1 Wednesday, 26 August 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Stanisic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-03-69-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 I'd like is to start, as we usually do, with establishing who's
12 present and who's not present. As far as Mr. Stanisic is concerned, the
13 Chamber received a medical report, as a matter of fact, two medical
14 reports, one of yesterday and one of today, although today's report seems
15 to be not having the right date on it. We further received a form under
16 the heading "Absence From Court Due to Illness," which was signed by
17 Mr. Stanisic, dated the 26th of August. We further have a written
18 statement of the principal officer, which is signed by Mr. Lagendijk, and
19 we have an UNDU medical service form signed by Dr. Eekhof apart from his
20 medical report. From appears that Mr. Stanisic considers himself not fit
21 enough to appear in court, that he doesn't want to use the videolink
23 Any observations in relation to this, Mr. Knoops?
24 MR. KNOOPS: No observations, Your Honour, other than that the
25 Defence is awaiting the report of Dr. De Man.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Dr. De Man was expected to deliver his report
2 by the end of August, and we do understand that it might be until the
3 31st of August that we'll have to wait to receive his report. The
4 Chamber tries to do its utmost best that there will be sufficient time
5 before the next hearing -- the hearing next week that we'll be able to --
6 to digest the report of Dr. Eekhof and see whether he's available for
7 further questions.
8 I did understand there's no need to put further questions to
9 Dr. Eekhof under the present circumstances.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decides that we'll proceed under the
12 present circumstances.
13 I started by saying that we'll establish who is present today.
14 Mr. Jovanovic is not in this courtroom; he's not with us any more. The
15 Judges of this Chamber, and I speak on their behalf, received the message
16 of Mr. Jovanovic's passing away on the 2nd of August, with sadness. The
17 Chamber expresses its sympathy with all those who suffer the loss caused
18 by his passing away, be it in the personal or in the professional
19 relationship they had with him.
20 The expression of the Judges of this Chamber, of their feelings
21 in relation to the passing away of Mr. Jovanovic cannot change the
22 situation that it has some consequences on procedural matters as well,
23 because, Mr. Simatovic, you are without lead counsel at this moment.
24 The Chamber was updated regularly on the efforts to have lead
25 counsel replaced. The Chamber understands that there have been
1 discussions between OLAD; you, Mr. Simatovic; Mr. Domazet; and candidates
2 for replacing Mr. Jovanovic. The reason that the Chamber wanted to be
3 kept updated is because it may have an impact on scheduling of this case.
4 The Chamber is a bit concerned about sometimes contradicting
5 information which apparently reached OLAD. As matters stand now, the
6 Chamber establishes that where lead counsel is not available any more, he
7 can not represent you, that the normal course of events is that
8 co-counsel then takes over. The Chamber also understands that,
9 Mr. Simatovic, that it's your wish that that would only be temporarily,
10 that Mr. Domazet would take over in his function as co-counsel, replacing
11 lead counsel, and that you would wish someone else to be appointed as
12 lead counsel. The Chamber also understands that there is an ongoing
13 discussion with OLAD on who then would replace Mr. Jovanovic and whether
14 that new lead counsel would still have Mr. Domazet on his side as
16 At this moment, the Chamber has no reason not to proceed on the
17 basis of what I just said, that is that co-counsel takes over the
18 functions, even if only temporarily, of lead counsel, and that you'll be
19 represented by co-counsel. At the same time, the Chamber is aware that
20 apparently there's a confusing situation at this moment in which
21 suggested solutions by OLAD are not yet accepted.
22 Now, assignment of lead counsel is not a matter which is
23 appropriate to discuss in open court in detail. If there would be any
24 need to further look into the matter and not leave it exclusively to the
25 discussions between OLAD candidates; you, Mr. Simatovic; and Mr. Domazet,
1 then of course you could apply for having a hearing on the matter, which
2 the Chamber would consider to be appropriately held ex parte, because the
3 Chamber holds the view at this moment that difficulties in assignment and
4 selection of counsel availability and all matters involved is not
5 something the Prosecution should be involved in.
6 Would you agree with that, Mr. Groome?
7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, the Chamber will proceed. The
9 Chamber offers its assistance in resolving the matter, which is of course
10 primarily a matter between you, Mr. Simatovic, Mr. Domazet, and
11 candidates for a position of lead counsel, and OLAD. And if there's any
12 need to have such an ex parte hearing, the Chamber would like to hear
13 that as soon as possible. In view of the present circumstances,
14 Mr. Simatovic, the Chamber is also willing to hear whether you
15 personally, although represented by Mr. Domazet, would have any view
16 different from Mr. Domazet at this moment, and if you would like to have
17 such an ex parte hearing held in the presence of a representative of
18 OLAD, Mr. Domazet, you, and whomever, we'd need to hear at that moment,
19 we'd like to hear as soon as possible. It takes some technical
20 preparations for such a hearing, because it needs different tapes,
21 et cetera, et cetera. So it's a very special setting which would need to
22 be prepared, and the Chamber will, without delay, try to schedule such a
23 meeting if there's any need to hold such an ex parte hearing.
24 Therefore, if you can express yourself already on the matter,
25 then please feel free to do so. If not, we'll hear from you as soon as
1 possible, and at least as far as today's hearing is concerned, we'll
2 proceed, as I said before, that is co-counsel taking over
3 responsibilities of lead counsel.
4 Is there anything, Mr. Domazet, you, or you, Mr. Simatovic, would
5 like to submit at this moment?
6 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, your proposal for an
7 ex parte hearing is something, given the view you express, we would like
8 to have held as soon as possible, including myself and Mr. Simatovic to
9 clear these matters up. I prepared a brief outline of this situation,
10 although perhaps it should be done in closed session if you want to
11 receive some sort of a brief explanation about the issues at hand. I
12 would prefer to have that in private session, if possible.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would you consider it appropriate to deal
14 with the matter in the presence of the Prosecution, or would you rather
15 wait until we have scheduled, which, for example, might be tomorrow
16 because it needs some preparations, to hear from you tomorrow, because
17 the Chamber is quite willing to grant a request for an ex parte hearing
18 because the information the Chamber received until now sufficiently
19 justifies to have such a hearing if you and/or Mr. Simatovic would
20 request such a hearing to be held. So would you want to elaborate on the
21 matter now already, or would you prefer to wait until we are in a setting
22 where the Prosecution is not present and where, of course, we are in
23 closed session anyhow?
24 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I agree with the proposal that it
25 be held as soon as possible, i.e., tomorrow, and perhaps we can hear
1 Mr. Simatovic's opinion on it as well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Simatovic, would you like to address the Chamber
3 in relation to this matter?
4 THE ACCUSED SIMATOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
6 THE ACCUSED SIMATOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe we are not
7 ready to proceed with examining this witness at all, because I did not
8 have time to sit down and work with Mr. Domazet. We did not prepare the
9 case together, and we did not go into the examination of the witness. I
10 saw Mr. Domazet only when I arrived here in the prison, that is to say in
11 May. That was the first time I saw him.
12 Mr. Domazet is not familiar with the subject matter and the
13 defence case I put together with the late Mr. Jovanovic. We have been
14 putting together the case for six years. It involves a number of
15 matters, an enormous amount of documents that Mr. Jovanovic and I went
16 through. That documentation is still in his office, and Mr. Domazet can
17 confirm you -- to you that the two of us did nothing together. I don't
18 know how we could proceed examining the witnesses since I don't have
19 Mr. Jovanovic's notes about what the plan was in terms of individual
20 witnesses and how the examinations should proceed.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Simatovic. Let me just ...
22 The Chamber was informed on the 25th of August that Mr. Domazet
23 had indicated that the trial could proceed with the hearing of witnesses
24 as scheduled. The Prosecution wanted to know whether or not they could
25 proceed calling the witnesses.
1 Mr. Simatovic, I see you're raising your shoulders. I earlier
2 said that there may be a confusing situation at this very moment. It is
3 on this basis that the Chamber, at the time, gave the green light to
5 Now, the witnesses for this purpose are here. We might hear more
6 tomorrow about why there was no direct communication between Mr. Domazet
7 and you, Mr. Simatovic, with the Chamber that we could not proceed or
8 that the papers were not there, because I think that the unavailability
9 of the papers was reported, I think only today to this Chamber instead of
10 already on -- at an earlier stage. I also do not fully understand why
11 there has not been more thorough communication between you and
12 Mr. Domazet during the last couple of weeks so that the Chamber would
13 have known better what the situation was.
