International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6197

1 Monday, 22 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. May we

6 first hear the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And today's appearances, for the

10 record.

11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: For the Prosecution, Your Honour,

12 Kapila Waidyaratne with Mr. Nicholas Koumjian, and Ruth Karper. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And for the complete Defence?

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, good morning. Branko Lukic and

16 Mr. John Ostojic for the Defence.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Before starting, several issues.

18 First of all, Ms. Karper, my apologies, because indeed, it's correct, the

19 document I needed was at least in my sphere and it was my fault to rely

20 only on the short summary of the OTP, indeed, misleading to that answer

21 that we regarded the witness as necessary to hear as a live witness.

22 Sorry about this.

23 Secondly, you may have heard by rumours on the corridor or

24 somewhere else that there was a Status Conference held last Friday in this

25 case office of the Prosecutor versus Mr. Mrdja. In the framework of this

Page 6198

1 Status Conference, there was a discussion when the case versus Mr. Mrdja

2 should be heard. You may know that it's a relatively new indictment and

3 Mr. Mrdja was just recently arrested. Ex officio, the Trial Chamber came

4 to the conclusion that normally, the prerequisites of Rule 48, joinder of

5 accused, would be met but we didn't go in any discussion of this point

6 because we believe such a joinder would infringe both the rights of

7 Dr. Stakic and Dr. Mrdja. Nevertheless, we have to take care that all

8 cases be heard expeditiously. Therefore, it was discussed during this

9 Status Conference whether or not it could be possible to hear the case

10 versus Mrdja during the break in the Stakic case, bearing in mind that it

11 was in the beginning a request from this Defence to have a break of about

12 three months.

13 It was discussed there that the Prosecutor's case would take,

14 realistically, maximum period of four weeks only and, therefore, it could

15 be feasible. No doubt, we have other problems to face, such as:

16 Courtroom availability; does it really fit into our programme; does the

17 Secretary-General of the United Nations assign the same Bench for this

18 case, and so on and so forth. But I regard it as necessary to inform you

19 already today on what's planned.

20 Any comments from the parties as regards this latter point?

21 MR. LUKIC: We have no special comments, Your Honour, but we are

22 ready to take a longer break than is scheduled.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And I understand that you are not interested to

24 try to have a joinder.

25 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. We would prefer to have a separate

Page 6199

1 trial.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We thought this, and I think it's indeed

3 adequate.

4 From the side of the Prosecution?

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Nothing to add this morning. I think, Your Honour,

6 the way we left it, I don't know if Mr. Lukic and the Defence know this,

7 but both parties were asked to submit in writing their views about being

8 able to start on the 1st of October and for the Mrdja case, and we

9 haven't done that but we're going to do that in writing. There are some

10 issues we have to deal with, principally Rule 68, and how long it will

11 take to do the necessary search for Rule 68. Other than that, I don't

12 have any other issues except to say that I think the Defence shouldn't

13 count on it yet because it's not yet completely resolved.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No. As I mentioned before, there are numerous

15 possible obstacles, but it shouldn't be the case that you hear probably

16 even misleading rumours, be it in the Detention Unit or be it on the

17 corridors of this premises. So, therefore, this observation. But as

18 regards Mrdja, I really want to invite Mr. Koumjian, if there is any

19 problem, let us know immediately because it seems to be absolutely

20 necessary to use all the possible dates to hear the case. Otherwise, it

21 could be somewhere in 2005, if not 2006, which is not a realistic

22 perspective.

23 Ms. Korner, last Thursday, before discussing the one or other

24 issue, she told us that you, Mr. Koumjian, would address us with a problem

25 as regards the signatures. Is there still a problem?

Page 6200

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, there is. But perhaps I could do it -- I may

2 have some more information this morning, and I would rather wait until I

3 have all the information before I speak to you.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then finally, we got the

5 Prosecution's fourth notice for admission of transcripts and videos

6 pursuant to Rule 92 bis. Is the Defence already prepared to respond to

7 this motion?

8 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. If it's the fifth

9 notice for admission of transcript pursuant to Rule 92 bis, I'm prepared.

10 If it's the fourth one, I'm not prepared actually to discuss that because

11 I'm not sure what videos the Court is referring to. I only received this

12 morning the Prosecution's fifth notice for admission of transcript

13 involving a particular witness.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You are always better treated by the OTP and

15 Registry than the Judges. We don't have this yet, but probably

16 nevertheless you can give your commentaries to the transcript already now,

17 please.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: With respect to the Prosecutor's fifth notice, we

19 object, Your Honour, and ask that this witness be presented live, although

20 we understand his medical condition. And the basis for which we believe

21 that he shall be presented live is as follows: Initially, this witness

22 was brought to the Tribunal. They cite the same reasons that they cited

23 in the prior case, the Tadic case, i.e., some hearing impairment that the

24 witness has sustained. That didn't seem to be a problem in the testimony

25 that the witness gave in the Tadic trial. And it seemed that the witness,

Page 6201

1 although the cross-examination was extremely limited, was able to endure

2 even cross-examination questions by both the Defence counsel as well as

3 the panel of Judges who were present. We believe that our rights to

4 confront and to cross-examine a witness is imperative, and that although

5 we have at times stipulated to 92 bis witnesses, this witness does touch

6 upon various issues that are critical and important to the Defence and

7 also to specific elements in the fourth amended revised indictment. For

8 those reasons, we ask that the witness be brought in or that the OTP

9 present another witness who would have, as they have in the past,

10 experienced parallel views and experiences within that time period at

11 issue. Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Arguments in response?

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, admittedly our information regarding

14 the condition comes from -- mainly from the spouse of the witness. And

15 I'm unsure if the investigator actually was able to speak to the witness.

16 Perhaps once. I think he was having a lot of trouble speaking to the

17 witness. But even if the witness, even if we presume the witness had no

18 problem, medical problem, that still would not necessarily mean the

19 witness is not appropriate for 92 bis. The question is what in the

20 witness's statement is it that the Defence feels is not appropriate for 92

21 bis, or would make it worth the time to have the witness brought here live

22 to testify. I think, as I recall, this is a pure crime-base witness, and

23 we think it's appropriate for 92 bis for that reason.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. We'll decide on this as soon as

25 possible. And as time is of the essence and we have to decide on all

Page 6202

1 these issues, no doubt before the Court recess, I would ask the Defence to

2 comment on the fourth notice for admission of transcripts and videos

3 pursuant to Rule 92 bis, if possible, before the -- immediately after the

4 second break of today, if you could take it.

5 Anything in addition? I can't see anything. Therefore, would the

6 witness of today, which is number -- we have two possibilities. Please

7 let us know what's the number of today.

8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Number 27, Your Honour, according to 65 ter.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 27. And this witness will be heard --

10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: As requested, protective measures, Your Honour,

11 of pseudonym and image distortion.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Pseudonym, image distortion. And pseudonym

13 would be now, please, "W"? Is it correct?

14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: "U." Am I correct?

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: "U." Okay. Then Witness U, please.

16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, is it envisaged that we can conclude

18 the witness today?

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the witness for tomorrow is

21 prepared as well?

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning. Can you hear in a language you

25 understand?

Page 6203

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you hear me?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's hear the solemn declaration of this

5 witness.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please be seated. Please understand

9 that we will call you "Witness U" only, and not with your last name. This

10 is for the purpose of your own protection. And so please don't regard it

11 as an uncourtesy.

