Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5368

 1                          Monday, 1 July 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please be seated.  Good afternoon, everybody.

 6    May we hear the case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon.  This is Case Number IT-97-24-T,

 8    the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

 9            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And the appearances, please.  The OTP.

10            MS. KORNER:  Joanna Korner, Nicholas Koumjian, assisted by Ruth

11    Karper, case manager.

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  And Defence.

13            MR. LUKIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Branko Lukic and John

14    Ostojic for the Defence.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  Before we turn to today's witness, I

16    have to inform the parties on the following -- it was my intention to have

17    a hearing also the 10th of July, but I was informed via the legal officer

18    that this would cause some problems with the Defence.  And the Defence is

19    not in town at that day?  Or can we hear the reason, please.

20            MR. LUKIC:  One of the reasons is that the Defence is not in the

21    town on that day.  Of course, it could be rescheduled, but at the same

22    time, we have scheduled a visit by the mother of Mr. Stakic with her son.

23    And we usually leave the apartment when the family of Mr. Stakic comes to

24    Den Haag, so it should be rescheduled twice.

25            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  If there are no objections by the OTP, I think


Page 5369

 1    good cause is shown not to hear this case on this date.

 2            MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, we don't raise any matters.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Then, as regards Friday, 19th of July,

 4    unfortunately, we can't have a hearing this Friday because we have

 5    hearings in four other cases before Trial Chamber II.  This will be in

 6    Obrenovic, Mrdja, Mrksic, and one other case.  We'll send out the

 7    scheduling order later.  But unfortunately, it's not possible to have any

 8    courtroom for these purposes before August 2.  So therefore, we had to

 9    arrange this.

10            As regards August 1 and August 2, until now under the provision,

11    provisional only, we try to find out what is possible to have the hearing

12    on both days in the morning, if necessary.  But we'll hear about this

13    later.

14            Finally, what about the motion on Rule 95.  The Defence indicated

15    that they would be prepared to file a new motion by today.  Is it already

16    prepared?

17            MR. OSTOJIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  John Ostojic, on

18    behalf of the Defence.  I did review the transcript and the Court's

19    comments and consulted with Mr. Lukic, and this morning briefly with my

20    learned friend, Ms. Korner, we discussed that we have not completed the

21    motion in full, and we're waiting to get dates which are necessary from a

22    certain letter in connection with part of our motion.  But we have

23    accepted what the Court said in connection with the VWS, and will act

24    accordingly.  So we'll expect to have that filed no later than Wednesday

25    and present it to the Court on Wednesday.


 

Page 5370

 1            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.  I would appreciate if it could be filed

 2    and, in addition, be read out in the courtroom for expeditious decision on

 3    this motion.

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  The report the parties received in

 6    addition, the decision of the Appeals Chamber as regards the

 7    identification, so there are any comments to make on this issue?

 8            MS. KORNER:  Such comments as I might have are not particularly

 9    helpful, Your Honour.  We have received the decision, in fact, I was going

10    to raise it with Your Honour today, as to how Your Honour wants us to

11    proceed from here on in.  In other words, the actual mechanics of holding

12    this identification parade.  As I understood it, at one stage, Your

13    Honours were suggesting that the identification parade should be held in

14    Court.  I don't know whether that's still Your Honours' intention.  Can I

15    point out to a number of practical difficulties in that.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think the burden of proof and the burden how

17    to conduct this de lege artis is with the OTP.

18            MS. KORNER:  Absolutely, Your Honour.  Can I put it this way: I

19    don't know what Your Honour's practice in Your Honour's jurisdiction is,

20    but certainly in our jurisdiction identification parades would be held in

21    police stations.  That applies equally to -- not in a court.  And the

22    people selected for the parade would be general members of the public. Now

23    that obviously isn't going to apply, for one thing, there's no police

24    station.  Two, I'm not sure we can drag general members of the public

25    here.  Also, the Defence would have the right to object to the people


Page 5371

 1    selected.  I mean, as a process, it's quite a long process.  So that's why

 2    I'm asking whether Your Honours want it done in Court in front of Your

 3    Honours or whether Your Honours want it done outside the Court either in

 4    the Detention Unit where arrangements will have to be made with those who

 5    run the unit and arrangements will have to be made for, I think Your

 6    Honour said, five -- four similar people  to be brought there.

 7            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Four additional, yes.

 8            Yes, we're working on the basis of the best possible evidence. And

 9    of course, the best possible evidence would be to see the immediate

10    reaction of the witness immediately in front of us.  And therefore, the

11    most favourable solution would be, without any doubt, to have five persons

12    sitting here in the courtroom.  And I think it couldn't be too much a

13    problem -- I know the problems to recruit people from the street, as is

14    done usually in our home countries.  But why not try to find these people

15    amongst the staff members of this Tribunal.  I think this could be a

16    solution.  But to be honest, I want to leave the utmost discretion, of

17    course, to the Prosecutor.  And when selecting these persons, of course,

18    it's only fair to discuss this with the Defence in preparation whether or

19    not the Defence has any objections on the outcome of this selection.  But

20    I think it would be fair if, for example, the OTP presents, let's say,

21    seven persons, and you agree on four persons together with the Defence.

22    This could be a solution, but I want to leave it absolutely to the parties

23    to decide this.  But I believe it could be done, and it would facilitate

24    the proceedings directly in the courtroom.

25            MS. KORNER:  So, I understand that Your Honour would prefer that


Page 5372

 1    the identification takes place for the first time in the courtroom with

 2    people who look similar to Dr. Stakic sitting somewhere.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Space enough, even in our shoebox.

 4            MS. KORNER:  I should point out that Dr. Stakic is -- perhaps not

 5    the easiest person to find similarity to, given his beard and his hair

 6    line, if I can put it that way.  But we'll see what we can do.

 7            Your Honour, the next point is I understand the matter Your Honour

 8    said should there not only be an identification parade of what he looks

 9    like now, but Your Honour wants the photo board as well.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  It was the intention of the OTP to provide the

11    photo board, and what we said until now was that from our point of view,

12    there is no obstacle that in addition, the attempt is made to recognise a

13    person on the basis of a photo board.  And you prepared this photo board.

14    There were, if I remember correctly, the Defence had some objections

15    against the one or other photograph shown on this board.  But once again,

16    this has to be settled amongst the parties.

17            MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I just want to confirm.  That's as he looked

18    like ten years ago when --

19            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.

20            MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Well, Your Honour, we'll see what we can

21    arrange obviously.  I think it's anticipated the witness will be called

22    towards the end of the month.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Of July.

24            MS. KORNER:  Of July, yes.

25            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.  And this brings me to the final point:


Page 5373

 1    What about the estimated length of the Prosecutor's case from your point

 2    of view?

 3            MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, we've reprepared a list of how long we

 4    anticipate the remaining witnesses will take.  Your Honour, it's our view

 5    that the case will run roughly to mid-September, with the break.  Perhaps

 6    the beginning of the third week.

 7            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  We may have this writing that we can follow

 8    the --

 9            MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, we've updated the estimates for those 65

10    ter if we can hand those in.

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Excellent.  Could the usher be so kind and give

12    one, first, for the Defence of course, and then to the Judges.  Thank you.

13    Thank you for this preparation, because we have to find out when to

14    continue with the case.

15            MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I think we were -- our understanding was that

16    it would be recommenced on the 26th of August.

17            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Immediately after the Court recess, indeed.  And

18    then until mid-September.  This was the common understanding.  If nothing

19    happens in the meantime not foreseeable, probably there will be some

20    difficulties as regards interpretation after the summer break.  But it's

21    not yet ripe for discussion.

22            MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, then may I return finally before the

23    witness comes in if I may, there was a discussion I think in the Status

24    Conference, a discussion about handwriting.  And I think Your Honours were

25    going to return to the matter.  I don't know whether -- in the sense that


Page 5374

 1    we can't carry out a handwriting comparison unless we have samples of

 2    handwriting to compare it with.  And I think Mr. Koumjian raised this

 3    question.

 4            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  You received the two orders of this Chamber on

 5    this issue?

 6            MS. KORNER:  No.  We haven't seen any orders.

 7            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  They were filed.  We have already received it in

 8    return, so please, wait until --

 9            MS. KORNER:  I hadn't appreciated Your Honours had filed orders.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  It was already --

11            MS. KORNER:  It was filed --

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  On Friday.

13            MS. KORNER:  On Friday.  It hasn't reached us yet.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Okay.  Probably we can come back later today to

15    this issue.

16            MS. KORNER:  We'll attempt to get the orders.

17            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  Then we should proceed as soon as

18    possible with the cross-examination.  Yes.

19            MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  The reason why -- I

20    completely forgot, before the witness comes back, when he left last week,

21    he gave to VWS, who passed it on to us, a document.  It is an original

22    of -- we did a draft translation.  I think Your Honours were given a copy,

23    of a letter removing somebody --

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  From Celpak?

25            MS. KORNER:  I'm so sorry.


Page 5375

 1            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Is it Celpak in the first line?

 2            MS. KORNER:  Yes, it is.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Then we have it before us.

 4            MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Your Honour.  Your Honour, we gave it to the

 5    Defence.  Clearly because he's been giving evidence, nobody's spoken to

 6    him about it.  I don't know where it comes from, how he got it, or what

 7    made him produce it.  I'm just asking for Your Honours' assistance or

 8    guidance as to how it should be dealt with, whether Your Honours would

 9    wish me to reopen examination-in-chief with him to deal with this document

10    or --

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think it would be the most appropriate way in

12    this party procedure, and just before we really start with the witness, I

13    wanted to ask the parties:  When some issues will be discussed emanating

14    from the letter I read out during the last hearing, and all the question

15    in this context, let us know beforehand, and I think we have to go for

16    good reasons then in closed session again.

17            MS. KORNER:  That's the letter that Your Honour read into the

18    record.

19            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.

20            MS. KORNER:  About the assistance.

21            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.

22            MS. KORNER:  Yes, well Your Honour, at the end of

23    cross-examination, I was going to raise various matters about the

24    cross-examination in any event, basically to say I'm not at all clear what

25    case, if any, is being put to this witness at the moment.


Page 5376

 1            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Only that we are clear, do you agree that we

 2    just for a few minutes restart, on the basis of this document, with the

 3    examination-in-chief?  It's an interruption once again of your

 4    cross-examination.  Therefore, I have to ask you for your permission.

 5            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That would be fine by us.

 6    My only question is, I'm not sure if we have the document that counsel is

 7    referring to.  So if we may have an extra copy of it, we appreciate it.

 8            MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, what we've done is we've done a colour

 9    copy for Your Honours and one for the Defence.  Can I ask, perhaps, that

10    what is exhibited in this case, Your Honours of course and the Defence can

11    look at the original, but rather than making the original an exhibit, to

12    make one of the colour copies an exhibit because it will be needed for the

13    Brdjanin/Talic trial at a later stage.  And once it becomes an exhibit

14    here, it becomes quite complicated.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.

16            MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

17            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  In the meantime, when this document is

18    distributed, what about our request for colour copies?

19            MS. KORNER:  Yes, I think we have got a number of colour copies

20    for Your Honours of the documents you requested.

21            Your Honour, we've copied sets of all the colour copies.  One is

22    for Your Honours, one is for the registry, and one is for the Defence.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Excellent.

24            MS. KORNER:  The colour copies, one for the Defence, one for the

25    registry, and one for the Judges.  That's the first batch, Your Honour.


Page 5377

 1    More are coming.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Can we agree that we start a new binder

 3    including these colour copies, and it's my understanding you tender this

 4    into evidence.  Any objections against the admission into evidence of

 5    these colour copies?  I think they have additional probative value to that

 6    what we had in the past.

 7            MS. KORNER:  I just wonder whether they shouldn't be --

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Concentrated.

 9            MS. KORNER:  Whether they shouldn't be -- because they are already

10    exhibited all these document, whether they shouldn't become a version of

11    the actual exhibit numbers they've got.

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  We can do it this way, add these to the former

13    documents under -1.  Right?

14            MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes.  No objection, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  The colour copies will be admitted

16    into evidence under the number of the exhibit already admitted into

17    evidence, only, in addition, -1 to the number they have already.

18            And then finally, it is your intention to tender the copy of the

19    document we have now before us in colour copy.

20            MS. KORNER:  As an exhibit, yes.

21            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Objections?

22            MR. OSTOJIC:  No, Your Honour, not as a colour copy, no.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Then the next available number will be, please.

24            THE REGISTRAR:  So, this will be Exhibit S182.

25            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Admitted into evidence as S182B, and the draft


Page 5378

 1    translation, S182A.

 2            Anything else to be settled before we start?  I can see nothing.

 3    Then please, may the witness be brought in.

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Good afternoon.  Good to see you back in

 6    The Hague.  Please be seated.  I don't want to start without recalling

 7    that of course, even there was a longer break, all that what you have to

 8    say today and tomorrow, the same rules apply.  And you are still acting

 9    under your solemn declaration.  Do you understand?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I do.  And I

11    accept this, just as I did when I made the solemn declaration.

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  As evidently out of the blue, a

13    document was tendered, we start for a short moment with the

14    examination-in-chief.  Please, Ms. Korner.

15                          WITNESS:  MEVLUDIN SEJMENOVIC [Resumed]

16                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                          Examined by Ms. Korner:  [Continued].

18       Q.   Mr. Sejmenovic, before you left, you handed to the victims and

19    witnesses service a document.  Could you have a look, please, at this

20    document.

21       A.   Your Honour, this is the document I submitted through the

22    assistant.  I sent it from the airport in Amsterdam.  This is a decision

23    dismissing from work an employee who was not an ethnic Serb and who was an

24    ordinary worker.  If the Court wishes, I can read out what is written in

25    the document.  And if the Court wishes, I can also explain how I came into


Page 5379

 1    possession of this document and why I submitted it to you in the way that

 2    I did.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please do.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  This

 5    document bears the heading "The Celpak Cellulose and Paper Factory, PO

 6    Prijedor.  Director of the sector for personnel, legal, and general

 7    administration."  The document bears the number 466.  And the date, the

 8    16th of October, 1992.

