Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11626

1 Monday, 3 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: A very good morning to everybody. Please be

6 seated.

7 Can we hear the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

9 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian with

12 Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Defence.

14 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours, Branko Lukic, John

15 Ostojic, and Danilo Cirkovic for the Defence.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, I received the amended proffer

17 related to Defence Witness 053. So therefore, I take it we will start

18 with this witness. And any protective measures?

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. We start with this witness, and no

20 protective measures.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no other matters to be discussed

22 immediately. So may I ask the usher to escort the witness into the

23 courtroom.

24 In the meantime, could the Defence please indicate the following

25 order after having heard number 053. What will be the calling order for

Page 11627

1 the week?

2 MR. LUKIC: The next one is 079, and we don't have numbers for the

3 rest. So we'll give it to you on the break because they are not here

4 yet. We have only two witnesses.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. If you could inform us immediately after

6 the first break.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, Mr. Marjanovic. Can you hear me

10 in a language you understand?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you then please be so kind and give us

13 your solemn declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please take your seat.

17 You are a witness called by the Defence. Mr. Lukic, please.

18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examined by Mr. Lukic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Marjanovic.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. For the record, my name is Branko Lukic. Together with Mr. John

25 Ostojic and Danilo Cirkovic, I represent Dr. Stakic before the Tribunal in

Page 11628

1 The Hague. Would you please be so kind and also for the record state your

2 name.

3 A. My name is Ostoja Marjanovic. My father's name is Nikola. I was

4 born on the 17th of February, 1942, in Prijedor.

5 Q. Where do you currently reside?

6 A. I currently reside in Prijedor.

7 Q. Where did you reside between 1991 and 1996?

8 A. I lived in the town in Dzemala Bijedica Street. Currently the

9 name of this street is Majora Tepica Street.

10 Q. What is your profession, Mr. Marjanovic?

11 A. I graduated in mining, so I am a mining engineer. I was over 30

12 years of experience in the field.

13 Q. When did you graduate from the university, and where was that?

14 A. I graduated in 1969 in Belgrade. And I returned to the Ljubija

15 mine in Prijedor where I spent all my working life until this very day.

16 Q. Can you please give us some information about your career in the

17 iron mine -- iron ore mine in Ljubija from the day you started working

18 until the moment you stopped working in the mine.

19 A. I'm going to tell you briefly everything I did from 1997 -- 1970.

20 I started as a shift leader. Then I started working on the Omarska

21 project between 1974 and 1979. In 1979 I became the technical director of

22 the central mine, that is one segment of the Ljubija mine. That's where I

23 spent five years. Between 1985 and 1989, I worked as the director of the

24 development sector in the Ljubija mine. And then in 1990, I applied for

25 the position of the CEO of the Ljubija mine, and I was appointed on the

Page 11629

1 1st of February, 1991.

2 Q. Were you ever a member of the SDS?

3 A. Yes. I was a member of the SDS from the -- October of 1983 until

4 1st August, 1994. And I also at the time held the position of the

5 vice-president of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of

6 Prijedor. That was a volunteer position. I apologise.

7 Q. Were you a member of a committee or a board or a commission at the

8 time?

9 A. Yes, I was. I was appointed to the committee on information or

10 propaganda. I don't know what the name of that committee was. I remember

11 we had one unsuccessful meeting because I did not agree with the concept

12 put forth by the president of that committee. I believe that his name was

13 Kantar. And after that, I was never invited to any of the meetings of

14 that committee.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, Prosecution.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps -- Mr. Cirkovic is pointing it out that the

17 witness -- the translation was the witness was a member of SDS October

18 1983. I don't know if counsel wants to clarify that.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the entire question should be repeated,

20 also the next sentence is difficult to understand, or the next two

21 sentences.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, sometimes it happens that things are not recorded

24 in the transcript or are omitted from the transcript. So I would kindly

25 ask you to slow down a little, relax.

Page 11630

1 Can you please repeat the dates, that is the time period during

2 which you were a member of the SDS.

3 A. I apologise. I will tell you about my political engagement. Even

4 before that time, and I believe that you will then be able to understand

5 the confusion that has arisen. I was a member of the League of Communists

6 until 1988. Then I left the ranks of that party of my own will. I was

7 not a member of any party because at that time, the parties that were

8 formed upheld the concept that I was not in favour of.

9 I was a member of the SDS from October 1993 until the 1st of

10 August, 1994. During that period of time, I was a member of the committee

11 on information or propaganda. I really don't remember its exact title.

12 Only one meeting of that committee was held, that is to say, I attended

13 only one meeting of that committee. I did not agree with the concept of

14 the work of that committee. And after that, I was never invited to any of

15 the meetings of that committee.

16 Q. It is also unclear, what was your position?

17 Sorry. It was also unclear, what was your position as a

18 volunteer?

19 A. I was in the position of the vice-president of the Executive Board

20 of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor. And that was from October 1993

21 until the 1st of August, 1994. I was a vice-president of the Executive

22 Board, and this was a voluntary position.

23 Q. During that period of time, were you also a member of the armed

24 forces of Republika Srpska?

25 A. On the 1st of November, 1992, I volunteered and joined the air

Page 11631

1 force of Republika Srpska. And I worked in the air force until 1996. I

2 think that it is exceptionally important for me to explain to you that

3 during this period of time, I was also in the position of the CEO of the

4 iron ore mine, and that was throughout all this period, save for the time

5 that I spent in the Executive Board.

6 Q. Were you in the army? And when you were in the army, were you

7 also in the position of the CEO of the Ljubija mine?

8 A. Yes. This is exactly what I've just said. I've told you that

9 besides being a member of the air force, I continued holding the position

10 of the CEO of the Ljubija mine, and that I did that throughout the entire

11 period save for the period of time that I spent in the position of the

12 vice-president of the Executive Board.

13 Q. The air force of Republika Srpska, and when you were there, what

14 was your duty? What tasks did you have and what duties did you discharge

15 in the air force of Republika Srpska?

16 A. I'm a sports pilot, and the aircraft that I flew on was the

17 aircraft of the sports club that existed in Prijedor. They are two-seater

18 airplanes with the strength of the engine of 220 horsepower. When I

19 joined the air force, I was charged with looking after these aircraft in

20 Prijedor and to be engaged in the civilian part of the organisation of the

21 newly established air force base in Mahovljani. That is some 20

22 kilometres away from Banja Luka. And the civilians' duties consisted of

23 the following: I organised the maintenance of the vehicles there -- not

24 the aircraft but the vehicles. Also to organise the food for the people,

25 to organise the monitored [indiscernable], bearing in mind the huge rate

Page 11632

1 of inflation that prevailed at that time. I believe I have given you a

2 good enough explanation of that.

3 Q. Yes, you did indeed. Thank you.

4 Can you also tell us, please, what was your ethnic background?

5 How did you declare yourself during the last census in 1991 and before

6 that?

7 A. If I remember it well, there was a census in 1971, and then

8 another one in 1991. I declared myself as a Yugoslav.

9 Q. After the personal data, we are now going to move on to the area

10 for which you have been called as a witness. We would kindly ask you to

11 tell us what you know about the period before the conflict, during the

12 conflict, and after the conflict.

13 I would now kindly ask you to focus on the period before April

14 1992. Are you aware of the fact that the transmitter on Kozara was taken

15 over and who was it who took it over? This was the transmitter that

16 transmitted a TV signal for the area of Prijedor.

17 A. The transmitter on Kozara, in addition to the tower that

18 transmitted TV signals also contained some military equipment, some air

19 force military equipment. As far as I know, from what I heard in

20 conversations with citizens of Prijedor, the tower was taken over by the

21 army.

22 Q. After the takeover of this tower, could you watch TV Sarajevo?

23 A. No, we couldn't watch any of the programmes from TV Sarajevo. We

24 received information -- most of our information we received from radio and

25 television Zagreb.

Page 11633

1 Q. So it was possible to follow the programmes of Zagreb TV?

2 A. Yes. Yes. We could do it. All the citizens who wanted to be

3 informed could direct their antennas towards Sljeme mountain, and they

4 could easily follow all the channels of Zagreb TV.

5 Q. In late 1991, did you set up some sort of a movement? Were you at

6 the head of some sort of a movement?

7 A. Bearing in mind everything that was going on in the territory of

8 the former Yugoslavia, I thought that it was my duty and my obligation to

9 try and work on the reconciliation of people, of neighbours of different

10 ethnic backgrounds. Already at the time, one could feel exceptionally

11 strong tensions. And already at the time, there was a division among

12 people on ethnic grounds.

13 I invited respectable representatives of various ethnic

14 backgrounds, doctors, artists, workers. I invited them all to the

15 management building of Ljubija, and I proposed to them that we should form

16 a peace movement. This received a lot of support, and we appointed

17 Dr. Eso Sadikovic as the leader of that movement. We held a few meetings

18 in Prijedor. And at those meetings, people tried to alleviate those

19 tensions, to reduce them. And to prevent the things that one could feel

20 would happen eventually.

21 Within that context, I asked party leaders, the leaders of the

22 SDA, the HDZ, and the SDS, to come to Ljubija together with their closest

23 associates, and the intention was for all of us to talk. I was going to

24 ask them to go to the villages with mixed population and to the villages

25 with a majority population of any ethnic background and to show them that

Page 11634

1 there was unity, all that with a view to protecting the people and

2 resources of Prijedor. There were also journalists amongst us.

3 At that moment, I would say there were entrenched positions

4 already felt. They had their hard-core positions that they defended as

5 hard as they could. The president of the HDZ was my colleague from

6 grammar school. I realised that they didn't want to give in. The meeting

7 ended without any visible results. I remember one detail from that

8 meeting which can illustrate the desire for reconciliation. I said that

9 if anything should happen to me, if an accident should occur to me, I told

10 them that it would be my neighbour who would help me sooner than Milosevic

11 in Belgrade. This was published by journalist Nezirevic. I don't know

12 where he is now.

13 At the end of that meeting, I asked my colleague from grammar

14 school to step into my office. We were alone, the two of us. His name

15 was Silvester Saric. I told him -- I asked him, rather, "Why do you

16 strictly adhere to your principles?" And he told me that he went to

17 meetings in Zagreb, and that he simply has to do that. I didn't realise

18 why, why he should maintain this position. I always considered him to be

19 more responsible to the people in Prijedor than to people in Zagreb.

20 Later on, this peace movement assumed a different form and was

21 taken over by Jutel. Jutel was a newly established radio and television

22 station headed by Goran Milic. I believe that it was Goran Milic who was

23 the head of that station. They held a big meeting in Tuzla as far as I

24 can remember. Later on, they organised the peace march, and they headed

25 for Osijek. However, the result of that were a number of incidents and

Page 11635

1 provocations and so on and so forth.

2 What I'm talking about now I saw on television. I did not

3 participate in that movement. Later on, that movement just ceased to

4 exist spontaneously.

5 Q. Did you propose that representatives of the parties address the

6 public through radio or television, and what was their response to this?

7 A. Yes. Yes. I have already mentioned that this meeting was also

8 attended by journalists. They wanted to interview the leading people in

9 these parties, but they did not want to give them interviews. They did

10 appear, or rather speak on Radio Prijedor, however, and there, they mostly

11 advocated their party platforms.

12 Q. Was there a point in time when you organised people to go to the

13 front in Croatia so that they would see what war was like and become aware

14 of its dangers?

15 A. Yes. Excuse me. At that time, war was already raging in Slavonia

16 and Croatia. There was some units from Prijedor in that war theatre, and

17 I organised a bus from the mine to take these leading party figures to the

18 area where war operations were going on. The places across the bridge,

19 when you cross the bridge in Gradiska, there is a river called Strug where

20 a bridge had been destroyed. And next to that bridge, there is a large

21 village or something like that - I no longer recall its name - where the

22 consequences of war operations were evident, and they were terrible. The

23 houses had been burnt down. Everything was destroyed. There were bullet

24 cases lying all around, tools scattered around, agricultural tools, and so

25 on. There weren't many of us. There were around 15 of us.

Page 11636

1 The leading people from the parties did not come. But there were

2 representatives of the Muslim people, the Croatian people, and the Serbian

3 people. I have a piece of information which might be interesting to show

4 that my intention in going there failed. Dedo Crnalic, a great friend of

5 mine, an acquaintance, an eminent sports worker in Prijedor, in a cafe

6 where there were people who later told me this, he said in the presence of

7 these people, he said: "Marjanovic thought he would frighten me if he

8 showed me what was going on in Slavonia." I had expected anything but

9 this from this friend of mine. And to this day, I don't know what led him

10 to form this opinion.

11 Q. Before the 30th of April, 1992, were there any incidents in the

12 municipality of Prijedor?

13 A. No, there weren't any incidents, but it was quite clear to anyone

14 walking about the town going to public places - and by this I mean

15 restaurants, cafes, canteens - there was already a lot of tension among

16 the people. And it was evident that there was division along ethnic

17 lines. There was something malevolent in the area, but I don't recall any

18 incidents. I don't think there were any.

