Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12684

1 Thursday, 27 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.34 p.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon to everybody. Please be seated.

6 I can already see Madam Dahuron. But first of all, let's hear the

7 case number, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

9 IT-97-24-T, the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the appearances, please, for the

11 Prosecution.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Ann Sutherland and

13 Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon. And for the Defence.

15 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and

16 John Ostojic for the Defence.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the third party, I can see the

18 appearance of Madam Dahuron in Banja Luka. Good afternoon to Banja Luka

19 once again.

20 Let's have a sound check. Could you please speak.

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Banja Luka] Good afternoon, Your Honour. Can you

22 hear me?

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, that's fine. Let's have the usual view

24 around the room, and at the same time, please, escort the witness into

25 your office.

Page 12685

1 So proofing procedure or what's happening?

2 [Witness testified through videolink]

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, Mr. Gruban, here from The

4 Hague. Can you hear me in Banja Luka in a language you understand?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you please be so kind and give us your

7 solemn declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. You may be seated, please. And

11 before starting with the examination, may I ask you, is it necessary to

12 grant you any kind of protective measures, or are you prepared to testify

13 in public?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have nothing against testifying in

15 public.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. You're called as a Defence witness,

17 therefore, the floor is for the Defence. Mr. Ostojic will put questions

18 to you.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Mr. Ostojic:

23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gruban. My name is John Ostojic, and along

24 with Mr. Branko Lukic, we represent Milomir Stakic. I'll be asking you a

25 series of questions here today in connection with this case, and the

Page 12686

1 information that you had provided to us previously. If at any time, sir,

2 you do not understand my question, please state so, and I will attempt to

3 clarify the question so that you may fully understand it and give us a

4 truthful and complete answer. Is that a fair way to proceed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Gruban, for the record, can you please state your

7 full name, your first and last name, please.

8 A. Dragoljub Gruban, son of, Krstan.

9 Q. Can you tell us where you were born, what municipality, please?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

12 Q. Can you please tell us where you were born and in which

13 municipality does that town belong in?

14 A. I was born in the village of Maricka in the municipality of

15 Prijedor.

16 Q. Am I correct to understand, sir, that throughout your entire life,

17 you lived in the village or in the municipal -- municipality of Prijedor?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. May we have your date of birth.

20 A. 1938, on the 20th of April.

21 Q. May we, sir, have your father's name as well?

22 A. My father's name is Krstan.

23 Q. Let me just, if I can clarify, can you tell me who Stojan is?

24 A. My father's name is Krstan.

25 Q. Can you tell me, sir, by way of background what profession were

Page 12687

1 you engaged in at the time when you were gainfully employed?

2 A. I was a worker.

3 Q. Can you help us understand in what profession or area were you

4 employed as a worker?

5 A. While I was employed in Belgrade, I was a foreman at a forwarding

6 agents.

7 Q. Just to speed things along a little bit, can you tell us in 1992,

8 were you gainfully employed, and if so, where?

9 A. In 1992, I wasn't gainfully employed. I stopped working in 1980,

10 and I haven't worked since.

11 Q. Can you just briefly outline for us your educational background.

12 A. Just primary school. Nothing more.

13 Q. Sir, am I correct that you have children?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us how many children you've had?

16 A. Three sons and one daughter.

17 Q. Are all your children currently alive?

18 A. No. One was killed on Gradacac in 1992.

19 Q. I apologise for having to inquire a little further about your son

20 who was killed in 1992. Was his name Marko Gruban?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And sir, he was killed on the day -- on the anniversary of his

23 birthday, correct? Essentially he was born on December 17th, 1971, and he

24 died on December 17th, 1992. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12688

1 Q. My sincerest sympathies in connection with that, and I apologise

2 for having to further inquire on this issue. But can you please tell us,

3 how is it that your son ultimately --

4 A. Thank you.

5 Q. -- died?

6 A. I was at home. It was wartime. And in 1992, on the 17th of

7 December, I experienced a shock when I saw the army -- the military

8 bringing a coffin in front of my house. It was then that I realised it

9 was my son when they showed him to me. Then I buried him, and to this

10 day, I don't know how he was killed or what happened.

11 Q. Sir, was your son mobilised as a result of the war and the

12 hostilities that were predominant in the region in 1991 and 1992, to the

13 best of your recollection?

14 A. He didn't serve in the army because he had an eye defect. But in

15 1991, there was an amnesty, that's what it was called. And all those who

16 were unfit to serve in the army were asked to come before a commission.

17 The commission established that he was able to go to war, and the military

18 police came and took him away. And they took him off to war in 1992. And

19 after that, I never saw him again until they brought him home dead.

20 Q. Sir, was there anything you, as a parent, that you were able to do

21 in terms of exercising any influence to prevent your son from being

22 mobilised and placed into battle in 1992, as you've so described?

23 A. Well, I had two other sons. The eldest was Dragisa, he was on the

24 Slavonian front. And I had another son Ljubisa, he was the middle one.

25 He was in the Territorial Defence. The third son, because he was unfit, I

Page 12689












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Page 12690

1 asked the military command that he be exempt. But as I have just told

2 you, when he went for a checkup, they declared him fit and took him off.

3 So that's how it all ended.

4 Q. Just so that we can have a better appreciation, where was the

5 military command, sir, that you went to to ask for your son to obtain an

6 exemption because of his medical condition so that your youngest son,

7 Marko, would not have to serve in the military? Where did you go?

8 A. To Prijedor, to Kozara where the military was, to the military

9 command.

10 Q. Is that what you mean when you say "Kasarna"? Is that where it

11 was?

12 A. Yes, yes, in the barracks. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Now, your eldest son, Dragisa, as you've mentioned, was he, sir,

14 also wounded in the war when he served in Slavonia in 1991?

15 A. He was wounded, yes.

16 Q. Did your eldest son Dragisa serve in the military in any capacity

17 any time after he was wounded in 1991?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You mentioned your middle son Ljubisa.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that he was a member of the Territorial Defence. Can you tell

22 us to the extent that you recall for what period did he serve as a member

23 of the Territorial Defence?

24 A. As he had had a kidney operation, they put him in the Territorial

25 Defence. From 1992 until 1994, he remained there.

Page 12691

1 Q. Was it the military that mobilised your son Ljubisa into the

2 Territorial Defence, Mr. Gruban?

3 A. It was done in the local commune that was in charge of the

4 Territorial Defence in case a village had to be defended. And they were

5 also in charge of collecting food and clothes for the soldiers on the

6 front lines. And then they would take that to them and so on.

7 Q. Mr. Gruban, do you recall a period in May of 1992 when the

8 Territorial Defence was abolished and that it was actually subsumed under

9 and to be included as part of the military?

10 A. I couldn't tell you that now. I wasn't interested in things like

11 that.

