Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 43647

1 Monday, 5 September 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: My monitor isn't working, but we can proceed.

7 Mr. Kay, do you remember at the last session Mr. Milosevic was

8 seeking to lead through this witness evidence which he said would

9 discredit Prosecution witnesses Dulovic and Anastasijevic insofar as it

10 would show discrepancies between the evidence that they had given in a

11 special court in Belgrade.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can barely hear this. The volume

13 is down. I can barely hear the interpretation.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's better now. Yes.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not better. It's not better.

16 [In English] You can try it.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it any better, Mr. --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now it is better.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Yes, we'll proceed.

20 I was recalling for Mr. Kay's benefit, and Mr. Milosevic's, the

21 evidence which Mr. Milosevic sought to lead through this witness of what

22 he said were discrepancies between Prosecution witnesses Dulovic and

23 Anastasijevic's evidence given in this court and evidence which they gave

24 in a special court in Belgrade. I had indicated to him that there are

25 other ways of introducing that evidence which he felt was important to his

Page 43648

1 case, and I'm going to ask the assigned counsel to investigate this

2 matter, to get hold of the transcript, and I would leave it to their

3 discretion to -- whether to seek to lead that evidence through whatever

4 means is appropriate.

5 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please for Mr. Kay.

7 MR. KAY: It seemed to us on Friday whether we discussed this

8 issue, Ms. Higgins and myself, that the obvious way forward was to have

9 the original transcripts of the hearing set against the evidence that was

10 given here so that the issues of the discrepancies can be seen from the

11 primary material.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes. I would not want this evidence to be

13 lost to the accused, and that is why I'm asking assigned counsel to

14 investigate the matter.

15 MR. KAY: We will.


17 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, at the end of the last day I put some

22 questions to you that had to do with paragraph 28 of the Bosnian

23 indictment, that have to do with the "Rump Presidency" as it's called

24 here. You have partly answered that. It says: "The Rump Presidency

25 carried out Slobodan Milosevic's policies," and so on and so forth, "had

Page 43649

1 effect and control over the JNA as its Commander-in-Chief."

2 I'm not going to ask you to repeat what you've already said, but

3 in relation to that please answer my question. The representatives of

4 Serbia -- Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia, why did they

5 not take part for a certain period of time in the work of the Presidency

6 of the SFRY, and were there any obstacles in Belgrade? Did they have any

7 objective reasons that threatened them in any way and prevented them from

8 carrying out their functions, or were there some other reasons for this?

9 The question is: Why did the representatives of Slovenia,

10 Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia not take part in the work of the

11 SFRY Presidency in Belgrade?

12 A. In Belgrade there were no problems in terms of them coming,

13 staying properly, and carrying out their political duties. There was

14 never a single incident involved. No one ever prevented them from

15 carrying out their work. However, first it was Janez Drnovsek who stopped

16 coming to the sessions, and in this way he showed that Slovenia had

17 practically already seceded. Then he was similarly followed by Stipe

18 Mesic, Bogic Bogicevic and Vasil Tupurkovski. At first they were saying

19 that they could not come because they could not strike a balance in

20 relation to the representatives of Serbia, Kosovo, Vojvodina, and

21 Montenegro, because they would always be outvoted four to three.

22 The representatives of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Macedonia were

23 not expressing the -- any separatist views at that point in time that was

24 actually showed by their leaderships, and even Stipe Mesic did not display

25 such feelings at the time. It's only when he left Belgrade and when he

Page 43650

1 came back to the Croatian parliament that he said, "I've completed my

2 duty. Yugoslavia is no more."

3 He pretended to be a Yugoslav for a very long period of time.

4 Also, as a person who wanted to engage in dialogue. He presented him

5 sufficient as such to the representatives of the European Community and he

6 condemned the Serbs of being uncooperative. He pretended to be the most

7 cooperative of all. However, at the very end the mask fell and he was

8 what he was.

9 I already said that according to the constitution of the then

10 Yugoslavia it was not possible to have a Rump Presidency. Had only one

11 single member of the Presidency been in Belgrade and had all others been

12 prevented from coming, somebody could have gotten killed, somebody could

13 have gotten sick, somebody could have been taken prisoner, somebody could

14 have refused to come to attend a session, a single member of the

15 Presidency was sufficient to pass legal decision because we represent the

16 Presidency. That is the kind of general legal document that existed

17 within the Presidency of Yugoslavia, and it was adopted considerably

18 before Yugoslavia disintegrated. That is why I insist on the fact that a

19 Rump Presidency is impossible. It is inconceivable to have the notion of

20 a rump Presidency.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Seselj. Next question, please.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. In paragraph 56 it says, inter alia, that: "Slobodan Milosevic,

24 in his capacity as president of the Republic of Serbia, declared that

25 Yugoslavia was finished."

Page 43651

1 Please, you've got that paragraph number 56 before you. I'm not

2 going to read the whole paragraph out because that would take up too much

3 time. Either after that session of the Presidency that is referred to

4 here or before that or after that, did I in any way declare that

5 Yugoslavia was finished?

6 A. I personally think that not even today you are prepared to say

7 that Yugoslavia is finished. But while you held these high offices you

8 never said any such thing. You expressed your dissatisfaction though. I

9 remember that speech of yours that you made in 1991 concerning the

10 behaviour of the members of the Presidency of the SFRY. When Serbia went

11 through a referendum in 1990 and adopted its new constitution or, rather,

12 constitutional amendments that had to do with its federal competencies,

13 but then they were immediately suspended by a particular constitutional

14 provision saying that it will only enter into force if Yugoslavia ceases

15 to exist. I cannot quote it verbatim, but that was the gist of the

16 matter.

17 The leadership of Serbia never acted against Yugoslavia and never

18 did it contribute to the disappearance of Yugoslavia. When Slovenia and

19 Croatia seceded, when the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

20 Macedonia was recognised, the leadership of Serbia and Montenegro

21 proclaimed the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as a federation consisting

22 of two federal units. So even then there was this very marked aspiration

23 on your part to keep some kind of Yugoslavia alive.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 43652

1 Q. "In March 1991 the collective Presidency of the SFRY reached a

2 deadlock on several issues." That is paragraph 56.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... that sentence

4 which is at the beginning of the paragraph. There's another allegation in

5 that last sentence which is that you declared that Yugoslavia would no

6 longer be bound by decisions of the Federal Presidency, so I want to ask

7 Mr. Seselj whether that is so.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. As far as I can remember

9 at that time, and this speech, which is generally known in the Serbian

10 public, Mr. Milosevic did not say that Serbia would not be bound by the

11 decisions of the Federal Presidency. His statement was to the effect that

12 Serbia would think about what it would do in the future in that situation

13 when the Federal Presidency was behaving rather irresponsibly.

14 I would like to remind you that in that same month, March, there

15 was a meeting of the Federal Presidency in the building of the

16 headquarters of the General Staff of the JNA. There was a very long

17 debate that went on; I think a day and a night. It had to do with the

18 demand of the military to declare a state of emergency.

19 The top echelons of the military was quite dissatisfied with the

20 behaviour of some members of the Presidency, and when there was finally a

21 vote not a single position prevailed. It was a draw. As far as I can

22 remember --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have answered the question I asked, thanks.

24 Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 43653

1 Q. That is what is referred to here. It says the representatives on

2 the Presidency from the Republic of Serbia, the Republic of Montenegro,

3 the autonomous province of Vojvodina, and the autonomous province of

4 Kosovo and Metohija all resigned from their posts in March 1991. So what

5 was so controversial about this proposal that was presented to the

6 Presidency and who was it that submitted this proposal?

7 A. The essence of this proposal was that the Presidency should also

8 start the disintegration of Yugoslavia. I haven't got the document here

9 so I cannot quote from it. But some members of the Presidency were

10 actually instigated by emissaries from Western Europe and they already

11 started putting forth such demands. Actually, they wanted to bring the

12 Presidency into the position of declaring the end of Yugoslavia, for the

13 Presidency to declare the end of Yugoslavia. Since the atmosphere was not

14 very constructive, as far as I can remember three members of the

15 Presidency resigned: Borisav Jovic from Serbia; then Nenad Bucin, was it,

16 or Branko Kostic from Montenegro; and the representative from Vojvodina.

17 I think the representative from Kosovo was Riza Sapundziju and he had been

18 recalled in the meantime.

19 Q. All right, Mr. Seselj. A few moments ago you said after that

20 session or before that session or in relation to that session I never

21 declared that Yugoslavia was finish. What about other politicians? Did

22 they declare that Yugoslavia was finished?

23 A. I've already said about Stipe Mesic. And then all Slovenian

24 politicians were saying that Yugoslavia was finished and their policy was

25 one of unison, that is to say of the Slovenian leadership, and it would be

Page 43654

1 hard to find anyone who was not speak along those lines.

2 As for the Serbian leadership, no such thing ever happened; in

3 Montenegro either.

4 Q. After these reactions, was the work of the Presidency returned to

5 normal, because Borisav Jovic withdrew his resignation and Branko Kostic

6 was elected on behalf of Montenegro, and Jugoslav Kostic represented

7 Vojvodina at the time.

8 A. Well, it could not be put that way, that the normal work of the

9 Presidency continued. The Presidency was reconstituted. It started

10 working again, but Stipe Mesic was putting obstacles in the way of its

11 work. Drnovsek never came back, I think, and the representative of

12 Bosnia, Bogic Bogicevic, and the representative of Macedonia, Vasil

13 Tupurkovski, started behaving worse and worse. There would be a new

14 crisis soon after that in the month of May, when Stipe Mesic failed to be

15 elected president of the Presidency.

16 There was a principle involved that the president of the

17 Presidency was elected from a different republican province every year but

18 nobody's election was guaranteed. There had to be a vote. Stipe Mesic

19 did not enjoy the confidence of the Presidency, and then Western European

20 envoys came and exerted great pressure on the members of the Presidency to

21 elect him nevertheless.

22 Q. What was my attitude towards Yugoslavia?

23 A. Your attitude was always a consistent one in terms of supporting

24 the preservation of Yugoslavia as a modern federation. You acted from

25 those positions. I think that there is not a single exception to that.

Page 43655

1 Q. Do you recall what is referred to in paragraph 57 where it says

2 that Slobodan Milosevic and Franjo Tudjman met in Karadjordjevo and

3 discussed on March 25, 1991 the partition of Bosnia-Herzegovina between

4 Serbia and Croatia?

5 A. Yes, I remember that. I was not present at that meeting, but I

6 remember what the official press release was. And I also know that what

7 was skilfully being bandied about was that you and Tudjman were reaching

8 agreement on the partition of Bosnia-Herzegovina primarily to upset the

9 Bosnian politicians, Alija Izetbegovic and others, and also to create a

10 situation that would be as unpleasant as possible, that would make it

11 increasingly difficult to find a way out of the problems that beset the

12 country at the time.

13 At that time, I -- as I've already said, the presidents of the

14 presidencies of the different federal units had changed. European envoys

15 had actually mediated in that effort too. It was very hard to reach

16 agreement because Slovenia had already opted for secession and Croatia

17 increasingly so.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who was bandying this about and what -- through

19 what medium?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, these rumours were skilfully

21 being bandied about. I could not say exactly by who, but in several media

22 this kind of idea appeared, and as a rule these were media that were

23 already at that time being financed from the West by different Western

24 intelligence agencies, so that's the kind of media I'm talking about. In

25 Belgrade, for example, it was the Borba Daily. Borba before that was a

Page 43656

1 federal communist newspaper. During the time of the Ante Markovic

2 government, it did not only have an opposition view towards the government

3 in Serbia but it openly advocated a Western policy, the policy of the

4 Western powers. It is possible that quite a bit of this came from Ante

5 Markovic's government because Ante Markovic was afraid of a possible

6 agreement between Milosevic and Tudjman, which would keep Yugoslavia

7 together under certain conditions, but Ante Markovic would have been

8 eliminated.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I wish to draw your attention, Mr. Robinson, to the fact that at

12 one stage we had the transcript here from a secret meeting of the Defence

13 counsel of Croatia presided over by Tudjman. He was meeting his closest

14 collaborators and commenting on this story about Karadjordjevo. This

15 denies the idea that what we discussed was some sort of division of

16 Bosnia. I will, however, check whether this has already been admitted

17 into evidence and if not we will find this transcript.

18 However, what matters here, Mr. Seselj, is something to do with

19 you as you were an active participant in all political events. This

20 meeting took place on the 25th of March, and allegedly we discussed the

21 division of Bosnia. Did I or any other politician from Serbia or any

22 member of the leadership of the time in all of that year, at the beginning

23 of which this meeting between Tudjman and me took place, did we in any way

24 even indirectly raise the issue of a division of Bosnia?

25 A. No. On the contrary. You tried to convince Izetbegovic that even

Page 43657

1 if Slovenia and Croatia seceded Bosnia should remain in a Rump Yugoslavia

2 as an equal federal unit, that the Bosnian Muslims would be recognised as

3 a constituent nation as they had been before in the previous

4 constitutional theory and practice, and that Izetbegovic would be the

5 first president of such a Rump Yugoslavia, in order to demonstrate that it

6 was not the aim of the Serbs to dominate but simply to preserve the joint

7 state. At one point Izetbegovic agreed to this, but then the Americans

8 persuaded him to call off the agreement.

9 Q. Look at paragraph 63 now. It repeats this allegation. It

10 says: "On the 3rd of October, 1991, the four members of the SFRY

11 Presidency from Serbia and Montenegro, Borisav Jovic, Jugoslav Kostic,

12 Sejdo Bajramovic, and Branko Kostic, assume the function of the SFRY

13 Presidency, circumventing the controls and responsibilities of the

14 Presidency members from Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

15 Macedonia."

16 On the 3rd of October, 1991, they assumed the function. Was this

17 a kind of takeover of the function of the Presidency or were these

18 functions being carried out by the legal representatives?

19 A. There was absolutely no takeover. When four of the members of the

20 Presidency withdrew and some of them officially gave notice that they were

21 no longer members, like Drnovsek, for instance, while others simply

22 stopped attending the sessions. The Presidency continued working with the

23 members who -- whom it was possible to gather together.

24 I suggest that the Chamber get hold of this piece of legislation.

25 I cannot quote it verbatim right now, but I'm absolutely sure it existed.

Page 43658












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 43659

1 And according to this piece of legislation, even if the majority of

2 members could not meet, the Presidency under certain circumstances would

3 continue working with the members who were present.

4 Let me remind you that in the spring of 1991 or in the early

5 summer, there was a vote taken to declare a imminent threat of war.

6 Q. In paragraph 65 it says: "On or around the 22nd of October, 1991,

7 Slobodan Milosevic, together with other members of the joint criminal

8 enterprise, continued to advocate for a unitary Serb state governed from

9 Belgrade, Serbia. On the same date, the Rump Presidency called for the

10 mobilisation of reservists in Serbia and other regions that want to stay

11 in Yugoslavia."

12 First of all, let's establish when I began advocating a unitary

13 Serb state, because it says here that I continued to advocate it. And

14 secondly, was this anyone's idea that there should be a unitary Serbia,

15 and is a unitary Serbia the same thing as Yugoslavia, and has Serbia ever

16 been a unitary state?

17 A. No. You never advocated any kind of unitary state either as

18 Yugoslavia or as Serbia. We Serb nationalists criticised you personally

19 and your government in 1990 at the time the referendum was held to adopt

20 the new non-communist democratic constitution of Serbia because the

21 autonomous provinces were not abolished in that constitution. We, the

22 Serb nationalists, felt there was no longer any need for the existence of

23 autonomous provinces. I was one of the loudest advocates of such an

24 option.

25 Furthermore, when the four former federal units had already been

Page 43660

1 recognised, and this ended on the 6th of April, 1992, you agreed with the

2 Montenegrin leadership that a Federal Republic of Yugoslavia be

3 promulgated and that Yugoslavia be preserved even if it was a Rump

4 Yugoslavia and that it should remain a federation. In my view, it would

5 have been possible for you to convince the Montenegrin leadership -

6 because that was the mood of the Montenegrin people - to accept a unitary

7 Serbian state to dispense with the federation. You could have done this

8 but didn't want to, and I am sorry that you didn't do that, because up to

9 the point when you left your position of power in the former Yugoslavia --

10 in Yugoslavia, none of the leaders advocated a separatist option. It

11 appeared in Montenegro only after the 5th of October, 2000.

12 Q. Did you hear at that time or any other time either from me or any

13 of my close collaborators, any government officials, including those who

14 were allegedly together with me in a joint criminal enterprise that we had

15 any kind of plan to create a unitary Serbian state?

