1 Thursday, 23 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Could you please call the

6 case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T,

8 the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Appearances, please.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Nicholas Koumjian with Ruth Karper for the

11 Prosecution. Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon.

13 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon. Branko Lukic and Mr. John Ostojic for

14 the Defence.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: On purpose, I asked not to bring in the witness

16 because we have to clarify something and not in the presence of the

17 witness. Yesterday, Mr. Koumjian, you --

18 Yesterday, Mr. Koumjian, you mentioned as regards our present

19 witness that there is a proofing binder that they, meaning the Defence,

20 got with this witness. Could you please explain about the proofing binder

21 and why it is not in the hands of the Judges.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, I corrected myself, I believe later. The

23 proofing binder is an OTP internal document the Defence doesn't have. The

24 Defence has all statements of the witness and all prior testimony of the

25 witness.

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And what about -- we discussed it before -- the

2 proofing notes, because once again, one can identify a discrepancy between

3 the former statement and what the witness actually said. And I'm not

4 aware that we have any proofing notes on this witness.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, no proofing notes were prepared for this

6 witness. And to be honest, I'm not sure of the discrepancy Your Honour is

7 referring to. I proofed the witness, and although I mentioned a couple

8 things that were outside the testimony to the Defence, I didn't see any

9 discrepancies or significant new material. Undoubtedly he said some

10 things that are not in the prior statement, but no significant new

11 material in the proofing.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then, in addition also, in the absence of the

13 witness, yesterday, we admitted into evidence S51. First of all, it was

14 focussed on the map before us. Then we got some informations on the

15 pictures, 11 and 10. But I don't believe it's fair to introduce something

16 into evidence just in the form of "by the way, there are additional

17 pictures," and they are, as it's on one piece of paper, admitted into

18 evidence as one entire document, knowing very well that in part, we have

19 already these documents in the list of -- in the file of Prijedor

20 photographs before us. And I think, for example, when discussing the way

21 of destruction and the degree of destruction of the mosque in Kozarac, one

22 shouldn't refer to this small picture we have here on 11, but we have

23 other pictures of the mosque available. And we have numerous pictures of

24 the camps available. In the past, the Office of the Prosecutor always

25 asked a person detained in a camp where did he live, where was the

1 situation, actual situation of an incident that happened. But it wasn't

2 the case today. And this would bring us to the situation that at the end

3 of the day, we have to once again repeat, in part, the interrogation of a

4 witness ex officio by the Trial Chamber. And I think this is not in the

5 spirit of this adversarial procedure. And my point is why didn't the

6 Prosecutor introduce the other remarkable photographs, for example, of the

7 mosque, of the Trnopolje camp, through the witness before us?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, Your Honour, part of the reason is trying to

9 finish with the witness in a reasonable period of time. We can go through

10 with each witness in Omarska, the various rooms they were held in, have

11 each witness describe the camp location. My understanding from some of

12 the Court's -- Trial Chamber's previous remarks is the Court did not want

13 to repeat testimony that was unchallenged. Any time I show a document to

14 a witness, obviously that takes some period of time.

15 Regarding the photographs, the next witness the Prosecution has

16 scheduled is an investigator who would testify to the source of the

17 photographs, when they were taken, who took the photographs. We could

18 show all the pictures, most of our witnesses are familiar with many of the

19 pictures that we have. But it would greatly lengthen the proceedings. We

20 are really trying to focus on the issues that are most in dispute.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Respectfully, my objections, for example,

22 picture 8 we discussed yesterday. We have a very small picture, and of

23 course the question was raised by the Defence: When was this picture

24 taken? And we did discuss this situation, of course, in Omarska at

25 length, but never until now the situation of the buildings in Trnopolje.

1 And we have the same picture in this folder, but in a better way and in a

2 way easier to understand and easier to be explained. And I don't think

3 it's a good idea to let things be explained by an investigator, when we

4 have a person here having lived in the concrete circumstances of this

5 environment. Because from the point of view, let's say, of a Defence

6 counsel, I would contest pictures of the interior of a camp. It should be

7 explained by a witness. Was it really the situation the witness saw and

8 experienced at that time he was there under detention, and it's not

9 relevant at all what an investigator saw in 1996 or 1995.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sorry, is Your Honour waiting for a response?

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, indeed.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: I understand that's Your Honour's point of view. I

13 conducted the examination focussing on what I thought was most at issue.

14 But we can show these witnesses the photographs, each of them each of the

15 camps they were in. I would be happy to do it with this witness and with

16 the witnesses to come.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it also be in the interest of the

18 Defence, for example, the degree of destruction of a mosque, the interior

19 of a camp, if it's really reliable information. We all know that today,

20 pictures can lie, and therefore I personally don't want to have introduced

21 this kind of evidence. Let's call it evidence by an investigator. And as

22 far as I know, until now, we went through the details of Omarska, but not

23 Trnopolje, not Manjaca. And therefore, the possibility should not be

24 omitted. Of course, you can leave it for the Judges if you so want.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: We didn't go through the physical layouts and the

1 photographs of the Trnopolje camp, but this witness discussed the

2 conditions that he was detained under only for a couple of days. And the

3 issue that we feel is very, very important, and I believe in dispute

4 regarding Trnopolje, and that's that it was in fact a detention camp and

5 people were not free to leave.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So do you want to continue with the

7 examination --

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: I was going to ask anyway, because I also

9 noticed -- I realised after the examination that I forgot one very

10 fundamental question regarding the witness's background, and that is his

11 ethnicity.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. I think it would be appropriate, and it

13 would assist the work of the Bench, we discussed it before this hearing,

14 if you can also put the questions to the witness underlying the pictures

15 we have available in the file on Prijedor photographs.

16 Any observations by the Defence?

17 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, may I be excused for 10, 15 minutes,

18 please, to bring some materials.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No doubt. You need a break?

20 MR. LUKIC: No, no. I'll leave.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: If the Court has asked for an observation, I do have

24 one if the Court permits, and that is particularly with -- since we're

25 discussing the issue of the Trnopolje camp and namely picture 8 on Exhibit

1 S51. If the Prosecutor, to the extent they do have a picture aerial or

2 otherwise reflecting the southern portion of the camp, we do have the

3 enlargement showing only from this border. But we think, and we will try

4 to obtain that as well, but for the purposes of the trial and the

5 proceedings here, that if the aerial view was taken and entire the

6 complex, both the south, north, east, west can be seen, then that might

7 enhance the appreciation of the area for both sides. So, to the extent

8 that they have that. I haven't seen it yet.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Indeed. And also the OTP may understand, it

10 can't be a guessing game for the Judges. To see here pictures 5-8 to 5-H,

11 and yes, as the Defence correctly stated, to guess what is what, we have

12 additional -- it's said that this should be additional pictures from the

13 Trnopolje camp. And therefore, we need some explanation. And this should

14 go through a witness having experienced the situation there. And the

15 additional information you wanted as to the dates when the pictures were

16 taken, you can identify them on these pictures. And evidently, once

17 again, one has to say that there is a significant change of the mosque on

18 the one picture, 11, and the other picture we have before us, taken in

19 1996.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: We just weren't sure, Your Honour, at the top of --,

21 when we examined this initially, whether they were exactly the same or

22 not. So that's why we just inquired on those dates on this picture. We

23 will go back and make that study and do the comparison. Thank you.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So is the Defence prepared? May we continue?

25 MR. OSTOJIC: We may, but I have one other preliminary comment.

1 And I'd like a little guidance from the Court if you would be so kind.

2 And it involves S51P which was marked as confidential. So I'm not sure if

3 I can discuss any portion of it now and would ask, perhaps, we go into

4 private session for that, because I do have some questions not just from

5 the witness but I'd like some guidance from the Court on this as well.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's turn into private session.

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1 (redacted).

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, Witness P.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

6 WITNESS: WITNESS P [Resumed]

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examined by Mr. Koumjian: [Continued]

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Mr. President, may I proceed?

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN:

12 Q. Witness P, I neglected to ask you yesterday, would you tell the

13 Tribunal what your ethnicity is?

14 A. I'm a Bosniak, and my religion is Muslim.

15 Q. Witness P, I would now to show you a series of photographs, the

16 first --

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm going to show the witness. I don't know if the

18 registry has them. The photographs labelled 2, 5, and 9. These series on

19 the index of Prijedor photographs in Exhibit 15. The ERN on the 2A is

20 00393467. On 2B, it's 00393191. 2C, 00393202. 2D, 00393081. 2E,

21 00394827. And 2F, 00393193.

22 Thank you.

23 Q. Witness P, before you is on Exhibit S15, photograph 2A which is --

24 can you please tell us if you recognise the structures depicted.

25 A. I recognise the old cinema. It's depicted here on this

1 photograph. This building here is the elementary school in Kozarac. I

2 can't be specific about this mosque here because I cannot say where this

3 photograph was taken from. But I'm sure it's one of the mosques in

4 Kozarac.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Mr. President, for the record, can the record

6 reflect referred first to the structure in -- the photograph in the top

7 right, then the bottom right, and finally the mosque was the left-hand

8 side of the exhibit.

9 Q. Sir, I'd like to now show you photograph 2B of this exhibit. Do

10 you recognise the structure depicted in this photograph?

11 A. I think that this is the same mosque that we saw on the previous

12 photograph, only now it has been destroyed.

13 Q. And you're not sure which mosque this is. Is that correct?

14 A. I think that it is the Dera mosque.

15 Q. Now, I'd like to show you photograph 2C. Do you recognise what's

16 depicted in this photograph?

17 A. These are the remnants of some of -- of one of the many mosques in

18 Kozarac, but I can't really say which one it is.

19 Q. Now I'd like to show you 2D. Sorry.

20 A. Perhaps, on the basis of this old tree here, it could be the

21 mosque in Kamicani, but I'm not sure. It's a linden tree.

22 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you 2D. And for the record, the

23 witness's last answer was referring to 2C.

24 Showing you now 2D, do you recognise what's depicted?

25 A. On this picture, you can see the church on the old Prijedor/Banja

1 Luka Road. It's in fact the only church in Kozarac. It's a Serbian

2 church.

3 Q. Did you see that church prior to the conflict and after the

4 conflict?

5 A. I had seen the church before the conflict and after. Its state

6 remained the same, but a new church is being built next to it.

7 Q. I'd now like to show you 2E. Witness P, do you recognise what's

8 depicted in this photograph?

9 A. This is the Kozarac area. The photograph was taken from the

10 side -- I don't know the exact position where the photograph was taken,

11 but on the basis of the school and the mosque and the new school, I'm

12 absolutely sure that it is Kozarac, Kozarac area.

13 Q. You indicated the mosque. Can you point again to the mosque that

14 you're referring to.

15 A. In this case, this is the mosque that I think is the one that we

16 saw on the pictures a little while ago.

17 Q. Witness P, are you familiar with a mosque known as Mutnicka?

18 A. Both Mutnik and Dera mosques were within 50 metres -- 500 metres

19 of each other.

20 Q. Did you see the Mutnik mosque after the attack on Kozarac?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you see it when you returned to Kozarac in 1997?

23 A. It was no longer there at that time.

24 Q. Have you heard, Witness P, of the Kalata mosque?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you see that mosque after the attack on Kozarac?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. Did you see that mosque in 1997 when you returned?