12 Q. I understand. Thank you, sir. Sir, I also note from my review

13 that you are a member or president of an association of families of killed

14 soldiers in the local commune in which you reside. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about this organisation, when it was

17 formed, the purpose or mission of the organisation, and tell us a little

18 bit about what you do within that organisation.

19 A. This organisation was established after the war in 1995. This

20 organisation has a president in every local commune, and these make up the

21 presidency. Our aim is to solve the problems of soldiers, of veterans,

22 actually, to help them obtain housing, to help them construct homes. And

23 to solve the problems of orphans, to assist them as far as we are able

24 to. We dealt with a number of problems, problems that children or rather

25 orphans and veterans had.

Page 12692

1 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to turn the topic slightly, if you don't mind,

2 and I'm going to ask you whether or not you personally know Dr. Milomir

3 Stakic.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us, sir, when you first met his acquaintance.

6 A. I knew him when he was a child. One of my sons was born in 1962,

7 the same year he was born. They went to school together. And when I went

8 to PTA meetings, I knew of him as a young boy. I knew him when he went to

9 secondary school and when he was a student. And I know that when I was

10 home for the holidays on weekends, we had voluntary road-building drives,

11 and he was very active there. He would help us. We also worked on

12 preparing sports fields, and he liked to play football, so he would come

13 and help us in that. And that's how I knew him for the most part.

14 Q. Did you also, sir, have an opportunity to know Dr. Milomir

15 Stakic's father, Milan?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you share with us your relationship with Milan Stakic,

18 Dr. Stakic's father.

19 A. He was very correct. We were of the same generation, and we were

20 mobilised into the former army together. And as young men, we would look

21 at the girls together. We respected each other. We never quarrelled. We

22 never held any grudges against each other.

23 Q. Can you describe for us to the extent that you're able, based upon

24 the period of time that you knew Dr. Milomir Stakic, his character,

25 reputation, and integrity, as you knew him and as it was perceived in the

Page 12693

1 community.

2 A. Well, from my experience, I know that he was a decent young man.

3 As I've just said, he went to school. He was a good boy. And when he was

4 holding his office, I never heard people say anything but nice things

5 about him. He was respectable. If people went to see him for some

6 reason, he would receive them nicely. He was polite to them. I never

7 heard anything bad about him. That's what I can say.

8 Q. Do you recall, sir, visiting Dr. Stakic after your son was brought

9 from the military, after you learned of his death, after September [sic]

10 17th, 1992, to visit Dr. Stakic -- December 17th, 1992, to visit

11 Dr. Stakic in connection with plans for the burial and funeral of your

12 son?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you enlighten us and give us the circumstances of that

15 visit, sir. Why did you go see Dr. Stakic? What was it you wanted to

16 obtain, if anything, from him?

17 A. Well, as I said, I went to ask for help with the funeral. But the

18 military took charge of this. They donated a coffin and some food.

19 Mr. Stakic also helped me, but I have already forgotten. There was some

20 aid in food and in money. That was Yugoslav money, and it would be hard

21 to calculate what the value was in German marks. But he did help me in my

22 pain and suffering.

23 Q. Can you tell us, so that we can obtain a little better idea about

24 Dr. Stakic's father, Milan, did he at any time that you knew him hold or

25 have any nationalistic ideas or ideology?

Page 12694

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can you tell us, sir, if you're familiar with the iron ore mine in

3 Omarska. Do you know that it's in existence, and specifically in 1992, do

4 you know that it existed?

5 A. Yes, yes, of course I know. It's a mine in Omarska which was

6 opened for mining purposes and the facilities that they later called a

7 camp was constructed for the repair and maintenance of the machinery used

8 in the mine. That's what I knew. And I heard that it had been turned

9 into a camp. But even when it was used for civilian purposes before the

10 war, I was not able to enter it. But especially later when it became a

11 camp, I was not able to enter it either, so I never went there.

12 Q. When you say when the Rudnik iron ore mine facility was used for

13 civilian purposes before the war, sir, are you telling us that prior to

14 the war, the iron ore mine was used to manufacture and produce iron ore,

15 correct, and that is what you mean when you say for civilian purposes?

16 Correct?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Once the war started in the spring and summer of 1992, you

19 mentioned that it was used as a camp. Do you know who used the facility

20 as a camp? Who was using the facility as a camp?

21 A. I wouldn't know. I told you, I did not go near it, nor was I

22 interested in it. It was wartime, and I was at home.

23 Q. Just another couple questions on the background of Dr. Stakic and

24 his father. Do you know if his grandfather, your friend Milan's father,

25 whether he fought in World War II and in what capacity did he fight?

Page 12695












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Page 12696

1 A. Yes, I know that he participated in the war, when there was a war

2 from 1941 to 1945. I had a brother, too, and that is Milan's father. And

3 they were killed. My brother was killed in 1942. I wouldn't know when he

4 was killed, but he did. It was the same army, everything was the same.

5 Q. And which army was that, sir?

6 A. It was called the Yugoslav People's Army.

7 Q. So more specifically, sir --

8 A. Partizans.

9 Q. That was my question. Thank you for adding it. But just to the

10 record is clear, was Milan Stakic's father a member of the Partizan group

11 or the Chetnik group during World War II?

12 A. Partizans.

13 Q. Thank you. In 1993, sir, did you have an opportunity to seek out

14 Dr. Stakic again for any care and treatment to other members of your

15 family?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances of that visit, please.

18 A. I had my wife, Dusanka, and she fell and broke her hip, or leg, as

19 we call it, at home. And she underwent the operation in Banja Luka. But

20 when that was over, three months later after the treatment, she needed to

21 go to a spa. So I asked Dr. Stakic to help me. Since it was wartime, I

22 had no money. One couldn't get to a spa. And Mr. Stakic helped me as a

23 doctor, as a physician, he wrote a recommendation so that my wife was

24 granted 21 days of treatment in Miljecanici spa.

25 Q. And this was during the time that Dr. Stakic was employed and

Page 12697

1 working at the health centre. Correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Mr. Gruban, on behalf of Dr. Stakic, we want to thank you for

4 assisting us. And we have no further questions. But now, as is the

5 procedure here, the Office of the Prosecution will put some questions to

6 you, and the Court may as well. Once again, thank you, sir, for coming to

7 help us in this case.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I give now the floor to Ms. Sutherland,

9 representative of the Prosecution in this case. Please, Ms. Sutherland.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good afternoon, Mr. Gruban. I'm very sorry that

11 you lost your son during 1992. And the Prosecution does not have any

12 questions for you. Thank you.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I've only one single question.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Have you ever been a neighbour of Dr. Stakic?

16 A. Well, I've already said it. We are in a village which is called

17 Gornja Maricka, and our house is about 3 kilometres apart, because houses

18 in the village are quite scattered.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That's all. I thank you for this additional

20 clarification. May I ask, Judge Vassylenko, do you have any further

21 questions? No questions.