16 A. No. No state official who belonged to your party or collaborated

17 with you advocated such an idea.

18 Q. What do you know about the mobilisation of reservists? Because it

19 says here that the Federal Presidency called for the mobilisation of

20 reservists. So what do you know about this? What do you know about the

21 reasons, the time, and the conditions under which this mobilisation was

22 called for?

23 A. I'm not sure that the Federal Presidency called for a mobilisation

24 of reservists at all, because it is the JNA organs who are competent to

25 mobilise reservists. It was the Federal Presidency that ordered the JNA

Page 43661

1 to take necessary measures to preserve the constitutional order, the

2 territorial integrity, and the sovereignty of the country. I know that

3 this mobilisation didn't go well. The response was very poor, because

4 Veljko Kadijevic, as minister of defence, didn't want to remove the

5 communist insignia from the military uniforms.

6 The Presidency, primarily the federal government but also the

7 Presidency, at the insistence of Stipe Mesic and Ante Markovic, who was

8 Prime Minister, issued a decision on the intervention of the JNA in

9 Slovenia. As far as I know, the leadership of Serbia was not in favour of

10 such an intervention. It was not in favour of sending additional troops

11 into Slovenia, nor was it in favour of the JNA clashing with the then

12 leadership of Slovenia in spite of their separatist tendencies. As far as

13 I know, Serbia wanted negotiations. However, the Slovenian leadership

14 which had been encouraged by the West no longer wanted to talk.

15 Q. Thank you. Witness B071 mentioned on more than one occasion your

16 name, so just as I asked you about a whole number of witnesses, I will ask

17 you now to briefly tell me whether what he said was true. B071, on 1st of

18 April, 2003, on page 18347 of the transcript said that Arkan's and

19 Seselj's men looted property and took everything off to Serbia. Do you

20 know anything about this? First of all, did your people loot property and

21 cart it off to Serbia; and secondly, did your men have any kind of

22 cooperation with Arkan's volunteer guard?

23 A. No and no. First of all, the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party

24 did not loot property anywhere or take it off to Serbia. When I assert

25 that, I'm saying that there was no organised looting anywhere and no

Page 43662

1 organised taking off of war booty. Perhaps certain individuals stole as

2 much as they could stuff into their pockets or into their shirt-front.

3 That's a different matter. But as far as the volunteers of the Serb

4 Radical Party go, there was no organised looting or carting off war booty

5 to Serbia. I guarantee that.

6 The volunteers of the Serb Radical Party were under strict

7 instructions to avoid any contacts or encounters with Arkan and his Serb

8 volunteer guard up to the --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm asking why was that instruction given to the

10 volunteers of the Serb Radical Party?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were afraid of being compromised.

12 We didn't want to lose our honour, our good name, our dignity. We didn't

13 want people's awareness of our honesty and morality to be upset.

14 As I told you, I already had conflicts with Arkan in the 1980s,

15 long before the war, and this was repeated again and again. We had

16 quarrels. I was even once told by the state security service that I was

17 in danger of being assassinated by Arkan. Stanisic Jovicic repeated this

18 in the Detention Unit of the Tribunal before many inmates.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Seselj, how can you be sure, notwithstanding

20 that instruction, that your men, the volunteers, did not associate with

21 Arkan and did not, in fact, loot? I mean, how can you be sure? You're

22 not there with them.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that not a single

24 volunteer of the Serb Radical Party cooperated with Arkan. There's one

25 instance that I remember very well. In Eastern Slavonia, a certain man, a

Page 43663

1 teacher from Zemun, arrived there as a volunteer of the Serb Radical

2 Party. When his group returned from the battlefield, it was a group of

3 about 100 men who came home after a month, he decided not to come back

4 but, rather, to remain, and he joined Arkan. He was killed as one of

5 Arkan's men. Arkan and I met at his funeral.

6 So, yes, there might have been exceptions, but there was no joint

7 military activity. There might have been individuals who cooperated with

8 Arkan because they had interests of their own, but I constantly kept a

9 distance from Arkan.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. That evidence is clear.

11 Mr. Milosevic.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. This same witness, B071 says, on the 10th of April, 2003, on

14 transcript page 18949, the beginnings of the aggression against Croatia

15 took place from Mrkovci and Jankovci and with infiltration of Seselj's

16 White Eagles.

17 First of all, what kind of aggression against Croatia is this; and

18 secondly, what kind much men were these, these Seselj's White Eagles?

19 A. There could have been absolutely no kind of aggression. The Serb

20 people organised their own defence wherever they felt at threat. I have

21 already said that before sending volunteers to the JNA we sent a group of

22 volunteers to Borovo Selo at the invitation of Sacorcanin [phoen]. After

23 that, as far as I can recall, because I visited Mrkovci during the war, we

24 had volunteers in Mrkovci as well but only as part of the JNA. We never

25 had anything to do with any group called the White Eagles.

Page 43664

1 There was one volunteer from the Serb national renewal in Borovo

2 Selo but their name then was not the White Eagles but Dusan Silni, and he

3 was killed as soon as the Croatian attack began even though he was not

4 carrying a weapon at the time. After that, we had no cooperation and no

5 joint military activities.

6 Q. Let's clarify this. It doesn't say here that you cooperated. It

7 says here: "With infiltration of Seselj's White Eagles." So the White

8 Eagles are being ascribed to you.

9 A. Unfortunately, this is not the only instance of Office of the

10 Prosecutor bringing witnesses here who don't no anything about what

11 happened on the ground. It's simply nonsense to talk of a group called

12 Seselj's White Eagles. This simply serves to impeach both the witness and

13 the Prosecutor who called such a witness, because this witness didn't know

14 what he was talking about.

15 Q. This same witness, B071, B means Bosnia, on the 10th of April,

16 2003, on page 19003 of the transcript said that "Seselj collected men in

17 Erdut, trained them there, armed them, and sent them to Bosnia." Is that

18 true, Mr. Seselj?

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, I have to tell you that it was B1493

20 who testified on 10th of April. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, perhaps I made a mistake

22 in my notes. However, that is the assertion that is to be found on that

23 particular page, and the page is 19003.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Now, did you rally people in Erdut, train them, arm them, and send

Page 43665

1 them to Bosnia?

2 A. During the war in Eastern Slavonia, only on one occasion was I in

3 Erdut, and I think that I mentioned meeting Radovan Stojicic, Badza,

4 nicknamed Badza there in Erdut on that occasion. So that is the only

5 time. I would pass by Erdut in the car but without stopping. So I was --

6 we never sent any men there and we never had any training centre there

7 either, and I can state that quite categorically.

8 The people from the Serbian Radical Party who went prior to the

9 war and at the beginning of the war to Bosnia and Herzegovina were

10 exclusively within the composition of the JNA. They were JNA men. So I

11 absolute -- they absolutely had nothing to do with Arkan's centre in Erdut

12 later on. We never had anything to do with it.

13 Q. Witness 1070, on the 7th of May, 2003, and the transcript is

14 20294, says that Arkan's and Seselj's men shot above the heads of the

15 civilians who had been taken prisoner in the gym -- secondary school in

16 Bratunac. Now, did you have any men in Bratunac who did this, who

17 mistreated and abused the civilians?

18 A. At the beginning of the war and never again later on the Serbian

19 Radical Party never had any volunteers in Bratunac, and to the best of my

20 knowledge Arkan didn't appear in Bratunac either. Arkan appeared in

21 Zvornik, for example, and Bijeljina. As far as I know, he was never in

22 Bratunac either. And I've already said that in Bratunac there was

23 Deronjic who brought in the White Eagles. Now, what things they did there

24 I was not a witness to, but I know what Deronjic did there, and I have

25 very certain knowledge about that, reliable knowledge.

Page 43666

1 Q. That same witness, on transcript 20351 says that Seselj's men were

2 in Bratunac on the 17th of April. Between the White Eagles and Seselj's

3 mean there is no difference, says he.

4 A. That just shows how reliable the witness is. If he can't see any

5 difference between the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party and the

6 White Eagles on the other side, then he is not well-versed in matters at

7 all. And that's not the only case. I have seen similar instances in some

8 judgements that were made whereby witnesses stated that they happened to

9 see in some other places Seselj's White Eagles. But as I say, that is the

10 problem of The Hague Prosecutor and the unreliability of the witnesses

11 which it manipulates.

12 Q. Witness Dzemail Becirevic also testified here and mentioned you on

13 several occasions, and this one is on page 20516. He says that he saw --

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I haven't been able to check this myself

15 because the accused hasn't been getting the references correct, and it's

16 quite difficult to follow this material, but I think, and I'm grateful to

17 Ms. Dicklich, the last reference said to come from the same witness came

18 (redacted).

19 But, really, I'm afraid we've got to have correct references for the

20 witnesses. We can't simply just go to the page in the transcript.

21 Frequently our page numbers don't necessarily coincide here in court, and

22 without reference to the witnesses it's very difficult to pick it up

23 later.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I ask you to be more careful in

25 pinpointing the names of the witnesses to whom you're referring. Now,

Page 43667

1 Judge Kwon has already corrected you once, and apparently there is another

2 mistake in the reference.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps there might be a

4 mistake with the name, but there is no mistake with the quotation from the

5 transcript, and my question relates to the material facts which are being

6 mentioned here.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we have to follow it, Mr. Milosevic. There

8 is duty on you to be more careful.

9 Please proceed.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. Robinson. And I'll

11 check this out to see whether indeed it is the same witness from

12 page 20352, the transcript line and page, the quotation that I mentioned

13 earlier on or, rather, 20351 is the exact number. I'll check that out

14 during the break.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Now, Witness Dzemail Becirevic, on page 20516 of the transcript

17 said that on television he saw the occupation of Bijeljina on the 31st of

18 March, 2002 -- 1992 and Zvornik in which Arkan's men took part as well as

19 Seselj's men and the JNA. Do you know anything about that, about the

20 occupation of Bijeljina in fact? Did anybody in fact occupy Bijeljina on

21 the 30th of March, 1992, and Zvornik, and what the participation was of

22 your volunteers in those events or did they take part at all?

23 A. First of all, nobody occupied either Zvornik or Bijeljina. What

24 happened there or, rather, in Zvornik there was an armed conflict between

25 the JNA on one side and the Muslim paramilitaries on the other. The

Page 43668

1 Muslim paramilitary units in the town of Zvornik were routed very quickly.

2 However, there was much fighting on the fortress above Zvornik. It went

3 on for days. The fighting went on for days there. And in that fighting

4 the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party did take part. Arkan was

5 there, too, as was the Serbian volunteer guards. To the best of my

6 knowledge, they did not arrive with the JNA, but they came at the call of

7 the local Territorial Defence there. And I think that it would be easy to

8 establish that on the basis of documents and the way things stood on the

9 ground there.

10 I know -- have reliable information that the commands and the

11 officers of the JNA also tried to sidestep collaborating with Arkan's and

12 the Tigers or, rather, the Serbian volunteer guard, and that there was a

13 great deal of animosity between the two sides throughout the war, and very

14 rarely did any JNA officer wish to collaborate with Arkan.

15 As far as Bijeljina is concerned, to the best of my knowledge,

16 over there the JNA was not involved in the local conflicts but Arkan did

17 appear. To the best of my knowledge, most probably he appeared at the

18 call of Biljana Plavsic. I can't prove that, but I do know that Biljana

19 Plavsic arrived in Bijeljina subsequently and that she had a very friendly

20 meeting with Arkan in front of the television crew and in public. The

21 volunteers of the Serbian radical guards during the conflict in Bijeljina

22 were not there, but there were people who had already joined up in the

23 Serbian Radical Party, but they were locals from Bijeljina. They were

24 residents of Bijeljina, and they rose to arms, and they took part in the

25 conflicts in Bijeljina. But they also set a distance between themselves

Page 43669

1 and Arkan, especially with Mauzer who was Arkan's right-hand man. And in

2 Serbia we didn't send a single volunteer to Bijeljina ourselves.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, may I ask you just to clarify something

4 for me in relation to the Prosecution's case. In the Bosnia indictment

5 the allegation is that the accused either alone or in concert with other

6 members of the joint criminal enterprise committed certain crimes. As the

7 Prosecution case unfolded, you're not saying, are you, that he acted

8 alone. Your case is, as I understand it, that he acted in concert with

9 other members of the joint criminal enterprise.

10 MR. NICE: Correct. I haven't reviewed each and every allegation

11 to check that there isn't one there that may be susceptible to individual

12 perpetration, but, no, the allegation is working with others.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that he's working with others.

14 MR. NICE: Yes.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It seems to me that is -- that is virtually

16 your case. It's not that he acted alone.

17 MR. NICE: Subject to the point I've just made.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Subject to the point you've made, yes.

19 MR. NICE: Yes.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Thank you.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Very well, Mr. Seselj. You've just heard that explanation too.

23 Now, since you know the relationships very well between people at that

24 time, you know the situation, you said that Arkan was in Bijeljina and

25 Zvornik yourself. Now, did I or any organs of power and authority have

Page 43670












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13 English transcripts.













Page 43671

1 anything to do with Arkan's volunteer guard?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice is on his feet.

3 MR. NICE: I was just reflecting on the initial answer I gave and

4 I think perhaps there's this qualification, although I don't think it is a

5 qualification: Of course one of the things that we say as against this

6 accused is that by setting in train the things that he does at the top

7 political level, he causes events to happen on the ground which are

8 criminal in nature. It's the standard method of generation of

9 genocidal-type acts as we revealed in, for example, the report of Mr. Zvar

10 [phoen].

11 Now, of course, in those circumstances, one is acting with other

12 people. The degree to which those people will be associated together may

13 be minimal or non-existent on a personal and practical basis and so in

14 those circumstances it might be appropriate to think of the accused acting

15 alone in certain circumstances, but that's the only qualification I think

16 I should make.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think it's a point that will warrant some

18 consideration later on, yes.

19 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So Arkan is mentioned here as well as Mauzer. Did I or anybody

22 else from the leadership of Serbia have anything to do with Arkan at all

23 and with Mauzer separately? Could you explain that to us, Mr. Seselj?

24 A. I'm quite certain that you had nothing to do with Arkan or Mauzer.

25 On the Serbian political arena, everybody held back from having any open

Page 43672

1 contacts with Arkan.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you ask of this witness so many

3 questions of a general nature without establishing the basis for the

4 evidence he's giving. So that, for example, in relation to this, I mean,

5 how is the witness able to say whether you had anything to do with Arkan

6 or Mauzer?

7 He's giving evidence. He's saying that you had nothing to do with

8 him. But in order for it to be more credible, it would be important to

9 establish how he's in a position to make that statement.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Seselj, is it - how shall I put this - something secret that

12 cannot be known by others or can we claim in any way that somebody from

13 the authorities, I, myself, or somebody else had any contacts or

14 relationship with Arkan or Mauzer?

15 A. In Belgrade you couldn't hide anything like that. It would be

16 impossible to hide anything like that in Belgrade, because Belgrade is

17 that kind of city. Even the biggest secrets trickle down and become

18 public.

19 Second, Arkan on the Serbian political arena had close contacts

20 only with Zoran Djindjic. And I've already spoken about the relationship

21 between Djindjic and Mauzer. Mauzer was Djindjic's vice-president and the

22 president of the party for Republika Srpska, and Djindjic took part in his

23 pre-electoral campaign.

24 Q. Let's clarify one more point now. In Bijeljina, for instance, did

25 you have the kind of structure of the Serbian Radical Party as would be

Page 43673

1 able to inform you precisely about all the events that took police in

2 Bijeljina?

3 A. Yes. The Serbian Radical Party was not organised in Bijeljina

4 sufficiently at that time. However, the people that we had there,

5 including Mirko Blagojevic who is mentioned in some testimony during this

6 trial, kept me well-informed and reliably informed about all the events

7 that went on in Bijeljina. And at any rate, our Municipal Board in

8 Bijeljina, for example, on a number of occasions made public statements

9 and held press conferences at which they energetically condemned and

10 severely criticised Mauzer's conduct, especially Mauzer's conduct towards

11 the Muslim civilians, for example. And those documents exist, and I am

12 preparing them for my own trial, which doesn't seem to be starting.

