International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3484

1 Friday, 24 May 200

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.28 p.m.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Could you please call the

7 case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T,

9 the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, everybody. Could we have the

11 appearances, please.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon. Nicholas Koumjian with Ruth Karper

13 for the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

15 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Branko Lukic with Mr. John Ostojic for

16 the Defence.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May we --

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, before we begin, I just want to inform

19 the Trial Chamber, in light of some of the comments of the Trial Chamber

20 yesterday and in today's conference, there is a video that we were

21 planning on showing with the next witness, who actually took it, of the

22 Kozarac area taken last summer, if the Court, Trial Chamber, wanted to

23 show that to the witness, it's available today.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for the information. We should

25 immediately proceed with the cross-examination.

Page 3485

1 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued].

5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness P. Once again, my name is John Ostojic.

6 Thank you for coming and we'll try to be brief this afternoon.

7 Sir, I'd like to focus your attention on the Trnopolje camp as

8 you've described it. I'd like to ask you, were you ever at the Trnopolje

9 camp prior to May of 1992?

10 A. I knew Trnopolje. Sometimes I would transport some construction

11 materials from a shop, and also for the 1st of May celebrations, various

12 sports events would take place there. And this is how I am familiar with

13 the area of Trnopolje.

14 Q. I understand from your testimony that you were brought to

15 Trnopolje camp for a couple of days starting on May 26th of 1992. Were

16 you at Trnopolje the May 1st prior to May 26th, 1992, for purposes that

17 you just described in your answer, or was it the year before?

18 A. It may have been a year before, because I went there for the 1st

19 of May celebrations then.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Trnopolje a year prior to May

21 of 1992 or thereabouts, can you describe for us how it was different in

22 appearance, if you can, how it was different in appearance from -- and

23 we're trying to limit the question to the actual structures of the camp.

24 How was it different in May of 1991 to that which you saw in May of 1992

25 when you were detained there?

Page 3486

1 A. I am sure that the school existed also the year before, and also

2 during the time when the camp was there. As for the cafe that I also

3 mentioned across the road from the Trnopolje hall building, the cafe was

4 also there for a long time. The large cinema hall itself was also there

5 for a long time, and now whether it was refurbished a year ago or some

6 time ago I can't really tell you. The shop was also there all the time.

7 I don't know whether it was bigger or smaller before than at the time when

8 I was there.

9 Q. Can you help us and tell us, if you wish, whether or not there

10 were any homes immediately adjacent to the property that we now refer to a

11 the Trnopolje camp?

12 A. Well, across the road from the shop that I mentioned, there were

13 some houses there. And as you went on towards Kozarac, further up from

14 the school towards Kozarac, this area was inhabited quite densely on both

15 sides of the Trnopolje/Kozarac road.

16 Q. Is it fair to state that the Trnopolje camp was actually in the

17 middle of a residential housing community, if you know?

18 A. Well, one could say that they were on the outskirts of the areas

19 inhabited by people, because there was also the railroad and the fish

20 pond. So that would be the outer boundary of the inhabited area of

21 Trnopolje.

22 Q. Tell us, if you will, in 1992, May, the two or so days that you

23 were there, whether there was a fence surrounding the Trnopolje camp?

24 A. Partially yes, and partially no.

25 Q. Get back to that in a moment. Tell us in 1991, or whenever you

Page 3487

1 were there prior to May of 1992, whether there was a fence surrounding the

2 Trnopolje camp?

3 A. I think that the fence existed in 1991. It fenced off a section

4 of the Trnopolje/Kozarac Road and the Trnopolje/Prijedor, the old road,

5 Trnopolje/Prijedor, the intersection there, as far as I can remember.

6 Q. Yes, thank you. And I recognise that it's been some time, ten

7 years or so, since you were there. But if you could help us, is it fair

8 to state that the fence that was, if I can call it partially, surrounding

9 the Trnopolje camp was the same fence in 1991, and prior to that, 1990, if

10 you had visited then, as it was in 1992, May, when you were detained

11 there?

12 A. I can't recall the details. I do know that there were some

13 fenced-in areas before and after May 1992.

14 Q. Do you know, sir, where the checkpoint was at the Trnopolje camp,

15 how far away or how close in proximity to the entrance of the camp it was?

16 A. The access to the camp was from the Kozarac side, from the

17 Prijedor side, and to the south from the railway station. So the point

18 that I myself saw, the checkpoint, I was able to see the checkpoint in the

19 direction of Prijedor while I was in the camp. The other camps, I was not

20 interested in. I wasn't moving around in the camp, and I didn't see them.

21 Q. Finally, with respect to the fencing, if I may, is it fair to say

22 that there was not a fence at Trnopolje camp which surrounded the entire

23 camp? Or as best as you can, if you can, help us in understanding the

24 dimensions of the fence, if it was on the south, east, north, west, or all

25 those borders?

Page 3488

1 A. I can't tell you that. I will tell you, however, that during my

2 stay there, and before I left the camp in Trnopolje, there was no fence

3 that would enclose the entire perimeter of the Trnopolje camp.

4 Q. Can you estimate for us -- strike that. Do you know, sir, if the

5 Trnopolje camp or property premises were used in 1991 and/or 1992 to house

6 Serbian refugees from the area of Croatia?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Let me move to a different -- slightly different area. In

9 discussing your arrival to Trnopolje camp on May 26, 1992, I believe on

10 page 43, line 20 of your transcript and your testimony two days ago, you

11 mentioned that you slept in your own vehicle. Correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us or give us an estimate, sir, how many other

14 persons, while they were detained in Trnopolje camp, actually brought

15 their vehicles and slept in their vehicles during the time period,

16 obviously, that you were there, two or so days?

17 A. There may have been several dozens of cars, several dozens of

18 tractors, and several trucks. And also some tents that were set up next

19 to the tractor trailers or perhaps were just standing on the meadow in

20 front of the school and in front of the Trnopolje community hall.

21 Q. You also mentioned to us, briefly, and I'm summarising it, and

22 correct me if I am wrong, that after approximately nine days your wife

23 left Trnopolje camp, and that she, although your father and your brothers

24 remained, she would go to Trnopolje camp every other day in order to

25 provide for your family and others, possibly, milk, food, cheese, dairy

Page 3489

1 products, et cetera. Do you recall that testimony? It's page 48, line 19

2 through 20, for the record.

3 A. Yes, that's what I said.

4 Q. Just to refresh your recollection on that, you also were asked by

5 the Office of the Prosecutor whether or not there was a risk or danger to

6 your wife assisting, and I believe on page 48, line 19, the question was

7 as follows: "Was it dangerous for your wife to go to Trnopolje?" Line 20

8 page 48, answer: "It was dangerous. Any form of movement was dangerous.

9 There were many drunk soldiers along the road who were not subject to any

10 control or command. There were cases of rapes, women, of murders of

11 people passing by. It was always a risk."

12 Do you remember giving that testimony, sir?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I just have a couple follow-up questions on that if you don't

15 mind. When you say "many drunk soldiers" on line 21 of that answer, what

16 do you mean by that?

17 A. That's what I heard from my wife. Any number higher than one is

18 many. You can imagine how frightening it is for a woman to pass by such

19 people who were drunk and asking: "What do you want, do you have any

20 money." That was the fear that women couldn't describe, and they actually

21 preferred not to talk about it and not to talk about such occurrences.

22 Q. I most certainly understand, sir. My question, however, is were

23 you ever told by your wife or others any specific number which would

24 quantify for us the amount that was mentioned "many drunk soldiers"?

25 A. No, I don't know the number.

Page 3490

1 Q. You also, sir, with respect to the answer that you provided two

2 days ago on page 48, lines 20 through 23, where you stated that "there

3 were many drunk soldiers along the road who were not subject to any

4 control or command." What do you mean, sir, when you say "who were not

5 subject to any control or command"?

6 A. Well, a normal soldier who is under some kind of control shouldn't

7 be drunk while on duty, and he would have to abide by the normal rules of

8 conduct, in accordance with the regulations when communicating with

9 civilians, which was not always the case.

10 Q. You mentioned also an instance where there were drunk soldiers on

11 the road from Omarska to Manjaca. Do you remember that?

12 A. I remember that.

13 Q. In that instance, sir, do you remember how many drunken soldiers

14 are we referring about?

15 A. When the bus stopped in a Serb village called Hankola, three or

16 four such soldiers entered our bus and beat us on the bus where I was. So

17 I can assure you that there were four soldiers, three or four soldiers,

18 who entered the bus in Hankola in front of the cafe and beat people who

19 were transported from Omarska to Manjaca.

20 Q. So just to the record is clear, this was an instance where you saw

21 drunk soldiers again, taking part in certain activities that you've

22 previously described from the time in Omarska while you were going to

23 Manjaca. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Were these soldiers that you saw also, as you

Page 3491

1 described the soldiers that were dangerous during the Trnopolje events

2 that we just talked about, were they also not subject to any control or

3 command?

4 A. Well, in my opinion, it was a willful act by these people.

5 Q. And isn't it correct, sir, that it was the willful act of these

6 individuals that you're talking about. Correct?

7 A. In this case that I experienced, I can say that it was the case.

8 Q. Staying with this theme for a moment, if I may, in Omarska when

9 you were detained in Omarska camp during the Petrovdan celebration July

10 11th and July 12th, 1992, that you described, and the bonfire, if you

11 remember that testimony -- do you remember that?

12 A. I spoke about the big tyre from a Caterpillar vehicle. I wasn't

13 talking about any pyre.

14 Q. Fair enough. It was a fire that was started with a tyre or large

15 tyres as you've described it. I'm just trying to direct you to that day

16 or that date and that place, because I have some questions in connection

17 with that. So, the evidence will stand and I apologise if I've misstated

18 what you've earlier testified on that issue. All I want today is have you

19 focus on the July 11th and July 12th facts that you shared with us in

20 connection with that Petrovdan celebration. Fair enough?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On page 50 of your testimony, you described that on July 11th,

23 there was a lot of rejoicing and singing. Let me get the page number. Do

24 you remember that?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 3492

1 Q. Now, also, sir, can you tell us whether or not there was a lot of

2 drinking by the people who were either securing or providing some sort of

3 security at the Omarska camp on that July 11th and 12th, namely, either

4 the military personnel or the guards that were previously described? Were

5 they drinking?

6 A. I didn't see any of them with a bottle in his hand. But on the

7 basis of the songs that they were singing and the laughter and the events

8 that occurred later around the white house, one could establish quite

9 clearly that these people were, in fact, drunk. To what degree and what

10 the actual number of people was, it was impossible to determine that with

11 total security from that place.

12 Q. One moment.

13 If I may be permitted to read from the statement that you provided

14 to the OTP on August 26th through the 30th, signed on September 1st, 1994,

15 page 19, first full paragraph, which starts one quarter of the page down.

16 If the Court would permit me to read that paragraph. I'm going to read

17 the entire paragraph and if the Court feels I need to stop at any point,

18 because my point stops at halfway, but I'll proceed. Page 19 of your

19 statement, sir: "On Petrovdan, the Serbs were shooting more than usual.

20 They were drinking a lot. Petrovdan is celebrated on the evening of the

21 day before. This is the celebration started on the 11th and continued on

22 all through the next day. To the Serbs it didn't mean anything to pull a

23 prisoner out from the white house and put him on the fire. During the

24 daytime, nothing much happened. They were, in general, very drunk. It

25 was during the night on the 11th going on to the 12th that they were

Page 3493

1 taking out people, beating them, and throwing them on the fire. It was

2 mainly the guards who would do anything with the prisoners. Those guards

3 did what they wanted. On the evening of the 12th, there was no fire.

