1 Tuesday, 25 June 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Would you please call the
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. The appearances, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, assisted by Ruth Karper, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and Mr.
13 John Ostojic for the Defence.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Administrative questions we have to
15 discuss later, I think. As time is of the essence, we have to start
16 immediately with our today witness, Mr. McLeod. Could he please be
17 brought in.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, Mr. McLeod. You can hear me?
20 Yes. Could you please be so kind and give the solemn declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
22 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And, please, be seated.
24 WITNESS: CHARLES MCLEOD
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We may start the examination of this witness in
2 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Examined by Ms. Korner:
4 Q. Mr. McLeod, is your full name Charles George Alexander McLeod?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Mr. McLeod, I think it's right that in 1992, you were working for
7 an organisation called the -- as it was then called, the European
8 Community Monitoring Mission, ECMM?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. I want just before I deal with some of the events that you covered
11 in 1992, just to let the Trial Chamber a little bit about your
12 background. I know you gave it all yesterday or the day before. I think
13 it's right that, after leaving school, you joined the British army and
14 were commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in September of 1982, in what was
15 then the Queen's Regiment?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And did you serve as a platoon commander in Germany and then on a
18 short four-month operational tour in West Belfast, Northern Ireland?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Subsequently, did you go to university, where you read German?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But was still in the territorial army during your university
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And were you promoted whilst at university, and did you rejoin
1 your battalion in 1987?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you then go to Northern Ireland in 1988 for a period of
4 two years?
5 A. I did.
6 Q. And were you a battalion staff officer there and promoted to rank
7 of captain?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I think whilst you were there, you were -- I'm sorry,
10 afterwards, you were awarded the MBE, Member of the Order of the British
11 Empire, for your service in Northern Ireland?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you resign your commission and leave the army at the end of
14 June of 1992?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. And in July, were you appointed to ECMM as a monitor?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In -- just so we can set the background, I think ECMM had had a
19 base in Bosnia until about -- or had a mission in Bosnia until about May
20 of 1992.
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And then as a result of the death of one of its members, it pulled
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. It then, I think, went back in again in August of 1992.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you start making, as it were, overtures to the authorities
3 in the Autonomous Region of Krajina towards the end of August of 1992?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And as a result, did you pay visits to Mr. Radic, the mayor of
6 Banja Luka, beginning on the 20th of August, 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The reason for that being that other members of your team had had
9 previous contacts with Mr. Radic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Around this period, was there a conference, the London Conference,
12 taking place, strangely enough, in London?
13 A. There was.
14 Q. And after that had concluded, was it decided that there would be
15 an international delegation sent to Bosnia with a view to inspecting, in
16 particular, the camps which had recently been brought to the notice of the
17 international public?
18 A. I don't know whether it was a decision of the conference, but
19 certainly at that time, the CSCE decided to send rapporteur missions to
20 identify what was going on.
21 Q. And were you asked to facilitate the particular mission that was
22 headed by Sir John Thompson?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that was planned to take place at the very end of August, the
25 30th and the 31st, in this particular area, the Autonomous Region of
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. And as a result, did you go back and speak to Mr. Radic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then I think the actual mission started on the 30th of August,
6 started by you going to Bosanska Gradiska, where there was a meeting with
7 the mayor of Bosanska Gradiska?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Then did you go to Banja Luka from there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And have a meeting with Mr. Radic and other people there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you subsequently pay a visit to the camp at Manjaca?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then on the following day, did you go to Prijedor?
16 A. We did.
17 Q. And did you have a meeting there with a man who was -- or you
18 described as the mayor of Banja Luka, Mr. Stakic?
19 A. Well, we met Mr. Stakic in Prijedor, as opposed to Banja Luka, but
21 Q. Sorry, did I say Banja Luka? You're quite right. Thank you.
22 Did you keep notes of what was said at the meeting, not word for
23 word, but the essence of what was being talked about?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. And subsequently, did you prepare a report for the head of mission
1 of ECMM?
2 A. I did.
3 Q. I would like you, please, to have your report in front of you.
4 MS. KORNER: If that could be handed up to the witness. I hope
5 Your Honours have been provided with copies of this.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's a report dated 23 August, 1992?
7 MS. KORNER: No, it's a report dated the 3rd of September, 1992.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 1992.
9 MS. KORNER: Referring back to a meeting on the 31st of August.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have several reports here.
11 MS. KORNER: That's right.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for the clarification.
13 MS. KORNER:
14 Q. I think you prepared reports, just so we can deal with that,
15 Mr. McLeod, you prepared reports on each of the meetings and, effectively,
17 A. That's correct.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm told that had the 65 ter number of
20 Q. Mr. McLeod, before we go into the details, can I ask you this:
21 Who was it that you wanted to meet or you were arranging for
22 Sir John Thompson and others to meet? In other words, what function --
23 whatever they were called, whether it was mayor or president of
24 municipality, what were you looking for in the people that you met?
25 A. The intention had been that Sir John would be able to meet the
1 senior civilian and/or indeed, if they were available, military people who
2 were in control of the territory. And so, as far as we were concerned,
3 the meetings had been arranged for him to meet the senior civilian
4 authorities in each of the areas that we went to.
5 Q. And who had made those arrangements? Was it you or somebody else
6 in ECMM?
7 A. It was ECMM that had done it. I can't remember exactly who the
8 individual was who put together the programme.
9 Q. All right. Can we look, please, then at your report. We see in
10 the introduction --
11 MS. KORNER: Can I ask, would Your Honour like me to read out all
12 of it, or can I summarise some?
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It depends. Has the Defence available also a
14 version in B/C/S for the client?
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm told it was.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have to ask.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, we have. Thank you.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. In this case, if the Defence so
19 consents for facilitating the procedure, it seems not to be necessary to
20 read out the entire report. Correct?
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Correct, Your Honour.
22 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
23 Q. We see the introduction which was common to all your reports,
24 stating where you had been. And then you say, in paragraph 2: "On the
25 31st of August, 1992, the team had a meeting with Dr. Stakic, the mayor of
1 Prijedor, followed by a visit to the so-call 'open reception centre' at
2 Trnopolje. I wrote detailed notes on much of what was said during the
3 meetings, and this report on the meeting with Dr. Stakic is based on those
5 Then in paragraph 3, you set out the general points, only
6 reporting in detail what was said, "by the people we met, not our sides."
7 Then you explain that your notes, there may be gaps in it on conversations
8 broken to general chat, and it's not a complete record of what was said.
9 And then you deal with the conversations. "After the
10 introductions, Dr. Stakic spoke." In the first free elections -- I'm
11 sorry. Paragraph 4: "Dr. Stakic: In the first free elections since the
12 Second World War, the Muslim party won the election and were in power for
13 one and-a-half years, and they took the opportunity it gave them to arm
14 the most extreme parts of the Muslim population.
15 "This preparation has reached a culminating point at the end of
16 April, beginning of May, when these armed groups put up barricades and
17 when they started shameful murders of the army of Bosanska Krajina and the
19 "As a result, the army and police cleared the barricades when they
20 left Prijedor on the road to Banja Luka. And as soon as they left the
21 city, the army and police were attacked, and three police and soldiers
22 were killed.
23 "In spite of our invitation to their representatives, religious
24 leaders and well-known citizens, they did not come to talk to us.
25 "And why have I mentioned the religious leaders? We found when we
1 went to search the homes of religious leaders, we found U.S. made
2 shotguns, which in the U.S. are forbidden for hunting.
3 "9: There was fighting and destruction, especially Karasec," as
4 written, though I think we'll see later Mr. McLeod interrupting there that
5 it was Kozarac that he was mentioning. "... a suburb of Prijedor, and
6 several people were captured. We have called them to free the women and
7 children and let them go. They put the women and children in the front
8 lines and followed with their weapons. The police and army accepted these
9 women and children, and put them in buses and took them to safe havens.
10 "In the course of the next few days, army and police captured
11 several thousand people and put them into Trnopolje to protect them from
12 the fighting with the extremists. That is how it was started as a
13 collection centre."
14 Can I pause there for a moment, Mr. McLeod. I know it's a long
15 time ago, but can you remember was this all said, as it were, without
16 interruption, a speech, rather than as the result of questioning?
17 A. I think that these were probably the opening remarks as an
18 explanation which set the scene.
19 Q. Then he spoke about: "With the help of the ICRC, we've
20 transported some of the inmates to -- " Clearly missed where he was
21 saying, "but there are still some left, and we have evacuated those who
22 want to leave this part of the country."
23 Then he said: "We have also Muslims and Croatians in the camp who
24 wish to remain, around 10.000. They have normal identification papers for
25 our police. They are not accused of anything, and most of them are living
1 in their homes but some are in the camp. A minority want to go to
2 Croatia, and a majority want to go to Western Europe."
3 And then he talked about contacts that they had had with UNHCR,
4 the refugee arm of the UN, and said that there was a delegation coming to
5 discuss the future of those who want to go to Europe.
6 Then he said: "We have certainly heard about Omarska, where the
7 people were caught with weapons, where 45 investigators interrogated the
8 prison people. And as a result, 1.300 were transferred to the camp at
9 Manjaca, and others either freed or transferred to the open camp here
10 exclusively because their homes have been destroyed, so they have to go
12 Then he talked about the help of the local Red Cross and
13 international help for food and medicine. And he welcomed the arrival of
14 delegations and hoped that there would be more. And there was appeal for
15 help to evacuate those who wanted to leave and gratitude expressed that
16 there was a mission sent to Croatia because there were Serbs who had been
17 there for a year.
18 Then he was actually asked what specific help he wanted. Were the
19 questions that you noted addressed to him by Sir John or by other people
20 in the delegation, or a mixture?
21 A. I think most of the questions came from Sir John. I think
22 that -- I can't remember in this meeting, but certainly in some of the
23 meetings, the other members of the delegation were also asking questions.
24 Q. He was asked about help he wanted with food and medicine. He said
25 medicine first. Then he was asked what he thought about the long-term
1 future. And he said: "I would like to say that we agree with the results
2 of the London Conference. We see in these documents that have been
3 accepted in London the possibility of ending the war. That makes us all
4 suffer, and because I am the mayor of all citizens, of all citizens of
6 He continued: "Neither Croatian nor Muslims left this territory,
7 nor do we have the intention of kicking them out. There are some who hold
8 appointments in the town and some are in the forces.
9 "The future, however, is not clear because there is no electricity
10 and the war is on. The communal government which has just met had on the
11 agenda food and heating for the winter, and Mr. Kovacevic," as
12 written, "is president of the regional government."
13 And then apparently this gentleman intervened and talked about the
14 problems with feeding and healing all the population, and the problems
15 about electricity, fuel. And then he went on to say: "We are trying to
16 solve our problems as we can, but trying to solve them for all the
18 Then there was more about electricity. And in paragraph
19 25: "The main problem is that the Muslims wage their war with
20 electricity. The result is that no one has electricity, and CSCE can do
21 something about it."
22 And then it was said that the Muslims were waging their war with
23 electricity. There were theories about food corridors, and a complaint
24 that the Croats and Muslims were blockading or they should deblock
25 Banja Luka airport. Then he was asked if the airport was used by the
1 military, and he stated that it was a civilian airport; in wartime, used
2 for military flights.
3 And then Dr. Stakic intervened again and said: "There is equal
4 treatment for all. Some Muslim areas have not been touched by war. We
5 support your ideas about negotiations, and our representative,
6 Mr. Karadzic, is ready to negotiate."
7 And then he you got Mr."?", member of the regional government.
8 Mr. McLeod, why is that? I mean, did you not hear his name or was a name
9 not given?
10 A. A name probably was given. I simply didn't get a note of it as
11 the introductions were being made around the table, I think.
12 Q. But you put "member of the regional government." How did you know
13 that? Is that what was said?
14 A. I think that was my understanding of what his position was, and I
15 was capturing a position even though I can't get a name. It's probably
16 easier sometimes to understand somebody's title being described as opposed
17 to actually getting a note of their name, as it goes around the table
19 Q. He intervened and said, "You said that you could not imagine these
20 three peoples not living together. Was that in Bosnia, Herzegovina, or
21 Yugoslavia?" And there was a reply of "Bosnia-Herzegovina." And then the
22 man from the regional government said there was a lack of information and
23 stated that Bosnia-Herzegovina is the same as Yugoslavia. Europe accepted
24 Slovenia but does not look at 1.5 million Serbs in Bosnia. Europe has
25 recognised Bosnia at the request of its president, who only represents 43
1 of the population. And went on to say that there was only a small part
2 of -- I'm sorry, I better read this. "Europe should know that dealing
3 with Bosnia-Herzegovina, that part of Bosnia is only a small part, and
4 what happened in Yugoslavia happens here."
5 Then: "The Serbs very probably accepted the cohabitation of three
6 communities if it had not been for the declaration, the Islamic
7 declaration, made on the formation of an Islamic state in 1986 and which
8 was incorporated into the political programme."
9 Had you heard about the so-called Islamic declaration before?
10 A. Yes, it was something which was just part of the background.
11 Q. Then it went on to say: "The demographers had made projections
12 that in less than 22 years, the Muslims will be a majority of over 50 per
13 cent and the Serbs, who are the oldest people, have no wish to find
14 themselves in the situation of a minority." And then there was a question
15 or a comment that: "Although the Muslims already had a majority in the
17 And Mr Kovacevic went on. I think he just went back to
18 prisoners. "We have a problem with the exchange of prisoners." And that
19 there was an appeal that in talks with Mr. Izetbegovic the problems of
20 exchange should be dealt with because the Muslim side will not accept
21 exchange of prisoners.