14 As I said before, this might not be a matter to deal with in
15 detail in an open session, and perhaps we should keep that for a ex parte
16 hearing. At the same time, the witness is here. The Chamber has not
17 received, until now, any clear request filed in such a way that the
18 Chamber could understand that it was directly addressed to postpone
19 further hearings. For these reasons, I suggest that we'll proceed, that
20 we'll hear the evidence in chief of the next witness, which is a 92 ter
21 witness, that an opportunity will be given to the Stanisic Defence to
22 cross-examine the witness, that an opportunity will be given to
23 Mr. Domazet, to the extent he considers this possible, to cross-examine
24 the witness, and the Chamber will then see whether at any later stage
25 there will be any request for recalling the present witness for further
1 cross-examination by the Simatovic Defence, but then also have more
2 information about how the present situation developed and whether there
3 is a justification to give another opportunity to cross-examine the next
5 This is what I suggest we'll do.
6 Mr. Domazet, you're on your feet.
7 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to say a
8 couple of things briefly, and this can be done in open session. I wish
9 to avoid any sort of misunderstanding between me and Mr. Simatovic. I
10 received the only letter from Mr. Groome on the 18th of August. It was
11 an e-mail, actually, inquiring prior to Mr. Kirudja departing whether
12 there were any problems with his testimony. I spoke with Mr. Simatovic
13 in Belgrade. At that time he told me that he had decided on the lead
14 counsel and that he notified the Registrar, and that without that person
15 being approved he wanted -- he did not want to proceed any further.
16 I sent communication to Mr. Groome and several other addressees a
17 couple of days later, stating that there was a problem with this
18 particular witness and that I was informed by Mr. Simatovic that he was
19 against proceedings unless the preconditions were fulfilled.
20 This puts me in an awkward position, because I'm now being told
21 that I was not on time with information, whereas, as a matter of fact, I
22 did. We even discussed it with OLAD a few days ago, including the
23 matters that I am about -- I was -- I wanted to put to you in the
24 ex parte session tomorrow.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, of course the appropriate way of dealing
1 with the matter would have been to file a request for suspension of
2 hearings with full reasons to be given. That's -- the Chamber, of
3 course, is not in a position to try to get its information from everyone
4 involved in the situation. If there's a clear view on the matter, then
5 the Chamber expects the parties to file the appropriate requests and
6 motions so that we can decide on the matter.
7 At the same time, it may be clear that where the Chamber already
8 suggested that an ex parte hearing would be useful to clarify the
9 situation, that we're not blind and deaf for those situations. But also
10 it was, I think, before you had sent your messages, Mr. Domazet, on that
11 same 20th of August that the Chamber was informed that prior to sending
12 this message on behalf of Mr. Simatovic that there was a message which
13 went in a different direction, being that we could proceed with the
14 hearing of the case and that only later that day a different message came
15 in. That's what I was talking about when I was talking about
16 contradicting information.
17 Any further submissions in relation to proceeding at this moment,
18 having Mr. Kirudja cross-examined by the Stanisic Defence, giving an
19 opportunity to the Simatovic Defence to cross-examine Mr. Kirudja, and if
20 the Simatovic Defence considers not to be in a position and will
21 therefore not cross-examine Mr. Kirudja, we'll later consider whether the
22 circumstances justify, but then with full knowledge of all the
23 developments since the beginning of August whether the fairness of this
24 proceedings require that Mr. Kirudja should appear to be further
25 cross-examined by the Simatovic Defence?
1 Any submissions in relation to this suggested course of
3 Mr. Domazet, no further comments?
4 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, none. Thank you very much,
5 Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Simatovic, exceptionally, any further comments
7 or submissions from you on this suggested course to take?
8 THE ACCUSED SIMATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you
9 very much for allowing me to address you. I'm sure that there will be a
10 need for subsequent cross-examination once I get hold of all the notes
11 that Mr. Jovanovic made in relation to this witness, because as I've
12 already told you, I've not prepared anything with Mr. Domazet. I've seen
13 Mr. Domazet only four times so far since he was appointed, and I don't
14 know how he could be in a position to cross-examine. I don't think we
15 should be in a -- put in that position at all. I believe that the best
16 course of action would be for you to allow us to cross-examine the
17 witness at some later stage during the proceedings.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If such -- I consider this to be already a request
19 to allow for further possibility to cross-examine the witness. The
20 Chamber will not at this moment decide on the matter. It would be more
21 appropriate to decide on the matter once we have had the ex parte hearing
22 as requested by you.
23 Mr. Groome.
24 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution also wishes
25 to express its deep regret at the passing of Mr. Jovanovic.
1 When I returned to the office on October -- August 12th, I
2 contacted Mr. Domazet to express my condolences and then also to offer
3 the Prosecution's willingness to make accommodation that might help in
4 this transition period. I am not sure how Mr. Jovanovic and Mr. Domazet
5 allocated the different witnesses and who would be responsible for
6 examination, but I certainly expressed the Prosecution's willingness to
7 consider rescheduling witnesses in a way that facilitated Mr. Domazet's
8 ability to adequately represent Mr. Simatovic during this -- this time
10 I also say that on the record now such that the Chamber is aware
11 that maybe one of the matters that might be discussed at tomorrow's
12 ex parte hearing is whether the scheduling of witnesses might also assist
13 during this transition period, and again the Prosecution stands ready to
14 consider that. Obviously we don't want to disrupt the work of the --
15 unnecessarily or unduly interrupt the work of the Stanisic team, but we
16 are willing to discuss with the Chamber and with Defence counsel
17 accommodations that may be made to assist in this -- in these events.
18 Thank you.
19 Oh, sorry, Your Honour, just one additional point. Dr. Kirudja
20 is scheduled to testify about the Karadzic case and the Mico Stanisic
21 case. I'm not sure when that would be, but obviously that would be an
22 opportunity to easily recall him without significant expense.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You say he'll be around soon anyhow. That's -- yes,
24 well, soon or not, but at least in the future, yes.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decides that we'll proceed today and
2 that we'll hear the testimony of Mr. Kirudja and that the Chamber will
3 consider the request to cross-examine Mr. Kirudja at a later stage to the
4 extent there's no possibility at all today to cross-examine Mr. Kirudja,
5 but to re-cross examine him at a later stage by the Simatovic Defence.
6 We'll consider that, but we'll not decide on the matter before we've had
7 the ex parte hearing.
8 Is there any -- let me just have a look whether there are any --
9 yes. I would like to put on the record that there has been a request by
10 the Stanisic Defence at the end of July not to hold hearings in the first
11 week of September 2009. That's next week. This matter was never
12 formally filed, but the matter was raised by the Stanisic Defence in an
13 e-mail exchange, the reason for the request being the absence of one of
14 the counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
15 After having verified that at least one counsel could be present
16 for the scheduled hearings, the request was denied, but this was after
17 having further consulted with the Stanisic Defence.
18 I just wanted to put this on the record.
19 Those are the procedural matters I would like to raise before we
20 move on to the -- move on to hearing the evidence of the next witness to
21 be called. Any other matter to be raised at this moment? Not.
22 Then, Mr. Groome, are you ready to call your next witness?
23 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls
24 Dr. Charles Kirudja to the stand.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kirudja.
3 THE WITNESS: Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kirudja, before you give evidence in this court
5 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn
6 declaration that you speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
7 the truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher, and I would
8 like to invite to you make at that solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
10 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: CHARLES KIRUDJA
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Kirudja.
