1 Tuesday, 30 June 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Stanisic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
7 you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-03-69-T, the
10 Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 The Chamber has received a report dated the 30th of June, 2009
13 report by the reporting medical officer, Dr. Eekhof. Under paragraph 5,
14 I read that in the opinion of Dr. Eekhof, Mr. Stanisic's health problems
15 remain unchanged. I'm not going through the details, when we could
16 detect smaller or minor changes in the way they are described.
17 We have a report by the principal officer Den Dekker [phoen],
18 from the United Nations Detention Unit, in which he reports on his
19 communication with Mr. Stanisic this morning. We have received a form,
20 absence from court due to illness, in which Mr. Stanisic expresses that
21 he is unable to attend court today due to illness, that he has discussed
22 the matter with counsel, and that he does not waive his right to be
24 Finally, there is a UN -- United Nations Detention Unit Medical
25 Service questionnaire filled in by and signed by Dr. Eekhof in which four
1 items are crossed. The first is that he has examined Mr. Stanisic today;
2 the second that he has no observable symptoms with which he can judge
3 whether he's unwell to attend court; that it is his assessment that
4 Mr. Stanisic require zero days absent before he should be fit to attend
5 court once more; and that the medical officer will see the detainee
6 during his next visit.
7 On the basis of this information, the Chamber is inclined to
8 decide that we should proceed. If there's anything which has not been
9 raised yesterday in more general terms, anything that makes significant
10 change, parties are invited to bring it to our attention.
11 I do not see any wish expressed in that respect, which means that
12 the Chamber decides that we'll continue. That means that for
13 Witness C-015, we will further hear the testimony of this witness with
14 the protective measures.
15 Mr. Knoops, you are about to cross-examine the witness. Do we
16 have to go into private session right away, or could we start in open
18 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, I have at the start of the
19 cross-examination a few questions which might be dealt with in closed
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We turn into closed session, and may the
22 witness be brought into the courtroom.
23 [Closed session]
11 Pages 1644-1655 redacted. Closed session.
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We're now back in open session, Witness C-015.
5 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Witness --
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 MR. KNOOPS:
10 Q. Mr. Witness, do you agree with me that in times of armed conflict
11 the TO became part of the army, the JNA?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you agree that the TO thus became subordinated to the JNA?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you agree with me that with respect to Serb volunteers, they
16 became subordinated to the JNA as well?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you agree with me that in the period of 1990, 1992, the
19 territory of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem was under
20 control of the JNA?
21 A. No, not in 1990.
22 Q. In your estimation, was there any other time period you could
23 point us to where the JNA was exercising control over the territory of
24 Eastern Slavonia
25 A. Yes, in 1991.
1 Q. What about 1992?
2 A. Yes, until the recognition of Croatia.
3 Q. Mr. Witness, from -- you agree with me that from May until
4 December 1991, an armed conflict existed in Eastern Slavonia, Baranja,
5 and Western Srem, and that on the Serb side the commander authority was
6 exercised by the Novi Sad Corps and the 1st Army of the JNA?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, this is a composite question asking to
8 some extent for a legal opinion and to some extent for facts. Could you
9 please split them up.
10 MR. KNOOPS:
11 Q. Mr. Witness --
12 JUDGE ORIE: And I don't know if we should ask this witness any
13 legal opinion about the existence of an armed conflict. Of course, you
14 could ask him about facts which you might consider useful for any
15 determination by this Chamber that an armed conflict did exist.
16 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Witness, are you aware that in the period of May, December
18 1991, the Novi Sad Corps was present on the territory of
19 Eastern Slavonia
20 A. Yes. The Novi Sad Corps and Badza, who was the commander of the
21 TO of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
22 Q. Sorry, I didn't get the translation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I did get a translation, and it is reflected in the
24 transcript on your screen, lines 13 and 14.
25 MR. KNOOPS:
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. Are you aware of the presence of the
2 1st Army of the JNA on the territory of Slavonia
3 Western Srem in the time of May, December 1991?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you aware whether one of the two -- one of these two corps
6 exercised any influence on the territory?
7 A. I told you, but maybe you weren't following. Yes, but Badza did
8 as well. He came, and he was the commander of the Slavonia, Baranja, and
9 Western Srem force. So he was in command of the TO, if you were
10 following my report. And it says in the statement where we were invited
11 for the meeting when he told us that as of that day he was the commander
12 of the Slavonia
13 JNA was there and that the Novi Sad Corps was also in that area, yes.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. Do you know whether Mr. Hadzic. Was in
15 close contact with the JNA among which the commander of the Osijek
16 Barrack, the JNA colonel, Bora Ivanovic?
17 A. Yes, you heard that correctly, but I don't know if he was with
18 him. He wasn't in my area. The Novi Sad Corps was in my area.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. Is it true, Mr. Witness, that the JNA
20 took care of the equipment, supplies, and weapons for the TO at the
21 training camp, Erdut?
22 A. For a while, yes. Everybody wanted to be in Erdut. Everybody
23 did their best to get there. It was only one kilometre away from the
24 border, so it was used by the JNA, by Arkan, by the special forces, and
25 also the Krajina army was there for three days. So everyone actually
1 passed through that TO centre.
2 Q. You speak about "for a while." Can you please indicate what you
3 exactly mean with "for a while"?
4 A. When they came in 1991, when they crossed the bridge. It was a
5 military facility and everything else that you've said so far. You know
6 that when the army came, the commander, when the forces entered said, As
7 of today you are under the command of the JNA. All TO units are
8 mobilised under the commander of the TO [as interpreted].
