Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 41735

1 Tuesday, 5 July 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, briefly about forthcoming Defence

7 witnesses.

8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, microphone.

9 MR. NICE: Briefly about forthcoming Defence witnesses. My

10 understanding is that this witness will last all day today in chief and

11 cross-examination may therefore go into next week, but that will still

12 leave a week and a bit before the recess. Ms. Dicklich has a good working

13 relationship with the accused's associates, and we get certain amounts of

14 information about what may happen, but obviously I do my best to treat as

15 confidential the sort of information that would be passed as between

16 counsel on a confidential basis and restrict my observations to what I

17 know the accused or his associates would be happy for me to tell you

18 directly.

19 What I can tell you directly is that the next three notified

20 witnesses, and I don't think there's any protection for their names, are

21 as present Janicevic, Ibraj, and Fazliu. We have been alerted today, and

22 I think I can tell you this, to the fact that Janicevic, who is said to be

23 dealing with Urosevac, and in particular Racak and Kacanik, may be

24 producing 500 exhibits, none of them on the 65 ter list so far as I know,

25 not yet served. And I simply have to say that the time has come to say I

Page 41736

1 will object to dealing with that quantity of exhibits through this witness

2 being presented to us this late in the day. We simply cannot adequately

3 deal with it.

4 The next two witnesses, the Court may remember, were not

5 identified by name until I think it was last week. I'll be corrected if

6 I'm wrong. Their 65 ter summaries for testimony said to last only two

7 hours in each case are brief to the point of being effectively useless for

8 us. Says one will testify about his experience in the local police as

9 about the circumstances in Djakovica, and the other one says that he

10 cooperated with police in Urosevac and will testify about his cooperation

11 and knowledge of events in the area.

12 Again, although we've discussed 65 ter summaries in advance, and

13 I'm well aware of the Court's rulings, I'd ask the Court to look at these

14 65 ter summaries now given that we've been provided with no documents in

15 relation to these witnesses which would flesh out in any way in advance

16 the nature of the testimony they're going to give, I'd ask the Court to

17 look at those and be prepared for the fact that I may object to dealing

18 with them in cross-examination if I find that I am taken by surprise.

19 So this is an advance warning through the Court to the accused

20 that the -- this is an advanced warning to the accused through the Court

21 that I may be objecting to each of these three witnesses when they come to

22 give evidence if I'm not in a position to deal with them for the reasons

23 I've outlined.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what do you say in response to the

Page 41737

1 -- to what the Prosecutor has just stated?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated].

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not getting any translation.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, before I answer this,

6 I also have a comment, a request, and I would say even a protest. I

7 envisaged, and it's on the witness list, that witness Vojislav Seselj

8 begin on the 18th. Last week, I informed the Registry that I should see

9 him and speak to him. That was supposed to happen yesterday, but I was

10 informed that I could not. I don't know if the Registry is allowed to

11 prevent me from contacting a witness. That is a serious witness who would

12 be testifying for a long time about important elements. It is a witness

13 mentioned in the indictment, or what Mr. Nice calls the indictment. It is

14 a witness --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: When do you plan to call him? He's not on the

16 list for your next three witnesses.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He is on the list. I don't know why

18 the entire list hasn't been submitted to you. I plan to call him on the

19 18th.

20 In any case, when I am going to contact any of the witnesses is

21 something that I should be able to decide alone. It's my business.

22 Because I'm forced within the time limitations to use every day, every

23 afternoon, for contacts with witnesses. And last week when I met with

24 Mr. Seselj, I had agreed to see him yesterday, but yesterday I was

25 informed instead that he was not allowed to see me.

Page 41738

1 Would you please issue an order to prevent such incidents from

2 happening, that I should not be again prevented from seeing a witness that

3 is supposed to testify here.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the first matter, I see you have

6 employed the strategy of raising another matter before dealing with what

7 the Prosecutor has himself raised, but never mind that. Where is this

8 list on which Mr. Seselj is placed as a witness to testify on the 18th?

9 We don't have it. We have a list with three witnesses.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The list is with the liaison

11 officer. As for the witness list, Mr. Seselj has been there from the

12 beginning, and you received that list a year ago.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not talking about the witness list in

14 general. I'm talking about the week-by-week list on which you say

15 Mr. Seselj is placed to appear on the 18th.

16 Can the liaison officer assist?

17 MS. ANOYA: Your Honours, the list that I received on the 30th of

18 June does not have Mr. Seselj's name. It is the list that I have filed

19 and it's only the four witnesses including General Delic.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's what you received from the associates.

21 MS. ANOYA: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: There you have it, Mr. Milosevic. That, of

23 course, is not a full answer to the issue you have raised, but that matter

24 needs to be attended to.

25 As for the complaint that you've made, I'll ask the Registrar to

Page 41739

1 report to us on the matter. The Registrar will be required to report to

2 the Chamber on the matter, and the Chamber will make the appropriate

3 decision.

4 Will you now deal with the two complaints raised by the --

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.


7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will answer those objections

8 immediately, but please bear one thing in mind: My time is precious. I

9 plan to see Mr. Seselj this afternoon. Would you please deal with this

10 within the course of the day, otherwise I won't be able to use this

11 afternoon. In view of the schedule that is with the Registry, the

12 witnesses who are to follow are not here yet although I asked for them to

13 be here beginning with Monday, and I cannot suffer for reasons that I

14 don't understand.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I take account of what you have

17 said. It may not be realistic to expect the Registrar to report by today,

18 but the Chamber will require the Registrar to report to us as soon as

19 possible, bearing in mind in particular that you wish to interview

20 Mr. Seselj this afternoon, and that directive will be passed on to the

21 Registrar by the Court deputy.

22 Now, as to the 500 --

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.


25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Generally speaking, this list that

Page 41740

1 the liaison officer provided a moment ago is not at all contradictory to

2 what I said, because this list contains three witnesses for this week, and

3 I told you I was planning to call Mr. Seselj in the week beginning with

4 the 18th. This is the list only for this week. Today is the 5th. So

5 much about that. And I would really appreciate it if there would be no

6 more of such inconvenience.

7 Second, in response to what Mr. Nice said about exhibits for

8 Mr. Janicevic not being translated, Professor Rakic informed me that he

9 had submitted these documents more than a month ago. I don't know what

10 happened with them. I appreciate that there are certain problems due to

11 the capacities of your translation service, which would continue to

12 translate my exhibits for the next 50 years if they continued at the same

13 rate as before, 1.000 pages a month, but if you do not deal with this, I

14 will understand that is one more hindrance to my Defence case, and I will

15 simply call him while waiting for the translations.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the technical complaint is that

17 the exhibits, some 500, are not on the exhibit list, and that is required

18 by the Rules.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I fully understand

20 these procedural problems that you are pointing out. However, since I am

21 not able to communicate and to have all the documents at my disposal, I

22 cannot have these documents in advance, and as you know, I had a very

23 short time to get hold of them, so you must understand that when I call a

24 witness together with the documents to be introduced through him, I should

25 have the right to present these exhibits.

Page 41741

1 I just told you, in this case they were submitted over a month

2 ago. I appreciate all the problems related to resources, but please, you

3 should bear this in mind and try to deal with it, because I cannot suffer

4 constant inconvenience and problems that arise from -- here. The liaison

5 officer is telling me that the documents for Janicevic were returned to

6 Professor Rakic on the 26th of May due to the 1.000 page limit. That is

7 just one more thing proving what I'm saying.

8 I did submit all these documents and then they are returned to me

9 because of the page limit. What am I supposed to do, wait for this limit

10 to be exhausted? Then time is lost. I don't see how you expect me to

11 deal with this problem. This is practically what amounts to obstruction

12 to my Defence case, to the facts that I want to present, just as the same

13 as preventing me from speaking with my witnesses. Nobody has had to

14 suffer that before.

15 [In English]... Professor Rakic on 26th of May due to 1.000 pages

16 limit. [Interpretation] Please, I cannot deal with the limits of your

17 services. Please don't expect me to.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: The matter that concerns me not is not a technical

19 issue at all, but I observe from Mr. Nice's comments that you have

20 deliberately failed to give him copies of these documents, and that's

21 inexcusable in view of what happened I think the week before last when I

22 made my own observations about that failure. That seems to me to be a

23 deliberate attempt to obstruct the Prosecution in their work.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, Mr. Bonomy, that if we are

25 talking about any indications of obstruction, I am the victim of that

Page 41742

1 obstruction. And I have said this publicly, and I won't repeat it again:

2 Every document the Registry receives as a potential exhibit from me should

3 immediately be available to Mr. Nice. The Registry's authorised to give

4 him that.

5 So if the translation service returned the documents for

6 Mr. Janicevic, that doesn't mean at all that copies of what has been given

7 to the translation service cannot be provided by Mr. Nice [as

8 interpreted]. There is absolutely no reason why that shouldn't be done.

9 They are authorised to give him everything immediately.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, I carefully went over this the last

11 time. It is not the obligation of the Registrar to give Mr. Nice the

12 documents. It is your obligation to give them to him direct, and you were

13 clearly advised of that, and it appears to me you are intent upon never

14 complying with that Rule.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no comment to what you say,

16 Mr. Bonomy. I submit my documents through the liaison officer, and I have

17 no other contacts.

18 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honours, I don't want to take any more time

19 but simply to say that His Honour Judge Bonomy is quite right and we have

20 received none of the Janicevic material nor until this morning did I know

21 there was going to be anything like 500 documents.

22 If Seselj is seen and is called, we've received no notification of

23 any documents, presumably a large amount, that he will be producing. None

24 are revealed on the 65 ter list. And the accused hasn't dealt at all with

25 the inadequacy of the 65 ter summaries for the other two witnesses, but,

Page 41743

1 Your Honours, I don't want to take any more time. I made my position and

2 I may simply object to these witnesses being called.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we'll do two things: We are going

5 to ask for a report by the CLSS in relation to those documents that you

6 say were returned to you on May the 26th. The CLSS will provide a report

7 on that.

8 As for the 500 exhibits that have not been placed on the exhibit

9 list in accordance with the Rules, you will be required to submit a

10 written application for their late application, their late addition to the

11 exhibit list, with an explanation as to why the late application should be

12 granted.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson. May I now

14 continue? With regard to Mr. Nice's objection.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: We've dealt with that. Oh, yes. Go ahead. Go

16 ahead.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Concerning these two witnesses, I

18 did provide an explanation. Namely, we didn't provide names long in

19 advance for security reasons. Those two witnesses will not be testifying

20 for two hours but much shorter because they are very specific. There are

21 no documents to be introduced through them. So therefore we have

22 testimony without any exhibits. Those will be witnesses testifying to

23 events they eyewitnessed when they were on the ground. So I see

24 absolutely no reason why they should not be allowed to testify.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: So there are no exhibits in relation to Muharem

Page 41744

1 and Fazliu.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE BONOMY: The concern in this case, Mr. Milosevic, is not so

4 much documents or length of evidence. I think it's identifying what the

5 evidence's about. And if these witnesses are eyewitnesses to specific

6 events, it should be possible in a 65 ter summary to give an indication of

7 the dates and places that they will be speaking about. That appears to me

8 to be fair notice in a 65 ter summary.

9 Now, are you not in a position to amplify what is here in relation

10 to each of these witnesses by giving information about the dates and

11 places of the events that they will speak of?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, I don't know that Rule

13 65 ter is binding on me for me to present in detail what the witness is

14 going to testify about. A few sentences about the contents of the

15 testimony have been provided. And I -- I haven't seen the witnesses yet.

16 I'm going to see them in future. I asked to see them beforehand, but they

17 won't be available before the end of the week.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: As you should know, the Rule requires you to

19 include in the list a summary of the facts on which each witness will

20 testify and the points in the indictment as to which witness will testify,

21 and neither of these is dealt with in either of these 65 ter summaries.

22 So on one view you are in breach of that Rule, and obviously if Mr. Nice

23 takes objection we will have to consider it in the light of that unless

24 you do provide additional information once you've seen the witnesses. And

25 it would be helpful once you've seen them if you could give an indication

Page 41745

1 of the dates and places about which they will speak.

2 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, I'm very much concerned about the

3 use of time of yours. How many more witnesses are you going to call for

4 Kosovo indictment?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would have to check that,

6 Mr. Kwon, and then give you an answer as precise as I can make it, but off

7 the top of my head I can't give you an answer just now.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You should bear in mind, Mr. Milosevic, that you

9 have utilised about half of the time that has been allotted to you, and

10 you're still dealing with the first of three indictments, Kosovo.

11 Let the witness be brought in.

12 [The witness entered court]


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You may continue, Mr. Milosevic.

16 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General.

18 A. Good morning, Mr. Milosevic.

19 Q. We left off discussing document 394, which was tendered by Colonel

20 Vlatko Vukovic and refers to the actions of the unit from the 25th to the

21 28th of March. I'm now going to ask you, General, to try and speed the

22 process up and get through the documents as quickly as possible with just

23 some of the most important points focused on.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's no translation for this document,

25 Mr. Milosevic. If you're going to deal with it briefly, then so be it.

Page 41746












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 41747

1 If not, then have it placed on the ELMO.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. General, have you got the document on the overhead projector?

4 A. Yes, I have, Mr. Milosevic.

5 Q. Is it document number 394?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Now, may we have your comments, please, on what Colonel Vukovic

8 says here about the fighting; how many -- when it happened and -- I see

9 here it says that the -- there were no inhabitants in the village, that

10 some parts of uniforms were found, et cetera.

