Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 48979

1 Tuesday, 28 February 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Milosevic.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

10 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.

11 Examination by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jarcevic, you were saying that you travelled

13 to different negotiations and on different occasions. In view of the

14 circumstances, could you travel from any other airport but the Belgrade

15 airport?

16 A. Yes. For example, when we visited certain political parties --

17 these are not really negotiations but this was in Italy, and we travelled

18 from Timisoara in Romania. And I think that twice when we travelled to

19 Moscow we used the Timisoara airport.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other microphones

21 please be switched off because we cannot hear the speakers. Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. Most often we travelled

23 on UNPROFOR planes, then they took us directly from the Belgrade airport

24 to Geneva. And from Budapest we used a plane to go to the United States

25 via France.

Page 48980

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, something doesn't seem to

2 be working here. This installation that usually works --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can we have that attended to by the technical

4 staff.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please ask the interpreters

6 to say something so that I can check whether I can hear them. Yes. Thank

7 you. It works now. All right. All right.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Could you please repeat what you said a few moments ago. Did you

10 most often travel from Belgrade when you went on these trips?

11 A. Most often from Belgrade, primarily when we were taken by

12 UNPROFOR. But I know that the Republic of Serbia or the Federal Republic

13 of Yugoslavia lent its aircraft to UNPROFOR.

14 Q. That is not important. The point is that you travelled from

15 Belgrade most often in view of the circumstances involved. Did your

16 delegation ever visit me prior to going on some trip when you were all

17 together?

18 A. Usually we did not pay any calls on you. I just know that once we

19 came to your office, but several days before we went to the negotiations.

20 We informed you that these negotiations would ensue. This was in March in

21 Geneva. If you wish, I can repeat what we talked about then, the only

22 things we talked about.

23 Q. Well, yes, you can. Go ahead.

24 A. Without going into our platform, because I hadn't even completed

25 the platform for these negotiations yet, you did not really give us any

Page 48981

1 suggestions in view of the methodology of negotiations. You only said a

2 single sentence and that was sign the agreement. Reach an agreement with

3 the Croats so that these children would not be killed at the borders on

4 both sides. Nothing else. I didn't hear anything else from you then

5 although I thought that we would discuss matters and agree on things.

6 This was my first meeting with you before the important business that lay

7 ahead of the government of the Republic of Serb Krajina because

8 international negotiators promised that in Geneva we would reach an

9 agreement that would lead to a final peace.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jarcevic. Let us go back to Milan Babic's

11 assertions here. He spoke on the 19th of November, 2002, transcript pages

12 13065 through 67 and 13501, 14104, 105. Approximately -- well, not

13 approximately, but briefly, what he said that was the official reasons

14 presented in the media in terms of the JNA intervening in order to

15 separate the warring parties and deblocking garrisons, that that was not

16 true and that actually it intervened in order to serve the purposes of my

17 policy. What can you say about that, that the JNA did not intervene in

18 order to separate the warring parties, to deblock the garrisons, but for

19 other reasons?

20 A. If we look at this statement of Mr. Babic, then we have to see

21 what the time is. That was 1991 and parts of 1992, while the Yugoslav

22 People's Army was in the Republic of Serb Krajina. Certainly --

23 Q. Well, he said that it was sometime in 1991 when this happened.

24 A. I'm just trying to remind you that at that time in 1991 the

25 Presidency of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was still in

Page 48982

1 place and that the key positions there were held by the representatives of

2 Croatia and Slovenia, precisely because the top echelons of the Yugoslav

3 People's Army were practically manned by Slovenes and Croats.

4 There's another interesting thing I can tell you here. For

5 example, all ambassadors in Europe were mostly from Croatia and Slovenia,

6 whereas Serbia had its representative only in Great Britain. So you can

7 imagine how this illegal import of weapons into Croatia took place. I'm

8 sure that most of the heads of these embassies and consulates had already

9 been prepared for the secession of their republics from Yugoslavia.

10 The only conclusion that I can draw is that Babic has provided

11 complete misinformation. You --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. Please just concentrate on

13 the question and don't digress.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. He said that the structure of the attacks was such that the police

16 and the volunteers of the Krajina would be engaged in provocations and

17 open gunfire individually at Croat settlements, and then the Croats would

18 return fire and then this would give the JNA a pretext to intervene. And

19 as he said, they would do that by using heavy artillery and different

20 units under their command in order to attack Croat towns.

21 Can you say anything about this? Is this correct?

22 A. That is not correct at all, because the Yugoslav People's Army did

23 not have such assignments at all. It did not attack Croat towns in order

24 to take them or in order to expel the Croat population from them. The

25 only thing it did was protect the Serb people in the remaining part of the

Page 48983

1 former Croatia. And as far as we can see, 400.000 betrayed Serbs had

2 nothing to do with the provocations that Babic is talking about, and yet

3 again they had to leave their homes.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Can you tell us how, if at all,

5 you became privy to the assignments of the Yugoslav People's Army.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that was quite

7 simple. Had the army had the kind of assignments as Babic says, it would

8 have been no problem for them to reach the Italian border. You just have

9 to resort to simple logic, not any special kind of information. The

10 Croatian army was not a daunting force. It could not have stopped the

11 Yugoslav army had it had the kind of assignments that Babic is saying it

12 had.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: So it's just a matter of logic and reasoning.

14 You didn't have any specific information.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had information as president --

16 or, rather, as minister in the government of the Republic of Serb Krajina.

17 I know that often we complained about that.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: You were a minister of what at the time? Foreign

19 affairs?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me say this: As I

21 informed you yesterday, I was foreign minister from October 1992 until

22 April 1994, but I had information about the activities of the Yugoslav

23 People's Army in 1991 in the area of the Republic of Serb Krajina.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 48984

1 Q. Babic says, on transcript page 13234, that the provisions of the

2 Vance Plan were not observed in Krajina.

3 A. Mr. President, I'm sorry --

4 Q. All right. All right. Go ahead.

5 A. Mr. President, yesterday we touched on that subject, the Vance

6 Plan. The police of the Republic of Serb Krajina was supposed to have

7 revolvers only or the kind of weapons worn on the hip, as defined there.

8 However, there were large-scale aggressions of the Croat army, and Serbs

9 were being disturbed every day across the border, and the police of the

10 Krajina had to keep some automatic weapons. That's why Babic said that

11 the Vance Plan had not been fully observed. And on the other hand, there

12 was no peace, and that was a requirement of the Vance Plan, but Babic

13 doesn't say a word about that.

14 Q. He said that what was prevented was the return of Croats and that

15 Milosevic implicitly supported that, and so on and so forth. Do you know

16 anything about this kind of prevention of the return of Croats?

17 A. Yes, Mr. President, I know a great deal. That is Resolution 762,

18 which was passed in 1992. And that was the first one that referred to the

19 return of Croats to the Republic of Serb Krajina. And then the government

20 of the Republic of Serb Krajina asked for the Serb people who had been

21 expelled - and there were far many more of them - to receive the same

22 treatment. However, the Security Council remained silent on that.

23 Q. He said in -- on transcript page 12991, that the army of Republic

24 of Serb Krajina was dependent on the army of Yugoslavia. Do you know

25 anything about that? He claims that I appointed commanders. Do you know

Page 48985

1 anything about that?

2 A. Mr. President, when I was a member of the government of the

3 Republic of Serb Krajina, the relations between the Republic of Serb

4 Krajina and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had all the characteristics

5 of relations between any two countries. Of course, bearing in mind the

6 specific situation involving a total blockade on the part of the rest of

7 the world, and that is the situation that both countries had to face, so

8 military cooperation, police cooperation, industry, economic relations;

9 all of that was involved.

10 I would like to make you aware of yet another fact: Mr. Babic is

11 objecting in terms of some relations that our army had with the army of

12 Yugoslavia. However, we had relations in other fields as well. For

13 example, the weather forecasters who were working in Knin tried to get

14 information in Zagreb. The -- and the people from Zagreb, the Croats, did

15 not even send these people their salaries. So then their weather station

16 had to link itself up to Belgrade, and that is how they received their

17 salaries. Then engineers, electrical engineers, everything had to go on

18 functioning. It was only right for that to happen, because otherwise the

19 population of the Krajina would face its death. Would that be right?

20 Q. Thank you. Slobodan Lazarevic testified here. Do you know

21 Slobodan Lazarevic?

22 A. Yes, I met Mr. Lazarevic --

23 Q. Thank you. You know him. He stated here on transcript page 12310

24 and 309 that he talked to Dusan Rakic and Goran Hadzic before the

25 conference in Norway, and that on that occasion they said to him that

Page 48986

1 allegedly "The Boss" - and they meant me by that - gave them direct and

2 explicit orders not to get anything done at that meeting.

3 Tell me now, were you at that meeting? Did you have this kind of

4 knowledge?

5 A. Mr. President, I was not at this meeting with you.

6 Q. Well, they were not either. No, no. He wasn't either. He says

7 that Hadzic and Rakic said to him that they had been with me and that I

8 told them that they shouldn't get anything done in Norway. That's what I

9 said to them before they went to Norway.

10 A. Mr. President, I started my answer right. I was not at the

11 meeting with you and Mr. Hadzic and Mr. Rakic never told me that they had

12 a meeting with you or that they did not have a meeting with you. I spoke

13 about this yesterday. I talked about the secret negotiations in Norway.

14 Our delegation, according to the draft that was offered by

15 Vollebaek and that Croatia agreed on, our delegation was prepared to sign

16 this agreement. So no one was exercising any influence over us, including

17 you, because we are not the party that refused to sign the agreement.

18 Q. So you are not the party that refused to sign the agreement. You

19 wanted to sign the agreement. That is what you know from Norway?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. And he stated here that before every peace conference

22 he and others who took part in peace conferences would get together in

23 Belgrade in order to get instructions from the Serbian government in the

24 following way: The head of delegation would go to see me, and every

25 representative from the delegation would meet with the Serb and federal

Page 48987

1 representatives of the other side. Somebody would meet up with people

2 from my office, allegedly, and others would meet up with other people, and

3 so on and so forth. Was that the way it was? Was that the way this

4 witness described it? Is this correct?

5 A. In the case of all the negotiations, none of this happened. I was

6 the one who prepared the platforms, as I explained to you yesterday.

7 Q. Did you participate in all the negotiations?

8 A. As I said, I participated in the most important ones. The only

9 delegation I was not part of was the one that was supposed to negotiate in

10 Topusko sometime in late 1993. These negotiations, however, fell through

11 because the Croats launched untruths and said that it was the Serb side

12 that was rejecting negotiations. After that, the meeting in Norway

13 followed, and this always happened at the proposal of international

14 mediators.

15 Q. This meeting in Topusko was supposed to take place on the

16 territory of the Krajina, somewhere in the border belt. Is that where

17 Topusko is? Could you explain where it is?

18 A. Topusko is in Kordun province, 30 kilometres, as the crow flies,

19 from Zagreb. The Croats agreed to go there but then they had a change of

20 heart, obviously, and found a pretext which was not based in fact because

21 Djordje Bjegovic, the Prime Minister, said that they were about half an

22 hour late and that the Croats used this as an excuse to tell their own

23 public that the Serbs were not cooperating.

24 Q. This witness claims that during those meetings Goran Hadzic spoke

25 to the president of the SRJ, Zoran Lilic, and then that he spoke in the

Page 48988

1 course of the meetings, depending on the topic, with the Chief of the

2 General Staff Perisic, or with Stanisic. Tell us, please, whether this

3 was Slobodan Lazarevic's position and that he had this kind of information

4 available even had it happened.

5 A. Mr. President, President Hadzic never informed the government of

6 any visit of that kind or of any kind of conclusions reached with the

7 leadership of the Republic of Serbia, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

8 or the police leaders. At cabinet sessions we never received any such

9 reports. Mr. Lazarevic could not have been privy to what the government

10 and the president were doing because his headquarters was in Topusko. If

11 we look at the size of the Republic of Serb Krajina and Croatia, it's far

12 away from Knin and very far away from the headquarters of Mr. Hadzic, who

13 was on the western borders of Serbia.

14 Q. And what do you know about Lazarevic's activities in Topusko?

15 A. I met him at the Kordun Corps, and he was introduced to me as the

16 corps interpreter. He was interpreting for our officers who didn't speak

17 any foreign languages in contacts with the UNPROFOR commanders.

18 Q. Lazarevic also testified about what he observed when travelling in

19 the direction of Knin. That's on the 29th of October, 2002, when he

20 testified about that, when he was travelling towards Knin where barricades

21 had been set up along the road during the so-called log revolution, and he

22 saw many cars with Serb licence plates, non-local licence plates, which

23 strengthened his conviction that what he thought had been a spontaneous

24 revolution of the local Serbs was in fact something organised from Serbia.

25 A. Well, he's right in one thing, Mr. President: Half of Serbia was

Page 48989

1 in Dalmatia and those areas at the time because it was summertime, and you

2 know that people in Serbia took their vacations and spent their holidays

3 in that part of Yugoslavia. In 1991, Serbs or people from Serbia still

4 used those roads to go for their holidays.

5 Q. And what do you know about any involvement of citizens of Serbia

6 in the setting up of roadblocks? This was in 1990.

7 A. For heaven's sake, was any kind of impulse or incentive needed

8 from abroad to get people to defend their homes and their families? I

9 will read some excerpts from Croatian newspapers at the time, and you will

10 see that in many towns Serb houses were being blown up, looted, or set

11 fire to, as were Serbian shops.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think we want to hear what the Serb

13 peoples had to say on this. The question was what do you know about any

14 involvement of citizens of Serbia in the setting up of roadblocks, but you

15 have gone off on a tangent, as usual.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise if I'm doing that.

17 Barricades were not a result of any kind of influence from Serbia. I

18 think I've been clear on that.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: That wasn't -- that wasn't it. The question was

20 the involvement of the citizens of Serbia in the setting up of roadblocks,

21 not influence. Are you saying that there were no citizens of Serbia

22 involved in setting up of roadblocks?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they weren't. That can't be

24 checked. Even today it's impossible to check that. I said that 2 million

25 people in Serbia originated from that area. Perhaps somebody was visiting

Page 48990

1 his own brother and helped him to do that, I don't know.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you visit any of the roadblocks personally?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, I didn't say that. I

4 was in Greece, in Thessaloniki, from April until September 1991, serving

5 there.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... speak with

7 confidence as to the involvement of citizens of Serbia in the roadblocks.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have met many

9 people who did participate in setting up the roadblocks. Mostly they were

10 local people, from the area where the roadblocks were set up.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. The witness stated here that on numerous occasions packages sent

14 from Serbia to the Krajina, or shipments, contained weapons and military

15 equipment, but they were mislabelled as humanitarian aid. Could this

16 witness have informed himself about weapons and equipment being sent as

17 humanitarian aid? Do you know anything about this?

18 A. No, I don't. I can't say whether his information was correct or

19 whether he was simply deceiving this Court, but I have met many officers

20 who spoke in similar terms about humanitarian aid, and that was in the

21 UNPROFOR offices organisation. Through the Krajina and Bosnian Krajina

22 they sent weapons to the Muslims in Bihac and even sold weapons to

23 Croatian units. I can give you the name of the man who completed a study

24 on this. He was a colonel. The Court may summon him, if it likes. He

25 was in the army of Republika Srpska, a colonel.

Page 48991

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jarcevic. Nikola Samardzic testified here. On

2 page 11428 and 429 of the transcript, Samardzic says that the goal of the

3 JNA was to take Slavonia and Western Srem and arrive at the

4 Karlobag-Karlovac-Virovitica line. What do you know about this?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But before you reply to my question,

6 Mr. Robinson, I wish to draw your attention to the fact that what is

7 called the log revolution happened in 1990, not in 1991, when he was in

8 Greece, as he said, from April to September, if I remember correctly.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. My question was as follows: Samardzic says that the goal of the

11 JNA was to take the Karlobag-Karlovac-Virovitica line. Do you know what

12 the goal of the army was and if that was the goal?