22 "Dr. Stakic: When we proposed the exchange of prisoners of war,
23 we were told that these people were not Muslims. To get Serbs back, they
24 asked for flour and guns, following the law of jihad." And then I think
25 you were shown some Muslim currency but you couldn't take a photocopy
1 because there was no electricity. Or what was said to be Muslim
3 And then the point was made that prisoner of war exchanges were
4 important and they were asked if the people who were exchanged would be
5 allowed back to their original villages. And the regional government
6 gentleman, again, I take it, "Mr. ?" said that "A certain number of
7 prisoners from the camp had been released who were from here and who are
8 still around, but in proposing an exchange, we take a risk because we
9 know, as soon as they go back, they will be mobilised and fight against
10 us. We have already had experience of this."
11 Then Dr. Stakic said: "Kozarac is still not yet a safe place
12 because the extremists still come back and shoot. And yesterday, we had
13 two casualties, and they were killed and set on fire. These groups have
14 withdrawn to the mountain Kozara, and they come into town and do things.
15 And even though we have soldiers and patrols, they cannot solve it.
16 Experts in this sort of thing have come, and they say it could last 6 to
17 12 months. Hitler had 10.000 troops, and in four years, he did not get
18 rid of the fighters there.
19 "When we insist on not calling it a camp, it is because the Serbs
20 from here know very well what a concentration camp is, particularly on the
21 other side."
22 And then there was the regional government man insisting on the
23 idea of an exchange of prisoners of war because quite a few of them, when
24 released, try to go to other countries. And there would be less people
25 leaving Bosnia if there was an orderly exchange of prisoners of war.
1 And at this point, the meeting was brought to a close and ended
2 with Dr. Stakic saying: "We agree fully with what you said. We feel
3 fully part of Europe. We are at a lower level, economically speaking, but
4 we know we cannot enter Europe through war. We thank all the goodwill
5 delegations who come here."
6 I want to come back in a moment to your general impressions and
8 After you'd seen Dr. Stakic, did you go to Trnopolje?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I think that the situation is this, that although you almost
11 certainly wrote a report on what happened there, that has not actually
12 been forwarded or we haven't acquired that. But did you give a
13 description of what you found in Trnopolje in a letter to your father?
14 A. I did.
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we've copied just that part of the
16 letter that relates to the description of Trnopolje. The rest, obviously,
17 is a private letter.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But it's understood that their exists a report
19 on Trnopolje provided by the witness. Is that correct?
20 MS. KORNER: No. I'm sorry, Your Honour, I should explain. We
21 acquired the documents from ECMM themselves. They provided us with what
22 documents they could find in their files, and it's from those documents
23 that Mr. McLeod was seen, so it's the documents first.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just recently, you said that "I think the
25 situation was this, that you almost certainly wrote a report on what
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 happened there. That has not actually been forwarded or we haven't
2 acquired that." So there is a possibility to acquire this document.
4 MS. KORNER: No. Well, ECMM made a search of their files for us.
5 They have not found that particular report.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Thank you for this clarification.
7 MS. KORNER: Perhaps Your Honours -- I don't think you have that
8 yet because Mr. McLeod provided it last week. The Defence do have it.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: We do object to it, Your Honour, if I may, and then
10 give you the basis for the objection if the Court permits.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: First of all, let us see whether we really have
12 this letter.
13 MS. KORNER: You don't, Your Honours. I'm about to hand it up.
14 Your Honour, if it helps my learned friends for the Defence, I'm
15 not asking specifically that it be made an exhibit. It is more of a
16 memory-refreshing document. It's not in the same category of an official
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Probably the compromise can be the witness may
19 read out the part of his letter and then acknowledge that he had written
20 this letter in the past. Then we have it on the transcript.
21 MS. KORNER: We hand you a third copy.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course, we have to hear the objections first
23 of all of the Defence.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, quite frankly, I think it's
25 inappropriate for a witness who purports to be a professional who was sent
1 on a specific mission to Bosnia, who wrote a report about the events that
2 he experienced and saw in Bosnia, and who also kept what he considers
3 detailed or otherwise copious notes of the meetings and his experiences in
4 Bosnia, to have a letter be introduced that he wrote to his father in
5 part. I think it's sufficient that this gentleman has actually prepared a
6 written report, has provided us copies with his copious notes, and can
7 testify based on his recollection of those items. It is in my opinion
8 inappropriate to submit a letter, have the witness to read the letter, and
9 then ask him if it refreshes his recollection. Perhaps this witness has
10 an independent recollection, and until we exhaust that independent
11 recollection, I do not believe it would be appropriate on the basis of law
12 or fact to introduce this document.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. I believe you can better understand
14 my line of questions on the report on Trnopolje. Evidently, if it's not
15 available, this would be the best possible evidence. The second best
16 evidence is, of course, the testimony of the witness before us.
17 Therefore, we invited him. And no doubt, we may first of all ask him to
18 tell us what he himself remembers, but then in addition, I would in a
19 third step like him to read out that what he apparently has written at
20 that time. I believe this is the correct order of introducing that what
21 the witness can tell us.
22 Would you please proceed in this way.
23 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. McLeod, although it was ten years ago, I think you do retain a
25 memory of what Trnopolje was like. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you tell Your Honours what you found when you went there.
3 A. Certainly. So this was a facility that at one point had been a
4 school, and there were school buildings and then what presumably had been
5 the playground or the playing fields bordered on two sides by a road.
6 There were -- there was a sign hanging up in English and Serbian, saying
7 the "open reception centre of Trnopolje." The facility was not surrounded
8 by wire, unlike some of the other facilities that we saw. So it was
9 clearly open. There were very large number of, I think, mostly men in the
10 facility. Most of them seemed to have created for themselves shelters out
11 of bits of plastic or boxes or whatever. The facility was characterised
12 by the apex of the two roads, a machine post with a machine-gun pointing
13 inwards rather than outwards, and we can debate what exactly it was there
14 for. But there were certainly soldiers around the facility, their empty
15 cartridge cases lying on the road at one place. So, obviously, there had
16 been some shooting going on.
17 When we got to the facility, we were able to go and talk to some
18 of the inmates. On that occasion, they were free to come up to us, and so
19 quite rapidly groups of them formed around us to try and find out what was
20 happening, who we were. I was able to, because I speak German reasonably,
21 to converse with some of them in German. I actually conducted an
22 interview for one of the members of the CSCE rapporteur missions, who was
23 a journalist, by translating her questions and getting the answers. And I
24 think that interview appeared in Time afterwards, which was quite amusing,
25 if you like. And fundamentally, the people that we were talking to were
1 saying, "How long are we going to be here?" Because they wanted to know
2 how soon they could get out. They explained the circumstances under which
3 they had ended up in the camp, up to a point, and they said that there
4 were some things they just didn't want to talk about, despite the fact
5 that we were having a relatively private, public conversation. I suppose
6 you could say the conditions there were extremely basic.
7 Q. You told us that the machine-guns were --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry.
10 Q. I just want to get the -- you say there was a machine-gun post
11 with a machine-gun pointing inwards rather than outwards. You say you can
12 debate exactly what it was there for. You were told that this was a -- I
13 think not a camp so much but as a place where people who had nowhere to go
14 were going. What did the machine-gun post suggest to you as an army
15 officer or ex-army officer?
16 A. The fact that there were armed men who were clearly in control of
17 the facility and then a large number of unarmed men who were being held
18 there, suggested that this was a facility where people were being kept.
19 And while certainly they were free to move, to move around, I think that
20 they were being kept there and didn't have a great deal of choice in the
21 matter because there was nowhere else for them to go. And certainly, when
22 we went back later on with the ICRC, they were quite happy to get on buses
23 and then leave. So I think this was somewhere where they were being held
24 pending whatever happened next.
25 MS. KORNER: Then Your Honour, would Your Honour want him to
1 actually read out what he wrote in his letter.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please.
3 MS. KORNER: I wonder if you have been handed a copy yet.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. Mr. McLeod, I think, so that the Judges can hear you read your own
7 letter, could you read it from the paragraph that begins, "I did another
8 map reading job" down to the paragraph that ends: "The white flags on the
10 A. "I did another map reading job to find our way to Trnopolje. And
11 when we arrived, the first thing we saw were the machine-gun posts all
12 pointing into the middle. We also found empty cases on the road. This
13 was an open reception centre, and I took a photo of the sign in English
14 and Serb. It was not clear how many people were in the camp, but guesses
15 ranged from 1600 to 4.000. They all seemed to be men, and they were
16 living in shelters that they had made out of plastic sheets. The most
17 striking difference between Trnopolje and Manjaca was that, in Trnopolje,
18 the men came up to us to find out what was going on. And once we started
19 talking to them, large groups would form to listen.
20 I wandered off first with the man from the health ministry, trying
21 to get him to pose in front of one of the machine-gun posts. Then I
22 wandered off with Lara, Robert Fisk's American wife, and translated an
23 interview for her in German. It should have been in last week's Time, so
24 a trip to the library is called for. The men I spoke to told a similar
25 story to that of the mayor, with a few key differences of detail such as
1 who had been shooting at whom. Once again, they wanted to know what was
2 happening to them. And again, they said that the ICRC were keeping them
3 alive. But they were things that even in this environment they refused to
4 talk about.
5 "We had been told by the mayor that there are also a number of
6 Muslim villages where nothing had happened to the inhabitants. So
7 Sir John asked to visit one. We drove back through Prijedor and around to
8 the other side of the lake to a mixed Serb/Muslim village. The Muslim
9 houses were identifiable by the white flags on the roofs."
10 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Just going back to the paragraph
11 where you translated an interview for Lara, Robert Fisk's American wife.
12 Was Robert Fisk a journalist who was accompanying Sir John's mission?
13 A. Yes, he was.
14 Q. Yes, thank you.
15 Now, during the drive back from Prijedor -- I'm sorry, to
16 Prijedor, did you take some photographs of what you saw?
17 A. On the drive back from Prijedor to Banja Luka, I took some
18 photographs, yes.
19 Q. Prijedor to Banja Luka. In addition to that, I think you've
20 provided for us two photographs which we'll look at, taken at other times
21 but during the relevant period.
22 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honours have all got copies of those
24 Q. Mr. McLeod, I'd like you to have those photographs, and then we'll
25 put them on the ELMO one by one and we'll just describe what they are.
1 They should be in order. Photograph Number 1, is that a photograph taken
2 at a place called -- this one I can't do --
3 A. Turnanj.
4 Q. Turnanj, which is near Karlovac, on the 23rd of July, 1992,
5 showing people entering Croatian territory from Bosnia?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. With an ECMM monitor, who we can see in the foreground of the
9 A. That's right.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But we don't lose control on the exhibit list,
11 do you want to add these photographs to the S15?
12 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, can I -- I think they ought to be
13 separate and go with Mr. McLeod's exhibits. Could I ask that the report
14 that he read out be made Exhibit S161.1?
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The report was not read out. You quoted in part
16 from the report. Do you want to take this report --
17 MS. KORNER: The report of the meeting with Dr. Stakic. I read
18 most of it out.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Because on the transcript it reads "that he read
21 MS. KORNER: Yes, it was me. Could that be made S161.1. Sorry, I
22 gather you haven't been doing points in this Court, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, S166 right now.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, the 92 bis materials which were admitted have
25 been inserted, so now we jump to 166.
1 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Well, Your Honour, I'm in Your
2 Honour's hands. I think the photographs ought to be kept together as a
3 bunch of exhibits.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So let's start -- first of all, objections?
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Not at this time, Your Honour, no.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the report is admitted into evidence under
7 Number S166A, and I understood it is available in B/C/S as well. This
8 goes under S166B. In addition, we have an excerpt of a letter written by
9 the witness, Mr. McLeod.
10 Can you give us a detail: What do you think the date was you
11 wrote this letter to your father?
12 THE WITNESS: It will be within a week of the event, so the -- at
13 some point during the first week in September in 1992.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Thank you for clarification of this. This
15 excerpt and the page you read out on this document, are they paragraphs 1,
16 2, 3, 4, 5, is admitted into evidence as S167. And now we start the
17 number of photographs, starting with S168. It should be included in the
18 list of exhibits that the letter, S167, was read out and is therefore
19 available in French and B/C/S. It was read out --
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there was a B/C/S translation done
21 because it was produced last Friday for the Brdjanin/Talic trial, so there
22 is a B/C/S version of the letter as well.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It is always better to work with Judges that are
24 informed beforehand. We can find the translation at any rate of the
25 French version on the transcript.
1 So then we start with S168-1, that is the photo we have before us.
2 Apparently, no 65 ter number?
3 MS. KORNER: No. These photographs were not part of the 65 ter.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Then we continue in the order.
5 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
6 Could we have the next photograph on the ELMO, please. They are
7 in order.
8 Q. I think that shows -- that photograph was taken, was it, on the
9 main road from Prijedor to Banja Luka travelling in the direction --
10 travelling east in the Kozarac area on the 31st of August?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. The house that we can see standing in that photograph, what did
13 you -- who did you understand that house belonged to, or what ethnicity?