 9            Further, it says:  "Pursuant to an order of the Crisis Staff of

10    the Prijedor Municipality number 001-023-49/92, of the 2nd of July, 1992,

11    I hereby issue the following decision on the termination of employment:

12            "One, to the worker Sulejmana Husnija Kuduzovic, working at the

13    post of first assistant --"

14            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are not aware of this term.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- "preparation of acid.  His

16    employment is terminated because of his participation in the armed

17    rebellion in the Municipality of Prijedor on the 2nd of July, 1992."  Then

18    there follows an explanation of reasons, a statement of reasons.  "By the

19    order of the Crisis Staff of the Municipality of Prijedor, number

20    01-023-49/92, of the 2nd of July, all organisations were ordered, if they

21    had employees who took part in the armed rebellion and who are now in one

22    of the refugee camps of Omarska or Keraterm, to terminate their

23    employment.

24            "Acting in accordance with the above-mentioned order, and pursuant

25    to the letter received from the public security station number 11-12-26,


Page 5380

 1    of the 16th of July, 1992, on the register of such persons, the decision

 2    mentioned in the disposition of this decision was reached."

 3            And then, in the left hand bottom corner, it says:  "Delivered to"

 4    and there is a list of four addresses.  "One, the above-named.  Two, the

 5    financial department for the payroll.  Three, to EJ, who is the head of a

 6    unit."  I assume it's the energy unit, but I'm not sure. "And four:  "To

 7    the employment department."  And the signature is that of the director of

 8    the sector for legal, personnel and administrative affairs, Zeljko

 9    Skondric, a graduate lawyer.  And there is a handwritten signature over

10    the typed name, and the stamp of the Celpak factory.  There is nothing on

11    the other side.  There is only a handwritten telephone number on the other

12    side.

13            The way I came into possession of this document is as follows:

14    When I testified before the Tribunal two years ago, I don't know the exact

15    date, a gentleman called (redacted) [Realtime transcript read in

16    error (redacted)] was also before the Tribunal. And on completing our

17    obligations to the Tribunal, just as we were setting out to go home, he

18    told me that he had this document with him, and that he had forgotten to

19    give it to the investigators.  He asked me to do this.  I took the piece

20    of paper from him.  I didn't study it in detail.  I only saw that it was a

21    decision on dismissal from work, and I forgot to hand over the document.

22    The document was in a pocket inside my leather bag.  I remember that (redacted)

23    (redacted) then told me how he had received this document, but now I'm not

24    so sure about it any more.  Either it was handed to his wife, who went to

25    the company, or to him personally.  I'm not sure about that any more.  But


Page 5381

 1    this person exists, and this information can easily be checked.  At the

 2    airport in Amsterdam, while we were waiting for our flight, I put my plane

 3    ticket and some other papers in this pocket inside my bag, and Mr. Greg,

 4    who was the assistant accompanying us to the airport saw this.  I felt

 5    inside the pocket, and I discovered this piece of paper, and then I wrote

 6    several sentences on a blank sheet of paper.  And I asked Greg to deliver

 7    this to the Tribunal if he could.

 8            He was present when I was writing this note, and I gave this

 9    document and the note into his hands and asked him to deliver it if

10    possible to see if it could be of use to the Court.  But anyway, two years

11    ago, I undertook to do this, and I really forgot.  So in this way, I have

12    carried out my promise to this gentleman, and I have done now what he

13    asked me to do when he gave me this document.

14            MS. KORNER:

15       Q.   Mr. Sejmenovic, that was when you were testifying in the Keraterm

16    case, was it?

17       A.   Correct, correct, yes.  In the Keraterm case, yes.  I must have

18    got the dates mixed up.  But in any case, I know that I found this

19    document in my bag.  I know it had been in my bag for a long time, and I

20    had forgotten to fulfill my promise and hand it over to the Tribunal.  I

21    was not given the name of a specific person to whom to give the document.

22    Mr. -- The gentleman who gave me this document only said:  "Give it to the

23    Tribunal."  And as I was already leaving, I did this in the way I have

24    just described.

25       Q.   Yes, thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic.


Page 5382

 1            MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I think that's all I needed to --

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Just one question for clarification:  On page

 3    13, line 14 of our today's transcript, it reads: (redacted)  Did I

 4    understand you correctly that you received this document by (redacted)

 5    as it reads on the document?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] (redacted).

 7            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  You received it from this (redacted)., as we

 8    can read the name here.

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I received it when he was

10    already on his way home and had packed his things some 10 minutes before

11    we left.  He was putting his documents inside his bag, and it was then

12    that he asked me to hand this document over to somebody at the Tribunal.

13            MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, the only thing I'm having a quick check

14    made of, if I can, is whether this was a protected witness.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.

16            MS. KORNER:  It may well be --

17            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  All the time I thought about the 30 minutes

18    rule --

19            MS. KORNER:  Exactly.

20            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  -- And therefore, to be on the safe side, let's

21    redact this name from the transcript.  Probably we can come back to this

22    later.  It was mentioned as I said, page 13, line 14.  And then

23    unfortunately I myself quoted.

24            MS. KORNER:  We've just had it confirmed, Your Honour, he was a

25    protected witness.  If that could be --


Page 5383

 1            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  If that could be redacted immediately, starting

 2    13:14, and then all the time this name is mentioned in the transcript,

 3    please.

 4            Please, send the pages 13 to 15 to me, and I'll take care of this.

 5    Thank you.

 6            MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, if it's going out on public session in

 7    the foyer, lobby, then it ought to be made sure it doesn't go out.

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.  Thank you.

 9            Before we start now the continuation of the cross-examination, let

10    me first express my gratitude that the Defence was prepared to have such

11    enormous break during cross-examination.  I know it's not facilitating

12    your work, but we appreciate really that you consented.  Thank you once

13    again.  But now it's your turn.

14            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]

16       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Sejmenovic.

17       A.   Good afternoon.

18       Q.   On the back of the exhibit you were reviewing, S128B, can you tell

19    me whose handwriting appears on that page?

20       A.   I don't know.  I didn't pay attention to it.  I see that it is

21    handwriting, and that it's a telephone number.  But I don't know.  I

22    didn't pay special attention to it.  I didn't even study the document in

23    detail when it was given to me.  But when I found it in my bag at the

24    airport, I immediately asked the gentleman called Greg to hand it in.

25       Q.   Do you know who this individual Osman is that's referred to there,


Page 5384

 1    or can you read to us what it says?  Because it's more than just a number.

 2    There seems to be two numbers and two names, if you would be kind enough

 3    to read that into the record for us.

 4       A.   Yes, yes.  I can read it.  On the back, there is a handwritten

 5    name, Osman, followed by the number 811-407.  It could be a telephone

 6    number.  Underneath it says Caus, and then the number 815-248.  This is

 7    what can be seen on the back of the document.  But what this means, well,

 8    the person who gave me this document would probably know if that was the

 9    person who made these notes, or if somebody else did.

10       Q.   So you would have no information as to whether this is the same

11    Osman that we were referencing during our cross-examination who was

12    involved with the Territorial Defence and/or the Kozarac police station.

13    Correct?

14       A.   I don't believe that's so, because that person is from a different

15    part of Prijedor.  This man is from Gomjenica, or Cele, which is a

16    completely different part of Prijedor, separate from Kozarac.  So I don't

17    think there's a connection, but I recommend that you contact this person,

18    and he will probably know what it's about.

19       Q.   Sir, going back now to your direct and cross-examination of the

20    last couple weeks, we talked about briefly the announcement that was made

21    on or about April 30th, 1992, at the time of the takeover in Prijedor. I'm

22    trying to just focus you on that time.  With respect to that, sir, in May

23    of 1996, you testified that the announcement over the radio, on page 912,

24    line 12 through 15, was as follows:  "Radio Prijedor started to broadcast

25    its announcements straight away that morning saying the SDS undertook some


Page 5385

 1    measures in order to debloc authority in Prijedor.  The SDS members

 2    appeared on broadcast very often during the day."

 3            Similarly, sir, in your testimony sworn as it was in the Kovacevic

 4    trial on page 419, lines 21 through 25, you were asked a similar question

 5    regarding the announcements on the radio indicating who had been

 6    responsible for the takeover.  You answered in the affirmative, and you

 7    continued to state:  "They were quite open about it.  They said that the

 8    Serbian Democratic Party had taken over all power in the municipality, so

 9    that the municipality could function normally again."

10            In your testimony here, sir, on pages 96 and 97, you told us that

11    you heard the announcement.  And I understand that it has been several

12    years since that time, over ten.  You told us that you heard the public

13    announcement of the Crisis Staff.  In neither 1996, in your testimony in

14    May of 1996 in the Tadic case, or your testimony in July of 1998 in the

15    Kovacevic case did you ever, sir, mention that the Crisis Staff

16    participated or even existed at the time when these alleged announcements

17    were made over Radio Prijedor.  And I'd like you to reconcile for us how

18    is it that today, or recently, are you able to recall after ten years that

19    in fact it wasn't as you stated earlier, but it was the Crisis Staff that

20    made those announcements?  Can you reconcile that for me?

21       A.   In the former -- previous trials, I was asked whether I had heard

22    an announcement over the radio.  I listened to that announcement, perhaps

23    two or three times.  I was not able to quote the content of the

24    announcement, but I remember some details quite clearly, even today.

25    Whether at the beginning of the announcement it was said that it was the


Page 5386

 1    Crisis Staff making the announcement, that I'm not sure of.  I can't

 2    remember that.  Several days ago, I was not asked specifically whether the

 3    words "Crisis Staff" had been used.  I can neither confirm nor deny this.

 4    I can't remember.  But the Crisis Staff was the authority that issued

 5    communiques, and that is a fact.

 6            I know that interpretations were given as to why this was done,

 7    that some people's names were mispronounced, for example, Becir Medunjanin

 8    from Kozarac was said to be called Becir Medunjani, which sounds like an

 9    Albanian last name and first name.  And this was done to create among the

10    Serbian population a feeling that this was parallel to what had been

11    happening in Kosovo.  They referred to him as Becir Medunjani, and I did

12    pay attention to this.  I noticed this.  So I cannot confirm or deny who

13    formally issued the announcement.

14       Q.   Well, sir, I'm not asking you here to give me your opinion.  I'm

15    asking you as a fact witness, as a person identified by the OTP solely as

16    a fact witness.  You tell me, sir, which is true?  Was is it that the SDS

17    made the announcements or was it this Crisis Staff that you told us a

18    couple weeks ago that they made the announcements?  Is it your testimony

19    in 1996 and 1998 that we should believe, and is it different, and how so,

20    from your testimony here today?  And if you don't remember, simply tell

21    us --

22       A.   No, no, it's not different.  It's not different.  There was only

23    one body in the municipality of Prijedor which was in power.  There was

24    the Crisis Staff, and nothing else.  There was nothing above the Crisis

25    Staff.  The Crisis Staff was composed of the SDS leadership, the people


Page 5387

 1    from the municipality from the SDS, and if I said an "SDS announcement," I

 2    meant the people who were from the SDS.  Who ordered this announcement to

 3    be read, that, I don't know.

 4            I do not remember whether at the beginning of the announcement it

 5    was said that the SDS of Prijedor or the Crisis Staff were making this

 6    announcement.  That, I don't remember.  But I'm talking about people who

 7    belonged to a particular political party and who were appointed to certain

 8    posts, and then took over power by military means.  If you're asking me

 9    about the legal issue of who made this announcement, I don't know.  But I

10    know they were SDS people.

11       Q.   Right.  With respect to the name that you were just referencing,

12    Becir, I think, Medunjanin, do you know if that was identified by a

13    newspaper man, or who was actually distorting or misstating his name, if

14    you remember?

15       A.   I don't remember who the person was, but the name was pronounced

16    as Becir Medunjani, on several occasions.  This was done persistently.

17       Q.   Let me ask you this, sir:  On April or May 1st, 1992, the day

18    after the takeover, you shared with us that you went to the town of

19    Prijedor.  At that time you said you saw that flags were hoisted, Serbian

20    flags.  Did you notice, sir, at all whether or not the flags of the --

21    Yugoslavian flag was hoisted as well on those same federal and republic

22    local institutions?  Isn't that true?

23       A.   I saw two flags.  I think I saw two flags in front of the

24    municipality.  As for other buildings, I didn't see what kind of flags

25    there were.  I didn't pass by the MUP building.  I saw the MUP building at


Page 5388

 1    a distance of about 80 metres, but I took another street.  I went around

 2    it, went to the party, and from the party, I went down the main street and

 3    arrived at the municipality.  As for the institutions, there was the MUP

 4    building.  I don't remember what I saw on the MUP building.  I just

 5    remember what I saw in front of it, from the corner from which I was

 6    looking.  It's possible there was a Yugoslav flag.  I think there were two

 7    flags in front of the municipality.  But I don't remember that there was a

 8    Yugoslav flag with a five-pointed star.  I think there was no five-pointed

 9    star on it.  But I really don't remember that detail now.

10       Q.   Let me understand, please, is it that you remember the Yugoslavian

11    flag or you don't remember the flag at all but you know that there were

12    two flags but yet you only remember the Serbian flag with the four Cs.  Or

13    do you remember that there was a Yugoslavian flag without the five-pointed

14    star?  Which one of the variations would you like us to believe?

15       A.   I think it was a Yugoslav flag without a five-pointed star, and a

16    Serbian flag, but there was no flag of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  That had

17    been taken down.  And as far as I can recall at present, without --

18    without getting into the situation deeper, that's what I can remember.  I

19    think there was the Yugoslav flag without a five-pointed star, and the

20    Serbian flag.

21       Q.   Let me clarify another issue if I may, during your visits to and

22    from Trnopolje.  You went into Trnopolje yourself, and then you left

23    Trnopolje, and then returned at a later time.  Correct?

24       A.   Correct.

25       Q.   How long were you there at the Trnopolje camp, physically?  For


Page 5389

 1    how many days, nights, or any way you can quantify it for us?

