1 Wednesday, 26 May 2004
2 [Motion Hearing]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 3.01 p.m.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration. You've
8 already made the declaration? You remain subject to the declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 MS. PACK: Your Honour, may I make a comment just before
12 Dr. Tarabar begins his testimony. Just to say that my understanding of
13 Dr. Tarabar's testimony today had been that he was to cover just his
14 examination of -- his recent examination of Mr. Stanisic of last week or
15 whenever it was, rather than going back into the matters that have been
16 dealt with fully over, I think it was three hours or so of testimony on
17 the last occasion. I only raise that as a concern because I just received
18 a bundle of documentation which looks like it's more of an answer to what
19 Dr. van den Boomgaard said in his testimony yesterday. And I'm concerned
20 that we then go back and recover those matters which have been covered
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Generally, I think what you say is correct. But
23 I think it is inevitable that he will quite properly, I think, deal with
24 some of the matters that were raised yesterday. But I think in principle,
25 I mean, his purpose is not to provide an answer to the testimony given
2 MS. PACK: I simply make the point on a question of timing because
3 he has testified for a long on time on matters which it would be
4 unfortunate if they were just repeated in a different way today.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well counsel is aware of the time limit
6 that has been set.
7 Yes, Mr. Knoops.
8 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Dr. Tarabar.
10 Sorry, you were correct. We will request to go to private
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session, yes.
13 [Private session]
12 Pages 324 to 407 – redacted – private session.
4 [Open session]
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, hopefully in the interests of speeding
6 things up, I will be using the Sanction system to put a few excerpts of
7 some relevant jurisprudence and some of the exhibits.
8 Your Honours, over the course of these several days we have
9 learned a great deal about Mr. Stanisic's physical and mental condition.
10 What has emerged, what is the Prosecution's primary point to make here
11 this afternoon is that provisional release is not and cannot be an
12 appropriate response to the concerns raised as to Mr. Stanisic's medical
13 and physical condition. The appropriate response is to ensure that
14 Mr. Stanisic while in the custody of the United Nations receives proper
15 and appropriate medical and any other care that he requires.
16 At this juncture, Mr. Stanisic is presumed innocent before this
17 Tribunal, and is entitled to the care that any of us would expect if in a
18 similar situation. I will set out the Prosecution case for why
19 provisional release is not appropriate in this case, but at the outset, I
20 will say that the Prosecution will not oppose any suggestions or
21 recommendations or orders the Court may direct with respect to improved
22 healthcare for Mr. Stanisic. I would first propose to deal with the
23 matter that I think is probably best dealt with in closed session. So I
24 ask that we go into that.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
1 [Private session]
12 Pages 410 to 420 – redacted – private session.
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just picking up where from I left off in
9 private session just to reiterate, there is no functioning national
10 council on cooperation, something that should weigh heavily in the
11 Chamber's assessment of the reliability of any guarantees by Serbia and
12 Montenegro. With respect to the ability to have Mr. Stanisic rearrested
13 in the event he should refuse to return voluntarily, I made this argument
14 with Mr. Simatovic. I reiterate it again with even greater force. This
15 would be requiring the people who were his subordinates, or some of the
16 people who were his subordinates to go out and arrest him. I think it is
17 reasonable to assume that many of those people are still supporters of
18 his, probably think that he should not be facing an indictment. And it
19 would be a rather difficult for them to go and forcibly arrest him and
20 return him to The Hague, if that should be required.
21 Your Honour, with respect to the cooperation, and again I am
22 prepared to lay it out all for the Chamber, but I would ask the Chamber to
23 read Dr. Offermans' report. As to what Mr. Stanisic says with respect to
24 information that he does have. None of it was -- none of that information
25 was given to the investigators who spent days and days speaking with
1 Mr. Stanisic. Before I do that, Your Honour, could I just point one
2 thing, one of the things that the Sainovic Chamber said, the statements of
3 the accused are important. I would draw the Chamber's attention to
4 exhibit 9 on the issue of voluntariness. It's a public -- it's a Defence
5 exhibit. It's a media report of -- reporting Mr. Stanisic to have said
6 that the former head of state of security requests an urgent transfer to
7 the Detention Unit in The Hague Tribunal because his request for post
8 operative convalescence was rejected. One of the reasons, if he was here
9 voluntarily at all, was because it was his belief that if he was not
10 getting proper care in Serbia and Montenegro, he would receive better care
12 With respect to cooperation, I would point out a number of
13 statements quoted by Dr. Offermans or summarising statements made by
14 Mr. Stanisic. Mr. Stanisic talks about his relationship to Mr. Milosevic,
15 having made Mr. Milosevic the most informed leader in the Balkans, of how
16 having taken steps to make sure he had information about Kosovo, Bosnia,
17 Croatia. He also made statements to Dr. Offermans that, and I'm quoting,
18 he was able to resist, now I'm quoting, "the pressure of Milosevic and
19 others for much more violent action for so long." Again, a statement that
20 is very relevant to the proceedings before this Tribunal, something which
21 was not given to the investigators, but was told to the psychiatrist. I
22 put that forward, Your Honour, as evidence that what we have here is
23 evidence of not only a failure to cooperate, but an intentional decision
24 to withhold information and not cooperate with the investigators who ask
25 questions on these matters.
