1 Tuesday, 10 September 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, everybody. May we please hear the
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And appearances, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner assisted by Ruth Karper,
11 case manager. May I thank you Your Honour for the extra time you gave me
12 this morning.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And for the Defence, please.
14 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and Danilo
15 Cirkovic for the Defence.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
17 For the record, it has to be emphasised, first of all, that due to
18 the continuing illness of Judge Fassi Fihri, today we proceed under Rule
19 15 bis. As planned, let me please start making reference to the Status
20 Conference yesterday. As consented and explicitly consented by the
21 parties, we prepared yesterday the admission into evidence of some
22 documents. Yesterday, Judge Vassylenko took the opportunity to go through
23 all the documents. Later on, we discussed these, and we came to the
24 following conclusion: That based on this, the documents contained in List
25 7 all can be admitted into evidence explicitly, also Number 299 where,
1 during the Status Conference, it was not yet quite sure whether or not
2 this document was ripe for admission. But in the meantime, the Office of
3 the Prosecutor provided us with the complete English translation of this
4 document. Therefore, there is no reason not to introduce and admit this
5 into evidence.
6 On the other hand, I have to recall that a document with the ERN
7 number 03048407 is only - and this is true also for the future - is only
8 provisionally admitted as Exhibit S318 because the Defence asked for the
9 best possible original and to decide on the basis of this then available
11 So therefore, to conclude, it is hereby confirmed that all the
12 documents in List 7 are admitted into evidence under the numbers given to
13 those documents provisionally yesterday. In addition, the following
14 documents that had been earlier already a discussion were admitted: S254,
15 S267, S73. I have to recall that for the following documents, there are
16 still some problems: S242, S217, S210, S227B, S157-1.
17 Thank you. I just now got the hint not as the transcript reads,
18 and apparently I gave the wrong number. It's not S318, but 308, which was
19 not admitted into evidence from List 7.
20 We were aware of the objections given by the Defence, but based on
21 the discussion yesterday, we came to these conclusions. And for this
22 purpose, please, the transcript of yesterday be part of today's transcript
23 following immediately the pagination of today's transcript. All the
24 reasons and the discussions then can be immediately found on the basis of
25 this entire transcript.
1 Finally, I have to add that to Witness 65 ter Number 16, pseudonym
2 A, is attached and the additional documents provided by the OTP are
3 admitted under Rule 92 bis save the diary, diary which was not translated,
4 but the parties agree that it's not necessary to have these parts
5 translated. The necessary parts form part of the witness's testimony as
7 May I ask the parties, do you consent to this procedure? OTP,
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, subject to the same agreement the
10 Defence made yesterday, we do.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence, please.
12 MR. LUKIC: We also consent to these proceedings, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
14 May we then come to today's witness and first of all hear what
15 about protective measures? Normally it changes on a last-minute basis.
16 MS. KORNER: Actually, Your Honour, I'm afraid because of
17 yesterday's slightly dramatic proceedings and events in Brdjanin/Talic, I
18 never saw him and asked him if he was content. As far as I know, he will
19 testify in open session and no pseudonym required. And I think he would
20 have mentioned it. But perhaps it might be just as well if before his
21 name is given in open court, we just ask whether he is content.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm told by - helpfully by Ms. Karper as
24 ever - that we have here the original of S308. If anybody wants to see
25 that at this stage.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, can we do it during the break.
2 MS. KORNER: Yes, certainly. And S318 as well, so it's 308 and
3 318 are both here.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you very much.
5 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, can I just mention something else,
6 normal circumstances, you would have had, and Mr. Lukic, an extra document
7 from me, simply detailing two matters that the witness spoke to me about
8 yesterday. I've told Mr. Lukic that there was a problem yesterday, as I
9 say, and I didn't have an opportunity to put this into writing, but he
10 doesn't object. Firstly, the witness told me that although he knew
11 Dr. Stakic, or knew of him, because he was another doctor, he had never
12 met him and wasn't aware that he was anything to do with politics.
13 And secondly, he told me of an incident that took place in
14 Trnopolje where a woman was shot, but it seems that Mr. Lukic was aware of
15 this already. So I'm passing this on in advance. I'm sorry that it
16 wasn't in written form.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. There shouldn't be an obstacle --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- Such extreme health problems with another
20 accused in another case, no doubt, this has priority.
21 I don't see any obstacle to start immediately with the witness.
22 MS. KORNER: No.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May the usher please escort the witness into the
25 Could we please, to be on the safe side, start in private session
1 and ask the witness whether or not there is due cause shown for any
2 protective measure.
3 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I'm sorry, it is
4 something I should have asked. I don't believe there will be a problem.
5 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 WITNESS: IDRIZ MERDZANIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examined by Ms. Korner:
9 Q. Dr. Merdzanic, is your name Idriz Merdzanic?
10 A. Yes, that is correct, my name is Idriz Merdzanic.
11 Q. And were you born on the 2 second of January, 1959, and so you are
12 now aged, by my addition, 43?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And are you a Bosniak by ethnicity or nationality?
15 A. Yes, I'm a Bosniak.
16 Q. Dr. Merdzanic, I want to ask you about the events of 1992, between
17 April and September in particular. But can I just ask you a little bit
18 about your background, first. I think it's right that after leaving
19 school, you attended the faculty of medicine in Banja Luka.
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. And did you do so between 1978 and 1986?
22 A. Yes, I attended the medical school, the medical faculty, in
23 Banja Luka.
24 Q. I think on completing that part of your education, you did your
25 military service with the JNA, in fact, with a helicopter unit?
1 A. It is common knowledge that in our country, all military-aged men
2 are liable to mandatory military service, which is what I did. And I was
3 a member of the helicopter unit, but as a physician.
4 Q. Now, after you had completed your military service, did you get a
5 job in an outpatient clinic as a general practitioner in Prijedor?
6 A. Correct, yes, at the Prijedor health centre.
7 Q. I think that was an internship, and thereafter, having passed your
8 final exams and obtained your license to practice, did you get a full-time
9 job as a physician in Prijedor?
10 A. The internship lasted one year. It was not specialisation. It
11 was an obligatory internship that one is supposed to do after completing
12 the faculty of medicine. After that, one has to pass the professional
13 examination, which I did, and after that, I was given a permanent post at
14 the Prijedor health centre.
15 Q. Now, I think the Prijedor health centre actually covered a number
16 of different areas including Trnopolje, Kozarac, Omarska, Ljubija, and
18 A. It covered the entire area of the Prijedor Municipality.
19 Q. And in 1991, did you begin working at a clinic which was part of
20 the sawmill in Kozarac?
21 A. I was first in charge of the local clinic, outpatient clinic, in
22 Trnopolje. And in addition to that, I was also assigned to the sawmill
23 outpatient clinic in Trnopolje, but that was only, as far as I remember,
24 twice a week.
25 Q. Right. I'm sorry. Did you say Trnopolje?
1 A. Correct. I was in charge of the Trnopolje outpatient clinic, and
2 I worked as a physician in Trnopolje. And in addition to that outpatient
3 clinic, I was given an assignment at the sawmill in Kozarac where I was in
4 charge of treating employees of that company.
5 Q. All right. Now, can I move straight away to the accused in this
6 case, Dr. Milomir Stakic. Did you personally ever meet Dr. Stakic before
8 A. We do not know each other personally, though there is a
9 possibility that we may have passed each other somewhere in the street.
10 But as I said, we don't know each other personally.
11 Q. Did you yourself take any interest in politics after -- between
12 1990 and 1992?
13 A. I was never involved in politics. I didn't have time for that,
14 but I also never expressed any interest in politics, and I am not
15 interested in politics to this date.
16 Q. Did you ever become aware of Dr. Stakic's entry into political
18 A. I wasn't aware of the fact that he was involved in politics, but I
19 heard that he was working in Omarska as a physician there, that he got a
20 job there.
21 Q. Can I, then, move to asking you, please, a little bit, just about
22 events before April of 1992. We know that the village of Kozarac, for
23 example, was primarily a Muslim village. You, yourself, I think were
24 living in Prijedor. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, I was living in Prijedor.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Before the multiparty elections in 1990, were there any problems
2 or difficulties between the various ethnicities in Prijedor?
3 A. I personally didn't notice any such thing and did not personally
4 experience any problems. I had many friends amongst Serbs. I think that
5 I had more Serb friends than any other ethnicities.
6 Q. When the war in Croatia started in the middle of 1991, as far as
7 you were concerned, did that make any difference to relationships between
9 A. I think that it did bring about certain change, that is, the JNA
10 had mobilised all military-aged men to fight in Croatia, in the war in
11 Croatia. Muslims and Croats, the majority of them, did not want to
12 respond to this mobilisation whereas all Serbs went and even volunteered
13 in many cases to go to Croatia to fight the war there.
14 Q. And did that have any difference on the attitude that Serbs took
15 towards the Muslim or Croatian population in the Prijedor area?
16 A. Yes, it did make a difference. Even such people who failed to
17 respond to the callup were -- were tracked down by the military police,
18 and then forcibly taken to the front. The result was that both Muslims
19 and Croats had to go into hiding.
20 Q. I want to move from there to 1992. Did you become aware or hear
21 about any arms being distributed, weapons?
22 A. As the war in Croatia had been going on for some time, it was
23 quite natural for people to talk about war, about the events throughout
24 ex-Yugoslavia. It was through these conversations that I found out that
25 most Serbs had been given weapons. Some people said that those weapons
1 had been distributed by the Serbian army, and only given to certain
2 families. On the other hand, most of the Serbs who went to fight in
3 Croatia, once they returned home, they would not bring their weapons back
4 to the army barracks but brought the weapons home instead.
5 Q. Now, when did you first become aware that there were problems
6 arising in Prijedor?
7 A. What problems exactly are you referring to?
8 Q. First of all, problems of movement.
9 A. As far as movement is concerned, there was a military unit that
10 had fought in Croatia. It was a combat military unit which took Prijedor
11 overnight literally. They stormed all the important buildings, the
12 municipal building, the courts. They set up checkpoints. And the next
13 morning, on my way to work, I was stopped at a checkpoint. I had to leave
14 my car. I had to open the trunk of my car. I had to produce my
16 Q. And that was on your way to work where?
17 A. I was supposed to be on my way to work, my work in Trnopolje. But
18 I realised that there would be a lot of difficulty entailed in that, so I
19 went to the health centre in Prijedor in order to ask and find out what
20 was going on and whether it was possible to go to work outside of Prijedor
21 in the first place.
22 Q. And were you -- sorry.
23 A. It was then that I noticed that there were military in the health
24 centre, and they also IDed me.
25 Q. Were you able to go to work that day in Trnopolje?
1 A. I don't think I was able to go to work on that particular day.
2 Q. All right. Now, can you remember how long before the attack on
3 Kozarac did that incident take place?
4 A. I couldn't tell you precisely.
5 Q. All right. So these checkpoints were set up, and the buildings in
6 Prijedor had been taken over. Did you continue -- I'm sorry.
7 A. Yes, in Prijedor.
8 Q. Did you continue over the next few weeks your work in Trnopolje
9 and in Kozarac?
10 A. The next day, I went to work. I was being stopped and IDed at
11 checkpoints. But apart from that, there was no further difficulty
12 entailed in getting there. There was also a checkpoint at the crossroads
13 outside Kozarac, and there was a tank there.
14 Q. Now, can I move, then, to how things built up. You told us that
15 there was a checkpoint at the crossroads outside Kozarac and a tank. Did
16 you become aware of other army personnel or vehicles in the vicinity of
18 A. I did not myself see any, but I heard that both artillery and
19 tanks had arrived in Prijedor and had been deployed at certain
20 strategically important points.
21 Q. And was one of those points around Kozarac?
22 A. I suppose so. But I do not really know myself.
23 Q. All right. Now, how easy after the arrival of artillery and tanks
24 was it for people to leave Kozarac?
25 A. At the very beginning, yes, you could leave Kozarac through the
1 checkpoints. You had checkpoints not only near Kozarac but also in
2 Orlovci, that's between Kozarac and Prijedor. And the other road, if you
3 took the road from Trnopolje for Prijedor, there were also checkpoints
4 along that road. But ever since the ultimatum by the Serbs concerning
5 Kozarac expired, from that moment on, Muslims were no longer allowed to
6 leave Kozarac.
7 Q. Now, can I ask you about the ultimatum, please. What was the
9 A. As far as I knew, what the whole situation was really about is
10 that the ethnic makeup in Kozarac was almost 98 per cent Muslim. And it
11 was the same with the Kozarac police force. The police were supposed to
12 accept Serb insignia and put up Serbian flags all over Kozarac, but they
13 refused to do so. Negotiations took place, and as far as I know Stojan
14 Zupljanin led the Serb party in these negotiations. I can't remember
15 exactly who attended for the Muslim side. I think Esad Sadikovic was
16 there, and some other people from Kozarac and Prijedor, too.
17 Q. All right. So there were negotiations. How did the negotiations
18 end up, as far as you know?
19 A. I think that they were not successful. What I heard is that
20 Stojan Zupljanin did not really come there to negotiate. He gave an
21 ultimatum and gave a deadline. And he said unless his conditions, his
22 requests were met, by that time the army would take Kozarac by force.
23 Q. Who did you hear about all this from? Did you hear about this
24 from people involved in the negotiations?
25 A. I heard about this from my patients and from the personnel, people
1 who worked with me. This was a much debated topic in those days.
2 Q. Did you ever hear over the radio or on television any ultimatum
3 about a deadline for the surrender of weapons?
4 A. No, I didn't.
5 Q. Did you have a radio?
6 A. No, we did not have a radio set at the outpatient clinic, but I
7 can't remember anyone telling me about seeing or hearing anything on TV or
8 the local radio.
9 Q. All right. Now, were people who were in need of hospital
10 treatment allowed to pass through the checkpoints?
