the front door and
24 entered. They spoke Serbian."
25 MR. KAY: Shouldn't we have a question rather than just -- I can
1 see what's going to happen. We're going to be going down a route we've
2 been down many times before, reading out vast tracks of allegations
3 without a question for the witness --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Both Mr. -- both Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Nice have
5 patented this approach, but a question now, Mr. Nice.
6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, with great respect --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MR. NICE: -- I am presenting to this witness a report into his
9 police station. I can do it in short form or I can do it in full form.
10 In my submission, it's fair that he should know, if he hasn't in fact read
11 it already, what is said about his police station because I'm going to ask
12 him who were the policemen who attacked -- who attached electrocution
13 items to the young man concerned. Now, I can put it in that short way and
14 we'll --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just give him the gist of the report and then ask
17 MR. NICE: As Your Honour pleases.
18 Q. This report, which was made public, Mr. Jasovic, do you understand
19 this, refers to a young man taken into the police station at which you
20 worked, beaten across the soles of his feet, 30 blows on each foot, I
21 think, and then questioned again, told to take his trousers off, and
22 having equipment that sent an electric shock through him attached to his
23 sexual organs. That's what this report says. Your police station.
24 Let's deal with it in order. What inquiry was made at the police
25 station following the distribution of this report as widely as we see it
1 was distributed?
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why don't you ask him first whether he received
4 MR. NICE:
5 Q. Did you receive the report?
6 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I am not aware of this case at all. I don't know
7 at all about this. I'm horrified if that was the case. I don't know
8 whether this person was brought into the premises of the police where the
9 uniformed police are or where the inspectors are and what measures were
10 taken. I have no idea about this.
11 If this case did occur, then the commander of the police station
12 probably knows about it.
13 Q. If a report like this had reached your police station, the officer
14 in charge at the time - this is 1995, it's a long time ago - would have
15 been bound to ask you about it, wouldn't he?
16 A. Well, how can I be asked by this? This would not fall under any
17 obligation of mine. It would be my obligation only had I taken these
19 Q. So if this report was taken seriously at your police station, it
20 would be necessary for the officer in charge to discover who the offending
21 policeman or police inspector involved was, wouldn't it, and no doubt
22 dismiss him?
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, the witness has not said that the
24 report was received at his police station.
25 MR. NICE: Very well, Your Honour. My question was premised with
1 if such a report was taken seriously at his police station, certain
2 actions would follow, and I'd be grateful for --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, if there was any
4 excessive use of force, overstepping of authority, whatever violation, I'm
5 sure that disciplinary and even more serious action would be taken by the
6 commander against policemen regardless of whether they were in uniform or
7 in civilian clothing.
8 MR. NICE:
9 Q. And that would be something that would stick in your memory,
10 wouldn't it?
11 A. Well, I'm saying the commander of the police station. If I took
12 these measures or had I taken such measures, then probably I would be
13 interviewed. Not probably, I'm sure I would be interviewed.
14 Q. The reality, Mr. Jasovic, is that by the mid-1990s, your police
15 station was a notorious centre for criminal violence by the police, and
16 nothing was going to stop the behaviour of you and your colleagues in
17 beating up and, as appropriate, you judged appropriate, using things like
18 on the people in there. Isn't that the truth?
19 A. That's not true, Mr. Prosecutor. I'm stating that with full
21 Q. We had a witness --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, are you saying that an allegation of
23 that sort could have been investigated in your police office without you
24 knowing about it? Is that your suggestion?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's possible. If this kind of
1 case occurred, as the Prosecutor said. I can not know about it, yes.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where did you fall in the hierarchy in your
3 police station? How many persons -- how many officers were above you and
4 how many below?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, above me there was the chief
6 of the general crime department, then the chief of the crime police and
7 the superior officer, the head of the secretariat and his deputy or
8 several assistants, although the head of the secretariat in the Urosevac
9 SUP at that time did not have a deputy, but he had an assistant. So
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: How many officers would that be?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Above me? Well, that would make it
13 four or five persons, because the uniformed police and the chief of
14 police, the chief of the police station, the deputy and assistants in the
15 civilian or plain clothes section, the head of the crime police, the head
16 of the secretariat; they were my immediate superiors.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
18 MR. NICE:
19 Q. I want to move forward in time to 1999 briefly before I return to
20 other matters, with this in mind: When the accused asked you questions on
21 the last occasion, he raised, as you will recall, the reality that you
22 were going to be asked about allegations of police brutality, and you
23 said, well, people -- words to the effect of, you said, "Well, the
24 Albanians will say that, won't they." Something along those lines.
25 Now, I want you to help me with this: We had a witness in this
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Court who gave evidence a couple of years ago under the pseudonym of K5,
2 and he worked in your police station. His anonymity means that there is a
3 limit to how much detail I can give you about him, but he gave evidence
4 before it was known that you were going to feature in the Defence case at
5 all, and he said this of you, that in 1999, after Racak, there was the use
6 of a cafe, a basement cafe at the Pranvera cafe.
7 Do you remember the use of the Pranvera cafe?
8 A. That was after the NATO aggression, or during the NATO aggression.
9 Q. Correct.
10 A. Yes, that's right. Now there was the danger of our building being
11 bombed, we were dislocated. The general crime department and its
12 operatives were dislocated to the Pranvera cafe, or Spring cafe.
13 Q. And it was used as a sort of holding prison, wasn't it, in the
15 A. Well, there wasn't a basement. It was a room where hotel food was
16 stored or kept, and I didn't have a much better room or office either
17 where we conducted our interviews. We stayed there for a few days.
18 Q. And this witness, you see, two years ago, having worked to some
19 degree with your police, explained that he saw two security inspectors
20 beating a man who was tied to a chair. The man was called Muhamed Bega.
21 Do you remember dealing with Muhamed Bega?
22 A. As far as a protected witnesses goes -- go, I didn't follow the
23 trial but an Albanian from Urosevac brought in the daily press to me. I
24 think it was the Kosovo paper. And Muhamed Bega, I think -- no, that is
25 to say I read his name and surname in the papers, although I don't
1 remember what he looked like, but he was in that paper, I think.
2 Q. Was he one of the men you dealt with, Mr. Jasovic?
3 A. I don't know. If you have his statement, I can take a look at it
4 and I'll be able to tell you then because I just can't remember. As I
5 said, I took over 700 statements from Albanians.
6 Q. The evidence of K5 to this Court a couple of years ago was that
7 the inspectors dealing with this man were called Dragan Jasovic and
8 Momcilo Sparavalo. So that would be you and your colleague Sparavalo,
9 wouldn't it?
10 A. This witness, K5, I can guarantee he never came to the premises of
11 that building.
12 Q. How can you guarantee that, pray?
13 A. May we go into private session for me to answer that, please?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
15 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 MR. NICE:
12 Q. Mr. Jasovic, this witness K5 revealed when it was incidental to
13 his evidence that you and your colleague beat a man handcuffed to a chair.
14 A. That's not true. And let me say also that I do not know whether,
15 apart from my friendly connections, whether anybody came to the Pranvera
16 premises otherwise.
17 Q. If you don't know if anybody came there, how do you know that this
18 man didn't?
19 A. I don't know. We conducted the interview on the premises of that
20 building. The conversation did not take place within the compound of the
21 Pranvera premises, in the courtyard, for example, but inside, in the
22 so-called makeshift offices.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, may I ask something at this stage?