11 A. Well, he's explaining the second day, that is to say the 26th, and

12 he is explaining what happened in the village of Donje Retimlje. Since

13 his unit was the one that carried this out, checked out the village, they

14 found that there were no inhabitants, but the village, with respect to the

15 yards and vineyards, there were a lot of shelters dug out and parts of

16 uniforms were found.

17 Q. But it says that the fighting went on for just half an hour and

18 that the Siptar terrorist forces withdrew.

19 A. Yes. They withdrew towards the vineyard and that there were

20 trenches without civilians.

21 Q. Is that the substance of his statement?

22 A. Yes. The greatest resistance was given from the surrounding hills

23 and from the mosque, et cetera.

24 Q. Very well. Now, in the next document we have a statement by

25 Colonel Stojan Konjikovac.

Page 41748

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the next document?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 395. I don't know if you have the

3 translation of that document or not. But here again we come across this

4 same problem, Mr. Robinson.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: There is no translation.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Today we are the 5th of July, and

7 the documents were sent in on the 20th of April for translation. I don't

8 have any complaints about the work of the service, I'm just saying that it

9 is a small service for it to be able to get through all this enormous

10 work. And as we can see, if we haven't got the translations of documents

11 today that were sent in on the 20th of April, then this is a great

12 impediment to our work.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. General, in the briefest possible terms, not to dwell on the

15 entire document, we have the activities of NATO aviation mentioned here,

16 and your unit had a conflict with the terrorist forces and at the same

17 time it had this problem with NATO aviation, NATO aeroplanes.

18 A. The problem with NATO aeroplanes was ongoing because there was

19 danger from the air throughout, continuous. I received signals through my

20 operative and I sent them on further to my units. So this in fact is a

21 statement by Colonel Konjikovac, who from the Suva Reka axis, and this is

22 on day 2, and we can see the deployment and distribution of his men here

23 in his unit, the NATO aviation was active twice; 1300 hours and later on.

24 So this other unit coming from Orahovac to join up with the Suva Reka unit

25 was ongoing. That was the axis. And on this particular day this unit,

Page 41749

1 according to Colonel Konjikovac's statement, the unit was successful

2 because it succeeded in approaching the village of Studencani and take

3 control -- taking control of part of the village of Studencani.

4 JUDGE KWON: General, what map is it that we are looking at now

5 which is on the ELMO? Do you know the tab number of the map?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you have the maps. This

7 particular map, as there are four maps in all, this is the map of the

8 second day, the second day of operations, and it is the Retimlje series.

9 For the 26th of March.

10 JUDGE KWON: Can you see the date?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there is a date there. The

12 date is the 26th of March.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Tab 391.

14 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. General, tell me, please, would you prefer us to go through these

17 few documents that contain statements by your officers? Do you want us to

18 go through them quicker?

19 A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, because we can see all that on the map. What

20 they're doing, all the commanders of the combat groups are in fact

21 explaining the operations of their units on that particular day.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, if you agree, we could

23 look at the map and go through the statements faster, reaching tab 425, I

24 think, and go through them that way.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 41750

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Now, General, go ahead. Please indicate the essential points in

4 the statements so that we can get through all these tabs until tab 425.

5 A. So these are statements of all the commanders for this particular

6 day, and we can see here the initial deployment in the morning at 6.00

7 a.m., then we can see the deployment at 12.00 a.m. 1200 hours, and

8 finally, the distribution at 1800 hours. And we can see the narrowing

9 down of this circle or, rather, the circle around the terrorists have

10 still not been formed, but we can see how the terrorists under -- how the

11 territory under the terrorists' control was reduced and grew smaller

12 during that particular day, the 26th of March.

13 Q. I'm not going to spend more time there now since Mr. Robinson

14 agreed that we could take these tabs as a group. I would like to draw

15 your attention to document 398 now, please. Lieutenant Colonel Radivoj

16 Paravanja says here that between Djakovica and Prizren, from Prizren

17 during the 26th, that is to say that same day, a large number of civilians

18 were seen to pass through.

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. The army didn't have any contact with those civilians. They were

21 moving towards the border, and on several occasions the medical corps

22 helped the civilians passing by that way. So that is what is said here.

23 And then he says that two of his soldiers were killed on that day as well.

24 Was that characteristic of the events that took place that day?

25 A. Well, for that day what was characteristic was that we saw these

Page 41751

1 groups of civilians appearing, which meant several vehicles, several dozen

2 vehicles, and they were groups, if we can put it that way. So he didn't

3 write this down -- he didn't tell us the direction they were coming from,

4 but as far as I know they were not from the territory of my area of

5 responsibility at all.

6 In tab 399, we have a statement by Major Sela [phoen] who entered

7 Donje Retimlje with his unit, and he speaks about the equipment that he

8 found there upon entering. Then the next one -- or, rather, I'd like to

9 place this next map on the ELMO for the following day, the 27th of March.

10 MR. NICE: The Court will of course be alive to the fact that all

11 the statements we've dealt with in the summary way just recently are

12 documents prepared for the commission which is subject to the general

13 observation, and I certainly would need to see them in translation if I am

14 to offer any useful questioning about them, and they will be a topic of

15 some concern in the questions I raise.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We're aware of that, Mr. Nice.

17 Yes, you may continue, Mr. Milosevic.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. General, you said you wished to place the second map on the ELMO

20 for the 27th of March.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Before we go on to that next map, in some of these tabs you have

23 the observations of your commanders to the effect that they are

24 encountering groups of civilians and that those civilians are moving

25 through their area of deployment and that they tried to tell them to get

Page 41752

1 away from the combat area and that they are letting them pass through. So

2 there are no excessive situations that we come across here.

3 A. These are groups of civilians who were -- which were encountered,

4 and they were found in the ditches between the vineyards, in the bushes

5 there, and they were moving towards Mala Krusa according to these

6 statements, and Velika Krusa too. So in addition to the groups that were

7 seen on the first day, according to the assessments of one of the

8 commanders, there were 500, and another man says there were between 6 and

9 700 individuals.

10 Q. In document 410, it says that groups of civilians appeared that

11 were moving from Djakovica and Orahovac towards the Albanian border.

12 A. That is already the 27th.

13 Q. The unit did not have any contact with the civilians, as per

14 orders, except a few times when the medical team helped those who required

15 assistance.

16 A. These were groups of civilians moving along the main road.

17 Q. All right.

18 JUDGE KWON: We don't have the translation of tab 404. Is that

19 your statement?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE KWON: In relation to what, please?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my statement in relation to

23 the 27th of March, the statement that goes along with this map.

24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 41753

1 Q. Please be so kind as to explain this map, General, briefly.

2 A. On the 27th -- during the 27th there was a link-up along the

3 Orahovac-Suva Reka area of combat groups 5 and 6 during the night, during

4 the previous night. A large number of terrorists and an unknown number of

5 inhabitants went to the village of Dobrodeljane. During the 27th there

6 was fighting going on with a few groups of terrorists that had basically

7 been broken up, mostly around the village of Neprebiste. During the

8 course of this day, this combat group 5 moved towards Dobrodeljane. All

9 units were practically given the assignment to return to their own areas

10 by the end of the day.

11 What is characteristic was that there was a large concentration of

12 population in the village of Mamusa. In relation to the population, I

13 think that there were so many refugees that they practically doubled the

14 population. They came from neighbouring villages.

15 It is a well-known fact that Mamusa is predominantly populated by

16 Turks. I was in contact with these persons, and they said that during the

17 previous days they had had problems with the terrorists, that they had

18 taken away their vehicles and some other things, that there was

19 mistreatment as well. At any rate, they had a major problem on their

20 hands. They had to take in so many refugees.

21 Before I left this village, I ordered that by the following day at

22 the latest the entire population had to return to their villages. I gave

23 tasks to all the commanders except for the commander of combat group 5,

24 who was blocking the terrorists at Dobrodeljane. Here the forces on the

25 road and those dealing with the blockade, they were supposed to go back to

Page 41754

1 their original areas.

2 Only as far as combat group 2 is concerned, since here near the

3 village of Mamusa a soldier had been killed, there was a certain problem

4 with a tank. In Donje Retimlje there was a group left and here above

5 Mamusa there was a group until the 28th, so that this tank could be

6 extracted. And then at 9.00 or 10.00 -- by 9.00 or 10.00 practically all

7 units had left the area except for combat group 5 which remained here

8 facing the village of Dobrodeljane.

9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before we go on, it was observed that at

10 line 14 of page 18 the witness may have said that he was in contact with

11 the residents of Mamusa and it simply got missed from the transcript, and

12 it would be quite an important point if he did say that and it might be

13 worth just checking on our observations. So he had contact with the

14 population is something that may have been said and was not recorded.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you confirm, General, that you did say that

16 you were in contact with the residents of Mamusa?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's also written in my

20 statement.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. General, have we gone through these statements of yours and have

24 we reached document 424 by now? They all have to do with those three days

25 and what was going on during those three days.

Page 41755

1 A. Yes. All of these statements have to do with that. 424 is

2 Randubrava.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, could you please have

4 these documents up to 424 admitted into evidence.

5 JUDGE KWON: We have similar documents until 434. Are you not

6 going to deal with the remainders from 424 to 434?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone is off, interpreter's note.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Up to 432 it's the way you said it,

9 Mr. Kwon, similar documents. I would like to deal with them as briefly as

10 possible. But as far as 424 is concerned I have decided to spend some

11 more time on that because it's a map. It has to do with Randubrava on the

12 25th of March. It speaks in itself as to what was going on at the time.

13 JUDGE KWON: We'll deal with the admissibility after you're going

14 through with all these documents.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Kwon.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. General, could you just briefly comment on the map that you

18 provided in document 424. Then also you have your own statement that you

19 signed in document 425.

20 A. As for this map, we can see in this area three areas where the

21 terrorists were grouped: Randubrava, Donje Retimlje, Gorane, and the

22 third one is Gornje Retimlje, or Retimlje. There was a concentration of

23 terrorist forces there. On the 25th practically these operations started.

24 However, as far as Retimlje is concerned, when we got there there was no

25 civilian population there. Randubrava was taken by our forces. Our

Page 41756

1 forces entered it on the 26th of March. I think around noon.

2 Q. General, in document 425 in your own statement I'm just going to

3 quote one sentence around the middle of the statement. It says: "There

4 were never any operations in areas where there was -- where there were

5 civilians."

6 A. What I said is correct. There were operations taking place in

7 front of Randubrava and Gornje Retimlje. You can see these vineyards. So

8 on these slopes where the trenches were. There were some operations or

9 fire was opened from howitzers and mortars at these trenches.

10 Q. All right. Can we go on now, General?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, Mr. Milosevic.

13 General, in all these places where you went and there was no

14 civilian population there, what is your information or understanding as to

15 what happened to the civilian population?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The civilian population -- well, it

17 cannot be seen on this map, but in 1997 and 1998, quite a few alternative

18 roads were built or, rather, local roads. As far as I know, the civilian

19 population from Randubrava went here, towards Mamusa, and they were in

20 Mamusa on the 27th when we got there. That pertains to part of the

21 civilian population. Yet another part probably went across Trudencen

22 [phoen] and Dobrodeljane to the area of Drenica near Malisevo, Banja

23 Belanica, that direction. But part of the civilian population was in

24 Mamusa, here, for sure.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why did the civilian population go to these

Page 41757

1 places?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1998 also that was customary

3 practice. When combat operations start, the terrorists often use the

4 civilian population to protect themselves from our forces, but the

5 civilian population could never move towards us. They always went

6 in-depth into the territory, where they were sent. The terrorists

7 referred to this as the protection of the population. In that way they

8 were allegedly protecting the population, but actually they were using

9 them as a human shield.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. General, a few moments ago we quoted from your statement, namely

13 that no fire was ever opened at areas where there were civilians. Now I'm

14 going to draw your attention to this indictment, paragraph 63(b) which has

15 to do with Prizren. It says that: "On the 25th of March, 1999, the

16 forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded the village of Pirane with tanks

17 and various military vehicles. The village was shelled and a number of

18 residents were killed. Thereafter, forces of the FRY and Serbia entered

19 the village and burned the houses of Kosovo Albanians. After the attack,

20 the remaining villagers left Pirane and went to surrounding villages."

21 That is related to what Mr. Robinson asked you a few minutes ago.

22 And then further on it is claimed there that in the town of

23 Landovica, an old mosque was burned and heavily damaged by forces of the

24 FRY and Serbia, and then some of the Kosovo Albanians fleeing towards

25 Srbica were killed or wounded by snipers. And then that the forces of the

Page 41758












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Page 41759

1 FRY and Serbia launched an offensive in the area of Srbica and shelled the

2 villages of Donje Retimlje and Randubrava. Kosovo Albanian villagers were

3 forced from their homes and sent to the Albanian border.

4 These are all events that you are talking about now and this is

5 what is written here in these accusations. Can you tell us -- or, rather,

6 what can you tell us about these assertions that I read to you?

7 A. As far as Landovica is concerned, we dealt with it in detail last

8 time when looking at the map.

9 Q. That's quite clear, General, but it's in this context, too, but I

10 just quoted this section and that's why I mentioned Landovica too. But

11 then there was reference to the village of Pirane, to surrounding it by

12 tanks, shelling the village when many residents were killed, the expulsion

13 of Albanians from their homes and sending them to the Albanian border and

14 things like that. There are several questions you have to deal with here.

