Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 45933

1 Monday, 31 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Djosan, you remain subject to the declaration

7 that you made. Mr. Nice has some questions to put to you.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Nice:

11 MR. NICE: Your Honours, of course getting documents late and not

12 having anything like the facilities to translate them in full means that

13 we first of all guess which passages are going to be most interesting, and

14 we've managed to get some of those translated, but I suspect I will in

15 part inevitably be asking the witness to look at the original and to read

16 entries from the overhead -- the text on the overhead projector. I also

17 don't wish to take very long with this witness, if I can possibly avoid

18 it, for many reasons.

19 Does the Chamber have copies of the Djosan war diary in its now

20 complete form?

21 JUDGE KWON: Only in B/C/S.

22 MR. NICE: In B/C/S. That's fine. The pages we selected for

23 translation, I think, can be distributed, and it amounts to some 25 pages.

24 I think they've got the original text attached to them, but -- the

25 numbering is slightly curious at the bottom but don't worry about that.

Page 45934

1 What you will have now is a clip of papers that is numbered apparently 1

2 of 25, but you'll see that the first sequence goes to page 12, I think,

3 and then the next sequence starts off at -- 13, goes to 13, I think, and

4 then it starts off at another series of 12 pages and then there are some

5 pages behind it, but the English translations are at least chronological

6 even if they are not sequential for every day. So that's what we've got.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one correction. Mr. Nice said

9 that this was Djosan's war diary. This isn't Djosan's war diary, it is

10 the war diary of the command of the 52nd Brigade of the PVO.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milosevic's microphone be adjusted,

12 please. Thank you.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether you heard me.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I did hear you. That's technically correct.

15 MR. NICE: I may also seek to refer to Delic's war diary. I don't

16 know if the Court has access to that at all. If the Court doesn't have

17 access to Delic's war diary, we'll just have to make that available on the

18 overhead projector.

19 I'll just try and activate once more on part of my system. If it

20 doesn't work, I'll live without it. It doesn't seem to be working.

21 Q. Mr. Djosan, the process of recording events in war diaries and the

22 hierarchy of command is such that, in general, what appears in your war

23 diary should be consistent with what appears in Delic's war diary. Would

24 you accept that?

25 A. I didn't understand your question, but I'd like to say something

Page 45935

1 before I go ahead to answer any of the questions. I'd like to have my map

2 placed here, the one that I brought in last time, because I think that any

3 discussion without a map on the board would be incomplete.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us see whether you really need it. But

5 in the meantime, it will be at hand and the court deputy will bear that in

6 mind.


8 Q. I want to -- I'm going to start with a very simple topic that you

9 may not have been asked to deal with very much, and it's --

10 MR. NICE: Oh, Your Honours, may I be assured that the other

11 witness, whose evidence has been interrupted, is not -- doesn't have

12 access to the broadcast of this material at this moment. I'm sure that is

13 the position, but it would be important that he shouldn't have access to

14 it.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll ask the court deputy to see to that.

16 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

17 Q. Now, there's a -- there's a place called Nogavac. Did anything

18 happen at Nogavac on the 1st or 2nd of April of which you were aware?

19 A. Specifically, I can't remember anything actually happening at that

20 point in time, but there's another map. May I please ask that the other

21 map be shown that shows this area in greater detail, the smaller map which

22 relates to Djakovica specifically.

23 Q. You have no recollection of anything happening at Nogavac, which

24 the Chamber can find just slightly to the east of Celine and just north of

25 Velika Krusa on page 10 of the standard atlas, Exhibit 83.

Page 45936

1 Well, tell me this, please, Mr. Djosan - you were in charge of

2 anti-aircraft operations - did VJ planes fly at all during the bombing of

3 Kosovo?

4 A. The bombing of Kosovo started with the bombing of Yugoslavia. And

5 when the bombing in Yugoslavia started, in the first stage the VJ planes

6 were flying.

7 Q. Until when?

8 A. Well, until there was complete air control. But helicopters flew

9 after that, when the need arose, to pull out the wounded, and there were

10 medical corps helicopters flying as well, as far as I know.

11 Q. Until what stage do you say there was flying of this type of -- or

12 was it throughout the bombing campaign?

13 A. No. Medical corps helicopters would fly from time to time during

14 the entire operation, that is to say the aggression against our country,

15 but fighter planes ceased to fly in those very first days when there were

16 no resources for them to fly.

17 Q. You see, we may hear other evidence from other Defence witnesses,

18 or we may have heard some already, to the effect that there was no flying,

19 no operational flying by VJ planes, and I want you to look, please, at a

20 passage in "As Seen, As Told," which we'll show to you I hope in the

21 B/C/S. I'm sorry I haven't given Ms. Dicklich earlier warning of this.

22 Right.

23 MR. NICE: Can you show this to the -- that to the witness and can

24 you display on the overhead projector that.

25 Q. All right. Now, this is a passage from "As Seen, As Told," and

Page 45937

1 you've got the B/C/S version of it. We can see it on the overhead

2 projector, and it relates to Nogavac, and on the right-hand side of the

3 screen, we see this: "Many people remained in Nogavac, staying in

4 burnt-out houses until on or around the 1st or 2nd of April, when Nogavac

5 was bombed by Serbian aircraft. At first it was thought that the dropped

6 bombs had been dropped by NATO, but one interviewee stated that he'd heard

7 on the news that they were Serbian aircraft. More than a hundred

8 civilians were killed and many others were injured when houses they were

9 sheltering in were hit in this attack. Some of the houses had as many as

10 60 to 100 people sheltering in them. The next day, VJ and police entered

11 the village and forced the villagers to bury the dead in a mass grave

12 which was then covered over using a bulldozer. The villagers were then

13 robbed and forced to leave the village."

14 Now, that's a summary of matters which is expressed in "As Seen,

15 As Told." It features in the indictment, and it suggests that VJ planes

16 were used to kill many Kosovo Albanians. Is that correct? Did that

17 happen?

18 A. Well, I've given my answer with respect to that book, or my

19 testimony with respect to the book and my opinion about what it says in

20 that book "As Seen, As Told." First of all, I don't know who saw, and I

21 don't know who it was who told. So I don't like having quotations from

22 the book quoted, the origin of which I do not know.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Colonel, would you just answer the question. Did

24 the event described by the Prosecutor take place; that is, VJ planes

25 bombing Nogavac?

Page 45938

1 Mr. Nice, what paragraph in the indictment is this? I think we

2 just found it. I think we just found it. 63(a)(i).

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course that didn't happen.


5 Q. So that if there was a bombing, your case, your evidence may be,

6 although you didn't remember it earlier, that if there was a bombing at

7 Nogavac on the 1st or 2nd of April, it must have been a bombing by NATO,

8 yes?

9 A. If there was bombing, then yes, it was NATO who did the bombing.

10 Q. Now, you didn't remember it this morning, but tell me, if there

11 was a bombing of the kind that we've heard of, a hundred people killed, is

12 that something you'd expect to find recorded in a war diary, either yours

13 or Delic's?

14 A. In my war diary that needn't have been recorded in view of the

15 fact that in my war diary you will find events which are exclusively

16 linked to Djakovica.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I'm not sure whether we've identified

18 the correct paragraph, but I don't see where there is any allegation of a

19 VJ plane bombing Nogavac in 63(a)(i). Or is it maybe somewhere else?

20 MR. NICE: It may be somewhere else or it may be that -- and I was

21 acting on the basis -- I can tell you this: In preparation for this, I

22 was acting on the basis of questions that the accused was asking of the

23 witness who has been interrupted as to the detail of what was done at

24 Nogavac. I haven't yet checked it in the indictment. I believe it to be

25 referred in the indictment, but if I'm wrong about that, then I'll

Page 45939

1 withdraw that suggestion, but the evidence is still there from "As Seen,

2 As Told," and the point that I'm exploring loses none of its validity, but

3 I'll try and find the point in the indictment and see if there is any

4 further reference to.

5 Q. Mr. Djosan, will you now please go to your diary for the 1st of

6 April of 1999, which I'd like --

7 A. I haven't answered yet, Mr. Nice.

8 Q. Very well.

9 A. I haven't given you an answer. First of all, Mr. Milosevic never

10 mentioned Nogavac at all to me. You can look through your papers. So

11 there was nothing said by Mr. Milosevic about that, so I could not have

12 made the entry. My memory is good, so you can, of course, check it out,

13 but that's what I say.

14 Q. You see -- will you now please look at your war diary, or the war

15 diary of your unit, for the 1st of April.

16 MR. NICE: Can the usher please make it -- display it on the

17 overhead projector if Ms. Dicklich has got another copy, and if the

18 Chamber can find it, they can find where we're looking at. It's page --

19 they're page numbered, I think, and it's page number 5. No. Can we put

20 the original on the overhead projector for the witness, please, or if he's

21 got his diary there.

22 We don't have, I think -- yes, we do.

23 Q. If you look at this passage in your diary, you'll find two things,

24 and we do have a translation of this passage in English, but you'll see as

25 you look through it there's absolutely no reference to Nogavac being

Page 45940

1 bombed at all. Have a look through the 1st of April and the 2nd of April,

2 just to cover both days.

3 MR. NICE: Next page on the overhead projector, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to answer straight away.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. I think that there's been a completely erroneous interpretation of

7 the role of the 52nd Artillery Battalion of the air defence unit. In my

8 war diary I recorded entries which relate to Djakovica, to Djakovica,

9 exclusively to Djakovica. So this area is outside Djakovica, and that is

10 why no entry was made.

11 Now, my units were deployed. I had --

12 Q. Pause for a minute because we've got the point but I still want

13 you to please follow with me the questions that I'm asking. Would you now

14 look at the bottom of the page that's displayed at the moment - and the

15 Chamber can find a translation for this on page 12 of 26, as I think it is

16 registered - and it says this, does it not: "There were no NATO

17 airstrikes against units of our brigade today nor any firing by our forces

18 at NATO aircraft."

19 And if we look at Delic's diary, although I'm not going to trouble

20 you with it again unless -- it says in terms that there were no attacks of

21 any consequence on that day. And what I'd like your help with, please, by

22 reference to the diaries is how it could be, if NATO had bombed Nogavac

23 and killed a hundred people, that the war diaries, yours or Delic's, would

24 make no reference to it?

25 A. I'll tell you right away. NATO bombed Aleksinac, and there is no

Page 45941

1 entry about that in either my diary or Delic's diary. What is entered

2 into a war diary are events which are of key importance and have a key

3 effect on a particular unit. Had a single soldier of Delic's been killed

4 there, that would have been entered. So as I say, not all NATO action in

5 Djakovica was even recorded in my diary if there were no soldiers killed

6 or facilities targeted or resources destroyed, and that is why there is no

7 mention of that in Delic's diary.

8 Q. If you just go to the end of the month. If you'd go now, please,

9 to the 30th of April, which we can see in the original B/C/S text at what

10 is page 36, marked as the 38th day of the war. If you could do that for

11 us, please, Mr. Djosan. In the original, page 36, top right-hand corner,

12 also registered as "38 dan rata," and if we can -- I'm not sure that we

13 have translation of --

14 JUDGE KWON: 8 of 12.

15 MR. NICE: 8 of 12. Your Honour is very helpful. Thank you very

16 much.

17 Q. What we see there is that you were instructed, or your war diary

18 records - I'll just find it again - "OCPRK was ordered not to shoot at

19 targets -" this is at 0600 hours - "because our air force is in action."

20 Now, the reality was that your air force was in action from time

21 to time throughout the conflict, wasn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And of course, your air force could only be in action, apart from

24 humanitarian matters and helicopters moving wounded around, could only be

25 in action to bomb its own people.

Page 45942

1 A. No. First of all, you can see that you're not well-versed in what

2 an air force is. The effects of an air force depends on the type of

3 planes. Fighter planes fight other planes. However, a helicopter

4 transports. A transport plane transports. So when I say the air force,

5 everything that flies is considered to be part of an air force. And when

6 I said that our air force was operational, it meant that our helicopters

7 could have flown, so that's the real answer to your question.

8 Q. "Our air force is in action." This is on the 30th of April. It

9 doesn't say "Our helicopters are flying," it says "Our air force is in

10 action." It sounds as though it's in fighting mode.

11 A. Aircraft and helicopters together form aviation. Both make part

12 of an aviation. And I'm telling you the information is centralised. The

13 alerting is centralised. And I'm telling you it could have happened that

14 planes or helicopters were flying somewhere in the north. All our units

15 would be informed, would be alerted at the same time. It doesn't mean at

16 all that the helicopter was flying in Kosovo and Metohija at the time. It

17 don't necessarily mean that.

18 Q. Can we go to the 16th of April, please. That we may not have a

19 translation for. We don't have a translation for that.

20 MR. NICE: Could you please place, Mr. Usher, page 22 of the

21 original, marked "24 dan rata" or -- I think it's about right, and can you

22 place that on the overhead projector. And for 1955 hours, entry number 8.

23 Q. We see a reference, do we not, to reservists committing acts of

24 rape and being taken into investigation followed by -- taken into custody

25 and followed by investigation. Is that right?

Page 45943

1 A. Yes, only they were not reservists. They were regular soldiers.

2 They were my soldiers --

3 Q. Why is it marked --

4 A. -- they were not reservists.

5 Q. We can see in your diary, or your unit's diary, they were marked

6 as reservists. We can see it in the second line. So how come they got

7 marked as reservists if the truth is it was the regular soldiers who were

8 accused of rape?

9 A. Because that was just the first information we got. And when we

10 established their identity, I went there myself when it was established

11 that they were regular soldiers. The information came from the MUP, and

12 the original information also came from the MUP. The reservists and

13 soldiers were dressed the same, and that's how the original confusion came

14 about. You have documentation about that in the form of some criminal

15 reports that were filed.

16 MR. NICE: Can we look, please, at the 21st of April, which is

17 page 27, Mr. Usher. And at the foot of the page for this, at item number

18 7 -- further down, please. We still don't have translations, I think, for

19 this. We see an entry right at the foot of the page -- right down,

20 please. Push the page right up. That's it. I want to see the bottom of

21 the page, please. Right. You've got to go -- we still can't see the

22 bottom of the page. Can you push it so we can see the bottom entry on the

23 page. The other way round, please, Mr. Usher. Can you push the page up

24 so that I can see all of entry number 7. That's it, thank you.

25 Q. Can you read entry number 7 to us, please, Mr. Djosan.

Page 45944












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 45945

1 A. "21 member of the MUP was killed and seriously wounded in Meja

2 village. The units were ordered to take measures of combat security and

3 given tasks --" can't read this -- "information that there were 300 to 400

4 members of Siptar terrorist forces --"

5 Q. That will probably do for the present purposes. Before -- I'm

6 going to come back to that entry, but just cast your eyes up the page,

7 please. It's item number 2, so you'll have to move the document a little

8 bit. Items 2 and 3. Can you just read out number 2, the 2.30 entry,

9 please.

10 A. "Action of enemy aviation against refugees from Maja villages."

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness read into the microphone,

12 please, and read again.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Colonel. You're being asked by

14 the interpreter to read into the microphone. Start again.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Action of enemy aviation targeting

16 the refugee settlement of Maja in the area of Bistrazin village.

17 Airstrike effected with 32 projectiles of highly destructive power

18 resulting in complete destruction of the settlement." That's here.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. Well, you've read that as Meja in the area of Bistrazin village.