19 Q. Did you perhaps hear about the stopping of military convoys,

20 provocations of the army, the then JNA?

21 A. Yes. We had occasion to watch this on television, and this

22 happened almost everywhere in Croatia, and before that in Slovenia. And

23 then in Bosnia-Herzegovina while the JNA was withdrawing, roads were

24 blocked and there were provocations. This also happened in Prijedor. I

25 think that a tank unit from Pancevo arrived in Prijedor, and there were

Page 11637

1 already individual excesses. I know of some cases where Muslims were

2 displeased by these incidents, rather --

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects herself. The Muslims

4 said bad things about these units and called them various names.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Were you a member of the Chamber of Commerce of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. For about two months, after I was appointed -- or rather, two

9 months after I was appointed general director of the Ljubija mine, I was

10 advised by the Chamber of Economy of Bosnia-Herzegovina that I had become

11 a member. I attended a few meetings in Sarajevo. And I attended two or

12 three meetings in Zenica where there was discussion of repairing RMK

13 Zenica, which is a large metallurgy complex in Zenica, in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Ljubija was part of this large complex.

15 I was able to have discussions on the economy with Mr. Abdic who

16 was delegated by the presidency to take charge of the economy. These were

17 times of great difficulty in economic terms because inflation was very

18 high, and there was no money available. We had a plant exporting clay to

19 Italy. That was an exporter from Rijeka. And at that time, we lost some

20 of our revenue because payments were not flowing smoothly, and this money

21 was simply lost. There was some talk of a loan from Libya amounting to

22 $60 million in order to rescue RMK Zenica. The mine had loans from the

23 Soviet Union amounting to $50 million. We expected funds, and I have

24 information that the first payment of $30 million arrived in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina; however, not a single dollar reached Prijedor. And

Page 11638

1 subsequent events caused the complete stoppage of the work of this

2 complex.

3 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, for the sake of clarity, you say that your

4 exporter was in Rijeka?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What republic is Rijeka in?

7 A. Rijeka is in Croatia. It's right below Istria, and it was

8 convenient for us to work with them because we were exporting to Italy,

9 and they were middlemen and in the immediate vicinity of Triest and Geneva

10 where the offices of our buyers were.

11 Q. The impossibility of collecting these payments, did this occur

12 when war broke out in Croatia?

13 A. Evidently, yes. I will try to clarify this further by saying that

14 I instructed the commercial director and the technical director of the

15 mine to go to Triest, but they had to travel by way of Hungary and

16 Slovenia. That is how they reached Triest. And the buyer sent them a

17 certain sum of money so that we could pay the wages of the workers

18 employed in producing the clay that we exported to Italy.

19 Q. At that time, you were at the head of the iron ore mine of

20 Ljubija. Can you explain to us what sort of organisation this was, what

21 its organisational units were, how later on the structure of this company

22 changed.

23 A. Iron ore mines, or rather, the Ljubija iron ore mines, on the 1st

24 of February, 1991, had 4.630 employees. That was on the date when I was

25 appointed general director of the Ljubija mine. I think I should say that

Page 11639

1 the ethnic makeup of the employees in the mine was approximately as

2 follows: About 1.100 Muslims; about 1.100 or 1.200 Croats; and the rest

3 were Serbs. And of course, I was a Yugoslav. The organisation was rather

4 complicated, but I will try to explain it to you.

5 This was a complex organisation of associated labour where there

6 were nine or ten basic associations -- basic organisations of associated

7 labour which operated with their own management and which had all the

8 characteristics of companies. That is, they had their managing director,

9 the company secretary, foremen in the mines, leaders of the economic

10 units, and so on and so forth. I was the president of the management

11 board which consisted of the managing directors of the basic organisations

12 of associated labour.

13 I will try to give you more details. I apologise if I don't

14 remember everything. The basic organisation of the central mines was in

15 Ljubija. The basic organisation of associated labour of the eastern mines

16 was in Busnovi or Tomasica. The basic organisation of associated labour

17 of Omarska was in the Omarska, Lamovita, and Mariska local communes. The

18 basic organisation of associated labour of administration, personnel, and

19 general services. Then there was the maintenance and repair

20 organisation. Then there was the basic organisation of associated labour

21 of providing meals for the canteen. Then there was another basic

22 organisation of mining works and working unit for bookkeeping and other

23 administrative matters.

24 Management system was one of subordination to the general

25 director, that is, the president of the management board via the directors

Page 11640

1 of the basic organisations of associated labour, and then the work units.

2 The work units and the board of management were located in Prijedor in the

3 street that used to be called Mosa Pijada Number 1. That was the

4 headquarters. And the headquarters of the other basic organisation of

5 associated labour were located in the plants.

6 Do you feel that this is sufficient, or should I go into further

7 detail?

8 Q. I will just try to remind you, was the company, or rather the

9 basic organisation of associated labour as it was then Geoistrage, was it

10 part of this organisation?

11 A. Mr. Lukic, I apologise. I forgot to mention not only Geoistrage

12 but also Unametal and Ferox. And I do apologise but it's hard for me to

13 enumerate everything all at once. It may be interesting for me to say

14 where these basic organisations were geographically in relation to the

15 headquarters in Prijedor. Ljubija is about 12 kilometres away. Tomasica,

16 or rather, the eastern mines is about 18 kilometres. Omarska was some 20

17 kilometres away. Unametal was some 5 kilometres away. Maintenance and

18 repair were in the town.

19 Q. I think that all that remains for us to mention is the car

20 servicing organisation of associated labour.

21 A. Yes. But let me also mention that this system existed until the

22 beginning of 1992 when by a decision of the board of management, some of

23 these organisations, Unametal, Ferox, the canteens, and the mining and

24 construction works were separated by a referendum of the employees. But

25 the car servicing unit, the referendum was not -- did not come out in

Page 11641

1 favour of separation. So the central mines, eastern mines, Omarska, and

2 maintenance and repair and the car servicing unit remained.

3 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Would the usher be so kind and show the

4 witness Exhibit Number S15-16, please.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, do you recognise what is on this

6 photograph?

7 A. Yes, I do. I do recognise it, yes. This is the administration

8 building of the Omarska mine with the canteen and the service workshop.

9 That's this bigger building.

10 Q. Just a moment, please.

11 What is the building on the left-hand side of the photograph?

12 A. Are you referring to this one?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. That -- rather, this is the administration building. This one

15 here. And the smaller part is the canteen. And this big building, that

16 is the service workshop. The road arriving from the north in this

17 direction here, that's north, this road leads to the surface excavation

18 site. And here you can see where the sludge accumulated, and this leads

19 to the Medjudja site and the Medjudja sludge disposal area.

20 Q. Let's just clarify something. The road arriving in this complex,

21 does it come from the east? If we look to the left, is that east or

22 north?

23 A. In my view, it's northeast/east, so it's more east than north.

24 But it's not purely east, strictly east.

25 Q. On the right-hand side of this big building, are there electric

Page 11642

1 units?

2 A. As I remember, because from 1974 to 1979, I was the leader of the

3 project. There are some underground cables, some above-ground cables, and

4 some posts. And as for these smaller buildings, I don't know what their

5 purpose was. They were part of the complex. For the sake of

6 clarification, Omarska was completed in 1984, and I stopped work on the

7 project in 1979.

8 Q. Although you can't see it on this photo, can you tell us whether

9 in the area of these facilities that is covered by asphalt, are there

10 lighting posts?

11 A. Yes, there are. I'm sure of that. To confirm what I'm saying, I

12 would like to say that flying in a small Piper, I wanted to land there,

13 but I couldn't because of the lighting posts.

14 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Okay, thank you. We won't need the

15 photograph any more.

16 Q. [Interpretation] You said that you were a member of the Chamber of

17 Commerce of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the period before the outbreak of

18 the conflict. Is that correct?

19 A. I've said I was a member of the Chamber of Commerce of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And in 1991, I attended a few meetings. I also

21 attended a few meetings with Mr. Abdic in Zenica. And at the end of 1991

22 and in the beginning of 1992, I did not receive any invitations for any of

23 the meetings. I don't know whether they considered me to be a member of

24 the Chamber of Commerce at the time or not.

25 Q. Some things we absolutely understand because we come from the

Page 11643

1 area. However, there are other participants in this trial, and that's why

2 I may be asking you questions for which you will think that you have

3 already answered them or that you imply things in your previous answers.

4 A. I will say that once again. In 1991, I attended a few meetings,

5 but after that, I no longer received any invitations and I didn't attend

6 any of the meetings of the Chamber of Commerce of Bosnia and Herzegovina

7 after that, after the end of 1991, beginning 1992.

8 Q. You said that Mr. Abdic also participated in these meetings.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What party did Mr. Abdic represent?

11 A. Mr. Abdic came to these meetings in Zenica on behalf of the

12 presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he was a member as far as I know of

13 the SDA. He received a number, a large number of votes in the elections,

14 and bearing in mind the number of votes that he received, he should have

15 been the president of the presidency.

16 Q. I must explain, I'm not dissatisfied with your answer. I'm just

17 waiting for the translation to be over.

18 So, Mr. Abdic was also a member of the presidency of the Republic

19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. Yes. He was a member of the presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina

21 in charge of economic trends during that period of time in Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina. Since he joined the presidency from a well-known company and

23 a businessman with a reputation, his company name was Agrokomerc and that

24 company was well-known in the former Yugoslavia and all over Europe. I

25 would like to apologise to everybody for sometimes rush, and I especially

Page 11644

1 apologise to the interpreters and to the court reporters for giving them a

2 hard time.

3 Q. You've mention that had in the elections in 1990, Mr. Abdic got a

4 huge number of votes and that he should have, therefore, become the

5 president of the republic.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know, what actually happened? How come that

8 Mr. Izetbegovic became the president of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

9 A. I only know what I read in the press and what I read as

10 communication of the body in charge of the -- of counting of votes in the

11 elections. According to that, Mr. Abdic received the biggest number of

12 votes, but I really don't know what happened in the SDA among the leaders

13 of the SDA who decided that it would be Izetbegovic who would become the

14 most prominent figure.

15 Q. As the director of the mine, did you report to the government of

16 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17 A. No. Not to the government. I didn't report to the government.

18 However, we had to intervene very often when we couldn't pay salaries,

19 when there were strikes in the mine in 1991. So we had to intervene with

20 a prime minister. I believe his name was Pero Pehlivan. I had contacts

21 with him on two or three occasions. And I was also received by

22 Mr. Cengic. I was in the delegation of the Ljubija Trade Union. We

23 appealled to his authority and asked him to have a word with the bank of

24 Zenica and asked them to pay for the iron ore that was delivered to

25 Zenica. All the transactions went through that bank.

Page 11645

1 Mr. Hrle was also present at that meeting. He was the president

2 of the trade union of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

3 Q. On page 19, line 16, there is a name Pero. And I believe that you

4 said Pehlivan.

5 A. Correct. Pehlivan.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 In 1991 and in 1992, did you notice -- did you observe that there

8 was a migration of the population, and where were people headed for?

9 A. At the beginning of 1991, this did not occur, and I couldn't see

10 it or feel it. Bearing in mind my role and my position, I did not really

11 pay too much attention to any such events. However, in late 1991, I did

12 see that the families of my friends started leaving. Those were mostly

13 women and children and elderly people.

14 I'm going to give you an example hoping that my friend, whom I'm

15 going to mention, will not hold it against me. Emir Kulenovic was my good

16 friend. We visited each other. And he was the one who sent his family

17 away sometime in late 1991 or early 1992. Eso Tadic left the area in

18 May. He left Prijedor in May, although until then, we were inseparable.

19 He never came to goodbye. I never understood why all this was going on,

20 although I could feel the tensions and I believed that the tensions were

21 the cause of their departure.

22 I also thought at the time that maybe they knew more than I knew.

23 Mr. Emir Kulenovic left Prijedor and Banja Luka with the Borac football.

24 This is a Banja Luka-based football team. They were playing in the finals

25 in Bari in Italy. He never gave the reason for leaving Banja Luka. I

Page 11646

1 can't give you any more information on that because I was not the one who

2 had that many friends, nor was I in the position to observe things at a

3 larger extent.

4 But I know of an incident that took place in a bus headed for

5 Banja Luka. I believe that the police had to intervene, that it stopped

6 the bus and ordered some of the people on the bus who were leaving

7 Prijedor to return to Prijedor, to go back.

8 Q. This incident involving the bus, did that happen before the 30th

9 of April or after the 30th of April, after the takeover?

10 A. I don't know. I can't give you a precise answer. But I didn't

11 mention the fact that my best man, Mirko Drljaca sent his children to

12 Belgrade at the same time. So this was not only the case of Muslims

13 leaving, but also some Serb families, and I suppose there were also Croat

14 families who did the same.

15 Q. In 1991 and 1992, did you notice the arrival of refugees from

16 Croatia?

17 A. Yes. I apologise. This has reminded me of the year 1995. But

18 after the things that happened to Zec family in Zagreb, Serbian families

19 started returning to Prijedor from Croatia, and they didn't bring any of

20 their property, anything, with them. And they remained in Prijedor after

21 that.