14 A. I infer from the fact that the house appears to be still being
15 lived in and is perfectly intact, that was probably a Serb house with a
16 couple of Muslim houses next to it.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that become S168 -- 7.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no objections. It is admitted.
19 MS. KORNER: S167-2. 168-2. Thank you. And then the third
20 photograph, please, could we have on the ELMO.
21 Q. I think same road and same date, 31st of August. Is that correct?
22 A. That's right.
23 MS. KORNER: 168-3. The next photograph, number 4, please.
24 Q. We can see the -- I'm sorry, that it was taken on the same date on
25 the same road. Is that right?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. I don't know how closely you were able to examine these houses.
3 Mr. McLeod, are you able to say was the destruction the result of
4 apparently shelling or of some other means of destruction?
5 A. By and large, this was something which was typical across all
6 areas where there had been ethnic cleansing. It looked as if the houses
7 had been burnt, which meant that the roofs would collapse as opposed to
8 them being shot at or there being shell fire, in which case there would be
9 quite different sorts of damage. So in some areas, you would see villages
10 which had been clearly fought over, and others, villages that had been
11 ethnically cleansed. And there you would start with having the roofs
12 burnt off and then, in the most extreme cases, the entire house would be
13 entirely flattened.
14 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Then photograph, that was 168-4.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The last two photographs, as there are no
16 objections, are admitted into evidence as 168-3 and 4, and now it follows
18 MS. KORNER: Yes.
19 Q. The fifth photograph, please. Again, was that taken on the road
20 Prijedor to Banja Luka, 31st of August?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Then the sixth photograph, please. That again on the
23 Prijedor/Banja Luka Road, 31st of August?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. And then the last photograph. That, I think, was taken on the 1st
1 of October. And does that show the detainees being released from
2 Trnopolje, accompanied by the ICRC and ECMM monitors actually walking
3 through no-man's land between the Serb and Croatian front lines?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. You were there, Mr. McLeod. What was that walk like?
6 A. Basically very scary because it's a contact line which would
7 normally be closed at dusk and have mines put across the road. We managed
8 to persuade both parties to keep the road open and keep the mines just on
9 the side of the road. So not the sort of thing you would normally want to
11 Q. Yes. Thank you.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may those last photographs also be
13 entered in evidence.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no objections. Therefore, the last
15 photographs are admitted under S168-5 and -6.
16 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Should be 7, I think, altogether.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. The last one, -7.
18 MS. KORNER:
19 Q. Now, finally, Mr. McLeod, I'd like to go back to that report you
20 wrote of the meeting of the 31st of August with Dr. Stakic and look at
21 your general impressions and conclusions, please. Paragraph 41, general
22 impressions: "The version of the events that led to the opening of
23 Trnopolje that we were given by the mayor was in stark contrast to that
24 given by the people we spoke to in the camp."
25 What was the stark contrast, Mr. McLeod, that you recall?
1 A. One version of events was that the Muslim population had risen up
2 and had somehow been attacking the Serbs by sending their women and
3 children out first and then following on with their weapons. And as a
4 result of the ensuing battle, the women and children had been put in one
5 place and the men had then been captured and put into another place. The
6 other version of events was that people had basically been rounded up in
7 their houses, women and children had been taken off in one direction, and
8 the men had been taken off in another direction. But the shooting had
9 been started by the Serbs rather than the Muslims.
10 Q. And I think it follows from that that the first version you gave
11 was that of Dr. Stakic and the second version that of the people you
12 talked to in the camp.
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And then your conclusion: "The authorities insist that they are
15 acting in the best interests of all the people in their area and that they
16 have no desire to get rid of the Muslim population. However, this just
17 does not match what they are actually doing. Against this background, it
18 is very hard to draw conclusions based on what is said.
19 "The conclusion to be drawn from what we have seen is that the
20 Muslim population is not wanted and is being systematically kicked out by
21 whatever method is available."
22 Now, Mr. McLeod, you wrote that after your visits to both Manjaca
23 and Trnopolje and talking to the various politicians. Was that conclusion
24 based on everything that you had seen and all the people you had spoken
25 to, or just on your meeting with Dr. Stakic?
1 A. I think that would then be the conclusion that I was making at the
2 end of two days of meeting a number of politicians and seeing two camps
3 and talking to people in two camps and, indeed, having experienced 9.000
4 people crossing over at Karlovac the month before. So this was a
5 conclusion based on certainly more than just one conversation with one
7 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. McLeod.
8 MS. KORNER: Could you wait there, please.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: During the interrogation, you mentioned several
10 times an article from the Time. Is it planned that the OTP tenders this
11 document which was -- this was given indeed to us?
12 MS. KORNER: That's not Time, Your Honour. That's another
13 newspaper. We don't have the Time article. If we did, we can't find it.
14 I think it's another article.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Once again, the problem that we receive
16 documents with no date, no source, and nothing. But I can see it's a
17 report by Robert Fisk and, therefore, I thought it could be this, just for
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the reason I haven't put it in is
20 because it's an article in a newspaper, and I'm having the witness here.
21 It's not the article he referred to in Time magazine, it's an article by
22 Robert Fisk, and I believe it comes from the Observer.
23 THE WITNESS: Independent.
24 MS. KORNER: The Independent, thank you very much. But the answer
25 is no, I'm not putting it in.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification. Then the
2 trial stands adjourned until 10.40.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.43 a.m.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. May we then turn immediately
6 to the cross-examination, please.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. McLeod.
10 A. Good morning, sir.
11 Q. Sir, my name is John Ostojic, and along with Branko Lukic, we
12 represent Dr. Milomir Stakic. I'm going to ask you a series of questions
13 here today. Although I read your reports and your testimony, I need some
14 clarification on some points. Fair enough?
15 A. Certainly.
16 Q. Because we both speak the same language and in light of the fact
17 that it is being translated in two other languages, at times you may note
18 that I will pause, and I would ask you to pause before giving an answer
19 and I'll try to do the same once you've given us an answer, before I
20 proceed to the next question.
21 A. Certainly.
22 Q. Guidelines.
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Thank you. Briefly, with respect to your background, sir, you
25 told us that you left the British army. Can you tell us why?
1 A. Why or -- why. I was working in Northern Ireland and decided that
2 I would rather be doing something else than continuing in the army. And
3 that was in part because I could see that the issues there were political
4 rather than military, and therefore the way to solve the problem was to
5 take a political course rather than a military course.
6 Q. Would it be fair to say that you had a disagreement, in essence,
7 with Britain's position on certain issues as it related to your duties at
8 that time with Northern Ireland?
9 A. I wouldn't put it as strongly as that, but I could see that the
10 answer was a political one rather than a military one.
11 Q. Focussing our attention here to this case and your mission in
12 August of 1992, can you describe for me, prior to your mission, were you
13 briefed or were you given any preparatory instructions or overview as to
14 the situation in Bosnia, having just recently come from Northern Ireland.
15 A. The ECMM had a briefing pack for new monitors. And I can't
16 remember the exact detail that was in that, but that would certainly have
17 covered the background situation as it then was.
18 Q. Do you still have a copy of that packet that was provided to you
19 during your briefing?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Did anyone provide you with an oral overview of the situation both
22 in Bosnia and Croatia relating to your mission in 1992?
23 A. There was a daily briefing for all monitors in the headquarters
24 and so, on a daily basis, the situation was being updated as far as we
25 were aware, based on our teams around the whole of the former Yugoslavia.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Still at the pre-mission stage, so prior to actually physically
2 going to Bosnia, were you given an oral briefing of the situation in
3 Bosnia and Croatia?
4 A. As I said, on a daily basis, there was a briefing, and therefore
5 the day before we went we would have had the most up-to-date briefing that
6 was available.
7 Q. Can you tell us, if you will, what the goals of the mission were
8 in June of 1992.
9 A. So the aim of the ECMM or the aim of this particular mission with
10 John Thompson?
11 Q. The initial one, immediately when you started the first one in
12 June of 1992.
13 A. Forgive me, sir. The mission of the ECMM as a whole? Or the --
14 because I was going into northern Bosnia in July, so hence my confusion.
16 Q. It's okay. You left the British military in June of 1992?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then you decided to seek other employment, if you will, or
19 different opportunities, if you will. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Different experiences. Right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. From that moment on, when you left and became a member of the
24 ECMM, can you tell me what were the goals that were outlined to you as
25 being part of this mission?
1 A. Certainly. So the basic aim of the ECMM was to attempt to put
2 teams on to both sides of a contact line, to facilitate an understanding
3 of the situation on both sides, and that understanding would be gathered
4 by talking to the political or the military or, in some cases, religious
5 leaders on both sides of a contact line, and then providing an impartial
6 report back up to governments. And going beyond that, to enable the
7 parties on both sides to have a dialogue to suggest a cease-fire and then
8 to start confidence building measures with a two-fold view: Firstly, to
9 provide an impartial report so that governments would know what was going
10 on, and secondly, to try and bring the situation back to normality, I
12 Q. When you say "both sides," sir, can you tell us who they were
13 referring to when they told you "both sides"?
14 A. In each case, I'm referring to both sides of a particular contact
15 line, and so on different occasions, the parties would be either -- any
16 combination of the parties to the conflict.
17 Q. So it would be any combination of the Croats, the Muslims, and the
18 Serbs, depending on the contact line and depending particularly on the
19 mission that you may have been on. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So initially in June and July, the sides that you were trying to
22 meet with, report on, and establish relationships with were whom?
23 A. During the first part of my time with ECMM, I was working across
24 both sides of the, if you like, internal contact line within Croatia
25 between the Serb-controlled UNPA north and Karlovac, so Croatian side.
1 Q. Can you tell us what Karlovac is?
2 A. Certainly. Karlovac is a town within Croatia southwest of Zagreb.
3 Q. Can you tell us if you created a report based on any of the
4 interviews you may have conducted as it related in July of 1992 to --
5 regarding Karlovac?
6 A. I would certainly have written reports on some of the missions
7 that I was involved in during that period.
8 Q. As you sit here, do you have a general recollection of your
9 summary or impression relating to the mission that you took in Karlovac?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you share that with us?
12 A. Certainly. This was a period immediately after a cease-fire had
13 been arranged between the Serbs and the Croats in that part of Croatia.
14 And the ECMM was involved in verifying that heavy weapons had been moved
15 back from the contact line to storage areas. And one of our missions was
16 to ensure that heavy weapons were, in fact, where they were supposed to
18 Going beyond that, we were then also involved in very low level
19 humanitarian activity, attempting to identify pockets of minority
20 population on both sides and making sure that they were there in the first
21 instance. People would say: "I believe that there is somebody living in
22 this area. Can you go and find out?" So we would go and find out if
23 there was still somebody there.
24 Q. Would it be fair to identify that mission in Karlovac as your
25 first mission as a member of the ECMM?
1 A. I think the very first mission I was doing was just straight down
2 south from Zagreb, but fundamentally working in the Karlovac area was the
3 first major piece of work that I was involved in.
4 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that the impressions that you obtained
5 from your experience in Karlovac left a long-lasting effect on you in
6 terms of recollecting the events in Bosnia and Croatia in the summer of
8 A. Certainly, some of them did, yes.
9 Q. Is it fair to say -- strike that. Did the goals of the mission
10 that you just outlined for us moments ago, did they change with respect to
11 your visit in Banja Luka initially on August 20th, 1992?
12 A. No. The aim was still exactly the same, but in order to carry out
13 that mission, we first of all had to get the agreement of the Serbs that
14 we could establish ourselves and operate on the territory that they
15 controlled. So that was the very first step that we were engaged in.
16 Q. And the third mission, if I can identify it as such, was your
17 return back to Banja Luka and your return to Bosanska Gradiska on August
18 30th, 1992. Correct? Those are separate and independent visits that you
20 A. Yeah, that was the third time that I had been down into northern
22 Q. And had the goal changed for this third visit from what it was in
23 the first and second visits?
24 A. Yes. On the third occasion, what we were doing was facilitating a
25 mission by the CSCE rapporteur on the basis that we had the ability to
1 take them into northern Bosnia and, therefore, we were providing, I
2 suppose, a transport service for the rapporteur mission.
3 Q. In fact, isn't it true that your entire role with respect to this
4 third mission was to provide transportation and to perhaps make some
5 introductions, where necessary? Correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, was your goal at any time of any of the missions that we just
8 talked about, was it to investigate?
9 A. On every occasion, my aim was to try and capture my impressions
10 and report, because one of the fundamental objectives of the ECMM was to
11 provide impartial reporting for governments.
12 Q. So did you act in part as an investigator to determine what the
13 true facts were relating to any particular issue?
14 A. I think that the term "investigator" which you're using is perhaps
15 one that I would not have applied to myself. I was a monitor and,
16 therefore, I was observing, as opposed to an investigator carrying out an
17 investigation. I think there would be a subtle difference.
18 Q. Can you share with me what you think your definition of an
19 investigator is.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't think this is relevant. The witness
21 said he regards himself as a monitor.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough, Your Honour.
23 Q. Would you, sir, agree with me that no part of your goal or mission
24 of any of the three missions that you had in July and August of 1992 was
25 to assess blame to any of the parties, whether they be Croatian, Muslim,
1 or Serbian? Would that be fair?