13 Q. The same witness, Becirevic, on 20521, says that during the attack

14 on the area around Konjevic Pole, Cerska and Kamenica, in addition to the

15 JNA and the so-called local Serb units, there was also participation by

16 the Red Berets or, rather, Arkan's and Seselj's men. So that's the

17 quotation. And now what is being linked and defined here is that Arkan's

18 and Seselj's men were together with some Red Berets. What kind of Red

19 Berets were they? What Arkan's men were they, Seselj's men were they

20 around Konjevic Pole and Kamenica that the witness is referring to?

21 A. In testimony seems to be very confused quite obviously because the

22 witness don't seem to know what the Red Berets are. Perhaps he happened

23 to see some soldiers wearing red berets in the form of a cap, just a red

24 cap, and then came to the conclusion that that was the name of the unit.

25 And then he -- the witness doesn't know whether they were Seselj's men or

Page 43674

1 Arkan's men or it seems to be all the same to this witness. So it's

2 highly imprecise, a highly imprecise testimony, a testimony off the top of

3 his head. And I insist upon the fact that it is impossible to identify

4 so-called Seselj's men and Arkan's men and these alleged Red Berets.

5 As for the Red Berets, I've already given you reliable facts about

6 them and said that name appeared in different situations relating to

7 different military formations and units, starting with the Srpska Krajina

8 area where these people were linked to the Captain Dragan camp, and then

9 the army of Republika Srpska where the Red Berets were warn by members of

10 the intervention or reconnoitering units, reconnaissance units, up until

11 the special purpose units, too, belonging to the State Security Service of

12 Serbia which was established in 1996. And there intentionally this

13 misunderstanding is being developed so that certain things can be ascribed

14 to people with -- which they had nothing to do with.

15 Q. Witness Osman Selak on page 22312 of the transcript says the

16 following: "Seselj said that all the officers of the army of Yugoslavia

17 who were Muslims and Croats had to be replaced and this part was done."

18 That's when this witness claims.

19 A. Osman Selak is not somebody who is not serious. He's a colonel by

20 rank, and throughout the war, as far as I know, he was the Chief of Staff

21 of the 1st Krajina Corps of the army of Republika Srpska. So he was the

22 number two man after General Momir Talic, for example, if that's the same

23 Osman Selak that you're referring to.

24 Q. Well, I can't tell you that.

25 A. Osman Selak was a high-ranking officer of the army of

Page 43675

1 Republika Srpska, and when he says that I said something somewhere, made a

2 statement somewhere, then he must say where I said it, when I said it,

3 what the circumstances were in which I said it.

4 I did give a similar statement in Belgrade, for example, after the

5 secession of individual federal units. I called from the JNA. Slovenia

6 seceded, and I asked that the Slovenians step down from military service,

7 and for the most part, including Admiral Stane Brovet retired, and he

8 personally was against Slovenian separatism might I add.

9 As far as the Muslims are concerned, the Muslims from

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina no longer had any grounds for remaining in the army of

11 Yugoslavia but the Muslims from the territory of Serbia or Sandzak and

12 Raska they stayed on; they remained there. And we have a series of

13 examples of Muslims of that kind who were officers of the Yugoslav army

14 perform their duty very honourably.

15 So the citizens --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I would be assisted by knowing whether you are

18 saying that you did make such a statement or you didn't make such a

19 statement.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Bonomy, how can I know if

21 you don't show me something like that here, where and when. Let us see

22 the statement concerned. Let me identify it. I gave thousands and

23 thousands of statements in public. They were publicly recorded. They

24 were published. So let's see.

25 My objection is precisely in that. Why did this Osman Selak not

Page 43676

1 say where and when?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: That's helpful to some extent. Does it follow from

3 the answer you've just given that you could have said it?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could have said it along the

5 following lines, that those in the army who came from the renegade

6 republics in principle should not remain at positions in the Yugoslav

7 army. You see, if Slovenia seceded and if all the Slovenian people live

8 in Slovenia quite literally, then why would there be Slovenian officers in

9 the army of Yugoslavia, and what kind of authority can they have as

10 officers?

11 JUDGE BONOMY: That's simply confusing me further. The quote was

12 that you said that all officers of the army of Yugoslavia who were Muslims

13 and Croats had to be replaced and that was done. Now, are you saying that

14 you could possibly have made that statement in these terms?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not saying that I made that kind

16 of statement. I did not give the kind of statement that Osman Selak

17 testified about. I could have made a similar statement along very precise

18 lines, but that statement has to be found. Where, to who, when? Osman

19 Selak saw that in the newspapers or on television, but that has to be

20 established. I assume that would be the practice of this Office of the

21 Prosecutor as well, to fine the mentioned newspaper and to see exactly

22 what I said.

23 I am never going to refute any statement I ever made to anyone,

24 but it has to be a precise reconstruction. What you're asking me to do is

25 to comment upon a version of an alleged statement that I made in Osman

Page 43677

1 Selak's view or how he perceives my statement. Well, I cannot really make

2 my statements suit what he believes my statements might have been.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Seselj, I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm

4 trying to understand the answer you've given to the question asked by

5 Mr. Milosevic. And I think from what you've just said, the problem is

6 that you've been studying this yourself, and you're trying to justify a

7 position of your own without really dealing specifically with the question

8 that's being asked of you, and the simple answer to the question appears

9 now to be that you couldn't possibly have made a statement of that nature,

10 although you might have said something much more specific about different

11 people but not just in general about Muslims and Croats.

12 Now, is that a fair summary of your position?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not sure, by think you're

14 very close. However, in order to help you, I'm going to give you an

15 example.

16 Throughout 1991 and even in 1992, from time to time we were

17 informed of the following: Such-and-such an officer, an ethnic Croat,

18 escaped from Serbia to Croatia. Many of them took carloads of

19 confidential documents with them. As a matter of fact, sometime in 1998

20 we had the following situation: Robert Ivanovic, a Croat, commander of

21 the military music band of the 1st Army District in Belgrade went with his

22 family abroad legally and then he went to Croatia and he still lives

23 there.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Seselj, this doesn't remotely sound as if it's

25 going to be at all helpful to me, so we'll proceed with Mr. Milosevic's

Page 43678

1 questions. You have to bear in mind that the question that was put to you

2 was about a statement made by a witness that was plainly a racist

3 statement, and why it should be so difficult to deal with such a simple

4 issue I'm not at all sure. However, Mr. Milosevic can explore it further

5 if he wishes.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let Mr. Milosevic ask the next question.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. Robinson. I protest in

11 no uncertain terms because of the qualification made by Mr. Bonomy that

12 any statement of mine could have considered racist. First of all, never

13 in my life have I made a racist statement.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Bonomy never said that, Mr. Seselj.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He just did.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, he never said that. Not at all.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Seselj --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he just said so just now.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's nothing for you to respond to.

21 Mr. Milosevic, the next question.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Seselj, I'm afraid that this is a pure misunderstanding. I

24 put a concrete question to you. In order to spell it out in more specific

25 terms and in order to avoid any kind of misunderstanding it was stated

Page 43679

1 here that "Seselj had stated that all officers of the army of Yugoslavia

2 who were Muslims or Croats would have to be removed." Did you ever state

3 that?

4 A. No, I didn't say it that way.

5 Q. So you didn't say it that way --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... matter.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: And why on earth it should take all this time to

8 establish that simple issue, I do not know.

9 Perhaps it would help, Mr. Seselj, if you just listened to the

10 questions and answer the question that's actually asked rather than try to

11 make political statements about your own position.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not making political statements,

14 Mr. Bonomy.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Seselj, Witness Baron van Linden spoke about you here. He

17 mentioned only a few facts, so I would like to ask you to check whether

18 those facts are correct. And first of all, I'm interested in the

19 circumstances involved if it did happen. The page is 26758. "Just after

20 the bombing Seselj came to Pale." And then on page 26762 he

21 says: "Seselj came to Pale immediately after the first NATO ultimatum to

22 support the Bosnian Serbs." These are a few facts that referred to.

23 Could you please explain the circumstances involved. What is this

24 actually all about?

25 A. I went to Pale several times, and whenever the leadership of

Page 43680

1 Republika Srpska was under pressure from the West I publicly supported the

2 leadership of Republika Srpska, because the Western powers were openly

3 engaged in an anti-Serb policy.

4 As for the Markale Market, the two explosions, one at the market

5 itself, and the other one near the market as well as the explosion in the

6 street of Vasa Miskin at the partisan cemetery near the old brewery, these

7 are explosions that were organised by the Muslim leadership, regardless of

8 whether the explosives were planted on the actual spot or whether mortar

9 shells were fired from elsewhere at one of these sites.

10 This was a trigger event that was staged in order to accuse the

11 Serbs and to justify the sanctions that were imposed immediately, the

12 threats that were made, and so on and so forth.

13 Q. So, Mr. Seselj, if I understood you correctly, when you went there

14 you did so only to give political support to the leadership of

15 Republika Srpska in situations when they were exposed to pressure and

16 bombing.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Witness B1445 said on page 27608: "In January or February

19 1992" -- please bear the dates in mind, January, February 1992, "Arkan's

20 and Seselj's units arrived in Doboj."

21 Is this a fact? Is it founded on facts at all?

22 A. No. It is absolutely impossible. In January or February 1992,

23 there were no military operations in Doboj and the surrounding area.

24 Secondly, volunteers of the Serb Radical Party were not sent to

25 Doboj even through the JNA. As far as I know, Arkan's Tigers never

Page 43681

1 operated in Doboj either. This is a total fabrication.

2 Q. Now, could you please give as precise an answer as possible to

3 this question. It has to do with witness Sead Omeragic who said on

4 transcript page 27738, quite explicitly, "Mirko Blagojevic," that is to

5 say, that official of yours that you mentioned a while ago, he

6 says: "Mirko Blagojevic was the organiser of the conflict in Bijeljina,

7 and he was a member of the Serb Radical Party and had contacts with

8 Seselj."

9 I am not asking you whether he was a member of the Serb Radical

10 Party or whether he had contacts with you, but this assertion made that

11 Mirko Blagojevic was the organiser of the conflict in Bijeljina. So

12 please deal with that assertion of this witness which is contained in the

13 transcript. Is it correct or not?

14 A. First and foremost a conflict is not organised. An attack is

15 organised, defence is organised, but a conflict is not organised. A

16 conflict occurs when two armed formations clash.

17 Mirko Blagojevic took part in the conflict that occurred in

18 Bijeljina but only in the military armed conflict. When the Muslim

19 formations were defeated, Mirko Blagojevic no longer participated in any

20 conflicts. And I guarantee with my own life that he took part in no

21 looting, no persecutions, no maltreatment of the civilian population and

22 so on and so forth. I'm absolutely certain of that.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. I can fully identify with everything that Mirko Blagojevic did.

25 It is to that degree that I'm certain that he never did anything against

Page 43682












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13 English transcripts.













Page 43683

1 the law.

2 Q. Witness B1780, on transcript pages 28220 and 221 says: "Seselj's

3 men tortured prisoners at the Ekonomija farm."

4 A. Where is this Ekonomija farm?

5 Q. My understanding is it's somewhere near Zvornik.

6 A. That's quite impossible too. The volunteers of the Serb Radical

7 Party took part in the Zvornik operation while the JNA was operating there

8 in brief fighting in town itself and somewhat longer fighting that went on

9 for a few days on the fortress above the town where the resistance of the

10 Muslim paramilitaries was quite strong. Once the conflict was brought to

11 an end, the JNA withdrew, and the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party

12 withdrew.

13 I preclude any possibility of having the volunteers engaged on

14 guarding prisoners of war or detaining civilians. Had that kind of thing

15 happened, I would have had to know about it.

16 Q. All right. Mirsad Kucanin, another witness, claims that you

17 personally killed a Serb named Vasiljevic under the following

18 circumstances: On transcript page 28966, he says the following: "Seselj,

19 on Serb television, indicated a 7.9 calibre weapon and he personally fired

20 it at Muslims in Sarajevo." This was shown on television, and he said

21 that you permanently killed a Serb called Vasiljevic there.

22 A. First of all, I remember what happened very well. I was at

23 Grbavica. At that time, under the protection of the so-called

24 international observers, the Muslims tried by digging trenches to go

25 around the Serb positions on the outskirts of Sarajevo and to attack the

Page 43684

1 Serb forces from the back. From Grbavica 1, from the building which was

2 an apartment building but due to Muslim fire it was totally destroyed, I

3 used a Browning machine-gun from there. It's a heavy machine-gun. I

4 couldn't carry it anywhere. It is a heavy machine-gun. You cannot carry

5 it around.

6 Q. But he says on page 28967 that you carried a Browning.

7 A. You cannot carry it. It's too long. It was installed in that

8 building, and I used that Browning to target the Muslims in the trenches

9 below the UN observation posts. I was firing from the Browning. Some of

10 the volunteers from the Serb Radical Party from the Jewish cemetery was

11 firing from a recoilless gun, and the trenches were still being dug, and

12 the top of the trenches was hit. Whether somebody got killed there is

13 something I don't know. It could have only been the Muslim soldiers who

14 could have been killed, because -- and that would please me, because this

15 small participation of mine in the war had thereby yielded some effects.

16 A Serb in the Muslim army could have been killed there. In that

17 case, he was the enemy. Also, it could have been a Serb who had been

18 forced by the Muslims to dig trenches. Then his killing is the fault of

19 those who in violation of international law of war brought him out there

20 to dig trenches, not those who --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. What Witness Miroslav Deronjic said, is that true, on page 29626,

24 that at the beginning of April Seselj's men arrived in the area of

25 Bratunac and Zvornik.

Page 43685

1 A. That is an intentional fabrication on Deronjic's part. He knows

2 full well who he brought to the Bratunac area. However, you see, knowing

3 who he brought to Bratunac, he is linking up Zvornik and Bratunac and

4 making this sweeping statement Seselj's men arrived in Bratunac and

5 Zvornik. If they arrived in Zvornik, it's as if they were in Bratunac

6 too. The volunteers of the Serb Radical Party were not in Bratunac, so

7 Deronjic invented that.

8 In Bratunac there were the locals organised by Deronjic into the

9 Bratunac Brigade. At the beginning of the war it was Deronjic who was

10 commander of the Bratunac Brigade and then he had to withdraw because he

11 was not a trained officer in any way. When the army was consolidated,

12 then a professional officer came to be commander of the Bratunac Brigade.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Slow down. I think the interpreter is having

14 some difficulty.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.

16 You could have noticed, Mr. Robinson, that I have been trying as

17 of late to speak slowly, but sometimes, every now and then, I may forget

18 what you cautioned me about.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I had noticed, and the -- we are

20 appreciative of the effort you are making. You have answered the

21 question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the meantime --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you have answered that question.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So they were not in Bratunac at all?

Page 43686

1 A. No. The volunteers of the Serb Radical Party were not in

2 Bratunac.

3 Q. All right. So you are saying that he's not telling the truth.

4 The same witness, Deronjic, on page 29737, said that he does not

5 agree that Seselj was a true opposition.

6 A. The Hague OTP and Judge Schomburg on several occasions caught

7 Deronjic lying. And even in Deronjic's judgement you can find about seven

8 different points as ascertained by Judge Schomburg, namely that Deronjic

9 was lying.

10 Secondly, in the case of people who are inclined to a pro-Western

11 policy or are mercenaries of Western intelligence agencies, or in order to

12 save their own skin they go into plea bargaining with the OTP and

13 therefore appear as witnesses in the trials of other people, it can often

14 be heard that those who are really opposition but are not prepared to

15 serve the West --

16 MR. NICE: I'm not sure this is responsive to any question --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you interrupting me?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice is on his feet, Mr. Seselj, and he's

19 entitled to make an objection if he wishes.

20 MR. NICE: He was simply asked if the man was telling the truth.

21 We have his answer and he's now gone on to a long comment basically.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you have moved into the area of comment.

23 It's now time for the break.

24 Mr. Nice, I should say the question that I asked earlier related

25 to the Bosnia indictment.

Page 43687

1 We will break for 20 minutes.

2 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, you told me to check

6 the pages that Mr. Nice mentioned, 35 -- 20352 and 20351, that is. This

7 was Witness 1070.

8 On page 20351 he says that Seselj's men were in Bratunac and that

9 there was no difference between them and Seselj's men, the White Eagles,

10 that is.

11 And on page 20352, he says that between the 20-something of April

12 Seselj's and Arkan's men were in Bratunac together when some people were

13 deported. And Mr. Seselj answered questions about this. In the meantime,

14 the liaison officer had the transcript, and I have received a note saying

15 that both references are correct, both as regards page 20351 and 20352,

16 and these refer to Witness 1070. There was no error.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right, Mr. Milosevic. We'll do our own

18 check. Thank you for checking anyhow.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Seselj, this is the testimony of Miroslav Deronjic, who said

21 that you were not truly an opposition politician or, rather, that you

22 cooperated with the government and that therefore this idea of a joint

23 criminal enterprise is thereby confirmed. Were you in the opposition or

24 not?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Seselj.