13 A. Yesterday I said that similar statements were nonsense. Had such

14 a plan existed, it would have been implemented. The Croatian para-army

15 could not have prevented the JNA from doing that.

16 Q. Witness Petar Kriste stated here - that's transcript 14837 to 92 -

17 that Dubrovnik was attacked with the aim of creating a Greater Serbia and

18 taking territory and not, as he said, in order to preserve the

19 constitutional order. What do you think about this statement?

20 A. I think that this statement is just like the previous one. Had

21 this been the plan, there would have been no problems for the JNA in

22 taking Dubrovnik. There were many politicians who were in favour of

23 something like that, because from the earliest times in history Dubrovnik

24 has been a Serbian town. Even today the Croatian language is not spoken

25 there.

Page 48992

1 Q. We won't go into historical explanations now, but was it the goal

2 to take Dubrovnik in order to create a Greater Serbia?

3 A. No. That was not the goal. Had this been the goal, it would have

4 been implemented.

5 Q. You said that you were not a member of any party but that you

6 knew --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I just ask you, what was the goal, then?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me? Excuse me,

9 please. I apologise. The goal was as in any place where people were

10 threatened in Yugoslavia; to protect the Serbian people. You know that

11 about 2.200 Serbs were expelled from Dubrovnik before these battles that

12 are mentioned here so often, and all of Western Herzegovina in the

13 hinterland of Dubrovnik had been cleansed of Serbs. The Croatian army

14 there razed to the ground an Orthodox monastery dating from the 14th

15 century. Monasteries like this cannot be found anywhere else in Western

16 Europe. And this was part of the goal to stop the army at the coast; and

17 behind that line, the Serbs inhabited the area.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness Stjepan Mesic, in his statement, said the following: In

21 the beginning when the Serbian Democratic Party was established, it didn't

22 seem that that party would, as he says, become so radical because it was

23 advocating cultural autonomy. However, as time went by, it became clear

24 that this party was being manipulated by Belgrade, which means that the

25 regime of Slobodan Milosevic, and he personally, was manipulating them and

Page 48993

1 they were doing only those things that were leading to the creation of a

2 Greater Serbia, an ethnically pure territory cleansed of the non-Serb

3 population.

4 Tell me, what were the activities of the SDS, and is it correct to

5 say that I manipulated them? Did the SDS leadership maintain any kind of

6 contacts with me? What was that relationship like? Do you know anything

7 about this?

8 A. Mr. President, I know that the two leading men in the SDS,

9 Dr. Raskovic and Dr. Babic, were your political opponents. I don't know

10 why this role is being ascribed to you, of participating in the founding

11 of that party. I'm probably becoming a bit of a bore now, but I have to

12 repeat once again that the setting up of that party was caused by the

13 behaviour of the Croatian political parties and the expulsion of Serbs

14 from the Croatian towns. That this party became more extreme later on

15 than it had been at the beginning is absolutely not correct. In late 1993

16 and early 1994, new branches of that party emerged, and they participated

17 in the first multi-party democratic elections under the auspices of the

18 Security Council, and two parties came from that first party. One was led

19 by Mr. Babic and the other by Mrs. Solaja, and Babic was elected to

20 parliament. I think he had the majority. As the party was mainly under

21 his leadership, this statement purports to say that he was your man, and

22 I'm saying that he wasn't.

23 Q. Witness Mesic said in his statement that in areas where the Serb

24 Democratic Party took power, the population had been fully cleansed of

25 non-Serbs. That's page --

Page 48994

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the page number.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have heard that 189.000 Croats

3 had lived in the Krajina. I don't know how many remained, but I am

4 absolutely sure that the departure of the Croats from the Republic of

5 Srpska Krajina had been organised by the Croatian state in order to create

6 the impression that the Serbs were expelling the non-Serb population.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Stjepan Mesic, in his statement, 10559 - that's the page number -

9 during his cross-examination said that it was an exaggeration to say that

10 there was an atmosphere of fear among the Serbs in Croatia, but he does

11 accept that there were unseemly and unacceptable statements made and that

12 that is a fact. There were also dismissals which were wrong, as he says,

13 but the people who were dismissed were able to file lawsuits and they won

14 their cases. How do you comment on this assessment of the situation in

15 Croatia? Is it true?

16 A. No. It's completely untrue. Mr. Mesic passed over two facts, and

17 this is something that had never happened anywhere else in the world. The

18 nationality of the Serbs had been taken away from them by decree, which

19 doesn't happen to -- to anyone anywhere else, even if they're criminals.

20 Also, the tenancy rights of the Serbs were rendered null and void. They

21 were not allowed to buy the apartments in which they had tenancy rights,

22 and the homes of those who were expelled were immediately seized and taken

23 away from them. This has never happened anywhere else in the world.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll adjourn for five minutes.

25 --- Break taken at 9.39 a.m.

Page 48995

1 --- On resuming at 9.45 a.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Milosevic.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, you didn't answer the second part of the question.

5 He explained that the Serbs that were dismissed filed lawsuits and won

6 them. Do you know about that?

7 A. Mr. President, I do know that those lawsuits were filed in recent

8 years but not on a massive scale, not as commensurate with the violations

9 that took place. People have lost their will to do so. And let me tell

10 you, they would take out a permit in Serbia, written in Cyrillic, and the

11 Croatians put it in a drawer and wait until the whole thing is written in

12 the Latin script, which means that there was a great deal of delay, and

13 those lawsuits started just this year.

14 Q. Mesic also said that it was true that there were crimes in Croatia

15 and that he always asked for investigations to be launched and that the

16 perpetrators be brought to justice, but that Croatia didn't have enough

17 legal provisions, and then he won the elections because he wanted to see

18 the rule of law prevail in Croatia.

19 Now, do you know that Croatia didn't have any rules, regulations,

20 things like that, and that investigations were called for into the

21 perpetrators of crimes? Do you know anything about that and may we have

22 your comments?

23 A. Well, all I can say, Mr. President, is to say that I'm surprised

24 to hear that the head of state, even if it is the State of Croatia, should

25 speak in that way. He's a man who could have prevented all those crimes

Page 48996

1 from happening. He was always in the top echelons of the Croatian state,

2 so that command responsibility should be applied to Mr. Mesic in this case

3 as well.

4 Q. He said that when he was elected to the Presidency he believed and

5 hoped that he would be able to solve the Yugoslav crisis through political

6 means and that he could contribute to avoiding a war.

7 A. Mr. Mesic had a very good chance had he put in prison all the

8 people who imported weapons in 1990 and 1991 in all the different ways

9 that weapons were brought in. Then that wish would have been realised, if

10 that was indeed the wish that he had.

11 Q. Mesic says that there were no camps in Croatia; is that right?

12 A. That's not right at all. In 1991, at the end of that year, or

13 perhaps it was in 1992, there was an exhibition about the slaughtering of

14 more than a hundred Serbs in Gospic. They were law abiding citizens.

15 Many of them had signed what the Croatian authorities asked them to sign,

16 that is to say -- saying -- writs saying that they were loyal to the

17 Croatian authorities. They were all slaughtered, thrown into pits, as

18 they had been in fascist Croatia in 1941. And furthermore, I can also

19 tell you about the correspondence that I had with the Security Council

20 about a particular camp after which most probably several hundred people

21 were executed in Western Slavonia in a small village there, Marino Selo.

22 And the Security Council -- well, we proposed this investigation and

23 offered to dig up Ovcara. The Security Council gave up the idea because

24 the blame had already been placed squarely -- or, rather, the blame was on

25 the Croatian side rather than on the Serb side.

Page 48997

1 Q. Mesic said here that Croatia defended itself because the JNA,

2 under my command, had attacked Croatian territory, and that nobody

3 attacked the barracks but that they were blocked or put under siege to

4 prevent them from being attacked. Do you know anything about that?

5 A. Mr. President, that's quite nonsensical. I don't know how to

6 describe statements of that kind any more. Millions of people in the

7 world saw the Croats attack the barracks in Split and strangle a young

8 soldier from Macedonia. Now they wish to classify conduct of that kind as

9 an international war. Then it was Croatia and Macedonia who should have

10 been at war, because the first soldier killed was from Macedonia. But all

11 the barracks in Croatia were attacked and, according to UN documents, the

12 attacks on the barracks was termed an aggression.

13 Q. We heard Ruth Vollebaek here -- Knut Vollebaek, and he said that I

14 exerted pressure on the Serbs in Knin to negotiate with the Croats at his

15 proposal. Do you know anything about that? Just the facts, please.

16 A. Please, Mr. President, I didn't understand your question, nor do I

17 know which time frame you're talking about.

18 Q. Well, I'm talking about the time that he conducted negotiations

19 with you. And I'm talking about Knut Vollebaek. He said that I had

20 exerted pressure on you for you to agree to negotiate with the Croats at

21 his proposal. So he asked me to prevail upon you to agree to negotiate

22 with the Croats.

23 Now, did you refuse to negotiate at any point?

24 A. I do apologise. Well, perhaps I'm being too fast for the

25 interpreters, but let me say that Mr. Knut Vollebaek always had open doors

Page 48998

1 for negotiation with the government of Srpska Krajina. I do believe that

2 he went to see you, and he most probably consulted you or informed you of

3 his intentions, and it would be quite mad to suppose that you did not

4 agree to have us negotiate.

5 Q. Yes, but I'm interested in an answer to this question: Was there

6 any need for any pressure to be put on you for you to negotiate in view of

7 the fact that your participation in all negotiations or, rather, the

8 Serbian side and leadership in the Serbian regions, did it refuse to

9 negotiate? Did it refuse to have matters settled? Did it refuse any

10 offers that were made, and so on and so forth? What is your experience in

11 view of the fact that you attended all the negotiations except those --

12 that one set of negotiations in Topusko which were never held?

13 A. There was no refusal on our part except for some wavering, and I

14 omitted to say that yesterday, whether to negotiate on Croatian territory

15 or not, but then we agreed to that too and went to Zagreb to negotiate.

16 So we always agreed. It was just in one negotiations when I was not

17 member of the government that there was a condition put on our side, and

18 that was the beginning of 1995, when it was quite obvious that the

19 Security Council would bring in a new Resolution pursuant to which the

20 status of the peace forces in Yugoslavia would be changed, and in the

21 Republic of Srpska Krajina, because up until then they were called the

22 protection force, and we had from Stoltenberg a draft agreement stating

23 that they would lose this status of protection forces but that they would

24 be called something else, forces for boosting confidence or something like

25 that. And this happened at a point when the American Ambassador Galbraith

Page 48999

1 came up with the famous Z-4 plan in Knin. And I already explained that it

2 had been put forward a number of times before that but not under the name

3 of Z-4. And it was not serious, because it related to negotiations

4 between just two towns and the surrounding parts. And Martic said on that

5 occasion, he told the American ambassador that we would negotiate, we

6 would discuss the agreement when the same status was confirmed for United

7 Nations forces as provided by the Vance Plan. However, this was used to

8 put the blame on Martic and say that he was not cooperating.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jarcevic. I have no further questions.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That completes my

11 examination-in-chief of this witness, Mr. Robinson.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

13 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

16 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, you were born in Bosnia; right?

17 A. Yes, that's right, and I said that; on the 2nd of February, 1942.

18 Q. Just answer my question, no additional information is needed. And

19 you -- afterwards, you lived in, in particular in the period we are

20 concerned about, you lived in Belgrade; right?

21 A. From 1970, yes.

22 Q. You mentioned already that from April to September 1991 you were

23 in Greece, and my question is before April 1991, where were you? Before

24 Greece, where were you stationed?

25 A. In 1990, I worked in the Foreign Affairs Ministry of the SFRY, in

Page 49000

1 the personnel department.

2 Q. Uh-huh. So you were in Belgrade before April 1991?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And after September 1991, were you in Belgrade or elsewhere?

5 A. I lived in Belgrade.

6 Q. And were you stationed after September 1991 in any other country

7 for -- at least for times?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So in relation to the years 1990 to October 1992, you were never

10 in the SAOs in Croatia; correct?

11 A. I apologise, but could you repeat that question?

12 Q. In the years 1990 to your assignment to the RSK in 1992, you never

13 lived in the SAOs in Croatia.

14 A. No.

15 Q. And you also didn't travel there?

16 A. Of course I did. I played at the international chess tournament.

17 Unless I'm very much mistaken, that was in March in 1991 in Pula.

18 Q. Pula, that's in Croatia. That's not in the SAOs, right? It's not

19 in the SAOs. That's more in --

20 A. No, not in the SAO, but I was in Croatia.

21 Q. But in relation to what was going on in the SAOs in that period

22 1990 to mid-1992, you did not make any direct observations on the ground;

23 correct?

24 A. No. I didn't even know anybody from the government of the

25 Republic of Srpska Krajina.

Page 49001

1 Q. And as you didn't know anybody from the governments in Knin or in

2 Erdut, you cannot really help us with any -- any observation regarding

3 their relations with Mr. Milosevic or his cabinet or any other government

4 official in Serbia; right?

5 A. I didn't say I could. I could not.

6 Q. And you also cannot help us with matters related to the Serb TOs

7 and police in the Krajina and in Eastern Slavonia --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not sure what the answer was to that

9 question, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

10 Are you saying that you -- you would not be able to be of any

11 assistance in relation to -- to Mr. Milosevic and his cabinet?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I said that at that

13 time I didn't know a single leader in the Republic of Srpska Krajina, and

14 therefore the fact would emerge that I cannot confirm whether they had any

15 contacts with Mr. Milosevic or what kind at that time.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you.


18 Q. And as you did not have any relation with these people in the

19 Krajina or Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, you cannot help us

20 with matters related to their TOs or their police forces either; right?

21 A. Well, if you're asking for my assistance, then I can make my

22 conclusions and give you my impressions and the impressions that the

23 inhabitants of Serbia gained at that time, if you're interested in hearing

24 that.

25 Q. I didn't ask you that. I actually asked -- I actually just wanted

Page 49002

1 you to confirm that you cannot really help us there, in relation to the

2 TOs or their subordination or coordination with the JNA and the like. For

3 that period of time, you can't; right?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that the witness doesn't

7 understand the question properly, because you're using questions like

8 "being of assistance." If you were to ask him whether he knows about it,

9 then he would give you a yes or no answer, but "could you be of

10 assistance," that is not in the spirit of our language and it's difficult

11 for him to understand this expression. If you asked a simple does he know

12 about something, he can say whether he does or not, but "could you be of

13 assistance" and that kind of turn of phrase is difficult for him to

14 understand because, according to what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff is saying here,

15 it would appear that the witness knows nothing about anything that went on

16 in Krajina and that he just parachuted into the area like a foreign

17 minister.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jarcevic, what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff is really

19 putting to you is that you don't have any evidence to give this Court

20 based on your direct knowledge, personal knowledge, in relation to the TOs

21 or their subordination or coordination with the JNA. Do you accept that

22 proposition?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, Mr. Robinson.


25 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, you were an official in the SFRY Ministry of Foreign

Page 49003

1 Affairs, as you told us. What did you do in the period from April 1992,

2 when the SFRY did not exist any longer, until October 1992?

3 A. I worked in the Foreign Ministry, occupying the same post that I

4 held beforehand. It was just the circumstances that changed and the

5 structure within the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, because the cadres, the

6 personnel from Slovenia and Croatia, started to leave in an organised

7 fashion.

8 Q. Thank you. When -- when you became minister of foreign affairs of

9 the RSK in October 1992, did you continue to live in Belgrade?

10 A. Yes, and I explained that yesterday. I said why.

11 Q. As I -- if I understand you correctly, you mentioned that the RSK

12 Ministry of Foreign Affairs was actually located in Belgrade. Is that

13 what you mean?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So even after October 1992, you did not go to Knin or Erdut;

16 correct?

