1 Tuesday, 4 June 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 3.01 p.m.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, everybody. May we please hear
6 the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T,
8 the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the appearances, please.
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian
11 with Ann Sutherland, assisted by Ruth Karper, for the Prosecution.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And for the Defence?
13 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and Mr.
14 John Ostojic for the Defence.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon. Any indispensable issues to
16 raise before we start?
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just the witness has some protective measures, the
18 next witness.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And it is Witness Q. We agree? Okay. Then the
20 witness may be brought in.
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: And the witness does have image distortion. That
22 is prepared?
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Only image.
24 Could we have the first break, then, quarter past 4.00.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, in the meantime, the Defence is
2 prepared to discuss the issue of signatures tomorrow, as planned?
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour. We have scheduled an
4 appointment to meet with our client tomorrow at approximately 10.00, and
5 me and my learned friend are going to exchange hopefully this afternoon
6 the exact statements in which there might be a dispute. Then tomorrow
7 afternoon, we will be able to advise the Court of that.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
9 [The witness entered court].
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon. Can you hear me in a language
11 you understand?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you then, please, give the solemn
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please be seated. And first of all,
18 my apologies -- first of all, my apologies. You are a protected witness,
19 and therefore, we will not call you as your name, but only "Witness Q."
20 It's not very polite, but it is for your protection. Please understand.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. Thanks.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the examination-in-chief may start, please.
23 WITNESS: WITNESS Q
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher, could you please move the ELMO to the
2 side, please.
3 Q. Madam, I'm going to show you a piece of paper which has your name
4 on it. Can you please confirm that that is your name without saying your
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: If this piece of paper can be shown to the
7 Defence, before the witness, and the Bench.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is indeed my name.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, could we go into private session to
10 ask the witness some background information, please.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be, just for clarification, Exhibit
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No objections.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: No objection, Your Honour.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: And obviously that would you be under seal.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence and under seal.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. And private session enough, or closed
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Private session is fine.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No objection. Then please, private session.
23 [Private session].
1 Q. (redacted)
2 A. (redacted)
3 Q. (redacted)
4 A. (redacted)
5 Q. (redacted)
6 A. (redacted)
7 Q. (redacted)
8 A. (redacted)
9 Q. (redacted)
10 A. (redacted)
11 Q. (redacted)
12 A. (redacted)
13 Q. (redacted)
14 A. (redacted)
15 Q. (redacted)
16 A. (redacted)
17 Q. (redacted)
18 A. (redacted)
19 Q. (redacted)
21 A (redacted)
23 Q. (redacted)
24 A. (redacted)
25 Q. (redacted)
12 Page 3915 – redacted – private session.
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And we may continue.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND:
21 Q. Madam, we have just moved into open session, so please try to
22 remember not to mention anything that would reveal your identity. And if
23 that is required, then we can go into private session before you do that.
24 Do you understand?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Do you recall the day of the takeover of Prijedor by the Serbian
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Did you go to Prijedor on that day?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. What did you see?
7 A. I saw the military around the town.
8 Q. Where were they stationed?
9 A. All over the town.
10 Q. Were there any checkpoints set up in Prijedor?
11 A. Yes, there were.
12 Q. Where were they?
13 A. At the entrance to Prijedor, and also all over the town.
14 Q. Did your husband lose his job?
15 A. Yes, he did.
16 Q. Do you recall approximately when this was?
17 A. On the 23rd of May.
18 Q. Do you know of other non-Serbs who lost their employment?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Approximately how many people do you know that lost their jobs?
21 A. All those who worked in Prijedor who were Muslims, all of them
22 lost their jobs.
23 Q. All the people that you knew?
24 A. Yes, that's true.
25 Q. Do you remember an attack, a shelling, on Hambarine in May 1992?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. I want to direct your attention to the evening prior to the
3 shelling. What happened that night?
4 A. Five shells fell near where I was standing.
5 Q. Were any buildings damaged?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Which buildings were these?
8 A. Mostly the mosque and the surroundings of the mosque.
9 Q. What, if anything, did you hear on Radio Prijedor in relation to
10 these five shells?
