1 Monday, 10 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Good morning, everybody.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Some small but possibly important issues after

8 we have heard the case, if it could be called.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

10 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances, please.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian with

13 Ann Sutherland assisted by Ruth Karper for the Office of the

14 Prosecutor.

15 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic assisted

16 with Mr. Danilo Cirkovic for the Defence.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you very much. It was a little bit fast

18 last Friday, only to be on the safe side, possibly repeating, I understood

19 that the Defence has no chance during this week to have the necessary

20 in-depth consultation with the client, and therefore is not able to give,

21 if any, reactions to the remaining questions as to signatures and other

22 documents not signed. And I take it, as far as the Defence has pointed

23 out, that signatures are not contested on several documents, but to that

24 end, the parties regard this as agreed facts.

25 One other point is related to the application of Rule 92 bis. The

1 Appeals Chamber of this Tribunal has handed down, the 7th of June, a new

2 decision clarifying some, until now, open questions on the application of

3 this rule. It is only fair to give all the participants the chance to

4 revisit the decision whether to tender or to consent to bring statements

5 of witnesses under 92 bis into evidence. And therefore, I expect

6 statements of -- given by the parties no later than Monday, 8 July,

7 possibly we will have a clue why this date, Monday, 8 July, whether or not

8 they can or one party comes to another decision under this new Appeals

9 Chamber, decision of 7 of June. And I would ask the registry to

10 distribute this to the parties and have it as Exhibit J5 for our case.

11 Finally, from my point of view I have to tell you that due to

12 urgent circumstances I just learned a few minutes ago, we can hear

13 tomorrow only until 4.00 sharp. This concludes my introductory remarks

14 for this morning. Any observations by the parties?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I had promised Your Honour an

16 indication of the position of my office as to the July schedule. I just

17 wanted to indicate that the Prosecutor has been out of town, and she'll be

18 back tomorrow so I won't have the decision until tomorrow or Wednesday

19 probably.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Better tomorrow than Wednesday. Anything else?

21 Then the witness may be brought in. It's our understanding it's a

22 protected witness with face distortion and pseudonym. So the witness will

23 be called Witness R.

24 Are there any proofing notes for today necessary?

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. They should have been given to

1 you at 8:30 this morning.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning. Can you hear me in a language you

5 understand?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then would you please give the

8 solemn declaration.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS R

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And let me please, first of all, before we

15 start, apologise that here in the courtroom, you are not addressed with

16 your family name but for your protection -- or in the interest of your

17 protection, with the name Witness R. It's just for your protection. Do

18 you understand this?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So then the OTP may start with the

21 examination-in-chief, please.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown this piece of

23 paper, passing it to the Defence before you show it to the witness,

24 please.

25 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher, could the Defence please be shown that

2 piece of paper before the witness.

3 Q. Witness, can you please look at that piece of paper and confirm

4 whether that is your name without saying your name.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: If that piece of paper can be given to the

8 registry.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It should have Exhibit Number S128. I can't see

10 any objections from the side of the Defence. Therefore, admitted into

11 evidence as S128.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Under seal, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may we go into private session so

15 that I can ask some background questions of the witness.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Private session, please.

17 [Private session]

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14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed. Please proceed.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND:

17 Q. Sir, we've now moved into open session, so please take care not to

18 give any information which may reveal your identity. If you need to do

19 that, can you please ask to go into private session. Do you understand?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. In August 1991, did you join the reserve police force in Kozarac?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Who is the commander of the Kozarac police station?

24 A. The commander of the police station in Kozarac was Didovic Osman.

25 Q. What was his ethnicity?

1 A. He was a Muslim.

2 Q. Did you see any heavy weapons situated in the Prijedor

3 municipality; and if so, where?

4 A. Yes, there were heavy weapons to be seen in Prijedor municipality,

5 situated within the Prijedor barracks in Pasinac, not far from Prijedor,

6 in the villages around Prijedor.

7 Q. What time period are we talking about, when you saw these heavy

8 weapons?

9 A. That was when the war in Croatia began, that is, in Slovenia

10 first, and then in Croatia. A lot of the weapons came from Croatia and

11 Slovenia, weapons that then remained in Prijedor municipality.

12 Q. Besides the Prijedor barracks, what was the predominant ethnicity

13 of the persons living in those areas that you just mentioned where the

14 heavy weapons were situated?

15 A. The population was predominantly Serbian.

16 Q. What was the inter-ethnic relationships like between the Muslims

17 and the Serbs, at that time?

18 A. Well, at that time when the war began and in view of the situation

19 of Croatia, the situation became more complex. Following the first

20 multiparty elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina, every day, the situation

21 became more and more complex. So at the time we're talking about, the

22 relationship was not that good between Muslims and Serbs.

23 Q. When soldiers returned to the Prijedor municipality from the war

24 in Croatia, do you know where they were located?

25 A. They were located in Benkovac, that's close to Mrakovica.

1 Q. Before the war, what was situated at Benkovac?

2 A. There was sports complexes. We had a youth organisation there, a

3 youth labour organisation in the building within that complex.

4 Q. How far is Benkovac from Kozarac?

5 A. Approximately 8 kilometres perhaps.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution

7 Exhibit S14, which is the map of the area.

8 Q. Sir, if you could take a moment to orient yourself with that map,

9 and then if the map could be placed on the ELMO machine.

10 Could you perhaps fold the map sufficiently so that you can see

11 Kozarac and Benkovac on the map when it's placed on the ELMO machine.

12 Could you please point to where Kozarac is on the map, on the ELMO

13 machine to your right.

14 A. Kozarac. This here, mainly this area here, this area.

15 Q. Can you point to Kozarac town?

16 A. [Indicates].

17 Q. Thank you. Now, can you follow the road up to Benkovac.

18 A. This road here.

19 Q. And you mentioned before, what was that place called where

20 Benkovac was -- is situated?

21 A. Yes, I did. That was near Mrakovica.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown photographs

24 from S15. They are 003927 -- I'm sorry. The ERN number is 00392375,

25 00392397, 00392404, and 02147090, please.

1 Could that be placed on the ELMO, 00392375.

2 Q. What is shown in that photograph?

3 A. In this photograph, you can see the town of Benkovac, which is

4 where the army was located, the Serbian army.

5 Q. What is depicted to the right of the photograph?

6 A. On the right-hand side, you can see a stage where persons from the

7 youth work force organisation organised festivals, that sort of thing, the

8 stage on the right-hand side.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the next photograph be put on the ELMO,

10 00392397.

11 Q. What is shown in that photograph?

12 A. Here you can see Benkovac. Facilities used for accommodation of

13 those who would take part in the youth work.

14 Q. And the next photograph, 00392404.

15 THE REGISTRAR: This is 2402. We don't have...

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, I apologise. 02, 2402.

17 Q. What is shown in that photograph?

18 A. Here you can also see a part of this complex in Benkovac, these

19 facilities that were there.

20 Q. And finally, photograph 02147090. What is shown in that

21 photograph?

22 A. In this photo, we can see Benkovac, but it's a bird's eye view,

23 probably taken from a plane.

24 Q. Is the stage that you pointed out on photograph 00392375, does

25 that appear on that photograph? And if so, could you please point to it.

1 A. Yes, you can see it here, I think, on the right-hand side. I

2 think that's it. This is the stage, I think.

3 Q. Is that on the grassed area to the right of the photograph?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is it a square with -- brown square with white on the

6 right-hand side of it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: If those photographs could be returned to the

10 registry. Your Honour, do you want to mark them as exhibits now, give

11 them numbers?

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Don't they have already numbers?

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, these don't.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So if the registry could offer the new number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Okay. The picture with ERN number ending 2375 is

16 numbered S15/26. The picture with ERN number finishing 2397 is numbered

17 S15/27. The picture with ERN number 2402 is numbered S15/28. And the ERN

18 number 7090 is S15/29.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?

20 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then admitted into evidence under these

22 numbers. Thank you.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND:

24 Q. Sir, did you become aware of the behaviour of the soldiers at

25 Benkovac towards the locals?

1 A. Yes. A bit further away from Benkovac, there was a place called

2 Besce Poljana, the Besce field. There were a couple of Muslim families

3 living there. In order to go to Kozarac, these families had to pass by

4 Benkovac. So in March 1992, Eno Basic came to the police station in

5 Kozarac accompanied by his wife, Fazila. They asked to see the police

6 commander, Osman Didovic. As I was there outside the building, I showed

7 them into the commander's office. And once inside the building, Eno Basic

8 asked the commander Osman Didovic: "What sort of Chetniks are those

9 people in Benkovac?" Osman immediately phoned the Prijedor barracks and

10 talked to Radmilo Zeljaja. He asked him over the phone: "Zeljaja, what

11 kind of army is it, the people there in Benkovac?" Whereupon he replied:

12 "Well, Osman, I think you should come over. I'm not talking to you about

13 this on the phone."

14 Later on, the commander, Osman Didovic, told me: "Let's go to the

15 barracks in Prijedor."

16 Q. Could you pause there, Witness.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may we go into private session.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session, please.

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3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed. Please continue.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND:

6 Q. Witness, we are now back in open session. Did you report for work

7 on the 30th of April, 1992?

8 A. Yes. On the 30th of April, I reported for work. I went to the

9 police station.

10 Q. What occurred that day when you arrived at work?

11 A. When I entered the Kozarac police station, I found Muhamed Fazlic

12 and Ekrem Besic there. They were both active-duty policemen. And the

13 night before, they had been at the Prijedor police station. Their weapons

14 were confiscated, and they were sent home, simply.

15 Q. After the takeover, were checkpoints set up, and if so, where?

16 A. There were checkpoints in Kozarac, for example, near the bridge in

17 Kalata, near the church in Kozarac, at the crossroads on the

18 Prijedor/Banja Luka Road, at the entrance to Kozarac, all the places

19 leading into Kozarac.

20 Q. Who were manning these checkpoints?

21 A. There were reserve policemen, active-duty policemen from Kozarac.

22 There was the Territorial Defence.

23 Q. What was the ethnicity of these persons manning the checkpoints?

24 A. It was still mixed. There were still both Muslims and Serbs

25 there.

1 Q. Why were these checkpoints set up?

2 A. Simply for security, out of fear that someone might come along and

3 do something bad. Efforts were made to keep things under control.

4 Q. Did you notice any Serb checkpoints set up; and if so, where?

5 A. From the time when the takeover took place, this was in Orlovci,

6 in Kozarac near the petrol station on the main road.

7 Q. Did you recognise any of these persons at the checkpoints?

8 A. I did. Goran Borovnica was often there. I saw Milos Preradovic

9 on several occasions. Mile Jovic. These were people who had worked in

10 Kozarac before that as active-duty policemen.

11 Q. Was Goran Borovnica an active-duty policeman in Kozarac?

12 A. No, when the war broke out in Croatia, he went to the war front as

13 a reservist, but he was a waiter by occupation.