15 Did you shell the village? Did you expel the Albanians from their homes?

16 Did you send them to the state border, and so on?

17 A. The village of Pirane is right here. You can see it on this map.

18 I keep hearing this term "surrounded the village." When that term

19 is used "surrounded," that would mean that the entire village would be

20 encircled. All these maps, including the main map, show that this village

21 was not encircled. This village is just by the road between Prizren and

22 Djakovica. The houses are right by the road. Especially this part here,

23 right next to the asphalt road. My commander of combat group 1 stated

24 that in the lower part of the village here, or close to the road, there

25 weren't any people there. There weren't any operations. The operations

Page 41760

1 started only in the upper part of the village, on the outskirts towards

2 the vineyards. That's a couple of hundred metres away from the asphalt

3 road where the terrorists took up their positions. But the main

4 operations during the course of the day were when a large group from these

5 vineyards -- and that's what this commander of mine refers to in his

6 statement, when from these vineyards, probably along this brook of Popluge

7 they came to the village of Pirane when the army had practically passed

8 the village moving in this direction.

9 Later on in this village there was fighting around the mosque,

10 because my column for supplies was attacked here on the road. That's a

11 terrorist group, and I think that it had some 20 or 30 men, and they

12 wanted to move from here to Drim and to the Albanian border. From the

13 area of the village of Pirane they wanted to move along the Drim and to

14 the Albanian border. That's when there was fighting around the mosque.

15 The mosque was used then in such a way. The forces that were here could

16 not deal with this terrorist group. They had to call in the reserve

17 force. It was only then that it was crushed. And another group went

18 along this brook and got to Medvece and the vineyard. Yes?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic was directing you specifically to

20 the allegations in the indictment since these are important to his case.

21 The three villages referred to as having been shelled on the 25th of March

22 by forces of the FRY and Serbia, the first is Pirane. Was Pirane shelled

23 by forces of the FRY and Serbia?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pirane was not shelled, but later

25 there was fire that was opened at some firing points. It was said that

Page 41761

1 many civilians were killed. What I assert is, in accordance with the

2 report of my commanders, not a single killed civilian was found in the

3 village of Pirane.

4 I don't know, when it says "many," what it actually means.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: So there was fighting in Pirane then.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: How did the fighting start?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already told you. In the

9 upper part of the village, in the part of the village that is close to the

10 asphalt road. There weren't any terrorist forces there. The civilian

11 population fled -- had fled earlier on. When the army arrived there,

12 there weren't any civilians in that part of the village. In the part of

13 the village where the last houses are, where the vineyards start, where

14 these slopes are, there were trenches that were dug, and shelters, and

15 there was fighting going on for that area. Later on during the course of

16 the day, there was fighting when a particular group to go through Pirane

17 to the Albanian border, when my column for supplies was attacked that was

18 there on the road. So twice during the course of that day, the 25th.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's also the allegation that the FRY and

20 Serbian forces burned houses of Kosovo Albanians, that is in Pirane.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some houses were hit by immediate

22 fire, but that was when those houses were being used as firing points.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Please, General, answer the question directly. Did anybody torch

25 Kosovo Albanian houses? The question is not whether you hit a firing

Page 41762

1 point or not. That is not in dispute. The allegation here is that our

2 soldiers torched Kosovo Albanian houses in those villages.

3 A. That is absolutely not true, because that is prohibited in the

4 strictest way.

5 Q. Never mind that. Never mind what is prohibited or not. Did they

6 torch houses?

7 A. Absolutely not. The soldiers did not torch houses.

8 Q. Thank you. I want an absolutely clear answer.

9 We have dealt with Landovica.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You have explained that those soldiers went to the village, to

12 that shop. I don't think that anybody would call that an attack if four

13 soldiers went down to the shop.

14 Then there is an allocation of shelling of Donje Retimlje and

15 Randubrava. You showed us the map and you explained the positions. Were

16 these villages shelled?

17 A. The villages were not shelled. Let us deal with the concept of

18 shelling. Before Randubrava village and before Retimlje village, there

19 were third-degree trenches, that is complete protection, plus there were

20 minefields. That area was targeted, not the village itself.

21 Q. You targeted KLA positions?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were there any aims targeting apart from KLA firing positions?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Thank you, General. Let us clarify the rest of what is written in

Page 41763

1 this paragraph related to Prizren where your own command was located.

2 "From the 28th of March, 1999, in the city of Prizren, forces of

3 the FRY and Serbia went from house to house, ordering Kosovo Albanian

4 residents to leave. They were forced to join convoys of vehicles and

5 persons travelling on foot to the Albanian border. En route, members of

6 the forces of the FRY and Serbia beat and killed Kosovo Albanian men,

7 separated Kosovo Albanian women from the convoy and sexually assaulted the

8 women. At the border, all personal documents were taken away by forces of

9 the FRY and Serbia."

10 Now, you have heard all these allegations that you went from house

11 to house in the city of Prizren, the old town where your command

12 was, that you forced them to go to the Albanian border and that en route

13 you beat and killed them, that you separated women to rape them, I

14 suppose, along the road. Please, General, can you tell us something about

15 these allegations?

16 A. All I can tell you is that these accusations are monstrous and

17 that none of them are true. My command was located in Prizren. By this

18 time, it was no longer in the barracks because the barracks had been

19 bombed several times. So my command was located in the town of Prizren.

20 Q. The very same town where Albanians are expelled, beaten, and

21 killed?

22 A. My command was in the middle of this population made up of

23 Albanians and Turks.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was there any other FRY and Serbian force or

25 group in the area apart from yours?

Page 41764

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this place there were only my

2 forces and the local MUP, the Ministry of the Interior. No other groups,

3 no other forces. And there were civilian defence units and civilian

4 protection units, but they were mobilised later. So my command was in the

5 town of Prizren. Prizren is the second or third biggest town in Kosovo

6 and Metohija.

7 Concerning what is said here about the destruction of houses, in

8 total about ten houses were destroyed, and the Ministry of the Interior

9 investigated each of these houses. More than a dozen houses, on the other

10 hand, were destroyed by NATO bombing.

11 When I was passing through Prizren, it was absolutely intact, and

12 there is video footage showing that Prizren had a large concentration of

13 population not only from Prizren itself but also from surrounding

14 villages. The residents of those villages spent the worst days of the war

15 in the town.

16 Now, looking at this road, from Prizren to the Albanian border

17 there are 14 kilometres. This entire road up to Prizren was the area of

18 combat deployment, combat disposition of my unit. So if anybody were to

19 kill civilians along that axis -- so from Prizren to the border, that's 14

20 kilometres. You have already seen from the previous maps that my

21 battalions were deployed here. All that was happening here certainly was

22 seen by one of my commanding officers. There were cases, maybe about ten,

23 involving soldiers and columns of refugees that didn't -- were not

24 actually moving along. They were standing on the road for several days

25 because of a delay that occurred when Albania stopped admitting them.

Page 41765

1 Until that time, there was no registration of the refugees, but when the

2 registration started, that caused the delay, and they stood on the road

3 for several days.

4 So those cases I was speaking about, some soldiers approached the

5 column and took some money from the refugees. Those soldiers were

6 arrested and court-martialed.

7 As for rapes, that is blatantly untrue. In the town of Prizren,

8 there was one case of rape perpetrated by a soldier of mine from the

9 Djakovica garrison. He was arrested and court-martialed. And there was

10 another rape in the area of Djakovica, Crmljani village. Those civilians

11 reported that to the police, the police reported it to the army, and since

12 my military police unit has authority over that territory, they found the

13 two women who were victims, and despite the fact that it all happened in

14 the middle of a war with constant bombing, all the measures envisaged by

15 the law were taken and the perpetrators were taken to Pristina to be

16 court-martialed.

17 So allegations of abuse in proximity of the road, and rapes, it

18 simply makes me shudder. This fabrication.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Thank you, General. We have gone through this. That was the

21 location of your command. You were there together with your troops. You

22 described in detail even the incidents that were later prosecuted.

23 Now, just one question about Pirane village. Witness Rahim Latifi

24 from Prizren testified here earlier. That's on page 3631 of the

25 transcript. I will quote --

Page 41766

1 MR. NICE: Date, please.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The date, Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I didn't note down

4 the date of this testimony, but it can be established easily.

5 JUDGE KWON: 22nd of April.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kwon.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So Rahim Latifi from Prizren testified that on the 25th of March,

9 1999, in Pirane, municipality of Prizren, the Pirane village surrendered

10 to the Serbian police and Serbian army, whereupon Serbian forces torched

11 houses in the village while the civilian population fled to Mamusa and

12 Srbica. You did explain that the civilians fled to Mamusa and Srbica.

13 Then he says that the village had surrendered to you but you torched it.

14 Let me read what else he said. That's on page 3633. "[In

15 English] And by 4.00 of the next day, the 25th of March, 1999, his village

16 was surrounded by the army and MUP units, by tanks, various military

17 vehicles, and lot of personnel."

18 [Interpretation] As you see, what he says here is almost identical

19 to the allegations in the indictment and he says: "At 8.00 in the morning

20 [In English] the first house in Pirane was set on fire, and at

21 approximately the same time, the Serbs started shelling the village."

22 [Interpretation] So the first house was torched, and he says also

23 that at the same time Serbs started shelling the village.

24 Now, please, General, just in relation to this witness and these

25 claims, just a few words although we have already explained the whole

Page 41767

1 situation in detail.

2 A. So a witness from Prizren is explaining what happened in Pirane.

3 Q. Well, he could have happened to be there. Is any of this true?

4 A. Well, look at this: He says the village had surrendered [as

5 interpreted]. If the civilian population had been in the village, how

6 would have surrendered to us? If they had placed themselves under the

7 protection of the army, they would have probably been removed for the

8 duration of the operations and then returned. But how come they first

9 surrendered to us and then they left for Srbica and Mamusa? Srbica, by

10 the way, is in a completely different direction from Pirane towards --

11 JUDGE KWON: There seems to be a misinterpretation. The question

12 was put as the Pirane village surrendered to the Serbian police, but the

13 actual transcript says his village was surrounded by the army and MUP

14 units, not surrendered. I'm reading from the transcript. It's electronic

15 page 3625, line 14.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it does say his village was surrounded by

17 the army and MUP units.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I was quoting: "[In English]

19 By 4.00 of the next day, 25th of March, his village was surrounded by the

20 army and MUP units, by tanks, various military vehicles, and a lot of

21 personnel.

22 "At 8.00 in the morning, the first house in Pirane was set on

23 fire, and at approximately the same time, the Serbs started shelling the

24 village."

25 JUDGE KWON: That's correct, but which was interpreted as far as

Page 41768

1 this transcript shows, it was interpreted as "surrendered." So there may

2 be confusion on the part of the witness. So could you answer again,

3 General Delic.

4 Q. So the village was surrounded, what you just heard. I quoted it

5 again.

6 When you torched the first house, you shelled the village

7 simultaneously. And then it says that the village was burnt down to the

8 ground. "[In English] Razed to the ground."

9 A. The term to surround, in our military terminology, when you

10 surround something, that means that is it completely encircled from all

11 sides.

12 Q. You have explained this. But this is witness testimony. The

13 witness says that the village was surrounded and then burned down to the

14 ground, to the ground.

15 A. First of all, it's not true that it was surrounded. Second, it's

16 not true that it was burned. That village still exists. It is still

17 standing in the same place.

18 In the course of the day, there were operations twice in the upper

19 part of the village. So it's not true that it was surrounded and it's not

20 true that it was burned down.

21 Even later on, up to June, there were ambushes set for either army

22 or police forces in that village, all the way up to June.

23 Q. Very well. By the way, earlier when you were answering a question

24 about Prizren, which was intact except for about a hundred houses that

25 were bombed by NATO, and Prizren is a large town, it was not destroyed by

Page 41769

1 the time you left it. And when did you leave?

2 A. 14th of June.

3 Q. That means after the end of the war.

4 A. Yes. That's when Prizren started to be destroyed, especially the

5 old town.

6 Q. When was that? When you left.

7 A. It started already on the 14th, around that date. The peak was

8 the 17th March, the year before last.

9 Q. General, I will now read to you part of the transcript of Witness

10 K32. He testified on the 17th of June, 2001, and the 22nd of June, 2002,

11 or, rather, from the 17th to the 22nd June. That is what I have noted

12 down. I'm going to quote this to you because this witness mentions you

13 directly. That's Witness K32. That's a protected witness so I cannot

14 read out his name but that was how he was identified.

15 He also mentions Jeskovo, and you've explained Jeskovo to us very

16 clearly and properly. This is what he says. It's on page 8232: "[In

17 English] Did something happen with respect to Jeskovo?"

18 "Yes. In the morning, we were on the alert and we were taken to a

19 village towards Dragash. They did not tell us where we were going. I

20 just know that we surrounded a village. And there were 1.000 soldiers and

21 300 policemen there altogether, surrounding that village, and allegedly

22 there were terrorists in that village."

23 [Interpretation] Now the question:

24 "[In English] Did you see Delic present during that particular

25 operation?

Page 41770












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Page 41771

1 "Yes, he was present.

2 "Can you tell us where you were in relation to him and what, if

3 anything, you heard or saw that relates to the matter now before the

4 Court?

5 "I saw Delic as we were entering the village itself. I saw him.

6 He was near me. I think he was about 20 or 30 metres away from me. As we

7 were entering the village, we said that we should not let a single person

8 remain alive."

9 [Interpretation] Then there's an intervention by Mr. May. He

10 says: "That's not very clear. Can you clarify?"

11 Mr. Ryneveld wishes to clarify and asks:

12 "[In English] Did you see Delic -- I'm sorry. Who was -- were you

13 near your particular combat unit commander at any point?"

14 "At one moment towards the end of the operation, I was near my

15 very own commander, the commander of my company, who was listening to his

16 orders.

17 "How did he get these orders transmitted? Did he have a radio

18 with him?

19 "Yes. He had a radio transmitter with him."