11 A. We were told to surrender.
12 Q. Were you told what would happen if you didn't surrender?
13 A. Yes, we were.
14 Q. What did you hear on the radio?
15 A. They said they would keep on shelling us, that we had time until
16 noon the following day.
17 Q. What happened at noon the following day?
18 A. The shelling began again.
19 Q. How long did the shelling last for?
20 A. The worst of the shelling lasted for about two hours.
21 Q. During that two-hour period, was the shelling continuous or
23 A. It was continuous.
24 Q. Do you know from what direction the shelling was coming?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. What direction was it coming from?
2 A. From the Topic Brdo and from the Prijedor airport.
3 Q. Do you know in what part of Prijedor the airport is located, the
4 name of the area?
5 A. I do not know exactly.
6 Q. How did you come to know what direction the shelling was coming
8 A. My husband was outside, and he knew everything.
9 Q. Where did you go when the shelling began?
10 A. We were in the cellar.
11 Q. How many of you were in the cellar?
12 A. There were many of us, women and children.
13 Q. How long did you stay in the cellar?
14 A. We stayed for two and a half hours.
15 Q. Then where did you go?
16 A. We went to the woods, the Kurevo woods.
17 Q. As you left the house, what did you see?
18 A. We saw tanks and soldiers passing by.
19 Q. How many tanks were there?
20 A. I, myself, saw three.
21 Q. Approximately how many men did you see?
22 A. There were quite many soldiers. I didn't count them exactly, but
23 there were lots of them.
24 Q. How were these soldiers dressed?
25 A. They were wearing multicoloured uniforms.
1 Q. Were they armed?
2 A. Yes, they were.
3 Q. What sort of arms did they have, if you know?
4 A. They had automatic rifles.
5 Q. When you saw them, as you left the house heading towards the
6 woods, what were the soldiers doing?
7 A. They were shooting after us.
8 Q. Did you see what the tanks were doing?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Can you tell the Court what the tanks -- what was happening with
11 the tanks at the time?
12 A. They were firing at the houses. They were destroying the houses.
13 Q. How were they destroying the houses?
14 A. They shelled houses from the tanks, just destroying them.
15 Q. Did you see any houses burning?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. As you fled towards the woods, did you see anyone wounded?
18 A. Yes, there was one young man who was with me. He was wounded.
19 Q. Did you see anybody else?
20 A. No, not any of the people who were with me, only this young man
21 was wounded.
22 Q. Other than the people who were with you, did you see anybody else
23 that had been wounded?
24 A. No, I didn't. I only saw a dead woman as I set out for the woods.
25 Q. Did you know this lady?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Where was she?
3 A. She was lying across the threshold, and her head was falling down.
4 Q. When you say: "Her head was falling down," what do you mean by
6 A. Half her body was in the house and half was lying outside, and her
7 head was severed.
8 Q. As you ran towards the woods, did you see anybody else in a
9 similar situation?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Did you recognise this person?
12 A. Yes, I did. I saw a woman who had been killed. She was lying
13 like this.
14 Q. Can you just describe how she was lying.
15 A. She was lying face down on the floor.
16 Q. What did you see, in relation to her body?
17 A. I saw blood all around her.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may we go into private session to
19 look at two diagrams.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you also want to ask the name?
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: We will do that in private session.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
23 [Private session]
12 Page 3922 – redacted – private session.
18 [Closed session]
12 Page 3924 – redacted – closed session.
12 Pages 3925 – redacted – closed session.
12 Pages 3926 – redacted – closed session.
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed. Please proceed.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND:
4 Q. Madam, we have now moved back into open session. How long did it
5 take you to arrive in the woods?
6 A. About an hour.
7 Q. Who was there in the woods when you arrived?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, one to two hours.
