Page 4563
1 Thursday, 13 June 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, everybody. Please be seated.
6 Could you please call our case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the appearances, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Ann Sutherland, assisted by Ruth
11 Karper for the Prosecution.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: Branko Lukic with Mr. John Ostojic for the Defence.
14 Good morning, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The OTP had a request regarding the trial next
16 Monday. Can you please let us know what is the newest development from
17 your point of view.
18 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honour said you would give me an answer
19 today. The situation, very briefly, is this: If Your Honours will agree,
20 for the first hour and a half to the break, to have documents read, I can
21 complete the witness-in-chief in the other Court and will come straight
22 back here. Because I can leave cross-examination to someone else. If
23 Your Honours won't agree to that, then we will have to stop the witness
24 coming who's already coming, try and interpose another witness, and let
25 the Defence know that there will be a different witness.
Page 4564
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In which case? You said we have to stop the
2 witness coming.
3 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, the witness who is due to return on Monday
4 who is in the middle of giving his evidence-in-chief, because clearly in I
5 can't go back to complete him at 2.00, we'll have to try and interpose
6 another witness with the consent, obviously, with the Defence and the
7 Judges.
8 Your Honour, the only reason I'm asking is I understand Your
9 Honour has been using time to read documents into the record. And as I
10 said, I can only apologise that this situation has arisen. It's not one
11 that we hope will ever arise again, and it's arisen out of a combination
12 of unfortunate circumstances.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But we had the impression that the OTP knew
14 about this problem at least since last Friday.
15 MS. KORNER: I did, yes.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Our question was why couldn't we start with this
17 witness on Tuesday already? The witness before us now, Tuesday afternoon,
18 we could have started, because indeed, the preference should be given that
19 we hear an entire examination-in-chief without any break. And to a
20 certain extent, this is also a right of the Defence.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes. I appreciate that. As I say, it
22 is unfortunate. But why the witness didn't start on Tuesday afternoon was
23 the witness was still completing his statement and his review of the
24 documents. We understood that the earlier witness was going to go the
25 full length of Tuesday. Your Honour, all, in fact, that I'm asking is
Page 4565
1 that, for the first hour and a half, Your Honours deal with documents, and
2 the witness will then complete his evidence-in-chief.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we hear the observations by the Defence,
4 please.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. We have no objection to
6 proceeding in a manner that will be convenient for the Court and for the
7 OTP. So whichever works for all of us.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We discussed this already this morning. We
9 heard some slightly different commentaries now. We will come back to this
10 point after the break. We also have to take into account that we have to
11 go through the motion on 92 bis statements to be introduced no later than
12 Monday, and we have to discuss whether or not, if any, there are comments
13 as regards possible signatures and recognition or acceptance of the one or
14 other document. And indeed, this can be done. But at any rate, no later
15 than after the first break in any event, but I have to discuss it with my
16 colleagues. Thank you. But let's proceed immediately with the actual
17 witness, if there is no other observation.
18 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
20 [The witness entered court].
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning. We will continue with your
22 testimony being aware that you are still under the solemn declaration.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone Your Honour, please.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was a question, sorry.
25 MS. KORNER: Right.
Page 4566
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I did not hear the
2 translation of your question.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. It was my fault, not having the
4 microphone on. I said we will continue with your testimony. You are
5 aware that you are still under the solemn declaration? You are prepared
6 to continue?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm prepared.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
9 WITNESS: MEVLUDIN SEJMENOVIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]
12 Q. Now, Mr. Sejmenovic, I want to just go back before I deal with
13 what happened after the takeover to a couple of matters. First of all,
14 had there been any change before the takeover on the 30th of April to the
15 way that funds were being submitted to Sarajevo or anyone else? Anywhere
16 else, I should say.
17 A. There was a change in financial flows. The local control of money
18 was carried out through an institution called "Public Auditing Service" or
19 SDK, as we referred to it. According to law, the task of this Public
20 Auditing Service was to control all financial transactions. Therefore,
21 each enterprise with financial transactions was to register its financial
22 transactions with the Public Auditing Service. The money flowed from the
23 local level towards the republic level was also controlled through the
24 same institution, the SDK. Before the takeover, it was noticed that a
25 number of enterprises were no longer loyal, so to speak, to the Public
Page 4567
1 Auditing Service, as well as a number of banks. And they started
2 redirecting money to different destinations. Perhaps I should also add
3 that the Public Auditing Service was one of the disputed points concerning
4 the distribution of power. The SDS unconditionally insisted that the SDK,
5 the Public Auditing Service, should be under their control. The way
6 things were done eventually, this didn't happen.
7 After that, it was noticed that money from a number of enterprises
8 was being directed to Bosanska Gradiska and to Banja Luka. At first we
9 didn't understand why Bosanska Gradiska. But later on, we learned that
10 there was an equivalent service that had been set up there, a public
11 auditing service that was to control money transactions from Prijedor
12 enterprises controlled by Serbs.
13 Q. You told us that the SDS were insisting that the SDK should be
14 under their control. Could you have a look, please, at a document which
15 bears the 65 ter number 85. Perhaps we had better put the English version
16 up on the ELMO. Thank you.
17 After the preamble, which refers to the constitution of the
18 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there is a decision on
19 directing the revenues of the social political communities, their funds,
20 and other organisations and communities which states first: "The revenues
21 of the social political communities, their funds, and other organisations
22 and communities shall be directed to the deposit accounts in the territory
23 of the municipality where the depositor is located.
24 "Two, withdrawal of the revenues from the deposit accounts shall
25 be regulated by a special decision which shall be adopted subsequently.
Page 4568
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Page 4569
1 "Three, this decision shall come into force on the day of its
2 adoption, and it shall be implemented from the 1st of April, 1992.
3 "And four, the ministry of finance and the payments and auditing
4 service shall be responsible for the implementation of this decision."
5 It is a numbered copy. It is issued from Sarajevo on the 27th of
6 March, 1992. And it is then signed or stamped by the president of the
7 Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Momcilo
8 Krajisnik, with apparently the accuracy of the copy confirmed and
9 certified by the secretary of the Municipal Assembly, Mr. Pravuljac.
10 First, Mr. Sejmenovic, do you know this gentleman, the secretary
11 of the Municipal Assembly?
12 A. In my copy, the name is illegible. I can only see the last four
13 letters. This is a very bad copy.
14 Q. This states that the revenues that we've seen in paragraph 1 were
15 to be directed to the deposit accounts in the territory of the
16 municipality where the depositor is located. In terms of Prijedor, what
17 did that mean?
18 A. As far as Prijedor or any other municipality in Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina is concerned, the revenues of social and political communities
20 and various funds, in almost 100 per cent of the cases, were directly paid
21 into the republican funds. The channel used to do this was the SDK
22 through which money was channelled into the republican funds. And then
23 after that, part of that money was, according to the needs of local
24 communes or municipalities, further distributed. This decision only means
25 that the flow of money to the republican level was to be interrupted, and
Page 4570
1 that all payments were to be redirected into local accounts pursuant to
2 this decision.
3 Q. All right.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to make a check to see where
5 this document was found. That may assist.
6 Your Honours, may I ask that this document be admitted into
7 evidence, if it hasn't already been, as S136.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Observations by the Defence?
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. We do object to the
10 document based on relevancy as well as based on lack of signature by Mr.
11 Momcilo Krajisnik. Also I believe, at least my reading of the stamp
12 that's indicated on the original of the text bearing the ERN number
13 021164512 indicates that this is from the municipality of Bosanski Novi,
14 so I'm not sure how this witness -- how the OTP expects to utilize a
15 document from a different municipality than the municipality of Prijedor.
16 That's all I have at this time, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This document is tendered under Number S136,
18 after deliberation amongst the Judges, the document is not admitted into
19 evidence, and we expect the attempt of the OTP to provide a better copy.
20 And we recall at the same time the ongoing obligation of the Office of the
21 Prosecutor also as regards former and other documents in the future, to
22 provide in the courtroom the best possible copy.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, I wonder if I could ask, if Your
24 Honours are going to or have made a provisional decision to rule against
25 the OTP, whether we might be permitted to reply to an objection.
Page 4571
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I said it's provisionally tendered, and it has a
2 provisional number S136. I don't know whether you are aware what has
3 happened in this courtroom before. I'm sorry to say this, but in the
4 past, we worked in an extremely good way together and heard and
5 experienced that apparently there are better readable copies available.
6 It is only fair for all participants and also the Judges to have the best
7 possible document.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. That I understand, and we'll
9 certainly see if we can get a better copy. I did not understood Your
10 Honour to say this was only a provisional ruling.
11 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, I next want to deal with another matter. You told
12 us that you had been aware of the Crisis Staff before -- or the term
13 "Crisis Staff" before the formal announcement in Prijedor after the 30th
14 of April.
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. Were you aware of any provisions -- you say you heard it from what
17 happened in Croatia. Were you aware of any provisions in the Yugoslav
18 federal law or in the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina that dealt
19 with the idea or a similar idea of a Crisis Staff?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I'd like you for the moment to look at a document which is the 65
22 ter number 99.
23 MS. KORNER: Which I understand, Your Honour, has already been
24 admitted as S59.
25 Q. Now, this document is an excerpt from instructions on the work of
Page 4572
1 the municipal Crisis Staffs of the Serbian people dated the 26th of April,
2 1992 and signed by prime minister Branko Djeric. I say signed; I'll make
3 it absolutely clear that it's a typed signature. And I don't imagine, Mr.
4 Sejmenovic, that before you looked at this, when you were looking at
5 documents here, you had seen this document before. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes. I have seen this document as it was being drafted.
7 Q. You saw the document as it was being drafted?
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. The witness meant
9 "while I was being proofed."
10 MS. KORNER: Right. I may say, Your Honour, that would have been
11 a real turn up for the books.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This was a real Freudian, wasn't it.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes.
14 Q. What I want you to look at are the instructions that are issued
15 here and see whether they compare with what a Municipal Assembly was to
16 do. Item number 1 says: "In a state of war, the Crisis Staff shall
17 assume all prerogatives and functioning of the Municipal Assemblies when
18 they are unable to convene."
19 Can I stop there. Had you ever heard of such a body taking over
20 in a state of war, whether it was called a Crisis Staff or something else?
21 A. No, according to the existing law, in case of imminent war danger,
22 and pursuant to the constitution, there was a body called the National
23 Security Council. There was an allowance for a war presidency, but
24 certainly not for a Crisis Staff. The precise name was the National
25 Defence Council. So the body that could be formed in case of imminent
Page 4573
1 danger of war, the name of this body was the National Defence Council, and
2 this body met if there was an imminent threat of war. But the law did not
3 provide for any Crisis Staffs to be set up.
4 Q. Can we just look at Item Number 2 that says, or paragraph 2. "It
5 consists of members each of whom has his own responsibilities, the
6 president, deputy president, commander of the TO staff, president of the
7 executive committee, head of the MUP, Ministry of the Interior, and
8 members responsible for the economy, humanitarian, and medical care,
9 information, propaganda, procurement, and food supplies, refugees, war
10 crimes, damage, communications, coordination," et cetera.
11 Within the Municipal Assembly, were there persons who were
12 responsible for all of these areas of life?
13 A. Yes. There were institutions for all these functions, regular
14 institutions which, under a given set of circumstances, were supposed to
15 carry out these tasks, both in war and in peacetime.
16 Q. Then Item Number 3: "A Crisis Staff coordinates the functions of
17 authorities in order to ensure the defence of the territories, the safety
18 of the population and property, the establishment of government, and the
19 organisation of all other areas of life and work. In doing so, the Crisis
20 Staff provides the conditions for the municipal executive committee to
21 exercise legal executive authority, run the economy, and other areas of
22 life."
23 Now, again, would the Municipal Assembly, had it been meeting,
24 deal with the functions that are set out in this paragraph?
25 A. No. The Municipal Assembly is a legislative body. Executive
Page 4574
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Page 4575
1 power, the government of the municipality and the executive committee were
2 in charge of the executive power. However, Article 2 and 3 are mutually
3 exclusive here in this document. First, the Crisis Staff is set to
4 distribute power, and then in Article 3, it is obvious that there is a
5 contradiction, the way they read. The Crisis Staff, according to this
6 decision, should inherit the functions of the assembly as a legislative
7 body but should also take over the authority of executive power. And
8 should have within its scope all the different spheres of life in the
9 municipality.
10 Q. Does that mean that the Crisis Staff had greater powers, on these
11 instructions, than the Municipal Assembly would have had?
12 A. Of course. According to this decision, and these instructions,
13 the Crisis Staff represents the supreme level of power. The president of
14 the Crisis Staff is superior to all the other segments and elements of the
15 Crisis Staff, to the head of MUP, the head of the TO, the executive
16 committee. All of them are now members of the Crisis Staff, but there is
17 a president of the Crisis Staff, too, probably a vice-president. So this
18 is a hierarchy within this newly established body. This could be
19 understood as the supreme power in the municipality.
20 Q. Then we see that Item Number 4: "The command of the TO and police
21 forces is under exclusive authority of the professional staff; and
22 therefore, any interference regarding the command of the TO and/or the use
23 of the police forces must be prevented."
24 From your experience, what do you understand by the word
25 "professional staff"?
Page 4576
1 A. Professional staff means qualified staff, also military staff.
2 Persons who went to a military school and who are professionals in
3 control, command, and the carrying out of combat operations. Most of the
4 persons in the TO were nonprofessional staff. As far as TO members were
5 concerned, they were all amateurs, in a manner of speaking. As far as
6 unit commanders were concerned, those were persons who were occasionally
7 called for military drills in order to maintain a certain level of
8 ability, should war occur. The only professional staff was in the
9 Prijedor garrison, and there, you had professional military officers. All
10 the other staff could be viewed as volunteers or amateurs, or staff
11 where -- who had received occasional training only.
12 The TO was not a professional body. They were not paid for their
13 work. That was not their job, strictly speaking. As opposed to the army,
14 who were professionals and were paid for what they did.
15 Q. Then can we look at Item Number 5: "Ban the use of all artillery
16 seized in combat, or acquired by other means, which can be used to destroy
17 towns and remove it far from the confrontation line."
18 Now, can I ask you this, Mr. Sejmenovic: At this period in 1992,
19 what was the relationship between the political authorities and the
20 military authorities? You've told us already a little about how the JNA
21 was aligning itself with the SDS, but this is a decision about banning the
22 use of artillery. How would that be enforced?
23 A. As artillery is used by the army and professional army was
24 mobilised army, specifically in the 5th Kozara Brigade, that means an
25 order must come for the commanders to remove artillery, weapons from the
Page 4577
1 town. So there must be some local authority to tell Commander Zeljaja:
2 "Withdraw artillery or transfer it to a different place" so that's how it
3 reads to me and this is the only meaning it can possibly have.
4 Q. Did the army take decisions involving, for example, defence or
5 anything to do with military manoeuvres, without involvement of the
6 political authorities?
7 A. Before the war, according to law, the army had its own scope of
8 activity, its training grounds, and it carried out military exercises
9 according to their own plans and programmes. They received their orders
10 from the Supreme Command, and then from military districts. And at the
11 local level, from military centres, garrisons or corps. The army did not
12 take orders from civilian structures at a lower level. The general staff
13 was the only authority to issue orders, or the lower-ranking military
14 command structures. The only relation of the civilian authorities to the
15 army was to have the civilian organs recruit a number of soldiers at
16 regular intervals, to draw up lists and send these people to military
17 training.
18 Another duty was that if the military should express a desire to
19 carry out a more massive military exercise, it could forward this request
20 to the national defence secretary or the TO, for them to secure a certain
21 number of TO members for this drill to take place. As far as direct
22 orders concerning military directives and weapons were concerned,
23 civilians could never order anything like that.
24 Q. So they couldn't give direct orders. What was the relationship at
25 the lower level? Let's take it at the level of Prijedor, on the municipal
Page 4578
1 level, between the political and army in the period leading up to the
2 takeover, that you could see?
3 A. The impression was clear. Most of the major
4 problems -- concerning most of the major problems, they had the same
5 views. Concerning mobilisation, concerning the need to fight in Croatia,
6 concerning the holding of a referendum, the declaration of independence.
7 The army's views, and I'm speaking about the local level now, and the
8 views of the SDS were identical. Also at the republic level, they were
9 identical or nearly identical as concerns all these matters. There were
10 no major differences.