11 A. When the ultimatum expired, people were no longer allowed to leave
13 Q. I want to come on, then, now, please, to any actions that you took
14 before the attack. Did you speak to any Muslim leaders in Kozarac before
15 the attack?
16 A. Immediately before the attack, when the ultimatum expired, I heard
17 from people I talked to in Kozarac that Sead Cirkin, who was an active
18 military officer, was trying to organise some sort of defence for Kozarac.
19 I heard that there were some armed people. One of the workers from the
20 sawmill - I can't remember his name now - took me to see Sead Cirkin. I
21 asked him to. I wanted to talk to Sead Cirkin to see what the role of the
22 outpatient clinic would be in the case of an attack. He was staying at
23 the outskirts of Kozarac, not in Kozarac itself. And his answer was not
24 really very specific. He just gave me general guidelines. He told me to
25 stay put at the outpatient clinic and just continue doing my job, and that
1 he and his people in their turn would try to do theirs. Our contact was
2 not very comprehensive.
3 Q. All right. Now, as far as that was concerned, namely, that you
4 should continue doing your job at the outpatient clinic, did you obtain
5 any extra supplies?
6 A. No, we had no extra supplies. Kozarac was cut off, and there was
7 no one to obtain extra supplies from. The only thing we had was a
8 pharmacy in Kozarac itself, so we took the supplies from that pharmacy and
9 brought all the supplies from the pharmacy to the outpatient clinic.
10 Q. Were you anticipating that there would be an attack on Kozarac?
11 A. At the beginning, we didn't think there would be an attack. But
12 later on, you could see from the first floor of the outpatient clinic in
13 the direction of Prijedor, Prijedor and Hambarine, and from the direction
14 of Ljubija, you could see explosions clearly at night. You could see
15 houses burning. Then we heard stories from people that Carakovo and
16 Hambarine had been under artillery fire for two or three days, and that
17 everything had already been burned down. I think some people may have
18 been able to get in touch with other people through radio communication.
19 At any rate, the phone lines were down.
20 Q. And I want to come now, please, to the actual attack itself. Can
21 you remember the date that the attack started at this stage?
22 A. The attack started on the 24th of May, I think in the afternoon.
23 Q. When it started --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' correction: Around noon.
25 MS. KORNER:
1 Q. When it started, were you actually in the clinic?
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q. I'd like you, please, now to have a look at some photographs of
4 the clinic.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, these are new exhibits, I think, which
6 were handed in to Your Honours and to the Defence yesterday. No, I'm told
7 you don't have these. Can I ask they be handed in now. I think the
8 copies were being made yesterday.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, is this once again a collection of
10 several photographs and additional photographs that we attach only one
11 number, and then continue -1, -2 as usual?
12 MS. KORNER: Yes, Ms. Sutherland and Ms. Karper are very keen that
13 they should stay under S15 and be added on to those. They think it easier
14 if you keep the photographs together.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Shouldn't be a problem. If we may hear what
16 would be the next available dash under S15.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are four photographs numbered
18 respectively 0039-3194, 5, 6, and 8.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
20 MS. KORNER: They are taken, Your Honours --
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: From this follows, the photo ending with 94 will
22 be S15-37; 95, -38; 96, -39; 98, -40. Any objections?
23 MR. LUKIC: No objections.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence.
25 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Your Honours, the date they
1 were taken can be seen, It was in February -- it's American date, so
2 it's written backwards, but it's the 20th of February, 1996.
3 Yes, I wonder if they could be shown to the doctor, please.
4 Q. Can we look at please, first of all, the one that's marked 3198.
5 I've forgotten what number that is now. But it's the last.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -40.
7 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
8 Q. You'll see it coming up on the screen, Doctor.
9 MS. KORNER: I wonder if we can make it clearer. It's an awful
10 picture on the screen. Any way of zooming in on it or making it clearer?
11 No. All right.
12 Q. Doctor, do you recognise that as a photograph of the Kozarac
14 A. Yes, this is the Kozarac clinic. This is the entrance. On the
15 left-hand side, there's a path. There used to be a gate here. On this
16 side and to the right, you can see the entrance to the outpatient clinic.
17 That's the south side.
18 Q. I wonder if you could be handed a pointer, and if you just
19 indicate on -- you'll see the photographs next to you here. It is going
20 to be turned around. Just indicate again. The entrance to the clinic was
22 A. The entrance itself here. There's a few steps here. And then
23 here we had a gate. There was a yard outside and a parking lot.
24 Q. All right. At the time in 1992, was there -- were there any
25 markings on it to indicate that this was a clinic?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. There were no very conspicuous internal signs, but on the roof
2 there may have been a very huge red or white cross, but I'm not sure.
3 Q. In Kozarac itself, where was the sawmill when looking at the main
4 road of Kozarac, how far back?
5 A. The sawmill was just off the main road at the junction. On the
6 way into Kozarac from the junction, the sawmill was the first building on
7 the left.
8 Q. So we can just establish this, could you be shown the map which is
9 Exhibit S146.
10 MS. KORNER: Again, we'll have it put on the ELMO. We'll take the
11 photograph away.
12 Q. Just using the same pointer, indicate to us on that where the...
13 A. At the junction here, that's where the sawmill was.
14 Q. Right. Yes, thank you.
15 And then can we look at the other photographs, please, next, if we
16 go to the one that had 3194, which is S15-37. Is that a close-up of the
18 A. Yes, yes. That's the entrance to the clinic. And on the
19 left-hand side next to the steps, you can see the entrance to the cellar.
20 That's where we had to go when the shelling began.
21 Q. The damage that we can see -- now, these photographs were taken
22 some -- just under four years later. But was that damage there when you
23 left Kozarac after the shelling?
24 A. Well, probably some of the damage changed with time. But the
25 windows were shattered and the walls had suffered heavy damage. And
1 outside the entrance was where shells kept falling. But most shells were
2 falling from the north, from Mount Kozara, and from the left. The shells
3 were falling from the direction to the left of Prijedor.
4 Q. All right. Thank you. If you look then just at the remaining --
5 A. The image we were looking at before, you could see that all the
6 windows were shattered.
7 Q. We're going to look at another photograph which is 3195, which is
9 A. Here you can see the walls pimpled by bullets or shrapnel.
10 Q. Doctor, if you wouldn't mind, turn towards the photograph itself
11 and indicate it. Sorry.
12 A. Yes, yes, right. All these marks here, shrapnel marks, not a
13 single window. Look at the roof here, you can see that the roof, too, was
14 burned through in several places. It's a bit difficult to notice, but
15 even here outside in the yard, there are craters created by shells
17 Q. The signs that are visible on the wall in the circles, were those
18 on the wall of the clinic before the shelling?
19 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness please be asked to repeat the
21 MS. KORNER:
22 Q. Could you repeat the answer, I'm sorry Doctor. The interpreters
23 didn't catch that.
24 A. No. This came about during the shelling. And prior to the
25 shelling, the building was in good condition.
1 Q. Yes. Sorry. We can see on the walls there's a sort of circle
2 with a cross of sorts on them. Were those there before the shelling?
3 A. No. I can't remember ever seeing those there prior to the
5 Q. Do they have any significance that you know of? What do they
7 A. No, I really don't know.
8 Q. And then finally, if we look, please, at 3196, which has got the
9 number now S15-39, I think we can more clearly see the damage, the
10 markings, that you're talking about.
11 A. Yes. That's correct. Only from the north side, you must know,
12 the damage was greater than to the south side of the building. The side
13 of the building facing south.
14 Q. Yes. And that's what we're looking at, south-facing side of the
16 A. Yes. That's the south side.
17 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor.
18 Now, you told us, before we looked at the photographs, that the
19 shelling, the attack, started around noon on the 24th of May. At the time
20 you were in the clinic, were there other medical personnel there?
21 A. You're quite right; I was not alone at the clinic. There were
22 other medical personnel there together with us.
23 Q. Can you name the people who were there with you, please.
24 A. Mensur Kusuran, also a physician was there, too. Azra was there.
25 She is a veterinarian, and her husband.
1 Q. Just before we go on, can you tell us, what was Azra's surname?
2 A. Blazevic.
3 Q. Yes. She was a veterinarian. And her husband. Anyone else?
4 A. Yes. She was a veterinarian, and she also worked in Kozarac as a
5 vet. There was a midwife there. We all called her Babica, midwife,
6 because she used to work as a midwife but was now working as a nurse in
7 Kozarac. Her husband was also there. His name was Mujo, who was a
8 paramedic. Then there was Vasif Gutic, a medical student. A woman by the
9 name of Goga who lived in the neighbourhood. She was a Serb, and she had
10 come to the clinic to help us. Then there was a young woman there by the
11 name of Lejla. A couple whose last name was Husidic. The woman's name
12 was Albina, and his name was Senad. And there was also Dr. Pasic who had
13 come to the clinic after the start of the shelling. His house was right
14 next to the clinic.
15 Q. Now, how did you first become aware of the attack?
16 A. Well, at the time the shells started to fall around.
17 Q. Were you aware that the shelling was going to start that day? In
18 other words, had there been any prior warning as far as you were concerned
19 the town was to be shelled that day?
20 A. No. At least, I was not aware of that. We, at the clinic, didn't
21 know anything about it.
22 Q. All right. So the shelling started. Were you able to tell,
23 because of your military service, where the shells came from? In other
24 words, were they artillery, tanks?
25 A. There were several of us at the clinic. Naturally, we discussed
1 it. We tried to figure out what would be the best room for us and for the
2 wounded, where we should accommodate the wounded. And we discussed the
3 layout of the hospital, where was the most dangerous side of the hospital.
4 And we concluded that the most sensitive area was the one exposed to
5 Kozara mountain. The majority of the shells were coming from that
6 direction and that is why we decided to go to the cellar which was located
7 at the south side of the clinic.
8 Q. How long did that shelling go on for?
9 A. The shelling lasted for about two days with brief lulls. The next
10 day, around noon, there was a lull in the shelling, but on the whole it
11 lasted for about two days.
12 Q. Were there any what could be considered military targets near
13 where your clinic was, in other words machine-gun posts or artillery
14 returning fire?
15 A. No, not at all. There was nothing of that kind in the vicinity of
16 Kozarac, and I don't think there was anything of any military interest in
17 Kozarac. There were only civilians in Kozarac, except for the Cirkin
18 group of men who were outside Kozarac actually. But I didn't notice, as
19 far as the Muslim side is concerned, any checkpoints or any weapons.
20 Q. Was anybody given an opportunity to leave Kozarac before the
21 shelling began? In other words, women or children or the elderly?
22 A. No. As far as I know, initially, that is, prior to the attack, I
23 was thinking about leaving Kozarac and going home. But then people
24 started coming in, people who had been turned back at the Orlovci
25 checkpoint. The Serbs manning the checkpoint there IDed people, and those
1 who were from Kozarac were returned. I know that because there were two
2 pregnant women just about to give birth who were sent back to Kozarac.
3 And I delivered their babies.
4 Q. Was that normal? Would the clinic normally deal with the delivery
5 of babies?
6 A. No, we never delivered babies in Kozarac. There was a maternity
7 ward in Prijedor, and one in Banja Luka.
8 Q. Now, during the course of that shelling, did you treat people who
9 were injured as a result? Or if not the shelling, any further attacks?
10 A. Those who managed to reach us despite the shelling were given
11 assistance to the extent we were able to.
12 Q. Were those who reached you, were they injured from the shelling,
13 in other words, the debris, or were they injured for other reasons?
14 A. We had a young man at the clinic who claimed that he had been
15 wounded with a shrapnel to his big toe. We had another man who had an
16 entry gunshot wound to his chest. But it must have been fired -- the
17 bullet must have been fired from far away because he was in relatively
18 good shape.
19 Q. When you say relatively far away, what made you say that?
20 A. If fire is opened from a rifle, and if a person is hit, then the
21 wound is deeper if the bullet was fired from a close distance. In that
22 case, the bullet also exits the body of the person. He was wounded to his
23 chest, to the right area of the chest. And I think that the bullet
24 stopped somewhere in his bones. It did not actually get through his body.
25 Q. The man who - the boy - I'm sorry, the young man who had a toe
1 injured, what did you do in relation to him as far as treatment was
3 A. Well, the toe was practically ripped off. There was very tissue
4 left, and we had to severe it. We cleaned his wound and applied bandages
5 to it.
6 Q. What happened to the man who had been shot in the chest? Did he
8 A. From what I heard, he survived. The next day, he went with us to
9 another location. He ended up in Omarska, I think. But whether he
10 survived Omarska, that, I don't know. There was another patient there, a
11 Serb, who had a shrapnel wound to his abdomen, to his stomach. He had
12 been brought to the clinic by Muslims who tried to help him. He was a
13 forest keeper from Kozarac, and he was wearing the usual uniform.
14 Q. Did you treat any children who were injured as a result of the
16 A. Some children were wounded during the attack, but we admitted them
17 only the next day after the clinic had been relocated.
18 Q. And what about women?
19 A. We had women, too, wounded women. But also at the other location,
20 on the following day. While we were still there at the clinic, we had
21 another civilian who had been brought in dead.
22 Q. Now, you say that you went to another location on the following
23 day. How did you achieve that?
24 A. We noticed and were told by the people who had managed to reach us
25 that it was actually very difficult to get to the clinic. We heard that
1 the majority of the civilian population was afraid, and that most of them
2 had left Kozarac and gone to the woods in panic. And this is why we tried
3 to leave that area ourselves. We went towards the Mount Kozara.
4 Q. And where did you establish your second clinic, as it were, second
5 location of a clinic?
6 A. The second location of the clinic was at the outskirts of Kozarac
7 town on the left side of the main road. It was sheltered by a small wood
8 and a hill. It was housed in a building which was not finished. It was
9 located near a creek. The building itself did not have any doors or
10 windows, but it was naturally protected so that from the direction of
11 Prijedor and from the Kozara mountain, there could be no shells that would
12 eventually hit this building.