12 So, please, the OTP may start the examination-in-chief.

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. May I at the beginning

14 request to Your Honour to go into private session as I would be leading

15 some personal information with regard to this witness.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session, please.

17 [Private session]

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16 [Open session]

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I? Thank you.

18 Q. Now, talking about Kamicani, could you tell us very briefly the

19 distances between Kamicani and Prijedor?

20 A. Between 13 and 14 kilometres, I'd say.

21 Q. And when you go to Prijedor from Kamicani, you pass the town

22 called Kozarac. Am I correct?

23 A. Yes, you pass beside it.

24 Q. What about Kozarusa?

25 A. Yes, you pass by Kozarusa again.

Page 6209

1 Q. What was the distance between Kamicani and Kozarac?

2 A. From my -- about 2 kilometres.

3 Q. What was the majority of the population in Kamicani, from what you

4 know?

5 A. Muslims were predominant, that is, Bosniaks.

6 Q. Roughly, approximately, did you know what the population was in

7 majority, the Muslim population in Kamicani?

8 A. I think about 90 per cent. It was the predominant group.

9 Q. Was there a mosque in Kamicani?

10 A. Yes, there was one.

11 Q. Where was it located?

12 A. The mosque was, when you arrived from Kozarac, about -- at one

13 kilometre from Kozarac, and then about a kilometre from the local commune

14 building. So it was midway between the two, roughly.

15 Q. Witness U, when did you stop work?

16 A. A week before the attack on Kozarac, that is, on Kamicani.

17 Q. When you say that, when was Kamicani attacked, according to what

18 you recall?

19 A. On the 26th of May, around 2.00. No, actually, it was on the 24th

20 of May, and the 26th was the day when the attack finished.

21 Q. So you stopped work one week before the 24th of May, 1992. What

22 made you stop work?

23 A. I wasn't able to move about and go off to my business in Prijedor

24 Municipality.

25 Q. Why do you say that you were unable to move about? Could you

Page 6210

1 explain as to what happened or what was the obstruction?

2 A. Following the takeover by Serb authorities in Prijedor

3 Municipality, during that last period, there were security measures and

4 control measures and checkpoints that had been introduced. So at some

5 point, you couldn't just pass through them.

6 Q. Now, you say that there were security measures and control

7 measures and checkpoints. Were they manned by Serbs?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said that Kamicani was attacked and shelled on the 24th of

10 May, 1992. Do you recall before that any negotiations or any discussions

11 that took place of what you heard and knew?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you explain what happened and when this happened.

14 A. Well, I actually attended, after I had found out from my

15 neighbours that people were arriving who had taken part in negotiations in

16 Prijedor following the takeover of Prijedor Municipality by Serb

17 authorities, which meant that a group of people had been elected from the

18 Kozarac region, had been selected to go and negotiate with these new

19 authorities, the newly self-imposed authorities. So a group of people

20 were selected to go there and discuss this newly arisen situation with the

21 new authorities.

22 Q. Did they come back and say what happened?

23 A. Yes. They arrived there at the Kamicani local commune building.

24 Probably, they went about other local communes, too. And they talked

25 about their discussions with the authorities in Prijedor.

Page 6211

1 Q. What did you hear from them, and who was the person who said this?

2 A. I did not know exactly the number of persons in that group of

3 negotiators, but Dr. Jusuf Pasic was among them, Asim Fazlic also.

4 These two persons I knew. And in that group, there may have been other

5 people, but not that I knew, or at least on that particular day, I didn't

6 see any other persons.

7 Q. Was there any demands from the Serb authorities of what these

8 speakers or the people who came back told you all?

9 A. From what I understood, that was at least what I understood back

10 then or that's what Jusuf Pasic said literally. He talked about the

11 negotiations and what the subject of the negotiations had been. However,

12 the room was packed with people and everyone was listening. So Jusuf

13 Pasic, perhaps, simplified the matter a bit, and this is literally what he

14 said. He said: "As negotiators" - and I am referring to the group who

15 had gone to Prijedor to negotiate - "we are in an unequal position as a

16 negotiating team to negotiate our terms, and you must be aware of that."

17 He was referring to us who were listening. "They" - and I am here

18 referring to the Prijedor municipal authorities - "are the occupation

19 force." That's what he said. "And they tell us what to do. And they are

20 not asking us what we thought was to be done. They were not requesting

21 our proposals. This is something you must understand. That's what the

22 situation is like," he said.

23 And we ended on that note, on that piece of information. Whether

24 there were any further negotiating teams later on, whether contact was

25 established with the authorities in Prijedor, I couldn't tell. But

Page 6212

1 probably the result of those negotiations was precisely the attack of the

2 Serb forces on the 24th and 25th of May, 1992.

3 Q. Was there any mention of handing over of weapons and being loyal

4 to the Serb authorities? Was there anything of that nature mentioned?

5 A. Yes. That was one of the things discussed. They requested the

6 TO, the reserve forces of the Territorial Defence of the former

7 Yugoslavia, of the former Yugoslav army, active in the Kozarac, they

8 requested that they turn in their weapons and that both active and reserve

9 police forces should return their weapons so that the new Serb authorities

10 could occupy the police station and fill the remaining posts, official

11 positions, in the Kozarac area. What followed from that was that Muslim

12 police officers were not to possess any weapons and were not to continue

13 their daily duties as policemen. And that was then the end to their

14 activity. And what would have followed afterwards, we can only speculate.

15 Q. Now, Witness, did you have any weapons with you?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. Were you a member of the TO?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, after these discussions or the matter that you referred

20 earlier, what happened on the 24th of May, 1992, and where were you?

21 A. On the 24th, it was a Sunday, roughly at 2.00 in the afternoon. I

22 happened to be in the area of Kamicani or, more specifically, in the

23 hamlet of Forici, thereabouts. I talked to one of the locals there at the

24 entrance to the hamlet, and suddenly there were shots and very loud

25 explosions. I didn't know which direction it was coming from at that

Page 6213

1 moment, but I know that there were powerful detonations while I was there

2 before I ran off to hide, and there was rubble flying through the air. So

3 at that moment, I took shelter in a garage nearby.

4 Q. Did you see any other explosions or shells hit the targets while

5 you were in the garage?

6 A. Yes. From the moment it began, that was the first moment of the

7 attack, it went on for some time. So from the garage in which I was

8 staying, there was no front door there. As far as I could see, I saw

9 where the shells were falling, falling on the houses and all over the

10 place, with loud explosions. So it was probably also due to the fear I

11 felt because that was the first time I saw anything like that happening.

12 Probably, I even consciously refrained from watching. But then again, I

13 was not in a position to see clearly what was happening.

14 Q. Did you see any houses be damaged by such shelling?

15 A. Yes, the houses across the way from where I was, and then 200

16 metres down the road, I saw a shell land on one roof and the house just

17 fell apart and the roof started burning. And I didn't see how that ended

18 up, what happened to the house, but I saw the shell fall on the

19 roof.

20 Q. Now, Witness, when you were in this garage, were wounded brought

21 to that place, a wounded man?

22 A. Yes. From the moment I came to the garage, there arrived some

23 other locals, men and women from the area, and they stayed with me there.

24 And we didn't leave the garage for at least between one and two hours.

25 And some three young men were there, and then some elderly locals also.

Page 6214

1 And then some were in a different place, I'm not sure, further down or

2 further up the street. And then a wounded man was brought there.