11 Commander Arsic publicly expressed his gratitude to the SDS on
12 several occasions for its understanding of the needs of the army and for
13 its having assumed the role of someone who assisted the army, because the
14 army's goal was not to protect the SDS only, but all people. So we did
15 have an opportunity to listen to these public recognitions. There were
16 never any discrepancies or disagreements between Arsic, Zeljaja, or the
17 SDS.
18 Q. Thank you. Then, if we look at the next item, it states: "The
19 work of the Crisis Staff is based on constitutional and legal provisions
20 and on decisions reached by the assembly, presidency, and government of
21 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
22 "Seven, Crisis Staff shall convene a meeting of the Municipal
23 Assembly as soon as circumstances permit to have its work, conclusions,
24 and decisions verified.
25 "Eight, the Crisis Staff has the obligation to provide working and
Page 4579
1 living conditions for the JNA to ensure a fair attitude towards the JNA
2 officers and soldiers, and prevent them from being humiliated or
3 insulted in any way. As far as the attitude towards army property is
4 concerned, it must be based on the obligatory consultations with the
5 government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 "Nine, the Crisis Staff shall provide--
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. May I interrupt you. You should be
8 aware that this document was read out in the courtroom in total before,
9 and I'm sure the witness having the document before himself is able to
10 read. We do not need to repeat.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'd be grateful to any indications. I
12 was following Your Honours' instruction that the whole should be read out
13 in full.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was read out on the 10th of June at 16.04,
15 page 8, line 4 of the transcript.
16 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
17 Q. Yes, finally this, then: Can I just ask you about the last
18 paragraph, which is number 14. If I can just read that: "The Crisis
19 Staff shall convene and make decisions in the presence of all its
20 members," et cetera, and "submit weekly reports to the regional and state
21 organisations of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
22 Can I just ask you this: Was the assembly, the Municipal
23 Assembly, obliged to send weekly reports to the republican assembly, the
24 republic level assembly?
25 A. No, never. There were institutions which had their superior
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Page 4581
1 bodies at the level of the republic. And in accordance with the relevant
2 regulations, they sent their reports. And it is possible that the police
3 also sent their reports, financial institutions submitted theirs. But the
4 assembly never submitted any reports to anyone. Sometimes, the situation
5 in the assembly was reported by the deputies at the republican assembly.
6 But as far as the institutions are concerned, the local-level
7 institutions, they had their superiors at the level of the republic.
8 Here, we have the Crisis Staff and the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina in Sarajevo, and also the war presidency in Prijedor, that is
10 the Crisis Staff in Prijedor, or in any other municipality where such a
11 Crisis Staff was established. Because the same pattern was followed in
12 all of these municipalities.
13 Q. Yes. Thank you very much.
14 MS. KORNER: You can take that document away now.
15 Q. Now, you were describing yesterday the takeover and what happened.
16 I want you please now to look at a document, Rule 65 ter Number 104. This
17 is a document apparently from the Prijedor public security station dated
18 the 30th of April, 1992, being sent to the Banja Luka CSB. This appears,
19 if one looks at the copy, to be signed by Simo Drljaca. Now, before the
20 30th of April, had you come across Simo Drljaca?
21 A. I only saw him several times. I knew him by sight. I did not
22 have any direct contact with him by virtue of my function. I did contact
23 with Mr. Talundzic, who was the police chief, but I did not have any such
24 contact with Mr. Simo Drljaca. But I did know him. I saw him several
25 times.
Page 4582
1 Q. Before the 30th of April, was he actually the chief of the public
2 security service?
3 A. I believe he was.
4 Q. Now, this is a description, apparently, of the takeover, and I
5 just want to see if it accords to what you saw happening.
6 "In reference to your dispatch of the above number and date, we
7 hereby notify you of the following: That of ten police stations with
8 numbering 1587 members were mobilised, all callups were responded to, and
9 there was no avoidance of work obligations. At 0400 hours, in keeping
10 with the conclusions reached by the executive committee of the Serbian
11 assembly of the Prijedor Municipality, power was taken over in the
12 territory of the municipality when possession was taken of all public
13 security stations and other strategic points. These activities were
14 carried out in a synchronised action and not a single bullet was fired.
15 The normal work and functioning of the service was ensured by organising
16 security guards and patrols. Economic and noneconomic organisations are
17 operating normally, and we should inform you in due time about our future
18 activities."
19 First of all, I don't imagine you can deal with the number of
20 police that were mobilised, but would you agree with the assessment that
21 these activities were carried out in synchronised action and not a single
22 bullet was fired?
23 A. I would. And I believe that I have explained what I had seen in
24 my testimony yesterday. It was perfectly clear that without adequate
25 preparations, it was not possible to deploy such a large number of people
Page 4583
1 within only eight hours. The number of people that I saw on my way to
2 work, as I travelled from my home to the municipal building and the party
3 headquarters, nor was it possible to ensure a sufficient number of
4 sandbags, messengers, duty officers at every important point, in every
5 important location in the town. So there must have been very serious and
6 long-term preparations that had taken place before that. In particular,
7 because of the fact that the majority of the people manning the
8 checkpoints were recognised by the locals, by the people with whom they
9 had socialised a few days before that. So there must have been also some
10 kind of psychological preparation for that. That could not have taken
11 place overnight. Dozens of armed soldiers were deployed in the centre of
12 the town only. I don't know how many there were in the overall
13 municipality, so it is quite possible that the number was even larger. I
14 cannot confirm or deny this number, 1587. I know that there were quite a
15 few of them in the town itself.
16 Q. And just two other matters on this document. It says: "The
17 normal work and functioning of the service was ensured by organising
18 security guards and patrols." I think you've told us about the sandbags
19 and those, but were buildings being guarded by security guards, looked
20 after?
21 A. Yes. They guarded the PTT building, the banks, the SDK, the main
22 junctions in the town, the railway station, the bus station, production
23 plans, bridges, all important locations and major intersections in the
24 town were manned by soldiers with weapons. And some of these location
25 were further secured with sandbags, and some even had snipers there.
Page 4584
1 Q. Yes. Thank you.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I don't know if this has been admitted.
3 If not, may it be admitted -- it has been admitted.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 137.
5 MS. KORNER: Sorry, as S137.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. Our only objection is limited to
8 the signature. The witness clearly testified he only saw Mr. Drljaca on a
9 number of occasions. He hasn't verified his signature. It's unclear to
10 us. So, just based on that we think they laid the improper foundation and
11 have not identified the signature as being properly that of the individual
12 it purports to be.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for the comments. Nevertheless, in
14 this case, the document, the copy, is readable, but I take the opportunity
15 to remind the OTP on the ongoing obligation to present the original if
16 possible, or the best readable copy for the parties. It really
17 facilitates, as we have seen on the occasion of another example, our work
18 here. This document under 65 ter, having the number 104, is admitted into
19 evidence as S137A and B.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just ask on that matter, I was
21 aware of Your Honours' request for originals. Does Your Honour want
22 originals for every document, or just documents that are not as legible as
23 others?
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the documents admitted into evidence,
25 especially those documents where the signature is contested or, also for
Page 4585
1 us, difficult to recognise. And as I mentioned just before, on the last
2 occasion when we got another document, it is easier for all the
3 participants to work on this basis. I have no doubt at all that from your
4 experience, you would hardly work on the basis of such copies. You would
5 always use originals. It's only due to the special problems inside this
6 Tribunal that we have first of all to work with copies. But when a
7 document is contested, and especially when it comes to the question
8 whether there is a signature, is it the correct signature, and then to
9 decide whether we need, for example, expert witness on a signature, then
10 indeed it is necessary that at least the document is once provided and
11 make accessible for the parties and the Judges, it's a better basis for
12 our evaluation of evidence.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'll leave it for Monday's session, if I
14 may, for Mr. Koumjian to deal with, because there are a number of problems
15 because of the nature of this institution in giving the Court originals to
16 keep, if you see what I mean.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We don't want to keep them. It is only to be
18 for one inspection in the courtroom.
19 MS. KORNER: Certainly. Thank you very much, Your Honour.
20 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, can I now move to -- you've described the
21 takeover -- you've described the lockout from the municipal building.
22 Between then and, and as we're going to hear about, the attacks at the end
23 of May, what did you do?
24 A. Between that day and the attack at the end of May, I stayed mainly
25 in the area of Kozarac and Trnopolje. I never went back to Prijedor
Page 4586
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Page 4587
1 except on one occasion -- no, actually I visited Prijedor on two occasions
2 during that period of time. We could no longer work at the party, at the
3 party headquarters at least. Political work was banned, generally
4 speaking, and our people were denied access to the municipal building and
5 other public institutions. Ever from that first day when the officials
6 and public servants in general were denied access to the municipal
7 building, a number of dismissals followed. Very soon, local transport
8 companies stopped driving to Prijedor -- to Kozarac, I'm sorry, and
9 Trnopolje. So except for the area of Prijedor and perhaps the area of
10 Omarska, other areas were being neglected. Shortly after the takeover,
11 students stopped going to schools in Prijedor, stopped going to schools to
12 Prijedor. And we were left on our own in Kozarac and Trnopolje.
13 Q. Now, did you hear about an order being issued for mobilisation in
14 the territory of what was then called the Autonomous Region of Krajina?
15 A. Yes, we did. It took place at the beginning of May, I think,
16 1992. They issued an announcement which was broadcast over the radio and
17 TV. It was a general mobilisation. They started mobilising the entire
18 population, the entire Serb population in Prijedor itself and in the
19 surrounding municipalities.
20 Q. I would like you, please, if you would to look at document bearing
21 the 65 ter number 116.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Which provisionally is, for the record, S138.
23 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. This is a dispatch from the Security Services Centre in Banja
25 Luka, dated the 4th of May, addressed to the chief all public security
Page 4588
1 stations. And it is not a signed document in the original, we see.
2 And this states: "We have received a dispatch from the government
3 of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina in Banja Luka which we hereby
4 forward to you in full." It comes from the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina, regional secretariat
6 for national Defence, dated the 4th of May. And then says: "In
7 accordance with the decision of the ministry of national defence of the
8 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, dated the 16th of April, with
9 regard to the situation on the territory, with the aim of defending and
10 protecting people and property, and preserving peace in the area, the
11 government of the Autonomous Region of Krajina has made the following
12 decision:
13 "One, full and public mobilisation on the entire territory of the
14 Autonomous Region of Krajina is hereby ordered.
15 "Two, all military conscripts from the Autonomous Region of
16 Krajina are to make themselves available immediately to the municipal
17 Territorial Defence staffs, which shall, according to their evaluation and
18 plans, be responsible for the mobilisation, formation, and deployment of
19 units.
20 "Three, all authorities in social communities, businesses, and
21 other institutions shall immediately commence work according to wartime
22 organisation.
23 "Four, a curfew is to be introduced on the entire territory
24 between 2200 and 0500 hours except for members of the police, the military
25 police, and the Serbian Territorial Defence.
Page 4589
1 "Five, all paramilitary formations and individuals in possession
2 of illegal weapons and ammunition are hereby called upon immediately, and
3 at the latest, by 1500 hours on the 11th of May, 1992, to hand over their
4 weapons to municipal Territorial Defence staffs or the nearest public
5 security station. Upon expiry of this deadline, the relevant authorities
6 shall conduct searches and seize weapons and ammunition and apply the most
7 rigorous sanctions.
8 "Explanations" --
9 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour wish this to be read out? It's
10 just a description of.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's up to you, what you want to introduce
12 during examination-in-chief.
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
14 Q. I'll leave that part, then. We see that that was apparently an
15 order or decision issued by the secretary of the regional secretariat for
16 national defence, Lieutenant-Colonel Milorad Sajic. And then added: "With
17 regard to the above-mentioned, it is necessary that you immediately and
18 without delay undertake the necessary activities described in the above
19 decision and report to us about this as well as about all events of
20 interest for the security situation in the course of tomorrow. As regards
21 the curfew, tolerance should be practiced tonight, but tomorrow the
22 necessary permit should be sought during the designated time period. And
23 chiefs of the public security stations are personally responsible for the
24 implementation of this decision."
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I just want to check, looking at the
Page 4590
1 original, yes, there was handwriting on the original dated the 11th of
2 May. And Your Honour, I'm --
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you say there was --
4 MS. KORNER: On the top of the first page.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay --
6 MS. KORNER: Not at the bottom of the --
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: There should be no conclusion.
8 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. Your Honour, I'm told this does come
9 from -- this was found at the Prijedor police station.
10 Q. Now first, Mr. Sejmenovic, you told us you remember the
11 mobilisation being announced. Did a -- first of all, did any non-Serbs
12 report for duty as a result of this order, to your knowledge, obviously?
13 A. No. I think I've already explained the context in which this date
14 can be placed. We were already isolated in that area. So any kind of
15 travel implied a major risk. There were people who had attempted to
16 travel but were robbed on the way and then came back. Interrogations had
17 already started. And when -- if we wanted to try to contact the SDS, we
18 had to ask for guarantees that the police would let us pass through the
19 checkpoints on the way to Prijedor. When this announcement was made, it
20 was actually addressed to the Serb population of the area.
21 Q. I'm going to deal with travel in a moment, because there's another
22 document I want you to look at. The curfew that was mentioned in
23 paragraph 4, did that take effect?
24 A. Yes, it did.
25 Q. And how was the curfew enforced?
Page 4591
1 A. I was not in Prijedor or Banja Luka at the time. I mean, I didn't
2 go to Prijedor or Banja Luka in the evening hours. But I know about the
3 curfew because there were very often announcements made on the radio or on
4 TV to the effect that the movement was restricted. But I personally
5 couldn't see it for myself. As far as my area is concerned, the area
6 where we were, every day was a curfew because after nightfall, people were
7 afraid to leave their homes. Shooting could occur at any moment.
8 Formally speaking, we had our Territorial Defence. We tried to organise
9 it as soon as possible, at least in order to avert an attack. And that
10 was -- that was the situation in which we found ourselves at the time.
11 Q. I'm going to come on to the organisation of the Territorial
12 Defence a little later. And I think -- yes -- I want to deal with the
13 order in respect of the disarmament after we've looked at another
14 document.
15 A. Excuse me. In connection with checking identification documents,
16 the first day after the takeover, I was IDed on several occasions in the
17 town itself. Practically every 150 metres, there were checkpoints and I
18 was IDed. A couple of days later, we agreed on a meeting with the SDS,
19 and they knew we were coming for a meeting. And yet, we were IDed several
20 times. So that was part of observing these regulations on controlled
21 movement.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour said provisionally admitted.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have the custom, immediately, in order not to
24 confuse, when a document is tendered, to give a provisional number, and
25 then later to decide on the admission into evidence.
Page 4592
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Page 4593
1 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So may I ask the Defence, objections?
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. We do have an objection. Also,
4 in addition to the lack of signatures that do not appear on the document
5 by either of the two individuals, we also object as to relevance.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Following the policy laid down in our guidelines
7 in the beginning of this case and taking into account, of course, all the
8 reservations emanating from the fact that there is no stamp and no
9 signature, it is admitted into evidence as S138A and B.
10 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Now, in connection with this question of travel that you
12 mentioned, Mr. Sejmenovic, I'd like you to look, please, at another
13 document, which is marked, at the moment, as 65 ter number 144.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Which will be then provisionally S139.
15 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
16 Q. Now, this document, can we just look at the back of it, has a
17 signature, it would appear, and a stamp. And it comes from the Crisis
18 Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and it's dated the 11th of May,
19 addressed to the president of the council for people's defence. "Subject:
20 Announcing instructions. Notice on issuing travel permits.
21 "One, all conscripts travelling outside the Autonomous Region of
22 Krajina must have permission to travel. The permit is issued by the
23 competent municipal secretariat for people's defence.
24 "Two, permits may be issued to citizens who work abroad if they
25 have a work visa, bring a photocopy of the work visa. Persons who are
Page 4594
1 going for treatment, relevant documents, discharge papers from the
2 hospital and referral for treatment outside the Autonomous Region of
3 Krajina. Those with a work obligation travelling on work-related business
4 [Relevant documents]."
5 And then it states: "Notice on the implementation of the work
6 obligation. On switching to work in a war organisation regime in
7 companies and other organisations and communities, the following may work
8 after submitting the appropriate documents: Those with a work obligation;
9 conscripts who have received callup papers to their war units for one of
10 the dates on presenting the papers; conscripts assigned to the Territorial
11 Defence, if they have not been called to their units with confirmation
12 from the municipal Territorial Defence staff that they are not currently
13 engaged by the TO; members whose war posting is in the civil defence units
14 of the local communes or the municipal units of civil defence" et cetera,
15 et cetera. "Five, conscripts who have been declared unfit for service in
16 the armed forces, with a permit issued by the municipal secretariat for
17 people's defence; women workers with no war assignments, with a permit
18 issued by the local communes." And then: "Information on taking over the
19 duties of military obligation and mobilisation, pursuant to the conclusion
20 of the Crisis Staff the Autonomous Region of Krajina. Dated the 11th of
21 May, 1992. The municipal secretariats for national defence must
22 immediately take over all duties related to military obligation and
23 mobilisation from the military and territory organs of the JNA."
