1 Thursday, 27 August 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Stanisic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
7 you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-03-69-T, the
10 Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 We'll start, I would say as usual, to establish the situation as
13 far as Mr. Stanisic is concerned. Mr. Stanisic is not in court. We
14 received a form under the heading "Jovica Stanisic non-attendance in
15 court," dated the 27th of August, that is today, in which we find that
16 Mr. Stanisic is not willing to waive his right to attend court in person,
17 that he was informed that he may participate in the proceedings via
18 video-conference link, and has expressed as his wish that he does not
19 want to use that facility. I refer to the form itself.
20 Then we further have a form, "Absence from court due to illness,"
21 dated 27th of August, 2009, signed by Mr. Stanisic, in which he confirms
22 that he's unable to attend court proceedings and that he has discussed
23 the matter with counsel. And a third box has not been ticked, and that
24 is a declaration of waiver, which I would say it's logical that he has
25 not ticked that box.
1 Then we have a form in which the principal officer states that he
2 had received at 9.55, and the 27th of August, the form from the detainee.
3 It also contains the UNDU medical service statements by the reporting
4 medical officer, Mr. Eekhof, in which he has ticked answers to the first,
5 the second, and the fourth and the fifth question.
6 And finally, we received a brief report concerning the health
7 condition of Mr. Stanisic, Jovica, dated 27th of August, signed by
8 Mr. Eekhof, reporting medical officer.
9 It appears that from the report that the situation has not
10 changed since yesterday, and the Chamber was informed that the parties
11 would no questions for Dr. Eekhof. Then ...
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decides to proceed in the absence of
14 Mr. Stanisic.
15 I'd like to briefly raise a matter which is -- yes,
16 Mr. Simatovic. Is there anything you'd like to say?
17 THE ACCUSED SIMATOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the -- I
18 would like the Trial Chamber to allow me to address the Trial Chamber.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may do so, but after I have said a few
20 words in relation to the matters that had been the subject of the
21 hearing, the ex parte hearing, yesterday.
22 The Chamber was informed that a new proposal has been made by
23 OLAD. The Chamber does not further comment on that. I think the views
24 of the Chamber have been expressed sufficiently yesterday, but I would
25 like to add one or two points to that.
1 If a compromise could be reached as proposed by OLAD, the Chamber
2 has in mind that it will consider to further facilitate such a solution
3 by reducing the number of hearings even a bit further than the two days a
4 week which we have on a regular basis now.
5 The second matter the Chamber will consider is that if such a
6 solution would be adopted, that it will encourage further discussions
7 between the parties so as to identify those portions of the evidence for
8 which there would be less difficulties to cross-examine or to test that
9 evidence, and then to invite the Prosecution to focus primarily on those
10 portions of the evidence rather than to present evidence for which it
11 takes more time to prepare for cross-examination or for otherwise testing
12 that evidence. This is what the Chamber would like to add as a
13 supplementary effort to favour a quick adoption of a solution of the
14 present situation.
15 And finally, and I'm now addressing the Prosecution, the Chamber
16 is seriously considering already for that reason, in order also to be
17 able to focus entirely on the solution of the problem of your
18 representation, Mr. Simatovic, to cancel the next week's hearings. I'm
19 dealing with this in the beginning of this session, because the Chamber
20 was informed that the next witness is about to start travelling.
21 Therefore, I'm not seeking any comments at this moment. Of course you
22 may address the Chamber, Mr. Simatovic, in a second, and you're now aware
23 of what the Chamber offers as its assistance, but before we do so,
24 Mr. Groome, I take it that if we would not hear any evidence next week
25 that you'd have to take immediate action.
1 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I'm informed that 3.30 today is
2 the latest that we can inform Victims and Witnesses Unit to cancel travel
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any comments on not sitting next week?
5 Because we have an urgent problem and that has to be resolved and that
6 takes some time.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, not having been a party to the hearings
8 yesterday, we trust that the Chamber in its discretion and its judgement
9 will take the best course of action.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It may not come as a surprise that this Chamber does
11 not easily give up court time.
12 Mr. Knoops, any comments on non-sitting days for next week?
13 MR. KNOOPS: No, thank you, Your Honour. We leave it certainly
14 in the hands of the Chamber.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
16 Mr. Simatovic, we'll first hear from you, and then the Chamber
17 will decide on whether or not at least next week's sessions will be
18 cancelled. This is not any indication on how we will proceed, although
19 it may be clear to you that the Chamber will seriously consider that if
20 an adoption -- if a solution will be adopted, that to facilitate that by
21 reducing, at least temporarily, the hearings in this case.
22 Mr. Simatovic, you asked permission to address the Chamber. You
23 may proceed. It's uncomfortable for you to stand, and it's a difficult
24 problem with the microphone, so please remain seated so that you can
25 concentrate on what you want to say.
1 THE ACCUSED SIMATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
2 I have prepared a written submission that I can submit to you, in
3 English. I've tried to summarise and give a very long and hard thought
4 to the situation that I am facing at the moment.
5 First of all, the fact is that my lead counsel, Zoran Jovanovic,
6 died on the 2nd of August, and that since then I've not had a lead
7 counsel. Mr. Domazet is not my lead counsel. He is co-counsel, and I've
8 never had any communication with him with regard to my defence strategy.
9 Mr. Domazet, after the death of my lead counsel, did not arrive
10 in Belgrade
11 knew that we were not prepared for trial, he informed the OTP that he was
12 prepared to cross-examine the witnesses without informing me first.
13 Effectively, I was -- felt deceived, in addition to the fact that
14 the late lead counsel asked for Mr. Domazet to be replaced by a younger
15 and more active gentleman, Mr. Petrovic. The Registry also deceived me,
16 because I listened to them when I stayed in Belgrade. They asked me to
17 urgently decide who my lead counsel would be. I gave them my decision as
18 soon as I decided, and they were very satisfied with my choice, and they
19 told me that the fact that he was partially tied with the appeals
20 proceedings would not be a problem.
21 Yesterday, the same service stated that the counsel that I chose
22 was not acceptable. I really would like to have counsel appointed.
23 Second of all, I would like to be given an objectively long enough time
24 to prepare my defence. It is impossible for me to continue this trial,
25 because I did not work with Mr. Domazet with regard to the
1 cross-examination of the witnesses. Just like me, he doesn't have any
2 access to the paperwork that the late Zoran Jovanovic, my lead counsel,
3 and I prepared for my defence, and in that sense I would like the
4 proceedings to be delayed until I have a full access to my defence.
5 If the proceedings are not delayed and if I can't -- cannot be
6 given the time to prepare, then I will be forced to represent myself.
7 The Trial Chamber can ask for the security services of Serbia who have
8 been listening in to my telephone conversations to provide them with the
9 recording of my conversations with my late counsel which can confirm
10 everything that I've said so far.
11 Your Honours, this is my submission, which I also have in
12 English, as I've already told you, and I can submit it in writing. This
13 submission can be provided to you immediately. Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Simatovic, of course everything has been
15 translated to us into English and we have it on the record, so therefore
16 there's no need at the same time -- I would not prevent you from having
17 it filed, but then you have to seek the assistance of Mr. Domazet on how
18 to do that because that has to be processed through the Registry.
19 As far as the solution you hinted at of self-representation, I
20 would strongly advise you to thoroughly, perhaps with the assistance of
21 Mr. Domazet or the assistance of candidates for becoming counsel, lead
22 counsel, co-counsel, to carefully study the case law of this Tribunal and
23 the case law on which the Tribunal's jurisprudence relies in this
24 respect. I'm not taking that any further.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Simatovic, has OLAD you -- informed you about
2 the new proposal? I'm not going to deal with it, because I don't think
3 that's appropriate, but OLAD has formulated a new proposal, and I just
4 added what the Chamber could do in order to facilitate that it works out
5 well. Are you at least willing to look at it and to consider it?
6 THE ACCUSED SIMATOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think the wisest thing to do is that we'll
8 continue today with today's witness. We cancel, to start with, next
9 week's hearings. So there'll be no hearings next week, Mr. Simatovic,
10 which gives you additional opportunity to further discuss and further
11 discuss with everyone involved the proposal that has been -- is on the
12 mind of OLAD, and then the Chamber will take care that it will be
13 informed about any development in that respect.
14 Mr. Groome, 3.30. It's before 3.30.
15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much for that, and
16 I will convey that to the people who will make the necessary
17 cancellations. I just want to reiterate also the Prosecution's offer to
18 rescheduling witnesses. I have not been made any specific request from
19 either Mr. Simatovic or Mr. Domazet, but if that somehow assists in this
20 problem the Prosecution stands ready to do that as well.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine that, for example, focusing on
22 crime base witnesses as they're often called and then perhaps even
23 certain areas would make it easy for new counsel to prepare for what seem
24 to be the bigger issues in this case.
25 MR. GROOME: That's precisely the thing I'm thinking of,
1 Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's on the record.
3 Yes, Mr. Knoops.
4 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, on this point I rise on my feet to
5 propose to the Court the following: If the Court will proceed today with
6 Witness B-215, there would be two problems. First of all, the hearing of
7 this witness would not be terminated this week. That's maybe the least
8 problem for -- for the Court to deal with, but it's not to be expected
9 that this witness can be finalised today.
10 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need for cross?
11 MR. KNOOPS: I would need three hours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Three hours.
13 MR. KNOOPS: And I learned from the Prosecution that they
14 probably need two hours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, is that -- we usually have four and a
16 half effective hours a day. That's -- we lost -- well, we lost, we used
17 half an hour. Is there anyway to finish the witness, to shorten the time
18 for chief?
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, Mr. Hoffmann informs me that it largely
21 depends upon whether there was some proofing notes that were taken that
22 contain considerable amount of additional evidence, that if there is
23 agreement that they be admitted under 92 ter and cross-examined by
24 Mr. Knoops, that that would considerably shorten the time. But if that's
25 not agreed and we have to lead that evidence live, that it may be
1 impractical to think that we'd be able to finish the witness in the time
2 remaining today.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you make the application, the 92 ter, we'll
4 hear from Mr. Knoops, but if he wants to express himself already that if
5 the proper attestations are made in relation to these proofing notes,
6 whether he would oppose admission into evidence of the proofing notes as
7 a written statement under Rule 92 ter.
8 MR. KNOOPS: Well, Your Honour, this is exactly the second
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. KNOOPS: The Defence was served the 25th of August the
12 proofing notes comprising seven pages which contain totally new statement
13 of the witness. In the proofing notes it says that the following
14 substantive information was provided by B-215, which was not recorded in
15 previous accounts.
16 The Defence has carefully studied the proofing notes of 25th
17 August, and we detected on 20 essential points that this statement or the
18 proofing notes amount to a totally new statement acts -- Article --
19 Rule 66 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. If the Court wishes, we
20 have prepared a comparison which clearly shows that only on the 25th of
21 August the Defence was served with a totally new statement which could
22 not in all reasonableness be investigated by the Defence. And not only
23 with respect to the person of Mr. Stanisic but also with respect to the
24 person of Mr. Simatovic. Witness B-215 provides on the 25th of August
25 totally new evidence on the two accused persons which was never disclosed
1 before by the Prosecution or by the witness. The proofing notes
2 acknowledge, indeed, that this was not recorded in previous accounts.