17 A. Of course I went, madam. I went officially at least once a week.

18 Q. But as you were living in Belgrade, you cannot really tell us, and

19 you cannot -- you do not know what Mr. Lazarevic and the other local --

20 local officials were doing on a daily basis and with whom they met; right?

21 A. Well, that's not a clear question at all. I can know what

22 Mr. Lazarevic did at the point in time when I was involved in certain

23 affairs.

24 Q. You saw Mr. Lazarevic when you met him on negotiations and the

25 like, when you went abroad and elsewhere, but you did not observe what he

Page 49004

1 was doing in the region when he met Mr. Hadzic and others. You don't know

2 that because you were not there; right?

3 A. Well, madam, I said that he lived in Kordun and that Hadzic was a

4 long way away from him and that his affairs in Kordun related to officers,

5 not heads of state.

6 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, you actually -- you were the liaison person between

7 the RSK and the Belgrade authorities; right? That was your main purpose

8 of your office in Belgrade; correct?

9 A. No. You're very wrong on that score, madam. That's not how it

10 was.

11 Q. Who suggested you for the position, for the RSK position?

12 A. Well, I'll answer that question if the Trial Chamber and

13 Mr. Robinson allow me to explain it, because you can't have a short answer

14 to a question like that.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a member of the Association of

17 Serbs from Bosnia-Herzegovina, and as I've already said, as we -- I was

18 one of the few babies that survived in my generation. We were very much

19 afraid for the destiny of our people in the Krajina. And what happened

20 once was that a doctor came to see me, Dr. Nikic. He was a man from the

21 neighbouring village next to me. His name was Stanislav Nikic. And he

22 had attended the medical military academy in Belgrade, and he happened to

23 learn that the Croats were preparing to slaughter people in Bosnia and in

24 the place of Livno and a village near Duvno, and he said, "Slobodan, we

25 have to save our people. And this year Portugal is the chair for the

Page 49005

1 European Community, and you have to call up the Portuguese ambassador."

2 At that point in time, many of us Serbs from Bosnia rallied

3 together, and I did indeed call up the ambassador. I'm sorry that I've

4 forgotten his name and surname now, but that was in 1992. And I said,

5 "Mr. Ambassador, the Croatian army, on the basis of our information, is

6 preparing to slaughter a whole village in the Duvno municipality and the

7 village -- name of the village is Rascani." And I said they were also

8 preparing a pogrom and slaughter of the majority population in the town of

9 Livno because the centre of the town of Livno was inhabited by Serbs. And

10 these two municipalities, in the Second World War, were -- 72 per cent

11 were slaughtered during World War II in one of these places and 89 per

12 cent in another.

13 He was very nice, he said just spell out for us the names of those

14 places in English --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've allowed you to give an answer to the

16 question, not in an abbreviated form, but you are carrying on much too

17 long. Please get to the point.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did warn you that this would be

19 the point in time when I decided to take up the post of foreign minister

20 of Krajina, because people came to realise this, they saw what was

21 happening, and we saved the people in those parts. And everything --

22 everybody congratulated me.

23 And the ambassador said, "Mr. Jarcevic, my school friend is the

24 foreign minister of Portugal, and I'll call the ambassador in Zagreb

25 tomorrow, and our ambassador will go and see Tudjman straight away the

Page 49006

1 next day, and he will prevail upon him not to touch those people over

2 there." And that was the decisive moment. And the Serbs who listened to

3 that telephone conversation that I had put me forward for the post of

4 foreign minister.

5 Well, there you have it. It wasn't too long an explanation.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.


8 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, you didn't know the people that -- the authorities

9 in the Krajina or in Erdut. They didn't know you either. So my question

10 is: The Serbs -- which Serbs proposed you? Not the ones from the region;

11 right? Other Serbs.

12 A. Well, I've told you; the Serbs from Bosnia, Bosnian Krajina.

13 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, you claimed that no Croats were expelled from Serbia

14 or persecuted in Serbia during the events. That's what you said

15 yesterday. And I would like to put to you a report of the UN. It's --

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, it's an exhibit used earlier in

17 these proceedings. It's Exhibit 771. It's in the English language, and

18 we could put it on the ELMO. It's -- please go ahead. I would like to

19 have on the ELMO paragraph 123. It's on page 34. Page 34, paragraph 123.

20 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, this is a report of the General Assembly -- for the

21 General Assembly of the 14th of November, 1992. On page 34, it deals with

22 events in Vojvodina, and it says here in paragraph 123: "The outbreak of

23 fighting --"

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can the picture be improved? Apparently it can't

25 be done.

Page 49007


2 Q. Then I will read parts of it. "The outbreak of fighting in

3 neighbouring parts of Croatia and the influx of Serbian refugees coincided

4 with an increase in incidents of harassment and violence against non-Serbs

5 in Vojvodina, including rape, shootings, death threats, the use of

6 explosives against homes and churches, and forcible eviction."

7 And a little bit further down in that same paragraph, it says:

8 "The report cites the example of Hrtkovci where 500 refugee families,

9 including 350 former servicemen, were resettled in May 1992. A campaign

10 of intimidation and harassment took place, including beatings and

11 culminating in the death of one person and the departure of 600 persons

12 who sought refuge in Croatia."

13 And on the next page, in paragraph 124, it continues: "The town

14 of Novi Slankamen has also been the scene of many violent incidents. A

15 Catholic cultural centre was destroyed and a Roman Catholic Church was

16 damaged in 1991, a number of Croatian homes were damaged by machine-gun

17 fire or explosives, one person was raped, and many others were beaten or

18 threatened. In the city of Sombor, explosives damaged a church on the

19 night of the 31st of December, 1991 - 1 January 1992, and two nights later

20 two Croatian restaurants and the home of a leader of a Croatian political

21 party were damaged by explosives. These crimes were announced on the

22 local radio by the paramilitary leader Arkan. Ethnic Croatians have been

23 told that they must leave by a certain date, under threat of death. In

24 Subotica, where Hungarians are the largest ethnic group, religious sites

25 have been attacked of Hungarians or vandalised repeatedly since 1991. The

Page 49008

1 cathedral was damaged by explosives. An attempt was made to burn a

2 religious school, a monastery in Bac, classified as ..." and so forth and

3 so forth.

4 And it says in the next paragraph: "Local authorities and

5 political leaders who met with the delegation indicated that an estimate

6 of 90.000 Croats and Hungarians and other minorities have fled Vojvodina."

7 Mr. Jarcevic, you were living in Serbia, and so you must know

8 about these events, don't you?

9 A. Madam, I grew up in Vojvodina. I got to Vojvodina when I was age

10 4, and I am perfectly familiar with the situation in that province. This

11 is my question to your question: The structure of government of the

12 Republic of Serbia did not participate in this. On the contrary, they

13 prevented possible incidents from breaking out and that could have had

14 even worse consequences than the ones that you've been reading about now.

15 Allow me just to say one more thing: Honest people, even from the

16 office in Hrtkovci, gave the authorities of Serbia information to the

17 effect that most of the inhabitants of this village had close cooperation

18 with the HDZ, collected money, and sent that money to arm Croatian

19 paramilitaries. Of course that kind of behaviour caused a reaction on the

20 part of those who were coming in from Croatia as refugees. I believe that

21 the proportions of these crimes are minimal because the organs of Serbia

22 and Yugoslavia managed to stop and prevent what could have happened had it

23 been in the hands of the volunteers and people who had come from Croatia.

24 May I just add one more thing? As opposed to Croatia, where the

25 entire state structure took part in the persecution of Serbs --

Page 49009

1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

2 A. All right.

3 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, we also had a witness --

4 MR. KAY: Can I intervene? The Prosecution took three and a half

5 to four minutes to put that question, which was a very detailed passage

6 from a UN text, probably has very, very marginal relevance to the case in

7 this trial. It's 1992, a report of November 1992. This witness is

8 dealing with Croatia, which is a passage of the indictment from August

9 1991 to June 1992. We're moving off into Vojvodina. If time is that

10 valuable for the Prosecution, as they continually assert, perhaps we

11 should be dealing with more relevant materials rather than reading out

12 long passages of text and then trying to stop the witness from answering

13 it in full.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Kay. I'll take note of that.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why did you raise Vojvodina?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I raised Vojvodina because this witness told

18 us during the examination-in-chief that no Croat was harmed in Serbia and

19 that there was no persecution of Croats in Serbia, and that is not true.

20 And this witness should know it, because he was there, and he actually

21 says he knows very well about Vojvodina. And when we -- when we speak

22 about -- about the importance of these events for the trial, of course the

23 Croatia indictment deals only with the years 1991 and 1992, but this is a

24 joint trial, and how the JCE cooperated throughout the years 1990 to 1999,

25 that's a key issue in this case, and this is what we are also talking

Page 49010

1 about. When we speak about Croatia, it is about the relationships of

2 people spanning the whole period of time. And I will deal -- I will deal

3 with this witness as he does not really know about what was going on in

4 Croatia in 1991 and parts of 1992. I will mostly deal with events that

5 are not in Croatia at that time.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: He did want to add one more thing.

7 What was it that you wanted to say? You indicated earlier that

8 you wanted to say something else, and I'll hear it briefly.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me just repeat: The

10 government structures of Serbia and Yugoslavia were just preventing

11 possible tragedies. It is a sheer miracle that this was not even on a

12 larger scale. Nothing more to add.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We heard that from you already. Yes.


15 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, we also heard a witness, and it's witness C-047, who

16 were actually in the region, in Vojvodina, during the events, and he told

17 us --

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And, Your Honour, it's the witness speaking

19 about Hrtkovci and the other events at T21578, T21641. Basically that's

20 the most parts of it.

21 Q. And this witness actually told us that the persecution campaigns

22 in Subotica and Hrtkovci took part after Mr. Vojislav Seselj rallied in

23 these places and that the authorities did not prevent these things from

24 happening. What do you say to this? Is that also what you heard?

25 A. Madam, Seselj did not have any influence over the spread of any

Page 49011

1 kind of crime in Serbia. He was just calling for the defence of the

2 imperiled Serb people.

3 Q. I would like to ask you in relation to another passage of that

4 same report, because you mentioned the media and the role of the media in

5 Serbia. It's again Exhibit 771. Could it be put on the ELMO. And it's

6 page 28, paragraphs 95 and 96.

7 You mentioned, Mr. Jarcevic, in your examination-in-chief that the

8 media in Serbia were rather moderate when they reported about the events

9 in Croatia and elsewhere, and I would like to quote findings from the UN,

10 from the report.

11 It says here in paragraph 95: "The government-controlled

12 electronic media and press have engaged in a one-sided and nationalistic

13 propaganda campaign. The official media have done nothing to distance

14 themselves from the politics of intolerance, and, as a result, have fed

15 the fires of hatred."

16 And a little bit further down, in paragraph 96, it says: "It has

17 been observed that quite often facts are distorted, data falsified, and

18 sometimes atrocities invented or deliberately exposed in order to

19 contribute to an atmosphere of mutual hatred. Media are using offensive

20 and abusive appellations. The activities of various international bodies

21 are presented in a false light, and the atmosphere of siege has been

22 created." And so on.

23 That, Mr. -- What do you say? This is completely different from

24 what you told us, Mr. Jarcevic.

25 A. Madam, this report does not correspond to the truth. Could you

Page 49012

1 imagine the expulsion of 400.000 Serbs from Croatia? That was not even

2 registered properly in Serbia. It's only now that people are finding out

3 about this. And what about the UN report? Why did it never provide this

4 kind of information except for Boutros-Ghali's report dated the 15th of

5 May, 1993? And that is a report that was incomplete, at that.

6 Q. In relation to that same exhibit, would you please -- Usher, would

7 you please put page 25 on the ELMO. It's paragraph 78.

8 Mr. Jarcevic, you also mentioned the Vance Plan and how the

9 Croatian side violated it, and I would like to put something to you about

10 the Serb side. And as you were at that time already the minister of

11 foreign affairs, you may be able to tell us. It's dealing with Sector

12 South here in this paragraph 78. That's the Knin Krajina. It says here:

13 "In Sector South, part of the so-called 'Republic of Krajina' local

14 authorities practised discrimination."

15 And then further down: "This is of great certain of United

16 Nations staff who collect evidence of murders, robberies, looting, and

17 other forms of criminal violence often related to ethnic cleansing, where

18 in accordance with a mandate, such evidence is transferred to the local

19 authorities. The latter are reluctant to take action if not overtly

20 uncooperative. UNPROFOR officials explained that Serbian militia which

21 were to be disbanded have, in many cases, simply 'changed uniforms,' often

22 working under the auspices of such groups as the Special Police, Border

23 Police, or Multi-purpose Brigades. Until demilitarisation has been

24 completed, UNPROFOR officials believe they cannot guarantee the security

25 either of refugees hoping to return or of the remaining minority

Page 49013

1 populations."

2 Mr. Jarcevic, this is happening now at a time when you were the

3 foreign minister of the RSK. This did happen, didn't it?

4 A. Madam, have I not explained that very nicely? Did I not explain

5 it nicely yesterday? Our police could not have remained without automatic

6 weapons. That is primarily what it has to do about. And we had a meeting

7 with Cyrus Vance in November in Knin, and then Mr. Martic explained that

8 all these units that are mentioned here exist in any other state.

9 In terms of equipping the Ministry of the Interior, we did not

10 really deviate from --

11 Q. Let me stop you here. This paragraph that I read out was only

12 partly about the violation of the Vance Plan regarding demilitarisation.

13 It was also about ethnic cleansing practices conducted by the Serbs. And

14 just to add to this --

15 Usher, would you please put on the ELMO paragraph 83. That's the

16 next page, related to Sector East, Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

17 Srem.

18 It says here: "Ethnic cleansing continues to be carried out by

19 militias and local Serbian authorities. The few Croatians, Hungarians,

20 Ukrainians and Slovaks who have not yet left voluntarily are faced with

21 persistent, and often extremely violent, forms of intimidation."

22 The next paragraph: "Catholic churches have been destroyed in an

23 attempt to erase all forms of non-Serbian institutions."

24 Mr. Jarcevic, my question to you is: That's true. Ethnic

25 cleansing took place at that time, and you know about it; correct?

Page 49014

1 A. Ethnic cleansing was not carried out by the organs of the Republic

2 of the Serb Krajina. There were criminals and criminals were prosecuted,

3 for the most part.

4 With the permission of the Chamber, I would like to place a

5 document on the overhead projector where you can see that a man who killed

6 Croats was arrested in Sector South that we have just been discussing.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that can be done in

8 re-examination, I think.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I would agree with that. If Mr. Milosevic wishes

10 to raise that --

11 MR. KAY: I was going to say just his answer to a question. It

12 was a question which had about three questions within it, and he was told

13 off for responding to a different part of the question. He then wants to

14 answer that other question, and he's got a document to prove it. In my

15 submission, he -- with Your Honours' leave, he would be entitled to

16 respond to it in that way and then the Prosecutor has to deal with the

17 information that he is advancing as part of his response. It's for the

18 Prosecutor to then deal with the witness's answer in cross-examination.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. I'll allow you to introduce the

20 document.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, this is the Territorial

22 Defence of the Republic of the Serb Krajina providing the following

23 information: That on the 17th -- can't really see it; right? I beg your

24 pardon.

25 "On the 11th of March, 1992, in Skabrnja, five locals of Croat

Page 49015

1 ethnicity were killed whereas in Gornja Zemunik four locals also of Croat

2 ethnicity. One person, Maricic Boze Stevo, an ethnic Serb, is suspected

3 of having committed all of this, from Zemunik Gornji. The suspect is a

4 member of the 3rd Brigade of the Territorial Defence of Benkovac. The

5 mentioned person was brought into custody at the public security station

6 in Benkovac. We still do not have information about the names of the

7 victims. The motives for the commission of the crime are still something

8 that we do not know.