13 Mr. Kirudja, you are called by the Prosecution as a witness.
14 Therefore, Mr. Groome will be the first to examine you.
15 Mr. Groome, please proceed.
16 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Examination by Mr. Groome:
18 Q. Dr. Kirudja, the official records of this Tribunal include
19 evidence that you provided in the case of Prosecutor versus
20 Slobodan Milosevic, case number IT-02-54, on the 31st of January, the 3rd
21 and 4th of February, in 2003, on transcript pages 15374 to 15614. Do you
22 recall giving evidence in the Milosevic case on those dates?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review your testimony from the
25 Milosevic case?
1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. Now that you have taken the solemn declaration in this case, do
3 you affirm the accuracy of the evidence you gave in the
4 Slobodan Milosevic case?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. If you were to be asked the same questions here today, would you
7 give the same answers in substance?
8 A. Certainly.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
10 the prior testimony of Charles Kirudja from case IT-02-54 from the 31st
11 of January to the 4th of February, 2003.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to give an opportunity to the Defence.
13 This matter, of course, has in a rather odd sequence already been the
14 subject of submissions, because the -- there are 92 ter motions which
15 will later correct it, and then finally withdrawn and then reinstated.
16 Mr. Knoops, the position taken by the Stanisic Defence is, I
17 think, the first time you have expressed the position of the
18 Stanisic Defence in the response to the initial motion, which was one of
19 many motions which does not go in much detail as far as Mr. Kirudja's
20 testimony is concerned. Then I think later when after the withdrawal the
21 motion was reinstated, the response was that you expressed similar
22 objections as you did before.
23 Is there anything you'd like to add to what has been in writing
25 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honour. No additions to the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Mr. Domazet, I think the Simatovic Defence has responded to the
4 first application for having the statements and the testimony being
5 admitted into evidence. After the withdrawal and after then the
6 application being reinstated, we have not had -- we have not had any
7 further response. Does this Chamber have to understand this position to
8 be that the initial response is still the valid response for the
9 application even after having been reinstated?
10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 THE INTERPRETER: When speaking could Mr. Groome please speak
14 more closely to his microphone. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will finally decide on the admission of
16 all written statements or testimony at one time, but since now we're
17 dealing with the -- with the transcripts of the earlier testimony, we'll
18 have them marked for identification.
19 Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P47 marked for identification,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, during the course of Dr. Kirudja's
24 evidence in the Slobodan Milosevic case, the Prosecution tendered
25 18 exhibits. These were admitted into evidence by Judge May at
1 transcript page 15484 as Exhibit 378, tabs 1 through 18. I have spoken
2 to the Defence counsel of the Stanisic Defence team and they agreed to
3 the admittance of these exhibits in this trial. Mr. Domazet informed me
4 yesterday that circumstances prevented him from entering into such an
5 agreement. But the Prosecution at this time would tender those
6 accompanying as exhibits.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Domazet, I do understand that you felt not able
8 to enter into an agreement, but even if you wouldn't agree on it, are
9 there any specific objections you would like make to make in respect of
10 these documents?
11 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm really not in a
12 position -- or, rather, I wasn't in a position to make any agreements
13 because I hadn't spoken to my client about that. I repeat, I'm not in a
14 position to state my opinion.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course the question arises again whether --
16 why no communication, even on such technical matters has taken place, but
17 let's keep on the safe side at this moment.
18 Madam Registrar, could these documents be marked for
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P45, Your Honours, marked for
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, for the convenience and for the
24 accuracy of this many documents, I have prepared just a list of all of
25 the documents with identifying information, if it assists the Registrar
1 or if the court staff is assisted by it, there are sufficient copies
2 here. So I ask that these be provided to the Registrar.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
4 MR. GROOME:
5 Q. Now, Dr. Kirudja, beginning on the bottom of page 15477 of your
6 prior testimony, you gave evidence related to what is referred to as the
7 hostage crisis, an event in which a large number of UN peacekeepers and
8 other personnel were taken hostage by the Bosnian Serb army. The Chamber
9 now has your transcript about that event before them for their
10 deliberations should they admit them as exhibits. Would I like to ask
11 you several particular questions not covered in your original testimony
12 on the matter.
13 I would ask that you take a look at the screen before you at
14 65 ter number 625 which was introduced in the Slobodan Milosevic case as
15 P378, tab 17. It is a code cable from you to Mr. Akashi dated the 9th of
16 June, 1995, summarising discussions you had with Jovica Stanisic. Can I
17 ask you, do you recall what language this meeting was conducted in?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, before we give an opportunity to answer
19 to Mr. Kirudja, could you please repeat what portion of the evidence,
20 that is, date and page number of your prior testimony?
21 MR. GROOME: The transcript number is 15477, and I'm not
22 100 percent sure, but I believe this was on the 31st of January, 2003.
23 Mr. Kirudja -- or Dr. Kirudja testified over the course of three days. I
24 believe this was the first day he gave this evidence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Dr. Kirudja, do you have a recollection as to what language the
3 meeting with Mr. Stanisic was held in?
4 A. Your Honour, my meeting with Jovica Stanisic were one-on-one
5 meetings in his office. This is obviously a long, long time. All the
6 details are not as fresh in my mind other than what I have said. And
7 since I don't, myself, speak the local language, it is my considered
8 recollection that we -- he spoke to me directly, and that could only have
9 been in English.
10 Q. Could I now ask you, how is it that you came to conduct
11 negotiations on this crisis with Mr. Jovica Stanisic?
12 A. This came about first as a result of my job as the delegate of
13 the special representative of the Secretary-General based in Belgrade,
14 who at that time was Mr. Akashi. When the UN staff were taken hostage,
15 Mr. Akashi and then President Milosevic had discussed these matters in my
16 meetings separately than what this cable is talking about. And we had
17 sought the assistance of Slobodan Milosevic in the release of these
18 hostages at that time when the matter of who it takes to deal with as
19 these matters proceeded, because the hostages were not all released at
20 once; it took some time. It naturally became my task to liaise with
21 Stanisic, who I understood was tasked by Milosevic to assist the UN in
22 getting these hostages released, and consequently, I of course met with
23 him in a series of meetings with the objective of having him secure the
24 remaining hostages. They were not all released all at once.
25 Q. Now, Dr. Kirudja, I would like to direct your attention to
1 paragraph 5 of your code cable. On page 2 of this document it reads:
2 "Stanisic proposes if you confirm there is indeed an armed UN
3 group in a situation as described, that he would go to the Bosnian
4 territory while maintaining contact with our office in Belgrade and set
5 up a means of identifying his forces from those of the Serb captors on
6 the ground. Simultaneously, the blocked UN group would receive
7 coordinating orders leading to a 'crossover' to Stanisic's forces."
8 In your prior testimony with respect to this on page T 15481 of
9 what is now marked for identification as P47, in response to being asked
10 whether Mr. Stanisic already had forces present in Bosnia or whether he
11 was sending them in as a result of your discussions, you said:
12 "My strong understanding is that he had in place already forces
13 in Bosnia which he needed to contact discreetly for this purpose."
14 Can I ask you to describe for the Chamber what was the basis of
15 what you characterised as a strong understanding?
16 A. When I met with Mr. Stanisic over this matter, there was a
17 context which he outlined himself directly, and as I recall it, that
18 context was something to the effect that he ran a great risk personally
19 as well as the interest he represented, because, in his own words, there
20 were both forces opposed to the release of the hostages, and therefore he
21 needed himself to be careful to contact his own forces that would be
22 to -- those who would assist him accomplish the objective of releasing
23 without any further harm the hostages. Therefore, he did, himself, refer
24 to -- to the need "to contacted my own forces" in these other difficult
25 and dangerous exercises that he had set his mind to -- to accomplish and
1 needed to be there personally.
2 Q. Now, drawing your attention to page 3, paragraph number 9 of the
3 same code cable of the 9th of June, 1995, it says:
4 "Stanisic plans to return back to BiH tomorrow and has a planned
5 meeting with Mladic."
6 Were you ever advised whether in fact Mr. Stanisic had this
7 meeting with General Mladic?
8 A. No, I don't recall him apprising me of having accomplished that
10 Q. During your interaction or your meetings with Mr. Stanisic, did
11 he express any reservation about his ability to find and meet with
12 General Mladic?
13 A. It seemed to be a matter of fact that he was expecting he would
14 be meeting with Mladic, as well as other unspecified groups, forces, if
15 you like, that were to assist him. He spoke, as a matter of fact, that
16 he was going to meet, not that there was even a condition that he might
17 not meet.