3 Not only the Defence of Mr. Stanisic will be seriously hampered if the
4 Court would continue, even in chief, with this witness today without
5 giving the Defence a fair opportunity to investigate these 20 new points,
6 but I think in light of the submissions of Mr. Simatovic today, it cannot
7 be the case that this witness can provide evidence in chief on totally
8 new aspects which were never disclosed before while Mr. Simatovic is not
9 represented, according to his choice, but apart from that --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, would you -- whether Mr. Simatovic is
11 represented by counsel of choice or not, Mr. Simatovic is represented at
12 this moment. So there's no need to comment on his situation.
13 Mr. Simatovic has addressed us on this matter, and therefore we'd like to
14 hear about Mr. Stanisic's position but not to include other accused.
15 MR. KNOOPS: Therefore, we submit that the evidence in chief of
16 this witness is adjourned till the Defence is given a proper opportunity
17 to investigate the new proofing notes which are intended to enter into
18 chief or at least will be addressed during the examination-in-chief. And
19 again, we have the documents which clearly shows on what essential points
20 this witness comes with a totally new statement, which qualifies as a
21 statement under Rule 66 which was never disclosed before.
22 These are not just proofing notes. This is a clearly new
23 statement. Not only on the DB as an organisation but also on the two
24 accused in specific. The Witness B-215 mentions a specific certain new
25 meetings, alleged meetings with the two accused persons which were never
1 disclosed. The Defence did not have a fair opportunity to investigate
2 these elements of this new statement. Therefore, we strongly object that
3 the Court continues with the examination-in-chief of Witness 215 until
4 Defence is given a proper and fair opportunity to investigate this new
6 So the first argument with respect to the hours allotted to the
7 Prosecution, Defence, therefore I said it may be minor to the second
8 point, and my answer is directly, Your Honours, that the Defence will not
9 agree with admission under Rule 92 ter of these new proofing notes simply
10 because as said these are not simply proofing notes. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask Mr. Hoffmann to deal with the
13 particulars as he has worked with this witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
15 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honour, very briefly, we do acknowledge that
16 there is essential new evidence in these notes, that -- we do agree that
17 it more or less a new statement which is signed by the witness. We did
18 not have an earlier opportunity, unfortunately, to ask the witness those
19 questions prior to him coming to testify here. However, I think given
20 the fact that the witness is already here, ready to testify, it would
21 certainly be an option to lead the evidence in chief, give the -- at
22 least the Stanisic Defence an opportunity to cross-examine the witness
23 today, and if there is any request to recall him anyway for the Simatovic
24 Defence, I think we would have no objection at the time then if the
25 Stanisic Defence would request additional time for additional
1 cross-examination when and if the witness would have to be recalled.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You make more or less the additional opportunity for
3 Mr. Stanisic to cross-examine the witness dependent on whether we would
4 recall the witness for Mr. Simatovic, but the primary argument is this is
5 a new statement. We have not have had sufficient time to prepare for
6 cross-examination, so therefore to make that dependent on the situation
7 of Mr. Simatovic seems to be a bit odd.
8 MR. HOFFMANN: You're absolutely right. That was not my
9 intention to make it dependent on that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. Although you said if there's any request to
11 recall him anyway for the Simatovic Defence, I think we would have no
12 objection at the time if the Stanisic Defence ... so that is what I
13 responded to. But that is misunderstood. You'd say recalling him for
14 further cross-examination would not meet any objection from the
15 Prosecution side.
16 Mr. Knoops, in what way -- let's just for argument's sake assume
17 that we'd hear the evidence in chief and perhaps some cross-examination,
18 but let's wait with that for the time being. In what way would you be
19 prejudiced or would Mr. Stanisic Defence be prejudiced if we would hear
20 that evidence in chief and would give you an opportunity to perhaps at a
21 later stage cross-examine the witness? I mean, even if you were to fully
22 investigate it, the new statement, would that change anything in the
23 presentation of the evidence in chief?
24 MR. KNOOPS: It would, Your Honour. It would be an essential
25 difference with the -- with having had the opportunity to thoroughly
1 investigate, because it would change the case strategy of the Defence,
2 first of all. The Prosecution admits that this is a new statement. It
3 requires a new Defence strategy. It requires a new approach during the
4 examination-in-chief in terms of objecting or not objecting. The
5 exhibits, there's a huge bunch of exhibits to be tendered through this
6 witness. It would require simply a new strategy for the chief, apart
7 from the cross-examination, and I think with due respect the crux is not
8 the physical presence of the accused -- sorry, of the witness today, it's
9 simply also for the examination-in-chief having had the proper
10 preparation, opportunity, in terms of objecting, not objecting, case
11 strategy and the admission of exhibits.
12 It may be so that during our investigation we find certain
13 exhibits or other information which could lead us to the conclusion that
14 certain exhibits which the Prosecution intends to tender are not
15 objectionable, or for purposes of case strategy, should not be objected
16 to, and we simply don't have this information available yet. So
17 therefore, apart from the fact that I think splitting the
18 examination-in-chief from the cross-examination is also not viable for
19 Defence purposes because the witness will be seizure in those two
20 sequences of the procedure, apart from that issue, I think we would
21 seriously be hampered if the Court would continue with the
22 examination-in-chief of B-215 for the reasons I just outlined. Thank
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann. Brief, please.
25 MR. HOFFMANN: Of course. Just a brief response on the issue
1 of -- just on the issue of the exhibits. The exhibits have been notified
2 to both Defence teams on the 29th of July. It's true that the witness
3 now made comments on those exhibits, but what exhibits were to be used is
4 known since the end of July. And again on the witness scheduling, with
5 all sympathy to the Defence, it might have been -- it would have been
6 appreciated, I think, by the Prosecution if we would have heard earlier,
7 even informally, by the Defence that there might be an issue about these
8 proofing notes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although I do understand that they were
10 provided on the 25th of August, which is the day before yesterday. Well,
11 much time wasn't there, was there?
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will withdraw, and it hopes that it will
14 be able to make up our mind in five minutes, but everyone is expected to
15 remain standby.
16 --- Break taken at 2.56 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 3.05 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has considered the submissions. The
19 Chamber has decided that it will hear the evidence of this witness in
20 chief. We have the old statement, and we have the proofing notes. The
21 Chamber leaves it in the hands of the Prosecution how to present the
22 evidence as it can be found in the proofing notes.
23 There's a fair chance that the Chamber would not immediately
24 today decide, even if there would be the appropriate attestations, to
25 immediately decide on admission, so we leave it in your hands,
1 Mr. Hoffmann, whether or not you want to take the risk just seeking the
2 attestation or whether you want to elicit the evidence viva voce, which
3 of course will take more time.
4 Then as far as the Defence is concerned, the Chamber is not
5 convinced by the arguments raised by the Defence that hearing the
6 evidence in chief would be prejudicial as explained by you, Mr. Knoops.
7 The Chamber accepts that if on the basis of further investigations in
8 relation to this new evidence that you'd like to reconsider your position
9 as far as exhibits are concerned, exhibits which are not directly
10 relation -- at least exhibits that were already on the list, that the
11 Chamber will then consider arguments you may raise at that time, and of
12 course one of the things you could do at this moment is just to object to
13 all of it and say that you give the reasons, put this on the record that
14 you object. The Chamber will then most likely mark the exhibits for
15 identification and decide perhaps after you have had an opportunity to
16 further explore the matter.
17 Therefore, the Chamber will proceed, but already grants
18 additional time to prepare for cross-examination. If there would be any
19 area which you could deal with already today which is not influenced by
20 the new proofing notes, you're invited to do so and you're even
21 encouraged to do so, but the Chamber accepts that you need more time for
22 cross-examination, especially in view of the -- of the evidence contained
23 at this moment in the proofing notes.
24 This would also mean that assuming that you want to cross-examine
25 the witness also on the new evidence, to say so, that if the witness
1 would have to be recalled for that, that that would, under the then
2 circumstances, also provide an opportunity for Mr. Simatovic to
3 cross-examine the witness, or at least Mr. Simatovic's Defence in
4 whatever composition at the time will when the witness reappears for
5 cross-examination or further cross-examination.
6 Any questions about this ruling? If that's clear, we turn into
7 closed session.
8 [Closed session]
11 Pages 2115-2123 redacted. Closed session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 Yes. If the Prosecution would be so kind to assist in already
21 raising the curtains. While I appreciate that the ...
22 [Trial Chamber and usher confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Never interfere in matters in which you do not fully
24 understand. We have to wait until the closed-session transcript is off
25 the screen entirely before the curtains will be raised. It's always good
1 to see with what detail these kind of measures are surrounded.
2 Mr. Hoffmann, are you ready to examine the witness?
3 MR. HOFFMANN: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're still bound by the solemn
5 declaration you gave in closed session, that is that you will speak the
6 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
8 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Examination by Mr. Hoffman:
10 Q. Witness, do you recall giving a statement to investigators from
11 this Tribunal?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. HOFFMANN: I would ask that document 65 ter 5126, that is ERN
14 0308-4101, 0308 -- to 4140 be placed in front of the witness on the
15 monitor. It is a witness statement dated 10 and 12 March, and 10, 11,
16 and 29 April 2003.
17 Witness, on the screen in front of you is a document purporting
18 to be a statement given by you in March and April 2003. Do you recall
19 giving a statement at this point in time?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And if you would please look at the signature on the bottom of
22 page 1 and tell the Court if you recognise it.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is that indeed your signature?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And if we could please go to page 36 in the B/C/S version. And
2 again I would ask you to look at the signature on the bottom of that page
3 and whether you recognise that as your own.
4 A. Yes, this is my signature.
5 Q. And did you have a chance to review the statement before coming
6 to court today?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And is this indeed your own statement that you gave to the
9 investigator at the time?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. HOFFMANN: Could I then ask that document 65 ter 5127 be put
12 on the monitor. It's ERN 0649-7936 to 0649-7938. It is a supplemental
13 information sheet submitted in the Perisic case and signed by the witness
14 on 11 May, 2009
15 Q. Witness, did you have a chance prior to testifying in the Perisic
16 case to review your statement and make additional comments?
17 A. Yes, I did have an opportunity to review the statement while I
18 was here in The Hague
19 added some comments to my original statement.
20 Q. And if we could please look at the signature on the bottom of
21 page 3 of that document. And again I would ask you if you do recognise
22 this signature as your own.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And this document is indeed an accurate summary of your
25 additional comments that you made at the time?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you have an additional opportunity prior to testifying today
3 to review the translation of these two documents in your own language?
4 A. When I provided the statement on the 11th of May, 2009, before I
5 signed the statement I was provided with a copy of the statement, and I
6 still have it at home. I still have that copy, the copy that I signed on
7 the 11th of May. And on this occasion when I arrived at The Hague
8 again saw the same statement.
9 Q. And when you arrived this time in The Hague did you have a chance
10 to put down in writing any more additions or corrections to these two
12 A. Well, given the things that I could remember, I did add some
13 things -- or, rather, I provided some further clarification to some of
14 the passages in my original statement.
15 MR. HOFFMANN: Can I ask that please 65 ter 5128 be put on the
16 monitor. It's ERN 0671-6334 to 0671-6340.