22 Q. Can you please tell us, now that you have mentioned Zec family,

23 what happened to them? Where is that family from?

24 A. I believe that Zec family is from the vicinity of Prijedor. I

25 believe that the name of the village is Dragotinja or something like

Page 11647

1 that. I don't know the details. I only know what I read in the papers.

2 And I read again two or three years ago the statement of their grown-up

3 children who had survived. And the story was that uniformed people came,

4 took them out of the house. And after that, they never saw their father

5 again. I know that the family was rather well off. They were actually

6 rich. They were a rich, Serb family residing in Zagreb.

7 Q. Do you know that the perpetrators of the crime committed against

8 the Zec family were later on decorated, received some medals?

9 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

10 Q. Did you know Mr. Arsic? I'm not mentioning his ranks because --

11 his rank because the rank changed.

12 A. Yes, I knew him. He was, I believe, in 1990 and 1991 the

13 commander of the garrison of the Yugoslav People's Army in Prijedor. I

14 believe that in late 1991, he was Lieutenant-Colonel, but I'm not sure.

15 And if you will allow me, having said that, I knew him. I had opportunity

16 to attend meetings organised by him in my capacity as a businessman. I

17 believe that he is a native of Serbia. He was from Serbia. He was

18 exceptionally -- I would like to use a word "arrogant," but that is not

19 what would describe him. He was domineering. When he issued orders, he

20 did it in a very domineering tone.

21 At the time that I met him, he was still not in the military. And

22 that is probably -- I believe that the military education turned him into

23 the man that he was. He did not put up with any discussions. He just

24 issued orders, and he expected people to obey his orders and to deliver.

25 Q. When we're talking about him, we also mentioned the sentence which

Page 11648

1 he used to explain to other nonmilitary how things would develop from then

2 on.

3 A. The sentence was things that he said they would be. That's why I

4 said previously that he didn't put up with discussions. I mean, yes, the

5 discussion was okay, but eventually, he had the last call, and things

6 would be what he decided them to be.

7 Q. Can you describe the process of the distribution of positions in

8 Prijedor Municipality after the multiparty elections in 1990? At what

9 level was that established, at what level was that implemented? Do you

10 know who participated in the discussions on the distribution of positions?

11 A. The SDS, the SDA, and the HDZ won the elections. I believe that

12 the communists also had a small number of seats in the assembly. In

13 conversations with my colleagues, I learned about the issues that you are

14 asking me about. The assembly was convened, and after that, the executive

15 branch of the government had to be established; that is, the Executive

16 Board of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor.

17 There were secretariats which did the work in the municipality,

18 and the parties proposed their candidates for certain positions. The

19 discussions lasted for a long time. And I know from conversations that

20 Srdjo Srdic participated on part of the SDS in these discussions, that

21 there was also Dr. Milan Kovacevic, and I believe Simo Miskovic, who was

22 the president of the SDS at the time. Whether there were any other people

23 representing the SDS, I don't know.

24 Again, from conversations, I know that Dr. Mujadzic participated

25 on behalf of the SDA, and that -- and I don't know who represented the HDZ

Page 11649

1 in those discussions.

2 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Would it be a convenient time, Your

3 Honour?

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Indeed, it would.

5 The trial stays adjourned until 10 minutes to 11.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

9 The Defence may proceed with the most concrete and most relevant

10 questions immediately, please. Continue.

11 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, first of all, we have the obligation to

12 tell you the numbers of the coming witnesses for this week.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please.

14 MR. LUKIC: It's number 079, 066, 070, and 006.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Thank you for this information. Taking

16 this into account, as mentioned before, we discussed it briefly during the

17 break, if you can concentrate on the relevant questions, relevant for this

18 case, not relevant for the situation in former Yugoslavia. But I think

19 you understand what I want to say by this because of the witness.

20 So please proceed.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, you were appointed the CEO of the

23 mine on the 1st of February, 1991, as you've told us. Were there attempts

24 to remove you in 1992 after the 30th of April?

25 A. Yes. There were attempts on the part of some leaders of the SDS.

Page 11650

1 I was not the only target of that. There were a number of company

2 directors who were targeted at the time. Later on, two or three company

3 directors were removed by these people. I remained in my position as the

4 director of the mine, and I don't have any explanation for that. The

5 director of Energopetrol was removed. His name was Radomir Bursac. The

6 director of the post was removed. His name was Marko Pavic. I know about

7 the two of them. If there were any other changes, any other removals from

8 positions, I don't know.

9 Q. At that time, was Mr. Sidjak appointed to any of the leading

10 positions?

11 A. I know Mr. Sidjak. He was a member of the SDS, and he was

12 appointed later on in a later stage as the director of Energopetrol. Some

13 month or two months later, he was arrested for a fraud. They embezzled

14 about 400.000 German marks in one way or another. So these people from

15 the SDS, they did that.

16 Q. After the 30th of April, 1992, did you hear that immediately after

17 that date, there was a murder?

18 A. I think there was a murder in mid-May. I don't know the exact

19 date. This was the murder of a reserve policeman in the Prijedor area at

20 the border of Cereci and Urije, but I've forgotten the man's name.

21 Q. After this murder, did the police take their revenge against the

22 civilian population? Did you hear anything of that sort?

23 A. No. This didn't happen. There was an investigation. I don't

24 know what the result of the investigation was. But at least I think so,

25 things were done by the book. The legal procedure was followed, according

Page 11651

1 to the then-valid legislation of the Municipality of Prijedor and the

2 police rules.

3 Q. Did you hear whether the police killed someone in order to

4 retaliate, to take revenge, for this murder?

5 A. No. I'm sure this didn't happen because since I heard about the

6 murder of this policeman, I would have heard of other events had they

7 occurred in Prijedor. I think there were no incidents of any sort, let

8 alone revenge of this kind.

9 Q. So we have started discussing the period after the 30th of April,

10 1992. Mr. Marjanovic, yesterday, you handed over to us some documents.

11 They have not been translated. And therefore, I would like to ask you to

12 read to us first the document that was read out as an announcement on

13 Radio Prijedor after the takeover of power, and to tell us, first of all,

14 how you came by this document.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Provisionally D56B.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, is this the document which you identified to us as

18 a document containing the announcement read out on the 30th of April,

19 1992, on Radio Prijedor?

20 A. Yes. This is the document, and it fully corresponds to the text

21 that was read out on Radio Prijedor. And I received this document from

22 the journalist Rajlic who worked in the mine as a journalist and who later

23 went to work in the Kozarski Vjesnik press centre.

24 Q. Would you please tell us when he left the mine in order to work in

25 Kozarski Vjesnik.

Page 11652

1 A. It was probably two or three years before this.

2 Q. When did you receive the document which is before you from

3 Mr. Rajlic?

4 A. On the same day that it was read out on Radio Prijedor.

5 Q. Would you now be so kind as to read this document to us slowly so

6 that all of this will be interpreted and entered into the record.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just for clarification ask you when did

8 you receive this document? You just told us it was the same day. When

9 the same day, morning --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was on the 30th of April in the

11 course of the day. It was around 11.00 a.m. or 12.00 noon.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please proceed.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "To the citizens of the Municipality

14 of Prijedor: A year and a half has already elapsed since the first

15 multiparty elections, and the constitution of a multiparty municipal

16 parliament or assembly and other municipal organs. And we still have a

17 single party and single ethnic government in the municipality.

18 "Due to the fact that the Party of Democratic Action all this time

19 did not wish to share power, either with the winning parties or with the

20 opposition parties, the work of the Municipal Assembly has been blocked,

21 and the work of all other organs of government has been blocked. And

22 because of this, the citizens and peoples of the municipality of Prijedor

23 are living in a state of anarchy, insecurity, poverty, and great fear, and

24 this is not all. The large companies in Prijedor are being intentionally

25 destroyed. The work of all social institutions is being obstructed, as is

Page 11653

1 the work of all public services. The sowing and reaping of crops is being

2 hindered, as are supplies of staple foods for the citizens, while at the

3 same time the public is being misinformed and told that negotiations are

4 underway on sharing power.

5 "The dozens of solutions achieved during negotiations among the

6 three ruling parties have been obstructed by the leadership of the Party

7 of Democratic Action whose leaders, acting through their people in the

8 government organs and financial institutions, are looting the Municipality

9 of Prijedor on a large scale. There have even been attempts to

10 disassemble and take away whole factories from Prijedor and taking them

11 off to other areas. There has been a great deal of blackmail. There have

12 been demands for foreign currency for the Party of Democratic Action and

13 its leaders to be paid so that they would leave individual socially-owned

14 and privately-owned companies alone, because not even the minimum

15 conditions for work have been provided for the companies. The citizens

16 have been left without any means of earning their living. Workers are

17 jobless and are not receiving their wages while old-age pensioners have

18 lost their pensions. And the citizens have lost their savings, their

19 health insurance, as well as legal and physical security, which has all

20 led to the breakdown of life in general of the people in our municipality.

21 "A great deal of tension has been caused in the past 30 days

22 intentionally and for certain purposes, purposes pertaining to a special

23 psychological war. And this has been caused by the organised departure of

24 the Muslim population from Prijedor, especially women and children who

25 have left for Croatia, Slovenia, Austria, and Germany, where they spread

Page 11654

1 lies saying that they were fleeing massacres being prepared for them by

2 the Serbian people. Dozens of buses full of young Muslim men have gone to

3 Austrian centres for military training under the pretext of going to work

4 abroad. This has intensified fear of the imminent war in our

5 municipality.

6 "The last straw was on the 29th of April, 1992 when the so-called

7 Ministry of Defence of the Ministry of the Interior of the so-called

8 sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina, when a dispatch arrived with an order to

9 the municipal secretariat for the interior and the secretariat for

10 national defence as well as the Territorial Defence staff to the effect

11 that in the Prijedor Municipality, they should immediately block

12 communications, military barracks, and military facilities to mount

13 attacks on the JNA, to take away from them weapons and technology, all of

14 which would mean war, death, destruction, and arson in our municipality.

15 "On several occasions, Nijaz Durakovic, the president of the

16 socialist democratic party, has called on his members, the members of his

17 party, to wage a war against Yugoslavia, the regular JNA, and thus, the

18 Serbian people, which is unacceptable for all citizens of goodwill. For

19 all these reasons, we have decided to take over power in the Municipality

20 of Prijedor and, therefore, to take over full responsibility for the

21 peaceful and secure life of all citizens and peoples in our municipality,

22 the protection of their property, the establishment of the rule of law,

23 the organising of the economy, and normal life in the town and in the

24 villages in the area of the municipality.

25 "We wish to tell all the citizens of the Municipality of Prijedor

Page 11655

1 that in our peaceful Kozara area, we must never again experience war and

2 slaughter, burning and destruction, charred homes, screams of terror,

3 which is the aim of the fanatical and slavish rump leadership of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. For this reason, we must remain calm, reasonable,

5 continue living and working, and establishing normal life and work, all of

6 which has been disrupted by the single party and single nationality

7 authorities of the Serbian" --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter correct herself, of the Party of

9 Democratic Action.

10 A. "Companies must continue to operate. Communications must be

11 passable and safe. Supplies must be normal because poverty, misery, fear,

12 the brandishing of arms and psychological exhaustion must end. With this

13 end in view, this government is taking over all functions and

14 responsibility for normalising the situation and life in general on the

15 area of our municipality. In this way, we shall make a big contribution

16 to the solution of the crisis in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

17 negotiations which are underway.

18 "Dear citizens, peaceful, safe, and protected life and property

19 for each individual are the highest values we have been building up for 50

20 years in freedom. Therefore, join us and help us to defend all this and

21 preserve it from all those who wish to push us into war, death, and

22 desolation. For this reason, let us continue working normally in all

23 companies, institutions, organs, public services, and all the other areas

24 where we work and live. We must finally begin to live and work in the

25 freedom and democracy that we have opted for in the multiparty elections.

Page 11656

1 "In Prijedor, on the 30th of April, 1992, the new leadership and

2 government of the Municipality of Prijedor."

3 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I would like the usher to show the

4 witness Exhibit Number D6, please.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, have you ever seen this document

6 before? And if you haven't, say so.

7 A. I have never had an opportunity of seeing this document before.

8 Q. This document is an order which arrived on the 29th of April, 1992

9 through the communications system within the MUP, the Ministry of the

10 Interior. Can you read this silently to yourself, and then tell us

11 whether this might be the dispatch referred to in the announcement we have

12 just read.

13 A. I have heard about this document from my conversations with my

14 associates, and I have even heard that this document happened to fall into

15 the hands of the leadership and the Serbian people. It is my opinion that

16 this is the document referred to in the announcement of the 30th of April,

17 1992.

18 Q. Will you kindly read the date on this dispatch.

19 A. The MUP, the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, number 10-70, the

20 29th of April, 1992.

21 Q. And who signed it, please.

22 A. The minister of the interior, Alija Delimustafic.

23 Q. At that time, was Mr. Delimustafic actually the minister for the

24 interior?