20 [Interpretation] Then he goes on to explain that everyone, every

21 commander of the company had a transmitter.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Time for a question now, Mr. Milosevic. The

23 witness now has the substance of the matter.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So this witness, too, speaks about Jeskovo, and you explained to

Page 41772

1 us -- you've already explained the operation to us, the casualties and so

2 on. The witness explained that allegedly you said that the terrorists

3 were there and that he had heard you say nobody must be left alive.

4 Now, you've heard what the witness claims.

5 A. May I use the map to explain this? I think it's important.

6 Q. Yes, General. Please go ahead. You can place whichever map you

7 like on the easel.

8 A. This was Witness K32, was it?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. And the other one last time, what was that?

11 Q. K41.

12 A. Right, K41. He was in the logistics company, supplies company,

13 and this K32 witness says allegedly terrorists.

14 Q. Now, you explained Jeskovo operation to us and in your answers you

15 even quoted the verification mission as well as their own commander, the

16 KLA commander who said that their special unit was killed there.

17 A. Those two witnesses the K -- the two Ks, cover each other with

18 respect to the crimes that they engaged in later on. Both of them. I

19 know both of these witnesses, but that's not important now. Anyway, K32

20 came to this Tribunal to confirm what K41 said. That was the only reason

21 he came to testify, because at one time after he had committed a crime, he

22 took refuge in the other man's house, and he was a protected witness. He

23 didn't dare come to this Court because there was a warrant for his arrest

24 put out. And he wanted to use this Court to be protected from the crime

25 that he had committed.

Page 41773

1 So here on this map, here we can see -- this is Jeskovo. This

2 unit where K32 was in, as well as K41, it moved along this axis, in this

3 direction. The unit didn't enter Jeskovo because in Jeskovo it was the

4 police units which entered, coming from this side here, from the direction

5 of the village of Ljubicevo, and this area here, the part of the army

6 which I was with. So we went down the village of Jeskovo directly, and

7 the witness could see me somewhere around here only in the village at the

8 entrance to the village of Hoca Zagradska, and he could see me -- or,

9 rather, any soldier could see me, each and every soldier could see me

10 because I stood there waiting for all the units to assemble and for them

11 all to move along this route to Prizren. And I stayed there -- I was one

12 of the last to stay there. So he could possibly have seen me late in the

13 evening when the units were gathering together and preparing to depart for

14 Prizren.

15 His unit didn't take any part in the fighting at all. It was

16 these units, the police units and this one unit that was here, and part of

17 the unit which came from Leskovac, the village of Leskovac, which was in

18 this area here. Those were the only units which clashed with the

19 terrorists.

20 Q. All right. Fine, General. Now, who were the people who fell

21 casualty in Jeskovo, who were killed in Jeskovo?

22 A. If you want me to, I can take out a list or, rather, take out

23 something that the OSCE mission wrote about it and what the commander

24 wrote about it, the commander of this battalion, the 125th Brigade

25 Battalion.

Page 41774

1 Q. You mean the KLA commander?

2 A. Yes, that's what I mean.

3 Q. And what the OSCE mission wrote?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right, General. Now, since you have two witnesses here, we're

6 dealing with two witnesses here who claim what they claim, it wouldn't be

7 a bad idea if you were to read out both those things, both those documents

8 to us.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, it's well past time for the break.

10 We'll have to hear from the general when we return. We will adjourn for

11 20 minutes.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because of the answer, Mr. Robinson,

13 to save time, can I just read out the latter portion? There are ten more

14 lines from the transcript of K32 witness transcript.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think it is -- unless there is a particular

16 point, we are about ten minutes after the --

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- the time for the break.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No problem, fine.


21 MR. NICE: [Microphone not activated].

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.

Page 41775

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. General, before you go on, to save time I'm going to read out the

3 rest of the transcript that I wanted to quote for you to be able to answer

4 taking all this together. And it is page 8234. The question that is

5 being asked the witness is this:

6 "[In English] Did you hear the order?

7 "Yes, I heard that order.

8 "Who gave it?

9 "Who gave it?

10 "Bozidar Delic.

11 "What happened next?

12 "When the tank fired a shell from the neighbouring village, then

13 it exploded in this village. And then our commanders ordered us to fire

14 at the village. And that was a pleasure for them.

15 "Did they follow his order?

16 "Yes. They followed every order. That one too. ... We were

17 shooting for about half an hour, I think. ... He ordered to stop firing."

18 [Interpretation] Then on the next page, and I'll skip over a

19 portion, it says:

20 "After the firing took place, sir, did you hear Delic give a

21 further order?

22 "[In English] He said, after one hour, that we should move towards

23 the village, that we should go down towards the village. As we were going

24 down, somebody started firing again, and we continued to shoot again. It

25 was brief, for about five or ten minutes. Everybody was shooting.

Page 41776

1 "The shooting stopped and no one could be heard shooting, and we

2 started moving towards the village. When we entered the village, that's

3 when I got close to Bozidar Delic, and I personally heard him say that

4 when we entered the village, that we should make an effort not to let

5 anyone remain alive, anyone we find in the village.

6 "Then when entering the village, the police captured an Albanian

7 who was getting out of the house, and he was shouting, 'I surrender. I

8 surrender.' But he had no time to surrender. They shot him in the ears

9 and they killed him immediately. First a soldier shot who was near the

10 policeman, but the policeman shouted at the soldier, 'Why didn't you let

11 me shoot at him at that moment?' I saw that very well. The policeman

12 took out a knife and cut off his ears, and that -- that is where the

13 operation practically ended."

14 [Interpretation] Then it goes on to say:

15 "Then we received orders to get ready to go to the barracks. I

16 saw many dead bodies in the village; seven to be exact. [In English] I

17 saw seven, but there were more.

18 "When we returned to the barracks, the next day I heard there

19 were about 30 persons killed. Allegedly they were terrorists. I saw

20 civilians. Nobody wore a uniform. None of them did. And the next day,

21 the police gathered these dead bodies."

22 [Interpretation] So there we have the description provided by this

23 witness K32. I read it out to you, all the essential points.

24 Now, General, as briefly as possible, please respond to what this

25 man said?

Page 41777

1 A. Let me say that the witness from start to finish is speaking

2 nonsense. He's talking nonsense. Apart from the fact that he was in the

3 region, nothing else is correct. He belonged to the supplies battalion,

4 the Logistics Battalion, which is not a combat unit, and with my whole

5 brigade and leading them to battle it was a battalion in the rear, and

6 that would be ludicrous, for starters.

7 Now, I'd like to read out what it says here or, rather, the OSCE

8 centre in Prizren, what it wrote with respect to this action and what the

9 commander of the 2nd Battalion of the 125th Brigade wrote, that is to say

10 the KLA one, Safir [phoen] Berisha, in his book "The Road To Freedom."

11 "The Regional Centre of the OSCE the KVM in Prizren commented on

12 the situation by saying that the KLA infiltrated into Jeskovo a village

13 that had been left empty a week before that. The population of Hoca

14 Zagradska informed the OSCE about their concern and the KLA withdrew. The

15 OSCE or the KVM informed the KLA that the local inhabitants and the

16 security forces considered their presence in the area provocation. Along

17 with that, the OSCE of the KVM in Prizren noted that the Serb forces

18 during this operation limited their fighting to Jeskovo south of Prizren.

19 The other villages were occupied but were not damaged. The police on the

20 12th of March called upon OSCE teams of the KVM to visit Jeskovo village

21 which was the centre of the police operation on the 11th of March. The

22 verifiers were able to see the bodies of seven armed persons wearing black

23 KLA uniforms. According to the police reports, all of them were killed

24 from firearms during the security operation. The teams were not able to

25 establish whether the members of the KLA were killed in the places where

Page 41778

1 they lay. The verifiers were also shown a mortar with ammunition ready

2 for use and other ammunition in boxes. It was established that from --

3 that the mortars had been fired from.

4 "During this investigation, the OSCE verifiers noted that they saw

5 20 to 25 members they say of special police combat units. That's what

6 they call them, but they were in fact members of the PJP. And the

7 commander of this 2nd other battalion --"

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think rather than read out what others said,

9 you have here specific allegations made by a Prosecution witness in

10 relation to you. The Prosecution said that, among other things, you said

11 your troops were not to let anybody remain alive in the village. One

12 person was shot, his ears were cut off. Those are the allegations that

13 you should answer. I think that's what Mr. Milosevic wants to hear from

14 you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that what this

16 witness said is just absurd and nonsense and that it has nothing to do

17 with the actual state of affairs.

18 Now, what I read out is what other people said about the

19 situation, because on the previous day we went through my report about

20 this specific operation, and now I have read out what the local centre of

21 the OSCE noted, and they were also present throughout the time.

22 Now, if you take a look at this map here, this is where I was --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: What were you reading from, what document?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was reading from a book, "As Seen,

25 As Told," from the Fund for Humanitarian Right -- Law. Page 341.

Page 41779


2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And if I might be allowed to read

3 out just five lines from this book, by this commander, "The Road to

4 Freedom."

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Go ahead, General.

7 A. It is page 99 of the book "Put Sloboda," "The Road to Freedom,"

8 written by Safir Berisha.

9 MR. NICE: Do we have that --

10 JUDGE KWON: Do we have that document in the exhibits?

11 MR. NICE: I'm not sure and I'm not sure whether --

12 JUDGE KWON: The Road to Freedom.

13 MR. NICE: It sounds familiar. I'm not sure if we have it as an

14 exhibit. No doubt inquiries can be made. If the witness is going to read

15 a section from the book we should have it in translation. If he's only

16 going to read from a section of the book and it isn't an exhibit we should

17 have access to its totality at some stage, preferably sooner rather than

18 later.

19 JUDGE KWON: Copies should be handed over to the Bench as well.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Read the particular section and then copies can

21 be made, can be placed -- have you read the five lines?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, read the five lines.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the commander saying this who

25 on the 14th of March came from Albania. "On the 15th of March I heard a

Page 41780

1 lot of touching information. I learnt about the heroic death of many

2 comrades, heroes who had proved themselves earlier on. They were real

3 heroes. Jefir Beskic [phoen], Hajdra Sala [phoen]." He goes on to list

4 them: "Feri Susurri [phoen], Tahir Gashi, Skender Latifi, Umerdin Cengaj

5 [phoen], Ajadinje Zahiri [phoen] and Hami [phoen] Thaci. They are

6 soldiers belonging to the special unit of the 125th Brigade of the

7 Operative Zone of Pastrik. It was a great loss indeed because the

8 fighting was head to head at a distance of 15 to 20 metres."

9 That's what I wanted to read out.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. In the OSCE document that is quoted in the book that you refer to,

13 and in this document written by their commander, there is reference to

14 members of the special units of the KLA.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And who were they fighting at hand to hand? They were the ones

17 that your soldiers were fighting; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. He says that he did not see anyone in uniform, that they were

20 civilians.

21 A. The village of Jeskovo, we had that information, was totally

22 abandoned by the civilian population. As a matter of fact, I think that

23 the civilian population was sent away from that village so that a

24 terrorist base could be established there.

25 MR. NICE: I wonder if the witness could place on the overhead

Page 41781

1 projector the passage from As Seen, As Told that he says is page 341,

2 because I can't find it myself at the moment and it will be too late by

3 the time we get to cross-examination to pursue the point.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let that be done.

5 MR. NICE: The Court is of course in possession of this document

6 in English. If Mr. Prendergast could run back on the document to the next

7 heading. That's probably the easiest way in which we could find the

8 parallel English page numbering. Zur/Vrbnica, so if we can find that in

9 the English. It appears to be on page 340.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, tell me, this activity of

13 Mr. Nice's, does that not belong to his cross-examination? I don't know

14 why he's interrupting my examination-in-chief now instead of

15 cross-examining about this. What he is supposed to do is

16 cross-examination.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not really. It assists the Bench as well,

18 Mr. Milosevic.

19 MR. NICE: Indeed, if the accused was presenting his evidence

20 properly he would have attended to the requirements of those who are

21 trying to follow the evidence.

22 I think that what he was reading from can indeed be found on page

23 340 in the English.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's it, yes. Yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. If we've cleared that up

Page 41782












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 41783

1 that it can be found in English, I mean the witness has already read it

2 out, so let's not dwell on it any longer.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can proceed now, Mr. Milosevic.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So let us conclude with regard to this, General. Was there a

6 single civilian there when you intervened in Jeskovo?

7 A. In the village of Jeskovo there was not a single civilian.

8 Q. Was there a unit of the KLA there that was shooting at you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is there anything correct in what K41 and K32 said?

11 A. The only thing that is correct is that they were within their unit

12 and that in -- on that day they were in that area. They themselves were

13 not in that village. When the unit was gathering, they were in Hoca

14 Zagradska, and that's where they managed to see me. The distance from me

15 to them is about three kilometres.

16 Q. Well, he claims that he was right next to you, 20 metres away.

17 A. Well, I'm telling you. Three kilometres is the distance from the

18 place where that unit was to the place where I was.

19 Q. And that unit is their quartermaster's unit, right?

20 A. Yes, a quartermaster's unit that did not have any combat tasks but

21 they were only supposed to block the road so that the terrorists could not

22 go to Zur.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, can you offer any explanation as to why

24 K32 should have come to this Court and present what you have said is a

25 pack of lies?

Page 41784

1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before he does, the Court will of course

2 be sensitive to the fact that there have been some identifying information

3 provided by the witness. If he's going to go any further, although I'm

4 reluctant to ask it, it would be preferable in closed session. As

5 indicated, I much prefer it to be in open session and it may be the

6 witness can be alerted to the need to be able to separate his answers out

7 if any part of his answer would give identification.


