International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3824

1 Thursday, 30 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Good morning, everybody. Can

7 we hear the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

9 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And same procedure as every day, appearances,

11 please.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Nicholas Koumjian with Ruth Karper for the

13 Prosecution, Your Honours. Good morning.

14 MR. LUKIC: Branko Lukic with Mr. Danilo Cirkovic for the Defence.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Before we start, a very brief

16 comment, having a look on yesterday's transcript, first of all, to the

17 Defence, please don't misunderstand the comments given by the Bench. It's

18 just to concentrate on the real and major issues of the case, and please

19 take it as given with the principle, jura novit curia, the Judges know the

20 laws as applicable in this court and therefore we should take care to

21 proceed as soon as possible. And you may draw some conclusions from the

22 remarks of the Judges on the relevance, what the Judges themselves regard

23 as really relevant. So please understand the comments in this spirit.

24 And as regards you, also good morning to you, Witness, please be

25 so kind also in the interest of the Defence, provide us with precise and

Page 3825

1 clear but hopefully short answers. And this being said, we may start

2 immediately with the cross-examination going on.

3 WITNESS: MIRSAD MUJADZIC [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

6 Q. Good morning, Doctor.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. Did you get enough rest?

9 A. Yes, thank you. Did you?

10 Q. So did I. I hope this will not prove to be my own testimony.

11 Let's start immediately, as our time is limited. I will try not

12 to go into any legal issues today, but rather discuss specific and

13 concrete issues. On Monday's transcript, page 27, line 21, you say that

14 the SDA advocated the idea that, after the 1991 elections, the left-wing

15 parties should also be represented in organs of authority. Can you,

16 perhaps, tell us whether there is any written evidence as to these

17 intentions by the SDA and where this evidence may be found?

18 A. That was during the negotiations between the parties. This idea

19 was proposed by SDA leaders, and we weren't talking about left-wing

20 parties but about opposition parties in general. As these were

21 coordination meetings, I'm not sure there's any written trace. But at any

22 rate, perhaps we could find a witness who could confirm this.

23 Q. Did the coalition -- was the coalition not agreed with the SDS and

24 the HDZ at the republican level?

25 A. It was only a month after the elections. What I have talked about

Page 3826

1 was immediately after the elections.

2 Q. Was it known before the election that the SDA, SDS, and HDZ would

3 enter a coalition?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were there any talks to this effect for these two parties to enter

6 a coalition?

7 A. No, there were never any talks about this sort of coalition.

8 Q. Was there a coalition between the SDA and the HDZ against the SDS?

9 In Bosnia and Herzegovina and after the establishment of power in Bosnia

10 and Herzegovina, on the basis of the 1991 elections, of course?

11 A. The 1991 elections? You are probably referring to --

12 Q. The first democratic elections.

13 A. That was in November 1990.

14 Q. Yes, I apologise, November 1990.

15 A. There was never, not at any single moment, such a coalition of the

16 SDA and the HDZ against the SDS.

17 Q. 1992 -- 1991 and 1992 is the period we're talking about. Were

18 there any meetings organised by the SDA and the HDZ at which such a

19 coalition was advocated, the idea of a coalition against the SDS? And

20 were any flags displayed at these meetings, at these rallies, of the SDA

21 and the HDZ? I would like to add the following: Not only whether the

22 flags were displayed, but whether they were actually tied up one after the

23 other.

24 A. I'm sure that at no meeting of the SDA was anything ever said

25 against any of the peoples or any of the parties. And I'm also sure that

Page 3827

1 no coalition of the SDA and the HDZ was ever referred to in terms of a

2 coalition against the SDS. It is true that flags were tied up

3 individually. Sometimes even as many as a hundred thousand people

4 attended these meetings, but that in itself proves and means nothing.

5 Q. Thank you. I would like to briefly go back to the event in

6 Hambarine on the 22nd of May, 1992. Was the car that was fired at, at the

7 checkpoint in Hambarine, coming from the direction of Ljubija?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You claim that you heard that passengers, from the car that was

10 fired at, were requested to turn in their weapons?

11 A. Yes, that's true.

12 Q. Why were they not asked to turn in their weapons on their way into

13 Hambarine but rather on the way out as they were leaving for Prijedor?

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The witness can't answer this.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Do you know?

17 A. I really can't answer this question.

18 Q. You said before that you examined the wounded and found that two

19 of them were dead. Did you move them from the spot, or did they always

20 remain in the exact place where they were wounded?

21 A. I found them. They were lying maybe several metres away from the

22 car, and I only examined them, but I didn't move them from that place.

23 Q. Did anyone else move their bodies? Do you know that? Are you

24 familiar with that information?

25 A. No, I couldn't say.

Page 3828

1 Q. Do you know if they were ever left in that place, unattended by

2 the persons manning the checkpoint? Were they simply left there? Were

3 people manning the checkpoint going somewhere else and leaving them

4 behind?

5 A. I would like to remind you that an armoured vehicle arrived at the

6 scene which left after a brief debate that I had described yesterday, then

7 fired at the checkpoint with light artillery weapons. So no one could

8 stay in that place, because that place was under fire.

9 Q. That's precisely the point. That's why I'm asking you, because of

10 the fact that fire was opened at the checkpoint. Were these wounded

11 people left there? Were they carried off? Because obviously, there was

12 no one there when the place came under fire, or did, perhaps, the armoured

13 vehicle fire anyway even if the wounded were still there?

14 A. Yes, the latter is true. The armoured vehicle firing paid no

15 attention whatsoever to the fact that there were wounded people lying on

16 the spot.

17 Q. But as there was no one at the checkpoint, as you have said, can

18 we draw the conclusion that these wounded people were just simply left to

19 their own devices where they were?

20 A. They were abandoned by people who were in a position to take them

21 to a hospital, the people from the armoured vehicle. I asked them to take

22 these wounded to a hospital because we couldn't. So they were the ones

23 who actually left them behind, not we.

24 Q. As I have not received an answer, I must ask you the following:

25 Does this mean that one of the persons from the checkpoint stood beside

Page 3829

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Page 3830

1 them or not?

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Objection. That's vague as to the time we're

3 talking about. The witness described a series of events. Some took place

4 before he arrived, undoubtedly some took place after he left. During the

5 time he was there, it was before the armoured car came, when the armoured

6 car came. The question is not precise as to the time he's asking when the

7 people from the checkpoint stood beside the wounded.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. The period we're discussing the whole time is the moment the

10 armoured vehicle fired at the checkpoint.

11 A. I've already answered that question. At that moment, there was no

12 one beside the wounded.

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, could I just ask --

14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: -- To remind the witness to pause before answering.

16 I know the interpreters have a little trouble keeping up, and I don't have

17 a chance to hear the question before he answers.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This is true for all the witnesses. Please try

19 not to overlap. And for the witness, please don't, also in your own

20 interest, be too fast with the answer. First rethink, for example, in

21 this case, which is the accurate period of time, and then answer later,

22 that we have really precise answers. Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know today who fired at the checkpoint in

25 Hambarine, in terms of the events that we have just been talking about?

Page 3831

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you name any names, if we go into private session.

3 A. We don't have to. I can say it publicly. First, one of the four

4 persons from the car fired at the persons manning the checkpoint, who then

5 threw themselves on the ground. And then a young man whose last name I

6 remember, Habibovic, who was not a member of the unit manning the

7 checkpoint, but he happened to be there, so he fired, too. I can mention

8 his name because he was later killed in the Omarska camp.

9 Q. Thank you. Was there any investigation into these murders?

10 A. I asked for an investigation to be carried out, but as far as I

11 know, it never was.

12 Q. Can you please tell us how you convened the meetings that were

13 held in Hambarine? You say that you had no phone available at that time.

14 A. By courier, persons who physically went from one place to another

15 on the ground and notified other people.

16 Q. Were they free to move around, as Mr. Cehajic was?

17 A. Some of those persons who were not, in a manner of speaking,

18 prominent could move about freely, up to a certain point in time.

19 Q. In order to convene these meetings, did you use the radio

20 connection that was set up in Hambarine?

21 A. No, we didn't.

22 Q. Are you familiar with the exact number of people organised and

23 drafted into the Territorial Defence forces in Kozarac?

24 A. I do not know the exact number.

25 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, we have one exhibit received

Page 3832

1 from the OTP, but we have never received the translation of this document.

2 So if you agree, we would like to ask this witness to read this

3 information, and I hope that the Prosecution can provide us with the

4 translation.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's appropriate, and let's decide on

6 the formal translation when we have seen the probative value of this

7 document and when it's done in the transcript, we have already the English

8 and the French version. But as I understood correctly it's not yet

9 tendered.

10 MR. LUKIC: It's not yet tendered.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then it will be tendered by the Defence. And

12 the new Document Number will be?

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D6, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: D6, thank you.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I would ask counsel for the record to

16 identify the ERN number stamped on the document, and just for the Trial

17 Chamber's information, not all documents we have have ever been submitted

18 for translation. If the Trial Chamber decides it should be translated, we

19 could submit it to CLSS or the Defence could submit it.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No, it's quite clear we should proceed in the

21 way we did it in the past to ask a witness to read such a document out,

22 and then we decide later whether or not we need an additional formal

23 translation. So please proceed.

24 Do you have any 65 ter number? This would be really helpful.

25 MR. LUKIC: It's 581.

Page 3833

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 581.

2 MR. LUKIC: But it's not from the last complete documents, last

3 pile of documents. I marked it as B581.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just so the record is clear --

5 MR. LUKIC: I'll give the document to the Prosecution so they can

6 follow because even this ERN number is not easily readable, so I cannot...

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Mujadzic, you heard what our problem was about. We have no

10 translation, so the way this Trial Chamber proceeds is for the document to

11 be read so that both the Judges who speak English and the Judge who speaks

12 French may get a proper translation of this document. Would you be so

13 kind as to read out the whole document from top to bottom.

14 A. By all means.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Can it be put on the ELMO for the benefit of the

17 interpreters.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the benefit of the interpreters and the

19 Judges, please, could one copy be put on the ELMO.

20 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, I have enough documents for

21 the translators and for the Bench.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to clarify for the record, this was not an

24 exhibit, and the number that counsel gave is apparently a disclosure

25 number. It was not on the 65 ter exhibit list. It's a disclosure number.

Page 3834

1 MR. LUKIC: Disclosure number, yes.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: And not all items disclosed are translated.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As I can see through the dark glasses, the

4 booths are prepared, then we can start.

5 Witness, would you be so kind and start reading everything you can

6 identify on this document, to put it this way.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Top right corner of the document,

8 handwritten number, 11212/413. Date the 11th of May, 1992. Upper left

9 corner: "MUP of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, number 1070," and

10 below, the 29th of April, 1992.