21 Meja is in quotation marks, is it not?

22 A. Maja, Maja; not Meja.

23 Q. Maja.

24 A. Maja was a name for that refugee settlement which housed refugees

25 from Croatia, people who were expelled during the Storm and Flash

Page 45946

1 Operations. There was a Serb refugees settlement, settlement of Serbs

2 expelled from the territory of Serbia during the Croatian offensives.

3 Q. So here we find two things: First of all, we find at 2.30, when

4 NATO bombs an area, you do record it, unlike that which happened at

5 Nogavac, as you would say. And then at the foot of the page in the entry

6 we first looked at, we see that there is a suggestion that a large number

7 of MUP people had been killed at Meja. Two different words. Maja,

8 M-a-j-a, Meja the village.

9 So two points: First, do you record NATO bombing; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And secondly, before the operation against Meja starts at item 7

12 on this page, we see a recording of a large number of MUP people killed,

13 is that right, in the Meja area?

14 A. To your first question, why there is this entry in the diary:

15 Because the refugee settlement Maja is part of Djakovica. Secondly, we

16 had our own unit in the area of Bistrazin that was guarding the Bistrazin

17 bridge, and the airstrike could easily have been on the unit. And

18 thirdly, Meja and Maja are completely different notions and completely

19 different locations. The only thing they have in common are three

20 letters.

21 Q. You see a few days later, a few days after this entry in your war

22 diary, under the operation that you explained was described as Reka

23 operation, a large number of people died at Meja. Was this another

24 example of killings being responsive by way of revenge?

25 A. Mr. Nice, you're asking me questions which are really not

Page 45947

1 appropriate. I could easily ask you if the killing of that Brazilian man

2 in London was responsive by way of revenge.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Colonel, just please answer the question if you

4 can.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a general, but it's all the

6 same. You can call me "Colonel" if you wish.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks for the correction, General.


9 Q. Next page, please. Next page, please.

10 Mr. Djosan, you have been giving an account --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did we have an answer to the question?

12 MR. NICE: I've given him a chance to answer it. He's given the

13 answer he's given. It's kind of negative. It's up to him how he answers

14 these things.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Carry on.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would appreciate it if you would

17 repeat the question and I will answer.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. Very well.

20 A. No, there was no killing by way of revenge or retaliation. There

21 was a combat against terrorists, and terrorists got killed in combat, just

22 as my soldiers did.

23 Q. Very well.

24 A. Except that my soldiers were more often killed in ambushes and

25 because they stepped on mines or because they were kidnapped. But nobody

Page 45948

1 was killed by way of retaliation.

2 Q. You've given an account of NATO bombardment, and the picture you

3 have painted may have been of almost continuous bombardment. Would you

4 look, please, at the next page, which is -- yes, that's the page, and read

5 out the first entry for the 22nd of April for us.

6 A. "In the last 24 hours, intensive flying over by enemy aviation in

7 the area of defence of the brigade was like in the previous days. There

8 was no airstrike on brigade units, nor did we attack them because they

9 were moving outside the reach of successful targeting by our weapons."

10 MR. NICE: Two pages further on, please. Again on the first

11 entry. This is the -- two pages further on. 32nd -- Mr. Nort. Mr. Nort,

12 that's the one. The 32nd day of the war.

13 Q. Can you read the first entry for this page, please, Mr. Djosan.

14 A. Yes. "Action of enemy aviation in the zone of the brigade was

15 absent. Over-flights were effected like on the previous day. Our units

16 did not fire because the targets were outside our zone of activity,

17 outside our range."

18 MR. NICE: Next page, please, Mr. Nort. The 33rd day of the war.

19 Q. Please read the first entry again for us, and now I think we have

20 -- we have translations into English to be followed.

21 A. "The intensity of enemy over-flights as yesterday. There were no

22 airstrikes at the combat disposition of the units of the brigade. We did

23 not fire at them because they flew outside the range of our weaponry.

24 Q. Then the last entry on this topic -- would be on the next page,

25 please, Mr. Nort, the 34th day of the war, and it's the entry at 1900

Page 45949

1 hours.

2 A. Shall I begin with the first entry?

3 Q. If it's relevant to this topic.

4 A. It seems to be.

5 Q. You're quite right. "Four missiles were sent into the Devet

6 Jugovica barracks." Yes.

7 A. "In the earning morning hours enemy aviation intensively struck

8 against installations in the zone of the brigade with four projectiles

9 there fired at the Devet Jugovica barracks." That's in the centre of

10 Djakovica, I want to add.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... but then if we go over to 1900

12 hours, we see again as a reflection of their level, or the strike rate of

13 air attack --

14 A. "Due to bad weather and rain, the intensity of activity by enemy

15 aviation was lower." Of course, when the weather is bad, planes don't fly

16 so often. However, they were able to fire, to effect airstrikes

17 regardless of the rain, in view of the tactics they were applying.

18 Q. So these last few entries that I've asked you to read out show

19 that it was by no means daily attack on your area, or anything like it,

20 was it?

21 A. No, that's not true. There were daily airstrikes. I'm just

22 telling you this diary was kept in Djakovica. That was the headquarters

23 of the brigade, and there was one artillery battalion in Bec, which is

24 slightly further away from Djakovica. So if there were airstrikes in

25 Prizren, they were not striking installations of the brigade. Airstrikes

Page 45950

1 were a daily occurrence. And when I say "daily occurrence," I mean by day

2 and by night. It's just that they didn't hit one of our installations

3 every day.

4 MR. NICE: The Chamber will recall, looking at the page displayed

5 at the moment, that this is the first reference we found to the "Reka"

6 operation. I needn't repeat that, but just to remind you, and if Mr. Nort

7 would just display the next page and we can see in the English the 27th,

8 now that we have it translated. There's the next reference we've been

9 able to find to Reka at 0600 hours, where it says: "The action of --"

10 Q. Perhaps you'd like to read out the entry at 0600 just again so

11 we've got the precise words that you would use, or that were used in the

12 diary.

13 A. Yes. I think I read this three or four days ago.

14 Q. Just read that one sentence. "The action of --"

15 A. "The action of mopping up of Siptar terrorists forces, Reka, began

16 in which the following forces are participating --"

17 Q. "Ciscenje" is the word?

18 A. 1 MB of the first light rocket -- yes.

19 Q. "Ciscenje" means -- it's been translated as "mopping up," but does

20 it also mean "cleansing"?

21 A. No. "Ciscenje" means separating the good from the bad.

22 Q. Does it?

23 A. If you take it as a word. That meant separating the terrorists

24 from the rest of the population.

25 Q. And we've been told by the accused that the term "ethnic

Page 45951

1 cleansing" was first applied in respect of sufferings by the Serbs. Is

2 the word "Ciscenje" used for ethnic cleansing? Help us.

3 A. "Ethnic cleansing" and "Ciscenje" are different things. Ethnic

4 cleansing has now taken place in Kosovo and Metohija, and it is now

5 ethnically really pure.

6 Q. I'm right, aren't I, that the phrase "ethnic cleansing" --

7 A. No, you're not.

8 Q. Perhaps you'd let me ask the question first, Mr. Djosan. The

9 phrase "ethnic cleansing" in your language has, as one of its two words,

10 the word "Ciscenje"; correct? Simple question.

11 A. [No translation]

12 Q. Thank you. You give your answer by your reply.

13 A. No, no, I did not answer the question.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I did not hear the answer.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please don't do that.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please give the answer. I didn't hear the

17 answer.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't really answer, that's why

19 you didn't hear me.

20 Ethnic cleansing is a notion that was imposed and introduced to

21 indicate that Serbs were doing it.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me give you the --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, Serbs are completely absent

24 from Kosovo. There are no Serbs in Kosovo.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question that was asked was --

Page 45952

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So that's a real ethnic cleansing.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question that was asked was whether in your

3 language the term "ethnic cleansing" has as one of its words "Ciscenje."

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In our language -- there are two

5 words in our language for that and one of them is "Ciscenje." "Etnicko

6 ciscenje" is a term that consists two of words, the last of them, the

7 second of them being "Ciscenje."

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

9 MR. NICE: If we can go to the 28th of April, the Chamber will

10 simply find again that -- putting its evidence and memory perhaps in

11 context, a third reference to the Reka plan on the fifth line of the entry

12 on the 28th of April, the 36th day of the war. I don't need to go through

13 that again.

14 Q. Can you just tell us this, Mr. Djosan: Have you been thinking

15 about your evidence? Has it occurred to you where we might be able to

16 find a copy of the Reka plan?

17 A. First of all, plan of the Operation Reka -- first of all, it was

18 not an operation. It was an action, an anti-terrorist action. You should

19 distinguish between those two terms. "Operation" is a much larger notion.

20 It implies greater forces and a larger area and takes a longer time.

21 Second, my unit did take part in that anti-terrorist action, and I

22 gave you an explanation. The complete plan is something that I don't

23 have. Every unit gets the relevant excerpt for its own action. My part

24 of the task was to defend the axis towards Cabrat. I told you that a

25 couple of days ago.

Page 45953

1 Q. We have your evidence on that, and what you described it as was an

2 assignment to prevent the grouping of Siptar terrorist forces rallying in

3 their Carragojs valley.

4 A. Carragojs.

5 Q. Yes, I accept that. And you knew that the plan - it was your

6 terminology - the plan was called Reka. Well, I still ask you: Do you

7 know where we can find a copy of this plan?

8 A. That's something I don't know. I know about the orders I received

9 for my unit. Each unit gets its own task, its own assignment.

10 Q. You see, if we look at Delic's diary for the same period, and I

11 don't have time to with you, but if we look at Delic's diary for the same

12 period, we will find no reference to the word "Reka." So here we have a

13 plan of great importance and at the end of which a large number of people

14 lay dead. Can you explain to us how such an important plan has a name - a

15 code name - in your diary that doesn't appear as a code name in the diary

16 or any other documentation of your superior officer?

17 A. Which superior officer do you mean? Who do you mean?

18 Q. Delic.

19 A. Delic was not my commander. He was not my superior officer. We

20 were colleges. He was the commander of one brigade, and I was commander

21 of another brigade.

22 Q. All right. Well, can you explain, then, how people involved in

23 the same operation will not be using the same code term to describe it?

24 A. First of all, it was not an operation. It was an anti-terrorist

25 action. In Kosovo and Metohija, a total of three anti-terrorist actions

Page 45954

1 took place during the entire aggression. One was the anti-terrorist

2 operation in 1998. Another operation was the aggressive operation of the

3 air force, and the third was the defensive operation of the army of

4 Yugoslavia. There were only three operations.

5 Q. Now, if Lazarevic is the superior to whom you're concerned, should

6 we be able to find reference -- is your superior. Can you -- where shall

7 we find reference in either his records or his archives to this Reka plan,

8 so that we can know what was really planned? And I'm using the word

9 "planned" because, in translation, that's what you described it as a few

10 days ago.

11 A. Did I say that it was called "Reka Operation" or did I say it was

12 a plan?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... away from the

14 argument about whether it's an operation or a plan or an action. You know

15 what the questions are about.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was an anti-terrorist action, and

17 it would be very wrong to say that the army of Yugoslavia undertook an

18 operation against such small forces. An operation implies the use of

19 forces the size of a corps or larger, and in this action a relatively

20 small number of soldiers and policemen were involved. That cannot be an

21 operation. An operation is defined by the forces, the time, and the area

22 for which they fought. And if we now start saying that operations were

23 being effected everywhere, then we would make it sound like the Second

24 World War or something.

25 And as to the second part of your question about the plan of

Page 45955

1 General Lazarevic, how could I know about the plans of my superior

2 officer, his documentation? Anyway, it's not his documentation. It's the

3 documentation of the corps. Our superior officers do not have their own

4 documentation. Just like Djosan's diary: It's not Djosan's diary, it's

5 the diary of his brigade.

6 Q. One more question on this and then I'm going to move on because I

7 want to finish as soon as I possibly can. If we look at Delic's diary for

8 the same period, we'll find plans that are much broader in scope than the

9 particular Reka plan that you were concerned with. Was there a larger

10 plan of which Reka was an integral part; and if so, what was the name of

11 the larger plan?

12 A. I'm not aware of that. My knowledge is reflected in the diary.

13 Whatever I knew is in the diary. If I had been aware of any other plan,

14 it would have been reflected in the diary.

15 Q. I can do no more than that.

16 MR. NICE: The Chamber may be interested, or the accused may be

17 interested in finding, there's another reference to rapes on the 2nd of

18 May, I think, with investigation. I mention that for completeness. I'm

19 not going to go into it in detail.

20 If we can go, please, Mr. Nort, to page 41, the 44th day of the

21 war, and to the entry at 1800. This is for -- and we -- we don't, I

22 think, have this, unfortunately, translated, but if we look at 1800,

23 please, Mr. Nort. Right down at the bottom of the page.

24 We see here a reference to plan called -- or something called

25 "Silo." Or Silo. Silo - I'm grateful - it's got a diacritic on top of

Page 45956












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Page 45957

1 it, I can see it now.

2 Q. Can you read out the sentence that ends in "Silo" so that we can

3 see what it is all about.

4 A. Yes. First I'd like to say something in relation to what you said

5 about rape. There were individual cases. Both were attempted rapes, and

6 you do have the documentation about this. Every such individual case was

7 prosecuted. So let's deal with that straight away. I don't want to omit

8 referring to that kind of thing.

9 As for Silo, what is written here, I don't know what you're

10 specifically interested in. Are you interested in what silo is? That is

11 a type of a rocket system for air defence.

12 Q. Very well. That's what it is. I'm not concerned. I'm trying to

13 decipher your document and to see how it may assist Chamber.

14 Let's move on, then, please, to page 47, the 49th date of war,

15 12th of May. Again on the -- it's the entry at 16 -- just above 1600,

16 Mr. Nort, please.

17 Here we see another reference at the end of this entry to

18 something involving VP and then "Skore," which I think probably means

19 Ceasar. Is this a code word? What does it mean, "Skore"?

20 A. No. First of all, I don't think it's "Skore." It's "Skoze."

21 Yes, Skoze. It's an elevation where we place our rocket system in order

22 to fire at the air force.

23 Q. Very well. We see, and you -- I can take you to the references,

24 but will you accept that in the period of May you were sending to Pristina

25 regularly for reinforcements? Is that right?

Page 45958

1 A. No, Pristina.

2 Q. You were sending for reinforcements to Pristina. For example, on

3 page 52, the 54th day of the war.

4 MR. NICE: Please, Mr. Nort, page 52, 54th day of the war, and the

5 entry at 1320.

6 Q. Here you are recording that you -- the brigade has sought

7 reinforcements from Pristina; isn't that right?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Thank you. And there are other entries to the like effect. Would

10 you accept that?

11 A. Well, I'd have to know what kind of reinforcement and in what

12 sense. There can be reinforcements in different ways. We asked for air

13 defence reinforcements because the most intensive airstrikes by NATO were

14 at that time in Metohija parallel to the aggressor strikes coming from

15 Albania. That is to say the stronger the terrorist attacks from Albania

16 were, the more there were NATO airstrikes in Metohija. That is why we

17 sought reinforcement in the terms of PDO, the air defence systems.

18 Q. If you go to page 53, the 55th day of the war, in this 1610 entry

19 we can see that you were actually getting whole fresh units from Pristina,

20 weren't you? It wasn't just -- you were actually getting more units. And

21 just think back, please. Why did you need more units?

