Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11849

1 Thursday, 6 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning. Please be seated.

6 May I ask Madam Registrar, please, to call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the appearances, please.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honour. Nicholas Koumjian with

11 Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And for the Defence.

13 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and John

14 Ostojic for the Defence.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before I ask the usher to escort the witness

16 into the courtroom, after re-examining yesterday's transcript, it has to

17 be emphasised that it is for the Trial Chamber and solely for the Trial

18 Chamber to intervene in such cases where they believe that a question is

19 not based on evidence or other admissible material or, to put it the other

20 way around, that a question is absolutely unbased or out of the blue.

21 Therefore, Mr. Lukic, we regard your question when the witness was

22 asked whether or not persons were dismissed by the Crisis Staff, and you

23 intervened at that time asking the other counsel to present a document in

24 which the Crisis Staff is firing people on the basis of the admitted

25 evidence, this intervention only can be called a frivolous objection. And

Page 11850

1 please refrain from doing so in the future.

2 May I ask now the usher to escort the witness into the courtroom.

3 Thank you.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning. We hope you feel well today, and

6 the same rules apply as yesterday, especially now when you are sitting far

7 away and I can't really see whether you have a problem or not. Please,

8 immediately tell us when you need a break.

9 May I ask, Mr. Koumjian, please, to start.

10 WITNESS: OSTOJA MARJANOVIC [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. Your Honour, could the witness be

13 provided with the following documents, S77, S178, and S308.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Koumjian: [Continued]

15 Q. Sir, yesterday and beginning on page 12 of yesterday's transcript,

16 you were asked some questions by Mr. Lukic about whether you know if the

17 army or the police, did they get their salaries from the municipality or

18 from the republic, or in the case of the army, from the federal state

19 prior to that period.

20 Sir, it's a well-known fact, is it not, that the Federal Republic

21 of Yugoslavia was paying the salary of officers of the former JNA, the

22 army of Republika Srpska, up until just a very short time ago, within the

23 last couple years. Correct?

24 A. It is correct. The officers of the former JNA who were on the

25 territory of Republika Srpska or Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is, and who

Page 11851

1 originate from that area, who are the natives of that area, I believe that

2 they were paid from that source up until two years ago.

3 Q. And unless it's necessary, I won't read all of your answer because

4 it's rather lengthy, it continues on page 13. But you indicated that the

5 budget for the soldiers was not paid by the municipality except for budget

6 for families of soldiers. I'll start reading on page 13, line 9. Just to

7 be complete, I'll start reading from page 13, line 3: "I'm certain that

8 the army was paid and supplied from the budget of the former Yugoslavia or

9 from the Republic budget. They did have a number of privileges for the

10 same reason. That's prior to 1992, the same system continued in 1992,

11 1991, 1992, and 1993. Probably even after that. I must point out that in

12 1994, there was a situation that represented a small aberration from what

13 I was telling you about. The Executive Board in 1994 secured part of the

14 budget funds from part of the budget for the families of soldiers who had

15 been on the front. I think this can be traced to the documents of the

16 Municipal Assembly."

17 And then you continued - and I'm interested in this last sentence,

18 sir - and said: "As for the MUP, I don't think I can give you a precise

19 answer. I suppose that they were probably paid from the budget, but I

20 noted the MUP was not paid from the municipal budget in 1994."

21 I have three documents I'd like to show you, given that you

22 indicated you had some uncertainty. The first is S77. Sir, you'll see

23 it's signed by Dr. Stakic, and you've already told us who Ranko Travar was

24 and Simo Drljaca. Do you know Radovan Rajlic?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 11852

1 Q. What was his position in 1992?

2 A. He was a soldier in the 43rd Brigade.

3 Q. Thank you. If you look at the first paragraph, sir, you'll see

4 that it indicates conclusion, Simo Drljaca, Ranko Travar, and Radovan

5 Rajlic are charged with making a comprehensive review of the possibilities

6 and set criteria and recommendations to the Crisis Staff -- and

7 recommending to the Crisis Staff a manner of payment to and catering for

8 the army and the police in the Prijedor Municipality. And this is dated

9 the 16th of June, 1992.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the usher to put the English version

11 always at the same time on the ELMO.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Mr. Usher, that was 77A would be the English

13 version.

14 Q. Sir, while that's being done, isn't it correct that Mr. Travar was

15 secretary for the economy of the municipality and a member of the Crisis

16 Staff?

17 A. Yes, I believe that he was.

18 Q. Before I get your comments, I'll show you all three documents once

19 Your Honours have had a better chance to read through the one that's on

20 the screen now.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: If Your Honours would just indicate to me when

22 you're ready. Okay, if we could now have S308.

23 Q. Sir, this is a document - please take your time and review it -

24 dated the 5th of June, 1992. On the bottom, it's indicated it's signed by

25 the president, Dr. Milomir Stakic. And among the addressees on the bottom

Page 11853

1 left are all enterprises, organisations, and sociopolitical communities.

2 I don't think it's necessary to read the entire document. I'll just read

3 the first sentence. The conclusion is on the method of calculation and

4 payment of salaries and enterprises, organisations, and sociopolitical

5 communities for the month of May. And then I'll just direct your

6 attention to the paragraph below number 4 which states:

7 "Employees serving in the military and police units will not receive their

8 salaries from the cashier unless they produce a certificate issued by the

9 competent military command, Zarko Zrenjanin barracks - forgive my

10 pronunciation - or the Prijedor public security station."

11 Now, the last document, if we're ready to move on, would be S178.

12 And I ask that be put on last because it's dated the 20th of March, 1996.

13 Sir, in March 1996, was Milomir Stakic again holding the position of

14 president of the Municipal Assembly, in March of 1996?

15 A. If my memory serves me well, I believe that he was.

16 Q. Thank you. We understand that exact dates are difficult to

17 recall. Sir, this document indicates that it's an extract from the

18 minutes of an extraordinary session of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly

19 Defence council. My first question to you is: What was the Prijedor

20 Municipal Assembly Defence council, if you know?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Among those who attended this meeting which occurred according to

23 the date after the Dayton agreement was Dr. Milomir Stakic, president of

24 the Municipal Assembly; Pero Colic, assistant commander of operations

25 group 10; Lieutenant-Colonel Radovan Smitran, commander of the 43rd

Page 11854

1 Prijedor Motorised Brigade; Major Radovan Ilic, commander of the 5th

2 Kozara Brigade; and Slavko Budimir, chief of the Ministry of Defence

3 section. It appears the meeting was chaired by Dr. Stakic, and discussed

4 several issues. In the interests of time, I am just going to try to just

5 select parts of those. If counsel likes, I can read the rest.

6 Item number 2 on page 3 of the English, and for your benefit, sir,

7 I believe that's conclusions number 2, "representatives of the army must

8 send in writing all requests regarding army requirements, finances, land,

9 buildings, flats, building and other types of material and equipment to

10 the Prijedor Municipality executive committee. Requests must be specific

11 and itemised."

12 And I'm going to skip down to number 6: "Representatives of the

13 army shall be recommended to retain as much as possible the vehicles

14 classified as war booty, particularly those that are special purpose.

15 They should be stored and lent for temporary use by enterprises in the

16 municipality according to special procedures."

17 And then number 7: "Bearing in mind the serious material

18 situation in the municipality, the municipality could temporarily provide

19 pay for a maximum of 1.000 to 1200 members of the army."

20 Sir, having reviewed these three documents, would you agree with

21 me that the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor under Dr. Stakic and the Crisis

22 Staff did work on matters of salaries and pay for the army and the police

23 in 1992?

24 A. I will have to elaborate a bit, and I will comment on the

25 statement that I issued yesterday. I was talking about the period between

Page 11855

1 October 1993 and 1st of August, 1994. And when I was the president of the

2 Executive Board, I did not have the payment records. If this happened at

3 the time, I don't know. But these documents belong to an earlier period

4 which I couldn't know about these things.

5 The second thing is very important, and that is that all this

6 time, we were in the conditions of an immediate threat of war, and this

7 war was declared in 1995. I cannot quote any of the laws from that time,

8 but I know how I was supposed to behave. Companies were supposed to pay

9 salaries to their workers who were militarily engaged, and the army was

10 supposed to reimburse that. I don't think that we were ever reimbursed.

11 I don't know what the situation was in 1992 in terms of reimbursement.

12 In 1996, I believe that Mr. Stakic was the president. The Dayton

13 Accords which were signed on the 21st of December, 1995, we all know what

14 happened then. According to the Dayton Accords, I believe that the army

15 belonged to different entities, and the Republika Srpska had the right to

16 have their army. There was the delineation between the Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina federation and Republika Srpska. And then the conditions were

18 being put in place, please understand me when I say that. I am just

19 assuming, and that doesn't mean that this is correct.

20 At that time, Republika Srpska could not have a budget from which

21 to pay the army. For that reason, I assume that the 43rd Brigade and the

22 5th Kozara Brigade, and I believe that it says here in the text that

23 people should be demobilised to the largest possible extent, I believe

24 that for that reason, a decision was made that this should be paid from

25 the municipality or that municipality would be the provider for that part

Page 11856

1 of the army.

2 Q. Thank you. Sir, based on your experience as a leading

3 businessman; as, for a while, a member of the government; and having

4 served in the armed forces first in the time of the federal republic; and

5 later during the wars after the breakup of Yugoslavia, would you agree

6 with me that the concept of all people's defence as the name implies calls

7 for a close coordination between the military, the civilians, and the

8 business sector all in furtherance of a united war effort? Is that the

9 idea of "all people's defence"?

10 A. It is very hard for me to comment on that because I was not

11 familiar with the laws at that time. But what I can say, that all

12 people's defence implied different conditions. I hope you won't mind when

13 I say that this was the concept of Defence that prevailed in the entire

14 Yugoslavia. This concept could not continue in view of the secession of

15 Slovenia and Croatia. And now, please, allow me if I say that it could

16 not be applied in the civil war that took place in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17 Q. Let me move on to another subject. Sir, on page 65 of the

18 transcript, the first day you testified, which I guess was Tuesday, the

19 5th of February, you were -- let me get the quote for you, sir, what you

20 stated so that I don't misquote it.

21 Sorry, I have the wrong day. I have the wrong transcript in my

22 hand. It's the 3rd of February. It's the first day, as I stated, but the

23 3rd of February. And beginning on line 1, you stated: "Not only in the

24 area of Kozarac, but there were also barricades in villages so to say.

25 The people organised themselves, they put up defence - and I'm sorry but

Page 11857

1 that transcript is missing a word - and suggestions came from the Crisis

2 Staff for the obstacles could be removed so the traffic could start moving

3 freely. And in most cases, it bore fruit, but in this case it was

4 fruitless."

5 Sir, where do you hear of these suggestions from the Crisis Staff

6 for the removal of obstacles?

7 A. Please allow me to illustrate this by confirming that there were

8 barricade, that there were obstacles even at places where this was not

9 necessary. It happened to me when I was travelling from Tuzla that I was

10 stopped by uniformed guys. They searched my car, and they took quite a

11 lot of things from the car. Later on, I read in the press that they were

12 rogue policemen who were looting in that area. The reaction was that

13 people organised themselves in certain areas and certain villages. I

14 believe that I have already said it, as tensions increased, and everybody

15 was afraid, people were afraid. And I heard on Radio Prijedor and on

16 television the thing that you asked me about.

17 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us, you used the word "suggestions"

18 from the Crisis Staff. On these radio and television announcements, did

19 they say the Crisis Staff suggests to people that they remove the

20 barricades? Did they use that word, or did they use a stronger word?

21 A. I think I may have used the wrong term. I can't remember the very

22 wording, but I think it may even have been an order.

23 Q. Thank you. Sir, on page 56 of the same day's transcript, you

24 talked about an incident that happened -- let me read your entire answer

25 to try to put it into context beginning on line 9. You were asked by

Page 11858

1 Mr. Lukic: "Were you ever present at the handover of any weapons?" And

2 you answered: "It happened a little before these fatal events in

3 Prijedor. It was sometime between the 15th and 20th of May. I can't be

4 more precise than that. I went to see the secretary for agriculture in

5 the Prijedor Municipal Assembly, Mr. Ranko Travar. And on my way in, I

6 met an acquaintance from Cereci - I may be mispronouncing it. Those

7 times -- and it was a long time ago, so I can't remember his name. And he

8 was seeking to extend the deadline for the return of weapons. And I heard

9 them talking about this in the entrance because they hadn't managed to

10 complete that part of the job."

11 Sir, the gentleman from Cereci - and you can correct my

12 pronunciation if I'm mispronouncing that - who was he speaking to?

13 A. With your permission, I will correct you in two respects. First

14 of all, I went to see the secretary for the economy. And secondly, the

15 name of the village is Cereci. I know that it may be difficult to

16 pronounce. One detail that really struck in my memory was that the man

17 was quite frightened, and he was seeking extension for the deadline for

18 the turnover of weapons. I think I said after that that there were

19 soldiers standing in the immediate vicinity. I couldn't tell who exactly

20 he was addressing in order to seek extension. I think he was asking for

21 two hours more. Part of the weapons, he said as he was passing by, had

22 already been returned. That's what was said, but I can't tell who he was

23 seeking extension from.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. And just so we're clear, when you say for the

25 secretary for the economy, that was Mr. Travar's title at the time.

Page 11859

1 Correct?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. And this village, Cereci, is that located within the municipality

4 of Prijedor?

5 A. That's very close to the town itself. I think it's even

6 considered part of the town. I know this village quite well. It's a

7 60 per cent Muslim village, and then also Croatians and Serbs living

8 there. A relative of mine was married there, and when these unfortunate

9 events started happening, part of -- some of the people from that village

10 were spending time at my house.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where in the Municipal Assembly

12 building did you overhear this conversation?

13 A. At the entrance to the building.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 I believe it was on yesterday's transcript, I have page 54, line

16 5, you were discussing the fact that some of the equipment from the

17 Ljubija mine was mobilised, and for that equipment, you received a list,

18 some paper. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, yes, that's correct. This document was actually a

20 mobilisation list. It's an army document, the army sends the document

21 certifying that the army had taken possession of something and that it

22 hadn't been stolen so you knew where it was. So in case the equipment was

23 destroyed during the war, there would be damages paid for these

24 equipments.

25 Q. Sir, you testified that the Omarska facility was taken over by

Page 11860

1 force by the military and police. Did you receive any such paper

2 regarding the mobilisation of all of the equipment of the mine that you

3 were responsible for as the chief officer of the company, that the army

4 had taken over?

5 A. To be quite accurate, in the first phase, I got such certificates

6 for all the mobile equipment that had been engaged by the army. But I did

7 not receive any document after the facilities at Omarska were taken over.

8 Then it happened in the late 1995 and early 1996. They offered a contract

9 for the army to come in with their people and stay there in the facilities

10 in order to set up their own barracks there. I never signed this

11 contract. I never agreed with them, but completely irregardless of that,

12 and in spite of the fact that I never signed an agreement with them, they

13 came in and occupied the premises.

14 Q. Thank you. I'm concentrating -- I'll try to concentrate this

15 morning on 1992. Sir, in 1992, after the camp investigation centre -

16 whatever you want to call it - in Omarska was set up, you indicated that

17 was in late May. For the period between that and when the foreign

18 journalists visited Omarska, which to remind you was August the 5th, I

19 believe, but just to be clear, let's take the months of June and July.

20 For those two months, June and July of 1992, did the Ljubija mines

21 continue to have on its payroll those employees of the mine at Omarska who

22 were working at the camp?

23 A. I believe that yesterday when we watched the tape, I said that we

24 had managed to get funds from Smederevo and from a department store in

25 Banja Luka to pay the people their salaries. But after that, the workers

Page 11861

1 of none of the three ethnic backgrounds received any further salary simply

2 because there were no funds to pay the salaries from.

3 Q. Sir, were people such as electricians at the Omarska mine of

4 Serbian ethnicity, did they remain on the payroll -- whether they received

5 their salary or not, did they remain on the payroll of the Ljubija mine

6 company while working at the camp?

7 A. It's really difficult for me to find the right words to provide

8 you with an adequate answer. What I can tell you is that no one selected

9 payrolls at that time. And please remind me, I said that in 1993, I did

10 sign dismissals so that we could have a definite situation concerning the

11 work force at the iron ore mine.