14 Q. Do you know a person called Branko Torbica?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What's his occupation?

17 A. He was an active policeman.

18 Q. Did you see him at a checkpoint?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Following the takeover, did you hear anyone from the SDA on the

21 radio; and if so, who?

22 A. I did. On Radio Prijedor, I heard Dedo Crnalic who had a catering

23 establishment in Prijedor. Then Dr. Sadikovic, Muhamed Cehajic, the

24 president of the municipality. And others.

25 Q. What were they saying? What was the gist of their conversations?

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1 A. Well, mostly they were asking people to restrain themselves. They

2 were promising that solutions would be found at a higher level. It was

3 things like that.

4 Q. Did you hear anyone from the SDS on the radio?

5 A. Yes. They also spoke over the radio. There was Simo Drljaca, who

6 then spoke of conditions under which things would function, that the

7 Muslims were to hand over their weapons, and the non-Serbs as well. He

8 was promising security for everyone. I heard him say those things. I

9 also heard Mico Kovacevic, who was a doctor. Milomir Stakic, who at that

10 time became the president of the municipality in Prijedor. Mostly they

11 all used the same vocabulary. They spoke of the handover of weapons and

12 of the conditions under which they would allegedly guarantee security in

13 the area.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may we move into private session,

15 please.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session, please.

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19 [Open session].

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please continue.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have been informed that the

22 transcript has frozen. We may need to take a short break.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would five minutes be enough?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the trial stays adjourned until 10.50.

1 --- Break taken at 10.07 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. May we now continue with the

4 examination-in-chief until 12.30.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. Just before the break,

6 due to technical difficulties, I was requesting that we go into open

7 session.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So you would like us to go back in private

9 session?

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, open session, please.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Open session. Then we go. It is confirmed. So

12 please proceed.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND:

14 Q. Sir, we are back into open session now. Just prior to the break,

15 I asked you some questions in relation to hearing people on the radio, and

16 you mentioned that you heard Milomir Stakic and Milan Kovacevic.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How were these people introduced on the radio?

19 A. After the takeover, they were introduced as the Crisis Staff of

20 Prijedor municipality. And that's how they addressed the population,

21 through the media, or Radio Prijedor at any rate.

22 Q. After the takeover, did you attend a meeting at the Kozarac fire

23 brigade building?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Do you recall approximately when this occurred?

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1 A. This meeting was held in May, may have been the 13th or the 14th

2 of May.

3 Q. Who attended this meeting?

4 A. Stojan Zupljanin who had arrived from Banja Luka and who was

5 introduced as the head of the security services centre. Dule Jankovic, a

6 commander from Prijedor. Cado, I'm not sure whether his name was Milomir.

7 And the police in Kozarac.

8 Q. What was the purpose of the meeting?

9 A. The purpose of the meeting was to sign a pledge of loyalty to the

10 new Serb government in Prijedor municipality.

11 Q. Can you tell the Court what was discussed during that meeting?

12 A. At this meeting, it was said that the Kozarac police should sign a

13 pledge of loyalty, that the weapons should be turned in at places that

14 were determined. It was that sort of thing mostly.

15 Q. Did the Kozarac police sign loyalty oaths?

16 A. During the meeting, a major number of Kozarac citizens assembled,

17 and the Kozarac police did not agree to sign the pledge of loyalty on that

18 day, although the commander, Osman Didovic, in the name of what he called

19 "peace" in Kozarac, he even tried to get people to take that step and to

20 sign the pledge of loyalty. However, even the citizens assembling and a

21 large number of policemen who just refused to go along with it, and the

22 events that preceded this in other police stations, such as the one in

23 Ljubija, so those who had signed the pledge of loyalty, everyone was

24 fired. So at last, people refused to sign the pledge.

25 Q. Did you know Stojan Zupljanin prior to this meeting?

1 A. No, no, I'd never met him before.

2 Q. I want to turn now to another topic. What happened on the 24th of

3 May, 1992?

4 A. On the 24th of May, at around 1300 hours, a radio connection was

5 used by Zeljaja to call Osman Didovic, the commander of the police, and he

6 told him to make sure that a military convoy was allowed to pass without

7 any hindrance in the direction of Banja Luka. He made some conditions.

8 He said what was supposed to happen. There were to be no armed people by

9 the roadside. There were to be no obstacles. And Osman, the commander,

10 accepted that. They concluded their conversation, after which I don't

11 know how much time elapsed, but not very much, Zeljaja called again and

12 told commander Osman Didovic that the convoy had been attacked in

13 Jakupovici, and that he should go right away to see what was happening.

14 At that point, Osman went toward his car. He was going to see what was

15 going on when the shelling of Kozarac began, from several directions. It

16 was so heavy that the commander had no possibility of checking what was

17 actually happening.

18 This went on until the next day, this shelling.

19 Q. Was the shelling continuous or intermittent?

20 A. The shelling was continuous, continuous. It's hard to explain.

21 Every second a shell landed. It was really intense, intense shelling.

22 Q. You said that Zeljaja made radio contact with the commander of the

23 Kozarac police station, Didovic. Where was Didovic stationed at this

24 time?

25 A. We were in Rizo [phoen] Kahrimanovic's house, this was in Dera, in

1 Mrakovica on the left-hand side. After the meeting, this is where the

2 Kozarac police station was located.

3 Q. On the 24th of May, 1992, did you see anybody killed or wounded?

4 A. On the 24th of May, well, around an hour or two after the shelling

5 started, there was an improvised hospital in the house where we were.

6 Wounded people began to arrive. There were a lot of them.

7 Q. Approximately how many people?

8 A. I can't say exactly how many because there was chaos, and one

9 didn't think of counting the people. But there were a lot, really, a lot

10 of people.

11 Q. Who were the people that were seeing to these wounded?

12 A. There was Dr. Jusuf Pasic, who before that had worked in the

13 Kozarac hospital, and Azra -- I don't know what her last name was. But

14 before that, she was a veterinary surgeon.

15 Q. You said that the shelling lasted until the next day. Can you

16 tell the Court what happened the next day, that is, the 25th of May, 1992?

17 A. On the 25th of May, 1992, after the intensive shelling, after a

18 lot of people had been wounded, Dr. Jusuf Pasic and Dr. Azra arrived in

19 the room where we were and begged Osman Didovic to try and to negotiate

20 with Zeljaja so that at least the wounded could be taken to hospital in

21 Prijedor. That was what happened.

22 Q. Did Osman Didovic negotiate with Zeljaja?

23 A. Yes. Osman Didovic established a radio connection with Radmilo

24 Zeljaja. We were all there. We heard the conversation. Radmilo Zeljaja

25 started at once spelling out the conditions under which he wanted Kozarac

1 to surrender. Before that, commander Osman Didovic told him: "I'm here

2 with a lot of wounded people, and there are some Serbs among them." His

3 reply was: "There are no Serbs left in Kozarac." Then he said again:

4 "But Vaso is here." He used to be a forester, a man who looked after the

5 forest, and he was among the wounded. But Zeljaja insisted. He was

6 ruthless. He insisted that the police from Kozarac should stand at the

7 head of a column, with white flags raised high, that the wounded should go

8 in front and the people should go behind the police. He insisted on this,

9 and he kept saying: "You have to raise white flags. You have to raise

10 them up high."

11 Q. Did the people of Kozarac surrender on the 25th of May?

12 A. Yes. On the 25th of May, along with everything I said, what Dr.

13 Pasic and Azra had asked, it was decided that Kozarac should surrender,

14 and all the conditions that Zeljaja had set up were met.

15 Q. Did Becir Medunjanin also attempt to negotiate with Zeljaja on the

16 25th of May?

17 A. Yes. In front of the building where we were, Becir Medunjanin

18 arrived from somewhere. And he tried to talk to Zeljaja. I remember he

19 told him that a delegation from Kozarac had already gone to Prijedor and

20 had not come back. But mostly, the conversation boiled down to Zeljaja

21 repeating what he had already said to commander Osman. After that

22 conversation, Becir Medunjanin left that place and went off somewhere.

23 Q. Do you know who was part of this delegation that had gone to

24 Prijedor to try and negotiate with the Serbs?

25 A. I know that Islam Bahonjic was in the delegation. I can't recall.

1 I don't know the names of the others exactly.

2 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened on the 26th of May, 1992.

3 A. On the 26th of May, 1992, the conditions were that a column should

4 set out from Kozarac, the wounded in front, and the police and the people,

5 along the Prijedor/Banja Luka Road in the direction of Prijedor to the bus

6 stop called Limenka. And this was done. We set out on the 26th. When we

7 arrived at the checkpoint at the bus stop called Limenka, we were met by

8 soldiers in a lot of different uniforms. They were Serb soldiers. There

9 were different kinds of weapons there. As we were moving along, we could

10 see houses burning. They were burning around us. And when we got there,

11 they started separating the men from the women and children.

12 Q. How many people were gathered at the Limenka bus station, bus

13 stop?

14 A. It's hard to estimate, but in my estimation, about a thousand

15 people, maybe more, who had gathered together on that day to surrender,

16 and who followed the column.

17 Q. You mentioned that there were soldiers in a lot of different

18 uniforms. Can you describe the uniforms they were wearing?

19 A. There were people in the usual olive-grey military uniforms. Then

20 people in blue camouflage uniforms, also in olive-grey camouflage

21 uniforms. There were black uniforms with Chetnik insignia on the caps.

22 So they were of different kinds and colours.

23 Q. Did you recognise anyone from -- did you recognise any policemen

24 that day?

25 A. Yes, at the checkpoint there were Milos Preradovic, Milo Jovic,

1 Brane Bolta, Brane Torbica. At one point, he approached commander Osman.

2 We were standing there and he said: "That bus down there, that's for the

3 police." It was parked opposite Osman Kahrimanovic's house, about a

4 hundred metres away from the checkpoint where we surrendered.

5 Q. What was the ethnicity of these people, of the thousand or so

6 people that you saw at Limenka bus stop?

7 A. They were Muslims. Muslims, with maybe an odd Croat among them.

8 Q. What was the ethnicity of the soldiers and police, if you know?

9 A. The policemen were Serbs, and the soldiers.

10 Q. You mentioned that you saw houses burning in the vicinity. What

11 village or villages were these?

12 A. From that place, you can see the village of Brdjani, part of

13 Kozarusa. It was the surrounding villages that were burning, you could

14 see those houses.

15 Q. What was the ethnicity of the persons who lived in those villages?

16 A. Muslims.

17 Q. What was the situation like at that time before -- before you were

18 taken on to the bus?