22 A. Mr. Nice, you're asking me things that you don't know about. I

23 cannot get any kind of equipment without soldiers.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: General. General, answer the question. Leave

25 aside the comments.

Page 45959

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we asked for reinforcements,

2 that meant that we were asking for an air defence unit. You cannot get

3 equipment without getting the manpower you need.

4 In my unit, I had the exact number of people required for manning

5 the equipment we had. An aircraft without a pilot doesn't mean a thing.

6 The same goes for our units. When we asked for reinforcements, we asked

7 for a unit of the air defence to come in. That is the manpower or the

8 personnel that you're speaking of.


10 Q. So I'm going to suggest to you that the whole purpose of getting

11 reinforcements is because the plan to move the population was under way.

12 Would you go now, please, to the 56th day of the war --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think he must answer that.

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes, certainly.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Answer that question.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. I don't think you're

17 right on that at all, and I think that your line of thinking is

18 tendentious. How could I move the population out with air defence

19 systems? I already told you that that could have happened only if they

20 were on aircraft.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. 56th day of the war, please --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought your

24 immediately preceding answer was to the effect that you can't work the

25 systems without men and therefore you had to have men as part of the

Page 45960

1 reinforcements. Was that not the answer?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: So what Mr. Nice is suggesting is you didn't need

4 the men for the air defence systems, you need the men to help with the

5 movement of the population. So why don't you deal with that question?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that it is pointless

7 to answer that kind of question. I have explained that air defence only

8 operates against an aviation. So if we asked for anti-aircraft defence

9 reinforcements, we were asking for them in order to be able to fire back.

10 And you know that there were airstrikes every day.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 MR. NICE:

13 Q. There are only three more pages that I want you to look at. 56th

14 day of the war, then, please, the 18th of May. If we go down to the

15 bottom of the page, at 16.30. This is the third time you get

16 reinforcements, by my calculation, from Pristina. Perhaps you'd read that

17 entry, just -- just the entry for 16.30.

18 A. Yes. "The Chief of Staff goes for the third time in succession to

19 Pristina in order to take over the reinforcement unit and to bring it into

20 the brigade."

21 Q. Very well. Now, then, we'll look at the next entry. The Chamber

22 will --

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. I'm sorry. Will you now then -- we'll look at the next entry.

25 The Chamber will immediately recognise the second word on the next entry.

Page 45961

1 Perhaps you would be good enough to read the entry out.

2 A. "The action of cleaning up the terrain in the villages south-west

3 of Cabrat, reported by AKM." That is the forward command post of the

4 Pristina corps. Our two firing platoons were supposed to take part in

5 it --

6 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

7 A. -- from the logistics part and from the other part of the

8 brigades.

9 Q. Now, our interpreters have used the word "mopping up" or "cleaning

10 up" for "Ciscenje," and we know that it features in the phrase, or is one

11 of the words that features in the phrase "ethnic cleansing."

12 Here, in context, cleaning up the villages to the south-west of

13 Cabrat, that was ethnic cleansing you were engaged in, wasn't it?

14 A. Of course that was not the case. It was not ethnic cleansing, it

15 was cleansing from terrorists. And the word "cleansing" or "clean-up"

16 means separating something from the other. When you're cleaning your

17 apartment, for instance, I imagine you leave the apartment intact, you

18 just get the rubbish out.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Djosan, is this an example of men within your

20 brigade being used for purposes other than air defence?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Part of the unit from time to time,

22 at different points in time, when necessary, on orders from the superior

23 command, took part in that. That's the unit that was called the

24 intervention unit, and it consisted of two platoons of -- and it consisted

25 of soldiers whose speciality was infantry.

Page 45962


2 Q. And that two platoons reinforced by units from Pristina on three

3 occasions?

4 A. No. No. A platoon cannot receive reinforcements. Reinforcements

5 from Pristina were received only in terms of anti-aircraft equipment as

6 the airstrikes against our forces and the civilian population in towns was

7 intensified. That is to say, bombing by NATO aviation. As soon as the

8 NATO Air Force strikes stopped, these reinforcements were no longer

9 needed.

10 Q. 57th day of the war, please, 19th of May.

11 MR. NICE: The 18.50 entry, please, Mr. Nort. Thank you very

12 much. Immediately on the screen.

13 Q. Perhaps you'd like to read for us the 18.50 entry.

14 A. "From the IKM of the Pristina Corps we received orders that this

15 delayed action of cleansing or cleaning up villages below Cabrat should be

16 realised on the 20th of May and that the planned units should be at their

17 position for departure at 5.00 in the morning."

18 Q. So the cleaning up, what you would say the separation, I think, of

19 the terrorists from the good people is planned in advance with units, and

20 it's got a start time at 5.00 the following morning; is that right?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. So if you go to the following day, the 58th day of the war --

23 A. Let me just finish, please.

24 Q. Yes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

Page 45963

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had our units in that area, and

2 there were a great many terrorists there. It was necessary to provide

3 security for our units against the terrorists.


5 Q. But these units that are being delayed -- put on a delayed start

6 until 5.00 the following morning are going to do the cleaning up,

7 cleansing, mopping up, separation, whatever it is described by the word

8 "Ciscenje," yes?

9 A. Yes. My unit or, rather, part of my unit; two platoons.

10 Q. So let's go over, then, to page -- the 58th day of the war. The

11 20th of May. The 5.00 entry at the top, which is what we would expect.

12 Read that out for us, please.

13 A. "Units for clearing up from our unit --"

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please read slower. Thank

15 you.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, the interpreter is asking you to read

17 more slowly and into the microphone. Would you just read that again,

18 please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Units for clean-up from our

20 composition, that is to say one platoon from the logistics and one platoon

21 from the command at the ordered time should take the departing positions

22 as they are ready to carry out the set assignment."

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. This is the clean-up units being sent off to Cabrat, I think, is

25 that right?

Page 45964

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then we go to 17.50 on the same page. And if there's anything

3 significant in the middle, you must let me know about it, but if we go to

4 17.50 on the same page, read that entry out, please.

5 A. "Units that took part in clearing the terrain returned to their

6 original units. The task was carried out successfully without any

7 losses."

8 Q. So tell us, please, separating out the KLA from the others, how

9 many people died, how many people taken prisoner, where is it all

10 recorded?

11 A. My units were only in the blockade. My units did not have contact

12 with the terrorists.

13 Q. Units are sent off at 5.00, as we can see, to do whatever is meant

14 by "Ciscenje." The operation is successful --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- and there have been no losses on your side. Can we find out,

17 please, what actually happened. Were people killed? Were people

18 arrested? Were people moved out? Which is it?

19 A. "Units that took part in clearing up the terrain returned to their

20 original units. The task was successfully carried out without any

21 losses." That is to say the task that the unit had was carried out. That

22 means that they were on the blockade line and that they did not have any

23 losses and that they were not engaged in any operation.

24 Q. You see, Mr. Djosan, we are trying to work out through the

25 contemporaneous documents that come late to hand what happened, and I must

Page 45965

1 suggest to you that this diary of yours shows that you were actually

2 engaged in the processes of ethnic cleansing. And the reason it doesn't

3 find reflection in, for example, Delic's diary, these entries of yours, is

4 because what you were doing was wrong and you all knew it.

5 A. That's not correct. My units are only -- or, rather, only a small

6 part of my units that were in Djakovica were engaged from time to time in

7 protecting primarily their own combat order; their own combat order. And

8 every unit has the right and duty to protect the order and deployment of

9 its own units. That is not ethnic cleansing. That was only fighting

10 against terrorists.

11 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I'm grateful for the time to deal with

12 that document. Its production as an exhibit, it may or may not be that

13 the Chamber would prefer to put all parts of this diary together

14 comprehensively or it may want to exhibit them separately. The

15 translations are, of course, draft translations and I'm sorry that we

16 weren't able to guess in advance which other pages we would -- our

17 research has subsequently shown would find of value to you.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, would it have been possible to use some

21 word other than "Ciscenje" in relation to the action you were taking

22 against the terrorists?

23 A. I think that the word "Ciscenje" in a way was a clumsy choice, but

24 it was used very often. Whoever kept the diary, the operations officer,

25 often used it -- or, rather, this word was often used irrespective of what

Page 45966

1 was actually being done. Specifically, the word itself, "Ciscenje,"

2 really has a very broad meaning, but it was customary. It was used often,

3 and sometimes quite simply it was used in order to record things faster,

4 to write them down faster.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you just tell us again what -- what you say

6 it means in the context in which we saw it referred to perhaps five or six

7 times.

8 A. It was used -- in the concrete context, it means that this was

9 fighting against terrorists, Siptar terrorists, in certain places where an

10 action was being carried out. So that means that this was only fighting

11 against terrorists who were fighting against our units, who were resisting

12 them, et cetera. This does not mean at all that the population were the

13 targets of the military and the police. After all, there was a witness

14 here from Osek Hilja, from Cabrat, from that area who talked about this.

15 My unit was in Osek Hilja all the time and there weren't any problems at

16 all. But there were places where our units sustained major losses,

17 especially as the aggression continued, there were more and more

18 terrorists in urban areas.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: It was only used in relation to the terrorists?

20 A. Terrorists only, yes. When it says "Ciscenje," it meant removing

21 them, taking them captive, and even killing terrorists in a war. That is

22 to say, destroying terrorists.


24 A. If they could be taken prisoner, of course they were taken

25 prisoner, but fighting went on. But it was terrorists only.

Page 45967

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, is there anything arising from

2 this phase of the cross-examination that you might wish to take up in

3 re-examination?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, just a few questions.

6 Further re-examination by Mr. Milosevic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] General, Mr. Nice quoted page 6 to you, trying to

8 prove that it was contradictory to your statement, that every day there

9 were bombing campaigns during the aggression. Was the bombing campaign a

10 daily occurrence in Kosovo and Metohija?

11 A. Every day.

12 Q. On page 6, it says: "Airstrikes of NATO. There weren't any NATO

13 airstrikes at the positions of our brigade."

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. So that there were no airstrikes relates only to the positions of

16 your brigade?

17 A. The positions of my unit only. And the buildings or, rather, the

18 positions where my units are, Cabrat, and so on and so forth.

19 Q. All right. Let's not waste time. On the top of that page, it

20 says at 8.45 the air alert signal went off. What does this say here? ODH

21 what?

22 A. The observation station from the Metervojnovic [phoen] barracks.

23 Q. All right. And then it says that NATO struck several times, the

24 NATO Air Force.

25 A. Yes.

Page 45968












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Page 45969

1 Q. So this day that he chose out of context, he claims that there was

2 no activity because there weren't any airstrikes against your unit.

3 A. There was activity every day.

4 Q. Was there a single day in Kosovo when there were no NATO

5 activities?

6 A. I do not recall a single day in Kosovo and Metohija without any

7 NATO activity.

8 Q. At the beginning, Mr. Nice asked you about Nogavac, and you

9 responded that at first our air force was flying. Our air force, was it

10 flying over Kosovo and Metohija during the aggression?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When you say that it was flying, you are referring to other parts

13 of Yugoslavia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. But in Kosovo they had to respect air supremacy; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. NICE: That's, of course, a leading question which takes no

18 account of the text, and it shouldn't have been asked by the accused, as

19 he knows, because when he says, When you're referring, you're referring to

20 other parts of Yugoslavia, the text needs to be examined to see what it

21 says. It doesn't say that at all.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you are to avoid leading

23 questions.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that this question was not a

25 leading question at all. It was just a yes/no question, and he gave his

Page 45970

1 answer. So it was not a leading question at all.


3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Nice showed you page 22 here and said that a group of

5 reservists was referred to here. What does it say here at 19.55 on page

6 22? Could I please read it out, or could you read it out?

7 A. I can. At 19.55: "We were informed by the MUP that a group of

8 reservists in the village of Crmljanje are carrying out rapes and robbery.

9 The commander ordered that --"

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please read slower. The

11 interpreters cannot follow.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: General. General, you're being asked by the

13 interpreters to read more slowly.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. General, you don't have to read the first part that you quoted

16 when Mr. Nice said so, but in this first part, does it say, "We were

17 informed by the MUP"? This -- is this the information that you recorded

18 the MUP informed you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you don't know?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And now please read out the part that Mr. Nice didn't want you to

23 read, that is to say the commander ordered, what Mr. Nice didn't ask you.

24 A. "The commander ordered -" that is to say I ordered - "that the

25 commander of the 3rd Battalion of the PVO, who was stationed there,

Page 45971

1 together with the head of the security organ and the Military Police

2 Platoon, carry out an on-site investigation and arrest the perpetrators."

3 So these were not reservists, they were soldiers.

4 Q. You established that after the investigation, but you recorded

5 here what the MUP informed you, what you ordered. You ordered for people

6 to go out and arrest the perpetrators. Thank you, General.

7 Let us just have a look at this, this page that has to do with the

8 relevant date, the 27th. That is page 33. This was often mentioned here.

9 A few days ago you quoted this and now as well. So what does this

10 say here? "The action of cleaning up the STS, the Siptar terrorist

11 forces." Isn't that what it says?

12 A. The action of cleaning up the Siptar terrorist forces has started.

13 Q. All right. Thank you, General. So "Ciscenje" in relation to

14 Siptar terrorist forces, can it pertain to anything else but to what it

15 does pertain to, that is to say the Siptar terrorist forces?

16 A. That only; nothing else. That is to say, neutralising the Siptar

17 terrorist forces.

18 Q. Have you ever heard of any measures of that kind being taken

19 against the civilian population?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And was anything done to help the civilian population?

22 A. Yes, several times.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, you just used the word "neutralising,"

24 for "Ciscenje." That's the first time I've heard that. Can it have that

25 meaning as well, to neutralise?

Page 45972

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've told you a few moments

2 ago that the word "Ciscenje" in a way became customary and sometimes for

3 practical reasons it was used. Maybe it should have said all the time

4 "the Ciscenje of Siptar terrorist forces," but "neutralising" could also

5 be an adequate and appropriate word.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Page 28, which also pertains to this action Reka. It says:

9 "Brief discussion among the command organs of the brigade where it was

10 pointed out --" what was pointed out here? At 0700 hours. You have a

11 meeting of your commanders.

12 A. I don't have that page here with me.

13 Q. Page 34. A few moments ago Mr. Nice showed you that page. That

14 is the 28th. That's the date.

15 A. The -- page 34, the 36th day of the war?

16 Q. Yes. Yes.

17 A. "Short meeting of the organs of the brigade command on the daily

18 engagement, where it was stressed --"

19 Q. Then colon.

20 A. Then colon. "Intervention unit would be engaged in Reka." No.

21 It says, "Intervention unit continues to be engaged in the Reka action."

22 Q. What else was pointed out here? "Intervention unit continues to

23 be engaged in the Reka action."

24 A. "The chief of engineering and the chief of ABHO, if the Terzanski

25 and Ivanski bridge were to be destroyed, alternative routes should be

Page 45973

1 used, that there should be relocation of the command post."

2 Q. All right. So this is your morning meeting.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What is stated here is that, inter alia, what was discussed at

5 that meeting, that the intervention unit is still engaged in that action,

6 continues to be engaged.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you said action is evolving according to plan and the

9 dynamics involved, does that mean that you have to have a written plan for

10 this action Reka, or is this the written plan for the Reka operation? Is

11 it customary, since you're a professional soldier, to have a written plan

12 for this kind of action or is this part of a general anti-terrorist

13 effort? Have you heard of a written plan for Reka?

