Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11748

1 Wednesday, 5 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.21 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning. Please be seated.

6 Before we call the case, may I ask Dr. Stakic in person, how do

7 you feel today, and are you able to follow the proceedings?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I can

9 say that I feel somewhat better than I did yesterday, but not altogether

10 well. As far as I can tell as a person and as a doctor, I believe that I

11 am just tired. I have been stressed for a long time, and I believe that a

12 rest of three to five days would help me. But in order to help this --

13 these proceedings and because the witnesses are here, I'll do my best and

14 I'll keep on going. And then we will have a few days off. And I believe

15 that during that period of time, I will be able to rest. I am very sorry

16 that because we have to work for the whole day, I don't get the chance to

17 go out to get some fresh air. I have problems with the diet, and as time

18 goes on, this accumulates and the weekend is not long enough to help me

19 recuperate.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this statement, Dr. Stakic. I'll

21 come back immediately to this question, but now the time is ripe to call

22 the case.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

24 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances, please.

Page 11749

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian with

2 Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the Defence, please.

4 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and John

5 Ostojic for the Defence.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. As the parties know, but also the

7 public should know, we had a 65 ter (i) meeting yesterday discussing a

8 long range of outstanding issues. I don't want to repeat what can be read

9 as soon as possible from the minutes, but you can see we started later

10 today, and this was due to the fact that we had some deliberations in the

11 Chamber. And a clear statement should be given in the direction of both

12 parties. The Judges of this Trial Chamber will no longer accept a policy

13 of obstruction as shown by both parties from the outset in this case. The

14 Chamber also in future will only be guided by the statute. The statute

15 demands that the Trial Chamber shall ensure that the trial is fair and

16 expeditious.

17 The conclusions: Yesterday, it was agreed that the Defence case

18 should be, as envisaged, concluded no later than the 21st of March, 2003.

19 However, we take into account that both parties do not appreciate all the

20 attempts to give additional time in this case for the Defence. I know the

21 underlying reasons, and I can understand the position of Dr. Stakic

22 himself, who has, no doubt, special problems emanating from the fact that

23 when a case is heard both in the morning and in the afternoon,

24 unfortunately the bureaucracy is not able to give you the possibility and

25 give you what is your right under the Rules, namely, one hour of movement

Page 11750

1 in the fresh air and to provide the necessary food for you. So therefore,

2 we take it -- we can't understand the position taken by the Prosecution,

3 but for the reasons given especially related to Dr. Stakic, we take it

4 that in future, in principle, there will be only hearing either in the

5 mornings or in the afternoons as of the 3rd of March only.

6 It was, however, agreed that we sit today and from the 17th to 21

7 February as previously scheduled. This will be in the morning and in the

8 first part of the afternoon. In the interest of the witnesses already

9 having arrived in The Hague and Dr. Stakic himself mentioned this, and I

10 appreciate this comment, in the interest of these witnesses, we'll try to

11 finalise the hearing of the witnesses during this week. But if this could

12 not be or would not be possibly, we would continue Monday, the 10th of

13 February as scheduled. But in any event, there will be no hearings

14 Tuesday, the 11th of February, the 12th of February, as previously fixed

15 as United Nations holidays, through the 14th of February, day of courtroom

16 maintenance. I hope this will facilitate your situation, Dr. Stakic.

17 The Defence announced that they would move for the hearing of up

18 to 24 witnesses under Rule 92 bis opposed to two witnesses being currently

19 under this rule on the witness list. Taking into account that the OTP has

20 a right to respond and presiding officer has to be appointed by the

21 Registrar of the Tribunal, for that purpose under Rule 92(B) and the

22 procedure under Rule 92 bis, preparation and implementation, will take a

23 lot of time, we hereby rearrange the deadline for this motion under 92 bis

24 from the 3rd of March to the 17th of February. Only this allows us to

25 continue as scheduled.

Page 11751

1 Just this morning, we received the motion on the appointment of a

2 presiding officer, but the order of the motion, no doubt, has to be the

3 following, that first we have a clear list of these witnesses to be heard

4 under Rule 92 bis. Then it's the right for the Prosecution to respond,

5 hopefully as soon as possible and practicable. And only then we can

6 continue with the question of the appointment on all the practical

7 measures to be taken, first of all, by the Registrar.

8 Furthermore, regarding the schedule, following rebuttal and

9 rejoinder, there will be first, as agreed yesterday, a day dedicated to

10 deliberations, as we did it before the 98 bis decision in order to direct

11 the parties to the core issues the Chamber as such has identified, be it

12 on legal issues, be it on factual issues. This will be then followed by

13 exchange of oral arguments. The final brief should arrive with the Bench

14 as soon as possible, but no later than Thursday, the 10th of April.

15 In the direction of the Prosecution, we deeply deplore the

16 approach taken by the Prosecution. From our position, it is not possible

17 to proceed in the same way as it was done in the past. And I know that

18 the addressee of my words is not present in the courtroom. I think no

19 Prosecutor in the entire world has the right to proceed, to continue the

20 Prosecution, knowing that a person presumed innocent will -- that there

21 will be no evidence enough or that in part incidents never will be proven

22 and even charges can no longer be continued.

23 To continue proceedings against a person whom the Prosecution

24 knows that they are no longer able to proceed under the Rules and not able

25 to establish the case could amount to an unfair treatment. Why this?

Page 11752

1 Because it demands from the Defence to cover all the charges, all the

2 incidents, and all the accidents described in the fourth amended

3 indictment. And I hope that the Prosecution is aware that in part they

4 can't prove some of these accusations, be it for legal reasons, be it for

5 factual reasons.

6 Therefore, it would be more than appropriate, and we hereby invite

7 de Novo, I don't know whether it's the fifth or the tenth time, the

8 Prosecution to do the necessary under the Rules, to slimline the case and

9 reduce it to that what really can be the outcome of the case, taking into

10 account the jurisprudence of this Tribunal. As mentioned in the statute,

11 we are mandated to ensure that the trial is not only fair, but also

12 expeditious. And the behaviour shown by the Prosecution in the past - and

13 once again, I apologise because the representative of the Prosecution

14 responsible for this is not in the moment in this courtroom - brings us in

15 a situation that, in fact, the Defence has to do more than necessary.

16 We only want to start this attempt to limit the relevant areas to

17 be covered by giving the judicial hint that the question, if so, why

18 Dr. Stakic decided to move to Belgrade is absolutely irrelevant for the

19 outcome of this case. Evidence related to this question will be no longer

20 admissible. And I hope we can continue and I hope that we will have more

21 and better cooperation with the Prosecution in the future. And this only

22 enables us to limit the area what is relevant for this case and only this

23 enables the Trial Chamber to do that what the Trial Chamber is mandated

24 for, a fair and expeditious trial. And but this right is not only the

25 right of Dr. Stakic, but also the right of other persons in the Detention

Page 11753

1 Unit spending there up to three years without a concrete date when their

2 case will start. We have to balance all these interests, and I hope that

3 in the future, there will be a better cooperation.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't know if Your Honour wishes us to respond or

5 not.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think in the interest of the waiting witness

7 and in the interest of all the witnesses, this should be done at a later

8 point of time when the parties had the possibility to rethink their

9 approach. This is a question related to both parties, but it's absolutely

10 necessary to rearrange the upcoming hearings. And in future, we will

11 concentrate that only relevant evidence will be heard in this courtroom.

12 That's in the interest of all the parties, and it's in the interest of the

13 other persons in the Detention Unit.

14 So whenever the parties believe it's appropriate, please let me

15 know, and then we'll discuss this in depth. Maybe it's appropriate to do

16 this after the break of next week.

17 For the witness today, and this is the only question we have

18 before us now, anything has to be said before we ask the witness to enter

19 the courtroom? I can't see anything. May I therefore ask the usher to

20 escort the witness into the courtroom.

21 Yesterday, we provisionally marked the documents D66 to D69. May

22 I ask the Prosecution, what about objections?

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: No objections.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Therefore admitted into evidence under these

25 numbers. The English version as "a"; the B/C/S version as "b."

Page 11754

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning. And thank you --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for your patience. I have to

5 apologise that you had to wait such a long time for unforeseeable reasons,

6 but let's hope that we can continue and maybe even conclude your

7 testimony.

8 So may I ask to continue with the examination.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Examined by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning to you, Mr. Marjanovic.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. I asked you yesterday whether you knew who supplied the petrol

16 station with fuel, with petrol, and who was in charge of the petrol

17 station in the summer of 1992. I think we have managed to clarify this

18 point. Now I'd like to ask you something about the kitchen. We started

19 talking about this. The kitchen was near part of your facilities in the

20 so-called Separacija, separation. In the summer of 1992, did your

21 enterprise supply this kitchen with the goods necessary for cooking meals,

22 meals that were distributed to the army and to detainees at the Omarska

23 investigation centre?

24 A. The kitchen at Omarska is part of the administration building.

25 The so-called iron ore mine complex, the separation is near the railway

Page 11755

1 station. When you enter the administration building, the kitchen is to

2 the left. And to the right, you have a flight of stairs leading to the

3 first floor of the administration building. I'm trying to prevent any

4 misunderstanding concerning the spatial disposition of these rooms, so

5 that's as far as the so-called separation area is concerned. The kitchen

6 was designed to cater for the shifts working at the iron ore mine. All

7 the goods needed to produce the meals, to cook the meals, were brought

8 there from the central storage in Prijedor.

9 Q. This kitchen near the administration building was also there

10 during the operation of the investigation centre, but do you know that

11 food was actually -- meals were actually not cooked in that particular

12 kitchen during the operation of the investigation centre?

13 A. I'm not aware of that. Essentially since the 20th something of

14 May, and after the momentous and unfortunate incidents that took place, I

15 had no relation to Omarska, and I simply don't know who supplied the

16 kitchen with the necessary goods nor who worked in the kitchen. I don't

17 know where the meals were prepared.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 I would like to ask you about events after September 1992. Do you

20 know anything about the attempts to remove Dr. Stakic from his position,

21 and do you know where those particular Municipal Assembly sessions were

22 held?

23 A. In earlier times, assembly sessions were held at the so-called

24 workers' council hall. That was in the headquarters of the Ljubija iron

25 ore mine. That's also where my offices were -- where my office was at

Page 11756

1 that period of time. That's on the ground floor of that building. And

2 this workers' council hall can seat about 250 people taking part in any of

3 the meetings taking place there. The huge capacity of this particular

4 hall is one of the reasons the meetings, the sessions, were held there.

5 As for the assembly, and I did know some of those people, they were

6 members of the SDS, and there was a belligerent group, a belligerent

7 faction there, a group of people who weren't happy with the assembly's

8 work up to that point. They weren't happy with the way Dr. Stakic led the

9 assembly, chaired the assembly. Dusan Kurnoga was among those people. He

10 was a member of that particular group. There was also a man called Sidjak

11 whose first name I can't remember. Another man, Zmijanjac, again, I can't

12 remember his first name. I think this group probably enjoyed the support

13 of the president of the SDS, Simo Miskovic. I can't recall the exact date

14 when this session took place in the hall. But I know that my director of

15 technical services was a member of the SDS, and he attended the meeting.

16 He would go in and out, but he attended part of the meeting. His name is

17 Slobodan Balaban.

18 He informed me that demands had been made for Dr. Stakic's

19 removal, but no consensus could be reached. And they decided to keep the

20 assembly in permanent ongoing session. So they stayed there for the whole

21 day and the following night. It was their opinion that they should take,

22 take over the MUP, the Ministry of the Interior. I don't know what the

23 reasons were for that, but I later found out that I, too, was to be

24 arrested in the cellar. I don't know what the final result of the session

25 was, how the session ended. But for a period of time following the

Page 11757

1 session, there were a number of removals taking place.

2 Q. When these removals were taking place, did members of this group

3 you've just told us about take up positions from which they had previously

4 removed people?

5 A. Precisely. Their main idea was that the SDS had power, but had no

6 money. It was for this reason that they wanted 12 managing directors of

7 state-owned enterprises removed from office. I was one of the people who

8 were blacklisted. In Prijedor, in the Energopetrol company, they had

9 Radomir Bursac removed and appointed Mr. Sidjak whom I have referred to a

10 moment ago. I can't remember his first name. At the post office, at the

11 post office company in Prijedor, they had Mr. Marko Pavic removed. This

12 was where they stopped. I have no idea why they decided to call it a day

13 at that point. But I do know that Mr. Sidjak, over the months that

14 followed, embezzled in some way or expropriated in Belgrade approximately

15 450.000 German marks. He was later convicted for that crime. I'm not

16 sure how long the sentence was, but he did spend time in prison.

17 Q. When this group took up their new positions, the positions of

18 previously held by people they removed from those very positions, did this

19 group manage to take over the MUP?

20 A. I think Simo Drljaca took up the position of the deputy -- I'm not

21 sure exactly what the position was officially called. But he was to be

22 the first man of the Republika Srpska MUP with headquarters at Bijeljina.

23 However, he was not replaced by Zmijanjac, as had been planned, but if I

24 remember correctly, the man who replaced him was Delic. I can't remember

25 Delic's first name. And I can't remember how long Delic stayed in that

Page 11758

1 position. I know that he was to return. I know that Simo Drljaca was at

2 a later point to return to his old position.

3 Q. When you say that Simo Drljaca left and took up position as a

4 deputy, did he go to Bijeljina at that time?

5 A. I think he was supposed to be based in Bijeljina, his office

6 should have been in Bijeljina. I have information that he spent quite

7 some time in Novi Sad. What was the reason for his stay in Novi Sad, I

8 really don't know. But he would turn up in Prijedor, too, and quite

9 often.

10 Q. Was that a promotion or a demotion for Simo Drljaca?

11 A. If a person is first the chief of the MUP of Prijedor and then

12 leaves to take up the position of a deputy or an assistant - I'm not sure

13 what the official title of the position was - well, that should be

14 considered a promotion.

15 Q. This group you referred to as belligerent or militant, the group

16 that had Dr. Stakic and some other people removed, did they ever succeed

17 in establishing any form of control over the police or the army?

18 A. In late 1993, when I became the vice-president of the Executive

19 Board, Mr. Kurnoga was still in his position as the president of the

20 municipality. My appointment -- I said that the one condition for my

21 appointment and my acceptance of that appointment was that Kurnoga

22 resign. The SDS leadership promised me this, but they never fulfilled

23 that promise. Therefore, I feel entitled to add a comment to your

24 question.

25 It is my opinion, and I am convinced, that regardless of the

Page 11759

1 militancy and arrogance of that group, there would have been no way for

2 them to give orders to either the army or the MUP for the simple reason

3 that the structure, according to the then-existing laws -- the MUP is

4 quite literally independent in terms of hierarchy, the chief of the

5 Prijedor MUP at that time would have answered to Banja Luka, that is, to

6 Bijeljina and vice versa. They were the commanders of the Prijedor MUP.

7 As for the army, they also worked according to the old laws and

8 regulations. In the former Yugoslavia, they were directly under the

9 command of the presidency, and in the Republika Srpska I assume the

10 situation was the same. They would have been under the command of the

11 presidency. And regardless of the fact that that group of lads wanted

12 radical change and more power for themselves, it is my submission that

13 they had no authority to issue any orders to the MUP or to the army.

14 Q. Another question: Please tell us, if you know, the army or the

15 police, did they get their salaries from the municipality or from the

16 republic or, in the case of the army, from the federative state -- federal

17 state prior to that period?

18 A. I'm certain about the army --

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Objection, Your Honour. Again, it's vague as to

20 time that we're talking about, and counsel said "prior to that period."

21 I'm not sure what period he's asking the witness about.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please rephrase your question

23 regarding the time.