22 Judge Argibay.



25 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Good afternoon, Mr. Gruban. Can you tell me --

Page 12698

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Can you tell me if you know about the creation or

3 formation of a political group called the People's Radical Party Nikola

4 Pasic?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. I have no more questions.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it remains for me to thank you, Mr. Gruban,

8 for coming to the office and testifying in this case and assisting the

9 Trial Chamber. Thank you, and you are excused for today. This concludes

10 today's videoconference, and once again, thanks to all the persons who are

11 assisting us in Banja Luka in establishing this videolink. Thank you, and

12 until tomorrow.

13 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We can proceed now by hearing the next witness.

15 As to the fact that we have to conclude at a quarter to 5.00, the next

16 break will be an extraordinary short one. Therefore, the trial stays

17 adjourned only until 3.20. And I would ask the usher, before the Bench

18 comes back, already to escort the witness into the courtroom. Thank you.

19 --- Break taken at 3.09 p.m.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 --- On resuming at 3.24 p.m.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

23 Mr. Rosic, please be seated as well.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have to thank you for coming another time.

Page 12699

1 And let's just continue with the cross-examination.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. With Your Honour's

3 leave, I will complete Mr. Koumjian's cross-examination due to his ill

4 health.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Sutherland:

8 Q. Mr. Rosic, yesterday afternoon you gave evidence that

9 approximately 20 or so buses arrived at the Omarska camp. Were those

10 buses Autotransport Prijedor buses?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You worked at the camp until August of 1992. Is that correct?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. And on other occasions when you saw detainees being brought to the

15 camp, were they being brought to the camp also in Autotransport Prijedor

16 buses?

17 A. Yes, there were more Autotransport Prijedor buses.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I have no further questions of the

19 witness.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But please understand that it is for us, the

21 Judges, having never been in Prijedor, sometimes a little bit difficult to

22 understand. And therefore some question may seem for you a very simple

23 one.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But let's start with your testimony of

Page 12700

1 yesterday. You told us about the arrival of buses, and then you shouldn't

2 be confused, it's only for the purpose of our transcript, on page 50,

3 LiveNote yesterday, line 15, you stated: "I only saw them when they

4 arrived in buses. People were objecting, protesting. People didn't want

5 them to be brought to the mine."

6 Can you give us a more clear picture of what happened. Who were

7 these people objecting? How did they object?

8 A. They protested saying that that would not be all right, that there

9 would be more problems if people were brought there, as there were many

10 people being brought there, and they were mostly civilians.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But please tell me how did they know that these

12 people brought in were mostly civilians, and why did they protest?

13 A. They protested because they were being brought there. They were

14 local people. They must have had certain suspicions that something was

15 wrong with bringing all those people there.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you tell us how many people were there

17 protesting?

18 A. Well, I didn't really know how many exactly, but that was the

19 largest group of people, women and men in all these protests.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But it is still difficult for me to understand,

21 how could they know in advance what was happening in there? The buses

22 arriving, but the protesters already being there. How did they know

23 beforehand what would happen, that the buses would arrive?

24 A. Well, the state of war had started. There was gunfire, and they

25 realised that the situation wasn't quite as it should be. I'm really not

Page 12701












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Page 12702

1 in a position to explain it properly. Well, it was practically the state

2 of war, and people had certain doubts. They realised that something was

3 wrong seeing that all those people were coming there.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the usher to, first of all, show me

5 Exhibit S15-16 I think it was. Only that there is no misconception, we

6 are referring now to S15-16 only, not -1.

7 May the witness please be shown S15-16. May I ask you, Mr. Rosic,

8 do you -- you can see what is depicted on this photograph?

9 A. This photograph shows, I think, that they stopped at the very

10 entrance, at the very front gate. That is where they stopped the buses.

11 I think there are some buses, it seems to me, in front of this building.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could it please be zoomed in a little bit.

13 Thank you. So if the witness --

14 A. Yes, that's a building. That's a building. Now I see it. That's

15 a building where people were.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know the buildings?

17 A. I do. Yes, I recall it.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could the witness please be given a red marker.

19 Could you please mark the place where the buses arrived. If I'm correct,

20 and I apologise for the parties, to the best of my recollection, you

21 yesterday said that when you arrived for the morning shift, the buses were

22 already in front of the area and waiting for entrance. Would you show us

23 where this was.

24 A. At the gate. There was a gate on this side, but you can't see it

25 here. They were standing at the gate in a queue facing the building. But

Page 12703

1 I just don't see that building. You can't see it here.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would it be to the -- please indicate on the

3 ELMO, if you could move to the other side, to your right-hand side, and

4 with the marker show the direction from where the buses arrived?

5 A. From this direction, from -- I can see it better on the screen

6 over there. But they came from this direction, the buses.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: On the side of the administration building,

8 there was the entrance, correct, and there the buses waiting when you

9 arrived coming to work? Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please -- I know that not the entire

12 area is covered by this picture. But could you make -- mark the area from

13 where the buses actually came with an E. Capital E, please.

14 A. Where do you mean? Should I put it on the screen or...? Oh,

15 here. Letter A.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. For the transcript, it's marked with the

17 letter A where, if I understand you, the buses waited in front of the

18 entrance door when you arrived. Correct?

19 A. Correct. They were at the gate waiting, the front gate.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And then you mentioned yesterday the place where

21 your working place, in fact, was. Could you please mark this area or this

22 house, if you can identify this, with a capital B.

23 A. This building was above, at the end.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In addition, yesterday you mentioned that you

25 were warned to enter not a specific area because there would be mines, and

Page 12704

1 it would be dangerous for you to enter this area. Could you please mark

2 this area.

3 A. That area was above the petrol pump, but I can't really see it

4 well. Up next to the petrol pump, I can't get my bearings exactly where

5 that is, where the petrol pump. There, they said it wasn't safe to go

6 there.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you indicate approximately the area where

8 this was.

9 A. I don't even know approximately because I can't really read this

10 photograph well. I know the petrol pump, but I just can't say where it

11 is. The petrol pump was somewhere up there, that direction, but I can't

12 really -- I'm afraid to mark anything. If I had the whole view, then I'd

13 be able to do that. But like this, on the screen...

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it would be correct that on this picture, the

15 area would be on the right-hand side, far more to the right of the place

16 where you worked and that you marked with a B. Correct?

17 A. It is.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever see armed police or military forces

19 on the territory of this investigation centre?

20 A. Yes, yes, there were military there. When the buses arrived, the

21 troops arrived, too. And they were there looking after the civilians and

22 those buses. When they got off, there were troops there. The troops

23 brought them there.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I know the question was already put to you

25 yesterday. In the buses, there were only civilians?

Page 12705

1 A. There were some soldiers, too, but there were also civilians.

2 When they were getting off, I could see civilians and soldiers. But

3 whether they were escorts or what, I don't know. But there were some

4 soldiers.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And then you mentioned that there were troops

6 there. These troops, were they soldiers from the JNA, merely soldiers

7 from the JNA, or also police forces?