12 The president of the Executive Board asked for these lists, but I

13 wouldn't give them to him. It was a secret the company had to keep. It

14 was a secret document. So they were all on these lists but no salaries

15 were paid at that time. It was only at a later stage in 1994 when we got

16 some funding from Smederevo, we paid the salary again. And then there was

17 an embargo imposed on Republika Srpska, and even that stopped.

18 Q. Sir, I'm going to move on to a different subject, and that is you

19 were discussing yesterday with Mr. Lukic the removal of Dr. Stakic from

20 the position of president of the Municipal Assembly, and that movement

21 that began in late 1992 led to his removal in early 1993. You said

22 beginning on page 9, the top line: "I did know some of these people.

23 They were members of the SDS, and there was a belligerent group, a

24 belligerent faction there, a group of people who were -- were not happy

25 with the assembly's work up to that point. They weren't happy with the

Page 11862

1 way Dr. Stakic led the assembly, chaired the assembly. Dusan Kurnoga was

2 among those people."

3 In fact, sir, Mr. Kurnoga is the person who replaced Dr. Stakic as

4 the president of the Municipal Assembly. Correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct. Not only Kurnoga, Mandic came to the head of

6 the Executive Board also. I think his name was Dusan Mandic, but I may be

7 wrong about this. Dusan Mandic. These people were very dismissive to

8 people who had occupied positions before the war. In addition to Kurnoga,

9 there was Zmijanac, there was a man named Sidjak. I explained before that

10 he had been appointed the director of Energopetrol company. He had

11 embezzled 450.000 German marks and ended up in prison. And later on, in

12 1994 and 1995, because of this Tribunal, there was an intervention from

13 the top of the state, from the top level of the leadership of the state

14 for the whole thing to stop. And that was when Dr. Stakic was again

15 appointed as the president. Please, I'm not sure I can remember exactly

16 the time frame, but I think that was in 1996 that he again became

17 president of the municipality.

18 Q. When you say the top level of the republic, the president of the

19 SDS party at that time was Dr. Karadzic. Correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Sir, can you tell me, during the time that Mr. Kurnoga was

22 president of the Municipal Assembly, having replaced Dr. Stakic, did any

23 camps such as Omarska or Keraterm or anything the equivalent to Omarska

24 and Keraterm exist when Mr. Kurnoga was the president of the Municipal

25 Assembly?

Page 11863

1 A. No, certainly not. Of course, a period followed in which fronts

2 were set up, so there was nothing.

3 Q. Sir, how do you know Dr. Stakic? You've mentioned a few

4 occasions, but can you tell us how well you know him and in what way you

5 know Dr. Stakic.

6 A. I believe the best way to get to know someone, to familiarise

7 yourself with someone, is in informal moments. We used to play cards

8 together as I have mentioned. And at a later stage, we started shooting

9 pool together. And his and my wife when we were away, we would have a

10 drink or two also. And we used to talk about everything, all kinds of

11 things.

12 I remember that in late 1995 or early 1996, I told him that he

13 should take an MA, and he was a young man. He had a wonderful wife and

14 children. So I thought it would have been a good idea for him to enroll

15 in an MA programme. That's what I told him, and I know that he did so

16 later on.

17 Q. In social sessions, you talked about shooting pool and playing

18 cards -- or playing billiards and playing cards, did Mr. Kovacevic and

19 Mr. Drljaca also socialise with Dr. Stakic?

20 A. During the period that I was spending time with Dr. Stakic, I must

21 say there were only three restaurants working in Prijedor. They had

22 priority because there was a shortage of electricity. But those three

23 restaurants did get electricity. So most of us would come together

24 there. I would meet Dr. Stakic. Dr. Kovacevic never played pool. And

25 Simo Drljaca was always surrounded literally by his escort, and literally

Page 11864

1 I had no possibility to come even close to him. And I don't think

2 Dr. Stakic did either.

3 Q. So at these few open restaurants such as Kotpolje, you would see

4 Mr. Kovacevic who would observe the pool games but not play, billiard

5 games, and you would also see Mr. Drljaca, but you didn't socialise

6 directly with him yourself. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct. I didn't. If it happened that we were

8 standing close to each other, it was only because different players were

9 taking over at the pool table.

10 Q. Sir, in these conversations, social conversations you had with

11 Dr. Stakic at the time you saw him in the basement of the Municipal

12 Assembly, you said, doing the night shift for the Crisis Staff, did you

13 ever talk to him about what you had described I believe on page 72 of

14 yesterday's transcript, when I asked you about certain colleagues of

15 yours, directors of the Ljubija mine and then prominent persons in

16 Prijedor such as Mr. Seric, Dr. Sadikovic, Mr. Cehajic, you said that,

17 beginning on line 10: "After those events, news arrived but from the

18 street. Certain names were mentioned. They said that those persons had

19 been killed."

20 Did you ever talk about these rumours to Dr. Stakic?

21 A. No, I didn't, not at all. I did not discuss those rumours with

22 anyone at all. Simply because I refused to believe that any such thing

23 was true. And I'll give you another name, Mr. Softic, he was an optician

24 in Prijedor. He was a marriage witness of a friend of mine, so I learned

25 about his arrest. But later on, I realised that he returned from the camp

Page 11865

1 and went to Split and that all his equipment was returned to him. That's

2 one of the reasons I refused to participate in spreading these rumours

3 which, as I said yesterday -- unfortunately those colleagues of mine that

4 you refer to yesterday, those people are now gone.

5 Q. Did Dr. Stakic in these conversations with you ever discuss the

6 disappearance or killing of persons he knew of these prominent persons or

7 other persons or the destruction of places like Kozarac, Stari Grad, the

8 main churches and mosques in Prijedor? Did Dr. Stakic talk to you about

9 those?

10 A. I must point out that I only came twice when Dr. Stakic was on

11 duty. And again, we didn't discuss any of these subjects. We were

12 playing cards or chess, so sometimes if the phone rang, he would give

13 instruction to the utility services of the town. But we didn't discuss

14 any such things at all, and this does not only apply to Dr. Stakic; I did

15 not discuss these subjects with any of the people who were on duty. I

16 came maybe two, three, or four times.

17 Q. Aside from these times in the Municipal Assembly, the other times

18 that you did not discuss these things with Dr. Stakic was when you saw him

19 at restaurants, playing cards, playing billiards, sharing a drink?

20 A. It is my deepest conviction, and I'm speaking for myself, but I

21 had the same impression about him and a couple of other colleagues. We

22 were trying to escape from that reality. I was looking for a space where

23 I could get a reprieve, not have to think about it. Not to double-check

24 these rumours. Perhaps I was seeking to convince myself that those

25 rumours were not true. And that was the chief reason why -- at least for

Page 11866

1 myself I tried to avoid the subjects. But I think the same is true for

2 Dr. Stakic; we simply tried to avoid these subjects.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, sir, I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Argibay, please.

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Good morning, Mr. Marjanovic. I have some

7 questions for you. You first told us about an incident of a family in

8 Zagreb that you read in the press at that moment. You afterwards

9 yesterday, I think, told us that you were not used to read Kozarski

10 Vjesnik - I can't say the name, sorry - because it was not a reliable

11 newspaper or at least a weekly publication. You told us also that there

12 was a journalist that had been related to the iron ore mine that

13 afterwards went to work to this paper and was the one who gave you a copy

14 of the announcement of the takeover.

15 Can you just be a little more precise what were the newspapers you

16 were reading at the time and what was this relationship with this

17 journalist? Because I remember some very hard comments you made about the

18 journalist on this other newspaper. Can you precise this for us.

19 A. Yes, I can specify, Your Honour. I find I must say that this is a

20 local newspaper, Kozarski Vjesnik. I did not read Kozarski Vjesnik

21 because I did not consider their journalists to represent any high

22 professional standards of their trade. I received a copy of the

23 announcement from Mr. Rajlic on the 30th. It is true that he had worked

24 at the iron ore mine previously, and later he went to Kozarski Vjesnik.

25 He worked for Kozarski Vjesnik for a while, and I think after all the

Page 11867

1 events, he was appointed a secretary to the embassy in the Vatican.

2 The other news that I could follow was on TV Zagreb because after

3 the transmitter on Mount Kozara had been taken, we could no longer watch

4 TV Sarajevo. The only thing we could watch was TV Banja Luka, and partly

5 TV Belgrade. I directed my own transmitter to TV Zagreb, and the

6 newspaper I was reading during that period was Politika, a daily paper

7 from Belgrade. It was from those media that I found out about the Zec

8 family, and I was interested in the case because I think they came from

9 Dragotija. I'm not entirely sure but I think they were from Dragotija,

10 which is a village about 20 kilometres from Prijedor.

11 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. Do you think that Mr. Rajlic - I'm sorry

12 for the pronunciation - was a reliable journalist?

13 A. I don't think I can judge that. But after all, he was appointed a

14 secretary at the embassy in the Vatican. They must have checked his

15 credentials, his work, and all his other personal information. If he

16 managed to pass that particular test, perhaps that might lead me to

17 conclude that he was, after all, an honest man.

18 JUDGE ARGIBAY: You're not so sure. Sorry. That's a side

19 comment.

20 Then you told us a lot about the iron mine, iron ore mine, but I'm

21 not very clear about the times. You said that usually in spring or summer

22 each year, you had not a lot of work, so it was usual for the company to

23 have a lot of employees on pay leave. Is that correct?

24 A. I'm sorry, but I think there has been a misunderstanding. I'm

25 going to try to explain this at least in as far as I can. The Ljubija

Page 11868

1 iron ore mine is the biggest producer of iron ore in the former

2 Yugoslavia. We produced 3 --

3 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Sorry, I had understood that.

4 I only wanted precise some times because it's very confusing for

5 us in terms of the split of the company because of a decision of some

6 employees or some group of employees. And then afterwards you said that

7 the production has already stopped because of the war and all that. So I

8 want to just precise the times. If I have to understand you correctly, if

9 you say that the production has stopped because of the war, that means the

10 war in Croatia or Slovenia that was in 1991. So I suppose that the mine

11 was not functioning in 1992.

12 Can you clarify these periods of time for us.

13 A. With all due respect, Your Honour, I appreciate that we only have

14 limited time at our disposal, so I'm going to try to be as specific as I

15 can. Until the very end of 1992, we worked full capacity. And the

16 seasons, the different seasons, and the changing of the seasons didn't

17 matter to our production. Our production was not affected.

18 At the beginning of 1992, the work of the banks and the lines of

19 transactions were being disrupted across the territory of the former

20 Yugoslavia, but we couldn't get the due payments to come from in Italy

21 even. So at the end of March, we stopped our operation and our depots

22 were full. The ore was being shipped to Zenica and to Smederevo all the

23 time, not to the west because in Croatia there weren't any significant

24 iron ore mines with the exception of Sisak was not a very good iron ore

25 mine. So until the end of 1991, we worked to full capacity, full

Page 11869

1 throttle, so you're clear about this.

2 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. So you had already stopped operations

3 by the end of March. So Omarska as a mine was not operating in May. That

4 is correct?

5 A. In the course of April, many of our workers were on paid leave

6 which means previously we had shifts of 200 or 300 people. Now some of

7 those people were kept because some of those people were at home, but some

8 of those people were needed at the iron ore mine for maintenance and

9 reparation work in order to keep watch over such equipment as needed to be

10 maintained and repaired all the time to prevent flooding in the mines. I

11 can't give you the exact number of workers who were still there, but I

12 will tell you that the production line, production floor, different

13 production floors at iron ore mines had their own directors, but then

14 those were coordinators and they answered to me. But I didn't go down to

15 the field to check for myself, and I can't give you the exact numbers of

16 people who were on paid leave at the time or those people who were there

17 working. I only had the lists, the pay lists, delivered to me.

18 JUDGE ARGIBAY: I'm clear about that. You said it three or four

19 times already. But also you mentioned the person who was in charge, and I

20 don't dare pronounce the name, but that you were always having news from

21 the Omarska camp as the takeover from the military not directly from the

22 one who was the head at that place, and you told us who, but by other

23 means. What happened to this gentleman that he never communicated with

24 you?

25 A. At one point I said that I stayed at home for a few days. I

Page 11870

1 didn't leave the house. I was looking after my family and after my sons.

2 I suppose that the director in question did the same. I cannot pinpoint

3 where he was during that period of time. I believe that you have enough

4 information to tell you that I went to the Security Services Centre to get

5 a certificate, passes, and from that you can see where people were at the

6 time. I can't tell you where this particular gentleman was at that time.

7 I would call it a black hole in the information at that time. I'm talking

8 about the period in late May up to the 5th or 6th of June. It was very

9 difficult to know at the time where people were, so I can't really tell

10 you where that gentleman was during that period of time.

11 JUDGE ARGIBAY: You were not surprised that he didn't inform you

12 of the takeover of the mine?

13 A. He didn't inform me during that period of time. It was only later

14 on that I learned that this was turned into an investigation centre.

15 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Some moments ago, you said that you stayed at home

16 for a few days, and you said that also yesterday. I remember that, or the

17 day before yesterday. What was this period of time that you stayed at

18 home? You said a few days. Which period?

19 A. I apologise. I really can't tell you whether it was four, five,

20 or six days. But in any case, it was in the period from the attack on

21 Prijedor on the 30th of May and later on, further on after that.

22 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. That's what I was asking. And then you

23 told us yesterday, and I would like to mention the line, but I have the

24 LiveNote, and they are not very clear. But you told us that you wore a

25 uniform for around five or ten days after the end of May, and I remember

Page 11871

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3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11872

1 that the videotape that was shown yesterday, you were wearing a uniform,

2 and it was on the 20th of June. So that means more than five or ten days

3 again -- it's okay, but I can't find it.

4 Why were you wearing a uniform if you were staying at home?

5 A. I said that I stayed at home for a few days, and I told you during

6 which period that was. I did wear the uniform for a bit longer. I can't

7 tell you exactly when it was exactly. I'm sure that I wore the uniform up

8 to the end of June. Now I can tell you more precisely because I have been

9 faced with some documents. And with that videotape, I couldn't tell you

10 precisely yesterday. But yes, I did wear the uniform for a longer period

11 of time, up to the end of June probably.

12 JUDGE ARGIBAY: But you didn't answer why. My question was: Why

13 were you wearing a uniform?

14 A. For personal safety and I wore a uniform and I carried a pistol, a

15 short-barrelled pistol.

16 JUDGE ARGIBAY: You told us also that you were going to play cards

17 or chess with the persons in the Crisis Staff who were having night duties

18 or something like that. And you told us that you went around 9.00 and

19 stayed until 12.00 by night. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is correct. And if you will allow me, I would like to

21 correct you. We played cards. We didn't play chess, never.

22 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. Doesn't matter.

23 You had a special pass to be out at 12.00 by night? Because if I

24 remember correct, there was a curfew from 10.00 by night? And if you were

25 out at 12.00 by night, were you having -- did you have a special pass to

Page 11873

1 be out during the curfew hours?

2 A. Yes. During the initial stages, I did have a time-barred pass. I

3 can't give you the exact date, whether it was for a period of two or three

4 days. But every time when I went home, I used Mr. Sidjak's car.

5 Mr. Sidjak was there, as I've told you. And he would give me a lift also

6 for safety reasons.

7 JUDGE ARGIBAY: This morning, in line 7 of page 7, you told us

8 that you were not sure about the reimbursement arrangements of the

9 military during 1992. But I remember that you were shown the list of

10 employees by the Defence counsel, and you identified a lot of them on

11 military duty. So by the document you were shown today, you should pay or

12 have in your payroll the employees who were doing military duty. The

13 company was entitled to reimbursement by the military because of

14 mobilisation. Why were you not aware of what the situation of

15 reimbursement was? It was one of your duties as a manager, I suppose.

16 A. The lists of employees which were militarily engaged I took to

17 Banja Luka. This was not done in the Prijedor garrison because it's a

18 small garrison. It was done in the centre whose name I don't know. I

19 believe it was the military command of Krajina. That is where I look the

20 lists to a colonel whose name I have forgotten. And we were never

21 reimbursed for the salaries that we paid out to the employees of the mine

22 who were militarily engaged.

23 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. I'll turn to another subject, please.

24 In the transcript of I think it's Monday, Monday, 3 February, and I have

25 the number of the pages, 11.658. I don't know if that's correct. In line

Page 11874

1 8 of this transcript, 7 and 8, you said -- you started some lines before:

2 "Through my secretary, I informed the production floors in Omarska..."

