1 Tuesday, 1 December 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused Simatovic entered court]
4 [The accused Stanisic appears via videolink]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.34 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Everyone in the
8 courtroom. This is case number IT-03-69-T. The Prosecutor versus
9 Stanisic and Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Let's first establish
11 whether the videolink is functioning well.
12 Mr. Stanisic, can you hear me and can you see me?
13 THE ACCUSED STANISIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can hear
14 you and see you well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stanisic, we'll first deal with the
16 reports we received today. The Chamber received a non-attendance in
17 court form, which is mentioned that Mr. Stanisic doesn't feel well enough
18 to attend court, that he doesn't waive his right to be present in court,
19 but that he has decided that he would use the video conference room at
20 the NDO which enables him to follow what happens in court and to
21 communicate with counsel through a direct telephone line.
22 Then Dr. Eekhof has prepared a report. There was no necessity to
23 do that under the ruling of the Court how to proceed, but nevertheless we
24 received it and we are happy with it.
25 Is there any need to further make further submissions in relation
1 to the medical report which was -- which is or will be filed today, the
2 report of Dr. Eekhof?
3 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honours, thank you very much. Defence is
4 alerted to paragraph 1 of the report. I think this is also the reason
5 why despite there was no requirement to file a new report, such report
6 was nonetheless filed. We went to see the defendant this morning and
7 were notified that the session yesterday was very exhaustive for him, and
8 we observed that in view of Dr. Eekhof opinion, he suggests that the
9 daily period should be limited to 3 hours instead of the 4 and a half
10 hours yesterday. So we simply would like to draw the attention of the
11 Court to this paragraph 1. And from a practical point of view, also in
12 view of the protection of the health of the accused, we would suggest to
13 the Court to maybe re-evaluate or re-assess after 3 hours the situation
14 with Mr. Stanisic whether he feels well enough to continue until 7.00.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Knoops. Mr. Stanisic, as I said
16 yesterday to you, whenever you feel that you need a break or whenever you
17 feel that continuing would be too heavy for you, you may address the
18 Chamber and the Chamber will then decide, of course dependent on your
19 submissions and also with the knowledge of the medical reports that have
20 been delivered until now. That is also one of the reasons why I asked
21 you yesterday at a certain moment whether you would still be -- whether
22 you felt that you would still be able to continue. Please feel free to
23 address the Chamber in this respect, and it goes without saying that the
24 Chamber takes proper notice of the content of the report, including the
25 first and the last paragraph of Dr. Eekhof's today's report.
1 No questions, Mr. Knoops, may I take it then, no questions for
2 Dr. Eekhof which would require that he would come to the courtroom, but I
3 do understand that he is willing to do so and the Chamber is considering
4 for the near future that if there would be any questions, whether this
5 could be done by a telephone line which then could be connected to a
6 loud-speaker so everyone can follow questions and answers.
7 MR. KNOOPS: We have no questions today for Dr. Eekhof,
8 Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that the Simatovic Defence as not
10 directly involved in the matter has no questions either.
12 MR. GROOME: No questions, Your Honour, but I would point out to
13 the Chamber in paragraph 5 there seems to a comment by Dr. Eekhof
14 regarding whether or not Mr. Stanisic clearly understands how to use the
15 telephone, it might be prudent to check with counsel that he is able to
16 communicate via the telephone.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think we tested it yesterday, but if there's
18 any -- we have two matters. The first is the switching on and off the
19 microphone so that we can hear Mr. Stanisic.
20 Mr. Stanisic, is it clear to you that you at any time can just
21 use the phone and get in touch with Mr. Knoops or Mr. Jordash?
22 THE ACCUSED STANISIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I
23 understand this, but I didn't want to interrupt the session for
24 scrupulous reasons.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If you feel that there's any need to do so, do not
1 hesitate to use this telephone line which is available to you.
2 Then we have still from yesterday we have two outstanding
3 exhibits. The first is Exhibit P94 which was MFI'd and which I do now
4 understand has been uploaded in it's redacted version, which would mean
5 that there are no further objections to P94 in its presently uploaded
6 version? The reference to Arkan's men has been taken out.
7 MR. JORDASH: No objections.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then since the Simatovic Defence has joined, I take
9 it that there's no objection. I'll make it a practice that if one of the
10 counsels says that there's no objection, that if another counsel thinks
11 that he should object, that I -- that this first observation triggers a
12 time-limit of three seconds in which the other counsel can raise any
13 objections, otherwise, the Chamber will assume that there are no
14 objections. Who is first and who is second, we'll see. P94 is admitted
15 into evidence.
16 Mr. Bakrac, in relation to P89 you said you would again consider
17 whether there would be any objections.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we don't have any
19 objection to the admission of this document. We have received
20 information from the OTP as to how this document was obtained. However,
21 we still object to the probative value of this document, but of course
22 this is no hindrance for the document to be admitted into evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If a document has no probative value at all, it is a
24 matter of admissibility. If there's a challenge to the weight to be
25 given to it, it is a matter of weight and not of admission.
1 I take it that you have some doubts as to the -- how much
2 probative value is in there. P89 is admitted into evidence.
3 Then although there are one or two procedural matters still to be
4 raised, I would do that close to the break and not at this very moment.
5 Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Mr. Hadzovic. I
8 would like to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn
9 declaration that you have given yesterday at the beginning of your
10 testimony, that is that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and
11 nothing but the truth.
12 Mr. Jordash, are you ready to continue your cross-examination.
13 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes, thank you.
14 WITNESS: EDIN
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]
17 Q. Good afternoon.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. Just a few more questions, probably around 30 minutes, from
20 myself. I wanted to, if I can, return to your statement 11th of August,
22 MR. JORDASH: Can I have this brought up on the screen please,
23 03000522. And if we could have the statement in the witness's language,
24 please. Thanks.
25 Q. Now, let us return to the paragraph we were looking at yesterday
1 and if you recall, we were dealing with Milan Kerkez formerly employed at
2 the Izbor cold storage plant. Paragraph 3. Can you see that? It's in
3 the English version at least about ten lines into the paragraph. Have
4 you found that? If you see it says a certain -- the statement is dealing
5 with the guards at the Percin Disco. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes, yes, I can see that.
7 Q. And is it right that you - if you recall from yesterday -
8 confirmed that one of the guards was Slavko, and one of the guards was
9 Milan Kerkez who was a local man employed at the cold storage plant; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And at the time of your statement you confirmed this is right,
13 that Kerkez, this local man, was a trainer at that time of the
14 Red Berets; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is it right that you confirmed that Zika Majkic [sic] was
17 also a guard at the Percin Disco?
18 A. Zika was the owner of the coffee bar next to the disco. He came
19 home, he moved out things from his house. He was not a guard but he wore
20 a red beret.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that maybe due to the pronunciation that
22 there is a mal-communication. I think you asked about Zika Mikic.
23 MR. JORDASH: Yes, that's right.
24 JUDE ORIE: Yes. And I think that the witness understood the
25 question as relating to Cicak. I'm not quite certain about that, but the
1 question was about Zika Mikic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zika Mikic.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, was he also a guard at the Percin Disco?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But he did come there every
5 night because his house was there, he was the owner of the adjacent
6 coffee bar, and he was always there in that coffee bar.
7 MR. JORDASH:
8 Q. But, can you see, have a look closely at the statement where it
9 says, and I'll read it to you, I'll read it to you so you can follow me:
10 "There were occasional visits from Milan Kerkez, formerly
11 employed at the Izbor cold storage plant and now a trainer of the
12 Red Berets, and Ziko Mikic, who also wears a red beret."
13 What was it you were saying at that point about Zika Mikic,
15 A. When I provided that statement, the Judge who was examining me
16 asked me to provide the name of those who moved around Percin Disco. I
17 didn't say that he was a guard. I only said that he arrived there
18 because his establishment was there, and he wore a camouflage uniform as
19 well as a red beret. That's what I said, and that's how I'm reading it
20 in this document before me. It says that he came there and that he wore
21 a uniform and --
22 Q. So he was dressed in camouflage with a red beret, even though he
23 wasn't a guard at the disco?
24 A. I don't know where he was a guard, but he arrived there because
25 next to the disco there was a coffee bar that he owned, and that he ran
1 before the war. And he came to inspect the premises to see whether
2 something had been taken, and he also moved out things from the coffee
3 bar; they were his.
4 Q. Do you know why he was dressed in camouflage with a red beret?
5 Do you have any idea about that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So this was a local man who you knew?
8 A. Yes, yes. I spent quite some time sitting in his cafe.
9 Q. Right. And he presumably knew some of the guards who were
10 guarding you, is that correct, who were also local men?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Dressed similarly in camouflage with red berets?
13 A. Guards? They were mixed. Some wore red berets, if you are
14 talking about the disco. In the disco, we were guarded by guards
15 sporting red berets, and then there was a school next to the disco in a
16 place called Plane, and there were lads, I don't know how old they were.
17 I would see them through the window, and I would see them every morning
18 training, exercising with weapons, crawling, running, they were
19 exercising in the morning.
20 Q. Right. And you knew some of them? You recognized some of them?
21 A. Among the guards?
22 Q. Yes, these people you saw exercising, these people who you saw --
23 A. No, it was at a distance so we could not see them well. The
24 disco had very small, dimmed windows, and we could only see them walking
25 by in the morning, in the evening, and then we could also see them
1 exercising in the morning for an hour or two hours.
2 Q. Did Zika Mikic know Milan Kerkez?
3 A. I really don't know. Believe me, I don't.
4 Q. Did Milan Kerkez wear camouflage and a red beret?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Let's go on a bit further in the statement. You talk about the
7 guards beating up -- I'm looking at the next sentence that we've just
8 been -- from what we've just been looking at:
9 "Every evening the guards would beat up a number of prisoners,
10 especially those who had been born in Jovovac [phoen] or Dragalovci..."
12 A. Dragalovci, yes.
13 Q. The guards would recognise people from these two towns, villages,
14 and select them for beating, is that how it happened?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. For example, as you -- this statement notes: "Nearly every day
17 they beat up a certain Krizic, whom I know to have worked in the tax
18 authority." Is that what you told the investigators?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So these were local guards picking out local people for reasons
21 to do with their ethnicity?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the local men who beat up Krizic, were they wearing
24 camouflage with red berets?