11 Then, the remark: "Very urgent." Below, CSB, Security Services

12 Centre, to all, and addressed to the head. Below, public security

13 station, to all, the head. And below, the secretariat of the interior

14 affairs, Sarajevo, to the secretary. "It is necessary that all Security

15 Services Centres, public security stations, and the Sarajevo SUP take all

16 the necessary measures and actions within their competence to ensure the

17 implementation of orders by the commander of the Territorial Defence staff

18 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Number 02/1451, dated 29th of

19 April, 1992, which we forward to you in the original. Order on the

20 implementation of the decision of the presidency of the Republic of Bosnia

21 and Herzegovina, number 02-11-327/92. Pursuant to a decision of the

22 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, number 02-11-327/92,

23 dated the 27th of April, 1992, on the withdrawal of JNA units from the

24 territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and due to failure to

25 observe with this decision by the presidency and the incipient plunder and

Page 3835

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Page 3836

1 robbery of property of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina by the

2 former JNA, I hereby order, one, carry out, set up blockades on all roads

3 in the territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina where units of

4 the former JNA are beginning to evacuate technical and materiel equipment

5 in immediate coordination with the MUP forces."

6 Page 2: "Blockade the wider region of military facilities from

7 which there have been attempts to evacuate materiel equipment, set up

8 blockades with various formation and unnatural obstacles to be manned by

9 units of the Territorial Defence of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

10 and the MUP. Use unannounced convoys -- unannounced convoys of the units

11 of the former JNA and without the MUP's escort, prevent anyone from

12 leaving the barracks and communicating in the territory of the Republic of

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Quickly plan and initiate combat operations in

14 the entire territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

15 coordinate them with the Territorial Defence staff of the region, the

16 district, and the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17 "When planning combat operations, plan also comprehensive measures

18 to protect the population and the material goods owned by the citizens of

19 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Minister of the interior, Alija

20 Delimustafic." End of the document.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Dr. Mujadzic, is this document dated 29th of April, 1992?

23 A. There are two dates on this document. One is typewritten, the

24 29th of April, 1992. And the other is handwritten and is the 11th of May,

25 1992.

Page 3837

1 Q. Thank you. Do you know when the military columns in Tuzla and the

2 one in Dobravojacka Street in Sarajevo came under attack?

3 A. No, I don't know the exact dates.

4 Q. Have you ever heard of these attacks?

5 A. I don't think that I would describe them as attacks. Those were

6 conflicts, and I did hear about them, yes.

7 Q. Did you hear of any negotiations and any promises made to these

8 convoys, that they would be granted free passage both in Tuzla and in

9 Dobravojacka Street in Sarajevo?

10 A. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with these details.

11 Q. At the time the document that you have just read out was issued,

12 do you know whether the representatives of the Serbian people were also

13 members of this presidency, whether they were still on the presidency in

14 question?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, if this is the document that I

16 believe the witness referred to in direct examination, his testimony is

17 that it was never issued. So the question assumes a fact that the witness

18 has denied in his examination.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Probably the Defence could put the question into

20 another form.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. During your examination-in-chief, as my learned colleague has just

23 reminded me, you stated that this document was never issued. Did you base

24 your statement on the fact that the presidency itself denied having ever

25 issued such a document, or is it the case that you have some additional

Page 3838

1 knowledge about this issue?

2 A. On the basis of a public communique of the presidency, the issuing

3 of this document was denied.

4 Q. Thank you. On the 29th of April, 1992, was there any

5 representative of the Serbian people in the presidency of the Republic of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

7 A. I'm not sure that they were there at the time, but Tatjana

8 Ljujic-Mijatovic and Mirko Pejanovic, I believe, were members.

9 Q. Were they elected representatives of the Serbian people as members

10 of the presidency, or did they function as a mere declaration in order to

11 make the general public believe that the Serbian people were still

12 represented at the presidency?

13 A. With Your Honours' indulgence, I should like to explain briefly

14 the procedure concerning appointments to the presidency. The presidency

15 itself has seven members. Each of the three peoples have their

16 representatives there, but also other ethnic groups are represented with a

17 member. The list of the Bosniaks, Bosniak representatives, had, for

18 example, seven members. Then there was a list of Serb representatives,

19 Serb candidates with seven to nine names. And another list of Croats with

20 a similar number of candidates. And also, the fourth list representing

21 the so-called "others" meaning other ethnic groups, which also comprised

22 six to seven representatives. And finally, those who gained the majority

23 of votes were elected representatives to the presidency.

24 Should any of -- if any of the candidates thus elected ceases to

25 be a member of the presidency, either on his or her own will or due to

Page 3839

1 reasons of illness or death, his place is taken up by the candidate who

2 was next in order on the list of candidates. Therefore, through this

3 legal procedure, Mr. Mirko Pejanovic, a very respected and eminent

4 academic was elected as a representative of the Serb people. And also

5 elected with him was Tatjana Mijatovic-Ljujic also an academic, a

6 university professor. Highly qualified people, very prominent and

7 honourable individuals who would never allow themselves to be a mere

8 decoration in the presidency.

9 Q. If that was indeed the procedure that was applied at the time, why

10 was not Fikret Abdic elected as a member of the presidency, since he was

11 the person who had received the majority of votes of the Bosniak people?

12 A. Your statement is not correct. Fikret Abdic did serve as a member

13 of the presidency.

14 Q. Why wasn't he the president of the presidency, given the fact that

15 he had received the majority of votes?

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please don't overlap.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In accordance with the law of Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina, members of the presidency are elected through the

19 elections. At the first constituent session of the presidency, the

20 members, the elected members of the presidency, elect the president. So

21 it was the members of the presidency who elected, as the president of the

22 presidency, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and not Fikret Abdic. His appointment

23 was the reflection of their will.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. As a representative of other ethnic groups, was Mr. Ejup Ganic a

Page 3840

1 member of the presidency, in that capacity?

2 A. Yes, he was.

3 Q. Thereafter, did he become a prominent member of the Party of

4 Democratic Action?

5 A. Yes, he did.

6 Q. Let me go back to the attacks on the military convoys. Or as you

7 said, conflicts with the military columns in Tuzla and Dobravojacka Street

8 in Sarajevo.

9 Do you know how many soldiers were killed in these columns?

10 A. No, I don't.

11 Q. Are you aware of an attack of a military convoy which was supposed

12 to pass through Kozarac two days after the incident in Hambarine?

13 A. I did hear about it, but I do not have any precise information.

14 According to what I know, what was already Serbian Army and not the JNA,

15 officially speaking, issued, first of all, an ultimatum and then proceeded

16 with attacking the checkpoints manned by the Territorial Defence in

17 Kozarac. That was the way it happened, so your statement is not true.

18 Q. What did this ultimatum concern, if you know?

19 A. The contents of the ultimatum were pronounced by Radmilo Zeljaja

20 on the 16th of May, 1992. During the negotiations which were supposed to

21 be held between the representatives of the SDA and the SDS. I will try to

22 paraphrase. "There can be no negotiations. There's no more Yugoslav

23 People's Army. From today on, we are Serbian Army, and all members of the

24 Territorial Defence and the reserve police force are hereby requested to

25 turn in all of their weapons. All citizens of Bosniak ethnicity shall

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Page 3842

1 declare their loyalty to the Serbian Republic and shall respond to the

2 mobilisation into the Serbian army. If you try to make any move, do bear

3 in mind that we have the weapons, including guns, Howitzers, helicopters,

4 tanks, and missile systems and that any attempt on your part to put up a

5 resistance will be severely punished."

6 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honours, I would like now to

7 introduce one document we received recently from the OTP. It has been

8 translated. So I would like the usher to distribute the document.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, we did check, the last document,

10 S6B -- excuse me, D6, there is a translation available, and we can

11 distribute that.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. And do I understand that

13 you don't have any objections for the admission into evidence?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Of D6, I have no objection.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then for the record, the document tendered

16 before by the Defence is admitted into evidence as D6B in B/C/S and D6A in

17 English.

18 Question to the Defence: Does this document have a 65 ter number?

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: It does not, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Then I understand that the first part is

21 the English translation of the handwritten second part. Right?

22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. You are right.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. And if I can just explain, this does not have

24 ERN number. I could be corrected if I'm wrong, but my understanding if

25 these are the documents that were received in the last few days, these

Page 3843

1 were Defence exhibits on the Tadic appeal. So that's the only information

2 we have about them.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then for the record, this should go as D7A and

4 D7B. And apologising in advance if we would have, but if not, the Bench

5 would like also to have this document available to be prepared in future.

6 Because the documents evidently provided by the OTP to the Defence, I'm

7 not aware that they are available also for the Chamber.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, we have provided the Defence probably

9 50.000 pages, or 20.000 pages in this case. This is not anything --

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course, we are -- you know we have 20 binders

11 disclosed until the beginning of the case. But whenever you regard it as

12 necessary to give new documents to the Defence, then also the Bench should

13 be aware of this.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, we are under continuing obligation

15 under Rule 68 to give the Defence documents. We have provided thousands

16 of pages, much more than 20 binders. The 20 binders is just the 65 ter.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to Your Honours' information. We do not know

19 what documents the Defence proposes to use. Our position is it's only

20 fair if the Defence out of the thousands and thousands of pages we have

21 proposes to have a witness we notify us and the Bench so that copies are

22 provided to the Defence.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This, indeed, would be of great assistance for

24 our work. Thank you.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3844

1 Q. Dr. Mujadzic, let me start with asking you if you have ever seen

2 this document?

3 A. No, this is the first time I'm looking at this.

4 Q. Can you recognise the handwriting?

5 A. No, I cannot.

6 Q. The document that you have in front of you, does it have the date

7 the 30th of April, 1992, in the upper corner of the B/C/S version?

8 A. Yes, it does.

9 Q. Would you be so kind and turn to the next page which bears the

10 date the 2nd of May, 1992.

11 A. Yes.

12 MR LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] [In English]... the

13 page in English, Your Honours.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Under Item 1, can you please read out what it

15 says. That sentence and the one after that.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry that I interrupt, but it's for the Bench

17 also to understand the context. Could anybody please explain what are the

18 minutes of what? Because we don't have any cover sheet at all.

19 MR. LUKIC: [In English] We really don't have any date on this,

20 Your Honour. Maybe my learned friend can explain. We just received it as

21 a 68.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: The only information I have is that these documents

23 were submitted as part of the Tadic appeal. I believe they purport to be

24 minutes of the meeting of a Crisis Staff or Territorial Defence, I'm not

25 sure which, from Kozarac.

Page 3845

1 MR. LUKIC: If Your Honours allow, we may go through the document,

2 and later on we could try to provide you with more information. So maybe

3 it should only be provisional.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let us proceed this way.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to be clear, my understanding is these were

6 never seized by the OTP. So we can't provide information on the source.

7 MR. LUKIC: We'll try our best to show the relevance. If not,

8 being provisional, it can be rejected at a later date.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Mujadzic, if you're unable to read this

10 handwriting --

11 A. We can follow the English version, if you want. I fully

12 understand the English text, whereas I have some difficulty with reading

13 this handwriting. Some of the parts are not fully legible, and the copy

14 is not always very good.