3 Et cetera, et cetera. "In the central workshop and the others that we

4 already identified, I informed all of them that there had been a takeover

5 by the SDS and that they should continue working normally."

6 Then yesterday, you told us that the takeover was staged by the

7 military and the SDS followed suit. This is a contradiction with what you

8 said on Monday. Do you see that?

9 A. I emphasised this in my yesterday's statement, and I said that it

10 was my very personal view, very, very personal. This is what I believe

11 regardless of what had been communicated at that time, and that was that

12 the SDS had taken over power. It is my impression that those people were

13 the military because they wore uniforms, because that's who I saw at 5.00

14 in the morning when I arrived at the mine, and that's what I said

15 yesterday, that it was my personal opinion.

16 JUDGE ARGIBAY: You saw soldiers in your company at 5.00 in the

17 morning that day, soldiers that were sent to tell you that everything

18 should go on normally. Is that correct?

19 A. I must say that they called me, but they had already been in the

20 mine on the premises of the mine, and that's where they called me from.

21 And I told you that I didn't know any of these people. I can't tell you

22 whether the uniforms were military uniforms or police uniforms. I only

23 know that they were all in uniforms, and that's when they told me that we

24 should continue working normally. And I've already told you that this was

25 in town, in the centre of the town where there are about 200 people

Page 11875

1 working, so I had to work with all of them. I told them that we should

2 continue working. And it is correct that I communicated via my secretary

3 by phone, and I spoke to all of my directors of various production plants

4 and various sectors. And I told them that they should continue working

5 normally.

6 JUDGE ARGIBAY: I'll try to be a little more concrete because I

7 suppose you're not understanding what I want you to tell me. You didn't

8 know even if there were soldiers or police personnel who were at your

9 company just telling you that everything should go on normally. So why

10 are you supposing that the military were the ones who were staging this

11 takeover that you first said was done by the SDS? Can you see the

12 difference in what I'm asking you?

13 A. Your explanation is really fantastic. It is true that there is a

14 difference in my statements, but let me once again emphasise that I have

15 shared with you my very personal view, not a general view. And wherever I

16 voiced that personal opinion of mine, whoever I said that personal

17 opinion, they didn't believe me and they tried to prove me wrong.

18 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. And move to another subject, if I

19 may. Sorry, just a moment, please.

20 In your testimony on Monday, and I've just lost the page again --

21 oh, here it is. On page 11.705, you said that "In the first part of

22 June - that's line 20 - over 30 per cent of the work force of the mine

23 were militarily engaged, a vast majority were at home on standby. During

24 the month of June, I asked people to call in so that we could compile the

25 lists. In later stages, over 90 per cent of the total work force of the

Page 11876

1 mine were militarily engaged. The only persons remained working were

2 women and myself." And that was the month of June 1992.

3 Some moments ago, you told us that the work was going on as usual

4 during all the year 1992. How is it possible?

5 A. Let me just clarify one or two things. I never said that we

6 continued working throughout 1992. I don't think I have. In 1992, we

7 worked in January, in February, and after that, the production was

8 interrupted. And I told you that at that time, about 30 per cent of the

9 people were militarily engaged. I may have omitted to mention that in

10 1995, there were over 95 per cent of the work force militarily engaged,

11 and that the only people that remained in the company at that time were

12 women and myself.

13 JUDGE ARGIBAY: You told us, and I think this was on Tuesday, not

14 on Monday, that you were informed that there was looting or robberies of

15 equipment in the Omarska mine, and you mentioned the 6th Sana Brigade.

16 And can you tell me, that was from the JNA, that brigade? To which army

17 did the brigade form a part, this 6th Sana Brigade?

18 A. It's very -- it's going to be very difficult for me to explain

19 that. I'm not that familiar with that particular matter, but I'll try.

20 Brigades consisted of the reserve members of the force, and I believe that

21 it was according to the regulations governing the JNA. I believe that's

22 how it was possible to mobilise the reserve military and include them into

23 those particular brigades.

24 JUDGE ARGIBAY: That's not my question. I wanted to know if this

25 6th Sana Brigade was a part of the army, the Yugoslav army, whatever the

Page 11877

1 name you want to give it.

2 A. I believe so. I did say that they were mobilised according to the

3 regulations governing the JNA. So I believe that it would ensue from that

4 this brigade was in the composition of the JNA, but I cannot be sure of

5 that.

6 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. You told us the 6th Sana Brigade was taking

7 things from Omarska in the spring, summer, or autumn 1992. And you made a

8 list of special tools like two sets of "zol" keys and all that sort of

9 things. And you just put to several robberies of private character took

10 place. If the Omarska complex was taken over by the military by the end

11 of May, and that was spring of 1992, how can you make a difference between

12 a private character or private nature of the robberies and just a

13 mobilisation of equipment that you told us yesterday?

14 A. I really apologise. I didn't say that the 6th Sana Brigade was

15 engaged in the looting in Omarska. I mentioned the central mines and

16 eastern mines, that is in Tomasica. So this is a fact, and I can provide

17 my comment. The lists have been compiled, and now it is being asked from

18 the government of Republika Srpska to pay the damages. But they cannot do

19 that given the economic situation as it is nowadays.

20 But as for the investigation centre, I can't tell you exactly when

21 this -- these premises were emptied, and then we did the stock of Omarska,

22 and we could then tell when was it that the armed citizens of Omarska

23 entered and took all sorts of tools. And based on that, we compiled a

24 list of these things, and we handed them over to this public security

25 centre. And I believe that I've already told you that nothing was done in

Page 11878

1 this regard.

2 JUDGE ARGIBAY: When you got the news of the Omarska takeover by

3 the military, couldn't you just lay a complaint on that with Mr. Ranko

4 Travar who was the person in charge in the municipality? I mean in this

5 field. I don't mean the president or the vice-president. He was in

6 charge of this mining thing.

7 A. I believe that at that time, no complaint could have borne fruit,

8 could have been seen through. This was a state in which civilians could

9 not complain in any way about the actions of the army and the behaviour of

10 the MUP. I may have complained orally; I can't remember at this point.

11 But my personal opinion is that at that time, a human's life was not worth

12 much. And in that chaos, one could not make a distinction between the

13 regular army and others. There were also paramilitary units. I really

14 did not see any doors on which I could knock and have my complaint

15 listened to and seen through.

16 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Wasn't it your duty as a manager of the company

17 just to put on paper, let's say write or advise your legal advisors, to

18 take some action or lay a complaint or something?

19 A. The legal services were not functioning. And let me put it

20 simply: At that moment, I did not have at my disposal any instruments,

21 any tools, any means to prevent these things. And there was nobody for me

22 to address and complain. Whatever I had done, things would not have

23 changed. You may have been -- you may be right. Maybe I should have

24 complained. Maybe I should have filed documents. I didn't. I'm a timid

25 person by nature, and I was afraid myself. Maybe it is my fault that I

Page 11879

1 was not more aggressive at that time. It is maybe my fault that I did not

2 write documents, write letters. But to put it simply, I didn't.

3 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Vassylenko, please.

5 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Marjanovic, on Monday, you stated,

6 transcript page 32, starting with line 6: "In the morning on 30th of

7 April, 1992, I was called -- I received a call at 5.00 in the morning, and

8 I was told to come to the administrative building. They didn't tell me

9 why I was supposed to go there. They just told me that it was urgent, and

10 I went to the administrative building, and I found there some people in

11 uniform."

12 Can you tell us who telephoned you? Who told you to come to the

13 administrative building?

14 A. The man who telephoned introduced himself and told me that he was

15 calling from the management building. I didn't remember, didn't retain

16 that family name, the name of that person because I never saw him again.

17 I obviously had to go because I was afraid that there may have been a

18 disaster. And one tends to react instinctively when somebody calls you at

19 5.00 in the morning, I did not have the time. I just rushed to the

20 headquarters, and that's where I saw the people in uniforms and that's

21 when they told me what they told me. At first, when this guy called me,

22 he didn't tell me what it was all about. He just told me that the thing

23 was urgent, and I rushed to my office.

24 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: I believe that you were, and I hope you are,

25 one of the most respected and influential persons in Prijedor Municipality

Page 11880

1 and among the Prijedor establishment. And then somebody called you at

2 5.00 in the morning, and you immediately came -- obeyed to his order and

3 came to the mine. How can you explain it?

4 A. We did have security at the mines in all the production floors and

5 at the management building, too. I can't know the names of all guards who

6 were there. There were over 120 of them. So the person who called told

7 me he was calling from the management headquarters. I just don't remember

8 his name. I was afraid that something unexpected had happened at the

9 mine, a disaster maybe, and that that's why I received a call from

10 security.

11 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Okay. My next question: Yesterday, you told

12 us that late in May 1992, you were supplied with gun and uniform. May I

13 ask you who supplied you with gun and uniform?

14 A. We bought our uniforms using money from the budget of the mines.

15 That means, the mines provided for the uniforms, and I was given the

16 pistol by security. Excuse me, please, let me specify this: The security

17 service of the mines itself.

18 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Okay. And one more question: Yesterday, you

19 stated at transcript page 10, lines 2-4, "the SDS had power but no money,

20 and that's why they decided to remove the 12 managing directors of the

21 state-owned enterprises."

22 Can you explain to me what is the connection between the powerful

23 SDS and without money, and how this situation can be cured by removing the

24 directors of the state-owned enterprises?

25 A. I said that this particular group of people in the SDS identified,

Page 11881

1 the group of Kurnoga, Zmijanac, Sidjak, and Mandic, they came to the

2 conclusion, they came to the conclusion that they had power but no money.

3 And they believed if they had their own people in place, appointed

4 managing directors of the companies, the companies would have to pay money

5 to them. That's a fact.

6 In 1999, I received a request from the SNS party for 2.000 German

7 marks to be paid into their account. So that was common practice then,

8 but it still seems to be the way certain people go about their business

9 even these days. And I paid this with my own dismissal. They removed

10 from the position of the managing director of the Nemet company.

11 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you for your answer. I have no more

12 questions.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 11.00 sharp.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

17 May I ask you, what was the car you drove in 1991, 1992?

18 A. In 1991, I had a Commodore, that's the make, Commodore. And

19 later, I got a Renault 25.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, did you drive this car throughout

21 1992?

22 A. No, not throughout 1992, not the whole time. I was also using a

23 Golf, Playtrade's Golf. It's an export company in Prijedor. The car

24 belonged to them.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, whenever you needed fuel, did you

Page 11882

1 refuel your car or your cars at Banja Luka Road, at the petrol station at

2 Banja Luka Road?

3 A. For the whole of 1991 and part of 1992, we filled our petrol at

4 our own petrol stations in Ljubija.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So also your private-owned car or the car used

6 by the Playtrade, they were refuelled in Ljubija? You always drove

7 especially to Ljubija to refuel your car. Is this your testimony?

8 A. I did specify for the whole of 1991 and part of 1992, we were

9 using the petrol we had within the perimeter of the central mines in

10 Ljubija. After June and July, we no longer went there for petrol. I

11 don't know exactly where our drivers were getting petrol, but they were

12 certainly no longer using that particular petrol station within the

13 perimeter of the Ljubija central mines.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It would be your testimony you never drove alone

15 and refuelled your car; it was done by your drivers, correct? And you

16 were never present, never, when the car was refuelled?

17 A. During this particular interval while Mr. Faruk was the driver, he

18 did it regularly. In mid-1992, I still went to Belgrade on my own to the

19 Sartik company, and then I bought my fuel myself mostly in Belgrade or at

20 petrol stations in Serbia because in the area of the corridor, there was

21 no petrol.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: How many cars of the Prijedor ore mines company

23 were still operational after the 30th of April?

24 A. As far as I know, the Renault 25, the driver who was my driver

25 kept the car. I know there was a Lada caravan, the delivery vehicle of

Page 11883

1 the central workshop. And I know there was a Volkswagon caddy which had

2 gauges, electrical gauges.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What about those cars you mentioned during your

4 testimony several times, the huge lorries, for example, the TAMici?

5 A. Those are vehicles which kept in the production lines and in the

6 central workshop. I will say again, the production lines, central mines,

7 eastern mines, and Omarska mines. But the central workshop is in

8 Prijedor. So all these vehicles starting with the heavy mining machines

9 and dumpers to the TAM vehicles that we used to refer to as the TAMici, a

10 tonne and a half or 2, they were freight lorries which could carry up to

11 20 tonnes. They were in the auto service where the buses were, too.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: These lorries ever leave the compound of, say,

13 Ljubija mines or Omarska? I'm always referring only to the period of time

14 May through September 1992.

15 A. It's difficult to give you an accurate answer to that question.

16 All the freight vehicles -- none of the freight vehicles were registered

17 for public transportation, for public traffic. The vehicles which could

18 carry up to 20 tonnes were registered for public traffic, but these heavy

19 freight vehicles used to transport goods by road were mostly kept at the

20 Autoservice. I can't tell you if these vehicles, and when, commuted

21 between the central mines and the central workshop.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Isn't it true that especially the TAMici had

23 ordinary car plates, and having these plates, they could drive also on

24 public roads?

25 A. Yes, that's correct. As I said, they were registered for public

Page 11884

1 roads. All the vehicles of the mines were registered for public roads

2 with the exception of the heavy machines like dumpers.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So the question would be: Did you know where

4 these cars when, for instance, leaving the areas of the one or other mines

5 were ever refuelled in Prijedor? Did you ever need a certificate by the

6 Crisis Staff for getting fuel?

7 A. No, not to my knowledge. We did not get fuel in that way. All

8 our vehicles in the Omarska mines had their own petrol stations in

9 Omarska. And vehicles kept in Prijedor would get their petrol in Ljubija

10 where there was also a petrol station. I'm talking about both oil and

11 petrol. In Omarska, I think they only had oil tanks.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever discuss with your driver the

13 question whether or not for your own car or cars you needed such a

14 certificate from the Crisis Staff?

15 A. No. He never told me anything about any such thing, nor was I

16 aware of anything like that.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever read the Official Gazette of

18 Prijedor Municipality?

19 A. No, I didn't. It was -- it wasn't being delivered to me. We were

20 subscribed to the Official Gazette of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So you were never informed about that what would

22 be important for your company, orders, recommendations issued by in

23 previous time the Municipal Assembly or later the Crisis Staff? You were

24 not interested at all in this?

25 A. I'm not sure how to explain this. All correspondence with the

Page 11885

1 Executive Board from the municipality and the bodies of power, government,

2 in municipality went directly across in writing. In mid-1992, the

3 municipality wanted to engage part of the machinery we had, and that was

4 approved.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May the witness please be shown Document S180,

6 item number 24. Just in order of the limited time, let me direct you to

7 number 2, last dash, "the following may sign refuelling orders: For the

8 Crisis Staff vehicles, secretary of the municipal secretariat for the

9 economy and social affairs." That would be which person, the name of this

10 person?

11 A. The secretary of the secretariat for the economy, I think Ranko

12 Travar was the secretary.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Have you ever seen this document?

14 A. No, I've never seen this document.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you discuss with Mr. Travar - apparently you

16 met him several times - that he had to follow this order as we can read it

17 here in the Official Gazette?

18 A. I didn't discuss this with him. I mentioned upon leaving for

19 Slavonia, and several times later I did see him, but we didn't discuss

20 this.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was there a shortage of fuel in May, June, July,

22 August, September in Prijedor? Yes or no.

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What was the action taken in order to distribute

25 the fuel in an adequate way?

Page 11886

1 A. I don't know.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It is your testimony that you don't know about

3 certificates issued by the Crisis Staff on -- or granting petrol or oil to

4 certain persons?

5 A. I don't know.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Have you ever been to Cirkin Polje?

7 A. Yes, I was born very near Cirkin Polje.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know a building in Cirkin Polje where

9 those certificates were issued?

10 A. I am familiar with the building in a manner of speaking because I

11 once was in the building. If I remember correctly, a man from Cirkin

12 Polje, I think his last name is Makovac asked to have part of the

13 resources of the mines put at his disposal, his disposal personally. I

14 refused his request, and I never went back to that building.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you recall by chance the road and number

16 where this building was located?

17 A. The street is called Bolnicka Street, the hospital street. But I

18 can't remember the number.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I once again ask, you lived in what area and

20 explicitly the street and number, the street where you lived at that time,

21 the middle of 1992?