9 A. Women and children.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND:
11 Q. Did the tanks follow you to the woods?
12 A. Yes, one of the tanks followed us.
13 Q. Were they able to enter the woods?
14 A. No, they were not. They tried to fell trees with chainsaws so
15 that they could get in.
16 Q. When you say "they," who are you referring to, non-Serbs?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did the tanks stay by the woods?
19 A. Yes, one of the tanks remained in the vicinity of the woods.
20 Q. What did it do, do you know?
21 A. It opened fire in the direction of the woods.
22 Q. How long did you stay in the woods?
23 A. We stayed the whole night and the following day, the whole of the
24 following day.
25 Q. Then where did you go?
1 A. We went to Ljubija.
2 Q. How long did you stay in Ljubija for?
3 A. We stayed quite a while.
4 Q. What was happening in Ljubija at this time, during the time that
5 you were there?
6 A. Serb soldiers came and took people away from Ljubija.
7 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the persons that were taken
9 A. I remember a police officer.
10 Q. Did you or your husband return to your house during the time that
11 you were in Ljubija?
12 A. Yes, he did. My husband came to the house, but he would actually
13 remain in the vicinity of the house.
14 Q. What did he tell you he saw?
15 A. That he had seen a tank (redacted)
16 Q. In relation to your house, did your husband tell you anything?
17 A. Yes. He told me that it was damaged.
18 Q. Do you remember an attack, a shelling, of Ljubija?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Do you recall when this was?
21 A. You mean the date?
22 Q. Yes, the month, if you can't recall the date.
23 A. It was in the month of May, but I cannot recall the date.
24 Q. I want to direct your attention to a time period in Ljubija in
25 July of 1992.
1 A. I can't remember exactly. Yes, it was in July.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Just one moment.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Does the Prosecution need a break?
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
5 Q. Do you recall any shelling occurring in Ljubija in July 1992?
6 A. No, I can't remember any of that. I forgot.
7 Q. Do you recall one day when your husband was taken away from
9 A. Not the exact date.
10 Q. Do you recall the day, though, even though you don't recall the
12 A. I can't remember the date, but I do remember the day, what
13 happened on that day.
14 Q. Can you please tell the Court what happened the day your husband
15 was taken away.
16 A. Yes, I can.
17 Q. Please.
18 A. In the morning, at 4.00, we were in the cellar. There were women
19 and children, men, too. Then the soldiers came. They banged on our door
20 and told us to get out. Look at this nest of Green Berets, they said.
21 They chased us out. They separated the men from the women and children
22 immediately and took them one by one to the stadium in Ljubija. Other
23 four soldiers came, to separate the women from the children. One of the
24 soldiers said: "Women to one side, and children to the other. We'll make
25 a small Jasenovac out of this place." We started crying, and women
1 started pressing their children against them. A commander came. He was
2 talking to someone using a radio set, and he said not to separate the
3 women from the children. They went into the cellar. They had bayonets,
4 and they started piercing the hay that was piled where we used to lie.
5 They took the men away. They took them away one by one. They took
6 everyone. Then they returned us to the cellar, bolted the door so we
7 couldn't watch. Personally, I could see from the cellar window as they
8 were taking away men with bloodstained heads and their hands tied behind
9 their backs. They were taking them down that road.
10 In the town of Ljubija, there was shooting. There were cries that
11 the town was being shelled. This lasted until after 4.00 in the
12 afternoon, practically the whole day. Just before nightfall, the shelling
13 calmed down a little bit.
14 Q. Did your husband return home at any point, or return to the house
15 where you were staying in Ljubija?
16 A. Yes, my husband returned that afternoon from the stadium. He came
18 Q. Did your husband tell you what happened at the stadium?
19 A. Yes, he did.
20 Q. What did he tell you?
21 A. He told me that they were killing people at the stadium, loading
22 them into the vans and taking them to the camps.
23 Q. Did he tell you whether anyone had been killed at the stadium?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What did he say?
1 A. He said that many men had been killed at the stadium.
2 Q. When the men had been taken away to the stadium, what happened to
3 the women and children?