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. Are you familiar with the fact whether
10 the JNA was also responsible for the distribution of the equipment,
11 supplies, and weapons?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Under the commander
13 of the JNA.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the uniforms, we all were
15 subject to this command, and all the men who were fit for duty had former
16 JN uniforms at home, and we received weapons according to our speciality.
17 So the answer is yes.
18 MR. KNOOPS:
19 Q. Mr. Witness, you just mentioned the name of Badza, and in your
20 statement you say he arrived in Vukovar region together with the JNA.
21 Could you please clarify that?
22 A. No, not the Vukovar area.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, could you -- if you refer to the
24 statement, always assist the Chamber in referring to pages and -- and
25 there are two statements, so we --
1 MR. KNOOPS: Yes. Apologies. It's the first statement of 13 May
2 1999, page 3, third alinea, first sentence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see. Third full paragraph?
4 MR. KNOOPS: Yes, Your Honour, third full paragraph, first line
5 starting with "As far as I know."
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Yes. Would you please put your question
7 to the witness.
8 MR. KNOOPS:
9 Q. Mr. Witness, in your first statement to the investigator you
11 "As far as I know, Radovan Stojicic, also known as Badza arrived
12 in the Vukovar region together with the JNA."
13 Is this a correct statement?
14 A. No, not the Vukovar region. He first came to Dalj. Three days
15 after the JNA entered he came to Dalj, then he went to Erdut, and then we
16 were invited to this meeting. And you'll probably ask me more about
17 that. So it's not the Vukovar area but Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and
18 Western Srem.
19 Q. Mr. Witness, did Mr. Stojicic tell you to follow instructions
20 given by the JNA commanders?
21 A. I don't know which Stojic you're talking about.
22 Q. The person mentioned in this alinea I just paraphrased, Badza.
23 A. Radovan Stojicic. Stojicic and Stojic are two different
25 We were invited, as I explained. When the war began, we were
1 automatically the commanders of these TO units. We were summoned to
2 Erdut, and he told us, as of today, you will no longer be coming to the
3 meetings. You deal with the politics and the establishment of the
4 civilian authority. From today onwards, the meetings will be attended by
5 TO members of the defence.
6 That is what I recall. That is the first and last meeting with
7 him. Later, another colleague of mine would go. He was also a commander
8 of the defence.
9 Q. Apologies for pronouncing the name of Badza wrongly, but my
10 question is, Mr. Witness, whether it's correct that he told you to follow
11 instructions given by JNA commanders. Could you answer that with yes or
12 no, please.
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Witness, is it correct that at that time there
15 was only one person left from the ministry of internal affairs?
16 A. I didn't get the interpretation.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your question so that it
18 will be interpreted, Mr. -- and see whether's no technical problem.
19 MR. KNOOPS:
20 Q. Mr. Witness, at the time you met Badza, was it so that there was
21 only one officer left from the Ministry of Internal Affairs in that area?
22 A. You mean with Badza?
23 Q. In general, in the region.
24 A. I can see that you're not really well-versed. You don't know
25 what the structure was, but I will try to explain.
1 In the axis or along the axis where I was, Badza was not in
2 command or anyone else other than the JNA. Do you understand? This is
3 along the Drava
4 I hope this is a satisfactory answer.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness, it is. May I please then draw the
6 attention to your first statement. It's page 4, the fifth alinea --
7 sorry, the fourth alinea, eighth and ninth line.
8 Mr. Witness, I will read the sentence I refer to, and I ask you
9 to clarify that sentence for me. You testified -- or you stated to the
10 investigators in 1999:
11 "After that, all the police officials in the regions were people
12 whose origins were from Croatia
13 officer that I know of who was left in the area at that time."
14 So my question is: Is it correct that this person was the last
15 MUP officer --
16 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hoffmann.
18 MR. HOFFMANN: I'm just having difficulties to find the exact
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's because it's in the third full paragraph
21 instead of the fourth, because the first paragraph is not -- and that's
22 apparently where Mr. Knoops quoted from.
23 MR. KNOOPS: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Knoops.
25 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. So, Mr. Witness, is it correct that there was only one MUP
2 officer with that name left in the region at that time?
3 A. Mr. President, to make it easier, the gentleman has skipped the
4 whole war. He has gone to the time when -- when Croatia was already
5 recognised, when the army had withdrawn, when the police forces had
7 Yes, only those who were born in the territory of the Republic of
8 the Serbian Krajina or the territory of Croatia
9 be ethnic Serbs.
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Witness, do you agree with the Defence that Arkan
11 was a Serb volunteer?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you familiar that he was registered as such by Mr. Kojic and
14 put under TO command?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Are you aware that Arkan accepted to wear the signs of the TO?
17 A. Yes, yes. I know that.
18 Q. Do you agree with me that Arkan, as such, was subordinated to the
20 A. On paper, yes, but physically, actually, no. Nobody could order
22 Q. Could you please explain what you mean with "nobody could order
24 A. When the refugees from Western Slavonia came to Aljmas, for
25 example, he arrested all the Serbs who were not armed. He took them to
1 the centre. He gave them haircuts and put them through training without
2 authorisation from anyone. But when you say Kojic, I think you're
3 thinking of Mrgud, actually, that he had placed him under the
4 subordination of the TO; but actually, nobody was in charge, but
5 Milan Milanovic was in the TO.
6 Q. Do you know whether Arkan was engaged in military operations?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do you agree, then, when he was engaged in military
9 operations he was under the operational command of the JNA?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it correct that the commander of the Novi Sad Corps at that
12 time was General Biorcevic?
13 A. I'm sorry, I didn't get the interpretation of the first and last
15 No. Andrija Biorcevic. I can help you, if that's who you mean.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Witness, is it correct that, when under control
17 of the JNA, this related to the 12th Novi Sad Corps? In other words, was
18 Arkan and his unit, during combat, under the control of the
19 12th Novi Sad
20 A. To tell you the truth, he would go always where the situation was
21 the most difficult, with his people. The general deployed him to the
22 most difficult places where combat was going on.