22 A. I lived in Dzemala Bijedica Street, number 14/6. And I still

23 reside in the same flat, but the street name has been changed.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Coming back to this building, when

25 entering this building, did you see any insignia or any name related to

Page 11887

1 those being in power now or even the name "Crisis Staff"?

2 A. I don't remember at all. I arrived there in a vehicle, and I

3 wasn't really paying attention. There must have been some kind of staff

4 there, if I remember the way Mr. Makovac was behaving.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you receive a new ID at the end of April

6 1992 or beginning of May 1992?

7 A. We've had to change so many different IDs that I can no longer

8 remember. I suppose this may have been the case. If we had new

9 registration plates issued, I suppose they issued us with new IDs, too. I

10 can't remember specifically, believe me. But if that was done, then I

11 must have been issued a new ID at some point, too.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This ID would have been issued by whom?

13 A. IDs are issued by the public security centre.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Wasn't it an alternative that the -- an ID was

15 issued in this same building in Cirkin Polje? Did you know about that?

16 A. I don't know about that.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: To be quite concrete, the ID was issued by the

18 Crisis Staff?

19 A. Personally, I don't know this.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Coming back to the question put to you by

21 Judge Vassylenko, was it a special ID allowing you to remain on the

22 streets of Prijedor during curfew?

23 A. Yes, it was such an ID.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What other special privileges were combined with

25 this ID?

Page 11888

1 A. This was a pass which gave you the right to move about during

2 curfew. It was not an ID proper. It was just a document, a pass, making

3 it possible for you to move about during curfew. And I was not aware of

4 any other privileges related to that pass.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it's your final testimony that you never

6 entered this building in Cirkin Polje being you yourself or waiting in the

7 car, that your driver did it, asking for any certificate to get fuel. And

8 it's in addition your testimony, and question mark should be read on the

9 transcript, that you never refuelled or your driver did never refuel in

10 your presence the car or one of the cars at Banja Luka Road petrol station

11 or, I add now, Zarko Zrenjanin barracks?

12 A. I said that I was once at the building in the Bolnicka Street, the

13 building you just referred to, but only once. I think it was the

14 beginning of May. That was my submission.

15 As far as the refuelling of the vehicle that I was using, the

16 driver took care of that on a regular basis. So to the best of my

17 knowledge, I can't claim that he didn't, but at least I was not aware of

18 any such situations as you have referred to.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May I ask the usher now to show from

20 the same document S180, item 29. It's on page number 42, at least in

21 English. Maybe this may appear repetitive. But it's related to the

22 question whether or not, and if so, how, you received orders from the

23 Crisis Staff. Have a look on this and please comment.

24 It reads: "Ljubija RZR is hereby ordered to prohibit further

25 supply of fuel for the purposes of the Omarska regional staff." Are you

Page 11889

1 aware of this order?

2 A. No, I was not aware of this order.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you discuss this order with Ranko Travar?

4 A. I did not discuss this order with anyone because I was not aware

5 of this order.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did Ranko Travar discuss this question with you?

7 A. No, never.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Turn to point 3: "Ranko Travar is hereby tasked

9 with making arrangements with the Ljubija iron ore mines canteen for the

10 provision of food for soldiers and members of the police force."

11 Did you discuss this with Ranko Travar?

12 A. No, I didn't discuss this. Perhaps Ranko Travar had talked to the

13 managing director of -- in charge of food for the staff of the iron ore

14 mine. The managing director of what we refer to as the meals unit was

15 Mandjlo Marcetic.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it is your testimony that you were not aware

17 that the company you headed was ordered to supply with fuel and provide

18 food for soldiers and members of the police. Is this your testimony, that

19 you are not aware of this?

20 A. I will repeat once again: I'm talking about number 1. The

21 managing director Dusko Vlacina was at the head of Omarska. They may have

22 talked to him, but they certainly didn't talk to me. The meals unit in

23 this particular period was not formally part of the Ljubija iron ore

24 mines. It was separated from the structure of the iron ore mines itself

25 officially at the beginning of 1992.

Page 11890

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We learned during the testimony that the

2 premises and the areas of your responsibility were spread all over - I

3 don't know whether limited to - but spread all over the municipality of

4 Prijedor. May I ask, how often between, say, 1990 and 1996 did you visit

5 Ljubija mine?

6 A. On several occasions, not many times. I can't remember exactly.

7 But I don't believe I was there for more than three or four times.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's not for me to comment on this, but maybe

9 you can understand that one is surprised to hear that you, as the head of

10 all these institutions, mines, and so on - you mentioned all the details

11 already - that you rather randomly visited the one or other mine or

12 institution. Is it correct?

13 A. It is correct. If I may --

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Once again, to come immediately to the point,

15 could you please repeat when had you been the last time before May 1992 in

16 Omarska ore mine and when was it the next time you had been there?

17 A. I can't remember the exact date when I was in Omarska. I was

18 sometime in the course of 1991, that's for sure. And I'm also sure that

19 after March 1992, I was not in Omarska again until sometime in 1995 or

20 1996. I'm not sure.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it's your testimony that you were not

22 interested in at all what was happening in Omarska in your own company

23 during the entire year 1992? You were not present one only day, one only

24 hour, absolutely no visit to Omarska mine? Is this your testimony?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 11891

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When did you try to land with the Piper aircraft

2 at Omarska?

3 A. That was during the construction phase in the 1980s when the

4 grounds were laid for the pista. So that's when I couldn't land because

5 of the lighting columns that were there.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So this attempt to land had nothing to do with

7 the actual construction and the actual buildings in Omarska?

8 A. I flew a Super K Piper, a two-seater, and with me was the guy who

9 was the -- guy who sold us the equipment. So he wanted to see the whole

10 compound of Omarska from the air. And at that point, I thought maybe it

11 would be good for us to land there. We didn't succeed, and we had to

12 return.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, who was the owner of this aircraft?

14 A. The 1st Partizan Aviation Air Club from Prijedor.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's turn to another subject that was already

16 covered several times during your testimony. You mentioned the 5th of

17 February, Day 114, page 50; and today's transcript, page 31, line 10, when

18 asked "Did you wear a uniform in 1992?" Your answer: "In late May of

19 1992 for the first 10 or 15 days."

20 Today, you corrected your testimony up to the end of June. Why

21 was it that the 5th of May [sic], you clearly remembered the first 10 or

22 15 days?

23 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The 5th of May [sic], you testified you wore a

25 uniform the first 10 or 15 days. Let me quote it in context. You were

Page 11892

1 asked: "Sir, did you wear a uniform in 1992?" Answer: "In late May of

2 1992, for the first 10 or 15 days."

3 Today, you testified "to the end of June." 31:10 of today's

4 transcript. Why did you tell us the 5th of February, "late May for the

5 first 10 or 15 days"?

6 A. I based my testimony on my recollection, but it is very difficult

7 to be precise after such a long period of time. And I even said that that

8 may have been the end of June. I may have worn the uniform even after the

9 end of June. It's very difficult for me to be absolutely accurate about

10 that.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You already told us this morning that you bought

12 the uniform, and you received a BT short-barrel rifle. The 5th of May

13 [sic], you added Zastava, the name of this rifle. So who ordered you to

14 wear both uniform and rifle?

15 A. I did not carry a rifle. I carried a pistol, a TT short-barrelled

16 pistol. And it's nickname is TT. And it was made by Zastava. I can't

17 tell you whether an order had been issued or not, but I'm sure that the

18 driver and me and some other people wore uniforms for our own personal

19 safety. We wanted to be different from other citizens. That's why we

20 decided to put on uniforms, for personal safety.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The 5th of February, on page 91, you referred to

22 a recent conversation with Mr. Dragic. When was this conversation?

23 Page 91, line 8, 9.

24 A. 15 or 20 days ago approximately. I can't tell you exactly.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Had at that point in time Mr. Dragic already

Page 11893

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11894

1 testified before this Tribunal? Yes or no.

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: He had testified already?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you discuss with him the issues discussed in

6 the hearing Prosecutor versus Dr. Stakic?

7 A. On behalf of my company, I went to secure a loan. We spent a very

8 short time together. He told me that he had testified. I know that he

9 was in the secretariat. And then he told me about the problems with the

10 setting up of the government, and he told me then that they had reached a

11 stalemate position and they couldn't agree on the number of people who

12 would be appointed to a certain number of positions.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you discuss the question of uniforms with

14 him?

15 A. No, I didn't.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: To be quite concrete, how would it be that out

17 of the blue, you decide to wear a uniform and then try to tell us it's for

18 your own protection? I can understand that today, you testified you wore

19 a rifle -- a pistol. On page 50 of the transcript on the 5th of February,

20 it was translated, maybe once again it was once again a question of

21 translation, but in any event, BT short-barrel rifle, Zastava was the make

22 of the rifle. This was your testimony at this time. "This may serve for

23 security purposes." But why for security purposes out of the blue wearing

24 a uniform? Who ordered you to wear a uniform?

25 A. I've already said that there may have been an order. I really

Page 11895

1 don't remember whether there was and who issued it. But personally, I

2 believe that a uniform makes me different from the civilians, that it

3 distinguished me from the civilians, and that I had the right to

4 protection after the events that had taken place in Prijedor.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So you regarded yourself no longer as a

6 civilian. Correct?

7 A. I was not engaged in any military unit, so I was not a soldier.

8 But I did have a uniform.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Which kind of uniform was it? JNA uniform?

10 Camouflage uniform?

11 A. It was a camouflage uniform which was purchased in Celinac near

12 Banja Luka.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Including any insignia?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Testimony, 5th of February, LiveNote Day 114,

16 line 91: When answered on the question of -- about the question of

17 legality of the president of the Municipal Assembly, you answered: "There

18 was a previous agreement on who would be appointed the president of the

19 Municipal Assembly, who would be appointed the vice-president of the

20 Municipal Assembly, and then after that, there was a long discussion

21 between the parties on the distribution of various sectors and the

22 executive branch of the government."

23 You told us there was a previous agreement. Could you please

24 explain us what was this previous agreement you mentioned?

25 A. I may have chosen a wrong term. But it was the SDA which won a

Page 11896

1 certain number of seats, more than any other parties. And then there was

2 an interparty discussion at which it was agreed that the SDA would be

3 given, awarded, the post of the president of the Municipal Assembly, and

4 SDS would be awarded the post of the vice-president of the Municipal

5 Assembly. Well, this was decided before the Municipal Assembly was set

6 up, and then the Municipal Assembly, when it was set up, it was discussed

7 who would actually the people be.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sir, the question was, on page 90: "The

9 assembly elected Muhamed Cehajic as the president and never elected

10 Dr. Stakic, is it correct, as the president of the Municipal Assembly?"

11 Your answer: "Again, you've put me in an awkward position. I've told you

12 the Municipal Assembly was in session after the multiparty election." And

13 then you continued: "There was a previous agreement on who would be

14 appointed the president of the Municipal Assembly, who would be appointed

15 the vice-president of the Municipal Assembly."

16 Do you regard Dr. Stakic as the legal or the illegal president of

17 the Municipal Assembly as from the takeover?

18 A. I can't answer this question.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you regard the census of 1992 as an illegal

20 or a legal one?

21 A. Would you allow me to say a few words about the census which took

22 place in 1991 in Prijedor?

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask you to answer the question with a

24 clear yes or no. You touched already upon this during yesterday's

25 testimony. I apologise that I don't have the correct page with me. But

Page 11897

1 therefore, once again, yes or no, do you regard this a legal or illegal or

2 even to go one step further, a legitimate census?

3 A. I'm really confused. I don't know whether you're asking me about

4 the 1991 census, whether it was legal or illegal, or whether you're asking

5 me about the appointment of Mr. Stakic as the president of the Municipal

6 Assembly and whether you're asking me whether that appointment was legal

7 or illegal.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's severe the both questions. First

9 question, please answer with yes or no, following the elections and then

10 the takeover, did you regard Dr. Stakic as from the takeover as the legal

11 president of the Municipal Assembly in Prijedor? Yes or no.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you regard the census of 1991 legal or

14 illegal? Yes or no.

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you accept the outcome of this census?

17 A. It was accepted at the level of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you discuss with Dr. Stakic in the beginning

19 of 1992 what one could do in order to rearrange the situation following

20 the outcome of this census and later on the elections? Did you ever

21 discuss these political problems with Dr. Stakic at that time where the --

22 there was not yet the crisis situation you mentioned later where you told

23 us that from your point of view it would be better not to discuss

24 political issues? But I want to refer to the period of the beginning of

25 1992. Did you ever discuss with Dr. Stakic the outcome of the census and

Page 11898

1 later the outcome of the elections?

2 A. No, I never discussed that. I didn't even know which party he

3 belonged to.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So were you aware that there were meetings in

5 order to, to put it very carefully, to rearrange the situation in Prijedor

6 starting with January 1992 aiming at having another government, once again

7 to be neutral, another government in Prijedor?

8 A. I didn't talk about that. Such documents were not available to

9 me.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I didn't ask about documents. What documents

11 are you referring to?

12 A. You've mentioned meetings. So I meant documents from any such

13 meetings.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Have you ever heard about such meetings when you

15 yourself conclude that there would be some documents about these meetings,

16 for example, minutes?

17 A. I assume that minutes were taken. In 1992, I saw the minutes of

18 the Executive Board of the SDA where some things were defined. So by way

19 of analogy, I assume that the SDS also took minutes of their meetings, if

20 there were meetings. But that's just my assumption.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When did you hear for the first time about the

22 takeover? Is it your testimony that it was at 5.00 the 30th of April,

23 1992?

24 A. It is.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No rumours, no discussions with friends

Page 11899

1 beforehand?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You told us yesterday that the documents, first

4 document presented by the Defence, this was the transcript of that what

5 was read out during the entire day of the 30th of April from Radio

6 Prijedor, that you received this document on or about 11.00 to 12.00 this

7 same day. Correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you receive this document spontaneously or

10 did you request this document from the journalist?

11 A. Spontaneously.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: How many other similar documents you received

13 spontaneously from this journalist?

14 A. No, I didn't receive any other documents from the journalist.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The 3rd of February, 2003, day 112, page 60, you

16 were asked about the duties of the Crisis Staff, meetings, and your

17 answer was: "Yes, on two or three occasions, these were nighttime stints

18 of duty. You would have to be on duty all night. And the office was on

19 the basement next to the centre for early warning centre, and there were

20 communications." And then it doesn't continue.

21 Therefore, first question: This was in the municipal building or

22 in another building? Because here you can't read the basement of which

23 building? It only reads "in the basement next to the centre."

24 A. In the basement of the building of the municipality of Prijedor.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then you continue: "It was there when Slavko

Page 11900

1 Budimir was on duty, Ranko Travar, Mr. Milomir Stakic, and Sidjak was also

2 with us. I don't know what his first name was, but he was not a member of

3 the Crisis Staff." How do you know that he was not a member of the Crisis

4 Staff?

5 A. When he drove me home in the night, like I've told you he did, he

6 told me.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. I can't understand this. You're sitting

8 together in a car, and a person tell us you: "I'm not a member of the

9 Crisis Staff"?

10 A. We were talking about the reasons for him being there.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Who were so the other members of the Crisis

12 Staff?

13 A. I was there a couple of times. I think I've given you four names,

14 Mr. Milomir Stakic, Mr. Budimir, Mr. Travar, and Mr. Kovacevic.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What about Mr. Savanovic?

16 A. I didn't know about him. He may have been on duty, but at some

17 point when I wasn't there myself.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What about Mr. Kuruzovic?

19 A. I don't know.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What about Mr. Mandic?

21 A. I don't know.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Drljaca?

23 A. I don't know.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Pavicic?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 11901

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Macura?

2 A. I don't know whether he was a member of the Crisis Staff.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: To conclude my questions, you were the head of

4 the most important industrial complex in the municipality of Prijedor.

5 Correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You heard rumours about killings, rumours about

8 persons missing. Correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You had meetings together with Dr. Stakic and

11 others you identified as members of the Crisis Staff, and you never took

12 the opportunity to discuss these rumours with these persons?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you make any attempt to verify the rumours

15 being in this position, having this special pass allowing you even at

16 nighttimes to travel around? Didn't you take the opportunity to verify

17 that these rumours were wrong by, for example, going to Omarska?