Page 43688

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I personally -- I switched it

2 on.

3 Both the Serb Radical Party and I personally throughout this time

4 were distinctly in the opposition. We were as far in the opposition as

5 it's possible to be. From the ideological perspective now adopted by

6 Deronjic, only foreign mercenaries were considered to be in the

7 opposition. Western mercenaries, Western agents, this was a standpoint

8 often expressed in the media that were financed by the West, by various

9 government and non-government organisations. In their view, a true person

10 of the opposition was only someone who took instructions from Zimmerman or

11 Miles, the US ambassadors, in Belgrade. Who was the next one, Montgomery

12 and so on. Those who always spoke from patriotic positions while

13 criticising the government were not deemed to be proper opposition

14 politicians, and this logic is completely upside down.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness Ahmet Zulic says, and that's on page 30000 of the

17 transcript, he says that Seselj's men were stationed in the partisan

18 cemetery in Pobrezje, that doesn't matter so much but what matters is the

19 following, that they had come there to kill the Muslims.

20 A. Where is this place? Pobrezje? Where is it?

21 Q. I have a note here in Pobrezje. I can't be more specific than

22 that.

23 But let me put a question to you: Did your volunteers go anywhere

24 to kill all Muslims?

25 A. No. Nowhere did the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party go to

Page 43689

1 kill Muslims or Croats or any kind of civilians. Wherever they went, they

2 were part of the JNA, and they went there to fight against the

3 paramilitary units that wanted to break up Yugoslavia.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, it's important to know the

5 location. I'm not sure whether Mr. Nice or Mr. Kay can help. Your note

6 doesn't identify clearly the name of this place?

7 MR. NICE: I tried to make an electronic search but for various

8 reasons it doesn't work at the moment or doesn't work for this witness on

9 this particular part of his evidence. I'll try again.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

11 JUDGE KWON: You said Pobrezje.

12 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. The same witness, Ahmet Zulic, on page 30047, says in Sanski Most

15 there was no fighting, but the civilians fled because Seselj's men were

16 there.

17 Your men caused fear among civilians, although there was no

18 fighting there, as he says, in Sanski Most.

19 A. That is pure fabrication, because throughout the Bosnian Krajina,

20 throughout the Bosnian Krajina volunteers of the Serb Radical Party did

21 not fight in any location.

22 This reminds me of a well-known anecdote which says that in a

23 certain place inhabited by Muslims there was a notice on a shop saying

24 that sugar was arriving. This was when there was a shortage of sugar.

25 Somebody read this wrong and started yelling Seselj is arriving, Seselj is

Page 43690

1 arriving, and he spread panic.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that the Serbian word for

3 sugar resembles Mr. Seselj's name.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So there were no volunteers anywhere

5 in that area.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Look at paragraph 32 and what it says. In says here: "From the

8 1st of March or thereabouts until the 31st of December, 1995, Slobodan

9 Milosevic, acting alone or in concert with other members of the joint

10 criminal," and so on,"planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise

11 aided and abetted," and so on and so forth, all these phrases, "the

12 planning, preparation of the Bosnian Muslims as such living in territories

13 of Bijeljina, Bosanski Novo, Brcko, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor,

14 Sanski Most, and Srebrenica."

15 Tell me now, Mr. Seselj, as you mentioned here as a participant in

16 this joint criminal enterprise and you are being charged with alleged

17 crimes in these places, is there any basis for these allegations made

18 here?

19 A. No, there is absolutely no basis whatsoever, because no one from

20 Serbia caused conflicts in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Conflicts in Bosnia

21 and Herzegovina were caused by those who one-sidedly, unilaterally, wanted

22 to proclaim the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina contrary to the

23 will of the Serb people who were a constituent nation and by those in the

24 West who supported them. There was no planning, no preparation or

25 execution or extermination. There was no plan.

Page 43691

1 When the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina was recognised, in

2 many places there was simply an assault on the local government, not only

3 where the Serbs were in majority but also where the Muslims or the Croats

4 were in the majority, although the Croats took a lot in 1991. In 1991,

5 not a single municipality in Western Herzegovina where the Croats were the

6 majority population recognised the central government in Sarajevo. They

7 had already seceded from Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was in 1991.

8 Q. In paragraph 32, which I quoted, apart from Bijeljina where we

9 have already established who was there, Mauzer and Arkan, that is, the

10 other places mentioned are Bosanski Novi, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor,

11 Sanski Most, and Srebrenica. Was anyone from Serbia there participated in

12 any kind of military activities?

13 A. As far as I know, no. You see, as regards Srebrenica, sometime in

14 January, in early 1993, Srebrenica was already a UN protected area, but

15 the UN troops did nothing to disarm the Muslim units in Srebrenica,

16 although they were duty-bound to do so. The protection zone was

17 established, provided that all Muslim armed units in Srebrenica be

18 disarmed. That was the only way a protected area could function.

19 The Muslim forces from Srebrenica made incursions into Serbian

20 villages and killed many Serb civilians. In the beginning of 1993, there

21 were two groups of volunteers from the Serb Radical Party who were active

22 in the Skelani area, and they hurried to help the surrounded Serb forces

23 in the area of Jezero. This was in 1993 in Srebrenica. And that is the

24 only activity of volunteers of the Serb Radical Party in the Srebrenica

25 area. It was in the beginning of 1993.

Page 43692

1 As for Bosanski Novi, Brcko, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, and Sanski Most,

2 I don't know anyone from Serbia who went to fight there. Arkan turned up

3 only in 1995, when because of the NATO bombing, which was systematic all

4 over Serbia, a Muslim-Croat offensive was launched where the regular army

5 of the Republic of Croatia participated and led the offensive. Bosanska

6 Krajina was about to fall, and that was when Arkan turned up with his

7 volunteer guard, and I think that was his last involvement in the wars

8 there, in Sanski Most and Prijedor.

9 Q. Mr. Seselj, you know very well what kind of policy we proclaimed

10 and what kind of policy we implemented at the time. How does this policy

11 that we implemented correspond to what is alleged here, the destruction in

12 whole or in part, and then they list all these towns in Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina?

14 A. This is absolutely impossible. There was no such policy, and

15 there was no destruction that was planned. Everything that did happen

16 happened because of incidents caused by individuals and groups acting on

17 their own initiative, renegade groups, but there was no plan to commit

18 murders or anything of the kind.

19 Q. As in this Bosnia indictment, everything that happened in the war

20 in Bosnia and Herzegovina is mentioned and charged against me and the

21 other participants of the joint criminal enterprise as formulated by

22 Mr. Nice.

23 Look at paragraph 33. We've just been discussing paragraph 32. I

24 won't read the beginning of paragraph 33 because it's the same: "From on

25 or about the 1st of March, 1992," and so on and so forth, and then it

Page 43693

1 says: "On the territory of Banja Luka, Bihac, Bijeljina, Bosanska Krupa,

2 Bosanski Novi, Cajnice, Doboj, Foca, Gacko, Sarajevo (Ilijas), Kljuc,

3 Kalinovik, Kotor Varos, Nevesinje, Sarajevo, Novi Grad, Sarajevo, Novo

4 Sarajevo, Prijedor, Prnjavor, Rogatica, Rudo, Sanski Most, Srebrenica

5 again, Teslic, Visegrad, Vlasenica and Zvornik." Please --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are finished reading that list. Let me

7 remind you, Mr. Milosevic, that the Rule 98 bis decision found that there

8 was not enough evidence to support the allegation in paragraph 32 in

9 relation to some of the villages or municipalities mentioned. In fact, as

10 far as paragraph 32 is concerned, you need only concern yourself with

11 Brcko, Prijedor, Sanski Most, Srebrenica, Bijeljina, Kotor Varos, Kljuc,

12 Bosanski Novi. And I am checking to see whether the decision affected

13 paragraph 33.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, could you please let

15 me know what evidence, as you say there was no evidence for these places,

16 but what was the evidence that Mr. Nice presented here about the other

17 places linking me --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic. Mr. Milosevic, the Rule 98 bis

19 decision was published and was available to you. But I bring that to your

20 attention so we don't waste time. And I'll ask the legal officer to give

21 me the information in relation to paragraph 33.

22 Go ahead, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. As I was saying, Mr. Seselj, I read out a list here. It's a long

25 paragraph with all the names of the towns where I, together with others,

Page 43694












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Page 43695

1 am charged with working for the extermination of Muslims and Croats. You

2 know the policy of Serbia from that day as you are of all the actions that

3 referred to the course of the war in Croatia and Bosnia. Is this grounded

4 in any fact at all, any fact that you could quote?

5 A. Absolutely not. Because nobody from Serbia, even had they wanted

6 to, would have been able to cause a civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. A

7 civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was caused by those who unilaterally

8 wanted the Serb people over there to relinquish their status of a

9 constituent people.

10 And the question arises from there where are the Serbs from

11 Mostar, from Capljina, from Livno, the Serbs from Zenica, the Serbs from

12 Travnik? Where are the Serbs from Maglaj, for instance, or the Serbs from

13 many other places which were taken control of by the Muslims or Croats

14 during that civil war?

15 After the civil war broke out there was a great movement in the

16 population, both spontaneous, sometimes forceful. Sometimes crimes did

17 take place, but there was this general aspiration for everybody to join,

18 in figurative terms, their own birds of a feather flocking together, if I

19 can put it that way. So in that war crimes were committed. Sometimes

20 crimes were in response to crimes that had been committed previously,

21 sometimes it was criminals committing crimes through base motives,

22 criminal motives. Sometimes there was the urge for retaliation and

23 revenge. But on the Serb side, planned organised and systematic crimes

24 did not exist. That did not happen.

25 Q. Now, as this refers to me myself and the other members of the

Page 43696

1 joint criminal enterprise as it is alleged, including yourself, I'd like

2 to draw your attention to the time from the 1st of March to the 31st of

3 December, 1995, from 1992 to 1995, and in paragraph 32 and paragraph 33

4 and indeed paragraph 36 which I cannot understand because the same towns

5 are repeated there. The same qualifications are given for those towns

6 too. And then later on in paragraph 37 again.

7 So what was it that we dealt in? What was it that we did during

8 that period of time, that is to say, between March 1992 and the end of

9 December 1995, which was linked to the civil war in our neighbouring

10 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

11 A. After the withdrawal of the JNA, on the 19th of May, 1992, Serbia

12 or, rather, the authorities in Serbia and in the Federal Republic of

13 Yugoslavia in no way whatsoever took part in the war and war actions. It

14 did not send any armed units or formations, but it was its duty to help

15 materially, in material terms, to help Republika Srpska and the Serbs

16 living over there. So that was a period of time which showed different

17 political relationships between Serbia and Yugoslavia and the leadership

18 of Republika Srpska on the other side. Sometimes there was a period in

19 which those relationships were good, and sometimes there were deep

20 conflicts, and they didn't see eye-to-eye on many issues.

21 So throughout that time, throughout this period covered by the

22 indictment and that you -- they are trying to attempt to charge you with,

23 the leadership of Serbia and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia persevered

24 in looking for solutions to the problem and sometimes went too far

25 accepting the conditions of the peace plan which we Serb nationalists

Page 43697

1 attacked ourselves for our part.

2 So I cannot congratulate you on those aspects of your policy

3 dating back from that time, but based on the facts I insist upon the fact

4 that that policy was waged in order to find a peaceful solution at all

5 costs. That is to say, the slogans of your party was there is no

6 alternative to peace. You wanted peace at all cost, at any price, even at

7 the price of making concessions which the Serbs were not able to accept

8 because they were not able to take such great concessions.

9 Q. Very well. Now, bearing in mind that practice and the activities

10 of that period, how can you explain that somebody can enumerate all these

11 towns here in Bosnia in which allegedly the leadership of Serbia and I

12 personally committed these crimes, ordered, aided and abetted, organised,

13 et cetera, the wording of the indictment. Do you have any reason

14 explanation?

15 A. Yes, I do, and that's explanation is the following and the fact

16 that through you they are trying to try Serbia and the entire Serb people,

17 and --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is not an answer. In any event, it is not

19 an explanation that it is appropriate for you to give.

20 So please ask another question, Mr. Milosevic.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Seselj, paragraph 36 goes on to mention Banja Luka, Bihac,

23 Bijeljina, Bileca, Bosanska Krupa, Bosanski Novi, Bosanski Samac, Bratunac

24 again, Brcko again, Cajnice, Doboj, Foca again, Gacko, different places in

25 Sarajevo, Prijedor, Prnjavor, Rogatica, Sanski Most, Sokolac, Srebrenica,

Page 43698

1 Teslic, Visegrad, Vlasenica and Zvornik. Do you have anything to say with

2 regard to that point of the indictment?

3 A. I claim that in these places there was no systematic organised

4 crime. However, crimes did happen. I don't know whether in all the

5 places enumerated here but in many of them. There were crimes that took

6 place in many of these places but it is not at all difficult for each

7 individual crime to establish exactly who the perpetrator was and what the

8 motives were. Because not too much time has gone by. Many people are

9 still living both among the victims and the criminals, and everything can

10 be established. Everything can be established both on the Bosnian side

11 and the Croatian side as well. There is no goodwill to do so, to

12 investigate all the crimes. And attempts are being made artificially to

13 strike a balance, including The Hague Tribunal and its indictment with the

14 number of Serbs, Croats, or Muslims brought to trial and charged.

15 Q. Let us now dwell for a moment on what you've said when you said

16 that some crimes were committed in some of these towns. Let's look at

17 that for a moment. What is the link between Serbia, the FRY, the army of

18 Yugoslavia or the police for that matter or any kind, armed forces or

19 formations or units of the Republic of Serbia with any of those crimes

20 that you know of? Are there any links?

21 A. There could not have been any links at all. All the organs of

22 power and authority in Serbia and in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as

23 well, all serious political organisations and political parties of Serbia,

24 the Serbian Orthodox Church, the cultural institutions stemming from the

25 Academy of Science to the Association of Writers, et cetera, et cetera,

Page 43699

1 everybody was against and came out against crimes. They all spoke out

2 against them, and they all supported the just fight of the Serb people for

3 freedom. But all of them at the same time condemned the crimes that were

4 being perpetrated on the Serb side, too, and appealed that no crimes

5 should be committed. And the media were full of statements of that kind

6 via the state organs, the church, the cultural institutions and political

7 parties. There is not a single fact or organisation in Serbia which

8 strove in favour of crimes, and all political, cultural, and other factors

9 spoke out against crimes.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Now, we -- let's look at paragraph 37, which talks about unlawful

13 confinement or imprisonment under inhumane conditions of Bosnian Muslims,

14 Bosnian Croats, and then the following places are enumerated on the

15 territories of Banja Luka, Bihac, Bijeljina, Bileca, Bosanska Krupa, Novi,

16 Samac, Bratunac, Brcko, Cajnice, Doboj, Foca, Gacko, Kljuc, Kalinovik,

17 Kotor Varos and Nevesinje, Prijedor, Rogatica. Sanski Most, Teslic,

18 Visegrad, Vlasenica and Zvornik.

19 Tell us, please, Mr. Seselj, what unlawful confinement of these

20 people in these towns did we take part in?

21 A. The power and authorities in Serbia and Yugoslavia could not have

22 had anything to do with any such thing.

23 First of all, we should differentiate between the following: What

24 the confinement of prisoners of war means and what the confinement of

25 civilians means. It is unlawful to confine civilians. That is what is

Page 43700

1 unlawful, and there were such cases.

2 Now, how can I explain them to the best of my knowledge? First of

3 all, there were individual instances in some of these places through the

4 self-will of people from the local authorities. I mentioned the instance

5 of Simo Drljaca, for example, who was killed when he was being arrested.

6 And then many people bear responsibility through -- without any fault of

7 their own because they couldn't influence him. He appeared as a factor,

8 and there was no control over him. Nobody could control him, and his

9 motives were of a criminal nature.

10 There were other such cases in some of these places whereby

11 somebody confined people unlawfully, members of non-Serb ethnic groups in

12 order to put them up for bribes, I mentioned Mauzer, in order to receive

13 money and then release them once they received money for that. There were

14 also instances of revenge and retaliation where somebody had suffered,

15 somebody's family members had suffered at the hands of the Muslims or

16 Croats, and they wanted to seek revenge. And the authorities very often

17 were not able to prevent revenge of that kind.