18 Q. What was the status the border between Serbia and Bosnia at this
19 point in time?
20 A. I believe this code was about June; right?
21 Q. Yes, the 9th of June, 1995.
22 A. As I recall, already the border between Serbia and Bosnia had
23 been closed by order of Milosevic at that time, had been closed for a
25 Q. Now, I would ask you to take a look at 65 ter 626. It was
1 Prosecution -- it was P378, tab 18, in the Milosevic case, and I would
2 ask you to take a look at it on the screen before you. It was a code
3 cable dated the following day, the 10th of June, 1995, from yourself to
4 Mr. Akashi and General Smith and recounts another meeting you had with
5 both Jovica Stanisic and Slobodan Milosevic. The Chamber will be able to
6 study the document in detail during its deliberations, but I want to seek
7 your comment on two portions of your code cable.
8 On page 2 of the code cable, in the first full paragraph, you
9 report Mr. Stanisic as having told you about meetings he had with both
10 Mr. Karadzic and General Mladic. Do you know if Mr. Stanisic was in
11 direct communication with Mr. Stanisic and General Mladic, or was he
12 simply reporting on their views as reported by others?
13 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that there was a slip of the tongue
14 when you said, Do you know if Mr. Stanisic was in direct communication
15 with Mr. Stanisic? You meant to refer to Mr. Karadzic.
16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you for that clarification.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Could you answer the question,
18 Mr. Kirudja.
19 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, once again there were -- Mr. Stanisic
20 had a reason also when he met with me to state what he stated, to create
21 my understanding or to make me understand the context in which he was
22 doing the exercise. In this particular cable, as you can see its copied
23 also to General Rupert Smith, Karadzic -- sorry, Stanisic had expressed,
24 as I said earlier, his apprehension that the exercise was fraught with
25 dangers because of parties or forces that didn't want to release the
1 hostages. So he was saying he would be meeting with these people,
2 including Karadzic and others, to accomplish it, and he spoke as a matter
3 of course, not like if he felt he wouldn't be able to meet with him. He
4 spoke as a matter of course "I will be meeting with him." And in this
5 particular instance he had requested certain information from -- through
6 me from General Smith and that he wanted me to make sure that
7 General Smith understood that context and that he would expect some
8 answers that I conveyed to Smith, to Rupert Smith.
9 MR. GROOME:
10 Q. Now, that paragraph continues:
11 "The question on Stanisic's mind was therefore whether to bring
12 pressure on Mladic/Karadzic to release the 'Sarajevo Group' directly to
13 UNPROFOR in Sarajevo or to himself for transportation back to Belgrade as
14 was done with the last two groups."
15 My question to you is did Mr. Stanisic explain to you what he
16 viewed as the respective advantages of the two courses of action he was
17 contemplating, that is the direct release of the hostages to UNPROFOR or
18 release into his custody for subsequent release by him in Belgrade?
19 A. He made it abundantly clear that his preference was that this
20 batch, remaining batch of hostages, be released to him, not to UNPROFOR,
21 in a manner similar to the previous batches that were also to -- released
22 to him, and that was a clear preference that he wanted them released to
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, may I seek some further clarification of
25 one of the answers.
1 Mr. Kirudja, Mr. Groome asked you whether, referring to this
2 cable, whether you had the impression that Mr. Stanisic had directly
3 communicated with Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Mladic. I read again the relevant
5 "Stanisic told me that he had spoken this morning with Karadzic,
6 who seemed to be," and then follows. A few lines further down:
7 "Mladic, on the other hand, seems intent on continuing to block
8 the UN."
9 I think what Mr. Groome asked you is when Mr. Stanisic reported
10 to you about Mr. Karadzic, who you said he had spoken with, and about
11 Mr. Mladic whether you gained the impression that there had been direct
12 communication with him or whether it would have been indirect, that is,
13 through the intermediary of other persons or whether it was direct
15 THE WITNESS: My impression was it was a direct communication.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
17 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. GROOME:
20 Q. And simply to clarify your last answer to my question, you have
21 testified that Mr. Stanisic had a preference for the hostages being
22 released to his custody. Did he express to you why he had that
24 A. Yes. I understood it distinctly in the context in which the
25 hostages were taken in the first place and in the context in which they
1 were seeking to release them subsequently. Briefly, that context had to
2 do with the NATO bombing of Serb positions. It had to do with the stated
3 preference that permits my testimony in Milosevic case, that at that time
4 they had decided that there was a peaceful way of doing things and there
5 was other non-peaceful way of doing things. The preference was for a
6 negotiated end and a peaceful end to this crisis, and more importantly,
7 that they be seen, "they" in this case meaning Stanisic and the interest
8 he represented, which I said earlier today, he had been tasked by
9 Mr. Milosevic to achieve this. So this interest should be seen as the
10 ones that accomplished the peaceful release of the hostages, and for that
11 to be seen, they had to be seen being released through and by their
12 hands. That was the context.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, the second full paragraph on page 2 of this
14 exhibit, your 10th of June, 1995, cable, which is marked for
15 identification as P48 in this trial and was Exhibit 378, tab 18, in the
16 Milosevic case, goes on to describe a request by Mr. Stanisic. Can you
17 please describe in what -- what Mr. Stanisic was requesting from you as
18 summarised in this paragraph:
19 "In this context he asked if the SRSG," the special
20 representative of the Secretary-General, could help him in his next move
21 with Mladic and Karadzic, to be in a position to convince them that they
22 should not worry that NATO air-strikes will follow the release of
24 What precisely was your understanding of what Mr. Stanisic was
25 requesting of you?
1 A. He, as well as the interests he represented wanted an undertaking
2 given that Mr. Akashi would ensure in his role at that time in the
3 procedure that NATO used to execute air-strikes. He, Mr. Akashi, had a
4 specific role in that procedure, and that he would use his specific role,
5 sort of undertake to guarantee them such strikes would not be done by
6 NATO. He had also other specific requests that this capable doesn't go
7 into that he also requested of General Rupert Smith, which I conveyed by
9 Q. Are you able to tell us what those other requests were here
11 A. Yes. Mr. Stanisic had intimated that he needed extra information
12 from General Rupert Smith as to who exactly the remaining hostages were,
13 whether they were formed soldiers or military observers, and where they
14 might be according to Rupert Smith, where he expected they might have
15 been taken by the forces opposed to the release of the hostages so that
16 he would be careful, because, in his own words, he feared they might be
17 harmed even as he sought to have them released and the harm be blamed on
18 him by those other forces. And secondly, he also wanted General
19 Rupert Smith to also give an undertaking that there won't be further
20 retaliation by NATO.
21 Q. Now, you testified further today that the hostage crisis was
22 ultimately resolved when hostages were released in several groups. Were
23 you present for one or more -- on one or more of these occasions when
24 hostages were freed?
25 A. Yes, I do recall meeting the last batch of hostages that had been
1 released by buses on their arrival. I believe it was in Novi Sad where
2 they arrived. I drove there and joined him and other people around as
3 the whole group of hostages had -- that had arrived was gathered in that
5 Q. The transcript records you as saying that you joined him. Who
6 are you referring to when you say you joined him?
7 A. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said joined him. I recall being
8 there and him being there; I mean Stanisic.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in preparation for your testimony here
10 today, did I ask you to review a video related to the release of these
12 A. Yes, you did.
13 Q. Do you recall being asked to look at four clips from 65 ter
14 number 4775 with the following time codes: 11 minutes 46 seconds to 12
15 minutes 40 seconds, 13 minutes 46 seconds to 14 minutes 35 seconds,
16 15 minutes 3 seconds to 15 minutes 41 seconds, and 15 minutes 54 seconds
17 to 17 minutes 25 seconds, a total of approximately four minutes of video
18 coverage related to the release of the hostages?
19 A. Yes, I did review them.
20 Q. The Stanisic Defence has informed me that they will not object to
21 the admission of these clips and the accompanying transcript, so I will
22 simply play them in succession and then I want to ask you a question.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, any words spoken in those clips?
24 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Stanisic gives an interview.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At such a speed that we could expect the
1 interpreters to translate them?