14 A. I did not see this plan, but I heard of it. I heard of the Reka

15 plan.

16 Q. Now, your unit had assignments there on both days; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it held a blockade line for both days.

19 A. Yes, at Cabrat.

20 Q. You didn't have any contact with the terrorist groups, did you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You didn't go into operation, into action?

23 A. No, we didn't go into action. We didn't use any ammunition. We

24 didn't have any casualties.

25 Q. All right. Thank you. On the 30th of April here, Mr. Nice - and

Page 45974

1 that's page 36 - quoted your entry here in the diary: "Signal sounded

2 means the end of danger from the air SCVK." What does that all mean?

3 "The operative centre was ordered not to open target -- open fire on

4 targets in the air because our air force is in action. OCPRK ordered not

5 to ..." et cetera.

6 Now, tell me, our air force, did our air force carry out any

7 assignment of the bombing of any target in Kosovo and Metohija?

8 A. I am not aware of any such assignment, and I would have to have

9 known if it had existed. And as has been reported here that our air force

10 would be flying, I would have to know with certainty of each specific case

11 and concrete case.

12 Q. All right. Fine. Let me just take a moment to find my way in

13 these notes and entries. Ah, yes.

14 Now, Mr. Nice placed page 27 before you. The 21st of April is the

15 date, and it was linked to -- well, actually he made some confusion

16 between Meja and Maja and you explained that to us, but read out what it

17 says -- read out what it says -- it was the 29th day of the war, the 27th

18 page, at 0230 hours. The actions of enemy planes.

19 A. The action of enemy air force at the refugee camp of Maja in the

20 area of Bistrazin village, and this attack used 23 projectiles of great

21 destructive power, and as a result the whole settlement was completely

22 destroyed.

23 Q. Yes. He asked you to start reading that passage and then you

24 didn't go further. What does it say further on? What's the next entry?

25 A. "A team from the brigade toured the region where the action had

Page 45975

1 taken place, the action by enemy air force -" that is to say in brackets

2 the Maja refugee camp - "and came across an atrocious site. Six persons

3 killed, 32 were wounded, of which 18 seriously wounded and one child was

4 in a critical state. The material damage was complete."

5 Q. So you provided us with an explanation as to why this kind of

6 attack was entered, an entry was made of it. Did part of your unit go on

7 the spot, on site?

8 A. Yes, that's right. It was in my area. It was near the bridge at

9 Bistrazin, where we had a unit of ours stationed.

10 Q. Then what does it say in 20? One member, a MUP member was killed

11 and one seriously wounded in the village of Meja; is that what it says?

12 A. Yes, that's what it says.

13 Q. Now, with respect to that, we have the next entry, and tell us

14 what that says. What does your next entry say?

15 A. It says one member of the MUP was killed, one was seriously

16 injured.

17 Q. And the next sentence? What's the next sentence? Read it out.

18 A. "The units were ordered to take measures of combat -- providing

19 combat security and carry out tasks to --" just a minute, let me decipher

20 this.

21 Q. It says west, something west of; is that right?

22 A. "The units were ordered to take measures of combat security and --

23 west of Cabrat, and the information that west of Cabrat there were 300 to

24 400 terrorist forces or, rather, Siptars --" in brackets it says "members

25 of the Siptars, STC -- STS." So --

Page 45976

1 Q. At 20 and 2000 -- 2400 hours, you were asked to raise your

2 security readiness, combat security readiness; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So combat security readiness, does that mean an attack or what?

5 A. No, it means to step up our awareness and alertness and our guards

6 and everything, and to prepare for a possible attack.

7 Q. All right. Thank you. So you received information at the same

8 time you were asked to raise your readiness, alert readiness, that there

9 were 400 Siptar terrorists, about 400, 3 to 400. Now, how many of your

10 men were in the area, those that manned the air defence weapons?

11 A. In Cabrat there were about a hundred of my soldiers of my unit --

12 members of my unit.

13 Q. And what were they?

14 A. They provided security for the command post of the brigade and

15 catered to that command post.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, naturally I'd like to complete

18 this witness's testimony before taking the break, but if you are going to

19 be very much longer, then we will have to take the break. How much longer

20 will you be?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't need too much -- too

22 much longer, but another ten minutes, I think, because quite obviously --

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand one hour and 45 minutes is the

25 limit. We'll take the break for 20 minutes.

Page 45977

1 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. General Djosan, Mr. Nice showed you the 28th page, where it says:

6 "In the last 24 hours -" if you can take a look - "there were intensive

7 flights by enemy air force in the zone." And he showed you several

8 examples of your entries where you record on page 30, for example, using

9 almost the same words, that there were intensive flights but that the

10 targets were outside the area which could be reached and targeted and out

11 of range of your weapons.

12 So he mentioned some of these entries of yours made in your diary.

13 What does this point to? Can you see the intensity of the action or not?

14 A. What we can see here is the intensity of the action by the fact

15 that we did not respond to the planes flying overhead outside the range of

16 our own equipment. In view of the range of our equipment, we were not

17 able to target those planes for which we were certain we wouldn't be able

18 to down them. And they were flying at extremely high altitudes, generally

19 speaking.

20 Q. So your entries just relate to the positions of your brigade and

21 nothing else and how that was affected -- and they were affected; is that

22 right?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Mr. Nice showed you page 38, where at 1600 hours, what does it say

25 there? From MUP information received. What does it say? Read it out,

Page 45978

1 please, yourself. He said that there was some rapes mentioned.

2 A. Information received from MUP told us that a group of soldiers had

3 carried out rapes in Osek Hilja. The commander ordered a detailed

4 investigation and urgent steps to be taken -- energetic steps to be taken.

5 Q. And what happened, actually?

6 A. There was a rape attempt on the part of one soldier in Osek Hilja,

7 and we received information from MUP to that effect. We sent a security

8 organ there to check the situation out, and a military police unit, and

9 handed that soldier over to the court-martial in Pristina, along with a

10 criminal report against him.

11 Q. All right. Fine. One more question. You explained to us or,

12 rather, to Mr. Nice a moment ago what kind of reinforcements you sought.

13 Can you be more precise and tell us what reinforcements you actually

14 received, if you remember. If not, you needn't answer that question.

15 A. Yes, I do remember. First of all, we received a Tuba [phoen]

16 battery of rocket systems when Cimbaljevic and Ivanovic, two of my

17 soldiers, were killed. They were in Metohija for two days and returned.

18 After that, the PUB type. Then we received several Bofors type cannons

19 and a modified RR4 weapon.

20 Q. Tell me now, please: These reinforcements, the ones you received,

21 were they exclusively for anti-air action or air defence action?

22 A. Yes, they were exclusively air defence weapons, the -- for

23 targeting targets in the air at higher altitudes and with higher range.

24 But the Bofors type of cannon was exclusively designed for anti-aircraft

25 defence.

Page 45979

1 Q. Now, guns and cannons have their crews and so does this PUB

2 system; is that right? Now, did a single soldier from that crew that you

3 received as reinforcements take part in any other activities except for

4 the anti-aircraft defence systems?

5 A. No, never. They were exclusively reinforcements, and their

6 officers were there. Their commanding officers were there to command

7 them. They were sent with them and they were included into my unit, but

8 those soldiers were commanded over by the commanding officers of those

9 units, and they were not deployed for any other purpose except

10 anti-aircraft action, that is to say to target enemy planes.

11 Q. Thank you, General.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one more point, Mr. Robinson,

13 if I may. I received from the liaison officer a copy of this document

14 here. It is from Mr. Nice's office, from the OTP, and the title of it is

15 - I had it in the Serbian language - "Final report to the Prosecutor by

16 the committee established to review the NATO bombing campaign against the

17 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia." That's the title. And I'm sure you'll

18 recall that during the examination-in-chief of Mr. Djosan, I quoted

19 certain portions from that document which relate to NATO Air Force

20 operations around Djakovica, attacks on the convoy on the 14th of April,

21 1999, and I also quoted point 64, where it says NATO initially denied but

22 later acknowledged responsibility for this attack.

23 And I wanted to ask -- or, rather, I wanted to tender that report

24 into evidence.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 45980












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13 English transcripts.













Page 45981

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, anything to say on this?

2 MR. NICE: I think Your Honour had already expressed the tentative

3 view that you thought the document might contain material of interest, and

4 in light of that, I haven't focused on finding arguments to exclude it.

5 It seems to me that its only value would be if it's set out in a summary

6 way that was helpful to the Chamber some narrative of bombing by NATO

7 because, of course, the accused's case is that the bombing drove people

8 out. So to that extent, it might be of some assistance to you, and if it

9 contains such material, which it may do, I don't object.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Very well, we'll admit it.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

12 questions. Thank you, General.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honours, before the witness goes and just to tidy

14 something up, if I may. The Court asked about the reference to Nogavac in

15 my questioning.


17 MR. NICE: Whether it was in the indictment or not, and I

18 explained that it wasn't save for the limited extent we found, and I've

19 been premising my questions on questions of the accused.

20 The Court will find on day 431, between 11.11 and 48 seconds and

21 11.26 and 9 seconds the passages that stimulated my questioning. What

22 happened was that the accused asked questions about Nogavac, and that was

23 related to paragraph 63(a)(i). There was some intervention from the Court

24 on clarification of what was being asked, and so on. The accused then

25 turned to ask questions about shelling of Serbian villages -- of Kosovo

Page 45982

1 villages. The witness answered immediately with an explanation of Nogavac

2 and appeared to be focusing on the air attack on Nogavac, and the accused

3 then asked questions about Colonel Vukovic, a witness for the Prosecution

4 who had asserted that it was Serb planes that had dropped bombs on

5 Nogavac.

6 So it's not in the indictment but it was in the evidence, and it

7 may be that that passage of evidence is worth reviewing to see how this

8 witness dealt with it.

9 Finally, if this witness is by any chance going to remain in the

10 area of The Hague, it might be thought prudent to alert him to the

11 restriction of discussing evidence in particular with the witness whose

12 evidence has been interrupted as some similar issues will arise with him,

13 similar to those that we've been dealing with this morning.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I still don't understand why if there

15 was an allegation in the "As Seen, As Told" document that VJ planes had

16 bombed Nogavac, killing a hundred persons, why wasn't it in the

17 indictment?

18 MR. NICE: That I can't say, because I -- I wasn't the actual

19 drafter of the indictment, if the Court will remember. But, Your Honour,

20 there's a great many allegations beyond those in the indictment that could

21 have been made as to commission of crimes, and there are a very large

22 number of factual allegations or assertions that have been made by

23 witnesses that aren't in the indictment but that are nevertheless

24 admissible, either because they are part of the general background of the

25 picture.

Page 45983

1 As it happens or for some other reason, but as it happens here, it

2 appears both in "Under Orders" and also in the evidence of the witness to

3 whom the accused referred, that these were VJ bombs but it hadn't been

4 thought at the time appropriate to put it in the indictment.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to say that I'm not quite

9 clear on something here. It's right at the top of our screens just now.

10 It says that there was a question, that I asked questions about Colonel

11 Vukovic who was a Prosecution witness and who said that the Serb planes

12 targeted, et cetera. First of all, Colonel Vukovic is testifying now --

13 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... at the time it was

14 Ali Hoti was the witness. I apologise for having spoken inaccurately in

15 reviewing the position. The accused referred to the Prosecution witness

16 Ali Hoti who he summarised as having said that he believed that on the 1st

17 of April Serb planes dropped bombs on Nogavac.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked that question of Colonel

20 Vukovic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't asked that question.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked Colonel Vukovic the question

23 and he explained to us that NATO planes had bombed Nogavac, and here we

24 even have a map from the testimony of Colonel Delic which shows F16R, that

25 is to say that particular plane that was used to target Nogavac on the 1st

Page 45984

1 and 2nd of April, 1999.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic. I consider we have

3 dealt with that point sufficiently.

4 General, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to

5 the Tribunal to testify. I remind you that you are not to discuss your

6 evidence with any person who is likely to testify here, and I have in mind

7 in particular the witness who will be testifying right after you, Colonel

8 Vukovic.

9 May we have a separate number for the NATO document that the

10 accused has just tendered.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be D323.

12 MR. NICE: And the full version of the diary and the English

13 translation.

14 JUDGE KWON: That should be replaced or --

15 MR. NICE: I'm not going to make proposals for the Registry and

16 Chambers because I don't know what is best, most secure as a method of

17 dealing with exhibits. It could either replace the original tab and all

18 go in there together or it could be given a new number, as is likely to be

19 most convenient.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: May we have a new number, then, for that

21 Prosecution Exhibit.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll replace the previous tab with the new

25 document, but only those parts that were referred to; and those parts that

Page 45985

1 are not translated will be marked for identification.

2 Let the witness Colonel Vukovic be brought in.

3 [The witness entered court]


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Colonel, you remain subject to the declaration

7 you made.

8 We'll sit, in light of the witness's health condition, for one

9 hour and then break, and resume after the 20-minute interval.

10 Mr. Milosevic.

11 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vukovic.

13 A. Good morning, Mr. Milosevic.

14 Q. In paragraph 63 we have allegations of deportation, and paragraph

15 66 relates to murder, but they both allege the same. I will tell you what

16 both of them say. Namely, it says that on the 27th of April --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could we please have a precise reference.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the interpreters are asking, and

19 so am I, for a precise reference.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 63(a)(i) and 66(i) relate to what

21 I'm just quoting, namely that: "Forces of the FRY and Serbia launched a

22 great offensive in Carragojs and Trava, intending to expel the population

23 from that area." And the text is identical in paragraph 63 and 64.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. What can you say, Colonel, about these allegations?

Page 45986

1 A. I can say that they are not true; namely, that there was no large

2 offensive. I engaged only a smaller part of my unit: Three rifle

3 platoons, one platoon of military police, a medical unit, and part of the

4 communications unit. All in all, about a hundred men.

5 I know that my neighbour on the right wing had 40 to 50 men, not

6 more. My neighbour on the left wing, Combat Group 2, could have had about

7 a hundred men from -- that was from the 125th Brigade. So we cannot talk

8 about a large offensive.

9 Our immediate task -- in fact, security was provided by MUP on the

10 Djakovica-Pec road. I don't know how many men they had engaged, but it

11 cannot be said by any means that it was a large offensive.

12 Incidentally, the term "offensive" can be used and makes sense

13 only when strategic groups are engaged.

14 As for this expulsion of civilians, I have already spoken about

15 that. I said that the army never expelled the population, and that is

16 true of this case as well. What was going on was an anti-terrorist action

17 and that alone. And I can remind you that on the 29th of April, a ground

18 part of the aggression took place on the Kosare axis. In parallel with

19 that, terrorist forces reappeared in our rear, specifically in the broader

20 area of Racaj village. That is why the corps command issued a decision to

21 organise and mount this anti-terrorist action for the sole purpose of

22 neutralising terrorist activity in our rear, to secure safe passage along

23 roads, including Djakovica-Junik road in this case and Djakovica-Pec.

24 Therefore, the sole purpose of that operation was to neutralise

25 Siptar terrorist forces.

Page 45987

1 Q. Are you aware if during that anti-terrorist action there was any

2 expulsion of civilians?