 2       A.   I cannot quantify this precisely.  I never have been able to.  I

 3    thought about it several times.  I tried to remember the chronological

 4    order of events.  I like to do this for myself.  But as I've already said,

 5    I have lost my orientation in time, and sometimes two days seem to have

 6    lasted much longer.  Or five days seemed to pass by in a flash depending

 7    on what you're experiencing at the time.  What I can say with certainty is

 8    that it was between three and five days that I spent in the camp of

 9    Trnopolje.  Whether it was five or three, I simply cannot tell you with

10    any precision.

11            Three, four, or five days.

12       Q.   Well, which ever many days it was --

13       A.   It's possible it was three days, but I'm not sure.

14       Q.   Whichever way or however long it was, did you have an opportunity

15    while you were at the Trnopolje camp to observe the people who were within

16    that camp?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Were you able to, sir, see whether the people that were within

19    that Trnopolje camp, whether they were of mixed age and gender?

20       A.   There were women, there were children, there were adult men.  But

21    they were separated.  They could not sleep together.  They were separated.

22    That was the camp regime at the point when I arrived.  15 days before

23    that, the regime was quite different, and the people who were there told

24    me this, but then it was changed.

25       Q.   Let's try to focus your testimony on what you know, what you


Page 5390

 1    experienced, and what you observed.  I'm sure my learned friend from the

 2    other side will ask you about all the hearsay, all the hypothetical, and

 3    all the other stuff you heard.  For my purposes, I'm really interested in

 4    what you saw and observed.  While at Trnopolje, is it fair to say, sir,

 5    that it was not a camp which had exclusively men of military age?

 6       A.   No, there were not exclusively men of military age.  These men

 7    were, however, in separate rooms, and they were grouped together.  The

 8    women were accommodated in different parts of the camp.

 9       Q.   Had anyone, sir, come to Trnopolje camp during the time that you

10    were there, was it open and obvious for them to see people of mixed age

11    and gender, meaning women, children, men, et cetera?  Older and younger?

12    True?

13       A.   I have already answered this.  There were people of all ages and

14    both sexes.

15       Q.   I'm asking you, was it so open and so obvious that anyone who

16    would come there, whether it be a monitor or any other individual who

17    happened to come along Trnopolje camp, that it was easy --

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   No, it was not open and obvious?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   How so?

22       A.   No, no.

23       Q.   How so?

24       A.   No.  From the camp, one could go out, if one had approval, with

25    approval.  People would go to the sentry posts and get approval to go and


Page 5391

 1    get food.  That's one part of my answer.  The next part of my answer is

 2    that people were brought to the camp in buses from other parts of

 3    Prijedor, from Puharska, from Rizvanovici, and some other places.  Also,

 4    some people were transferred from Keraterm to Trnopolje.

 5       Q.   I don't know if we're understanding each other, and it might be an

 6    issue with the question that I posed to you.  My question is very

 7    straightforward, sir.  The Trnopolje camp, and when I say open, I'm not

 8    saying open for people to have access to come in and out.  We'll discuss

 9    that.  If someone were to just happen upon the camp, was it obvious to

10    them merely to see that the camp contained people of mixed gender and age?

11    It was rather obvious, wasn't it?  It didn't take you three days to figure

12    that out, did it?

13       A.   Well, yes, one could see that there were both men and women there.

14    One could see that.

15       Q.   Did you ever, sir --

16       A.   At least, at the point in time when I was there.

17       Q.   During the time that you were there, did the women leave the camp

18    and bring food back to others within the camp?  Did you observe that at

19    all?

20       A.   It was mostly men who went to get food after getting approval.  I

21    saw that.  I saw several men getting permission to go to their houses and

22    bring back some flour or some potatoes.  And I know that several men also

23    got permission to take a tractor or a truck and catch some stray cattle,

24    slaughter them, and bring them back to the camp in order to provide food

25    for the inmates.  I think the person's name was Rega, but I'm not


Page 5392

 1    completely sure.  I think it was.

 2       Q.   Had you, sir, having lived near Trnopolje, had you been to this

 3    facility prior to April of 1992, ever?

 4       A.   You mean the rooms inside the building?  Yes, in some of them.  So

 5    I saw some of them before, but not others.

 6       Q.   How was the camp facilities different from the time that you

 7    visited it prior to April 1992 and that which you experienced in June and

 8    July of 1992?  How was the structure different, if at all?

 9       A.   How was it different?

10       Q.   If at all.

11       A.   Do you mean the building construction or?

12       Q.   Any physical attributes that you noted, sir, or observed in

13    connection with this Trnopolje facility prior to April 30th and that which

14    you experienced after or during June and July of 1992?

15       A.   Well, there were several details.  Around the facility and around

16    the stadium, there were armed soldiers and machine-gun nests.  Then it was

17    also different because the desks and chairs had been taken out of the

18    school, and some men slept on the floor in the classrooms, at least in

19    some of the classrooms where I spent one night.  In fact, I spent one

20    night in the corridor, but near the door of a classroom.

21            About the other buildings, I don't know.  The building across the

22    road was a family house.  At that time, it was the camp command.  And the

23    family was not living in the house any more.  Commander Kuruzovic,

24    commander Slavko, the soldiers and guards were there.  There was another

25    house where soldiers slept.  There was a house belonging to a person


Page 5393

 1    called Hamdo, and this was also inhabited by soldiers, or at least

 2    upstairs, there were soldiers.  That's what I can say about it now.

 3       Q.   Is it true, sir, that the Trnopolje camp does not and did not have

 4    either prior to April 1992 or after April of 1992, a barbed wire

 5    surrounding the entire camp?  Yes or no, sir.

 6       A.   Okay.  The wire existed before April 1992.  It existed if you look

 7    from the Trnopolje/Kozarac Road, you see it was there where the farmhouse

 8    was.  And there was also another barbed wire.  It was the sort of boundary

 9    from the football stadium.  There was an old wire which was slightly

10    damaged, but existed nevertheless.  On the other two sides there was no

11    barbed wire, not before, not then.

12       Q.   Is it fair to say, sir, because you didn't itemize it as one of

13    the descriptions that the wire that you described in connection with the

14    stadium or the other part of the Trnopolje facility, that, in fact, that

15    had not changed.  It had been the same as you saw it prior to April 1992

16    as when you saw it in June and July of 1992.  Correct?  Same fence in the

17    same place?

18       A.   Yes, but within the barbed wires, there was something else.

19    Instead of sandbags and other things, there were people.

20       Q.   Right.  Let me ask you this:  Do you know, sir, prior to April of

21    1992 -- first strike that.  How far do you live from Trnopolje camp?  How

22    far did you live from Trnopolje camp in 1992?

23       A.   In 1992, I used to live perhaps 200 metres from the building, 200,

24    250 metres from the Trafo building or the farmer's cooperative building.

25       Q.   Do you know, sir, if at any time prior to April 1992, the


Page 5394

 1    Trnopolje facility was used for any refugees, prior to April of 1992?

 2       A.   Before April 1992.  I can't remember.

 3       Q.   How about right after the war in Croatia?  Do you know if there

 4    were any Serbian refugees that were housed in the Trnopolje camp?

 5       A.   Before April, sir, the community centre was operating.  The

 6    farmer's cooperative was working, the school was open.

 7       Q.   So you're saying that Serbian refugees were not, at any time, at

 8    the Trnopolje facility.  Correct?

 9       A.   Possibly.  There may have been a number of them, a number of Serb

10    refugees did come to the area.  It was not a large number, however, and it

11    was not something that could be visibly seen passing by.

12       Q.   Thank you.  If I can have the Court instruct the usher to show the

13    witness Exhibit S144B.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please do so.

15            MR. OSTOJIC:

16       Q.   Mr. Sejmenovic, we're going to change the topic a little bit here

17    now and ask a couple questions on mobilisation if you don't mind.  I'm

18    going to give you this document and ask you a couple questions on that.

19            Sir, can you tell us whether or not this was a mandatory or

20    voluntary request for mobilisation?

21       A.   As far as I can remember, after the census of citizens who were at

22    the disposal of the Territorial Defence, the TO decided to send calls and

23    to organise.  The TO may have done this before that with the regular

24    members of the TO.  I don't know.  But later on, I know that on the basis

25    of voluntary situation, they were -- there was a callup in that stage.  On


Page 5395

 1    that list, there were people who were older, who were younger, who were

 2    subject or not subject to military service.

 3       Q.   And we're speaking of the mobilisation that was issued on April

 4    8th, 1992, correct, approximately three and a half weeks before the

 5    takeover of Prijedor.  Is that correct?

 6       A.   You mean the invitation, the call of the republican staff?

 7       Q.   Is S144 that call from the republican staff?

 8       A.   No, this is the TO of the BiH and the Kozarac TO.  This republican

 9    call should have gone through the municipal bodies, through the existing

10    municipal structure, but it was not impossible to implement it, given the

11    situation because some members were in favour and some were against.

12            But in Kozarac, the TO structure continued to exist, and at one

13    moment, it tried to organise mobilisation.

14       Q.   And do you have an opinion, sir, as to whether or not it was

15    successful in organising that mobilisation, in light of the fact that we

16    showed you the document listing members of the Territorial Defence last

17    week?

18       A.   I could give you my own personal view, not on the basis of my own

19    insight into the documents.  I can give you my own opinion, my own

20    impression.  I believe that the process of mobilisation had started, but

21    was not completed because of the acceleration of events and because the

22    military attack on Kozarac began.  I think the process of mobilisation and

23    of creating defensive forces was not fully complete before the attack on

24    Kozarac.  In some parts, yes; in some parts, no.

25       Q.   Thank you.


Page 5396

 1            MR. OSTOJIC:  And now, Your Honour, if I can have the usher show

 2    Mr. Sejmenovic Exhibit D7A and B, please.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please do so.

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:

 5       Q.   My first question to you, sir, before you testified in this case

 6    and gave your written statement on June 11th, 2002, was this document one

 7    of the numerous and relevant documents the OTP asked you to review in

 8    connection with your testimony in this matter?

 9       A.   No.  I didn't -- I don't remember the Prosecution having shown me

10    that document.

11       Q.   It only happened a couple weeks ago.  You don't know that it

12    happened or you just can't remember that it happened?

13       A.   No, allow me to go through the document, to skim through it, and

14    then I shall tell you.

15            No, I didn't see that document.  I'm seeing it for the very first

16    time.  It's a document I may have seen one or two pages of that document,

17    but I didn't see this particular document.

18       Q.   Well, help me with this, Mr. Sejmenovic:  Do you think or do you

19    have an opinion that if there's a document that has your name on it, that

20    it would be relevant, at least for you to review?  Would you agree with me

21    there?

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think it's not a problem for --

23            MS. KORNER:  I don't think that's a question he can answer.

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes, it's a question you could ask the other

25    party, but not the witness, why.  I think the answer --


Page 5397

 1            MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Okay.

 3            MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.

 4       Q.   Sir, if you look at the first page of this document on the B/C/S

 5    version, if you will, which starts I believe on the top right-hand corner,

 6    page 328.  Do you see that?

 7       A.   I can see it.

 8       Q.   Now, the date of this document seems to be the 30th of April,

 9    1992.  Correct?

10       A.   Yes.  It says:  "April 30th, 1992."

11       Q.   If you could just take a look at that first page, sir, do you know

12    any of the individuals that are mentioned there such as Beco, Islam,

13    Melkic, Sivac, Nagib, Medic, Osman, Suljo, Kemo Fazlic?  Do you recognise

14    any of these individuals?

15       A.   I recognise some of them, Beco may have been Becir Medunjanin.

16    Islam, Islam Bahonjic perhaps.

17       Q.   Let's not guess.  Let's look at the lower part of that page where

18    it gives their first and last name, under the word delegation.

19       A.   Right.  Well, sir, you showed me the beginning of the document.

20    You should have told me to see the end of the page, too.  We have the name

21    Fazlic --

22       Q.   Excuse me, Mr. Sejmenovic.  I'm only pointing to where you can

23    find that.  It's not a criticism.  Please don't take it as a criticism.

24    Do you know those individuals who are listed on that page?

25       A.   I know Islam Bahonjic, Becir Medunjanin.  I know Ilijaz Memic.


Page 5398

 1    The name here is Ilko, but I suppose it's Ilijaz.  Kemal Fazlic.  I know

 2    there was a person by that name in Kozarac.  But I don't believe I know

 3    him personally.

 4       Q.   Do you know what this document is, at least this first page that

 5    you've had an opportunity to look at?

 6       A.   Well, may I first read it, and then tell you?  I see that it is a

 7    minutes, a record.  It is written by hand.  I don't know what it

 8    addresses.  Is it written by a body, whether it is a minutes from a

 9    meeting?  I don't know.  I can only read what is written in it.

10       Q.   Well, help me with this:  On the first thing, Beco talks about a

11    main road issue.  Do you have any idea what he's referring to, sir, in

12    that first paragraph?  Or  maybe you could read the first paragraph to us

13    if you would be kind enough, out loud.

14       A.   It's not very legible, at least the first part.  I'll try to read

15    it slowly.  "Beco-Prijedor.  Prijedor cannot help us at all.  State of

16    mobility," well, this cannot be read.  Then the word "population, not to

17    undertake measures aimed at provocation."  This part is also illegible.

18            Then it says:  "Which Miskovic stated in an angry voice."  I think

19    that is what it says.  Then "to establish contact with party in the

20    municipality, the state of the main road."  It is not legible.  You can

21    see for yourself.  The copy is not legible.

22       Q.   I have it, thank you.  What main road issue, if you know, were

23    they discussing, sir, or the state of the main road?  What is it that they

24    are discussing there, do you know?

25       A.   I cannot be sure.  I know that the Banja Luka/Prijedor Road was


Page 5399

 1    referred to a highway, sometimes do not consider to be a main road.  But

 2    if the records are correct, if it is something from a meeting, that it may

 3    refer to that road, the Prijedor/Kozarac Road or the Prijedor/Banja Luka

 4    Road.  I cannot give you an exact answer to that question.

 5       Q.   Help me with this:  Do you know what they are talking about when

 6    they state "not to undertake actions with the aim of provoking?"  Did you

 7    ever have any discussions with these individuals about an issue of

 8    provocation by the Muslims against the Serbs?