1 The last thing, Your Honour, that I would ask you to consider is
2 one of the considerations is the safety and the security of witnesses and
3 how they will be affected. One of the things that Mr. Stanisic said to
4 Dr. Offermans was the following: Mr. Stanisic states that although he had
5 no political power left any longer, he still had vital information at his
6 disposal due to his long years of expertise as head of the intelligence
7 service. One of the most fundamental bits of information an intelligence
8 service has is where people are. I submit that he still has the capacity
9 to locate witnesses and, if he so desires, to intimidate witnesses. So
10 that is I believe a relevant consideration for the Chamber in assessing
11 the effect and impact it would have on the victims of this -- the
12 witnesses that will testify at his trial.
13 Finally, Your Honour, I will return to my original argument:
14 Provisional release is not appropriate remedy to -- for what -- the
15 concerns raised by the Defence. It is appropriate for the Chamber to
16 ensure that Mr. Stanisic receives proper treatment, maybe it requires more
17 regular blood tests. Maybe it requires more daily observations of his
18 (Redacted) I'd ask that maybe that be redacted since that handled in private
20 Maybe it required that Dr. Tarabar have some input into his
21 treatment, that he be consulted, that he be furnished with copies of
22 relevant medical records. But I submit, Your Honour, that that is the
23 proper remedy for what is brought before the Chamber, not provisional
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
1 Mr. Knoops, how long will you be?
2 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, I will speak five minutes, and if you
3 would allow the rest of the time reserved for me to allow the defendant to
4 address Your Honourable Trial Chamber for a few minutes, just two minutes.
5 So I will go down on my presentation.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes. Yes.
7 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, we are grateful for the time the Trial
8 Chamber grants the Defence, and we are aware that did -- took some extra
9 time with the opening arguments. So I will be quite brief.
10 Your Honours --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead. Please go ahead.
12 MR. KNOOPS: We provided your Trial Chamber today with a list of
13 exhibits, index, comprising 44 exhibits. 44 exhibits, lots of them are
14 not contested by the Prosecution. And we conclude based on these 44
15 exhibits, first of all, there is reason to hold the presumption of
16 innocence in the case of Mr. Stanisic. Secondly, there is an overwhelming
17 evidence that he will respect the rulings and the orders of your Court.
18 And there is no risk that he will flee whatsoever or influence witnesses.
19 And thirdly, there is overwhelming evidence, we believe, based on these
20 exhibits, that he showed quite a cooperative attitude whilst being
21 seriously ill. And fourth, there is evidence of a deterioration of his
22 health situation, and that the principle of effective participation may be
23 endangered, especially when you consider (Redacted)
24 (Redacted) observation.
25 My learned colleague --
1 MR. GROOME: I just might remind my learned colleague. We are in
2 public session, if you realise that.
3 JUDGE KWON: We are now in public session.
4 MR. KNOOPS: I would request the Court to go into private session.
5 JUDGE KWON: Private session.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session, yes.
7 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you.
8 [Private session]
12 Pages 426 to 429 – redacted – private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE ACCUSED: [No microphone].
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thank you for accepting to review
21 my motion for provisional release until the beginning of my trial. It was
22 about this time exactly nine years ago after the NATO bombing of Bosnian
23 Serb positions, because of the siege of Sarajevo, the Army of Republika
24 Srpska reacted in an utterly unexpected and irrational way. She took as
25 hostages and detained 400 Blue Helmets, mostly from the French, British,
1 and Canadian units. They tied their hands and used them as a human
2 shield, a human shield from possible air attacks.
3 The whole world was aghast at this. And the lives of those
4 members, the peacekeeping mission, were at risk, hanging by a thread. The
5 special forces of those three countries were ready to release them by
6 force. We can only guess at what would have happened had they gone into
7 action and how many lives would have been lost.
8 Serbia, too, was surprised and shocked by these events. There
9 were very few people who believed, although it was my impression, that we
10 on our part could have done something to save the lives of those people.
11 Everyone knew that the state relations with Republika Srpska had been at
12 the lowest level ever since the beginning of the Yugoslav crisis.
13 I would use this opportunity to remind you that a year earlier,
14 Serbia had imposed rigorous sanctions on Republika Srpska due to the
15 refusal of their leadership to accept the peace plan offered by the
16 contact group.