19 A. The situation was -- well, I could recognise it at once. They

20 started maltreating people, taking them out of the column. There was

21 shooting. At one point, from the place where I was standing, I saw

22 Senadin Sara taken out. He used to be in Prijedor, but he happened to be

23 in Kozarac on that day. Vlasim Besic, a plumber.

24 Q. What happened to these people?

25 A. I saw Mile Jovic and two other men in uniform taking them in the

1 direction of the house that was at the roadside. It belonged to Zajko who

2 was a Roma by ethnicity, a gypsy, a man who was working in Germany at the

3 time.

4 Q. You mentioned Mile Jovic. How was he dressed?

5 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform with a white belt. It was an

6 olive-grey camouflage military uniform of the kind worn by the military

7 police.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown S14, the map of the

9 area, please.

10 Q. Sir, I'd like you to point out on the map where the village of

11 Dera is located, and also Kozarusa, in relation to the town of Kozarac.

12 A. I didn't hear you very well. Kozarusa and?

13 Q. Dera. Where the police station was, on the 24th of May.

14 A. Dera, Dera. Yes.

15 The village of Kozarusa was here. And Dera was here in the

16 direction of Mrakovica, right here. Before the village of Rajkovici,

17 right here, in this part.

18 Q. You're pointing on the map the road leading north out of Kozarac

19 towards Mrakovica, and you say that the village of Dera is near Rajkovici

20 on the left-hand side, is that correct, on the left-hand side of the road?

21 A. Correct, correct.

22 Q. How far is Dera from Kozarac?

23 A. About 2 kilometres.

24 Q. You pointed a moment ago to Kozarusa. In what direction from

25 Kozarac is Kozarusa?

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1 A. In the direction of Prijedor.

2 Q. Approximately how many kilometres from Kozarac is Kozarusa?

3 A. Kozarusa is a kilometre and a half from Kozarac in the direction

4 of Prijedor, that's where it is. About a kilometre and a half or 2

5 kilometres.

6 Q. Can you point to Brdjani, where you mentioned that saw houses

7 burning?

8 A. Brdjani, it's this area here. When you go from Kozarac in the

9 direction of Debeli Brijeg, where before the war there was a hut in the

10 mountains for hikers. That's where Brdjani is.

11 Q. You're pointing to the right of Kozarac. Is that correct?

12 A. Correct, correct.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. If the map can be returned to the

14 registry.

15 Q. Sir, you mentioned a moment ago that there were some buses at the

16 Limenka bus stop, and you were told that one of these buses was for the

17 police. Is that correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Approximately how many buses did you see at Limenka bus stop that

20 day?

21 A. On that day, there were a lot of buses coming from Prijedor, from

22 the direction of Prijedor, about 20. And the people were getting on,

23 women and children on one set of buses, and the men on another.

24 Q. What sort of buses were they?

25 A. They were buses belonging to the Prijedor transport company.

1 Q. Do you recall the name of these buses? Do you recall the name of

2 the transport company?

3 A. Autotransportno Brdezacji Prijedor. That was its name. It was in

4 charge of public transport before the war. We used to refer to it as

5 "Autotransport," "Autotransport Prijedor."

6 Q. Were you ordered on to one of these buses?

7 A. Yes. Torbica pointed out a bus that was designated only for the

8 police from Kozarac, and that's the bus we boarded.

9 Q. Did you recognise anyone as you were going to the bus?

10 A. As I was getting on the bus, right next to the bus, a dead man was

11 lying on the ground face down, wearing a military olive-grey uniform. We

12 passed by him as we were getting on the bus. And when we boarded the bus,

13 Goran Borovnica got on. He had a Zolja, a hand-held rocket launcher. He

14 was carrying an automatic rifle in his hand. He boarded the bus, and the

15 first thing he said was: "Didn't I tell you that Kozarac would be

16 Serbian?" We kept quiet. He started on us one by one. I was sitting

17 there with Hajrudin and Muhamed Fazlic. He said: "Oh, you didn't beat

18 me. You didn't beat me." And then he hit Nihad, and he said to

19 him -- with his rifle butt, and he said: "You did beat me." And then he

20 went toward the back of the bus. At one point, he called out: "Osman

21 Didovic is here, the commander is here." And he went back and got off the

22 bus right away.

23 Q. Where were you taken?

24 A. They took us to the Prijedor SUP, behind the SUP building in

25 Prijedor where there were garages, mostly behind the SUP building.

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1 Q. What happened when you arrived at the SUP?

2 A. When we arrived there, I saw Djuro Karanovic, Bosko Grabez, Branko

3 Bolta, Strika, they were all active policemen. They were all insulting

4 us, cursing us, calling us "balija." Insulting us, abusing us verbally.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown a photograph from S15

6 with the ERN number 00392212, please.

7 Q. What is shown in that photograph?

8 A. You can see the Prijedor SUP here, where we were brought. The

9 back of the building, but this is the entrance to the SUP building in

10 Prijedor.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: If that photograph can be returned to the

12 registry. Your Honour, do you want to give it an exhibit number?

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any objections?

14 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then this photo is admitted as -- the former 4A

16 is admitted into evidence as S15/31.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: I think it's 32, Your Honour.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We had in the meantime another one? Yes, right.

20 32.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND:

22 Q. While you were detained at the SUP, what did they do?

23 A. They took us -- they took two men, two by two, out of the group,

24 and they didn't come back. First, we thought they were killing them or

25 that something was happening to them, because they were taken away and

1 they didn't come back. When it was my turn and the turn of Emir

2 Sinanagic, who used to work in the Prijedor SUP as a forensic technician

3 before, they took us into the lobby of the SUP building. A man I didn't

4 know was sitting there, registering our names, saying that we had handed

5 in our weapons, taking away our identification papers, and then we went

6 out of the building through the front door, and there was a car waiting

7 for us there. It was a Lada Niva car, a terrain vehicle. And then they

8 took us in the direction of Urije. At the traffic lights, he turned

9 right, came out on to the Prijedor/Banja Luka asphalt road, set out in the

10 direction of Banja Luka, and then turned off just as we were approaching

11 Keraterm and stopped there.

12 Q. What happened when you arrived at Keraterm?

13 A. When we arrived there, I went into the first garage. When I

14 entered, there were about 50 people there already. I recognised the

15 president of municipality, Muhamed Cehajic. He was sitting in a corner.

16 Islamo Bahonjic was there, too. Muhamed Ergelic, also known as Cuko, who

17 owned a pizzeria in Prijedor. The imam from Kozarusa, from Donja

18 Kozarusa, was there, too. I think his last name was Granov. Many people.

19 Q. Were there any guards at the Keraterm facility?

20 A. Yes. The guards were just outside.

21 Q. How were they dressed?

22 A. They were mostly wearing camouflage uniforms or military

23 olive-grey uniforms.

24 Q. You mentioned that you saw Muhamed Cehajic. What was his

25 condition?

1 A. It was obvious that he had been beaten. I noticed, after I came

2 in, that his nails and fingers were blue from the beating. You could see

3 that he had been beaten before.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown a photograph

5 from S15, 02006269, please.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it the Prosecution's intention also to

7 present at the same time 65 and 16, the two following in the binder, just

8 to have it in order?

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, 6265 is already exhibit 15/1. I can

10 show the witness --

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just for clarification, and also please, once

12 again, 2416.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can we have it together. Thank you.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness also be shown 02006265 and

16 02002416. 6269 is 8A on the index, 6265 is 8B, and 2416 is 8C.

17 Q. Sir, if you could look at the photograph 02006269, what is shown

18 in that photograph?

19 A. You can see the Keraterm camp and the Keraterm building where we

20 were brought from the SUP building.

21 Q. Could you please point on the ELMO machine to your right where you

22 were first taken.

23 A. To this garage here. Right here.

24 Q. You're pointing to the room at the very end, on the left-hand side

25 of the photograph?

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness could be shown the next photograph

3 02006265, which is Exhibit S1.

4 Q. What is shown in that photograph?

5 A. You can see Keraterm.

6 Q. And the last photograph, 01002416.

7 A. Yes, this is Keraterm also.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the purposes of the admission into evidence,

10 first of all any objections by the Defence?

11 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the former 8/1, the number ending with 69,

13 will go under S15/33. Admitted into evidence. I understood that 8B is

14 already admitted into evidence. And 8C, just for clarification?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. C is admitted as S15-34.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was tendered as 34. And thereby admitted as

17 S15/34. Thank you.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND:

19 Q. Sir, how long did you stay in the Keraterm facility?

20 A. I spent there the night between the 26th and the 27th. On the

21 27th, in the morning, empty buses arrived and parked outside but within

22 the camp. In the evening hours, we were ordered to get on these buses.

23 They didn't tell us where they would take us. So in the afternoon hours,

24 around 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon, I couldn't tell, they began to load

25 people on to these buses.

1 Q. Where were you taken?

2 A. We were taken to the Omarska camp.

3 Q. Were you escorted on these buses?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What, if anything, were you told by the escorts?

6 A. We were told to keep our heads down, as on our way there.

7 Obviously they were insulting us as usual. But we were told to keep our

8 heads down at all times.

9 Q. Do you know who was your escort?

10 A. No, I don't. I didn't recognise any of the guards who were with

11 us.

12 Q. Do you know whether they were from the police or the military?

13 A. I think they were from the police.

14 Q. How far is Omarska from Keraterm? How many kilometres?

15 A. If you take the asphalt road, the Prijedor/Banja Luka Road,

16 perhaps about 28 kilometres, up to 30. I can't say with any precision,

17 but that's about it.

18 Q. You said you left Keraterm at around 4.00 or 5.00 p.m. in the

19 afternoon. What time did you arrive in Omarska?

20 A. In the morning. I have to tell you again, time was not an issue

21 for us. There was no need to look at our watches. We didn't even know

22 what day it was. We lost all sense of time. But when we got to Omarska,

23 it was morning.

24 Q. So from late afternoon until the morning?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Where were the buses going?

2 A. I didn't know the route because I never took that route to go to

3 Omarska, although I did go to Omarska quite often. But I didn't recognise

4 the route.

5 Q. How many buses were there that left Keraterm for Omarska?

6 A. It's difficult to say really, because I got on to one of the

7 buses, but there were many buses there, quite many. I only got on to one

8 of these buses, and we were told to keep our heads down. So I didn't

9 really have an opportunity to count the buses; I couldn't tell. But there

10 were many of them.

11 Q. Approximately how many people were on your bus?

12 A. There must have been between 50 and 60 people on the bus.

13 Q. What happened when you arrived in Omarska?

14 A. When we arrived in Omarska, you could hear sounds of shooting.

15 You could hear the sounds of glass breaking. The electricity was cut off,

16 and then on and off. The bus on which I was came there, parked outside a

17 building. I didn't know what the building was used for. The electricity

18 was turned back on at that moment. We were ordered to get off the bus. I

19 was in the third seat on the right-hand side of the bus. Hajrudin

20 Jakupovic was the man who sat next to me. Zilhad Hodzic was in front of

21 me. Muhamed Ergelic, also known as Cuko. We started to get off the bus.