25 A. Yes, yes, I'm sure he was.

Page 11657

1 Q. As regards the announcement that you have just read out to us, did

2 you hear from the man who gave you this document who was actually behind

3 this announcement? I don't mean behind the dispatch.

4 A. It was the party, the SDS party, that was behind this

5 announcement. And the man who gave me this, the journalist, was also a

6 member of that party.

7 Q. At that time, when the announcement was aired, do you know whether

8 there was the Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor?

9 A. No. There wasn't a Crisis Staff.

10 Q. We'll go back to the Crisis Staff later. For the time being, we

11 won't need the document, so can I please ask the usher to take them away.

12 Mr. Marjanovic, immediately after the takeover, did

13 representatives of the MUP come to your company? If they did, what did

14 they tell you about your duties at work?

15 A. In the morning, on the 30th of April, 1992, I was called, I

16 received a call, at 5.00 in the morning, and I was told to come to the

17 administrative building. They didn't tell me why I was supposed to go

18 there. They just told me it was urgent. I went to the administrative

19 building, and I found there some people in uniforms. I didn't know any of

20 them. There were both police uniforms and military uniforms.

21 One of the men asked me if I was the director of the mine. When I

22 introduced myself, he informed me that the SDS had taken over Prijedor and

23 that we should continue working as before, that all the employees should

24 continue working. And they also asked me to be in the corridor, at the

25 entrance, to the company building at 7.00, that is, at the time when the

Page 11658

1 employees were arriving at work.

2 To continue this line of thinking, let me tell you that all the

3 employees came to work normally; however, two of my managers objected to

4 the presence of the police in the corridor. We explained to them what had

5 happened, and then they went to their respective offices. Through my

6 secretary, I informed the production floors in Omarska, Tomasica, Ljubija,

7 and the central workshop and all the others that we have already

8 identified, I informed all of them that there had been a takeover by the

9 SDS and that they should continue working normally.

10 The majority of the employees obeyed that, observed that. The

11 only people who didn't observe that information were the employees of

12 maintenance and repair services. Their director was Esref Crnkic. In the

13 previous period, his office was the place where the meetings of the

14 Executive Board of the SDA used to take place. He was related to the

15 president of the SDA, Mr. Mujadzic.

16 Q. On that day and on the following days, that is, before the

17 outbreak of the conflict, did you dismiss or fire anybody from the

18 company?

19 A. No, I didn't dismiss anybody. I didn't fire anybody. In order to

20 have an overview of the work force, I asked the directors of all the

21 production floors and services, as well as all the secretaries, to deliver

22 the lists of the employees of those who worked, who were on military

23 training or who were on paid leave. We did that up to the 6th or 7th of

24 May, and then we stopped with that practice.

25 Q. Did anybody after the 30th of April, that is, after the takeover,

Page 11659

1 anybody from the new government order you to fire any of the employees?

2 After the 30th of April, did anybody issue an order to that effect?

3 A. No. No such order was issued. They actually asked for all the

4 employees to remain in their jobs. It was for that reason that I asked my

5 directors to send me the list of employees that I have just mentioned.

6 Q. You have also given us a group of documents which corroborate what

7 you have just told us, the records of the employees who were present at

8 work on any given day.

9 MR. LUKIC: [In English] The documents.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, we're dealing with a number of

11 documents here. Would you kindly give us firstly the date on the top of

12 the document and try to identify it and help us find a document that

13 you're talking about.

14 A. The first document is DPRZ Ljubija/Prijedor. The economic unit at

15 the clay mine of Crna Dolina, the list of employees who were supposed to

16 work on the 4th and the 5th of May, 1992.

17 Q. Just a moment. Let all of us try and find the document.

18 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Can the usher please put the document on

19 the ELMO so the rest can find the same document, please.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be provisional D57B.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, could you please tell us what this document is all

23 about.

24 A. The document is the original. Everything is original but the

25 highlighted names of certain persons. And the person who signed this

Page 11660

1 document is Ivo Komljenovic. He was the technical manager of the economic

2 unit. He was a Croat and a neighbour of mine. In mid-1992, he went to

3 Germany together with his family. He stayed there with his brothers and

4 he worked there. Currently, he resides in Zagreb.

5 This document shows the multi-ethnic composition of the work

6 force. Also, the document shows under 5.5 which of the employees were on

7 paid leave. There were a total of four employees on paid leave. This

8 would be my comment of this document.

9 Q. Can you please give us -- put the next document on the ELMO, the

10 next document that you are going to talk about.

11 A. This document arises from the joint functions of the mine. And

12 more precisely, this is the development sector. This is the list of

13 employees who turned up for work on the 4th of May, 1992. The development

14 sector consists of a number of services, and these services are identified

15 here in this document. First of all, there is the geological service on

16 page 1; mining measurements on page 2; investment also on page 2; design

17 on page 3; technology, I believe that it is on the same page; and finally

18 on page 4, organisers.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: On this bundle, we received together this

20 additional fifth page.

21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Would the usher be so kind and turn the

22 next page, please.

23 Q. [Interpretation] And what is on the last page?

24 A. Common functions, development sector, the list of workers who

25 failed to turn up for work on the 4th of May, 1992. Geological services,

Page 11661

1 three people did not turn up for work because they were on annual leave.

2 Mining measurements --

3 Q. Just a moment, please. Out of the three who did not come to work

4 that day because they were on annual leave, what is the ethnic background

5 of the person under number 1, Marko Iveljic?

6 A. Marko Iveljic is a Croat.

7 Q. What is the ethnic background of the person under number 2,

8 Miroslava Spasovic?

9 A. Miroslava Spasovic under 2 is a Serbian lady.

10 Q. And now under number 3, what is the ethnic background of Alma

11 Muranovic?

12 A. Under number 3, Alma Muranovic is a Muslim lady.

13 Q. Thank you. Can you please continue explaining page number 5 to

14 us.

15 A. Mining measurements, one person did not come to work, Milan

16 Dragic, who was on military training.

17 Q. Just a moment, please. Who was it who was recorded as being on

18 military exercise or military training?

19 A. Military training was the situation that was recorded when people

20 were mobilised.

21 Q. Why did you then say that they were on military training?

22 A. We were told by the department of defence that people were being

23 sent for military training, and we were supposed to pay them, give them

24 salary, which was later on reimbursed by the military, by the army.

25 Q. Now, the two people from the design department.

Page 11662

1 A. Yes, Mustafa Biscevic under number 1. He called in -- somebody

2 called in and said that he was in Bjeljina and that he was asking either

3 for a paid leave or an annual leave. Under 2, Ilijaz Drobic, he called in

4 and asked whether he was supposed to come to work. He was told that he

5 could take paid leave, and he subsequently called in to say that he was on

6 his way to work, that he would come to work.

7 Q. Can you please tell us, what is the ethnic background of these two

8 men?

9 A. They are both Muslims.

10 Q. Can you please continue.

11 A. Technology, four men. Simo Karan, military training of the

12 Territorial Defence. Zeljko Mlinar, military drill of the Territorial

13 Defence. Dragomir Vrucinic, military drill of the Yugoslav People's

14 Army. And handwritten addition, Drago Anic, military drill of the

15 Yugoslav People's Army.

16 Q. Kindly read again the names of these people again and tell us

17 their ethnic background.

18 A. Under 1, Simo Karan is a Serb. Under 2, Zeljko Mlinar is a

19 Croat. Under 3, Dragomir Vrucinic is a Serb. As for Drago Anic, I'm not

20 sure whether he is a Serb or a Croat.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before we mark this document provisionally, we

23 can see that -- and no doubt, the first four pages seem to be one

24 document. The fifth page doesn't show on the top of the page the number

25 "5." Could you please tell us, was this one document, or was the fifth

Page 11663

1 page added to the previous document?

2 MR. LUKIC: [In English] If I may assist --

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please let --

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Can you please take the document in your hands and look at it.

6 A. This document is an original, and it arrived at my desk in this

7 form. I don't know what the director of the development sector added to

8 this document subsequently, why did he not put the page number on the page

9 containing the list of workers who failed to show up for work. But I

10 believe, and it is my testimony, that the last page of this document is an

11 integral part of the original document.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So the entire document containing five pages

13 would be provisionally marked D58B. And that we do not have to return to

14 this document, may I just ask, on the fifth page, one can read "Milan

15 Dragic." I know there are a number of persons with the second or the

16 final name Dragic. Do you know by chance a Milovan Dragic? Is it one and

17 the same person or a relative, sibling, to Milan Dragic? Page 5, Rudarsko

18 Mjerenje.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know Milovan Dragic, but this is

20 not that same person. This person here is a driver in this particular

21 service in the mining measurements and --

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know whether or not this Milan Dragic is

23 a relative to Milovan Dragic?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification. Please

Page 11664

1 proceed. If it's -- maybe it's appropriate to have the break now.

2 The trial stays adjourned until 1.30.

3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 1.35 p.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

6 Please, Mr. Lukic, proceed.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

8 Would the usher be so kind and place another document on the ELMO

9 so we know which one Mr. Marjanovic is talking about.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it correct, there's one document, one page

11 only?

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Because one can see that there had been a

14 document attached to this previously.

15 MR. LUKIC: That was a copy, so we stapled everything together,

16 and probably one is taken off. So Your Honours can look at the original

17 which is in front of Mr. Marjanovic.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We come back to this later when we discuss the

19 admission into evidence. This would be marked provisionally D59B.

20 Please continue.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you once again, Your Honour.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, would you please explain what

23 this is about, this document.

24 A. This document was drawn up on the 4th of May, 1992, by the head of

25 the mining sector, Mr. Ibrahim Pahunovic, a graduate engineer, and the

Page 11665

1 sector is the mining sector. It's a list of employees in the sector and

2 the status on the 30th of April and the 4th of May, 1992.

3 Under number 1 is Ibrahim Paunovic who worked and continued to

4 work until the 4th of May, 1992.

5 Q. Just a moment, please. When you say worked until the 4th of May,

6 1992, does this mean that his employment was terminated on that date, or

7 that he worked on both days, the 30th of April and the 4th of May?

8 A. Here it says clearly under number 1, Ibrahim Paunovic, and this is

9 the report for the 30th of April, 1992, and it says here that he worked,

10 that he was present at work on that date. And then in the next column, it

11 says work on the 4th of May, 1992. Under number 2, Djuric, Ljubomir,

12 Ljubomir Djuric, it says military exercise on the 30th. And then he

13 returned and worked until the 4th of May. Zora Bilbija was on annual

14 leave, and her annual leave continued. Muhamed Mujagic worked and will

15 continue to work. Tinka Knezevic was present at work and will continue to

16 be so.

17 Under number 6, Esad Pasagic on paid leave, and he reported from

18 his paid leave. Semsa Novakovic under number 7 was present at work, and

19 then the next column says annual leave. Mirzeta Halilovic was present on

20 the 30th, and then in the next column it says annual leave. Gordana

21 Manojlovic was on paid leave, and she reported from her paid leave. Cedna

22 Puric was on paid leave, and she reported. She called in. And then in

23 the note, it says: "The following are on paid leave: 1, Esad Pasagic,

24 Gordana Manojlovic, and Cedna Puric." And then it was signed for the

25 mining sector by Ibrahim Paunovic.

Page 11666

1 Q. I apologise, but we shall have to go through this again so that

2 you can tell us the ethnic affiliation of all these persons, the first

3 group of ten employees, then the next group of three, and also the

4 ethnicity of the person who signed this document.

5 A. Under number 1, Ibrahim Paunovic is a Muslim. Number 2, Ljubomir

6 Djuric, a Serb. Number 3, Zora Bilbija, I'm not sure whether she is a

7 Serb or a Croat. Muhamed Mujagic under number 4 is a Muslim. Tinka

8 Knezevic, number 5, a Serb lady. Six, Esad Pasagic, Muslim. Number 7,

9 Semsa Novakovic, a Muslim lady. Number 8, Mirzeta Halilovic, a Muslim

10 lady. Number 9, Gordana Manojlovic, a Serb. Number 10, Cedna Puric, a

11 Serb.

12 In the note, numbers 1, 2, and 3, they are all in the above table,

13 but I can repeat. Esad Pasagic is a Muslim. Number 2, Gordana Manojlovic

14 a Serb lady. And number 3, Cedna Puric, a Serb lady. And the signature

15 for the mining sector is a Muslim, Ibrahim Paunovic.

16 Q. Thank you. Can we please go on to the next document. First,

17 would you please put it on the ELMO.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is this document composed of two pages?

19 Correct?

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Can you please tell us whether this is a two-page document.

22 A. Yes, it's a two-page document.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be provisionally D60B.

24 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, is this a work plan as to who was

Page 11667

1 supposed to be at work over the next few days?

2 A. This was a report drawn up in the development sector on the 23rd

3 of April, 1992. And it's a list of employees who are to be at work from

4 the 27th of April to the 1st of May, 1992. So that this is actually a

5 plan for the work force for this period in the development sector,

6 geology.

7 Q. Excuse me, but in order to avoid going back again, but as soon as

8 you read out a name, could you please tell us the ethnicity if you know.