17 Q. If you look at the document in front of you, and if we then can
18 go to page 6, would you recognise your signature on this document?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And is it correct that you signed this document after the content
21 of it was read out to you in the Serbian language?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you want to make any additional corrections or clarifications
24 to your statements at this point in time in addition to what you've seen
25 on the screen?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And subject to the corrections in the documents before you, did
3 your statements that you signed in 2003 and in May 2009 accurately -- in
4 May and in August 2009 accurately reflect what you said to the Office of
5 the Prosecutor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today in court that you
8 were asked in 2003 and in May and August 2009, would you give the same
10 A. Yes, I would provide the same answers, but the time that has
11 lapsed is a bit longer now, so I will probably be able to remember less
12 detail, but I would provide the same answers basically.
13 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, at this point in time the
14 Prosecution would ask that the prior statements of this witness from 2003
15 and the signed notes from May 2009 would be admitted into evidence, that
16 is 65 ter 5126 and 65 ter 5127, while I would ask that the proofing notes
17 made in this case, given the comments by the Court earlier on, would be
18 simply marked for identification while I would lead the evidence in
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please assign numbers,
21 firstly 2003 statement.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P51, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection against this statement to be admitted
24 into evidence? 2003.
25 MR. HOFFMANN: No objection.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Domazet.
2 Then P51 is admitted into evidence.
3 Madam Registrar, the May 2009 statement or supplemental
5 THE REGISTRAR: Will become Exhibit P52, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection, Mr. Knoops?
7 MR. KNOOPS: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Domazet.
9 P52 is admitted into evidence since -- and then the last one, the
10 August 2009 statement -- or perhaps I should say the information sheet,
11 the supplemental information sheet, often referred to as proofing notes,
12 that would receive number?
13 THE REGISTRAR: P53, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification. If at any later
15 stage you would tender them, we'll then hear about objections and decide
16 on the matter.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
18 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Q. Witness, in your 2003 statement, at paragraph 16 following, you
20 describe the arming of Croatian Serbs in the so called SAO SBWS, and more
21 specifically in paragraph 20 you describe in detail how arms and
22 ammunition were transported across the Serbian-Croatian border. In that
23 context you do mention several operatives of the Serbian state security,
24 the Serbian DB being involved in this. How did you know that these
25 people were operatives of the Serbian state security?
1 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, I object to the questioning. It's --
2 it may be so that the statement of the witness is admitted, but cannot be
3 so that the questions in chief are purely leading.
4 JUDGE ORIE: They're not leading to the extent that Mr. Hoffmann
5 is just asking for the basis of the knowledge of the statement as is
6 admitted into evidence. At least, Mr. Hoffmann, that's how I understood
7 your question, but the witness has said that to DB operatives, then he
8 can be asked about what is the basis for his knowledge that the person he
9 describes were DB operatives. That is not leading. It's just a
10 follow-up on what is already in evidence as his statement.
11 Could you please answer the question, that is, how did you know
12 that the persons you described as DB operatives were staff of the DB or
13 operatives of the DB? What's the basis of that knowledge?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The source of my knowledge was the
15 fact that at the time, owing to a friend of mine who was one of the
16 senior staff of the MUP of Serbia, I was transferred to the reserve staff
17 of the MUP of Serbia, to the police brigade from the reserve staff of the
18 JNA where I had been serving since then. As a professional driver, I was
19 given a task in my unit, i.e., I was assigned to the auto unit as a
20 driver. On one occasion I was given a task, and I -- and I described
21 that task in my statement. I learnt from a conversation with the people
22 and the behaviour of the people who wore civilian clothes that they were
23 actually members of the state security, of the DB.
24 MR. HOFFMANN:
25 Q. Just to clarify, so you did talk in person to these DB
2 A. When that column was being formed they provided security for the
3 column, and they had the main say as to what would happen to the column,
4 and they provided the complete security for the column and making sure
5 that the column reached its final destination.
6 Q. Did you talk to these people about their background or their
7 affiliation to the DB?
8 A. No, I did not communicate with them directly, but one of my
9 colleagues who was an active police officer in the police brigade told me
10 that our security was provided by men from the state security.
11 Q. If you refer to the state security, to which state security do
12 you refer?
13 A. Well, I'm referring to the DB, as it was known then. I was a
14 member of the reserve forces of the public security.
15 Q. And just for the record, of which country is that state security
17 A. At that time it was the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
18 Q. Further on in your 2003 statement you do mention
19 Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, several times being the chief of the
20 Territorial Defence in Eastern Slavonia at the time.
21 MR. HOFFMANN: I would ask that 65 ter Exhibit 107 be put on the
22 screen. It's ERN 0064-1702. It is a certificate of the supreme
23 territorial defence headquarter of the SAO SBWS, dated 13 December 1991.
24 Q. Witness, did you have a chance to look at this document before
25 coming to court?
1 A. I did see such documents, because the Territorial Defence Staff
2 of Slavonia
3 were being sent on furlough, on weekends when they travelled on business
4 from Western Slavonia, Baranja, and Srem to the territory of Serbia
5 Such certificates were issued to people who travelled on business
6 to allow them to keep their personal weapons when they crossed the bridge
7 near Doboj.
8 Q. Can you, just for the record, tell the Court, if you look at this
9 document, who signed this document?
10 A. Well, I can't tell you whether this was signed by
11 Radovan Stojicic, Badza, or his deputy, but I would say that it was
12 somebody else who signed on behalf of Radovan Stojicic. This is not his
13 signature, I think.
14 Q. Are you familiar with the person mentioned in this document, that
15 is Slobodan Miljkovic?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Given what you've said before would you say that this document is
18 consistent with your own personal knowledge of similar documents that you
19 saw at the time and the position of Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza?
20 A. Yes. The document is credible. I was provided with a similar
21 document when I travelled to Serbia
22 featured the time of travel, the time of return and the weapons that I
23 carried. Whether it was a pistol or a long-barrel arm, whatever it was,
24 the document had to show the registration number of the piece.
25 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders Exhibit 65
1 ter 107 into evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
3 MR. KNOOPS: At this point we have objections, but we suggest to
4 mark it for identification after cross-examination make a decision on the
5 admission into evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Domazet.
7 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] The same objection, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number so
9 that the document be marked for identification.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P54, Your Honours, marked for
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 Mr. Hoffmann, I see that there's a stamp with "Exhibit," and then
14 date admitted. Well, that's still open. OTP reference. Is that -- has
15 it been used on other cases, or will we always have documents illustrated
16 by these kind of stamps?
17 MR. HOFFMANN: No. It is indeed been admitted in the Milosevic
18 case, and this is obviously an earlier copy without the actual exhibit
19 number, which was Exhibit 466, tab 12, in the Milosevic case.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Wouldn't it be good that documents are not
21 bearing the traces of being used in other cases and just have the
22 document before us?
23 MR. HOFFMANN: Certainly, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you have another copy to be uploaded that would
25 be find. We're not making any drama out of it because it is now on the
1 record that the stamp is not part of the original document. We also have
2 no -- there were some other markings on it as well, but that seems to be
3 not of direct relevance at this moment, but please provide copies without
4 ICTY traces from other cases on it next time. Please proceed.
5 MR. HOFFMANN: We will do so, Your Honours.
6 Q. Witness, in your 2003 statement, at paragraph 41, you do mention
7 a certain JNA General, Andrija Bijorcevic. Can you tell the Court who he
8 was in 1991?
9 A. In my statement I mentioned Mr. Andrija Bijorcevic,
10 general major. In 1991 he was the deputy commander of the Novi Sad Corps
11 of the Yugoslav People's Army. As the deputy commander of the Novi Sad
12 Corps until the death of General Major Bratic when he succeeded him as a
13 commander of the Novi Sad Corps.
14 Q. Have you met General Bijorcevic in 1991 or 1992 personally at any
16 A. I met Mr. Bijorcevic on several occasions in 1991. I spent a lot
17 of time at the observation post at Brsadin Silo as I drove my commander
18 there. I was even present when Major General Bratic got killed during
19 the Assembly of the pontoon bridge leading towards Borovo Naselje from
20 the Brsadin Silo.
21 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, at this point in time we would play
22 a short clip of Prosecution Exhibit 65 ter 2666. The video ERN is
23 V000-1412. The clip we play is running from minute 51:57 to 54 minutes
24 of the original tape.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any text on it?
1 MR. HOFFMANN: Yes. As usual we have provided the booth with the
2 relevant transcripts.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's good. Already any observation to be made
4 prior to playing this clip, Mr. Knoops, Mr. Domazet?
5 MR. KNOOPS: Well, Your Honours, when the Defence was seeing the
6 clip we were not hearing the translation of all the participants in the
7 particular conversation on the clip, so I'm not sure whether that is
8 already being remedied by the Prosecution.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
10 MR. HOFFMANN: I'm not quite sure I understand the Defence on
11 that point.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand Mr. Knoops to say that apparently
13 people are speaking on this clip at portions of speech not being
14 transcribed and/or translated. Is that the case, Mr. Knoops?
15 MR. KNOOPS: When we looked at the clip, Your Honours, there is
16 only one person who is translating, and it's not for the whole meeting.
17 So we're not sure whether the Prosecution is intending to let small
18 portions of the clip here to the Court, but maybe you can first look at
19 the clip and then decide.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's -- let's -- it's only this portion that
21 you tender into evidence, Mr. Hoffmann?
22 MR. HOFFMANN: With this witness, yes, and we have indicated
23 prior to the Defence what portion we play. It's only one person
24 speaking, that is General Bijorcevic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and if it ever comes to other portions which
1 you would tender, you would at that time provide us with transcripts and
3 MR. HOFFMANN: Right. And if I may, just in addition, I actually
4 had contacted the Defence before about these exhibits and I was told that
5 for this particular video there was actually no objection so ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: But has the matter been resolved, Mr. Knoops, as
7 explained by Mr. Hoffmann?
8 MR. KNOOPS: Yes. We just wait for the clip.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Mr. Domazet, you have no comments. Then let's look at the clip.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] GB: This is what they said.
13 Vance Plan states if people express their will to live independently, if
14 people decide to live in the Croatian state, if they declare themselves
15 independent, they should be independent. If they declare they want to
16 live together with other Serbian states, that is again their right. In
17 the event that someone attacks that people, we are obliged to protect
18 them. That is what the Vance Plan says. And there's no one, no
19 leadership in Serbia
20 for anybody to remain at the head of the state without protecting its
21 people. I have to tell you I was at a meeting, and Cosic ... and there
22 was talk, it is not a secret, people were very hesitant. And he said:
23 There's no need for us to cross the border. I said: Mr. President,
24 regardless of the superior command, leadership and yourself, if someone
25 attacks the people, I will raise the army without your knowledge. When I
1 overtook the duty of the commander of this corps, things were really
2 looking sad. Vukovar and that, it was not planned to fall ever. And we
3 did that on our own initiative, but they would not destroy that to such
4 an extent if they meant to surrender themselves. First of all they
5 didn't want to surrender, and second of all, they didn't want people to
6 charge. You know, you can open fire from all your equipment if -- all
7 you want if you don't have a man who will adopt -- adopt a stand. That
8 is the greatest merit of Arkan's volunteers, although some people are
9 saying I'm plotting with paramilitary formations, these are not
10 paramilitary formations. Those are people who came of their own free
11 will to fight for the Serbian people, and we would surround the village,
12 he would storm and kill those who would not surrender, and on we went."
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I see the very last picture again. The very
15 [Video-clip played]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hoffmann, according to your presentation,
17 it should be two minutes and three seconds, where it is two minutes and
18 six seconds. So could you please -- you played more than you said you
19 would play. I don't think it's of great importance here, but I'm
20 insisting very much on great precision in whatever is presented to the
21 Chamber. Please proceed.
22 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honour. I will look into that.