25 A. Let me tell you, those guards would usually get drunk in the
1 evening and they would enter the premises, and they beat us up. There
2 was one man whom I knew as Dragan from the village of Ljebelje
3 standing out in all that. I don't know why he did it, but he used his
4 feet, his boot-clad feet, and he beat that man who had been brought in
5 his pajamas from the hospital. I know that that man had been retired
6 from the work of the SDB, he was a Muslim from Doboj who had undergone an
7 operation to have a pacemaker installed. And I know that he suffered
8 most beating from this guy Dragan.
9 Q. Perhaps I should make myself clear, I'm not disputing that these
10 things happened, just so you understand where I'm coming from. And I
11 appreciate that this was a horrible experience for you.
12 The man you've just mentioned, Dragan, did he wear camouflage
13 with a red beret?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Looking back at the statement that you wrote or that you gave at
16 this time, you mention some more guards there, Bato Misic, one of the
17 people who was doing the questioning. Can you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And he worked, is this correct, at the SUP?
20 A. I don't remember the exact date, and I don't want to read now,
21 but on that day, five or six inspectors came from the MUP and for the
22 first time ever they spoke to us and they discussed with us why we were
23 imprisoned. Among them there was Slobodan Dujakovic, Braco Stankovic,
24 Sinisa Lopandic, Branislav Petricevic, and the others. They were police
25 officers, MUP inspectors, they were in plain clothes.
1 Q. And you, reading on through your statement, you refer to a
2 Zoran Pavlovic who probably worked as an investigating judge occasionally
3 coming to the camp; is that right?
4 A. He was a schoolmate of mine, and yes, he did come to the camp.
5 Q. Do you know why he came to the camp, did you observe -- was he
6 part of the local guards?
7 A. No, he wasn't a guard. He came he came -- well, maybe not daily
8 but every other day. He was in uniform, and he was driven there by a
9 chauffeur, and he had a list on him. He would take away one or two
10 prisoners with that vehicle to Doboj. Whether for interrogation or
11 something else, I don't know, but before the war he worked at the court.
12 He was the head of the Registry, that is, he was a lawyer by training. I
13 don't know what he did during the war. I suppose that he also worked for
14 the court.
15 Q. Thank you. Just moving on down the statement to the next
16 paragraph, if you just read the next paragraph to yourself quickly.
17 A. I don't know which paragraph you mean.
18 Q. Starts off with:
19 "From the prisoners of this camp, the Serbian army formed the
20 following groups:"
21 A. All right.
22 Q. And in that paragraph I've just asked you to read, you talk of
23 the groups being formed and one group being led by sergeant
24 Nenad Sitnicic, S-i-t-n-i-c-i-c.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is it correct that groups were formed and then they would be put
2 under the command of certain JNA soldiers and then the groups would be
3 led off to do various tasks?
4 A. Nenad Sitnicic worked for the post office at Doboj, and he was a
5 sergeant in the reserve forces. And they formed groups. Initially they
6 took volunteers. And one of these groups went to round up live cattle
7 and take them to, say, Meso Promet [phoen]; and the other group would go
8 out to the villages to collect carcasses or dead human bodies to prevent
10 Q. Thank you, and what did Sergeant Sitnicic wear? What was his
11 uniform, if any?
12 A. He also wore a camouflage uniform like everybody else, but he
13 didn't wear a red beret. He wore a camouflage beret, the same pattern as
14 the uniform.
15 Q. Thank you. Moving to the next paragraph, please. Did you tell
16 the investigator that on the 12th of July, 1992, during the attack on
17 Doboj, two buses full of Serbian policemen drove up to the front of this
18 prison while the men from Knin came in a bus of the DP Doboj? Is that
20 A. Yes, that's what I stated.
21 Q. The men from Knin, are these the men you referred to as Knindzes?
22 Or were these --
23 A. Yes, that's what people called them. The Knindzes, I don't know
24 where they were from.
25 Q. And these were a separate group to those you call the Red Berets,
1 or were they the same?
2 A. It was all the same to us.
3 Q. It was all the same to you because they were all wearing -- or
4 many of them were wearing camouflage and red berets, is that fair?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. All mixed up, some wearing just camouflage, some wearing
7 camouflage plus red berets?
9 Q. Let me take you to the next paragraph, please. We are -- or the
10 statement is dealing with when the -- you were taken out to be used as a
11 human shield. You see that?
12 A. Yes, I see that.
13 Q. And you talk of the Serbian army ordering your group to form up
14 in five ranks of ten men each; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that Serbian army consisted of the men you've told us about,
17 some in camouflage, some in camouflage and red berets all mixed up?
18 A. The ones who took us out of the camp, from the disco itself, wore
19 camouflage uniforms and red berets, and among them was the man they
20 called Crnogorac, he took us out, and we were made to go to the church
21 and we were forced to undress. And then we lined up, and he killed one
22 from the group, Kalem. He shot a bullet into the back of his head, as an
23 example for the others, for them to see what would happen to anyone who
24 would try to escape.
25 Q. Okay. I'll come back to that in a short while. Just to return
1 to the question of the men who took you out at the time to use you as
2 this human shield, were they mixed up, some in camouflage, some in
3 camouflage plus red berets?
5 and when we arrived at the positions, there were military police and
6 reservists, and whatnot, to defend the line.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you.
8 Now, just moving to the end of this statement, please, the last
9 paragraph. I just want to deal quickly while we are at the statement
10 with some remarks made at the end. And I'm looking at four or five lines
11 from the bottom of the second-to-last paragraph, the paragraph which
12 deals with this particular crime against you. Can you find the sentence
13 which begins: "When we reached the direction of Matuzici, we swam across
14 the Usora." Can you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then it goes on, we were then in free territory. We were
17 picked up by members of the Matuzici branch police station of the Doboj
18 public security station.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who were the members of this police station? What were their
22 A. Muslims.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to take you now to another statement that
24 you made which is dated the 30th of November 2007. 0635-3651.
25 MR. JORDASH: This, again, Your Honours, has not been given a
1 exhibit or Rule 65 ter number as far as I am aware. It's a statement not
2 relied upon by the Prosecution.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then I take it that you have a number under
4 which you uploaded it into e-court.
5 MR. JORDASH: The Prosecution kindly uploaded it for us.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution did it for you. What's then the
7 number? Because the Registrar needs at least the -- let me just check.
8 MR. HOFFMANN: I think it's already on the screen. Mr. Jordash
9 gave the ERN which I think [overlapping speakers]... was to identify it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Yes, Mr. Registrar, that would receive number -- but that's the
12 new record of this interview. Has the previous been ...
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we move to the new one, Mr. Jordash, I think
15 the previous one has not been tendered, was it? You have put quite a lot
16 of questions on it.
17 MR. JORDASH: If it's Your Honours wish, I'm content to tender it
18 as an exhibit.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Would that meet any objection, Mr. Hoffmann?
20 MR. HOFFMANN: No, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Especially, Mr. Jordash, you asked the witness to
22 read for himself certain portions of that. The record would lack
23 transparency if we would then hear the answers to questions related to a
24 document which is not in evidence.
25 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, I think it was the 11th of August,
2 1992, interview.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, that's correct. And just for
4 the record, the original B/C/S of the statement was 0202-7929. I believe
5 counsel had referred to the number for the translation. That becomes
6 Exhibit D4. The second document which is number 0635-3651, becomes
7 Exhibit D5.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The second document is then the record of witness
9 interview which is on our screen now, which has not been tendered. But
10 D4 apparently should be in evidence. I hear Mr. Hoffmann has already
11 expressed that he has no objections. Mr. Bakrac, you're silent. D4 is
12 admitted into evidence. This document -- let's first see what happens
13 before. And then you tender it if it makes sense do so.
14 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
15 Q. Do you recall giving a witness interview to the war crimes
16 investigation centre Ministry of Security?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you recall? And do you recall doing that on the 30th of
19 November, 2007?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you recall in which trial that was in relation to? Do you
22 know why you gave the statement?
23 A. I believe it was for the trial at Sarajevo of Predrag Kujundzic.
24 Q. Thank you. And I want to take you to just some portions to see
25 if I can obtain clarity on a few issues. Not many.
1 MR. JORDASH: Can I ask you please to turn to page 6 of the
2 English version, and what I'm hoping to find is the paragraph that begins
4 "At the beginning of 1992..."
5 Q. So if you just have a look at that on the screen.
6 A. Which paragraph?
7 Q. It begins with:
8 "At the beginning of 1992, there are indications that strange
9 events were afoot in Doboj ..." Do you see that? "... because we
10 started encountering strange men dressed in various uniforms with various
12 MR. HOFFMANN: Just if I may assist, I think it's on page 5 of
13 the English document.
14 MR. JORDASH: It's on page 6 of mine somehow.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Starts on page 5.
16 MR. JORDASH: I hope we are looking at the same thing.
17 Q. Can you find that, Mr. Witness?
18 A. Yes, I found it.
19 Q. And is it right that you told the investigators in relation to
20 that trial that at the beginning of 1992 you started encountering strange
21 men dressed in various uniforms with various insignia?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And as time went on -- as this paragraph goes on: "As time went
24 on, there were more and more of them seen in public." Is that correct?
25 Is that what you said to the investigator?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. "As time went on, there were more of them ... in public. By
3 April the barricades started coming up." Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. "And at that time it was said there were some kind of military
6 formations in Doboj, such as the Red Berets, White Eagles." Is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Arkan's men and Knindzes; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Some from Mount Ozren
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The men from Mount Ozren
14 and the White Eagles, and Arkan's men, Martic's men and Knindzes; is that
15 what you were saying to the investigator at the time?
16 A. People came from Ozren who wore Sajkaca hats, and they wore
17 military uniforms with cockades, and they were unshaven. So they
18 descended from Mount Ozren
19 Q. They were local men who lived in Mount Ozren?
20 A. Yes. And they came down from the mountain dressed in JNA
21 military uniforms, and they wore Sajkaca hats with cockades.
22 Q. Can you describe what a Sajkaca hat is, please.
23 A. It's a folk hat worn by Serbs. It's part of the folk costume.
24 It's worn by many people.
25 Q. Did they continue to wear those hats, or did they replace them
1 with berets?
2 A. They wore Sajakacas, some of them. Others wore fur hats. They
3 didn't wear the same uniforms all the time, at least while I was there.