9 A. Yes. Geology, number 1, Zvonko Leskur, a Croat. Number 2,

10 Ljubinko Protic, a Serb. Number 3, Ruzica Mrdja, a Serb lady. Dubravko

11 Besic, number 4, a Muslim. Geographical land surveying, Sveto Kovacevic a

12 Serb. Design, Number 6, again, it's clearly visible. Andjelko Lovric, a

13 Croat. Investment construction, Dusan Milosevic, a Serb. And number 8,

14 Mirjana Pijak, I'm not sure what her ethnicity is. Technology: Number 9,

15 Idriz Crnic, a Muslim. Number 10, Marko Begic, a Croat. Number 11,

16 Jozefina Bujic, a Croatian lady. Organisers: 12, Tode Jakouljevic, a

17 Serb. 13, Bahra Kadic, a Muslim lady. 14, Zineta Sahuric, a Muslim

18 lady. 15, Tonka Asdukovic, a Croat lady.

19 Page 2 is a report of the development sector drawn up on the 30th

20 of April, 1992. And it's a list of employees who were present at work on

21 the 30th of April, 1992. Geology --

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we need not go through this entire

23 document because the names primarily are repeated. We have just

24 additional names, and it would call for an explanation why on this 30th of

25 April, there were more people at work than planned. If you could, when

Page 11668

1 comparing both documents, give us the explanation of -- this explanation

2 and the additional names. So, for example, under geology, you will find

3 number 5 and 6 in addition. Number 8 -- number 7 in addition.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, would you please take the document so that you can

6 compare both pages, the previous page containing the plan, and the page we

7 are looking at now, so that you can see which names are the same on both

8 lists. Geology, numbers 5 and 6 have been added.

9 A. It says Zeljko Ljustina, a Croat. And 6, Petar Balaban, a Serb.

10 I assume that they reported to work on that day in spite of the plan.

11 Zeljko Ljustina is a geologist, and Petar Balaban is a driver. I assume

12 that they went to look at the field, the well. Mustafa, a Muslim, Mustafa

13 Dzafic, a Muslim, geodetics, he reported for work I assume because he was

14 to survey the existing excavation sites, and he was a land surveyor. This

15 is done every month.

16 Q. Would you now please take the next document. How many pages does

17 the document on the ELMO have?

18 A. I apologise. This is a three-page document.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Provisionally marked D61B.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Would you please explain what this document is about.

22 A. This document was drawn up in the development sector, and it's a

23 list of employees who will not be working in May.

24 Q. We'll go through it again in the same way. So will you please

25 read the name and tell us the ethnicity and then the reason.

Page 11669

1 A. Geological service: Marko Iveljic, from the 5th of May to the

2 30th of May -- Marko Iveljic who is a Croat, from the 5th of May to the

3 30th of May, annual leave and paid leave for part of the time. Number 2,

4 Branko Glusac, a Serb. From the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid

5 leave. Miroslava Spasovic, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May -- I

6 apologise. Miroslava Spasovic, a Serb lady, from the 5th of May to the

7 30th of May on annual leave and part of the time on paid leave. Miroslava

8 Batoz, a Serb lady, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave.

9 Ranko Cvijic, a Serb, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, military

10 exercise.

11 Milena Tanasic, a Serb lady, and now, the dates are all repeated

12 from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave. Jasna Gligic, a

13 Croatian lady, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave. Pero

14 Balaban, a Serb, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May on paid leave.

15 Branislav Blazic, a Serb, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May on paid

16 leave. Vladimir Razbusek, a Croat, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May

17 on paid leave. Mersija Besirovic a Muslim lady, from the 5th of May to

18 the 30th of May, paid leave. Number 12 Mladena Kesic, from the 5th of May

19 to the 30th of May, paid leave. Svjetlana Sinanovic, a Serb lady, from

20 the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave.

21 14, Stepica Iveljic, a Croat lady, from the 5th of May to the 30th

22 of May, paid leave. 15, Alma Muranovic, a Muslim lady, on sick leave.

23 16, Ante Zunic, a Croat, from the 5th of May until the 30th of May on paid

24 leave. 17, Muhamed Hadzic, a Muslim, from the 5th of May to the 30th May,

25 paid leave. 18, Ljilja Dobras, a Serb lady, from the 5th of May to the

Page 11670

1 30th of May, paid leave. 19, Ahmed Mujagic, a Muslim, from the 5th of May

2 to the 30th of May, paid leave. Number 20, Mugdim Islamovic, a Muslim,

3 from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave. 21, Bojan Ecim, a

4 Serb, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave. 22, Zeljko

5 Ljustina, a Croat, on completion of his task to demolish the bunker, paid

6 leave.

7 I have to clarify this. I mean, the demolition of the bunker.

8 The old Ljubija plant had a bunker for loading ore. And this was made of

9 wood, which was in use until the 1960s. For lack of maintenance, it was

10 in danger of collapsing and falling across the railway tracks of the

11 railway station in Ljubija. That's why it says "on completion of this

12 task."

13 The investment construction service, 1 --

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just interrupt, if the parties agree, we

15 can, I believe, omit to read out the following names. I think we all can

16 agree that we find a list of names composed of all different ethnicities

17 we can find in the third column the dates, the fourth column the reasons

18 why they are not present. It can also be agreed, so it need not be read

19 out save the last three lines on page 3.

20 Prosecution, any objections?

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

23 If you would be so kind and read out on page 3 the last three

24 lines.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Due to the lack of the blueprint

Page 11671












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 11671 to 11680.













Page 11681

1 paper, especially in the mining design service, but also in other

2 services, the majority of tasks which were started in April could not be

3 completed. The problem persisted in May."

4 The head of the development sector reports on the lack of - I

5 would call it production material for their work. This is the blueprint

6 paper on which land surveying document are printed, the mining plans and

7 similar things. So it says here that the problem is -- predominantly can

8 be felt in the mining design.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Marjanovic.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before leaving this document, may the original

12 please be shown to the Prosecution and to the Judges.

13 I think we can agree that we have a document before us not signed

14 and bearing no date. Agreed?

15 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Maybe we could ask the witness to explain.


17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps I could just note, I think the transcript

18 should reflect the original document shows what I know as White Out. Some

19 names have been corrected with a correction fluid.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think before admission into evidence, we have

21 to go through the same procedure we did with the Prosecution document.

22 Whenever there is a doubt, we would need either the original be presented

23 to the Registrar or we have a colour copy from these documents.

24 Once again the question, if you could be so kind and give an

25 explanation why this document doesn't bear a signature and no date.

Page 11682

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the director of development

2 sector until 1989. And I received this document from my colleagues, from

3 my colleague that I worked with. This document is original, and believe

4 me, I didn't insist on the document being signed by anybody.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The question is merely based on the fact that

6 other documents that have been read out in the past we found either in

7 part a signature or, another document, a stamp and signature. But here,

8 it's only for the record we can't find a stamp and we can't find a

9 signature. It's the same as we had it in the past with other documents

10 tendered by the Prosecution. But may the document please be handed --

11 given back to the registry. Thank you.

12 So please continue with what shall be the next document.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Marjanovic --

15 A. The next document.

16 Q. I apologise. Before we continue --

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be a three-page document and be

18 provisionally marked D62B. This is a document of the 5th of May with the

19 registration number 45/92. So please proceed.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document was drawn up in the

22 sector for market and sales on the 5th of May, 1992. Under number 45/92,

23 this is the list of employees who were absent in the month of May of

24 1992. So this is the period between the 1st and the 5th of May, 1992.

25 Organisers: Zoran Denkic [phoen] --

Page 11683

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, can we proceed the same way that there's

2 an agreement that we have a list of names before us, all ethnicities

3 represented, then only one further column given the reasons for the

4 presence or absence. Could you please briefly explain in order to avoid

5 that we read out the entire list of names. For example, we can read

6 Placeni Dopust. What does it mean? It would be the same as previously,

7 that these persons were on paid leave. Correct?

8 If you could please answer and not only nodding, because on the

9 transcript, we can't see it.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The end of April, May, and later on

11 is the time when there is less and less work in the mine because there was

12 no longer delivery of iron ore to Zenica. At the time, the mine had 4.600

13 employees. And when an employee is on paid leave, that means that the

14 person is sent home and stays home and is paid for the time that he or she

15 is at home.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Can we agree that it is not necessary to

17 go through the list of all the names?

18 MR. LUKIC: [In English] We don't have any problems with that

19 proposal, only maybe the rest of the reasons for the absence might be

20 explained. And maybe it would be also interesting that there are Muslims

21 under military service, so that's why this these documents --

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. When there are additional reasons,

23 please. But then it might be helpful if you can concentrate on these

24 persons, if you have anything additional you regard as of relevance. And

25 no doubt, finally we need the "rekapitulacija" at the end of the document.

Page 11684

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can you please turn to page 2, Mr. Marjanovic. The Prijedor

3 warehouse, under 3, can you please read the name, give us the ethnic

4 background of the person, and the reason of absence.

5 A. Under 3, Hamdija Handzic, a Muslim, military drill, military

6 service.

7 Q. Number 11.

8 A. 11, Muhamed Delic, Muslim, military drill.

9 Q. At the bottom of this page, we see the warehouse, the incoming

10 goods, warehouse under 2.

11 A. Milorad Zdjelar, a Serb, military drill.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 And can you now read on page 3 the summary.

14 A. The total number of workers in marketing and sales, 112. Annual

15 leave, 3. Paid leave, 24. Military drill, 14. A total number of absent

16 employees, 41.

17 Q. Has this document been signed and certified by a stamp? And is

18 this a stamp of your company?

19 A. This is the stamp of the socially-owned company iron ore mine, the

20 stamp number 5 belonging to this sector, that is, to the head of the

21 sector. And the head of the sector was Nenad Marjanovic who also signed

22 this document.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And may we then have a look to the left-hand

24 part, to the distribution. Can you tell us what we can read there and

25 please add the name of the corresponding persons.

Page 11685

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Sent to:" One copy to the director

2 general, Ostoja Marjanovic. One copy to the payroll. That is the service

3 which dealt with the payment of salaries. There were a number of

4 employees in that service. I can't give you all of their names. One copy

5 to the personnel. In the personnel service, I believe that the head was

6 Munib Catic.

7 The next addressee is director. This was the sector for common

8 affairs. And the director of common affairs was Smail Zahirovic.

9 Q. Can you please give us the ethnic background of that gentleman.

10 A. He was a Muslim. Smail Zahirovic was the director of that

11 service, and he was a Muslim. One copied to all the heads of services

12 within the marketing and sales department, there are several services.

13 There are sales, purchase, there is a warehouse and so on and so forth. I

14 don't know the names of the heads of these services. And finally, files.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can we conclude D62B.

16 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I just have one more question to

17 Mr. Marjanovic regarding this document.

18 Q. [Interpretation] If you were to sign something, would the stamp be

19 the same? Would it be the same stamp with number 5 next to your name,

20 next to your signature?

21 A. If I was to sign any document, the stamp would bear number 1.

22 Q. Why would the stamp bear number 1?

23 A. The production floors had their own stamps. Sectors had their own

24 stamps, and each of those stamps bore a different number. In the

25 personnel, all the heads and directors of production plants and services

Page 11686

1 were assigned a stamp, and they had to sign for those stamps. According

2 to the book of rules, it was prescribed who is allowed to sign a certain

3 document and what stamp were they supposed to put next to their names.

4 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Marjanovic.

5 Does this document contain a handwritten page, or is that an

6 entirely different document?

7 A. This one-page document is the list of workers of the department

8 for personnel and legal affairs who were absent on the 4th of May, 1992.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just for a better understanding, we have

10 received a two-page document, one in handwriting, one in typewriting.

11 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I was confused also, Your Honour, but

12 obviously those are two documents. But we just stapled it that way.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So they should be severed and treated as two --

14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- different documents okay. Then the following

16 document would be provisionally marked D63B.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. LUKIC: Is it necessary, Your Honour, that the previous

19 document is shown to the Prosecution, the original one, and the Court?

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we shall go through all the documents

21 later when it comes to the admission in evidence, and let's decide what we

22 need in photocopy and colour copy.

23 Okay, let's continue with the document D63B.

24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic.

Page 11687

1 A. The list of the employees of the department for legal, personal,

2 and general affairs who were absent from work on the 4th of May, 1992. Of

3 the employees of the department for legal, personal, and general affairs

4 who were supposed to come to work, only Savo Bilbija, a commuter was from

5 Ljeskari was absent. The head of department, Munib Catic.

6 Q. Can you tell us, what is the ethnic background of Mr. Catic.

7 A. He is a Muslim.

8 Q. Has this document been signed and certified?

9 A. It has been certified by the stamp bearing number 1, and it has

10 been signed by Mr. Munib Catic.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Maybe I have misunderstood you, just for

12 clarification immediately, this stamp bears the number 1. Wouldn't it be

13 for you to sign a document bearing the stamp number 1?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The department for legal, personal,

15 and general affairs by its nature deals with all the legal affairs, and

16 this is the same stamp because I receive legal instruction from this

17 department, from Mr. Catic, and that is why he has the right to use this

18 stamp bearing number 1. The stamp actually is in his custody. He is the

19 one looking after that stamp.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it wouldn't be mandatory that when we find

21 your signature or another person's signature, that it would be combined

22 with stamp 1 or vice versa, when we find stamp number 1, different persons

23 could sign with this stamp. Correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the legal department which was

25 my advisor service for all the legal affairs is in charge of stamp number

Page 11688

1 1. I never signed a document without that document being first initialled

2 by him, so it is Mr. Munib Catic who had the right to use this stamp.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification. Let's move to

4 the next document.