9 "Two Catholic churches were destroyed as well in the village of

10 Perusic and Podgradje, the south-eastern part of our municipalities. The

11 churches were almost completely destroyed, and also some graves were

12 demolished." Oh, I thought I was reading slower. I do apologise.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the speaker. Thank

14 you.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be useful,

16 Mr. Robinson, if this would be on the overhead projector. This document

17 has not been translated previously, and then the interpreters can see what

18 they are interpreting and then the rest of us can have a look as well and

19 so on.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please put it on the overhead projector.

21 Mr. Jarcevic, can you tell us what this document is? Where does it come

22 from?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document speaks about crimes

24 that --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is its official status? Does it have one?

Page 49016

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a report of the military

2 organs of the Republic of Serb Krajina. It can be seen that such crimes

3 were not committed by state structures. On the contrary, the man was

4 arrested and prosecuted. You cannot really shift the blame now to the

5 government of the Republic of the Serb Krajina in terms of something that

6 was committed by an individual. Had we organised that, then the

7 perpetrator would have been hidden.


9 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, where does it say in the document that the person

10 was convicted or even indicted? Does it say that anywhere in that

11 document?

12 A. Madam, in the archives of the Republic of Serb Krajina, all of

13 that exists. It was all seized and taken to Zagreb. This is one of the

14 very few documents that was kept from the area that you're interested in.

15 You've just started reading about the eastern part of the Krajina now. A

16 man was convicted to several years in prison, a man who killed several

17 Croats and one or two Hungarians, if I'm not mistaken. He was tried by

18 the court of the Republic of the Serb Krajina. Due to our lack of

19 archives now, I cannot bring you these documents, and I cannot bring you

20 the judgement, but you can obtain all of that in Zagreb.

21 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, what sentence did this man get? How -- for what was

22 he convicted? Do you know that? Do you know that this report really

23 resulted in a conviction?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Or in a trial?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you. The Republic

Page 49017

1 of the Serb Krajina functioned under those very difficult circumstances as

2 a state. Nevertheless, there were many trials in Krajina. I cannot tell

3 you about each and every individual trial; I dealt in other matters. But

4 you have a minister of justice in Krajina. There was one, there was

5 another one, there was yet a third one. You can call them and they can

6 testify.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think we can move on, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please move on.


10 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, you --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it's time for the break. We

12 will adjourn for 20 minutes.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, during your testimony, you gave some population

18 figures regarding Serbs in Croatia, and you said, inter alia, that

19 according to your findings, 1 million Serbs lived in Croatia. And I would

20 like to put to you some statistics. The first item is from the population

21 statistics from the Croatian Statistical Institute, and it's in the

22 Croatian language, but the population figures on the third page speak for

23 themselves. So when they are on the ELMO, it's easy for everyone to

24 understand.

25 Could we please have the third page on the ELMO. It's the

Page 49018

1 statistical report related to the census of 1991, and it also shows the

2 other years. And we have here, when we look under Srbi, we have here the

3 figures for the Serbs, and it says here for 1991, 581.000 and some -- and

4 a few. And a little bit further down in relation to the percentages, it

5 says Srbi, 12.2 per cent. That's actually the same figures that

6 Mr. Kostic, who testified not long before you, also spoke about. How --

7 how -- your figure of 1 million Serbs, that is not reflected here, and you

8 don't have any foundation for that; right? No official foundation.

9 A. Yes, madam. I have to say that this is written in the Serbian

10 language because the Croats are the only people in the world who have

11 renounced their language. It hasn't been used for over a hundred years.

12 This official data, as I said yesterday, is a falsification. It

13 doesn't represent the Serb -- the figures accurately. Mario Nobilo, the

14 Croatian ambassador, actually denied this information when he said that

15 251 -- 251.000 Serbs lived in the Krajina and another number lived

16 somewhere else, and if you add all this up, you will find the correct

17 number.

18 I have also mentioned that the number of Siptars in Kosovo has

19 been exaggerated by two and a half times. This was the Yugoslavia in

20 which non-Serb cadres were preparing its dissolution. My name is

21 Jarcevic.

22 Q. I would like to put to you also another source relating to the

23 official source relating to the figures, and that is actually the Yugoslav

24 survey from 1992 that was produced in the Statistical Institute in

25 Belgrade.

Page 49019

1 And please also put on the ELMO the second page of this document.

2 As you can see, Mr. Jarcevic, we have that same figure for 1991

3 census for the Serbs, and the same percentage again.

4 A. I repeat: I do not trust these percentages. They were taken over

5 from Croatia. As I said yesterday, at republican level, censuses were

6 falsified by reducing the numbers of Serbs.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: What about -- what about this publication? It's

8 from an institute --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't trust it.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: It's by an institute founded by the Assembly of the

11 FRY.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is information taken over from

13 Zagreb. As for the information from Zagreb, I've already told you

14 everything about it three times.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that. I'm not asking you about that

16 at the moment. I'm asking you about this document called the Yugoslav

17 Survey, and I'd be grateful if you'd concentrate on that.

18 Can you tell me why you don't trust this publication.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said yesterday that we in Knin

20 looked at these figures and arrived at a number of Serbs amounting to a

21 little over a million.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Jarcevic.

23 That's a point about the accuracy of the figures. What is it you say

24 makes you not trust this publication? Is it anything other than the

25 inaccuracy you maintain in the figures?

Page 49020

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you have understood me. We

2 verified this information in Knin and arrived at other figures. Of course

3 we don't have our archives now.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll ask it differently: Do you know this

5 publication?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have any other reason for doubting that it's

8 a genuine -- that it would make a genuine attempt to reflect statistics

9 accurately?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Statistical information in this

11 publication is what it is, but I do not believe that the number of Serbs

12 is the number published in this publication. I think I've been quite

13 clear. I don't know what else to say. Just as I don't believe that

14 1.700.000 Siptars lived in Kosovo and Metohija.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


17 Q. With the help of the usher, I would like to put to you another

18 statistic from that same Yugoslav Survey Institute situated in Belgrade,

19 and now it is from 1997. And the second page, please. The second page of

20 this report, statistical report. And it's about the structure of the --

21 and the numbers of the persons -- war affected persons by former place of

22 residence. And I would like you to look at table V in the middle of that

23 page 95, as it says. We have here from Croatia the persons affected by

24 the war, and we have here a figure from the UNPAs of 284.007, and from

25 other parts of Croatia of 52.992.

Page 49021

1 Mr. Jarcevic, these figures have nothing to do with what you told

2 us about; that is, 471.000 Serbs living in Croatian towns and 400.000

3 expelled of these.

4 And -- yes. That's basically this. What you told us about who

5 was expelled from the towns, it is not reflected in these figures here, is

6 it?

7 A. Madam, it is reflected in the document issued by Boutros

8 Boutros-Ghali on the 15th of May. There is a document here, handed over

9 by Mr. Milosevic, showing that only in Yugoslavia and the UN protected

10 areas 251.000 Serbs were expelled. That's his figure, not mine. As for

11 the figure of 471.000, that's the figure provided by the Croatian

12 ambassador. I only noted those figures; they don't come from me.

13 As for the statistical information published by Serbia or the

14 former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which is now the state of Serbia

15 and Montenegro, the state union, don't trust those figures, because all

16 those who in the meantime have taken Serbian and Montenegrin citizenship

17 or gone to third countries were immediately erased from the lists of

18 refugees.

19 Last year in May, the Government of Republika Srpska in exile

20 handed over a letter to President Kostunica, Tadic, and the speaker of

21 parliament, asking for this practice to be stopped. Otherwise, no

22 information will exist any longer about Croatia expelling anyone. This is

23 the trap into which you have now fallen.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you just remind us of the document from

25 Boutros Boutros-Ghali which you say support the figures that you gave.

Page 49022

1 What document is that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a report by Boutros

3 Boutros-Ghali to the Security Council of the 15th of May, 1993, and it

4 relates to the period from 1990 to early 1993. In English, it's page 4.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm trying to determine what to do with this

6 document from Boutros Boutros-Ghali.

7 Mr. Kay? We should have it in evidence.

8 JUDGE KWON: Tab 18.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the paragraph of that document that you

10 say supports?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's on page 4 of the text

12 in English, and Mr. Milosevic has the text in Serbian.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I may be mistaken, but I don't see any

14 figures of that kind in this report, and I ...

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is. Page 4, line 1.

16 MR. KAY: Tab 16, I think, is -- of Exhibit 338. I think that's

17 where we are, according to my notes, when the witness gave evidence that

18 Serbs started to leave from 1990 and 271.000 [sic] Serbs had fled from the

19 Krajina, as noted in the UN Secretary-General's report of May 1993. At

20 that stage in his evidence, he was dealing with Exhibit 338, tab 16.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 251.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Page 1.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's tab 16?

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, tab 16, page 1.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour in tab 18 --

Page 49023

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Apparently it's tab 16, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's also -- I just found it also in tab 18.

3 It's paragraph 10, and we find in this paragraph 10 also the figures of

4 people fleeing to Serbia, and it's named here -- it's said 251.000.

5 Q. But, Mr. Jarcevic, these figures that are in that report, they

6 actually match the findings of the Yugoslav Survey Institute. They also

7 mention here 284.000 from the UNPAs, and 52.000 from the other parts. And

8 if you look on the next page, the next page, this institute actually looks

9 even more closely at these population moves, and you find here a table VI

10 where it is divided according to years, and the years 1991, 1992, and

11 1993, are selected here as well as the year 1995. And you see that these

12 figures are much, much lower than what you claim.

13 Can you help us with that? And it's now a Yugoslav institute

14 controlled by the Yugoslav state. It's nothing to do with the Croats.

15 A. Madam, I have told you what the practice was. Anyone who took the

16 citizenship of Serbia and Montenegro was no longer considered a refugee.

17 Tens of thousands of people who at the time of this census were there went

18 to foreign countries, such as Canada, Australia, and so on. None of these

19 countries gave us the information we asked for in 1993. The number of

20 people who fled to those countries is not less than the numbers who fled

21 to Serbia. You don't have those figures, just as I never had them.

22 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, this is a table -- both tables deal not with

23 refugees but war affected persons by former place of residence. It's not

24 just refugees. It's -- that's at least my understanding of this report.

25 A. Madam, I haven't invented anything. I put forward two figures;

Page 49024

1 the one provide by the Croatian Ambassador Nobilo whose document I don't

2 have because it was seized by the Croatian police, and the Ghali report.

3 If 251.000 Serbs were expelled from two areas which were suffering from

4 sanctions, where there were no jobs and no possibility of new life, how

5 many people then fled to countries which were providing better conditions

6 and which were issuing visas to such people in those years with a very

7 short and simple procedure? Then you can imagine the extent of the crimes

8 against the Serbs in Croatia if you consider all these other aspects that

9 are not contained in the document you are showing us.

10 Q. Mr. -- Mr. Jarcevic, do you accept that the data that are compiled

11 here in this Yugoslav survey are actually prepared by the official bodies

12 of the Yugoslav state, and they're acting according to the guidelines for

13 preparing statistics? Do you accept that?

14 A. Madam, I do not accept that this information contains all the

15 facts about the Serb people expelled from Croatia. It doesn't mention the

16 Serbs who fled to Canada, for example. That's why these figures cannot

17 represent the whole issue of Serbs from Croatia. Ask Australia, Canada,

18 the USA, Germany. As I said yesterday, the Germans said they would not

19 forcibly send those Serbs back to Croatia, but they regretted the fact

20 that they had the greatest expenses and costs in Europe because of these

21 refugees, and this information is not contained here. I can't be any

22 clearer than that.

23 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, are you aware that the state commission that

24 prepares the census and that actually reviews the results, that this

25 commission in Belgrade monitors the taking of the censuses in the -- all

Page 49025

1 through Yugoslavia? Were you aware of that?

2 A. Of course I am, madam, but I've told you what methods they used.

3 Anyone who took citizenship, and many were forced to do so, were no longer

4 -- was no longer included in the figures you are reading out. And the

5 same goes for third countries. While I don't have the right to ask you

6 questions, but --

7 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, I obviously didn't make myself understood. I was

8 now referring to the census data in general that we spoke about before we

9 came to these other figures. The ones for the survey in 1991, were you

10 aware that the state commission monitored -- from Belgrade, monitored the

11 census-taking throughout the former Yugoslavia and thus the Croatian

12 government or, rather, officials acted accordingly? Do you know that?

13 A. I know that, madam, but the Yugoslav organs did not monitor

14 anything in other republics. They simply took for granted what the

15 republican statistical organisations provided them with.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I would like to tender those

17 three documents into evidence, because the witness has dealt with it --

18 with them and knows about them.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, they're admitted.


21 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, you also dealt with the document tab 13 of the

22 Defence exhibit. Can we please have it again on the ELMO. That was the

23 document related to Marica Varicak.

24 A. Varicak.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 49026

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you give the documents a number, please,

2 those just admitted.

3 THE REGISTRAR: From the Croatian Statistical Institute for 1991

4 will be Exhibit 956.

5 The extract from the Yugoslav Survey for 1992 will be Exhibit 957.

6 And the extract from the Yugoslav Survey for 1997 will be 958.


8 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, looking at Defence Exhibit 338, tab 13, that's now

9 on the ELMO, and we don't have a translation, but is it correct that

10 nowhere in this document there is an indication that the 21 incidents of

11 explosions or the 381 incidents from 1991 on explosions and 673 incidents

12 of 1992, nowhere in this document is a reference that the victims or the

13 property -- that the owners of the property were Serbs; right? There's no

14 indication here.

15 A. Madam, I expressed my opinion about this yesterday. Let me just

16 tell you that Marica Varicak is a Serb from Lika. This is an area that

17 was part of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. She resided in Zadar, and

18 she was one of the 28.000 Serbs expelled from that town.

19 This document was used during court proceedings to demonstrate

20 that Serb houses were demolished. Marica Varicak --

21 Q. You don't need to repeat what you have told us about the case of

22 Marica Varicak. Nowhere in this document, in this, except for the head

23 Marica Varicak, is the ethnicity of the owner mentioned of any of these

24 other incidents; correct? It doesn't say in these two paragraphs dealing

25 with the figures of 21, 318 [sic], or 673, it doesn't mention the

Page 49027

1 ethnicity of the owners; right?

2 A. Well, of course they're not mentioned. This area was controlled

3 by the Croats. We won't conclude that it was Croatian houses that were

4 demolished. It was only Serb houses that were demolished.

5 Q. In that municipality of Zadar, there are also the villages

6 Skabrnja and Nadin; correct? They were part of Zadar municipality, and

7 they could be in that figures, too; right?

8 A. Yes, but I can't answer that question. The organ that issued this

9 document would most probably be able to tell you. Among these incidents,

10 there may have been Croatian buildings, but they were mainly in Zadar.

11 Zadar was one of the towns that was destroyed in Croatia mainly because

12 companies and Serb houses dominated -- predominated in the centre of

13 Zadar. A year later, there was only grass growing there, as if a park had

14 been planned there. I have a friend who had a house in Zadar, and he says

15 he now has an English lawn on the site of his house.

16 I cannot tell you whether this includes areas which were partly in

17 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, because as you know, in 1993, on the 22nd

18 of January, the Croats perpetrated an aggression there, and then they

19 burnt and destroyed --

20 Q. Let me stop you here. We are digressing again from the issue we

21 are talking about.

22 This is a document related to these incidents of explosion and

23 damage in the municipality of Zadar, and I asked you whether Skabrnja and

24 Nadin would be included, and your answer, if I understand you correctly,

25 is yes, you wouldn't know that. Just --

Page 49028

1 A. I cannot answer that question. I don't know, because this was

2 issued for more than one court proceeding, and I was not able to know what

3 these court proceedings were about.

4 Q. And Zadar was also shelled by the JNA; correct? And so damages

5 could also be caused by this shelling, isn't it?

6 A. Yes, but it doesn't say anything about shelling here. It only

7 speaks of fires and explosions. Explosions, well, bombs have to be

8 planted. I don't think that shelling can be described as explosions.

9 Q. But shelling can actually cause fire; right?

10 A. Well, yes, fires, yes, but not explosive -- not shelling.

11 Explosives planted by hand. I'm not a strategic expert or a soldier, but

12 my general education allows me to make that kind of conclusion.