23 Q. Is it correct that Arkan took part in operations under the
24 command of the JNA Colonel Boro Ivanovic, the commander of the Osijek
25 barrack in June, July 1991?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You testified yesterday that Arkan and the JNA were getting along
3 with each other. Do you agree with me that it was more than just getting
4 along with the JNA?
5 A. Well, I -- Andrija Biorcevic was there. He obeyed the commands.
6 After Andrija Biorcevic left, he no longer complied with any commands.
7 He actually behaved the way it suited him, but he did go to wherever he
8 was ordered to go.
9 Q. Mr. Witness, do you agree that Arkan's units remained under TO
10 command until 1993, when it left the Krajina?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Could you please explain why you don't agree with this comment of
13 the Defence?
14 A. In 1992, Croatia
15 deployed in our territory. At that time, we did not have the TO.
16 According to the signed agreement, we could only have police forces.
17 He took all -- he actually painted blue all his vehicles and
18 uniforms, and he -- they had the insignia of the Krajina militia, of the
19 Krajina police force.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops. Could we clarify who is meant by "he
22 took all -- he actually painted blue"?
23 Were you referring to Arkan?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
9 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. KNOOPS: Mr. Witness, you just testified that you have, to
21 some extent, knowledge on the organisation of Arkan's unit. Do you know
22 how -- I'll put it differently.
23 Is it correct, Mr. Witness, that Arkan's unit was supplied with
24 food and finances by its social enterprise Dalj? Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know that from hearsay, or do you know that first-hand?
2 A. From hearsay, second-hand.
3 Q. Mr. Witness, is it correct that the unit of Arkan used its own
4 licence plates on cars?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it correct that these licence plates started with the numbers
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, I doubt -- I'm going to move to -- no,
10 sorry, I can deal with that in open session.
11 Q. Mr. Witness, is it correct that the Erdut training centre
12 belonged to the people's Defence, abbreviation, NO, of Osijek?
13 A. It was the JNA's. In Osijek
14 training -- or from Osijek
15 probably, if we are talking about 1991, then it was the JNA. Later,
16 after the Yugoslav Army had disintegrated, it probably was no longer in
17 their ownership.
18 Q. Is it correct that the TO took over the camp on the 1st August
20 A. I have said, and it is so stated in my statement, that we first
21 took the equipment, the armaments that were there. I was within the
22 Novi Sad Corps, so I have no idea what was happening there. They
23 explained to us that there was -- there were troops on our axis, and we
24 were all mobilised. And I went there when the representatives of the
25 OSCE came. I went there for talks with the Croatian side.
1 Q. Mr. Witness, were you familiar with any form of internal fights,
2 power struggles, between Arkan and Mr. Hadzic?
3 A. If we are talking about 1991, while I was still there, I don't
4 know what happened between the two of them. When we had that first
5 government, the prime minister of which was Hadzic. I don't know what
6 happened then, because I only arrived there two years later after all
7 that had changed.
8 Q. Mr. Witness, in your first statement, page 5, the second full
9 alinea, you say:
10 "At that time," that was 1992, "there was a power struggle
11 between Goran Hadzic and his group. For example, from Borovika,
12 Ilija Kostic [sic], minister of police; and Arkan and his supporters, for
13 example, Mrgud, Lunj [phoen], also known as Boko.
14 A. This was not in 1991.
15 Q. I mentioned 1992.
16 A. Nor in 1992.
17 Q. So there was no power struggle?
18 A. Yes, there was, but not at that time.
19 Q. At what time was there a power struggle?
20 A. When the army left, towards the end of 1992 and in early 1993.
21 If I could ask for permission for us to move into closed session,
22 and then I could continue, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into closed session.
24 [Closed session]
11 Pages 1670-1677 redacted. Closed session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Could -- we'll have a break, Witness C-015.
20 Could the witness already be escorted out of the courtroom.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, the Chamber will grant you the
23 15 minutes you requested. At the same time, I've consulted with my
24 colleagues. It's not entirely clear, as a matter of fact, in what
25 direction your cross-examination is going. Is it -- are you challenging
1 the reliability, the credibility of the witness, or is it -- it's rather
2 unclear to us. Or would you say he's associated, one way or another,
3 with Arkan so, therefore, he should not be believed. It's unclear to us,
4 as a matter of fact, where you're heading for. Is there any way that you
5 could assist us in better understanding the course of your
7 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, we are putting several portions of our
8 pre-trial brief to the -- to the witness, and we're not suggesting that
9 the witness is a priori unreliable. But I think it's fair that the
10 witness is also confronted with the elements which may be damaging for
11 him. At this moment, we're not saying that he should be not believed,
12 but we believe he should have a fair chance to comment on all of the
13 documents which are in the file released by the Prosecution.
14 Secondly --
15 JUDGE ORIE: But why would he be -- it seems to be rather far
16 away from the examination-in-chief, isn't it? I mean, I hope that you're
17 not going to put to every witness everything that is disclosed by the
18 Prosecution, to hear his comments on whether he agrees or does not agree.
19 Let's treat a witness with the relevant -- the necessary focus.
20 That is, the witness is called by the Prosecution. Of course, if he has
21 some specific knowledge that would support your case, then, of course,
22 you could, in cross-examination, put questions to him under Rule 90(H) as
23 well; but, of course, the primary focus is to challenge the content of
24 what he said, to challenge the substance of his testimony as it was given
25 in chief, or to challenge his credibility or reliability, and a third
1 element could be that if this witness has any specific knowledge that
2 would support your case, not to say that he would have to review all the
3 documents that were disclosed to you and see whether he challenges them
4 or does not challenge them, because it would be a long case if that would
5 be the general approach.