4 Whether things changed later in Doboj, I don't know.
5 Q. Did any of them wear red berets at any time?
6 A. I never saw any.
7 Q. Okay. Let me read out --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to avoid confusion. You are talking about
9 Red Berets, White Eagles, Arkan's men, Martic's men, and Knindzes, and
10 people from Mount Ozren
11 traditional hats, cockades on them, fur hats. Were you referring to one
12 of these groups? Were you referring to the Mount Ozren
13 would that include White Eagles, Red Berets, et cetera? So the
14 description that you just gave.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't get the drift
16 of your question. I don't understand. I cannot really reply that they
17 were altogether.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In your statement you -- as a matter of fact
19 you refer to it because you said "at the time it was said that there were
20 some kind of military formations." And then you mentioned seven, six or
21 seven different groups, apparently it was said that they were there.
22 Now, in your testimony, two or three minutes ago, you described in some
23 detail, as you said, "those who came down from the mountain," I
24 understood Mount Ozren
25 dressed, that is the traditional hats, cockades on it, some of them
1 wearing fur hats.
2 Now, when you described this, how they were dressed, were you
3 describing all of them or just one of the groups, one of the six, seven
4 groups you mentioned earlier?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to one group only.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And that was the Mount Ozren group?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
9 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
10 Q. Just returning to the statement, if I can, the statement notes:
11 "They were all billeted in the 4th July barracks in the
12 settlement of Miljkovac in Doboj, I think you confirmed that to us
13 yesterday; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. And the statement goes on "I know that in this period, the
16 military commander in Doboj was Milovan Stankovic." Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the statement goes on:
19 "I also know that in addition to the above formations, several
20 groups were also subsequently active in Doboj. Among them were
21 Predini vukovi under the command of Predrag Kujundzic."
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That is correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. "They were also under the command of Milovan Stankovic."
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So as far as you, a citizen, were concerned, these paramilitary
3 groups were under the command of the JNA commander Stankovic?
4 A. Yes, to me as a regular citizen who looked upon the Serb army and
5 various formation -- various of its formations, yes.
6 Q. And that was, I suggest, well known to the local population? It
7 was something that was discussed amongst the citizens, who was in charge
8 of all --
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. -- these horrible paramilitary groups?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. JORDASH: If I can turn to what is page 9 in the English
14 version. And again if we can -- I am sorry to jump around the
15 chronology, but it's necessary with the different statements. But if you
16 find the paragraph which begins: "On 19th of June, 1992 ..." then we can
17 situate ourselves. "19th of June, 1992, the Serbian soldiers carried out
18 a roll-call." Probably page 8 or page 9, I think. Page 8. Thank you.
19 Q. Do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So we are dealing, aren't we, with the time that you were taken
22 to the Percin's Disco? 19th of June, that would be the time.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And if I can ask you to confirm, I think one, two, three, four,
25 five, six, seven lines down from the beginning of that paragraph where it
1 says: "We were guarded by Red Berets." Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if you read further down the page, and it says:
4 "A man called Zoran treated us exceptionally badly." Can you see
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Zoran was one of the guards who treated you exceptionally badly;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you knew him because he came from the village of - excuse my
11 pronunciation - Ljeb? L-j-e-b.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And turning to the next page:
14 "Late in the afternoon of the 12th of July..." Can you find that
15 paragraph, please.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the paragraph begins with:
18 "Late in the afternoon, the 12th of July, 1992, we heard loud
19 shooting and saw through the window some kind of commotion among the
20 guards." And then the paragraph goes on to describe how Red Berets came
21 into the at the detainees quarters. Can you see that? Is that what
22 happened, Mr. Witness?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And, again, when they came in, they -- one of them said he needed
25 fifty volunteers, but amongst the Serbian soldiers, you recognised some
1 men once again; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Milan Kerkez, one of them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Nenad Markovic [sic]?
6 A. Markocevic.
7 Q. Thank you. These were part of the locals who were part of the
8 Red Berets?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. And it is also correct, let me just take you further
11 down the same paragraph, where -- can you find where you start referring
12 to Predrag Kujundzic? Can you see that in the same paragraph? The
13 sentence says:
14 "Next to the --
15 A. Yes, I can see that, yes.
16 Q. Predrag Kujundzic was the leader of which group?
17 A. Well, he was the leader of the Red Beret group. I don't know
18 them, but when we were chased out by them, they were already down there
19 near the APC
20 arrive. They wanted us to lead the way, and then they would either
21 follow behind us or walk by our side.
22 Q. And wasn't this man the leader of an organisation called the
23 wolves, the White Wolves?
24 A. Who? I didn't understand your question, I'm sorry.
25 Q. It's okay. Predrag, was he the leader of an organisation called
1 the Preda's Wolves, his organisation, his formation was called
2 Preda's Wolves; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And these were local men also, is that correct, as was Predrag?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And they all wore camouflage with red berets as well; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Out of all this military formation, who was it -- were you able
10 to identify who it was, was not wearing red berets? Which groups, if
11 any, were not wearing red berets? We've heard about the group from
12 Mount Ozren
13 A. You mean in town or at the moment when they took us out and made
14 us act as a human shield?
15 Q. Sorry, I should be clearer. In the town, billeted at the
17 A. There were also brown berets in town. There were some of them
18 wearing black berets, and that would be all I know about berets.
19 Q. Okay. Thanks. Were the biggest group, then, numbering hundreds
20 of armed men wearing red berets, from what you could see?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And a good proportion of them, I would suggest the majority, were
23 men with local dialects, local men?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Red berets were scattered amongst the various military formations
1 answerable to various people within the town all answering to Stankovic;
2 is that what you observed?
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's a very composite question again, Mr. Jordash,
4 as many of your questions, which create more confusion than -- for
5 example, if you ask about the berets, the witness apparently understood
6 what different colours there were in the berets, whereas you intimate to
7 find something totally different.
8 Let's try to put these matters in an organised way.
9 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I'm happy to leave the question.
10 Unless Your Honours would be assisted by it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What I want to know is what I have to -- how I have
12 to understand the answers. Red Berets is apparently a way of describing
13 persons, but could also be understood as a certain thing you have on your
14 head. Now, could you tell us, the White Eagles, as you said, were
15 around. At least that was what was said. Did White Eagles have red
16 berets on their head?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard, and I say I only heard, I
18 did not see them, in Doboj. I was in Doboj only for a short period of
19 time when all that was happening, but I heard from friends and others
20 that all sorts of formations were moving about Doboj.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Did you learn anything about what kind of berets or
22 hats or whatever they had on their head? And I'm talking about the
23 White Eagles, about nothing else. Do you know how they were dressed?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Same question for Arkan's men. Did you know how the
1 people referred to as Arkan's men were dressed?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They also wore red berets.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Arkan's men had red berets on their heads?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Martic's men, do you know how they were dressed?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, you do not know what they had on
8 their heads, what they were wearing, on their heads?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Same question fors Knindzes, I understand that to be
11 the people of Knin. Do you know how they were dressed?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They also wore red berets and
13 camouflage uniforms.
14 JUDGE ORIE: They had red berets. Now, you Predrag Wolves,
15 Predrag's Wolves, do you know how they were dressed?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Red berets and camouflage uniforms.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And then I think I missed one other category which
18 was ...
19 MR. JORDASH: I think it was only the Red Berets were left,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just have a look.
22 Yes. Now, what do you know exactly about the command structure,
23 that is all these people, some of them you have not even seen, do you
24 know under whose command they were, the people that you didn't even see?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us from the groups we just mentioned
2 whether you have clear information about to whom they were subordinated?
3 Let's start again. Red Berets as a group, under whose command were they
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
6 JUDGE ORIE: White Eagles, same question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: What else do we have? Arkan's men, do you know who
9 whom they were subordinated?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Martic's men?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
13 JUDGE ORIE: What relation were they to any local commander to
14 the extent you know? I think you earlier said about a local commander by
15 the name of -- let me just check that. There were questions about -- let
16 me just check it.
17 Mr. Jordash, could you assist me, you had a name, I have
18 difficulties in finding it very quickly.
19 MR. JORDASH: Stankovic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What do you know about the command position of
21 Mr. Stankovic of these people, some of them you said you have not seen,
22 others you could describe by the uniforms? Was Mr. Stankovic in command?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, or rather, I assume that
24 if they were all billeted in the barracks where he was commander, he was
25 the commander of the town. If they were billeted in military facilities,
1 I assume that he was their commander.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You say Mr. Stankovic was in command position, they
3 were all billeted in the same premises where he was, so you assumed on
4 that basis that they were under his command?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Any information apart from that they were on the
7 same premises which makes you conclude that they were under the command
8 of Mr. Stankovic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that the complete reserve
10 force of the former military, that people from Mount Ozren
11 in the barracks. That in the former pensioners home, there were
12 Red Berets. There were several other places, for example, one across the
13 bridge, one across the road from the railway station. That's where
14 Red Berets were also billeted, but I don't know who was their commander,
15 under whose command they were.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed. I'm looking at the
17 clock. We are limited in time, but please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
18 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I hope that the questions I put to the witness now
20 leave not that much risk of confusion. Composite questions almost
21 inevitably lead to conclusion, and I very much urge you to avoid such
22 confusion. Please proceed.
23 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
24 Q. Just a few more questions, not many, from me. Just staying with
25 this transcript for a moment, can I ask you, please, to turn to around
1 page 17. And -- sorry, I beg your pardon --
2 JUDGE ORIE: I have a document 13 pages in English, and 7 or 8
3 pages in B/C/S.
4 MR. JORDASH: I'm going to try to cut it short because there is
5 another transcript, and I'm going to try to do it without the transcript.
6 Q. Can you confirm this, Mr. Witness, that at the time -- at the
7 time when you were taken out to be used as a human shield, the group that
8 was with you or forcing you to do this was -- were wearing red berets, do
9 you confirm that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the people in that group all had local accents, do you
12 confirm that?
13 A. Yes, with the only exception being the Montenegrin men,
15 Q. Thank you. Now just two issues I want to deal with. The first
16 is the man called Milosevic --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, let's try to really get the information
18 we need. And you started with one. Those people who were speaking the
19 local dialect, did you recognise them? Did you know them? One or more
20 of them?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a few of them I knew.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you know them as local people?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Out -- approximately how many of them you knew?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A couple, two.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Out of how many?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a huge group of troops.
3 There were over 100 or maybe even 150 soldiers at the place where we were
4 taken. All sorts of troops. I knew the two of them who are standing
5 next to me as we were being taken out.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, are you referring to those who were taken
7 out, or they were standing to you when your group was taken out? Let me
8 strike that question.