4 A. We were taken back to the cellar.
5 Q. Did the soldiers mistreat you in any way?
6 A. Yes, they abused us verbally. They kept asking for money. They
7 took away our jewellery.
8 Q. How were these soldiers dressed?
9 A. In camouflage uniforms.
10 Q. Approximately how many soldiers were there?
11 A. There were many soldiers.
12 Q. Out of the group of men that were staying in the house with you,
13 how many of the men returned?
14 A. All but one returned. That one was taken to the camp.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, out of an abundance of caution,
16 could I request a redaction, please, at 15.45.43. The witness referred to
17 a location.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: No objection, Your Honour.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's okay.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Will the redaction please be prepared.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. Did the Serb soldiers return to Ljubija that day?
25 A. Yes, they did.
1 Q. What did they do when they returned?
2 A. Robbing.
3 Q. Did you leave Ljubija at some point?
4 A. Yes, I did. I left Ljubija, but only later on.
5 Q. Where did you go?
6 A. To Gomjenica, to Zeger.
7 Q. When you went to Gomjenica, were you visited by anybody?
8 A. Yes, I was.
9 Q. Who was that?
10 A. Stakic and Kojo.
11 Q. Where did Stakic work?
12 A. At the Celpak company.
13 Q. Can you describe him.
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. Please.
16 A. He was not very tall, rather short actually, neither fat nor thin.
17 He had a greying hair, parted on the side.
18 Q. You mentioned another person called Kojo. Did you know his name?
19 A. Yes, but I didn't know his name. I just knew him by his nickname.
20 Everybody called him Kojo.
21 Q. Do you know Stakic's first name?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. How long had you known these two men?
24 A. My husband knew them. I didn't know them very well.
25 Q. What happened when they arrived at the house?
1 A. When they arrived at the house, he told me husband that he should
2 not move around the fields too much, that he should stay inside.
3 Q. When you say "he," who are you referring to, Stakic or Kojo?
4 A. They both said that.
5 Q. What was Stakic's occupation, if you know?
6 A. He was a foreman.
7 Q. What did your husband do after they had had this conversation?
8 A. The next day, he fled to the woods with a friend of his.
9 Q. Did either of these men return to the house?
10 A. You mean my husband or...?
11 Q. I'm sorry, I mean Stakic or Kojo.
12 A. Yes, they both returned.
13 Q. And what did they say?
14 A. A neighbour of mine was at the house, the wife of the man who had
15 fled with my husband. And Stakic said that I was would be his wife, and
16 that this other woman would be Kojo's wife.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm about to move on to another
18 topic. Perhaps this might be an appropriate time to break, or I can for
19 ten minutes --
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 4.30.
21 --- Recess taken at 4.03 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.33 p.m.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before we proceed, in the absence of the
24 witness, the Bench believes that some remarks are necessary. When there
25 is examination, and we are well aware that we are in an adversarial
1 system, and it's for the party to make the contributions, but it has to be
2 done in a way that the Judges can understand what the contribution shall
3 be. And there are two possibilities, of course: Either the Judges
4 intervene themselves, what we don't want in principle. But as uti
5 moratio, we have to do this. On the other hand, it, from our point of
6 view, it is unfair, an unfair proceeding, to touch, for example, upon a
7 name, Stakic, and then leave it open what person this is, to touch upon,
8 say, as it was -- as you can read it on the transcript, that the two
9 person asked evidently the witness and another female person to be wife,
10 and without going on what happened. So we can't depart. Therefore, this
11 way of examination, only touching upon issues, can't be tolerated. And
12 therefore, I would ask the parties -- we would ask the parties to be more
13 concrete and go into the details and not leave the most important issues
14 open for guessing games for the Judges.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may I just make a few points. The
16 Prosecution takes on board everything that Your Honours have said, and we
17 agree with what you have said. We discussed this in the break, the fact
18 that we think this witness is very, very nervous, and I was going to speak
19 with her as soon as she came back to the witness box to just ask her to
20 relax a little, that you want to hear the story. And in relation to the
21 second matter about the two names of the witnesses, I saw the last
22 question that I asked, and it was left very open, and I was going to go
23 back to that and close that before I move to the next topic. Your Honour,
24 I also have some very good news for Your Honours, and that is we have our
25 first agreed fact in this case, and this is that the Stakic which the
1 witness has been referring to is not the accused Stakic.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As I said earlier, it would have been the
3 adequate time to come -- to let the witness come to this conclusion and
4 hear the evidence in toto, and of course, I'm aware that the witness is
5 especially nervous. But couldn't it be a solution, just let the witness
6 speak in a context, and not always to interrupt. It's extremely difficult
7 for me, as a judge coming from a civil-law system, and please, both
8 parties understand this, normally the protection of the witness and the
9 testimony in context would be the first and foremost work of the Judges.