24 Now, this document, dealing with the issuing of travel permits,
25 seems to deal with people working abroad, those going for treatment, and
Page 4595
1 those with a work obligation. What happened to people who did not fall
2 into any of those three categories?
3 A. If they tried to travel during this period, they would be returned
4 back to Prijedor. Under accusations that Muslims were preparing for a war
5 against Serbs so they were trying to send their families somewhere safe in
6 order to be able to fight the Serb army. So in order to prevent this from
7 happening, they forbade all travel. This was even in mid-May 1992, but
8 quite certainly in the second half of May 1992.
9 After that, there was no way to leave except when emigration
10 agencies were set up through which you could obtain the necessary
11 documents and pay certain sums of money in order to be permitted to leave
12 the area. Very often, you had to leave behind a document to the effect
13 that you were giving your property to the local authorities or the
14 autonomous region, and that you were leaving the area of your own free
15 will. So some people had to leave a statement like that in order to get
16 permit to leave.
17 Q. Was that already -- had that started already in May of 1992? In
18 other words, that you had to undertake that you were leaving your property
19 to the local authorities or the autonomous region?
20 A. I think this began as early as May 1992.
21 Q. Work obligation, we saw in the earlier document that companies and
22 organisations were to change to a war organisation regime. Those who
23 were -- who had a work obligation, was that people of all ethnicities?
24 A. In peacetime, yes, according to laws before the war, most people
25 in their companies had their own -- got to keep their own place in wartime
Page 4596
1 because then the economy must adapt to the needs of war. So in socialism,
2 that's how it was organised. There were plans for the functioning of
3 important companies and enterprises under war circumstances. And
4 important professionals and important positions were organised according
5 to the same principle.
6 As far as this new situation is concerned, in the Autonomous
7 Region of Krajina, the non-Serbian population was not under work
8 obligation, except later on when they were captured, they received
9 documents concerning their work obligation, so they had to take up their
10 duties.
11 Q. You say "when they were captured" you mean at a later period?
12 A. Yes. That was at a later stage. Some did have a work obligation,
13 that is, after they had been captured and they were assigned their work
14 obligation, but not at this time.
15 Q. And by "captured," what do you mean? I'm sorry, it was my error.
16 A. When the attack on Prijedor took place, and the attack on Kozarac,
17 and once the military operations were through, several thousands of
18 non-Serbs were taken to concentration camps. There were people in the
19 camps who were assigned to certain posts, and they were told: "Now, you
20 have work obligations." The army would then take them away to work, and
21 then return them to the camp. So some of those people had work
22 obligations, and maybe they could be treated according to these
23 regulations. But this period followed military operations.
24 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'd ask then that this be admitted.
Page 4597
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. We do. We object on the basis
3 that OTP through this witness has failed to lay the proper foundation for
4 the admittance of this document into evidence, and they have also failed
5 and have the lack of identification of the signature on this document.
6 And quite frankly, we think that it's irrelevant and can see, at least in
7 part, respectfully that the OTP is trying to utilize documents that are
8 perhaps relevant in another case, namely the Brdjanin/Talic case, which
9 does not incorporate the issues and facts as outlined against this
10 accused. There has been no nexus to show that this document was ever sent
11 to Dr. Stakic or received by Dr. Stakic, and this is just an attempt to
12 (a) broaden the allegations in the indictment against Dr. Stakic, but also
13 to utilize evidence which apparently is not available to support any of
14 the allegations in the indictment against Dr. Stakic. So by using
15 documents in another region and a Crisis Staff of Banja Luka, we think
16 that it's highly irrelevant as it relates to Dr. Stakic and this matter.
17 So on those grounds, we object to the document, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Observations in response?
19 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, in order to do, that I have to go
20 back to the indictment, but Your Honour would prefer I didn't outside
21 the --
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not in the presence of the witness. We decide
23 on this issue after the break. Please continue for another five minutes
24 if you so want.
25 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry?
Page 4598
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Page 4599
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you want to have the break now, we can do it.
2 Otherwise, we could continue another five minutes.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to move to another document
4 dealing with disarmament, so it may be that I can't complete that in five
5 minutes.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the trial stands adjourned until 10.55.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. First of all, I have to
10 announce Judges have revised their former decision. To that end, that on
11 Monday, we will start with the necessary and already announced
12 administrative matters for the first one and a half hours. And this is,
13 first of all, with all respect due to the kind permission of the Defence
14 counsel. But it's an absolute deadline after the break, we have to
15 continue with this witness.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm very grateful.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You agree.
18 MS. KORNER: No, no, I want to object and change it again
19 actually.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So to continue, we finally had to decide whether
21 or not to admit into evidence the former Document 144. Indeed, with
22 numerous reservations and reluctance and taking into account, of course,
23 it makes much sense that we have the objections on the transcript
24 cautioning the Bench always, it is admitted into evidence as S139A and B.
25 But discussing this issue, the Judges are of the opinion once again to
Page 4600
1 recall that we have a witness before us, and not an expert witness. And
2 we were extremely close to this threshold, to this distinction this
3 morning. And as we all know, other rules would be applicable when the
4 witness would act as an expert witness. Therefore, please take into
5 account the witness has to be treated as such a witness, and not under the
6 other rule. Thank you.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm attempting -- and of course, I know
8 Your Honours will stop me if you think that I'm going over the line -- to
9 only ask the witness about matters he can deal with through his experience
10 of his background in the assemblies.
11 I was about to come to the question of the surrender of
12 illegally -- of weapons which we looked at in one of the earlier
13 documents. But I wonder if the witness could now be handed the document
14 with the 65 ter number 146. And again, this document is one that comes
15 from the Autonomous Region of Krajina. It's a decision. And I make it
16 absolutely clear that I'm showing it to the witness to ask him about his
17 personal experience of how this order was put into operation.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Already now I would once again to recall our
19 request to provide us with a possible original -- if possible, with the
20 original; if not, with the best readable copy because apparently here are
21 some problems to identify who is the author of what handwriting in this
22 B/C/S version.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. We're making a note as we go
24 along, and we'll take the -- get the originals.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
Page 4601
1 MS. KORNER:
2 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, this is entitled or headed "from the Autonomous
3 Region of Krajina Crisis Staff, Banja Luka." And the date is the 11th of
4 May. And handwritten, I think, is: "To the President of the municipality
5 personally." And it says: "At the meeting held on the 11th of May, 1992,
6 the Crisis Staff o the Autonomous Region of Krajina reached the following
7 conclusions:
8 "One, the deadline for the surrender of the illegally acquired
9 weapons is hereby extended to 2400 hours on the 14th of May, 1992. The
10 deadline that expired today has been extended at the request of citizens
11 of all nationalities because of the wish to return the weapons in a
12 peaceful way and without the intervention of the police. After expiry of
13 the deadline, the weapons will be seized by employees of the Security
14 Services Centre of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and the most severe
15 sanctions shall be taken against those that disobey the proclamation of
16 the Crisis Staff."
17 And then: "Classes in all elementary and secondary schools must
18 finish by the 20th of May. The organs of the Yugoslav People's Army must
19 immediately return all records to the authorised municipal secretariats
20 for national defence. That we hereby express our support for the work of
21 the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. All war plans and
22 Krajina enterprises must be analysed and approved by the council for
23 national defence of the municipality or rather the Crisis Staff of the
24 Autonomous Region of Krajina, only persons who are absolutely loyal to the
25 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina can be placed in management
Page 4602
1 positions in enterprises. All male persons fit for war between 18 and 55
2 years old who have fled from the territory of the autonomous region must
3 immediately return to their municipalities and help their fellow citizens
4 in the struggle against the enemy."
5 And then this: "All persons who fail to respond to the above
6 calls shall be forbidden to return to their homes in the territory of the
7 Autonomous Region of Krajina, and all their movable and immovable property
8 shall be confiscated."
9 And there is a stamp on the original and a signature. And it's
10 stated to be Radislav Brdjanin.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the record, only this goes provisional under
12 S140.
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, I want to deal with the various things that are
15 mentioned here in this document. The surrender of what is described as
16 "illegally acquired weapons," when did you first become aware of an order
17 to surrender weapons?
18 A. We found out about this in the second half of May of 1992 at the
19 last interparty meeting. We pleaded with the SDS on several occasions to
20 have a meeting and try to figure out a solution. And after a number of
21 refusals, the SDS finally agreed. So a meeting was held in Prijedor at
22 the beginning of the second half of May. We were given an ultimatum at
23 that meeting, a very short deadline to return weapons in much larger
24 quantities than there could have been. The ultimatum was worded in such a
25 way that it was impossible to observe it. We were requested to return
Page 4603
1 several thousands of pieces within a week, or otherwise Kozarac was to be
2 razed to the ground. And I'm here quoting Major Zeljaja, and this was
3 confirmed by Colonel Arsic at the meeting.
4 It was a meeting with the SDS, but Arsic and Zeljaja had the main
5 say in the meeting.
6 Q. All right. I think we better deal -- I was going to come to the
7 meeting a little bit later, but let's deal with that in full at this
8 stage, then. This meeting took place, you've told us, in about the second
9 half of May.
10 A. As far as I can remember, yes, around the second half of May.
11 Q. And who had asked for the meeting?
12 A. The SDA did.
13 Q. And it was a meeting asked to be held with whom?
14 A. With the SDS.
15 Q. Okay. Where did -- I'm sorry. Had there been earlier requests
16 for a meeting? I'm sorry. I'll rephrase that question. Did you make
17 more than one request for a meeting before it was held?
18 A. Yes, almost on a daily basis. From all party levels. In the town
19 of Prijedor and the municipal level of the party, and also at lower, local
20 levels, certain members of the executive committee of the SDA tried to
21 make contact with the leaders or members of the SDS leadership in order to
22 agree to have a meeting to discuss these issues and to explain that they
23 had no reason for fear whatsoever.
24 Q. Now, the meeting that was held, where was it held?
25 A. The meeting was held in the SDS premises in Prijedor.
Page 4604
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Page 4605
1 Q. And did you have any difficulty, and the other members of your
2 party, in getting to the SDS premises?
3 A. Yes, we did have a number of difficulties. Mr. Simo Miskovic, who
4 was the president of the SDS, guaranteed that we could reach Prijedor
5 safely, that we would not be stopped by the army or the police manning the
6 checkpoints, and that we were free to come to the SDS party building. As
7 the premises of the SDS and the SDA were very close to one another, first
8 we went to the SDA building, that is, our party's building, to prepare for
9 this meeting. We tried to enter the premises, but the key to the entrance
10 had been changed. So as we couldn't enter, we just continued on towards
11 the SDS building.
12 Outside the entrance to the SDS building, policemen approached us
13 and IDed all the persons who were forming this delegation. They asked us
14 what we were there for. Professor Music explained that a meeting with
15 Mr. Miskovic had been agreed. After several minutes Mr. Miskovic came out
16 and told them to let us through.
17 Q. All right. Can I ask you, how many people from your side
18 attended?
19 A. As far as I can remember, there was Becir Medunjanin, Mustafa
20 Tadic, Mr. Islam Bahonjic, Mr. Meho Tursic, Mr. Ilijaz Music and myself.
21 I don't think there was anyone else, if memory serves me well. The people
22 I have named were there for sure. I am certain of that.
23 Q. When you got inside the SDS offices, who was there from the SDS
24 for you to speak to?
25 A. The SDS members I knew, there was the president, Simo Miskovic,
Page 4606
1 Dusan Kurnoga, Slobodan Kuruzovic, a woman, and possibly another man I did
2 not know well.
3 Q. Now, you mentioned, when you were talking about disarmament,
4 conversations with the military, that is Zeljaja and Arsic. Were the
5 military there when you first arrived?
6 A. When we first arrived in their offices, there were no military
7 there. We wanted to start the meeting, but Miskovic refused. He said
8 that we should wait for the arrival of Colonel Arsic and Major Zeljaja.
9 When we said that we wanted to talk to the SDS members, they said that
10 they were not able -- that they could not discuss these issues in the
11 absence of Arsic and Zeljaja. That's why we waited for the two officers
12 to arrive.
13 Q. You said they said they could not discuss the issues in the
14 absence of Arsic and Zeljaja. Had you made it clear in advance what
15 issues you wanted to discuss?
16 A. I think that our contact person for these negotiations was
17 Mr. Becir Medunjanin. He was the one who conveyed to us what had been
18 discussed on a previous occasion. He told us that he had managed to ask
19 Simo Miskovic to have a meeting, and that Miskovic agreed that we should
20 discuss the overall situation and that we should attempt to find a
21 solution in order to avoid conflict, so that the people could go on living
22 normally and so that the town of Kozarac could be deblocked, so to speak,
23 so that the people could return to work and the children to school. One
24 objective was also to find an agreement concerning the TO in Kozarac.
25 Q. All right. Can we deal with those aspects that you just
Page 4607
1 mentioned. You say so that the town of Kozarac could be deblocked. What
2 had been happened in Kozarac in the intervening period since the takeover?
3 A. After the takeover, perhaps three or four days later, vehicles
4 could no longer travel from Kozarac to Banja Luka. They were returned
5 before they entered the village of Omarska. After the village of
6 Jakupovici, no passage was possible. Several vehicles had been seized and
7 people were returned. Likewise, it was impossible to travel by bus. The
8 bus line from Prijedor to Kozarac was no longer functional. There were
9 people who wanted to go to Prijedor to see their relatives, but they, too,
10 were denied passage at the checkpoint -- at the military checkpoint in or
11 Orlovaca. Electricity was cut for the town of Kozarac. Later on, the
12 telephone lines were also down, with the exception of just several
13 telephone lines which were still operational. So we were completely
14 isolated. And one of the issues on the agenda was the problem of freedom
15 of movement, so that people could finally travel from Kozarac to Prijedor.
16 Q. And why was it that Kozarac had been singled out for this
17 blockade?
18 A. Kozarac, at the time, was almost hundred per cent non-Serb. The
19 Serbian Crisis Staff did not have authority in Kozarac. The Crisis Staff
20 there still functioned in accordance with the BH laws. They had their
21 headquarters there, their premises, there was a territorial organisation
22 there which also functioned in accordance with the previous laws, and it
23 had not been yet integrated into the system of the Autonomous Region of
24 Krajina.
25 Q. You said that the Crisis Staff there, had there been a Crisis
Page 4608
1 Staff set up in Kozarac, made up of citizens from Kozarac?
2 A. Not to my knowledge during the relevant times. I don't know that
3 there was a Crisis Staff there. There was the Territorial Defence, and
4 attempt were being made to organise the population within the existing
5 institutions in Kozarac.
6 Q. Yes. It may have been the way it came out. But you said that the
7 Crisis Staff there, in Kozarac, still functioned in accordance with the BH
8 laws according to the translation that we got. If Kozarac was cut off,
9 who was in charge in Kozarac?
10 A. There may have been a misunderstanding or misinterpretation. We,
11 in Kozarac, still lived in the territory which functioned in accordance
12 with the previous laws, that is, the laws existing prior to the takeover
13 in Prijedor. We in Kozarac did not accept the Serbian Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina. We did not accept the Serb police with their insignia. We
15 had our own organs and bodies which still existed, such as the local
16 commune, and they constituted the local government. There was the
17 Territorial Defence and the local police in Kozarac. These were the
18 structures of government that existed at that time. The Crisis Staff in
19 Prijedor had isolated the area, because they did not have authority in the
20 area of Kozarac. That is what I meant.
21 Q. Now, you said that the other problem that you wanted to discuss
22 with the SDS was the TO within Kozarac. What was the problem there?
23 A. First of all, the SDS did not refer to the TO Kozarac as such.
24 They didn't call it that way. When they talked about the TO in Kozarac,
25 Miskovic, Zeljaja, and Arsic spoke about the Green Berets. And by that,
Page 4609
1 they meant the police and the Territorial Defence in Kozarac. And they
2 referred to these as "paramilitary formations".
3 Q. And was that -- had they been referring to the TO in Kozarac and
4 the police in such terms before you had the meeting?
5 A. Yes, as part of their propaganda.
6 Q. All right. So let's come back to the meeting itself. You say
7 that Miskovic refused to start without the military being there. Did the
8 officers Arsic and Zeljaja arrive?