2 A. I would agree that I wasn't trying to apportion blame at all; I
3 was simply trying to see what was going on. Where I detected that people
4 were telling me lies, then I was trying to add as a comment that I thought
5 what was being said was not true.
6 Q. Did you do any independent verification of any of the things that
7 were said to you by the individuals that you purport you interviewed?
8 A. Well, depending on exactly what your point is, then yes, because I
9 met some people and then went and spoke to other people who were
10 describing the same event. So yes.
11 Q. To what extent did you conduct any independent verification or is
12 that the extent of it as you've described it?
13 A. I think you can see in my reports the full extent of the meetings
14 I had and the people that I saw, and the comments based on what I saw at
15 the same time.
16 Q. Help me with this: Do you have any independent recollection of
17 any of the conversations in which you were present with Dr. Stakic, or is
18 it fair to say that the conversations are all reduced to the materials
19 that you brought here with you today?
20 A. Yes, it would be entirely fair to say that the -- apart from the
21 fact that I can remember being at that place in the room, to get any sense
22 of what he was saying, I would refer back, if necessary, to the
23 handwritten note that I was taking as the interpreter was interpreting
24 what he was saying.
25 Q. Would it be also fair to say that Sir John Thompson accompanied
1 you on this trip on August 30th, 1992, but had not accompanied you on the
2 prior trip on August 20th, 1992. Would that be fair?
3 A. That's entirely accurate.
4 Q. On August 20th, we covered that you went to Banja Luka. From
5 August 24th through the 29th, 1992, you returned to Zagreb. Correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then once again, on August 30th, 1992, you returned to
8 Banja Luka. Correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Essentially. And then according to -- at least, from my review of
11 your testimony in prior matters as well as your report, you drove to
12 Bosanska Gradiska, and you met the mayor there. Correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Then you proceeded to drive south to Banja Luka, where you met the
15 mayor there. Correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And later that day, the day before you went to Prijedor, you went
18 to Manjaca. Correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You returned to Banja Luka, and the next morning you drove to
21 Prijedor. Correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And after the meeting that you described for us, it was after that
24 meeting that you proceeded to go to Trnopolje. Correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And on the 31st, you returned to Zagreb, correct, 31st of August,
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us, sir, how much time you spent in Prijedor?
5 A. I suppose we were there for about an hour or two for the meeting,
6 and then I spent most of that afternoon on the edge of the town.
7 Q. What were you doing at the edge of the town? Was that visiting
9 A. No. I had the unfortunate misfortune to end up with a flat tyre,
10 and because we had Sir John with us, we had a satellite telephone with a
11 generator, and the space where the spare tyre would normally have been
12 kept in my vehicle had been taken up by the generator, so I didn't have a
13 spare tyre. And so I guess the local police arranged for us to go to a
14 Vulcaniser, the local term for a puncture repair shop, and they spent many
15 hours fixing the tyre. It took them a lot longer than they thought it
16 would because it was an armoured vehicle and the tyre was probably quite
18 Q. Can you tell me, sir, how much time was spent with the meeting in
19 which you recorded or kept notes on where Dr. Stakic and others were
20 present? How long did that meeting itself take?
21 A. I'm not sure. Are you aware whether I wrote the time down on
22 the... We started at 10.00. I'm not sure what time we finished, but it
23 was probably an hour or hour and a half, I think.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the witness, you're referring now to
25 handwritten notes?
1 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I've gone back to my very original note
2 that I wrote at the time, and I think that there is a typed version of
3 this which is available. This is the very original.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, we've given it. There's a typescript
5 of his original notes. And there's also, if Your Honours want it, a
6 handwritten copy. I'm told you have that as well. If you can read it --
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Apparently not.
8 MS. KORNER: We seem to get this day in, day out, Your Honour.
9 These were given to Your Honour's assistant legal officer, somebody or
10 other, Coralie Colson.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Apparently, we haven't got it. If it's
12 necessary for this clarification, for example, including the hours and
13 times when this was taken. But I take it that it will --
14 MS. KORNER: I mean, may I say it's not something that happens in
15 both courts that I'm in. We hand up the documents in advance so that Your
16 Honours have all these things. So we discover that Your Honours don't get
17 them. So it's easy to hand them out in court. Your Honours, they are
18 available, and we may have a copy of the notes here.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: They are available for the Defence as well,
20 these handwritten notes?
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please proceed.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: There seems to be a start time on the personal
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the counsel.
1 MR. OSTOJIC:
2 Q. Let me start the question again because my microphone was not on.
3 There seems to be an indication of a starting time of the meeting, but no
4 reflection as to how long the meeting lasted. Is that correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you have an independent
7 recollection approximately ten years later that this meeting lasted an
8 hour to an hour and-a-half?
9 A. It was not a very short meeting. There was quite a lot of
10 discussion. So I would imagine an hour -- I mean, it's not a ten-minute
11 meeting, it's not a four-hour meeting, but let's say an hour.
12 Q. That's your best recollection as you sit here ten years later.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In addition to the notes that you've kept and the report that you
16 made September 3rd, 1992, as well as the letter that you shared with us
17 with your father, you also gave a statement to the ICTY on or about March
18 16th, 2000. Correct?
19 A. I don't have a copy of the statement. But if that's when I made
20 the statement, then yes.
21 Q. Do you recall, sir, approximately a year and a half ago, who was
22 at that meeting?
23 A. Ms. Korner was there, and there was I think a French-Canadian
25 Q. Anyone else?
1 A. I can't remember. I don't think so. I think it was the pair of
3 Q. Now, were you asked by Ms. Korner any questions during your
4 interview with her?
5 A. I think that we covered an awful lot of ground, and that was
6 probably done by asking questions and giving answers, yes.
7 Q. Do you remember a discussion between yourself and Ms. Korner and
8 possibly the French-Canadian interviewer or investigator, I think you
9 called him, as to whether you discussed the terms "Crisis Staff" or "war
11 A. I think they may well have asked whether those were terms with
12 which I was familiar. I think the answer would have been "I don't think
14 Q. Is that what you recall?
15 A. Yeah. With no record to go back to, and as a completely impromptu
16 answer, yes, I think so.
17 Q. Do your notes at all reflect any mention with respect to the
18 meeting of August 31st, 1992, "Crisis Staff" or "war presidency" anywhere?
19 A. There was a description of the... They called it "joint staff" or
20 something. I don't think they called it a Crisis Staff, not that I have
21 noted. But they certainly -- do you want me to try and find it, or do you
22 know what the answer is?
23 Q. I couldn't find it so -- but I don't want to give testimony here.
24 If you'd like, I can, but no. It states here, sir, on page of your
25 witness statement with the ERN number 00928879, and I'll read it: "I am
1 familiar with the terms 'Crisis Staff' and/or 'war presidency,' but do not
2 recall an exact example of their use by the Serbs whom I met at that
4 Would that have been accurate, and is it still accurate today,
5 sir, the statement that you gave on March of 2000?
6 A. It sounds as if my memory is quite good, doesn't it?
7 Q. It does.
8 A. So yes.
9 Q. Also, in this statement, you described the conditions of the
10 Trnopolje camp, and you described them in some detail, and you seemingly
11 made a comparative analysis of the camp in Trnopolje and the camps that
12 you visited prior, whether they be in Manjaca, Travnik, Zenica, or during
13 your mission at Karlovac.
14 Let me just make sure that I have this correct, okay.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: And for Your Honours and for the Court and for my
16 learned friend of the OTP, on page 3 of your March 2000 statement, you
17 described Trnopolje as follows: "Trnopolje can be described more akin a
18 refugee camp --" Let me start from the beginning. I tried to do it from
19 memory and I failed. "Trnopolje can be described more akin a refugee camp
20 than a prison because it was not surrounded by barbed wire, and the
21 population was mixed by age and gender."
22 Q. With respect to that sentence, sir, what do you mean, "akin to a
23 refugee camp"?
24 A. So, as I have described, it was another way perhaps to try and
25 give the impression is of a shanty town that has been created out of
1 plastic sheets and boxes and so on. The very stark contrast that was
2 obvious that I have described is that Manjaca, for example, was a camp
3 surrounded by wire, very regimented, obviously a military prison with a
4 commandant who knew exactly what he was doing in terms of the Geneva
5 Conventions. Trnopolje was an open piece of ground with a military
6 presence around it and machine-gun posts, as I have described, but at that
7 point, without a fence around it and without the same extremely strict
8 discipline being imposed on the people being held at the camp.
9 Q. You proceed on page 4 of that statement you gave in March of 2000
10 to describe, on the first full paragraph: "People detained in the
11 so-called "open reception centre of Trnopolje" were able to move freely
12 within the camp."
13 I want to ask you about that. Is that your accurate and correct
14 recollection that the people within Trnopolje were able to move freely
15 within the camp?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And just to go back to your prior thing, when you said it was a
18 mixed age and gender, what do you mean when you say "mixed age and
20 A. What I was saying in the interview was that my impression was that
21 there were men and women and children. Now, that conflicts with the
22 letter I wrote almost immediately afterwards where I'd said it had been
23 almost entirely men or entirely men.
24 Q. We'll get do that in a moment or two. I don't know if it
1 A. It is my opinion now, seeing the two things, or hearing you saying
2 and seeing the other, there's a conflict there.
3 Q. So is it inaccurate that in March of 2000, when you described
4 Trnopolje, you described it as a mixed facility, mixed of gender and age?
5 A. I'm quite clear that on subsequent missions when I went to
6 Trnopolje, there were men and women and children there. Those were on
7 occasions when the ICRC were removing people. And so I'm pretty clear
8 about that. So it may well be that I had confused that visit with the
9 very first visit. I'm sure that the letter I wrote at the time would be a
10 more accurate reflection.
11 Q. Isn't it possible that when you wrote that in the letter to your
12 father, you were actually describing Manjaca where, in fact, there were
13 solely and exclusively men at that camp which you visited less than 12
14 hours prior to visiting Trnopolje?
15 A. No, there's no way I could have been confusing those two.
16 Q. We'll get to that letter in a second. Is it also true as you
17 described that -- in your March 2000 statement, that the people there in
18 essence were: "They were able to speak relatively openly with us"? Is
19 that, sir, a fair recollection and assessment of that which you had with
20 respect to the Trnopolje camp?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It goes on to say: "The facility was obviously under military
23 jurisdiction." Is that also accurate and true today as it was in March of
24 2000, sir?
25 A. As indeed it was at the time, yes.
1 Q. Pardon me?
2 A. As indeed as it was at the time I was standing there, yes.
3 Q. You go on to describe the guards. In the last sentence in that
4 paragraph, you state: "The people were actually living in makeshift
5 shelters." I think you described those makeshift shelters. Correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you gave your statement in March of 2000, did you have your
8 notes and your report with you?
9 A. Yes, I should think so.
10 Q. You talked about that Trnopolje was not surrounded by barbed wire.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. As you sit here, do you recall whether it was or was not
14 surrounded by barbed wire?
15 A. At the time that I was there, there may have been some wire lying
16 around, but it was not surrounded by a wire fence.
17 Q. We're going to get to your report shortly. But finally, with
18 respect to your March 2000 report, on page 4, the second full line which
19 starts with "therefore," it reads as follows: "Therefore, in light of
20 this, what I have been told by the inmates in Manjaca and what I had
21 experienced in Karlovac on the 23rd of July, 1992, Trnopolje contained
22 people who were in the process of being ethnically cleansed. This is what
23 led me to make the conclusion that I drew in paragraph 42 and 43 of the
24 report dated 03-09-92."
25 My question to you, sir: Is it fair that if we are going to take
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 your conclusions and impressions that appear on the report that Ms. Korner
2 shared with us today, that because you rely on what you saw in Manjaca and
3 what you experienced in Karlovac, that in order for us to get a deeper
4 appreciation of those conclusions and impressions, we should look at your
5 reports that you created for Manjaca and Karlovac? Correct?
6 A. That's your view. I have explained what I saw in Manjaca and
7 Karlovac. I guess it's for the Court to decide what they want to know
8 about it.
9 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that the report that you gave in
10 connection with Manjaca is not relevant to your findings or impressions
11 that you record following the end of your mission on August 31st, 1992,
12 which you report about it on the September 3rd, 1992 memo that we
14 A. I think that either you can take every single thing that I did and
15 produce that as evidence or you can accept that I did various things and,
16 as a result of those experiences, I drew some conclusions.
17 Q. With respect to your visit to the Manjaca camp and your meeting
18 with the commandant, what was the date of that report?
19 A. The report or the meeting?
20 Q. The report.
21 A. Sir, that was the dated the 3rd of the 9th, 1992?
22 Q. The same date as the report that you submitted here today as
23 evidence. Correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are there any other written reports that you made on or about
1 September 3rd, 1992?
2 A. There were two reports which I wrote about Manjaca, one describing
3 the meeting with Colonel Popovic, one describing the camp itself. There
4 was a report that I wrote about the meeting with Dr. Stakic; a report
5 that I wrote about the meeting with Radic, who is the mayor of Banja
6 Luka; and a report I wrote about the meeting with the mayor of Bosanska
7 Gradiska. I think it's quite likely that I wrote a report about Trnopolje
8 as well but I certainly didn't keep copies of any of these reports myself.