22 There was a large group of uniformed persons waiting for us outside the

23 bus. They were also wearing camouflage uniforms. At that moment, I saw

24 Miroslav Kvocka standing there. I recognised him. Mladjo Radic, called

25 Krkan, and many other uniformed persons. When we got off the bus, I saw

1 that Muhamed Ergelic, Cuko, had been taken away. They -- these soldiers

2 wearing camouflage uniforms took him by the arm and took him away. When

3 Zilhad Hodzic came along, he was sitting in front of me, I heard that

4 Mladjo Radic, also known as Krkan, told him: "Oh, commander, so you're

5 here, too." And then they took him away, too. Hajrudin Jakupovic

6 remained in front of me, but then they took him away, too, in the

7 direction of the red house.

8 When it was my turn, one of the soldiers asked: "Who killed

9 Macola?" I just shrugged my shoulders. I thought they were going to take

10 me away, too. I just put my hands up in the air. They grabbed hold of

11 me, they took my jacket off, and ordered me to get inside the room. I

12 entered by the door, climbed up a flight of stairs, and on the right-hand

13 side, there was a red door, an iron door. I entered the room.

14 Q. I want to go back over and ask you some questions in relation to

15 the last answer you gave. You mentioned a man called Zilhad Hodzic, and

16 you said that they said: "Oh, the commander's here." What was he a

17 commander of, and what was his ethnicity?

18 A. He was not a commander really. He used to be a commander at the

19 police station in Omarska before the war, after which he worked in

20 Prijedor. I'm not sure exactly what his work was, but he was one of the

21 commanding staff in the Prijedor SUP.

22 Q. And what is his ethnicity?

23 A. He was a Muslim.

24 Q. You also mentioned when you first got off the bus you saw Miroslav

25 Kvocka and Mladen Radic. Dealing with these people separately, first of

1 all Kvocka, how long had you known him for?

2 A. I'd known him for a long time. He'd come over to see me

3 occasionally. He worked as a policeman at the Omarska police station.

4 Q. Approximately how many years had you known him?

5 A. Difficult to say. For a couple of years maybe, that's prior to

6 the war.

7 Q. Mladen Radic, how long had you known him for?

8 A. I'd also known him for quite a long time. He was also a policeman

9 in Omarska. He'd come over to see me in the same period as Kvocka.

10 Q. You mentioned that the buses arrived in the morning. Do you know

11 approximately what time in the morning?

12 A. I can't say really. It was in the morning. It dawned soon, and

13 the new day came. That's how I could tell. But I didn't really look at

14 my watch.

15 Q. And again, the buses, where were they from? Do you know?

16 A. The buses were coming from the Keraterm camp.

17 Q. I'm sorry. It's my question.

18 Do you know what type of buses these were that took you from

19 Keraterm to Omarska camp?

20 A. Those were also Autotransport Prijedor buses.

21 Q. You said that soldiers ordered you to go into a room. Do you

22 recall the number of that room?

23 A. At that time, I didn't know the number, but later I found out that

24 it was Room Number 15.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown a photograph

1 from S15 with an ERN number 00409592, please.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the record, this is S15/18. Correct?

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

4 Q. Sir, what's shown in that photograph?

5 A. In this photograph, you can see the Omarska camp, the place we

6 were taken to.

7 Q. Pointing to the ELMO machine on your right, can you point to where

8 the buses stopped when you arrived in Omarska?

9 A. Here, outside this gate.

10 Q. You're pointing to the long red building.

11 A. Yes, precisely.

12 Q. And where was Room 15?

13 A. Room 15, after you entered this door, then up a flight of stairs,

14 and then on the right-hand side. There's a flight of stairs there, and

15 then on the right.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. If that photograph could be returned

17 to the registry.

18 Q. How long were you detained in Omarska?

19 A. On the 6th of August, 1992.

20 Q. Were you detained in Room 15 the entire time you were at Omarska?

21 A. It was only in July when I was taken to be interrogated I spent

22 one day at the pista, the area outside. Because when I was brought back

23 from the interrogation, we were ordered to lie face down on the ground in

24 that area. It was very hot outside. Emir Sinanagic was lying next to me.

25 And prostrate like that, face down, he told me: "I'll ask Neso to take us

1 back to Room 15." I approved of this because I realised that in this area

2 outside, conditions were even worse. People were lying there face down.

3 And then this really happened. He did eventually ask Neso to allow us to

4 go back to Room 15, and on the evening on the same day, Neso indeed took

5 us back to Room 15 where I spent the remaining time in Omarska.

6 Q. Do you know the full name of the person you've referred to as

7 Neso?

8 A. His name was Nenad Janjic, nicknamed Neso.

9 Q. What was his position in the camp?

10 A. He was a guard there.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the photograph S18

12 again, please. I should have had you do this when you looked at the

13 photograph a minute ago.

14 Q. Can you please point out for the Court the pista area, where you

15 said that you stayed for one day.

16 A. On that day, I was taken to be interrogated in this building here

17 where the restaurant was. It was on the first floor that I was

18 interrogated. And then three policemen escorted me, and I was ordered

19 here in this area between the building where the interrogation took place

20 and this other building, I was ordered to lie down on the ground. There

21 were a number of inmates there already. I was told to lie face down on

22 the ground, and everyone I found there was lying in the same position.

23 Q. You're pointing to the area between the building that you've

24 called the restaurant building and the long red building. Is that

25 correct, as the pista area?

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. What is the building in -- at the front of the photograph? Do you

3 know?

4 A. You mean this one?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. This is the white house. That's how we referred to it. Although

7 I'd say "black house" would be a more appropriate name. However, we did

8 call it "white house".

9 Q. And the other building on the far right-hand side of the

10 photograph?

11 A. This one, we used to call it the red house.

12 Q. Was there a name that you had for the long red building where you

13 were detained?

14 A. We called it the hangar. There below, camp inmates were

15 accommodated. But before, there were iron ore mine facilities there

16 inside, and heavy machinery used in the mines, so that's perhaps why it

17 was called "hangar".

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: If that photograph could be returned to the

19 registry.

20 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that you were interrogated. Do you

21 recall the people that interrogated you, the names of the people?

22 A. Yes. Zare Tejic. Babic was the last name of the other person. I

23 don't know his first name. But they both used to work in the Prijedor

24 SUP.

25 Q. Do you know what positions they held? Prior to the war?

1 A. I think they were investigators. Zare Tejic was first a

2 policeman, and then an inspector, but I know they both worked in the SUP.

3 I knew them because they would often come to my catering establishment.

4 Q. Were you mistreated during your detention at Omarska?

5 A. Maltreatment was constant. They were plundering. They were

6 taking away our watches. Everything we had on us, leather jackets, rings,

7 they were beating us. They were calling out our names. They kept

8 provoking us all the time in the camp.

9 Q. Were you ever beaten?

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. When did this occur?

12 A. This occurred between the 18th and the 20th of June. Again, it

13 was difficult to tell which time it was. Time ceased to matter for us.

14 But I think that it was in that period because (redacted)

15 (redacted) And it was maybe a week after

16 that. In the evening hours, around 11.00 in the evening, my name was

17 called out, and I was afraid that the same thing would happen to me as had

18 happened to others because if anyone came back at all, then at least they

19 had been badly beaten. So at first, I decided not to respond. But when

20 they called my name again, I heard a voice saying: "Nothing will happen

21 to you. There's a parcel here for you." So I decided to come out.

22 I reached the gate, and there outside Nenad Janjic, Neso, was

23 waiting for me, and Vlado Kobas was with him. Vlado Kobas was holding a

24 nylon bag. He gave it to me and said: (redacted)

25 (redacted) Then he

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1 turned around and left.

2 At that moment, Nenad, Neso, Janjic told me: "Come with me, so

3 you can have your meal in peace." I followed him from Room 15 down the

4 corridor, and there on the left-hand side there was an office with

5 "police" written on the door in Cyrillic letters. I entered the room,

6 and I asked him: (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 Then he took me with him. He told me to follow him. I left the

17 office and headed for Room 19 and then down the stairs. Then he asked me:

18 "Where's your car? Where's your money? Where did you hide it?" As we

19 knew each other well, I tried to explain that I had been building a house

20 of my own, so I had no money left, at which point he hit me very hard, and

21 then he dealt another blow. I fell down the stairs after the first blow.

22 Ure also took part in this. "He also told me, Ekrem Melkic also, told me

23 that there was no money. And I took him away, he suddenly had some, but

24 that's why he's dead today." Then I fell down, and he ordered me to stand

25 up. I stood up. He took me towards the exit, the door I came in when I

1 entered the camp first. We left the building, and he shouted: "Krkan,

2 Krkan, what shall I do with this man? I just found him. When shall we

3 leave?" And he answered: "Tomorrow. Can't you see I'm busy now?"

4 Zeljko Meakic, the commander of the camp, was also there. I also

5 saw Miro Solaja, who was lying on the ground, and a bit further down, I

6 saw Silvo Saric, who was being beaten. Then Milorad Tadic, called Brk,

7 ordered me to go back to Room 15. But he warned me not to try to escape

8 because tomorrow, they would be there for me to take them to my house and

9 give them the money I had hidden there. After I returned to Room 15, I

10 decided to try to hide. So I was no longer in the room in which I had

11 been, but there two other rooms under this one. At the entrance to the

12 building on the left-hand side, there were two washbasins, cement

13 washbasins, and I decided just to squat under one of these and not to

14 respond when they called my name. They did call my name out twice

15 afterwards, but I didn't respond. I was only saved by my good luck.

16 That's all I can say.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I wonder, out of an abundance of

18 caution, whether we need to make a redaction at 12.03.40 and following, in

19 relation to the (redacted).

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. It may be redacted.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND:

22 Q. Sir, were you -- in the last answer that you gave, were you

23 referring to (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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1 (redacted)

2 Q. You mentioned that you saw two people at the exit of the hangar

3 building, Silvo Saric. What position did he hold in Prijedor?

4 A. I think he was the president of the Prijedor HDZ.

5 Q. Miroslav Solaja? Forgive my pronunciation.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What was his occupation?

8 A. Miroslav -- Miro Solaja, we used to call him Miro, he was a driver

9 for the Prijedor Football Club.

10 Q. You stated that you had been beaten by Milorad Tadic, otherwise

11 known as Brk. How long had you known this person for?

12 A. Well, for quite a long time actually. He worked in the Agriunija,

13 agricultural union in Kozarac. On the way out of Kozarac, if you take the

14 road to Trnopolje, this Agriunija community was on the left-hand side of

15 the road.