24 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Before the creation of the army of Republika

Page 11760

1 Srpska, who paid the salaries of the military? Who did the military

2 receive their salaries from until the beginning of May 1992? And if you

3 know, could you please tell us after the beginning of May 1992, who did

4 the army receive their salaries from? And also, if you know about 1991,

5 1992, and later who the police received their salaries from.

6 A. Six questions in one. I'll try to deal with all of them. Please

7 excuse the boldness of my remark. I will try to give an answer as

8 accurate as I can. I am certain that the army was paid and supplied from

9 the budget of the former Yugoslavia or from the republic budget. They did

10 have a number of privileges for the same reason. That's prior to 1992.

11 The same system continued in 1992 -- 1991, 1992, 1993, and probably even

12 after that. I must point out in 1994, there was a situation that

13 represented a slight aberration from what I was telling you about. The

14 Executive Board in 1994 secured part of the budget, funds from part of the

15 budget, for the families of soldiers who had been on the front. I think

16 this can be traced in the documents of the Municipal Assembly.

17 As for the MUP, I don't think I can give you a precise answer. I

18 suppose that were probably paid from the budget, but I know that the MUP

19 was not paid from the municipal budget in 1994.

20 Q. We are coming to the end of my direct examination. I would now

21 like to ask you whether you know Dr. Stakic; when was it that you met him;

22 and can you please tell us how well you know him.

23 A. Yes, I know him. I know Dr. Stakic. I heard of him sometime in

24 1991 when the assembly -- the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor was being set

25 up, and I was wondering about the fact that somebody who was not known in

Page 11761

1 Prijedor would appear in the assembly. At that point in time, I didn't

2 know him. I had only heard that he was a doctor. But there were a number

3 of physicians in the political life at that time.

4 In late 1991 and early 1992, we finally met. I believe that at

5 that time, he was the vice-president of the Municipal Assembly of

6 Prijedor. To be honest, when I first went to see him, I expected somebody

7 stronger, somebody taller, and then I met somebody who was of my height,

8 and I'm not very tall, who was very pleasant. And later on, he told me

9 that he came from the family of Stakics who lived to the south of the

10 surface excavation ground in Omarska. And while I was the leader of the

11 project in Omarska from 1974 to 1979, we had to expropriate some land for

12 the disposal site in Javori.

13 And then I remembered the family that Dr. Stakic belonged to,

14 especially his father. I even think that his father is the same age as

15 me. We had some problems with the expropriation of the land from some of

16 the people there, but Dr. Stakic's father was really very good about

17 that. We didn't have any problems with him regardless of the fact that

18 this disposal site later on had to be moved partly to the land of the

19 Stakic family that hadn't been expropriated in the first stage. We had to

20 do that because of the weather conditions.

21 Q. I apologise. Thank you for the answer. But I just need

22 clarification. Did you expect to find a stronger or a more heavily built

23 man, or did you expect to see somebody who would be a stronger person in

24 terms of his personality? Did you expect a different, a stronger

25 personality, or just a strongly built person?

Page 11762

1 A. To be honest, during that period of time, people who appeared in

2 certain positions were behaving, I would say, with a degree of arrogance

3 and who were -- who had the traits of the person who couldn't control the

4 power that were given to them. That's how I also imagined I would find

5 Dr. Stakic. But I have already said that later on when I had to work with

6 him, and we did not have the opportunity to socialise a lot. But in any

7 case, I realised that he was just the opposite of all that.

8 Q. Did you ever see Dr. Stakic on television? Did you ever hear him

9 on a radio delivering a speech?

10 A. No, I didn't, never. I never heard him on radio or on

11 television. At least during the time when I listened to Radio Prijedor

12 and watched television, I don't know if he appeared outside the time when

13 I followed the media. I didn't see his interviews in Kozarski Vjesnik

14 because I don't read Kozarski Vjesnik.

15 Q. Why don't you read Kozarski Vjesnik, Mr. Marjanovic?

16 A. It is the Prijedor paper which, to my mind, does not have to be

17 correct. There is around it some journalists who are not responsible, who

18 are not really professionals in their work, and the paper that they

19 printed contained a lot of gossip, a lot of unverified information. So

20 there was a lack of professionalism. There was ignorance about the

21 subject matter that they were writing about. I'm not saying that all the

22 journalists were like that, but I believe the lady whose name is Jadranka

23 Recevic was an example of somebody who wrote interviews and articles under

24 the influence of alcohol. And she was not the only one there. That's why

25 I didn't read the Kozarski Vjesnik. And the only truth that could be

Page 11763

1 found in Kozarski Vjesnik was in obituaries on the last pages.

2 MR. LUKIC: Would the usher be so kind and show the witness

3 Exhibit Number S374, please. I think that the letters are too small for

4 the gentleman to read. So if the B/C/S version could be put on the ELMO

5 and enlarged so it would be able maybe to...

6 And, Your Honour, this exhibit is actually for a different article

7 But I would like the witness to read a new text with the name "The

8 production started in northern Tomasica." [Interpretation] "The

9 production started in northern Tomasica."

10 [In English] And it's on the bottom half on the right-hand side.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the transcript, date of this issue of the

12 newspaper would be?

13 MR. LUKIC: Would be August 14th, 1992.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, can you please move the paper the way it suits you

17 so that you are able to read it. Are you able to read this?

18 A. I'll try.

19 MR. LUKIC: Would it be better if I read and Mr. Marjanovic just

20 follows, Your Honour, if it's too hard for him?

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No problem. Please do so.

22 THE INTERPRETER: May it be noted that the interpreters do not

23 have that in the booth.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do we have another copy for the booth?

25 MR. LUKIC: It's on the screen, so they might follow on the screen

Page 11764

1 as well. And maybe the technical booth can have the whole body of the

2 text --

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: I am willing to give up my copy since I can't

4 understand it anyway. I think the B/C/S will be helpful. This is not I

5 presume on -- you can also have it -- if it's on the Defence 65 ter list,

6 we would have another copy.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's wait a minute until the booth has the

8 documents.

9 MR. LUKIC: I would like the technical booth just to zoom out a

10 bit. That's okay. I think -- a bit to zoom in. That's okay.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we can -- difficult to identify, but I

12 think the booths are ready. Yes, please proceed.

13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

14 Q. [Interpretation] "Good news from Ljubija. The production of iron

15 ore starts in Sjeverna Tomasica after a two-month interruption due to the

16 war operations. Heavy mechanisation is again working in Ljubija. Last

17 Friday, the excavation sites in Tomasica again produced the iron ore that

18 results in the production of quality dyes that have their application in

19 the production of varnishes and dyes.

20 "The activation of this mining production is of multifold

21 significance. It will meet the needs of the factory of natural iron

22 oxides which operates as a segment of the Ljubija mine, and it will enable

23 exports to the market of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Since the

24 payment transactions have still not been organised with the countries of

25 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, it is with a good reason that Ljubija

Page 11765

1 wishes for the barter deal to be clinched so that they can get oil in

2 return for their production. That would put in place the condition of the

3 production of a hundred tonnes of dyes for a larger export to the markets

4 of Germany.

5 "It is interesting that the management board and the experts of

6 our largest producer of iron ore do not want to stay just on the

7 production of iron ore and delivery of dyes. Since in the territory of

8 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there is no factory which

9 would produce the same range of products, the construction of the factory

10 of dyes in Busnovi would be a good business move. This is corroborated by

11 the fact that there are already facilities and infrastructure, but there's

12 no equipment which is lacking because of the lack of foreign currency.

13 But this problem can be solved. The sheet-based Hepra, a business partner

14 of the Ljubija mine is ready to give them the production line under

15 certain conditions, and this deal is now almost completed.

16 "This is not, however, the only investment programme of the

17 Ljubija mine, but we shall bring you more about that in the next issue of

18 Kozarski Vjesnik."

19 Q. I am going to read the last sentence to you once again. "However,

20 this is not the only investment project of the Ljubija mine, but we shall

21 bring you more about that in the next issue of Kozarski Vjesnik."

22 Was at the time northern Tomasica a part of the Ljubija mine? And

23 can you please tell us whether there was a transformation; and if there

24 was, when did it happen?

25 A. Can you please give me the date of this Kozarski Vjesnik.

Page 11766

1 Q. It was the 14th of August, 1992.

2 A. Thank you. I'll try to give you some more detail on this, given

3 the fact that what it says here is not correct. But I'll try and

4 explain. On the 1st of February, 1991, I became the CEO of the Ljubija

5 mine and I presented my programme of creating a holding company. That was

6 the reason why I was appointed, why I was chosen to be the CEO.

7 Throughout 1991, based on the data that I had from the Cajevec

8 factory Banja Luka which was incepted as a holding and of some other

9 companies, I believed that the solution of that kind was bad and I decided

10 that some parts of the Ljubija mine should be shared off, especially those

11 parts that could work independently and who -- which were able to appear

12 on the market with their range of products independently of the Ljubija

13 mine.

14 The Ferox factory in the eastern part of Tomasica started

15 producing in 1986 or 1987. And it was constructed as a joint venture with

16 Litostroj from Ljubljana, and it had Japanese technology. The reason why

17 it was constructed was the excavation site in the eastern part of Tomasica

18 in geological terms, it was a sedimented excavation site of homolytic iron

19 ore where the particles are -- homolytic particles were of micron size.

20 There were two variants of the dye, the yellow dye and the brown

21 dye. Such natural pigments are very rare anywhere in the world. And the

22 thickness and the amount of pigment was about 4 and a half million tonnes

23 in the eastern part of Tomasica. That's why the fabric was constructed,

24 and that's why it started producing with a capacity of 10.000 tonnes a

25 year. And it was one of the parts of the Ljubija iron ore mine. It sold

Page 11767

1 its product to the factories of varnishes and dyes as a filler.

2 We started to -- we tried to start the production of the black

3 pigment, but -- because we could sell it in Sweden and in Australia. So

4 the factory had a closed technology, they had a market, and they had raw

5 materials. That's why I decided that they should be made independent and

6 that they should be incepted as an independent economic subject and

7 registered in the commercial court. They left the Ljubija mine in early

8 1992, and this article, as you said, was printed in August. And I believe

9 that any comment would be superfluous, and it really illustrates the

10 professionalism of the journalist who authored this article -- actually,

11 the author didn't sign this article.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Marjanovic.

13 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we have 10 or 15 minutes, and if it would

14 be a convenient time for the break now.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, but before having the break, I have to

16 announce that the motion related to five witnesses to take their testimony

17 with the assistance of a videolink is granted in principle. A written

18 decision will follow immediately, just in order that the Registry can

19 already now take the necessary steps for preparing these videolinks. But

20 it shouldn't be forgotten that in case, be it the other party or be it the

21 Bench, has the impression that it would be necessary to hear the one or

22 the other witness as a live witness, there is still the option to come

23 back to this witness and hear this witness live.

24 As to the fact that the motion from 4 February, 2003, asking for

25 the appointment of a presiding officer under Rule 92 bis and that this

Page 11768

1 motion is called "urgent" and it calls for an instant or immediate answer,

2 and we have to point out that before we can decide on this, no doubt, we

3 need the names and the reasons for why you believe that those statements

4 would be those falling under Rule 90 bis(A) especially. The standard is,

5 of course, not as we can read it from your motion, that due to the fact

6 that the Court has admitted approximately 19 written statements offered by

7 the OTP pursuant to Rule 92 bis, it would follow from this that now the

8 same number of witnesses have to be admitted under 92 bis with their

9 statements in return. We are bound by Rule 92 bis, and we have to find

10 out whether or whether or not these witnesses fall in the purview of Rule

11 92 bis.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: If I could briefly respond, in order for us to

13 respond to the motion on 92 bis, we need to know what the statements are

14 going to say. And we -- at the moment, we don't have it. When the

15 Defence had to respond to our motions, we had written signed statements

16 from each of the witnesses.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this assistance. That's just what

18 I wanted to point out. Because the parametres can be found in Rule 92

19 bis(A), and we have not the slightest idea what the name and what should

20 be in the statement of these envisaged 24 witnesses.

21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. We'll use the next week to go in

22 the field and to finalise this part of our job. But if necessary, now, we

23 can provide some names and general topics.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We gave the deadline, and we stated "as soon as

25 possible," but no later than the 17th of February. So during this period

Page 11769

1 of time, I think it's not necessary to do the -- or to prepare the

2 statements and to announce all of the -- the contents of all of the

3 statements you expect to have from the witnesses. But if you could start

4 at least as there was an invitation from the side of the Prosecution

5 already in the past, you could proceed step by step. This would already

6 assist because you should be aware, when we receive your motion, including

7 the names and the factors necessary to decide whether or not it is

8 admissible under Rule 92 bis, it will take time for the Prosecution to

9 respond. It will take time for the Registrar to take the necessary

10 measures. And no doubt, it will take time to hear these witnesses and to

11 take the statements as foreseen under Rule 92 bis(B). So therefore, in

12 the moment, we can't decide on your motion from yesterday requesting the

13 appointment of a presiding officer because apparently this is the second

14 step and we expect the first step.

15 Nothing else has to be added in the moment. The trial stays

16 adjourned until 11.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

20 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like the usher to

22 show the witness exhibit marked S107, please.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask in the meantime, the Defence is

24 tendering the last article of Kozarski Vjesnik, because previously we only

25 admitted another article.

Page 11770

1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: From the same page.

3 Objections?

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: No objections.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then admitted as D70B. And it

6 should be mentioned in the list of exhibits that we can find the

7 translation on today's transcript.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, yesterday, or the day before yesterday, you

10 mentioned this document. This is a document allegedly signed by Simo

11 Drljaca. On the last page of this document, it says: "Delivered among

12 others also to the managing director of the iron ore mine Ljubija." We'll

13 go through this document, and you will tell us if this document was ever

14 delivered to you and if you are the person of whom it is stated here that

15 on the 30th of May, 1992, was the general manager of the Ljubija iron ore

16 mines.

17 Will you please read item 1.

18 A. "The provisional collection centre for persons captured in combat

19 or detained on the grounds of the security services operation, the

20 industrial compound of the Omarska mine strip mine shall serve as a

21 provisional collection centre for persons captured in combat or on the

22 grounds of the security services operation."

23 Q. Can you please read out number 7 now.

24 A. "The mine's management shall organise meals for investigators,

25 guards, and detainees according to norms established in agreement with the

Page 11771

1 quartermaster service. At the same time, the mine's management shall

2 organise the regular cleaning as well as maintenance of plumbing,

3 electrical fixtures, and other utilities. It shall also ensure other

4 kinds of logistical support for the work and stay of the given number of

5 persons on the given premises by imposing obligatory work on skilled

6 employees."

7 Q. My question was: If your company was in charge of organising the

8 meals, you said you did not supply anything for the preparation of these

9 meals?

10 A. It is my responsible submission that we didn't.

11 Q. Do you know if your workers were in charge of maintaining the

12 plumbing and electrical fixtures, and was it done pursuant to this

13 decision or in a different way?

14 A. This document bears the date 31st of May, 1992. I must say that

15 contacts with people in Omarska were becoming very infrequent during May

16 following the events in Kozarac. So my comments will refer to the period

17 preceding these events. The duties of people from the surroundings of the

18 mines, the reason we did this, is to make it easier for them to find

19 jobs. A number of people worked on maintaining the well and the water

20 well. Some people were maintenance workers on the pumps and the surface

21 excavations. There were people working as security officers, too. Excuse

22 me, can you please repeat the question.

23 This means I cannot make a claim to this effect simply because I

24 had no information. But I assume that they continued in their jobs.

25 Q. Item 8 reads: "The management shall without delay fence off the

Page 11772

1 compound around the management building with barbed wire, placing a

2 barrier on the road to Omarska, and shall also provide drinking water.

3 The guards shall prevent any unauthorised persons from approaching or

4 entering the collection centre in accordance with the official guard-duty

5 rules."