4 A. It was generally known that no mosque in the territory of Kozarac,

5 the total of 16 or 17 mosques, remained in their normal state.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'd now like to show you a series of

7 photographs from the same exhibit, photographs A through H. And for the

8 record, 5A will read sequentially the ERN numbers 02147089, B is 00389747,

9 C is 02147092, D is 0214 --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down with the

11 numbers.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: D is 02147093. E is 02147091. F is 00452537. G

13 is 00452507. H is 00452516.

14 Q. Showing you first 5A. Witness P, do you recognise the area

15 depicted?

16 A. This is the picture of Trnopolje, the school. This here is the

17 old hall with the auxiliary buildings, and this here was the shop.

18 Q. Where were the persons detained kept, or where did they sleep in

19 the Trnopolje camp?

20 A. The entire school was full, this hall here, behind this area. And

21 all over this area, there were tents, vehicles, trailers, cars. It was

22 all full of people.

23 Q. And for the record, the second building -- the witness first

24 referred to the school in the bottom right, and then referred to the white

25 building in the bottom left of the photograph.

1 I'm showing you now 5B. Witness, do you recognise and can you

2 tell us what is depicted in this photograph?

3 A. I think it's the same school in Trnopolje that I was just talking

4 about.

5 Q. I'm showing you now 5C. Can you explain, if you recognise this,

6 what it is?

7 A. This is a building in Trnopolje. Behind this building is the hall

8 that I was talking about. The camp commander, the Trnopolje camp

9 commander, the Red Cross, and the so-called infirmary were located in the

10 front part of the building. The infirmary was operating at that time in

11 the Trnopolje camp.

12 Q. Thank you. Showing you now 5D. Can you tell us what is depicted?

13 A. This is a small shop. It is here in the extension of the building

14 that we just saw on the previous photograph. It is the extension to the

15 north.

16 Q. What was this building used for when you were at the camp?

17 A. During my stay, the shop was open for the two or three days. And

18 after I left, I don't know.

19 Q. Thank you. Showing -- when you say it was open, what do you mean?

20 Were detainees inside that shop, or what was it used for? Were goods

21 sold?

22 A. One could still buy the remaining items that were in the shop.

23 Q. Now showing you 5E. Can you tell us if you recognise what is

24 depicted?

25 A. I think that this photograph was taken in front of this centre in

1 Trnopolje, and across the road -- I don't know whether there were a cafe

2 here or a shop. I'm not sure. But at any rate, it is a picture depicting

3 Trnopolje.

4 Q. I'm sorry.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Does the usher have the photographs labelled 7? I

6 know I didn't ask for them earlier. Let's go to 9 for now.

7 Q. Going to photograph 9A, I'm going to skip the rest of the 5

8 photographs. I'm sorry, I will go back to those three photographs just to

9 see something.

10 I'm going to show you three photographs. The usher is now going

11 to put on 5F. Just tell me if you know the person depicted. 5F, ending

12 in 2537 is the ERN. Do you know this man?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. Thank you. I don't think you'll recognise someone's back, so

15 going then to 5H. Do you recognise this person depicted in the photograph

16 the usher is now showing?

17 A. No, I don't.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you.

19 Now going to photograph 9, series 9. And I will read slowly the

20 ERN numbers of these six photographs. They are 9A, 01002444, 9B,

21 02123687, 9D, apparently there's no C, 00409597, 9E, 00409596, 9F,

22 00409592, and 9G, 00409598. Showing you first photograph 9A, Witness P,

23 can you tell us what is depicted.

24 A. This is the Omarska camp.

25 Q. Can you point out on that photograph some of the structures where

1 people were detained?

2 A. Most of the people were held during the night on the first floor

3 of this building here. Some of the people were held in a small garage

4 behind the kitchen. And a part were held in the central part of the

5 kitchen which was called the glass house. And some of the women were held

6 during the day in one of the corners of the kitchen. A certain number of

7 people were held here on the pista, during the day. And in the early days

8 of the existence of the camp, some slept in the kitchen. And during the

9 second half of the existence of the camp, they slept here in this building

10 on the floor, this building was called the hangar.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: For the record, the witness first referred to the

13 large L-shaped, somewhat reddish in colour building in the centre of the

14 photograph. He then referred to the more orange-coloured smaller

15 structures to the left of the photograph. He referred to the pista as

16 being the area between those structures.

17 Q. Witness P, where was the hangar again that you referred to? Can

18 you point to that.

19 A. There were two floors here, two storeys. On the upper floor,

20 people were housed throughout the building, and some were held on the

21 ground floor in the hangar. You could also see the white house, the red

22 house, and here there should be a transformer station. I think it's the

23 little white building here.

24 Q. Okay.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just for the record, the witness pointed to the

1 white house as a white structure in the centre of the photograph; the red

2 house as a building just to the right of the large centre structure

3 reddish in colour, and just below and to the right of the large reddish

4 structure.

5 Q. And Witness, I'm still having a little trouble with the hangar.

6 Can you point again where the hangar is.

7 A. We called the structure the hangar. It was for the people who

8 stayed on the pista. And they also then stayed in an open structure here

9 to the left as you got in. It was an open structure.

10 Q. Showing you now 9B. Do you recognise what's depicted?

11 A. I've never seen these beds in my life.

12 Q. Thank you. Going now to 9D. I believe I have a different one.

13 It should end in 9597.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Can the usher tell us the ERN of that.

15 For the record, this is 9E.

16 Q. Witness, do you recognise what's depicted on 9E, this photograph

17 that's now to your right?

18 A. This is a scale model of the Omarska camp. The white house, the

19 red house, the garage with the hangar, and the kitchen.

20 Q. So to be clear again, the garage with the hangar is the building

21 on the right-hand side of the photograph. Is that correct? Can you point

22 to it again, to the hangar.

23 A. We called these rooms here on the ground floor the hangar.

24 Q. Okay. Excuse me.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: The witness pointed to the large structure to the

1 left of the photograph with the open white spaces.

2 Q. And can you show where the white house and red house are on these

3 photographs.

4 A. The white house. The red house.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Indicating the small white house to the centre of

7 the -- top centre of the photograph, and the very top left of the

8 photograph, the red house.

9 Q. Now, showing you -- why don't we put the next one up, and I'll

10 read out the letter after I see the photograph. This is ERN number 9592.

11 This is photograph 9F of S15. And Witness, do you recognise this as just

12 a different view of the same structures?

13 A. Yes, I do recognise it.

14 Q. Can you tell us, where were you kept during your stay at Omarska?

15 A. Here, in this corner. The room on the top floor, the windows

16 here, that's where we were for a while. And during the later stage of my

17 stay in the camp, I slept somewhere here in the offices, that we opened by

18 force in order to have more room to sleep in.

19 Q. The night that you saw the people from Hambarine being shot, can

20 you tell us which room were you in that night?

21 A. I was in one of the rooms here on the top floor.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Indicating on the large structure on the

23 photograph, to the left of the structure, on the portion of the building

24 facing the camera.

25 Q. And can you point out, if it's -- if the area is depicted on this

1 photograph, where the bodies were that you saw lying on the ground.

2 A. The bodies were scattered in groups in the area around the white

3 house. Behind it. Over a large area because the number of bodies was

4 quite large.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, I'd like that photograph 9G, which 9598.

6 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph as being a model of the

7 Omarska building with the roof or ceiling removed?

8 A. Well, I don't really understand the layout. I don't really see

9 it.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Did we ever find 9597? D.

12 Q. Witness, again, do you recognise this as the Omarska building?

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Excuse me, that's not 9597.

14 Q. Witness, can you tell us if you recognise what is depicted in this

15 photograph?

16 A. This is the kitchen in the Omarska camp.

17 Q. Where exactly is the kitchen? Can you point to it?

18 A. This is the kitchen. That's where we ate.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Indicating the glass area to the left of the

20 photograph.

21 Q. Was there a guard post somewhere in this photograph?

22 A. The guard post was located on the roof of the kitchen.

23 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to show you some photographs of the --

24 labelled 7A, 7B, and 7C.

25 Witness, showing you 7A which has the ERN 00396712. Do you

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1 recognise this photograph?

2 A. This is the Manjaca camp.

3 Q. What part of the camp is that? From where the person is taking

4 the picture, is he standing inside or outside of the camp? Can you tell?

5 A. I think this is a mirror image, it seems to me. Well, on the

6 basis of this plaque here, the person who took the photograph stood in

7 front of the camp.

8 Q. Okay. And where is this in relation to where the buses, that you

9 were on that transported you to Manjaca, stopped?

10 A. This location -- well, we may have been about 50 metres away to

11 the right from this place. That's where we were, on a meadow.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, showing you 7B, do you recognise what is depicted

13 on this photograph?

14 A. This is one of the boxes in one of the barns where the prisoners

15 were held. There was another row of prisoners here, another there, and

16 there were also prisoners on the higher level, and there was another level

17 which was level with this one that he is depicted here.

18 Q. Thank you. I noticed people have their shoes off. Does that have

19 any significance? Can you explain that?

20 A. Well, because of the intense heat in the first few days, and in

21 order to freshen up a little, people would take off their shoes and put

22 them on the concrete or on the gravel to rest a bit, to rest their feet.

23 There was no special rule requiring us to take off our shoes, but most

24 people did take off their shoes.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. For the record, this photograph has the

1 ERN number of 00464997.

2 Q. Now, showing you 7C, 00456983, can you tell us what is depicted in

3 this photograph?

4 A. On this picture, you can see the prisoners in one of the barns in

5 the Manjaca camp. It is -- this was taken from an elevated position of

6 the barn, and it covers the central part of the barn.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would at this time -- well, this is already in --

11 Excuse me.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's necessary that we go immediately

13 and proceed with giving these exhibits the correct numbers. Are there any

14 objections against the admission into evidence of these pictures?

15 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then if the registry could, please,

17 confirm the following: Picture 2A should be S15-4. 2B, S15-5. 2C,

18 S15-6. 2D, S15-7. 2E, S15-8. 5A, S15-9. 5B, S15-10. 5C, S15-11.

19 5D, S15-12. 5E, S15-13. 5F, S15-14. 5G, S15-15. 5H, S15-16.

20 Now we have a problem, I believe.

21 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I don't think, was 5G

22 presented to the witness? I don't recall that.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: That wasn't shown, the back of the prisoner was not

24 shown.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So 5G, let us proceed. We had 5F as S15-14.

1 Then we continue with 5H. Correct? S15-15. Right. Then we continue

2 with 9A as S15-16. 9B, S15-17. 9D was already previously admitted as

3 S15-3. Same was true for 9E. That was S15-2. But we have to proceed

4 now with 9F. That is S15-18. 9G, S15-19. And then finally, 7A,

5 S15-20. 7B, S15-21. 7C, S15-22.

6 Can this be confirmed.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is confirmed.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. I think it's necessary to have a

9 break before we start the cross-examination, and I want explicitly to

10 thank you, Witness P, that you gave us another insight relating that what

11 you told us yesterday to the pictures we saw. We have never been there,

12 unfortunately, but it's for us to get a very real picture of that you have

13 experienced at that time. Thank you for this.

14 The trial stands adjourned until 4.00 sharp.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Mr. President, could I request permission to ask

19 regarding one photograph, that I realised when the Court was doing the

20 marking, I had talked about but had not shown to the witness, and that

21 would be 2F.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no objections, so please.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN:

24 Q. Witness, showing you 2F, which is ERN number 00393193, do you

25 recognise what is depicted on the photograph?