18 Q. Which authorities?

19 A. The authorities in Republika Srpska.

20 Q. But what about the authority in Serbia? Could the Serbian

21 authorities intervene?

22 A. No. The authorities in Serbia couldn't influence or involve

23 themselves in any such matters.

24 So as I say, there were cases and instances of that kind, but one

25 should take a look at each of these cases and see what the background to

Page 43701

1 those cases are, hot perpetrators were, how the crime was committed and

2 what the motives were and then the situation will become clearer.

3 Now, what happens here? Here we have an enumeration of places

4 where possibly some crimes had taken place and they are extracted out of

5 context and then an a priori general phrases are used to accuse

6 top-ranking politicians, not only of Republika Srpska but those of Serbian

7 Yugoslavia as well.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Seselj, by this time it is becoming -- it has

9 become a feature of your evidence that in response to the allegations you

10 say that there may have been individual acts of criminality but nothing

11 like the systematic, organised, group acts of criminality that are alleged

12 by the indictment, alleged by the Prosecution.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't understand me correctly,

14 Mr. Robinson. There was -- there were group crimes, group criminality,

15 but there was no systematic, organised criminality on the part of the top

16 echelons of power, to be more precise. So first of all, it is absolutely

17 impossible for the authorities in Serbia to have organised anything like

18 that, and in Yugoslavia either. To the best of my knowledge, it is

19 impossible that the authorities of Republika Srpska had organised any such

20 thing, but there were individuals from those echelons of power who did

21 commit crimes. And it wasn't only individuals who committed crimes.

22 There was group -- there was group criminality, too, group crimes too.

23 And I mentioned several examples that I know about on the basis of my

24 information, but I can't be well-versed in everything, but I can in

25 basics, and therefore I can claim what I just did, what I just said. It

Page 43702

1 wasn't the policy of the authorities of Serbia and Yugoslavia to commit

2 crimes, to persecute Muslims or Croats. It wasn't the policy of the

3 leadership of Republika Srpska either, for that matter.

4 Now, --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: And it wasn't the policy of this accused in

6 concert with other --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That certainly was not the policy of

8 Mr. Milosevic. Quite the contrary. Mr. Milosevic constantly,

9 continuously and openly and resolutely came out publicly against such

10 crimes being committed, against any criminality appearing, especially the

11 most serious form of war crimes.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Paragraph 40 is too long for me to quote. There's an enormous

15 list of towns there from Bosnia-Herzegovina, lots of towns in that list,

16 and the subject here is deportation.

17 Now, Mr. Seselj, help me how here. Let's clarify that. Albeit in

18 Serbia, according to official date, about 70.000 Muslims fled to Serbia,

19 Muslim refugees fled to Serbia during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

20 70.000 of them when they were treated in Serbia awarding to the principle

21 of non-discrimination like anybody else.

22 Now, I can't clear up this point here. Perhaps our leadership is

23 being accused for taking in those refugees who fled from the war, or is it

24 stated here -- it says: "Milosevic, acting alone or together with other

25 members of the joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered,

Page 43703

1 committed, or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation, or

2 execution of the unlawful forcible transfer..."

3 Now, Mr. Seselj, did Milosevic or any other organ of the Republic

4 of Serbia did -- do anything to force anybody to move lawfully or

5 unlawfully? If you have lawful forcible movement, then you have unlawful

6 movement too. So did the -- an organ of Serbia even try to move one

7 individual?

8 A. These organs of Serbia could not have had anything to do with

9 anything like that. Second, the state organs of Serbia condemned these

10 phenomena and similar phenomena if they knew about them. Thirdly, what

11 did happen was that there was the desire on the part of one ethnic group

12 to leave the area they had inhabited by another ethnic group, and that

13 desire was expressed much before the armed conflict broke out. There were

14 instances of that kind throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina. That is to say,

15 that people wanted to move out because they felt something in the air,

16 something afoot. They felt that war might be imminent, bearing in mind

17 what had happened in Croatia, the Croatian federal unit. They wanted to

18 move out. Anybody who had relatives in other parts of Yugoslavia or

19 perhaps abroad, and if they had enough money to do so, they left -- they

20 were the first to leave. So that was something that could be proved, and

21 in some trials before The Hague Tribunal this was proved and established

22 in some of the judgements. And I know of a specific example, a concrete

23 example, a case in point. This is what happened: A group of Muslims from

24 Prijedor wished to move onto the territory under Muslim control, and a

25 convoy was organised to transport them to Travnik, I think it was --

Page 43704

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Seselj, I'm stopping you because you have

2 answered the question. You are becoming a little too expansive.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this would be very

4 important.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Seselj, what example do you know of personally?

7 A. I'm talking about one example when Muslims were transported

8 because they wanted to go to territory that was under Muslim control. And

9 then the policeman who was leading the convoy for security reasons, whose

10 name is Darko Mrdja, he stopped the convoy at a particular site which is

11 called Koricanske Stijene, if I remember correctly. He took out a large

12 group of Muslims and executed them arbitrarily. When he returned, the

13 authorities tried to arrest him. He fled to a completely different part

14 of Republika Srpska, and under a different name he signed up with the army

15 of Republika Srpska in order to avoid arrest.

16 Then he tried to explain this in a completely different way:

17 Somebody ordered him to do so, but he cannot say who it was, so he's

18 trying to shift blame elsewhere and things like that.

19 Such people, when they were prosecuted before The Hague Tribunal,

20 entered plea bargains with the OTP, then they get a mild sentence, and

21 then they appear in other trials, and their statements are believed

22 although they are invariably false because --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm stopping you. Mr. Seselj, no doubt you're a

24 man of many virtues. Is omniscience one of them? How do you happen to

25 know all these things? I have to ask myself that question, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 43705

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is your knowledge coming from?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, all my life I have

4 been learning, learning, learning, and constantly learning. Even now in

5 prison I read eight to ten hours a day, although the conditions under

6 which I live are very poor because they want to prevent me from preparing

7 my defence case properly. But I'm a constant learner, and I wish others

8 were too.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: It would help my appreciation of your evidence if

10 only occasionally we were told of the basis for the information that you

11 have about specific matters.

12 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Seselj, a short while ago you said that the leadership of

15 Serbia and I personally could not have participated in any such thing and

16 that as a matter of fact we acted in a completely opposite manner. Upon

17 what do you base this statement?

18 A. I have a series of sources of information and grounds on which I

19 base my information and statements. First of all, the consistent

20 statements made by the authorities of Serbia and Yugoslavia in that area.

21 Secondly, the concrete behaviour of the authorities of Serbia.

22 They never discriminated in terms of taking in refugees. They never

23 discriminated against any ethnic group. It is impossible for the

24 authorities from Serbia to take part in the persecution of Muslims in

25 Bosnia whereas at the same time they were readily admitting them to Serbia

Page 43706












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Page 43707

1 and treating them the same way they treat Orthodox Serbs and others.

2 So there is not a shred of common sense in this, no logic

3 whatsoever. Why would the authorities of Serbia take part in persecution

4 of Muslims against Bosnia while taking in thousands of Muslim refugees in

5 Serbia and spending a lot of money on them? Refugees require a great deal

6 of money. Perhaps not all of them were happy with what they got, but this

7 involved major expenditure on the part of the state.

8 Q. All right, Mr. Seselj. But did the authorities of Serbia allow

9 discrimination over any Muslim Croat or the member of any other ethnic

10 group in Serbia during the civil war in Croatia and Bosnia?

11 A. No. Even if there were any incidents on ethnic grounds, the

12 authorities acted in accordance with the law and brought such matters to

13 trial. They simply did not allow things like that to happen.

14 Q. Please look at paragraph 42 now. Again it says here: "Slobodan

15 Milosevic," and so on and so forth, on or about the 1st of March, 1992,

16 until 391st of December, 1995, acting alone or in concert with members of

17 the joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed or

18 otherwise aided and abetted the planning preparation or execution of

19 wanton destruction and plunder of the public and private property of the

20 Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat, and other non-Serb populations and then" --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, too fast. Too fast.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So I, Mr. Seselj, according to this paragraph 42, aided and

24 abetted the planning, preparation or execution, I executed this. It

25 wasn't that I only aided and abetted others, but I committed wanton

Page 43708

1 destruction and plunder of the public and private property of the Bosnian

2 Muslim, Bosnian Croat, and other non-Serb populations, and again all these

3 municipalities are listed here where I committed wanton looting of

4 property belonging to Muslims and Croats.

5 Please tell us not only what you know about this but also on the

6 basis of what you know what you know.

7 A. This is sheer nonsense that you took part in any part of this in

8 any way. However, such things did happen, looting and destruction of

9 private and public property. Such things happened equally on all three

10 sides, because in a civil war it is far more difficult to keep everything

11 under control as compared to a war waged against an external enemy.

12 What happened here was that a group of Serbs, Croats, or Muslims

13 would loot houses, destroy property, et cetera -- or, rather, would have

14 their own property looted, and then they would seek property in a similar

15 way in other places. This is something that was part of this war, and no

16 official authorities from Serbia could have done anything about that. No

17 one personally took part in this or aided, abetted, planned, executed,

18 et cetera.

19 There were paramilitary formations that had looting as their

20 primary motive. The Yellow Wasps did not only steal from Muslims but also

21 from Serbs. They would stop an entire Serb family on a road. People

22 travelling from Republika Srpska to Serbia, for instance, they would seize

23 their car, they would seize what was in the car, et cetera. There were

24 such cases as documented by the police of Republika Srpska, and this Trial

25 Chamber can obtain information to that effect. So there were cases of

Page 43709

1 looting, but spontaneously in a civil war which was waged in conditions

2 that were rather chaotic.

3 There was no organised looting and destruction by any authorities.

4 Not only the authorities of Serbia but also the authorities of Republika

5 Srpska or, rather, the top authorities of Republika Srpska.

6 Q. In paragraph 43 it says that I, in concert with others, engaged in

7 a military campaign of artillery and mortar shelling and sniping onto

8 civilian areas of Sarajevo and upon its civilian population, killing and

9 wounding thousands of civilians of all ages and both sexes.

10 You were in Sarajevo, as opposed to myself, so could you please

11 explain whether the authorities of Republika Srpska and, in particular,

12 tell us what the authorities of Yugoslavia or Serbia or any organs of

13 Yugoslavia and Serbia had to do with this.

14 A. In the trial of General Galic, in the judgement there was a

15 dissenting opinion by Judge Navia. In view of the length of the conflict

16 in Sarajevo, it was -- there were far less civilian casualties in terms of

17 the duration of the war around Sarajevo than would have been the case

18 elsewhere in the world. Civilians were being killed in Sarajevo, but on

19 both sides when all this shelling was done. But there were far less

20 casualties than would be expected elsewhere in the world, and that is what

21 Judge Navia said in his dissenting opinion in the Galic judgement that I

22 read.

23 I was in Sarajevo several times during the war. I witnessed the

24 killing of Serb civilians, Serb children. Sometimes they were targeted

25 intentionally and sometimes these killings were accidental. But often the

Page 43710

1 Muslims from their side killed their own civilians in order to present

2 this in the media as Serb barbarism. That was the Markale Marketplace,

3 Vasa Miskin Street and a few other instances. Nobody in Serbia did not

4 take part in the war operations around Sarajevo in any way. No official

5 factors from Serbia, that is.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did take part. On the transcript it's a double

7 negative.

8 Yes, Mr. --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a double negative in the

10 Serbian language and it does not change the meaning of the statement. In

11 English it might mean something different. I'm sorry I don't know English

12 and I cannot really adjust to this.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Seselj, Witness B024 says, and would you please confirm or

15 deny this -- well, he says that he has no information that the JNA took

16 part in the attacks on Zvornik. He said that on page 21201. Can you

17 confirm that?

18 A. Well, the JNA did not attack Zvornik.

19 Q. All right. Thank you.

20 A. In Zvornik the JNA clashed with Muslim paramilitary forces. The

21 Muslim paramilitary forces attacked Zvornik while the JNA took part in the

22 liberation of Zvornik from Muslim paramilitary units.

23 Q. Do you know anything about what (redacted) said in his

24 witness statement? That is on transcript page 20414. That many Serbs,

25 including women and children, left Zvornik in April 1992.

Page 43711

1 A. Well, when there is a war in an urban area, in a town, it is only

2 logical that civilians, primarily women, children, and the elderly flee

3 from war. They're fleeing from gunfire that comes from both sides.

4 Very often in this war and in any other war civilians would get

5 killed by stray bullets. So indeed Serb families were fleeing, too, from

6 the conflict.

7 Q. All right. Well, as opposed to the Muslims who were expelled, the

8 Serbs were leaving of their own free will. Is that the way it's supposed

9 to seem?

10 A. Regrettably that is the way the Western forces always portray

11 this, that Serbs are genetic criminals and everybody else are their

12 victims. Even those who cause the war are victims of Serb violence. We

13 are faced with an unscrupulous campaign of the Western powers that is

14 based and anti-Serb grounds.

15 Q. How can you explain this that for all these towns where killings

16 happened, lootings, torchings, movement of the population, et cetera, all

17 of that can be found here in this indictment that I've been quoting to

18 you, the entire civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in Croatia.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is not an explanation for the witness to

20 give. Ask another question.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I am putting a

22 question to you precisely because -- to him, rather, because I think that

23 he can give an answer. He's a politician, an intellectual, a university

24 professor, quite aware of the situation, very familiar with the situation,

25 and he is in a position to give an answer to this question.

Page 43712

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: And I've already ruled that he is not to answer

2 it. So proceed.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. This same witness, (redacted), said that members of the

6 JNA in Zvornik guarded the bridges between the two sides. Do you know

7 about that? This is on transcript page 20408.

8 A. First of all, between the two sides there were no bridges. The

9 two sides clashed within Zvornik itself. The army tried to keep the

10 bridges under its own control and even more importantly the hydroelectric

11 power plant, so that Muslim paramilitary formation would not try to

12 destroy the hydroelectric power plant. In Zvornik there is an old

13 hydroelectric power plant and also an artificial lake. The JNA fought the

14 paramilitaries from the Muslim side within the town of Zvornik. The

15 conflict ended quickly, within a day or two. I can't say exactly, I

16 wasn't there, but the Serb Radical Party had its volunteers there. And

17 then also the conflict was moved to the old Zvornik fort.

18 Q. The same witness said that members of the paramilitary units

19 committed crimes in Zvornik.

20 A. I cannot confirm or deny this. There were some operations there

21 that can be ascribed to paramilitary formations. Crimes did occur, but

22 who it was that committed them and where I cannot say. Just like they are

23 ascribing these crimes to you, they are ascribing them to me and to

24 Karadzic, but all of this unfounded, without a shred of evidence.

25 In Belgrade there is a trial that is under way against a group of

Page 43713

1 people for crimes committed in the area of Zvornik.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Next question.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do you know anything about taking non-Serbs prisoner and torturing

5 them, that is to say, people from Zvornik, from April to July 1992? They

6 are mentioned in different statements and in different documents provided

7 by Mr. Nice. The factory of standard, the bricklaying factory, Ekonomija,

8 Drinjaca, Celopek. These are localities that are mentioned. Have you

9 heard anything about this and what do you know about it?

10 A. To my knowledge there were crimes in Zvornik. However, to my

11 knowledge the crimes were not committed while the JNA was operating but

12 once the fighting was over. Everyone of these crimes can be solved very

13 simply, who the victims were and who the executors were.

14 Q. Do you have any particular knowledge, for example about the

15 cultural centre in Drinjaca where, according to Witness B1455, many

16 persons were taken prisoner and there were different parapolice force

17 there is? Do you have any information about this? If not, I'll just go

18 on.

19 A. I cannot give you the names of the exact places where crimes were

20 committed. There were crimes, to my knowledge, but it wasn't the JNA that

21 took part in it and the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party did not take

22 part in these crimes. Who participated in this should be fully

23 investigated. The protagonists are still alive and many immediate victims

24 are still alive, and they can testify about this. The question is whether

25 there was enough will to investigate this matter, and I've already

Page 43714

1 referred to the trial that is underway in Belgrade and I personally expect

2 a great deal from that.