18 A. No, I made no such attempts. After my conversation with Simo

19 Drljaca, when he told me that I should go instead of Matanovic, it was

20 clear to me that there was no point in trying anything. So the answer is

21 no, I didn't.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know Mr. Mirko Babic?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it correct that he was a member of the

25 management of the Omarska mine?

Page 11902

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What was the hierarchy in Omarska mine of the

3 remaining staff members, employees in Omarska following the takeover of

4 Omarska ore mine as such at the end of May 1992? Who was the head of the

5 management?

6 A. Dusko Vlacina was at the head of the management. He has a degree

7 in mining.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Next in line would be? Was he directly -- or

9 the other way around. Mirko Babic was directly subordinate to

10 Dusko Vlacina?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know Mr. Vuleta?

13 A. No. I met him at the airport on my way here just in passing.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever hear shooting in Prijedor at home,

15 when being at home?

16 A. Yes, I did, when the town was attacked.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you hear ever shooting from Keraterm?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So to conclude, it's your testimony that you

20 never tried to find out yourself what, in fact, happened in this part of

21 your enterprise, the Omarska previously iron ore mine, later used as a

22 camp? You never tried to realise what happened there?

23 A. No, I didn't. I was told, I had information, that it had become

24 an investigation centre.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And it is your testimony that you discussed this

Page 11903

1 never, never with Dr. Stakic?

2 A. That is my testimony.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 1.30.

4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.10 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

7 The Judges conferred during the break, and there are no further

8 questions at this moment from the side of the Bench. So therefore, it

9 would be now for the Defence, if any questions on the basis -- for the

10 purpose of the re-examination. Mr. Lukic, please.

11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We have a few questions for

12 this witness. Thank you.

13 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Once again, good afternoon, Mr. Marjanovic.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. I will just briefly return to a number of questions asked by the

17 Honourable Chamber or my colleagues from the Prosecution. We want to shed

18 light on a number of issues.

19 You explained to us that the iron ore mine Ljubija was a very

20 complex company consisting of a number of companies. The companies

21 that -- the subcompanies that were part of the company of the iron ore

22 mine Ljubija at large, did each of these subcompanies have their own

23 managing director?

24 A. Yes, that's correct. Each had their own managing director.

25 Q. Did each of these subcompanies that were part of the larger

Page 11904

1 structure have their own administrative structure?

2 A. Yes, they had all the structures of administration aside from the

3 finances unit, the financial unit and the bookkeeping, the accountancy.

4 Q. On page 89, line 2 of yesterday's transcript, the Prosecution

5 asked you the following question: "How is it possible that someone who is

6 the boss of everyone in Prijedor Municipality is made to stand duty by the

7 telephone and night duty, that nighttime duty?" The president of the

8 Municipal Assembly, was he boss to anyone at the Municipal Assembly? Was

9 he boss to any of the employees of the Municipal Assembly, any of the

10 members of the Executive Board or any of the assistance services?

11 A. No, he wasn't boss to any of those. He was, as I said, elected by

12 the assembly, and he presided over the assembly. The subject matter

13 debated at the assembly is prepared by the Executive Board and the

14 secretariat. And then these materials are processed by technical

15 services, technical services which is under the authority of the secretary

16 of the Municipal Assembly, who is also elected at the assembly.

17 Q. Page 95, line 4, the Prosecution asked the following question:

18 "Had the announcement been prepared prior to the 30th of April, 1992?"

19 Tell us if you remember - if you don't remember, we can show you the

20 document again - in the announcement, is there any reference to the date

21 29th of April, 1992?

22 A. Yes, I do remember the date of the 29th of April, 1992, was

23 referred to in the context of the ministry at the Bosnia and Herzegovina

24 level whose head was Mr. Alija Delimustafic.

25 Q. Can we then agree that it would not have been possible to prepare

Page 11905

1 this announcement before the afternoon or the evening of the 29th of

2 April, or for that matter, during the morning of the 30th of April, 1992,

3 at least not the announcement that we have been looking at the last couple

4 of days?

5 A. It's very difficult for me to answer your question. It's only by

6 analogy that I can attempt to answer this question. If the date, the 20th

7 [as interpreted] of April was referred to, then this leads me to conclude

8 that the text was drafted after the 29th of April. But I can only state

9 this by analogy.

10 MR. LUKIC: Just one correction, Your Honours, page 54, line 16,

11 it says "20th of April" was referred to, but --

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No doubt it should refer to 29th of April. Thank

13 you.

14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Would the usher be so kind and show the

15 witness Exhibit S77, please.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And please, at the same time, if any, the

17 English translation on the ELMO.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. This conclusion of the Crisis Staff of Prijedor Municipality

20 speaks about the possibilities of establishing criteria on the mode of

21 payment of paying salaries to the army and the police. The companies at

22 that time, were they paying salaries, in as far as there were any at all,

23 to people who had been mobilised by the army or the police?

24 A. I can only speak about the Ljubija iron ore mine company. No, the

25 salaries of our people who had been mobilised by the police or the army

Page 11906

1 were not being paid.

2 Q. Do you know if those same people were receiving salaries from the

3 police or the army?

4 A. No, I don't know that.

5 MR. LUKIC: We are done with this document. Could the usher

6 please show the witness the Exhibit Number S308, please.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, would you be so kind, please, and

8 read out the entire item 4 in this document.

9 A. "For employees registered as missing persons or prisoners, the

10 calculation and payment of salaries will be effected based on the actual

11 working hours in May with the balance up to a full salary calculated and

12 paid as if they had been on standby."

13 Q. Will you please continue.

14 A. "Employees serving in the military and police units will not

15 receive their salaries from the cashier unless they produce a certificate

16 issued either by the competent military command (Zarko Zrenjanin barracks)

17 or the Prijedor public security station.

18 "The managers of enterprises, organisations, and sociopolitical

19 communities are bound by this conclusion to penalize any failure to

20 respond to the work obligation by dismissing such employees from work.

21 "This conclusion shall become effective immediately. The SDK

22 public auditing service of Prijedor and the managers of enterprises,

23 organisations, and communities will be in charge of its implementation.

24 "President, Dr. Milomir Stakic.

25 "Submit to all enterprises, organisations, and sociopolitical

Page 11907

1 communities, the SDK of Prijedor and the secretary for information."

2 Q. Therefore, is it your testimony that in addition to a decision by

3 the Crisis Staff that salaries were to be paid despite the lack of money,

4 no salaries were paid and there were no salaries being paid to anyone at

5 all?

6 A. No, no salaries were being paid because there were huge problems

7 with the cash flow, and the iron ore mine of Ljubija was short of money

8 anyway.

9 Q. The last article of this document says that "All employees failing

10 to respond to the work obligation should be dismissed." Did this apply to

11 everyone, or is it clear on the basis of this decision that there had been

12 some form of discrimination related to a person's ethnic background?

13 A. I think this decision was taken from the law -- the labour law,

14 and the labour law envisages exactly when a dismissal can ensue; that's if

15 a person fails to report for work for five days or longer. And this

16 applies to all employees, at least as far as the employees of the iron ore

17 mine of Ljubija are concerned.

18 Q. On page 19, line 15 of today's transcript, one spoke about the

19 announcement published by the Crisis Staff. You said that perhaps the

20 word "order" had even been used. This was in relation to checkpoints.

21 This public announcement or public address, did this apply to everyone or

22 did you see anywhere or hear anywhere in the text of the announcement

23 itself that it only applied to one particular ethnic group?

24 A. I think it was an order, if my memory serves me right. And it

25 definitely applied to everyone. It applied to all the places where people

Page 11908

1 had set up or were in the process of setting up barricades across the

2 roads.

3 Q. Did you ever hear that something like this, let's call it an

4 order, applied to military units? Were military units ever being given

5 orders in this form?

6 A. I didn't hear any such thing. I'm certain I never heard anything

7 like that. And I don't think this would have been possible. The general

8 headquarters are the commanders of the army. They have their own methods

9 of work and laws which they have to follow in their work. They even have

10 military courts.

11 Q. Did you ever hear that any order was ever issued to the police in

12 this same way?

13 A. No, never. The police are under the jurisdiction of the Bosnia

14 and Herzegovina MUP, and they must follow the same rules as in the old

15 times.

16 Q. I'm not sure if I can quote the exact line. I do have it written

17 down somewhere. Page 14, line 10. At any rate, you were speaking about

18 the proceedings against Mr. Kurnoga or Mr. Sidjak. You said someone had

19 interceded or intervened, a person from the leadership of the state at

20 that time. Why was there intercession or intervention? Do you remember

21 what the reason for this intervention was?

22 A. There was an intervention from the very top of the state. That's

23 what I said. But this was related to the removal of Mr. Kurnoga from his

24 position as the president of the municipality. I may not be accurate when

25 I say that it was towards the end of 1994, but I know that it was in the

Page 11909

1 autumn of 1994. The whole leadership of Republika Srpska was in Prijedor,

2 and I think that there was an electoral campaign. Mr. Radovan Karadzic,

3 we had a meeting with citizens of Prijedor at the mine, and then Karadzic

4 went to the municipality building where they discussed this. And I only

5 heard later that that was when and where Mr. Kurnoga had been removed, but

6 I was not myself present at that meeting.

7 Q. You said on page 31, line 17 that the SNS party asked from you to

8 give them 2.000 German marks, and that's one of the reasons why you were

9 removed, namely, you didn't want to give them the money.

10 A. Yes, that is correct, but that happened in 1998. And I dare say

11 that it is a customary practice among the majority of the parties.

12 Q. Who was the head of that party at the time?

13 A. Mrs. Biljana Plavsic.

14 Q. Page 32 to 34, you were talking about refuelling the cars at the

15 time when there was no petrol to be had. His Honour Schomburg wanted to

16 know how you went about refuelling your cars. I would, therefore, like to

17 ask you a few questions about that. Were you, as a company, owners of

18 some petrol stations?

19 A. The Ljubija mines is not the owner of the petrol stations, and we

20 had two -- I apologise. Every production floor had a petrol station,

21 Omarska, Tomasica, and the central mine. All of the three had petrol

22 stations. When these facilities were being constructed, the mines also

23 constructed the petrol stations, but the mines handed over the petrol

24 stations to Energopetrol which was a state-owned company. We were obliged

25 to refuel our cars there, petrol stations, and we had to pay for that

Page 11910

1 petrol. However, these petrol stations were manned by our own employees.

2 Q. Were you the owners of the fuel that was to be found at these

3 petrol stations?

4 A. Yes, I've already said that.

5 Q. At these petrol stations, was fuel sold to other citizens, or was

6 it for your own purposes and for nobody's purposes but your own?

7 A. We did not sell fuel to other people because we were not

8 registered with the court register as traders in oil and petrol.

9 Q. On page 38, line 2, you were talking about your new ID and whether

10 you know if IDs were being issued in Cirkin Polje. You said that you

11 don't know. Where did you have to go to obtain your new ID?

12 A. ID as a document has always been obtained from the MUP; before the

13 war, during the war, and now.

14 Q. Did you obtain your ID from the MUP?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. As for the pass that served to enable you to move during the

17 curfew, where did you get that?

18 A. In the MUP.

19 MR. LUKIC: Could the witness be shown the exhibit marked S180,

20 please.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we please, in order to save time, just one

22 question related to the present document, this is S308. May I ask you,

23 have you seen this document ever before, the one you have before you in

24 the moment? S308, if Mr. Usher can be of assistance.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember ever having seen

Page 11911

1 this document, but even if it had reached the mine, and I believe it did,

2 it would have been forwarded to the accounting services or to the finance

3 sector.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it was directed to the managers of

5 enterprises, other organisations, but it would be your testimony it never

6 reached your level of management. Correct?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will repeat: The mail that

8 arrives in the service that handles all the mail which is a part of the

9 legal department. This particular service handles all the mail and

10 distributes the mail to the relevant addressees. There were many such

11 documents, and it is even possible that this may have reached me, that it

12 may have been in my hands once. But I really don't remember.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So please answer with a clear yes or no. Did

14 you ever receive or read yourself conclusions or orders signed by

15 Dr. Stakic? Yes or no.

16 A. I don't remember.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. I apologise, Mr. Lukic. Please

18 proceed.

19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Number 29, please. It's page

20 42.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, can you open this document on

22 page 42. You will see number 29 on the top of that page. This order was

23 issued on the 16th of June, 1992.

24 Did you manage the petrol station in Omarska after the 27th and

25 the 28th May, 1992, when, as you testified, the army and the police had

Page 11912

1 taken over the facilities in Omarska?

2 A. Can you please repeat the question. What was the question?

3 Q. After the army and the police entered your facilities in Omarska,

4 who was it who managed the petrol station in Omarska?

5 A. I don't know, but I'm sure it wasn't us.

6 Q. Thank you. On page 47 of today's transcript, line 1, we were

7 talking about the legality of the takeover in Prijedor Municipality. I

8 would like to go back a bit further, a bit further back, in October 1991

9 and the period after October 1991. And I would like to ask you the

10 following: The assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, was it able to work

11 legally without representatives of the Serbian people? What is your

12 opinion? I know that you are not an expert, but what is your opinion?

13 A. It couldn't work given all the laws about the three peoples that

14 constitute the assembly and the state. So my logic tells me that it

15 couldn't work.

16 Q. Was the presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina in a position to work

17 legally without the chosen representatives of the Serbian people?

18 A. My answer is the same. Again, it couldn't work legally because it

19 was supposed to consist of all the three state-forming peoples.

20 Q. The enactment issued by Alija Izetbegovic by which he proclaimed

21 himself president of Bosnia and Herzegovina, although such a position at

22 that time was not envisaged by the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

23 was this enactment a legal enactment or an illegal enactment? What is

24 your opinion?

25 A. I believe it was not legal. It was contrary to the law because it

Page 11913

1 should have been the presidency that was supposed to run Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina as a state.

3 Q. What do you think as a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina, are the

4 principles of legality and legitimacy, were they abandoned long before the

5 30th of April, 1992?

6 A. I follow the work of the assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I

7 could see that there was no agreement among the representatives. And it

8 became clear to me that the result, the outcome, would be what eventually

9 was. And already at that time, one could see that there was no legitimacy

10 in the work of the representatives. So to my opinion, the laws had been

11 abandoned long before that. It is my opinion as a citizen of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina.

13 Q. Page 52, line 4, and this is going to be my last question, His

14 Honour Schomburg asked you whether you were interested in what was

15 happening in your facilities in Omarska, whether you carried out any

16 investigation into that. I'm going to ask you the following: Did you

17 have any authority whatsoever to investigate actions, documents by the

18 Ministry of the Interior and the army?

19 A. I couldn't do it. There was no way I could do that. I already

20 mentioned earlier this morning that I had a conversation with Mr. Simo

21 Drljaca, and we talked about the person that I wanted to have released

22 from the investigation centre. If I had pursued that, I would have lost

23 my life, my life was at stake if I had pursued that matter.

24 Q. So that's a fact. But legally, under the law, did you have the

25 right to investigate into the doings of the police and the military at the

Page 11914

1 time?

2 A. No, I didn't have any rights whatsoever to do that. I didn't have

3 any legal authority to do that. I was not in the position to do that.

4 Q. You mentioned something that didn't enter the transcript. Can you

5 please repeat what you said about the statute.

6 A. All of my authorities and the way I worked was regulated by the

7 statute of the iron ore mines Ljubija.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Marjanovic.

9 Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

11 Any questions in recross-examination?

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Very briefly, two areas, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Koumjian, please:

14 Further cross-examination by Mr. Koumjian:

15 Q. Sir, you were asked just now by Mr. Lukic about the telegram of

16 the 29th of April from the interior minister, purported telegram

17 Delimustafic, instructing the police and Territorial Defence to stop the

18 JNA from leaving Bosnia. And you mentioned that telegram the first day

19 you testified. You are aware, are you not, that that telegram -- that the

20 authenticity of that telegram was denied by the presidency of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina the next day? Correct? Either the 29th or the 30th of April.

22 A. I don't know whether this was denied. I saw the document when I

23 came here, and this is a document referred to in the announcement that was

24 broadcast on the 30th of April. That document which was signed by

25 Mr. Delimustafic.

Page 11915

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11916

1 Q. On Monday, on page 30 of the transcript on line 18, you talked

2 about this telegram. And you said: "I have heard about this document

3 from my conversations with my associates. I have even heard that this

4 document happened to fall into the hands of the leadership and the Serbian

5 people."