 9       A.   Just the general attitude.  Much energy was invested in this.  And

10    theoretically, one could not give occasion, a motivation, for the Serb

11    Army to attack.  We knew it practice that it provoked but then blamed the

12    other side and began attacking.  And that's why we had to be additionally

13    cautious.

14       Q.   Let me just ask you this:  From April 30th through May 22nd, 1992,

15    which is the date I think we've earmarked as the incident occurring on

16    Hambarine, and then the attack, if you dispute that, just share it with

17    us, but we have that as an approximation, but during that time period,

18    sir, were there any attacks by the military to any Bosnian Muslim village

19    or territory during that time period, from April 30th through May 22nd,

20    1992?

21       A.   There were attacks in other parts of Bosnia.  We heard about those

22    events on television, in Zvornik, in Bijeljina, in Bosanski Novi.  We

23    listened to this information and it was always the Serb side.  The Banja

24    Luka television kept saying that the Serb army had been attacked and that

25    it was compelled to respond by bringing units to Bosnian towns.  And in


Page 5400

 1    Croatia, and in Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was the civilians or the other side

 2    that attacked the Serb army, and then the attack began.  This was a rule.

 3       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  Or an attack by the military

 4    or the police or civilians on any Bosnian Muslim communities or homes from

 5    the period of April 30th, 1992, up to including and May 22nd, 1992?

 6       A.   I don't know that.  I know that in Trnopolje, they were firing at

 7    non-Serb from the Ribnjak area, at non-Serb homes.  This happened on

 8    several occasions, even before the takeover.  Well, I can give you

 9    specific names of the peoples who owned these homes.  I can --

10            MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, sorry to interrupt, can I just have

11    clarification because I'm not clear from the question that was asked, was

12    the question were there any attacks anywhere in Bosnia or just limited to

13    Prijedor?

14            MR. OSTOJIC:  It was certainly limited to Prijedor.

15            MS. KORNER:  I'm grateful.  Because it wasn't clear from the way

16    the question came up.

17            MR. OSTOJIC:  The second one I think was, but the first one he

18    answered in a little more broad sense, not to direct --

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I heard the question,

20    that whether anywhere in Bosnia in those days there were attacks, and I

21    answered that question.

22            MR. OSTOJIC:

23       Q.   You're correct.  We're not debating that.

24       A.   Now you are claiming that there was no such question, that you

25    hadn't asked that question.  Then perhaps there may have been a


Page 5401

 1    translation problem.

 2            MS. KORNER:  [Previous translation continues]...  That was the

 3    question.  Is it the question of the question -- I'm sorry, it is the

 4    witness's knowledge that he's seeking or whether there were actually

 5    attacks elsewhere?  Because there's a difference between the two.

 6            MR. OSTOJIC:  We know there's a difference because we've heard his

 7    testimony ad nauseum about the difference between the two.  If counsel has

 8    an objection, state it, give a basis, and if I feel it's appropriate

 9    before the Court rules, I'll restate my question.  If I disagree, the

10    Court will rule, and depending on the ruling I'll either restate it or ask

11    a different question.

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  The trial stands adjourned until ten minutes

13    past 4.00.  Probably the parties can then in the meantime agree on the

14    question.  Thank you.

15                          --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.

16                          --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

17            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please be seated.

18            MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, just before cross-examination continues,

19    we've seen the orders.  Would Your Honour grant some time either at the

20    end of today or tomorrow afternoon before the hearing so that I can raise

21    two matters that arise.

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.

23            MS. KORNER:  Whichever --

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  We'll come back to this.

25            MS. KORNER:  Yes.


Page 5402

 1            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Could the witness please --

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Could the witness please expect the questions of

 5    the Defence counsel before answering.  Thank you.

 6            MR. OSTOJIC:

 7       Q.   Mr. Sejmenovic, prior to the break, you mentioned that you did

 8    hear of some instances in the Bosnia-Herzegovina area in connection with

 9    massacres, provocation, et cetera.  And my question truly was initially

10    confined to the Prijedor area, but you answered in the general.  And since

11    you answer that way, I just have a follow-up.  Since you did hear about

12    these instances of either attacks, or however we want to categorise them,

13    did you sir at any time hear about the massacre or the killings at

14    Sijekovac or Kupres?  Did you hear about that?

15       A.   You asked me whether I heard and whether there were any attacks by

16    the army on the population anywhere in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  After

17    that, you said you hadn't asked me that.  And I wanted to say that you

18    had.  I answered you that I heard about this from the media.  We had

19    reports from the Sarajevo television.  We could watch it sometimes, and we

20    could listen to Radio Sarajevo all the time.  At the same time, we had

21    information from the same events from the Banja Luka television.  There

22    were clashes between the JNA and the population in Kupres, in Sarajevo, in

23    Tuzla.  But you asked me about army attacks on the non-Serbian population,

24    and that's what my reply was about.

25       Q.   Thank you.  So you did hear about Kupres.  Did you hear about


Page 5403

 1    Sijekovac?  The incidents involving that, or the massacre that occurred in

 2    Sijekovac.  Did you know about that?

 3       A.   I have heard of Sijekovac, but I can't remember exactly what

 4    happened.  I know there were a lot of news reports on the events on

 5    Kupres, the attempted exercises by the Yugoslav Army which turned into

 6    something else.  There were armed conflicts, but I don't know any details

 7    about this.

 8       Q.   Let me confine my question, then, sir, with respect to the

 9    Prijedor municipality, is it true that there were no attacks by the

10    military or police on any Muslim homes or territories within the Prijedor

11    municipality from April 30th, 1992, up until the incident that we've

12    exhaustively discussed at times, May 22nd, 1992?

13       A.   There was some shooting.

14       Q.   I'm not asking you about there were some shootings.  Did you hear,

15    sir, of the policeman that was shot, the Serbian policeman that was shot

16    on May 2nd, 1992, in the Prijedor Municipality?

17       A.   I think you have already asked me.  This I know that there were

18    some information on the radio about this, but I don't know the details.

19       Q.   Do you know of any details as to who the person was that shot the

20    Serbian policeman?  Do you recall the details regarding that?

21       A.   No, no.  I've already said that I don't know any details about

22    this.

23       Q.   Let me go back to Document Defence Exhibit 7A and B.  And we're

24    still on this first page which has the date on the top centre of the 30th

25    of April, 1992.  Sir, do you know what this delegation was that was formed


Page 5404

 1    and that met on or about April 30th, 1992?

 2       A.   No.  I can't give you a precise answer to this.  I know that there

 3    were several delegations in that period, and that we tried to send

 4    delegations to Prijedor and to Banja Luka, to try to talk to the

 5    government of the autonomous region and agree on peace in the area.  And

 6    also, with a representatives of the authorities in Prijedor.  So I can't

 7    be sure about this delegation.  Perhaps it was this delegation that went

 8    to negotiate in Prijedor, but from what it says here, I really can't tell

 9    you what this is about.

10       Q.   Turning to the next page on your document, which has on the top

11    right-hand corner page 346, and for our purposes, on the English version,

12    it starts on the bottom of the first page, 377, sir, that's a document

13    that is dated the 2nd of May, 1992.  Correct?

14       A.   Correct, it says here the 2nd of May, 1992.

15       Q.   Do you know who the individual is by the name of Nagib who appears

16    after the third item on the agenda, "miscellaneous," is referred to?  Do

17    you know who that individual is?

18       A.   I don't know who Nagib is.

19       Q.   It states here, sir, at least from the English translation, and

20    I'd invite you to read the Serbian one that "a lot of --" I mean the B/C/S

21    one.  "A lot of our people carry out attacks of provocation, Fazlic and

22    Hasan, and Didin yesterday fired in order to provoke."  And it goes on to

23    say:  "The police should immediately take such people to the police

24    station and disarm them."

25            You told us many times during your testimony that you were and


Page 5405

 1    would have been informed of certain instances that occurred in the

 2    Prijedor Municipality.  Were you, sir, at time informed that "a lot of our

 3    people carry out attacks of provocation"?  Were you informed of that at

 4    any time, sir?

 5       A.   Sir, I'm listening to the interpretation of what you're saying,

 6    and looking at the original text, and in the interpretation, the meaning

 7    is quite different.  I will read, and perhaps we will have a better

 8    interpretation the other way around into English.  It says here:  --

 9       Q.   Doesn't it say Puno, sir?  Does it say Puno?

10       A.   Puno, okay, okay.

11       Q.   Hold on.  I'd only ask you if you ask the B/C/S version, instead

12    of interpreting it --

13       A.   I quote, I quote.  I quote:  "A lot of our people are carrying out

14    provocations."  You said "are carrying out provocative attacks, which is

15    something quite different.  Further it says:  "Fazlic and Hasan Didin

16    yesterday fired shots on their own initiative as the police arrests and

17    disarms these immediately."  I can tell you at that time, anywhere it was

18    forbidden to fire shots anywhere, whether in front of your own house or

19    anywhere else.  There were no front lines, no military formations on the

20    ground, and it was simply not possible to carry out provocative attacks,

21    which is what you said.  I am trying to clarify for Their Honours and for

22    you what this is about.  There was a firm decision that any attempts to

23    fire shots should be punished, whether this took place in a cafe, in the

24    street, in front of one's house, or anywhere else.

25       Q.   Were you aware, sir, that acts of provocation were being committed


Page 5406

 1    by people such as Fazlic, Hasan, and Didin?

 2       A.   I know that in the town, in Kozarac, that some people were

 3    arrested, and the police confiscated weapons from some people because they

 4    fired shots in cafes or in front of their houses when they were drunk, and

 5    the police punished this wherever they could.  I know about this

 6    phenomenon.  This did not occur frequently.  It was not widespread.  But

 7    any kind of shooting was immediately punished.

 8       Q.   Did you, sir, partake in any of the hearings or investigation that

 9    led to the punishment of these individuals who were carrying out acts of

10    provocation?  Were you intimately involved in that at all?

11       A.   I attended several meetings, and I have already mentioned this, in

12    Kozarac.  We know what the duty of the police was, and we know what the

13    police were supposed to do.  I also know that some people were arrested

14    and disarmed.  These people were drunk.  I was not an eyewitness, but if a

15    police chief arrived and said, "in front of the cafe, we did this and

16    that," I had no reason not to believe him.

17       Q.   Do you know the individual who is identified on this date as

18    Suljo, and below I think you'll find his last name, I believe, Kozarusa.

19    Do you know Suljo Kozarusa?

20       A.   I don't know that Kozarusa is a last name.

21       Q.   It could mean that he's Suljo from Kozarusa.  Correct?

22       A.   It could mean that, yes.  That Suljo is from Kozarusa, but I can't

23    remember who that person might be, Suljo from Kozarusa.

24       Q.   Do you have any understanding of what the discussion regarding the

25    BH TO insignia was, and why there would be a misunderstanding with the


Page 5407

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 2  

 3  

 4  

 5  

 6  

 7  

 8  

 9  

10  

11  

12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.

14  

15  

16  

17  

18  

19  

20  

21  

22  

23  

24  

25  


Page 5408

 1    army?

 2       A.   At party meetings, and the meetings of the municipal functionaries

 3    who were not allowed to work in the municipal organs, there were many

 4    discussions as to what standpoint we should take, how we should try to

 5    solve this problem and protect the population from an attack by the

 6    Serbian Army.  Many options were discussed.  If the Court is interested in

 7    this, I can speak of it in greater detail.  There were many proposals that

 8    all these functionaries should meet outside the territory, and that the

 9    municipal organs should be set up somewhere else.  There were also

10    proposals that none of this should be done, but that we should simply

11    retain the status quo.  There were also proposals that regardless of the

12    negotiations, because there was an evident threat, we should start

13    preparing to defend the population.  There were also crazy proposals such

14    as writing a letter to the United Nations because we had no connections

15    with Sarajevo and so on and so forth.  So there was a whole range of

16    proposals, but ultimately it all boiled down to the fact that the existing

17    institutions should be put at the service of organising the defence, and

18    that all potential should be directed at trying to reach an agreement with

19    the Serbian side, that delegations should be sent to Banja Luka and to

20    Prijedor.  We used people's personal connections with Serbian

21    functionaries in Prijedor and Banja Luka.  Every means was explored to try

22    to establish contact.  That was the process that was taking place.

23            There were also proposals that a new municipality should be

24    established, but this was not adopted.  It remained just a proposal. There

25    were also many discussions as to how the Territorial Defence should be


Page 5409

 1    organised and extended because technically, the capacity was nonexistent.

 2    The headquarters of the Territorial Defence and all the records were in

 3    Prijedor.  So how could we organise a Territorial Defence without

 4    provoking an attack?  Simply by organising it.  This was a very complex

 5    situation, and we were looking for the best way to protect the population

 6    and to avoid giving a pretext to the Serbian side for an attack.  This

 7    whole process was going on at the time.

 8            Another thing, at the time there were Serbs from Kozarac who were

 9    members of these groups that discussed these matters.  They were from

10    Trnopolje, from Kozarusa, I think there were also some from Gornji

11    Jakupovici.  So it was not an ethnically pure or single -- it was not a

12    group coming from a -- coming from a single ethnic group.  So some of

13    these Serbs were included in the delegations I'm speaking about.

14       Q.   Thank you.  My question is, I don't have an understanding of the

15    insignia and how it can avoid or how there could be a misunderstanding

16    with the army.  On that quote, from Suljo from Kozarusa, my question to

17    you, sir, is which army is he referring to, and what is the

18    misunderstanding that he's having with the insignia that the BH TO was

19    creating?