9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll remain in open session, but, General, this

11 is a protected witness, and you're an intelligent person, so be sensitive

12 to that.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course. Of course I'm not

14 going to disclose any information that -- well, anyway, as for the motives

15 of this witness, this witness was in the same unit like Witness K41. This

16 witness perpetrated a grave crime, and he was on the run after the

17 commission of that crime. He established contact with K41, and he hid at

18 his place for a few months. So he was out of reach as far as the police

19 were concerned. That is why he could not come to this Court, because the

20 police would arrest him since did he not have a passport. That is why he

21 testified via videolink.

22 Actually, he testified precisely to confirm the allegations made

23 by Witness K41, who protected him at the time from police prosecution due

24 to the crime he had committed. He was probably given a promise that if he

25 testified, he would perhaps be removed from the country and that he would

Page 41785

1 get away from the arm of justice.

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, I didn't follow when he mentioned

3 videolink. Can you help us?

4 MR. NICE: Not at the moment. It's not my immediate recollection.

5 But -- it's not our immediate recollection. We can easily check on the

6 transcript. I just --

7 JUDGE KWON: I don't think so.

8 MR. NICE: I think that's in error. But it may be something that

9 I'll pursue in cross-examination.

10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Delic, did you refer to K41 or K32 when you said

11 that he lost -- he didn't have a passport and who committed this great

12 crime?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Witness K41. That's the one who

14 testified first, as far as I know, who testified here first. He was

15 present. The second witness, I think that's K32, was not present. Not to

16 say anything else about them now.

17 MR. KAY: K41 was videolink, 5th of September. I think it was 5th

18 of September. 5th of September, 2002, with facial distortion, pseudonym.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Kay.

21 Mr. Milosevic.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. General, you've already mentioned that you were in Prizren. Where

24 were you in town itself? You actually explained all of that. But what

25 I'd like to quote here is another witness, another witness of Mr. Nice's.

Page 41786

1 This is witness Xhafer Beqiraj, from Prizren, who, in his testimony on the

2 19th of April, 2002, transcript page 3510, said that two policemen in

3 regular police uniforms with automatic weapons barged into his house and

4 gave them five minutes to leave the house or otherwise they would be

5 killed. They were told that they should go to Albania, and they were

6 ordered to go along the road to Albania.

7 So there is repetition in this testimony, too, that somebody was

8 expelling Albanians from their houses in Prizren, forcing them to go to

9 Albania. He said that they came to see him, gave him five minutes.

10 On this page 3510, he says that: "[In English] Of particular note

11 is these people were being escorted by mixed forces of police,

12 paramilitary, including regular VJ soldiers, and they were mobile in

13 military and police vehicles. Later, he describes leaving Prizren when he

14 indicated that the police were shooting their automatic weapons, trying to

15 frighten the residents, and describes them at 5.00 on a particular day

16 there was a knock on the door and police wearing regular uniform, and at

17 the time there were about 50 people in his house," et cetera, et cetera,

18 [Interpretation] what I've already mentioned to you.

19 "[In English] He describes the insults and the fact that they were

20 instructed to go to Albania."

21 [Interpretation] You were there at the time. You spoke about it a

22 few moments ago. What can you say about the statement made by this

23 witness, who is not a protected witness? Xhafer Beqiraj is his name.

24 A. My command post was at several different places in Prizren during

25 the war, but at the beginning of the war it was here, near Sinan Pasha's

Page 41787

1 mosque. Later on it moved on. Except for the days when there was combat

2 and when I was absent, I could observe such things taking place. I do not

3 preclude the possibility that some individual could have said something to

4 an Albanian with whom he had quarreled or whatever, but that there was

5 something organised by the police, and the army is referred to here as

6 well, that the Albanian population was expelled and escorted to the

7 border, I cannot except that and that's not true.

8 My soldiers, and I've already said that, were near the place

9 called Zur, all the way up to the border, but they were not there in order

10 to escort Albanians. They could be seen around here depending on their

11 deployment, but they were in this area precisely for the purpose of

12 preventing the civilian population of getting into minefields that were by

13 the road in this area, up to the village of Zur. The army was there only

14 to protect the civilian population.

15 Q. General, had something like that happened, people breaking into

16 houses, you say that you and your command were in the heart of town, that

17 somebody was barging into Albanian houses and expelling them. Would you

18 have to know about that?

19 A. I would have to know about that. Secondly, I don't know which

20 part of down that Albanian lived in, but police station is here, on the

21 outskirts of Prizren, when you leave Prizren towards Albania. So any

22 citizen could report that kind of problem.

23 For example, various reports -- problems were reported, problems

24 of the kind that do happen in towns, and the police would react. And then

25 if the army was doing something, it could be reported either to the army

Page 41788

1 or to the police.

2 Q. All right, General. Let's go back to your documents, the ones

3 that you gave here.

4 We have already dealt with the map of Randubrava in tab 424 and

5 your statement in 425.

6 In relation to this statement of yours in tab 425, have you got

7 anything to add?

8 A. No. That's it. We've already dealt with it, and it has to do

9 with Randubrava.

10 Q. All right. In 426, you have the statement of Captain Milovan

11 Zivkovic, who also says: "We never opened fire if we had information that

12 the civilian population was in a village." He says what you said too.

13 A. With his platoon, he was moving in the direction of Randubrava.

14 Q. So his testimony comes from the actual site.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Now we're going to move on to Suva Reka. First of

17 all, please describe in the briefest possible terms this map which is in

18 document 427, and that has to do with Suva Reka on the 25th of March, as

19 far as I can see on the map, the date on the map itself.

20 A. This map pertains to the 25th of March, 1999. It depicts several

21 elements. Combat group 5, on the 25th, around 3.00 or ten past three left

22 the barracks. From -- they left from the area where the barracks were.

23 Here in Toplicane they were there at 3.40. Then around 4.10 it was at the

24 entrance to Suva Reka. At 4.40 it passed through Suva Reka and here in

25 front of the village of Rastane it had combat deployment vis-a-vis the

Page 41789

1 village of Studencani at 600 hours, and at 7.00 the combat operation

2 started. That is what can be seen on this map.

3 Q. General, you described how units moved in that area and very

4 briefly what they did. Now, before I put further questions to you, I'm

5 going to quote what it says in the indictment, in 63(d) in relation to

6 Suva Reka. It says here -- please listen carefully to see what this is

7 all about. It says there that on the morning of the 25th of March 1999,

8 forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded the town of Suva Reka.

9 First of all tell me, General, was Suva Reka under our control?

10 Was there our police station there? Were our authorities there?

11 A. Yes, in Suva Reka there weren't any members of the army because

12 it's not an army location, but there was the police force and there were

13 police checkpoints at the entrance and the exit.

14 Q. All right. Tell me, then, what would the point be for you to

15 surround a town that is under our control?

16 A. Well, it's simply incorrect. That can be seen from this map.

17 Q. So this first statement that you surrounded Suva Reka is

18 incorrect.

19 A. Totally.

20 Q. Then it says: "During following days, police officers went from

21 house to house, threatening, assaulting and killing Kosovo Albanian

22 residents, and removing many of the people from their homes at gunpoint."

23 That's what's written here. You've explained where you were on

24 the 25th of March. We see your units on the map here. Your units went

25 through Suva Reka; is that right?

Page 41790

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is there any truth in what they say here?

3 A. There is no truth in it. Let me just add one more thing. Only my

4 unit went through Suva Reka. On the other side of Suva Reka, in the area

5 of Dulje, there was a combat group from the 243rd Brigade which had a

6 task, but to the north of my unit, if I can put it that way. That is

7 where it was carrying out combat operations. Here there are also

8 vineyards above Suva Reka.

9 Q. All right. But they didn't come close to Suva Reka?

10 A. No, they did not.

11 Q. All right. Now, see what it says further on here. It says:

12 "Many houses and shops belonging to Kosovo Albanians were set on fire and

13 a mosque in Suva Reka was damaged. The women, children, and elderly were

14 sent away by the police and then a number of the men were killed by the

15 forces of the FRY and Serbia. The Kosovo Albanians were forced to flee,

16 making their way in trucks, tractors and trailers towards the border with

17 Albania."

18 So it says women, children, and elderly were sent away, and then

19 you, the forces of the FRY and Serbia, killed a number of the men, and

20 they were forced to flee, making their way in trucks, tractors, and

21 trailers towards Albania. Please, is there any truth in these

22 allegations?

23 A. Many terms that are military terms are used here and that simply

24 do not hold water in this context.

25 Q. I'm only interested in facts. Are any facts here correct,

Page 41791

1 regardless of the terminology used? You passed through Suva Reka

2 precisely on that day, the 25th of March?

3 A. Actually, my combat group passed through. I passed through later.

4 Q. When you say "you," I mean units under your command. When did you

5 pass through?

6 A. Well, I passed through when it was already the beginning of April,

7 and it was only once. But on the 25th of April, a lieutenant colonel of

8 mine, head of operations, combat group 5, Lieutenant Colonel Stojan

9 Konjikovac passed through.

10 In paragraph 63(e), we have a description of an event of the 31st

11 of March, where it says that: "About 200 Kosovo Albanians were displaced

12 from villages in the Suva Reka municipality gathered near Belanica. The

13 following day forces of the FRY and Serbia shelled Belanica, forcing the

14 displaced persons to flee toward the Albanian border." Correction of the

15 number 80.000 Kosovo Albanians were displaced from villages.

16 So it says that on the 31st of March, you displaced these people

17 who had gathered near Belanica.

18 A. Belanica is towards the north-west, somewhere in that area. There

19 did occur some combat operations, but the entire municipality of Suva Reka

20 does not have a population of 80.000. So I think this is an incorrect

21 number. There's no way 80.000 people could have gathered in a place like

22 that.

23 Second, to shell such a large group of citizens would have

24 resulted in hundreds if not thousands of dead.

25 Q. Do you have any information about operations targeting civilians

Page 41792

1 in that area?

2 A. No. There were no forces of mine in the area of Belanica. At

3 that time my forces were closer to Malisevo. And the inhabitants of that

4 area, a part of them went to Suva Reka and continued on to Prizren,

5 whereas another part passed by my units along the road from Orahovac to

6 Prizren.

7 Q. It goes on to say in 66(d) that: "On or about the 26th of March,

8 1999, in the morning hours, forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded the

9 vicinity of the Berisha family compound in the town of Suva Reka. Tanks

10 were positioned close to, and pointing in the direction of, the houses.

11 The forces of the FRY and Serbia ordered the occupants out of one of the

12 houses. Men were separated from women and children and six members of the

13 family were killed. The remaining family members were herded towards a

14 coffee shop by forces of the FRY and Serbia. Those family members were

15 herded, along with three extended Berisha family groups, into the coffee

16 shop. Forces of the FRY and Serbia then walked into the coffee shop and

17 opened fire on the persons inside. Explosives were also thrown into the

18 shop. At least 44 civilians were killed and others were seriously wounded

19 during this action." And so on.

20 Now, tell me, please -- let me just see what it says here below.

21 We have also heard testimony from a witness who is a member of that

22 family, Shyhrete Berisha, who said that the police barged into the house

23 of Vesel Berisha, fired inside, after which a fire started. One of them

24 was killed. Nexhat Berisha was killed and the rest fled towards the

25 coffee shop where other Berisha family were killed. Then the police came

Page 41793

1 after the killing of some civilians. When they entered the cafe, the

2 police started firing, and then threw hand grenades, and then they were

3 later thrown into a truck. That's transcript page 7900, Agron Berisha,

4 25th of March, 2002, transcript 975 and 984.

5 Let me not quote all this in detail. I gave you certain portions

6 of the testimony.

7 Now, on page 7901, it says: "On the morning of the 26th of March,

8 1999 -" very precisely - "two tanks were situated outside Vesel's house

9 [In English] with their gun barrels pointing towards it."

10 [Interpretation] This is very much in contradiction to what you

11 said or, rather, they are in contradiction to what we see on the map. The

12 tanks were not in Suva Reka on the 26th, as far as I can see from the map,

13 but let us --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, ask a question now.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. General, was there any other military unit in Suva Reka on the

17 25th and the 26th?

18 A. There is no army location in Suva Reka at all.

19 Q. Did any other army unit pass through Suva Reka?

20 A. Only my unit was able to pass through Suva Reka, and that is shown

21 here. That unit here overlooking Suva Reka does have tanks, but they were

22 directing their actions on the east-west direction, and Suva Reka was

23 simply not in their area. Therefore, there were no tanks that could have

24 been in Suva Reka. They would have to have been my tanks. There were

25 three tanks here, and on the 25th they were here, where they are shown,

Page 41794












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13 English transcripts.













Page 41795

1 and on the 26th they were a bit further up towards Studencani.

2 Q. Very well. Now, apart from this map of Suva Reka, you also have a

3 statement.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Because you gave separate statements concerning all these

6 allegations, there is a statement of yours concerning the allegations made

7 in this book of the Humanitarian Law Foundation.

8 You say that you first read about it in this book by the

9 Humanitarian Law Fund, and you say further on: "I personally cannot

10 imagine such things happening, especially in an organised way."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, what would you say to these claims made about Suva Reka?

13 A. May I ask for this to be in closed session?

14 Q. That depends on Mr. Robinson.


16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can only support --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 41796











11 Pages 41796-41803 redacted. Private session.















Page 41804

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we are now in public session. Continue,

5 Mr. Milosevic.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Now, on the basis of the information that you had at your

9 disposal, this last segment that we discussed, would that emerge from it

10 all, the killing that we spoke? Would that be based on personal settling

11 of accounts?

12 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes, that would be right.