5 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, I think that the witness said

6 something what's not in the transcript. I would like to ask him.


8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Did you say that the document which determines the use of stamps

10 exists in your former company? So there is a regulation on the use of

11 stamps.

12 A. In the legal affairs department, there is a document on the use of

13 stamps by all the heads of departments and production plants. And that

14 document also lists the stamp numbers.

15 Q. Thank you. Can you please show us the following document. And

16 can you also explain its contents. Obviously, this is a handwritten

17 document.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be provisionally, that we are not

19 confused, D64B.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one-page document is a report

21 provided by two different sectors or departments. One is the finance

22 department absent on the 4th of May, 1992. Under 1, Mirjana Jelisavac,

23 sick.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Can you please give us the ethnic background of all the persons.

Page 11689

1 A. Mirjana Jelisavac, a Serb lady, sick. Beisa Puskar, a Muslim

2 lady, sick. Esma Sarajlic, a Muslim lady, death in the family. Milan

3 Bundalo, a Serb, a sick child. Signed by Mirjana Supic, a Croat lady.

4 The department for economics and organisation. Absent on the 4th of May,

5 1992, Nusreta Talundzic, a Muslim lady. Signed by Mirjana Dejanovic, a

6 Serb lady.

7 Q. This document has not certified by any stamp. It has been signed,

8 though.

9 A. Yes, you're right, it hasn't been certified by stamps, but it has

10 been signed by the respective heads of the departments. And I'm sure that

11 these are their signatures.

12 Q. Thank you. I believe that we have now reached the last document.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I still have one in front of me, on Balaban

14 Slobodan in handwriting. This would be the next one.

15 MR. LUKIC: [In English] The last one, yes. The next one and the

16 last one.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be composed of one, two, three, four,

18 five pages. Correct?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a five-page document. And

20 the first page is the enclosure.

21 THE INTERPRETER: This is a cover letter, interpreter's

22 correction.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the addressee is Slobodan

24 Balaban.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be D65B. If we could limit ourself

Page 11690

1 to the first page, agreeing that we have a mixture of all -- persons from

2 all ethnic backgrounds, and only the additional questions or answers you

3 need from this document should be touched upon.

4 Can this be agreed? I can see no objection. If you could please

5 read out page number 1, the cover page, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Socially-owned company,

7 Ljubija/Prijedor. The department for general affairs, the head of

8 department number 129/92. Prijedor, 4th of May, 1992. To Slobodan

9 Balaban regarding list of employees. Here enclosed please find the list

10 of employees who will be on paid leave in May 1992. Head of department,

11 Professor Dusan Tubin. Signed and stamped.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Marjanovic. We have now finished with this

14 document.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, you have problems or you still feel

16 good or do you need a break?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I could have a break, I have a

18 problems with my eyes. I've had my glasses on for too long.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then let's have the break from now on until 10

20 minutes to 3.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 2.33 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 2.54 p.m.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. May I ask, everything fine

24 with you again? No problem?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, much better. Thank you.

Page 11691

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, I apologise for giving you such a hard time with

4 these documents. But you brought them along, so it's your fault actually.

5 The multiparty assembly of the municipality of Prijedor, until

6 when did it function?

7 A. I think it was until around the 20th or maybe the 15th or 16th of

8 May. I can't really be precise. I think it was held on the 16th of May,

9 the last session, I mean.

10 Q. Were you present at the session of the Prijedor Assembly Municipal

11 Assembly on the 16th of May, and what is this date connected with?

12 A. Oh, yes, now I'm sure the session was on the 16th of May in view

13 of the fact that this is liberation day in Prijedor, the day of the

14 liberation of Prijedor. The session was held in the large hall of the

15 Ljubija mine. I was not a member of the assembly, but I was with the

16 deputies who knew me, and most of them congratulated me on being appointed

17 director of the mine, although I had been appointed sometime before. But

18 they hadn't had an opportunity to congratulate me before that.

19 Q. Do you know who was at the head of the public accountancy service

20 in Prijedor after the takeover of power?

21 A. I can't tell you her full name because we all referred to her as

22 Hava. And I really don't know whether it was her first name or her last

23 name. But she was the managing director of the public accountancy

24 service.

25 Q. For the record, would you please repeat the lady's name and tell

Page 11692

1 us her ethnic background.

2 A. Her name was Hava, and she was a Muslim lady.

3 Q. Do you know Miro Turnusek?

4 A. Yes. He was my uncle, although he's much younger than I am. But

5 that's what he was. And he was the director of Mira, a biscuit factory

6 which was part of the Krus enterprise from Zagreb.

7 Q. And what was Mr. Turnesek's ethnic background? Was he -- did he

8 remain in his post after the takeover of power?

9 A. It would be hard for me to tell you what his ethnicity was. I

10 know that he was the son of people who immigrated from Czechoslovakia. I'm

11 almost sure of it. I wouldn't be able to tell you his ethnicity, but he

12 worked normally like everybody else.

13 Q. Were you ever present at the handover of any weapons?

14 A. It happened a little before these fatal events in Prijedor. It

15 was sometime between the 15th and the 20th of May. I can't be more

16 precise than that. I went to see the secretary for agriculture in the

17 Prijedor Municipal Assembly, Mr. Ranko Travar. And on my way in, I met an

18 acquaintance from Cereci, from those times, and it was a long time ago, so

19 I can't remember his name. And he was seeking to extend the deadline for

20 the return of weapons, and I heard them talking about this at the entrance

21 because they hadn't managed to complete that part of the job. And after

22 that, I didn't listen to them any more. So I wouldn't know what they

23 said.

24 Q. We are now in the period between the 30th of April and the 30th of

25 September, 1992. Do you know what regulations applied after the takeover

Page 11693

1 of power, especially legislation?

2 A. In the period between 1975 and 1979, I was a member of the

3 Executive Board of the assembly of the Prijedor Municipality. Although

4 I'm an engineer, I had to be familiar, at least in part, with these

5 regulations, this legislation, and all of the legislation was drawn up,

6 modelled on the previous legislation with a difference. The parties in

7 the municipality nominated the secretaries of various secretariats.

8 Q. Do you know when a state of war was declared in the Republika

9 Srpska?

10 A. In Republika Srpska, a state of war was declared in 1995.

11 Q. Can you describe for us an event connected to a conversation you

12 had with Simo Drljaca in connection with your driver.

13 A. When I was appointed the managing director of the mine, I changed

14 drivers. There was a Serb who was elderly, and I suggested that Faruk --

15 I'll remember his last name -- be appointed in his place. His last name

16 was Bajramovic. I apologise, I'm quite tired now, so my concentration is

17 not as good as it was. He was a wonderful man and a great friend of

18 mine. Almost throughout all of 1991, he performed this job.

19 Towards the end of May, I can't tell you the exact date, when we

20 had already started asking for passes in order to get to work, Simo

21 Drljaca showed me a document which I did not look at in great detail. And

22 he told me that at one of the sessions of the main board of the SDA, that

23 Faruk had been given the task of killing me. I couldn't believe that. I

24 went back to my office. I asked Faruk to come in, and I told him this.

25 He said: "Boss, you don't really think I could do that." And I'm sure

Page 11694

1 that he couldn't do that.

2 But in order not to create problems for him, in case the document

3 was true, and in order to avoid having to bear this burden myself, this

4 knowledge, we agreed mutually that he should go to the car repair unit and

5 do his work as a mechanic. We parted as friends. And later on, Faruk

6 went to(redacted). Before leaving, he came to see me and say goodbye.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Shouldn't the country be redacted from the

8 transcript?

9 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, so. Thank you. That's page 58, line

11 13.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Without repeating the name of the country to which this gentleman

14 went, can you tell us approximately when he left?

15 A. Faruk worked in the car repair service, and in his garage, he had

16 a mechanic workshop. And as far as I can remember, he worked until the

17 end of 1994.

18 Q. In 1992, you were the managing director of the largest company on

19 the territory of Prijedor Municipality. Holding the post you did, were

20 you able to influence in any way the decisions taken by the army?

21 A. The Ljubija mine really was the biggest company in Prijedor, with

22 a gross income of $120 million. I performed all my tasks according to the

23 statute of the company. And there was no way I was able to influence what

24 the army was doing.

25 Q. Would you tell us what happened in your family on the 3rd of July,

Page 11695

1 1992.

2 A. I had and still have two sons. My eldest son was then 18, and he

3 went to serve in the army at that time, which was the worst possible time

4 for that. That was the most difficult day of my life.

5 Q. Why?

6 A. I was unable to influence. There was no possibility of exerting

7 any influence to stop him going. Why? There was a state of chaos. The

8 war was already raging. Trenches had been dug. The dead were already

9 being buried. I sent my son -- rather, my son went into that chaos.

10 Q. Did you have a conflict with your wife because of this?

11 A. Well, of course. Like every other mother, she said: "Well, why

12 don't you try. Why don't you try to exert some influence to prevent

13 this?" She didn't know that this was not possible.

14 Q. You are still wearing your son's ID around your neck.

15 A. I do apologise. Fortunately, he is alive. The date is inscribed

16 here, the date that he left.

17 Q. Is his name on this plate?

18 A. Yes, it's an amulet. It has the date, the 3rd of July, and Dejan,

19 his name.

20 Q. Did your other son serve in the army as well?

21 A. Yes, he did. In 1994 and 1995.

22 Q. May we continue?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you, and if so, when did you hear that a Crisis Staff of the

25 Prijedor Municipal Assembly had been established?

Page 11696

1 A. I heard that it had been established, but I couldn't tell you the

2 exact date because it happened in the municipality. I wasn't in contact.

3 But I think it was after the 22nd or the 23rd of May. I'm not sure.

4 Q. Were you ever present at any of the meetings of the Crisis Staff?

5 A. No. I was never present at any meeting of the Crisis Staff.

6 Q. Were you ever present when members of the Crisis Staff were on

7 duty? Can you describe what these stints on duty were like?

8 A. Yes. On two or three occasions. These were nighttime stints of

9 duty. You would have to be on duty all night. And the office was in the

10 basement next to the centre for -- early warning information centre where

11 there were communications. I was there when Slavko Budimir was on duty,

12 Ranko Travar, Mr. Milomir Stakic, and Sidjak was also with us. I don't

13 know what his first name was, but he was not a member of the Crisis

14 Staff. The work of these people who were on duty amounted to

15 interventions when citizens reported that there was no water, that there

16 were problems with electricity, that there were problems to do with

17 utilities, that roads were blocked. And then they would intervene by

18 making a phone call to the service responsible for fixing whatever was

19 wrong.

20 Q. Did you ever see Simo Drljaca on duty in this way?

21 A. No. Well, I've mentioned the people who were there when I was

22 there. I certainly didn't see anyone in uniform, either Simo Drljaca or a

23 soldier or anybody like that.

24 Q. At that time, were Crisis Staffs being set up in companies?

25 A. I couldn't say that they were, but I can tell you that we had a

Page 11697

1 team in my company guarding the technology and facilities of the mine. We

2 didn't call it a Crisis Staff, but there was such a team consisting of 10

3 to 12 people who were assigned to certain areas since the facilities are

4 scattered. And it was their duty to watch over the machines and the

5 plants. And it was quite difficult to do that because it was risky to

6 travel at the time. There were already barricades and so on. But that's

7 how we tried to take care of our equipment. I don't know about other

8 companies, but in conversation with other managing directors, colleagues

9 of mine, I learned that they used approximately the same method.

10 Q. Did such bodies exist even before that, or were they introduced

11 because of the war?

12 A. Such bodies didn't exist before, but after all of these events,

13 because of the safety reasons, because of the protection of property, that

14 I have already mentioned, we have acted in this particular way. And I

15 believe that it was normal given the circumstances. Wherever and whenever

16 there is a hardship of some sort, the law provided for the setting up of

17 bodies called Crisis Staffs in cases of natural disasters.

18 Q. What was the name of the body in your company, a working team or

19 something like that? A task force?

20 A. It was, in simple terms, a task force or a working team.

21 Q. Did your task force and people in it manage to protect your

22 facilities from looting?