8 A. I wouldn't know whether they were a part of the police forces or

9 whether they were active-duty soldiers. But at any rate, they were

10 military. I couldn't really say who's what.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you remember the uniforms they were wearing?

12 A. They were wearing uniforms, that is, olive-green-grey. That's the

13 colour. I don't know whether you understand what it is. But it's

14 olive-green-grey.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you please explain for us a little bit more

16 what it means for you when they are wearing olive-green-grey uniforms?

17 Because I asked were they part of the JNA.

18 A. Whether they were part of the units or not, but they wore the same

19 uniforms because that is how they looked like.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So let's continue a little bit. During the time

21 these persons were detained in this centre, were there permanent posts

22 stationed in or on the territory of this part of the Omarska previously

23 ore mine?

24 A. Yes. When those buses came and when the troops got there, there

25 were permanent guard posts.

Page 12706

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And on the area, were there, for example, nests

2 of soldiers armed with machine-guns?

3 A. They had guard posts around, around the compound, around that

4 centre. They had their guard posts there. And what do I know? Of course

5 they were armed. There were guard posts all around, naturally. All

6 around the compound. I saw them.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just coming back for a moment to the question of

8 the areas you shouldn't enter, when working later in -- on the territory

9 of Omarska ore mine, did you ever see that mines were dug out from this

10 area?

11 A. I did not see that. Perhaps it wasn't done during my shift

12 because there were other shifts. We changed. I did not see them taken

13 out or put in. We were simply warned not to go there, not to take the

14 road in that direction. We had the routes we covered, that is, going to

15 our workplaces, and that was that. And that is where we moved.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Were you at any point in time later told, "It's

17 no longer dangerous to enter this area because there are no longer such

18 risks based on mines"?

19 A. No, we weren't told anything. For as long as the people were

20 there, nobody ever said that we were free to move around there. I could

21 move freely only to my workplace and the pumps that I've already

22 described. They were about a thousand metres away, and sometimes I used a

23 vehicle to get there. Sometimes I went on foot.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, did you during the last days or weeks

25 meet Mr. Vuleta?

Page 12707

1 A. No, no.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I then ask the witness be shown S15-16-1.

3 And the other document with the marks, let's wait a minute whether we need

4 it again.

5 May I put to you, Mr. Rosic, that Mr. Vuleta when testifying here,

6 he marked the areas where armed guards were located with a P, and areas

7 where land mines, where there was a risk of land mines, with 3 lines you

8 can see at the right-hand side of the picture. Showing you this picture

9 is only for the purpose of a possible -- or for an attempt to refresh your

10 recollection.

11 So when you see these areas, especially where the police or

12 military posts marked as P were located, do you recall that at these

13 special points were armed forces in protection of especially the hangar

14 but also the administrative building?

15 A. Yes, the military were there.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: At these concrete points where you can see four

17 times the P. Correct? So it would be -- yes. Thank you, usher.

18 If you could use this pointer, please.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please, then, because we want to have

21 your own testimony, please may I ask the usher to put the other document

22 we will mark as S15-16-2 once again on the ELMO. And could you please,

23 with your red marker, mark these places where, to the best of your

24 recollection - if you don't know, tell us - to the best of your

25 recollection mark these places where you recall that armed forces were

Page 12708

1 located, with a P, please.

2 A. With a P?

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please. For the transcript, it's a

4 Cyrillic P.

5 A. Yes. Yes, they were around here. I didn't really pay much

6 attention, but they were here and here.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please, all the places you mentioned,

8 mark with a P.

9 A. And then a little further on. This whole compound here, there

10 were military here. And that's the road. So on this side of the road,

11 there were some here, too.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, with a P. You made only two -- yes,

13 okay.

14 A. That's what I saw. They were around the compound, so I've marked

15 the approximate locations. I can't be very precise, but there were

16 trenches, and they were in a circle around the military -- around the

17 building, around the hangar.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was there a special protection of the white

19 house?

20 A. I don't know exactly. I can see the white house here. There were

21 police here. The military were around the compound, but there were more

22 police inside where the detainees were. Mostly it was the police inside.

23 And the military were around the compound. They had trenches there. I

24 saw that.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was there any, because I can understand your

Page 12709

1 answer, therefore, in a more neutral way, any armed forces in the

2 neighbourhood of the so-called hangar?

3 A. Not in the vicinity of the hangar, but around the hangar there

4 were military. And inside, there were police securing the area around the

5 hangar. And all around were the military.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And was there also such a special protection for

7 the administrative building?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I know that it is - and you already mentioned

10 due to the bad quality of this picture - that you can't exactly identify

11 the area, but could you indicate approximately where the area was you were

12 warned not to enter because of mines endangering your life and limb.

13 A. This was somewhere up here, above the petrol pump. The petrol

14 pump was on this side, somewhere up there. So it was above the petrol

15 pump towards the area referred to as Gradina. They said we weren't

16 allowed to move there. I didn't look at that place. I didn't go there.

17 We weren't allowed to wander around and look around.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please mark this with a C

19 approximately where this area was, with a capital C.

20 A. [Marks]

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Yesterday, during your testimony,

22 you mentioned several times areas where you wouldn't be allowed to go to.

23 Where were these areas?

24 A. These areas were up above the petrol pump. We weren't allowed to

25 move around there, either by day or by night. And that was in the

Page 12710

1 direction of the place called Gradina.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You also mentioned this when you were asked

3 about women detained in Omarska. Where was this?

4 A. This was in the administration building.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May the witness then be shown, please, Exhibit

6 Number S15/18. This is the attempt for a reconstruction on the basis of a

7 model in another courtroom. Can you identify the area, white house,

8 administration building, hangar?

9 A. Administration building. This was it. This is the hangar.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's not a photo. It's a reproduction, an

11 attempt of a reproduction. Maybe you can't identify the buildings there.

12 Where would be the administrative building located vis-a-vis the hangar?

13 I can understand that it's difficult for you to identify this.

14 A. I don't understand this very well. This is the little white

15 house. I understand that. And this is the hangar. And this is the

16 administration building, and the women were in the administration building

17 upstairs.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Maybe it's a little bit easier when you can have

19 a look on the same model based on Exhibit Number S15-2.

20 Can you identify the three buildings, hangar, white house --

21 A. This is the white house. This is the hangar. And this is the

22 building.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be the administrative building.

24 A. Yes, the administrative building. I can't really tell.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you know at which side of this -- to start

Page 12711

1 another way around, were you allowed to enter the area between those two

2 buildings? I think it was called the pista. Correct?

3 A. That's correct, it was the pista. We weren't allowed to walk

4 around there. We weren't. We had our workplace where we were allowed to

5 move, but we were not allowed to walk around here. Only around the edges

6 if we had to pass through in order to fix something. But we weren't

7 allowed to walk around.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Were you allowed to walk around the hangar?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Were you allowed to walk around the

11 administrative building?