15 Q. Do you want me to read the document, and then you can confirm what

16 I read, or would you prefer to read it yourself?

17 A. It's up to you.

18 Q. Since we are looking at the English version, we won't be needing

19 the B/C/S version for the time being.

20 I am interested in the text which follows this second date, the

21 2nd of May, 1992. Can you just read out what is written at the bottom of

22 this page, page 1. The bottom of page 1.

23 A. Are you referring to the 30th of April or the 2nd of May?

24 Q. The 2nd of May.

25 A. I don't see, in the English version, the date the 2nd of May.

Page 3846

1 Q. It's at the bottom of the first page.

2 A. You're quite right, yes. I can see it now.

3 [In English] "2nd May, 1992. First, the security situation in the

4 Kozarac area, total mobilisation of the STO, Territorial Defence staff

5 report from the area." There is no --

6 Q. Do you know whether the personnel of the Territorial Defence in

7 Kozarac was ever mobilised after the 2nd of May, 1992?

8 A. There was a public callup of the presidency of the Republic of

9 Bosnia and Herzegovina to carry it out.

10 Q. Will you please turn to page 2 of the English text. We have Item

11 Number 2, Item Number 3, and then under number 1 again, we read the name

12 Nagib. It is a name, isn't it?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Will you please read out the first sentence which is here recorded

15 as the statement given by this man.

16 A. "A lot of our people carry out acts of provocation. Faslic and

17 Hasan Didin yesterday fired in order to provoke. The police should

18 immediately take such people to the police station and disarm them."

19 Q. In your opinion, does this show that there was shooting even

20 without any orders being issued? It is obvious someone fired and an order

21 was given to the police to arrest them.

22 A. [Interpretation] It doesn't say here that the members of the Serb

23 army were fired at. But there is an order for any such people to be

24 arrested. But if only I may be allowed to read out a very brief sentence,

25 a sentence by Becir Medunjanin, who was the secretary of national Defence:

Page 3847

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Page 3848

1 [In English] "Prijedor can't help us at all, state of readiness of the

2 entire population, not to undertake actions with the aim of provoking,

3 this is the scenario Miskovic outlined in Kozarski Vjesnik, the party and

4 the municipality should be contacted, the main road issue."

5 Q. Does this show, as you have said, that Serbs had taken over the

6 town and that the surrounding area was still under the control of the

7 Territorial Defence, speaking in terms of the Bosniak population?

8 A. [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. And it goes to confirm what

9 I have said. Everyone was convinced that they could not resist, and that

10 therefore, they should not carry out any acts of provocation.

11 Q. Would you be so kind as to go back to page 2 and find on the

12 left-hand side the name Kenjar S. Can you read the statement here?

13 A. [In English] "Civic disobedience should also be discussed with

14 other areas. In Kozarac, some guys are provoking too much."

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. But there are no indications here that the army or the JNA carried

17 out any such acts of provocation.

18 Q. Would you now be so kind as to go to the very end of this

19 four-page document. You have the numbers marked at the bottom of the

20 page. Let's go back to the next document, please, page 1.

21 A. Do you mean translation 323?

22 Q. [In English] Yes, that's right.

23 [Interpretation] Can you locate the name Medunjanin? It is

24 underlined on this page.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3849

1 Q. Can you just read out this one single line, please.

2 A. [In English] "I propose, if Cirkin agrees, that he should take

3 over the RKS local Crisis Staff."

4 Q. Was Mr. Cirkin the head of the local Crisis Staff?

5 A. [Interpretation] According to my information, yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. Do you mind if I read this again?

8 Q. Go ahead, please.

9 A. It is an opinion by some members. [In English] "The staff --"

10 [Interpretation] It's the same page that we looked at just a while ago,

11 the name Fazlic. Second sentence. [In English] The staff must be

12 refreshed with new people, even different nationalities, and people

13 shouldn't be late for meetings in the future. [Interpretation] Therefore,

14 this staff did not have the intention of attacking anyone, but it wanted

15 to involve other ethnic groups, too. The transcript also shows in a

16 different statement that there were a number of members who proposed that

17 Serb citizens should also join the staff.

18 Q. Thank you. Would you be so kind now, please, as to go to the page

19 321 of this document, and under number 2, we see the name "Osman"

20 underlined. Have you found this?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you please read the passage out to us.

23 A. [In English] "Osman: The present situation is entirely the result

24 of the creation of a Serbian municipality. No policeman has signed, and a

25 meeting with them, where they are to say if they wish to remain loyal has

Page 3850

1 been scheduled for Friday. They are being asked to wear Serbian insignia

2 or return the weapons. I propose: That the MZ," [Interpretation] local

3 commune, [In English] "link up with another MZ at the level of the

4 Prijedor municipality, and that an association of municipalities be

5 formed, which would include Kozarac, Ljubija, and Grad, and where the laws

6 of the Republic of B and H would be in force. This should be an interim

7 solution, pending a lasting solution at B and H level. If the authorities

8 are not recognised, they have to be told that."

9 Q. Does this represent an attempt to establish a municipality?

10 A. The situation was quite chaotic. People were trying to organise

11 themselves. I prefer to say that it was an attempt to organise the part

12 that was free. There is not a word here about the establishment of a

13 municipality.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 Would you now please go to page 312. It's the last page of the

16 English document.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, until now, the Bench has shown a lot of

18 tolerance, but it would be unfair to proceed without at least touching

19 upon page 320, because this enlightens what we are discussing. If the

20 witness could be so kind and read the top of this page of 6 June, 1992.

21 THE WITNESS: [In English] "Meeting of Kozarac and Kozarusa Local

22 Communes. Agenda: General and political security situation in the

23 Prijedor municipality with particular stress on the situation in Kozarac

24 and Kozarusa local communes. Miscellaneous."

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Just for clarification, meeting of

Page 3851

1 communes, what does it mean? Which board or which representative of the

2 communes are meeting here?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Prijedor comprised 70 local

4 communes. These are small units, communities that the municipality was

5 made up of. The meeting we are talking about is a meeting between two of

6 these 70 small units that make up the whole.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Does this have anything to do with a kind of

8 Crisis Staff?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can tell, this was a

10 meeting of local communes. Therefore, any citizens could have been

11 present at the meeting.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for these enlightening words. Then,

13 of course, the Defence may proceed with the cross-examination.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. First of all, thanks to the Trial Chamber for their assistance.

16 And I would like to please ask you to go back to page 312. We find the

17 name Bahonjic on that page, and a remark made by that person. Could you

18 please be so kind as to read it out.

19 A. [In English] "If the people from Kozarac want to surrender the

20 weapons, let them so. The people from Jakupovici will kill a few Serbs,

21 so let Kozarac" -- the end of the page.

22 Q. So first of all, was the possibility of turning in the weapons

23 discussed in Kozarac at all?

24 A. [Interpretation] Yes. As far as I know, it was done.

25 Q. Was this before or after the clash? I mean, when were the weapons

Page 3852

1 turned in, before or after the clash?

2 A. I'm not quite sure. I think part of it was surrendered before the

3 clash, but I can't say with any degree of certainty.

4 Q. Was there a checkpoint in Jakupovici?

5 A. I do not know.

6 Q. Several days later following the clash in Kozarac, was there an

7 attack on Prijedor?

8 A. This is also information I obtained from other people, secondhand

9 information, and I'm not sure whether I can present any chronological

10 sequence of these events.

11 Q. You talked about a possible defence plan for the left river bank

12 of the Sana River. Did you cross to the left bank, to Hambarine, in order

13 to organise this defence?

14 A. No, I didn't. It was for security reasons that I crossed the

15 river, as I have already mentioned before. Being a physician, I have no

16 talents or specialist knowledge necessary to organise something like that.

17 Q. In your conversation with Mr. Fikret Kadiric, did you try to

18 convince him to assume the role of someone who would organise the police

19 and the overall defence? Did you say that you were a deputy, and at that

20 moment representing the state by virtue of being a deputy in that

21 particular place?

22 A. It is true that I asked Mr. Kadiric in his position as the head of

23 police to get himself involved in an attempt to organise any sort of

24 civilian authority and to get people organised. But the latter allegation

25 is not true.

Page 3853

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Page 3854

1 Q. Would you please like to tell us what exactly isn't true?

2 A. The allegation that I had said that I was authority in that area,

3 that I was representing the authority.

4 Q. Do you know what Kadiric answered?

5 A. I see you seem to assume that I asked him.

6 Q. I have no idea what he stated. Can you help us, please, and tell

7 us?

8 A. Kadiric said: "Mirza, I would love to do it, but I am not allowed

9 to do it. I have two daughters. If I do anything, they will kill them

10 and rape them."

11 Q. Did you make any threats to Mr. Kadiric that he will have to

12 account for not accepting this offer for a position?

13 A. No, no threats. After I received the reply from him that I have

14 just quoted, our conversation was interrupted, and I said: "Yes, I can

15 fully understand this. I can fully understand your position."

16 If I may just add, related to your question addressed to Your

17 Honours related to your suggestion yesterday that we had organised some

18 sort of war staff, no such war staff was ever organised, nor did any such

19 staff ever operate. And its name was not "war staff." The idea that I

20 did have was to establish a legal council, a national defence council,

21 because with its president, Muhamed Cehajic, in addition to him, there

22 were other four legally appointed members, the head of police, national

23 defence secretariat commander of civilian protection Enes Kusavic [phoen],

24 and I think also the MPs club president would also be appointed. This

25 National Defence Council had to be added to. This idea was never really

Page 3855

1 implemented. Further members should have been republican MPs, and this

2 was envisaged as a body to organise some sort of interim government. So

3 under the law of Bosnia and Herzegovina, such a body would have had full

4 legality and legitimacy. Yesterday, the whole time you tried to invert

5 this by trying to show the National Defence Council, led by Mr. Cehajic,

6 and its functioning by trying to replace the National Defence Council, to

7 confuse it with the Crisis Staff presided by Milomir Stakic.

8 The National Defence Council did operate under the laws of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and its president could not issue orders, did not have

10 authority to issue orders to the head of police or the chief of civilian

11 protection. The Crisis Staff led by Mr. Stakic was half military in its

12 character, whereby Mr. Stakic did have the authority to both order and

13 exercise command and could influence the police and the Territorial

14 Defence. I apologise, but I felt that I had to present this brief

15 explanation.

16 Q. Are you familiar the members of the Territorial Defence and the

17 Patriotic League, did they plan to attack the barracks in Bihac and to

18 take -- to seize the weapons that were in the barracks?

19 A. I am not sure about the existence of any such plans. I don't

20 think there were any such plans, to the best of my knowledge. In Bihac,

21 negotiations were held with a general whose name I can't remember right

22 now, a general from the Bihac Corps. He safely left Bihac with all his

23 army and all his weapons. Immediately following that event, the Belgrade

24 media, the Serbian media, he appeared there, and he boastfully spoke about

25 how he successfully cheated the Bosniaks out of all the weapons and safely

Page 3856

1 escaped with his army. And these were really were facts.