1 A. Well, I see destroyed houses, but I don't know in which part of

2 Kozarac they are located.

3 Q. Is the scene depicted in this photograph typical or atypical of

4 how Kozarac looked after the conflict?

5 A. This is what Kozarac looked like a year or two prior to the

6 takeover of Kozarac.

7 Q. I'm sorry, Witness, as I understood your answer from the

8 interpretation, you said this is what it looked like, the photograph in

9 front of you, before the takeover?

10 A. No, no.

11 Q. Perhaps you could restate your answer. This is what Kozarac

12 looked like when?

13 A. As far as I can remember, 1997, this is -- was the state of

14 Kozarac then, so this was the year -- a year after the take -- a few years

15 following the takeover of Kozarac.

16 Q. You're talking about in 1997 when you returned to Kozarac, this is

17 what you saw typically. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: No further questions.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we now finally turn to the

22 cross-examination, please.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President..

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Witness P, my name is John Ostojic, and along with

1 Mr. Branko Lukic --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

3 MR. OSTOJIC:

4 Q. I apologise. Good afternoon, Witness P, my name is John Ostojic,

5 and along with Mr. Branko Lukic, we represent Dr. Milomir Stakic. I'm

6 going to ask you a series of questions here today. If at any time you

7 don't understand my question or would like to elaborate on any of the

8 questions, please, as the president of the Chamber has indicated earlier,

9 please feel free to do so. Is that fair enough?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Preliminarily, sir, I'd like to ask you if you recall giving a-

12 statement to the ICTY on or about August 26th through August 30th, 1994,

13 statement which was signed on or about September 1st, 1994.

14 A. Well, the statement -- I gave the statement -- I don't know which

15 year exactly. This may be correct.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness P. I'm going to show you a statement in a

17 little bit. I just have some preliminary questions in connection with

18 that. Sir, at any time prior or subsequent to the statement that you gave

19 to the ICTY, did you give a statement or were you interviewed by any

20 governmental entity in connection with you being detained in Omarska in

21 1992?

22 A. I believe that my first official statement was in the year 1994.

23 Q. And was the statement that you gave in 1994 a statement that you

24 gave to the governmental agencies of the Republic of Bosnia?

25 A. I don't think so.

1 Q. At any time, sir, did you give any such statement to a

2 governmental entity on behalf or represented by the Republic of Bosnia?

3 A. Well, only if the people in 1994 lied to me.

4 Q. I'm not sure I understand your answer, Witness P. Would you help

5 clarify it for me, if you don't mind.

6 A. This is only possible if the people in 1994 lied about their

7 identity.

8 Q. Fair enough. I understand. Thank you. Sir, do you remember a

9 gentleman who was interviewing you during this 1994 statement by the name

10 of Michael Keegan?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So is it fair to state, sir, as you sit here, do you remember any

13 of the individuals who interviewed you on or about August of 1994?

14 A. Well, there was the translator. That was one person. And I'm

15 sure some foreigners were there, so I had no doubts that these were

16 institutions that were not within the frameworks of the Tribunal.

17 Q. All I'm seeking, Mr. Witness P, is whether or not you gave any

18 other statements other than the one statement in 1994, if you remember.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. I'd like, with the Court's permission, to go into

21 private session to have the witness or ask the witness some questions in

22 connection with Exhibit Number S52. And also, if I'm permitted, for the

23 record, during our prior private session, I referenced this exhibit as

24 S51P. I was notified by the Registrar that I incorrectly identified that

25 exhibit, so to the extent possible, if I can just make a note that during

1 that discussion, I was referencing the two-page document, correctly

2 identified as S52.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was quite clear that it was a fata

4 demonstratio [phoen], but nevertheless, I believe in the interest of the

5 witness, we should go into closed session, because it could be necessary

6 to put this document on the ELMO.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 [Closed session]

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14 [Open session]

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Proceed, Your Honour?

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Now it's confirmed. Please.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, apologise.

18 Q. Mr. Witness P, with respect to the war in 1991 in Croatia, is it

19 true that in your statement that you stated, in fact, that the Muslims had

20 fought on the Croatian side, and the Serbians felt an enmity to the

21 Muslims, as a result of them having fought on the Croatian side -- and

22 that can be found on page 4, first full paragraph of your statement.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know, sir, if all the Muslims fought on the Croatian side

25 during the war between Croatia and Yugoslavia in 1991, or some, or a few?

1 A. I don't have such information. Some individuals did, I'm sure.

2 Q. Do you know, sir, whether there were any mobilisations called by

3 the JNA or the federal former Yugoslavia in 1991?

4 A. Even though it may have been called, I did not respond to go and

5 fight in Croatia, although the Serbs went to fight in Croatia voluntarily.

6 Q. The answer that I received, sir -- and I need to just have a

7 little clarification on it -- was it voluntary or was it a mandatory

8 mobilisation that was called for the residents of the area in which you

9 resided in 1991, if you know?

10 A. I don't remember what happened.

11 Q. Do you know, sir, if Alija Izetbegovic in April or May of 1992,

12 whether he announced a call for mobilisation at that time?

13 A. I never did hear this statement, and over the last few months, we

14 had no contact with him. So I didn't see or hear any such declarations or

15 statements.

16 Q. Thank you. If I may ask the Court's permission to have the usher

17 present to Witness P Exhibit S51, or S51P, whichever one is available.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: If we are in open session, it has to be S51.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: S51. Thank you. Thank you.

20 Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness P, in connection with this S51, I'd like to ask you some

22 questions, with respect to Kozara which we see in the centre of the

23 picture, as well as the red lines which indicate the main road from

24 Prijedor to Banja Luka. But first, let me ask you about the town in which

25 you lived in. There's something that I saw, I believe, in your statement

1 called a "Mjesna Zajednica". Do you know what that is?

2 A. It's an institution where the registry office was housed, I mean

3 the Kozarac registry office and where marriages were performed, various

4 cultural events. There was also the old-age pensioners' home on the other

5 side of that building. So it was a building, a public building.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted) that also were

12 separate from the Kozarac Mjesna Zajednica such as Gornji or Donja

13 Jakupovici?

14 A. I know for certain for some areas. Kozarusa had its own. I'm not

15 sure about whether Babici and Jakupovici had their own. Kevljani had

16 their own smaller branch, which was again subordinate through Omarska or

17 through Kamicani to Prijedor municipality. I'm not sure what the

18 structure was like. They existed in some places; in some other places,

19 there weren't any. I'm not sure.

20 Q. Thank you. Sir, I'm going to discuss with you now, if I may, the

21 issue of checkpoints in the area that was covered yesterday in some

22 detail. I hope not to repeat any of the questions, and I apologise in

23 advance to the extent that I do. But if you can bear with me, I'd

24 appreciate it very much.

25 Were Muslim checkpoints, Witness P, set up in the area of Kozarac

1 before April 30th, 1992?

2 A. At that time, there were joint checkpoints manned by the

3 Territorial Defence, the old Territorial Defence which had members both

4 from Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, and which was armed with the old weapons

5 that the Territorial Defence had.

6 Q. So is it fair to say, then, that in the Kozarac area, was there

7 more than one checkpoint, whether it be manned by the Serbs, the Muslims,

8 or a combination of the two, prior to April 30th, 1992. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Having travelled, as you've indicated in your direct testimony

11 here yesterday, to and from Banja Luka in connection with your business,

12 can you identify for us, on this main road identified as Prijedor/Banja

13 Luka main road, where those checkpoints were prior to April 30th, 1992?

14 A. Before the 30th of April, the first checkpoint was located at the

15 Omarska intersection. The second checkpoint was at Tunjica near Banja

16 Luka.

17 Q. Witness P, do we see Tunjica on the map?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Can you show us, in relation to Omarska, on the map where Tunjica

20 would be, the second checkpoint.

21 A. Well, if we take the distance from Kozarac, you would have to take

22 this road and travel for about 40 kilometres in the direction of Banja

23 Luka, more or less, and then you would come across the Tunjica checkpoint

24 which was set up at the time when the power in Banja Luka was taken over

25 by the red berets, the army. I don't know. Whoever it was. And it was

1 operational until the very last days when I was able to move freely.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but just in the interests

3 of caution, the witness at one point, and I'm not sure of the exact page,

4 indicated where his registration office was. Just for purposes of the

5 transcript, that's at 16.32, I believe. May that be redacted.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: No objection, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: [No microphone]

8 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed, Your Honour. Thank you.

9 Q. Witness P, other than those two checkpoints, prior to April 30th,

10 1992, were there any other checkpoints on or around the area of Kozarac?

11 A. I think that there were joint checkpoints in Gornji Jakupovici,

12 together -- they were also manned by the inhabitants of Babici. There was

13 another joint checkpoint manned by the inhabitants from Kevljani and

14 Omarska. There was another checkpoint near Trnopolje. It was a joint

15 checkpoint manned by the residents from the area. It was at the access

16 road to the village of Babici. There was another checkpoint of that

17 nature in the area of Koncari, although it was not set up on the main

18 road, Prijedor/Banja Luka Road. And at that checkpoint, no controls were

19 made. They were set up on a section of the old Prijedor/Banja Luka Road in

20 a corner, so to speak. And they never ran any checks. I'm referring to

21 the time period until the 30th of April.

22 Q. Thank you for that clarification, as I am as well.

23 Can you tell us the date in which these checkpoints, that you've

24 just identified for us, ceased being manned by the joint entities Serb and

25 Muslim?

1 A. On that night when Prijedor was taken over, from that night on,

2 the checkpoints were no longer joint checkpoints. They were abandoned by

3 the Serbs, and the next day, there were new checkpoints, 50 or a hundred

4 metres away, which were manned by the Serb residents.

5 Q. Can you share with us, sir, the basis for your knowledge that the

6 checkpoints after April 30th were abandoned by the Serbs?

7 A. After the 30th of April, a checkpoint appeared in Donja

8 Jakupovici, which was manned solely by Muslims, and Serbs were further

9 away. At one point, I noticed that there were two checkpoints. And on

10 the day before, there was only one checkpoint.

11 Q. I may be a little confused, and I apologise for that. All I'm

12 asking to know is how you gained the knowledge or information, whether it

13 was direct or from an indirect source, that the Serbs, immediately

14 subsequent to April 30th, 1992, abandoned the checkpoints that we have

15 previously identified as being the joint checkpoints.

16 A. I know about the checkpoint in Jakupovici on the Prijedor/Banja

17 Luka main road. That morning, I went to Banja Luka very early. I left

18 Kozarac at the time when Kozarac was ostensibly liberated. And while we

19 were having coffee in a company, a woman walked in. She had a lot of cups

20 full of coffee, and she said: "it's my treat. Prijedor has been

21 liberated." When I heard that, I wasn't able to understand what it was

22 all about, and I tried to call my home on the phone. It was impossible

23 because the connections were -- the lines were already down. That day, we

24 were supposed to go to work, but we didn't. We went back home. We passed

25 the Tunjica checkpoint, the checkpoint manned by Serbs near Omarska, and

1 then we went on for another few kilometres. And then we saw the Muslim

2 checkpoint in Jakupovici. We were not stopped either in Omarska or in

3 Jakupovici, at any of these checkpoints. But one could immediately see

4 what was going on. Overnight, there was this extra checkpoint set up.