9 I just have my notebooks, and nobody has been able to produce a copy of a
10 Trnopolje report. So I assume I wrote one, but there isn't one here.
11 Q. If you have those reports from Manjaca and the meeting with the
12 commandant of September 3rd, 1992, do you have those in front of you?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Yes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. With respect to those reports, would you agree with me that the
17 first sections all relate to one another and, in fact, in the other two
18 reports, you also reference Dr. Stakic? Correct?
19 A. The preface to the report sets out that this was a visit which
20 included meetings with a number of people, and to keep life simple, I was
21 reporting each of the meetings as a separate document as well.
22 Q. Then you also have a section for general points, which you shared
23 with us, that this report should not be taken as a complete record of what
24 was said. Do you remember that sentence in your report?
25 A. I was being very careful to say I didn't write down every single
1 word that was said, but I tried to capture as much as I could as it was
2 being interpreted.
3 Q. May I direct your attention to paragraph 3 of your report dated
4 September 3rd, 1992. Are we there?
5 A. I think so.
6 Q. The third section which says "general points," would that
7 generally be like a waiver of some kind that you give or a caveat of some
8 sort, or what is the purpose of that paragraph or those paragraphs in
9 section 3?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel and witnesses please make pauses
11 between question and answer, thank you, for the interpreters.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You don't have the headphones on. Please avoid
14 THE WITNESS: I was simply making clear that the report should not
15 be taken as a complete verbatim record of the meeting in such a way that
16 the transcript of this trial is a complete verbatim record. I was saying
17 here is something which I have produced which reflects most of what was
18 said or, indeed, some of what was said, and is my best effort but is not a
19 perfect record.
20 MR. OSTOJIC:
21 Q. You proceed on page 1 of that report, paragraph 5, to discuss or
22 take notes regarding the introductory remarks made by Dr. Stakic. And he
23 discussed with you the shameful murders of the army of Bosanska Krajina
24 and the police. Do you see that in the last sentence of your report on
25 page 1?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were you, sir, at any time briefed or advised of the situation
3 which led to the events in the Prijedor Municipality, such as, were you
4 advised by anyone that, in fact, on May 2nd, 1992, a police officer was
6 A. I don't think that we had been through a detailed chronology of
7 every single event that had taken place. I think that my colleagues who
8 were with me who had been working in Banja Luka up to that point would
9 probably have had a far better recollection than me of the events leading
10 up to the point when they had certainly left. I think it would then be
11 fair to say that there was a gap in our knowledge of precisely what was
12 going on between then and when we returned as a mission.
13 Q. At that point, sir, did you know what, if anything, Dr. Stakic was
14 referring to, according to your notes, when he discussed the murders of
15 the army and the police?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you, sir, at any time from your colleagues ask to know what
18 references Dr. Stakic was making in connection with these murders?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you at any time, sir, learn from any of your colleagues that
21 in fact there was an incident at a checkpoint in Hambarine on May 22nd,
22 1992, wherein, depending on whose view, one or more soldiers were killed
23 and injured?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were you told, sir, at any time by any of your colleagues or
1 informed by others that on or about May 24th, 1992, there was an attack on
2 a military convoy that was proceeding through the area of Kozarac from
3 Banja Luka towards Prijedor?
4 A. No.
5 Q. If I can direct your attention, sir, to paragraph 15 of your
6 report, which is on the second page. Before we touch upon that
7 paragraph --
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. As you know, we always try to follow
9 what you are saying. And I have paragraph 15 on the page 3. Probably
10 you're discussing a separate document because we have two reports on
11 Manjaca available. You are discussing the one concluding with paragraph
13 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour, I'm referring to his third report
14 of September 3rd, 1992, which is the detailed report in which Mr. McLeod
15 discusses -- relates the discussions that were had between Dr. Stakic,
16 among others. And it is within that report only, I believe, that
17 Dr. Stakic referenced or -- according to Mr. McLeod, referenced the
18 shameful murders of the army in the first page of that report, paragraph
19 number 5.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification. Please
22 MR. OSTOJIC:
23 Q. Can you tell us, sir, according to your notes, I think on the last
24 page of that note, would it be fair to describe that the individuals that
25 you met were actually genuine?
1 A. The very final comment that I wrote, and here I was talking about
2 specifically the policeman who had been escorting me out who were very fed
3 up to have had me overstaying my welcome somewhat because of the flat
4 tyre, so that -- I think it was as they handed over escorts that prompted
5 me to write that comment.
6 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at that note that you made and
7 can you share with us if you say "the individual who escorted us" or "the
8 individual who helped me repair the flat on my tyre" or do you say, in
9 fact, "all individuals that we met are indeed genuine"?
10 A. All right. Well, the -- I don't know if you can see that. So
11 it's almost illegible in my original handwriting, but that says: "As
12 individuals, all these guys are quite genuine."
13 Q. Can you share with me who you were referring to when you made that
14 comment or statement in your notes?
15 A. I think I was prompted to write that because we had just swapped
16 over police escorts, and they were being quite genuine in their attempts
17 to look after me, get rid of me as fast as they could. I had spent the
18 afternoon with a bunch of people working extremely hard trying to fix a
19 very difficult flat tyre.
20 Going beyond that, I think it's fair to say that most of the
21 people whom I met in the former Yugoslavia, as individuals, appeared to be
22 doing their best to do whatever it was that they were doing. What I found
23 very ironic was that sometimes what they were doing struck me as being
24 quite barbaric or wrong, but didn't seem to strike them as such. And I
25 think that characterisation would be fair across most of the parties
1 across most of the former Yugoslavia where I was operating.
2 Q. In the notes that you have, you reference -- according to the
3 typed script that we have, you identify an individual as "boss," b-o-s-s.
4 What does that mean? It's on page 53, if I'm not mistaken.
5 A. I think that's probably John Thompson. It's certainly somebody on
6 our side of the table as opposed to the other side of the table, I think,
7 looking at the context.
8 Q. If you look at the context of your notes and you compare it with
9 your summary of September 3rd, 1992, as to who spoke when, am I wrong that
10 really you were referring to someone that you identify in paragraph number
12 A. Certainly. Well, in that case, since I wrote this report
13 immediately afterwards, I probably had a better recollection at that stage
14 of who was saying what. And therefore, I would imagine that was a senior
15 member on the other side of the table making a comment in response to
16 something that we had been saying.
17 Q. Now, the notes that you took were actually taken contemporaneous
18 with the actual discussions that were being had, whereas your report was
19 three days later. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So just so that I'm clear, does "boss" mean the person who you
22 identify in that paragraph number 29: "Mr. ?, member of the regional
24 A. I think that must be the case.
25 Q. What does it mean to you when you wrote down "boss"? Sorry.
1 A. Somebody who had been identified as a senior member of the team,
2 and it wasn't particularly easy to catch everybody's names.
3 Q. Going back to paragraph 15 on page 2 of your report, if I may, do
4 you recall those words that you state or attribute to Dr. Stakic having
5 been given by Dr. Stakic, or are you solely and exclusively relying on the
6 notes that you have in connection with the discussion of Omarska?
7 A. I would entirely rely on this, and I'm fairly certain that the
8 initial exposition was given by him, and thereafter it broke down. And I
9 was attempting to pick up who the individuals were who were then making
10 other points.
11 Q. You identify that you went to see the mayor of Prijedor, and you
12 subsequently identified that person as being Dr. Stakic. Did you find it
13 odd at that time that here he was a mayor of a town, Prijedor, and he's,
14 in fact, telling you, as you recorded in your notes and as you recorded
15 three days later, September 3rd, 1992, that he would have told you, "We
16 have certainly heard about Omarska," et cetera. Did that strike you as
17 being odd that he had "heard" about it? Or was he being genuine and
18 forthright at that meeting?
19 A. I honestly can't remember what my thought was at the time. Sitting
20 here, it would strike me as being very odd, given that Omarska is just
21 down the road.
22 Q. At any time, sir, did Dr. Stakic tell you that he knew or that he
23 set up Omarska or was involved in any way with Omarska?
24 A. No.
25 Q. At any time, sir, did Dr. Stakic ever tell you that he played any
1 role at all in Omarska?
2 A. No.
3 Q. The only thing that you record in your notes is, in fact, that
4 Dr. Stakic sharing with you that they heard about Omarska. Correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You proceed on page 3, among other things, to have another
7 discussion with Dr. Stakic, and paragraph 20 is what I'd like to direct
8 your attention to, if I may. You quote essentially, or you paraphrase,
9 Dr. Stakic as saying he was in agreement with the London Conference, in
10 essence. Did you prior to your mission have an understanding and
11 appreciation of what the negotiations were, both the content and the
12 results, of the London Conference?
13 A. I'm sure that at that time I would have been aware of the results.
14 Right now, if you ask me to be precise, I can't remember exactly what
15 the outcome was.
16 Q. Did you find it a good thing, a positive thing, or a negative
17 thing that Dr. Stakic would have agreed with the results of the London
19 A. I simply can't remember, I'm afraid.
20 Q. Based on that paragraph, number 20, and according to your notes,
21 would it seem that Dr. Stakic was a proponent of war, or would you be left
22 with the impression that he was one of the people who wanted the war to
24 A. I think that he would have wanted -- this is based on a slightly
25 broader context than just this paragraph.
1 Q. In this paragraph, after that which you've heard.
2 A. He was saying he wanted the war to end, and he was saying that he
3 would have been pleased with my recollection of the result, which would
4 have been that there would be a Serb canton. And part of the process that
5 was going on was to make sure that that would have been a Serb canton with
6 only Serbs living in it. That's not exactly what he was saying, but that
7 is what -- that is what was going on.
8 Q. In fact, it was quite the opposite of what he was saying if he
9 wanted the Serb canton, did you even write in your report: Here's a
10 gentleman who says he -- or I think he wants a Serb canton on one hand,
11 and on the other hand, he's telling me that he's the mayor of all the
12 citizens of Prijedor?
13 A. I think that you'll find that's the conclusion of my report.
14 Q. That's the conclusion of your report as you described on March
15 2000, which includes the impressions that you arrived and the impressions
16 that you were left with from meetings of mayors of different
17 municipalities, including Bosanska Gradiska, including your visit in
18 Manjaca, including your visit in Karlovac on July of 1992, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Let me ask you this: Was that impression that you claim you made
21 on September 3rd, 1992, solely as it relates to Dr. Stakic, or did it also
22 include the other individual mayors that you met, the other military men
23 that you met in Banja Luka and in the other municipalities that you
25 A. It was the impression that I had formed both about what Dr. Stakic
1 was saying and indeed all the people putting across the Serb point of view
2 were saying.
3 Q. So it was a general categorisation, correct? The reason I'm
4 asking you is this, sir, and let's just put it out there: In the other
5 reports, I notice that you don't reach that conclusion. Would I correct,
6 if we only took your report from Manjaca, that as it relates to the people
7 that you met in Manjaca, you didn't reach that conclusion? Would I also
8 be correct, sir, that as it relates to the meetings that you had in
9 Banja Luka, the meetings that you had at Karlovac, the meeting that you
10 had at Bosanska Gradiska, that you did not, since you didn't include it in
11 your report, have that impression of those people?
12 A. I think that by the time that I had finished that two days there,
13 then I would have applied that impression to all of them. Certainly, I
14 had a better view having been inside Manjaca and inside Trnopolje, which
15 is why I think chronologically I would end up reaching that conclusion at
16 the end of the period of writing the reports in chronological order.
17 Q. And that's a rather broad statement that you made, you were
18 painting, for lack of a better phrase, with a rather broad brush at that
19 time; correct? I mean, you're generalising, making broad statements?
20 You're not specifying to whom, if anyone, that comment relates to,
22 A. No, I think that I am saying quite precisely here that what I had
23 heard Mr. Stakic saying -- Dr. Stakic saying - I apologise - was
24 completely at odds with what I was seeing. And I was evidencing the
25 conclusion that I was reaching about it being at odds with the fact that I
1 had seen several other things going on.
2 Q. If I can direct your attention to paragraph 37 of your report on
3 page 5, please. I just want to clarify a point that was read into the
4 record by my learned friend, Ms. Korner. Are you there? Sorry.
5 With respect to that, did you have any background information as
6 to what the comments were relating to when Dr. Stakic having been
7 attributed to saying that "Hitler had 10.000 troops and in four years he
8 could not get rid of the fighters there"? Did you know in essence what
9 Dr. Stakic was referring to?
10 A. I'm not sure at what level of detail you want to go to, but yes,
11 fundamentally, there had been an occupation of Yugoslavia by the Germans
12 and there had been a very strong resistance, and I think he was referring
13 to the resistance probably put up by the Serbs in that part of the world
14 against the Germans.
15 Q. Otherwise known as the Partisans, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In essence, he was trying to describe to you that the terrain that
18 was there, namely, in the Kozara area, was already battle tested and it
19 was impossible, according to his view, to -- in essence, either capture,
20 arrest, or detain all the people because that area has been historically
21 well known as an area that even Hitler's 10.000 troops could not clean
22 out. Correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell me how many people in Trnopolje did you speak with?
25 A. At least two or three individuals and then they -- as members of
1 quite large groups.
2 Q. Now, in your general impressions section, paragraph 41, you state:
3 "The version of the events that led to the opening of Trnopolje that we
4 were given by the mayor was in stark contrast to that given by the people
5 we spoke to in the camp." Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the people you're referring to there were the two or three
8 people that you just mentioned. Correct?