9 You said you knew two of them, but there was a large number of
10 troops. Now, from how many of the others you heard whether they were
11 speaking the same dialect? Did they all speak the local dialect, or was
12 it the two, or were there half of them? Could you give us approximately
13 the number of people from whom you can confirm that they spoke the local
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can say that over
16 60 per cent or 70 per cent of those whom I heard talking.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the remaining 30 per cent you have heard
18 talking, did they use another dialect, or couldn't you identify what
19 dialect they were speaking?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I could not establish that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So from all those you heard speaking, all
22 those you could identify as speaking the local dialect -- the dialect,
23 they were all speaking your local dialect?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I thought that you were seeking to
1 establish to what extent people were from the area, from the village, and
2 in focused questions you get more information, Mr. Jordash, information
3 which the Chamber certainly wishes to receive. I'm looking at the clock.
4 I am aware that I intervened a couple of times, but I did that only after
5 you had already taken your 35 or 40 minutes. How much time would you
6 still need?
7 MR. JORDASH: If I could have another five minutes, I can wrap
8 up, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then I'm looking at Mr. Stanisic as well
10 because --
11 Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Jordash would need another five minutes in
12 order to conclude his cross-examination. We were advised that it would
13 be better to stop after 75 minutes. How do you feel? Do you feel that
14 it would not be a problem for you to continue for another five minutes,
15 or would you rather Mr. Jordash to finish his cross-examination after the
17 THE ACCUSED STANISIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it's
18 better if we finish within the next five minutes rather than after the
19 break. I suggest that we should continue now. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll invite Mr. Jordash to conclude his
21 cross-examination in the next five minutes. Please proceed.
22 MR. JORDASH: Thank you. I'm going to ask please for a
23 transcript to be brought on the screen. Transcript ET 0645-4352.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
25 MR. HOFFMANN: Just for the record, I'm wondering if after these
1 lengthy discussions about that statement if that should be admitted and
2 will be tendered or not?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's use our time as efficiently as possible. We
4 know that we need longer breaks for Mr. Stanisic, we do not necessarily
5 have the same long breaks for ourselves, so all procedural matters can be
6 raised once we have, five minutes from now, have given Mr. Stanisic some
7 time for a rest. Please proceed.
8 MR. JORDASH: Could I ask, please, for a transcript to be brought
9 up on the screen. ET 0645-4352: Yes, sorry, I didn't have it on my
11 Q. Can you remember, Mr. Witness, giving evidence in the
12 Predrag Kujundzic case for the Prosecution?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I just want to -- this is, I believe, a transcript of that
15 evidence, and I want to ask you about a very specific portion of it. On
16 page 12 of the English version. And page 12 of the English version, and
17 the bit I'm interested is what happened when a man called Blaskovic was
18 present during the human-shield incident. Could you just read -- if you
19 could find the testimony where you say:
20 "Right, then. When we were being gathered, I saw him on the left
21 side, close, it was a Praga ..." Can you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I want you to read what you say -- or what is said there about
24 Blaskovic and Bjelosevic, Andrija Bjelosevic. Can you just read to
25 yourself, the conversation -- sorry, the evidence you gave about
1 Blaskovic seeking approval from somebody you think was Bjelosevic.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is it that when you gave evidence during that trial you said that
4 Blaskovic had telephoned somebody, you thought it was Bjelosevic, but you
5 didn't hear him respond; is that what you told the Court?
6 A. Andrija -- or rather, Milutin Blaskovic had a Motorola and was
7 standing next to me, or rather, next to us, who were standing in the
8 human shield, and he called Andrija Bjelosevic, who at the time was the
9 chief of the Doboj CSB
11 Q. Mr. Witness, can I just cut you down because I'm really short on
12 time, and going to be stopped, so I'm just going to stop you. Did you
13 tell the Court, though, that although you thought -- I'm para-phrasing,
14 but did you tell the Court that you thought Blaskovic had called
15 Bjelosevic to get approval for the use of the prisoners as a human
16 shield; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. But you had not heard Bjelosevic respond, you didn't hear the
19 response from the other side?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Right. That's all I want to deal with. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Oh, you have further questions.
23 MR. JORDASH: Just one last issue.
24 Q. The man, the Montenegrin, Golub, you had not seen him until the
25 12th of July; is that right?
1 A. He did not turn up in any of the camps before the 12th of July,
2 and I didn't see him, no.
3 Q. Right. When did you see him on the 12th, that was the only time
4 you saw him?
5 A. No, no. He arrived, but what I'm saying is I did not see him in
6 the hangars. And when we were brought to Percin's Disco, he arrived on
7 one occasion and maybe twice accompanied by Milan Kerkez. He told us
8 that we would stay there, he told us what we would be given by way of
9 food, just briefly, and then left. And the last time I saw him when he
10 killed Kalem.
11 Q. Well, let me just ask you to turn very quickly, and then we can
12 finish, to page 19 of the transcript and the evidence you gave at that
13 point. And the piece of evidence I'm interested in is when you are
14 talking about "Golub, Golub, then they said he was Crnogorac because we
15 don't know his name ..." Are you following this on the screen,
16 Mr. Witness?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Can you see the transcript? It's approximately the
18 middle of the page in your language, Witness.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it now.
20 MR. JORDASH:
21 Q. And you say:
22 "Golub, Golub, then they said that he was Crnogorac because we
23 don't know his name, like he is a Montenegrin."
24 And then the Prosecutor asks you:
25 "All right. Considering that you told us that you didn't know
1 him from before ..."
2 Do you see that?
3 And then turning over the page to 21 of the transcript, please,
4 to Defence counsel asking you, "You did not know if it was Golub or
5 Crnogorac; is that right?"
6 "Witness: Yes, correct."
7 And then down the page,
8 "Witness: Well, they called him Golub, then later on we realised
9 that he was Crnogorac."
10 JUDGE ORIE: Have you found that portion, Mr. Hadzovic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Have you read it?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Repeat your question, Mr. Jordash.
15 MR. JORDASH:
16 Q. Isn't it the case that you came across him on the 12th of July,
17 someone told you his name was Golub, and then later on after this whole
18 incident -- sorry, it's a composite question.
19 You came across him on the 12th of July and was told his name was
20 Golub? Or you knew his name before the 12th of July?
21 A. His own soldiers referred to him as Golub. Milan Kerkez and the
22 others. We called him Crnogorac because he had a Montenegrin accent, and
23 us inmates referred to him as Crnogorac as a result of that.
24 MR. JORDASH: That's fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Witness. No
25 further questions, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash. We'll have a break. I need
2 ten minutes after the break for some procedural matters. We will
3 therefore resume at 25 minutes past 4.00. But, Mr. Stanisic, take your
4 time until 25 minutes to 5.00, unless if you insist on following the
5 rather procedural matters which I would like to raise. We adjourn for
6 25 minutes.
7 --- Recess taken at 4.01 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.27 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, have the booths received the
10 statement on conducting cross-examination? Yes. Because the Chamber
11 would like to issue a brief statement on conducting cross-examination of
13 On the 16th of July, before the summer recess, the Chamber
14 expressed its dissatisfaction with the cross-examination of witness
15 Denona, because the questions put to the witness by the Defence counsel
16 were practically identical to questions that had already been put to the
17 witness in an earlier case, and therefore, duplicated the witness's prior
18 testimony which had already been admitted into evidence pursuant to
19 Rule 92 ter.
20 Furthermore, the Chamber stated that the Defence seemingly tried
21 to establish a point which was not disputed between the parties. The
22 Chamber also urged the parties to improve their communications with each
23 other so as to avoid such instances in the future and to focus their
24 attention on disputed matters. All of this can be found at transcript
25 pages 2037 up to and including 2044.
1 On the 17th of July, following an informal communication from the
2 Stanisic and Simatovic Defence stating that they did not wish to
3 cross-examine two witnesses scheduled for the 20th and 21st of July,
4 2009, the Prosecution informally indicated that it would no longer call
5 these two witnesses pursuant to Rule 92 ter of the Rules and indicated
6 its intention to seek admission of their evidence pursuant to Rule
7 92 bis. On the same day, the Chamber informally communicated to the
8 parties that it would admit the witness's evidence pursuant to Rule
9 92 bis of the rules, and cancelled the court sessions scheduled for the
10 20th and 21st of July, 2009. The evidence of these two witnesses,
11 Witness Josipovic and Witness C-1230, was admitted pursuant to Rule
12 92 bis of the Rules in a confidential decision on the 8th of September,
13 2009, and the public is hereby informed of it.
14 The Chamber deems it necessary at this stage to stress that it
15 did not intend to encroach on the parties' rights to effectively
16 cross-examine witnesses; to the contrary. An effective cross-examination
17 focusing on challenging the evidence given during examination-in-chief,
18 testing the witness's credibility and reliability of his or her evidence,
19 and eliciting any evidence in support of the case for the cross-examining
20 party, may be of great assistance to the Chamber. The Chamber also
21 recalls that it has an obligation under the statute and the rules to
22 ensure that the proceedings are conducted expeditiously and that court
23 time is used efficiently.
24 The Chamber welcomed the recent filings by the Prosecution of the
25 13th and 16th of November, 2009, wherein the scope of all Rule 92 bis and
1 Rule 92 ter motions was re-assessed and stream-lined. The Chamber
2 encourages the parties to further communicate and re-assess together
3 whether specific witnesses intended to be called pursuant to Rule 92 ter
4 could also be presented pursuant to Rule 92 bis without
5 cross-examination, in order to avoid a situation similar to that of
6 Witness Denona.
7 And this concludes the Chamber's statement.
8 There is one other procedural matter which I would like to deal
9 with in private session. Could we turn into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 2328-2329 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, are you ready to cross-examine the
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I am. And I can
20 say that I will need much less time than I had estimated yesterday
21 because my learned friend Mr. Jordash has already asked many questions I
22 was going to ask.
23 Good afternoon, Witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzovic, you'll now be cross-examined by
25 Mr. Bakrac. Mr. Bakrac is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
1 Please proceed.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Judge Orie has already introduced me, so I
4 needn't repeat.
5 Witness, I want to go back to a document that we saw before the
6 break and that is the evidence you gave at the cantonal court in
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the number.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the number, Mr. Bakrac.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 0645-4352. We have the Serbian or,
11 rather, B/C/S version on the screen. We are waiting for the English
12 version to appear. Could I ask the usher to call up page -- a page that
13 is not marked in Serbian, it only has an ERN number, and it's at page 18.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Once again, counsel please repeat the number.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the number again.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 0645-4368. That's for the Serbian
17 version, and it's page 18 in the English version.