6 First, can you tell us which associates told you about this

7 telegram?

8 A. My associates from my company, from the mines, my directors of

9 production floors and sectors.

10 Q. When did you have these conversations with your colleagues? The

11 day of the telegram or a different day?

12 A. Later on, after the announcement.

13 Q. This telegram instructing the police to attack the JNA and to

14 prevent the JNA from leaving Bosnia that you saw Monday was addressed to

15 the chiefs of the CSB. Do you know that Stojan Zupljanin was the chief of

16 the CSB for Banja Luka at that time?

17 A. I don't.

18 Q. The telegram was addressed to the Prijedor -- to all SJBs, and in

19 Prijedor, the chief of the communications of the SJB was Milos Jankovic, a

20 man of Serbian ethnicity. Did you know him and were you aware of that?

21 A. I know him, but I'm not aware of that.

22 Q. When you said on Monday that you heard this document had fallen

23 into the hands of the leadership and the Serbian people, that would

24 indicate to me, and you can correct me, that the document was attempted --

25 that someone had attempted to keep it secret from the leadership and the

Page 11917

1 Serbian people. Would you agree that if a document is sent to

2 Mr. Zupljanin and a document is sent through Mr. Milos Jankovic, both of

3 Serbian ethnicity, and Mr. Zupljanin, an SDS member and later on the

4 Crisis Staff of the autonomous region, that this document could hardly

5 have been intended to be secret from the Serbian people if it was

6 authentic?

7 A. I've told you, and what I've told you was based on the stories

8 that I heard on the conversations that I had with people.

9 Q. Fair enough. I understand your knowledge is limited on that

10 subject.

11 I want to go, then, finally you were asked by Mr. Lukic your

12 opinion today about the legality of the assembly of Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina. And if I understand your answer, you believed that that

14 assembly became illegal when the SDS deputies or the Serbian deputies who

15 constituted a minority but represented one people walked out of that

16 assembly and it continued without the Serbian people. You've also told us

17 that you believe that the Prijedor assembly of Dr. Stakic, the president

18 was Dr. Stakic, was legal although two nationalities who constituted a

19 majority of the people of Prijedor were excluded.

20 Can you reconcile for me why you believe it's illegal for Bosnian

21 assembly to continue without the participation of the Serbian people, but

22 it was legal in Prijedor to throw out the majority of deputies of Muslim

23 and Croatian ethnicity?

24 A. I think that these two things are beyond comparison. The

25 constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which I cannot interpret because

Page 11918

1 I'm not a legal expert, but I believe that it regulates that there are

2 three state-forming peoples and the presidency. As to the work of the

3 Municipal Assembly of Prijedor is that decisions are taken by a simple

4 majority as far as I know.

5 Q. You were asked a question today by Mr. Lukic, and I'm sorry, I

6 don't quite quickly enough to get all of the question, but I believe I

7 correctly wrote down part of your answer, whether or not -- wasn't it true

8 that legality had been abandoned long before the 30th of April. And your

9 answer in part was: "So in my opinion, the laws had been abandoned long

10 before that."

11 So is it correct, sir, that in your opinion, what you saw the

12 government of Dr. Stakic, the government that was ruling Prijedor after

13 the takeover, was ruling a state or was ruling territory no longer

14 governed by law but governed by force?

15 A. The conclusions about the work of the assembly of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina I derived from television. I didn't say that I knew anything

17 about that. But in any case, the assembly was more like a theatre. And

18 since not all the sessions were broadcast on television, I was not in the

19 position to be aware of all the conclusions made by that assembly. But in

20 any case, towards the end of its work, the assembly looked more like a

21 theatre than anything else.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: I have no further questions.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we -- there was a misunderstanding, and I

24 get it from the line of questions put to you by Mr. Lukic. My question

25 indeed was not before the break whether you had any right or any

Page 11919

1 possibility to investigate with the assistance of documents of the

2 Ministry of the Interior or the MUP. My question was, and therefore, I

3 repeat it: Did you ever try to get access to the area of Omarska, part of

4 your enterprise? Did you ever try to go there and to verify what happened

5 there in the period of time between the 1st of May and September 1992?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't try because I was afraid. I

7 admit that publicly, I feared for my life. And I believe that I've

8 already told you that I have a family.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the usher to show the witness just

10 briefly Exhibit S395. May it be put on the ELMO because we don't have an

11 English translation.

12 Would you briefly summarise what you can see in front of you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document based on which

14 oil and petrol was sold in Omarska. Here, I can see the date. Here I can

15 see the names of the people who were in charge of various machines. Here

16 I can see the type of machine. Also I can see what kind of fuel has been

17 sold. And the quantity of the fuel sold.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Previous interpretation continues]... Excuse me, Your

19 Honour, it's in the transcript this document, page 67, line 23, that it's

20 about selling. This gentleman never mentioned sale of oil. He said

21 "manipulation," so you may ask him to explain if you want.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask you once again - maybe it is a

23 question of interpretation - what can be seen in column number 5?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can see figures, 50, 20, 30, and

25 so on and so forth. I assume because it says "oil" here, this must be

Page 11920

1 litres of oil.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So this would be in line with your testimony

3 that there were separate petrol stations, here the one in Omarska. You

4 mentioned already beforehand TAMici or TAM. Did you ever hear that there

5 was a theft of fuel or that fuel was illegally sold in Omarska to third

6 persons?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say, but here I don't see

8 any signature. I wouldn't dare say that this was all done legally.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You can see the list of the names. To the best

10 of your recollection, do you know one of these persons listed in column 2?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know the person under number 7,

12 Branko Kicema.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you meet this person later on after 1992,

14 Branko Kicema?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. And I still meet him

16 from time to time.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you discuss with him what was the purpose -

18 apparently he was a driver or refuelled the TAM with the plate number PD59

19 or 545-46.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not talk to him. And as for

21 this document, I see it for the first time.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I absolutely understand this. But it's dated

23 the 2nd of June, 1992. And following your statement, at this time, the

24 ore mine as such was no longer operational. Correct?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've already explained, the

Page 11921

1 petrol station in the part of the surface excavation was still in

2 operation because that took maintenance. There was a shortage of

3 electricity and there were people operating the generator. So I cannot

4 claim that Kicema Branko was taking this petrol to the generator, to use

5 the petrol for the generator, but I know that the petrol station was in

6 operation the whole time. I know because one of the directors had told me

7 that it had not been flooded.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask you the following last question: Did

9 you ever discuss with Branko Kicema whether or not - and this is alleged

10 here in this case - this TAM with this plate number was used to carry dead

11 bodies away from Omarska?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've never heard this before, and I

13 certainly never discussed anything like this with Branko Kicema.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. I have no further questions.

15 Any other questions by any parties?

16 I have to thank you very much for coming to The Hague to testify.

17 I know it was extremely difficult for you, nearly an entire week, and

18 under your special health conditions. But I believe you have assisted us

19 in coming closer to the truth. I wish you a safe trip home and all the

20 best.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour, if I may,

22 will you please allow me to say the following: I want to offer my

23 apologies to all those for whom I have created problems with my quick

24 speech or my inaccurate phrasing. I really hope that my testimony will

25 assist you to shed light on the whole matter, and I must say this again. I

Page 11922

1 only spoke the truth and nothing but the truth. Thank you, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We thank you. And please have a safe trip.

3 May the usher please escort the witness out of the courtroom. And

4 if there are no impediments, please at the same time escort the next

5 witness into the courtroom. This would be number 79.

6 May I ask the Defence, is there any request for any protective

7 measure?

8 MR. OSTOJIC: With respect to this witness, Your Honour, there are

9 not, but we do have one issue that the witness will touch upon, as

10 identified in our proffer, (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, if the witness could remain outside

22 for just a moment.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11923

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, Mr. Rosic. Can you hear me in a

17 language you understand?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May we then please hear your solemn

20 declaration.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. You may be seated. You are called

24 as a Defence witness, and therefore the floor is yours, Mr. Ostojic.

25 Please.

Page 11924

1 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 WITNESS: MILOVAN ROSIC

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Mr. Ostojic:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Rosic. My name is John Ostojic, and along

6 with Branko Lukic, we represent Mr. Milomir Stakic.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. I'm going to ask you a series of questions here this afternoon,

9 and I'd like as a preliminary matter to suggest to you that if you do not

10 understand my question or would like me to clarify further, that you

11 please state so and I will attempt to do the best I can to rephrase my

12 question. Fair enough?

13 A. Fair enough.

14 Q. Let me begin, sir, by asking you to state your full name for the

15 record.

16 A. Milan Rosic.

17 Q. And your date of birth?

18 A. 24th of October, 1948.

19 Q. For purposes of some personal background, can you share with us

20 your marital status.

21 A. I am married. I am married. I have two children, a daughter and

22 a son.

23 Q. Where do you presently reside?

24 A. Currently I reside in Omarska, Prijedor Municipality.

25 Q. Just to clarify, when you say "Omarska," sir, there has been some

Page 11925

1 generalizations made by various individuals that identify Omarska as the

2 iron ore mine. Omarska is a town, is it not, within the Prijedor

3 Municipality. Correct?

4 A. Omarska is a town with about a thousand households. The iron ore

5 mine is about 2 and a half or 3 kilometres away from where I live, or more

6 specifically from the settlement itself. So the town is one thing, and

7 the mine's quite another. And it's a certain distance away from the

8 settlement itself, and it stands within its own perimeter.

9 Q. Can you share with us, sir, where you lived in the spring and

10 summer of 1992.

11 A. I lived in Omarska, and I still reside in Omarska.

12 Q. Same place where you live today, correct, sir? The same home,

13 same distance away from the iron ore mine. Correct?

14 A. That's correct. I have been in the same place since 1967 to this

15 very day. We have a family house. That's where I reside.

16 Q. Forgive me for asking you, but can you tell us please what your

17 ethnic background is.

18 A. I'm a Serb.

19 Q. Share with us, if you will, sir, briefly your educational

20 background by telling us the highest level of education that you attained,

21 where, and when.

22 A. I went to elementary school, eight years of elementary school,

23 eight grades. I completed the eight grades in Omarska. And then in 1963,

24 I went to Slovenia. It was a secondary school for construction

25 engineers. And then after that, I went to do my regular military service

Page 11926

1 for the JNA. After I returned from my military service, I went to a

2 higher school -- a high college for construction engineers in 1971. And

3 that was also -- that was an associate degree in construction

4 engineering. And that was also the last academic experience that I had.

5 Q. If you can just share with us briefly your employment history

6 starting with graduation in 1971. Just a brief overview, if you would.

7 A. I came to Banja Luka, and I worked for a construction company. It

8 was called Granica. We were building a hospital. I stayed in that

9 company until 1978. In 1978, more specifically in the spring of 1978, I

10 went for a while to Canada where I stayed for three years. Upon my return

11 in 1981, I renovated my family home. And in 1982, I found a job with the

12 communal services and administration in Prijedor.

13 Q. Just so that I understand your testimony, is it, sir, that in 1982

14 you became employed by the Department of Communal Services and you

15 continue to this day to be employed in such a capacity?

16 A. Yes. Since 1982, I have been with the communal services.

17 However, the name of the communal services back then was the 4th of July

18 until the beginning of the war in Bosnia. And then I think the name was

19 changed in 1993. The name was Kongrad. Now it's called communal

20 services.

21 But it still has the same function. It still has the same tasks.

22 It's only that different managing directors who came always changed the

23 name of the company.

24 Q. Now, is this -- if you can tell us, having been there in excess of

25 20 years, is this Department of Communal Services a department that falls

Page 11927

1 within the civilian organs, the MUP organs, Minister of Interior, or the

2 military organs in the Prijedor Municipality during the time period that

3 you, sir, have worked there?

4 A. Communal services which does general sanitation work across

5 Prijedor Municipality which includes Omarska, Kozarac, those were the

6 major settlements, and Ljubija, too, always fell within the civilian

7 organs. The Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly had the authority

8 over it, or more specifically, its own branch for communal services.

9 Q. I'm going to come back in some detail with respect to your duties

10 and obligations specifically related to the spring and summer of 1992.

11 However, let me ask you some general questions. In 1990 and 1991, were

12 you, sir, at all times a resident of the Prijedor Municipality?

13 A. All the time. I lived in Prijedor Municipality, or more

14 specifically, in my family house in Omarska. It's a house I own.

15 Q. Fair enough. During that entire period of time, sir, can you

16 share with us your personal experiences and observations with respect to

17 whether there was a voluntary exodus of citizens of Prijedor, meaning that

18 they are leaving the Prijedor Municipality in the time period of 1990 and

19 1991? Share with us that which you personally experienced and observed.

20 A. Well, one thing I can say is that as early as 1990, after the

21 multiparty elections, which we had never had prior to that in the former

22 Yugoslavia, as early as 1991, you could feel a certain insecurity among

23 people belonging to any of the different ethnic groups. After the 1990

24 elections, there was a lot of uncertainty and insecurity in 1991. So I

25 don't think I have anything special to add to that. You could tell that

Page 11928

1 people were confused by the facts surrounding them. In the autumn of

2 1991, you could tell that ranks of Muslims were forming.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Queues were forming of Muslims.

4 A. Women and children were standing in queues in order to obtain

5 passes, I think. As during my time in my job when I was doing the

6 sanitation rounds as an inspector, I did notice these things.

7 MR. OSTOJIC:

8 Q. Did you also, sir, prior to April 30th, 1992, notice an influx of

9 Serbian refugees coming from Croatia as a result of the war that had

10 occurred there?

11 A. There was quite a considerable influx from Croatia. Large numbers

12 of people from Prijedor Municipality who were originally from Prijedor

13 Municipality were working temporarily across the border in Croatia. So

14 that as early as 1991, many people came back. Perhaps even about 90 per

15 cent of all the people who had been working in Croatia. They were

16 returning to stay with their relatives, and then whole families started

17 returning. So there was a significant increase in the population of the

18 town of Prijedor itself.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry to interrupt. I would just ask counsel,

20 I've rethought the issue that we discussed in private session, and perhaps

21 we will get to that after the break and we can talk about it over the

22 break. I just want to warn counsel I would like to rediscuss that.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: One of the agreed facts?

24 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm merely nodding, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

Page 11929

1 MR. OSTOJIC: You're welcome.

2 Q. Sir, can you tell me specifically what -- so that we have a better

3 idea and appreciation of what it is that you did in terms of your

4 employment at the communal services, share with us specifically what your

5 duties and obligations were in the spring and summer of 1992.

6 A. As far as I can see you addressed your question to Mr. Ostojic,

7 and actually my name is Rosic.

8 Q. My name is actually -- that's fine. I'll restate the question.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Perhaps, Your Honour, there was a mistake with the

11 interpretation when they identified me as the speaker, and it may have

12 been confused the witness. If I can just be permitted to restate the

13 question.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please do so.

15 MR. OSTOJIC:

16 Q. Mr. Rosic, can you tell us with some specificity what your duties

17 and obligations were as an employee of the communal services in the spring

18 and summer of 1992 so that we may better have an appreciation of the tasks

19 and that which you performed at the time.

20 A. During 1991, my duty was general sanitation work in the town of

21 Prijedor, the care and maintenance of green areas, the collection of

22 garbage throughout the area, and then if there had been heavy

23 precipitations, we would have to clean the manholes and grilles. We were

24 in charge of the pavements of the Prijedor town and of the green areas.

25 I had a number of people working under me. I was some sort of a

Page 11930

1 foreman for these particular tasks and activities.

2 Q. Let's break that down if you don't mind. Can you tell us how many

3 employees were employed with the department of communal services at or

4 about the time at issue?

5 A. In 1991 and 1992, we had about 130 employees. They were

6 distributed in several work units. There was sanitation, there was the

7 green areas unit. We had a cemetery unit, people who were in charge of

8 maintaining cemeteries. We had workshops where our machines were

9 maintained and repaired. And then I think under the patronage of the same

10 company, we had the water supplies section, too.

11 Q. You mentioned also, sir, that you were a foreman and that you had

12 employees working under you. Can you share with us during that time

13 period the number of employees that worked under you, sir.

14 A. I had about 25 people under me, people that did the work that I

15 was in charge of.