9 A. I spoke to two or three people. I think other members of the team
10 also spoke to people.
11 Q. Who are you referring to in your comment, note, under paragraph
12 41, "general impression"? Is it your general impression, the group's
13 general impression, or someone else's general impression?
14 A. Certainly the impression that I got based on the people that I
15 spoke to leads to this conclusion. I think that I was not alone in
16 reaching that conclusion amongst the other members of the group, but you
17 would have to invite other members of the group to come here and explain
18 to corroborate what I think is -- was their view at the time.
19 Q. You write a letter to your father shortly thereafter in September
20 of 1992, but you share with him quite a different view as to whether or
21 not there was a stark contrast between what the mayor told you and what
22 the people told you. In fact, in the letter to your father, you state as
23 follows: "The men I spoke to told a similar story to that of the mayor,
24 with a few key differences of detail such as who had been shooting at
1 Can you reconcile that for me, sir? Was it in stark contrast or
2 was it as you told your father, that it was a similar story, that the
3 people shared the similar story? How do you think it's funny?
4 A. It most definitely is not a funny subject at all, sir. The issue
5 is your play with words, I think. Allow me to explain. So what you have
6 is a version of events which says the Muslims started shooting at us, they
7 sent the women and children out in front. We had to take the women and
8 children away in buses for their own safety. And then we captured the men
9 and put them into camps, again, largely for their own safety and because
10 they have nowhere to go --
11 Q. Let me interrupt you. Nowhere in your report does it say that
12 Dr. Stakic said, "We captured the men." It says that the military and the
13 police captured the men.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Stop. Can we --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphones, please.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I just wanted to interrupt everybody pressing
17 the priority button. We can't proceed this way. You asked a very, very
18 difficult question, and then you have to give the witness a chance to
19 answer in the full context. He has to explain to the Judges what he wants
20 to say and not to stop where you don't want him.
21 Please. Please continue with the answer. You answered a
22 sentence: "Again, largely for their own safety and because they have
23 nowhere to go." And then the transcript stops, unfortunately. Please
24 proceed with your entire answer.
25 THE WITNESS: Sir, to keep it very simple, you have one version of
1 events which starts with armed Muslim men pushing the women and children
2 in front of them into the arms of the Serbian forces, who take the women
3 and children in buses to somewhere for their safety and then take the
4 armed men somewhere else for their safety, as a very condensed form of one
5 version of events. And the other version of events is very similar
6 because the -- what happens to the women and children is exactly the same.
7 They are separated from the men and they are taken away. And the
8 men are then certainly taken away and put into camps. And I have seen the
9 men in the camps. But the difference is that in this version, the Serbs
10 have come and taken the women and children away, and then taken the men
11 and put them into first one camp and then another camp. And the
12 similarity is that the same events are being reported. The stark
13 difference is that. According to one side -- each side is saying that the
14 other side started it. So that is the stark difference that I refer to.
15 I hope that that's clear.
16 MR. OSTOJIC:
17 Q. When you started giving your answer, Mr. McLeod, you said
18 that I'm trying to play with words or something to that effect. But in
19 fact, you're the one who used the exact same words "stark contrast" in
20 both your September 3rd, 1992 -- or in your 1992 letter. Correct? Those
21 aren't my words. And you're the person who wrote in the letter that you
22 gave to your father that it was "the men" told you a "similar story to
23 that of what the mayor told you." So sir, respectfully, those aren't my
24 words. Those are your words. And I'm merely just trying to seek
25 clarification on that. So it's not a play on words. They are not my
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. Certainly. So one last time so we're quite clear, there is a
3 stark contrast between the two explanations that are given for how the
4 events took place. Events as they are described are broadly similar. But
5 what struck me was that there was a diametrically opposed explanation for
6 the similar events as they are described, and it struck me that the
7 version of events given by the Serbs was simply not credible, based on the
8 events that I could see with my own eyes at the time. I hope that that's
10 Q. In paragraph 42 of your conclusions the last sentence, it
11 states: "Against this background, it is very hard to draw conclusions
12 based on what is said." Can you tell me, sir, what do you mean "against
13 this background"?
14 A. Against the background of a number of people who were saying:
15 "We want to have a multi-ethnic community and we want to be responsible
16 for all parties within this community, and we want to be members of
17 Western Europe and, indeed, we want to be democratic." So these are the
18 statements which have been made by a number of people that I have met by
19 then, including Dr. Stakic, some of them. So they are saying one thing,
20 and what I'm actually seeing on the ground suggests something which is
21 different to that, so that's the background that I'm alluding to.
22 Q. You say these other statements which have been made by a number of
23 people. Are you including in that the people during your visits on August
24 20th and August 30th, 1992, namely, the mayors of these other towns or
25 municipalities as well as the military men you may have interviewed or had
1 discussions with?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So it was against that entire background as a whole, as opposed to
4 based on solely the meeting that you had on August 31st, 1992, in
5 Prijedor. Correct?
6 A. Yes. Dr. Stakic was simply expounding the same view that I had
7 already heard on a number of occasions.
8 Q. Was there an issue, if you recall, during your visits with the
9 people in the Banja Luka and Prijedor area regarding how the Muslims were
10 waging war, in essence, if I can just direct you to it, an issue of
11 electricity and electrical power being cut off. Do you remember that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, is it, sir, that there was hydroelectric generating plants in
15 central Bosnia at the time that were controlled by the Muslims?
16 A. It's my understanding, as opposed to technical precise knowledge,
17 that before the war there had been hydroelectric power which had provided
18 power for large parts of Bosnia, and those were in central Bosnia, and the
19 transmission lines between there and northern Bosnia had been cut. Now,
20 in practice, I don't know whether the hydroelectric plants were still
21 working anyway, but there was no power getting through.
22 Q. Did you, sir, in your notes in trying to prepare an accurate and
23 concise rendition of the facts that you experienced, did you, sir, record
24 anywhere these conversations that you had with members or the people who
25 were detained in Trnopolje camp?
1 A. I didn't write a note at the time, and I think what I captured
2 later on was in my reports and indeed my letters, my recollection of what
3 they had said.
4 Q. I have a note here that on page 20 of today's transcript, line 17
5 through 20, and I ask the registrar and counsel and, obviously, the Court
6 just to double check this, that in connection with your testimony
7 involving the men that you spoke with in Trnopolje, you state: "The men I
8 spoke to told a similar story to that of the mayor." Or thereabouts. I
9 shouldn't maybe put quotes on it. My question to you, sir: What was the
10 similar story that the men who were being detained at Trnopolje, that they
11 were sharing with you, that was similar to what you heard from Dr. Stakic?
12 A. As we have just been through it at some length, they were
13 describing the series of events which led to them being in Trnopolje.
14 Q. Can you tell me, as you sit here, or maybe even in -- you're
15 welcome to look at your notes. Who all was present at the meeting on
16 August 31st, 1992?
17 A. With Dr. Stakic?
18 Q. Correct.
19 A. Dr. Stakic, somebody to write his name down for me, a number of
20 gentleman who were politicians. Shall I go through the notes and identify
21 the ones that I have? That would probably be --
22 Q. First tell me if there were more people present than those who
23 were reflected in your notes.
24 A. Certainly.
25 Q. How many in total?
1 A. I remember that the room was very full, so you probably have about
2 16 or 20 people down two sides of a table.
3 Q. And how many were from the delegation that you were involved in,
4 how many members of those 16 to 20?
5 A. I'd say -- I seem to remember we had more or less equal numbers on
6 both sides of the table. It was --
7 Q. Eight to ten on each side?
8 A. It would be a reasonable guess at this stage.
9 Q. Okay.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: If the Court would be kind enough to instruct the
11 usher to place the pictures on the ELMO, specifically S168-2, I believe.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please do so.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Perhaps I may see the pictures and then I can
14 correct it. Just those two.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could Defence counsel please be so kind and take
16 into account that we have to make a break at 10 minutes past 12.00.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour, I'm hoping to conclude with
18 Mr. McLeod before the -- I thought we were ending today at 12.45, if I'm
19 not mistaken.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We proceed as long as justice requires.
21 MR. OSTOJIC:
22 Q. Sir, directing your attention to the photograph that we see on the
23 ELMO, can you tell us, sir, the date of that photograph?
24 A. I think that's the 23rd of July, 1992.
25 Q. Do you know who was actually leaving Prijedor and going into
1 Croatia, as I think in general was your testimony in describing this
2 photograph? Do you know what the ethnic background of those persons or
3 people were?
4 A. I believe the majority of them were Muslims.
5 Q. Can you tell me, just for the record, the identification number of
6 that picture so that, when we review this later, we won't be confused with
7 other pictures. Is there an indication on the back side?
8 A. This --
9 Q. S168-1. Thank you. With respect to that, sir, are you familiar
10 with the licence plate that appears on that picture, and is it true that
11 the PD on that licence plate is actually a licence plate from the
12 municipality of Prijedor? Correct?
13 A. Well, I can see that the licence plate has a "PD." I'm not
14 familiar with that being a Prijedor licence plate, but I accept that it
15 might be.
16 Q. Are you familiar with what the licence plate was for vehicles that
17 were owned by any of the citizens in Prijedor at or about June or July of
19 A. No.
20 Q. May we have the next picture, please, placed on the ELMO. If you
21 take a look at that picture, sir, it seems to me, but correct me if I am
22 wrong, that there are some wood partitions that are seen on some of the
23 homes that were obviously destroyed. Do you see that?
24 A. Forgive me, I'm not quite sure what you mean by wood partitions,
25 that this structure appears to be wooden?
1 Q. There are some portions within that structure that are wooden. Do
2 you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You earlier testified that the homes, or some of the homes that
5 you took pictures of, seem to have been burned down or sustained some
6 level of fire. Can you describe for me whether you think that the fire
7 caused the hole on the side wall of that building and the fact that, at
8 least on this picture, there is little, if any, evidence of any burn
9 marks. Can you explain that to me?
10 A. I would suggest that that building has been blown up rather than
11 burnt, although as we see in some of the other buildings quite clearly
12 have smoke damage on them.
13 Q. But is it fair to say, sir, that you don't know when those
14 buildings sustained the smoke damage? You didn't see it happen, correct?
15 A. That's quite correct.
16 Q. Of all the pictures that you have, can you tell me whether any of
17 the pictures were from areas in the Prijedor municipality other than the
18 area of Kozarac?
19 A. They were all taken as a series just driving down that one road.
20 Q. It was down one road, in one town, and it didn't include any other
21 roads or any of the other towns such as Puharska or any of the buildings
22 or homes that were on or around the area of the town of Prijedor itself.
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, but we have to make the necessary break.
1 Now the trial stands adjourned until 12.30.
2 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please continue.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. McLeod, a couple questions just for clarification. Earlier we
7 had discussed -- I think you made a comment during an exchange that we had
8 that Dr. Stakic said, "We captured several thousand people." With respect
9 to the "we," isn't it true, sir, that your notes, specifically on the
10 first page, when it discusses "in the course of the next few days," page
11 50 of the typewritten notes -- are you there?
12 A. I'm on page 50, yes.
13 Q. With respect to who captured several thousand people, I think your
14 comment during some of the cross was that you used the word "we," if I'm
15 not mistaken. Just to clear that up, in your notes that you have in front
16 of you, as well as the typewritten version, in fact, Dr. Stakic never
17 says, "We captured several thousand people." He indeed states the army
18 and police captured them. Correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And also on your September 3rd, 1992 report, specifically
21 paragraph 11 of that report, again discussing the issue of who captured
22 whom, a note attributed to Dr. Stakic, he again identifies the people who
23 captured, that would be the army, and as you have it here, the police.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you recall, sir, whether you and Sir Thompson at any time
2 actually drove around Prijedor to see other homes inhabited by Muslims
3 which were not either destroyed by a result of shelling or, as you have
4 stated, being burned down?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And where are those pictures?
7 A. I don't think that I took a photograph of those houses. Other
8 members of the team certainly did and so it ought to be possible to find
9 pictures, but I certainly don't have any with me now.
10 Q. What I'd like to know is that you discussed or you agreed that the
11 pictures you shared with us today were from this one road in Kozarac.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And if you look at your letter that you wrote to your father, you
15 in fact describe the situation wherein and Sir John, I think it's
16 Sir John Thompson, correct? Yes, that you reference?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That you were invited to see the homes of Muslim inhabitants in
19 the mixed villages. In your letter to your father, nowhere do you state
20 that, in fact, those homes in other areas that we viewed were or were not
21 destroyed, burned, or shelled. Correct?
22 A. In the page of the letter that we have here, I don't say that. I
23 can't remember what else is in the letter. Again, we could go and find
24 the original letter, but I don't propose to do that right now.
25 Q. Fair enough. And I only have the page that was summarised for
1 me. So based on that, at the very least, that which purports to be the
2 only items in your letter wherein you discuss your journey to Bosnia
3 during that period?
4 A. I think, as you can see, it's quite a long letter, and I sat down,
5 and as part of my way of trying to deal with what I had seen was just
6 writing down what I had seen and done. I'm fairly sure that I would have
7 described the other village, but I don't have the letter here, I'm afraid.