2 Q. Did you make any efforts that -- to the effect that the people who

3 had received weapons from the Territorial Defence surrender these weapons

4 to people that you would have appointed, people who were more favoured by

5 the SDA and people who were more along the lines of SDA policies?

6 A. That's not correct. My efforts were for the Territorial Defence,

7 which was in an area that was later not occupied by the Serb army, for the

8 Territorial Defence to be unified in its activity and to be coordinated.

9 These were my efforts.

10 Q. Just one last question before the break, did you make any efforts

11 to the effect that the people who had been given weapons by the

12 Territorial Defence pass these weapons on to someone else?

13 A. I believe I've already answered this question.

14 Q. So your testimony is that you did not make any such efforts?

15 A. No, I didn't.

16 MR. LUKIC: [In English] It would be an appropriate time, Your

17 Honour.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before we take the break, in order to save time,

19 I have some problems with the documents presented under D7B. As far as I

20 can follow, and the Bench can follow the text in B/C/S, there are some

21 portions in addition in English which we can't find in B/C/S. And

22 especially, we can't identify in the English version, on page 312, the

23 portion on a person Bahonjic. The Defence asked the witness to read out,

24 and I can't see it in B/C/S. Probably during the break, both the witness

25 and the Defence can assist us. Thank you.

Page 3857

1 And then we stay adjourned until 11.00 sharp.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

5 Please proceed.

6 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I have a document which I recently got

7 from my investigators, and it hasn't been translated also. It's a

8 document from -- actually, a clip from the newspapers, and it's an

9 interview of Dr. Mujadzic given to one Bosnian newspaper. So I would like

10 this to be distributed, and I have some questions regarding this document.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Can we in the meantime, in order not to be

12 confused, to come back briefly to Document D7. Could you identify that

13 what you read out in English in the B/C/S part?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please give us the page number.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's page 338 in the B/C/S version,

17 at the bottom of the page.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 338?

19 THE WITNESS: [In English] Yes, 338.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Our document concludes with 328.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The B/C/S version, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 338, yes. And there?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the bottom of the page, we can

24 indeed read the sentence in question. However, there is no -- the end of

25 the discussion, or rather the end of the intervention by Mr. Bahonjic is

Page 3858

1 missing. But judging from other interventions, and I can give Your Honour

2 an example by the same speaker, the same person, I don't think that the

3 intention was to kill Serbs. There was just a talk about the danger, the

4 risk that that might happen. This was taken out of the context of the

5 overall discussion.

6 As an argument to support this, we can have a look at the page 333

7 of the B/C/S version. Let me read it out to you. This is the -- an

8 intervention of the same speaker, on a later date.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Can we get the date, and then we can perhaps find

10 it in the English. Because the page numbers seem to me to be nonsensical

11 as far as the order between both the English and the B/C/S.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In the B/C/S, it's the 6th of May, 1992. And

13 you want to guide us to 333. And then?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 333 in the B/C/S version. I'm not

15 sure that it corresponds to the English translation. There is a lot of

16 confusion with the pages of both versions.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe the witness may be speaking about page

18 315, the May 8th meeting where Mr. Bahonjic --

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think if you read the B/C/S, we can compare.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that is not the issue.

21 Unfortunately, Bahonjic is saying the following: "The preservation of

22 peace was essential, and the need to buy some time. In order for us to be

23 able to oppose this might with intelligence, we should all go out into the

24 field and try and explain this to the people. We are talking about -- we

25 are discussing with the force which is not afraid of anything. If there

Page 3859

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Page 3860

1 should be an implementation of the law of Bosnia and Herzegovina, then we

2 will be faced with an unwanted evil." So it is clear that the same

3 person, the same speaker, is recommending the preservation of peace, that

4 we should all try and to negotiate. No other option is being proposed

5 here.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That which you just quoted we can find in

7 English on page 315, the third paragraph. But thank you for your

8 clarification on this. And I apologise for interrupting the Defence. Are

9 there any objections against the admission of this bundle of documents we

10 have now under D7A and D7B?

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: At this time, I will not, in any way, wish to

12 indicate that we believe these are legitimate. There is a witness who

13 will testify in a few weeks who is quoted in these documents, and he may

14 be able to verify these are legitimate minutes. I have no reason to doubt

15 that they are, but I don't know their source at all. But Mr. Sejmenovic

16 who is not protected is quoted, and he may be able to tell us if these are

17 legitimate minutes.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But following our policy, when in doubt, to

19 admit into he have that what is tendered by the parties. Thereby, this

20 bundle of documents is admitted into evidence under D7A and D7B.

21 May we now turn to the D8, and the floor is for the Defence.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Mujadzic, did you ever give an interview to

24 Refik Hodzic, on the basis of which this article entitled "Mirza Mujadzic,

25 Traitor or a Hero" was published?

Page 3861

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Was this article published in Novo Ogledalo magazine?

3 A. Yes, it was.

4 Q. Would you be so kind and read out to the Chamber, since we do not

5 have the translation of this document at this point, starting from -- with

6 the second column of the text of the interview, which is entitled "the

7 defence line along the Sana River." And if you will please read out the

8 text which is highlighted in green. There is a small portion between

9 these highlighted portions which you can also read so that we know what

10 the connection between the two is.

11 A. At the outset, I have to draw your attention to the fact that this

12 was a series of articles which were published in the Novo Ogledalo

13 magazine. However, I never had the authority to authorise this text,

14 although I had asked the journalist, Mr. Refik Hodzic to allow me to

15 authorise the article. But he never complied with this request, so this

16 cannot be interpreted as an authentic statement of mine.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But nevertheless, I can read out, and then

18 probably comment on this.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "In early April 1992, the Bihac

20 municipal staff of the Territorial Defence, of course, its Bosnian

21 segment, was supposed to carry out an attack on the Bihac barracks to

22 recover all the weapons there and to make sure that, in the course of the

23 month of May, all the forces are pushed to the left bank of the Sana

24 River, according to the plan." Is that what you wanted to hear?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3862

1 Q. Would you please continue.

2 A. Very well. "The republic staff of the Patriotic League actually

3 concluded that the only area that could be defended was the left bank of

4 the Sana River and that the territories on the right bank of the river, at

5 least in the initial stage of the attack, could simply not be defended.

6 This implied an evacuation of all combat troops from the right bank of the

7 Sana to the left bank, and also, on the other hand, the transfer of all

8 military units from Cazin and Kladusa to the left bank. This is supposed

9 to constitute the defence line, which corresponded with the geographical

10 line of the Sana and also the rear part of the left bank. That area being

11 a large Muslim/Croatian area."

12 Q. Thank you. The same idea is explained further in the text. Did

13 you actually state this to the journalist in question?

14 A. I said something to this effect in my previous testimony, although

15 not perhaps using the same words. If you remember, I had mentioned the

16 idea in Bihac that the left bank of the Sana River should be defended. If

17 you remember, I indicated on the map that this excluded the urban area of

18 Sanski Most, Prijedor, and Kljuc, and that the idea concerned only certain

19 territories on the left bank of the Sana. So I already testified about

20 this before the Court. I told you that this idea of defence existed at

21 one point in time in the area of Bihac. But I believe that I also said

22 that once Krupa had fallen on the 23rd of April, this idea became absurd

23 and that we found ourselves completely cut off.

24 Q. As regards the attack on the Bihac barracks, is there anything

25 that you can tell us about it? Is that what you stated?

Page 3863

1 A. This is -- these were not my exact words. You know as well as I

2 do that journalists sometimes interpret the original text on their own,

3 and I emphasise that I did not authorise this text. These are not my

4 actual words.

5 Q. Does this apply only to this particular paper, or is it your

6 standing objection to all magazines and newspapers in Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina?

8 A. I did give a number of interviews. Some of them were authorised

9 by me, but I think that the majority of such texts were not.

10 Q. I'm not referring to your statements; I am referring to a general

11 practice by journalists who are sometimes want to interpret and paint the

12 situation the way they want to present it.

13 A. That really depends on the paper in question. And of course, the

14 reputation of the paper depends on that.

15 Q. Would you please turn to the next page and focus on the column in

16 the middle. There is a title at the bottom of the column "50 people in

17 Prijedor PL" and there is a question preceding it. Can you read the

18 highlighted part, please.

19 A. Are you referring to the middle column? Middle paragraph?

20 Q. Yes, I am.

21 A. What exactly do you have in mind?

22 Q. Will you start please with the question and then go on until the

23 end of the section highlighted in green.

24 A. I don't see any question here. I don't see a question in the

25 middle column.

Page 3864

1 Q. There is a title which says "50 people in Prijedor PL." This is

2 the middle column. That is the only subtitle on this page.

3 A. Oh, yes, I see. You said the section highlighted in green.

4 That's why I wasn't clear.

5 Q. It's probably a mistake. Will you start with the question: "What

6 happened with the Patriotic League?"

7 A. Where do you see this? Oh, yes, I see. "What happened with the

8 Patriotic League."

9 Q. Will you please read out the paragraph that follows, and then the

10 highlighted one which is at the top of the next column.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have some difficulties because indeed, what

12 we can identify as your passage you want to be read out is not highlighted

13 in green at all.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since there seems to be a confusion

15 here, Your Honour, would you accept me reading the text, and then we can

16 hear the comment by Dr. Mujadzic?

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please. We start with the question: "A

18 sta je bilo sa Patriotskom Ligom?"

19 MR. LUKIC: [In English] That's right, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay, thank you.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. "And what happened with the Patriotic League? 50 people in the

23 Prijedor Patriotic League. Mujadzic quote: "When we tried to cooperate,

24 after the mobilisation had been carried out, we decided that those people

25 who were with the local staffs of the Territorial Defence and who,

Page 3865

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Page 3866

1 therefore, had uniforms, logistics, weapons, ammunition, everything, and

2 who were supposed to constitute a corps on the basis of which the

3 remainder of the military-age men had to be mobilised in each of the local

4 communes, that that should be carried out and unified. We established

5 that the structure in question was actually a very carefully selected

6 structure by the former JNA, that it consisted of people who had been

7 carefully selected, and that it was not possible to communicate or

8 cooperate with them in any meaningful way. The only exception to this was

9 Kozarac. Kozarac was well organised indeed, and connected with the

10 Territorial Defence staff. They even had their own command at the level

11 of the entire Kozarac, and a system which was very well connected."

12 Dr. Mujadzic, my question to you, were you dissatisfied with the

13 people who had the weapons that had been distributed by the Territorial

14 Defence, and did you try to secure the transfer of these weapons to some

15 other people, as I have already asked you?

16 A. No, and I don't think this is how you can interpret these words as

17 well. My statement was that these people had been carefully hand-picked

18 by the JNA, and therefore, that it was impossible to cooperate with them.

19 I didn't say that I was trying to force someone to do something. And I

20 also believe that I already explained this in my testimony, either on

21 Monday or on Tuesday.

22 Q. Then you go on and speak about the Patriotic League, which is

23 indicated in the heading of this column. In this passage, you say the

24 following: "At the same time, we were carrying out a political propaganda

25 with the objective of having these people accepted by the population, so

Page 3867

1 that the weapons should be handed over to them and so that from that

2 corps, one day we could have a bigger, a larger formation, larger unit.