5 Q. Sir, when you reference Jakupovici, are you referencing the road

6 as identified as D on the map, D. Jakupovici?

7 A. The letter "D" refers to lower, Donja Jakupovici, which is near

8 Kevljani and near the railroad. The letter G refers to upper Jakupovici,

9 Gornji Jakupovici, and in my view, this should be the middle part of

10 Jakupovici. But now we're talking about D. Jakupovici.

11 Q. Subsequent to April 30th, 1992, when were the checkpoints

12 established which were exclusively Muslim in the area of Kozarac?

13 A. A few days, or perhaps some of them were set up that very day.

14 The checkpoints simply remained, so to speak, pure because Serbs had left

15 the checkpoints. The checkpoints remained where they were, but there was

16 only one ethnicity manning the checkpoints.

17 Q. Did you ever, sir, hear from any Serbs that they were kicked out

18 of the checkpoints in the Kozara area after April 30th, 1992?

19 A. That night, according to what the people manning the checkpoints

20 said, they all had to go home. They were sick. They said they would come

21 back tomorrow, and they never showed up again.

22 Q. Help me with this, if you may, and you've started to: After April

23 30th, 1992, can you give us the number of checkpoints that were manned in

24 the Kozara area exclusively by Muslims?

25 A. I couldn't tell you the exact number.

1 Q. Do you know, sir, if it was more or less than five?

2 A. More than five.

3 Q. Can you give me, if the Court permits, an approximation of the

4 number of checkpoints that you believe, as you're sitting here today,

5 there were in the Kozarac area that were exclusively maintained by the

6 Muslims, on or after April 30th, 1992?

7 A. The number of checkpoints did not increase after the 30th of

8 April. I think that the Territorial Defence of the Prijedor area has the

9 information about the number of checkpoints. I don't know the exact

10 number, but there were more than five. Whether there were 10, 12, 15, I

11 don't know.

12 Q. Help me with respect to Exhibit S51. You've already identified

13 that at the Donja Jakupovici, there was a checkpoint there after April

14 30th that was manned exclusively by Muslims. Can you tell us where on the

15 main road, if any other checkpoints were established by the Muslims after

16 or manned by the Muslims after April 30th, 1992?

17 A. If you see the blue line here, that's the road linking Gornji

18 Jakupovici through middle Jakupovici, all the way to the railroad. I think

19 that the checkpoint was located about 100 metres away from this area, in

20 the direction of Banja Luka, so it was not on the road itself. It was not

21 a checkpoint, in effect. People were in a field, in a valley so to speak,

22 and they would watch the cars go by on the asphalt road.

23 Q. Witness P, if you'd be kind enough to just -- and I think I know

24 the road you're referring to -- point on the ELMO, which is to your right,

25 so that we can identify which area you were pointing to as opposed to the

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1 screen in front of you.

2 A. If this is the Kozarac area, then the checkpoint was next to this

3 road here about a hundred metres away from this intersection in the

4 direction of Banja Luka to the north of the road.

5 Q. Could you help us identify any other checkpoints within that road

6 and in the area of Kozarac after April 30th, 1992, that existed which were

7 exclusively manned by the Muslims.

8 A. I know about another one which was manned only by Muslims in

9 Koncari. The next village was a Serb village, Orlovci. These are the

10 only two checkpoints that I saw as I passed through in my car from Banja

11 Luka towards Bosanski Novi.

12 Q. Do you remember, sir, whether or not there was a checkpoint manned

13 exclusively by Muslims in the area depicted on the screen, on this map,

14 S51, as Gutici?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Just so I understand your testimony, sir, because my question may

17 have been awkward, is it your testimony that there was never a checkpoint

18 that was manned exclusively by Muslims after April 30th, 1992, at the area

19 identified as Gutici? Is that correct?

20 A. I claim that there was no checkpoint there manned by Muslims.

21 Q. Thank you. Do you know, sir, if there was a checkpoint at all,,

22 manned exclusively by Muslims after April 30th, 1992, in the area that is

23 west according to this map of Kozarac which is called Kozarusa?

24 A. Not on the main road.

25 Q. Was there one near or about that area?

1 A. There was a point in the village of Susici. I can't find the road

2 here on this map. And I can't find the village itself. It would be

3 approximately somewhere here.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may, Your Honour, just ask the witness to

5 identify it on the ELMO and not on the screen so I can see where he's

6 pointing to.

7 A. I think that the checkpoint was somewhere here, midway between

8 Kozarusa -- on the old road.

9 Q. Can you identify us any other checkpoints that you recall, other

10 than those that you've already testified to, which were manned exclusively

11 by Muslims after April 30th, 1992?

12 A. If there were any, I never saw them, and I could not identify

13 their location. For instance, for Trnopolje, for the checkpoint on the

14 way leading to Mrakovica or in Gornji Jakupovici, I never saw these

15 checkpoints and I could not identify the exact location.

16 Q. Then, sir, help me with this: How do you know that there were at

17 least five such checkpoints on or after April 30th, 1992?

18 A. If I saw three of them, and if I knew that there were some other

19 access routes to Kozarac from Mrakovica, Trnopolje, Gornji Jakupovici,

20 well, there must have been more than five. There were more than five. Or

21 there were five of them.

22 Q. You mentioned Gornji Jakupovici. There was a checkpoint there

23 manned exclusively by Muslims after April 30th, 1992. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And how about the area of Babici? Was there a Muslim checkpoint

1 in the area near or by Babici which was manned exclusively --

2 A. I'm not sure what the situation was like in that place.

3 Q. And we've already discussed Donja or D. Jakupovici. How about

4 Kamicani? Was there a checkpoint exclusively manned by Muslims after

5 April 30th, 1992 in that area?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. How about Fotici [sic]? Was there a checkpoint manned by Muslims

8 after April 30th, 1992?

9 A. I never saw it. And the name is Forici.

10 Q. I apologize. Forici. I saw it with a'T'. Thank you. Do you

11 know if to the north of Kozarac whether or not there were any checkpoints

12 established after April 30, 1992, that were manned solely and exclusively

13 by Muslims?

14 A. I think there was one. I think. I never went in the direction of

15 Mrakovica in that period, so that's my assumption.

16 Q. How about to the east of Kozarac, the town in the centre of this

17 exhibit S51, do you know if there was a checkpoint on any of the roads

18 that led from the east to Kozarac, other than the ones that you've shared

19 with us already?

20 A. Could you perhaps mention a few places? Place names.

21 Q. If you look on the map, one is like Brdjanin [sic], Tadici,

22 Rajkovici? Any of those?

23 A. No, I'm not sure. I never say them.

24 Q. Were you ever at any of the checkpoints that were on or around the

25 area of Kozarac after April 30th, 1992?

1 A. On one occasion, I was stopped at a checkpoint located near

2 Kozarac. And I stayed there for a few minutes, and then I continued on.

3 Q. Did you ever, sir, assist in the manning of any of the checkpoints

4 on or around the area of Kozarac after April 30th, 1992?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did your father?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did any of your two brothers?

9 A. No. They didn't. One of my brothers was serving in the Yugoslav

10 People's Army at the time, and my other brother was in the first few days

11 when Kozarac was blocked, in Otika, so he came to Kozarac immediately

12 before the shelling of Kozarac started.

13 Q. Having passed through some of the checkpoints, as you just

14 described, can you tell us who, and describe the people which manned these

15 checkpoints after April 30th, 1992.

16 A. The checkpoints were manned by the same people who were manning

17 the checkpoints before. Those were the members of the old Territorial

18 Defence and the local population that lived in the vicinity of the

19 checkpoint. And they had nothing else to do. People would gather there.

20 They would stand around talking to each other, discussing what would

21 happen so that there would always be a group of people standing there at

22 the point.

23 Q. Did the local people that attended or assisted in the manning of

24 the checkpoints subsequent to April 30th, 1992, did they have any

25 uniforms? Did they wear any uniforms? I apologise.

1 A. In general, there were no uniforms. The number of weapons that I

2 already spoke about, there would always be a certain number of weapons at

3 the checkpoint. And people with a few rifles would simply stand guard on

4 the checkpoint. That was it, in principal.

5 Q. Unfortunately, I have a few more questions on the checkpoint, and

6 weapons is an area that I hope to cover immediately thereafter. But with

7 respect to who manned the checkpoints, you also stated, I believe, that

8 the same people as before, and then you added as well as the local

9 population. So now with my second question on that, when you say same

10 people as before, isn't it true that the people who manned the checkpoints

11 that you've identified were actually the same people who were manning the

12 checkpoints prior to April 30th, 1992, when the checkpoints were, as I

13 believe you've identified, joint?

14 A. There is a slight difference. Someone from the Territorial

15 Defence of, let's say, Kozarac would perhaps be at the checkpoint in

16 Jakupovici, one or two such persons. And perhaps ten persons from

17 Jakupovici would be with him. That's why I'm saying the Territorial

18 Defence and the local population, for instance, in this case from

19 Jakupovici.

20 Q. Thank you. Did the people from the Territorial Defence, did they

21 wear any uniforms?

22 A. They had the old military uniforms.

23 Q. Were those the same type of uniforms that you saw on the

24 individuals manning the checkpoints prior to April 30th, 1992, or were

25 they in any way different?

1 A. The uniforms remained the same that these people wore, but the

2 people who referred to themselves as the "green berets", some of them had

3 camouflage uniforms that they obtained themselves from somewhere.

4 Q. We'll hopefully discuss the green berets a little later. Is it

5 fair to say, if I'm understanding your testimony correctly, that some of

6 the people who were in the checkpoint after -- strike that. Witness P, is

7 it fair to say that some of the personnel that were manning the

8 checkpoints prior to April 30th, 1992, and were also manning the

9 checkpoints after April 1992, that the uniforms stayed the same? Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So when the checkpoints prior to April 30th, 1992, were manned by

12 the mixed group or both Serbs and Muslims, they wore the identical

13 uniform? A Muslim would have the same uniform as would a Serb; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is it -- that uniform is what I'd like a description on. Is

16 that the old military uniform you're referring to, or is that actually a

17 uniform which had a blue shirt or blue camouflage on it, if you could help

18 us with that?

19 A. Well, most of the people were wearing old military uniforms of the

20 SMB olive-drab colour. But sometimes there were some reserve policemen

21 wearing old police uniforms of blue. They may have been present or not.

22 But the blue and the SMB colours were predominant.

23 Q. Was that, sir, true of the personnel which were watching the

24 checkpoints both before April 30th and after April 30th, 1992?

25 A. After April 30th, there were more people without uniforms at the

1 checkpoints, and some people with camouflage uniforms calling themselves

2 green berets.

3 Q. Let me broaden my question. Do you know, sir, whether or not

4 there were any other Muslim -- exclusively Muslim checkpoints set up after

5 April 30th, 1992, in the municipality of Prijedor?

6 A. I don't know about that.

7 Q. Do you know, sir, whether or not there was a checkpoint in an area

8 near Hambarine?

9 A. Well, at some checkpoint, an incident took place in Hambarine.

10 Whether it was a joint checkpoint, whether it was a Muslim-manned

11 checkpoint, I cannot tell you.