4 When they threw people on the fire, they were more dead than alive. They

5 would beat the prisoners almost dead and then throw them on the fire. I

6 think approximately ten people thrown on the fire. At night, it is

7 difficult to see exactly, but there were screams of the people when they

8 were thrown on the fire. I stood at the window for ten minutes, and

9 during that time, I saw one person thrown on the fire. I heard the

10 screams of other people. I do not know who the other people were, nor do

11 I know the names of the guards who threw people on the fire. People who

12 were in rooms 26 and 15 would be able to say much more about the white

13 house and what happened there because their rooms were almost right

14 opposite the white house."

15 Sir, does this help refresh your recollection that, in fact, the

16 guards and the personnel at the camp on or about Petrovdan were not only

17 drunk and were not only drinking a lot, but as you say in the fourth or

18 fifth sentence, they were "very drunk"?

19 A. Well, whether they were drunk or very drunk, the difference, as

20 far as I'm concerned, is not really great. Now, whether I said drunk,

21 very drunk, or slightly drunk, everything above two or three pomels ^ is

22 considered to be drunk by law.

23 Q. Nonetheless, they were drunk. The guards who were throwing the

24 prisoners, as you've described, were intoxicated. Correct?

25 A. That doesn't give them the right to throw people into the fire.

Page 3494

1 Q. And sir, I agree with you on that point. However, all I'm trying

2 to understand, from a factual standpoint, is it correct that the guards,

3 or the personnel, that were throwing the detainees, however wrong it may

4 be, that they were, in fact, drunk. Correct?

5 A. Can we say that they were half drunk?

6 Q. If I may just ask the Court for just some instruction. I'm not

7 sure to respond to the witness. I'm not sure that I got a responsive

8 answer to my question, if the Court believes that I have, I will move on?

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the answer was exhaustive.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

11 Q. Similarly to the drunken soldiers that you experienced or that

12 your wife was put at risk for during the Trnopolje visits she made to your

13 father and two brothers and similarly to the drunken soldiers you

14 described to us, during the Omarska to Manjaca, were these drunken

15 personnel, guards or soldiers, also not subject to any control or command?

16 A. I cannot evaluate that. If there had been any proper control, I

17 don't think that there would be any alcohol in the workplace. In my

18 opinion, they were able to decide themselves what to do and how to act.

19 Q. You also, if I may just turn the subject a little bit, turn to

20 another subject, you also described additional prisoners or prisoners,

21 detainees, who were at greater risk at Omarska. At one point I think you

22 mentioned that prisoners who had money and prisoners who were politically

23 involved were at greater risk. Do you remember that testimony?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. With respect to the --

Page 3495












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3496

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could we please have the interpreters that we

2 have once again on channel 4 the English translation.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now?

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, okay. We may proceed.


6 Q. Sir, do you know, with respect to the prisoners who were

7 identified or isolated and at risk because of their personal wealth, do

8 you know if these crimes that were committed upon them were random acts of

9 a criminal element who sought to rob and steal personally from certain

10 detainees at the Omarska camp?

11 A. I can't tell that.

12 Q. Do you know, sir, if there were any acts of personal vendetta by

13 any of the guards or personnel at the camp, against any of the detainees?

14 A. Well, in my opinion, all the police officers that were detained in

15 the camp disappeared from the camp in unknown circumstances, and the

16 assumption is that they were all killed. In many such cases, these were

17 acts of revenge towards the police officers on the part of the camp

18 leadership. People also who were higher up from the camp, the leadership

19 of the municipality, and we may go on. The region, republic, Yugoslavia,

20 it was a well-organised chain of liquidations of individuals and groups.

21 Q. I understand. Let me ask you this: Do you know of any instances

22 where a person or individual detainee was killed as a result of jealousy

23 between any of the people watching the detainee and that individual

24 detainee, whether it be that he was wealthy, owned a restaurant, or was a

25 police officer or politically active? Do you know of any such instance,

Page 3497

1 sir?

2 A. I don't know whether it was the idea of individuals to kill these

3 people. The fact is that the people were killed. I don't know who made

4 decisions in the camp, why such decisions were made. I don't know that

5 either. What the criterion was, according to which these people were

6 selected, but we could assume these were the rich people, the police

7 officers, active-duty servicemen, not to go into any more details. So at

8 any rate, the leadership of the camp in Omarska would have to give the

9 criteria according to which they worked, although I assume that they do

10 not remember anything.

11 Q. Let me direct your attention, if I may, to your statement given to

12 the OTP on August 26th through the 30th, 1994, signed on September 1st,

13 1994, page 23, first full paragraph. If I may read this in connection

14 with the issue that we were just discussing, Your Honour. Page 23, first

15 full paragraph from your statement, sir: "Dedo Crnalic was one of those

16 killed in the morning. He was one of the more wealthy people from

17 Prijedor. He had a good restaurant. He was a good tailor. One of the

18 Serbs probably killed him because of jealousy. I saw him killed. He was

19 stabbed in the stomach, and then they cleaned their knives on his shirt

20 after they killed him."

21 Sir, with respect to that statement, as you sit here, and just

22 tell us what your testimony is, was Dedo Crnalic killed possibly because

23 of jealousy, probably because of jealousy, or you just don't know?

24 A. I would have to ask the person who killed him why he did it, what

25 the true reason for it was.

Page 3498

1 Q. Approximately two and a half years after being detained at Omarska

2 and giving the statement to the OTP, why at that time, sir, did you think

3 that the person who killed Mr. Dedo Crnalic did it as a result -- probably

4 killed him -- because of jealousy?

5 A. Well, would things have changed if he had been killed for some

6 other reason?

7 Q. Let me ask you if I may, sir -- to change the subject, the topic,

8 please, with respect to your initial presentation or arrival at Manjaca

9 camp, you informed us that they at that time also asked for your

10 identification papers and essentially registered you. And I'm

11 paraphrasing, sir. If I'm incorrect on this, please clarify for me. I

12 don't mean to incorrectly paraphrase your testimony.

13 A. Yes, it was more or less like that.

14 Q. You also told us, sir, that while you were detained in Omarska

15 that you were also essentially registered and the personnel there asked

16 for your identification papers, et cetera. Do you remember that

17 testimony?

18 A. Yes, I remember it.

19 Q. My question is directly this: Did you show the personnel at

20 Manjaca camp the same identification papers that you showed the personnel

21 at Omarska camp?

22 A. Well, it was the only papers we had, we showed.

23 Q. Right. My question, though, is it fair to conclude, then, that

24 after showing your identification papers at Omarska camp, that you

25 actually retained and kept those identification papers with you during

Page 3499

1 your entire stay at Omarska, and then presented those same identification

2 papers to the personnel that asked you for them at the Manjaca camp,

3 several months or whatever the time period is? Would that be fair?

4 A. Well, most of the people kept their papers from the people in the

5 Omarska camp. We were definitely stripped of our ID when we arrived at

6 the Manjaca camp.

7 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you do not have or you were ever

8 returned your personal identification cards after your detention at the

9 Manjaca camp?

10 A. My ID card came in a big box, a box containing documents, to

11 Karlovac in the reception centre there. And there everyone could look for

12 his ID. Not all of the documents were found. I'm speaking of my

13 particular case.

14 Q. Yes, and that's what we're interested in. Is it fair to state

15 that all the documentation that you had with you upon your arrival to the

16 Omarska camp was actually retained by you and brought to the Manjaca camp

17 with you? Correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you at any time, sir, while discussing the tragic events of

20 the spring and summer of 1992, did you ever discuss with any other

21 detainees whether there were drunken soldiers at any time at the Keraterm

22 camp?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. Can you tell us if you know, sir, what, if anything, prevented the

25 guards or the personnel at the Omarska camp, while you were detained

Page 3500

1 there, from actually killing each and every one of the detainees there?

2 A. I didn't see.

3 Q. But as we know, and I don't want to be presumptuous, all the

4 detainees were not killed. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I don't remember your specific testimony on this, and don't want

7 to guess.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: If the Court will permit me.

9 Q. At one point, I believe you estimated from the number of detainees

10 at Omarska camp, how many do you believe were actually killed during the

11 time period that you were at the Omarska camp?

12 A. I don't know the exact number. Well, between a thousand and 2.000

13 people would be the assessment. I don't know how true that is. History

14 will tell.

15 Q. If I may just elaborate on that, sir, how many people were

16 actually detained in Omarska during the time period that you were there?

17 A. Well, we didn't know until we were actually released. When we

18 were released, they said that a thousand five hundred people went to

19 Manjaca, and approximately the same number to Trnopolje. And about 150

20 were left to stay there for another week or so. And when the Omarska camp

21 was closed so as to show the international organisations that they had

22 beds to sleep in, that they had enough food, and then when we were

23 transferred to Manjaca a day or two after that, the Omarska camp was

24 visited by international organisations, the UNHCR and many others. And

25 there, they saw our fairly normal state of affairs while they were

Page 3501

1 visiting it. Every prisoner had a bed, had enough food, was clean. They

2 were sitting in front of the kitchen, so that was the picture that the

3 world was able to see, in connection with the Omarska camp. At the

4 moment, one of the prisoners, I don't know in what language he used to

5 tell a foreigner, a foreign employee, that this was only -- a it was a

6 wrong picture that some of the people had been taken to Trnopolje, to

7 Manjaca, and then we were visited by these very same people in Manjaca,

8 and they told us that they were given this information at the Omarska

9 camp.

10 So about three to three and a half thousand people. The number

11 varied. People would come. People would disappear. I don't know what

12 the exact figures. I think that the people who managed the camps have

13 these figures recorded somewhere.

14 Q. All I'm interested, sir, is to know directly, during your

15 experience at the Omarska camp, how many did you personally see or know of

16 of detainees who were actually killed?

17 A. Well, if I say that someone was taken away and never returned, I

18 don't know to say about him, whether he is to be proclaimed dead or

19 missing.

20 Q. If the Court permits, and if the witness, you can classify them in

21 any way you wish. I just want to know how you classify them and what that

22 number is, from your perspective directly, sir.

23 A. Well, at least 50 people, to the best of my knowledge. A number

24 of them I could see dead, and another number would disappear in the

25 direction of the white house.

Page 3502

1 Q. Thank you.

2 Witness P, on behalf of the Defence, we would like to thank you

3 for your cooperation and your testimony. Again, we apologise that you've

4 had to wait over a couple of days. Thank you very much, sir.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any re-examination?

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just one or two questions.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

8 Q. Witness P, you talked about yourself having been stopped at some

9 checkpoints prior to the attack on Kozarac which I believe was exactly ten

10 years ago today. You mentioned two checkpoints, Omarska and a second

11 checkpoint. I believe you said Tunjica. Is that correct?

12 A. Tunjica, yes.

13 Q. Do you know who was manning those two checkpoints?

14 A. At one point in time -- in any case, the police was always

15 present. And very frequently, there was a military vehicle there with

16 people wearing military uniforms at those checkpoints.

17 Q. Do you know if these were people of one ethnicity or not?

18 A. Well, since the takeover of power in Banja Luka, it was obvious

19 that these were only Serb ethnicities in the police and in the army.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: No further questions on redirect.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness P, sorry that I have to ask once again a

25 question you already answered. It's for the purpose of the legal

Page 3503

1 assessment, go into some detail. On page 49 of the transcript, line 20,

2 following you were asked: "During your questioning, were you beaten at

3 that time?" It was Omarska camp. Answer, line 21: "During the

4 interrogation, there was a civilian standing. I had to sit on a chair

5 wrong way around so that my back would be free for beatings. During the

6 interrogation, there was a civilian standing behind me. A young person in

7 uniform was questioning me. The other one was taking down notes. He

8 wasn't interfering in the conversation. And when the person interrogating

9 was dissatisfied with my answer, then he would give a sign to the civilian

10 to beat me with a rubber baton."

11 Could you please tell us how long took this interrogation? How

12 many times and where were you beaten?