23 Q. Witness, is this General Bijorcevic that you've seen at this
24 footage the one that you mentioned in your statement and that you had met
25 in person?
1 A. Yes. That was General Andrija Bijorcevic. In 1991 he was
2 major-general? And in 1992 -- or, rather, I can't tell you when exactly
3 he was promoted into the rank of colonel-general, and at the time he was
4 discharging the duty as the commander of the Novi Sad Corps.
5 Q. Did you see that footage before or even at the time when it was
7 A. Well, I did see this footage here. I can't remember whether I
8 saw it on TV ever, but as far as I learned from all the events, I believe
9 that this happened in 1992 in a place called Beli Manastir, in Baranja.
10 Q. Would you say that the general's statement is consistent with
11 your own personal knowledge of the events in the SAO SBWS, and especially
12 the relationship between the JNA and Arkan's unit, the SDG?
13 A. What he said, what Andrija Bijorcevic said here is consistent
14 with everything, because I was in the territory, and I saw cooperation
15 between the JNA and Arkan's units -- or, rather, the Serbian Volunteers
16 Guard, and I could observe the coordination between the two during combat
18 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, Prosecution tenders this clip of 65
19 ter 2666 into evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
21 Madam Registrar.
22 MR. KNOOPS: We would like to prefer to have it marked identical
23 to the previous exhibit and withhold our final comments, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I assume that you have good reasons to do
25 that, Mr. Knoops. Therefore, we'll allow that. At the same time, it's
1 important that keep the list of exhibits as -- which have not been
2 decided upon yet as short as possible, but in view of the circumstances I
3 accept -- yes, Mr. --
4 MR. HOFFMANN: Just one minor point, but as -- as suggested by
5 the Court earlier on, we do our -- in correspondence prior to the
6 testimony on these exhibits, and there had been indeed an e-mail from
7 Mr. Jordash indicating that there were no objections so I'm a bit
8 surprised that --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Was that an e-mail which was sent before the
10 supplemental information sheet, the proofing notes, were sent to the
12 MR. HOFFMANN: That's correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore I think Mr. Knoops explained that
14 the reason why he wanted to reserve his -- more or less for reconsidering
15 whether the no objections position would be still valid after he has
16 further explored the additional information. Therefore, in view of the
17 timing of the e-mail of Mr. Jordash, this is not a reason not to grant
18 the request from Mr. Knoops.
19 Madam Registrar, that would be number?
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P55, marked for identification,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And it will keep that status for the time being.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. HOFFMANN:
25 Q. Witness, in your 2003 statement, in paragraph 52 you state that
1 the main problem in the SBWS region were the paramilitary units which
2 were formed in the Republic of Serbia
3 paramilitary units, among them Arkan's men, the Serbian Volunteer Guard,
4 the SDG.
5 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, at this point I -- I have an objection,
6 because the statement Mr. Hoffmann is referring to is contained in a
7 paragraph of the statement of the witness concerning Vukovar, and as
8 Your Honours may know, Vukovar is not part of the indictment of both
9 accused, so therefore I don't believe that the questioning by the
10 Prosecution should include the portions of the statement of the witness
11 which refer to Vukovar and the Vukovar events.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
13 MR. HOFFMANN: I'm happy to clarify with the witness this point
14 of his statement. I don't think that this portion of his statement
15 relates only to the Vukovar events.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then you introduce the matter not in direct relation
17 with Vukovar. Then please proceed so it's not primarily in view of
18 paragraph 52 which seems to be under the heading of "Vukovar."
19 MR. HOFFMANN:
20 Q. Witness, you have stated in your statement that the main problem
21 had been those paramilitary units. When you made that statement, did you
22 especially refer to problems with those paramilitary units only in the
23 Vukovar area or in the wider area of the SBWS?
24 A. In my statement, I said that in the area of Slavonia, Baranja,
25 and Western Srem, the problem was with all the paramilitary units that
1 were in the territory, starting with the Croatian or the so-called
2 Home Guard and the Serb Volunteers Guard, the Territorial Defence, and
3 all others who were active in that territory. The Yugoslav People's Army
4 could not implement its task the way it was supposed to and the way it
5 should have.
6 MR. HOFFMANN: And just for the record, Your Honours, actually in
7 paragraph 49 of his statement he does refer to a number of villages as
8 it's stated in the statement as in the Vukovar area, but actually that
9 refers to places in the SBWS.
10 Q. Witness, what do you mean when saying in your statement these
11 units were formed in Serbia
12 A. I mean that in the territory where I was and throughout which I
13 drove the commander and participated in combat, including the village of
14 Vera, Pacatin, Brsadin, the farm at Principovac, and the Brsadin Silo and
15 on towards Vukovar, those units were formed not only in Serbia but over
16 80 or 90 percent of their personnel arrived from Serbia. In the TO units
17 in western Srem and Slavonia
18 who originally hailed from there, mostly Serbs and -- but a few Croats.
19 I knew a few of them who were members of the TO but were Croatian.
20 Q. Speaking specifically about the SDG, Arkan's unit, do you know
21 who established the SDG?
22 A. By virtue of the fact that this Serb Volunteers Guard was not
23 independent of the JNA command, as the first point; and as the second
24 point, they could easily be distinguished from the Yugoslav People's Army
25 because of their uniform; and the third point is that their weapons were
1 much more modern than the weapons owned by the JNA, and they had more
2 modern protective gear for individual infantrymen, et cetera. They also
3 had the Heckler and Koch automatic rifle, which was not the case with the
4 JNA. They had very up-to-date bullet-proof vests, suits, et cetera. At
5 that time, the JNA were still in old uniforms, and it was only in early
6 October that they were being issued with new camouflage uniforms and
7 other equipment. Ninety percent of the personnel had no protective gear
8 and no bullet-proof vests.
9 Q. Thank you for that information, but, Witness, I would appreciate
10 if you could concentrate on the question. The question was whether you
11 had any knowledge about who established the SDG.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Before you answer that question. Mr. Knoops.
13 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, my objection is that the witness is,
14 first of all, volunteering himself to provide information about
15 apparently statistics he has in mind. He mentioned several times 80, 90
16 percent, 90 percent no protectives, et cetera. Secondly, the witness is
17 not here as an expert, so therefore before a witness in this view could
18 give any comments or own opinions should be proper foundation before we
19 could continue with these kinds of questions or allowing the witness to
20 volunteer this kind of information to the Court.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, I would agree with you that perhaps
22 Mr. Hoffmann could have already intervened at an earlier stage. At the
23 same time, you can object against questions. The question as such was
24 not soliciting for what the witness told us. We can't object against
25 answers given by the witness. Of course you can cross-examine the
1 witness on the basis of his knowledge. I tend to agree that statistical
2 information would need a proper foundation, but what Mr. Hoffmann did, as
3 a matter of fact, is to try to get witness back to the question he had
4 put to him.
5 You may proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
6 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. So, Witness, if I may just repeat the question. Did you have any
8 knowledge of who established the SDG in Serbia?
9 A. At the beginning of my stay in Slavonia, I had no knowledge of
10 who organised the SDG in Serbia
11 between my commander Mr. Vaskovic and the commander of the SDG, and when
12 a meeting was held in Erdut between my commander and that -- and the SDG
13 commander Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, it was at that meeting that
14 Zeljko Raznjatovic, aka Arkan, spoke in raised voices and addressed my
15 commander telling him, Do you know who's behind me? At a certain point
16 in time he took out an ID -- ID which said "State Security Service." It
17 was a blue ID. He opened the booklet to show him that it actually
18 contained his personal data and photograph.
19 In addition to that, I can tell you that the SDG was not equipped
20 or supplied by the JNA in terms of weapons and other supplies. It was
21 not done the JNA logistics, which means that they had the Serbian state
22 security service behind them.
23 MR. KNOOPS: I strongly object against -- Prosecution is -- the
24 witness is simply not answering the question. He's just rambling with --
25 with giving all kinds of information on a simple question, and I don't
1 agree with the Court that there's no objectionable mechanism when a
2 witness is answering in an unresponsive or in a voluntary way. Under the
3 common law principles there is an opportunity for the Defence to object
4 to the way the witness is answering the questions.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think I clearly told Mr. Hoffmann that I would
6 have expected him to intervene at an earlier stage. The witness is
7 invited to focus his answers to the questions put to him, and if
8 Mr. Hoffmann would like to know not only who established the SDG but also
9 how they were provided with arms, he will certainly ask you about that.
10 Mr. Knoops, finally, the common law I learned, meanwhile, does
11 not exist. Second, we do not apply in this ICTY common law standards
13 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
14 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honour. I think with respect --
15 with all respect to the witness, he was clearly answering that
16 question --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the ruling is clear, Mr. Hoffmann. You
18 may proceed with your next question.
19 MR. HOFFMANN: Of course, Your Honour.
20 Q. Witness, you did mention that meeting in Erdut between your
21 commander, Vaskovic, and Arkan, and that Arkan produced a DB ID, and you
22 had said that Arkan had asked, Do you know who's behind me?
23 Do you recall if Arkan said anything further about that?
24 A. Yes. Arkan told him, The Ministry of Defence is behind me, as
25 well as the Serbian state security, and I only answer to them, not to
1 you. If you keep this up, you could disappear within the next 24 hours.
2 Q. Did Arkan mention any names?
3 A. Not specifically. He only told him that he had the MOD backing
4 him as well as the government of the Republic of Serbia
5 security service. He added that he was only answerable to them.
6 Q. Now, you did attest to the accuracy of the proofing notes that
7 were signed by you two days ago. Do you recall stating that Arkan stated
8 at that meeting that he could potentially inform somebody if your
9 commander would insist?
10 A. Yes. He said that he could notify those superior to my commander
11 within the Ministry of Defence and the General Staff of the then Yugoslav
12 People's Army.
13 Q. Do you recall that he made similar statements with regard to the
15 MR. KNOOPS: I object. The question is repeatedly asked and
16 answered, and the Prosecution's clearly fishing for another answer, and
17 it's apparently also leading.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me re-read.
19 The objection is denied. You may repeat the question so that the
20 witness can answer it.
21 MR. HOFFMANN:
22 Q. Witness, do you recall that Arkan at that meeting, when
23 confronted by your commander, Vaskovic, said anything about informing
24 someone in the Serbian DB?
25 A. Well, he flashed the state security ID, and he told him at that
1 point, See? I even have a state security ID, and I could conclude this
2 matter by making you disappear in the next 24 hours. He didn't
3 specifically say that he would inform the state security, but he did
4 threaten him.
5 Q. As you did attest to the accuracy of your statement signed two
6 days ago I want to put you that in those notes that you signed that were
7 read to you, you said: "Arkan further said, if need be I'll inform
8 President Milosevic or my chief, Jovica Stanisic." Do you recall giving
9 such a statement?
10 A. I do. He told him that if need be, he would notify the ministry
11 and even the president of the republic, as well as his superiors in the
12 state security, and this was supposed to be Jovica Stanisic, since he was
13 at the helm of the state security service at the time.
14 Q. Just to clarify on the record, did he mention him personally as
15 stated in the notes?