12 Q. Now, if I can ask you whether or not you know how long these

13 checkpoints that we were discussing in the Kozarac area, how long they

14 existed after they were set up in early May 1992.

15 A. Until -- May 24th until the attack on Kozarac.

16 Q. Do you know, sir, whether or not -- strike that. Do you know when

17 the checkpoints which were set up after April 30th, 1992, manned

18 exclusively by Muslims in the Kozarac area, do you know when they started

19 to stop vehicles on each of these checkpoints going to Prijedor or going

20 to Banja Luka?

21 A. I was never informed of this, and I knew nothing about it.

22 Q. Let me ask you this, if I may, did you, sir, travel from the area

23 of Kozarac to Banja Luka from May 1st, let's say, up until May 24th, 1992?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Did you, sir, have to pass through any checkpoints from Kozarac

1 through the main road going to Banja Luka from the period of May 1st

2 through May 24th, 1992?

3 A. Yes. I had to pass the Jakupovici checkpoint. Well, I was never

4 stopped there at that checkpoint. And I didn't see that anyone else was

5 being stopped. The checkpoint in Omarska, sometimes I would pass it

6 without being stopped. Sometimes I was stopped. The Tunjica checkpoint,

7 I never passed without being stopped.

8 Q. Just so I understand, when you were going through Kozarac, through

9 Banja Luka, you were never stopped on any of the checkpoints, and you

10 never saw anyone stopped in the Donja Jakupovici checkpoint. Correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Now, if I may, can you tell me, if you know, who communicated the

13 ultimatum to the people of the Kozarac area? Was there any individual

14 like the leader of the TO or a politician, if you will, who would have

15 received the ultimatum that you discussed yesterday during your direct

16 that came from the military for safe passage through the main road from

17 Banja Luka to Prijedor? Can you tell us who received that ultimatum?

18 A. I don't know who was -- who was -- who received this and who

19 ordered that. I think it was ordered via the radio, that all the

20 checkpoints should be removed a few hundreds of metres from the main road,

21 that a convoy would pass, but there was not a convoy in question. It was

22 the attack on Kozarac from two directions, from Prijedor and from Banja

23 Luka.

24 Q. Now, if we may turn to another topic, that's the weapons that we

25 started talking briefly about moments ago, is it fair to state, sir, that

1 the Muslims received the weapons from the Territorial Defence?

2 A. A part of the weapons were obtained through the Territorial

3 Defence. The old Yugoslav Territorial Defence.

4 Q. Was there any one individual after April 30th, 1992, which was in

5 charge of the Territorial Defence of Kozarac?

6 A. I don't know who was in charge of what Territorial Defence. What

7 I do know is that, for the population census, was Captain Sead, a

8 reservist of the former army, he required lists of people. That is about

9 as far as my knowledge of the command is of the TO of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina.

11 Q. You testified with respect to the number of automatic guns, I

12 believe, and you described them in some detail yesterday, that the

13 individuals received from the TO, and I believe you said that 400

14 automatic guns were provided. Is that correct, by the Territorial

15 Defence --

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, could you please quote. I remember it

17 was said 400 rifles probably.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair. May I proceed, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you can quote.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll just move to another area. That might help us

21 on that.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay.

23 MR. OSTOJIC:

24 Q. Witness P, if you can help us recollect, can you tell us how many,

25 if any, weapons were issued to the residents of Kozarac by the Territorial

1 Defence on or after April 30th, 1992?

2 A. Well, I don't have that information. I don't know what was

3 received from the Territorial Defence.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to assist counsel, I think on page 23 of

5 yesterday's transcript, there were two references to number 400, on line 6

6 and line 11.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Page?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: 23.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

10 Q. On page 23, sir, yesterday, when you were being questioned with

11 respect to the issues of weapons, the question actually starts on the

12 previous page, page 22, where you discuss who were members of the Kozarac

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina army. You started to explain that, and you

14 identify, if I may just read the last sentence there, I think, Your

15 Honour. "So there were groups, and there were 400 rifles all in all at

16 the disposal of the people." And then the question following that: "You

17 mentioned a remark by a policeman about "we can defend ourselves for five

18 minutes." Can you explain a little more about that remark and what value

19 you give to it, whether you agree with it or not?", question. Answer, I

20 believe by you, on line 12, commences by saying: "Well, for someone, 400

21 rifles was a lot because he was better informed from firing from machine

22 guns on the number of guns, and the number of bultsz" -- I think

23 b-u-l-t-s-z. I know, I have to read it exactly -- "we could make

24 calculation as to the speed, as to how many bullets could be fired from

25 those guns, and we laughed when we heard that. He confronted us with the

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1 facts." Do you remember giving that testimony about 400 rifles?

2 A. I remember that I had mentioned 400 rifles.

3 Q. Now, sir, can you help me understand whether or not any other

4 weapons were given to the population of Kozarac, namely the Muslim

5 population, respectfully, at that time, by the Territorial Defence?

6 A. I don't know about such information.

7 Q. How about, do you know, whether or not there were a couple of

8 shoulder-launched rocket weapons that were also given by the Territorial

9 Defence to the population, the Muslim population in Kozarac, after April

10 30th, 1992?

11 A. I never saw any shoulder-launched rocket weapons.

12 Q. How about, sir, of the approximate 400 automatic guns that may

13 have been given, or do you know anything about them being given to the

14 Kozarac Muslim population by the Territorial Defence?

15 A. Well, a number of rifles had been bought from the Serb reservists

16 coming back from Croatia, from the battlefield there, and sold rifles to

17 the local population. What the ratio between the received and purchased

18 rifles are, I do not know. I cannot tell you. The only thing I do know,

19 and that I heard about, that there were about 400 rifles. How many

20 automatic, how many semi-automatic, I did not know. And as far as

21 ammunition is concerned, well, some amount was mentioned, but the

22 policemen said: "Well, we can defend ourselves for five minutes, and then

23 we're finished."

24 Q. If I may, for the record, just -- and I'm going to quote from your

25 August 26 through 30th, 1994, statement signed September 1st, 1994

1 specifically page 14, middle of the paragraph of the English text which

2 would be the second formal full paragraph, if I may read that to the

3 witness.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour?

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

6 MR. OSTOJIC:

7 Q. Sir, I'm going to read from a statement that you gave in 1994, and

8 I have copies for whomever needs it. And I will read it in English and

9 they will translate it. Starts in the middle of the page of page 14 as

10 follows: "A lot of the weapons have been spread out by the Territorial

11 Defence army, and a number of the weapons had been bought illegally from

12 the Serbs. A lot of the people had simply taken the weapons with them to

13 the woods where they were hiding. Some of these weapons had been taken to

14 Croatia. According to the statistics, the Territorial Defence army had

15 approximately 400 automatic guns and a couple of shoulder-launched rocket

16 weapons. A person from the army had to register the amount of guns

17 everybody possessed. He was a neighbour of mine and commander of one of

18 the groups, Sead Cirkic. I mentioned him earlier. He had found out there

19 were approximately 400 weapons in the TDF."

20 What I'd like to do, if the usher can just simply have the witness

21 identify whether or not his signature appears on this statement at the

22 bottom of page 14, Your Honour. And just to the record is clear, I'm

23 tendering both the Serbian -- B/C/S, I'm sorry, B/C/S version as well as

24 the English version, but the B/C/S version is not signed, so we're asking

25 him to identify page 14 of the English version. Thank you, Your Honour.

1 A. This is my signature.

2 Q. Just so we have a clear record, Witness P, you have been handed a

3 document which has the number on the bottom right-hand side 00174138, page

4 14 in the centre on the bottom, and on the left-hand side, there's a

5 signature there. Is that your signature, sir?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, in light of the time, would this be an

8 appropriate time to break.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, thank you. The trial stands adjourned

10 until 5.40.

11 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. And may we proceed

14 immediately with the cross-examination.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Witness P, although we at the break started to discuss

17 weapons, I have two minor -- or two questions still on the checkpoints.

18 Forgive me for that. My first question in connection with this is, do you

19 know what the purpose of the five or so checkpoints that were in place

20 after April 30th, 1992, that were manned exclusively by Muslims, what was

21 the purpose of those checkpoints?

22 A. Well, I never asked myself what the purpose of the checkpoints

23 that existed before the 30th of April was, so I never gave it any deeper

24 thought. The atmosphere of war was prevalent, war was looming, and we

25 were afraid of an attack by Serbs.

1 Q. So help me with this, just as a follow-up, is it that you don't

2 know what the purpose was, or the purpose was to establish a resistance

3 from an attack possibly from the Serbs?

4 A. I think that this was the purpose of the points.

5 Q. Just so I'm clear, to establish a resistance in the event of a

6 Serb attack to protect the town of Kozarac or the area of Kozarac.

7 Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The village of Kozarac, correct, to protect that?

10 A. And the villages around Kozarac.

11 Q. From April 30th, 1992, up until May 23rd, 1992, immediately prior

12 to the attack, as we've defined it, of Kozarac, the day before, were there

13 any attacks by Serbs on any of the Muslim checkpoints in the village of

14 Kozarac and that general territory that we were discussing on Exhibit S51?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And finally, with respect to the checkpoints, I hope I don't have

17 to come back to it, the ultimatum that was actually issued by the military

18 or the convoys, the army convoys, to pass through the main road, was the

19 ultimatum that the checkpoints on the main road move back approximately

20 100 metres from the main road, or in essence move away from the main road

21 100 metres?

22 A. I don't recall the exact distance. The statement was given eight

23 years ago. They had to move back from the main road. Now, as to how far

24 back, I don't remember that.

25 Q. So would it be fair to say that the military never requested that

1 any of the checkpoints that may have been established in areas such as

2 Gornji Jakupovici, Susici, and Kevljani, they were never asked to be

3 removed because they were not on the main road and thoroughfare from Banja

4 Luka through Kozarac to Prijedor?

5 A. Whether they were too close, I don't know. But it was said that

6 the checkpoints had to be moved further back or to a specified distance,

7 but I don't remember how exactly it went.

8 Q. Fair enough. Can you tell us if it's correct that the army never

9 requested that the checkpoints established exclusively by the Muslims, on

10 or around the Kozara area, to dismantle from the time of the ultimatum, or

11 to cease to exist?

12 A. I don't remember what happened later and what was being said about

13 other checkpoints.

14 Q. Actually, my question was with respect to the ultimatum, and I can

15 appreciate that it has been some time, approximately ten years has passed.

16 Do you remember if during the ultimatum there was any suggestion or order

17 by the military to have the Muslim checkpoints dismantle or cease to exist

18 as opposed to asking them to move X number of metres away from the main

19 road as you've testified?

20 A. I think that they were talking about the passage of the convoy.

21 And as far as I can remember, the checkpoints were to be moved away from

22 the road a few hundred metres.

23 Q. Thank you. Going back to the issue of weapons, if I may, a couple

24 more questions on that, other than the weapons that were received by the

25 general -- or the population in Kozarac, as you've testified, did also

1 some of the Muslim population in the Kozarac area purchase or receive

2 weapons from Serbs?

3 A. A certain number of the overall number of weapons was purchased

4 from Serbs, reservists, and similar persons who engaged in arms trade.

5 And this is how the weapons reached Kozarac.

6 Q. Do you know what that certain number of overall number of weapons

7 was?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Do you know anyone who would?