13 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, you got aware at some point in time of the killing

14 of about 260 people from the Vukovar Hospital; correct?

15 A. Correct, madam. And I'd like us to talk about that matter.

16 Q. You actually wrote a letter to the Mothers of Vukovar, Association

17 of Mothers of Vukovar, and I would like to put this letter to you and to

18 everyone else.

19 Mr. Jarcevic, is this your letter that you wrote to the

20 Association Vukovar Mothers in relation to the missing?

21 A. In relation to the missing persons, yes, this is a letter that we

22 sent from Zagreb when we were negotiating, just before the agreement of

23 the 29th of March, 1994, was signed. And I took part in drafting the

24 letter, although somebody else signed in my place, but I can give you a

25 sample of my signature if need be. The mothers asked whether in Serbia

Page 49029

1 there were any detained Croatian soldiers, and by this we told them that

2 in Serbia, or in Yugoslavia, there were no prisoners, no people who were

3 -- had been taken prisoner, and if there were any, we would help them to

4 have them freed.

5 We did not speak about people who -- any people who were killed or

6 buried in the famous or infamous mass grave at Ovcara, but we can discuss

7 that too.

8 Q. But, Mr. Jasarevic -- Jarcevic, sorry. Mr. Jarcevic, you knew

9 that the mothers of Vukovar were actually looking for the missing, and you

10 did not indicate in this letter that there was a mass grave. This is a

11 letter from 1994, and you knew at that time, you were aware that there was

12 a mass grave at Ovcara, didn't you?

13 A. Yes, that's an excellent question, madam. The Croatian government

14 and Security Council rejected our proposal in 1993 to dig up Ovcara and to

15 identify the bodies. And this rejection of that proposal is contained in

16 a letter from the High Commissioner of Canada to the UN, William Fenrick,

17 to the Security Council. I can tell you of the correspondence that we had

18 with him over a six-month period.

19 I was the man who in 1993, sometime in May, unless I'm very much

20 mistaken, offered to dig up Ovcara.

21 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, let's go through these step-by-step. We heard

22 evidence from Professor Dr. Strinovic, and it's transcript page 17938 and

23 17038. He mentioned that the first gravesite was actually discovered in

24 Ovcara in 1992. And he further told us that the exhumations started in

25 1993, but that the exhumations were stopped by the Serb side and could

Page 49030

1 only conclude in 1996. Is he correct in saying that?

2 A. No, that's not correct at all. There's a Security Council letter

3 addressed to Prime Minister Bjegovic, which states that there would be no

4 digging up in Ovcara, according to plan, or in Marino Selo, which are Serb

5 graves, because there is no money in the Security Council to do so. That

6 is literally what they said.

7 Q. Let me just ask you this: Is it correct that the first trace of

8 the gravesite was discovered in 1992? Do you know that?

9 A. In view of the fact that I had a meeting with William Fenrick in

10 the Yugoslavia Hotel in Belgrade, the fact is that before that year 1993,

11 Fenrick had information about that mass grave and he was astounded when I

12 told him, without consulting the head of state who was from the area, so

13 without consulting the Prime Minister, that I guaranteed the digging up of

14 the mass grave, and at that point in time he just couldn't believe it. I

15 confirmed this to him in writing.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have to return now to the

17 Exhibit 771. That's the Security Council report of 7th of November, 1992.

18 And please put on the ELMO paragraph 86.

19 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, just look at the ELMO where there is said that:

20 "... the forensic expert accompanying the Special Rapporteur on his

21 second mission located a potential mass gravesite approximately 2

22 kilometres south-east of the farming village of Ovcara ..." The grave is

23 then described a little bit more, and also the -- the consideration that

24 it may be the disappeared from the Vukovar Hospital. And there is also

25 mention that the Special Rapporteur had requested that UNPROFOR provide

Page 49031

1 round-the-clock protection of the gravesite, and there is also mention

2 that the Special Rapporteur had informed the commission of experts

3 recently about this.

4 So it was actually the UN who discovered the mass grave and then

5 guarded it and informed Mr. Fenrick or the commission of experts. Isn't

6 that right?

7 A. Mr. Fenrick came to see me to ask the government of the Republika

8 Srpska Krajina permission to dig up the grave, and I granted that

9 permission straight away. I think I made myself clear. But let me repeat

10 for a third time: We asked as a reciprocation that the graves of the

11 Serbs be dig out in Marino Selo, Marin's Village, in Slavonia, and he

12 didn't adhere to that promise, and I'll ask -- explain why.

13 Q. Let me put what Mr. Fenrick actually declared publicly to you.

14 And it's an exhibit not yet in this case. It's a new exhibit.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry, Your Honour. I just was reminded that

16 the letter from Mothers of Vukovar, the answer, should be exhibited, his

17 answer.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's exhibited.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 959.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And just for the usher, it is the page --

21 Q. Just so to explain to you, Mr. Jarcevic, it is a cable with

22 attachments from the UN related to the Ovcara gravesite from the 25th of

23 February, 1995. In this cable is included an interoffice memorandum about

24 how the negotiations were conducted, and actually on page 2 of that

25 memorandum there is mentioned the discussions that were held with you in

Page 49032

1 1993. It says here -- it starts with -- when I look at the first, at the

2 interoffice memorandum, it says on the first page, last line: "The

3 investigation had been on the agenda of the commission of experts since

4 late 1992." Then it is mentioned that they took -- they undertook

5 detailed preparation to excavate the site between December 1992 and

6 September 1993. The preparation included obtaining all assurances on the

7 23rd of April, 1993, from Mr. Jarcevic, the foreign minister.

8 Is that how you remember it too?

9 A. Yes. That was at the Yugoslavia Hotel.

10 Q. And it says here in that same paragraph: "After the written

11 authorisation had been received, the commission sent the 60-strong

12 excavation team to the former Yugoslavia. Subsequently, during October

13 1993, the local authorities denied knowledge of the Knin authorisation and

14 became increasingly obstructive ..."

15 It's not money missing at the UN side. It is the local

16 authorities obstructing the work of the commission. Can you help us with

17 that? Why were they opposed?

18 A. Madam, this is the first time I'm hearing this piece of

19 information. I never heard of anything like this before, and it cannot be

20 correct at all. Even if somebody did obstruct on the part of the local

21 authorities, the government of Srpska Krajina would have to have been

22 informed about it, because I'm quite sure that that what Fenrick promised

23 me was never brought to completion. And there are several letters that we

24 have kept in the Republic of Srpska Krajina, and I think that President

25 Milosevic's associates do in fact have a letter where it says that because

Page 49033

1 of the lack of money, they would be putting a stop to the digging up of

2 both localities, both sites. And we proposed our own pathologist. They

3 never called him to join the team, although they did record his name. His

4 name was Zeljko Karan and he was from Banja Luka, pathologist from Banja

5 Luka. I can go on if you're interested in hearing more about this.

6 Q. I'd like to go with you further through this memorandum of the UN

7 in relation how the exhumation went along. And it says here in the next

8 paragraph: "On 15 and 16 October 1993, the Commission received 'Decrees'

9 from Knin authorising the excavation provided that the medico-legal

10 examination did not take place in Croatia," and the UN agreed to this.

11 Then it continues: "On the 22 October 1993, Colonel Milanovic informed

12 the commission that despite all previous written assurances, the

13 excavation was to be postponed until an overall political solution had

14 been found to the situation in the former Yugoslavia."

15 Now, tell me, why would you need to have a political solution to

16 excavate a gravesite? Why was that suddenly a condition?

17 A. Please believe me when I say that this is the first time I hear of

18 this. And why would a letter coming from Fenrick to the government of the

19 Srpska Krajina, why did it not contain this fact? We would certainly have

20 reacted.

21 So in his letter it says because of a lack of money, there will

22 not be the digging up of both gravesites. And I think that this Court

23 will receive a letter, will be shown a letter to that effect. I'll do my

24 best to find it.

25 Now, Bastion [phoen], who was the deputy of Mr. Fenrick, didn't

Page 49034

1 want to go to Belgrade and interview a man who was the sole survivor of

2 the execution in Marino Selo. He said he wasn't interested.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who has this letter, Mr. Jarcevic?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a copy of it at home, and I

5 will send the letter to you at the first -- earliest opportunity. The

6 letter is from Fenrick to the Prime Minister Bjegovic.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I have more documents here.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't send to it to me. Send it to the accused

9 or his associates.


11 Q. Among those documents that I have here related to Ovcara there is

12 no such letter that you mentioned but there is a press release. And

13 please could you put the press release of the 2nd of November - it's

14 enclosure number 3 - on the ELMO. And it is actually, according to this

15 document, it seems to come from Mr. Fenrick. And he explains how -- how

16 he prepared for the execution of the excavation and how he got first the

17 permits to do that. And then he says on the second page of this press

18 release: "However, in October 1993, after the arrival in the former

19 Yugoslavia of the persons mentioned above, some local representatives of

20 the Knin administration in the Ovcara area began to create obstacles for

21 the Commission's project, in particular, Colonel Milanovic."

22 And he also continues to write on the next page that: "The

23 Commission, however, firmly believes that the truth about the Ovcara mass

24 grave is impossible to hide regardless of what obstacles are currently put

25 in the way of the investigation.

Page 49035

1 "The Commission further deplores this delay for humanitarian

2 reasons since the identification of the remains would alleviate the

3 anxieties of the families of disappeared persons."

4 And he says also in the last line that: "... the attitude of the

5 Government of Croatia was positive and helpful."

6 He does not mention any problems with money, and he does also not

7 mention any reciprocity with the exhumations in Ovcara and the other

8 gravesites; correct?

9 A. Well, I'm surprised to hear that, because along with this fact or

10 information that he hasn't got enough money, he said that the commission

11 would be disbanded, and that's what happened, unless I'm mistaken, at the

12 beginning of 1994. He just said orally that the Tribunal in The Hague

13 would continue what they should have done.

14 Q. And we look at enclosure number 4. That's indeed a letter from

15 you of the 6th November 1993, and it relates, obviously, to the press

16 release of Mr. Fenrick. And you say here in paragraph 2: "The RSK has

17 granted permission for the Ovcara venture on condition that a concurrent

18 excavation of mass graves in Marino Selo and Pakrakca Poljana in Western

19 Slavonia was also implemented in that -- in the presence of the team of

20 Krajina forensics."

21 You bring forward here a reciprocity between excavation in two

22 mass graves. That's not mentioned in any of the documents by the UN. Why

23 did you write that?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 49036

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff claims is

2 not correct. It's not correct that the United Nations do not mention in

3 any of the documents, do not mention this. So she's asking the witness

4 the wrong question, an incorrect question, because in the memorandum that

5 she quoted a moment ago, UNPROFOR interoffice memorandum that she quoted

6 from a moment ago, just one paragraph lower down from the paragraph she

7 quoted from, and she was quoting from page 2, a paragraph beginning with,

8 "On the 15th and 16th of October 1993, the commission ..." et cetera, et

9 cetera, received a decree from Knin. In the following paragraph it

10 already says this in the document, the UN document. It says that Jarcevic

11 sent a letter to Fenrick in which it says, and you can read it for

12 yourselves, Jarcevic's quotation: "I must most strongly remind you that

13 the government of RSK has granted permission for Ovcara venture on

14 condition that a concurrent excavation of mass graves in Marino Selo and

15 Pakracka Poljana (Western Slavonia within Sector West, where he alleges

16 2.500 Serb bodies) were also implemented, and in the [In English] ...

17 presence of a team of Krajina forensic experts. It was naturally agreed

18 that a team of Croatian forensic experts should be present at Ovcara."

19 [Interpretation] So that we can see clearly that in the UN

20 document mention is in fact made of what in her question

21 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff says is not mentioned and she's putting that to

22 Mr. Jarcevic.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, in this -- this first document

Page 49037

1 that Mr. Milosevic just referred to, that's the summary of the events, and

2 I was not completing this summary of events but took actually the letters

3 that we had attached to. So what they are actually referring to is just

4 the letter that I just put to Mr. Jarcevic and ask him why did he, in

5 November 1993, for the first time mention that there was an agreement.

6 And that's exactly what is mentioned in this report here, that he -- or on

7 the 6th November, as it says here, wrote this letter. And in the -- it's

8 -- in the report summarising what was going on, it says actually -- a

9 comment of the author of the report is that he has no means verifying the

10 accuracy of the statements of Mr. Jarcevic in his letter. And I was just

11 putting this to Mr. Jarcevic. I asked him why on the 6th of November did

12 he bring this forward.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jarcevic, please answer.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madam, those conditions were

15 mentioned in the Yugoslavia Hotel when I first met Fenrick, our first

16 meeting. He told us orally that he accepted the conditions, and you know

17 that there are oral agreements which have as much value as written

18 agreements do, and I'm quite certain that we are lacking documents here in

19 which that is stated before the date that you're specifying.

20 Let me repeat that our archives were seized by the Croatian

21 police. However, the documents can be found, I'm sure, in New York.


23 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, Mr. Fenrick, in his press release of the 2nd of

24 November, does not mention this fact, but let me just ask you this: Why

25 do you insist on a degree of reciprocity in the investigation of mass

Page 49038

1 graves? What does one mass grave have to do with the other?

2 A. Thank you for that question. We informed Mr. Fenrick of about 70

3 mass graves of Serbs in Knin. I'm sorry, I meant to say in Croatia. So

4 it's quite logical that the United Nations do not have the right to deal

5 with the crimes of just one party, one side. They have to look at the

6 crimes of both sides, to care about them. And so Fenrick, with an

7 explanation from our part, said all right, we're going to dig up for the

8 moment just this one in Western Slavonia. And I can tell you also what

9 Fenrick also explained to us later on, what he told us later. He said he

10 found empty graves with no bodies after a certain time had passed and when

11 the commission was about to be disbanded.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to tender these

13 documents, this group of documents into evidence. It's --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you do that.


16 JUDGE BONOMY: I see that there was a recommendation in the end

17 that the ICTY should consider approaching the Croatian government and Knin

18 authorities with a view to having the two exhumations carried out. Did

19 the Office of the Prosecutor follow that up?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't know that, Your Honour. I don't

21 know.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: You surely understand the point the witness is

23 making about even-handed investigation, and I just wondered if that had

24 happened.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution did not -- did usually ask

Page 49039

1 other authorities to do such things, and I'm not aware that these other

2 mass graves -- these other graves were done by the commission of expert.

3 I will try to find an answer to that, Your Honour, but at the moment, off

4 the top of my head, I don't know that.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll admit the documents.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 960.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Mr. Jarcevic, you spoke about your

8 participation in negotiations with the Croatian authorities, and you

9 actually referred mostly to these global political questions. However,

10 you also had negotiations on, as I see -- I have here a press release from

11 the 15th of December, 1992, and it just refers to the fact that the

12 Croatian government has proposed through UNPROFOR the normalisation of

13 relations with the Republic of Serbian Krajina related to the opening of

14 roads, establishing of rail transport, power plants, bridges, and those

15 kind of things. Negotiation on these more practical and economical facts

16 took matters -- took the place, right, of what their proposal, the Croats'

17 proposal. Is that correct?

18 A. Madam, the contents of this was something that all the meetings

19 dealt with, whether directly with the Croatian delegation or with the

20 mediators like Thornberry, but on our side we asked that roads be opened

21 from Slovenia to Hungary. We wanted an exit into the world.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Could this be exhibited, Your Honour?

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's exhibited.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 961.


Page 49040

1 Q. And before we go into a few very specific negotiations, I would

2 like to put to you something that you said at that time about your

3 counterpart on the Croatian side, and first of all I would like to put to

4 you an exhibit from the newspaper Glas Srpski of the 14th and 15th January

5 1993.