24 MR. NICE: Of course.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, how were your contacts with the
1 friendly contacts, as you describe them, and the registered informants
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said last time that I had a
4 registered informant and that the contacts were mostly outside the
5 secretariat, in a place that we would decide on. They were held outside
6 the secretariat, not on the premises. And the friendly contacts, as I
7 said, the people who came to inform us on their own initiative, came to
8 the office, the premises there.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: And apart from these categories, the other people
10 who gave you information at the police office, how were arrangements made
11 for them to be at the police office?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this, Your Honour:
13 As I've already said, the interviews were conducted with registered
14 informants, with our friendly contacts, contact or contacts, and an
15 acquaintance. And I say that, for example, a friendly contact would bring
16 in somebody or, rather, would come in and say that he could recount an
17 event that had taken place, whether it was Racak, Petrovo, or some other
18 village that it was related to.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: So everyone from whom you took a statement or from
20 whom you got information which you wrote up in a note was either a
21 registered informant or a friendly contact, a volunteer.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a friendly contact. And there
23 were individuals who came in of their own accord, voluntarily. And I
24 could give you -- illustrate a few cases in point.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I just wanted to be clear that all the statements
1 fall into that category according to you. Thank you.
2 MR. NICE:
3 Q. Before I turn to the next general matter, which the Chamber will
4 find me dealing with from tab 12 of volume 2, but time will not allow me
5 to deal with it in great detail. Before I turn to that, Mr. Jasovic, just
6 help me with this: Do you know anything about, and in particular,
7 anything adverse to the professional reputation of either Mr. Barney
8 Kelly, Mr. Jonathan Sutch, or Ms. Annette Murtagh, who are investigators
9 for the OTP? Do you know anything adverse to any one of those three
11 A. I'm not aware of that.
12 Q. Anything adverse generally about investigators of the OTP that you
13 would like to bring to our attention before we look at statements that
14 they have taken from potential witnesses? Is there anything you want to
15 say about OTP investigators known to you?
16 MR. KAY: Just foreshadowing, to use Mr. Nice's words, what's
17 about to happen, I think there are going to be arguments on the
18 admissibility of the form of cross-examination that he wants to embark
19 upon. And looking at the file, as we have done, we can see that in many
20 respects we're going back onto the materials that we have frequently
21 discussed in relation to cross-examination by the Prosecution of
22 witnesses, and it might be as well if we have this matter sorted out right
23 at the start of the cross-examination so that we know exactly what the
24 rules are to be.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, what use do you intend to make of these
2 MR. NICE: The use I have made with the Court's approval so far,
3 which is to explain to the witness what another potential witness says and
4 to give him an opportunity to read or to have read to him the relevant
5 detail. And that has been the consistent practice of this Court in its
6 approach to this type of document.
7 Recent rulings that say that these documents may never become
8 exhibits at the hands of the Prosecution have never changed the ruling
9 that I can rely on -- I can put the matter to the witness. And the
10 underlying suggestion of Mr. Kay that somehow -- it's a suggestion he's
11 been making for a long time, that I'm going to be so confined that all I'm
12 able to do is put general allegations is one that I'm happy to say the
13 Court has never adopted.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay.
15 MR. KAY: Materials can be used to cross-examine a witness that
16 the party may have in their possession. There is no objection to that at
17 all. But we've consistently, witness after witness, had the Prosecution
18 trying to make as exhibits such materials. We're glad to hear that
19 Mr. Nice will not be embarking on that particular procedure, although we
20 do note that -- the index nature of the two sets of files.
21 If the witness is unable to answer or deal with his particular
22 questions, then it may well be that's the end of the matter and we move on
23 to see what the witness can deal with, what he can answer from his own
25 I just foreshadow this because we have wasted a lot of time in the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 past embarking on avenues of cross-examination that have not been
2 fruitful, have had materials ruled as being inadmissible, and it's of the
3 greater interest of the trial that the witness is able to speak of matters
4 of which they have knowledge.
5 Questions relating to OTP investigators such as Mr. Kelly, who is
6 sitting in court, and other investigators as to what they have been told
7 or what people have said to them may ultimately end up as being entirely
8 fruitless as regards cross-examination of this particular witness.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: On the other hand, Mr. Kay, there is nothing that a
10 person is more likely to have knowledge of than something he is alleged to
11 have done himself.
12 MR. KAY: Allegations may be put and allegations should be put,
13 and we've never disagreed with that. But if someone has said something to
14 someone else something which he doesn't know about, we come to the time
15 old problem that we've had throughout this trial. During the accused's
16 cross-examination it was exactly the same, and as you go through the old
17 transcripts you read about it. The Judges frequently say, "Well, he
18 doesn't know about it. Move on. Let's move on to another subject." .
19 I'm flagging it up here because we've got elaborate binders, we
20 had an elaborate opening about it, and it's important, perhaps, that the
21 groundwork should be properly set and laid, but I don't disagree with
22 allegations being put to the witness and asked for his comment. That was
23 perfectly proper.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Nice will no doubt steer clear of
25 the impermissible areas of questioning.
1 MR. NICE: [Microphone not activated]... voir dire; and secondly,
2 no, time has not been -- I take a minute of my time to make this point.
3 Time has not been wasted. If, as the Court has ruled, is possible,
4 hearsay evidence on important matters may come in, then of course the
5 witness may know that if he denies everything about it no further exhibits
6 will go in, but it is essential that I put my case in detail to this
7 witness because of the possibility that his hearsay material may stand as
8 evidence, and I intend to put to him, not necessarily for every one of his
9 statements but for many of them, exactly what it is is said about him, and
10 with Your Honours' leave, I shall do it in the precise words of the people
11 concerned, summarising where possible.
12 But I'm grateful for the leave that I have to progress, and what
13 I'd like, please, with Mr. Nort's assistance and with the Court being in a
14 position to look at tab 12 -- a couple minutes, Mr. Nort, I'm sorry, my
15 mistake, a preliminary question.
16 Q. Not only did police take people into custody whenever they wanted
17 to, but they could go and call on medical doctors of the Albanian
18 ethnicity, seize their computers and seize their records, couldn't they?
19 A. No, that is not true. And we're not talking about taking people
20 into custody. They were probably -- people who were detained were
21 probably kept there until they were interviewed.
22 Now, as far as doctors and so on, I don't know anything about
24 Q. Don't you? Do you know anything adverse to a doctor called
25 Xheladin Racica?
1 A. I don't know him personally, either positive things about him or
2 negative things about him. I just don't know the man.
3 Q. I must suggest to you that this is a doctor who logged the medical
4 consequences of the criminal behaviour at your police station, kept it
5 secret on a part of his computer not available to you. Do you know
6 anything about such a record being kept?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. And indeed he published his findings at a conference later on. Do
9 you not remember a conference where the wrongdoings at your police station
10 were broadcast?
11 A. No, I don't know about that.
12 Q. Have a look at these photographs, please.
13 MR. NICE: Mr. Nort, if the video booth could be discreet as to
14 the faces of the individuals in the parts that they display so that the --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay is on his feet.
16 MR. KAY: Well, he said he didn't know about it and we're going
17 down the route again. Again, Mr. Milosevic was frequently told if the
18 witness doesn't know about something, move on and find something to ask
19 him about that he does know about. That should be something that pertains
20 to the cross-examination of this particular witness. If he doesn't know
21 about this doctor or his conference, then how can he deal with it further?
22 MR. NICE: Your Honours, may I be heard on that? May I be heard
23 on that?