20       A.   Suljo Kozarusa, I quote:  "We reject for now the insignia of the

21    Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to avoid

22    disagreements with the army."  At that time, that is, on the 2nd of May,

23    1992, the Yugoslav army still officially existed in this area.  And this

24    is in line with what I have been saying.  We wanted to avoid the fact that

25    we were organising to prevent it from provoking the army, so one of the


Page 5410

 1    proposals was to reject the insignia of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia

 2    and Herzegovina.  But things were happening very fast.  There were no

 3    uniforms; there was nothing.  I know that people asked the civilian

 4    protection to give them clothing which could be adapted for the

 5    Territorial Defence.  And of course, there were no insignia.  But this was

 6    a standpoint because the Yugoslav army still existed at the time and did

 7    not recognise the Territorial Defence in Kozarac, but only the Territorial

 8    Defence that had placed itself under their command in Prijedor.

 9       Q.   You state, sir, that there were no uniforms, but doesn't Suljo

10    several lines down also tell us that "you're getting the uniforms on

11    Monday," several days later?

12       A.   Yes.  I have just explained part of this.  The regular Territorial

13    Defence numbered a very small number of men.  We extended it.  I don't

14    know the exact number, but it was perhaps 2 or 3.000 men.  I don't know

15    the exact number because I wasn't part of it.  I know that at the

16    meetings, we discussed the problem of how to clothe these men.  Otherwise,

17    they would be in T-shirts, jackets if there was an attack.  So then they

18    asked the firefighters to give them their reserve uniforms, and then the

19    civilian protection, which had blue overalls, and also blue workers'

20    overalls from a company.  And it was agreed that these should be dyed so

21    that the greatest number of possible people would have uniforms.

22    Preparations for this was made but whether this was actually carried out,

23    I don't know.  I know that these uniforms never arrived in the area of

24    Trnopolje where I was.

25       Q.   Do you know the gentleman by the name of Kenjar and the last name


Page 5411

 1    starting with the letter "S?"  Do you know the individual identified on

 2    May 2nd, 1992, as Kenjar with the last name "S"?  Or it could be actually

 3    his last name is Kenjar and his first name starts with the letter "S".

 4       A.   Kenjar, it must be Sakib Kenjar from Kamicani, probably.  I

 5    remember a person called Sakib Kenjar.

 6       Q.   Do you know what his role was on or about April and May of 1992 in

 7    either Kozara or in the Prijedor Municipality?

 8       A.   He was in the municipal board of the SDA, and I think for a time,

 9    he was the treasurer or the secretary.  I'm not sure.  But in any case, he

10    was on the municipal board and of the local board of the Kamicani SDA.  He

11    was a member of the Executive Board for a time, I just remembered.

12       Q.   It states here in part that Mr. Kenjar states in --

13            THE INTERPRETER:  Can you slow down a bit, please.

14            MR. OSTOJIC:

15       Q.   -- "Some guys are provoking too much."  Do you see that?

16       A.   Yes, I see that.  "Some guys in Kozarac are provoking too much."

17       Q.   Who?  Do you know?

18       A.   I don't know, but I assume he's referring to the same people as

19    the previous person you asked me about, Nagib or whatever his name is.

20       Q.   Also whatever on that date, Beco Medunjanin, he states that they

21    were preparing the units possibly or maybe for inspection.  Do you see

22    that?  He's the second one after Nagib, under Suljo.

23       A.   Beco says here:  "I checked about Muharem, and it was Enes Grcin

24    who fired shots.  Improve organisation so as not to overburden the men."

25    The issue of insignia, let's wait a little and prepare the units.  Maybe


Page 5412

 1    for the inspection."

 2       Q.   Can you tell me what -- can you tell me again who this Beco was,

 3    what his function or capacity was on or about May 2nd, 1992?

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5            MR. OSTOJIC:

 6       Q.   Sorry, I have to restate the question, Mr. Sejmenovic.  Can you

 7    tell me who this Beco was and what his function and capacity was on or

 8    about May 2nd, 1992?

 9       A.   He was the secretary of the secretariat of defence.  So he was --

10    he held a post in the municipality of Prijedor.

11       Q.   Do you, sir, have any idea what units he was talking about when he

12    said he "should prepare the units for inspection"?

13       A.   In the units of the Territorial Defence, well, that was his

14    department.  He was in charge of the Territorial Defence and carrying out

15    the mobilisation.  That was his function before the war.

16       Q.   And who was to conduct the inspection?

17       A.   The commanders of the Territorial Defence, if there was an

18    inspection.

19       Q.   On the next page of this same date, yours page 345; for the

20    English translation, it appears on page 325 on the top right-hand corner,

21    there's an Avdo who makes a statement regarding - somewhat illegible -

22    regarding the receiving of two machine-guns and two automatic rifles.  Do

23    you see that, sir?

24       A.   Yes, yes, I do.

25       Q.   Do you know or can you make out from whom did Avdo receive these


Page 5413

 1    two machine-guns and two automatic rifles?

 2       A.   I don't know.  Maybe from other local communes, or maybe they were

 3    bought from Serbs.  But in any case, it was according to the Territorial

 4    Defence establishment.

 5       Q.   Suljo on May 2nd, 1992, states:  "If Kozarusa does not receive

 6    help, it will surrender all the checkpoints."  Do you see that?

 7       A.   Yes, I do.

 8       Q.   How many checkpoints were there in Kozarusa on or about May 2nd,

 9    1992?

10       A.   I don't know.  I don't know what the Territorial Defence was

11    planning or how it functioned.  I don't know that.  There was not a single

12    public checkpoint.  But as for possible preparations for an attack, that's

13    something else.  Those were the regular plans of the Territorial Defence

14    which is how it was supposed to function under certain circumstances.  But

15    I don't know that.

16       Q.   Now, below that, Beco, the same individual we discussed earlier,

17    that's the secretary of the secretariat I believe as you described him,

18    he's discussing what seems to be or at least translated for us,

19    Mr. Sejmenovic, the republic Crisis Staff.  Do you see that, sir?

20       A.   Yes, I do.  This is a Crisis Staff organised by area, by zone.  It

21    was organised according to zones.  So that it was the zone Crisis Staff.

22       Q.   That's what the RKS stands for, correct?

23       A.   Yes, yes.  Because that was the term that the TO used.  In the way

24    it functioned, it was split up into zones.

25       Q.   Down how many zones were or who the members of these regional or


Page 5414

 1    zone Crisis Staffs were, on or about May 2nd, 1992?

 2       A.   I don't know.  You should ask someone from the TO, who was part of

 3    the TO then.

 4       Q.   In any event, you were familiar that that Crisis Staff existed for

 5    some time prior to May 2nd, 1992.  Correct?

 6       A.   Sir, there was a Territorial Defence.  It existed.  It was ordered

 7    by the republican staff of the TO to begin preparing for defence.  How

 8    they were acceded, well, there is a procedure.  And I really do not know

 9    the details.  I know the term, the organisational term, that it should be

10    organised on the basis of zones.  How many zones there were, how they were

11    linked up, I really do not know.  I would tell you gladly if I knew.

12       Q.   Maybe you could help me with this detail, why would Beco propose

13    that money be given for gas so that Alic and Koza can move a lot, and

14    because they have been using their own gas, in essence, petrol, during

15    some of their work?

16       A.   Don't know.  Really.

17       Q.   Do you know if this Koza that he's referring to here, do you know

18    if that's actually the individual who we've referenced before as Kole or

19    Kolina's group, who happened to be the leader of a paramilitary group that

20    was operating and located in the Prijedor Municipality on or about April

21    through July of 1992?

22       A.   Kole, if you're referring to him, he was in the TO.  Alic, there

23    was also an Alic in the Territorial Defence.  Well, the term "paramilitary

24    formation," it is a relative term.  It is a paramilitary formation for the

25    Serbs.  And for us, it was Territorial Defence.  And it was a regular


Page 5415

 1    formation for us.  Therefore, to make things clear...

 2       Q.   Now, if you turn, sir, on the next page, 344 of your B/C/S

 3    version, on the centre of that page, there's a meeting that's held prior

 4    to May 10th, 1992.  Do you see that, sir?

 5       A.   May 10th, 1992.

 6       Q.   Right above that.  Do you see that?

 7       A.   Under what number?  Are you referring to number 4?

 8       Q.   The whole section there that appears on page 344, prior to the

 9    date of May 10th, 1992.

10       A.   Okay.  Meaning, a meeting was held.  Conclusions were brought. And

11    in the meanwhile, a discussion went on in respect of any other business.

12    Any other business included a discussion on four items, four conclusions

13    were adopted.  One, tomorrow to set up a zone Crisis Staff [Methods of

14    work of the RKS.]  Two, there was no fuel for the fire brigade, the fire

15    brigade had no fuel, no gasoline.  Three, Bahonja:  The staff must have

16    the exact number of men and the methods of work.  Problem:  Here we can

17    swear that this supraparty, body, and that we should act along those

18    lines.  What is reaches going on air and into the city, and then in other

19    forms as well.  The aim is to preserve everyone's life."

20       Q.   Okay.  Go ahead.  Please proceed.

21       A.   Four, Kemo:  "Please exclude me from further work.  My health is

22    not well, is not good enough and I have a family problem."  And then it

23    goes on to say:  "Not accepted."

24       Q.   Thank you.  Now, directing your attention following this on page

25    343, which is the continuation of the May 10th, 1992, meeting, can you


Page 5416

 1    read for us, please, the first and second full sentence on that page which

 2    seems to be missing from the English translation, Your Honour.  So we're

 3    going to ask the witness to read that.  Starting with the word --

 4       A.   "The question of weapons in the case of citizens that are not

 5    giving them up and are not working, Suljo:  On Monday, the military police

 6    will be clothed."  He's probably referring to the military police or the

 7    war police.

 8       Q.   I'm sorry, sir.  Are you on page 343?

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, I apologise.

11       Q.   Are you, sir, on page 343 of the B/C/S text?

12       A.   I've found the page 343 now.

13       Q.   It follows from the May 10th, 1992, meeting, and I would ask you

14    to read the first two full sentences.  I think the first word starts with

15    "treba" or "treba vidjeti".  If you can read that for us.

16       A.    My apologies.  I will read slowly because it is not very legible.

17    Some parts are easily read.  "We must see the degree of sincerity of the

18    other side.  We have made the greatest amount of concessions.  We have

19    disobeyed the republic, because we said that we would counter this in a

20    democratic fashion."

21       Q.   Do you know what the reference to that is, sir?

22       A.   I cannot be quite sure, but I believe that what is being said,

23    that we did not organise TOs on the basis of the republic staff from

24    Sarajevo's orders.  But we put this off given the circumstances we were

25    in.  We tried to prolong this time, to wait and to try to have talks with


Page 5417

 1    the Serb authorities.  Perhaps this is referring to the fact the TO

 2    insignia were not put on -- given to provocations.  It can mean many

 3    things.  I'm not quite sure which.

 4       Q.   You're at the meeting, weren't you?  If you look a little further

 5    down the page, it identifies a person by the name of Sejmenovic.  Do you

 6    remember as you sit here, sir, being at a meeting with these people and

 7    having these discussions?

 8       A.   Yes.  On the basis of what I have read so far and what you have

 9    asked me about so far and skimmed through, it seems to me that this refers

10    to some of the meetings that I attended, given the context of these

11    minutes.  It seems to me that these were those meetings, although these

12    meetings were quite similar amongst each other, and it's difficult to

13    distinguish between the one or the second or third meeting.  This name

14    here I think, Sejmenovic, that this refers to me.

15       Q.   With respect to that, sir, do you know who kept these minutes?  Do

16    you know if it was a Serb, a Muslim, or a Croat who kept the minutes of

17    these meetings?

18       A.   I don't know exactly.  At these meetings were predominantly people

19    of non-Serb ethnicity, but there were Serbs also, but who kept records, I

20    really cannot remember.  I can note that the person was not very literate

21    from what I can see how the records were kept.  But I don't know who it

22    was.

23       Q.   I have a couple questions about different parts of this page on

24    the B/C/S version 343.  And I'm going to ask you to read it if I may

25    because your name does appear on it, and then I'd like to see what it is


Page 5418

 1    you say in response to that.  Can you first please read the remainder of

 2    that page as you've already started.

 3       A.   What I had allegedly -- the part saying Sejmenovic and the colon?

 4       Q.   No, immediately before that, please.

 5            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  May I just interrupt for a moment.

 6    Mr. Sejmenovic, I have to recall, first of all, and you said this in the

 7    beginning, that it's in principle your duty to answer all the questions,

 8    and you do it under the solemn declaration. On the other hand, I don't

 9    know what will happen now under the cross-examination.  But just to be on

10    the safe side in this case, in your safe side, in your interests, I have

11    to recall that it is, of course, also your right not to answer those

12    questions where you have reasonable grounds to believe that this could be

13    amount to self-incrimination.  Do you understand this admonition?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand what you're

15    saying, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  It's just in your own interest.  So please

17    proceed.

18            MR. OSTOJIC:

19       Q.   So sir, you read for us on page 343 the first two sentences of

20    that page.  I'm just asking you to proceed and read the entire page up

21    until and including what has been attributed as comments made by you,

22    relating to approximately May 10th, 1992 as best as we can see.

23       A.   So -- shall I read out what I said?

24       Q.   No.  If you can just continue with --

25       A.   To continue, all right.  Thank you.


Page 5419

 1            "So we decided to dissipate the Republic because we said that we

 2    would oppose in a democratic way."  Well, this I can't read very well.

 3    Two words I cannot read.  "One, restriction in these concessions exist.

 4    They are not giving 12 policemen to walk around Kozarac without insignia.

 5            "One concession, this is only one concession, and they are not

 6    giving it to us.  As regards Lisbon, they are giving nothing.  Some

 7    officers from Banja Luka, from the Banja Luka Corps, do not wish to

 8    remain.  And there has been a rift.  It is positive that the impression

 9    gained was that we were not prepared, but they themselves were in fear.

10    And therefore, they are in a hurry to present an ultimatum."  Something

11    along those lines.  That is what is written, I think.

12            Shall I go on reading? "Kemo F.:  What would have happened if we

13    hadn't gone yesterday?  They would have held a meeting.  And they would

14    have probably carried out the action.  But then we got five days, five

15    extra days.

