1 Friday, 24 May 200
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.28 p.m.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Could you please call the
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T,
9 the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, everybody. Could we have the
11 appearances, please.
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon. Nicholas Koumjian with Ruth Karper
13 for the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Branko Lukic with Mr. John Ostojic for
16 the Defence.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May we --
18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, before we begin, I just want to inform
19 the Trial Chamber, in light of some of the comments of the Trial Chamber
20 yesterday and in today's conference, there is a video that we were
21 planning on showing with the next witness, who actually took it, of the
22 Kozarac area taken last summer, if the Court, Trial Chamber, wanted to
23 show that to the witness, it's available today.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for the information. We should
25 immediately proceed with the cross-examination.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 WITNESS: WITNESS P [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued].
5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness P. Once again, my name is John Ostojic.
6 Thank you for coming and we'll try to be brief this afternoon.
7 Sir, I'd like to focus your attention on the Trnopolje camp as
8 you've described it. I'd like to ask you, were you ever at the Trnopolje
9 camp prior to May of 1992?
10 A. I knew Trnopolje. Sometimes I would transport some construction
11 materials from a shop, and also for the 1st of May celebrations, various
12 sports events would take place there. And this is how I am familiar with
13 the area of Trnopolje.
14 Q. I understand from your testimony that you were brought to
15 Trnopolje camp for a couple of days starting on May 26th of 1992. Were
16 you at Trnopolje the May 1st prior to May 26th, 1992, for purposes that
17 you just described in your answer, or was it the year before?
18 A. It may have been a year before, because I went there for the 1st
19 of May celebrations then.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Trnopolje a year prior to May
21 of 1992 or thereabouts, can you describe for us how it was different in
22 appearance, if you can, how it was different in appearance from -- and
23 we're trying to limit the question to the actual structures of the camp.
24 How was it different in May of 1991 to that which you saw in May of 1992
25 when you were detained there?
1 A. I am sure that the school existed also the year before, and also
2 during the time when the camp was there. As for the cafe that I also
3 mentioned across the road from the Trnopolje hall building, the cafe was
4 also there for a long time. The large cinema hall itself was also there
5 for a long time, and now whether it was refurbished a year ago or some
6 time ago I can't really tell you. The shop was also there all the time.
7 I don't know whether it was bigger or smaller before than at the time when
8 I was there.
9 Q. Can you help us and tell us, if you wish, whether or not there
10 were any homes immediately adjacent to the property that we now refer to a
11 the Trnopolje camp?
12 A. Well, across the road from the shop that I mentioned, there were
13 some houses there. And as you went on towards Kozarac, further up from
14 the school towards Kozarac, this area was inhabited quite densely on both
15 sides of the Trnopolje/Kozarac road.
16 Q. Is it fair to state that the Trnopolje camp was actually in the
17 middle of a residential housing community, if you know?
18 A. Well, one could say that they were on the outskirts of the areas
19 inhabited by people, because there was also the railroad and the fish
20 pond. So that would be the outer boundary of the inhabited area of
22 Q. Tell us, if you will, in 1992, May, the two or so days that you
23 were there, whether there was a fence surrounding the Trnopolje camp?
24 A. Partially yes, and partially no.
25 Q. Get back to that in a moment. Tell us in 1991, or whenever you
1 were there prior to May of 1992, whether there was a fence surrounding the
2 Trnopolje camp?
3 A. I think that the fence existed in 1991. It fenced off a section
4 of the Trnopolje/Kozarac Road and the Trnopolje/Prijedor, the old road,
5 Trnopolje/Prijedor, the intersection there, as far as I can remember.
6 Q. Yes, thank you. And I recognise that it's been some time, ten
7 years or so, since you were there. But if you could help us, is it fair
8 to state that the fence that was, if I can call it partially, surrounding
9 the Trnopolje camp was the same fence in 1991, and prior to that, 1990, if
10 you had visited then, as it was in 1992, May, when you were detained
12 A. I can't recall the details. I do know that there were some
13 fenced-in areas before and after May 1992.
14 Q. Do you know, sir, where the checkpoint was at the Trnopolje camp,
15 how far away or how close in proximity to the entrance of the camp it was?
16 A. The access to the camp was from the Kozarac side, from the
17 Prijedor side, and to the south from the railway station. So the point
18 that I myself saw, the checkpoint, I was able to see the checkpoint in the
19 direction of Prijedor while I was in the camp. The other camps, I was not
20 interested in. I wasn't moving around in the camp, and I didn't see them.
21 Q. Finally, with respect to the fencing, if I may, is it fair to say
22 that there was not a fence at Trnopolje camp which surrounded the entire
23 camp? Or as best as you can, if you can, help us in understanding the
24 dimensions of the fence, if it was on the south, east, north, west, or all
25 those borders?
1 A. I can't tell you that. I will tell you, however, that during my
2 stay there, and before I left the camp in Trnopolje, there was no fence
3 that would enclose the entire perimeter of the Trnopolje camp.
4 Q. Can you estimate for us -- strike that. Do you know, sir, if the
5 Trnopolje camp or property premises were used in 1991 and/or 1992 to house
6 Serbian refugees from the area of Croatia?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Let me move to a different -- slightly different area. In
9 discussing your arrival to Trnopolje camp on May 26, 1992, I believe on
10 page 43, line 20 of your transcript and your testimony two days ago, you
11 mentioned that you slept in your own vehicle. Correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us or give us an estimate, sir, how many other
14 persons, while they were detained in Trnopolje camp, actually brought
15 their vehicles and slept in their vehicles during the time period,
16 obviously, that you were there, two or so days?
17 A. There may have been several dozens of cars, several dozens of
18 tractors, and several trucks. And also some tents that were set up next
19 to the tractor trailers or perhaps were just standing on the meadow in
20 front of the school and in front of the Trnopolje community hall.
21 Q. You also mentioned to us, briefly, and I'm summarising it, and
22 correct me if I am wrong, that after approximately nine days your wife
23 left Trnopolje camp, and that she, although your father and your brothers
24 remained, she would go to Trnopolje camp every other day in order to
25 provide for your family and others, possibly, milk, food, cheese, dairy
1 products, et cetera. Do you recall that testimony? It's page 48, line 19
2 through 20, for the record.
3 A. Yes, that's what I said.
4 Q. Just to refresh your recollection on that, you also were asked by
5 the Office of the Prosecutor whether or not there was a risk or danger to
6 your wife assisting, and I believe on page 48, line 19, the question was
7 as follows: "Was it dangerous for your wife to go to Trnopolje?" Line 20
8 page 48, answer: "It was dangerous. Any form of movement was dangerous.
9 There were many drunk soldiers along the road who were not subject to any
10 control or command. There were cases of rapes, women, of murders of
11 people passing by. It was always a risk."
12 Do you remember giving that testimony, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I just have a couple follow-up questions on that if you don't
15 mind. When you say "many drunk soldiers" on line 21 of that answer, what
16 do you mean by that?
17 A. That's what I heard from my wife. Any number higher than one is
18 many. You can imagine how frightening it is for a woman to pass by such
19 people who were drunk and asking: "What do you want, do you have any
20 money." That was the fear that women couldn't describe, and they actually
21 preferred not to talk about it and not to talk about such occurrences.
22 Q. I most certainly understand, sir. My question, however, is were
23 you ever told by your wife or others any specific number which would
24 quantify for us the amount that was mentioned "many drunk soldiers"?
25 A. No, I don't know the number.
1 Q. You also, sir, with respect to the answer that you provided two
2 days ago on page 48, lines 20 through 23, where you stated that "there
3 were many drunk soldiers along the road who were not subject to any
4 control or command." What do you mean, sir, when you say "who were not
5 subject to any control or command"?
6 A. Well, a normal soldier who is under some kind of control shouldn't
7 be drunk while on duty, and he would have to abide by the normal rules of
8 conduct, in accordance with the regulations when communicating with
9 civilians, which was not always the case.
10 Q. You mentioned also an instance where there were drunk soldiers on
11 the road from Omarska to Manjaca. Do you remember that?
12 A. I remember that.
13 Q. In that instance, sir, do you remember how many drunken soldiers
14 are we referring about?
15 A. When the bus stopped in a Serb village called Hankola, three or
16 four such soldiers entered our bus and beat us on the bus where I was. So
17 I can assure you that there were four soldiers, three or four soldiers,
18 who entered the bus in Hankola in front of the cafe and beat people who
19 were transported from Omarska to Manjaca.
20 Q. So just to the record is clear, this was an instance where you saw
21 drunk soldiers again, taking part in certain activities that you've
22 previously described from the time in Omarska while you were going to
23 Manjaca. Correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Were these soldiers that you saw also, as you
1 described the soldiers that were dangerous during the Trnopolje events
2 that we just talked about, were they also not subject to any control or
4 A. Well, in my opinion, it was a willful act by these people.
5 Q. And isn't it correct, sir, that it was the willful act of these
6 individuals that you're talking about. Correct?
7 A. In this case that I experienced, I can say that it was the case.
8 Q. Staying with this theme for a moment, if I may, in Omarska when
9 you were detained in Omarska camp during the Petrovdan celebration July
10 11th and July 12th, 1992, that you described, and the bonfire, if you
11 remember that testimony -- do you remember that?
12 A. I spoke about the big tyre from a Caterpillar vehicle. I wasn't
13 talking about any pyre.
14 Q. Fair enough. It was a fire that was started with a tyre or large
15 tyres as you've described it. I'm just trying to direct you to that day
16 or that date and that place, because I have some questions in connection
17 with that. So, the evidence will stand and I apologise if I've misstated
18 what you've earlier testified on that issue. All I want today is have you
19 focus on the July 11th and July 12th facts that you shared with us in
20 connection with that Petrovdan celebration. Fair enough?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On page 50 of your testimony, you described that on July 11th,
23 there was a lot of rejoicing and singing. Let me get the page number. Do
24 you remember that?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Now, also, sir, can you tell us whether or not there was a lot of
2 drinking by the people who were either securing or providing some sort of
3 security at the Omarska camp on that July 11th and 12th, namely, either
4 the military personnel or the guards that were previously described? Were
5 they drinking?
6 A. I didn't see any of them with a bottle in his hand. But on the
7 basis of the songs that they were singing and the laughter and the events
8 that occurred later around the white house, one could establish quite
9 clearly that these people were, in fact, drunk. To what degree and what
10 the actual number of people was, it was impossible to determine that with
11 total security from that place.
12 Q. One moment.
13 If I may be permitted to read from the statement that you provided
14 to the OTP on August 26th through the 30th, signed on September 1st, 1994,
15 page 19, first full paragraph, which starts one quarter of the page down.
16 If the Court would permit me to read that paragraph. I'm going to read
17 the entire paragraph and if the Court feels I need to stop at any point,
18 because my point stops at halfway, but I'll proceed. Page 19 of your
19 statement, sir: "On Petrovdan, the Serbs were shooting more than usual.
20 They were drinking a lot. Petrovdan is celebrated on the evening of the
21 day before. This is the celebration started on the 11th and continued on
22 all through the next day. To the Serbs it didn't mean anything to pull a
23 prisoner out from the white house and put him on the fire. During the
24 daytime, nothing much happened. They were, in general, very drunk. It
25 was during the night on the 11th going on to the 12th that they were
1 taking out people, beating them, and throwing them on the fire. It was
2 mainly the guards who would do anything with the prisoners. Those guards
3 did what they wanted. On the evening of the 12th, there was no fire.
4 When they threw people on the fire, they were more dead than alive. They
5 would beat the prisoners almost dead and then throw them on the fire. I
6 think approximately ten people thrown on the fire. At night, it is
7 difficult to see exactly, but there were screams of the people when they
8 were thrown on the fire. I stood at the window for ten minutes, and
9 during that time, I saw one person thrown on the fire. I heard the
10 screams of other people. I do not know who the other people were, nor do
11 I know the names of the guards who threw people on the fire. People who
12 were in rooms 26 and 15 would be able to say much more about the white
13 house and what happened there because their rooms were almost right
14 opposite the white house."