6 Do you know or did you hear whether this centre, this complex, was

7 ever surrounded with barbed wire?

8 A. No, I don't know, nor did I hear anything about that. Even after

9 1996 when I did go to Omarska, I saw no traces of anything like that. The

10 barrier, I don't see what the purpose of a barrier would have been because

11 there is a gate when you go from Omarska to the mine. There is a gate

12 through which you enter the mining complex.

13 Q. Do you know if this barrier was actually ever set up? Did you

14 ever see it?

15 A. No, I don't know.

16 Q. There are several other requests or orders here that were

17 purportedly delivered to the managers of the mines. However, items 10 and

18 14 also refer to the mine's management. It says that "The mine management

19 shall in collaboration with the chief of security and chief of security

20 services coordinators make available the maintenance and repair shops and

21 office space in collaboration with the security chief and security service

22 coordinators in the interests of greater efficiency should it prove

23 necessary."

24 And item 14: "The mine's managers and management shall select

25 reliable and qualified personnel for assignment to duties required of them

Page 11773

1 at the collection centre. They cannot replace them unless absolutely

2 necessary and with the approval of the public security station. The

3 management shall send a list of all appointed staff members to the public

4 security station in Prijedor without delay."

5 The question I would like to ask you, again, the last page and the

6 list of addressees, the list of people this document was allegedly

7 delivered to, number 6, the director of RZR Ljubija, does that mean you?

8 Are you the person under number 6?

9 A. That should seem obvious, but I could also say that I'm not

10 because my official title in that period was the president of the business

11 board of the Ljubija iron ore mines. But if it reads "Ljubija iron ore

12 mines," that is the complex association of associated labour, so that

13 would indicate that I was the person under number 6. But my comment, and

14 I say this with full responsibility, I have never seen this document and I

15 was not familiar with this document. Some days ago, when you showed the

16 document to me was the first time I laid eyes on it, and I believe I've

17 said this before.

18 If this had ever reached me, I don't think I would be here now to

19 testify before this Court.

20 Q. Why do you say that, that you would not be here now to testify?

21 A. I would not allow -- I wouldn't --

22 Q. Or would you have tried to prevent it?

23 A. No, I simply wouldn't have allowed it for that very reason. I

24 really don't know how the whole thing would have ended. Item 14 says a

25 lot about it. It's very eloquent. It says that the public security

Page 11774

1 station, if I understand right, insists on qualified and double-checked

2 workers and wants a list delivered. It is quite obvious that the public

3 security station took all the matters into their hands. I did not provide

4 any lists. And if this had been delivered to me, I'm absolutely certain

5 this would have been recorded in the protocol of the Ljubija iron ore

6 mines which was mandatory for our legal section. They would have had to

7 record this.

8 I'd like to comment on the last page, if I may. There's a

9 handwritten bit which says -- that's if I see right -- received on behalf

10 of Mica [as interpreted] iron ore mines and security. I'm not familiar

11 with either of these signatures. Obviously, my conclusion is that this

12 circulated from person to person privately and unofficially. This was not

13 officially delivered, which means that this decision could never have

14 reached me anyway.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry to interrupt. May I ask you, what stands

16 this abbreviation for M-u-i-c? You just read "received on behalf of Muic,

17 Muic."

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understand this correctly, the

19 handwriting reads: "Received on behalf of Mijic, iron ore mines." So you

20 asked me about the meaning of the word Mijic. Under number 1, you have

21 Crisis Staff, coordinators of the security services. And there you see

22 the last name Mijic, last name Mesic, and Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic.

23 So I suppose the handwriting part refers to this gentleman named Mijic.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And this Mr. Mijic, he was employed in the iron

25 ore mines at all, or do you know this person or a person with the name

Page 11775

1 Mijic?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say that Mr. Mijic was not

3 an employee of the iron ore mines if you look at this text, coordinators

4 of the security services, which means that he was an employee of the

5 security services. I do know a man, and I suppose this refers to him. I

6 know a man named Mijic who worked in the public security centre. I know

7 this man by sight. We didn't have any personal contact.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If I may -- it may be that a person works for

9 one institution and at the same time for another. To the best of your

10 recollection, was a Mr. Mijic employed within the iron ore mines company?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Speaking about the last name itself,

12 I cannot claim that there was not a single person named Mijic working at

13 the iron ore mines. We had 4.630 employees. But if we're talking about

14 the person who worked for the security services, if we're talking about

15 that particular person, then it is my submission that he was at no time

16 ever employed as a worker at the iron ore mines.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

18 The Prosecution has asked for the floor, please.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: I thought it might be helpful to Your Honours to

20 remind Your Honours that the evidence is that this document was seized

21 from the Prijedor police station, and also refer to the testimony of

22 Mr. Jankovic where Mr. Mijic is referred to.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We are aware of this. I think we should make

24 use of the witness before us, and I think that you are here that you can

25 testify to the best of your knowledge.

Page 11776

1 So please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember Mr. Mijic's first name?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. You said you never received this document, and you added had you

6 received this, you wouldn't be here to testify here today because you

7 would have stood up against it. Do you think someone would have killed

8 you for that?

9 A. I assume so. And the period of time I'm talking about, between

10 May and until the 5th or the 10th of June, within that period of time,

11 everything was possible. Nothing was to be ruled out. All the more

12 because - and I'm speaking about myself now - I was not really

13 Mr. Drljaca's favorite. He didn't like me that much, you know. I refused

14 to meet his requests concerning passes for the workers of the iron ore

15 mines.

16 Q. Did you not meet his requests concerning passes or did you not

17 meet any of his other requests aside from the requests concerning passes?

18 A. Sorry, I need to correct myself. I was obliged to meet his

19 requests concerning passes because there was maintenance work on the pumps

20 to be done as well as matters concerning the security guards at the iron

21 ore mines.

22 Q. Now, you did say this the first time around, but that's not what

23 the transcript reflected.

24 Briefly, before we conclude, I would like to ask you the

25 following: Do you know whether the president of the Municipal Assembly is

Page 11777

1 superior to the secretary of the Municipal Assembly?

2 A. I believe not. I am convinced not. The secretary is an official

3 functionary. He is elected by the assembly, and he is in charge of tasks

4 of legal nature as a secretary of the assembly for the assembly.

5 Q. The section for common or shared services of the Municipal

6 Assembly, are they subordinated to the secretary or do they have their own

7 chief?

8 A. I'll try to explain this. There was the secretariat for general

9 affairs, which also included staff such as drivers, secretaries, cleaning

10 ladies. There is another section which deals with legal matters. It's a

11 body of the assembly working on materials or requests, incoming requests,

12 from anyone, requests from the Executive Board, from state organs. I was

13 not, myself, president of the municipality, but I don't think that even

14 the secretary would have been directly subordinated to the president of

15 the Municipal Assembly. The president of the Municipal Assembly has no

16 authority to give any orders, even to any of the secretaries.

17 Q. You say you attended some of the duty sessions of the Crisis

18 Staff, but you also say that you never attended any of their meetings.

19 Did you ever at any single point during these duty sessions of the Crisis

20 Staff notice that they were receiving reports from the army, from the

21 police, or that they were issuing orders to the army or the police?

22 A. If I may please just have the screen blank so that I could join in

23 when the interpreters finish interpreting. Thank you.

24 I believe I did say before that I did attend several of these

25 so-called duty sessions in the Crisis Staff. I think I even explained

Page 11778

1 where the office was in which this took place. Perhaps I may add now that

2 people from the iron ore mines brought food in for those on duty. I would

3 be there between 8.00 and 11.00 or 12.00. I hardly ever stayed later than

4 that.

5 During that particular period, I am sure that those people were

6 not receiving any reports or giving any orders. I think I've said this

7 before, too. The nature of their work was civilian in the very sense of

8 the word. Citizens would come and complain about shortages of water,

9 electricity, utility problem, that sort of thing. I claim with full

10 responsibility that during the time I spent there, there were no incoming

11 reports or documents from the MUP or the army, nor did any people from the

12 MUP or the army ever come there.

13 Q. Could you draw any conclusions from the telephone calls and

14 conversations that people on duty were making if they had any contacts

15 with the army or the police?

16 A. It was a rather small office, so of course I did overhear

17 conversations of those present in the office. I'll give you one example,

18 just in order to illustrate this. I think Mr. Kovacevic was on duty, and

19 the party called. On the basis of his answer, I assumed that the question

20 was about water, about shortage of water, and if they had water at that

21 point. What he answered is: "Just open the spout and see if any water

22 comes out." If I was in a position to hear what he was saying, then of

23 course I would have been in a position to hear everyone else. For

24 example, Mr. Budimir when he was on duty. I heard no conversations at all

25 with either the army or the police.

Page 11779

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you very much, Mr. Marjanovic. This concludes

2 our examination-in-chief. Now you will be asked questions by my

3 colleagues from the Prosecution and after that by the Honourable Chamber.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Koumjian, please, you have the floor.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

7 Q. Sir, referring to the document that you were shown - we don't need

8 to put it back - about the Omarska mine, you indicated that if you had

9 seen that document, you probably would be dead. And I understand your

10 answer to be because you would not have allowed it. And your answer on

11 page 26 was "No, I simply wouldn't have allowed it."

12 Can you explain what would you have not allowed.

13 A. I would not have agreed with such a document. I would not have

14 approved this document, and I claim with full responsibility that things

15 would have happened in the same way despite my approval or disapproval.

16 But bearing in mind my relationship with Mr. Simo Drljaca who did not --

17 who could not take a refusal of an order, later on he threatened to hang

18 me. And this did not happen. And it was just my assumption. I didn't

19 say that for a fact, but I'm sure that I would not have agreed with a

20 request and the content of such a document.

21 Q. We'll come back to your relationship with Mr. Drljaca later. But

22 my question for you now, sir, is: What would you not have allowed? Is it

23 your testimony that you would not have allowed the facilities and

24 personnel that came under your supervision to take part in the Omarska

25 camp in the location where prisoners were detained?

Page 11780

1 A. Under normal circumstances, if one wanted to enter the compound of

2 the mine, one had to have the approval of the management of the mine. In

3 this case, I would have not given my approval for the things that are

4 indicated in this document. I would also have tried to protect my people

5 who were there. And again, I claim nobody ever asked me, I never saw this

6 document, and nobody ever gave me an opportunity to voice my protests

7 about that. If my memory serves me well, under item number 14, one could

8 read that the MUP had taken over the role of both the person issuing the

9 request and the person carrying out that request or following that

10 request.

11 Q. If I understand your testimony, sir, you're indicating that the

12 reason you did not oppose the use of the mine facilities and personnel was

13 because you never received this document, although you're listed as an

14 addressee? You never saw it before coming to The Hague this week. Is

15 that correct?

16 A. I didn't see the document, and my conclusion based on the document

17 as I have seen it now is what I have already said, that if I had received

18 the document at that time, I would have acted in the way I have told you I

19 would.

20 Q. Sir, didn't you testify that you were aware of the mine being

21 taken over by the army in May? Let me ask you: Weren't you aware in May

22 that the army did what you described as a takeover of the Omarska mine?

23 A. That was the end of May. I believe it was around 27th or the 28th

24 of May. I don't know the exact date. I once said that this had happened

25 at that time because of the events in Kozarac and other things, one could

Page 11781

1 not get to Omarska. I didn't go there. And I must add to that the fact

2 that in the work of the mine, the subordination of the head of every

3 particular plant is of all sorts. And at that time, the director of the

4 Omarska plant was Dusko Vlacina.

5 Q. Sir, are you denying that you were responsible as, in your

6 position as the CEO of Ljubija mines, for the facilities and for the

7 personnel of the Omarska mine, that they came under your supervision?

8 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, can my learned friend specify the time period.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it was quite clear the time period the

10 Prosecution is relating to in the moment. The witness himself spoke about

11 the 27 to 28th of May.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim with full responsibility

13 that after the events which took place in Kozarac, I did not have any

14 instruments at my disposal. I did not have any possibility to exert any

15 influence on what was going on in Omarska.


17 Q. Let's go to the period in April 1992. The Omarska facility fell

18 under your management. You were the top manager of the Omarska facility

19 and the other assets of the Ljubija mine company. Isn't that correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And you told us that you became aware from security guards, I

22 believe you told us - I'm looking for the page but I can't find it - that

23 the army and police had entered the facility in late May. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 11782

1 Q. Well, sir, at that time did you put your life on the line and

2 oppose the takeover of the Omarska mine in order to turn it into a camp

3 for the citizens of Prijedor?

4 A. I must say, and I have already said it a little while ago, that

5 during those misfortunate events, I did not have any instruments at my

6 disposal that would help me to do that. I was at home. I was looking

7 after my own family. As of the 27th or 28th of May up to 25th or 26th of

8 June.

9 Q. Sir, who did you complain to about the takeover of the assets of

10 the company that you were in charge of, if anyone?

11 A. I did not go to anybody because I repeat once again, I did not

12 have any instruments at my disposal that would help me do that.

13 Q. Sir, I want to take advantage of your experience and expertise

14 regarding mining in the Prijedor municipality, particularly I believe you

15 told us that you worked on the Omarska project for about five years. Is

16 that correct? And you are very familiar with that facility. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. I have stated here that I was the leader of the project Omarska

19 between 1974 and 1979. We were in charge of the design and the

20 feasibility study of Omarska. Maybe I can explain.

21 Q. Please.

22 A. The design first of all --

23 Q. I'm sorry, and if counsel or the Court feel it's necessary to

24 continue the explanation, but my question is really not regarding those

25 details, sir. I'm just asking, are you familiar -- in 1992, were you

Page 11783

1 familiar with the Omarska facility?

2 A. I have started my explanation about that, and this would have been

3 the answer to your question. Based on the design and the feasibility

4 study, the facilities are constructed, the final construction was after

5 the final design was drawn up. So yes, I do have a rough idea about what

6 the facilities in Omarska look like. I can tell you that there is a gate

7 on the left-hand side of the administrative building of the separation.

8 On the right-hand side, there are warehouses, and then there is a --

9 Q. Sir. Thank you. And I don't mean to interrupt you again, and I'm

10 sorry I did before. But we have photographs and are familiar with the

11 layout. Thank you for your answer.

12 Can you tell the Court why, based upon your knowledge of the

13 Omarska facility, why that would be a particularly suitable facility -

14 would you agree with me - particularly suitable facility for a prison

15 camp, especially for a camp where dead bodies would have to be disposed

16 of?

17 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour. The witness is asked to

18 speculate.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I briefly respond before the Court confers?


21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, this witness gave testimony about the

22 powers of the municipal president, the army, the police, which he has no

23 direct knowledge of. He is the owner of the mine. He's a mining expert.

24 So I'm asking him a question directly related to his expertise, not the

25 owner but the manager, excuse me.

Page 11784

1 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objection dismissed.


4 Q. Sir, based on your knowledge of Prijedor, Omarska, and the events

5 of 1992, why do you think the Omarska facility was chosen for the prisoner

6 camp?

7 A. You say that I am an expert in mining. I note that there is about

8 a hundred million tonnes of iron ore lying there, and as to your question

9 about the choice of that site, I can't really provide you with an answer.

10 I don't understand your question. How can I, as a mining expert, say why

11 is this site suitable for an investigation centre or, as you call it, a

12 camp. I cannot give you a comment on that because to -- in my mind,

13 regardless of what happened there, there's no place for thinking about it,

14 for any way to think about it.

15 Q. Sir, was the Omarska facility located a significant distance - I

16 believe you testified about 20 kilometres - from the town of Prijedor with

17 the nearest villages being villages that were predominantly of Serbian

18 ethnicity?

19 A. What you have just said is all correct.

20 Q. Sir, did the Omarska facility have heavy equipment, including

21 heavy trucks, and mining equipment such as digging equipment at its

22 disposal?