13 A. The interrogation lasted, perhaps, from between 20 and 30 minutes.

14 How many times I was beaten on my back, I really do not know. In any

15 case, more than ten times.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness P, in your statement from 1994, on page

17 12, last line, until page 13, first paragraph, you said: "The

18 interrogation took approximately two hours. My back hurt, but there was

19 no bleeding. It was only black and blue. No bones were broken. My

20 colleague in the neighbouring room had two ribs broken during his

21 interrogation. They did ask me whether I heard the screams and beatings in

22 the other room. They said if I didn't answer correctly, I would be

23 treated similarly and to just wait, that I would hear the screams."

24 In 1994, you told the representative of the OTP that it

25 interrogation took approximately two hours. Is this correct?

Page 3504

1 A. Well, our arrival, the fact that we waited in front of the office

2 where people were sitting, the interrogation itself, general discussion

3 about what should be done with us, this is what I meant when I said a

4 longer period of time. But the interrogation itself lasted up to half an

5 hour.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification.

7 In the same statement of 1994, page 15, second paragraph, you

8 said: "After my first interrogation, nothing happened to me except when

9 they came and asked for my money. Bjelobrk, he was a taxi driver from

10 Omarska, he was the one telling them I had money. I was advised to tell

11 them where my money was; otherwise, I could be beaten to death." Do you

12 remember this, and could you explain the details of this?

13 A. Well, I did give that statement. Bjelobrk, how he came by

14 information and how he informed the guards about it, I do not know. At

15 any rate, I spoke to a person who had to go along with Bjelobrk to his own

16 home to find money and gold for him. That colleague told me: "If they

17 should look for you, asking for money, you should say how much you have

18 and give it to them. If you don't do that, you will not fare well." And

19 that is what I did. Two or three of my colleagues who unfortunately tried

20 to give answers, they were taken away never to return.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You mentioned three names at that time. I

22 continue to quote from the same paragraph: "That happened to another

23 driver and the owner of the sawmill. Ekrem Melkic was the driver and

24 Vasif Kahrimanovic was the owner of the mill. Hilmil Nukic was another

25 driver. His house burnt down and his money was in that house, so they

Page 3505

1 didn't ask him many questions. My house didn't burn down, and I had to

2 draw sketches of the house to show them where my money was." Is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the three persons you named here, they were

6 never seen again?

7 A. Two, no -- are no longer alive, but one is. I could also mention

8 a third person who was taken away in the same fashion never to return.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please give us the name.

10 A. Vasif Alihodzic.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Another issue: On page 6 of your statement,

12 paragraph 2, in 1994 you said: "This I heard from my friend, a Muslim

13 policeman. He was sent back to Kozarac from his station in Prijedor and

14 told not to come back to work again. I spent two months with this man in

15 Omarska. He was taken away from there and never came back." Do you

16 remember the name of this man?

17 A. Dedo Arifagic is his name.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you, during the two months that you spent

19 with this man in Omarska, discuss why, and by whom, he was sent back to

20 Kozarac from his station in Prijedor and told not to come back to work

21 again?

22 A. Well, we didn't go into the details. After the takeover in

23 Prijedor, someone of the police, of the police command in Prijedor,

24 controlled by the Serbs then, established contact with the police in

25 Kozarac to join the Serb police force and declare their loyalty. And they

Page 3506

1 had only insignia of the Serb police, which the people in Kozarac did not

2 want to receive. This is as much as I know about it.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did your friend, the Muslim policeman, tell you

4 who was in charge, giving order to the police, not only who was head of

5 the police but also possible other superior persons?

6 A. No, he didn't speak about that.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And then finally, I want to turn to

8 a totally different issue: Could you please tell the Tribunal whether or

9 not there was any change in the paying system by the banks, after the

10 so-called takeover?

11 A. My company was in the Srbac municipality, and the payment

12 transactions that until then went to Sarajevo, were redirected to Banja

13 Luka or Belgrade. I could note that from the new giro account numbers

14 which were in the various payment forms for insurance, pension insurance,

15 social insurance, and so forth.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In your statement of 1994, page 6, third

17 paragraph, you said: "The companies were taken over by the Serbs. The

18 paying system by the banks was now directed to Banja Luka, and from Banja

19 Luka it was directed to Belgrade. I knew this because whenever I had to

20 make payments, I had to fill in two sides of the cheque. On one side

21 there were blanks which I had to fill in for payments to Sarajevo and that

22 bit was missing. In general, the paper was divided into three parts.

23 There was a stamp and blanks that had to be filled in for Sarajevo, the

24 second for the Opstina, and the third for Belgrade. After the takeover,

25 they cut out the one -- they cut out the one for Sarajevo and replaced it

Page 3507












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3508

1 with Belgrade." Is this correct?

2 A. Well, I don't know if I said cut out or replaced. I cannot

3 remember, but I know that the payment transactions, as a whole, went to

4 all directions except Sarajevo.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Furthermore, you stated, quote from page 5,

6 third-last paragraph: "For example, we did not receive television

7 broadcast from Sarajevo. All the bank accounts for business payments, for

8 electricity or gas or water were in Belgrade. No money went to Sarajevo.

9 All taxes went to Belgrade instead of Sarajevo. It became difficult to

10 travel. There was a lack of petrol." Correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this.

13 Judge Fassi Fihri.

14 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Witness P, you said that the

15 white house was the antechambre of death, and that there was another

16 house, a red house. What was the use of the red house?

17 A. What was done in the red house, I know that the people that had to

18 slaughter cattle kept talking about the red house. It could be seen

19 through the window. And there, they could find remains of clothing, of

20 shoes of their well-known colleagues who had been taken out a day or so

21 before. And that is why we called it the red house, because it was a

22 place where people were killed, probably during the night. I don't know

23 the exact entrance, where the exact entrance of the house was. We could

24 only see the house from the back. That is all.

25 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] So the two houses were used

Page 3509

1 for executioning people?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Vassylenko.


6 Have you ever heard about Dr. Stakic before the April takeover in

7 Prijedor municipality?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And what do you know about the role of Dr.

10 Stakic in the event you described in your testimony?

11 A. Well, I never knew that everything was under his control. I

12 didn't know what his position was, during the war.

13 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: On the page 4 of your written testimony, taken

14 in August 1994, you said that the weapons changeover would occur at night.

15 After the 6th of April when the western world recognised Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina, how do you explain this?

17 A. Well, I explain it by quoting what I said -- what I heard from a

18 Serb who lived in Banja Luka. He told me that people of Serb ethnicity

19 received arms during the night. It was also mentioned that people had to

20 keep their lights on so that they would know which houses were Serb houses

21 or whether someone would joke and that accidentally lights were on in the

22 house of a Muslim. Whether they received arms or not, I do not know. But

23 when the war began, all people of Serb nationality carried guns. So the

24 assumptions and stories proved to be true.

25 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And who ordered to give arms to the population?

Page 3510

1 A. I don't know.

2 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And one more question: On the page 12 of your

3 written testimony made in August 1994, you mentioned the function of the

4 investigation commission in the Omarska camp. What was the composition of

5 this investigation commission, whom this commission was subordinated to?

6 A. I don't know who they were subordinate to officially. I know some

7 people by sight. I recognised them during the interrogations. I can

8 mention their names. That was Gostimir Modic. Then a retired police

9 officer by the name of Meakic, and the director of the Kozara National

10 Park. I think his name was Knezevic. I'm not sure, but I do know that he

11 was the director of the Kozara National Park. I did not know the other

12 members of the commission. I saw that commission in a joint meeting at

13 the time when I was brought to a room above the kitchen in Omarska, I

14 recognised these three men. And their names were mentioned quite a few

15 times by other people who would also say: "I was interrogated by such and

16 such a person" or so and so. We heard that at the beginning, people from

17 Banja Luka would come in to interrogate. At one point, there was a rumour

18 that those people stopped coming, because less and less people would be

19 brought in to the camp. And that is why probably the people from Prijedor

20 continued to work on their own.

21 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Those people you mentioned, did they belong to

22 the police, to the military, or to civilian? Who were they?

23 A. I saw Meakic wearing a police uniform. And as for Mr. Modic and

24 Mr. Knezevic, I saw them in civilian clothes. So I don't know who they

25 were subordinate to.

Page 3511

1 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: I have no more questions. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any other questions?

4 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour. Thank you.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Mr. President. Thank you.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then we all have to thank you, Witness P, for

7 your patience with us and giving us so many detailed answers and insight

8 of that what happened from your point of view in 1992. And we have to

9 thank you for this. And you're excused.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stands adjourned until 4.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We may then proceed, please, the OTP.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. The next witness is s

16 Your Honour, before Your Honours is a binder containing new

17 exhibits that the Prosecution intends to offer and to identify today and

18 have given numbers at least for identification today.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You're speaking about list 1, 2, 3?


22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you could go into details.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: This binder contains the exhibits in list 2 and

24 list 3. If Your Honours' information, list 2 contains exhibits broadly

25 interpreted as coming within the category of Crisis Staff or National

Page 3512

1 Defence Council. And list 3 includes specific exhibits that we planned --

2 I haven't yet met with the next witness, but we plan to probably, or

3 possibly depending on what I learn from the witness over the weekend, if

4 he can comment on these, present and have the witness who will next

5 testify on Monday comment on these exhibits.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Sorry for letting you stand there.

7 Welcome, Mr. Inayat. And could you please give the solemn declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you, please be seated.


12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You may start.

13 Examined by Mr. Koumjian:

14 Q. Sir, would you state your name for the record.

15 A. My name is Mazhar Inayat.

16 Q. Mr. Inayat, can you tell the Chamber by who are you employed and

17 what is your title?

18 A. I am currently working with the Office of the Prosecutor as an

19 investigator, and I have been the investigations team leader since

20 December of 1997.

21 Q. When did you begin working for the Office of the Prosecutor of the

22 ICTY?

23 A. My first working day at the Tribunal was 9th of August, 1995.

24 Q. Prior to working with the United Nations, did you have any -- or

25 with the ICTY specifically, did you have any prior law enforcement

Page 3513

1 experience?

2 A. Yes, I have been with the police force in Pakistan since 15th of

3 December, 1980.

4 Q. Until what date approximately working?

5 A. I'm on absence of leave since 9th of August, 1995. So I'm still

6 employed by the police in Pakistan.

7 Q. Mr. Inayat, would you please inform the Trial Chamber regarding

8 the handling of evidence by the office of the Prosecution, specifically

9 when evidence is received or recovered, how is it physically handled,

10 where is it kept, and what records are kept documenting that evidence?

11 A. As an investigator, if I were to take signed statements from

12 witnesses or if I were to receive documentary material from outside

13 agencies, the first thing I would do is when I come back to the Tribunal,

14 I would record the information in a form called "information indexing

15 form," the IFF form. And in that form, I would list the source of the

16 information, when it was received, the dates it was received, the location

17 where it was received. And if there were others involved with me, then

18 the evidence has been received. And after completing the IFF form, I

19 would take the material to the evidence unit of the OTP, of the Office of

20 the Prosecutor. And I would make an entry on their IFF register

21 indicating that I have brought the evidence.

22 The evidence unit would then forward the material to a records

23 clerk who would then stamp the evidence. Each and every page has to be

24 stamped with a unique number, ERN number, evidence record number. Once

25 the unique numbers have been stamped on to the documents, then they are

Page 3514

1 sent for scanning, to scanners, who are also staff working in the evidence

2 unit. The scanners would then scan the material and then it's made

3 available to the OTP staff and we can view it electronically either on our

4 Keyfile database or on our Zyfind database.

5 Q. How do these procedures different for physical evidence, a

6 firearm, for example, or for something such as a photograph or video?

7 A. I think the only differentiation is that if the evidence has been

8 seized, then it has to be treated differently. For example, if I'm on a

9 search and seize mission and I have seized material under a search warrant

10 issued by this Chamber or by the Tribunal, then I have to complete a chain

11 of custody form immediately. I have to write down the exact details of

12 immediately when that happens. And then that chain of custody form

13 basically then is brought back with the evidence, and I'm the custodian of

14 that evidence up to the point it has been submitted with the evidence

15 unit. And again, when I come to the evidence unit, I have to fill out

16 another form for the chain of custody, and then the material is taken over

17 by the evidence unit. Same procedures are adopted for stamping and

18 scanning. But the material from chain of custody will go in a separate

19 vault, not the normal vault.