12 A. No, only if it was really necessary. Sometimes it was really

13 necessary because something had broken down and we had to repair it. In

14 that case, we had to go there to fix something, something to do with

15 water.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever see children in one of these

17 buildings detained?

18 A. No, I didn't see any children.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yesterday, you told us that you were aware that

20 women were detained, and they were detained separately in the

21 administrative building. Could you please with the pointer --

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please with the pointer show us where

24 in the administrative building this was.

25 A. This was upstairs in the administrative building. I don't know

Page 12712

1 how I can mark that. They were upstairs, and they had separate quarters,

2 the women did.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And where was it, where was the place where you

4 took, say, breakfast, lunch, and dinner?

5 A. They had lunch in our canteen in the administrative building.

6 That's where the detainees went. They always went in a line. They had

7 two meals a day. And that's how they went. I know that's how it was.

8 They went in a column to the administrative building where we had a

9 canteen.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you also see women going to this canteen?

11 A. I didn't see women going there. The women were held separately,

12 and I think that food was brought up to them.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Where did you, yourself, take breakfast, lunch,

14 and dinner?

15 A. Sometimes we had that, and sometimes we went up there where the

16 kitchen was in the little TAM truck. Sometimes they would bring it to us,

17 and sometimes we would go there for lunch. It was about 2 kilometres away

18 in Omarska, the pit where we were.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever see -- you mentioned just a moment

20 ago the little TAM truck. Apparently it was called Tamici, correct?

21 A. Tamic, yes, we had a Tamic.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you see people bringing meal to the canteen

23 with this Tamici?

24 A. Yes, sometimes they brought it in the Tamic.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yesterday you mentioned that you saw several

Page 12713

1 times corpses on the territory of the Omarska ore mine. How were they

2 brought --

3 A. On one occasion only, a few corpses.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't want to confuse you, but wasn't it

5 yesterday that you mentioned it once in connection with the events

6 connected to Mr. Kvocka, and then later - I just try to find the exact

7 page number and I come back to this. But how was it that the corpses, be

8 it now one or more or several times, were transported away? Did you see

9 this?

10 A. I didn't see this.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's a long time ago, but sometimes we recall

12 incidents because of their special importance. Did you ever see

13 delegations arriving in Omarska?

14 A. Yes, they did arrive.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you tell us which kind of delegations this

16 was?

17 A. I don't know what kind of delegations they were, but I know they

18 came. They had a small bus of their own, and they came.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you recall when this was, in summer in 1992,

20 in autumn, or in spring -- not in spring, of course. In summer 1992,

21 immediately after the first buses arrived, or more close to that period

22 when this area was no longer used as a Detention Centre?

23 A. When the area was used as a Detention Centre, that's when they

24 came. Later on, I didn't see any delegations arriving.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was there one delegation or were there several

Page 12714

1 delegations?

2 A. I don't know. There were some, but I don't know how many. I know

3 that they used to come, but I don't know who came or why.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You didn't know any of these persons arriving

5 with the bus, correct, or...?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever see high-ranking persons, be it

8 military personnel or civilian persons of political importance, arriving

9 in or being on this territory of the Omarska ore mine in 1992?

10 A. No, I did not see that. Those very important persons, whoever

11 came, I did not see them. Because I couldn't really keep up with it. I

12 had accommodation of my own, and I had my job to do. So I wasn't there on

13 those days because the pumps I maintained are far away. And I had to go

14 there. I had no time to watch who's coming, who's going, and things of

15 that sort.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Final question: Did your son socialise with

17 Dr. Stakic?

18 A. Why, yes, they were practically school fellows, peers. So yes,

19 they socialised. They were good colleagues.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know whether or not your son had contact

21 with Dr. Stakic in this period of time, say, from May 1992 to September

22 1992?

23 A. No, not much, because he was absent. He was also on the front. He

24 was with the police in Banja Luka, so he was absent. He was away. And he

25 also went to the front.

Page 12715

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. I personally have no further

2 questions.

3 Judge Vassylenko, please.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour, please.

5 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Rosic, can you tell us how many buildings

6 belonging to Omarska mine served as camp facilities?

7 A. As camp facilities, well, they were almost all full, and there

8 were also some on the pista. It was summer. It was hot. And so they

9 were also between the buildings on the pista.

10 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: What were these buildings used for before the

11 conflict?

12 A. Those -- before the conflict, those buildings housed workshops,

13 depots for dump trucks, for caterpillars. We had some American machinery,

14 and they were kept inside. And then, when it was necessary to put people

15 in there, those machines were taken out of the hangar. So it was for

16 machines there. And so there were people there.

17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: How many buses arrived at the Omarska mine, and

18 how many detainees were brought in in the first day when you saw this?

19 A. I wouldn't be able to give you the number. There were a number of

20 buses, over 20. On the average, on the average, must have been a

21 thousand -- over a thousand people. Must have been something like that.

22 I've got a sore throat.

23 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Do you think, was it possible to detain so many

24 people in these buildings without preparing them to serve as detention

25 facilities?

Page 12716

1 A. They used them. They had to be used. They were not envisaged.

2 But since they had to be used, they were used for it. The conditions were

3 not good, but whatever you had, you had to put somewhere those people.

4 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you. I have no further questions.

5 A. Thank you, too.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Argibay, please.

7 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Good afternoon, Mr. Rosic. You told us yesterday

8 that you were made to use an armband, a white armband, to distinguish the

9 workers at the Omarska mine and the detainees. Correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Who told you to put on that armband?

12 A. Our superiors said that we had to have some markings because we

13 were moving about there, so that the military could know who we were,

14 because there were civilians there, too, so that they wouldn't confuse us

15 with others. Because we moved about, we came and went, and we had to have

16 something. So we were ordered to do that.

17 JUDGE ARGIBAY: I understand that. Thank you. Was one of your

18 superiors Mr. Mirko Babic?

19 A. Yes, he was.

20 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Was he who told you to use the armband?

21 A. That's right.

22 JUDGE ARGIBAY: He was the one who was in charge in Omarska mine

23 ore buildings?

24 A. Yes, he was.

25 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Do you know how the military told them they were

Page 12717

1 going to use the facilities?

2 A. Oh, that, I don't know.

3 JUDGE ARGIBAY: But he told you about the armband the first day

4 the detainees were there?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. Then yesterday, you told us, and for the

7 parties and ourselves, it was page 54, line 10 more or less. My LiveNotes

8 were down, so I'm not very sure. But you told us that you had the same

9 food as the detainees. Can you just tell us what kind of food you got.

10 A. Well, you can't say it was really good. It wasn't that good. But

11 we who worked there, we also bought something extra or brought from home

12 so that it was enough. But it wasn't really anything to write home about.