9 A. Arsic, Zeljaja, and two other officers arrived, four all together.
10 Q. Did you know who those two other officers were?
11 A. No, I had never seen them before. One spoke in the Ekavian
12 dialect, which meant that he was not from Prijedor but from Serbia proper.
13 And he was the chief of security; at least that's how he was introduced by
14 Colonel Arsic, chief of security service or intelligence service.
15 Q. For which area, which corps, did Arsic say?
16 A. No. Arsic just said: "This is my security man." He said that he
17 was the officer in charge of security. He also said that he knew exactly
18 how many pieces of weapons we had.
19 Q. And what was the security officer, did you see what rank he was or
20 were you told what rank he was?
21 A. I don't remember seeing a rank, but it is possible that he was a
22 major. I don't remember very well, but it is possible that Arsic referred
23 to him as his "major," major in charge of security. But I'm not sure.
24 Q. And the other officer, was he introduced in any particular way?
25 A. The other officer was not introduced. He never said a word. It
Page 4610
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Page 4611
1 is possible that he took the floor at one point in time, but it was of no
2 importance and that is why I didn't remember him. He kept silent most of
3 the time.
4 Q. All right. So what was actually discussed at this meeting?
5 A. Arsic and Zeljaja spoke most of the time. Miskovic spoke little.
6 As far as we, the SDA, are concerned, several of us took the floor. We
7 tried to explain to them in various ways that there was no need for them,
8 Zeljaja and Miskovic, to treat us that way, that we could assure them that
9 no Serb house or Serb resident would ever come under any threat and that
10 if they so wished, that we were prepared to establish joint patrols or
11 joint units in whatever area they choose. But all this was to no avail.
12 Q. So how did Arsic -- you've already mentioned the threat in
13 relation to Kozarac. But how did Arsic and Zeljaja respond?
14 A. They said that they wanted to disarm the Green Berets, that they
15 wanted all of the weapons to be surrendered. They mentioned certain
16 figures in respect of individual areas of Prijedor where non-Serb
17 population lived. They spoke in thousands, several thousands here,
18 several thousands there. I think that as far as Kozarac is concerned,
19 they mentioned the number of several thousand pieces of weapons. But it
20 all came down to them saying that there could be no talks or negotiations
21 any more, that we had several days to return these several thousands of
22 pieces of weapons; otherwise that they would raze Kozarac to the ground.
23 Mr. Medunjanin tried to reason with them, and he said that it was
24 senseless to -- for them to make such requirements, that Zeljaja and
25 Miskovic knew perfectly well that the population there had very little
Page 4612
1 weapons. But they insisted on these several thousands of weapons and said
2 that if these were not returned within several days, then they would
3 attack Kozarac. They also required for the Serbian flag to be hoisted in
4 the town of Kozarac. But the main condition of the ultimatum was to
5 return this quantity of weapons that they requested. If their requests
6 are not complied with, they said that Kozarac would be razed to the
7 ground. They added that they had the strongest corps in the area, that
8 they had aircraft, that they had missiles, and they said things to the
9 effect: "Do you know, are you aware of what you're playing with?"
10 What they were perfectly clear about was the fact that they were
11 not prepared to acknowledge any return of small quantities of weapons,
12 because they insisted on their knowledge about the exact number of the
13 pieces of weapons that they allegedly had, that the population allegedly
14 had. The message was perfectly clear to us. It was obvious that they
15 were hell-bent on doing what they had planned to do, regardless of what
16 they do.
17 Q. Two things: You say that they mentioned the corps was one of the
18 strongest. Which corps was that?
19 A. The Banja Luka corps.
20 Q. And second, you told us what Arsic was saying. Did Miskovic say
21 anything? I'm sorry, can I repeat that question. You told us that they
22 mentioned that the flag flying over Kozarac, the army. Did Miskovic say
23 anything in relation to what flag was going to fly over Kozarac?
24 A. Miskovic said that the weapons should be returned unconditionally,
25 these several thousands of pieces of weapons. After that, we were
Page 4613
1 supposed to fly a Serb flag over Kozarac and have a Serb police
2 established there because they said that they could no longer hold back
3 their extremists. Those were Miskovic's words.
4 Q. And the threat to raze Kozarac to the ground, was that said once
5 by them or more than once?
6 A. More than once.
7 Q. During that meeting, before it ended, did you have an opportunity
8 to see any documents?
9 A. What documents do you have in mind?
10 Q. Did you -- was any document handed to anybody at that meeting
11 which you then had an opportunity to see?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How did the meeting end?
14 A. The meeting ended with the ultimatum being reiterated. At the end
15 of the meeting, Mr. Medunjanin tried once again to reason with them. He
16 said that they had fewer weapons than they mentioned, and he said: "If
17 these weapons, if what we have is returned, what would happen?" And as
18 we -- on the way back, we discussed the possibility of purchasing several
19 thousand rifles. If we had had the means to do it, we would have done it
20 in order to comply with their requests. But people attending this meeting
21 were intelligent enough to realise that their requests were intentionally
22 impossible to meet. The only thing that was perhaps possible to do was to
23 hoist a Serbian flag over Kozarac and to let the Serbian police enter
24 Kozarac. But there was the first condition, the surrender of weapons,
25 which we were not able to fulfill. So Medunjanin said at the end of the
Page 4614
1 meeting: "We will convey to the population your requests and the results
2 of this meeting, and we will let them decide what to do."
3 Q. Now, during -- this is the final thing I want to ask about the
4 meeting. During the course of that meeting, was anything brought in for
5 Miskovic?
6 A. There was a detail which I mentioned in a previous testimony. A
7 fax had arrived from Belgrade. I managed to see it because I got up to
8 fetch a glass of water. And my former school colleague, Mr. Dusan
9 Kurnoga, told me where to get the glass of water. And it was at that
10 moment that the fax arrived. The lady who worked there showed this fax to
11 Miskovic, and what I was able to see from, perhaps, 1 metre distance, I
12 could tell that it was a list of medicines. He said that she should
13 respond by saying that they needed more medicines. He crossed out some of
14 the items and underlined others. But I was able to see what it was. The
15 list consisted of medical supplies such as bandages, that was the first
16 item on the list. It was the typical military medical kit that any
17 soldier needed, the first-aid kit, which meant that they were making some
18 military preparations. And he was asking for larger quantities than the
19 ones specified on the list. And this is -- this was an interesting detail
20 which I remember.
21 Q. At the end of this meeting, what were the impressions that you
22 took away of what was going to happen?
23 A. Our conclusions were as follows: They were getting ready to
24 attack Kozarac at all costs. Had they said: "Return the weapons that you
25 have" or "let's try to establish how many pieces you really have," if they
Page 4615
1 had said "1.000 pieces or 500 pieces, those would have been realistic
2 requests. But they spoke about 5.000 or 10.000 pieces of weapons and they
3 knew -- they were aware of the fact that this was impossible. This
4 particular aspect of the meeting told us that they were going to attack
5 Kozarac anyway.
6 Moreover, we were aware of the artillery placements all around the
7 area, and that the barrels were facing the areas inhabited by non-Serbs.
8 So this was the overall context of this ultimatum, and we could see no way
9 out of the situation. We tried not to give them any pretext for such an
10 attack. We also tried to organise ourselves in order to prevent the
11 massacre of the population --
12 Q. Can I stop you, Mr. Sejmenovic. I'm going to come on to the steps
13 you took later. I just want to go back for a moment to first something
14 you just said and then this document, to complete it. You told us that
15 you were aware of artillery placements around the area. By the time of
16 this meeting, could you see the artillery surrounding the Kozarac area?
17 A. The artillery had surrounded Kozarac even before this meeting took
18 place. At some locations, the artillery had been placed long time before,
19 immediately after the return of the 5th Kozarac Brigade in the battlefield
20 in Croatia, for instance, at Urije, located at the outskirts of Prijedor.
21 The artillery had been there for a very long time, and it was not --
22 Q. You told us that yesterday. What I want to know is had there been
23 any further movement of artillery in the area of --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Right.
Page 4616
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Page 4617
1 A. Yes. After the takeover and before the period I'm talking about,
2 sometime in mid-May, there was further movement of artillery, for
3 instance, in the area above Kozarac, near the quarry. One of such
4 locations was Benkovac, as well. Mortars were positioned near the road,
5 below the road, 1 kilometre away from Kozarac. There were mortars
6 positioned from the direction of Omarska, from the vicinity of the village
7 of Hadzici, a Bosniak village. Artillery was also positioned at the
8 Tomasica hill with the barrels turned towards Kozarac. This artillery was
9 also positioned during the period of time I'm talking about. This was
10 observed -- most of this was observed by local farmers. And there was no
11 resistance whatsoever to this type of activity.
12 Q. All right. Can we just come back briefly to this document. You've
13 told us you first heard about this order to disarm at this meeting. Were
14 any announcements made over the radio, that you heard, saying that weapons
15 must be surrendered?
16 A. There was an announcement to that effect at the time of this
17 meeting, but its broadcast intensified after the meeting. It could be
18 heard every hour over the radio.
19 Q. This talks about illegally acquired weapons. First of all, did
20 people, in fact, surrender their weapons as a result of this ultimatum?
21 A. Following the ultimatum, and prior to the ultimatum for a brief
22 period, all weapons owned by people in Kozarac was within the TO.
23 Regardless of the quality of these weapons. Handmade rifles, old Turkish
24 Kubara guns, pistols from Second World War, handmade pistols, hunting
25 rifles, weapons belonging to the police and to the TO, as well as weapons
Page 4618
1 that had been purchased privately, mostly by Serbs in Omarska. All these
2 weapons were listed and given to the Kozarac TO. The Serbian Crisis Staff
3 treated all these weapons as illegal weapons.
4 Q. Did that include, therefore, weapons for which people had permits,
5 legally issued permits?
6 A. Yes, of course. Just to give you an example, hunting rifles,
7 pistols, weapons with authorisation, people owned authorisations for these
8 weapons, and they obtained those authorisation certificates long before
9 the war.
10 Q. Did this ultimatum for illegally acquired weapons apply to Serbs
11 as far as you could see?
12 A. No, it didn't.
13 Q. All right. I want to move then just quickly to two other aspects
14 that are dealt with in these conclusions. First, it states in Item 4 that
15 war plans had to be analysed and approved by the council for national
16 defence, or the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region. "Only persons who
17 are absolutely loyal to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina can
18 be placed in management positions in enterprises."
19 Now, before the takeover on the 30th of April, 1992, were
20 management positions held by persons of non-Serb ethnicity?
21 A. Yes, there was an equal distribution of Serbs and non-Serbs in
22 the managerial positions.
23 Q. After the takeover, what was the situation in respect of non-Serbs
24 who held management positions in enterprises?
25 A. Those people were dismissed and replaced by Serbs.
Page 4619
1 Q. And finally, it states that "all persons who fail to respond to
2 the above calls shall be forbidden," that is, to return to the
3 municipality, "shall be forbidden to return to their homes in the
4 territory of the ARK and all their movable and immovable property shall be
5 confiscated."
6 How was that put into effect?
7 A. This decision was put into effect soon after the attack on parts
8 of Prijedor, Hambarine, and Kozarac. They began to confiscate private
9 property. They started with the most valuable items, and then forbade
10 people to return to their homes, those houses at least that had not been
11 destroyed. And then very soon we noticed other people moving into these
12 houses. During the first days, when they confiscated someone's car, they
13 would issue the person with a certificate to the effect that this was only
14 temporary confiscation. But later on, property was confiscated and no
15 further certificates were issued.
16 They started to loot, confiscate, and rob in an organised way.
17 Q. We'll come on to that later. This decision doesn't specify any
18 ethnicity. It says: "All male persons fit for war". Were there any
19 Serbs, to your knowledge, who had left the area and had their property
20 confiscated?
21 A. I don't know of a single case like that. There may have been such
22 cases, but at least not in the area where I lived and where I was familiar
23 with the situation. And there were a number of Serbian households there.
24 Some people had been absent from the area for a while, but their property
25 was not confiscated.
Page 4620
1 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic. That's what I want to ask you
2 about this document.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'd move for its full admission, if I
4 may.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Here, I can't ask the Defence because the Bench
6 has doubts, and the time is not yet right for a decision. Probably the
7 underlying document was another one because apparently when you only look
8 on the numbers, the one in Cyrillic ends with 6, and English was 5.
9 Probably it's a typo or numerous typos only. When you see the scope of
10 underlining, it's different. And then it would be of major interest,
11 apparently on the B/C/S document, there seems to be an additional headline
12 indicating that it was sent by fax. Therefore, it's indispensable to have
13 the original before us. Thank you.
14 MS. KORNER:
15 Q. Now, before I deal with the steps that you took I want to return
16 for a moment to the political scene that was happening. Did you become
17 aware of a meeting in Banja Luka on the 12th of May of the Serbian
18 assembly, the Serbian Republic assembly?
19 A. I knew at that time that there had been meetings of Serbian
20 assemblies. Sometimes, we were able to watch TV or listen to the radio.
21 I didn't know much about the specific issues discussed by these
22 assemblies.
23 Q. Do you recall an announcement being made as to the goals of the
24 Serbian -- the Bosnian Serb Republic?
25 A. The goals were proclaimed publicly in different programmes.
Page 4621
1 Announcements by Crisis Staffs were usually followed by announcements of
2 the leaders at the local level and the regional level. At least as far as
3 public announcements were concerned, everything was subordinated to the
4 overriding plan of creating a Serb state. These were clear views. There
5 was no more hide and seek.
6 Q. And do you recall the announcement that a declaration of the
7 Serbian Republic and its own army within Bosnia and Herzegovina?
8 A. Yes, I do recall that.
9 Q. Then I'd like you, please, to have a look at the document with the
10 65 ter number 147, which are the minutes of the meeting held on the 12th
11 of May in Banja Luka.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, with the same position before, that I'm
13 going to ask him about the knowledge of the persons involved and the
14 things said.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Provisional number will be, then, S141. But
16 let's please proceed in the same way as with the last minutes we had
17 yesterday. Read out what is necessary those parts, and only those parts
18 then will be admitted into evidence.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. If I may at this point
21 object. And the reason for my objection is that this is just an attempt
22 to circumvent what this witness has just previously said on page 49, line
23 16 through 17 where the witness clearly states that he doesn't or did not
24 know about the specific issues discussed by these assemblies. Now
25 counsel is either trying to refresh his recollection or have this witness
Page 4622
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Page 4623
1 attempt to read what we can argue at times is left best for our own
2 interpretation or the interpretation by witnesses who were present, or
3 experts who have reviewed these documents and give their opinions on that.
4 This witness was clearly not at the assembly meeting on May 12th, 1992; he
5 clearly states he did not see it on television or hear about it on the
6 radio. And clearly and unequivocally acknowledged that he did not know
7 any of the specific issues that were discussed at this assembly. So I
8 object on those grounds and think that it would be highly improper to let
9 this witness now to review this document and give us any testimony in
10 connection with that based upon what he previously just told us.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we went through this same argument with
12 the minutes of the 11th of December. It is clear, because I've referred
13 to some of the issues that are discussed during this meeting, that the
14 witness did, in fact, hear about some of the issues. He knows many of the
15 people who are involved in these discussions, and he is able to assist to
16 that extent. And it may well be once his memory is refreshed from it,
17 he's able to say that he did see some of this on television.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Indeed. It it's restricted to facts known by
19 the witness only, and if the document and only the parts of the document
20 will serve for as Defence counsel said correctly "refresh the memory of
21 the witness," then it may do so. Therefore, objection rejected.
22 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
23 Q. This, as I've said, Mr. Sejmenovic, was held -- this assembly was
24 held on the 12th of May, 1992, in Banja Luka, chaired by the president of
25 the assembly, Mr. Krajisnik. And if we look at the agenda, it includes a
Page 4624
1 report on the political conditions and the war, as it's described, in the
2 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And it then deals with
3 various other matters that are to be considered. Adopting text of the
4 oath, confirmation of the decisions and other legislation, and then
5 amendments to the constitution and so on and so forth.
6 However, if we turn, please, to the next page in our translation,
7 we see the proposed text of the oath. "I swear I shall abide by the
8 constitution and the laws of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina. I shall protect its constitutional system honourably and
10 faithfully, respecting moral standards and spiritual values and the
11 struggle for the freedom of Serbian people and all other citizens of the
12 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, so help me God."
13 I'm stopping there, Mr. Sejmenovic. Did you come to hear what the
14 exact terms of the oath that had to be taken was?
15 MR. OSTOJIC: May we also, Your Honour, have a time reference as
16 to when the witness learned of this oath, whether it was yesterday during
17 the proofing or whether it was ten years ago just to keep the question
18 clear.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes, certainly, I accept that.