3 In order to have such corps of people established in every local commune,

4 which units would be then linked up with other units in the overall

5 system."

6 Were you talking about your requests that the weapons be handed

7 over to the members of the Patriotic League?

8 A. Once again, let me stress that this is not an authentic text. It

9 does not exactly correspond to what I had stated. And I reiterate, we

10 said that those people who were not intending to use their weapons, and

11 there were many such people, so I was -- I'm referring to the 1.700 pieces

12 of legally possessed weapons, either personal weapons or hunting weapons,

13 and also in view of the decision of the presidency of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina to carry out a mobilisation of the people with the objective

15 of replenishing Territorial Defence units. And this is what we were

16 doing. We were implementing the decision of the presidency of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina. This text does not indicate that I or anybody else forced

18 anyone to hand over their weapons to the Patriotic League.

19 Q. I did not exactly use the word "force." I said whether you

20 carried out propaganda for the weapons to be handed over to other persons,

21 other Bosniak persons. I apologise in case you have misunderstood my

22 words.

23 A. It's all right. Apology accepted.

24 Q. Do you know that, at the police centre in Hrasnica, a secret

25 meeting was held on the 10th of June, 1991, at which the national defence

Page 3868

1 association was established, the National Defence Council that you

2 referred to just before the break?

3 A. Nothing was said about any national defence association, so you

4 must have misinterpreted something that I said.

5 Q. Perhaps that's because I'm tired. I seem to be misinterpreting

6 quite a number of things today.

7 Do you know anything about the establishment of this National

8 Defence Council on the 10th of June, 1991?

9 A. I can't remember any such meeting, or at least I did not attend

10 any such meeting. And I had no information on any such meeting being held

11 in Hrasnica at that time.

12 Q. Were the details of the defence of the left bank of the River Sana

13 familiar to the general staff of the BH army, in terms of an order by the

14 general staff with description of the precise movements and maneuvers to

15 be carried out by the units?

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This question can't be answered by the witness.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Would you please be so kind as to turn to the next page of your

19 interview, the second page of your interview.

20 A. Marked as page 6, or 46?

21 Q. 45.

22 A. All right.

23 Q. The top of the first passage, line 5, you state the following:

24 "This is only a global view of this plan. But the details were available

25 at the general staff (Of the BH army -- journalist's note) in the form of

Page 3869

1 an order by the general staff containing the precise manoeuvres to be

2 carried out by units."

3 A. This must have been added by the journalist on the basis of

4 information that he may have had. This is not a statement I made. That

5 is, I was never familiar with any such document simply because I was not

6 in a position to know, as I was not involved with military issues. I was

7 not part of any military staff and therefore was not in a position to be

8 informed about anything like this.

9 Q. Do you know that on the 7th and 8th of February, there was the

10 final agreement on the plan for the defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

11 on the 25th of February, 1992, in Hrasnica, the main staff of the

12 Patriotic League passed a directive to defend the sovereignty of Bosnia

13 and Herzegovina? Are you familiar with any of these?

14 A. Politically speaking, yes, I was informed, as I have already said

15 in my testimony, about the fact that the area containing the town of

16 Prijedor and the majority of the Banja Luka area, the greatest part of the

17 Banja Luka area, could not be defended, and I said this. Concerning any

18 details of the decisions by the general staff or the army, I really can't

19 tell.

20 Q. Could you now please turn to page 46. Third column, third

21 passage, beginning with the word "the second." I will read out the part

22 beginning with line 5 of this passage. This is a statement ascribed to

23 you, and it begins towards the end of the second passage. "First I tried

24 to convince Kadiric, who was the police commander, to take over the role

25 of organising the police and the overall defence. He was an experienced

Page 3870

1 man, and he was well respected in the Brdo area. He categorically refused

2 to be involved in this. Finally, I told him, Listen, we have at present

3 no connection with Sarajevo. We have no connection with the state level.

4 But I am here. I am a deputy to the republican assembly. At this moment,

5 I represent the state, in a way, in this area. If there is ever the rule

6 of law in this state, you will be made to account for this. You must know

7 that I will point you out as the responsible one because you are not doing

8 your duty, the duty you're supposed to be doing."

9 Was this also a misquote?

10 A. If you can just read the sentence to the end, please.

11 Q. "You must put together all the policemen, and even further, you

12 must organise here in this place, if nothing else, at least for law and

13 order to be observed."

14 A. It is true that I called upon Kadiric to do his duty as police

15 commander, to ensure that law and order were observed. But as the

16 presidency had already issued an order for the Territorial Defence to be

17 organised and mobilised, so this was an order carrying full legality and

18 legitimacy, and knowing that the police forces were part of the armed

19 forces in any state, it is true that I requested him to do this. But what

20 is not true is that I myself said that I was representing the state in

21 this area. This is also an interpretation by the journalist. I would

22 like to point out to Your Honours that the journalist, or the whole group

23 of people that I released this interview to, were people obviously who

24 were not sympathetic to my cause. And it was because I had doubted the

25 authenticity of their article, I requested authorisation before

Page 3871

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Page 3872

1 publishing, but they denied me this possibility and they published the

2 series of articles without my authorisation. So what you have read out

3 right now, I have already explained.

4 Q. Do you know Asim Music, Kemal Alagic, also known as Divljak,

5 Slavko Ecimovic, Major Mirsad Selimbegovic, and Mr. Sead Cirkin?

6 A. Yes. I know all these people, but I met them after the war. That

7 is, some of them I had not known before the war.

8 Q. Were these people in charge of organising military issues in

9 Prijedor municipality?

10 A. Can we just go through their names again to the sake of precision?

11 I think you mentioned another name, Asim Muhic.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Let me just ask the witness whether there's any

13 reason for us to do this in private session. I don't know.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I apologise, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You shouldn't apologise. You agree that it's in

17 private session?

18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I do.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then we go into private session.

20 MR. LUKIC: And I propose that those names be redacted interest

21 the transcript from the open session.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: If they are named in the article, I don't think

23 there's a necessity to redact.

24 MR. LUKIC: These names are not in the article.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Both of them, I could see myself --

Page 3873

1 MR. LUKIC: Not all of them.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So let's only redact those names which are not

3 in the article. Can we go through? It was on line -- we are in private

4 session now, that we don't make another mistake.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3874

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed.

22 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I would like now to tender another

23 document received from the Prosecution.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Could we agree, first of all, that

25 the article you tendered until now, this would go as D8B, and it's only

Page 3875

1 tendered to that extent that it was read out and we have the translation

2 in the transcript. Right?

3 MR. LUKIC: That's right.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then objections?

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. Well, I object. I'd like to point out

6 something regarding that procedure. I don't know, because I don't have a

7 translation, whether the quotes are out of context or whether there are

8 other parts of the article that are relevant. And I don't want to make

9 a -- I'm not accusing counsel of anything, but the Defence can submit this

10 to CLSS for translation, which is part of the registry, not part of the

11 OTP. And I would suggest that any article that's going to be admitted

12 into evidence should be submitted for full translation so that we can find

13 out whether the quotes are in context or out of context.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Until now, we followed the policy also as

15 regards the documents tendered by the OTP to admit only the relevant

16 sections into evidence. And therefore, it is for the OTP, if there is any

17 problem, to come back to this with an entire translation. But until now,

18 let's proceed this way. And therefore, this document is admitted into

19 evidence as D8B. On page 44, in the middle column, the eight last lines,

20 and in the right-hand column, until the 11th last line. On page 45, the

21 left hand column, line 5 to 9; middle column, the 13 last lines; and the

22 right hand column until last line 11 in the middle. And page 46, lines in

23 the right hand column, line 23 to 41. And the translations can be found

24 on today's transcript, page 32.

25 Please proceed.

Page 3876

1 MR. LUKIC: We would like to tender another document.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do we have any 65 ter number?

3 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. I don't think that there is a 65

4 ter, and there is no ERN number either.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

6 MR. LUKIC: We also received this document recently from the OTP.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's the same situation, I believe, from the Tadic

8 appeal submitted by the Defence on that appeal.

9 MR. LUKIC: So I'll try to read portions and ask Dr. Mujadzic to

10 comment on those portions I read.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the record, provisionally D9A and B.

12 MR. LUKIC: It's also handwritten, so I would prefer to read the

13 English version, if you allow it, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mujadzic, these are the minutes. And at the

15 top of the first page, we see what this is about. It says: "Minutes,

16 24th of October, 1991. At the SDA Party of Democratic Action meeting, the

17 following were assigned to weapons duty: Kozarac: Kenjar, Bahonjic;

18 Trnopolje: Sead Sivac; Kozarusa: Tadic; Brdo and Ljubija: Kadiric,

19 Hopovac, Sikiric; Puharska, Rufad Suljanovic."

20 [Interpretation] Can you please help us out with this. What

21 exactly did this mean, when on the 24th of October, 1991, a number of

22 persons were appointed to take charge of certain activities associated

23 with weapons?

24 A. Can you please first explain to me what this really is, because

25 this is the first time I see it.

Page 3877

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Page 3878

1 Q. Will you please go to the last page of the B/C/S version. At the

2 bottom of the page, it says: "M., Mirza."

3 A. Yes, but the document articulated in this way, this could have

4 been written by anyone in Prijedor or in the wider region. I must point

5 out that minutes of the municipal board of the SDA never looked like this

6 document. We can just have a look. The date is stated the 24th of

7 October, 1991. And only a couple of names are given, and then again, the

8 30th of October, 1991. No signature, no recording clerk, no stamp. My

9 signature is not there. No agenda, no attendance. Things that are

10 normally kept and recorded at our meetings. And then several lines later,

11 a different date, the 13th of September, 1991, and then the 20th of

12 November, 1991, out of nowhere. These were not SDA meetings, and I have

13 no idea what this document really is.

14 As I have been well informed by persons who were subjected to most

15 terrible interrogations, false accusations, false documents by the --

16 implanted by the intelligence service, I really don't think that it

17 document belonged to anyone who was a member of the SDA. I would say that

18 this document had nothing to do with anything like that, and it was

19 certainly -- it is certainly not a document of the municipal board of the

20 SDA. I think it's obvious. If you just have a look at the document, you

21 see immediately that it has nothing to do with the municipal board of the

22 SDA.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would the witness be so kind and read out

24 from -- in B/C/S the fourth -- the four-last lines on the second page.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The 12th of May, 1992, meeting in

Page 3879

1 Hambarine for the eventuality that the local commune cannot meet. The

2 decision is reached by Refik, crossed out, Sefik Krkic and C. Pezo, M.