13 There was a general crisis with food and all that, there was general

14 crisis. The food wasn't good.

15 JUDGE ARGIBAY: I didn't ask you about the goodness or not. Can

16 you tell me, for instance, what you get any day for lunch?

17 A. Well, I don't know if that is how it was. I can't really know it,

18 whether people had the same food for dinner as they had for lunch. Is

19 that what you're asking me? I don't quite understand.

20 JUDGE ARGIBAY: No. I want to know if you were given soup or a

21 stew or any other thing, fruit, vegetables. I don't know. Just tell me

22 what you were given one day or the others.

23 A. Yes, that's how it was. There would be soup at times, and then it

24 would be beans. Do you know what that is? Well, at times, there would be

25 beans. And it wasn't much of a food, but one had to eat. It wasn't

Page 12718

1 really of a particular -- particularly good. The food was rather bad, not

2 good.

3 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay, thank you. I have no more questions.

4 A. Thank you, too.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just as a follow up, in fact, on yesterday's

6 LiveNote, page 54, line 10, you stated: "Yes, yes, we had the same food."

7 May I ask you following the other questions of today, where you yourself

8 took the meal and where the detainees got the meal, how can you know you

9 got the same food as the detainees?

10 A. We were getting the same food because there was only one kitchen.

11 There was only one kitchen preparing food for everybody except that we had

12 more. Sometimes from the same kitchen, sometimes the Tamic would bring

13 food for us, or the same delivery van would take it to Omarska. It was

14 some kilometres away where the kitchen was. So we ate the same food. It

15 was the same kitchen for everybody. They prepared 5, 6, a thousand meals

16 for everybody. And that is what we used. We were few, we were only 5 or

17 6; 2, 3 per shift. That's how many we were. So how could anyone prepare

18 food for us separately?

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Thank you for this, your conclusion. And

20 I have to apologise that I didn't find immediately beforehand when asking

21 you the question on corpses in the Detention Centre. On page 54 of

22 today's transcript, you were asked about the events involving Mr. Kvocka.

23 And then on page 55, related to this, line 1, you answered: "There were

24 dead and wounded. I could see that. They took the wounded for

25 treatment. Kvocka called in an ambulance. So he sent the wounded people

Page 12719

1 off to hospital. That's what I know about it."

2 Question by Mr. Koumjian: "At other occasions, did you have the

3 unfortunate opportunity to view dead corpses or bodies in or around the

4 iron ore mine in the spring and summer 1992?" And your answer was: "Yes,

5 yes, I did see a few corpses."

6 Could you please try to be a little bit more concrete on this

7 question. How many corpses or dead bodies did you see and where did you

8 see them?

9 A. I saw them over there, somewhere above the white house where

10 people were lying down. Not many, two, three, men. And I was passing by

11 going towards the pump, and that is how I saw them. And I got to the

12 pump. That is how I saw those couple of people. And I did not see any

13 more people there, and somebody must have picked them up because I did not

14 see them again. That is what I saw.

15 After that, I did not see it except during that incident with

16 Kvocka, when there were a couple of people dead and some wounded. And

17 Kvocka called the ambulance and took people immediately for treatment.

18 And that was that. And there were a couple of dead. Had Kvocka not

19 stopped it, there would have been more. And that is how it all ended.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Coming back to these dead bodies you saw in the

21 neighbourhood of the white house, did you discuss with some of your

22 colleagues the reasons why there were these dead bodies?

23 A. I'm not really aware of that, why that was. But some people said

24 they had tried to escape, and so fire was opened on them. That's

25 something that I heard. But I didn't really know it for a fact. Those

Page 12720

1 people who indeed tried to escape, and that was why fire was opened on

2 them.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have no further questions. It is now the time

4 for the Defence, re-examination, please.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Re-examined by Mr. Ostojic:

7 Q. Once again, good afternoon, Mr. Rosic. I have several questions

8 I'd like to clarify if I may. First of all, the Honourable Judge Argibay

9 asked you on page 30, lines 21 through 22 today with respect to a

10 gentleman by the name of Mirko Babic. Can you just tell us, when the

11 Court asked you whether Mirko Babic was in charge of the iron ore mine at

12 Omarska, is it true, sir, that Mirko Babic was your superior and only the

13 superior of those people who had previously worked at iron ore mine at

14 Rudnik or Omarska. Correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mirko Babic was not at any time and specifically was not during

17 the spring and summer of 1992 in charge of either the police or the

18 military at the iron ore mine at Rudnik or Omarska. Correct?

19 A. Yes, it is correct. He wasn't.

20 Q. I just want to clarify it. Sir, you had a picture that was shared

21 or shown to you on the ELMO by the Honourable President Judge Schomburg

22 earlier this afternoon. Just so that I can understand, I'm not going to

23 ask you to compare the testimony, but was the initial -- when you examined

24 the picture, the initial inside perimeter of the iron ore mine, was that

25 in essence secured by the police and the outer perimeter secured by the

Page 12721

1 military?

2 A. That's exactly how it was.

3 Q. Just so that I have a clear record, you marked for military on

4 that chart that you have with the Cyrillic letter P. Correct?

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Perhaps with the Court's permission, we can just

6 have that document --

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be S15-16-2. And to the best of my

8 recollection, the witness was asked to mark those places where armed

9 forces, without any distinction between police and military was made. But

10 please, for a better definition, please continue.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Just so the record is clear, I just would like to

12 reserve my right to discuss that with --

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: So as not to confuse the witness.

15 Q. Sir, looking at this exhibit that you have in front of you, you

16 marked the areas with the -- and you've marked several places on this

17 exhibit as I note. But with the Cyrillic P, you've marked areas on this

18 exhibit. Correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correctly marked around it. It was the military, of

20 course.

21 Q. Fine. Where was the police, sir, in that diagram during the

22 spring and summer of 1992 when the detainees were in the iron ore mine at

23 Omarska?

24 A. Around the hangar, around the mine. Around the prisoners. That's

25 where they were. The police.

Page 12722

1 Q. Were they on the inside of where the military was, or on the

2 outside of the military? How about I do it this way: Let me try it this

3 way, and I might expedite it. With the Court's permission, can you mark,

4 if I may, Your Honour --

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course, admittedly I myself didn't understand

6 your question. So it would be helpful if we could mark the police, if you

7 agree, with an S.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: As long as the record so reflects, Your Honour.

9 That would be fine.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So please continue. And maybe it's of

11 assistance if the witness immediately would be so kind and mark those

12 places where the police was located with an S.


14 Q. Mr. Rosic, yes, the usher will hand you a pen, and if you would be

15 kind enough to mark with a letter S -- the pen to your right which is red.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, if you could indicate the areas where to

17 the best of your recollection police was stationed, with an S always.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Around the hangar building, where

19 the prisoners were. That's where the police was. Right next to the

20 hangar building, around it. And then around them were the army troops.