15 Sir, does this help refresh your recollection that, in fact, the
16 guards and the personnel at the camp on or about Petrovdan were not only
17 drunk and were not only drinking a lot, but as you say in the fourth or
18 fifth sentence, they were "very drunk"?
19 A. Well, whether they were drunk or very drunk, the difference, as
20 far as I'm concerned, is not really great. Now, whether I said drunk,
21 very drunk, or slightly drunk, everything above two or three pomels ^ is
22 considered to be drunk by law.
23 Q. Nonetheless, they were drunk. The guards who were throwing the
24 prisoners, as you've described, were intoxicated. Correct?
25 A. That doesn't give them the right to throw people into the fire.
1 Q. And sir, I agree with you on that point. However, all I'm trying
2 to understand, from a factual standpoint, is it correct that the guards,
3 or the personnel, that were throwing the detainees, however wrong it may
4 be, that they were, in fact, drunk. Correct?
5 A. Can we say that they were half drunk?
6 Q. If I may just ask the Court for just some instruction. I'm not
7 sure to respond to the witness. I'm not sure that I got a responsive
8 answer to my question, if the Court believes that I have, I will move on?
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the answer was exhaustive.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
11 Q. Similarly to the drunken soldiers that you experienced or that
12 your wife was put at risk for during the Trnopolje visits she made to your
13 father and two brothers and similarly to the drunken soldiers you
14 described to us, during the Omarska to Manjaca, were these drunken
15 personnel, guards or soldiers, also not subject to any control or command?
16 A. I cannot evaluate that. If there had been any proper control, I
17 don't think that there would be any alcohol in the workplace. In my
18 opinion, they were able to decide themselves what to do and how to act.
19 Q. You also, if I may just turn the subject a little bit, turn to
20 another subject, you also described additional prisoners or prisoners,
21 detainees, who were at greater risk at Omarska. At one point I think you
22 mentioned that prisoners who had money and prisoners who were politically
23 involved were at greater risk. Do you remember that testimony?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. With respect to the --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could we please have the interpreters that we
2 have once again on channel 4 the English translation.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now?
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, okay. We may proceed.
5 MR. OSTOJIC:
6 Q. Sir, do you know, with respect to the prisoners who were
7 identified or isolated and at risk because of their personal wealth, do
8 you know if these crimes that were committed upon them were random acts of
9 a criminal element who sought to rob and steal personally from certain
10 detainees at the Omarska camp?
11 A. I can't tell that.
12 Q. Do you know, sir, if there were any acts of personal vendetta by
13 any of the guards or personnel at the camp, against any of the detainees?
14 A. Well, in my opinion, all the police officers that were detained in
15 the camp disappeared from the camp in unknown circumstances, and the
16 assumption is that they were all killed. In many such cases, these were
17 acts of revenge towards the police officers on the part of the camp
18 leadership. People also who were higher up from the camp, the leadership
19 of the municipality, and we may go on. The region, republic, Yugoslavia,
20 it was a well-organised chain of liquidations of individuals and groups.
21 Q. I understand. Let me ask you this: Do you know of any instances
22 where a person or individual detainee was killed as a result of jealousy
23 between any of the people watching the detainee and that individual
24 detainee, whether it be that he was wealthy, owned a restaurant, or was a
25 police officer or politically active? Do you know of any such instance,
2 A. I don't know whether it was the idea of individuals to kill these
3 people. The fact is that the people were killed. I don't know who made
4 decisions in the camp, why such decisions were made. I don't know that
5 either. What the criterion was, according to which these people were
6 selected, but we could assume these were the rich people, the police
7 officers, active-duty servicemen, not to go into any more details. So at
8 any rate, the leadership of the camp in Omarska would have to give the
9 criteria according to which they worked, although I assume that they do
10 not remember anything.
11 Q. Let me direct your attention, if I may, to your statement given to
12 the OTP on August 26th through the 30th, 1994, signed on September 1st,
13 1994, page 23, first full paragraph. If I may read this in connection
14 with the issue that we were just discussing, Your Honour. Page 23, first
15 full paragraph from your statement, sir: "Dedo Crnalic was one of those
16 killed in the morning. He was one of the more wealthy people from
17 Prijedor. He had a good restaurant. He was a good tailor. One of the
18 Serbs probably killed him because of jealousy. I saw him killed. He was
19 stabbed in the stomach, and then they cleaned their knives on his shirt
20 after they killed him."
21 Sir, with respect to that statement, as you sit here, and just
22 tell us what your testimony is, was Dedo Crnalic killed possibly because
23 of jealousy, probably because of jealousy, or you just don't know?
24 A. I would have to ask the person who killed him why he did it, what
25 the true reason for it was.
1 Q. Approximately two and a half years after being detained at Omarska
2 and giving the statement to the OTP, why at that time, sir, did you think
3 that the person who killed Mr. Dedo Crnalic did it as a result -- probably
4 killed him -- because of jealousy?
5 A. Well, would things have changed if he had been killed for some
6 other reason?
7 Q. Let me ask you if I may, sir -- to change the subject, the topic,
8 please, with respect to your initial presentation or arrival at Manjaca
9 camp, you informed us that they at that time also asked for your
10 identification papers and essentially registered you. And I'm
11 paraphrasing, sir. If I'm incorrect on this, please clarify for me. I
12 don't mean to incorrectly paraphrase your testimony.
13 A. Yes, it was more or less like that.
14 Q. You also told us, sir, that while you were detained in Omarska
15 that you were also essentially registered and the personnel there asked
16 for your identification papers, et cetera. Do you remember that
18 A. Yes, I remember it.
19 Q. My question is directly this: Did you show the personnel at
20 Manjaca camp the same identification papers that you showed the personnel
21 at Omarska camp?
22 A. Well, it was the only papers we had, we showed.
23 Q. Right. My question, though, is it fair to conclude, then, that
24 after showing your identification papers at Omarska camp, that you
25 actually retained and kept those identification papers with you during
1 your entire stay at Omarska, and then presented those same identification
2 papers to the personnel that asked you for them at the Manjaca camp,
3 several months or whatever the time period is? Would that be fair?
4 A. Well, most of the people kept their papers from the people in the
5 Omarska camp. We were definitely stripped of our ID when we arrived at
6 the Manjaca camp.
7 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you do not have or you were ever
8 returned your personal identification cards after your detention at the
9 Manjaca camp?
10 A. My ID card came in a big box, a box containing documents, to
11 Karlovac in the reception centre there. And there everyone could look for
12 his ID. Not all of the documents were found. I'm speaking of my
13 particular case.
14 Q. Yes, and that's what we're interested in. Is it fair to state
15 that all the documentation that you had with you upon your arrival to the
16 Omarska camp was actually retained by you and brought to the Manjaca camp
17 with you? Correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you at any time, sir, while discussing the tragic events of
20 the spring and summer of 1992, did you ever discuss with any other
21 detainees whether there were drunken soldiers at any time at the Keraterm
23 A. No, I didn't.
24 Q. Can you tell us if you know, sir, what, if anything, prevented the
25 guards or the personnel at the Omarska camp, while you were detained
1 there, from actually killing each and every one of the detainees there?
2 A. I didn't see.
3 Q. But as we know, and I don't want to be presumptuous, all the
4 detainees were not killed. Correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I don't remember your specific testimony on this, and don't want
7 to guess.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: If the Court will permit me.
9 Q. At one point, I believe you estimated from the number of detainees
10 at Omarska camp, how many do you believe were actually killed during the
11 time period that you were at the Omarska camp?
12 A. I don't know the exact number. Well, between a thousand and 2.000
13 people would be the assessment. I don't know how true that is. History
14 will tell.
15 Q. If I may just elaborate on that, sir, how many people were
16 actually detained in Omarska during the time period that you were there?
17 A. Well, we didn't know until we were actually released. When we
18 were released, they said that a thousand five hundred people went to
19 Manjaca, and approximately the same number to Trnopolje. And about 150
20 were left to stay there for another week or so. And when the Omarska camp
21 was closed so as to show the international organisations that they had
22 beds to sleep in, that they had enough food, and then when we were
23 transferred to Manjaca a day or two after that, the Omarska camp was
24 visited by international organisations, the UNHCR and many others. And
25 there, they saw our fairly normal state of affairs while they were
1 visiting it. Every prisoner had a bed, had enough food, was clean. They
2 were sitting in front of the kitchen, so that was the picture that the
3 world was able to see, in connection with the Omarska camp. At the
4 moment, one of the prisoners, I don't know in what language he used to
5 tell a foreigner, a foreign employee, that this was only -- a it was a
6 wrong picture that some of the people had been taken to Trnopolje, to
7 Manjaca, and then we were visited by these very same people in Manjaca,
8 and they told us that they were given this information at the Omarska
10 So about three to three and a half thousand people. The number
11 varied. People would come. People would disappear. I don't know what
12 the exact figures. I think that the people who managed the camps have
13 these figures recorded somewhere.
14 Q. All I'm interested, sir, is to know directly, during your
15 experience at the Omarska camp, how many did you personally see or know of
16 of detainees who were actually killed?
17 A. Well, if I say that someone was taken away and never returned, I
18 don't know to say about him, whether he is to be proclaimed dead or
20 Q. If the Court permits, and if the witness, you can classify them in
21 any way you wish. I just want to know how you classify them and what that
22 number is, from your perspective directly, sir.
23 A. Well, at least 50 people, to the best of my knowledge. A number
24 of them I could see dead, and another number would disappear in the
25 direction of the white house.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 Witness P, on behalf of the Defence, we would like to thank you
3 for your cooperation and your testimony. Again, we apologise that you've
4 had to wait over a couple of days. Thank you very much, sir.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any re-examination?
6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just one or two questions.
7 Re-examined by Mr. Koumjian:
8 Q. Witness P, you talked about yourself having been stopped at some
9 checkpoints prior to the attack on Kozarac which I believe was exactly ten
10 years ago today. You mentioned two checkpoints, Omarska and a second
11 checkpoint. I believe you said Tunjica. Is that correct?
12 A. Tunjica, yes.
13 Q. Do you know who was manning those two checkpoints?
14 A. At one point in time -- in any case, the police was always
15 present. And very frequently, there was a military vehicle there with
16 people wearing military uniforms at those checkpoints.
17 Q. Do you know if these were people of one ethnicity or not?
18 A. Well, since the takeover of power in Banja Luka, it was obvious
19 that these were only Serb ethnicities in the police and in the army.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: No further questions on redirect.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness P, sorry that I have to ask once again a
25 question you already answered. It's for the purpose of the legal
1 assessment, go into some detail. On page 49 of the transcript, line 20,
2 following you were asked: "During your questioning, were you beaten at
3 that time?" It was Omarska camp. Answer, line 21: "During the
4 interrogation, there was a civilian standing. I had to sit on a chair
5 wrong way around so that my back would be free for beatings. During the
6 interrogation, there was a civilian standing behind me. A young person in
7 uniform was questioning me. The other one was taking down notes. He
8 wasn't interfering in the conversation. And when the person interrogating
9 was dissatisfied with my answer, then he would give a sign to the civilian
10 to beat me with a rubber baton."
11 Could you please tell us how long took this interrogation? How
12 many times and where were you beaten?