20 Q. Can you tell us if you heard first of all, and then secondly, when
21 you heard.
22 A. Are you referring to this form of the oath, or the specific oath
23 where the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is referred to?
24 Q. The oath, the text which was apparently adopted, which you can
25 read under Item 2.
Page 4625
1 A. I did hear this oath, but I can't tell you the exact period. Was
2 it May, was it June of 1992, or later? I really can't say, I'm afraid. I
3 can't remember. But I did hear it.
4 Q. And who was obliged to take this oath to the Serbian Republic?
5 A. Ministers, government members, deputies to the parliament were
6 obliged to take this oath. And there was an identical oath that was used
7 when the Serbian Municipal Assemblies were being set up, except that
8 instead of the name of the Republic, the name of the municipality was
9 used. This oath, for example, was spoken in Prijedor in early 1992 in the
10 theatre when the Serbs organised the establishment of the Serbian
11 municipality, a very similar oath.
12 Q. Now, could you move, please, to page -- it's page 7 of the
13 translation. And you will see there --
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, just for clarification. We should be
15 aware that we are discussing a different document now. We started with
16 the minutes. And then on page 4, the minutes are ending. And then we
17 have to go into another document which in English I can identify as
18 original minutes. There should be a clarification.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour is quite right because we move from
20 the agenda session minutes to original minutes which are a separate
21 document. Your Honour is quite right.
22 Q. If we can go to page 7 of the translation, which is in the second
23 part of these minutes. And Mr. Sejmenovic, could you find, please, the
24 speech or an intervention after Mr. Krajisnik has opened the session, we
25 see that a man called Radislav Vukic speaks.
Page 4626
1 A. Yes, I've found it.
2 Q. First of all, do you know who Mr. Vukic was?
3 A. He was the president of the Banja Luka branch of the SDS as far as
4 I can remember.
5 Q. And he makes a proposal that after the first item has been
6 completed, "we will move on to discussion of the bill on the armed forces
7 and draft decision on establishing the armed forces staff while we are
8 still rested and fresh, and while the commanders are still here."
9 Now, I want to ask you this: Do you recall seeing on television a
10 session of the assembly at which senior leaders of the military were
11 present; that is to say, Mladic and Talic?
12 A. Yes, I did see this on TV later on. At that time, we couldn't
13 watch TV. But later on, it was quite regular.
14 Q. And do you remember -- when you say "later on," how much later was
15 that?
16 A. In 1993, 1994, 1995.
17 Q. I see, so these were things you saw after you left.
18 Can we then move, please, to the next speech of Mr. Karadzic. And
19 he suggests -- he said, close to the beginning of the speech: "In Bosnia
20 and Herzegovina over the last two years since the founding of the HDZ,
21 first in Croatia and then in Herzegovina, and later in Bosnia too, with
22 its militant and dangerous gatherings with the insignia of the Ustasha
23 regime who has committed genocide against us and the setting up of the SDA
24 at it founding assembly with their militant Islamic fundamentalism."
25 Now, had you heard Mr. Karadzic described the HDZ and the SDA in
Page 4627
1 those terms before this?
2 A. If we are speaking about Mr. Karadzic's speeches in the Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina parliament he did not use such extreme expressions. But if
4 we're talking about party meetings and the SDS party policies, yes, they
5 were labelled in this way.
6 Q. Had you actually, when you say he was in the parliament of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, he didn't use such extreme expressions. Had you
8 actually seen him or heard him using those expressions on television or in
9 the press?
10 A. Yes, of course. Later on it became standard fare, the vocabulary
11 he was using.
12 Q. Now, still -- and I'm afraid it's quite difficult to find. This
13 is still Mr. Karadzic's speech. It's at the bottom of the translation,
14 page 11, and it's -- the sentence begins "Such a solution" -- I'm sorry, I
15 should take it back. "We found a solution with the United Nations for
16 Serbian Krajina."
17 A. Is this the beginning of a passage or is it --
18 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. My fault. The passage begins: "We understand
19 the pressure from the OSCE to which we belong."
20 A. It's all right, I just found it.
21 Q. Thank you. Right at the bottom, or very close to the end of the
22 bottom, there's a sentence that begins: "We tried to reconcile our
23 internal situation and our interests with the interests of others."
24 A. Yes, I've found it.
25 Q. The part I want to ask you about is this: "Such a solution was
Page 4628
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Page 4629
1 not on the horizon in Bosnia and Herzegovina" -- I'm sorry. I ought to
2 read the whole passage so we can put it into context. "We tried to
3 reconcile our internal situation and our interests with the interests of
4 others outside of us. Those who live outside of us, and that is how we
5 found a solution with the United Nations for Serbian Krajina which, as a
6 sort of respite, may allow us to describe the position of our Serbian
7 brothers in Krajina and their preparation for unification and joining a
8 common state, that is, an alliance of states or a Serbian Federation.
9 Such a solution was not on the horizon in Bosnia and Herzegovina, nor
10 could it be implemented in the way it was in Croatia because huge forces
11 would be needed to cover the Serbian territory in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
12 Besides, we ask why Serbian territory has to be covered. Why not cover
13 Muslim territory, which is much smaller and much more problematic in the
14 state and legal sense, because the laws are not being respected, and
15 terror is being used there."
16 Now, the suggestion being made in that speech or that part of the
17 speech, I should say, is that the Muslim parts of the territory in Bosnia
18 and Herzegovina, laws were not being respected, and terror was being used
19 there. Do you know to what Dr. Karadzic was referring by this reference?
20 A. He probably meant that the laws of the Serbian Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina were not being observed.
22 Q. What about "terror is being used there"?
23 A. I am not familiar with any outbreaks of terror in these areas, at
24 least as far as the area in which I lived is concerned. On the contrary,
25 the Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina and its institutions exercised terror
Page 4630
1 over the remaining population.
2 Q. Then can we look now at the goals that Dr. Karadzic set out for
3 the Bosnian Serbs and which you say you knew about. If we go, please, to
4 page 13 of the translation, and if you can find, Mr. Sejmenovic, the
5 passage that begins "the Serbian side in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the
6 presidency, the government, the council for national security..." et
7 cetera. And it may be Mr. Lukic can assist if he has the page number in
8 the Bosnian version, Cyrillic version. Have you found the passage?
9 A. Is it after these -- is it on the previous page with respect to
10 the portion we just read?
11 Q. No, it's further on from that. If you go to --
12 THE INTERPRETER: It's at the bottom of page 7.
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
14 A. Yes, I've just found it. Thank you.
15 Q. Right. The paragraph begins or the passage begins: "The Serbian
16 side in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the presidency, the government, the
17 council for national security which we have set up have formulated
18 strategic priorities; that is to say, the strategic goals for the Serbian
19 people. The first such goal is separation from the other two national
20 communities, separation of states, separation from those who are our
21 enemies and who have used every opportunity, especially in this century,
22 to attack us, and who would continue with such practices if we were to
23 continue to stay together in the same state."
24 Mr. Sejmenovic, had you heard that goal expressed before May, or
25 was this the first time when you heard about it afterwards, after this
Page 4631
1 meeting of the 12th of May?
2 A. I had heard about it before. It had been publicly discussed
3 before the first negotiations took place at the level of the Republic of
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Karadzic publicly demanded the so-called ethnic
5 division and suggested that Serbs should be separated from the rest of the
6 population. If Muslims or Bosniaks and Croats wanted to go their own way,
7 they could remain together. But as far as Serbs were concerned, his
8 position was that Serbs should be physically separated from others, both
9 along ethnic lines and in terms of public institutions. He said that they
10 would establish and create Serbian banks, Serbian PTT, Serb streets.
11 However, what was problematic was the fact that he considered some of the
12 areas which were actually non-Serb to be part of the Serb territories.
13 Q. Had he before -- I'm sorry, I should have made the question a bit
14 clearer. Had he before said that effectively, he wanted the separation
15 because non-Serbs were enemies and have used every opportunity to attack
16 and would continue attacking?
17 A. No. He had never expressed himself in that way publicly before,
18 by referring to others as enemies and as potential attackers against
19 Serbs. No. Such terms had never been used by him prior to the
20 establishment of the Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 Q. Can we deal with the second strategic goal. "It seems to me is a
22 corridor between Semberija and Krajina. That is something which we may be
23 forced to sacrifice something here and there. But it is of the utmost
24 strategic importance for the Serbian people because it integrates the
25 Serbian lands not only of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, but integrates
Page 4632
1 Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina with Serbian Krajina and Serbian Krajina
2 with the Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia. So that is a
3 strategic goal that has been placed high on the priority list that we have
4 to achieve because Bosnian Krajina, Serbian Krajina or the alliance of
5 states or Serbian Federation is not feasible if we fail to secure that
6 corridor which will integrate us, which will provide us with unimpeded
7 flow from one part of our state to another."
8 Did you hear about this --
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. Just for our clarification, good to know
10 that the Bench in part can follow the Cyrillic lines. We were surprised
11 by reading Semberija in English. Could the witness please turn to page 8,
12 second paragraph, the three last words. Have you ever seen these words
13 before, and what is special with this Semberija?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Semberija is a part of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina bordering on Serbia.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification in this
17 context. Thank you.
18 MS. KORNER:
19 Q. Now, this corridor that had to be created, had you heard reference
20 to this before May?
21 A. No, not before May.
22 Q. Did you hear about it either at the time or after this meeting of
23 the 12th of May?
24 A. I heard about it after the meeting of the 12th of May, shortly
25 after that. The word "corridor" was the most frequently mentioned word
Page 4633
1 over the radio because parts of the 5th Kozara Brigade had been sent to
2 the front line to establish and defend this corridor.
3 Q. And this goal, as it was expressed, to set up a corridor between
4 Semberija and the Krajina, did that have any direct effect on the Prijedor
5 municipality? Did its positioning have any importance for this idea of a
6 corridor?
7 A. It wouldn't have any importance if Bosnia and Herzegovina existed.
8 It could only have significance in case these Serb territories are
9 separated and needed to be connected with Serbia. Because several areas
10 are relevant here, if you look at the map. Some of these areas do not
11 have natural, physical connection with Serbia, and the corridor was needed
12 in order to establish this communication in order to link up these Serb
13 areas with the Republic of Serbia.
14 Q. And in relation to this need to link up the Serb areas, where did
15 Prijedor fit in it?
16 A. Prijedor is located far away from the corridor.
17 Q. All right. Can we deal very quickly, then, with the last goals.
18 The third strategic goal was to establish another corridor in the Drina
19 valley. And the fourth strategic goal, the establishment on the border on
20 the Una and Neretva Rivers.
21 MS. KORNER: It think it may as well be if, after the break, we
22 just look at a very quick map, or a map quickly, rather.
23 Q. And the fifth strategic goal is the division of the city of
24 Sarajevo into Serbian and Muslim parts, and the sixth strategic goal is
25 the access of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina to the sea.
Page 4634
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Page 4635
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think it's a little bit early, but
2 it's a good place to stop. We would like to look at that map.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. The trial stands adjourned until
4 2.00 sharp.
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 2.03 p.m.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. And once again, we have
8 before us a question to deal with the next three months. The six
9 strategic goals, please proceed.
10 MS. KORNER: What I was about to do, Your Honour, was we've blown
11 up part of a full map of Bosnia and Herzegovina which has not yet been
12 exhibited, but it's the easiest way to show this. And the Defence have
13 seen a copy and don't object, I understand.
14 I wonder -- the best thing is for it to be put on the ELMO, and
15 Your Honour, we'll provide copies for the Chamber and to the Defence by
16 Monday.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I appreciate, registry, that it will be 142?
18 Wasn't the previous one -- okay, fine. 142 provisionally.
19 MS. KORNER:
20 Q. Now, let's identify first of all, please, Mr. Sejmenovic, for
21 the -- it's not really that clear, but can we just identify Prijedor. We
22 can move the map slightly towards the right.
23 A. Prijedor is here where I'm showing.
24 Q. Can you indicate, and I think we'll have to map to its very edge
25 where Semberija is. Yes, we'll have to push the map along. Can we move
Page 4636
1 the map.
2 A. This is the area of Semberija. And here across the border is the
3 territory of the Republic of Serbia.
4 Q. And we can see one of the major towns there is Bijeljina.
5 A. Yes, Bijeljina is the administrative centre, not only
6 administrative, but also the economic and political centre of the
7 Semberija.
8 Q. Can I just ask you, if you were travelling through this area, in
9 other words from Serbia through Semberija, and you wanted to go as is said
10 in the second strategic goal the Krajina, the Autonomous Region of
11 Krajina, what would the route -- the most simple route be? For example,
12 let's take a purely hypothetical example, you want troops to come from
13 Serbia through this -- to go towards the Krajina, and then Croatia, what
14 would be the most straightforward route or the best route?
15 A. The best or --
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm hesitant that the witness could answer such
17 a question, to be honest. The first portion of your question was more
18 adequate, which would be the normal travel route. I have not the
19 impression that our witness is an expert on defence.
20 MS. KORNER: No. I'll rephrase the question.
21 Q. I should ask, first of all, have you ever travelled,
22 Mr. Sejmenovic --
23 A. The most usual --
24 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't catch the answer there.
25 A. The most usual route to take, if one was to travel from this area
Page 4637
1 here to the parts of Croatia that you mentioned, would be via Vinkovci,
2 because the roads are much better over there. However, there is an
3 alternative route across Tuzla, Doboj, Banja Luka, Prijedor, Bosanski
4 Novi, and then further on to Croatia. If one wanted to travel to Serb
5 ethnic territories --
6 Q. Stop for a moment. Just so that we can see it, because the
7 maps -- you would say you would go from Bijeljina to Tuzla. Can we move
8 the map so we can see Doboj. And then you said to Banja Luka.
9 A. Yes, to Banja Luka. Or Bijeljina, Brcko, Derventa, Banja Luka.
10 Q. If you wanted to go into the Croatian Krajina?
11 A. If you wanted to go to the Croatian Krajina from Banja Luka, you
12 would have to go to Prijedor, then to Bosanski Novi, and then further on
13 to Croatia; or Bosanski Novi, Bosanska Krupa, Bihac, and then Croatia
14 depending on your destination in Croatia.
15 Q. But either route would take you through Prijedor, whether you went
16 through Krupa or Novi?
17 A. If you have arrived at Banja Luka from that direction, then you
18 would have to continue to Prijedor, Bosanski Novi, Bosanska Krupa, and
19 Bihac. Of course, you would have to pass through Prijedor. Prijedor can
20 be bypassed only if you go to Novo Gradiska, which is a different
21 destination in Croatia. If you wanted to go to the Croatian Krajina, then
22 the best way would be Prijedor, Bosanski Novi.
23 Q. Now, can we just, while you've still got the map, deal with this:
24 The fourth strategic goal was the establishment of the border on the Una
25 and Neretva Rivers. Can you just indicate the Una River, first of all.
Page 4638
1 A. The River Una can be seen here on the map, depicted in blue,
2 running from Bosanski Novi to Bihac and further on. I am now following
3 the Una River.
4 Q. And can one see on the map -- it may not be on it -- the Neretva
5 River? Maybe not.
6 A. The Neretva River cannot be seen on this portion of the map.
7 Q. Can you just roughly tell us where that is.
8 A. It is here, in this area compared to the map.
9 Q. Can we just bring the map down slightly. So it's below Sarajevo,
10 is it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Unless there are any other areas that
13 Your Honours would like the witness to point out, that's all that I intend
14 to ask.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MS. KORNER: Unless there are any other areas.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not at the moment.
18 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you. You can take the map away.
19 Q. I'm sorry, one more question. Hand the map back. It says the
20 sixth strategic goal is the access of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina to the sea. Where was the nearest access to the sea that
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina would have?
23 A. Could you zoom in, please. Can this portion here be enlarged,
24 please? The other way around.
25 Can we see all of this part on the ELMO, please.
Page 4639
1 The shortest way to the coast from Bosnia and Herzegovina was
2 here, if we had the remainder of the map, we would be able to see it.
3 Q. All right. I think we get the general idea. I'm just seeing if I
4 can see what the nearest big town is. We can see, I think, it's not very
5 clear, but is this right, we can see Knin on the left of the map?
6 A. Yes, we can Knin here, but Bosnia and Herzegovina have access to
7 the coast in the area of Neum, where I'm indicating with the pointer. And
8 that is the closest way to the coast. Neum is the direct access to the
9 coast, but there's also an area which is very close to the border of
10 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
11 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Sejmenovic. Now you really can take the
12 map away.