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 MR. NICE: This is an astonishing effort to restrict legitimate
1 and valuable cross-examination. Because of the somewhat upside-down
2 nature of having those important matters dealt with in hearsay at this
3 stage, the inevitable course that I may have to take is to seek to call
4 this evidence in rebuttal. In rebuttal, I shall seek to show the nature
5 of the injuries charted by the doctor following people's visits to this
6 witness's police station. It is absolutely appropriate that I give him a
7 chance to explain how such injuries could have been noted on people coming
8 from his police station, and it would be quite wrong for this information
9 to be suppressed under a technical approach that Mr. Kay is pursuing.
10 MR. KAY: This isn't a technical approach and I'm not suppressing
11 anything, as I nearly knock my chair over in alarm. This isn't a
12 technical approach at all. It is a matter of common sense. If the
13 witness says he doesn't know about it, he's missed his chance to deal with
14 it. And we're not attempting to stop the Prosecutor bringing evidence in
15 in rebuttal. But if the object is to put matters to him that he doesn't
16 know about, how can this possibly serve as material that should be used in
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kay, this is rather different from some of the
19 other occasions when the witnesses were able to say they did not know
20 anything about something. What's being put here is that this is the -- or
21 the material here relates to events within the police office that this
22 witness worked in, and it can't, surely, be a complete answer to
23 cross-examination in relation to something as close to you as that to say,
24 "I don't know anything about it." Surely a prosecutor is entitled to
25 explore that a little further before we can get to the stage where we can
1 conclude that the witness genuinely knows nothing about it.
2 MR. KAY: Very well.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will allow you to have a look at the
5 Mr. Milosevic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the statement of this witness
7 that I received, in the last paragraph, paragraph 30, it is stated: "[In
8 English] The study is based on my analysis and review of documentation in
9 relation to the examination of patients after they had been released from
10 police detention. I presented my findings at an International Symposium
11 'Medical Emergency in War Conflicts in Kosovo' held at the Grand Hotel in
12 Pristina on 28-30 September 2000."
13 [Interpretation] So this is year and a half after the witness had
14 left Kosovo. This is when this doctor came out with these facts about
15 what had happened during the war in Kosovo. This cannot be linked up in
16 any way with this witness nor is there a way to prove that these
17 photographs date back to that period of time.
18 Let me remind you, when witness Danica Marinkovic came to testify,
19 an example was brought up that the lawyers, not in 1994 but in 1997 or
20 1998, sued somebody because somebody had been abused while in police
21 custody. However, none of that is mentioned here. This doctor had all
22 means available to him to file criminal complaints, just like others did,
23 and you were able to see that in the case of Danica Marinkovic.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I hear the submissions that you're
25 making, but we are going to proceed. These are matters that you may raise
1 in re-examination to discredit the evidence that may be given. We.
2 Will allow the witness to look at the photographs.
3 MR. NICE:
4 Q. I'd like you to look, please, at the photographs.
5 MR. NICE: If the audiovisual booth could avoid showing faces
6 wherever possible, I'd be grateful.
7 Q. And as we go through them, first question is: Do you recognise
8 any of these men insofar as you can see their faces?
9 One at a time. Can you put them on the overhead projector,
10 please, Mr. Nort.
11 All right. That's the first one. Next one, please.
12 A. No, I didn't recognise that one.
13 Q. Just pausing there, can you think of any innocent way a man
14 leaving your police station could have bruises like that on his body?
15 A. I'm assuring you that nobody left my office with such bruises.
16 I'm horrified by such images.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues]... please. How about that one?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not clear what's happening here. How do you
19 recognise the person from this photograph?
20 MR. NICE: You can't.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, please, Mr. Nice, there is substance in the
22 argument which has been made already in the case that there's an element
23 of sensationalism in the way that some of this sort of material is
24 produced. Now, can we get to material that will assist the witness to
25 identify --
1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I reject -- I'm sorry. I reject the
2 suggestion of sensationalism.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what's the purpose of this at the moment when
4 we're looking at identification?
5 MR. NICE: We're looking at two points, one of which is
6 identification and the other of which is the nature of the injuries of
7 people leaving the police station, and I reject the suggestion of
8 sensationalism for this reason: The circumstances with which we are
9 dealing are circumstances in which people die and they are circumstances
10 in which people do end up with injuries of this kind.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: But you've quote to first of all get to the stage
12 where it's clear that this witness has a measure of knowledge that it's
13 legitimate for you to explore, and I'm not convinced that you get there by
14 showing pictures of the injuries.
15 MR. NICE: As Your Honour pleases, but I'll ask the question on
16 this one, if I may, in this way:
17 Q. The same question, you see, Mr. Jasovic: If it's the case, as I
18 suggest to you it is, that these are people who left the police station
19 injured in this way, can you explain any innocent way that they could have
20 come by those injuries?
21 A. I am not aware of these cases, and I couldn't explain.
22 MR. NICE: Could I have a look at the next two photographs,
23 please, myself, just to see if they -- just hand them to me.
24 Would Your Honour give me one minute.
25 Q. Have a look at this photograph, first of all to yourself. Just
1 look at it. This is a man called Mehmet Kastankijeva [phoen]. Just look
2 at it yourself. Is that a man you know?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Very well. I'll move on from that topic, for the time being at
5 any event.
6 Does it remain your case -- not your case, your evidence,
7 Mr. Jasovic, that people -- that nobody ever left the police station at
8 Urosevac in an injured state?
9 A. I can assure you that nobody left my office with any kind of
10 injuries. I don't know, though, what happened in other offices.
11 Q. Very well.
12 A. However, I believe that --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jasovic, may I ask you, when you interviewed
14 persons, were they present with you alone in your office or were other
15 persons present?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Sparavalo was
17 with me at all times, and in most cases there were also operatives of the
18 state security service. If they were present when the interview was
19 taken, then they also signed the statement, these people from the state
20 security. Otherwise, it was always Mr. Sparavalo who was with me when
21 interviews were conducted.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did your office have a door; and if so, was the
23 door closed during the interviews?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I state this firmly with full
25 responsibility. There was no need to lock the door. Do you mean locked
1 door? Is that what you mean?
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... the door was
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The door was closed in order to
5 preserve the secrecy of the whole procedure. I think that that applied to
6 offices of the third floor.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, just give me a minute.
9 If the Court would be good enough to turn, if it wishes to, to tab
10 9, I will explain what I'm going to ask next and how. There are -- here
11 is a redacted statement, some of the contents of which I wish to put to
12 this witness, and I have several, maybe not all, but several passages of
13 the English text translated so that he may follow it in Serbian.
14 As Your Honours will see, the paragraphs are numbered, and the
15 witness will be able to follow the allegations I'm putting to him.
16 It is, in my submission, entirely appropriate that on matters of
17 this seriousness I should put to him the detail of the allegations that
18 are available against him in evidential form in due course.
19 Q. Mr. Jasovic -- I'm going to cut through some of this to save time,
20 though, I think. The allegations I'm putting to you come from a former
21 colleague who for reasons of safety has to remain anonymous at this stage,
22 but if you look, please, at paragraphs 15 and 16, these are specific
23 allegations about you which I intend, with the Court's leave, to read.
24 "Dragan Babic [sic], and Srecko Dogandzic's office, I saw a
25 civilian male Albanian, aged about 20, lying on the blue carpeted floor
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 without his shoes on. Dragan Babic [sic] was sitting on his legs and
2 remained there when I walked in. Srecko Dogandzic had a baton in his hand
3 and he froze when he saw me, he was standing behind Dragan Babic and it
4 was obvious that he had been beating the young man's bare feet. Dragan
5 Jasovic was in a crouched position at the guy's head with his hands either
6 side of the young man's head, it was if he had let the guy's head go when
7 I entered the room. Radomir Mitic was standing by the desk and he froze
8 when I entered the room.