16 Q. And me just break this down for the time frame because it's

17 critical for us, and I appreciate your understanding of this, sir. I'm

18 going to ask you prior to April 30th, 1992, did you have approximately 25

19 people working under you at the department of communal services?

20 A. Between 25 and 30, I would say, then, which is still the case

21 today.

22 Q. And I appreciate your answer. But let me break it down a little

23 further. From the period of April 30th through September 1992 how many

24 people were employed with you or working under you in the department of

25 communal services?

Page 11931

1 A. Well, depending on the exact point in time, between 20 and 25.

2 Between April and -- well, for the entire period of time you've referred

3 to.

4 Q. Did during this period of time, specifically April through

5 September of 1992, did you have employees who worked under you in the

6 department of communal services of ethnic backgrounds other than Serbian?

7 A. Yes, there were Muslims working there. We had Croats working

8 there, too. There were Roma people working there, too. There were

9 different ethnic backgrounds represented.

10 Q. During that period of time, from April 30th through September

11 30th, 1992, did at that time these different ethnic groups, the Muslims,

12 Croatians, and other non-Serbs continue to maintain their employment at

13 the department of communal services?

14 A. Yes. They still work there today. A number of those people who

15 were working there at that point have already retired by now, but new

16 people came. We still have different ethnic backgrounds in our company.

17 Q. Did you, sir, at any time as a foreman obtain or receive an order

18 to discharge non-Serbs, Muslims, or Croatians from the department of

19 communal services during the spring and summer of 1992?

20 A. No, no. We received no such order from anyone, and we didn't do

21 any such thing. We did not dismiss anyone. We were short of manpower

22 anyway, so we certainly would not have dismissed any of the people who did

23 work for us. It was very difficult to get manpower, to hire new people or

24 to find new people to hire. So we kept the minimum and tried to keep the

25 whole thing working.

Page 11932

1 Q. To the extent possible, and I recognise I am taxing your memory,

2 can you list for us by way of example the names of some of those Muslims,

3 Croatians, and non-Serbs who worked in the department of communal services

4 and who were not discharged during the period of April through September

5 1992? I would be grateful --

6 A. Well, perhaps...

7 Mario Zombra, a Croat; Mile Ivankovic; Stipo Saric. Then there

8 was also a number of Muslims, Ibrahim Redic. Djakovic [phoen], he was a

9 Roma person; Dzevad Karabic; Mesud Tadic.

10 Q. Thank you. If you think of any others from time to time, just

11 feel free to share it with us.

12 Sir, I'd like also to have a better appreciation and understanding

13 of the department of communal services in its entirety. I'd like to know

14 who was the director in the spring and summer of 1992 of this department

15 of communal services.

16 A. The director of the 4th of July communal company in the summer of

17 1991 and throughout 1991 up to July 1992 was Jusuf Harambasic.

18 Q. Can you tell us, to the best of your knowledge, what the ethnic

19 background is of Mr. Jusuf Harambasic?

20 A. Muslim.

21 Q. Do you know, sir, because it concerns us particularly, because it

22 falls within the period of the fourth amended indictment, is it your

23 testimony that Mr. Jusuf Harambasic continued to work as the director of

24 the Department of Communal Services through the period of April 30th,

25 1992, up through and including July of 1992?

Page 11933

1 A. Yes. I'm sure of that.

2 Q. Was Mr. Jusuf Harambasic discharged in July of 1992, or did he

3 voluntarily leave his post?

4 A. He voluntarily left his post. He said himself that he could no

5 longer discharge the duties, and then he was replaced by Mr. Milanko,

6 Dujo.

7 Q. Share with me the hierarchy, if you will, who appoints the

8 director such as Jusuf - I forget his last name already - Harambasic to

9 work with the Department of Communal Services and who can discharge that

10 individual? Who can fire him?

11 A. He was appointed -- first, there is an opening, and candidates are

12 invited to apply for the position. And then the best candidate is chosen

13 according to the prescribed rules and conditions set forth by the

14 company. So that person has to have a certain qualification, and all the

15 other things. My company was like any other. This is a service company

16 that performed tasks and had a role that it had. It is not a political

17 organisation.

18 Q. And I understand that, sir, and forgive me for asking the

19 questioning. And I apologise because it was not specific enough for your

20 complete understanding.

21 My question, sir, however is with respect to this Mr. Jusuf

22 Harambasic, who is it, sir, that he would apply to in order to get a job?

23 Did he go to the MUP building, for example, to get a job? Did he go to

24 the military to get a job? Would he go to the Municipal Assembly to get a

25 job? Go ahead.

Page 11934

1 A. The Municipal Assembly, that is, the Executive Board of the

2 Municipal Assembly. That was the body that could appoint him because the

3 body that my company reported to was the municipality or, in other words,

4 the Executive Board which was in charge of the work of my company.

5 Q. And just so that I'm clear, sir, and have a complete appreciation

6 for that, could the president of the Municipal Assembly, even prior to

7 April of 1992, could he appoint an individual to be director of the

8 Department of Communal Services? Or was it exclusively -- exclusively the

9 right of the Executive Board to do so?

10 A. The Executive Board, because the Executive Board was in the

11 position to remove people. The Executive Board can initiate that.

12 Employees also can initiate that, but it is the Executive Board that makes

13 decisions on such matters.

14 Q. Now, specifically with your performance of your duties and

15 obligations as an employee of the Department of Communal Services, would

16 you have an occasion, sir - and tell us the regularity of that occasion,

17 if any - to come to the city/town of Prijedor to perform your tasks and

18 services?

19 A. I was there every day. I would work in the town of Prijedor every

20 day. My working hours were between 7.00 in the morning and 3.00 in the

21 afternoon. Sometimes I would stay even longer than that. So I was in

22 Prijedor every day. I went to work there every day.

23 Q. Sir, how did you travel to the city/town of Prijedor which is

24 within the Prijedor Municipality prior to April of 1992? What was your

25 mode of transportation?

Page 11935

1 A. I commuted in my own car.

2 Q. Immediately or during the period of April 1992, to the best of

3 your knowledge, were the trains and buses in operation that worked on a

4 regular basis so that they would provide you public transportation to go

5 from your home in Omarska to the city/town of Prijedor?

6 A. After April, there weren't any -- I don't know the exact

7 timetable. Before April, there were. But then around the 30th of April

8 and later on in May, June, July, I'm not sure. There was no public

9 transportation. There were no buses. And as far as I can remember, there

10 were no trains either. I drove in my own cars, and I heard that there

11 were no buses and there were no trains running at that time.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would this be an appropriate time for a break?

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But before taking the break, we have to resolve

15 one issue. Taking into account what has been discussed during our last 65

16 ter (i) meeting, we would have the possibility to sit tomorrow in the

17 morning from 9.00 to a quarter to 2.00 instead of a quarter past 2.00 to

18 7.00. Is it convenient for all the parties to move to the morning

19 session?

20 MR. OSTOJIC: We have scheduled a meeting with Dr. Stakic at

21 11.00. I'm sure we could reschedule that for 3.00. So with respect to

22 that, it may cause a problem for us because we're not sure if we could get

23 access at that late hour. Secondly, we've reserved a meeting with our

24 witness for tomorrow until tomorrow morning. But I can make some phone

25 calls and see if he would be available to meet in the late hours this

Page 11936

1 evening. If so, then we'll complete that.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I understand. Could you please be so kind and

3 give us your final response immediately after the break.

4 From the side of the Prosecution, there seems to be no obstacle.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let me take the opportunity that it has to be

7 add to the transcript that the Prosecution is now also represented by

8 Ms. Sutherland, and in addition --

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'd like to introduce

10 Mr. Halfpenny who is an intern with our office.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Welcome.

12 The trial stays adjourned until half past 3.00

13 --- Recess taken at 3.02 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 3.32 p.m.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. May I ask before we start,

16 what about tomorrow?

17 MR. OSTOJIC: With all due respect, Your Honour, if possible the

18 Defence would like to keep the same schedule from 2.15 to 7.00 or whatever

19 the schedule was. If the Court would like to start a little earlier, we

20 would be happy to do that, even as early as 1.00. Only because we would

21 hope to finish by tomorrow night, and our second problem is that the

22 proffer has not been tendered because the witness just flew in and we are

23 going to prepare it this evening, and we would like to give the OTP an

24 adequate opportunity to review that proffer, among other reasons.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I would say in your words "fair enough." Let's

Page 11937

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 11938

1 try to find out -- but here I don't know whether it would cause any

2 problems related to the lunchtime in the Detention Unit for Dr. Stakic if

3 we would start, say, at 1.00. I don't know.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: Based on the -- based on the detention rules, he

5 will be able to have a meal prior to his departure. And I would assume he

6 would depart at about 12.30, and he would be able to get a meal at 11:30

7 or so. And I would just move my schedule and meeting with him. We are

8 now presently set to meet at 11.00. But to that extent, we can

9 accommodate the Court, yes.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's in the interests of the waiting

11 witnesses. May I ask Madam Registrar to find out what is possible,

12 especially related to all the people working for us, and first of all

13 making us understand each other, if possible. If you could tell me as

14 soon as possible what will be the outcome. So the preference would be to

15 start at 1.00, and to go until 7.00. If not possible, we would start a

16 quarter past 2.00 as scheduled and go on until 7.00 because I think the

17 reasons given by the Defence are convincing.

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11939

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, while the witness is coming in, I

23 think out of an abundance of caution, we should perhaps have this last bit

24 of discussion redacted from the transcript.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: And to be of further assistance to the OTP, I'll not

Page 11940

1 only concur, but I'll also ask the Court the prior mention of that be

2 redacted. I'm not sure that was in open session, because I think we went

3 into private when we identified that individual by his pseudonym. But for

4 the protection of the witness and also as a courtesy to the OTP, if that

5 can be redacted.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If this could be done, it would be very

7 helpful. So this would cover page 86 in part, and we have to return I

8 don't know to which page when the pseudonym and the name of this person

9 was mentioned. So this should be redacted, if Madam Registrar could be of

10 assistance. I thank her in advance.

11 So please. Just to be on the safe side, we are in public session,

12 aren't we?

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, for my purposes. I apologise, Your Honour. I

14 thought the question was directed at the Madam Registrar. For our

15 purposes, we would like to proceed in public session.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay, then we proceed in public session. And

17 the floor is yours, Mr. Ostojic.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Good afternoon once again, Mr. Rosic.

20 A. Good afternoon again.

21 Q. I'm going to try if possible to cover some other essential

22 points. And forgive me if I jump around a little bit, but I'll try in my

23 question to give you preparatory time period in which I'd like to discuss

24 with you. But before I begin I'd like to lay the foundation in connection

25 with the following series of questions, and that is, sir: Can you tell us

Page 11941

1 whether or not you know the gentleman by the name of Dr. Milomir Stakic.

2 A. I know him very well.

3 Q. Can you share with us, Mr. Rosic, how is it that you know him very

4 well?

5 A. I know him for a long time, and there are a number of reasons for

6 which I know him. I married his aunt, his father -- that is, Dr. Milomir

7 Stakic's grandfather and my wife's father were brothers. That's the first

8 reason. And second reason is that after graduation, for a long time, he

9 lived as a tenant very near me. Actually, he was my first-door

10 neighbour. He was a tenant with a lady there. We were friends. We

11 were -- we are related. So that's how I know him so well.

12 In 1991, when he was elected the vice-president, he commuted with

13 me when he went to work in Prijedor.

14 Q. Very well. Since you raised the issue, can you tell us, sir, with

15 what regularity Dr. Stakic accompanied you when you would go to work in

16 the city/town of Prijedor, during the time period that he was

17 vice-president of the Municipal Assembly in Prijedor?

18 A. Almost every day when he couldn't go to Prijedor, then he wouldn't

19 travel with me. But for as long as he was vice-president, all the time we

20 commuted to work together.

21 Q. And I know you mentioned what your mode of transportation was

22 during that time period. But just so that I wouldn't ask you a leading

23 question and being presumptuous, share with us what the mode of

24 transportation was when Dr. Stakic accompanied you to the city/town of

25 Prijedor, on a regular and continuous basis?

Page 11942

1 A. Every morning while he was vice-president, every morning I would

2 get up. I would get into my car. And at half past 7.00, we would head

3 for Prijedor. That's what we did in the morning. But he didn't return

4 with me because sometimes he would stay longer. He had a different work

5 routine. So I wouldn't drive him back home. But since we're friends,

6 since we're related, I would give him a lift in the morning so that he

7 didn't have to take a bus or a train. I went to work to Prijedor every

8 day. I had my car, and I gave him a lift regularly every morning.

9 Q. Okay. So the mode of transportation was by vehicle, by car. And

10 it was your car that you would take with Dr. Stakic every day to the

11 city/town of Prijedor, correct?

12 A. Yes, correct. That was my own personal vehicle.

13 Q. Share with us, if you know, why Dr. Stakic didn't take his own

14 mode of transportation or his own vehicle to the city/town of Prijedor,

15 while he was vice-president of the Municipal Assembly?

16 A. Because he didn't have his own car. Dr. Stakic comes from a

17 rather poor family. He was very young when he graduated from the school

18 of medicine and became a physician. When he started working, his salary

19 was not very high, so he worked. He got married. He had a lot of

20 expenses, and he simply couldn't afford his own car. I helped him out by

21 giving him a lift. I told him for as long as I go, you will go with me.

22 Even during his free time, if he needed a car on Saturday or on Sunday to

23 visit his parents who lived some 4 kilometres away from Omarska, I would

24 loan him my car so he could go there. He couldn't use his own car for a

25 simple reason: He didn't have one.

Page 11943

1 Q. And I appreciate your patience on these issues, and forgive me for

2 asking some of the details although perhaps obvious. Sir, how far is the

3 town in which are from and the town that Dr. Stakic is from, how far is

4 that in relation to the city/town of Prijedor in which you drove

5 Dr. Stakic every day?

6 A. 23 kilometres exactly from my house to Prijedor.

7 Q. Now, share with us how far your house was in the spring -- prior

8 to April 1992, how far your house was from that of Dr. Stakic's.

9 A. The distance was the same from my [as interpreted] house to my

10 house was about 4 to 5 metres. We all practically shared the same

11 courtyard. His entrance and my entrance were 4 to 5 metres apart.

12 Q. Now, how long would it take you to go from your home to the

13 city/town of Prijedor, during the time period in which you drove Dr.

14 Stakic? In minutes, how long would it take?

15 A. Usually it took us about 20 to 25 minutes. But we always left at

16 half past 6.00 to be in our respective workplaces at 7.00. 25 minutes is

17 a -- is the minimum of time that it took. But we left half an hour

18 earlier to be on the safe side, to be in our workplace on time.

19 Q. During that time period, sir, did you have an opportunity to

20 discuss numerous issues with Dr. Stakic in the car, you and Dr. Stakic

21 alone?

22 A. We talked, of course. We talked. We got on well, and we talked

23 about all sorts of things. It depended on our mood and the topic of

24 issues.

25 Q. Did there come, sir, a time in which you ceased giving Dr. Stakic

Page 11944

1 a ride, as you described yourself, being a neighbour, a friend, and also a

2 relative by marriage? Did there come a time, sir, that you stopped giving

3 Dr. Stakic a ride to the city/town of Prijedor?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Share with us --

6 A. The time came on the 30th of April, 1992. Like every morning, I

7 got up, I got into my car. I turned the engine on, and I waited for him

8 to join me for a ride to Prijedor. He was already a few minutes late when

9 I decided to go and ring his bell. His wife Bozana answered the door and

10 told me: "Miso left with the police some 20 minutes ago." I asked her

11 what had happened. She said, "Nothing really." And from that time on, I

12 didn't give him a ride. So it was on the 30th of April.

13 Q. We'll get to that day specifically in a moment; however, I have a

14 couple questions. Immediately prior to the 30th of April, 1992, when you

15 ceased giving Dr. Stakic a ride to the city/town of Prijedor, prior to

16 that time, meaning in essence, April 29th, 28th, 27th, and 26th, sir, did

17 you have an occasion to give Dr. Stakic a ride as you have done in the

18 past to the city/town of Prijedor?

19 A. Yes. All these days I gave him a ride to Prijedor. It came as a

20 surprise to me that I did not give him a ride on the 30th.