16 A. Yes. He mentioned the boss, his boss in the state security. He
17 didn't mention his name, but he mentioned his boss in the state security,
18 and the boss of the SDB at that time was Mr. Jovica Stanisic.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovacevic, would you please be very precise in
20 your answers, because what you now tell us is at least not in line with a
21 supplemental information sheet which is not in evidence, although you
22 said you reviewed it, and it -- you correct it to the extent needed.
23 There is a difference between referring to "my chief in the DB" and
24 giving a name, even if it is your opinion that Mr. Stanisic was, at the
25 time, the chief of the DB. Would you please be very precise, and if
1 there's any need to re-read your answers in the supplemental information
2 sheet, you can ask it to be provided to you again.
3 Mr. Hoffmann, you may proceed.
4 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, may I just --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. KNOOPS: -- from a legal point ask the guidance of the Court?
7 It's my submission that now that this additional statement or these
8 additional proofing notes are not yet admitted into evidence since the
9 Court has accepted -- or the Prosecution has accepted that these contain
10 new elements, new potential evidence, that questions with respect to that
11 statement should not be leading. And actually, the first question just
12 posed by my learned friend Mr. Hoffmann relating to this new statement
13 was -- was clearly a leading question. So it's our position that when
14 Prosecution intends to question the witness, potentially question the
15 witness on the whereabouts of this new statement, it should be on the
16 basis of non-leading questions.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what Mr. Hoffmann apparently did is to
18 confront the witness with an inconsistent prior statement, although the
19 inconsistency was limited.
20 Mr. Hoffmann, to that extent the questions are leading, and to
21 that extent it is -- usually you would do so with permission of the
22 Court. You have not asked such permission. Mr. Knoops is objecting to
23 the leading character of the question. Would you please keep this in
24 mind if you again want to confront the witness with a statement which is,
25 if not entirely, at least on a detail, inconsistent with the testimony he
1 gives in court.
2 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, if I may briefly respond.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. HOFFMANN: I think actually if look at the rationale of
5 Rule 92 ter, that is what is complied with, that is, the witness came to
6 court. He had looked at the statement, he said he did review it, and he
7 did attest to the accuracy of it. Of course, I understand it's still
8 marked for identification given the situation with the Defence counsel on
9 the one side and the issue of prior notice, but I do think that the
10 rationale behind Rule 92 ter is actually fulfilled, and it seems to me
11 proper to -- to lead him on these matters if need be. I try to avoid
12 that, but I don't see after he did attest to the accuracy of that
13 statement that any leading questions would be actually not permitted.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann, I'm always careful in seeking
16 verification of my analysis of the situation. What I just expressed as
17 my view is the Chamber's view and the ruling stands as it is. Please
19 MR. HOFFMANN: Very well, Your Honours.
20 Q. Witness, just very quickly on this meeting, could you tell the
21 Court when that meeting did happen in Erdut?
22 A. That meeting in Erdut was held, I think, in September or October.
23 I am not quite certain. It lasted for about half an hour. In that
24 discussion or argument between Arkan and my commander --
25 Q. Interrupt you here. With all respect, I think you answered the
1 question. Would you tell the Court briefly who did attend that meeting,
2 apart from Mr. Vaskovic, your commander, and Arkan and yourself?
3 A. As the driver, I drove Mr. Vaskovic there. We had another two
4 soldiers with us, and Mr. Zarko Sljukic. When we arrived, Arkan summoned
5 the commander who had originally a conflict with my commander to come in.
6 Q. Thank you. In your 2003 statement, which is now Exhibit P51, at
7 paragraph 68, and later at paragraph 97 you do refer to the oil fields at
8 Djeletovci in Eastern Slavonia. Have you ever been personally at the oil
9 fields either in 1991 or 1992?
10 A. In 1992 I was in the oil field, and later, sometime either in
11 1993 or 1994 I was in Djeletovci on several occasions.
12 Q. When you were at Djeletovci did you see any specific security or
13 any specific guards for those oil fields?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What kind of security was provided for the oil fields and by
17 A. Well, the Djeletovci oil fields were secured by armed personnel.
18 On several occasions as I stayed there and as I toured the field as a
19 member of the reserve forces of the republic Serbia MUP, and as I was
20 helping to form local police forces, and the rest, and, as I say, as I
21 was there I learned that the personnel that provided security for the oil
22 fields was composed of the unit known as Skorpios.
23 Q. Do you know no established or who was behind the Skorpions?
24 A. The Scorpions unit was established by the state security of the
25 Republic of Serbia
1 Q. How do you know that the Skorpions were established by the
2 Serbian state security?
3 A. I know that from a conversation with my superior who was on the
4 ground. His name was Stevo Pavkovic. He told me that those men were
5 members of a unit that was under the control of the DB. That unit did
6 not have any contact and did not receive any orders from our men. Our
7 men who were on the ground there.
8 Q. Did you ever have any conversation with a certain Jovan Stojic
9 about that unit?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What did Jovan Stojic tell you about the Skorpions?
12 A. Mr. Jovan Stojic at the time was discharging the duties in the
13 state security in the city of Kragujevac
14 he was touring west Slavonia
15 Q. Now that you have explained his position, if I may repeat the
16 question. Did Jovan Stojic tell you anything about the Skorpions?
17 A. Yes. He told me that that was a unit under their control.
18 Q. And did you have any personal contact whatsoever with any members
19 of the Skorpions at the time?
20 A. There were some informal conversations, some informal encounters,
21 and so on.
22 Q. Witness, do you know who Milorad Ulemek, aka Legija, is?
23 A. Milorad Ulemek, also known as Legija, as far as I know was a
24 member of the foreigners legion. I don't know exactly when he joined the
25 unit of the Serbian Volunteers Guard. And there he was the deputy
1 commander and the chief instructor for the training of the members of
2 that unit.
3 Q. Do you know how Legija ended up with the SDG?
4 A. I don't know exactly, but I can assume.
5 Q. Would you let us know?
6 JUDGE ORIE: No. Let's avoid --
7 MR. KNOOPS: Objection.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's avoid the witness to invite assumptions. If
9 there are any facts to his knowledge which may support his assumptions
10 you can ask him about those facts, but assumptions are not to be asked
11 for. Please proceed.
12 MR. HOFFMANN: Very well.
13 Q. Do you have any knowledge who controlled the border crossing at
14 Erdut at that time?
15 A. In 1991 and in 1992, the border crossing or the only crossing at
16 the time at the bridge on Bogojevo on the Croatian side was controlled by
17 the men of the TO, which was under the command of Radovan Stojicic Badza
18 and Serbian Volunteers Guard.
19 Q. And just for the record if you refer to the bridge on Bogovo --
20 Bogojevo, that is the bridge at or near Erdut?
21 A. Bogojevo. Yes. On the Croatian side the closest town is Erdut,
22 and as you cross the bridge into Serbia
23 Q. Thank you. Let me now turn to evidence that you gave on
24 Western Bosnia
25 describe military operations in Western Bosnia and your deployment with
1 the police brigade to that area in September 1995, which is at paragraph
2 116 and following. You do mention the presence of Arkan and his men in
3 the area between Sanski Most and Prijedor and refer to Arkan's
4 activities. I would like to show you several short clips and ask you for
5 your comments. But before I do so, just for the orientation of the
6 Court, I would refer to map 34 of the Court binder of maps which shows
7 the area from Sanski Most to Prijedor in Western Bosnia. I did receive
8 an indication from the Stanisic defence that there would be no objection
9 to the admission of this map into evidence. Given the circumstances, I
10 have not heard from the Simatovic Defence, but I wouldn't expect any
11 objection to this purely road map from the area.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to tender it right away or --
13 MR. HOFFMANN: Just to save time, I would see at the moment no
14 need to show it in court but to tender it right away.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number to
16 the map.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P55 -- 56, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that even for strategic reasons, there
19 are no objections against this map which seems to be just a geographical
20 picture of the area?
21 MR. KNOOPS: That's correct, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P56 is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. HOFFMANN: The Prosecution will now play a short footage from
24 Prosecution Exhibit 65 ter 2756, video ERN V000-4739, and the clip runs
25 from minute 35:29 to 35:51 of the original tape.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Brane Pecanac: Yesterday, during
3 the afternoon and evening hours on our stride we accepted to engage in a
4 clash with enemy forces and push them back immediately. Today, however,
5 as per planned tasks we continued on together with commander Borovcanin
6 and Arkan's Tigers. We captured important strategic points which are a
7 precondition for further advancement and linking up with army activity
8 with the Army of Republika Srpska."
9 MR. HOFMANN: I was just told I made a minor mistake. It's
10 actually 65 ter 2576.
11 Q. Witness, having seen that short clip, can you tell the Court
12 whether you have seen similar footage before?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you recognise any of the people appearing on that footage?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Whom did you recognise?
17 A. I recognised Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic in this footage. I knew
18 Mr. Brane from before because he was a member of the Republika Srpska
19 MUP. I also knew Mr. Miroslav Rajak, who was the chief of the public
20 security centre in Banja Luka.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me look at it again.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann, could we ask the witness to identify
24 who he recognises, not only by name but also who on the picture he has
25 identified as the persons he said. Perhaps we could take a still
1 somewhere halfway so that he can tell us exactly which person he
2 identified by what name.
3 MR. HOFFMANN: Certainly. I would suggest that we play it again
4 and then stop halfway.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, stop halfway.
6 MR. HOFFMANN: Of course I don't want to stay stop and by that be
7 leading but --
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, but otherwise, the footage will not stop.
9 MR. HOFFMANN: Of course. Will do.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. HOFFMANN:
12 Q. On that video still, Witness, could you identify any of the
13 people that you referred to?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we take it one by one? We see one person in
16 the front who apparently is not wearing any beret or is just without any
17 head-wear, the person closest to the camera. Do you know who that is?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've already told you, you can
19 see it actually written on the footage, and behind that person is
20 Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic sporting a red beret on his head.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say the second man in line wearing the
22 red beret is Mr. Raznjatovic. Do you recognise the third person who is
23 in the background, apparently wearing a -- another colour of beret?
24 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann, are you interested in any of the other
2 persons or not? If not, then we'll ask no questions. I see that the
3 transcript is not -- yes, for the third person, the person in the
4 background with the different colour of beret, it's my recollection that,
5 but perhaps I spoke at the same time, that the witness said that he did
6 not know that third person in the background.
7 Is that correct, Witness?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. HOFFMANN: And maybe just for the record I think the video
11 was stopped at the very beginning, and I think the exact time code for
12 that one would be 35:29:3. So it's at the very beginning of the clip,
13 just for the record.
14 Q. Now, Witness, is that footage and what Mr. Pecanac says on this
15 footage consistent with your knowledge of the presence activities of
16 Arkan's men in Western Bosnia in 1995?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. HOFFMANN: I would tender this clip into evidence,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
21 MR. KNOOPS: We have the same position, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then it will be marked for identification.
23 Mr. Domazet, any objection? I see you're nodding yes, so you're joining
24 the position by the Stanisic Defence.
25 Madam Registrar, this footage.
1 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit P57, marked for
2 identification, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Please proceed.
4 MR. HOFFMANN: We do play another clip which is from
5 Prosecution Exhibit 65 ter 2609. It's video ERN V000-7024. This is the
6 second part of a documentary of the Serb TV station B-92, called the
7 unit. The clip runs from minute 34:42 to 36:29 of the original tape.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Narrator: After the fall of
10 Krajina, the Muslim and Croatian armies launched a large offensive on
11 Republika Srpska in the late summer of 1995. Thus Stanisic sent Arkan
12 and his part of the unit to the Bosnian Krajina. Arkan's main objective
13 was not the fighting but keeping up discipline in the Army of Republika
14 Srpska, the morale of which had been shaken.
15 "Raznjatovic: Don't say attention, say atten-tion! Let's go!