13 Now, I want to move, leaving Mr. Karadzic's speech, to a couple of
14 other speeches that were made during that session. And I just want to
15 find -- yes -- it's a speech made by a man called Kalinic. It's on page
16 22 of the translation. And for your purposes, Mr. Sejmenovic, if you go
17 through -- carry on in the record, after Karadzic, you get somebody called
18 Beli, and then somebody called Mr. Milosevic, who is not I hasten to add
19 the Milosevic who is on trial. Then Mr. Radic, Trifko Radic, Mr. Djuric,
20 and then finally Mr. Kalinic.
21 A. Yes, I've found this passage.
22 Q. Now, first of all, had you ever heard or met somebody called
23 Dragan Kalinic?
24 A. Yes, I knew Dragan Kalinic from the assembly of Bosnia and
25 Herzegovina. He was a member of the opposition.
Page 4640
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Page 4641
1 Q. When he was still a member of the assembly of Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina, what were his views like? Were they moderate, extreme?
3 A. His views were rather moderate. He was not a member of the SDS,
4 but a member of one of the left-wing parties and was a member of this very
5 active opposition in the assembly, together with other deputies of mixed
6 ethnic origin. He was very often opposed to the intentions and positions
7 of the SDS. I'm referring to his actual speeches and interventions at the
8 parliament. I remember when the declaration on independence was
9 discussed, that he was against it. And he spoke publicly against it.
10 Q. All right. Well, let's -- I'm sorry. And the other thing is, was
11 there as far, as you could see from the time that you were in the
12 assembly, and both he and Brdjanin were there, was there any special
13 relation? I'm sorry. Did they seem particularly close or friendly or
14 express similar views?
15 A. If I were to judge by their statements and discussions in which
16 they took part at the parliament, they did not seem close at all. And
17 before these discussions, they were never seen together or in any kind of
18 contact, Kalinic and members of the SDS.
19 Q. All right. Can we just have a look for a moment at what -- part
20 of what Mr. Kalinic had to say at this session. As you say rightly,
21 he -- it doesn't seem he was a member of the party because he says:
22 "Gentlemen and ladies, I will speak on behalf of the group of independent
23 deputies of this assembly. I would like first to apologise for appearing
24 on this stand in such inappropriate attire. It is because we are at war,
25 and we all brought what we could."
Page 4642
1 And he then says: "I would like to address some of the things I
2 have heard here and some of the information and ideas that have been in
3 circulation lately, which would create a certain confusion among our
4 people, and maybe this would be the right place to clear such issues up
5 while there is still time. Among all the issues, this assembly should
6 decide on, the most important one is this: Have we chosen the option of
7 war or the option of negotiation? I say this with a reason, and I must
8 instantly add that knowing who our enemies are, how perfidious they are,
9 how they cannot be trusted until they are physically, militarily
10 destroyed, and crushed, which, of course, implies eliminating and
11 liquidating their key people. I do not hesitate in selecting the first
12 option, the option of war because I believe that our fate, the fate of
13 Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I do not link it in any way to the fate
14 of Serbia and Montenegro. I have said this before, our sentimental and
15 national bonds in this respect must be reduced in this respect to a
16 pragmatic level and established on the basis of interest, that the fate of
17 Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina cannot be solved in any other way but by war.
18 It is possible that in doing this, the fate of our Serbs in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina would be to chose a hundred years of solitude over 500
20 years of slavery under some new Turkish empire. We will find ourselves in
21 an extreme isolation, and will only have ourselves to rely on. We have to
22 calculate on this, and I will be the first one to say here that I am
23 ready, as probably most of you are, to share this fate with our people.
24 "Why do I say that the option of war seems more likely to me?
25 Because only what has been conquered militarily may become really and
Page 4643
1 truly ours."
2 I'm going to come back and ask you something about this in a
3 moment, but I'd like you just to go on, please, for a moment to find
4 Mr. Brdjanin's speech, which is on our page 29. And for your purposes,
5 Mr. Sejmenovic, it comes -- there are three speeches in between. One by
6 Mr. Kupresanin, and then Mr. Brdjanin.
7 A. I've found the speech of Mr. Brdjanin.
8 Q. Radislav Brdjanin: "Mr. President, I asked for the floor only
9 after I realised that I was the most remote, that compared to everything
10 else, I am the kindergarten. I would like first of all -- I would first
11 of all like to thank all those participating in the discussion. I would
12 like to say a heartfelt bravo to Mr. Kalinic in all my appearances in this
13 joint assembly, it has never crossed my mind that although he seems quiet,
14 while I seem hawkish, his opinions are the closest to mine. I believe
15 that this is the formula and that we should adhere to this formula."
16 In other words, at that stage, Mr. Sejmenovic, it appears that
17 Mr. Brdjanin is echoing what you have described about Mr. Kalinic in being
18 quiet --
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Defence tries to take the floor a couple minutes
20 ago.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Pardon me. Your Honour, at this point we object to
22 this line of questioning as it relates to Mr. Kalinic, and also I truly
23 believe, although I know we've modified the rule somewhat, and not so far
24 as reading the entire text of the speech and incorporating with what the
25 witness earlier testified about, this witness's more moderate views, but
Page 4644
1 how does that in any way relate or how does it connect up with Dr. Stakic
2 who was never alleged to have been at this meeting or have any
3 relationship with Brdjanin or Mr. Kalinic. In this case, I think what
4 we're trying to do, unfortunately, is to cloud the issues that are before
5 us, and if you read on and read the entire text of not just this document,
6 but other issues, Mr. Kalinic is specifically referring to the war that's
7 occurring in Sarajevo, and that's the war that they are debating. He also
8 talks about various Green Berets that I don't want to again poison the
9 entire record by suggesting that there were or there were not. We could
10 address that later in my cross-examination.
11 He also testifies about certain mercenaries coming from various
12 different countries and he cites a specific number. It really doesn't
13 have anything to do, and he goes on to discuss Sarajevo in quite some
14 detail and the war. How does that have anything to do with Prijedor? As
15 we saw on the map it's remotely distant. And I would object on the
16 grounds that it's irrelevant and also there's leading questions by the OTP
17 in connection with what Brdjanin thought and whether those were his
18 thoughts. If this witness can tell us what Brdjanin thought about
19 Mr. Kalinic, I would agree that he can testify to that only after we
20 establish the foundation that such testimony is relevant, which I still
21 have not unfortunately been able to determine.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, because it's clearly an issue that's
23 coming up over and over again, if the witness -- I know Your Honour
24 doesn't want delay -- but I think I better put the OTP's position on this
25 and that's why I'm going through this. And Your Honour would prefer it
Page 4645
1 not be done in the presence of the witness.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If the OTP is prepared to show a little bit of
4 self-restraint as regards this text be read out in total, because
5 apparently indeed, the Defence might be correct that also bearing in mind
6 the entire context of the indictment, we are departing a little bit, to
7 put it this way. And I would appreciate to guide the witness to that what
8 he really has seen and experienced at that time in the area forming part
9 of the substantive matter of our case.
10 Please proceed. And we should discuss it properly a little bit
11 later in the absence of the witness.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour. That's the difficulty. I'm sorry about
13 this, but the documents that you see listed, a lot of them deal with this
14 aspect of the case. Your Honour, I think I can deal with this very simply
15 without going into detail, so it doesn't effect the witness being here.
16 Your Honour, this is an allegation not simply of what took place in
17 Prijedor, but -- does Your Honour want me to continue or not?
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we are all aware of this, and we are
19 aware of this idea of the OTP having this overall view what they regard
20 has happened in former Yugoslavia and the link between all incidents,
21 accidents, serious crimes committed there. But we already previously
22 stated, we should refrain from trying to give the impression that it is
23 alleged that Dr. Stakic in person is -- and please, object if you don't
24 have the same approach -- that Dr. Stakic, he himself, can't be held
25 responsible. For example, to be quite concrete, for what a person, an
Page 4646
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Page 4647
1 independent deputy in this assembly has said. I'm aware that it's very
2 difficult, and it's challenging indeed to establish this entire context.
3 But wouldn't it be more helpful on the basis of facts and, as I said the
4 experiences the witness has made and he has told us already a lot of what
5 he has experienced during this period in time and bringing into
6 relationship what actually happened, but without giving the impression
7 that there should be, for example, it's only in a nutshell, a link between
8 an independent deputy saying this and Dr. Stakic. There has to be made a
9 clear distinction.
10 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, it's the intervening link that's
11 important. It's not that the Prosecution has a theory; it's what the
12 evidence shows and what the Prosecution has to prove as part of
13 international law, which is applied in this indictment. And one of the
14 things that it is obliged to prove is what's called widespread and
15 systematic, that these things happened as a result of a pattern. The
16 importance -- I agree with you, Your Honour, entirely, an independent
17 person's speech like this would have no relevance except for what is said
18 by the intervenor, the speech that we just looked at. And the evidence,
19 we say, shows that Mr. Stakic and Mr. Brdjanin were closely linked
20 together. And the next question I'm going to ask is whereby this speech
21 rests.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we should indeed not continue this
23 discussion in the presence of the witness before us. And another point of
24 relevance is, of course, the OTP has to know how to use the time available
25 in the most appropriate manner from the OTP's perspective. I can't add
Page 4648
1 anything. So please proceed in this spirit.
2 MS. KORNER: Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, what I want to ask you is this: And I want to
4 jump ahead a moment to what you dealt with slightly and what happened to
5 you. In respect of the leadership of the SDA in Prijedor, what happened
6 to the leaders of the SDA after the takeover by the SDS?
7 A. After the SDS took over, preparations ensued that I have already
8 talked about, and an attack was carried out on parts of Prijedor.
9 Afterwards, almost the entire leadership of the SDA, its members, were
10 captured. They were either killed or they were classified as missing for
11 a while. A very small number of them managed to escape in time or hide
12 somewhere.
13 Q. What about leaders of the HDZ, if you're aware of that?
14 A. I know that a similar fate also befell leaders of the HDZ, as well
15 as leaders of other opposition parties who were non-Serbs.
16 Q. What about persons not specifically associated with a political
17 party, but who could be considered leaders of the communities who were
18 non-Serbs?
19 A. In as far as they had any authority, and if they were captured
20 during the first period, they were killed. If they held official
21 positions, if they were presiding judges or just judges or managers, if
22 they were owners of the pharmacy, for example, most of them were killed.
23 Teachers, professors, engineers, economists.
24 Q. Yes. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm asking for the reason that this be
Page 4649
1 admitted into evidence.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we please ask the witness, before we come to
3 this point, to turn in the B/C/S version to page 5. And please, read out
4 the final line and what you can see and read under this final line. It's
5 the first document.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last line on page 5 reads: "The
7 tape recording of this session is a part of this record." If His Honour
8 would wish me to say, I can say what this means exactly.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. And in addition, what you can find under
10 this line, just for the record.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under this line, there is a stamp
12 "Republika Srpska" and "the national assembly of Republika Srpska in
13 Sarajevo." Signed by president of the assembly, Momcilo Krajisnik.
14 Now, I want to explain that it is standard procedure in the work
15 of any parliament, be it at the republic level or at the municipal level,
16 is that the whole course of proceedings is recorded in shorthand and, at
17 the same time, taped. If possible, a videorecording is made. The tape
18 recording and the record both represent an official document reflecting
19 the meeting. This is usual practice, provided, of course, that the
20 necessary equipment is available.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do I understand it correctly that the following
22 page brings us to these minutes, starting once again with page 1?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Here it reads: "Original
24 record." It was probably put together on the basis of the tape or the
25 record in shorthand, and then corrected by using the tape recording. I'm
Page 4650
1 talking about the standard procedure, how this is usually done.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this assistance in providing us
3 some guidance for the link between the two documents tendered by the OTP.
4 If you then, please, turn to page 46 of this second document and
5 read the last line and, just for the record, whether there is a signature
6 or a stamp.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Page 46, the last page of the
8 document, the last sentence reads: "I declare the 16th session closed and
9 thank you for attending." There is no stamp here and no signature.
10 Usually, this page is not stamped or signed, at least the way we did it in
11 the Bosnia and Herzegovina parliament.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Indeed, easily to be understood.
13 Two documents are tendered. Objections by the Defence?
14 MR. OSTOJIC: Same objections as outlined previously, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
16 Then the former 65 ter document 147 is, in those parts read out
17 today, and that can be followed on today's transcripts, admitted into
18 evidence. The minutes under S141-1A for English and B for B/C/S. And the
19 second document, the so-called original minutes, as S141-2A for the
20 English version, B for the B/C/S version. And once again, only in those
21 parts read out and forming part of today's transcript.
22 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Can I give back to
23 one of the documents that Your Honours asked about before. This is
24 Exhibit 65 ter 146, which Your Honours admitted provisionally, as 140.
25 We've rescued the original from the vault -- I say "we have." It may be
Page 4651
1 that Your Honours want to have a look at that copy because it's a
2 certified copy.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If it could be first of all presented to the
4 Defence.
5 MS. KORNER: To the Defence, yes.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And then, please.
7 MS. KORNER: That is -- I should add, it's the original original.
8 To the Defence first, and then to the...
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If the OTP could be so kind and provide us
11 additionally with a copy of the back side of this document. And then just
12 for the record, we would appreciate if the English translation, having
13 apparently numerous typos, first of all as regards the numbering of the
14 paragraphs, if this could be corrected and, first of all, it has to be
15 added that here we can read a headline indicating 12/05 '92, 14:46, then a
16 sign for a telephone, 38 78 12 566 SO, Banja Luka YU, and then 02. And
17 beneath handwritten, 13351. If this could be adapted, it would be fine.
18 And then return this original immediately to the OTP.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we'll recopy the whole document for Your
20 Honours so that the fax number shows clearly. And I should add, we've
21 already requested for a new or better translation, to correct those
22 errors.
23 And while I just deal with that, we've also obtained the
24 original --
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's first conclude this, being aware that a
Page 4652
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Page 4653
1 copy of a copy only under this reservation, it's admitted into evidence as
2 S140A and B.
3 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Your Honour, in respect of the
4 other document that Your Honours queried very helpfully because of the
5 inability to read parts of it, Your Honour, again we've obtained the
6 original from the vault. It is the best copy, Your Honours. And I can
7 hand that up. It was provided, I understand, by a witness. I'm not sure
8 what more we can do about it, but it may be that you're --
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May it be given first to the Defence and then to
10 the Bench, please.
11 MS. KORNER: Yes. It was the provisional S136.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Observations by the Defence?
14 MR. OSTOJIC: Similar to that which we have made previously to the
15 document identified as 65 ter 85, provisional S136. The stamp is
16 indicative, at least in my view, of the opinion that this is a stamp from
17 Bosanski Novi. It clearly shows the Bosanski with a dot and then Novi is
18 plainly written there, so again, it's based on the relevance of the
19 document, as well as the other objection that is we raised at that time
20 with respect to signature, et cetera.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Bearing in mind these reservations shared by the
22 Bench, the Bench decided to admit this into evidence as S136A and B. Thank
23 you for the efforts. May it be given to the OTP, please.
24 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Your Honour, for my own purposes, can I ask what time Your Honour
Page 4654
1 is intending to take a break this afternoon?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: At 5 past 3.00, please.
4 MS. KORNER:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Sejmenovic, I want to move what you began to talk about
6 before the break, and that was actions you took in respect of the TO in
7 Kozarac after that meeting that you had with the SDS in around mid-May.
8 Can you tell us what actions were taken?
9 A. It was decided to complete the organisation of the TO as soon as
10 possible, and to have the TO defend the territory, to make this its
11 function. As the organisation of the TO could not be carried out as
12 ordered by the territorial staff, the only thing we could do is do it at
13 the local level, meaning at the Kozarac local commune level and other
14 local communes belonging to the same area.
15 At the local level, the people in charge of these tasks
16 intensified their activity, and they tried to organise as quickly as
17 possible the TO units and charged them with protecting the Kozarac area.
18 Following the meeting at which we had been given the ultimatum, a meeting
19 of the citizens, as we used to refer to it, was convened. A mass rally
20 attended by all prominent persons, as well as all those who came there to
21 see what the result of the meeting was. It was also attended by all local
22 leaders. The discussion at the meeting with the SDS was conveyed in full,
23 the result of our discussions with Arsic and Zeljaja, and then some people
24 came forward with their opinions on what they thought was best in terms of
25 what we should do next. And they were seeking any possibility to
Page 4655
1 re-establish contact with the SDS. They elaborated theories on the future
2 course of events and the possibilities that were involved. Everyone's
3 conclusion, based on the overall situation, as well as on the results of
4 the meeting that had been held was that the army was ready to attack
5 Kozarac.
6 Regardless of that, we decided to keep trying to re-establish our
7 contact with the SDS and to ask the SDS, Colonel Arsic and Zeljaja, to
8 have talks again, to resume negotiations. And at the same time,
9 endeavours were made to organise, in the best possible way, the TO members
10 and the weapons available.