8 Q. Who has a copy of that letter, to the best of your knowledge?
9 A. I don't know if my father still has a copy of it.
10 Q. Presumably, he would have the original, and you would have
11 retained the copy. Correct?
12 A. Possibly.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: That's all the questions we have, Your Honour, of
14 Mr. McLeod. We would like, though, the record to reflect and we're asking
15 at this time that the reports from the meetings as this witness has
16 stated, we believe, in cross-examination the reports that relate to the
17 general impressions and comments section of his report, namely, the
18 Manjaca meeting with commander as well as the description and a view of
19 the Manjaca camp that Mr. McLeod has, in a separate report, identified.
20 We recognise that Manjaca is not part of this case or this indictment, but
21 we believe that it's relevant in order to keep those general impressions
22 and comments in a context in which the Court and all of us can appreciate.
23 Thank you, sir.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do I understand that the Defence tenders the
25 documents on the mission to Banja Luka, the meeting with commandant of
1 prisoner of war camp Manjaca dated 3 September, 1992 into evidence? You
2 want to tender this, or you want to tender both?
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. In addition, the report that's
4 identified from September 1st, 1992, which is a meeting --
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, not to confuse. We have two reports on
6 Manjaca, both dated 3 September, 1992. You want to have them both
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?
10 MS. KORNER: None, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please help out. It's D12, or already
13 THE REGISTRAR: D14, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the report of 3rd of September, 1992,
15 registration number 00950310, is admitted into evidence under D14.
16 The one from the same date with the number 00950308 is admitted
17 into evidence under D15.
18 What about the other reports the Defence touched upon, first of
19 all, in Banja Luka?
20 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour, we would like that report as well
21 dated September 1st, 1992.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's start in the order of the appearances.
23 The first one is the one from 20 August, 1992, Banja Luka.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may, Your Honour, the report from the Banja
25 Luka --
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I ask you, do you want to tender this?
2 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have to come back to this. The next one,
4 Banja Luka, second visit, 25 August, 1992?
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour, we would.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you please make me understand why you want
7 to have the second visit but not the first visit?
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, because I believe the witness
9 specifically stated that it was his visit and journey from the third trip,
10 which is one that he made in the Prijedor area. So I, quite frankly,
11 perhaps misunderstood the Court. There's a specific report that he made
12 relating to the meeting with the mayor of Banja Luka on August 30th and
13 31st, and it was that meeting and that memo that I was looking at. I
14 think for relevance purposes, based on Mr. McLeod's testimony, at least
15 from our purposes, we would like those meetings vis-a-vis the Banja Luka
16 meeting, Bosanska Gradiska meeting, the Prijedor meeting and the Manjaca
17 meeting, be kept in the context in which I believe the witness testified,
18 because that was a two-day trip. So it's those reports that I would like
19 to be submitted in as evidence.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have to come back to this later then. Now
21 you're referring to the number 00950336, meeting with the mayor of
22 Bosanska Gradiska, being also in the context of this?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Correct, Your Honour. That is the correct minute.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And this document with the 00950336, if there
25 are no objections by the OTP. I can see none. Therefore, admitted into
1 evidence as D16. And the next one, meeting with the mayor of Banja Luka,
2 1st September, 1992, document 00950347, the first page?
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Right, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no objections. Admitted into evidence
5 as D17. Thank you.
6 This concludes the cross-examination?
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the OTP, re-examination?
9 MS. KORNER: No re-examination. Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. McLeod, may I ask you several questions in
13 addition. It starts with a really tiny detail. On page 4 of your report,
14 you said: "At this point, we were shown what was claimed to be Muslim
15 currency. We were unable to take a photocopy because there was no
16 electricity. However, I asked for one."
17 First point: Is it true that during the entire meeting, it was
18 relatively dark in the room, or was there electricity? Was it possible to
19 make photographs in the room, and to come to the point, were there made
20 photographs in this room?
21 A. The room was bright, lots of daylight. I don't remember whether
22 anybody took a photograph in the room. I certainly did not. And I can't
23 remember whether there were lights on. I think it was just daylight.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. But you, yourself, you have no photos
25 available from this meeting. To stay with this really minor detail, you
1 asked for -- as a photocopy or that what was shown to you, Muslim
2 currency. What do we have to understand this term and what was shown to
4 A. They produced a note of currency, so a paper note. They said this
5 is a piece of Muslim currency. It proves that they are trying to
6 establish their own state by having currency as one of the things which a
7 state produces, and this was being produced as evidence that the Muslims
8 were trying to form their own state within Bosnia. And, therefore, we
9 were interested and said, "Can we please have a copy or even an original?"
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you get?
11 A. No.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You said "they." Could you please, before
13 answering, have a look on your handwritten document, coming to this point,
14 and then try to answer the question.
15 A. Could you help me to find the place.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It is called "comment" immediately after number
18 A. Okay, looking at the order in which the text comes, I would
19 imagine, because the person who is speaking immediately before I made that
20 note was Dr. Stakic, it was probably Dr. Stakic who then produced it.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But you have no recollection now that you could
22 say Person A, Person B, or Person C showed me this, as you call it, Muslim
23 currency note?
24 A. I couldn't say specifically which person it was. It was certainly
25 somebody on the Serbian side who said, as proof of his point, "Here is
1 their currency."
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. You were already asked beforehand
3 how many persons were present at this meeting. You came to the meeting.
4 There was an opening speech and some remarks of introductions were made.
5 Who approached first and whom -- these are two different questions. Who
6 spoke first from the other side?
7 A. I'm fairly certain it was Dr. Stakic.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: According to the document, this seems to be
9 correct. And the second question is, after -- following your impression,
10 who was the one who had -- or if several, please, tell us. Who was the
11 one having the say on the other side?
12 A. There were a number of people who were making comments.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Was there --
14 A. A hierarchy?
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: A kind of hierarchy, you had the impression?
16 A. I think, within the government, the most senior person there was a
17 gentleman from Pale, I understand from the health ministry.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The one you quoted as a person wearing a pistol
19 and having a machine pistol in his car. Right?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Which evidently was surprising for you as a
22 representative of the Ministry of Health.
23 A. Indeed.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. And then?
25 A. And then there was clearly -- I inferred that there was then a
1 regional government, and then there was the Prijedor opstina. And so
2 Dr. Stakic was -- he was a civilian representative running Prijedor. And
3 then there was a layer above him and then a layer above that from Pale, I
4 think would be my recollection.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And during this discussion held the 3rd of
6 September, 1992, who was among the persons on the other side, if we speak
7 in these terms? The side of the monitors and on the other side, the
8 representatives of Prijedor, who was after -- following your impression,
9 the most important person on the other side?
10 A. To be quite correct, sir, the meeting was on the 31st of August,
11 not the 3rd of September.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The report.
13 A. Having different levels of control, the gentleman from Pale had
14 previously said that he had it within his ability to write an order
15 authorising the closure of all the camps, so he obviously had some
16 jurisdiction, or he appeared to have some jurisdiction there.
17 Within Prijedor, I think that Dr. Stakic was probably the person
18 who was, along with the military and the police, controlling matters in
19 that opstina.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You mentioned in your report Dr. Stakic, Mr. --
21 as it's shown in the report, a Mr. Kovacic. May it be that this person
22 has the name "Kovacevic," that there was an error committed on your -- on
23 the basis of your perception of the names you got as you got them?
24 A. Quite possibly.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was ever an attempt made to find out who was the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 third person, this "Mr. ?," as we can see it from the document?
2 A. I think that other members of the team may have had a better
3 record than I did of who was sitting around the table. In my case, I was
4 able to -- I will show you. As Dr. Stakic started to talk, I asked - I
5 think it was a gentleman from Pale sitting next to me or certainly
6 somebody who was sitting next to me - to identify who he was, and so they
7 wrote it out for me. And as you can see, they wrote it out first in the
8 Cyrillic script which I can't understand, which is why it was then
9 translated back into ...
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This was not done with this, sorry to put it
11 this way, as we can read it, "Mr. ?"?
12 A. No.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In paragraph 28 of your statement, you state:
14 "We support your ideas about negotiations and our representative,
15 Mr. Karadzic, is ready to negotiate." Is there any doubt that Dr. Stakic
16 called Mr. Karadzic as "our representative"? It was 28.
17 A. Yes, I see the reference in my report, sir. I was wondering if it
18 was worth going back to the original note, but I'm fairly sure that I
19 simply copied from the original into this. I'll go back to the original
20 if you would like me to.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please. It's slightly before the other
22 portion we just mentioned.
23 A. Yes, that is exactly what I wrote. So that is what the
24 interpreter would have said as her translation or his translation, his
25 translation of what was being said. So if we accept that it has been
1 through an interpreter, then that is the note that I wrote at the time.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please, have it still before you
3 because I want to come to one page later, paragraph 37. There Dr. Stakic
4 is quoted as having said: "Kozarac is still not yet a safe place because
5 the extremists still come back and shoot. And yesterday, we had two
6 casualties and they were killed and set on fire." Also, once again with
7 the reservation that it has gone through interpretation only, the
8 word "extremist" was used?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: From your own recollection, could you tell us
11 what was meant or who was meant by "extremist"?
12 A. I think he was referring to Muslim extremists.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Going a few lines ahead under 38: "When we
14 insist on not calling it a camp, it is because the Serbs from here know
15 very well what a concentration camp is, particularly on the other side."
16 No doubt that this was said by Dr. Stakic?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Following once again your recollection, what is
19 the meaning of what a concentration camp is, particularly on the other
20 side? What's the meaning here of "on the other side"?
21 A. I think he could have been referring to either one of two things,
22 sir, either the fact that Serbs had been held in concentration camps
23 during the Second World War, which would have fitted into the context, and
24 then referring to "on the other side," I think he was referring to the
25 fact that a large number of Serbs were being held by the Croats and the
1 Muslims in central Bosnia. So "on the other side" meant on the other side
2 of the internal contact line within Bosnia.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Coming back to paragraph 21, it was said,
4 "Neither Croatian nor Muslims left this territory, nor do we have the
5 intention of kicking them out." Once again following your notes, is this
6 the correct quotation, and why just mentioning Croatian and Muslims?
7 A. What I have written here is: "Neither Croatians or Muslims left
8 this territory, nor do we have the intention -- "
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Neither Croatians or Muslim, yes?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Why this specific mentioning "Croatian or
13 A. I would assume that there had been a mixed population with some
14 Croats living in Prijedor.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was there any dissent amongst the persons giving
16 statements from the other side?
17 A. In terms of them disagreeing with the statements they were making?
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
19 A. No.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So one could, in general, attribute also the
21 comments made by Mr. Kovacevic and the other person, the third person,
22 "Mr. ?," to Dr. Stakic? Dr. Stakic never opposed to what was said by the
23 two other persons you mentioned in your report. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let me now turn to your visit to Manjaca. You
1 prepared two reports, and one is -- stops, the second one admitted into
2 evidence, under paragraph 16, under the heading "reaction of the
3 authorities: The commandant Colonel Popovic was very clear that he wanted
4 us to see everything and report accurately. However, we were not allowed
5 to see everything, and some questions were ignored. He quoted the Geneva
6 Convention to justify all his actions. A separate report is being written
7 on his interpretation of the Geneva Convention."
8 Here it's not necessary to come back to this point because this is
9 attributed to Colonel Popovic, but my point is, was -- in relation to the
10 situation in Prijedor, or possibly Trnopolje, was ever the question raised
11 whether or not the responsible persons obeyed the rules of the Geneva
13 A. I don't think so, and I think that was because people did not
14 consider in the main that these were prisoners of war in the same way that
15 they were considered to be prisoners of war at Manjaca.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So could you -- I know you touched upon this
17 issue slightly. Could you give us, please, your view on the distinction
18 between these two camps?
19 A. From the point of view of what their function was as far as the
20 Serbs were concerned?
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right.
22 A. I think that there was basically very little difference because
23 both of them were places where they were holding Muslim men predominantly,
24 entirely in Manjaca, and predominantly in Trnopolje at that point. I
25 don't know whether they were under different jurisdictions from a control
1 point of view, but both of them appeared to have military people actually
2 running the camps. I think Colonel Popovic was running his camp in a
3 different way to the way that Trnopolje was being managed, but the
4 function was exactly the same.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you remember who was the commander of
6 Trnopolje? Did you speak with or to him?
7 A. I'm sure that when we arrived, we had an explanation from
8 somebody, probably the commander. I don't have a note of his name.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was Trnopolje - the Defence asked already in
10 part this question - or Keraterm or Omarska ever mentioned during the
11 discussions with Dr. Stakic and others?
12 A. I apologise, I don't quite understand the question. So Dr. --
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: During the discussions with Dr. Stakic,
14 Mr. Kovacevic and the third person, was it ever discussed what is the
15 purpose of, say, Trnopolje camp, who is responsible for this? And the
16 same question would be true as regards Keraterm and Omarska.
17 A. I think in terms of Omarska, my note says that he was aware of
18 it. He had heard of it. I think in terms of Trnopolje, he certainly knew
19 all about it because we were going there next and this was facilitated by
20 the people that we were meeting.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you go to this point a little bit more in
22 detail. You just said because we are going there next and this was
23 facilitated by the people that we were meeting. Could you try to find out
24 how this was done, how this was prepared, and who was facilitating this.