13 Q. All right. And did you yourself try and speak to the authorities
14 in respect of the wounded?
15 A. At the time, we had two children at the clinic who were dying. We
16 were practically unable to help them, and I was very upset by the fact.
17 We had other wounded people, of course, but -- well, at any rate, we were
18 located on the ground floor. On the first floor, there was a police
19 vehicle and several police officers there. They were in contact with the
20 military via radio communication, and I asked whether I could try and
21 negotiate the passage of the wounded. And this is what they enabled me to
23 Q. The police officers, were they Muslims police officers?
24 A. Yes, as far as I know.
25 Q. Okay. You were allowed, or you tried to negotiate the passage of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the wounded. Do you know who you spoke to?
2 A. I don't know who was contacted for that purpose in particular, but
3 the same radio station, the same frequency, was used for that purpose.
4 The same as the one which was used for the purposes of negotiating the
5 surrender of Prijedor and the departure of the population from Kozarac. I
6 think that the contact was -- had been established with the military
7 command that was actually attacking Kozarac.
8 Q. What did you -- the person to whom you spoke, what did you say to
9 him that you wanted to do or wanted to happen?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' correction: The surrender of
11 Kozarac, page 25, line 2.
12 A. I introduced myself and told him that we had two children with us.
13 There was a little girl there whose lower legs, both of them were
14 completely shattered. She was dying. And then we had another child...
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 11.20.
16 --- Break taken at 10.48 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. And evidently, we can
19 continue immediately, please.
20 MS. KORNER:
21 Q. Doctor, I realise this is distressing for you to recall these
22 events. So perhaps we can just deal with this fairly quickly. Were you
23 given permission to take these injured children out of Kozarac?
24 A. No, I wasn't. I couldn't evacuate the children or the other
25 wounded who were there. The reply we received was not very specific. The
1 only thing they told us is: "Let all of you balija" - derogatory for
2 Muslims - "die there. We'll kill you all anyway." So that's what the
3 conversation was about.
4 Q. Now, eventually, on the 26th of May, were the terms of surrender
5 agreed upon?
6 A. The police using the same radio stations agreed on the terms of
7 surrender for Kozarac.
8 Q. And did you become aware of any of the terms of the surrender?
9 A. No, not in detail. What I did know, however, is that the wounded
10 were to lead the way, to be the first in the convoy, those who had
11 survived, followed by policemen, and then -- who in turn were followed by
12 civilians, and they were supposed to walk down the middle of the road.
13 And that's all I know.
14 Q. Now, did the shelling then stop that morning?
15 A. Yes, that's when the shelling stopped.
16 Q. And what did you decide to do, you the persons who were in the
17 makeshift clinic?
18 A. We discussed briefly what to do and decided to go back to the
19 original clinic because we assumed that many of the civilians who were
20 either in their own homes or in the woods surrounding Kozarac did not know
21 about the surrender in the first place and that they would come to the
22 clinic seeking help. So that's why we decided to go back to the clinic.
23 Q. When you got back to the clinic, did further wounded come for your
25 A. No. Even the dead body we had left behind was no longer there.
1 Q. You say that you were worried that people wouldn't hear about the
2 surrender and therefore might come to the clinic. Did you become aware of
3 people who had not found out about the surrender?
4 A. I did later on, when we were in the Trnopolje camp. A woman
5 arrived there, her last name was Sahoric, an elderly woman. She had come
6 to the clinic seeking help. And then later she wanted assistance in
7 burying some bodies. She talked to Vasif Gutic and to me. She said that
8 her husband, herself, and a number of neighbours were in the cellar. And
9 that they were found there by soldiers. First they took them out of the
10 cellar, and then threw them back into the cellar, and then a soldier fired
11 a rifle-launched grenade into the cellar. Everyone was killed in the
12 cellar, and she was the only one who remained alive. We sent her to see
13 Major Kuruzovic, and I don't know what happened later. I know that that
14 woman later left, and that she lived in Germany.
15 Q. Let's go back, then, to the events of the 26th of May, after the
16 surrender. You and your colleagues returned to the original clinic.
17 Later that day, did some Serb soldiers arrive?
18 A. Three Serb soldiers arrived. They entered the clinic and captured
19 us. One of them was quite a well-known face. He was from Trnopolje. As
20 soon as I remember the name, I'll tell you. I can't remember now, but
21 I'll tell you as soon as I can.
22 Azra, the vet, knew him personally. The other two were persons no
23 one seemed to know, and their accent was heavily Ekavian, which probably
24 implied that they were not from Bosnia but rather from a different region.
25 Q. Were any of them wearing any particular type of uniform?
1 A. The one people knew wore, I think, a camouflage olive-drab
2 uniform. And the other two wore green camouflage uniforms. One of them
3 was wearing a red beret, and they all wore the same armbands.
4 Q. Now, did these three soldiers say anything about what was to
5 happen to you at the clinic?
6 A. The one bearing the beret, he went up to the first floor. He
7 opened all the doors. He kept yelling, saying that everyone was to be
8 killed. The remaining two, including the one people knew, they called the
9 woman who had the name Goga written on her apron, which showed that she
10 was a Serb. So they called her for an interview. And then the soldier
11 from Trnopolje left the building and returned after a short while. He
12 told us then that there would be a lorry arriving soon on to which we were
13 to load the medicines from the clinic, and that we would then be taken
14 somewhere else.
15 Q. And did a lorry arrive then, a little later?
16 A. After a while, a green military lorry with JNA insignia arrived,
17 and we loaded on to it all the supplies we had at the clinic.
18 Q. Did the truck leave, then?
19 A. Yes, the truck left. And those three soldiers escorted us in a
20 convoy to the centre of Kozarac.
21 Q. Did you ever see that truck and the medical supplies again?
22 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness please be asked to repeat the
24 MS. KORNER:
25 Q. I'm sorry, could you just say that again. The interpreters didn't
1 catch it.
2 A. No, I never saw the lorry again, nor the medical supplies in it.
3 Q. I think, Doctor, it would probably help if you pull your chair a
4 little closer to the microphone. That will help. Thank you.
5 Now, as you were taken to the centre of Kozarac, what was the
6 damage like, that you saw?
7 A. What we saw there, and on the way there, soldiers breaking into
8 houses. It was obvious that most of them were just simply looting, taking
9 things out of the houses. One of them tried to use a car to take things
10 away from a house. Once we arrived in the centre of Kozarac, there were
11 at least two tanks there and a lot of soldiers all over the place. We
12 stopped there in the middle of the road. And there was a tree there, and
13 that's where we waited.
14 Q. All right. In a moment, I'm going to ask you to look at a plan
15 that you drew for us of Kozarac so that you can indicate these places.
16 But did you have occasion to pass the mosque?
17 A. No, I did not pass by the mosque, and I really paid no attention.
18 Q. All right. Can you now look, please, at the plan that you
19 provided to the investigator, of Kozarac.
20 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honours -- you were given copies, I'm
21 told. Your Honours, unless there's an objection, could that be marked
22 S321, we believe, Ms. Karper believes.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have a number of sketches. Could you please
24 give us the ERN number.
25 MS. KORNER: Yes, I could. It's 0103 -- I'm sorry, yes 01035313.
1 And it's entitled "Kozarac."
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. This would be -- if there are no
3 objections and I can't see any, S3 --
4 MS. KORNER: 321. And could we make that -1, Your Honour, because
5 there's a couple more sketches I'm going to be asking the witness to look
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm afraid it's already 332, registry, can you
8 help us out?
9 THE REGISTRAR: No, it would be S321, Your Honour, -1.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, we took the pictures as 15. Okay. Then
11 let's start with -1 for this.
12 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
13 Q. Doctor, if you'd like to have a look, we can put the plan on the
14 ELMO and you can look at it. I think you marked for us the main road, the
15 Banja Luka/Prijedor Road, and then the sawmill to the left, as you look at
16 it, of the road going to Prijedor. And then the pharmacy and where the
17 temporary clinic was that you told us about, which is going, as you say,
18 towards the other end of the road.
19 When you were marched down -- taken to Kozarac -- I'm sorry, taken
20 by the soldiers to the centre of Kozarac, where did you end up? Just
21 indicate on the plan.
22 A. Right here, this spot here.
23 Q. And just while you're looking there, you've marked what appears to
24 be a religious building of some kind to the right of the main Kozarac
25 street. Can you just tell us what that is that you've marked there?
1 A. You mean the Serb church here?
2 Q. Yeah. That's the Serb church?
3 A. That's the Serb church in Kozarac.
4 Q. Just out of interest, where was the mosque?
5 A. I really have no idea. A bit further to the north, I think. It
6 wasn't downtown.
7 Q. Okay, thank you.
8 All right, thank you. Now, you say, as you were taken
9 there - that's all, thank you very much - you saw people looting houses.
10 Do you remember, were those houses damaged by the shelling?
11 A. There were a lot of houses that had been damaged, but not really
12 completely destroyed. You had marks of shelling, roofs caving in, windows
13 shattered. But most of the houses were in rather good condition.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MS. KORNER: For the benefit of the usher, I'm not going to be
16 showing the diagram again at the moment.
17 Q. Were there other people in the centre when you arrived?
18 A. You mean civilians?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Not that I noticed. That's aside from us.
21 Q. All right. Now, whilst you were standing near this tree in the
22 centre, were you approached by any members of the military?
23 A. Nihad Bahonjic, the ambulance driver in Kozarac, was approached by
24 a soldier. I did not know that soldier. He wanted to see his ID. And
25 once he saw his ID, he told him to follow him, and he took him away from
1 our group.
2 Q. Did any of you make any inquiry as to why he was being taken away?
3 A. Why he was taken away. When a jeep arrived to take us away, too,
4 and when we got into the jeep, they -- I saw they weren't bringing
5 Bahonjic back. So I asked one of the soldiers with a rank, a military
6 rank, what had happened to Nihad Bahonjic, and they answered that they
7 would take care of him.
8 Q. How long after he had been taken from your group did the jeep
9 arrive which took you away?
10 A. I couldn't say precisely.
11 Q. A short or a long time is what I mean.
12 A. Well, that depends on what exactly you mean by "short" or "long."
13 Q. All right.
14 A. But certainly not more than half an hour.
15 Q. All right. Now, after you'd asked what was happening to
16 Mr. Bahonjic, and you were told that they would take care of him, did you
17 hear anything?
18 A. We were all compelled, forced, to get on to the jeep. And we
19 drove out of Kozarac towards the junction. I tried to pay attention and
20 see which road we were taking. Apparently, we were heading in the
21 direction of Banja Luka, and you could hear sounds of shots fired there.
22 And apparently, Bahonjic was then killed, and Azra claimed later that she
23 saw him killed.
24 Q. How old was Mr. Bahonjic?
25 A. He may have been 35, 36 years old at that time. He had a wife and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 two children.
2 Q. Can you just again give us the first name of Mr. Bahonjic.
3 A. Nihad Bahonjic.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 All right. So you were driven off, and where were you taken to?
6 A. At first, we headed towards Prijedor, and then there was a cafe to
7 the left and a dirt track passing by. So we took a left turn. We pulled
8 over by the dirt track. There were several soldiers standing there. Many
9 of them officers with high ranks.
10 Q. And did you remain in the jeep, or were you made to get out?
11 A. We remained in the jeep briefly. Then we got out. They took out
12 of the jeep Senad Husidic. Meanwhile, a bus arrived from Prijedor with
13 women and children. And then they told the rest of us to get on to the
14 bus. Husidic's wife asked what the fate of Senad would be and whether he
15 would join us. But they told her that he was a Green Beret and that he
16 took part in supplying weapons to the local Muslims and that he would have
17 to stay there. His wife then begged them to let him go and said that he
18 had had nothing to do with any of that. And we told them that he was at
19 the clinic with us. And then the higher-ranking officer of the two
20 decided to allow him to get on to the bus. However, as soon as we got
21 to -- as we arrived in Trnopolje, they came for him the next day, and he
22 was then taken to Omarska.
23 Q. And do you know what happened to him eventually?
24 A. I'm not sure whether he was later transferred to Manjaca from
25 Omarska. At any rate, he survived, and I think later he lived somewhere
1 in Germany.
2 Q. All right. So did the bus then take you to Trnopolje?
3 A. That bus, yes.
4 Q. Now, you were familiar with Trnopolje obviously because you had
5 worked there. When you arrived at Trnopolje, was there already a camp
6 which had been set up?
7 A. The moment we arrived, we knew nothing about any camps. We
8 couldn't tell if it was a camp or not. There were a lot of soldiers
9 there, civilians, too, women, children. It was only later that we found
10 out that actually it was a camp.
11 Q. When you arrived, where did the bus unload all its passengers, all
12 of you?
13 A. I can point this out to you on one of the photographs or sketches.
14 If you have a sketch of that, perhaps I could point it out to you because
15 it's difficult to explain verbally.
16 Q. Yes. First of all, I would ask you to look at a sketch that you
17 provided, again, to the investigator which bears the number 0103531.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the last digit, please?
19 MS. KORNER: 4. 314, sorry. It slightly disappeared on my copy.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be, then, 321-2.
21 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
22 A. Can I start speaking?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I think the bus stopped here. This is the Prijedor/Trnopolje
25 Road. There was a small path here, a narrow path. And then we got off
1 the bus and took this path. And there were soldiers lined up all along
2 this path. The women stayed behind, and they were sent to this hall. I
3 was recognised, and they said: "Oh, here's our doctor." And they told me
4 to go to the clinic. And then we all went to the clinic.
5 Q. All right. And I just want to see -- I think we may --
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You indicated the clinic. May you please, once
7 again, point on the sketch. Is it named "ambulancija" or?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, right here.
9 MS. KORNER: I think it may help if we look at some of the
10 photographs which have already been exhibited as part of S15. It's 15-9.