23 A. Yes, I have already said it here when we were talking about the

24 transportation means, and I can repeat it if I have to. A mine like this

25 usually has heavy equipment started with EKG, 346 Russian-made excavators,

Page 11785

1 and rotor excavators made in Germany, then bandwagons made in Germany,

2 Crips [phoen] crushers at the excavation site. And as for lorries, it has

3 dumpers of 75 tonnes carriage capacity made by Caterpillar. Then Ranke

4 [phoen] 75 tonnes capacity. Those were all American trucks. Then there

5 were bulldozers also made by Caterpillar. And all this is equipment that

6 serves for the exploitation of the iron ore in Omarska and in Ljubija in

7 general. And other excavation sites had similar equipment. But in

8 Omarska, there's also the gravitation magnetic separation technology.

9 Q. Before I move on, sir, I want to make sure I understand your

10 positions with the mine company. You were appointed in February of 1991

11 as the CEO. Is that correct?

12 A. President of the management board and it is correct that it was on

13 the 1st of February, 1991.

14 Q. Who appointed you to that position?

15 A. In the 1990s, there was the process of erosion of the economy in

16 the Bosnia and Herzegovina. There was a lack of cash. There were

17 strikes. And there was a collective resignation of the management board

18 in late 1990. And there was an opening for the position of the manager,

19 and there was a need to appoint a new manager, a new president of the

20 management board. I applied together with two other candidates, and a

21 committee was set up by the workers' council consisting of three members,

22 one of them was a mining engineer, one was of them was an economist, and

23 one had a degree in law.

24 The committee was in charge of reviewing obligations. The review

25 and their decision was presented to the workers' council which consisted

Page 11786

1 over 60 members. There was a long debate which lasted over a year and a

2 half and finally members of the workers' council reached a unanimous

3 decision, and I was appointed the president of the management board after

4 this long discussion which lasted for over one hour and a half.

5 Q. Until what time did you serve in that position, or do you continue

6 to serve in that position?

7 A. Do you want me to answer your first or your second question? I

8 can give you the correct answer to both. I was in the position of the

9 president of the management board until the beginning of 1992. And then

10 the company disintegrated. Some of its parts were shed off. I was

11 talking about that earlier this morning when I was talking about the

12 pigments and about the article that we read.

13 After that, my position was the general director of the mine, but

14 in order to avoid a confusion, the mine that remained as such had three

15 production plants and several sectors. And each of these production

16 plants and sectors had their own directors, and that's why my position was

17 general director. And together, we were the board of directors, and each

18 of these directors were in charge of their respective segment of work. I

19 was the general director until June 1996. And now, I am in the position

20 of the director of Prijedorka. This is a brick factory.

21 Q. Sir --

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just interrupt. There is a mistake on the

23 transcript apparently. Page 38, line 16 to 17. There it reads: "I was

24 appointed the president of the management board after this long discussion

25 which lasted for over one hour and a half." I believe you testified one

Page 11787

1 year and a half.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. One hour and a half.

3 It was the interpreter's mistake.


5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Sir, who removed you from that position with the Ljubija mine in

7 June 1996?

8 A. I have to go back, and I say that I have already stated once that

9 already at the end of 1992, there were attempts to remove me from my

10 position. I was on the list of those 12 directors in Prijedor that the

11 SDS was supposed to remove when the president of the municipality was

12 removed from his position. And then I said --

13 Q. Sir, I didn't ask you about 1992. The question was: Who removed

14 you in June 1996?

15 A. This confirms that they succeeded in 1996. It was the SDS that

16 removed me finally in 1996.

17 Q. When you were given that position in 1991, was it -- were you a

18 candidate of the SDS? In other words, did the SDS approve in some way

19 your obtaining that position? Was it part of the division of positions

20 between the three national parties?

21 A. I have already said, and you will excuse me for having to give you

22 more details in order to make myself clear. I've already said that I was

23 not a member of the SDS before October 1993. I said a little while ago

24 that my appointment was by the workers' council of the Ljubija mine which

25 at that time, according to the statute, was in charge of that. All the

Page 11788

1 three parties were brought before a fait accomplis. And I must say that

2 the parties had different other candidates, but these people did not apply

3 for the job.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: I have many other areas. I don't know if Your

5 Honour wants me to proceed for another few minutes or not.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You can proceed for another ten minutes.


8 Q. Sir, regarding the areas of the Ljubija mine company, we have a

9 little map I'd like to have distributed. It's from annex 7 of

10 Mr. Sebire's report. While it's being distributed, I'd just like you,

11 sir, to mark on the map the actual land areas, the property holdings of

12 the Ljubija mine company that appear on that map.

13 You could use, sir, the big red marker that's in front of you.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This will be provisionally marked S396.


16 Q. If you could outline -- you have to use the one to your right,

17 sir, to mark on.

18 A. My apologies. This is a very small map, and I believe this is

19 also a very old shot. I can only tell you in very rough outlines. This

20 is the central mine of the Ljubija local commune, and the management was

21 located roughly in this area. The excavations -- the pits were about

22 3 kilometres to the south, south of Ljubija.

23 Q. Can you tell us, sir, the pits that you're talking about, about

24 how much land area are we talking about -- excuse me, let me withdraw the

25 question. I think it wasn't very precise.

Page 11789

1 Does the company actually own land in the Ljubija area?

2 A. When, with the assistance of geological methods, suitable land is

3 found, then there is a public debate about expropriation of this

4 particular area. And all citizens take part in this debate, all citizens

5 who live in the area as well as representatives of the municipality on

6 whose territory the land in question lies.

7 Following debate, the land is expropriated so that exploitation of

8 the land could begin. If there is no agreement on the just compensation

9 between the Ljubija iron ore mine and the owner, then the municipal

10 committee is in charge of making the final decision concerning the

11 expropriation and the appropriation -- the subsequent appropriation of the

12 land.

13 Q. These excavations, would it be correct to say that they take place

14 between Ljubija going south to -- on the map we see Rijeka. It says

15 "ST." I don't know if that means Stari Rijeka. There's a road going

16 from Ljubija towards the south to Rijeka. Would it be correct that the

17 excavations occur along this road and on the sides of this road?

18 A. It's indisputable. If you pay close attention, and I believe you

19 can read this map, this area here, the area I've just marked, you can see

20 different levels, different shafts of floors. This is the central mine

21 heading further south towards Stari Rijeka. Just before you reach Stari

22 Rijeka and to the left, I'll try to mark it with dots again, you have the

23 shafts, the excavations of the southern mines. I did make a mistake

24 yesterday. I called this whole area the southern mines. And you can see

25 that there was mining activity here in this area.

Page 11790

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Now if now the witness could be shown the same map

3 with a couple of sites marked as they are on annex 7 and distribute that.

4 And for the record, the witness, as he was speaking about the excavation

5 site, made several red dots on the previous exhibit.

6 And Your Honour, may this receive another exhibit number.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The next one would be S397 provisionally.

8 The Defence, please.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: I have another comment with respect to this

10 provisionally marked exhibit, Your Honour. With respect to the question

11 that appears on --

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you have any objection or do you have a

13 comment?

14 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, for the provisional marking, this annex

15 7 is already admitted as part of Mr. Sebire's report.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we have a number, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Number S281.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So only if you have objections.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: I have a comment on the translation, if I may, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: On the translation.

22 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. On page 42 when counsel asked the question,

23 the answer that's quoted by the witness seems to be answering it's

24 indisputable period to that question. In fact, I think if we check the

25 transcripts, it would be slightly different, although I would hate to

Page 11791

1 impose my view of what the witness said. But then he proceeded to say

2 that it's indisputable this is where he felt the area was as opposed

3 answering the question that it's indisputable. I just want to make it for

4 the record. We can always go back and check it. Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we all under the meaning of the answer.

6 But please, continue.


8 Q. Sir, would it be correct that the two boxes marked on this map

9 Redak, in English "mass gravesite," and Jakorina Kos, mass gravesite, that

10 these gravesite that were excavated are in the area where your company the

11 Ljubija company was mining?

12 A. The Ljubija iron ore mine did dig for iron ore mine in this area

13 throughout the period between 1976 and 1986. Am I allowed to make any

14 further marks on this map? In this area just south of Ljubija, there is

15 Damusa, which is another source of the so-called basic ore, the Siderite

16 ore. And this production line was in operation until 1991.

17 Q. Sir, can you tell us what a "JOY" machine is?

18 A. It's a type of drill, I think American-produced, and it was used

19 to drill mine pits.

20 Q. Would it be correct that with a JOY machine, you can drill

21 circular holes through rock?

22 A. Yes. This is a type of equipment used to measure the radius of

23 the explosive, and then you drill a hole. Now, the diameter of the hole

24 depends on what we refer to as the "crown" which is placed on the

25 equipment used to drill the hole.

Page 11792

1 Q. How many JOY machines were there in Prijedor Municipality between

2 1992 and 1993 to your knowledge?

3 A. I know that the old drill that was obtained, the JOY drill, was

4 purchased in the 1970s, and then there was also the Ingersoll Rand [phoen]

5 drill that was purchased in the 1980s. So I know of two drills that are

6 more or less of the same kind.

7 Q. Would you expect, sir, that these would be the only two drills in

8 the Prijedor Municipality?

9 A. I am certain about the two at the mine, that they were there. And

10 I think they still are. As far as the town of Prijedor, I really cannot

11 know that because there were people around at that time who were in a

12 position to obtain such drills privately through their own channels. It's

13 just that I don't know these people.

14 Q. Thank you. One more question before the break. How much does one

15 of those machines cost? How much would it cost in German marks in 1992?

16 A. In 1992, I don't know. But at the time they were purchased, if my

17 memory serves me right, I think they cost about 180.000 dollars, American

18 dollars.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until half past 1.00.

21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 1.35 p.m.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon. Please be seated.

24 Mr. Koumjian, you may proceed, please.


Page 11793

1 Q. Sir, can you tell me whether if at any time in which you were a

2 manager or director of the Ljubija mines the equipment of the mines was

3 used, to your knowledge, for burying bodies or hiding bodies of persons

4 who had been killed in 1992?

5 A. No, I don't know that.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, there's a set of photographs, if I

7 could just have the usher please retrieve them from Defence counsel as I

8 gave them to him to look at. And if they could be shown -- I can just

9 check the order -- if they can be shown to the witness. I would ask the

10 usher to put them on the ELMO, and the witness can either look at the

11 screen or at the photographs which would be to his right.

12 Q. Sir, you are aware of an exhumation at a site known as Jakorina

13 Kos in September of 2001. Is that correct?

14 A. I don't know the exact date, but I heard this on TV.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Could the photograph just zoom out a little bit.

16 Thank you.

17 Q. Do you recognise this photograph as the site? Have you seen that

18 site, Jakorina Kos, where bodies were exhumed in 2001 and identified as

19 having died in 1992?

20 A. By looking at this photograph, my conclusion is that these are old

21 mining sites, but if I simply look at the photograph, I can't tell you

22 that this is Jakorina Kos.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. Can we just go to the photograph on the bottom of

24 the same page. It might be easier just to move the photograph up.

25 Again, sir, do you have any comment? Do you recognise the site or

Page 11794












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11795

1 these craters at the top of the slope?

2 A. I can't offer any comment. Again, these are probably old mining

3 sites from before, and the lay of the land is hilly.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Can the next photograph be shown, the next page.

5 Perhaps to speed things up, we can just zoom out to show both

6 photographs at the same time.

7 Sir, just to speed things along, do you recognise anything in

8 these photographs? Or if you would like to make any comment, you may.

9 A. It's difficult for me to notice anything in particular. In the

10 upper photograph, I think I see a person doing something. I don't see

11 what exactly the person is doing.

12 Q. Thank you. And the lower photograph just appears to be a

13 photograph of soil of various colours. Can we move now to the next

14 photograph, the next page.

15 I'm going to ask you to just look at the next three photographs,

16 have them displayed, and then I'll ask you a question.

17 For the record, we can have the ERN numbers read out for the

18 record. I can't see it right now. Maybe the usher can read it.

19 The ERN number appears to be 02129893. Can we show the next

20 photograph. And it appears to be a boulder and someone has put a stick

21 through the boulder in a hole that runs through the boulder. The second

22 photograph has the ERN number 02130308, again showing a boulder with at

23 least two holes visible. And then the third photograph, please, there's

24 two photographs on this page, 02129883. And then the one I'm more

25 interested in is 02129889. Can that be moved up so we can see the whole

Page 11796

1 photograph? The bottom photograph, please. Which depicts a circular hole

2 in either ground or rock.

3 Sir, in these three -- the last photograph we just looked at and

4 on the two previous pages, we saw circular holes of approximately -- I'm

5 not going to guess the diameter. But maybe 15 centimetres, it appears to

6 be. Sir, are these holes consistent with the holes drilled by a JOY

7 machine?

8 A. I'll comment on the first photograph, the one I had a look at.

9 When mining was being done on a massive scale, the Ingersoll Rand [phoen]

10 drill is used to drill holes up to a depth of 12 to 13 metres and the

11 height of the level is 10 metres. This is a mass of rock which is not

12 homogenous between the slate rocks, a different type of rock that's

13 usually much softer. It often happens, and I'm talking about the first

14 photograph after the mines are laid, after the explosive are inserted, the

15 hole of the explosive in the way miners call it "blows out" which means

16 that the rock doesn't break apart. But instead, what occurs is what we

17 saw in the upper zone of the slate while the drill was drilling. There

18 was a hole left in the upper layer and bits were blown out from down

19 beneath it. Just to help with the diameter, I know that the crowns that

20 we used to -- on top of the equipment, the drills were 120 centimetres

21 wide.

22 As far as the next photograph is concerned, when a massive amount

23 of explosives is laid, large pieces of rocks break off after the explosion

24 which can be scooped up with the digger. So then we do what we refer to

25 as secondary mining. And the rock is drilled, the explosive is laid into

Page 11797

1 the rock, and then the hole is covered with clay. It often happens that

2 the mine itself, the explosive blows out, as we call it, and the big

3 boulders don't simply break into pieces.

4 Now, the last two photographs, the upper section of the page, you

5 see what we refer to as the lone rocks. So if they are in the way of the

6 overall mining project, they are just removed through secondary mining.

7 And if they are not in the way, they are just left where they were. In

8 this second phase, second stage of mining, of secondary mining, another

9 thing that can occur is that a crater is created by the drill itself. You

10 have the diameter of 120 centimetres in the lower layer of the drilled

11 hole itself, and I suppose the lower photograph is a result of exactly

12 such process of mining.

13 Q. Are you saying centimetres or millimetres?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, millimetres.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Millimetres.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

17 Q. Sir, the photographs that you saw of these holes, I gather, then

18 are consistent with activities that would have been done by mining

19 equipment. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes. I'm only judging on the basis of these photographs, so I

21 can't judge clearly. I'm under the impression that I'm taking a mining

22 exam here.

23 Q. And I think you're doing well on the exam.

24 Sir, can you tell us based on your knowledge, in 1993, were you

25 aware of bodies and body parts being moved from other locations to

Page 11798

1 Jakorina Kos, the site which is depicted on the map you saw this morning

2 using equipment from the Ljubija mines?

3 A. No, I was not aware of that. I certainly didn't know about that.

4 And in my role, in my position, I certainly couldn't know. If what you

5 say is correct, it certainly wasn't information that I was aware of.

6 Q. Sir, the information that has been presented to this Court is that

7 373 body and body parts were recovered from that site, and that there was

8 evidence of military explosives and other evidence that the military had

9 been present. Were you aware of the army of Republika Srpska putting

10 bodies in Jakorina Kos in 1993?