25 A. I can't remember exactly who it was who had arranged it. But
1 certainly, we were accompanied throughout our stay for the two-day period
2 by the gentleman from Pale. I think he was probably the common
3 denominator certainly between Manjaca and the meeting with Dr. Stakic and
4 Trnopolje. There was no doubt that we were going straight after the
5 meeting with Dr. Stakic then to see Trnopolje. But I would hate, ten
6 years later, to try and say specifically who it was around the table who
7 went with us, if anybody, other than the gentleman from Pale.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Easily to be understood, no doubt.
9 In your statement of 16th March of the year 2000, you mentioned
10 inter alia, when discussing the "open reception centre of Trnopolje"
11 guards in the facility wore some sort of military uniform. Could you
12 please explain what is your understanding of this sort of military
13 uniform? Do you remember? Do you still remember camouflage uniforms,
14 were there certain military ranks showing -- indicated there or something
15 else? I have to ask. But please try to tell us what is your
16 recollection, what did you see, what kind of uniforms.
17 A. At this stage, I wish I have taken a photograph. It would have
18 been far easier. They were wearing, I think, green. It could have been
19 camouflaged, but certainly uniform. I can't remember what the unit
20 designations were that they were wearing. I'm sure that -- I'm pretty
21 certain that the chap who was in charge would have had rank insignia on
22 him. I can't remember what he was. I certainly don't want to try and say
23 he was this rank or that rank. What was quite clear is that they were
24 wearing a uniform as opposed to being in civilian clothes, for example.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this fair answer. In the same
1 statement, you said inter alia, mentioning that there was a machine-gun
2 post facing into the camp, and then you added: "And there were empty
3 cartridge cases laying on the road." To be quite sure, because it's
4 totally easily understood that it's difficult to have in the year 2000 the
5 same recollection as you had it immediately after a meeting one or two
6 days later, but was it on purpose that you mentioned these empty cartridge
7 cases lying on the road, and why?
8 A. Yes, I mentioned it deliberately. I mentioned it because it
9 struck me as remarkable that on a road which was running right next to a
10 camp in which several thousand people were living, at a distance closer
11 than I am to you now, that there should be empty cartridge cases where
12 somebody had obviously been shooting. It was not at all clear where they
13 had been shooting, but highly unlikely that somebody would have picked up
14 empty cases and brought them to drop on the road. And I thought at the
15 time that it was worth comment.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But no doubt it's your recollection you saw
17 these empty cartridges beside --
18 A. Certainly.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
20 In one of your earlier statements, on the Banja Luka second visit,
21 25 August, 1992, it starts that "A Mr. Radic made a strong opening attack.
22 Radic, did you get permission from the Bosanska Krajina government to
23 arrange this visit? If not, why not?"
24 Would it be correct to say that in the beginning of the line of
25 visit, you faced strong opposition?
1 A. I think that what he was doing was trying very forcefully to put
2 us in a position where we had to make a statement that would recognise the
3 government, and at that point we were unable to recognise the government
4 formally. And so he was trying forcefully to push us into a position
5 where we would say something which he could then use to say, "Well, the
6 ECMM has recognised us." I think that was what going on, as opposed to
7 him being displeased that we were there.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. And finally, from my point
9 of view, if you would have to describe to a third person the personality
10 of Dr. Stakic, even though you only saw him for a very limited time, what
11 was your personal impression of this Dr. Stakic? You can see him in the
12 courtroom right now. What was the personality? Was there something
13 special, a special impression, strong or more moderated person? Please
14 feel free to describe what comes in your mind.
15 A. Very hard. I think that he was clearly -- he understood exactly
16 what he was talking about. He was very lucid. If I say "cheerful," he
17 was -- he wasn't laughing and chirping about the subject matter but he was
18 a positive character. Under different circumstances, you could imagine
19 having an interesting conversation with him, so a pleasant person.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for helping us understand the entire
21 environment better. It was of great assistance.
22 Judge Fassi Fihri, please.
23 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Witness, on several occasions,
24 you have expressed your skepticism regarding the veracity of the Serbian
25 version of events. You told us about two versions of events, and you
1 expressed a certain opinion about the Serbian version as being false to a
2 certain extent. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Have you expressed your doubts
5 to your interlocutories, even be it in a diplomatic way?
6 A. On that occasion, I was not the person who was conducting the
7 conversation, so I think that Sir John, who was leading the conversation
8 on our side was very gently saying --
9 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Did any member of the
10 delegation? Did any one of you express your doubts?
11 A. I think that Sir John was making the point that if they wanted to
12 be part of Western Europe and if they wanted to be following what they
13 said they wanted to be doing, then the route was through a political
14 dialogue as opposed to conflict.
15 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can you also tell
16 us whose suggestion it was to go to Trnopolje and Manjaca? Who was it who
17 proposed these two camps for your visit?
18 A. I think that this was something that was being discussed at the
19 London Conference and so I simply don't know who it was who identified as
20 those being the two places for us to go to.
21 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Who asked you to do that? Who
22 was it who asked you to go there?
23 A. A request was put to the head of the ECMM by the CSCE to ask
24 whether the ECMM could facilitate the visit. And as a result of that
25 request, because we had already been into Banja Luka a couple of times, we
1 agreed that we had the ability to take the rapporteur mission in. But I
2 think that the agenda for the visit, so the locations of where we were
3 going, had been arranged at a level above the ECMM.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it may help if I explain that there is a
5 full report on the mission which will be dealt with by Mr. Mayhew, who is
6 more intimately involved in it, and that will explain how the camps were
8 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Were you aware of the
9 existence of Omarska and Keraterm camps?
10 A. I had certainly heard about Omarska, and I was aware that it was
11 further east, so towards Banja Luka, from Trnopolje, but we didn't go
13 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Is it the case that you didn't
14 think of going there, you were not aware of it, or -- ? Because you said
15 that you raised the issue with Dr. Stakic and he was the one who told you
16 that he knew of the existence of these two camps. So how was it actually?
17 If you don't have any answer, you can feel free to say, "I don't know."
18 A. I'm not sure.
19 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Vassylenko.
21 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. McLeod, while insisting not to call the
22 existing detention facilities as "camps," did Dr. Stakic acknowledge the
23 very existence of these detention facilities in the Prijedor Municipality?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And what is your impression of Dr. Stakic's in
1 connection with these camps, their management and administration, in the
2 light of your statement that "in all parts of former Yugoslavia at that
3 time, there was a joint military and political command structure"? I
4 quoted from your written statement made on 16 of March, year 2000, page 2,
5 paragraph 4.
6 A. I think that he would have been aware that the camps were there.
7 He would have known exactly what was going on in terms of setting them up.
8 He would have been a party to the decision-making process which led, I
9 think, to the events which ended up with people being put into the camps.
10 He would have been a party, I should think, to the discussions about what
11 to do with the people who were in the camps. I don't think that he would
12 have had day-to-day responsibility for the management of the camps because
13 it struck me that that was in the hands of the military.
14 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you. I have no further questions.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any additional questions?
16 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Do you know Dr. Stakic who is
17 here? Is it the same person that you had an opportunity to meet? Would
18 you recognise him?
19 A. I think so.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course, I have to give the opportunity to the
21 parties. Any additional questions emanating from the questions of the
22 Judges? The Defence?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: If we're going to go first, yes, I do have a couple
24 areas I'd like to cover, Your Honour. Very briefly.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I emphasise very briefly.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes.
2 Further cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:
3 Q. On page 32 of your original note, sir, in the top portion there
4 seems to be something written in the Cyrillic and Latin script, if you
5 will. Now, can you tell us if you wrote that in the Cyrillic script?
6 A. I certainly did not write it, because I'm not proficient in
8 Q. Do you know who wrote that in the Cyrillic script?
9 A. It was whoever was sitting to my right. And it may have been the
10 gentleman from Pale, but I can't remember at this stage.
11 Q. And who wrote under the Cyrillic script in the Latin script the
12 name "Milomir Stakic"?
13 A. I think it was the same person because having had it written out
14 in Cyrillic, I said, "This means nothing to me," so they then wrote it out
15 in Latin so that I could understand it.
16 Q. Can you show us where in any of the documents that you prepared,
17 either the original text, the report, or in the statement that you
18 provided to the ICTY in March of 2000, where the word "Keraterm" appears?
19 Because you gave a little testimony about the knowledge or the purported
20 knowledge of Dr. Stakic as it may relate to the Keraterm camp. Can you
21 tell us where that actually appears in any of those documents?
22 A. I think I was asked whether I had any knowledge of that camp, and
23 I didn't make any comment about that camp. So to be quite clear, we
24 talked about Trnopolje. We talked about Omarska. And I'm not aware of
25 the other camp, and I don't think it appears anywhere in my data.
1 Q. And the only time that Omarska appears is on the item that you and
2 I discussed where you essentially verbatim write that Dr. Stakic states:
3 "We have heard about Omarska," in essence. Correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Nowhere else does it appear in either your original notes or in
6 the report that you made or in the March 16th, 2000, interview that you
7 gave to the ICTY. Correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, you also testified regarding your -- the difference between
10 Manjaca and Keraterm -- strike that. That's where I'm ...
11 You also discussed an issue relating to the description of Manjaca
12 and Trnopolje. Is it fair to state that in March -- is it fair to state
13 that in March in the year 2000, when you were being interviewed by the
14 ICTY and the OTP, that you had your notes and your reports with you during
15 that interview?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And at that statement that you gave them, under oath, that you
18 signed, you, in fact, describe in some detail the differences, if you
19 will, between Manjaca and Trnopolje. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In fact, in that interview, although I tried to share some of the
22 issues with you in that, you clearly state that they are quite different.
23 One had barbed wire around it; namely, Manjaca. On the other hand,
24 Trnopolje did not. Correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. One had exclusively men in it; namely, Manjaca. And Trnopolje
2 was, as you say, mixed age and gender. Correct?
3 A. I think we have picked up on the point about the age and gender,
4 and I think that I have come back and said that in practice, since my
5 report says it was mostly men, it was probably mostly men, but your point
6 is correct.
7 Q. And in fact, you also described some of the living conditions
8 between Manjaca and Trnopolje. Correct? There was a difference between
9 the two. Correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you also, sir, described, perhaps indirectly, the emotion
12 experienced by the men in Manjaca and the people in Trnopolje, namely,
13 that the people in Manjaca were deadpan in their view; yet, on the other
14 hand, the people in Trnopolje were free to walk around and were -- came up
15 to you immediately and engaged in conversations with you as others
16 gathered along. Correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm not clear how it arises
19 out of Your Honours' questions. It just seems to me it's a repetition of
21 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may reply --
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I understand it as the attempt of the Defence to
23 contest what was said by the witness already before.
24 MS. KORNER: That's what I mean, Your Honour. I mean, we're going
25 back to what was said in chief. And I thought this was meant to be
1 matters arising from Your Honours' questions.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Emanating from our questions only.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, if I may, on this, I believe the
4 witness, and the record will bear it out, that he said, in fact, "There is
5 a little difference between the two camps." That came from a question
6 from the Chamber in connection with that, and I'm merely trying to clarify
7 his view when he stated that there was very little difference between the
8 two camps.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the underlying facts were already
10 several times adduced to the transcript.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: I then have the question for him.
12 Q. Mr. McLeod, which was it? Was it the statements that you gave in
13 your March 2000 report, that they are accurate, or is it as you've just
14 testified today, that there was very little difference?
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The question is sustained.
16 MR. OSTOJIC:
17 Q. May I ask you finally, if I may, you testified about what you
18 thought what Dr. Stakic could or would have been responsible for. Do you
19 know, sir, as you sit here whether or not in fact he was responsible in
20 any shape or form in connection with the management or administration of
21 Trnopolje camp?
22 A. As I said, that's what I would surmise, as opposed to what I know
23 for a fact.
24 Q. What's the basis of your --
25 A. Talking to parties on each of the sides and having dealings with
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the military and the political people on each of the sides, the way that
2 people were structuring their affairs at that time, given that there was a
3 war, it would be that you would have a joint command structure where the
4 military and the politicians would be talking to each other and taking
5 joint decisions.
6 Q. Sir, you don't know if that was actually what occurred in the
7 Prijedor Municipality, do you? And that is just something that you
8 surmise and speculate upon based upon your general understanding of other
9 areas in the former Yugoslavia. Is that accurate?
10 A. I think that's exactly what I have said.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, sir.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any additional questions? That's not the case.
13 I have only to announce before concluding that I learned from the registry
14 a mistake was made as regards the numbers of the evidence admitted under
15 D. As D14 was already attributed in the past, the three documents
16 admitted into evidence today have the numbers D15, 16, and 17. So this
17 was this clarification.
18 Then, it remains for me to thank you for this undertaking. I know
19 it's really difficult, but I think also having present your original
20 documents and the notes you took at the time, it's of utmost importance.
21 And be sure that for both parties, but also for the decision of the
22 Judges, it's incredibly important to have not only the witness statement,
23 but the basis your notes at that time. And this should be a lesson to be
24 learned for the future, that it's important to have these documents
25 available because we all know how misleading our recollections sometimes,
1 unfortunately, is. And therefore thank you very much for all your
3 And this concludes the hearing for today. And we resume tomorrow,
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
7 1.38 p.m., to be reconvened on
8 Wednesday, the 26th day of June, 2002,
9 at 9.00 a.m.