2 MR. GROOME: I believe we have prepared and have given the
3 translators the transcripts of both the B/C/S and the English.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will proceed as usual, that is one of
5 the interpreters checking whether the transcript accurately reflects what
6 is said so as for the other interpreter to have an opportunity that if
7 the speed of speech is such that the live cannot be followed, that the
8 interpretation will be done on the basis of the transcript.
9 Could we start playing the clips.
10 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
11 Mr. Laugel.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 "Journalist: ... the hostages long before next weekend?
14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Journalist: Just a moment -- the
15 hostages long before next weekend?
16 "Translator: Do you expect that other United Nations
17 representatives will be released by next week?
18 "Stanisic: I already said that we hoped that everyone would be
19 released very soon.
20 "Journalist: What was the arrangement, what did the Bosnian
21 Serbs get in exchange for releasing these hostages?
22 "Translator: What will Bosnian Serbs get in exchange for the
23 release of the United Nations members?
24 "Stanisic: I think that we, of course, cannot answer this
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Stanisic: Gentlemen, we are
3 representatives of the government of the Republic of Serbia.
4 "We are here on behalf of our government in the mission of your
5 release from this area."
6 [Video-clip played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Translator: ... that the
8 leadership of Republika Srpska.
9 "Stanisic: There is a positive atmosphere relating to
10 international community.
11 "They are ready for further peaceful solution to the conflict in
12 the former Bosnia-Herzegovina."
13 [Video-clip played]
14 "For these hostages, the ordeal ended with a cost journey to
15 Serbia out of the hands of their Bosnian-Serb captures. All but 14 of
16 the last UN hostages were freed after almost three weeks of confrontation
17 with the UN. To the hostages and their families, Karadzic said he
18 regretted what was done, but blamed --"
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that last one was played by mistake.
20 That is not something the Prosecution is tendering.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Stanisic: Here with us there are
23 26 members of the French and British battalions, and six members, that is
24 to say two members of the Polish battalion, one Swede, a Russian, a
25 Czech, and a Norwegian.
1 "Translator: Now with us we have 26 members of UNPROFOR. It
2 means 16 French, 6 English, 2 Polish, and others.
3 "Stanisic: They will be handed over to their respective commands
4 in Belgrade, same as last time.
5 "Another 15 people have remained. We hope to take them over in
6 the next two or three days.
7 "And as previously stated for technical reasons we were not able
8 to take them over.
9 "We are happy that the entire mission ended successfully.
10 "We have said that it was very complicated both politically and
11 from the security point of view.
12 "Translator: ... the mission was very ... complicated."
13 MR. GROOME:
14 Q. Dr. Kirudja, the four clips that we have just seen, are they all
15 depictions of events surrounding the release of hostages which you have
16 testified to here today?
17 A. Yes. By the first set appearing at night, yes, they are by
18 deduction, not the fact that I witnessed them directly but by the
19 deduction and by content shown. The last one which appears during the
20 day is the one I alluded -- the event I alluded to earlier that occurred
21 and where I did go and see the released hostages around midday or
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, the Prosecution at this time tenders
24 the four excerpts from 65 ter 4775 [sic] as previously described by time
25 codes already on the record. I'm informed by the Stanisic Defence that
1 it has no objection to the admission of these clips. Mr. Domazet
2 informed me that circumstances prevented him from entering into such an
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Agreement or not, Mr. Domazet, any objections,
5 if only from a legal point of view apart from the, which of course is
6 similar to the --
7 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has decided to admit these four clips
11 into evidence.
12 Madam Registrar, they would have number?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibits P49 through Exhibit P43 [sic],
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: They are --
16 THE REGISTRAR: Fifty-three.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They all now have got separate numbers from
18 what I understand, four clips. Or was it your intention to have them as
19 one batch?
20 MR. GROOME: Whichever is easier.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. No problem. If matters -- if --
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P49 then, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps that's easier. Four clips, all under
24 the number P49 are admitted into evidence. If, Mr. Simatovic or
25 Mr. Domazet, if at any later stage there would be reason to object to
1 their admission, the Chamber will consider, on the basis of the reasons
2 then given whether it would be appropriate to reconsider the admission in
3 light of the then raised objections.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just to correct the record those clips
6 were from 65 ter number 4755.
7 Q. Now, Dr. Kirudja, in preparation for your testimony here today,
8 did I ask you to review another video related to the hostage crisis
9 designated 65 ter 713?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recall being asked to look at two clips from 65 ter number
12 713 with the following time codes: 54 minutes 35 seconds to -- and I'm
13 sorry, 34 minutes 54 seconds to 35 minutes 3 seconds, and 35 minutes
14 20 seconds to 35 minutes 33 seconds?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I would ask you to take a look at a still image captured from the
17 excerpts of the video you reviewed yesterday. Do you recognise anyone in
18 the video still?
19 The video still will be shown on Sanction for reasons I will
20 explain in a moment to Your Honours. But if we have access to the
21 Sanction system we should be all able to see it.
22 And my question to you, Dr. Kirudja, is do you recognise anyone
23 in this -- in this photograph?
24 A. Is this as good as it gets on focus?
25 Q. I apologise. The still is not as of high a quality as the video,
1 but if you are able to assist that would be appreciated.
2 A. The focus is unfortunately not as good, and the years are passed
3 by, so I wouldn't want to do that. I can't see clearly these faces.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this is the last area of inquiry I had
5 for Mr. Kirudja. The reason that I'm using a still is that in my
6 discussions with the Stanisic Defence they were concerned that the video
7 had subtitles that included a commentator's upon about this. I was
8 informed that technically we were unable to simply remove the subtitles
9 so it seemed that a still was the way to proceed. May I suggest -- I was
10 later informed that they may be able to produce the redacted version.
11 Could I ask that I conclude my examination. We move to
12 cross-examination, and during in the break I will show both my colleagues
13 the redacted video and see if that is acceptable and whether this could
14 be tendered upon agreement.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do the subtitles give indications as to the presence
16 of persons, or is it just comments? I mean, apparently you're seeking
17 Mr. Kirudja to identify persons on this still. Would the subtitles give
18 a clue to who they are?
19 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour, but it does mention names, and it
20 does give an opinion about the two accused that Mr. Knoops felt was
21 inappropriate to have included on the exhibit.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It mentioned names. Names of those to be seen
23 on the video?
24 MR. GROOME: Yes, without identifying where they are in the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps if you would see whether during the
4 break you could reach any further agreement on a redacted version, and --
5 of course there's a very practical way, I would say a very old-fashioned
6 way of dealing with the matter, that is to switch off the sound and just
7 to cover the bottom part of the video. I know it's very old fashioned,
8 but if you cover the bottom five or seven centimetres of the screen,
9 Mr. Kirudja will neither hear nor will he be able to read on the screen
10 what the commentator tells him. So therefore he would be -- then be
11 deprived from all the information the Stanisic Defence apparently is
12 concerned that would give a lead to the answer.
13 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I believe we have been able to
14 achieve that electronically.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Electronically, yes.
16 MR. GROOME: So, Your Honour, the Prosecution has no further
17 questions at this time of Dr. Kirudja.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
19 Perhaps it would be best, then, to have the break now.
20 Mr. Knoops, could you give us an indication as to how much time
21 you'd need for cross-examination of Mr. Kirudja?
22 MR. KNOOPS: One hour and a half maximum, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: One hour and a half. So that will bring us to the
24 end of the next session, and then we'll see whether there's any further
25 need to re-examine the witness.
1 We'll have a break, and we'll hear from the parties after the
2 break whether this video-clips can be played in such a way that
3 Mr. Kirudja, without being led by the comments will be able to better
4 observe what is on the screen and whether he could mention any names of
5 persons being present, and after that the Stanisic Defence will be the
6 first one to be given an opportunity to cross-examine Mr. Kirudja.