20 Q. How are the ERN number, the ERN numbers, given to physical

21 evidence? You mentioned a stamp on each page. Are physical items of

22 evidence also given ERN numbers?

23 A. Yes. Each and everything, even videos will be given -- of course

24 the ERN number for videos will start with the letter V. And for audios,

25 it will start with the letter A. But everything has to be stamped when it

Page 3515

1 is registered with the evidence unit.

2 Q. You indicated that you have been with the Office of the Prosecutor

3 for a long time. How long have you been working on investigations related

4 to the municipality of Prijedor?

5 A. When I was promoted as team leader in December of 1997, I joined

6 the -- one of the teams in the Office of the Prosecutor referred to as

7 team 1, which has been mainly responsible for investigating crimes in the

8 northwestern Bosnia, Prijedor being part of that region. So I would say

9 that since December of 1997, 1st December, 1997, I have been working on

10 Prijedor.

11 Q. I'd now like to go to a document labelled "list number 1."

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: And perhaps, at this time, Your Honour, the three

13 lists could be given exhibit numbers, lists 1, 2, and 3 if that's --

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No objections?

15 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could we please have the new numbers.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I know the registry, I had asked them, indicated

18 the binders also be marked. I don't know if they would prefer we mark the

19 binders first if they have already begun, if there's any preference.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I would say the list comes first, and then the

21 content. So list number 1.

22 THE REGISTRAR: List number 1 would be S53. List number 2 would

23 be S54. And list number 3 would be S55.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence under these numbers.


Page 3516

1 Q. Mr. Inayat, is it correct that list number 1 was prepared by you?

2 A. I prepared the last column, which is called sources, yes.

3 Q. Does this list -- well, you wouldn't be able to testify to this.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: But this list, for Your Honours' information,

5 concerns items that are already admitted into evidence, that already have

6 an exhibit number.

7 Q. On list number 1, Mr. Inayat, can you explain the last column

8 "sources" what procedures you went through in order to fill in that

9 column as to the source of the documents that have been admitted to date

10 on this case.

11 A. I think it's important that I must make this very clear, that

12 "sources" only means that I'm trying to indicate how the OTP came about

13 these documents. And the way to find this out is that if I have the ERN

14 number for a certain document which you can see is also mentioned in the

15 middle columns. And I can go into Zyfind or Keyfile databases and also

16 the IFF database, and after reviewing those databases, I can get all the

17 information on the source and that's what I have done to indicate the

18 source in the last column.

19 Q. As to list number 2 and number 3, did you also prepare those

20 lists?

21 A. I did, yes.

22 Q. And each of these, the documents are listed by 65 ter number. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. That is correct, yes.

25 Q. And they also have the ERN or ERN numbers. Correct?

Page 3517

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you fill in the information regarding the source in the same

3 manner?

4 A. Precisely.

5 Q. You mentioned, and it's indicated, on some of these sources, that

6 these items were seized in Prijedor. Are you familiar with the Office of

7 the Prosecutor served search warrants in Prijedor at any time?

8 A. There was a search and seizure mission in Prijedor which was

9 conducted on 12th of December, 1997. A large team of investigators and

10 interpreters and lawyers went on that mission with search warrants issued

11 by Judge Fuad Riad in the first week of December 1997. And we conducted

12 searches at four different locations in Prijedor. I was personally a

13 member of the search team.

14 Q. Was there a second search?

15 A. There was a second search in Prijedor which was conducted at six

16 different locations, and this second search took place in October, from

17 28th -- sorry from 27th until 29th of October, 2000. And again, I was a

18 member of that search team. But on the second occasion, I have to

19 clarify, that we did not have search warrants, although we did have the

20 prosecutors' directive, which allowed us to conduct the searches.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, if the witness, if the map that has

22 been marked --

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just, I'm a little bit surprised about

24 this document. For example, reading on page 1 on the bottom line, SK44.

25 This document was never admitted into evidence.

Page 3518

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Apparently there was an error made.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I hope this is the only one. Thank you.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, may Exhibit S3 be displayed on the


5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And apparently, sorry, the same is true for SK

6 43A and B.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: That is correct. That was the report that was not

8 admitted.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Thank you.


11 Q. Mr. Inayat, you indicated that these seizures, first in 1997, that

12 you went to four location inside Prijedor. Are these locations indicated

13 on this map, the Prijedor town map, Exhibit S3?

14 A. Yes, they are indicated, yes.

15 Q. Can you point to those and indicate the four locations.

16 A. This one here is the Municipal Assembly building, and this is the

17 location where I personally went to. This here is the SUP or the police

18 station building. A lot of my colleagues went there. And the third one

19 is the SDS offices. In fact, the arrow is indicating to the street, so

20 the SDS offices are very close to the end of this arrow. That's the third

21 location. And finally, a team went to this location which is the radio

22 station and Kozarski Vjesnik offices. Kozarski Vjesnik offices will

23 locate in the radio station building, so that's the fourth location. This

24 is 12 December, 1997.

25 Q. Thank you. And in the year 2000 seizures, can you indicate the

Page 3519












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3520

1 locations that were searched?

2 A. In October 2000, we searched the police station once again. And I

3 went there. So let me put it like this. Yes. So I went to the police

4 station here. And I went on the 28th and 29th. I went there on two days.

5 Then we went to the Ljubija mine headquarters. This is here.

6 Then we went to the health centre, which is here. The fourth location we

7 went to was the Prijedor hospital, which is here. The fifth location was

8 in the Omarska camp, which you cannot see here on the map, which is

9 further southeast of Prijedor. So these were the locations we went in

10 October 2000.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Inayat, did you also prepare certain maps for use

12 in this case?

13 A. Yes, I have.

14 Q. And can you tell us what you used in order to prepare those maps,

15 what kind of computer programmes or hardware and software you used?

16 A. The OTP has in its possession, geographical information systems

17 software called Artview. We've had it since 1996. The current version we

18 are using is Artview 3.2. This is a software developed and which is owned

19 by an American company which has offices in Rotterdam, and the company is

20 called Esri. I received training almost 18 months ago on how to use this

21 software. It's a powerful tool which allows me to create a map and to

22 insert any information I want. I can highlight villages. Two arrows

23 indicate landscapes that I want to. I have been frequently using the

24 system, and I think I probably believe something like four maps have been

25 exhibited in this case that I have created on Artview.

Page 3521

1 Q. How are the actual locations determined as far as the relationship

2 between one location and another? What is used in that software, do you

3 know?

4 A. The software has a certain search tools. For example, if I were

5 to focus on the municipality of Prijedor, the actual map will not show me

6 where Hambarine is, for example. Just giving an example. But using the

7 search tool, if I were to highlight Hambarine, it will give me the exact

8 coordinate, in fact, it will take me spot on where Hambarine is. And then

9 using certain other features from the programme, I can then use certain

10 dots or images or symbols to point where Hambarine is, and then I can use

11 even text to write the word "Hambarine." So there are other tools such as

12 a tool that allows me to measure distances. For example, if I wanted to

13 know the exact distance between Prijedor and, say, Kozarac, I will use

14 that tool and it will give me the exact distance. As I said, it's a

15 powerful programme which allows me a number of things to do to prepare

16 maps which can then be seen and, you know, and in court.

17 Q. If S51 could be displayed on the ELMO, please.

18 Sir, on some of the maps, there are photographs surrounding the

19 map. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, I have prepared some maps on Artview where the trial team

21 wanted to also highlight digital images of relevant places, so I was able

22 to do that also.

23 Q. Did you prepare today an indication for each of these photographs

24 that you used as to the date that that photograph was taken?

25 A. Yes, I did create this three-page document which gives information

Page 3522

1 on when the digital photographs appearing on these maps were taken.

2 Q. I believe that everyone should have a document which was

3 distributed this afternoon, the first page, it's a spreadsheet. And the

4 first page or table, item number 1, is Ljubija/Brisevo overview. Could

5 this be marked as the next exhibit in order.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please give us some guidance what you

7 are speaking about.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, it is a --

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Follows the three lists that were previously marked

10 independent from the binder.


12 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's a three-page document.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Here we are. Right. So consequently, it would

14 be 56. Right? Objections?

15 MR. OSTOJIC: No objections, Your Honour.



18 Q. Mr. Inayat, can you briefly explain this table that you prepared

19 in S56.

20 A. If you look at the first column, it gives four serial numbers

21 which are for four different maps that I have prepared which have digital

22 images. And then for each of these four maps, in the fourth column, you

23 will see digital photograph number. This is the number which is on the

24 photograph on the map. And the last column indicates the date when the

25 image was recorded by an investigator and the name of the investigator.

Page 3523

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have another document which should

2 have been distributed indicating "index of Prijedor photographs." May

3 that be marked next in order, S57, I believe.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 57. I can see no objections.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: No objection, Your Honour.



8 Q. Mr. Inayat, is it correct that this index of Prijedor photographs

9 was prepared by you and indicates the source of the photographs that were

10 in Exhibit Number 15, I believe, S15, the booklet of photographs from

11 Prijedor for this case?

12 A. Yes. When I received this booklet which had something like 30-odd

13 photographs on it with ERN numbers, so I searched the sources as to how we

14 received the photographs. And in the last column, I've indicated that.

15 Q. Mr. Inayat, can you tell us -- briefly describe for the Trial

16 Chamber the procedure used when a statement is taken from a witness who

17 does not speak the same language as the interviewer. What are the OTP

18 procedures for taking a statement through interpretation?

19 A. I'll just give a personal example, because I have been involved in

20 taking statements from many witnesses. So after I've identified a witness

21 who has to be met, I will call him, seek his permission for an interview.

22 Once that's given, I will go with an interpreter, occasionally also with

23 trial lawyer from the team, and we will meet with the witness. After

24 introductions and in most cases after giving him my visiting card, we'll

25 spend about five, ten minutes explaining him the reason for this visit and

Page 3524

1 how long the interview will take. Of course, the interpreter is

2 interpreting all along because most witnesses from former Yugoslavia, they

3 do not understand English. I have a laptop with me, and I explain this to

4 the witness, that it might take a day or two, and that he has to give me

5 brief answers which the interpreter will relay to me, and I'll ask him

6 questions. And we always ask witnesses to always distinguish between what

7 they have seen and what they have heard. So with some advice on these

8 matters, we start with the interview. Once the interview has been

9 recorded, the investigator or, in my case, I would read the statement to

10 myself once again on the laptop and see if any additional follow-up is

11 required. If it is required, then I'll ask additional questions to

12 clarify areas of his statement or her statement.

13 Once all that has been done and I have edited the statement, in

14 terms of spellchecks and things like that, then I will request the

15 interpreter to read back the statement to the witness. The interpreter is

16 looking at an English transcript, but she is translating that into the

17 B/C/S language. Once the readback has been completed, investigators will

18 always ask the witness if he is satisfied with his or her statement

19 because they have to sign it, and since they are going to adopt it, they

20 have to say they are satisfied. And once the witness is satisfied with

21 the statement, we will print the statement and we will ask the witness to

22 sign on the first page, initial all other pages, and finally on the last

23 page, there is a witness acknowledgment, in which the witness says that

24 the statement has been read back to me and that I agree with the contents.

25 In recent years, we've also inserted a B/C/S witness acknowledgment so

Page 3525

1 that the witness can read this. And then he will again sign the last

2 page. The interpreter will sign the interpretation. There's a

3 certification, interpretation certification. She'll sign and initial all

4 other pages. And the investigator will also sign the first page and

5 initial all other pages.

6 Q. Is the statement a verbatim -- taken verbatim from the witness,

7 the witness's words, or is the statement first written in a narrative form

8 by the investigator summarising the answers and information given by the

9 witness?