6 Therefore, I said before I made these critical comments that the
7 Chamber granted you the 15 minutes. In future decisions granting time,
8 please keep in mind that this is what the Chamber expects a
9 cross-examining party to do. You have that 15 minutes on from 20 minutes
10 past 4.00. We have a break until then.
11 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, you may proceed.
15 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Witness, do you agree that you do not have direct knowledge
17 and any Red Beret units in 1991, 1992?
18 A. I do not agree.
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure she heard the
20 answer correctly.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Was the gist of your answer that you do not agree
22 that you have no direct knowledge of Red Beret units in 1991, 1992? Do
23 you have any knowledge, any direct knowledge; or do you not have any
24 direct knowledge?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I never met them in my area.
1 MR. KNOOPS:
2 Q. Mr. Witness, are you familiar with the fact that in
3 Eastern Slavonia
4 the military policemen of the JNA in Ilok?
5 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
6 Q. Are you aware that red berets were worn by the reserve units of
7 the JNA in Eastern Slavonia in that time?
8 A. Yes, there was one in Aljmas, under the command of Captain Kole.
9 Q. And is it correct also that the TO units in Eastern Slavonia wore
10 red berets?
11 A. After the army had left, when the Army of the Republic of the
12 Serbian Krajina was set up, we did have a special unit within our own
13 composition, the Red Berets.
14 Q. Mr. Witness, can you agree with the Defence that in that time the
15 use of uniforms or military insignia were misused by individuals?
16 A. Yes, you're right. We actually fought over these different
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, it appears that the transcript -- I
19 think you said that there were abused or did I misunderstand you.
20 MR. KNOOPS: Misuse.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Misuse or abused.
22 MR. KNOOPS: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Misused by individuals, and that's what the witness
24 answered to. Yes.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. KNOOPS:
2 Q. Mr. Witness, is it correct that Mr. Hadzic, Goran Hadzic, stopped
3 an investigation towards him and his -- his former unity, Sekuritet in
4 1992 which was set up by a local DB unit, Mr. Kojic?
5 A. Yes, I had occasion to see that document. It was by
6 Vladimir Dzuro, an investigator of The Hague, so I read through it. It's
7 he about the financing of his police, and we used to call them the
8 universe police, the outer space police.
9 Q. And what was the reason that Mr. Hadzic was preventing the DB
10 from investigating himself and his organisation, the Sekuritet?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, in view of the answer given to your last
12 question, we should clearly distinguish between what the witness learned,
13 apparently, from a document that was shown to him and what he knows from
14 his own observation. Could you please make that distinction.
15 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honour, I will.
16 Q. Mr. Witness, do you have direct knowledge, apart from the
17 document you saw, about the reason why Mr. Hadzic was preventing this
19 A. No of the all I can say is that it's about financing. He's the
20 one who signed the financing. I assumed that was the reason.
21 Q. Mr. Witness, in your second statement, page 3, it's the second
22 and third line from above, you say:
23 "I recall that Goran Hadzic did not want this investigation to
24 proceed, and he stopped it. He maintained that those people were loyal
25 to him during the war. He trusted them and some of them were his
2 Is this a correct statement you gave to the investigator?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Witness, my final questions relate to your --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, did this -- this ask for a further
7 Earlier you were asked about Goran Hadzic stopping a further
8 investigation. Then you were asked whether you had any personal
9 knowledge. You apparently said no, but you referred to a document which
10 you had seen.
11 Now, this part of your statement that he did not want this
12 investigation to proceed and that he stopped it, and that he maintained
13 that those people were loyal to him during the war and that he trusted
14 them, some of them being his friends. How do you know? From what source
15 do you know that these were the reasons for Mr. Hadzic to stop further
16 investigations? How did you learn it?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I read the document,
18 and it says in it that his best man, the best man of Goran Hadzic,
19 Stevan Bogic, Jajo, is asking for 200 million dinars to finance that
20 police. I don't have another source. This is my assumption, that it's
21 about money.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was my question, what the source of this
23 portion of your statement was. You have answered that question.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Knoops.
25 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you.
1 Q. Mr. Witness, my final questions relate to the person of
2 Mr. Stanisic. If I recall well, you testified yesterday that you only
3 saw him at in total three occasions; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it fair to say that you don't know anything about his role or
7 A. I also told the investigators that I met the man. I described it
8 in my statement how I saw him. I don't have anything else to add.
9 Q. Do you have any direct knowledge on your statement of yesterday
10 in which you say that Mr. Martic qualified Mr. Stanisic as his only
12 A. I just referred back to what he said. I quoted what he said in
13 Knin. I mean, I said that when I provided my statement, and that's how
14 it was.
15 Q. Mr. Witness, my final question is: How can you explain that you
16 never stated this before in your earlier statements, while the video
17 transmission we saw yesterday do not support this remark?
18 A. The statement confirms -- well, I asked the investigators if
19 there was any footage from the time when I was in Knin. The investigator
20 said no.
21 I saw that with Vladimir Dzuro, and I believe that he probably
22 put away lots of footage that I saw from the funeral, many, many clips.
23 So I simply didn't wish to speak about something that I didn't have.
24 Q. Did you ever saw or hear that Mr. Martic was taking any
25 instruction from Mr. Stanisic?
1 A. No, no.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 MR. KNOOPS: That concludes my cross-examination.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Knoops.
5 Mr. Jovanovic, are you ready to cross-examine Witness C-015?
6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by
8 Mr. Jovanovic. Mr. Jovanovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
9 You may proceed.
10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can we
11 move into private session, please?