11 And that may help. Yes, thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the path I was talking
13 about. Perhaps you can see it here. That's where the bus stopped. We
14 came right here, the women and children were sent to this big hall. And
15 we were then marched over to the clinic. And that building over there,
16 that's the school building.
17 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you.
18 Q. Now, at that stage, on your arrival, if you can remember, was
19 there anything to indicate that this was a camp, wire or fencing?
20 A. Not in the sense of any special fence being put up for the
21 purpose. There was a fence that had been there before. And I don't think
22 any of us even had the idea of a camp in mind. So we didn't even think
23 about such things.
24 Q. All right. When you arrived there and were getting out of the
25 bus, did you recognise any of the soldiers who were there?
1 A. The soldiers there, no, I think there was this young man who knew
2 me. He approached me. He knew me from the Prijedor airport. His father
3 worked at the airport, too, in some capacity. I can't remember. So he
4 started flying airplanes. But I can't remember knowing any of the
5 soldiers there. There was Rade Baltic, wearing plainclothes. He
6 recognised me, and he said: "Here's our doctor." But the other
7 soldier -- the other soldier said: "Here's our doctor," but he was
8 wearing a uniform.
9 Q. The man who approached you from the Prijedor airport, was that
10 Rade Baltic?
11 A. No. Rade Baltic was wearing plainclothes, civilian clothes, and
12 he was from Trnopolje.
13 Q. All right. Were you ever aware, at that first stage, of anybody
14 who was in command?
15 A. We didn't know really about the command structure. That was
16 already at some point in the afternoon, we were taken to that clinic, and
17 that's where we stayed.
18 Q. And finally this, on this first afternoon: The soldiers who were
19 there, were you able to understand from their uniforms who they were, what
21 A. I wasn't able to tell really. Probably persons who had been
22 mobilised as early as the war in Croatia. And now that the war broke out
23 here, in this area, too.
24 Q. Were there any police uniforms there that you noticed or was it
25 all military?
1 A. At least I didn't notice any police uniforms. The only uniforms I
2 saw were military uniforms.
3 Q. All right. Now, you were placed in the clinic. And did you
4 remain in the clinic until the following day?
5 A. We remained until the following day. It grew dark very soon. And
6 as night fell, a very loud horrible shooting began. We just threw
7 ourselves on the floor, and we didn't know what was happening. It was
8 only the next day that we found out they were just shooting bullets into
9 the air for fun.
10 Q. Now, at what stage was this area which was effectively Trnopolje,
11 at what stage did it become a camp?
12 A. After several days, we realised that we would not leave. At the
13 beginning, I thought to myself: "Well, I'm just a civilian. Maybe they
14 will just run a check on me and then release me, allow me to go home."
15 But we remained there. Men were no longer allowed to leave the camp
16 unless someone's name was included in a list to be transferred to a
17 different camp. After a while, they started to organise convoys for
18 women, children, and the elderly to transfer these people out of the
19 Serb-held territory.
20 Q. All right. I want to come on to the convoys and other aspects of
21 Trnopolje in a moment. Can we just look at the general layout. You've
22 shown us and we looked at the photograph of Trnopolje. At some stage, was
23 some kind of wire erected?
24 A. Yes, indeed. A wire fence was put up when Keraterm and Omarska
25 camps were disbanded. And then a wire fence was put up to contain
1 prisoners from Keraterm and Omarska. But it was only there for a short
2 while. And when journalists began arriving, they took it down.
3 Q. So the wire was only put up after the Omarska and Keraterm
4 prisoners were transferred there. Was that before or after the arrival of
5 the journalists or both?
6 A. The wire fence had been erected prior to the arrival of
7 journalists, and then taken down afterwards.
8 Q. I'm sorry, it's my fault. Bad question. The transfer of the
9 Omarska prisoners and Keraterm, did that happen before the arrival of the
10 journalists, then, or afterwards?
11 A. Some of them arrived before the arrival of Penny Marshall. That
12 first group included women and underaged people, and the severely ill,
13 sick people, from Omarska. And then the group from Keraterm arrived, and
14 then there was the visit of the journalists after which, sometime around
15 midnight, a large convoy arrived from Omarska.
16 Q. All right. Now, before that, and we know that that was August of
17 1992, what prevented people from leaving Trnopolje the camp? You said men
18 were no longer allowed to leave unless their name was on a list.
19 A. Guards were posted around Trnopolje, all around Trnopolje. There
20 were guard posts, and then there was this fence. One could easily jump
21 over that fence, however. But apart from the checkpoints and the guards,
22 even if only a simple line had been drawn on the ground, nobody would dare
23 cross that line.
24 Q. Okay. On the diagram that we've just looked at, I wonder if you
25 could have that back again, which is S321-2, can you indicate to us where
1 there were guard posts?
2 A. On this diagram, I marked with this sign the guard posts. They
3 were here, one of them was here on the south side, and then on the road
4 leading to Kozarac, there was another one here. Across the street from
5 the entrance to the clinic, there was another one. Opposite the school
6 near the petrol station. And then one more -- actually, on two more
7 locations, on either sides of the road on this road leading to Kozarac.
8 As for the other side, one was here on the left side when coming from
9 Prijedor. There was a house here, and then a checkpoint next to this
10 house with sand bags. There was a small terrace on this house with a
11 sniper, and then this house here there was another checkpoint, next to
12 this house which was used by them for rest and recuperation.
13 Q. Just for the purposes of the transcript, what you're indicating in
14 each case is the circle that you've shown with the markings inside. Is
15 that right?
16 A. Correct. Here, there is a circle. I could have used any other
17 marking, of course. But each of these circles marks a guard post and a
19 Q. Right.
20 A. There were other checkpoints located outside the camp, further
21 away. But those -- these are the ones that were right next to the camp.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, and once again for the transcript, where
23 did you identify snipers? Can you mention it.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, there was a sniper
25 on the upper floor of this house here.
1 MS. KORNER:
2 Q. And you're indicating to the left-hand side of the diagram you
3 drew in the square box, top left-hand corner. And you've written beside
4 it -- can you just read to us what you've written.
5 A. The square marks a house. And then the circle underneath --
6 Q. Yes, but to the right of that, this is simply so we can identify
7 it later on the plan, what have you written? There are some words
9 A. "Football pitch."
10 Q. Right. So that's one sniper post. You indicated another one.
11 A. I'm not aware of another one. I don't know whether there was any
12 other elsewhere. There was a machine-gun nest on this checkpoint here, I
13 believe. And then on this one here, and then one other there. Whether
14 there were any other snipers, I don't know.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just to be concrete, from the transcript, one
16 could read that you also mentioned a sniper at the bottom where you can
17 read "ograda prodavnice" somewhere in the middle at the bottom on the
18 road. You discussed -- no, further to the left-hand side.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, there.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And here.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was it correct there was also a sniper point?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. I know that we
24 noticed one here, on the upper floor of this house. But whether there was
25 one more here, down here, I couldn't tell you with any certainty.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification.
2 MS. KORNER:
3 Q. And can we just identify the places again where you say there were
4 machine-guns. I think you indicated to the guard post at the crossroads.
5 Is that correct, that we can see? There was a machine-gun there? And
6 that's --
7 A. I believe it was here, between these two houses. That is, at the
8 back of the house. And next to this house here, where the sniper was.
9 Q. All right. And the machine-guns, which way were they facing,
10 towards the camp or away from the camp?
11 A. Towards the camp.
12 Q. Thank you. All right. Thank you, yes, that's all we need on the
13 diagram for the moment.
14 Were you the first busload of people to be taken to Trnopolje?
15 A. No, we were not. When we arrived, we found there already a large
16 group of people, mostly women and children. And we learned that they had
17 been there for two days already, that is, since the beginning of the
18 attack on Kozarac. They were probably rounded up on the outskirts of
19 Kozarac, as the attack proceeded.
20 Q. Over the next few days, did other busloads of people arrive?
21 A. New busloads of people kept arriving all the time. The camp was
22 being filled up to its capacity.
23 Q. Were the families kept together, that is, men, women, and
24 children, or were they separated?
25 A. They were separated.
1 Q. And where were people put? Where did people live?
2 A. As far as Trnopolje is concerned, most of the people were put in
3 the school building. Most of the men were put in the school building.
4 Whereas women and children were put in the community centre, although at
5 the beginning they were mixed. However, later, they were separated. The
6 procedure took -- had already taken place in the villages that were
7 cleansed. It was there that women, children, and elderly were separated
8 from the military-age men. So mostly they were already separated on
9 arrival to Trnopolje. They didn't arrive together, that is to say. And
10 most of the men had probably already been taken to Omarska and Keraterm
12 Q. So were there military-aged men arriving at Trnopolje?
13 A. There were, but not in very large numbers.
14 Q. Now, you say that the men were placed in the school. And women
15 and children were put into the community centre. Did those two
16 buildings --
17 A. Correct. But once again, it was possible to find men in the
18 school, together with women, especially if there were already too many
19 people there prior to the arrival of their convoys. Then in those cases,
20 they would allow the men to be put into the school building as well.
21 Q. Into the building or the --
22 A. In which case, they were together with the men.
23 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. I think there may be possibly a mistranslation.
24 But you are saying if there were too many there, they would put men into
25 the school building as well. Do you mean women into the school building
1 as well? Because you said that men were in the school building.
2 A. No, no, no. Women. You're correct.
3 Q. All right. Did there ever come a time where those buildings were
4 too small to hold the numbers?
5 A. Of course, they eventually became too small. Initially, there was
6 no proper accommodation whatsoever. There were no beds, for example.
7 People slept on the floor wearing the same clothes that they were wearing
8 at the time of their arrival. There was no food either.
9 Q. I want to come on to food and sanitation in a moment. But when
10 the buildings were full up, what happened to the people who were brought
11 to the camp? Where did they stay?
12 A. When the buildings were filled to capacity where they could no
13 longer hold any more people, then the first convoy for women, children,
14 and the elderly was organised. And the convoy was organised from the
15 Trnopolje railway station in...
16 Q. Now, can we then move to --
17 A. In cargo carts, and that is how they managed.
18 Q. Can we move next, please, to the question of food. Did the Serb
19 guards provide food for the inmates?
20 A. No food was provided.
21 Q. How did people get food?
22 A. At the beginning, it was agreed that the local population who had
23 not still moved out could bring food into the camp. So many of the local
24 residents brought their food to the camp. This was obviously not enough,
25 but there was simply no other solution at the time. After a while, the
1 Serb Red Cross arrived, and we managed to reach an agreement with them
2 that a local resident who had a large number of cattle, of cows, should
3 bring milk to the camp for the children. We agreed that money should be
4 collected amongst the detainees, and then with the help of the local Serb
5 Red Cross, bread would be brought locally and then brought to the camp the
6 next day and distributed. I have to tell you that the situation was not
7 always the same at the camp. For a while, after that initial period of
8 time, after the local population had also been cleansed, as they called
9 it, and after the local residents stopped bringing in the food, we agreed
10 that the detainees escorted by the guards would be allowed to go into the
11 fields and forage for food there and that they could bring - I don't
12 know - potatoes, vegetables, from the surrounding fields into the camp.
13 And they also brought some stoves from the local houses into the camp, and
14 the food was -- they prepared food for themselves inside the camp.
15 For a brief period of time, the Serbs allowed for a large cauldron
16 to be placed in the camp where food was prepared. But this was not
17 enough, in view of the very large number of people who were detained in
18 the camp. So shortly after that, the cauldron was taken away.
19 Q. Eventually we know that the International Red Cross arrived at the
20 camp and registered people. But up until that time, was there sufficient
21 food to feed all the people who were being kept there?
22 A. Not enough. We at the clinic didn't receive any food at all, for
23 example. But sometimes local Serbs came to the clinic for examination as
24 well, people who used to be my patients, and they would bring food for me
25 and other personnel at the clinic.
1 Q. What about sanitation?
2 A. When we arrived in the camp, there was still some water there, but
3 it was yellowish and obviously not very clean. So we didn't use it.
4 Several days later, the camp ran out of water completely. People couldn't
5 wash, couldn't change their clothes. And -- but people somehow went on
6 living like that in those conditions.
7 Q. What about toilets? Were there any toilet facilities available?
8 A. There were toilets in the school building. However, they soon
9 became filled up and stopped. We didn't have any toilet at the clinic.
10 But we agreed that -- we organised septic pits to be dug out, septic tanks
11 to be dug out near the school building so that people could use those
12 actually simple holes as toilets.
13 Q. Now, when did you become aware that there was somebody who was in
14 charge of this camp?
15 A. At the beginning, there was a member of the military there. I
16 don't remember exactly what rank he held. I think that it was on the
17 second day of my stay there, on the 27th, because we had arrived on the
18 26th, a Ukrainian woman came to the clinic, Marica Olenjuk. She used to
19 work as a cleaning lady at the clinic. She brought some food, some boiled
20 eggs for us. And she told us that a lady neighbour of hers had come to
21 see her. She was very frightened. She said that soldiers had taken five
22 women up to -- to the upper floor of her house and that she was able to
23 hear screams and cries of those women. And she thought that the soldiers
24 were raping these women in her house.
25 I went out. I wanted to find someone to talk to. I asked for the
1 person who was in charge. There were two men sitting on a crate next to
2 the entrance to the clinic, in the yard in front of the clinic. And they
3 told me that one of them was in charge. So I told him the story I had
4 just heard. I thought that he was the man in charge of Trnopolje at the
5 time. However, after a while -- I mean, this person went away, and I
6 never saw him again. Slobodan Kuruzovic arrived. He was the man in
7 charge of Trnopolje throughout the existence of the camp.
8 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you about him in a moment. But can we just
9 complete this episode in relation to your complaining that some women had
10 been raped. Was anything done about that as far as you know?
11 A. Not to my knowledge. I don't know what happened afterwards,
12 whether anything was done afterwards except I had a minor problem myself.