18 Q. Witness, can you see that page in B/C/S?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I will now read to you the question put by the Prosecutor, and
21 you will agree with me in order to save the Trial Chamber's time that it
22 is about your being taken out from the disco; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The Prosecutor asks:
25 "All right. Could you hear communication between any other
1 groups that spoke in a different dialect?"
2 And your answer is:
3 "No. They were locals from Doboj."
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I do not see any question, I think, on
5 the relevant page which is -- which reflects what you quoted. Could you
6 check. Yes, now we have it on our screen.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can I continue, Your Honour?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it being on the screen, you can continue.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. So I repeat, you answered:
11 "No, those were people from Doboj so to say, with no accent. I
12 see they were all folks from Doboj ..."
13 Is it true that you gave such an answer?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Why when the Prosecutor asked you didn't you say that you heard
16 anybody speaking differently, say, with a Montenegrin accent?
17 A. I only heard one accent in one person, and that is the one who
18 took us out to the human shield, and he was the guy we called Crnogorac
19 because of his accent, while the others referred to him as Golub.
20 Q. Witness, since the situation is a bit different from what it was
21 because the two of us speak almost the same language. So I must ask you
22 to make -- to wait for a little bit before you give an answer to my
24 A. All right.
25 Q. While my learned friend Mr. Jordash was cross-examining you, you
1 said that you had seen in man Golub even before when the event you were
2 taken out to be a human shield?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Dealing with this document, and
5 later on I'm going to show you another, but I would like to see page
6 0645-4360. Could that page please be put up on the screen. Unless I'm
7 mistaken again, in the English version the pages are 9 and 10.
8 Q. Can you see it in front of you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Again, to cut things short, you will agree with me that here you
11 are referring to two soldiers who entered to take you out to be a human
12 shield; right?
13 A. Yes. Correct.
14 Q. And to the Prosecutor's question that follows and says:
15 "One of them -- when you say one of them was Golub, how do you
16 know the name of that person?"
17 You replied:
18 "Well, we don't know his name, but we heard people say Golub is
19 going to come and he will kill you all, unless this or that."
20 Do you agree that it was those two soldiers were the first ones
21 to say to you that some guy Golub would come to kill you unless you go
23 A. He had come on one occasion earlier once we had -- when we had
24 only just arrived in the camp.
25 Q. But a few minutes ago when my colleague was examining you, you
1 said that he came several times, now you say you came once. What is
3 A. When we were brought to that camp he came and gave a speech about
4 the conditions of our detention, that we were not to leave, and whoever
5 tried to escape, that everything was mined, and we concluded that he was
6 a Montenegrin because he spoke with a Montenegrin accent.
7 Q. Witness, you gave five statements and you never once mentioned
8 that that man Golub gave any kind of a speech when you were taken to the
9 prison. Did it -- do you remember it only now after 17 years?
10 A. But as far as I remember I mentioned that before.
11 Q. We have five of your statements, and it can't be found in any one
12 of these.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You correctly asked the witness to make a pause
14 between question and answer. I ask you to make a pause between answer
15 and question. Otherwise, your words will be lost. They cannot be
16 translated, Mr. Hadzovic, therefore, I invite you to wait for awhile
17 before answering the question.
18 Could you please repeat your last question.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. My last question was this: Mr. Hadzovic, I have six of your
21 statements before me, and I claim with full responsibility that none of
22 the six statements provided over a long period of time, starting with a
23 month after your departure from Doboj, you never mentioned once that
24 Golub made a speech and explained to you about the conditions of your
25 detention. It seems that you only remembered this after 17 years.
1 A. No, I wouldn't agree.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, you added one statement between the
3 first version of the question and the second one, Where I invite you to
4 be very precise. You said five statements, and then when you repeated
5 the question, it suddenly was six.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will be very precise.
8 Two of the statements have already been admitted, and we have three more,
9 which means a total of five statements that have been disclosed but not
10 all of them have been admitted. My learned friend Mr. Jordash used two,
11 and we also are using the transcript from the former trial.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I was not seeking a further debate on five or six,
13 but five is five and six is six.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Do you agree with me that at the cantonal court you stated that
17 you only heard about Golub when two soldiers told you that if you did not
18 come out, a certain Golub would arrive?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now go to P82. Can that be
21 displayed, please.
22 Q. Could you please look at page 6 in the English version which is
23 the same page in the B/C/S version as well. Is it correct that in the
24 statement provided to investigating Judge Safet Hadovic [phoen] said
25 about the same event:
1 "At the crossroads in Plane I noticed Milutin Blaskovic standing
2 by an APC
3 the top men in the Doboj SUP
4 me who sported a red beret. We referred to him as Crnogorac."
5 MR. HOFFMANN: I just want to clarify, I think again we are one
6 page earlier, which is page 5 in the bigger paragraph.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was unable to find the name you mentioned.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, page 6. I already
9 said page 6. And the same page in B/C/S, page 6.
10 Q. At the very top of that page --
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think I find it on page 5 numbering at the bottom
12 of the hard copy, but ...
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I believe that we are looking for
14 the following page in the English version. It should be on the next
15 page, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The page we see on our screen now at least gives the
17 text that Mr. Blaskovic standing next to an APC in the middle of the
18 page. So, therefore, unless that appears on another page as well, it
19 gives me the impression that page 5 would be the right page.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, you are right. I
21 have been able to locate the same paragraph in the middle. He was
22 standing --
23 Q. Is it true that you said to the investigating judge that
24 Blaskovic was standing next to a person whom you didn't know at all?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. And now that we have clarified that matter and now
2 that we heard when you first met that person known as Crnogorac and when
3 you first saw him --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
5 MR. HOFFMANN: I really hesitate to interrupt here and many of
6 those things may be left for re-examination, but I think the quote is
7 only half of the sentence, and again I think it's, just for the record,
8 proper to give the full sentence. It does say, he "did not know him, but
9 we called him Crnogorac."
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, this seems to be a matter which is
11 better raised immediately in cross-examination and not to wait for a
12 re-examination because it gives the full context which will be presented
13 anyhow. So, therefore, rather do it immediately. Could we then --
14 perhaps you put your next question to the witness, keeping in mind what
15 Mr. Hoffmann said.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not understand
17 whether I should go over this topic, whether I should repeat the
18 question, whether this will be raised by Mr. Hoffmann in redirect, or
19 should I move on?
20 JUDGE ORIE: You are invited to revisit the matter which is not
21 exactly the same as to rephrase the question, keeping in mind the context
22 in which the statement appears.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 Q. Mr. Witness, is it true that you said that when you had been
25 taken out to serve as a human shield, you saw an APC and
1 Milutin Blaskovic standing next to it with a helmet and automatic rifle,
2 and you said that he was one of the top officials of the Doboj SUP, and
3 you saw him standing next to a person whom you didn't know sporting a
4 red beret, whom you referred to as Crnogorac because of his accent?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it true, is it correct, that you concluded that at the time,
7 that evening when you first saw him?
8 A. He was not known to me. I didn't know who Crnogorac was. I
9 don't know. I had seen him before, but I didn't know his real name,
10 either his first name or his family name, he was unknown to me. Unlike,
11 for example, Kerkez, whom I knew or some others. I didn't know
12 Crnogorac, I didn't know who he was actually.
13 Q. Witness, you will agree with me, won't you, that if you had seen
14 him before you would have stated that Crnogorac was standing next to
15 Blaskovic as the same person who had visited the camp on several
16 occasions before, you wouldn't have stated that you knew know him?
17 A. However, I knew that he was Crnogorac, I knew that that is what
18 they called him.
19 Q. But you only heard that only subsequently from other people?
20 A. No, that's what I stated at that time.
21 Q. When was it that you saw him first?
22 A. When he was in the camp or on the day when we were brought in. I
23 saw him, but I didn't know who he was.
24 Q. Could you please describe him for us.
25 A. He was slim, dark head. He had a long scar on the face. He
1 sported a red beret. He had a pistol at his belt. He wore a camouflage
2 uniform. He was in his mid-30s. I wouldn't be able to be any more
3 precise as to his age. He was dark. He was dark-skinned and head.
4 Q. Was he slim? And how tall was he?
5 A. He was not as tall as I, he was shorter than myself, maybe
6 170 centimetres. He was slim.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 When you testified before the cantonal court in Sarajevo against
9 Predo Kujundzic, do you know who the other accused were together with
10 him? You don't have to give us their names but, rather, tell us whether
11 you know how many accused there were, and were they locals from Doboj.
12 A. When I was in Sarajevo
14 Q. Thank you. You were also telling us about watching through at
15 the disco club window and that you observed exercises going on in the
16 nearby building?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the same
19 document, page 6 in the English version, and in B/C/S the number is
21 I apologise, Your Honours, it slipped my mind that we are now on
22 P82. Can we go back to 0645 -- ET 0645-4352. That's the document I'd
23 like the Court to produce again. Page 6 in the English version,
24 Your Honours.
25 Q. When the Prosecutor asked you about the Percin disco club, the
1 question was this:
2 "What can you tell us about the facility, the Percin Disco?"
3 Your answer was:
4 "There were no windows, it was a run down disco club without much
5 going on there."
6 So what is true? Did you actually have a window to look through,
7 or is it true that that disco club did not have any windows as a
9 A. I don't know whether you ever saw that facility or not. It has
10 small --
11 Q. Witness, I'm asking you what is --
12 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may finish his answer first, and then we
13 can see whether there is any need to put further questions.
14 About the windows or no windows, could you please tell us.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were two small windows with
16 dimmed window panes, and you couldn't actually see much through those
17 windows. There was also a door, it was a glass door through which you
18 could see something, and that's the door that was our inlet of air. And
19 through that door with glass panes, you could see people doing exercise.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I'm going to
21 finish talking about this document with the following question. My
22 learned friend from Defence asked you on page 0645-4373 in B/C/S -- and I
23 believe that in the English version it is page 22, Your Honours.
24 Q. The Defence counsel asked you or, rather, faced you with your
25 statement provided to the ministry where you stated that from the
1 beginning of the war you were under house arrest, and after the actual
2 arrest, you were in the camp, and then on the 12th of July, 1992
3 were taken out to serve as a human shield and then you escaped, so you
4 did not have an opportunity to see and listen what individuals were doing
5 in Doboj. You only had some sporadic information about that. You
6 confirmed that, did you not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then you stated to the Defence counsel's question who said,
9 Very well, okay, whatever you said subsequently to the Court, whatever
10 you heard, you only heard subsequently. And you confirmed and said yes.
11 What I'm saying is that all that you heard from other people
12 subsequently after you fled?