9 "Jasovic stood up --" Sorry. "Dragan Babic [sic] and Dragan
10 Jasovic stood up. As Babic got up --" Dabic, I beg your pardon. I'm
11 misreading it. "As Dabic got up, he practically stood on the young man's
12 genitals and went over and stood by the wall. Dragan Jasovic was wearing
13 a button down cardigan-type sweater which was open, and as he stood up, he
14 stood on the right-hand side of his sweater, which caused him to slightly
15 lose balance."
16 Now, do you remember an incident with Dragan Dabic, Srecko
17 Dogandzic, and a young man who was being beaten?
18 A. Dragan Dabic and Srecko Dogandzic worked with grand larcenies and
19 theft. That was their area of work.
20 I'm not aware of this case at all. And I never wore a pullover.
21 I always wore a jacket. I am not aware of this case at all. I wore polo
22 shirts or T-shirts in summertime.
23 Q. Very well. I'm going to move on, in order to save time, to
24 paragraph 43. There are other paragraphs translated but we'll just go to
25 paragraph 43 for the time being.
1 The same former colleague says this: "In March 1999, I recall
2 another incident when some Pustenik and Paldenic villagers came to my
3 home. They were Ymer Lajci, Remzi Lajci, Driton Lajci and Rrahman Lajci
4 from Pustenik village, Kacanik municipality. There were others but they
5 didn't come to my house. In a SUP action the women were separated from
6 the men and their houses were burned. They were taken from their homes
7 and taken to Urosevac SUP for either two or three days and nights or three
8 days -- three nights and two days. They told me they'd been beaten by
9 Dragan Jasovic and Momcilo Sparavalo. They were black and blue from their
10 injuries. They travelled through Varosh and Komogllav villages before
11 they came to my house which is about eight kilometres away. It took them
12 a week to get to my house and they were almost dead when they got there,
13 they could not lie or sit down. They had stayed in other villagers' homes
14 en route. They said that Momcilo Sparavalo beat them with a big wooden
15 stick and Dragan Jasovic beat them with a stick and gave them electric
16 shocks. They were asked about the KLA and if they were KLA members. They
17 were asked questions and when they couldn't answer, they were beaten until
18 they fainted, and when they recovered the beating started again."
19 Now, there's a very detailed account against you naming
20 individuals. Do you remember these people Ymer, Remzi, Driton and Rrahman
22 A. I do not recall the names of these persons. If you have their
23 statements, then perhaps you could show them to me. I don't remember
24 whether they were there or not, because after all, six years have passed.
25 Now, as for any force applied against them, I can assure you that
1 that was not the case.
2 Q. Let's look at --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, do you have statements from these people?
4 MR. NICE: Not from the victims to my knowledge, no. I mean, Your
5 Honour, there's an enormous number of statements that had to be processed
6 before --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but speaking for myself, I would be, I think,
8 more impressed by the sort of material that's contained earlier in the
9 earlier paragraphs you referred to, which is direct eyewitness --
10 MR. NICE: Certainly.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: -- account as against a secondhand account of an
12 event, albeit a serious event.
13 MR. NICE: Can we therefore look at paragraph 45 in the same
15 Q. Would you be good enough, please, Mr. Jasovic, to comment on this
16 allegation by a former colleague about you in general: "As far as Dragan
17 Jasovic is concerned, he beat people before, during and after the war. He
18 beat a lot of people from Urosevac SUP region but he beat more people from
19 Mullopolc, Racak, Godance, Carraleve and Petrove villages. He had a
20 tendency --"
21 A. Crnoljevo is the name of the place.
22 Q. "He had a tendency to provoke people when, for instance, he went
23 to a bar, he would verbally abuse them, saying things like, 'This is
24 Serbia.' I heard him saying to civilians to speak in Serbian so God can
25 understand you. He did this to provoke people to react so that he could
1 bring them to the police station. They didn't react to Jasovic's
2 provocations because they knew what would happen, they remained quiet."
3 And then it goes on to suggest that you were the only inspector
4 with high school qualifications, something about which I asked you
6 But dealing with the general description of your use of violence,
7 what do you say, Mr. Jasovic; any truth in this?
8 A. No truth whatsoever. Mr. Prosecutor, I claim with full
9 responsibility. Now, what is stated here, this refers to before the war
10 and after the war. When was it that after the war I beat the Albanians?
11 After the war, we had to withdraw to Serbia.
12 Q. I imagine what's meant, but we can always get more detail, is in
13 the period until you left, which would be during the hostilities.
14 But let's just look at one last paragraph, which is --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could I just ask the witness, though: Is there a
16 bar to which you went sometimes?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mostly went to Stimlje. In
18 Stimlje to a tavern called Geneva.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you would have a drink.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Mostly in company of
21 Albanians. The owner of that establishment was an Albanian as well.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, it's time for the adjournment. We will
23 adjourn for 20 minutes.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Nice.
2 MR. NICE:
3 Q. Mr. Jasovic, my last question for the moment from the statement of
4 the witness SS375 is paragraph 48 on the translated passages before you.
5 What do you say to this analysis by your former colleague: "If a person
6 was taken in for questioning to the Inspectors, it didn't matter whose
7 office they were taken into, whether it was 61, 62, or 66, the Inspectors
8 would all get together and beat the person. One would hold him down, the
9 other cover his mouth, and the others would beat him. It was the regular,
10 normal activity for these police Inspectors."
11 Your comment, please.
12 A. My comment to this is as follows: There is no truth in this at
13 all. Offices 61, 62, or 66 are mentioned here. As I've told you, my
14 office was number 59.
15 Q. Before I turn to the next series of allegations which I'm going to
16 put shortly - the Chamber may wish to turn to tab 11 - just this single
17 question: Did I hear you right that a thousand statements were taken of
18 this general kind?
19 A. I'm sure that over 700 were taken, and it is possible that there
20 were even more than that, because I did not put them in chronological
21 order, the statements.
22 Q. Are you aware of the statements showing crimes committed by Serbs
23 against Kosovo Albanians?
24 A. I don't know that Serbs committed any crimes against Kosovo
1 Q. There are no statements to cover, for example, the burning down of
2 Racak in 1998. In the summer of 1998 a lot of Racak was burnt down, as
3 you know, don't you?
4 A. I'm not aware that the houses were burnt down in Racak.
5 Q. Weren't you. Well, are you aware of any example of an Albanian's
6 house having been burnt to the ground in the period 1998 to 1999,
7 Mr. Jasovic?
8 A. It is possible that it happened during the war, during the
9 conflict between -- in which the Albanian terrorists and KLA members were
11 Q. Very well. I'm going to return to Racak quite soon, but just so
12 that I've got the picture, or we've got the picture clearly, 700 plus
13 statements about alleged terrorist activity by Kosovo Albanians and to
14 your knowledge not a single one about crimes by Serbs committed against
16 A. These cases involved Albanians killed by the Albanian terrorists,
17 members of the KLA, killed because they did not want to join the KLA,
18 because they socialised with policemen, with the Serbs, and with those who
19 worked or were employed by the state enterprises, or those Albanians who
20 resisted their violence in any way.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you never investigate any allegations of crimes
22 committed by Serbs?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have information
24 concerning the abducted Albanians. All of this information indicates that
25 these acts were committed by the KLA terrorists. In addition to that, we
1 also have information about Albanians killed by the members of the KLA.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: But my question was a simple one: Did you never
3 investigate any allegations of crimes committed by Serbs?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that I had such
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Even against other Serbs?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, we had different
8 departments. We had a department for sexual assaults and department for
9 homicide. So the cases involving murders or bodily injuries were handled
10 by homicide inspectors. There were two of them, one was a Serb and the
11 other one was an Albanian. My line of work involved the movement,
12 activities, numbers, and the weapons held by the terrorists, as well as
13 terrorist attacks committed by the KLA.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you saying, then, that your work did not
15 involve receiving any report of crimes committed by Serbs? You were
16 exclusively concerned with crimes committed by the KLA?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If it involved a case of violence
18 committed by Serbs against Albanians then, yes, my line of work would
19 cover that as well. However, I do not remember such a case.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
21 MR. NICE:
22 Q. I'm going to turn very briefly to another of your former
23 colleagues known as K56, tab 11. The translation is -- we don't have
24 translations of these passages, and I'm going to put the allegations of
25 this other colleague of yours very shortly to you, identifying the
1 passages for the Court, the accused, and my learned friends.