13 Q. What happened to you as a result of your reporting this allegation
14 of rape?
15 A. The women were allowed to come to the clinic for examination, but
16 they would always be escorted by a guard since somehow we happened to have
17 a lot of boiled eggs that the people had brought us. And each time one
18 such woman would visit us at the clinic, I would give her one or two of
19 these boiled eggs so that they could take them to their children. And one
20 of the soldiers then made allegations against me to the effect that I was
21 preparing a mass killing of Serb children, and that the secret code of the
22 operation was boiled eggs.
23 He showed up with another soldier, and he said that I should go
24 with them. Apparently they were planning to liquidate me. When I came
25 out, I found Rade Baltic there and another person - I always forget his
1 name, the father of this soldier came to the clinic in Kozarac - and asked
2 me what was going on. And I said that the whole thing was a complete
3 nonsense, and I told him that I was being accused of preparing a mass
4 killing of Serb children. He said that I should go back to the clinic and
5 that he would take care of that. He later paid me a visit and told me
6 that he had taken care of that, and that I would have -- I would no longer
7 have any problems. As for the two soldiers, I never saw them again.
8 Q. All right. Can we now look at the question of rapes in Trnopolje.
9 You told us there were a number of women there. Did you become aware
10 apart from this incident of other apparent rapes?
11 A. In June in particular, there were quite a few rapes. Most of them
12 happened at night. Mostly the individuals involved were not the guards
13 but others who were not on guard duty, people from the outside. They
14 would visit the sleeping quarters of the women at night. They would flash
15 their torch lights at them, and they would take the women out, those whom
16 they liked. And this is what we could observe from the window of the
17 clinic. Some of the women later came to the clinic to ask for help. I
18 believe that the first women to come to the clinic talked to Gutic. And
19 then he came to see me. After we had had several such cases of women
20 coming to our clinic, I talked to Dr. Dusko Ivic, a Serb physician, who
21 sometimes came to the clinic together with Mico Kobas, who was a
23 Q. What did you tell Dr. Ivic?
24 A. I told him that there were many cases of rape and that some of the
25 women who had come to the clinic had agreed to be examined.
1 Q. What did you want Dr. Ivic to do?
2 A. So we talked about the possibility of Dr. Ivic taking them to the
3 gynaecological ward in Prijedor so that the allegations could be
4 established. And we hoped that this would put an end to the rapes.
5 Q. And did he agree that these women could go to Prijedor, to the
6 specialist ward?
7 A. He wasn't able to give me an answer right away, but I think that
8 it was on the following day that he came and told me that he would take
9 the women to Prijedor. So a number of women, I don't know exactly how
10 many, probably more than five but less than ten, were taken by him to
11 Prijedor to be examined. When I talked to him on a subsequent occasion,
12 the women had been brought back. I didn't see the findings, the results,
13 of the examination. But he told me that all of these women had indeed
14 been raped.
15 Q. Now, how difficult was it from your knowledge of the mentality and
16 the upbringing for Bosniak women to complain of rape?
17 A. Personally, I think that it was a very small number of women who
18 decided to come to the clinic and admit that they had been raped.
19 Q. Did you ever see Kuruzovic about the fact that, or attempt to see
20 Kuruzovic, about the fact that apparently people were being allowed in to
21 the camp to take women away?
22 A. I never spoke to Kuruzovic about this. Usually if we talked,
23 there was also a man called Slavko Puhalic. I think he was Kuruzovic's
24 deputy. He used to come to the clinic quite often, so we tried to use him
25 to send messages to Kuruzovic for something to be done. But I can't
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 remember having any conversation about this with anyone apart from
2 Dr. Dusko Ivic.
3 Q. And as a result of your conversations with either the doctor or
4 Mr. Puhalic, who you thought was the deputy, was anything done to stop
5 these people coming in?
6 A. After a while, these cases of women being raped abated in
7 intensity. There was a number of tank operators, military personnel, the
8 group referred to itself as "El Manijakos". That was the inscription they
9 had on their tanks apparently. I think Kuruzovic then passed the message
10 on and tried to keep these things from happening so often. One day, they
11 arrived with two tanks. They quarrelled with Kuruzovic and Puhalic asking
12 why they had allowed those women to be taken for examination. At any
13 rate, following that, I was not really familiar with any more substantial
14 number of rapes, but I do know that those same people then went around the
15 surrounding villages looking for women to rape.
16 Q. Now, did you become aware of a rape outside the camp?
17 A. Yes, I remember there was a woman with a child who came to the
18 camp. And she reported to the clinic. I was the person she talked to.
19 She could barely walk. At the checkpoint in Orlovci, she was stopped by
20 the guards. And then for ten consecutive days, she was raped by all of
21 them. One night, she managed to escape with her child through a window.
22 The next day, after she talked to me already, a lieutenant came. I think
23 his name was Cumba. He was an active military officer. I think he was an
24 MP, a military policeman, with another man, an inspector I think, who had
25 a crest of white hair on top of his head. They asked questions about this
1 particular woman, whether she had reported to us, the woman from Orlovci,
2 because they wanted her apparently to testify to the effect that she had
3 been raped. I decided not to tell them about her conversation with me,
4 and I advised this woman to leave the camp on the next convoy and to go
5 and see a physician once safe, once outside the Serb-held territory.
6 Q. The inspector that was there, did he say anything to you?
7 A. He wanted to have a word with me alone, so we went to the back
8 room of the clinic. He warned me that all those working against Serbs
9 would be killed. And he warned me to mind my actions.
10 Q. Now, before I move to the next topic, can I ask you this: What
11 sort of supplies were you given in the camp, medical supplies?
12 A. Excuse me. I remembered the name, Skrbic, the soldier who came to
13 the clinic in Kozarac. His name was Skrbic. I still can't remember his
14 first name. His father's name was Skrbic, too.
15 Q. Thank you, Doctor. I think you just proved that if you stop
16 thinking about something, you'll remember it.
17 All right. Medical supplies, please, at your clinic in Trnopolje.
18 Were you provided with any?
19 A. We did not get any supplies before the arrival of the
20 International Red Cross, only what we found upon our arrival there in the
21 clinic in Trnopolje, that's what we used. Sometimes we would have an
22 opportunity to join the guards in their rounds of the surrounding houses
23 and find some medicines there to take back to the clinic in the camp. The
24 only thing we ever got from Dr. Ivic was a flea powder, DDT.
25 Q. Were there any -- I'm sorry, let me rephrase it. Was there any
1 violence in the camp being carried on against the inmates?
2 A. At some point soon, one of the rooms in the clinic that was
3 supposed to be used as a lab but was not being used as a lab was used for
4 interrogations and beatings.
5 Q. First of all, who was being taken for interrogation?
6 A. Well, camp inmates. I'm not sure based on what criteria. Perhaps
7 they had lists. I'm not sure how they decided on who to take and who not.
8 Mainly men, though. I never saw them take a single woman for
10 Q. And how did you know that the room that was supposed to be a lab
11 was being used for beatings?
12 A. As I've just explained, this room is inside the clinic. It's part
13 of the clinic, so it's perhaps 5 or 6 metres away between the two windows,
14 the distance between the two windows. So you could hear the sounds of
15 beatings going on, people being hit, people moaning. You could hear Serbs
16 verbally abusing the people beaten because the distance was so small.
17 Secondly, some of the people they beat would afterward be taken to
18 the clinic for us to dress their wounds.
19 Q. Now, can you remember any particular - don't worry about
20 names - but any particular injuries suffered by people?
21 A. Normally, blunt-force trauma. They kicked those people, they hit
22 them with poles, wooden poles. There were injuries, wounds, cuts by
23 knives apparently. Ejub Hrnic suffered a cut like that, I'm not sure if
24 it was the left or the right leg. Near his knee, a bit lower, a nerve was
25 severed. So he couldn't move his foot. He always dragged his foot behind
1 him. He had other injuries, too. But this was one of them.
2 Q. Did you or someone else actually have a camera with you at
4 A. Azra Blazevic had a camera.
5 Q. And were you able to photograph any of the injuries that you saw?
6 A. We talked once when beatings became very frequent. We talked
7 about an opportunity to photograph the injuries of those people so that
8 someday we could prove what had happened. And we were very much in two
9 minds whether we should try to do that or not because we were in danger of
10 being caught doing it. We agreed that only very few of us, the people who
11 were working in the clinic, would know about it. And then we
12 decided -- we decided not to take photographs so that the people who had
13 been beaten would not say that someone was then taking their photographs.
14 So, for example, I suppose most people know about this now, but it may be
15 the case that someone who was there in the clinic could say: "No, they
16 didn't take any photographs at all," because they didn't know.
17 Q. Yes, just so we understand. I think I understand what you're
18 saying. In other words, if they were interrogated by guards, they
19 wouldn't be able to say that their injuries were being photographed.
20 A. Precisely. We wanted to reduce the risk to the minimum and wanted
21 to have as few people know about this as possible.
22 Q. Now, you said that it was happening once the beatings became very
23 frequent. Can you tell us when that -- what period that was roughly?
24 A. That was in June, July, until the arrival of journalists. That
25 was the toughest period.
1 Q. Were those -- did those beatings happen only during interrogation,
2 or were there beatings that took place outside of interrogations?
3 A. I'm not sure what they did over there, were those official
4 interrogations or were they just beating people. Most of the people I
5 know had been beaten would first be accused of owning a weapon or being a
6 member of the Green Berets or having hidden their money. But I'm not sure
7 why they picked particular people to be beaten as opposed to other people.
8 Q. Did any beatings take place outside the -- that room in the
9 clinic? In other words, in the open?
10 A. Yes, also outside.
11 Q. And who was doing the beating? Was it the guards or people who
12 came into the camp?
13 A. On one occasion, they went into a boiler room in the school
14 building, and they beat the people they found there. I don't think those
15 were the guards who were on guard duty at that point, but other people who
16 arrived there. On another occasion, we watched from our window when they
17 brought people from Keraterm, and then Zigic arrived. He had the Keraterm
18 people lined up. He said: "God help you heroes." And they answered:
19 "God help you, too." He called out -- he called one of the men to step
20 forward and told him: "Come out, come forward." And then he made him go
21 down on his knees, and he kicked him and beat him until the man fell.
22 Q. And Zigic, did you know him?
23 A. I didn't know him, and he did not come to Trnopolje, at least not
24 that I knew. That was the only time he came, with the Keraterm camp
1 Q. And who told you what his name was?
2 A. Someone from the clinic knew him. I was not born in Prijedor
3 myself, so I didn't know people's names there. But Azra and those other
4 people who were born in Prijedor knew them. And he was a taxi driver, so
5 people knew him.
6 Q. Did the guards make any attempt to stop Zigic or any of the other
7 people who were --
8 A. No, no. No one even tried.
9 Q. All right. Now, I think, and this may be the appropriate moment
10 to start looking at them, although I'm not sure --
11 MS. KORNER: I don't know what time Your Honour is intending to
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have ten minutes to go.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I can start on the photographs.
15 Q. You were able, as we will see, to provide to Penny Marshall I
16 think a film that had been taken during the time at Keraterm.
17 A. That's correct. Her first arrival I think it was in early August,
18 possibly the 4th of August, we managed to hand over the film.
19 Q. And I want you to look, please, at some of the photographs that
20 came off this film. But first of all, one that's a slightly separate one.
21 And that's the photograph --
22 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honour was given a huge -- another
23 bundle. I hope this one as well. There was one that was shown to the
24 witness. I think it's a new one. 01035318. Your Honour, it's separate.
25 It's not taken -- it's not from the roll of film. It's a separate number.
1 Q. Can you just identify that. I think you were shown it by the
3 A. This, to the left, is a shop that was outside the clinic, but it's
4 all in one building. And the part to the right is the clinic, the door,
5 and the phone lines. And what you can see behind in the back is the large
6 hall. And this photo was taken from the north side, from the school
7 building. And this was probably after the camp had been closed down
8 because the UN never came to the camp during the camp's operation.
9 Q. Can we see where the lab was, in this photograph, that was used
10 for the beatings?
11 A. No, not from this side.
12 Q. Not from this side, all right.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, unless there's an objection, may that be
14 marked Exhibit S321-3.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no objections. Admitted into
17 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
18 Q. Now, can we start looking at some of the photographs that you
19 provided or that were on the film. Could we have a look at the one that
20 was marked 01035329, which looks like that.
21 A. The upper half, you can see Mujo, a sanitary technician, a
22 paramedic who was with us, standing next to him is a patient who I think
23 spent a night or two at the clinic. Here you can see Hase Dzolagic. He's
24 a vet. This here, that's myself. And these were taken at the Kozarac
25 clinic. The way you can see Mujo lying here, that's how we slept in our
1 clothes on the floor.
2 Q. These were taken at the Kozarac clinic, what, during the shelling?
3 A. My apologies. This is Trnopolje, not Kozarac.
4 Q. Okay. All right.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that be then admitted as Exhibit
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can't see any objections. Admitted into
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. Then, could you have a look, please, at 01035330.
11 A. In the lower picture, you can see Azra Blazevic, the vet. And the
12 other picture, you can see Sefik Karabasic. And you can see how we had to
14 Q. Were any beds ever provided for you in the clinic?
15 A. No, no beds whatsoever. We had two beds for examinations of our
16 patients, but those had been there from before. And Babica the midwife
17 slept on one of them, and the other one was usually used by Mujo to sleep
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that then be marked 321-5.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No objections. Therefore, admitted into
22 MS. KORNER:
23 Q. Can we look, please, then at 01035331.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -6.
25 MS. KORNER: -6.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. In the upper photo, you can see Babica, the midwife, and in the
2 lower photograph you can see Vasif Gutic. And in the background, you can
3 see Goga, the Serb woman who stayed with us all the time, even during the
4 early stage of our stay in Trnopolje. At some point, they told her she
5 had to leave.