13 A. I didn't understand your question. What subsequent information
14 are you talking about?
15 Q. Well, I'm going to put my question in the following way: The
16 presiding judge asked you about White Eagles, and you said you never saw
18 A. I didn't understand your question at first, but now I can tell
19 you that I heard that only later --
20 Q. Just a moment, just a moment, I will lead you. You said that you
21 never saw the white --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, although I do not oppose now and then to
23 interrupt a witness if he moves away from the question, we have not
24 reached that point so the witness may first finish his answer.
25 You said that you didn't understand the question at first, but
1 now you can tell that you heard that only later. Did you want to add
2 anything to that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here when I said house arrest, it
4 meant that I was allowed, not only me, but all of Doboj, that is all the
5 population of Muslim or Croatian ethnicity were allowed to be away from
6 home for three hours from 8.00 until 11.00. And for the remainder of the
7 time we were not allowed to leave our homes. That is meant by house
8 arrest. And during those three hours we were all able to see what was
9 happening in Doboj because we went shopping, if that is what you wanted
10 to hear when you asked your question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you, Witness, but let me now remind you of your statement
14 and that is P83, where you said that after you were released for the
15 first time by the local police officer, you stayed at home to guard your
16 property because there were many thefts?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So what is correct, did you stay at home to guard your property,
19 or did you go out from 8.00 until 11.00?
20 A. I had to go out to buy food to survive. How could I do that,
21 because I didn't have any provisions at home.
22 Q. But apart from that time, you sat at home and guarded your
24 A. Yes, for the rest of the time, I did.
25 Q. The presiding judge asked you about the White Eagles. I now ask
1 you whether you ever saw Seselj's men at Doboj?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have you ever seen Arkan's men?
4 A. I only heard accounts of their presence. I said as much.
5 Q. Can you ever seen Knindzes in Doboj?
6 A. I saw some men when there was the attack on Doboj when we were
7 taken out to be a human shield. Well, they may have been Knindzes.
8 Q. When you mentioned the Arkan's men, you said that they wore red
9 berets. If you had never seen them, how did you know that they were
10 sporting red berets? Is that the result of information somebody else
11 gave you later?
12 A. No, at Doboj they were considered to be Arkan's men.
13 Q. But a minute ago you said you had never seen Arkan's men, now I'm
14 asking you if you have never seen Arkan's men, how did you know how they
15 were dressed?
16 A. Well, the people when we met each other and I heard accounts of
17 them being Arkan's men, people with red berets, camouflaged in military
18 uniforms, and that they were Arkan's men, whether they were or they
19 weren't, I don't know, because there were many soldiers, a great many
20 soldiers in Doboj. I don't know who was who.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. I only have two or three short questions left
22 for you.
23 Have you heard of Mico's group in Doboj?
24 A. Yes, I heard of them.
25 Q. Was that group composed of locals?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did they also sport red berets?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 Have you heard of a group called SOS, which stands for Serbian
6 Protection Forces, from Banja Luka?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. Just a last general question for you. At the
9 beginning of your statement and at the beginning of your testimony here
10 you said that it was shocking for you in Doboj that there were SDS
11 rallies attended by Radovan Karadzic who visited Doboj. So let me ask
12 you, whether there were any rallies of SDA in Doboj?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did Alija Izetbegovic come there?
15 A. No.
16 Q. How often were they rallies of the SDA?
17 A. I wasn't a member of any parties, and I didn't go to those
18 rallies, so I don't know. But I know that the SDP party had rallies and
19 the SDS
20 Q. But I'm asking about the SDA.
21 A. Yes, certainly there were rallies of the SDA.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no more
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
1 Mr. Hoffmann, is there any need to re-examine the witness?
2 MR. HOFFMANN: Just for a couple of brief questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Hoffmann:
5 Q. Witness, I just have a few questions for clarifications to you.
6 In cross-examination today on page 4 [sic] of today's transcript you were
7 asked about the Muslim police officers that you came across when you
8 escaped from the human shield incident. My question to you is, those
9 Muslim police officers that you talk about were from the Doboj SJB, were
10 those at the time actually working in Doboj, that is in July 1992?
11 A. No. The Muslim police officers were all laid off, and there was
12 a police station at Matuzici, and that's where they were to be found.
13 Q. On page 20 of today's transcript, you were asked about, or it was
14 suggested to you that paramilitary units came under the command of
15 Stankovic. My question is to you, if you have any personal knowledge if
16 the person that you did describe as Crnogorac, if you have any personal
17 knowledge that he was personally under the command of Milan Stankovic?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Further on today at page 23 you were asked about
20 Predrag Kujundzic, and I think you have given answers to the extent that
21 he was a leader of the Red Berets, at the same time you refer to him as a
22 leader of Predrag's wolves. Can you please clarify as far as you know to
23 what unit he belonged, as far as you can tell.
24 A. Predo Kujundzic had his autonomous unit, and he was its leader,
25 and it was composed of his fellow villagers. I know very little about
1 him. I know that there was the unit, but I do know that he took us out
2 to be a human shield, and I heard accounts of terrible misdeeds of his
3 elsewhere. So they were an autonomous unit, but to what they
4 belonged ...
5 Q. I would ask that --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann, you refer to page 4 of today's
7 transcript. That was before the witness arrived. Would you agree to
9 MR. HOFFMANN: Then that must be a misspelling in the transcript.
10 I was referring to page 14.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. HOFFMANN: For the first --
13 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, it's my recollection that I
14 heard you say 4, so before -- but let's not try to see who made the
15 mistake, but let's be happy with the correction. Page 14 you were
16 referring to. Fine, please proceed.
17 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you.
18 Q. And I would ask that we quickly look again at your previous
19 statement which is now D5. Exhibit D5.
20 MR. HOFFMANN: And if we can go to the page 13 in English, which
21 I'm looking at the second last paragraph of the statement.
22 Q. Witness, if you look at that --
23 MR. HOFFMANN: I think in B/C/S we have to go back one page.
24 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, D5 is not yet in evidence.
25 That is the result of a bit unclear procedure. D4 was tendered and was
1 admitted. At the beginning of the questioning of the witness on a
2 document, Mr. Jordash asked already that a number be assigned to it, that
3 was D5, and then I said D4 is admitted into evidence, this document
4 referring to D5, let's see what happens, and then you tender it if it
5 makes sense to do so.
6 Does it make sense, Mr. Jordash?
7 MR. JORDASH: As a result of my cross-examination I would submit
8 no, because such a small amount was referred to.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which there were several references to the
10 content of that document, isn't it?
11 MR. JORDASH: There were several.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you read them all, or ...
13 MR. JORDASH: I think I read the bits that I questioned the
14 witness on. I certainly took the view at the time that the evidence that
15 the witness gave stood on its own without a need for the statement.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then there are two ways. Either you would
17 like to have it in evidence, Mr. Hoffmann, and in those circumstances
18 we'll either invite Mr. Jordash to tender it anyhow, or the number would
19 be vacated, or that you tender it, that's another possibility. I leave
20 it in your hands for the time being, and we'll check whether there's any
21 good reason to have D5 in evidence despite what you just said,
22 Mr. Jordash.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. HOFFMANN: My position would certainly be that it should be
25 tendered into evidence, because there were several references made and
1 not always, as far as I recall them, again I haven't checked now every
2 single reference, but I think there were references made without always
3 just quoting, and I think for the context it should well be admitted into
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, in order to avoid confusion it would be
6 very convenient if you would tender it, because then we would not have to
7 understand or reference to D5 being reference, really, to a Prosecution
8 exhibit. So it would be very practical if you would do it.
9 MR. JORDASH: Could I clarify one issue, Your Honour, if it's
10 tendered, is the whole document then evidence, or simply the bits we
11 referred to during questioning?
12 JUDGE ORIE: The whole document would be evidence. At the same
13 time of course we would focus on the matters raised, because it would be,
14 I would say, unfair both to the tendering party and to the witness to
15 just take for the truth of the content everything else that we find in
16 such a document. So I would say limited purposes. And if there would be
17 any other striking matter in the air, that Chamber would expect at least
18 one of the parties to draw the attention to that, and not just start
19 seeking to find anything which the parties have not even addressed,
20 unless it's very striking matter, but then it would be appropriate for
21 the Chamber to bring that to the attention of the parties as well, so
22 that they could consider either to ask the witness to be recalled or
23 whatever. But the parties should be aware that if they use a document,
24 that it is most practical in almost all circumstances that we have that
25 document in evidence.
1 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour. And I apply to tender this
2 document, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D5.
4 Then, Mr. Hoffmann, no objections, I take it. No objections from
5 Mr. Bakrac. Under those circumstances, D5 is admitted into evidence.
6 MR. HOFFMANN: Just --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, I'm certainly not
9 opposed to admitting this document, but this may be a convenient moment
10 since Mr. Petrovic and I are new to this case, in order to avoid possible
11 misunderstandings in the future, whether the documents of the first
12 Defence counsel will be marked 1D and the documents tendered by us 2D, so
13 as to avoid confusion once we start submitting documents.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is a practice which was developed in some
15 cases. In other cases it was not. We'll consider the matter. Sometimes
16 the difference is found in the number of the document on the 65 ter list.
17 For example, a 1D, a 2D, or a 3D document means that that is a document
18 uploaded by the first defendant, the second defendant, or the third
19 defendant. We'll consider it, and we'll also consult with the Registrar
20 on this matter, and then we'll finally settle this issue. Not
21 necessarily to be done at this very moment.
22 Mr. Hoffmann.
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: You may move on.
11 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. Mr. Witness, briefly in this last paragraph of your statement,
13 can you confirm that you did say in this statement to the Prosecutor's
14 Office of the state court:
15 "I did not know anything about the conduct of Predrag Kujundzic
16 and his wolves."
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And if I can take you back to page 10 of Exhibit D5.
20 MR. HOFFMANN: Page 10 in the English version.
21 Q. It's a rather long paragraph where mentioning is of Kujundzic and
22 Blaskovic. I'm not quite sure right now of the B/C/S page. Before the
23 first mentioning of Kujundzic, do you see that it says in your statement,
24 and this is referring to the human shield incident on 12 July 1992:
25 "The orders were issued by the soldier with the scar." Before
1 then it continues with: "Next to the Praga, I saw Predrag Kujundzic ..."
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us again who you refer to as the soldier with the
6 A. I referred to Crnogorac, also known as Golub as he was called by
7 others. It's one in the same person.