13 A. The interrogation lasted, perhaps, from between 20 and 30 minutes.
14 How many times I was beaten on my back, I really do not know. In any
15 case, more than ten times.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness P, in your statement from 1994, on page
17 12, last line, until page 13, first paragraph, you said: "The
18 interrogation took approximately two hours. My back hurt, but there was
19 no bleeding. It was only black and blue. No bones were broken. My
20 colleague in the neighbouring room had two ribs broken during his
21 interrogation. They did ask me whether I heard the screams and beatings in
22 the other room. They said if I didn't answer correctly, I would be
23 treated similarly and to just wait, that I would hear the screams."
24 In 1994, you told the representative of the OTP that it
25 interrogation took approximately two hours. Is this correct?
1 A. Well, our arrival, the fact that we waited in front of the office
2 where people were sitting, the interrogation itself, general discussion
3 about what should be done with us, this is what I meant when I said a
4 longer period of time. But the interrogation itself lasted up to half an
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification.
7 In the same statement of 1994, page 15, second paragraph, you
8 said: "After my first interrogation, nothing happened to me except when
9 they came and asked for my money. Bjelobrk, he was a taxi driver from
10 Omarska, he was the one telling them I had money. I was advised to tell
11 them where my money was; otherwise, I could be beaten to death." Do you
12 remember this, and could you explain the details of this?
13 A. Well, I did give that statement. Bjelobrk, how he came by
14 information and how he informed the guards about it, I do not know. At
15 any rate, I spoke to a person who had to go along with Bjelobrk to his own
16 home to find money and gold for him. That colleague told me: "If they
17 should look for you, asking for money, you should say how much you have
18 and give it to them. If you don't do that, you will not fare well." And
19 that is what I did. Two or three of my colleagues who unfortunately tried
20 to give answers, they were taken away never to return.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You mentioned three names at that time. I
22 continue to quote from the same paragraph: "That happened to another
23 driver and the owner of the sawmill. Ekrem Melkic was the driver and
24 Vasif Kahrimanovic was the owner of the mill. Hilmil Nukic was another
25 driver. His house burnt down and his money was in that house, so they
1 didn't ask him many questions. My house didn't burn down, and I had to
2 draw sketches of the house to show them where my money was." Is that
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the three persons you named here, they were
6 never seen again?
7 A. Two, no -- are no longer alive, but one is. I could also mention
8 a third person who was taken away in the same fashion never to return.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please give us the name.
10 A. Vasif Alihodzic.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Another issue: On page 6 of your statement,
12 paragraph 2, in 1994 you said: "This I heard from my friend, a Muslim
13 policeman. He was sent back to Kozarac from his station in Prijedor and
14 told not to come back to work again. I spent two months with this man in
15 Omarska. He was taken away from there and never came back." Do you
16 remember the name of this man?
17 A. Dedo Arifagic is his name.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you, during the two months that you spent
19 with this man in Omarska, discuss why, and by whom, he was sent back to
20 Kozarac from his station in Prijedor and told not to come back to work
22 A. Well, we didn't go into the details. After the takeover in
23 Prijedor, someone of the police, of the police command in Prijedor,
24 controlled by the Serbs then, established contact with the police in
25 Kozarac to join the Serb police force and declare their loyalty. And they
1 had only insignia of the Serb police, which the people in Kozarac did not
2 want to receive. This is as much as I know about it.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did your friend, the Muslim policeman, tell you
4 who was in charge, giving order to the police, not only who was head of
5 the police but also possible other superior persons?
6 A. No, he didn't speak about that.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And then finally, I want to turn to
8 a totally different issue: Could you please tell the Tribunal whether or
9 not there was any change in the paying system by the banks, after the
10 so-called takeover?
11 A. My company was in the Srbac municipality, and the payment
12 transactions that until then went to Sarajevo, were redirected to Banja
13 Luka or Belgrade. I could note that from the new giro account numbers
14 which were in the various payment forms for insurance, pension insurance,
15 social insurance, and so forth.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In your statement of 1994, page 6, third
17 paragraph, you said: "The companies were taken over by the Serbs. The
18 paying system by the banks was now directed to Banja Luka, and from Banja
19 Luka it was directed to Belgrade. I knew this because whenever I had to
20 make payments, I had to fill in two sides of the cheque. On one side
21 there were blanks which I had to fill in for payments to Sarajevo and that
22 bit was missing. In general, the paper was divided into three parts.
23 There was a stamp and blanks that had to be filled in for Sarajevo, the
24 second for the Opstina, and the third for Belgrade. After the takeover,
25 they cut out the one -- they cut out the one for Sarajevo and replaced it
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 with Belgrade." Is this correct?
2 A. Well, I don't know if I said cut out or replaced. I cannot
3 remember, but I know that the payment transactions, as a whole, went to
4 all directions except Sarajevo.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Furthermore, you stated, quote from page 5,
6 third-last paragraph: "For example, we did not receive television
7 broadcast from Sarajevo. All the bank accounts for business payments, for
8 electricity or gas or water were in Belgrade. No money went to Sarajevo.
9 All taxes went to Belgrade instead of Sarajevo. It became difficult to
10 travel. There was a lack of petrol." Correct?
11 A. That is correct.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this.
13 Judge Fassi Fihri.
14 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Witness P, you said that the
15 white house was the antechambre of death, and that there was another
16 house, a red house. What was the use of the red house?
17 A. What was done in the red house, I know that the people that had to
18 slaughter cattle kept talking about the red house. It could be seen
19 through the window. And there, they could find remains of clothing, of
20 shoes of their well-known colleagues who had been taken out a day or so
21 before. And that is why we called it the red house, because it was a
22 place where people were killed, probably during the night. I don't know
23 the exact entrance, where the exact entrance of the house was. We could
24 only see the house from the back. That is all.
25 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] So the two houses were used
1 for executioning people?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Vassylenko.
5 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you.
6 Have you ever heard about Dr. Stakic before the April takeover in
7 Prijedor municipality?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And what do you know about the role of Dr.
10 Stakic in the event you described in your testimony?
11 A. Well, I never knew that everything was under his control. I
12 didn't know what his position was, during the war.
13 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: On the page 4 of your written testimony, taken
14 in August 1994, you said that the weapons changeover would occur at night.
15 After the 6th of April when the western world recognised Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina, how do you explain this?
17 A. Well, I explain it by quoting what I said -- what I heard from a
18 Serb who lived in Banja Luka. He told me that people of Serb ethnicity
19 received arms during the night. It was also mentioned that people had to
20 keep their lights on so that they would know which houses were Serb houses
21 or whether someone would joke and that accidentally lights were on in the
22 house of a Muslim. Whether they received arms or not, I do not know. But
23 when the war began, all people of Serb nationality carried guns. So the
24 assumptions and stories proved to be true.
25 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And who ordered to give arms to the population?
1 A. I don't know.
2 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And one more question: On the page 12 of your
3 written testimony made in August 1994, you mentioned the function of the
4 investigation commission in the Omarska camp. What was the composition of
5 this investigation commission, whom this commission was subordinated to?
6 A. I don't know who they were subordinate to officially. I know some
7 people by sight. I recognised them during the interrogations. I can
8 mention their names. That was Gostimir Modic. Then a retired police
9 officer by the name of Meakic, and the director of the Kozara National
10 Park. I think his name was Knezevic. I'm not sure, but I do know that he
11 was the director of the Kozara National Park. I did not know the other
12 members of the commission. I saw that commission in a joint meeting at
13 the time when I was brought to a room above the kitchen in Omarska, I
14 recognised these three men. And their names were mentioned quite a few
15 times by other people who would also say: "I was interrogated by such and
16 such a person" or so and so. We heard that at the beginning, people from
17 Banja Luka would come in to interrogate. At one point, there was a rumour
18 that those people stopped coming, because less and less people would be
19 brought in to the camp. And that is why probably the people from Prijedor
20 continued to work on their own.
21 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Those people you mentioned, did they belong to
22 the police, to the military, or to civilian? Who were they?
23 A. I saw Meakic wearing a police uniform. And as for Mr. Modic and
24 Mr. Knezevic, I saw them in civilian clothes. So I don't know who they
25 were subordinate to.
1 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: I have no more questions. Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any other questions?
4 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
5 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Mr. President. Thank you.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then we all have to thank you, Witness P, for
7 your patience with us and giving us so many detailed answers and insight
8 of that what happened from your point of view in 1992. And we have to
9 thank you for this. And you're excused.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stands adjourned until 4.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We may then proceed, please, the OTP.
15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. The next witness is s
16 Your Honour, before Your Honours is a binder containing new
17 exhibits that the Prosecution intends to offer and to identify today and
18 have given numbers at least for identification today.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You're speaking about list 1, 2, 3?
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you could go into details.
23 MR. KOUMJIAN: This binder contains the exhibits in list 2 and
24 list 3. If Your Honours' information, list 2 contains exhibits broadly
25 interpreted as coming within the category of Crisis Staff or National
1 Defence Council. And list 3 includes specific exhibits that we planned --
2 I haven't yet met with the next witness, but we plan to probably, or
3 possibly depending on what I learn from the witness over the weekend, if
4 he can comment on these, present and have the witness who will next
5 testify on Monday comment on these exhibits.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Sorry for letting you stand there.
7 Welcome, Mr. Inayat. And could you please give the solemn declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you, please be seated.
11 WITNESS: MAZHAR INAYAT
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You may start.
13 Examined by Mr. Koumjian:
14 Q. Sir, would you state your name for the record.
15 A. My name is Mazhar Inayat.
16 Q. Mr. Inayat, can you tell the Chamber by who are you employed and
17 what is your title?
18 A. I am currently working with the Office of the Prosecutor as an
19 investigator, and I have been the investigations team leader since
20 December of 1997.
21 Q. When did you begin working for the Office of the Prosecutor of the
23 A. My first working day at the Tribunal was 9th of August, 1995.
24 Q. Prior to working with the United Nations, did you have any -- or
25 with the ICTY specifically, did you have any prior law enforcement
2 A. Yes, I have been with the police force in Pakistan since 15th of
3 December, 1980.
4 Q. Until what date approximately working?
5 A. I'm on absence of leave since 9th of August, 1995. So I'm still
6 employed by the police in Pakistan.
7 Q. Mr. Inayat, would you please inform the Trial Chamber regarding
8 the handling of evidence by the office of the Prosecution, specifically
9 when evidence is received or recovered, how is it physically handled,
10 where is it kept, and what records are kept documenting that evidence?
11 A. As an investigator, if I were to take signed statements from
12 witnesses or if I were to receive documentary material from outside
13 agencies, the first thing I would do is when I come back to the Tribunal,
14 I would record the information in a form called "information indexing
15 form," the IFF form. And in that form, I would list the source of the
16 information, when it was received, the dates it was received, the location
17 where it was received. And if there were others involved with me, then
18 the evidence has been received. And after completing the IFF form, I
19 would take the material to the evidence unit of the OTP, of the Office of
20 the Prosecutor. And I would make an entry on their IFF register
21 indicating that I have brought the evidence.
22 The evidence unit would then forward the material to a records
23 clerk who would then stamp the evidence. Each and every page has to be
24 stamped with a unique number, ERN number, evidence record number. Once
25 the unique numbers have been stamped on to the documents, then they are
1 sent for scanning, to scanners, who are also staff working in the evidence
2 unit. The scanners would then scan the material and then it's made
3 available to the OTP staff and we can view it electronically either on our
4 Keyfile database or on our Zyfind database.
5 Q. How do these procedures different for physical evidence, a
6 firearm, for example, or for something such as a photograph or video?
7 A. I think the only differentiation is that if the evidence has been
8 seized, then it has to be treated differently. For example, if I'm on a
9 search and seize mission and I have seized material under a search warrant
10 issued by this Chamber or by the Tribunal, then I have to complete a chain
11 of custody form immediately. I have to write down the exact details of
12 immediately when that happens. And then that chain of custody form
13 basically then is brought back with the evidence, and I'm the custodian of
14 that evidence up to the point it has been submitted with the evidence
15 unit. And again, when I come to the evidence unit, I have to fill out
16 another form for the chain of custody, and then the material is taken over
17 by the evidence unit. Same procedures are adopted for stamping and
18 scanning. But the material from chain of custody will go in a separate
19 vault, not the normal vault.