16 Q. How long had you known him for? Approximately how many years?

17 A. Quite long. Perhaps 7, 8, maybe 9 years. Anyway, I'd known him

18 for a long time. We go back to the time when he worked at the Agriunija,

19 and then he used to be a taxi driver in Omarska. So he came quite often

20 to my house also, and we knew each other quite well.

21 Q. Did you know the man, the other man, who was with Milorad Tadic

22 otherwise known as Brk?

23 A. No, I didn't. I saw him for the first time in Omarska. And he

24 was a guard in Nenad Janjic's, Neso, shift. They called him Ure. That

25 is, Brk referred to him that night as Ure. He had a limp in one of his

1 legs. He was an older man really.

2 Q. What were they beating you with?

3 A. What were they beating us with? Mostly they kicked us with their

4 military boots. Ure beat me with some sort of a rod, or more like a

5 baseball bat. It was made of wood. He was carrying a length of thick,

6 industrial cable in his hand. And there was a piece of iron tied to one

7 end of this industrial cable to beat prisoners with.

8 Q. Did you receive a permanent injury from this beating?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What sort of injury?

11 A. I have some injuries on my left leg.

12 Q. Do you have a scar from the beating?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. How long is the scar, and how wide?

15 A. It's about 11 or 12 centimetres long and about 3 centimetres wide,

16 3 and a half maybe.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, were all the redactions caught in

18 relation to the witness's sister?

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I hope so, yes.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.

21 Q. You said that you saw Silvo Saric, the president of the HDZ party,

22 and Miroslav Solaja. What did you see happening to them?

23 A. I saw that they had been beaten. Miro Solaja was lying

24 unconscious beside a pillar. I saw Zeljko Meakic beating Silvo Saric.

25 Q. How long had you known Zeljko Meakic for?

1 A. Not really for a very long time. But he also used to come to my

2 catering establishment. We were not really close. He used to come to my

3 restaurant sometime with his friends, so that's how I knew him.

4 Q. Did you ever see any corpses in the Omarska camp?

5 A. Yes, I did. That day, when there was, as they used to call it,

6 breakfast, groups of between 20 and 30 people went out of Room 15 to have

7 breakfast, and then we were not allowed to immediately return to Room 15.

8 But we had to finish up breakfast -- and it was a kind of meadow -- before

9 we were allowed to return to the room. At one point, we were suddenly

10 ordered to keep our heads down. When I heard this order, of course, we

11 all kept our heads down. But out of sheer curiosity, I didn't keep my

12 head all the way down so I could see that from the direction of the red

13 house, there was a TAM truck arriving. It was a yellow TAM truck, driven

14 by Vlado Kobas. With him in the car were another two people. The vehicle

15 passed us by. And as it drove by, I saw Islam Bahonjic's dead body, and

16 Muharem Kahrimanovic's dead body, who was a driver for the Celuloza

17 company. I recognised these two bodies because they were lying on top of

18 the heap. I didn't recognise the other bodies.

19 Q. What was Islam Bahonjic's occupation before the war?

20 A. Before the war, Islam Bahonjic was an x-ray technician. And he

21 worked in the Prijedor hospital.

22 Q. Vlado Kobas, what was his occupation before the war, the driver of

23 the vehicle -- the TAM truck?

24 A. Before the war, Vlado Kobas worked in the Omarska mine, in the

25 company where we were, in fact, kept prisoner. I got to know him because

1 he used to, when I had built my new house, he built a part of the

2 construction, something to do with drainpipes. And that's when I actually

3 met him for the first time. He used to come to my house.

4 Q. What were the condition of the bodies of Islam Bahonjic and

5 Muharem Kahrimanovic?

6 A. As far as I could see, I didn't dare raise my head to take a good

7 look, but I could see that they were dead bodies, bodies that had been

8 beaten.

9 Q. Did you ever see any dead bodies near the white house?

10 A. Yes. You could see -- sometimes they would take us to the toilet

11 outside Room 15, up near the white house. And then you could see.

12 Q. On how many occasions did you see dead bodies near the white

13 house?

14 A. Often. When we went to have the so-called breakfast, while we

15 were queuing up, we could see that.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm about to move on to another

17 topic, so this would be a good time to break.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stands adjourned until 2.00.

19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

22 You may continue.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Sir, this morning, you mentioned in your testimony that when you

25 first arrived at Omarska, there were a number of people that were taken

1 away, Hajrudin Jakupovic, Zilhad Hodzic, and Muhamed Ergelic. Do you

2 recall that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Did you ever see them again?

5 A. No, I never saw them again.

6 Q. You mentioned that when you first got off the bus, you saw Kvocka

7 and Radic. Did you --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you see anybody else?

10 A. Yes, there were a number of people there I didn't know. Uniformed

11 persons, persons wearing camouflage uniforms. Upon entering Room 15, I

12 found out that they were civilian police, that's what they called them.

13 Q. Did these persons belong to any particular group that you know of?

14 A. I only heard that there were paramilitary units there who were

15 neither the police, nor the army proper. That was before the takeover in

16 Prijedor.

17 Q. Also before we broke for lunch, in reference to the white house,

18 you said a more appropriate name would be "black house." What did you

19 mean by that?

20 A. In the white house, every day, you could see people being beaten

21 as we were on our way to lunch, they would bring people to the white

22 house. Once I saw that Becir Medunjanin was among the people being

23 brought there. And many other people, too. The horror that took place in

24 the camp, probably most of it took place in the white house.

25 Q. Can you describe for the Court the conditions in Omarska camp, the

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1 conditions in relation to food, water, hygiene.

2 A. These conditions are very difficult to describe because the

3 conditions as such were not there. This word would have been pointless in

4 the Omarska camp. There were no conditions. It was like animals, perhaps

5 even animals would have been treated better. There were no hygiene

6 facilities. We were taken to eat once a day. The time we were given to

7 eat was two minutes. You had to run to the kitchen, while being beaten

8 and hit. On the way back, you were being beaten again. There was no

9 health care, no medical attention. It's just quite difficult to describe

10 such conditions and how man could survive that.

11 Q. How often were you provided with water to drink?

12 A. Sometimes they would give us water. Most often, we had no water.

13 Even if they gave us some, it was usually water with a special flavour,

14 probably water taken from the hydrant, industrial water. Certainly not

15 drinking water. So we didn't really have enough water either.

16 Q. Did you see anyone from the Serb authorities in the camp?

17 A. In the Omarska camp, no, I didn't see any of them there. Because

18 on that day, we didn't leave Room 15. But I heard that Simo Drljaca,

19 Brdjanin, Zeljaja, Arsic, Kupresanin did visit the camp. This was the

20 group of people who visited the camp. But I must say again that I did not

21 see them myself; I just heard that they came.

22 Q. Did you ever see Simo Drljaca in the camp?

23 A. I saw him in the camp twice. That's in Omarska.

24 Q. Do you recall when this occurred?

25 A. The first time I saw him, it was at lunchtime. We were lined up.

1 We were about 30 people there waiting to have lunch in the restaurant. He

2 was standing near the restaurant with a woman. That was the first time I

3 saw him.

4 The second time, it was also within the camp. He was there with

5 Zeljko Meakic, and I noticed that Zeljko Meakic was carrying some papers

6 in his hand.

7 Q. How long had you known Simo Drljaca for?

8 A. Prior to the war, perhaps for two or three years. Usually I'd

9 meet him at Aco Ostojic's [phoen] catering establishment in Prijedor.

10 Q. Do you know what Simo Drljaca did before the takeover, what his

11 occupation was?

12 A. Simo Drljaca was a lawyer. He worked in education. He worked

13 with schools, something like that.

14 Q. I'd now like to turn to another topic. Do you know a person

15 called Said Dzihic?

16 A. Did you say Said Dzihic, perhaps?

17 Q. Yes. I apologise for my pronunciation.

18 A. Yes, I do know that person.

19 Q. Do you know a person called Fikret Balic?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Where were they detained in Omarska?

22 A. They were with me in Room 15.

23 Q. Do you recall if they were called out of Room 15 at the end of

24 July 1992?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Do you recall the date?

2 A. It was perhaps the 24th or the 25th of July. I think it was on

3 the 24th or the 25th.

4 Q. What, if anything, did they say to you upon their return to the

5 room?

6 A. When they returned to Room 15, Said Dzihic told me that he had

7 been loading dead bodies.

8 Q. Did he mention how many bodies and where he was loading the

9 bodies?

10 A. He said that there had been around a hundred dead bodies. They

11 had loaded these bodies on to a lorry.

12 Q. Did he say where these bodies were?

13 A. He told me that he had recognised Dr. Jusuf Pasic's body. Zijad

14 Mahmuljin, who had been the manager of the sawmill in Kozarac. Ilijaz

15 Jakupovic, nicknamed Ilko. He said that he had been able to recognise

16 these bodies, but that he couldn't identify the other bodies. He said he

17 had seen some terrible things, bodies with severed heads, bodies

18 mutilated.

19 Q. Did he tell you where he was loading these bodies?

20 A. In the red house.

21 Q. Why is it that you remember this date, the 24th or the 25th of

22 July, 1992?

23 A. Well, you know, from the very first to the very last day in the

24 camp, we had a really, really difficult time. But on those particular

25 days of July, around the 24th and the 25th, there was some sort of a

1 catharsis. Names were being called out all the time. The things that

2 happened at that time were things that hadn't happened at the camp

3 previously. This period was probably the period of cleansing. They were

4 cleansing part of the people there. So that's why I still remember these

5 two dates.

6 Q. I want to turn now to the 6th of August, 1992. You said that you

7 were detained in Omarska up until that date. What happened on that day?

8 A. On the first day, names were called out since the morning hours.

9 Zeljko Meakic was reading names out from a list. No one told us where we

10 were headed to. Those whose names were called out had to get on to buses.

11 Q. Was your name called out?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you got on the buses, where did you go? I'm sorry.

14 Approximately how many buses did you see in the Omarska camp that day?

15 A. There may have been about 50 buses inside the camp.

16 Q. And again, what sort of buses were they?

17 A. Those were also Autotransport Prijedor buses.

18 Q. When you were put on the bus, where did the bus go?

19 A. The buses left. And on the buses, people were being maltreated by

20 the escorting police. They ordered us not to watch out of the bus

21 windows. There were lots of us on the bus.

22 Q. Approximately how many people were on your bus?

23 A. There were about, perhaps, 80 people. It was a busload, and we

24 weren't seated. We had to lie down, but the bus was full.

25 Q. What time did you leave the Omarska camp?

1 A. That was in the afternoon hours.

2 Q. Did you have any escorts on the buses?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you recognise any of these people?