21 Q. Can you share with us, sir, prior to April 30th, meaning the time

22 period immediately before that in which you gave Dr. Stakic a ride to the

23 city/town of Prijedor, do you recall that whether or not Dr. Stakic --

24 strike that. Do you recall what Dr. Stakic's disposition was?

25 A. I did not notice anything unusual. He behaved just like every

Page 11945

1 other day. I did not see -- I didn't notice that he was more tense than

2 usual. Just like any other day.

3 Q. Did you notice any nervousness or anxiousness prior -- during the

4 time period prior to April 30th, 1992, that we're discussing?

5 A. No, I didn't. I didn't notice anything. On the contrary, in the

6 afternoon, we socialised. We were joking around with his aunt, who is at

7 the same time my wife, Milka. We couldn't notice anything unusual about

8 him.

9 Q. Did at any time Dr. Stakic prior to the 30th of April share with

10 you any purported theory of a plan for a takeover of Prijedor on April

11 30th, 1992?

12 A. No, never. He didn't mention any actions that would have anything

13 to do with his job. He didn't express any suspicions. We discussed

14 family matters. I never heard from him advocating any such thing.

15 Q. Now, let me direct your attention if we can to the morning of

16 April 30th, 1992. You started to share with us the fact that you were

17 waiting for Dr. Stakic, and after several minutes - and I apologise that

18 I'm paraphrasing your testimony, but you're welcome to correct me if I'm

19 wrong, you waited for him for several minutes. And then you proceeded to

20 go on his door to determine where he was. And you were at that time

21 approached or saw Dr. Stakic's wife, Mrs. Bozana. Correct?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Tell me, sir, with as much specificity as you can based upon your

24 recollection, what is it that you told Mrs. Bozana and what did she tell

25 you in response, and tell us where this conversation happened.

Page 11946

1 A. I rang the bell. Bozana answered the door. She opened the door.

2 I asked her: "Where is the doctor? Are we going to work or not?" She

3 answered: "Miso left. The police drove him away some 15 or 20 minutes

4 ago." I asked her: "What happened?" She said: "Nothing. Nothing bad

5 happened. Just go on. Do whatever you have to do." That's how it was.

6 Q. Did you, sir, proceed to go to the city/town of Prijedor, on the

7 30th of April, 1992?

8 And can you tell me what it is that you saw or learned on the 30th

9 of April, 1992, when you arrived in the city/town of Prijedor?

10 A. I went to Prijedor. When I arrived at my company, I heard that

11 there had been a takeover. I was surprised. I didn't know what was taken

12 over, how was it taken over. And then they told me that the police and

13 the army had occupied the municipal building and some other facilities,

14 and then I heard that from my colleagues. I didn't hear anything else.

15 Q. Who told you that, sir, if you recall?

16 A. My colleagues at work, Dojcinovic. There were a number of people

17 there. Jusuf Harambasic himself, the director of the company, was there.

18 Q. Can you tell us, sir, did at any time after April 30th, 1992, you

19 have an opportunity to drive Dr. Stakic to the city/town of Prijedor?

20 A. No. After that, I didn't. A few days later, I didn't really see

21 him. And then later on, I heard that he had an official driver who drove

22 him around and that he had an official car.

23 Q. Do you know, sir, the name of that driver that was officially

24 driving Dr. Stakic around?

25 A. Yes. Petar Stanar who still works in the municipality as a

Page 11947

1 driver.

2 Q. Just briefly - and I apologise because it's perhaps a deviation

3 from the line of questions that I previously said to you - this Mr. Jusuf

4 Harambasic, I think you mentioned that he was of the Muslim ethnic

5 background. Do you know, sir, if he still alive today?

6 A. Yes, he is alive. He comes to Prijedor from Sanski Most where he

7 resides. He visited -- he has visited us in the company also.

8 Q. Can you tell me during the period subsequent or after April 30th,

9 1992, did you have an opportunity to see or visit with Dr. Milomir Stakic?

10 A. Well, no longer as often as I used to. But I would go to the

11 municipality for my work tasks, and I did meet him once in the corridor,

12 in the hall of the Municipal Assembly. We exchanged the usual questions,

13 how are you doing, that sort of thing.

14 Q. After exchanging those typical pleasantries, did you then, sir,

15 proceed to discuss with Dr. Stakic anything of a personal concern to you?

16 A. Nothing special. I just asked him how he was doing. And I said:

17 "Well, there's one thing, though, I'd like to ask you about." He said:

18 "My brother has a son. And he said: "Yes, I know." And he said:

19 Because their gardens were facing each other. And I asked him whether he

20 could get the son exempted from military service, and then Dr. Stakic told

21 me:

22 "Look, I'm sorry, but really I have nothing to do with these things, I'm

23 nowhere near in charge of these things, and I don't think I could possibly

24 help you." And then I said: "Well, that's fine. That's all right then."

25 And then I left.

Page 11948

1 Q. And tell us so that we can have a better understanding, when did

2 this happen in May of 1992?

3 A. It was in the second half of May because he had already moved to

4 Prijedor, so I was no longer seeing as much of him as I used to. In the

5 second half of May, perhaps about the 20th of May, I believe. Although

6 it's very difficult for me to pinpoint the exact date.

7 Q. Now, sir, to ask you some general questions in connection with

8 your duties and obligations as an employee of the department of communal

9 services, were you, sir, issued any new identification cards or passes

10 after April 30th of 1992, or did you, sir, continue to maintain the same

11 identifications that you had in your possession after April 1992 as you

12 had prior to April 30th, 1992?

13 A. I had the same documents as before. I think in 1995 and 1996,

14 there were no new documents.

15 Q. So is it fair, sir, that you were not issued any new

16 identification cards or documents following the takeover on April 30th,

17 1992? Correct?

18 A. No new identification cards were issued. No ID cards, nothing

19 new.

20 Q. I apologise to the witness --

21 MR. OSTOJIC: But just if I can raise something with the Court

22 relating to the transcript. On page 95, line 19 through 20, we think the

23 witness said, although I can clarify it if the Court thinks it's

24 necessary, I believe the witness said it was until 1995 and 1996 that they

25 received those documents.

Page 11949

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you please be so kind and ask the same

2 question.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: I will. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Rosic, I apologise for having to go back to some questions.

5 And just to clarify this issue with the identification, when did you

6 obtain new identification cards and documents? What year was it?

7 A. 1996.

8 Q. Just to clarify this issue, and I know I believe you've answered

9 it, the documents that were in your possession prior to April 1992, did

10 you continue to use and have those documents after 1992 up until 1996?

11 A. Yes, of course. I didn't have any other ID documents and no other

12 documents or cards were being issued. So the old ones I had been using

13 them up to 1996, and it was only in 1996 that I was issued a new ID.

14 Q. I apologise for asking this. It is relevant for our purposes,

15 however. Were you issued subsequent to April 30th, 1992, any additional

16 identification cards because you were a person of Serbian ethnic

17 background? Or did you continue to simply have the exact same

18 identifications, they weren't changed, and you didn't receive any

19 additional documents or identification papers?

20 A. I was only using my old documents. I didn't have any additional

21 cards or documents. Even nowadays, I still have the same driving license

22 that was issued to me in 1980-something and it's still valid. The only

23 thing that was changed, I was issued a new ID card in 1996. But aside

24 from that, no other documents or ID cards were changed.

25 Q. I'd like to ask you, sir, during the time period April 30th, 1992,

Page 11950

1 and August of 1992 whether you have a recollection that there was a curfew

2 in place in the city and the municipality of Prijedor?

3 A. I did hear about it, and yes, it had been introduced. But I

4 couldn't give you the exact time frame. Probably, yes, in the period

5 you're referring to. There was a curfew, and all of us who worked, who

6 were employed, were given work assignments or work obligations. It was

7 like a certificate certifying that we were there to work so as to keep the

8 police and the army from taking us under their command. We needed a

9 certificate that we were engaged, that we worked in communal services on

10 very specific tasks.

11 These certificates were being issued by the secretariat for all

12 people's defence, but a list had to be drawn up with the names of people

13 one by one. And it made no difference at all whether someone was a Serb,

14 a Muslim, or a Croat. Everyone needed this certificate from the Ministry

15 of Defence in order to be able to move about freely. This, however,

16 didn't apply to the curfew.

17 During the curfew, only persons carrying special passes issued by

18 the Ministry of the Interior or the police were free to move about.

19 Personally, I was never in possession of any such special documents, nor

20 have I ever seen any such documents.

21 Q. You covered a lot of areas and I'd like to clarify if I may. You

22 mentioned this work obligation. Can you tell us, sir, to the best of your

23 recollection when the work obligation initially commenced.

24 A. The work obligation was introduced as early as June.

25 Q. Sir, could you --

Page 11951

1 A. Whether it was in June or perhaps as early as May, I don't think

2 I'm able to remember precisely.

3 Q. We can appreciate that. Can you share with us, sir, since you

4 were a foreman as you identified yourself in the Department of Communal

5 Services, in the spring and summer of 1992 but more specifically after

6 April 30th of 1992, whether the Muslim, Croatian, and non-Serbs who

7 specifically work under you were also given the paperwork and the work

8 obligation so that they could go to work on a daily and regular basis?

9 A. Yes, yes. Everyone, that's what I said. No distinction was made

10 as regards the ethnic backgrounds of the employees. The managing director

11 drew up a list containing just the number of people that was sufficient

12 for our company to continue to operate. Sanitation work, garbage

13 collection, maintenance of green areas and parks, mowing the lawns,

14 general sanitation work. It didn't matter what your nationality was. All

15 that mattered were your qualifications, your work specialty. All that

16 was -- all we needed to know was whether you were a driver, whether you

17 were a lawn mower. It was only about people's qualifications.

18 Q. Now, sir, I would like to know and again address and you

19 anticipated my question with respect to permits that may have been issued

20 following -- or outside the hours of the curfew. As Dr. Stakic's

21 neighbour, friend, and relative, did you, sir, obtain any authorisation to

22 have access and to go out outside of the hours imposed by the curfew?

23 A. I think I've just said that I received a permit for work from the

24 Ministry of Defence, but this did not apply to the hours of the curfew.

25 If I had wanted to apply for that, I would have had to go through an

Page 11952

1 official channel through my company and request such authorisation from

2 the Ministry of the Interior. So the ministry for all people's defence

3 was in charge of issuing the work obligation. These are two different

4 secretariats, opposite.

5 Q. Thank you. I'd like to go back now to Dr. Stakic, if we can, and

6 you having not only driven him and as you have testified being a friend,

7 relative, and neighbour. Sir, can you tell us if at any time Dr. Stakic

8 exhibited any hatred towards any ethnic group, specifically Muslims,

9 Croatians, or any other non-Serbs?

10 A. I can testify with absolute conviction, and I do know Dr. Stakic

11 very well and I've known him for a very long time, both him and his

12 family, his father, his mother, his brother. I know all of them. I knew

13 what kind of family they are. I know what sort of people they are. I

14 have never heard him utter a word of hate, not a single word. He never

15 talked about Serbs as a separate thing in terms of Serbs being good and

16 Muslims being bad, Croats being bad. I've never heard him utter a single

17 word along these lines. And we never discussed this.

18 Q. Having known Dr. Stakic for the period of time that you described,

19 do you know if he had any prejudices or preconceived prejudices or ill

20 will against Muslims, Croats, and non-Serbs?

21 A. No, it is my firm belief that he never did. There was no need for

22 him to harbour any such ill feelings or prejudices, or even to think

23 anything like that.

24 Q. Sir, I recognise you know his parents, Dr. Stakic's parents as

25 well, and his brother as well as his wife. Can you share with us if any

Page 11953

1 members of Dr. Stakic's immediate family, including his wife, parents, and

2 brother, ever exhibited any signs of hatred, ill will, prejudice, or

3 discrimination against Muslims, Croats, and non-Serbs?

4 A. I certainly never heard them or saw them do anything like that, or

5 harbour any such feelings. We go back a long way. Dr. Stakic's family or

6 his relatives, they are not very political people. So it is my deepest

7 conviction that they never harboured any ill feelings against any group.

8 Q. Let me ask you this question since you raised the issue of

9 politics: Do you know whether in 1991 or 1992 Dr. Milomir Stakic was a

10 member of a party called the People's Radical Party Nikola Pasic?

11 A. Yes, I was aware of that because he was in Omarska. That's where

12 he resided. And he was a local candidate of the party at the elections.

13 So yes, I did know even at a very early stage, I was aware of that. That

14 was before the elections in 1990. He was elected. He got the votes, and

15 he left and assumed the position of the vice-president of the Municipal

16 Assembly in Prijedor.

17 Q. Just correct me if I'm wrong, sir, but unfortunately and quite

18 frankly unintentionally, there may have been some liberties taken with the

19 name of this party. But the party's full name, is it not, sir, is the

20 People's Radical Party Nikola Pasic. Correct?

21 A. The People's Radical Party Nikola Pasic. The people's.

22 Q. I'd like ask you, sir, some questions in connection with the date

23 specifically of May 30th, 1992. Can you share with us, sir, to the best

24 of your recollection what if anything occurred on May 30th, 1992?

25 A. The 30th of May --

Page 11954

1 MR. OSTOJIC: I know it's late, with the Court's permission if I

2 can just maybe help him on this issue here. It might be a leading

3 question, if that's all right with the Court.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have nothing against leading questions. If

5 they are not misleading, please proceed.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Of course. Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Sir, we have essentially for our purposes in this trial set the

8 date of May 30th, 1993, [sic] as the time that there was an attack by

9 Muslim extremists on the city/town of Prijedor. Do you remember that

10 event, sir, as you sit here today?

11 A. I remember that event relatively clearly. There were attacks at

12 night. Tukovi in Prijedor was one of the parts, sections of the town

13 attacked. Stari Grad was attacked, too. And there was fighting, yes.

14 Q. Allow me to clarify a couple points. Were you there, sir, in the

15 city/town of Prijedor on May 30th, 1992, when the attack started or at any

16 time commenced?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. No. I think "nee" means no, Your Honour.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction and apology.

20 A. No, I was in Omarska at that time. I was not in Prijedor.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: I apologise.

22 Q. We're just having a little bit of -- it's late and I appreciate

23 your patience. Let me ask you this question just so that we're clear for

24 the record again. Sir, were you physically in the city/town of Prijedor

25 on May 30th, 1992?

Page 11955

1 A. No, no, I was not there.

2 Q. Subsequent or after that date, did you have an occasion, sir, to

3 go to the city/town of Prijedor in your capacity as an employee of the

4 Department of Communal Services after the attack on Prijedor?

5 A. Not on that day, I didn't go. But on subsequent days, yes, I did

6 go. And I didn't take my usual route, I didn't take the usual route

7 through Kozarac, but rather I took a detour through Maricka, Rakelici, the

8 road for Tomasica and then on to Prijedor. I was scared and I had heard

9 that one couldn't travel through Kozarac.

10 Q. Tell us, sir, when you arrived in the city/town of Prijedor that

11 which you observed.

12 A. Excuse me. I heard and I saw then that there was a riot in

13 Prijedor. There was shattered glass. There were buildings that were

14 damaged. It was a chaos. I couldn't believe my eyes. I couldn't believe

15 that such things had happened, and I couldn't bring myself to believe that

16 any such thing was possible. It was unlike anything I had seen up to that

17 point.

18 Q. Who, sir, had the responsibility to clean up the city/town of

19 Prijedor after the attack by, as we have coined them, Muslim extremists

20 on -- after May 30th, 1992? Who is it that picked up the garbage,

21 replaced the glass from the floor and placed -- please.

22 A. My work unit was collecting the garbage, was cleaning the glass,

23 the shattered glass away. And whatever a man was strong enough to lift in

24 his hands. This took days. There was a lot to be cleaned out. It took

25 us between seven and ten days to deal with this situation. But where

Page 11956

1 major damage had occurred or where parts of buildings had been damaged or

2 collapsed, there was a different unit with their own machines who were

3 dealing with that.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I'd like now because of the time of the

6 day to go into the matter that we discussed previously in private session.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Will it be time enough that we can conclude.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. Would it be time enough to do this in

10 the next seven minutes or would it be more appropriate to do it tomorrow?

11 MR. OSTOJIC: I believe I can finish it. It's really not as

12 lengthy as everyone is anticipating.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Then let's go into private session,

14 please.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

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Page 11961

1 (redacted).

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

3 at 4.35 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

4 the 7th day of February, 2003,

5 at 1.00 p.m.

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