20 Q. How are the ERN number, the ERN numbers, given to physical
21 evidence? You mentioned a stamp on each page. Are physical items of
22 evidence also given ERN numbers?
23 A. Yes. Each and everything, even videos will be given -- of course
24 the ERN number for videos will start with the letter V. And for audios,
25 it will start with the letter A. But everything has to be stamped when it
1 is registered with the evidence unit.
2 Q. You indicated that you have been with the Office of the Prosecutor
3 for a long time. How long have you been working on investigations related
4 to the municipality of Prijedor?
5 A. When I was promoted as team leader in December of 1997, I joined
6 the -- one of the teams in the Office of the Prosecutor referred to as
7 team 1, which has been mainly responsible for investigating crimes in the
8 northwestern Bosnia, Prijedor being part of that region. So I would say
9 that since December of 1997, 1st December, 1997, I have been working on
11 Q. I'd now like to go to a document labelled "list number 1."
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: And perhaps, at this time, Your Honour, the three
13 lists could be given exhibit numbers, lists 1, 2, and 3 if that's --
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No objections?
15 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could we please have the new numbers.
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I know the registry, I had asked them, indicated
18 the binders also be marked. I don't know if they would prefer we mark the
19 binders first if they have already begun, if there's any preference.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I would say the list comes first, and then the
21 content. So list number 1.
22 THE REGISTRAR: List number 1 would be S53. List number 2 would
23 be S54. And list number 3 would be S55.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence under these numbers.
25 MR. KOUMJIAN:
1 Q. Mr. Inayat, is it correct that list number 1 was prepared by you?
2 A. I prepared the last column, which is called sources, yes.
3 Q. Does this list -- well, you wouldn't be able to testify to this.
4 MR. KOUMJIAN: But this list, for Your Honours' information,
5 concerns items that are already admitted into evidence, that already have
6 an exhibit number.
7 Q. On list number 1, Mr. Inayat, can you explain the last column
8 "sources" what procedures you went through in order to fill in that
9 column as to the source of the documents that have been admitted to date
10 on this case.
11 A. I think it's important that I must make this very clear, that
12 "sources" only means that I'm trying to indicate how the OTP came about
13 these documents. And the way to find this out is that if I have the ERN
14 number for a certain document which you can see is also mentioned in the
15 middle columns. And I can go into Zyfind or Keyfile databases and also
16 the IFF database, and after reviewing those databases, I can get all the
17 information on the source and that's what I have done to indicate the
18 source in the last column.
19 Q. As to list number 2 and number 3, did you also prepare those
21 A. I did, yes.
22 Q. And each of these, the documents are listed by 65 ter number. Is
23 that correct?
24 A. That is correct, yes.
25 Q. And they also have the ERN or ERN numbers. Correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you fill in the information regarding the source in the same
4 A. Precisely.
5 Q. You mentioned, and it's indicated, on some of these sources, that
6 these items were seized in Prijedor. Are you familiar with the Office of
7 the Prosecutor served search warrants in Prijedor at any time?
8 A. There was a search and seizure mission in Prijedor which was
9 conducted on 12th of December, 1997. A large team of investigators and
10 interpreters and lawyers went on that mission with search warrants issued
11 by Judge Fuad Riad in the first week of December 1997. And we conducted
12 searches at four different locations in Prijedor. I was personally a
13 member of the search team.
14 Q. Was there a second search?
15 A. There was a second search in Prijedor which was conducted at six
16 different locations, and this second search took place in October, from
17 28th -- sorry from 27th until 29th of October, 2000. And again, I was a
18 member of that search team. But on the second occasion, I have to
19 clarify, that we did not have search warrants, although we did have the
20 prosecutors' directive, which allowed us to conduct the searches.
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, if the witness, if the map that has
22 been marked --
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just, I'm a little bit surprised about
24 this document. For example, reading on page 1 on the bottom line, SK44.
25 This document was never admitted into evidence.
1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Apparently there was an error made.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I hope this is the only one. Thank you.
3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, may Exhibit S3 be displayed on the
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And apparently, sorry, the same is true for SK
6 43A and B.
7 MR. KOUMJIAN: That is correct. That was the report that was not
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Thank you.
10 MR. KOUMJIAN:
11 Q. Mr. Inayat, you indicated that these seizures, first in 1997, that
12 you went to four location inside Prijedor. Are these locations indicated
13 on this map, the Prijedor town map, Exhibit S3?
14 A. Yes, they are indicated, yes.
15 Q. Can you point to those and indicate the four locations.
16 A. This one here is the Municipal Assembly building, and this is the
17 location where I personally went to. This here is the SUP or the police
18 station building. A lot of my colleagues went there. And the third one
19 is the SDS offices. In fact, the arrow is indicating to the street, so
20 the SDS offices are very close to the end of this arrow. That's the third
21 location. And finally, a team went to this location which is the radio
22 station and Kozarski Vjesnik offices. Kozarski Vjesnik offices will
23 locate in the radio station building, so that's the fourth location. This
24 is 12 December, 1997.
25 Q. Thank you. And in the year 2000 seizures, can you indicate the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 locations that were searched?
2 A. In October 2000, we searched the police station once again. And I
3 went there. So let me put it like this. Yes. So I went to the police
4 station here. And I went on the 28th and 29th. I went there on two days.
5 Then we went to the Ljubija mine headquarters. This is here.
6 Then we went to the health centre, which is here. The fourth location we
7 went to was the Prijedor hospital, which is here. The fifth location was
8 in the Omarska camp, which you cannot see here on the map, which is
9 further southeast of Prijedor. So these were the locations we went in
10 October 2000.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Inayat, did you also prepare certain maps for use
12 in this case?
13 A. Yes, I have.
14 Q. And can you tell us what you used in order to prepare those maps,
15 what kind of computer programmes or hardware and software you used?
16 A. The OTP has in its possession, geographical information systems
17 software called Artview. We've had it since 1996. The current version we
18 are using is Artview 3.2. This is a software developed and which is owned
19 by an American company which has offices in Rotterdam, and the company is
20 called Esri. I received training almost 18 months ago on how to use this
21 software. It's a powerful tool which allows me to create a map and to
22 insert any information I want. I can highlight villages. Two arrows
23 indicate landscapes that I want to. I have been frequently using the
24 system, and I think I probably believe something like four maps have been
25 exhibited in this case that I have created on Artview.
1 Q. How are the actual locations determined as far as the relationship
2 between one location and another? What is used in that software, do you
4 A. The software has a certain search tools. For example, if I were
5 to focus on the municipality of Prijedor, the actual map will not show me
6 where Hambarine is, for example. Just giving an example. But using the
7 search tool, if I were to highlight Hambarine, it will give me the exact
8 coordinate, in fact, it will take me spot on where Hambarine is. And then
9 using certain other features from the programme, I can then use certain
10 dots or images or symbols to point where Hambarine is, and then I can use
11 even text to write the word "Hambarine." So there are other tools such as
12 a tool that allows me to measure distances. For example, if I wanted to
13 know the exact distance between Prijedor and, say, Kozarac, I will use
14 that tool and it will give me the exact distance. As I said, it's a
15 powerful programme which allows me a number of things to do to prepare
16 maps which can then be seen and, you know, and in court.
17 Q. If S51 could be displayed on the ELMO, please.
18 Sir, on some of the maps, there are photographs surrounding the
19 map. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, I have prepared some maps on Artview where the trial team
21 wanted to also highlight digital images of relevant places, so I was able
22 to do that also.
23 Q. Did you prepare today an indication for each of these photographs
24 that you used as to the date that that photograph was taken?
25 A. Yes, I did create this three-page document which gives information
1 on when the digital photographs appearing on these maps were taken.
2 Q. I believe that everyone should have a document which was
3 distributed this afternoon, the first page, it's a spreadsheet. And the
4 first page or table, item number 1, is Ljubija/Brisevo overview. Could
5 this be marked as the next exhibit in order.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please give us some guidance what you
7 are speaking about.
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, it is a --
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Follows the three lists that were previously marked
10 independent from the binder.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay.
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's a three-page document.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Here we are. Right. So consequently, it would
14 be 56. Right? Objections?
15 MR. OSTOJIC: No objections, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted.
17 MR. KOUMJIAN:
18 Q. Mr. Inayat, can you briefly explain this table that you prepared
19 in S56.
20 A. If you look at the first column, it gives four serial numbers
21 which are for four different maps that I have prepared which have digital
22 images. And then for each of these four maps, in the fourth column, you
23 will see digital photograph number. This is the number which is on the
24 photograph on the map. And the last column indicates the date when the
25 image was recorded by an investigator and the name of the investigator.
1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have another document which should
2 have been distributed indicating "index of Prijedor photographs." May
3 that be marked next in order, S57, I believe.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 57. I can see no objections.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: No objection, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted.
7 MR. KOUMJIAN:
8 Q. Mr. Inayat, is it correct that this index of Prijedor photographs
9 was prepared by you and indicates the source of the photographs that were
10 in Exhibit Number 15, I believe, S15, the booklet of photographs from
11 Prijedor for this case?
12 A. Yes. When I received this booklet which had something like 30-odd
13 photographs on it with ERN numbers, so I searched the sources as to how we
14 received the photographs. And in the last column, I've indicated that.
15 Q. Mr. Inayat, can you tell us -- briefly describe for the Trial
16 Chamber the procedure used when a statement is taken from a witness who
17 does not speak the same language as the interviewer. What are the OTP
18 procedures for taking a statement through interpretation?
19 A. I'll just give a personal example, because I have been involved in
20 taking statements from many witnesses. So after I've identified a witness
21 who has to be met, I will call him, seek his permission for an interview.
22 Once that's given, I will go with an interpreter, occasionally also with
23 trial lawyer from the team, and we will meet with the witness. After
24 introductions and in most cases after giving him my visiting card, we'll
25 spend about five, ten minutes explaining him the reason for this visit and
1 how long the interview will take. Of course, the interpreter is
2 interpreting all along because most witnesses from former Yugoslavia, they
3 do not understand English. I have a laptop with me, and I explain this to
4 the witness, that it might take a day or two, and that he has to give me
5 brief answers which the interpreter will relay to me, and I'll ask him
6 questions. And we always ask witnesses to always distinguish between what
7 they have seen and what they have heard. So with some advice on these
8 matters, we start with the interview. Once the interview has been
9 recorded, the investigator or, in my case, I would read the statement to
10 myself once again on the laptop and see if any additional follow-up is
11 required. If it is required, then I'll ask additional questions to
12 clarify areas of his statement or her statement.
13 Once all that has been done and I have edited the statement, in
14 terms of spellchecks and things like that, then I will request the
15 interpreter to read back the statement to the witness. The interpreter is
16 looking at an English transcript, but she is translating that into the
17 B/C/S language. Once the readback has been completed, investigators will
18 always ask the witness if he is satisfied with his or her statement
19 because they have to sign it, and since they are going to adopt it, they
20 have to say they are satisfied. And once the witness is satisfied with
21 the statement, we will print the statement and we will ask the witness to
22 sign on the first page, initial all other pages, and finally on the last
23 page, there is a witness acknowledgment, in which the witness says that
24 the statement has been read back to me and that I agree with the contents.
25 In recent years, we've also inserted a B/C/S witness acknowledgment so
1 that the witness can read this. And then he will again sign the last
2 page. The interpreter will sign the interpretation. There's a
3 certification, interpretation certification. She'll sign and initial all
4 other pages. And the investigator will also sign the first page and
5 initial all other pages.