3 Q. Did you see as to what had happened to him?

4 A. Yes. They were passing by that garage where I was staying and

5 they saw probably that there were people inside there, so they brought

6 him there for us to help him.

7 Q. Did you and any other person take this wounded man to Kozarac?

8 A. Yes. We tried to provide whatever assistance we could, but none

9 of us were trained medical staff. And we were scared, too, and ignorant

10 as to what we were supposed to do. So our first idea was to take the man

11 to hospital in Kozarac.

12 Q. Did you take that wounded person to Kozarac, the hospital in

13 Kozarac?

14 A. Yes, we did.

15 Q. With whom did you go?

16 A. Next to the garage there, I mean, there were other people in the

17 garage, a number of locals. So next to the garage, there was a lorry

18 driven by one of the neighbours. So we put the wounded man on to the

19 lorry and we kept him in the back of the lorry, and that's how we

20 continued on for Kozarac.

21 Q. On your way to Kozarac, did you see, observe, any houses on the

22 way, damaged?

23 A. Yes. On my way, I was sitting in the back with the wounded man.

24 It was a rather small lorry, with the canvas lowered. But it flapped in

25 the wind so every now and then, as I was holding the wounded man in my

Page 6215

1 lap, I could see electricity posts torn down by shells, and I could see

2 shell-pimpled houses. I could see tree trunks lying all over the road,

3 probably also hit by shells, that sort of thing. So that was along the

4 road to the hospital. That was the situation. I did not watch all the

5 time, but when the canvas was pulled up by the wind, I could see the

6 situation outside along the road. I did not watch consistently during the

7 whole trip, but that's what I saw.

8 Q. What was the route that you took, the road that you took, to

9 Kozarac hospital, very quickly?

10 A. The road leading from Banja Luka towards Kozarac, that is, the new

11 road. And instead of turning off to Kamicani, we turned off to the old

12 road which is also leading towards Kozarac and Prijedor on to Banja Luka.

13 Q. When you reached the hospital, did you get to know as to what

14 happened to the wounded person, the person whom you took to hospital?

15 A. When we stopped, we saw that a number of medical personnel had

16 already gathered there, people whom I knew by sight who were staff members

17 of this hospital. They helped us carry him out of the truck, and I handed

18 the MAN over to them. But one of them said: "This man is finished,"

19 meaning that he had died. I must say that I was very afraid at that

20 moment. I didn't inquire further about what happened, whether he died

21 indeed or not. I'm just telling you this brief comment that I heard from

22 this person. That was the first thing that I learned and the only thing

23 that I learned about this man. After that, that is, after we took this

24 unfortunate man out of the truck, the shelling continued, and it was

25 getting closer to the hospital, to the area surrounding the hospital,

Page 6216

1 while we were still there. At that moment, the shelling even intensified,

2 so we had to seek shelter in the basement of this hospital.

3 Q. Was the hospital building damaged? Did you see any damage caused

4 to the hospital building by the shelling?

5 A. After the shelling, that is, during the shelling, we made several

6 attempts at leaving the basement. We wanted to continue on our way. It

7 was impossible to see from the basement what was going on, but we could

8 hear that the explosions were very near. The hospital itself was

9 affected. The glass on the windows were smashed and pieces of it were

10 falling all around the hospital, including the stairway leading down to

11 the basement. But we managed to leave the basement at one point in time.

12 It was a very brief lull in the shelling. When we got out, we were able

13 to see that the truck that we had used to bring this man to the hospital

14 had also been hit. So it was impossible for us to take the same vehicle

15 back. So we seized this lull in the shelling, this opportune moment, and

16 came out. I could see that everything had been badly damaged, including

17 the hospital building, the windows on the hospital, and the truck. But we

18 managed to leave the area and we continued on towards our houses.

19 Q. Witness, did you get to know the name of the person, the wounded

20 person whom you took to hospital and subsequently succumbed to injuries?

21 Did you get to know his name?

22 A. Yes, I did. He was a local resident from the same village as we

23 were. His family name was Foric. I don't know what his name was, but I

24 think he was called Ile. People called him "Ile," so his name could be

25 Ilijaz, for instance.

Page 6217

1 Q. How was he dressed at this time? Was he a civilian, dressed in

2 civvies, civilian clothes?

3 A. Yes. He was wearing jeans, denim trousers at any rate. He had a

4 T-shirt and a shirt on top of the T-shirt.

5 Q. You said that you returned to Kamicani.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How long did you stay in Kamicani after that?

8 A. Well, I think I stayed there for about two hours. I think I was

9 back home between 5.00 and 6.00 after I left the hospital.

10 Q. Now, in Kamicani, until when -- how long were you in Kamicani

11 after that?

12 A. I stayed there until the 26th of May, the afternoon hours of that

13 day.

14 Q. Was Kamicani shelled during this period, from the 24th to the

15 26th? Could you very briefly explain what you observed?

16 A. Ever since the very beginning of the shelling and my departure

17 from that area, rounds kept falling almost all the time, but sporadically,

18 with intervals.

19 Q. On the 26th of May, 1992, did your family leave the house in

20 Kamicani?

21 A. Yes, that is correct. Due to the shelling and the firing from

22 infantry weapons which was getting closer and closer, and also because of

23 the fact that we were able to see houses on fire from the direction of

24 Banja Luka, we decided that the moment had come for us to leave our

25 houses.

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Page 6219

1 Q. Now, when you say "the family," who are the people who left the

2 house?

3 A. I am referring to my immediate family and a number of neighbours

4 who were with us at the time; specifically, people who were hiding in the

5 basement of this house and with whom we left the village.

6 Q. When you say, "hiding in the basement," they were taking refuge in

7 the house from the shelling; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, yes. Why else would they be there?

9 Q. Now, Witness, what did you do?

10 A. After we had decided to leave our homes, we had some kind of

11 informal conversation amongst ourselves. I mean, it happened very

12 quickly. We decided to leave in the direction of Trnopolje, not exactly

13 for Trnopolje, but we decided to go in that direction. I decided to go in

14 the opposite direction and to leave for the woods because it seemed to me

15 that because of the nature of the terrain, it would be easier for us to

16 hide from the fighting which was getting closer. So we parted in this

17 house. They went to the south and I went in the opposite direction,

18 northward. After about 10 or 15 minutes of walk in the direction of these

19 woods, I realised that I had made a mistake. I kept asking myself: "Why

20 should I go to the area which is supposedly safer and let my family, my

21 wife and my child, go in the opposite direction"? And it was at that

22 moment that I decided to go back and join them, and then come what may.

23 Q. Were any of the people --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I'm sorry.

Page 6220

1 Q. Were any of the people who were with you armed at this time?

2 A. No. No, there were no weapons there whatsoever.

3 Q. And then you said that you decided to go and look for your family.

4 So did you proceed in search of your family and see them?

5 A. Yes, I did. As I said, I was for a while walking in the opposite

6 direction, but then I decided to go back and join them. While still on

7 the road, I saw a truck which was parked in the vicinity of my house.

8 This house was the property of my company, and I decided to take this

9 truck and to follow them, to try to get to them as quickly as possible.

10 And I was moving in the opposite direction of the attack. As I was

11 driving through the village, trying to get to my family and other people,

12 I saw that the place had already been abandoned by its residents. I

13 didn't see anyone inside or outside their houses. Of course, I couldn't

14 see inside. But I didn't see anyone around.