16 Teach him how to give orders. Come on there's no shame in it. The whole
17 Serbian nation is looking at you. To them you're neither heroes, nor
18 Serbian knights. I don't want a single Serbian here or Serbian knight
19 leaving his position like an asshole and sitting down by the school, not
20 giving an shit about the position! Is that clear? There will be no
21 slump in morale. I'm tired, four months ... after all, what is four
22 months? What if the war lasts another 14 years, what do we do then? Do
23 we surrender? No, we're not going to surrender! This is Serb land!
24 Sacred Serb land. Is this where you -- your graves are? This is where
25 your churches are. You have to defend what belongs to you. You are
1 defending your homes. Don't let me hear you say that you are tired again
2 because you're not tired! Chin up everybody! Chin up! You're a Serb
4 "VRS Officer: Battalion, attention!
5 "Raznjatovic: Well done, champ. That's it.
6 "VRS Officer: Right dress!
7 "Raznjatovic: All as one! That is what a Serb army should be!"
8 MR. HOFFMANN:
9 Q. Witness, in your 2003 statement, paragraph 118, among others, you
10 do refer to Arkan and the way he treated the local population and how he
11 and his men were arresting, retreating Serb soldiers and forcing them
12 back to the combat lines. Based on your personal experience as described
13 in your statement at the time in western Bosnian, would you say that the
14 footage that was just played is accurate and consistent with your own
15 personal knowledge?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you ever seen such footage before, or have you ever been
18 present at similar occasions?
19 A. I can't remember the exact date, but I can say that that was
20 sometime in September 1995, somewhere near Ostra Luka on the road from
21 Prijedor to Sanski Most.
22 Q. Do you know why Arkan's men, the SDG arrived to Western Bosnia
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann, could I first seek clarification of
24 the previous answer.
25 You said, "I can't remember the exact date, but you can say that
1 it was sometime in September 1995."
2 Now, were you referring to the event which was shown during the
3 footage, or are you referring to similar occasions?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke about a similar event which
5 took place near Ostra Luka on the road between Prijedor and Sanski Most.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that clarification.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
8 MR. HOFFMANN: I'm very grateful for your clarification,
9 Your Honour.
10 Q. Coming back to my question, do you know why or upon whose request
11 or order Arkan's men, the SDG arrived to Western Bosnian at that time?
12 A. Well, the SDG arrived at a request put by the Government of
13 Republika Srpska. The Government of Republika Srpska requested
14 assistance to stop the offensive which had been launched by the Bosnian
15 and Croatian armies.
16 Q. Do you know who that request was sent to?
17 A. The request was sent to the Ministry of Defence of the Republic
18 of Serbia
19 the Republic of Serbia
20 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, at this point, I really ask myself
21 whether this witness is in a position without proper foundation to
22 comment on the way orders were issued and documents were filed.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, I do agree that these questions and
24 answers are in need of laying a foundation. Of course not primarily the
25 questions, but if the witness answers these questions to assess the
1 probative value of the testimony, it is important to know the source or
2 how does he know this.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. HOFFMANN: That was exactly my next question.
5 Q. Witness, do you recall that you talked to your -- to your unit
6 commander at the time Miladin Milic about the SDG?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did he mention what you have said before regarding the request of
9 the RS and who that request was sent to?
10 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, I believe this is also leading.
11 JUDGE ORIE: This certainly is leading. Mr. Hoffmann, could you
12 rephrase your question.
13 MR. HOFFMANN: Certainly I will.
14 Q. Could you tell the Court, please, Witness, what Mr. Milic did
15 tell you about how and why the SDG came to Western Bosnia?
16 MR. KNOOPS: It's still leading.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's still leading, Mr. Hoffmann. I'll take over.
18 As you testified, Witness, you had a conversation with
19 Miladin Milic. Did he tell you anything about the SDG arriving in
20 Western Bosnian?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Milic told me that before
22 the SDG arrived that they were supposed to arrive. Besides, I saw a copy
23 of the document that was issued after the session of the government of
24 the Republika Srpska which was sent to the government of the Republic of
1 in manpower, weapons, and other equipment.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You said you saw a copy of the document. Could you
3 explain to us how this document came under your eyes?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My superior had a copy of that
5 document. That's when I saw it for the first time. And then again I saw
6 the document here in The Hague
7 Perisic case.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Did Mr. Milic show it to you specifically?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We had known each other from
10 before as civilians, and we were on really good terms.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed. Well, I say please
12 proceed, Mr. Hoffmann, but it's time for a break.
13 If we would resume at ten minutes to 6.00 I would expect you to
14 finish your examination-in-chief still today. Is that correct?
15 MR. HOFFMANN: I will certainly do so.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. We will have a break, and we will
17 resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann, you may proceed.
21 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honour. At this point in time I
22 have no further questions on this particular video, which is 65 ter 2609,
23 and I would tender it into evidence, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Same reservation if, I take it --
25 Madam Registrar, could you please assign a number to the video
1 footage to be marked for identification.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P58 marked for identification,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
6 MR. HOFFMANN: We will now play another clip, this time from 65
7 ter 4270, video ERN V000-1416. And the first that that clip relates --
8 runs from minute 1 to minute 3:59
9 [Video-clip played]
10 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] NV: Sir, the battalion of the
11 Serbian Volunteer Guard is lined up in your honour. Ranks ready for
13 "RK: For the guard and for you as the commander of the guard.
14 "ZRA: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
15 "RK: Gratitude for you being there this is not the end this is
16 the begin:
17 "ZRA: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Would you be so kind
18 as to say a few words.
19 "RK: I am deeply thankful and I congratulate you, and I hope
20 that we will meet again in peace, and you will always have a place in the
21 heart of those who you have defended. Thank you.
22 "ZRA: Mr. President, in the name of the Serbian Volunteer Guard
23 I wish to say two words to you which is that we are ready if you call us
24 and that we will be back to defend our ancient homeland, to defend our
25 women and children, to defend the Serbian territory and our Orthodox
1 religion. Thank you, Mr. President.
2 "RK: Cheers.
3 "ZRA: Very well, Mr. President. We are going back now. I want
4 to thank you once again.
5 "RK: Good-bye."
6 MR. HOFFMANN:
7 Q. Witness, did you have a chance to see that footage before coming
8 to court?
9 A. I had seen that footage even before. This is an excerpt from a
10 documentary called "The Unit." This was a line-up of the Serb Volunteer
11 Guard in Bijeljina, which is in Republika Srpska, which was just prior to
12 their return from Republika Srpska to their base in Erdut.
13 Q. Can you tell the Court when this parade took place?
14 A. This parade took place in 1995, once the combat in the Krajina
15 was over. I think it was in October 1995.
16 Q. And just for the record, if you refer to the combat in the
17 Krajina, which Krajina do you refer to?
18 A. The environs of Prijedor, Sanski Most, Bosanski Petrovac, and
19 Banja Luka. That is what is the Bosnian Krajina territory.
20 Q. Were you present at the ceremony, present in Bijeljina at the
22 A. Yes. I was in Bijeljina. I was returning with my unit to the
23 Republic of Serbia
24 we returned to Serbia
25 Q. Do you recall what Karadzic handed over to Arkan on this clip?
1 A. It was a certificate of thanks of the Government of
2 Republika Srpska to the Serb Volunteers Guard given to the commander
3 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, for his role in the defence of the Krajina.
4 Q. To your knowledge did any other unit, including your own police
5 brigade, receive any such letter?
6 A. My unit, including a battalion of our MP brigade, did not receive
7 such a certificate. We arrived in Republika Srpska in August with a
8 different task, which was to secure a safe withdrawal of the refugees
9 from the Republic of Serbian
11 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, at this point in time Prosecution
12 would tender this clip from 65 ter 4270 into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Same reservation.
14 Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number to this video
15 footage to be marked for identification.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P59 marked for identification,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
20 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honours. And just quickly for --
21 for the ease of reference, the area of Bijeljina could be found in the
22 Map 28 of the court binder of maps. Again I had indication from the
23 Stanisic Defence that there would be no objection to tendering this map
24 into evidence, again it's a purely road map.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is Madam Registrar informed about the 65 ter number
1 of the map?
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's been uploaded.
4 Madam Registrar, that would be number?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P60, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P60 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
7 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Q. Witness, let me take you quickly back to your 2003 statement,
9 P51. You do again refer to paramilitary units in paragraph 52 of that
10 statement. With regard to Arkan's men, the SDG, you do state:
11 "I was there when Zeljko Raznjatovic told his senior and junior
12 commanders he did not want to see a single prisoner. Arkan's men shot at
13 anyone who surrendered."
14 Can you tell the Court when you heard such comment by Arkan?
15 A. It was in 1991, just prior to the final combat for the liberation
16 of Vukovar.
17 Q. Can you give us a bit more detail about at what occasion you did
18 hear Arkan make those -- that statement?
19 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, I do repeat my objection that this is
20 also according to the state of the witness referring to Vukovar, which is
21 not part of the indictment.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to find out, Mr. Hoffmann. I think
23 that the witness said already something about it and you made an
24 observation in this respect.
25 MR. HOFFMANN: Yes. If --
1 JUDGE ORIE: When those words, Witness, were spoken, you said it
2 was just prior to the final combat for the liberation of Vukovar. Could
3 you tell us where that was exactly?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was next to Brsadin, next to a
5 forest called Djerga which was close to the Brsadin Silo towards Borovo
6 Naselje and a location called Luzac. Along the road between Skradin and
7 Borovo Naselje. Luzac is there separating the settlement of Borovo
8 Naselje and Vukovar itself.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you understand those words to apply
10 only for the imminent action in Vukovar, or was he focusing on that, I
11 want to see any prisoners in Vukovar, or was it a kind of general
12 statement? Could you tell us how you understood it at the time?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His unit was sent along the battle
14 axis towards Luzac. He was issuing orders to his officers to the effect
15 that he had no interest in any prisoners.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You said the battle axis towards Luzac. I'll have
17 to find that on the map before I know.
18 MR. HOFFMANN: If I may refer Your Honours to Map 18.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. HOFFMANN: Which is P9 in evidence. It is actually not
21 listed because it's such a small village, but I would just simply ask the
22 witness to confirm that Luzac is just outside Vukovar.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann suggests that Luzac is just outside
24 Vukovar. Is that correct?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Luzac is on the road between
1 Borovo Naselje and Vukovar. It is actually in the outskirts of the city
2 of Vukovar.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: I consulted with my colleagues that even if the
5 observations made even in relation to the operations near Vukovar, that
6 that does not mean that it loses all of its relevance for other
7 situations, and therefore the objection is denied.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
9 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. Now, Witness, I'll -- would like to ask you a couple of questions
11 specifically in relation to the accused, and I want to remind you of what
12 the Presiding Judge said earlier, that if at any time you feel safer
13 giving certain information in closed session, you may so indicate to the
14 Chamber and request that we do move into closed session for a particular
15 aspect of your testimony.
16 I'd like to ask you whether you at any time did ever see the
17 accused Stanisic in person.
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Can you tell the Court when you did see him for the first time?