21 I've already said it. I can explain it like that, but I can also mark

22 it. They were around the building. The police were around the building.

23 And they were where I've already marked, the military were around them.

24 That is where they had trenches, and they were in the trenches

25 practically. That's how I saw them. And the police was inside -- I mean,

Page 12723

1 within the camp around the detainees. They escorted them to lunch and

2 back because they always walked a line to lunch and back. Of course, in

3 rounds because there were too many of them. So one group goes and comes

4 back, and then another group goes and comes back. And it was by and large

5 the police who looked after that.


7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rosic. Just if you can quickly write with the

8 letter S the approximate areas where you recall the police were during the

9 spring and summer at the iron ore mine, spring and summer of 1992

10 obviously.

11 A. [Marks]

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the transcript once again, it's marked with

13 a Cyrillic S.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] S Cyrillic, that's where the police

15 was. And here was the army. That was quite clear. No problem

16 whatsoever. I saw them. I saw this area. I know it by heart. And what

17 I saw I'm saying. But I can't really say exactly because I'm not a

18 designer. I couldn't design this building. I'm not qualified for that.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's already an excellent painting. Only that

20 the transcript is clear, you, in addition, marked with a Cyrillic C, which

21 on my screen could read as an O, police in front of the administrative

22 building. Correct?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Mr. Ostojic, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how it is.

Page 12724


2 Q. Mr. Rosic, if you may, just follow the picture with me. You see

3 the large building to the centre of the picture in front of you. That's

4 the hangar. To the left is the administrative building, correct? And is

5 it fair to say to the left of the administrative building is where the

6 gate and entrance is to the iron ore mine as it existed in the spring and

7 summer of 1992?

8 A. Yeah, yeah, that's quite true.

9 Q. Just several questions if I may: Do you recall, sir, on the first

10 day that the detainees were brought to the iron ore mine whether or not

11 the military had a confrontation and a discussion with personnel from the

12 iron ore mine as to whether or not they can gain access to the iron ore

13 mine?

14 A. I didn't see that, nor did I ask anyone. I didn't ask anyone.

15 The military, they just got there without anyone ordering them to that.

16 They never asked us. They were not under us anyway. They did what had to

17 do. The army came, put people there and that's it.

18 Q. Thank you. Sir prior to the conflict in the area in the spring

19 and summer of 1992, is it true that the iron ore mine had its own security

20 guards and personnel to protect it from outsiders coming into the iron ore

21 mine who were stationed at the gate?

22 A. That is exactly how it was. We called them doormen. We called

23 them janitors or doormen. They were -- they had their workplaces in

24 different areas. Yes, but they were guarding, but they were civilians.

25 Q. Did those doormen or these janitors who were at the gate, the

Page 12725

1 entrance, did you hear from anyone, sir, at any time that these doormen

2 resisted the military when they first came and attempted to gain access in

3 the iron ore mine in the spring and summer of 1992 when they brought the

4 detainees?

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think the question has been asked

6 and answered.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm afraid that's true. It's already answered.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: I don't want to debate it right now, Judge, but I

9 think we've just had a little bit of a communication problem with the

10 witness in this regard. But in terms of exactly identifying them as

11 either doormen or guards, and the witness clearly stating it wasn't people

12 within. But certainly they were the doormen and the janitors who were at

13 the gate. But to the extent that it's --

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we have all understood.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough, Your Honour.

16 Q. Sir - thank you, Mr. Rosic - with respect to the detainees that

17 were brought to the iron ore mine, you mentioned that some were in

18 military clothes and some were in civilian clothes. Correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. The detainees that were brought in the iron ore mine, did they

21 have the military uniform of the Territorial Defence to the extent that

22 you know?

23 A. I don't really know. I think they were the olive-green-grey, the

24 SMB uniforms, but I didn't really see if it was the Territorial Defence.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You used an abbreviation, SMB. Only that the

Page 12726

1 transcript is clear, could you please tell us what it stands for, SMB.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: Is that a question for me, Your Honour?

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No, for the witness. Because the witness used

4 an abbreviation, and therefore we need the exact word. Could you please

5 be so kind, Mr. Rosic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do I know? I wrote it just

7 formally, just a dash, so that one can follow more or less. But I didn't

8 really follow it very carefully.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Maybe you misunderstood me. You used yourself

10 the abbreviation SMB. And I wanted to ask you, what is the meaning of

11 SMB, this abbreviation? What does it stand for?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] SMB is the acronym. It stands for a

13 colour which is dark green or how shall I call it, it is short for it.

14 The so-called SMB uniform. I don't really know how to put it. I don't

15 quite understand it. But it was dark green. A bit dark. But that is

16 what we called it, SMB. I see you don't understand, but as a matter of

17 fact, I don't understand it either. But I just thought I'd say it to

18 help. But it's very difficult to really make up one's mind how it all

19 was.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So we are in full agreement, but please, let us

21 know who normally wore these SMB uniforms?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The army did.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a military uniform. It was

25 the military who wore that uniform.

Page 12727

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Thank you for this clarification.

2 Mr. Ostojic, please.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: Two more questions, please.


5 MR. OSTOJIC: I know that the time is running late.

6 Q. Sir, do you know that the Territorial Defence also wore those

7 uniforms? Do you know that?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Sir, were you allowed -- were you allowed or permitted to go into

10 the actual offices in the buildings where the detainees were being held?

11 A. No, we weren't allowed to go in there.

12 Q. Just a couple more questions, and I appreciate your patience. Can

13 you just describe for us looking at the exhibit that's on the ELMO, how

14 far away is the gate and the entrance to the administrative building

15 that's depicted on this picture? How far away is it on the left-hand

16 side?

17 A. It's maybe some 30 metres away. I don't know that it's more.

18 About 30 metres. I didn't measure it, but I think that's the distance to

19 the main gate.

20 Q. How far away were these janitors or men who were at the gate, the

21 men who were allowing people to come into the gate prior to the conflict

22 in 1992? How far away were they from the actual administrative building

23 and the hangar as depicted in the picture?

24 A. Well, that depends. They weren't all at a certain distance. They

25 were at the gate. There were several of these men around the compound.

Page 12728

1 Some were closer, and some were further away. They weren't all the same

2 distance from the administration building. Wherever there was a need for

3 a doorman, that's where he was. There were several places for them.

4 Q. Now, we're just having trouble understanding this, and I know it's

5 late and it's my fault because I've rushed the questions. Where, sir, is

6 the separation between the actual premises of the iron ore mine or as you

7 call it separacija from the iron ore mine and to where the outside roads

8 would lead, how far away is that, the outside perimeter, if you will?

9 A. The separacija was about 2 kilometres away, 2.000 metres. I knew

10 that was the distance because there was water there to wash the iron ore.