3 Q. What about the cultural centre in Drinjaca?

4 A. No, I don't know anything about it. I wasn't there.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Seselj and Mr. Milosevic, you are not

6 observing the pause between question and answer, and you are thereby

7 creating difficulties for the interpreter.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, this is the first time

9 you have warned us about this today. As you see, Mr. Seselj and I are

10 bearing this in mind.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're practising.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness B1780 mentioned on page 28220 that during his imprisonment

14 in this Ekonomija farm, among the people there there were members of your

15 units. To be sure, he also mentions the White Eagles and Arkan's men. Do

16 you have any knowledge of this and is it possible that members of your

17 units were there? You've already explained you didn't have any units of

18 yours, but is it possible that members of the JNA who were your volunteers

19 were there?

20 A. I'm not aware that the White Eagles were active in the Zvornik

21 area. I know that Arkan's Tigers were active there but to what extent and

22 in what locations I couldn't say because I wasn't there.

23 All the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party were in the JNA. I

24 do not doubt that this witness experienced all the sufferings and

25 misfortunes he talked about, but evidently he's very confused when

Page 43715

1 identifying the people who caused his sufferings. He's mixing up Seselj's

2 men, the White Eagles, Arkan's men, and this shows that he's very confused

3 and unable to identify the perpetrators. I had said that the volunteers

4 of the Serb Radical Party did not participate in this, according to

5 everything I know, and my knowledge is very good. I might even say very

6 often it's beyond any doubt, impeccable, and it shouldn't be easy to

7 establish who actually perpetrated this.

8 Q. He says that some of your men first tortured and then killed a

9 certain Bego Bukvic in his presence, and this is on page 28221 of the

10 transcript. Do you know anything about this?

11 A. I know of no instance where volunteers of the Serb Radical Party

12 committed any crimes in that place.

13 Q. Well, do you have to know if they were volunteers of the Serb

14 Radical Party?

15 A. Yes. Because the people who on behalf of the Serb Radical Party

16 sent volunteers to the JNA would have forwarded this information to me ,

17 and as the competent command of the JNA would certainly have informed me

18 had any of my volunteers done anything illegal. I'm sure of it.

19 Q. Would other volunteers have reported this?

20 A. Yes. They would have felt personally offended by such acts, and

21 they would have asked for measures to be taken against such a volunteer,

22 because this would have inflicted huge moral damage to them.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you receive on a regular basis reports about

24 the conducts of the volunteers?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't say the reports were

Page 43716

1 regular, but they were exhaustive. I personally took steps to find out

2 how the fighting was proceeding and how the volunteers were behaving. All

3 the problems that I received reports about concerned less severe acts of

4 indiscipline, usually drunkenness. And we would ask for such volunteers

5 to be removed from the units so that they would not upset the discipline

6 of the other men.

7 I was not informed of any serious crimes, and therefore I draw the

8 conclusion that none occurred.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Were these reports in writing?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They were usually just oral

11 conversations.

12 I'm convinced that had serious crimes been committed, written

13 reports would have been sent to me. I'm sure that the competent command

14 would have told me had something like this happened.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Seselj, if you can't recall it doesn't matter, but is it true

18 that in the indictment against you it says that around the 12th of May,

19 1992, Serbian forces, as it says there, including the leader of a group of

20 Seselj's men beat up and killed a man called Dautovic? Is this correct?

21 A. Well, when they say a leader of a group of Seselj's men, then

22 should be easy to establish his first and last name and then I could tell

23 you whether such a man existed or not. It says here the leader of a group

24 of Seselj's men but no mention is made of the name. How do they know he's

25 the leader if they don't know his name? What does the term "leader" mean?

Page 43717

1 Was he a squad leader, a company leader? I have stressed several times

2 that volunteers of the Serb Radical Party were never grouped together in

3 units larger than a company.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, where is that reference?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked Mr. Seselj this because I

6 have a note that this is mentioned in the indictment against him. So I

7 wanted to ask him whether he recalls such an event as mentioned in the

8 indictment against him, because previously he answered that he knew of no

9 such instances, no crimes committed by volunteers of the Serb Radical

10 Party.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. As you have answered with precision that there were no such

14 instances, I will not put any more questions to you about the various

15 allegations referring to the Zvornik area. It would simply be a waste of

16 time.

17 Please tell us very briefly whether you have any knowledge about

18 the events in Bosanski Samac in 1992, because it says that your men

19 participated in taking Bosanski Samac in April 1992.

20 A. First of all --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is that reference?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I quoted about half an hour ago, but

23 it wasn't sufficiently clear. I will try to find it again. I'm simply

24 trying to establish whether the witness knows anything about

25 Bosanski Samac.

Page 43718












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 43719

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have some knowledge but --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: The answer -- the question I have is -- what do

3 you mean by "because it says," it says, "that your men participated in

4 taking Bosanski Samac in April 1992." What is "it"?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked Mr. Seselj something about

6 Samac before, but right now I can't find it.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it it's not another reference to the

8 indictment against Mr. Seselj.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think it is.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have Bosanski Samac mentioned in

11 several places on your indictment, if I can be of assistance, and I can

12 tell you what I know about the events in Bosanski Samac.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Well, that's the only reason I asked you whether you knew

15 anything.

16 A. In paragraph 42 Bosanski Samac is ascribed to you.

17 Q. Well, all the municipalities in Bosnia and Herzegovina are

18 ascribed to me. There aren't any which are not ascribed to me. But what

19 do you know about the events there?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, I don't understand this question. You

21 can't just ask a question, take a municipality and say, "What do you know

22 about events there?" There's got to be some point to the question.

23 Now, what is this dealing with?

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Very well. I won't ask you anything about that, then, because I

Page 43720

1 can't find the reference now.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Milosevic. If you find the

3 reference, you can come back to it, but bear in mind that you undertook to

4 complete the evidence in chief today.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm doing my best, Mr. Robinson, but

6 there are many, many witnesses who mentioned Mr. Seselj, and I want to see

7 whether there's any truth in anything they said.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you may -- Mr. Milosevic, you may have

9 other witnesses who may be in a better position to contradict the

10 assertions in the Prosecution case than Mr. Seselj himself. Don't assume

11 that because a Prosecution says something about Mr. Seselj that he's the

12 best person to contradict it.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So do many witnesses.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. On page 23520 of the transcript. I'll skip over the witness's

16 name because I can't recall at present whether or not he was protected,

17 Mr. Robinson. I don't think he was, because I don't have any note to that

18 effect, but he says: "In actions in Bosanski Samac, the Red Berets, the

19 White Wolves, and the JNA participated."

20 Do you know anything about this?

21 A. I have rather reliable information about that. First of all,

22 there was a man whom I know as a volunteer of the Serb Radical Party from

23 Eastern Slavonia and who is mentioned in several places, both in the

24 indictment against me and the judgement against the Samac group and so on.

25 His name is Srecko Radovanovic. He probably arrived there in a JNA

Page 43721

1 helicopter, which would mean he was part of the JNA. However, he was

2 accompanied by a group of men who were not volunteers of the Serb Radical

3 Party, a certain man called Crni who was later a commander. I know for

4 sure he was not a member of the Serb Radical Party. There was also

5 Slobodan Miljkovic, also known as Lugar, who had a fighting group known as

6 the Grey Wolves, not the White Wolves, as far as I know. This Lugar was

7 charged with several crimes, and he was tried before the court in

8 Banja Luka. At that time he was not a volunteer of the Serb Radical

9 Party. In 1993 or 1994, he join the Serb Radical Party in Kragujevac and

10 the party still has the original copy of his enrollment document.

11 Q. Was that in Serbia? Because the Judges don't know that Kragujevac

12 is not in Bosnia.

13 A. That's correct. And he joined in 1993 or 1994. I'm getting ready

14 to obtain the original copy of his application to join, but he was

15 expelled in 1995 for slapping the president of the Municipal Board, Jovan

16 Savic. And he was in the Grey Wolves unit. He had nothing to do with the

17 Serb Radical Party. He was tried before a court in Banja Luka, and I gave

18 my legal advisors instructions to get the entire transcript of this trial

19 and all the accompanying materials.

20 As for Srecko Radovanovic, The Hague Prosecution has disclosed to

21 me certain documents which are public, and you can see that this man

22 Radovanovic entered into various private arrangements concerning his

23 participation in the war. He was promised remuneration or received it.

24 Those are the facts I know about. There was the JNA. The members

25 of the JNA arrived in JNA helicopters. Among them was a man who I know

Page 43722

1 had previously been a volunteer of the Serb Radical Party, and they even

2 called him Chetnik duke, conferred upon him this title. His name was

3 Srecko Radovanovic.

4 There was Crni who was holding a command position, and he was

5 certainly not a volunteer. And Miljkovic, also known as Lugar, was

6 certainly not a volunteer of the Serb Radical Party, because had he been

7 he would not have about in the Grey Wolves. As far as I can recall, that

8 unit was called the Grey Wolves.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now let me try and tell you what I've understood

10 from that answer, if anything, that the JNA did participation in actions

11 in Bosanski Samac. Is that a fair understanding of what you've said?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, the JNA was there,

13 yes.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: And that there was also a paramilitary group called

15 the Grey Wolves active there?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's very problematic to say

17 paramilitary unit, because when one says paramilitary unit one means

18 outside the regular army. This group was part of the Samac Territorial

19 Defence in some way, or part of the army of Republika Srpska. I'm not

20 sure how, in what way. But this Slobodan Miljkovic, also known as Lugar,

21 I think for a way was deputy battalion commander, and he was a very good

22 fighter. He distinguished himself in the fighting. However, what

23 happened happened outside the battle. I think the village was called

24 Crkvina or something like that. I can't recall it all off the top of my

25 head, especially place names. But he was tried before the court in

Page 43723

1 Banja Luka, he and this group called the Grey Wolves.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And the Red Berets you haven't dealt with. Did

3 they participate?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How can I respond to that? What

5 Red Berets? Were they soldiers wearing Red Berets on their heads?

6 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a perfectly legitimate answer for you to

7 give, you see, because the question was in actions in Bosanski Samac the

8 Red Berets, the White Wolves and the JNA participated. That was the

9 quotation. And you gave us a long answer about Serb Radical volunteers,

10 which on the face of it, and as far as I can still tell, they've got

11 nothing to do with the question. So all I'm doing now is trying to find

12 out what the real answer to that question is.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it has nothing to do with the

15 Red Berets.

16 --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The reason for the late start is that the

19 technical person needed more time to make the redaction that was necessary

20 resulting from the inadvertent reference to the name of a protected

21 witness.

22 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You commented on the White Wolves or as you called them the Grey

Page 43724

1 Wolves and the Red Berets that were mentioned, that Mr. Bonomy also

2 mentioned. Now, the witness, I don't know whether he was protected or

3 not, I don't want to say his name, but anyway, on page 23520 of the

4 transcript says that he saw 20 locals, and it's about Samac, wearing

5 uniforms with Red Berets for which -- for whom he assumed -- he assumed

6 they were locals who were trained in the Red Beret camp so they returned

7 to Samac. Do you know anything about that?

8 A. Well, I don't have any information to that effect, and that is

9 quite impossible. I'd like to point out once again that in different

10 places they called people Red Berets for the simple fact that they had

11 found some Red Berets and put them on their heads. So they could have

12 been various units, especially as we're talking about locals in this

13 particular case. Where were they going? Where were they trained? What

14 does it all mean? They might have received some Red Berets from some

15 warehouse and would display them in Samac and then people thought they

16 were some sort of Red Beret formation and wanted to link them up with the

17 Red Berets that were established in Serbia as a Special Purpose Unit of

18 the State Security in 1996.

19 So quite obviously there is the intent to mislead and this term

20 applies to different concepts.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Seselj. Now, is it correct that in March, and I

22 think that is in the indictment against you but you'll put me right if I'm

23 wrong, in March 1992 that you held a speech in Mali Zvornik, is that true,

24 that is to say, on the territory of Serbia, the other side of Drina River,

25 wherein amongst others you said: "Dear brother Chetniks, especially you

Page 43725

1 across the Drina, you're the bravest, and we're going to clear up Bosnia

2 from the pagans and show them the road to the east where they belong." Is

3 it true that you said that?

4 A. This is partially a falsification of my actual statement and

5 partially it is a mistake made on the part of the Croatian translator,

6 because -- or interpreter, because Croatian translators don't always know

7 the Serbian language well enough, because they endeavour to speak an

8 artificial form of the distorted form of the Serbian language which the

9 Croats have been using for the last hundred years. So in that Croatian

10 variation "pogan" means "pagan," where as in the Serb language "pogan"

11 means "waste" or "faeces." And I attacked the Islamic fundamentalists and

12 pan-Islamists who wish to have Bosnia secede from Yugoslavia, and I called

13 them "pogani," which means faeces or waste. But I did not refer to the

14 Muslims as pagans. I am not -- I am an educated man. I'm not a stupid

15 man. For me to call a monotheistic religion a pagan religion, now, I have

16 nothing against the pagan traditions, and I look up to ancient Greece more

17 than I do to all the Christians afterwards, let's make that point clear,

18 but I know that it is a monotheistic religion and one of the largest --

19 greatest Serbian theologists Nikolaj Velimirevic, considered the Muslims

20 to be a Protestant variant of a Christianism, Christianity.

21 So here because of inadequate translations, a monstrous assertion

22 is being made, far from any thoughts of mine. What I did was to attack,

23 and I've been doing so for more than 20 years or 30 years, pan-Islamists,

24 Islamic fundamentalists, and I started attacking them first when they

25 first appeared in Bosnia-Herzegovina for that matter.

Page 43726

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is a copy of this speech available?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where you can find it. Well, if you

4 haven't got if it in my books then the Prosecution probably has a copy

5 because most of my speeches were published in my books, in my works so, if

6 a speech does not happen to be there, if --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Was this one published in your books? I apologise.

8 I haven't read them all.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson [sic], two years ago I

10 handed over to The Hague Tribunal 80 of my printed works.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this speech in any of them?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most probably, but it would be up to

13 the Prosecution to find it, not me. I can't look through that whole

14 matter myself, because I didn't make the statement only in one place. I

15 made the statement in several places, on several occasions.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, normally the party presenting the evidence is

17 responsible for getting it to court in some -- as official as is possible,

18 but you're not aware of a copy of it being available for us as part of the

19 papers in connection with your evidence.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, the side that has

21 referred to my alleged speech is the Prosecution's side. So I'm just

22 telling you where they made a mistake. So they can find the original of

23 the speech and present it here. I can't do the work of the Prosecution.

24 I can't be expected to do that. I am testifying to the facts and

25 circumstances about which I have knowledge. I'm not here to help the

Page 43727

1 Prosecution out in its work. And for my part, I have contributed

2 sufficiently by handing over all my books. They have far greater

3 resources than I do.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, can you help? Where do I locate the

5 evidence, readily locate the evidence in relation to this?

6 MR. NICE: I'm not sure you can locate it readily at the moment

7 from our own database. It may be possible.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: It appears Mr. Seselj is suggesting that there is

9 evidence of this speech led by the Prosecution in this case.

10 MR. NICE: It may be in this case or it may be in the pre-trial

11 brief of his own case. I'll deal with it as soon as I can.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

13 MR. NICE: We can't of course be guided in the way we are going to

14 present our questions through his observations. We'll make our own

15 decisions.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. That's nothing to the point. I'm just

17 trying to clarify where I can read this speech, but if no one's going to

18 help me, that's okay.

19 MR. NICE: We certainly will help you when we can.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness B1643 who testified pursuant to 92 bis, I assume you know

23 the written part, mentioned torture and capture of civilians in the SUP

24 building of the Territorial Defence in the primary school and secondary

25 school in Crkvina, the warehouse there. Do you know anything about that?

Page 43728

1 A. Well, I already mentioned something about this. I said that the

2 Crkvina case was probably processed in Banja Luka, which is where the Grey

3 Wolves were investigated. Slobodan Miljkovic, nicknamed Lugar, was

4 arrested, but I don't have any details about how the trial proceeded and

5 the upshot. I asked my legal advisors to find the complete dossier of

6 that trial, but I do know for certain that he was arrested and taken to

7 trial in Banja Luka, prosecuted in Banja Luka.

8 Q. The indictment against you, in the indictment you are accused of

9 an act on the 7th of May, 1992, which allegedly happened there which says

10 that two leaders of your group under your command killed 18 males at the

11 agricultural farm in Crkvina. Is that the event you are referring to?

12 A. Well, I assume so, although I was not in command. I wasn't there

13 nor did the Grey Wolves have anything to do with the Serbian Radical

14 Party.

15 Q. That's all I want to the hear from you, Mr. Seselj. I think your

16 answer suffices.