10 A. I don't know that either.

11 Q. Do you know if the Muslims received or purchased any weapons from

12 Croatians during the time period of 1992?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. You mentioned that the weapons were being sold by Serb reservists

15 and similar persons who engaged in arms trade. Serb reservists, sir, can

16 you help me, was it the military reservists or the police reservists or

17 what type of reservists were these Serb reservists that were selling

18 weapons to the Muslims in the Kozara area?

19 A. These were military reservists or active-duty servicemen. I never

20 bought any weapons from anyone, but at any rate, weapons were purchased

21 from the troops of the then Yugoslav People's Army.

22 Q. Can you identify this other group of persons who engaged in arms

23 trade? Who were those people? Were they one and the same, as you've

24 previously identified?

25 A. Well, these were Serbs from the villages in the vicinity. They

1 were not in uniforms, so I couldn't say what formation they belonged to,

2 if any. They also brought in weapons in their cars and would offer them

3 up for sale. That's what I meant when I spoke about those other persons.

4 Q. And these weapons that were sold by the Serb reservists were sold

5 exclusively to the Muslim residents of Kozarac. Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If I may switch now to a different area, did the Serbs at any

8 time -- strike that. Let's talk about the paramilitary. You mentioned a

9 number of times the "green beret". Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us, Witness P, sir, when the green beret was first

12 established?

13 A. I don't remember the exact date. In the period between the fall

14 of Prijedor, or the liberation of Prijedor, as those who did it, styled

15 it, I would sometimes see a person wearing a uniform with a green beret.

16 They would pass through Kozarac in a car or things like that.

17 Q. You mentioned on page 21 of yesterday's transcript, approximately

18 line 16 through 22, when asked by the OTP what defence or armed forces

19 were organised in Kozarac --

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Just wanted to verify the page, Your Honour, from my

21 notes.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's correct. Quote the entire paragraph.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: I will. Beginning with the question, Your Honour,

24 if I may?

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

1 MR. OSTOJIC: Line 13, page 21, question: "Can you explain to the

2 Judges what defence or armed forces were organised in Kozarac before the

3 takeover on the 30th of April and after the takeover on the 30th of

4 April?" Answer: "There were people who call themselves green berets,

5 self-styled green berets. There was also a group of Kole's men. They

6 were criminal. There was also a group of Ramiz's men. There was also a

7 man who was expelled from Germany because of drug-related offences. Then

8 there's a note, and it proceeds to say: "They walked around Kozarac

9 armed, wearing green berets. This did not have any kind of political

10 support of the official BH governments or authorities. People simply did

11 it on their own initiative."

12 May I proceed.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just ask for clarification. You mentioned

14 the name Kole. It's indeed in the transcript. Could the witness please

15 answer the question whether it is stated correctly, the name Kole, or is

16 it another name? Thank you.

17 A. The name is Kole. That's a nickname, Kole. And I wouldn't go

18 into the real name of that person.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We can go for a moment in private session,

20 because I believe -- I don't know. You mentioned the name before in

21 another statement.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed, Your Honour. Thank you.

7 Q. Sir, my question to you is, the green berets, were they

8 established after April 30th, 1992, or before April 30th, 1992, if you

9 know?

10 A. I don't know exactly.

11 Q. Do you know, sir, or is it fair to say that they, in fact, did

12 exist after April 1992 -- strike that. Witness P, is it correct that the

13 green berets existed and functioned as a paramilitary group some time

14 after April 30th, 1992, and before May 24th, 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know, sir, how many people or the number of people which

17 were members or participants of these green berets?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Do you know, sir, if the green berets were limited exclusively to

20 the Kozarac area, or whether or not there were other paramilitary groups

21 known as green berets throughout the Prijedor municipality from April

22 through May of 1992?

23 A. I can't answer that question because I don't know.

24 Q. Is it fair to say that the green beret is different from the

25 entity that I've identified as the Territorial Defence army? Would that

1 be correct? They are a separate and distinct entity. Correct?

2 A. I don't know whether the green berets joined or were included on

3 the list of the population when the Territorial Defence made their list.

4 So my answer to your question is I don't know.

5 Q. Thank you. Do you know, sir, how many people -- and I apologise

6 if I've asked you this. I seem to have some recollection. How many

7 people were members or participants in the Territorial Defence army?

8 A. I don't know the exact number.

9 Q. Can you help us by giving us an approximation, if you know?

10 A. I'm not sure, so I would rather not mention any figures.

11 Q. (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 A. No, that's not correct.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That should be redacted, please. The name, the

16 witness asked for the protection of the name. Therefore, it has to be

17 redacted.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Forgive me, Your Honour, that's fine. If I can just

19 ask the question of the Court on this issue. Since we didn't learn the

20 name, I was just asking the witness who the name of the leader was. And

21 the witness answered in the negative. But that's fine, I don't have a

22 problem with the redaction.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Therefore, please be the lines, page 70, line 7

24 to 9, may the names be redacted there, please. Thank you. Please

25 continue.

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1 MR. OSTOJIC: My apologies, Your Honour.

2 Q. Sir, do you know how many people were members or affiliated with

3 the Kolina's group that we previously discussed?

4 A. I don't know the exact number.

5 Q. Do you know an approximation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Is it true, sir, that the Kolina's group also existed from the

8 period some time after April 30th but before May 24th, 1992?

9 A. Could you please repeat your question.

10 Q. I will. I apologise. Did this group, Kolina's group, exist as an

11 entity with members in it in the Kozarac area any time during the period

12 of April 30th through May 24th, 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Similarly, sir, with respect to Ramiz's group, did this group

15 exist, with membership in the Kozarac area, from April 30th through May

16 24th, 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know what the membership or number of members or affiliates

19 the Ramiz's group had during that period of time, April through May, 1992?

20 A. I don't know that number either.

21 Q. Do you know an approximation?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, you also mentioned, as we've previously read in the

24 transcript, page 21, line 16, that there was yet another group of a -- I

25 think you said: "Someone who was expelled from Germany because of

1 drug-related offences." Do you recall that testimony? Line 15, page 21.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 19.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember mentioning that. I don't

4 remember whether he was a member of these two groups or whether he was

5 operating independently. I can mention his nickname, although it doesn't

6 matter any more because he's not alive anymore. So I don't know if that's

7 of any importance for you.

8 MR. OSTOJIC:

9 Q. It may be. I'd just like to correct my earlier question. It's

10 line 19 in the earlier transcript.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: But I would ask the Court if I'm allowed to ask him

12 the individual's name or identity the group we're referring to now. If I

13 may ask the witness that. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Yes, Witness P, help us remember who was the leader, if you will,

15 or who was the entity who you were referring to yesterday, when you

16 identified him as the person who was expelled from Germany because of

17 drug-related offences?

18 A. His nickname was Didin, and I wouldn't really go any further than

19 that.

20 Q. Thank you. May I ask you, in respect to this individual, Didin,

21 whether that group, Didin's group, if I can call it that, existed from

22 April 30th to May 24th, 1992, in the Kozara area?

23 A. I saw him in a uniform in that period.

24 Q. Do you know, sir, how many people were members in the Didin group

25 during that period in the Kozarac area?

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Do you know an approximation?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Can you describe the uniform that you saw that the individual

5 Didin or any of his members were wearing when you saw him in the Kozarac

6 area during April through May of 1992?

7 A. It was a grey uniform with a camouflage pattern. It was also

8 bought from the Yugoslav troops that sold not only weapons but uniforms,

9 too.

10 Q. From time to time yesterday, sir, you identified an individual

11 whose name I will not repeat, who was a former captain of the JNA. Do you

12 remember that testimony?

13 A. I mention his existence in the territory of Kozarac.

14 Q. And you mentioned his name, I believe. Correct?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. In fact, at one point, we referenced him, or I believe the OTP

17 did, as a Mr. Cirkin, and you corrected him on the record a couple of

18 times and said it was Mr. Cirkic. Correct? Do you remember that?

19 A. I'm not sure whether his name is actually Cirkin or Cirkic.

20 Q. For our purposes, may we agree that that's the same individual,

21 we'll refer to him as the former captain in the JNA. Okay? Fair enough?

22 A. We're talking about that same person, but let's refer to him as

23 Sead for the time being.

24 Q. Okay. That's fine. Sead, Sead, was he a member of any of the

25 paramilitary or groups that we've just discussed, namely the green berets,

1 Kolina's group, the Territorial Defence army, Ramiz's group, or the Didin

2 group, if you know?

3 A. I don't know if he was a member of any of these groups.

4 Q. Do you know, sir, if Sead had his own group which operated and

5 functioned in the territory of Kozarac from April through May of 1992?

6 A. Whether he was the leader, commander of the whole Territorial

7 Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that was in the making at that time, or

8 somebody else. . . Well, that would be his function at that time, in my

9 opinion.

10 Q. Are you familiar, sir, with an entity that's been identified, or

11 commonly referred to as "the Patriotic League" from the Prijedor area?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever hear of a squad called the Gariba squad?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you ever hear of the existence of a Trnopolje platoon?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you ever hear of an individual called Suad Garibovic, who was

18 in the Gariba squad?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you ever hear of a squad called the Sivac squad?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you ever hear of an individual called Suto [sic] Sivac, who

23 was purportedly the squad commander of the Sivac squad?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever hear of a squad by the name of Trnjani,

1 T-R-N-J-A-N-I, squad?

2 A. I told you about the groups that I knew. All the groups that you

3 have just mentioned are unknown to me.

4 Q. Fair enough. Did you, sir -- one last one, not from a group.

5 I'll pass on the other ones, and thank you for answering the question.

6 Did you know if Becir Medunjanin was a member of the Kozarac Crisis Staff?

7 A. He had a function in Kozarac. Now, whether he was a political

8 function in the Crisis Staff, I don't know. I don't know his exact

9 function.

10 Q. Could you tell me if you know when the Crisis Staff in Kozarac was

11 established?

12 A. I don't know when it was exactly.

13 Q. Can you give us an approximation, if it was before or after May

14 24th, 1992?

15 A. Well, it was probably after the 30th of April, 1992.

16 Q. How did you come to learn the information that some time after

17 April 30th, 1992, there was a Kozarac Crisis Staff?

18 A. Well, there were no stories about this in Kozarac until that

19 moment. This was the date, the 30th. From then on, one began to doubt

20 that -- suspected that something might happen, that an attack was

21 imminent. There were people who were jobless until that day in Prijedor.

22 And we were cut off from Prijedor. We in Kozarac were cut off from

23 Prijedor. And I suppose that in that period of time, a staff had been

24 established or a commission or some body like that.

25 Q. So if I gave you the identity of individuals that may have been on

1 the Crisis Staff, can you help me to decide if you knew whether or not

2 they were on the Crisis Staff, or as you sit here, do you have any

3 knowledge of any of the members of the Kozarac Crisis Staff?

4 A. I cannot tell you with the exception of the name of Becir

5 Medunjanin.

6 Q. Let me ask you, if I may return to the former captain of the JNA

7 that we agreed we were going to call him Sead, I have another question

8 with respect to Sead, if I may. Sir, do you know the circumstances of how

9 this former captain of the JNA called Sead left the JNA? Do you know if

10 it was voluntary or involuntary?

11 A. I do not know.

12 Q. At any time, sir, after May 24th, 1992 through October of 1992,

13 did you see Mr. Sead, this former captain of the JNA, at any place where

14 you may have been?