15 I kept looking to the left, hoping to see them. I wanted to give

16 them a sign so that they know that I was following them, that I was with

17 this truck which I thought could take us from the area much faster, take

18 us out of the area much faster. I probably drove very fast -- actually, I

19 know I did. And looking to the right and to the left, more to the left, I

20 came across a military vehicle, a pinzgauer, which was covered with a

21 canvas and was carrying a number of armed soldiers who were sitting on

22 both sides of the truck. The vehicle was moving in the same direction as

23 my truck and I caught them -- and I caught up with them. At that moment,

24 they stopped and they pointed their rifles at me. So I had to stop and

25 get out of the truck.

Page 6221

1 Q. Now, these soldiers, did you recognise them? Were they Serb

2 soldiers? How were they dressed?

3 A. The soldiers were wearing the usual Yugoslav military uniform, the

4 one I was familiar with, but they had no insignia on. They had helmets on

5 their heads, but the helmets did not have the usual five-pointed star,

6 which must have been covered with some black scotch tape. One of them had

7 a cap, the usual Yugoslav army cap, with the five-pointed red star.

8 Q. Were you beaten and questioned, or questioned?

9 A. No, they didn't beat me. The first thing they told me was to

10 curse me. They verbally abused me, started calling me names, and they

11 shouted at me, telling me to discard my weapon, but it was obvious that I

12 didn't have any weapon. They said: "Drop that weapon." But I said:

13 "You can see that I don't have any." So they continued with a number of

14 questions. They wanted to know where I was going, what I was up to, and

15 I told them. I told them what my intentions were. This lasted for a

16 while. We talked, but all the time they had their rifles pointed at me.

17 I told them that I went to search for my family, that I wanted to save my

18 family, but that I was not sure that I would be able to do that. One of

19 them, the one with the cap with the five-pointed star, came closer and

20 addressed me in a somewhat calmer way. And he asked me once again where I

21 was going, and I told him again what I had already told them.

22 At that moment while we were talking, the family, that is, the

23 people, were passing by. They were behind their backs. And I showed

24 them -- I pointed to those people, trying to explain to them what I was

25 about to do. So they turned around, and some of them, my father, my

Page 6222

1 mother, and some elderly people who were not moving very fast, who could

2 not walk as quickly as the younger ones who had already left, turned

3 around. And they said that they should board the truck. A number of

4 other residents came out of the shelters, and they were all put on this

5 truck, which I then drove in the direction of Kozarac, that is, towards --

6 to the T junction leading to Kozarac.

7 Q. You drove the truck with the others who were put on to your truck.

8 Was any other truck escorting you, escorting the truck that was driven by

9 you?

10 A. Yes, there was. The soldiers who were with their vehicle, they

11 were driving the same direction. I don't remember whether they were ahead

12 of me or behind me because at that moment while this was going on, while

13 people were being loaded on to the truck, a number of other residents

14 showed up driving tractors, people who had gathered from the surrounding

15 houses who all formed a kind of small convoy which included this military

16 vehicle carrying Serb soldiers.

17 Q. Where were you all ultimately taken to?

18 A. Ultimately, we were taken to the school building in Trnopolje.

19 Q. Now, when you say "the school building in Trnopolje," could you

20 describe very briefly what this place was? And this was on the 26th of

21 May, 1992; am I correct?

22 A. Yes, you're correct. This lasted for a while. I just told you

23 the end of the story. The event happened on the 26th of May but late at

24 night, between 10.00 and 11.00 p.m.

25 Q. Could you describe the place, the school building, and the other

Page 6223

1 buildings around in Trnopolje, very briefly.

2 A. It consisted of a school building, an elementary school building,

3 a shop, football pitch, and a building which housed the local community

4 centre.

5 Q. Was there a cinema, too?

6 A. Yes, there was a cinema hall there, but I don't think that it

7 worked regularly. It was part of the community centre which had -- which

8 organised various types of activities.

9 Q. What you referred as "local community centre" was the cinema that

10 I referred to; am I correct? That was a big hall?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, Witness, when you reached Trnopolje, what did you observe

13 there other than the buildings that you described?

14 A. We reached Trnopolje at night. I drove in, into the compound,

15 between the building that we referred to a moment ago, that is, the

16 community centre building, the cinema hall, and the shop. It was dark.

17 The buses carrying women, children, and men followed my truck into the

18 compound, and we stopped there. I didn't actually enter the school

19 compound. And at that moment, I was not aware of what was going on in the

20 school building or who was there. I was still outside.

21 After a while, the buses were emptied, and I lingered on for some

22 time. A number of other buses and trucks arrived in the meantime, and

23 that's how I spent the night, out in the open. On the following day, when

24 it became light, I saw for the first time that people were actually

25 sleeping out in the open, in the school yard. There were many people

Page 6224

1 there, including a number of children who were crying. I also noticed

2 that the school was also packed, including the school yard. But we were

3 still standing outside at that time. Most of the people there were

4 residents of neighbouring communities such as Kozarac and Kamicani, and I

5 knew most of them.

6 Q. Witness, did you observe anybody in control or in authority other

7 than the people who had come there from the surrounding areas?

8 A. Of course, I didn't make any decisions or choices as to the route

9 we were supposed to take. It was the soldiers who told us where to go,

10 where to turn at various junctions such as Kozarac. There were armed

11 soldiers posted everywhere, so they were the ones who led us towards

12 Trnopolje. So the next day, when we arrived, when it dawned, I realised

13 where we were. We could still hear shooting and firing coming from

14 various directions, and I saw the next day that there were quite a few

15 people in military uniforms around this place. So there we were, and I

16 realised that it was not possible for us to leave.

17 Q. At that time in the camp, did you learn who was in charge of the

18 camp?

19 A. Yes, I did. The camp commander was a major by the name of

20 Slobodan Kuruzovic. He was the camp commander throughout the period of

21 time while I was there.

22 Q. Were there guards in uniform?

23 A. Yes, yes, of course, the guards.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, would this be a convenient moment

25 to take a break, the adjournment?

Page 6225

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 5 minutes to

2 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Apologies for being late due

6 to problems in another case.

7 I heard that there would be an issue to be raised as regards

8 signatures. Please.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Your Honour. As Your Honour knows, an issue

10 that the Court, the Trial Chamber, has identified as a key issue in this

11 case is the signatures on many of the documents issued by -- or that have

12 been presented by the Office of the Prosecutor, and in particular,

13 documents that we contend were signed by Dr. Stakic. Most of the

14 documents in dispute, the Defence has admitted that Dr. Stakic authored

15 three documents that were signed in Cyrillic. Most of those that are in

16 dispute are signatures that appear to me to be in Latin and

17 signed "S. Milomir," and I believe the Defence objected to those and

18 raised the issue, I believe Mr. Lukic said it was highly questionable that

19 a document would be signed with the first name of someone who was the

20 president of a municipality or Crisis Staff.

21 We asked Your Honours for an order to seize the documents that

22 were written by the accused since his detention in the custody of the

23 Detention Unit and also documents that he had on him at the time of the

24 arrest, and Your Honours were kind enough to grant that order on the 5th

25 of July, I believe.