13 Q. Now, as far as the other events are concerned, the ones that I

14 quoted and set out which relate to the burning of houses in Suva Reka, the

15 expulsion of the Albanian civilians from Suva Reka who were making their

16 way in tractors, trucks, and trailers towards the border, 80.000 Kosovo

17 Albanians who were displaced from villages in the Suva Reka municipality

18 and the area of Belanica, the shelling of the area by our forces, and so

19 on and so forth, can you confirm any of that, General? Do you consider

20 that any pieces of information there are correct?

21 A. As far as the shelling is concerned, I said a moment ago quite

22 certainly that there can be no mention of that at all because a large

23 number of civilians would have been killed had that happened, and to the

24 best of my knowledge and information in the Belanica region there were no

25 casualties, no victims among the civilian population at all.

Page 41805

1 Now, the fact is that a number of people from Suva Reka did leave.

2 They left for Albania. They moved out. But I don't know what percentage

3 of people that was, just as people left from all other towns and

4 settlements, inhabited areas. So I can't give you any percentages or

5 figures there. I can tell you nothing more about that.

6 Q. Yes, but I'm just interested in one particular point here and that

7 is this: I'm not talking about how many people moved out. I'm not

8 questioning the reasons for which people moved out during the war, when

9 the war was on, but what I'm interested in is this: The forces of the FRY

10 and Serbia, as it is claimed here and as they are called here, referred to

11 here, did they operate towards civilians who -- did they open fire or did

12 they make these people move out? Was it possible for an event of this

13 kind to be -- to happen, the shelling of civilians? Would that be at all

14 possible? Is that possible? Could that have had happened?

15 A. No, not at all. And when the FRY forces are mentioned, this

16 includes the army.

17 Q. It means the army exclusively when it says Serbia?

18 A. Well, when it comes to the army, that is impossible because it was

19 my army and my men and the other unit.

20 Q. Very well. I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that

21 witness Shefqet Zogaj here said that on the 1st of April, 1999, and he

22 testified on the 24th of April, 2002, and that is to be found in the

23 transcript on page 3661, that statement of his, Shefqet Zogaj therefore

24 stated that on the 1st of April our forces entered Belanica, and he says

25 he saw houses being burnt and looted, and he says he saw a large number of

Page 41806












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Page 41807

1 people being killed, and that young men and women were shut up in the

2 schoolhouse and that the peasants and villagers then left the village in a

3 convoy secured by Serb policemen. They went in two directions, one

4 towards Malisevo and the other route was towards Suva Reka.

5 Now, is that true and what do you know about that 1st of April day

6 in general, 1st of April, 1999? Now, this is somewhat contradictory, the

7 80.000 persons, and then they say some people were shut up and held in the

8 schoolhouse. But let's leave that aside for the moment, what I quoted

9 from these indictments of Mr. Nice's. Let's just dwell on this particular

10 witness and his testimony, and he's referring to the 1st of April, the

11 entry into Belanica, the burning and looting of houses. They said they

12 shut up the locals in the schoolhouse building, and then he talks about a

13 convoy secured by Serb policemen moving in the direction of Malisevo and

14 Suva Reka.

15 A. Well, this witness, then, is certainly contradictory. On the 1st

16 of April I myself was in the region of Pagarusa, and the region of

17 Pagarusa is this area here, several kilometres, let's say about five or

18 six kilometres, away from Belanica. I personally was not able to see

19 Belanica myself, but these allegations, these claims that a lot of people

20 were killed there or, rather, a lot of civilians, I would certainly have

21 learnt about that had it happened.

22 In the Belanica region, the 243rd Mechanised Brigade was located

23 there.

24 Q. All right. Fine. Let's just try and be as precise as possible

25 here. We're dealing with page 3661, and towards the end of that page of

Page 41808

1 the transcript he says: "[In English] He describes the situation in Suva

2 Reka from the 20th of March 1999 when the OSCE KVM mission pulled out from

3 Kosovo.

4 "The streets were empty of civilian Albanians, but there was a

5 heavy presence of Serb police and military."

6 [Interpretation] And you said that there was no army, there were

7 no soldiers in Suva Reka.

8 A. That's right. The army was never in Suva Reka.

9 Q. Right. Then that means that this is not true, not correct. Then

10 he goes on to say: "[In English] On the same day, the Serbs attacked

11 villages in the area and people started to flee to safer places, like

12 Belanica, in his home village, Belanica.

13 "He describes the situation in Suva Reka on 25th of March,

14 including the killings and burning of houses. The witness mentioned

15 victims and survivors from the massacre in Suva Reka by name. All the

16 villages in the area of Suva Reka and Malisevo were attacked from March

17 1999 onwards. The inhabitants fled and gathered in a big field in the

18 centre of Belanica, so that by March 31st, there were about 80.000 people

19 there."

20 [Interpretation] And then he goes on to say that they were looted,

21 that they expelled them from their homes, that 150 civilian Albanians were

22 killed on that day.

23 Now, please tell us, is any of this true?

24 A. Let me say straight away that had 150 civilians been killed I

25 would have known about it and I would know about it.

Page 41809

1 Now, this figure of 80.000, that is a figure which almost exceeds

2 the entire population of Suva Reka municipality, and the village of

3 Belanica itself is in the northern stretches of the Suva Reka

4 municipality, which means that there would not have been a single

5 inhabitant left anywhere, either in Suva Reka or in the surrounding parts.

6 Q. All right. Now, does that mean that that village Belanica is in

7 the opposite direction of Suva Reka in relation to the Albanian border?

8 A. Yes, it is in the opposite direction. It is much closer to

9 Malisevo, for instance, and it is quite a long way away from Suva Reka,

10 but as I say, in the opposite direction, in the opposite direction from

11 the Albanian border.

12 Q. All right. Now, as this is in your area of responsibility, you

13 would have to have known had there been any killings of civilians,

14 wouldn't you, and that any KLA people were killed? You would have to have

15 known about that; right?

16 A. Well, when it comes to these killings and deaths, what I knew

17 about were the deaths in my own unit, but I also knew about deaths in

18 other units of the army from the corps. I also knew about some other

19 events where certain members of the MUP were killed, and although I didn't

20 know them by name personally. So I ought to have known or would have had

21 to have known had such a large number of people a massive number of people

22 been killed like these 150 civilians that are mentioned. I never heard

23 anything like that, and in my opinion this witness has just invented the

24 figure.

25 Q. All right.

Page 41810

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we have to take the adjournment

2 now. We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Hysni Berisha, from Suva Reka, a witness of Mr. Nice's, claims

9 that on the 22nd of March, 1999, a Serb civilian was killed from the

10 village of Sopina and that after that an attack began of the Serb forces

11 in Suva Reka where ten Albanian civilians were killed from a few families.

12 That is on page 7480 on the 7th of July, 2002. It says: "On the morning

13 of the 26th of March, 1999 [In English] Serb forces start to shell around

14 Suva Reka, using tanks and Pragas."

15 [Interpretation] That's what he says. I quoted that to you a few

16 minutes ago. Is that correct?

17 A. For the umpteenth time I have to say that fire was never opened at

18 villages, at civilians. Fire was opened at terrorists.

19 As for the killing of a Serb in Suva Reka, I heard that in a shop

20 a Serb had been killed, a salesperson. I don't know whether that is the

21 case concerned, because at that time there were killings of civilians,

22 both Albanians and Serbs.

23 Q. But what I quoted to you a few moments ago was that the Serb

24 forces started on the 26th of March to shell the area around Suva Reka.

25 "[In English]... started to shell around Suva Reka, using tanks and

Page 41811

1 Pragas." [Interpretation] I ask you whether that's correct.

2 A. That is not correct. On the previous maps you saw where the

3 operations were.

4 Q. All right.

5 A. By no means the area around Suva Reka. Only the western part of

6 Suva Reka, and that could be seen on this map which is on the easel.

7 Q. All right. Let us go back to your exhibits. We have a statement

8 here in document 429, a statement of Colonel Konjikovac. Please take a

9 look at this statement.

10 A. He was commander of combat group 5 that went through Suva Reka.

11 Q. That's the combat group that you showed us passing through Suva

12 Reka.

13 A. Yes. Yes, that's it.

14 Q. So he says: "We passed through Suva Reka without stopping in

15 marching order. There was no combat or activity that we had in Suva

16 Reka."

17 A. Yes. According to his statement, the situation there was as

18 usual. Policemen were at the checkpoints at the entrance of Suva Reka, so

19 he went through Suva Reka around 4.00, ten past four on the 25th.

20 Q. All right. Now we're going to move on to Mala Krusa and Velika

21 Krusa. Please describe the map first, the one contained in document 430.

22 What does this map represent?

23 Before you describe the map, I would just like to remind you or,

24 rather, everyone who is following this here, in paragraph 66 of this

25 indictment, under (c), there is mention of Velika and Mala Krusa. So we

Page 41812

1 have a direct reference to what it says here. It says there that: "On

2 the 25th of March, 1999, or around that date, the forces of the FRY and

3 Serbia attacked the villages of Velika Krusa and Mala Krusa, municipality

4 of Orahovac."

5 Now, please show us this map, explain, and then I'm going to put a

6 few other questions to you.

7 A. Can we have this one stay here? Again, this map, the map of my

8 decision covering this entire period. Let me just point this out. First

9 the village of Pirane, then Mala Krusa, then Velika Krusa. These two

10 villages are practically linked. They are right next to the asphalt road

11 between Prizren and Djakovica.

12 As for this map, first I have the map of Mala Krusa here. It

13 depicts the situation as it was on the 26th of March. Green denotes the

14 deployment of police forces, red the deployment of the military. We see

15 the deployment at 12.00, where they were at 12.00, and where they were at

16 1800 hours on that day.

17 The green that is depicted here means that from that date onwards,

18 up until the 12th -- yes, the 12th of June, the MUP forces had their

19 points here in order to ensure security along this road.

20 Q. All right. However, I read out 66(c) to you. It says on the 25th

21 of March, 1999, or around that date, our forces attacked the villages of

22 Mala Krusa and Velika Krusa.

23 A. I'm saying yet again this is not true. The villages were not the

24 target of this operation. The target were the terrorist forces. The

25 terrorist forces were in Velika Krusa and right next to Velika Krusa. You

Page 41813

1 can see the terrain here. Up to the asphalt road here it is flat land,

2 and then there is a mild slope where the villages are, and above the

3 villages there are slopes that lend themselves to defence, and that is why

4 trenches were dug there.

5 Q. All right. General, in relation to that you made a statement that

6 is contained in 431. Do you see that statement of yours?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You say: "I personally came on the night of the 25th of March,

9 1999 to the area of Velika Krusa towards the village of Nogavac but I did

10 not notice anything usual."

11 A. Yes. I came there from here around Orahovac. I came to Nogavac

12 or, rather, this part of Velika Krusa.

13 Q. You say: "My -- I had come to assist members of the PJP, 23rd

14 special police detachment whose BOV had overturned and fallen off the

15 bridge in the village of Nogavac."

16 A. Yes. That's why I came. They could not resolve the problem on

17 their own, so I was asked to come, to get a tank of mine for pulling it

18 out, and I was there only to give instructions as to how this should be

19 done at this particular locality. After that I said that via Celine I

20 went to Prizren because around 2000 hours on that day my barracks were

21 bombed.

22 Q. All right. In document 432, you have the statement of Lieutenant

23 Colonel Uros Nikolic pertaining to the same period of time and the same

24 events.

25 A. Yes. Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic was commander of combat group 1,

Page 41814

1 which was here in the area of Pirane-Mala Krusa and which was operating

2 towards Zojic, Medvece and Mamusa.

3 Q. He said that on the 25th, in the morning of the same day, went

4 through the northern part of Mala Krusa where there were some persons of

5 Serb ethnicity who were standing on the road, watching the army pass by,

6 the troops go by.

7 A. Yes. He passed here by the wine cellar, and there is an asphalt

8 road going around it and getting to the vineyards.

9 Q. All right, General. Further on in this paragraph that I quoted to

10 you, and that is paragraph 66 where there is mention of Velika Krusa and

11 Mala Krusa, it says that: "During the morning of the 26th of March, 1999,

12 the forces of FRY and Serbia ordered the women and small children

13 to leave the area and go to Albania, and then they detained and searched

14 the men and boys and confiscated their identity documents and valuables.

15 Subsequently, the forces of the SFRY and Serbia ordered the men and boys

16 under threat of death to walk to an unoccupied house in Mala Krusa."

17 Then further on it is claimed that: "The forces of FRY and Serbia

18 forced the men and boys to enter the house. When the men and boys were

19 assembled inside, the forces of the FRY and Serbia opened with -- fire

20 with machine-guns on the group. After several minutes of gun fire, the

21 forces of FRY and Serbia set fire to the house in order to burn the

22 bodies. And then allegedly as a result of the shooting and fire,

23 approximately 105 Kosovo Albanian men and boys died." Do you know

24 anything about this event?

25 A. What you quoted to me, that is what the indictment says?

Page 41815

1 Q. This is a quotation from the indictment.

2 A. Here in this area on this road where my units are, and that is

3 what is contained in this map, too, below the asphalt road, the forces for

4 blockade were there all the time. The other part of my units had already

5 moved further on. However, I'm sure that this part that was on the

6 asphalt road would have noticed had anything been going on in view of the

7 proximity of Mala Krusa in particular. Velika Krusa is a considerably

8 larger village, but Mala Krusa is not that big. So if civilians were

9 assembled and if anybody fired at them when there was no combat operation

10 going on there anyway, when units were moving towards Retimlje around

11 Dubrava, my commander in that area would have had to have observed that

12 and inform me about that. There are no such reports from that commander.