12 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 1686-1690 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Please proceed,
2 Mr. Jovanovic.
3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do you know who was Geza Farkas's superior as part of the
5 security service of the JNA?
6 A. I do not know who his subordinate was.
7 Q. Are you familiar with the name of Aleksandar Vasiljevic?
8 A. Yes, and how.
9 Q. Tell me, how do you know him?
10 A. Well, in the worst of terms.
11 Q. Can you give me some details?
12 A. I had no contacts with him myself, but everything that he did, he
13 did in a perverted way.
14 Q. Could we again move into private session, please?
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 1693-1697 redacted.
4 [Open session]
5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You said that Mrgud --
7 A. I did not get the translation.
8 Q. You said that Mrgud had or was in a way superior to us -- units
9 in the area. Can you say to what units?
10 A. He began small-time. First he had a squad of Red Berets under
11 him. They had some special official IDs. These were handed over to the
12 Tribunal. Then he went on by becoming "kums" with Arkan, and then he
13 also was in charge of him, and then he personally set up the White Eagles
14 Unit under the command of Slobodan Boca.
15 Q. This unit of Slobodan Boca, where was it based? Where was it
17 A. It was located in Mirkovci, the oil fields, because whosoever
18 controlled the oil would remain boss up to this day.
19 Q. Was there any unit in Djeletovci? Do you know about that?
20 A. Well, that's it. That's the unit I'm talking about. I say
21 Mirkovci because that's where he was headquartered, but you're quite
22 right, Djeletovci. This is precisely there on the oil fields where the
23 bore holes were, and that's where the unit was.
24 Q. Have you heard -- did you hear of a unit called "Skorpioni"?
25 A. Yes, that's them.
1 Q. So am I correct in saying that Mrgud actually established them
2 and used them?
3 A. I am an eyewitness to that. You are quite right. You're a
4 hundred per cent right.
5 Q. You have no knowledge to the effect that Mrgud was in any way
6 connected with the state security department?
7 A. I've told you they lied to us before. I tried to show you
8 exactly how this Mrgud person lied to us. He would always say that it
9 was for the needs of the service, but now, in this time, we can see that
10 it had nothing whatsoever to do with the service. It was his family
11 that -- whose needs were catered for, and his estates that he had in
13 Q. Thank you. In your statements, in your testimony so far, you
14 spoke about Arkan and the Serbian Volunteer Guard, and I understood that
15 in the period that you were there from 1991 up to 1995, you actually
16 regularly saw them until returning from Sanski Most, as you said.
17 A. Not in 1991. When he came to the centre. I told you that my
18 office was -- let me show it to you graphically. This is my office.
19 Across from me was this camp, the training centre in Erdut that we keep
20 referring to. That was some 150 metres away from me. And behind me was
21 the old castle in which were Mrgud as well as Goran Hadzic. They took
22 turns occupying the castle. They would always want to stay in the
24 Q. But the presence of this unit was visible, was it not? In the
25 area, I mean.
1 A. It was very visible, they would run through Erdut. Everybody
2 could see them.
3 Q. Tell me, on the basis of your statement, when you spoke about the
4 armaments, I concluded that you are familiar with weapons. Can you tell
5 me what kind of weapons did the Serbian Volunteer Guard have?
6 A. They started with infantry weapons. These are automatic rifles.
7 Then later when they entered Ernestinovo, then they seized a Croatian
8 tank. It was a T-55 tank. They repainted it. Then the army took it
9 from them and said that they were not supposed to have that, but then
10 they received these infantry personnel carriers with the FAP engine.
11 Later again they had tanks, but they began with infantry weapons.
12 Q. The personnel carriers and the tanks, what colour were they when
13 they came to Arkan's unit first?
14 A. Well, it would come out grey -- it would come in grey and leave
15 black. It was a large room. It belonged to the winery there where they
16 would maintain, repair the vehicles, and this is where they would repaint
17 the SMB-coloured tanks into black.
18 Q. Well, let's clarify. The SMB colour is the drab olive-grey
20 A. Yes. That is the colour of the former JNA uniforms and
22 Q. We heard before from you, and I'm not going to repeat again which
23 occasion exactly this was so that we don't need to go into private
24 session again, but you referred to a member of the Arkan guard whom you
25 referred to a member of the Arkan guard, whom you refer to as Pejo Cigan
1 in your statement; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You saw him?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you describe his physical appearance?
6 A. I could describe it to you. I don't know if the Judges would
7 understand it though. But do you know what the Belgrade Gypsies looked
8 like, the one that jive and sing around Belgrade? That's what he looked
9 like. He was not very tall. He was not very well wired in his
10 body-brain communication.
11 Q. What about his skin tone, his hair colour?
12 A. Dark, and he was -- he had a shaven head.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
14 MR. HOFFMANN: I would -- I'm sorry to interrupt, but I would
15 certainly appreciate if we could have a reference if Mr. Jovanovic refers
16 to the statement.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jovanovic.
18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I am referring to the
19 witness's statement, to an event he described when he received --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Page, please, and --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what he received.
22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I can just ask to
23 return quickly to private session and then I'm going to put a question to
24 the witness and then we will clarify.
25 JUDGE ORIE: But could we not first here what page you refer to
1 with your last question? Then I'm glad to move into private session. Is
2 it the 1999, or the 2001?
3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's a statement
4 from 1999, and it's on the last page of the English translation, second
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And you'd prefer to go into private
7 session, if I understood you well.