2 This colleague of yours explains that during this accused
3 Milosevic's time, a larger baton was introduced for use by the police. Is
4 he right on that? Paragraph 38.
5 A. I'm not aware of that. I never even saw a larger baton.
6 MR. NICE: This witness, let it be noted - I don't seek an answer
7 on this - didn't recall seeing baseball bats. The Chamber may wish to
8 have that in mind just because of other things that emerge. That's his
10 Q. The same colleague of -- former colleague of yours, paragraph 40
11 -- sorry, paragraph 38, says that the majority of persons that were beaten
12 in Urosevac police station were Albanians, but there were a few Serbs
13 beaten too. Urosevac had an Albanian ethnicity majority and therefore it
14 stood to reason that the greater number of persons being beaten would be
15 Albanian. 99 per cent were beaten over weapons, drugs, and/or
16 terrorist/KLA activity. More frequent between the end of 1997 and into
18 Do you say that's a totally false and groundless description of
19 your police station?
20 A. That's not true.
21 MR. NICE: I'm going to turn briefly - I'm sorry to invite the
22 Chamber to change binders - to tab 1, and here the Chamber will find
23 associated with the statement of Mr. Sutch -- oh, yes. If Your Honours go
24 through, you'll find -- I'm afraid it's not page numbered. It's sort of
25 halfway -- no, towards the end of this tab you will find an internal
1 memorandum which records the content of an interview in the circumstances
2 there not being the opportunity to take a full witness statement.
3 Q. So I'll explain the position to you, Mr. Jasovic. When the
4 investigators for the OTP were seeking these people whose documents you
5 seek to produce, they bumped into, literally, somebody while waiting to
6 see one of the appointed -- to see by appointment one of the people, and
7 the person they bumped into was somebody called Rasim Rushiti, and he
8 explained the following in short order.
9 MR. NICE: And if the Chamber has it, you can see all this
10 material on the second and third pages.
11 Q. This man explains how he and another had been arrested by police
12 in early January 1999, told by the police that if the KLA started to
13 shoot, they would themselves be shot, and told about the killing of a
14 policeman in the village of Slivovo. Is it right that a policeman, a Serb
15 policeman had been killed in the village or near the village of Slivovo?
16 A. Svetislav Przic is the name of the policeman from Slivovo. I
17 think that he was killed perfidiously from an ambush on the 10th of
18 January, 1999.
19 Q. They were then taken to your police station where they were dealt
20 with by you and by Sparavalo. This is the second page, second paragraph,
21 or first full paragraph. And this person, who was simply seen by the
22 investigators by chance, says that he was beaten by you with your fists
23 and with your feet.
24 Now, think back to the anger you felt at the killing of the
25 policeman near Slivovo. Did this happen?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. That's not true. As for this person, I don't know. Give me his
2 document, give me his statement. I don't remember the person.
3 Q. Mr. Jasovic, you repeatedly required me to provide the materials
4 for people I'm asking you about. You're the one who holds the records,
5 and let me remind you, unless the position is different, you don't even
6 have, you tell us, your handwritten records of who you dealt with. Now,
7 would you be able to find a record of your dealings with this man Rasim
8 Rushiti? Would you? He was in company with another man called Musliu,
9 Sadik Musliu. Do you have a record of your dealings with him?
10 A. I cannot remember whether I do or do not. It's been over six
11 years. I cannot. I told you, I took over 700 statements. I cannot
12 remember specifically now.
13 Q. You see, this man goes on to explain how you pointed to sticks in
14 the corner of your room, a baseball bat, which you referred to as the KLA
15 bat, a rubber truncheon, and a police riot stick and you told him he could
16 choose which to be beaten by. Has he just made that up or is that true?
17 A. It's not true. I tell you with full responsibility. I never had
18 a baseball bat or an official baton or truncheon in my office.
19 Q. And finally, for I must take this briefly, he says that he was
20 then confronted by Sparavalo and you with a box, the size, he says,
21 roughly of, I think, a desktop computer hard disk box, to which wires were
22 attached and by which he was then electrocuted by you.
23 A. That's not true.
24 Q. And indeed it was for the purpose of making you scream, and you --
25 and he -- sorry, of making him scream, and indeed he did scream.
1 Completely false, is it?
2 A. Yes. It's not true.
3 Q. Now, before we come to the statements that are relied on by this
4 accused taken by you, I must turn to Racak on which I'm going to seek some
5 assistance from you; with the Court's leave, even some assistance
7 Racak happened on the 15th. Which day did you go to Racak?
8 A. I was not on the scene at all.
9 Q. Where were you when the Racak event was happening?
10 A. When the event in Racak occurred, I was on the premises of the
11 Urosevac SUP, in my own office, number 59 on the third floor, that's for
13 Q. What did you know about the event in advance?
14 A. In advance? As I said last time, what I knew in advance was that
15 a substaff of the KLA had been established, headed by the commander Afet
16 Bilalli, nicknamed Qopa. I knew that from the direction of Racak and the
17 surrounding villages, from the fortifications that were there, a large
18 number of terrorist attacks were carried out by members of the KLA. I
19 knew that they had a large quantity of weapons. I knew that there were
20 trenches, bunkers, and communication trenches that were dug up all over
21 the place on the road from Stimlje to Prizren.
22 Q. What was the nature of the attack that was going to be mounted on
23 Racak by forces of Serbia?
24 A. As regards this question, I would not be in a position to give an
25 answer. It is only superior officers that can answer that question, the
1 former head of the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac.
2 Q. Well, help me with this one little detail for an area -- from your
3 recollection of an area that's quite small geographically. Was this a
4 police operation, was this a military operation, or was it both?
5 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot answer this question either. I don't
7 Q. Let's just explore your answer. You're a short distance away from
8 Racak. This is a huge operation that was mounted. Am I not right about
9 that? This is a major operation.
10 A. You see, I was not a short distance away from Racak. I was in my
11 own office at the Urosevac SUP. Urosevac is 13 kilometres away from
13 Q. Thirteen kilometres is not a great distance for police officers,
14 is it, with radios. They know what's going on. They travel the area.
15 Are you really saying you have no understanding of the nature of the
16 attack or whatever it was mounted at Racak?
17 A. I don't know the answer to this question. It is only the superior
18 officer who can give you answer, the head of the organ concerned.
19 Q. All right. You weren't there on the 15th, but what about the
21 A. I was not there on the 15th, on the 16th, or any other day. I was
22 not in Racak.