3 A. No, I don't know of any expulsions at all. There were refugees on

4 the 27th as well as on the 28th and partially on the 29th of April, but

5 they were fleeing from Pec municipality. Namely, along that road passing

6 by my units people were passing from Pec, and there was no combat activity

7 in that area at the time except for NATO airstrikes.

8 Q. Where were you at that time on the 27th and the 28th of April?

9 A. I think it's more convenient to show that on the map, if you allow

10 me. The map for that May operation exists, although it's not from the

11 period when that anti-terrorist action took place. The map was done

12 subsequently, but it reflects the actual state of affairs.

13 I have it under number 21. I have a black and white copy only,

14 and it would be better to have a colour map because there are many things

15 that we can't see on the black and white version.

16 MR. NICE: If we could have the corresponding Delic, I imagine it

17 is, exhibit number, we may be able to find an original in colour.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the map was

19 introduced through General Djosan, because part of his unit is shown here

20 as well.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is among Colonel Vukovic's

22 exhibits on the list of admitted evidence, a number 21, and it was

23 introduced through General Djosan under tab 29.1.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 320. You're welcome.

Page 45988

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Have you found the map?

4 A. Yes, yes. The map has been placed on the ELMO. Here in the

5 southern part you see the disposition of my battalion partly in defence.

6 We have explained this map before.

7 Part of my unit was in the blockade line on the left bank of Renik

8 river, along the fringes of Korenica village. Posavoja [phoen] Meja-Orize

9 village, about a kilometre away, and trig point 421, around village Kodra

10 and Kikes. As I said, three rifle platoons and one platoon of the

11 military police. My command post for that anti-terrorist action was in an

12 abandoned house on the road between Djakovica town and Korenica village,

13 and that's where I was on the 27th and the 28th of April. Some smaller

14 forces, part of my unit, remained there also on the 29th and the 30th to

15 control the territory.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to draw your attention that

17 the witness did not mention any village called Posavoja. I don't know how

18 this came to be recorded. He was just explaining where his forces were at

19 the time, and I would like this to be corrected.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Colonel, further on in the same paragraph, it says that a large

22 number of members of the forces of the FRY and Serbia were used and

23 several check points were set up. Throughout that day, villagers left

24 their homes under direct threat from the forces of the FRY and Serbia and

25 joined several convoys of refugees.

Page 45989

1 A. I've already answered that question. We did not engage large

2 forces. In fact, in this anti-terrorist action, the army did not have any

3 assignment or task and did not set up any checkpoints. We can see on the

4 map, and I know from remembering my task, that it was our assignment to

5 take up positions on the line of blockade and not to allow terrorists to

6 pull out along two axes. One axis was Racaj village, Korenica, and

7 further on towards the border with Albania. And the second axis was from

8 Racaj village towards Djakovica town. That's at least the task that my

9 unit received.

10 So there were no checkpoints. The only checkpoint was permanently

11 in Brekovac village on the bridge at the very entrance to Djakovica. It

12 was a mixed checkpoint. MUP members checked civilians and MUP members,

13 whereas my military police organs exclusively checked members of the army

14 and the military traffic that took place, according to the assignment.

15 Q. You have explained that. But is it true that villagers left their

16 homes under direct threat from the forces of the FRY and Serbia?

17 A. I think I've said that as well: There were no threats issued, nor

18 did anyone force these villagers to leave their homes.

19 I can tell you by way of an example. It's not on the map, there

20 is -- there is a hamlet Sufi Dol near Korenica village. I can't remember

21 the name of that man, but his son is Ranko, member of the MUP. He is a

22 fireman but engaged in the MUP. In his house there were ten Siptar

23 families from among his neighbours taking shelter there. So ten families.

24 No single Siptar family had less than ten members, so you can imagine the

25 total number. And they said the terrorists had told them to leave the

Page 45990

1 area. They sought assistance and help from that policeman, and they

2 stayed with him all the time until the 28th when this area had been

3 cleansed from terrorist forces, after which they returned to their homes,

4 and I know that they were there at least until the 14th of June when I

5 left the area with my unit.

6 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Further on it is alleged that in Meja,

7 Korenica, and Meja-Orize from a mass of fleeing villagers, a large and

8 as-yet undetermined number of Kosovo Albanian civilian males were

9 separated and abducted. Many of them were summarily executed and many of

10 them are still missing.

11 Do you know anything about this? Is this true?

12 A. This is not true, and the allegations are not accurate at all. I

13 don't know who was executed and how. If you have a list or something,

14 maybe you can tell me the gender of those people, the age brackets, or

15 maybe I could be of some assistance. But I assert that the army did not

16 separate men from women. They didn't kill anybody. They did nothing

17 apart from the activity targeted at terrorists.

18 Q. It says further on that: "Seven people who were last seen around

19 Meja on the 27th of April, 1999, were later found --" In fact: "Identity

20 documents pertaining to at least seven persons who were last seen at Meja

21 on the 27th of April, 1999, were found on bodies exhumed from a

22 clandestine mass grave located in Batajnica. "

23 A. Well, if you have a list, maybe I can give you an answer.

24 Q. Well, here in the appendix there is a schedule of persons killed

25 in Meja whose names are known, killed on the 27th of April. That's on

Page 45991

1 page 56 of the Serbian version of this amended indictment.

2 And I would like this page 56 to be placed on the overhead

3 projector.

4 Do you know anything about this?

5 A. [Previous translation continues]... in English.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 56 is in Serbian. That is Schedule

7 1, or Schedule L -- I. I, okay.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So these are the persons killed in Meja in this anti-terrorist

10 action that you referred to, according to the allegations from this

11 indictment.

12 A. I suppose this is their age.

13 Q. Look below. It is written in English. That's Meja.

14 A. Mr. Milosevic, we can see that except for two children aged 14 and

15 15, all the rest are able-bodied men fit for military service. If these

16 men were killed, if these persons were killed, they could have been killed

17 only in combat.

18 Incidentally, these names don't mean anything to me, but I'm just

19 looking at the age bracket.

20 Q. So you assert that they could have been killed only in combat?

21 A. In this area, only in combat, because generally speaking we were

22 exposed to a lot of terrorist activity, and we responded in kind.

23 Q. Have you ever heard the term that I just referred to, that some

24 men were executed? I'm not going to add "summarily," or not, but it says

25 summarily executed here. Have you ever heard of anyone being executed?

Page 45992












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 45993

1 A. That is nonsense, pure nonsense, especially those mass executions.

2 I can guarantee there was no such thing, certainly not in this area, and I

3 am not aware that they happened anywhere else. In my unit it certainly

4 couldn't have happened.

5 Q. On that day did your unit carry out any transfer of civilians?

6 A. We had no contact with civilians except for early in the morning,

7 around 8.30, and I can describe you -- to you that instance.

8 Early in the morning, around 8.00 or 8.30, at least it was 8.30

9 when I received the report, here in Korenica village a platoon commander

10 noticed a group of civilians, perhaps 50 or 60 of them, and he sent a

11 patrol, which means two soldiers. There is a cemetery nearby. I'm not

12 sure whether you will be able to see it on the map.

13 So he sent two soldiers to see where those civilians were from and

14 to tell them to go home, to tell them they shouldn't be there. And when

15 the soldiers approached, when they were about 20 metres away from the

16 group, fire was suddenly opened at them and a bomb was thrown, a grenade

17 was thrown. Two soldiers were wounded, one more seriously, one less

18 seriously.

19 The platoon commander sent reinforcements, and the terrorists

20 later probably withdrew towards Korenica village. I know that later,

21 because I sent an ambulance to pull out those wounded soldiers and take

22 them to the military hospital.

23 The platoon commander let the civilians pass towards Renik river

24 and told them to go towards the town of Djakovica because it was the

25 safest place and there were certainly no terrorists there. And that was

Page 45994

1 the only case on that day - and that goes for the 28th as well - that we

2 had any contact with the civilian population.

3 Along the road from Junik to Djakovica throughout the day both on

4 the 27th and the 28th, civilians were passing by us but we didn't stop

5 them and we didn't check their IDs or anything because we didn't have that

6 mission.

7 There were, on the contrary, soldiers who would give them some

8 food and water, because there were elderly people among them and there

9 were many children, and they were exhausted from the walking. But apart

10 from that, there was certainly no other contact.

11 The platoon on the left wing moved during the night about 150 to

12 200 metres. This is north of the road between Junik and Djakovica.

13 Precisely for those reasons, namely, that civilians who were passing by

14 would not come across any military people.

15 Q. When you said now that the group opened fire at your unit, did

16 your unit fire then --

17 A. No.

18 Q. -- towards that group?

19 A. No. Only for the sake of the safety of the civilians. And I

20 already said that two of my soldiers were wounded during the first attack.

21 Of course, the commander needed about ten minutes in order to get

22 closer with the reinforcements, and by then the terrorists managed to

23 withdraw to the first houses, whereas the civilians were running towards

24 the military. That speaks in itself.

25 Q. That they were not afraid of the army, you mean?

Page 45995

1 A. Yes, that they were not afraid of the army.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. As for what happened in

3 Meja, and I'm not sure because I haven't got it marked here, Mr. Robinson,

4 the statement made by Mr. Vukovic, which is number 22 in the previously

5 admitted evidence, you can check your own list, number 22, I know that

6 this statement --

7 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... exhibit number

8 because then it will be easier to find. 22 on a list. If the accused can

9 give us the original exhibit number, otherwise I'll look it up.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic --

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was in tab 31 in Milos Djosan's

12 exhibits. 30.1. And that is Colonel Vukovic's statement, and it has to

13 do with what his unit did on the 27th and the 28th. This is 320, and the

14 tab is 30.1.

15 Mr. Robinson, I'm just checking whether this was admitted into

16 evidence. It was marked for identification and to be admitted at a

17 subsequent date. That is the statement that Colonel Vukovic gave in

18 relation to what the unit was doing on the 27th and on the 28th. And

19 that's precisely what he was speaking of now.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The exhibit number for Djosan is 321, just for

21 correction.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It's admitted, yes.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 45996

1 Q. Beqe Beqaj was a witness who testified here and he said that in

2 August 1998 the villagers of Racaj and other places first left the village

3 when the police arrived there and in the neighbouring villages. The page

4 number is 9116 and 9117. And then on the 14th of April, 1999, the army

5 and the MUP arrived in Racaj again and the witness says that they ordered

6 the villagers to leave their homes. Is that correct? What do you know

7 about that?

8 A. The latter part is not correct but first part is correct. I can

9 talk about this because I participated in this anti-terrorist action. At

10 the beginning of August 1998, and that can be see on this map, although

11 these markings do not date back to that period, when the terrorist

12 strongholds were broken up - and these were probably the strongest in the

13 area of Kosovo and Metohija, that is to say Smonica, and Nec - an

14 anti-terrorist action was continued at Nec, Ramoc, Racaj, Pacaj, Dolosaj.

15 In this anti-terrorist action, part of my unit took part as well.

16 In the early morning, before the action started, a villager from

17 Ramoc, who saw that the army is getting ready to act near Nec, he walked

18 up to the soldiers and asked to speak to the commander. So he was brought

19 to my command post. What he said to me here was that the terrorists even

20 two days before that had left the village of Ramoc and that after the

21 terrorists left, the villagers collected the weapons and handed over to

22 the organs of the Ministry of the Interior. The terrorists forced them to

23 buy rifles at the price of 200 Deutschmark at that, and there were even

24 cases when they were beaten by terrorists, that is to say those who didn't

25 want to buy weapons.

Page 45997

1 He guaranteed to me that there weren't any armed terrorists in the

2 village. And then together with him, of course, the army, in its firing

3 deployment, walked up to the village, realised that there was no fighting

4 taking place, that there were no attacks at the unit and that there

5 weren't any armed people in the village, although there were dug-outs and

6 trenches around the village.

7 This villager, as a matter of fact, took us to the area between

8 Ramoc and Korenica, and in two places there, there were anti-tank mines.

9 So we even marked them. He didn't know about the hamlet of Kocaj, though,

10 whether there were any terrorists in it or not. I'm saying that the

11 entire village of Racaj was populated and that the villagers were there.

12 Q. Let's just get this clear, Colonel. You said the first part is

13 partly correct. What did you mean?

14 A. That the army was there. But first I'm telling about the village

15 of Ramoc, and this is a villager from Racaj. I will get to that, if you

16 allow me.

17 Q. Please go ahead.

18 A. From the hamlet of Kocaj fire was opened. Terrorists fired at my

19 unit. They were neutralised very soon. I think that this went on for

20 about ten minutes only and they probably fled to the forest here and

21 towards Racaj.

22 When part of my unit came to the village of Racaj from where this

23 witness is, the witness who gave the statement, there weren't any

24 villagers there. In the village of Racaj, the military police unit had

25 already arrived, those who were active in the area, but I do know that

Page 45998

1 lists were found of an entire unit. Photographs were found of men in

2 uniform and armed. In one house we found a big warehouse of food supplies

3 and medical supplies. A completely new cellar had been dug and it was

4 well masked with a new door too.

5 On the basis of all of this, I concluded that in this area there

6 was a large terrorist group and that they were getting ready for a longer

7 stay in the area.

8 That is what I wanted to say about the military there and the

9 villagers leaving the village. However, according to the information I

10 received then from my colleagues from the military police, they left

11 before the action started, which was only to be expected. It's the normal

12 thing to do.

13 Then my unit returned to Ramoc and they were there for about ten

14 days in order to keep the territory under their control. There weren't

15 any incidents with civilians whatsoever. As a matter of fact, my own

16 medical doctor examined civilians and gave them some medication. Of

17 course, they returned the favour by giving food, whatever they had, at

18 that point in time.

19 Q. All right. What you explained just now had to do with 1998;

20 right?

21 A. Yes, 1998.

22 Q. And now I'm asking you about what this same witness said, namely

23 that on the 14th of April the army and the MUP came to the village of

24 Racaj, and then he says that they ordered the villagers to leave their

25 homes.

Page 45999

1 A. Well, the soldiers were certainly not in the village of Racaj on

2 the 14th of April. The biggest combat unit in this village was my

3 battalion, and I know for sure that not a single soldier, let alone the

4 entire unit, were in the mentioned village on that day. So that is

5 absolutely incorrect.

6 Q. All right. So we're not going to dwell on it any longer.

7 Xhevahire Syla, a witness here, stated --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Have I got this correct, that that answer, which

9 lasted for several minutes, was all about 1998 in answer to a question

10 about 1999, or did I miss something?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, just partly, because the

12 question pertained to Beqe Beqaj's statement, who said that in August

13 1998, the population of Racaj left the village on account of the military

14 and then that the army came in again on the 14th of April, 1999. So it

15 pertains to both.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Xhevahire Syla, a witness here, stated that on the 14th of April

18 mixed Serb forces entered Nivokaz, municipality of Djakovica. That they

19 entered Albanian houses, giving people five minutes to leave them, and

20 that is how a convoy was established that went to Djakovica, and that the

21 police attacked some people who were in the convoy and told them to go to

22 Albania. They were not allowed to leave the route that they took to

23 Prizren, and that was a roundabout road. And then she says that they were

24 stopped near Bistrazin on a bridge there and that the convoy was hit by a

25 NATO bomb, and soon after, that three low-flying aircraft with Serb flags

Page 46000

1 bombed the convoy seven times and killed 70 to 80 persons.

2 I've told you everything now, everything that she said happened on

3 the 14th of April.