17 You are also charged of an event on the 5th of July, 1992, when

18 allegedly members of units under your control, once again it is stated

19 killed 22 civilians in Jesovo [phoen]. Do you know anything about that?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you now seem to be concentrating

21 on the indictment against Mr. Seselj. To what end?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Seselj, Mr. Robinson, was

23 quoted as being one of the participants of the joint criminal enterprise.

24 So it is up to us to assess how far there are grounds for posing this

25 question of a joint criminal enterprise and for attempting to prove that

Page 43729

1 concept here, and Mr. Seselj has an opportunity of telling us why he

2 stands accused, because he's testifying here.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The indictment against him is not necessarily

4 relevant for that purpose.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Whatever you like. I'm not going to

6 insist upon that, although I do consider it to be relevant.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You are also being accused of the fact that during the summer 1993

9 some members of your alleged --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... you have

11 continued. I want you to stop that line of questioning, because I do not

12 see at the moment its relevance. It is not Mr. Seselj who is on trial

13 here. I know that he's alleged to be a member of the joint criminal

14 enterprise. I'm well aware of that. But that doesn't let in any and all

15 kind of allegations from the indictment relating to his trial.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Robinson, if we can see

17 here that the allegations against Mr. Seselj are not correct and not true,

18 then that, once again, is proof and evidence that other things aren't true

19 either, and he has refuted a number of witnesses' statements here that I

20 quoted.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a non sequitur, Mr. Milosevic, and I know

22 you know that.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Seselj, witness William Thomas Francis Roy on page 28882 of

Page 43730












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13 English transcripts.













Page 43731

1 the transcript stated here that the Muslim snipers killed three pregnant

2 women and only then did the Serb snipers respond by opening fire. Do you

3 know anything about that event or generally speaking about events linked

4 to killings by snipers in the Sarajevo area?

5 A. As far as I remember, that was the first instance of sniper fire

6 in Sarajevo, and we must bear in mind the fact that in Sarajevo the front

7 line stretched across the city itself. The city was divided into a part

8 under Muslim control and another part under Serb control.

9 Now, as far as sniper fire is concerned, one should bear in mind

10 the following: When you say sniper fire, you implied any fire coming from

11 rifles which wasn't a sniper fire in the true sense of the word because

12 sniper fire is firing at a long distance, long range, with weapons with

13 optic sights. However, that -- those kinds of weapons were rare on the

14 Serb side. The Muslims, with the help of foreign powers, were able to

15 come by much more sophisticated weapons, modern weapons, on the black

16 market. I don't exclude the possibility of individual cases there being

17 the need for revenge and retaliation, but fire from Serb positions was

18 opened at army targets in Sarajevo because a war was being fought to gain

19 control of the city, and the balance of forces was fairly equal. The two

20 sides were fairly equal. The front in Sarajevo, the distance, didn't

21 change for many years, and one or the other side would take control of

22 certain sections, but there was death on both sides of the front line.

23 On the Serb side of the front line there was no intentional

24 killing of Muslim civilians under their control, whereas the Muslims

25 killed about 4.000 Serb civilians near the cemetery and in other places,

Page 43732

1 in Kazani and so on.

2 Q. Thank you. That same witness on the same page says that in the

3 Sarajevo area both sides used snipers and that criminal acts were present

4 on both sides. Is that true?

5 A. As far as crimes are concerned, criminal acts, I think that in

6 Sarajevo there were the least number of criminal acts of this kind. The

7 real snipers were -- real snipers were mostly used on the Muslim side, far

8 more than on the Serb side, because as I said, the Muslims had more

9 sophisticated and modern sniper weapons, whereas the Serbs had a more

10 favourable geographic position for the deployment of their forces.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, I've forgotten the evidence which I

12 think there was earlier about your personal contact with Sarajevo. How

13 much personal experience did you have of Sarajevo? By that I mean the

14 conflict there.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to Sarajevo several times, to

16 the Serb part of Sarajevo, the part of Sarajevo under Serb control that

17 is. Most frequently I would go to Grbavica and tour the front line there.

18 At Grbavica there were a considerable number of Muslims living there, and

19 I met some of them as well. On one occasion I was there when a fresh

20 shipment of bread arrived, for example. And I also met some of my

21 colleagues from university and also people whom I'd been to school with,

22 Muslims. And nobody complained about the conduct of the Serb forces.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Were you there when there were exchanges of fire

24 going on?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, while I was there, during my

Page 43733

1 stay there, there was individual sporadic gunfire. There was some

2 dangerous spots where you had to pass by quickly in your car and where you

3 had to rush past because of sniper fire, the danger of sniper fire, but

4 there were no more serious conflicts at that time.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did you hear about the event of the 19th of October, 1993,

8 referred to by this same witness, Thomas Francis Roy, in his testimony on

9 page 28884 of the transcript when the Bosnian Muslims dressed as Serbs

10 fired at the command of the United Nations for Bosnia-Herzegovina in

11 Sarajevo?

12 A. Yes. That was a generally known event, and the Muslims would open

13 fire frequently and fire at international forces so that that could be

14 ascribed to the Serbs, saying the Serbs had fired. And then they abused

15 protected facilities in order to open fire, and this would bring reaction

16 from the Serb side. And very often from the main hospital in Sarajevo

17 they would bring in mortars and other weapons. They would open fire at

18 Serb positions, and then they would collect up the weapons, drive them off

19 in the boots of cars, and if the Serbs were to retaliate and open fire,

20 then they would show the Serbs intention naturally aiming at

21 hospitals. And there are a number of foreigners who testified to this,

22 who were eyewitnesses, who saw the Muslims bringing in mortars to the

23 hospital compound and open fire on the Serb positions then withdraw

24 quickly, take away the mortars, and once the foreign controllers arrived

25 they didn't come across any Muslim weapons but they saw the Serbs opening

Page 43734

1 fire in retaliation.

2 Q. Witness Alija Gusalic in his testimony states that you visited

3 Bijeljina before the conflict broke out, and that is to be found on 8 --

4 page 8258 of Alija Gusalic's -- 18258, and I link this up with your

5 indictment and Alija Gusalic's testimony saying that you visited Bijeljina

6 and members of the Serbian Radical Party to plan the attack and to

7 takeover the Bijeljina. May we have your comments to those assertions?

8 A. That I visited Bijeljina several times before the war is quite

9 correct. However, that I planned any kind of attack, that is just

10 nonsense.

11 Q. Witness Alija Gusalic says that in the area of Bijeljina there

12 were Arkan's men and Seselj's men based in Amajlije. Do you know anything

13 about that?

14 A. I categorically assert that not a single volunteer of the Serb

15 Radical Party from Serbia was sent to Bijeljina. I'm absolutely certain

16 of that.

17 Q. The same witness says on page 18260, "Seselj's men had beards and

18 cockades. Seselj was the boss and he instructed Mirko Blagojevic to

19 distribute weapons to people from the Serb Radical Party."

20 A. First of all, I was no boss. Secondly, the volunteers of the Serb

21 Radical Party from time to time did have beards, but they were mostly

22 clean-shaven like me. I never wore a beard in my life. And that does not

23 bring into question my affiliation with the Chetniks, and a beard cannot

24 be synonymous with Chetniks. It was so in communist movies that for

25 ideological reasons portrayed Chetniks that way, but quite simply that was

Page 43735

1 not a customary thing. There were such examples. Why not? A soldier

2 having a beard is no exception in the world. Secondly, I did not

3 distribute any weapons, or did I hand them out, or did I have any role

4 in these struggles in Bijeljina at the beginning of the war.

5 Members of the Serb Radical Party did participate in Bijeljina but

6 exclusively people who lived in Bijeljina anyway.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Seselj. On page 18277, Alija Gusalic says, and now

8 I'm asking you whether you know anything about this, that persons who were

9 not Serbs were detained between April and September 1993, and they were

10 held at the MUP building and at the Batkovic camp near Bijeljina. Do you

11 know anything about that?

12 A. I don't know about those particular localities, but I've already

13 talked about Mauzer's and Arkan's conduct in Bijeljina, and it was for

14 that reason that the local members of the Serb Radical Party often

15 attacked Mauzer in public and opposed him.

16 Q. I'm sorry that I didn't draw your attention to this on time,

17 Mr. Seselj, but I put this question to you because in the indictment you

18 are being charged with the death of about 100 detainees at this camp in

19 Batkovic.

20 A. I've already said that there were no volunteers of the Serb

21 Radical Party there.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question is not relevant.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, Alija Gusalic

24 testified here, and he made those assertions here, and I'm linking that up

25 with --

Page 43736

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Put it on the basis that a Prosecution witness

2 made the allegations here.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I already have. The Batkovic camp

4 near Bijeljina. And I've linked that up to what the indictment against

5 Mr. Seselj says.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but that's not relevant. Move on.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying that Alija Gusalic accused

9 Mr. Seselj in this case, the present case, of causing the death of a

10 hundred detainees in the camp at Batkovic?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Unless he did it in this case, it's not relevant to

13 this case.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. But Mr. Nice did that on the

15 basis of that same assertion, because Gusalic here in this case talks

16 about Batkovic and about people being detained there, whereas in

17 Mr. Seselj's indictment it says that 100 persons died due to inhumane

18 treatment. If that is not linked up well and fine, but why is it in

19 Seselj's indictment?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed to another question, Mr. Milosevic.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Seselj, Alija Gusalic on page 18278 confirmed that the

23 International Red Cross visited the Batkovic camp. Do you know anything

24 about this? Was this camp supervised by the International Red Cross?

25 A. I don't know anything about the visit of the International Red

Page 43737

1 Cross. At any rate, volunteers of the Serb Radical Party were not there.

2 Also, local Serb radicals never took part in arrests or the detention of

3 prisoners of war or civilians or anyone else. They absolutely did not

4 take part in any such thing.

5 As for the International Red Cross, if they did visit Batkovic and

6 if there was any such thing like the camp of Batkovic, then there would

7 have to be a report, a report in writing compiled by them.

8 Q. All right. I'm not going to ask you about this anymore. You

9 mentioned that some of your volunteers were within the JNA in Mostar. Is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Witness K2, in his testimony, mentioned some things about the

13 activity of the Red Berets in Mostar. Since you are familiar with the

14 situation in Mostar and the presence of your volunteers in the JNA there,

15 do you know anything about any activity of the Red Berets there?

16 A. To my knowledge, in Mostar on the Serb side there were no

17 paramilitary formations. Volunteers of the Serb Radical Party were in

18 Mostar. The JNA brought them there in their own vehicles from Belgrade,

19 from the barracks in Bubanj Potok. All the members of the Serb Radical

20 Party were under the control of Momcilo Perisic, who publicly praised them

21 as highly disciplined on Belgrade television.

22 If there were some soldiers wearing Red Berets, they could have

23 been members of some platoon of the military police, an intervention

24 platoon, a reconnaissance platoon, something like that. So I do not

25 preclude the possibility of some JNA soldiers wearing Red Berets, but this

Page 43738

1 was not a formation, a unit called the Red Berets.

2 Q. Witness C17 says in his witness statement that at the Buna camp

3 there were Seselj's Chetniks, the White Eagles and the Red Berets;

4 transcript page 22016. Do you have any knowledge about that?

5 A. That is absolutely impossible. I've never heard of the White

6 Eagles being in the territory of Mostar. I haven't heard of this Buna

7 camp either. It is not impossible that volunteers of the Serb Radical

8 Party, in accordance with orders issued by the command in charge, appeared

9 in Buna. I don't know anything about this, but there should be proper

10 records to that effect in JNA archives, but I never heard of the White

11 Eagles appearing in the territory of Mostar or have I heard of any

12 Red Berets.

13 Q. Witness K2 says on page 14578 that there were activities in

14 Nevesinje. Do you know anything about that?

15 A. I was in Nevesinje but there was actually no fighting there. I

16 was in Nevesinje in 1991. The fighting was in the territory of Mostar and

17 in the Neretva valley.

18 Q. Was there any fighting in Nevesinje at any time during the war?

19 A. As far as I know, there was no fighting during the war in

20 Nevesinje.

21 Q. That will do.

22 A. When I was there in 1992, in Nevesinje, there was a considerable

23 number of Muslims as part of the local population. There were no

24 conflicts. Everything was peaceful. Truth to tell, there was a large

25 number of refugees, Serb refugees, from the Neretva River valley, and they

Page 43739

1 were put up at various facilities there.

2 Q. Do you know anything about a lake, Boracko Jezero, and a rest

3 house there where about 19 persons were killed, according to the

4 allegations made?

5 A. I never knew anything about this. And to my knowledge, volunteers

6 of the Serb Radical Party were not to Boracko Jezero. That's close to

7 Konjic. I've already said that there were members of the Serb guard

8 there. Also, a Major Boro Antelj, a close associate of Vuk Draskovic was

9 there, and we kept our distance from those areas where the Serb guard was

10 operating.

11 Q. Did that Serb guard have anything to do with Arkan's Serb

12 volunteer guard?

13 A. No. These are two different paramilitary formations.

14 Q. So what formation is this, the Serb guard?

15 A. Of Vuk Draskovic and the Serbian Renewal Movement. It appeared

16 elsewhere in Herzegovina, too, like Trebinje. So the civilian authorities

17 had a great deal of trouble with them driving them out of Trebinje because

18 they stayed at the hotel and went out of Trebinje, went looting. Then

19 they appeared in Foca, caused problems there, and the authorities had a

20 lot of trouble getting rid of these guardsmen of Draskovic's. As far as I

21 know, the Serb guard operated in those three places in Herzegovina.

22 Q. Mr. Seselj --

23 A. In Trebinje and in Foca when they appeared there, Branislav

24 Lajnovic, Dugi, was their commander.

25 Q. You mean the commander of this paramilitary formation?

Page 43740

1 A. The Serb guard.

2 Q. Of Vuk Draskovic?

3 A. Yes. Otherwise a notorious criminal, a top-notch criminal from

4 Novi Sad, almost equal to Arkan.

5 Q. Mr. Seselj, last week we had here some submissions that you made

6 to the other side that have to do with Witness Dulovic. I've forgotten

7 his first name.

8 A. Jovan.

9 Q. Jovan Dulovic who testified here. Mr. Robinson instructed me to

10 find the original documents that can be linked up to your submissions

11 since they refused to admit your submissions.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am sorry, Mr. Robinson. If you're

13 telling me to have copies made I will do that, but I've just received

14 these copies. This is a series of photocopies of articles written by

15 Jovan Dulovic and published in Ekspres Politika from the 16th of November,

16 the 26th of November, all of that in 1991. Then the 18th of November, the

17 2nd of November. So from November 1991.

18 In these articles, he speaks very favourably of the JNA and

19 commends their behaviour in the fighting around Vukovar. For example, he

20 says that 118 inhabitants of Vukovar, Serbs and Croats, saw the light of

21 the day after having stayed in cellars for many --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what is the question?

23 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, if I may interrupt, if there's going

24 to be a reference to and quotation from a newspaper article, it has to be

25 on the overhead projector. It then has to be available to us to read it

Page 43741

1 in full should we wish to.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's -- that's the practice, Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Seselj, since I have only one copy of these articles and I've

6 just received that, could the usher please place them on the ELMO, and

7 then you can have a look at least at some of the parts that have been

8 marked. Reference is made to Major Sljivancanin here, too, in a very

9 favourable light. Gratitude for assistance to civilians, Croats, at that,

10 and so on and so forth. Please look at this series of articles.

11 In order to answer my question, are these at least partly articles

12 that you relied on when you wrote those submissions to the other side

13 about the untruthful testimony of Jovan Dulovic or, rather, the difference

14 in -- between his reporting then and his testimony here about Vukovar?

15 MR. NICE: Your Honour, that was a leading but nevertheless it's

16 interesting to see what the articles actually say. And if it becomes

17 relevant to consider their admissibility as evidence, I know the Chamber

18 will have in mind its open recent ruling in respect of the documents of

19 Jasovic and the potential evidential value or not as evidence of these

20 documents, but I'm most interested frankly in seeing what they actually

21 say.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's get it on the overhead projector.

23 There appears to be a technical problem. We're not seeing

24 anything.

25 Mr. Milosevic, the technician is being called. He's coming in.

Page 43742












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13 English transcripts.