15 A. Well, Captain Sead, I saw him at the Manjaca camp when we arrived

16 at the Manjaca camp.

17 Q. And sir, isn't it also true that this Captain Sead that we're

18 referring to, the former captain of the JNA, was also with you in the

19 convoy that went to Karlovac?

20 A. I don't know. I think that person had been exchanged before we

21 were allowed to go to Karlovac.

22 Q. Now, just a couple more questions with respect to these groups

23 that we've identified. Is it true, sir -- well, let me do it by just

24 reading from page 9, the last paragraph of the statement, August 24th

25 through the 30th, 1994, signed September 1st, 1994 by this witness, P. If

1 the Court permits. I don't need the entire paragraph, but I'll read it

2 just for the purposes of its context, because I think those were the rules

3 we've agreed to proceed.

4 Sir, if you can just listen, and it's a little long but I'll try

5 to read it as slow as possible, this paragraph. I have a couple questions

6 in connection with this paragraph. Again, page 9, date stamp number

7 00174133. "For a month, these groups did exist. They carried the name

8 Kolina's group and Ramiz's group. There was one in the group Kolina. His

9 name was" -- am I permitted to read the name, Judge? I can skip over it.

10 I didn't realise the name was there. There's a name listed. "He was a

11 Muslim, and a captain in the reserve. He was formerly in the Yugoslav

12 army. He tried to join these groups together, and made a list of peoples

13 who were in the groups. Once the area was taken over, these lists were

14 taken into the hands of the Serbians and then to the camps. These groups

15 had started wearing uniforms and walking around Kozarac before the war,

16 but they were not active. They never committed any actions against the

17 Serbs. They never surrendered after the war started. The [sic] hid in

18 the woods. They stayed for four and a half months. Sometimes, they would

19 come down into the villages for food and perhaps they murdered some Serbs

20 then. That is how they continued their existence until they left for

21 Croatia. Before 24 May, before Kozarac was attacked, they never did

22 anything, they never killed anyone or carried out any acts of violence.

23 Before the war, there were Serbs living in the Kozarac area and Serbs in

24 official positions. It would have been very easy for the Serbs to know

25 who these people were and where they lived. They could have arrested them

1 before the war took place if they wanted to, but there were no arrests

2 before the shelling started." End of that paragraph, which proceeds on

3 page 10, two lines on top.

4 With respect, sir, with respect to that, is it fair to say that

5 all of the groups, or you tell me which of the groups that we've

6 identified hid in the woods for four and a half months?

7 A. I can specifically mention Kole, who with about 15 to 20 people,

8 reached Croatia. Which parts of the groups, within those groups, who made

9 up these groups, I don't know. I know that he, with a few others, crossed

10 over to Croatia, to the Croatian side swimming across the Una and then the

11 Sava River. And then they were arrested, all of them, in the area of

12 Glina, or perhaps somewhere else in the area that was under Serb control.

13 And then they were taken to Karlovac or perhaps exchanged. How they got

14 to Karlovac, I do not know.

15 There was a certain number of people who, along with Kole, crossed

16 the Croatian border.

17 Q. Sir, is it true that you saw this group in Karlovac where you were

18 at subsequent to your release from Manjaca?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, I apologise.

21 Q. And is it true, sir, that you saw this group that you've just been

22 discussing, Kolina's group, in Karlovac, the same place you were at, after

23 your release from Manjaca?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. As you sit here, sir, not having known the specific number or

1 approximate numbers of people in each of these groups, green berets,

2 Kole's group, TO army, Ramiz's group, and Didin's group, do you know how

3 many people actually hid in the woods for four and a half months after May

4 24, 1992?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Do you know, sir, if any of these individuals in those groups

7 participated at all on an attack that may have happened on the town of

8 Prijedor on, or about, May 30th, 1992?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. You mentioned in the last sentences of that paragraph, again, if I

11 can just quote that last sentence, bottom of page 9 and then commencing on

12 page 10, the top of your statement of 1994, "they could have arrested them

13 before the war took place if they wanted to, but there were no arrests

14 before the shelling started."

15 Can you tell us who could have arrested whom?

16 A. Kole's group, and the other armed formations, could arrest Serbs

17 in Kozarac, but they never arrested any.

18 Q. So that statement is in reference to Kolina's group and other

19 groups did not arrest Serbs. Am I understanding you correctly? Or is it

20 that the Serbs, having been in --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I apologise, Witness P. I didn't finish my question. I just

23 don't want the transcript to be incorrect.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: I think, Your Honour, if I may ask the question for

25 clarification.

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the question is clear enough.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you repeat.

3 MR. OSTOJIC:

4 Q. Thank you, Witness P. I'll move on. Final question with respect

5 to Sead, this former captain of the JNA, do you know if he's alive

6 currently today?

7 A. No, he's alive.

8 Q. And do you know, sir, whether or not this Sead that we're

9 referencing, if he's back in the Kozarac area?

10 A. I don't know his exact address.

11 Q. Thank you. I don't want his exact address, but do you know

12 whether he lives currently in the Kozarac area or not?

13 A. Well, his address is perhaps (redacted) I don't know exactly

14 where he lives.

15 Q. Fair enough. Do you know what his current occupation or title is?

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we should go in private session, and

17 redact the words (redacted) page 70, line 4.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. No objection.

19 [Private session].

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7 [Open session]

8 MR. OSTOJIC:

9 Q. If I may, Mr. Witness P, I'd like to turn to a different area,

10 although we covered it briefly with respect to the weapons and the

11 paramilitary, and that is the incident that occurred on May or --

12 approximately on May 22nd, 1992, that you referenced as the Hambarine

13 incident. So I'd like to direct your attention to that if I may. With

14 respect to that, sir, you discussed yesterday that you learned some

15 information in connection with this incident in Hambarine. Can you tell

16 us from whom you learned that information?

17 A. I cannot remember right now. I think it must have been broadcast

18 on the radio. It was probably announced. There were announcements in

19 regard to Hambarine. I'm not sure, but I think this was done -- that the

20 incident of Hambarine was broadcast on the radio.

21 Q. Yesterday, on a question that's identified on page 19, lines 24

22 and 25, with your answer, sir, preceding on page 20, lines 1 through 6,

23 you were asked about this incident, and if I may read the question and

24 answer in its entirety, so that I may refresh your recollection, and I

25 have a couple questions on your answer.

1 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may.

2 Q. Witness P, on line 15 -- on page 19, lines 24 and 25 the question

3 is as follows: "On the -- on one day did you become aware of an attack on

4 Hambarine?" Answer, page 20, lines 1 through 6: "Well, before the attack

5 on Kozarac, allegedly there was an incident. It was on the radio that

6 the -- a Serb military vehicle was attacked, that a man was killed, and

7 that everybody had to come in and surrender. What happened in fact, there

8 was an incident. I don't know who really got killed and how many people

9 got killed. But at that time, the shelling of Hambarine began."

10 My question to you, sir, with respect to this answer is you state

11 that there was allegedly an incident in Hambarine, on or about the date

12 that we've identified, in essence, as being May 22nd, 1992. Can you tell

13 me why you think it's only an alleged incident, as opposed to an incident

14 that, in fact, occurred?

15 A. Well, if I wasn't present there, an incident remains an incident.

16 And until further information is received, it's always a question about

17 what actually happened. I don't know what is controversial in what I have

18 said. Perhaps I'm not speaking correctly. Perhaps we don't understand

19 each other well.

20 Q. No, sir, there's nothing wrong with the way you're speaking or the

21 answers that you've given, so please don't think that. Perhaps I'm just

22 not understanding it, and I'll move on on this issue. Thank you, and I

23 apologise for raising it. What I'd like to know, sir, from your statement

24 that you gave on August 24th through August 30th, 1994, and sign on

25 September 1st, 1992 [sic] -- Forgive me, Your Honour?

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I believe it was 1994 you wanted to say. Right?

2 MR. OSTOJIC: Of course, Your Honour. I apologise. Signed on

3 September 1st, 1994. My apologies. Page 6, date stamp 00174130,

4 continuing last paragraph on page 6, continuing on to page 7, date stamp

5 number 00174131, if I may be permitted to quote this paragraph, and then

6 ask the witness whether this is related to or not the Hambarine incident.

7 As follows, as stated on page 6 last paragraph 6 this document:

8 "I may, there were several checkpoints at every village, Serbian and

9 others, and cars were stopped and searched. By May 22nd, a Serbian

10 vehicle came to a Muslim checkpoint without stopping. The guards warned

11 the vehicle to stop, but it didn't, and one of the people in it was

12 killed. The checkpoint was at Hambarine. That started the incidents. On

13 the 23rd May, the Serbs threw a grenade at that checkpoint."

14 We continued to page 7 of your statement.

15 Q. Sir, who, if you know, gave you the information with respect to

16 the information that I just read from your statement signed on September

17 1st, 1994?

18 A. Whether -- well, I said that I thought it went -- it was broadcast

19 over the radio, although information spread in different ways at the time.

20 Simply, I don't remember exactly who provided that information, and I

21 think it was the information that I provided. And what happened there, I

22 think this was the crux, the very beginning and the reason why the attack

23 on Hambarine started. And I don't think we have to discuss this at

24 length.

25 Q. Fair enough. But if you'd permit me just a couple questions on

1 this, just for clarification, is it your testimony, sir, that one grenade,

2 since you used the singular "grenade" in your statement that I've just

3 read were thrown at this checkpoint at Hambarine, or do you have any

4 information with respect to any response from the alleged one person that

5 was killed at that checkpoint on or about May 22nd, 1992?

6 A. Well, let us say that the incident in Hambarine was the beginning

7 of the shelling of Hambarine. Can we leave it at that?

8 Q. I'll move on from this specific point, but still with respect to

9 Hambarine, if I may, do you know, sir who killed this one person at the

10 checkpoint at Hambarine?

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm not prepared to admit this question. The

12 witness has already several times stated that it was more or less hearsay

13 from the radio and that he has no other information on this.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough, if I may ask just a follow-up question.

15 Q. Mr. Witness P, did you hear, subsequent to the incident at

16 Hambarine on May 22nd, 1994, whether there was an investigation as to who

17 started or commenced anything that may have occurred at the so-called

18 incident at the Hambarine checkpoint? Do you know if there was an

19 investigation? I'm sorry, in the record, Mr. Witness P, it says 1994.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: I apologise, Your Honour. If I can restate the

21 question with your permission. I think it's recorded correctly, I must

22 have misspoke on that. I think I can shorten the question as well. Thank

23 you.

24 Q. Sir, do you know of any investigation relating to the Hambarine

25 incident after May 22nd, 1992?

1 A. I don't know about that.

2 Q. If I may, sir, switch, two days later, we're talking now about the

3 ultimatum for you that was given by the military for an army convoy to

4 pass through Kozarac, do you know whether or not that army convoy was

5 going to Prijedor or to Hambarine, two days after the incident on

6 Hambarine, namely May 22nd, 1992?

7 A. That convoy never should have passed through Prijedor. Those were

8 two armed columns that attacked Hambarine. One from Prijedor, and the

9 other from Banja Luka. The existence of this column was a pretext for

10 ordering the removal of the checkpoints from the main road.