5 A. I did recognise a number of them when we reached Manjaca, the

6 Manjaca camp. But in the bus that I was on, I recognised none of the

7 guards.

8 Q. What sort of uniform -- I'm sorry. How were they dressed?

9 A. The ones that I saw there, and the ones that I could recognise, I

10 saw Brane Bosnjak, the policeman.

11 Q. How were they dressed?

12 A. They were wearing police uniforms.

13 Q. What time did you arrive at the Manjaca camp, if you recall?

14 A. Sometime after midnight. Between midnight and early morning. We

15 didn't have our watches on us. It had all been taken from us, watches and

16 other personal belongings in Omarska. So it must have been sometime after

17 midnight the following day.

18 Q. When you arrived in Manjaca, did you witness anyone being

19 mistreated?

20 A. Yes. Names were being called out again. Nezir Krak, the car

21 mechanic from Prijedor was also called out. Dedo Crnalic. Names were

22 being called out until daybreak.

23 Q. Did anything happen to either of these people?

24 A. Yes. Unfortunately, they never got out alive. They never left

25 the camp, and I never saw them again.

1 Q. When did you -- when were you released from the Manjaca camp?

2 A. On the 18th of December, 1992.

3 Q. Before your release, besides the international Red Cross, did

4 anyone else visit the Manjaca camp?

5 A. Yes. On one occasion in Manjaca, Brdjanin came. In this stable

6 where I was, where we were, he spoke to us. He was escorted by the camp

7 commander -- deputy camp commander, a man we called Spaga. He spoke to

8 the inmates that time, and he said: "Serbian prisoners get a very

9 different treatment." What we have is more like a hotel. And he said

10 they were trying to ensure our release and our transport to third

11 countries. And the whole situation, whatever was happening to us, he

12 said: "Alija Izetbegovic, the government, and the SDA were to blame."

13 Those were his words.

14 Q. How did you know that it was Mr. Brdjanin that addressed the

15 detainees in Manjaca?

16 A. Mr. Brdjanin was a difficult man not to know. He often appeared

17 in the media, on the television. He was a very high-ranking SDS

18 politician. So I simply knew him.

19 Q. You said he often appeared in the media, on television. What did

20 you hear him say on television?

21 A. Whenever he spoke, at least, the ones I witnessed, although I had

22 little time to follow the events, but it really was a period that boded

23 ill. So there was general interest in what was going on and the

24 statements that were made. Most often, he used expressions like "Turks."

25 He called Muslim people Turks. He said their place was not here. He

1 emanated a sort of negative energy in all his appearances, which did not

2 help the inter-ethnic relations at the time.

3 Q. When you saw him on television, what time period is this? 1992 or

4 prior to 1992, or both?

5 A. Ever since the first multiparty elections, the preelection rallies

6 from 1991 onwards, all the leading figures from the three nationalist

7 parties often appeared on TV.

8 Q. Do you specifically recall seeing him in the first five months of

9 1992 prior to your detention?

10 A. It's difficult to remember now, and I can't say with any degree of

11 certainty the period, whether it was five months earlier or later. I

12 really can't recall, but these appearances were quite frequent.

13 Q. I want to turn now to another topic -- I'm sorry, before I do

14 that, can you make a comparison between the conditions in Omarska and the

15 conditions in Manjaca.

16 A. Yes. Manjaca, too, was a camp. But after the International Red

17 Cross came, the situation improved really. As I've often said myself, it

18 was luxury compared to Omarska, although, Manjaca, too, was a camp and

19 there were stables there where cows and sheep had been kept. But to

20 compare Omarska and Manjaca, that's after the Red Cross had arrived, the

21 difference was really huge in favour of Manjaca. Manjaca was a much safer

22 place. People weren't taken out of their -- out of their accommodation

23 facilities at night to be beaten. Nothing like that ever happened in

24 Manjaca.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me one moment, Your Honour.

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1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MS. SUTHERLAND:

3 Q. Sir, I want to turn now to another topic. Can you please tell the

4 Court the names of any of the policemen that you know were killed in the

5 Omarska camp.

6 A. I'll try to remember all of them. That is, all of those whom I

7 knew. Muhamed Fazlic was one of them. Hajrudin Jakupovic. Mirsad Alic.

8 Esad Alic.

9 Q. Do you know the person -- do you know a person by the name of Emir

10 Karabasic?

11 A. Yes, Emir Karabasic. It's very difficult for me to remember all

12 of them at this moment. Yes, you're right, Emir Karabasic was also one of

13 them.

14 Q. Muhamed Jakupovic, do you know a person by that name?

15 A. Yes, I do. Yes, Muhamed Jakupovic.

16 Q. Was he detained in Omarska?

17 A. I am not entirely sure, although I know Muhamed Jakupovic very

18 well. He used to be a traffic policeman and was originally from Kamicani.

19 I cannot tell you for sure whether he was or wasn't. I think he was, but

20 again, I'm not certain.

21 Q. You have already mentioned Zilhad Hodzic.

22 A. Zilhad Hodzic. I believe I mentioned him.

23 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Ibrahim Denic?

24 A. Braco, yes. We used to call him Braco. That was his nickname,

25 yes, Ibrahim Denic.

1 Q. Was he also detained in Omarska?

2 A. Yes, he was. On that night, he entered Room 15 together with me.

3 But shortly after that, he was called out, maybe half an hour later. And

4 I never saw him again.

5 Q. Can you give the Trial Chamber the names of people you know who

6 have been missing since 1992, policemen, the names of policemen who have

7 been missing since 1992?

8 A. The names of the policemen whom I knew went missing are Emir

9 Karabasic, Muhamed Jakupovic, Muhamed Fazlic, Ekrem Besic.

10 Q. Do you know a person by the name of -- I'm sorry. Continue.

11 What was the name you just mentioned?

12 A. Klipic. It's a family name. He was from Jakupovici. I don't

13 know his family name. He was also an active police officer.

14 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Edin Besic?

15 A. Edin Besic, Boca we used to call him. His nickname was Boca. He

16 was also from Kozarac. Osman Didovic.

17 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Emsud Bahonjic?

18 A. Emsud Bahonjic, yes, he was with the reserve police force. Akib

19 Deumic, also a member of the reserve police force.

20 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Edin Mujagic?

21 A. Edin Mujagic, yes, a traffic policeman.

22 Q. The names that you've just mentioned, did they all disappear in

23 1992?

24 A. To this date, none of these reappeared, which means that they all

25 went missing in 1992.

1 Q. I want to turn now to other people that weren't policemen who

2 either died or went missing in 1992. Can you please name them. And if

3 you know the circumstances of their fate, can you please tell the Court.

4 A. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted) He disappeared in

8 Omarska.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have to break for a moment. And please

10 redact from page 59 --

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Line 19?

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Line 19 to 23.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please continue.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND:

16 Q. Do you recall the names of any other persons that either died or

17 went missing in 1992 besides your relatives?

18 A. I have already mentioned some of them. Omer Mahmuljin is not

19 related to me. Hamdija Avdagic also. He was also from Kozarac. Jusuf

20 Muretcehajic. It really is a long list. The only problem is that at the

21 moment, I cannot remember all of it. It was a long time ago.

22 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Osman Hasanagic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know his fate?

25 A. He also disappeared on Vlasic.

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1 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Vasif Mujkanovic?

2 A. Vasif Mujkanovic also went missing in 1992. I believe that he was

3 with this convoy carrying 250 people on the Vlasic mountain.

4 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Dzevad Besic?

5 A. Yes. Dzevad Besic was a forester. He also went missing. I don't

6 know the circumstances of his disappearance, but I know that he never

7 showed up again.

8 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Hamdija Avdagic?

9 A. Yes, Hamdija Avdagic as I said, he disappeared in Kozarac(redacted)

10 (redacted) Nijaz Memic, a football player from Kozarac who

11 disappeared in Omarska.

12 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Sakib Mujkanovic?

13 A. Yes. He spent entire time in the white house, but he used to work

14 in the mine complex, that is, in the compound where we were detained.

15 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Suad Besic, otherwise known as

16 Dudo?

17 A. Dudo, yes, I know him. He, too, disappeared in Omarska.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, out of an abundance of caution, I

19 think we need to redact on page 60, lines 24 and 25. Or just line 25, the

20 first three words.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: On my computer, it's starting already 24, 25.

22 The sentence may be redacted, please.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND:

24 Q. Do you know the name of a person called Fadil Colic?

25 A. Yes, I know him, Fadil Colic owned a car repair shop, a Mercedes

1 workshop before the war. He lived at Urije, a neighbourhood situated

2 between Kamicani and Kevljani in the direction of --

3 Q. Do you know of his fate?

4 A. All I know is that he's missing.

5 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Sead Crnic?

6 A. Sead Crnic?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

10 A. He's from Kozarusa. He used to play the guitar in a local band.

11 He disappeared in Kozarac, but I am not familiar with the circumstances of

12 his disappearance.

13 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Akib Deumic otherwise known as

14 Pcelica?

15 A. Yes. I mentioned him. Akib Deumic, also known as Pcelica, he

16 used to be a member of the police force. He went missing in Kozarac.

17 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Muhamed Babic?

18 A. Yes. He was a cook. He worked in a restaurant in Kozarac. But

19 he was also my bookkeeper. He used to help me in the kitchen as well,

20 when he had time.

21 Q. Do you know the name of a person called Ahmed Blazevic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

24 A. He's from Kozarusa. He also disappeared sometime in 1992. I

25 don't know exactly how, but he was not in Omarska.

1 Q. Do you know a person called Suad Jakupovic, otherwise known as

2 Sudo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

5 A. That day, he was singled out at the checkpoint in Kozarusa. He

6 remained in the space which we called a tin container. I think that

7 Commander Prpus from Prijedor is his brother-in-law or is otherwise

8 related to him.

9 Q. Do you know whether he is still alive today?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You don't know, or he's not alive today?

12 A. No, he never came back. Since that day in 1992, he has never

13 reappeared.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would like to go into private

15 session to ask the witness some information about his property.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can't see any objections, so therefore private

17 session.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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4 [Open session]

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be provided with the

6 B/C/S version of Exhibit 130, please.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence is in possession of this document in

8 B/C/S as well, in order to crosscheck?

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's Number 190 from the Rule 65 ter list. We

10 have a spare copy if you would like one.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you need a spare copy for your client?

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, please, if possible.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND:

15 Q. Witness, could you please read the document that you have in front

16 of you.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, for the record, it's a document

18 signed by Simo Drljaca, the chief of the SJB in Prijedor. Communication

19 number 11-12-2031, dated 29 May, 1992. It's addressed to the Banja Luka

20 CSB. And the subject of the document is: "Re: Your communication number

21 11-2709-401," dated 28 May, 1992.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As a question of principle, this document, can

23 you check on your database whether or not, for example, this document is

24 available in an original? We'll see that it might be a copy, but having a

25 signature, say, in blue or dark and on the top of the page, the numbering,

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1 or is it limited to photocopies only?