7 We'll resume at 5 minutes past 4.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, before we proceed, I earlier said it was
11 a bit of a messy history of 92 bis, 92 ter statements. The original
12 application which was later corrected, then withdrawn, then reinstated,
13 in Annex A mentioned that the transcripts or statements sought for
14 admission under Rule 92 ter were three statements and the transcript of
15 the Milosevic testimony of 31st of January, 2003; 3rd of February, which
16 was, by the way, the portion you referred to; and the 4th of February,
17 2003. I haven't heard you any more about these statements, three
18 statements, one of the 29th of September, 1999; one of the 1st of
19 October, 2001; and one of the 24th of July, 2002. I have not seen in any
20 of the follow-up documents that you have given up about this, but at the
21 same time I didn't hear anything about it, so I'm a bit confused.
22 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I apologise for that confusion.
23 It is not the Prosecution's intent to rely on the other documents. All
24 of the evidence that we believe relevant at this stage is in the
25 Milosevic transcript, and it's our intention not to burden the Chamber
1 with those other statements. So I recognise that we should have filed a
2 corrigendum to formally withdraw our application with respect to the
3 statements of the 29th of September, 1999, the 1st of October, 2001, and
4 the 24th of July of 2002. If the Chamber grants me leave, would I seek
5 to do that orally now, and the only thing that we seek to introduce
6 through Dr. Kirudja with respect to 92 ter is the Milosevic testimony and
7 the 18 accompanying exhibits.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Leave is granted, Mr. Groome. At the same time if
11 you have told us a couple days before, that would have saved us
12 considerable time in the evening hours reading -- I mean, it's a bit odd
13 that I have to remind you what was on your filings, and of course the
14 Chamber is serious in preparing court hearings. So therefore, it would
15 have been highly appreciated if you would have done this on your own
16 initiative and in due time. Please proceed.
17 MR. GROOME: I apologise again for that, Your Honour.
18 Your Honour, just a technical matter with respect to the naming
19 of the 18 accompanying exhibits. They are now designated as P48 for
20 identification. May I suggest to the Chamber that the 18 exhibits --
21 that this may cause some confusion, and I'm not entirely sure what the
22 Chamber's convention is with such cases, but it may be helpful to
23 designate them P48.1 through .18. I think it would be easier to refer to
24 them in closing submissions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is -- Madam Registrar has prepared a
1 table in which the sequential numbering, although in the other case, of
2 course, still 378, but then with a new number, but that we follow the
3 same split-up, not -- to make it all sub-numbers of P48.
4 Madam Registrar, that would be then ...
5 THE REGISTRAR: Those exhibits will be numbered P48.1 through
6 P48.18, all marked for identification, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me -- one second, please.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The related transcripts have now received
10 numbers P48.1 up to and including P48.18.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: P47 and P48.1 up to and including P48.18 are
13 admitted into evidence with the same proviso as I earlier said in
14 relation to the Simatovic Defence.
15 Mr. Groome, has the -- have the subtitles been removed?
16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour they have, and Mr. Knoops has had
17 an opportunity to review them over the break and still agrees that -- to
18 their admission. But if I may take a few seconds and show them to
19 Mr. Kirudja.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. GROOME:
22 Q. Now, Mr. Kirudja, I'm going to show again the video-clips that
23 you saw yesterday. With respect to the first one, I'm going to ask you
24 to focus on the person speaking in the video, and if you recognise that
25 person would you tell us who it is.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Did you recognise the person standing under the umbrella
5 A. The video opens with one face, followed by a second. The second
6 face, I believe that is Jovica Stanisic.
7 Q. Now, I'd ask you to take a look at another portion of that video,
8 and I ask you to focus on the last face or the last person that we see
9 just before the video concludes.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 THE WITNESS: The last face, I believe, is that of
12 Jovica Stanisic.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would at this time tender these two
14 short excerpts from 65 ter 713 taken from the 35th minute of that
15 exhibit. So the portions that I'm seeking to introduce from that exhibit
16 are 34 minutes 54 seconds to 35 minutes 3 seconds, and 35 minutes 20
17 seconds to 35 minutes 33 seconds.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against admission?
19 MR. KNOOPS: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Domazet.
21 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: This will become Exhibit P50, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: These two video-clips, P50, are admitted into
1 Could I have a look at the first video again so that I fully
2 understand the testimony.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. GROOME: Do Your Honours wish to see it again?
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, I don't want to see it again, it's just that --
6 yes. Your initial question didn't mention the umbrella, because several
7 people were speaking I was just wondering whether there was only one
8 person under an umbrella, but there was only one person under that
9 umbrella speaking. The evidence is clear to me now.
10 Please, these were your questions?
11 MR. GROOME: Yes, sir. I have no further questions.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kirudja, we are at a point that you will be
13 cross-examined. The first one who will cross-examine you is Mr. Knoops.
14 Mr. Knoops is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
15 Mr. Knoops, please proceed.
16 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Knoops:
18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kirudja.
19 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honours, in light of the announcement of the
20 Prosecution that it does not want to tender those three statements, that
21 will limit my cross-examination in terms of time.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so you wasted some time on it as well then, I
23 take it.
24 MR. KNOOPS: We prepared three statements, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, to say that if they're not tendered into
1 evidence you pay a different kind of attention to it, I take it, that's
2 at least my experience. Please proceed.
3 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Dr. Kirudja, good afternoon. It's my understanding that before
5 the hostage crisis you never met Mr. Stanisic; is that correct?
6 A. You mean the entire crisis or just the series of meetings,
7 because we're talking about a crisis that spanned a period of time and a
8 sequence of releases. If that's what you're asking me, no, I never met
9 Stanisic for any other purposes except for the -- the release of these --
10 these hostages.
11 Q. And, sir, it's correct that you met him only in his office?
12 A. I believe, yes. I'm not -- it's a long time. I remember mostly
13 meeting in his office. I -- if -- and I remember meeting him more --
14 about three or four times. So I can't say every one of them was in the
15 office, but I tend to believe it was in his office for most of the time.
16 Q. Sir, could you recollect approximately how long these meetings
17 lasted with Mr. Stanisic in his office?
18 A. The only basis Your Honour can use to estimate how long the
19 meetings took would be the length of, for example, the cable submitted
20 by -- by counsel for Prosecution. It took that long to get the text that
21 is in the cable, to listen and put together that. So I would say a
22 couple -- an hour or two for each of the meeting to get that substance
23 come out as a result of that meeting.
24 Q. And, sir, the contents of those meetings were purely about how to
25 solve the hostage events?
1 A. I believe, yes.
2 Q. During the course of the events did Mr. Stanisic tell you
3 anything about his own position within his government at that time?
4 A. In general or with respect to the subject that we were
6 Q. With respect to the subject matter of the discussion, sir.
7 A. Yes. I believe the entire cable speaks to that.
8 Q. Did he say anything about his own position within the government
9 beyond the context of the hostage crisis?
10 A. I don't recall anything beyond the subject we were discussing.
11 Q. Do you have any direct knowledge on the whereabouts of his
12 service during the time?
13 A. Whereabouts?
14 Q. Yeah, about his service, who he was working for.
15 A. Yes. I was aware that his charge, if I can generalise it, was
16 responsibility for the security apparatus.
17 Q. Sir, you were, during the examination-in-chief by my learned
18 friend Mr. Groome, confronted with your testimony in the
19 Slobodan Milosevic case, and the Prosecution confronted you with a
20 portion of the Milosevic testimony. It was the portion that you had a
21 strong understanding that Mr. Stanisic, during the hostage crisis, had
22 forces in the region.
23 Now, during the cross-examination in that case by Mr. Milosevic,
24 if you can recall that - and that's for Your Honours page 15586, the
25 fifth till the ninth sentence from above, line 5 till 9 - you say, I
1 quote -- I'll start quoting from line 3:
2 "The question put to me was -- it was my understanding that he
3 was taking forces with me in the announced journey that he was going
4 inside Bosnia to do -- to help in that release. My response yesterday
5 was it was my understanding he was going to meet him there already.
6 That's how I characterised it, not that he had forces, not in the
7 characterisation you made. I made that it was my understanding that he
8 was going to meet already on location operatives loyal to him to secure
9 those hostages."
10 Can you recall giving that answer in the Milosevic trial during
11 cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So is it correct that it was your understanding that when using
14 the word "forces," Mr. Stanisic referred to his operatives in the field?