3 Mirza." So the names of Camil Pezo, Sefik Krkic, and M. Mirza were

4 mentioned.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that Mr. Kenjar and Mr. Bahonjic

8 were in charge of obtaining weapons for Kozarac?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know that Mr. Sead Sivac was in charge of obtaining weapons

11 for Trnopolje?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Are you familiar with the fact Mr. Tadic was in charge of

14 obtaining weapons for Kozarusa?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Are you aware of the fact that gentlemen Kadiric, Hopovac, and

17 Sikiric, were in charge of obtaining weapons for the Brdo area and

18 Ljubija?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know that Mr. Rufad Suljanovic was in charge of obtaining

21 weapons for Puharska?

22 A. No. Are you stating that they were, and do you have any proof of

23 that? Because your question was not a question; it was a statement.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, just to interrupt, could -- to be on the

25 safe side, could the witness be himself read out the first two lines of

Page 3880

1 the B/C/S version.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is quite illegible. I would

3 prefer to stick to the English translation, if you agree. I will give it

4 my best.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would caution -- inform the Court, as far as I

6 know, I don't believe this is an official translation. I could be wrong,

7 but I think they are only official if there is an ERN number attached to

8 the document.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As you may know, there is some knowledge of the

10 language on the Bench as well. Therefore, in case of doubt, we would ask

11 kindly that you try to read at least.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do my best. "For

13 weapons" -- this next word I really can't make out. Then the next word is

14 "SDA." And then probably "in charge. Kozarac, Kenya Bahonjic;

15 Trnopolje, Sead Sivac; Kozarusa, Tadic" --

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Stop here. We can already identify a certain

17 discrepancy between that what we heard and can read in the transcript, and

18 that we can read in the English version. So therefore, it's better when

19 we come back to this document to start with the B/C/S version, please.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Since Mr. Mujadzic is not aware of the document --

22 A. What is sure is that a document of this kind cannot be a document

23 emanating from the SDA. Normally, in cases of official meetings of the

24 SDA, one would have the indication whether the board in question was a

25 local one or a municipal one. There would have been other indications

Page 3881

1 pointing to the authenticity of the document. This is simply a record

2 made by someone. It could be just about anyone's note coming from the

3 person who was also perhaps ill-intentioned. You could have written a

4 document of this kind yourself. Is there anything in this document that

5 tells us about the fact that it can be linked to the SDA?

6 Q. Did you know Mr. Camil Pezo?

7 A. Yes, he was a member of the SDA Executive Board.

8 Q. Was he a member of the SDA Crisis Staff?

9 A. As for the SDA Crisis Staff that you mentioned yesterday, this

10 Crisis Staff, the SDA Crisis Staff, had nothing to do with any state

11 competence as it was established after a number of events which led to the

12 establishment of such a body. The SDA Crisis Staff was set up after

13 Radovan Karadzic's threats and after the intentions of the general staff

14 to carry out a putsch became manifest. This was the intention of several

15 officers within the leadership of the military. And also, there was an

16 idea promoted by several JNA officers that leaders of the SDA should be

17 arrested and their property confiscated. That was the reason for the

18 establishment of this body. Its objective was to guarantee the safety of

19 the party and its members. This staff can by no means be linked to the

20 Crisis Staff whose president was Milomir Stakic.

21 Q. Is it possible that this Crisis Staff was established on the 23rd

22 of September, 1991?

23 A. I believe that it took place much later, but I don't remember the

24 exact date.

25 Q. You stated in your testimony on Tuesday, page 46, line 12 of

Page 3882

1 Tuesday's transcript the following: "The only possibility that I saw at

2 the time was to evacuate the population from the occupied area to the

3 territory of western Krajina which, at the time, was under the control of

4 the BH Territorial Defence which would later become the army of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina."

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Bench would like to follow. You said 46,

7 line 12.

8 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Yes.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: An extract, as I've already said before.

10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. As I extracted it, I tried to avoid

11 this, as I've already said before.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: "The only possibility I could see" --

13 MR. LUKIC: I can read it in English --

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Page 40 [as interpreted], line 12: [In English] "The only

17 possibility I could see was to evacuate the population from the occupied

18 area to the area of the western Krajina, then controlled by the

19 Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was later to become

20 the BH army."

21 [Interpretation] Is this true, Dr. Mujadzic?

22 A. Yes, it is. This is what I stated.

23 Q. So at the time, there was a territory which was controlled by the

24 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina which was called at the time the

25 Territorial Defence?

Page 3883

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Page 3884

1 A. Please, do not misinterpret my statement. Would you please read

2 the text as it is stated.

3 Q. Was there a territory at the time which was controlled by the

4 Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

5 A. Yes, there was.

6 Q. On page 46, line 22 of the same transcript, you spoke about the

7 period of time which followed the takeover. I will read it in English.

8 [In English] "That's why I allowed a negotiating team to be set up,

9 although I took no part in this myself because I thought it was

10 pointless."

11 [Interpretation] You said that you had allowed for this

12 negotiating team to be set up.

13 A. I'm sorry, but I have to ask you to read the exact words of my

14 testimony once again.

15 Q. [In English] "That's why I allowed the negotiating team to be set

16 up, although I took no part in this myself because I thought it was

17 pointless."

18 [Interpretation] Did they address you with the permission to do

19 this?

20 A. Well, the word "allow" in the English language can be translated

21 differently. I think that I originally said in B/C/S that I permitted,

22 and not allowed. These two words have different meanings in my language.

23 In the English language, they can be synonyms.

24 But let me explain the context of my statement at the time. It is

25 true that there was a group of people who believed that an agreement could

Page 3885

1 be reached through negotiations with the newly established Serbian

2 municipality and the SDS Crisis Staff. But I indicated that the group of

3 people who thought that this was unreasonable and senseless was more

4 numerous. So if we should follow a democratic procedure, then my opinion

5 was a majority one. Had the decision been made to this effect, then there

6 would have been no negotiations. Then it would have been decided that

7 there would be no negotiations.

8 However, my influence could be felt all the same because I

9 permitted this minority to negotiate in order not to miss even the

10 slightest opportunity, slightest possibility, to avoid the conflict. This

11 is what I had in mind when I testified about this.

12 Q. I simply wanted to ask you whether you had any say in the setting

13 up of this negotiating team.

14 A. As I have already indicated, the majority was against, but that I

15 made sure that those people who were in favour of negotiations were

16 allowed to negotiate.

17 Q. You said that you had sent your family to Croatia. I think the

18 date in question was the 13th of April, 1992. Were you the only person

19 who had any inkling about the upcoming events, or were there other people

20 who removed their families from Prijedor at the time?

21 A. At that time, a large number of buses were leaving with the

22 Prijedor residents who were leaving the town because they knew what was

23 going to happen. As I said, there were local bus lines who carried people

24 out of Prijedor. So obviously, I was not the one only who had done that.

25 There were many similar cases.

Page 3886

1 Q. My apologies. Something is missing from the interpretation. You

2 said that even some extraordinary bus lines had been introduced. This is

3 not in the record.

4 A. I didn't say that anyone had introduced such extraordinary bus

5 lines. I simply said that due to the overall demand, private bus owners,

6 private -- small, private transport companies on their own had introduced

7 such extraordinary bus lines.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's necessary to have a break now. But

9 before we do this, we have still before us four sheets of paper tendered

10 by the Defence.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, I know Your Honours' criteria for the

12 admission of documents does not relate to authenticity. It is not a

13 criteria. However, I would just like to point out on this document the

14 20th November, 1991 entry, written with the UN and The Hague, and just

15 point out that this is several years before the establishment of this

16 Tribunal.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It has been stated earlier by the parties that,

18 and, of course, the Bench is aware, that numerous documents are on the

19 market which may be not correct, may be correct, and, of course, it's for

20 the evaluation --

21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, if I may.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- It's for the evaluation of evidence later on

23 to decide on the contents of the authenticity. No doubt, the witness

24 already pointed out some perspectives. But please.

25 MR. LUKIC: The witness offered us the explanation, and I see also

Page 3887

1 that this document is not reliable, does not carry out reliability, so the

2 Defence would not offer this document into evidence. We would not.

3 Because I can't see how we would be able to use it.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We will decide after the break on this point.

5 Thank you.

6 We resume at 12.45.

7 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

10 Before we proceed, I have to announce a decision of the Bench,

11 that the document that was provisionally marked as D9 will be admitted

12 into evidence as Document J3. The reason for this is, of course, that we

13 have to know what is explained by the witness in the transcript, and in

14 case we need it later on for the proof, if any, that there might be

15 documents on the market that might be not correct, to put it this way. We

16 have to go probably into details, but first of all, the purpose is that we

17 can find out what was the witness' statement and what was the basis

18 therefore.

19 Then the cross-examination may proceed.

20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Mujadzic, do you know where Dr. Stakic comes

22 from, from which town?

23 A. According to what I know, he comes from Omarska.

24 Q. Is there a large partisan cemetery in Omarska?

25 A. I don't know about that cemetery.

Page 3888

1 Q. Do you know that the 1st Krajina Proletarian Brigade was

2 established in Omarska and had residents of Omarska and neighbouring

3 villages as its members?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. Do you know that the name of Milomir Stakic's grandfather, Milos

6 Stakic, is carved in stone together with the names of other partisans at

7 the monument at Mrakovica?

8 A. This is the first time I hear that.

9 Q. Military units in Travnik and Bihac, did they also have medical

10 corps?

11 A. Yes, they did.

12 Q. Were you a member of this medical corps?

13 A. No, I was not.

14 Q. Your parents spent some time in Trnopolje. Is it true?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Did they eventually leave Trnopolje; and if so, when?

17 A. I don't know exactly when they left Trnopolje, but they did at one

18 point in time. If necessary, in private session, I can explain the

19 circumstances of that.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we go into private session, please.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3889

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Page 3891

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

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8 (redacted)

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10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed. You may proceed.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Do you know how many weapons were surrendered to the army after

20 the army and the Territorial Defence clash in Hambarine?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did any of the people from Hambarine go to the Kurevo woods with

23 weapons? Do you know anything about that?

24 A. Yes, I've heard about it, although I never found out the exact

25 number of these people, nor their precise location, nor how they were

Page 3892

1 grouped. I only mentioned in my testimony that we tried to get in touch

2 with them.

3 Q. You worked in Bihac after you left the Prijedor area. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes. That's correct.

6 Q. Was there a camp for Serbs in Bihac?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Were there any refugees from Bihac in Prijedor?

9 A. I do not have any information on that.

10 Q. Are you currently cooperating with the information and

11 documentation agency of the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12 A. No, I'm not.

13 Q. Did you before cooperate with the Yugoslavia state security?

14 A. God forbid.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I hereby conclude my examination of

16 the witness. Mr. Mujadzic, I thank you for your effort in answering our

17 questions. Your Honours, we have no further questions.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. What about re-examination?

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Very brief. I want to leave time for Your Honours.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

21 Q. Witness, in the document D7 -- I don't know if you have that

22 before you, D7 -- there is a reference in that document to civil

23 disobedience. I think you can answer this question without the document

24 at this point. Was there any talk among any members of the SDA of a

25 campaign of civil disobedience in Prijedor?

Page 3893

1 A. Yes. That was the original idea of Muhamed Cehajic, and there

2 were other people who advocated this idea.