13 Q. All right. That you have no such reports that is one thing. Is

14 it possible for this kind of thing to happen without you having any

15 information about it?

16 A. In terms of everything, in terms of the subordination in the

17 military, that is quite simply impossible. I'm saying quite simply

18 impossible for them not to report to me that something like that had

19 happened.

20 Q. Thank you, General. Ali Hoti from Velika Krusa, Mr. Nice's

21 witness here, stated that on the 25th of March our forces surrounded the

22 village of Velika Krusa and that he saw tanks and Pragas in the village

23 and that he saw that they started shelling the village. He testified on

24 the 22nd of April, 2002. The transcript number is 3590 to 3592. "[In

25 English] He saw tanks, APCs, and he will describe also the Pragas

Page 41816

1 approaching the village and the village being shelled, policemen and

2 paramilitary looting property. His own house, as well as those in the

3 surrounding village, were burnt and destroyed."

4 [Interpretation] All right. That's what he says. Does this

5 correspond to the facts that you have in any way?

6 A. The truth is that he could have seen tanks, that he could have

7 seen other vehicles that were on the road. Sometimes he could even see

8 them in action, but they were firing at firing points, not at the village.

9 Certainly not. And then they surrounded the village and shelled that, I

10 mean that statement is not true at all.

11 Q. There is some mention of paramilitary units here. Were there any

12 paramilitary units there?

13 A. That is absolutely incorrect. It was only the regular army there

14 and the regular police.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, when you said that they were firing at

16 firing points, what do you mean? Who would have been firing from those

17 points?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From those firing points fire was

19 opened by members of the KLA. So fire was directed only at these sources

20 of fire, at them.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: How would you be able to know with any certainty

22 that there were no paramilitary forces in the area?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, how would I be able to know?

24 I'm sure. And I know that because my military police existed, and as far

25 as military uniforms are concerned, they knew exactly who was in that

Page 41817

1 territory.

2 As for members of the MUP, I know exactly which units were in that

3 territory. After all, we had orders not to allow any armed groups there,

4 or any self-appointed commanders or any units of that kind. Where I was,

5 I never allowed that.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. This same witness says that on the 29th of March, 1999, Mehmed

9 Krasniqi told him that on that day in Mala Krusa Serbian police and

10 paramilitaries rounded up 109 men, including this Krasniqi, took them to a

11 house, covered them with straw, poured petrol over them and set them on

12 fire, but this Krasniqi somehow survived. It's from the same testimony of

13 the 22nd of April by Ali Hoti from Velika Krusa.

14 He says on page 3592: "One of them, Mehmet Krasniqi, had been

15 burned, together with 109 men, by Serb police and paramilitary.

16 "[In English] And 1st of April, 1999, the witness described that

17 Nagafc was bombed by planes he believes to have been Serbian. The witness

18 saw many corpses at various locations throughout the village."

19 [Interpretation] So he is repeating the words of Mehmet Krasniqi.

20 A. Well, even if he said he had seen many corpses again he mentions

21 Mala Krusa. Right next to Mala Krusa, in the proximity of the road, there

22 were blocking forces from my unit positioned, and their commander was

23 Lieutenant Colonel Radivoj Paravanja. In all his reports regarding the

24 situation in the village we read that the situation was normal and he

25 didn't report any problems to me. And setting this house on fire and the

Page 41818












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13 English transcripts.













Page 41819

1 pouring of the petrol and the shooting, all that would have been heard

2 certainly. He also mentions planes, aircraft. Our aviation was unable to

3 fly at that time.

4 Q. On page 3608, he says --

5 MR. NICE: It's not clear to me whether the reports the witness

6 has just referred to of his commander Lieutenant Colonel Radivoj Paravanja

7 are included in the materials before us or not.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll make the inquiry of the general.

9 Are those reports included in the material?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The statements are here

11 under various tabs, and they explain the activities of his unit, the man I

12 just mentioned.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Let me finish with the testimony of this witness who said that

15 Nogavac had been bombed by Serb planes. You already commented on that.

16 He says on page 3608: "[In English]... and after that, on its way back,

17 it started bombing.

18 "Later on, pieces from the shells were to be found with the

19 Cyrillic writing on them, which goes to show that these aircraft were

20 yours and not NATO's."

21 [Interpretation] That's what this witness says. What can you tell

22 us about this claim that our aircraft bombed?

23 A. Nogavac was indeed bombed. It's shown on this map. It was in the

24 night of the 1st, in the night of the 1st of April.

25 The on-site investigation of that bombing was carried out on the

Page 41820

1 2nd of April by the police from Prizren.

2 Q. Very well.

3 A. There is a video recording of this on-site investigation, however

4 we only have the map here.

5 Q. We will get to that video recording in due course. Let me just

6 ask you one more question. Witness Mehmet Avdyli from Velika Krusa

7 testified on the 11th of June, 2002, transcript page 6730 to 6731. He

8 testified that on the 25th of March, Serb forces separated men from women

9 and about 110 men were taken prisoner and later locked up in the house of

10 Haxhi Batusha. He stated that Serb forces opened fire at these men, then

11 set hay on fire, just the same as the previous witness.

12 Is this correct, General?

13 A. I can say the same thing to the same allegations. This is already

14 the third witness making the same allegations. I have no information that

15 this could be true.

16 Q. Very well. We will now move on to the events from Nogavac

17 village.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, you have no information that this could

19 be true. Do you have any basis for saying that it is untrue?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am saying that I have no knowledge

21 that something like that could have happened in that village at the time

22 when I was there with my unit.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Mr. Milosevic, go ahead.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Along this route, because this is

25 the main road to Djakovica, I passed several times after this date. My

Page 41821

1 unit was there for three days, and the last time I was there was on the

2 12th of July -- June. That's the last time I passed along that road. I

3 went to and fro several times, and I never saw anything unusual.

4 Q. General, let us be very precise. An event of the sort that I just

5 quoted, could it have happened without you knowing, since your units were

6 there at the time and it was in your area of responsibility throughout

7 that period?

8 A. In view of the mechanisms that are in operation in the chain of

9 command, and in view of all the rules of the army, I believe something

10 like that would -- could not happen without me knowing. I would have

11 known about it. I would have learned at least two or three days later,

12 because if I didn't learn about it, that means that one of the links in

13 the chain was not functioning, and I believe that is impossible.

14 Q. All right. Now, look at the map. We are moving on to Nogavac

15 village. Could you explain the map that's marked Nogavac TK 50, 1st and

16 2nd of April. That's document 433.

17 A. On this map we notice that our forces are no longer in that

18 territory except for here in Mala Krusa and Velika Krusa where the

19 checkpoints on this road are, security checkpoints. This is a symbol for

20 aircraft activity, and it shows that there was an airstrike on Nogavac

21 village around 1.00, 1.00 a.m. That is the night of the 1st of April.

22 Q. You mean NATO airstrike?

23 A. Yes, NATO airstrike.

24 Q. Very well. In December 2002 you wrote a statement about your

25 knowledge of purported crimes in Nogavac village. It is under tab 434.

Page 41822

1 What is relevant and important here? You say: "It can be observed that

2 the army was not in this area at all after the 28th of March, 1999. I

3 learnt on that same day, the 2nd of April, that the village had been

4 bombed by NATO aviation."

5 A. I knew about the bombing, but I didn't know what the consequences

6 were. The airstrikes happened, but not that frequently, so that the

7 police went out on-site after every incident and recorded the entire area,

8 the projectiles, the effects of the bombing. Later on, when there were

9 dozens of airstrikes every day everywhere, there was no longer the

10 practice.

11 Q. All right. We have seen your statement about purported crimes in

12 Nogavac village, and now we will deal with the allegations of Mr. Nice

13 concerning what happened there.

14 Paragraph 66(i) [as interpreted]: "On or about 25th of March, a

15 large group of Kosovo Albanians went to the mountain overlooking Nogavac,

16 fleeing attack."

17 What kind of attack is referred to here? What happened in the

18 village?

19 A. This again pertains to this basic map. The very village of

20 Nogavac was not the target of attack. We can see that KLA forces, that is

21 the 124th Brigade, was here.

22 Q. Whose brigade?

23 A. KLA. So Nogavac village was within the defence system, and there

24 was a local headquarters for all these villages; Nogavac, Brestovac,

25 Velika Hoca.

Page 41823

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the paragraph of the indictment this

2 relates to? You said 66(e), but it doesn't appear to be that.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. I said 63. It may be an

4 error in the record, but it's 63(i). When I say "E," in English it should

5 be "I."

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next thing the witness mentions

7 is the mountain. Around Nogavac there are no mountains.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Very well, General. Further on it is alleged that: "The forces

10 of the FRY and Serbia surrounded these people, and on the following day,

11 they ordered the 8.000 people who had sought shelter on the mountain to

12 leave. The Kosovo Albanians were forced to go to a nearby school, and

13 then they were forcibly dispersed into nearby villages." Is this familiar

14 to you?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but --

16 MR. KAY: It's 63(a)(i).

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: 63(a)(i). Yes, that's it. Continue.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And then they were forcibly dispersed into nearby villages. I

21 don't know what "forcibly dispersed" could possibly mean. Do you know

22 anything about 8.000 people being driven away from that mountain and into

23 a nearby school and then being forcibly dispersed into nearby villages?

24 A. Already in the first days, according to a report by my subordinate

25 commander, around this brook here there were about 200 civilians, and

Page 41824

1 after the combat operations were finished, they were told to go back to

2 their villages. They were from Nogavac and from Celine. Nogavac is not a

3 large village. There is no way we can talk about 8.000 residents. 8.000

4 is a huge mass of people, and such a large group could not find shelter

5 here without me seeing them from my position, and I was, let's say, four

6 kilometres away from Nogavac. Eight thousand is a very large group.

7 In that brook and around that brook near Nogavac there were about

8 200 people. A unit which passed by saw them. After the combat was over,

9 they were told to go back home. There's no way this could be true. First

10 of all, there are no mountains in the area, and second, there is no 8.000

11 people living in that entire territory.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Suppose the number was 2.000. Would that have

13 been possible?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even that is an exaggeration. My

15 commanders reported to me about 200 people. First -- and second of all,

16 there is a reference to a mountain. You can see from these trig points

17 what the elevation above sea level is. All this area around the village

18 is covered by vineyards. This is the first mountain, the nearest

19 mountain, Milanovac, here. But those people could not be there because I

20 was here at this point. This is where my forces were, and those people

21 would certainly have been observed. So this is a mildly, wavy flat land

22 so to speak. Let me see. It's exactly 450 metres above sea level,

23 whereas the area around the road is around 300 metres above sea level.

24 There are no mountains whatsoever.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, just remind us: On the 25th, where were

Page 41825

1 you with your forces, the forces that you were personally commanding on

2 the 25th? Tell us the name of the villages.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see that from this basic

4 map. These are the initial positions of my forces. You can see them

5 here.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Name the villages.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you start from here, Pirane, Mala

8 Krusa, Velika Krusa, Celine. Here, east of Bela Crkva, east of Orahovac,

9 Velika Hoca, Zociste, Opterusa, and on this side Rastane. Then here on

10 the line of blockade Donja Srbica, Trnje, Lesane. That would be the line

11 approximately.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: When the indictment makes allegations to areas

13 that are not included in the sections that you have just identified where

14 you were personally, you're relying on reports from your commanders as to

15 the answers you are giving Mr. Milosevic.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and the fact that I was

17 personally present. So on the 25th, on the 26th, I was here at this

18 location.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm talking about the areas that are not covered

20 in those places where you were personally. You are giving evidence about

21 those areas as well, and I'm saying that your information is therefore

22 coming from other sources, and that is from the commanders.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are my commanders, and they

24 were constantly in radio communication with me, and they were informing me

25 and reporting to me about what was happening, when people asked for

Page 41826

1 reinforcements when necessary, so I was in communication with them all the

2 time.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 JUDGE KWON: General, can I get the tab number of the map you were

5 pointing at? If Mr. Kay would help us.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nogavac is tab 432.

7 JUDGE KWON: No, no, no. The map on the easel. The witness

8 pointed at that one.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's 358.

10 JUDGE KWON: 358. Thank you. And do you know the tab number of

11 the bigger map on your right side? Let's find out later.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the map was introduced

13 at the beginning, that big map there. So we can find the number.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the fourth map in order, the

15 intelligence map.

16 JUDGE KWON: So just for the record, we need tab numbers when the

17 witness is referring to a certain map.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Further on in that same paragraph it says that on the 2nd of

21 April, forces of the FRY and Serbia started shelling the villages, killing

22 a number of people who had been sleeping in tractors and cars.

23 A. What is referred to is the same --

24 Q. Yes, yes, that's right, the same. It's all the same paragraph.

25 A. Let me say straight away that that is just not true, and we can

Page 41827

1 see on this map here the forces of the army and the police at that time,

2 and that's on a following map, were already in this area here, in another

3 region altogether. So there was no -- there were no troops up until that

4 point.

5 Q. All right, General. Now, link this up. A moment ago I said that

6 Ali Hoti, Mr. Nice's witness, said that our planes had thrown bombs at

7 Nogavac. That was on page 3552 to 3608 pages of the transcript, and you

8 explained that there was in fact a NATO attack and that the village of

9 Nogavac was bombed in that and that afterwards there was an on-site

10 investigation after the NATO bombing.

11 Now, you brought some pictures of Nogavac after the NATO bombing

12 on the 2nd of April. May we take a look at that footage or those

13 pictures. It is in tab 435. It is a DVD of the village of Nogavac of the

14 2nd of April, 1999.