15 A. I don't distinguish too much the difference between the
16 operatives and forces in the context I was speaking. They were the
17 contacts he was going to make. They are on the ground. We are talking
18 about hostages being held. There can't be too many meanings to meeting
19 forces or operatives for the purposes of obtaining the release of people
20 being held by force. The distinction is minor.
21 Q. Sir, do you agree that the reference to operatives could include
22 intelligence operatives in the ground -- on the ground?
23 A. Yes, they could.
24 Q. Did Mr. Stanisic any moment indicate how many operatives he was
25 referring to?
1 A. Not in numbers.
2 Q. What is your understanding of the wording "operatives who were
3 loyal to him"? In other words, is it correct to say that there were a
4 lot of individuals who were not loyal to him? Is that a correct
5 conclusion to be deduced from the answer?
6 A. Yes, it is generally a correct interpretation of my answer that
7 in this context some didn't want the hostages released, and he, meaning
8 Stanisic and the interests he represented, wanted them released.
9 Q. Was it your understanding, sir, that those who were against the
10 release of the hostages were also within the government of Serbia at that
12 A. I wouldn't say so given where the matter was taking place. The
13 hostages were in what was Bosnia and Herzegovina, and what you called the
14 government of Serbia was in the territory that Milosevic then called
15 himself as president of. He wasn't saying he was the president of Bosnia
16 and Herzegovina. So the meaning of what you call government of Serbia in
17 this case wouldn't really be applicable to where the incident of
18 hostage-taking took place.
19 Q. Sir, do you have an explanation why Mr. Stanisic, according to
20 your testimony, had to discreetly approach his operatives in the field?
21 What was the reason for the fact that he had to do it in a way which was
22 apparently discreet, and why couldn't he do it in an open way?
23 A. A good part of the answer to that is contained in the cables that
24 the counsel for Prosecution adduced to the Court. It was expressly
25 stated by Mr. Stanisic that he was apprehensive, that harm could befall
1 the remaining hostages at the hands of the groups opposed to their
2 release, and subsequently he and the interests he represented could be
3 blamed incorrectly for it. It was therefore of utmost interest to him,
4 he said, to proceed discreetly, because knowledge that -- of --
5 telegraphed knowledge that he was going to come would make -- would make
6 the work of those opposed to him easier, and that was his own
8 Q. Sir, did Mr. Stanisic at any moment express fear for his own life
9 to you?
10 A. Yes, very openly.
11 Q. In what words? Can you recall what he say to you?
12 A. Roughly, he spoke personally and said, I'm taking my life at risk
13 going there, but go I must and do it personally.
14 Q. What, according to your knowledge or interpretation of the
15 situation, did he mean with the word "must"?
16 A. I understood it simply to mean the task at hand, he couldn't get
17 it accomplished other than his direct involvement.
18 Q. Would you say, sir, that the word "must" came from his own
19 personal feeling that he had an obligation to cooperate in releasing the
20 hostages other than being forced to do it by somebody above him?
21 A. I wouldn't be able to make that determination.
22 Q. Did at any moment Mr. Stanisic express fear for Mr. Mladic?
23 A. Counsel, there my recollection is not as fresh about that.
24 Q. Did Mr. Stanisic at any moment indicate fear for the lives of
25 his -- his family?
1 A. Not really. He expressed fear that his life and that of his own
2 operatives. He seemed to consider them, too, would be at risk in that
3 particular exercise.
4 Q. Did he at any moment express his concerns for the -- his personal
5 concerns for the lives of the hostages, the soldiers in question?
6 A. Yes, indeed.
7 Q. And can you recollect how this expression or this fear was -- was
8 conveyed to you by him?
9 A. By his request that I should ask General Rupert Smith to provide
10 him with more precise details so he could trace and possibly identify
11 these hostages if they were not readily identifiable given where they
12 were being held.
13 Q. Sir, during the course of the meetings with Mr. Stanisic, your
14 encounters with him, did you get the impression that Mr. Stanisic himself
15 was determined to solve, apart from the hostage crisis, the Balkan crisis
16 in general?
17 A. Actually, my sense of it was in many general characterisation of
18 the task and the context in which he was going to do this, he spoke in
19 terms very reminiscent of the same terms being used by Milosevic himself,
20 terms like, "We need a peaceful outcome to this crisis." Terms like, "We
21 need to work with the international community." Terms that were very
22 much reminiscent of the same I was hearing from Milosevic himself, and
23 therefore when I heard those terms, rather than conclude they were
24 personal to Stanisic, I simply interpreted them to be a faithful
25 execution of the task given to him by -- obviously the word "boss" would
1 be appropriate, who was Mr. Milosevic, tasking him to reach that end that
2 he sought.
3 Q. Dr. Kirudja, are you familiar with the -- the Contact Group who
4 was in operation in those days?
5 A. Yes, I am familiar with the Contact Group, with the understanding
6 that the term "Contact Group" varied in time from a Contact Group that
7 was dealing with the same problem on the Croatian territory as well as
8 the Contact Group dealing with the larger political problem in the
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina itself. Yes, I'm familiar, but it's not very, very
10 exact group identifiable for a purpose.
11 Q. Is it fair to say, Dr. Kirudja, that the participants in the
12 Contact Group were United States in those days, Great Britain, France,
13 and Russian Federation?
14 A. I believe you have to throw in Germany.
15 Q. So we have five states participating.
16 A. There are six. I think there were six, but I could be wrong
18 Q. Can you recollect, sir, whether the Contact Group was involved
19 itself in the hostage crisis, in trying to find a solution for the
20 hostage crisis?
21 A. At that particular time when we are discussing this matter
22 involving Stanisic, which places me in Belgrade, the activities of the
23 Contact Group were mostly taking place in Zagreb, and there I wouldn't be
24 the one involved because that's the headquarters of my own boss, at that
25 time, Mr. Akashi.
1 Q. Dr. Kirudja, were you familiar in those days that Mr. Stanisic
2 had direct contacts with members of the Contact Group in order to achieve
3 a solution for the hostage crisis?
4 A. That wouldn't be surprising, because it was a very large
5 international problem.
6 Q. You say, "It wouldn't surprise me --"
7 A. That he was involved in their contact. By saying it wouldn't
8 surprise me, I mean I didn't know that directly from him.
9 Q. Were you familiar with this information indirectly, either at
10 that time or later after your assignment terminated there?
11 A. No. I would be familiar with that as part of my job, even when I
12 was in Belgrade before the crisis and after.
13 Q. So you -- you can acknowledge that through other sources you were
14 familiar that Mr. Stanisic was in contact with the Contact Group or
15 members of the Contract Group?
16 A. That is stretching my pointed a bit far. Specifically I said I
17 didn't know what Stanisic knew about the Contact Group, but it wouldn't
18 surprise me when you say he was involved.
19 Q. If I put it to you that he was in close contact with the -- both
20 United States and British intelligence, what would you comment on that?
21 A. Again, it's not a surprise. You asked me earlier what I thought
22 his job was, and I told you it was in the -- it was in charge of security
24 Q. Did the United Nations at any moment receive information either
25 during the hostage crisis or after from members of the Contact Group that
1 Mr. Stanisic was, himself, instrumental in the release of the hostage
2 crisis -- the solution of the hostage crisis?
3 A. I'm not sure of the exact nature of this question.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think from -- let's see whether I understood the
6 Mr. Kirudja, you told us your communications with Mr. Stanisic in
7 relation to the resolution of the -- of the hostage crisis. Now, from
8 what I understand, Mr. Knoops is now asking whether you received, either
9 during or after the crisis, any information from members of the
10 Contact Group about the instrumental role Mr. Stanisic may have played.
11 So apart from your own knowledge, whether you received any further
12 information from members of the Contact Group about his role in resolving
13 the hostage crisis.
14 THE WITNESS: No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Have I understood the question now? Yes. Please
17 MR. KNOOPS:
18 Q. Dr. Kirudja, is it fair to say that during the course of the
19 meetings with Mr. Stanisic you had, he was perceived by you as somebody
20 with no extremist ideas?
21 A. I would agree. He stuck pretty much straightforward to the
22 subject at hand. I got no sense he even attempted to take it beyond the
23 task at hand by way of politics.