3 Q. Did Mr. Cehajic use a term to describe that besides the words

4 "civil disobedience"? Did he use a term to describe that campaign?

5 A. Yes. He said a Ghandi-like resistance.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, I don't know if this is worth the

7 time. I wanted to point out several quotes from D7, but if the item

8 itself is in the record, I could do that when the witness is not present,

9 or just point out to Your Honours in our final submissions.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Otherwise, you would leave the question for us.

11 So please feel free.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN:

13 Q. Going to D7, do you have that now before you?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. On the very first page, under the 30th of April, after the quote

16 by Beco, meaning Becir Medunjanin, there is a proposal: "Since we have a

17 lot of people without weapons, men should leave the weapons, as they leave

18 the shift." Can you explain that? If that makes sense to you, from what

19 you know about the situation.

20 A. Can you please just remind me where is this exactly on the page?

21 Q. On the first page, at the top, the second item is "proposal." Do

22 you have D7? It should have the number --

23 A. Yes, I do. Yes, that's correct. This speaks for itself, speaks

24 about the facts at that time in Kozarac and Prijedor. There were not

25 enough weapons for everyone, for all men of military age. There was only

Page 3894

1 an insufficient number of weapons, so people left their own weapons after

2 leaving the shift so these weapons could be used by others who take over.

3 Q. I'll now just refer to a few other portions of this document and

4 ask you after I've finished all of those references to comment. On the

5 same page, attributed to Kemal Fazlic, it states "Is there a plan? No.

6 Kozarac will not defended by arms. Therefore, everything should be

7 undertaken before opening fire. Wisdom is needed." About four or five

8 lines down is the number 1, "the issue of the ultimatum for surrendering

9 weapons. No surrender. We shall only respond if attacked." On the next

10 page, page 2, about the bottom one third of that page, on the upper right,

11 it's page 326, it's handwritten, attributed to Kenjar S., "civil

12 disobedience should also be discussed with the other areas. In Kozarac,

13 some guys are provoking too much."

14 On page 325, the second quote, attributed Suljo: "If Kozarusa does

15 not receive help it will surrender at all the checkpoints." And then on

16 page 320, with the date on the top, 6 June, 1992, under miscellaneous,

17 there's a statement attributed to (redacted). "We have established the peace

18 headquarters consisting of" -- and it appears to be either whited out or

19 illegible for some reason -- "members taken from all parties operating in

20 the area. We have published a declaration and a written statement which

21 has been broadcast on the radio. Copies of both the declaration and the

22 statement have been submitted to Hamdija Kahrimanovic. A team with a

23 mixed membership has been all current problems ranging from shooting

24 incidents to economic issues. Duties and patrols have been introduced.

25 Mixed patrols for the protection of all citizens in the Kozarusa local

Page 3895

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Page 3896

1 commune have been established. There should not be any conflict among us

2 until the status of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina has been resolved."

3 On page 318, in the middle of the page, attributed to Velic: "We

4 are doing everything we can to preserve the peace, but it seems we are not

5 going to succeed." And I believe the next quote I was going to have was

6 on page 315, Bahonjic, but you have already read that to us. On page 313,

7 there's a statement attributed to Pasic, the second speaker, and the last

8 two lines are: "I propose we are not in favour of war, but we are unable

9 to set up a municipality. I do not believe that weapons should be given

10 up, nor will I sign a statement of loyalty."

11 Doctor, are these quotes, that I've just given, consistent with

12 your recollection of the position of various members of the SDA prior to

13 the outbreak of a full conflict and the attack on Kozarac on the 24th of

14 May?

15 A. That is precisely what I tried to say, in as many words. There

16 were a number of different opinions, but all these opinions could be

17 roughly divided into two camps. Those who believed that something could

18 be achieved by negotiating with the aggressor, and those who believed that

19 whatever was done, there would have been a predetermined scenario in

20 response to it, and that the Serbian army, that is, the SDS, would

21 continue as planned. It is clear from these testimonies that you have now

22 read, it really was like that. Both sides, regardless of everything, made

23 enormous efforts to preserve peace and to avoid conflicts, as best as they

24 could. Because everyone knew that they didn't really stand a chance of

25 resisting such a modern and well-equipped and well-armed army.

Page 3897

1 Q. In private session, you told us about something that happened at

2 Trnopolje with your parents. How did your parents get to the Trnopolje

3 camp?

4 A. How should I say? There was a general order -- I'm not sure

5 whether it was an order, but the Serbian Municipality of Prijedor

6 evacuated all the population and transferred most of the population to the

7 Trnopolje camp, and then from that camp, people were selected, so to

8 speak. People who were on their lists, on their wanted lists, and many

9 other people who were on no lists. They just happened by a guard's

10 arrogance or by the arrogant behaviour of people who served as guards in

11 the camp. So these people were selected randomly sent to the camps and

12 killed in the Omarska camp, which was much worse than the Trnopolje camp.

13 Many girls were raped there.

14 Q. You've answered my question. Just in the interests of time, I'm

15 trying to keep it short.

16 What happened to the home that your parents were living in, your

17 family home?

18 A. Theirs was the first house in Prijedor. On the 23rd of May when

19 the tanks set out for Hambarine, the first house to be shelled, the first

20 house that was burned and destroyed. Although there was no reason for

21 that. The whole town was empty.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, I have no further questions on

24 redirect.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

Page 3898

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: During your testimony, you mentioned two names,

3 Dr. Zeljko Sikora, and Dr. Sadikovic. Could you please tell us the fate

4 of both persons.

5 A. They were both killed in the Omarska camp.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know this for sure, or are they still

7 missing persons?

8 A. Dr. Sadikovic, the body that was identified as the body of Dr.

9 Sadikovic, was dug up recently in the Sanski Most area. As for Dr.

10 Sikora, several other witnesses from the Omarska camp stated, confirmed,

11 that they saw him killed.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You mentioned your relation to Dr. Zeljko

13 Sikora, but not the one to Dr. Sadikovic. Could you please explain what

14 was the role of Dr. Sadikovic, what was his profession?

15 A. Dr. Sadikovic was a very well-trained, educated physician. He

16 worked in Africa as a UN physician. He came from a well-respected local

17 family from Prijedor. We were close friends. And we knew each other

18 quite well. Dr. Sadikovic assumed a fully neutral position. His wife was

19 Serbian. And he never, in any sense, joined the SDA, or never had any

20 political commitment at all, in any party. He made enormous efforts to

21 preserve peace in Prijedor. Have I answered your question, Your Honours?

22 Perhaps there was something I haven't mentioned.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. As you mentioned a number

24 of issues exhaustively, I have to jump from one issue to the other,

25 unfortunately. The next would be, was the police station part of the

Page 3899

1 centre for state security in Banja Luka or not?

2 A. Yes, it was. It was part of the Security Services Centre in Banja

3 Luka.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Are you quite sure? Because in an unofficial,

5 of course, summary, it is said that the police station was not a part of

6 the centre for state security in Banja Luka, as Prijedor did not join the

7 Serb Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina.

8 A. Yes. I think this needs clarification. Officially, the Ministry

9 of Internal Affairs of Bosnia-Herzegovina is organised, is based --

10 divided into the central Ministry in Sarajevo which had regional security

11 services centres in Banja Luka, Tuzla, Sarajevo, Mostar, Zenica, Doboj, in

12 several different areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Each of these regional

13 centres had under its authority public security stations. The

14 establishment of the Autonomous Region of Krajina following the

15 establishment, the leaders of the regional centre of Banja Luka security

16 services separated itself from the legal framework of the Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina ministry. As the minister sent many of his decisions to

18 public security stations, thereby bypassing the regional centres whose

19 role was more to coordinate. The Prijedor police station wanted to

20 continue to maintain its links with the legal ministry in Sarajevo. Our

21 proposal was, in order to overcome the situation, as the newly established

22 police centre in the Autonomous Region of Krajina demanded that all

23 communications with Sarajevo be stopped, and that the only orders to be

24 obeyed were those coming from the police of the Autonomous Region of

25 Krajina. So the proposal was to continue subordination to Sarajevo, but

Page 3900

1 that a degree of coordination was to be established also with the police

2 of the Krajina region so that clashes may be avoided.

3 But apart from that, the police of the Autonomous Region of

4 Krajina denied its own legality by separating from the central Ministry,

5 The Sarajevo Ministry of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm not sure how successful

6 I've been in explaining the nature of these relationships.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have to thank you for this clarification.

8 Could you please, if you know, tell us who was superior to the commanders

9 responsible in Omarska or Keraterm?

10 A. Do you mean direct superior authority? To the best of my

11 knowledge, the commander of the Omarska camp was Milan Kovacevic, also

12 known as Mico. And the commander of the Trnopolje camp was Slobodan

13 Kuruzovic.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: They had to obey the orders of which persons?

15 A. They took orders from the Crisis Staff. As I have already

16 testified in a number of documents, for example, the order, the

17 prohibition to release prisoners from the Omarska camp, bearing the

18 signature of the Crisis Staff, where it is obvious that the Crisis Staff

19 is behind this decision, and it also enclaves the relationship of

20 subordination of the Omarska camp staff, command staff, to the Crisis

21 Staff.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Crisis Staff on which level?

23 A. In this specific case, it was the Crisis Staff at the level of

24 Prijedor municipality, but some of the decisions came from the Autonomous

25 Region of Krajina Crisis Staff.

Page 3901

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What role, if any, played the police in the

2 camps, the municipal police?

3 A. If you think back, Your Honours, there was a document presented --

4 there was an order to the police to set up the camp in Omarska, and there

5 are several other orders than I cannot recall at the moment.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm aware of this, but please understand, we

7 can't rely only, as I pointed out vis-a-vis the Defence already, we can't

8 rely on statute only or order. The question is whether or not these

9 orders were executed and what do you know yourself about the facts?

10 A. I believe that in practice, Simo Drljaca's police were more than

11 obedient as concerns their orders.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I withdraw the question with your answer would

13 be only based on hearsay. Can you tell us something about the takeover of

14 the television transmitter on Kozara mountain?

15 A. According to our information, the transmitter was taken over by

16 the JNA. Some of our people went there to see what was happening, and

17 they saw that the transmitter was guarded by the army.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The person of Dr. Stakic, what was your

19 impression? You were quoted as saying that Dr. Stakic was a quiet person,

20 but had hard-line beliefs. Can you explain this a little bit.

21 A. My familiarity with Dr. Stakic from the prewar period and my

22 impression of him as a man who was in no way different from everyone else.

23 So as far as his character is concerned, he was a stable person, a quiet

24 person. However, later on, in my conversations with him, after the

25 Serbian municipality was founded or when the reserve military came back

Page 3902

1 from Croatia and carried out acts of provocation in Prijedor, the whole

2 sequence of events, I tried to talk to him on several occasions. I

3 appealed to our friendship, to our sense of companionship, because we were

4 both physicians. It was then that I understood from our conversations two

5 different things: Firstly, that Stakic was firmly convinced that whatever

6 he did, whatever he did, he did out of conviction, because he really

7 believed in it. And his convictions were those of the Karadzic

8 hardliners.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you compare the roles of Mr. Miskovic and Dr.