20 A. I cannot remember the exact date, but I think I saw him the first
21 time in 1991.
22 Q. And where did you see Mr. Stanisic at that time?
23 A. I saw him for the first time in the centre of Erdut.
24 Q. Can you please describe the occasion or the event at which you
25 did see Mr. Stanisic in Erdut in 1991?
1 A. I drove my superior to a meeting in Erdut to see Mr. Badza. I
2 was standing next to my car together with Captain Zeljko Sucic when a
3 vehicle came by. Some people came out and Captain Sucic told me that
4 Jovica Stanisic has arrived.
5 Q. Did you hear from Captain Sucic or from anyone else about the
6 purpose of Stanisic arriving in Erdut?
7 A. He did not say anything about that. I supposed it was because of
8 a meeting or an agreement that was to be discussed.
9 Q. Was Mr. Stanisic arriving on his own or with other people?
10 A. I think there were other -- three or four people accompanying
12 Q. Was there any later occasion on that that you saw Mr. Stanisic in
14 A. Yes, there was.
15 Q. Can you tell the Court when that was?
16 A. Yes, I can, but since I need to mention a name, I would kindly
17 ask that we move into closed session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although the question is about when.
19 Apparently the witness wants to answer the question in the context of
21 We move into private session.
22 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MR. HOFFMANN:
4 Q. Witness, you just indicated that you had seen Mr. Stanisic at one
5 occasion in Duna Street where a convoy was about to leave for the RS and
6 the RSK. Can you tell us what kind of convoy you were referring to?
7 A. A convoy was formed which was meant to supply Republika Srpska
8 and Republika Srpska Krajina. The trucks were loaded with different
9 types of supplies starting with oil, ammunition, cigarettes, equipment,
10 and so on and so forth. My truck was loaded with cigarettes. That was
11 done in a place called Vinca, and then we were supposed to assemble in
12 Dorcula [phoen] Street in Belgrade
13 planned for Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina.
14 Q. Sir, could you tell the Court about when this happened that you
15 did see Mr. Stanisic at this occasion?
16 A. It was sometime in 1994 or 1995. I cannot recall exactly. I
17 took part in several such convoys.
18 Q. Can you describe what Mr. Stanisic did when you saw him at that
20 A. Mr. Stanisic arrived there in a car. The trucks had been parked
21 there, although I don't know exactly how many. I was standing there with
22 a friend of mine who was an SDB employee. I can mention his name if I
23 need to. It is Dragan Miletic, aka Zuca. When the car arrived, he told
24 me that the boss had arrived.
25 Q. Did you see anything that Mr. Stanisic did at the time when he
2 A. He talked to some people, although I don't know who they were. I
3 only know that the group of people he was talking to was joined by a
4 person I knew well since at that time I lived in Surcin. I knew him very
5 well. It was Ljubisa Buha.
6 Q. Did that person, Ljubisa Buha, tell you anything about what
7 Mr. Stanisic said or did?
8 A. No. Since at Vinca two or three trucks were being loaded,
9 Mr. Buha was there overseeing the loading, and then he accompanied us to
10 Duna Street
11 Q. Apart from those occasions that you have described just now, was
12 there at a later stage any other occasion that you did see Mr. Stanisic
13 in person?
14 A. Well, I saw him when we were providing security for the exchange
15 process of UN personnel and those pilots which had been shot down over
16 Republika Srpska, when he went to Republika Srpska to arrange with their
17 government, to arrange for their release. My unit was tasked with
18 providing security between Mali Zvornik and to Koza 4 at Simanovci on the
19 highway to Belgrade
20 Pavkovic. He was in charge of implementing that operation.
21 Q. What time period are we referring to with regard to that
23 A. I think it was around the time when Republika Srpska was being
24 bombed. I cannot recall if it was in 1994 or 1995 with any certainly. I
25 cannot recall exactly since I did not keep any notes about that.
1 Q. Now, turning to the second accused, Frenki Simatovic, did you
2 ever have a chance to see him in person?
3 A. I saw Mr. Frenki Simatovic on a very few occasions, perhaps two
4 or three times and from afar, but I did see him on television before and
5 after that on a few occasions.
6 Q. Can you tell the Court when you for the first time see
7 Mr. Simatovic in person?
8 A. The first time was when I was preparing myself to leave for
10 Q. Can you describe on what specific occasion at those barracks you
11 did see Mr. Simatovic.
12 A. I don't know what the specific reason was for Mr. Simatovic to
13 come to the barracks. At the barracks in Bubanj Potok there were several
14 units at the time. There was the Serbian MUP, the JNA there, as well as
15 certain volunteers who volunteered to go to the Slavonian theatre. I
16 don't know what the reason for his visit to the Bubanj Potok barracks
18 Q. Did you see Mr. Simatovic at the barracks, or was he arriving at
19 a certain time?
20 A. I saw him at the point at which he arrived, and then he went away
21 with some people, perhaps one or two of them. He went to the barracks
22 command at Bubanj Potok.
23 Q. What exactly were you doing at the Bubanj Potok barracks when you
24 refer to preparing yourself to leave for Slavonia and Baranja?
25 A. We were being prepared. We had shooting exercises as well as
1 basic tactical infantry training.
2 Q. Do you know any of the persons that arrived with Mr. Simatovic to
3 the barracks?
4 A. No. I was standing a bit further away from them. From a
5 colleague of mine who was an active policeman in the police brigade, I
6 heard that he had recognised Frenki Simatovic. I never saw him before,
7 and that day when I saw him it was only from a bit far.
8 Q. Later on when you were actually deployed to the area of the SAO
9 SBWS, did you see Mr. Simatovic at any time there?
10 A. I saw him in 1991 in the centre of Erdut, but I can't remember
11 when exactly. I believe that that was towards the end of August or
12 early September 1991. I often came to the centre of Erdut, although my
13 unit was billeted in the village called Vera at the time.
14 Q. Can you describe the occasion at which you saw Mr. Simatovic in
15 1991 in Erdut.
16 A. As I've already said, I can't remember the exact period. I found
17 myself in the training centre of the MUP in Erdut where the staff of the
18 Serb Volunteer Guard and the staff of the TO of Western Slavonia,
19 Baranja, and Srem were stationed. The head was Radovan Stojicic Badza.
20 There were my officers there, and they came for consultations to Erdut.
21 Q. Was it at that time that you did see Mr. Simatovic?
22 A. Yes. I was within the perimeter waiting for my superior, and I
23 saw him arriving in a car. I can't remember the make of the car, whether
24 it was a jeep or a Puh. I really can't remember what it was.
25 Q. Did you later find out whether Mr. Simatovic took part in any of
1 the consultations you mentioned earlier?
2 A. Yes. When I returned to Vera, I spoke to my superior. My
3 superior's name was Vaskovic, and there was also Captain First Class
4 Zeljko Lukic, and I learned from them that Frenki Simatovic had also
5 attended the meeting.
6 Q. Was anything mentioned what the meeting was about?
7 A. No. They actually spoke to each other. There was reference made
8 to him, and later on I did not attend any meetings at the staff. All I
9 know is what I could hear in the jeep as we were travelling from Erdut to
10 Vera on the way back from Erdut.
11 Q. Just for the record, could you tell us, according to your
12 knowledge and what you heard from your superiors, who did attend that
13 meeting with Mr. Simatovic?
14 A. Well, as far as I could overhear, Radovan Stojicic, Badza;
15 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, were present at the meeting. I believe that
16 Major General Bratic was also there, but I can't be sure, and certain
17 commanders of the Territorial Defence who were in charge of the defence
18 of certain villages.
19 Q. Apart from that one meeting in Erdut at sometime in 1991, did you
20 see Mr. Simatovic at another occasion?
21 A. Very briefly at the state security institute, just in passing as
22 I was bringing mail from the field.
23 Q. But apart from that brief seeing Mr. Simatovic at the state
24 security institute, there was no occasion that you did see Mr. Simatovic
25 in the SAO SBWS?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you recall --
3 A. I can only add to that that on three or four occasions only I
4 went there and brought mail.
5 Q. Witness, you have testified that you did see Mr. Simatovic in
6 1991 before leaving to the SAO SBWS in Bubanj Potok at the barracks. Was
7 that the only time you saw him there?
8 A. I saw him once more as men were being transported, perhaps in
9 1994, but I'm not sure, to Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina.
10 Q. What kind of men are you referring to?
11 A. Men who had been in the territory of the Republic of Serbia
12 were militarily able-bodied and did not have the citizenship of the
13 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the citizenship of the Republic of
15 Koza 4 check-point from Surcin to new Belgrade. There I received a
16 dispatch from the MUP saying that anybody who was not in possession of
17 legal citizenship, who hailed from the territory of Bosnia
19 informed thereof, and the police then proceeded to bring them in.
20 Q. Can you describe the occasion on which you did see Mr. Simatovic
21 at the barracks in the context of these men being transported to the RS
22 and the RSK?
23 A. Since I was a professional driver who was assigned to the
24 1st company of the 1st Battalion of the police brigade, and I served in
25 the auto unit, the company had three or four busses, passenger buses. I
1 can't remember when it was when I received a task from my commander, from
2 my company commander to prepare the buses. Together with a colleague of
3 mine, we were supposed to prepare two buses and take them to the barracks
4 in Dugi Potok where we were supposed to place ourselves at the disposal
5 of the commander of the Dugi Potok barracks.
6 Q. Witness, can I ask you to go back to the question. I would
7 simply ask you to explain when and on what occasion you saw Mr. Simatovic
8 at the Bubanj Potok barracks at the time.
9 A. As the convoy was leaving -- or, rather, before the convoy left,
10 Mr. Simatovic came to Dugi Potok and went to the Dugi Potok garrison for
11 a meeting.
12 Q. Did you know how long this meeting lasted?
13 A. No. It lasted perhaps two to three hours, or maybe even longer.
14 Q. Did you see Mr. Simatovic leaving again?
15 A. No. I did not see him at the moment when he got into the car,
16 because people already started boarding the buses, and the officer of the
17 Army of Yugoslavia
18 who was sitting in the same bus with me, Lieutenant Colonel
19 Milos Tomasevic, was standing at the door and the cars zoomed by. I did
20 not observe the moment when Mr. Simatovic got into one of the cars, so I
21 can't give you any detail of the time when that happened.
22 Q. Did you see either or both of the accused at any time after 1995?
23 A. In 1997, at the celebration of the day of the units for special
24 operations which was staged in Kula.
25 Q. Can you tell us where Kula is located?
1 A. Kula is in Backa, in Vojvodina. In Serbia, to be more precise.
2 It belongs to the autonomous province of Vojvodina
3 leading from Novi Sad
4 Q. You --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann, could I seek clarification of one
6 answer. You said you saw at the celebration of the day of the units for
7 special operations in Kula, you saw you saw Mr. Simatovic or Mr. Stanisic
8 or both?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that celebration in Kula I saw
10 Mr. Stanisic as well as Mr. Frenki Simatovic. There was also
11 Mr. Mihajl Kertes who was the director of the federal administration of
12 customs, officers -- President Milosevic and some other personalities as
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You answered my question by telling that you
15 saw them both. Please proceed.
16 MR. HOFFMANN: The Prosecution would now play two clips from a
17 video which is 65 ter 582, video ERN V000-3533, and it's simply done for
18 the witness to confirm that he has reviewed this video before. On this
19 video I do have indication from the Stanisic Defence that there are no
20 objection to the admission of this video. Giving the current
21 circumstances, I do not have a clear indication from the
22 Simatovic Defence, but I would first play those two clips. The first
23 clip is running from minute 5:10
24 shows the arrival of Slobodan Milosevic.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] SM: It's a lovely day."