Page 6226

1 The order specifically excluded material in the cell of the

2 accused. When we asked for this order, we were aware that Dr. Stakic had

3 certain documents in his possession at the time of his arrest that were

4 turned over by the Office of the Prosecutor to the Registrar. When we got

5 back the material from Judge Lindholm, those documents were not included.

6 And I had asked my investigators to track those down, and I received the

7 information this morning that apparently the documents were photocopied by

8 the OTP, and then handed over to the OLAD unit. We received information

9 from Melinda Taylor today that those documents had been given to the

10 Detention Unit and that the Detention Unit reported to her this morning

11 that there's a note on the file indicating that, except for certain

12 passports and I believe a driver's license that was retained, all other

13 documents were turned over to the accused, and they believe that they are

14 in his cell. I think that's speculation, but they were turned over to the

15 accused since his detention, and he hasn't been released since that time.

16 Directing Your Honours' attention, for example, to the documents

17 in front of you, the page -- I am just going to use the ERN stamp on the

18 top, the page that ends with the numbers 204. I believe this has to do,

19 this document, with a customs violation or customs something, kind of a

20 demand from the customs unit in Yugoslavia or Serbia. And there's a

21 signature on the bottom right which I believe appears to be the same as

22 the signatures on many of the Crisis Staff documents.

23 Going to page 205, which appears to be something to do with an

24 airline ticket, on the bottom left, there's a signature that appears to me

25 to be S. Milomir.

Page 6227

1 Going to page 208, there are two receipts for rent, and the

2 signature of the rentor on the bottom left of each of the documents

3 appears to be the same signature that is disputed on the Crisis Staff

4 documents, S. Milomir.

5 Going to page 209, there is another document from Luka Beograd.

6 And again, the signature under the words "primio" appears to be similar to

7 the S. Milomir signatures in dispute.

8 And the very last page, on page 721, you see under "primio" the S.

9 Milomir signature. These, I think, are highly relevant in that they were

10 on the accused at the time of his arrest.

11 I don't believe under my domestic -- my experience in domestic

12 jurisdiction, or any jurisdiction, a person in a detention unit has an

13 expectation of privacy as to their documents in a cell, otherwise, there

14 wouldn't be security in those units.

15 I have two alternative requests: One is that the Defence agrees -

16 which of course they do not have to and it should not be held against them

17 - to provide these documents, or secondly that Your Honour order the

18 Detention Unit to go -- we can give them an exact copy of the documents

19 we're looking for, to look in his cell and see if they can find these

20 documents, the reason being although the handwriting experts will get some

21 use from the photocopies, it is much, much preferable to them to have the

22 original signatures, which I'm not sure -- I have to admit I'm not sure

23 that the documents that we're talking about are "original" originals,

24 whether Dr. Stakic had photocopies in his possession or had originals in

25 his possession. That I'm not sure of because I haven't seen them.

Page 6228

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No doubt that a forensic handwriting expert

2 needs originals, not photocopies. But if I understand correctly, the

3 documents were handed over to the OTP, and then photocopies were taken,

4 and the originals given back?

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: That is what I found out, yes.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It seems not to be professional. But we have to

7 resolve this issue. Of course, there is no obligation, but I remember

8 when there was a review whether or not the documents were privileged or

9 not, Mr. Lukic was present. Probably, he can, if he so wants only, to

10 help us out whether there were originals or only photocopies. You can

11 discuss this, of course, and ever before answering.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: With the Court's permission, I'd like to address

13 that point because I spoke to Mr. Koumjian from the OTP in connection with

14 these documents, and perhaps he can clarify further. These were not

15 documents that the Defence had in its possession or were transmitted to

16 the OTP during or subsequent to the Court's order. So -- and I just

17 wanted clarification on that, and I think Mr. Koumjian is nodding, but I

18 would rather have it on the record. These are documents that were

19 provided, in our opinion, and I have an objection to it specifically,

20 ex parte without the Defence or the Defence lawyers at any time having any

21 knowledge or any information about these documents. They were held in

22 abeyance from us at all times until now, this morning, when they were

23 tendered to us, apparently when they were again reviewed by Mr. Koumjian

24 and his team of investigators.

25 So if the Court's question is whether we were present when

Page 6229

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8

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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15

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21

22

23

24

25

Page 6230

1 originals were photocopied and given to the OTP, I think Mr. Koumjian can

2 answer that, and the answer is an unequivocal "no." Because today is the

3 first time that we received a copy of these documents and I've never seen

4 the original in any form.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the Defence can only act as one act, and

6 it should be relatively easy for Mr. Lukic, having been present during the

7 review, to identify whether or not these documents were in the envelope

8 received from the Detention Unit and opened in his presence by

9 Judge Lindholm.

10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, these documents were not in the envelope

11 which was opened in my presence.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This means that there is an additional request

13 by the OTP?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And I understand it, a request for a search and

16 seizure order as regards the cell unit of Dr. Stakic limited to the

17 originals of the documents we have in photocopy before us.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Exactly correct, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 11.30.

20 --- Break taken at 11.16 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

23 The Defence has heard the request by the Office of the Prosecutor.

24 You have, of course, now the right to respond.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. With respect to this

Page 6231

1 request, we would like initially for the record to state that we would

2 incorporate our arguments that we had set forth for the Court initially

3 during the initial request for the subpoena, and for the same bases as

4 I've outlined at that time, we think the request should, or the

5 supplemental request, should likewise be denied.

6 In addition, however, we think there are two additional relevant

7 and important matters that need to be addressed with respect to this

8 additional supplemental request. First, we think that this request is far

9 beyond the parameters of relevance and necessity. The OTP has not only

10 the burden of proof in this case, as we've outlined, but on each and every

11 issue, we believe they are required to set forth at least the prima facie

12 basis as to why those documents are reasonable. By merely stating that

13 they had the documents in their possession, had them photocopied, and

14 never gave it to the Defence at any time, although we believe the Rules

15 specifically would have allowed and directed them to provide us with

16 copies of those documents throughout the proceedings, but most

17 specifically at the time when this issue was raised, the OTP should have

18 immediately put us on notice, should have immediately given us copies of

19 those documents, and we would have immediately - as opposed to now within

20 the last 10 or so minutes - consulted with our client in connection with

21 those issues. We have been denied that. We have been denied, in essence,

22 a fair proceeding, in our opinion respectfully.

23 In addition to that, we think what the OTP is, in reality, doing

24 is trying to change the law of the appellate court that was cited during

25 our earlier objection regarding handwriting samples. It's one thing to

Page 6232

1 take the position to suggest - and the case is obviously the Delalic case

2 in Celebici - is to ask the Court for a handwriting sample which is

3 specifically prohibited. But does it really not equate to the same thing,

4 as opposed to asking an accused for handwriting samples, the OTP in every

5 case merely waits in the bushes, allows the accused to write letters to

6 his family, correspond with his counsel, correspond with other members or

7 friends in the community, and then in the middle of the trial ask for

8 those samples of handwriting.

9 The OTP knew which elements were required in this case from the

10 outset, as set forth in their pretrial brief that they filed months before

11 the trial commenced. We believe that this is an attempt to override and

12 an attempt through the back door to circumvent the decisional authority

13 that has been decided by the appellate chamber and that this Court, we

14 believe, has followed rather closely.