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour. I can get what is the most

3 original, whatever document is in the evidence unit that has this ERN

4 number.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Thank you.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND:

7 Q. Sir, you testified earlier that a large number of policemen were

8 detained in the collection centres and were either killed or disappeared

9 in 1992. Could you please read out for the Court paragraph number 2.

10 A. Yes, I can.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please be even more kind and read the

12 entire document for us, that we understand the context of the document.

13 Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "On the basis of your communication

15 of the above number and date, we hereby submit to you the following

16 details: Firstly, in Prijedor, there is one police station with general

17 authority with three branch stations; Omarska police department, Kozarac

18 police department, and Ljubija police department.

19 "Before the conflict broke out, there were 107 active policemen,

20 26 of them from the Kozarac area. A number of these policemen were killed

21 in combat operations, and the others are in the collection centre.

22 "The following command posts have been filled: Prijedor police

23 station commander, two deputy commanders, and two commanders of branch

24 stations. Vacant posts: One deputy commander, one assistant commander,

25 and one branch station commander. Kozarac police department.

1 "Following combat activities, the minimum number of policemen

2 required to complete duties and tasks successfully should be between 150

3 and 180.

4 "There is a police station for road safety and traffic control in

5 Prijedor.

6 "This station currently has 32 posts and 20 police officers to

7 fill them.

8 "The commander of the station is in Bosanska Gradiska prison. The

9 deputy commander runs the station, while the assistant is in the

10 collection centre.

11 "The new war structure anticipates 13 police stations, plus the

12 police station for road safety and traffic control.

13 "The war structure anticipates 1.342 members in general police

14 stations, and 52 members in the road safety station. Of that number 1.214

15 should be reserve, and 180 active police officers.

16 "The previous war structure anticipated 630 policemen. The new

17 war structure, which is functioning now, was prepared during secret

18 preparations for the takeover. It is believed that this war structure can

19 ensure the successful performance of police duties and tasks."

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND:

22 Q. Sir, looking at the final paragraph where it reads: "The new war

23 structure which is functioning now was prepared during secret preparations

24 for the takeover."

25 A. Secret, yes.

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1 Q. Were you aware of any preparations before the takeover occurred?

2 A. No. I wasn't familiar with any of the communiques or rather

3 incoming documents to the police station before the takeover. I didn't

4 have any insight into these matters. I was only in the reserve component

5 of the police force. So I had no access to such documents. And after

6 all, this document was drafted when I was already in Omarska.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I have no further questions of the

8 witness.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

10 Witness, may we ask you to return tomorrow. Then the Defence will

11 have some additional questions, and also the Judges. For today, you are

12 excused. Thank you very much.

13 [The witness stands down].

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stands adjourned until 3.45.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.24 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 3.47 p.m.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

19 Please.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I've located the original of

21 Prosecution Exhibit S130.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If it could be presented to the Defence.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: I've shown it to the Defence.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we also have a look.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. The signature is in blue ink, and the

1 reference number at the top of the document is also in blue ink.

2 Your Honour --

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the stamp with registration number P

4 following can be seen in red, just for the record. Thank you.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, would you like the Office of the

6 Prosecutor to obtain a colour photocopy of that so you can see the

7 difference, the blue ink.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That would be great indeed.

9 Yes. We have to conclude our work. It's still open. You

10 tendered this document S130A and B. Objections?

11 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, only again, we cannot confirm the

12 signature of Simo Drljaca. Otherwise, we don't have any objections.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Therefore and thereby, this document,

14 former 190, is admitted into evidence under Number 130A for the English

15 version, B for the French version. And please, registry, add to this

16 document that it was read out on today's transcript, 10 June, 2002, on

17 pages 71 following.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, would it be 130B for the B/C/S, and

19 130C for the French version?

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We don't -- do we have really a French version

21 already?

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: That is what is in the transcript, Your Honour.

23 You said 130B for the French version.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. A for English, B for B/C/S. And just to

25 know that we have a rough translation on the transcript, page 71 following

1 in today's transcript. Okay.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the registry acts extremely careful. And I

4 was told that one videoclip, you remember it was a very short one with a

5 speech of Mr. Karadzic, tendered under number S117 was not yet admitted.

6 Are there any objections from the Defence?

7 MR. LUKIC: If I remember properly, it's a few seconds clip.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right.

9 MR. LUKIC: And I don't know if we have it. So if there is a

10 complete version of that video, so we can see what's coming after it or

11 what we have before it.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. The Defence has the longer tape that that's a

13 part of. It was disclosed on the 25th of March. It's from the videotape

14 that is excerpts from the "Death of Yugoslavia" programme.

15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. We have no objections, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then this is admitted into evidence as number

17 S117. This clip shown on that day only.

18 Then during the break, not knowing yet about the outcome of our

19 more or less admittedly fishing expedition on the "most original document"

20 as regards S130, we conferred during the break and hereby order as

21 follows: All the documents included in Exhibit 54, this is list 2, and

22 55, this is list 3, where reference is made to alleged authenticity of a

23 document of Dr. Stakic, be it just a print in a newspaper or in the

24 official gazette, be it a document without signature at all but giving at

25 least the impression that this document was signed by Dr. Stakic, and

1 documents signed -- documents where we still have not yet clarification on

2 the authenticity, I refer to the transcript of last Friday, all these

3 documents shall be presented by the OTP in the most original version in

4 order to allow the Defence to come to a fair decision on their way

5 deciding whether or not to comment on the one or other document. Of

6 course, it has to be emphasised there's no duty at all for the Defence.

7 It's, of course, the predominant right to remain silent. But

8 nevertheless, it would also in the interests of justice and all the Judges

9 would like to see these documents in the most appropriate way.

10 We received the Prosecution's third notice for admission of

11 transcripts and statements pursuant to Rule 92 bis dated 7 June, 2002

12 proposing that the written statements of another six witnesses should be

13 admitted into evidence under this rule. We regard it as adequate, taking

14 into account that we sit the entire day from Monday through Thursday, to

15 discuss and come to a conclusion no later but Monday, 17 June, 2002. This

16 should not be confused with that what I announced earlier this day, that

17 is, rethinking of former statements admitted into evidence under Rule 92

18 bis already in the past, but with a view to the Appeals Chamber's

19 decision. Here, we expect the observations of the parties no later than

20 Monday, 8 July.

21 Furthermore, I learned by the registry that Document 59 was not

22 yet admitted into evidence. It was tendered. And it's our intention to

23 proceed as follows: That at least most of the documents to be found in

24 these lists 2 and 3, there should be as soon as possible access for all

25 the Judges, first of all, at the same time, and at the same time, it

1 should be safeguarded that the Defence has a possibility to view whether

2 or not they believe that the translation in the one or other point may be

3 inappropriate. Therefore, the intention is to start to read out these

4 documents in the courtroom. And could we please start with Document 59 in

5 the English version. And it's free for the parties to comment on this

6 document by document, both to the content and to the translation.

7 Please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Serbian --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, Your Honour, do the interpreters have

10 originals of these documents or B/C/S translations? Are we expected to do

11 a sight translation of these documents?

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course not. The booth needs two copies or

13 how many? How many documents are needed by --

14 THE INTERPRETER: One copy, Your Honour, please.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I just make one comment. It really doesn't

16 make sense to me to check the translation of this document being read from

17 English into B/C/S when we have the B/C/S original. The original is in

18 B/C/S. I understand the purpose of this is so we have a French

19 translation.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have a French translation, and at the same

21 time to give the Defence the opportunity to object to the translation.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: We have a certified translation the Defence has had

23 for quite some time on all of these documents.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Nevertheless, I think you are aware that the one

25 or other point was made by the Defence as regards translation. It was

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1 only to point out that this is the appropriate time to make any such

2 comments.

3 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we have those documents in our locker

4 here, but we don't have it with us. We don't drag these trolleys with us

5 every day. So we have to decide what to bring to the courtroom, and we

6 didn't know we are going to deal with this. If you allow my case manager

7 just to go and fetch our binders.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think we have two copies. You can borrow mine.

9 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Thanks.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for the assistance.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: But we have to give our copy to the translation

12 booth, so we are short.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In the meantime, are there any other

14 observations by the parties?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: As to the 92 bis and the decision of the 7th of

16 June on the Galic case, I've read that decision, and it's consistent with

17 our view of the rule. Our position has not changed on any of the 92 bis

18 submissions.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's only fair to give also the Defence

20 to rethink this in the light of the new decision. I am not surprised by

21 your view, but I think it's only fair. It becomes more and more difficult

22 in this Tribunal to get immediate access to the newest judicial

23 development. And therefore, I thought it was necessary to provide you

24 with this. And I mentioned already that we have to conclude tomorrow at

25 4.00 sharp. On Wednesday, due to the fact that I have to sit on the

1 Appeals Chamber the same day, we have to conclude our meeting at 4.15.

2 It is my understanding that we have only one additional witness

3 this week?

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And it's a witness for two days?

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: My guess, it will be more than two days on direct

7 examination. I think the witness will take a minimum of three days.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Starting tomorrow.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Witness will not arrive until tomorrow night, so

10 starting Wednesday.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Starting Wednesday. Thank you for this

12 clarification.

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Excuse me. I have been corrected. The attorney

14 calling the witness, Ms. Korner, her estimate is two days for the witness

15 total. But I may be less optimistic.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we proceed.

17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then please start. Read out

19 Document, provisionally, S59.

20 THE REGISTRAR: "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

21 government. Excerpt from instructions for the work of the municipal

22 Crisis Staffs of the Serbian people. One, in a state of war, the Crisis

23 Staff shall assume all prerogatives and functions of the Municipal

24 Assemblies when they are unable to convene.

25 "Two, the Crisis Staff consists of members, each of whom has his

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1 own responsibilities. The president, deputy president, commander of the

2 TO, Territorial Defence staff, president of the executive committee, head

3 of Ministry of the Interior, and members responsible for the economy,

4 humanitarian, medical care, information, and propaganda, procurement and

5 food supplies, refugees, war crimes, and damage, communications,

6 coordination, et cetera.

7 "Three, the Crisis Staff coordinates the functions of authorities

8 in order to ensure the defence of the territories, the safety of the

9 population and property, the establishment of government, and the

10 organisation of all other areas of life and work. In so doing, the Crisis

11 Staff provides the conditions for the municipal executive committee to

12 exercise legal executive authority, run the economy, and other areas of

13 life.

14 "Four, the command of the TO and police forces is under the

15 exclusive authority of the professional staff, and therefore any

16 interference regarding the command of the TO and/or the use of the police

17 forces must be prevented.