23 A. During the first stages, that was certainly one of their tasks.

24 Protection of these facilities is a very specific task. The Ljubija mine

25 had a technology of washing the iron ore which comprised huge facilities

Page 11698

1 for sludge sediments. And there were several millions of cubic metres of

2 sludge in those containers. We had to organise ourselves to protect the

3 dams. And let me just give you an example, the dam in Zune. In Ljubija,

4 there is an early warning system in Donja Ljubija in case the dam was

5 destroyed, a huge wave would have erased everything from the surface of

6 the earth within 5 or 6 minutes. So the population had to be alerted to

7 know that they had to move to the highest elevation. So that was the most

8 difficult task.

9 The second task by difficulty was the explosives depot. I issued

10 an order for these explosives to be handed over to the army. There is a

11 law that regulates that. As for the other facilities, there were people

12 who were locals, local population, who worked on the protection of the

13 facilities in their villages.

14 Q. To protect the dam, did you also distribute weapons to the guards

15 who were in charge of its protection?

16 A. Yes. My colleague Sakib Islamovic from Donja Ljubija, a Muslim

17 from Donja Ljubija, together with a secretary-general of the local commune

18 in Ljubija, I know her first name. Her first name was Saha. So together

19 with her, they agreed that some of the weapons that we had would be given

20 to the local commune who would assign people to replace our own guards at

21 the dam in Zune. We managed to preserve all the dams.

22 Q. That dam in Ljubija would have destroyed Donja Ljubija if it had

23 been destroyed and if it had burst. Can you tell us, what was the

24 population of Donja Ljubija? What was its ethnic composition?

25 A. Yes, Donja Ljubija would have received the initial impact, and

Page 11699

1 Donja Ljubija is predominantly Muslim with about 90 per cent Muslim

2 population. But after that, the next village would be Ljeskare with mixed

3 population, Croats and Serbs and Muslims.

4 Q. Once again, can you repeat the name of the lady who was the

5 secretary-general of the local commune and with whom you agreed the

6 distribution of arms, and can you also tell us what was her ethnic

7 background?

8 A. Her name was Saha, and she was a Muslim, a wonderful, wonderful

9 lady.

10 Q. Did you hear of the incident in Hambarine, and where were you at

11 that time?

12 A. I don't remember the date of the incident in Hambarine. I believe

13 that it was sometime between the 20th and the 23rd of May. On that day, I

14 was in Bosanski Novi. I was on my way back home, and I heard about the

15 conflict that had taken place. I remember the approximate date because I

16 was supposed to go to Spain to the World Congress of Mining, and obviously

17 I didn't go.

18 Q. What did you hear about the shooting there? Who was shooting at

19 whom, what was the demand in question? Can you explain? Can you give us

20 some more details.

21 A. Oh, I can just tell you what I heard from my neighbours. There

22 was the killing of reservists at the checkpoint in Hambarine. I believe

23 there were several wounded as well. And for a certain period of time, the

24 dead bodies were just lying there and access was denied to them. And

25 later on, the army took over and dealt with the whole thing in military,

Page 11700

1 way so to say.

2 Q. Do you know who was it who asked for the perpetrators or the

3 weapons to be handed over? What did you hear?

4 A. I heard that it was the army who insisted on the surrender of the

5 perpetrators. And they also said that nothing would happen. The

6 ultimatum was rejected. I believe that at the time the commander was

7 Zeljaja, the commander of the garrison. I believe his name was Radmilo

8 Zeljaja.

9 Q. Do you know the name of the persons whose surrender was asked for,

10 was demanded?

11 A. I don't remember. I can't remember. But I know he was a

12 policeman in Ljubija. I'm tired. If I wasn't, I believe I could

13 remember, but I don't want to waste any of your time.

14 Q. You're right. Let's move on.

15 The next incident was in Kozarac on the other side of Prijedor.

16 Did any of the mine equipment went missing or was it used at the

17 checkpoint?

18 A. I'll try and explain what I saw and then what I subsequently

19 heard. On the Prijedor/Banja Luka Road in the area of Kozarusa, a trailer

20 was set on the road to block the traffic. Behind the petrol station at

21 the crossroads to Kozarac, there was a container which was taken from the

22 central workshop of the Ljubija mine without the approval of relevant

23 services there. And further on towards the east, towards Banja Luka, I

24 don't know whether there were any other obstacles. But I heard that a

25 military convoy was headed from Banja Luka to Prijedor, and they asked for

Page 11701

1 the obstacles to be removed. And I also heard that a soldier had been

2 killed, and then all hell broke loose.

3 Q. Who from the Territorial Defence of Kozarac asked for the

4 obstacles to be removed?

5 A. Not only in the area of Kozarac, but there are also barricades in

6 other areas or villages, so to say. People organised themselves. They

7 put up defence and inventions and suggestions came from the Crisis Staff

8 for the obstacles could be removed so that the traffic could start moving

9 freely. And in most cases, it bore fruit. But in this case, it was

10 fruitless. These attempts were fruitless.

11 Q. Before the arrival of this military convoy, did the army also

12 issue an ultimatum for barricades to be removed from that Banja

13 Luka/Prijedor Road?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. After the conflict in Kozarac, the facilities in Omarska -- your

16 facilities in Omarska were taken and occupied. What can you tell us about

17 the way this happened?

18 A. The director of Omarska was Dusko Vlacina. He was director of the

19 production plant there. And the organisation of watching the facilities

20 in Omarska was under his authority. I learned a few days after the

21 incident in Kozarac that the army and the police had forcibly entered the

22 facilities in Omarska.

23 Q. Who was it who informed you about the forcible entry into these

24 facilities?

25 A. There were already stories in town. I didn't believe those

Page 11702

1 stories. But people who were in charge of providing security in Omarska

2 informed me. I can't remember their names. Those are security guards.

3 It wasn't Mr. Vlacina who informed me about that.

4 Q. Did you ever see a piece of paper, a document, that would justify

5 the takeover of facilities in Omarska?

6 A. At that time, I did not see any piece of document that would came

7 to me. Any such piece of paper would have been filed and recorded. The

8 first time I saw such a piece of paper was yesterday evening. You showed

9 it to me.

10 Q. Before this incident, when was it the last time you visited the

11 facilities in Omarska?

12 A. In my capacity as a director, I didn't need to make rounds of the

13 facilities. From time to time, I would go to familiarise myself with

14 them. I believe it was in 1991 when I went to the local commune of

15 Omarska. There was something with the water supply there that I needed to

16 inspect. And that's when I also made rounds of the mine facilities. And

17 after the -- all the misfortunate events, I was again in the Omarska plant

18 at the beginning of 1996.

19 Q. From the moment when the facilities were taken over, could you in

20 any way influence the developments at that site?

21 A. Firstly, let me tell you that there was no way for me to do

22 anything, to prevent these things. I'm afraid that at that -- that if I

23 had received a document at that time, I would have made an attempt to

24 prevent these things from happening. And I frankly don't know what would

25 have happened to me.

Page 11703

1 Q. Did you go to Simo Drljaca about this, about a friend of yours?

2 A. I had to go to the public security centre to be issued passes for

3 the free movement of my employees. My friend, the -- my --

4 Q. Can you explain the word.

5 A. So this gentleman was my brother-in-law's brother. The two of us

6 married two sisters. So I tried to intervene with Simo Drljaca. I asked

7 him to release one gentleman who was very popular in Prijedor, who was a

8 private entrepreneur. The answer was yes, he could be released, but only

9 if I accepted to take his place.

10 Q. What is the name of the gentleman?

11 A. Nikola Matanovic, a Croat. When I received this answer from Simo

12 Drljaca, obviously I didn't know what to do. I don't know what to say to

13 this.

14 Q. But is Mr. Matanovic still alive today?

15 A. Yes, he survived Omarska. I believe that later on, he went

16 abroad, and he returned. And I think that he currently resides either in

17 Vojnic or in Glina.

18 Q. Did Simo Drljaca also threaten to hang you?

19 A. Yes. I'll try to give you the reasons why this happened. A young

20 man from the reserve police force was wounded in the spine, and he

21 couldn't walk. And Simo asked the mine to provide this young man with a

22 big house. I refused to do that because there were a number of such

23 cases, and the house in question was unsuitable for somebody who was in a

24 wheelchair. My idea was to give him a three-room flat in Pecani which

25 would be adapted to suit the needs of that young man whose name was

Page 11704

1 Dejan. And then Simo told me he would have me hanged, and he immediately

2 sent the police who seized my Mercedes, the Mercedes car that I used for

3 official purposes. Obviously he didn't have me hanged because I'm still

4 here. So he didn't do what he threatened he would.

5 Q. After all this, what was your personal relationship with

6 Simo Drljaca?

7 A. I didn't know Simo Drljaca before these events, before the 30th of

8 April. And since I was duty bound to go and fetch these passes, I got to

9 meet him. At first, he looked absolutely normal to me. As the events

10 developed, he proved to be absolutely unsuitable for any sort of

11 communication. He was arrogant in his dealings with everybody. And we

12 never struck even an ounce of friendship after these events on the 20th or

13 the 25th of May.

14 Q. At that time, between the end of May and the end of August, what

15 did you know about the events which were taking place within your compound

16 in Omarska?

17 A. This was called investigation centre. There were all sorts of

18 stories about this place. I believe that some of these stories were

19 correct; some of them were false. There were some false statements and

20 some truthful statements. But I am sure - I was then and I am now - that

21 nothing good was happening up there. I received information that up

22 there, there were some of my colleagues who had previously worked with me

23 in the mine who had been my associates, for example, Sakib Islamovic was

24 released after somebody from Belgrade put up a good word for him. He now

25 works in Zenica and lives in Prijedor. There were others from the mine.

Page 11705

1 What was really going on there, I didn't know then. I don't know now.

2 I've never had any details on what was going on there.

3 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Sorry, Your Honour.

4 Q. [Interpretation] At that time, was the so-called work obligation

5 introduced, and if it was, do you know when?

6 A. The work obligation was introduced -- I don't know exactly when,

7 but it was at the very beginning of June. I believe that it coincided

8 with the introduction of a curfew in Prijedor. After that, for a long

9 period of time, people were asked to subscribe to this work obligation.

10 The procedure in the mine was as follows: The heads of various sectors

11 would put up -- would draw up lists of people that they needed for

12 providing security facilities and equipment. I would receive those lists,

13 and I would send them to the secretariat for national defence. And it was

14 the secretariat who approved those lists, who approved the work obligation

15 for the people on those lists.

16 Q. Were there a number of people absent from the company because they

17 were mobilised there? They were members of the army?

18 A. According to my estimate, given the fact that the JNA also

19 recruited people from Prijedor and those people were also sent to

20 Slavonia, in the first part of June, over 30 per cent of the work force of

21 the mine were militarily engaged. A vast majority were at home on

22 standby. During the month of June, I asked people to call in so that we

23 could compile their lists. In later stages, over 90 per cent of the total

24 work force of the mine were militarily engaged. The only persons remained

25 working were women and myself.

Page 11706

1 Q. You said that after the takeover, people mostly remained working

2 in the company. When I said "working," some of them were on annual leave,

3 some were on sick leave, some reported for work. When was it that people

4 stopped coming to work on a large scale?

5 A. After the events which took place in Kozarac, it became impossible

6 to have a good enough insight into the status of the work force. The mine

7 stopped delivering the ore to Zenica, so all we had to do in the mine was

8 maintaining the surface excavation site and pumping water to prevent

9 flooding. That was all we had to do. So the work load was significantly

10 reduced.

11 Q. The work load was obviously reduced due to the previous events

12 that had taken place. But did Muslims and Croats stop turning up for work

13 after the attack on Prijedor?

14 A. After the attack on Prijedor on the 30th of May, 1992, not only

15 did they fail to turn up for work, nobody came to work except for the team

16 that I had set up. At that time, for my own personal security reasons, I

17 also carried a pistol, and I had a security guard escorting me at all

18 times.

19 Later on, during the month of June, a lot of people moved from

20 Prijedor. They were mostly Muslims and Croats. Therefore, obviously,

21 they couldn't come to work. And I have to mention another thing before I

22 forget. There was no way for me to establish the real status of the work

23 force. I believe that this happened sometime in July, but I can't be

24 sure. I drew up a document firing all those who had failed to turn up for

25 work, not only Croats and Muslims but everybody. And this document also

Page 11707

1 provided for the possibility for them to appeal. A number of workers of

2 heard that, and then we were able to establish the approximate status of

3 the work force which enabled us to continue paying salaries, to continue

4 paying contributions into various funds, to contribute putting shifts

5 together and so on and so forth.

6 Q. Do you remember if there was a curfew introduced in Prijedor

7 Municipality?

8 A. Yes, it was introduced. If my memory serves me well, this

9 happened in late May and the curfew was in place until the end of June.

10 And again, if my memory serves me well, the curfew was between 2200 hours

11 and 6.00 in the morning.

12 Q. Your building is across the road from the MUP building in

13 Prijedor. Correct?

14 A. Yes. The headquarters of the Ljubija mine is in Mosa Pijade

15 Street Number 1. And the MUP building is across the street, almost at

16 right angles. From my office, one could see the entrance into the MUP

17 building and the front facade of that building. At that time, during the

18 month of June, I noticed and I saw a number of people, mostly women,

19 standing in front of the MUP building. Later on, I found out that they

20 had applied for departure documents.