Page 43743

1 So move on to another question. We'll come back to this.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I am sorry, but my

3 next question also has to do with something that Mr. Seselj already

4 testified about and the document that I obtained in the meantime and that

5 would also have to be placed on the ELMO. That is --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, then move to the question after that,

7 because the overhead projector is not working.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] After that I have no further

9 questions except -- since I wanted to finish today by all means, except

10 for this other thing that I want to have placed on the ELMO, and that is a

11 decision related to members of the group Spider. Many statements were

12 presented here about them or, rather, what the spokesmen of the federal

13 government said in February 2000 about the crime in Srebrenica. So it was

14 known who had committed it then, members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

15 The 13th of November, 2000, is the date of this decision. So it is about

16 40 days after the coup d'etat of the 5th of October, 2000. It was then

17 that they were all released, set free.

18 So wanted to show you this document, and I wanted to hand out

19 copies to you. I've just received this. They are all in the Serbian

20 language but they can be placed on the ELMO to show what the government

21 spokesman had said was completely disregarded, and these persons mentioned

22 in the criminal report against Erdemovic were set free.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The ELMO is working now, Mr. Milosevic.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Seselj, please take a look at this. This is a series of

Page 43744

1 articles from Ekspres Politika. Can you see the date of the newspaper?

2 A. It seems that this is the 16th of November or the 13th of

3 November.

4 Q. 1991; right?

5 A. 1991.

6 Q. Unless this is a leading question.

7 A. It's illegible the date but I think it says November. This is one

8 of the texts from Ekspres Politika that my legal advisors used when

9 preparing that submission of mine which is a special part of my defence.

10 That is what I submitted to the OTP in accordance with the Rules of

11 Evidence and Procedure.

12 Q. What does it say in the heading and what does it say in the

13 subheading?

14 A. It says above the title that 118 inhabitants of Vukovar, both

15 Serbs and Croats, saw the light of the day after having been in cellars

16 for a long time. "Light finally," is the heading. And then in the

17 subheading: "Sniper shooters were silenced by Zoljas." And then there's

18 another bit saying, "In the darkness of cellars from the 25th of August,"

19 and then Nada Juhas, obviously a Croat lady, stating, "I cannot believe

20 that we are alive," and obviously they appreciate that the JNA liberated

21 the town of Vukovar from the Croat paramilitaries.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The speaker is overlapping so the beginning of

23 the question was not heard by the interpreters.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please. The interpreters have

25 indicated that you're overlapping and so she did not hear the beginning of

Page 43745

1 the last question. Repeat the question, Mr. Milosevic.

2 And please observe the pause, Mr. Seselj.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Seselj, please look at a few characteristic points here.

5 Perhaps it's easier for you to see on the left-hand side where the text

6 is.

7 A. For example, a characteristic point as Jovan Dulovic writes is as

8 follows: "A river of people is flowing out of the huge cellars. A total

9 of 118, both Serbs and Croats. No one is asking about their ethnicity."

10 That's what Jovan Dulovic says, showing how the JNA treated Serbs and

11 Croats equally. Civilians, that is.

12 I can't read the first paragraph because it's quite illegible, but

13 it seems to be describing medical assistance which was given immediately,

14 that several ambulances were waiting to help. "It would not be a good

15 thing if the Ustasha attacked us with mortars just now."

16 So Jovan Dulovic is writing about the liberation of one part of

17 Vukovar before the fighting had stopped.

18 Q. Can you see the subtitle which says "The cruel major"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Will you look at the bottom of the column and tell us who this

21 refers to and what it says about this cruel major.

22 A. This is Major Sljivancanin, who treated these Croatian civilians

23 very nicely. And then Jovan Dulovic comments on his nice behaviour that

24 surprised this Croat woman, and he says: "No knows what she as a Croat

25 heard about the cruelty of JNA soldiers." So he's describing the

Page 43746

1 behaviour of Major Sljivancanin as something quite the opposite of what

2 Croatian propaganda depicted, which characterised JNA soldiers in a very

3 bad way.

4 And then Major Sljivancanin says: "Whenever you need anything,

5 look for me and I'll help you. Just ask for Sljivancanin. I now have to

6 go, the Major said and left. He was followed by the gaze of mothers full

7 of gratitude." This is somewhere near the end of the article. "He had

8 followed by the gaze of mothers and daughters full of gratitude."

9 All this was written by Jovan Dulovic about the then Major now

10 Colonel Veselin Sljivancanin.

11 Q. Before that in this column where there is no photograph, Dulovic

12 describes how Sljivancanin sent a child to hospital. He said, "Take this

13 child to hospital immediately."

14 A. Yes, I see it. Sljivancanin says, "Take this child to the

15 hospital in Negoslavci right away," Major Sljivancanin ordered, showing

16 the ambulance driver the wounded girl of Vlatka. "Let her be given

17 assistance and medicine."

18 A little later Vlatka's mother, Verica, is anxiously looking for

19 her daughter in the crowd. "Where is my child? What have they done to

20 her? Where have they taken her," Verica was crying out.

21 "Don't be afraid. She is in hospital," Sljivancanin said. The

22 frightened woman didn't believe it." This is followed by Dulovic's

23 comment: "Who knows what she as a Croat heard about the cruelty of JNA

24 soldiers."

25 Q. And what does it say then?

Page 43747

1 A. "Get into my car. I'll take you to the hospital so you can see

2 your child and reassure yourself that everything is all right. They both

3 entered the vehicle. In the meantime, the doctors have cleaned and

4 dressed Vlatka's wound which was not life-threatening. The mother and the

5 daughter embraced while Sljivancanin stood next to them."

6 Q. So this is Dulovic's report from the Vukovar war theatre.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Look at the next page. This is a newspaper article published on

9 the following day. So look at the titles and tell us what the main points

10 are. This large title, this heading, that is.

11 A. Yes. Now it's been adjusted. Milka Vidovic is making a

12 statement, "I believed in the army." And what's in the subtitle. "A

13 little less than 90 days in a shelter deep below the Catholic cemetery in

14 Vukovar." And then there's a quotation.

15 A. "We hoped our army would liberate us. The expectations of the

16 guards members were not met, and a mass grave, a common grave near the

17 hospital. This refers to the grave where the Croats buried Serb victims."

18 Q. And look what it says in the article.

19 A. In the article Dulovic describes what happened and says the

20 following: "In the beginning of August, shooting started in Vukovar and

21 barricades were set up. Milka Vidovic from Borovo, Gacesina Street, house

22 number 26, with her husband Djuro, took shelter with their neighbours,

23 Milos Grudic, in a cellar together with the Grudic family. A few days

24 later, the members of the guards burst into the cellar. These were

25 members of the Croatian National Guard Corps. Get out or we'll throw a

Page 43748

1 bomb in. The Chetniks are coming. They're cutting everyone's throats.

2 We're taking you to a shelter."

3 Q. It's quite illegible. Could you put some light on it?

4 Look at the passages marked in yellow. You don't have to read it

5 all out, just a few passages.

6 A. "Several of us -- or, rather, above us on the cemetery the guards

7 members were stationed. Milka Vidovic said, 'When they visited us in the

8 cellar, they said that the Chetniks were cutting everyone's throats. We

9 Serbs kept quiet. We sensed that our people were getting close, and the

10 only thing on our minds was whether we would ever get out of here. I

11 believed in our army and I believed they would arrive.'"

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the question in relation to this,

13 Mr. Milosevic?

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Seselj, what is the signature marked in yellow here?

16 A. Jovan Dulovic. The same Jovan Dulovic who four or five years

17 later changed his version by -- he turned around by 180 degrees because he

18 has become a mercenary of the Western intelligence services, and he writes

19 for the magazine Vreme which is the Belgrade branch of Western

20 intelligence agencies.

21 Q. Mr. Seselj, when you glanced through this article and you dealt

22 with it in your submission, is there a single word here which does not

23 speak favourably of the JNA and the people who fought in Vukovar?

24 A. No. The texts are all exceptionally favourable, full of praise

25 for the soldiers and officers of the JNA during the fighting for Vukovar.

Page 43749

1 Q. Would you look at the next page, please. Let's just see what the

2 date is.

3 A. The 18th, I suppose. The 18th of November.

4 Q. Well, move on. Move on.

5 A. Mr. Milosevic, Dulovic says here one day with volunteers and tank

6 crews in the street fighting for the liberation of Vukovar. He praises

7 the volunteers who participated in the fighting for Vukovar as part of the

8 JNA. So this should be noted.

9 Next page, please. I think that it's very important to point this

10 out.

11 Q. And the signature is Jovan Dulovic. What's the title of this

12 article?

13 A. The title of this article is "The Knights of Vukovar."

14 Q. And who does it refer to?

15 A. The units of Major Borivoje Tesic on the front line in Vukovar.

16 Major Borivoje Tesic I think -- says: "I think this is the last stage of

17 the fighting. Crews carrying out their tasks successfully and the help of

18 brave people is indispensable." It speaks of Croatian Ustasha and so on.

19 Q. Was this also written by Jovan Dulovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. In previous page you said Mr. Dulovic

22 said volunteers as part of JNA. Could you show us the passage where

23 Mr. Dulovic said so?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He says here: "One day with

25 volunteers and tank crews in the street fighting for the liberation of

Page 43750

1 Vukovar." This is above the headline.

2 Then he goes on to say: "Speaking favourably of Stanko Vujanovic,

3 he says the commander of the 1st Company of the Territorial Defence of

4 Vukovar who is said to be a man who knows no fear." It's quite difficult

5 to read this. My eyesight is not so good and this is not very legible.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Can it be enlarged?

8 A. "With his group of cleaners is making great progress, making

9 openings in the walls just large enough for the fighters to squeeze

10 through and attack strongholds of the MUP and ZNG members. The house in

11 which they stopped in Prugomijska [phoen] Street near the Brdo cafe is

12 under constant fire by snipers whose positionings are very difficult to

13 discern."

14 JUDGE KWON: Now, Mr. Seselj, I would like see to see the passage

15 which shows that they were part of JNA as you indicated. Or was it your

16 comment?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Please. In the entire text the

18 volunteers are spoken of as members of the JNA. We have passage here in

19 the third column where it says it's in the late afternoon and the fighting

20 is dying down. The volunteers --

21 JUDGE KWON: Could you use the pointer. And you indicate on the

22 newspaper on the ELMO, not your monitor. Yes.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It's late in the afternoon and the

24 fighting is dying down. The volunteers have pierced deep, and they have

25 conquered territory between the enemy forces. The fighters will stay here

Page 43751

1 until the morning. There were no casualties today except for one soldier

2 who was killed, and his name was Vignjevic."

3 He then says: "We are going back while shells are flying over our

4 heads and Howitzer shells and so on."

5 This whole text implies that the volunteers why part of the JNA.

6 Mr. Kwon, you have here an order showing that these volunteers joined the

7 1st Guards Brigade. The order was delivered to the OTP from Belgrade and

8 it's beyond dispute.

9 In the Vukovar, there were no troops outside the JNA. There were

10 no paramilitary units.

11 JUDGE KWON: It is your comment. I really didn't see any

12 concrete -- the description these volunteers as part of JNA by

13 Mr. Dulovic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have to read the whole text and

15 everything will become clear to you.

16 JUDGE KWON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Look at the next page, please. The following text or this one

19 again says the Knights of Vukovar, Major Borivoje Tesic's units on the

20 front line, and this is a large article which seems not to be by Dulovic,

21 but on the left-hand side there is a small one: "Brave commander falls,

22 Borovo Selo." Would you look at the signature? I believe it's by

23 Dulovic. Could you scroll up?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What does it say in the passage marked by yellow?

Page 43752

1 A. The initials "JD" mean Jovan Dulovic.

2 Q. And what does it say in this last passage?

3 A. To the inhabitants of the Crepulje -- "The inhabitants of the

4 Crepulje village have been mourning since yesterday. Slavisa Milojevic,

5 who with his volunteers, was the mainstay of the defence of this village

6 and one of the bravest and most popular people in this area enjoyed the

7 highest respect among the defenders of the Serbian villages."

8 Q. And he was killed?

9 A. Yes. Of course he deserves all this praise that Dulovic gives

10 him. Next page.

11 Q. Is there anything else here by Dulovic? Would you please have a

12 look? I haven't had time to look at it all carefully.

13 A. Yes. There's a big text. I think the date is the 8th of

14 November. "Fierce artillery fighting in the operation to liberate

15 Vukovar."

16 In these texts he always talks of the fighting to liberate

17 Vukovar, and five years later he's saying something completely different.

18 "Gunfire, hurricane, successful advance of the infantry in

19 Vukovar, alarming messages by the guards members to Zagreb." And then it

20 says: "The army in the centre of Vukovar ready to fight back," and so on

21 and so forth.

22 So this is yet another text that speaks very favourably of the

23 JNA.

24 Q. And the signature is again Jovan Dulovic? It's been circled.

25 A. Yes.

Page 43753

1 Q. Very well.

2 A. The 4th of November, 1991. "For two days fierce fighting has not

3 stopped on all approaches to Vukovar and in the town itself. Streets in

4 flames. The Vukovar-Borovo Naselje road has been cut off. The village of

5 Njusta [phoen] under the control of the artillery of the JNA and the

6 Territorial Defence. Advances by Territorial Defence units and volunteers

7 from the direction of Trpinja stopped on the edge of Borovo Naselje."

8 He then speaks of a Croatian mortar attack on Bobota [phoen] and

9 so on.

10 Q. Is this another report by Dulovic?

11 A. Yes, it's signed by Jovan Dulovic.

12 Q. Is there anything else, any other report?

13 A. I'm looking at another text here but I can't see whether it's by

14 Dulovic or not because it's not signed. It speaks of the Serbian

15 volunteer guard but again a very favourable text. I couldn't see -- I

16 can't see the name of the author here. I can't see it on this page.

17 Q. Is there anything else underneath, another report?

18 A. "Who are the volunteers," is the next title.

19 Q. Well, I can't see anything anymore.

20 A. Yes. How the volunteers, the territorials, the soldiers advanced

21 through the streets of Vukovar. And then the title is "Through the holes

22 to the Ustasha. How come so many snipers, Croatian snipers, in Vukovar?

23 Unknown ammunition with inhumane bullets."

24 What happened in Vukovar was that the Croatian snipers used

25 weapons with subcalibre filling which would cause very serious wounds

Page 43754

1 because the bullet would pass through the body and destroy the internal

2 organs.

3 Q. Mr. Seselj, I can't see what it says here in yellow, highlighted

4 in yellow.

5 A. He speaks favourably about Captain Radic. It's Major Radic now

6 who also stands accused in The Hague. "Throughout the month of October,

7 the fighting went on in that street, says Captain Radic, who took part in

8 the clashes on the front lines. Every day the snipers would kill at least

9 one person. And so prominent volunteers were killed such as Luganja

10 [phoen], Rambo, Captain Trnovace and many others. They were killed in

11 that way. Luganja for a moment appeared at window of a house they had

12 taken control of but he was shot in the head straight away and he fell.

13 The snipers often succeeded in keeping many streets under their own

14 control and then a solution was found to move through the houses."

15 Q. All right. Now, who signed that? Is that Jovan Dulovic's article

16 again?

17 A. Well, it's not legible but it is a series of articles by him. We

18 can't find a signature here but quite obviously it is a series of articles

19 by him.

20 Q. All right, Mr. Seselj. Is that a series of articles to which you

21 referred when you made the submissions to the opposite side with respect

22 to Dulovic's testimony?

23 A. Yes. But this isn't the complete material. My legal advisors

24 found many more texts of this kind and they quote them in extenso, and in

25 my submission I state my intention to disclose them in keeping with

Page 43755

1 Rule 67 of the rules of evidence.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I have one more question

3 [as interpreted] -- Robinson, I have a question for you. As my associates

4 have managed to come by a set of these or at least photocopies of the

5 papers from 1991 which Mr. Seselj refers to in his submission to the other

6 side, the presentation of these photocopies, is that sufficient grounds

7 for my request that they be accepted as exhibits, that Mr. Seselj's

8 submission be accepted as an exhibit?

9 MR. NICE: Rather interesting issues, I think, arise on the

10 validity of these documents as exhibits, and it may be necessary to go

11 back and remind ourselves of what Mr. Dulovic himself said about these

12 matters. So I would respectfully invite the Chamber to put that matter

13 back. But may we see the -- may we have access to this material tonight

14 in copy form in any event? It may be we have them elsewhere, but it will

15 be a difficult task to find them and it may in any event not be an

16 identical collection. I simply don't know.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we'll have to consider the

18 application that you're making. In the meantime, make -- have copies

19 available to the Prosecution and to the assigned counsel and to the

20 Chamber.

21 We'll have to adjourn now. It's 7.00. We will resume tomorrow at

22 9.00 a.m.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day

25 of September, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.