8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We will move into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 1703-1706 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE ORIE: And I would encourage you, Mr. Jovanovic, to put
10 focussed questions to the witness, to ask him what he could tell us what
11 he had not told us over the last two days. In a certain respect -- of
12 course, then we got a long answer and something about a driver and
13 cutting oaks, et cetera. Why not ask specific questions to a witness,
14 unless it is about the driver who married to a lady and who they were
15 cutting oaks, unless that is what you wanted to elicit from this witness
16 in -- with that question. Is that what you wanted us to hear?
17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are many
18 things that are not relevant. However, I understood that this is the way
19 that the witness interprets knowledge about certain facts and that it is
20 easier for him to present his answer in this way by always providing some
21 sort of background to a specific event. But in future, I'm going to do
22 my best to interrupt the witness in such a situation so that we could
23 save time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is a -- a -- it is both the answers -- the
25 questions and the answers. If you put very focussed questions to the
1 witness, and if he goes beyond what you want to ask from him, you can
2 stop him and ask him to answer your question. If you're interested to
3 hear background, you can ask background; but let's try to keep focussed
4 on what apparently is the information this witness can provide to the
5 Chamber. But we have a break and we resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jovanovic, please proceed and try to be as
9 focussed as possible.
10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Witness, in your statement, you stated that Ilija Kostic [as
12 interpreted] --
13 MR. HOFFMANN: It's just a question. I think we're still in
14 private session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think we moved into open session before we had the
16 break, and that's what I see confirmed on my screen as well. Therefore,
17 we are not in private session any more.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Jovanovic.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours we moved into open session at page
20 64, line 18 of the transcript.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 Please proceed. Next time when a phone rings, it's at risk of
23 being seized. I know Judges who have a large collection of mobile
24 phones. I have none yet.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Q. Mr. Witness, in your statement, you stated that Ilija Kojic had
3 set up a DB state security unit. Am I right if I say that this was the
4 DB of Krajina?
5 A. Yes, you are right.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann, I take it that you want to invite
7 Mr. Jovanovic always to refer to the page and the statement he's
8 referring to so that we can follow his questions.
9 Mr. Jovanovic, this is a standing invitation. Please proceed.
10 And perhaps already inform us about your last reference.
11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is the
12 supplement to the statement, page 3, paragraph 3. I'm sorry, I'm
14 MR. HOFFMANN: If I may assist.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. HOFFMANN: I think that the Defence is referring to the 2001
17 statement, at page 2, the last paragraph, in the English version.
18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right. Thank
19 you very much.
20 Need I repeat the question?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember the question? Then please answer
22 it. Otherwise, Mr. Jovanovic will repeat it.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have replied. It is yes.
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Please clarify for me whether you knew to what specific
1 department of the Ministry of the Interior Badza belonged.
2 A. Well, when I met him, when I talked with him, when he arrived in
3 Dalj, he said that he was an athlete, a wrestler.
4 Q. Excuse me. I must interrupt you in keeping with instructions
5 from the Chamber. So the question is do you know to -- are you
6 acquainted with the structure, the organisation of the Ministry of the
8 A. No.
9 Q. So he just told you he was with the police?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I ask that we
13 move into private session again.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 1711 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
16 MR. HOFFMANN:
17 Q. Witness, today during cross-examination, and that is on page 16
18 of today's transcript, you were asked about the presence of the
19 Novi Sad Corps and whether the JNA did exercise any influence on the
20 region of the SBWS. And you answered in the positive, and I just want to
21 have just one clarification from you.
22 Did the JNA exercise any influence on units like Arkan's unit or
23 the Skorpions?
24 A. At that time, talking about the presence of the JNA, that was in
25 1991, neither the Skorpions nor Arkan existed. Arkan arrived in Tenja,
1 if you followed my testimony, with some ten-odd men. It was only later
2 that he set up his unit during the actual war operations.
3 Q. Just a follow-up clarification. I think your testimony yesterday
4 was that, yes, Arkan started in Tenja, but he moved in Erdut a little bit
5 later, but that was actually in 1991. Is that not the case?
6 A. Yes, 1991.
7 Q. So can I just repeat the question. At the time, you said the JNA
8 did exercise some influence in the region of the SBWS. Did the JNA or
9 the army have any influence or did it exercise any influence on Arkan's
10 unit when he was in the region?
11 A. Well, in 1991 it was Yugoslavia
12 automatically came under the command of the JNA when the troops came,
13 when the army came. Arkan in his time, while he was in Tenja, did his
14 thing. I cannot tell you what he did or where he was.
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not -- did not understand
16 at all the witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please slowly repeat your answer.
18 And could I ask the interpreters whether it was on from the
19 beginning of the answer or from approximately halfway? I'm listening to
20 the English channel.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The witness can start over, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You started your last -- perhaps I'll repeat
23 first the question:
24 "Did the JNA or the army have any influence, or did it exercise
25 any influence on Arkan's unit when he was in the region?"
1 And that question was put to you after you had confirmed that
2 Arkan had moved in Erdut, still in 1991.
3 You started your answer by saying: "Well, in 1991, it was
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In 1991 it was Yugoslavia
6 still, and all of us who were in that area, when the army came to that
7 area, were placed under the command of the JNA. Arkan was in Tenja. If
8 you recall the map, this is the central ridge or area that juts out.
9 It's about some 30 kilometres away from me. I don't know whether he was
10 under the JNA command or not. I couldn't really tell. We all were. As
11 for him, the fact that Calton's members were captured by the army and
12 handed them over to Arkan and Arkan liquidated them is something. That
13 means that there was some cooperation.
14 MR. HOFFMANN:
15 Q. A bit later during cross-examination you were asked about Arkan
16 again, and you confirmed that you did consider him as a volunteer, that
17 he was, in theory, subordinated to the TO but not factually, and you
18 stated that he was subordinated to the JNA. When you said so, that he
19 was subordinated to the JNA, can you clarify if you're referring to the
20 law at the time or to the factual situation?