18 "Five, ban the use of all artillery seized in combat or acquired

19 by other means which can be used to destroy towns and remove it far from

20 the confrontation line.

21 "Six, the work of the Crisis Staff is based on constitutional and

22 legal provisions and on decisions reached by the assembly, the presidency,

23 and the government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24 "Seven, the Crisis Staff shall convene a meeting of the Municipal

25 Assembly as soon as circumstances permit to have its work, conclusions,

1 and decisions verified.

2 "Eight, the Crisis Staff has the obligation to provide working and

3 living conditions for JNA, Yugoslav People's Army, members to ensure a

4 fair attitude towards JNA officers and soldiers, and prevent them from

5 being humiliated or insulted in any way. As far as the attitude towards

6 army property is concerned, it must be based on obligatory consultations

7 of the government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 "Nine, the Crisis Staff shall provide working conditions for the

9 international peace and relief organisations and ensure the unimpeded

10 transport of relief convoys to their destinations.

11 "Ten, the nonfighting population and the wounded must be treated

12 in the most humane fashion and in accordance with the ICRC. Prisoners of

13 war also must be treated humanely and in accordance with the rules of the

14 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15 "Eleven, the Crisis Staff shall gather information concerning the

16 field situation and to inform and consult the competent bodies of the

17 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina i.e., the government

18 commissioners appointed to the area especially threatened by war.

19 " 12, it is imperative not to disturb commercial and other economic

20 activities, as long as their documentation is in order. Prices must be

21 formed at a level which enables normal function. If necessary, limit the

22 prices of basic food stuffs, bread, butter, sugar and oil, and

23 subsequently introduce food rationing for the above-mentioned articles.

24 13, war profiteers, gangs of looters, and similar shall be

25 arrested and delivered to the investigating judicial organs of the Serbian

1 Republic.

2 14 The Crisis Staff shall convene and make decisions in the

3 presence of all its members, take official minutes, issue written

4 decisions and submit weekly reports to the regional and state

5 organisations of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 "Sarajevo, 26 April, 1992, prime minister, Branko Dzeric."

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

8 May I ask the Defence once more about observation -- objections.

9 MR. LUKIC: I'm not sure if I'm qualified to object at all. But

10 it seems to me that the translation is done properly and it was actually

11 done excellently.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And as for the admission into evidence of this

13 document?

14 MR. LUKIC: We have to stay on the same line, because there is no

15 signature on this document. So otherwise...

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then this document will be admitted into

17 evidence as S59A and B.

18 And it should be added, in our list of exhibits, that this

19 document was read out the 10th of June, transcript pages 80 following.

20 I think the last document we can achieve for today is the

21 following one: Number 60. But to avoid unnecessary double work, I think

22 it would be helpful if the OTP could find out whether or not the other

23 documents included in list 2 and 3 are available already in French. I

24 think the one or other should be there, at least I remember you telling us

25 that one of the longer documents would be available. But please don't

1 hesitate to come as soon as possible with the French translation. It

2 would facilitate our work here in the courtroom.

3 You wanted to comment on 60, telling us that in part, it was

4 already discussed?

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: It was read out, I believe, at least in part. I

6 recall reading it out.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Is there any necessity to read out this

8 document once more? I don't think so. We should add to the list of

9 exhibits also the point in time where -- when it was read out. We only

10 have to add that in the B/C/S version, we find a typed name "Stakic, Dr.

11 Milomir" not on the left-hand side under clerk, but on the right-hand

12 side, opposed to that what we have before us in English.

13 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, can it be entered that the letters are

14 different from the letters in which the whole text has been typed.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: From the point of view, it seems to be a kind of

16 bold.

17 MR. LUKIC: Bolded, yes.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But probably when having access to a "more

19 original" document, then it would facilitate the access to this document.

20 Let us turn now to Exhibit 61. Is it available for the booth? I

21 can offer one English, one B/C/S.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just for Your Honour, to help the registry, S60 was

23 read out on the 28th of May on page 3684.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you very much for the assistance.

25 The Defence has the document available as well? Yes, thank you.

1 But until we are prepared, I wonder if Document 62 is not already

2 translated into French. Otherwise, this should be done with high

3 priority.

4 We may start with Document S61, please.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Handwritten: "PS2-?29. 434, pursuant to the

6 decision of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the general

7 public mobilisation of forces and materiel in the republic, the Crisis

8 Staff of Prijedor municipality, considering the current situation and

9 conditions at the meeting held on 22nd of May, 1992, reached a decision on

10 mobilisation on the territory of Prijedor Municipality.

11 One: All conscripts assigned to the following war units. 4.777,

12 3.507, 5.456, 6.817, 2.982, 3.839, 6.588, and 4.853. And handwritten, TO,

13 8.316 are requested to report to their war units immediately. Those

14 conscripts who are assigned to other war units than those mentioned above

15 shall report immediately to the recruiting office, Zarko Zgonjanin

16 barracks in order to be given instructions with regard to mobilisation.

17 "Two, all conscripts below the age of 45 whose war assignment did

18 not defined in their military booklet to report immediately to the

19 Prijedor recruiting office, Zarko Zgonjanin barracks in order to be

20 registered and assigned their war schedule.

21 "Three, conscripts and people with a work obligation whose war

22 schedule has been regulated on the basis of their work obligation in

23 companies and other legal entities will carry out their regular work

24 assignments, in accordance with needs and plans. In other words, the

25 instructions given by the management of the enterprises where they work,

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1 that is, the wartime station to which they are assigned.

2 "Four, civilian protection members will not be called up until

3 further notice.

4 "Five, unfit and older conscripts and women without wartime

5 assignment shall be recruited if the need arises by a special announcement

6 or summons by the relevant organ or local commune.

7 "Six, failure to respond to the mobilisation shall result in legal

8 action.

9 "Number 03/3. Date: 22nd of May, 1992. President of the Crisis

10 Staff of the Municipality, Dr. Milomir Stakic."

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

12 And while the usher please distributes copies of Document Number

13 62, my question to the Office of the Prosecutor is, can you please tell us

14 until tomorrow whether or not the very long document S62 is available in

15 French?

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: I can tell you now it is not available in French.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

18 Is it possible to check until tomorrow whether or not other

19 documents contained in lists 2 and 3 are available in French?

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: We can check, yes.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It would be very kind if you could provide us

22 with such a list. And if you have access to the translation in French, of

23 course, as well. Thank you.

24 Will you then start reading out the final document for today.

25 THE REGISTRAR: S62: "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

1 Autonomous Region of Krajina, Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff.

2 National Defence, official secret. Strictly confidential. File number,

3 copy number.

4 "Instructions on the establishment, composition, and tasks of the

5 local Crisis Staffs in the Prijedor Municipality.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters believe that the original we

7 received is not the document that is being read out.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Apparently they got 63 instead of 62.

9 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I think that only in B/C/S this first

10 page is missing. Otherwise, the second page should be -- the English

11 second page should be the first page of the B/C/S version. Because in

12 B/C/S, I cannot see this first page at all.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This example demonstrates it's sometimes better

14 to crosscheck.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Does counsel have 00633738? Or 3737? It's a cover

16 page.

17 MR. LUKIC: I do have 3738, but I don't have the cover page.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The same was true for my file. And I gave only

19 two pages, one English and one in B/C/S, to the booth.

20 I think we have to continue on the basis of what the reliable

21 registry has.

22 THE REGISTRAR: So the first page in B/C/S, 3737, ends with

23 "Prijedor, June 1992."

24 Now we go to the second page. "Pursuant to Article 5 of the

25 decision on the organisation and work of the Prijedor Municipality Crisis

1 Staff of May 1992, the Crisis Staff, at its meeting held on June 1992,

2 hereby adopts the following instructions on the establishment,

3 composition, and tasks of the local Crisis Staffs in the Prijedor

4 municipality."

5 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me. Should we have some way to mark that there

6 is an oblique section. So maybe -- because this way, it looks like that

7 it's marked properly May 1992. And actually, there's missing part in a

8 date part.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's now on the record, your statement

10 can be...

11 Please proceed.

12 THE REGISTRAR: "One, general provisions. These instructions

13 serve to determine the establishment, composition, appointment, rights and

14 duties of the local Crisis Staffs and their relations with other

15 institutions and to designate the territory for which a local Crisis Staff

16 is formed.

17 "Two, the local Crisis Staffs are to be set up for the territory

18 of two or more local communes as temporary organs of civilian authority in

19 that territory with all the powers of the regularly elected organs.

20 "Three, in addition to ex officio members, primarily persons who

21 are completely loyal and committed to the policy and direction taken by

22 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the Autonomous Region of

23 Krajina, and enjoy great respect and trust in their own communities while

24 possessing the creative abilities and determination necessary for such

25 complex and responsible tasks, shall be considered for appointments to the

1 local Crisis Staff.

2 "Four, members of the local Crisis Staffs are to be appointed by

3 the Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff after receiving prior

4 recommendations and opinions from the local communes whose territory is to

5 be under the jurisdiction of that local Crisis Staff.

6 "Five, the following local Crisis Staffs are to be set up in the

7 Prijedor Municipality. One, the Prijedor centre local Crisis Staff for

8 the territory of local communes. Prijedor centre, Prijedor III. Two, the

9 Prijedor II local Crisis Staff for the territory of the local communes.

10 Prijedor II, Cirkin Polje. Three, the Omarska local Crisis Staff for the

11 territory of local communes, Omarska, Gradina, Lamovita, Maricka, Petrov

12 Gaj, and Kevljani. Four, the Rakelici local Crisis Staff for the

13 territory of local communes, Rakelici, Gomjenica, Cela, Rasavci, and

14 Busnovi. Five, the Brezicani local Crisis Staff for the territory of

15 local communes, Brezicani, D. Dragontinja, G. Dragontinja, Jutragosta,

16 Cejreci. Six, the Palanciste local Crisis Staff for the territory of

17 local communes: Palanciste, Jelovac, Bozici, and G. Orlovci. Seven, the

18 Ljubija local Crisis Staff for the territory of local communes: Ljubija,

19 Donja Ljubija, Gornji Ravska, Surkovac, Miska Glava, Ljeskare, and Volar.

20 Eight, the Orlovaca local Crisis Staff for the territory of local

21 communes: Orlovaca and Donja Orlovci. Nine, Tukovi local Crisis Staff,

22 interrogation mark."

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. I think we should stop here and try

24 to continue tomorrow when we have heard our witness. And thank you

25 especially for overcoming the problems that from our point of view and for

1 our language is -- are extreme tongue twisters.

2 We then have the break until tomorrow, 9.00. And continue

3 immediately with the cross-examination of Witness R.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 4.33 p.m., to be reconvened on

6 Tuesday, the 11th day of June, 2002,

7 at 9.00 a.m.

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