4 A. As for the village of Nivokaz, I was not there then so I cannot

5 comment upon this. As for the rest, it is untrue to a large extent. It

6 is correct that at that time the NATO aeroplanes targeted convoys of

7 civilians near -- in the village of Meja, Bistrazin, Rogovo, and Slatzkoj

8 [phoen] and near the Trzin bridge. They started around 1400 hours and

9 finished around 1500 hours.

10 As for our aircraft, well, at that time they weren't flying at

11 all. This is the 14th of April. They were not flying for well-known

12 reasons: Because there was total supremacy of NATO in the airspace, and

13 truth to tell, there was nothing that could have been flying anyway.

14 Now, it's quite illogical, this statement of hers. How could she

15 see three low-flying aircraft with Serb flags? When a plane is targeting,

16 it is flying at a speed of at least 500 kilometres per hour. If an

17 aircraft is flying that fast, you cannot even see it as it flies away, let

18 alone see details of that kind on the aircraft itself.

19 Secondly, any normal person, when being bombed by an air force - I

20 mean, even a soldier whose profession this is - the first thing that a

21 person does is duck, hide in a shelter, rather than look at aeroplanes.

22 This is true, though, that the NATO Air Force precisely and

23 intentionally targeted columns of refugees and that in this convoy there

24 were many casualties. Many people were killed and many wounded. Over 80

25 persons killed and several hundred wounded.

Page 46001

1 I have a book here that testifies about that crime. If you wish,

2 I can show it here. Among other things, you can see there that the pilot

3 on the aircraft was ordered to fire at the column of civilians. If you

4 wish, I can show that to you.

5 Q. Please go ahead.

6 A. This is a book, "Traces of Inhumanity," and it was published

7 towards the end of 1999. In all fairness, the photographs are black and

8 white but it's better that they're this way because this is so gory, even

9 for us who were there in the area. It is terrible for us to see it again.

10 This witness talked about Bistrazin but first it started in Meja

11 around 14.30 hours. It can be seen very clearly that this was a column of

12 civilians, refugees on tractors, that there is no military technical

13 equipment.

14 On the next page you can see the effects of the attack of the NATO

15 Air Force. I can tell you straight away that first aid was provided, as

16 well as transportation of the wounded and the dead, and that was a very

17 difficult thing to do. It was first done by the police units and then the

18 army came in too.

19 Now, these pictures show terrible scenes from Bistrazin. Here, on

20 page 86, there is a conversation that was recorded between the fighter

21 plane pilot and his command post in the airspace.

22 Q. Please read what it says.

23 A. "Good day, Charlie Bravo." That is the F16 pilot introducing

24 himself. "I am at position 10. Below there is no movement. Request

25 information on red MiGs." There is a reference to our planes. "Charlie

Page 46002

1 Bravo AWACS Michael --" or rather, AWACS in parenthesis -- "go to the

2 north-west, direction Prizren-Djakovica. No red MiGs in the air. Okay.

3 I'm going to 3.000 feet." That's about 1.000 metres.

4 "Michael to Charlie Bravo: You are getting a reinforcement in ten

5 minutes. There is going to be something interesting south of Djakovica.

6 "Charlie Bravo to Mike: We are getting out of the clouds. I

7 cannot see anything else.

8 "Michael to Charlie Bravo: Go further on to the north. The

9 course is 280.

10 "Charlie Bravo to Mother: Keep 3.000 feet. Below me is a column

11 of automobiles, some kind of tractors. What is this? Request

12 instructions.

13 "Mother to Charlie Bravo: Can you see the tanks? I repeat,

14 where are the tanks?

15 "Charlie Bravo to Mother: I see tractors. I guess the red ones

16 didn't camouflage tanks as tractors.

17 "Mother to Charlie Bravo: What kind of strange convoy is this,

18 what kind of civilians, dammit? All of this is of Serb making. Destroy

19 the target.

20 "Charlie Bravo to Mother: What am I supposed to destroy,

21 tractors, ordinary cars? I repeat, I cannot see any tanks. I request

22 further instructions.

23 "Mother to Charlie Bravo: This is a military target, a

24 completely legitimate military target. Destroy the target. I repeat:

25 Destroy the target.

Page 46003

1 "Charlie Bravo to Mother: I understand. I'm launching."

2 And even the spokesman of NATO, the liar Jamie Shea, under

3 pressure from the public, had to admit that NATO committed this crime.

4 But it is only natural that he invented straight away that phrase

5 "collateral damage." And I claim that this -- this was targeted

6 intentionally. This objective was targeted intentionally, and this can be

7 seen from the orders received by the pilot.

8 Q. Thank you, Colonel. We're moving to the next witness now.

9 Zumani [phoen] said that on the 14th of April Serb soldiers

10 entered the village of Dobros. First of all, do you know where the

11 village of Dobros lies and were any of your units in the village of

12 Dobros?

13 A. I know where the village of Dobros is, and indeed I know the

14 overall area of Kosovo and Metohija, but my unit was far away from that

15 village, so that I cannot be of assistance to you when it comes to that

16 village because I wasn't there.

17 Q. Now, we're not dealing with that village, but what she says is

18 when they passed by Djakovica and reached close to the Bistrazin bridge

19 the witness heard an explosion and saw that smoke was coming from the

20 convoy that was in front of her and that there were bodies at the place of

21 the explosion and a tractor was destroyed too by the bombs that fell from

22 the air. Is that what happened?

23 A. That's what I've just been talking about. They weren't bombs,

24 they were rockets from F16 fighter planes, to be accurate, but a civilian,

25 of course, doesn't differentiate between bombs and rockets. So that is

Page 46004












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 46005

1 precisely what I was talking about a moment ago.

2 Q. Very well. Now, Colonel, count 53 of the indictment relating to

3 Kosovo states that I planned, incited, ordered, instigated, ordered,

4 committed, or otherwise aided and abetted in a deliberate and widespread

5 or systematic campaign of terror and violence directed at Kosovo Albanian

6 civilians living in Kosovo in the FRY. And that with the help of forces

7 from the FRY and Serbia, was executed acting at the direction with the aim

8 of having a substantial portion of the Kosovo Albanian population expelled

9 from Kosovo and establish Serb control in the province.

10 That's what it says in that paragraph and under that charge of the

11 indictment.

12 Do you know -- did you know then or do you know today, have you

13 ever heard about any of this, any sort of campaign, plan, goal or anything

14 of that kind which could even in small detail resemble what I've just read

15 out?

16 A. I am not aware of any of this. I don't know about any of that,

17 nor did I ever see or hear about a plan of any kind. Otherwise, let me

18 say that the army at that time was performing its duties prescribed by the

19 constitution, and that was to defend the sovereignty of its territory, the

20 independence and constitutional order of the country. So that I have

21 never heard of any plan of this kind, or any other assignment at all, nor

22 did my army or my unit ever receive a plan of that kind or execute any

23 assignment which would be linked to some sort of plan of this kind.

24 Q. All right. Now, in paragraph 55 it says that the forces of the

25 FRY and Serbia, in a deliberate and widespread or systematic manner

Page 46006

1 forcibly expelled and internally displaced hundreds of thousands of Kosovo

2 Albanians from their homes across the entire province of Kosovo, creating

3 an atmosphere of fear and oppression through the use of force, threats of

4 force and acts of violence.

5 Tell me, please, is that true? Did you, did you the army, did

6 any of you ever hear of an idea similar to this?

7 A. That is absolutely not true, not correct. My command post was for

8 a time in the area of the Brekovac village, which is at the very entrance

9 to Djakovica. And in that particular village, at my command post there,

10 there were a lot of Gypsies, there were several Serb families, but a lot

11 of Siptars as well. And there was a family living there, if I remember

12 correctly, Cehu was their name, and his nephew Aqir Cehu, or cousin, was

13 one of the local commanders of the terrorist organisation the so-called

14 Kosovo Liberation Army. And he was a loyal citizen, so we didn't mind

15 having him there regardless of the fact that his cousin was even a KLA

16 commander, terrorist commander. He didn't bother us.

17 And then there was Moglica family. Several houses belonging to go

18 that household. I can't quote the exact names of the family, the first

19 names, but I can provide lists of Siptars living in Brekovac, for example.

20 Furthermore, had we had the intention of expelling anybody

21 whatsoever, well, it would be logical to suppose that we'd do that from

22 the area of defence first of all, from our line of defence.

23 And let me tell you this: The population left exclusively the

24 places that were being bombed out of the fear of the bombing, and this

25 Asifiza [phoen] crossed over to the village of Moglica, and they proved --

Page 46007

1 it was proved that they made the right decision, because that village was

2 later targeted with bombs.

3 Q. Why was it bombed later?

4 A. Mr. Milosevic, during the war there was not a single unit ever

5 there. I used this road exclusively when I toured part of the units at

6 their positions. And it was also used by vehicles, for example, of

7 individuals who went to fetch supplies from Djakovica and that area. And

8 I assume that they targeted it because all the other settlements or

9 inhabited areas is where the population had stayed on, and they wanted to

10 get them moving for an alleged humanitarian catastrophe. Petrusan, Doj

11 [phoen], Krusevac, all those outlying villages. But Bistrazin is the

12 largest place. They stayed there throughout the war. There were never

13 any incidents there. There was just one case, for example, of theft when

14 a tractor was taken unlawfully, and the owner, the lady owner of the

15 tractor turned up and said that the army had taken off her tractor, but we

16 managed to find her tractor for her and return it to her. So that was

17 only incident that happened like that, that is to say an incident

18 involving the civilian population.

19 There was another case that was termed a war crime where a soldier

20 at a checkpoint killed a civilian, but later on we were not able to -- he

21 was certainly not from these villages. We established that later on. But

22 the civilian was unarmed and the soldier was arrested, an investigation

23 was conducted, and all the other steps taken that are usually taken in

24 cases of that kind. And the -- there was a criminal file filed against

25 the soldier, and he was turned over to a military court, a court-martial.

Page 46008

1 And I have the criminal report with me against that soldier. If you want

2 me to show it to you, I'll be happy to do so.

3 Q. Well, I think what you've just told us will be enough.

4 Now, paragraph 56 says that throughout Kosovo forces of the FRY

5 and Serbia engaged in a deliberate and widespread or systematic campaign

6 of destruction of property owned by Kosovo Albanian civilians by

7 widespread shelling of towns and villages. So a deliberate campaign of

8 destruction of property, shelling of towns and villages, the burning and

9 destruction of property, including homes, farms, businesses, cultural

10 monuments and religious sites, and the destruction of personal property.

11 Was that part of your activities in any sense whatsoever?

12 A. No. Quite certainly this wasn't part of my activities. My

13 activities and the activities of my unit I described yesterday or, rather,

14 the previous working day. I testified about all that. And otherwise it

15 would be senseless to shell towns. In all large inhabited areas,

16 especially in towns, you had your own forces there. So who, anybody in

17 his right mind, would shell a town where his own men or his own units were

18 located?

19 Shelling in the broader sense of the word, rocketing and bombing,

20 was exclusively done by the air force, by NATO air forces.

21 I did have one case where houses were burnt by a soldier without

22 any cause. Two houses were set on fire to the east of this map in a place

23 called Damjane, but steps were taken to apprehend the perpetrator straight

24 away, and cases like that didn't repeat themselves.

25 Q. Very well, Colonel. When you said that this was not done by unit,

Page 46009

1 do you have awareness of any single unit of the Yugoslav army engaging in

2 violence of this kind; shelling of towns and villages, destruction of

3 property, and so on and so forth?

4 A. No, I'm not aware of any of that. I don't know of anything like

5 that happening. Had anything like that happened, I would have to have

6 known because I was in that position and in that locality, and otherwise,

7 I'm sure you know, everything that I'm saying I'm saying from my own

8 experience because I was constantly in the field, on the terrain. And

9 furthermore, I received regular information from my neighbouring units. I

10 would receive reports from the superior command. I would receive reports

11 from my own subordinate units, so that it -- anything like that is

12 impossible. It could not have happened without me knowing about it.

13 Q. Now, is it true what is claimed here, that the forces of the army

14 accompanied -- escorted the expelled Albanians to the border because they

15 wanted to keep their movements under control in that way, up to the

16 border?

17 A. I've already told you five or six times that there were no

18 expulsed Siptars. Those people who did leave left alone of their own --

19 if they were expelled, then they were expelled exclusively by the

20 terrorists. They forced them to leave. And they were assisted by NATO

21 forces with deliberate targeting and destruction of civilian facilities.

22 Now, as far as control is concerned, I can speak about my own

23 zone, my own area, where I said that the Cafa Prusit crossing point,

24 border crossing point, which was in the area of responsibility of my unit,

25 that there was an obstruction that had been set up in the infantry sense

Page 46010

1 and in the armoured vehicle sense. And in-depth along that road to the

2 left and right of the road obstacles had been set up. Anti-air --

3 anti-armoured mines. I'm sorry, my speech is getting worse. But

4 anti-armour minefields were set up, and that means that a mine well had

5 been dug up, a large amount of explosives planted, linked up with the

6 electrical network, and for security reasons, for the safety of the

7 civilians and population during those five days when they were crossing

8 across that border crossing, the army escorted them to the border so that

9 they should not move to the left or right and wouldn't lose their lives on

10 our territory by stepping into the minefield. Otherwise, there was no

11 other expulsion or escorting or placing them under control. Why would I

12 maintain control over their movements, the movements of civilians if they

13 were not armed in the firing positions of my unit? That is nonsense.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take -- Mr. Milosevic, we'll take the break

15 now. Twenty minutes.

16 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Milosevic.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I continue, Mr. Robinson, I

20 wish to ask that the book the witness used while answering one of the

21 questions titled "The Trails of Inhumanity," from which he showed

22 photographs and read an exchange between the pilot and the command centre

23 when a civilian target was bombed, I wish that book to be tendered into

24 evidence.

25 MR. NICE: Your Honours, you know what position I take on the

Page 46011

1 transcript, in the absence of being satisfied that it's a reliable

2 transcript, it's not something I can cross-examine to and I'm not sure the

3 book would be of any value. The Chamber knows, of course, the position of

4 the Prosecution already on this particular event. It's not challenged

5 that it's a NATO event. I would invite the Chamber to defer consideration

6 of this as an exhibit until I've been able to take, if I can, a final

7 position on whether I accept the evidence or not. Otherwise, you're

8 putting in, allowing in something that is untestable hearsay where had --

9 JUDGE KWON: And can't identify the source of the information.

10 MR. NICE: Can't identify the source, and all sorts of things,

11 but --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you say that it may very well be that you may

13 accept it.

14 MR. NICE: I certainly accept the events in part because it's not

15 been challenged that this is a NATO event. It's a question of what if

16 anything -- what weight, if anything -- if any, should attach to that

17 alleged transcript of the conversation between the pilot and the base

18 control. That's something that I can't deal with at the moment.

19 MR. KAY: I think it might be in the NATO report. I don't have my

20 copy with me as I've just filed it, but I think it's in the NATO report.

21 JUDGE KWON: I was about to ask the witness if he knows anything

22 about the source of information, the conversation between Charlie Bravo

23 and Mother.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, the source is intelligence

25 gathered by the unit, namely part of the 52nd Company for electronic

Page 46012

1 surveillance and anti-electronic action, which was partly based in

2 Djakovica. So this is a recording of radio traffic between the pilot and

3 the command plane. Also, this conversation was broadcast on several TV

4 channels.