21 Q. From your window, did you ever see people in that line being ill

22 treated by anybody?

23 A. No, I didn't see that. I think that this would have been

24 impossible. Those were predominantly women in the line. There were a few

25 men as well, but predominantly women who were standing in that long line

Page 11708

1 waiting to enter the MUP building and to obtain the documents of some

2 sort. I don't know what documents they were applying for. But in any

3 case, those were the documents enabling them to leave Prijedor.

4 Q. I have to ask you, although one may draw a conclusion from your

5 previous answer, did you ever see anybody in that line of people being

6 killed by somebody?

7 A. No, not at all. Even if I had not been looking, I would have

8 heard because it is very close to my building, some 30 metres away from my

9 building. So I would have heard some sort of a sound, and I'm sure that I

10 never heard anything.

11 Q. Did you see anybody having been taken away by the police from that

12 line? Or did you ever hear of anybody from that line being taken away by

13 the police or arrested?

14 A. No. Never. I didn't hear of anybody from that line having been

15 arrested. I didn't hear that; I didn't see it either.

16 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I think that the technical booth has

17 ready one video. It wouldn't last long, but we would like to show the

18 witness that clip.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That should be no problem. If we can get the

20 green light from the video booth. Yes, I can see it's confirmed. So

21 please --

22 MR. LUKIC: It's Exhibit Number S7.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: S7. So it may be started.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. LUKIC: Stop.

Page 11709

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, do you recognise -- not me, but

2 somebody else on this picture on this frame of the video from the meeting?

3 A. Yes, I do. In the central part, I recognise Dr. Milomir Stakic.,

4 Slavko Budimir. To the left, I think it's Kovacevic, Milan Kovacevic.

5 Then on the right-hand side, you can see part of someone's head. I think

6 that's Simo Drljaca. On the opposite side, Mandic, I think his first name

7 was Bosko. Those are the people I recognise.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the transcript, we are now with 11:36:30:05.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, when the video starts again, would you tell us

11 when to stop, please.

12 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I would ask the booth to rewind the tape

13 so we can start a few seconds before.

14 [Videotape played]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now. Now can we stop now. Now it's

16 clearer, the picture is clearer. Let me repeat. In the central part is

17 Mr. Milomir Stakic. Next to him on his left-hand side is Slavko Budimir.

18 On his right-hand side is Simo Drljaca. The first man on the left-hand

19 side of the picture is Milan Kovacevic. And let me repeat, opposite him

20 is Bosko Mandic.

21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Can we move on, play the tape, please.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop now.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the transcript we are now at 11:36:34:08.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first on the right-hand side of

Page 11710

1 this picture is Mr. Radmilo Zeljaja. Next to Mandic, on his right-hand

2 side, wearing a uniform, I think that's Dr. Macura.

3 We can go on now.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the transcript, 11:36:40:02.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first at the head of the table

8 is Simo, the president of the SDS.


10 Q. Simo Miskovic?

11 A. Yes, Simo Miskovic. And next to him in uniform is Slobodan

12 Kuruzovic. We can go on now.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the witness wants the video to be

16 rewound a little bit.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Stop. 11:36:50:04.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the foreground behind Kovacevic

20 is the secretary of one of the secretariats in the municipality, and I

21 can't recall his name at the present. But it is him. It's his face.

22 I can't remember his name now, but I do know the man personally.

23 We can continue.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. On the right-hand side with a

Page 11711

1 pencil in his hand is Spiro Marmat.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Here 11:36:58:00.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Go on.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the foreground is Savanovic,

6 Dragan Savanovic.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 11:37:05:04.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I would now like to ask you whether you recognised yourself at

11 this meeting anywhere, in any of these pictures.

12 A. No. I mentioned the people I recognised. I think there were one

13 or two or three whom I don't know, but I didn't see myself.

14 Q. May we conclude, then, that you were not present at that meeting?

15 A. On the basis of this videoclip, no, I wasn't.

16 MR. LUKIC: [In English] We are done with the video for now,

17 thanks.

18 Q. [Interpretation] You said that you were a member of the Executive

19 Board in the 1970s.

20 A. Yes. I was a member of the Executive Board for mining from 1975

21 until 1979.

22 Q. In the 1990s, and you will tell me exactly when, you were the

23 president of the Executive Board of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly, or

24 the vice-president.

25 A. I was the vice-president of the Executive Board of the Prijedor

Page 11712

1 Municipal Assembly, but on a voluntary basis, from October 1993 until the

2 1st of August, 1994.

3 Q. Do you know to whom the Executive Board was responsible for its

4 work?

5 A. In its organisation and carrying out of its duties, it was the

6 assembly that appointed the Executive Board. And they submitted their

7 plan of work to the Municipal Assembly. It was then adopted by the

8 Municipal Assembly, and at the end of the year, they would have to submit

9 a report about their implementation of the plan. And they would also

10 submit this to the assembly. The assembly had the right to request

11 monthly reports or more frequent reports on the work of the Executive

12 Board. So let me conclude: Under all the relevant legislation of the

13 time following from the constitution and other legislation, the Executive

14 Board was exclusively responsible to the Municipal Assembly. This was

15 valid generally and it was also valid in Prijedor.

16 Q. Was the Executive Board responsible and did it submit reports to

17 all -- did it have any other kind of obligation to the president of the

18 Municipal Assembly?

19 A. No. No, it didn't. Because according to the statute of the

20 municipality, the competences were clearly defined as to how the

21 legislation was to be implemented, how the statute was to be implemented

22 also. So the Executive Board did not submit any reports to the president

23 of the assembly.

24 Q. To whom were the secretaries of the secretariats or the heads

25 responsible, the ones who were members of the Executive Board?

Page 11713

1 A. According to the then system, the heads were ex officio members of

2 the Executive Board, and they were responsible exclusively to the

3 Executive Board, that is, the chairperson of the Executive Board.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In order not to be confused and to have to come

5 back to this question, you mentioned "the then system." We are discussing

6 now what statute? To the best of your recollection, was it the statute

7 dating back to 1984, or was there ever a new statute adopted in 1991/1992

8 or later?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be very precise. I was

10 referring to the legislation based on the constitution of 1974 defining

11 local self-government. Of course, at the level of the Republic of Bosnia

12 and Herzegovina, the statute could be changed by the assembly on the

13 initiative of the Executive Board or any other political -- political

14 subject. But we had a statute at the time, but to be quite honest, I

15 don't know when it was adopted.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Maybe we have to come back to this issue later

17 on.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. At the time that you were president of the Executive Board, at

21 that time, was there a head of the municipality or was this post

22 introduced later on?

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't think the witness indicated he was

24 president of the Executive Board.


Page 11714

1 Q. Were you the vice-president of the Executive Board?

2 A. May I -- I was the vice-president of the Executive Board, but this

3 was on a voluntary basis, from October 1993 until the 1st of August,

4 1994. So that is clear now.

5 Q. Because of the legal system.

6 A. The institution of the mayor was introduced in Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina two years ago.

8 Q. So when you were the vice-president of the Executive Board, the

9 situation was the same as in 1992 when we did not have the post of mayor,

10 but only the Municipal Assembly as the legislative branch of government,

11 and the Executive Board as the executive branch?

12 A. Yes. The same principle applied when I was the vice-president of

13 the Executive Board. The legislative authorities, that was the assembly,

14 and the Executive Board, that was the executive branch. And the same

15 principle applied in 1988 and in 1990 and so on.

16 Q. At the time when you were a member of the Executive Board, and

17 when you were the vice-president of the Executive Board, was it possible

18 for the Executive Board to order or ban anything in relation to the army?

19 A. No, this was not possible because the army under the law on

20 national defence was a separate entity with its own hierarchy and chain of

21 command. And it was quite apart from the civilian authorities, the

22 civilian government. But not only that, the Ministry of the Interior did

23 not come under the competence of the Executive Board of the Prijedor

24 Municipal Assembly. According to their hierarchy, they were responsible

25 to a higher authority in Banja Luka and the people in Banja Luka were

Page 11715

1 responsible to a higher authority in Sarajevo. So there was no

2 possibility whatsoever for someone from the executive or legislative

3 branches of government, and I'm talking about the municipal level now, to

4 issue orders either to the MUP or to the army.

5 MR. LUKIC: [In English] We have now to go through some documents

6 again. And I think that the witness is pretty tired. And if you don't

7 mind, we break today five minutes before --

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We still have to discuss the admission into

9 evidence of two separate kinds of documents. This would be D57 through

10 D65.

11 THE REGISTRAR: D56, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No, I want to make a clear distinction between

13 D57 through D65 where we have a number of employees being either present

14 or absent for the one or other reason.

15 What is the intention? May I ask you, would you agree that the

16 originals you presented through the Defence to the Tribunal may stay with

17 the Registrar, with the Court, or do you want to have these originals back

18 when leaving hopefully during this week to your hometown?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no objection to the original

20 documents remaining with the Court because the SDS replaced me, dismissed

21 me in 1996, and I have no use for these documents. But I hope that you

22 will have a use for them.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you want to have copies for your personal

24 use, may it serve any purpose? One never knows in the future whether this

25 may be helpful or of assistance. Would this help you?

Page 11716

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would take the copies as a

2 keepsake. I'm sure that I will not need them any more, but they will

3 remind me of my former colleagues and friends.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I then ask Madam Registrar to take the

5 necessary steps to take copies of the originals. And then, may I ask the

6 Prosecution, are there objections to admit into evidence Documents D57

7 through D65B always?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: There's no objection, but I would point out in

9 fairness to the Defence, while the witness is here, that there has been no

10 testimony regarding D61B, nor does it appear on the document what year is

11 being referred to.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: To the best of my recollection, I made some

13 notes based on the testimony of the witness based on D61B. I think this

14 is clear. And this should be clear. And the witness even read out page 3

15 of this document, the last three lines. So this shouldn't be a problem.

16 In fact, one can't read 1992, but this would be a very of evaluation of

17 evidence. So in principle, there are no objections. Correct?

18 MR. LUKIC: Of course, we don't have any.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then these documents are admitted into evidence

20 under the numbers provisionally given. And please, in order to avoid

21 additional formal translation, I would like to ask Madam Registrar to make

22 reference to those portions on today's transcript where we can find that

23 what has been read out by the witness to the transcript. No doubt,

24 whenever a party or Judges later for what purpose soever need a clear and

25 proper translation, then we would come back to this issue.

Page 11717

1 Then, in addition, separate from this, we did not yet decide on

2 D56B. This was the alleged announcement to the people of Prijedor of the

3 30th of April, 1992, where the witness told us this morning that he

4 received this document the same day between 11.00 or 12.00 in the

5 morning. May I -- may it please the Prosecution be shown the original,

6 and then please for the Judges.

7 May I ask why on page 2, the words or the figures "01.05.1992."

8 Then "GOD." With a blue marker were redacted.

9 May the witness please be shown the original and one copy.

10 Would you please be so kind and give us an explanation why one

11 could read the 1st of May, 1992, on this document, page 2, and this was

12 later, blue-marked so it's not -- no longer legible.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was giving information in

14 Prijedor, and when I agreed to testify, I collected these documents from

15 my archives. And I wrote this date out of carelessness. This is a recent

16 date that I wrote on it. And when I realised what I did done, I crossed

17 it out.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When was it crossed out?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 15 days ago.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So did you provide two documents, a copy and the

21 original? Because on the copy, one, no doubt, can read "1st of May,

22 1992."

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I only provided the original.

24 Only the original copy to Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [In English] He thinks that he crossed it out, as you

Page 11718

1 can see it on a copy, and then it's blanked. So maybe you can clarify

2 that.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I would appreciate if the witness could tell

4 us. You can see on the copy that it's still legible. 1st of May, 1992.

5 And then on the original, it's blue-marked in a way that you can't any

6 longer read 1st of May, 1992.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Prijedor, when I was preparing

8 this document, I was careless. I thought that this was the end of the

9 document before I discovered that there was a third page. And I thought,

10 as I remember that it was the 1st of May, so at home, I crossed it out.

11 The marker is the same. And when we arrived here, I did it again on the

12 original in a blue pen. And as for this copy, I don't know how it was

13 made.

14 MR. LUKIC: We can explain the other part, because we copied and

15 bought back the original to the witness so he can follow further.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May -- we have to come back to this later. My

17 proposal is to admit both the original and one copy with the additional -1

18 as usual. May I ask the Prosecution, the time has run out as regards the

19 tapes.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry, the tape?

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The videotape. So we have to conclude as soon

22 as possible.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. No objection.

24 MR. LUKIC: No objection on our side either, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence under these -- under this

Page 11719

1 number. And the copy with an additional -1.

2 Any other issues to be discussed immediately? I only want to

3 invite the Prosecution, please, to be prepared to discuss tomorrow in the

4 beginning immediately the question of the videolink witnesses.

5 This concludes today's hearing. The trial stays adjourned until

6 tomorrow, 9.00.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

9 at 4.38 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

10 the 4th day of February, 2003,

11 at 9.00 a.m.