11 A. In my testimony, I have already said, if I remember correctly,

12 that we handed over all the mining explosives to the army as early as the

13 end of 1991. I'm not aware that the army had any activities nor when

14 these activities took place. What I can tell you is that there are two or

15 roads by which you can reach Jakorina Kos. Jakorina Kos I think is about

16 18 or 20 kilometres from Prijedor, but I really don't know of any military

17 activities, of any activities carried out by the army.

18 Q. Sir, did you have a good relationship, a good understanding, with

19 the military in Prijedor in 1992?

20 A. I spent some time in the Prijedor garrison in 1991. I was there

21 two or three times. When the JNA moved -- started moving from Slovenia

22 and later at some point, I'm not sure, from Croatia, they asked me to find

23 a way to put these people up. The location of this accommodation was

24 determined. It was to be the Mrakovica Hotel on Mount Kozara. They would

25 usually spent a day or two there and then they would proceed with their

Page 11799

1 journey. Later, I did not have any contacts with the army because the

2 garrison, specifically its commander, Arsic, left for the front in

3 Slavonia. I'm not sure where exactly, but I never went there.

4 Q. After the Omarska camp was opened at the end of May 1992, did you

5 have a good relationship with the army? Did you have --

6 A. I did not have any sort of contact with the army throughout that

7 period. As I said in my testimony, I once mentioned this, that at the

8 entrance to the municipal building, I heard that people were asking for

9 the ultimatum deadline to turn over weapons to be postponed. And nearby,

10 there were security people from the army.

11 Q. Sir, did you wear a uniform in 1992?

12 A. In late May of 1992, for the first 10 or 15 days, yes, I was

13 wearing uniform. I was wearing a gun, too, BT short-barrel rifle, Zastava

14 was the make of the rifle. That was for personal safety.

15 Q. Would you say as the head of the largest enterprise in Prijedor in

16 1992, that you cooperated and had a good relationship and understanding

17 with both the military that was conducting operations in places like

18 Kozarac and the municipal leadership?

19 A. I had no cooperation at all with the army at that time. And as

20 far as the leadership of the municipality is concerned, I did a couple of

21 times go to see the secretary for the economy, not very often, though. In

22 view of the fact that he was the minister who was my superior, who in

23 charge of my area of work, his name was Ranko Travar.

24 Q. Using the assets of the Ljubija mine company, did you assist the

25 army in 1992 in order to reach their political agenda, their political

Page 11800

1 goals?

2 A. The army was mobilising, commandeering equipment from the iron ore

3 mine. There are documents. There are mobilisation lists containing this

4 information. I know that bulldozer DO8 was commandeered. I know that at

5 a later stage, some of the vehicles, some of the freight vehicles and some

6 of the buses, used to transport soldiers from the town to the front line

7 were also commandeered.

8 Q. But your testimony is you yourself did not provide any assistance

9 to the army or cooperation with them. Is that correct?

10 A. That was my testimony. Privately and personally, I did not

11 cooperate in any way, but there was no way for me to stand up against

12 mobilisation or the army's commandeering of equipment. There was no way

13 for me to do that.

14 Q. I'm sorry to -- let me just ask you one more question on this

15 subject to be clear. Did you use the assets of the Ljubija mine company

16 that were not mobilised or expropriated, did you use that to assist the

17 army?

18 A. No, I didn't. There is a document from 1992 in which I am accused

19 of having expropriated part of the funds and then of having forwarded

20 these funds to Serbia. In order to make this right, I --

21 Q. I'm not asking you about expropriating money yourself; I'm asking

22 about the assets of the mine company --

23 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, to correct the interpretation, I don't

24 think that this gentleman mentioned funds, but equipment. But you can

25 clarify it with the witness. And secondly, let the witness finish his

Page 11801

1 answer, please.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's first try to find a clarification. On the

3 transcript it reads that your answer was: "There is a document from 1992

4 in which I am accused of having expropriated part of the funds, and then

5 of having forwarded these funds to Serbia."

6 Could you please correct or state if it's correctly reflected on

7 the transcript.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My testimony was that towards the

9 end of 1992, I was accused of having expropriated equipment from the mine,

10 and then of having forwarded this equipment, having sent this equipment to

11 Serbia. I'm saying this because there is recorded footage, a tape, on

12 which you can see all the equipment at the mine that had been

13 commandeered. It was stored in hangars and in maintenance halls. And I

14 think that was your question.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for the clarification of this term.

16 Please proceed.


18 Q. Sir, the reason I stopped you is because I'm not -- my question

19 does not deal with any accusations of you misappropriating property or

20 money. My question is simply: As the head of the largest enterprise in

21 Prijedor, did you use that position and the assets of your company to

22 assist the army? Was your company important for the army's operations in

23 1992?

24 A. Quite specifically, aside from the equipment that had been

25 commandeered, no other equipment was at any time used by the army, not to

Page 11802

1 my knowledge.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I now would ask -- Mr. Ostojic would

4 like to make a comment.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please no comment, only objections.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Obviously. Although I accept the OTP's invitation,

7 I think the witness said "mobilised." Commandeered. I mean, we don't

8 want to quibble over it. We would just ask the Court, if at all possible

9 if there could be some level -- or added level of concentration because

10 the words may become important. The witness clearly said it. We could

11 look at the videotape.

12 The Defence is using an enormous amount of restraint from jumping

13 up every 5 seconds to make these objections. So we would ask the Court

14 with all due respect if possible -- and these are words that may

15 ultimately be important in our briefs and final arguments. But I think

16 the witness used the word "mobilised," and it is translated by differently

17 translators always, but it should be consistent since that's the only way

18 you could possible translate that word.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please give us some guidance. You are

20 making reference to page and line number.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Page 53, line 3, the first word.


23 MR. OSTOJIC: Page 53, line 3, the word "commandeered" appears.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's 4, isn't it? I'm looking at LiveNote

25 sorry.

Page 11803

1 May I ask the booth, was there any misunderstanding? And second,

2 may I ask the witness, it reads now on the transcript, quite specifically

3 "Aside from the equipment that had been commandeered, no other equipment

4 was at any time used by the army." The word "commandeered," did you use

5 this word? I know it's difficult for the translation, retranslation.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, could I --

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let me just wait. What is the comment by the

8 witness?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My comment concerning this is that

10 according to laws and regulations, the army mobilised part of the

11 equipment of the Ljubija iron ore mine "mobilised." So there are

12 mobilisation lists where a certain piece of equipment is listed as having

13 been mobilised by the army. And which from that moment on is under the

14 control of the army.

15 What I can say is that no other equipment that I knew of was being

16 used by the army.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And for the purposes of -- at least

18 the attempt to facilitate our work, may I ask the booth in case there may

19 be a word which has -- or might have two similar or different meanings,

20 that they draw our attention to this. And if necessary, even ask what is

21 the meaning of the word, what did you want to say. Otherwise, I think we

22 will end up in a mess. And I know all of our work is extremely

23 difficulty. We are working not only in three languages; we have an

24 addition of at least three other languages in this courtroom. But we have

25 to overcome these obstacles. And therefore I invite you in doubt, let us

Page 11804

1 know from the side of the booths. Thank you.


3 Q. Sir, did you repair equipment for the army in 1992?

4 A. I think that part of the transportation means were being repaired

5 in the central workshop in Prijedor.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, could I ask the booth to play a video

7 that has been prepared. It was S11, but it's a specific extract --

8 excerpt from that video.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we use the time when the video is

10 prepared --

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's ready.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's ready. Then please, it may be started.


14 Q. Sir, there will be a video in front of you being played, I'll ask

15 you to listen to the video, and then I'll ask you some questions about it.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: You may play the video.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry, can we stop. Stop, please. I don't

19 believe -- the translation does not need to be on.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could this please be rewound that we can follow

21 on the basis of the translation. I take it that is a translation.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, my apologies to everyone. That was my error.

23 The translation had not yet been handed out.

24 If everyone is ready, we can start again, please.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 11805

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The largest iron ore mine in our

2 country, the Ljubija mines, has suffered certain consequences as a result

3 of the war in the area of Prijedor municipality and of the overall

4 situation that prevails not only in the Autonomous Region of Krajina, but

5 generally in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia. The mine used to

6 cooperate with foreign companies, both in the area of procurement, spare

7 parts, and exports of ore. Due to a combination of circumstances, it all

8 stopped. There are no payments and no transport of ore to the steel works

9 in Zenica and Smederevo. Nevertheless, in the past two months, the mine

10 managed to overcome its problems. It even paid the salaries and placed

11 some of its assets at the disposal of the military authorities and the

12 army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. We are talking

13 now about specific issues with Ostoja Marjanovic, manager of the Ljubija

14 mines.

15 "Let me first point out that the principal activity of the mine

16 has been suspended, and that is the mine production. It goes out saying

17 that it was caused by recent events, the war and wartime conditions, and

18 severed communications. Consequently, we are not able to deliver our

19 products any longer to Zenica of Smederevo. But, in view of the events

20 that took place after the 22nd of May, we are making efforts, just like

21 all other economic entities are doing more or less successfully, to meet

22 the requirements and demands of this particular moment. First, we started

23 food production in our catering facilities. I must praise our employees

24 who did their duty and came to work, even during the curfew.

25 "You happened to have some stocks that proved to be invaluable at

Page 11806

1 the time of need while the war operations were in progress.

2 "Well, that is a fact. That was really true. But I don't think

3 that it should be overemphasised. It seems...we had anticipated something

4 like that to happen, irrespective of other circumstances. And we had some

5 stocks that helped us get through the initial stage when we lacked working

6 capital needed for the procurement of foodstuffs. This is one of the

7 segments that we worked on. Another segment involved putting the central

8 metal processing workshop into operation, and it started doing repair work

9 on the military equipment, the equipment of other work organisations, and

10 eventually our own equipment that we had used for reconstruction of the

11 town. You know very well what happened, that there was demolition, et

12 cetera. Now, if you walk through certain parts of Prijedor, you cannot

13 recognise them because of those dilapidated and demolished houses. But we

14 have rehabilitated the area with our machinery and our men.

15 "I wouldn't miss an opportunity to mention that the catering

16 service of the Ljubija mines has taken a huge burden on their shoulders,

17 and they still do, thanks to their stocks, but also with good cooperation

18 of Prijedor's wholesalers and the supplier from Banja Luka, Veleprehrana,

19 with whom they had a purchasing contract signed earlier. I also must give

20 credit to the metal workers of Prijedor who managed in these times of war

21 to meet all the requirements of the barracks and the war brigade in

22 Prijedor.

23 "Well, let us go back a little. You mentioned that the salaries

24 were paid. That was for April of this year, and it was possible solely

25 thanks to the Smederevo metallurgical complex. The amount paid in

Page 11807

1 salaries were 450 million dinars, I mean old dinars. It was an

2 investment, in fact, in future production and we managed to make this

3 payment. When you spoke about cooperation, I think that we need to

4 mention everyone, retailers and Veleplrehrana, and -- who financed a

5 greater part of our operation, because they supplied a lot of material in

6 the beginning. We also had good cooperation with all other enterprises

7 from Prijedor. I estimate that there's a high level of understanding

8 between us and the military and exceptionally good cooperation with the

9 local leadership of Prijedor Municipality. I do not think that Ljubija

10 deserves to be specially highlighted because it fits into the mosaic of

11 joint efforts to create this new system which is our goal."


13 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, just a few questions about your last comment. You

14 said that the efforts of the Ljubija mine "fits into the mosaic of joint

15 efforts to create this new system which is our goal." First, when you say

16 "our goal," whose goal were you talking about? Who did you mean by

17 "our"?

18 A. The goal of the Ljubija mines.

19 Q. And what was these joint efforts to create this new system? What

20 did you mean by that?

21 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may object to the form of the question, Your

22 Honour. On the translation itself they have a question mark by that word,

23 and it wasn't interpreted. I know the booth is reading for its

24 convenience the translation offered by the OTP. But I don't know that

25 they gleaned from the actual video that that was the word.

Page 11808

1 So I just want that to be clear on the question, that it's OTP's

2 contention that that's what the word is but they themselves have placed a

3 question mark on that word. And the booth merely read -- and I'm not sure

4 if they placed a question mark -- I'm not sure if they translated the

5 video at the same time it was being played or merely read from it.

6 Thank you, Your Honour.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Let me just briefly comment, Your Honour. First of

8 all, the Defence has many times pointed to the amount of time the

9 cross-examination takes. I hope the interruptions are not counted against

10 us by the Defence.

11 As far as this witness's use of the word, he listened in his own

12 language and he understood my question because he had listened to the tape

13 and the word he had used. If counsel wants to correct the word, I don't

14 have a problem. If you want to use another word rather than "system,"

15 I'll accept the other word.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: We can ask -- go ahead, Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: I don't know -- I don't remember the word any more,

18 but we could hear it, and maybe the witness can repeat that word.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, that's fine.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the witness has listened to the tape and

21 not read that what we had before us, and apparently it was read out in

22 English. And therefore, I think the witness knows what it's all about.

23 Therefore, please proceed, Mr. Koumjian.


25 Q. When you said, sir, that "I do not think that Ljubija deserves to

Page 11809

1 be specially highlighted because it fits into the mosaic of joint

2 efforts," joint efforts by who, sir?

3 A. I have to point out two things when it comes to your question.

4 We're talking about the end of April when this interview was done. We

5 provided services to everybody, and people paid us for these services. I

6 said in this interview that the mining operation had stopped, that the

7 payment transactions were not in place, that we could not bank with the

8 banks in Sarajevo and Zenica. We had contact with Smederevo. We didn't

9 expect that the interruption on the roads to Smederevo would last that

10 long. That's why we had to create the conditions to be able to pay the

11 salaries to our employees. I have to point out that at that time, there

12 was such a situation that put me and some of the people into the position,

13 those of us who did not agree with the referendum that had taken place,

14 and only the -- the only people -- there were only two people that took

15 part in the referendum and the third people were not asked any questions.

16 At that time, I wanted us to stay in Yugoslavia, and that is what

17 I meant. When I said, this I wanted to remain in Yugoslavia because

18 Yugoslavia for me was always and at that time still was, it remained it

19 very good option.

20 Q. Okay, sir, you referred to the date of this interview having taken

21 place in April. During the interview, just to remind you stated -- excuse

22 me?

23 A. I said the end of April.

24 Q. Yes, thank you. During the interview, you say that, I'm reading

25 from the bottom of page 18, around six lines up --

Page 11810

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, we tried to understand the date. Where

2 did you take the date from? On page 18, second-last paragraph, it reads:

3 "The events that took place after 22 May."

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's exactly what I'm bringing to the witness's

5 attention.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. Sorry for this confusion.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Couple points.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: [Previous translation continues]...the witness.

9 We're not going to hold this against the OTP in terms of their time. But

10 we're looking at Exhibit S11 that was submitted with the translation which

11 has specifically has pages 12 to 14. On the very top of that exhibit that

12 we would ask the Madam Registrar to show for us on the ELMO, it

13 specifically shows the date of when this interview was in Banja Luka,

14 so -- production by Banja Luka. And for the record --

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We shouldn't interfere too much. And I

16 apologise myself for having interrupted the line of questions prepared by

17 the Prosecution during cross-examination. It's the right of the party to

18 take their own approach to come to this goal. So no objections admitted.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: I have another objection, Your Honour, if I may.

21 MR. LUKIC: We never received this document, never. Not the

22 videotape, not the document.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The document is admitted as S11 long ago.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: That's what we're trying to clarify if we would just

25 be permitted --

Page 11811

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'll clarify for counsel. It's 65 ter --

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, the Prosecution is trying to clarify

3 this, and as we allowed the Defence to develop how it comes to this date,

4 what is the date, is the date correct? So it's for the Prosecution to

5 follow this line of questions prepared, and I formally apologise for

6 having interrupted you. Sorry.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just for Defence counsel, the 65 ter number of the

8 entire tape is 798. The earlier smaller portion was played, and it's a

9 video -- the ERN number is 0000444.