2 MR. HOFFMANN: And then we have a second clip which runs from
3 minute 9:02 to 10:40
4 number of members of the unit for special operations JSO.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] ZI: Mr. President, veterans of
7 the Special Operations Unit of the Republic of Serbia State Security are
8 lined up for inspection. Colonel Zika Ivanovic reporting.
9 "SM: Hello Ivanovic.
10 "ZI: Mr. President, allow me to introduce the unit's veteran
11 officers. Mr. President, Colonel Radojica Bozovic.
12 "SM: Hello Bozovic. I read those reports of yours.
13 "RB: Thank you. God forbid there should be more of them.
14 "ZI: Colonel Vasilije Mijovic.
15 "SM: Pleased to meet you.
16 "ZI: Colonel Goran Opacic.
17 "SM: Hello.
18 "ZI: Colonel Predrag Prica.
19 "SM: Pleased to meet you.
20 "ZI: Lieutenant-colonel Zvezdan Jovanovic.
21 "Lieutenant colonel Simo Ratkovic.
22 "SM: Pleased to meet you.
23 "Lieutenant-colonel, pilot, Milutin Radivojevic.
24 "SM: Pleased to meet you.
25 "ZI: Major Filipovic.
1 "SM: Hello, Major.
2 "ZI: Major Davor Subotic.
3 "SM: Hello."
4 MR. HOFFMANN:
5 Q. Witness, are these two clips just played now in court to you part
6 of the video that you had a chance to view earlier on?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And having reviewed the video at full length, are you familiar
9 with the content of the video?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you attend the celebration in Kula yourself?
12 A. Yes. However, the manpower of the unit of the police brigade was
13 assigned to provide security for the road from Belgrade to Kula. I was
15 Q. Did you say you were there, or do you refer to the Kula camp as
17 A. Yes. I was near -- or to be more precise, within the perimeter
18 of the Stolc [phoen] barracks on a hilltop near Kula after I had brought
19 the manpower by bus to Kula.
20 Q. Let me clarify that. Is that to be understood that you were on
21 the area of the Kula camp itself?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is the video we've seen and which you have reviewed earlier on,
24 is that the celebration you did testify that you did see Mr. Simatovic
25 and Mr. Stanisic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Having seen the entire video, would you say that the video is
3 authentic in its report of that celebration at the Kula camp in 1997?
4 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, I was made understood by the witness
5 that he was not with the ceremony itself but merely on the premises and
6 therefore not at the ceremony celebrations itself.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
8 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, I tried to be very brief after I had
9 indication from the Stanisic Defence that there would be no objection to
10 the admission of the entire video into evidence. However, when the
11 witness was shown the video, he did indeed, you know, was able to make
12 more comments, and that could be done if need be, but it was always my
13 understanding since actually the filing of the Stanisic Defence pre-trial
14 brief that there is no issue about the authenticity of that video.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any authenticity issue involved in this
16 video, Mr. Knoops?
17 MR. KNOOPS: Not at such, but we were under the impression
18 that --
19 JUDGE ORIE: That was my question.
20 Mr. Hoffmann, what are you seeking to establish at this moment
21 with this question?
22 MR. HOFFMANN: I simply want to establish that the witness did
23 see the entire video.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. HOFFMANN: He was present at the Kula camp at the time of
1 the celebration --
2 JUDGE ORIE: He testified that already, yes.
3 MR. HOFFMANN: He did not attend some parts of the meeting.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. HOFFMANN: But he has knowledge about --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. HOFFMANN: -- what happened on that day.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's put the question so to the witness.
9 Did you see anything on this video, Mr. Kovacevic, which is
10 inconsistent with what you experienced when you were there at that
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I brought the manpower to Kula, and
13 then from Kula to the Stolc barracks. People were assigned by their
14 officers. I brought the bus, and I parked it at the Stolc barracks.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you there. When you watched the
16 video, was there anything you saw on that video thinking back to that
17 occasion where you were at the Kula camp of which you'd be surprised that
18 that may have been a video of that occasion, anything which was not
19 fitting into what is in your memory about that day and that occasion.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I didn't see anything that is
21 not consistent with my recollection of the day. I was only surprised to
22 see the technical equipment that that unit possessed.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
24 MR. HOFFMANN: Prosecution would tender this entire video into
25 evidence, that is 65 ter 582.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Same reservation, I take it.
2 MR. KNOOPS: In this circumstance we don't have objection to this
3 particular exhibit. So --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, to the video.
5 MR. KNOOPS: The video as such, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Video as such.
7 Mr. Domazet, any objections against this video in its entirety to
8 be admitted into evidence?
9 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot say anything
10 about that. I will leave it to you to decide, but I believe that you
11 have not understood the witness. He was in a different barracks. He was
12 not at the Luga -- Kula camp. He was not an eyewitness, but when it
13 comes to the footage it is definitely authentic.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So there's no issue as far as the
15 authenticity is concerned, but you have some concerns on the
16 understanding of the testimony of the witness.
17 Were you on that day on the premises of the Kula camp in
18 whatever --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the camp itself, in the
20 very camp.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Earlier in your question you were talking
22 about area of the Kula camp which was not unambiguous, Mr. Hoffmann.
23 Thank you for that answer.
24 No authenticity concerns.
25 Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned would be?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P61, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P61 is admitted into evidence.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
4 MR. HOFFMANN:
5 Q. Given the time that we have reached now, I would rather stop my
6 examination-in-chief, and with Your Honours leave when the time comes may
7 ask for additional questions.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You asked for two hours, and you said it could be
9 less if there would be no problems in relation to the supplemental
10 information sheet, which means that -- and there were problems, so I took
11 it that you would need two hours.
12 I think that you used two hours, but we could verify that.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: You used a little bit over two hours, Mr. Hoffmann.
15 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you for that clarification. However, the
16 initial estimate of two hours was made before we knew about the evidence
17 that, you know, he was able to give this week, and I was certainly trying
18 to get all the issues on examination-in-chief done before 7.00 today.
19 However, given the fact that there were a couple of objections and a
20 couple of discussions on the -- as well on the proofing notes as well as
21 on the exhibits, I think if and when the witness would have to return, at
22 the time I would maybe ask for an additional 10 or 15 minutes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You're talking about 10 or 15 minutes. The Chamber
24 will consider that and at least it's clear that you want to finish your
25 examination-in-chief as the matter stands now at this moment. In view of
1 the --
2 Yes, Mr. Hoffman.
3 MR. HOFFMANN: Just one little technical matter. I was informed
4 that Exhibit P54 has been uploaded again into e-court without the ICTY
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information.
7 Mr. Groome.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would seek a clarification with
9 respect to your ruling dealing with trace markings of other cases on
10 documents. You made it on, I think, page 35 of today's transcript.
11 While I certainly agree and see the merit in ensuring that witnesses work
12 with original documents, it seems to me that different principles should
13 apply when the exhibits are part of a 92 ter package, it seems to me that
14 the more proper thing for the Prosecution would be to produce as
15 faithfully as possible the actual exhibit if --
16 JUDGE ORIE: If exhibits are presented as exhibits closely
17 related to transcript of testimony in other cases where it's clear that
18 we're more or less importing evidence from other cases, then there might
19 be less problems. The only thing I wanted to point at that we should
20 avoid that we're already on documents we often have authenticity stamps
21 or stamps received there and there that we are flooded with all kind of
22 stamps also stamps which are totally irrelevant for the probative value
23 of the document, that is that these documents have been used elsewhere.
24 But I see your point, and I'll discuss it with my colleagues that there
25 is less of a problem if the exhibits are introduced from another case.
1 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Any further matter?
3 Mr. Kovacevic -- well, first of all, Mr. Knoops, in view of the
4 time it's of no use to invite you to see whether -- or even to encourage
5 you to see whether there's any possible start for cross-examination.
6 I'll explain the situation to Mr. Kovacevic.
7 Mr. Kovacevic, it's not the first time that you are in a
8 courtroom in The Hague
9 the party that called you as a witness that you would be cross-examined
10 by the other party. Now, for various reasons unrelated to you, for
11 various reasons, the Defence, both the Stanisic and the Simatovic
12 Defence, would need more time to prepare for such cross-examination,
13 which means since that more time could be up to weeks or even month that
14 you'll not be cross-examined at this moment. Therefore, you will be
15 called at a later stage to come back to The Hague in order to be
16 cross-examined. This also means that meanwhile you should not discuss
17 with anyone your testimony. Under normal circumstances that's only for
18 the next day, but for you it could be a considerable period of time in
19 which you are instructed not to speak with anyone, not to discuss your
20 testimony, whether testimony you already gave today or whether testimony
21 still to be given when being cross-examined. Is that clear to you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I simply ask that given the
25 concerns that he expressed earlier that you also advise him that should
1 anyone contact him in what way that feels is inappropriate, that he
2 should feel free to contact VWS.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for this suggestion.
4 Mr. Kovacevic, if you experience anything of being
5 inappropriately being approached by anyone in relation to your testimony
6 here, you're perfectly free, and you're even invited, encouraged, and
7 urged to immediately contact the Victims and Witness Section of this
8 Tribunal. Is that clear to you as well?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I will ask Madam Usher to escort you out of the
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn, I would like to make one comment.
14 Mr. Simatovic, you addressed the Chamber, and as I said earlier
15 there was no need to have it filed, but if you prefer to have it filed
16 that it could be done through Mr. Domazet.
17 Now, the Chamber meanwhile could have a look at the filing. In
18 the filing you'll present yourself as being unrepresented. That is not
19 the present situation. You still are represented by Mr. Domazet, and
20 therefore Mr. Domazet should have signed that submission, that filing,
21 because to act on your own the Chamber may allow you to do so, and we
22 invited you to address us yesterday, we invited to address us today, so
23 there's nothing long with that, but on paper it's still Mr. Domazet who
24 represents you. And of course if there would be any problem, but here I
25 couldn't imagine any problem because it was the literal text apparently
1 you had prepared just to be filed again. There was no real need to do
2 that, because it's already on the transcript, but I just want to avoid
3 whatever misunderstanding of your present situation, that is that you're
4 still at this moment represented by Mr. Domazet. The Chamber hopes that
5 early next week that there will be a possibility to work out your future
6 Defence team and that we find an acceptable solution for the transitional
7 period. I do understand that the proposal also includes solutions for
8 examination of witnesses. We hope -- we'll ask OLAD to keep us updated
9 on any developments, and as I said before, the Chamber is willing to
10 facilitate solutions by either considering to adapt to some extent the
11 court schedule and also to see whether it can promote further cooperation
12 between Prosecution and Defence in order to organise the presentation of
13 evidence in such a way that the difficulties you're facing at this moment
14 will be less.
15 We'll not sit as scheduled next week. The Chamber will issue a
16 Scheduling Order when we will proceed, but as matters stand now, the
17 parties should keep in the back of their mind that we would proceed as
18 scheduled before apart from the two days next week, but the Chamber will
19 inform the parties about any further scheduling issues.
20 I would like to thank the interpreters, transcribers, and whoever
21 is assisting us, including security, for again allowing six additional
23 We stand adjourned.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.
25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day
1 of September, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.