10 A. The matter that I've always used as an investigator, I have taken

11 down verbatim what the witness has been telling me.

12 Q. Do you take down every word that the witness says?

13 A. I take most of what the interpreter says.

14 Q. Is the -- you indicated that the statement is read back. You

15 prepare the statement in English. Is that correct?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. And it's read back to the witness by the interpreter. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Is the interpreter reading off the screen of the laptop normally

21 or off of printed material?

22 A. It can vary from investigator to investigator. I personally

23 prefer to allow the interpreter to sit with me and to start reading from

24 the monitor, from the laptop. Some investigators prefer printing it out

25 and then doing the read back, but then if changes are required, then a lot

Page 3526

1 of time is wasted. So just to save time.

2 Q. You indicated that the witness signs the statement. Is that

3 statement the witness signs then, the English statement that you've

4 prepared or the investigator has prepared?

5 A. Yes, certainly, yes, always invariably.

6 Q. Now, this Trial Chamber has seen B/C/S versions of those

7 statements. Can you explain when those are prepared?

8 A. So when I have taken statements from witnesses on mission, I'll

9 come back and complete the IFF form for each statement. It will go to the

10 evidence unit. And then if the team has identified that particular

11 witness to testify or for further follow up, then a translation request is

12 put in to the CLS branch of the Tribunal where all translation work is

13 done. And it is at that point that that English statement that the

14 investigator has taken is then translated into the B/C/S language.

15 Q. Last summer, did you take a video, a film, from a helicopter over

16 the area of Prijedor, among other areas?

17 A. That is correct, on 22nd of July, 2001, that happened.

18 Q. Did you prepare an edited version of that tape?

19 A. I have prepared an edited tape which is about 11 minutes and 40

20 seconds.

21 Q. When you say edited, can you explain what you did to the first

22 film that you took?

23 A. The first film that I took of Prijedor was something like 55

24 minutes, maybe even more than that, and having discussed this within the

25 trial team, it was believed in courts you don't have that much time to

Page 3527

1 show the whole film, so it's better to just concentrate on the main areas

2 that you want shown in the Court. So keeping that in mind, I went to the

3 audiovisual section in the Tribunal, and I had it edited to show only the

4 relevant portions, related to the indictment I should say.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, the video is prepared to be played.

6 May it be given a number at this point.

7 THE REGISTRAR: This would be S58.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no objections. Admitted.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sorry. No objection, Your Honour.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, may we play S58, and may I ask the

11 witness at any point he wants to stop the tape, he can ask for it to be

12 stopped. Please point out the sights that you recognise on the tape as

13 it's being played. May we proceed in that manner. Thank you, Mr.

14 President.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are looking at the Omarska

16 detention camp, and in the background you can see the open-cast quarry

17 where iron ore was extracted before the war. This Your Honours, you can

18 see there are about four buildings. The one nearest to us is the

19 administration building, and then there is this big red hangar building,

20 and the small building in front of the big red hangar building is the area

21 referred to as the white house. This is the administration building, Your

22 Honours.


24 Q. Does that contain the kitchen?

25 A. That does contain the kitchen on the front portion on the ground

Page 3528

1 floor.

2 Q. Can you see the red house?

3 A. Yes, the red house is the small --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and the witness please slow

5 down and make pauses between question and answer. Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the open-cast quarry, which

7 is about I would say 500 metres from the main hangar building. And this

8 camp, Your Honours, is located southeast of Prijedor about 21 kilometres I

9 would say by road.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Can we stop the tape at this point.

11 Q. We see some roads here by the camp. Can you explain where those

12 roads go?

13 A. In fact, what I'm looking at right now is there is -- one of

14 the -- this road is basically is going around the camp. And if we just

15 play this a little bit, I can then point out the direction it takes to go

16 to Trnopolje. This is just coming out of the camp now. And this road

17 that you see is heading west towards Trnopolje. And the rail track is

18 also running parallel. In the distance you can see the fish pond, which

19 is very close to the Trnopolje camp. [Need notation for video played].

20 This is, Your Honours, I think about -- less than 5, maybe 6, 7

21 kilometres from Omarska. This is the fish pond I was referring to, which

22 is located south of Trnopolje camp. In fact, very close to the camp.

23 This, Your Honours, in the very centre of your screens is the big white

24 building which before the war was a school in Trnopolje and turned into a

25 detention area, also known as the Trnopolje camp.

Page 3529

1 And the railway station in Trnopolje is located about 200 metres

2 from this camp. Initially, most people who were deported were deported

3 from this railway station. Your Honours, this grassy area that you see at

4 the back of the camp, this was mainly used for the refugees. The majority

5 of refugees who couldn't go into these buildings inside were staying

6 outside. The smaller white building that you see to the right of your

7 screens was also part of this camp, but it was the community centre. And

8 just behind it was the Serbian Red Cross headquarters. This place,

9 Trnopolje, Your Honours, is about 5 kilometres south of Kozarac, where we

10 will be heading now after we have finished with Trnopolje.

11 This is the railway station, Your Honours, at the bottom of your

12 screens. This is a road coming from Omarska, the car is heading towards

13 Trnopolje from Omarska. So this is an asphalt road right in front of the

14 Trnopolje camp heading towards Kozarac on the right side. This is in

15 between Kozarac and Trnopolje, the Ukrainian orthodox church, which is

16 still intact. And very close to this church are the small hamlets of

17 Jaskici and Sivci, places that will probably be mentioned during the

18 course of this trial. The main road heading towards Kozarac.

19 This here, Your Honours, is Kozarac. And Your Honours, this is

20 Kamicani. Look at it very close to Kozarac. This, Your Honour, is the

21 big road that you see at the bottom, is the main Banja Luka/Prijedor Road.

22 Banja Luka is about 48 kilometres from Prijedor. We are still in

23 Kamicani. And this, the centre of your screens, is the wood-processing

24 plant in Kozarac. And very soon you will see the intersection, the main

25 intersection of Kozarac. This, Your Honours, is the orthodox church in

Page 3530

1 Kozarac. And here you can see Kozarac village, which is quite a big

2 settlement. Another view of Kozarac looking north.

3 Your Honours, there is a road from Kozarac, a metal road going up

4 to the top of the mountains, about 9 to 10 kilometres in distance. It

5 takes you to Benkov's barracks. This is the Benkov's barracks. These

6 barracks, before the war, were used as a summer camp for students from all

7 over the country, but in January 1992 was taken over by the RS army, the

8 JNA and later the VRS. And even today, it is with them.

9 You can see those barracks at the back, facing the forest. There

10 are several barracks. And end of May, beginning of June, people who were

11 fleeing from Kozarac, they were arrested from the forested area and

12 detained here for several weeks before being transported to other camps in

13 Prijedor. So these are the barracks which were used as detention.

14 From here, Your Honours, we'll be heading west. And the first

15 location we'll come to is the Keraterm ceramics factory which is also

16 known the detention camp. Your Honours, at the bottom of your screen,

17 the big building you see is the Keraterm factory. The brick factory is

18 just behind it. We may not be able to see, this one on the right. This

19 factory is located less than 2 kilometres from Prijedor centre. And on

20 the main Prijedor/Banja Luka Road. Your Honours, now you will be seeing

21 at the very bottom of your screens, I will indicate that, the offices of

22 the Kozara Putovi construction company which you just saw the red roofs at

23 the bottom of your screens. And these offices were used for

24 interrogations during the initial operation of this detention camp.

25 This is the front view of the Keraterm camp. And you see an

Page 3531












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3532

1 asphalt path leading to a metal door here, Your Honours. You will see it

2 again. This is referred to as room number 3. It's right in the centre of

3 your screens now. And rooms 1 and 2 were to the left, and room 4 to the

4 right. Your Honours, this is the centre of Prijedor where all the

5 government buildings are, which I showed you on that map also. And in the

6 middle of your screens, you see Prijedor hotel right on River Sana. Your

7 Honours, now we are heading towards west of Prijedor to the Brdo region.

8 Six villages located there, Biscani, Rizvanovici, Rakovcani, Hambarine,

9 Brisevo -- oh sorry, Carakovo, not south direction. Now we are in

10 Biscani. There's a lot of construction going on these days when we made

11 this film. This Your Honours is still Biscani. You will see a small

12 white-coloured clear mine. This clear mine, as you can see it at the

13 right hand middle of your screens is located very close to a square called

14 Mrkalj square, and I think this will figure quite frequently during -- I

15 was even trying to point from the helicopter. This, Your Honours, is the

16 hamlet, Hegici, also located in Biscani and will be referred to during

17 these proceedings.

18 Your Honours, we are now heading to Rizvanovici. This is the

19 village of Rizvanovici, located within kilometres of Biscani. Prijedor

20 city in the distance, and fish pond also in the distance. Your Honours,

21 this is Rakovcani, also located -- in fact very, very close to

22 Rizvanovici. Now we are still in Rakovcani. Now, Your Honours, we are

23 coming to Hambarine Polje, part of Hambarine village.

24 This, Your Honours, is Hambarine village, the big building in the

25 centre of the screen is the community centre. Hambarine, I believe, is

Page 3533

1 probably one of the biggest villages in the Brdo region. And this, Your

2 Honours, we are overflying Carakovo, the fifth village, located very close

3 to Sana, Sana River, I mean. This is a community centre you see at the

4 middle of your screens. It is also a new cemetery. And Your Honours,

5 River Sana and the thing I want to show you here is the bridge called the

6 Zege Bridge, and we will be focussing on it now. This place will also be

7 mentioned when witnesses talk about Carakovo. This is the bridge.

8 From here, Your Honours, we will be going to Ljubija. This is the

9 Ljubija football ground. This, Your Honours, is an area where we exhumed

10 mass graves. We won't be able to see the exact place there because

11 helicopters couldn't fly over certain areas. This, Your Honours, is

12 Brisevo, overwhelmingly Catholic village completely destroyed, and a lot

13 of people killed in July of 1992.

14 The last thing you will see, I think we are about to finish now,

15 is the Catholic church was built in 1990, a newly-built Catholic church in

16 the distance there. One of the maps shows the photograph gives the

17 impression that the church is still intact. The photograph was taken from

18 the front of it. That's why. If you look at this aerial image, it shows

19 that it's destroyed. There is no roof. That's it.


21 Q. Mr. Inayat, you indicated at one point a map --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Inayat, you indicated at one point a location where bodies had

25 been exhumed, an exhumation site. What is the name of that site?

Page 3534

1 A. In fact, there are two locations there. The first one is called

2 Redak, in a small area called Kipe. That site was exhumed in, I believe,

3 1999. And then the second site was exhumed last year, also very close to

4 the first one in the Ljubija area, and the site is called Jakerina Kos.

5 Those were the two sites exhumed by us.

6 Q. I think at one point you were indicating that this was an area

7 where a helicopter could not fly over. Was that Jakerina Kos?

8 A. No, that was Redak Kipe. And Jakerina Kos is about 2 kilometres

9 further down the road. But there is a map I know, that you are using,

10 where I've indicated the exact locations of these two mass graves.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I don't have any more questions of the

13 witness. But the exhibits referred to in Exhibits Number 54 and 55 are in

14 binders. I'm wondering if we could mark those at this point,

15 indicating -- I realise the Defence hasn't had time to make any objections

16 regarding them. I don't know if Your Honour prefers to mark them now or

17 at a later point.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's worthwhile marking, and then let's

19 wait and see whether or not there are objections.

20 Could the registry please start with the new exhibit numbers.

21 THE REGISTRAR: So we are talking about these two right now?


23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Starting with 99.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Starting with each 65 ter number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: So number 99 will be S59. 158 will be S60. 172 is

Page 3535

1 S61.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Most of these, Your Honours, do have a B/C/S

3 translation, or an English translation and a B/C/S original. So can we

4 assume that for each of these the English is A and the B/C/S is B?