15 For those two reasons, Your Honour, we ask that their motion to

16 supplement these documents be summarily denied.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

18 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admittedly, the Trial Chamber was surprised by

20 this request, but the request seems to be only consequent and we have to

21 take care that we do the necessary without violating the principle of

22 proportionality. Therefore, for the reasons given in our decision of

23 5 July, 2002 and taking into account the arguments given by the OTP and by

24 the Defence today, the Trial Chamber orders that, only for the purpose of

25 finding the originals of the documents handed over to us some minutes ago,

Page 6233

1 a search in the cell unit of Dr. Stakic should be executed. But this

2 should not be executed before Dr. Stakic returns to the cell unit, but on

3 the other hand, Dr. Stakic will be not allowed to enter the cell unit

4 before this enforcement of this order can take place. The search should

5 take place, or has to take place, in the presence of a witness of the

6 United Nations Detention Unit, and it should be executed, as mentioned

7 beforehand, immediately, and it's restricted only to finding the originals

8 of these documents.

9 Having found these documents, once again, the documents should be

10 put into an envelope. This envelope has to be sealed. And then in

11 analogy, the procedure has to follow as it was set out in our decision of

12 5 July 2002, and the review should be conducted by

13 Judge Per Lindholm in the presence of counsel for Dr. Stakic.

14 We believe that the Prosecutor, by showing us the examples, has

15 established that it is necessary to have these documents in the original

16 version. And as regards the opinion of the Defence, it is, of course, not

17 to take handwriting samples; it is to take documents which were, for

18 totally different reasons, were produced in the past. And we already,

19 when discussing the draft for the decision of 5 July 2002, we balanced the

20 interests of the parties and came to the conclusion that, indeed, there

21 would be no obstacle to obtain such documents not prepared for the purpose

22 of getting here during trial new handwriting samples. Therefore, we

23 expect that the OTP is able to conduct this exercise today.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. Yes, obviously, that's necessary.

25 Would Your Honour like me to mark as an exhibit these eight pages that

Page 6234

1 I've shown Your Honour? And I think the record might be clearer if they

2 were made an exhibit.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For these purposes, but only for these purposes,

4 I think it's necessary to have these eight pages as -- marked as exhibits.

5 Objections by the Defence? It's now on the photocopies we have

6 before us.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. Your Honour, there's no objection to

8 proceeding in marking those eight pages as Mr. Koumjian does direct. I do

9 have a practical issue with the Court's order, if I may address with the

10 Court at this time respectfully.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: We recognise and understand Your Honours' ruling.

13 Respectfully, we disagree with it. However, my practical problem with

14 respectfully disagreeing with the Court is that our rights to proceed with

15 a potential appeal have to be discussed, digested, possibly debated

16 between the client and the team involved. We think, if the Court would be

17 kind enough to modify its order to - and I understand the urgency from

18 the Court's point of view, again respectfully disagreeing with it - to

19 have this seizure take place, but that the documents do not be tendered to

20 the OTP for examination until we have come to a conclusion under our

21 rights under the Rules within seven days to ask for an interlocutory

22 appeal on this issue. It's not a delay. We're not asking the Court to in

23 any way interfere with the logic that has been shared with us in the

24 decision. However, we think we still have some rights and would like to

25 determine whether or not we would exercise those rights in a timely

Page 6235

1 fashion.

2 So what I would propose, if I may, is that if the Court orders the

3 seizure, that the documents be kept in the possession and retention of an

4 authorised person, such as a member of the Detention Unit, today, from

5 what I can understand from the Court's ruling, and give us an opportunity

6 to respond as to what, if any, objection we have as to proceeding with the

7 next step, i.e. presenting it to the judge and then having the OTP and the

8 Defence counsel examine that together.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let me address this immediately because it has

10 already been resolved, this problem. Please find in our decision, and I

11 said it had to be applied analogously. In the end, when it comes how to

12 enforce a decision, we stated that all remedies available under the Rules

13 remain untouched. And for the purposes of today's search and seizure,

14 this does mean, in the light of what we heard now, that the sealed

15 envelope has to be given immediately to Judge Lindholm and will not be

16 opened before you had the right under the Rules to ask for certification

17 for an appeal. I think it's --

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then let's turn to the documents. The

20 former -- the document with the number ending with 203, 204 will be S220.

21 205 will be S221. Is it correct that there is no 206, 207?

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, that is correct.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then 208, S222. 209, 223. 212, S224. Ending

24 with 198, S225. Ending with 721, S226.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe, Your Honour, that the number on the

Page 6236

1 photocopy is cut off. I believe that's 7211, that last document, because

2 there should be eight digits in total.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, right. But you agree, we can't read it

4 from the document, so the ending number is --

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to explain to the Defence what I think the

6 answer is, these numbers are not -- there are some numbers like 206 and

7 207 that are missing because this is a selection of the ones that we

8 thought contained the signatures we were interested in. So if Mr. Ostojic

9 or Mr. Lukic wants the other documents, they can be provided.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So I expect the necessary to be done and the

11 Detention Unit to be informed beforehand that the procedure can be

12 executed as expected.

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour. If I could be excused to

14 try to arrange this, this afternoon. Mr. Waidyaratne will carry on.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then may the witness, if there are

16 no other issues -- but please bring the witness, yes.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: The only other issue is we will take the OTP's offer

18 on providing us with a complete set of documents that are in their

19 possession that they took from our client. So that would be nice. Even

20 though we are close to the end of their case, we would appreciate it in

21 any event. Thank you.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's fair enough, and it was offered.

23 Do you think you can finalise within the next 90 minutes?

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I think probably, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then we give you the necessary leeway, having

Page 6237

1 had now a longer and short break. But in order to come to a conclusion,

2 please proceed then.

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I would. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, our apologies for this unforeseeable

5 interruption of your examination. It will now proceed. Thank you.

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 May I at this stage ask for private session, Your Honour. There

8 may be some answers that he will touch upon some personal identification.

9 So, therefore, may I request a private session at this stage.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: No objection, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session, please.

12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6238

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12 Pages 6238 to 6247 redacted private session.

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Page 6248

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

24 Q. Witness, you said that even the local mosque was destroyed or

25 damaged. Did you see the local mosque?

Page 6249

1 A. I did because we had to pass by the local mosque on our way to the

2 house.

3 Q. What did you observe?

4 A. The mosque had also been set on fire. There were no longer any

5 door frames or window frames on it. The minaret was down. It had

6 collapsed, I think to the west. That is how we found it.

7 Q. This is the mosque in Kamicani. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, how long did you stay in Trnopolje?

10 A. Until they closed down the camp, that is, until the 1st of

11 October.

12 Q. How did you get your food during the time that you spent in the

13 camp?

14 A. At the beginning, there was a Red Cross vehicle, just an ordinary

15 vehicle, which was used by the people, that is, the employees of the local

16 Red Cross. Those people were from Prijedor. Which vehicle was used by

17 them to bring bread, and we would form a line when this truck arrived and

18 each of us could get two slices of bread. This lasted only for a while at

19 the very beginning. And soon after, the population of the neighbouring

20 houses, that is, the people who lived in the vicinity, mostly women,

21 started bringing us food. So while these people were still there, it was

22 possible for us to get some food from them, from acquaintances or

23 relatives, depending on who you knew.

24 Q. Were you provided with medical facilities, medicines, during the

25 time that you spent in Trnopolje?

Page 6250

1 A. There were a few doctors there, Bosniaks, who had been given a

2 room which was in the local commune building in Trnopolje. And detainees

3 could go to them for help. I don't know what problems other people had.