10 But we have to accept here it's for the parties. But please, then, give
11 room for the parties and let them speak if they so want. And I have the
12 impression this witness wants to tell the Bench the story, and we want to
13 hear it and in a context. So I would like to proceed in this spirit. And
14 the witness may be brought in again.
15 Please be seated again.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Madam, you seem to be very, very nervous at the moment. I would
19 ask you to relax as much as you possibly can. The Judges want to hear
20 what you have to say in your own words. We obviously weren't there in
21 1992, and the Judges need to hear what you have to say in your own
22 context. So please feel free to expand on your answers as we go through
23 your testimony.
24 A. Yes, you're quite right, I'm a bit nervous.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You shouldn't be nervous. You should know that
1 the purpose of our work, and we are mandated to find the truth and to hear
2 what the persons in the country, in former Yugoslavia, have experienced.
3 And it's only you, the witnesses, who can tell us what has happened. And
4 I think it could, and can be, of course, also helpful for you if you can
5 tell us what you have experienced in a context. And therefore, please
6 feel free, if you want, to tell us something, if you want to give us a
7 message, do so. We are here in a private session -- in open session, but
8 we have protective measures, and thereby your personal data is protected,
9 and you can speak to us in a free way and tell us what you want to tell
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult sometimes to tell
12 about one's own experience, especially if it has left traces on one's
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We are all aware of this, and please believe us.
15 We are all experienced in this field, and we know about these
16 difficulties, and we know about the difficulties also a witness has in
17 this very special situation. And we understand that it's difficult for
18 you to be here today. But nevertheless, please try to tell us your
20 MS. SUTHERLAND:
21 Q. Madam, just before the break, we were discussing when a couple of
22 men came to your house and spoke with you and your husband, at which point
23 your husband left the house, and then these two men returned. You had
24 said a conversation that you had with these two men. Can you please just
25 tell us again what these men said to you and what you responded to them
1 before they left.
2 A. Yes, I can. Stakic told me that I would be his wife, and he told
3 my friend that she would be Kojo's wife. He said: "You will be our
5 Q. And did you respond?
6 A. Yes, I did. I said: "Shame on you. You want me to be your
8 Q. What happened then?
9 A. They left. My husband came back in the evening, at 2.00 actually.
10 He took a bath, and he wanted to take some food with him to the woods. At
11 4.00 in the morning, four soldiers appeared -- I'm sorry, no. That's not
12 how it happened. I apologise. Something else happened before. My
13 husband was at home. He arrived at about 2.00. At about 3.00 or 3.30, I
14 heard some noise outside. I peeked through the window, and I saw a group
15 of soldiers pushing a group of people in front of them towards the Zeger
16 bridge. And I told my husband: "You better leave the house. Something
17 is very wrong. They are taking men and women to the Zeger bridge." And
18 he said: "I do not want to leave you. I don't want to flee." I went
19 back to the window, and I realised that they were rounding up many people
20 from the surrounding houses and taking them down the nearby roads. Again,
21 I told him to flee. He didn't want. And at 4.00 a.m., four soldiers with
22 weapons and with masks over their faces came to the house. They banged on
23 the door, and then they broke in.