6 A. Let me have a look.

7 Q. It's called "Reaction of Slobodan Jarcevic, RSK Minister of

8 Foreign Affairs." And the headline is "Danger for the RSK."

9 And it says here in the first point under the headline, it says:

10 "I hope the world will realise that all the evil that has come upon the

11 former Yugoslavia comes from Croatia and the artificial Muslim creation,

12 which both initiated the war in an attempt to destroy the Serbian people."

13 That was your view at that time; right?

14 A. To this day, madam.

15 Q. And a little but further down here, it says: "Jarcevic reiterated

16 the view that a 'monster state,' which once already existed, was again

17 being created in the territory of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."

18 What do you mean by "monster state that already -- that once

19 already existed"?

20 A. The answer is very simple, madam: It cannot have a joint coat of

21 arms, a joint language, a common flag, and I don't know what else you

22 want.

23 Q. You say a little bit further down: "Judging by all, the form of

24 federation or confederation with Croatia is being envisaged for RSK which

25 is unacceptable for us."

Page 49041

1 So you actually always strived for statehood of the RSK and the

2 RS; correct?

3 A. Yes. That was our ultimate objective because of our historical

4 experience. As for the Croatian proposals, as I've said, it only had to

5 do with two towns and their surroundings. And as I said, we always

6 rejected that.

7 Q. I would like to go now to another of --

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, could that be exhibited? I

9 would like to tender this.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's exhibited.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 962, Your Honours.


13 Q. And by the way, I forgot to ask you: You mentioned the Muslims

14 being an artificial -- Muslim nation being an artificial creation. Do you

15 still think that? Is that still your point of view?

16 A. Absolutely. All Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina are ethnic Serbs.

17 Q. I have here another newspaper article, also from Glas Srpski from

18 15 February 1993, and it has the headline: "Forbidden words:

19 'Co-existence' and Autonomy!" "Co-existence" is in converted commas, and

20 it's actually the Croatian word for co-existence; right?

21 A. You are wrong, madam. That is a Serb word. The Croatian language

22 hasn't been used for the past 100 years. It was called the Kajkavian

23 dialect in scholarly circuits, but that was a mistake and they just took

24 for state use a pure language, the pure Serbian language, and they've

25 spoiled it a bit in order to give the expression of the existence of two

Page 49042

1 languages. Croatian is the only language which is not under the

2 protection of UNESCO, although UNESCO takes care of 6.000 different

3 languages in the world that are about to become extinct.

4 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, this is a -- actually the opinion or report about a

5 delegation of the RSK, and it's mentioned who was part of it, and I see

6 your name here, too, and it says here on -- I have -- it's in the last

7 column. It's the last column in the Serbian, and in the English it's on

8 the second page, the top paragraph. It says here: "... we have recently

9 refuted Mr. Owen's statement that we are going to those talks for reasons

10 of the establishment of some sort of 'co-existence' and autonomy of the

11 Republic of Croatia. That is not why we are going there, and precisely

12 those two words, 'co-existence' and autonomy, will be permanently banned

13 during the negotiations!"

14 Mr. Jarcevic, does it mean that those sayings were proposed to

15 you, offered to you, co-existence and autonomy, and you didn't -- you

16 rejected this?

17 A. Madam, I'm telling you for the fifth time: Co-existence and

18 autonomy only in two towns, and that would escalate to totally senseless

19 proportions in 1993. And the Z-4 plan in 1994 when for those two

20 municipalities, two towns, they envisaged money, a flag, an army, a

21 parliament, a coat of arms, and participation in the Croatian authorities.

22 So two-thirds of the Republic of Serb Krajina would have been excluded.

23 It would have automatically become part of Croatia and probably the

24 inhabitants of those areas would have fared the same way as the

25 inhabitants of Zagreb, Split, Dubrovnik and Sisak fared: They were all

Page 49043

1 expelled.

2 Q. Just another and the last quote from that period in relation to

3 Croatia I would now like to put to you, and that's a letter that you wrote

4 to Aleksa Buha from the RS, Republika Srpska.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And Your Honour, could the previous article

6 be exhibited, please?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 963, Your Honours.


10 Q. And we have here -- Mr. Jarcevic, this is a letter that you wrote

11 to Mr. Buha, and we have it translated. However, this letter was read out

12 in an Assembly session of the 11th of September, 1993 in the Republika

13 Srpska Assembly. Do you recall that you wrote such a letter to Mr. Buha

14 and do you know that it was read out and applauded to?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I just want to quote one little section of it, and it is on --

17 A. Just go ahead, bravely.

18 Q. It's basically in the middle of your letter, and it says here --

19 it's on the bottom of first page, Your Honour, in the translation, last

20 few lines: "We must not make the same mistake today as we did so many

21 times before. Serbian Knights must be on Serbian borders. The villain,

22 who was taught from his childhood to exterminate the Serbian people, must

23 not step on Serbian land. Too much of our land was taken away from us

24 during this century for us to be able to give up even one inch of it now."

25 That's really a quite -- I would call this hate speech, or a very

Page 49044

1 nasty propaganda remark, Mr. Jarcevic; glorifying the Serbs and demonising

2 the Croats, isn't it?

3 A. Madam, the genocide over the Serbs in the camps of death, how can

4 you describe it in other terms? Try. Try for yourself. Tell us.

5 700.000 Serbs killed in the Jasenovac camp. That's what I had in mind.

6 Q. But you were saying this, Mr. Jarcevic, you were saying this about

7 the people you were supposed to negotiate an agreement with. How can you

8 as a foreign minister use such a language? That cannot allow for results

9 in negotiations, can it?

10 A. What I said does not look like hate speech at all. If you wish, I

11 can paraphrase something that was stated by the Croats and what they even

12 published in newspapers for children, and that is going to horrify you.

13 Here I'm talking about Serb land that has to be in a Serb country, and

14 that is the view I espouse to the present day, madam.

15 Q. Serbian borders. You speak about the Serbian borders. Where

16 would they be?

17 A. Madam, I know that this is a provocative question. You think that

18 I shall not agree to say that Serb borders are where the Serb language is

19 spoken and where the Serb people live and where half of the Serbs were

20 exterminated, like in Kordun, from 1941 to 1945. Not a single country has

21 the right to take up a territory where it committed genocide, Croatia

22 least of all. And they hold these lands until the present day.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I -- Mr. Jarcevic, can I ask you a quite

24 different question about the same document. Assuming that you've finished

25 with it, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

Page 49045


2 JUDGE BONOMY: If you look much nearer the beginning, about ten

3 lines into the letter, certainly in the English version, you write:

4 "Nobody questions the noble intention of the Serbian army, which wants to

5 put a stop to wartime looters." Then a little below that you talk about

6 something having an impact on the weakening of the spirit and faith in

7 Serbian arms and Serbian state, and then something's missing. And then go

8 down about another ten lines, and you say: "Statesmen and journalists in

9 the world write only about the rebellion of the Serbian army in Banja

10 Luka ..."

11 What did you mean to refer to by the Serbian army and Serbian

12 arms?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb army is called the Serb

14 army to this day in Republika Srpska. This was an event that I didn't

15 even understand at that time. There was a conflict between the leaders of

16 Republika Srpska and even military officers. I wrote a letter, and I

17 requested that this be pacified, that a solution be found, because

18 everybody was talking about it. And I was referring then to the Serbs

19 expelled from Croatia, that nobody was taking care of them, that nobody

20 was writing about them, and we are surprised how come it is only today

21 that this is being talked about.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if that's really what you're saying,

23 Mr. Jarcevic. Just go back to near the beginning again, just before the

24 first reference I gave you. You say: "The Serbian people in Krajina need

25 help. Every Serb must provide it. I write this letter to you so that you

Page 49046

1 can communicate to the officers and soldiers in Banja Luka that the

2 Serbian people face a possible defeat."

3 Now, who do you mean by "the officers and soldiers in Banja Luka"?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've said a few moments ago

5 that there was a conflict in the top echelons of the military, in the

6 corps that was stationed in Banja Luka. I don't know about the details, I

7 don't know about the reasons, but it was unpleasant to read about that in

8 the world media when the problems of the Serb people were something

9 completely different rather than mutual squabbling.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. May I just add

12 something? When I said that Krajina was in danger, I was actually

13 alluding to the fact that there is not a single people in the world, if

14 they were to be attacked, say, from the north, that the people living in

15 the south would say, "Do we care about our people in the north?" No way.

16 And that is the kind of thing that was being expected, I assume.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. I -- I would like

18 this to be -- I would like to tender this into evidence, this letter.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 964, Your Honours.


22 Q. In relation to the negotiations, I only want briefly to touch on

23 the negotiations in Norway, Mr. Jarcevic, and I would like to quote from

24 what Mr. Vollebaek actually told the Court on the 8th of July, 2002, pages

25 7636 through to 7638. He actually -- as he said, you said you allowed for

Page 49047

1 the possibility that he was in contact with Mr. Milosevic, and he actually

2 told us about a meeting that he had in relation to the preparation of the

3 negotiations in Norway, and he actually met Mr. Milosevic, and he said the

4 following: "And I asked for his help, and he said that he would assist me

5 because he felt that it would be difficult for the Croats to fight two

6 fronts at the same time, and according to him it was more important to

7 fight the Muslims than the Serbs. The Croats should be able to fight the

8 Muslims, and in order for the Croats to fight the Muslims, the Serbs

9 should kind of step back and let the Croats fight the Muslims."

10 Did Mr. Milosevic express this view not only to Vollebaek but also

11 to the delegation or members of the delegation of the RSK? Do you know

12 that?

13 A. As for Mr. Milosevic, he never spoke to me or to other people when

14 I was present about where the Serbs should be in the conflict between the

15 Muslims and the Croats, and I'm surprised that Vollebaek is confusing that

16 subject with this other subject at hand.

17 Q. Mr. Vollebaek, on page 7638, says the following, and it's again --

18 it's still on the meeting with Mr. Milosevic. He says: "And then in

19 order to let the Croats concentrate, so to say, on the Muslims, he -

20 Milosevic - would ask the government in Knin to participate in the talks

21 that we were going to have in Norway and then for the time being at least

22 not pursue military activities."

23 This is what he said he would do, Mr. Jarcevic, and this is

24 actually what Mr. Lazarevic told us about when he testified and spoke

25 about the meeting that Hadzic and this other Rakic had with Milosevic. Do

Page 49048

1 you still deny that?

2 A. Madam, this statement of Vollebaek's is more than naive. If the

3 Croats had attached that kind of importance to these negotiations, they

4 would have signed the agreement. But they refused it. What does that

5 mean, being in Norway for two days, about ten 10 people from one side and

6 ten people from the other side? Did they win any battle against the

7 Muslims by going to Norway? None of this is correct, because the

8 negotiations had nothing whatsoever to do with the Muslim-Croat conflict.

9 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, do you allow for the possibility that Mr. Milosevic

10 said such things to Mr. Vollebaek at that time?

11 A. I don't want to engage in guesswork, madam. Please free me from

12 that kind of responsibility. I can just say, as far as Vollebaek is

13 concerned, that he is a man who is not to be trusted. I'm just going to

14 tell you about another particular case which will make you believe what I

15 said about that man's character. If you wish, I will tell you about this.

16 He stole my bag at the airport. If you wish, I can bring you an

17 interview about that that was published in a magazine after we returned.

18 I threatened to take him to court, and he brought my bag from Zagreb, and

19 he never even met me, just brought the bag and left it there.

20 Q. I would like to continue to quote from that same page, and this is

21 something that Mr. Vollebaek tells the Court at that time and which is

22 actually confirming again what Mr. Lazarevic said. "Well, we were under

23 the impression that the government in Knin was heavily supported, strongly

24 supported, by the government in Belgrade and then, in casu, then President

25 Milosevic. We knew that members of the Knin government went to Belgrade

Page 49049

1 very often, and we thought and presumed that President Milosevic had

2 strong influence on the government in Knin. And since the representatives

3 of the Knin government then went to Norway for these talks, later on I was

4 strengthened in my belief that there was an influence from Belgrade on the

5 government of Knin."

6 Do you deny that there was such an influence?

7 A. There was an influence in terms of peace. We heard that. He

8 certainly advised us in that direction; peace, not war. As for these

9 talks of theirs, I repeat that I am not aware of any such thing. Nothing

10 like that was conveyed to me.

11 Q. And I --

12 MR. KAY: Can I just come in on one matter? It would certainly

13 help the Defence if a question such as that could be put in the framework

14 of the timing of the indictment from August 1991 to June 1992. The

15 context of Mr. Vollebaek's evidence and that of Lazarevic in relation to

16 period is obviously very important, but a distinction may well have to be

17 made in terms of period for the counts of the indictment, and that is

18 something that I raise because it is of importance to the Defence to know

19 exactly what evidence is being relied upon in the cross-examination of a

20 witness, and to what effect.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, what period are you speaking

22 of?

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm speaking of the period of 1993. There is

24 no doubt about that. I mean -- and I mean I'm a little bit surprised

25 about this remark, because we are dealing with three indictments covering

Page 49050

1 that whole period but we are not having the witness coming three times.

2 He is here now, and we will address everything that relates to all three

3 indictments with the witness. This is what I'm talking about, and if the

4 case of the Prosecution is that Mr. Milosevic had actually a strong grip

5 on the leadership of the Republika Srpska Krajina from 1990 onwards, this

6 is of course important that it continued to be like this throughout the

7 whole period until 1995.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just clarify the particular period in relation to

9 the evidence when you ask the question.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But it was actually -- we had discussed the

11 Norway negotiation in 1993. That's why I didn't give -- bring the witness

12 through all these remarks.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm not entirely sure I follow your point

14 about the link between or among the three indictments, because the Bosnian

15 indictment doesn't include the witnesses that -- or the personnel we've

16 principally been concerned about, does it?


18 JUDGE BONOMY: As part of the joint criminal enterprise?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, the JCE members are actually the same

20 except for that additional ones come into the play, that is Mr. -- General

21 Mladic and Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik. It's the same JCE, just

22 evolving.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time to take the break. We will adjourn.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Just as an example: There is no reference to Babic

25 in the Bosnian indictment, is there?

Page 49051

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. That's correct, Your Honour, because

2 Babic was ousted in 1991 because he didn't, according to our evidence,

3 obey Mr. Milosevic.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: No reference to Bulatovic.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Bulatovic? I'm not sure. I think Bulatovic

6 is --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: There are, I would suggest, differences. No

8 reference to Seselj. Oh, yes, there is. Sorry.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the position of the Prosecution

10 is that it is one JCE evolving over times when personnel was ousted or --

11 or left this JCE for other reasons. So ...

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, did you also take part in negotiations in 1995 with

18 Ambassador Galbraith?

19 A. Madam, when in 1995?

20 Q. In -- in the negotiations related to the Z-4 plan up to May 1995.

21 A. No. And I said that I didn't, and I also explained in what

22 situation and at what time that plan was offered.

23 Q. Then I don't need to ask these questions. You were relieved from

24 your position as the foreign minister of the RSK when -- when exactly and

25 why?

Page 49052

1 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was in April 1994, as

2 Dr. Milan Babic had won the majority in parliament. He was appointed

3 minister of foreign affairs, and I handed over my duty to him in Knin.

4 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Jarcevic. Mr. Jarcevic, I have here a

5 document --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I have here a document that appoints you to a position. Just --

8 just briefly, according to a decision of the 2nd of May, 1994, Mr. Milan

9 Martic appoints you to his advisor for foreign policy.

10 A. He asked me to take up that job, explaining that he knew Dr. Babic

11 and that he would do nothing in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

12 Therefore, he asked me to do part of the affairs in -- with foreign

13 countries as part of his office. And as you can see, I agreed.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Could that be accepted?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's accepted.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 965.


18 Q. Yes. And, Mr. Jarcevic, when you took up this position, did you

19 then move to Knin or did you continue to be in Belgrade and in that office

20 of the RSK in Belgrade?

21 A. I remained in Belgrade. I changed offices because President

22 Martic had his own office about six kilometres away from the Ministry of

23 Foreign Affairs. This was all in Belgrade. And that was the distance,

24 more or less.