10 Q. Sir, just to assist you with the date of this interview, you

11 indicated, as His Honour pointed out, that you talked about at one point

12 events that took place after the 22nd of May. And you also talk about

13 demolitions in Prijedor. Were there demolitions in Prijedor in May of

14 1992?

15 A. I made a mistake. I could not see that on this footage that you

16 showed me. I couldn't see the time. I'm here talking about the repairs

17 in town after the war operations. I am rather tired, so I missed that. I

18 must say that the war operations, especially in the area of Berek, on the

19 30th of May when there was this attack on Prijedor, there were houses that

20 had been set fire to in the war operations. Some of the houses in the

21 town centre were also demolished. And later on in the main street, in the

22 town centre, one of the houses was set on fire. A body was set up in the

23 municipality that was in charge of making repairs in that part of the

24 city. And that body hired some of the equipment from the mines in order

25 to be able to carry out that task.

Page 11812

1 Q. And that would have been in June of 1992. Correct? Or

2 afterwards?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Sir, in this interview, you talked about having a high level of

5 understanding between you and the military. Why is it you said this when

6 you told us that the military had forcibly taken over the Omarska facility

7 from you and that that is something that you would have opposed even at

8 the risk of your own life?

9 A. I have just said that this cooperation was good in terms of them

10 paying services to us, and the services in question are the repairs of

11 their transportation means in our central workshop.

12 Q. Sir, how many people, how many friends and colleagues of yourself

13 disappeared from the Omarska camp, to your knowledge?

14 A. Again, my answer cannot be direct. After these events which took

15 place on the 30th of May, and during the month of June, we didn't know who

16 was -- who would be turning up for work except for those who were under

17 work obligation as indicated based on the documents, for those who were on

18 the list for the 5th and the 6th of May.

19 When I communicated to my subordinate managers that we should have

20 all the people reporting for work on the 1st of each month, there was

21 actually no work, but we needed to know who of the work force was still

22 available to us. Once that was established, I issued a document firing

23 some of the people irrespective of their ethnic background. I believe

24 that I signed about 1600 such documents firing people. And the question

25 that you have just put to me, I really don't know, and there was no way

Page 11813

1 for me to know that.

2 Q. Sir, didn't you learn that Mr. Sakib Islamovic who you mentioned

3 in your testimony as a colleague you worked with was put into the Omarska

4 camp?

5 A. Mr. Sakib Islamovic, when he returned from Omarska, I heard that

6 he had returned. I sent him some cigarettes to his apartment. It was

7 only then that I found out that he had been in Omarska from which he

8 returned.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have a photograph I'd like to be

10 shown to counsel. It is ERN number -- to counsel and to the witness and

11 the Court. ERN number 00356464.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: While this is done, may I ask the OTP, do you

13 want to tender these photographs separately or following the other

14 coloured photos under S15?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think it might make more sense to give them one

16 additional number, and then consecutively numbered after.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then this would be S397, and -1 following in the

18 order it has been shown and it still is.


20 Q. Sir, in the photograph that's now on the screen, would I be

21 correct in assuming that you are the individual in the right-hand side of

22 the photograph looking sideways in the background?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The person with his arm around the gentleman in the middle, the

25 person to your right in the photograph is Mr. Slobodan -- Mr. Balaban - I

Page 11814

1 forget his first name - that you mentioned earlier today. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us the names of the other two individuals.

5 A. Slobodan's arm is around Smail Zahirovic. Next to him is

6 Ibro Paunovic.

7 Q. Can you tell the Court the occupations and the positions prior to

8 the takeover of the municipality of Prijedor on the 30th of April of

9 Mr. Zahirovic and Mr. Paunovic? Did they work for the Ljubija mine?

10 A. They did. I believe that Ibro Paunovic was the director of the

11 mining centre, and Mr. Zahirovic was the director of protection and work.

12 Q. Sir, did you ever learn that these colleagues of yours were killed

13 in the Omarska camp?

14 A. After all the events, they didn't turn up for work. I didn't know

15 that they were killed. I suppose that this is what happened because I

16 haven't heard of their lot to this very day.

17 Q. I believe in your testimony, you mentioned Mr. Mehmedalija

18 Sarajlic. Can you tell us his position?

19 A. I don't remember ever having mentioned Mehmedalija Sarajlic.

20 Q. Thank you. Did you know Mr. Sarajlic -- I accept, sir -- I

21 realise I made a mistake. You did not mention Mr. Sarajlic, and I

22 apologise to counsel and to you. You know Mr. Sarajlic; is that correct?

23 A. I do, correct.

24 Q. Can you tell the Court what his position was with the Ljubija

25 mine.

Page 11815

1 A. I can't say because when I was appointed director, I offered him

2 to be the director of the mining and construction works. He was a

3 construction engineer. He refused that. He continued working in his

4 office without the position that he had occupied previously. And

5 previously, he was a member of the management board.

6 Q. You also mentioned in your testimony Mr. Esref Crnkic. If counsel

7 would like, I can find that reference if it's necessary.

8 Sir, do you recall mentioning Mr. Crnkic? Do you know who

9 Mr. Crnkic is?

10 A. I don't remember that I have mentioned him, and when you say his

11 name, I don't recognise it. Does he have a first name?

12 Q. I believe - and forgive my pronunciation - Esref Crnkic.

13 A. Yes, now your pronunciation was better. Esref Crnkic, I did

14 mention him. I said that he was a director of repairs and maintenance,

15 and that his office served for the meetings of the SDA Executive Board.

16 And I also said that the central workshop stopped working on the 30th of

17 April.

18 Q. Sir, are you aware that both Mr. Sarajlic and Mr. Crnkic were

19 killed in the Omarska camp?

20 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

21 Q. Sir, on the 30th -- prior to the 30th of April of 1992, you were

22 one of the most prominent citizens of Prijedor. Correct?

23 A. I cannot confirm that. I cannot give you any opinions about

24 myself or how people perceived me. It is up to the people of Prijedor to

25 say that. Can I please ask the Honourable Court, I'm very tired. I'm

Page 11816

1 finding it very difficult to concentrate, if I can have a short break. I

2 would kindly ask you for a break. I am 60 years of age, and I feel tired.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No additional explanation is needed. Let's have

4 a break until 10 minutes to 3.00. But in the meantime, let's just decide

5 on the admission of evidence first. We had the pictures. Objections

6 related to the pictures? None.

7 MR. LUKIC: No objections.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence under S397-1 and

9 following. Then, the following picture would be this one, S398.

10 Objections?

11 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence, S398.

13 Then we have the video. This will be far more difficult. We are

14 aware that in the past, another clip of the same video was admitted into

15 evidence as S11. It's the Prosecution who tendered this document. May I

16 ask, do you want to have this as a special clip with a new exhibit number

17 or would you prefer to have it as S11-1?

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: S11-1 is fine. I just want to make it as easy as

19 possible for someone going through the transcript to find the evidence.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: We do, Your Honour. We would like to clarify the

22 point if we may. We can either try to do that now or after the break,

23 whatever the Court desires.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's quite clear, and I may anticipate

25 what you want to say. We are aware that we are discussing a production of

Page 11817

1 TV Banja Luka from the 30th of June, 1992. And this is part of the

2 transcript admitted into evidence as S11A, but there only pages 12 to 14.

3 And this is another part of this same translation.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: With all due respect, it's that and two other points

5 in connection with that document, Your Honour, that I'd like to raise if I

6 may.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I suggest the witness be excused if he's tired.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. I thought it might be relaxing to follow

9 the dispute amongst the parties. Of course, you're excused. And may I

10 ask the usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom. Thank you.

11 So please, no additional problems, I think. When we -- what is

12 your objection, please?

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, the objection is that the

14 representations we believe that were made in connection with Exhibit S11

15 were specifically for that portion of the tape, and therefore although we

16 insisted on getting the entire transcript presented to us in written form,

17 they suggested that they were only going to confine it to this segment of

18 it. We were not given at any time these new pages 18 through 21 of the

19 tape that they perceive now is part of S11. We want to know why. We want

20 the remaining pages, the 12 pages before the Banja Luka tape that they

21 used as well as the subsequent pages following page 20 of this new

22 exhibit.

23 We thought and believe that the Court's ruling - and we could be

24 wrong on this - was to provide the Defence in its totality the evidence

25 that they have. And not to piecemeal, withhold information and to give us

Page 11818

1 the information as they so deemed fit. We would at this time request if

2 permitted to have the entirety of the translated version of that videotape

3 because we would like to also analyse the videotape. Without making

4 prejudgement, there were some tapes that overlapped in terms of the time

5 period --

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I hear the comments given by the

7 Prosecution.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, the videotape in question was

9 disclosed to the Defence on the 25th of March of last year. If counsel

10 wants a -- if the translation and apparently the translation was not

11 provided, I don't know whether or not it was available that date. But

12 we'll happily provide the rest of the translation. The Defence does speak

13 the language, and given the -- that we haven't received any translation of

14 the Defence documents, I think they understand that sometimes translations

15 can take a long period of time. But the tape was provided almost a year

16 ago in their language, the entire tape.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: And we appreciate that. The tape was provided. The

18 representation was that this segment with the accompanying translation

19 would be given to us. Clearly, if only that segment was provided - again,

20 I don't want to speculate, I don't mean to infer anything to the OTP - how

21 could it be possible that they would have numbered those pages 12 through

22 14 unless someone at some point would have presumed that there was other

23 translations or was it hypothetical on their part that there were going to

24 be 12 pages preceding that and many pages following these 18, 19, and 20.

25 Secondly, I would encourage us to listen to those videotapes so

Page 11819

1 that we could, I think, make a determination whether or not the audiosound

2 of those tapes are adequate enough so that despite the fact that you might

3 be bilingual that it is very, very difficult unless you have sophisticated

4 equipment to pick up the questions and responses and issues that are

5 raised during some of these interviews. I invite the Court to do and that

6 we could all do it together if the Court permits.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think that the exhibit as such is in its

8 entirety in the position of the Defence, and I believe the same is true

9 for the Chamber. So it shouldn't be a problem. And please feel free

10 whenever you believe the translation, we can read "rough English version,"

11 for example, on S11A. So please, draw our attention to these points.

12 In addition, I believe the Prosecution can't do more than provide

13 the entire text. And apparently, we have transcripts in B/C/S as we had

14 it with the document S11B. So it's even far more easier to follow that

15 what can be heard from the video. And the English translation, and the

16 Judges would appreciate also to get copies of this -- of the English

17 version at least in case there might be a problem related to the

18 language. With the assistance of booth and Judge Vassylenko, we will try

19 to resolve the problems.

20 It's now only the questions first, are there any other objections

21 as a matter of principle for the admitting into evidence of this concrete

22 part?

23 MR. OSTOJIC: Not at this time, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So this would go as S11-1. And the transcript

25 in English, S11-1-a. In the B/C/S, to be followed, S11-1-b.

Page 11820

1 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, an unrelated point to this exhibit but

2 related to the witness, during our proffer of the witness we were

3 informed, although did not extract that information because we didn't

4 think it was relevant, but just so the Court and the OTP knows, this

5 witness has recently undergone kidney surgery, and we invite the Court to

6 ask him, because I think that's some of the problems why he's having a

7 little bit of an endurance issue and is having a lack of concentration in

8 connection with his testimony here.

9 So we would just like, and perhaps it was an omission on our part,

10 so we should have asked him ahead but we didn't think his personal medical

11 condition may be relevant to the facts in the indictment. But we think

12 it's important at least to note that, and that's why I think he's

13 experiencing especially late in the afternoon some of the problems that

14 we've seen here. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We would appreciate that we would be informed at

16 the beginning of a hearing on these problems. Any other issues during

17 this point in time in the absence of the witness? This is apparently not

18 the case.

19 The trial stays adjourned until 3.00 sharp. And may we please,

20 the witness be informed on this time.

21 --- Recess taken at 2.43 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 3.05 p.m.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. May I ask the witness,

24 whenever you feel uncomfortable, please let us know immediately as you did

25 in the past that we can take the necessary steps. And a second point that

Page 11821

1 I don't forget, I shouldn't forget to announce if you do not know yet, the

2 meetings -- the hearing tomorrow, Thursday, the 6th, and Friday the 7th

3 will take place as scheduled but in Courtroom III.

4 So Mr. Koumjian, please proceed.


6 Q. Sir, in your testimony, you mentioned the names of several other

7 prominent individuals in Prijedor that you knew. For example, Mr. Silvija

8 Seric went with you, I believe, on -- it was part of the peace

9 organisation. Dr. Esad Sadikovic, who came the president of that

10 movement, was elected president of that movement. And you mentioned

11 Dr. Minka Cehajic, your neighbour, and I presume you also knew her

12 husband, the president of the municipality, Dr. -- excuse me, Professor

13 Cehajic. Is that correct, you knew all of these individuals?

14 A. Yes, I did know all of these people. Of course, they lived in

15 Prijedor. I lived in Prijedor, too. We lived together in the same town.

16 Silvester Seric was the president of the SDZ. He was not a member of the

17 peace movement.

18 Q. Thank you for correcting me in that.

19 MR. LUKIC: Just a second. I'm sorry. I apologise, but can we

20 use the term the president of the Municipal Assembly for Mr. Cehajic

21 instead of president of the municipality.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we all know what is meant, and we

23 shouldn't try to be too sophisticated. Sometimes all of us make this -- I

24 wouldn't call it a mistake, but we all know what was meant. So please

25 continue.

Page 11822


2 Q. Sir, were you aware that all three of these individuals were

3 killed or disappeared in the Omarska camp, the camp that was -- or the

4 facilities owned by the Ljubija mine in 1992, that they disappeared in

5 1992?

6 A. I will try to state thing. Please try to understand me

7 correctly. After those events, news arrived, but from the streets.

8 Certain names were mentioned. They said that these people had been

9 killed. After the events, unfortunately [as interpreted], I did meet some

10 of those people who had been referred to as dead, and they were still

11 alive. It's very difficult for me to learn now after all this time that

12 some of these people are actually missing.

13 MR. LUKIC: If the witness can clarify whether he said

14 unfortunately or fortunately.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We can come back. But please, let the witness

16 speak out in its entirety as it was requested by your side previously. So

17 you're making reference to line 16 on page 72.

18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And no doubt, it should read "fortunately"

20 instead of "unfortunately."


22 Q. Sir, my question dealt with Mr. Seric, Dr. Sadikovic, and

23 Muhamed Cehajic. Did you see any of these three people alive after they

24 entered the Omarska camp?

25 A. I don't think we understood each other correctly. I did not see

Page 11823

1 these specific people. What I said was that word about Prijedor was that

2 certain people had gone missing. And yet, at some later time I found,

3 fortunately, that those people were, in fact, still alive. It is very

4 difficult for me to look at these names, names of colleagues of mine, from

5 the iron ore mine also, look at these names and hear what happened to

6 those people because I was living in the hope that these things would not

7 prove true.

8 Q. Well, I gather from your answer that you were somewhat surprised

9 today to learn about some of this information. Isn't it correct that you

10 testified on the first day of your testimony about a murder that occurred

11 in May in Prijedor. And I'm referring to page 25 of the transcript of the

12 3rd of February. You were asked on line 10: "Did you hear whether the

13 police killed someone in order to retaliate, to take revenge for this

14 murder?" Your answer was: "No, I'm sure this didn't happen. Because

15 since I heard about the murder of this policeman, I would have heard about

16 other events had they occurred in Prijedor."

17 So, sir, why was it that you were certain that you would have

18 heard about murders, any retaliation for the murder of this policeman, but

19 you are saying that you did not know about the murder or the killing of

20 these extremely prominent people that you knew?