10 Stakic, as regards their influence in the so-called takeover in Prijedor,

11 whom do you regard as more influential?

12 A. In my opinion, I believe that Mr. Miskovic, at the time of the

13 takeover, was the most influential person in the SDS. However, I find it

14 very interesting that Mr. Miskovic later does not appear as a member of

15 the Crisis Staff. At that time, it surprised me because, judging by his

16 convictions and the influence he exerted, he appeared likely to be a

17 member of that body and be in it, rather than behind it.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What is your actual role in politics, if any, in

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: The question is today. Is that correct?

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Today, yes.

22 A. Since the end of the war, that is, since the Dayton accords, as I

23 completed my mandate as a deputy, I finished my political commitment and

24 my political involvement. I never considered myself as a politician. My

25 only reason for getting involved in these, let us call them political

Page 3903

1 events, although they were much more than that, was to contribute to

2 democratic changes taking place in the former Yugoslavia. But the later

3 course of events led to all the things that you're also familiar with. So

4 transported on a wave of these events, I stayed in politics until 1996,

5 until the end of the war. As soon as the war ended, I went back to my

6 daily job and was no longer involved in politics.

7 Currently, I am (redacted)and have nothing

8 to do with any of the political structures in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The residence may be redacted from the

10 transcript, please.

11 Thank you. Judge Fassi Fihri, please.

12 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Witness, you finished the

13 examination-in-chief on Tuesday, the 28th of May, by saying that Dr.

14 Stakic was promoting hatred between the communities and was undermining

15 any feeling of tolerance between the communities. Could you tell us what

16 are the elements that allow you to be so affirmative in your statement?

17 A. Your Honour, if possible, could you refer me to this portion in my

18 testimony. I don't remember having stated something to that effect.

19 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] It was on the transcript, last

20 page, if you want I can read out exactly what you said. "That's why

21 Karadzic fully trusted Dr. Stakic, because Dr. Stakic comes from an area

22 that is dominated by the Chetnik. He tried to introduce a gap between the

23 Serbians and the Bosnians, and he tried to undermine the feeling of

24 tolerance and the conviction that it was possible for these two

25 communities to live together in the area. By killing so many people, he

Page 3904

1 wanted to promote hatred amongst the population that could only be an

2 obstacle to the possibility for these communities in the area to live

3 together."

4 A. My statement indicates that Stakic was a trusted person, a trusted

5 man by Karadzic. The proof of that can be found in the fact that he was

6 elected as member of the Executive Board and was part of the leadership of

7 the SDS, also the fact that he was appointed to the Crisis Staff as its

8 member, which could not be done without the approval of the centre, which

9 all means that Dr. Karadzic trusted Stakic. That concerns the first part

10 of my statement.

11 But the second part concerns Dr. Karadzic. I was talking about

12 Dr. Karadzic when I said that "he was trying to create a rift between the

13 two communities" which had, in the past, been tolerant of each other by

14 having this large number of people killed, and it is true that a large

15 number of people were killed in Prijedor.

16 This tolerance, this traditional tolerance has, therefore, been

17 undermined in the area of Prijedor. I never said that Dr. Stakic

18 personally incited hatred and attempted to undermine tolerance in the

19 area. I just refer to him as a trusted person by Dr. Karadzic, and I

20 believe that I explained this to the Chamber. But that the idea of the

21 destruction of this local and traditional tolerance came from Dr.

22 Karadzic. And I also explained how he implemented this plan, this idea,

23 by killing several thousands of people in Prijedor.

24 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your

25 explanation.

Page 3905

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Vassylenko.

2 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Dr. Mujadzic, in your testimony on Monday,

3 pages 15 and 55 of the transcript, you mentioned Serbian Radical Party

4 established in Prijedor, which in 1990 entered an election coalition with

5 the Serbian Democratic Party and stated that Mr. Stakic was also involved

6 in setting up of the Serbian Radical Party. In this respect, can you tell

7 us in more detail, what was the Serbian Radical Party and its programme?

8 A. Serbian Radical Party is a royalist party in its nature and

9 programme. They based their ideas on some basic principles of the

10 royalistic movement which was led during the Second World War by Draza

11 Mihajlovic and his military, that is, the Chetniks and their formations.

12 These Chetnik formations during the First World War, not the second one

13 but the First World War, did indeed play a major role in defending the

14 kingdom of Serbia at the time. And in that respect, one can argue that

15 they played a very positive role. However, during the Second World War,

16 these units perpetrated atrocious crimes against non-Serb population in

17 the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And not only Bosnia-Herzegovina, but also

18 Serbia and Montenegro. Let me mention, for instance, the crime which was

19 committed in Foca, when, in one single day, 7.000 Bosniaks were killed.

20 So by establishing this kind of party in Omarska, the party with this kind

21 of tradition and this kind of background, the Bosniak population became

22 mistrustful.

23 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: What was the position and role of Dr. Stakic in

24 the Serbian Radical Party?

25 A. I don't have much information on that really.

Page 3906

1 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: On what condition the Serbian Radical Party

2 entered the coalition with the SDS?

3 A. Stojan Vracar who, according to what I know was the president of

4 the Serbian Radical Party, was in a preelection coalition with the Serbian

5 Democratic Party. He was given a position of the candidate, a joint

6 candidate, of the SDS and the Serbian Radical Party. He was nominated as

7 a deputy to the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Some other members of

8 the Serbian Radical Party were also on the same list with the Serbian

9 Democratic Party and the Serbian Democratic Alliance for the municipal

10 level of elections. So it was a classical type of a party coalition.

11 Later on, after the first government was installed, after the

12 election, and this is something that I'm not quite sure about, I do not

13 have any reliable information on that, and it is perhaps worth exploring,

14 but I think that Dr. Stakic became the vice-president of the municipality

15 on behalf of this coalition, the coalition of the Serbian Democratic Party

16 and the Serbian Radical Party, as a representative of the Serbian Radical

17 Party. Once again, I am emphasising the fact that this is something that

18 I'm not sure about. I'm basing this on something that I heard from other

19 people, but I am sure that this can be checked if necessary.

20 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Okay. In your testimony, you also mentioned

21 the Patriotic League, headed by Mr. Halilovic. Can you tell us, what was

22 the Patriotic League? Was it a party or some other entity?

23 A. The Patriotic League is an organisation of patriots of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina who share the same idea, that is, the defence of their

25 homeland, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Having had the experience of Slovenia,

Page 3907

1 which thanks to a very high level of organisation and preparedness,

2 managed to oppose the JNA and repel its aggression, a segment of

3 population, comprising some free-thinking citizens and some former JNA

4 officers, thought that it would be very useful and good to establish an

5 organisation such as the Patriotic League. Its coat of arms was the

6 traditional coat of arms of the Kotramanic Dynasty. This coat of arms had

7 a blue background and golden fleur-de-lys, which is an influence of the

8 Anjou dynasty, and traditional relations between this dynasty and the

9 Anjou dynasty. In France, it tells of a long-standing history of

10 relationship between my country and that part of Europe. And this

11 Patriotic League gathered, as I said, a large number of patriots or the

12 people who considered Bosnia and Herzegovina to be their homeland.

13 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Do you know the first name of Mr. Halilovic,

14 and did Mr. Halilovic ever hold any position in the government of Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina?

16 A. Yes, I know his name. Sefer, Sefer Halilovic. He was later

17 appointed by the presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina as the commander of

18 the main staff of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: In your testimony on Tuesday, transcript page

20 52, you stated that on the 16th of May, a public communique was made to

21 the effect that the former JNA, in the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was no

22 longer Yugoslav People's Army but was being renamed into the Serbian army.

23 Did the Serbian army become the army of the Republika Srpska?

24 A. With the withdrawal of the JNA from Slovenia and Croatia, the

25 majority of the JNA personnel were stationed in the area of Bosnia and

Page 3908

1 Herzegovina. A significant number of officers from Serbia, officers who,

2 by virtue of their birth did not belong to Bosnia and Herzegovina, found

3 themselves in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. At that time, this

4 was both de facto and de jure Yugoslav People's Army. Later on, this

5 organisation proclaimed itself Serbian army, together with the local

6 forces and the reservists from the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Of

7 course, members of the Serb population, the Serbian community.

8 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Who became the commander in chief of that army

9 and to whom he was subordinated and reported to?

10 A. The first commander of the Serbian army -- I'm sorry, I cannot

11 remember who the first commander of the Serbian army was. There have been

12 several of them after it was declared the Serbian army. So I cannot

13 remember the first one. I know that he was responsible to the president

14 of the Serbian republic, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

15 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And what was the relationship between the

16 Serbian army and the Crisis Staff of ARK?

17 A. To illustrate this relationship, I should like to give you an

18 example of what I was able to hear on a tape which, at one point in time,

19 was given to us deputies, to the parliament. It was actually given to me

20 by the Minister of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The tape was

21 the recording of a conversation between Radovan Karadzic and the command

22 of what was then still the JNA at the time of the aggression against

23 Croatia. It was a lengthy conversation, but let me briefly tell you about

24 its contents. The Serb population apparently did not respond to the

25 mobilisation which was ordered by JNA at the time in large enough numbers.

Page 3909

1 There had even been several incidents which were likely to lead to an

2 overall rebellion amongst the organised conscripts. I believe it was

3 Colonel Kostic who then called Karadzic and asked him to intervene

4 urgently and to use his political influence to calm people down and to

5 convince them to accept the mobilisation into the JNA. In subsequent

6 contacts after the JNA, which was situated and located in Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina, declared itself to be the Serbian army, they placed

8 themselves under the command of the then proclaimed president of the

9 Serbian republic, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

10 As for the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and

11 the commander of the Serbian army, now, I don't know whether you're

12 referring only to the corps of the Banja Luka region, to the command of

13 the Banja Luka corps or...?

14 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: On the republican level and the municipal

15 level, let us say.

16 A. As regards the republican level, it was Radovan Karadzic who was

17 de facto the civilian commander of the army of the Serbian republic. As

18 for the local level, no doubt there was close cooperation between the two.

19 However, since the hierarchy within the military is a direct one in terms

20 of operations and specific military actions, such orders and instructions

21 always came from the main staff of the army and from the leadership of

22 Republika Srpska; whereas at the local level, this cooperation was

23 somewhat different. Local politicians were able to have influence over

24 the military who were stationed in their area.

25 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you.

Page 3910

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any other questions from the side of the parties

2 emanating only from the responses of the witness to the questions put

3 forward by the Judges? I can see no other questions. Then it remains

4 only for me to thank you very much for your patience and for all your

5 information given through the last four days.

6 The trial stays adjourned until Tuesday, 3.00 in the afternoon.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

9 1.55 p.m., to be reconvened on

10 Tuesday, the 4th day of June, 2002,

11 at 3.00 p.m.

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