6 Q. Yes, thank you. That's 6.
7 And then the next one, please: 01035337.
8 A. This is Nedzad Jakupovic. We managed to take a photograph of him
9 once. He was brought back from that room which was used for the beatings.
10 I think they only brought him to the clinic because of the wound to his
11 eye. So we had an opportunity to take a photograph, and we did. As you
12 can see, this is not a frontal view because we didn't want the patient to
13 notice that he was being photographed.
14 Q. Right. Now --
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections? -7.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. -7. There were no objections.
18 MS. KORNER:
19 Q. I just want to ask a couple of questions about that, this man.
20 The laceration to the eye, we can see that you dressed. And the injuries
21 to his body. Do you remember whether there were any other injuries which
22 we can't see in the photograph? To his wrists, for example.
23 A. It's difficult to diagnose. There was a fracture. Yes. That's
24 right. He had wire marks cut into the skin of his arms. And then he told
25 us that his arms had been tied with wire during the beating.
1 Q. Did he tell you whether there was anyone else, any other prisoner
2 with him in the interrogation room?
3 A. There were two other inmates with him, I think. One was killed as
4 a result of the beating. And I don't know anything about the other.
5 Q. All right. Yes. Thank you. And I'm sorry, the other photograph,
6 which I should have put in first, is 01035336.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -8.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is also a photo of Nedzad
9 Jakupovic, only taken from a different angle. Perhaps it's a pity that we
10 didn't get a frontal view. His face was bleeding and bruised. But we
11 just couldn't take a photograph of the front side of his body.
12 MS. KORNER: Yes.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's appropriate to have the break now.
14 The trial stays adjourned until 2.30.
15 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.59 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 2.42 p.m.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. And first of all, our
18 apologies for being late. But unexpected, we had to contact a visitor, a
19 diplomat, from Bosnia-Herzegovina. And as it was for the purpose of this
20 case, we gave priority to this. Once again, our apologies. And please,
22 MS. KORNER: Yes. If we can just complete the series of
23 photographs, please, Doctor. Could you now be shown the one numbered
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -9.
1 MS. KORNER: -9, yes, thank you very much.
2 Q. Can you just tell us what that shows us, Doctor.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please be asked to speak into
4 the microphone.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The microphone is not on at all. Thank you.
6 A. On this picture, we see the Trnopolje camp. The photograph was
7 taken from the direction of the clinic yard facing south, that is. And
8 the shop which used to sell construction material which was operative
9 before the war over there.
10 MS. KORNER:
11 Q. Can you give us a rough idea of when that was taken, if you can
13 A. This picture was taken before the visit of the journalists, so it
14 must have been sometime in June or July, I think.
15 Q. All right. Then -- thank you. If you can be given the next
16 photograph in sequence, 339, which is the same area.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -10.
18 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was taken from the same
20 direction, that is, from the building where the clinic was, facing the
21 community centre, facing south. And again, the construction material
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. All right. Thank you, Doctor. There are two more effectively of
25 that -- well, there's one more of that, which I don't think I'm going to
1 trouble to put in. But could you be shown 01035341, please.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -11.
3 MS. KORNER: -11. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. That's taken, I think, from a slightly different angle.
5 A. Yes indeed. This was taken, compared to the other photographs,
6 more to the right. On the left side, we see a portion of the house which
7 used to be a construction material shop. So this is more to the right
8 with respect to this house, compared to the previous photograph.
9 Q. Now, can we just ask you this: It's quite difficult to tell. Can
10 we see some sort of wire there, or is that just a trick of the printing or
11 the negative?
12 A. There is a wire from the construction material shop, the wire that
13 used to be there in place before. But one cannot see it on this
14 photograph, however.
15 Q. All right. I'm sorry. There's a line going across what looks
16 like the top of the pole, but that's --
17 A. No, no, no. That's not the wire.
18 Q. Fine. Thank you.
19 And then could you look, please, at 01035342.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -12.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This depicts one of the truck
22 convoys which was organised in Trnopolje. Since these are the trucks, I
23 think this was taken some time in late July because the first convoys were
24 organised in cattle cars. And it was only later that they were organised
25 with trucks. This was taken from the clinic yard, from the area outside
1 the clinic facing east, and the street.
2 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Then -- have we got a number? Then
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -12.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This again is one of the convoys.
6 Probably the last truck of the convoy, and you can see the detainees
7 boarding the truck. This was taken from the same angle. This is the
8 yard, the area outside the clinic.
9 I think you can see a soldier here standing guard with a rifle.
10 And then a second one who had a uniform on.
11 MS. KORNER: All right. Thank you.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have to correct myself. This is -13.
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a man from the village of
16 Hrnici, I believe, the area of Trnopolje. He was also in the room where
17 the beatings usually took place. He lost considerable weight. He was
18 once taken to the clinic for us to examine him, and that is when we
19 managed to take this photograph. He died later.
20 MS. KORNER:
21 Q. Died where, in Trnopolje?
22 A. Yes, in Trnopolje.
23 Q. When he died, were you asked to examine the body?
24 A. No, not when he died. He was taken in a horse-drawn cart, I
25 believe. He was taken away. And one of the detainees had to bury him.
1 Q. Was he one of the prisoners who had come from either Omarska or
2 Keraterm, or was he in Trnopolje throughout?
3 A. He had been in Trnopolje throughout that period of time. He was
4 not one of -- from this group from either Keraterm or Omarska.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you. And finally, of this group --
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not to forget, this would be -14. But in order
7 to come back to this question, if I may, did you see this person earlier
8 in a better state of health, and what is your diagnosis the fact that this
9 person has lost the weight? Was it caused by the fact that this person
10 was in Trnopolje?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sure that this was the result
12 of his stay in Trnopolje. He suffered from dysentery. He must have been
13 tortured, and he probably lost a lot of weight as a result of that. And
14 that was the cause of his death.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please proceed.
16 MS. KORNER:
17 Q. And then the final, 01035345. Is that the same man?
18 A. Yes, this is the same man. Here you can see the lower part of his
19 body. As you can see, here again, we took photograph from the backside.
20 MS. KORNER: That's 15, I think, Your Honour. 14.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No, it's -15 already. And may I ask, because I
22 didn't in the past, any objections against the admission into evidence of
23 the pictures shown until now which is 321-15?
24 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then admitted into evidence.
1 MS. KORNER:
2 Q. And then can I ask you to look at two other photographs, please,
3 which are contained in the bundle Exhibit S15. The first is S15-14.
4 A. I believe that this photograph was also taken in Trnopolje,
5 although not by us. It depicts one of the detainees who had arrived
6 either from Keraterm or Omarska. At any rate, he was not detained in
8 Q. And can we look, then, at the next photograph, S15-15.
9 A. This was also taken in Trnopolje, but not by us. It was after the
10 visit of the journalists. It depicts one of the men who had arrived from
11 either Omarska or Keraterm.
12 Q. And then could I ask you to look at --
13 MS. KORNER: I gather, Your Honour, this one hasn't yet been given
14 an Exhibit Number. Is bears the number 00452507 in the same bundle. It
15 should be very close. If the bundle is organised the same as ours, it
16 follows 2537.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, because I don't have this photograph
18 before me, it's in the bundle S15?
19 MS. KORNER: It is.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we have the next number, please.
21 THE REGISTRAR: S15-41.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: S15-41. Objections? I can't see any. Admitted
23 into evidence.
24 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
25 Q. Do you recognise that scene, Doctor?
1 A. I cannot find my bearings here on this photograph. I really
2 cannot tell you what it is exactly. It must have been taken in Trnopolje
3 camp, but I cannot tell you for sure. I don't have any reference point in
4 the background. But I assume that it was taken in Trnopolje after the
5 arrival of the men from Omarska and Keraterm. But again, I'm not a
6 hundred per cent sure.
7 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, technically the witness not having
8 recognised, I'm not sure we can call evidence, perhaps we can deal with it
9 by admission from the Defence that it is one of the series that was taken
10 from Trnopolje.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Observations by the Defence.
12 MR. LUKIC: Well, certainly we cannot confirm nor deny. But if
13 the witness didn't recognise it, then we think that it shouldn't be
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour --
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you withdraw. I think there is no
17 additional probative value.
18 MS. KORNER: No.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
20 MS. KORNER: All right.
21 Q. Finally, on diagrams and photographs, Doctor, I think you also
22 produced a diagram of some of the buildings in Trnopolje for the
23 investigator with the number 01035316.
24 A. On this diagram, we can see the clinic together with the adjacent
25 building in Trnopolje. In front of the building here, on the right-hand
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 side, there was a shop on the ground floor which had a separate entrance.
2 There was also a small shed, a small warehouse belonging to the shop.
3 This was the entrance to the clinic. There was a corridor here on the
4 right-hand side. And on the left side where I'm showing, was the room
5 where the laboratory used to be. This is where they used to beat people.
6 These are the three rooms which were used as examination rooms in the
7 clinic. This was also a small shed. And here are the premises of the
8 local commune which consisted of two rooms, one on the left side and one
9 on the right-hand side.
10 Here, there was a cafe on the ground floor. And on the upper
11 floor, there were the premises of the football club. There was an
12 entrance to the cafe, and there was a stairway leading up to the football
13 club. There was a community hall belonging to the community centre
14 behind. The entrance was on the left-hand side over there.
15 Q. And --
16 A. The area here is the yard outside the clinic.
17 Q. Which was the room in which the beatings took place?
18 A. This one, this one here. It was to the left with respect to the
20 Q. Now, I forgot when I was dealing with the photographs that you
21 took, or rather -- because I didn't have it there to ask you to look at
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. Once again, to interrupt you, but maybe
24 it was my misunderstanding. I understood that the three rooms to the
25 right-hand side where you can read "exam" on the first room, the rooms
1 marked 1, 2, and 3, that they were used for examination and beatings. Now
2 I understood it would be the room marked with capital A. Could you please
3 clarify this.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's wrong. The room A,
5 marked with A, that was the room used for the beatings. And rooms 1, 2,
6 and 3 were rooms in which we examined the patients and in which we stayed.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification.
8 MS. KORNER:
9 Q. Yes. Could you look, please, at the next photograph, I think
10 which I've already asked, which is 334.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, not too fast. May we first give this
12 sketch --
13 MS. KORNER: Sorry.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- The number 322. Objections?
15 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as S322.
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. Now, could you have a look, please, at this photograph and tell us
19 first of all what we're looking at.
20 A. This is just the room, the room marked as Room A. We managed once
21 to photograph this room immediately after one of the beatings. This is
22 the inside of that room.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can that be marked -- whatever the
24 number was.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 16. S321, in the line of the photographs,
1 S321-16, with the ERN number ending with 334.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, forgive us, we got up to 9 on that
3 series of photographs.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Under S321, we continued until 15. 14 and 15
5 depicted --
6 MS. KORNER: Sorry. Your Honour is right. We're wrong.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then 16. Yes.
8 MS. KORNER: Could the witness now be shown the number 5335.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the same room from a
10 different angle. You can see bloodstains on the wall and on the floor.
11 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -17.
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Yes, thank you. I think that
14 is all the photographs now.
15 Q. Now, Doctor, did people die as a result of the beatings? You've
16 already talked about that man who died, although you said it was more
17 through dysentery. What about anybody else?
18 A. Teofik Talic, another man who was killed in that room. He died
19 as a result of the beating.
20 Q. Were there any other deaths that happened in Trnopolje caused not
21 as a result of natural causes, but by some kind of outside agency?
22 A. Yes, there were other cases, too. There was a man suffering from
23 epileptic fits. We didn't have the proper medicines to treat him. He had
24 a fit once, and the only thing we had were tranquilisers. I asked Ivic to
25 have the right medicine brought there or to take the man to the Prijedor
1 hospital. Ivic failed to do that, and as a result the man died the next
2 morning. There was another case where a woman was killed by a firearm
3 outside the school building. There were a number of cases in which camp
4 inmates would be taken outside the camp, as opposed to inside the camp,
5 and killed there. Those were the most frequent cases, inmates being
6 killed outside the camp.
7 Q. Can you recall the names of any particular people who were killed
8 in that way, i.e., taken outside the camp?
9 A. One day, they had the inmates lined up outside the school
10 building. They had lists. They looked at those lists. They were looking
11 for the last name Foric. I think they singled out about five or six
12 people with that last name and took them towards Ribnjak. I heard later
13 they were killed there on the same day. Murgic, father and son, their
14 last name was Murgic, they were killed. They were Croats. They were
15 tortured. And also, somewhere towards Ribnjak and Mlin, across the
16 railroad track they were killed there. Murgic's wife was a Serb. She had
17 come to the camp looking for her husband and child. She came to the
18 clinic and spoke to us, but we were not allowed to tell her that they had
19 been killed. We didn't dare. We were afraid that she would later go to
20 someone else and tell them that she had found out from us about their
21 death. And then questions would be asked about how we had learned.
22 Pero Curguz, the head of the Serbian Red Cross, would select
23 inmates from the camp to perform burials of dead bodies. We heard about a
24 number of such cases. The first next village on the way to Prijedor,
25 Elezi, bodies were being collected there. 20 persons were killed there,
1 both men and women, and they were buried near the camp.
2 Q. I want to ask you about a topic that you touched on earlier, and
3 that's the question of convoys, and we looked at a couple of photographs.
4 You said that as the camp got fuller, convoys of people would be taken
5 out. How often would these convoys go during the period that you were in
7 A. I don't know the exact number. They cleansed village by village.
8 In the following manner, a unit would enter a village, round up the men,
9 separate them from the women and children, and then women and children
10 would be taken to Trnopolje, as a rule, as far as I know. And as for the
11 men, they had special lists on the basis of which they decided to send
12 them to Omarska or to Keraterm. And then later, they would perhaps be
13 taken to Trnopolje. And once the camp there was filled to capacity, there
14 would be convoys for women and children to be transferred in order to make
15 room inside the camp for those cleansed from the next village. And this
16 procedure would be repeated over and over again. And every time the camp
17 was filled up with Muslim men. So gradually the number of Muslim men
18 inside the camp increased because men were not allowed to leave the camp.