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. But let's be careful and do it piece by

6 piece that we really have everything together.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: So on 99, the English would be S59A,and the B/C/S

8 S59B. Is that correct?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, this is correct.

10 Proceed? So we have S60A and S60B. S61A and S61B. 65 ter number

11 201 will be S62A and S62B. Number 204 will be S63A and S63B. Number 207

12 --

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please not so fast that I can follow whether we

14 have both English and B/C/S version. Is it correct, the former 204,

15 B/C/S, there is no better copy available?

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: We can try to see if there's a better copy

17 available. May we leave this for now, and we will try to see if our

18 original is any better.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. 207.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Number 207 will be S64A and S64B. Number 208 will

21 be S65A and S65B. Number 212 will be S66A and S66B. Number 218 will be

22 S67A, S67B. Number 219 will be S68A and S68B. Number 224 will be S69A

23 and S69B. Number 225 will be S70A and S70B. Number 226 will be S71A and

24 S71B. Number 227 will be S72A and S72B. Number 228 will be S73A and

25 S73B. Number 229 will be S74A and S74B.

Page 3536

1 Number 230 will be S75A and S75B. Number 237 will be S76A and

2 S76B. Number 246 will be S77A and S77B. Number 247 will be S78A and

3 S78B. Number 248 will be S79A and S79B. Number 253 will be S80A and

4 S80B. Number 257 will be S81A and S81B. Number 267 will be S82A and

5 S82B. Number 268 -- sorry.


7 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think there's a problem with 267. I see, Your

8 Honours. Only one page B/C/S. I see. I see, I'm sorry. It does have.

9 All three pages are translated.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Announcement and decision.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Correct.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: All together. Okay.

14 THE REGISTRAR: So number 268 will be S83A and S83B.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Stop. What should go as 83A, I can understand

16 in English. But then we have numerous pages in B/C/S.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Can we check for a moment. I think this may

18 already be admitted, this exhibit. I'm double checking that.

19 No. Apparently it's a different interview.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But shall we please do with all the B/C/S pages?

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, I think the reason there are multiple pages

22 is in order to get all of the newspaper in. Each one, it's the same page

23 but photographed several different times, so to have the entire article

24 photocopied, apparently they put the newspaper in different positions.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Please continue.

Page 3537

1 THE REGISTRAR: Number 278 will become S84A and S84B. Number 279

2 will become --

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Stop once again. Here I have one page in

4 English, and two pages in B/C/S.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: The second page in B/C/S, apparently the

6 translation is not included at the moment. We could check on that.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So for the record, the B/C/S with register

8 number 00633806 is still open.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Correct. We're checking to see if there's a

10 translation of that page.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then proceed to 279.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Actually, if I could suggest, to make it easier, we

13 take out the second page. It's also a separate decision, so it probably

14 should be given a different number in any case. And we can decide on

15 whether we want to admit that as a separate exhibit later.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Number 279 becomes S85A and S85B. Number 299

17 becomes S86A and S86B. Number 303 becomes S87A and S87B. Number 305

18 becomes S88A and S88B. Number 306 becomes S89A and S89B. Number 365

19 becomes S90A and S90B. Number 440 becomes S91A and S91B. Number --

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Wait a minute. It's the wrong one. 455.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Number 455 becomes S92A and S92B.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Shall we continue with list 3 immediately?

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Number 21 becomes S93A and S93B. Number 25

Page 3538

1 becomes S94A and S94B. Number 42 becomes S95A and S95B. Number 69

2 becomes S96A and S96B.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What's wrong here? We have two English pages.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's correct. The only thing on the last page is

5 a stamp regarding how it was obtained.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have the impression we have two English

7 translations.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: And we have two different decisions, I believe.

9 Maybe not.



12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could the English page be explained, please,

13 after 96B. To which document does this belong?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe what happened in this case, which happens

15 sometimes, is that the same document was received, IFFed and ERNed twice

16 and translated twice. It's the same decision. It may have been obtained

17 from two different sources. We would ask that just one remain, the first

18 remain, and both of the English and the B/C/S, and the second be removed.

19 So the original B/C/S would be P0038529. And the other page, we can

20 remove.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm hesitant whether we can really remove. I

22 don't know what the content, but evidently, there are different stamps on

23 it. And I don't know whatever will be the meaning at the end of the day.

24 And therefore, I believe we should have it as it is. My only question was

25 what about the following English page 00389096A?

Page 3539

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, that is a certification as to how it was

2 received. And perhaps we may give that a different letter other than A

3 and B. Actually, it should be part of B, because that's the certification

4 how the original, B, was received. That's probably the back of the

5 original stamp that was placed on the back.


7 THE REGISTRAR: Number 76 becomes S97A and S97B. Number 77

8 becomes S98A and S98B.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. But I can't see any 77.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: That actually is already admitted, and so we should

11 not give it a number. I'm sorry, that should not have been on the chart.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then we may proceed with 79.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Number 79 becomes S98A and S98B. Number 81

14 becomes S99A and S99B.

15 Number 83 becomes S100A and S100B. Number 84 becomes S101A and

16 S101B.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Next on the chart is already admitted also, so we

18 will not have the 65 ter in the binder. So that should be skipped, number

19 87.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Number 120 becomes S102A and S102B. Number 133

21 becomes S103A and S103B. Number 139 becomes S104A and S104B. Number

22 140 becomes S105A and S105B.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Here, we once again have two B/C/S versions.

24 Correct? Or even three or more? Could you please have a look what's

25 about 105B.

Page 3540

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: I notice that the three B/C/S, each has a different

2 ERN number, although they are sequential. So I'm confused about it, but

3 apparently they were seized as three different original papers. Each page

4 was ERNed separately, but it's the same document, so there's one English

5 translation.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So for the record, and for the list, we should

7 clarify that Exhibit Number 105B consists of four documents.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. And actually, looking at the signature, it is

9 three different documents.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed. 171.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Number 171 becomes S106A and S106B. Number 200

12 becomes S107A and S107B.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before we turn to 220, I don't believe that this

14 can be the translation of what we can find in B/C/S. Or is it the

15 intention only to admit into evidence, or to tender, to be correct, now

16 number 97 on the B/C/S version, and to exclude the rest of the page?

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry, I'm confused by number 97. We're

18 talking about 65 ter number 200?


20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. The only -- we're only talking about decision

21 number 97. This, I believe, is a page out of the gazette. I'm not sure

22 about that, but we're only tendering number 97 which is translated, for

23 this exhibit.


25 THE REGISTRAR: Number 220 as described becomes S108A and S108B.

Page 3541

1 Number 222 becomes S109A and S109B.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This seems to be a little bit confusing. I have

3 numerous documents under 222.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's numerous decisions. It's one copy of one

5 issue, issue number 2, for the gazette of the Autonomous Region of

6 Krajina, 1992. So the gazette lists numerous decisions, but the gazette

7 was seized as one document, one publication.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So is it correct to state that the document 109A

9 includes 50 pages?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. That's correct. That's exactly correct,

11 running sequentially in ERN number 00497838 to 7860.


13 THE REGISTRAR: Number 261 becomes S110A and S110B. Number 262

14 becomes S111A and S111B.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Once again, it's the same problem. It's only 55

16 on 111B?

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Correct.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Number 263 becomes S112A and S112B.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The same will be true with 264, it's only 97?

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Mr. President.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Number 264 becomes S113A and S113B. Number 276

22 becomes S114A and S114B. Number 289 becomes S115A and S115B. Number

23 298 becomes S116A and S116B. Number 305 becomes S117A and S117B.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can't see 305.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Apparently, it didn't make it into the binder, and

Page 3542

1 perhaps we will not mark it. We'll bring it down Monday, if we use it.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So please, may it be skipped from the registry.

3 And we conclude by S116A and B.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, Mr. President, just one other matter

5 on this. List number 1, Your Honour pointed out that there were a couple

6 of items listed as admitted that were not. We have corrected that. It

7 has been corrected by Ms. Karper during the testimony of Mr. Inayat, and

8 we could substitute, Your Honour, if it's agreeable to all parties, a

9 corrected list.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That's fine, we appreciate.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: S53. I can hand out a corrected S53.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

13 Any other technical problems?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would move the video into evidence if it has not

15 yet been actually admitted into evidence.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it has been. It has a number already.

17 And I would say it's only fair to give the Defence the opportunity to

18 object until, say, Tuesday.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. That would be great. Thank

20 you very much.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So then it's appropriate to have a break until

22 5.45.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, for the record, the Prosecution is

Page 3543












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3544

1 assisted now also by Lise-Lotte Karlsson.

2 We have no further questions. The witness is available. But if

3 the Defence wanted to indicate their preference, which I have no objection

4 to.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: We will proceed in any way the Court wants us to. We

6 can either ask a couple questions. We, however, having just received some

7 of these, although previously obviously they were presented to us, would

8 like some time to go into detail with each of the exhibits with the

9 witness. We are prepared to go forward for about a half hour, otherwise

10 we would reserve our right to continue to ask this witness some other

11 questions based upon his testimony and obviously his duties here at the

12 OTP.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I understand that you intend to proceed with

14 some general questions during the next half hour, and then later on,

15 having had a view on all the documents, cross-examination also related to

16 some documents?

17 MR. OSTOJIC: That's fair, if that's the way the Court wants me to

18 proceed --

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Then let's proceed this way.

20 May the witness be brought in once again.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:

22 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Inayat, my name is John Ostojic, and I'm here with Mr. Branko

24 Lukic and we represent the accused Milomir Stakic in this case. Good

25 evening or good afternoon. I'm going to ask you a couple questions today

Page 3545

1 with some guidelines the Court has provided us. I may be asking you some

2 questions in the future when you testify again in connection with other

3 documents related to these you've presented to us today. So bear with me

4 please. Sir, just briefly, can you tell us what your educational

5 background is.

6 A. In 1980, I finished my -- graduated from the University of

7 Islamabad in Pakistan with a master's degree in International Relations.

8 And in 1988, I was selected on a British Consul scholarship and I attended

9 Exeter University for a year and a half, and I did my masters in Police

10 Studies.

11 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't catch the name of the university.

12 A. Exeter university is about 200 kilometres southwest of London.

13 Q. Thank you. A couple general questions, in connection with some of

14 the testimony you gave today. I note on page 13, line 21 through 25 of

15 today's transcript, and proceeding on page 14, line 1 and might be just

16 me, but you initially stated that there were six locations during the

17 second search that were performed. And I was able only to write down

18 five. So maybe if I list them and then you can tell me which one is

19 missing. Or if you'd like to list them, I'll do whichever you'd like.

20 Were there six locations or five that you actually searched?

21 A. In fact, there were six locations. And the map that I was using

22 today perhaps an older version. And on that map, I couldn't find the

23 sixth location which I'm certain I had pointed out. I can repeat those

24 locations once again. It was the Prijedor medical hospital. It was the

25 health centre in Prijedor. The Ljubija mines headquarter offices in

Page 3546

1 Prijedor. The Omarska administrative offices, located adjacent to the

2 Omarska detention camp. Then there was this police station in Prijedor.

3 And I have to admit that the sixth location, I just can't recall it. And

4 I am certain it was six locations, and I can give you those later on.

5 Q. That's fine. I just wasn't sure if it was my notes. It was not

6 two police stations --

7 A. Yes, thank you for reminding me. Omarska police station. So we

8 went to two police stations, one in Prijedor and the second one in

9 Omarska.

10 Q. Thank you. On December 1997, I believe you said was the

11 approximate time in which you became team leader of team 1, and that was

12 the time that you received a legal and lawful warrant to do a search and

13 seizure of four locations in the area that we've commonly referred to as

14 the Prijedor municipality. Correct?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. And approximately three years later, October 27th through the

17 29th, the year 2000, you mentioned that you went on a second search

18 mission or search and seizure mission, but this time, and I'm paraphrasing

19 your testimony, I apologise for doing so, but you correct me if I am

20 wrong, this time you mentioned that "there was no search warrant," but

21 there was an OTP directive. And I'm paraphrasing. Is that accurate or

22 close to what you said earlier this afternoon?