5 JUDGE KWON: Do you mean that it was recorded by the brigade

6 commanded by General Djosan?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The 52nd Company for electronic

8 surveillance was a unit of the corps, unit of the Pristina Corps, and it

9 so happened that one part of that unit was based in Djakovica.

10 JUDGE KWON: Then you should have had the original raw material

11 which contains the very recording.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, I did not receive any

13 material from that company. It's logical that all such material was

14 forwarded to the corps command, to the intelligence unit, where they

15 process all this information, and make it available to other units. The

16 chain of command is such that --

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the circumstances, we'll defer the question of

19 the admission of this document until later. Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

20 You're finished?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. Just a

22 minute. I have a couple of questions left.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You explained a moment ago how you let the civilians pass through.

25 Several days ago, you told us that you tried to persuade civilians who

Page 46013

1 were on their way to go across the border to stay, and you said that

2 villagers from some villages near the border had the goodwill to receive

3 them, to put them up.

4 A. Yes. I spoke about more than that. Here is the village of Zub.

5 It was possible to reach that village by motor vehicles, because further

6 on, towards the border crossing, the road was impassable in several points

7 due to obstacles placed. There were about 30 elderly persons and small

8 children among them, and the villagers wanted to receive them, but they

9 didn't want any of that. They insisted that they had to go. And whenever

10 we asked them why they had to go, they said they were afraid of the

11 bombing in the first place. There were also some people who said they

12 were afraid of the terrorists. And on the basis of that, I made my

13 conclusions.

14 But I can tell you that a systematic campaign of intimidation of

15 civilians was going on, and I can show you some of the leaflets that were

16 being thrown from NATO aeroplanes, and they were meant for the civilian

17 population, certainly not for the soldiers of my unit, because they had no

18 effect on the soldiers of my unit and, as far as I know, no effect on any

19 other unit. Because whoever sees this will understand such -- will

20 understand very clearly that such messages can frighten only civilians,

21 because the army exists, among other things, to engage in combat, whereas

22 civilians are neither trained nor prepared for that.

23 Look at this. You will see a strategic bomber, B52. They were

24 also used to strike at my unit and the rest of the brigade as well in a

25 massive way. And it says -- you can read this. You can see a black bird,

Page 46014

1 which is a nickname for this strategic bomber. You can see this black

2 bird dropping bombs, and it says: "Thousands of bombs. The will, power,

3 and support of the world are there to drop them tirelessly on your unit."

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Colonel.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Let us go on.

7 A. There's this one too: "Horrible death. Don't wait for me," et

8 cetera.

9 Q. You say these leaflets produced a strong effect on the population.

10 A. A very strong effect, but exclusively on civilians. They had no

11 effect whatsoever on my unit, on my soldiers. I even expected that a

12 power -- a great power like NATO could think of something better to

13 frighten our army, but no.

14 Q. Colonel, paragraph 61 is dedicated to the seizure and destruction

15 of personal identity documents and licenses of vehicles. Have you heard

16 of anything like that?

17 A. I heard about cases when documents were seized, but let me say

18 immediately that the army never did that, that it was nonsense. It made

19 no sense to take somebody's papers from them because everybody, every

20 citizen -- every citizen of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, if they

21 lose their IDs, can get another, can get a replacement. So it makes no

22 sense to seize somebody's documents. There is a perfectly regular

23 procedure to obtain a duplicate, a replacement.

24 I heard of only one case that happened on the border crossing of

25 Vrbnica --

Page 46015

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ordinarily how long would it take to get a

2 duplicate?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A duplicate of what? I don't

4 understand.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You just said that it would make no sense for the

6 army to seize these identity documents because it would be relatively easy

7 to obtain duplicates. I'm asking how long would it take to get a

8 duplicate, to obtain a duplicate?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry I didn't understand you

10 the first time. There is a regulation of the Ministry of the Interior.

11 The longest time you can wait for a new passport is three to five days, I

12 believe. Don't take my word for it, though, not exactly. For a personal

13 ID it's even less. I don't know about the licence for a vehicle. But the

14 normal time is three to five days to be issued with a document. Of

15 course, if you submit a proper application with the photographs and the

16 amount of money prescribed.

17 I waited, for instance, only three days to get my passport.

18 I did not finish my answer, if you allow me, regarding the seizure

19 of documents.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please go ahead.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know about this one case on the

22 border crossing of Vrbnica. I'm saying again this is outside the defence

23 area of my unit, but I heard that a couple of policemen had been taking

24 IDs from Siptar civilians, and they even took off some licence plates from

25 a number of vehicles. The incident was immediately reported to the

Page 46016












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13 English transcripts.













Page 46017

1 brigade commander but also to the chief of MUP. Since the brigade

2 commander was otherwise engaged at the time, and there was a unit of the

3 MUP close to the border crossing, the chief of MUP Prizren personally went

4 there, ordered that such cases must not happen again. And if I'm not

5 mistaken, he also ordered some steps to be taken against the MUP members

6 who did that.

7 Q. You are talking about the intervention of the chief of Prizren MUP

8 when he found out about this incident.

9 A. Yes. The reaction was quick, and this irregularity was

10 eliminated.

11 Q. Tell me one more thing. As an officer of the army of Yugoslavia,

12 have you ever received an order, be it verbal or any kind, to exert

13 pressure let alone deport Kosovo Albanians?

14 A. Every order has the same weight regardless of whether it is verbal

15 or written, but I never received an order to deport a single person let

16 alone a group. I can even tell you that I would never execute an order of

17 that kind, and I don't think you can find a single officer of the army of

18 Yugoslavia who would be prepared to carry out such an order. And anyway,

19 in the army it is clearly defined what kind of orders can be issued and

20 what orders have to be carried out and what orders don't have to be

21 carried out.

22 Q. Did you ever receive any information about any plan of ethnic

23 cleansing?

24 A. No. I never heard or saw any sort of plan of that kind, nor did I

25 hear anything about any colleague of mine hearing or seeing it.

Page 46018

1 Q. How about the chain of command in Kosovo and Metohija? Was it

2 operating properly?

3 A. Where the army is concerned, the chain of command operated just as

4 anywhere else in the territory of Yugoslavia. The system of command and

5 control is governed by the constitution of Yugoslavia from 1993. And if I

6 remember correctly, there is Article 135, which says that the army of

7 Yugoslavia in peacetime and in war is commanded by the president of the

8 republic pursuant to the decisions of the Supreme Defence Council. The

9 law on the army develops this stipulation. It copies provisions from the

10 constitution, saying that the army of Yugoslavia is an armed force

11 defending the sovereignty, the territory, independence, and constitutional

12 order. And in Article 3 it says that commanding in the army is based on

13 the principles of singleness of command with the use of -- singleness of

14 command and subordination.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Colonel, I'm not sure whether this is a question

16 that you can answer, whether the chain of command was operating properly.

17 You haven't attempted to answer it, and it may very well be that you're

18 not in a position to answer it.

19 I think that's a matter that we'll have to determine for

20 ourselves, Mr. Milosevic. Let us try to finish the examination of this

21 witness. Do you have any other questions?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have just a few more questions

23 left.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Do you have any knowledge about direct concert and cooperation

Page 46019

1 between NATO and the KLA during the war in Kosovo?

2 A. Who else could have such knowledge but me? That is to say that I

3 was on the border with Albania all the time, where the greatest attacks

4 came from, where the sorties took place directly, and also where the land

5 forces entered. So they did act in concert; the forces of NATO, the

6 forces of Albania, and the terrorists. It went on all the time, and it

7 was excellently organised.

8 I'm saying this to you on the basis of the fact that I was

9 personally present there throughout the war. I received reports from the

10 subordinates from my own units, I received orders and information from

11 superior commands. After all, this is confirmed, corroborated from my own

12 documents. I can quote from my own tabs that you admitted into evidence

13 and that you have not mentioned so far during your direct examination,

14 where you can see that there was coordinated action between the NATO Air

15 Force, the Albanian armed forces, and the terrorists, those who were

16 attacking from Albania as well as who were attacking our territory

17 in-depth.

18 Q. Which tabs do you have in mind?

19 A. First of all, the combat reports. If I'm not mistaken, that is

20 tab 2.

21 You can have a look at page 189.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Did we not have evidence about this two days ago,

23 or was that Mr. Djosan? It's confusing when there are two witnesses at

24 the same time. But we've had very recent evidence about activity from the

25 Albanian side of the border in conjunction with NATO.

Page 46020

1 MR. NICE: I think Your Honour has in mind this witness's

2 evidence, and I think it may be a question when the witness was asked

3 whether the action of which he was speaking was from within the territory

4 of Kosovo or from the territory of Albania, and I think it was this

5 witness who gave the answer.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: We've been over the whole issue of the link between

7 NATO, Albanian forces, and the KLA already in this witness's evidence.

8 I have a distinct impression, and I noted it the last day, that we

9 were going over territory repeatedly with this witness. He's already been

10 before us for almost three times the projected time that his evidence

11 would take. It's almost as if he's here to fill in time rather than to

12 make progress with the case.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, bring the examination to a close.

14 You're now marking time. We're not making any progress.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Colonel, there is evidence of that in your combat reports. This

18 cooperation and coordination, is it undoubted from the point of view of

19 your personal experience and the reports that you received and that you

20 communicated?

21 A. Absolutely on the basis of my personal experience, Mr. Milosevic.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, it's now becoming

23 counter-productive. Leading leading leading questions.

24 Mr. Nice.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right.

Page 46021

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Have you --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you still have other questions?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm putting the question right

5 now, Mr. Robinson. You said that I shouldn't put the question that I had

6 put any more, so I'm putting another one.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's a leading question, and I'm beginning to

8 form the view, Mr. Milosevic, that we are in that stage of your

9 examination-in-chief when you're merely repeating yourself.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm at the very end, Mr. Robinson,

11 the very end.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Did you mention all the examples from your zone, or at least the

14 majority of examples from your zone when NATO targeted civilian

15 objectives?

16 A. Not before this Court. I can give them.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: With a question like that, we're in danger of being

18 here for the remaining hundred hours of your evidence. You've surely got

19 to focus the witness's attention on specific events if you're going to

20 conduct a satisfactory examination of him.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Colonel, I'm talking about the targeting of civilian objectives by

23 NATO. Did NATO do more harm to civilian or military --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the relevance of yet another question on

25 that subject when we've had a great deal of evidence from this witness

Page 46022

1 about the targeting of civilians by NATO and the fact that the bombing led

2 to the civilians moving out? What more can he say on the subject?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's just what I've asked

4 him, what you said just now, Mr. Robinson [sic], what else he can say on

5 that subject, because it's a very important subject. If there's nothing

6 else he can say, then I will only refers to tabs 4 and 5 that Mr. Nice

7 indicated as of being of minor importance. That is the notebook of

8 received telegrams and the notebook of sent telegrams.

9 Mr. Robinson, I'm just trying to have this admitted into evidence.

10 I'm just trying to lay a foundation for that.

11 MR. NICE: The Court will remember that these two tabs were not

12 dealt with by the accused in his questioning by any question that

13 indicated their relevance, and I think it was His Honour Judge Kwon who

14 observed that. Thus, they weren't admitted into evidence at the time and

15 we moved on.

16 Whether there is any ground now for finding relevance in them, I

17 rather doubt.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: He may be able to establish a basis.

19 We will allow you to put a question, a specific question on that

20 subject.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Please look at the log of received telegrams. Just a few

23 examples. Say page 23, on the left-hand side. You have the report of the

24 2nd -- the commander of the 2nd Motorised Unit, and this has to do with a

25 soldier who had committed a crime.

Page 46023

1 A. Just a minute, please. Let me find this. Yes. What can be seen

2 here is the command of the 2nd Motorised Company on the 20th of May is

3 submitting information that a soldier nicknamed Brzi, born on --

4 Q. You don't have to go into all this detail.

5 A. Yes, but Mr. Milosevic, in order to make things clear you have to

6 look at the two logs along parallel lines.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just answer the question and let us move on.

8 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... 2 in the English.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, I didn't hear that, Mr. Nice.

10 MR. NICE: Page 32 in the English.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Colonel, on page 23 is there a report of the 2nd Motorised

13 Company?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then on page 16 of outgoing telegrams, is there a telegram

16 stating that the details of that soldier are being requested? Because

17 it's only his nickname that was known until then.

18 A. Just a moment, please. I'm not very good with all these papers.

19 Could you please repeat the page in the log of outgoing telegrams?

20 Q. 16, to the right.

21 A. Yes. The command of the 2nd Motorised Battalion, on the 20th of

22 May, seeks the details of the soldier nicknamed Brzi who had committed

23 many serious crimes. Nezmic Nenad [phoen], lieutenant, is the person who

24 signed this. He was in charge of security in my battalion.

25 Q. And among the telegrams received, the report of the commander?

Page 46024

1 A. Exactly, that he found him immediately. You can even see the time

2 here, if you look at page 16, at 12.10. That's when it was sent.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: It would be of more interest to know what the

4 crimes were.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you that too. The crime

6 was rape. So it was two soldiers who fled from the position, went to the

7 town of Prizren, they broke into a house, where people lived, of course.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. That's enough for my

9 purposes. Thank you.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. All right --

12 MR. NICE: I don't know if it has been translated. I haven't been

13 able to find it.

14 JUDGE KWON: Page 34.

15 MR. NICE: Of the outgoing.

16 JUDGE KWON: Of tab 5. In the middle.

17 MR. NICE: That's the 10th of May, in the middle.

18 JUDGE KWON: But delivered on the 20th.

19 MR. NICE: Yes, I see. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Look at the telegrams received, please. Page 31, towards the

24 bottom. The 25th of May, the commander of the 2nd Company, that he had a

25 soldier brought into custody. The log of telegrams received.

Page 46025

1 A. Yes. He states here that he brought into custody yet another

2 soldier, and he's asking the security officer to come and fetch him. This

3 is another soldier who, together with this other one called Brzi, took

4 part in the commission of that crime.

5 In all fairness I don't have their criminal reports because they

6 are not kept by units, but I have the documents from the war court, and I

7 know for sure that they were brought before a war court and sentenced.

8 Q. On page 32, that's the next page immediately, it's the report of

9 the 26th of May.

10 A. Exactly. This soldier who was at the company command, probably no

11 one from the brigade could have come, so he took -- he had him sent to

12 Prizren, to the military police organs.

13 Q. Thank you. Page 29.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The log of received telegrams. The combat control of the

16 territory. And to the right you have Colonel Delic's order on the command

17 of the territory.

18 A. Could I just have a reference, please? Yes. I found it now.

19 Q. The report of the commander of the 2nd Company, and then on the

20 right-hand side you have --

21 A. Exactly. On the 22nd of May, the commander of that company

22 reported that he carried out the combat control of the territory, and he

23 says what happened to the terrorists, and the equipment that he captured,

24 and he also had certain proposals. I immediately informed the brigade

25 commander. I could not do it immediately, though, because the company

Page 46026

1 commander informed me during the night. But on the 23rd I sent my report,

2 and I think that you have it also in the log of telegrams that were sent

3 out.

4 And then immediately on the 23rd, the brigade commander sent to

5 all units in the brigade an order which shows that there are still active

6 terrorists within our combat deployment, and he gives orders to the units

7 to take measures in order to protect themselves from terrorist actions.

8 And on the following page, he commends a unit that had successfully

9 carried out the combat control of the territory.