16            "Hankic:  You're proceeding from the fact that you're protecting

17    the region of Banja Luka, the president of which is Mirza.  As regards

18    Mirza" -- this, I cannot read.  It's illegible.  "We will be saved if the

19    entire area is -- rises.  They know that they are ruling.  Mirza does not

20    allow authority to be divided.  Their authority must be respected.  They

21    will come by force and accept authority and will remain in Kozarac.

22            "Ilijaz:  Not to interrupt."  This is something I cannot read.

23    It's not legible.  "Sivac:  The main staff of the BH TO exists in

24    Prijedor, and Kozarac is member of that staff in Prijedor."  "Husein:  I

25    would be happy, I suppose, if this were true.  If someone were to come to


Page 5420

 1    disarm the police today, I wonder where the command is."

 2            "Sejmenovic:  There was a public call to the army officers to

 3    abandon the ranks of the JNA.  These people linked up," and it seems that

 4    it says "and now they are contacting amongst themselves and doing their

 5    job.  No one is contesting the work of the negotiating group, and it

 6    should be continued."

 7       Q.   I know there's more, sir, but I want to ask you a couple

 8    questions.

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:

11       Q.   I know there's more from, sir, and we are going to discuss that.

12    I'd like just at this point ask you a couple questions.  On the first

13    paragraph it discusses the Lisbon talks.  Were you familiar on or about

14    May of 1992 what the negotiations were at Lisbon?

15       A.   I don't know about the details.  I think that these were

16    negotiations conducted by the Sarajevo officials under the sponsorship of

17    the international community.  There were negotiations to resolve the

18    crisis in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19       Q.   Why does this individual -- to the best of your knowledge, since

20    apparently you were at the meeting, why does this individual believe that

21    it is positive that the other side presumably "thinks we are unprepared"?

22    Do you have any idea what they were referencing there?

23       A.   I don't know.

24       Q.   Could it be that they were telling the people who were at this

25    meeting that "we're fooling the other side into thinking we're unprepared,


Page 5421

 1    but in reality we are prepared.  We have our TO set up.  We have all our

 2    weapons and armaments.  We even have our uniforms that were brought in."

 3    Could it be that at all, sir, that there was a greater state of

 4    preparedness than that as you've previously described?

 5       A.   I don't know, sir.  I know that there was a tremendous fear

 6    prevailing then.  I know that much.  And one tried at every cost to avoid

 7    clashes.  And one tried, if the Serb army were to attack, that those parts

 8    of the TO should avoid a massacre.  And we also hoped that at the state

 9    level or the state itself, or the international community would come up

10    with a solution because this seemed possible and probably on the basis of

11    the news we heard.  What exactly happened during those negotiations, I do

12    not know.  I know that we had in -- before us a force and an experience

13    that held us in fear.  What this person had in mind when he said that, I

14    really do not know.

15       Q.   Do you know the individual who appears a couple names before you,

16    Mr. Hankic?  Do you know who that is?

17       A.   I don't know who Mr. Hankic is.  You already asked me.  If I saw

18    the person, I might recognise him, but the surname means nothing to me.

19       Q.   When he's referencing "Mirza" there, do you know which Mirza he's

20    referencing?

21       A.   Mirza Mujadzic, president of the party.  This is reflected in the

22    sentence, and it is obvious.

23       Q.   I thought so, too.  But I didn't want to be presumptuous.  It

24    states there that "Mirza did not allow the powers to be divided."  Do you

25    see that, sir?


Page 5422

 1       A.   Yes, I can see that.

 2       Q.   My question to you is it true, as Mr. Hankic said, that Mirza, the

 3    leader of the SDA at that time "refused to allow the powers to be divided

 4    in the Prijedor Municipality"?  You were at the meeting.  Did you speak up

 5    later and say:  "It's not true, Mirza did not disallow us to divide the

 6    powers, in fact, he always was willing and cooperative and made all sorts

 7    of concessions to the SDS, regarding these offices or powers?"

 8       A.   Sir, this is not records from a party meeting.  There were people

 9    from different parties there and of different ethnicities.  I believe that

10    there were members of other ethnic groups also there.  And everyone was

11    entitled to say his piece, to say that if someone was working well or not

12    working well.  I cannot go into all of this.  This is what this person

13    thought, and this is what he said, if we are to believe the records.  And

14    this is what the person believed.  The aim of this was not to discuss

15    things that you are asking me about.

16       Q.   I'm just curious to see if I can refresh your recollection of

17    this.  But your comment there, it talks about resignations of officers, et

18    cetera, from the former JNA or from the JNA.  Do you recall making that

19    statement, sir?

20       A.   I remember that the leadership of BH, its presidency composed of

21    all ethnicities, called, invited the officers of the JNA to place

22    themselves on the side of BH.  If that is what you are referring to.  And

23    a number of officers were designated and obeyed this.  And this was the

24    position and call of the authorities of BH, and this is a well-known

25    thing.


Page 5423

 1       Q.   Let me ask you:  The number of officers who designated or obeyed

 2    this, were they Serbian or were they Muslim ethnicity who followed the

 3    order of the federal institution which they belonged, namely, the JNA, or

 4    do you know?

 5       A.   There were Serb officers, Croat officers, and Muslim officers. And

 6    later on, there was a general -- one of them became a general during the

 7    war.

 8       Q.   You mention here the presidency which was composed of all

 9    ethnicities.  The presidency you're referring to is the presidency of the

10    Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Correct?

11       A.   Yes.  Yes.

12       Q.   Help us because you mention that:  When did Alija Izetbegovic

13    declare that he was -- declared it a War Presidency.  Do you know?

14       A.   I do not know that.

15       Q.   As you sit here, sir, being a member of the parliament

16    representing the Prijedor Municipality, you have no idea when the leader

17    of your party, the SDA, who was president at that time decided to call a

18    War Presidency?  You have no idea when it happened?  In 1991, 1992, 1993?

19    Is that what you're telling us?

20       A.   While I was in the BH parliament, this was not proclaimed.  I

21    believe in March or February or March 1992, I was in Sarajevo for the last

22    time at a parliament session.  And it hadn't been proclaimed then.  So in

23    the period while I could go to Sarajevo and attend the meetings there, as

24    far as I can remember, this was not proclaimed.

25       Q.   And thank you for clarifying that you left in February or March of


Page 5424

 1    1992, the parliament.  But did you hear from the radio, because I know you

 2    shared a lot about what you heard from the SDS side and a lot of what you

 3    heard on the radio and the television, I suppose.  Did you hear at any

 4    time any proclamation or any announcement or declaration that Alija

 5    Izetbegovic is creating a War Presidency, prior to April of 1992?  Did you

 6    ever hear that?

 7       A.   I remember that it was proclaimed, but I don't remember when.

 8    Something -- I think that something like that was heard, but I don't

 9    remember when.

10       Q.   Thank you.  Back to the JNA and the officers who left the JNA, is

11    it --

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Sorry.  May we have a break of half an hour now.

13            MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you for your understanding.

15            The trial stands adjourned until 5.45.

16                          --- Recess taken at 5.14 p.m.

17                          --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.

18            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please be seated.

19            Please proceed.

20            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic.  Quickly, a question on the material

22    that was provided under your name on this document on page 343.  Is it

23    true, sir, that the officers from the JNA who left and came to Kozarac

24    were, in fact, a gentleman by the name of Sead Cirkin, correct, who was a

25    captain?  Was he one of those officers?


Page 5425

 1       A.   Correct, Sead Cirkin was there.

 2       Q.   And he was one of those officers that you were referencing in the

 3    comments that are attributed to you on page 343 of Exhibit D7A and B

 4    respectfully?

 5       A.   Probably.  Sead Cirkin was in the JNA.  He was in the war in

 6    Croatia, and when that war was over, he came home because he is from

 7    Kozarusa, as far as I can remember.  He was wounded in the leg in the war

 8    in Croatia.  And he went to recuperate in Kozarusa.  His leg was all

 9    bandaged up.  I was probably referring to Cirkin, although there were very

10    few active-duty JNA officers in Kozarac.  I don't know the exact number,

11    but probably two or three.

12       Q.   Do you know if another one was one by the name of Selimbegovic,

13    who was a former JNA officer who quit and then joined ranks in Kozarac?

14       A.   I don't know what the other two were called.  I know about Cirkin,

15    and I know that he was in the town of Kozarac itself.  How he fitted into

16    the whole picture, I don't know.  I don't know the details.

17       Q.   If I may just continue with document, Exhibit D7B and A

18    respectively, I may just highlight some of it in the interests of time, if

19    I can direct your attention to the very next page, page 342, and the

20    gentleman identified as Beco, I'd like to know because it's not

21    translated, or I don't have it, what it is exactly that he says there.

22    Again, that's on the B/C/S version, page 342, top right corner.

23       A.   "Beco:  Tomorrow, we have to know from --"

24       Q.   I need to interrupt.  I'm sorry, Mr. Sejmenovic.  My question

25    really relates to the very last entry by this gentleman, Beco, towards the


Page 5426

 1    bottom of the page.  You're welcome to read the whole thing, but my

 2    question is only with respect to that.

 3       A.   "As long as the people have weapons, they will not recognise the

 4    authorities."  That's what it says here.

 5       Q.   Do you have any idea, sir, having been at this meeting since it

 6    follows the comments being attributed to you on the previous page, what

 7    Beco was referring to when he made that statement?

 8       A.   I don't know.  I can't say exactly what he was referring to.

 9       Q.   If we can go to the next page, sir, page 341 of the B/C/S text, if

10    you can just identify for me the date, and then I'll ask you some

11    questions on that.

12       A.   The date here is very unclear.  It says 4, 3, and 5, 1992.  So I

13    really don't know what date it is.  Is it the 4th of May, 1992?  Don't

14    know.

15       Q.   Right.  Maybe you could help me:  Do you know of these meetings

16    that you can see here, the various people similar to the people in the

17    meeting in which you attended, do you know if, in fact, they met at any

18    time as early as March 4th, 1992?

19       A.   No, no.  No, I don't know.

20       Q.   There's also a 5 written above the 3.  Would it be fair to say

21    that indeed, this is a meeting that occurred on or about May 4th, 1992?

22    Correct?

23       A.   It's possible, but I'm not sure.  Because the date is not stated

24    clearly, so I don't know that.

25       Q.   And paragraph 3 of that, and for the Court and for the record, I


Page 5427

 1    believe the English translation appears on the English text with --

 2    bearing the number 323 on the top right-hand corner.

 3            Can you read paragraph 3 for us from that page.

 4       A.   It says here under 3:  "Report on the stay of members of the KS

 5    TO, and the SUP, and the proposal for a checkpoint on the main road."

 6       Q.   Do you know, sir, what checkpoint they are referring to there?

 7       A.   I don't know what this date is exactly.  I know that in early May,

 8    the Serbian army set up a checkpoint and brought a tank on to the main

 9    road.  Whether it refers to that, I don't know.  I simply can't answer

10    this.  I know that they talked about this, that the representatives of

11    Kozarac asked for that tank to be removed because it was facing the

12    direction of Kozarac.  And some talks about this were held.  And later on,

13    an order came from Prijedor for the tank to withdraw.  However, I can't

14    say anything specific about this because I'm not sure what it's about.

15       Q.   Below that, I think if you see the reference to Mr. Cirkin, that

16    he should take over the RKS, do you see that there?

17       A.   In the middle of the page or near the bottom?

18       Q.   Right in the middle of the page where there seems to be a question

19    mark in the B/C/S text.  See the question mark on the left-hand side?

20       A.   Medunjanin:  I propose, if Cirkin is accepted, that he should take

21    over the RKS.

22       Q.   Do you know, sir, if Mr. Cirkin agreed and that he did take over

23    the RKS, or "S" as you say?

24       A.   I don't know that.

25       Q.   If you can follow on that same page, 341, the very last entry, it


Page 5428

 1    seems to be comments attributed to Mr. Cirkin.

 2            MR. OSTOJIC:  And for the Court, I think the text appears on the

 3    following page, page 322.

 4       Q.   Can you read what it says there, sir.

 5       A.   It says here:  "Cirkin:  To get to work, call on all R. officers."

 6       Q.   Do you know what the "R. officers" stands for?  Reserve officers,

 7    could it be?

 8       A.   Possible.  Possible.

 9       Q.   Who does Mr. Cirkin refer to as R. officers?  Do you think at that

10    time, having left the JNA, does he mean the JNA officers or officers from

11    a different entity?

12       A.   Don't know that.

13       Q.   On the following page of that document, sir, page 340 on the B/C/S

14    text, there seems to be a conclusion.  And it appears on 322 of the

15    English text.  Can you tell me what the conclusion reads, sir?

16       A.   "Conclusion:  For Hamdija Kahrimanovic to be coopted in the

17    Kozarac Territorial Defence staff."

18       Q.   Do you know who this individual is?

19       A.   I've heard about Hamdija Kahrimanovic, but I don't know him

20    personally.

21       Q.   On the top of that page, 340, there seems to be another individual

22    whose name I can't make out.  Sujo.  Do you see that under numeric number

23    2, or Sujo?

24       A.   I don't know.  It's possible that it's Suljo, or maybe Sudo.

25       Q.   That individual seems to be proposing four men to form an


Page 5429

 1    information group, Memic, Saric, Mujagic, and Jasin Fazlic?  Is that what

 2    it seems to indicate there?

 3       A.   And Bahonjic.

 4       Q.   Sorry, that wasn't translated.  Thank you.  Was this the same

 5    Jasin Fazlic who was identified earlier in the minutes or in this document

 6    D7A who was accused of provoking or carrying out acts of provocation with

 7    Hasan and Didin?  Do you know if that's the same Fazlic?

 8       A.   I don't know.  I don't know that.

 9       Q.   If I can direct your attention, sir, to the next page, and we'll

10    get to, I think, where you made some comments.  But on page 339, can you

11    read for me, sir, what seems to be written under the name of Pasic, which

12    is towards the second half of the document?