21 A. I think that we have not understood each other very well. That is

22 not what I said. I will repeat now what I said. Word was about town that

23 people had gone missing, and the list of names included these names, but

24 there were other names that people were talking about as having gone

25 missing, too. Only after all these events, I met certain people among

Page 11824

1 people who had been talked about as having gone missing. For example,

2 there was news about Mr. Sakib, that he had been hurt. Fortunately, he

3 came out and left. I refused to believe that those people were gone, that

4 they had gone missing. I hoped they were still alive. And fortunately, I

5 must say again, that I was very pleased to see again that the people were

6 in fact still alive. And it's very difficult for me to face the facts now

7 as stated by you that certain people are still missing and no longer with

8 us.

9 As for events from May 1992, I think it was in mid-May, it's

10 becoming very difficult for me to focus, I'm talking about the period

11 after that, and then up to about the 20th of May, that was the period I

12 referred to when I said I didn't hear anything about retaliation.

13 Q. Sir, you talked about Dedo Crnalic, who you described as your

14 great friend on page 10 of the transcript of the 3rd of February, line

15 15. You called him a great friend of mine, an eminent sports worker in

16 Prijedor. Did you learn that while being escorted by Prijedor police to

17 Manjaca, that these police slit his throat outside of the Manjaca camp?

18 A. I did not hear of that. I don't know -- your question actually,

19 how could I have heard anything like that since I was in Prijedor? And

20 after some of those people went to Manjaca, I don't know which people

21 exactly, all traces were lost. Families were separated, and parts of some

22 families went to Zagreb or to Belgrade. It was difficult to keep track.

23 I really didn't hear anything about this.

24 Q. Sir, help me with this: You've told us that you declared yourself

25 in 1991 a Yugoslav and that you participated and helped start a peace

Page 11825

1 movement. So I gather that you were a person who was aiming for the

2 coexistence of all three nationalities in the municipality of Prijedor,

3 you believed that they could coexist in peace together. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Given that, sir, please help me understand, why is it that in

6 1993, after the disappearance of all of these individuals, after the

7 Omarska camp appeared on world news following the visit of foreign

8 journalists in August, after what you said was the forcible takeover of

9 that mine by the army, after the events and destruction of Kozarac, Stari

10 Grad, the cleansing of the Brdo region, what you described in your

11 testimony as the exodus of so many people of non-Serb nationality from

12 Prijedor, why is it that in 1993, you then joined the SDS party?

13 A. Please hear me out. I will have to elaborate. I declared myself

14 and identified myself as a Yugoslav. The reason was that I was born in

15 that state, and I loved the state of Yugoslavia. The events which

16 occurred in 1991 and 1992 led to secession which caused a great amount of

17 suffering to most of the different ethnic groups. Since 1991, I have

18 continued to be no longer a Yugoslav, but I became nothing in a way, not a

19 Serb and not a Yugoslav. Since most of my people joined together, I stuck

20 with my people, and I'm sorry that part of the people of Prijedor left, be

21 it after having been forced to leave or having left before.

22 For the period of eight months, I thought it would not have been

23 fair for me to be the president of the Executive Board without being a

24 member of the SDS. That was the only reason. And as soon as I resigned

25 after finding myself unable to implement my own policies in the Executive

Page 11826

1 Board, I resigned on the 1st of August. So you see, it lasted for about

2 eight months. This particular Prijedor government lasted for a year.

3 Mr. Travar, who was the president of the Executive Board, also resigned at

4 a later date. I don't know what the circumstances were. But this was the

5 reason, and this provides a more substantial answer to your question.

6 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. Another correction.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Vice-president --

8 MR. LUKIC: The witness said that he left the SDS party the same

9 day he resigned. So -- and it's not in the transcript.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the booth, it's 76, line 7. Did the

11 witness add to the sentence "I resigned on the 1st of August" anything?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Can the question please be restated so we can

13 get this clarified.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sure.

15 Q. Sir, is it correct that you resigned from the SDS party the same

16 day you resigned as vice-president of the Executive Board?

17 A. I resigned in writing to my position as the vice-president of the

18 Executive Board. It was not an irrevocable resignation. I told orally

19 the president of the SDS that I wanted to cease being a member, that I

20 wanted out of the party. If I was still on their books, that was their

21 problem. But let me explain why I did not file an irrevocable

22 resignation. I believe that since the assembly elected me, that I would

23 be called upon by the assembly to explain my resignation. I was never

24 invited to the assembly, and I was never given an opportunity to say why I

25 had resigned and why I was leaving the area in which people like

Page 11827

1 Mr. Kurnoga and Mr. Radanovic were moving.

2 Q. And just to be clear, Mr. Kurnoga was the president of the

3 municipality when you joined the Executive Board, and Mr. Radanovic,

4 otherwise known as Cigo, was the vice-president. Correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct. You may remember that -- I think I stated

6 yesterday or the day before yesterday, I'm finding it increasingly

7 difficult to keep focussed. I hope to be able to go on. I said that I

8 had insisted on those people resigning from their positions, and that was

9 the condition I imposed for accepting the position of president. These

10 people never resigned, and all my work was about getting these people to

11 resign and bringing new people to their positions. I failed, and that was

12 the reason why I left the Executive Board. I think the transcript must

13 reflect this.

14 That in agreement, with the SDS, there was an understanding that

15 those people would resign.

16 Q. Sir, in the period of 1992, that summer, spring and summer, a

17 great number of the directors of the largest enterprises in Prijedor were

18 dismissed. Correct, by the SDS party? Correct? Excuse me. Let me

19 withdraw the question. By the Crisis Staff, a great number of the

20 directors of the -- of enterprises in Prijedor were dismissed. Correct?

21 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. Can the counsel present such

22 a document in which the Crisis Staff is firing people.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it a real question? I would be more than

24 surprised that this would be a real question based on that --

25 MR. LUKIC: From our side or from the Prosecution side?

Page 11828

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: From your side.

2 MR. LUKIC: Let them present the document that they removed --

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When something was or is already in evidence, it

4 seems not to be necessary. But --

5 MR. LUKIC: Executive Board or Crisis Staff? The question first

6 was? Executive Board? And then the counsel asked about the Crisis

7 Staff. We know about dismissals by the Executive Board, but we are not

8 aware of dismissals by the Crisis Staff, of the directors of the

9 enterprises.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would the counsel of Prosecution please be so

11 kind and support this question.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, but first, let me just state for the record my

13 objection that I shall be allowed to conduct an examination without

14 inference of counsel. They can do re-examination, redirect, but in any

15 event. Your Honour, I have in front of me -- I would like the witness to

16 be shown S86.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As a matter of principle, in future, when a

18 document is already admitted into evidence, it's not a reason for

19 interrupting.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: And please, if the witness can also be shown S46

21 and S45.

22 Q. Sir, first if we can go to S86, my question to you was: Were you

23 aware that in the spring and summer of 1992 many directors of leading

24 enterprises in Prijedor were dismissed? And I'd like to mention some of

25 them now, looking at this document. For example, the director of the

Page 11829

1 Kozara Putavi enterprise, Mr. Husein Redzic. The director of Jela

2 industries in Kozarac, number 11, and Zijad Mahmuljin. The director of

3 the Sportska Dvorana Mladost public company, Emir Babic. The director of

4 the 4th of July public company, Jusuf Harambasic. The director of the

5 Kozara tourist socially-owned company, Mehmedalija Kapetanovic. And the

6 director of the Giro Mrakovica socially-owned company, Mirza

7 Beglerbegovic.

8 You're aware that many directors of companies were dismissed in

9 the spring and summer of 1992. Correct?

10 A. Specifically, I do know, and I even talked to this man - I'm

11 talking about Mr. Risto Banovic, who is a schoolmate of mine, an old

12 schoolmate of mine. As for the other parts, I am not familiar with this

13 document. I don't know that these things happened. Mr. Redzic, who was

14 also a neighbour of mine, I'm not sure if he left Prijedor before the

15 removal or dismissal. As for the others, to be quite honest, I wasn't

16 thinking about it, and I didn't have any contact with these people who had

17 been dismissed. This was probably done by the SDS party.

18 Q. And in fact, you were removed by the SDS party as the head of

19 Ljubija, but not until 1996. Correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct. 1996. But you forgot to mention that I said

21 that towards the end of 1992 and in 1993, there were attempts at my

22 removal, and I was surprised they didn't actually manage when Mr. Kurnoga

23 and the remaining part of the group I've told you about came to power.

24 Why didn't they succeed?

25 I gathered a number of documents on the basis of which they could

Page 11830

1 have the director replaced. There was a rule that had been introduced.

2 If the managing director was not performing his duty competently, if he

3 wasn't taking good care of the company, and if he wasn't being economical

4 in the way he was running the company, but they couldn't pin down any of

5 these elements in my work. If they had managed to, they certainly would

6 have had me dismissed.

7 Q. If you could try to keep your answers a little bit shorter, sir,

8 while still completely answering the question, would it be correct, then,

9 that no effort was made to remove you while Dr. Stakic was the president

10 of the municipality?

11 A. There were no attempts. I don't know. I said that I did my job

12 in a proper way, and these people - and this is something I mentioned. You

13 should remember this. They said, these people said: "We have the power

14 but we don't have the money." And that was why they requested

15 dismissals. And that's why I came under attack in 1993.

16 Q. Sir, you mentioned in your testimony the first day the head of the

17 SDK Hava, and I believe you did not recall her last name, but it is

18 Bahtijaragic, correct, who is the head of the SDK before the takeover of

19 the municipality?

20 A. I commented on the session, on the meeting of the businessmen

21 after the takeover. I can't remember the exact date where they were

22 present, and that's when I said that they were present. But I don't

23 remember now. That is the last name. I also referred to the managing

24 director of the -- I referred to Miro, Mr. Miro Turnisek who worked for

25 the Kras company. That's the meeting I was --

Page 11831

1 Q. Sorry to interrupt. Let me try to refresh your recollection.

2 Sir, isn't it true that Ms. Hava Bahtijaragic, a Muslim, was barred from

3 entering the SDK the day of the takeover and she was replaced by Slobodan

4 Garjanovic [phoen]?

5 A. I don't know whether she was allowed to enter the building and who

6 replaced her. I just talked about the session at which she was present,

7 and Mr. Cehajic was also there and other people. To be honest, I actually

8 left that session.

9 Q. Actually that session you're talking about regarding the

10 redirection of funds from Sarajevo to Banja Luka occurred before the

11 takeover. Isn't that true? Because Mr. Cehajic was still the president

12 of the municipality during that meeting. Does that refresh your

13 recollection?

14 A. I think that this is a misunderstanding. Let me go back to that

15 session. After the takeover when all of these people that I just

16 mentioned were present, I don't know of any such meetings where the

17 redirection of funds would be discussed. I don't know of any such

18 meetings.

19 Q. Let me move on, sir.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: If the witness could be shown S46 first.

21 Q. Briefly, sir, if you look at the document, it indicates that the

22 Crisis Staff president, signed by Dr. Milomir Stakic, it's forwarding a

23 decision from the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina for

24 implementation. And then if you look at S45, you will see that that is

25 the decision being forwarded --

Page 11832

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we please have the English documents on the

2 ELMO, please. First, 46, then 45.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: This is 45. Your Honour wanted to see 46 first, I

4 believe. Did Your Honour get to see 46? Okay. Thank you.

5 Q. Sir, the decision of the Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff

6 which hopefully you have a copy of in front of you, it ends with the ERN

7 number 633170, yes, if I can briefly read out the first part of the

8 decision. "All executive posts involving a likely flow of information,

9 posts involving the protection of public property, that is, all posts

10 important for the functioning of economy may only be held by the personnel

11 of Serbian nationality. This refers to all socially-owned enterprises,

12 joint stock companies, state institutions, public utilities, ministries of

13 the interior, and the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina. These posts may not be held by employees of Serbian

15 nationality who have not confirmed by plebiscite or who in their minds

16 have not made it ideologically clear that the Serbian democratic party is

17 the sole representative of the Serbian people."

18 My question for you, sir, is first: In this middle paragraph when

19 it refers to all socially-owned enterprises, joint stock companies, state

20 institutions, would that include in your mind the Ljubija iron ore mines?

21 A. I said yesterday that in the heading where it says DPRZR Ljubija,

22 the full title is the state-owned company, the iron ore mines Ljubija.

23 And now the answer to your question is the state-owned company.

24 Q. Did you receive this decision? Do you recall receiving this

25 decision before you did those dismissals you talked about, about 1600

Page 11833

1 dismissals you signed?

2 A. No, not at all. I see this decision for the first time in my

3 life. I've never seen it before.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Could the witness be shown S84. If the English

6 could be put on the ELMO, please.

7 Q. Sir, we see that S84 is a decision dated the 2nd of July, 1992,

8 signed "president of the Crisis Staff, Milomir Stakic. Copies to all

9 parties mentioned in the order and files." And the order is in paragraph

10 1: "All organs, enterprises, and communities are ordered to terminate the

11 employment of workers who have participated in the armed rebellion and who

12 are currently in Omarska and Keraterm."

13 Sir, as a person with experience in government, as the former

14 manager of the largest enterprise in Prijedor, can you tell me would it

15 make sense for this order to be sent to enterprises without a list of

16 those individuals who were imprisoned in Omarska and Keraterm?

17 A. I didn't understand the question. Can you please repeat it.

18 Q. You've talked a little bit about Dr. Stakic. In your dealings

19 with him, was he a rational, intelligent person?

20 A. I think that he was of an average rationality or of an average

21 intelligence. That is all I can say. I do not belong to the profession

22 that could give you a more appropriate answer to that. I'm talking just

23 as a person who knew him, who knows him.

24 Q. Sir, in this order signed by Dr. Stakic, the first paragraph:

25 "Orders enterprises," and I presume the Ljubija mine would be considered

Page 11834

1 an organ or enterprise, "to terminate the employment of workers currently

2 in Omarska and Keraterm." Would it make sense to you for Dr. Stakic to

3 send this to an enterprise without informing the enterprise of which

4 workers were in Omarska and Keraterm?

5 A. I really don't know how I'm supposed to answer. I don't

6 understand this order. I apologise. Just give me a moment, please. I've

7 read the order, but I do not understand what should be enclosed or what

8 would be logical to have with it. What else would one need to have

9 together with this order? I really don't understand. I don't understand

10 what would be logical.

11 Q. Well, sir, it would be logical that you would need to know which

12 of your workers like some of the individuals in the photograph we showed

13 you, the two directors, were in the Omarska camp in order to know who it

14 was you were supposed to fire. Isn't that true?

15 A. Let me first tell you that I did not have this order. Secondly,

16 let me tell you that I have already stated in my testimony that one or two

17 or three months after the beginning of the crisis, I did what I did, what

18 I had to do. I also have to say that the president of the Executive

19 Board, Mr. Mandic whose first name I cannot recall, he asked me to show

20 him the documents. I did not give them to him. He sent his inspectors,

21 but I thought that this was confidential material, that it was my

22 company's secret. And that is why I reported him to the misdemeanours

23 court, because I didn't allow anybody to interfere with my work, with the

24 things I was doing in order to establish how many people were still on my

25 payroll, how many people I was still supposed to pay salaries to.

Page 11835

1 Q. Sir, did you receive the information about which of your employees

2 were in the Omarska or Keraterm camp? Can you answer that yes or no. Did

3 you receive that information?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. And your company was at that time the largest employer in Prijedor

6 Municipality. Correct?

7 A. Yes. But again, can you give me the relevant period? Throughout

8 the period starting with the 1980s up to these events, my company did

9 indeed have the largest number of employees. And if my memory serves me

10 well, I believe that I have mentioned it already here in this Court that

11 when I became the director on the 1st of February, 1991, there were 4.630

12 employees. I've already mentioned that. I don't know whether I have

13 given you the ethnic background, but I believe I did.