4 I myself suffered from kidney pain. I must have had some kind of

5 inflammation, and I did go to see these people, these doctors. They told

6 me that they knew what it was but they couldn't do anything to help me.

7 They didn't have any medical supplies. But they told me that my condition

8 was not a life-threatening one, and they gave me some other medicine, the

9 one that they had -- the only one they could give me.

10 Q. Witness, did you see people with injuries or any beatings that

11 took place in the camp, while you were in the camp?

12 A. Yes, I did. During my stay there, which was not a short one, from

13 the beginning until the end, people were taken out for interrogation and

14 then taken back. When I say "interrogation," that is what they -- that is

15 what they called it. I don't know what they did with them. But very

16 often, they would come back badly beaten and covered with blood. I don't

17 know what questions had been asked of them but they often came back

18 injured, with wounds that had to be treated.

19 Q. Did you see any person die or being killed in the camp? I may say

20 "die" in the camp.

21 A. Inside the camp proper, I did see one person die. And I

22 heard -- I was informed that many people did die indeed, but I did see

23 this one person whose name I did not know. That was midway through my

24 stay in the camp. People were being brought in from the surroundings of

25 Prijedor, Hambarine, and those villages over there. We were sleeping

Page 6251

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Page 6252

1 outside, so those people, too, were next to where I was in the camp. This

2 was an elderly man. I'm not sure what the reason was but he had to use

3 the toilet all the time. So this went on like that for two or three days,

4 and that's where he then died. Perhaps dysentery or something like that.

5 That's what I heard had been the cause of his death, but no one can say

6 really, I suppose.

7 Q. Was he provided with any medical assistance or medicines?

8 A. The man was there next to me, and I never saw any doctors

9 attending his illness. And perhaps had he been given the proper

10 medicines, he would not have died.

11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, would this be a convenient moment

12 to break, or I would go on for another 10 or 15 minutes if it's okay,

13 permitted.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please do so.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Then I would be able to conclude my examination.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please do so.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

18 Q. Did you see any persons being called out and taken out of the

19 camp?

20 A. Yes. During my stay in the camp, I was an eyewitness to several

21 occasions where police officers, Serb police officers, would enter the

22 camp. Two of them, they stood there at the perimeter for a while, for

23 perhaps 15 or 20 minutes, looking completely disinterested. After a

24 while, they approached a group of persons who were sleeping, quite

25 literally, next to an outbuilding. One of the group approached them in

Page 6253

1 turn, a man I knew, and then one of the police officers offered him a

2 cigarette. He lit the cigarette. I did not even overhear their

3 conversation, but judging by their gestures, I had the impression that

4 they were acquaintances. Perhaps if they had something against that man,

5 they wouldn't have offered him the cigarette. Maybe they would have

6 beaten him. That was my impression. So while he was still smoking, he

7 went back to where he had come from, and then he returned again with

8 another five people, so there were six of them. And at one point, they

9 all began talking to one another. And after a brief conversation, they

10 moved and went behind the building that we had earlier described as the

11 cinema.

12 Once they reached the corner of that building, I saw that the six

13 of them had their hands behind their heads, and they moved towards the

14 exit of the camp. And at that moment, my impression was that the scene

15 was strange, and other people who watched this said the same because the

16 conversation at first seemed friendly. But then they were made to put

17 their hands behind their heads when they reached the corner of the house.

18 And then 15, 20 minutes, perhaps half an hour later, we heard sounds of

19 shooting from semi-automatic weapons. Shots were fired. I did not see

20 this but I heard those shots. And after the initial barrage, there were

21 individual shots, and I could count them. I could discern them clearly.

22 There were six shots being fired. But even at that point, I could not

23 know exactly what had happened. After a few days, a group of people from

24 the camp went to bury the bodies of those six people, which probably

25 implied that they had on that occasion been killed behind that building.

Page 6254

1 Q. Did you -- you said that you knew the man who was given the

2 cigarette. Do you remember the name of the person? Do you recall the

3 name?

4 A. Yes. His name was Zilhad Foric

5 Q. Did you recognise any others with him who were taken with him?

6 A. Yes. His brother, whose name I don't know; his two neighbours,

7 also by the last name of Foric. So I can remember their father's name but

8 I can't give you their names now. I know the name of one of their

9 brothers who is still alive but, well, you see, I can't remember now. And

10 there were another two persons. They were also brothers. I did not know

11 them, but they came from the same village of Forici. So there were three

12 couples of brothers who had been taken off. And then the other two

13 persons whose names I didn't know, their father's name was Rasim. And one

14 of these persons was called Zihad, and the other I can't remember.

15 Q. The six people with the last name Foric, is that correct?

16 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Witness, when you were in the camp, were you able to move out and

18 into the camp freely?

19 A. Move in and out freely, no, we were not allowed to. But we drank

20 the water we got from across the way from where the camp was because there

21 was no drinking water inside the camp. So we had to queue up, normally.

22 And guards at the checkpoint where we were crossing the road would let us

23 cross two by two to go and fetch the water. So we took turns two by two.

24 That was the moment when you could actually leave the camp.

25 As early as August, I think it was late August when those water

Page 6255

1 supplies that we were using were practically exhausted, and those women

2 could no longer bring us food in the camp because they had been expelled

3 from the area and no longer lived in the surroundings. Whenever the

4 guards were well disposed, they would allow us to go and forage for food

5 in the surrounding houses, whatever food was still there left behind for

6 us to eat. So these were the only opportunities we got to actually leave

7 the camp.

8 Q. Just briefly before we end, what about the women and the females

9 that were in the camp? Did you see them being harassed or being taken out

10 of the camp?

11 A. Women in the camp. From the very beginning to, I believe, the

12 month of August, women, but not only women, also children, were brought

13 in, women and children who had been expelled from the surrounding

14 villages. They would usually put them up in the cinema hall and part of

15 the area behind the camp. Sometimes they would stay for three, five,

16 seven days, and then they would be transported further by rail and taken

17 off somewhere. We did not know where these women and children were being

18 taken.

19 As far as harassment of women is concerned, during my stay, I did

20 not notice any such cases. But one particular night, when there were

21 people inside the camp who had come from outside, from the surrounding

22 area, supposedly soldiers arrived in the camp who were not camp guards but

23 members of some combat unit who were doing, well, I guess only they knew

24 what, in the Kozarac area. They came during the night, and they would

25 take off women and girls and take these women and girls along with them,

Page 6256

1 some of whom were returned the following day, and some even later. I

2 should suppose that they had been raped. My only knowledge of that was

3 that the following day, the camp commander himself was in the camp - that

4 was Kuruzovic - and he was surrounded by a group of women. I approached

5 them as their conversation was ending, and I only heard him say the

6 following. He said: "I'll look into this matter. This must not happen

7 again." And of course I asked the women what they were talking about.

8 And those were mothers and sisters who had been taken off to be raped, and

9 they complained to him while they were still inside the camp. And I

10 thought this was a brave gesture on their part to approach him and ask him

11 about it.

12 Q. Witness, you left Trnopolje on the 1st of October, 1992. Am I

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. That concludes the

16 examination-in-chief. Thank you.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. The trial stays adjourned until 5

18 minutes past 1.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.44 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Witness U, for the purposes

22 of a fairly conducted trial, it's now for the Defence to put forward to

23 you some additional questions. And please answer them in the same way you

24 did as vis-a-vis the Prosecutor. Thank you for your understanding.