11 Q. Can you pause there for a moment. Let's just deal with these two
12 possibilities. First of all, were you able to re-establish contact with
13 either Colonel Arsic or Major Zeljaja before the attack happened?
14 A. I know that attempts were made on a daily basis, and I know that
15 it was all to no avail. I know that at a certain point, those from
16 Prijedor accepted to talk, perhaps one day before the attack took place or
17 just at the beginning of the attack. I know that some people did go to
18 have talks, and I know that these people who had gone never returned. Our
19 suspicion was that they had been killed, but then they were registered at
20 missing persons for years after.
21 Q. Now, what happened then about the organisation in the best
22 possible way, as you put it, of TO members? What was actually done?
23 A. Do you mean before the attack?
24 Q. Yes. What did you, in Kozarac, in the Kozarac region, try and do?
25 A. We tried to have all the weapons available no matter if those were
Page 4656
1 TO weapons, police weapons, handmade weapons or illegally purchased
2 weapons. We tried to organise all of this through the TO. Formally
3 speaking, the TO could always be extended, if necessary. So we began this
4 process. It was completed, in part, at least as far as the administrative
5 part was concerned, before the attack. But the deployment of units was
6 never completed before the attack.
7 Q. Now, in order to establish -- now, I'm sorry, I'll go back one
8 rung from there. Were lists kept, first of all, of people who were
9 members of the TO?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what about the weaponry that the TO held? Were there lists
12 available of that, or did lists have to be compiled at the time, that is,
13 between the 15th of May and the end of May?
14 A. I must provide an additional explanation concerning the function
15 of the TO before the war. In each of the local communes, the TO was
16 pursuant to past laws, it had a limited, usually very small, number of
17 members. You knew exactly who the members were and who would sign for the
18 weapons if necessary. After the general mobilisation was proclaimed by
19 the Autonomous Region of Krajina, we were facing a situation where our TO
20 had to be enlarged. We did not have any records, and I know that people
21 went searching through the local communes, the lists of voters, records of
22 the census. We tried to have these records updated to suit the needs of
23 the TO. The local authorities made another very important decision.
24 Regardless of the legal right of the TO to mobilise people regardless of
25 their will, we made a decision to enlarge the TO on a voluntary basis
Page 4657
1 only. We said that each and every one of the citizens should be visited
2 in person, regardless of their nationality, those who had remained in this
3 isolated area, and that they should then agree or disagree to become
4 members of the TO. And in case the person agreed, they should sign the
5 document to the effect. And as far as these persons had any weapons, the
6 weapons, too, should be recorded beside the name.
7 Those who did not want to join or were not able to join simply
8 didn't sign. And later on, they were not regarded as members of this
9 enlarged TO body. Some of the activities that I'm talking about were
10 completed in the month of May before the attack, which means that records
11 had been drawn up for the needs of the TO. Some of them were shown to a
12 number of individuals who then signed them. We recorded the existing
13 weapons and the persons who owned these weapons, and we started to assign
14 those who had agreed to join to certain units. But this was only the
15 beginning, and there was no time to complete this process. So a number of
16 units only existed on paper, and they never really existed in practice
17 because there wasn't enough time to set them up.
18 MS. KORNER: I'm now going to show the witness a couple of
19 documents in relation to this. So that may be a convenient time.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But we shouldn't forget. There was tendered a
21 map at the beginning of this session. Any objections as regards the map?
22 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then this map is admitted into evidence as S142.
24 And the trial stands adjourned until 3.25.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.03 p.m.
Page 4658
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Page 4659
1 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.
3 And please proceed. Thank you.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we've just handed out the new copies of
5 S140.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
7 MS. KORNER: Right.
8 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, I'd now like you to look, please, at a document in
9 respect of the matters you've been discussing with the TO in Kozarac.
10 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honours will have the document in front
11 of you, if the witness could be handed -- it hasn't got a number at all at
12 the moment. It wasn't part of the 65 ter list.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it accepted by the Defence to introduce these
14 documents? Did you have it before?
15 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. We have received those
16 documents, Your Honour, prior.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
18 MS. KORNER: Can I tell Your Honour, this is part of many similar
19 documents, originally, in fact, produced by the Defence in the Tadic case
20 to this witness. I'm only putting it in following Your Honours'
21 guidelines, the ones I think of particular relevance, but the Defence, of
22 course, if they want to put in others have that opportunity.
23 Q. First of all, Mr. Sejmenovic, I know you've seen these documents
24 before. Can you tell us, please, what this document is, and then we'll
25 read the top bit.
Page 4660
1 A. This is the document that I spoke about before the break. The
2 heading reads: "Territorial Defence staff, Kozarac." And on the
3 right-hand side: "Trnopolje Cesta," meaning the road that is a part of
4 Trnopolje which is called Cesta. It is actually the hamlet of Cesta. And
5 then you have a list of names with signatures placed next to these names
6 which means that they had put themselves at the disposal of the
7 Territorial Defence. From this we can see that some of them had weapons,
8 but the majority didn't. So that is mentioned next to the signature, the
9 fact that the person in question possessed some kind of weapon.
10 Q. Can we see over the beginning part which says: "Territorial
11 Defence staff Kozarac," there appears to be a stamp of some kind across
12 those words.
13 A. Yes. The stamp reads: "Territorial Defence, Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina; Territorial Defence staff, Kozarac."
15 Q. Was that an official stamp?
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. Can we go to the last page of the document for a moment, please.
18 And can we see there number 106, your name?
19 A. Yes. Number 106, my name and my signature.
20 Q. And there's a blank by your name. Did you actually have a weapon?
21 A. No, I didn't. If I did, it would be mentioned here, the fact that
22 I had the weapon and what kind.
23 Q. Perhaps while we're on that page, some people apparently who
24 signed did have weapons. Can we go to the -- from the top -- reading from
25 the top downwards, Number 74, I think. Can you just read out what he had,
Page 4661
1 and we'll get the translation. Or it may be obvious.
2 A. The person listed under Number 74, Samir Cuskic had a pistol,
3 which fact is written, mentioned next to his name.
4 Q. Number 83.
5 A. Number 83, small calibre gun. It is a rifle, a sports rifle, not
6 really a military weapon. It uses small-calibre ammunition. Actually, I
7 don't know what the real purpose of this weapon is, but I know that it is
8 not commonly used by the military.
9 Q. Number 86, against that name, something seems to have been
10 written.
11 A. 86, hunting rifle.
12 Q. And that the same for number 87?
13 A. Yes. Under 87, we also have the hunting rifle.
14 Q. Number 88.
15 A. 88, an automatic rifle. It's an abbreviation, AP, which is the
16 usual acronym for an automatic rifle.
17 Q. Numbers 91 and 94 we can see had pistols. What's written by
18 numbers 95 and 6?
19 A. Also a pistol. Under 95 and 96, we read the names of Dzemal
20 Hodzic and Dervis Hodzic, they did not sign the list which means that they
21 did not make themselves available to the TO. Next to these two empty
22 spaces, you can see that they did not sign the list. I don't know what
23 the reason for this was. Maybe they were not found at home, but my
24 assumption would be that they were at home but that they did not accept to
25 sign the list. However, next to Dervis Hodzic's name, it is mentioned
Page 4662
1 that he possessed a carbine and a hunting rifle. A carbine is also
2 considered to be a hunting weapon. This person was a hunter.
3 Q. Number 98 had a pistol. And Number 101, Saric, what did he have?
4 A. Vjeko Saric had a pistol. 7.65 calibre.
5 Q. Can you remember roughly when you sign your name against this
6 list?
7 A. I was asked this question in the Tadic and Kovacevic cases by the
8 Court. I think that it was sometime in mid-May. Either immediately after
9 the meeting with the SDS in Prijedor or thereabouts. I'm sure that it was
10 in the month of May, more probably in the latter half of the month of May.
11 Q. And who was taking these lists round? Were people going to
12 individuals homes armed with this list, or were people asked to go into
13 the TO headquarters?
14 A. These lists were based on various records that I spoke about at
15 the Territorial Defence staff, and every individual had to be asked
16 personally whether they agreed or not. So these lists were made according
17 to the local territorial staff records. And then younger members were
18 tasked with going around people's houses and asked them whether they
19 wanted to join the TO or not and whether they had any weapons.
20 Q. Can we just, then, briefly look at the previous page, just to look
21 at the weaponry. We see pistols, and then against Number 61, we know
22 weaponry, what's written there?
23 A. 61, we read "not found at home." So probably the person who went
24 to his home did not find him, and that is why they wrote this on the list,
25 "not found at home." The same can be found at Number 66 in respect of
Page 4663
1 Mr. Pavle Bitinski, not found at home, which means that when these guys
2 went to his home, they did not find him there, and that's why this space
3 is empty.
4 Q. And number 67, who was at home apparently, what sort of weapon did
5 he have?
6 A. 67, MK-50, a rifle. It is also an abbreviation which means a
7 small-calibre rifle, the weapon that I described a moment ago.
8 Q. And then finally the first page of this document, just to see if
9 there are any weapons we haven't looked at before, Number 23, he had a --
10 A. Number 23 on page 1, we read M-48, and TO-MZ in brackets, which
11 means that the individual had an M-48 rifle, which is an old rifle from ^^
12 the Second World War. The Second World War, and the mention here in
13 parenthesis is that it belonged to the local commune, to the Territorial
14 Defence organisation of the local commune. This is one of the weapons
15 that I mentioned was in the possession of the TO and the local commune
16 before the war.
17 Under Item 24, we read Said Sivac, and the abbreviation PAP, a
18 semi-automatic rifle, and then in parenthesis, reserve police force, also
19 in accordance with the situation as it was before the war.
20 25, again, M-48, Territorial Defence, Bosnia and Herzegovina. 26,
21 also M-48, Territorial Defence commune, and so on and so forth. I
22 mentioned yesterday that the majority of these weapons consisted of M-48
23 rifles and a smaller of semi-automatic rifles as this one here, PAP.
24 And a very small number of automatic rifles. But this list
25 adequately reflects the situation as it was. All of these weapons are
Page 4664
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Page 4665
1 listed here.
2 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honours, unless there's an objection, may
3 that be admitted as Exhibit S --
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Unfortunately, we have no knowledge of the
5 language, and we have to apologise for this. In order to avoid an
6 additional translation, could the witness please be so kind and identify
7 also the headlines on the two other pages, or the bottom lines.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the heading on the
9 second page reads as follows: "Territorial Defence, BH" and underneath,
10 "Territorial Defence staff, Kozarac." There is a stamp which reads:
11 "Territorial Defence Bosnia and Herzegovina, Territorial Defence staff
12 Kozarac." It's just that the stamp uses the abbreviations STO and TO. We
13 read the same on the third page, but not in the heading. It's on the
14 bottom of the page: "Territorial Defence staff Kozarac," and then the
15 stamp underneath: "Territorial Defence, Bosnia and Herzegovina,
16 Territorial Defence staff, Kozarac."
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you very much. Could you please in
18 addition, having testified on this document, as I understand, already
19 several times, why a distinction is made on the headings of page 1 and
20 page 2, and page 3 have no heading at all?
21 Only if you know, of course.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a list
23 consisting of numbers and names. The list extends over three pages, and
24 the last number on page 3 is 106. It is just one and the same list of
25 persons consisting of three pages. This is the list of persons living in
Page 4666
1 the neighbourhood of Cesta, or the immediate vicinity of the neighbourhood
2 of Cesta.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As we could already read in the headline on page
4 2. The question was only why this different headlines on the three pages,
5 but I understand that, for good reason, you can't give any explanation.
6 Objections against the admission into evidence?
7 MR. OSTOJIC: In light of the fact that the witness has clarified
8 that this is a limited list from a town of Cesta in Trnopolje and not
9 Kozarac, as initially, I think, led by the OTP, we have no objection to
10 that, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as S143B. The
12 explanation to be found on the transcripts of 13th of June, page 85
13 following.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say, if I give the impression that
15 was Kozarac, it was quite obvious it was Trnopolje, and we are in
16 possession as the Defence know of a huge number of other lists from other
17 areas of Kozarac.
18 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, could you look now, please, at two sample other
19 documents that are connected with this, and just tell us what they are.
20 I'm afraid that the copies are bad.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour should have them. They weren't part,
22 again, of the 65 ter submissions. They are sort of receipt-type things,
23 and the witness could be shown them. The originals, such as they are, in
24 our possession are photocopies.
25 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, could you tell the Court what these particular
Page 4667
1 documents are, of which these are a sample?
2 A. This is an invitation to the members of the Territorial Defence to
3 respond to the general mobilisation order concerning members of the
4 Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the name of the TO member
5 is mentioned, and the individual in question is placing himself -- is
6 making himself available to the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina. We have the same stamp: "Territorial Defence Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina, Territorial Defence staff Kozarac."
9 Q. Just pause for a moment, Mr. Sejmenovic. Can you, if necessary, I
10 hadn't quite appreciated that these copies are quite so bad. We can show
11 you another one. Can you read so that there is a translation, although,
12 in fact, I note we have got a rough translation which we don't think we've
13 handed in, what does the heading say?
14 A. The heading reads as follows: "Territorial Defence of the
15 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kozarac Territorial Defence staff."
16 This Territorial Defence staff covered the area which comprised Trnopolje,
17 Kamicani, and other neighbouring villages of the town of Kozarac. There
18 is a stamp of the BH Territorial Defence and Kozarac Territorial Defence
19 staff below the text. There is also a handwritten remark. "Nije
20 Obavezan" which means "not obliged".
21 Q. Can you just read the printed text, if you can; if not, I'll
22 simply hand you a -- we have one version which is somewhat better?
23 A. The typed text is quite clear. The title is "callup on general
24 mobilisation of the Kozarac local commune addressed to the member of the
25 BH TO, and then we have the name of the individual in question, Sakib
Page 4668
1 Heganovic. Failure to respond to this call shall result -- shall entail
2 criminal responsibility pursuant to the law of the Republic of Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina."
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just for clarification, you read out the
5 document bearing the name of a Mr. Heganovic. Right?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Opposed to this, can you identify the
8 distinction to the other document with the name of Hodzic, where
9 apparently before the word "Kozarac" in the first line, there is no MZ.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The heading also includes the
11 abbreviation "Territorial Defence staff, Kozarac." And in the upper left
12 corner, we read: "Territorial Defence of the Republic of Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina" and underneath: "Territorial Defence staff in Kozarac."
14 It's not a perfect copy, but it's still legible, at least the one that I
15 have.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. But my question was if you can compare
17 the beginning of the first entire line of the two documents before us, the
18 first -- the fourth word in the first document, Heganovic reads "MZ" and
19 in the other document only "Kozarac." Is it correct, or is it just a
20 problem of copy?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same abbreviation can be found
22 here as well. I agree it's not fully legible, but I think it's clear
23 enough, the abbreviation "MZ" can also be found on the other copy, the one
24 that I have in front of me unlike the first document, the remark
25 handwritten on the document is different. It says: "Did not want to
Page 4669
1 receive the callup."
2 MS. KORNER: Right.
3 Q. Let's take this if we may if stages.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I say, we have a number different
5 versions. They all have MZ on them. It's just that this is a terrible
6 copy, I'm afraid.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
8 MS. KORNER:
9 Q. Can we just make absolutely clear, in the Hodzic callup paper, the
10 -- what has been written on that, can you just tell us again?
11 A. The document here says that he refused to receive the callup
12 paper. This text is handwritten. Above this remark, we read:
13 "Trnopolje - Elezi" which means that the callup concerned the area of
14 Elezi, actually the hamlet of Elezi which was part of the area of
15 Trnopolje. But it still belonged to the Kozarac Territorial Defence staff
16 in terms of command structure.
17 Q. All right. And on the Beganovic, it looks like Heganovic, but I
18 think you said it was Beganovic, what's written?
19 A. You mean the added text?
20 Q. Yes. The handwriting.
21 A. "Not obliged" and then there is a signature probably belonging to
22 the person who took the callup paper to this individual and who then made
23 this remark. The words --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' remark, the words "not obliged"
25 could be interpreted as "not a conscript." But we don't know without the
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Page 4671
1 context.
2 MS. KORNER: Okay. Thank you.
3 Q. Well, maybe you can help. Mr. Sejmenovic, the interpretation has
4 been given to us as either "not obliged" or "not a conscript." What do
5 you understand that wording to mean?