6 Q. Is the statement a verbatim -- taken verbatim from the witness,
7 the witness's words, or is the statement first written in a narrative form
8 by the investigator summarising the answers and information given by the
10 A. The matter that I've always used as an investigator, I have taken
11 down verbatim what the witness has been telling me.
12 Q. Do you take down every word that the witness says?
13 A. I take most of what the interpreter says.
14 Q. Is the -- you indicated that the statement is read back. You
15 prepare the statement in English. Is that correct?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. And it's read back to the witness by the interpreter. Is that
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Is the interpreter reading off the screen of the laptop normally
21 or off of printed material?
22 A. It can vary from investigator to investigator. I personally
23 prefer to allow the interpreter to sit with me and to start reading from
24 the monitor, from the laptop. Some investigators prefer printing it out
25 and then doing the read back, but then if changes are required, then a lot
1 of time is wasted. So just to save time.
2 Q. You indicated that the witness signs the statement. Is that
3 statement the witness signs then, the English statement that you've
4 prepared or the investigator has prepared?
5 A. Yes, certainly, yes, always invariably.
6 Q. Now, this Trial Chamber has seen B/C/S versions of those
7 statements. Can you explain when those are prepared?
8 A. So when I have taken statements from witnesses on mission, I'll
9 come back and complete the IFF form for each statement. It will go to the
10 evidence unit. And then if the team has identified that particular
11 witness to testify or for further follow up, then a translation request is
12 put in to the CLS branch of the Tribunal where all translation work is
13 done. And it is at that point that that English statement that the
14 investigator has taken is then translated into the B/C/S language.
15 Q. Last summer, did you take a video, a film, from a helicopter over
16 the area of Prijedor, among other areas?
17 A. That is correct, on 22nd of July, 2001, that happened.
18 Q. Did you prepare an edited version of that tape?
19 A. I have prepared an edited tape which is about 11 minutes and 40
21 Q. When you say edited, can you explain what you did to the first
22 film that you took?
23 A. The first film that I took of Prijedor was something like 55
24 minutes, maybe even more than that, and having discussed this within the
25 trial team, it was believed in courts you don't have that much time to
1 show the whole film, so it's better to just concentrate on the main areas
2 that you want shown in the Court. So keeping that in mind, I went to the
3 audiovisual section in the Tribunal, and I had it edited to show only the
4 relevant portions, related to the indictment I should say.
5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, the video is prepared to be played.
6 May it be given a number at this point.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This would be S58.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no objections. Admitted.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sorry. No objection, Your Honour.
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, may we play S58, and may I ask the
11 witness at any point he wants to stop the tape, he can ask for it to be
12 stopped. Please point out the sights that you recognise on the tape as
13 it's being played. May we proceed in that manner. Thank you, Mr.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are looking at the Omarska
16 detention camp, and in the background you can see the open-cast quarry
17 where iron ore was extracted before the war. This Your Honours, you can
18 see there are about four buildings. The one nearest to us is the
19 administration building, and then there is this big red hangar building,
20 and the small building in front of the big red hangar building is the area
21 referred to as the white house. This is the administration building, Your
23 MR. KOUMJIAN:
24 Q. Does that contain the kitchen?
25 A. That does contain the kitchen on the front portion on the ground
2 Q. Can you see the red house?
3 A. Yes, the red house is the small --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and the witness please slow
5 down and make pauses between question and answer. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the open-cast quarry, which
7 is about I would say 500 metres from the main hangar building. And this
8 camp, Your Honours, is located southeast of Prijedor about 21 kilometres I
9 would say by road.
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Can we stop the tape at this point.
11 Q. We see some roads here by the camp. Can you explain where those
12 roads go?
13 A. In fact, what I'm looking at right now is there is -- one of
14 the -- this road is basically is going around the camp. And if we just
15 play this a little bit, I can then point out the direction it takes to go
16 to Trnopolje. This is just coming out of the camp now. And this road
17 that you see is heading west towards Trnopolje. And the rail track is
18 also running parallel. In the distance you can see the fish pond, which
19 is very close to the Trnopolje camp. [Need notation for video played].
20 This is, Your Honours, I think about -- less than 5, maybe 6, 7
21 kilometres from Omarska. This is the fish pond I was referring to, which
22 is located south of Trnopolje camp. In fact, very close to the camp.
23 This, Your Honours, in the very centre of your screens is the big white
24 building which before the war was a school in Trnopolje and turned into a
25 detention area, also known as the Trnopolje camp.
1 And the railway station in Trnopolje is located about 200 metres
2 from this camp. Initially, most people who were deported were deported
3 from this railway station. Your Honours, this grassy area that you see at
4 the back of the camp, this was mainly used for the refugees. The majority
5 of refugees who couldn't go into these buildings inside were staying
6 outside. The smaller white building that you see to the right of your
7 screens was also part of this camp, but it was the community centre. And
8 just behind it was the Serbian Red Cross headquarters. This place,
9 Trnopolje, Your Honours, is about 5 kilometres south of Kozarac, where we
10 will be heading now after we have finished with Trnopolje.
11 This is the railway station, Your Honours, at the bottom of your
12 screens. This is a road coming from Omarska, the car is heading towards
13 Trnopolje from Omarska. So this is an asphalt road right in front of the
14 Trnopolje camp heading towards Kozarac on the right side. This is in
15 between Kozarac and Trnopolje, the Ukrainian orthodox church, which is
16 still intact. And very close to this church are the small hamlets of
17 Jaskici and Sivci, places that will probably be mentioned during the
18 course of this trial. The main road heading towards Kozarac.
19 This here, Your Honours, is Kozarac. And Your Honours, this is
20 Kamicani. Look at it very close to Kozarac. This, Your Honour, is the
21 big road that you see at the bottom, is the main Banja Luka/Prijedor Road.
22 Banja Luka is about 48 kilometres from Prijedor. We are still in
23 Kamicani. And this, the centre of your screens, is the wood-processing
24 plant in Kozarac. And very soon you will see the intersection, the main
25 intersection of Kozarac. This, Your Honours, is the orthodox church in
1 Kozarac. And here you can see Kozarac village, which is quite a big
2 settlement. Another view of Kozarac looking north.
3 Your Honours, there is a road from Kozarac, a metal road going up
4 to the top of the mountains, about 9 to 10 kilometres in distance. It
5 takes you to Benkov's barracks. This is the Benkov's barracks. These
6 barracks, before the war, were used as a summer camp for students from all
7 over the country, but in January 1992 was taken over by the RS army, the
8 JNA and later the VRS. And even today, it is with them.
9 You can see those barracks at the back, facing the forest. There
10 are several barracks. And end of May, beginning of June, people who were
11 fleeing from Kozarac, they were arrested from the forested area and
12 detained here for several weeks before being transported to other camps in
13 Prijedor. So these are the barracks which were used as detention.
14 From here, Your Honours, we'll be heading west. And the first
15 location we'll come to is the Keraterm ceramics factory which is also
16 known the detention camp. Your Honours, at the bottom of your screen,
17 the big building you see is the Keraterm factory. The brick factory is
18 just behind it. We may not be able to see, this one on the right. This
19 factory is located less than 2 kilometres from Prijedor centre. And on
20 the main Prijedor/Banja Luka Road. Your Honours, now you will be seeing
21 at the very bottom of your screens, I will indicate that, the offices of
22 the Kozara Putovi construction company which you just saw the red roofs at
23 the bottom of your screens. And these offices were used for
24 interrogations during the initial operation of this detention camp.
25 This is the front view of the Keraterm camp. And you see an
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 asphalt path leading to a metal door here, Your Honours. You will see it
2 again. This is referred to as room number 3. It's right in the centre of
3 your screens now. And rooms 1 and 2 were to the left, and room 4 to the
4 right. Your Honours, this is the centre of Prijedor where all the
5 government buildings are, which I showed you on that map also. And in the
6 middle of your screens, you see Prijedor hotel right on River Sana. Your
7 Honours, now we are heading towards west of Prijedor to the Brdo region.
8 Six villages located there, Biscani, Rizvanovici, Rakovcani, Hambarine,
9 Brisevo -- oh sorry, Carakovo, not south direction. Now we are in
10 Biscani. There's a lot of construction going on these days when we made
11 this film. This Your Honours is still Biscani. You will see a small
12 white-coloured clear mine. This clear mine, as you can see it at the
13 right hand middle of your screens is located very close to a square called
14 Mrkalj square, and I think this will figure quite frequently during -- I
15 was even trying to point from the helicopter. This, Your Honours, is the
16 hamlet, Hegici, also located in Biscani and will be referred to during
17 these proceedings.
18 Your Honours, we are now heading to Rizvanovici. This is the
19 village of Rizvanovici, located within kilometres of Biscani. Prijedor
20 city in the distance, and fish pond also in the distance. Your Honours,
21 this is Rakovcani, also located -- in fact very, very close to
22 Rizvanovici. Now we are still in Rakovcani. Now, Your Honours, we are
23 coming to Hambarine Polje, part of Hambarine village.
24 This, Your Honours, is Hambarine village, the big building in the
25 centre of the screen is the community centre. Hambarine, I believe, is
1 probably one of the biggest villages in the Brdo region. And this, Your
2 Honours, we are overflying Carakovo, the fifth village, located very close
3 to Sana, Sana River, I mean. This is a community centre you see at the
4 middle of your screens. It is also a new cemetery. And Your Honours,
5 River Sana and the thing I want to show you here is the bridge called the
6 Zege Bridge, and we will be focussing on it now. This place will also be
7 mentioned when witnesses talk about Carakovo. This is the bridge.
8 From here, Your Honours, we will be going to Ljubija. This is the
9 Ljubija football ground. This, Your Honours, is an area where we exhumed
10 mass graves. We won't be able to see the exact place there because
11 helicopters couldn't fly over certain areas. This, Your Honours, is
12 Brisevo, overwhelmingly Catholic village completely destroyed, and a lot
13 of people killed in July of 1992.
14 The last thing you will see, I think we are about to finish now,
15 is the Catholic church was built in 1990, a newly-built Catholic church in
16 the distance there. One of the maps shows the photograph gives the
17 impression that the church is still intact. The photograph was taken from
18 the front of it. That's why. If you look at this aerial image, it shows
19 that it's destroyed. There is no roof. That's it.
20 MR. KOUMJIAN:
21 Q. Mr. Inayat, you indicated at one point a map --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. Inayat, you indicated at one point a location where bodies had
25 been exhumed, an exhumation site. What is the name of that site?
1 A. In fact, there are two locations there. The first one is called
2 Redak, in a small area called Kipe. That site was exhumed in, I believe,
3 1999. And then the second site was exhumed last year, also very close to
4 the first one in the Ljubija area, and the site is called Jakerina Kos.
5 Those were the two sites exhumed by us.
6 Q. I think at one point you were indicating that this was an area
7 where a helicopter could not fly over. Was that Jakerina Kos?
8 A. No, that was Redak Kipe. And Jakerina Kos is about 2 kilometres
9 further down the road. But there is a map I know, that you are using,
10 where I've indicated the exact locations of these two mass graves.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I don't have any more questions of the
13 witness. But the exhibits referred to in Exhibits Number 54 and 55 are in
14 binders. I'm wondering if we could mark those at this point,
15 indicating -- I realise the Defence hasn't had time to make any objections
16 regarding them. I don't know if Your Honour prefers to mark them now or
17 at a later point.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's worthwhile marking, and then let's
19 wait and see whether or not there are objections.
20 Could the registry please start with the new exhibit numbers.
21 THE REGISTRAR: So we are talking about these two right now?
22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Starting with 99.
24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Starting with each 65 ter number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: So number 99 will be S59. 158 will be S60. 172 is
2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Most of these, Your Honours, do have a B/C/S
3 translation, or an English translation and a B/C/S original. So can we
4 assume that for each of these the English is A and the B/C/S is B?