11 Q. By that separacija that you have just mentioned 2 kilometres away,

12 is that the area where these protests as you've described them occurred

13 from the civilians who wanted to complain about the military utilising the

14 iron ore mine as a detention facility in the spring and summer of 1992?

15 A. People did protest up there at the gate. There was a gate at the

16 separacija. And people protested there objecting to these people being

17 brought to Omarska because we didn't find this acceptable. And people saw

18 that this would not be a good thing bringing people in. But the military

19 wouldn't listen. They forced their way in. They did what they wanted to

20 do. They set up their military command there, and civilians were not

21 asked anything. They didn't ask the doormen anything. They came in, and

22 then there was nothing to be done about it.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. Rosic. Thank you for the extra

24 time. I appreciate it.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. And I have a

Page 12729

1 request at the end, if I may.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: At this point, it would for the Prosecution if

3 there are any questions.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. There are a number. I don't

5 know whether I will finish before 5.00, I can certainly try.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't want to exert any pressure, and if we

7 can't to conclude the witness' testimony today, I would to give the

8 Defence the chance. They were in a hurry apparently to proceed with their

9 line of questions, if necessary. Unfortunately --

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: When I say a number, I mean five. But it depends

11 if I get quick answers.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's try. Let's try, please.

13 Further cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

14 Q. Mr. Rosic, these people you mentioned earlier at the beginning of

15 your testimony today that they were local people who were objecting to

16 these 20 buses coming to the camp, were you talking about local residents

17 from Omarska?

18 A. Yes, yes, the local residents. The residents of Omarska. It was

19 them, no one else, because it was their area, and they found this

20 objectionable.

21 Q. You also drew on a diagram, Exhibit 15-16-2, and you marked with a

22 letter B the place where you said that you worked. Is it correct that you

23 worked in the electrical workshop?

24 A. That's correct. We were there. That's where our designated place

25 was. And we had the best access there, and nobody hindered us in any

Page 12730

1 way --

2 Q. Pause there, please. Isn't the electrical workshop on the ground

3 floor of the hangar building? As you enter the hangar building, you turn

4 right, and it's in the corner of the ground floor of the hangar building.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And on the diagram this afternoon, the B you drew was outside

7 towards the back right-hand corner of the hangar building. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. It wasn't exactly in the corner, but it was close to the corner,

10 quite close to the corner. But I couldn't mark it any more clearly. It

11 was towards the end of the building.

12 Q. So if you're standing at the white house looking towards the

13 hangar building, the electrical workshop is on your right-hand side?

14 A. Yes, but quite far away, quite far away. Far away from the white

15 house.

16 Q. Yes, but on the ground floor inside the hangar building.

17 A. Yes, the ground floor.

18 Q. You mentioned a moment ago on page 27 that you used to visit the

19 pumps and that they were a certain distance away from the camp. Who were

20 you visiting the pumps with?

21 A. I went to the pumps, and there was always someone going with me.

22 And sometimes they would drive me there in the Tamic, in the little

23 truck. And when they could, they would drive me there in the Tamic truck

24 or I would --

25 Q. Just pause there. Who were the names of the people that you went

Page 12731

1 to the water pumps with?

2 A. Their names were -- there was a Stakic driving the truck. We

3 called him Mico, Milorad or whatever. We called him Mico.

4 Q. And the names of anyone else that you went with?

5 A. Oh, yes, yes. There was one called Bjelobrk. And then there was

6 another driver, a man called Mrdja. They changed shifts as well, you

7 know.

8 Q. Did you also visit the pumps with Mr. Vuleta?

9 A. No, because I was in a different shift. There was another one

10 with me. Vuleta and I worked different shifts.

11 Q. You mentioned that you were asked whether you saw any high-ranking

12 delegations, and you said that you knew that they used to come but you

13 didn't see --

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Let me just object to the form of the question

15 because I think it mischaracterises it. I don't think the Court said that

16 it was high-ranking and that's one of the issues we wanted to raise with

17 the Court by the interpretation of the word "delegation." I don't believe

18 the court ever mentioned that it was a high-ranking delegation. The

19 witness if given time would explain or I believe would explain something

20 different. But that's my objection to the form of the question.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have to ask, do you have any further

22 questions?

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, just two, Your Honour.

24 Q. Sir, do you ever recall anyone -- were you ever at the camp when a

25 delegation came from Banja Luka in mid-July 1992?

Page 12732

1 A. No, I wasn't there then.

2 Q. You also mentioned on page 26 today that the detainees received

3 one meal a day, and then on page 36, you said that the police took them to

4 lunch and back. Is it correct that the detainees only received one meal a

5 day?

6 A. Two meals. I didn't say that. They got only two meals a day.

7 They didn't get one. That's wrong. They were given two meals a day, but

8 not more than two.

9 Q. To your knowledge?

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would include breakfast? Yes or no.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would get breakfast and

12 supper. A rather late breakfast and supper. That's how it was. Two

13 times a day.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. I think we understood.


16 Q. You said that there was around 6.000 meals prepared at the

17 separacija.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Isn't it true that detainees went in groups of approximately 30

20 people to lunch?

21 A. Yes, they were taken in groups because they couldn't go all at

22 once. So one group would go, and then another. And they would take them

23 there in a column. I saw that.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I have no further questions. But

25 just for the record it, may be helpful to have -- Your Honour mentioned

Page 12733

1 the Cyrillic C, which looked like an O. And perhaps we can have on the

2 record that the Cyrillic P looks like an N on Exhibit S15-16-2.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we know all what is the meaning of this.

4 Any additions in return?

5 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour. Thank you.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No further questions.

7 Then please understand, Mr. Rosic, we are in a hurry. In one

8 minute, we have a plenary of the Judges, and we have to be there

9 immediately. I have to thank you for your testimony yesterday and today.

10 And it really assisted us in some further -- getting some further

11 knowledge out of what happened in 1992 at the place where you worked, all

12 these deplorable incidents, and we hope that the future of your country

13 will be a better one than it was in 1992 and in the following period.

14 Thank you very much for coming.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's hope so. Thank you, too. I

16 have a request, Your Honour. Thank you. I have a request, Your Honour,

17 if possible.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If it's a very brief one.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is brief. I wish to visit

20 Mr. Stakic, if that is possible, because he comes from my area, and I know

21 him. I would like to visit him because I will see his parents when I go

22 home, and they will ask me whether I saw their son. If you agree, that's

23 what I want to ask. May I visit him?

24 MR. OSTOJIC: We'll explain it to the witness, Your Honour. We

25 apologise. We'll explain it to the witness.

Page 12734

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's for the Defence counsel to make the

2 necessary arrangements. Thank you, this concludes today's session. The

3 trial stays adjourned until tomorrow, 2.15. There is no 65 ter (i)

4 meeting tomorrow in the morning. Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

7 at 5.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

8 the 28th day of February, 2003,

9 at 2.15 p.m.