25 Please.

Page 6257

1 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:

3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness U. My name is John Ostojic, and along

4 with Branko Lukic, we represent Dr. Milomir Stakic. I will be asking you

5 a series of questions here this afternoon, as the Court has informed you,

6 and I appreciate your candor in responding to them. You are still under

7 oath, sir.

8 Do you understand me?

9 A. Yes, fully.

10 Q. Can you tell me, sir, in the village and area of which you grew up

11 and came, whether anyone else shared the same last name and first name

12 other than yourself?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you want to go in private session?

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, okay.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6258

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Page 6265

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19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Sir, earlier --

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Usher may take away the list, please. Take away

24 the list, please.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 6266

1 Q. Sir, earlier today, you testified about various checkpoints that

2 inhibited you from going to the Prijedor area, if you recall. My question

3 to you, sir: Prior to April of 1992, were you aware of any Muslim

4 checkpoints that were put up in any part of the Prijedor Municipality?

5 A. Prior to April, no.

6 Q. How about during the month of April 1992, sir, were you aware of

7 any checkpoints?

8 A. In the Kozarac area, the TO was active, and I think that in May

9 checkpoints were set up in Kozarac itself. Not only do I think so but I

10 know it for a fact. That's the road into Kozarac.

11 Q. We'll discuss May in a moment, but with respect to April, are you

12 familiar whether or not the Territorial Defence, as you've identified them

13 in your previous answer, in Kozarac actually developed any or had any

14 checkpoints in April of 1992?

15 A. I couldn't say with any degree of certainty.

16 Q. With respect --

17 MR. OSTOJIC: Respectfully, Your Honour, there is a disagreement

18 with respect to the interpretation of the answer provided on line 18 of

19 page 63 of this witness's prior statement. And perhaps we could assist by

20 sharing with the Court and the interpreter what we believe the witness

21 said and how it was interpreted. I don't know if --

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's appropriate if you put the same

23 question once more briefly to the witness, and then let's see how the

24 translation will read.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

Page 6267

1 Q. Mr. Witness U, is it your testimony that you cannot say positively

2 or negatively whether or not there were Muslim checkpoints set up in April

3 of 1992?

4 A. I can't answer. It's not that I can't answer, I do not know in

5 that sense. The answer is neither yes nor no.

6 Q. Now, turning to May of 1992, I think you stated that you knew or

7 you knew for a fact that there were checkpoints in the Kozarac area. How

8 did you, sir, come to know that there were checkpoints that were manned

9 exclusively by the Muslim residents or the Muslims of the Territorial

10 Defence in Kozarac in May of 1992?

11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Excuse me, Your Honour. May I -- to clarify a

12 point whether the witness said that there were exclusively Muslim

13 checkpoints, I don't see any reference to Muslim checkpoints, neither in

14 the answer --

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Fair enough. Please rephrase the question.

16 MR. OSTOJIC:

17 Q. Sir, in May of 1992 in the Kozarac area, how many checkpoints were

18 you aware of?

19 A. There was one.

20 Q. And where was that, sir?

21 A. It was on the road when you leave Kozarac, that is, the approach

22 road leading up to the main road, Prijedor/Banja Luka Road, not far from

23 the sawmill, some 200 metres away, thereabouts. But this was in May,

24 sometime in May prior to the events which took place as of the 24th of

25 May.

Page 6268

1 Q. We'll get to the 24th of May in due course. But prior to that,

2 the checkpoint that you were familiar with, sir, can you identify for us

3 by whom was it manned?

4 A. The control was carried out by the members of the Prijedor

5 Territorial Defence, that is, the people from the area of Kozarac who were

6 officially members of the Prijedor Territorial Defence.

7 Q. Help me understand this, sir: Is it your testimony that there was

8 a separate Territorial Defence known as the TO of Kozarac and then yet

9 another Territorial Defence identified as the Territorial Defence of

10 Prijedor within that time period?

11 A. No. What I'm saying is that the Territorial Defence, that is,

12 when I speak about the Territorial Defence, I am referring to the people,

13 member of the reserve force of the Yugoslav army and who were active in

14 the area of Kozarac and whose command was located somewhere in the area of

15 Prijedor.

16 Q. What was the ethnic makeup of those people within that Territorial

17 Defence organisation that you're referencing, sir, that was at the

18 checkpoint near the road exiting Kozarac?

19 A. The makeup of the Territorial Defence, as far as the people whom I

20 knew are concerned, was mixed, people from various ethnic groups,

21 including Muslims.

22 Q. Sir, did you not say "the majority of which were Muslims"?

23 A. Yes, that's what I said.

24 Q. We're having a little trouble with respect to the interpretation,

25 and I thought you said that. When you say "majority were Muslims," sir,

Page 6269

1 of that checkpoint, can you quantify that for me?

2 A. There may have been a misunderstanding. I was referring to the

3 members of the Territorial Defence whom I knew in Kozarac. Specifically

4 as regards this checkpoint, I wasn't referring to this very checkpoint a

5 moment ago.

6 Q. Let's take it one step at a time, if we may. With respect to the

7 members of the Territorial Defence that you were aware of, I believe it's

8 your testimony that the majority of them were Muslims. Can you quantify

9 that amount for us?

10 A. As regards my assessment of the actual number, I don't want to

11 make a mistake. I can only speak about the people whom I knew personally,

12 people who were members of the civilian Territorial Defence. As for the

13 overall composition of the force, I cannot say anything. I'm not familiar

14 with it.

15 Q. Do you know what other ethnic groups were members of this civil

16 Territorial Defence that you reference in which you had known the majority

17 of Muslims made the composition of such?

18 A. So your question is who else was there, apart from Muslims,

19 members of which other ethnic groups, as far as I understand your

20 question.

21 Q. Correct.

22 A. Like I said, all of them were there, I mean all -- there were

23 people whom I knew by name and surname who were members of this

24 Territorial Defence and were of Serb ethnicity whom I would see from time

25 to time in uniforms of the Territorial Defence. But as regards the actual

Page 6270

1 number, I cannot tell you much about that. I can only speak about some

2 individuals.

3 Q. Just a couple questions if I may, in light of the time, ask on

4 this point, sir. Is it your testimony that in May of 1992, the

5 Territorial Defence was composed of both Muslim, Serb, and Croatian

6 groups?

7 A. In May, I don't know what the makeup was in the end but the

8 Territorial Defence was of mixed nature, of mixed character. When we talk

9 about various formations, there were people from various ethnic groups who

10 were members of the Territorial Defence.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I'm not sure if this is a good time to

12 break in light of the time. I think we're only allowed the courtroom

13 until 1.45. I obviously have more, and I may take another hour and-a-half

14 to two hours, Your Honour, just to let you know.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In the light of this, indeed --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: My apologies. It's necessary to have a break

18 now, and we continue then for another line of questions. Apparently you

19 said one and-a-half to two hours tomorrow?

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour, at the most.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then this concludes the 54th day of the

22 hearing. And I may ask the witness to come back tomorrow for additional

23 questions, both by the Defence and probably additional questions by the

24 Judges. Thank you for assisting us today. And resume tomorrow,

25 9.00 -- sorry, tomorrow in the afternoon at 14.15, and the courtroom will

Page 6271

1 be Courtroom I.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on

5 Tuesday, the 23rd day of July, 2002,

6 at 2.15 p.m.

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