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. But let's be careful and do it piece by
6 piece that we really have everything together.
7 MR. KOUMJIAN: So on 99, the English would be S59A,and the B/C/S
8 S59B. Is that correct?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, this is correct.
10 Proceed? So we have S60A and S60B. S61A and S61B. 65 ter number
11 201 will be S62A and S62B. Number 204 will be S63A and S63B. Number 207
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please not so fast that I can follow whether we
14 have both English and B/C/S version. Is it correct, the former 204,
15 B/C/S, there is no better copy available?
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: We can try to see if there's a better copy
17 available. May we leave this for now, and we will try to see if our
18 original is any better.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. 207.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Number 207 will be S64A and S64B. Number 208 will
21 be S65A and S65B. Number 212 will be S66A and S66B. Number 218 will be
22 S67A, S67B. Number 219 will be S68A and S68B. Number 224 will be S69A
23 and S69B. Number 225 will be S70A and S70B. Number 226 will be S71A and
24 S71B. Number 227 will be S72A and S72B. Number 228 will be S73A and
25 S73B. Number 229 will be S74A and S74B.
1 Number 230 will be S75A and S75B. Number 237 will be S76A and
2 S76B. Number 246 will be S77A and S77B. Number 247 will be S78A and
3 S78B. Number 248 will be S79A and S79B. Number 253 will be S80A and
4 S80B. Number 257 will be S81A and S81B. Number 267 will be S82A and
5 S82B. Number 268 -- sorry.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 267.
7 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think there's a problem with 267. I see, Your
8 Honours. Only one page B/C/S. I see. I see, I'm sorry. It does have.
9 All three pages are translated.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Announcement and decision.
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Correct.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: All together. Okay.
14 THE REGISTRAR: So number 268 will be S83A and S83B.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Stop. What should go as 83A, I can understand
16 in English. But then we have numerous pages in B/C/S.
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Can we check for a moment. I think this may
18 already be admitted, this exhibit. I'm double checking that.
19 No. Apparently it's a different interview.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But shall we please do with all the B/C/S pages?
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, I think the reason there are multiple pages
22 is in order to get all of the newspaper in. Each one, it's the same page
23 but photographed several different times, so to have the entire article
24 photocopied, apparently they put the newspaper in different positions.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Please continue.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Number 278 will become S84A and S84B. Number 279
2 will become --
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Stop once again. Here I have one page in
4 English, and two pages in B/C/S.
5 MR. KOUMJIAN: The second page in B/C/S, apparently the
6 translation is not included at the moment. We could check on that.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So for the record, the B/C/S with register
8 number 00633806 is still open.
9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Correct. We're checking to see if there's a
10 translation of that page.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then proceed to 279.
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Actually, if I could suggest, to make it easier, we
13 take out the second page. It's also a separate decision, so it probably
14 should be given a different number in any case. And we can decide on
15 whether we want to admit that as a separate exhibit later.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Number 279 becomes S85A and S85B. Number 299
17 becomes S86A and S86B. Number 303 becomes S87A and S87B. Number 305
18 becomes S88A and S88B. Number 306 becomes S89A and S89B. Number 365
19 becomes S90A and S90B. Number 440 becomes S91A and S91B. Number --
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Wait a minute. It's the wrong one. 455.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Number 455 becomes S92A and S92B.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Shall we continue with list 3 immediately?
23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Number 21 becomes S93A and S93B. Number 25
1 becomes S94A and S94B. Number 42 becomes S95A and S95B. Number 69
2 becomes S96A and S96B.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What's wrong here? We have two English pages.
4 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's correct. The only thing on the last page is
5 a stamp regarding how it was obtained.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have the impression we have two English
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: And we have two different decisions, I believe.
9 Maybe not.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay.
11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could the English page be explained, please,
13 after 96B. To which document does this belong?
14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe what happened in this case, which happens
15 sometimes, is that the same document was received, IFFed and ERNed twice
16 and translated twice. It's the same decision. It may have been obtained
17 from two different sources. We would ask that just one remain, the first
18 remain, and both of the English and the B/C/S, and the second be removed.
19 So the original B/C/S would be P0038529. And the other page, we can
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm hesitant whether we can really remove. I
22 don't know what the content, but evidently, there are different stamps on
23 it. And I don't know whatever will be the meaning at the end of the day.
24 And therefore, I believe we should have it as it is. My only question was
25 what about the following English page 00389096A?
1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, that is a certification as to how it was
2 received. And perhaps we may give that a different letter other than A
3 and B. Actually, it should be part of B, because that's the certification
4 how the original, B, was received. That's probably the back of the
5 original stamp that was placed on the back.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. 76.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Number 76 becomes S97A and S97B. Number 77
8 becomes S98A and S98B.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. But I can't see any 77.
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: That actually is already admitted, and so we should
11 not give it a number. I'm sorry, that should not have been on the chart.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then we may proceed with 79.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Number 79 becomes S98A and S98B. Number 81
14 becomes S99A and S99B.
15 Number 83 becomes S100A and S100B. Number 84 becomes S101A and
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Next on the chart is already admitted also, so we
18 will not have the 65 ter in the binder. So that should be skipped, number
20 THE REGISTRAR: Number 120 becomes S102A and S102B. Number 133
21 becomes S103A and S103B. Number 139 becomes S104A and S104B. Number
22 140 becomes S105A and S105B.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Here, we once again have two B/C/S versions.
24 Correct? Or even three or more? Could you please have a look what's
25 about 105B.
1 MR. KOUMJIAN: I notice that the three B/C/S, each has a different
2 ERN number, although they are sequential. So I'm confused about it, but
3 apparently they were seized as three different original papers. Each page
4 was ERNed separately, but it's the same document, so there's one English
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So for the record, and for the list, we should
7 clarify that Exhibit Number 105B consists of four documents.
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. And actually, looking at the signature, it is
9 three different documents.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed. 171.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Number 171 becomes S106A and S106B. Number 200
12 becomes S107A and S107B.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before we turn to 220, I don't believe that this
14 can be the translation of what we can find in B/C/S. Or is it the
15 intention only to admit into evidence, or to tender, to be correct, now
16 number 97 on the B/C/S version, and to exclude the rest of the page?
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry, I'm confused by number 97. We're
18 talking about 65 ter number 200?
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 220.
20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. The only -- we're only talking about decision
21 number 97. This, I believe, is a page out of the gazette. I'm not sure
22 about that, but we're only tendering number 97 which is translated, for
23 this exhibit.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Number 220 as described becomes S108A and S108B.
1 Number 222 becomes S109A and S109B.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This seems to be a little bit confusing. I have
3 numerous documents under 222.
4 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's numerous decisions. It's one copy of one
5 issue, issue number 2, for the gazette of the Autonomous Region of
6 Krajina, 1992. So the gazette lists numerous decisions, but the gazette
7 was seized as one document, one publication.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So is it correct to state that the document 109A
9 includes 50 pages?
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. That's correct. That's exactly correct,
11 running sequentially in ERN number 00497838 to 7860.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 261.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Number 261 becomes S110A and S110B. Number 262
14 becomes S111A and S111B.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Once again, it's the same problem. It's only 55
16 on 111B?
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Correct.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Number 263 becomes S112A and S112B.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The same will be true with 264, it's only 97?
20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Mr. President.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Number 264 becomes S113A and S113B. Number 276
22 becomes S114A and S114B. Number 289 becomes S115A and S115B. Number
23 298 becomes S116A and S116B. Number 305 becomes S117A and S117B.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can't see 305.
25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Apparently, it didn't make it into the binder, and
1 perhaps we will not mark it. We'll bring it down Monday, if we use it.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So please, may it be skipped from the registry.
3 And we conclude by S116A and B.
4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, Mr. President, just one other matter
5 on this. List number 1, Your Honour pointed out that there were a couple
6 of items listed as admitted that were not. We have corrected that. It
7 has been corrected by Ms. Karper during the testimony of Mr. Inayat, and
8 we could substitute, Your Honour, if it's agreeable to all parties, a
9 corrected list.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That's fine, we appreciate.
11 MR. KOUMJIAN: S53. I can hand out a corrected S53.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
13 Any other technical problems?
14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would move the video into evidence if it has not
15 yet been actually admitted into evidence.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it has been. It has a number already.
17 And I would say it's only fair to give the Defence the opportunity to
18 object until, say, Tuesday.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. That would be great. Thank
20 you very much.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So then it's appropriate to have a break until
23 --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, for the record, the Prosecution is
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 assisted now also by Lise-Lotte Karlsson.
2 We have no further questions. The witness is available. But if
3 the Defence wanted to indicate their preference, which I have no objection
5 MR. OSTOJIC: We will proceed in any way the Court wants us to. We
6 can either ask a couple questions. We, however, having just received some
7 of these, although previously obviously they were presented to us, would
8 like some time to go into detail with each of the exhibits with the
9 witness. We are prepared to go forward for about a half hour, otherwise
10 we would reserve our right to continue to ask this witness some other
11 questions based upon his testimony and obviously his duties here at the
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I understand that you intend to proceed with
14 some general questions during the next half hour, and then later on,
15 having had a view on all the documents, cross-examination also related to
16 some documents?
17 MR. OSTOJIC: That's fair, if that's the way the Court wants me to
18 proceed --
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Then let's proceed this way.
20 May the witness be brought in once again.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Inayat, my name is John Ostojic, and I'm here with Mr. Branko
24 Lukic and we represent the accused Milomir Stakic in this case. Good
25 evening or good afternoon. I'm going to ask you a couple questions today
1 with some guidelines the Court has provided us. I may be asking you some
2 questions in the future when you testify again in connection with other
3 documents related to these you've presented to us today. So bear with me
4 please. Sir, just briefly, can you tell us what your educational
5 background is.
6 A. In 1980, I finished my -- graduated from the University of
7 Islamabad in Pakistan with a master's degree in International Relations.
8 And in 1988, I was selected on a British Consul scholarship and I attended
9 Exeter University for a year and a half, and I did my masters in Police
11 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't catch the name of the university.
12 A. Exeter university is about 200 kilometres southwest of London.
13 Q. Thank you. A couple general questions, in connection with some of
14 the testimony you gave today. I note on page 13, line 21 through 25 of
15 today's transcript, and proceeding on page 14, line 1 and might be just
16 me, but you initially stated that there were six locations during the
17 second search that were performed. And I was able only to write down
18 five. So maybe if I list them and then you can tell me which one is
19 missing. Or if you'd like to list them, I'll do whichever you'd like.
20 Were there six locations or five that you actually searched?
21 A. In fact, there were six locations. And the map that I was using
22 today perhaps an older version. And on that map, I couldn't find the
23 sixth location which I'm certain I had pointed out. I can repeat those
24 locations once again. It was the Prijedor medical hospital. It was the
25 health centre in Prijedor. The Ljubija mines headquarter offices in
1 Prijedor. The Omarska administrative offices, located adjacent to the
2 Omarska detention camp. Then there was this police station in Prijedor.
3 And I have to admit that the sixth location, I just can't recall it. And
4 I am certain it was six locations, and I can give you those later on.
5 Q. That's fine. I just wasn't sure if it was my notes. It was not
6 two police stations --
7 A. Yes, thank you for reminding me. Omarska police station. So we
8 went to two police stations, one in Prijedor and the second one in
10 Q. Thank you. On December 1997, I believe you said was the
11 approximate time in which you became team leader of team 1, and that was
12 the time that you received a legal and lawful warrant to do a search and
13 seizure of four locations in the area that we've commonly referred to as
14 the Prijedor municipality. Correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. And approximately three years later, October 27th through the
17 29th, the year 2000, you mentioned that you went on a second search
18 mission or search and seizure mission, but this time, and I'm paraphrasing
19 your testimony, I apologise for doing so, but you correct me if I am
20 wrong, this time you mentioned that "there was no search warrant," but
21 there was an OTP directive. And I'm paraphrasing. Is that accurate or
22 close to what you said earlier this afternoon?