23 A. The directive that I was referring to issued by the Prosecutor

24 under, I believe, Rule 39. So it was a directive issued by the Prosecutor

25 allowing us to search locations in Prijedor.

Page 3547

1 Q. Why wasn't, if you know, a warrant issued in October of 2000 as it

2 was in December of 1997 to do a search and seizure in the area commonly

3 referred to as the Prijedor municipality?

4 A. Before going on this search mission in October 2000, we had

5 requested Judge Rodrigues who was the president of the Trial Chamber

6 trying Kvocka et al, and we had requested a motion a search warrant be

7 issued. But Judge Rodrigues and the Trial Chamber, I believe, dismissed

8 that motion, did not allow it, because the team I am representing was not

9 only trying Kvocka, we are trying the Stakic case and other issues in

10 Prijedor. So we still wanted the search to be conducted. So we went to

11 the Prosecutor, and which, as I said, allows her to issue a directive and

12 which we used for these searches.

13 Q. During the first search prior to going to Prijedor -- strike that.

14 Let me just finish on this thought. I apologise. Can you distinguish

15 which records were obtained through the search and seizure from the 2000

16 search and seizure versus the December 1997 search and seizure?

17 A. Let me first go to the 12th of December 1997 search and seizure

18 mission. During that mission, which was conducted in one day, we started

19 in the morning around about 9.00, and we finished our searches

20 approximately, I would say, 7.00 in the evening at the Prijedor police

21 station, at the municipal building, assembly building, at the SDS offices,

22 and at the Radio Prijedor -- radio station Prijedor offices. So of

23 course, at those four locations, we sought and we seized a lot of material

24 with a limited staff that was available to us to do the searches. It was

25 not possible to sift through material and make a selection there. So

Page 3548

1 obviously, we selected a very large collection which was later properly

2 reviewed when it was brought to the Tribunal.

3 But as far as the second search mission is concerned, from October

4 2000, we went with a limited objective. We went with the decision that we

5 will review the material even if it take three days, that is why the

6 searches were allowed to be conducted from the 27th to 29th. And at the

7 six locations, we recovered -- I have the exact numbers of documents, but

8 we recovered really a very limited number of documents. So that's the

9 difference between the two searches.

10 Q. Can you tell us, since it's relatively easy, if it's not too

11 difficult, can you tell us how many you recovered in December 1997,

12 documents, and how many you recovered in October of 2000?

13 A. I would be only guessing. But I have the -- exact numbers

14 available to me. If only I'd known, because I had the impression that you

15 wouldn't be cross-examining today, otherwise I could have brought those

16 numbers. I can tell you that in the first seizure, that happened in

17 December 1997, but please take it as an estimate, that it was probably a

18 hundred thousand pages. I would say about 40.000 documents from all the

19 four locations. But when it comes to the October search mission, I think

20 not more than 3 to 400 documents, maybe consisting of 5.000 pages.

21 Q. I understand totally that it's an estimate, sir, and we're not

22 going to hold you to those numbers at any time until we have an

23 opportunity to have you do a little further research and refresh your

24 recollection on that. And so I just want -- just to clarify, in December

25 of 1997, is it true that the only location that you yourself personally

Page 3549

1 did a search and seizure was in the municipal building, the municipality

2 municipal building. Correct?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. You did not go into the SUP building or the SDS building or the

5 radio station, Kozarski Vjesnik, correct?

6 A. I did not go to the radio station and Kozarski Vjesnik offices,

7 and I did not go to the SDS offices. However, after concluding the

8 searches at the municipal building, probably by 5.00, I would imagine, I

9 was then asked to report to the police station from where, in fact, for

10 the record -- for record purposes, let me point out the largest collection

11 was seized. I was asked to come and assist the search team there. So I

12 spent about two hours with the search party at the police station in the

13 evening.

14 Q. In your computer data, would you be able to, by clicking certain

15 search bases or data information, would you be able to inventory how many

16 documents came from the radio station and Kozarski Vjesnik?

17 A. Oh yes, certainly, yes.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'll be following up on that, if I may. Did

19 you, during your December 1997 search and seizure, did you obtain the

20 original documents from all four of these locations that you've

21 identified?

22 A. Whatever was seized from these four locations was, in fact, lying

23 around there. So those, I believe, were originals. We did not ask them

24 to provide us copies with what we had seized. We just picked up material

25 that we thought was relevant. So I imagine that that is original.

Page 3550

1 Q. And do you still have, or does the OTP still maintain, those

2 original documents from those four locations during your search and

3 seizure of December 1997?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. And all those documents have been scanned. Correct, to the best

6 of your knowledge?

7 A. No. I'm quite certain that the documentation seized from Prijedor

8 in 1997 is all in the system, yes, scanned.

9 Q. Now, can you tell us if one of the reasons or if you know that the

10 OTP wanted to seize documents from the radio station, Kozarski Vjesnik, in

11 December 1997 was because they wanted to determine what the propaganda was

12 from the people in the territory of Prijedor municipality?

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: I object, relevance, what the purpose of the OTP

14 was.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you explain.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, I'm truly leading up to a point, and it's not

17 as if I'm hiding it, if I may explain and elaborate a little bit. If the

18 OTP has seized all the documents from the radio station, and if they are

19 using a selective group of those documents to show propaganda that may or

20 was instituted by various Serbs during that time period, it is difficult

21 for the Defence to go to the radio station and to Kozarski Vjesnik and

22 find any documents since we believe, respectfully, all the documents were

23 taken away. So to give this Trial Chamber the proper perspective or at

24 least our perspective, we would think that the Kozarski Vjesnik would also

25 show possibly propaganda that has been issued by the SDA, HDZ, and other

Page 3551

1 political parties we have discussed here. To date, we have been unable to

2 because they continuously tell us no such information is available. That's

3 all been taken away. So that's the purpose for it. And it's not meant to

4 obtain any confidential information from him, because I think the witness

5 has established that they actually do have the documents, original or in

6 copy form, and still maintain those documents.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the witness has already stated that

8 these documents are in the possession of the OTP, and I don't know -- I

9 can't identify the sense of an additional question when it's to find out

10 what is still in the possession of the OTP and to have access, this is a

11 different question.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may proceed, Your Honour.

13 Q. With respect to the SDS documents that were seized in December of

14 1997, can you tell us if the documents -- strike that. Can you also

15 describe for us, not at this time, but the specific documents that were

16 seized during your search and seizure of December of 1997?

17 A. Are you talking of the quantity of documents seized from SDS

18 offices?

19 Q. Forgive me for interrupting. I know you said approximately

20 40.000. And we said we're not holding you to that number. All I'm asking

21 is: Is there a mechanism within a 10 or 20 minute period, or you tell me

22 whatever period it is, to punch in a code, a search request, and say here

23 are all the documents we received from the December 1997 search and

24 seizure from SDS headquarters or SDS building?

25 A. Yes, that is possible.

Page 3552

1 Q. How long would it take you to do that for each one of these four

2 locations that you searched on December 1997?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please slow down

4 and make pauses between question and answer.

5 A. Can you please repeat the question.


7 Q. How long would it take you to -- if someone were to ask you,

8 please give me an index of all the documents that were obtained from the

9 December 1997 search and seizure, an index, how long would it take you to

10 say or to find the information that indeed from the municipality,

11 municipal building, we got X amount of documents, and from the SUP, we got

12 Y amount, et cetera?

13 A. First of all, the document collection that was seized in December

14 1997, for records, let me point out, the largest collection came from the

15 police station. Second, municipal building. Third, SDS offices. Fourth,

16 Kozarski Vjesnik and radio station. Now, if this Chamber asks me to

17 provide an index, I would imagine it should not take me more than three to

18 four days. But if the urgency was that it should be done quicker than

19 that, then I think I can go to the ISU section within the OTP and put in a

20 request and maybe they can do it in a day's time. But if you were to ask

21 me to do it, I would imagine it would take me three to four days because

22 that's not the only thing I'm doing. I have to really juggle in between

23 the times I can spend on different projects.

24 Q. I appreciate that. What does IU [sic] stand for?

25 A. The information systems unit.

Page 3553

1 Q. And the same question with respect to the items, although less in

2 amount, I think you said approximately, although we're not holding you to

3 these numbers, 3 to 400 documents, approximately 5.000 pages, the same can

4 be provided by either yourself or the IU unit --

5 A. ISU unit.

6 Q. With respect to those six locations from the search and seizure in

7 October of 2000, correct?

8 A. I think as far as the second search mission is concerned, that can

9 be done by me and much quicker because of the limited number of documents

10 that were seized.

11 Q. Okay. Let me now turn to the first search and seizure that you

12 did. Were you assisted by any personnel other than the OTP and team

13 members during this first search and seizure? And what I'm looking for,

14 if I may ask a leading question or specific on this just for the purposes

15 of expediting it, December 1997, were you assisted by any members of the

16 Republic of Bosnia or the AID group, or unit referred to as AID?

17 A. No.

18 Q. During the second search and seizure, were you assisted at any

19 time by any other entity other than the personnel working for the OTP

20 through the ICTY?

21 A. Again, if you're referring to the federation forces, no. But RS

22 forces, they helped us.

23 Q. Is it your testimony that the federation forces did not help you

24 in either December 1997 or October 27th through the 29th, 2000. Correct?

25 A. I think that's correct, yes.

Page 3554












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3555

1 Q. Let me ask you if I may, to turn to a different subject quickly,

2 and we may get to it at a later time, you discussed the interview process

3 that is conducted with the witnesses. And just trying to focus you on

4 that issue if I may. On page 37, line 21 of your testimony earlier today,

5 one of the procedures for taking a statement from the witness is I believe

6 you said at that page number and line, again, page 37, line 21, said that

7 we would ask the witnesses to give "brief answers." Again, Mr. Inayat, I

8 just don't want to represent that's what you said. I believe you did, but

9 if you didn't, clarify it for the record. That's my notes and my

10 recollection on that.

11 A. Maybe I did not phrase it properly. What I meant was that

12 sometimes when you put a question to a witness, the witness tends to give

13 very lengthy response, which is very difficult for the translator, the

14 interpreter working on the interview, to keep in mind. So with that in

15 mind, I said that normally we tell our witnesses if they have lengthy

16 responses they need to break that information up into smaller pieces. I

17 didn't mean that they shall give a summary of the question, summarised

18 response.

19 Q. Then at another portion of your testimony, I think you said we

20 would take down their statements verbatim and actually then I think you

21 corrected the verbatim and said we would take down verbatim what the

22 interpreter would say. Correct?

23 A. Precisely. Because I don't understand the B/C/S language, so I

24 have to rely on the --

25 Q. Fair. And the answers are as good as the interpreters are. Would

Page 3556

1 that be something you would agree with me on?

2 A. As a non-B/C/S speaker, we have to rely on what the interpreters

3 are telling us.

4 Q. Were you doing the questioning of the witnesses?

5 A. Invariably. The interpreters are not supposed to put questions.

6 Q. I'm not suggesting that they did. I apologise if that was the

7 inference. Did you have a prepared questionnaire that you would ask each

8 and every different witness that you would interview from time to time?

9 A. I don't recall ever using a questionnaire, a written questionnaire

10 for interviewing witnesses. I've used a questionnaire for interviewing

11 accused, but never witnesses. That has, at least, not been my way of

12 practice.

13 Q. Do you know if other investigators or persons on your team who

14 have taken statements from witnesses, whether or not they have used

15 prepared questionnaires or questions to certain witnesses?

16 A. I don't think so. There were several investigators working in my

17 team and this thing has never come up where investigators have indicated

18 that they are using questionnaires for interviews.