19 An exception could be made here and there if among the women, there was
20 anyone who had good Serb friends, they could try to contact them and try
21 to persuade them to allow their men to join one of the convoys.
22 Q. Now, you say "men weren't allowed to leave the camp." Were they
23 kept in closer confinement than the women and children?
24 A. I don't think you could call it "closer confinement." They were
25 all in the same compound except that the school building was always
1 reserved for men. But that could change if there was a need to allow
2 women into the school building to let them stay there.
3 Q. Now, you've told us that they cleansed village by village and
4 described how that happened. Is that what you learned from the people who
5 came to the camp?
6 A. Yes, we learned this from those people who had been picked up.
7 They would come and they would always tell us the same story.
8 Q. From that, the fact that you were being told the same story over
9 and over again, what conclusion did you come as to what was happening
11 A. I'm certain that this was planned at the top level and that orders
12 came from up high. I don't think that an ordinary military officer could
13 cleanse the whole area in a matter of two or three months and kill as many
14 people as they did. As I said, once they entered the village, they have
15 lists of persons to be killed. I have no idea why they did, but they
16 always had lists with precise instructions as to how to deal with a
17 certain individual. So this also confirms that the whole thing must have
18 been carefully planned.
19 Q. Did there seem to be any difference in the treatment of villages
20 where there had been some kind of resistance from the non-Serbs and those
21 where there had not, in the description of what had happened?
22 A. There was no difference whatsoever. As I've told you, when they
23 collected bodies from Elezi, near Trnopolje, it was no earlier than July.
24 And Serbs were there, too. And the same thing happened to them as
25 happened perhaps in other places to people who tried to put up some sort
1 of resistance. No matter whether there was any armed resistance or not,
2 it always ended the same way.
3 Q. You told us that a lot of the time you spoke to the gentleman who
4 appeared to be Kuruzovic's deputy. But did you from time to time speak to
6 A. On several occasions, yes, I did. But I can't remember any
7 details now. I can't tell you.
8 Q. Don't worry about the details, but when you were speaking to him,
9 did you ever have any reference made by him to, as it were, other
11 A. Concerning the organising of convoys and certain decisions, but
12 most often we would hear this sort of thing from Slavko Puhalic, the fact
13 that they had to wait for approval first and for decisions at a higher
14 level so that those decisions could then be implemented. So we heard from
15 Slavko Puhalic, I think, that there was supposed to be a session of some
16 body, the session was supposed to decide whether 3 per cent of the Muslim
17 population would be allowed to stay, to remain in the Prijedor area. This
18 clearly indicates that decisions were being made elsewhere, and it didn't
19 really appear to me that Major Kuruzovic was the one making decisions
20 concerning the fate of those people there. Even the arrival of
21 journalists only took place as far as I know after Karadzic had granted
22 his approval.
23 Q. I want to ask you about one particular convoy about which you
24 later heard that the people had been killed. Did you see the loading of
25 the people that eventually you heard were killed on Mount Vlasic?
1 A. That was, I think, the last convoy to leave Trnopolje. And that
2 was when the International Red Cross had already announced their arrival.
3 I think, in fact, that the representatives of the International Red Cross
4 had already arrived in Trnopolje, but the camp inmates had not been
5 registered yet. So over the next two days, this convoy was organised
6 which could be joined freely by men, whoever could fit on to the lorries
7 and buses. Up to that point, it was only on rare occasions that any of
8 the men managed to smuggle themselves out. But this time, they could
10 Q. Now, when the men were being put on to that convoy, did you see
11 them being put there?
12 A. Yes. They would always put people on convoys either on the
13 Prijedor/Trnopolje/Kozarac Road or further down the road, the
14 Trnopolje/Prijedor -- the lower road.
15 Q. We've looked earlier at the two photographs, one of the lorries,
16 as it were, and one of the people being loaded on. Are you able to say
17 whether that photograph was a photograph of the, if I can call it that,
18 the Mount Vlasic convoy, or another? Or if you're not sure, say so.
19 A. I think that's another convoy, a different one. That's not the
20 convoy for Mount Vlasic.
21 Q. All right. Do you remember whether or not Major Kuruzovic was
22 there when this man -- I'm sorry, when the men were being put on to the
24 A. Major Kuruzovic was there with brothers Balaban. They were twins.
25 And I think, as far as I know, they were his bodyguards. The fact that
1 younger people, younger men, were taken off the convoy and killed on Mount
2 Vlasic, we learned this through the radio. When Penny Marshall came, the
3 second time she came, she gave us as a present a radio set which was tuned
4 in to the frequency of the Sarajevo radio. And we heard that on the
5 radio. The interesting thing is that the following day, they wanted to
6 organise another convoy. But people refused to join it once they had
7 heard the news that those people had been killed.
8 Q. Now, just to jump ahead for a moment, and then I'm going to deal
9 with Penny Marshall's visit. I think you left Trnopolje on the 30th of
10 September, one of the last people to leave. Is that correct?
11 A. That's correct, the last day of September. We turned up in
12 Karlovac the following day. I think it was the 1st of October.
13 Q. When you got on to the bus to take you out of Trnopolje, did you
14 see anybody from that convoy, the one that had gone over Mount Vlasic?
15 A. It was only in the bus that I learned that the International Red
16 Cross in some way, I don't know how, had managed to get five people out of
17 Banja Luka, evacuate them, people who had survived the Vlasic massacre.
18 They spirited them into Trnopolje and loaded them on to one of the buses.
19 I talked to those people. And what they told me roughly was that they
20 were being -- that soldiers were entering the buses and lorries requiring
21 that the younger men inside the buses should get off so that more space
22 would be left inside for the women and children. And when the --
23 Q. Sorry, forgive me, I'm going to stop you. The Court has heard
24 evidence from the people who survived or from some of them. So we needn't
25 to go through what you were told. But all I wanted to check was you saw
1 those people when you got on to the bus?
2 A. Yes, they were on the last bus with me.
3 Q. All right. Now, just before we deal with the visit by Penny
4 Marshall and the other journalists, can I ask you this: In summary form,
5 the day that the journalists or the day before the journalists arrived,
6 what were the conditions in the camp like?
7 A. You mean the day before, or generally speaking?
8 Q. Generally speaking, and then I'll ask you what they did the
9 day -- I'm sorry, it's my fault again. Generally speaking, what were the
10 conditions in the camp like? How would you sum them up in the period
11 immediately before the journalists came?
12 A. I've tried to divide the period inside the camp into three
13 different periods of time. The most difficult period for us was before
14 the arrival of the journalists. And then the period between the visit of
15 the journalists and then the arrival of the International Red Cross. And
16 then the third period between the arrival of the International Red Cross
17 and the closing of the camp. The first period, I think, was the most
18 difficult one because anyone would be allowed into the camp, take away any
19 of the prisoners inside the camp, beat them. There was no safety. There
20 was no food. So generally speaking, that period was the most difficult
22 Q. Now, when you -- before the journalists arrived, were any
23 preparations made by the camp authorities?
24 A. Azra also learned from one of the guards that journalists would
25 perhaps arrive for a visit, which means that the guards knew already. So
1 preparations were carried out. A wire fence was put up between the
2 construction material shop and the dom building where the inmates from
3 Keraterm were later accommodated. And then the one outside the shop is
4 where they later put inmates from Omarska.
5 We were put in a special place -- they were put in a special
6 place, and Major Kuruzovic told us that those were really dangerous people
7 and that we should keep away from them. Whenever one of those persons
8 tried to go to the clinic, they would always have the person marched over
9 to the clinic by one of the guards. That was before they took the wire
10 fence down.
11 Later, when various delegations began to arrive and visit the camp
12 and further journalists, they took the wire fencing down. And they
13 allowed people to move about in the camp and across the way from the camp.
14 You could -- people were allowed to put up small tents there, those who
15 had no room inside the school building or inside the dom building. So the
16 situation improved in that period, after the visit of the journalists.
17 Q. But before the visit of the journalists, you say Azra learned
18 about them, were any special preparations made by the camp authorities?
19 What, for example, happened to the women and children?
20 A. A convoy was organised for them. So when the journalists arrived,
21 there were extremely few women and children left. The women who had been
22 brought in from Omarska before the journalists arrived, those were also
23 taken to Prijedor at that point. So when the journalists arrived, the
24 women who had been brought into this camp from Omarska were no longer
25 there. That was the convoy of women that left at that point, and they
1 allowed some of the sick and wounded to join that convoy, too.
2 Q. We're going to have a look at a brief excerpt from the film that
3 was shot by ITN on that visit. Then, on the return visit by Penny
4 Marshall after it had been shown on television. And I think subsequently,
5 you also gave, I think, an interview to an American news programme, ABC
6 Nightline. Is that correct?
7 MS. KORNER: Translation?
8 A. That's correct.
9 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
10 Your Honour, what we've done, and I'm going to ask the film be
11 played now, we've extracted from the various things the excerpts which are
12 relevant. At some point, we've had to -- you'll see particularly with the
13 American programme, we have to take out other people who were speaking.
14 It has been disclosed to the Defence.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The video as such would then be S --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. The video as such would be then S323.
19 MS. KORNER: And there's a transcript that we have had done. Some
20 of it is not very easy to follow. One in English and one in B/C/S.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -1A and -1B.
22 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
23 Q. Doctor, I know you've had a look at it before, but if there's any
24 comment that you want to make, perhaps you just lean into the microphone
25 and say stop, and then the technicians will stop playing it and you can
1 make your comment.
2 MS. KORNER: Otherwise, I would ask that the video now be played.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. May I ask whether the public gallery
4 also a screen is available that we have public access? Because we have a
5 visitor in the public gallery.
6 MS. KORNER: I didn't know that. Your Honour, I don't know. I
7 think it's only about a two-chair public gallery from what I remember.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No.
9 Do you agree that we proceed? Thank you. The visitor in the
10 public gallery waived his right to see this video. Thank you.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MS. KORNER: Pause for one moment. I'm sorry, can we just roll it
13 back because I want to ask a question. I'm sorry, can you just play -- I
14 want to ask about one of the people in the video.
15 Pause, please. Thank you.
16 Q. First of all, Doctor, I should have asked, what are we looking at
18 A. Here we see the patients standing around the person wearing the
19 white coat. This is Mico Kobas, a Serb, the man who is missing one arm.
20 Here, he had arrived with the journalists. Mico Kobas was a paramedic.
21 This picture was taken in the waiting hall at the Trnopolje clinic.
22 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much. Carry on.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MS. KORNER: Pause there. Thank you.
25 Q. Doctor, what was the problem here, if there was a problem?
1 A. The problem here was the fact that Mico Kobas was with them as
2 part of the escort. So we were not allowed to say anything. We didn't
3 want him to hear certain things. I was trying to hide behind the
4 cameraman so that Mico would not see me. I motioned to Penny Marshall to
5 indicate that she should try and move him away so that we can continue the
6 conversation without his presence.
7 Q. Yes.
8 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Continue, please.
9 [Videotape played]
10 MS. KORNER: Could we stop.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the second visit of Penny
12 Marshall. Here you can see clearly that the fence had been completely
13 taken off. That's all what I wanted to say. She is coming, as we can
14 see, from the direction of Prijedor.
15 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you. If we can continue playing the
17 [Videotape played]
18 MS. KORNER: Pause for a moment, again.
19 Q. First of all, Doctor, who is the man we can see behind you?
20 A. That's Vasif Gutic, who at the time was a student at the school of
22 Q. And on this second visit when Penny Marshall came back and showed
23 you the English newspapers, was there anybody present from the Serbs, or
24 were you on your own?
25 A. No, there were no Serbs present.
1 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you. Your Honour, then the next clip
2 that we're going to see comes from the American programme, the ABC news.
3 Yes, if we could carry on.
4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "It helped us a lot since
5 immediately after that, the situation improved. They brought down the
6 wire. They started bringing a little food."
7 MS. KORNER: Please stop.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said at one point in time that
9 Muslims could use the train. I was referring to the visits because there
10 were still people in Prijedor who had not been rounded up or detained who
11 had families in Trnopolje. They were not allowed to come to Trnopolje to
12 board the train there, to visit their family there before that. But later
13 on, they were allowed to do that. I was referring to the visitors, not to
14 the detainees.
15 MS. KORNER: All right. Thank you.
16 Yes. The video can continue.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MS. KORNER: Pause, please.
19 Q. And the woman who is talking now?
20 A. The woman talking is Azra Blazevic, the veterinarian.
21 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Yes, if we can continue, please.
22 [Videotape played]
23 "Narrator: You can see that threat mirrored on the face of
24 Dr. Idriz, who ran the Trnopolje clinic.
25 "Journalist: Have you had any cases here of people who had bean
1 beaten in the other camp?
2 "The Witness: [Interpretation] They just saw me shrug. I just
3 shrugged and said nothing. Of course, one was not allowed to speak. You
4 always had a guide.
5 "Narrator: Today, Dr. Idriz is safe in the refugee camp at
6 Karlovac. Today, he can tell the truth about Trnopolje.
7 "The Witness: [Interpretation] In the camp, some people died from
8 beatings. Others died because we weren't allowed to take them to
9 hospital. There were a lot of people taken out of the camp and killed.
10 "Narrator: In all, Dr. Idriz says, about 200 men were killed at
11 Trnopolje, and beatings, he says, were constant. Nedzad's battered body
12 was photographed this summer by Dr. Idriz.
13 "The Witness: [Interpretation] We didn't actually see the
14 beatings. But we were in the room next to where they were taking place.
15 We could hear the beating, and the crying.
16 "Narrator: Dr. Idriz says the Trnopolje camp military commander
17 once tried to discipline a rapist.