21 A. I said that in the actions that were conducted, he was engaged by
22 the Yugoslav People's Army. His unit was engaged, specifically
23 Andrija Biorcevic engaged him on the Vukovar front, which means that he
24 was subordinated to him in those operations.
25 Q. And a bit later, you were telling the Court that Arkan's unit or
1 Arkan had his own licence plate, and that is at page 26. Can you tell
2 the Court where Arkan or his unit got those special license plates from?
3 A. Yes. Mrgud made those licence plates. I mean, he didn't print
4 them, but he brought them to them, according to Milan Milanovic.
5 Q. Just for clarification, do you have any knowledge where those
6 plates were produced and where they came from?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Talking about the meetings Hadzic had with Milosevic, there was
9 mentioning of two meetings. These two meetings are the ones that you
10 actually personally attended; is that correct?
11 A. I did attend one, but the other one not. We were not received.
12 Only Hadzic attended that second one.
13 Q. The Defence did refer to you to the 2001 statement and quoted on
14 page 3 from the second last paragraph, and I want to just read out the
15 second part of that paragraph to you. And it says, and I quote:
16 "I did not have many direct contacts with Goran Hadzic at that
17 time," which is 1991 to February 1992. "However, when he was appointed
18 president of the RSK (26 February 1992
19 President Slobodan Milosevic regularly and talked to him over the phone
20 very often. After the visits to Belgrade, Goran Hadzic would come to the
21 Skupstina (Regional Assembly) and inform us what was to be done in the
23 Is that your statement?
24 A. Yes, it is. I don't know if he actually saw him, but he would
25 leave and go there. He would take documents, the latest documents that
1 he was given. Like I said, these were the laws of the former Yugoslavia
2 so where it used to say the SFRY, it would say RS.
3 Q. Thank you. And on today's transcript, at page 33, you were
4 referred to the 2001 statement again, on page 5, to the first full
5 paragraph, and you refer to the so-called hotline telephones. And in
6 your statement you say: "I assume that it had to be connected to
7 Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, or Jovica Stanisic or Slobodan Milosevic."
8 Can you tell the Court why you assume so?
9 A. The special telephone, according to my information, was a direct
10 line with those people. That's what Mrgud told us. Hadzic also said
11 that nobody was allowed to answer that phone except them. I'm thinking
12 of Mrgud and Hadzic. No one was allowed to answer that phone at that
13 time, I mean, the phone was just a couple of metres away from me.
14 Q. On page 39 of today's transcript, during cross-examination, you
15 were asked about your knowledge about the Red Berets in the area.
11 Page 1717 redacted. Private session.
4 [Private session]
11 Page 1719 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Q. Witness, if I can simply ask you --
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I made the classical mistake to proceed when
24 Madam Registrar has not announced that we are back in open session.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you.
2 Q. Witness, can I ask you again, at the time you did meet
3 Jovica Stanisic on the occasions you described yesterday, did you have
4 any knowledge about the official position of the accused, Jovica
5 Stanisic, at the time?
6 A. Not at the time. I found out later. He actually introduced
7 himself speaking on television. He said that he was the chief of the
8 State Security Department of Serbia
9 men who were tied there in Republika Srpska.
10 Q. Thank you. At the end of page 42, you were asked again about the
11 remarks that you heard Martic making about Jovica Stanisic at a meeting,
12 and the Defence counsel, at line 24, 25, indicated that the video
13 transmission we saw yesterday would have not supported your remarks.
14 Now, my question is: Witness, did you not testify yesterday that
15 the remarks you were referring to were actually made at a different
16 meeting than the one we saw on the clip, on the video footage?
17 A. When you asked me to clarify, when I said that I would not reply
18 and you said that I should; and I did reply, I said this was the second
19 time when he was there, Jovica Stanisic, the icy one, my only commander.
20 This was not in my statement. This is something that I said when you
21 asked me, and the Chairman, Mr. President, instructed me that I should
22 answer your question.
23 Q. Thank you. Moving to another topic. During cross-examination,
24 on page 53, line 40 -- 14, you were asked whether the army had any
25 proceedings initiated regarding the killings you described in your
1 testimony. Can you tell the Court if you are aware of any investigations
2 by any official institution regarding those killings?
3 A. There was an investigation. In Dalj when the court was set up,
4 that was in 1991, the president of the court was Milos Vojnovic. An
5 investigation was launched. Whether it was completed, I don't know,
6 because the court was transferred to Vukovar. I know that this one
7 investigation was initiated, and there was also one by the Croatian
8 authorities, and they convicted them to four, five, and seven years of
9 prison; namely those who maltreated the prisoners in prison.
10 Q. Aside from those investigations that you just referred to, are
11 you aware of any other investigations by any official institution?
12 A. No. There were no other ones. The Defence mentioned when
13 Ilija Kojic wanted to initiate one, and we, who were present there, were
14 shot at. Apart from that, there was nothing else. There had been some
15 arrests of the first man who threatened me, who was arrested by the late
16 Kostic, and I have already described that.
17 Q. On page 55, line 21, you were talking about Mrgud and the
18 smuggling of cigarettes, and you testified it was always for the needs of
19 the service. What service do you refer to?
20 A. This is what he said for the needs of the service. That meant
21 for the needs of the security service. Those were his words, and you can
22 get it from a court to see whether money actually ended up.
23 Q. If you say security service, which one are you referring to?
24 MR. KNOOPS: Objection.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What's --
1 MR. KNOOPS: The witness is not saying himself the security
2 service. He says, "I was --"
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to cut this short. I understood the
4 witness to say, he said as a pretext, that it was for the service, but
5 you have serious doubts whether it was not for his personal interest,
6 isn't it?