10 Q. Colonel, on the basis of these telegrams can a conclusion be drawn

11 on the communication between you as the commander of this command group

12 with the company commanders and the commander of the brigade or, rather,

13 can we see different events linked up and the mode of command as far as

14 concrete things are concerned?

15 A. Mr. Milosevic, this is precisely what I wished to explain through

16 the question of functioning of the command and control system. I only

17 wanted to talk about the tactical level where I was, but I was not

18 permitted to do so.

19 However, this is an obvious example of that, that all reports from

20 subordinate units come to me, and then on the basis of all those reports,

21 I report to my superior command and the command immediately works on

22 certain documents and takes steps in order to improve the command and

23 basically to carry out combat tasks, namely the defence of the country

24 against the aggressor -- from the aggressor.

25 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Just a few things from the log of outgoing

Page 46027

1 telegrams. We already identified one on page 16 where this corresponds to

2 the measures taken vis-a-vis perpetrators of crimes.

3 Please look at page 23, on the left-hand side: Order to the

4 commander of the 2nd Motorised Company to use forces. And please look at

5 the log of received telegrams on page 35, higher up.

6 A. Just a moment, please.

7 Q. So page 23, to the left.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in the log of telegrams received, page 35, the proposal of the

10 company commander.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So how does this process evolve? What can we see on the basis of

13 this? What does the commander of the company propose? Whose approval

14 does he seek? Does he receive approval ultimately? What is this all

15 about?

16 A. This company commander - I'm going to remind you of tab 6 -

17 received my order, and what happened here was something unexpected.

18 Namely, that the land forces -- the land Operation Arrow started from

19 Pastrik and it threatened my left flank. So the company commander asks me

20 for approval to change combat deployment in that sense where I did not

21 order him to act that way. That is to show that he could not change a

22 single element without receiving my approval, my consent.

23 Of course, on the same day I saw what the situation was and I

24 personally went to see the commander. But although I personally went to

25 see the commander, I had to give orders in writing as well, granting

Page 46028












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13 English transcripts.













Page 46029

1 approval to change positions partially. And that was originally the

2 proposal of the company commander because he was a sensible man, a clever

3 man. And you can see in this way the chain of command in the military as

4 well.

5 Q. So he cannot change a single element of the combat order without

6 your approval, and you cannot change a single element in your combat order

7 without the approval of the commander brigade -- brigade commander, and he

8 without the approval of the corps commander.

9 A. Exactly. The rules of conduct are very clear on this, when a

10 military person can use a unit independently. And that is to say if there

11 was a direct attack against that unit, first he's going to use the unit

12 and then he's going report to his commander. In all other cases, it is

13 precisely the way you had put it.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just a second. What do you say

16 that all this evidence goes to show, this evidence about the command

17 structure that you have been leading? What are you seeking to establish

18 by it?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Seeking -- I'm seeking to establish

20 how the army functions on a tactical level of the kind commanded by

21 Colonel Vukovic. So on the basis of documents, a logbook of outgoing and

22 incoming telegrams, you can see that there is no possibility for the army

23 even to be moved without an order issued, and that every order issued must

24 be completely clear. And it shows the dynamics of the change in position

25 or certain actions undertaken by the army. And also, it shows the

Page 46030

1 reactions, what the reaction is if, for example, a soldier happens to have

2 committed a crime. He can be in a watchtower on the border, they find

3 him, take him into custody, and so on.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: All of this assumes that the army is acting in

5 accordance with those rules.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It doesn't assume. It proves that

7 the army acts in accordance with those rules. It proves how and shows how

8 orders are issued and how they are executed and so on.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: In my view what it proves is that you have

10 something written in a particular document which says that the army must

11 act in a particular way, but surely it doesn't prove that in actual fact

12 the army acted in that way.

13 It's this emphasis on form that is in your case that I don't

14 understand.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, Mr. Robinson, with all due

16 respect, that you didn't understand this point. We're not talking and

17 dealing with regulations at all here, and rules. We're dealing with

18 specific actions and acts which are expressed through this telegram having

19 been committed or having been ordered and orders carried out. So we're

20 talking about concrete material facts here about what was going on in the

21 field.

22 These logbooks of incoming and outgoing telegrams reflect the

23 events on the ground, on the terrain, not the rules and regulations. We

24 know all about rules and regulations and we've been through them. But

25 these incoming and outgoing telegrams demonstrate what actually happened,

Page 46031

1 what was going on.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Milosevic. Let us try to conclude

3 this witness's examination-in-chief.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May these exhibits 4 and 5 be

5 admitted into evidence, Mr. Robinson, now, please?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, do you have anything on this?

7 MR. NICE: No observation.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll admit them, yes.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Just three short questions. Colonel, did the members of your unit

12 ever commit war crimes; and, if so, what steps did you take?

13 A. I've already said that there were two cases, two incidents that

14 happened. In all those cases -- or both those cases an on-site

15 investigation was carried out, and since the unit was directly exposed to

16 air force action, the military investigating judge did not go out on the

17 spot but the investigation was carried out by units of the military police

18 assigned to do so, along with a criminal report filed, and the person was

19 given over to a court-martial.

20 Q. Except for those two examples, did you have any other example of

21 any member your unit committing any crimes?

22 A. No, Mr. Milosevic, we had no such instances.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, in your area of defence, were there any villages

24 - and if so, how many - where the population did not move out at all,

25 either to other areas of Kosovo and Metohija or the Republic of Albania?

Page 46032

1 A. Well, there were seven or eight of them in the combat deployment

2 area of my unit.

3 Q. We're talking about villages that didn't move at all, there was no

4 movement.

5 A. Yes, that's right. Those villages, there was no movement of the

6 population in those villages. They stayed on throughout the time we were

7 there and even later on when we left.

8 Q. And what was the activities of your platoon for the protection of

9 the civilian population?

10 A. The basic task was the following: To inform -- provide

11 information about airstrikes and the consequences of the airstrikes, of

12 the NATO Air Force on the civilians. We had a lot to do pursuant to that

13 particular assignment. And if you want me to, I can go into that greater

14 detail. And there was the prevention of any abuse and irregular action on

15 the part of army members vis-a-vis the civilian population. And wherever

16 there were examples of such misbehaviour the Intervention Platoon

17 intervened or, rather, the platoon intervened and uncovered the

18 perpetrators or acted to prevent further action of that kind. And the

19 head of that platoon, the commander of the platoon, was my security

20 officer, who among other things, was in charge of matters of that kind

21 too.

22 Q. Thank you, Colonel.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

24 Mr. Robinson, for this witness.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 46033

1 Mr. Nice.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

3 Q. In a sentence, please, what were you and your troops doing in the

4 area of Celine, Bela Crkva, Mala Krusa between the 25th of March and the

5 1st of April, 1999?

6 A. From the 25th of March to the 28th of March I was located in this

7 area. I've talked at length about that. We were engaged in an

8 anti-terrorist operation. From the 28th of March until the 1st of April,

9 I wasn't there at all. I wasn't in that area at all.

10 Q. The first three days an anti-terrorist operation. How would you

11 describe it, in a sentence?

12 A. I don't understand what you're asking me.

13 Q. Well, were you attacking them?

14 A. I've spoken about that sufficiently. There was action only where

15 the terrorists shot at my unit, or shot at other units, for that matter.

16 Q. So you were, as it were, not taking an initiative against the

17 terrorists of any kind. You were simply passive, waiting for them to fire

18 at you and you'd shoot back; is that right?

19 A. No. You're distorting what I've been saying, Mr. Nice. The army

20 does not just pass by in an operation of this kind such as the fight and

21 combat against terrorists. And I've already said that that was one of the

22 most complex combat operations; assumes positions at the blockade line and

23 searches the terrain. It is not passing through. It is a combat

24 operation that is undertaken where the terrorists were active.

25 Q. Of course, you pass through Bela Crkva because there were no KLA

Page 46034

1 there. That's correct, isn't it?

2 A. According to our information, there were no members of the

3 terrorist organisation, the Kosovo Liberation Army members, there. There

4 were no hostile -- there was no hostile action towards the army, and the

5 army had no need to go into operation there.

6 Q. And so the other villages, it was a question of blockading and

7 searching; is that correct?

8 A. Well, the object was to block off a certain area, to effect a

9 blockade and to uncover and destroy the Siptar terrorist forces --

10 Q. Destroy?

11 A. -- and to block the communication lines, the roads.

12 Q. Just a minute. I'm very interested in your use of words, you see?

13 And we've only got them in the translation, but you can find the

14 originals. Blockade, search, and now you've explained that the function,

15 where they were found, was to destroy them. So there's no question, for

16 example, of arresting terrorists, as you would describe the KLA to be.

17 A. Mr. Nice, that's what you think. I am truly sorry that you can't

18 understand what I'm telling you. And you don't understand it for the

19 simple reason because you don't have the elementary, basic --

20 Q. Please be as offensive to me as you think is helpful to the cause

21 you're serving, but you will save time if you answer my questions.

22 Now, I'm going to go back and I'm going to ask you the question

23 once more, and this time would you be good enough to answer the question

24 and not launch into what may be, I suggest to you, a prepared method of

25 replying to my questions.

Page 46035

1 Now, then, I've asked a simple question. You've explained that

2 the function was to destroy them, and the question was: There's no

3 question of arresting terrorists, as you would describe the KLA to be. Am

4 I right?

5 A. No, you're not right, and you're not listening to what I'm saying.

6 Mr. Nice, I cannot give simple answers to your questions because your

7 questions are complicated ones. Furthermore, I don't know English, so I

8 can't read the transcript, but I do know what I said, and this is what I

9 said: A blockade, a search, breaking up, or destruction, which means to

10 break up the enemy. Breaking up, "razbiti," means to make it impossible

11 for them to act in one way or another.

12 Now, for you to be able to understand that, you must have

13 elementary military knowledge of military terminology. And I can tell you

14 about that because I was a teacher. I taught military terminology for a

15 long time, tactics for a long time.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... and your evidence has already

17 taken eight hours, approximately, to give. I've asked you to give a

18 simple explanation of what you were doing, and we've gone through various

19 terms, and we came to uncover and destroy. It may be the same terms,

20 differently translated the second time; breaking up or destroying. So

21 these are your terms, Mr. Vukovic.

22 Now, tell us, please, were any terrorists arrested? Terrorists as

23 you describe them to be. Were any arrested?

24 A. In this anti-terrorist operation, to the best my knowledge there

25 were no terrorists arrested.

Page 46036

1 Q. How many alleged terrorists were killed?

2 A. You can see that from the analysis. It is our assumption that

3 about 80 were, although I say that never along my axis of movement did I

4 encounter the corpses. I told you that.

5 Q. Did your --

6 A. There were a lot of traces of blood but not actual corpses.

7 Q. Did your own troops kill any people you say were terrorists?

8 A. All I'm saying is that my unit fought terrorists. I cannot say

9 whether it killed them or not.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

11 A. And the basic goal was to break them up, but you don't understand

12 this notion of breaking up, "razbiti."

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I need to be clear about this: Is the

14 witness saying that when he used the word "destroy," he used it in the

15 sense of breaking up?

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. Could you answer His Honour, please?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it exactly,

19 Mr. Robinson. It means to neutralise their effects, their action. Not

20 physically to kill, not physically to kill.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

22 MR. NICE:

23 Q. You say that -- and again I'm just reading back to you your

24 words. That's why we have short questions and answers. It sometimes

25 helps. "I'm saying," you said, "is that my unit fought terrorists. I

Page 46037

1 cannot say whether it killed them or not." That's your answer.

2 If troops in your unit did kill or think they had killed

3 terrorists, would they report that to you or through the chain of command

4 to you?

5 A. Certainly at all events had they found the bodies, the corpses,

6 they would have had to have informed me of that.

7 Q. And there would be, would there, a regular written reporting

8 mechanism whereby a soldier says: "Encountered so many terrorists or so

9 many people who seemed to be terrorists in village X, they engaged me in a

10 fight and I killed them all -- I believe I killed two or three of them."

11 Is that what happens? You tell us.

12 A. Well, that's something that doesn't happen because a soldier

13 doesn't write a written report, a written statement. And anyway, I was

14 saying that the army was very -- the soldiers were very -- it was very

15 infrequent that the soldiers were alone. They would always have a

16 commanding officer with them. And had you read the order by the brigade

17 commander carefully, you would see the procedure in this particular case,

18 the procedure with respect to the clearing up of the battlefield, the

19 "asanacija" of the battlefield.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, this is a day when we have to stop at

21 1.43.

22 MR. NICE: Very well.

23 Q. Can you help me with three very short procedural -- not

24 procedural, practical matters. The telegrams, in and out, that we've now

25 looked at, tabs 4 and 5, they are written. In what form did they arrive

Page 46038

1 as -- in order to be written out in the way we see? In what form did they

2 arrive? In what form were they sent?

3 A. There's a small device which is called the UKP2, and you connect

4 it to an RUP20 or 20K device. I don't know whether you know about these

5 devices, whether it's clear that I'm saying, and the operator working with

6 that computer when he sends out a telegram -- it's a primitive device,

7 actually, and it's a slow process.

8 Q. Very well. You receive no printed copy and somebody has to write

9 it out in hand; is that right?

10 A. Yes, that's exactly it. The operator on duty at the time at the

11 communications centre writes it in on a piece of paper and brings it to me

12 to see. And that's the kind of device that was used.

13 Q. We have the full records of your unit for the relevant period?

14 A. No, not the full record, Mr. Nice. Of these incoming and outgoing

15 -- there were many logbooks of incoming and outgoing telegrams. They

16 were kept in 1998 as well.

17 Q. Where's the one that covers the period the 25th of March and until

18 the beginning of April? Because all we have for outgoing -- I beg your

19 pardon, for incoming is something that starts on the 26th of April, and

20 all we have for outgoing is a single entry for the 19th of February and

21 then entries for the 20th of April. So where are the ones that cover the

22 period in which we are particularly interested, the 25th of March to the

23 end of March? Where are they?

24 A. Well, had you let me finish, I would have told you that too. If

25 you look, you can notice that there are some pages missing. And I've

Page 46039

1 already said that my office at the barracks was directly hit and that most

2 of or the largest portion of the documents for 1998 were destroyed. The

3 command post was hit with a direct hit three times. And among other

4 things, it was during that action, NATO strikes to be precise, it was

5 during that -- as a result of those NATO strikes that a large number of

6 documents were destroyed.

7 Q. Finally --

8 A. Truth to tell, I'm surprised that this has remained.

9 Q. Finally, as a matter of records, tab 2 you've told us about, we

10 have now been provided with a fuller version of tab 2. Is this an

11 original and complete document, the fuller version we've been provided

12 with? It's an original document.

13 A. You will have to let me see it to tell you whether it is the

14 original and complete document. What I have here before me is the

15 original, because I can see the signatures, I can see the dates. I

16 remember the actual occurrence.

17 Q. And this is a document kept by whom?

18 A. It's the daily report pursuant to instructions about the work of

19 commands and staffs, and it is the deputy battalion commander who keeps

20 them, signed by the battalion commander himself. So it was compiled by my

21 deputy, I signed it. And if I am absent from the command post, then when

22 a report is to be sent out, it is signed by my deputy.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I'm sorry to interrupt but we have to

24 adjourn now.

25 We will resume tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.

Page 46040

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day

3 of November, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.