14 Q. Sir, you're not on trial here. Let me just remind you of that.

15 All I'm asking in these questions, I'm just asking you for the answer to

16 specific questions.

17 Sir, you brought with you to Court, and we saw the first day, a

18 list of several employees who had gone to work on, I believe, the 4th of

19 May. Where did you get those papers from?

20 A. I'm aware that I'm not on trial here. And as for these documents

21 that I have shown to you, I got them from the heads and directors of

22 sectors and departments. All these documents are signed. They are

23 original signatures. But I must say something: Before that time, there

24 was a significant decrease in the rate of production, and a lot of people

25 were on paid leave. They were on standby. A lot of people had moved from

Page 11836

1 Prijedor already in late 1991. I could not -- there was no way for me to

2 check who of the 4.630 people had left, who were on standby. I had to

3 gather some documents, and I had to trust the respective heads of

4 departments and sectors who gave me these documents, who gave me these

5 lists of names.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. And I'm just going to try to encourage you

7 to limit your answers to the questions because I know you're tired, and if

8 you can concentrate on the question, we can finish sooner. I asked you

9 where you got them from, and you said the directors. When did you receive

10 these documents? In 1992 or more recently?

11 A. In 1992. These are original documents bearing original signatures

12 of the persons who drew up those lists, and they bear the original

13 stamps. And this can all be verified.

14 Q. You told us that you left the company or were replaced by the SDS

15 in 1996. Why is it, sir, that you maintained possession of these lists of

16 names from 1992?

17 A. My file -- when I left the mines, I moved my file, my very huge

18 file - mind you I had spent 30 years in the mines starting with the

19 foreman to the general direction, so I found that in my file. When I

20 spoke in Prijedor with Mr. Lukic, I didn't mention these lists because I

21 was not aware of having them. When I then went home, I inspected my

22 file. I came by those documents, and I deemed that they would be

23 interesting for the Honourable Trial Chamber to see.

24 Q. Among the documents that you maintained, did you also maintain the

25 dismissals? I believe -- you can correct me, but I believe you indicated

Page 11837

1 you dismissed 1600 individuals. Do you have records of those signed

2 dismissals?

3 A. 1.600 times three copies, it's another huge file that can be found

4 in the legal services of the mines. I believe that these documents are

5 still there in the files. So this is something that I did not have at

6 home in my personal file.

7 Q. I'm going to leave the subject of employment and move on to a

8 different subject.

9 Sir, you talked about some interactions you had with members of

10 the Crisis Staff in the night shift in the communications centre in the

11 basement of the Prijedor Municipality. Correct? Can you tell us, why

12 were you there?

13 A. Firstly, I would like to say this was not in the communications

14 centre but in the office next to the early warning and information

15 centre. I will tell you exactly why, but don't take this as a joke. I

16 went to play cards. I just went to keep them company and to play cards

17 with them.

18 Q. And who were you playing cards with?

19 A. With Mr. Milomir Stakic, with Mr. -- from the all people's

20 defence, Mr. Slavko Budimir. Kovacevic did not play cards.

21 Q. Was Dr. Stakic in uniform when you saw him there?

22 A. I really don't remember.

23 Q. Can you tell us, based upon your experience the next year working

24 for the municipality, how many employees did Prijedor Municipality have?

25 A. Believe me, I really don't know, but there were more employees

Page 11838

1 than in Doboj, and still Doboj was a larger municipality than Prijedor. I

2 can't tell you exactly, but there were over a hundred people working

3 there. But I never knew the exact data. There were six or seven

4 secretariats. In each of them were 25 to 30 people, so you can come by

5 using arithmetic -- so you can come to an approximate figure. I wouldn't

6 be able to tell you.

7 Q. Your testimony is that you believe that the president of the

8 municipality did a night shift to answer the phone about complaints about

9 electricity, water, and roads, that the president of the municipality

10 himself, his job was to answer the phone all night and take these

11 telephone calls?

12 A. Let me tell you, he was on call in night shifts on behalf of the

13 Crisis Staff. Whether his post allowed him to do that or not, I don't

14 know. In any case, what I have told you is God's honest truth.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just for clarification, on the transcript, and

16 it was your question, you spoke about the president of the municipality.

17 I think you wanted to say president of the Municipal Assembly or am I

18 incorrect?

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I think I will in the future use that

20 term, or president of the Crisis Staff in this particular era, or

21 president of the National Defence Council. We have a number of different

22 titles.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I only want to be on the safe side that in

24 future nobody can say that the witness may have maybe referred to the

25 president of the Executive Board.

Page 11839

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

2 Q. The president of the Municipal Assembly, Dr. Stakic, your

3 testimony is, sir, that he took an all-night shift to answer phone calls,

4 complaints about electricity and water, when there were over a hundred

5 employees of the municipality. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. There were so many employees working in the morning shift,

7 in the first shift. And this is the on-call duty during the night,

8 between 10.00 in the evening and the morning. And I've already told you

9 that I would arrive there around 9.00 in the evening, and I would come

10 back around midnight, never later than that.

11 Q. Sir, you were asked some questions about the statute of the

12 municipality and the role of the president of the Municipal Assembly in

13 that statute. Can you tell me, are you aware of anything in the statute

14 of Prijedor Municipality, the law of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or the law of

15 Yugoslavia that would indicate that a minority of deputies, 28, could

16 forcibly take over the assembly and expel the majority from different

17 nationalities?

18 A. I can't answer that. This is a legal issue. But this is what

19 happened. That is what happened on the 30th of April, there was a

20 takeover. And if you want my position on that, I can share it with you.

21 Because whenever I do share my position, they tell me I'm wrong. The SDS

22 did not take over power on the 30th of April. It was the army and the

23 police that took over, and the SDS followed in their footsteps.

24 Q. Sir, you gave several opinions about the operation of the

25 statute. I know you're not a lawyer. My question was: Am I correct and

Page 11840

1 do I gather from your last answer that this takeover was outside of the

2 law? It was against all of the laws of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Prijedor,

3 and Yugoslavia?

4 A. I hope you won't hold it against me if I say, and I have to say

5 it, that the referendum that took place in Bosnia and Herzegovina was also

6 against the law, but still it was honoured. And as to this, what you're

7 asking me now, again, I can't say that it was against the law.

8 Q. You told us that the statute of the municipality provided that the

9 president be elected, and would be correct that he be elected by all the

10 deputies representing all the people of Prijedor? Is that correct?

11 A. I don't remember having said that. The deputies in the

12 municipality elected in multiparty elections elected the president of the

13 municipality. But before that, there was an interparty agreement on

14 various posts, on the post of the president of the municipality and on the

15 post of the vice-president of the municipality.

16 Q. Thank you. I was referring to yesterday's transcript, the 3rd of

17 February, on page 14, where you said -- excuse me, page 14, line 21 where

18 you said: "I think it needs to be pointed out that the president of the

19 Municipal Assembly is elected at a session of this assembly, usually it

20 has to be a prominent citizen, highly regarded, both as a man and a

21 humanitarian person, a person, a citizen, with certain merits."

22 Sir, the assembly elected Muhamed Cehajic as the president and

23 never elected Dr. Stakic, is it correct, as the president of the Municipal

24 Assembly?

25 A. Again, you have put me in an awkward position. I've told you the

Page 11841

1 Municipal Assembly was in session after the multiparty elections. There

2 was a previous agreement on who would be appointed the president of the

3 Municipal Assembly, who would be appointed the vice-president of the

4 Municipal Assembly, and then after that, there was a long discussion

5 between the party on the distribution of various sectors in the executive

6 branch of the government. We had a problem. There was a stalemate in the

7 elected Executive Board, and decisions could not be passed for that

8 reason. What I'm saying now I am basing on what I heard in a recent

9 conversation with Mr. Dragic.

10 Q. Is it correct that the only body that elected Dr. Stakic was the

11 SDS as the president of the Municipal Assembly of the Serbian Municipality

12 of Prijedor?

13 A. I did not attend the session when this was done. I don't know. I

14 think I mentioned at one point, because that's something I knew. I knew

15 that the session was attended, that members, representatives of the

16 communist party took part in the work of that session.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Does Your Honour want me to proceed or give the

18 witness a short break?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can please have a short break,

20 Your Honour, if you'll allow.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The time is extremely limited. Would it be

22 convenient for you a break of, say, 5 minutes?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So the trial stays adjourned until 10 minutes

25 past 4.00.

Page 11842












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11843

1 --- Break taken at 4.04 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Koumjian, please proceed.


5 Q. Sir, Mr. Marjanovic, in 1993, did you receive a gun permit signed

6 by Simo Drljaca?

7 A. Yes, I did. I will try to explain this as briefly as possible,

8 the origin of the whole thing and what exactly happened. During 1991,

9 1992, and 1993, I was negotiating with Sarkid, it's a metal factory based

10 in Serbia, for Ljubija to be annexed by the association, by the company.

11 Dusan Matkovic was its general director. I was attending a session of the

12 Serbian government presided over by I think the man's name was

13 Radmanovic. We needed to agree on the details.

14 If you remember, at one point I mentioned that Mr. Simo Drljaca

15 spent quite some time in Novi Sad. He became friends with the minister

16 for the agriculture, Mr. Lovric, there. Mr. Lovric would come to

17 Prijedor, and through Lovric, Mr. Matkovic sent me a gun as a present, a

18 pistol. I don't know the exact type, but it was Zastava 89, the make. In

19 order to be able to own this weapon legally, it was put down as a present

20 from the public security centre.

21 Q. And Mr. Drljaca signed the permit. Is that correct?

22 A. I think that's correct.

23 Q. Just while we're on the subject of Mr. Drljaca, you mentioned a

24 reserve policeman who was paralysed and in a wheelchair, wounded in the

25 spine. Does the name Zoran Babic, does that ring a bell as being the name

Page 11844

1 of that reserve policeman?

2 A. The policeman's name was Dejan Dejanovic.

3 Q. Okay, thank you.

4 A. Excuse me. He is a Croat.

5 Q. Sir, you talked about the announcement which you said you -- which

6 was read in Court which you said someone gave to you, and this was the

7 announcement of the takeover of the municipality of Prijedor. Can you

8 tell us, who did you get that announcement from?

9 A. The announcement, that was after the takeover. It was broadcast

10 on Radio Prijedor on the 30th of April in the morning. I think I

11 mentioned that during that day, I went to the municipal building, and I

12 was given this announcement by a journalist, Mr. Rajlic, who worked for a

13 while as a journalist at the Ljubija iron ore mine.

14 Q. Why did Mr. Rajlic give you a copy of the announcement, to the

15 best of your knowledge?

16 A. I wanted to know what was in the announcement because I didn't

17 listen to the radio. I was at work. I was interested to know. I got it

18 from him. I'm not even sure why I kept it, to be quite honest. However,

19 it remained with me.

20 Q. So you got that announcement. You kept it in your home or in your

21 office for the last ten years?

22 A. In my office, all the documents -- I kept all the documents in my

23 office until 1996. When I left the iron ore mine, I gathered up all my

24 stuff, things of that nature. So all my agendas, notebooks, notes, work

25 programmes, and notes on the implementation of work programmes. Part of

Page 11845

1 the documents was randomly put away in boxes, in cardboard boxes. And

2 when I went to work for the Nemetal company, I began sorting the documents

3 and this happened to be among the documents that were preserved.

4 Q. Am I correct from hearing your last answer that you did not

5 yourself hear the announcement on the radio?

6 A. I know that it was announced in the morning because I was told

7 later. But to be quite honest, I didn't listen to it. At a later stage,

8 I think the announcement was repeated several times throughout the day.

9 And it is my submission that I did actually listen to it in the

10 afternoon. It was read out by a journalist, a Muslim journalist, a

11 colleague of mine from elementary school, an ex-schoolmate of mine. But

12 I'm tired now, I can't remember the name. But I did hear it read out by a

13 journalist of Radio Prijedor.

14 Q. By a man? Your colleague was a man or a woman, who read the

15 announcement?

16 A. A man. It was a man. That was just after 12.00, after noon, or

17 about 1.00 in the afternoon. I think it was read many times during that

18 afternoon, but I can't remember the name.

19 Q. Well, the only male Muslim working for the radio at that time was

20 Mr. Muharem Nezirovic. Is that correct?

21 A. Thank you very much for reminding me. Yes, it was him I listened

22 to. But he was not the only one reading the announcement. I think there

23 were other lady Muslim journalists and another man. I can't say with any

24 precision. But I think there was a man name -- a journalist name

25 Hadziahmetovic. I think he was one of the editors at Radio Prijedor, and

Page 11846

1 he stayed for quite a long time. He was handicapped.

2 Q. Do you know who was it was that went to the radio station with the

3 announcement on behalf of the individuals behind the takeover?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Did it appear to you that this announcement had been prepared

6 prior to the 30th of April? Did you have any information that this was

7 prepared prior to the 30th of April, 1992?

8 A. I didn't have any such information. I didn't even have

9 information that this event would take place. I found out at 5.00 in the

10 morning, as I've said before, when I was called to the iron ore mine where

11 I found uniformed persons, none of which I knew. They requested and

12 insisted that the work force remain in place, and that at 7.00, when they

13 come to work, they should continue to work as usual.

14 Q. Why was it that these men in uniform, did they explain to you why

15 they wanted you to be in the hallway when the employees entered?

16 A. They wanted me to tell them that they should just continue

17 working.

18 Q. Do you know -- did you hear that Dr. Stakic was on the radio the

19 morning of the takeover explaining the takeover?

20 A. No, I didn't hear of that. Even the first announcement, I didn't,

21 but they told me later on that a young lady read it out.

22 Q. Did you see posters in the town of Prijedor where you lived and

23 worked after the takeover explaining the takeover?

24 A. I don't remember. I really don't remember. The way from my flat

25 to my work, it's maybe 50 metres long. I don't remember ever having seen

Page 11847

1 any posters or anything there.

2 Q. You told us today that you believe that the takeover was done by

3 the army and the police. Isn't it correct that you testified on the first

4 day you testified, that it was the SDS -- excuse me, page 31, line 8 of

5 the 3rd of February, "it was the party, the SDS party, that was behind

6 this announcement." Would it be correct that the announcement of the

7 takeover was done by the SDS party?

8 A. I said today, and I clearly stressed that this was my personal

9 view. I believe I said my conviction was that uniformed persons dealt

10 with the problem, and only afterwards did the SDS appoint people. I think

11 this is exactly what I said.

12 Q. So from what you observed, there was coordination between the army

13 and the SDS and the takeover, correct, from what you actually observed in

14 Prijedor?

15 A. I can't say this for certain. I'm talking about events at the

16 iron ore mine where I found uniformed persons. Whether there was any

17 coordination, I really can't say. I was not a member, so I couldn't know

18 what was going on.

19 Q. Another brief topic: Sir, you indicated that when you were a

20 member of the SDS, you were appointed to the commission for information

21 and propaganda. What was the purpose of that commission?

22 A. I believe -- well, it's been a long time. It's difficult to

23 remember, but I did say this in my statement. I disagreed with the

24 concept, and the concept was about creating the conditions for material,

25 equipment, for extra space to be awarded to us on radio, TV, and the

Page 11848

1 media. My attitude was different from theirs, and I was not kicked out of

2 the commission, but I was never called back. I was never invited again.

3 I remember that Mr. Kantar was the president of that commission.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have a few more brief topics, but

5 the next one would require the use of three documents. It may take

6 several minutes.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As to the fact that we, in any event, can't

8 conclude the testimony today, I think it's appropriate to call it a day

9 for now.

10 The trial stays adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00, Courtroom III.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

12 at 4.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

13 the 6th day of February, 2003,

14 at 9.00 a.m.