7 Now, to know for what service it actually was not meant, to
8 further explore that seems not to be of great assistance to the Chamber.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
10 MR. HOFFMANN: I will. Thank you.
11 Q. On page 57, on questions by the Defence, you do refer -- or you
12 stated that Milan Milanovic, Mrgud, did all this for his own family. How
13 do you know that?
14 A. There was an indictment against him in Serbia. I also read it in
15 the papers, and I inquired about. And I was also told that he was rich
16 as Croesus, that he was filthy rich, and he is currently in prison.
17 Q. So other than this hearsay evidence, you have no direct knowledge
18 of him working or making profit for his family; correct?
19 A. No. No, in fact, you're right, yes.
20 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, may we just seek clarification? Is the
21 Prosecution impeaching their own witness and cross-examining their own
22 witness now? It seems to the Defence that the Prosecution is putting
23 apparently discrepancies or clarifications to the Defence -- to the
24 witness which are apparently not favourable to them. It's on the verge
25 of impeaching their own witness. I think it's not proper.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jovanovic, I've not heard you yet.
3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned colleague
4 from the OTP is actually not saying that the witness found this out from
5 the investigators of the OTP. He's not raising an objection to that
6 effect. He just says that it is hearsay. Is it the position of the OTP
7 that what their investigator says is actually hearsay; that is, indirect
8 knowledge? So the OTP has not actually advanced any doubts in terms that
9 Vladimir Dzuro has said something to this witness. They just say that
10 this is hearsay. They're not only impeaching their own witness but also
11 impeaching their own investigator in this way.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The objections are denied. You please repeat the
14 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does not consider that the Prosecution
16 is impeaching its own witness. Please proceed.
17 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. I'm simply asking you, Witness, you did state on page 57 that
19 Milan Milanovic, Mrgud, was doing various things for the sake, for the
20 profit of his family. All I'm doing is to ask you for the source of that
22 A. I shall repeat. Vladimir Dzuro told me that he was rich, very
23 rich, and the other sources of information were the press and the
24 television, Radio Television Belgrade, and they had heard, that
25 Milan Milanovic had been arrested on account of cigarette smuggling
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. One second, please.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 Questioned by the Court:
9 [Private session]
11 Page 1727 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 Witness C-015, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to thank
17 you very much for coming to The Hague
18 that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a
19 safe trip home again.
20 Mr. Hoffmann.
21 MR. HOFFMANN: Just to err on the side of caution, if he leaves
22 the courtroom, we should be in closed session. Okay. I'm mistaken.
23 Then it's fine.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In this courtroom where the blinds are down,
25 no one can see the witness, and apart from that, I'll not invite the
1 witness to be escorted out of the courtroom at this very moment.
2 We adjourn until -- yes --
3 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: That is one matter I would like to raise
4 very briefly.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But that is not related to this witness?
6 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would invite the Usher to escort the witness
8 out of this courtroom, and in this courtroom no one can see him.
9 Therefore, we just should take care that the face distortion that -- yes.
10 I think -- you now may escort the witness out of the courtroom,
11 Mr. Usher.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just allow me to thank you for the
13 opportunity that you have offered me, and I wish you much success in your
14 work. Thank you very much, and I thank you for my protective measures.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- could you -- yes. Could you please
16 escort the witness out of the courtroom.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Brehmeier, you wanted to raise a procedural
19 issue, I take it.
20 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Yes, I want to raise one matter, and I'd
21 request the guidance of the court on this. It relates to the witness
22 that is coming next week. As Your Honours will know, we have provided
23 the Court with CDs containing the statements of those witnesses for which
24 we have requested admission under 92 ter or 92 bis. The witness that is
25 coming next week will be a viva voce witness, so no statements have been
1 provided to the Court as of yet, and I would request from the Court to
2 know -- to let me know whether such statements should be required --
3 provided to the Court, which, of course, we will be happy to do.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Are statements taken?
5 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Statements were taken, I do understand.
7 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Yes, two statements and a proofing note.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And is there any intention to rely on those?
9 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Not in examination-in-chief, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has the Defence received those statements?
11 MR. KNOOPS: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know already whether you would like to rely
13 on them? Because if no one relies on statements, then, of course,
14 there's no need for the Chamber to --
15 MR. JORDASH: Unlikely, I would suggest.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jovanovic.
17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, the same, but
18 in any case, the Defence will pay attention to possible discrepancies in
19 the examination-in-chief and what was previously stated in a statement.
20 We cannot completely disregard that, but at the same time, we will not
21 rely on it totally either.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I also inquire with the Defence whether there would
23 be any objection to the Chamber looking at these statements, although
24 they will not be used in evidence, and of course if they're not admitted
25 into evidence, the Chamber would never rely on those statements unless,
1 of course, the Chamber itself being entitled to ask questions from a
2 witness could find inconsistencies with previous statements.
3 Mr. Jordash.
4 MR. JORDASH: We wouldn't object. In fact, it would certainly
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jovanovic.
7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] There will be no objections to
8 that, and we believe that in any case, the Chamber needs to be informed
9 in advance about the content of the testimony of the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course we receive the 65 ter summary, but
11 let me just consult with my colleagues.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Brehmeier, the Chamber would like to receive
14 copies of the statements also in view of the positions taken by the
16 Any other matter?
17 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Nothing, Your Honour. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Any matter to be raised by the Defence?
19 Then we adjourn until next week Monday, the 6th of July, quarter
20 past 2.00 in the afternoon, in Courtroom I.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.
22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of
23 July, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.