8 Q. Thank you. I'm done with this exhibit, and I have just one last
9 question today. At the end of the cross-examination you were asked about
10 the Mice group, that's at page 53 of today's transcript, and you said
11 that you heard about them. Do I understand from that answer that you
12 have not actually seen the Mice group?
13 A. Mico's group was established once I had escaped to the
14 Federation, but I learned from -- about them from the papers, et cetera.
15 I never saw them. I heard that the group consisted of Doboj citizens and
16 that they had committed atrocities in the surrounding areas, Teslic and
17 other places.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. HOFFMANN: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Since any after -- has the redirect examination
21 triggered any need for further cross? Not. Then Mr. Hadzovic, this
22 concludes your evidence in this court. I would like to thank you very
23 much for having answered to the questions that were put to you by the
24 parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, if you escort the witness out of the
2 courtroom. Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
3 Mr. Groome.
4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then, Mr. Usher, you are invited to escort the
6 next witness into the courtroom. No protective measures.
7 MR. GROOME: I am sorry, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's the information we received. We are talking
9 about witness C-1166.
10 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, there are no protective measures.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures.
12 Mr. Knoops.
13 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, I just remind the court we are at
14 3 hours, maybe the Court could re-assess the situation of Mr. Stanisic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I primarily focused on two sessions of one hour
16 and 15 minutes.
17 Mr. Stanisic, the next witness is about to arrive in court. We
18 could take a --
19 THE ACCUSED STANISIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- break. But let me see, we -- if we are talking
21 about three hours, we are talking about hours including Mr. Knoops, three
22 hours, I understood three hours to be three hours of time in court
23 that -- but let's ask Mr. Stanisic, because a normal court session goes
24 from quarter past 2
25 average 45 minutes breaks, a little bit more in this case, which then
1 means that four hours remain. So whether we are talking about a net
2 three hours or gross three hours is still to be considered. Mr. -- yes,
3 one second only.
4 Mr. Stanisic, we can do a few things. We can either take the
5 full five quarters of an hour for this second session, which would mean
6 approximately another ten minutes. You arrived a bit earlier than
7 expected. We also could take a break now and then continue, but if you
8 say I'd rather limit it to three hours today, then we'll adjourn for the
9 day after the next ten minutes. Another way of proceeding is to take a
10 bit of a longer break and then to spend another, well, let's say, another
11 hour in court. I would like to know what you prefer.
12 And let me be clear on one matter, it's important for this
13 Chamber that we keep clearly in mind the medical reports we received. It
14 is also important for this Chamber to carefully listen to what you tell
15 us about your ability to focus on the proceedings. When expressing this,
16 I think you should also keep in mind that short sessions may well result
17 in more days in court finally if we would spend two hours instead of
18 three hours in court, that might result being in court for a considerable
19 higher number of days.
20 So I would like to hear from you, having referred to medical
21 reports, referred to what we'd like to hear from you, and what you
22 certainly will be aware will be the result of this assessment, whether
23 you would say, well, let's go on for another 10 or perhaps 15 minutes and
24 then stop for the day, or whether you would say let's take a bit of a
25 longer break and then spend still some more time, that would be anything
1 between 50, 55 minutes. Could I hear from you?
2 THE ACCUSED STANISIC: [Interpretation] For the first time,
3 Your Honours, I have an opportunity to speak about my health condition
4 which is seriously impaired, and has been for the last ten years or so.
5 For the first day, I have been able to leave my cell after seven months.
6 I understand you and I wish to assist the Trial Chamber to work as
7 efficiently as possible. However, I was just going to ask you for a
8 break and a bit of rest because I'm indeed not feeling too good. And
9 that is why, if I may be of some assistance to you, I would like to ask
10 you to take a break now and then continue for the next 50 minutes or so
11 after the break.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So your preference is that we would have a break
13 now, that would be a break of, well, let's say, half an hour, and that we
14 would then continue to hear the evidence of the next witness for another
15 50 minutes. You think you can cope with that?
16 THE ACCUSED STANISIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I know that it is in
17 the interest of my co-accused in these proceedings for these proceedings
18 to be as efficient as possible, and that's why I'm trying very hard to
19 try and be of as much assistance as possible.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stanisic, the Chamber appreciates your
21 cooperative attitude. We'll have a break. We'll resume at 10 minutes
22 past 6.00, and then we'll after that adjourn for the day at 7.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I already asked the usher to escort the next witness
1 into the courtroom, and it's you who is going to take the witness.
2 MR. WEBER: Good evening, Mr. President. Good evening,
3 Your Honours. Adam Weber on behalf of the Prosecution. The Prosecution
4 at this time calls Marko Miljanic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and as I understand, he is on his way.
6 Mr. Weber, there is a chance since one of the judges should leave at
7 10 minutes to 7.00, that you would have only half an hour at this moment
8 because 10 minutes for 15 bis takes more time perhaps and that's a bit
10 MR. WEBER: Very well, Your Honour. I can break whenever it's
11 convenient for the Court.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Miljanic.
15 Mr. Miljanic, first of all, you are already at the door and we
16 couldn't continue at that moment, apologies for that. Before you give
17 evidence the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a
18 solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you by Mr. Usher, and
19 may I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. I solemnly declare
21 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
22 so help me God.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Miljanic.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Miljanic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Weber.
1 Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution, and he is seated to your right
2 over there. Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
3 WITNESS: MARKO MILJANIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Mr. Weber:
6 Q. Good evening, sir, could you please introduce yourself to the
7 Trial Chamber.
8 A. I will kindly ask the interpreter to speak up because I'm a bit
9 hard of hearing, please.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the volume be adjusted.
11 Mr. Miljanic, if you would have any further problem, please tell
13 Mr. Weber.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 My name is Marko Miljanic, I was born on the 12th of October,
16 1951, in Zadar.
17 MR. WEBER:
18 Q. The official records of this Tribunal include evidence that you
19 provided in the case of Prosecutor versus Slobodan Milosevic; case number
20 IT-02-54 on the 14th of July, 2003; transcript pages 24315, line 24, to
21 page 24364, line 23. And in the case of Prosecutor versus Milan Martic;
22 case number IT-95-11; on the 29th and 30th of March, 2006; transcript
23 pages 2859, line 15, to page 2931, 15.
24 Sir, do you recall giving evidence in the Milosevic and Martic
25 cases on those dates?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Have you had the opportunity to listen to your testimony from
3 both the Milosevic and Martic cases?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now that you've taken the solemn declaration in this case, do you
6 affirm the accuracy of the evidence you gave in the Milosevic and Martic
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If you were to be asked the same questions here today, would you
10 provide the same answers?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
13 the prior testimony of Marko Miljanic in the cases of Prosecutor versus
14 Slobodan Milosevic and Prosecutor versus Milan Martic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
16 MR. KNOOPS: No objection, Your Honour.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No objections.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could numbers be assigned.
19 THE REGISTRAR: The testimony from the Milosevic trial, 65 ter
20 5177, then becomes Exhibit P95. The testimony from the Martic trial,
21 65 ter 5178, and that becomes Exhibit P96.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. Did you provide a signed statement to representatives of the ICTY
24 on 26th of July, 1996?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. As part of your testimony in the case of the Prosecutor versus
2 Milosevic, did you review your 1996 ICTY statement and provide an
3 addendum to your statement dated the 19th of June, 2003?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you have the opportunity to review your 1996 ICTY statement
6 and the 2003 addendum prior to your testimony here today?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 4 of the
9 English version and page 3 of the B/C/S version of Prosecution 65 ter
10 5175. I believe we have the B/C/S versions of the document up on both
11 screens. If I could please have the page 4 of the English version on one
12 of the screens. In the B/C/S version could we please have the last
13 paragraph on that page.
14 Q. Sir, directing your attention to the last paragraph on the B/C/S
15 page before you of your 1996 ICTY statement, which is paragraph 4 from
16 the top in the English version, is the date indicated at the beginning of
17 this paragraph the correct date?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Sir, I don't know if you can see, the last paragraph which
21 "On 18th November 1996 ..." in the B/C/S version.
22 A. There's a mistake here.
23 Q. What is the correct date that should be stated in that paragraph?
24 A. The 18th of November, 1991.
25 Q. With that correction, do you affirm the accuracy of the evidence
1 you gave in your 1996 ICTY statement and the addendum of the 19th of
2 June, 2003
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. If you were asked the same questions here today, would you
5 provide the same evidence that you provided in the statement and
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. WEBER: At this time the Prosecution tenders the 1996 ICTY
9 statement, which is 65 ter 5175, and the 2003 addendum which is 5176 into
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, those documents would receive
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, those become Exhibit P97 and
14 Exhibit P98, respectively.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, any objections against admission of ...
16 MR. KNOOPS: No objections, Your Honour. As to the documents of
17 2003, Defence observes it's not signed the by the witness, the English
18 version is not signed by the witness. We have no objection to the
19 tendering of the documents of the witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think as a matter of fact the signature is
21 required under Rule 92 bis, but not under Rule 92 ter and since --
22 MR. WEBER: If I may, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. WEBER: The B/C/S version is attested to and signed by the
25 witness. It was done pursuant to the 92 bis procedure in the Milosevic
1 case. It has been attested to.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but again admission is now sought under Rule 92
3 ter, isn't it? I'm looking at the --
4 Mr. Petrovic.
5 MR. WEBER: That's correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE:
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P95, P96, P97, and P98 are admitted into evidence.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. On page 2863, lines 10 through 14 of your testimony in the Martic
12 case, you stated:
13 "I have to say, that the entire population of Skabrnja on the
14 2nd of October, 1991, after heavy bombing, had been all moved out of the
15 village. That's to say, all the population was moved out. The elderly
16 people, women, and children. The only persons left in the village were
17 men of a younger age."
18 Sir, my question is, who was committing the heavy bombing prior
19 to the 2nd of October, 1991, in Skabrnja and it's surrounding areas?
20 A. The JNA. The Yugoslav People's Army.
21 Q. Was there any bombing on the 2nd of October, 1991, near the
22 village of Skabrnja?
23 A. Yes, there was.
24 Q. Where was this bombing occurring?
25 A. Across the entire village. The village of Skabrnja
1 7 kilometres long from one end to the other, and not only Skabrnja, but
2 also the other villages in the neighbourhood were shelled.