23 Q. The statement of your former colleague, SS375 -- and the Chamber
24 will, if it wants to, find this at paragraph 9 -- tab 9, volume 2,
25 paragraph 58. The statement of your former colleague, Mr. Jasovic, gives
1 a lot of detail about radio traffic on the 16th, with call-signs and one
2 thing and another. And he's in a position to say that in the course of
3 one of those call -- one of those bits of radio traffic, somebody by the
4 name of "Jedinica (number 1) said, 'You have a person who knows the
5 terrain very well,'" and that you replied with a code saying, "I'm here,
6 Boss." Paragraph 58.
7 Think back, please, because I'm going to want a lot of help from
8 you on Racak. Were you there on the 16th, as a person who knew the
9 terrain well?
10 A. I'm telling you that I was not there at all. How can you prove
11 this to me? I was not in Racak at all when this happened. I was not
12 there on a single day. It was not necessary. It was the policemen from
13 Stimlje. Most of them hailed from Stimlje, were born there. They were
14 more familiar with the terrain. I wasn't there at all. I was not there
15 or my colleague Sparavalo.
16 Q. Insofar as it's possible, I will give you a chance to deal with
17 all the allegations made about you by those whose statements you purport
18 to have taken tomorrow morning, but I have things to deal with first, and
19 I'm only going to deal with a couple of those statements today. But
20 before I do, let me put a proposition to you in general terms.
21 It was necessary, wasn't it, in 1998 and 1999, to have some
22 material, however flimsy, to suggest that people were members of the KLA
23 even when they weren't in order that they could be dealt with roughly,
24 that they could be expelled, and if necessary, they could be killed. Is
25 that the position?
1 A. That's not true. As for all the interviews that I conducted with
2 persons of Albanian ethnicity, I did not conduct them for the purpose of
3 this trial. I am sure and I am convinced that all my information is
4 authentic, reliable, and truthful.
5 Q. Very well. I'm going to deal, then, with two, at the moment, and
6 only two --
7 A. Because --
8 Q. Sorry, go on.
9 A. I just wanted to say that the village of Racak -- well, I'm not
10 sure, but it must have a population between 2.500 and 3.000. I note that
11 about 100 persons from the village of Racak were members of the KLA. I
12 cannot say now that everybody from Racak was in the KLA.
13 Q. And the other part of -- the other part of your reasoning, which
14 we'll see reflected in the distribution of statements that you took, is
15 summarised in 235 -- 375, the same colleague's statement, at paragraph 60,
16 where he says this of you: "I believe that Dragan Jasovic arrested so
17 many people to obtain statements after the Racak incident because he
18 wanted to cover up the actions of the Serbian forces who killed so many
20 That's a colleague speaking of you. Do you follow?
21 A. He is not telling the truth. This is not correct at all. What is
22 correct is that we knew about the KLA staff in Racak and their weapons
23 even before the incident in Racak and also after the incident.
24 Q. The same colleague in the same paragraph goes on to say that:
25 "People were beaten by him in the station so badly that they would sign
1 anything to get out alive." True?
2 A. Not correct.
3 Q. He also makes this point, which relates to something you said
4 earlier. He says that if you take a hundred statements, about five
5 persons of the Albanian community, and only five, would speak Serbian but
6 they would never dare to ask for it to be read to them, they'd just sign
7 it to get out as quickly as possible. You suggested that they nearly all
8 speak Serbian. Which is right?
9 A. What is right is that most Albanians say that they speak the
10 Serbian language, just as I say that I speak and understand the Albanian
12 MR. NICE: Your Honours, if the chart -- if it helps you, I'm on
13 page 3 of the chart which shows the general distribution, and I'm at tab
14 1.35 of general tab 5. No translation of this, I'm afraid, at the moment.
15 Oh, there is some translation of it.
16 Q. Understand, Mr. Jasovic, that we're now in the territory of
17 statements taken by ICTY investigators, and let me explain. They were
18 taken either, wherever possible, unannounced, spoken to unannounced, even
19 if witness statements were taken later, following an initial interview.
20 Now, this man, 1.35, is somebody you should know about because
21 he's one of your statements, so you might like to have your own exhibits
22 before you. I have mine.
23 A. Yes, I'd like to see that.
24 Q. This is a statement taken in December 1998, before Racak occurred,
25 and to remind you of its format, it says: "I live in the village of
1 Racak. ... I can state that my two sons Rifat and Nexhat have joined the
2 so-called KLA and are in the village of Rance."
3 Let's just understand that. If we look at the original, I think
4 that the phrase "so-called" shouldn't be overstated. It's a reflection
5 simply, I think, of quotation marks. I'll correct that if I'm wrong.
6 Can you explain how it would be that an Albanian facing a
7 policeman like you would volunteer immediately that his sons were members
8 of the KLA?
9 A. You can see here in the upper part of the text that this person
10 was brought to the SUP of Urosevac by policemen. Now, I don't know where
11 the person was in the first place, where they found him. Was it policemen
12 from Urosevac or Stimlje? Ramadani Faik. The fact stated here is that
13 this person was born in 1935, and during the interview the same person
14 said of his own free will that his two sons were in the KLA.
15 The fact is here, because the first KLA staff was established in
16 Rance, but then after that, when the substaff was established in Racak,
17 then all persons from Racak who had been in Rance transferred to Racak.
18 Q. Well, this man explains, in case this will assist you, that at
19 this time, that is this date in December, the police were firing into
20 Racak from Cesta Hill and that he and his family were trying to get out,
21 indeed he was negotiating a price with a taxi driver when he was taken by
22 police - this is is paragraph 8 - assaulted immediately and taken to your
23 police station.
24 Now, do you remember police firing into Racak in December of 1998,
25 attacking the place?
1 A. I'm not aware of that case. On the basis of statements, I do
2 remember that at a place called Cesta, and this is a place on a hill above
3 the old person's home, that there were Albanian KLA terrorist positions
4 there and that they had automatic rifles.
5 Q. He explains at paragraph 11, taken to your police station, he was
6 dealt with by you, and that he recognised you when he saw you on
7 television in the course of your giving evidence in the Limaj trial.
8 And then at paragraph 14 and 15 he says that which you have
9 translated before you, and I'll read it. He says: "Jasovic called three
10 uniformed policemen. He asked me, 'When you were coming up the stairs,
11 did you see the blood?' And I replied 'Yes.' He said to me, 'Now you're
12 going to clean the blood with your blood - your blood will be on the
14 "The uniformed policemen began beating me all over my body in
15 front of Jasovic and the other civilian-clothed inspector who had a large
16 moustache. I can't describe him any better."
17 That's Sparavalo, isn't it? He had a large moustache.
18 A. It is correct that my colleague Mr. Sparavalo had a moustache.
19 Q. "While they were beating me, they asked me why I was running away,
20 and I said because the children were petrified over the shooting from
21 Cesta Hill. They continued to ask me questions, beating me severely with
22 batons until I lost consciousness. I remember being dragged down the
23 stairs by the police, and they took me to the taxi driver, who I was
24 earlier making arrangements with for my family. I don't know who called
25 him to collect me."
1 He explains how he was taken to a doctor, given an injection and
2 eventually escaped to the place he wished to to get away from Racak.
3 Do you remember anything about such an incident, Mr. Jasovic?
4 A. Specifically I do not remember, but the only thing that I can
5 confirm here as authentic is the statement that I and my colleague
6 Mr. Sparavalo signed and also Nebojsa Djordjevic. And the same one was
7 signed by the person who I interviewed.
8 It is a fact that uniformed policemen never entered my office and
9 applied any kind of force towards persons that I was interviewing. I
10 would never allow that kind of thing.
11 Q. Now, would you look, please, at the original of the statement
12 that's before you, and at the foot of the page -- perhaps we can put a
13 version of this on the overhead projector, I'll make mine available.