25 Q. Thank you. We had previously mentioned that the negotiations with

Page 49053

1 the Croats, when they started in 1992 and throughout the -- when they

2 lasted, also included economic agreements, and they actually did result in

3 some improvements; correct?

4 A. To a very small extent, madam, because the Croats did not want to

5 use the Maslenica bridge as we offered them before my arrival. I'm

6 referring to the government of the Republic of Srpska Krajina in 1992.

7 And it's interesting to note that on the 22nd of January, 1993, these

8 negotiations were to continue, and two commissions were to meet. I don't

9 know in what village exactly, in Ravni Kotari, and as usual, on that day

10 Croatia perpetrated an aggression.

11 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, the -- as a result of these negotiations, the

12 highway Zagreb-Belgrade was opened in winter 1994, was it -- was it not?

13 A. Yes. This is one of the results that seemed to promise agreement

14 could be reached in other areas as well. Krajina was whole-heartedly in

15 favour of it. I know that. The Prime Minister at the time was

16 Mr. Nikolic, and Rade Tanga was the minister of defence. He was the first

17 to drive down the motorway from Western Slavonia to Vukovar through

18 Croatian territory.

19 Q. And this -- this highway was actually closed in 1995 three times

20 by Mr. Milan Martic, was it not?

21 A. Madam, I don't know all the details about the temporary closure.

22 You can't say it was closed or that the Republic of Srpska Krajina gave up

23 on the agreement that he had signed. However, it was temporarily closed

24 for not longer than 24 or 48 hours, I think. There was some kind of

25 misunderstanding, but I can't tell you anything about it.

Page 49054

1 Q. How come you can't? You don't know the details of this?

2 A. No, I don't know the details, believe me.

3 Q. Would you accept that the attack on -- of the -- of the Croats in

4 May 1995 on Western Slavonia was actually caused or triggered by the

5 action of Milan Martic in relation to the highway? Would you accept that?

6 A. No, I couldn't accept that. In March we had a document about the

7 Croatian attack which was to take place on the 1st of May. We received it

8 from the NATO headquarters in Brussels. Secretly, of course. We don't

9 even know who sent it to us. And it was long before the highway was

10 closed.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to play to the witness an

12 intercept, a conversation. For the -- for the video booth, it's on

13 Sanction.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters have a precise reference,

15 please.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the interpreter, it's cassette number 15,

17 side A, conversation between Mr. Milosevic and Goran Hadzic.

18 [Audiotape played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Let me tell you something. I've

20 had telephone contacts both with the Russians and the Americans and with

21 Akashi. They have stopped all combat activities. Celeketic even

22 confirmed to Perisic that all combat activities had been stopped and that

23 the Croats are not fighting any more. But they committed horrible crimes

24 there. They shelled Zagreb, they shelled Sisak, Karlovac. They hit the

25 children's hospital in Zagreb, butchered 15 children, and in general,

Page 49055

1 everything that is happening is a result of Martic's wilful conduct. He

2 closed the motorway on his own initiative three times, without the consent

3 of the Krajina government, and even when we organised everything in order

4 for it to reopen he said no, therefore, this other guy decided to drive

5 him out.

6 "He is crazy. He cannot get along with anybody at all.

7 "I think that he needs to be replaced. Because of his wilful

8 conduct that has caused so many casualties.

9 "Well, I don't know how this thing is here any more ... I don't

10 know that. Are you at work tomorrow?

11 "I'm going to be at work.

12 "I would call ... Do have anything planned?

13 "Well, I'll probably have something, but do call.

14 "I'll call around 1000 hours or 10.30.

15 "But do call, I want to hear from you.

16 "Okay. Good-bye.

17 "Good-bye."


19 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, this is Mr. Milosevic speaking to Goran Hadzic.

20 Actually they are speaking about the shelling of Zagreb, and Mr. Milosevic

21 is actually saying that Martic closed the motorway three times and that

22 basically triggered the attack by the Croats. Could you please comment on

23 this.

24 A. Yes, I can. Croatia would have attacked us even had the highway

25 not been closed. As I told you, we held in our hands the plan for the

Page 49056

1 Croatian attack which we received from the NATO centre in Brussels. We

2 don't know who sent it to us. I don't even know the people who brought it

3 to us. The attack was planned to take place on the 1st of May. That's

4 what the report said. And it was well known that the Serb leaders could

5 not agree among themselves. Whatever conversation you intercept, you will

6 hear things like this, even with other participants in the conversation.

7 However, this particular conversation that you've asked me to comment on

8 simply shows that the Serbs did not have a unified single plan in

9 connection with the Republic of Srpska Krajina. The Prosecution, however,

10 claims that it had and that the plan was to create some kind of Greater

11 Serbia. This intercept demonstrates the opposite.

12 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, Mr. Milosevic says here: "We organised everything

13 in order to reopen the highway." "We"; that implies actually him being

14 involved in that action. Do you know that he was doing this, that he was

15 negotiating and preparing those things?

16 A. I cannot interpret what Mr. Milosevic was saying. He's here. But

17 I assume that when he uttered that sentence he was thinking of the Serbian

18 nation as a whole, and all of us were holding some kind of office in that

19 nation. I can assume, if you'll permit me to go on, that perhaps he was

20 not aware of every detail that had to do with this conflict around the

21 highway, especially if he was being informed by Mr. Hadzic who was having

22 serious arguments with the head of state Milan Martic at the time.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the reference to shelling of

24 Zagreb, who is it suggested was responsible for that?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Milan Martic, Your Honour.

Page 49057

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: He speaks about Milan Martic's wilful

3 conduct, and the witness will probably confirm that Mr. Martic ordered the

4 shelling of Zagreb, Sisak, and Karlovac.

5 Q. Can you confirm that?

6 A. Madam, it's a sin to mention those few rockets when thousands of

7 rockets were fired at Serbian towns. I think I had a document in my hand

8 showing that if Croatia attacked the Republic of Serbian Krajina, all

9 military weapons were to be used against military facilities in Croatia.

10 In Bosanska Gradiska, for instance, on the 1st of May the Croats bombarded

11 the town in the neighbouring country and killed a lot of refugees who had

12 fled from Croatia.

13 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, we do not have time to speak about the -- these

14 other matters that you just referred to. We -- the question was --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I take it -- I take it, Mr. Jarcevic, that you

16 have confirmed that Milan Martic ordered the shelling of Zagreb, Sisak,

17 and Karlovac.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, I guarantee

19 that this was the strategy of the General Staff. What else can one do to

20 an enemy but to retaliate with the same kind of means? I'm not saying

21 that anyone, including Martic, issued an order that civilian targets be

22 fired on. Were we supposed to throw chocolate at them?

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In this context, to make it even more clear

24 for Your Honours I have another intercept that I would like to play. It's

25 related again to the same time period, that is the 3rd of May, 1995, and

Page 49058

1 this time it's again on Sanction. And for the interpreters, it's

2 conversation -- conversation 68, Perisic and Milosevic talking. And we

3 hear only two parts of this intercept, which is quite a lengthy one.

4 [Audiotape played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] I've just received written

6 confirmation that Clinton personally talked to Tudjman. Of course

7 privately over the telephone, and that he said he would make him pay if he

8 continues with the animosities and start retreating there. Therefore,

9 this has been confirmed. He received a bloody threat, but this Tihomir

10 Dinic just told me that Stankov, this Stankov of ours, you know, he's now

11 there with him in the Executive Committee, that he spoke with Martic.

12 Martic told him that something was done again against the Serbs on Psunj

13 Mountain and that that was why Akashi went there. He does not have any

14 other choice but to shell Zagreb again, so please call Celeketic and draw

15 his attention to it. You heard Tudjman last night. If they shell Zagreb,

16 by any chance, he would not allow that retreat or anything else. He has

17 6.000 people in the encirclement and he is jerking around here by wanting

18 to shell Zagreb, kill the civilians, and cause a reaction. That's number

19 one. Call Celeketic and forbid him to -- and forbid him to do it and tell

20 him not to even think about it. Akashi went there. Everything will be

21 fixed and he should not do anything stupid. Due to the shelling of

22 Zagreb, Martic was not in Zagreb the day before yesterday but he was in

23 Zagreb only yesterday, so it is absolutely out of the question and he

24 mustn't do that. Secondly ..."

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And this continues, this intercept

Page 49059

1 continues, and I would like to have just the next bit played, as

2 indicated.

3 [Audiotape played]

4 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Call Celeketic and forbid him to do

5 that. Tell him not to even think about it. Akashi went there.

6 Everything will be fixed and he should not do anything stupid. Due to the

7 shelling of Zagreb, Martic was -- he was not in Zagreb the day before

8 yesterday but only yesterday. So it is absolutely out of the question.

9 He mustn't do that. Secondly, Martic said to this Pankov that he arranged

10 yesterday with Karadzic in Banja Luka that these people from 'Republika

11 Srpska' were to attack somewhere to take something. They don't mean

12 Croats but to attack and take something there in their own battlefield.

13 That would be very bad, because I have already received a report from the

14 Greek. I will read it to you. Just a moment."

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That should be -- can you please stop it?

16 Yes. Thank you.

17 Q. Mr. -- Mr. Jarcevic, this is now a conversation on -- of the 3rd

18 of May again, between Perisic and Milosevic, and actually Mr. Milosevic

19 asked General Perisic to actually request Celeketic not to shell Zagreb.

20 And did -- my question is: Did -- do you know whether the shelling of

21 Zagreb then stopped?

22 A. I don't know what you want me to say. You see, this conversation

23 shows to what extent the people participating in it were advocating peace

24 rather than war. It was Croatia that was waging war.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please answer the question which was: Do you

Page 49060

1 know whether the shelling of Zagreb then stopped?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know when it stopped,

3 whether before or after this conversation, but it did stop.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


6 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, were you aware of the close relationship between the

7 commanders of the VJ and the RSK -- the SVK, sorry, the army of the RSK.

8 Were you aware of this, that one could basically order another?

9 A. No. I don't believe they could issue orders. They could take

10 each other's opinion into account. For two reasons: Firstly, they had

11 gone to school together and they knew each other; and secondly, they were

12 members of the same nation.

13 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, I would like to put to you another --

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I forgot to ask, could these two

15 intercepts be admitted?


17 JUDGE KWON: They were not exhibits?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, they are not yet exhibits.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, they're admitted.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the first intercept between

21 Mr. Milosevic and Goran Hadzic will be Exhibit 966. And the second,

22 between Momcilo Perisic and Mr. Milosevic, will be Exhibit 967.


24 Q. Mr. Jarcevic --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

Page 49061

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


4 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, would you know details about the military

5 cooperation between the VJ and the SVK? Are you knowledgeable on this

6 topic?

7 A. I don't know a lot about it, but I can give you a conclusion. In

8 every branch, we had relations with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

9 Q. Wait. Wait. I don't want a conclusion. I actually was thinking

10 about putting to you some documents, and I was just wondering whether you

11 dealt with, in your office in Belgrade, whether as a foreign minister or

12 in your capacity as advisor, with such military requests from the RSK

13 organs to the VJ or Belgrade ministries. Would they come over your desk?

14 A. Let me take a look. I'll be quite sincere, madam.

15 Q. I just wanted to avoid to put something to you that you never

16 would have dealt with. Okay. The first document is -- it's --

17 A. If you know that I've never seen these documents, then don't show

18 them to me.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is -- it's not an exhibit yet, Your

20 Honour.

21 Q. It's a request of the president of the RSK of the 21st of July,

22 1994, to the president of Yugoslavia and the president of Serbia and Chief

23 of Staff of the Yugoslav army in relation to recruitment and equipment for

24 the SVK.

25 First of all, do you know -- it's a request by Mr. Milan Martic,

Page 49062

1 whose advisor you were at that time. Do you know about these requests

2 that he made to the three organs?

3 A. May I just enter a correction? I was advisor for foreign affairs.

4 Q. Yes. Yes. Thank you.

5 A. I never saw materials of this sort, and I can tell you a little

6 joke. I used to inquire with military personnel about the preparations

7 for the defence of the Krajina, but the response I got was always the

8 same: This is not like in communist times. Everybody should mind his own

9 business, so you look after diplomacy.

10 Q. Okay. And what it says here in this document, "The planned

11 development and strengthening of the SVK is directly related to the supply

12 of MTS by the VJ, as agreed." Could you help us with who agreed about

13 what and when?

14 A. I don't know who agreed on this, but by your leave, as I said, in

15 every area, the two countries cooperated. The Republika Srpska Krajina,

16 whether one wants to admit it or not, was a real state at that time.

17 Q. And in relation to page 10 of -- in the English, it also refers to

18 the request for cluster rockets for the Orkan multiple-launch rocket

19 systems. Do you know whether the RSK army received multiple-launch rocket

20 systems from the VJ?

21 A. Madam, I really don't know, but the officers always assured me

22 that Krajina was well-armed. That was all the information I had. It was

23 very general.

24 Q. And do you know that these cluster rockets were actually used for

25 the shelling of Zagreb? Do you know that?

Page 49063

1 A. Madam, I really don't know anything about rockets, and to this day

2 I'm not sure what a cluster bomb is.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I don't know whether this

4 line of questioning is productive.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's correct. And I don't want to tender

6 the document either.

7 Q. Let's just briefly move to the office of the RSK in Belgrade. The

8 office that you worked in as a minister of foreign affairs, who owned this

9 premises?

10 A. The owner of premises I think was the city of Belgrade, but I'm

11 not sure.

12 Q. I would like to put to you Exhibit 352, tab 152. Mr. Jarcevic, it

13 is an order by Chief of Staff of the VJ, General Zivota Panic. It is a

14 military matter, and I only put it to you because the office of the

15 Republic of Serbian Krajina in Belgrade is mentioned here in point 4 of

16 the first page of this document. Can we put it on the ELMO, the first

17 page? It's an order directed to the accepting and initiating conscript

18 soldiers into the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and it says in

19 relation to the office of the RSK: "The assignment of the conscript

20 soldiers will be performed by the Government's Office of the RSK in

21 Belgrade ... and cooperation must be established with them." When it says

22 here "must be established with them," is that you or who?

23 A. Yes, madam. At that point in time it's me, and I'm telling you

24 it's the 27th of January, five days after the bloody aggression of Croatia

25 against the Republic of Srpska Krajina, which is why I gave an office to

Page 49064

1 the minister for foreign affairs, so that Colonel Rade Tanga, who was

2 later to become the minister of defence and director of the university, or

3 the dean, could list the volunteers who were turning up from everywhere,

4 even from abroad. We asked the government of the Federal Republic of

5 Yugoslavia to assist us in recruiting citizens of the Republic of Srpska

6 Krajina who wanted to volunteer to go to the borders of their homeland.

7 Q. And who exactly made this agreement? You and who else?

8 A. I just sent instructions to the government of the Federal Republic

9 of Yugoslavia and I don't remember anything else. They phoned me up to

10 tell me that I -- we could send our recruits, and it was in the office

11 that the names were taken down, but nobody was forced and nobody in the

12 federal organs of Yugoslavia went collecting up the young men and bringing

13 them to my -- our office. It was all on a volunteer basis, regardless of

14 what it says in the text.

15 Q. Another document, and that's related -- it's Exhibit 327, tab 9.

16 And please put the first page on the ELMO.

17 Mr. Jarcevic, it is a meeting held by the president of the --

18 hosted by -- sorry, hosted by the president of the Republic of Serbia of

19 the 12th of November, 1992. I see that you are -- were not one of the

20 participants in this meeting. However, did you learn about the meeting as

21 you were the foreign minister at that time? Do you know about that

22 meeting, about financing the police and the army of the RSK?

23 A. This meeting is not one I knew about, but let me repeat: The two

24 states did have relationships at all levels, in all fields. So you

25 mustn't understand this as being financing by Yugoslavia of the army of

Page 49065

1 Republika Srpska Krajina. The goods went on the markets of both

2 countries, and finances were also calculated as they would be in either of

3 the two states.