3 Q. What type of weapons were being used during these bombardments?
4 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, maybe the Prosecution could first ask
5 whether the witness is competent to answer this question, the foundation
6 to ask the witness who is not an expert as to the type of weapons.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, but the answer is -- the question is not
8 necessarily requiring expert knowledge, although, it could appear from
9 the answer that there's reason to further explore the knowledge of the
10 witness which allows him to answer the question. Let's first listen to
11 the answer of the witness.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. Sir, what type of weapons were being used during these
15 A. I'm a former JNA officer. I knew exactly what weapons were used.
16 Those were artillery weapons, mortars and aviation. Everything possible
17 was used. All the weapons which existed at the time were used, save for
18 the navy weapons.
19 MR. WEBER: Before continuing with the next question, just for
20 counsel's reference and Chamber's reference, this witness's experience is
21 extensively discussed on page 2883 of Exhibit, now, P96.
22 Q. What type of weapons were being used by planes during these
24 A. Cluster bombs. On that day, as far as I can remember, four
25 cluster bombs were dropped. Those kinds of bombs are banned by the
1 Geneva Conventions, and there were also messages on the casings of those
2 cluster bombs.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Miljanic, may I invite you to, as you do, answer
4 the questions, but to limit your answers to what is asked. For example,
5 Mr. Weber did not ask you whether cluster bombs were banned by the
6 Geneva Convention. If he wants to know that, or if he, perhaps, doesn't
7 already. Mr. Weber at the same time I'd like you to invite you to --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- very carefully just referring to the special
10 knowledge and even if that would amount to expert knowledge, of course
11 the witness appears as a witness of fact, and therefore we should
12 primarily focus on facts. If, for example, the witness says that
13 artillery weapons, then of course that is a qualification. He mentioned
14 mortars, whether he intended to say that it was mortars and other
15 artillery weapons, mortars are often considered to be artillery weapons.
16 We should really, since he is not introduced as an expert witness,
17 wherever we come close to answers which require at least above average
18 knowledge of certain matters, that you explore the factual basis for the
19 answers. Please proceed.
20 MR. WEBER: Very well, Your Honour.
21 Q. What were the messages that were being dropped on the village?
22 A. For example, "greetings from the JNA for Tudjman's rats." Those
23 were the words.
24 Q. Approximately how many individuals stayed behind in the village
25 of Skabrnja after the 2nd of October, 1991?
1 A. About 250 people stayed on permanently.
2 Q. Who were these individuals?
3 A. They were members of the civilian protection.
4 Q. On page 24341, line 23 through page 24342, line 4, of
5 Exhibit P97, you stated:
6 "It wasn't actually a unit of any kind. And I said at the
7 beginning that we created the structure on the basis of the civilian
8 defence that existed in the former Yugoslavia
9 task of preventing fires, elemental disasters, wars to defend the
10 population, find shelter if there was a natural disaster, so that was the
11 task in aim of what -- what we were now calling and referring to as a
13 Is this an accurate description of the responsibilities of the
14 individuals who stayed behind in the village of Skabrnja
15 October, 1991?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What were the professions of the individuals who served in the
18 local civilian defence to Skabrnja?
19 A. They all had the civilian jobs. All of them but me. I was the
20 only one who was MUP employee.
21 Q. What types of jobs did these individuals have, if you could give
22 us some examples?
23 A. For example, the commander of one company was an auto mechanic.
24 The commander of another company, which was another JNA formation, was an
25 electrician. There were waiters, bricklayers, electricians, blue-collar
1 workers, and so on.
2 Q. Aside from yourself, were there any individuals that were members
3 of the civilian defence that actually had military experience?
4 A. I was the only one.
5 Q. Were the individuals that you describe as part of the civilian
6 defence in Skabrnja an active or reserve duty?
7 A. They were not members of any active formation. They were members
8 of the reserve police, if anything.
9 Q. On page 2868, lines 3 through 14 of Exhibit P96, you stated:
10 "On the 5th, The Hague
11 5th of November, 1991, when I was invited to come to Mr. Ivan Brzoja,
12 chief of the police administration, who gave me a written and verbal
13 order to the effect that The Hague
14 to provoke. I replied to this by telling him, Chief, we have nothing to
15 provoke with. Can we really provoke the air force with the rifles that
16 we have? He told me, I'm going to hold you responsible for this. You
17 are a member of the police administration. I went about my business and
18 things went back to normal, people resumed their jobs" --
19 JUDGE ORIE: You are reading, Mr. Weber.
20 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 "I went about my business and things went back to normal. People
22 resumed their jobs in the factory. However, the following day, on the
23 6th or, rather, on the following day, on the 6th, people were taken back
24 to Skabrnja on five buses and life resumed as per normal."
25 Q. Approximately how many people returned to Skabrnja on the 6th of
1 November, 1991
2 A. About 300 people on buses and an additional number in their own
4 Q. When you stated "we have nothing to provoke with" what are you
5 referring to?
6 A. We simply didn't have weapons to be able to provoke, and we had
7 no ammunition.
8 Q. What type of weapons did the civilian defence have?
9 A. As far as I remember now, we had about six machine-guns,
10 7.9 millimetres; a so-called Sorac [phoen], the German type. There were
11 two mortars with four shells; and 30 to 40 per cent, I'm not sure, of
12 hunter's rifles or sport rifles, or trophy armament from the Second World
13 War. And some half automatic rifles or assault rifles, some 20 to 30 in
15 Q. After the 6th of November 1991, you stated that things went back
16 to normal and people resumed their jobs. Did the members of the civilian
17 defence in Skabrnja also return to their regular jobs?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was the cease-fire maintained until the 18th of November, 1991?
20 A. Yes, completely.
21 Q. Could you please describe any military movements that you
22 observed between the 6th and 17th of November, 1991?
23 A. There was very little military movement in that period. I
24 personally saw Ratko Mladic passing. Only him and tanker trucks from the
25 Zemunik airfield in the direction of Benkovac and nothing more.
1 Q. Where did you observe these military movements?
2 A. On the road above Skabrnja. That's the road from Benkovac to
4 Q. Do you know what military these vehicles were a part of?
5 A. The JNA.
6 Q. Was there anything impeding the movement of these JNA vehicles
7 between the 6th and the 17th of November, 1991?
8 A. Nobody impeded them. They could move freely. Both them and
9 civilian vehicles, they all could pass freely.
10 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I'm about to go into the events of the
11 18th of November, 1991, would Your Honours like me to continue?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we have some six minutes left, if you can deal
13 with a portion in the next six minutes, then you can start. If you think
14 it's impossible to make any sense out of the next six minutes, then we'll
16 MR. WEBER: I'd be happy to continue.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, do so.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Directing your attention to the 18th of November, 1991, on page
20 2869, lines 5 through 9 of Exhibit P96, you stated:
21 "On that morning, I was sleeping in a house in the centre of the
22 village by the radio set we had. It was this ordinary police radio set.
23 The lad who was seated by the radio set, I asked him whether there was
24 anything new to report. He told me, No, Marko, there's nothing new."
25 At approximately what time did this conversation occur?
1 A. Around 7.00 a.m.
2 Q. Who were you receiving reports from at that time?
3 A. Around Skabrnja at Razovljeva Glavica, that's a hill above
4 Skabrnja, I had about 10 people in a reconnaissance group, and they
5 informed me of everything, because from that hill you could see all of
6 Skabrnja and the surrounding villages.
7 Q. Did you have the ability to communicate with anywhere else
8 besides this reconnaissance group?
9 A. No, or, rather, yes, but only through messengers. And at that
10 place I also had a field telephone set.
11 Q. At this time were any members of the civilian defence on duty in
13 A. Yes, there were.
14 Q. Approximately how many?
15 A. I can't give an exact number but around 100 in the whole village.
16 Q. Where were these members of the civilian defence stationed?
17 A. In the whole village, I remind you that the village is
18 7 kilometres long, and they were stationed throughout the village.
19 Q. On page 2869, lines 9 through 19 of Exhibit P96, you stated:
20 "At about 7.30 tanks could be heard from the direction of
21 Benkovac. At that point since I had people at Razovljeva Glavica, which
22 is an elevation above Skabrnja standing guard, one of the men there
23 informed me over the field telephone line that the tanks were arriving,
24 also from the direction of Gornje Zemunik, the airport there. I had
25 three couriers of mine and I sent them to inform the civilians to flee to
1 their shelters and to take their positions above the village. At that
2 point, that was about 7.30, I don't recall the exact time, fierce
3 artillery fire was opened upon the village from tanks and artillery
4 pieces. The entire village was ablaze."
5 Who opened fire on the village with tanks and artillery?
6 A. The JNA did. Whether there was anybody else with them, but
7 certainly the JNA because they all these types of armaments.
8 Q. Where is Gornje Zemunik located in relation to Skabrnja?
9 A. To the north-west of Skabrnja.
10 Q. Approximately how far?
11 A. 600 to 800 metres.
12 Q. What is the distance between Razovljeva Glavica and the centre of
14 A. About 200 metres as the crow flies.
15 Q. Did you have the opportunity to mobilise all 240 plus members of
16 the civilian defence in Skabrnja prior to the commencement of this tank
17 and artillery attack?
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I'm looking at the clock. If it would be
20 one or two questions, fine, but if it would be more, then I would invite
21 you to interrupt.
22 MR. WEBER: If I may ask one more question.
23 JUDGE ORIE: One more question, please.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Did the three couriers have the opportunity to inform the
1 civilians to flee to their shelters prior to the JNA forces attacking
3 A. Yes, they did.
4 Q. They did prior to, before, the attack?
5 A. During the attack, once the attack had started.
6 Q. And, sir, my question was whether or not the couriers had the
7 ability to inform the civilians before the attack?
8 A. I don't understand the question, but once the attack had started,
9 then they were sent out to inform the people, once they started shelling
10 the village.
11 Q. Is it fair to say, then, that they were not informed beforehand?
12 A. No, they weren't.
13 MR. WEBER: I can break there, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
15 Due to an extraordinary schedule, Mr. Miljanic, we'll resume only
16 next week. I don't know how this is arranged. I take it that the
17 witness will stay over, but I'm not fully informed about that. But we
18 will continue to hear your evidence only in one week from now, that is on
19 the 8th of December in the same courtroom in the afternoon.
20 Any other matter to be raised before we ...
21 Then, Mr. Miljanic, I instruct you that you should not speak with
22 anyone about your testimony, whether that's testimony you have given
23 already today or testimony which is in the statement or in the
24 transcripts of the other cases, or whether it's about testimony still to
25 be given.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's clear.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Starting next week. We adjourn, and we'll resume on
3 Tuesday, the 8th of December, quarter past 2.00, Courtroom II.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.54 p.m.
5 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of
6 December, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.