23 A. The directive that I was referring to issued by the Prosecutor
24 under, I believe, Rule 39. So it was a directive issued by the Prosecutor
25 allowing us to search locations in Prijedor.
1 Q. Why wasn't, if you know, a warrant issued in October of 2000 as it
2 was in December of 1997 to do a search and seizure in the area commonly
3 referred to as the Prijedor municipality?
4 A. Before going on this search mission in October 2000, we had
5 requested Judge Rodrigues who was the president of the Trial Chamber
6 trying Kvocka et al, and we had requested a motion a search warrant be
7 issued. But Judge Rodrigues and the Trial Chamber, I believe, dismissed
8 that motion, did not allow it, because the team I am representing was not
9 only trying Kvocka, we are trying the Stakic case and other issues in
10 Prijedor. So we still wanted the search to be conducted. So we went to
11 the Prosecutor, and which, as I said, allows her to issue a directive and
12 which we used for these searches.
13 Q. During the first search prior to going to Prijedor -- strike that.
14 Let me just finish on this thought. I apologise. Can you distinguish
15 which records were obtained through the search and seizure from the 2000
16 search and seizure versus the December 1997 search and seizure?
17 A. Let me first go to the 12th of December 1997 search and seizure
18 mission. During that mission, which was conducted in one day, we started
19 in the morning around about 9.00, and we finished our searches
20 approximately, I would say, 7.00 in the evening at the Prijedor police
21 station, at the municipal building, assembly building, at the SDS offices,
22 and at the Radio Prijedor -- radio station Prijedor offices. So of
23 course, at those four locations, we sought and we seized a lot of material
24 with a limited staff that was available to us to do the searches. It was
25 not possible to sift through material and make a selection there. So
1 obviously, we selected a very large collection which was later properly
2 reviewed when it was brought to the Tribunal.
3 But as far as the second search mission is concerned, from October
4 2000, we went with a limited objective. We went with the decision that we
5 will review the material even if it take three days, that is why the
6 searches were allowed to be conducted from the 27th to 29th. And at the
7 six locations, we recovered -- I have the exact numbers of documents, but
8 we recovered really a very limited number of documents. So that's the
9 difference between the two searches.
10 Q. Can you tell us, since it's relatively easy, if it's not too
11 difficult, can you tell us how many you recovered in December 1997,
12 documents, and how many you recovered in October of 2000?
13 A. I would be only guessing. But I have the -- exact numbers
14 available to me. If only I'd known, because I had the impression that you
15 wouldn't be cross-examining today, otherwise I could have brought those
16 numbers. I can tell you that in the first seizure, that happened in
17 December 1997, but please take it as an estimate, that it was probably a
18 hundred thousand pages. I would say about 40.000 documents from all the
19 four locations. But when it comes to the October search mission, I think
20 not more than 3 to 400 documents, maybe consisting of 5.000 pages.
21 Q. I understand totally that it's an estimate, sir, and we're not
22 going to hold you to those numbers at any time until we have an
23 opportunity to have you do a little further research and refresh your
24 recollection on that. And so I just want -- just to clarify, in December
25 of 1997, is it true that the only location that you yourself personally
1 did a search and seizure was in the municipal building, the municipality
2 municipal building. Correct?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. You did not go into the SUP building or the SDS building or the
5 radio station, Kozarski Vjesnik, correct?
6 A. I did not go to the radio station and Kozarski Vjesnik offices,
7 and I did not go to the SDS offices. However, after concluding the
8 searches at the municipal building, probably by 5.00, I would imagine, I
9 was then asked to report to the police station from where, in fact, for
10 the record -- for record purposes, let me point out the largest collection
11 was seized. I was asked to come and assist the search team there. So I
12 spent about two hours with the search party at the police station in the
14 Q. In your computer data, would you be able to, by clicking certain
15 search bases or data information, would you be able to inventory how many
16 documents came from the radio station and Kozarski Vjesnik?
17 A. Oh yes, certainly, yes.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'll be following up on that, if I may. Did
19 you, during your December 1997 search and seizure, did you obtain the
20 original documents from all four of these locations that you've
22 A. Whatever was seized from these four locations was, in fact, lying
23 around there. So those, I believe, were originals. We did not ask them
24 to provide us copies with what we had seized. We just picked up material
25 that we thought was relevant. So I imagine that that is original.
1 Q. And do you still have, or does the OTP still maintain, those
2 original documents from those four locations during your search and
3 seizure of December 1997?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. And all those documents have been scanned. Correct, to the best
6 of your knowledge?
7 A. No. I'm quite certain that the documentation seized from Prijedor
8 in 1997 is all in the system, yes, scanned.
9 Q. Now, can you tell us if one of the reasons or if you know that the
10 OTP wanted to seize documents from the radio station, Kozarski Vjesnik, in
11 December 1997 was because they wanted to determine what the propaganda was
12 from the people in the territory of Prijedor municipality?
13 MR. KOUMJIAN: I object, relevance, what the purpose of the OTP
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you explain.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, I'm truly leading up to a point, and it's not
17 as if I'm hiding it, if I may explain and elaborate a little bit. If the
18 OTP has seized all the documents from the radio station, and if they are
19 using a selective group of those documents to show propaganda that may or
20 was instituted by various Serbs during that time period, it is difficult
21 for the Defence to go to the radio station and to Kozarski Vjesnik and
22 find any documents since we believe, respectfully, all the documents were
23 taken away. So to give this Trial Chamber the proper perspective or at
24 least our perspective, we would think that the Kozarski Vjesnik would also
25 show possibly propaganda that has been issued by the SDA, HDZ, and other
1 political parties we have discussed here. To date, we have been unable to
2 because they continuously tell us no such information is available. That's
3 all been taken away. So that's the purpose for it. And it's not meant to
4 obtain any confidential information from him, because I think the witness
5 has established that they actually do have the documents, original or in
6 copy form, and still maintain those documents.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the witness has already stated that
8 these documents are in the possession of the OTP, and I don't know -- I
9 can't identify the sense of an additional question when it's to find out
10 what is still in the possession of the OTP and to have access, this is a
11 different question.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may proceed, Your Honour.
13 Q. With respect to the SDS documents that were seized in December of
14 1997, can you tell us if the documents -- strike that. Can you also
15 describe for us, not at this time, but the specific documents that were
16 seized during your search and seizure of December of 1997?
17 A. Are you talking of the quantity of documents seized from SDS
19 Q. Forgive me for interrupting. I know you said approximately
20 40.000. And we said we're not holding you to that number. All I'm asking
21 is: Is there a mechanism within a 10 or 20 minute period, or you tell me
22 whatever period it is, to punch in a code, a search request, and say here
23 are all the documents we received from the December 1997 search and
24 seizure from SDS headquarters or SDS building?
25 A. Yes, that is possible.
1 Q. How long would it take you to do that for each one of these four
2 locations that you searched on December 1997?
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please slow down
4 and make pauses between question and answer.
5 A. Can you please repeat the question.
6 MR. OSTOJIC:
7 Q. How long would it take you to -- if someone were to ask you,
8 please give me an index of all the documents that were obtained from the
9 December 1997 search and seizure, an index, how long would it take you to
10 say or to find the information that indeed from the municipality,
11 municipal building, we got X amount of documents, and from the SUP, we got
12 Y amount, et cetera?
13 A. First of all, the document collection that was seized in December
14 1997, for records, let me point out, the largest collection came from the
15 police station. Second, municipal building. Third, SDS offices. Fourth,
16 Kozarski Vjesnik and radio station. Now, if this Chamber asks me to
17 provide an index, I would imagine it should not take me more than three to
18 four days. But if the urgency was that it should be done quicker than
19 that, then I think I can go to the ISU section within the OTP and put in a
20 request and maybe they can do it in a day's time. But if you were to ask
21 me to do it, I would imagine it would take me three to four days because
22 that's not the only thing I'm doing. I have to really juggle in between
23 the times I can spend on different projects.
24 Q. I appreciate that. What does IU [sic] stand for?
25 A. The information systems unit.
1 Q. And the same question with respect to the items, although less in
2 amount, I think you said approximately, although we're not holding you to
3 these numbers, 3 to 400 documents, approximately 5.000 pages, the same can
4 be provided by either yourself or the IU unit --
5 A. ISU unit.
6 Q. With respect to those six locations from the search and seizure in
7 October of 2000, correct?
8 A. I think as far as the second search mission is concerned, that can
9 be done by me and much quicker because of the limited number of documents
10 that were seized.
11 Q. Okay. Let me now turn to the first search and seizure that you
12 did. Were you assisted by any personnel other than the OTP and team
13 members during this first search and seizure? And what I'm looking for,
14 if I may ask a leading question or specific on this just for the purposes
15 of expediting it, December 1997, were you assisted by any members of the
16 Republic of Bosnia or the AID group, or unit referred to as AID?
17 A. No.
18 Q. During the second search and seizure, were you assisted at any
19 time by any other entity other than the personnel working for the OTP
20 through the ICTY?
21 A. Again, if you're referring to the federation forces, no. But RS
22 forces, they helped us.
23 Q. Is it your testimony that the federation forces did not help you
24 in either December 1997 or October 27th through the 29th, 2000. Correct?
25 A. I think that's correct, yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Let me ask you if I may, to turn to a different subject quickly,
2 and we may get to it at a later time, you discussed the interview process
3 that is conducted with the witnesses. And just trying to focus you on
4 that issue if I may. On page 37, line 21 of your testimony earlier today,
5 one of the procedures for taking a statement from the witness is I believe
6 you said at that page number and line, again, page 37, line 21, said that
7 we would ask the witnesses to give "brief answers." Again, Mr. Inayat, I
8 just don't want to represent that's what you said. I believe you did, but
9 if you didn't, clarify it for the record. That's my notes and my
10 recollection on that.
11 A. Maybe I did not phrase it properly. What I meant was that
12 sometimes when you put a question to a witness, the witness tends to give
13 very lengthy response, which is very difficult for the translator, the
14 interpreter working on the interview, to keep in mind. So with that in
15 mind, I said that normally we tell our witnesses if they have lengthy
16 responses they need to break that information up into smaller pieces. I
17 didn't mean that they shall give a summary of the question, summarised
19 Q. Then at another portion of your testimony, I think you said we
20 would take down their statements verbatim and actually then I think you
21 corrected the verbatim and said we would take down verbatim what the
22 interpreter would say. Correct?
23 A. Precisely. Because I don't understand the B/C/S language, so I
24 have to rely on the --
25 Q. Fair. And the answers are as good as the interpreters are. Would
1 that be something you would agree with me on?
2 A. As a non-B/C/S speaker, we have to rely on what the interpreters
3 are telling us.
4 Q. Were you doing the questioning of the witnesses?
5 A. Invariably. The interpreters are not supposed to put questions.
6 Q. I'm not suggesting that they did. I apologise if that was the
7 inference. Did you have a prepared questionnaire that you would ask each
8 and every different witness that you would interview from time to time?
9 A. I don't recall ever using a questionnaire, a written questionnaire
10 for interviewing witnesses. I've used a questionnaire for interviewing
11 accused, but never witnesses. That has, at least, not been my way of
13 Q. Do you know if other investigators or persons on your team who
14 have taken statements from witnesses, whether or not they have used
15 prepared questionnaires or questions to certain witnesses?
16 A. I don't think so. There were several investigators working in my
17 team and this thing has never come up where investigators have indicated
18 that they are using questionnaires for interviews.