18 "The Witness: [Interpretation] When the rest of the soldiers found
19 out about that, they got drunk and drove two tanks in front of the main
20 military barracks and gave an ultimatum that the soldier had to be
21 released or else they would shoot at their own barracks. So they released
22 the soldier.
23 "As soon as the people came, they were just pushed into the camp.
24 They were left to organise themselves."
25 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you. That's the end of the excerpts.
1 Q. Doctor, just one question on what we heard you say. The incident
2 you described on tape about the tanks being driven in front of the office
3 of the commander and demanding the release of the barracks, was that the
4 same incident you were -- demanding the release of one of their comrades,
5 was that the incident you earlier described to us with the tank regiment?
6 A. Yes, that is the event in question. They had arrived in Trnopolje
7 in order to discuss why the women had been taken out to undergo an
8 examination at all. Later we heard stories, I don't know whether they
9 were correct or not, that one of their soldiers was detained because of
10 that in the Prijedor barracks. And that the rest of the group went to the
11 barracks in two tanks and released this colleague of theirs.
12 Q. All right.
13 Now, finally can we deal with very briefly with matters after the
14 visits of the journalists. The International Red Cross, I think, came in
15 around the 15th of August. Is that right?
16 A. Yes, in mid-August, thereabouts.
17 Q. After that, did they register the people in the camp?
18 A. Not on the first day. A couple of days later, people who happened
19 to be in the camp were registered. Each of them received a registration
20 booklet, an ID of sorts, with a registration number.
21 Q. And did the food and medical supplies improve after they arrived?
22 A. The International Red Cross organised a complete delivery of food
23 on a daily basis, and we also received all the medicine that we needed.
24 The supplies came directly to me, I mean, they would first come to see me,
25 and then I would tell them what kind of medicine we needed, and that would
1 subsequently be brought in.
2 Q. And eventually, was the camp closed down as far as you were aware
3 on the 30th of September when you left?
4 A. The camp was officially closed down, although there remained a few
5 people, including women and children, who were not registered, people who
6 had arrived in the camp later on with the hope of being registered which
7 would in turn enable them to leave.
8 Q. Before being allowed on to the bus, were you made to sign any kind
9 of papers?
10 A. No one could leave the camp without previously signing a
11 certificate to the effect that they were thereby abandoning all their
12 property to Serbs. We all received a copy of this paper. I had one, too,
13 but unfortunately I tore it.
14 Q. What happened to the property that you owned in Prijedor?
15 A. My property and the property of the majority of Muslims was
16 destroyed. According to what I know about what happened usually, after
17 the cleansing, Serbs would take with them whatever they needed, whatever
18 they wanted to take. It did depend on the village and the town. But, for
19 example, I started to build a house in the old town of Prijedor, the old
20 neighbourhood of Prijedor, where most of the Muslims lived. This area was
21 completely razed to the ground. You cannot even find any foundations
22 there. All mosques and Croatian churches were blown up.
23 Q. During your time at Trnopolje, were you ever beaten yourself?
24 A. No, I was not.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The witness also stated that what happened in
1 the old town of Prijedor had nothing to do with the war.
2 MS. KORNER: Right.
3 Q. You say: "What happened in the town of Prijedor had nothing to do
4 with the war." What do you mean by that?
5 A. I mean that the destruction, the arson, the burning down of the
6 houses, mosques, and Croatian churches occurred after the cleansing. The
7 damage which is the result of the shelling is a completely different
8 thing. You can argue that it was not intentional. But this, on the other
9 hand, was done intentionally and according to a plan.
10 My opinion is that the idea behind this kind of destruction was to
11 prevent people from coming back because whoever had a house left standing
12 would perhaps wish to come back. But if everything is destroyed, that
13 certainly prevents people from coming back.
14 Q. Have you ever been back since 1992, Doctor?
15 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the witness.
16 MS. KORNER:
17 Q. Sorry, Doctor, you'll have to speak up again. Your reply was --
18 A. No, I haven't. Since 1992, I haven't been back to Prijedor.
19 Q. Did you receive any kind of death threats before you left
21 A. Just before the camp was closed down, a day or two before the very
22 end of the camp, I was approached by Mladen Mitrovic who told me that he
23 had been given an order to kill me and that I should not be allowed to
24 leave the camp alive. Later in the conversation, he told me that he was
25 not going to do it, that he wouldn't do it. I don't know whether he was
1 serious or whether he was only trying to scare me.
2 Q. Did he tell you who had given him the order?
3 A. No, he didn't tell me whose order it was.
4 Q. Doctor, I'm very grateful to you. Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before I come to the ongoing -- the question how
6 to proceed, may I respectfully ask the representative of the OTP whether
7 or not it was on purpose or whether I missed this issue in the statement
8 of the witness given in the August 2000 on page 14, paragraph 2 as regards
9 a Muslim family named Foric.
10 MS. KORNER: He gave the evidence, Your Honour. He said they were
11 taken out, the Forics.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But we did not include, and therefore I want to
13 come back to this, the sketch with the ER number 01035315.
14 MS. KORNER: That's right, Your Honour. That was deliberate. But
15 if Your Honour wants, certainly we can come back to it.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It would be helpful for a better understanding
17 if we could just come back to this question and go into some details and
18 base the explanation for a better understanding on this sketch which would
19 be S3 -- Exhibit Number S324.
20 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, I just want to make sure I get the
21 right diagram.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 315.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to explain how they
25 took Forics out?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MS. KORNER:
2 Q. Yes, please. If you would be so kind, Doctor.
3 A. This is the clinic. The corridor is on this side of the building.
4 There were windows on the corridor. This is the school building and the
5 main entrance to the school. The detainees from the school building were
6 lined up outside the school in several rows. Then names were called out.
7 They said that those bearing the family name of Foric should come up.
8 Five or six people came out, and the others were let go. The Forics were
9 then taken along this road southward, towards the railway station.
10 If my memory serves me right, they were taken in the direction of
11 the mill which was located on this side of the road. And this is where
12 they were killed. As for the Murgic people, they were taken to the pond
13 which cannot be seen here. But you reach it via this road here. You have
14 to pass by the railway station, and then you find yourself at a very large
15 fish pond. So when they left the clinic, the area outside the clinic,
16 they passed along this road moving towards the railway station.
17 MS. KORNER: Does Your Honour want to any further -- may that then
18 be produced as.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was S324. Objections?
20 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you very much for these additional
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for these additional comments based on
25 this sketch. This facilitates our understanding of your testimony.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 It's not possible to start with the cross-examination today. And
2 therefore, we have to ask you, Doctor, to return tomorrow, 9.30, for the
3 questions by the Defence. But I can see you have a question. Please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember the name of Dragan
5 Skrbic, father's name Ostoja. Dragan Skrbic was the soldier who came to
6 the clinic in Kozarac. And Ostoja Skrbic was his father who was with Rade
7 Baltic at one point in time. And there's one more addition that I wish to
8 make regarding checkpoints and guard posts, when we discussed snipers and
9 machine-gun nests. I should like to add that the guards were not always
10 the same. They were rotated. Usually every two weeks, they would be
11 rotated. They had with them their personal weapons, and depending on the
12 shift and depending on the weapons there, the situation changed. I'm sure
13 that there must have been guards who did not have machine-guns, for
14 instance. So there must have been periods of time when the only weapons
15 that they had were just personal, light weapons.
16 So it really depended on the kind of the unit that was providing
17 the security, that was doing the guard duty. That would be all. Thank
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you very much for these additional
20 remarks. And as mentioned beforehand, we are glad to know that you are
21 prepared to hear and answer the questions by the Defence tomorrow from
22 9.30 in this same courtroom.
23 May I ask the usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.
24 And thank you very much for today.
25 [The witness stands down]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In the meantime, it remains for me to admit into
2 evidence what has not yet been done. S15-37, -38, -39, -40, and S321-16
3 and -17.
4 As regards now tomorrow, what is the expectation of the Defence?
5 What's the estimated length of time for cross-examination?
6 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we'll be able to finish our cross
7 probably during the first session.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We'll say during the first 90 minutes.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, that's right.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May I ask, will Mr. Ostojic be
11 present tomorrow?
12 MR. LUKIC: I spoke with him two hours ago, and he informed me
13 that he wasn't able to book his flight back to The Hague.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think this causes a problem. It's envisaged
15 that we, as planned and scheduled already last week, we have to finalise
16 the testimony of Mr. Sebire. It's correct that he wants to leave, and he
17 has to leave The Hague?
18 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour. There was a slight misunderstanding
19 by Mr. Koumjian. He was due to go away to interview witnesses last
20 Sunday. Because of what happened, it was changed. So he is here at any
21 stage from now on. So it's not vital from that point of view to hear him,
22 but he's available and ready to testify tomorrow, as I understand it.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. But as you all know, we have only one day
24 available, and we have to use this day for the purposes of his testimony.
25 We will receive additional material. And therefore, I think there is no
1 other way than to proceed. We have already several times given some
2 assistance to the Defence taking care when Mr. Ostojic was not able to be
3 present. But I think the remaining questions can also be put to
4 Mr. Sebire by you, Mr. Stakic [sic]. And I think, in fact, we should
5 concentrate on that what will have the highest probative value. And this
6 is the new table, hopefully to be concluded by tomorrow based on the
7 persons named in the attachment of the fourth amended indictment.
8 Can we agree that we proceed after we have concluded the testimony
9 of Mr. Merdzanic, that we then continue with the testimony of Mr. Sebire?
10 MS. KORNER: There's no problem from our side, Your Honour.
11 MR. LUKIC: We would rather not, Your Honour. But if you rule
12 that way, we'll comply.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's necessary for the reasons given
14 before. And if there should be remaining questions, no doubt, a solution
15 will be found that allows the Defence to put these additional questions,
16 if any, to the witness. So therefore, I would ask the OTP to be prepared
17 tomorrow that Mr. Sebire appears hopefully. And I heard, and rumours
18 were -- on the basis of rumours, that he did work during the entire
19 weekend in preparation of the new table. Hopefully he can provide us with
21 MS. KORNER: I think he worked all night as well as the weekend,
22 Your Honour, so I think he can.
23 May I just mention one other thing, really Mr. Koumjian's
24 appearance reminded me of this, Your Honour made an order of the
25 translation of Mr. Corin's report. It should be done within seven days.
1 Does that include the French? Because I think there will be a problem on
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: First of all, it's the right of the Defence and
4 Dr. Stakic himself. So therefore, absolute priority is given to B/C/S,
5 and then as fast as possible, please, the French translation.
6 MS. KORNER: Yes. Just so that we know that.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Anything in addition prepared for tomorrow?
8 Because it may be that we have additional time available.
9 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour. As Your Honour knows I have been
10 appearing and disappearing saying: "Can I have a legal argument or a
11 legal discussion." I know Your Honour said of course it should be for all
12 three Judges to hear, I wonder if we could adopt the procedure rather like
13 yesterday's where we use up the time where I can address Your Honours.
14 And Your Honours, without making any sort of ruling until Judge Fassi
15 Fihri is back, will get the general gist of the submissions I wish to
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's try and see whether or not this can be
18 possible. We come back to this tomorrow. And I hope that no other issues
19 in this case or in the other case will have priority and demand your
20 presence maybe --
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as I understand what has happened today,
22 there will be no decisions being made tomorrow. And Mr. Cayley will be
23 able to deal with whatever happens first thing tomorrow morning. So as I
24 say, I'm grateful to Your Honour for the extra ten minutes, but I should
25 be covered for tomorrow.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then finally for today, because it has to be
2 prepared - we discussed it already briefly - it is envisaged that, always
3 worst-case thinking, in case Judge Fassi Fihri - we all don't hope - will
4 not be available by next Monday. But we know that the witness summoned
5 for Monday and Tuesday has a very tight time frame and schedule. And
6 therefore, would it be agreeable for the parties that we, for this
7 purpose, act under Rule 71. This would say that we would take a
8 deposition. We would assign one of the Judges in this case as responsible
9 for taking this interview but, at the same time, granting all the
10 procedural rights for the parties, the same method of interviewing this
11 person, and at the same time the possibility for cross-examination for
12 Defence. And then later on, Judge Fassi Fihri is available again,
13 introduce the result of this deposition into the hearing.
14 Would this be an agreeable method of working for the parties?
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I prefer to hear what the Defence have
16 to say first. And then I will respond --
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: We are okay with that kind of procedure, so we don't
19 have any objections, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
21 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, again, it's the same. If the
22 Defence waive any objections, then we are not going to raise an objection
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then we try to proceed this way, still hoping
25 that we can continue with the three of us on Monday. Please understand
1 that I can't inform you right now whether or not we have a hearing on
2 Thursday and Friday. It would be premature. Unfortunately, I didn't have
3 any contact with Judge Fassi Fihri during the lunch break. I will inform
4 you as soon as possible what will happen on Thursday and Friday.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we would have severe problems over
6 witnesses. Mr. Brown, who - Your Honour having said that he will now be
7 giving evidence next week - requires quite a lot of preparation to sort
8 out the documents. And he won't be ready to give evidence on Thursday.
9 That's the difficulty.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Let's consider this question. First,
11 have all facts together and then decide. This is the normal way it goes.
12 So may I ask, any mandatory issues for today?
13 MR. LUKIC: Just one moment, Your Honour. It would be fair to
14 Mr. Ostojic to tell him not to come if there is nothing on Thursday and
15 Friday because he would come here for no working days. So I would ask
16 Your Honours to provide us really as soon as possible the information so
17 we can inform my co-counsel.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I will try to do this within the next two hours.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thanks a lot. Thank you.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Anything from your side?
21 MS. KORNER: No, thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This concludes today's hearing, this 70th day of
23 this hearing. And the trial stays adjourned until tomorrow, 9.30.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
25 at 4.09 p.m., to be reconvened on
1 Wednesday, the 11th day of September, 2002,
2 at 9.30 a.m.