14 If you look at the foot of this page, Mr. Jasovic. Right. That's
15 enough. Thank you. What do we see on the left-hand side?
16 A. You mean those numbers there?
17 Q. No. Bottom left, please.
18 A. In the left-hand corner there is a signature of the interviewed
20 Q. And just tell us, please, what characters is it written in?
21 A. I'll explain this to you. I will give you a truthful explanation.
22 The letters are Cyrillic. The person was born in 1935. Not only this
23 interviewee but all these persons. I also had the commander of a squad
24 who was born in 1930, and he wrote Cyrillic most of the time. I guarantee
25 that all these people over the age of 60 who I met, who came to deal with
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 administrative business of their own, for instance, they all used the
2 Cyrillic script.
3 Q. Well, this man's -- you were ahead of me on the point,
4 Mr. Jasovic. You were ahead of me on the point. This man who fled the
5 area says in his statement that he cannot write the Cyrillic alphabet and
6 that it's not his signature. Did you make it up for him?
7 A. I am claiming to you with full responsibility that this is his
8 signature. A handwriting expert can confirm all of this.
9 Q. Tell me - and this relates to paragraph 19 of this statement for
10 those following it - when these people you say came voluntarily or were
11 brought to the station and made statements and then let go or sent home,
12 were they provided with any piece of paper that revealed what they'd been
13 doing? Were they provided with a copy of their statement, anything like
15 A. They would not get a copy of their statement or a piece of paper.
16 I don't know what kind of paper this is.
17 Q. And the reason that this man's signature had to be forged is
18 because you'd beaten him into unconsciousness, dragged him down the stairs
19 and put him in the taxi. That's why you had to forge his signature,
20 Mr. Jasovic.
21 A. That's not true that force was used against him. I guarantee that
22 to you that that's not true at all. I don't even remember whether he
23 entered a taxi.
24 Q. Before I turn to the next witness statement, there's something
25 else I've been meaning to ask you and it's this: In the course of the
1 1990s, how many deaths in custody were there at your police station?
2 A. I don't know of a single death in custody at my police station.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... bit harder. What about
4 people falling out of, jumping out of, or being pushed out of the windows
5 on the third or fourth floor? Did that ever happen?
6 A. I don't know about those cases. I don't know that anybody jumped
7 out of a window or anything like that.
8 Q. A death in police custody would be something that you could never
9 forget, yes? It's such an important event, it's hardly going to be
10 something you could forget, is it, Mr. Jasovic?
11 A. Mr. Prosecutor, we're not talking about custody, we're talking
12 about the detention room. And there wasn't anybody there, any individuals
13 who as a consequence of beatings or anything like that died, succumbed,
14 and there was no beating.
15 Q. I'm going to take you now to a statement of yours, or a document
16 of yours, that's dated after Racak, but before I do and as we pass through
17 the period of Racak, one other question of detail. In the course of the
18 Racak event, Djordjevic, General Djordjevic came to your police station,
19 didn't he?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
22 A. I don't know. To be quite frank, I really don't know. I don't
23 know if he came. Probably he came to see the superior official. I didn't
24 look through the window to see who was coming and going into and out of
25 the building.
1 Q. Given your very limited knowledge of the gravity of the Racak
2 event, would you expect to see someone of Djordjevic's rank on the ground
3 at the police station at the time?
4 A. I just can't answer that question. I can't. I don't know what to
5 say. I don't know.
6 Q. And would you expect -- do you know the man Sainovic?
7 A. Well, I don't know him personally, Sainovic, but I have heard of
9 Q. Very well. Let's look now, then, please, at 140 -- 1.49. And
10 again, you may wish to refresh your memory with the original statement.
11 A. Tab 1.49 did you say?
12 Q. Yes. Naser Mujota. Now, of the 700 plus statements that you've
13 taken and the selection that you brought to Court or you produced in
14 Court, do you remember this one?
15 A. As for Naser Mujota, I say with full responsibility that he came
16 himself to the premises of the secretariat to see me personally. To
17 office 59, that is.
18 Q. Why did he do that?
19 A. He did that -- I know that he didn't come once, he came two or
20 three times to see me. He told me that in the village of Mullopolc, there
21 was a group of Albanian terrorists who had set up a substaff of the KLA,
22 and I told him personally, I told him, I said, "Sir, go and think about
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. "Is it true? Is it really true or not?"
1 Q. Well, you see, you told us on the last occasion that he came
2 voluntarily. Let me tell you a detail and see if you can think about
3 this. This man was living in Slovenia, so unlike the other people, he had
4 the chance of escaping the dangers of Kosovo to which he returned from
5 time to time.
6 Why should such a man -- can you give an explanation of why such a
7 man should expose himself to the dangers of coming to your police station
8 and giving information against his friends and neighbours? Could you
9 explain that to us, please.
10 A. I am giving you an explanation: Because he wanted to. Probably
11 he wanted to collaborate with the authorities of the Republic of Serbia,
12 to cooperate with them, and he came personally to tell me that he couldn't
13 live peacefully in the village and that he and his family would have
14 problems if a conflict were to arise between the Albanian terrorists of
15 the KLA and members of the police force of the MUP. And I tell you that
16 quite certainly -- I don't remember exactly, but two or three times he did
17 come to see me, and I even remember one occasion when he came to my office
18 a colleague of mine came in and I asked him to wait, to wait outside in
19 the corridor.
20 Q. This was after Racak, and this man was nearly to safety on his way
21 to Skopje airport when he was arrested, and because of his coming from
22 Stimlje, he was detained, brought back to Ferizaj and then taken to you,
23 and I'll deal with it as quickly as I can. Go, please, to paragraph 8.
24 A. Mr. Prosecutor, if he went in the direction of Skopje, then
25 there's no logic there, because you go to Stimlje via Urosevac. So there
1 was no logic in him going via Urosevac and then being detained in Stimlje
2 and then from the police station of Stimlje to be sent to the police
3 station in Urosevac. So I can tell you that he came voluntarily. I
4 understand the man. I understand him.
5 Q. He was stopped at the border at Elez Han, allowed through the
6 border, they kept his brother. He returned. They were both tied up, said
7 they came from Stimlje, handcuffed, kept for three or four hours, and then
8 police arrived in a Zastava vehicle, taken to Kacanik police station where
9 there were some 20 or 30 police. Commanders swore at them and beat them
10 consistently for an hour with iron rods and they were then told that the
11 police at Ferizaj -- no. And then we come to Ferizaj police station at
12 paragraph 8. That's the history. Would you follow paragraph 8, please.
13 "At Ferizaj police station we were taken into an office. There
14 were eight or nine policemen. One of them pushed a desk at me and I was
15 losing my breath. Some had long hair, sang songs and swore. We were made
16 to face the wall with our hands on the wall. They hit and punched us. I
17 was yelling, I couldn't take the pain any more."
18 Skipping little passages, for speed. "I was hit on the legs with
19 a metal bar. I fell on the floor. One of them kicked me in the ear.
20 There was another policeman from Slivovo, Dragan, last name unknown, he
21 grabbed me and my brother by our hair, banged our heads together ... bad
23 And then he says: "I recognised one of them as I've seen him
24 recently testifying at The Hague Tribunal. I knew him then as Dragan
25 Jasovic. I knew him previously from the police station. He was in charge
1 of Ferizaj, Shtime and Lipjan. When we were dragged upstairs, Jasovic was
2 in civilian clothes and he said to the police officer to kill us. At one
3 point I wanted to jump from the third floor ..."