11 Q. Help me, if you may, why do you believe that that convoy "never

12 should have passed through Prijedor"?

13 A. Well, its passage was never noticed.

14 Q. With respect to this army convoy and the ultimatum that occurred

15 on May 24th, 1992, do you know, sir, or have any information whether or

16 not any of the military personnel who were on the convoy, specifically the

17 very first truck that was leading the convoy, whether or not any Serb

18 military men were killed on or about May 24th, 1992 while passing through

19 the checkpoints in Donja Jakupovici, or anywhere through the Kozarac

20 territory?

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would object to the question, because the witness

22 has indicated the convoy didn't pass through the checkpoints. He

23 indicated these convoys attacked Kozarac. So the implication that the

24 convoys simply passed through the checkpoints in the question is not in

25 evidence.

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sustained.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may try to restate the question, Your Honour,

3 to avoid the technical objection offered by my learned friend from the

4 Office of the Prosecutor. I'll try my best.

5 Q. Did the convoy, sir, get through and pass the area known as Donja

6 Jakupovici?

7 A. Well, the convoy, when approaching Jakupovici, began firing at the

8 people who had been a few hundreds of metres away, a few -- where the

9 checkpoint had been removed a few hundred metres away from the road.

10 Later on, during our stay in the Omarska camp, it was stated that someone

11 from that checkpoint hit someone from the army who was in the first

12 vehicle of that column, that first started firing against the people and

13 the neighbouring houses. That is as much as I know.

14 Q. Thank you. My question to you, sir, on this main road that we've

15 identified on Exhibit S51, and I understand you don't have it in front of

16 you, the main road, the Prijedor/Banja Luka main road, did this convoy

17 continue to proceed towards, not through and to Prijedor, towards Kozarac

18 and actually get to the area known as Kozarusa, if you know?

19 A. I think that convoy continued to act in a military fashion

20 slightly in the direction of Kozarac, and from the Prijedor side near the

21 Kozarusa area, they went very slightly. They were firing. The tanks were

22 also in the convoys, that also fired. It was not one convoy, two convoys

23 from two sides, an organised attack against Kozarac. This is how I see

24 how it happened.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. OSTOJIC: If the Court would please ask the usher to have S51

2 brought back to the ELMO. I'm sorry, Your Honour.

3 May I proceed, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

5 MR. OSTOJIC:

6 Q. Witness P, now having S51 in front of you, a question I hope is

7 simple and straightforward. I'm not asking anything more than this: Did

8 the convoy that was coming from Banja Luka, through the main road of

9 Prijedor/Banja Luka main road, which stopped you said approximately and,

10 correct me if I am wrong, at the D. Jakupovici area, that general area,

11 did that convoy coming in that direction, did it ultimately turn back or

12 continue forward on the road of Prijedor/Banja Luka main road towards

13 Prijedor?

14 A. I think that it continued. It continued along the road to

15 Kozarac.

16 Q. So in fact, it continued all the way up to what's in the centre of

17 Exhibit S51 identified with a blue dot with the name on it "Kozarac."

18 Correct?

19 A. Well, how -- I wouldn't know how long this movement lasted and

20 what the duration was. But the official fall of Kozarac was on the 26th,

21 and the column either went left or right from the main road. Everything

22 was occupied. Everything was blocked. It was a convoy that intended to

23 take over Kozarac and not to pass through Kozarac, and this is how -- and

24 this is what happened.

25 Q. Do you know how it came about that there was a surrender of the

1 town of Kozarac on or about May 26th, 1992 -- village, I'm sorry. The

2 village of Kozarac.

3 A. The whole region of Kozarac was under siege, encircled from the

4 takeover of power in Prijedor. So this was a small ghetto from which one

5 could reach Prijedor, despite the various checkpoints, and the

6 encirclement of Kozarac started when the -- with the seizure of power in

7 Prijedor.

8 Q. So it's your testimony, if I understand you correctly, that the

9 seizure of Kozarac started approximately three weeks prior to the attack,

10 on or about April 30th, 1992. Correct?

11 A. Yes. The blocking of the access routes to Prijedor, preventing

12 the Muslim people going to work to Prijedor, automatically meant that

13 Kozarac was under siege.

14 Q. Other than that one individual who was in the front of the convoy

15 that was killed coming through the main road of Prijedor/Banja Luka, do

16 you know of any other instances where a Serb military person was shot or

17 killed, who was in that convoy coming from Banja Luka through the

18 Prijedor/Banja Luka main road, on or about May 24th, 1992?

19 A. I heard, later in the camp, people say that around Forici, there

20 was some shooting, that fire was opened on military vehicles. As to the

21 accuracy of these stories, I really don't know.

22 Q. And I appreciate that, sir. But in this Forici area, did you

23 learn from any person while you were detained whether or not any other

24 individuals were shot or killed who were on this convoy coming from Banja

25 Luka on the Prijedor/Banja Luka main road on May 24th, 1992?

1 A. I don't know if I spoke about that. I'm not sure any more.

2 Q. So is it fair to say that, as you sit here today, you don't know

3 other than this one individual who was at the front of the convoy as

4 being, according to what you learned, the only individual that was shot

5 and killed in this convoy. Correct?

6 A. I don't remember what I stated in 1994. It has been eight years.

7 Whether several people were killed or just this one person, I'm not sure.

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Witness P, all I want to know is what you remember

9 today. And if you don't remember any more, that's fine. Thank you.

10 I asked you earlier, and respectfully, I don't know if I

11 understood the answer. My mistake, on the question. My question earlier

12 was, was there an agreement, or if you could describe for us: How was it

13 the surrender of Kozarac came about on or about May 26th, 1992? A couple

14 questions ago, sir, I apologise if you answered it. I did not understand

15 the answer if you could help me with that. Was it a negotiated

16 settlement, or did everyone just throw up their arms, or if you could just

17 describe for me how it came about?

18 A. I'm not sure whether this is 100 per cent correct, but I am

19 convinced that the information was relayed through the Kozarac Police

20 Station, and they probably obtained it through the police radio network,

21 and they were in contact -- they were able to establish contact with

22 Prijedor. And that was the way that the information came in that the

23 surrender would take place and that the police weapons would be taken to

24 Prijedor and that people would also head to Prijedor. I'm not sure, but

25 at one point, there was so much information coming in, and people were

1 moving about so much that one could not tell what was true, what was not

2 true. But I think that this came in through the police.

3 Q. And in fact, as a result of that information that you received

4 from the police, the people, including yourself and your wife, among

5 others, you proceeded to go where the authorities in Kozarac told you to

6 go, and then joined this second, if I can call it that, convoy heading to

7 Prijedor. Correct? On or about May 26th, 1992?

8 A. From the time when first information was received from the police,

9 I partly believed it, partly I didn't believe it. When I got home, I

10 spent some time there, at home. I don't know exactly how much time, but

11 at that time, the military jeep had already come to the yard, and they

12 gave us the same information, that we all had to head towards Prijedor

13 with all the people that were in my house at that time. We didn't ask

14 them what direction we should take, what route to take. We simply took

15 off. And that's how we reached the Kozarac intersection, where we

16 encountered the tank and a lot of troops and the police officers and

17 things became quite clear to us then.

18 Q. Back to the military jeep, were there more than one person

19 in that jeep who was giving you these instructions?

20 A. I think that there was one of the people that they had found in

21 the same way that they found us, and they -- he had to take them to a

22 house where they supposed the civilians were, in houses or in garages.

23 Q. What was the ethnicity of this individual in the military jeep?

24 A. The civilian was a person from Kozarac. He was a Muslim.

25 Q. At any time during the gathering of the individuals and the people

1 from the Kozara area which were going to proceed, as indicated, to

2 Prijedor, at any time did you confront or see any Serb military personnel

3 on May 26th, 1992?

4 A. Apart from the jeep and the persons there, until the -- until we

5 came to the intersection in Kozarac, I didn't see any armed people. When

6 we reached the Kozarac intersection, I saw armed people there.

7 Q. Just for clarification, when you say "armed people," are you

8 referring to armed Serbs and Muslims, or armed Serbs, or just tell me what

9 you're referring to so the record is clear?

10 A. Armed Serbs.

11 Q. In this convoy that proceeded through Kozarac that you were a part

12 of that took the route a little south and then it came up north, as you

13 described for us yesterday, from Kozarac, did this convoy contain any of

14 the Bosnian Muslim men who were participants or affiliated with any of the

15 four or five paramilitary groups we've previously identified; namely, the

16 green beret, Kolina's group, Ramiz's group, Didin's group, and the

17 patriotic league, and the Territorial Defence army?

18 A. Everybody was a member of the territorial army of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina, at least on paper. So one could even say that I was a member

20 of the army.

21 Q. That's fair, sir. I apologise. I wanted to actually exclude

22 that, and I didn't. Other than the Territorial Defence army, those other

23 five groups that we've identified, the green beret, Kolina's, Ramiz's

24 group, patriotic league, and Didin's group, were any members of those

25 groups part of the convoy that proceeded from Kozarac with you and your

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1 family and your wife towards Prijedor?

2 A. As far as I know, no.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I note the time. I have actually two

4 other areas to cover and I would be willing to share with the Court. One

5 is the witness's detention in Trnopolje, and also Omarska, and just

6 briefly, a little on Manjaca, but I don't know. I can ask a couple more

7 questions if the Court wants me to. They are just new areas. Whatever

8 the Court's pleasure is.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I believe there are numerous questions open and,

10 therefore, we should have a break. But we shouldn't call it a day before

11 we have resolved two more or less technical questions. The first one is

12 yesterday, you said you would comment on Document 52B. Any objections on

13 the admission into evidence, the document that was read out?

14 MR. OSTOJIC: 52, no, Judge, we do not have an objection since the

15 witness identified the individual, and that was our concern for purposes

16 of foundation. So no, we do not have an objection.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then 52B, admitted into evidence. And it is

18 agreed that we don't need any additional translation because we have it in

19 the transcripts. I see nodding from both sides. Then no interpretation

20 needed.

21 And finally, the Office of the Prosecutor took the Document 2F

22 from the series of photographs and evidently tendered this document. And

23 therefore, this should go as S15-23. And I don't see any objections from

24 the Defence to this. Therefore, it's admitted into evidence.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: One other minor matter to inform the Trial Chamber,

1 the Trial Chamber had asked the witness Dr. Cehajic to have a document

2 delivered to the Tribunal through the Office of the Prosecutor. And

3 apparently, that has arrived although it's partly illegible. I don't know

4 if it came by fax. But the information I have is that the copy is

5 partly illegible.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We'll come back to this. Do you want to comment

7 in open session why there is an exchange of witnesses, of upcoming

8 witnesses, especially as regards Witness 8, if I remember correctly?

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, I can say it in open session. Actually, I

10 prefer to do it in -- we've made a decision not to call Witness 8.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So we can strike Witness 8.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any other observations?

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Not with respect to this, but we do have one from an

15 earlier mentioned observation in connection with the Document Exhibit S52.

16 I'm not sure if we're going to get the other documents that the witness

17 had or not. I'm just truly unclear as to what the Court's position was on

18 that.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Put it this way: We have a meeting tomorrow,

20 11.30.

21 And then the trial stands adjourned until tomorrow, 2.15.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

23 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on

24 Friday, the 24th day of May, 2002,

25 at 2.15 p.m.