24 They immediately started beating him in front of me and the
25 children. Me and my children, we started to scream. They took him
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts. Pages 3938 to 3946.
1 outside. They told him to put on his shoes and get out. They continued
2 beating him in front of me. Those people were not local Serbs. They were
3 Serbs from Serbia, because our local Serbs do not use the word "Bre," and
4 also judging from the way they cursed my husband, you could conclude that
5 they were from Serbia. I told them to stop beating him. I said: "He
6 hasn't done anything wrong." But they continued hitting him. They tied
7 his hands behind his back with a piece of wire, and they told us to go
8 back into the house. I stayed at the window, and I watched him being
9 taken away by these people. They all -- they were hitting him all that
10 time. And at one point, he turned around and he said: "Take care of the
11 children. I'm no more." They took him in the direction of the bridge,
12 and I just watched him being taken away.
13 They put him on to a bus which was there, and that was the last
14 time I saw him. At that moment, I went back into the house. My children
15 were screaming and crying, and this friend of mine whose husband had come
16 back from the woods was also there. Her husband was also taken away.
17 They took everybody away. She came to my house, and I watched through the
18 window what was going on at the Zeger bridge. They brought many people to
19 the bridge. They turned on some music. They had a stereo which they had
20 taken from a nearby house, and they played it very loud, and they started
21 killing people and throwing their bodies into the Sana River. I saw this
22 with my own eyes. I saw them beat up a young man who was covered in
23 blood, and then told to go into the Sana River to wash himself. He bent
24 down to get some water to wash himself, but at that point, they opened
25 fire and shot him at his back, and he fell down into the water.
1 They took a very old man from a nearby house with his son. His
2 son has never come back to this date. And this old man was severely
3 beaten up at the bridge, but he returned. He was black and blue when he
4 returned. And they went on doing this for a while, rounding up many
5 people at the bridge, some of whom never returned. They also forced men
6 to jump down from the bridge, and then they would open fire at them. And
7 their bodies would float on the river. The Sana was red with blood. I
8 could hear them scream and shout. I heard them shouting things such as:
9 "Kill him, cut his throat" but not all of them were killed. Some men
10 were loaded on to the buses and then taken to the camps, to Omarska and
11 Keraterm. Buses were coming and going. They would come back empty. And
12 those who were still alive were then put on these empty buses and taken to
13 the camps. Those who were killed on the spot, their bodies were then
14 thrown into Sana.
15 And throughout that time, the music was playing loud, and the
16 people were screaming.
17 Q. Witness, I just want to go back and clarify a number of things
18 that you have just told us about.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You said earlier that you looked out of the window and you
21 recognise -- and you saw some people. Did you recognise anyone at that
22 point, the first time when you looked out of the window?
23 A. Yes, I recognised Mico, whose family name now escapes me. He used
24 to drive a local bus at Hambarine. I'm sorry, I cannot remember his
25 family name.
1 Q. How many soldiers were there approximately?
2 A. Jurusic, Mico Jurusic. I couldn't remember it for a moment.
3 There were quite a few soldiers there. The whole bridge was teeming with
4 soldiers. Some were engaged in killing, and some were engaged in putting
5 people on to the buses. But there were many of them in any case.
6 Q. What were the ethnicity of the victims that you have just told us
8 A. Those who were being killed?
9 Q. No, the victims -- yes, sorry. The victims, those that were being
11 A. Muslims and Croats.
12 Q. Could you recognise any of the people that were initially taken to
13 the bus along with your husband?
14 A. Yes, I could.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can we go into private session,
16 please, so that the witness can tell us those that she recognised.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Go into private session, and the witness may
18 know that when there is such a question, don't hesitate once again to
19 answer in the context. And nobody can hear now in the outside what will
20 be said and therefore, it may be easier for you to make your statement.
21 Thank you.
22 [Private session]
10 [Closed session]
12 Pages 3951 to 3978 – redacted – closed session.
12 Page 3979 – redacted – closed session.
1 at 2.15 p.m.