4 Now, think back. That's what Naser Mujota says about this
5 encounter. Is there a grain of truth in that?
6 A. [French on English channel]... that I was in charge of -- [French
7 on English channel].
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. I think we're getting French.
9 MR. NICE: We did for a time but I've returned to English, but it
10 may be different at your side of the Court.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear English on the English channel now?
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 MR. NICE:
14 Q. Go on, Mr. Jasovic.
15 A. I said specifically that I was in charge of Urosevac, Stimlje, and
16 Lipjan. Lipjan belongs to the Secretariat of the Interior of Pristina.
17 Second point: It is not true that he was from Djeneral Jankovic,
18 taken via Urosevac to Stimlje and then from Stimlje to Urosevac and I
19 wasn't able to follow the whole route that you set out.
20 Thirdly, it is not true and correct, and I say that with full
21 responsibility, that he came -- a moment ago, you said a moment ago that
22 he was brought to Stimlje --
23 Q. How do you know --
24 A. -- from Djeneral Jankovic.
25 Q. How do you know he didn't take that route? I thought you just sat
1 behind your desk, waiting for people to arrive? How do you know?
2 A. I didn't understand your question. A moment ago you said that
3 when he was on his way he was stopped on the road towards Djeneral
4 Jankovic and that from Djeneral Jankovic they took him to the police
5 station in Stimlje and from Stimlje to the Secretariat of the Interior of
6 Urosevac. And I know about that from Djeneral Jankovic to Urosevac via
7 Urosevac you go to Stimlje or you take the byroad across Lipjan.
8 MR. NICE: Your Honours, we have translations down to paragraph
9 14, but I need to ask, if it's a 43 minutes past rise, I need to ask the
10 witness some other questions on another topic to make use of his time if
11 he's willing to help.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask the court deputy, is the Limaj case
13 here this afternoon?
14 There is another case this afternoon. So 1.43.
15 MR. NICE: Very well.
16 Q. Mr. Jasovic, we've heard from Danica Marinkovic, who did not
17 investigate or conduct an investigation into the facts of this case.
18 We've heard from Obrad Stevanovic who was not able to conduct an
19 investigation into this case, and you are the policeman from the Racak
21 Do you have experience in your 20 years or so in the police of
22 inquiring into crimes on your territory?
23 A. I do have experience, a great deal of experience.
24 Q. Have you reviewed at any stage any or many of the documents that
25 deal with the Racak event?
1 A. You mean my documents.
2 Q. Not just your documents, other documents. Reports of what
3 happened as well as your statements saying that people were members of the
4 KLA. Have you looked at the other documents ever?
5 A. I looked at my statements personally, and my statements, my notes,
6 my information notes, I saw through the documents that there were a number
7 of statements from the state security sector.
8 Q. Statements of what kind; reports or witness statements?
9 A. Witness statements -- no. Statements from individuals who were
10 interviewed by them.
11 Q. But they aren't available to us today; is that right? It's
12 something different?
13 A. Well, that's the question you asked me.
14 Q. You see, we haven't had in this court, for example, a statement
15 produced by the local authorities or by the Belgrade authorities or any
16 other authorities from the Serb side explaining what happened in Racak.
17 We've got a lot of bits and pieces of documents, but we haven't got a
18 statement giving an overall account from somebody who was involved. Do
19 you find that surprising, as a policeman?
20 A. Well, I can't say. Probably the person who was on the spot should
21 have written a report about the event that took place in Racak. I mean,
22 the person in charge of the action or someone designated by him. I don't
23 know whether such a statement exists.
24 Q. That's Goran Radosavljevic, isn't it? He was in charge. You know
1 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know whether he was in charge or
2 not. I'm just not aware of it. I don't know. There's no reason why I
3 should hide anything like that --
4 Q. You see --
5 A. -- if I knew about it.
6 Q. -- because as we haven't had anybody who's produced an analysis,
7 if I were to give you as many documents as we've got in Serbian -- there
8 are some of them in English but I would only ask you to look at the
9 Serbian ones overnight, would you be prepared to look at those documents
10 in order that we can save time in asking you questions about what the
11 documents would show to a local policeman versed in the practices of the
12 local police? Would you help us do that, Mr. Jasovic?
13 A. You mean today for tomorrow?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Well, I'd like to have a rest after these proceedings, after the
16 trial. I'd be happy to help you, but not perhaps for tomorrow.
17 Q. It's only a question -- how big is the file, Ms. Dicklich?
18 It's not a very big volume of material because we haven't been
19 provided with a great deal, and half of this is in English so I wouldn't
20 be asking you to look at the English, but if you would help us. It's a
21 chronological compilation that we've been able to put together of what has
22 been said or written by Serbs, authorities of one kind or another, about
23 the Racak event. Would you be prepared to look at that for us?
24 A. Well, I really don't know whether I could do that today. I'd like
25 to take a look at it, but whether I'll be able to get through that today I
1 can't say.
2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the position, as the Court knows, is that
3 there has been no single comprehensive document produced, and we have done
4 our best drawing on all sources and in an entirely non-selective way to
5 put a chronological collection together of the documents, and I would like
6 to ask some questions about that. If the witness and the Chamber were
7 disposed to read the material overnight, the questioning would take less
8 time. If that's not possible, more time will be consumed.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness does not appear disposed -- to be
10 disposed to reading it overnight. He's not certain whether he could get
11 through that material tonight.
12 MR. NICE: Well, I've done my best, but can I ask him one or two
13 more questions just so that we know what his position on Racak is --
14 sorry, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before, could I ask one question?
16 Mr. Jasovic, what position did Goran Radosavljevic hold?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be quite honest and frank, I
18 really can't explain what work post and what position he held.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wasn't an assistant minister, so
21 I really don't know.
22 MR. NICE: If I --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
24 MR. NICE: Just a couple of questions.
25 Q. Tell us in a sentence, Mr. Jasovic, what happened at Racak.
1 A. You mean the 15th of January, 1999?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. There was a conflict between the Albanian KLA terrorists and
4 members of the police, the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.
5 Q. And who attacked whom?
6 A. Who attacked who. Well, certainly the members of the KLA opened
7 fire on members of the police.
8 Q. And then? You see, you've spoken to so many witnesses who you
9 tell us have told you the full truth about everything, it's impossible
10 that you don't have some understanding of events. So tell us what
11 happened next.
12 A. I don't know specifically what happened next on the spot. I can
13 tell you -- I could tell you had I been there on the spot. Then I could
14 explain the details of it to you. But as I said previously, all I do know
15 is there was a KLA substaff. I know that there were bunkers, trenches and
16 communicating trenches. I know that from the direction of Racak and
17 surrounding villages a large number of terrorist attacks were launched.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I hate to stop you midstream.
19 Experience is when we stop at 1.45, the next case begins ten to 15 minutes
21 MR. NICE: Very well. I will --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You will have to take this up tomorrow morning.
23 MR. NICE: So be it.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will adjourn until tomorrow, 9.00 a.m.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] ... to set out a number of topics.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused repeat what he said. The
4 microphone wasn't on.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Start again, Mr. Milosevic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, for the record, for
7 the transcript, I would like -- today's record, I'd just like to enumerate
8 a number of topics which Mr. Nice launched in his cross-examination, dealt
9 with in his cross-examination of General Stevanovic and for which you
10 interrupted me and did not allow me to ask General Stevanovic any
11 questions about. You will recall, I'm sure --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not now, Mr. Milosevic. If you wish to take up
13 that matter, I'll consider it tomorrow morning at 9.00.
14 We are adjourned.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day
17 of June, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.