19 Q. How do you, as an investigator, know what to ask each and every
20 witness? First, if you could describe for us how do you know that the
21 witness will be relevant to either this case or any other case in the
23 A. Well, we have access to a large commission of expert report which
24 was put together in 1993 and 1994. And the commission of experts
25 appointed by the United Nations. They requested several governments in
1 Europe and in Asia to interview refugees living in their countries, and
2 those interviews were done by police officers in those respective
3 countries. So that was a starting point for us, for our investigations.
4 For example, for Prijedor, I know, again, I don't want to give an exact
5 figure, but I know hundreds of witnesses were interviewed by policemen in
6 Scandinavia and Germany and Holland as part of the commission of experts
7 report. So that was a starting point. That's how we found out our main
9 Q. Of all the witnesses that you've interviewed, on how many
10 occasions -- or that you know, witness statements in connection with the
11 Prijedor municipality, since becoming a team leader on December of 1997,
12 how many occasions did you find that the Prosecutor would be either
13 present, and if you could distinguish when he isn't, or when the
14 Prosecutor was actually asking questions of the witnesses?
15 A. When you say Prosecutor, you mean the trial attorneys working on
16 the team?
17 Q. Correct.
18 A. Okay. In most of the interviews that I personally have done, and
19 it's difficult for me to give an exact number, I would say something like
20 70 to 80, I have conducted the interviews on my own. But as we are
21 getting closer to trial, there have been occasions when trial attorneys
22 working on this case have accompanied investigators, and I don't know if
23 you asked me this also, whether the questioning is done by trial
24 attorneys. In the interviews that I have conducted, I can say that
25 invariably, I have put the questions. There must have been rare occasions
1 when trial attorney present in the room may have asked me to ask
2 additional questions just to clarify things. But as investigator, I have
3 put those questions.
4 Q. Are you as an investigator, you don't have any mandate to get
5 information from a witness which would be in favour of or against any
6 individual accused. Correct?
7 A. I'm sorry, I didn't follow the question.
8 Q. You as an investigator, are you an independent person who merely
9 seeks to obtain information from either a victim, or someone related to
10 the victim, in connection with events that may have occurred in a certain
11 area? You're not someone who is attempting to obtain information only in
12 favour of one side against the other, are you?
13 A. To be honest, I don't know if I really followed what you're
14 saying. But there have been occasions when I have sought witnesses out,
15 and there have been occasions when witnesses have given me information
16 that tends to be in favour of the accused. And that has been written
17 down, which probably is called Rule 68. And that has been identified.
18 Q. I'm not denying that. Please don't read too much into my
19 questioning, although I understand that it's late. Do you know how many
20 items or were you involved -- strike that. Sir, were you involved at all
21 in compiling the Rule 68, otherwise known as exculpatory materials, for
22 this case that we're here on behalf of Dr. Stakic?
23 A. I personally have not been involved, but the taskings have come
24 from me to the investigators that that has to be done.
25 Q. Did you verify, being the person that was actually involved in the
1 search and seizures both in December of 1997 and October of 2000, did you
2 go back and verify from the materials that you received and said: "Yes,
3 I'm confident as the team leader this is all the 68 exculpatory materials
4 that we have in our possession in connection with any of the issues
5 relating to Dr. Stakic?"
6 A. I don't think that's part of my job description.
7 Q. Did you do it or didn't you do it?
8 A. I didn't do it.
9 Q. Did anyone from your team -- I apologise. I keep forgetting that
10 we are getting it translated in three different languages. My apologies
11 to the interpreters and to the Court and to the witness. Did you, sir,
12 first tell me how many members are in your team if you can. I don't know
13 what's confidential or not. To the extent -- I'd rather have you err on
14 the side of telling me it's confidential, than saying something that we
15 would have an issue with later. Can you tell me how many members are on
16 your team?
17 A. I don't think there's a problem telling that.
18 Q. I don't either.
19 A. You see, it can vary from time to time. When I joined the team,
20 there was two investigators. There have been in the year 2000, even 2001
21 when we had nine investigators, now we are back to seven. So it varies
22 from time to time.
23 Q. When you say your team, sir, does that include any of the
24 attorneys who would be participating in any of the trials before this
25 Tribunal and these Chambers here?
1 A. No. Although trial attorneys are assigned to certain teams, but
2 they come under directly the senior trial attorneys and not the team
4 Q. Is Dominic Smyth in your team?
5 A. He used to be in team one at a certain point.
6 Q. What time did he -- if I'm allowed to ask, or if not I'll withdraw
7 the question.
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: My objection is just relevance. I think we're
9 getting pretty far afield.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll precede, if I may, on a different point.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll come back to that later.
13 Q. Can you tell us who of your team members made the decision as to
14 which documents constitutes exculpatory materials pursuant to Rule 68?
15 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would object that this is beyond the scope of
16 direct examination. This is not the witness that conducted Rule 68
17 searches. I don't think that's the subject of his testimony. If there is
18 a hearing regarding whether the Prosecutor's office in this case has
19 complied with the Rule 68, it would make sense to have the witnesses, who
20 were actually involved in that, testify. It's beyond the scope of his
21 direct examination.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I disagree. I think the leader of a team should
23 know about this. Therefore, please proceed.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Inayat, can you answer that for us, do you know who they were?
1 A. Can you, once again, just repeat the question.
2 Q. Who were the members of your team who compiled the exculpatory
3 materials that were given in the Dr. Stakic case, pursuant to Rule 68?
4 A. The day-to-day administrative working of the investigation side is
5 conducted by an investigator called Sue Ellen Taylor. I have to refer
6 this question to her to find out the exact answer.
7 Q. Prior to conducting interviews with witnesses, do any of your team
8 members, including yourself, meet with the Prosecutor?
9 A. With the trial attorneys within the team, you mean?
10 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. Specifically that. But I hesitate because the
11 trial attorneys change as do the team members, as do -- does a lot of
12 different functions so. The trial attorneys at that time, I would, I
14 A. Yeah. Most of the time, when the missions are planned, the team
15 leader makes out a list of people that have to be interviewed during a
16 mission. And under our OTP procedures, the senior trial attorneys have to
17 be made aware of any outgoing missions. And just to make sure that the
18 senior trial attorney and the team leader are aware of this mission, there
19 is consultation about the mission plan. The senior trial attorney in my
20 team, and in my experience, has never sat down with me to discuss what
21 evidence the witnesses will talk about or what the questioning is supposed
22 to be. I'm personally not aware of any such development.
23 Q. You, being the team leader of team one, do you help and assist the
24 other members of your team, whether two, nine, or seven in number, meaning
25 the size, do you give them an indication of the types of questions you're
1 looking for or areas that you want to cover?
2 A. Most investigators that I've worked with have come into this
3 Tribunal with 10 to 15 years of experience, sometimes maybe less. But
4 mainly 10 to 15 years of experience. I've never felt the need to discuss
5 the evidence of each and every witness. However, whenever it comes to
6 important witnesses, such as political leaders, such as police officers,
7 such as people with a military background, either I have been involved in
8 their interviews myself. Or when the staff working under me, when they go
9 on such missions, we have a discussion on these important witnesses.
10 Q. Do you -- or did you, before interviewing certain witnesses,
11 review the indictment against the accused Dr. Stakic in this case?
12 A. I'm personally not aware if I have interviewed any witnesses
13 specifically for Dr. Stakic's case.
14 Q. Did you review his indictment at any time, of the various forms
15 that it took? It's currently the fourth amended indictment I believe, but
16 I'm not limiting it to just the fourth amended indictment.
17 A. Yes, I have reviewed it. I've looked at it. I've read it.
18 Q. Do each of your team members look at it at any time?
19 A. They are supposed to. They are duty bound.
20 Q. Why is that? What's the duty telling them to review the
21 indictment prepared by the OTP in connection with the accused?
22 A. To know the facts of the case.
23 Q. The facts that are disputed or the facts that are undisputed?
24 Which do they look for?
25 A. I don't know what to say on this. But what I certainly know is
1 that all investigators, they read the indictment and that they have the
2 indictment just to be aware of what has been alleged.
3 Q. Let me ask you: From having experience since 1980 with the police
4 and your background and schooling and having worked here as a team leader
5 since 1997, you don't take the indictment and accept the facts that the
6 Prosecutor prepare in the indictment and say, "Yes, those facts are
7 undisputed. All we are going to do is go out and find the evidence." In
8 fact, you say "I just want to find out the truth. Is this really true?"
9 Or tell me how you do it?
10 A. I totally agree with you.
11 Q. Which one?
12 A. I totally agree with you --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please make pauses
14 between question and answer.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: I, again, apologise, Your Honour, to the
16 interpreters and to the Court and the witness.
17 Q. Thank you. Sorry.
18 A. I totally agree with you that even though I've read the indictment
19 several times, and if I were to go and interview a witness, I wouldn't
20 stop him if he were to give me evidence which was inconsistent with the
21 indictment. I would never stop him. I will just take what the witness is
23 Q. You don't have a legal degree, correct, sir?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. I know you got a masters in international relations, and I respect
1 that very much. In your testimony on line -- I mean on page 42, page 14,
2 you mentioned a word that I think has a legal -- or I'm going to ask you.
3 When you said most people were deported from such and such an area, or
4 deportation, are you telling us today that that's a legal opinion, or is
5 that just a layman's way of describing something that perhaps you learned
6 or gleaned from the statements, discussions with the Prosecutor, or any
7 scenario you might want to envision?
8 A. When I talked of the railway station in Trnopolje which is, as I
9 said, about 200 metres from Trnopolje camp, and having read witness
10 statements and also have interviewed some of them, most of them talk about
11 the deportations. They said that they were deported from the camp by
12 train during the initial weeks of the camp. And so I've picked up this
13 word basically from what witnesses have told me.
14 Q. Speaking of those statements, you stated that you take down
15 statements or you try to, obviously with certain limitations. And I, by
16 no means, mean to be disrespectful to you, but you take down statements,
17 verbatim answers, in essence, is what you said. My question in connection
18 with that is why, if you know, why don't you have a tape recorder during
19 your interview process with the witnesses that you're taking statements
21 A. I know that in 1997, this thing was very seriously being
22 considered. But I wasn't privy to the final discussions which were held
23 in which it was decided that that's not feasible. So we just kept on with
24 the laptops and writing the statements down.
25 Q. Who decided that?
1 A. I think you'll have to ask from the senior management in the OTP.
2 Q. You don't know.
3 A. No, I don't know.
4 Q. At any time, sir, as an investigator with the 22 years of
5 experience that you have both in Pakistan and here at the ICTY, since 1980
6 I believe you said, had you at any time given a thought to say, it would
7 be fair and it would be neutral for everyone, including the Trial Chamber,
8 to hear the questioner ask the questions and to hear the response being
9 given by the witnesses? And it would actually take away the method of
10 having you go through the process of typing down the statement, preparing
11 the statement, having the statement written down, and then translated.
12 Did you ever contemplate that?
13 A. Personally, it may be what you're saying is right. But as I said,
14 I wasn't privy to the consultations where they must have considered all
15 factors before deciding not to have these recorded interviews.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: I know I'm running out of time. If I may, just for
17 the record, and I know that we have an agreement on this, just reserve my
18 right. And I want to thank Mr. Inayat for his answers today and for
19 staying as late as he did. I appreciate it very much. We have no further
20 questions at this time, Your Honour, with the understanding that I may
21 come back, but ever so limited, on some of these issues. Thank you.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then the witness is excused for
23 today. And probably we come back to you at a further point in time when
24 the Defence so wants. It's, of course, for you to decide when it's
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Any other observations for today?
2 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you, Witness.
4 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Mr. President.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the trial stands adjourned until Monday,
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
9 6.26 p.m., to be reconvened on
10 Monday, the 27th day of May, 2002,
11 at 9.00 a.m.