19 Q. How do you, as an investigator, know what to ask each and every

20 witness? First, if you could describe for us how do you know that the

21 witness will be relevant to either this case or any other case in the

22 ICTY?

23 A. Well, we have access to a large commission of expert report which

24 was put together in 1993 and 1994. And the commission of experts

25 appointed by the United Nations. They requested several governments in

Page 3557

1 Europe and in Asia to interview refugees living in their countries, and

2 those interviews were done by police officers in those respective

3 countries. So that was a starting point for us, for our investigations.

4 For example, for Prijedor, I know, again, I don't want to give an exact

5 figure, but I know hundreds of witnesses were interviewed by policemen in

6 Scandinavia and Germany and Holland as part of the commission of experts

7 report. So that was a starting point. That's how we found out our main

8 witnesses.

9 Q. Of all the witnesses that you've interviewed, on how many

10 occasions -- or that you know, witness statements in connection with the

11 Prijedor municipality, since becoming a team leader on December of 1997,

12 how many occasions did you find that the Prosecutor would be either

13 present, and if you could distinguish when he isn't, or when the

14 Prosecutor was actually asking questions of the witnesses?

15 A. When you say Prosecutor, you mean the trial attorneys working on

16 the team?

17 Q. Correct.

18 A. Okay. In most of the interviews that I personally have done, and

19 it's difficult for me to give an exact number, I would say something like

20 70 to 80, I have conducted the interviews on my own. But as we are

21 getting closer to trial, there have been occasions when trial attorneys

22 working on this case have accompanied investigators, and I don't know if

23 you asked me this also, whether the questioning is done by trial

24 attorneys. In the interviews that I have conducted, I can say that

25 invariably, I have put the questions. There must have been rare occasions

Page 3558

1 when trial attorney present in the room may have asked me to ask

2 additional questions just to clarify things. But as investigator, I have

3 put those questions.

4 Q. Are you as an investigator, you don't have any mandate to get

5 information from a witness which would be in favour of or against any

6 individual accused. Correct?

7 A. I'm sorry, I didn't follow the question.

8 Q. You as an investigator, are you an independent person who merely

9 seeks to obtain information from either a victim, or someone related to

10 the victim, in connection with events that may have occurred in a certain

11 area? You're not someone who is attempting to obtain information only in

12 favour of one side against the other, are you?

13 A. To be honest, I don't know if I really followed what you're

14 saying. But there have been occasions when I have sought witnesses out,

15 and there have been occasions when witnesses have given me information

16 that tends to be in favour of the accused. And that has been written

17 down, which probably is called Rule 68. And that has been identified.

18 Q. I'm not denying that. Please don't read too much into my

19 questioning, although I understand that it's late. Do you know how many

20 items or were you involved -- strike that. Sir, were you involved at all

21 in compiling the Rule 68, otherwise known as exculpatory materials, for

22 this case that we're here on behalf of Dr. Stakic?

23 A. I personally have not been involved, but the taskings have come

24 from me to the investigators that that has to be done.

25 Q. Did you verify, being the person that was actually involved in the

Page 3559

1 search and seizures both in December of 1997 and October of 2000, did you

2 go back and verify from the materials that you received and said: "Yes,

3 I'm confident as the team leader this is all the 68 exculpatory materials

4 that we have in our possession in connection with any of the issues

5 relating to Dr. Stakic?"

6 A. I don't think that's part of my job description.

7 Q. Did you do it or didn't you do it?

8 A. I didn't do it.

9 Q. Did anyone from your team -- I apologise. I keep forgetting that

10 we are getting it translated in three different languages. My apologies

11 to the interpreters and to the Court and to the witness. Did you, sir,

12 first tell me how many members are in your team if you can. I don't know

13 what's confidential or not. To the extent -- I'd rather have you err on

14 the side of telling me it's confidential, than saying something that we

15 would have an issue with later. Can you tell me how many members are on

16 your team?

17 A. I don't think there's a problem telling that.

18 Q. I don't either.

19 A. You see, it can vary from time to time. When I joined the team,

20 there was two investigators. There have been in the year 2000, even 2001

21 when we had nine investigators, now we are back to seven. So it varies

22 from time to time.

23 Q. When you say your team, sir, does that include any of the

24 attorneys who would be participating in any of the trials before this

25 Tribunal and these Chambers here?

Page 3560

1 A. No. Although trial attorneys are assigned to certain teams, but

2 they come under directly the senior trial attorneys and not the team

3 leader.

4 Q. Is Dominic Smyth in your team?

5 A. He used to be in team one at a certain point.

6 Q. What time did he -- if I'm allowed to ask, or if not I'll withdraw

7 the question.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: My objection is just relevance. I think we're

9 getting pretty far afield.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll precede, if I may, on a different point.


12 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll come back to that later.

13 Q. Can you tell us who of your team members made the decision as to

14 which documents constitutes exculpatory materials pursuant to Rule 68?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would object that this is beyond the scope of

16 direct examination. This is not the witness that conducted Rule 68

17 searches. I don't think that's the subject of his testimony. If there is

18 a hearing regarding whether the Prosecutor's office in this case has

19 complied with the Rule 68, it would make sense to have the witnesses, who

20 were actually involved in that, testify. It's beyond the scope of his

21 direct examination.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I disagree. I think the leader of a team should

23 know about this. Therefore, please proceed.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

25 Q. Mr. Inayat, can you answer that for us, do you know who they were?

Page 3561

1 A. Can you, once again, just repeat the question.

2 Q. Who were the members of your team who compiled the exculpatory

3 materials that were given in the Dr. Stakic case, pursuant to Rule 68?

4 A. The day-to-day administrative working of the investigation side is

5 conducted by an investigator called Sue Ellen Taylor. I have to refer

6 this question to her to find out the exact answer.

7 Q. Prior to conducting interviews with witnesses, do any of your team

8 members, including yourself, meet with the Prosecutor?

9 A. With the trial attorneys within the team, you mean?

10 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. Specifically that. But I hesitate because the

11 trial attorneys change as do the team members, as do -- does a lot of

12 different functions so. The trial attorneys at that time, I would, I

13 guess...

14 A. Yeah. Most of the time, when the missions are planned, the team

15 leader makes out a list of people that have to be interviewed during a

16 mission. And under our OTP procedures, the senior trial attorneys have to

17 be made aware of any outgoing missions. And just to make sure that the

18 senior trial attorney and the team leader are aware of this mission, there

19 is consultation about the mission plan. The senior trial attorney in my

20 team, and in my experience, has never sat down with me to discuss what

21 evidence the witnesses will talk about or what the questioning is supposed

22 to be. I'm personally not aware of any such development.

23 Q. You, being the team leader of team one, do you help and assist the

24 other members of your team, whether two, nine, or seven in number, meaning

25 the size, do you give them an indication of the types of questions you're

Page 3562

1 looking for or areas that you want to cover?

2 A. Most investigators that I've worked with have come into this

3 Tribunal with 10 to 15 years of experience, sometimes maybe less. But

4 mainly 10 to 15 years of experience. I've never felt the need to discuss

5 the evidence of each and every witness. However, whenever it comes to

6 important witnesses, such as political leaders, such as police officers,

7 such as people with a military background, either I have been involved in

8 their interviews myself. Or when the staff working under me, when they go

9 on such missions, we have a discussion on these important witnesses.

10 Q. Do you -- or did you, before interviewing certain witnesses,

11 review the indictment against the accused Dr. Stakic in this case?

12 A. I'm personally not aware if I have interviewed any witnesses

13 specifically for Dr. Stakic's case.

14 Q. Did you review his indictment at any time, of the various forms

15 that it took? It's currently the fourth amended indictment I believe, but

16 I'm not limiting it to just the fourth amended indictment.

17 A. Yes, I have reviewed it. I've looked at it. I've read it.

18 Q. Do each of your team members look at it at any time?

19 A. They are supposed to. They are duty bound.

20 Q. Why is that? What's the duty telling them to review the

21 indictment prepared by the OTP in connection with the accused?

22 A. To know the facts of the case.

23 Q. The facts that are disputed or the facts that are undisputed?

24 Which do they look for?

25 A. I don't know what to say on this. But what I certainly know is

Page 3563

1 that all investigators, they read the indictment and that they have the

2 indictment just to be aware of what has been alleged.

3 Q. Let me ask you: From having experience since 1980 with the police

4 and your background and schooling and having worked here as a team leader

5 since 1997, you don't take the indictment and accept the facts that the

6 Prosecutor prepare in the indictment and say, "Yes, those facts are

7 undisputed. All we are going to do is go out and find the evidence." In

8 fact, you say "I just want to find out the truth. Is this really true?"

9 Or tell me how you do it?

10 A. I totally agree with you.

11 Q. Which one?

12 A. I totally agree with you --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please make pauses

14 between question and answer.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: I, again, apologise, Your Honour, to the

16 interpreters and to the Court and the witness.

17 Q. Thank you. Sorry.

18 A. I totally agree with you that even though I've read the indictment

19 several times, and if I were to go and interview a witness, I wouldn't

20 stop him if he were to give me evidence which was inconsistent with the

21 indictment. I would never stop him. I will just take what the witness is

22 saying.

23 Q. You don't have a legal degree, correct, sir?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 Q. I know you got a masters in international relations, and I respect

Page 3564

1 that very much. In your testimony on line -- I mean on page 42, page 14,

2 you mentioned a word that I think has a legal -- or I'm going to ask you.

3 When you said most people were deported from such and such an area, or

4 deportation, are you telling us today that that's a legal opinion, or is

5 that just a layman's way of describing something that perhaps you learned

6 or gleaned from the statements, discussions with the Prosecutor, or any

7 scenario you might want to envision?

8 A. When I talked of the railway station in Trnopolje which is, as I

9 said, about 200 metres from Trnopolje camp, and having read witness

10 statements and also have interviewed some of them, most of them talk about

11 the deportations. They said that they were deported from the camp by

12 train during the initial weeks of the camp. And so I've picked up this

13 word basically from what witnesses have told me.

14 Q. Speaking of those statements, you stated that you take down

15 statements or you try to, obviously with certain limitations. And I, by

16 no means, mean to be disrespectful to you, but you take down statements,

17 verbatim answers, in essence, is what you said. My question in connection

18 with that is why, if you know, why don't you have a tape recorder during

19 your interview process with the witnesses that you're taking statements

20 of?

21 A. I know that in 1997, this thing was very seriously being

22 considered. But I wasn't privy to the final discussions which were held

23 in which it was decided that that's not feasible. So we just kept on with

24 the laptops and writing the statements down.

25 Q. Who decided that?

Page 3565

1 A. I think you'll have to ask from the senior management in the OTP.

2 Q. You don't know.

3 A. No, I don't know.

4 Q. At any time, sir, as an investigator with the 22 years of

5 experience that you have both in Pakistan and here at the ICTY, since 1980

6 I believe you said, had you at any time given a thought to say, it would

7 be fair and it would be neutral for everyone, including the Trial Chamber,

8 to hear the questioner ask the questions and to hear the response being

9 given by the witnesses? And it would actually take away the method of

10 having you go through the process of typing down the statement, preparing

11 the statement, having the statement written down, and then translated.

12 Did you ever contemplate that?

13 A. Personally, it may be what you're saying is right. But as I said,

14 I wasn't privy to the consultations where they must have considered all

15 factors before deciding not to have these recorded interviews.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: I know I'm running out of time. If I may, just for

17 the record, and I know that we have an agreement on this, just reserve my

18 right. And I want to thank Mr. Inayat for his answers today and for

19 staying as late as he did. I appreciate it very much. We have no further

20 questions at this time, Your Honour, with the understanding that I may

21 come back, but ever so limited, on some of these issues. Thank you.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then the witness is excused for

23 today. And probably we come back to you at a further point in time when

24 the Defence so wants. It's, of course, for you to decide when it's

25 appropriate.

Page 3566












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3567

1 Any other observations for today?

2 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you, Witness.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Mr. President.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the trial stands adjourned until Monday,

7 9.00.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

9 6.26 p.m., to be reconvened on

10 Monday, the 27th day of May, 2002,

11 at 9.00 a.m.