13       A.   "Pasic:  I agree with the discussion and with the comrades.  We

14    are under occupation.  The occupation authorities are imposing their

15    control over us."  Then there is something that's illegible.  And in the

16    next row, it says:  "To accept it."  And then another illegible word.

17    "Time or war.  The establishing of a municipality is nothing."  I can't

18    read the first word here, but then it goes on to say:  "As for these

19    insignia," and then this is also illegible.  And they say that "this is an

20    order from BL.  It seems that they are willing to give up their symbols if

21    we go for a war, many will die.  But a municipality is not the solution.

22    They claim that the army will not get involved.  We must try" and it's

23    possible it says here "to try to gain time to engage in tactics."

24       Q.   On the next page, sir, page 338 --

25            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.


Page 5430

 1            MR. OSTOJIC:  Apologise.

 2       Q.   On the next page, sir, page 338, I'd like you to read the text

 3    where your name appears with comments attributed to you.

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:  And I believe, Your Honour, that appears on page 319

 5    of the English text.

 6       Q.   Can you start from the beginning of the page, sir.

 7       A.   It says here:  "Sejmenovic:" --

 8       Q.   Can you read the paragraph right before that as well for us.  I

 9    apologise for interrupting you.

10       A.   "If someone attacks me," and this part is illegible, an illegible

11    word, "I will," well, it looks like "scratch him with my ring," but I'm

12    not sure about this at all.  "They" and then there is another illegible

13    word, "that in Kozarac there are thousands of weapons.  In Svrakino Selo

14    near Sarajevo, they had agreed about everything, and they had handed them

15    in.  They collected them and took them to Serbia.  First, it's the police,

16    then it's the turn of the Territorial Defence, and then of the citizenry.

17            "The children in school are saying that Kozarac will pay for the

18    communities."  Then it says:  "Sejmenovic:"

19       Q.   Before you read what you read here, Mr. Sejmenovic,.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21            MR. OSTOJIC:

22       Q.   Thank you. Before you read what is attributed to you, at any time,

23    sir, having been at this meeting or do you recall ever a discussion that

24    there were thousands of weapons that were being discussed?

25       A.   I don't remember that.  I don't remember, and also this part is


Page 5431

 1    illegible.  I don't know who some of these sentences refer to.

 2       Q.   Do you recall at all whether there was a discussion in early May

 3    that the children were still attending school, even after the takeover, as

 4    seems to be the indication by whoever made this comment?  Do you remember

 5    that discussion?

 6       A.   The children went to school for another week at most after the

 7    takeover of power.  I've already talked about that.  In Prijedor, it was

 8    still possible to go on, somehow, up to mid-May.  I don't remember now --

 9    I don't remember anything more about it now.

10       Q.   Help me with this:  In 1992, when did the grammar schools close

11    for the summer, do you remember?

12       A.   I don't remember exactly.

13       Q.   Can you just proceed and please read the comments that are

14    attributed to you, sir, on that page 338.

15       A.   "Sejmenovic:  I can see two options.  Without insignia or with

16    insignia on the police.  But the question arises of the safety of people.

17    Who will defend them after the disarming if we hand over our weapons?"

18    Then there are two illegible words.  And two illegible words.  And then it

19    says:  "Many will suffer if we" -- something illegible --" time, we have

20    to invest everything.  I'm not in favour of leaving people without

21    protection.  Rather, I am in favour of at least trying to defend

22    ourselves."

23       Q.   Do you, sir, remember making -- I think that's the end of the

24    comments attributed to you.  Correct?

25       A.   Yes.


Page 5432

 1       Q.   Do you, sir, remember making these statements and actually telling

 2    the people that you would rather you tried to defend yourselves?

 3       A.   I don't remember that.

 4       Q.   Did you at any time, sir, take the position of the items that are

 5    raised in the comments that are attributed to you on page 338?

 6       A.   It's possible that I took part in some discussions, but this was

 7    an area I did not participate in actively, because I was neither a member

 8    of the police, nor of the Territorial Defence, so that I rarely took the

 9    floor at these meetings.  And I was not part of the structures that were

10    dealing with these issues directly.

11       Q.   Having reviewed this document, can you tell us which structure

12    this was, whether it was the structure of the police or the structure of

13    the Territorial Defence or a combination of both?

14       A.   I think there were both, people from the municipalities, the

15    Territorial Defence, the police, the party.  I was present as the deputy

16    at the republic level.

17       Q.   Lower on that page 338, there's a Bahonjic, who is also

18    essentially quoted, or commented about things that he said.  Could you

19    read that to me.  It's on the same page that your name appears, apparently

20    at the same meeting in which you attended.  Can you read that for us,

21    please.

22       A.   It says here:  "Bahonjic:  If Kozarac intends to hand over their

23    weapons, let them do so.  The people from" probably "Jakupovici," and then

24    the next part is illegible.

25       Q.   Does it look like "ce ubite" [sic]?


Page 5433

 1       A.   "With both, or with eyes," and then let Kozarac -- doesn't say

 2    anything further.

 3       Q.   I'm sorry, sir, I interrupted you.  After the area or the town

 4    that they referenced, Jakupovici, what does it say?  Can you read that for

 5    us?  That the people from Jakupovici will what?

 6       A.   It says here, at least that's what it looks like to me, "kill"

 7    either POV or PAR, but the copy is not completely legible.  And then it

 8    says either "with O-B-A" or with O-K-A, meaning both or eyes, and then it

 9    says: "Let Kozarac."

10       Q.   Do you recall in a meeting in which you were present whether

11    Mr. Bahonjic actually made that statement regarding the people from

12    Jakupovici?

13       A.   I don't remember that.

14       Q.   Do you know, sir, if the incident that occurred on May 24th, 1994,

15    at the main road leading from Banja Luka to Prijedor whether there was an

16    incident in the town that's located near the town that's referenced by

17    Mr. Bahonjic?

18       A.   According to the information on the radio, we heard about two

19    incidents, one in Kozarusa and one in Jakupovici.  In Jakupovici on the

20    road.  Jakupovici is a very broad area.  There is upper or Gornji

21    Jakupovici or lower or Donja Jakupovici.  A group of hamlets on one side

22    and a group of hamlets on the other side of the Prijedor/Kozarac/Banja

23    Luka Road.  The incident where they allegedly attempted to stop some

24    tanks, that's what I think happened, this took place in Jakupovici,

25    according to the information we heard on the radio or from the Territorial


Page 5434

 1    Defence, and this happened on the road in Jakupovici.  Whether it refers

 2    to this or not, I don't know.

 3       Q.   And as you sit here having been at the meeting, you have no

 4    recollection of that discussion at all.  Correct?

 5       A.   Sir, these are minutes from a meeting.  The meeting went on.

 6    There were discussions, and the person taking the minutes summarised what

 7    was said in a few sentences.  I don't remember every detail.  There were

 8    several meetings and they are all very similar to each other.  Similar

 9    topics were discussed.  I could tell you but I can't improvise.  I

10    remember some things that were said, and I don't remember others.

11       Q.   The military convoy that was attacked on May 24th, 1992, at the

12    checkpoint at Jakupovici, did it strike you as being odd that there was a

13    discussion at a meeting where Mr. Bahonjic actually described what the

14    citizens would do from that area if they had to surrender their arms?

15       A.   I can't confirm.  This sentence is not clear to me.  I don't

16    remember anyone saying that someone should be killed because they are or

17    are not handing in their weapons.  I don't remember that.

18       Q.   If I may just try to quickly get through this document at the very

19    least, on page 336 of the B/C/S text, towards the bottom of that text,

20    sir, Beco again is quoted or words are attributed to this Beco.  Can you

21    read to us what at the bottom or near the bottom of that page Beco had

22    apparently said at this meeting, which, I believe, if you turn to the page

23    prior would have been on May 5th, 1992.

24       A.   Yes.  On the previous page, it does say the 5th of May, 1992.  And

25    Beco says here:  "The SDS is conducting negotiations exclusively with the


Page 5435

 1    SDA, and not with the local commune.  I propose that we wait for

 2    tomorrow's meeting of the SDA and to see what their standpoint is."  And

 3    finally:  "To hold a meeting of all the citizens and let them express

 4    their views."

 5       Q.   So does this, sir, at all refresh your recollection as to whether

 6    there were many and, in fact, multiple meetings that the SDS called and

 7    had with the SDA during the time immediately after the takeover on April

 8    30th, 1992, and it was not, sir, as you claim the only meeting on May 1st,

 9    and then the subsequent meeting in mid-May 1992?

10       A.   I was at the last meeting with the SDS, and I spoke about that

11    here.  As for this meeting, the one Beco is referring to here, I think

12    this refers to an SDA meeting at which standpoints were to be reached

13    which were then to be discussed with the SDS.  One such meeting was held

14    at Hambarine, and that might have been in the first week of May or

15    thereabouts.  I remember at that time individuals tried to establish

16    contact, and it's possible that a meeting was formally held with the SDS

17    at that time.  But I was not a member of any delegation as far as these

18    meetings are concerned.  What I do know is that I was tasked with being

19    present at one such meeting.

20       Q.   And if I can direct your attention, sir, to the next page, page

21    335, and the centre of the page seems to bear a date of May 6th, 1992.

22    Would you be able to read the second and third entries that are made on

23    that date.

24       A.   Number 2:  "The replacement of the existing members of the KS".

25       Q.   What does that mean, "KS"?  Means Crisis Staff, right?  We


Page 5436

 1    interpreted it several times here --

 2       A.   It could mean Crisis Staff.  It could also mean the staff command.

 3    I'm not sure about that.

 4       Q.   And the next paragraph, please.

 5       A.   "To go to a meeting with an announcement --" I can't read this

 6    word here.  It's illegible to me.  But underneath, it says:  "Conclusions

 7    or conclusion" or something similar.  And then possibly "proposals," but

 8    I'm not sure.  And then, under number 4, it says:  "Other business".

 9       Q.   Sir, tell me if you, during that time period in question,

10    approximately May 6th, 1992, were you advocating that the citizens refuse

11    to surrender the arms?  Or were you in favour of them surrendering the

12    arms?

13       A.   I didn't have a firm standpoint on that because I did not have

14    complete information about the capacity and the possibilities of the

15    Territorial Defence and everything else.  What was clear to me was that in

16    other areas, non-Serb areas had come under attack, regardless of whether

17    they were armed or not.  And my standpoint was that we should simply try

18    everything, negotiate, send delegations, not provide any pretexts to them.

19    But personally, I was afraid that we would be attacked regardless of what

20    we did.

21       Q.   Okay.

22       A.   As for the details, I don't remember enough to go into details.

23       Q.   I understand that.  That's why I'm going to direct your attention

24    to page 333 where your name appears on the bottom of the page, and it

25    continues with comments that are attributed to you on page 332, and maybe


Page 5437

 1    this will help refresh your recollection as to what your position was on

 2    or about May 6th, 1992, in connection with the arms.  If you could read it

 3    out loud, because I don't know that we have the --

 4       A.   "Sejmenovic:  Some areas will be resolved through agreements."

 5    Then there is an illegible word.  And then it says -- no, this other word

 6    is also illegible.  Then it says:  "We will not give up our weapons. There

 7    are no guarantees for the people from their government."

 8       Q.   Does that, sir, refresh your recollection as to what your position

 9    was on or about May 6th, 1992?

10       A.   I don't know.  I can't be quite sure.

11       Q.   As you sit here, sir, do you have any recollection whatsoever of

12    ever having taken the position that's reflected on the comments attributed

13    to you?  Or you just don't remember?

14       A.   I have already said, I simply don't remember.  I see the text.  I

15    see what has been put down as the summary of what people said.  But I

16    cannot remember what standpoint I advocated.

17       Q.   Do you recall as you sit here, sir, what areas were going to be

18    resolved by or through agreements, as it is attributed -- I think it would

19    be fair, if you just look, you're welcome to look at the entire document.

20    Immediately before that, there's a discussion of the Lisbon Agreement, I'm

21    not sure if you're referencing that, but perhaps you could help us out

22    with that.

23       A.   Unfortunately, I cannot remember.  I know that this process was

24    underway, that there were delegations in Banja Luka.  But what this was

25    about, I can't recall at present.


Page 5438

 1            MR. OSTOJIC:  Now, I'm going to ask if the Court would please have

 2    the usher show you Exhibit SK46A and B.  Really, just B, the B/C/S

 3    version.

 4            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please do so.

 5            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And just so the record is

 6    clear, that's a document from Dr. Donia.  I think we identified them as

 7    the "SK" documents.

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.

 9            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  But just let me take the opportunity, just for

11    clarification, the Judges have discussed the issue of possible time

12    limits.  Of course, it's free for the Defence to decide how to use the

13    time, but the time is not unlimited.  And therefore, we decided to impose

14    a time limit to finalise the cross-examination no later than tomorrow at

15    the end of the hearing.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17       Q.   Mr. Sejmenovic, we have an idea from Defence Exhibit 7A and B what

18    seems to be your thought process or at least your feelings in May of 1992.

19    Now, SK46B, if you look at that, and I direct your attention to page 2 of

20    that which has the ERN number 00633866, I believe.  And this is a document

21    that's already in evidence, and there's a comment attributed to Dr. Stakic

22    on or about May 9th, 1992.  Can you read for me, sir, where it says there

23    where in fact Dr. Stakic, on that date, apparently said:  "Peace must be

24    maintained at all costs."

25            Do you see that written there, sir?


Page 5439

 1       A.   Yes, I see it says here:  "Milomir Stakic - from the 30th of

 2    April, 1992" and then in the Municipality of Prijedor here, from the

 3    constitution of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is implemented, and

 4    the because in accordance with the constitution.  Where new laws have not

 5    been enacted, the old ones will be implemented.  The next month or two are

 6    the most critical until the funds that have now been established are

 7    replenished.  Peace has to be maintained at all costs, and the economy has

 8    to be revived.  Committee of five members with Savanovic at its head has

 9    been established to receive the soldiers coming back from the front.

10    General mobilisation is obligatory, and the Serbs are required to respond

11    to the callup."