24 Q. You say -- you refer to the task at hand by politics --
25 A. No, I said beyond --
1 Q. Beyond the task of politics.
2 A. Hmm.
3 Q. Is it your experience with him that he was inclined to stay away
4 from politics?
5 A. Pretty much so. He didn't digress into politics at all.
6 Q. Did he, in that way, differentiate from other people you met in
7 Belgrade within the government?
8 A. In a way, yes, but not extraordinary. You're right. A lot of
9 people at that time were given to politicisation of issues, but there
10 were others who didn't, even if they were in the kind of position
11 Stanisic was. But that to me only conjured the picture of people in
12 security circles, military and otherwise, who were often very guarded in
13 the use and wouldn't digress into politics.
14 Q. Did Mr. Stanisic in this context express himself about his
15 position, his sensitive position within the government, and did he
16 express in specific whether he was afraid to be confronted with
17 aggression from people within his own government?
18 A. Only by deduction could I get that sense, and I did, that he was
19 being extremely careful on this matter in particular. And I underscore
20 the fact that what he was asking for from me -- from Mr. Akashi through
21 me, that is a guarantee of no further retaliatory actions to come from
22 NATO. He asked for that severally. I understood that to be part of what
23 he felt would make his nation more secure and acceptable, because the
24 issue were of NATO striking Serbian positions was a polarising issue.
25 Q. Did Mr. Stanisic tell you anything about his own -- his own
1 history prior to 1992, because I learned from this testimony that you
2 came in 1992 to Belgrade. Did he say anything about his professional
3 career prior to 1992?
4 A. No.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, I apologise to intervene, but I have
6 some difficulties in understanding the answer of Mr. Kirudja in relation
7 to the question you put to him about the aggression from people within
8 his own government.
9 Mr. Kirudja, I understood the question of Mr. Knoops to be
10 whether Mr. Stanisic ever expressed, especially in view of his sensitive
11 position within the government, whether he expressed any fear to be the
12 subject of aggression from within his own government circles, whereas
13 your answer appears to focus primarily on aggression against Serbia by
14 NATO and concerns about that.
15 Now, I'm trying to fully understand whether what you told us was
16 on the basis of an accurate understanding of what Mr. Knoops asked you.
17 First of all, Mr. Knoops, did I summarise the question in an
18 accurate way?
19 MR. KNOOPS: You did, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kirudja, have I misunderstood you if your answer
21 was very much focusing on consequences for Serbia and aggression against
22 Serbia rather than fear expressed by Mr. Stanisic for becoming a subject
23 of aggression within his own government circles?
24 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, first my apology for causing you some
25 misunderstanding, but I do think you have summarised accurately part of
1 what I intended to convey. The part you have summarised, that fear in
2 general from the threat of NATO strike, that's correct. I meant in my
3 earlier answer to tell you, Your Honour, he did, by deduction, imply the
4 fear that he felt in undertaking this mission. Not because he said it
5 was coming directly from his government, as the question was put. He
6 expressed it as an inherent fear based on that threat that members not
7 only within his government, some members within his government and others
8 in this community or group that, "if I don't," he seemed to say, "If I
9 don't tell them I have obtained an undertaking from the UN that there
10 won't be retaliatory strikes and I go there asking for release of these
11 hostages, don't you see," he hinted, "I could very much lose some of them
12 as well as my own security." That's what I intended to say.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's clear to me now.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Knoops.
15 MR. KNOOPS:
16 Q. In line with the question or your explanation to Dr. Kirudja, did
17 Mr. Stanisic at any moment express fear for his own position within his
19 A. That one, no.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you. No further questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Knoops.
22 Mr. Domazet, and I'm also addressing you, Mr. Simatovic, if I
23 understood you well, you feel that you're not in a position to
24 cross-examine Mr. Kirudja. Is that correctly understood?
25 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber, at this moment, does not judge upon the
2 question whether the opportunity given to you now to cross-examine
3 Mr. Kirudja, whether for good reasons you didn't use it or for reasons
4 which would not justify to remain passive at this moment. As I said
5 before, we'll further consider that matter in view of -- of what we'll
7 Mr. Kirudja, this is a matter you're not familiar with and you
8 shouldn't bother about, but it is a procedural aspect at this moment
9 which you'll not be able to understand without any further information
10 which I'm not going to give you, because the Chamber will have to deal
11 with it.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, the Chamber has no questions for
14 Mr. Kirudja. Is there any need to re-examine Mr. Kirudja?
15 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Groome --
17 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, I thought I heard my name.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I express my feelings of thanks to you, and
19 it's of course good that you get up immediately. No, no, no. It's --
20 Mr. Kirudja, I nevertheless will express a few things to you. We
21 are in a situation where the Simatovic Defence has expressed that it
22 finds itself not in a position at this moment to meaningfully
23 cross-examine you for reasons unfamiliar to you and familiar to the
24 Chamber. The Chamber will further consider that matter and whether this
25 is a lost opportunity for the Simatovic Defence, or whether there were
1 reasons for them to refrain from cross-examining you at this moment,
2 which also means that the possibility, and I'm emphasising "possibility,"
3 is still open that in the future this Chamber might decide that the
4 proceedings would not be fair to Mr. Simatovic if no additional
5 opportunity would be given to him to cross-examine you. That's uncertain
6 moment, but it causes me - and that's a bit unusual for someone who is
7 excused at that very moment - it causes me to ask you not to speak with
8 anyone about the testimony you've given, because there still is a
9 possibility that you would be further cross-examined on the
10 examination-in-chief and that further questions may be put to you in
11 relation to the cross-examination already conducted by Mr. Knoops. So
12 therefore, that might take some time. That could be weeks or even
13 months. I instruct you not it speak to anyone during this longer period
14 of time about your testimony.
15 Mr. Groome.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I just raise a concern that I'm
17 sure some of my colleagues on the Karadzic case and the Mico Stanisic
18 case are probably thinking about now. Could I ask if the Office of the
19 Prosecutor takes appropriate measures that no one on the Jovica Stanisic
20 case or Franko Simatovic case has any contact with Mr. Kirudja, that
21 members in unrelated cases may be able to contact him, to interview him
22 in matters unrelated to this case?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You want to create a Chinese wall --
24 MR. GROOME: As it were, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- between you and your colleagues. The
1 circumstances are exceptional. The need to speak with Mr. Kirudja within
2 the next few days does not arise, I take it, and the Chamber understood,
3 Mr. Kirudja, that you're leaving Holland rather soon. The Chamber will
4 give further instructions to you as far as this aspect is concerned,
5 perhaps also after having heard any submissions by the Defence. Well,
6 say within the next 14 days.
7 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Kirudja, then we've come to the
9 point where I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague
10 and for answering questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench.
11 And I usually wish witnesses a safe trip home again. I don't know
12 whether you're heading for home or not, but at least wherever you go,
13 arrive there safely.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Kirudja out
16 of the courtroom.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Earlier today I explained to you, Mr. Simatovic, and
19 to you, Mr. Domazet, that an ex parte hearing would need some
20 preparation, which was not easily done just in the middle of an ordinary
21 court session. Since we've now done, as matters stand now, with the
22 testimony of Mr. Kirudja, the Chamber would prefer to already have these
23 ex parte hearing today. For that purpose we would need a bit of a longer
24 break, that is, approximately a half an hour, and then we would still
25 have available a little bit over one hour for this ex parte hearing.
1 The Chamber has requested OLAD to be stand by to join in that
2 hearing, which would mean that that hearing would take place in the
3 absence of the Stanisic Defence and in the absence of the Prosecution,
4 and it would be a hearing in closed session.
5 Then for those parties who will not participate in the ex parte
6 hearing, we will resume tomorrow at a quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon
7 for you, and for Mr. Domazet and Mr. Simatovic, an ex parte will be held
8 in 30 minutes from now in this same courtroom.
9 Any procedural issues to be raised at this moment?
10 Mr. Groome.
11 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: None.
13 Mr. Knoops? None. Then we adjourn.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.05 p.m.,
15 to be followed by an Ex Parte Hearing. The hearing
16 will reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day
17 of August, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.