15 MR. KAY: Just while we're going over to that, the map to the

16 right of the witness is 204, tab 204.

17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Kay.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They can play the video segment from

19 the beginning.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is another video. We don't

22 need that one.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. All right. We'll see that one later on.

25 Now, General, this -- these are the effects of the 2nd of April

Page 41828

1 NATO bombing; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... talking about the

4 origin of the video or anything else about what's being seen, neither I

5 think is any material available for me in the surrogate sheet which

6 appears in the documents, and I don't know if there's anything else on the

7 index, so I'm completely in the dark as to what we've been looking at.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you must elicit evidence from the

9 witness about the provenance of the video. What is it?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. General, please tell us the origins and source of this video.

13 A. It was footage filmed by a team from Radio-Television Serbia,

14 Studio Prizren, on the 2nd of April, 1999. And together with members of

15 the MUP, they were in the village of Nogavac when the on-site

16 investigation was conducted, and later on they went to the hospital to

17 take a film of the Siptars who were wounded.

18 Q. On this video -- well, we saw parts of projectiles with something

19 written up on them. Can we see the -- where the projectiles came from?

20 A. Yes, you can see that on the footage. They were NATO projectiles,

21 and I think the one we saw on the film belongs to the anti-radar harm

22 rocket.

23 Q. Right. Now, General, could it be contested or challenged that

24 NATO did the bombing of the village of Nogavac on the 2nd of April? Is

25 there any doubt about that?

Page 41829

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a well-tried route, and you know that it's

2 not permissible. It's leading.

3 MR. NICE: And has probably made valueless the follow-up question

4 which might have been made in the right way, and I invite the Court simply

5 to move on from where we've got and I'll do what I can with the film later

6 if I judge it necessary to do anything with it.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next question, Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really don't know, Mr. Robinson,

9 what more you need of video footage of the bombing of the village of

10 Nogavac where we can see the remains of projectiles, NATO projectiles

11 described by the general --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm stopping you. Yes, we can see the video and

13 we have seen it.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. General, I quoted passages from the indictment to you where it is

16 stated that on the 2nd of April, the forces of FRY and Serbia started

17 shelling the villages and killing a number of people who had been sleeping

18 in tractors and cars.

19 Now, what did actually happen on the 2nd of April in that village

20 of Nogavac?

21 A. Briefly speaking, Nogavac was bombed by NATO planes, and the

22 victims, just like the casualties who were wounded, were wounded by the

23 bombing.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I'm not allowed to ask the

25 question of whether it is contested or not that NATO bombed the village on

Page 41830












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 41831

1 the 2nd of April. You mean that's a leading question, do you? I'm not

2 allowed to ask that? And we've already seen the video and we've seen the

3 projectiles. Well, I had already asked him that and he had already given

4 us his answer in the description of the projectile.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on, Mr. Milosevic.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. General, did our planes at that time fly over the area at all?

8 A. Our planes at that time did not fly. They didn't even fly around

9 Belgrade, especially not near the border. I know that for certain because

10 there is a device at the level of the brigade which is called an APP

11 device. It's a piece of equipment which allows us to monitor all planes

12 flying on the territory of our country, both our own planes and enemy

13 planes, and that particular device is one that my brigade had in its

14 possession. And in my operative centre, when I had time, I would monitor

15 the situation in the airspace. And apart from the first few days, that is

16 to say when our planes which had taken off and were hit, after that, after

17 those flights, there were no flights by our aviation, by our air force,

18 throughout the war, no further flights.

19 Q. The indictment further goes on to claim that during these

20 expulsions, because we were dealing with the dispersal, forcible dispersal

21 of the people sent to the school, et cetera, that throughout the territory

22 of the Orahovac municipality, forces of the FRY and Serbia systematically

23 burnt houses, shops, cultural monuments and religious sites belonging to

24 Kosovo Albanians. What can you tell us about that, about these claims?

25 What is it that our army systematically did, as Mr. Nice says?

Page 41832

1 A. As far as the place itself goes, Orahovac, the army did pass

2 through Orahovac, and you can see today, anyway, that in Orahovac after

3 the war there was a -- were only a large number of Serb houses that were

4 set fire to, just like in 1998. So Orahovac, apart from the villages that

5 we mentioned a moment ago, rather a large number of villages is to be

6 found to the west of the road running from Orahovac to Malisevo, and it is

7 in these villages that the army did not enter. The army never entered

8 those villages at all.

9 Now, the following action at the beginning of April onwards, the

10 operations took place towards Malisevo and this territory up here, but

11 once again within the frameworks of the anti-terrorist attack or, rather,

12 the 122nd Brigade of the KLA against that, which was located in the region

13 of Dragobilje and Pagarusa.

14 Q. Very well. Now, General, in connection with the area you just

15 mentioned, related to that and the activities of the army with respect to

16 Malisevo, you have here an order in tab 438. Tab 438 is an order, as far

17 as I can see. However, before we move on to discuss the order and

18 Malisevo, we're going to pause there for a moment and look at tab 438,

19 because in the meantime, quite apart from the documents that you have

20 here, I would like to ask you several questions related to the Djakovica

21 municipality.

22 Now, the area of Djakovica, was it important for the terrorist

23 forces?

24 A. Yes, it was. The Djakovica region was especially interesting to

25 the terrorist forces because Djakovica is to be found just seven

Page 41833

1 kilometres away from the Albanian border, and because the main axes for

2 armament supplies went to the north of Djakovica -- yes, to the north of

3 Djakovica, that was the main route, and east of Djakovica, the two main

4 routes.

5 Q. Very well, General. Now, in paragraph 63 of the indictment, it is

6 claimed that beginning the 24th of March up until the 11th of May, 1999,

7 the forces of the FRY and Serbia started forcing the inhabitants of the

8 residents of Djakovica, forcing the residents to leave, and that they

9 spread out through the town and went from house to house, ordering the

10 Kosovo Albanians from their homes. So Djakovica was in your area of

11 responsibility, was it not?

12 A. Yes, it was in my area of responsibility, but as the 2nd Brigade

13 was located there, it was the PVO Brigade, it was its responsibility

14 linked to the town, the anti-aircraft defence group, and just one of my

15 battalions was located in town.

16 Q. All right. Now, in view of that one battalion of yours that was

17 located there, based on that can you tell us that you are aware of

18 everything that happened in Djakovica, that you know about it?

19 A. Well, I'm better acquainted with the events and the situation

20 between the town of Djakovica and the boarder, that belt, because since

21 1998 my battalion was no longer in the town itself but moved towards the

22 border belt.

23 Q. Very well. Now, let me ask you this, and that is something that

24 is also stated in paragraph 63 of the indictment, (ii), it says that: "In

25 the early hours of the morning of the 27th of April or round about that

Page 41834

1 time the forces of the FRY and Serbia launched a massive attack against

2 the Carragojs, Erenik and Trava valleys in order to drive the population

3 out of the area." Now, do you know something about that area?

4 A. Yes, I do. It's an area to the west of Djakovica.

5 Q. Is that the area between Djakovica and the border that you

6 mentioned?

7 A. It is the area between or, rather, from Djakovica moving towards

8 Junik and Decani.

9 Q. So it's the area where your units were located; is that right?

10 A. Well, only one unit, which was located at the border. My unit was

11 at the border on the fringes of that area, and I know about those combat

12 operations. They began on the 27th, and I think that they ended on the

13 30th. And taking part as forces to block the forces was part of my unit

14 or, rather, the 2nd Motorised Battalion.

15 Q. All right. The point of my question is this: I'm saying that --

16 they say that that -- that it -- the intention was to expel the population

17 from the area.

18 A. That is absolutely not true. On the 11th of April, from Albania a

19 breakthrough on land in the direction of Junik was perpetrated. If you

20 need to, we can make a break and replace this map with a map showing the

21 area.

22 Q. Well, we should be able to see the area because it says that this

23 was some kind of offensive to evict the population from the area, to drive

24 them -- the population out of the area, as it says.

25 A. So this is the town of Djakovica. This is the position of my

Page 41835

1 battalion or, rather, one company of my battalion, and the valley

2 Carragojs encompasses this region here running towards Decani, that is to

3 say the villages of Smonica, Ponosevac, that's the general region to the

4 west of Djakovica. In this part here there was a breakthrough across the

5 state border on the 11th of April that was carried out and there was

6 fighting here continuously until the end of the war. So the goal of the

7 terrorist forces was that along -- to break through along this axis and

8 link up with the forces in the region and with the other forces in this

9 other area on the other side, which means in the area of Lake Radonjic.

10 In actual fact, to break through our defences and to take control of Pec,

11 Djakovica, and other towns moving towards Klina and Pristina.

12 Q. These operations that started on the 27th and ended on the 30th

13 were aimed at crushing the terrorist forces that were in the area and

14 preventing their link-up or, rather, a strike at the back of our forces

15 and preventing a link-up with their forces from Albania. So that was the

16 main aim of that operation.

17 Q. (ii) paragraph 63 says that the intention was to drive out the

18 population of the area.

19 A. That is absolutely not true. The objective was what I described

20 just now.

21 Q. All right. General, further on it says: "In Meja, Korenica and

22 Meja Orize, a large and as yet undetermined, number of civilian males were

23 separated from the mass of fleeing villagers, abducted and executed.

24 Throughout the entire day, villagers under direct threat from the forces

25 of the FRY and Serbia left their homes and joined several convoys of

Page 41836

1 refugees using tractors, horse carts and cars and eventually crossed into

2 Albania. The forces of the FRY and Serbia confiscated the identity

3 documents of many of the Kosovo Albanians before they crossed the border."

4 What can you say about this? I mean the entirety of the events

5 that concerned Djakovica.

6 A. As for this, I've already explained why this operation had been

7 organised. As for this expulsion of the population, the population left

8 the area that was under threat because there were intensive military

9 operations under way there against the terrorists.

10 Further on, Meja is mentioned here. Meja and Korenica. Meja is

11 somewhere around here on the road.

12 I just know, although that is not depicted on this map, that the

13 position of my forces, that is to say the position of forces of the

14 strength of about one company, was to prevent the terrorist forces from

15 withdrawing here where my battalion was. So now we see the defence here,

16 and now there was the blockade in this other area.

17 Meja is perhaps about a kilometre or a kilometre and a half away.

18 So as for what I know, and what I have are the reports of my

19 commander, was that columns of civilians continued to move towards

20 Djakovica. Now, I don't know whether they proceeded towards Prizren,

21 because here in the direction of Djakovica there is also Cafa Pruse, a

22 path through which civilians went to Albania, but I think that was only in

23 the beginning of April. My knowledge here is only based on the report of

24 the commander of my 2nd Battalion, and he informed me that there was

25 fighting there and that he had three wounded men, one on one day and the

Page 41837

1 second day he informed me about yet another one. I have these reports of

2 his, and all my knowledge is based on the information that I got from his

3 reports.

4 Q. All right. All this information that you receive, I mean you are

5 in constant contact with your commanders and that is how command and

6 control functions as far as your units are concerned --

7 A. I have to mention that all our communication centres had already

8 been hit during the first days of the war, our stationary centres. And

9 already at that time the communications were interrupted with this

10 commander and there was about a two-day break in his reports. I have

11 reports for those days, that is, but communication in any unit was not

12 normal by then because from the air there was jamming already and also the

13 stationary centres were destroyed.

14 Q. But you have precise information what the unit did, what happened,

15 and all these details.

16 A. Yes. I have his daily report in writing for each and every day.

17 As for the other units, that's where the difference is. Since this

18 battalion is far away from the brigade command, the others reported by

19 telephone because there were wire communications that we had placed,

20 whereas he had to report via radio communication, via a particular device,

21 so I always received his reports in writing.

22 Q. All right. Let me just draw your attention to --

23 MR. NICE: Your Honours, again before moving on and because

24 there's going to be considerable difficulty retracing our steps onto

25 matters of this kind, see here a reference to daily reports in writing for

Page 41838

1 each and every day, I don't know if they're included in the materials that

2 we've got, because I need to know.

3 I'm bound to observe the slow progress we've made today in terms

4 of documents. It looked to me as though we're likely to be with this

5 witness in chief until the end of the week, which will, I think, make him

6 certainly the longest Defence witness, and possibly - I'm checking on how

7 long Babic was - possibly the longest witness in chief so far.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Babic was, I think --

9 MR. NICE: I think longer.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: 13 days. Yes.

11 MR. NICE: 13 days in total, in fact.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Total. Yes. Before we adjourn I'm going to deal

13 with the admission of tabs 362 to 434. The following maps will be

14 admitted: 372, 377, 380, 391, 403, 415, 424, 427, 430, and 433.

15 And the following statements from the witness himself, Mr. Delic,

16 will be admitted: 373, 379, 381, 392, 404, 416, 425, 428, 431, 434.

17 Additionally, criminal reports 375 and the official report 376 are

18 admitted.

19 I am to say two other things. First, all untranslated documents

20 are marked for identification pending translation in the usual way; and

21 secondly, also marked for identification will be the statements of persons

22 other than the witness himself that were made to the ICTY commission.

23 JUDGE KWON: And tab 428 should be under seal for the same reason

24 why we were in private session.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that is so.

Page 41839

1 MR. NICE: Your Honours, may I -- may I either make or make a

2 second time an observation about the maps that I may wish to follow in

3 cross-examination, express some reservations about, in particular the

4 maps, but we'll see.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Also admitted are tabs 254, 255 and 261.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That means we have admitted all of the tabs up

8 to 361.

9 MR. KAY: Just for the record, the last map that was produced was

10 355, which was quite important for the witness's evidence.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thanks.

12 So we are adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00 a.m.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day

15 of July, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.