12       Q.   Thank you.  Sir, your position, on or about May of 1992, was not

13    one of peace; it was one to arm the citizens.  Correct?

14       A.   No.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think there's some limitation.

16            MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, I saw Your Honour looking at me.

17    Can I stand up.  First of all, there was no question as far as I saw.  The

18    witness was asked to read the document, and then a comment is effectively

19    being made.  But secondly, I was going to say if the Defence case is that

20    this witness actually was responsible for arming the Muslim population or

21    in some way was involved, then it's something that should be put to him so

22    Your Honours can see how he deals with it.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think it's only fair, and I would ask the

24    Defence to refrain from comments as they were made in the last question.

25            MR. OSTOJIC:


Page 5440

 1       Q.   Mr. Sejmenovic, on the page that your name appears last on -- I'm

 2    done with SK46A and B, sir.  Directing your attention, sir, to Exhibit D7A

 3    and B, specifically pages 332 and 333, again, sir, you don't know or do

 4    you have any recollection of whether these agreements that you reference

 5    involved the Lisbon agreements that are referenced merely six lines above

 6    that?

 7       A.   Is this page 332?

 8       Q.   333, sir.

 9       A.   I apologise.

10            I don't remember.  And I can't explain with any certainty what

11    this was about.  This may have been an interpretation of the news report

12    we listened to about this event, but I cannot recall enough to be able to

13    speak about it now.

14       Q.   Following your comments or the comments that are attributed to you

15    and turning to page 332, there is an individual by the name of Suljo who

16    makes a comment, after others spoke, during the same meeting apparently in

17    which you were in attendance.  Can you tell us what he says in that

18    section.

19       A.   "Suljo:  We must buy time also on the issue of insignia.  But if

20    weapons have to be returned, then there will be a war."

21       Q.   Having been at that meeting, sir, do you remember the individual

22    named Suljo making that statement that's attributed to him?

23       A.   I can't remember these details.

24       Q.   Would you be kind enough for me, sir, to just flip through the

25    balance of the pages before you in the B/C/S text and tell me if your name


Page 5441

 1    appears anywhere else on these entries?

 2       A.   I can't see my name being mentioned, but I'll go through it again.

 3       Q.   I don't either, Mr. Sejmenovic --

 4       A.   I haven't found it.

 5       Q.   Okay.

 6            In July of 1998 in your testimony in the Kovacevic case, you

 7    discussed an issue regarding a TV relay at Kozarac.  Do you remember

 8    generally when and if a TV relay at Kozarac and Lisina was actually

 9    captured.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Could you please be so kind and as it is custom

11    in this courtroom tell us where you are quoting from?  Wednesday, 8 July,

12    1998?

13            MR. OSTOJIC:  I wasn't quoting, Your Honour.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  You're making reference to testimony in the

15    Kovacevic case.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:  Page 373, lines 1 through 10, Your Honour.

17            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  Yes.  Please proceed.

18            MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm not quoting from that transcript, sir.

19       Q.   I just want to understand and have an appreciation of the

20    information you have in connection with the TV relay station.  Can you

21    tell me when it was that that TV relay station at Kozarac and Lisina was

22    captured?

23       A.   I can't remember precisely, but it was in the second half of 1991.

24    Because I know that there was a discussion on this in the parliament of

25    Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Unfortunately, I cannot tell you with precision.


Page 5442

 1       Q.   Can you tell me who seized the TV relay station and from whom?

 2       A.   What we heard at the time was that some farmers who were near the

 3    relay station, who had their farms up there saw, some people in camouflage

 4    uniforms carrying weapons who carried out an intervention at the relay

 5    station, and the personnel who had been employed there were chased out.

 6    And some other persons were brought in.  We learned about this event when

 7    the TV broadcast was interrupted.  So it was evident.  Several days later,

 8    maybe a day later, I'm not sure any more, the signal of Belgrade

 9    television was suddenly received.  And after that, Banja Luka.

10       Q.   Do you know, sir, who controlled that TV relay station prior to

11    the attempt to seize it by these unidentified men in camouflage uniform?

12       A.   There was information that this was done by the army, but the army

13    did not wear camouflage uniforms at the time.  Camouflage uniforms were

14    seen, and this interpretation came from eyewitnesses.  Who controlled it

15    previously, I don't know because I was never up there.  All I know is that

16    up to that point, we saw broadcasts of Sarajevo television, and sometimes

17    Belgrade or Zagreb television.  But from that point on, the TV broadcasts

18    were completely different.

19       Q.   Do you know why anyone would want to seize a TV relay station?

20       A.   I didn't understand your question.

21       Q.   I'll try to restate it.  Is there anything near the TV relay

22    station that was in existence in 1991, anything near or around the area

23    where this TV relay station was?

24       A.   What are you referring to when you say "something" or "anything"?

25    It's a mountain.


Page 5443

 1       Q.   I'll be more specific.  Thank you.  I understand that it's on the

 2    mountain, but was there any barracks there or any military armaments that

 3    were being kept near or around the area of the TV relay station, sir?

 4       A.   Near the TV relay station, there was nothing.  The relay station

 5    was at Lisina.  I think that's the name of the peak.  And that's part of

 6    the mountain of Kozara.  Going along the top of Kozara from Lisina towards

 7    Mrakovica, JNA barracks and military installations were quite some

 8    distance.  They were at Mrakovica.  I don't think there was anything in

 9    the vicinity, not as far as I know.

10       Q.   Were there any, to the best of your knowledge - and I know your

11    limited experience in the military - do you know if there were any

12    military installations near or around the TV relay station in 1991?

13       A.   I didn't have any information to the effect that there were any

14    military installations near the TV relay station.  I know there were some

15    at Benkovac, and I had some sort of information that near Benkovac, there

16    were other military installations, and allegedly helicopters were able to

17    land there.  But none of this was near Lisina, according to the

18    information I had.  The JNA sometimes had facilities that people didn't

19    know about, so it's possible that something did exist there, but this is

20    the first time I've heard of anything like that.

21       Q.   Thank you.  And let me just turn the topic, since we only have

22    about 15 minutes left, on an issue that I'd like to address.  You

23    gave a video or you gave a statement that was videotaped that we saw

24    during your direct examination.  Correct?

25       A.   Yes.


Page 5444

 1       Q.   With respect to that, sir, I'm a little confused on a couple

 2    points.  Once you mentioned a Mr. Mutic, I think.  And then you mention a

 3    Dragan Bozanic.  Can you tell me, sir, were you interviewed on more than

 4    one occasion?

 5       A.   Mutic interviewed me twice, and after that, Bozanic interviewed me

 6    once.  Mutic was from the local TV station and the Krajina television, and

 7    Bozanic was doing it on behalf of Serbian television.

 8       Q.   And how far apart was it in terms of time when you gave the first,

 9    second, and third interview?

10       A.   Mutic interviewed me once, and after a day or two, a day or two

11    later, I'm not sure exactly.  And then three or four days after that, some

12    foreign journalists arrived accompanied by Bozanic, who then conducted the

13    third interview with me.

14       Q.   Now, you mentioned that the interviews that were given by

15    Mr. Mutic or conducted by Mr. Mutic, you were given some instructions,

16    correct, as what to say?

17       A.   Yes.  He gave me those instructions.

18       Q.   Is it fair to say that Mr. Dragan Bozanic did not give you any

19    such instructions?

20       A.   No.  Bozanic came in, in a hurry, in the room where I was, and put

21    questions, the questions we saw on the tape.  He didn't say to me:  "You

22    have to answer like this or like that."  Simply, he interviewed me and I

23    answered in the way you heard me do, based on the experience I had with

24    the journalist Mutic and in accordance with the situation I was in.

25       Q.   So at the time that Dragan Bozanic interviewed you, he didn't ask


Page 5445

 1    you to answer in any manner; he didn't instruct you how to answer.  And

 2    during the time that he interviewed you, there were also foreign

 3    journalists at the camp and other foreign individuals, if you will.

 4    Correct?

 5       A.   No.  There were no foreign journalists in the room, only

 6    journalists of Crna, the Serbian television, and several camp guards who

 7    had entered the room and were watching me as I was answering the

 8    questions.

 9       Q.   We saw some of your interview, or possibly even all of it, with

10    respect to Mr. Bozanic.  Do you know whether there is in existence the

11    interviews that you allegedly gave where you read from a written

12    transcript which was given to you by Mr. Mutic?  Did you ever see any such

13    video footage of that?

14       A.   No.  No.

15       Q.   When was the first time, sir, that you retracted the comments that

16    you made on this video by the interview that was made by

17    Mr. Dragan Bozanic, who did not instruct you on what to say?  When was the

18    first time that you retracted those comments?

19       A.   I have already been asked this question here.  I answered that,

20    and I repeat it now.  I don't know what you mean by "retracted."  If you

21    would explain this to me, I will then tell you whether I did that or not.

22       Q.   All right.  If I'm permitted, I'd like to try at least.  Sir, if

23    you make a comment, and you don't agree with the comment, later, you would

24    advise someone, "I did not agree to make that comment," or I'm going to

25    retract or disavow myself of the statements I made on TV.


Page 5446

 1       A.   Now I understand.  Now, I understand.

 2       Q.   If I can just -- my question to you, sir:  When from August 1992,

 3    when was the first time that you retracted or disavowed the comments that

 4    you made while being interviewed by Mr. Dragan Bozanic?

 5       A.   Yes, I understand you now.  I said in my statement that I was

 6    forced to answer in the way I did, and I did that for the first time in

 7    1993.  I said that to a person who was represented a UN commission.  I

 8    think it was chaired by a gentleman called Cherif Bassiouni or something

 9    like that.  And a lady came to talk to me in Zagreb.  Her name was Ferial

10    Karaci [phoen] or Garaci [phoen].  She was from the UN commission.  I made

11    a statement about this.  And it's possible that during my interview with

12    her, which lasted for several hours, I think that was the first time I

13    said that.

14            It's possible I also said that to the representatives of the

15    embassy of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I'm not sure which came first in

16    chronological order, but I think it was the UN commission that came

17    first.  I'm speaking of my interview with them.  I don't remember,

18    however, whether this was taken down in writing or not.

19       Q.   Well, as you sit here, you don't know whether it was or not.

20    Correct?

21       A.   I'm sure it happened, but I'm not sure whether it was taken down

22    in writing.

23       Q.   Do you remember giving testimony on July 14th, 1998, at pages 713

24    through 714, where an identical question was asked of you in connection

25    with your retraction or disavowing or contradiction from the statements


Page 5447

 1  

 2  

 3  

 4  

 5  

 6  

 7  

 8  

 9  

10  

11  

12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.

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15  

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17  

18  

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20  

21  

22  

23  

24  

25  


Page 5448

 1    you made to now claiming that they were given under duress and being asked

 2    when was it the first time that you disavowed yourself from those

 3    comments?  It states, if I may --

 4       A.   Thank you.  I repeat.  I remember that this question was put to me

 5    and I was very confused by it because retracting a statement means, to me,

 6    saying that I did not say that.  That's why I was confused when that

 7    question was put to me.  You, unlike your colleague who asked me that

 8    question, you have explained this to me, which is why I can answer you

 9    precisely now.

10       Q.   Well, just to paraphrase, and you tell me if it's right or wrong,

11    I'm just trying to get an understanding, on July 14th, 1998, when asked

12    hen you actually retracted that statement, on line 4 through, I believe,

13    14 on page 714 of that date, you state, sir, "Answer:  During the

14    conversation which I had about my stay in the camp, I believe that this

15    conversation was conducted with one of the investigators of The Hague

16    Tribunal.  It was the first time then that I talked about these events,

17    and this is when I spoke about it, about this interview and about the

18    taping."

19            It goes on to state:  "Question, if you could remember perhaps the

20    month or a session and what year that you spoke to representatives of the

21    Tribunal and that you took back this statement." "Answer:  In 1995, I

22    believe in late 1995, but I'm not sure. It could have even been early

23    1996."

24            Just so I understand, Mr. Sejmenovic, is it your testimony that

25    you retracted this statement in 1993 or sometime in 1995 or 1996?


Page 5449

 1       A.   As for representatives of the Tribunal, my first contact with them

 2    was when I said it was.  In 1993, there was no Tribunal.  In Zagreb, there

 3    was an office of that UN commission, and there was a lady whose name I

 4    have told you, and then I was interviewed.  We spoke in the consulate of

 5    Bosnia and Herzegovina in Zagreb.  The address was Novakova [phoen]

 6    Street.  I think it was Number 9.  This was not with Tribunal

 7    investigators.

 8            My first conversation with Tribunal investigators was detailed, at

 9    least as far as the things they asked me.  They didn't ask me about

10    everything, and I told them this then.  But if you say:  "When was the

11    first time in general that I retracted this, regardless of whether it was

12    the Tribunal or somebody else?"  Then it would be this UN commission, and

13    I still have the visiting card of the person who interviewed me.  Not only

14    me, she interviewed a number of people who were arriving in Zagreb at the

15    time.  But nothing happened after these interviews.  Nobody called me or

16    asked me about anything.  Then the Tribunal investigators came, and that

17    was when I had the formal interview with them.

18       Q.   Thank you.  I think I understand.

19            Sir, I'm going to ask you, and I should probably tell the Court

20    I'm going to move to a totally different area in connection with the

21    minutes of the extraordinary session of Prijedor Municipal Assembly held

22    on the 14th of February, 1992.  Mr. Sejmenovic was present apparently at

23    the meeting.  I don't know if the Court wants me to start with the

24    questioning now or if it would be an appropriate time.  I know we have

25    five, six minutes left.


Page 5450

 1            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  After the impression of today's discussion of

 2    one document, I'm afraid we would sit here until 10.00.  So therefore, I

 3    think it's more appropriate to start this issue, this new issue, tomorrow.

 4    The trial stays adjourned until tomorrow, 2.15.

 5                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 6                          6.55 p.m., to be reconvened on

 7                          Tuesday, the 2nd day of July, 2002,

 8                          at 2.15 p.m.

 9

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