6 A. It can be interpreted as follows: Not liable for military
7 service.
8 Q. And these documents, were they sent out after the list that we've
9 seen was compiled or before?
10 A. I think that they were sent out after the list had been compiled,
11 but I don't think that it was sent to all of the individuals whose names
12 are in the list, because there was no time for that.
13 Q. Yes.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, unless there's any other aspect you'd
15 like me to take the witness through, may I ask that those be admitted.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?
17 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the document with the name of "Heganovic,"
19 or "Beganovic," we know what it's about, is admitted as S144B. And the
20 other one with Hodzic, S145B. Translation is not necessary due to the
21 fact that we have the necessary references on today's, the 13th of June,
22 transcript, page 90 and following. Thank you.
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. I think you told us more or less, Mr. Sejmenovic, but how far did
25 any organisation of the TO get before the attack took place on the Kozarac
Page 4672
1 area, in the Kozarac area at the end of May?
2 A. We were only able to do very few things, more specifically, the TO
3 staff only managed to set up certain units in part. And these units were
4 only deployed in certain places, a number of places around Kozarac, not in
5 all places around Kozarac, and especially not in the direction of Omarska,
6 Trnov Gaj, and the Serb areas, Petkovici, Sajaci, Petrov Gaj and so on.
7 Q. You told us right at the beginning of your testimony on this
8 aspect of the case that the discussion that took place at the meeting was
9 how to mount a defence. Was there any intention raised at that meeting or
10 afterwards to mount an offensive against the Serbs?
11 A. No, never. It was even pointless to entertain such ideas
12 considering the weapons that we had and the tanks, Howitzers and mortars
13 that we were up against and that surrounded us. Also, in view of the fact
14 that our physical communication was cut off to any other area into which
15 we could potentially evacuate the population.
16 Q. All right. I want to move now to the first of those attacks. How
17 did the attacks begin?
18 A. The attacks began after an incident that occurred in a different
19 part of Prijedor. I was then in the Kozarac area, more specifically in
20 Trnopolje. An incident occurred. There was shooting either in Hambarine
21 or along the road between Prijedor and Hambarine. At the local commune
22 building, we heard conversations by the army and the police through radio
23 set. And soon afterwards, that part of Prijedor was shelled. We did not
24 have any insight into what exactly was happening there, but we learned
25 that at the same time, an ultimatum was repeated to the TO in Kozarac and
Page 4673
1 that another deadline was given several hours, that a number of people
2 were to be sent again to negotiate the surrender of weapons. But also
3 that team failed to return from Prijedor.
4 And we know that on the following day, so perhaps within 48 hours
5 of the event, artillery fire started against Kozarac and its surroundings.
6 Q. Before the artillery fire began on Kozarac and its surroundings,
7 did you or anyone else, to your knowledge, attempt to negotiate or do
8 anything with the Serbs?
9 A. I didn't. Someone else did. The Kozarac TO, we had an open
10 telephone line with the majors down there, with Zeljaja, with Miskovic,
11 and probably also with Simo Drljaca, although I'm not sure. As far as I
12 can remember, it was the police commander in Kozarac called Osme or Osman
13 who talked to them. And I know that he and a number of other people went
14 to have negotiations with them on the modalities for the weapons to be
15 returned, to determine points at which weapons will be collected, how
16 these weapons will be delivered. They went there, but they never came
17 back. They were kept there, and it turned out later on that they had been
18 killed.
19 Q. All right. When did the attack on Kozarac actually begin?
20 A. The attack on Kozarac began, I think, about the 24th of May. I
21 know that it began about 11.00 a.m., and that it came from all directions.
22 Q. Where were you when the attack began?
23 A. I was in Trnopolje at that time, close to the local commune
24 building.
25 Q. And at what stage did you become aware of the attack itself,
Page 4674
1 immediately it began?
2 A. As soon as it began, as soon as the shelling began, it was obvious
3 that fire had been opened, and that the threats were beginning to be
4 carried out. Kozarac is not very far from Trnopolje, perhaps 4 kilometres
5 of air distance, up to 4 and a half.
6 Q. All right. I think it may be at this stage that you have in front
7 of you the map that's already been exhibited.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 142?
9 MS. KORNER: Not the one today, Your Honour. It's the one that we
10 exhibited earlier on. Your Honour, I'm going to be told what number it
11 is. It hasn't been exhibited. I thought had already been exhibited.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Provisional S146.
13 May I ask the Defence, you have this map?
14 MR. OSTOJIC: We do. They did provide it to us, Your Honour, yes.
15 MS. KORNER: We can give the Defence temporarily another copy if
16 they can't find theirs. And we have it now on the ELMO.
17 Q. We can see there Kozarac is marked, and Trnopolje -- you're
18 indicating.
19 A. What I'm pointing at here, that's Kozarac and the surrounding
20 area. This is Trnopolje and its surroundings -- with the surrounding
21 villages belonging to the area.
22 Q. At the same time, Mr. Sejmenovic, I'm going to ask you to look at
23 some overhead photographs, aerial photographs I should say, that were
24 taken, in fact, last year.
25 MS. KORNER: And I'm told everyone has them, Your Honour, but it
Page 4675
1 makes them clearer, I think. I'll read the number. The number of the
2 first one I'm going to ask the witness to look at is 01002426.
3 I can hand -- we have got a spare copy for the witness. Your
4 Honour, I should add, these were taken in the year 2000, and I'm asked if
5 I can -- I gather the photographs are all part of the same exhibit, S15.
6 So perhaps we could make that --
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If the registry could assist me, the new number,
8 the next number within the bundle of S15.
9 THE REGISTRAR: This will be S15-35.
10 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
11 Q. Now, can you indicate, Mr. Sejmenovic, firstly the centre of the
12 picture, what's that, the photograph?
13 A. The centre of the photograph where I'm pointing now, that's the
14 Kozarac area. This is the town of Kozarac. And this is the wider Kozarac
15 area. This is looking from the Kozara Mount. At the far right end, you
16 can see a section of the town of Prijedor. And on the left-hand side, you
17 can see the road to Trnopolje. What I'm pointing at now is the Trnopolje
18 area.
19 Q. If -- so, can we just -- is that the road we can see running from
20 where you indicated Prijedor along, and if you just trace it so that
21 everybody can see the Prijedor Road.
22 A. Yes, I can. I'm tracing it now. This is the Prijedor/Banja Luka
23 Road. So it goes from Prijedor, and I'm tracing it now, passing through
24 Kozarac in part, continuing on towards Omarska, and then on to Banja Luka.
25 Q. All right. And so if you were coming from Prijedor, in order to
Page 4676
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Page 4677
1 get into the, as it were, the main street -- I know that's a horrible
2 Americanism, but the main part of the town -- would you turn left at the
3 sort of crossroads we can just make out?
4 A. If you approach Kozarac this way on your way into the town, you
5 turn left coming from Prijedor. Coming from Banja Luka, you turn right to
6 get into Kozarac.
7 Q. And then we can see, as you've indicated, Trnopolje over on the
8 left -- top left of the photograph.
9 A. The road to Trnopolje, I'm tracing it now with the pointer. And
10 here it reaches Trnopolje itself.
11 MS. KORNER: It may be, Your Honour, it's worth looking at one
12 more photograph. Could the witness be handed photograph number 01002428.
13 Again, we have a spare copy if perhaps the witness can...
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the record, S15-36.
15 MS. KORNER:
16 Q. Now -- yes, if you tell us what we're looking at now.
17 A. Your Honour, this is a photograph of the same place but looking
18 from the opposite direction. This is from the direction of Trnopolje. The
19 photo comprises the Kozarac area, and the town of Prijedor. And the
20 photograph we had before was taken from the opposite end. The road that I
21 showed on the previous photograph can be seen here clearly. I'm tracing
22 it now. And the Kozarac/Trnopolje Road can also be seen clearly. I am
23 tracing it, and then it continues further on.
24 Q. Right. Now, when the attack on Kozarac took place, were you able
25 to see where the artillery was stationed?
Page 4678
1 A. Most of the artillery positions had been observed earlier, as I've
2 already mentioned. You could clearly hear them, and you could hear where
3 artillery fire was coming from. And we had known that there were
4 artillery positions there. That was from the direction of the quarry.
5 It's a bit further off from where I'm pointing at now, from the direction
6 of Benkovac, from the direction of Prijedor, that is, Urije, mortar fire
7 from this direction I'm tracing now. So that's towards Kozarac. Also,
8 artillery fire from the direction of Petrov Gaj and Omarska had been
9 observed, also towards Kozarac.
10 These were the positions observed by either myself or by other
11 eyewitnesses who said they had seen them, they had noticed them. Perhaps
12 there were other positions, too, but I couldn't say anything about it.
13 Sometimes you couldn't distinguish because fire -- shells were coming from
14 all possible directions, and all you can hear all around you was just
15 thunder. Two shells were fired from this direction, from the direction of
16 Ribnjak, Tomasica Hill in the direction of Kozarac. And that's where I'm
17 pointing now, and these shells fell on Trnopolje. And neither Kozarac nor
18 Trnopolje were shelled from this position afterwards. But we had known,
19 since a month at least before the event took place, that there were
20 artillery positions there.
21 Q. Yes. You told us that yesterday, Mr. Sejmenovic. Thank you.
22 MS. KORNER: Unless Your Honours have any questions about the
23 photographs, I'll take them away.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any objections as regards the map and the two
25 photographs?
Page 4679
1 MR. OSTOJIC: No objections, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence, the map S146. The
3 photograph ending with number 2426 as S15-35. The one ending with 2428 as
4 S15-36.
5 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
6 Q. All right. Now, you told us, Mr. Sejmenovic, you were in
7 Trnopolje, and you heard and saw the attack. What did you actually do
8 yourself, after the attack began?
9 A. After the attack began, it was a heavy attack, a very intense
10 attack. There was chaos. Radio communications between the TO staff in
11 Kozarac and the local staff in Trnopolje were cut off. At the same time,
12 the Serbian radio in Prijedor reported that long military convoys were
13 headed for Kozarac from the Prijedor direction down the Prijedor/Trnopolje
14 Road as well as down the Prijedor/Kozara/Trnopolje/Banja Luka Road. As no
15 one had enough fuel to use cars in the local commune, we had run out of
16 fuel. I rode my bike to Kozarac to see what was happening and see what
17 the results of the negotiations were. I managed to just almost reach
18 Kozarac but stopped short, perhaps 3 or 400 metres away from it where
19 shells were falling. That means the petrol station and the crossroads on
20 the road to Kozarac. Everything was on fire. I stayed there for a while,
21 thinking that the shelling may stop. I wanted to enter Kozarac, but the
22 shelling didn't stop, so I just returned by bike to the TO staff. That's
23 where all communication with the staff in Kozarac stopped.
24 Later on, I found out that communications had broken down with the
25 staff in other places, too, and that's when the whole thing began to fall
Page 4680
1 apart.
2 Q. Now, had there been any warning at all, as far as you were aware,
3 through the radio or through loud speakers, megaphones that the town was
4 about to be shelled at that moment?
5 A. From what I know, and from what I've heard, there were some
6 warnings that the army would be passing through there, that the weapons
7 were to be turned in, that the Trnopolje area would be a safety zone, and
8 that people could go there for shelter. However, as far as public
9 announcements, warnings, are concerned, warnings by the army or the Crisis
10 Staff through the radio, no mention was made of shelling or threats of
11 shelling. They only talked about the extremists and about the ultimatum
12 to the extremists to hand in their weapons.
13 Q. Was any opportunity given to the civilian population, that is,
14 nonmembers of the TO, women, old men, over age, or children, that they
15 should leave the area?
16 A. They were given an opportunity, that is, there was an announcement
17 through the radio, but that was only after the shelling had stopped. And
18 the shelling went on continually for 48 hours without interruption, two
19 days and two nights on end. During that time, many, many civilians were
20 killed. The Serbian army gave us no respite for civilians to be evacuated
21 and to withdraw. Some of the civilians were evacuated, but only those
22 living on -- in the fringe areas of the town of Kozarac. The population
23 was evacuated in a very chaotic way. The population above Kozarac
24 withdrew towards Trnopolje, and population was running towards Kozarac
25 from Trnopolje in a convoy. These two convoys met halfway down the road,
Page 4681
1 and I happened to be there.
2 In that period, any sort of traffic or transport was blocked
3 between Kozarac and Trnopolje, in either direction.
4 Q. You've told us that when the shelling began, you got as far as the
5 crossroads, and you could see that houses were on fire. By the time the
6 shelling ended, were you able to see, after the 48 hours you've spoken
7 about, what the level of destruction was?
8 A. The moment I reached Kozarac was about 40 minutes after the
9 shelling had begun. The distance from which I was watching, I could only
10 see smoke everywhere, and I could see houses falling and bursting at the
11 seams. I could not see the full scale of destruction from my position. We
12 could only see for ourselves after two or three days when the infantry got
13 into Kozarac and started burning houses one by one.
14 Q. That's what -- I'm sorry. That's what I asked you. When you
15 finally got into Kozarac, what was the level of destruction that you saw?
16 A. After the shelling had stopped, which was around noon or early
17 afternoon on the second day from the beginning of the shelling, and those
18 who had been wounded, those who survived were evacuated. They withdrew to
19 Trnopolje or to Kozara. But most of the population was concentrated
20 between Trnopolje and Kozarac itself, and I can point this out for you on
21 the map.
22 People slept in this place that they had run to, on the fields, on
23 tractors in case they had enough fuel to start their tractors. There were
24 thousands of people watching the Serbian infantry enter the town from the
25 direction of Prijedor, burning the villages of Mujkanovici and then the
Page 4682
1 village of Kozarusa, and then part of Kozarac from the direction of
2 Kozarusa. They were building house by house, so there was a huge number
3 of houses burning, ablaze at the same time, practically along the whole
4 road approaching Kozarac. The left-hand side on the road was burning in
5 the length of perhaps 1 kilometre.
6 The day after, you could see that it was all singed. It was
7 barren. There was nothing left. Only the smoke. Many people were burned
8 alive in their houses. Some who had managed to escape told us about who
9 was burning the houses. Some were killed on the run; some survived and
10 reached this refuge. And they told us that soldiers would come and throw
11 hand grenades through the window into the houses, and in 5 to 10 minutes,
12 the whole house would just burn down. So this was done by an infantry
13 unit.
14 Q. I'm just going to ask you, Mr. Sejmenovic, because I think Your
15 Honour said you wanted to rise at 4.30 today. Just to look at the map
16 very quickly and indicate to us the area, the map you had before, S146.
17 If we put it on the ELMO. Where you say the people were gathering.
18 A. People gathered in this place here, excuse me. People from the
19 fringe areas, the areas that were not being shelled intensely started out
20 and reached this place that I'm pointing at now. People from Trnopolje
21 started out in the same direction, but from the opposite side, believing
22 that they would be able to reach Kozara and hide in the woods. So these
23 two groups met in this area. Several thousand people, several thousands
24 of people were here in the open, women, children, vehicles. The most
25 intense shelling took place here in this part. Kozarac itself, part of
Page 4683
1 Kamicani, the whole of Kozarusa, and parts of Mujkanovici. The third
2 night, they burned the villages. The infantry walked into the village
3 from here, and around 10.00 in the evening, they reached this part of
4 Kozarac, so they started burning houses in this part, in the late evening
5 hours. And from this position that I'm pointing at now, we could see the
6 soldiers run by the houses and we could see people trying to escape
7 because there was nothing between us, and there was heavy fire in the
8 background. So this whole area that I'm pointing at now was burning. It
9 was ablaze.
10 Q. Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Sejmenovic.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This concludes the 35th day of the Prosecutor's
12 case. And it is for me to express my special thanks to the booths for the
13 extremely hard work of this week. And we'll resume on Monday, quarter to
14 2.00, with the trial. And we'll hear the ongoing examination-in-chief of
15 the witness before us on Monday no later than 3.30.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour said 1.45.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Quarter to 2.00. Quarter to 2.00.
18 MS. KORNER: I thought it was 2.15 Monday. When I said an hour
19 and a half, I know we're not sitting until 2.15.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Wait, we have it before us so there is no
21 uncertainty. Sorry, it was my fault. 2.15, the trial starts. And we
22 continue with the hearing of the witness before us no later than 15.45, as
23 you mentioned before. Right?
24 MS. KORNER: Yes, yes. Thank you very much, Your Honour.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
Page 4684
1 4.33 p.m., to be reconvened on
2 Monday, the 17th day of June, 2002,
3 at 2.15 p.m.
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