17 Your Honours, I had the courage in that dramatic situation to
18 accept the role of a mediator and special envoy for negotiations with the
19 leadership of Republika Srpska. Having been authorised by the state
20 leadership of the Republic of Serbia, I began a difficult peace mission,
21 and I was on my way to Bosnia. When I came there, I found the chaos of
22 war. The political and military leaders of Republika Srpska were
23 quarrelling. There were serious indications that the situation would
24 continue to deteriorate. The intention was to unite Republika Srpska and
25 the Republic of Serbian Krajina. I also found highly positioned
1 representatives and leaders of other countries there, Ministers of Foreign
2 Affairs, Defence Ministers, who were also trying to put an end to this
3 crisis. Beyond the narrowest possible circle of top state leaders, I have
4 never spoken about the course of the negotiations outside this circle, nor
5 did I speak of the conditions under which the leaders of Republika Srpska
6 agreed to finally release the hostages. If you request me to do so, I
7 will be glad to oblige.
8 However, following 15 days of utter confusion and uncertainty, as
9 well as a number of complications, I finally obtained approval from the
10 leadership of Republika Srpska to have the Blue Helmets released. There
11 was a press conference that was organised at Pale where I addressed the
12 world public, saying that I brought the negotiations to a successful
13 conclusion and that pursuant to an agreement that had been reached, I
14 assumed responsibility for the lives of 388 members of the United Nations
15 and I will make sure they were safe out of Bosnia. And that's precisely
16 what I did. Having made an enormous effort and having put myself at risk
17 a number of times, I had to collect these people literally from different
18 locations throughout Republika Srpska and take care of the wounded and
19 sick along the way. That's how I brought the mission to a peaceful port.
20 I used convoys on several occasions to transport these people into
21 Serbia where I handed them over to the UN commander or the representatives
22 of their respective governments. Your Honours, not a single life was lost
23 along the way. Despite threats by extremist groups and extremist
24 individuals who said that they would stop me in my mission, Your Honours,
25 I succeeded in preserving the dignity of every single soldier and officer
1 of the Blue Helmets. Their weapons were returned to them; all of their
2 equipment and clothes. They were treated in a fair and humane way. All
3 of this took 30 days. For me and my colleagues, that seemed like an
5 I find myself compelled to speak about this issue, and I ask to be
6 given a chance to speak about this. Thank you for offering me this
7 opportunity. This is but one example of the confusing historic,
8 political, and military circumstances under which I worked as chief of a
9 very small intelligence body. Personally, I was far from the political
10 bodies. I was far from unlawful acts, and I have always been an enemy of
11 all forms of extremism. I'm saying this because it is my deep conviction
12 that in addition to my own family, each and every one of these hundreds of
13 people and their next of kin would warmly welcome your decision to
14 provisionally release me and allow me to go home until my trial begins.
15 All of the other people whom I have helped in this chaos of war, I
16 believe, share these convictions and these hopes.
17 If that proves to be the case, Your Honours, I give you my word of
18 honour that I will act in a fair and honest way with the utmost respect
19 for this Court, that I will prepare my Defence, that I will undergo
20 intensive treatment, and I will appear for trial whenever you decide that
21 I should. Thank you very much, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Stanisic.
23 May we deal very quickly now with the exhibits. And I propose to
24 deal with it in this way: And depending on the kind of answers I get, I
25 think we'll then decide whether we have to come back tomorrow. We have
1 the list of Defence exhibits. I wanted to ask the Prosecutor whether he
2 had any objections to any of them.
3 MR. GROOME: A number of those exhibits just arrived today,
4 Your Honour. Can I propose that in writing we list our objections to
5 whatever exhibits and have that filed by tomorrow. This would give us an
6 opportunity overnight to review the exhibits and handle it in a very
7 expeditious way.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what you're proposing is that the parties file
9 their responses to the exhibits --
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, sorry, I haven't seen the list. I
11 learned from my colleagues that they haven't even seen the list. So we
12 haven't even seen the list of the exhibits yet.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me consult about that as a way out.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The parties will file their reactions to
16 the other party's list. And the Chamber will issue an order as to those
17 exhibits that have been admitted. And that should be done by tomorrow.
18 Mr. Groome.
19 JUDGE KWON: Anything to add in relation to the Status
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, all of what I said with respect to
22 Mr. Simatovic is the same as here. I just ask that that be incorporated
23 as the report on this accused.
24 JUDGE KWON: Nothing from the Defence?
25 MR. KNOOPS: No, thank you, Your Honour. I have no special
1 remarks for the Status Conference.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it only remains for me once again, on
3 behalf of the Chamber, to express my gratitude to the interpreters who
4 have rendered beyond service today.
5 JUDGE KWON: And the stenographer and all the staff.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The hearing is adjourned.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.42 p.m.