4 Q. So I just would like to turn to the next exhibit. That's 327, tab

5 14. It is -- it's a letter to Milan Martic -- from -- by Milan Martic to

6 Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Sainovic, and Zoran Sokolovic, and it's again about

7 funds for the MUP of the RSK of the 28th of April, 1993. Were you aware

8 about -- of this request and that the money actually came? It's about the

9 salaries of the police.

10 A. As for this document, I didn't know about it. I am seeing it for

11 the first time. But in documents of this kind, you don't have all the

12 facts relating to the economic relations of the two states. Serbia owed a

13 lot to Krajina, and you won't be able to find this in this type of

14 document.

15 Q. But you were aware that the police in the RSK was financed by

16 Serbia?

17 A. That's not correct, madam. They were financed from the budget of

18 the Republic of Srpska Krajina.

19 Q. This is here a letter, if you look at it, to the officials,

20 including Mr. Milosevic, of the Republic of Serbia, and they ask for

21 assistance in the payment of salaries. I understood that you said these

22 were -- those kind of things were done.

23 A. Madam, all I want to say is that the Republic of Serbia, or the

24 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, owed the Republic of Srpska Krajina

25 certain monies which might have been used for these salaries. If you

Page 49066

1 like, I can tell you about the economic situation and trade relations

2 between the two countries and then you'll be able to understand that I'm

3 speaking the truth.

4 Q. Actually, at the moment we don't have much time left,

5 Mr. Jarcevic, so I can't really -- we can't go into these details.

6 One -- one letter I would like to put to you, and that's actually

7 something that you wrote and so you may perhaps know better about it.

8 And it's not an exhibit yet, Your Honour.

9 If you put it on the ELMO, please.

10 A. This is not my letter, madam.

11 Q. It says -- it says here, "Jarcevic, counsellor to the

12 president --"

13 A. I have received a letter that is addressed to Slobodan Milosevic.

14 Q. Sorry. Sorry, sir. Yes. You were given the wrong letter. I

15 have skipped several documents and didn't tell Ms. Dicklich correctly.

16 It is here a request or, rather, a letter that you write to

17 Mr. Jovica Stanisic on the 24th of July, 1994. And it says here:

18 "President Martic instructed me to organise the arrival of the Commission

19 of the Union of Cossacks' armies of Russia and abroad, together with you."

20 And can you -- you are writing here to Mr. Stanisic. Can you say

21 why do that and what was agreed between Mr. Martic and Mr. Stanisic?

22 A. Well, madam, who else could I contact but the organs of the state

23 on whose territory the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is active and the

24 office of the Republic of Srpska Krajina? It is not us who can see to the

25 arrival of foreigners at the airport of the Federal Republic of

Page 49067

1 Yugoslavia. That wasn't up to us. Nor can we issue orders to staff at

2 the airport and the security staff as to what their job should be. So we

3 asked the representative of the Republic of Serbia from the Ministry of

4 the Interior to assist us and see that the delegation of Cossacks from

5 Russia arrive in Belgrade, that we take it over, and take it to Krajina.

6 Had we been in Paris, by any chance, then this letter would have been sent

7 to the Ministry of the Interior of France.

8 Q. It says here in this letter: "We need to have talks with them and

9 to sign a contract on cooperation of RSK and RS with this organisation."

10 So it was a joint action of the RSK and the RS, supported then by MUP

11 Serbia? Is that what it means?

12 A. No, he did not lend support. You can see he was surprised by my

13 letter, but they didn't tell us -- or they didn't say that they weren't

14 meddling in our internal affairs. They didn't say go ahead or don't go

15 ahead.

16 I visited Moscow myself and the Cossack organisation without a

17 single man from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

18 Q. We're not talking about Yugoslavia. We're talking about the MUP

19 of Serbia. Stanisic would actually assist Mr. Milan Martic in all matters

20 related to police; correct?

21 A. You're asking the question in an incorrect way. I say it is the

22 authority of the MUP of Serbia in Belgrade at the airport. I have to

23 respect that. Imagine if I went to France to Orly airport without asking

24 anybody and then to invite guests there who might arrive and fly in

25 without any visas, for that matter, whereas this is a very simple

Page 49068

1 diplomatic step. There's nothing secret there.

2 Q. Mr. Jarcevic --

3 A. Nothing puzzling.

4 Q. -- how long did the RSK office in Belgrade exist, or does it still

5 exist?

6 A. Until -- well, the office of President Martic, until the 26th of

7 February, 1996. At the present time, the government of the Republic of

8 Srpska Krajina has an office there and the exiled government, together

9 with the exiled Assembly, is active, and we showed you yesterday support

10 by 28 deputies from the parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe

11 who signed a request by which Croatia should be returned to its two-nation

12 state status. So that is a success scored by the government in exile of

13 the Republic of Srpska Krajina. Or, on the other hand, the understanding

14 shown by the world towards the suffering that nobody had understood thus

15 far.

16 Q. My last question to you, Mr. Jarcevic: Are you a member of this

17 RSK government in exile?

18 A. Yes, a counsellor or advisor in the government but no longer a

19 minister.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, no further questions.

21 Oh, yes. I would like to ask this last document that's the letter

22 from Mr. Jarcevic be admitted into evidence.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it will be admitted.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 968.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, re-examination?

Page 49069

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Robinson.

2 Re-examination by Mr. Milosevic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Just let's take this in the right order.

4 Mr. Jarcevic from the beginning Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked you something

5 about your activities linked to the suffering of the people in the western

6 part of what was once Yugoslavia, and you explained that you were a member

7 of the Association of Serbs from Bosnia; is that right?

8 A. Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 Q. What did you say?

10 A. I said from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. Right, from Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that what you said?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, since at the beginning of your testimony when you introduced

14 yourself you explained to us that you were one of the rare babies to have

15 survived the Ustasha slaughter, and during that, was Bosnia-Herzegovina a

16 component part of the Independent State of Croatia?

17 A. Yes, and the Serb Muslims were -- were proclaimed the flower of

18 the Muslim nation --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Of the Croatian nation, interpreter's apology.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Now tell me: Was there a difference between the Ustashas'

22 attitude toward Serbs, depending on territory, whether it was Bosnia or

23 Herzegovina or whatever?

24 A. No, equal treatment. And a few days ago I saw a document found in

25 the archives of Sarajevo. It was an order by the State of Croatia to

Page 49070

1 kill, first of all, people between the ages of 30 and 50 and then children

2 up to the age of ten. I was in that category, the latter category, and it

3 was just by chance that I happened to survive. Many of my friends say

4 what a pity.

5 Q. Now, at that time, in 1991, 2, and 3, when you became minister,

6 did you differentiate with respect to the suffering of Serbs in Bosnia and

7 in Croatia?

8 A. No. It was the same, the intimations were the same as they were

9 in 1941.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. You're welcome.

12 Q. Now, the next question Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked you, and in

13 presenting certain United Nations documents here, was linked to the

14 alleged persecution of Croats in Serbia. Because you said that there was

15 no such persecution, and you quite rightly said that, because this one

16 case that happened in Hrtkovci seems to be played here again and again,

17 brought up again and again.

18 Now, in connection with that you were also asked something with

19 respect to a document of some kind. You were shown it at the beginning.

20 The 17th of November, 1992, was the date. A very long document. I'm not

21 going to use it in its entirety. I'd just to highlight certain portions

22 and ask you about them. Have you got the document in front of you? It is

23 the 17th of November. It says: "Human rights questions: Human rights

24 situation and reports of the special rapporteurs and representatives."

25 Have you got that?

Page 49071

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's Exhibit 771, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if you mean a report of

4 the United Nations on human rights.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Yes, the United Nations report, I said at the outset. It's the

7 thickest document that you were provided with and you were given it at the

8 beginning.

9 A. Yes. And what are you asking about it now?

10 Q. Take a look at paragraph 94, which was not quoted. You explained

11 that the subject was incidents which were caused by the refugees from

12 Croatia. That's what you've said.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now take a look at what it says in paragraph 94. Do you have

15 paragraph 94 in front of you?

16 A. I haven't found 94, no. [In English] 94, find me.

17 Q. Paragraphs are numbered in order. It's easy to find them, I

18 believe. Have you found it now?

19 A. [Interpretation] Yes. Serbia and Montenegro received 500.000

20 refugees.

21 Q. It says: "[In English] It should also not be forgotten that

22 Serbia and Montenegro have received some 500.000 refugees from Croatia,

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Slovenia."

24 [Interpretation] And then there's another line: "[In English] The

25 economic sanctions imposed by the United Nations in accordance with its

Page 49072

1 charter have also had effect upon the everyday life of people."

2 [Interpretation] And so on. Now, in this report by the United

3 Nations, could we see this figure of 500.000 refugees already at that

4 time? The number included in the November report.

5 A. If I might be allowed to add, at that point in time the United

6 Nations are introducing the most terrible sanctions against Yugoslavia and

7 the Republic of Srpska Krajina. And if I may state my own personal

8 opinion, this is the dark side of our civilisation.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you answer the question? Did you answer --

10 you have not --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did, yes. The president

12 asked me what the situation was like with these 500.000 refugees.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Now take a look at paragraph 123, point 123, which speaks of the

15 following or, rather, it's about -- more about what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff

16 asked you. And you said that the refugees caused the incident. Was that

17 common knowledge? That's my question to you. Was that known at the time

18 to the international organisations and the UN? What does paragraph 123

19 state? "[In English] The outbreak of fighting in neighbouring parts of

20 Croatia and the influx of Serbian refugees coincided with an increase in

21 incidents of harassment and violence against non-Serbs in Vojvodina."

22 [Interpretation] And then a few lines on they quote our government

23 and say: "[In English] In recent special report to the human rights

24 committee, the federal government, stated [no interpretation] Some of

25 these people fleeing from conflict in the hope of saving their lives and

Page 49073

1 those of their families have arrived in the Federal Republic of

2 Yugoslavia, bringing with them their weapons, resolve to set up a new home

3 even if it means using force to achieve their aim at the expense of the

4 people belonging to non-Serb nations -" [Interpretation] in bracket - "[In

5 English] Croats and others, whom they regard as enemies simply because

6 they do not belong to the Serb nation."

7 [Interpretation] So that is a report by our government quoted

8 here, and then we have a quotation or, rather, Hrtkovci are quoted, are

9 mentioned, Hrtkovci.

10 And four lines on, what does it say here? "[In English] The

11 government indicates that the Serbian Ministry of the Interior has begun

12 an inquiry to determine whether there was any complicity by local

13 authorities in these events that large quantity of weapons and explosives

14 have been seized and that a number of individuals have been charged with

15 criminal offences, including homicide."

16 [Interpretation] Do you know that that was the only killing then?

17 A. Mr. President, I really don't know how many killings there were,

18 but this report is one I've never seen before, and I'm very happy to have

19 confirmed what it says in it.

20 Q. Do you know, Mr. Jarcevic, that the people who perpetrated the

21 killing in Hrtkovci were arrested and taken to trial, that single killing?

22 A. Well, it's not my fault that I don't know about it.

23 Q. All right, fine. Let's move on. You went on to answer questions

24 put to you by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff and quoted a document from which we can

25 see that in Republika Srpska Krajina there was also persecution of

Page 49074

1 individuals who had -- or prosecutions of individuals who had committed

2 crimes against Croats. You quoted that.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So in that document that quoted, did it say that five Croats had

5 been killed, as far as I remember - I haven't got the document in front of

6 me - and that it also gave the name of the suspect who was arrested?

7 A. Yes, and information that he was apprehended.

8 Q. And it stated that the man was a Serb?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That he was apprehended by the Krajina authorities?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then we had other examples?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So now, what do you know about this? Did the Republic of Srpska

15 Krajina function as a state ruled by law and prosecuted crimes perpetrated

16 on its territory without discrimination, and here we can say that it is

17 prosecuting people for committing crimes against Croats?

18 A. Yes, and there were many similar cases. I can't quote them all

19 now because, as I say, the archives are to be found in Zagreb today, so I

20 can't look them up.

21 Q. Well, I assume that they do have certain facts and figures that

22 can be found, but anyway, Mr. Jarcevic, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff -- well, thank

23 you for your answer, but Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff then challenged your

24 assertions in connection with your findings and attitude and position in

25 Krajina about the population structure there.

Page 49075

1 I'm not going to use three documents, I'm just going to use the

2 first document, which is the population census of households, apartments

3 and so on of the Republican Institute for Statistics for Croatia, and the

4 year is 1992. Please take up that document, have a look at the report.

5 She showed you the third page of it, and the document has a total of three

6 pages, in fact. You were shown page 3 where we can see the figures. Have

7 you found the document?

8 A. Yes, I've received it. Go ahead, please.

9 Q. Take a look at -- well, we can see the 48, 53, 61, 71, 81, and 91

10 population census.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And take a look here. In 1971, it has -- says 626.789 Serbs, and

13 in 1991 5 -- 581.663.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, have a look at when this figure occurs in the 9 -- in the

16 1971 census and then in the 1981 census.

17 A. Let me find those figures.

18 Q. Yes. Follow that column for 1981. How many Yugoslavs were there

19 that year? 379.000, and in the previous census there were only 84.000.

20 What happened there?

21 A. Well, many Serbs declared themselves as Yugoslavs, and I've

22 already stated that. About 80 per cent of them, in fact.

23 Q. What did you say? 80 per cent of Serbs declared themselves as

24 Yugoslavs whereas they were Serbs; is that what you're saying?

25 A. Yes. Those are the estimates. And many researchers in Belgrade

Page 49076

1 agree with those estimates.

2 Q. Now, if we were to add that number to the 531.000 minus 20 per

3 cent, that would make it about 831.000 Serbs in Croatia.

4 A. Yes, and I said about a million.

5 Q. Do these figures indicate that?

6 A. Yes, sir, and I'm sorry that they didn't believe me when I said

7 it. I didn't know that I should do the calculations and sums as you've

8 just done them.

9 Q. Well, they're just figures, nothing other than that here.

10 A. Yes. I said in general terms a million-plus Yugoslavs.

11 Q. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff put on the overhead projector the document you

12 provided about the police report from Zadar relating to the number of

13 fires and explosions. I'm sure you'll remember. I won't have it placed

14 on the overhead projector again. We've already had a look at it twice;

15 when I presented it and when Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff presented it.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, do you know about a phenomenon that was termed the crystal

18 night in Zadar?

19 A. Yes. It was a pogrom of the Serbs similar to the one that took

20 place in Zagreb, and I apologise to go back in history again, but it

21 happened in 1902.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Last question, Mr. Milosevic [microphone not

23 activated].

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Jarcevic, is it probable that those hundreds of explosions and

Page 49077

1 houses, is it possible that it was the Serbs blowing up Croat houses, or

2 was it destruction of Serb houses and fires and explosions blowing up Serb

3 houses?

4 A. Since all -- it was only the Serbs that filed lawsuits for this

5 there, might have been one or two against Croats in the Republic of Srpska

6 Krajina, but for the most part these were Serb houses, Serb villas, Serb

7 shops and other facilities and including fisheries, et cetera.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please slow down. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm going to stop. The

10 interpreter is asking you to slow down, but we're going to adjourn for

11 today and we'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.

12 MR. NICE: Your Honour. Your Honours, just one -- one

13 observation.


15 MR. NICE: The next witness, Ms. Mahon. There are no exhibits for

16 her. The 65 ter summary is exiguous in the extreme. It says almost

17 nothing. If there is any way that the accused, by providing an advance

18 notice -- she's an English witness, so any notes that she and he have made

19 will be in English, if there are any notes that can be provided so that we

20 know the scope of her evidence, this would be of great assistance and

21 would more likely guarantee her conclusion tomorrow so that there is no

22 question of her coming back next week.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. We will adjourn until tomorrow at

24 9.00.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

Page 49078

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of March,

2 2006, at 9.00 a.m.